But covering that 20-60" gap it can move especially with 90" degree. Turn 1 that's pretty much impossible. If nothing else necron can move along his own DZ. Frankly never seen being destroyed by enemy models ever. Just moving off board. And never ever on turn 1. Turn 3-4 maybe.
Sure, i want my night scythe flying in my own DZ up to turn 2/3, to keep it safe Dude, its supposed to fly into enemy territory and teleport your units in your opponents face. A smart opponent knows this, and will position his units accordingly. I had my xiphon interceptor killed twice that way.
Played a couple games running mellee crons. They look pretty good so far.
Spoiler:
Novokh.
3 destrolords - one with a +1 to save, another one with a +d3 attack scythe.
Transcendent ctan
3x5 tesla immortals
10 lychguards with scythes
2 nightscythes
So far, it was victorious. It basically has answers to most meta lists. It chops knights apart with a weight of scythes and a couple mortal wounds from a ctan. It's really annoying to deal with for gunlines -especially for plasma gunlines as the only things they an shoot at are tesla immortals in the backfield or flyers. It also does ok against enemy mellee due to relatively high touvhness.
It does lack in volume of attacks for basically anything other than lychguard and a relic scythe lord. So, you got to really place your lychguard well and not just drop them unsupported. They WILL die if the enemy has the opportunity to throw some shots in their direction. So, you got to choose tbe best position for them.
Other than that, i think it's a very good 1500 list for maelstorm.
koooaei wrote: Played a couple games running mellee crons. They look pretty good so far.
Spoiler:
Novokh.
3 destrolords - one with a +1 to save, another one with a +d3 attack scythe.
Transcendent ctan
3x5 tesla immortals
10 lychguards with scythes
2 nightscythes
So far, it was victorious. It basically has answers to most meta lists. It chops knights apart with a weight of scythes and a couple mortal wounds from a ctan. It's really annoying to deal with for gunlines -especially for plasma gunlines as the only things they an shoot at are tesla immortals in the backfield or flyers. It also does ok against enemy mellee due to relatively high touvhness.
It does lack in volume of attacks for basically anything other than lychguard and a relic scythe lord. So, you got to really place your lychguard well and not just drop them unsupported. They WILL die if the enemy has the opportunity to throw some shots in their direction. So, you got to choose tbe best position for them.
Other than that, i think it's a very good 1500 list for maelstorm.
You never had both your night scythes killed turn one?
And supporting your lychguard, does that mean running the destro lords up to meet them as soon as possible? They might not make it all the way for another turn or two.
And what about schaff - what if the AM gunline has 60 guardsmen (his brigade) bubble wrapping his tanks?
But covering that 20-60" gap it can move especially with 90" degree. Turn 1 that's pretty much impossible. If nothing else necron can move along his own DZ. Frankly never seen being destroyed by enemy models ever. Just moving off board. And never ever on turn 1. Turn 3-4 maybe.
Sure, i want my night scythe flying in my own DZ up to turn 2/3, to keep it safe Dude, its supposed to fly into enemy territory and teleport your units in your opponents face. A smart opponent knows this, and will position his units accordingly. I had my xiphon interceptor killed twice that way.
This is indeed a worry, remember you can't just zap away in any direction across the board, suddenly you 're in a corner and can't turn 90 degrees and make your 20" move next turn.
Also you want to make bring your guns to bear, its not making its points back if its flying away out of range for a couple of turns before it can turn around and come back.
I played a game with 3 Doom Scythes against AM (that stratagem rocks!), luckily I went first and boxed him in, but it was hard to plan ahead to have them be able to make their move, and keep their guns in range (24" isnt too long)
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Arachnofiend wrote: It's a 1500 point list, all of those things are less of an issue than they would be at 2000 points.
The scythes simply will not die to movement turn 1 as someone else suggested earlier. The length of movement and turn allows basically the whole board in front of the scythe as potential spots to be, along with the fly rule (which again an earlier poster didn't seem to understand) allowing you to pass over terrain a models.
Second or third turn when you're deep into the board, that's another story.
Also, often overlooked by players is that I can fly a Scythe 1 inch away from a support character turn 1 that isn't properly wrapped and drop 8 Tesla shots on them... Now if only Tesla Destructor shots did anything...
koooaei wrote: Played a couple games running mellee crons. They look pretty good so far.
Spoiler:
Novokh.
3 destrolords - one with a +1 to save, another one with a +d3 attack scythe.
Transcendent ctan
3x5 tesla immortals
10 lychguards with scythes
2 nightscythes
So far, it was victorious. It basically has answers to most meta lists. It chops knights apart with a weight of scythes and a couple mortal wounds from a ctan. It's really annoying to deal with for gunlines -especially for plasma gunlines as the only things they an shoot at are tesla immortals in the backfield or flyers. It also does ok against enemy mellee due to relatively high touvhness.
It does lack in volume of attacks for basically anything other than lychguard and a relic scythe lord. So, you got to really place your lychguard well and not just drop them unsupported. They WILL die if the enemy has the opportunity to throw some shots in their direction. So, you got to choose tbe best position for them.
Other than that, i think it's a very good 1500 list for maelstorm.
You never had both your night scythes killed turn one?
And supporting your lychguard, does that mean running the destro lords up to meet them as soon as possible? They might not make it all the way for another turn or two.
And what about schaff - what if the AM gunline has 60 guardsmen (his brigade) bubble wrapping his tanks?
All i have is game results. One game was vs an ig list with 120 guardsmen, 5 basylisks and a ton of characters. Lychguards managed to find a place cause he had to move forward to score eventually. And planes ate a lot of fire. But i played a bit too much on the safe side and only charged 2 basylisks. Killed them in one go. Must have charged at least 3. But was afraid of overwatch a bit too much. Anywayz, ctan was amazing with his mw spam. And lords bogged down a lot of guards and ate a ton of fire. So, managed to outscore.
Another game was vs another necron player - more shooty oriented. He indeed killed 2 scythes in one go - but it was turn 2 and lychguards managed to wreck his gunline anywayz. Of course with a help of lords and ctan.
I think you're looking at things more pessimistic than needed. If someone brings a list capable of wrecking 2 scythes turn 1 from across the board, it usually means he's running an extremely shooty and most likely immobile list. In which case you just run around and score midboard. He won't be able to place a foot out of his dz before at least turn 4. By which time you must have scored enough and can go into hiding mode.
But covering that 20-60" gap it can move especially with 90" degree. Turn 1 that's pretty much impossible. If nothing else necron can move along his own DZ. Frankly never seen being destroyed by enemy models ever. Just moving off board. And never ever on turn 1. Turn 3-4 maybe.
Sure, i want my night scythe flying in my own DZ up to turn 2/3, to keep it safe Dude, its supposed to fly into enemy territory and teleport your units in your opponents face. A smart opponent knows this, and will position his units accordingly. I had my xiphon interceptor killed twice that way.
You start in the back corner of your deployment zone at a 45degree angle. Other start at the opposite edge, if running 3, that one is dead center. The rest of the army dead center ready to move up.
You can then modify the flight paths and either go right up the edges where no one deploys, or angle so that you are able to go right where you are going to deploy next turn. After that, it is just a matter of moving to where you need to be to get line of sight for the guns. If the opponent is moving to block the flight paths, they are not moving to get ground based objectives.
As for the Xiphon, I run one in my Chaos army, you do not even need to get near the enemy deployment zone with the long range of those weapons (48 and 60). Plus, the extra 90 degree turn at the end of movement, you could fly in back and forth in a straight line just behind your own deployment zone...
koooaei wrote: Played a couple games running mellee crons. They look pretty good so far.
Spoiler:
Novokh.
3 destrolords - one with a +1 to save, another one with a +d3 attack scythe.
Transcendent ctan
3x5 tesla immortals
10 lychguards with scythes
2 nightscythes
So far, it was victorious. It basically has answers to most meta lists. It chops knights apart with a weight of scythes and a couple mortal wounds from a ctan. It's really annoying to deal with for gunlines -especially for plasma gunlines as the only things they an shoot at are tesla immortals in the backfield or flyers. It also does ok against enemy mellee due to relatively high touvhness.
It does lack in volume of attacks for basically anything other than lychguard and a relic scythe lord. So, you got to really place your lychguard well and not just drop them unsupported. They WILL die if the enemy has the opportunity to throw some shots in their direction. So, you got to choose tbe best position for them.
Other than that, i think it's a very good 1500 list for maelstorm.
You never had both your night scythes killed turn one?
And supporting your lychguard, does that mean running the destro lords up to meet them as soon as possible? They might not make it all the way for another turn or two.
And what about schaff - what if the AM gunline has 60 guardsmen (his brigade) bubble wrapping his tanks?
All i have is game results. One game was vs an ig list with 120 guardsmen, 5 basylisks and a ton of characters. Lychguards managed to find a place cause he had to move forward to score eventually. And planes ate a lot of fire. But i played a bit too much on the safe side and only charged 2 basylisks. Killed them in one go. Must have charged at least 3. But was afraid of overwatch a bit too much. Anywayz, ctan was amazing with his mw spam. And lords bogged down a lot of guards and ate a ton of fire. So, managed to outscore.
Another game was vs another necron player - more shooty oriented. He indeed killed 2 scythes in one go - but it was turn 2 and lychguards managed to wreck his gunline anywayz. Of course with a help of lords and ctan.
I think you're looking at things more pessimistic than needed. If someone brings a list capable of wrecking 2 scythes turn 1 from across the board, it usually means he's running an extremely shooty and most likely immobile list. In which case you just run around and score midboard. He won't be able to place a foot out of his dz before at least turn 4. By which time you must have scored enough and can go into hiding mode.
Going with the pessimist argument again? Really?
Guys, this is the player that thinks Grey Knights are fine and thinks Crowe is good, all on top of defending Mutilators last edition. You can safely ignore their opinion.
Mr Whiner can have his own opinion. I got results, shared them, here you come again projecting your overwhrlming negativity and denying the results for no good reason other than sadomasochistic satisfaction of being surrounded by the 'everything is bad' aura.
Anywayz, that's what i've got from mellee crons:
Novokh lychguards are dead killy but fragile. They're amazing if you can get them into position and avoid part of the enemy fire. Can do it for example with scythes and fast characters.
Ctan is good. Fragile, once again, but he's a toolbox. Can provide some counterplay against any list. Mellee damage is pretty meh though. No re-rolls and just 4 attacks are not that great. But overall a nice unit.
Destroyer lords are also good. Quite tough and fast. Also lack killing power but d3 attack relic helps a bit.
Army lacks cp cause you do want to fight twice with lychguards and reroll failed charges or crytical rolls, and save some for resurrection of your characters, and get some extra relics...but can't have it all unfortunately.
While that would help, I think they need codes, and thus the ability to benefit from...basically any strategems, or they need their own specific code of some sort. Not sure what form that takes.
I've had 0 success with Praets so far. Wraiths just surpass them in durability many times over.
I thought running 3 DLords + lychguard, and even 2 night scythes was a refreshing take on things. Nothing is bringing is to the final tournament tables anyway
But covering that 20-60" gap it can move especially with 90" degree. Turn 1 that's pretty much impossible. If nothing else necron can move along his own DZ. Frankly never seen being destroyed by enemy models ever. Just moving off board. And never ever on turn 1. Turn 3-4 maybe.
Sure, i want my night scythe flying in my own DZ up to turn 2/3, to keep it safe Dude, its supposed to fly into enemy territory and teleport your units in your opponents face. A smart opponent knows this, and will position his units accordingly. I had my xiphon interceptor killed twice that way.
That was on the super rare case 60" doesn#t get you anywhere else safe. That would have been hard for my 243 model ork horde...what army a) gets 1st turn b) fills board so badly you cant fly off. On horizontal that's like 72"x36" covered up completely...good luck.
Seriously show how you kill 3 necron filiers t1 that way. If it's so easy for experienced player as been claimed show it. Talk is cheap.
koooaei wrote: Mr Whiner can have his own opinion. I got results, shared them, here you come again projecting your overwhrlming negativity and denying the results for no good reason other than sadomasochistic satisfaction of being surrounded by the 'everything is bad' aura.
Anywayz, that's what i've got from mellee crons:
Novokh lychguards are dead killy but fragile. They're amazing if you can get them into position and avoid part of the enemy fire. Can do it for example with scythes and fast characters.
Ctan is good. Fragile, once again, but he's a toolbox. Can provide some counterplay against any list. Mellee damage is pretty meh though. No re-rolls and just 4 attacks are not that great. But overall a nice unit.
Destroyer lords are also good. Quite tough and fast. Also lack killing power but d3 attack relic helps a bit.
Army lacks cp cause you do want to fight twice with lychguards and reroll failed charges or crytical rolls, and save some for resurrection of your characters, and get some extra relics...but can't have it all unfortunately.
Any casual results for a casual meta doesn't matter. It doesn't bring anything to the table for us to actually discuss. You think we couldn't figure out Lychguard rerolling their hits kinda helps them? Well guess what? They require so much help going into melee they aren't worth it.
The main point of this thread is to figure out how to beat the top armies. So we should be discussing on how to counter Space Wolves instead of the post you made.
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iGuy91 wrote: I know some brave soul was running a Necron Army with a Pylon at the Invitational at NOVA. Not sure how far he got with it.
They can average a kill against a Knight sometimes, but screening them is pretty important. Outside the mandatory Scarabs maybe minimum Immortals? Do you have the list?
There is a batrep of a guy bringing 30 foot lychguards to a large tourney and winning 80% games.
I think that it shows you can't just label something bad and than deny any evidence of it being the opposite. Well...you could but you'd end up being some sort of zealot.
koooaei wrote: There is a batrep of a guy bringing 30 foot lychguards to a large tourney and winning 80% games.
I think that it shows you can't just label something bad and than deny any evidence of it being the opposite. Well...you could but you'd end up being some sort of zealot.
Most of the reports here are games nobody cares about.
Seriously show how you kill 3 necron filiers t1 that way. If it's so easy for experienced player as been claimed show it. Talk is cheap.
I didnt say T1.
Well I have been talking about T1 killing 3 fliers like was claimed so why are you claiming I'm wrong when I'm specifically refering to T1 killing 3 night scythes that was claimed to be possible for "experienced player".
Frankly T2 kill will generally require necron player screw up as well or opponent investing huge amount of resources and putting his forces off. And even then not many armies can do that. IG, orks, tyranids. And only orks have reliably army that suits for the task. Though still generall too slow to really do it.
Well I have been talking about T1 killing 3 fliers like was claimed so why are you claiming I'm wrong when I'm specifically refering to T1 killing 3 night scythes that was claimed to be possible for "experienced player".
I didnt say an experienced player can kill 3 night scythes T1. I said he can do it in one turn.
Frankly T2 kill will generally require necron player screw up as well or opponent investing huge amount of resources and putting his forces off. And even then not many armies can do that. IG, orks, tyranids. And only orks have reliably army that suits for the task. Though still generall too slow to really do it.
Orks with da jump are too slow to really do it ? IG with move move move order cant do it ? Tyranids with genestealers that can run 90" cant do it ? Pretty much every army can deepstrike, denying the flyer(s) space to go to.
Yes. They are not that good. Their durability sucks for their cost. They damage is pretty good but it's not broken (and other things are).
Just like Mephrit. It sucks as well. Just like I've said ALL ALONG. However it turns out ALL Necrons suck rofl. Since this is from 201 lists, which means only 1.5% of the top lists is Necrons. And they're ALL running vaults.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Yes. They are not that good. Their durability sucks for their cost. They damage is pretty good but it's not broken (and other things are).
Just like Mephrit. It sucks as well. Just like I've said ALL ALONG. However it turns out ALL Necrons suck rofl. Since this is from 201 lists, which means only 1.5% of the top lists is Necrons. And they're ALL running vaults.
Well i wasn’t participating in those discussions but i was reading them and I would more or less agree destroyers are squishy and def. not OP (as some voices suggest to up them because they are broken)
Nether liked Mephrit either. Trap dynasty thats it (worst win % of the dynasties)
EDIT: Funny thing is when people complain about destroyers being OP „they cant just kill 200points in one shooting phase this is too much“ I just remind them a full squad costs 300poins plus a CP to do this haha
rvd1ofakind wrote: Yes. They are not that good. Their durability sucks for their cost. They damage is pretty good but it's not broken (and other things are).
Just like Mephrit. It sucks as well. Just like I've said ALL ALONG. However it turns out ALL Necrons suck rofl. Since this is from 201 lists, which means only 1.5% of the top lists is Necrons. And they're ALL running vaults.
Mephrit Deathmarks have some kick, but yeah they're one of the weaker sub factions.
Mephrit tomb blades arent bad either. Doesnt matter what gun they have. They are fast, getting within half weapon range isnt hard, and they can still shoot after falling back, still within half weapon range, when they get charged.
p5freak wrote: Mephrit tomb blades arent bad either. Doesnt matter what gun they have. They are fast, getting within half weapon range isnt hard, and they can still shoot after falling back, still within half weapon range, when they get charged.
Also lets you go all cheap with the beamers and still pack some punch with -1 to that S6
It just occured to me. The RP rule could get changed very easily in the FAQ. Since it is only "Reanimation Protocols" and not a full rule on datasheets.
I would love for such a quick fix. And they could make RP a lot more balanced by just doing what they did in Kill Team. When a necron model loses its final wound, roll a d6. On a 5+ the model is not removed and instead regains all wounds lost earlier in the battle.
Crypteks add a +1 to this roll as per normal. Maybe have Resurrection Orbs be a single use of RP as it works now.
It would be like a slightly worse Disgustingly Resilient, but buffable. And it would solve the two main issues of RP not scaling and the opponent being able to negate it.
Oh yes, make the Necrons feel like deathguard +1. That totally won't ruin their most recognizable gimmick and make them dull That thing was already done. It was called 7th edition. And it was crap. Not crap in the sense that it wasn't effective, crap in the sense that it was so boring and killed how the army felt.
Say what you will, the OG fall down-get back up mechanic, while flavourful and nice, simply doesn't work in 8th and never will. Everything is just too killy in comparison to earlier editions, and your units will inevitably be wiped.
Alternatively, RP could be split up into two separate rules; Repair and Reanimation Protocols. Let repair be a rule that actually makes your units more survivable, such as a -1 to wound rolls made against them, and have RP function as it currently does except only be a once per game per unit type of deal. That way you would have to be tactical about when to use your RP, and Resurrection Orbs would be a lot more worthwhile.
In my opinion, though, I don't think that the feelgood of having a flavourful RP outweighs the massive feelbad of it being unbalanced and trash.
I disagree. It can work by simply permitting a wiped unit to roll. There are two things that can be configured to permit this - Resurrection orbs and spyders.
The former is to give a legacy item a reason for being taken. The latter is a nod to how spyders worked in 3rd ed.
There's also other forms of damage mitigation such as debuffs, defensive bonuses, etc.
RP doesn't work right now because GW did a terrible job at handling it and misunderestimated how effective it would be. They thought it would be strong on its own, when every army bar necrons right now have rules and equipment that support each other as well as their gimmick, something necrons don't have. The cryptek +1 aura is pathetic, for example. Its only 3" range when other armies have 6" auras. 8th ed is about buffs and auras, something necrons lack. RP isn't the problem, the entire army is poorly designed.
RP is definitely part of the problem though. The closer to being wiped a unit is the more powerful it becomes, forcing you to take max units to get anything out of it. Persistant auras that remove that weakness means that your army is literally unkillable as long as your spyders/res orb lords are still alive. This in turn would promote a playstyle of castling up around such characters, restricting the already slow necron army's movement even further.
Buffing the defensive capabilities of necrons to ensure they don't get wiped in one turn wouldn't be very effective either. Such a buff would surely incur a points hike, which would mean our offensive capabilities in relation to points efficiency would be inadvertently shafted. We'd get an almost unkillable army, sure, but we wouldn't do much in return either.
RP is an unbalanced ability because it is too strong while simultaneously having too significant a weakness. Simply removing the weakness therefore won't solve the problem, just create a new one.
I agree that necrons need an overhaul because nothing synergises with anything else, our transports are a mess etc., but RP as it is now is not fine either.
Whilst it clearly doesn't work now, I would rather it not work, and still feel iconic, than be turned into another "FNP" roll that doesn't match the feel of a *repairing* army, and simply turns them into another *tough* army.
Let's hope for a fix that is both balanced and fitting with lore, rather than throwing out all semblance of lore to simply make numbers more happy.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I disagree. It can work by simply permitting a wiped unit to roll. There are two things that can be configured to permit this - Resurrection orbs and spyders.
The former is to give a legacy item a reason for being taken. The latter is a nod to how spyders worked in 3rd ed.
There's also other forms of damage mitigation such as debuffs, defensive bonuses, etc.
RP doesn't work right now because GW did a terrible job at handling it and misunderestimated how effective it would be. They thought it would be strong on its own, when every army bar necrons right now have rules and equipment that support each other as well as their gimmick, something necrons don't have. The cryptek +1 aura is pathetic, for example. Its only 3" range when other armies have 6" auras.
8th ed is about buffs and auras, something necrons lack. RP isn't the problem, the entire army is poorly designed.
I second this. Not being able to RP when the whole squad is wiped doesn't make much sense anyway and is one of the big reasons why RP is so bad in 8th.
Spiders would alsol become a lot more interesting outside of vehicle-heavy lists which is something I would appreciate.
I actually really like how RP works with models able to roll each round, it's very fluffy. Given how poorly it works right now however, and how brutally strong and resilient other armies are in 8th, the easy fix would be to simply remove the rule stating you can't roll if the unit is wiped out. It wouldn't make us OP - in fact we still wouldn't be the most durable army even.
I'd even go as far as making the Res Orb reanimate a full squad without rolling - of course only one use per game.
RP ist a bad rule, its need some fine tuning though. l feel like a 2 CP stratagem to reanimate a destroyed unit is a good idea. Can only be used once per destroyed unit per game. Also the re-roll 1s when reanimating stratagem for 2CP should be +1 to the roll.
Cynista wrote: I actually really like how RP works with models able to roll each round, it's very fluffy. Given how poorly it works right now however, and how brutally strong and resilient other armies are in 8th, the easy fix would be to simply remove the rule stating you can't roll if the unit is wiped out. It wouldn't make us OP - in fact we still wouldn't be the most durable army even.
I'd even go as far as making the Res Orb reanimate a full squad without rolling - of course only one use per game.
I probably know about 10 people who would literally kill themselves rather than play against that lol. Hell, they barely even want to play against my necrons the way they are now, because they feel RP makes fighting them unsatisfying.
Besides, that would definitely make us OP. The further the game progresses and the more diminished the opposing army becomes, the more models we'll be getting back. That could literally make us unbeatable, in the hands of a competent player.
All of this discussion is very off topic, but my $0.02 anyway:
Change rp to only be rolled for models taken in the last turn, but let you roll for units that have been wiped.
Simple leave your models on their side when they are killed in your opponents turn and roll for them in your turn.
This will simultaneously nerf and buff rp, keeping it fluffy and different from fnp.
Ideally the rp roll would happen at the end of the necron move phase so you can move a Spyder or cryptek into range, but that's slightly more problematic.
Since you already have to take into account models most to morale this isn't anymore book keeping. Just leave models on the table for a 'between' phase. Simples.
Cynista wrote: I actually really like how RP works with models able to roll each round, it's very fluffy. Given how poorly it works right now however, and how brutally strong and resilient other armies are in 8th, the easy fix would be to simply remove the rule stating you can't roll if the unit is wiped out. It wouldn't make us OP - in fact we still wouldn't be the most durable army even.
I'd even go as far as making the Res Orb reanimate a full squad without rolling - of course only one use per game.
No. Allowing a wiped squad to come back should only be through another unit or item. It shouldn't be the default, as it would make necron units effectively unkillable. Free resurrections for a wiped from a res orb would similarly be too strong.
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MrPieChee wrote: All of this discussion is very off topic, but my $0.02 anyway:
Change rp to only be rolled for models taken in the last turn, but let you roll for units that have been wiped.
Simple leave your models on their side when they are killed in your opponents turn and roll for them in your turn.
This will simultaneously nerf and buff rp, keeping it fluffy and different from fnp.
Ideally the rp roll would happen at the end of the necron move phase so you can move a Spyder or cryptek into range, but that's slightly more problematic.
Since you already have to take into account models most to morale this isn't anymore book keeping. Just leave models on the table for a 'between' phase. Simples.
I'm cool with that. The current system has a bit too much book keeping, as you always have to keep track of total losses. It was simpler in 3rd and 5th ed; if a model fails a roll its gone. That simple.
A simple change would be to change how the res-orb works. "Once per game, after all models in a unit would be been removed, immediately make a resurrection protocols roll for all models in that unit."
This means that an enemy can still focus down a single unit, but they're going to have to try much harder. It makes RP worth their points in every game regardless of size, since you can scale the number of res-orbs.
Hey, im readying myself for a 1750p tournament. I'll be facing Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines and Tyranids. Two games against each.
Here's my Nephrek list, 8cp total:
Battalion
Overlord with voidreaper
Cryptek with chrono
20x Warriors
10x Tesla Immortals
10x Tesla Immortals
Nightbringer
Fast Attack detachment
Cryptek with chrono, solar staff
6x Destroyers
6x Wraiths
3x scarabs
So here's my thinking. Nephrekh means cryptek will go 11'' every turn, buffing Destroyers RP and giving them 5++ against shooting, giving them a bit more staying power against the hail of plasma I know im facing. Tyranid is bringing Exocrine for example.
The idea is that i'll have one blob of infantry with overlord and cryptek in middle and flank with wraith rushing forwards, destroyers behind, wrapping Nightbringer and Cryptek inside, unleashing the c'tan shard when the timing is right.
Nephrekh also means Immortals are more mobile and I can use CP to hide units in deep-strike.
I also know that big bad tyranid monsters are going to come swooping down on me, so the voidreaper means my overlord hits and wounds on 2+ if they get to close, just as the nightbringer does.
Had a majory victory over Space Wolves yesterday with a Sautekh battalion. While my list performed quite well, I felt that it would have performed even better as Mephrit.
I never used the 'advance and gain assault weapons' or 'move freely with heavy weapons' part, used Methodical Destruction once (it was okay, but it left me starving for CP) and even the Sautekh Warlord Trait only brought me back one CP.
Wheras with Mephrit, my damage output would have greatly increased on several occasions. Also, I feel like the auto-pass morale one is really the only decent WL trait, even if you aren't taking Warriors. You still can deny one power.
Sautekh is good for it's characters and for buffing immortals up to +2 to hit.
As for characters:
Orikan is good if you're running blobz. He also becomes a mini-ctan later on in the game. All for not much more over a regular cryptek. He's ok in mellee for the price.
Imotekh is a bit too expensive but he's decent in midsized and large games if you' re bringing immortal blobz. His once per game mw lightning ain't half bad.
Zahndrekh is trolltastic. He can buff your infantry but more importantly, he can turn off all auras from an enemy character. Now, here's a fishy part. The description of what an aura exactly is...well, it's quite poorly worded. Long story short, knight's explosion is an aura. Apotrecarian's healing/resurrection ability is an aura. Superheavy vehicle Might be an aura depending on how you rule it out. But some effects that seem to be working like an aura are not an aura. Like relics that buff stuff around the bearer or warlord traits.
Anywayz, this character is great in large games. And can occasionally be amazing.
Upcoming 1750 ITC tourney and I've gone for a very mobile Neprekh Novokh soup force. Play is mainly to throw the wraiths up the board while dropping one destroyer blob each in turns 1 and 2 using the VoD and the strat. Immortals are there to objective hold and get to where they need to be with Nephrekh while Scarabs provide a high wound screen against alphas and smite. Destroyer Lord there for anti tank and potentially put out some high damage on a Knight/Shadowsword etc.
Looks interesting, fast. Don't count on the destroyer Lord to do much anti tank damage. Not sure what to use him best for, you already have the wraiths doing the CC bit. Perhaps plung the DLord into shooty infantry to keep them from firing, or fire warriors and the like. He'll easily recover from the few overwatch wounds he suffers.
Upcoming 1750 ITC tourney and I've gone for a very mobile Neprekh Novokh soup force. Play is mainly to throw the wraiths up the board while dropping one destroyer blob each in turns 1 and 2 using the VoD and the strat. Immortals are there to objective hold and get to where they need to be with Nephrekh while Scarabs provide a high wound screen against alphas and smite. Destroyer Lord there for anti tank and potentially put out some high damage on a Knight/Shadowsword etc.
Strangely enough I was just contemplating posting up a nephrekh/novokh list built on the same premise and fairly similar. I think yours is really strong if a bit spammy on good stuff. My concept swaps some wraiths for lych's and a few more funsies. Still attempting to justify a stalker in there lol.
Anyway I really don't see the reason for gauss immortals and I'd also suggest breaking those scarabs into 3 units.
The destroyer lord is pretty badass but actually you get better mileage from voidreaper and crimson haze (77% of the time its the same number of HITS as EM does 33% of the time.. if that makes sense, plus its AoE and 3 wounds each). Anyway in this list I think implacable conqueror is a must have even though part of me would really like crimson haze.
Edit- just something to kick around.. I know it breaks the symmetry but consider dropping 1 destroyer and 2 scarabs and changing the chrono in for a cloak = 88 pts counting whats already left. With these you can swap the Olord for a CCB with lightning field = 82 (78 with tesla if you really want the chrono). Now his MWBD is 27" radius and you go from a meh support character to one of the most durable tarpit bullet catchers around. This guy should come in very handy at a tournament whereas the other dude not so much. The drawback is of course losing 1 destro but you don't actually lose any gauss cannons just a body and your list gains in wounds and flexibility.
Thanks!
Reason for using that Dlord as a beat stick with that combo of relics and strats is because the meta I play in is very guard/knight heavy and the Dlord would put out 5-7 s8 (dispersion field +1s) attacks -4ap 2dmg, rerolling all hits and wounds. Statistically about 9 wounds on T8 and can use 3cp to fight again if a knight needs to die. If the list doesn't include much T7/T8 stuff, can always change the warlord trait to crimson haze to buff the wraiths with more attacks or endless will to make him hard to kill. All in all, think for 131 pts, the potential for damage is pretty good, like a slightly less flexible version of a BA Smash Captain.
The Command Barge idea is super interesting, had thought the overlord mainly as a tax for HQ and to buff the occassional unit - but it adds another threat in the list which I like. I usually throw a VoD cryptek in all my list for a turn 1 destroyer bomb but I'll test it out, thanks!
Im attending a small 1k touney this saturday and Id lile to bring my necrons with me to it.
Ive build two lists, one focusing more on troops and the other on mobilty.
Ill probably see some (2-3 knight lists) and/or Aeldari but we only play 3games so theres a chance ill never have to play them.
Other than that we have a pretty diverse representation of the armies.
Id like to know your ideas on those lists
Im only bringing models I have rn PLUS they HAVE to be painted so Ill have to pass on my TVault (I wont get it done till Saturday)
Spoiler:
List1 Troop Heavy - just spread out on the board and take obj. (you get 4points if you hold one for EACH round and EACH obj.)
Didn't they change the Knight rule so they can fall back from swarms when the codex was released? I don't have the book myself so I can't verify but I thought I heard about that.
I think at 1000 points the troop heavy list should be quite solid. Nephrekh should be the dynasty, it lets you deep strike the destroyers and ensure they shoot first and gives your otherwise very slow warrior blobs a nice boost in mobility for when you need it.
Arachnofiend wrote: Didn't they change the Knight rule so they can fall back from swarms when the codex was released? I don't have the book myself so I can't verify but I thought I heard about that.
I think at 1000 points the troop heavy list should be quite solid. Nephrekh should be the dynasty, it lets you deep strike the destroyers and ensure they shoot first and gives your otherwise very slow warrior blobs a nice boost in mobility for when you need it.
I would charge him with the bikes...As my thinking was in a 1k list there maybe 2 knights? (probably only one with CP battery).
Bikes have fly and are not infantry nor swarm. Surrounding him with them and he cannot escape what could save my destroyers for maybe one round...
Attended a 7 person tournament with some weird houserules, you can DS T1 but you cannot pile into units you didn't get within 1" of during the Charge phase, the player going first gets -1 to hit on the first turn, this does not affect tesla but it does affect dark reapers, you can only bring one model worth more than 450 pts. I thought people would be bringing Knights so I took a Pylon and a lot of units with fly.
Short summaries of games, 3 games to get to the final all narrowly won, 1 bonus game that I easily won, and a final match I lost big.
Spoiler:
Game one had a mission involving capturing and holding objectives and involved a bonus for capturing an objective your opponent had controlled earlier in the mission. I played against a Chaos Daemon list with 180 melee infantry and some characters. I deployed everything except my Pylon and my Ghost Ark on a couple of ruins with no room for my opponent to charge them. I slowly ground my opponent's army down before using the Veil of Darkness around T4 to go out and capture objectives. I lost a Ghost Ark and my opponent had 1 Herald of Nurgle left at the end.
Game two I didn't get any points for, it was the same mission but against a noise marine spam list with three sonic dreadnoughts. I lost a Doomsday Ark and a unit of Destroyers and removed his entire army.
Game three was about killing units and randomly generated objectives and had some special rules which dealt damage to units inside ruins. I played against a Guilliman gunline with a Dreadnoughts, Sicarians all with a bunch of heavy bolters and backed by three units of scouts. My opponent had some dreadnoughts and a sicarian left I had my Pylon and my Warlord left. Warlord used Veil of Darkness to get back behind my Pylon which I had deployed in the corner of the board. I narrowly won on objectives.
Game four was about killing units and holding two objectives which were randomly chosen from 6 objectives at turn 3. I played against Ynnari with only Craftworld units I won with a Doomsday Ark controlling one of the objectives in my back and a Ghost Ark which ended the lives of a unit of Rangers and took the other one on the last turn. My opponent had a couple of wounded nightwings, the Ynnari psyker, a single Dark Reaper, 2 Rangers and the Ranger HQ.
Game five was about killing units and randomly generated objectives. I lost against an AM/AdMech gunline with Celestine and a unit of Crusaders. I only managed to destroy a single Basilisk turn one which made the kill game impossible for me. I was playing very aggressively in fear of my opponent getting too much value from random objectives. Not really sure what I should have done, perhabs not shoot my Pylon at a model with a 5+ invul, that's just how it goes.
Ghost Ark was actually pretty amazing for protecting my Warlord, I'm still not sure what to make of that.
Pylon was gak, much regret. The Knight player who I had anticipated cancelled last minute and nobody else saw fit to take any truly juicy targets for it. I'll replace the Pylon with a Tesseract Vault and maybe cut one of the Doomsday Arks and the Ghost Ark so I can fit more Destroyers and some Tomb Blades in the list.
torblind wrote: Does the Sautekh warlord get to regenerate CPs if he's in a transport?
No. I only had 4 CP though so I tried to avoid using them when he was in and tried using them more when he was out, you're going to end up not using CP even when you really want to anyways because you run out quickly, so saving a few isn't so bad, we're talking running out of CP turn 4 instead of turn 2. I'm not sure if the Sautekh WL trait is the best for this army it had very little value some games, but if you get another 2 CP then it's huge because 4 really isn't enough to do what you want to do, between re-rolls for the Pylon and Extermination Protocols. Is 12 overkill? Not really, CP are really nice and Tesla Immortals are great against a lot of things, I was just concerned with T1 DS among other things which turned out to be reasonable.
I've been doing some math and the question is, how many destroyers are to many destroyers? 12? 24? I mean the cost 50p each, but nothing kills like them and with cryptek support they got mad staying-power.
Wraiths are more expensive, but I'm not sure they are worth their points, seeing as you have to use CP to reanimate lost wraiths, but not Destroyers?
Boreal wrote: I've been doing some math and the question is, how many destroyers are to many destroyers? 12? 24? I mean the cost 50p each, but nothing kills like them and with cryptek support they got mad staying-power.
Wraiths are more expensive, but I'm not sure they are worth their points, seeing as you have to use CP to reanimate lost wraiths, but not Destroyers?
Well.. different tasks. Wraiths mathwise don't make their points back in pure destruction, that doesn't mean they aren't worth it.
They would take fire that would otherwise take down the destroyers for once.
Arachnofiend wrote: Didn't they change the Knight rule so they can fall back from swarms when the codex was released? I don't have the book myself so I can't verify but I thought I heard about that.
I think at 1000 points the troop heavy list should be quite solid. Nephrekh should be the dynasty, it lets you deep strike the destroyers and ensure they shoot first and gives your otherwise very slow warrior blobs a nice boost in mobility for when you need it.
On fallback they can but if scarab don't engage the knight then knight is locked in place. So at least that way he can lock. No help if he wants to charge them though. (personally I find it odd how grot in combat is no problem walking over but heaven forbid if he's standing 1.1" at which point it could be 20" tall wall for movement...But that's the rules)
Edit. Well albeit bit harder vs knights where you likely need to be 3.1" away or they heroic interve you
Wraiths are super meta dependent. They're great at their job about 80% of the time, but if you happen to be fighting any Chaos army then you might as well not even deploy them because that's how fast they're going to die. Death Hex is reaaally good...
Arachnofiend wrote: Wraiths are super meta dependent. They're great at their job about 80% of the time, but if you happen to be fighting any Chaos army then you might as well not even deploy them because that's how fast they're going to die. Death Hex is reaaally good...
I don't think I've ever successfully denied the witch. And I used to play Thousand Sons for a while...
Seriously though, expecting to deny Death Hex is... optimistic. You're gonna have to get a 9 at the very least, which is far from easy. And chances are the number will be higher than that because it'll be Ahriman using the Cabal of Sorcerers stratagem casting it.
Its worth a try. Rolling a 9+ isnt impossible. There are other factions with death hex similiar powers, like null zone, there is probably more, i dont know.
I mean yeah, obviously you try it, I'm just saying that you're not going to consistently protect your wraiths from that spell. If you run wraiths, and you manage to deny death hex 1 out of 4 games, then that's 3 games you lost because you spent a bunch of points on wraiths.
Denying Death Hex is going to be unlikely in any event as your Wraiths are likely to be far away from any unit with a Gloom Prism or a warlord with Immortal Pride.
Still, they tend to be MVPs for me; not because they slaughtered anything but because they were resilient enough to tie up a chunk of his army for 2+ turns, reducing incoming firepower and giving my units room to establish board control.
Destroyers are very good, but your opponent will target them. If they're not out of LoS first turn, or in the Translocation Crypt if you're Nephrekh, they're going to get pasted.
Arachnofiend wrote: Wraiths are super meta dependent. They're great at their job about 80% of the time, but if you happen to be fighting any Chaos army then you might as well not even deploy them because that's how fast they're going to die. Death Hex is reaaally good...
Necrons can deny the witch.
Only if you take a specific warlord trait or a unit that's easy to shoot down. And you only have one chance in either case with no bonuses. In all of the games I take anti-psy, I pass on average...0 times. Its not that effective. Necron anti-psy is just pathetic for a race who won a war against a psychic race. They should be the faction that gaks on psykers the hardest.
Its very easy for tsons. Magnus has +2 to psychic powers, re-rolling 1s. And they have a stratagem giving +2 to psychic powers. Thats only a 4 to roll, re-rolling 1s. Pretty much an auto pass. Ahriman gets +1 to psychic powers, with stratagem +3.
Only if you take a specific warlord trait or a unit that's easy to shoot down.
A tomb sentinel or stalker isnt easy to shoot down.
Last time i played against tsons my wraiths failed to kill a tzaangor shaman and ahriman. Two demon princes, ahriman, tzaangor shaman and magnus simply smited the from the battlefield, no need for death hex. Magnus alone did 9 MW, rolling a 10, with +4, for 2D6MW killing 3 wraiths. Its ridiculous that tsons are exempted from the +1 smite penalty, pretty much every HQ unit is a psyker, with all their bonuses to psychic powers, smite is an auto pass for them.
Its very easy for tsons. Magnus has +2 to psychic powers, re-rolling 1s. And they have a stratagem giving +2 to psychic powers. Thats only a 4 to roll, re-rolling 1s. Pretty much an auto pass. Ahriman gets +1 to psychic powers, with stratagem +3.
Only if you take a specific warlord trait or a unit that's easy to shoot down.
A tomb sentinel or stalker isnt easy to shoot down.
Last time i played against tsons my wraiths failed to kill a tzaangor shaman and ahriman. Two demon princes, ahriman, tzaangor shaman and magnus simply smited the from the battlefield, no need for death hex. Magnus alone did 9 MW, rolling a 10, with +4, for 2D6MW killing 3 wraiths. Its ridiculous that tsons are exempted from the +1 smite penalty, pretty much every HQ unit is a psyker, with all their bonuses to psychic powers, smite is an auto pass for them.
Not everyone can afford or has access to Forge World models. And that still doesn't change the low success chance.
Well, I've played Necrons in the 6th and 7th editions. They were fun to play also in tourneys. But the new codex gives me a headache since the point costs of models and units went up in most cases. I've come up with the following list at the 1500 pt level.
A tomb sentinel or stalker isnt easy to shoot down.
To be honest they kind of are. Lack of invul save hurts them badly. Mine usually dies the turn after it arrives. I still love using it though, great model
A tomb sentinel or stalker isnt easy to shoot down.
To be honest they kind of are. Lack of invul save hurts them badly. Mine usually dies the turn after it arrives. I still love using it though, great model
Yeah, aren't they only something like T7 with 8 wounds and a 3+ armor save? That's not too hard to kill, especially with heavy weapons.
A tomb sentinel or stalker isnt easy to shoot down.
To be honest they kind of are. Lack of invul save hurts them badly. Mine usually dies the turn after it arrives. I still love using it though, great model
Yeah, aren't they only something like T7 with 8 wounds and a 3+ armor save? That's not too hard to kill, especially with heavy weapons.
Yeah, they're like a Dreadnought. A 200 point Dreadnought.
A tomb sentinel or stalker isnt easy to shoot down.
To be honest they kind of are. Lack of invul save hurts them badly. Mine usually dies the turn after it arrives. I still love using it though, great model
Yeah, aren't they only something like T7 with 8 wounds and a 3+ armor save? That's not too hard to kill, especially with heavy weapons.
Yeah, they're like a Dreadnought. A 200 point Dreadnought.
They would love to have quantum shielding, other FW models have
wuestenfux wrote:I've come up with the following list at the 1500 pt level.
Exchange one cryptek for an overlord, its a must have if you have tesla immortals. MWBD on them will let you hit on 2s and tesla will explode on 5+. Nihilakh isnt good. Destroyers can already re-roll 1s, wraith dont benefit from it, scarabs cant shoot. Warriors and immortals will probably have to move to get within 24", again no benefits for them. With nephrekh you can deepstrike destroyers, and immortals/warriors/scarabs for 1 CP each. With the veil you can move around the battlefield, shifting your forces somewhere where your opponent is weak.
Better anti-psy is one of my two biggest wishes for Necrons in the future, along with a return to multiple Cryptek options (the Cloak option being a step in the right direction at least). But instead, the only new thing I've seen was that new Forgeworld knight-scale Tomb Stalker thing...
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I've played Necrons in the 6th and 7th editions. They were fun to play also in tourneys. But the new codex gives me a headache since the point costs of models and units went up in most cases. I've come up with the following list at the 1500 pt level.
Any opinions how to improve this list? I liked to run multiple units of Wraiths but they got a severe pt increase.
I'd stick with a single unit of Canoptek Wraiths, I'd imagine you'll get more options to use the Nihilakh Strat on them if you don't also have a second unit sitting around waiting to take all the shooting. I'd say taking two Crypteks is a bad idea, I'd rather play for the chance at having units benefit from a secondary aura instead of just having a backup, so I'd take a Lord.
I'm going to assume you know that Nihilakh is bad and you've decided to play them anyway. Switching the Gauss Blasters for Tesla Carbines on your Immortals is a must, they're one of the few units that benefit from the Nihilakh code. I think your list has too much anti-infantry so I'd take fewer troops if I were you, but that depends on your local meta. Doomsday Arks are amazing, pts are much better spent on those rather than Warriors. I'd probably cut the Scarabs, they're really nice but you're not really playing to your dynasty's strengths and you have your Wraiths to zone and pressure already.
If you want to spam Wraiths you'll want to play Nephrekh for the T1 charge and general mobility or Novokh for the increased damage output. If you want to stick with your current list you'll probably do better with Mephrit or Sautekh depending on the kinds of lists you face.
Forgot to list my 2k ITC game I lost against a big Knight/Shadowsword list with my Pylon no Troops list. Shadowsword infiltrated, I got first turn, did nothing to the Knight because it had a 3+ invul, killed some insignifigant stuff. Shadowsword killed my Pylon, Knight killed the rest. At least my actual tournament games went better, this player was probably better than most of the attendees at the tournament (including me), only practice game I had with my army and I regret not doing more because I think I would have trashed the Pylon eventually.
I won a casual 2k Eternal War game against Orks by surrender with my Orikan Balance list, he was ahead on objectives early but because of some failed charges and bad rolls he didn't kill a single unit and slowly got wiped. My list felt a little too good for a casual game against Orks, but I'm not really sure how to lose against them except by intentionally making a trash list.
Spoiler:
73 Models Sautekh Battalion (5) 8 CP 1996
1 Lord (hyperphase sword) {Veil of Darkness} 76
1 Orikan the Diviner {Hyperlogical Strategist} 115
A tomb sentinel or stalker isnt easy to shoot down.
To be honest they kind of are. Lack of invul save hurts them badly. Mine usually dies the turn after it arrives. I still love using it though, great model
Yeah, aren't they only something like T7 with 8 wounds and a 3+ armor save? That's not too hard to kill, especially with heavy weapons.
Yeah, they're like a Dreadnought. A 200 point Dreadnought.
Dreadnoughts pay 120 pts for a Drop Pod to DS. If we assume that the body of the pod is worth less than 80 pts since it can't shoot or attack then we're not getting an unfair deal in comparison. Hopefully, a lot of deep strike units get price reductions to compensate for the beta rules and the fact that many of them weren't OP to begin with. Also, if you get 7 additional wounds with living metal then it's actually twice as durable as a Dreadnought
wuestenfux wrote:I've come up with the following list at the 1500 pt level.
Exchange one cryptek for an overlord, its a must have if you have tesla immortals. MWBD on them will let you hit on 2s and tesla will explode on 5+. Nihilakh isnt good. Destroyers can already re-roll 1s, wraith dont benefit from it, scarabs cant shoot. Warriors and immortals will probably have to move to get within 24", again no benefits for them. With nephrekh you can deepstrike destroyers, and immortals/warriors/scarabs for 1 CP each. With the veil you can move around the battlefield, shifting your forces somewhere where your opponent is weak.
This is all solid advice. I'd additionally suggest taking the immortal pride WL trait to keep your troops fearless. It makes them a headache to remove, and generally i find my opponents under-estimate the firepower needed to remove them, or overestimate, and have crazy overkill. That, and with Wraiths on the table, they always inevitably for me end up being target #1 for my opponent.
Also, fun side note for Nephrehk Wraiths, they auto advance 6 inches, meaning they move 18 inches when advancing, and with the Adaptive Subroutines Strategem, can get turn 1 charges against forward units very easily. I've found it pretty fun and reliable.
Nihilakh wraiths have one thing going for them, you can give them 2++ with the stratagem. I've been meaning to try that once just for the hilarity of it.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Maybe it has a huge gloom prism, that gives every psyker within 24" a fatal heart attack.
Ok, most likely not, but that would be hilarious.
"That's a nice Magnus you got there" *moves the necron LoW a little closer*
"Aaaand he's dead"
Nah, bonuses to perils is more of a Chaos Deamons thing.
I'd rather see something like; unit with an enhanced gloom prism gains +1-2 to his deny the witch test.
Or maybe on a massive gloom prism; this unit gains x to his deny the witch test, and if the result is higher than x, the psyker cannot use the denied power for x turns/rest of the game.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Maybe it has a huge gloom prism, that gives every psyker within 24" a fatal heart attack.
Ok, most likely not, but that would be hilarious.
"That's a nice Magnus you got there" *moves the necron LoW a little closer*
"Aaaand he's dead"
Nah, bonuses to perils is more of a Chaos Deamons thing.
I'd rather see something like; unit with an enhanced gloom prism gains +1-2 to his deny the witch test.
Or maybe on a massive gloom prism; this unit gains x to his deny the witch test, and if the result is higher than x, the psyker cannot use the denied power for x turns/rest of the game.
No, I don't mean perils. I mean an actual instant death.
Basically, necron anti-psy is sooo good that it just kills psykers. Oh, and the new gloom prism is like 10 pariahs taped to each other.
wuestenfux wrote:I've come up with the following list at the 1500 pt level.
Exchange one cryptek for an overlord, its a must have if you have tesla immortals. MWBD on them will let you hit on 2s and tesla will explode on 5+. Nihilakh isnt good. Destroyers can already re-roll 1s, wraith dont benefit from it, scarabs cant shoot. Warriors and immortals will probably have to move to get within 24", again no benefits for them. With nephrekh you can deepstrike destroyers, and immortals/warriors/scarabs for 1 CP each. With the veil you can move around the battlefield, shifting your forces somewhere where your opponent is weak.
This is a good idea. I'll definitely do it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
koooaei wrote: Nihilakh has a benefit of giving you access to 2++ wraiths
This is quite a nice buff.
In 6th and 7th ed, I played 3x 5 Wraiths in 2000 pt lists at the competitive level, very hard to remove.
But Wraiths are now too expensive for my liking (37 vs. 55 pts).
koooaei wrote: Nihilakh has a benefit of giving you access to 2++ wraiths
For 2CP. It's bad.
Nihilakh got the short end of the stick for sure.
Well, the doomsday ark interaction is neat. But yeah, in general Nihilakh isn't great.
I'm still disappointed there's no Empire of the Severed trait. Don't tease a necron player with mentioning a rogue dynasty run by a insane AI and then not deliver. That's a dick move
Would using the save boosting strategem...increase the effectiveness of the invuln bubble created by a chronometron?
...asking for a friend.
It does, sort of. The +1 Save only applies to the unit in question that meets all of the stipulations:
The unit did not move at all during it's turn or is within 3" of an objective marker
AND
The Unit is within 3" of the cryptek.
If this is a gimmick you want to get the most of, there is the warlord trait to extend your warlords abilities by 3", so make the cryptek your warlord and you now have a 6" bubble.
back to original question, yes, you roll your saves and then add +1 to them. if you roll a 4, you add +1 and it becomes a 5 and you pass.
p5freak wrote: Thrall of the silent king only extends the crypteks technomancer ability.
where do you find this limitation?
In the description of the warlord trait.
I have my stuff packed away since we're moving, doesn't it specifically mention only the 10" move ability of the canoptek cloak and nothing else?
Here is the relevant snip of the trait:
"...only increase the range of that model’s Technomancer ability, not that of all other CRYPTEKS in your army. If a Cryptek with a Canoptek cloak has this Warlord Trait, this does not affect the distance"
p5freak wrote: Thrall of the silent king only extends the crypteks technomancer ability.
where do you find this limitation?
In the description of the warlord trait.
I have my stuff packed away since we're moving, doesn't it specifically mention only the 10" move ability of the canoptek cloak and nothing else?
Here is the relevant snip of the trait:
"...only increase the range of that model’s Technomancer ability, not that of all other CRYPTEKS in your army. If a Cryptek with a Canoptek cloak has this Warlord Trait, this does not affect the distance"
Ah.
I realise this will be a case for the YMDC, but they specify that it affects the ability of this particular cryptek, not that ability of other crypteks (whos abilities have the same name, and a general increase of that ability could be said to affect any models with said ability)
If they meant to "only increase the Technomancer ability, no other abilities", they wouldn't have said "not that of all other crypteks". To me this has no bearing on other abilities.
p5freak wrote: Thrall of the silent king only extends the crypteks technomancer ability.
where do you find this limitation?
In the description of the warlord trait.
I have my stuff packed away since we're moving, doesn't it specifically mention only the 10" move ability of the canoptek cloak and nothing else?
Here is the relevant snip of the trait:
"...only increase the range of that model’s Technomancer ability, not that of all other CRYPTEKS in your army. If a Cryptek with a Canoptek cloak has this Warlord Trait, this does not affect the distance"
Ah.
I realise this will be a case for the YMDC, but they specify that it affects the ability of this particular cryptek, not that ability of other crypteks (whos abilities have the same name, and a general increase of that ability could be said to affect any models with said ability)
If they meant to "only increase the Technomancer ability, no other abilities", they wouldn't have said "not that of all other crypteks". To me this has no bearing on other abilities.
Its a warlord trait, and it says
"Increase the range of all abilities on your warlords datasheet by 3".......If a cryptek has this warlord trait, only increase the range of that model’s Technomancer ability, not that of all other CRYPTEKS in your army. If a Cryptek with a Canoptek cloak has this Warlord Trait, this does not affect the distance....".
The writing of this warlord trait is ridiculous. First they say to increase the range of all abilities, and later they restrict it. And how can it affect other crypteks ? Its a warlord trait, these normally only affect the warlord. How can "Increase the range of all abilities on your warlords datasheet by 3"." affect other crypteks ?? I only have one warlord cryptek. For me the word "only" limits thrall of the silent king to the technomancer ability only.
p5freak wrote: Thrall of the silent king only extends the crypteks technomancer ability.
where do you find this limitation?
In the description of the warlord trait.
I have my stuff packed away since we're moving, doesn't it specifically mention only the 10" move ability of the canoptek cloak and nothing else?
Here is the relevant snip of the trait:
"...only increase the range of that model’s Technomancer ability, not that of all other CRYPTEKS in your army. If a Cryptek with a Canoptek cloak has this Warlord Trait, this does not affect the distance"
Ah.
I realise this will be a case for the YMDC, but they specify that it affects the ability of this particular cryptek, not that ability of other crypteks (whos abilities have the same name, and a general increase of that ability could be said to affect any models with said ability)
If they meant to "only increase the Technomancer ability, no other abilities", they wouldn't have said "not that of all other crypteks". To me this has no bearing on other abilities.
Its a warlord trait, and it says
"Increase the range of all abilities on your warlords datasheet by 3".......If a cryptek has this warlord trait, only increase the range of that model’s Technomancer ability, not that of all other CRYPTEKS in your army. If a Cryptek with a Canoptek cloak has this Warlord Trait, this does not affect the distance....".
The writing of this warlord trait is ridiculous. First they say to increase the range of all abilities, and later they restrict it. And how can it affect other crypteks ? Its a warlord trait, these normally only affect the warlord. How can "Increase the range of all abilities on your warlords datasheet by 3"." affect other crypteks ?? I only have one warlord cryptek. For me the word "only" limits thrall of the silent king to the technomancer ability only.
I agree with misleading wording.
As it first stands, it says to increase all abilities on the datasheet by 3". Technomancer is a such ability and is now increased by 3". Other crypteks also have this ability and rule as written they would now also have extended auras. The limitation them corrects that.
I agree that no such correction should be necessary, a Warlord has his abilities extended. Of course that affects the model only.
Ok they wants to make extra sure there is no doubt, but in the process introduces other uncertainties as they fail to mention the invul save aura, and they could be read as to imply that only TechM is affected.
Legal Reading time: The exception on the Technomancer trait is actually necessary. The Technomancer ability for some reason says it applies to ALL Crypteks; that is to say each Cryptek grants each other Cryptek the aura. So without the Warlord trait's specific exception, your Warlord Cryptek would grant every other Cryptek the extended aura, because one of the warlord's abilities is an aura from every other model.
As for whether the warlord trait includes the Chrono, I'd read the emphasis as: "only increase the range of THAT MODEL's technomancer ability," not "that model's TECHNOMANCER ability"
Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote: Legal Reading time: The exception on the Technomancer trait is actually necessary. The Technomancer ability for some reason says it applies to ALL Crypteks; that is to say each Cryptek grants each other Cryptek the aura. So without the Warlord trait's specific exception, your Warlord Cryptek would grant every other Cryptek the extended aura, because one of the warlord's abilities is an aura from every other model.
As for whether the warlord trait includes the Chrono, I'd read the emphasis as: "only increase the range of THAT MODEL's technomancer ability," not "that model's TECHNOMANCER ability"
This ability needs special mention because reasons, other abilities not mentioned and not forgotten
Did anyone notice that you actually can roll RP for warriors three times per turn ? First you do your regular RP roll (before your turn begins), then immediately after that, you do it with a res orb or orb of eternity (still before your turn begins), and then a third time with a ghost ark. The ark says you cant do it in the same turn you used a res orb. But, RAW, either orb is used before your turn begins (note the wort immediately). Your turn begins with the movement phase, when you start moving your models. Battle primer, pg. 3 : "Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to." The movement phase is the first phase of your turn, before that your turn has not started.
p5freak wrote: Did anyone notice that you actually can roll RP for warriors three times per turn ? First you do your regular RP roll (before your turn begins), then immediately after that, you do it with a res orb or orb of eternity (still before your turn begins), and then a third time with a ghost ark. The ark says you cant do it in the same turn you used a res orb. But, RAW, either orb is used before your turn begins (note the wort immediately). Your turn begins with the movement phase, when you start moving your models. Battle primer, pg. 3 : "Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to." The movement phase is the first phase of your turn, before that your turn has not started.
Isn't RP done beginning of turn? How is that not the same turn?
p5freak wrote: Did anyone notice that you actually can roll RP for warriors three times per turn ? First you do your regular RP roll (before your turn begins), then immediately after that, you do it with a res orb or orb of eternity (still before your turn begins), and then a third time with a ghost ark. The ark says you cant do it in the same turn you used a res orb. But, RAW, either orb is used before your turn begins (note the wort immediately). Your turn begins with the movement phase, when you start moving your models. Battle primer, pg. 3 : "Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to." The movement phase is the first phase of your turn, before that your turn has not started.
Isn't RP done beginning of turn? How is that not the same turn?
It is, yes; even the Res. Orb says "at the beginning of your turn" in regards to having rolled for RP. The Eternity Orb does not, but since it's the same as the Res. Orb--immediately after rolling for RP--and RP is still in the turn sequence, it doesn't really matter.
I realize this is OT, bit I'm a bit at a loss here: Does anyone have a spare C'tan from the Tesseract Vault available for sale?
If you can point me to a bitz store that is selling one, that would be appreciated as well. I'm not too keen to drop 130 bucks for the whole thing when I don't need half of it.
p5freak wrote: Did anyone notice that you actually can roll RP for warriors three times per turn ? First you do your regular RP roll (before your turn begins), then immediately after that, you do it with a res orb or orb of eternity (still before your turn begins), and then a third time with a ghost ark. The ark says you cant do it in the same turn you used a res orb. But, RAW, either orb is used before your turn begins (note the wort immediately). Your turn begins with the movement phase, when you start moving your models. Battle primer, pg. 3 : "Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to." The movement phase is the first phase of your turn, before that your turn has not started.
Isn't RP done beginning of turn? How is that not the same turn?
It is, yes; even the Res. Orb says "at the beginning of your turn" in regards to having rolled for RP. The Eternity Orb does not, but since it's the same as the Res. Orb--immediately after rolling for RP--and RP is still in the turn sequence, it doesn't really matter.
Yes, true. My fault, its at the beginning of your turn not before your turn begins. But, i believe you can use the orb after the ghost ark. Which would allow you to reanimate your warriors three times in one turn. When you use the ghost ark the unit hasnt been a target of the orb. The orb happens in the future, not in the past.
p5freak wrote: Did anyone notice that you actually can roll RP for warriors three times per turn ? First you do your regular RP roll (before your turn begins), then immediately after that, you do it with a res orb or orb of eternity (still before your turn begins), and then a third time with a ghost ark. The ark says you cant do it in the same turn you used a res orb. But, RAW, either orb is used before your turn begins (note the wort immediately). Your turn begins with the movement phase, when you start moving your models. Battle primer, pg. 3 : "Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to." The movement phase is the first phase of your turn, before that your turn has not started.
Isn't RP done beginning of turn? How is that not the same turn?
It is, yes; even the Res. Orb says "at the beginning of your turn" in regards to having rolled for RP. The Eternity Orb does not, but since it's the same as the Res. Orb--immediately after rolling for RP--and RP is still in the turn sequence, it doesn't really matter.
Yes, true. My fault, its at the beginning of your turn not before your turn begins. But, i believe you can use the orb after the ghost ark. Which would allow you to reanimate your warriors three times in one turn. When you use the ghost ark the unit hasnt been a target of the orb. The orb happens in the future, not in the past.
Unfortunately not, since the Ark's rule happens at the end of the movement phase, well after RP/Res. Orb resolution.
EDIT: You may, however, be able to use the Orb of Eternity, since it doesn't specify the Res. Protocols at the start of the turn like a regular Orb does. RAW, this would allow you to use it after the RP rolls the Ark triggers, but it's an incredibly fringe usage.
1st match was against a valiant, 2armigers and one dragoon.
If it wasnt for my wraiths the matches would have ended much earlier.
The sheer amount of fire power they took from my other units was amazing.
While the enemy was focusing them i scored objectives.
My destroyers died the turn after theyve been deployed.
Still the match ended 29 - 20 for him as after the wraiths have been eliminated he just flushed through my army.
2nd game was against a necron list.
This is the match where I scored a lot of points. My list just was superior to his and he had a lot of poor roles on his side. Unlucky for him.
The tombblades just did magic against his Immortals (Tesla AND Gauss) and even crippled his HDestroyers.
3rd match was against knights. Same list as the first but instead of valiant just a regular knight with avenger gatling canon and skitarii as battalion troops.
This was a stomp. The field we played on had ZERO terrain and so everything was in the open for his weapons. It didnt help that he was „THIS GUY“...denying me RP because I have forgotten about it and just moved one/two bikes therefore „skipping“ the RP phase...“moving“ his armigers through places where they didnt fit through by picking them up and just placing them where they have „moved“ and some gifted inches while meassuring...telling me destroyers were soooo strong and wraiths too and complaining about them being a pain in the ass...EDIT: he had no chance to become 1st 2nd or 3rd placed but still insisted on destroying all my units as he „needed the poins“...moving his knight 10“ and AFTER moving him up the 10“ he rotated him vertically so he gets LOS and some extra inches...PLUS it was a friendly tourney.
All in all I can say I hate Knights...They need to be nerfed into oblivion. Its just ridiculous...They have literally NO weakness. They are tuff, they have quality AND quantity shooting, they are strong in melee and they are mobile as hell AND they have some very strong stratagems..
Its just no fun to play against a death maschine where you know if you havent tailored your list youve lost.
my mvps were the wraiths by far. Not because of their killing power but because theyre so hard to shift with the 3++.
Unit im still not sure about is the Dlord. If he gets those 6es he probably is going to kill almost whatever he charged. If he fails however (and it happened) he probably just dies by the counter attack.
I loved my tombblades but sadly agains knights they have been nothing but target practice. But their mobility and anti infantry makes them sooo much more valuable for me than TImmortals.
Yep, i've been saying that for a while now. Knights are completely unbalanced for a random draw meta. If you know they are coming, they can be planned for, but taking a TAC list vs a Knight list is basically a guaranteed loss.
Knights are one of the most OP models in the game currently. I expect an nerf soon, either when the FAQ drops (this or next month), or with CA 2018 (probably december). While you can make an anti knight necron list its nearly impossible to win against them with an all corners list.
Yeah, i like running my lists troop heavy, but I can't justify it with those terrors running around. So i bring my own if there is a remote chance im fighting a knight.
Spoiler:
Nihilakh Bat
Cryptek w/ Cloak, Immortal Pride
Lord w/ Voidblade
2x5 Timmortals
1x9 Timmortals
5x1 Wraiths
6x Destroyers
2x Doomsday Arks
Super Heavy Aux
Gauss Pylon.
Between the Pylon and the Arks, I should be able to easily kill a knight a turn. Ideally, going first of course. Cryptek just babysits the Pylon and DDAs
So I'm thinking about trying out a 2x tesseract vault 1x gauss pylon list. Has anyone done this yet? I'd love some input or feedback on how it did. Full list:
Nihilahk super heavy detachment
2x tesseract vault.
1x gauss pylon
Nihilahk out rider
1x cloaktek with enduring will and timesplinter cloak
2x4 scarabs
1x3 scarabs
How do you screen your pylon ? With scarabs ? Those are easily deleted, and when your pylon is in melee its shut down. How do you hold objectives when your scarabs screen your pylon ? How do you deal with 100+ models armies ?
p5freak wrote: How do you screen your pylon ? With scarabs ? Those are easily deleted, and when your pylon is in melee its shut down. How do you hold objectives when your scarabs screen your pylon ? How do you deal with 100+ models armies ?
Pylons can fire even if there are models within 1"
Furthermore, models within 1" of the pylon can still be shot at by the rest of your army
p5freak wrote: How do you screen your pylon ? With scarabs ? Those are easily deleted, and when your pylon is in melee its shut down. How do you hold objectives when your scarabs screen your pylon ? How do you deal with 100+ models armies ?
Pylons can fire even if there are models within 1"
Furthermore, models within 1" of the pylon can still be shot at by the rest of your army
Inevitableq wrote: So I'm thinking about trying out a 2x tesseract vault 1x gauss pylon list. Has anyone done this yet? I'd love some input or feedback on how it did. Full list:
Nihilahk super heavy detachment
2x tesseract vault.
1x gauss pylon
Nihilahk out rider
1x cloaktek with enduring will and timesplinter cloak
2x4 scarabs
1x3 scarabs
Deciever.
That's the FULL list? Say something about hardcore counter that gets hard countered by other lists. I think this would be more appropriate for ETC enviroment. But any army with lots of models would have field day. I think my 1.5k ork list from last tournament would basically autowin. You wouldnt' get objectives nor have enough time to kill all 243 models(though seismic assault would be ouch I'll give you that)
Inevitableq wrote: So I'm thinking about trying out a 2x tesseract vault 1x gauss pylon list. Has anyone done this yet? I'd love some input or feedback on how it did. Full list:
Nihilahk super heavy detachment
2x tesseract vault.
1x gauss pylon
Nihilahk out rider
1x cloaktek with enduring will and timesplinter cloak
2x4 scarabs
1x3 scarabs
Deciever.
I posted a battle report earlier with the same list except I had a Sautekh Batallion for CP, the D3-1 healing isn't worth the extra CP from Hyperlogical Strategist. I think I also played my Vaults as Sautekh for the healing and tesla, I honestly have no idea how good Nihilakh Vaults are, I used the Stratagem once in this one game and my opponent just ignored that particular model for a turn. I'm not sure how many pts you're playing because your list doesn't add up to 1750 or 2k. I lost against BA because I deployed my Pylon to re-roll ones and then when my opponent tried to put his vehicles out of LOS of the Pylon I said it was good enough, in reality there was nowhere on the table where they could hide. Pylon got smashed by smashfucker, one of the Vaults got destroyed by shooting and Celestine and I played very defensively with my troops so they did nothing all game. I did very little damage to my opponent and he quickly wiped out the rest of my force.
I don't think the Pylon is good, your opponent is just going to save his rotate ion shields stratagem for the pylon and you'll be facing a 4+ invul, except when it's a 3+ invul and that's assuming your opponent isn't playing a list consisting entirely of units that don't mind being shot by a Pylon. If your opponent is bringing an AM commander you're looking at a re-rolled save every turn and one extra re-roll over the course of the game, your chances of one-shotting knights isn't what it was with the index and you're paying more now. I'd say Doomsday Arks all the way, they're less powerful against Knights, but not really by a lot compared to how useless the Pylon is going to be against hordes.
I played another game with my balanced Orikan list against a different Ork player with a more optimized list. Maelstrom CA race to victory. I went first but my opponent ended the game turn 4 by getting his tenth tactical objective so he won 17-10, I had completed 6 tactical objectives. I lost a doomsday ark, a big squad of Warriors, 5 Deathmarks and a Lord, the rest of my army was alive. My opponent had a weirdboy, big mob of boyz and 4 mek guns left, the rest of his list was dead.
Game:
Spoiler:
I didn't go all in on the objectives, expecting to be able to wipe him out before he got 10 objectives. I made several mistakes, on turn 2 knowing my opponent had kept an objective where he needed to get objective 4 with his warlord I could have moved my doomsday ark in such a way that he couldn't use da jump to get it but I didn't. I waited to use the Veil of Darkness until turn 3 because I thought I would be charged and would need to relocate my warriors to get out of combat, but between overwatch, melee and morale my Warriors just obliterated anything that charged them. I don't think it was a bad idea to keep it because my opponent could have used insane heroism to tie up my main battleline. I finally decided enough was enough and charged my Lychguard and Lord forward with the Veil of Darkness, Lychguard failed their charge and I decided to trade my Lord for a round of shooting of a Mek gun, big mistake as my opponent got the assasinate objective on his following turn. Even if assasinate was unlikely to come up, trading a Lord for a round of shooting wasn't worth it keeping in mind that my opponent was ahead on objectives and if Assasinate came up it would be a huge loss to let him have it. On turn 4 I expected to be able to destroy a big squad of boyz engaged with my lychguard through shooting, I withdrew my lychguard and did little damage to the unit with my shooting, my opponent could now use Da Jump and charge to get the last objective he needed, had I stayed in CC he would not have been able to get to the last objective. Althought I didn't know I needed to at the time my Destroyers could have moved in such a way my opponent could not get to objective 4 on his last turn.
List:
Spoiler:
73 Models Sautekh Battalion (5) 8 CP 1996
1 Lord (hyperphase sword) {Veil of Darkness} 76
1 Orikan the Diviner {Hyperlogical Strategist} 115
Inevitableq wrote: So I'm thinking about trying out a 2x tesseract vault 1x gauss pylon list. Has anyone done this yet? I'd love some input or feedback on how it did. Full list:
Nihilahk super heavy detachment
2x tesseract vault.
1x gauss pylon
Nihilahk out rider
1x cloaktek with enduring will and timesplinter cloak
2x4 scarabs
1x3 scarabs
Deciever.
That's the FULL list? Say something about hardcore counter that gets hard countered by other lists. I think this would be more appropriate for ETC enviroment. But any army with lots of models would have field day. I think my 1.5k ork list from last tournament would basically autowin. You wouldnt' get objectives nor have enough time to kill all 243 models(though seismic assault would be ouch I'll give you that)
My knights would absolutely hate you though
Yeah a true horde list would most likely be a solid counter to this. Though 40 Tesla shots does some good work on hordes. My local meta has very few horde lists though. Lots of IG and a smattering of blood Angel's and DE is what I'm looking at. Last couple events have been won by tripple shadow sword lists as well.
Im curious, do they compare their codex work with other balance teams and codicies or do they do it in a vacuum and only know the current state of the game at that certain time (probably a month or up to three before as the books have to be printed)
It seems odd to post those statistics without lists you're right. It wouldn't be surprising if it were just Vaults and then Vaults took a hit this December.
Nick Nanavati(arguably the best player on earth) played Necrons on stream.
Sautekh Battalion
Zandrekh (WL)
Cryptek- chronometron, staff of light (Veil)
5 Immortals- tesla
5 Immortals- tesla
10 Immortals- tesla
10 Lychguard- hyperphase swords, dispersion shields
Mixed outrider
Destroyer Lord- War Scythe, Res Orb <sautekh> (he bought the artifact orb)
Obyron
9 Scarabs <Nephrek>
6 Destroyers <Sautekh>
6 Wraiths <Nihlakh>
Thoughts after game: wraiths suck, Lychguard were terrible but he'll give them another shot since it was mainly a luck thing. He plans on making another batallion and remove the wraiths. He's happy with his character choices.
The combo is: Cryptek veils himself and Nemesor. Obyron then teleports stuff next him, which HAS NO 9'' LIMITATION! So almost guaranteed charge turn 1 for a unit.
If you wanna watch the video of the stream - Nights at the Game Table facebook page. The opponent was Colin Sherman who runs the, in my opinion, best podcast for competitive 40k - "Best in Faction".
Nick maybe the best 40k player, but he doesnt understand necrons. Wraiths dont suck, lychguard suck. The Zandrekh/obyron/cryptek combo alone is 405 (!) pts. No unit in the entire game of 40k is worth the investment of so many points for a turn 1 charge. Especially not lychguard, for 340 (!) pts. Other factions can do turn 1 charges for a lot less than 100 pts. The Zandrekh/obyron/cryptek/lychguard combo is 745 pts, thats insane. I can get 14 (!) wraiths for 775 pts.
The guy playing vs him also owns necrons. He said in his many many practice games - wraiths just don't do enough. They have too many weaknesses: mortal wounds, invul removals, mass 0 AP shooting or... just bad rolls lol(and no you can't say that for everything in the game. 60 models of the same cost total will average out the dice - wraiths are way more vulnerable to bad dice). They also don't do much damage. The only thing they have is mobility but then you compare them to eldar... :/ If you say "you can't cmopare them to the fastest faction" - why not? If you do something another faction does, except worse - you probably shouldn't be doing that.
p5freak wrote: Nick maybe the best 40k player, but he doesnt understand necrons. Wraiths dont suck, lychguard suck. The Zandrekh/obyron/cryptek combo alone is 405 (!) pts. No unit in the entire game of 40k is worth the investment of so many points for a turn 1 charge. Especially not lychguard, for 340 (!) pts. Other factions can do turn 1 charges for a lot less than 100 pts. The Zandrekh/obyron/cryptek/lychguard combo is 745 pts, thats insane. I can get 14 (!) wraiths for 775 pts.
Yeah, this. I saw the list posted on his site before the game and thought it was weak and gimmicky, and lo and behold it turned out to be.
To be fair..... Necrons cannot win in a straight up fight. They are overcosted and GW admits that (hence the comfirmed points drops in CA). So you might as well go for tricks and gimmicks...
6 wraiths (18 attacks) have better DMG output than 10 lychguard (20) , DMG 2 winning over AP-3 and 2 more attacks, even with MWBD and reroll 1s to wound for the lychguard.
18 wounds T5/3++ is in itself more resilient than 20 wounds T5/4++ , or not much different. Does he mean to play them for their RP?
Furthermore lychguard need to get closer to their targets than wraiths, because if they fail they are sitting ducks waggling along 5" a turn, can't advance 15" through things, and charge like wraiths. This makes them vulnerable to chaff/screening or they would need to wait a turn before they jump.
rvd1ofakind wrote: To be fair..... Necrons cannot win in a straight up fight. They are overcosted and GW admits that (hence the comfirmed points drops in CA). So you might as well go for tricks and gimmicks...
rvd1ofakind wrote: To be fair..... Necrons cannot win in a straight up fight. They are overcosted and GW admits that (hence the comfirmed points drops in CA). So you might as well go for tricks and gimmicks...
Do you have a source on GW confirming that?
He is the source, iirc. Don't expect anymore information than that, apparently due to non disclosure agreements.
rvd1ofakind wrote: To be fair..... Necrons cannot win in a straight up fight. They are overcosted and GW admits that (hence the comfirmed points drops in CA). So you might as well go for tricks and gimmicks...
Out of curiosity, where did they confirm the points drops? i'd like to read up on it if possible.
rvd1ofakind wrote: To be fair..... Necrons cannot win in a straight up fight. They are overcosted and GW admits that (hence the comfirmed points drops in CA). So you might as well go for tricks and gimmicks...
Out of curiosity, where did they confirm the points drops? i'd like to read up on it if possible.
We've been through it before, to the point where he became rather agitated and said he was done posting about it because he didn't like the idea of not being immediately taken at his word.
rvd1ofakind wrote: To be fair..... Necrons cannot win in a straight up fight. They are overcosted and GW admits that (hence the comfirmed points drops in CA). So you might as well go for tricks and gimmicks...
Out of curiosity, where did they confirm the points drops? i'd like to read up on it if possible.
We've been through it before, to the point where he became rather agitated and said he was done posting about it because he didn't like the idea of not being immediately taken at his word.
I wouldn't say it's particularly worth pursuing.
To be fair, if it is due to a NDA he can't be expected to give us more details or his sources.
We'll just have to wait.
rvd1ofakind wrote: To be fair..... Necrons cannot win in a straight up fight. They are overcosted and GW admits that (hence the comfirmed points drops in CA). So you might as well go for tricks and gimmicks...
Out of curiosity, where did they confirm the points drops? i'd like to read up on it if possible.
We've been through it before, to the point where he became rather agitated and said he was done posting about it because he didn't like the idea of not being immediately taken at his word.
I wouldn't say it's particularly worth pursuing.
To be fair, if it is due to a NDA he can't be expected to give us more details or his sources.
We'll just have to wait.
The first time, I don't think I ever said he was wrong or that I expected him to be more open; the only thing I pointed out was how he seemed unwilling to accept that such little evidence naturally breeds doubt, and then he started getting worked up.
Even now I'm not contradicting him, simply pointing out that if you're already skeptical there's not much point in looking for clarification, both because it's all he currently has, and his past posts seem to imply at best a contempt for doubt.
Ofc it isn't 100% in your eyes. But all the signs point to that(most resold army in FB, Necron only players abandoning it, all top players have it in bottom 3 factions - GW heard all this at Nova) plus my very trusted source outright confirmed it.
Do you think we'll see big changes to the Tesseract Vault? I think limiting it to a 0-1 option in matched play would be an easy fix without upping the cost of it massively, I think its pretty well costed at the moment.
IDK if straight up point drops would be enough. It would have to be pretty significant across most the board, and that might just make the army too OP.
Personally I'd just like a boost to our Anti-Tank guns, but that is just me.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Ofc it isn't 100% in your eyes. But all the signs point to that(most resold army in FB, Necron only players abandoning it, all top players have it in bottom 3 factions - GW heard all this at Nova) plus my very trusted source outright confirmed it.
I just want to know what else your trusted source got right. Yeah it is likely stuff will get price cuts, but if it by a huge amount obviously we don't want to be disappointed.
Towenaar wrote: Do you think we'll see big changes to the Tesseract Vault? I think limiting it to a 0-1 option in matched play would be an easy fix without upping the cost of it massively, I think its pretty well costed at the moment.
I'm almost certain something will change about it... Which is annoying as 1 TV is perfectly fine, 2 is really good and 3 is broken (not OP. It auto-wins or auto-loses every game). The problem is ofc the 3 vault list in team tournaments. Because the best list in team tournaments is a broken list - you pick your matchups so you just sent this list against your opponent's list which is weak to it.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Ofc it isn't 100% in your eyes. But all the signs point to that(most resold army in FB, Necron only players abandoning it, all top players have it in bottom 3 factions - GW heard all this at Nova) plus my very trusted source outright confirmed it.
I just want to know what else your trusted source got right. Yeah it is likely stuff will get price cuts, but if it by a huge amount obviously we don't want to be disappointed.
I don't trust my source because of previous correct leaks. I have other reasons - there is no chance in hell my source is lying, let's just put it that way.
p5freak wrote: So thats how the guys look like who failed at writing a decent codex.
I had the same thought. They should have pixelated their faces and modulated their voices for their many crimes against the Necrontyr...
The whole video I was foolishly expecting them to say something new I hadn't heard or thought of myself before, but obviously that didn't happen. Even the lore they talked about was just rehashes of what's been the Necron story since 5th edition; like, the Thousand Sons codex for example has really wonky rules that severely punish you for trying to make a proper Thousand Sons army, but at least the lore section is incredible and has a lot of cool, new stuff. The Necron codex is just phoned in on every front.
I am really liking the idea of the Resurrection Orb being able to resurrect (by allowing RP rolls) a wiped out unit. Totally fluffy and suitably powerful for a 30p one use item. Would love if that idea made it into CA.
So...our resident Tau player at my FLGS is getting a riptide. How do we deal with it? Yet more destroyers? Keep in mind that we tend to play 1k games, so no murder blobs of 6 destroyers or 10 lychguard in a monolith or something.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So...our resident Tau player at my FLGS is getting a riptide. How do we deal with it? Yet more destroyers? Keep in mind that we tend to play 1k games, so no murder blobs of 6 destroyers or 10 lychguard in a monolith or something.
If you get first turn, a DDA should make nice work of it
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So...our resident Tau player at my FLGS is getting a riptide. How do we deal with it? Yet more destroyers? Keep in mind that we tend to play 1k games, so no murder blobs of 6 destroyers or 10 lychguard in a monolith or something.
If you get first turn, a DDA should make nice work of it
And if I don't get first turn, don't have a DDA or he does the smart thing and hides it?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So...our resident Tau player at my FLGS is getting a riptide. How do we deal with it? Yet more destroyers? Keep in mind that we tend to play 1k games, so no murder blobs of 6 destroyers or 10 lychguard in a monolith or something.
If you get first turn, a DDA should make nice work of it
And if I don't get first turn, don't have a DDA or he does the smart thing and hides it?
if he hides it he cant shoot with it.
Depends on what kind of terrain you play with of course. Wraiths might make it up there eventually. Nephrek destroyers probably get one good chance to take him down, but it'll be against 3++. Remember it'll be worthwhile to bring him down one bracket too. Suddenly he's hitting on 5s. Or burning through his CPs. The Riptide while strong, isn't the auto-take it used to be.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So...our resident Tau player at my FLGS is getting a riptide. How do we deal with it? Yet more destroyers? Keep in mind that we tend to play 1k games, so no murder blobs of 6 destroyers or 10 lychguard in a monolith or something.
If you get first turn, a DDA should make nice work of it
And if I don't get first turn, don't have a DDA or he does the smart thing and hides it?
if he hides it he cant shoot with it.
Depends on what kind of terrain you play with of course. Wraiths might make it up there eventually. Nephrek destroyers probably get one good chance to take him down, but it'll be against 3++. Remember it'll be worthwhile to bring him down one bracket too. Suddenly he's hitting on 5s. Or burning through his CPs. The Riptide while strong, isn't the auto-take it used to be.
Can't he move and shoot with it though? Or is that a bad idea with riptides? I'm not too familiar with Tau this edition.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So...our resident Tau player at my FLGS is getting a riptide. How do we deal with it? Yet more destroyers? Keep in mind that we tend to play 1k games, so no murder blobs of 6 destroyers or 10 lychguard in a monolith or something.
If you get first turn, a DDA should make nice work of it
And if I don't get first turn, don't have a DDA or he does the smart thing and hides it?
if he hides it he cant shoot with it.
Depends on what kind of terrain you play with of course. Wraiths might make it up there eventually. Nephrek destroyers probably get one good chance to take him down, but it'll be against 3++. Remember it'll be worthwhile to bring him down one bracket too. Suddenly he's hitting on 5s. Or burning through his CPs. The Riptide while strong, isn't the auto-take it used to be.
Can't he move and shoot with it though? Or is that a bad idea with riptides? I'm not too familiar with Tau this edition.
BS 4+. It's main weapon is a heavy weapon, so 5+ if it moves. It doesn't seem that scary on paper, I think I played Tau twice or maybe three times since the drop of 8th though. Just keep removing anti-infantry from your list until it starts hurting and then replace all that with ranged anti-vehicle. I wouldn't want any true melee units against Tau, might as well ignore their advantage at Overwatch and beat them at their own game.
I'd take something like 1 Cloaktek, 2x6 Destroyers, 1 Doomsday Ark, spend what's left on Scarab Swarms, that's a pretty brutal 1k list. Once you get rid of enemy anti-tank all you have to do is take cover with your Destroyers and slowly eradicate them, 3 W T5 2+ Sv regenerating 6 W/turn is impossible to get rid of in the mid game for D1 AP- weapons. I don't think our Troops can compete with Tau troops very effectively and Destroyers with their 18 wounds T5 are way easier to get Reanimation on compared to 10 W Immortals with T4. If your opponents start spamming anti-vehicle just switch to Scarab Swarm/Warrior spam backed by a Ghost Ark every couple of games to keep them on their toes. How about you post your collection so we can help you figure out what you can actually do, I'm geussing since you said "what if I don't have a DDA" and "1k pts" you still don't have a large collection? What do we have to work with?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So...our resident Tau player at my FLGS is getting a riptide. How do we deal with it? Yet more destroyers? Keep in mind that we tend to play 1k games, so no murder blobs of 6 destroyers or 10 lychguard in a monolith or something.
If you get first turn, a DDA should make nice work of it
And if I don't get first turn, don't have a DDA or he does the smart thing and hides it?
if he hides it he cant shoot with it.
Depends on what kind of terrain you play with of course. Wraiths might make it up there eventually. Nephrek destroyers probably get one good chance to take him down, but it'll be against 3++. Remember it'll be worthwhile to bring him down one bracket too. Suddenly he's hitting on 5s. Or burning through his CPs. The Riptide while strong, isn't the auto-take it used to be.
Can't he move and shoot with it though? Or is that a bad idea with riptides? I'm not too familiar with Tau this edition.
BS 4+. It's main weapon is a heavy weapon, so 5+ if it moves. It doesn't seem that scary on paper, I think I played Tau twice or maybe three times since the drop of 8th though. Just keep removing anti-infantry from your list until it starts hurting and then replace all that with ranged anti-vehicle. I wouldn't want any true melee units against Tau, might as well ignore their advantage at Overwatch and beat them at their own game.
I'd take something like 1 Cloaktek, 2x6 Destroyers, 1 Doomsday Ark, spend what's left on Scarab Swarms, that's a pretty brutal 1k list. Once you get rid of enemy anti-tank all you have to do is take cover with your Destroyers and slowly eradicate them, 3 W T5 2+ Sv regenerating 6 W/turn is impossible to get rid of in the mid game for D1 AP- weapons. I don't think our Troops can compete with Tau troops very effectively and Destroyers with their 18 wounds T5 are way easier to get Reanimation on compared to 10 W Immortals with T4. If your opponents start spamming anti-vehicle just switch to Scarab Swarm/Warrior spam backed by a Ghost Ark every couple of games to keep them on their toes. How about you post your collection so we can help you figure out what you can actually do, I'm geussing since you said "what if I don't have a DDA" and "1k pts" you still don't have a large collection? What do we have to work with?
Also the Deceiver is great for bringing units across the board without suffering from the long range of the fire warriors. I played a Mephrit Silver Tide against Tau once with great success, no destroyers and no DDAs but had 6 wraiths. Deceiver brought warriors into rapid fire range for 40 shots S4/AP-2. This ate through the Riptide in 2 turns.
Was a super close game near the end. I forgot to use stratagems to case a free power a couple of turns.
Time's Arrow was a superstar on t1 and t2, popping characters when applicable.
I kitted out my powers a bit poorly, but still did fine.
In the end I had 1 full immortal squad, and both HQs alive, with a second immortal squad down to a single model. Opponent called it after CCB charged and killed Pask, he was left with two guard squads.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So...our resident Tau player at my FLGS is getting a riptide. How do we deal with it? Yet more destroyers? Keep in mind that we tend to play 1k games, so no murder blobs of 6 destroyers or 10 lychguard in a monolith or something.
If you get first turn, a DDA should make nice work of it
And if I don't get first turn, don't have a DDA or he does the smart thing and hides it?
if he hides it he cant shoot with it.
Depends on what kind of terrain you play with of course. Wraiths might make it up there eventually. Nephrek destroyers probably get one good chance to take him down, but it'll be against 3++. Remember it'll be worthwhile to bring him down one bracket too. Suddenly he's hitting on 5s. Or burning through his CPs. The Riptide while strong, isn't the auto-take it used to be.
Can't he move and shoot with it though? Or is that a bad idea with riptides? I'm not too familiar with Tau this edition.
BS 4+. It's main weapon is a heavy weapon, so 5+ if it moves. It doesn't seem that scary on paper, I think I played Tau twice or maybe three times since the drop of 8th though. Just keep removing anti-infantry from your list until it starts hurting and then replace all that with ranged anti-vehicle. I wouldn't want any true melee units against Tau, might as well ignore their advantage at Overwatch and beat them at their own game.
I'd take something like 1 Cloaktek, 2x6 Destroyers, 1 Doomsday Ark, spend what's left on Scarab Swarms, that's a pretty brutal 1k list. Once you get rid of enemy anti-tank all you have to do is take cover with your Destroyers and slowly eradicate them, 3 W T5 2+ Sv regenerating 6 W/turn is impossible to get rid of in the mid game for D1 AP- weapons. I don't think our Troops can compete with Tau troops very effectively and Destroyers with their 18 wounds T5 are way easier to get Reanimation on compared to 10 W Immortals with T4. If your opponents start spamming anti-vehicle just switch to Scarab Swarm/Warrior spam backed by a Ghost Ark every couple of games to keep them on their toes. How about you post your collection so we can help you figure out what you can actually do, I'm geussing since you said "what if I don't have a DDA" and "1k pts" you still don't have a large collection? What do we have to work with?
Huh, could have sworn that it had assault weapons. I could field the cloaktek and destroyers, but the DA is still nowhere near finished. I do have one, but I only field finished models. I should really get my backlog cleared -_- Anyway, I have 1 Lord 1 Overlord 1 Chronotek 1 cloaktek 1 destroyer lord 1 nightbringer 80 warrriors 10 gauss immortals 5 tesla immortals 9 swarms 6 flayed ones 10 scytheguard (5 of them pariahs, 5 unpainted) 5 shieldguard 4 wraiths (2 of them being painted) 6 destroyers 2 heavy destroyers 10 deathmarks 1 nightscythe 1 monolith 1 annihilation barge 1 ghost ark 1 doomsday ark (still waiting assembly, which will take a while, because the Arks are a bitch to work with and I'd rather get the infantry done.) 1 deceiver
I could totally field more than 1k points. Its just that most players at my FLGS are just starting, so they tend to ask for 1k point games.
I play against Tau a lot, so a couple notes for you:
- Kill shield drones first. Bring all the fire power you want, but if you don't cut those drones down, you'll never kill the riptides until it's too late.
- Riptides can take a bit of wargear that allows the to move and fire heavies without penalty.
- While they are BS4 on paper, it's not difficult for them to get to BS3 with rerolls through various abilities.
- Don't under estimate mass fire warriors backed up by a cadre.
- Kill shield drones first. Bring all the fire power you want, but if you don't cut those drones down, you'll never kill the riptides until it's too late.
- Riptides can take a bit of wargear that allows the to move and fire heavies without penalty.
- While they are BS4 on paper, it's not difficult for them to get to BS3 with rerolls through various abilities.
- Don't under estimate mass fire warriors backed up by a cadre.
Yeah, I played against him yesterday (no riptide, thankfully. Hasn't arrived yet), and whilst he did make a few mistakes (forgot Stealth suits can fly, did savior protocols completely wrong, etc. After the game I had to look that up on forums to see what was going on), he did get the Firewarrior combo right. They can fire a lot of shots at a surprisingly long range. He had that drone that increases pulse weapon range by 6" + fireblade dude + 10 Firewarriors. He can fire 30 pulse rifle shots at 18". After nearly killing my destroyers (which just arrived and blew up his crisis suits. Had to land close because we were playing Cloak and Shadows), I pretty much went "yeah, nope" and moved them 24" away from the firewarriors so I could regain some losses and take potshots at them.
I think the Target Lock is the wargear that lets them move and fire heavy weapons; one of the basic Battlesuit support upgrades Tau can take, so not exactly a rarity either.
So my apologies if this was covered elsewhere, but the wife just surprised me with a box of Lychguard/Praetorians. I eventually plan on getting at least 1 unit of both because I love a good fluffy army on display, but for now my army is still slowly growing, so I need to get what the better of the two to the table.
So wise members of Dakka, which unit should I build it up as? I'm personally thinking Praetorians with the RoC, for the extra move and shoot. Plus the Fly keyword is good to have.
Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote: So my apologies if this was covered elsewhere, but the wife just surprised me with a box of Lychguard/Praetorians. I eventually plan on getting at least 1 unit of both because I love a good fluffy army on display, but for now my army is still slowly growing, so I need to get what the better of the two to the table.
So wise members of Dakka, which unit should I build it up as? I'm personally thinking Praetorians with the RoC, for the extra move and shoot. Plus the Fly keyword is good to have.
I think you are absolutely right to pick Praetorians. Lychguard have better weapons and stats, but they are just TOO damn slow to really do anything. At least Praetorians can unleash a bunch of dakka and wipe screens quickly, granted they ARE a bit overpriced, but hopefully the faq or new CA can help fix that.
Maybe not the most competitive unit atm, but a big fan of pratetorians as I think they are one of our best looking units. I personally prefer the voidblade loadout as you get more attacks, crucial when its a more anti-infantry unit, and the pistol shot is good in combat too.
Lychguard with scythes as well are a good choice. If you can find a good delivery system (VoD, Zandrekh/Obyron) they can hit extremely hard.
You can use Translocation Crypt to place a unit of lychguard more than 9" away from an enemy unit. That should barely be close enough for a charge if you get lucky with your dice.
Remember that you now have to be within 1" of an enemy unit for the charge to be successful.
The crypt should really be a universal necron stratagem. I'm really annoyed that its locked to Nephekh.
Praetorians are fast and toothless, Lychguard are lethal and slow. Neither are great units right now though Praetorians can probably be fixed more easily since their issue is in stats rather than design.
Let the Ghost Ark act as a normal transport for infantry. Lychguard are great T5 shock assaulters, only issue is the delivery. Nightsycthe is out because you'll almost always be forced to use CP to save them from being auto destroyed.
Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote: So my apologies if this was covered elsewhere, but the wife just surprised me with a box of Lychguard/Praetorians. I eventually plan on getting at least 1 unit of both because I love a good fluffy army on display, but for now my army is still slowly growing, so I need to get what the better of the two to the table.
So wise members of Dakka, which unit should I build it up as? I'm personally thinking Praetorians with the RoC, for the extra move and shoot. Plus the Fly keyword is good to have.
RoC is terrible. If you assume you shoot and charge then Blade+P.Caster gets a free S6 shot because the extra attack on the voidblade cancels out the RoC shooting, then if your opponent doesn't fall back you get an extra attack, if you survive until your next turn and you're fighting the same unit you get an extra attack and a S6 shot. RoC has better damage output when you fall back and shoot, when you fail your charge (damage output in the Shooting phase is SLIGHTLY higher) and when you fire Overwatch. If that's the playstyle you're looking for use Tomb Blades with Twin Tesla Carbines.
Lychguard with Dispersion Shields are bad, look at the comparison between them and Wraiths a page or two back.
If you're going to play anything other than the following three types of armies avoid Lychguard with Warscythes: Nephrekh, Novokh, Sautekh with Orikan the Diviner.
Triarch Praetorians aren't terrible, but they're really squishy, so having some other glass cannons in your army makes it more likely at least some of your teeth will get to bite, instead of just being left with a bunch of no-teeth units after your two offensive units get killed.
I'd just build whatever I think looks better, it sounds like you're just starting out, none of the units are truly competetive right now and letting the box collect dust until we see which of them get a buff (hopefully all of them) in the next CA is kind of boring. I'd maybe try to proxy the bases as one or the other to figure out which playstyle you like better.
NurglesR0T wrote: Let the Ghost Ark act as a normal transport for infantry. Lychguard are great T5 shock assaulters, only issue is the delivery. Nightsycthe is out because you'll almost always be forced to use CP to save them from being auto destroyed.
Or let the monolith work as intended and add more Invasion Beam options. Necrons shouldn't ride around in a cart like primitives. The Ghost Ark should always be a repair vehicle, not an APC.
I'd argue that Necrons are less mobile than they were in 3rd, and they didn't have transports back then. The Veil of Darkness could be used more than once, Monoliths can actually do their one job, and monoliths could teleport units from to table to its portal for free. There was even a rule stopping chain teleportation, because they had plenty of options to get around the table.
If you really want to make necrons mobile, get rid of the once a game limit on the VoD, let monoliths work as intended, make Dimensional Corridor an ability rather than a stratagem, make flyers not terrible, and make a new ground unit that has an invasion beam portal. Like a mobile stargate or something.
The annoying thing about Tomb World deployment is the way it clashes with the current beta rules. You can move monolith's around with the deceiver but you still can't get units on the Tomb World out of it until turn 2.
It should be able to deploy troops the same turn it arrives, a wording change could fix that. A Ghost Ark should be able to carry 10 Necron Warriors or 5 of any other Infantry models.
The Invasion Beam should have extended range so it could effectively "shoot" troops onto the ground.
***
Also RE: Praetorians, I always go for the Voidblades, to bury enemies in S5 AP-3 attacks. They are oddly one of our best units for AA because they can charge flyers, where the -3 really hurts since the majority of flyers lack an invulnerable save. Also, everybody, including many Necron players, forget about A Purpose Unshakeable. They can't fail morale, ever, so they are in some ways more resilient than other elites.
Also RE: Praetorians, I always go for the Voidblades, to bury enemies in S5 AP-3 attacks. They are oddly one of our best units for AA because they can charge flyers, where the -3 really hurts since the majority of flyers lack an invulnerable save. Also, everybody, including many Necron players, forget about A Purpose Unshakeable. They can't fail morale, ever, so they are in some ways more resilient than other elites.
Good call, this pretty much made up my mind. My local meta is still kinda flyer heavy, so this was something that I overlooked. I'll get some Lychguard at a later date when I have more options. Thank you all for your help.
Not saying I'm uninterested (because dang, that looks cool), but I'm not holding my breath.
Don't be absurd. It will be 900 points with no QS and T6. Oh, but it regenerates D6 wounds and has 20 of them though, so that makes it worth it! (thinks GW's design team...)
The last thing FW put out (the AdMech drill) was pretty good. No reason to just assume that this is going to be terrible. Might as well be optimistic until proven otherwise.
I thought it was coming with weapon options? Remains to be seen I guess.
It is. In the article it says that the Singularity Generator was just one of the options, and then showed pictures of the other configurations, but unnamed.
I thought it was coming with weapon options? Remains to be seen I guess.
It is. In the article it says that the Singularity Generator was just one of the options, and then showed pictures of the other configurations, but unnamed.
Indeed.
So the profile shown would be a light to medium vehicle killer or elite killer I suppose. And a formidable one at that, with plenty of hits, resulting in plenty of wound rolls to get that sweet 6+ mortal wound to punch through invuls.
Guessing the other one is either a much higher strength vehicle melter or a horde or mass infantry weapon then.
It's nice to see that the albeit 12 hits on average, the weapon profile means the construct likely belongs in regular 1.5k-2k games. Less so than the Pylon perhaps, which is more of a specialist titanic killer.
Definitely throwing money after this thing first thing. Early christmas self-present.
Im also not convinced yet but the 3D3 is nice...D6 Damage however...
As I thought its a giant version of the sniper rifle the deathmarks have as it has the same effect
I would guess the second weapon choice would be some big AT weapon maybe str 10 - 14 or something. AP „a lot“ maybe fixed dmg?
I dont think were going to see T8...not sure about QS...
I almost agree on the stats. Indeed, its supposed to be an equivalent to an imperial knight. So my guess is T8, W25, 5++ invsv, 400-500 pts. BS and WS 3+, no penalty for firing and moving heavy weapons. MW on 6+ will rarely happen against T7, 12 shots will score 9 hits and wound 6 times, with only 1 MW.
Looking at the structure of it i wonder if it'll have any interesting rules, kinda like how the Tesseract Ark has? I'm anxious to see how FW handles the rules. And the price
It's a Forge World model so it'll inevitably do something bizarre and unique. Might be a rule connected to the model itself, might be that one of the other wargear options is super goofy.
Is Separatek a weird spin on Canoptek? Maybe they don't want it using the strategem to shoot and/or charge after advancing.
Or perhaps they came up with a new Dynasty; as it's in an unfamiliar paint scheme it's possible
So I ran a bit of a monte-carlo simulation on the big spider.
The blip at the end is because there's a very long tail to the distribution, and that's how many wounds a castellan has so I truncated it there. That's a ~1.3% chance of 1-shotting it, BTW, it's less than it looks.
dapperbandit wrote: Is Separatek a weird spin on Canoptek? Maybe they don't want it using the strategem to shoot and/or charge after advancing.
Or perhaps they came up with a new Dynasty; as it's in an unfamiliar paint scheme it's possible
I reckon it's probably the patented forgeworld pattern designation, like how they have the cerastus and acastus pattern knights. Seraptek is presumably the name they're gonna use to differentiate titanic Canoptek units from normal Canoptek units.
momerathe wrote: So I ran a bit of a monte-carlo simulation on the big spider.
The blip at the end is because there's a very long tail to the distribution, and that's how many wounds a castellan has so I truncated it there. That's a ~1.3% chance of 1-shotting it, BTW, it's less than it looks.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Im also not convinced yet but the 3D3 is nice...D6 Damage however...
As I thought its a giant version of the sniper rifle the deathmarks have as it has the same effect
I would guess the second weapon choice would be some big AT weapon maybe str 10 - 14 or something. AP „a lot“ maybe fixed dmg?
I dont think were going to see T8...not sure about QS...
~400point model
It's actually a giant version of the transdimemsional beamer that wraiths can take (look at the stat lines and the look of the weapons). I don't know what they plan to do to make a Titan sized version of the synaptic disintigrator. Maybe something similar to the rift cannon on dark talons but with much better range.
At any rate, with the weapon stat line they released, it gets pretty easily out shot by a couple units of destroyers across all targets, so it better have some serious defense capabilities beyond lots of wounds or great utility abilities, or be in the 350-450 points range for it to even be considered for competitive play.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Im also not convinced yet but the 3D3 is nice...D6 Damage however...
As I thought its a giant version of the sniper rifle the deathmarks have as it has the same effect
I would guess the second weapon choice would be some big AT weapon maybe str 10 - 14 or something. AP „a lot“ maybe fixed dmg?
I dont think were going to see T8...not sure about QS...
~400point model
It's actually a giant version of the transdimemsional beamer that wraiths can take (look at the stat lines and the look of the weapons). I don't know what they plan to do to make a Titan sized version of the synaptic disintigrator. Maybe something similar to the rift cannon on dark talons but with much better range.
At any rate, with the weapon stat line they released, it gets pretty easily out shot by a couple units of destroyers across all targets, so it better have some serious defense capabilities beyond lots of wounds or great utility abilities, or be in the 350-450 points range for it to even be considered for competitive play.
Each pack of 3 Destroyers without stratagem:
3x Destroyers With Stratagem:
(line 1 is toughness with a 5++, line 2 is average wounds caused)
Based on that, a unit of 6 Destroyers using the stratagem will cause 11 wounds on average to a T8 5++ unit.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Im also not convinced yet but the 3D3 is nice...D6 Damage however...
As I thought its a giant version of the sniper rifle the deathmarks have as it has the same effect
I would guess the second weapon choice would be some big AT weapon maybe str 10 - 14 or something. AP „a lot“ maybe fixed dmg?
I dont think were going to see T8...not sure about QS...
~400point model
It's actually a giant version of the transdimemsional beamer that wraiths can take (look at the stat lines and the look of the weapons). I don't know what they plan to do to make a Titan sized version of the synaptic disintigrator. Maybe something similar to the rift cannon on dark talons but with much better range.
At any rate, with the weapon stat line they released, it gets pretty easily out shot by a couple units of destroyers across all targets, so it better have some serious defense capabilities beyond lots of wounds or great utility abilities, or be in the 350-450 points range for it to even be considered for competitive play.
Ah yes, that's true. Now c'mon and give him a 3++ too )
Would be nice with some sort of synergy, to make him viable together with things like destroyers.
Or perhaps a 6" 5++ for canopteks to revive the scarab swarm, make the spyder survivable and synergize nicely with the tomb sentinel/stalker? And give him some CC capabilities to make it worthwhile stearing him forwards.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Im also not convinced yet but the 3D3 is nice...D6 Damage however...
As I thought its a giant version of the sniper rifle the deathmarks have as it has the same effect
I would guess the second weapon choice would be some big AT weapon maybe str 10 - 14 or something. AP „a lot“ maybe fixed dmg?
I dont think were going to see T8...not sure about QS...
~400point model
It's actually a giant version of the transdimemsional beamer that wraiths can take (look at the stat lines and the look of the weapons). I don't know what they plan to do to make a Titan sized version of the synaptic disintigrator. Maybe something similar to the rift cannon on dark talons but with much better range.
At any rate, with the weapon stat line they released, it gets pretty easily out shot by a couple units of destroyers across all targets, so it better have some serious defense capabilities beyond lots of wounds or great utility abilities, or be in the 350-450 points range for it to even be considered for competitive play.
Thanks for the clarification.
I agree the whole usefulness of this thing depends on its defensive abilities plus point costs.
T7/8 with 5++ and no QS for~500points is going to be a very big „NO“ for me.
I'm gonna say it now.
The thing isn't gonna have QS. Its a knight. It just looks Necron. Being immune to high damage weaponry via QS is painting a target on this thing's forehead, and is gonna make it cost 1000 points by itself.
There is no conceivable way it can be balanced with QS, a decent armor save, and a decent toughness. Unless its made of paper like the rest of our vehicles for some reason.
iGuy91 wrote: I'm gonna say it now.
The thing isn't gonna have QS. Its a knight. It just looks Necron. Being immune to high damage weaponry via QS is painting a target on this thing's forehead, and is gonna make it cost 1000 points by itself.
There is no conceivable way it can be balanced with QS, a decent armor save, and a decent toughness. Unless its made of paper like the rest of our vehicles for some reason.
I agree that I don't think it'll have it, but not that it can't be balanced.
I took a gauss pylon against 6 AM tanks once, and although went first and popped a tank a turn, it still took him only two rounds of full shooting to bring it down, using only Dmg2 and DmgD3 turret weapons and heavy bolters. (He only brought low-damage weapons against me knowing I might bring QS vehicles. Even now, long after 7th a necron player finds few friends :( )
QS would only marginally help against that.
I agree the meta has shifted towards knights and necron players not even playing any more, but Low dmg weapons in proportionally higher frequency would still pose a threat to it.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Im also not convinced yet but the 3D3 is nice...D6 Damage however...
As I thought its a giant version of the sniper rifle the deathmarks have as it has the same effect
I would guess the second weapon choice would be some big AT weapon maybe str 10 - 14 or something. AP „a lot“ maybe fixed dmg?
I dont think were going to see T8...not sure about QS...
~400point model
It's actually a giant version of the transdimemsional beamer that wraiths can take (look at the stat lines and the look of the weapons). I don't know what they plan to do to make a Titan sized version of the synaptic disintigrator. Maybe something similar to the rift cannon on dark talons but with much better range.
At any rate, with the weapon stat line they released, it gets pretty easily out shot by a couple units of destroyers across all targets, so it better have some serious defense capabilities beyond lots of wounds or great utility abilities, or be in the 350-450 points range for it to even be considered for competitive play.
Each pack of 3 Destroyers without stratagem:
3x Destroyers With Stratagem:
(line 1 is toughness with a 5++, line 2 is average wounds caused)
Based on that, a unit of 6 Destroyers using the stratagem will cause 11 wounds on average to a T8 5++ unit.
Yes, I meant an equivalent number of points of Destroyers will easily out shoot this thing. Even at 300 with a single unit they out shoot it, and I almost guarantee it will be much more than that. My guess is it will land in the 500-550 point range. It's utility and defensive stats are what will likely make or break it, and it will need to be pretty amazing as it's at least easy to hide your destroyers in deep strike until the best opportunity presents itself.
Edit: Of course there is nothing saying you can't take this and destroyers together, but that is a pretty large chunk of a 2k list.
Destroyers and/or extermination protocols might get nerfed in the upcoming FAQ round. The singularity generators are obviously not intended for taking out knights. Just wait for the complete rules before you judge the construct.
Yeah, we haven't seen the other configurations yet. The singularity generator might not even be intended to kill other Lords of War units. In fact, the Heavy Construct might not be intended to fight LoW at all. It is entirely possible they are going to leave that role to Pylons.
I agree, all we have is a weapon profile and speculation. Way too many details to know before any conclusion can be made. Until we get more info though, wild speculation is all we have, so might as well have fun with it
Maelstrom808 wrote: I agree, all we have is a weapon profile and speculation. Way too many details to know before any conclusion can be made. Until we get more info though, wild speculation is all we have, so might as well have fun with it
Oh absolutely.
It'll be interesting to see what direction the other weapon will go.
Also RE: Praetorians, I always go for the Voidblades, to bury enemies in S5 AP-3 attacks. They are oddly one of our best units for AA because they can charge flyers, where the -3 really hurts since the majority of flyers lack an invulnerable save. Also, everybody, including many Necron players, forget about A Purpose Unshakeable. They can't fail morale, ever, so they are in some ways more resilient than other elites.
Good call, this pretty much made up my mind. My local meta is still kinda flyer heavy, so this was something that I overlooked. I'll get some Lychguard at a later date when I have more options. Thank you all for your help.
I think there's still a case to be made for Rods due to the shooting profile being nice for shooting one squad and then charging another.
Maelstrom808 wrote: I agree, all we have is a weapon profile and speculation. Way too many details to know before any conclusion can be made. Until we get more info though, wild speculation is all we have, so might as well have fun with it
Oh absolutely.
It'll be interesting to see what direction the other weapon will go.
If I had to guess, since it's also asthetically similar to another weapon that's known for mortal wounds (synaptic disintigrator), I'd say something along the lines of the rift cannon on the dark talon, except more range, and possibly more shots.
So ever since bringing Tesseract Vaults I'm having a hard to fielding anything else. They wipe the floor with marines, which dominate my meta, and are relatively straightforward to play.
I also am just a sucker for fun gimmicky lists. Any other enjoyable (potentially cheesy) lists people would reccomend?
dapperbandit wrote: Is Separatek a weird spin on Canoptek? Maybe they don't want it using the strategem to shoot and/or charge after advancing.
Or perhaps they came up with a new Dynasty; as it's in an unfamiliar paint scheme it's possible
I'm pretty sure the color scheme is Maynarkh, which is the Forge World dynasty that the Necron characters come from.
p5freak wrote: Destroyers and/or extermination protocols might get nerfed in the upcoming FAQ round. The singularity generators are obviously not intended for taking out knights. Just wait for the complete rules before you judge the construct.
Umm if high rate of fire S8 Dd6 with mortal wounds isn't intended to take out knights what is? Does weapon need to have D3d6 or something to be knight dealing weapon? Generally I have to deal with knights using low rate high damage or high rate low damage weapons(which often are also wounding on 5+ giving better save to knight).
Incidentally single one of those seems to be almost same as castellan's volcano lance vs knights...Guess volcano lance isn't designated knight killing weapon either.
p5freak wrote: Destroyers and/or extermination protocols might get nerfed in the upcoming FAQ round. The singularity generators are obviously not intended for taking out knights. Just wait for the complete rules before you judge the construct.
Umm if high rate of fire S8 Dd6 with mortal wounds isn't intended to take out knights what is? Does weapon need to have D3d6 or something to be knight dealing weapon? Generally I have to deal with knights using low rate high damage or high rate low damage weapons(which often are also wounding on 5+ giving better save to knight).
Incidentally single one of those seems to be almost same as castellan's volcano lance vs knights...Guess volcano lance isn't designated knight killing weapon either.
I feel like people around here expect too much of this model. It's supposed to be a knight equivalent, yet people are disappointed it can "only" almost halfway kill a knight in one round. A knight won't reliably kill another knight in a single round of shooting, so why would this?
And if we compare it to a knight, these weapons together are like a gatling cannon with more strength, ap and damage, which I feel is quite strong. And we don't even know its defensive capabilities yet, let alone any other abilities it will probably have.
Kahi the Uncertain wrote: I feel like people around here expect too much of this model. It's supposed to be a knight equivalent, yet people are disappointed it can "only" almost halfway kill a knight in one round. A knight won't reliably kill another knight in a single round of shooting, so why would this?
And if we compare it to a knight, these weapons together are like a gatling cannon with more strength, ap and damage, which I feel is quite strong. And we don't even know its defensive capabilities yet, let alone any other abilities it will probably have.
Yeah. I mean above was calculation showing 10 wounds and spare vs knight for pair(so about 5 and spare for single). Castellan's volcano lance does 6 and spare so about wound difference. Sure it's not volcano lance equilavent but also it's more reliable(more dice). Of course depends on price etc how good model will be but stat wise that seems to me quite nice knight killer(and better than anything orks can hope to have and not much IG has that's better except shadowsword. Funny. I went "oh nice one against knights" seeing profiles and then I read it's not titan killer Perception differences!
Also IMO game doesn't benefit if everything is one shotting another. Too much alpha striking. One reason I like rules for adeptus titanicus is actually that things DON'T get just insta vaporized instantly. 40k has been upping lethality up to ridiculous levels by throwing in offensive boosts on top of offensive boosts and leaving defence lagging driving things toward extremes.
MACRO guns are designed to kill TITANIC units, because they do double damage. A gun which ignores, or has a negative modifier to inv saves, would also be nice to kill knights.
p5freak wrote: MACRO guns are designed to kill TITANIC units, because they do double damage. A gun which ignores, or has a negative modifier to inv saves, would also be nice to kill knights.
So basically only titans are then designed to kill knights...
Of course you are talking about guns that are mounted on chassises to whom knights are mostly minor annoyance and good target practice...
So basically only titans are then designed to kill knights...
Yes, but as you know, everything in this edition can wound everything. Those singularity generators can kill a knight, but they are not designed for that job.
So basically only titans are then designed to kill knights...
Yes, but as you know, everything in this edition can wound everything. Those singularity generators can kill a knight, but they are not designed for that job.
So basically nothing in 40k outside apoc is designed to kill a knight...No knight is equipped with anti-knight weapon, shadowsword isn't designed to kill knights etc etc etc etc.
Macro weapons are not designed to kill knights but titans. War on whole new level. Knights are ants to the targets macro weapons are designed to kill.
Yeah the new Forgeworld model is not too bad at killing Knights. Though it really shouldn't be it's main job anyways. There absolutely should be some good anti-tank options in the main Codex, and while I think that the Doomsday Ark is ok at it (though unreliable for sure), the increase in Invuln saves being tacked onto big models kind of detracts from this. An odd decision for sure by GW.
For me, the concern is more that we will end up paying close to castellan points costs with nowhere near the survivability or extra capability that a castellan can have. My point is simply that if that's the case, it adds nothing to our playbook in terms of competitive play.
Maelstrom808 wrote: For me, the concern is more that we will end up paying close to castellan points costs with nowhere near the survivability or extra capability that a castellan can have. My point is simply that if that's the case, it adds nothing to our playbook in terms of competitive play.
Well I'm not going to open my wrists with just current info. Which is basically it's knight sized model with basically rapid fire lascannon that traded blip of S to blip of AP(not best of trades but it also shoots 6x as much and causes MW's). So far nothing shown gives me bad vibes.
Well except it's resin so GW is unlikely to let be good. Even if it would be good but not broken GW would likely give it 300% point hike on next CA.
And that's exactly why I'm wary. FW has a terrible track record of making knight level models competitive this edition. Not to mention GW's apparent belief that Necrons are fine.
I'm not worried about the FW part. I'm worried about GW slapping resin tax for the point cost like they did with CA where resin stuff got huge price hikes just to ensure players buy the more profitable plastic kits.
Do you think this is a workable list for 1000 points beer & pretzel games?
The Idea is to have a lot of mobility with Veil of Darkness, Vargard Obyron and deepstriking Deathmarks.
The Cryptek sticks with the 10 Immortals and teleports them into rapid fire range to get +1 AP from Mephrit.
Deathmarks do the same with the option to snipe an important character (Maybe split them into 2 units of 5 for flexibility?).
Vargard and his Lychguard teleport into cc with whatever needs to die. The Tesla Immortals are just filler.
The Wraiths are there for the cool factor / distraction carnifex.
Spoiler:
Portcrons
++ Patrol Detachment (Necrons) [31 PL, 620pts] ++
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Mephrit
+ HQ +
Cryptek [5 PL, 95pts]: Artefact: The Veil of Darkness, Chronometron, Staff of Light
. Warlord: Warlord Trait (Codex 3): Immortal Pride
iGuy91 wrote: ^^^
That list is pretty beer and pretzels. It could be ok depending on who you are fighting.
Personal preference i'd drop the deathmarks, but thats just me.
Otherwise, i'd think about the likelyhood you run into tanks. Your strongest weapon is str7...and those are melee weapons. Just food for thought.
Yeah, it's supposed to be a bit...different. I suppose I'd have to try and ignore the Tanks and just cripple the rest of the army while taking objectives with a strong alpha strike.
At 1000 points there shouldn't be that much armor walking around, should there?
Edit: There's also the Disruption Field Stratagem to push those Lychguard to S8 if necessary.
Ideally. But if it was guard for example, 1-2 leman russes wouldn't be unusual, or otherwise transports. My 1k marines have 3 razorbacks with all my troops in them for example.
You could, technically, drop the deathmarks, and go for a 10 man lychguard squad. Teleport them up, MWBD, its a gimmick, but its a fun gimmick. That, and you have at that point a nasty little squad there.
iGuy91 wrote: Ideally. But if it was guard for example, 1-2 leman russes wouldn't be unusual, or otherwise transports. My 1k marines have 3 razorbacks with all my troops in them for example.
You could, technically, drop the deathmarks, and go for a 10 man lychguard squad. Teleport them up, MWBD, its a gimmick, but its a fun gimmick. That, and you have at that point a nasty little squad there.
Obyron sadly doesn't have MWBD, but a flat reroll 1s for Sautekh Infantry wound rolls, so that's better than nothing. I know Deathmarks are not considered to be particularly great, but I like their synergy with Mephrit and the "Talent for Annihilation" stratagem when fishing for 6s, which is why I want maximum volume of fire on these guys. They will also help me destroy characters with Mortal Wounds and claim remote objectives. I just love the idea of their concept -maybe they'll get a points reduction in the next CA.
BertBert wrote: Do you think this is a workable list for 1000 points beer & pretzel games?
The Idea is to have a lot of mobility with Veil of Darkness, Vargard Obyron and deepstriking Deathmarks.
The Cryptek sticks with the 10 Immortals and teleports them into rapid fire range to get +1 AP from Mephrit.
Deathmarks do the same with the option to snipe an important character (Maybe split them into 2 units of 5 for flexibility?).
Vargard and his Lychguard teleport into cc with whatever needs to die. The Tesla Immortals are just filler.
The Wraiths are there for the cool factor / distraction carnifex.
Spoiler:
Portcrons
++ Patrol Detachment (Necrons) [31 PL, 620pts] ++
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Mephrit
+ HQ +
Cryptek [5 PL, 95pts]: Artefact: The Veil of Darkness, Chronometron, Staff of Light
. Warlord: Warlord Trait (Codex 3): Immortal Pride
The list won't work as you describe though, since Obyron's ghostwalk mantle has to teleport him to within 6" of Zahndrekh, and you don't have Zahndrekh in the list
The list won't work as you describe though, since Obyron's ghostwalk mantle has to teleport him to within 6" of Zahndrekh, and you don't have Zahndrekh in the list
Yup, you are right, I totally misread that passage. Back to the drawing board then.
Wraiths +10 LG (getting re-rolls to hit on the charge and try to keep the overlord up for the MWBD .. a stratagem for extra strength and run the cryptek over to add +1 to RP
and 5 Deathmarks for some turn 2/3 backline assassining.
5 deathmarks aren't that effective at assassination. I mean, that is their job and on paper they could probably kill a minor character, but in practice they will most likely fail. If you want a good chance of them actually doing their job you need about 10 of them, and they will probably die soon after arriving.
They really need that marking ability they had in 5th.
That would increase their lethality, and its not unbalanced as you can only use it on one target per game.
tneva82 wrote: Macro weapons are not designed to kill knights but titans. War on whole new level. Knights are ants to the targets macro weapons are designed to kill.
Maybe you didn't notice. MACRO weapons deal double damage to units with the TITANIC keyword. Knights do have that TITANIC keyword. So those weapons primary targets are TITANIC units. Of course you can kill a knight with other weapons. These singularity guns simply aren't the best choice to do it. Because of only S8 and random D6 damage. In competitive play you should aim for wounding on 3+ if possible.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: 5 deathmarks aren't that effective at assassination. I mean, that is their job and on paper they could probably kill a minor character, but in practice they will most likely fail. If you want a good chance of them actually doing their job you need about 10 of them, and they will probably die soon after arriving.
it's 1000 pts and I had 106 left over ... and as I knew OP had some models thought he could use them
otherwise I'd say maybe use flayed ones for the Novokh synergy.
but I'm biased I love flayed ones, even as gimped as they are
Lord with HyperPhase Sword
Overlord with VoD, Staff of Light
x10 Tesla Immortals
x10 Telsa immortals
x10 Warriors
x4 Scarabs to absorb smites and turn 1 knight charges
x5 Wraiths
x6 Destroyers
Doomsday Ark
Gauss Pylon
I figure between the DDA, Pylon, and Destroyers with EP, I should almost certainly kill the knight (Likely a Gallant) turn 1.
Then, the pylon starts blasting drones, and dda switches to tanks. Destroyers play pinch hitters.
You should have the fire power to deal with the Knight they lack the ++3 and the strat to make it an zombie knight because it is chaos. If he has a ton of pox walkers or cultists you might be lose board control so make sure your Immortals are Tesla for body clearing.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: 5 deathmarks aren't that effective at assassination. I mean, that is their job and on paper they could probably kill a minor character, but in practice they will most likely fail. If you want a good chance of them actually doing their job you need about 10 of them, and they will probably die soon after arriving.
it's 1000 pts and I had 106 left over ... and as I knew OP had some models thought he could use them
otherwise I'd say maybe use flayed ones for the Novokh synergy.
but I'm biased I love flayed ones, even as gimped as they are
Flayed Ones actually have fantastic damage output, but they have the issue of not making it to melee.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Got a game against bugs coming up. How good are our QS vehicles against them? I'm thinking warrior + ark support.
The QS itself at least will be limited usage as tyranids aren't that big on high damage weapons instead using tons of low damage weapons(Dd3 being on the high end...) and drown targets with number of attacks instead.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Got a game against bugs coming up. How good are our QS vehicles against them? I'm thinking warrior + ark support.
The QS itself at least will be limited usage as tyranids aren't that big on high damage weapons instead using tons of low damage weapons(Dd3 being on the high end...) and drown targets with number of attacks instead.
Can't help more than that though.
Yeah, that's what I feared. I guess I could replace the ark with something else, but I kind of want the rerolls and the extra flayers. Maybe I could use flayed ones, but I don't think deep strike will be that useful against them, as I bet he's going to field a lot of gaunts, and that's some good board control. I only have 6 of them anyway. Do nids still ignore morale? They seem to change synapse every edition, and I can't keep up.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: 5 deathmarks aren't that effective at assassination. I mean, that is their job and on paper they could probably kill a minor character, but in practice they will most likely fail. If you want a good chance of them actually doing their job you need about 10 of them, and they will probably die soon after arriving.
it's 1000 pts and I had 106 left over ... and as I knew OP had some models thought he could use them
otherwise I'd say maybe use flayed ones for the Novokh synergy.
but I'm biased I love flayed ones, even as gimped as they are
Flayed Ones actually have fantastic damage output, but they have the issue of not making it to melee.
Yeah, they are still overpriced, but they have a lot of attacks with rerolls and that morale modifier.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So the Monolith and the Nightscythe now explicitly state that the models deployed from the eternity gate or invasion beam now count as having disembarked.
The new tactical reserves rule also mean that you can't even use the Emergency Invasion Beam stratagem in the first turn ? Or is it now a disembarkment even in this case ?
You'd want to keep the monolith in reserve anyway, so its not that big of a deal. The scythe might be trickier though, because I don't think you can do that without the Translocation Crypt.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: You'd want to keep the monolith and nightscythe in reserve anyway, so its not that big of a deal.
A monolith can't drop and use it's eternity gate in the same turn. So you can only put a unit (or two with the stratagem) on the board on T3, and only T3 because after that the units are destroyed.
Nightscythe can't be put in reserve.
Tomb World has become incredibly more risky for marginal gains.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: You'd want to keep the monolith and nightscythe in reserve anyway, so its not that big of a deal.
A monolith can't drop and use it's eternity gate in the same turn. So you can only put a unit (or two with the stratagem) on the board on T3, and only T3 because after that the units are destroyed.
Nightscythe can't be put in reserve.
Tomb World has become incredibly more risky for marginal gains.
Yeah, and a monolith only has 6" movement, meaning that there's no point in deploying it on the field. Its going to take 3 turns to get the monolith in position anyway. Not to mention that if it starts on the field, you can bet that every gun will be pointed towards it on turn 1. You have to deep strike the monolith if you want to get any mileage out of it. The fact that it has to wait a turn before using the gate is a problem too. Still better than it getting focused down on the first turn though, and at least if it gets destroyed on the second you can use the Emergency stratagem, which you can't use on the first turn now.
No first turn DS is a little annoying for destroyers, I quite often dropped them in my DZ on turn 1 when going second.
Our vehicles don't benefit as much from being in cover as those with a 3+ sv do.
The Sautekh WL trait is slightly less good now.
I can't see this FAQ having any impact on the way I write lists.
Yeah, and a monolith only has 6" movement, meaning that there's no point in deploying it on the field. Its going to take 3 turns to get the monolith in position anyway. Not to mention that if it starts on the field, you can bet that every gun will be pointed towards it on turn 1. You have to deep strike the monolith if you want to get any mileage out of it.
I would only use the monolith with the Deceiver, and the dimensional corridor strat. It's just bad though.
I always waited second turn before dropping destroyers, so I could see where my opponent moves and if there are any openings I can exploit, so it doesn't impact me at all.
Doesn't the fly change mean that, by raw, any model receiving a second move in for example the psychic phase won't have the benefit of the fly keyword if they have it? Or does the wording of the powers circumvent this?
Kahi the Uncertain wrote: Doesn't the fly change mean that, by raw, any model receiving a second move in for example the psychic phase won't have the benefit of the fly keyword if they have it? Or does the wording of the powers circumvent this?
Wrong thread ? You should be asking this in the BA tactics thread.
I know warptime says it gets to move as if its the movement phase so it probably isnt an issue.
Back to necrons, as a silver tide player i am loving the idea of 3+/5++ turn 1 protection. It may not make a lot of difference but all we need is 1 warrior left alive to get our reanimation proto's, so yeah this is great!
Kahi the Uncertain wrote: Doesn't the fly change mean that, by raw, any model receiving a second move in for example the psychic phase won't have the benefit of the fly keyword if they have it? Or does the wording of the powers circumvent this?
Wrong thread ? You should be asking this in the BA tactics thread.
No. In my meta warptimed daemon princes and wings of sanguinius'd dreadnoughts are prevalent in bypassing my screens, so I was just wondering
Kahi the Uncertain wrote: Doesn't the fly change mean that, by raw, any model receiving a second move in for example the psychic phase won't have the benefit of the fly keyword if they have it? Or does the wording of the powers circumvent this?
Wrong thread ? You should be asking this in the BA tactics thread.
No. In my meta warptimed daemon princes and wings of sanguinius'd dreadnoughts are prevalent in bypassing my screens, so I was just wondering
Well, wings of sanguinius gives you the FLY keyword and 12" movement until your next psychic phase, so you can can still move 12" in the psychic phase, as if you were in the movement phase. So you still ignore terrain/models.
Well, wings of sanguinius gives you the FLY keyword and 12" movement until your next psychic phase, so you can can still move 12" in the psychic phase, as if you were in the movement phase. So you still ignore terrain/models.
We should be able to use the Deceiver to Grand Illusion the Monolith up and then disembark like a transport now, though, at least. Or a Night Scythe if you wanted to with the Deceiver.
Then invasion beam stuff in on turn one since it acts like disembarking.
FAQ wrote:Page 98 – Monolith, Eternity Gate Change the penultimate sentence of this ability to read: ‘Set up the unit so that it is wholly within 3" of this model and more than 1" from any enemy models; the unit that has just been set up counts as having disembarked from a transport for all rules purposes.’ Page 102 – Night Scythe, Invasion Beams Change the penultimate sentence of this ability to read: ‘Set up the unit so that it is wholly within 3" of this model and more than 1" from any enemy models; the unit that has just been set up counts as having disembarked from a transport for all rules purposes.’
Bizazedo wrote: We should be able to use the Deceiver to Grand Illusion the Monolith up and then disembark like a transport now, though, at least. Or a Night Scythe if you wanted to with the Deceiver.
Then invasion beam stuff in on turn one since it acts like disembarking.
FAQ wrote:Page 98 – Monolith, Eternity Gate Change the penultimate sentence of this ability to read: ‘Set up the unit so that it is wholly within 3" of this model and more than 1" from any enemy models; the unit that has just been set up counts as having disembarked from a transport for all rules purposes.’ Page 102 – Night Scythe, Invasion Beams Change the penultimate sentence of this ability to read: ‘Set up the unit so that it is wholly within 3" of this model and more than 1" from any enemy models; the unit that has just been set up counts as having disembarked from a transport for all rules purposes.’
Turn one charges inc.
Interesting indeed. It may note have been their intention.
Question is - these guys are clearly not setup on the battlefield during deployment, so as such would be caught by the turn 2 reinforcements rule. In that sense it means little if they are treated as disembarking from a transport. they still weren't setup on the battlefield during deployment.
Bizazedo wrote: We should be able to use the Deceiver to Grand Illusion the Monolith up and then disembark like a transport now, though, at least. Or a Night Scythe if you wanted to with the Deceiver.
Then invasion beam stuff in on turn one since it acts like disembarking.
FAQ wrote:Page 98 – Monolith, Eternity Gate Change the penultimate sentence of this ability to read: ‘Set up the unit so that it is wholly within 3" of this model and more than 1" from any enemy models; the unit that has just been set up counts as having disembarked from a transport for all rules purposes.’ Page 102 – Night Scythe, Invasion Beams Change the penultimate sentence of this ability to read: ‘Set up the unit so that it is wholly within 3" of this model and more than 1" from any enemy models; the unit that has just been set up counts as having disembarked from a transport for all rules purposes.’
Turn one charges inc.
Currently, no. Even though they count as disembarking from a Transport, they are also still treated as reinforcements. They just have additional rules granted by the vehicle that they disembark from.
Normally, I'd agree with you guys, except for two things.
This change to the Monolith and the NScythe were done during this FAQ in joint with tactical reserve.
And
FAQ wrote:
the unit that has just been set up counts as having disembarked from a transport for all rules purposes.
That means it's considered as being from a transport, not reserves. The rest is just to preserve the "if the only monolith / NScythe dies, everything dies".
According to the new Reserve Rules:
Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as
reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.
This would still affect the unit you wish to pull with a Monolith or with a Night Scythe, as, rules as written, they would still need to be pulled from reserves before they would be treated as disembarking as normal. That part of the rule applies after the unit has been selected from reserves in the first place.
Oh cool, another utterly unnecessary nerf to one of our CC units. Why did they do that to Wraiths? If you play with a lot of terrian this isn't even just a minor nerf either, it's significant. They have wraithflight, ignoring terrain at all times is the ENTIRE POINT
Cynista wrote: Oh cool, another utterly unnecessary nerf to one of our CC units. Why did they do that to Wraiths? If you play with a lot of terrian this isn't even just a minor nerf either, it's significant. They have wraithflight, ignoring terrain at all times is the ENTIRE POINT
I think it's mostly for consistency reasons. Harlequins got the same thing.
Darsath wrote: According to the new Reserve Rules:
Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as
reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.
This would still affect the unit you wish to pull with a Monolith or with a Night Scythe, as, rules as written, they would still need to be pulled from reserves before they would be treated as disembarking as normal. That part of the rule applies after the unit has been selected from reserves in the first place.
That would be true if the FAQ change didn't say we treated them as disembarking from a transport. They're not considered reinforcements.
I know what you're getting at, that originally they're considered on the Tomb World, but the FAQ explicitly says to treat them when disembarking for all rules purposes All rules purposes. And that was added at the same time as the tactical reserves.
Like, let me ask you, why else would you change the wording to that as it only affects disembarking? Why not just leave it as is?
(Not saying I'm right, btw, just find it fascinating. I wouldn't do it yet without opponent buy-in).
Darsath wrote: According to the new Reserve Rules:
Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as
reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.
This would still affect the unit you wish to pull with a Monolith or with a Night Scythe, as, rules as written, they would still need to be pulled from reserves before they would be treated as disembarking as normal. That part of the rule applies after the unit has been selected from reserves in the first place.
That would be true if the FAQ change didn't say we treated them as disembarking from a transport. They're not considered reinforcements.
I know what you're getting at, that originally they're considered on the Tomb World, but the FAQ explicitly says to treat them when disembarking for all rules purposes All rules purposes. And that was added at the same time as the tactical reserves.
Like, let me ask you, why else would you change the wording to that as it only affects disembarking? Why not just leave it as is?
(Not saying I'm right, btw, just find it fascinating. I wouldn't do it yet without opponent buy-in).
That's only if you ignore the first part of the statement:
"Set up the unit so that it is wholly within 3" of this model and more than 1" from any enemy models; the unit that has just been set up counts as having disembarked from a transport for all rules purposes"
Since you have to set them up before you treat them as having disembarked, you can't do on on Turn 1, since you can't Set Up Reserves on Turn 1.
Darsath wrote: According to the new Reserve Rules: Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round.
This would still affect the unit you wish to pull with a Monolith or with a Night Scythe, as, rules as written, they would still need to be pulled from reserves before they would be treated as disembarking as normal. That part of the rule applies after the unit has been selected from reserves in the first place.
I'm inclined to agree with Bizazedo. They are no longer "not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive mid-game as reinforcements", they now arrive as units disembarking from a transport. But as per f*****g usual the necron faq needs an faq, as it's still very much ambiguous and could be either way, both raw and rai.
"Set up the unit so that it is wholly within 3" of this model and more than 1" from any enemy models; the unit that has just been set up counts as having disembarked from a transport for all rules purposes"
Since you have to set them up before you treat them as having disembarked, you can't do on on Turn 1, since you can't Set Up Reserves on Turn 1.
Except that, due to the semicolon use, it's part of the same statement. Semicolons represent a pause, not an order of operation. I know you all are fans of RAW, so, semicolon definition:
Grammar and Punctuation Handbook wrote:
When a semicolon is used to join two or more ideas (parts) in a sentence, those ideas are then given equal position or rank. Some people write with a word processor; others write with a pen or pencil. Use a semicolon between two independent clauses that are connected by conjunctive adverbs or transitional phrases.
"Set up the unit so that it is wholly within 3" of this model and more than 1" from any enemy models; the unit that has just been set up counts as having disembarked from a transport for all rules purposes"
Since you have to set them up before you treat them as having disembarked, you can't do on on Turn 1, since you can't Set Up Reserves on Turn 1.
Except that, due to the semicolon use, it's part of the same statement. Semicolons represent a pause, not an order of operation. I know you all are fans of RAW, so, semicolon definition:
Grammar and Punctuation Handbook wrote:
When a semicolon is used to join two or more ideas (parts) in a sentence, those ideas are then given equal position or rank. Some people write with a word processor; others write with a pen or pencil. Use a semicolon between two independent clauses that are connected by conjunctive adverbs or transitional phrases.
So it happens at the same time.
This is weird, since that would mean that the latter half of the sentence wouldn't take precedence either, since they're both of equal rank. We can read rules and intended, but rules as written, it's kind of contradictory.
"Set up the unit so that it is wholly within 3" of this model and more than 1" from any enemy models; the unit that has just been set up counts as having disembarked from a transport for all rules purposes"
Since you have to set them up before you treat them as having disembarked, you can't do on on Turn 1, since you can't Set Up Reserves on Turn 1.
Except that, due to the semicolon use, it's part of the same statement. Semicolons represent a pause, not an order of operation. I know you all are fans of RAW, so, semicolon definition:
Grammar and Punctuation Handbook wrote:
When a semicolon is used to join two or more ideas (parts) in a sentence, those ideas are then given equal position or rank. Some people write with a word processor; others write with a pen or pencil. Use a semicolon between two independent clauses that are connected by conjunctive adverbs or transitional phrases.
So it happens at the same time.
Dude. Seriously? That makes top 3 pedantic gak I've seen posted here.
Also, the second part of the sentence says "the unit that has just been set up", which indicates there is an ordering. So... you have to set up before you can treat it differently. The sentence structure doesn't even agree with you, if you want to talk about grammar.
This is weird, since that would mean that the latter half of the sentence wouldn't take precedence either, since they're both of equal rank. We can read rules and intended, but rules as written, it's kind of contradictory.
Yeah. I'd like 'em to just clarify it since it looks like it's meant to bypass the deep strike rules, but given what Necron can do if it does if they get lucky enough to go first....I dunno.
Dude. Seriously? That makes top 3 pedantic gak I've seen posted here.
Also, the second part of the sentence says "the unit that has just been set up", which indicates there is an ordering. So... you have to set up before you can treat it differently. The sentence structure doesn't even agree with you, if you want to talk about grammar.
Pfft, I've seen far worse . Any RAW argument is pedantic. If we're not going to discuss what a semicolon means, then it should all be RAI.
And I disagree with you, respectfully.
Respect the semicolon!
I'm not going to continue to harp on it, but I just think it looks like it's meant to bypass the DS rule.
Dude, its supposed to fly into enemy territory and teleport your units in your opponents face. A smart opponent knows this, and will position his units accordingly. I had my xiphon interceptor killed twice that way.
