Salted Diamond wrote: While I understand why everyone is so frustrated with GW over the lack of inventory for pre-orders, can we get some discussion on what was learned from the spoiler video yesterday. What do people think of the other order doctrines, new units, new Exorcist missile options and 3D3 for the standard? Lets get talk about what we are getting instead.
I couldn't find a spoiler video. I'd love to discuss but without a link I can't
Didn't order this new army for it's power level. I just love the Gothic nature of the Sisters and look forward to combining them with Greyfax and an Inquisitorial retinue ready to burn the living hell out of everything heretical.
Salted Diamond wrote: While I understand why everyone is so frustrated with GW over the lack of inventory for pre-orders, can we get some discussion on what was learned from the spoiler video yesterday. What do people think of the other order doctrines, new units, new Exorcist missile options and 3D3 for the standard? Lets get talk about what we are getting instead.
I couldn't find a spoiler video. I'd love to discuss but without a link I can't
Box is side opening - - hmm was hoping it was a top opening
So Mortifier is the variant on Pentent Engine - as thought - hv bolters
Same with Zephrs being Seraphim variants
Canoness can have a Null Rod or Rod of Office
Argent Shroud almost annihilated
Judith is new Canoness Superior
Triumph of St Katherine is as we thought relic guarded by Vererans (18 wounds!)
AOF = 1 per phase, before roll, can not re-roll, use on following: advance, charge, deny, saves, hit, damage, morale, not modifier,
Sacred Rites = must be Ad Min army, choose 1 or roll 2,
Hand of Emp: +1 advance/Charge,
Spirit = 5+ can fire/fight if died
Aegis Deny the Witch has +3
Divine Guide on roll of 6, extera -1 AP Passion hot of 6 with melee is extra hit
Light: re-roll morale
Cannoness - rod office is plus bolt pistol and sword, Blessed Blade +2 st, -3 AP, D3 Dam, Brazier of fire -1 LD Daemons, overwatch,
Celestine - usual
Tri of St Kath - M6, 3+, 3+ S3, T3, 18 W, 14 attacks, - dim profile, 3+, Bolt pistols, swords, 1 in army. S6 swords, S5 relic weapons, ACts fo Faith etc. -1 to hit, Auto pass Sorotias units relics of all matriarchs
Relics: Gain 1 MD each player turn, MW to enemy units in 6"- bonus against Chaos, +1 to hit with Melee wepaons withi 6, extra AOF per phase within 6, Increase or decrease 1MD with AOF by 1.
Character
Judith, 10" move, W7, Character, Fly, S5 in melee, re-roll 1's in 6, Invuln +1 to Sororitas saves.
Missonary = 4+ save against fleeing nearby unit
Battle Sisters - max 15, 2 special or 1 hv 1 special, Censor Chrub - intercede - gain 1 miracle die for that unit, Sim Imperalis - extra Act of Faith
Geminae - same
Repentia Superior (Elite), slotless if Repentia.
Repentia - 4 -9 size, 5+FNP and miracel die when unit dies.
Celestain - same, rerolls when near Cannoness
Zephrhim - Melee Serpahim, powerswords and bolt pistols, re-roll wounds against everything, Deepstrike
Dialogus - +1S staff, +1 LD within 6", 5+ FNP against Mortals her only, re-roll morale,can increase / decrease a MD by 1 used in AOF within 6"
Hospitalier - same,
Imagifier - start if game choose one of three tales:
1, re-roll Deny within 6", 2.-1Ap is 0 whilst within 6" 3. +1 strength within 6"
Crusaders -5+ FNP against MW Death Cults - same
Arco -Frag -now has squad leader, 5+ FNP
Doms - still 4 special and Vanguard,
Serpah - same
Exoricist, 48" range Conflag missiles: HV 3d6 S5, -2AP, Exorcist Hv 3D3, S8, -3 AP HAS AOF and Shield of Faith
Mortifiers 9" move, Hv Bolter Pen Engines - can have squad leader, 3+ save, -1-6 in unit, flails plus Hv Bolters or Hv flamers or buzz blades rather than flails, 6+FNP, can have Assault HV Bolters or pistol Hv Flamers
Retributors - NO pens for move and fire with Hv weapons, +4 " to hv flamer range, 1-2 cherubs - shoot again with one model
Batle Sanctum - terrain - +1 MD if units within 6, +1 LD to AD Sor and -1LD to Chaos within 6" no pics
Order Convs - can inclue Ad Min units without screwing them up
Val Heart - 6+ FNP, -1AP = 0AP stacks with Imagifers so -2 = 0.
Bloody= extra -1 with melee /Bolt pistols, +1 A when charged or charging
Ebon 5+ FNP againt MW, discard a MD - other MD is a 6
Sacred Rose: No more than 1 flee, when use MD on a 5+ get it back, Overwatch on 5+
I guess they are channeling the true spirit of Black Friday - a heavy throng outside a shop waiting to charge in and get physical over a heavily limited selection of discounted items.
Like discount TVs at Tesco's, but more middle class.
Salted Diamond wrote: While I understand why everyone is so frustrated with GW over the lack of inventory for pre-orders, can we get some discussion on what was learned from the spoiler video yesterday. What do people think of the other order doctrines, new units, new Exorcist missile options and 3D3 for the standard? Lets get talk about what we are getting instead.
I couldn't find a spoiler video. I'd love to discuss but without a link I can't
Box is side opening - - hmm was hoping it was a top opening
So Mortifier is the variant on Pentent Engine - as thought - hv bolters
Same with Zephrs being Seraphim variants
Canoness can have a Null Rod or Rod of Office
Argent Shroud almost annihilated
Judith is new Canoness Superior
Triumph of St Katherine is as we thought relic guarded by Vererans (18 wounds!)
AOF = 1 per phase, before roll, can not re-roll, use on following: advance, charge, deny, saves, hit, damage, morale, not modifier,
Sacred Rites = must be Ad Min army, choose 1 or roll 2,
Hand of Emp: +1 advance/Charge,
Spirit = 5+ can fire/fight if died
Aegis Deny the Witch has +3
Divine Guide on roll of 6, extera -1 AP Passion hot of 6 with melee is extra hit
Light: re-roll morale
Cannoness - rod office is plus bolt pistol and sword, Blessed Blade +2 st, -3 AP, D3 Dam, Brazier of fire -1 LD Daemons, overwatch,
Celestine - usual
Tri of St Kath - M6, 3+, 3+ S3, T3, 18 W, 14 attacks, - dim profile, 3+, Bolt pistols, swords, 1 in army. S6 swords, S5 relic weapons, ACts fo Faith etc. -1 to hit, Auto pass Sorotias units relics of all matriarchs
Relics: Gain 1 MD each player turn, MW to enemy units in 6"- bonus against Chaos, +1 to hit with Melee wepaons withi 6, extra AOF per phase within 6, Increase or decrease 1MD with AOF by 1.
Character
Judith, 10" move, W7, Character, Fly, S5 in melee, re-roll 1's in 6, Invuln +1 to Sororitas saves.
Missonary = 4+ save against fleeing nearby unit
Battle Sisters - max 15, 2 special or 1 hv 1 special, Censor Chrub - intercede - gain 1 miracle die for that unit, Sim Imperalis - extra Act of Faith
Geminae - same
Repentia Superior (Elite), slotless if Repentia.
Repentia - 4 -9 size, 5+FNP and miracel die when unit dies.
Celestain - same, rerolls when near Cannoness
Zephrhim - Melee Serpahim, powerswords and bolt pistols, re-roll wounds against everything, Deepstrike
Dialogus - +1S staff, +1 LD within 6", 5+ FNP against Mortals her only, re-roll morale,can increase / decrease a MD by 1 used in AOF within 6"
Hospitalier - same,
Imagifier - start if game choose one of three tales:
1, re-roll Deny within 6", 2.-1Ap is 0 whilst within 6" 3. +1 strength within 6"
Crusaders -5+ FNP against MW Death Cults - same
Arco -Frag -now has squad leader, 5+ FNP
Doms - still 4 special and Vanguard,
Serpah - same
Exoricist, 48" range Conflag missiles: HV 3d6 S5, -2AP, Exorcist Hv 3D3, S8, -3 AP HAS AOF and Shield of Faith
Mortifiers 9" move, Hv Bolter Pen Engines - can have squad leader, 3+ save, -1-6 in unit, flails plus Hv Bolters or Hv flamers or buzz blades rather than flails, 6+FNP, can have Assault HV Bolters or pistol Hv Flamers
Retributors - NO pens for move and fire with Hv weapons, +4 " to hv flamer range, 1-2 cherubs - shoot again with one model
Batle Sanctum - terrain - +1 MD if units within 6, +1 LD to AD Sor and -1LD to Chaos within 6" no pics
Order Convs - can inclue Ad Min units without screwing them up
Val Heart - 6+ FNP, -1AP = 0AP stacks with Imagifers so -2 = 0.
Bloody= extra -1 with melee /Bolt pistols, +1 A when charged or charging
Ebon 5+ FNP againt MW, discard a MD - other MD is a 6
Sacred Rose: No more than 1 flee, when use MD on a 5+ get it back, Overwatch on 5+
It was also posted in the thread earlier*:
Sarouan wrote: At least, Guerilla Miniatures show us what's in the codex
* I would have said “before all the flailing” but that doesn’t actually narrow it down much, unfortunately.
I guess they are channeling the true spirit of Black Friday - a heavy throng outside a shop waiting to charge in and get physical over a heavily limited selection of discounted items.
Like discount TVs at Tesco's, but more middle class.
At least with Tesco it’s in-theme to clear out the crowds with a bulldozer stolen from a nearby building site before using it to block the entrance so you’re guaranteed to get in first.
For this it’d either have to be a heavily remodelled ex-army APC and I don’t want to scratch the paint on mine.
I'm excited AF, mostly because this Codex is a straight buff IMO. The MD is a flat out better system then the Beta by far. Looking forward to forcing enemies decisions because they know I have 1-2 MD ready to go for saves, morale, etc.
Argent Shroud was my Order before, and their trait goes well with my Tallarn Guard, i.e advance w/ no penalty. That said I was considering stripping my metal's and repainting, so a new order might be in order, hehe. Sacred Rose looks particularly strong with its MD rebate.
3d3 Exorcist is awesome! Reliability went up across the board, i think i saw from that video a way to boost that dice roll via strategem. At the end of the day i used my sisters to Alpha strike with melta turn 2 or 3 and with these Strategems and MD I can almost guarentee anti-tank/armour success.
Frankly my biggest concern is blinging out my Exorcist ( its an old Whirlwind model) so that it doesn't suffer " the guy she told you not to worry about" syndrome for the new Exorcist. The new rhino kit, whenever that comes out should do the trick for the near future.
Shinzra wrote: So based on the couple of videos showcasing the codex and rules
How strong do people predict sisters to be with the new book?
Hard to say at this point, they've changed or removed just about everything that you would have been taking in (semi)competitive beta-codex list from the big stuff like 4++ castles, 2d6 deny and vessels down to the small details like stormbolters on vets and their ability to scout dominions in vehicles.
Immolators are probably out, jump troops and walkers in (though sisters are still slow to get any kind of aura up the table), they look to be more glass-canon hitting harder in places but having less defense. They don't look to be able to do all that much much in the way of sniping characters, mortal wounds, or debuffs.
Unfamiliarity will help them for a while until opponents get a better idea of target priority. I don't see them winning any big tournaments, but it's early days.
Shinzra wrote: So based on the couple of videos showcasing the codex and rules How strong do people predict sisters to be with the new book?
Hard to say at this point, they've changed or removed just about everything that you would have been taking in (semi)competitive beta-codex list from the big stuff like 4++ castles, 2d6 deny and vessels down to the small details like stormbolters on vets and their ability to scout dominions in vehicles.
Immolators are probably out, jump troops and walkers in (though sisters are still slow to get any kind of aura up the table), they look to be more glass-canon hitting harder in places but having less defense. They don't look to be able to do all that much much in the way of sniping characters, mortal wounds, or debuffs.
Unfamiliarity will help them for a while until opponents get a better idea of target priority. I don't see them winning any big tournaments, but it's early days.
To be perfectly honest, if dominions not scouting in vehicles isn't a typo, Sisters are trash. Sacred rites are pathetic, Miracle dice are irrelevant because nothing that can use them is any good, everything that isn't a penitent unit is massively overpriced(exorcist) or just straight up worthless(zephyrim, dominions now, the folly of saint who cares, etc)
You might see a morifier/pengine horde list with appropriate ally support do okay in an event where they run into a lot of daemon armies but I don't think they really have the tools to stand up against necrons and CSM, let alone Space marnines, tau, guard, eldar, etc.
And technically infantry horde is largely unchanged so you might now legitimately have to worry about a 150 power armor models immune to rend -2 with a 4+ invul becoming a thing. They won't kill anything of yours but they camp all of the objectives and the game will end on time mid-way through turn two.
bullyboy wrote: And the stream of "it's trash" comments so central to Dakka conversations begins...
Not everything is trash.
Dominions however are a mechanised scout unit (in earlier editions you literally couldn't take them without a vehicle), and they appear to have lost their ability to scout with their transport.
Salted Diamond wrote: While I understand why everyone is so frustrated with GW over the lack of inventory for pre-orders, can we get some discussion on what was learned from the spoiler video yesterday. What do people think of the other order doctrines, new units, new Exorcist missile options and 3D3 for the standard? Lets get talk about what we are getting instead.
I couldn't find a spoiler video. I'd love to discuss but without a link I can't
It was available for 3 minutes between website crashes for the first few lucky people.
bullyboy wrote: And the stream of "it's trash" comments so central to Dakka conversations begins...
Didn't take long.
Fine, let me rephase. The army is not trash, the book is just written oddly with questionable internal balance and some headscratching decisions. Spoilers for full salt.
There were a few random nerfs to certain units that didn't really need them,
Spoiler:
a complete butchering of dominions(why are they even still in the book if they can't scout anymore?) the only situation where battle sisters wouldn't be a better option, allies certainly would be.
, exorcist going up 36% despite losing their 4++ invul option is not made up with it's additional damage. (7.78 vs the old 5.44 vs a rhino).Celestians still aren't as good as battle sisters. The Immolator went up 12 points despite the additional heavy bolter making it worse. The Geminae superia continuing to be the worst unit in the game.(not salt just fact). Hospitaller is still not an efficient take. Missionaries going up was odd.
Then you have the new sororitas units being Zephyrim who are on par with assault marines in combat despite being more expensive. The Battle sanctum is fine but you'll probably not take it unless you're doing a brigade+battalion setup.The triumph of saint katherine is
Spoiler:
unbelievably terrible. It's a sigmar unit that wouldn't be good in sigmar. It being the same price as a daemon prince of Tzeentch with wings with what it does is bonkers.
The miracle dice system is fine but a lot of the best units in the army can't take advantage of them OR generate them. The sacred rites are more of a way of making you feel less bad about playing a 100% sisters army than an incentive to do so. Allies will still certainly be preferable. This is unfortunate considering how good doctrines are.
For good stuff, retributors getting move and shoot at full is nice, so is extra range on flamers. Seraphim getting Melta on deepstrike is great considering it means you can generate miracle dice in the movement phase AND AoF them without being in the shooting phase. Penitent Engines and Mortifiers are fantastic. Arcos getting cheaper was nice, same with repentia. Battle sisters can still technically take Stormbolters on their sergeants due to the index so that combined with the miracle dice means they're still a good take. Exorcists getting an alternate firing mode, while not in practice a great option, is certainly something that could be taken advantage of going forward. Rhinos went down like 2 points so that's something.
Characters are almost all solid, canoness, imagifiers, dialogus, Floaty lady, repentia superia and preachers all bring something useful to table. Stratagems are a mixed bag but have some good ones, warlord traits are really good, relics are pretty good, convictions are pretty good.
It mostly just seems really odd to me that despite this very robust miracle dice system AND sacred rites, the on paper 3 best units in the codex are penitent engnies, mortifiers, and arcos who cannot benefit from either.
Didn't an article say that Dominions still have a vanguard rule? Can't they either infiltrate up the table or get a bonus move in the deployment phase or something? They mention them as 'forward scouting vehicle killers', but what does their datasheet have?
I do like a lot of the synergy I'm seeing in some of the units. Dialogus and Imagifier being great pics. Yeah, they lose access to a lot of their invul saves, but imo, invul saves are a boring way to buff an army, and the old strats relying on static castles, celestine babysitting exorcists, and whatnot wasn't fluffy or interesting at all. I think the ability to use miracle dice is probably why they got rid of a few of the invul save abilities, since you can modify the miracle dice, roll quite a few, and get the saves you want. Having 3+ armor across the board is pretty solid.
The Battle Sanctum generating miracle dice seems solid, and only being power level 3 tells me it'll likely be a cheap way to do so.
A lot of other things are going to depend on point values in the end. I'm still thrilled about the army and can already see a few themed lists coming together. I don't think they'll rely completely on penitent engines and arco flaggellants. Yeah they're good melee units, but melee can be kinda meh in 40k at times. Would rather have solid firepower in the form of Immolators, Retributors, Battle Sister Squads, and Exorcists, and it looks like all of those are going to be decent units.
The dominions themselves still do, people bitch about them not giving the same rule to the transport driving them around.
As if that rule ever made sense that if you put a "scout" unit and a "heavy" unit in the same car it somehow changes that car's abilities.
This codex is chock-full of synrgies, and better still-it has a MASSIVE number of choices to make after the game started (heck, you pick some of you "army traits" AFTER seeing what you face!), meaning it would be, more than any codex before it, an army that polarizes skill from netlists.
So that's why people call it trash, because some people can't do any level of basic tactics or strategy beyond playing the strongest raw-power netlist with the least number of choices to make.
I suspect and hope a good SoB army would not be geared to hyper-focus on one strategy, but instead be built as TAC force that adjusts it's traits and powers according to the opponent they face.
Because it sure seems like that's the direction GW aimed for, and I for one like it.
BoomWolf wrote: The dominions themselves still do, people bitch about them not giving the same rule to the transport driving them around.
As if that rule ever made sense that if you put a "scout" unit and a "heavy" unit in the same car it somehow changes that car's abilities.
This codex is chock-full of synrgies, and better still-it has a MASSIVE number of choices to make after the game started (heck, you pick some of you "army traits" AFTER seeing what you face!), meaning it would be, more than any codex before it, an army that polarizes skill from netlists.
So that's why people call it trash, because some people can't do any level of basic tactics or strategy beyond playing the strongest raw-power netlist with the least number of choices to make.
I suspect and hope a good SoB army would not be geared to hyper-focus on one strategy, but instead be built as TAC force that adjusts it's traits and powers according to the opponent they face.
Because it sure seems like that's the direction GW aimed for, and I for one like it.
I feel the same way. But then, I've always regarded people that say faction A or X or M 'is trash' as people that really need to chill. Except Grey Knights players. I do feel kinda bad for them right now, but here's not the time.
I also have a feeling that this Codex, like the Space Marine Codex, was probably written with whatever is coming in June in mind. If we are getting 9th edition (or 8.5 or 8th 2.0 or whatever you want to call it), then I bet some of the rules here that may not seem very powerful might suddenly rise up to prominence with the wording of new rules in the future.
Also, seeing a lot of the synergy of denying the witch, getting extra bonuses to morale... suddenly it might be easier to generate more Miracle Dice than I thought!
I'm already thinking up a classic battle sisters list with plenty of 10-sister squads in rhinos, Exorcists on the back line, Immolators running up packed with Dominions... and a Battle Sanctum bristling with Retributors!
Bdrone wrote:to
because i 100% my order as Argent shroud, i can't use Junith. im not sure of the Triumph of Saint Katherine, and i also would like to know why it wasn't called the reliquary of the saints.
why cant you use Junith as someone from Argent Shroud?
ERJAK wrote: To be perfectly honest, if dominions not scouting in vehicles isn't a typo, Sisters are trash. Sacred rites are pathetic, Miracle dice are irrelevant because nothing that can use them is any good, everything that isn't a penitent unit is massively overpriced(exorcist) or just straight up worthless(zephyrim, dominions now, the folly of saint who cares, etc)
Emperor's blood! Look at all that negativity. Are you a Sisters player?
ERJAK wrote: To be perfectly honest, if dominions not scouting in vehicles isn't a typo, Sisters are trash. Sacred rites are pathetic, Miracle dice are irrelevant because nothing that can use them is any good, everything that isn't a penitent unit is massively overpriced(exorcist) or just straight up worthless(zephyrim, dominions now, the folly of saint who cares, etc)
Emperor's blood! Look at all that negativity. Are you a Sisters player?
I'm guessing not. the couple of local Sororitas I've spoken with are really happy with what's been revealed so far.
I cant wait for my journey into Sororitas to continue.
Bdrone wrote:to
because i 100% my order as Argent shroud, i can't use Junith. im not sure of the Triumph of Saint Katherine, and i also would like to know why it wasn't called the reliquary of the saints.
why cant you use Junith as someone from Argent Shroud?
Because she has a fixed Order (martyred lady) and so would mess up the faction bonus.
Which isn’t to say you can’t paint her silver; you just have to run the whole army as silver martyred ladies if you do.
Sotahullu wrote:I am bit baffled with Zephyrims as what role those could fill?
Would make more sense if you could have chainsword and/or eviscerators to give more varierity.
Rubenite wrote:You mean you haven't played with the Geminae and thought 'A whole unit of these would be absolutely amazing!'...
They could go well with Bloody Rose (+1A and improve melee AP by 1), and/or have an Imagifier (+1S) near by and they would make a good counter charge unit.
Galas wrote: Werent geminae an addon to Celestine?
Yes, but they were created in a time when characters could be part of squads, and bodyguards were actual things, and various parts of command squads weren't separated out into their own units.
Galas wrote: Werent geminae an addon to Celestine?
Yes, but they were created in a time when characters could be part of squads, and bodyguards were actual things, and various parts of command squads weren't separated out into their own units.
I hadnt saw Celestine rules since the Index... I have see her now. Wow, just wow, talk about overnerf.
The only thing I can say is... "Look how they massacred my girl"
l0k1 wrote: So maybe I missed the memo, but wasnt the new models and codex supposed to be up for preorder? Or was the preorder just for the bundle box?
Just the bundle. The sisters release is next year.
l0k1 wrote: So maybe I missed the memo, but wasnt the new models and codex supposed to be up for preorder? Or was the preorder just for the bundle box?
Just the bundle. The sisters release is next year.
So if you didnt get the bundle you'll have to wait til next year to get the codex too? Wow, that's pretty lame.
Rubenite wrote: You mean you haven't played with the Geminae and thought 'A whole unit of these would be absolutely amazing!'...
S3 Power Swords is not great but at least they get to re-roll wound rolls.
17 points for 2 attacks though?
With Bloody Rose to make it 3 attacks and AP-4 (marginally useful but it comes up with Marines), and their stratagem for +1 to wound (and maybe the Passion/other synergies) you potentially have something - but without that degree of buffs that point above seems insurmountable.
Galas wrote: I hadnt saw Celestine rules since the Index... I have see her now. Wow, just wow, talk about overnerf.
The only thing I can say is... "Look how they massacred my girl"
Pretty much all of that was done in the beta, which is why her main use recently has been as part of the 4++ save castle.
Can you guess the one nerf they made to her in the final codex?
My most played army for nearly a year was Celestine + 4 squads of 5 SoS + Custodes.
I stoped using Celestine after they killed Imperum Soup. To see her in this state... I was really excited for being able to use her again... She wasnt even that good after the price hikes. But hey Daemon Princes are still out there.
Bdrone wrote:to
because i 100% my order as Argent shroud, i can't use Junith...
why cant you use Junith as someone from Argent Shroud?
because if your not willing to use detachments with different suborders, you lose the order bonuses in the detachment. since i planned for pure argent shroud well before this codex, junith can't be run without causing me that issue. thats on top of the fact i find them making junith at all a problem because just about every sister character with a model is or was order of our martyred lady, and then not making the model generic a real waste. such a model could have easily been like the catacomb command barge in necrons, and instead of our canonesses getting wings- an idea many people put forward, getting a mega pulpit to het forward on would have actually been vaguely cool and definately something people didn't expect... but thats not the case here.
if your run OoML mayeb she's worth a look, but personally its a pass, like some of the new models just flat out are to me until i see the concepts tested enough.
l0k1 wrote: So maybe I missed the memo, but wasnt the new models and codex supposed to be up for preorder? Or was the preorder just for the bundle box?
Just the bundle. The sisters release is next year.
So if you didnt get the bundle you'll have to wait til next year to get the codex too? Wow, that's pretty lame.
Not if you had been paying attention to the buildup. It's been very transparent.
l0k1 wrote: So maybe I missed the memo, but wasnt the new models and codex supposed to be up for preorder? Or was the preorder just for the bundle box?
Just the bundle. The sisters release is next year.
So if you didnt get the bundle you'll have to wait til next year to get the codex too? Wow, that's pretty lame.
Not if you had been paying attention to the buildup. It's been very transparent.
To be fair, people can be paying attention, know full well its going to happen, not even bother to try get one, and still feel its lame.
Because the fact that they didn't even try to produce a stock level that could last a full hour is pretty much proof that they didn't produce enough and didn't do the very obvious legwork that would have given them a better estimate.
Doubly so since this isn't a new phenomenon. When ghouls vs. rats sell out despite being mostly old models, there is a noticeable problem with production levels.
Bdrone wrote:to
because i 100% my order as Argent shroud, i can't use Junith. im not sure of the Triumph of Saint Katherine, and i also would like to know why it wasn't called the reliquary of the saints.
why cant you use Junith as someone from Argent Shroud?
Because she has a fixed Order (martyred lady) and so would mess up the faction bonus.
Which isn’t to say you can’t paint her silver; you just have to run the whole army as silver martyred ladies if you do.
Depends on your group. If you're in an area heavy on tournaments and strict matched play then yes she would needin a million years be aallowed in a non OoOML detachment.
If you're in a relaxed group that favour narrative and using the rules as a guideline not intended to get in the way of their idea of fun. Then yes, you can absolutely use her to represent (insert fluff text) .
I'm fortunate enough to be in one of these groups, so I'll be happy to grab her and use her in my non OoOML Order.
Rubenite wrote: You mean you haven't played with the Geminae and thought 'A whole unit of these would be absolutely amazing!'...
S3 Power Swords is not great but at least they get to re-roll wound rolls.
17 points for 2 attacks though?
With Bloody Rose to make it 3 attacks and AP-4 (marginally useful but it comes up with Marines), and their stratagem for +1 to wound (and maybe the Passion/other synergies) you potentially have something - but without that degree of buffs that point above seems insurmountable.
They'll likely suffer from the same issue as assault marines/vanguard vets.
The nice thing is they get a 5+ invul, but t3 and s3 hurts. Re-rolling wounds is a VERY nice bonus, which means they can put some hurt on things a lot tougher than they are, but getting that +1 str will make the difference between wounding t6 and t7 things on 6's and 5's.
But, if you can get them where you want them, give them a few buffs (throw some rhinos full of characters up where they need to be to give them the buffs), and use the right strats and order, they could be a devastating blender. AP-3 is nothing to sneeze at, and I could see them decimating squads of primaris, chewing through vehicles, and doing what assault units do best: lock something down to prevent it from shooting.
Aibishter wrote: Do you play celestine without geminea? Should I try to buy her model separately from ebay without them?
If you can. The Geminae are so terrible that they're actively detrimental to your chances of winning the game. I wouldn't take them if they were free because they're less valuable than possibly denying your opponent an incredibly easy kill point.
Rubenite wrote: You mean you haven't played with the Geminae and thought 'A whole unit of these would be absolutely amazing!'...
S3 Power Swords is not great but at least they get to re-roll wound rolls.
17 points for 2 attacks though?
With Bloody Rose to make it 3 attacks and AP-4 (marginally useful but it comes up with Marines), and their stratagem for +1 to wound (and maybe the Passion/other synergies) you potentially have something - but without that degree of buffs that point above seems insurmountable.
They'll likely suffer from the same issue as assault marines/vanguard vets.
The nice thing is they get a 5+ invul, but t3 and s3 hurts. Re-rolling wounds is a VERY nice bonus, which means they can put some hurt on things a lot tougher than they are, but getting that +1 str will make the difference between wounding t6 and t7 things on 6's and 5's.
But, if you can get them where you want them, give them a few buffs (throw some rhinos full of characters up where they need to be to give them the buffs), and use the right strats and order, they could be a devastating blender. AP-3 is nothing to sneeze at, and I could see them decimating squads of primaris, chewing through vehicles, and doing what assault units do best: lock something down to prevent it from shooting.
Rerolling wounds is a mediocre bonus because it means you wound T4 and T5 barely more than half the time and wound T6+ on worse than a 5+. Even with AP -3 they hit about as hard as a pool noodle. Take 10 of them against marines, that's 170pts or right around the same price as a daemon prince. In a Vacuum, 10 Zephyrim is 170pts=21*.667*.58*.833= 3.5 dead intercessors. 10 Assault marines with 8 BP chainsword, 1 Powerfist, 1 eviscerator is 170pts=24*.667*.5*.333+3*.5*.833*.833*2+2*.5*.833*2= 3.5 dead intercessors. Zephyrim start off exactly as good as assault marines, point for point. That is a BAD place to be. Even with bloody rose and the strat, their output isn't particularly impressive. (Interestingly, with blood rose and the sacred rite they would almost certainly be doing more damage with chainswords than powerswords.)
More buffs beyond BR and the strat is impratical and inefficient, especially when you consider that anything with an invul will essentially invalidate them.
If you're doing the rhino thing, just run repentia or Arcos. They're both massively better in combat. If you're doing the overlapping buffs into the stratosphere, repentia are probably better.
They'll never get up to blender status simply due to the impracticality of getting them significant buffs. Take them if you like their models but don't expect a whole lot out of them. They're our version of Assault marines, a unit people take because they like them and at the end of every game have this conversation: 'I know I shouldn't take them but I think they're cool. Nah man I get ya."
I'm quite new to this, i'm joining the sister ranks just now since i managed to order a box, but why so much negativity about the gemini?
Going by the beta codex they are characters, so wouldn't they be quite hard to kill just cause of this?
I could totally see getting one for 25 points. It is a small harasser that when killed gives me a MD. Yes, she probably isn't going to hurt much, but 3 power swords attack and a krak grenade are not so bad on a 25 point flying char (too bad she can't get traits...).
Mmmpi wrote: That implies they tried to make them work.
As much of a low bar as I have for GW I like to believe they at least try and do their jobs correct.
For all we know they're working exactly as intended. But none of the players see what they were built for as relevant to actually playing games, so no one uses them.
But from what reveals we've gotten, they functionally haven't changed since the witch hunter's codex.
I guess you could just buy the Celestine kit, and then use the Geminea as just more Seraphim. It would bump two 5-sister units up to two 6-sister units.
Mmmpi wrote: That implies they tried to make them work.
As much of a low bar as I have for GW I like to believe they at least try and do their jobs correct.
For all we know they're working exactly as intended. But none of the players see what they were built for as relevant to actually playing games, so no one uses them.
But from what reveals we've gotten, they functionally haven't changed since the witch hunter's codex.
I would be impressed if the Gemini hadn't changed since the Witch Hunter codex, given they didn't debut until the Celestine resculpt for The Gathering Storm...
Bdrone wrote: the Zephryim worry me because of being Str 3 with power swords. they have all kinds of rerolls and such, but im still a bit worried about that units long term viability. theres some synergies they'll do well with though, so im interested in seeing how they are.
.
Well S3 with reroll is better than S4 without reroll vs T4 and better vs other T's. S5 would be better vs T4 but worse against most other T's. Doesn't sound that bad to me.
I mean they should work as being characters themselves that just can take wounds for Celestine and she can in turn bring them back. Last I knew though they were like a real small unit which makes them vulnerable to being picked off while celestine is still under character protection, is that how it still works for them now ? If so, that kinda sucks and I'd wonder why anyone with knowledge of the game would leave it as so.
I mean don't Ragnars wolves actually even work better than that ? If I'm not mistaken of course.
Spoletta wrote: Going by the beta codex they are characters, so wouldn't they be quite hard to kill just cause of this?
Yes to a degree, but their greatest protection is that they are going to be way down the target priority list. They don't buff anything around them, they have no firepower, and inflict little meaningful damage in close combat.
But at 20 points they could look to tie up a vehicle or camp a backfield objective, and with all the snipers about celestine could do with the protection given that the celestians and crusaders still stubbornly refuse to do their jobs.
The biggest black marks against them IMO is that they highlight what sisters don't have (proper jump characters for buffs) and a reminder of how far celestine has fallen.
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AngryAngel80 wrote: I mean they should work as being characters themselves that just can take wounds for Celestine and she can in turn bring them back. Last I knew though they were like a real small unit which makes them vulnerable to being picked off while celestine is still under character protection, is that how it still works for them now ?
They are a 2 model unit with the character rule and a 2+ bodyguard save for celestine.
They have the less powerful version of wound interception (one mortal wound for each wound saved rather than per hit), and Celestines ability to resurrect them doesn't work if you kill both of them.
Bdrone wrote: the Zephryim worry me because of being Str 3 with power swords. they have all kinds of rerolls and such, but im still a bit worried about that units long term viability...
Well S3 with reroll is better than S4 without reroll vs T4 and better vs other T's. S5 would be better vs T4 but worse against most other T's. Doesn't sound that bad to me.
yes, its been mathed out to me a few times where i roam now that it's better than S4, and thats true, even if it feels off to me that that is how it's getting done. one of my hopes was we'd get a unit that could get more than one higher strength melee weapon with armor on, or update celestians into that and being able to pick multiple higher str power weaponry. i wish this unit champion could take a blessed blade at least.
Thing is with what ive heard so far, the Zephyirm and Seraphim will be more important due to being able to deepstrike. im debating the value in a more melee list of setting up multicharges with other melee units by deep striking zephyrim with a pennant into position to give everyone else charge rerolls as well. doesn't work on many of the good melee targets, but theres a plausible application. more wondering what the best Argent shroud list could look like. something tells me my mindset doesn't play ball with the intent, because i think in shooting mostly, and im already trying to put that list together in my head.
Spoletta wrote: Going by the beta codex they are characters, so wouldn't they be quite hard to kill just cause of this?
Yes to a degree, but their greatest protection is that they are going to be way down the target priority list. They don't buff anything around them, they have no firepower, and inflict little meaningful damage in close combat.
But at 20 points they could look to tie up a vehicle or camp a backfield objective, and with all the snipers about celestine could do with the protection given that the celestians and crusaders still stubbornly refuse to do their jobs.
The biggest black marks against them IMO is that they highlight what sisters don't have (proper jump characters for buffs) and a reminder of how far celestine has fallen.
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AngryAngel80 wrote: I mean they should work as being characters themselves that just can take wounds for Celestine and she can in turn bring them back. Last I knew though they were like a real small unit which makes them vulnerable to being picked off while celestine is still under character protection, is that how it still works for them now ?
They are a 2 model unit with the character rule and a 2+ bodyguard save for celestine.
They have the less powerful version of wound interception (one mortal wound for each wound saved rather than per hit), and Celestines ability to resurrect them doesn't work if you kill both of them.
Yeah... after reading their rules, the best use for them is as Sister Superior of Seraphim squads. A shame because I had so epic and fun moments with Celestine and the Twins in the Index, their rules worked so well.
I'm one of those "Models are eternal, rules are temporary", but I believe this is the first time a change in rules for a model I love has robed me of every will to use it in my lists.
Mmmpi wrote: That implies they tried to make them work.
As much of a low bar as I have for GW I like to believe they at least try and do their jobs correct.
For all we know they're working exactly as intended. But none of the players see what they were built for as relevant to actually playing games, so no one uses them.
But from what reveals we've gotten, they functionally haven't changed since the witch hunter's codex.
I would be impressed if the Gemini hadn't changed since the Witch Hunter codex, given they didn't debut until the Celestine resculpt for The Gathering Storm...
The new codex itself features all these units and more. For those who do miss out on the Army Set, January is right around the corner, so you’ll be able to pre-order it in no time.
That new Pentient Engine doesn't do it for me. The chains holding the flails look off. The pilot's one foot looks massive. The color scheme just looks off. The gold looks wonky, there's too much going on, etc.
GaroRobe wrote: That new Pentient Engine doesn't do it for me. The chains holding the flails look off. The pilot's one foot looks massive. The color scheme just looks off. The gold looks wonky, there's too much going on, etc.
I'm really glad (and surprised) that I managed to nab a pre-order on an army box - but at the same time I like the cover illustration for the regular codex more, TBH.
Kawauso wrote: I'm really glad (and surprised) that I managed to nab a pre-order on an army box - but at the same time I like the cover illustration for the regular codex more, TBH.
Its a much better cover. Not the first time I've had that reaction either. Limited edition codexes are pretty hit and miss and the concept still baffles me anyway.
GaroRobe wrote: That new Pentient Engine doesn't do it for me. The chains holding the flails look off. The pilot's one foot looks massive. The color scheme just looks off. The gold looks wonky, there's too much going on, etc.
I may wait to build mine till someone starts 3D-printing a lid to make it closed-casket (assuming it's not an optional part in the box already).
Its a much better cover. Not the first time I've had that reaction either. Limited edition codexes are pretty hit and miss and the concept still baffles me anyway.
Likewise. Its being "limited edition" is neither here nor there for me, though - I'm more drawn by the models with unique sculpts compared to the boxes coming later. Having the codex included as part of the bundle in any capacity is a big draw, too, regardless of what's on the cover.
But, yeah, the regular-version cover illustration is a lot nicer.
Its a much better cover. Not the first time I've had that reaction either. Limited edition codexes are pretty hit and miss and the concept still baffles me anyway.
Likewise. Its being "limited edition" is neither here nor there for me, though - I'm more drawn by the models with unique sculpts compared to the boxes coming later. Having the codex included as part of the bundle in any capacity is a big draw, too, regardless of what's on the cover.
But, yeah, the regular-version cover illustration is a lot nicer.
I prefer the LE one, but the normal cover is really good, too. But they have very different vibes, I'd say.
I like how back in Bulletin #17 we were told all about how penitent engines was apparently deliberately minimalist with no decoration... and then the studio mortifier is painted with a load of gilded bling on it.
I like the normal cover much better than the limited edition one.
At least they don't seem to be making us wait very long until the regular kits are released. I want to buy Sisters, too.
I'm not thrilled by the Penitent Engine pilots so far. I think the old ones looked better. Not sure why the new variant warrants the description shooty when it has the same number of guns and close combat weapons as the old one. Nobody ever tried selling a heavy bolter Immolator as the shooty version of the heavy flamer Immolator either...
I think someone earlier in the thread said the Triumph of Saint Katherine is not order specific - is that from a reviewer and confirmed? That'd be cool.
Can't wait to see the model for that, or the terrain piece for that matter.
Mortifier really doesn't do it for me, neither liking the weapon design nor the pilot (art looked more promising). But that's kind of a good thing I guess; now I won't be disappointed with the regular version in the box set.
Seraphim look great.
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Geifer wrote: Can't wait to see the model for [the Triumph of Saint Katherine], or the terrain piece for that matter.
Yes indeed!
Wonder how long we will have to wait to see it - as pieced together before from the cherub pictures, a painted version of the Triumph of St. K appears to exist already.
Lord Damocles wrote: I like how back in Bulletin #17 we were told all about how penitent engines was apparently deliberately minimalist with no decoration... and then the studio mortifier is painted with a load of gilded bling on it.
Lord Damocles wrote: I like how back in Bulletin #17 we were told all about how penitent engines was apparently deliberately minimalist with no decoration... and then the studio mortifier is painted with a load of gilded bling on it.
Mortifier isn’t a Penitent Engine
What is the lore behind that anyway? It looks like a penitent engine variant, but its too shooty and ornate for that?
Any pictures of Zephryim? Or are they just Seraphim with swords?
Manous wrote: Is it just me or does valorous heart seem quite op?
6 fnp and the option to ignore - 1 and - 2 quite easily armywide?
It seems a way to help to cope with the current meta, but it will only cut down on losses a bit. It is the only one that seems to recognize that 'like marines, but squishier' isn't a safe place to be at the moment.
As for 'OP,' not even close.
Sacred Rose seems to be going for the other end of things, accepting that the Sisters _will_ simply die, but limiting further morale losses.
But if you want to run an elite-heavy melee force, you're pretty much required to have a bloody rose, rather than a valorous heart.
Everyone else is dice juggling or Argent Shroud, trying to make shoot 'n' scoot work.
Kawauso wrote: I'm really glad (and surprised) that I managed to nab a pre-order on an army box - but at the same time I like the cover illustration for the regular codex more, TBH.
Same, I'm tempted to try to find someone of the opposite opinion to do a codex exchange!
Really GW? You got and make a new Sisters of Battle Codex and won't put a picture of the new Serephim in there, fill the book with pictures of the same 3 Seraphim minis (ie. the mono-pose ones from the Ltd. Ed. box) but then less than a week after it sells out instantly you are happy to show them off? What gives?
At least the Seraphim look good. And that Mortifier... wow. Those flails are going to be killing a lot of infantry.
Kawauso wrote: I'm really glad (and surprised) that I managed to nab a pre-order on an army box - but at the same time I like the cover illustration for the regular codex more, TBH.
I was just thinking the same thing. But both are still really nice covers.
Yes, both of the covers are appropriate...so much so that I will probably pick up the standard one and leave the "special edition" one on display in my bookshelf.
And I have come to the conclusion that I will paint each of my Sisters Manufacturers as different orders. Shieldwolf will be Valorous Heart, Raging Heroes will be Bloody Rose, and the actual GW ones will be based on my original sisters, Martyred Lady.
Lord Damocles wrote: I like how back in Bulletin #17 we were told all about how penitent engines was apparently deliberately minimalist with no decoration... and then the studio mortifier is painted with a load of gilded bling on it.
Mortifier isn’t a Penitent Engine
What is the lore behind that anyway?
It looks like a penitent engine variant, but its too shooty and ornate for that?
Any pictures of Zephryim? Or are they just Seraphim with swords?
Apparently the Mortifier is a piloted by a Sister who’s been too naughty to be a Repentant.
So basically, the mortifiers are new take on the good old Iron Maidens, buffed up with technology. Seems like naughty sisters are gonna regret their previous actions
H.B.M.C. wrote: Really GW? You got and make a new Sisters of Battle Codex and won't put a picture of the new Serephim in there, fill the book with pictures of the same 3 Seraphim minis (ie. the mono-pose ones from the Ltd. Ed. box) but then less than a week after it sells out instantly you are happy to show them off? What gives?
At least the Seraphim look good. And that Mortifier... wow. Those flails are going to be killing a lot of infantry.
Probably the final layout of the book was finished months ago and they only had pictures of the initial two sprues ready then.
On the topic of the Mortifier though, is it me or is that a battle sister in there? Like Mortifier is to Repentia as Penitent Engine is to Arco-flagellants?
Can they then redeem themselves and be detached? Is this a volunteer role?
I hope that the Mortifier has poseablility like the Redemptor. It'll be interesting to how many modeling options are on on the sprue. not necessarily digging the flails but should he easily rectified.
It looks like Penitent Engines have a 5+ FNP and Zealot and Mortifiers have a 6+ FNP, when they die 4+ to cause d3 MW to enemies, the better flail weapons,assault bolters / pistol flamers and better movement, BS and WS.
For 8 points more.
I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.
Lanlaorn wrote: It looks like Penitent Engines have a 5+ FNP and Zealot and Mortifiers have a 6+ FNP, when they die 4+ to cause d3 MW to enemies, the better flail weapons,assault bolters / pistol flamers and better movement, BS and WS.
For 8 points more.
I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.
Slightly tougher... a slight variant to get around the rule of three?
Yeah Mortifiers do seem better though. But since both are acting as a distraction carnifex, maybe the cheaper, slightly tougher one is the better option?
Lanlaorn wrote: I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.
Penitent Engines are not a new unit. People own Penitent engines. No one owns Motifiers. Mortifiers have better rules. People need to buy the new kit to get Mortifiers.
New model selling 101. How else you gonna sell Malibu Stacey's new flails hat.
Lanlaorn wrote: I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.
Penitent Engines are not a new unit. People own Penitent engines. No one owns Motifiers. Mortifiers have better rules. People need to buy the new kit to get Mortifiers.
New model selling 101. How else you gonna sell Malibu Stacey's new flails hat.
That's the weird thing, you might own Mortifiers as they can swap their bolter and flails for flamers and buzzsaws to match the old (and current!) Penitent Engines.
Just depends if you think your pilot is a heretic or a failed sister.
Lanlaorn wrote: I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.
Penitent Engines are not a new unit. People own Penitent engines. No one owns Motifiers. Mortifiers have better rules. People need to buy the new kit to get Mortifiers.
New model selling 101. How else you gonna sell Malibu Stacey's new flails hat.
That's the weird thing, you might own Mortifiers as they can swap their bolter and flails for flamers and buzzsaws to match the old (and current!) Penitent Engines.
Just depends if you think your pilot is a heretic or a failed sister.
I like the idea of a Sister who bypasses the whole repentia and goes straight to mortifier
Lanlaorn wrote: I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.
Penitent Engines are not a new unit. People own Penitent engines. No one owns Motifiers. Mortifiers have better rules. People need to buy the new kit to get Mortifiers.
New model selling 101. How else you gonna sell Malibu Stacey's new flails hat.
. Not again with this stupid rhetoric
For every great new model, two with bad rules come out, it's just that nobody makes a fuss about them and they get forgotten.
GW ain't perfect at balance, and making glaring mistakes is nothing new.
Over valuing zealot and the improved fnp sounds exactly like GW. (though to be fair, 4+ reroll is better than 3+, and the pent cares not about BS)
Lanlaorn wrote: I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.
Penitent Engines are not a new unit. People own Penitent engines. No one owns Motifiers. Mortifiers have better rules. People need to buy the new kit to get Mortifiers.
New model selling 101. How else you gonna sell Malibu Stacey's new flails hat.
. Not again with this stupid rhetoric
For every great new model, two with bad rules come out, it's just that nobody makes a fuss about them and they get forgotten.
GW ain't perfect at balance, and making glaring mistakes is nothing new.
Over valuing zealot and the improved fnp sounds exactly like GW. (though to be fair, 4+ reroll is better than 3+, and the pent cares not about BS)
GW sucks at balance but they do tend to make dual kits seemingly with one version kinda crap, the one that was around forever, and one version actually good or omg good even until they get nerfed down the line.
Some examples ? Ogryn/Bullgryns, Hydra/Wyvern, Manticore/Deathstrike though in all fairness the manticore deathstrike kit was new to plastic for the manticore so in this instance the old model was much much better than the new one.
They do tend to have a trend that in dual kits one is good, the other not so much. Now thats either done out of complete lack of understanding of their own rules, or to be sure they push at least one half of a dual kit so it's sold.
I'm sure there are more examples but I'm not going to just list them all out here.
So which one is it, do they hold all the game design ability of a pair of mutton chops or do they actively try their best to push at least one half of a dual kit with better rules at least in so far as they can understand the rules they write ?
That models is so odd... with a bunch of Heavy Bolters you can absolutely devastate it... and with his 6" movement without possibility to put it in a transport , to reach meele with it is nearly impossible...
But at the same time it has so many little touches and buffs... I just want to make it work!
Galas wrote: with a bunch of Heavy Bolters you can absolutely devastate it...
No because it has the character keyw... oh yeah, 18 wounds lol. [edit]It tanks heavy bolter as well as 18 sisters would though, and it takes a lot of heavy bolters to kill 18 sisters. And also -1 to hit. I'm more worried about multi-wound weapons...[/edit]
Galas wrote: That models is so odd... with a bunch of Heavy Bolters you can absolutely devastate it...
If it's problem was only heavy bolters it wouldn't be too bad - after all a basic infantry squad is no less vulnerable and at ~10pts per wound it would be like having a squad of celestians with free relics... not particularly useful but not especially vulnerable either.
But the Triumph is vulnerable to losing wounds in bunches - like having a squad of light infantry lose six models to a single railgun or lascannon hit - which is not helpful.
Galas wrote: That models is so odd... with a bunch of Heavy Bolters you can absolutely devastate it... and with his 6" movement without possibility to put it in a transport , to reach meele with it is nearly impossible...
But at the same time it has so many little touches and buffs... I just want to make it work!
The size is probably on the large side as well, so hidding it will be difficult.
..it'll be interesting to see if anyone makes that model work, ill tell you that. im not hopeful because if anything qualifies as a target, it would be this. that said, it's got a solid invul and could use miracle dice to deflect the occasional hit, covering itself with the argent shroud and the Sacred rose relics if the dice is a 3 up.
the dice generation is a factor thats going to make for a twist in estimating it. seems to go off on both players turns, right? and remember charge and advance dice do work for miracles and if your trying to rush it into fights, hand of the emperor may well be useful if your willing to go that far.
I find it a super interesting and unique model. It's defensive capabilities might be stronger than you'd think after a first look. It generates two miracle dice per turn that on a 3+ can both be used to pass it's invulnerable save. With a -1 to hit, that's gonna soak up a lot of high damage fire power. It is probably most vulnerable to s6+ and flat damage 2/3 weapons with high fire rates, such as avenger gattling cannons...
In the space of 5 minutes I've gone from think its terrible to "maybe give it a shot".
I think its really going to come down to how valuable all those buffs are, which is difficult to quantify without experience.
10 and a bit points per wound on T3, 3+/4++ with a minus 1 to hit isn't that bad. Yes, you get unlucky versus some heavy bolters, and she will shed a lot of wounds, but its going to take some time.
The negatives are almost no shooting and being slow. Combat ability is okay - but not exceptional for 185 points, and that looks like quite a punishing damage chart.
In a world where greater daemons post CA might have comparable points cost I'm not convinced.
Us3Less wrote: It generates two miracle dice per turn that on a 3+ can both be used to pass it's invulnerable save
You mean only 1 per turn, or did I miss something?
And there is this weird limitation on being able to use only one (two with this model) miracle dice per phase, why this restriction?
I guess he meant two per round. Also, the limitation is actually one Act of Faith per phase, and the Act of Faith rules seem to say 'substitute one or more dice'.
The way I parse it is you would say 'I will roll saves for this model from that unit's attacks. I will use an Act of Faith and use X dice to pass X saves'. So I think you can make multiple saves, but possibly only if the wounds all come from one source. It's a little confusing.
I quite like the Triumph, if just from a "that is neat" angle. Since my old SoB tactic was to rush the opposition so they could feel the fires of wrath, this won't really work that well for that "tactic"
Maybe a Penitent Engine screen? I am thinking of a Wedge...Repentia and Arcoflagellants in the lead, Engines come next, followed by the main force of Sisters, Immolators and the Triumph as a centerpiece. Seraphim and Assassins on the flanks.
Try to maximize the Triumph's many artifacts and buff as many SoB squads in the center . Hmmm...need to think this out...pity those ranges aren't 12"...
speaking of Assassin's... ive been thinking on a plausible list for my playstyle, but i should consider what works well while still maintaining the benefits of the sisters mono rules and without.
i think inquisitors are ruled to work and not cause problems, because as i understand it, you can only run one missionary HQ in a list.. am i right on that? how about Assassins? I imagine anything else would ruin sacred rites or the order convictions depending on how you arrange your forces.
Bdrone wrote: speaking of Assassin's... ive been thinking on a plausible list for my playstyle, but i should consider what works well while still maintaining the benefits of the sisters mono rules and without.
i think inquisitors are ruled to work and not cause problems, because as i understand it, you can only run one missionary HQ in a list.. am i right on that? how about Assassins? I imagine anything else would ruin sacred rites or the order convictions depending on how you arrange your forces.
I though it was you could not have more than 1 missionary HQ per Detachment. So 2 detachments with min 2 HQ, only 1 per could be a missionary.
"Lone Mission: You can only include a single MISSIONARY in each Detachment in a Battle-forged army."
Bdrone wrote: speaking of Assassin's... ive been thinking on a plausible list for my playstyle, but i should consider what works well while still maintaining the benefits of the sisters mono rules and without.
i think inquisitors are ruled to work and not cause problems, because as i understand it, you can only run one missionary HQ in a list.. am i right on that? how about Assassins? I imagine anything else would ruin sacred rites or the order convictions depending on how you arrange your forces.
I though it was you could not have more than 1 missionary HQ per Detachment. So 2 detachments with min 2 HQ, only 1 per could be a missionary.
"Lone Mission: You can only include a single MISSIONARY in each Detachment in a Battle-forged army."
... okay, fair enough, just needed more clarification because im behind on some rules due to lack of play. so i can fill detachments easier than i thought without needed Celestine, even if it's not that wise to do. double bat it is for certain.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Really GW? You got and make a new Sisters of Battle Codex and won't put a picture of the new Serephim in there, fill the book with pictures of the same 3 Seraphim minis (ie. the mono-pose ones from the Ltd. Ed. box) but then less than a week after it sells out instantly you are happy to show them off? What gives?
At least the Seraphim look good. And that Mortifier... wow. Those flails are going to be killing a lot of infantry.
I hear you but the book had to be printed weeks/months ago so that either the new Seraphim weren't ready or they were worried about leaks.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Really GW? You got and make a new Sisters of Battle Codex and won't put a picture of the new Serephim in there, fill the book with pictures of the same 3 Seraphim minis (ie. the mono-pose ones from the Ltd. Ed. box) but then less than a week after it sells out instantly you are happy to show them off? What gives?
At least the Seraphim look good. And that Mortifier... wow. Those flails are going to be killing a lot of infantry.
I hear you but the book had to be printed weeks/months ago so that either the new Seraphim weren't ready or they were worried about leaks.
I'd wager not ready.
This entire production seems rather rushed in a "we have GOT to get this ready ASAP" kind of way.
They just didn't want to wait for the multi-kits to be ready before sending the codex to the print, because that could case a delay of a few months, and would lose them the precious "we told you it could even be 2019!" value.
Why does GW insist on writing rules in the most complicated way possible? Why isn't the Triumph just a unit with six sisters and whatever the centrepiece is? That would cut out a whole load of book-keeping with having to remember which relics it has left.
Lord Damocles wrote: Why does GW insist on writing rules in the most complicated way possible? Why isn't the Triumph just a unit with six sisters and whatever the centrepiece is? That would cut out a whole load of book-keeping with having to remember which relics it has left.
Why isn't the big bonehead and his retinue in AoS a unit of individual models? Because the sculptor made a model and the rules writers are left to do something with it. Same here. The sculptor wanted a diorama and got a diorama*. Whether that is in any way practical within the current rules supposedly doesn't enter into it.
Depending on how the model turns out, we may be able to use magnets to make casualty removal and bookkeeping practical.
*presumably, since I haven't seen the model yet - the rules obviously point towards it
Lord Damocles wrote: Why does GW insist on writing rules in the most complicated way possible? Why isn't the Triumph just a unit with six sisters and whatever the centrepiece is? That would cut out a whole load of book-keeping with having to remember which relics it has left.
if there are figures carrying each relic that would be cool for keeping track and removal
I once played a Tzeentch Chaos Demons player in 7th ed who used to bring a full-size WHITEBOARD and markers for his bookkeeping - to keep track of all the boons, buffs, and psychic powers etc. It was insane.
Lanlaorn wrote: I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.
Penitent Engines are not a new unit. People own Penitent engines. No one owns Motifiers. Mortifiers have better rules. People need to buy the new kit to get Mortifiers.
New model selling 101. How else you gonna sell Malibu Stacey's new flails hat.
This sort of 'GW makes stuff OP to sell models' rhetoric should die with this release, permanently. This book is not good. They're trying to sell a brand new faction with a book that couldn't survive the indexes. It will be years of FAQs an chapted approveds to get Sisters to 'decent'.
GW do not sell power because they have no concept of what power is in 40k.
Lanlaorn wrote: I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.
Penitent Engines are not a new unit. People own Penitent engines. No one owns Motifiers. Mortifiers have better rules. People need to buy the new kit to get Mortifiers.
New model selling 101. How else you gonna sell Malibu Stacey's new flails hat.
This sort of 'GW makes stuff OP to sell models' rhetoric should die with this release, permanently. This book is not good. They're trying to sell a brand new faction with a book that couldn't survive the indexes. It will be years of FAQs an chapted approveds to get Sisters to 'decent'.
GW do not sell power because they have no concept of what power is in 40k.
Lanlaorn wrote: I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.
Penitent Engines are not a new unit. People own Penitent engines. No one owns Motifiers. Mortifiers have better rules. People need to buy the new kit to get Mortifiers.
New model selling 101. How else you gonna sell Malibu Stacey's new flails hat.
This sort of 'GW makes stuff OP to sell models' rhetoric should die with this release, permanently. This book is not good. They're trying to sell a brand new faction with a book that couldn't survive the indexes. It will be years of FAQs an chapted approveds to get Sisters to 'decent'.
GW do not sell power because they have no concept of what power is in 40k.
What an awful hot take. People haven't even put lists together, haven't even put models on the table, haven't even built the models, haven't even BOUGHT the models.
But ok, you go and do whatever you want with your time. Clearly sisters aren't for you so, like... why are you here in the sisters thread? Just to rain on people's parade? Like, even in terms of the negativity that Dakka is meme'd for, this is a particular low.
Lanlaorn wrote: I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.
Penitent Engines are not a new unit. People own Penitent engines. No one owns Motifiers. Mortifiers have better rules. People need to buy the new kit to get Mortifiers.
New model selling 101. How else you gonna sell Malibu Stacey's new flails hat.
This sort of 'GW makes stuff OP to sell models' rhetoric should die with this release, permanently. This book is not good. They're trying to sell a brand new faction with a book that couldn't survive the indexes. It will be years of FAQs an chapted approveds to get Sisters to 'decent'.
GW do not sell power because they have no concept of what power is in 40k.
While I think its too early to tell if this codex is awful or just fine (or likely, somewhere between), I do agree that the 'GW makes stuff OP to sell models' is and had always been a pretty ridiculous stance.
Lanlaorn wrote: I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.
Penitent Engines are not a new unit. People own Penitent engines. No one owns Motifiers. Mortifiers have better rules. People need to buy the new kit to get Mortifiers.
New model selling 101. How else you gonna sell Malibu Stacey's new flails hat.
This sort of 'GW makes stuff OP to sell models' rhetoric should die with this release, permanently. This book is not good. They're trying to sell a brand new faction with a book that couldn't survive the indexes. It will be years of FAQs an chapted approveds to get Sisters to 'decent'.
GW do not sell power because they have no concept of what power is in 40k.
While I think its too early to tell if this codex is awful or just fine (or likely, somewhere between), I do agree that the 'GW makes stuff OP to sell models' is and had always been a pretty ridiculous stance.
There is really no way to know how the book will shake out until it's out and all the units are taken and the interactions etc. Does it look as strong as the new marines ? No it doesn't look to be that strong right out the gate. Which leads me to believe the complaints about marines will and perhaps should continue if they weren't the dawn of a new age and instead a gross outlier to the power curve. That said, no way to judge the sisters before we get any game time in with the different options.
I'd like to believe GW makes things OP to sell models. However you can't ignore sometimes that doesn't work so to that I'd say I wish they actually understood their own game rules well enough to be more consistent with design and stop making some things god awful and others no brainer good. I'd love to have some faith they put more than a lunch breaks thoughts into their rules.
I'd also say, I doubt the Triumph of the Saint will be good good, but I love the feeling so I'll look forward to it for sure just has such a cool feeling behind it that I love.
We are well beyond just Mr. Negative, more like the whole Negative clan cookout.
Well every time the Negative clan holds a cookout they can't but help invite their polar opposite the Positive clan they just seem to attract each other and they tend to stick together.
I'd say that Mr.Negative and Mr.Positive will be a big help with the Saint Katherine model for keeping track of the relics a positive experience rather than a negative one.
alextroy wrote: Lies! Lies! There are no magnets. There is nothing to be done but bear the inescapable pain of bookkeeping!
I knew someone who died of paper cuts because he had to track 2 numbers on a piece of paper. It was horrible. His widow shows up every time I suggest tracking CP per detachment.
AngryAngel80 wrote: That said, no way to judge the sisters before we get any game time in with the different options.
What do you expect DakkaDakka to do? Not pre-judge the strength of an army based only on partial information about the codex? I remember seeing over a dozen different threads about how the Kellermorph was so broken they would have to reboot the whole edition just to fix it. Turns out that whole codex was some of the best evidence we've gotten againstGW making new armies OP. GSC turned out to be just like the Popeye's chicken sandwich: Good, maybe even really good, but no where near deserving of the hype.
Indivual case trend makes not. 99% time what is good and what isn't is spot on known before. 40k is neither complex nor deep. Difficulty in 40k is having deep enough pockets to buy constantly new models as gw changes balance for sake of money
And we've consistently seen how inconsistent the power curve of new codices is. Sometimes a codex with new models is OP as hell. Sometimes it's mediocre. Sometimes it's good in the right hands, but otherwise sucks. Sometimes there's one or two good units in the codex and everything else is just treading water. When something like the SM codex comes out, everyone comes out of the woodwork about GW creating rules to sell models. When something like GSC comes out, those same people just change the narrative to "GW tried to release a broken codex but they don't know their own game." So which is it? Are GW evil pay-to-win marketing masterminds, or are they incompetent rules writers who can't make rules good enough to sell new models?
EnTyme wrote: And we've consistently seen how inconsistent the power curve of new codices is. Sometimes a codex with new models is OP as hell. Sometimes it's mediocre. Sometimes it's good in the right hands, but otherwise sucks. Sometimes there's one or two good units in the codex and everything else is just treading water. When something like the SM codex comes out, everyone comes out of the woodwork about GW creating rules to sell models. When something like GSC comes out, those same people just change the narrative to "GW tried to release a broken codex but they don't know their own game." So which is it? Are GW evil pay-to-win marketing masterminds, or are they incompetent rules writers who can't make rules good enough to sell new models?
Their writing is simply uneven. People can try and build a narrative around that, but they have to ignore a lot no matter which way they go.
The SM narrative is always amusing in this context, since Primaris debuted as rather awful, and it took multiple points revisions to just get them to 'acceptable,' and then finally doctrines to boost them over the edge.
As always, Dakka Dakka remains strangely silent on the matter.
However, what we do see here is a lot of people with various opinions.
I’m sure there be a few good builds somewhere in this new codex...
This retort doesn't make you look witty, just pretentious. It's common practice to refer to the zeitgeist of a forum by the name of that forum. You and everyone else who read my post know whatI was referring to.
As always, Dakka Dakka remains strangely silent on the matter.
However, what we do see here is a lot of people with various opinions.
I’m sure there be a few good builds somewhere in this new codex...
This retort doesn't make you look witty, just pretentious. It's common practice to refer to the zeitgeist of a forum by the name of that forum. You and everyone else who read my post know whatI was referring to.
And it's misguided and silly to toss an entire forum into a box for your own convenience. Seems to be the thing to do nowadays though, makes branding others easier, everyone needs to be in a group whether they choose to or not.
As always, Dakka Dakka remains strangely silent on the matter.
However, what we do see here is a lot of people with various opinions.
I’m sure there be a few good builds somewhere in this new codex...
This retort doesn't make you look witty, just pretentious. It's common practice to refer to the zeitgeist of a forum by the name of that forum. You and everyone else who read my post know whatI was referring to.
And it's misguided and silly to toss an entire forum into a box for your own convenience. Seems to be the thing to do nowadays though, makes branding others easier, everyone needs to be in a group whether they choose to or not.
It’s just shorthand for ‘some people on Dakka’ and I think the majority of people understand that.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So is the new box basically sold out everywhere?
I don’t think anyone’s (virtual) stock lasted much beyond Saturday so the only way to get it now is either an auction or by showing up early at your nearest GW/Warhammer store on the 29th.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So is the new box basically sold out everywhere?
I don’t think anyone’s (virtual) stock lasted much beyond Saturday so the only way to get it now is either an auction or by showing up early at your nearest GW/Warhammer store on the 29th.
Talked to my FLGS and they said pre orders would be honored, but they didn't expect any stock.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So is the new box basically sold out everywhere?
Except for physical copies shipped to stores. So if you have a GW nearby you could get one in a week's time, but you'll need to be there early.
I remember when Shadow War Armageddon came out. I was at GW before it opened, the first in line, several behind me. The store was allocated 5 copies IIRC. They were all gone by the time I walked out of the store.
So, Sisters don't look elite-badass-powerful, IMHO. But they're certainly a playable faction.
I called it long ago, I said that when they came out people would still find something to whinge about. But that's just like predicting a sunrise, it's 40k.
I'm still not seeing if Ministorum priests can work with them- Taddeus the Purifier and Pious Vorne would be nice additions to the army.
Very sad about the box being sold out. But at least we know the actual better kits hit early 2020.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So is the new box basically sold out everywhere?
Except for physical copies shipped to stores. So if you have a GW nearby you could get one in a week's time, but you'll need to be there early.
I remember when Shadow War Armageddon came out. I was at GW before it opened, the first in line, several behind me. The store was allocated 5 copies IIRC. They were all gone by the time I walked out of the store.
I recommend also going to the FLGS and asking if you can "prepay" for a reserved box.
I've already done this for a friend (SoB aren't my gig), and the stores are usually willing to work with you. The one I work with is always willing to do this as long as there's enough ordered and we can put one on the shelf.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: I'm still not seeing if Ministorum priests can work with them- Taddeus the Purifier and Pious Vorne would be nice additions to the army.
Taddeus the Purifier is a Ministorum Priest so he is good to go for a Adepta Sororitas detachment. Pious Vorne will keep you from being an Adepta Sororitas detachment, but will not prevent you from getting Sacred Rites for your army as she is is not the proper unit for exclusion in the detachment rules but is Adeptus Ministorum.
Crazyterran wrote: I remember when the new Space Marine book came out and people were lamenting it was UP and no one would play it.
I remember that too, it's almost like not everyone knew the marines would be OP without all the time spent to actually try them out first. So maybe, we should all give it a few weeks after release to see some builds with all their stuff available and see how it ends up ? I also think however we are seeing the marine super doctrines are an outlier and not the way the books or factions are going to be, at least going by the power curve sisters do seem to be on. Which to me look good, just not on par with the marines maybe.
However, with all that said, we won't know for sure until we get them all out and tested in the game and not just look at the rules and lament their fate.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: I'm still not seeing if Ministorum priests can work with them- Taddeus the Purifier and Pious Vorne would be nice additions to the army.
Taddeus the Purifier is a Ministorum Priest so he is good to go for a Adepta Sororitas detachment. Pious Vorne will keep you from being an Adepta Sororitas detachment, but will not prevent you from getting Sacred Rites for your army as she is is not the proper unit for exclusion in the detachment rules but is Adeptus Ministorum.
Ah, cool. Thanks for the info.
I'm kind of sad that we didn't get the Imperial Agents 7th edition treatment for Inquisitors this time around.
It would have been cool to take an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor (Greyfax) alongside an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor (Eisenhorn) as HQ's with some Sororitas and Deathwatch, with some Scions to make a Battalion detachment.
Crazyterran wrote: I remember when the new Space Marine book came out and people were lamenting it was UP and no one would play it.
I remember that too, it's almost like not everyone knew the marines would be OP without all the time spent to actually try them out first. So maybe, we should all give it a few weeks after release to see some builds with all their stuff available and see how it ends up ? I also think however we are seeing the marine super doctrines are an outlier and not the way the books or factions are going to be, at least going by the power curve sisters do seem to be on. Which to me look good, just not on par with the marines maybe.
However, with all that said, we won't know for sure until we get them all out and tested in the game and not just look at the rules and lament their fate.
You must be talking about the codex from 2 years ago, because everybody and their dog saw the new one to be a massive jump in power long before it hit the shelves.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: It would have been cool to take an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor (Greyfax) alongside an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor (Eisenhorn) as HQ's with some Sororitas and Deathwatch, with some Scions to make a Battalion detachment.
I mean the only thing you can't do for this is add Greyfax and Eisenhorn to the same detachment, you can put one into one pure Deathwatch or Sororitas detachment and the other in a soupy detachment of scions and whatever power armour faction you left out and you're off to the races.
Yeah, it's watered down and barely makes sense from a lore perspective, but Imperial Agents had that going for it too.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So is the new box basically sold out everywhere?
Except for physical copies shipped to stores. So if you have a GW nearby you could get one in a week's time, but you'll need to be there early.
I remember when Shadow War Armageddon came out. I was at GW before it opened, the first in line, several behind me. The store was allocated 5 copies IIRC. They were all gone by the time I walked out of the store.
Ah Shadow War Armageddon, wasn't that worth the investment.
Lanlaorn wrote: I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.
Penitent Engines are not a new unit. People own Penitent engines. No one owns Motifiers. Mortifiers have better rules. People need to buy the new kit to get Mortifiers.
New model selling 101. How else you gonna sell Malibu Stacey's new flails hat.
. Not again with this stupid rhetoric
For every great new model, two with bad rules come out, it's just that nobody makes a fuss about them and they get forgotten.
GW ain't perfect at balance, and making glaring mistakes is nothing new.
Over valuing zealot and the improved fnp sounds exactly like GW. (though to be fair, 4+ reroll is better than 3+, and the pent cares not about BS)
GW sucks at balance but they do tend to make dual kits seemingly with one version kinda crap, the one that was around forever, and one version actually good or omg good even until they get nerfed down the line.
Some examples ? Ogryn/Bullgryns, Hydra/Wyvern, Manticore/Deathstrike though in all fairness the manticore deathstrike kit was new to plastic for the manticore so in this instance the old model was much much better than the new one.
They do tend to have a trend that in dual kits one is good, the other not so much. Now thats either done out of complete lack of understanding of their own rules, or to be sure they push at least one half of a dual kit so it's sold.
I'm sure there are more examples but I'm not going to just list them all out here.
So which one is it, do they hold all the game design ability of a pair of mutton chops or do they actively try their best to push at least one half of a dual kit with better rules at least in so far as they can understand the rules they write ?
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So is the new box basically sold out everywhere?
Except for physical copies shipped to stores. So if you have a GW nearby you could get one in a week's time, but you'll need to be there early.
I remember when Shadow War Armageddon came out. I was at GW before it opened, the first in line, several behind me. The store was allocated 5 copies IIRC. They were all gone by the time I walked out of the store.
Ah Shadow War Armageddon, wasn't that worth the investment.
Sim-Life wrote:Why are GW holding off on the ToSK and Battle Sanctum reveal? Just show it already you butts.
They need something to show later when they actually release this stuff. Like how they saved the Chaos lord Discordant for the last week of previews during Spring's multi-week Chaos Marine release. They need new things to keep people excited. Warhammer fans get bored super fast.
Lanlaorn wrote: I also don't understand the point of Penitent Engines compared to Mortifiers.
Penitent Engines are not a new unit. People own Penitent engines. No one owns Motifiers. Mortifiers have better rules. People need to buy the new kit to get Mortifiers.
New model selling 101. How else you gonna sell Malibu Stacey's new flails hat.
. Not again with this stupid rhetoric
For every great new model, two with bad rules come out, it's just that nobody makes a fuss about them and they get forgotten.
GW ain't perfect at balance, and making glaring mistakes is nothing new.
Over valuing zealot and the improved fnp sounds exactly like GW. (though to be fair, 4+ reroll is better than 3+, and the pent cares not about BS)
GW sucks at balance but they do tend to make dual kits seemingly with one version kinda crap, the one that was around forever, and one version actually good or omg good even until they get nerfed down the line.
Some examples ? Ogryn/Bullgryns, Hydra/Wyvern, Manticore/Deathstrike though in all fairness the manticore deathstrike kit was new to plastic for the manticore so in this instance the old model was much much better than the new one.
They do tend to have a trend that in dual kits one is good, the other not so much. Now thats either done out of complete lack of understanding of their own rules, or to be sure they push at least one half of a dual kit so it's sold.
I'm sure there are more examples but I'm not going to just list them all out here.
So which one is it, do they hold all the game design ability of a pair of mutton chops or do they actively try their best to push at least one half of a dual kit with better rules at least in so far as they can understand the rules they write ?
You have a point with the fire warriors and breachers.
I'm not sure either Acolytes or Metamorphs could be considered old or all over when a dual kit for them came out.
It is odd they made immortals and death marks a dual kit. Though I'd say it would be difficult for Death marks to be considered better than immortals when one is a troop choice and the other isn't. However i do recall Deathmarks being good for a time as well, not sure about how they do now as i don't play necrons I'd say though a troop choice ( Immortals ) would be hard pressed to not be better than a niche unit like deathmarks over all making the comparison an odd one at best. As well, if I recall correctly weren't immortals not a troop before the plastic kit and metal ? That would really limit their saturation in the first place.
Are we really calling Scions and Scion command squads a different thing ? Before the plastic kit, the only storm trooper models were very old ( kasirkins not being storm troopers per say ). Yet again they became troops with the drop as scions. As well I'd say until scions dropped there was no unit anywhere called scions making both halves of the box " new " units. I'd further argue. That while Scion command squads can be more potent with special weapons, the fact that scion squads in general are troops makes them good in their own right for other reasons, one of which being you can take them in limitless numbers, as opposed to command squads which are much more limited.
In closing, we could argue the finer points forever but I'm sure there will be some cases where that isn't true, the examples I gave though are easier to compare as it's in general all units in competition with the same slots. I did also cite in my instances the one case where an old model proved to be the better of the two ( Manticore v Deathstrike ). I'd say however most things said, one half of a dual kit tends to be good, the other poop. That does sometimes change as editions progress so further you get from the kit dropping less likely that will hold true but sometimes it does, like the Wyvern, Manticore, and Bullgryn examples.
One UK retailer is stating on Facebook they have a second allocation going on sale Monday. Another UKFLGS has already put up andsold a second wave, so GW is either pulling stock from their own stores , flying it in from countries with excess, found a way to get some more UK stock produced.....or several FLGS are inciting the greatest backlash against themselves in hobby history.
My flgs said last night that they still had 3 available for preorder. I was considering picking up a second box just for the minis, but I decided to skip getting another one.
Well most I know I'm still getting mine but I hope everyone that wants one will be able to get one. Something like this shouldn't be a thing you miss out on unless you want to so good luck out there everyone.
Bit miffed the Sisters Kill Team rules are going to be in the Annual when at least the basic units for every other army were in the core book. I'd have been less disappointed with a WD article with them, but would say they should have been in the amry box at least if they weren't going to be a free pdf.
craggy wrote: Bit miffed the Sisters Kill Team rules are going to be in the Annual when at least the basic units for every other army were in the core book. I'd have been less disappointed with a WD article with them, but would say they should have been in the amry box at least if they weren't going to be a free pdf.
If they had been in WD it would have been real hard for any future KT SOB player.
craggy wrote: Bit miffed the Sisters Kill Team rules are going to be in the Annual when at least the basic units for every other army were in the core book. I'd have been less disappointed with a WD article with them, but would say they should have been in the amry box at least if they weren't going to be a free pdf.
If they had been in WD it would have been real hard for any future KT SOB player.
Fair point.
Glad I bought the issue that had the daemons list. How will future chaos daemons, or kroot players manage?
craggy wrote: Bit miffed the Sisters Kill Team rules are going to be in the Annual when at least the basic units for every other army were in the core book. I'd have been less disappointed with a WD article with them, but would say they should have been in the amry box at least if they weren't going to be a free pdf.
If they had been in WD it would have been real hard for any future KT SOB player.
Fair point.
Glad I bought the issue that had the daemons list. How will future chaos daemons, or kroot players manage?
Delaying Sisters has to be something where we give them the benefit of the doubt. Of all the various factions in 40K, they were the one that was actively being completely reworked from the ground up.
You'd be way more annoyed if Sister rules came about early, based upon the Index get-you-by rules, and then suddenly a bunch of new Sisters stuff came out that wasn't reflected at all in their KT rules.
Now these new rules will, presumably, be heavily based upon the new concepts in the upcoming SoB Codex, and may even include weapon and unit options that just weren't available at the time.
You must be joking? The basic profile for SoB hasn't changed, down to the nearly-always-useless 6++ and one dice dispel. No new option for BSS, dominions and retributors has been mentioned except for Cherub, despite plenty of pictures and the codex being in the wild. Only difference I can see is miracle dice instead of the old acts of faith (both which could have been missing/working entirely differently in kill team because different scales means different rules), and zephyrims.
Could have added Zephyrim as an add-on afterward, they did include a bunch of new units over time for all factions anyway!
You think I'm joking about it being good that Sisters will have the most up to date rules for KT including all the new concepts/ideas from the new Codex?
So you wanted something that would have been basically ancient when it already came out?
H.B.M.C. wrote: You think I'm joking about it being good that Sisters will have the most up to date rules for KT including all the new concepts/ideas from the new Codex?
I think he means that sisters din't have any new concepts or ideas in the codex, other than the Zephyrim. They've actually lost wargear options.
You think I'm joking about it being good that Sisters will have the most up to date rules for KT including all the new concepts/ideas from the new Codex?
So you wanted something that would have been basically ancient when it already came out?
The existence of Sisters rules in the core rule book wouldn't have stopped an update in the Annual to account for the new Sisters models any more than the existence of the first 8th ed Marine codex stopped the update to the second one to account for the new Marine models.
H.B.M.C. wrote: You think I'm joking about it being good that Sisters will have the most up to date rules for KT including all the new concepts/ideas from the new Codex?
No, I think you are joking by pretending that the new codex involved such dramatic changes that it's good that Sisters didn't get rules earlier, because I don't see any such change. Though, as Geifer points out, it still wouldn't have been good even if such change were introduced, which they weren't. To be clear they were no such big change included and the new codex doesn't include big change that would impact KT-scale Sisters and no new change in the codex would impact KT-scale sisters and also the "reword from the ground up" doesn't involve any change that affect Sisters at Kill Team scale. Did I make it clear that the codex didn't include big change that impacts Sisters at Kill Team Scale?
It is totally possible that Kill Team and the 40K rules are handled by different people, and that the Kill Team people were simply told not to do anything at all with Sisters until the new Codex was done, just in case there were significant changes. That wouldn't be surprising to me at all.
It also wouldn't be surprising to me to learn that they wanted to wait until they had a new plastic range to sell before releasing KT rules for Sisters. I'm sure there were a lot of people out there that would have invested in a small number of metal Sisters if they been part of the original Kill team set. I can understand GW wanting to wait and hope those players would buy new plastic instead, especially since KT would have been in development around the same time as new Sisters.
jake wrote: It also wouldn't be surprising to me to learn that they wanted to wait until they had a new plastic range to sell before releasing KT rules for Sisters
jake wrote: It is totally possible that Kill Team and the 40K rules are handled by different people, and that the Kill Team people were simply told not to do anything at all with Sisters until the new Codex was done, just in case there were significant changes. That wouldn't be surprising to me at all.
It also wouldn't be surprising to me to learn that they wanted to wait until they had a new plastic range to sell before releasing KT rules for Sisters. I'm sure there were a lot of people out there that would have invested in a small number of metal Sisters if they been part of the original Kill team set. I can understand GW wanting to wait and hope those players would buy new plastic instead, especially since KT would have been in development around the same time as new Sisters.
Worth considering that if you assume a six month lead time for books when they need to be finalized, given the release date of Kill Team that would be before the announcement of plastic Sisters and possibly before GW had fully committed to doing anything with Sisters at all.
Wouldn't surprise me if Sisters we simply left out because GW didn't consider them a supported faction at the time, and afterwards it was to late.
It's still stupid and it doesn't explain why it wasn't rectified with a WD article, of course. But it's worth keeping in mind that those were different times.
craggy wrote: Bit miffed the Sisters Kill Team rules are going to be in the Annual when at least the basic units for every other army were in the core book. I'd have been less disappointed with a WD article with them, but would say they should have been in the amry box at least if they weren't going to be a free pdf.
If they had been in WD it would have been real hard for any future KT SOB player.
Fair point.
Glad I bought the issue that had the daemons list. How will future chaos daemons, or kroot players manage?
Presumably by buying this book?
but...I already bought those? I'm confused, is the annual an advertisement not to buy WD for rules?
craggy wrote: but...I already bought those? I'm confused, is the annual an advertisement not to buy WD for rules?
You've had (and have presumably been playing and using) them since the issue came out. That's what you bought - the time between then and the release of the book, plus ensuring that you'd have them if this book never existed. Sure, now you know that you could have waited, but getting them months before for the cost of a White Dwarf doesn't seem like too bad a deal.
The future Chaos Daemon or Kroot players you mentioned can get the rules in the book. If you've already got all the rules you want from WD, then you're already set (unless of course they made changes or additions, in which case that's what you're paying for when you buy the book )
Because the annual totally contains the entire content of a year's White Dwarf.......
Anyhow, with delivery/shipping day approaching it's going to be interesting to see if GW delivers all these SoB sets and what spare stock is around come Friday.
craggy wrote: Bit miffed the Sisters Kill Team rules are going to be in the Annual when at least the basic units for every other army were in the core book. I'd have been less disappointed with a WD article with them, but would say they should have been in the amry box at least if they weren't going to be a free pdf.
If they had been in WD it would have been real hard for any future KT SOB player.
Fair point.
Glad I bought the issue that had the daemons list. How will future chaos daemons, or kroot players manage?
Presumably by buying this book?
but...I already bought those? I'm confused, is the annual an advertisement not to buy WD for rules?
People complain that WD doesn't have rules content.
GW puts rules content in WD, people complain that they can't get hold of the rules content that was in old WDs GW releases compilations of the rules articles from WD, people complain that GW is releasing content that's already been in WD.
GW stops putting rules content in WD... repeat...
craggy wrote: Bit miffed the Sisters Kill Team rules are going to be in the Annual when at least the basic units for every other army were in the core book. I'd have been less disappointed with a WD article with them, but would say they should have been in the amry box at least if they weren't going to be a free pdf.
If they had been in WD it would have been real hard for any future KT SOB player.
Fair point.
Glad I bought the issue that had the daemons list. How will future chaos daemons, or kroot players manage?
Presumably by buying this book?
but...I already bought those? I'm confused, is the annual an advertisement not to buy WD for rules?
People complain that WD doesn't have rules content.
GW puts rules content in WD, people complain that they can't get hold of the rules content that was in old WDs GW releases compilations of the rules articles from WD, people complain that GW is releasing content that's already been in WD.
GW stops putting rules content in WD... repeat...
Have you yet to learn that dakka is infested with haters that will complain on ANYTHING GW does, even (and especially) if it is the very same thing they were complaining that wasn't does a month ago.
but...I already bought those? I'm confused, is the annual an advertisement not to buy WD for rules?
You buy WD for rules if you want the rules NOW(and if you don't want every single rule including factions you don't play). But if rules were only in WD then there would be very small period you could even get the rules and after that bye bye. You know what would be end result in that? All the WD rules would be optional "not recommended for matched play" aka out of regular games. Better?
craggy wrote: Bit miffed the Sisters Kill Team rules are going to be in the Annual when at least the basic units for every other army were in the core book. I'd have been less disappointed with a WD article with them, but would say they should have been in the amry box at least if they weren't going to be a free pdf.
If they had been in WD it would have been real hard for any future KT SOB player.
Fair point.
Glad I bought the issue that had the daemons list. How will future chaos daemons, or kroot players manage?
Aren't digital downloads available? Not perfect for everyone but hey it's 2019, we can handle it.
craggy wrote: Bit miffed the Sisters Kill Team rules are going to be in the Annual when at least the basic units for every other army were in the core book. I'd have been less disappointed with a WD article with them, but would say they should have been in the amry box at least if they weren't going to be a free pdf.
If they had been in WD it would have been real hard for any future KT SOB player.
Fair point.
Glad I bought the issue that had the daemons list. How will future chaos daemons, or kroot players manage?
Aren't digital downloads available? Not perfect for everyone but hey it's 2019, we can handle it.
2019? Hell, we're knocking on the back door of 2020.
craggy wrote: Bit miffed the Sisters Kill Team rules are going to be in the Annual when at least the basic units for every other army were in the core book. I'd have been less disappointed with a WD article with them, but would say they should have been in the amry box at least if they weren't going to be a free pdf.
If they had been in WD it would have been real hard for any future KT SOB player.
Fair point.
Glad I bought the issue that had the daemons list. How will future chaos daemons, or kroot players manage?
Presumably by buying this book?
but...I already bought those? I'm confused, is the annual an advertisement not to buy WD for rules?
People complain that WD doesn't have rules content.
GW puts rules content in WD, people complain that they can't get hold of the rules content that was in old WDs GW releases compilations of the rules articles from WD, people complain that GW is releasing content that's already been in WD.
GW stops putting rules content in WD... repeat...
To clarify: I'm fine with them putting rules in WD, and perfectly ok with them putting those rules in a compilation at the end of the year. I'm not particularly keen on a compilation of those rules being released with another faction's rules being exclusive to that compilation, having to pay £15? £20? for 3-4 pages of stuff for rules for a new army they're promoting the heck out of.
So here's something a little odd that I noticed. Someone on FB is selling a Sisters box that they have, and posted pics of the front, immediate inside (ie. what you see when you take the top off) and the rear of the box.
Check this out:
Spoiler:
D'ya notice that? The Canoness isn't this one. Is that not odd?
Now the nice lady on Facebook took the time to photo the Canoness in the box, and it is the one we were expecting. Still, a weird error to see.
Didn't the Apocalypse Eldar box earlier this year show the wrong Spiritseer? I seem to remember something to that effect.
I guess these things just happen occasionally. Might be as benign as the the photographer's assistant fetching the wrong Canoness from the cabinet out of unfamiliarity with the new range, and the digital artist composing the shopped array of models below the photo not knowing better and using the matching photo of the wrong Canoness to hammer the error home.
Lemondish wrote: The one in the army box is a monopose one option sculpt. Beautiful sculpt, but not the same as the future multipart kit.
Wasn't there something about the options on the monopose not lining up with the options the canoness can take as a combination in the 'dex, or did I misread that?
Lemondish wrote: The one in the army box is a monopose one option sculpt. Beautiful sculpt, but not the same as the future multipart kit.
Wasn't there something about the options on the monopose not lining up with the options the canoness can take as a combination in the 'dex, or did I misread that?
Apparently she can swap bits of her kit out like normal, or replace all her weapons with a bolt pistol, power sword, and rod of office.
Whereas the model has a plasma pistol, power sword, and rod of office.
It's going to be all of a half-line adjustment in the FAQ, not something they'd change a model over - even if they weren't under the clock.
Quite a few people on the subreddit are saying that they've received emails that their box will be delayed till 'before Christmas' but have received upgraded shipping.
Rubenite wrote: Quite a few people on the subreddit are saying that they've received emails that their box will be delayed till 'before Christmas' but have received upgraded shipping.
Just got that message as well. Curious how and when my order is going to be split up and sent out.
Lemondish wrote: The one in the army box is a monopose one option sculpt. Beautiful sculpt, but not the same as the future multipart kit.
Wasn't there something about the options on the monopose not lining up with the options the canoness can take as a combination in the 'dex, or did I misread that?
Apparently she can swap bits of her kit out like normal, or replace all her weapons with a bolt pistol, power sword, and rod of office.
Whereas the model has a plasma pistol, power sword, and rod of office.
It's going to be all of a half-line adjustment in the FAQ, not something they'd change a model over - even if they weren't under the clock.
I figured it wasn't going to end up being a major thing, but sheesh.
On the upside, had confirmation from my LGS today that I can pick my box up on Saturday
Lemondish wrote: The one in the army box is a monopose one option sculpt. Beautiful sculpt, but not the same as the future multipart kit.
Wasn't there something about the options on the monopose not lining up with the options the canoness can take as a combination in the 'dex, or did I misread that?
Apparently she can swap bits of her kit out like normal, or replace all her weapons with a bolt pistol, power sword, and rod of office.
Whereas the model has a plasma pistol, power sword, and rod of office.
It's going to be all of a half-line adjustment in the FAQ, not something they'd change a model over - even if they weren't under the clock.
She's a limited release model, So she doesn't get Codex rules for her gear. Instead, you get to choose what her stuff counts as.
Lemondish wrote: The one in the army box is a monopose one option sculpt. Beautiful sculpt, but not the same as the future multipart kit.
Wasn't there something about the options on the monopose not lining up with the options the canoness can take as a combination in the 'dex, or did I misread that?
Apparently she can swap bits of her kit out like normal, or replace all her weapons with a bolt pistol, power sword, and rod of office.
Whereas the model has a plasma pistol, power sword, and rod of office.
It's going to be all of a half-line adjustment in the FAQ, not something they'd change a model over - even if they weren't under the clock.
She's a limited release model, So she doesn't get Codex rules for her gear. Instead, you get to choose what her stuff counts as.
We've seen the general release Canoness, they don't have the Limited Canoness' configuration. So like The Red Gobbo, in the sense that she's not get support in the Codex.
My FLGS messaged me to say my box is ready on Friday. The weather isn't too good for priming recently, so I may have to stick to putting the models together and reading the codex.
My FLGS said they'd be unpacking after hours on Friday, so it sounds like not quite a Black Friday release... I'll make my way there on Monday. It does sound like they have stock, or at least they think they do.
I cannot imagine nower-days GW releasing a new mini that doesn't fit with their new rules.
They say you can replace her Chainsword and/or Bolt Pistol with a few options, but the only way you can take a rod (including a flame rod) is to replace both your Chainsword and Bolt Pistol with a very specific set of weapons.
I cannot imagine nower-days GW releasing a new mini that doesn't fit with their new rules.
They say you can replace her Chainsword and/or Bolt Pistol with a few options, but the only way you can take a rod (including a flame rod) is to replace both your Chainsword and Bolt Pistol with a very specific set of weapons.
It’s a rules/model disconnect error that I imagine will be Errata’d a couple of weeks after the codex release.
MacPhail wrote: My FLGS said they'd be unpacking after hours on Friday, so it sounds like not quite a Black Friday release... I'll make my way there on Monday. It does sound like they have stock, or at least they think they do.
Definitely Friday, uk retailers already received and shipping out, both local GWs are pushing Facebook posts saying this weeks releases are Friday, people can queue for SoB box at open on Friday but no numbers.
I cannot imagine nower-days GW releasing a new mini that doesn't fit with their new rules.
They say you can replace her Chainsword and/or Bolt Pistol with a few options, but the only way you can take a rod (including a flame rod) is to replace both your Chainsword and Bolt Pistol with a very specific set of weapons.
It’s a rules/model disconnect error that I imagine will be Errata’d a couple of weeks after the codex release.
No doubt. Until then I hope folks can be patient and bend the rules a bit to allow new Sisters players to use their new Canoness without hitting them with a WYSIWYG argument.
The question is...FAQ after this release, or the one in January?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lammia wrote: We've seen the general release Canoness, they don't have the Limited Canoness' configuration. So like The Red Gobbo, in the sense that she's not get support in the Codex.
The general release Canoness can equip the same things minus the rod of office. Furthermore, nothing says there's a special limited configuration data sheet anywhere. It's not in the codex. It's not in the box.
I cannot imagine nower-days GW releasing a new mini that doesn't fit with their new rules.
They say you can replace her Chainsword and/or Bolt Pistol with a few options, but the only way you can take a rod (including a flame rod) is to replace both your Chainsword and Bolt Pistol with a very specific set of weapons.
It’s a rules/model disconnect error that I imagine will be Errata’d a couple of weeks after the codex release.
No doubt. Until then I hope folks can be patient and bend the rules a bit to allow new Sisters players to use their new Canoness without hitting them with a WYSIWYG argument.
The question is...FAQ after this release, or the one in January?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lammia wrote: We've seen the general release Canoness, they don't have the Limited Canoness' configuration. So like The Red Gobbo, in the sense that she's not get support in the Codex.
The general release Canoness can equip the same things minus the rod of office. Furthermore, nothing says there's a special limited configuration data sheet anywhere. It's not in the codex. It's not in the box.
I don't really know what you're referring to :(
Long stort short - the lack of Sword, Rod and Plasma Pistol configuration in the Codex may not be an oversight. It may be intentional.
Long stort short - the lack of Sword, Rod and Plasma Pistol configuration in the Codex may not be an oversight. It may be intentional.
Are you saying you believe they intentionally paired a new model with rules that render it unplayable? That they selected the rules specifically and purposefully in such a way that it can't be used in a matched play game, therefore rendering the box incapable of producing a battle forged army and reducing one of the models entirely to simply a collector's piece with no game rules?
That's a pretty crazy conspiracy theory there, if that's what you're saying.
Long stort short - the lack of Sword, Rod and Plasma Pistol configuration in the Codex may not be an oversight. It may be intentional.
Are you saying you believe they intentionally paired a new model with rules that render it unplayable? That they selected the rules specifically and purposefully in such a way that it can't be used in a matched play game, therefore rendering the box incapable of producing a battle forged army and reducing one of the models entirely to simply a collector's piece with no game rules?
That's a pretty crazy conspiracy theory there, if that's what you're saying.
Wysiwyg isn't a rule, it's a perfectly usable model. But this model also isn't a general release, so it's exact configuration may be available in 'Legends' but not the Codex.
Long stort short - the lack of Sword, Rod and Plasma Pistol configuration in the Codex may not be an oversight. It may be intentional.
Are you saying you believe they intentionally paired a new model with rules that render it unplayable? That they selected the rules specifically and purposefully in such a way that it can't be used in a matched play game, therefore rendering the box incapable of producing a battle forged army and reducing one of the models entirely to simply a collector's piece with no game rules?
That's a pretty crazy conspiracy theory there, if that's what you're saying.
Wysiwyg isn't a rule, it's a perfectly usable model. But this model also isn't a general release, so it's exact configuration may be available in 'Legends' but not the Codex.
I could be completely wrong to. Time will tell
Uh huh...
Okay, yeah time will tell. Time for a possible errata to allow this collection of wargear, regardless what manifested the situation in the first place. I suppose we'll just leave it at that.
Actually GW already revealed these, the first is the Exorcist the second is the Immolator (flamer version). A little over done if you ask me, but they certainly are shrines..
zamerion wrote: Any hope in new miniatures for priests/missionaries?
This is probably best answered a few days from now after the open day. Considering the codex reportedly doesn't show much in the way of future releases we can't tell from what we have. If we get extensive Sisters previews but no preachers are there, that's probably a good sign that we shouldn't expect any surprise clampack releases.
I cannot imagine nower-days GW releasing a new mini that doesn't fit with their new rules.
They say you can replace her Chainsword and/or Bolt Pistol with a few options, but the only way you can take a rod (including a flame rod) is to replace both your Chainsword and Bolt Pistol with a very specific set of weapons.
It’s a rules/model disconnect error that I imagine will be Errata’d a couple of weeks after the codex release.
No doubt. Until then I hope folks can be patient and bend the rules a bit to allow new Sisters players to use their new Canoness without hitting them with a WYSIWYG argument.
The question is...FAQ after this release, or the one in January?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lammia wrote: We've seen the general release Canoness, they don't have the Limited Canoness' configuration. So like The Red Gobbo, in the sense that she's not get support in the Codex.
The general release Canoness can equip the same things minus the rod of office. Furthermore, nothing says there's a special limited configuration data sheet anywhere. It's not in the codex. It's not in the box.
I don't really know what you're referring to :(
Long stort short - the lack of Sword, Rod and Plasma Pistol configuration in the Codex may not be an oversight. It may be intentional.
Except for the fact that the power sword, plasma pistol and rod of office configuration is completely valid in the codex
Except for the fact that the power sword, plasma pistol and rod of office configuration is completely valid in the codex
Not in the codex I have...
You can only have a rod of office with a boltgun and power sword, which replaces the baseline bolt pistol and chainsword. That is the only way to get a rod of office.
The only way to get a plasma pistol is to trade the bolt pistol...which was traded along with the chainsword for the boltgun and power sword. So you cannot have a plasma pistol, rod of office, and power sword.
You can, however, have a plasma pistol and power sword, but not a rod of office.
You can also have a power sword and rod of office, but only if you have a boltgun.
You can only have a rod of office with a boltgun and power sword, which replaces the baseline bolt pistol and chainsword. That is the only way to get a rod of office.
The only way to get a plasma pistol is to trade the bolt pistol...which was traded along with the chainsword for the boltgun and power sword. So you cannot have a plasma pistol, rod of office, and power sword.
You can, however, have a plasma pistol and power sword, but not a rod of office.
You can also have a power sword and rod of office, but only if you have a boltgun.
Cripes, why can't GW reduce the complexity a bit? This codex sounds like it's going to be a hot mess.
Kanluwen wrote: It's entirely likely that the 'complexity' surrounding this is more tied to the way people are explaining it.
Oh, yes, that is possible that folks could think this. In which case, let me provide you the exact wording from the data sheet so that we're all on the same page here (figuratively speaking).
A Canoness is a single model equipped with: bolt pistol, chainsword, frag grenades, krak grenades
This model can be equipped with 1 boltgun and 1 power sword instead of 1 bolt pistol and 1 chainsword. If this model is equipped with 1 boltgun and 1 power sword it additionally has a rod of office.
This model can be equipped with one of the following instead of 1 bolt pistol: 1 condemnor boltgun, 1 weapon from the Pistols list
This model can be equipped with one of the following instead of 1 chainsword: 1 power sword, 1 blessed blade
If this model is equipped with 1 chainsword, it can have a brazier of holy fire or a null rod
We can see from the one picture we have of the sprue and the 360 rotating picture that this Canoness in the box is equipped with a power sword (or a blessed blade, I have no idea how to tell the difference), a plasma pistol, and a rod of some sort.
The options for rod-like items are a null rod and a rod of office. There are no rod shaped melee weapons available to her. The rod of office requires a loadout of 1 boltgun and 1 power sword, but replaces 1 bolt pistol and 1 chainsword to get there, so there is no other way to acquire the plasma pistol. The null rod requires you to carry a chainsword, which this model is not carrying, so it can't be one of those either.
Unfortunately, the argument that this rod she's carrying is just a gubbin that has no effect would be compelling if it weren't for a description saying it was the rod of office.
this is one of my issues with the codex. despite the canoness use to be able to use any combi and storm bolters last i checked, you have this specified list that at best allows most of the melee options and any pistol, after going through a checklist of what you can take per piece.
And this is a model with some of the most requested for new options like a jump pack, and for the only reason i can guess to fit the upcoming kit, it is this specific.
Bdrone wrote: this is one of my issues with the codex. despite the canoness use to be able to use any combi and storm bolters last i checked, you have this specified list that at best allows most of the melee options and any pistol, after going through a checklist of what you can take per piece.
And this is a model with some of the most requested for new options like a jump pack, and for the only reason i can guess to fit the upcoming kit, it is this specific.
The rule writer probably was just listing all the ways that the multipart Canoness can be built, and in their insane anti-kitbashing frenzy forbade all combinations that were not possible without converting. And then they forgot that the limited edition Canoness existed...
Unfortunately, the argument that this rod she's carrying is just a gubbin that has no effect would be compelling if it weren't for a description saying it was the rod of office.
Yeah...you're not understanding why I said what I did.
I'm not saying "The rod does nothing!" or that "It's just a cool bit!".
I'm saying that there's likely a simple answer in that the intention for the swap is that the boltgun gets treated the same as the bolt pistol in that it can be swapped for a Pistol.
It's entirely possible that the codex in the army pack has different wording to the actual, final product given that it was made to be ready at least a month prior to the final product--and/or that the model itself was codex legal with an earlier iteration.
Remember that this is the same model as given away to Nova attendees--and I don't know if it had rules in the package or not, but we're talking about possibly three different iterations of the same item in terms of rules---which could mean anywhere from 1 to 4 or 5 different 'checkmarks' for iterations of the book.
You can only have a rod of office with a boltgun and power sword, which replaces the baseline bolt pistol and chainsword. That is the only way to get a rod of office.
The only way to get a plasma pistol is to trade the bolt pistol...which was traded along with the chainsword for the boltgun and power sword. So you cannot have a plasma pistol, rod of office, and power sword.
You can, however, have a plasma pistol and power sword, but not a rod of office.
You can also have a power sword and rod of office, but only if you have a boltgun.
Cripes, why can't GW reduce the complexity a bit? This codex sounds like it's going to be a hot mess.
Because that would require giving you options. Instead they want you to use specific, set wargear combinations, no doubt to mirror exactly what the model in question provides. Apparently they got one option wrong, in this case, but regardless of that you can't help requiring convulated language if you go out of your way to limit the most basic wargear options for characters.
Bdrone wrote: this is one of my issues with the codex. despite the canoness use to be able to use any combi and storm bolters last i checked, you have this specified list that at best allows most of the melee options and any pistol, after going through a checklist of what you can take per piece.
And this is a model with some of the most requested for new options like a jump pack, and for the only reason i can guess to fit the upcoming kit, it is this specific.
The rule writer probably was just listing all the ways that the multipart Canoness can be built, and in their insane anti-kitbashing frenzy forbade all combinations that were not possible without converting. And then they forgot that the limited edition Canoness existed...
This is likely the situation, however they handled it poorly because there's no indication you can actually built a boltgun/power sword Canoness from what we've seen. That's okay - it will be fixed, I have no doubt about that. It's ultimately not that big of an issue.
From what it appears, the multi-part model will have options for a bolt pistol, plasma pistol, inferno pistol, or Condemnor boltgun on the ranged side of things. It will likewise have options for a null rod, brazier, chainsword, power sword, or blessed blade. The real issue is the boltgun, which no version of this model has thus far been shown carrying.
The real solution to make this all jive is to list the melee replacements for the chainsword, list the ranged replacements for the bolt pistol, and add the wargear selections on top.
Unfortunately, the argument that this rod she's carrying is just a gubbin that has no effect would be compelling if it weren't for a description saying it was the rod of office.
Yeah...you're not understanding why I said what I did.
I'm not saying "The rod does nothing!" or that "It's just a cool bit!".
I'm saying that there's likely a simple answer in that the intention for the swap is that the boltgun gets treated the same as the bolt pistol in that it can be swapped for a Pistol.
It's entirely possible that the codex in the army pack has different wording to the actual, final product given that it was made to be ready at least a month prior to the final product--and/or that the model itself was codex legal with an earlier iteration.
Remember that this is the same model as given away to Nova attendees--and I don't know if it had rules in the package or not, but we're talking about possibly three different iterations of the same item in terms of rules---which could mean anywhere from 1 to 4 or 5 different 'checkmarks' for iterations of the book.
Of course - I apologize. I would never have assumed that intention in the first place given the exact wording making clear that the qualifier for the rod of office is that the unit be equipped with a boltgun and power sword. Furthermore, as I am not a Nova attendee and nor is a majority of the people picking up this box this weekend, I don't think that particular piece of information is relevant or helpful here. The solution, I think, and you can disagree if you want, is to pepper the GWFAQ email with requests for clarification. I'm sorry if that's not how you think this should be done, but I'm of the mind that this is a mistake and we can help make it right.
You suggest that the codex in this box could be different from the codex to be released next month. I do not believe that is likely, but it is possible.
Of course - I apologize. I would never have assumed that intention in the first place given the exact wording making clear that the qualifier for the rod of office is that the unit be equipped with a boltgun and power sword. Furthermore, as I am not a Nova attendee and nor is a majority of the people picking up this box this weekend, I don't think that particular piece of information is relevant or helpful here.
And given that not everyone is picking up one of these boxes or willing to read pirated/'transcribed' material--maybe you shouldn't assume that people are just pretending to not know the exact wording of something that doesn't officially release until tomorrow?
As for the Nova mention, if you cannot understand why it would be a relevant tangent--that is on you. Nova was where this model made her debut. Nova was where they literally gave one to people who attended the Studio Preview. If she included rules, I would have expected to see this nonsensical argument about "I CAN'T ACTUALLY MAKE IT WORK!" there.
The solution, I think, and you can disagree if you want, is to pepper the GWFAQ email with requests for clarification. I'm sorry if that's not how you think this should be done, but I'm of the mind that this is a mistake and we can help make it right.
I'm suggesting you actually wait and use some common sense. I can't imagine anyone out there would deny you the ability to play the Canoness if you wanted to, especially given the convoluted nature of the swapping.
You suggest that the codex in this box could be different from the codex to be released next month. I do not believe that is likely, but it is possible.
I'm suggesting that it could be as much as two or three different development iterations from when things were, because there is such a thing as "product lead time".
It doesn't really matter how it happened, it happened. The limited edition Canoness has an illegal gear combination, it needs an errata. I for one am going to spam their FAQ email about this, that's why they have it in the first place.
Dr Mathias wrote: Cripes, why can't GW reduce the complexity a bit? This codex sounds like it's going to be a hot mess.
What's funny is this is an attempt to reduce complexity, which generally explains right off why the complexity is there.
Having rules strictly confined to what's in the box, means you can build things right out of the box. Comparing that to what used to be required to make chaos havocs and you can see right off why they're going that way.
Except you have to be sure you get it right, or things like this happen.
Only, we can just go, oh, they made this miniature, I guess it's valid, and move the hell on with your day. It's what they did with most of the indexes.
Mine shipped day of order. The corresponding tracking link says it arrived at the local GW store the following Thursday and was signed for.
Based on other preorders I've done, the 'your product has arrives' e-mail won't be sent until release date. Sometimes not even then - even if it's at the store waiting.
Was talking to one of the lads at a local GW today and the staff at that store were not even able to get a personal order in for the Sisters box, that seems mental to me. He did mention that stores may be getting some of the sprues sent to them to be painted up prior to the Jan/Feb full range release.
My Firestorm Games order of the box is in the post.
Lemondish wrote: A Canoness is a single model equipped with: bolt pistol, chainsword, frag grenades, krak grenades
This model can be equipped with 1 boltgun and 1 power sword instead of 1 bolt pistol and 1 chainsword. If this model is equipped with 1 boltgun and 1 power sword it additionally has a rod of office.
This model can be equipped with one of the following instead of 1 bolt pistol: 1 condemnor boltgun, 1 weapon from the Pistols list
This model can be equipped with one of the following instead of 1 chainsword: 1 power sword, 1 blessed blade
If this model is equipped with 1 chainsword, it can have a brazier of holy fire or a null rod
This type of rules writing is just so asinine.
Why can't it just be "A Canoness is a single model equipped with: bolt pistol, chainsword, frag grenades, krak grenades. She may replace her Bolt Pistol and/or her Chainsword with weapons from the Sisters of Battle weapons list.".
None of this "May replace A with B, and C with D, and A with E but only if you change B to X, and only on Wednesdays on a full moon" bull gak.
Lemondish wrote: A Canoness is a single model equipped with: bolt pistol, chainsword, frag grenades, krak grenades
This model can be equipped with 1 boltgun and 1 power sword instead of 1 bolt pistol and 1 chainsword. If this model is equipped with 1 boltgun and 1 power sword it additionally has a rod of office.
This model can be equipped with one of the following instead of 1 bolt pistol: 1 condemnor boltgun, 1 weapon from the Pistols list
This model can be equipped with one of the following instead of 1 chainsword: 1 power sword, 1 blessed blade
If this model is equipped with 1 chainsword, it can have a brazier of holy fire or a null rod
This type of rules writing is just so asinine.
Why can't it just be "A Canoness is a single model equipped with: bolt pistol, chainsword, frag grenades, krak grenades. She may replace her Bolt Pistol and/or her Chainsword with weapons from the Sisters of Battle weapons list.".
None of this "May replace A with B, and C with D, and A with E but only if you change B to X, and only on Wednesdays on a full moon" bull gak.
They don't want you to be able to use 3rd part models or apparently convert things
phillv85 wrote: Ah, I’ve asked for my delivery to be sent to my house, not my local GW.
Every time I've ordered a new release from GW it arrived about five days after everyone else picks it up at their local store.
Don't think any pre-orders I've placed with GW have ever shipped more than a day before release, typically not sent until that day in fact. Pretty sure they can arrive on or just before release within e.g. the UK, but as those on mainland Europe are also sent from the UK, they typically don't arrive until a week or two later. Can imagine those shipped to stores will normally be there well in time (unless ordered just prior to release, but that wasn't much of an option with the Sisters...), but I have a tendency to live too far from GW stores to have ever used that service.
Mr Morden wrote: They don't want you to be able to use 3rd part models or apparently convert things
I'm aware of that. Doesn't make it any less moronic.
Yeah. The overwhelming majority of people don't use any third party bits anyway, they just kitbash between GW kits. Like there apparently are combiweapons in the multipart basic SoB squad kit. Why can't I be allowed to glue one of those on Canoness?
Crimson wrote: Like there apparently are combiweapons in the multipart basic SoB squad kit. Why can't I be allowed to glue one of those on Canoness?
While we're yet to see the sprue, I'd wager that the condemner boltgun comes in two components - the bolter and then the crossbow. Just like combi-weapons do. The fact that we can't put a combi-weapon on there is absolutely criminal.
I might be reading this differently, but I don’t think the limited Canoness is a illegal model.
Lemondish wrote: A Canoness is a single model equipped with: bolt pistol, chainsword, frag grenades, krak grenades
This model can be equipped with 1 boltgun and 1 power sword instead of 1 bolt pistol and 1 chainsword. If this model is equipped with 1 boltgun and 1 power sword it additionally has a rod of office.
This model can be equipped with one of the following instead of 1 bolt pistol: 1 condemnor boltgun, 1 weapon from the Pistols list
This model can be equipped with one of the following instead of 1 chainsword: 1 power sword, 1 blessed blade
If this model is equipped with 1 chainsword, it can have a brazier of holy fire or a null rod
Point one “If this model is equipped with 1 boltgun and 1 power sword it additionally has a rod of office” and point two “This model can be equipped with one of the following instead of 1 bolt pistol: 1 weapon from the Pistols list”. So as long as the plasma pistol is on the list then it should be a legal model.
phillv85 wrote: My order with GW hasn’t shipped yet. Has anybody else’s? It’s nearly 7pm UK time, I don’t think i’m getting it on release day.....
Mine hasn't shipped either, website says "Pending, Ships within 12 days", I know GW pre-orders don't usually arrive on release day when it's a Saturday (another reason to order from 3rd parties unless it's an exclusive) but thought they might arrive today with it being Friday. UKBTW.
Someone earlier on here mentioned that some people had received e-mails saying theirs had been delayed but would arrive "Before Christmas", I didn't get that e-mail but maybe there are delays.
TBH after watching an unboxing video on YouTube I'm tempted to cancel anyway, mould lines looked really bad (like scenery kit bad) and went across some bits of detail that looked really awkward to clean up, certainly far worse than I'm used to from GW these days, so don't know if they were made in China like the scenery but may just wait for the standard release.
The guys who assemble and paint the models are probably not the guys writing the rules, so they may not be that familiar with the minutiae of the equipment options.
Smaug wrote:If you take each point as only one way to build the multi-part Canoness then the examples that GW has on the community site are illegal.
How do you figure? If what Lemondish posted is accurate, they’re all legal as long as you assume the sword hilt you see over their shoulders is a chainsword.
Lemondish wrote: A Canoness is a single model equipped with: bolt pistol, chainsword, frag grenades, krak grenades
This model can be equipped with 1 boltgun and 1 power sword instead of 1 bolt pistol and 1 chainsword. If this model is equipped with 1 boltgun and 1 power sword it additionally has a rod of office.
This model can be equipped with one of the following instead of 1 bolt pistol: 1 condemnor boltgun, 1 weapon from the Pistols list
This model can be equipped with one of the following instead of 1 chainsword: 1 power sword, 1 blessed blade
If this model is equipped with 1 chainsword, it can have a brazier of holy fire or a null rod
Phoned to cancel mine but was told it was too late as it was already waiting in a Royal Mail sack for collection, then it arrived. Still showing as pending on the GW site though, so now got to decide, do I keep it after all, return it or stick it on ebay.
Tavis75 wrote: Phoned to cancel mine but was told it was too late as it was already waiting in a Royal Mail sack for collection, then it arrived. Still showing as pending on the GW site though, so now got to decide, do I keep it after all, return it or stick it on ebay.
Tavis75 wrote: Phoned to cancel mine but was told it was too late as it was already waiting in a Royal Mail sack for collection, then it arrived. Still showing as pending on the GW site though, so now got to decide, do I keep it after all, return it or stick it on ebay.
its a sign from the emperor, you need to keep it
Might have to see if I can take a look at the sprues without messing up the packaging, see if the mould lines are as bad as the unboxing video or whether they just got a bad one.
Smaug wrote:If you take each point as only one way to build the multi-part Canoness then the examples that GW has on the community site are illegal.
How do you figure? If what Lemondish posted is accurate, they’re all legal as long as you assume the sword hilt you see over their shoulders is a chainsword.
Lemondish wrote: A Canoness is a single model equipped with: bolt pistol, chainsword, frag grenades, krak grenades
This model can be equipped with 1 boltgun and 1 power sword instead of 1 bolt pistol and 1 chainsword. If this model is equipped with 1 boltgun and 1 power sword it additionally has a rod of office.
This model can be equipped with one of the following instead of 1 bolt pistol: 1 condemnor boltgun, 1 weapon from the Pistols list
This model can be equipped with one of the following instead of 1 chainsword: 1 power sword, 1 blessed blade
If this model is equipped with 1 chainsword, it can have a brazier of holy fire or a null rod
Lemondish is correct, just got mine from WHW, I had misread the canoness entry a friend sent me a picture of (for that I am sorry and it is my mistake).
Tavis75 wrote: Phoned to cancel mine but was told it was too late as it was already waiting in a Royal Mail sack for collection, then it arrived. Still showing as pending on the GW site though, so now got to decide, do I keep it after all, return it or stick it on ebay.
its a sign from the emperor, you need to keep it
Might have to see if I can take a look at the sprues without messing up the packaging, see if the mould lines are as bad as the unboxing video or whether they just got a bad one.
If it helps, while I don't know the video in question (I'm not a big fan of unboxing videos in general) I've seen a few cases where bad light exaggerated mold lines on GW models that turned out no worse than what you would commonly expect on their models.
As far as I know GW does not manufacture actual models in China outside of Warhammer Underworlds and terrain kits. And the former seem perfectly fine for the couple of warbands I have.
So while I can't say about Sisters in this box specifically, I don't think excessive mold lines are anything you need to worry about from modern GW.
If you end up keeping the box and have a look at the sprues, do tell us how it turns out, please.
Ok, so I’m thinking of remodelling my old school metal Penitent Engine as a Mortifier Anchorite because a. it’s too huge otherwise and b. I can get away without painting the millions of fiddly cables which I never really got around to the first time. I’m thinking something like an iron maiden style of coffin where the pilot used to be should do it.
Got my set this morning, overall a cool little package. But unless money is no object I do not recommend spending over the odds for it. The multi part kits will be out before we know it.
It seems like a few have trickled into GW stores, Coventry got two so there are still sets out there to be had.
