Is there any link that has all of the pics for the leaks? I can only find them scattered in this tread and it is hard to find due to the debate on the equipping the models.
A link would be appreciated if someone has it handy.
As to the equipment load outs it sucks when people converted models that they can't use now as the squad they intended or weird ones like CSM not being able to duplicate weapons, but under the old rules there were probably to many options, many of which were never used (how many mace wielding combi-flamer terminators do you see?) I mean the simple solution would be to sell an upgrade pack (you know like they do for Horus Heresy) for terminators, chosen etc. but I guess they don't like money that much. I am a fan of the accursed weapons just for the reason that power maul, sword, ax don't need different profiles with minor differences.
The thing that really does get my blood up though is the removal of the jump pack lord. I mean they were selling a model for that literally 6 months ago. And the fix is easy, just make it a separate data sheet, Lord with Jump pack, and he comes equipped with two "Demonically infused close combat weapons" i.e. lightning claws. Yes it would suck that he would not have options for guns etc., but at least a jump pack lord could be used as most people don't have a problem with proxying a weapon or two. And Harkan could also be used as a generic in that way as he is armed with two close combat weapons. Maybe if enough people email GW after the book release they will drop a dataslate for a jump lord based on the model kind of in the same vein as they did for the Autarch for Eldar.
Article title really worried me for a moment (the preview clipped it). I thought for a moment they were going to last-minute introduce another stupid mechanic for random spawnhood for characters.
I really like the pale flesh contrasting with the dark armour on the possessed.
The current DP is more than a little basic but it can look decent with some minor conversions, I've seen plenty that look way better than the vanilla out-of-the-box look.
Does anybody know why they haven't released the new one yet? it seems odd that they previewed it a while ago but the old version is still in the new codex.
Ok, so at least some options for the new possessed. Mace hand can have a stabby hand, and the boney possessed does not need to be built dismantling a primaris
Also, not really an option, but for those who hate the big meaty obliterator thighs that half of the models have, you can just paint it like armor. The champion looks a little less silly now
PenitentJake wrote: The Crusade rules sound like they have a lot of potential.
The negative consequences are a bit of a concern, as many factions DON'T have drawbacks this severe built into their bespoke content...
I'll hold off with further speculation til I've seen the full rules... But it's definitely going to be interesting.
Our group is holding out for this book before starting a crusade campaign using the Vigilus map from Risk. I’ll probably be running Iron Warriors and maybe chaos knights as a second faction. Been really digging crusade recently.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ok, WHACKY IDEA folks: just allow the Harkon model to be built as either Harkon or a Chaos Lord with a Jump Pack. That way, anyone who wants to use Harkon (all three of them) can have him. And everyone else, can have a Jump Lord.
I've been over this about a hundred times, but again: it is far easier to convert the Harkon model into a Jump Lord from another Legion, and with different weapons, than the Obsideus Mallex model. Harkon has the same basic construction of standard CSM infantry models, IE: Legionaries, Chosen, Raptors, Warp Talons, and Havocs. You can use any arms, weapons, shoulders pads, or heads from those kits with it with no problem. All you need is glue. Obsideus Mallex? Not so much. If it's ok by gw for people to use the Obsideus Mallex model as a Chaos Lord in an Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, or Night Lords army, and arm it with all of those weapons that don't come in the kit, then the same should apply to the Harkon model.
Yeah I didn't explain myself super clearly. I'm not saying we remove Harkon from the lore. I'm saying we keep him in the lore, but make his rules generic - i.e., he is no longer tied to the Black Legion - but his original rules were barely BL tied anyways!
Ok, but that isn't what I'm suggesting. I'm saying that the model should be usable as both Harkon and a generic Chaos Lord with a Jump Pack, in the same way that the Obsideus Mallex model can be used as just a generic Chaos Lord.
Otherwise, there's going to be only one character in the whole of the Traitor Legions that has figured out how to operate a jump pack. Which is just silly.
Rogerio134134 wrote:Where's the rest of the leaks.....
I'm sure all will be revealed tomorrow when the NDAs drop.
@Dudeface: That particular color scheme makes everything look better.
I like the new Abaddon rules, I really do. However, even after the balance patch from earlier this week, Abaddon will utterly curb stomp Roboute Guilliman.
I know they are trying to give every faction their "uber character" and that's fine. It just kind of confuses me when a marine can do that kind of stuff to a Primarch.
Yes, I know RG's fluff is mostly that he's a buffing character, but seriously, even the physically weakest Primarch should beat the best marine. I know Abaddon has the blessings of 4 gods and great artifact weapons, but even with those I think he should edge out a win, not totally dominate.
Hard disagree. Basically if the chaos gods juice you your as strong as they want you to be. Realistically chaos matines should be far more powerful then regular marines. After all a simple primarch stomped big E.
Boosykes wrote: Hard disagree. Basically if the chaos gods juice you your as strong as they want you to be. Realistically chaos matines should be far more powerful then regular marines. After all a simple primarch stomped big E.
It's still hilarious that Primaris Marines were basically supposed to even the odds with Chaos, but then CSM spent years playing catch up instead.
Yeah, if Chaos ascendant blessing put a Primarch above the Emperor it makes sense it would put a marine above a Primarch. Abby also has WAY more experience than Guilliman at this point, and better wargear to boot.
Thats pretty lame for a vehicle hunter. Getting into melee with an enemy vehicle wont be easy. Fast vehicle will just move away, other vehicles will be screened. AP-3 and -2 isnt much when imperial vehicles benefit from armour of contempt, some even have a 2+ sv.
p5freak wrote: Thats pretty lame for a vehicle hunter. Getting into melee with an enemy vehicle wont be easy. Fast vehicle will just move away, other vehicles will be screened. AP-3 and -2 isnt much when imperial vehicles benefit from armour of contempt, some even have a 2+ sv.
He's fantastic into medium-heavy infantry by contrast. I don't think he should be viewed as a vehicle killer so much as a vehicle manipulator.
The drop to 9W is a big buff, the loss of the aura is a big nerf. Reckon he's just a prince alternative now.
Liam Dempsey's review of the codex goes live at 5 AM. It's subtitled "Ruined before release". Doesn't sound positive. And Liam is a pretty chill guy........
NinthMusketeer wrote: Yeah, if Chaos ascendant blessing put a Primarch above the Emperor it makes sense it would put a marine above a Primarch. Abby also has WAY more experience than Guilliman at this point, and better wargear to boot.
But it didn't make Horus better than the Emperor. The Emperor spent the majority of the fight trying to talk Horus down, and didn't want to kill his son. Horus basically got a bunch of free hits without a threat of any major return hits. Even after mortally wounding the Emperor the Emperor took out Horus with a single psychic blast.
p5freak wrote: Thats pretty lame for a vehicle hunter. Getting into melee with an enemy vehicle wont be easy. Fast vehicle will just move away, other vehicles will be screened. AP-3 and -2 isnt much when imperial vehicles benefit from armour of contempt, some even have a 2+ sv.
He's fantastic into medium-heavy infantry by contrast. I don't think he should be viewed as a vehicle killer so much as a vehicle manipulator.
The drop to 9W is a big buff, the loss of the aura is a big nerf. Reckon he's just a prince alternative now.
I expected the aura to go away, since daemon engines are now 3+.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Liam Dempsey's review of the codex goes live at 5 AM. It's subtitled "Ruined before release". Doesn't sound positive. And Liam is a pretty chill guy........
Gadzilla666 wrote: Liam Dempsey's review of the codex goes live at 5 AM. It's subtitled "Ruined before release". Doesn't sound positive. And Liam is a pretty chill guy........
Caught the tail end of it.
Described it as underwhelming.
Sounds like he's having to bite his tongue and not outright admit they'll be low/bottom tier. Seems to be another case where sending it to the printers six months ago means it's trailing behind the recent Armour of Contempt/Nephilim changes.
OK, so cultists may have a heavy stubber, flamer and grenade launcher, as in all 3, then maybe have 2 of each at 15 or more in the unit. Seems...messy.
Dudeface wrote: OK, so cultists may have a heavy stubber, flamer and grenade launcher, as in all 3, then maybe have 2 of each at 15 or more in the unit. Seems...messy.
Alexonian wrote: congrats Gw, you convinced me not to buy the new possessed models! ...
Is this because of the lack of core? Because I agree that that is bs. I'm definitely going to be writing to GW about that, the lack of a jump lord, the unfair rule that Cult Marines can't take Legion traits, and the fact that Exalted Champions can only take a combi-melta and power axe. Will it do any good? Who knows? But I feel that I need to have my voice heard.
To anyone out there, would it be more effective to write a letter or email?
Yay mere mortal virus has infected csm aswell.
Still wombo combo , especially traits and relics. Oh and seemingly not written with nephilim in mind. Fun ....
Equipment more standardised than ultramarine successor which eat, breath and probably Love their codex astartes.
Random Tag issues, cue possessed not core f.e.
No custom traits.
Dudeface wrote: OK, so cultists may have a heavy stubber, flamer and grenade launcher, as in all 3, then maybe have 2 of each at 15 or more in the unit. Seems...messy.
Kind of to be expected, really. GW have been doing crap like that for a while, all because they don't put multiple special weapons in a box.
Oh no I think you misunderstand me, they're 1 per 10 atm, so going to all 3 at any size up to 14 is odd then 6 specials at 15 is mental compared to what they have now.
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: Welp. No super doctrines in the end. Who wants to bet they'll be sold later in an expansion book alongside the 2nd wave of new models ?
But but but we got 2+ hit flamers, clearly that compensates superdoctrines
ArcaneHorror wrote: To anyone out there, would it be more effective to write a letter or email?
There is no effective way to communicate complaints to GW.
You can not buy things. If enough other people don't buy things, they might stop selling it.
That's the only language the company understands.
Yeah, you keep believing that.
Of course, you absolutely shouldn't buy the stuff you don't feel is worth your money, not going to argue that.
But if you want to make your criticism heard, write a mail and voice your opinion on relevant social media platforms. Relevant being the key here - use facebook, twitter, tiktok, reddit, youtube or whatever. Anything that is a forum software is not relevant.
ArcaneHorror wrote: To anyone out there, would it be more effective to write a letter or email?
There is no effective way to communicate complaints to GW.
You can not buy things. If enough other people don't buy things, they might stop selling it.
That's the only language the company understands.
Yeah, you keep believing that.
Of course, you absolutely shouldn't buy the stuff you don't feel is worth your money, not going to argue that.
But if you want to make your criticism heard, write a mail and voice your opinion on relevant social media platforms. Relevant being the key here - use facebook, twitter, tiktok, reddit, youtube or whatever. Anything that is a forum software is not relevant.
Oh, I'll definitely be doing that. Also, is it just me, or was the ability to make custom warbands removed?
ArcaneHorror wrote: To anyone out there, would it be more effective to write a letter or email?
There is no effective way to communicate complaints to GW.
You can not buy things. If enough other people don't buy things, they might stop selling it.
That's the only language the company understands.
Yeah, you keep believing that.
Of course, you absolutely shouldn't buy the stuff you don't feel is worth your money, not going to argue that.
But if you want to make your criticism heard, write a mail and voice your opinion on relevant social media platforms. Relevant being the key here - use facebook, twitter, tiktok, reddit, youtube or whatever. Anything that is a forum software is not relevant.
Oh, I'll definitely be doing that. Also, is it just me, or was the ability to make custom warbands removed?
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: Welp. No super doctrines in the end. Who wants to bet they'll be sold later in an expansion book alongside the 2nd wave of new models ?
There's no rules for the non-RC Renegades and they were sold separately with Vigilus, so that seems likely.
Almost time for this edition's version of Psychic Awakening right?
NinthMusketeer wrote: Yeah, if Chaos ascendant blessing put a Primarch above the Emperor it makes sense it would put a marine above a Primarch. Abby also has WAY more experience than Guilliman at this point, and better wargear to boot.
Right. Chaos could boost a half-marine Luther to be a threat to Lion El'Jonson.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Yeah, if Chaos ascendant blessing put a Primarch above the Emperor it makes sense it would put a marine above a Primarch. Abby also has WAY more experience than Guilliman at this point, and better wargear to boot.
Right. Chaos could boost a half-marine Luther to be a threat to Lion El'Jonson.
Same with Kor Phaeron, who almost killed Guilliman.
The Night Lords trait was actually nerfed from its playtest version. No more +1 to advance and charge. We did get the +1 to wound in melee though.....against L5, not L6. So much for it working on loyalists.
And the only CSM character that can have a Jump Pack is a named Black Legion character.
There's some pretty good stuff in this book (the Malefic discipline kicks ), but those missing jump packs might be a deal breaker for me. Here's hoping for our Autarch moment.
Gadzilla666 wrote: The Night Lords trait was actually nerfed from its playtest version. No more +1 to advance and charge. We did get the +1 to wound in melee though.....against L5, not L6. So much for it working on loyalists.
And the only CSM character that can have a Jump Pack is a named Black Legion character.
There's some pretty good stuff in this book (the Malefic discipline kicks ), but those missing jump packs might be a deal breaker for me. Here's hoping for our Autarch moment.
Red Corsairs got nerfed from the playtest version as well it looks like.
This codex is a mess, and I can't tell if it's shift in design philsophy or just really phoned in.
No Super Doctrines? Does that mean they are going away in SM 2.0 too? If so, I'm okay with it. That being said, it sure feels like CSM are missing an extra rule somewhere.
The Marks/Icons divide is stupid. There is zero reason why I should not be able to mark all Daemonkin units.
No custom faction building... is that something going away moving forward or they just didn't put in the work to balance it.
I'm okay with most of the accursed weapons... Powerfists and LC should not have been accursed weapons though.
I went from wanting to play Nightlords, to not with the LD 5 change. That just ruined them.
My cursory guess on power is that BL/WB/EC are going to be the strongest legions. BL just gets all the benefit with Abbadon, and the other two just have a lot of baked in power.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Well the Exalted Champion is exactly as rumoured. No more. No less.
That's depressing.
Yup. And based on a model that they haven't sold in, how long? Seriously, we lose Jump Lords because they removed the model after they wrote the codex, and Exalted Champions are stuck with a loadout based on a model that they may have stopped selling before they wrote it. No rime or reason to any of this.
Gadzilla666 wrote: The Night Lords trait was actually nerfed from its playtest version. No more +1 to advance and charge. We did get the +1 to wound in melee though.....against L5, not L6. So much for it working on loyalists.
Though that does mean that Raptors and – crucially – the new Possessed will get the +1 to wound against a lot of units, seeing as they bring a native -1 Ld on top of the trait. Also, do we know if the trait stacks? Its range has increased to 9", so it might not be that difficult to bring Ld8 units down to 5.
Possessed needing 4+ to wound against anything that's T6 to T9 sounds OK. Plus you can warp-mark their target for another +1 (do bonuses to wound rolls stack? they do, right?).
Now, off to ebay to buy some more of those Greater Possessed to fill in the gap until GW actually starts selling the new ones, lol.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Well the Exalted Champion is exactly as rumoured. No more. No less.
That's depressing.
Yup. And based on a model that they haven't sold in, how long? Seriously, we lose Jump Lords because they removed the model after they wrote the codex, and Exalted Champions are stuck with a loadout based on a model that they may have stopped selling before they wrote it. No rime or reason to any of this.
Yeah I'm thinking Red Corsairs Battalion and Black Legion Outrider potentially.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Sorry if this has already been talked about, but is the Noctilith Crown in the codex?
It's been unavailable on the GW site for so long that I had assumed that they were going to remove it.
It is. Its 4++ vs shooting bubble expands over the course of the battle, it has guns, and psykers and priests can spend an action to get CP and replace powers/prayers. ~100 points.
-----
Goonhammer review_s_ are up. All nicely chopped up so they don't have to discuss the codex as a whole ( for example, in the legion bit, Night Lords have been 'done right by,' only when we get to the dataslates do we learn that jump packs went poof for everything but the two FA units and that 'sucks'. This is never reconciled).
Even aside all the missing stuff, Datasheets sound either pretty awful (cultist command squad) or obviously good (possessed or for a mark/icon unit: bikers).
Cultist are blah, get ObjSec but essentially nothing from standard buffs and are still 1 per marine unit.
Loss of super-doctrines is IMO good for less rules bloat, but fething just _mean_ to apply to this codex as the first victim.
Same for custom traits. And traitor guard. and all the wargear.
The good: improvement for vehicles (lascannon pred did get T8 and the better lascannons for its turrets. Autocannon pred just got t8, which is sad). Not sure how long this will take to proliferate, but it undoubtedly will.
There are builds here. But at first glance, its mostly running up on people with fast units who have too many attacks and lots of buffs.
Also Red Corsairs and Creations of Bile are legions now. Fluff, what's that? Both seem good at doing what this book does best: Run up and punch people in the face.
RC: 1) Advance and charge;
2) count as two models for objective control, or 5 models if 10+ wounds.
CoB: 1) +1 move and strength, and;
2) in melee, if it dies before fighting, it fights anyway, then gets removed (counts as having 1 wound for things with degrading profiles).
NinthMusketeer wrote: Yeah, if Chaos ascendant blessing put a Primarch above the Emperor it makes sense it would put a marine above a Primarch. Abby also has WAY more experience than Guilliman at this point, and better wargear to boot.
Right. Chaos could boost a half-marine Luther to be a threat to Lion El'Jonson.
exactly and the Lion was easily one of if not outright the best combatant.
Gadzilla666 wrote: The Night Lords trait was actually nerfed from its playtest version. No more +1 to advance and charge. We did get the +1 to wound in melee though.....against L5, not L6. So much for it working on loyalists.
Though that does mean that Raptors and – crucially – the new Possessed will get the +1 to wound against a lot of units, seeing as they bring a native -1 Ld on top of the trait. Also, do we know if the trait stacks? Its range has increased to 9", so it might not be that difficult to bring Ld8 units down to 5.
Possessed needing 4+ to wound against anything that's T6 to T9 sounds OK. Plus you can warp-mark their target for another +1 (do bonuses to wound rolls stack? they do, right?).
Now, off to ebay to buy some more of those Greater Possessed to fill in the gap until GW actually starts selling the new ones, lol.
They cap at +/-1.
So if you have +2 to-wound, it's the same as +1 unless you're also dealing with a wound malus.
No custom faction building... is that something going away moving forward or they just didn't put in the work to balance it.
Without the codex in my hand to read it for myself and reflect upon it, I can't disagree with your overall assessment. However, I think in the case of no build-a-warband rules, it makes a sort of twisted sense as so much is tied to individual legions. More so than many previous codices, possibly.
There are a number of warlord traits, relics and stratagems tied to each legion that appear to really define what a CSM army is going to going forward. CSM have usually leaned heavy on powerful characters. I think this codex is no exception. It may swing even more into 'herohammer'. Part thinks that build-a-warband lists would be fairly crippled without access to legion specific stuff, and at the same time, GW didn't like the idea of players going dim sum with subfaction rules, warlord traits, relics and stratagems to cover that gap.
It is definitely a strange way to go about things to me. I am not sure if it works, but until I can see for myself; I am also unable to say it won't. I don't think CSM are going to light the tournament world on fire like some 60%+ factions did, but I also have my doubts that CSM are going to be initial Necrons or Orks bad either. I think there are some builds that could work. And for the near future, I see mediocre players letting Abaddon carry them to a few wins until GW reigns the Warmaster in a bit.
After listening to some reviews of the codex, nope, not buying it. I'm also not going to buy the Torments, several boxes of Possessed, Cult Marines, mutants, and helbrute that I had originally planned to get. I'm going to be sending GW an email and a letter detailing my biggest complaints; No Legion traits for Cult Marines and the requirement that they buy a Chaos mark despite it being baked into their profiles, no Core for Possessed, heavy restrictions on what weapons and other gear that can be taken. At least the first two have to get an errata or I'll be passing up this edition of CSM entirely.
I'm guessing that the correct email address to use is 40kFAQ@gwplc.com.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Well the Exalted Champion is exactly as rumoured. No more. No less.
That's depressing.
Also:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I watched the GMG review and as he flipped through the front section he said Huron Blackheart is a Primaris marine now. That made me laugh. It's just so weird and unnecessary since they didn't bother to give him a new model.
And the only Autogun -- Oh, excuse me, I mean "Cultist Firearm" -- models I saw were the ones from Blackstone Fortress. I'm guessing that means the new box doesn't come with Autoguns or special weapons.
Skipped to the 'final thoughts' section of the Tabletop Tactics video. Not what I expected, at all.
But then the standard they seem to be using for 'great book' is 'not broken' (ie Tyranids, Custodes, Harlequins), rather than 'interesting' or 'fluffy.'
Voss wrote: Cultist are blah, get ObjSec but essentially nothing from standard buffs and are still 1 per marine unit.
Aaaand there goes any lingering interest I had in expanding my Sevants of the Abyss into a proper force.
Yeah... and weirder, releasing the book ahead of the new cultist kits means really terrible sales for those kits (except maybe muties and not-spawn, because some people seem really convinced they can fix them with enough buffs)
Goonhammer reviews are up. All nicely chopped up so they don't have to discuss the codex as a whole ( for example, in the legion bit, Night Lords have been 'done right by,' only when we get to the dataslates do we learn that jump packs went poof for everything but the two FA units and that 'sucks'. This is never reconciled).
Even aside all the missing stuff, Datasheets sound either pretty awful (cultist command squad) or obviously good (possessed or for a mark/icon unit: bikers).
Cultist are blah, get ObjSec but essentially nothing from standard buffs and are still 1 per marine unit.
Loss of super-doctrines is IMO good for less rules bloat, but fething just _mean_ to apply to this codex as the first victim.
Same for custom traits. And traitor guard. and all the wargear.
The good: improvement for vehicles (lascannon pred did get T8 and the better lascannons for its turrets. Autocannon pred just got t8, which is sad). Not sure how long this will take to proliferate, but it undoubtedly will.
There are builds here. But at first glance, its mostly running up on people with fast units who have too many attacks and lots of buffs.
Also Red Corsairs and Creations of Bile are legions now. Fluff, what's that? Both seem good at doing what this book does best: Run up and punch people in the face.
RC: 1) Advance and charge;
2) count as two models for objective control, or 5 models if 10+ wounds.
CoB: 1) +1 move and strength, and;
2) in melee, if it dies before fighting, it fights anyway, then gets removed (counts as having 1 wound for things with degrading profiles).
These articles are littered with mistakes.
In at least 3 different locations, I've been told that EC:
Get Mark of Slaanesh, only on the things that can be marked.
Get Mark of Slaanesh, even on things that can't normally be marked
Get the Slaanesh keyword on things that can't be marked, but not the Mark of Slaanesh (with its bonus rules)
Not to mention two different instances where they say the Mark is free for EC, or it's not.
I was looking over this page concerning the Cult Marines, and based on how the rules are written, if we add them to our armies, do we have to pay the fifteen points to upgrade them with the Chaos mark in addition to their normal model cost? Because that doesn't make much sense since the marks are built into their profiles:
ArcaneHorror wrote: I was looking over this page concerning the Cult Marines, and based on how the rules are written, if we add them to our armies, do we have to pay the fifteen points to upgrade them with the Chaos mark in addition to their normal model cost? Because that doesn't make much sense since the marks are built into their profiles:
Spoiler:
I'm also confused on the Icon interactions as well. Do Rubric Marines just get more AP?
Gadzilla666 wrote: The Night Lords trait was actually nerfed from its playtest version. No more +1 to advance and charge. We did get the +1 to wound in melee though.....against L5, not L6. So much for it working on loyalists.
Though that does mean that Raptors and – crucially – the new Possessed will get the +1 to wound against a lot of units, seeing as they bring a native -1 Ld on top of the trait. Also, do we know if the trait stacks? Its range has increased to 9", so it might not be that difficult to bring Ld8 units down to 5.
Possessed needing 4+ to wound against anything that's T6 to T9 sounds OK. Plus you can warp-mark their target for another +1 (do bonuses to wound rolls stack? they do, right?).
Now, off to ebay to buy some more of those Greater Possessed to fill in the gap until GW actually starts selling the new ones, lol.
Well I guess the good news is that it makes Raptors incredibly fluffy to run.
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: Just realized you can heal Abba D3 with a MoP. He's definitely busted... And the nerfs are coming.
probably, though it's possible that this is what they want the big bad from each factions power level to be again. Who know next edition may be back to hero hammer.
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: Just realized you can heal Abba D3 with a MoP. He's definitely busted... And the nerfs are coming.
probably, though it's possible that this is what they want the big bad from each factions power level to be again. Who know next edition may be back to hero hammer.
Could be seeing a movement to AoS style herohammer where almost every army gets a big centerpiece character who can wreck house but costs a truckload of points.
I'm not even joking when I say I could write a better Codex than this. It couldn't even be accused of being biased because it would just add in options that have been stripped and that's pretty much it.
Remember, if you don't like it, vote with your wallet and don't buy it. Same with any models whose rules you are disappointed with. Couple that with an email and/or letter detailing specifically what you are unhappy with. One has to go with the other. If you don't buy but don't say anything, GW won't know specifically what's annoying people and may implement changes that do nothing or which might even make things worse. If you write to them but still buy the product, your complaints are toothless and they will know that they can ignore you without suffering any consequences.
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: Just realized you can heal Abba D3 with a MoP. He's definitely busted... And the nerfs are coming.
probably, though it's possible that this is what they want the big bad from each factions power level to be again. Who know next edition may be back to hero hammer.
Could be seeing a movement to AoS style herohammer where almost every army gets a big centerpiece character who can wreck house but costs a truckload of points.
Aren't we already there?
Avatar of Khaine and/or Ynnead, Ghazghul, Abaddon, Guilliman, Morvehnn Vahl, Cawl, etc. Not every faction has one of course, but not every faction has a big beasty in AoS either, but we're mighty close.
This whole codex... After seeing Night Lords only get their +1 to wound in melee and only on ld 5 or half-strength units... God that's awful.
You can't layer enough extra rules and re-rolls and junk to make this faction feel cohesive. The Tabletop Tactics review was good, but they glazed over the datasheets except for the Lord with Jump Pack. They're generally pretty positive, which is why I like them, and they do call out issues with balance, but Chef is very much more interested in the balance, less on individual unit options.
Well, here's to waiting another 2+ years for the next crappy codex.
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: Just realized you can heal Abba D3 with a MoP. He's definitely busted... And the nerfs are coming.
probably, though it's possible that this is what they want the big bad from each factions power level to be again. Who know next edition may be back to hero hammer.
Could be seeing a movement to AoS style herohammer where almost every army gets a big centerpiece character who can wreck house but costs a truckload of points.
Aren't we already there?
Hmmm, no not really. We're still not batting at god levels. We're close but not there.
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: Just realized you can heal Abba D3 with a MoP. He's definitely busted... And the nerfs are coming.
probably, though it's possible that this is what they want the big bad from each factions power level to be again. Who know next edition may be back to hero hammer.
Could be seeing a movement to AoS style herohammer where almost every army gets a big centerpiece character who can wreck house but costs a truckload of points.
Aren't we already there?
Hmmm, no not really. We're still not batting at god levels. We're close but not there.
Fair enough. We'll get a few more primarchs down the road and maybe Tyranids will get an extra big beasty.
Oh, forgot to add Silent King to the list. That's pretty god-tier.
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: Just realized you can heal Abba D3 with a MoP. He's definitely busted... And the nerfs are coming.
probably, though it's possible that this is what they want the big bad from each factions power level to be again. Who know next edition may be back to hero hammer.
Could be seeing a movement to AoS style herohammer where almost every army gets a big centerpiece character who can wreck house but costs a truckload of points.
Aren't we already there?
Hmmm, no not really. We're still not batting at god levels. We're close but not there.
Fair enough. We'll get a few more primarchs down the road and maybe Tyranids will get an extra big beasty.
Oh, forgot to add Silent King to the list. That's pretty god-tier.
Maybe to beef Abbadon up to the same level he'll ride a 4 headed daemon engine shaped like a dragon too!
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: Just realized you can heal Abba D3 with a MoP. He's definitely busted... And the nerfs are coming.
probably, though it's possible that this is what they want the big bad from each factions power level to be again. Who know next edition may be back to hero hammer.
Could be seeing a movement to AoS style herohammer where almost every army gets a big centerpiece character who can wreck house but costs a truckload of points.
Aren't we already there?
Hmmm, no not really. We're still not batting at god levels. We're close but not there.
Fair enough. We'll get a few more primarchs down the road and maybe Tyranids will get an extra big beasty.
Oh, forgot to add Silent King to the list. That's pretty god-tier.
Maybe to beef Abbadon up to the same level he'll ride a 4 headed daemon engine shaped like a dragon too!
As much as I know you're joking, I'm not against a giant dinobot mount...
GaroRobe wrote: So what happens to the team behind a codex if it’s universally despised? Do they get in trouble or does GW just ignore the feedback and move on?
From a lot of the reviews it's not universal though. I'm annoyed by some of the arbritary restrictions and removals but it seems a decent book otherwise imo.
Gadzilla666 wrote: The Night Lords trait was actually nerfed from its playtest version. No more +1 to advance and charge. We did get the +1 to wound in melee though.....against L5, not L6. So much for it working on loyalists.
Though that does mean that Raptors and – crucially – the new Possessed will get the +1 to wound against a lot of units, seeing as they bring a native -1 Ld on top of the trait. Also, do we know if the trait stacks? Its range has increased to 9", so it might not be that difficult to bring Ld8 units down to 5.
Possessed needing 4+ to wound against anything that's T6 to T9 sounds OK. Plus you can warp-mark their target for another +1 (do bonuses to wound rolls stack? they do, right?).
Now, off to ebay to buy some more of those Greater Possessed to fill in the gap until GW actually starts selling the new ones, lol.
Good luck. The prices for everything in the start collecting have tripled since it’s no longer sold
There's a thing in Germany called ebay Kleinanzeigen (=classified ads) – just got two Greater Possessed for €15 (that's postage included). They've even been assembled and primed already
Pretty sure prices will rise in the not-too-distant, but for the most part people selling there are either not aware of what they could get or simply don't care. This guy didn't care, in fact he'd only just cut the asking price because they weren't shifting.
Voss wrote:Skipped to the 'final thoughts' section of the Tabletop Tactics video. Not what I expected, at all.
But then the standard they seem to be using for 'great book' is 'not broken' (ie Tyranids, Custodes, Harlequins), rather than 'interesting' or 'fluffy.'
It certainly seems like that. I watched the whole video, and they only had one really negative bit. It was a mini-rant on the loss of Jump Packs for characters, with an emphasis on how much it Night Lords players. So, at least they get that.
Dudeface wrote:
GaroRobe wrote: So what happens to the team behind a codex if it’s universally despised? Do they get in trouble or does GW just ignore the feedback and move on?
From a lot of the reviews it's not universal though. I'm annoyed by some of the arbritary restrictions and removals but it seems a decent book otherwise imo.
I agree it seems like a "decent" codex, if you can ignore those restrictions and removals. But how much you can do that depends on how much they affect your army. And they're an absolute gut punch to mine. The fact that the codex seems otherwise well done and put together just makes them hit all the harder. I really want to like this book, but those removals are like the proverbial bad apples spoiling the whole bunch for me.
Snugiraffe wrote: There's a thing in Germany called ebay Kleinanzeigen (=classified ads) – just got two Greater Possessed for €15 (that's postage included). They've even been assembled and primed already
Pretty sure prices will rise in the not-too-distant, but for the most part people selling there are either not aware of what they could get or simply don't care. This guy didn't care, in fact he'd only just cut the asking price because they weren't shifting.
That’s good
Before the reveal of the combat patrol, the master of possession was ~$12 and has since jumped up to $40
Have we seen the Havoc sheet yet? They did they lose move and fire?
Gadzilla666 wrote: It certainly seems like that. I watched the whole video, and they only had one really negative bit. It was a mini-rant on the loss of Jump Packs for characters, with an emphasis on how much it Night Lords players. So, at least they get that.
It would appear that some of the new restrictions passed them by, as in their first Chaos batrep, they have a 10-man CSM squad with 2 Plasma Guns.
So there's every chance they didn't notice the lack of Power Fists in Chosen units, or Lightning Claws in Raptor units, and so on.
Still can't believe that Possessed can't be marked.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Remember, if you don't like it, vote with your wallet and don't buy it. Same with any models whose rules you are disappointed with. Couple that with an email and/or letter detailing specifically what you are unhappy with. One has to go with the other. If you don't buy but don't say anything, GW won't know specifically what's annoying people and may implement changes that do nothing or which might even make things worse. If you write to them but still buy the product, your complaints are toothless and they will know that they can ignore you without suffering any consequences.
GW knows that the new Chaos codex sucks. No letters of complaint are needed to remind them. However GW also knows that people will STILL buy it because otherwise they won´t be able to attend tournaments in the future.
Meanwhile true aficionados of power armour migrate to 30K.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Have we seen the Havoc sheet yet? They did they lose move and fire?
Gadzilla666 wrote: It certainly seems like that. I watched the whole video, and they only had one really negative bit. It was a mini-rant on the loss of Jump Packs for characters, with an emphasis on how much it Night Lords players. So, at least they get that.
It would appear that some of the new restrictions passed them by, as in their first Chaos batrep, they have a 10-man CSM squad with 2 Plasma Guns.
So there's every chance they didn't notice the lack of Power Fists in Chosen units, or Lightning Claws in Raptor units, and so on.
Still can't believe that Possessed can't be marked.
Yeah, Havocs still have their move and shoot ability. And are actually cheaper with 2W. Probably because they lost the ability to double shoot with Cacaphony.
It's entirely possible that they've missed some stuff. I've seen them do it before in their batreps. And as others have mentioned, there's a lot of conflicting information in all of the various reviews.
And the no Marks for Daemonkin seems to be a purely mechanical thing. Same as CORE. Hooray for Tournament Edition. /s
I'm still parsing this book through my brain but I fired off an email for the obvious stuff so if anyone wants to copy and paste it and send it in themselves to 40kfaq@gwplc.com as well here it is for your copy and pasting needs:
Dear Design Team,
After reviewing the previews of the Chaos Marine Codex I have a couple of questions about the new book even though it isn't out yet.
Q: The Chaos Lord with jump pack was put on range rotation but completely removed as an option from the book. Was this a mistake? Additionally people really like using Harkon to make their own custom Chaos Lords with Jump packs, so even if the option was removed intentionally could we please have it back for armies who want to build Raptor heavy forces such as the Night Lords? If not, could we at least get a relic option to be able to take a Jump Pack for Chaos Lords?
Q: Could we get a designer's note for the change to the wargear restrictions available? This new book has invalidated a lot of existing armies and it has left people feeling frustrated so some insight into why certain things were done would go a long way into helping ease that frustration.
Q: In this new book Daemonkin units can't take Marks of Chaos unless you take them in World Eaters or Emperor's Children armies. Is this a mistake?
ArcaneHorror wrote: Remember, if you don't like it, vote with your wallet and don't buy it. Same with any models whose rules you are disappointed with. Couple that with an email and/or letter detailing specifically what you are unhappy with. One has to go with the other. If you don't buy but don't say anything, GW won't know specifically what's annoying people and may implement changes that do nothing or which might even make things worse. If you write to them but still buy the product, your complaints are toothless and they will know that they can ignore you without suffering any consequences.
GW knows that the new Chaos codex sucks. No letters of complaint are needed to remind them. However GW also knows that people will STILL buy it because otherwise they won´t be able to attend tournaments in the future.
Meanwhile true aficionados of power armour migrate to 30K.
It doesn't hurt to make our voices known, though. They may know that there are issues, but there are things in the codex that are problems that they might not recognize as problems until they are pointed out. And while there are definitely people who will be buying the codex, I've seen a fair few number of people who either won't be or who might wait for at least a couple of months to see if there are any changes. Beyond the problems with gear restrictions and the removal of the jump lord, there are people out there who put a great deal of time and energy into Renegade armies who now have no rules to use them. Crimson Slaughter, Flawless Host, Scourged and Purge players are not happy (it looks like the Brazen Beasts might be in the World Eaters codex). I've seen two posts about people who have thousands of points of Purge and who are very dismayed. At least several of them have said that they won't be buying the codex, or at least not until Renegade rules are released. I did not see this kind of disappointment surrounding the Death Guard codex. I have a feeling that the sales for the CSM codex will be lower than GW expects.
And yes, Heresy is definitely where I will be pivoting to for now, at least until the CSM book is fixed. I will be buying one box of the new Possessed, but to be used as Gal Vorbak. I was going to buy more of them, some Torments, mutants, Plague Marines and possibly the Noise Marines blister pack. But with the new rules, all of those purchases are on hold for the moment. GW is losing a lot more money from me than just the price of the codex.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Remember, if you don't like it, vote with your wallet and don't buy it. Same with any models whose rules you are disappointed with. Couple that with an email and/or letter detailing specifically what you are unhappy with. One has to go with the other. If you don't buy but don't say anything, GW won't know specifically what's annoying people and may implement changes that do nothing or which might even make things worse. If you write to them but still buy the product, your complaints are toothless and they will know that they can ignore you without suffering any consequences.
GW knows that the new Chaos codex sucks. No letters of complaint are needed to remind them. However GW also knows that people will STILL buy it because otherwise they won´t be able to attend tournaments in the future.
Meanwhile true aficionados of power armour migrate to 30K.
It doesn't hurt to make our voices known, though. They may know that there are issues, but there are things in the codex that are problems that they might not recognize as problems until they are pointed out. And while there are definitely people who will be buying the codex, I've seen a fair few number of people who either won't be or who might wait for at least a couple of months to see if there are any changes. Beyond the problems with gear restrictions and the removal of the jump lord, there are people out there who put a great deal of time and energy into Renegade armies who now have no rules to use them. Crimson Slaughter, Flawless Host, Scourged and Purge players are not happy (it looks like the Brazen Beasts might be in the World Eaters codex). I've seen two posts about people who have thousands of points of Purge and who are very dismayed. At least several of them have said that they won't be buying the codex, or at least not until Renegade rules are released. I did not see this kind of disappointment surrounding the Death Guard codex. I have a feeling that the sales for the CSM codex will be lower than GW expects.
And yes, Heresy is definitely where I will be pivoting to for now, at least until the CSM book is fixed. I will be buying one box of the new Possessed, but to be used as Gal Vorbak. I was going to buy more of them, some Torments, mutants, Plague Marines and possibly the Noise Marines blister pack. But with the new rules, all of those purchases are on hold for the moment. GW is losing a lot more money from me than just the price of the codex.
If people would have a shred of integrity and self-respect left, they would have turned their back on the modern Chaos faction a long time ago and be playing a vintage codex such as 3.5. Less fuss and more fun.
I am aware of all the little shenanigans GW pulls off. When the Death Guard codex dropped for the first time I was intrigued because I have a Nurgle themed CSM force. Only a few minutes later I found out that my vintage CSM terminators (RT era with power fists) had an illegal loadout. So I put the book back into the shelf and left the store in dismay.
Then a couple of months later when the new Havoc box dropped I was interested again because of miniguns. How cool would a unit be with four minguns? Right? Wrong! The box came along with only one minigun while other heavy weapons were more abundant in the box. Unsurprsingly I put the box back into the shelf.
The Horus heresy release is on the other hand a breath of fresh air. Yes, the transfers, special weapons and dice are expensive but the rest is a really good deal. That´s how you win back unsatisfied customers. Compared to that 40K looks like rotten roadkill that even desperate hillbillies won´t touch.
Most will buy it and not care overly much. Sucks for all the unique war bands, at the end of the day they can still be represented by the rules inthe book. Finally, a condensing of upgrades and units is drastically needed. It should have been done in a better cleaner version like an edition change but lots of races In 40k are becoming far to large with far to many options. This is of putting for new players. When you build a model you want to slap on what looks cool withought having to worry about if it's good or not.
Tldr: condensing should come with an edition. Change, but it still needs to happen. Especially for loyalist. They do need to release a jump pack lord but it needs to be diffrent from a lord plus 1. Footslogers should be stronger and harder.
TBF the special box is "value" insofar as that you can staple them on literally any MK VI model without issue and certainly have enough special weapons for whole armies... unless you go full on special weapons squads for some reason. Which you shouldn't since you need something to score.
Loss of super-doctrines is IMO good for less rules bloat, but fething just _mean_ to apply to this codex as the first victim.
Thousand Sons would like a word. Actually, Thousand Sons may not be the first, they were just the first that came to mind. Point is that not every army has a super-doctrine concept. For TSons the subfaction bonus is a warlord trait, relic, and psychic power. Thus, CSM not having superdoctrines is not automatically indicative of a forthcoming design trend.
No custom faction building... is that something going away moving forward or they just didn't put in the work to balance it.
Without the codex in my hand to read it for myself and reflect upon it, I can't disagree with your overall assessment. However, I think in the case of no build-a-warband rules, it makes a sort of twisted sense as so much is tied to individual legions. More so than many previous codices, possibly.
Again, TSons would like a word, no build-a-warband rules there either. Orks also come to mind as not having build-a-warband features. Actually, IIRC no faction released before Genestealer Cults (?) had those types of rules.
whembly wrote: Do we have the full text of Abbadon's "Agent of Chaos" rule?
A paraphrase from the relevant Warmaster ability rule: if your army is battleforged, he must be WL. If multiple models in your army have this rule, one must be the WL. If this model is your WL, he gets the AOC keyword.
The ability doesn’t define the keyword there, but it’s probably exactly the same as the Agent of the Imperium keyword. An AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit included in a Patrol, Battalion or Brigade Detachment in this manner is ignored for any rules that state all units from that Detachment must have at least one Faction keyword in common (e.g. in a matched play game) and when determining your Army Faction.
Loss of super-doctrines is IMO good for less rules bloat, but fething just _mean_ to apply to this codex as the first victim.
Thousand Sons would like a word. Actually, Thousand Sons may not be the first, they were just the first that came to mind. Point is that not every army has a super-doctrine concept. For TSons the subfaction bonus is a warlord trait, relic, and psychic power. Thus, CSM not having superdoctrines is not automatically indicative of a forthcoming design trend.
No custom faction building... is that something going away moving forward or they just didn't put in the work to balance it.
Without the codex in my hand to read it for myself and reflect upon it, I can't disagree with your overall assessment. However, I think in the case of no build-a-warband rules, it makes a sort of twisted sense as so much is tied to individual legions. More so than many previous codices, possibly.
Again, TSons would like a word, no build-a-warband rules there either. Orks also come to mind as not having build-a-warband features. Actually, IIRC no faction released before Genestealer Cults (?) had those types of rules.
The books without are a shorter list than those with, the first 2 of the edition had build-a-subfaction built in, tau, eldar do but they're after gsc. I seem to think admech, sisters and DE have them as well?
chaos0xomega wrote: Again, TSons would like a word, no build-a-warband rules there either. Orks also come to mind as not having build-a-warband features. Actually, IIRC no faction released before Genestealer Cults (?) had those types of rules.
Space Marines, Necrons, Drukhari, Sisters, Admech, and I'm pretty sure Death Guard got them. Not sure about Grey Knights, Orks or Custodes. But literally the first two armies to be released for 9th had custom subfaction rules.
Loss of super-doctrines is IMO good for less rules bloat, but fething just _mean_ to apply to this codex as the first victim.
Thousand Sons would like a word. Actually, Thousand Sons may not be the first, they were just the first that came to mind. Point is that not every army has a super-doctrine concept. For TSons the subfaction bonus is a warlord trait, relic, and psychic power. Thus, CSM not having superdoctrines is not automatically indicative of a forthcoming design trend.
The Cabal point system is the Super Doctrine though, no?
chaos0xomega wrote: Again, TSons would like a word, no build-a-warband rules there either. Orks also come to mind as not having build-a-warband features. Actually, IIRC no faction released before Genestealer Cults (?) had those types of rules.
Space Marines, Necrons, Drukhari, Sisters, Admech, and I'm pretty sure Death Guard got them. Not sure about Grey Knights, Orks or Custodes. But literally the first two armies to be released for 9th had custom subfaction rules.
Death Guard didn't get them, they got Companies like Thousand Sons got Cults.
GaroRobe wrote: So what happens to the team behind a codex if it’s universally despised? Do they get in trouble or does GW just ignore the feedback and move on?
Unfortunately, its a moot point. Its being warmly or broadly accepted by the influencer outposts and their followers. Any complaints are being characterized as primarily about the wargear removal (or other 'nitpicking') which, with a few exceptions like the lord jump pack, is being brushed off or even praised.
I think the only fly in GW's ointment here is their new cultists and cultist command squads aren't going to sell well because they're now a post-codex release and they aren't very good, survivable and they get pretty indifferent rules and support.
People who wanted to build cultist heavy armies are going to find out before release that they can't do that, and that the traitor guard they may have already bought effectively don't exist.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Death Guard didn't get them, they got Companies like Thousand Sons got Cults.
My thanks. So we have 11 armies with custom subfaction rules and 6 without. Within those 6 we have:
- Grey Knights which have set Brotherhoods so a custom Brotherhood isn't really on the table.
- Death Guard which could be argued follow a fairly rigid Legion structure but also not really.
- Tsons which again could be argued to following set Cults within the Legion but also not really.
- Orks, somehow. This one I have no rationale for.
- Chaos Space Marines, again how. Utterly ridiculous especially since the Renegade Chapters aren't in the Codex but are in a supplement that can't be bought.
- Custodes where I could maybe understand a justification from the viewpoint of there aren't enough to manage more than the official Hosts.
It's weighted in favour of armies that do have custom subfaction rules as Guard did get some in PA so it would be a shock to see those go and then I don't even know if Daemons have subfactions being locked into the 4 Gods and all.
*Edit as I have been corrected on Knights*
ArcaneHorror wrote: Remember, if you don't like it, vote with your wallet and don't buy it. Same with any models whose rules you are disappointed with. Couple that with an email and/or letter detailing specifically what you are unhappy with. One has to go with the other. If you don't buy but don't say anything, GW won't know specifically what's annoying people and may implement changes that do nothing or which might even make things worse. If you write to them but still buy the product, your complaints are toothless and they will know that they can ignore you without suffering any consequences.
GW knows that the new Chaos codex sucks. No letters of complaint are needed to remind them. However GW also knows that people will STILL buy it because otherwise they won´t be able to attend tournaments in the future.
Meanwhile true aficionados of power armour migrate to 30K.
It doesn't hurt to make our voices known, though. They may know that there are issues, but there are things in the codex that are problems that they might not recognize as problems until they are pointed out. And while there are definitely people who will be buying the codex, I've seen a fair few number of people who either won't be or who might wait for at least a couple of months to see if there are any changes. Beyond the problems with gear restrictions and the removal of the jump lord, there are people out there who put a great deal of time and energy into Renegade armies who now have no rules to use them. Crimson Slaughter, Flawless Host, Scourged and Purge players are not happy (it looks like the Brazen Beasts might be in the World Eaters codex). I've seen two posts about people who have thousands of points of Purge and who are very dismayed. At least several of them have said that they won't be buying the codex, or at least not until Renegade rules are released. I did not see this kind of disappointment surrounding the Death Guard codex. I have a feeling that the sales for the CSM codex will be lower than GW expects.
And yes, Heresy is definitely where I will be pivoting to for now, at least until the CSM book is fixed. I will be buying one box of the new Possessed, but to be used as Gal Vorbak. I was going to buy more of them, some Torments, mutants, Plague Marines and possibly the Noise Marines blister pack. But with the new rules, all of those purchases are on hold for the moment. GW is losing a lot more money from me than just the price of the codex.
If people would have a shred of integrity and self-respect left, they would have turned their back on the modern Chaos faction a long time ago and be playing a vintage codex such as 3.5. Less fuss and more fun.
I am aware of all the little shenanigans GW pulls off. When the Death Guard codex dropped for the first time I was intrigued because I have a Nurgle themed CSM force. Only a few minutes later I found out that my vintage CSM terminators (RT era with power fists) had an illegal loadout. So I put the book back into the shelf and left the store in dismay.
Then a couple of months later when the new Havoc box dropped I was interested again because of miniguns. How cool would a unit be with four minguns? Right? Wrong! The box came along with only one minigun while other heavy weapons were more abundant in the box. Unsurprsingly I put the box back into the shelf.
The Horus heresy release is on the other hand a breath of fresh air. Yes, the transfers, special weapons and dice are expensive but the rest is a really good deal. That´s how you win back unsatisfied customers. Compared to that 40K looks like rotten roadkill that even desperate hillbillies won´t touch.
If it was up to me, I'd let all the armies get their old units back. A heavy weapons team would not be out of theme for the Death Guard. The Thousand Sons in particular have suffered from the loss of options, and they have a pretty small roster of units.
I'll definitely be posting up that letter on various social media sites. My own one about Possessed not being Core and the Cult Marines not having Legion traits is a bit long, so I'll be sending it both by email and snail mail so that it gets through and is not overwhelmed by the others.
whembly wrote: Do we have the full text of Abbadon's "Agent of Chaos" rule?
A paraphrase from the relevant Warmaster ability rule: if your army is battleforged, he must be WL. If multiple models in your army have this rule, one must be the WL. If this model is your WL, he gets the AOC keyword.
The ability doesn’t define the keyword there, but it’s probably exactly the same as the Agent of the Imperium keyword. An AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit included in a Patrol, Battalion or Brigade Detachment in this manner is ignored for any rules that state all units from that Detachment must have at least one Faction keyword in common (e.g. in a matched play game) and when determining your Army Faction.
Thanks, so it's reasonable to assume that in a DG/TS list headed by Abby as the warlord, we do lose out DG/TSWLT/relic, but retain the detachment's specific DG/TS secondaries?
zamerion wrote: So other week without the new toys, and maybe 2 weeks more (because paints are 2 weeks preorder)
I'm more displeased and empassioned about this than the option being cut/changed. Its fething stupid. They obviously only released the book due to the nephilim and points changes.
chaos0xomega wrote: Again, TSons would like a word, no build-a-warband rules there either. Orks also come to mind as not having build-a-warband features. Actually, IIRC no faction released before Genestealer Cults (?) had those types of rules.
Space Marines, Necrons, Drukhari, Sisters, Admech, and I'm pretty sure Death Guard got them. Not sure about Grey Knights, Orks or Custodes. But literally the first two armies to be released for 9th had custom subfaction rules.
Orks definitely don't have build-a-warband. Not sure about the others.
The Cabal point system is the Super Doctrine though, no?
No. Cabal Points are just the army keyword purity bonus (sometimes referred to as an "army doctrine" or "normal doctrine" or just "army-wide special rule"). Super Doctrine refers specifically to subfaction-specifc army-wide special rules that are layered on top of that, in the way that the Imperial Fists superdoctrine provides an extra +1 damage to vehicles when the Devestator Combat Doctrine is active and ignores light cover + additional hits with bolters or the White Scars superdoctrine provides an extra +1 damage in melee when the Assault Combat Doctrine is active and charge on advance/fall back + ignore advance penalties on Assault weapons.
Similarly, superdoctrine refers to things like the Klan Kulturs in Ork armies layering on top of Waaagh!, or Chaos Knight Household Bonds and Traitoris Ambitions layering on top of Harbingers of Dread, Tyranid Hive Fleet Adaptations layering over Synaptic Imperative, Aeldari Craftworld Attributes layering over Strands of Fate, Harlequins Saedath Characterizations over Luck of the Laughing God, or Imperial Knights Houshold Traditions and Allegiance Oaths layering over Code Chivalric. So Cabbalistic Rituals/Cabal Points are the equivalent of the SM Combat Doctrines as an army wide keyword purity bonus, similar to Waaagh!, Harbingers of Dread, Synaptic Imperative, Strands of Fate, Luck of the Laughing God, and Code Chivalric, etc. but TSons do not have Cult-specific superdoctrines that layer on top of that the way SM superdoctrines (which are referred to in the SM Codex as Abilities and Chapter Tactics), Klan Kulturs, Chaos Knight Household Bombs/Traitoris Ambitions, Tyranid Hive Fleet Adaptations, Craftworld Attributes, Saedath Characterizations, or Imperial Knight Household Traditions/Allegiance Oaths do.
All that being said, on second thought the claim that CSM Legions don't get superdoctrines is incorrect though, as each Legion has a Legion Trait (i.e. superdoctrine):
Alpha Legion
Legion Trait: Masters of Duplicity
Each time a ranged attack targets one of these units, if the attacker is more than 12” away, they get -1 to their to hit roll, or 18” away if the target has any models with 10+ wounds.
These units can declare a charge or perform an action after falling back. If they charge while doing an action, the action still fails.
Black Legion
Legion Trait: Black Crusaders
Ignore modifiers to combat attrition
Your units get +1 to hit if they’re either making a ranged attack at the closest eligible enemy unit or making a melee attack against a unit you charged this turn
It could be that by "superdoctrine" Voss was actually referring to what SM refer to as "Abilities" (i.e. the part that allows each Chapter to interact with the Combat Doctrines army wide rule in a different manner) and excluding the part that they refer to as "Chapter Tactics" which are the additional abilities which are similar to the CSM Legion Traits, but usually when people say "superdoctrine" they are referring to both together.
- Custodes where I could maybe understand a justification from the viewpoint of there aren't enough to manage more than the official Hosts.
Semi-incorrect. The build-a-warband option for Custodes is "Emperor's Chosen" which provides a strategem that allows them to steal the Martial Ka'tah abilities of another Shield Host. Its not quite the same level of flexible as the build-a-warband in other books, but gives them a lot of flexibility in how they play.
My guess is that there was a shipping delay with the models but they had the books ready to go and they pushed the books out since Nephlim basically spoiled the points and secondaries.
ClockworkZion wrote: My guess is that there was a shipping delay with the models but they had the books ready to go and they pushed the books out since Nephlim basically spoiled the points and secondaries.
Yeah, there had to have been some kind of production/shipping delay on the model side. GW would not have done this otherwise.
I'm glad they released the codex at least. Allows you play until the new stuff comes out. Honestly, the only models I want from the new release are Possessed anyway, so this isn't a huge deal to me.
ClockworkZion wrote: My guess is that there was a shipping delay with the models but they had the books ready to go and they pushed the books out since Nephlim basically spoiled the points and secondaries.
Or they're just giving the Heresy models some additional sales time without competition.
ClockworkZion wrote: My guess is that there was a shipping delay with the models but they had the books ready to go and they pushed the books out since Nephlim basically spoiled the points and secondaries.
Or they're just giving the Heresy models some additional sales time without competition.
if you go down that rabbit hole, it is more like GW tries to push Heresy by getting all the 40kCSM players to switch over to that system by making playing CSM in 40k as hard as possible
chaos0xomega wrote: No. Cabal Points are just the army keyword purity bonus (sometimes referred to as an "army doctrine" or "normal doctrine" or just "army-wide special rule"). Super Doctrine refers specifically to subfaction-specifc army-wide special rules that are layered on top of that, in the way that the Imperial Fists superdoctrine provides an extra +1 damage to vehicles when the Devestator Combat Doctrine is active and ignores light cover + additional hits with bolters or the White Scars superdoctrine provides an extra +1 damage in melee when the Assault Combat Doctrine is active and charge on advance/fall back + ignore advance penalties on Assault weapons.
Similarly, superdoctrine refers to things like the Klan Kulturs in Ork armies layering on top of Waaagh!, or Chaos Knight Household Bonds and Traitoris Ambitions layering on top of Harbingers of Dread, Tyranid Hive Fleet Adaptations layering over Synaptic Imperative, Aeldari Craftworld Attributes layering over Strands of Fate, Harlequins Saedath Characterizations over Luck of the Laughing God, or Imperial Knights Houshold Traditions and Allegiance Oaths layering over Code Chivalric. So Cabbalistic Rituals/Cabal Points are the equivalent of the SM Combat Doctrines as an army wide keyword purity bonus, similar to Waaagh!, Harbingers of Dread, Synaptic Imperative, Strands of Fate, Luck of the Laughing God, and Code Chivalric, etc. but TSons do not have Cult-specific superdoctrines that layer on top of that the way SM superdoctrines (which are referred to in the SM Codex as Abilities and Chapter Tactics), Klan Kulturs, Chaos Knight Household Bombs/Traitoris Ambitions, Tyranid Hive Fleet Adaptations, Craftworld Attributes, Saedath Characterizations, or Imperial Knight Household Traditions/Allegiance Oaths do.
This analysis of Super-doctrine is incorrect. Most Codexes generally have the following levels of customization available to them:
Detachment Abilities: Any ability based on being a certain type of detachment as defined in a Codex, such as a Adeptus Astartes detachment having the Company Command, Chapter Tactics, and Troops gain Objective Secured abilities.
Sub-Faction Abilities: An ability gained when all units an appropriate detachment have the same subfaction Keyword (with some exceptions). This is Chapter Tactics for Space Marines.
Faction Purity Abilities: An ability that exist on datasheets but can only be used if all units in your army have a specific faction keyword. This is Combat Doctrines for Space Marines.
Super-Doctrines (rarely): A few select sub-factions gain a bonus ability above their Faction Purity ability if all the units in the army have the same sub-faction keyword. Ultramarines gain Scions of Gilliman if all units, expect Unaligned units, in the army are Ultramarines.
The Space Marine Chapters have Super-Doctrines. I don't recall anyone else having them. The abilities can be slightly rearranged for the codexes that don't have allies available to them. For example, Orks have no Purity ability but have a much more complex detachment ability in Specialist Mobs.
SM & Necrons and maybe DG (kinda) get "Super Doctrines". GW clearly abandoned the idea afterwards. Its possible they thought about giving it to CSM per playtesting, and then have either held off, or abandoned it.
I.E. - SM get a chapter bonus to the base doctrines rule. Necron Dynasties get a modifier to Command Protocols. DG get a unique contagion via a warlord trait (which you could argue is just a warlord trait).
DE get nothing. Whether I'm running Black Heart or Cult of Cursed Blade doesn't impact Power from Pain or Blade Artists. With Orks being Goffs or Bad Moons doesn't impact your Waaagh or Speed Waaagh rule.
chaos0xomega wrote: No. Cabal Points are just the army keyword purity bonus (sometimes referred to as an "army doctrine" or "normal doctrine" or just "army-wide special rule"). Super Doctrine refers specifically to subfaction-specifc army-wide special rules that are layered on top of that, in the way that the Imperial Fists superdoctrine provides an extra +1 damage to vehicles when the Devestator Combat Doctrine is active and ignores light cover + additional hits with bolters or the White Scars superdoctrine provides an extra +1 damage in melee when the Assault Combat Doctrine is active and charge on advance/fall back + ignore advance penalties on Assault weapons.
Similarly, superdoctrine refers to things like the Klan Kulturs in Ork armies layering on top of Waaagh!, or Chaos Knight Household Bonds and Traitoris Ambitions layering on top of Harbingers of Dread, Tyranid Hive Fleet Adaptations layering over Synaptic Imperative, Aeldari Craftworld Attributes layering over Strands of Fate, Harlequins Saedath Characterizations over Luck of the Laughing God, or Imperial Knights Houshold Traditions and Allegiance Oaths layering over Code Chivalric. So Cabbalistic Rituals/Cabal Points are the equivalent of the SM Combat Doctrines as an army wide keyword purity bonus, similar to Waaagh!, Harbingers of Dread, Synaptic Imperative, Strands of Fate, Luck of the Laughing God, and Code Chivalric, etc. but TSons do not have Cult-specific superdoctrines that layer on top of that the way SM superdoctrines (which are referred to in the SM Codex as Abilities and Chapter Tactics), Klan Kulturs, Chaos Knight Household Bombs/Traitoris Ambitions, Tyranid Hive Fleet Adaptations, Craftworld Attributes, Saedath Characterizations, or Imperial Knight Household Traditions/Allegiance Oaths do.
This analysis of Super-doctrine is incorrect. Most Codexes generally have the following levels of customization available to them:
Detachment Abilities: Any ability based on being a certain type of detachment as defined in a Codex, such as a Adeptus Astartes detachment having the Company Command, Chapter Tactics, and Troops gain Objective Secured abilities.
Sub-Faction Abilities: An ability gained when all units an appropriate detachment have the same subfaction Keyword (with some exceptions). This is Chapter Tactics for Space Marines.
Faction Purity Abilities: An ability that exist on datasheets but can only be used if all units in your army have a specific faction keyword. This is Combat Doctrines for Space Marines.
Super-Doctrines (rarely): A few select sub-factions gain a bonus ability above their Faction Purity ability if all the units in the army have the same sub-faction keyword. Ultramarines gain Scions of Gilliman if all units, expect Unaligned units, in the army are Ultramarines.
The Space Marine Chapters have Super-Doctrines. I don't recall anyone else having them. The abilities can be slightly rearranged for the codexes that don't have allies available to them. For example, Orks have no Purity ability but have a much more complex detachment ability in Specialist Mobs.
If you read a bit further you would see where I addressed this:
It could be that by "superdoctrine" Voss was actually referring to what SM refer to as "Abilities" (i.e. the part that allows each Chapter to interact with the Combat Doctrines army wide rule in a different manner) and excluding the part that they refer to as "Chapter Tactics" which are the additional abilities which are similar to the CSM Legion Traits, but usually when people say "superdoctrine" they are referring to both together.
You might have your own highly-technical definition of superdoctrines, but for many people when they say superdoctrine in colloquial usage they mean it to generically refer to any and all "army-wide" sub-faction purity based abilities (i.e. anything that is dependent on all datasheets in an army sharing the same specific sub-faction keyword barring any exceptions given in the codex - which in terms of Space Marines includes both Chapter Tactics and "Abilities" like Scions of Guilliman, whereas in a faction like Orks refers only to Klan Kulturs). This contrasts to the increasingly disused term "army doctrine" (similarly derived from the Space Marine codex) which generically refers to the "army-wide" faction purity based ability. Hence why people often refer to codecies outside of Space Marines as having "superdoctrines", despite the fact that most don't have anything above and beyond the typical Detachment, Faction, and Sub-Faction abilities as you identified/defined them.
Presumably this is how Voss understands the term, as he indicated that he believed CSM to be the "first victim" as a codex without superdoctrines, yet by your strict definition of the term every army other than Space Marines is absent superdoctrines and has been for about 2 years - something which he would no doubt have been aware of. With that in mind its reasonable to conclude that he might have been using the colloquial definition of the term, rather than the technical.
Gert wrote: Chaos Space Marines, again how. Utterly ridiculous especially since the Renegade Chapters aren't in the Codex but are in a supplement that can't be bought.
There have been rumours of a new Huron.
What if he's coming alongside a campaign book that has a "Hounds of Huron" Army of Renown, plus full rules rules for custom Renegade warbands (including how to make the missing Renegades from those rules).
Tyel wrote: SM & Necrons and maybe DG (kinda) get "Super Doctrines". GW clearly abandoned the idea afterwards. Its possible they thought about giving it to CSM per playtesting, and then have either held off, or abandoned it.
I.E. - SM get a chapter bonus to the base doctrines rule. Necron Dynasties get a modifier to Command Protocols. DG get a unique contagion via a warlord trait (which you could argue is just a warlord trait).
DE get nothing. Whether I'm running Black Heart or Cult of Cursed Blade doesn't impact Power from Pain or Blade Artists. With Orks being Goffs or Bad Moons doesn't impact your Waaagh or Speed Waaagh rule.
What you refer to here as a super doctrine is part of the Necrons "Dynastic Code" ability, which is the equivalent of a Klan Kultur or any other sub-faction specific ability (unlike in Space Marines where the "Chapter Tactic" is separate from the Chapter "Ability") - the only difference is that one of the three clauses of the Dynastic Code allows for a more direct interaction with the army-wide faction purity bonus than what is typically seen in other factions. Likewise, as you indicated the DG "superdoctrine" is actually a warlord trait. Neither of these would technically meet the definiton of "superdoctrine" as alextroy defined them, though in the case of Necrons it would meet the colloquial usage of the term as I indicated. DG I would consider them to be WLTs rather than part of the superdoctrine, on the basis that you would typically get the superdoctrine ability regardless of what WLT you chose. Likewise, other factions have sub-faction based interactions with the army-wide faction purity bonus, such as TSons Cult of Magic offering a sorcerous arcana relic that reduces the cost of Cabbalistic Rituals - I wouldn't refer to that as a superdoctrine, as only one sub-faction has it and its only gained if you select that specific relic, unlike the "always on" abilities that subfactions in other armies gain.
Gert wrote: Chaos Space Marines, again how. Utterly ridiculous especially since the Renegade Chapters aren't in the Codex but are in a supplement that can't be bought.
There have been rumours of a new Huron.
What if he's coming alongside a campaign book that has a "Hounds of Huron" Army of Renown, plus full rules rules for custom Renegade warbands (including how to make the missing Renegades from those rules).
Gert wrote: Chaos Space Marines, again how. Utterly ridiculous especially since the Renegade Chapters aren't in the Codex but are in a supplement that can't be bought.
There have been rumours of a new Huron.
What if he's coming alongside a campaign book that has a "Hounds of Huron" Army of Renown, plus full rules rules for custom Renegade warbands (including how to make the missing Renegades from those rules).
Yea that's totally on MO for GW.
Yeah, I could see GW doing that. Why put all the rules into one book when you can split them into two and have people pay 100+ dollars for rules to play their faction of choice?
Also, typically what GW does when it comes to complaints of lore and other things is they just keep steamrolling the old fans and gaslighting the new fans until the only people playing the faction are the ones that like the way GW is taking the faction.
In a couple years, I'm sure someone will tell me to stop being such a negative nancy about the Chaos Marines codex when GW removes bikers, raptors, helbrutes, predators, vindicators, rhinos, and land raiders, and other things from the codex entirely and replaces them with more cultists, dinobots, and footslogging mono-use character models that fluctuate between broken and useless depending on how the next "balance dataslate" rolls.
That's how they've treated Space Marines after all. Screw anyone that likes firstborn, that model range is simply going to age over the next 20 years until it's finally shoved into Legends and forgotten about in favor of Secundus Marines, bigger Primaris Marines all equipped with Magna Bolt Auto Rifles.
Rogerio134134 wrote: This thread is hilarious, what a bunch of cry babies. I'm excited for the new codex and seems most others are too.
By "most others" do you mean the reviewers who only get their early releases if GW likes them and their content?
Because I went into an actual GW Store recently, and while the employees talked nicely about the upcoming CSM... The other people in the store either didn't know enough to comment, or were pretty peeved about it.
Rogerio134134 wrote: This thread is hilarious, what a bunch of cry babies. I'm excited for the new codex and seems most others are too.
People who get stuff for free to review don't tend to take negative viewpoints because then they stop getting stuff for free.
TBH I'm not bothered anymore. Not because I think the Codex is actually good, far from it, I just don't care about 40k anymore. HH has been my main for ages now and the new ruleset is absolute gold.
This is good. I signed, and intend to send my own email detailing my own concerns, the mass removal of lightning claws being the primary one behind the loss of Jump Lords and Sorcerers. I encourage everyone else with these concerns to do the same. If we want this fixed, we need to let our voices be heard. It worked for Eldar players with their Autarch, and for Death Guard and Thousand Sons players with their access to the Chaos units in the Imperial Armour Compendium. It can work for us here, as well.
Just complaining on Dakka isn't going to accomplish anything folks. If you want this fixed, let gw know about it.
I think the codex is going to be just fine functionally. There are some very good aspects to it, but I feel it lacks a lot of creativity and design. For my Iton Warriors, it’s a significant improvement and I’m glad I no longer have to carry codex SM, Faith and Fury, shadowspear booklet, and Vigilus Ablaze to keep track of my units. A lot what I use got better, and it looks like daemon engines will be greatly improved.
I had a fallen jump lord for the army, but thematically it doesn’t hurt to lose him and he has already been retasked to my Deathwatch.
If I played NL I would be far more bothered about not having access to a jump lord, that’s just ridiculous.
I think for what I play and how I play, the codex will be a significant improvement, but I can see how others will not share that viewpoint. The codex is going to work great for some, but poorly for many others and that’s a shame.
I like how the petition is ignorant (or pretends to not know) it's not a chaos lord. It's a raptor lord. Completely different animal (as evidenced by big fat zero melee lord models, even NL or WE, having one). It's like whining necron lords don't have access to jump packs then pointing to destroyer lord model, funnily enough very similar distinction. But who cares about lore when there is some WAAAC to be done, am I rite?
If GW should do anything it's at best making Raptor Cult army of renown, with raptor lord option, but alas, you can't minmax wombo combo that so I am strangely sure CSM crowd will pretend that obvious lore friendly option doesn't exist in their demands...
drbored wrote: That's how they've treated Space Marines after all. Screw anyone that likes firstborn, that model range is simply going to age over the next 20 years until it's finally shoved into Legends and forgotten about in favor of Secundus Marines, bigger Primaris Marines all equipped with Magna Bolt Auto Rifles.
I am not sure saying THEY ARE GASLIGHTING ME BECAUSE GW WILL SQUAT MY UGLY MODELS IN 21 YEARS!!1!one! is as big brain take as you think it is. Though at least it's improvement over constant 4chan screeching they will be squatted next week from what, last five years?
But yeah, there was absolutely no release of any Adeptus Uglysquattus (except with slightly better anatomy) this week, nor was there absolutely massive one two weeks prior. Not to mention release before that. They are getting squatted and no mountain of evidence to the contrary will say otherwise
Irbis wrote: it's not a chaos lord. It's a raptor lord.
Find me the entry for a Raptor Lord in any previous Chaos Codex. You're making up a definition where none exists.
Irbis wrote: It's like whining necron lords don't have access to jump packs then pointing to destroyer lord model, funnily enough very similar distinction.
Those two have nothing to do with one another. How do you draw these "connections"?
Irbis wrote: But who cares about lore when there is some WAAAC to be done, am I rite?
Literally who said anything about WAAC, other than you?
I like how the petition is ignorant (or pretends to not know) it's not a chaos lord. It's a raptor lord. Completely different animal (as evidenced by big fat zero melee lord models, even NL or WE, having one). It's like whining necron lords don't have access to jump packs then pointing to destroyer lord model, funnily enough very similar distinction. But who cares about lore when there is some WAAAC to be done, am I rite?
If GW should do anything it's at best making Raptor Cult army of renown, with raptor lord option, but alas, you can't minmax wombo combo that so I am strangely sure CSM crowd will pretend that obvious lore friendly option doesn't exist in their demands...
drbored wrote: That's how they've treated Space Marines after all. Screw anyone that likes firstborn, that model range is simply going to age over the next 20 years until it's finally shoved into Legends and forgotten about in favor of Secundus Marines, bigger Primaris Marines all equipped with Magna Bolt Auto Rifles.
I am not sure saying THEY ARE GASLIGHTING ME BECAUSE GW WILL SQUAT MY UGLY MODELS IN 21 YEARS!!1!one! is as big brain take as you think it is. Though at least it's improvement over constant 4chan screeching they will be squatted next week from what, last five years?
But yeah, there was absolutely no release of any Adeptus Uglysquattus (except with slightly better anatomy) this week, nor was there absolutely massive one two weeks prior. Not to mention release before that. They are getting squatted and no mountain of evidence to the contrary will say otherwise
I mean, GW, the designers, sellers, and IP holders call it a “Chaos Lord with Jump Pack”, so who should I believe now? Them, or some rando on the Internet who takes his kayfabe a bit too seriously?
I like how the petition is ignorant (or pretends to not know) it's not a chaos lord. It's a raptor lord. Completely different animal (as evidenced by big fat zero melee lord models, even NL or WE, having one). It's like whining necron lords don't have access to jump packs then pointing to destroyer lord model, funnily enough very similar distinction. But who cares about lore when there is some WAAAC to be done, am I rite?
If GW should do anything it's at best making Raptor Cult army of renown, with raptor lord option, but alas, you can't minmax wombo combo that so I am strangely sure CSM crowd will pretend that obvious lore friendly option doesn't exist in their demands...
Silly Irbis, Raptor Lords don't exist. Raptors can't have Lightning Claws you WAAC silly person. They need to be Warp Talon Lords.
I like how the petition is ignorant (or pretends to not know) it's not a chaos lord. It's a raptor lord. Completely different animal (as evidenced by big fat zero melee lord models, even NL or WE, having one). It's like whining necron lords don't have access to jump packs then pointing to destroyer lord model, funnily enough very similar distinction. But who cares about lore when there is some WAAAC to be done, am I rite?
If GW should do anything it's at best making Raptor Cult army of renown, with raptor lord option, but alas, you can't minmax wombo combo that so I am strangely sure CSM crowd will pretend that obvious lore friendly option doesn't exist in their demands...
Oh, please. It's a CSM character with a Jump Pack. You're ridiculous attempt at an argument over semantics notwithstanding. There is no distinction. This is just more of your typical attempts to argue that any faction that you don't play should be as weak as possible. And if anything is "WAAC", doing that definitely is.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Oh, please. It's a CSM character with a Jump Pack. You're ridiculous attempt at an argument over semantics notwithstanding. There is no distinction. This is just more of your typical attempts to argue that any faction that you don't play should be as weak as possible. And if anything is "WAAC", doing that definitely is.
And another of his attempts to jump into a thread to "correct" someone for some innocuous, irrelevant and utterly meaningless "mistake".
Gadzilla666 wrote: Oh, please. It's a CSM character with a Jump Pack. You're ridiculous attempt at an argument over semantics notwithstanding. There is no distinction. This is just more of your typical attempts to argue that any faction that you don't play should be as weak as possible. And if anything is "WAAC", doing that definitely is.
And another of his attempts to jump into a thread to "correct" someone for some innocuous, irrelevant and utterly meaningless "mistake".
Yup, and all Irbis ever actually accomplishes is getting everyone riled up. So, hey! Let's use that!
Hey everybody! Did the post up thread from Irbis get under your skin? Want to get under Irbis' skin? Then sign THIS!:
And then write gw your own email or letter, laying out your own problems with this ridiculous situation. Let's get our Jump Lords back. And drive ol' Irby crazy in the process.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Oh, please. It's a CSM character with a Jump Pack. You're ridiculous attempt at an argument over semantics notwithstanding. There is no distinction. This is just more of your typical attempts to argue that any faction that you don't play should be as weak as possible. And if anything is "WAAC", doing that definitely is.
And another of his attempts to jump into a thread to "correct" someone for some innocuous, irrelevant and utterly meaningless "mistake".
Yup, and all Irbis ever actually accomplishes is getting everyone riled up. So, hey! Let's use that!
Hey everybody! Did the post up thread from Irbis get under your skin? Want to get under Irbis' skin? Then sign THIS!:
And then write gw your own email or letter, laying out your own problems with this ridiculous situation. Let's get our Jump Lords back. And drive ol' Irby crazy in the process.
Bonus points for including Gad's post or a link to it in your rationale for wanting the Chaos Lord w/Jump Pack back.
I apologize for every time I butted into a thread and tried to get people to chill tf out about something. I know I did it. I now know how it feels. I'll do my best not to do it again (no guarantee, I have the memory of a goldfish).
But yeah, we've got the whole gang:
-the pedantic trying to argue definitions without doing research
-the person claiming to be eating popcorn while they read the salt while contributing nothing
-the moron trying to gaslight everyone into thinking that it's always been this way
drbored wrote: But yeah, we've got the whole gang:
-the pedantic trying to argue definitions without doing research
-the person claiming to be eating popcorn while they read the salt while contributing nothing
-the moron trying to gaslight everyone into thinking that it's always been this way
Am I missing anyone?
The person claiming we're all minmaxing power gamers because we miss the power of our old Codex.
I like how the petition is ignorant (or pretends to not know) it's not a chaos lord. It's a raptor lord. Completely different animal (as evidenced by big fat zero melee lord models, even NL or WE, having one). It's like whining necron lords don't have access to jump packs then pointing to destroyer lord model, funnily enough very similar distinction. But who cares about lore when there is some WAAAC to be done, am I rite?
If GW should do anything it's at best making Raptor Cult army of renown, with raptor lord option, but alas, you can't minmax wombo combo that so I am strangely sure CSM crowd will pretend that obvious lore friendly option doesn't exist in their demands...
drbored wrote: That's how they've treated Space Marines after all. Screw anyone that likes firstborn, that model range is simply going to age over the next 20 years until it's finally shoved into Legends and forgotten about in favor of Secundus Marines, bigger Primaris Marines all equipped with Magna Bolt Auto Rifles.
I am not sure saying THEY ARE GASLIGHTING ME BECAUSE GW WILL SQUAT MY UGLY MODELS IN 21 YEARS!!1!one! is as big brain take as you think it is. Though at least it's improvement over constant 4chan screeching they will be squatted next week from what, last five years?
But yeah, there was absolutely no release of any Adeptus Uglysquattus (except with slightly better anatomy) this week, nor was there absolutely massive one two weeks prior. Not to mention release before that. They are getting squatted and no mountain of evidence to the contrary will say otherwise
I like how you are ignorant as usuaj that the gw itself disagrees wlth you.
Notice how gw(you know. The company doing the rules call it chaos lord with jump pack
So you are, as usual, flat out wrong saying worthless junk. You are claiming basically equally convincingly that avatar of khaine is tyranid because you say so.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Sooooo.....is this going to be as epic as your deconstruction of the 4th edition Atrocity?
Not Online!!! wrote: I hope so. I think we could use someone to tear gw a new one verbally.
I would hope so, but we'll see where the righteous indignation takes me.
I've been geared up to do Cover-2-Cover reviews in the past, but the books have been so boring as to deflate my enthusiasm. Hopefully this won't be the case.
Tell ya what though, I've been listening to a lot of long-form reviews of the new 'Dex, and many of them are getting restrictions wrong or missing things that are no longer there but talking as if they are. I think some of the praise this book is getting from content creators is because they've only read them and rushed to get their reviews up.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Sooooo.....is this going to be as epic as your deconstruction of the 4th edition Atrocity?
Not Online!!! wrote: I hope so. I think we could use someone to tear gw a new one verbally.
I would hope so, but we'll see where the righteous indignation takes me.
I've been geared up to do Cover-2-Cover reviews in the past, but the books have been so boring as to deflate my enthusiasm. Hopefully this won't be the case.
Tell ya what though, I've been listening to a lot of long-form reviews of the new 'Dex, and many of them are getting restrictions wrong or missing things that are no longer there but talking as if they are. I think some of the praise this book is getting from content creators is because they've only read them and rushed to get their reviews up.
Well, i guess that would check out since YouTube is very much a first to market plattform.
I like how the petition is ignorant (or pretends to not know) it's not a chaos lord. It's a raptor lord. Completely different animal (as evidenced by big fat zero melee lord models, even NL or WE, having one). It's like whining necron lords don't have access to jump packs then pointing to destroyer lord model, funnily enough very similar distinction. But who cares about lore when there is some WAAAC to be done, am I rite?
If GW should do anything it's at best making Raptor Cult army of renown, with raptor lord option, but alas, you can't minmax wombo combo that so I am strangely sure CSM crowd will pretend that obvious lore friendly option doesn't exist in their demands...
drbored wrote: That's how they've treated Space Marines after all. Screw anyone that likes firstborn, that model range is simply going to age over the next 20 years until it's finally shoved into Legends and forgotten about in favor of Secundus Marines, bigger Primaris Marines all equipped with Magna Bolt Auto Rifles.
I am not sure saying THEY ARE GASLIGHTING ME BECAUSE GW WILL SQUAT MY UGLY MODELS IN 21 YEARS!!1!one! is as big brain take as you think it is. Though at least it's improvement over constant 4chan screeching they will be squatted next week from what, last five years?
But yeah, there was absolutely no release of any Adeptus Uglysquattus (except with slightly better anatomy) this week, nor was there absolutely massive one two weeks prior. Not to mention release before that. They are getting squatted and no mountain of evidence to the contrary will say otherwise
I understand this is the internet and you feel the need to score points to feel big, but could you at least not pick something that can be debunked with 2 minutes on Google?
I like how the petition is ignorant (or pretends to not know) it's not a chaos lord. It's a raptor lord. Completely different animal (as evidenced by big fat zero melee lord models, even NL or WE, having one). It's like whining necron lords don't have access to jump packs then pointing to destroyer lord model, funnily enough very similar distinction. But who cares about lore when there is some WAAAC to be done, am I rite?
If GW should do anything it's at best making Raptor Cult army of renown, with raptor lord option, but alas, you can't minmax wombo combo that so I am strangely sure CSM crowd will pretend that obvious lore friendly option doesn't exist in their demands...
drbored wrote: That's how they've treated Space Marines after all. Screw anyone that likes firstborn, that model range is simply going to age over the next 20 years until it's finally shoved into Legends and forgotten about in favor of Secundus Marines, bigger Primaris Marines all equipped with Magna Bolt Auto Rifles.
I am not sure saying THEY ARE GASLIGHTING ME BECAUSE GW WILL SQUAT MY UGLY MODELS IN 21 YEARS!!1!one! is as big brain take as you think it is. Though at least it's improvement over constant 4chan screeching they will be squatted next week from what, last five years?
But yeah, there was absolutely no release of any Adeptus Uglysquattus (except with slightly better anatomy) this week, nor was there absolutely massive one two weeks prior. Not to mention release before that. They are getting squatted and no mountain of evidence to the contrary will say otherwise
I understand this is the internet and you feel the need to score points to feel big, but could you at least not pick something that can be debunked with 2 minutes on Google?
Ok, I want everyone to take note of just who is to the left of the Chaos Lord with Jump Pack in that image that ClockworkZion just posted. It's the leader of the Red Corsairs himself: Huron Blackheart. He was "rotated out" just like the Chaos Lord with Jump Pack, and at the same time. But he's still in the codex. Same for the Exalted Champion, whose rules are based on a model that gw hasn't sold in so long that I personally can't remember how long it's been gone (Can anyone else remember when they stopped selling it? It would be interesting to know).
The criteria for what did and did not make it into this book was completely arbitrary from what I can tell. It doesn't seem to matter if they currently made the model when it was written, or not. It didn't matter if an option was in the kit, or not. Or whether it required a simple kitbash, or actual conversion.
It's just completely arbitrary and scattershot. And it really makes me wonder what on earth was going through their heads when they wrote it.
Gadzilla666 wrote: The criteria for what did and did not make it into this book was completely arbitrary from what I can tell. It doesn't seem to matter if they currently made the model when it was written, or not. It didn't matter if an option was in the kit, or not. Or whether it required a simple kitbash, or actual conversion.
It's just completely arbitrary and scattershot. And it really makes me wonder what on earth was going through their heads when they wrote it.
I legitimately believe that it is either outright malice ("Just buy new models!", I frequently encounter this response from ghoulish consoomer whales) or the belief is that certain parts are permissible to swap but others aren't (i.e., the Chaos Terminator Lord can use the combi-plasma from the Terminators kit, but the powered armour one can't use the combi weapons from the Chosen kit).
Speaking of red corsairs and to lead away from another 2 pages of talking about missing loadouts and pirating, what are the odds of the fire and fade warlord trait getting a hefty berf early on?
Also still in the belief huron will get a new mini given the primaris chapter master profile, but simultaneously I am a little gutted he's not a proper psyker now.
Dudeface wrote: Speaking of red corsairs and to lead away from another 2 pages of talking about missing loadouts and pirating, what are the odds of the fire and fade warlord trait getting a hefty berf early on?
How often do GW come after Warlord traits?
Only thing I forsee is Oblits being bumped to 120 pretty soon after the Codex comes out.
Dudeface wrote: Also still in the belief huron will get a new mini given the primaris chapter master profile, but simultaneously I am a little gutted he's not a proper psyker now.
Campaign supplement. New Huron (NuRon!), 'Hounds of Huron' Army of Renown, and all the custom warband rules/relics/strats/warlord traits that were cut from this book/not finished before this book was sent to the printers.
Dudeface wrote: Also still in the belief huron will get a new mini given the primaris chapter master profile, but simultaneously I am a little gutted he's not a proper psyker now.
I think he's guaranteed to get a new miniature at some point - though I don't know if it's going to be anytime soon. I think his loss of psychic powers is a bit crap, since that was always a nice buff over the standard CSM lord - though admittedly the CSM psychic discipline (he has access to) is very poor overall so he's not missing out on too much. Nice to see GW remembered Huron was actually a Chapter Master, however.
Dudeface wrote: Speaking of red corsairs and to lead away from another 2 pages of talking about missing loadouts and pirating, what are the odds of the fire and fade warlord trait getting a hefty berf early on?
Also still in the belief huron will get a new mini given the primaris chapter master profile, but simultaneously I am a little gutted he's not a proper psyker now.
Are you referring to the Red Corsairs WT Dusk Raider? Why would they? There's an entire faction that can do that without needing to be within 6' of the Warlord. And yeah, Huron needs a new model.
Oblits are good as a package - but I'm not sure they are demanding immediate nerfs. The lack of core - and therefore synergy - feels like it should keep them in check. (Unless there are some obvious stratagem blowups I've skipped over.)
I mean for 90 points you get (on average) 2 better lascannons or 2.5 havoc autocannons or 1.5 reaper chaincannons. The first is solid (extremely so 1/3rd of the time, but bad 1/3rd of the time) - the others I feel not so much.
Dudeface wrote: Speaking of red corsairs and to lead away from another 2 pages of talking about missing loadouts and pirating, what are the odds of the fire and fade warlord trait getting a hefty berf early on?
Also still in the belief huron will get a new mini given the primaris chapter master profile, but simultaneously I am a little gutted he's not a proper psyker now.
Are you referring to the Red Corsairs WT Dusk Raider? Why would they? There's an entire faction that can do that without needing to be within 6' of the Warlord. And yeah, Huron needs a new model.
Other armies than can accomplish similar keep getting further limitations put on them, in this case that warlord trait si a free 2cp strat a turn in essence.
Huron (and the warsmith) definitely need new models. Otherwise, the removal of the chaos lord with jumppack makes even less sense, since all three of those models are not currently available to buy but more than half of them still have rules.
Dudeface wrote: Speaking of red corsairs and to lead away from another 2 pages of talking about missing loadouts and pirating, what are the odds of the fire and fade warlord trait getting a hefty berf early on?
Also still in the belief huron will get a new mini given the primaris chapter master profile, but simultaneously I am a little gutted he's not a proper psyker now.
Are you referring to the Red Corsairs WT Dusk Raider? Why would they? There's an entire faction that can do that without needing to be within 6' of the Warlord. And yeah, Huron needs a new model.
Other armies than can accomplish similar keep getting further limitations put on them, in this case that warlord trait si a free 2cp strat a turn in essence.
Not exactly. The Red Corsairs WT requires that the unit be within 6' of the Warlord, and only works on CORE. That precludes DAEMONKIN and every vehicle besides Hellbrutes and Contemptors.
Fire and Fade works on whatever unit you target with it, regardless of its location relative to any other unit, and basically works on everything in the faction, from basic infantry to a Scorpion.
So yeah, the Red Corsairs WT is "free", but it's far less flexible.
Gert wrote: - Orks, somehow. This one I have no rationale for.
Clans are encoded into the ork's genes, any time any pile of orks grows large enough, the same clans will appear. The few orks that don't fit anywhere become freebootas. Lore-wise it's impossible for new clans to come into existence.
That said, nothing would have prevented GW from just having Waaagh!s as custom subfaction - it will probably make a huge difference if the orks you are fighting are part of the Great Waaagh!, Waaagh! Wazzdakka or from Armorgeddun.
Gert wrote: - Orks, somehow. This one I have no rationale for.
Clans are encoded into the ork's genes, any time any pile of orks grows large enough, the same clans will appear. The few orks that don't fit anywhere become freebootas. Lore-wise it's impossible for new clans to come into existence.
That's not even vaguely true. There are other clans, they've even been referred to by name over the years (Spider somethings come to mind from a fair bit back). I suppose they might have changed it in more recent books, but Clan kultur is taught, not genetic. When they scoop up wild boy yoofs, they get taught how to be 'proper' clan orks by nobs or older boyz.
I'll be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the positive reception from the various Youtubers reviewing this book. I'll sound like a conspiracy crank I'm sure, but the response was so *uniformly* positive in a way that I've pretty much not seen on Tabletop Tactics, Goonhammer, and others, that, when combined with the fact that GW stock continues to be in the toilet of late, I feel GW must have requested positive reviews.
I get it, it's been 5 years since CSM has gotten a book, they have 2 wounds now, all the legions are in one book, etc. etc. ... but to gloss over or omit mention of the stuff that got squatted (boy, Tabletop Tactics saying "who cared about mutilators anyway" really pissed me off) so thoroughly is just insulting. There's lots to be excited by, but that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't complain about egregious issues. Like, yeah, the Lord with Jump Pack probably personally impacted lots of folks, but it really is just one aspect of a large, concerning trend that people should be paying attention to.
I love these content creators and what they do for the hobby, and that's why I find it so concerning that they seem to be readily shifting into the propaganda role. I used to sub to several of them, but I'm proud that the only one I still sub to (Deployment Zone/Liam) is the only channel who remotely took GW to task for these changes.
DZ Winters seemed to like it (then again he said that Possessed with Marks would be great, yet another reviewer getting something quite important wrong, or missing details of restrictions).
Gene St. Ealer wrote: I'll be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the positive reception from the various Youtubers reviewing this book. I'll sound like a conspiracy crank I'm sure, but the response was so *uniformly* positive in a way that I've pretty much not seen on Tabletop Tactics, Goonhammer, and others, that, when combined with the fact that GW stock continues to be in the toilet of late, I feel GW must have requested positive reviews.
It's not a conspiracy by any means - if they were trashing GW they simply wouldn't get the material.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: I'll be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the positive reception from the various Youtubers reviewing this book. I'll sound like a conspiracy crank I'm sure, but the response was so *uniformly* positive in a way that I've pretty much not seen on Tabletop Tactics, Goonhammer, and others, that, when combined with the fact that GW stock continues to be in the toilet of late, I feel GW must have requested positive reviews.
It's not a conspiracy by any means - if they were trashing GW they simply wouldn't get the material.
Find the Tabletop Tactics video for the preview warzone (Nachmund?) they were openly condemning it, to the point of openly saying that people shouldn't buy it because it wasn't worthwhile and ends with a 10 minute rant.
This vid- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDsCaBMYfIs Its a far cry from this coverage- they were genuinely angry about that book, and didn't hide it at all.
I can think of Goonhammer reviews that were more critical, too. That splitting up this book the way they did (into 4 parts), didn't leave room for overall analysis was... weird.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: I'll be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the positive reception from the various Youtubers reviewing this book. I'll sound like a conspiracy crank I'm sure, but the response was so *uniformly* positive in a way that I've pretty much not seen on Tabletop Tactics, Goonhammer, and others, that, when combined with the fact that GW stock continues to be in the toilet of late, I feel GW must have requested positive reviews.
It's not a conspiracy by any means - if they were trashing GW they simply wouldn't get the material.
Find the Tabletop Tactics video for the preview warzone (Nachmund?) they were openly condemning it, to the point of openly saying that people shouldn't buy it because it wasn't worthwhile and ends with a 10 minute rant.
This vid- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDsCaBMYfIs Its a far cry from this coverage- they were genuinely angry about that book, and didn't hide it at all.
I can think of Goonhammer reviews that were more critical, too. That splitting up this book the way they into 4 parts didn't leave room for overall analysis was... weird.
Exactly. Tabletop Tactics and GH have certainly provided honest feedback before, that's what made this feel so frustrating. I am fine with playing up the positives in this book (of which there are certainly many), but it's just dishonest to act like the negatives don't matter.
And on the Winters topic, I graded on a curve a bit because he doesn't have a standard CSM army (plus, his big thing these days is about rules complexity, and he's right, this book is not as complex as some of the others). He was positive but he mentioned the negatives and I don't disagree with him, I just come from a different POV.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: I'll be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the positive reception from the various Youtubers reviewing this book. I'll sound like a conspiracy crank I'm sure, but the response was so *uniformly* positive in a way that I've pretty much not seen on Tabletop Tactics, Goonhammer, and others, that, when combined with the fact that GW stock continues to be in the toilet of late, I feel GW must have requested positive reviews.
GW stock is going down because it's still coming down from its record high during lockdowns. It's still not dropped below even the peak of 2019.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: I'll be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the positive reception from the various Youtubers reviewing this book. I'll sound like a conspiracy crank I'm sure, but the response was so *uniformly* positive in a way that I've pretty much not seen on Tabletop Tactics, Goonhammer, and others, that, when combined with the fact that GW stock continues to be in the toilet of late, I feel GW must have requested positive reviews.
GW stock is going down because it's still coming down from its record high during lockdowns. It's still not dropped below even the peak of 2019.
Yeah, fair, I don't disagree (plus, look at the broader market, it's certainly down too). But I get why the share price drop would agitate the higher-ups and cause them to try and bolster customer sentiment.
Which by and large seems to have worked. Outside of Dakka, you see most of the negatives of the new book being dismissed or downvoted.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: I'll be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the positive reception from the various Youtubers reviewing this book. I'll sound like a conspiracy crank I'm sure, but the response was so *uniformly* positive in a way that I've pretty much not seen on Tabletop Tactics, Goonhammer, and others, that, when combined with the fact that GW stock continues to be in the toilet of late, I feel GW must have requested positive reviews.
I get it, it's been 5 years since CSM has gotten a book, they have 2 wounds now, all the legions are in one book, etc. etc. ... but to gloss over or omit mention of the stuff that got squatted (boy, Tabletop Tactics saying "who cared about mutilators anyway" really pissed me off) so thoroughly is just insulting. There's lots to be excited by, but that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't complain about egregious issues. Like, yeah, the Lord with Jump Pack probably personally impacted lots of folks, but it really is just one aspect of a large, concerning trend that people should be paying attention to.
I love these content creators and what they do for the hobby, and that's why I find it so concerning that they seem to be readily shifting into the propaganda role. I used to sub to several of them, but I'm proud that the only one I still sub to (Deployment Zone/Liam) is the only channel who remotely took GW to task for these changes.
Decouple your head from the stock market. That isn't how it works. Especially when the whole world is upside down.
The book offers lots of interesting ways to build armies that seem fun to play. The reviewers are likely less concerned about the particular issues raised here. And honestly if you're buying the book then it's probably time to move past it. If you're not then get those emails to GW.
The wider community is not going to share the same concerns.
H.B.M.C. wrote: DZ Winters seemed to like it (then again he said that Possessed with Marks would be great, yet another reviewer getting something quite important wrong, or missing details of restrictions).
What did Liam say?
Liam subtitled his review "Ruined Before Release?". His biggest concern was that the codex wasn't written with the Warzone Nephalim changes in mind. A lot of it's strengths, both in actual power and the ability to customize your squads, seems to come from assigning relics to your Aspiring Champions. Which costs CP in the pre-game stage, which the Nephalim rules hit pretty hard. He said he felt "underwhelmed" by the codex.
SayHi Paul was also pretty critical of the wargear restrictions in his review. Of course, one of his many armies is Night Lords. So, yeah.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: Which by and large seems to have worked. Outside of Dakka, you see most of the negatives of the new book being dismissed or downvoted.
I dunno, I've seen a fair amount from both sides on social media and the little look I've had on B&C since it went back up. I'm not in any Chaos FB groups because I generally can't stand it but before I left the Iron Warriors one it seemed there was a fair amount on both sides.
That being said the vast majority of complaints I've seen have been focused on the removal of options and the positives have been "Yay it's not utter garbage" or people haven't actually read the rules correctly.
Daedalus81 wrote: The book offers lots of interesting ways to build armies that seem fun to play. The reviewers are likely less concerned about the particular issues raised here. And honestly if you're buying the book then it's probably time to move past it. If you're not then get those emails to GW.
The wider community is not going to share the same concerns.
I'm not sure it's fair to say people should "move past it" when the book isn't even out yet. I think I reserve the right to be miffed that the army I spent that last year and a half converting isn't usable anymore because someone on the rules team decided not to play fair with CSM.
Gert wrote: - Orks, somehow. This one I have no rationale for.
Clans are encoded into the ork's genes, any time any pile of orks grows large enough, the same clans will appear. The few orks that don't fit anywhere become freebootas. Lore-wise it's impossible for new clans to come into existence.
That's not even vaguely true. There are other clans, they've even been referred to by name over the years (Spider somethings come to mind from a fair bit back). I suppose they might have changed it in more recent books, but Clan kultur is taught, not genetic. When they scoop up wild boy yoofs, they get taught how to be 'proper' clan orks by nobs or older boyz.
Feel free to quote source on that. The lore has been that way since at least third edition.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: I'll be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the positive reception from the various Youtubers reviewing this book. I'll sound like a conspiracy crank I'm sure, but the response was so *uniformly* positive in a way that I've pretty much not seen on Tabletop Tactics, Goonhammer, and others, that, when combined with the fact that GW stock continues to be in the toilet of late, I feel GW must have requested positive reviews.
I get it, it's been 5 years since CSM has gotten a book, they have 2 wounds now, all the legions are in one book, etc. etc. ... but to gloss over or omit mention of the stuff that got squatted (boy, Tabletop Tactics saying "who cared about mutilators anyway" really pissed me off) so thoroughly is just insulting. There's lots to be excited by, but that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't complain about egregious issues. Like, yeah, the Lord with Jump Pack probably personally impacted lots of folks, but it really is just one aspect of a large, concerning trend that people should be paying attention to.
I love these content creators and what they do for the hobby, and that's why I find it so concerning that they seem to be readily shifting into the propaganda role. I used to sub to several of them, but I'm proud that the only one I still sub to (Deployment Zone/Liam) is the only channel who remotely took GW to task for these changes.
Decouple your head from the stock market. That isn't how it works. Especially when the whole world is upside down.
The book offers lots of interesting ways to build armies that seem fun to play. The reviewers are likely less concerned about the particular issues raised here. And honestly if you're buying the book then it's probably time to move past it. If you're not then get those emails to GW.
The wider community is not going to share the same concerns.
Voss wrote: Waaagh the Orks (and also some snippets from 'Ere we Go and Freebooters, iirc)
Now you
Ah, I see, so you haven't updated your knowledge on ork lore for thirty years and still feel like your opinion is relevant to codices written today. Sorry, it's not.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: I'll be honest, I'm pretty baffled by the positive reception from the various Youtubers reviewing this book. I'll sound like a conspiracy crank I'm sure, but the response was so *uniformly* positive in a way that I've pretty much not seen on Tabletop Tactics, Goonhammer, and others, that, when combined with the fact that GW stock continues to be in the toilet of late, I feel GW must have requested positive reviews.
I get it, it's been 5 years since CSM has gotten a book, they have 2 wounds now, all the legions are in one book, etc. etc. ... but to gloss over or omit mention of the stuff that got squatted (boy, Tabletop Tactics saying "who cared about mutilators anyway" really pissed me off) so thoroughly is just insulting. There's lots to be excited by, but that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't complain about egregious issues. Like, yeah, the Lord with Jump Pack probably personally impacted lots of folks, but it really is just one aspect of a large, concerning trend that people should be paying attention to.
I love these content creators and what they do for the hobby, and that's why I find it so concerning that they seem to be readily shifting into the propaganda role. I used to sub to several of them, but I'm proud that the only one I still sub to (Deployment Zone/Liam) is the only channel who remotely took GW to task for these changes.
Decouple your head from the stock market. That isn't how it works. Especially when the whole world is upside down.
The book offers lots of interesting ways to build armies that seem fun to play. The reviewers are likely less concerned about the particular issues raised here. And honestly if you're buying the book then it's probably time to move past it. If you're not then get those emails to GW.
The wider community is not going to share the same concerns.
*be polite be polite be polite be polite*
Dude, I promise you that EVERY suit at GW is freaking out about the stock tanking. I know corporations and I know GW, and it's very, very naive to act like that wouldn't have an impact.
And the platitudes about the book... Yeah, of course it has "interesting ways to build armies that seem fun to play". Has there been a 9e codex yet that didn't meet that incredibly low bar?
And y'know, I can speak for the wider community too. Every CSM player with an invalidated model is going to share at least some of these concerns.
You make some great posts here but you're really not convincing anybody when you move away from the data-driven approach into punditry territory. Your statements mean feth all, just like mine.
Voss wrote: Waaagh the Orks (and also some snippets from 'Ere we Go and Freebooters, iirc)
Now you
Ah, I see, so you haven't updated your knowledge on ork lore for thirty years and still feel like your opinion is relevant to codices written today.
Sorry, it's not.
Ah, indeed. Thanks for the laugh, and I'll just leave the layers of irony alone.
Dude, I promise you that EVERY suit at GW is freaking out about the stock tanking. I know corporations and I know GW, and it's very, very naive to act like that wouldn't have an impact.
And the platitudes about the book... Yeah, of course it has "interesting ways to build armies that seem fun to play". Has there been a 9e codex yet that didn't meet that incredibly low bar?
And y'know, I can speak for the wider community too. Every CSM player with an invalidated model is going to share at least some of these concerns.
You make some great posts here but you're really not convincing anybody when you move away from the data-driven approach into punditry territory. Your statements mean feth all, just like mine.
What do you think is moving GW's bottom line? The Horus Heresy box or a $55 book?
This is a dividend stock - also meaning it is not a rapid growth stock. It's value is derived by the published dividend. GW will release their financials on 7/26, but they already gave rough figures:
Games Workshop is pleased to announce that for the year to 29 May 2022, we estimate the Group’s core revenue to be not less than £385 million (2020/21: £353 million) and royalties receivable of £28 million (2020/21: £16 million). The Group’s profit before tax is estimated to be not less than £155 million (2020/21: £151 million).
As in the prior year, in recognition of our staff’s contribution to these results, we have paid during the year profit share cash payments amounting in total to £10 million (2020/21: £13 million). These are paid in cash on an equal basis to each member of staff. Dividends declared in the year were £77 million, 235 pence per share (2020/21: £77 million, 235p per share).
So do you really think they're scrambling to make sure CSM gets positive reviews when sales and profit are up? One could argue that inflation makes the sales improvement negligible, but that's the world we live in at the moment. In all likelihood you will see the GW stock jump up again temporarily for investors to catch that dividend.
GW isn't going to waste time micromanaging this book. Their bigger issue is profitability, which went from ~43% to ~40% so clearly there are logistic headwinds affecting the company. That's what they're going to be worried about.
Dude, I promise you that EVERY suit at GW is freaking out about the stock tanking. I know corporations and I know GW, and it's very, very naive to act like that wouldn't have an impact.
And the platitudes about the book... Yeah, of course it has "interesting ways to build armies that seem fun to play". Has there been a 9e codex yet that didn't meet that incredibly low bar?
And y'know, I can speak for the wider community too. Every CSM player with an invalidated model is going to share at least some of these concerns.
You make some great posts here but you're really not convincing anybody when you move away from the data-driven approach into punditry territory. Your statements mean feth all, just like mine.
What do you think is moving GW's bottom line? The Horus Heresy box or a $55 book?
This is a dividend stock - also meaning it is not a rapid growth stock. It's value is derived by the published dividend. GW will release their financials on 7/26, but they already gave rough figures:
Games Workshop is pleased to announce that for the year to 29 May 2022, we estimate the Group’s core revenue to be not less than £385 million (2020/21: £353 million) and royalties receivable of £28 million (2020/21: £16 million). The Group’s profit before tax is estimated to be not less than £155 million (2020/21: £151 million).
As in the prior year, in recognition of our staff’s contribution to these results, we have paid during the year profit share cash payments amounting in total to £10 million (2020/21: £13 million). These are paid in cash on an equal basis to each member of staff. Dividends declared in the year were £77 million, 235 pence per share (2020/21: £77 million, 235p per share).
So do you really think they're scrambling to make sure CSM gets positive reviews when sales and profit are up? One could argue that inflation makes the sales improvement negligible, but that's the world we live in at the moment. In all likelihood you will see the GW stock jump up again temporarily for investors to catch that dividend.
GW isn't going to waste time micromanaging this book. Their bigger issue is profitability, which went from ~43% to ~40% so clearly there are logistic headwinds affecting the company. That's what they're going to be worried about.
I don't think this CSM book is moving GW's bottom line, certainly; but I think even the accountants are probably aware of the fact that CSM is their second biggest 40k revenue stream. Yes, it's a distant second, of course, but it's less about the book and more about the player base.
Also, sales and profit are up but sales are flat (adjusting for inflation) and profit is down. Both of those things could further impact the stock (and you could argue that they already have, given that it continues to fall). Who knows what guidance will be but I'd be very surprised if the stock pops period.
And GW is certainly a dividend stock, but I suspect all those directors and such who are compensated non-negligibly in stock are keen on it bouncing back. Exxon is certainly a dividend stock but I'm sure you'd agree that their execs have been extremely happy with recent performance and are doing what they can (i.e. not ramping up drilling) to keep that up.
Yea, but you have the Brexit reality on top of inflation. Kingfisher - the UK Home Depot equivalent is also down similarly and that's a segment that is making lots of money right now, but investors are worried about rate hikes and the *future* effects of local and world events.
It's a nutty world on top of a market that is irrational. GW's target is the dollars they can put into the dividend. The stock fluctuation is just something that follows the whims of primates.
Moving back to the reviews, I feel like most of them were positive for two reasons: the army got stronger, and the reviewers likely don't play CSM.
The people most aware of what is missing are the people with long standing armies, not the people just getting into CSM or reviewing it without playing it before.
I sincerely hope we'll see some FAQs on this, but failing that I guess I'll be running a Terminator Lord using the NL Terminator Praetor.
At least the model is cool I guess?
If I had my way on this book I'd be arguing for the army to start with a legion design and then sprinkle in the more mutated elements on top. If anyone should still feel like you're running a HH legion it's the CSM.
Is this thread about gw's financial situation, or the situation with the CSM codex?
@Daedalus: Help me out here. What, exactly, is "fun" and "interesting" about everyone's jump pack equipped Characters and lighting claw and combi-weapon equipped Aspiring Champions (and characters) suddenly becoming illegal?
We've got a legitimate beef here. Sign the petition folks:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Is this thread about gw's financial situation, or the situation with the CSM codex?
@Daedalus: Help me out here. What, exactly, is "fun" and "interesting" about everyone's jump pack equipped Characters and lighting claw and combi-weapon equipped Aspiring Champions (and characters) suddenly becoming illegal?
We've got a legitimate beef here. Sign the petition folks:
EviscerationPlague wrote: At minimum they could've given Chosen slightly better Bolters like they did for Sternguard, but that would've been too difficult I guess.
Only if they get to roll all the range options into Accursed Guns.
It will be interesting to compare how long it takes for Loyalists to get the upgraded Land Raiders/ vehicles compared to how long it took for the second wound to finally arrive.
My guess? Loyalists will see the upgraded vehicles before Death Guard and Thousand Sons.
Don’t get me wrong, I have firstborn Marine armies as well and would quite like their vehicles upgraded but it will definitely add to my Chaotic sense of injustice.
Sonsoftherock wrote: It will be interesting to compare how long it takes for Loyalists to get the upgraded Land Raiders/ vehicles compared to how long it took for the second wound to finally arrive.
My guess? Loyalists will see the upgraded vehicles before Death Guard and Thousand Sons.
Don’t get me wrong, I have firstborn Marine armies as well and would quite like their vehicles upgraded but it will definitely add to my Chaotic sense of injustice.
I'd say the more immediate question is 'how long until a Chaos Kratos datasheet?' I (kinda) get waiting until the new codex is released, but each day after is going to feel like a burn, since the loyalist datasheet went up before the Kratos was even released.
ClockworkZion wrote: Moving back to the reviews, I feel like most of them were positive for two reasons: the army got stronger, and the reviewers likely don't play CSM..
The main author of the Goonhammer review is a Chaos main who understands the rules, backstory, and game mechanics intimately. The review was fair, balanced, and nuanced. The outpouring of negativity on this website says more about Dakka's attitude than anything about the new Marine book. Yes, it sucks to lose options (accursed weapons, jump packs) but the book overall looks pretty good.
Sonsoftherock wrote: It will be interesting to compare how long it takes for Loyalists to get the upgraded Land Raiders/ vehicles compared to how long it took for the second wound to finally arrive.
My guess? Loyalists will see the upgraded vehicles before Death Guard and Thousand Sons.
Don’t get me wrong, I have firstborn Marine armies as well and would quite like their vehicles upgraded but it will definitely add to my Chaotic sense of injustice.
Not much of a bet. I'm sure all three will get the upgraded vehicle stats when GW publishes the next version of their respective Codexes. So probably Space Marines shortly after 10th Edition drops with Death Guard and Thousand Sons at some random point in the three years that follow.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Is this thread about gw's financial situation, or the situation with the CSM codex?
@Daedalus: Help me out here. What, exactly, is "fun" and "interesting" about everyone's jump pack equipped Characters and lighting claw and combi-weapon equipped Aspiring Champions (and characters) suddenly becoming illegal?
We've got a legitimate beef here. Sign the petition folks:
Those issues are a relatively minor encumbrance for me, because my champs will just become unit dorks. That isn't to say I don't feel for you, but I'm simply going to readjust my army. I signed the petition, because I think it's worthwhile, but I'm just highlighting why other people might not be perceiving this in the same fashion.
Zachectomy wrote: I know Rob (TheChirurgeon from Goonhammer, who wrote most of the multi-part review) personally and he's a Chaos main who understands the rules, backstory, and game mechanics intimately. The review was fair, balanced, and nuanced. The outpouring of negativity on this website says more about Dakka's toxicity than anything about the new Marine book. Chaos marines aren't perfect but jeez do you guys love to whine
I do find it surprising that people expect reviews to go "look at all these improved units and these boosted, flavourful legion traits and marks. This seems strong but not broken like Tyranids so most likely won't be cut to pieces in 6 weeks time... oh but since I can't have lightning claws on a Raptor Champion the codex is dead to me 0/10."
With that said I wouldn't be surprised if GW do go "okay, FAQ, you can buy a jump pack with a lord for 25~ points".
But if people think this is a genuinely weak codex I feel they are reading different stuff.
alextroy wrote: Not much of a bet. I'm sure all three will get the upgraded vehicle stats when GW publishes the next version of their respective Codexes. So probably Space Marines shortly after 10th Edition drops with Death Guard and Thousand Sons at some random point in the three years that follow.
It will make a great hype article - "updated marine vehicles - coming to your codex in the future!".
If I was a newbie to 40k or just knew very little about CSM prior to this book, I probably would think this is a pretty solid codex. For the most part its only through the lens of the past that it becomes disappointing, mainly in the loss of legacy options (very few of which I am actually bothered by). The only exception to that is the inconsistency with which things like accursed weapons and special/heavy limitations are being applied, but that doesn't really hamper the competitiveness/power level of the book, only the logic and arguably the verisimilitude of it.
On that basis, I get the generally positive reviews that the book is receiving it, because putting those quibbles aside - which from my experience very few people in the broader community actually care about, especially if they aren't already heavily invested mind body and soul into a faction both tabletop and lore-wise - its otherwise a pretty good codex, ESPECIALLY if you aren't familiar enough with the faction to know or care about what was lost (have to agree with the dude who said "who cares about mutilators anyway" - I certainly don't, never used them myself, never seen someone else use them, honestly forgot that they existed in the first place, etc. The loss of HQ options hurts more IMO).
Zachectomy wrote: I know Rob (TheChirurgeon from Goonhammer, who wrote most of the multi-part review) personally and he's a Chaos main who understands the rules, backstory, and game mechanics intimately. The review was fair, balanced, and nuanced. The outpouring of negativity on this website says more about Dakka's toxicity than anything about the new Marine book. Chaos marines aren't perfect but jeez do you guys love to whine
I do find it surprising that people expect reviews to go "look at all these improved units and these boosted, flavourful legion traits and marks. This seems strong but not broken like Tyranids so most likely won't be cut to pieces in 6 weeks time... oh but since I can't have lightning claws on a Raptor Champion the codex is dead to me 0/10."
With that said I wouldn't be surprised if GW do go "okay, FAQ, you can buy a jump pack with a lord for 25~ points".
But if people think this is a genuinely weak codex I feel they are reading different stuff.
I think there is a pretty good line though between constant praise and valid criticism. You don't have to say the codex is 0/10, but there are multiple valid things to be critical of.
That being said, there is also a lot of good meat in the codex. The consolidated Legions with WLT/Strats/Relics is really nice, though I think they could have put a bit more effort into Red Corsairs and Creations of Bile.
Powerwise, It's not a weak codex and it's also not S-tier either. This is a good thing, and it seems to be more a long the lines of the previous Knight codexes. There are some very strong Datasheets (Abbadon, Possessed and MoP come to mind) but in general there seems to be nothing super oppressive right now. Though, who knows in a few weeks we could find something super broken.
I think some of the issue comes from how GW decides what to do with their IP.
Take for example Shroud Runners from the recent Eldar release. They're a very nice kit. The theme fits very well within Siam-hann, or within Alaitoc. The rules are good, the models are good looking.
But who was asking for that kit? Who ever said "We need Rangers on bikes?"
No one said that. People were asking for Plastic Fire Dragons, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks and Striking Scorpions though. Those models are very hotly sought by Eldar players.
For some reason, GW decided to do something new, rather than do a second set of Aspect Warriors.
Another example that comes to mind is MK6 armor in Heresy.
It's great that it's in plastic. But who was asking for it to be upscaled? There was literally nothing wrong with the old scale, and now we have two marks of plastic armor out of scale with the third and most recent.
I do not personally believe that there is anyone at GW who's job it is to ensure continuity among model designs. From what I've heard discussed in various places of the web, is Sculptors make a thing, upper management decides if they like it and back it's production, rules team makes rules for it, fluff team writes it. The problem here is that the sculptors have basically no QC/QA person that they have to answer to. Which is why we have lots of primaris vehicles lacking the signature Heavy Bolters of the Space Marine legions, in favor of having lots of antiquated and frankly out of place looking stubbers everywhere.
Some people are upset with the guns for the new LoV dwarves. Some people are upset specifically with the rules, no jump pack lords as you're all discussing, where as three years ago we got a random named character jump lord legion locked and not really useable by other legions.
I guess what I'm saying is, there just doesn't seem to be a top-down decision maker at the company who ensures consistency in design. Thus there is a lot of flip-flopping.
Sasori wrote: Powerwise, It's not a weak codex and it's also not S-tier either. This is a good thing, and it seems to be more a long the lines of the previous Knight codexes. There are some very strong Datasheets (Abbadon, Possessed and MoP come to mind) but in general there seems to be nothing super oppressive right now. Though, who knows in a few weeks we could find something super broken.
I have a feeling Creations of Bile could be sleeper overpowered. Being able to fight on death just ends certain armies ability to efficiently trade.
But admittedly you won't have Harlequin speed across the whole army, so it may not be as oppressive.
Sonsoftherock wrote: It will be interesting to compare how long it takes for Loyalists to get the upgraded Land Raiders/ vehicles compared to how long it took for the second wound to finally arrive.
My guess? Loyalists will see the upgraded vehicles before Death Guard and Thousand Sons.
Don’t get me wrong, I have firstborn Marine armies as well and would quite like their vehicles upgraded but it will definitely add to my Chaotic sense of injustice.
I'd say the more immediate question is 'how long until a Chaos Kratos datasheet?' I (kinda) get waiting until the new codex is released, but each day after is going to feel like a burn, since the loyalist datasheet went up before the Kratos was even released.
As a Thousand Sons and White Scars player I'm hoping that everything falls into line quickly. The Chaos codex isn't even out yet though so I'll be giving it a couple of weeks before I start emailing GW asking for some rules parity (I have already emailed them about both a "traitor" Kratos and the power level of the Kratos which is out of whack with its points).
I would love some updated spawn for Thousand Sons to go with updated tanks and a Kratos for all "traitors"!
One aspect of the CSM codex that I think is pretty annoying for any CSM players that want some cult troops is that you now have to buy several codexes to field them. I can understand a reluctance to duplicate data sheets and have them diverge, but as the panoply of power armoured astartes codexes all share so many data sheets that's a non-starter as a justification.
ClockworkZion wrote: Moving back to the reviews, I feel like most of them were positive for two reasons: the army got stronger, and the reviewers likely don't play CSM..
The main author of the Goonhammer review is a Chaos main who understands the rules, backstory, and game mechanics intimately. The review was fair, balanced, and nuanced. The outpouring of negativity on this website says more about Dakka's attitude than anything about the new Marine book. Yes, it sucks to lose options (accursed weapons, jump packs) but the book overall looks pretty good.
"If you don't like it that's on you".
Yes the codex is pretty well placed power level wise, and is stronger than the last one, and has some very good content (my personal favourite being that each subfaction essentially has a mini-supplement worth of content). As much as it is correct to praise what is good, criticising things that are bad is not to be shied away from - and just like with the Eldar Autarch fiasco GW has said they will do one thing, then immediately acted completely at odds to their stated position (mainly stating that range rotation will not affect rules, then immediately pressing delete on chaos units in the rotation). This coupled with the usual standards of quality control when it comes to applying common sense to what datasheet options units get (either apply no model no rules or don't, not some inconsistent blend of not quite either) is worth pointing and laughing at equally as much as I should give a thumbs up for otherwise decent content.
Sasori wrote: Powerwise, It's not a weak codex and it's also not S-tier either. This is a good thing, and it seems to be more a long the lines of the previous Knight codexes. There are some very strong Datasheets (Abbadon, Possessed and MoP come to mind) but in general there seems to be nothing super oppressive right now. Though, who knows in a few weeks we could find something super broken.
I have a feeling Creations of Bile could be sleeper overpowered. Being able to fight on death just ends certain armies ability to efficiently trade.
But admittedly you won't have Harlequin speed across the whole army, so it may not be as oppressive.
Getting fast melee stuff isn't hard, though.
Mark/icon bikers in particular are pretty crazy, just for having so much going for them. Raptors lost a lot of options, bikers (AFAIK) kept it all.
Even baseline legionaries get weirdly nasty, because unless every reviewer just failed to mention, Bile's goons have access to all Marks, which you're open to stacking bonuses that can't be taken away and aren't temporary.
Legion trait + mark of khorne + icon means S6, -2 AP chainswords out of the box.
They have some nice strats too (-1 to hit for a phase & advance and charge)
I feel like WE were handed a very short stick in this. Being expected to get the codex and the WD for a copy paste of the psychic awakening stuff (which has been re-released what, 4 times now?)on top of getting objectively the worst legion trait...again....and only a minor one hurts. I guess they're relegated to shelf duty until 10th or whenever their codex drops. Any one care to put down odds their trait remains unchanged in their codex?
Sasori wrote: Powerwise, It's not a weak codex and it's also not S-tier either. This is a good thing, and it seems to be more a long the lines of the previous Knight codexes. There are some very strong Datasheets (Abbadon, Possessed and MoP come to mind) but in general there seems to be nothing super oppressive right now. Though, who knows in a few weeks we could find something super broken.
I have a feeling Creations of Bile could be sleeper overpowered. Being able to fight on death just ends certain armies ability to efficiently trade.
But admittedly you won't have Harlequin speed across the whole army, so it may not be as oppressive.
Getting fast melee stuff isn't hard, though.
Mark/icon bikers in particular are pretty crazy, just for having so much going for them. Raptors lost a lot of options, bikers (AFAIK) kept it all.
Even baseline legionaries get weirdly nasty, because unless every reviewer just failed to mention, Bile's goons have access to all Marks, which you're open to stacking bonuses that can't be taken away and aren't temporary.
Legion trait + mark of khorne + icon means S6, -2 AP chainswords out of the box.
They have some nice strats too (-1 to hit for a phase & advance and charge)
Or you can advance and charge all the time with Corsairs.
Sasori wrote: Powerwise, It's not a weak codex and it's also not S-tier either. This is a good thing, and it seems to be more a long the lines of the previous Knight codexes. There are some very strong Datasheets (Abbadon, Possessed and MoP come to mind) but in general there seems to be nothing super oppressive right now. Though, who knows in a few weeks we could find something super broken.
I have a feeling Creations of Bile could be sleeper overpowered. Being able to fight on death just ends certain armies ability to efficiently trade.
But admittedly you won't have Harlequin speed across the whole army, so it may not be as oppressive.
Getting fast melee stuff isn't hard, though.
Mark/icon bikers in particular are pretty crazy, just for having so much going for them. Raptors lost a lot of options, bikers (AFAIK) kept it all.
Even baseline legionaries get weirdly nasty, because unless every reviewer just failed to mention, Bile's goons have access to all Marks, which you're open to stacking bonuses that can't be taken away and aren't temporary.
Legion trait + mark of khorne + icon means S6, -2 AP chainswords out of the box.
They have some nice strats too (-1 to hit for a phase & advance and charge)
Or you can advance and charge all the time with Corsairs.
Well, yeah... you could. But then you aren't getting +1 S & M and fight even if you're killed first, so...?
I'd rather have faster, stronger and fight no matter what 100% of the time (on faster units that don't often _need_ advance and charge) and pay for it situationally if/when it comes up.
I like advance and charge, and the objective thing is maybe nice, but the Creations trait just seems... better. It interacts and stacks with a lot.
Also I'm confused by how Rubric Marines ans Plague Marines interact with rules in this codex vs their own. Sooooo do they get the Mark benefits when ran in this codex in the elite section but not when ran as troops in their respective Legions? How about the Icon rules?
Sorry if I've already missed the answer to this but had there been word of when the new models will be released please?
Looking to get my talons on some Possessed 😀
ClockworkZion wrote: Moving back to the reviews, I feel like most of them were positive for two reasons: the army got stronger, and the reviewers likely don't play CSM..
The main author of the Goonhammer review is a Chaos main who understands the rules, backstory, and game mechanics intimately. The review was fair, balanced, and nuanced. The outpouring of negativity on this website says more about Dakka's attitude than anything about the new Marine book. Yes, it sucks to lose options (accursed weapons, jump packs) but the book overall looks pretty good.
"If you don't like it that's on you".
Yes the codex is pretty well placed power level wise, and is stronger than the last one, and has some very good content (my personal favourite being that each subfaction essentially has a mini-supplement worth of content). As much as it is correct to praise what is good, criticising things that are bad is not to be shied away from - and just like with the Eldar Autarch fiasco GW has said they will do one thing, then immediately acted completely at odds to their stated position (mainly stating that range rotation will not affect rules, then immediately pressing delete on chaos units in the rotation). This coupled with the usual standards of quality control when it comes to applying common sense to what datasheet options units get (either apply no model no rules or don't, not some inconsistent blend of not quite either) is worth pointing and laughing at equally as much as I should give a thumbs up for otherwise decent content.
More along the lines of "If you don't like it for the reasons people on this thread are perseverating on, you need a sense of perspective". To chaosOxomega's point, I agree that a person new to 40k coming to this book with fresh eyes would probably see the book for what it is, because they haven't internalized the entrenched negativity we're seeing on this thread. And of course, if we whine hard enough, maybe we'll get lord jump packs like the eldar got their autarch options. Maybe i can even convince my ork buddies to lobby for our biker meks and doks back
BrudeUK wrote: Sorry if I've already missed the answer to this but had there been word of when the new models will be released please?
Looking to get my talons on some Possessed 😀
Best guess is delays. Either that or they just plum forgot.
It would be nice if they told us, though. They mention when sea monsters eat the Australian shipments...
BrudeUK wrote: Sorry if I've already missed the answer to this but had there been word of when the new models will be released please?
Looking to get my talons on some Possessed 😀
No word yet, but likely at least 2-more weeks before previews go up, since the new paints are a 2-week pre order cycle.
BrudeUK wrote: Sorry if I've already missed the answer to this but had there been word of when the new models will be released please?
Looking to get my talons on some Possessed 😀
Best guess is delays. Either that or they just plum forgot.
It would be nice if they told us, though. They mention when sea monsters eat the Australian shipments...
Well the very earliest they'll be on a shelf is 23rd July.
ClockworkZion wrote: Moving back to the reviews, I feel like most of them were positive for two reasons: the army got stronger, and the reviewers likely don't play CSM..
The main author of the Goonhammer review is a Chaos main who understands the rules, backstory, and game mechanics intimately. The review was fair, balanced, and nuanced. The outpouring of negativity on this website says more about Dakka's attitude than anything about the new Marine book. Yes, it sucks to lose options (accursed weapons, jump packs) but the book overall looks pretty good.
"If you don't like it that's on you".
Yes the codex is pretty well placed power level wise, and is stronger than the last one, and has some very good content (my personal favourite being that each subfaction essentially has a mini-supplement worth of content). As much as it is correct to praise what is good, criticising things that are bad is not to be shied away from - and just like with the Eldar Autarch fiasco GW has said they will do one thing, then immediately acted completely at odds to their stated position (mainly stating that range rotation will not affect rules, then immediately pressing delete on chaos units in the rotation). This coupled with the usual standards of quality control when it comes to applying common sense to what datasheet options units get (either apply no model no rules or don't, not some inconsistent blend of not quite either) is worth pointing and laughing at equally as much as I should give a thumbs up for otherwise decent content.
More along the lines of "If you don't like it for the reasons people on this thread are perseverating on, you need a sense of perspective". To chaosOxomega's point, I agree that a person new to 40k coming to this book with fresh eyes would probably see the book for what it is, because they haven't internalized the entrenched negativity we're seeing on this thread. And of course, if we whine hard enough, maybe we'll get lord jump packs like the eldar got their autarch options. Maybe i can even convince my ork buddies to lobby for our biker meks and doks back
It would be nice but I would not necessarily hold my breath. The Eldar Autarch situation was egregious in that their very Codex cover was blatantly illegal as written and thus far more noticeable to even very casual players.
I run a discord server for a local warhammer group and one of the players there wanted to use the 30k stuff not only for 30k but also for 40k, but due to my griping they had doubts.
I did have to clarify that my complaints were coming from a place of being an older fan of the faction, being able to do certain things or seeing the faction in a certain light that GW seems intent on ignoring.
Yes, the book is a book. It's made of paper and has been colored with ink and some of that ink resembles words which could be interpreted as rules that are organized in pages. Just like every other 9th edition book, there are many stratagems and many faction rules. There looks to be some semblance of internal balance and external balance, while simultaneously being written with another ruleset in mind and without the current tournament pack in mind, likely because these were written at two different times. There are pros and cons to this.
My issues have and will continue to be NOT JUST with the book, but with how GW has been treating the faction as a whole. The stylistic and scale differences between the various 'waves' of models that we've gotten, going all the way back to Chaos Bikers and the Chaos Vehicle Upgrade Sprue from 3rd edition, to the 6th edition release of dinobots and raptors and chosen, to those being out-scaled by the 8th edition wave of new Chaos Marines, and now to the 9th edition release of Cultists (finally), while writing rules that take away options that we've had for years, or limit you to what is buildable out of an already very limited box, as well as issues of consistency when it comes to what unit can have what across the rules, making it MORE difficult to build the plastic toy hobby part of the army.
In order to get the faction where it needs to be, the following would have to happen to quell my rage: >Update the Chaos Vehicle Upgrade Sprue (this would be minimum effort, since truthfully all of the Rhino-chassis vehicles and the Land Raider need to be updated to match the style of new Chaos models) >Release a new Chaos Lord with options (ideally with jump pack/wings options, but I'm not counting on this) >Release a new Exalted Champion with options >Release Emperor's Children as they have done with DG and TS and will do with WE >Add an extra sprue of weapons to Chaos Terminators and Chosen to allow more flexibility of build >Update the Chaos Terminator Lord/Sorcerer >Update the Chaos Spawn >Update the Defiler >Update Chaos Bikers >Update Huron Blackheart
This is not a small ask, but it would be what would get Chaos Marines fully out of 3rd edition as a model range. A few extra things to satisfy my OCD would be to scale up the Chaos Raptors and Helbrute, as they were made during 6th edition before the scale-creep of Marines.
Notice how very few of these things have to do at all with rules. This is because rules are flexible and mutable. The rules that we need to change IMO are just these: >Give Chaos Legionaries the ability to take 2 identical special weapons in a squad of 10 >Create consistency between Chosen and Terminator weapon options. I don't mind Accursed Weapons, but things like power fists ought to be the same across unit entries >Create more consistency between Aspiring Champions of all kinds and allow people to convert across model kits. I won't necessarily miss Combi-weapons, but melee weapons should have more consistency >Get your head out of your butt when it comes to Night Lords and leadership shenanigans. Give Night Lords literally anything else that doesn't rely on Leadership of the opposing faction
I keep seeing arguments going off the rails, but these to me are the major issues of the faction as a whole. Not just the book. We have massive style discrepancies across the model kits that GW still sells for Chaos Marines and it's going to take a BIG release to get things on track. The longer it takes, the older that those 3rd edition kits look, and then they have the gall to lump them in with price increases when those old molds have clearly paid for themselves a decade ago.
Few other factions have these sorts of issues. Coming to mind would be the Seraphon, Skaven, Soulblight Gravelords, Slaves to Darkness, Astra Militarum, and Eldar. We know StD are about to get a big update, Rumor Engines suggest Seraphon are getting an update soon, Astra Militarum are getting a big update, and Eldar just got a big one and need one more to wrap them up. The difference is that none of those armies struggle with a complete stylistic change between old models and new ones. A Cadian looks like a Cadian. A Striking Scorpion resembles a Howling Banshee in overall Eldar style. However a Chaos Biker is so departed from the newer Chaos Marines that it's painful to look at.
At the end of the day, shoddy rules and limited build options are just salt in the wound.
I'm generally all for calling out negativity, and certainly the normal Dakka trend towards that is evident here. But I think it is worth pointing out that even many of the most critical have also included comments that the Codex includes a lot of good elements that are being overshadowed; that's a subtle difference from normal language but it means a lot.
I also feel harsher criticism on certain changes is more justified because it costs GW little to nothing to avoid them. The real benefit in cutting so many of these options is that it is easier to balance as a result, which just makes it feel even worse for the 40kDevs essentially copping out on one of the game's weakest points rather than trying to do better.
Finally, when people have not just a unit or option but whole swathes of their army invalidated they are justified to be angry over that. I mean I genuinely like mutilators but I'm not upset by their removal; they were a niche unit no one ran as a core component of their army and direct-only finecast to boot. Plus existing mutilator models fit nicely into the new possessed units. People with squads of specific melee loadouts lost some nuance but all of the weapons are valid and viable with a shared profile. Those are VERY different to someone who had the ranged weapon options of the majority (or even all) of their infantry invalidated via new restrictions slapped on only a few years after the kits were released. It would be one thing if the new restrictions came with the new kits, the way it has played out makes it feel like a bait and switch (obviously not a sinister scheme by GW, but it evokes similar feelings).
Of course, part of the 'feels bad' when it comes to option removal is the fact that CSM are inherently a 'dark mirror' faction.
Losing options is going to always feel worse when the other guys get to keep the same things. And get things like Relic Terminators and Contemptors included in their codex. And get datasheets for new old stuff (Kratos) pre-release.
And that this is the culmination of years of waiting for catch-up in terms of rules mechanics. (Whereas, again, the loyalists largely got get-you-by pdfs for the subfactions that didn't get updated instantly). Here we know WE are coming, but the answer is go buy a WD.
Rubbing salt in the wounds is inherently going to grind people's gears. And GW knows very well that this kind of lack of support is often the crux of Chaos complaints. Yes, model budgets aren't unlimited. But the relic datasheets and lack of pdfs for existent kits (HH) or temporary support (WE) is just spiteful.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'm generally all for calling out negativity, and certainly the normal Dakka trend towards that is evident here. But I think it is worth pointing out that even many of the most critical have also included comments that the Codex includes a lot of good elements that are being overshadowed; that's a subtle difference from normal language but it means a lot.
I also feel harsher criticism on certain changes is more justified because it costs GW little to nothing to avoid them. The real benefit in cutting so many of these options is that it is easier to balance as a result, which just makes it feel even worse for the 40kDevs essentially copping out on one of the game's weakest points rather than trying to do better.
Finally, when people have not just a unit or option but whole swathes of their army invalidated they are justified to be angry over that. I mean I genuinely like mutilators but I'm not upset by their removal; they were a niche unit no one ran as a core component of their army and direct-only finecast to boot. Plus existing mutilator models fit nicely into the new possessed units. People with squads of specific melee loadouts lost some nuance but all of the weapons are valid and viable with a shared profile. Those are VERY different to someone who had the ranged weapon options of the majority (or even all) of their infantry invalidated via new restrictions slapped on only a few years after the kits were released. It would be one thing if the new restrictions came with the new kits, the way it has played out makes it feel like a bait and switch (obviously not a sinister scheme by GW, but it evokes similar feelings).
Yeah, I can agree with all of the points here.
It doesn't feel much like a bait and switch to me, since we've seen this happening for a long time now. When Plague Marines and the Blightlord Terminators got... 'plague marine'd', we knew this was the trend that GW was going to follow. Plague Marines that had just come out were suddenly limited to what was in the box, after many hobbyists bought extra kits to fill out their squads with the weapons that they wanted, either for thematic or competitive reasons.
Again, I blame the model designers for A. making a bunch of extra weapons that all HAD to have an individual profile and B. not adding enough of other weapons to fill out more interesting squads. If anything needed the 'accursed weapon' treatment, funny enough, it'd be Plague Marines and Blightlord Terminators, so people can build and play with what they want instead of taking 1 of this and 1 of that.
chaos0xomega wrote: (have to agree with the dude who said "who cares about mutilators anyway" - I certainly don't, never used them myself, never seen someone else use them, honestly forgot that they existed in the first place, etc.
I loved Mutilators, personally. I used the Ushabti from Tomb Kings to fit into my very Tzeentch based army. It was fun if not very effective, but I won't really miss them overall.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can someone clue me in on Night Lords?
Most vehicles are LD8, so would it be correct that Raptors would be +1 to wound on them basically all of the time?
chaos0xomega wrote: (have to agree with the dude who said "who cares about mutilators anyway" - I certainly don't, never used them myself, never seen someone else use them, honestly forgot that they existed in the first place, etc.
I loved Mutilators, personally. I used the Ushabti from Tomb Kings to fit into my very Tzeentch based army. It was fun if not very effective, but I won't really miss them overall.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can someone clue me in on Night Lords?
Most vehicles are LD8, so would it be correct that Raptors would be +1 to wound on them basically all of the time?
Night Lords still have the -2 leadership and -1 Combat Attrition that the rumors suggested, but now the bonus only works on Leadership 5 and below, not 6 as the playtest suggested.
This means that to get their +1 to wound in melee, you have to not only have the Night Lords Trait, but then also another -1 leadership from another source. IIRC, Raptors, Daemon Princes, and Spawn at least have this, but the trouble is that they don't stack with each other, so the best you'll get is -3, and -4 if in range of the Noctilith Crown.
That means that anything with Leadership 9 and above is effectively immune to your +1 to wound unless you get the unit down to half strength, and if you can't get your positioning right, or if your opponent targets down the leadership debuff units, then you're simply not getting that bonus against most factions in the game.
My biggest gripe is as an EC player I lose a blast master from my 10 man unit for no reason. Ever since there have been noise marines people have been allowed 2 per 10 men now, all of a sudden, nope.
Also GW is going to need to Errata/FAQ doom sirens. As written you can take one in addition to all of your other weapons. I'm not sure if they mean to allow this (they haven't in the past) or if they just dropped the line about having to give up a weapon slot.
Then there's the question as to whether I need to pay for a mark on noise marines when they already have one. And whether I have to pay a 15 point tax on all of my units (even those that can't take marks)? Do the units that can't take marks get to use them anyway (since I need to buy marks for them)?
All of these questions for just a minor subsection of a book does not bode well for the book.
Tyel wrote: I do find it surprising that people expect reviews to go "look at all these improved units and these boosted, flavourful legion traits and marks. This seems strong but not broken like Tyranids so most likely won't be cut to pieces in 6 weeks time... oh but since I can't have lightning claws on a Raptor Champion the codex is dead to me 0/10."
No one is expecting that. It's more that none of them are mentioning it at all.
Yea I think LD5 is appropriate. Almost every vehicle in the game is LD8 aside from titanics and Custodes it seems. LD6 would have been quite a lot of units. LRBTs are LD7 ( for now ).
Getting something in melee that can swing away when the LD is debuffed ... maybe it will be too fiddly, but it sounds like an interesting challenge.
Zachectomy wrote: More along the lines of "If you don't like it for the reasons people on this thread are perseverating on, you need a sense of perspective".
My perspective is that of someone who's been playing Chaos since 1996 and is tired of having things taken away from him.
Another thing about the Night Lords, other than their rules generally being sub-par, is that people are sick of GW's Flanderisation of them being the "Scary Legion". Once upon a time they were the scary stealthy hit-and-run Legion. Over time those last two bits vanished, and they were just left with Leadership debuffs. And, as Leadership has always struggled to matter in 40k, it meant that Night Lords have struggled to really shine as a Legion.
And then, the tired 40k Night Lords players see what the Night Lords are getting in HH and wonder if it's a different company altogether who wrote those rules.
Zachectomy wrote: More along the lines of "If you don't like it for the reasons people on this thread are perseverating on, you need a sense of perspective".
My perspective is that of someone who's been playing Chaos since 1996 and is tired of having things taken away from him.
Another thing about the Night Lords, other than their rules generally being sub-par, is that people are sick of GW's Flanderisation of them being the "Scary Legion". Once upon a time they were the scary stealthy hit-and-run Legion. Over time those last two bits vanished, and they were just left with Leadership debuffs. And, as Leadership has always struggled to matter in 40k, it meant that Night Lords have struggled to really shine as a Legion.
And then, the tired 40k Night Lords players see what the Night Lords are getting in HH and wonder if it's a different company altogether who wrote those rules.
I'm fine with them being "scary legion" as long as they try to remember "dirty fighter legion". I think the bonus against infantry squads at half size was a good way to partially show that.
With that said, I think Chaos Marines should be all giving LD debuffs since they're the long term evil enemy, but nobody cares what I think.
Generally speaking I actually like the Night Lord rules. They're not HH strong (and those rules work around the bulky rule which we don't have in 40k), but they're some of the nicest ones we've had in editions and pair well with Raptors.
I remain confused about the Lighting Claws relic because they feel made specifically for the Chaos Lord with Jump Pack, but he doesn't existing anymore apparently which feels like a massive screw up.
Daedalus81 wrote: Yea I think LD5 is appropriate. Almost every vehicle in the game is LD8 aside from titanics and Custodes it seems. LD6 would have been quite a lot of units. LRBTs are LD7 ( for now ).
Getting something in melee that can swing away when the LD is debuffed ... maybe it will be too fiddly, but it sounds like an interesting challenge.
LD 6 would have been fine. LD 5 makes it useless for a very large number of units and entire armies.
Daedalus81 wrote: Yea I think LD5 is appropriate. Almost every vehicle in the game is LD8 aside from titanics and Custodes it seems. LD6 would have been quite a lot of units. LRBTs are LD7 ( for now ).
Getting something in melee that can swing away when the LD is debuffed ... maybe it will be too fiddly, but it sounds like an interesting challenge.
Trying to figure how having a fairly broad spread of units that are easier to wound for them is a bad thing.
Like, can we just accept that Ld modifying and attrition modifying abilities are still absolutely terrible in 40k with very little impact overall? Why do we feel it needs to be harder for a faction or sub-faction to actually be able to trigger its bonus for taking that specific sub-faction? I'm almost baffled by how it's perfectly acceptable for some armies' sub-faction bonuses to be always active or incredibly easy to trigger while others are just expected to jump through hoop after hoop after hoop for a similar effect?
I think my only issue with the CSM book is, as already stated....
It's not good, it's not bad. It just is.. It's literally a book of 'Meh.' It is. The end. And if kind of feels like this great big anticlimatic let down. The 'accursed' weapon issue is just....frustrating. While I understand and appreciate the generic weapons for AoS (as it allows mixing of weapon options, makes a unit just...a unit without people having to pick and choose between what is better, A or B) I feel that sort of thing should be more applied to, well, generic troops units rather than specialist units like Chosen and Terminators who you would expect to maybe be a bit more complicated in their armaments.
The feeling 'meh' thing though. It's a bit of a sting when we've seen constant incremental power creep in books as they're released just to have one plopped down that is very distinctly average.
-2 leadership and -1 CA And +1 to advance and charges
And that would have been pretty fine. The issue I have is trying to tie their leadership shenanigans to an additional bonus, a bonus that you're not going to see very often, if at all, while other armies will get that bonus all the time and don't have to rely on their opponent taking a specific type of army.
I'd much rather have something that goes off more regularly rather than something that only applies some of the time. It's the old 'Death to the False Emperor' rule, which applied only to Imperium units, which they eventually made to apply to everything, and for a while that was decent since it didn't mean I was more powerful against only a specific army.
More along the lines of "If you don't like it for the reasons people on this thread are perseverating on, you need a sense of perspective". To chaosOxomega's point, I agree that a person new to 40k coming to this book with fresh eyes would probably see the book for what it is, because they haven't internalized the entrenched negativity we're seeing on this thread. And of course, if we whine hard enough, maybe we'll get lord jump packs like the eldar got their autarch options. Maybe i can even convince my ork buddies to lobby for our biker meks and doks back
So you agree that the people on the thread have valid points, but they won't be universal so they magically stop being valid? That's a ridiculous argument. This codex is like going from Windows 7 to Windows 8. I suppose people who had never used anything but a Windows tablet had no issue with it, but it was still a bad OS.
More along the lines of "If you don't like it for the reasons people on this thread are perseverating on, you need a sense of perspective". To chaosOxomega's point, I agree that a person new to 40k coming to this book with fresh eyes would probably see the book for what it is, because they haven't internalized the entrenched negativity we're seeing on this thread. And of course, if we whine hard enough, maybe we'll get lord jump packs like the eldar got their autarch options. Maybe i can even convince my ork buddies to lobby for our biker meks and doks back
So you agree that the people on the thread have valid points, but they won't be universal so they magically stop being valid? That's a ridiculous argument. This codex is like going from Windows 7 to Windows 8. I suppose people who had never used anything but a Windows tablet had no issue with it, but it was still a bad OS.
What defines it as bad? I'm not saying it is or isn't, but that's an entirely subjective opinion.
Edit: assuming you were using an analogy to the codex to say it's bad. I agree with some of the complaints, the jump pack characters are annoying, I'm not too upset over chosen or terminators really, I was annoyed at cult units going at first but I've had a few months to get over it and aren't too upset. The arbitrary loadout restriction on Legionaries bothers me, as does the lack of marks on the daemon based units, seems really backwards.
Are daemonkin allowed to have marks or not? If not does that mean that they are not allowed in EC or WE armies since it is required that all units have the mark of their God? What about unit that generally can't take a mark? Are they allowed in those armies or do the armies make exceptions and mark them or just let them in unmarked?
Supposedly (its a little fuzzy) in the god-locked legions, they (and other things that can't be marked) get the <god> keyword (which means some strats can be applied).
Another thing about the Night Lords, other than their rules generally being sub-par, is that people are sick of GW's Flanderisation of them being the "Scary Legion". Once upon a time they were the scary stealthy hit-and-run Legion. Over time those last two bits vanished, and they were just left with Leadership debuffs. And, as Leadership has always struggled to matter in 40k, it meant that Night Lords have struggled to really shine as a Legion.
And then, the tired 40k Night Lords players see what the Night Lords are getting in HH and wonder if it's a different company altogether who wrote those rules.
Yes indeed! I just received my copy of Liber Hereticus yesterday, and now that I'm home from work and can actually read it, I'm absolutely in love with these rules. Bloody Murder, Preysight and A Talent For Murder. Which is obviously what the CSM codex writers were attempting to replicate with our Legion trait. Emphasis on "attempting". Our HH rules are honestly better than the ones that we had in 3.5.
Oh, and the stealthy and hit-and-run bits didn't vanish. Gw just gave them to the Alpha Legion.
Daedalus81 wrote:Yea I think LD5 is appropriate. Almost every vehicle in the game is LD8 aside from titanics and Custodes it seems. LD6 would have been quite a lot of units. LRBTs are LD7 ( for now ).
Getting something in melee that can swing away when the LD is debuffed ... maybe it will be too fiddly, but it sounds like an interesting challenge.
Uhhh.....huh. An "interesting" "challenge". So, how about the "challenge" of getting it to work against a faction made up of L9 vehicles?
Honestly, I think that the second requirement of getting a squad below half strength will make the trait useful against high leadership infantry (though it will lead to slow-rolling sometimes, as you attempt to get the squad below the break point so that your remaining attacks can get the +1 to wound). But there is no recourse against high leadership vehicles. The obvious answer would be to make it take effect on a bracketed vehicle, as that almost always happens at 1/2 of the vehicle's total wounds. But they didn't do that. A Talent For Murder works on vehicles. This should too.
But, other than that, the Night Lords rules are fine. I just wish I could say the same about our units.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: My biggest gripe is as an EC player I lose a blast master from my 10 man unit for no reason. Ever since there have been noise marines people have been allowed 2 per 10 men now, all of a sudden, nope.
Also GW is going to need to Errata/FAQ doom sirens. As written you can take one in addition to all of your other weapons. I'm not sure if they mean to allow this (they haven't in the past) or if they just dropped the line about having to give up a weapon slot.
Then there's the question as to whether I need to pay for a mark on noise marines when they already have one. And whether I have to pay a 15 point tax on all of my units (even those that can't take marks)? Do the units that can't take marks get to use them anyway (since I need to buy marks for them)?
All of these questions for just a minor subsection of a book does not bode well for the book.
BLASTMASTERS:
Being reduced to a single Blastmaster happened in the 6th ed as well, and was corrected by Errata/FAQ. That said I'm not sure they'll change it to allow 2 per squad, as the new versions is already superior to two of the old version going off average rolls. Assuming all shot find there target, we're talking twice as much damage at full range and 3-4 times as much at half range. Which is why the Legends Sonic Helbrute at 130 pts for two Blastmasters and a Doom Siren for 130 pts is nuts. It can fire all that into melee by the way and take a helbrute fist with a Assault D6+2 heavy flamer, but I digress. I don't see NM getting and 2nd Blastmaster, as much as I'd love for them too.
Old:
Heavy D3/S8/AP-2/Dam D3 for 4 damage at 48"
Assault D6/S5/AP-1/Dam 1 for 3 damage at 36"
New:
Heavy 3/S8/AP-3/Dam 3 for 9 damage at 48”, or 12 damage at 24”.
Assault 6/S5/AP-2/Dam 1 for 6 damage at 36”, or 12 damage at 18”.
DOOM SIREN:
I'm not sure what you mean here the Noise Champion starts with a bolter and bolt pistol. The bolter can be swapped for a Sonic Blaster or melee weapon. His bolt pistol can be swapped for a pistol or melee weapon. He can always takes the Doom Siren regardless of his other weapons options. This is exactly how it works now. In fact you can take a Combi-bolter, Sonic Blaster, and Doom Siren in the 8th codex but not in the 9th codex.
MARKS:
Reviews keep missing this. Heck Goonhammer still erenously says today that Noise Marines can't take chainswords.
Note that LUCIUS THE ETERNAL (pg 153) and NOISE MARINES (pg 163) already have the MARK OF SLAANESH keyword in their datasheets.
Their Power Ratings and points costs already take this into account, so not addtional cost is required for these units.
Uhhh.....huh. An "interesting" "challenge". So, how about the "challenge" of getting it to work against a faction made up of L9 vehicles?
Honestly, I think that the second requirement of getting a squad below half strength will make the trait useful against high leadership infantry (though it will lead to slow-rolling sometimes, as you attempt to get the squad below the break point so that your remaining attacks can get the +1 to wound). But there is no recourse against high leadership vehicles. The obvious answer would be to make it take effect on a bracketed vehicle, as that almost always happens at 1/2 of the vehicle's total wounds. But they didn't do that. A Talent For Murder works on vehicles. This should too.
But, other than that, the Night Lords rules are fine. I just wish I could say the same about our units.
I think it'd be pretty rare to come up against a list that block you out like that.
Uhhh.....huh. An "interesting" "challenge". So, how about the "challenge" of getting it to work against a faction made up of L9 vehicles?
Honestly, I think that the second requirement of getting a squad below half strength will make the trait useful against high leadership infantry (though it will lead to slow-rolling sometimes, as you attempt to get the squad below the break point so that your remaining attacks can get the +1 to wound). But there is no recourse against high leadership vehicles. The obvious answer would be to make it take effect on a bracketed vehicle, as that almost always happens at 1/2 of the vehicle's total wounds. But they didn't do that. A Talent For Murder works on vehicles. This should too.
But, other than that, the Night Lords rules are fine. I just wish I could say the same about our units.
I think it'd be pretty rare to come up against a list that block you out like that.
On a separate note....spawn are friggin' awesome!
Knights? Hello? And any Astartes "Heavy" tanks are L9 (anything Land Raider size and up). Then there's Custodes vehicle heavy lists. And of course anything Ultramarines.
There's a reason that the HH writers made A Talent For Murder add +1 to Pen rolls as well as wound rolls. Gw seemed to be taking notes from those guys. But it was only Cliff Notes.
Could've lost them since they aren't real Marines anymore, I dunno. GW makes weird decisions all the time.
True. Cultists are called out along with Agent of Chaos.
I think the only odd interaction is Fabius Bile. Who you might have thought would have "gains a legion trait in CoB detachment, otherwise no" ruling that has generally been the norm (and is explicitly set out for Abaddon) - but in this case it just seems to be "nah, Agent of Chaos, on your bike with Cypher".
Knights? Hello? And any Astartes "Heavy" tanks are L9 (anything Land Raider size and up). Then there's Custodes vehicle heavy lists. And of course anything Ultramarines.
There's a reason that the HH writers made A Talent For Murder add +1 to Pen rolls as well as wound rolls. Gw seemed to be taking notes from those guys. But it was only Cliff Notes.
Yea, but anyone going full big knights is going to have a bad time, I think. Baby knights are crucial.
Could've lost them since they aren't real Marines anymore, I dunno. GW makes weird decisions all the time.
True. Cultists are called out along with Agent of Chaos.
I think the only odd interaction is Fabius Bile. Who you might have thought would have "gains a legion trait in CoB detachment, otherwise no" ruling that has generally been the norm (and is explicitly set out for Abaddon) - but in this case it just seems to be "nah, Agent of Chaos, on your bike with Cypher".
I dunno, kind of makes sense fluffwise. He makes all sorts of new space marine mutants, but doesn't tend to experiment on himself as much.
HBMC wrote:My perspective is that of someone who's been playing Chaos since 1996 and is tired of having things taken away from him.
See this? Worth folk bearing in mind that Chaos have had more Bloody Awful Codecies than decent one.
Rogue Trader - OK I’ve never actually figured out how one created an army in those rules. But at the very very least you had two truly and justifiably Iconic books in Realms of Chaos.
Second Edition - The Great Rationalising of 40K. Where Rogue Trader was “throw everything including then kitchen sink and see what sticks”, 2nd Ed called in a Plumber. This is not rose tinted glasses either. This was when we first found the tech difference between Imperial and Chaos Marines. When we first got named characters. And some really, really nice models (and as ever some not so nice ones)
Third Edition - Best not talk about it. But here’s an example of its Kwalitee wiv a Kapital K.
3.5 Edition - A diverse and flexible Codex. By no means perfect, but still a solid entry. Sadly known for Power Gaming (and to be honest, not unfairly, see it not being perfect). This properly followed up on the 2nd Ed book by providing solid definition and differentiation for the Legions.
And the rest all kind of blur into one for me, but I’m sure someone more knowledgeable can pick up the tainted baton from here.
Uhhh.....huh. An "interesting" "challenge". So, how about the "challenge" of getting it to work against a faction made up of L9 vehicles?
Honestly, I think that the second requirement of getting a squad below half strength will make the trait useful against high leadership infantry (though it will lead to slow-rolling sometimes, as you attempt to get the squad below the break point so that your remaining attacks can get the +1 to wound). But there is no recourse against high leadership vehicles. The obvious answer would be to make it take effect on a bracketed vehicle, as that almost always happens at 1/2 of the vehicle's total wounds. But they didn't do that. A Talent For Murder works on vehicles. This should too.
But, other than that, the Night Lords rules are fine. I just wish I could say the same about our units.
I think it'd be pretty rare to come up against a list that block you out like that.
On a separate note....spawn are friggin' awesome!
Knights? Hello? And any Astartes "Heavy" tanks are L9 (anything Land Raider size and up). Then there's Custodes vehicle heavy lists. And of course anything Ultramarines.
There's a reason that the HH writers made A Talent For Murder add +1 to Pen rolls as well as wound rolls. Gw seemed to be taking notes from those guys. But it was only Cliff Notes.
Problem is the HH rules rely on mechanics missing from 40k such as pinning, and bulky. Now bulky could be solved with a bespoke rule but clearly they wanted to streamline it for 9th over adding additional conditional modifiers.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: See this? Worth folk bearing in mind that Chaos have had more Bloody Awful Codecies than decent one.
The awfulness is the charm.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Rogue Trader - OK I’ve never actually figured out how one created an army in those rules. But at the very very least you had two truly and justifiably Iconic books in Realms of Chaos.
Second Edition - The Great Rationalising of 40K. Where Rogue Trader was “throw everything including then kitchen sink and see what sticks”, 2nd Ed called in a Plumber. This is not rose tinted glasses either. This was when we first found the tech difference between Imperial and Chaos Marines. When we first got named characters. And some really, really nice models (and as ever some not so nice ones)
Third Edition - Best not talk about it. But here’s an example of its Kwalitee wiv a Kapital K.
3.5 Edition - A diverse and flexible Codex. By no means perfect, but still a solid entry. Sadly known for Power Gaming (and to be honest, not unfairly, see it not being perfect). This properly followed up on the 2nd Ed book by providing solid definition and differentiation for the Legions.
And the rest all kind of blur into one for me, but I’m sure someone more knowledgeable can pick up the tainted baton from here.
You left out Slaves to Darkness, which was outstanding. My first World Eaters army came from that book.
The original Obliterator sculpts were actually cool, compared to most other models of the day. Not sure making fun of them demonstrates anything useful.
And I noticed people talking about Ld9 vehicles, but let's not ignore the Ld10 elephant in the room that is the entire Necron army. They are almost immune to the trait thanks to how hard they are to attrition and their base Ld10 across the army.
ClockworkZion wrote: And I noticed people talking about Ld9 vehicles, but let's not ignore the Ld10 elephant in the room that is the entire Necron army. They are almost immune to the trait thanks to how hard they are to attrition and their base Ld10 across the army.
Fair point. Necrons will likely become the king for a bit, too.
ClockworkZion wrote: And I noticed people talking about Ld9 vehicles, but let's not ignore the Ld10 elephant in the room that is the entire Necron army. They are almost immune to the trait thanks to how hard they are to attrition and their base Ld10 across the army.
Fair point. Necrons will likely become the king for a bit, too.
Yeah that mass core is going to make them pretty strong.
Oh well, I didn't pick this Legion with expectations of steamrolling anyone.
So a question for the more knowlegable who might have spotted something I missed: can any characters take dual lighting claws in the book? Trying to figure out who can access the NL claws beyond the DP.
HBMC wrote:My perspective is that of someone who's been playing Chaos since 1996 and is tired of having things taken away from him.
See this? Worth folk bearing in mind that Chaos have had more Bloody Awful Codecies than decent one.
Rogue Trader - OK I’ve never actually figured out how one created an army in those rules. But at the very very least you had two truly and justifiably Iconic books in Realms of Chaos.
At least one personality model to lead the army (and they could all take jump packs! Including World Eater Librarians!). After that, go nuts with whatever you liked. The lists limited the maximums you could take, but there were no minimums or "tax units".
Uhhh.....huh. An "interesting" "challenge". So, how about the "challenge" of getting it to work against a faction made up of L9 vehicles?
Honestly, I think that the second requirement of getting a squad below half strength will make the trait useful against high leadership infantry (though it will lead to slow-rolling sometimes, as you attempt to get the squad below the break point so that your remaining attacks can get the +1 to wound). But there is no recourse against high leadership vehicles. The obvious answer would be to make it take effect on a bracketed vehicle, as that almost always happens at 1/2 of the vehicle's total wounds. But they didn't do that. A Talent For Murder works on vehicles. This should too.
But, other than that, the Night Lords rules are fine. I just wish I could say the same about our units.
I think it'd be pretty rare to come up against a list that block you out like that.
On a separate note....spawn are friggin' awesome!
Knights? Hello? And any Astartes "Heavy" tanks are L9 (anything Land Raider size and up). Then there's Custodes vehicle heavy lists. And of course anything Ultramarines.
There's a reason that the HH writers made A Talent For Murder add +1 to Pen rolls as well as wound rolls. Gw seemed to be taking notes from those guys. But it was only Cliff Notes.
Problem is the HH rules rely on mechanics missing from 40k such as pinning, and bulky. Now bulky could be solved with a bespoke rule but clearly they wanted to streamline it for 9th over adding additional conditional modifiers.
No, they just changed the "conditional modifiers". Instead of requiring that the target unit be: pinned, outnumbered, or falling back they changed it to: Leadership of 5 or less or below half strength. No reason they couldn't throw "bracketed" in there for vehicles/MCs as well.
ClockworkZion wrote: And I noticed people talking about Ld9 vehicles, but let's not ignore the Ld10 elephant in the room that is the entire Necron army. They are almost immune to the trait thanks to how hard they are to attrition and their base Ld10 across the army.
Fair point. Necrons will likely become the king for a bit, too.
Yeah that mass core is going to make them pretty strong.
Oh well, I didn't pick this Legion with expectations of steamrolling anyone.
So a question for the more knowlegable who might have spotted something I missed: can any characters take dual lighting claws in the book? Trying to figure out who can access the NL claws beyond the DP.
Terminator Lords. That appears to be it for characters. It can also be given to Aspiring Champions with Accursed Weapons as well. So, Terminator and Chosen Aspiring Champions.
As to your point about Necrons: as I said earlier, against factions like that we'll have to rely on the half strength condition. Throw some firepower into them to thin their numbers before charging them. If that isn't quite enough, slow roll your attacks until they drop below half strength and the trait kicks in.
Not to be rude but I feel like all this trips down memory lane to for rulesets of the past would be better in the 40k General forum instead of the news and rumors one.
As to your point about Necrons: as I said earlier, against factions like that we'll have to rely on the half strength condition. Throw some firepower into them to thin their numbers before charging them. If that isn't quite enough, slow roll your attacks until they drop below half strength and the trait kicks in.
Does a slow roll approach even work anymore?
9th always seems like a very 'kill as much as you can, as soon as you can' as long as you can still grab objectives.
Keeps down what the enemy can do to you. Waiting for the trait to trigger doesn't seem effective.
As to your point about Necrons: as I said earlier, against factions like that we'll have to rely on the half strength condition. Throw some firepower into them to thin their numbers before charging them. If that isn't quite enough, slow roll your attacks until they drop below half strength and the trait kicks in.
Does a slow roll approach even work anymore?
9th always seems like a very 'kill as much as you can, as soon as you can' as long as you can still grab objectives.
Keeps down what the enemy can do to you. Waiting for the trait to trigger doesn't seem effective.
It absolutely works, but there are conditions to be aware of that affect your decisions.
If the mission is Domination then it will be harder to stay cagey, but with Stranglehold gone there is less impetus to get out and trade to keep that rolling over. If you can pick up 8/12 on primary and have an angle to the alternate primary scoring then you can wait quite a while.
ClockworkZion wrote: And I noticed people talking about Ld9 vehicles, but let's not ignore the Ld10 elephant in the room that is the entire Necron army. They are almost immune to the trait thanks to how hard they are to attrition and their base Ld10 across the army.
To be fair, if there's one army terror tactics shouldn't work on it would be the soulless robots.
ClockworkZion wrote: And I noticed people talking about Ld9 vehicles, but let's not ignore the Ld10 elephant in the room that is the entire Necron army. They are almost immune to the trait thanks to how hard they are to attrition and their base Ld10 across the army.
To be fair, if there's one army terror tactics shouldn't work on it would be the soulless robots.
And its not like CSM didn't get a update that nullifies two necron sub faction abilities.
40k is like that. Feast or famine on your match ups.
And you'd be totally fine with one of your fav factions being gutted? Again?
I don't see how CSM are getting gutted, power-wise they look just fine at first glance and the book offers quite a few viable options to play that I'm looking forward to. The only thing I'm absolutely baffled by are some of the equipment options getting removed (no JP Lord/ Sorc, no LC on Raptor champs, no marks on Possessed etc.) but that doesn't mean the faction a whole is gutted.
Pandabeer wrote: I don't see how CSM are getting gutted, power-wise they look just fine at first glance and the book offers quite a few viable options to play that I'm looking forward to. The only thing I'm absolutely baffled by are some of the equipment options getting removed (no JP Lord/ Sorc, no LC on Raptor champs, no marks on Possessed etc.) but that doesn't mean the faction a whole is gutted.
And, as we keep repeating, this has never been about power.
As for gutted?
Our Cult Troops are gone. They've removed a few other units completely. Many units can't take basic upgrades anymore. One unit (Exalted Champ) lost all its options. Our Daemon Prince entry has an expiry date on it, like they didn't know that the new model was coming at all*. And the one unit we were sure we were getting (Traitor Guard) isn't even there.
Like I said, I'm tired of being a Chaos player who just has stuff taken from him with every new book. My Marines never seem to have to worry about that. My 'Nids didn't either, and they've had one model since, what, 2014? My Eldar only gained stuff. Chaos though, just keep losing.
*And they probably didn't, because GW is so silo'd as to be detrimental to their development.
ClockworkZion wrote: And I noticed people talking about Ld9 vehicles, but let's not ignore the Ld10 elephant in the room that is the entire Necron army. They are almost immune to the trait thanks to how hard they are to attrition and their base Ld10 across the army.
To be fair, if there's one army terror tactics shouldn't work on it would be the soulless robots.
I'm not really complaining, just noting that it's an uphill battle. On the plus side at least you can force them to fail leadership tests more often and attrition a little faster.
Pandabeer wrote: I don't see how CSM are getting gutted, power-wise they look just fine at first glance and the book offers quite a few viable options to play that I'm looking forward to. The only thing I'm absolutely baffled by are some of the equipment options getting removed (no JP Lord/ Sorc, no LC on Raptor champs, no marks on Possessed etc.) but that doesn't mean the faction a whole is gutted.
And, as we keep repeating, this has never been about power.
As for gutted?
Our Cult Troops are gone. They've removed a few other units completely. Many units can't take basic upgrades anymore. One unit (Exalted Champ) lost all its options. Our Daemon Prince entry has an expiry date on it, like they didn't know that the new model was coming at all*. And the one unit we were sure we were getting (Traitor Guard) isn't even there.
Like I said, I'm tired of being a Chaos player who just has stuff taken from him with every new book. My Marines never seem to have to worry about that. My 'Nids didn't either, and they've had one model since, what, 2014? My Eldar only gained stuff. Chaos though, just keep losing.
*And they probably didn't, because GW is so silo'd as to be detrimental to their development.
I mean we did gain *some* stuff so it's more like being forced into a bad trade every edition, but yes, I'm with you on not wanting to have stuff be taken away everytime there's an update.
Pandabeer wrote: I don't see how CSM are getting gutted, power-wise they look just fine at first glance and the book offers quite a few viable options to play that I'm looking forward to. The only thing I'm absolutely baffled by are some of the equipment options getting removed (no JP Lord/ Sorc, no LC on Raptor champs, no marks on Possessed etc.) but that doesn't mean the faction a whole is gutted.
Marked units (Plague Marines, Rubrics, Zerkers) are gone with only Noise Marines still in because EC haven't got their own Codex yet and the loss of options on core units (core as in the part of something that is central to its existence or character, not the keyword Core) hit pretty big for anyone who hasn't literally just picked up the army in 9th.
ClockworkZion wrote: I mean we did gain *some* stuff so it's more like being forced into a bad trade every edition, but yes, I'm with you on not wanting to have stuff be taken away everytime there's an update.
Woohoo, some new Cultist units and new sculpts for Possessed. Too bad you can't run a majority Cultist army despite there now being enough variation to make it not intensely boring to do so and Possessed can't be marked despite being closer to their Gods than every other unit besides Daemon Princes.
ClockworkZion wrote: I mean we did gain *some* stuff so it's more like being forced into a bad trade every edition, but yes, I'm with you on not wanting to have stuff be taken away everytime there's an update.
Woohoo, some new Cultist units and new sculpts for Possessed. Too bad you can't run a majority Cultist army despite there now being enough variation to make it not intensely boring to do so and Possessed can't be marked despite being closer to their Gods than every other unit besides Daemon Princes.
Just seems odd that they'd go out of their way to add a Cultist HQ and then not let you take Cultist armies.
I mean, Sisters of Silence got a provision in the Custodes book to run SoS-themed armies. Why couldn't Chaos get the same? Why couldn't they get a "Travelling Players" box ala Eldar, but to give us our Daemons back?
But we got some crazy mutants, so I guess it's ok...
H.B.M.C. wrote: Just seems odd that they'd go out of their way to add a Cultist HQ and then not let you take Cultist armies.
I mean, Sisters of Silence got a provision in the Custodes book to run SoS-themed armies. Why couldn't Chaos get the same? Why couldn't they get a "Travelling Players" box ala Eldar, but to give us our Daemons back?
But we got some crazy mutants, so I guess it's ok...
Probably assuming we'd just spam cultists and Daemon Engines.
I feel like Cultists are *almost* there to feeling like a proper army option, they just need some of their own options for heavy and fast attack. Maybe in 10th they'll get to be their own army.
ClockworkZion wrote: I feel like Cultists are *almost* there to feeling like a proper army option, they just need some of their own options for heavy and fast attack. Maybe in 10th they'll get to be their own army.
Like, say, a squad of Traitor Guardsmen to make up their "elite" troops?
So I haven't seen anyone talk about the wargear lists, so I dove into the GMG video review because I was still curious to see what options we could work with:
And my best screenshot at max resolution is a mess so let me do my best to translate that to something less pixellated:
Heavy Weapons Havoc autocannon
Heavy bolter
Lascannon
Missile Launcher
Reaper chaincannon
Melee Weapons Astartes chainsword
Power axe
Power fist
Power maul
Power sword
Tainted chainaxe (+1 S, AP-1, 2D for 5pts)
Special Weapons Flamer
Meltagun
Plasma gun
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would have been happy if they at least put an accursed weapon on that melee list for the Chaos Lord to have access to so we can represent random melee wargear choices. Oh well, guess my Chainglaives will be Tainted chainaxes instead.
Wonder why they still have Power Axe, Maul and/or, Sword? The only units that are usuallly found with them are Termies and then they just become accursed weapons. Also just noticed no power fist or chain fist. What's going through GW's head?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Wonder why they still have Power Axe, Maul and/or, Sword? The only units that are usuallly found with them are Termies and then they just become accursed weapons. Also just noticed no power fist or chain fist. What's going through GW's head?
Power fist is right there on the list below Power axe. Chainfists seem to be limited to kits that contain the actual bit (so Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour and Terminators).
They're in the Terminator Squad, but restricted by sprue, so only 3 Fists and 1 Chainfist per 5.
And it seems a Chaos Lord can't take Lightning Claws at all. Cool.
Even dumber is that he is, by default, equipped with a Plasma Pistol and a Thunder Hammer (because of the model - x2), meaning that his default cost is 115 and taking a bolt pistol actually makes him cheaper. This is so backwards it's not funny.
H.B.M.C. wrote: They're in the Terminator Squad, but restricted by sprue, so only 3 Fists and 1 Chainfist per 5.
And it seems a Chaos Lord can't take Lightning Claws at all. Cool.
Even dumber is that he is, by default, equipped with a Plasma Pistol and a Thunder Hammer (because of the model - x2), meaning that his default cost is 115 and taking a bolt pistol actually makes him cheaper. This is so backwards it's not funny.
Yeah, like I said I'd live if he could at least take an Accursed Weapon since you can still swap that for the NL claw relic but honestly it does feel like anyone who has a fondness for lighting claws is going to be out in the cold unless GW lets us have them back via FAQ.
H.B.M.C. wrote: They're in the Terminator Squad, but restricted by sprue, so only 3 Fists and 1 Chainfist per 5.
And it seems a Chaos Lord can't take Lightning Claws at all. Cool.
Even dumber is that he is, by default, equipped with a Plasma Pistol and a Thunder Hammer (because of the model - x2), meaning that his default cost is 115 and taking a bolt pistol actually makes him cheaper. This is so backwards it's not funny.
Yeah, like I said I'd live if he could at least take an Accursed Weapon since you can still swap that for the NL claw relic but honestly it does feel like anyone who has a fondness for lighting claws is going to be out in the cold unless GW lets us have them back via FAQ.
Terminator Chaos Lord should still have option for Lightning Claws, and tbh that might be the better way to take a Chaos Lord. Better armor, can deep strike, can have a broader variety of weapons and therefore relics. Have him drop in with obliterators and/or terminators the same way that chaos players have been doing for the better part of 20 years. Which is almost the age of that Chaos Terminator Lord.
H.B.M.C. wrote: They're in the Terminator Squad, but restricted by sprue, so only 3 Fists and 1 Chainfist per 5.
And it seems a Chaos Lord can't take Lightning Claws at all. Cool.
Even dumber is that he is, by default, equipped with a Plasma Pistol and a Thunder Hammer (because of the model - x2), meaning that his default cost is 115 and taking a bolt pistol actually makes him cheaper. This is so backwards it's not funny.
Yeah, like I said I'd live if he could at least take an Accursed Weapon since you can still swap that for the NL claw relic but honestly it does feel like anyone who has a fondness for lighting claws is going to be out in the cold unless GW lets us have them back via FAQ.
Terminator Chaos Lord should still have option for Lightning Claws, and tbh that might be the better way to take a Chaos Lord. Better armor, can deep strike, can have a broader variety of weapons and therefore relics. Have him drop in with obliterators and/or terminators the same way that chaos players have been doing for the better part of 20 years. Which is almost the age of that Chaos Terminator Lord.
He's from 2007, so only a "mere" 15 years old at the moment.
And you're right, the Terminator Lord is likely a better option (unless we get jump packs back). Might pick up a second NL Terminator Praetor when the Tartos Terminators drop and nick some extra bits from them since the arms are separate pieces on that Praetor. His Chainglaive would make for a nice conversion bit on other models for example.
I'm actually rather let down by a fair bit of the wargear options we got. Not even looking at the loyalist side, but just comparing the options to the MkVI Sprues has me a little disappointed that we're seeing so little to work with. I'm not even going to pretend to hold my breath that we'll see any FW options from the legions made available to the 40k line even if it would be a simple hand swap to take some of these weapons.
I definitely have to say that rules wise the book has a major glow up in a lot of ways, but it's like watching a horse try to run with a broken leg with how the wargear really doesn't go all the way.
H.B.M.C. wrote: They're in the Terminator Squad, but restricted by sprue, so only 3 Fists and 1 Chainfist per 5.
And it seems a Chaos Lord can't take Lightning Claws at all. Cool.
Even dumber is that he is, by default, equipped with a Plasma Pistol and a Thunder Hammer (because of the model - x2), meaning that his default cost is 115 and taking a bolt pistol actually makes him cheaper. This is so backwards it's not funny.
Uhm default wargear not being cheapest isn't chaos lord thing. Not been following 40k much it seems.
For how long though? At this point I would be really reluctant to invest in anything made from old kits because I don't know if they'll be invalidated in two years.
For how long though? At this point I would be really reluctant to invest in anything made from old kits because I don't know if they'll be invalidated in two years.
This is by far one of my biggest problems with Games Workshop, because in all honesty I can't really think of this problem with other companies and games - at least in my experience.
When I buy Waffen-SS for Bolt Action - they are always going to usable. They are historical mins, they are Waffen-SS everywhere - their equipment is universal between games. Sometimes things differ, i.e., unit organisation in Battlegroup is different so I have to reorg squads a bit but I'm not thinking "this unit will, in 5 years time, no longer be legal".
You can say "Well, that's historical games" (another point for historical games) but hell look at Mantic/Kings of War. Units get 'invalidated' but then replaced by other entires which accommodate the previous models. But with GW you now know that no, in a few years time figures may just vanish, and no longer have a place in the army (without extensive proxying, and proxying only takes you so far).
So why invest in an EC army now, for example - in two years time or so, they're gonna get a release (probably like TS, DG, and WE) where a majority of the older EC figures just aren't valid.
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
( This should probably be in my signature)
Well, considering BoltAction has basically no weapon options (reliably!) this would make the Chosen - accursed weapons - smart Design, jes? Weapon options you do not have can not be obsolete...
No? I can certainly understand the "no model no rules" concept. And quite frankly this is what happened to the jumppack lord and powerclaws ( although i am truly sad my finecast jumplord with claws is now oop/Legends).
Some things Just have to move along.
I would rather have they did not add more stuff someplace else...
Just looking at all the Options in the Legionaries Datasheet gives me cancer.
Bolt Action has weapons options, and if they would release an updated army book that would replace the options for veterans with generic rifles for everyone, people would not complain, they would just stop playing BA and move over to another game that let them play the models as they are
so it is a little bit tricky to compare, as if people with historical armies are pissed off because of bad rules, they just move on to a different game
(like a lot of people changed from Flames of War to Battlegroup with the last FoW Edition)
), but those missing jump packs might be a deal breaker for me. Here's hoping for our Autarch moment.
-- models I saw were the ones from Blackstone Fortress. I'm guessing that means the new box doesn't come with Autoguns or special weapons.
Personally I'll focus on trying to kitbash my venomcrawlers with disco balls and not playing for a while.
