Daedalus81 wrote: Don't get me wrong - he's awesome, but I don't think he's the game breaker people make him out to be.
Two men stood in the jungle, and suddenly realised that a tiger was approaching them, hunger in its eyes. One of the men started putting on a pair of very advanced sneakers.
"Umm... you're not going to outrun the tiger with those!" said the first man.
"I know that. I just need to outrun you!" said the other.
To put it another way, Dooby needn't be a "game breaker". He just has to be good enough that taking any other option in the book (outside of what you have to take due to compulsory choices) isn't worthwhile. That's the danger with a character like him. That's what makes character ubiquitous, where people bring them to every game regardless.
Hell, in our games from 9th from two weeks ago, the guy playing Custodes, who has never played Custodes with us, and doesn't even own Trajann, still brought him using Counts As. That kind of ubiquity isn't good for the game, IMO.
Fair point though I think you have to build around him a bit to make it worth it.
Like that land raider data sheet. It might actually be good. Also CSM getting a better land raider that imperial marines? Never thought I would see the day (remember when space marines one could carry 12 but CSM only 10 in 5th anyone?).
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences
Sure. But there isn't any reason it would. There are reasons GW (and lots of other companies) don't have their own forums, and one of those is not having an officially sanctioned home for criticism.
Customer-on-the-street won't know much beyond '9th edition codex'
Its actually for marketing reasons, decentralization is better for e-word of mouth, much higher likelihood of someone wandering across the brand/setting/lore/minis etc. incidentally while searching for something else if the community is more widely spread out vs if its very heavily centralized into specific niche forum that only existing customers are going to access/visit.
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xeen wrote: Like that land raider data sheet. It might actually be good. Also CSM getting a better land raider that imperial marines? Never thought I would see the day (remember when space marines one could carry 12 but CSM only 10 in 5th anyone?).
Please, they are going to FAQ that/release Codex SM 2.0 quick enough that they will be the same stats.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences
Some of this criticism is based on incomplete information, but okay.
"Bro look we haven't seen the full picture look come on everything looks like crap so far but it could be okay come on dudes."
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences
Some of this criticism is based on incomplete information, but okay.
"Bro look we haven't seen the full picture look come on everything looks like crap so far but it could be okay come on dudes."
"Nothing is fethed here, Dude. Come on, you're being very un-Dude. They'll FAQ it."
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences
I think the problem is that a lot of the complaints are geared from people who have existing CSM armies - in some cases 20 year old CSM armies.
Whereas for someone thinking of starting today... much of this doesn't matter. Oh I can't have options X and Y on a Chaos Lord? Well, the Chaos Lord Model I can buy has a hammer and plasma pistol so... its fine? Raptor Sergeants can't have Lightning Claws? Well, I just won't build them that way. Possessed can't benefit from marks and icons? Well that's a bit lame - but if they don't, they just don't.
I mean I'm looking at the leaks and thinking there's a serviceable level of power. Its not Tyranids runaway broken (although certain information remain missing) - but its not in turn going to get the sweeping nerfs we expect Tyranids (and most of the newer books) to now get.
I don't get the comparison with Orks - because with that codex you could see about a third (or more) of the entries were dead on arrival.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences
Some of this criticism is based on incomplete information, but okay.
"Bro look we haven't seen the full picture look come on everything looks like crap so far but it could be okay come on dudes."
Okay, show me the full rules for Daemonkin and the full Possessed Datasheet.
I get being concerned that they may not get marks, but assuming they won't then getting mad at the assumption before you know for sure just seems, well, silly.
After five years of a mediocre codex going downhill, and 3 years of being totally obsolete and ignored, I can't wait to stop holding my breath and adjust to the new reality that once again chaos have a gak codex years late and a fortune short of expectations
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: "Nothing is fethed here, Dude. Come on, you're being very un-Dude. They'll FAQ it."
I would very much like to see FAQs on a few things, but I'm not holding my breath. I just have a firm stance that I prefer to know the full context before I'm mad about something.
For example now that I know for sure that the Raptor Champion can't even access the melee weapon's list I'm rather frustrated at that choice when Loyalists get to have upgrade packs and wider access to melee weapons on their unit leaders.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences
I think the problem is that a lot of the complaints are geared from people who have existing CSM armies - in some cases 20 year old CSM armies.
Whereas for someone thinking of starting today... much of this doesn't matter. Oh I can't have options X and Y on a Chaos Lord? Well, the Chaos Lord Model I can buy has a hammer and plasma pistol so... its fine? Raptor Sergeants can't have Lightning Claws? Well, I just won't build them that way. Possessed can't benefit from marks and icons? Well that's a bit lame - but if they don't, they just don't.
I mean I'm looking at the leaks and thinking there's a serviceable level of power. Its not Tyranids runaway broken (although certain information remain missing) - but its not in turn going to get the sweeping nerfs we expect Tyranids (and most of the newer books) to now get.
I don't get the comparison with Orks - because with that codex you could see about a third (or more) of the entries were dead on arrival.
I have an old no-longer legal Death Guard army I could rework into a Nurgle Warband (and even then it'd need work because double special weapons with 7 model squads), but since I'm starting a new army with this release it does feel like I don't have years of momentum causing me to be as frustrated as others are with this one.
I look forward to Loyalist Land Raiders being T10.
Yeah, well. I'm taking it as soft confirmation of Loyalist 2.0 codex within ~6 months. Pad to 9 for continued disaster distribution.
With HH datasheets.
They kind of need to FAQ in TS and DG, too though.
Given the track record that could happen right away or years from now.
Jeez I don't know how I feel about D6+2 LC....I guess we're going to find out...
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences
Some of this criticism is based on incomplete information, but okay.
"Bro look we haven't seen the full picture look come on everything looks like crap so far but it could be okay come on dudes."
Okay, show me the full rules for Daemonkin and the full Possessed Datasheet.
I get being concerned that they may not get marks, but assuming they won't then getting mad at the assumption before you know for sure just seems, well, silly.
The fact that they stealth edited the warcom article to eliminate the reference to Possessed is what we in the industry call a "clue". But I guess we just have to wAiT aNd SeE!
Quasistellar wrote: T9 Land Raider. . . and the lascannons (they have another name in front of lascannon that I can't read because potato cam) are d6+2 damage.
I'm wondering if those lascannons are specific or something we'll see on more lascannons. . .
Twin Soulshatter Lascannons.
I don't recall, is that style of lascannon unique to chaos land raiders or is there any other vehicle with them. It may be their excuse not to upgrade basic lascannons to a similar profile--which is needed. They should ditch all these ridiculous extra names for chaos weapons that are identical to imperial versions.
Quasistellar wrote: T9 Land Raider. . . and the lascannons (they have another name in front of lascannon that I can't read because potato cam) are d6+2 damage.
I'm wondering if those lascannons are specific or something we'll see on more lascannons. . .
Good point. I sort of hope the rest of the LC are "regular".
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From reddit:
- Venomcrawler gives a +1 to Psychic Test within 9" ;
- Warptalons are equiped with Warp Claws which are Lightning Claws and they also have a special rule to prevent disengagement (you need to roll against your opponent
I take it you didn't notice that Warptalons don't use Lightning claws? GW named them something (silly) else. Just so we can't complain about Lightning Claws or the lack thereof.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences
Some of this criticism is based on incomplete information, but okay.
"Bro look we haven't seen the full picture look come on everything looks like crap so far but it could be okay come on dudes."
Okay, show me the full rules for Daemonkin and the full Possessed Datasheet.
I get being concerned that they may not get marks, but assuming they won't then getting mad at the assumption before you know for sure just seems, well, silly.
The fact that they stealth edited the warcom article to eliminate the reference to Possessed is what we in the industry call a "clue". But I guess we just have to wAiT aNd SeE!
Chill a little bit. Like I said, I am not against being concerned, but let's not act like it's solid fact until we have evidence. What we have now is conjecture that people are treating like fact and then being mad at.
And the Possessed edit could have been related to the Unaligned keyword since it was presented at the same time.
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Leo_the_Rat wrote: I take it you didn't notice that Warptalons don't use Lightning claws? GW named them something (silly) else. Just so we can't complain about Lightning Claws or the lack thereof.
Oh I noticed and I'm not exactly thrilled. Lighting Claws are one of two weapons Night Lords are known for (the other being the Chainglaive) and see it so unavailable (outside of using it as an "Accursed Weapon" which does have nice stats, lacks the signature re-roll) isn't exactly making me thrilled.
Quasistellar wrote: T9 Land Raider. . . and the lascannons (they have another name in front of lascannon that I can't read because potato cam) are d6+2 damage.
I'm wondering if those lascannons are specific or something we'll see on more lascannons. . .
"Twin Soulshatter(?) Lascannons". Probably why they have +2 dmg. Pity, was kinda hoping for buffs for regular Lascannons as well, Damage D6 is just garbage on dedicated AT-guns.
Happy with the buffs to Landraiders and Vindicators . They all sorely need it, heretic and loyalist alike.
Poor Predator will probably get left out in the dirt...
Daedalus81 wrote: They're still lightning claws. GW just didn't want to explicitly treat them as such for some reason.
Feels like the intent is to silo almost all unit wargear so bonus stacking for specific things is harder to accomplish.
The claws don't give them the extra attack because that's already been rolled into the unit profile. They still get the re-roll wounds, but GW can't call them 'Lightning Claws' anymore because of them not giving you the extra attacks.
Removing lightning claws altogether for everyone else is still utterly bewildering, though.
Daedalus81 wrote: They're still lightning claws. GW just didn't want to explicitly treat them as such for some reason.
Current design paradigm- they want to bake as much into the unit profile as they can (and provide no options).
But, no, game-wise they aren't lightning claws. They wouldn't be affected by anything that affects lightning claws (or power weapons, or whatever). I'm not sure if its intentional or not but this design 'silos' weapons and units away from each other and makes future modifications more difficult (or at least, longer lists).
Daedalus81 wrote: They're still lightning claws. GW just didn't want to explicitly treat them as such for some reason.
Current design paradigm- they want to bake as much into the unit profile as they can (and provide no options).
But, no, game-wise they aren't lightning claws. They wouldn't be affected by anything that affects lightning claws (or power weapons, or whatever). I'm not sure if its intentional or not but this design 'silos' weapons and units away from each other and makes future modifications more difficult (or at least, longer lists).
There probably isn't much that would be targeted to LC I would think. It feels like the Tyranid thing where the bigger numbers on the datasheet makes them look "cooler".
Quasistellar wrote: T9 Land Raider. . . and the lascannons (they have another name in front of lascannon that I can't read because potato cam) are d6+2 damage.
I'm wondering if those lascannons are specific or something we'll see on more lascannons. . .
"Twin Soulshatter(?) Lascannons". Probably why they have +2 dmg. Pity, was kinda hoping for buffs for regular Lascannons as well, Damage D6 is just garbage on dedicated AT-guns.
Happy with the buffs to Landraiders and Vindicators . They all sorely need it, heretic and loyalist alike.
Poor Predator will probably get left out in the dirt...
Soulshatter Lascaanon sounds like the Chaos name for Godhammer Lascannon which is what the loyalists call them, and what they'll be called in the imminent FAQ updating the loyalists rules. Only question is whether they'll remember/bother to update Death Guard and Thousand Sons at the same time or whether they have to wait 2 years for their next codex update.
Nice, Land Raider t9, Vindicator with shield is 2+ save, the weapons got neat buffs.
Now if only they had kits that weren't the same 3rd edition vehicles with 2nd edition upgrade sprues.
The situation with Raptors and Warptalons is just sad. At least Raptors can still take 2 special weapons in a squad of 5. That helps ease the burn a little bit.
Rules are over and over bloated like a rotten cadaver but Army List options are limited like a joke... Killteam 2nd Edition is an unreasonable demand and a crime on army build.
I fear 10th Edition will be a devolution to very very basic core rules and very limited options.
I remember thinking 5th Edition was the worst edition...
For example now that I know for sure that the Raptor Champion can't even access the melee weapon's list I'm rather frustrated at that choice when Loyalists get to have upgrade packs and wider access to melee weapons on their unit leaders.
Should have bought a protagonist faction, sucker /s
ClockworkZion wrote: For example now that I know for sure that the Raptor Champion can't even access the melee weapon's list I'm rather frustrated at that choice when Loyalists get to have upgrade packs and wider access to melee weapons on their unit leaders.
By "loyalists" you mean primaris who literally can't pick up a single melee weapon option outside of Intercessor sergeants? These ones? "Upgrade packs" like the recent Infiltrator one that STILL didn't fix idiotic lack of any melee punch whatsoever? These packs?
Because I'll need to play world's tiniest violin here as the most "limited" CSM unit still has vastly more melee options than literally entire primaris chapter
Daedalus81 wrote: They're still lightning claws. GW just didn't want to explicitly treat them as such for some reason.
They are mutated and half-demon limbs, much like the feet, arms, and heads of Warp Talons. They just don't fit on Raptor bodies as these are supposed to be still regular CSM. But it's funny to watch the 'muh lore' crowd who insisted Night Lords are totes not chaos instantly dump any pretense said lore matters and start loudly whining they can't WAAAC with bits that pee all over said lore
ClockworkZion wrote: For example now that I know for sure that the Raptor Champion can't even access the melee weapon's list I'm rather frustrated at that choice when Loyalists get to have upgrade packs and wider access to melee weapons on their unit leaders.
By "loyalists" you mean primaris who literally can't pick up a single melee weapon option outside of Intercessor sergeants? These ones? "Upgrade packs" like the recent Infiltrator one that STILL didn't fix idiotic lack of any melee punch whatsoever? These packs?
Because I'll need to play world's tiniest violin here as the most "limited" CSM unit still has vastly more melee options than literally entire primaris chapter
Daedalus81 wrote: They're still lightning claws. GW just didn't want to explicitly treat them as such for some reason.
They are mutated and half-demon limbs, much like the feet, arms, and heads of Warp Talons. They just don't fit on Raptor bodies as these are supposed to be still regular CSM. But it's funny to watch the 'muh lore' crowd who insisted Night Lords are totes not chaos instantly dump any pretense said lore matters and start loudly whining they can't WAAAC with bits that pee all over said lore
Night Lords getting Lightning Claws is WAAC?
And yes, if you restrict yourself to just Primaris, you don’t have tons of options for melee. Your options aren’t bad (BGV are pretty damn good) but they’re not the best at melee. I’d have more sympathy if I hadn’t been told my entire army doesn’t count because I play one subfaction.
You forget that in Irbis's mind Chaos should be worse-equipped than Orks because they can't innovate, daemons are random, the Dark Mechanicum doesn't exist, every Chaos world is a blasted barren hellscape and all weapons break down as soon as they are touched by the warp.
Honestly we should be happy we even get power armour and bolters! True Chaos Space Marines go to battle naked with blunt sticks, because making them pointy requires too much innovation for dumb-dumb Chaos Space Marines and their rigid doctrines.
And starting almost every post he makes with some variation of "Your wrong!" as he gleefully nitpicks some minor and largely irrelevant detail of your post.
They are mutated and half-demon limbs, much like the feet, arms, and heads of Warp Talons. They just don't fit on Raptor bodies as these are supposed to be still regular CSM. But it's funny to watch the 'muh lore' crowd who insisted Night Lords are totes not chaos instantly dump any pretense said lore matters and start loudly whining they can't WAAAC with bits that pee all over said lore
1. Only one pair of the claws in the Warp Talon/Raptor kit is mutated. The rest are completely normal and fit perfectly fine with the aesthetics of non-mutated Astartes.
2. Even if they are mutated, what does it matter? Night Lords as a whole might not worship Chaos, but that doesn't mean that ten millennia in the Eye doesn't result in some mutations. And some Night Lords plainly do worship Chaos.
3. Who is this "muh lore" person? Or if it's not a person but a group of people, why are you treating them like a monolithic being? Is it not possible that the people you refer to are different people with differing opinions?
They are mutated and half-demon limbs, much like the feet, arms, and heads of Warp Talons. They just don't fit on Raptor bodies as these are supposed to be still regular CSM. But it's funny to watch the 'muh lore' crowd who insisted Night Lords are totes not chaos instantly dump any pretense said lore matters and start loudly whining they can't WAAAC with bits that pee all over said lore
1. Only one pair of the claws in the Warp Talon/Raptor kit is mutated. The rest are completely normal and fit perfectly fine with the aesthetics of non-mutated Astartes.
2. Even if they are mutated, what does it matter? Night Lords as a whole might not worship Chaos, but that doesn't mean that ten millennia in the Eye doesn't result in some mutations. And some Night Lords plainly do worship Chaos.
3. Who is this "muh lore" person? Or if it's not a person but a group of people, why are you treating them like a monolithic being? Is it not possible that the people you refer to are different people with differing opinions?
The second largest contingent of night lords in the galaxy is led by a Daemon Prince. Them not being super chaos hasn't been a thing in decades lol.
Irbis wrote: They are mutated and half-demon limbs, much like the feet, arms, and heads of Warp Talons. They just don't fit on Raptor bodies as these are supposed to be still regular CSM. But it's funny to watch the 'muh lore' crowd who insisted Night Lords are totes not chaos instantly dump any pretense said lore matters and start loudly whining they can't WAAAC with bits that pee all over said lore
Raptors and Warp Talons are the same kit. What do you mean they don't fit on Raptor Bodies?
They are mutated and half-demon limbs, much like the feet, arms, and heads of Warp Talons. They just don't fit on Raptor bodies as these are supposed to be still regular CSM. But it's funny to watch the 'muh lore' crowd who insisted Night Lords are totes not chaos instantly dump any pretense said lore matters and start loudly whining they can't WAAAC with bits that pee all over said lore
1. Only one pair of the claws in the Warp Talon/Raptor kit is mutated. The rest are completely normal and fit perfectly fine with the aesthetics of non-mutated Astartes.
2. Even if they are mutated, what does it matter? Night Lords as a whole might not worship Chaos, but that doesn't mean that ten millennia in the Eye doesn't result in some mutations. And some Night Lords plainly do worship Chaos.
3. Who is this "muh lore" person? Or if it's not a person but a group of people, why are you treating them like a monolithic being? Is it not possible that the people you refer to are different people with differing opinions?
The second largest contingent of night lords in the galaxy is led by a Daemon Prince. Them not being super chaos hasn't been a thing in decades lol.
I think the Omnibus spells it out pretty well that they're all damned, they just look down on each other and the more you are in service of the gods the more they look down on you, even if they follow you because of old ranks, or just because you can rip them in half. It's why I'm using HH models as the bulk of my army, but mixing in CSM kits like Warp Talons feels on theme as well.
ERJAK wrote: Every chaos unit should have to roll separate D6s to determine their S, T, A, WS, BS, LD, and then roll on D100 table to determine their equipment.
Only then will you achieve TRUE chaos.
Unironically the best suggestion in any thread for 9th edition across all of Dakka. Get this one on the GW rules team!
EviscerationPlague wrote: That's how GW thinks it works. After all, look at their Havoc squads where they rolled dice to see what weapons they'd equip everyone with!
That's just Games Workshop's "Everything is Equally Effective and Valid" mentality shining through. It's been that way for literal decades when it comes to Devastator squads (and their ilk). They used to write tactics articles and state that Dev Squads with 4 different heavy weapons were the best.
EviscerationPlague wrote: That's how GW thinks it works. After all, look at their Havoc squads where they rolled dice to see what weapons they'd equip everyone with!
That's just Games Workshop's "Everything is Equally Effective and Valid" mentality shining through. It's been that way for literal decades when it comes to Devastator squads (and their ilk). They used to write tactics articles and state that Dev Squads with 4 different heavy weapons were the best.
Hold on now, they clearly told us that they have elite playtesters so it's the most balanced edition ever thanks to their patented "Playtested" TM technology. /s
Grimskul wrote: Hold on now, they clearly told us that they have elite playtesters so it's the most balanced edition ever thanks to their patented "Playtested" TM technology. /s
Well, this is GW. The left hand often does not know that the right hand even exists. And, in the case of this Codex, whether it can have Lightning Claws.
EviscerationPlague wrote: That's how GW thinks it works. After all, look at their Havoc squads where they rolled dice to see what weapons they'd equip everyone with!
That's just Games Workshop's "Everything is Equally Effective and Valid" mentality shining through. It's been that way for literal decades when it comes to Devastator squads (and their ilk). They used to write tactics articles and state that Dev Squads with 4 different heavy weapons were the best.
Ugh I forgot that was a thing. Anyone still have those articles saved anywhere?
I mean, it might be balanced relatively fine, but that isn’t really what most people are complaining about here—it’s mostly the loss/inconsistency of options that make no sense.
Gordon Shumway wrote: I mean, it might be balanced relatively fine, but that isn’t really what most people are complaining about here—it’s mostly the loss/inconsistency of options that make no sense.
I really don't think it's going to be fine externally based on these leaks, to be honest. Now of course there IS still stuff we haven't gotten to see yet, but nothing has especially stood out. Abaddon is an auto-include, at least. For mobility, especially since no Jump Packs for any HQs, I think Red Corsairs are gonna come out on top especially with their Strat to deny one reserve unit from coming out that turn.
Otherwise, not a lot that Loyalists can't do better.
Just seems there isn't a lot to be enthusiastic about.
ERJAK wrote: Every chaos unit should have to roll separate D6s to determine their S, T, A, WS, BS, LD, and then roll on D100 table to determine their equipment.
Only then will you achieve TRUE chaos.
d100?
REAL Chaos players who know their LORE roll on the d1000 table!
Spoiler:
With subtables as appropriate.
Spoiler:
Let me know when GW finally goes back to their ROOTS!
(I all honesty I would love a video game based on the original Realms of Chaos books where after every battle your warband mutates in some random way, with each mutation painfully animated like some Pokemon evolution from hell.)
It'll be as balanced as you would expect a GW codex to be.
The issue isn't even that 20-year-old armies are being made invalid.
An army built last edition would be invalid. Jump Pack lords and sorcerers, Terminators, Chosen, Chaos Marines, and Raptors with different loadouts.
Those units are the CORE of many armies, at least in some part. And the WORST part is that it's not like there's even an alternative Chaos Lord to buy that isn't the same repackaged one from Blackstone Fortress.
It's so insane... At this point I'd take the 5th edition codex back.
you forget that the kit does not come with Claws
the kit comes with Talons, and to actually use Claws you need to get them from a different kit and those don't fit /s
kodos wrote: you forget that the kit does not come with Claws
the kit comes with Talons, and to actually use Claws you need to get them from a different kit and those don't fit /s
The fact people seriously are taking this line, despite them being called, referred to, and played as lightning claws (and described as lightning claws) since 6th ed is proof of HBMCs point that GW fans legit have this sort of 1984 'We have ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia' thing.
I guess not. But at this point you could just use them as Warp Talons.
Are you serious?
Um... why shouldn't I? Raptors and Warp Talons are both just CSM with jump packs. Sure, the latter are kind of possessed, but Night Lords are, well, Chaos Space Marines. And they always were.
I guess not. But at this point you could just use them as Warp Talons.
Are you serious?
Um... why shouldn't I? Raptors and Warp Talons are both just CSM with jump packs. Sure, the latter are kind of possessed, but Night Lords are, well, Chaos Space Marines. And they always were.
yeah sure you could.
I could also run my R&H army as IG. Except that "ain't it, chief" on a whole slew of principal levels.
NVM the old metal raptor champion etc.
kodos wrote: you forget that the kit does not come with Claws
the kit comes with Talons, and to actually use Claws you need to get them from a different kit and those don't fit /s
The fact people seriously are taking this line, despite them being called, referred to, and played as lightning claws (and described as lightning claws) since 6th ed is proof of HBMCs point that GW fans legit have this sort of 1984 'We have ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia' thing.
I already said this, it actually would be funny if those players who take this seriously, would not take this over to other games as well
I guess not. But at this point you could just use them as Warp Talons.
Are you serious?
Um... why shouldn't I? Raptors and Warp Talons are both just CSM with jump packs. Sure, the latter are kind of possessed, but Night Lords are, well, Chaos Space Marines. And they always were.
yeah sure you could.
I could also run my R&H army as IG. Except that "ain't it, chief" on a whole slew of principal levels.
NVM the old metal raptor champion etc.
Yeah, an old model. What else? What are those 'principal levels'?
kodos wrote: you forget that the kit does not come with Claws
the kit comes with Talons, and to actually use Claws you need to get them from a different kit and those don't fit /s
The fact people seriously are taking this line, despite them being called, referred to, and played as lightning claws (and described as lightning claws) since 6th ed is proof of HBMCs point that GW fans legit have this sort of 1984 'We have ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia' thing.
I already said this, it actually would be funny if those players who take this seriously, would not take this over to other games as well
GW has trained their costumers well
WTF! I played GSC and Mechanicus for years without a codex (GSC since 2nd edition when they had a list, AM since 3rd). I just adapted. I wasn't happy with the situation, sure. I took pauses or played other games.
And here comes a self-righteous dork telling me I'm in some kind of cult. Get off of your high horse, snob.
I mean I think he's specifically talking about the people who now deny Warp Talons ever had lightning claws, and that lightning claws do not exist in the CSM army.
ERJAK wrote: Every chaos unit should have to roll separate D6s to determine their S, T, A, WS, BS, LD, and then roll on D100 table to determine their equipment.
Only then will you achieve TRUE chaos.
d100?
REAL Chaos players who know their LORE roll on the d1000 table!
Spoiler:
With subtables as appropriate.
Spoiler:
Let me know when GW finally goes back to their ROOTS!
(I all honesty I would love a video game based on the original Realms of Chaos books where after every battle your warband mutates in some random way, with each mutation painfully animated like some Pokemon evolution from hell.)
To be fair that d1000 table has only about 120 different results.
I guess not. But at this point you could just use them as Warp Talons.
Are you serious?
Um... why shouldn't I? Raptors and Warp Talons are both just CSM with jump packs. Sure, the latter are kind of possessed, but Night Lords are, well, Chaos Space Marines. And they always were.
yeah sure you could.
I could also run my R&H army as IG. Except that "ain't it, chief" on a whole slew of principal levels.
NVM the old metal raptor champion etc.
Yeah, an old model. What else? What are those 'principal levels'?
kodos wrote: you forget that the kit does not come with Claws
the kit comes with Talons, and to actually use Claws you need to get them from a different kit and those don't fit /s
The fact people seriously are taking this line, despite them being called, referred to, and played as lightning claws (and described as lightning claws) since 6th ed is proof of HBMCs point that GW fans legit have this sort of 1984 'We have ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia' thing.
I already said this, it actually would be funny if those players who take this seriously, would not take this over to other games as well
GW has trained their costumers well
WTF! I played GSC and Mechanicus for years without a codex (GSC since 2nd edition when they had a list, AM since 3rd). I just adapted. I wasn't happy with the situation, sure. I took pauses or played other games.
And here comes a self-righteous dork telling me I'm in some kind of cult. Get off of your high horse, snob.
See that underlined part. That is the principal in question, the fact that GSC got treatd the way it did and couldn't be represented in an effective way is preciscly that, same with AM which to this day similiar to CSM suffer from horrifically one-dimensional uncustomizable and even unfluffy ruleset not fit for the army in question, compared especially to iterations earlier. If a dex fails in such a fundamental design level then it is against the principals in question.
The Raptor champ without lightning claws is just a symptom of such and a minor case, the whole incoming csm dex is more than likely that, except it isn't even consistent with newer versions and iterations aswell. IoW it is unprincipled garbage in questions of design and faction identity.
blood reaper wrote: I mean I think he's specifically talking about the people who now deny Warp Talons ever had lightning claws, and that lightning claws do not exist in the CSM army.
by his reaction, that he takes it personal what we are talking about, I am not sure if he is not one of them
ERJAK wrote: Every chaos unit should have to roll separate D6s to determine their S, T, A, WS, BS, LD, and then roll on D100 table to determine their equipment.
Only then will you achieve TRUE chaos.
d100?
REAL Chaos players who know their LORE roll on the d1000 table!
Spoiler:
With subtables as appropriate.
Spoiler:
Let me know when GW finally goes back to their ROOTS!
(I all honesty I would love a video game based on the original Realms of Chaos books where after every battle your warband mutates in some random way, with each mutation painfully animated like some Pokemon evolution from hell.)
To be fair that d1000 table has only about 120 different results.
"I was promised a thousand possibilities and all I got was this stupid tentacle!"
It's a shame GW doesn't do anything with the many and varied mutations Chaos can bestow anymore. I guess it's a little sadder now that Necromunda got vehicle design rules and showed that somewhere in GW, some of that old hobby spirit is still alive. So I'm going to agree, if we can't have that in miniature form anymore, it would be great to see as a video game.
EviscerationPlague wrote: That's how GW thinks it works. After all, look at their Havoc squads where they rolled dice to see what weapons they'd equip everyone with!
That's just Games Workshop's "Everything is Equally Effective and Valid" mentality shining through. It's been that way for literal decades when it comes to Devastator squads (and their ilk). They used to write tactics articles and state that Dev Squads with 4 different heavy weapons were the best.
Hold on now, they clearly told us that they have elite playtesters so it's the most balanced edition ever thanks to their patented "Playtested" TM technology. /s
You got the trademarked term wrong. They have highly trained, top Citadel(TM) miniatures collectors who FineTest(TM) the new releases using Games Workshop(TM)'s patented FinePlay(TM) methodology.
I enjoy that people have moved on from legitimate reasons to be angry, tried to have other discourse and somehow just started cannibalising each other.
Also out of pure desperation we may as well try the Eldar thing and spam GW with emails respectfully asking they change the options.
community@gwplc.com
CustServ@gwplc.com
40kFAQ@gwplc.com
Quoting this for emphasis.
Constructive dialogue can result in positive change. There have been multiple instances in recent years of GW changing tack following coordinated community feedback.
Of course that didn't happen every time, but the odds are infinitely better than howling into Dakka Dakka threads for eternity.
Dudeface wrote: I enjoy that people have moved on from legitimate reasons to be angry, tried to have other discourse and somehow just started cannibalising each other.
One of the problem is that there's basically nothing of value to discuss.
We have all the information (and it's bad, to say the least).
There's been like one positive (the Land Raider improvements) and unfortunately, everyone then realised "well there's a high chance this positive is going to be marred by the typical GW issues" (i.e., these benefits not appearing in other codexes). One particularly annoying person then came into the thread, made the stupidest statements imaginable (Lightning Claws? You fething WAAC bastard!) and then people legitimately began trying to argue that lightning claws were not in the Raptor box in some kind of bizarre 1984 esque re-writing of history.
Yeah I think now the disappointment is kinda out there in the wild now, might as well draw a line under it to some degree and figure out what the book can or does do, what lists people might like, what combos there are etc.
Agree that fi anyone is that annoyed, GW's email addresses are openly available to vent at.
Dudeface wrote: I enjoy that people have moved on from legitimate reasons to be angry, tried to have other discourse and somehow just started cannibalising each other.
Well look at you there on your high horse, so above the fray.
Dudeface wrote: I enjoy that people have moved on from legitimate reasons to be angry, tried to have other discourse and somehow just started cannibalising each other.
Well look at you there on your high horse, so above the fray. Get back in the gutter, swine.
I don't like how unstable a game 40k has become. I could tear about models to rebuild them to match the new codex rules but there is a solid chance that all the stuff that is missing will just get put back in for the next codex. GW can't keep its codex design philosophy for longer than 30 seconds so who knows what it will be like in the next book.
Not in kit, not in rules has not even been applied to half of the 9th armies. Just a group of them likely designed at about the same time before someone changed their mind. Then again most codexes seem to have not in kit, not in rules randomly applied to random units in their codex as well.
I am not changing stuff to fit the new but likely temporary codex design philosophy for CSM. And there is no point in buying anything now because it could completely change with the next edition. So I won't.
everything for 9th is out, next rumours are for 10th Edition CSM Codex
PS:
my guess is that GW is playing 4D underwater chess here:
1. get a good rule set with dedicated Traitor Legion rules out
2. make it a big plastic box set with all new models
3. make such a bad CSM Codex that all the 40k Traitor Legion players are so annoyed to buy the new HH box set twice purly out of frustration
4. win-win and profit (many boxes sold, many new HH players so that the question of there is a local community to play with is an easy yes, shareholders are happy because it was not only Covid that made the record sales)
blood reaper wrote: I mean I think he's specifically talking about the people who now deny Warp Talons ever had lightning claws, and that lightning claws do not exist in the CSM army.
by his reaction, that he takes it personal what we are talking about, I am not sure if he is not one of them
I bended the rules and WYSIWYG for more then 20 years and I had a lot of fun with conversions. I just wonder why people with Raptors with claws just don't use the Warp Talon rules.
And yes, I take it personal and arrogant if someone like you, who didn't play any GW game for many years, is still appointed to call those who do trained simps. A bit more sense of reality and modesty would be a start.
blood reaper wrote: I mean I think he's specifically talking about the people who now deny Warp Talons ever had lightning claws, and that lightning claws do not exist in the CSM army.
by his reaction, that he takes it personal what we are talking about, I am not sure if he is not one of them
I bended the rules and WYSIWYG for more then 20 years and I had a lot of fun with conversions. I just wonder why people with Raptors with claws just don't use the Warp Talon rules.
And yes, I take it personal and arrogant if someone like you, who didn't play any GW game for many years, is still appointed to call those who do trained simps. A bit more sense of reality and modesty would be a start.
well, the problem:
having 1 model in a unit of 5 that has Claws is not allowed to be used any more because the Claws in the kit are Talons and "no model no rules" + WYSIWYG
and your solution is:
buy another box to get a unit of Warp Talons
yeah, you are a perfect trained simp
PS: and yes, with such releases I am glad I am out of 40k and won't come back
lets see what the 10th Edition CSM Codex brings
blood reaper wrote: I mean I think he's specifically talking about the people who now deny Warp Talons ever had lightning claws, and that lightning claws do not exist in the CSM army.
by his reaction, that he takes it personal what we are talking about, I am not sure if he is not one of them
I bended the rules and WYSIWYG for more then 20 years and I had a lot of fun with conversions. I just wonder why people with Raptors with claws just don't use the Warp Talon rules.
And yes, I take it personal and arrogant if someone like you, who didn't play any GW game for many years, is still appointed to call those who do trained simps. A bit more sense of reality and modesty would be a start.
well, the problem:
having 1 model in a unit of 5 that has Claws is not allowed to be used any more because the Claws in the kit are Talons and "no model no rules" + WYSIWYG
and your solution is:
buy another box to get a unit of Warp Talons
yeah, you are a perfect trained simp
PS: and yes, with such releases I am glad I am out of 40k and won't come back
lets see what the 10th Edition CSM Codex brings
Well... you don't understand anything. At all. And this post... are you drunk?
PM me in German if you need help or some serious talk. Being a jerk isn't the best appearance in a forum and as I don't want to be something like that I'll stop it now.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Oh yeah, drive-by accusing another poster of being an alcoholic is taking the moral high ground.
Not really (though I like my beer too). Kodos is usually quite direct and has his points, but I'm not willing to take those insults undisputed. That's all.
blood reaper wrote: I mean I think he's specifically talking about the people who now deny Warp Talons ever had lightning claws, and that lightning claws do not exist in the CSM army.
by his reaction, that he takes it personal what we are talking about, I am not sure if he is not one of them
I bended the rules and WYSIWYG for more then 20 years and I had a lot of fun with conversions. I just wonder why people with Raptors with claws just don't use the Warp Talon rules.
How many special ranged weapons can a warp talon squad take?
blood reaper wrote: I mean I think he's specifically talking about the people who now deny Warp Talons ever had lightning claws, and that lightning claws do not exist in the CSM army.
by his reaction, that he takes it personal what we are talking about, I am not sure if he is not one of them
I bended the rules and WYSIWYG for more then 20 years and I had a lot of fun with conversions. I just wonder why people with Raptors with claws just don't use the Warp Talon rules.
How many special ranged weapons can a warp talon squad take?
I mean to be fair if calling some lightning claws a powefist is beyond the realm of reasonable compromise or imagination then calling a flamer lightning claws likely is too.
Ultimately I find the change weird more than annoying, it's likely to give raptors a more defined visual silhouette via loadouts.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Oh yeah, drive-by accusing another poster of being an alcoholic is taking the moral high ground.
Not really (though I like my beer too). Kodos is usually quite direct and has his points, but I'm not willing to take those insults undisputed. That's all.
they only one that insults people is you
if you feel personal insulted by a general statement that people who defend the GW "no model no rules" in the case of Raptors because the kit comes with Talons that are not meant to be used as Claws are fallen for GW marketing (in your words trained simps)
than I guess I just hit your sensitive point
and if you feel the need to defend GW by directly insulting other people, or think that people who call GW's bs out must be drunk
I don't see why this make my original statement less ture
Dudeface wrote: I mean to be fair if calling some lightning claws a powefist is beyond the realm of reasonable compromise or imagination then calling a flamer lightning claws likely is too.
Ultimately I find the change weird more than annoying, it's likely to give raptors a more defined visual silhouette via loadouts.
in the usual friendly gaming envoirnment, WYSIWYG is long gone anyway
so this won't be a problem at all
but trying to justify the change by there are no Claws in the kit, is on a different level and is simple the prime example of the stupidity we find in the new Codex
PS: and that former 40k players take this bs over to games as well is something I personally feel angry about (I just wandered were this came from on the weekend because it was never a problem before that Claws, Talons, Lightning Claws, Warp Claws, Wolf Claws, Frost Claws are all the same basic weapon-model in the kits)
blood reaper wrote: I mean I think he's specifically talking about the people who now deny Warp Talons ever had lightning claws, and that lightning claws do not exist in the CSM army.
by his reaction, that he takes it personal what we are talking about, I am not sure if he is not one of them
I bended the rules and WYSIWYG for more then 20 years and I had a lot of fun with conversions. I just wonder why people with Raptors with claws just don't use the Warp Talon rules.
How many special ranged weapons can a warp talon squad take?
I mean to be fair if calling some lightning claws a powefist is beyond the realm of reasonable compromise or imagination then calling a flamer lightning claws likely is too.
Ultimately I find the change weird more than annoying, it's likely to give raptors a more defined visual silhouette via loadouts.
'Defined visual silhouette'
GW must have the most sterile concept of game and figure design imaginable. By far the most anti-hobby company out there.
Xyxel wrote: Please change to name of this thread to : "CSM whining list".
Hardly any rumors here to read.
Complaining about a product for the betterment of it is not whining. Go take your toxic positivity elsewhere.
I've done clinical research on toxic positivity. What he wrote is not toxic positivity. He's right. This thread has degenerated in to unproductive, baseless complaining, in typical fashion for this forum. I also vote for closing this thread.
edit: god, and I thought eldar players were the whiniest...
Dryaktylus wrote: I bended the rules and WYSIWYG for more then 20 years and I had a lot of fun with conversions. I just wonder why people with Raptors with claws just don't use the Warp Talon rules.
Well, personally, and I might be a bit of an odd example, because I already have as many Warp Talons as I can use. Three full squads. 30 models. I don't need any more.
And, further, I've been running lightning claws on Raptor Aspiring Champions for 20 years, as well as quite a few of my CSM, Chosen, and Havoc Aspiring Champions. Oh, and my Chaos Lords. And it's been a legal option that entire time. There's absolutely no logical reason for lightning claws to be removed as an option for any of those. It's completely arbitrary and pointless. Same for removing the option of jump packs from our Chaos Lords and Sorcerers.
Zachectomy wrote: This thread has degenerated in to unproductive, baseless complaining, in typical fashion for this forum. I also vote for closing this thread.
To which I repeat:
We're discussing the rumours and leaks. Just yesterday we got a bunch of new sheets leaked.
That was less than 24 hours ago! What the hell else do you want?
BrotherGecko wrote: I don't like how unstable a game 40k has become. I could tear about models to rebuild them to match the new codex rules but there is a solid chance that all the stuff that is missing will just get put back in for the next codex.
Two. And they can both be the same weapon, unlike Legionnaire squads, despite both kits only having one of each type.
Chaosistency!!!
Well aktsuahly warp talons don't get specials Despite having specials in the box
Dudeface wrote: ... it's likely to give raptors a more defined visual silhouette via loadouts.
For real? The Champ not having access to a weapon he's had access to for 23 years will suddenly give Ratpors are "more defined visual silhouette"?
Aye, someone could've mistaken the chainsword boltpistol wielding squad due to the Champion with warptalons, a squad that solely has aftermentioned talons.
That could be devastating.
...
/s.
Are you wanting to count the time they took to train blind monkeys to use a typewriter or just the time that it took to gather up all the sheets of paper?
Not Online!!! wrote: Well aktsuahly warp talons don't get specials Despite having specials in the box
Sorry! My bad. Thought you said Raptors, not Warp Talons.
Still, its another failure of the NMNR, afterall it is in there, and NMNR is there for newbies (supposedly) and maybee those newbies want some specials on their Warp talons.
And NMNR is perfect, as we all know, and entirely not arbitrary, as we all know.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lol, looks like GW just leaked all the CSM points from the new codex in the Points update today
Well, i have to say things look a bit more promising.
Sure, loosing quite a number of options hurts ( you will be missed, chaos lord with jumppack and powerclaws. I was rooting for you till the end...).
But then that is what happens with new codexes. I will adapt my troops ( either the lord will join the lord (s) on daemonic mount in being "nice to look at" or be degraded to warptalon Champ).
Marks/Icons might actually hit a sweet spot of being usefull AND fitting. I cannot remember this to ever have been the case.
Most buffs/changes seem reasonable within the rather unreasonable 9th Ed.
Better rules for the long-ignored "old" vehicles? YES! Take that, "GW only buffs new stuff to sell more" crowd.
Internal balance might be the best ever ( people forget that even the legendary 3.5 Codex was 80% trash rules.) Will it be fun to play with/against? I shall find out. Rather sad about the IW rules, though. While i DO love my grumpy emo marines i just do not think "you are in more danger behind cover than out in the open" is good for the game as a whole. So i actually hope we are not good enough to see much play.
BTW: do we have any news on Huron? There were some Rumour Engine Pics that could have been him but i did not read anything about him lately.
Looks like TS and DG are not getting T9 Land Raiders as the points for them went down to 245, whereas CSM is at 265. Indicates they aren't going to be FAQ'd for consistency.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Are you wanting to count the time they took to train blind monkeys to use a typewriter or just the time that it took to gather up all the sheets of paper?
They obviously already have the monkeys pre-trained, as you can see from some of the previous Codices from this edition.
But then that is what happens with new codexes. I will adapt my troops ( either the lord will join the lord (s) on daemonic mount in being "nice to look at" or be degraded to warptalon Champ).
The limitation situation is a fantastic example of how utterly subpar GW is as a company when it comes to designing rules. If it isn't outright malice, it has to be outright stupidity or incompetence.
Combi-Plasmas don't exist for any vehicles anymore - "Because there's no piece in the kit! " snide defenders will say. But yet for whatever reason, the Chaos Terminator Lord can take it - even though his model doesn't have it. He can also take a Combi-Flamer, yet he doesn't have that either. The same goes for the Chaos Sorcerer.
Obviously equipping the models as such is a plea for decreasing your shelf space - because you know GW will cut that option out later on. There's an incredible amount of 'planned redundancy' in the codex - and the people who defend it come off as people just desperate to buy more junk.
Xyxel wrote: Please change to name of this thread to : "CSM whining list".
Hardly any rumors here to read.
Complaining about a product for the betterment of it is not whining. Go take your toxic positivity elsewhere.
I've done clinical research on toxic positivity. What he wrote is not toxic positivity. He's right. This thread has degenerated in to unproductive, baseless complaining, in typical fashion for this forum. I also vote for closing this thread.
edit: god, and I thought eldar players were the whiniest...
Close the thread? The codex isn't even out yet. We still have more waiting and seeing to do!
chaos0xomega wrote: Looks like TS and DG are not getting T9 Land Raiders as the points for them went down to 245, whereas CSM is at 265. Indicates they aren't going to be FAQ'd for consistency.
Yeah, lame. Same for Vindicators, CSM Vindicators are more expensive than anyone else's. So, I guess no one else's Vindicators get the "new and improved" Demolisher Cannon just yet, either.
But, interestingly, the same is true for Predators. Ours are more expensive than anyone else's. Which begs the question: how did they change Predators?
chaos0xomega wrote: Looks like TS and DG are not getting T9 Land Raiders as the points for them went down to 245, whereas CSM is at 265. Indicates they aren't going to be FAQ'd for consistency.
Yeah, lame. Same for Vindicators, CSM Vindicators are more expensive than anyone else's. So, I guess no one else's Vindicators get the "new and improved" Demolisher Cannon just yet, either.
But, interestingly, the same is true for Predators. Ours are more expensive than anyone else's. Which begs the question: how did they change Predators?
incidentally the SM ALSO don't get a 265 land raider, they still got a 245 one
chaos0xomega wrote: Looks like TS and DG are not getting T9 Land Raiders as the points for them went down to 245, whereas CSM is at 265. Indicates they aren't going to be FAQ'd for consistency.
Yeah, lame. Same for Vindicators, CSM Vindicators are more expensive than anyone else's. So, I guess no one else's Vindicators get the "new and improved" Demolisher Cannon just yet, either.
But, interestingly, the same is true for Predators. Ours are more expensive than anyone else's. Which begs the question: how did they change Predators?
incidentally the SM ALSO don't get a 265 land raider, they still got a 245 one
Well, the update needs to happen first. Getting the points increase first would cause a notable negative reaction.
chaos0xomega wrote: Looks like TS and DG are not getting T9 Land Raiders as the points for them went down to 245, whereas CSM is at 265. Indicates they aren't going to be FAQ'd for consistency.
Yeah, lame. Same for Vindicators, CSM Vindicators are more expensive than anyone else's. So, I guess no one else's Vindicators get the "new and improved" Demolisher Cannon just yet, either.
But, interestingly, the same is true for Predators. Ours are more expensive than anyone else's. Which begs the question: how did they change Predators?
incidentally the SM ALSO don't get a 265 land raider, they still got a 245 one
Well, the update needs to happen first. Getting the points increase first would cause a notable negative reaction.
considering how long csm waited for a second wound, actually no, i think it would've been perfectly fine for SM to wait for a bit
/S
of course i am joking but you get my point i think
blood reaper wrote: Combi-Plasmas don't exist for any vehicles anymore - "Because there's no piece in the kit! " snide defenders will say. But yet for whatever reason, the Chaos Terminator Lord can take it - even though his model doesn't have it. He can also take a Combi-Flamer, yet he doesn't have that either. The same goes for the Chaos Sorcerer.
I’m looking forward to using 10 EC chosen in the new buffed land raider it’s a nice niche they have due to being medium infantry that they only take up 1 slot unlike termies and possessed.
Can we focus on the CSM instead of having meta discussions about the opinions abouy the product? Most of the last several pages haven't been about the rumors but instead people taking shots at each other.
blood reaper wrote: Combi-Plasmas don't exist for any vehicles anymore - "Because there's no piece in the kit! " snide defenders will say. But yet for whatever reason, the Chaos Terminator Lord can take it - even though his model doesn't have it. He can also take a Combi-Flamer, yet he doesn't have that either. The same goes for the Chaos Sorcerer.
There's that Chaosistency again.
All I can think of when I read this is the end of Sonic when Robotnik is doing "Rock-connaissance ".
The fact there's someone in the thread trying to argue this is better than the 3.5 ed codex proves that, while you won't please a lot of people, you will always somehow please someone.
Just for the haters:
I think its the best CSM codex we ever had!
Im a veteran since 3rd edition and im totaly hyped for all the new options and synergies.
Is it a perfect Codex? No. Is it better then anything we had befor, hell yeah!!!
3.5 was good, but at that time we played with "9 obliterator spam" the "invisible" minor psychic powers, later with "lash" and "invis" for whole units. I dont want those things back!
blood reaper wrote: The fact there's someone in the thread trying to argue this is better than the 3.5 ed codex proves that, while you won't please a lot of people, you will always somehow please someone.
Personally I think 3.5 was garbage. The 6th edition codex with the inclusion of the Legion supplement was the correct rules, granted over too many books. It just needed some cleaning up with redundant rules, giving units more defined roles (like Plague Marines vs Chosen vs Chaos Marines in a Death Guard list), and it could've been greatness. Instead, we have two separate codices for Legions when it wasn't even necessary and inconsistent rules throughout.
Badger wrote:Just for the haters:
I think its the best CSM codex we ever had!
Im a veteran since 3rd edition and im totaly hyped for all the new options and synergies.
Is it a perfect Codex? No. Is it better then anything we had befor, hell yeah!!!
3.5 was good, but at that time we played with "9 obliterator spam" the "invisible" minor psychic powers, later with "lash" and "invis" for whole units. I dont want those things back!
EviscerationPlague wrote:
blood reaper wrote: The fact there's someone in the thread trying to argue this is better than the 3.5 ed codex proves that, while you won't please a lot of people, you will always somehow please someone.
Personally I think 3.5 was garbage. The 6th edition codex with the inclusion of the Legion supplement was the correct rules, granted over too many books. It just needed some cleaning up with redundant rules, giving units more defined roles (like Plague Marines vs Chosen vs Chaos Marines in a Death Guard list), and it could've been greatness. Instead, we have two separate codices for Legions when it wasn't even necessary and inconsistent rules throughout.
You're both mad, 3.5 was the best it's ever been for fluff and options and I will happily die on this hill.
Badger wrote: Just for the haters:
I think its the best CSM codex we ever had!
Im a veteran since 3rd edition and im totaly hyped for all the new options and synergies.
Is it a perfect Codex? No. Is it better then anything we had befor, hell yeah!!!
3.5 was good, but at that time we played with "9 obliterator spam" the "invisible" minor psychic powers, later with "lash" and "invis" for whole units. I dont want those things back!
Badger wrote: Just for the haters:
I think its the best CSM codex we ever had!
Im a veteran since 3rd edition and im totaly hyped for all the new options and synergies.
Is it a perfect Codex? No. Is it better then anything we had befor, hell yeah!!!
3.5 was good, but at that time we played with "9 obliterator spam" the "invisible" minor psychic powers, later with "lash" and "invis" for whole units. I dont want those things back!
This Codex just turned my BL army from usable but not brilliant, to literally unusable. My Terminators, Raptors, and Chosen can't take their modeled equipment anymore, my Exalted Champion seems to have been erased, I've lost my Plague Marines and Berzerkers, and to top it off I can't field my 10-man CSM squads anymore because of the restrictions on Special Weapons.
But sure yeah this Codex is great.
Badger wrote:Just for the haters:
I think its the best CSM codex we ever had!
Im a veteran since 3rd edition and im totaly hyped for all the new options and synergies.
Is it a perfect Codex? No. Is it better then anything we had befor, hell yeah!!!
3.5 was good, but at that time we played with "9 obliterator spam" the "invisible" minor psychic powers, later with "lash" and "invis" for whole units. I dont want those things back!
EviscerationPlague wrote:
blood reaper wrote: The fact there's someone in the thread trying to argue this is better than the 3.5 ed codex proves that, while you won't please a lot of people, you will always somehow please someone.
Personally I think 3.5 was garbage. The 6th edition codex with the inclusion of the Legion supplement was the correct rules, granted over too many books. It just needed some cleaning up with redundant rules, giving units more defined roles (like Plague Marines vs Chosen vs Chaos Marines in a Death Guard list), and it could've been greatness. Instead, we have two separate codices for Legions when it wasn't even necessary and inconsistent rules throughout.
You're both mad, 3.5 was the best it's ever been for fluff and options and I will happily die on this hill.
I'm not concerned with the fluff contents of 3.5. Crunch wise, a cleaned up 6th + Legion Supplement was a lot better for creating a Legion to also be YOUR dudes.
Voss wrote: Yeah, but... does it do anything since they can't be marked? Nor do they have the chaos undivided keyword.
The ICON keyword at the very least is needed for the Word Bearer's secondary objective, and I can only imagine that there might be strats tied to it too.
Without seeing the CSM Lord sheet some of that could be free wargear now, or renamed wargear like the chainaxe.
They already have the free wargear listed with 0 points instead of REMOVED, just look at the Chainfist and Power Fist entries for the Terminator lord below
Without seeing the CSM Lord sheet some of that could be free wargear now, or renamed wargear like the chainaxe.
They already have the free wargear listed with 0 points instead of REMOVED, just look at the Chainfist and Power Fist entries for the Terminator lord below
And are they assuming those are free because they're in the kit? Because if they're breaking NDA to let slip codex content early that could cause them trouble.
If someone says something directed at "Dae Haters!" and then proceeds to post a purposefully inflamatory opinion, I think it's safe to say one probably shouldn't engage
Without seeing the CSM Lord sheet some of that could be free wargear now, or renamed wargear like the chainaxe.
You think lightning claws and jump packs are going to be free?
I said some of it could be free. I never claimed all of it would be. Leave the strawman to farmers.
I'm hoping for a Jump Pack Relic more than expecting wargear.
I'm not "strawmaning", I'm trying to find out what I need to "wait and see". So, ok, you don't expect "free" jump packs and lightning claws. What are you expecting? Bolters and chainswords? Because I seriously doubt that combi-weapons are going to be free, and that's pretty much everything that's missing.
Rules are over and over bloated like a rotten cadaver but Army List options are limited like a joke... Killteam 2nd Edition is an unreasonable demand and a crime on army build.
I fear 10th Edition will be a devolution to very very basic core rules and very limited options.
I remember thinking 5th Edition was the worst edition...
I certainly am going to miss my combi-bolter Aspiring Champions. They were often my CSMAC of choice, if for no other reason as to show off part of Black Legion's subfaction ability with almost all the RF weapons it applied to. But not only that, so many games had them go 'Lone Luna Wolf' and do way more than a single 1W CSM should have ever been able to accomplish. You marines will be punishing the loyalists in the Realm of Souls now, and you've certainly earned it. It's a shame, all 3 of them really had Chaos Lord or even Daemon Prince potential...
ph34r wrote:Same with my daemon prince's ranged weapon project, that's canceled
Just delayed til about December. New one has a gun. The datasheet in the codex has less than six months of life to it.
Well, that's confusing.
Yeah. It got leaked, so they showed off the model during the Warhammer Fest Preview. But it isn't coming out until around the Slaves to Darkness release in December. Or maybe the Chaos Daemons Codex sometime off around that time. But until then, the codex datasheet is for the current model, not the model that we already know exists.
On the plus side, the new one looks much better and has god specific heads, and a warp bolter arm option.
On the downside, the whole thing highlights how pointlessly ephemeral this release model is.
ph34r wrote:Same with my daemon prince's ranged weapon project, that's canceled
Just delayed til about December. New one has a gun. The datasheet in the codex has less than six months of life to it.
Well, that's confusing.
Yeah. It got leaked, so they showed off the model during the Warhammer Fest Preview. But it isn't coming out until around the Slaves to Darkness release in December. Or maybe the Chaos Daemons Codex sometime off around that time. But until then, the codex datasheet is for the current model, not the model that we already know exists.
On the plus side, the new one looks much better and has god specific heads, and a warp bolter arm option.
On the downside, the whole thing highlights how pointlessly ephemeral this release model is.
I mean we're making the bold assumption that they'll update the chaos marine prince at all rather than just giving daemons the new profile.
ph34r wrote:Same with my daemon prince's ranged weapon project, that's canceled
Just delayed til about December. New one has a gun. The datasheet in the codex has less than six months of life to it.
Well, that's confusing.
Yeah. It got leaked, so they showed off the model during the Warhammer Fest Preview. But it isn't coming out until around the Slaves to Darkness release in December. Or maybe the Chaos Daemons Codex sometime off around that time. But until then, the codex datasheet is for the current model, not the model that we already know exists.
On the plus side, the new one looks much better and has god specific heads, and a warp bolter arm option.
On the downside, the whole thing highlights how pointlessly ephemeral this release model is.
I mean we're making the bold assumption that they'll update the chaos marine prince at all rather than just giving daemons the new profile.
Not... really. They took pains to show off the 'daemon marine ascendant' builds of the model and tie it into the Chaos Marine release during the preview show.
There are some limits to their crappy behavior, and it generally stops well before _not_ selling a model.
Few expected otherwise. Says a lot that the basic abandonment of creativity and narrative in giving CSM the same doctrine ability loyalists have is a minor point in the list of criticisms.
Boy oh boy, the corporate simps were out in force today huh? My condolences to active CSM players. At least your sacrifice provoked some water carrying worth witnessing. I liked the "lightning claws never existed" one.
Has it been said anywhere which discipline the Balefire tome has access to? And I'm presuming that it's cast 1 deny 1 and already knows smite (silly to presume but...).
ph34r wrote:Same with my daemon prince's ranged weapon project, that's canceled
Just delayed til about December. New one has a gun. The datasheet in the codex has less than six months of life to it.
Well, that's confusing.
Yeah. It got leaked, so they showed off the model during the Warhammer Fest Preview. But it isn't coming out until around the Slaves to Darkness release in December. Or maybe the Chaos Daemons Codex sometime off around that time. But until then, the codex datasheet is for the current model, not the model that we already know exists.
On the plus side, the new one looks much better and has god specific heads, and a warp bolter arm option.
On the downside, the whole thing highlights how pointlessly ephemeral this release model is.
I mean we're making the bold assumption that they'll update the chaos marine prince at all rather than just giving daemons the new profile.
Not... really. They took pains to show off the 'daemon marine ascendant' builds of the model and tie it into the Chaos Marine release during the preview show.
There are some limits to their crappy behavior, and it generally stops well before _not_ selling a model.
Well, I'm sure death guard possessed disagree. I'd also expect them to update all 3 books daemon prince if that's the case. I'm happy to be wrong but I can't see them updating the profile.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Has it been said anywhere which discipline the Balefire tome has access to? And I'm presuming that it's cast 1 deny 1 and already knows smite (silly to presume but...).
I’m having a hard time trying to decide if the amount of manufactured outrage or unwarranted surprise is greater in this thread. I know it is a Chaos thread, but so much salt for things that were rightfully expected has reached a new level.
Still, if you want change, then respectfully write GW and ask about the unreasonable changes they have made. They might reverse them like they did with the Aeldari Autaurk issue. Just be sure they are changes that don’t make sense rather than those you just don’t like. Toss too much at them and the reasonable are likely to get missed in the volume.
For example, I wouldn’t bother asking about the loss of Jump Packs for Chaos Lords. There is no current Chaos Lord with a Jump Pack model. So the CLwJP gets to hang out with all the other retired models like Space Marine Librarians or Drukari Archons not hoofing it around on foot.
I also wouldn’t waste your time asking after options that are not supported by the current kits. Warpsmiths don’t have combi-weapons because the current kit’s only option is Axe (included in base cost) or Thunder hammer.
You might be a bit saltly about not being allowed to double up special or heavy weapons in your Legionnarie squads, but you get to stand in line behind all the other troops squads that have been seriously limied in the most recent version of their codex, like Battle Sisters, Skitarii, Firewarriors, Harliquin Troupes, and Wyches to name just a few.
Instead, concentrate on the truly strange like:
Why can’t Chosen take Power Fist when the kits comes with multiple of them?
Why can’t Raptor Champions take 1 or 2 Lightning Claws? The box does have 5 pairs of them for the Warp Talon version of the build.
I agree I really don't see the issue with the new book? So what if your warpsmith has a combi weapon just say before the game he's not WYSIWYG and it's fine. I play at events fairly regularly and as long as you explain what everything is as the start of the game then people don't really care as long as you are clear.
Rules wise I think the codex looks alright so far, nothing utterly crazy except for Abby but then we haven't seen the stratagems yet and they are quite often massively important for the book. I'm looking forward to getting some games in when the book Congress out and just experimenting with things. Our fast attack slots are looking quite busy now with spawn and VC being dirt cheap and warp talons having a million attacks each.
Also these leaks have made me consider a land raider for the first time in about 20 years.
For those Chaos Players upset about the loss of equipment. Come on over to Heresy. We have LOADS of equipment options, build variation and just enough reactions to make the game interesting!
Silliness aside, I actually think Marines really shine in Heresy, compared to 40k were they're now more of a joke. There is so much build variation it's incredible. Our base level lieutenant has more wargear options than the entirety of the Chaos Character section from 40k!
alextroy wrote: I’m having a hard time trying to decide if the amount of manufactured outrage or unwarranted surprise is greater in this thread. I know it is a Chaos thread, but so much salt for things that were rightfully expected has reached a new level.
Oh, good, you've dismissed reasonable criticism as a possibility from the start. You definitely have things to say that are worth listening to.
Togusa wrote: For those Chaos Players upset about the loss of equipment. Come on over to Heresy. We have LOADS of equipment options, build variation and just enough reactions to make the game interesting!
Silliness aside, I actually think Marines really shine in Heresy, compared to 40k were they're now more of a joke. There is so much build variation it's incredible. Our base level lieutenant has more wargear options than the entirety of the Chaos Character section from 40k!
Togusa wrote: For those Chaos Players upset about the loss of equipment. Come on over to Heresy. We have LOADS of equipment options, build variation and just enough reactions to make the game interesting!
Silliness aside, I actually think Marines really shine in Heresy, compared to 40k were they're now more of a joke. There is so much build variation it's incredible. Our base level lieutenant has more wargear options than the entirety of the Chaos Character section from 40k!
alextroy wrote: I’m having a hard time trying to decide if the amount of manufactured outrage or unwarranted surprise is greater in this thread. I know it is a Chaos thread, but so much salt for things that were rightfully expected has reached a new level.
At least for me it's not manufactured. We knew from a lot of the leaks that a lot of this stuff was likely to happen, but there was always that hope that those were simply playtest rules and they wouldn't do us so dirty.
Most of the removals were different Icon types, which is simply due to there being a different icon system. That's fine. (Also, different icons work differently for different datasheets, that's not annoying at all.)
A lot of the rest of the removals were combi-weapons of varying types. I can live without those options, combi-weapons always struck me personally as goofy and cumbersome. Still, they've given other factions, like Sisters of Battle, butt-loads of combi-weapons across the range, so why didn't they include more bits in Chaos kits?
The rest of the removals we expected, but are still disappointing. Jump packs, lightning claws, a slew of other melee and ranged weapons going the way of the dodo. Yes, few of those things have kits, but I keep hammering on this point:
WHY DON'T THE KITS HAVE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE???
I'm disappointed in every aspect of GW when it comes to Chaos Marines.
>I'm upset at the Design studio for not adding an extra sprue of options here or there to flesh out unit options.
>I'm disappointed in the Rules team and their managers for pushing this 'only what's in the box' prerogative.
>I'm disappointed in the Marketing team for trying to make it sound like this is gunna be such a great new Codex.
But the true frustration comes in at the very start of the system, the design of the kits, particularly of the Chaos Terminators. They could have chopped out some of the options that existed in order to flesh out other things. Take out the Lightning Claws and random singular Chainaxe and give us more Chainfists, Power Swords, and maybe a second combi-plasma at LEAST. The Chosen? Lots and lots of options, but again, myriad random junk that could have been chopped out in favor of giving us a squad that could be useful, instead of a hodge-podge. Chaos Legionaries? Pretty good, but c'mon rules team, let us take 2 of the same special weapon in a squad. It is more likely that a player is going to buy 2 boxes of Legionaries and have the bits to kit out multiple squads, why limit us in this inane way?
And, again, with the Chaos Lord. The frustration is that the design team hasn't released a new Chaos Lord to us with actual options so we can make something compelling.
Then I look over at Horus Heresy and you can give every single Cataphractii or Tartaros Terminator in a box of 10 lightning claws. You can give them all power fists. You have tons of combi-weapons and other options in the kit. The vehicles all come with a chock-full upgrade sprue JUST FOR PINTLE WEAPONS.
We know they can do it, so why don't they? Why do they keep giving us half-solutions?
With what little I know of the GW design studio it feels like the CSM updates aren't getting enough time to fully flesh out the ideas, enough budget to afford to do everything they plan on adding in, or maybe the issue is personnel related.
It's clear that there are one or more factors involved but I can't even hazard a guess to which.
One thing is for sure, a Black Templar style upgrade sprue would sort a lot of the problems and justify opening up more options to the army.
Well that and giving us access to any options we can take using HH models. I highly doubt I'll be the only one dipping between the two games for with the models after all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The more I think about it the more I feel like I'll be writing my own letter to the design team after the book comes out and we get some idea ehat the ehole image looks like. I have no hope for fixing this edition, but it'd be nice if even a fraction of it made it to the next one.
Badger wrote: 3.5 was good, but at that time we played with "9 obliterator spam" the "invisible" minor psychic powers, later with "lash" and "invis" for whole units. I dont want those things back!
Two of the things you just described weren't even in the 3.5 Chaos Codex, and the "invisible" minor power was Siren, something that only Slaaneshi psykers could get.
Togusa wrote: For those Chaos Players upset about the loss of equipment. Come on over to Heresy. We have LOADS of equipment options, build variation and just enough reactions to make the game interesting!
Silliness aside, I actually think Marines really shine in Heresy, compared to 40k were they're now more of a joke. There is so much build variation it's incredible. Our base level lieutenant has more wargear options than the entirety of the Chaos Character section from 40k!
Don't tempt me now.
Bruh, I've been enjoying this new launch and it is satiating my taste for Marines way more than 40K has. What I would say is it's worth the time and research to find out if HH2.0 is for you or not.
Togusa wrote: For those Chaos Players upset about the loss of equipment. Come on over to Heresy. We have LOADS of equipment options, build variation and just enough reactions to make the game interesting!
Silliness aside, I actually think Marines really shine in Heresy, compared to 40k were they're now more of a joke. There is so much build variation it's incredible. Our base level lieutenant has more wargear options than the entirety of the Chaos Character section from 40k!
Don't tempt me now.
Bruh, I've been enjoying this new launch and it is satiating my taste for Marines way more than 40K has. What I would say is it's worth the time and research to find out if HH2.0 is for you or not.
You gotta send me the Praetor datasheet. If I can get SOME use of my Combi-Flamer Chapter Master and not feel bad, I can't ask for much more.
ClockworkZion wrote: With what little I know of the GW design studio it feels like the CSM updates aren't getting enough time to fully flesh out the ideas, enough budget to afford to do everything they plan on adding in, or maybe the issue is personnel related.
It's clear that there are one or more factors involved but I can't even hazard a guess to which.
One thing is for sure, a Black Templar style upgrade sprue would sort a lot of the problems and justify opening up more options to the army.
Well that and giving us access to any options we can take using HH models. I highly doubt I'll be the only one dipping between the two games for with the models after all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The more I think about it the more I feel like I'll be writing my own letter to the design team after the book comes out and we get some idea ehat the ehole image looks like. I have no hope for fixing this edition, but it'd be nice if even a fraction of it made it to the next one.
Let me know when you write that letter and I'll write another one too.
Terminators could get another sprue of weapon options in a Kill Team style upgrade when Elites comes out.
Chaos vehicles could all be updated using the new CADs from 30k with updated 40k chaos sprues.
Bikers just need a new kit, and ideally not one with a hodge-podge of options.
I would personally tell the design team: Stop giving Chaos random weapons. If enough options wont fit on the sprue to kit out the squad with a particular kind of load-out, then cut down on the options.
example, if you don't have enough fists/chainfists to kit out a squad of 5, cut out random junk like the chainaxe in favor of getting that extra chainfist.
I'd MUCH RATHER have a situation where Chosen/Terminators/Legionaries have base weapons (power sword, chainsword, power fist) and then have a sort of chaos infantry upgrade sprue that gives us more esoteric options (power maul, power axe, chain axe, chain fist, lightning claws). Would it satisfy everyone? No, of course not, but it would at least mean that when you get that original box of models, you're not stuck making a mess of different loadouts across the unit.
Togusa wrote: For those Chaos Players upset about the loss of equipment. Come on over to Heresy. We have LOADS of equipment options, build variation and just enough reactions to make the game interesting!
Silliness aside, I actually think Marines really shine in Heresy, compared to 40k were they're now more of a joke. There is so much build variation it's incredible. Our base level lieutenant has more wargear options than the entirety of the Chaos Character section from 40k!
Don't tempt me now.
Bruh, I've been enjoying this new launch and it is satiating my taste for Marines way more than 40K has. What I would say is it's worth the time and research to find out if HH2.0 is for you or not.
Big agree. The ability to customize your squads how you want, to go as cheap and straightforward and barebones, or as buffed up and overequipped as you want is a dream.
alextroy wrote: I’m having a hard time trying to decide if the amount of manufactured outrage...
It's not manufactured, and damn you for saying otherwise.
You walked into this thread, immediately dismissed all criticism as if it were nothing, and then proceeded to lecture everyone on how we should be responding.
Does anyone know what benefits a supreme commander gets in the supreme command detachment? Does he get his legion traits or just his dataslate and nothing else?
alextroy wrote: I’m having a hard time trying to decide if the amount of manufactured outrage or unwarranted surprise is greater in this thread. I know it is a Chaos thread, but so much salt for things that were rightfully expected has reached a new level.
Hmm, criticism or backlash at yet another terrible Chaos release is either manufactured or unwarranted. Does this mean we can characterize your posting as either manufactured trolling or unwarranted disregard for the bummer fact that the codex lost big chunks?
A lot of talk about letter writing- which is a good idea, even if it doesn't achieve the desired effect.
But a bit of advice:
In every instance where letter writing has worked it has been coordinated- people were asking for the same thing.
Eldar players got the Autarch load-out changed because THAT was the thing they agreed to ask for before the letter writing started.
So the problem with this book, from what I've read of this thread, is that there's SOOO much wrong, that it would probably be difficult to come up with the "Just One Thing" to rally behind and ask for.
But if people wanted to give it a shot, and try and figure out what the one change should be, it could move the agenda forward.
To try and bring this thread back onto something that looks like "on topic" I think that the Daemonkin keyword will have a list building requirement to take Marks of Chaos unlike the "Chaos Undivided" keyword that lets you choose an optional Mark. That or the unit will come with an automatic Mark of Chaos rolled in and you just take one for free.
I am not excited about the loss of wargear options, but I'm keeping my expectations low and stubbornly waiting to see the missing information before I get really frustrated.
And despite my "wait and see" approach, I am honestly frustrated. I've mentioned it before in this thread but if it comes in plastic for HH it should be an option for the army.
alextroy wrote: I’m having a hard time trying to decide if the amount of manufactured outrage or unwarranted surprise is greater in this thread. I know it is a Chaos thread, but so much salt for things that were rightfully expected has reached a new level.
Still, if you want change, then respectfully write GW and ask about the unreasonable changes they have made. They might reverse them like they did with the Aeldari Autaurk issue. Just be sure they are changes that don’t make sense rather than those you just don’t like. Toss too much at them and the reasonable are likely to get missed in the volume.
For example, I wouldn’t bother asking about the loss of Jump Packs for Chaos Lords. There is no current Chaos Lord with a Jump Pack model. So the CLwJP gets to hang out with all the other retired models like Space Marine Librarians or Drukari Archons not hoofing it around on foot.
I also wouldn’t waste your time asking after options that are not supported by the current kits. Warpsmiths don’t have combi-weapons because the current kit’s only option is Axe (included in base cost) or Thunder hammer.
You might be a bit saltly about not being allowed to double up special or heavy weapons in your Legionnarie squads, but you get to stand in line behind all the other troops squads that have been seriously limied in the most recent version of their codex, like Battle Sisters, Skitarii, Firewarriors, Harliquin Troupes, and Wyches to name just a few.
Instead, concentrate on the truly strange like:
Why can’t Chosen take Power Fist when the kits comes with multiple of them?
Why can’t Raptor Champions take 1 or 2 Lightning Claws? The box does have 5 pairs of them for the Warp Talon version of the build.
Good luck! You’ll need it you Traitor Heretics.
There also isn't a Chaos Lord model with a: power sword, powerfist, power axe, power maul, or "tainted" chainaxe either, but apparently all of those conversions are just fine. And as EviscerationPlague pointed out, we had a Chaos Lord model with a Jump Pack (and Lightning Claws too, BTW), but they curiously removed it just before this codex is going to be released. So we had a model that "fit the rules", when they wrote this codex. That tells me this is deliberate, not just a case of "no model, no rules".
Oh, and did I mention that the only Chaos Lord model currently available is a Black Legion Character? And making him anything besides Black Legion, or arming him with any of those weapons that I listed, requires cutting off parts of the model? Meanwhile, we have another Black Legion character, with a Jump Pack, who doesn't require a knife, either to make him a different Legion or arm him differently. This isn't "no model, no rules", it's "these conversions are OK, these aren't. Because REASONS, that's why".
And I'll definitely be writing gw about this . If they can fix their idiocy for Eldar, they can do it for us. It worked for them, it can work for us, if they think it will cost them money. Everyone is also forgetting that it worked for Death Guard and Thousand Sons when the Compendium was released and they were locked out of basically everything. They fixed that once the complaints came rolling in, and fast.
Hopefully, we'll get some honest reviews from the various "influencers" come Saturday as well. Everyone needs to make noise about this. There's no reason for us to just roll over and take this. Especially not because certain people just want us to. Like you.
While we're compiling lists of WtF, I wonder why all of the sudden Noise Marines can only have 1 Blast Master per 10 Marines. It's always been allowed to have 2 Blast Masters if you had at least 10 Marines. If you buy the upgrade sprue you get 5 Sonic Blasters and 1 Blast Master so to make a 10 Marine squad you need to buy 2 sprues. And guess what! You have 2 Blast Masters available to you to use. So why, all of the sudden are we limited to 1 Blast Master for 10 Noise Marines? It isn't due to spruage and it isn't no model no rules so why GW why?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: While we're compiling lists of WtF, I wonder why all of the sudden Noise Marines can only have 1 Blast Master per 10 Marines. It's always been allowed to have 2 Blast Masters if you had at least 10 Marines.
Well Legionaries can take 2 heavy weapons at 10, but not the same. The same applies to Noise Marines, only they don't have a second heavy weapon option.
... I don't think you know what those words mean. Not in that order at least.
The new Chaos Space Marines Codex has been done no dirtier than any other 9th Edition Codex. Watching yet another codex release filled with the same wailing and gnashing of teeth is tiring.
... I don't think you know what those words mean. Not in that order at least.
The new Chaos Space Marines Codex has been done no dirtier than any other 9th Edition Codex. Watching yet another codex release filled with the same wailing and gnashing of teeth is tiring.
Are you sure about that?
The Tyranids' Codex (power issue aside) is really well done and cool.
GSC has lots of options.
Loyalist Marines just keep getting more and more things.
Knights were differentiated and seem decently well-done.
CSM might not be the worst-done (might) but they're definitely not as good as others.
... I don't think you know what those words mean. Not in that order at least.
The new Chaos Space Marines Codex has been done no dirtier than any other 9th Edition Codex. Watching yet another codex release filled with the same wailing and gnashing of teeth is tiring.
Beyond whether this is true: That would be unjustified outrage. Not manufactured outrage.
Unless there's some really impressive stuff in the CSM codex that we haven't seen yet, the only 9th edition codexes that can be said to have been "done as dirty (or even dirtier)", are Orks and Necrons, IMHO. Though they've still got the chance to up Guard and Daemons. And they just keep rubbing more and more salt into Ork's wounds.
Daemons have so few options that it's harder to mess them up, at least in terms of gear. Not to say that that couldn't happen though.
As for the letter writing, I'll hold off until.after the codex is released, just to make sure that everything we've seen is final, and to wait for any for any erratas.
I wouldn't wait for errata before pointing out flaws. You want those corrected in the first errata like the mixing of the Autarck kit options. Waiting until after that reduces the Design Studios ability to correct it as an oversight rather than backtracking on a design decision. Just be sure to get and carefully review the Codex so that you don't put forth a partially incorrect complaint that will allow them to discount it as invalid or overblown.
... I don't think you know what those words mean. Not in that order at least.
The new Chaos Space Marines Codex has been done no dirtier than any other 9th Edition Codex. Watching yet another codex release filled with the same wailing and gnashing of teeth is tiring.
How many datasheets lost options out of other Codexes? Space Marines didn't. Their successors didn't. Astra Militarum lost penal legion a while back, but that was an 8th edition issue. Adeptus Mechanicus didn't. Custodes didn't. Imperial Knights didn't. Sororitas just became a thing, and while people wish there was a Jump Pack Canoness, otherwise they didn't really lose much of anything. So not a single Imperium faction has wholesale lost options.
Orks I think had some issues with Boyz, and their major issue has been buggies being nerfed by balance dataslates. And fliers, but that's a whole-game issue. Tau haven't lost any options, save Crisis Suits needing to split things up differently. Eldar and Harlequins haven't lost anything. Dark Eldar have lost some datasheets, but again that was an 8th edition thing. Tyranids had Genestealers get their squad size reduced, but otherwise haven't lost any major options. Necrons haven't lost much.
The only faction to have whole swathes of options yanked from their Codex from 8th edition to 9th edition have been Chaos Marines and Death Guard, with many units we used to be able to make suddenly yanked out from under us because of a sudden change in rules philosophy that didn't mesh well with the kits that they have sold to us.
Chaos Marines have been done dirtier than many other 9th edition codexes.
They've had options stripped again and again, baked down to limit the way we can actually build our units. You're a jerk and need to go troll in some other forum.
alextroy wrote: I wouldn't wait for errata before pointing out flaws. You want those corrected in the first errata like the mixing of the Autarck kit options. Waiting until after that reduces the Design Studios ability to correct it as an oversight rather than backtracking on a design decision. Just be sure to get and carefully review the Codex so that you don't put forth a partially incorrect complaint that will allow them to discount it as invalid or overblown.
That's pretty good advice, I think that I'll do that. Also, based on the last comment, I might mention the Death Guard codex as well, as it suffers from the same issues, though the focus will be on the CSM codex.
Looks like Word Bearers possessed can still get ap3. And with the option of reroll wounds on top of reroll hits (and 6s auto wound from a psychic power)? Could be spicy.
Hexagrammatic Wards is before the save roll now, but can also be used on any Word Bearer model - could save some helbrutes or venom crawlers from railguns, though.
drbored wrote: How many datasheets lost options out of other Codexes?
Space Marines didn't. Their successors didn't. Astra Militarum lost penal legion a while back, but that was an 8th edition issue. Adeptus Mechanicus didn't. Custodes didn't. Imperial Knights didn't. Sororitas just became a thing, and while people wish there was a Jump Pack Canoness, otherwise they didn't really lose much of anything. So not a single Imperium faction has wholesale lost options.
Orks I think had some issues with Boyz, and their major issue has been buggies being nerfed by balance dataslates. And fliers, but that's a whole-game issue. Tau haven't lost any options, save Crisis Suits needing to split things up differently. Eldar and Harlequins haven't lost anything. Dark Eldar have lost some datasheets, but again that was an 8th edition thing. Tyranids had Genestealers get their squad size reduced, but otherwise haven't lost any major options. Necrons haven't lost much.
Point of fact, Dark Eldar have lost options in every single edition and 9th was no exception.
In the most recent book, the Haemonculus lost the ability to take:
- Agoniser
- Venom Blade
- Flesh Gauntlet
- Mindphase Gauntlet
- Scissorhands
- Electrocorrosive Whip
- Liquifier Gun
- Hexrifle
As in, he lost every single option he had. That left DE with all of 2 HQs that had access to any options at all.
Don't get me wrong, though - I very much sympathise with you and other Chaos players staring at the ridiculous loss of options and the asinine changes to model loadouts. The loss of Jump Packs in particular cuts deep. Same goes for Lightning Claws - if nothing else, they're one of the coolest looking weapons and there's no good reason for removing them.
Hell, Chaos was one of those armies I'd often considered picking up if/when I could afford it. Buf if these changes stick . . . yeah, no.
drbored wrote: How many datasheets lost options out of other Codexes?
Space Marines didn't. Their successors didn't. Astra Militarum lost penal legion a while back, but that was an 8th edition issue. Adeptus Mechanicus didn't. Custodes didn't. Imperial Knights didn't. Sororitas just became a thing, and while people wish there was a Jump Pack Canoness, otherwise they didn't really lose much of anything. So not a single Imperium faction has wholesale lost options.
Orks I think had some issues with Boyz, and their major issue has been buggies being nerfed by balance dataslates. And fliers, but that's a whole-game issue. Tau haven't lost any options, save Crisis Suits needing to split things up differently. Eldar and Harlequins haven't lost anything. Dark Eldar have lost some datasheets, but again that was an 8th edition thing. Tyranids had Genestealers get their squad size reduced, but otherwise haven't lost any major options. Necrons haven't lost much.
Point of fact, Dark Eldar have lost options in every single edition and 9th was no exception.
In the most recent book, the Haemonculus lost the ability to take:
- Agoniser
- Venom Blade
- Flesh Gauntlet
- Mindphase Gauntlet
- Scissorhands
- Electrocorrosive Whip
- Liquifier Gun
- Hexrifle
As in, he lost every single option he had. That left DE with all of 2 HQs that had access to any options at all.
Don't get me wrong, though - I very much sympathise with you and other Chaos players staring at the ridiculous loss of options and the asinine changes to model loadouts. The loss of Jump Packs in particular cuts deep. Same goes for Lightning Claws - if nothing else, they're one of the coolest looking weapons and there's no good reason for removing them.
Hell, Chaos was one of those armies I'd often considered picking up if/when I could afford it. Buf if these changes stick . . . yeah, no.
Games Workshop is committed to sterilising the game as much as possible and basically getting it as close to almost pre-built games where unit options simply do not exist.
of course they are, the worse the game becomes, the more hype they can get for a new Edition and the more money they make with it
nothing new year, last year if an Edition GW is always trying as hard as possible to kill it, making money with whales only and than get everyone back with the big hype because now they will really try to make it game
RazorEdge wrote: I wonder if GW plans to kill their own games on stupidity and purpose.
Doubtful. Even the most cynical read wouldn't work on that because they'd lose money, not make it by driving people away. No number of new editions fixes that. Look at WFB trying to do a new edition and killing the game instead with 8th.
Yeah, everyone going off about "sterilizing the game" must not have been around for 5th edition. Talk about sterile codexes that sucked all the air and fun out of the game, all because Jervis Johnsons kid was easily confused by things that had rules but no models or options that didn't have parts in the kit, etc. We're still feeling the impacts of that today, but at least GW has put flavor back into the books rather than bland boring ass rules.
That being said, this codex is a mess. Power wise it might be okay, I understand the need for streamlining and pruning of certain things, but as others pointed out there is evidently zero consistency or standard that was applied in deciding which units/options were being cut or limited and which were not. Going through some of the leaked datasheets I'm getting a bit of whiplash trying to reconcile why one unit gets a full slate of melee options while the next only gets "accursed weapons" or why one unit gets access to upgrades that aren't in the kit but another loses upgrades that are. Its like two (or more) different people wrote the book and neither could agree on how it should be structured, so they split the datasheets in half and wrote them separately.
People in this thread are so hyper-focused on complaining they are ignoring the actual, brand new, never-before-seen (on this forum) leaks posted on this very page.
chaos0xomega wrote: Yeah, everyone going off about "sterilizing the game" must not have been around for 5th edition. Talk about sterile codexes that sucked all the air and fun out of the game, all because Jervis Johnsons kid was easily confused by things that had rules but no models or options that didn't have parts in the kit, etc. We're still feeling the impacts of that today, but at least GW has put flavor back into the books rather than bland boring ass rules.
I was around for 5th ed and I also remember it being a sterile nightmare (something plenty of 5e fans seem to just forget entirely). Just because the game was sterile then doesn't mean it's not sterile now - or returning to that kind of sterile mindset.
Raulengrin wrote: People in this thread are so hyper-focused on complaining they are ignoring the actual, brand new, never-before-seen (on this forum) leaks posted on this very page.
Incredible. This thread really should be locked.
Not quite but good try. Lots of the codex has leaked, but there is still a lot of unknown which absolutely justifies the continuation of the thread.
As far as hyper focused complaining goes - it's completely to be expected as the garbage is also hyper focused:
1. Legion traits - looking good
2. Mono faction/doctrine rules - nice
3. Stratagems/relics/warlord traits - looking real good, especially having many per subfaction which is much more than other codices get
4. Psychics/litanies - solid stuff going on
5. Statline updates - great, nice to see 2W finally happen, and T8 being breached is another first
6. Datasheets - utter garbage. 6 marine datasheets deleted (of which 5 have kits available), 2 cultists added. Options removed from a majority of units in a way that has nothing to do with whats in the kit
There's only 1 thing wrong with the codex, unfortunately it's a big un.
Raulengrin wrote: People in this thread are so hyper-focused on complaining they are ignoring the actual, brand new, never-before-seen (on this forum) leaks posted on this very page.
Incredible. This thread really should be locked.
Not quite but good try. Lots of the codex has leaked, but there is still a lot of unknown which absolutely justifies the continuation of the thread.
As far as hyper focused complaining goes - it's completely to be expected as the garbage is also hyper focused:
1. Legion traits - looking good
2. Mono faction/doctrine rules - nice
3. Stratagems/relics/warlord traits - looking real good, especially having many per subfaction which is much more than other codices get
4. Psychics/litanies - solid stuff going on
5. Statline updates - great, nice to see 2W finally happen, and T8 being breached is another first
6. Datasheets - utter garbage. 6 marine datasheets deleted (of which 5 have kits available), 2 cultists added. Options removed from a majority of units in a way that has nothing to do with whats in the kit
There's only 1 thing wrong with the codex, unfortunately it's a big un.
I get that and while I too am and was pissed about it, how many more pages do we need on loadouts being invalidated?
Raulengrin wrote: People in this thread are so hyper-focused on complaining they are ignoring the actual, brand new, never-before-seen (on this forum) leaks posted on this very page.
Incredible. This thread really should be locked.
Not quite but good try. Lots of the codex has leaked, but there is still a lot of unknown which absolutely justifies the continuation of the thread.
As far as hyper focused complaining goes - it's completely to be expected as the garbage is also hyper focused:
1. Legion traits - looking good
2. Mono faction/doctrine rules - nice
3. Stratagems/relics/warlord traits - looking real good, especially having many per subfaction which is much more than other codices get
4. Psychics/litanies - solid stuff going on
5. Statline updates - great, nice to see 2W finally happen, and T8 being breached is another first
6. Datasheets - utter garbage. 6 marine datasheets deleted (of which 5 have kits available), 2 cultists added. Options removed from a majority of units in a way that has nothing to do with whats in the kit
There's only 1 thing wrong with the codex, unfortunately it's a big un.
Yes, and point 6 has been talked about to absolute death. However, there are new leaks which people are ignoring in favour of continuing a several page long group rant about what the codex lost. Evidence suggests that these people aren't actually interested in rumours and should take their (otherwise very valid) concerns - all of which are very well documented in this thread - elsewhere.
Eldarain wrote: Cruel joke Word Bearers get cool rules in this mess.
I'm kind of wondering when they became the melee legion, however. Is it just on accident after bumping the world eaters to future stand alone status, or are they supposed to want to beat face all the time?
Yes, and point 6 has been talked about to absolute death. However, there are new leaks which people are ignoring in favour of continuing a several page long group rant about what the codex lost. Evidence suggests that these people aren't actually interested in rumours and should take their (otherwise very valid) concerns - all of which are very well documented in this thread - elsewhere.
So start a conversation about them rather than 100% being part of the problem you're complaining about.
Raulengrin wrote:Looks like Word Bearers possessed can still get ap3. And with the option of reroll wounds on top of reroll hits (and 6s auto wound from a psychic power)? Could be spicy.
Hexagrammatic Wards is before the save roll now, but can also be used on any Word Bearer model - could save some helbrutes or venom crawlers from railguns, though.
Voss wrote:
Eldarain wrote: Cruel joke Word Bearers get cool rules in this mess.
I'm kind of wondering when they became the melee legion, however. Is it just on accident after bumping the world eaters to future stand alone status, or are they supposed to want to beat face all the time?
Yes, and point 6 has been talked about to absolute death. However, there are new leaks which people are ignoring in favour of continuing a several page long group rant about what the codex lost. Evidence suggests that these people aren't actually interested in rumours and should take their (otherwise very valid) concerns - all of which are very well documented in this thread - elsewhere.
So start a conversation about them rather than 100% being part of the problem you're complaining about.
I was literally the second person to start a discussion about the aforementioned rumours.
RazorEdge wrote: There are still people for them 5th Edition 40k was the best Edition GW ever made.
Raulengrin wrote: the actual, brand new, never-before-seen (on this forum) leaks posted on this very page.
Who cares when most of the rest in the book is ghak.
Kind of my point. This is a CSM rumour thread. If you don't care about the rumours, go post somewhere else.
Well, they're Word Bearers leaks. I'm sure once some Word Bearers players get a look at them they'll go . They actually look pretty good. But if you don't play Word Bearers? You're just sitting here thinking: "When is someone going to leak some rules for [INSERT LEGION HERE]?".
Datasheets that we haven't seen before would probably get everyone going. But it's completely up in the air whether the reactions will be positive or negative the way they've been going.
Eldarain wrote: Cruel joke Word Bearers get cool rules in this mess.
I'm kind of wondering when they became the melee legion, however. Is it just on accident after bumping the world eaters to future stand alone status, or are they supposed to want to beat face all the time?
Yes, and point 6 has been talked about to absolute death. However, there are new leaks which people are ignoring in favour of continuing a several page long group rant about what the codex lost. Evidence suggests that these people aren't actually interested in rumours and should take their (otherwise very valid) concerns - all of which are very well documented in this thread - elsewhere.
So start a conversation about them rather than 100% being part of the problem you're complaining about.
I think GW realised 'being really brave' in a game where everyone is already really brave and fanatic wasn't really meaningful and so went for something a bit different. In The Horus Heresy, Word Bearers gain some bonuses to close combat and have a lot of close quarters focussed upgrades and units.
Eldarain wrote: Cruel joke Word Bearers get cool rules in this mess.
I really like the 'feth you, Hammerhead' strat.
Yeah. Would be really nice on something big and nasty. Y'know, the typical target for a Hammerhead. Like, a REALLY BIG DAEMON ENGINE. Have we seen any of those recently?
Master of the Union - Solid.
Omen - Already seen.
Exalted Possession - Already seen. Still afraid of that 4++ vs. ranged as I'm not sure who doesn't have a basic 4++ to start with (except for DPs who we've now found out about getting 5++/4++ ranged).
Baleful Icon - Hello there. Can I buy you a drink? I'm dreaming of a deathball list that keeps everything within 6" of a big fat based HQ.
Profane Zeal - Already seen.
Eightfold-cursed crozius - Fantastic name of course. Looks to be +1AP, +1D, auto wounds with hoops vs. a normal Crozius, seems very good, but unlikely to be a good face delivery method for it.
Hexagrammatic Ward - Situational but good.
Malevolent Covenent - Good, but that deny the witch test wording is horrible as I suspect you'll have to debate with TOs whether it works on a lot of 4+ strats.
Apostle of the Dark Council - Need to see the DA and the new cultist HQ datasheets.
Revered Hosts - Priced in a very Chaos way, just a little bit too much to get used in many situations I think.
Dark Pact - Solid.
Still waiting on a full picture of each legion, as what you usually find is they each have 1 good trait/relic/strat (that don't work with each other) and the trait/relic/strat they would have synergy with is in another legion.
RazorEdge wrote: There are still people for them 5th Edition 40k was the best Edition GW ever made.
which does not contradict anything
it just because GW was never able to come up with something better does not mean it was an objectively good game, just that the other versions were worse
same way 3.5 was the best CSM Codex does not mean it was the best 40k Codex ever made, or that there were no problems
it just means all other CSM books were worse
the same way 6th Warhammer Fantasy is often considered the best, and people coming up and start to list all the flaws the game had back than
but "it was not perfect" is not a good counter argument to "the other versions were worse"
PS: a reason why 5th was the best is that GW stopped to support the games which opened up the people for the common use of house rules and scenarios
and it was the last Edition the Ork Codex actually was "orkish"
RazorEdge wrote: There are still people for them 5th Edition 40k was the best Edition GW ever made.
which does not contradict anything it just because GW was never able to come up with something better does not mean it was an objectively good game, just that the other versions were worse
same way 3.5 was the best CSM Codex does not mean it was the best 40k Codex ever made, or that there were no problems it just means all other CSM books were worse
the same way 6th Warhammer Fantasy is often considered the best, and people coming up and start to list all the flaws the game had back than
but "it was not perfect" is not a good counter argument to "the other versions were worse"
PS: a reason why 5th was the best is that GW stopped to support the games which opened up the people for the common use of house rules and scenarios and it was the last Edition the Ork Codex actually was "orkish"
That Ork Codex was a 4th ed codex though. So by that metric, 4th ed was best. 5th ed wasn't great, imo. That was when all the dumb Ward stuff popped up, like the Grey Knights and their silly walker. Necrons got dunked on too because of the changes to the vehicle glance rule.
Yeah, the fact that we haven't yet seen any super doctrines - or even references to them - in writing is making me a bit nervous.
Baleful Icon feels like it would have been in every list before Nephilim. But now that relics and WLTs cost so much more (relative to your starting pool), I'm not sure a relic which just won't work against some armies (shooting armies and armies that don't rely on rerolls) is going to be quite worth it.
Also, hexagrammatic wards is going to be hilarious on Tzeentch helbrutes which already reduce the damage of the first failed save per turn to 0. Takes three railgun to kill one helbrute that way.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: That Ork Codex was a 4th ed codex though. So by that metric, 4th ed was best.
yeah, this is were the famous "written with the upcoming Edition in mind" excuse for mistakes came from
I think 4th by itself was better, but it was nearly impossible to adjust minor errors because "not official", were the house-ruled / comped version of 5th that was around in some region was more fun (mainly until the Daemon Codex was released, from that point forward it became worse)
I'm going to guess that super doctrines did not make it in. Reasoning being that that level of subfaction support is reserved for codex supplements. But it's ok because Chaos gets daemon weapons instead.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: I'm going to guess that super doctrines did not make it in. Reasoning being that that level of subfaction support is reserved for codex supplements. But it's ok because Chaos gets daemon weapons instead.
In terms of layers of rules it could very well be that marks take the spot of super docs.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: I'm going to guess that super doctrines did not make it in. Reasoning being that that level of subfaction support is reserved for codex supplements. But it's ok because Chaos gets daemon weapons instead.
In terms of layers of rules it could very well be that marks take the spot of super docs.
Except that Marks cost points and can't be applied to everything, and loyalist super doctrines are free and do apply to everything (ok, except servitors).
Cultist commune rules, which I don’t think have been seen before in this detail?
Not sure how they’ll get to where they need to be without dying horribly, but the buffs look cool, and not just for cultists. In fact, they’re probably better buffing marines than cultists.
Cultist commune rules, which I don’t think have been seen before in this detail?
Not sure how they’ll get to where they need to be without dying horribly, but the buffs look cool, and not just for cultists. In fact, they’re probably better buffing marines than cultists.
article wrote:The Dark Commune itself will automatically pass any morale checks while the Iconarch still stands.
Immediately followed by Rules text block: While this unit contains a Cult Demagogue... it autopasses morale checks.
Sigh.
Anyway, after that mistake, we see that the icon gives leadership and reroll ones for all attacks, while the prayer gives rerolls melee attacks. Great, this isn't a mistake by WarCom, the unit itself just anti-synergizes its redundant abilities.
Nothing on how it even survives on the battlefield long enough to hand out buffs, so... cool, I guess.
Cultist commune rules, which I don’t think have been seen before in this detail?
Not sure how they’ll get to where they need to be without dying horribly, but the buffs look cool, and not just for cultists. In fact, they’re probably better buffing marines than cultists.
article wrote:The Dark Commune itself will automatically pass any morale checks while the Iconarch still stands.
Immediately followed by Rules text block: While this unit contains a Cult Demagogue... it autopasses morale checks.
Sigh.
Anyway, after that mistake, we see that the icon gives leadership and reroll ones for all attacks, while the prayer gives rerolls melee attacks. Great, this isn't a mistake by WarCom, the unit itself just anti-synergizes its redundant abilities.
Nothing on how it even survives on the battlefield long enough to hand out buffs, so... cool, I guess.
he atleast we now got a cult HQ, allowing those of us with R&H armies to avoid power armor.....
oh wait, we can't realistically
atleast the unit has a psyker and buff auras that affect not only cultists but also normal legionaires...
Dark Commune looks fun.
I'd say powerful - but as said, I'm not sure how it survives being insta-nuked from the table if it lacks a "hides behind cultists" ability.
From the dataslate WarCom article and attributed to Robin Cruddace:
Tyranids and Aeldari have certainly been dominating the battlefields of the tournament scene over recent weeks, so we’ve made a few updates to reduce the oppressiveness of these factions and level the playing field without invalidating any player’s collection of miniatures
Was he on his two week holiday when the CSM codex was getting written?
Also, seeing the Necrons CORE changes makes you wonder at their ability to learn from their mistakes. Restricting it on DAEMONKIN is probably going to go the same was as restricting it on DESTROYER units.
I like the concept of the Dark Commune, but I think they went overboard a little on the models. I would have preferred something a little more "subtle". Having a congregation of satanic (Chaotic?) mortal priests giving out buffs is a nice idea though, and would go great with Word Bearers or a Tchernobog / Blood themed army.
I love that they give the ability to autopass morale to a unit with a total of (I'm guessing) 2 T3 ablative wounds. I hope they remembered to figure this powerful ability into their pts cost!
Raulengrin wrote: People in this thread are so hyper-focused on complaining they are ignoring the actual, brand new, never-before-seen (on this forum) leaks posted on this very page.
Incredible. This thread really should be locked.
That's happened a few times really. The conversation will skim right over the actual leaks in favor of complaining.
I guess it’s sort of that way with any response. The people who really hate something, really want to voice their opinion on why they hate it. The normal or mildly good stuff gets no reaction. The great stuff gets it’s heroes. I am a prof., student response evaluations are exactly the same.
Raulengrin wrote: People in this thread are so hyper-focused on complaining they are ignoring the actual, brand new, never-before-seen (on this forum) leaks posted on this very page.
Incredible. This thread really should be locked.
Worth noting half of these "never seen before" leaks were already visible in the google doc linked in the OP
As for the dark commune... I guess it fills a niche that wasn't there before ? Now if someone wants to make a full cultist army (but not LATD) they can.
Whelp, guess I'll start grieving for our super doctrines. But I wonder: what was the issue with them ? Was it too strong ? To close to the loyalist rules ? No longer in line with the design guideline for 9th codex ?
Guess we'll never know. And in the meantime "spiky doctrines" are inferior to the doctrines they were based on.
Gordon Shumway wrote: I guess it’s sort of that way with any response. The people who really hate something, really want to voice their opinion on why they hate it. The normal or mildly good stuff gets no reaction. The great stuff gets it’s heroes. I am a prof., student response evaluations are exactly the same.
Shame because it looks like there is a LOT of good in this codex, just some wtfery about wargear that has everyone hyperfocused.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Has anyone seen any data sheets regarding our terminator HQs? I'm wondering if/how much they've changed between 8th and 9th.
I've been on the look out but nothing yet. Same for the Chaos Lord, the various wargear lists units can access and a number of other things.
Gordon Shumway wrote: I guess it’s sort of that way with any response. The people who really hate something, really want to voice their opinion on why they hate it. The normal or mildly good stuff gets no reaction. The great stuff gets it’s heroes. I am a prof., student response evaluations are exactly the same.
Shame because it looks like there is a LOT of good in this codex, just some wtfery about wargear that has everyone hyperfocused.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Has anyone seen any data sheets regarding our terminator HQs? I'm wondering if/how much they've changed between 8th and 9th.
I've been on the look out but nothing yet. Same for the Chaos Lord, the various wargear lists units can access and a number of other things.
I've seen some of the other stuff in the Codex and I'm just not impressed. There's not really anything praise-worthy about the same bundle of over-complex layering of rules and stratagems that have painted 9th edition up to this point.
And here's the thing, if GW wanted to make the game more like AoS, where it's less about buying the individual weapon options and more about having pre-built units, I would be ok with that. That's not an issue. It's the inconsistency that's the issue. They're in this weird half-way point of flattening melee weapons into accursed weapons but they handle it differently from datasheet to datasheet.
One of the other reasons I"m focused on equipment is because THAT'S HOW YOU BUILD THE FETHING MODELS.
All the other things, the legion traits, the stratagems, are all mutable rules that don't change the bits that come in the box. You don't get an extra 'auspex scanner' bit in your box that you have to build your model with in order to use the stratagem.
Gordon Shumway wrote: I guess it’s sort of that way with any response. The people who really hate something, really want to voice their opinion on why they hate it. The normal or mildly good stuff gets no reaction. The great stuff gets it’s heroes. I am a prof., student response evaluations are exactly the same.
What do you mean by "good" stuff? Do you mean the powerful stuff that will work well in games? The abilities and units that will perform well in a competitive environment? The hard-as-nails choices that will be the bane of many'a table top*?
If you do, understand that the people despairing over this Codex are not doing so due to a lack of power, or because it doesn't seem competitive. For many of us this isn't even a tertiary concern. We're concerned about the soul of our army being stripped away even further than it has been in the past, where we get lazy copycat 'Chapter Tactics' rules, nonsensical wargear limitations and restrictions, and daft unit composition choices that leave us scratching our collective heads (ie. non-dedicated Possessed, weirdly regimented units of Mutant Rabble, split Cultist units, no Traitor Guard units, a Daemon Prince datasheet that will be replaced in 6 months, etc.).
Like some of have said: I'm sure this Codex will be plenty powerful, but who cares if it's not really Chaos anymore?
*Until GW feths it up with another balance dataslate.
“Good stuff” means different things to different players. Some are mostly into the hobby of painting, some are waacs, some are beer and pretzel players, some are thematic players. Some don’t play at all, and just like the forums. My point about reactions isn’t different for any of those. It’s just the way people react.
Gordon Shumway wrote: I guess it’s sort of that way with any response. The people who really hate something, really want to voice their opinion on why they hate it. The normal or mildly good stuff gets no reaction. The great stuff gets it’s heroes. I am a prof., student response evaluations are exactly the same.
What do you mean by "good" stuff? Do you mean the powerful stuff that will work well in games? The abilities and units that will perform well in a competitive environment?
Quite frankly I'm not even expecting it to be like 6th edition Tyranids where the codex was dog gak but had a competitive build. I think it's just gonna be flat overall.
Gordon Shumway wrote: I guess it’s sort of that way with any response. The people who really hate something, really want to voice their opinion on why they hate it. The normal or mildly good stuff gets no reaction. The great stuff gets it’s heroes. I am a prof., student response evaluations are exactly the same.
exactly, random casual players aren't going to make an account on some random forum to say something neutral like "new codex seems interesting, some good stuff and some bad stuff, curious to actually read through it!"
Gordon Shumway wrote: I guess it’s sort of that way with any response. The people who really hate something, really want to voice their opinion on why they hate it. The normal or mildly good stuff gets no reaction. The great stuff gets it’s heroes. I am a prof., student response evaluations are exactly the same.
exactly, random casual players aren't going to make an account on some random forum to say something neutral like "new codex seems interesting, some good stuff and some bad stuff, curious to actually read through it!"
Well, for my part, the new codex seems interesting with some good stuff and bad stuff. I'm curious to actually read it.
I certainly don't like the kit-restricted loadouts (edit: just realised that my profile pic is even a converted Lord with Jump Pack!), but this wouldn't be the first time I've ripped arms off models between editions.
Cheex wrote: Well, for my part, the new codex seems interesting with some good stuff and bad stuff. I'm curious to actually read it.
I certainly don't like the kit-restricted loadouts (edit: just realised that my profile pic is even a converted Lord with Jump Pack!), but this wouldn't be the first time I've ripped arms off models between editions.
You certainly aren’t going to get any clicks or subscribers with that attitude, Mr.!
So, thinking about some of the restricted loadouts: I understand where they're coming from. They want players to be able to pick up a Codex, think "hey that unit is cool", and log on to GW.com to buy it.
The problem is those of us who would like to keep using older models. Would people feel more comfortable if the option to take a jump pack on a Chaos Lord was added to Legends?
I don't mean as a separate unit datasheet like they did with Lords on Bikes or Steeds, but rather as an extra wargear option like with Sonic Dreadnoughts (see Imperial Armour Legends).
That would allow casual players to use the Chaos Lord model that was only recently rotated out, and events would need to specifically disallow Legends to remove it.
I’m not sure moving it to legends will alleviate the concerns of those who are upset. Maybe if it were a general option as a relic? Of course with added spunk beyond just regular rules. My favorite mini is my lord on a steed, so I get it.
No. Legends is basically the same as not existing.
Further, its ridiculously unfluffy to remove it. Angels of Death descending on wings of fire is a fundamental concept to the brand. There's zero reason to take that away just from the ones with spikes on, doubly so because on of the 'spikes on' legions doubles down on that identity.
Axlbush wrote: What's this errata to the iron warriors trait? Isn't it usually the same as the imperial fist one??
This does nothing, because the codex will be released later than the balance dataslate, and you are supposed to use the latest released rules. So, nice one GW
Gordon Shumway wrote: I guess it’s sort of that way with any response. The people who really hate something, really want to voice their opinion on why they hate it. The normal or mildly good stuff gets no reaction. The great stuff gets it’s heroes. I am a prof., student response evaluations are exactly the same.
exactly, random casual players aren't going to make an account on some random forum to say something neutral like "new codex seems interesting, some good stuff and some bad stuff, curious to actually read through it!"
Axlbush wrote: What's this errata to the iron warriors trait? Isn't it usually the same as the imperial fist one??
This does nothing, because the codex will be released later than the balance dataslate, and you are supposed to use the latest released rules. So, nice one GW
At this point it was just way to late to change the codex proper.
Cheex wrote: So, thinking about some of the restricted loadouts: I understand where they're coming from. They want players to be able to pick up a Codex, think "hey that unit is cool", and log on to GW.com to buy it.
The problem is those of us who would like to keep using older models. Would people feel more comfortable if the option to take a jump pack on a Chaos Lord was added to Legends?
I don't mean as a separate unit datasheet like they did with Lords on Bikes or Steeds, but rather as an extra wargear option like with Sonic Dreadnoughts (see Imperial Armour Legends).
That would allow casual players to use the Chaos Lord model that was only recently rotated out, and events would need to specifically disallow Legends to remove it.
That's the claim, but the kit restrictions do not match the kits.. So if that's the claim, it's false. Means that's not what they're doing.
Gordon Shumway wrote: I’m not sure moving it to legends will alleviate the concerns of those who are upset. Maybe if it were a general option as a relic? Of course with added spunk beyond just regular rules. My favorite mini is my lord on a steed, so I get it.
I know this does not mean much, but i asked this on Facebook and GW PR team said they forward it.
I am curious to how the codex looks when i have it in hand. I think there are some interesting builds in it, it just sucks that GW changed their approach for 40k from modeling your dudes to mono build.
Loosing options=models is always bad especially if it is only partially applied.
Power is in constant flux so I do not care.
Gordon Shumway wrote: I’m not sure moving it to legends will alleviate the concerns of those who are upset. Maybe if it were a general option as a relic? Of course with added spunk beyond just regular rules. My favorite mini is my lord on a steed, so I get it.
I know this does not mean much, but i asked this on Facebook and GW PR team said they forward it.
I am curious to how the codex looks when i have it in hand. I think there are some interesting builds in it, it just sucks that GW changed their approach for 40k from modeling your dudes to mono build.
Loosing options=models is always bad especially if it is only partially applied.
Power is in constant flux so I do not care.
Agreed, the actual efficacy of models is always going to be up in the air, and I feel like, despite everything, most people in dakkadakka seem to understand that when we complain about GW's decisions.
I'll be sending more e-mails after the book is actually in hand and I can go over it with a fine-toothed comb. I really want to put the pressure on GW to figure out what they're doing with this faction so we can build our models without having to worry about what might be stripped away next edition.
Cheex wrote: So, thinking about some of the restricted loadouts: I understand where they're coming from. They want players to be able to pick up a Codex, think "hey that unit is cool", and log on to GW.com to buy it.
The problem is that this simply isn't true - plenty of models have access to weapons they don't have so it seems strange to suggest this is the intent of GW. Other models don't have access to equipment which is literally in their boxes. Noise Marines for example can't take two Blast Masters - why? To get enough Sonic Blasters for a whole unit you'll need to buy two upgrade packs - so you're gonna end up with more than one Blast Master.
There's other bizarre stuff as well - Raptors can take two of the same special weapon - so it's acceptable in the minds of some GW defenders to stock up on two Plasma Guns in a Raptor Squad but not a CSM Squad? Why can't I stock up on two Chosen kits to give my unit four Combi Plasmas then? You start to see the issue - there is no consistency.
People acting like this is a good or sensible change have to either be shills or living in the fantasy world of 'new is always good'.
Some part of me does believe there is an effort on GWs part to force people to buy new models to replace old ones.
They should've just made this dumb character the new 'CSM Lord with Jump Pack'. I mean how many people actually bought Haarken to field him as Haarken the jobber? Would anyone have been upset if Haarken was no longer a unique figure, but a generic character designed for Raptor Heavy armies?
blood reaper wrote: Would anyone have been upset if Haarken was no longer a unique figure, but a generic character designed for Raptor Heavy armies?
Yes. Without any doubt in my mind.
Was there any outrage when Grukk was denoted to generic warboss or when Kranon or what the name of that Crimson Slaughter guy became generic Chaos Lord with three relics you weren't allowed to field? Nobody cares about Haarken as a character.
blood reaper wrote: Would anyone have been upset if Haarken was no longer a unique figure, but a generic character designed for Raptor Heavy armies?
Yes. Without any doubt in my mind.
Was there any outrage when Grukk was denoted to generic warboss or when Kranon or what the name of that Crimson Slaughter guy became generic Chaos Lord with three relics you weren't allowed to field? Nobody cares about Haarken as a character.
Kranon never had specific character rules IIRC - not even in the Crimson Slaughter Codex.
blood reaper wrote: Would anyone have been upset if Haarken was no longer a unique figure, but a generic character designed for Raptor Heavy armies?
Yes. Without any doubt in my mind.
Was there any outrage when Grukk was denoted to generic warboss or when Kranon or what the name of that Crimson Slaughter guy became generic Chaos Lord with three relics you weren't allowed to field? Nobody cares about Haarken as a character.
Kranon never had specific character rules IIRC - not even in the Crimson Slaughter Codex.
Technically he had his own datasheet in the pamphlet that came with the Dark Vengence Box, but overall you're right.
blood reaper wrote: Would anyone have been upset if Haarken was no longer a unique figure, but a generic character designed for Raptor Heavy armies?
Yes. Without any doubt in my mind.
You're really going to have to explain this one. The only thing I remember hearing about Haarken was people saying "oh man, it's so cool that Night Lords are getting a special character, he can lead my fluffy rapt... oh wait, he's Black Legion?!?"
Some random schmuck invented for fething Vigilus is not going to have the largest fan club
blood reaper wrote: Would anyone have been upset if Haarken was no longer a unique figure, but a generic character designed for Raptor Heavy armies?
Yes. Without any doubt in my mind.
You're really going to have to explain this one. The only thing I remember hearing about Haarken was people saying "oh man, it's so cool that Night Lords are getting a special character, he can lead my fluffy rapt... oh wait, he's Black Legion?!?"
Some random schmuck invented for fething Vigilus is not going to have the largest fan club
Not just that, a badly written charachter (doubly so since his spear wasn't even a melee weapon) AND a Black Legion charachter, which well... let's just say that there are far more liked subfactions in CSM than Black Legion.
blood reaper wrote: Would anyone have been upset if Haarken was no longer a unique figure, but a generic character designed for Raptor Heavy armies?
Yes. Without any doubt in my mind.
You're really going to have to explain this one. The only thing I remember hearing about Haarken was people saying "oh man, it's so cool that Night Lords are getting a special character, he can lead my fluffy rapt... oh wait, he's Black Legion?!?"
Some random schmuck invented for fething Vigilus is not going to have the largest fan club
Not just that, a badly written charachter (doubly so since his spear wasn't even a melee weapon) AND a Black Legion charachter, which well... let's just say that there are far more liked subfactions in CSM than Black Legion.
Also it was really sad and embarassing, his entire schtick, the whole world-claiming thing with driving a spear into the ground upon planetfall and claiming it'll fall within 80 days or something, failed to work the very first time he showed up.
I wouldn't mind him being gone, it was really kind of pathetic. I guess fitting for Abaddon's herald.
Also it was really sad and embarassing, his entire schtick, the whole world-claiming thing with driving a spear into the ground upon planetfall and claiming it'll fall within 80 days or something, failed to work the very first time he showed up.
I wouldn't mind him being gone, it was really kind of pathetic. I guess fitting for Abaddon's herald.
TBF to abbadon, they atleast now somewhat wrote him out of his role and name "Failbadon the (h)armless". However the lackluster writing for him in the past 2 decades more or less still taints his "prestige".
Harkon needed to be probably the quota special HQ, which is a shame because a plastic jumppack lord with options along the lines of the Terminator lord would've sold like oven fresh bread.
Ok, WHACKY IDEA folks: just allow the Harkon model to be built as either Harkon or a Chaos Lord with a Jump Pack. That way, anyone who wants to use Harkon (all three of them) can have him. And everyone else, can have a Jump Lord.
I've been over this about a hundred times, but again: it is far easier to convert the Harkon model into a Jump Lord from another Legion, and with different weapons, than the Obsideus Mallex model. Harkon has the same basic construction of standard CSM infantry models, IE: Legionaries, Chosen, Raptors, Warp Talons, and Havocs. You can use any arms, weapons, shoulders pads, or heads from those kits with it with no problem. All you need is glue. Obsideus Mallex? Not so much. If it's ok by gw for people to use the Obsideus Mallex model as a Chaos Lord in an Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, or Night Lords army, and arm it with all of those weapons that don't come in the kit, then the same should apply to the Harkon model.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ok, WHACKY IDEA folks: just allow the Harkon model to be built as either Harkon or a Chaos Lord with a Jump Pack. That way, anyone who wants to use Harkon (all three of them) can have him. And everyone else, can have a Jump Lord.
I've been over this about a hundred times, but again: it is far easier to convert the Harkon model into a Jump Lord from another Legion, and with different weapons, than the Obsideus Mallex model. Harkon has the same basic construction of standard CSM infantry models, IE: Legionaries, Chosen, Raptors, Warp Talons, and Havocs. You can use any arms, weapons, shoulders pads, or heads from those kits with it with no problem. All you need is glue. Obsideus Mallex? Not so much. If it's ok by gw for people to use the Obsideus Mallex model as a Chaos Lord in an Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, or Night Lords army, and arm it with all of those weapons that don't come in the kit, then the same should apply to the Harkon model.
Yeah I didn't explain myself super clearly. I'm not saying we remove Harkon from the lore. I'm saying we keep him in the lore, but make his rules generic - i.e., he is no longer tied to the Black Legion - but his original rules were barely BL tied anyways!
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ok, WHACKY IDEA folks: just allow the Harkon model to be built as either Harkon or a Chaos Lord with a Jump Pack. That way, anyone who wants to use Harkon (all three of them) can have him. And everyone else, can have a Jump Lord.
I bought Harkon 'cause I liked the model. Never had any intention of fielding him as Harkon.
" snide defenders will say. But yet for whatever reason, the Chaos Terminator Lord can take it - even though his model doesn't have it. He can also take a Combi-Flamer, yet he doesn't have that either. The same goes for the Chaos Sorcerer.
. The only thing that saved it was 
. They actually look pretty good. But if you don't play Word Bearers? You're just sitting here thinking: "When is someone going to leak some rules for [INSERT LEGION HERE]?".
