you give them for things you find decent, aka the decent 30k ruleset, and cut them where they are not doing decent, like the new CSM codex. That is far more productive.
.
Bro, it all goes in the same kitty. You give them nothing. This utter abortion of a codex deserves no praise whatsoever. If I ever come into possession of one I will piss on it to make sure the stink of my contempt runs foetid through every page.
you give them for things you find decent, aka the decent 30k ruleset, and cut them where they are not doing decent, like the new CSM codex. That is far more productive.
.
Bro, it all goes in the same kitty. You give them nothing. This utter abortion of a codex deserves no praise whatsoever. If I ever come into possession of one I will piss on it to make sure the stink of my contempt runs foetid through every page.
Hmm, I'm not sure which god is speaking there, if you'd said crap on it - nurgle, if you'd said you'd use it.... excitedly - slaanesh, destroy it - khorne, scribble all over it, make amendments and post it back - Tzeentch. Piss though, maybe chaos undivided?
you give them for things you find decent, aka the decent 30k ruleset, and cut them where they are not doing decent, like the new CSM codex. That is far more productive.
.
Bro, it all goes in the same kitty. You give them nothing. This utter abortion of a codex deserves no praise whatsoever. If I ever come into possession of one I will piss on it to make sure the stink of my contempt runs foetid through every page.
Hmm, I'm not sure which god is speaking there, if you'd said crap on it - nurgle, if you'd said you'd use it.... excitedly - slaanesh, destroy it - khorne, scribble all over it, make amendments and post it back - Tzeentch. Piss though, maybe chaos undivided?
well, to me it seems non alone is the solution to the problem this clusterfeth of a codex is.
So his suggestion being said undivided attention may do the trick.
chances are however that the only thing that will be happening is a legion supplement style entry this time only legal for 3 months.
you give them for things you find decent, aka the decent 30k ruleset, and cut them where they are not doing decent, like the new CSM codex. That is far more productive.
.
Bro, it all goes in the same kitty. You give them nothing. This utter abortion of a codex deserves no praise whatsoever. If I ever come into possession of one I will piss on it to make sure the stink of my contempt runs foetid through every page.
Hmm, I'm not sure which god is speaking there, if you'd said crap on it - nurgle, if you'd said you'd use it.... excitedly - slaanesh, destroy it - khorne, scribble all over it, make amendments and post it back - Tzeentch. Piss though, maybe chaos undivided?
The Chaos Gods move in mysterious ways.
Seriously though, this book is not worth anyone's time. If that is the contempt GW are showing for CSMs and their players then you have to respond in kind.
you give them for things you find decent, aka the decent 30k ruleset, and cut them where they are not doing decent, like the new CSM codex. That is far more productive. .
Bro, it all goes in the same kitty. You give them nothing. This utter abortion of a codex deserves no praise whatsoever. If I ever come into possession of one I will piss on it to make sure the stink of my contempt runs foetid through every page.
Hmm, I'm not sure which god is speaking there, if you'd said crap on it - nurgle, if you'd said you'd use it.... excitedly - slaanesh, destroy it - khorne, scribble all over it, make amendments and post it back - Tzeentch. Piss though, maybe chaos undivided?
Nah, Malal.
So can someone give a summary of why the CSM is bad? I mean, I was kind of expecting it because CSM have not had a decent codex since about...3.5, but how did GW done goofed this time?
you give them for things you find decent, aka the decent 30k ruleset, and cut them where they are not doing decent, like the new CSM codex. That is far more productive.
.
Bro, it all goes in the same kitty. You give them nothing. This utter abortion of a codex deserves no praise whatsoever. If I ever come into possession of one I will piss on it to make sure the stink of my contempt runs foetid through every page.
Hmm, I'm not sure which god is speaking there, if you'd said crap on it - nurgle, if you'd said you'd use it.... excitedly - slaanesh, destroy it - khorne, scribble all over it, make amendments and post it back - Tzeentch. Piss though, maybe chaos undivided?
The Chaos Gods move in mysterious ways.
Seriously though, this book is not worth anyone's time. If that is the contempt GW are showing for CSMs and their players then you have to respond in kind.
In all honesty, I've been saving for the chaos release, passed on the knights box in prep for this but the most I might get is the possessed so I have a legal sized unit (due to having the 2 greater already), but that's it. In honesty I'm enjoying Sigmar more atm and a long-delayed want to get into titanicus, either feels a better use of time and money.
Seriously though, this book is not worth anyone's time. If that is the contempt GW are showing for CSMs and their players then you have to respond in kind.
Understandable, as will i, and i agree that it is not worth anyones time, certainly not for the price GW asks nowadays for a codex that is up to date maybee 3 months.
And i think a lot of CSM players will just either sit it out... as we do since 2 years in 9th (or more if you count the wound debacle.) or jump ship to better rulesets including heresy or other games and companies entirely.
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ClockworkZion wrote: Since everyone is spending pages kicking the codex over and over I assume there have been no more leaks?
isn't there a link with the full dex somewhere here in this very thread?
It's a matter of time now though, people are clearly in possession of them and have itchy trigger fingers, worst case we need to wait until Saturday. It'll be interesting how honest the various reviews will be, or rather if anyone has conflicting opinions.
So can someone give a summary of why the CSM is bad? I mean, I was kind of expecting it because CSM have not had a decent codex since about...3.5, but how did GW done goofed this time?
Objectively, the codex is fine from a purely power level perspective - there are some strong things in there and if you are only interested in tourney results this codex looks stronger than the last and will likely have a better average win rate.
Subjectively it stinks. Cult troops other than noise marines are cut. Character customisation is cut. Chosen and Terminators have a fraction of their old options. Unit datasheets have the awesome combo of inconsistency and more restrictive selections than other codices before this.
Some lovely inconsistencies/a WYSIWYG nightmare:
Spoiler:
Depending on datasheet, a chainaxe might be a chainaxe, heavy chainaxe, tainted chainaxe, or an accursed weapon.
Depending on datasheet, a power weapon might be a power-sword/axe/maul, or it might be an accursed weapon.
Depending on datasheet, a powerfist might be a powerfist, or it might be an accursed weapon.
Depending on datasheet, you might have access to special and/or heavy weapons - sometimes you can freely pick, other times you cannot take duplicates.
Especially Chosen are an annoyance. Their special rule that allows them to profit from all wantons is useless bs as you will seldom come to profit from it. And why is this rule gated behind a restriction anyway? They cannot profile from Wanton Destruction under any circumstance. Their baseline profile is a joke, legionaries with +1W and Ld for 7 pts more. Accursed Weapons are ridiculous in a meta in which D2-3 is required to kill anything reliably. They even removed the ,get an additional trait‘ rule from the playtest version.
They should have had better bolter profiles with AP -2 at least, similar to sternguard vets or something…
Dudeface wrote: It's a matter of time now though, people are clearly in possession of them and have itchy trigger fingers, worst case we need to wait until Saturday. It'll be interesting how honest the various reviews will be, or rather if anyone has conflicting opinions.
I expect a fully or largely positive review from people sent the codex.
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charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Especially Chosen are an annoyance. Their special rule that allows them to profit from all wantons is useless bs as you will seldom come to profit from it. And why is this rule gated behind a restriction anyway? They cannot profile from Wanton Destruction under any circumstance. Their baseline profile is a joke, legionaries with +1W and Ld for 7 pts more. Accursed Weapons are ridiculous in a meta in which D2-3 is required to kill anything reliably. They even removed the ,get an additional trait‘ rule from the playtest version.
They should have had better bolter profiles with AP -2 at least, similar to sternguard vets or something…
They shoud've had 'Chosen Firearms', yeah.
I think it is impressive that this codex is so bad, so utterly poor, that no one is trying to defend it. There is no real 'silver lining'.
Also this is (YET AGAIN) another place where 3.5 ed did things better. Chosen or Terminators? Nah - they're the same unit - you can even mix them. You know - a cool, creative approach which allowed you to represent both rag-tag veterans or full kill teams of Terminators.
It's probably all down to the models in the box. The mutants are probably 5 to a box (the exact 5 we've seen already) and the mutant mutants are 3 to a box (again, the exact 3 we've been shown). And I'd bet money that there's zero variation with those models.
I've put my stuff up for sale in our local group and will likely start work on a second Legion for HH, a ruleset that actually lets me have fun with loadouts of wargear...
Yeah! That'll show them! Give GW money!
What do people not understand here? You give them nothing. It is the only language GW understand.
So basically you say GW needs to get idea that nothing they produce whatsover is worth anything...So basically you are saying "rather than produce good stuff just close up operation".
you give them for things you find decent, aka the decent 30k ruleset, and cut them where they are not doing decent, like the new CSM codex. That is far more productive.
.
Bro, it all goes in the same kitty. You give them nothing. This utter abortion of a codex deserves no praise whatsoever. If I ever come into possession of one I will piss on it to make sure the stink of my contempt runs foetid through every page.
So you show your opinion regarding the codex.
You realize right your way GW wouldn't have any idea your problem is with the CSM codex?
Either your lack of understanding of meaning of your actions is zero or your problem isn't with CSM codex but GW as a whole. At which point stop pretending(one could even say lying) about your motives.
I initially had the same reaction on Chosen - but I don't think they are that bad really. 7 points buys you an extra wound, and effectively a power sword with +1 attack. +/- a point that's probably about right. Even though they are 1 damage they math out reasonably into a range of targets once getting those exploding 6s to hit. You just don't want to be punching tanks.
I agree though that they should have started with the Chosen ability unlocked, rather than needing to kill an opposing unit. There probably is a world where you can use some combi-meltas to blow something up turn 2, then charge in with Wanton Slaughter up. But it seems a bit contrived.
Whether 145 points for say 5 guys, 2 combi-meltas, and a guy with 2 accursed weapons (because really the bolters are pointless) is a good price I guess is open to debate. It would be better if it was 10 points less, but I'm not sure its changing much about how the unit operates. Further buffs etc might be worth it but I don't think we've had visual confirmation yet.
I'll repeat a question that I posted earlier but got no response about. Does anyone know the cost of the tome that allows Legionaire units to use psychic powers? It's not listed in the Legionaire point cost (at least not that I could read).
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'll repeat a question that I posted earlier but got no response about. Does anyone know the cost of the tome that allows Legionaire units to use psychic powers? It's not listed in the Legionaire point cost (at least not that I could read).
I've seen some suggestions that this book was due out some time ago as it's also missing traitor guard, and misses out some of the 40k options the new daemon prince has (it's the old model in the book).
Gadzilla666 wrote: That's what I suspected. But, we obviously can't expect the same rules consideration as Eldar for CSM. Much less for the "Scary" Legion. Not from the current 40k rules team. 30k, though, that's a different story. Those guys get the Legions, including the 8th.
Imagine if they had written this book. If only.....
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Leo_the_Rat wrote: Quick question- I see under Legionaires that they can take some kind on tome to make the unit Psychic but I don't see any point cost for the tome. So is the tome a free upgrade or am I missing something?
It's +20 points for the squad. Balefire Tome. First option, top of the list.
This sounds very disappointing. Our worst Codex in a while. The statlines and special rules are not so bad, some are even great, but the messed up and restrictive wargear options ruin the whole thing.
I'll be sticking to 8th then, with some homebrew rules thrown in. Seeing this new codex makes me glad I recently wrote a shed-load of homebrew Chaos supplement rules for 8th ed codex. I put the project aside when this new codex was announced, because I knew that the rules they were built upon would be invalidated, but now I just don't care what GW are doing with chaos. So long as the people I game with are okay with it, I'll be ignoring GW's insultingly poor "updates"
Tastyfish wrote: I've seen some suggestions that this book was due out some time ago as it's also missing traitor guard, and misses out some of the 40k options the new daemon prince has (it's the old model in the book).
The way boxes with just models are impacted by delays (like the Genestealer combat patrol as the latest example) my guess is they're having serious issues getting their boxes printed and shipped from China right now. In my opinion if everything had gone to GW's plan the codex would have come in March on the heels of the Chaos Marine Kill Team.
A codex wide special rule. That's the weirdest way to change specific weapon profiles.
---
So, Wanton <blah> is just the current version of Death to the False Emperor, but affects shooting AND requires weapon type vs game turn accounting. Fun.
----
The fluff for both of these things is so terrible.
'Unencumbered by stultifying doctrines, they mimic doctrines.'
Also their flamers are extra burny, because reasons.
Ah yes the "lets big up the chaos release and talk about some key units, here's a stock photo of them"
Uses the old now oop start collecting photo, containing 3 units that can't be purchased "High five marketing team!"
Don't change GW
Dudeface wrote: Ah yes the "lets big up the chaos release and talk about some key units, here's a stock photo of them"
Uses the old now oop start collecting photo, containing 3 units that can't be purchased "High five marketing team!"
Don't change GW
No worries, those models will probably be available in a bundle soon, that will no doubt cost the same as the start collecting, but not include the unit of CSM
Dudeface wrote: Ah yes the "lets big up the chaos release and talk about some key units, here's a stock photo of them"
Uses the old now oop start collecting photo, containing 3 units that can't be purchased "High five marketing team!"
Don't change GW
Four units. MoP seems to be absent from the GW site as well.
I feel like this rule was taken from somewhere else after the fluff section had been written and they changed the rule name to force it to fit.
It's a hack to give flamer weapons extra hits because they can't benefit from the exploding 6 rules.
Yes, it is. But its also
a) weird and out of nowhere
b) not particularly available on chaos units (well, not anymore, anyway)
c) way out of line with the odds of exploding 6s (statistically, if you have 6 shots, you'd expect 1 six (and 2 failures) for a total of 5 hits. Flamers averaging 3.5 hits (and shots) now jump straight to 5.5. On the rare occasion you're allowed to have 2 flamers, your 7 shots/hits (much closer to 6 shots from other guns) jump to 11)
Dudeface wrote: Ah yes the "lets big up the chaos release and talk about some key units, here's a stock photo of them"
Uses the old now oop start collecting photo, containing 3 units that can't be purchased "High five marketing team!"
Don't change GW
Four units. MoP seems to be absent from the GW site as well.
Actually it was the possessed I discounted as they have at least broadcast a plan for letting you buy some of those.
Shame they didn't follow through with actually releasing them. ;\
I'd give GW a lot more credit if they actually acknowledged the mess.
Instead we get articles like this, which was obviously pre-written to the point that it doesn't even acknowledge the release date they just announced.
today wrote:Plunge the galaxy into a fiery doom when Codex: Chaos Space Marines arrives for pre-order soon, and stay tuned to Warhammer-Community.com for more juicy reveals as we get closer to release day.
yesterday wrote:Everything featured will all be available to pre-order from this coming Saturday. We kick things off in the most darkly-grim corner of the grim darkness of the far future – the Eye of Terror.
Should be a note you can't take two flamers in a standard CSM squad.
I feel like this rule was taken from somewhere else after the fluff section had been written and they changed the rule name to force it to fit.
it would be nice for my full squad of flamer chosen.... oh wait, they are illegal now thanks gw, you can put the horn and make up away, we know you could and did do better.
@Tyel and Dudeface- Thank you for finding the answer (I didn't notice someone had already answered). I've been helping my friend practice for an event. He uses Balefire flamers, a lot, and for some odd reason when I saw Balefire my brain just filled in flamers rather than tome.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: @Tyel and Dudeface- Thank you for finding the answer (I didn't notice someone had already answered). I've been helping my friend practice for an event. He uses Balefire flamers, a lot, and for some odd reason when I saw Balefire my brain just filled in flamers rather than tome.
No problem. I'm having a similar issue with other things.
Its a lot easier to work stuff out with a book rather than flicking between multiple tabs.
Should be a note you can't take two flamers in a standard CSM squad.
I feel like this rule was taken from somewhere else after the fluff section had been written and they changed the rule name to force it to fit.
it would be nice for my full squad of flamer chosen.... oh wait, they are illegal now thanks gw, you can put the horn and make up away, we know you could and did do better.
Look buddy this was power gaming, abused new players, and shoved Chosen into a specific niche which they can now break out of ... by being slightly cheaper Terminators with no 2++ or 5++ or deep strike.
Also all Chosen should have different weapons - CSMs would NEVER use more than one weapon per squad - except for combi weapons - which they may only have TWO of.
Voss wrote: Shame they didn't follow through with actually releasing them. ;\
I'd give GW a lot more credit if they actually acknowledged the mess.
Instead we get articles like this, which was obviously pre-written to the point that it doesn't even acknowledge the release date they just announced.
today wrote:Plunge the galaxy into a fiery doom when Codex: Chaos Space Marines arrives for pre-order soon, and stay tuned to Warhammer-Community.com for more juicy reveals as we get closer to release day.
yesterday wrote:Everything featured will all be available to pre-order from this coming Saturday. We kick things off in the most darkly-grim corner of the grim darkness of the far future – the Eye of Terror.
This to me just reiterates they're panic-dropping the book for some reason.
Voss wrote: Shame they didn't follow through with actually releasing them. ;\
I'd give GW a lot more credit if they actually acknowledged the mess.
Instead we get articles like this, which was obviously pre-written to the point that it doesn't even acknowledge the release date they just announced.
today wrote:Plunge the galaxy into a fiery doom when Codex: Chaos Space Marines arrives for pre-order soon, and stay tuned to Warhammer-Community.com for more juicy reveals as we get closer to release day.
yesterday wrote:Everything featured will all be available to pre-order from this coming Saturday. We kick things off in the most darkly-grim corner of the grim darkness of the far future – the Eye of Terror.
This to me just reiterates they're panic-dropping the book for some reason.
i reckon they somewhere messed up the timetable, printed too early, got feedback that their new codex stinks, not necessarily from a rulesperspective but from a designperspective (which is worse, since you can buff rules and wargear / models but not fix overarching design) and are just throwing it out in the hopes that it wont cut into their sales figures.
Voss wrote: Shame they didn't follow through with actually releasing them. ;\
I'd give GW a lot more credit if they actually acknowledged the mess.
Instead we get articles like this, which was obviously pre-written to the point that it doesn't even acknowledge the release date they just announced.
today wrote:Plunge the galaxy into a fiery doom when Codex: Chaos Space Marines arrives for pre-order soon, and stay tuned to Warhammer-Community.com for more juicy reveals as we get closer to release day.
yesterday wrote:Everything featured will all be available to pre-order from this coming Saturday. We kick things off in the most darkly-grim corner of the grim darkness of the far future – the Eye of Terror.
This to me just reiterates they're panic-dropping the book for some reason.
i reckon they somewhere messed up the timetable, printed too early, got feedback that their new codex stinks, not necessarily from a rulesperspective but from a designperspective (which is worse, since you can buff rules and wargear / models but not fix overarching design) and are just throwing it out in the hopes that it wont cut into their sales figures.
Hope that the book hype etc will move on and ten release kits later so people buy in for the kits and not the rules maybe? Or there's a 2nd wave they have line dup and just want to smush them together (a man can dream).
Look buddy this was power gaming, abused new players, and shoved Chosen into a specific niche which they can now break out of ... by being slightly cheaper Terminators with no 2++ or 5++ or deep strike.
Also all Chosen should have different weapons - CSMs would NEVER use more than one weapon per squad - except for combi weapons - which they may only have TWO of.
i appreciate the humor, but i feel like collectively we as csm players since 3.5 have repeatedly hoped for a decent designed dex only to repeatedly do the same thing (buy) a shoddy gw40kcsm dex.
its like Vaas from far cry 3 and his definition of insanity.
Voss wrote: Shame they didn't follow through with actually releasing them. ;\
I'd give GW a lot more credit if they actually acknowledged the mess.
Instead we get articles like this, which was obviously pre-written to the point that it doesn't even acknowledge the release date they just announced.
today wrote:Plunge the galaxy into a fiery doom when Codex: Chaos Space Marines arrives for pre-order soon, and stay tuned to Warhammer-Community.com for more juicy reveals as we get closer to release day.
yesterday wrote:Everything featured will all be available to pre-order from this coming Saturday. We kick things off in the most darkly-grim corner of the grim darkness of the far future – the Eye of Terror.
This to me just reiterates they're panic-dropping the book for some reason.
i reckon they somewhere messed up the timetable, printed too early, got feedback that their new codex stinks, not necessarily from a rulesperspective but from a designperspective (which is worse, since you can buff rules and wargear / models but not fix overarching design) and are just throwing it out in the hopes that it wont cut into their sales figures.
Hope that the book hype etc will move on and ten release kits later so people buy in for the kits and not the rules maybe? Or there's a 2nd wave they have line dup and just want to smush them together (a man can dream).
and sell them separately as an updated mid edition codex? in 10th?
¨double the book sales so it isn^'t even unlikely.
an absolute dick move for your custommer base but yeah, i can see gw pulling something like that.
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Kid_Kyoto wrote: I don't see why everyone is upset, I mean the book will be otiose in a few months once 10th edition comes out.
Look buddy this was power gaming, abused new players, and shoved Chosen into a specific niche which they can now break out of ... by being slightly cheaper Terminators with no 2++ or 5++ or deep strike.
Also all Chosen should have different weapons - CSMs would NEVER use more than one weapon per squad - except for combi weapons - which they may only have TWO of.
i appreciate the humor, but i feel like collectively we as csm players since 3.5 have repeatedly hoped for a decent designed dex only to repeatedly do the same thing (buy) a shoddy gw40kcsm dex.
its like Vaas from far cry 3 and his definition of insanity.
Yeah at this point I've come to the conclusion GW is largely if not entirely incapable of putting together a decent codex. It's not in their interests and they have none of the skills required to do it.
Look buddy this was power gaming, abused new players, and shoved Chosen into a specific niche which they can now break out of ... by being slightly cheaper Terminators with no 2++ or 5++ or deep strike.
Also all Chosen should have different weapons - CSMs would NEVER use more than one weapon per squad - except for combi weapons - which they may only have TWO of.
i appreciate the humor, but i feel like collectively we as csm players since 3.5 have repeatedly hoped for a decent designed dex only to repeatedly do the same thing (buy) a shoddy gw40kcsm dex.
its like Vaas from far cry 3 and his definition of insanity.
Yeah at this point I've come to the conclusion GW is largely if not entirely incapable of putting together a decent codex. It's not in their interests and they have none of the skills required to do it.
except they have competent ruleswriters and produced quality rules in the past, hell even in 9th they did some really good books considering GSC, nvm HH rules. its seemingly only the 40k team that has an internal muppetshow for half the writers.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I don't see why everyone is upset, I mean the book will be otiose in a few months once 10th edition comes out.
(runs, hides, sorry/not sorry)
And all the Chaos players will get to be in the glorious spot of Necron players, where they have the most god-awful Codex out of all for the entirety of the edition.
GW learned in 8th that if you make a bad Chaos codex, you can just release a new one with a different hat a year or two later that doesn't actually solve any of the problems and maybe sell a campaign book at the same time for the suckers that though all the campaign content would be part of that new hat.
I'm going to mix mine. Normally I ran 3 units of 10 with 2 Blastmasters. Now, assuming I still play EC, I'll go with 2 max units and 2 MSUs. This way I can maximize the effect of the new Excrutiating Frequencies with a full back up unit and still get the flexability of the extra blastmaster.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'm going to mix mine. Normally I ran 3 units of 10 with 2 Blastmasters. Now, assuming I still play EC, I'll go with 2 max units and 2 MSUs. This way I can maximize the effect of the new Excrutiating Frequencies with a full back up unit and still get the flexability of the extra blastmaster.
My 2 cents.
Fair ! As far as support goes, even with a Dark apostle and a MoP, now that we no longer have access to Endless Cacophony on Noise I feel we can't really put all our eggs in one basket. Plus I want to try to build my list around our new secondary. So I'll take 3 min squad with blastmasters.
Btw, with the new Slanesh prayer and spell and us keeping honour the prince our melee capability seems at an all time high. I'm even tempted to put icons on my Noise and big axes on the champion for 4 always it on 2+ high strength and AP attacks
10 men Warp Talon bombs also look nasty with the right buffs.
Along with the Noise Marines I'm taking a max unit of Legionaires with bolt pistol and chain sword (sgt has plasma pistol). Originally they were also Noise Marines but with losing Kakophani and them being exactly the same as a marked Legionaire unit but 15 points more expensive they became Legionaires.
My general list is: Daemon Prince with wings, Termie Lord, Termie Sorcerer, HtH Legionaires max unit, Noise Marines 2x10 2x5, Termies (chainfist, hvy flamer) marked and, 3 oblits. Comes to exactly 2000 points.
Just a quick question... So wanton slaughter is our longest lasting phase but where do we have access to lots of rapid fire and assault weapons that actually have an impact on the enemy???
I feel like this rule was taken from somewhere else after the fluff section had been written and they changed the rule name to force it to fit.
It's a hack to give flamer weapons extra hits because they can't benefit from the exploding 6 rules.
Yes, it is. But its also
a) weird and out of nowhere
b) not particularly available on chaos units (well, not anymore, anyway)
c) way out of line with the odds of exploding 6s (statistically, if you have 6 shots, you'd expect 1 six (and 2 failures) for a total of 5 hits. Flamers averaging 3.5 hits (and shots) now jump straight to 5.5. On the rare occasion you're allowed to have 2 flamers, your 7 shots/hits (much closer to 6 shots from other guns) jump to 11)
It's "weird and out of nowhere" because it's something that they threw in after they realized that "Spiky Doctrines" didn't do anything for weapons that auto-hit. Probably after the DE liquifier debacle reminded them that auto-hiting weapons exist.
Just more evidence that they've been working on this codex piecemeal since the start (or before) of 9th. And they've refused to fundamentally rethink or change anything major as they went along. Just adding more "stuff" here and there, while leaving anything already "done" (like datasheets and the options within them) the same as before whatever paradigm shift that the current "new stuff" was meant to "fix". Thus this mess.
Daedalus81 wrote:You guys are going to mine all the salt at this rate!
Well, what do you expect? There's very little redeeming here.
Here, I'll throw you a bone: "Hey look! They actually made (Havoc) autocannons (slightly) better". Huzzah!
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Along with the Noise Marines I'm taking a max unit of Legionaires with bolt pistol and chain sword (sgt has plasma pistol). Originally they were also Noise Marines but with losing Kakophani and them being exactly the same as a marked Legionaire unit but 15 points more expensive they became Legionaires.
My general list is: Daemon Prince with wings, Termie Lord, Termie Sorcerer, HtH Legionaires max unit, Noise Marines 2x10 2x5, Termies (chainfist, hvy flamer) marked and, 3 oblits. Comes to exactly 2000 points.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The fact of the matter is that most of Chaos's problems would be solved by having an extra sprue of options in each of the kits.
An extra sprue of weapons and heads in the Terminator kit.
An extra sprue of ranged weapons and a few extra melee weapons in the Chosen kit.
I would pay 80 dollars for each of those kits if they actually let me build what I wanted to build, because it would still be cheaper than buying 2 of the kit to fish for weapons. People would rage at such a price increase for something that SHOULD HAVE BEEN PART OF THE UNIT, and I understand that, but that's where we are.
Are they going to do that? Well, we can only pray that Kill Team will give us a solution when they get into Elites, as aside from the Cadian Shock Troop box and the situation with Imperial Knights, Kill Team is the only time GW have added an extra sprue to a kit to represent more options.
But then, here's the other issue. GW's likely going to start hyping 10th edition and whatever storyline they've churned up for it. You may be thinking "Oh, that means this codex is going to be irrelevant in a year when 10th drops next Summer!"
To which I say: Oh you sweet summer child. There's just as much of a chance that this is the codex we will have for the next 3+ years. There might not be another Chaos Marine release outside of World Eaters and, if we're lucky, Emperor's Children, until deep into 10th edition, when they're going to be prepping for 11th edition! We simply don't know, there's too much up in the air to see that far ahead.
After all, it took nearly 3 years to get a 2nd wound. Now watch as the new Space Marine Codex gets the new flamer rule (+2 attacks for flame weapons, which will make a lot more sense for many of their units), more attacks across the board (because how dare Chaos Marines have any stat advantages) and who knows what else.
So in the worst case you have:
1. Kits that will never be updated and never give us the options to run them the way people want them to.
2. Rules that we'll be stuck with for another full edition cycle
3. Anything special we thought we had will be bogarted by the next inevitable Space Marine update
Best case scenario:
1. When Kill Team Elites comes out, Terminators will get an extra sprue of weapon options for a premium price
2. The Codex gets an early or mid-edition update if Emperor's Children isn't planned for 10th, meaning EC will still be in the book for a while longer
3. Chaos Marines might simply be the faction of many attacks at 1 damage to differentiate us from others, which would be neat for a change
4. The update comes with new Huron, Bikers, and updated rhino-chassis vehicles to finally make a cohesively designed faction
Either way, we're stuck with this for now and the future is incredibly uncertain. Having been waiting for GW to treat Chaos Marines half-decent since 5th edition, I don't have a lot of faith.
Is....is this accurate? 5 noise marines for 165 points? 33 points per model? I mean, even pitching the chainaxe, doom siren and not overpaying for the extra sonic blaster they'd be like 145, which is still outrageously expensive.
Is....is this accurate? 5 noise marines for 165 points? 33 points per model? I mean, even pitching the chainaxe, doom siren and not overpaying for the extra sonic blaster they'd be like 145, which is still outrageously expensive.
Hey, they've got... Um...
What do they have compared to a 20 point Intercessor to justify being more expensive? Because it can't be their sonic weapons-you pay extra points for those.
Also, to the sentiment that GW is "rushing this book out", of course they are.
It's the start of the new fiscal year, Horus Heresy is their big seller this year in place of a new edition, and they're not sure how well that's going to do this summer, so expect a LOT to be rushed out as quickly as possible so they can pad this summer with as much profit as they can.
I've heard directly that GW is tightening the purse strings and chopping out any excess spending on the back-end prepping for an economic downturn. What does that mean for us? Well, not much. Just that they're likely going to tempt us with as much product as they can pump out.
drbored wrote: Also, to the sentiment that GW is "rushing this book out", of course they are.
It's the start of the new fiscal year, Horus Heresy is their big seller this year in place of a new edition, and they're not sure how well that's going to do this summer, so expect a LOT to be rushed out as quickly as possible so they can pad this summer with as much profit as they can.
I've heard directly that GW is tightening the purse strings and chopping out any excess spending on the back-end prepping for an economic downturn. What does that mean for us? Well, not much. Just that they're likely going to tempt us with as much product as they can pump out.
Except... they didn't pump it out. They done the exact opposite with a book only launch.
I get 161 points per unit that Dreadfully Hopeful plans to use. He added in the cost of a 5th sonic blaster when he's only using 4. Don't forget that's only an MSU of 5 models. Fully kitted out the unit's cost would be 291 for 10 Noise Marines (9 blasters, 1 blastmaster, 1 doom siren, 1 dread axe, 1 icon).
Is....is this accurate? 5 noise marines for 165 points? 33 points per model? I mean, even pitching the chainaxe, doom siren and not overpaying for the extra sonic blaster they'd be like 145, which is still outrageously expensive.
Hey, they've got... Um...
What do they have compared to a 20 point Intercessor to justify being more expensive? Because it can't be their sonic weapons-you pay extra points for those.
Well keep in mind that's with the Blastmaster AND Doom Siren. Not saying it's fantastic for the price point but let's not act like that's five barebone Noise Marines.
Is....is this accurate? 5 noise marines for 165 points? 33 points per model? I mean, even pitching the chainaxe, doom siren and not overpaying for the extra sonic blaster they'd be like 145, which is still outrageously expensive.
Hey, they've got... Um...
What do they have compared to a 20 point Intercessor to justify being more expensive? Because it can't be their sonic weapons-you pay extra points for those.
Well keep in mind that's with the Blastmaster AND Doom Siren. Not saying it's fantastic for the price point but let's not act like that's five barebone Noise Marines.
Noise Marines are 21 PPM base. That's what I'm talking about-they're 1 point more expensive than an Intercessor, when armed with a Bolter.
Why?
What I'd like to know is why the 15 point difference is between 10 Noise Marines with bolt pistol and chainsword (210 points) and 10 Legionaires with bolt pistol, chainsword and, mark of slaanesh (195 points)? They have identical stats and are using identical weapons.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: What I'd like to know is why the 15 point difference is between 10 Noise Marines with bolt pistol and chainsword (210 points) and 10 Legionaires with bolt pistol, chainsword and, mark of slaanesh (195 points)? They have identical stats and are using identical weapons.
Because they baked in the cost of the mark at 3 points per model for a unit of 5 and were too thick to realise that meant you were paying for it twice when you took a unit of ten.
It really is that simple. The people writing rules for 40k do not understand that although 5*18+15 = 5*21, that does not mean that 10*18+15 = 10*21.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: What I'd like to know is why the 15 point difference is between 10 Noise Marines with bolt pistol and chainsword (210 points) and 10 Legionaires with bolt pistol, chainsword and, mark of slaanesh (195 points)? They have identical stats and are using identical weapons.
It's because they made the price for optional Marks on a "per unit" basis, while "baking it in" for units where they aren't an option, like Noise Marines. 3.5 priced Marks on a "per model" basis, thus avoiding this issue. Better codex design, through and through.
Andy Chambers and Pete Gaines, where are you when we need you?!
Leo_the_Rat wrote: No, if that were true then the Noise Marines would be cheaper than the Legionaires. The mark works out to be the same for each unit (1.5 pts/model).
No. A Legionaire, without a Mark, is 18 PPM. A Noise Marine is 21 PPM. So the Noise Marines are paying +3 PPM for the Mark of Slaanesh. The price for the Mark of Slaanesh is 15 points per squad for the Legionaries, so it's +3 PPM if the squad is only 5 models. Once you go beyond 5 models, you get a discount, dropping to 1.5 PPM at 10 models.
Is....is this accurate? 5 noise marines for 165 points? 33 points per model? I mean, even pitching the chainaxe, doom siren and not overpaying for the extra sonic blaster they'd be like 145, which is still outrageously expensive.
Hey, they've got... Um...
What do they have compared to a 20 point Intercessor to justify being more expensive? Because it can't be their sonic weapons-you pay extra points for those.
Well keep in mind that's with the Blastmaster AND Doom Siren. Not saying it's fantastic for the price point but let's not act like that's five barebone Noise Marines.
Noise Marines are 21 PPM base. That's what I'm talking about-they're 1 point more expensive than an Intercessor, when armed with a Bolter.
Why?
Huh, you're right. They have the extra attack baked in instead of it being a rule like with Loyalists, and I'm not even sure they had higher LD (which GW overvalues). Then of course they fight first.
Yeah that's a tough call. I definitely wouldn't take them as an Elite slot for ANY Legion I can tell you that much. They get a saving grace as a troop choice I guess for EC?
It doesn't seem they were particularly well designed to be frank, which fits the rest of the codex as we've seen sooooo...
Leo_the_Rat wrote: No, if that were true then the Noise Marines would be cheaper than the Legionaires. The mark works out to be the same for each unit (1.5 pts/model).
No. A Legionaire, without a Mark, is 18 PPM. A Noise Marine is 21 PPM. So the Noise Marines are paying +3 PPM for the Mark of Slaanesh. The price for the Mark of Slaanesh is 15 points per squad for the Legionaries, so it's +3 PPM if the squad is only 5 models. Once you go beyond 5 models, you get a discount, dropping to 1.5 PPM at 10 models.
I see. My mistake mathwise but the question remains why the point difference for 2 identical units. Or is the answer, "Typical GW."?
Scottywan82 wrote: I've been thinking about it and I almost wish they'd gone the Primaris route with Chaos. At least when Space Marines got Primaris models that were all kitlocked nonsense, they left the firstborn units as they were. True, they made the rules suck, but they didn't invalidate units or armies.
For Chaos they just decided to feth over everyone who'd ever converted a model instead.
Not even converted. Multiple meltas or plasmaguns in a squad has been a normal thing for a long time. Now its absolutely and utterly forbidden.
Completely unrelated, but how are Grey Hunters and BT Crusader squads allowed to be equipped these days?
It's even inconsistent in the same book, the limit doesn't look to apply to bikers.
Everything is inconsistent in this book. Why do Terminators get rules for their power fists, but Chosen don't? Why do Chaos Lords have options that require kitbashing/converting, but Exalted Champions get stuck with a single loadout? Why is it ok to kitbash/convert those Chaos Lord weapons, but not a jump pack? Why does a PA Chaos Lord have to pay for melee weapons, but Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour get them for "free"?
Nothing makes sense. There is absolutely no consistency, no plan, no design parameters. It's just arbitrary rules, over and over and over. This codex was designed by madmen.
Between the above and the strange exclusion of the Traitor Guard, I really can't help but wonder if the book was just rushed to the printers whilst the actual writing was barely out of the draft stages. I know we comment a lot on GW's general incompetence and modern inconsistency, but this feels like something else entirely, as if they got half-way through rewriting it before being told they needed to get it formatted and sent to the printers NOW. Bin Guy was left desperately scribbling in the most recent ideas off the top of his head.
Then again, Sisters Novitiates got revealed very shortly after their most recent codex released didn't they? So I guess there is a precedent for it.
Is....is this accurate? 5 noise marines for 165 points? 33 points per model? I mean, even pitching the chainaxe, doom siren and not overpaying for the extra sonic blaster they'd be like 145, which is still outrageously expensive.
Hey, they've got... Um...
What do they have compared to a 20 point Intercessor to justify being more expensive? Because it can't be their sonic weapons-you pay extra points for those.
Well keep in mind that's with the Blastmaster AND Doom Siren. Not saying it's fantastic for the price point but let's not act like that's five barebone Noise Marines.
Noise Marines are 21 PPM base. That's what I'm talking about-they're 1 point more expensive than an Intercessor, when armed with a Bolter.
Why?
They have a baked in Mark of Slaanesh for "always fights first" that worth at least 1 pt.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I don't see why everyone is upset, I mean the book will be otiose in a few months once 10th edition comes out.
You're using that word for evil Kid! That thread gave you too much power!!!
UGH. I had to Google it. I thought Kid was having a stroke or something, but no, I'm just ignorant! This is terrible!
Not gonna lie--I had to google it also. Turns out (after looking at the pronunciation) it is a word I've heard and used but never seen actually spelled out.
Reminds me of the first time I saw "rendezvous" spelled out (I took Spanish in high school; not French! )
Tastyfish wrote: I've seen some suggestions that this book was due out some time ago as it's also missing traitor guard, and misses out some of the 40k options the new daemon prince has (it's the old model in the book).
I wouldn't be shocked. All of the HH stuff is marked 2021. Putting two and two together, I surmise that HH was due out last summer or early fall when the original leaks occurred. We know from the leaker that they had a 12 month back up on releases so it's likely chaos and Eldar were also late to the party.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Along with the Noise Marines I'm taking a max unit of Legionaires with bolt pistol and chain sword (sgt has plasma pistol). Originally they were also Noise Marines but with losing Kakophani and them being exactly the same as a marked Legionaire unit but 15 points more expensive they became Legionaires.
My general list is: Daemon Prince with wings, Termie Lord, Termie Sorcerer, HtH Legionaires max unit, Noise Marines 2x10 2x5, Termies (chainfist, hvy flamer) marked and, 3 oblits. Comes to exactly 2000 points.
I like that list alot. For the MSU Blastmaster squads your still taking sonic blasters? You could save some point by taking bolters on them. Also how do you feel about Haocs with 4X Reaper for 145 pts?
I'm sure that Masters of Kakophani is in there somewhere for free marks and Noise Marine troops. Not that they haven't forgotten before and had to FAQ it. They've had to FAQ the second Blastmaster in before as well, so we can start writing in about it once the codex drops.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: No, if that were true then the Noise Marines would be cheaper than the Legionaires. The mark works out to be the same for each unit (1.5 pts/model).
No. A Legionaire, without a Mark, is 18 PPM. A Noise Marine is 21 PPM. So the Noise Marines are paying +3 PPM for the Mark of Slaanesh. The price for the Mark of Slaanesh is 15 points per squad for the Legionaries, so it's +3 PPM if the squad is only 5 models. Once you go beyond 5 models, you get a discount, dropping to 1.5 PPM at 10 models.
I see. My mistake mathwise but the question remains why the point difference for 2 identical units. Or is the answer, "Typical GW."?
Scottywan82 wrote: I've been thinking about it and I almost wish they'd gone the Primaris route with Chaos. At least when Space Marines got Primaris models that were all kitlocked nonsense, they left the firstborn units as they were. True, they made the rules suck, but they didn't invalidate units or armies.
For Chaos they just decided to feth over everyone who'd ever converted a model instead.
Not even converted. Multiple meltas or plasmaguns in a squad has been a normal thing for a long time. Now its absolutely and utterly forbidden.
Completely unrelated, but how are Grey Hunters and BT Crusader squads allowed to be equipped these days?
It's even inconsistent in the same book, the limit doesn't look to apply to bikers.
Everything is inconsistent in this book. Why do Terminators get rules for their power fists, but Chosen don't? Why do Chaos Lords have options that require kitbashing/converting, but Exalted Champions get stuck with a single loadout? Why is it ok to kitbash/convert those Chaos Lord weapons, but not a jump pack? Why does a PA Chaos Lord have to pay for melee weapons, but Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour get them for "free"?
Nothing makes sense. There is absolutely no consistency, no plan, no design parameters. It's just arbitrary rules, over and over and over. This codex was designed by madmen.
Between the above and the strange exclusion of the Traitor Guard, I really can't help but wonder if the book was just rushed to the printers whilst the actual writing was barely out of the draft stages. I know we comment a lot on GW's general incompetence and modern inconsistency, but this feels like something else entirely, as if they got half-way through rewriting it before being told they needed to get it formatted and sent to the printers NOW. Bin Guy was left desperately scribbling in the most recent ideas off the top of his head.
Then again, Sisters Novitiates got revealed very shortly after their most recent codex released didn't they? So I guess there is a precedent for it.
Possibly. I think that they've been mucking about with it since before 9th edition released, changing things up as the edition has moved along, and they needed a final pass to make everything "cohesive". But that never happened, for whatever reason. Having the higher ups declare that it needs to be "finished NOW" and sent to the printers would be a possible explanation for that.
Question: Has anyone seen a leaked codex page with any of the "Super Doctrines"? It seems odd that none of the leakers have managed to get a picture of one. I'm beginning to think that they were just removed.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: What I'd like to know is why the 15 point difference is between 10 Noise Marines with bolt pistol and chainsword (210 points) and 10 Legionaires with bolt pistol, chainsword and, mark of slaanesh (195 points)? They have identical stats and are using identical weapons.
It's because they made the price for optional Marks on a "per unit" basis, while "baking it in" for units where they aren't an option, like Noise Marines. 3.5 priced Marks on a "per model" basis, thus avoiding this issue. Better codex design, through and through.
Andy Chambers and Pete Gaines, where are you when we need you?!
I'm pretty sure they're paying for the sonic weapon ability even if you don't take sonic weapons.
What are people thinking for generic CSM ? The only chat in here is for EC at the moment.
Legionnaires look pretty good now, a full squad of 10 with a tooled up champion plus a heavy chain axe could do some serious harm on objectives. 4 attacks each with exploding sixes if in the right turn sounds great I like the sound of multiple havoc squads now as well with their very low points cost being a big bonus.
As an iron warriors player I feel my cultists will be getting some serious work in the king of cannon fodder for my heavy firepower.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: What I'd like to know is why the 15 point difference is between 10 Noise Marines with bolt pistol and chainsword (210 points) and 10 Legionaires with bolt pistol, chainsword and, mark of slaanesh (195 points)? They have identical stats and are using identical weapons.
It's because they made the price for optional Marks on a "per unit" basis, while "baking it in" for units where they aren't an option, like Noise Marines. 3.5 priced Marks on a "per model" basis, thus avoiding this issue. Better codex design, through and through.
Andy Chambers and Pete Gaines, where are you when we need you?!
I'm pretty sure they're paying for the sonic weapon ability even if you don't take sonic weapons.
No Daed. I've already explained this, as have others. To reiterate:
Gadzilla666 wrote:No. A Legionaire, without a Mark, is 18 PPM. A Noise Marine is 21 PPM. So the Noise Marines are paying +3 PPM for the Mark of Slaanesh. The price for the Mark of Slaanesh is 15 points per squad for the Legionaries, so it's +3 PPM if the squad is only 5 models. Once you go beyond 5 models, you get a discount, dropping to 1.5 PPM at 10 models.
Pretty sure that the Sonic Weapons abilities are factored into those weapons prices.
JNAProductions wrote: Is “Fights First” and a worse gun and slot really worth 1 PPM?
If they had more melee, then sure. But without that…
Also, for the record, I'm going to say that I actually like the flat cost for Marks in a squad. It helps encourage going beyond MSU, which is a good change.
A bit sad that a unit of 5 raptors with meltas or flamers cost more then a Venomcrawler but it makes me want to try this more "demonkin" heavy list.
I'm totally in for Abaddon Black Legion Chosen with Tzeentch marks and Legionaries with Tomes and Death Hex. Drop invulnerables with Hex and then explode a bunch of melta shots into the targets. Toss in some flamer heavy Termies -- I'm actually warming up to the idea of a heavy flamer for them for the first time ever.
If there is a way to guarantee Destruction on a unit beyond turn 1 then I wouldn't mind using Quad Las Preds. It otherwise kind of stinks to miss out if you go first and have no targets for them.
Noise marines should be allowed to take sonic blasters for free so they are 21pts with their signature weapon.
It's absolutely crazy to me that noise marines are the same cost as Rubic Marines who get a aspiring sorcerer squad leader and vastly superior bolter for the same price.
Maybe we're paying a premium per marine because the blastmaster itself is so powerful ?
A bit sad that a unit of 5 raptors with meltas or flamers cost more then a Venomcrawler but it makes me want to try this more "demonkin" heavy list.
I'm totally in for Abaddon Black Legion Chosen with Tzeentch marks and Legionaries with Tomes and Death Hex. Drop invulnerables with Hex and then explode a bunch of melta shots into the targets.
If there is a way to guarantee Destruction on a unit beyond turn 1 then I wouldn't mind using Quad Las Preds. It otherwise kind of stinks to miss out if you go first and have no targets for them.
Abba does look positively mean. "Interestingly" EC have a strat to put a core or Demonkin unit into slaughter. So I'd bet the strat to put a unit back into destruction is IW only.
Just reiterating this question again in case anyone missed it, because obviously, it's important:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Question: Has anyone seen a leaked codex page with any of the "Super Doctrines"? It seems odd that none of the leakers have managed to get a picture of one. I'm beginning to think that they were just removed.
Also: Any sign of a Warp Talons or Raptors datasheet? Or anything pertaining to Night Lords (Legion trait, WLTs, relics, stratagems, anything). C'mon, throw an old Nostroman a bone.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Just reiterating this question again in case anyone missed it, because obviously, it's important:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Question: Has anyone seen a leaked codex page with any of the "Super Doctrines"? It seems odd that none of the leakers have managed to get a picture of one. I'm beginning to think that they were just removed.
Also: Any sign of a Warp Talons or Raptors datasheet? Or anything pertaining to Night Lords (Legion trait, WLTs, relics, stratagems, anything). C'mon, throw an old Nostroman a bone.
C'mon. Haven't we been disappointed enough ?
I think spiky bits has pictures of the assembly manual stats for both Raptor and Warp talons on their CSM article.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Just reiterating this question again in case anyone missed it, because obviously, it's important:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Question: Has anyone seen a leaked codex page with any of the "Super Doctrines"? It seems odd that none of the leakers have managed to get a picture of one. I'm beginning to think that they were just removed.
Also: Any sign of a Warp Talons or Raptors datasheet? Or anything pertaining to Night Lords (Legion trait, WLTs, relics, stratagems, anything). C'mon, throw an old Nostroman a bone.
C'mon. Haven't we been disappointed enough ?
I think spiky bits has pictures of the assembly manual stats for both Raptor and Warp talons on their CSM article.
No. Rip off the bandaid. Get it over with. And those assembly instructions only show basic stats. I want to know what special rules made it through, if any.
Same for Custom Legion traits, BTW. I want to know if the fallback + charge + shoot one survived.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Just reiterating this question again in case anyone missed it, because obviously, it's important:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Question: Has anyone seen a leaked codex page with any of the "Super Doctrines"? It seems odd that none of the leakers have managed to get a picture of one. I'm beginning to think that they were just removed.
Also: Any sign of a Warp Talons or Raptors datasheet? Or anything pertaining to Night Lords (Legion trait, WLTs, relics, stratagems, anything). C'mon, throw an old Nostroman a bone.
C'mon. Haven't we been disappointed enough ?
I think spiky bits has pictures of the assembly manual stats for both Raptor and Warp talons on their CSM article.
No. Rip off the bandaid. Get it over with. And those assembly instructions only show basic stats. I want to know what special rules made it through, if any.
Same for Custom Legion traits, BTW. I want to know if the fallback + charge + shoot one survived.
Sometimes swift pain is better then agonizing mercy.
If it's any consolation: if ClockWorkChris's pal is right on the money about our favourite deranged murder birds, then 5 attacks per head does look pretty great !
I believe that raptors can take up to 2 plasma pistols or 2 melta guns or 2 plasma guns or any combination that makes 2. The champion can take a plasma pistol. So you could have 3 plasma pistols but the other Raptors would be bolt pistol & chain sword.
Raptors (unit of 5-10)
Chainsword and pistol
Up to 2 special weapons
Up to 2 plasma pistols
Champ
Can take plasma pistol
Power sword or fist
^ This is what chris said when he leaked what raptors do, 2 special, 3 plasma pistols so unless there is a stipulation that you can't take duplicate specials, 2 plasma guns, 3 plasma pistols is possible.
I'm pretty sure that he was typing in shorthand. I'd be willing to bet that there's an "or" between the special weapons and the plasma pistols in the actual rules.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'm pretty sure that he was typing in shorthand. I'd be willing to bet that there's an "or" between the special weapons and the plasma pistols in the actual rules.
ItYou make a good point, since he wrote the rules for the bikers in a similar way can take 2 special and take 2 combi weapons, while in the actual sheet it is do one or the other
Gadzilla666 wrote: Has anyone seen a leaked codex page with any of the "Super Doctrines"? It seems odd that none of the leakers have managed to get a picture of one. I'm beginning to think that they were just
Gadzilla666 wrote: Has anyone seen a leaked codex page with any of the "Super Doctrines"? It seems odd that none of the leakers have managed to get a picture of one. I'm beginning to think that they were just
Do you mean this one?
Spoiler:
Super Doctrines. The subfaction-specific benefits you get for some of the Slaughter.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Has anyone seen a leaked codex page with any of the "Super Doctrines"? It seems odd that none of the leakers have managed to get a picture of one. I'm beginning to think that they were just
Do you mean this one?
Spoiler:
Er, no Daed. According to the leaked playtest doc, each Legion/Renegade warband had a "Super Doctrine" that kicked in when in certain stages of Let the Galaxy Burn. Similar to how loyalist Super Doctrines work. Night Lords, for example, were supposed to get +1 to wound anything L6 or less or below half strength with melee weapons, pistols, or assault weapons in "Wanton Slaughter".
Erm... aren't a lot here a bit too down on the leaks?
From the leaks, we did gain some stuff. I would wait for the codex to be fully out with all the rules, make some lists, play a few games before we rush to condemn the codex.
Some stuff we gained.
1. Stronger stats: All our marines gained 1W, 1 attack at least. Some gained more.
2. More Psykers from that tome. 20 points to get that balefire tome to upgrade someone in a squad to a psyker. We are the only army that just needs to pay 100 more points in order to get 5 base psykers. That .... is amazing. Even just spamming smites, that is 5d3 mortal wounds. Not to mention all the psychic options outside of smite including secondaries and stuff. Nobody seems to be excited about this?
3. Abaddon is an absolute unit. People lost their minds when Morvenn Vahl came out. Abaddon is even stronger. If he is coming at you with friends at his side and you can't deal with him, he will not only punch a hole in your lines, he will murder everything he touches. (Not to mention the awesome buffs he gives out).
4. Our super doctrine "Let the galaxy burn". We didn't have this. Now, we get exploding hits on 6s on all sorts of types of guns, melee, etc. And that's a huge boost to damage output. They even added 2 automatic hits to our flamers because they can't roll for exploding hits.
5. Our psychic list is amazing. Not just our regular psychic list. Have you seen the Malefic discipline? There are at least 4 psychic on that discipline that I want to have almost every game.
6. Our new Marks. I don't see anyone talk about the new marks here. The new marks alone can make for different lists. Plus... if we want to min max, and run different units with different marks... its going to be very powerful. Consider... Mark of Tzeentch makes the first failed save become zero every turn. That's a massive durability boost. You can throw this on any long high point target that might attract melta gun or lascannon fire and it will reduce the first failed save to zero. Put this on Obliterators, or terminators, or even Havocs sitting in cover. And you have other marks doing different things. Khorne marks hit so hard, slanaash marks fights first. So put it all together... Heavy support units with Tzeentch marks, power combat units up front fighting with slanaash or khorne marks. Nurgle marks on back objective holder units.
There are probably more I missed out. But I already listed six here. So, can we stop with all the negativity and doom and gloom please?
One last thing, can we take the discussion about GW making weapon/other rules as per models in the box to a separate thread. This is a trend GW has been moving towards over the entire edition. Its not limited to just our CSM codex.
From the leaks, we did gain some stuff. I would wait for the codex to be fully out with all the rules, make some lists, play a few games before we rush to condemn the codex.
Some stuff we gained.
1. Stronger stats: All our marines gained 1W, 1 attack at least. Some gained more.
2. More Psykers from that tome. 20 points to get that balefire tome to upgrade someone in a squad to a psyker. We are the only army that just needs to pay 100 more points in order to get 5 base psykers. That .... is amazing. Even just spamming smites, that is 5d3 mortal wounds. Not to mention all the psychic options outside of smite including secondaries and stuff. Nobody seems to be excited about this?
3. Abaddon is an absolute unit. People lost their minds when Morvenn Vahl came out. Abaddon is even stronger. If he is coming at you with friends at his side and you can't deal with him, he will not only punch a hole in your lines, he will murder everything he touches. (Not to mention the awesome buffs he gives out).
4. Our super doctrine "Let the galaxy burn". We didn't have this. Now, we get exploding hits on 6s on all sorts of types of guns, melee, etc. And that's a huge boost to damage output. They even added 2 automatic hits to our flamers because they can't roll for exploding hits.
5. Our psychic list is amazing. Not just our regular psychic list. Have you seen the Malefic discipline? There are at least 4 psychic on that discipline that I want to have almost every game.
6. Our new Marks. I don't see anyone talk about the new marks here. The new marks alone can make for different lists. Plus... if we want to min max, and run different units with different marks... its going to be very powerful. Consider... Mark of Tzeentch makes the first failed save become zero every turn. That's a massive durability boost. You can throw this on any long high point target that might attract melta gun or lascannon fire and it will reduce the first failed save to zero. Put this on Obliterators, or terminators, or even Havocs sitting in cover. And you have other marks doing different things. Khorne marks hit so hard, slanaash marks fights first. So put it all together... Heavy support units with Tzeentch marks, power combat units up front fighting with slanaash or khorne marks. Nurgle marks on back objective holder units.
There are probably more I missed out. But I already listed six here. So, can we stop with all the negativity and doom and gloom please?
One last thing, can we take the discussion about GW making weapon/other rules as per models in the box to a separate thread. This is a trend GW has been moving towards over the entire edition. Its not limited to just our CSM codex.
1) This would've been exciting three years ago.
As-is, GW published "Get you by" PDFs for Dark Angels, Space Wolves, all those special Loyalist Marines... But took three years to give CSM two wounds. The bonus attacks are nice, admittedly, but the second wound? Too late.
2) That's around 6 mortal wounds on average. Unfocused mortal wounds to boot.
3) Yeah, Abaddon is great! What if I don't run Black Legion?
4) That's the CSM Doctrine, not Super Doctrine. And compared to Loyalists... It's a flat 25% boost (33% if suffering from a -1 hit penalty, 20% if hitting on a 2+) as compared to the more conditional but often superior bonus AP.
For reference, going from a 2+ to a 3+ doubles damage. 3+ to 4+, 50% more. 4+ to 5+, 33% more. About the only targets that the CSM Doctrine beats the Loyalist version would be models that ignore all the AP.
5) I haven't seen the disciplines-so no comment.
6) The Marks are decent, I'll grant that.
But here's the thing-even if CSM end up being tournament-stompingly powerful, the Codex is STILL garbage. It's designed badly. It's inconsistent. It lacks customization. It's a complete mess.
3) Yeah, Abaddon is great! What if I don't run Black Legion?
Not that your points aren't valid, but isn't Abaddon technically available to any legion now? I thought his rules now let you take him in any chaos army without a penalty
3) Yeah, Abaddon is great! What if I don't run Black Legion?
Not that your points aren't valid, but isn't Abaddon technically available to any legion now? I thought his rules now let you take him in any chaos army without a penalty
True-but he's still out of place in a non-BL army.
Hell, even in a Black Legion army, it stinks to have to take a unique character.
ClockworkZion wrote: Since it's "too late" for our second wound I guess we should just return it then.
Too late for it to be considered good.
Staying at one wound would be even worse.
I don't know about that. In a game where multi-damage is the meta having a single wound, and being cheaper, isn't a bad thing.
Now that aside, while I won't try and tell people how to feel about the book I will say that we seem to be straying into hyperbole about the book. Yes, the book doesn't look like it'll be the next Drukhari codex, but at the same time the faction has definitely gotten a buff in terms of general power output. I admit my expectations are lower for what this codex will bring as a Night Lords player though so like I said: I am not trying to tell people how to feel about this update.
And since some people haven't seen them: psychic powers and prayers:
Eldenfirefly wrote: From the leaks, we did gain some stuff. I would wait for the codex to be fully out with all the rules, make some lists, play a few games before we rush to condemn the codex.
It's not about power. It's never been about power. Ever since this travesty birthed its way into the world, it's been about the ever-shrinking levels of options and thematic customisability that Chaos loses with each and every book.
It started with our Daemons, and over time we've lost more and more. Now they've come for our Cult Troops (among other things) and they've given us a bevvy of massively inconsistent wargear rules.
Eldenfirefly wrote: One last thing, can we take the discussion about GW making weapon/other rules as per models in the box to a separate thread. This is a trend GW has been moving towards over the entire edition. Its not limited to just our CSM codex
But it's never been so egregious as in this Chaos Codex, because it's never been applied with such an appalling level of inconsistency.
To quote a post from earlier in this thread (apologies to the person who posted it, I lost the name):
Depending on datasheet, a chainaxe might be a chainaxe, heavy chainaxe, tainted chainaxe, or an accursed weapon.
Depending on datasheet, a power weapon might be a power-sword/axe/maul, or it might be an accursed weapon.
Depending on datasheet, a powerfist might be a powerfist, or it might be an accursed weapon.
Depending on datasheet, you might have access to special and/or heavy weapons - sometimes you can freely pick, other times you cannot take duplicates.
So no, it doesn't belong in a different thread. No, just because it's a trend right now doesn't make it something not worth discussing here. It's bad in other books. It's worse here.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Has anyone seen a leaked codex page with any of the "Super Doctrines"? It seems odd that none of the leakers have managed to get a picture of one. I'm beginning to think that they were just
Do you mean this one?
Spoiler:
Er, no Daed. According to the leaked playtest doc, each Legion/Renegade warband had a "Super Doctrine" that kicked in when in certain stages of Let the Galaxy Burn. Similar to how loyalist Super Doctrines work. Night Lords, for example, were supposed to get +1 to wound anything L6 or less or below half strength with melee weapons, pistols, or assault weapons in "Wanton Slaughter".
Oh. See. I kicked caffeine and shouldn't have. 0/3 today!
3) Yeah, Abaddon is great! What if I don't run Black Legion?
Not that your points aren't valid, but isn't Abaddon technically available to any legion now? I thought his rules now let you take him in any chaos army without a penalty
True-but he's still out of place in a non-BL army.
Hell, even in a Black Legion army, it stinks to have to take a unique character.
Give him rules for shooting Talos and he'll fit into a NL army.
GaroRobe wrote: Not that your points aren't valid, but isn't Abaddon technically available to any legion now? I thought his rules now let you take him in any chaos army without a penalty
A lot of us don't like taking special characters. A lot of us prefer to our Our Dudes™ rather than Someone Else's Dudes™ in their army. The more options GW removes, the harder that becomes.
GaroRobe wrote: Not that your points aren't valid, but isn't Abaddon technically available to any legion now? I thought his rules now let you take him in any chaos army without a penalty
A lot of us don't like taking special characters. A lot of us prefer to our Our Dudes™ rather than Someone Else's Dudes™ in their army. The more options GW removes, the harder that becomes.
I miss the days when named characters weren't subfaction locked so they could be used as the rules for your dude while you kitbash or convert the model proper.
Basically like the named characters were archetypes.
GaroRobe wrote: Not that your points aren't valid, but isn't Abaddon technically available to any legion now? I thought his rules now let you take him in any chaos army without a penalty
A lot of us don't like taking special characters. A lot of us prefer to our Our Dudes™ rather than Someone Else's Dudes™ in their army. The more options GW removes, the harder that becomes.
I miss the days when named characters weren't subfaction locked so they could be used as the rules for your dude while you kitbash or convert the model proper.
Basically like the named characters were archetypes.
Plus he looks like he'll be bonkers good. And not the kind of good that feels good either for the opponent or myself.
GaroRobe wrote: Not that your points aren't valid, but isn't Abaddon technically available to any legion now? I thought his rules now let you take him in any chaos army without a penalty
A lot of us don't like taking special characters. A lot of us prefer to our Our Dudes™ rather than Someone Else's Dudes™ in their army. The more options GW removes, the harder that becomes.
I miss the days when named characters weren't subfaction locked so they could be used as the rules for your dude while you kitbash or convert the model proper.
Basically like the named characters were archetypes.
Plus he looks like he'll be bonkers good. And not the kind of good that feels good either for the opponent or myself.
I mean for 300 points you kind of hope he'd be that good.
GaroRobe wrote: Not that your points aren't valid, but isn't Abaddon technically available to any legion now? I thought his rules now let you take him in any chaos army without a penalty
A lot of us don't like taking special characters. A lot of us prefer to our Our Dudes™ rather than Someone Else's Dudes™ in their army. The more options GW removes, the harder that becomes.
And now GW is limiting CP and Warlord Traits and Relics because.......reasons!
ClockworkZion wrote: Since it's "too late" for our second wound I guess we should just return it then.
Too late for it to be considered good.
Staying at one wound would be even worse.
I gotta disagree. I'd rather have an extra attack and be absurdly cheap (we were already almost at Sister levels after all) than what has happened now.
Also if you want to take an allied Dreadblade you're out of luck with Abaddon RAW since they both get Agents fo Chaos.
Definitely not RAI, but since when has Games Workshop ever been able to properly proofread their rules...
I'm not really down. Just annoyed by some of the bizarre choices.
I like the marks. I like the tome. I like the explosions. Obliterators are solid. Lots of blanks on other stuff still so no way to judge VC, Discolord, Havoks, traits, strats, etc.
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: Plus he looks like he'll be bonkers good. And not the kind of good that feels good either for the opponent or myself.
I mean for 300 points you kind of hope he'd be that good.
Yeah but I get what Dread is saying: He looks good, like 'take in every list ever' good. Like a new Trajann.
That's unhealthy.
Yep. With everything that entails: omnipresence on the competitive scene, lack of list diversity in tournament, imitation on the local scene by competitive minded folks, resentment from other players toward people runing CSM, heavy-handed nerfs overcorrecting from GW much too late, etc...
Just speculating of course. Might be worrying for nothing
Erm... aren't a lot here a bit too down on the leaks?
From the leaks, we did gain some stuff. I would wait for the codex to be fully out with all the rules, make some lists, play a few games before we rush to condemn the codex.
Some stuff we gained.
1. Stronger stats: All our marines gained 1W, 1 attack at least. Some gained more.
2. More Psykers from that tome. 20 points to get that balefire tome to upgrade someone in a squad to a psyker. We are the only army that just needs to pay 100 more points in order to get 5 base psykers. That .... is amazing. Even just spamming smites, that is 5d3 mortal wounds. Not to mention all the psychic options outside of smite including secondaries and stuff. Nobody seems to be excited about this?
3. Abaddon is an absolute unit. People lost their minds when Morvenn Vahl came out. Abaddon is even stronger. If he is coming at you with friends at his side and you can't deal with him, he will not only punch a hole in your lines, he will murder everything he touches. (Not to mention the awesome buffs he gives out).
4. Our super doctrine "Let the galaxy burn". We didn't have this. Now, we get exploding hits on 6s on all sorts of types of guns, melee, etc. And that's a huge boost to damage output. They even added 2 automatic hits to our flamers because they can't roll for exploding hits.
5. Our psychic list is amazing. Not just our regular psychic list. Have you seen the Malefic discipline? There are at least 4 psychic on that discipline that I want to have almost every game.
6. Our new Marks. I don't see anyone talk about the new marks here. The new marks alone can make for different lists. Plus... if we want to min max, and run different units with different marks... its going to be very powerful. Consider... Mark of Tzeentch makes the first failed save become zero every turn. That's a massive durability boost. You can throw this on any long high point target that might attract melta gun or lascannon fire and it will reduce the first failed save to zero. Put this on Obliterators, or terminators, or even Havocs sitting in cover. And you have other marks doing different things. Khorne marks hit so hard, slanaash marks fights first. So put it all together... Heavy support units with Tzeentch marks, power combat units up front fighting with slanaash or khorne marks. Nurgle marks on back objective holder units.
There are probably more I missed out. But I already listed six here. So, can we stop with all the negativity and doom and gloom please?
One last thing, can we take the discussion about GW making weapon/other rules as per models in the box to a separate thread. This is a trend GW has been moving towards over the entire edition. Its not limited to just our CSM codex.
1: Yes, nice. Took them damned well long enough though.
2:Yeah, sure. Great. All of the Legions are Thousand Sons now. Pretty weird that making one model a psyker used to be a thing for Chosen. But, hey! They get to pick their own custom tra........ehhhh, whoops. Never mind. We got baby Sorcerers for CSM squads, instead of Veteran Skills for our Veterans.
3:Ok, without even getting into whether or not people who play Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, etc want a Black Legion character in their armies, or even want to run a named character in the first place, you do realize how bad it is for a faction to hinge on a single unit, right? One swing of the Nerf Bat from gw and......blam. He's useless. Overpriced. Gw have no qualms about cranking a unit's price up by more than 50% in a single CA. Trust me.
4: JNAPRODUCTIONS covered this one pretty well from a competitive standpoint, but thematically it's also pretty insulting. The best that they could come up with for CSM was a more random (because Chaos = random. Hur dur. Thanks gw /s) version of loyalist rules? That shows how little thought went into this mess.
5: Warpime, Diabolic Strength, and all 3 of the God aligned powers got nerfed. Yay. /s
6: Having Marks that actually do something is nice. Glad they finally managed to work that out.
And no, we're not going to stop complaining about the idiotic and inconsistent ways that they've screwed up our units options. The fact that they've done it to other factions only makes it WORSE. They need to stop. Period.
ClockworkZion wrote: Since it's "too late" for our second wound I guess we should just return it then.
Too late for it to be considered good.
Staying at one wound would be even worse.
I don't know about that. In a game where multi-damage is the meta having a single wound, and being cheaper, isn't a bad thing.
Now that aside, while I won't try and tell people how to feel about the book I will say that we seem to be straying into hyperbole about the book. Yes, the book doesn't look like it'll be the next Drukhari codex, but at the same time the faction has definitely gotten a buff in terms of general power output. I admit my expectations are lower for what this codex will bring as a Night Lords player though so like I said: I am not trying to tell people how to feel about this update.
Would you stop with this "I expect bad rules because I'm starting a Night Lords army" stuff? Night Lords don't have to have, or expect, bad rules. We had good rules in 3.5, Traitor Legions, and Faith and Fury. And I really can't understand how you can think that after seeing our HH rules.
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: Plus he looks like he'll be bonkers good. And not the kind of good that feels good either for the opponent or myself.
Don't get me wrong - he's awesome, but I don't think he's the game breaker people make him out to be.
He deepstrikes and moves 6" after that. Concede the flank, run chaff up to his face and don't give him bonus charge movement. Shoot the units around him and let him hold objectives on his own.
Daedalus81 wrote: Don't get me wrong - he's awesome, but I don't think he's the game breaker people make him out to be.
Two men stood in the jungle, and suddenly realised that a tiger was approaching them, hunger in its eyes. One of the men started putting on a pair of very advanced sneakers.
"Umm... you're not going to outrun the tiger with those!" said the first man. "I know that. I just need to outrun you!" said the other.
To put it another way, Dooby needn't be a "game breaker". He just has to be good enough that taking any other option in the book (outside of what you have to take due to compulsory choices) isn't worthwhile. That's the danger with a character like him. That's what makes character ubiquitous, where people bring them to every game regardless.
Hell, in our games from 9th from two weeks ago, the guy playing Custodes, who has never played Custodes with us, and doesn't even own Trajann, still brought him using Counts As. That kind of ubiquity isn't good for the game, IMO.
ClockworkZion wrote: Night Lords have leadership gimmicks in a game that makes it easy to negate leadership. I keep my expectations low because of it.
HH definitely does NL better.
We've only been stuck with "leadership gimmicks" and nothing else from the 8th edition codex onwards. And out of 6 Warlord traits, 8 stratagems, and 6 relics in Faith and Fury, only one strategem and one relic fit that bill. They can do better. Trust me.
Daedalus81 wrote: Don't get me wrong - he's awesome, but I don't think he's the game breaker people make him out to be.
Two men stood in the jungle, and suddenly realised that a tiger was approaching them, hunger in its eyes. One of the men started putting on a pair of very advanced sneakers.
"Umm... you're not going to outrun the tiger with those!" said the first man.
"I know that. I just need to outrun you!" said the other.
To put it another way, Dooby needn't be a "game breaker". He just has to be good enough that taking any other option in the book (outside of what you have to take due to compulsory choices) isn't worthwhile.
Only matters if you want efficiency over everything else. If I ever pick him up it'll only be for a painting project.
ClockworkZion wrote: Night Lords have leadership gimmicks in a game that makes it easy to negate leadership. I keep my expectations low because of it.
HH definitely does NL better.
We've only been stuck with "leadership gimmicks" and nothing else from the 8th edition codex onwards. And out of 6 Warlord traits, 8 stratagems, and 6 relics in Faith and Fury, only one strategem and one relic fit that bill. They can do better. Trust me.
I'm not saying they can't do better, I'm saying I don't have my hopes up that they will do better. The train wreck that were Sisters codex updates from 5th through 7th taught me to never grt my hopes up. Play because you enjoy your army's theme or playstyle, don't play them because they're strong basically.
ClockworkZion wrote: Night Lords have leadership gimmicks in a game that makes it easy to negate leadership. I keep my expectations low because of it.
HH definitely does NL better.
We've only been stuck with "leadership gimmicks" and nothing else from the 8th edition codex onwards. And out of 6 Warlord traits, 8 stratagems, and 6 relics in Faith and Fury, only one strategem and one relic fit that bill. They can do better. Trust me.
I'm not saying they can't do better, I'm saying I don't have my hopes up that they will do better. The train wreck that were Sisters codex updates from 5th through 7th taught me to never grt my hopes up. Play because you enjoy your army's theme or playstyle, don't play them because they're strong basically.
Ok, that's a good attitude to have. But when I started playing Night Lords 20 years ago, their playstyle was hit and run tactics (they even told you that in the codex). And then in 8th, gw said "Nah, you're SCARY! BOOH!".
And I want my old rules back. That's why I'm so interested in whether or not that "fallback + charge + shoot" custom trait survived into the codex. If it did, I can make my whole army do what only my Raptors could back then. And if Warp Talons really stop other units from falling back (which is why I want to see that datasheet)? Then game on.
ClockworkZion wrote: Only matters if you want efficiency over everything else...
Which is precisely the context we're talking about, hence:
"Yep. With everything that entails: omnipresence on the competitive scene, lack of list diversity in tournament, imitation on the local scene by competitive minded folks, resentment from other players toward people runing CSM, heavy-handed nerfs overcorrecting from GW much too late, etc.."
ClockworkZion wrote: Only matters if you want efficiency over everything else...
Which is precisely the context we're talking about, hence:
"Yep. With everything that entails: omnipresence on the competitive scene, lack of list diversity in tournament, imitation on the local scene by competitive minded folks, resentment from other players toward people runing CSM, heavy-handed nerfs overcorrecting from GW much too late, etc.."
My point was that I don't think he'll be in every single CSM.
We'll see I guess. I admit I've been looking at getting one to paint in the scheme if his 2nd ed art with the red right hand, but I have no desire to run him so maybe it's just my own biases making him feel less exciting.
ClockworkZion wrote: Only matters if you want efficiency over everything else...
Which is precisely the context we're talking about, hence:
"Yep. With everything that entails: omnipresence on the competitive scene, lack of list diversity in tournament, imitation on the local scene by competitive minded folks, resentment from other players toward people runing CSM, heavy-handed nerfs overcorrecting from GW much too late, etc.."
My point was that I don't think he'll be in every single CSM.
We'll see I guess. I admit I've been looking at getting one to paint in the scheme if his 2nd ed art with the red right hand, but I have no desire to run him so maybe it's just my own biases making him feel less exciting.
You're right, he won't be in every CSM list. He won't be in mine. But I don't go to tournaments. Sadly, GW only seems to understand how to take feedback from tournaments. They see things that are overperforming and they nerf them, sometimes very heavily and sometimes with repercussions on factions that weren't even abusing the rule (flyers, etc).
There will be tournament-level CSM lists that don't take Abaddon, because of course people will find other things to take advantage of, but that's assuming that CSM is competitive in its current iteration. Time will tell.
As a casual player, I don't like the trickle-down-effect that happens in Warhammer 40k, where one busted thing can end up ruining the experience for a lot of people going all the way down to the casual meta, and can even effect factions that the nerf or buff wasn't even intended to touch.
ClockworkZion wrote: Only matters if you want efficiency over everything else...
Which is precisely the context we're talking about, hence:
"Yep. With everything that entails: omnipresence on the competitive scene, lack of list diversity in tournament, imitation on the local scene by competitive minded folks, resentment from other players toward people runing CSM, heavy-handed nerfs overcorrecting from GW much too late, etc.."
My point was that I don't think he'll be in every single CSM.
We'll see I guess. I admit I've been looking at getting one to paint in the scheme if his 2nd ed art with the red right hand, but I have no desire to run him so maybe it's just my own biases making him feel less exciting.
You're right, he won't be in every CSM list. He won't be in mine. But I don't go to tournaments. Sadly, GW only seems to understand how to take feedback from tournaments. They see things that are overperforming and they nerf them, sometimes very heavily and sometimes with repercussions on factions that weren't even abusing the rule (flyers, etc).
There will be tournament-level CSM lists that don't take Abaddon, because of course people will find other things to take advantage of, but that's assuming that CSM is competitive in its current iteration. Time will tell.
As a casual player, I don't like the trickle-down-effect that happens in Warhammer 40k, where one busted thing can end up ruining the experience for a lot of people going all the way down to the casual meta, and can even effect factions that the nerf or buff wasn't even intended to touch.
I agree GW has a problem this edition. The game revolves so much around competetive they don't even bother to run articles on the Narrative events they've been running at the US Open. No articles on narrative missions, no narrative battle reports, ect.
I don't mind that the want to make the sandbox side of the game less the face of the game if it makes it easier for people to get into the game, but to ignore it constantly? That's silly.
drbored wrote: You're right, he won't be in every CSM list. He won't be in mine. But I don't go to tournaments. Sadly, GW only seems to understand how to take feedback from tournaments. They see things that are overperforming and they nerf them, sometimes very heavily and sometimes with repercussions on factions that weren't even abusing the rule (flyers, etc).
Exactly!
Dooby ain't going to be part of my lists, unless I'm playing some scenario where it's appropriate for him to show up.
But if he's an ubiquitous tournament pick, then this will, as you put it, have a "trickle-down" effect on the rest of the game, because this is 40k Tournament Edition and that appears to be all GW cares about, even going so far as to outright murder their highly inventive and fun "Chapter Approved" series in favour of bi-yearly tournament update documents and "Balance Dataslates" that stem from tournament results.
drbored wrote: As a casual player, I don't like the trickle-down-effect that happens in Warhammer 40k, where one busted thing can end up ruining the experience for a lot of people going all the way down to the casual meta, and can even effect factions that the nerf or buff wasn't even intended to touch.
I'm not a fan of what's about to happen to my Tyranids because of some people in the US taking them in combos I either have never thought of or never would take (and also somewhat because GW can't write rules - I mean anyone with a brain could see the Harpy was going to be an issue, tournament or no! ). But now my Hive Tyranids, where I've never taken a "Reaper of Obliterwhatever", and my Tyranid Warriors, where I've not got a single modern Warrior model with the double boneswords/deathspitter combo (in fact most of them have the now-largely-useless quad-scythe combo), and my Maleceptor, who I've never even had a chance to use, all get to suffer points increases because of some tournament games. Cool. That's awesome.
I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.
Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.
Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.
Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.
So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).
Rydria wrote: Noise marines should be allowed to take sonic blasters for free so they are 21pts with their signature weapon.
It's absolutely crazy to me that noise marines are the same cost as Rubic Marines who get a aspiring sorcerer squad leader and vastly superior bolter for the same price.
Maybe we're paying a premium per marine because the blastmaster itself is so powerful ?
I wouldn't get to hung up on the points those will change the rules on the other hand are here for years. On the Blastmaster they probably screwed up again an forgot we could take two, they did the same with the Chaos Index as I recall and gave back after we bitched about it.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.
Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.
Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.
Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.
So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).
Voss wrote: Shame they didn't follow through with actually releasing them. ;\
I'd give GW a lot more credit if they actually acknowledged the mess.
Instead we get articles like this, which was obviously pre-written to the point that it doesn't even acknowledge the release date they just announced.
today wrote:Plunge the galaxy into a fiery doom when Codex: Chaos Space Marines arrives for pre-order soon, and stay tuned to Warhammer-Community.com for more juicy reveals as we get closer to release day.
yesterday wrote:Everything featured will all be available to pre-order from this coming Saturday. We kick things off in the most darkly-grim corner of the grim darkness of the far future – the Eye of Terror.
This to me just reiterates they're panic-dropping the book for some reason.
i reckon they somewhere messed up the timetable, printed too early, got feedback that their new codex stinks, not necessarily from a rulesperspective but from a designperspective (which is worse, since you can buff rules and wargear / models but not fix overarching design) and are just throwing it out in the hopes that it wont cut into their sales figures.
I think the new marketing was collecting feedback, and saw the constant angry remarks about missing options in kits.
When Death Guard dropped, they got the first taste of negative feedback- they'd misunderstood and gone the wrong way (people wanted more in the kits, not to be restricted to the kit- they took it as a envy/barrier to entry issue, not a "ripoff" issue), but they were already committed to the new paradigm for the next two years. A lot of CSM players weighed in on that.
Horus Heresy shows them testing the opposite strategy- bolt-on kits.
I think they're trying to "hide" this release in their HH numbers rather thsn fess up they screwed the pooch for an entire faction
EDIT: On reflection, I'm going to guess that marketing wants to reverse course, but someone in the design studio knows that making units uniform- and the basic army building block, not the model- is how they get the community to accept power level.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.
Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.
Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.
Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.
So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).
Ok, this isn't a shot at you, or your overall point, Eldenfirefly, but, I have to point out:
Abbadon will be just as able to keep up with those Raptors and Warp Talons as any other character in the codex now.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.
Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.
Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.
Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.
So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).
I can't tell if this was a serious post or not
Why isn't it a serious post?
Consider a Iron warrior's demon engine list.
A IW lord of skulls is 600 points. And then 3 more venom crawlers for another 330 points. Throw in another 3 heavy support daemon engines and you are at 1500 points at least. Put in the obligatory 3 troop choices and now you are at 1700? And then you want at least 1 MOP, maybe even two? And a lord discordant would probably work better than Abby in such a list and he is 175 points. Also, where is the synergy of Abby in such a list? He is moving up the board at 6 inches while all your daemon engines are going at least 10 inches or even 12 inches. What is he using his buffs on in such a list? a squad of CSM?
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: I only caught it just now. Music of the apocalypse wasn't deleted. It was replace with a stratagem. An EC only one at that...
Not quite, its basically the "Fueled by Sensation" EC rule from Traitor Legions. Fight after death if you haven't fought yet. Sadly, no shooting upon death.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.
Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.
Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.
Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.
So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).
I can't tell if this was a serious post or not
Why isn't it a serious post?
Consider a Iron warrior's demon engine list.
A IW lord of skulls is 600 points. And then 3 more venom crawlers for another 330 points. Throw in another 3 heavy support daemon engines and you are at 1500 points at least. Put in the obligatory 3 troop choices and now you are at 1700? And then you want at least 1 MOP, maybe even two? And a lord discordant would probably work better than Abby in such a list and he is 175 points. Also, where is the synergy of Abby in such a list? He is moving up the board at 6 inches while all your daemon engines are going at least 10 inches or even 12 inches. What is he using his buffs on in such a list? a squad of CSM?
If you're already doing a silly ass "pure daemon engine" list you're not relegated to the 3 mandatory troop choices. Just run one of the more specialized detachments. And you don't even NEED his buffs. He's already a stupid combat monster as is, and one that I'd argue is on par with Knights except more durable due to not taking more than 3 wounds per phase.
Also we haven't seen the Lord Of Skulls dataslate but $5 says it's bad.
I wouldn't pay 3CP to run a spearhead detachment when I only start with 6CP. I would rather take a 150 point "tax" and run 3 cultist squads and at least have the option to do "raise the banners" secondary if I need to.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.
Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.
Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.
Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.
So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).
Ok, this isn't a shot at you, or your overall point, Eldenfirefly, but, I have to point out:
Abbadon will be just as able to keep up with those Raptors and Warp Talons as any other character in the codex now.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.
Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.
Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.
Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.
So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).
Ok, this isn't a shot at you, or your overall point, Eldenfirefly, but, I have to point out:
Abbadon will be just as able to keep up with those Raptors and Warp Talons as any other character in the codex now.
No more jump packs, remember?
Daemon Prince with Wings.
Oh, right. I always forget about those, because I've never once considered putting one in my Night Lords in 20 years. But yeah, might work for other people.
We seem to be going in circles sometimes. I list down 6 points trying to focus on the more positive aspects on what we gained. And people say that making Abby too powerful will make it auto include for every CSM list, and that's not healthy.
So I explain why I don't think Abby is auto include in every CSM list out there.
Now you say its not the point being made here ...
I am not trying to answer every thing people say on this thread. That was never my intention to begin with. I am just trying to look at some of the more positive things we gained, instead of focusing only on massive amount of negativity I see on this thread.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.
Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.
Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.
Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.
So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).
Ok, this isn't a shot at you, or your overall point, Eldenfirefly, but, I have to point out:
Abbadon will be just as able to keep up with those Raptors and Warp Talons as any other character in the codex now.
No more jump packs, remember?
Daemon Prince with Wings.
Oh, right. I always forget about those, because I've never once considered putting one in my Night Lords in 20 years. But yeah, might work for other people.
Well, if a flying demon prince is not for you. Haarken World Claimer also has jump packs. Maybe he will have the agent of chaos rule as well so he can fit fine in a Night Lords army. We will have to wait for his rules to come out when the new codex drops, which is soon.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I wouldn't pay 3CP to run a spearhead detachment when I only start with 6CP. I would rather take a 150 point "tax" and run 3 cultist squads and at least have the option to do "raise the banners" secondary if I need to.
You do realize we're 100% going to get the same Cultist restrictions that Death Guard and Thousand Sons get, right?
Eldenfirefly wrote: And people say that making Abby too powerful will make it auto include for every CSM list, and that's not healthy.
Did anyone actually say that? That he'd be included in every list?
The comment was about ubiquity*. If Dooby is so good that he starts to become ubiquitous in tournament lists, then that's the unhealthy part. Trajann is an ubiquitous, but that doesn't mean that everyone who plays Custodes brings him in every list.
The same applies to the so-called Master of Chaos. I wouldn't necessarily bring him. You might not necessarily bring him. But if enough of the tournament crowd do then it will have, as stated, a trickle-down effect, and not a good one.
*"But ubiquity means everywhere!" It can also mean "very common". Context is king.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, if a flying demon prince is not for you. Haarken World Claimer also has jump packs. Maybe he will have the agent of chaos rule as well so he can fit fine in a Night Lords army. We will have to wait for his rules to come out when the new codex drops, which is soon.
Something tells me that if a Daemon Prince isn't his bag, then a Black Legion character who's yet to figure out how to use his spear in melee won't be a good replacement in his Night Lords army.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.
Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.
Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.
Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.
So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).
Ok, this isn't a shot at you, or your overall point, Eldenfirefly, but, I have to point out:
Abbadon will be just as able to keep up with those Raptors and Warp Talons as any other character in the codex now.
No more jump packs, remember?
Daemon Prince with Wings.
Oh, right. I always forget about those, because I've never once considered putting one in my Night Lords in 20 years. But yeah, might work for other people.
I mean some people liked the Exalted from the books, and it's a good way to represent him.
From the leaks, we did gain some stuff. I would wait for the codex to be fully out with all the rules, make some lists, play a few games before we rush to condemn the codex.
1. Wow. Still not enough.
2. Great, more MW spam is what the game needs.
3. I don't see where Abby is worth 300 points in a non BL army.
4. Wow, we get doctrines, when a 6 is rolled. That every 6th dice roll. Loyalists always get their doctrines, no matter what they roll. My dice only roll a 6 on every 10-15 rolls, so I'm very excited about that.
5. I see two amazing powers, warptime and prescience.
6. Termis and oblits can't get marks, I don't know about havoc's.
None of the datasheets that have leaked say the models can take Marks, so marks are likely listed somewhere else than the datasheets. We know they all cost 15 points but nothing else.
Is the CSM codex too OP because Abby is in it? or is it too trash because of all the complaints listed in this thread for like multiple pages? Or is it just "not the CSM codex I wanted" hence I am gonna hate it on principle?
Eldenfirefly wrote: I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.
Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.
Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.
Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.
So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).
Ok, this isn't a shot at you, or your overall point, Eldenfirefly, but, I have to point out:
Abbadon will be just as able to keep up with those Raptors and Warp Talons as any other character in the codex now.
No more jump packs, remember?
Daemon Prince with Wings.
Oh, right. I always forget about those, because I've never once considered putting one in my Night Lords in 20 years. But yeah, might work for other people.
Well, if a flying demon prince is not for you. Haarken World Claimer also has jump packs. Maybe he will have the agent of chaos rule as well so he can fit fine in a Night Lords army. We will have to wait for his rules to come out when the new codex drops, which is soon.
No. I don't want a Black Legion character in my Night Lords army. Much less a Black Legion character that got into the Black Legion by defecting from the 8th Legion. Yeah, no. I want to use my Clawlord, same as I've been doing for the last 2 decades. I want to play my Guys, not their Guys
Eldenfirefly wrote: I don't think Abaddon is a must have in every CSM list. What if you are going Iron warriors demon engine heavy list? Not sure you need Abby in such a list. Warp smith, masters of possession and/or Lord discordant are probably better in such a list.
Emperor's Children lists going with noise marines would probably go with Lucious instead of Abaddon. Cheaper and fights extremely well too.
Psychic heavy lists going all out balefire tome would want as many psykers are they can cram in, instead of Abby who is not a psyker.
Or a Night Lord's list, going heavy on raptors, warp talons. How would Abby fit in such a list? not sure really. All your main units are on jump packs flying 12 inches per turn, and then you have Abby plodding away at 6 inches per turn. He simply won't be able to keep up.
So, I don't think Abby is so auto include. Don't get me wrong, he is really good, but he may not fit the playstyle of some CSM lists I can already think of. He is 300 points. You simply can't have him only as a potential counter charge and buffer. He is too expensive for that. He needs to be the lynchpin of your army strategy. And for some armies, it would be a challenge for him to be such a lynchpin because of the playstyle of that list. (like some examples I showed above).
Ok, this isn't a shot at you, or your overall point, Eldenfirefly, but, I have to point out:
Abbadon will be just as able to keep up with those Raptors and Warp Talons as any other character in the codex now.
No more jump packs, remember?
Daemon Prince with Wings.
Oh, right. I always forget about those, because I've never once considered putting one in my Night Lords in 20 years. But yeah, might work for other people.
I mean some people liked the Exalted from the books, and it's a good way to represent him.
Ok, good for them. But Vandred was Possessed, not a Daemon Prince. Krieg Acerbus is the Night Lords Daemon Prince that shows up in a BL novel. (Seriously Zion, read Lord of the Night. You'll dig it .)
None of the datasheets that have leaked say the models can take Marks, so marks are likely listed somewhere else than the datasheets. We know they all cost 15 points but nothing else.
I'm guessing that anything with CHAOS UNDIVIDED in its FACTION KEYWORDS can take a Mark. That way, you replace CHAOS UNDIVIDED with KHORNE, NURGLE, TZEENTCH, or SLAANESH. It's just a guess, though.
Ok, good for them. But Vandred was Possessed, not a Daemon Prince. Krieg Acerbus is the Night Lords Daemon Prince that shows up in a BL novel. (Seriously Zion, read Lord of the Night. You'll dig it .)
I mean there is the Painted Count from the HH as well.
Either way I've got two Praetors to run as possible Chaos Lords and if the jump pack one doesn't work the Terminator one at least fits the bill.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Is the CSM codex too OP because Abby is in it? or is it too trash because of all the complaints listed in this thread for like multiple pages? Or is it just "not the CSM codex I wanted" hence I am gonna hate it on principle?
Mate, if you ain't gonna listen to what people have been saying, then why bother replying in the first place?
None of the datasheets that have leaked say the models can take Marks, so marks are likely listed somewhere else than the datasheets. We know they all cost 15 points but nothing else.
I'm guessing that anything with CHAOS UNDIVIDED in its FACTION KEYWORDS can take a Mark. That way, you replace CHAOS UNDIVIDED with KHORNE, NURGLE, TZEENTCH, or SLAANESH. It's just a guess, though.
That's my assumption as well. I'm also assuming Marks are paid on a per-unit basis.
Looking at the top of the Chosen leak we can see the bottom of the Possessed sheet, and it looks like they don't have Chaos Undivided but curiously they don't have to buy a Mark, so I wonder if that's accounted for in unit cost already.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Random Theory Time: Marks of Chaos will let units get access to other parts of the Let the Galaxy Burn table even off turn. This guess is based on the fact the rules for the different phases call out the ability for units to get bonuses out of phase, and the Legion traits we know of don't provide bonuses to those phases. Maybe Undivided gets you a +1 to triggering the effect instead of letting you get out of sequence buffs.
None of the datasheets that have leaked say the models can take Marks, so marks are likely listed somewhere else than the datasheets. We know they all cost 15 points but nothing else.
I'm guessing that anything with CHAOS UNDIVIDED in its FACTION KEYWORDS can take a Mark. That way, you replace CHAOS UNDIVIDED with KHORNE, NURGLE, TZEENTCH, or SLAANESH. It's just a guess, though.
That's my assumption as well. I'm also assuming Marks are paid on a per-unit basis.
Looking at the top of the Chosen leak we can see the bottom of the Possessed sheet, and it looks like they don't have Chaos Undivided but curiously they don't have to buy a Mark, so I wonder if that's accounted for in unit cost already.
Ummm....ok, I'm looking at the image your referring to. Where does it say that they don't have to buy a Mark? I can't find that.
None of the datasheets that have leaked say the models can take Marks, so marks are likely listed somewhere else than the datasheets. We know they all cost 15 points but nothing else.
I'm guessing that anything with CHAOS UNDIVIDED in its FACTION KEYWORDS can take a Mark. That way, you replace CHAOS UNDIVIDED with KHORNE, NURGLE, TZEENTCH, or SLAANESH. It's just a guess, though.
That's my assumption as well. I'm also assuming Marks are paid on a per-unit basis.
Looking at the top of the Chosen leak we can see the bottom of the Possessed sheet, and it looks like they don't have Chaos Undivided but curiously they don't have to buy a Mark, so I wonder if that's accounted for in unit cost already.
Ummm....ok, I'm looking at the image your referring to. Where does it say that they don't have to buy a Mark? I can't find that.
Points costs. Only the Daemon Prince is forced to buy a Mark.
Honestly just think I'll run my iron warriors army as whatever legion I feel like running at events etc. I never normally do that but I'm not bothered anymore, if I want to play as black legion then I'll just those rules. Took me years to paint a massive iron warriors collection and I'm not repainting stuff or being locked to a certain set of rules.
I think the new marketing was collecting feedback, and saw the constant angry remarks about missing options in kits.
When Death Guard dropped, they got the first taste of negative feedback- they'd misunderstood and gone the wrong way (people wanted more in the kits, not to be restricted to the kit- they took it as a envy/barrier to entry issue, not a "ripoff" issue), but they were already committed to the new paradigm for the next two years. A lot of CSM players weighed in on that.
Horus Heresy shows them testing the opposite strategy- bolt-on kits.
I think they're trying to "hide" this release in their HH numbers rather thsn fess up they screwed the pooch for an entire faction
EDIT: On reflection, I'm going to guess that marketing wants to reverse course, but someone in the design studio knows that making units uniform- and the basic army building block, not the model- is how they get the community to accept power level.
if so then that person needs to be fired.
The granularity of points is making it the superior system compared to PL, i don't want to suffer in choice only because PL was a waste of space and time.
I think the new marketing was collecting feedback, and saw the constant angry remarks about missing options in kits.
When Death Guard dropped, they got the first taste of negative feedback- they'd misunderstood and gone the wrong way (people wanted more in the kits, not to be restricted to the kit- they took it as a envy/barrier to entry issue, not a "ripoff" issue), but they were already committed to the new paradigm for the next two years. A lot of CSM players weighed in on that.
Horus Heresy shows them testing the opposite strategy- bolt-on kits.
I think they're trying to "hide" this release in their HH numbers rather thsn fess up they screwed the pooch for an entire faction
EDIT: On reflection, I'm going to guess that marketing wants to reverse course, but someone in the design studio knows that making units uniform- and the basic army building block, not the model- is how they get the community to accept power level.
if so then that person needs to be fired.
The granularity of points is making it the superior system compared to PL, i don't want to suffer in choice only because PL was a waste of space and time.
It feels like in the Post-Kirby era GW has been throwing a lot of stuff at the wall and some sticks, some doesn't.
It feels like in the Post-Kirby era GW has been throwing a lot of stuff at the wall and some sticks, some doesn't.
Unless you are CSM, then they repeat the same thing that isn't working for the playerbase of the faction since 4th.
There is also nothing wrong with throwing things at a wall and see what sticks, problem is however, that doing so without actually communicating with your custommer base is bound to lead to some thrown in windows instead of something that sticks.
Also some of the recent stuff is just blatant nostalgia baiting, like gsc and squats, which tbh i liked the old version more then these in regards to squats, GSC they did do propperly atleast.
It feels like in the Post-Kirby era GW has been throwing a lot of stuff at the wall and some sticks, some doesn't.
Unless you are CSM, then they repeat the same thing that isn't working for the playerbase of the faction since 4th.
There is also nothing wrong with throwing things at a wall and see what sticks, problem is however, that doing so without actually communicating with your custommer base is bound to lead to some thrown in windows instead of something that sticks.
Also some of the recent stuff is just blatant nostalgia baiting, like gsc and squats, which tbh i liked the old version more then these in regards to squats, GSC they did do propperly atleast.
I agree there isn't anything wrong with experimenting with what works and what doesn't. Warhammer isn't generally a flash-in-the-pan hobby where you assemble a 2000pts army and you're done forever, most of us are in this for the long haul so waiting a few years for stuff to improve is par for the course. But GW has a problem where when the throw stuff things DO stick to the wall, then they scrape it off, put it in the bin, clean the wall and the throw more things at it.
Not Online!!! wrote: if so then that person needs to be fired.
The granularity of points is making it the superior system compared to PL, i don't want to suffer in choice only because PL was a waste of space and time.
Points is not superior to PL when GW is worse at balancing points than they are at balancing PL
Not Online!!! wrote: The granularity of points is making it the superior system compared to PL, i don't want to suffer in choice only because PL was a waste of space and time.
if we would play a different game, the points there are superior and offer balance by granularity
yet this is about 40k, were balance is off not matter if you use points or PL
fun fact, AoS use PL and is better balanced than 40k, which means GW is doing a better job with PL so those are the superior system inside the GW bubble, it does not matter that someone else is doing a better job with points than GW does with PL
Not Online!!! wrote: if so then that person needs to be fired.
The granularity of points is making it the superior system compared to PL, i don't want to suffer in choice only because PL was a waste of space and time.
Points is not superior to PL when GW is worse at balancing points than they are at balancing PL
from personal experience, no decidedly not in 40k
kodos wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote: The granularity of points is making it the superior system compared to PL, i don't want to suffer in choice only because PL was a waste of space and time.
if we would play a different game, the points there are superior and offer balance by granularity
yet this is about 40k, were balance is off not matter if you use points or PL
fun fact, AoS use PL and is better balanced than 40k, which means GW is doing a better job with PL so those are the superior system inside the GW bubble, it does not matter that someone else is doing a better job with points than GW does with PL
Meanwhile we got 30k which looks atleast on paper so far as having done a better job than both.
but yeah overall so long gw ruleswriting sucks it ultimativly doesn't matter, of course unless the cookie cutterism that gets favoured by PL will affect whole armies.
which it does so it is the inferior system.
Also Lord of the Rings is the superior system compared to 40k and AoS
just the difference if the designer play their own game or not
and PL being less balanced in 40k is not really a thing, it favors different stuff so we can start nitpicking the small little differences with the result that balance is terrible for both
just that the other is 0.5 more terrible does not make it better just terrible for different people
kodos wrote: Also Lord of the Rings is the superior system compared to 40k and AoS
just the difference if the designer play their own game or not
and PL being less balanced in 40k is not really a thing, it favors different stuff so we can start nitpicking the small little differences with the result that balance is terrible for both
just that the other is 0.5 more terrible does not make it better just terrible for different people
When one system literally leads to cookie cutter entries, out of a wargaming perspective, then you can't really argue that it is not worse than the other.
the difference between PL and Points at the moment regarding balance is if you argue that 1999 points are better balanced than 2000.
it is not better, just shifting the problems around
yes points could help, if GW would actually care to use them
and as long as they don't care we would be better of with PL (as looking to AoS were weapon upgrades are not always an auto-include just because they are free)
Ok, Auspex Tactics just released a video on the new KLOS rules. So, apparently, there's more leaks out there that we haven't seen.
Short take on the KLOS (watch the video for better information. I didn't memorize this stuff): Tougher: 30W, 2+ probably a 5++ (Daemon engine). More killy at range and melee.
Personally, I'll stick with my Fellblade. You guys do you.
kodos wrote: the difference between PL and Points at the moment regarding balance is if you argue that 1999 points are better balanced than 2000.
it is not better, just shifting the problems around
yes points could help, if GW would actually care to use them and as long as they don't care we would be better of with PL (as looking to AoS were weapon upgrades are not always an auto-include just because they are free)
Again, GW balancing makes it irrelevant, as stated, however design of unit entries is impacted by it, since it leads to a more simplified e.g. optionless entry being favoured.
And since it doesn't matter since GW can not into balance in 40k seemingly, i'd rather keep the old nonsense and have my infantry not invalidated for doubling up on specials and heavys on my legionaires and full flamer / melta chosen.
Of course points are a better system due to being much more granular and allowing for much better fine-tuning of everything, this shouldn't even be a point of discussion due to how obvious it is.
GW, however, fails to capitalise on any of the potential advantages the points system provides.
Not Online!!! wrote: And since it doesn't matter since GW can not into balance in 40k seemingly, i'd rather keep the old nonsense and have my infantry not invalidated for doubling up on specials and heavys on my legionaires and full flamer / melta chosen.
I see no point an keeping the illusion of balance just because people are used to it and pretend that any game with points must be balanced
telling that any car with 4 wheels is good racing and that 4 square wheels are better than 3 instead of recognizing that it does not matter if there are 3 or 4 wheels, as long as they are square the car won't be good
On the subject of autoincludes: has anyone noticed how many HQs now cost about 90 points?
Warpsmiths used to be the go-to for a cheap HQ. Now Fabius, Exalted Champion, Warpsmith, Cypher, Sorcerer, and Chaos Lord all come in around 90, some have additional options bringing them over 100.
If there was going to be an autoinclude, it's probably not Abaddon at 300 points.
Cypher seems like a steal. I need to see his datasheet, but he might be Abaddon-lite.
Not Online!!! wrote: if so then that person needs to be fired.
The granularity of points is making it the superior system compared to PL, i don't want to suffer in choice only because PL was a waste of space and time.
Points is not superior to PL when GW is worse at balancing points than they are at balancing PL
from personal experience, no decidedly not in 40k
It sometimes feels as though you forget that your personal experience is not the end-all, be-all of what is better. Perhaps it's better for you, but people who are much less competitive or may be newer to things probably would prefer power levels as it doesn't force them to have to justify every single option they may want to include. For instance, they don't have to agonize over whether or not equipping an Intercessor Sergeant with a thunder hammer is worth the points.
"Does he look cool? Go for it!"
Gah, sometimes I think a lot of you guys have forgotten how to have fun playing a game.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ok, Auspex Tactics just released a video on the new KLOS rules. So, apparently, there's more leaks out there that we haven't seen.
Short take on the KLOS (watch the video for better information. I didn't memorize this stuff): Tougher: 30W, 2+ probably a 5++ (Daemon engine). More killy at range and melee.
Personally, I'll stick with my Fellblade. You guys do you.
KLOS:
Spoiler:
Also CSM get improved Vindicators and !!T9!! Land Raiders
Gadzilla666 wrote: Whoa! And Dd6+2 lascannons! And Demolisher Cannons are now d3+3 shots andAP-4!
They better apply these changes to our fw stuff fast.
They've finally broken the T8 barrier!
Sorry man, not a snowball's chance in hell. FW is just legends 2.0 at this point. You'll be lucky if they properly apply the traitoris astartes keyword to all units.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Whoa! And Dd6+2 lascannons! And Demolisher Cannons are now d3+3 shots andAP-4!
They better apply these changes to our fw stuff fast.
They've finally broken the T8 barrier!
Sorry man, not a snowball's chance in hell. FW is just legends 2.0 at this point. You'll be lucky if they properly apply the traitoris astartes keyword to all units.
Don't need it. The psychic power only requires it being a <LEGION> unit, and it already is. 26 T9 2+ wounds with AoC and Smokescreen. I need to do some math.......
Edit: 54 Dark/Light Lance shots for a "confirmed kill". 45 melta shots at melta range. Tyrant Volcano cannon averages 5.556 damage.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Don't need it. The psychic power only requires it being a <LEGION> unit, and it already is. 26 T9 2+ wounds with AoC and Smokescreen. I need to do some math.......
I was referring to the stats updates. Currently GW is doing the absolute minimum necessary to keep the FW models alive, and carrying over updated profiles or new rules is absolutely not part of that.
For every single codex since DG people were hoping for updates on their corresponding FW models and every single faction has been disappointed, from DG to drukhari to orks to custodes to tau to knights.
And yet, for every new codex, you see people eagerly awaiting their FW updates just to be disappointed when GW does yet another minimum effort update. If you're lucky your fellblade gets "Let the Galaxy Burn" and remains unchanged otherwise, but it might not even get that much.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Don't need it. The psychic power only requires it being a <LEGION> unit, and it already is. 26 T9 2+ wounds with AoC and Smokescreen. I need to do some math.......
I was referring to the stats updates. Currently GW is doing the absolute minimum necessary to keep the FW models alive, and carrying over updated profiles or new rules is absolutely not part of that.
For every single codex since DG people were hoping for updates on their corresponding FW models and every single faction has been disappointed, from DG to drukhari to orks to custodes to tau to knights.
And yet, for every new codex, you see people eagerly awaiting their FW updates just to be disappointed when GW does yet another minimum effort update. If you're lucky your fellblade gets "Let the Galaxy Burn" and remains unchanged otherwise, but it might not even get that much.
Yes, I know. If you've noticed, I complain about that a lot. But right now, I've finally found something in this codex that I like. So stop harshing my buzz.
Not Online!!! wrote: if so then that person needs to be fired.
The granularity of points is making it the superior system compared to PL, i don't want to suffer in choice only because PL was a waste of space and time.
Points is not superior to PL when GW is worse at balancing points than they are at balancing PL
from personal experience, no decidedly not in 40k
It sometimes feels as though you forget that your personal experience is not the end-all, be-all of what is better. Perhaps it's better for you, but people who are much less competitive or may be newer to things probably would prefer power levels as it doesn't force them to have to justify every single option they may want to include. For instance, they don't have to agonize over whether or not equipping an Intercessor Sergeant with a thunder hammer is worth the points.
"Does he look cool? Go for it!"
Gah, sometimes I think a lot of you guys have forgotten how to have fun playing a game.
Has flamer chosen and over 60 of the normal legionaires of the new CSM variety not KT, gets called competitive?
ok then.
just because PL does allow you to slap on whats cool. it does also lower unit options to make units cool by removing a units options and standardising them due to how the design of the entries is impacted by it as a measurement.
I wish that everybody in this thread would take your advice
I absolutely love that Chaos Land Raiders finally look like they might be playable. I've been wanting this for years, they are easily my favourite Chaos vehicle.
It feels like in the Post-Kirby era GW has been throwing a lot of stuff at the wall and some sticks, some doesn't.
Unless you are CSM, then they repeat the same thing that isn't working for the playerbase of the faction since 4th.
There is also nothing wrong with throwing things at a wall and see what sticks, problem is however, that doing so without actually communicating with your custommer base is bound to lead to some thrown in windows instead of something that sticks.
Also some of the recent stuff is just blatant nostalgia baiting, like gsc and squats, which tbh i liked the old version more then these in regards to squats, GSC they did do propperly atleast.
I agree there isn't anything wrong with experimenting with what works and what doesn't. Warhammer isn't generally a flash-in-the-pan hobby where you assemble a 2000pts army and you're done forever, most of us are in this for the long haul so waiting a few years for stuff to improve is par for the course. But GW has a problem where when the throw stuff things DO stick to the wall, then they scrape it off, put it in the bin, clean the wall and the throw more things at it.
Well yeah. Although, as Karol may have hinted at once or twice; it is a little sucky if you get into Warhammer as a new player, buy a load of stuff you think looks cool, only to find it's rubbish - and then get told, yeah, but give it 3 years or so and it might get better.
I mean, I (re)started at the start of 6th edition - and my CSMs have yet to be a great option. Will see what happens with this and the World Eaters book, but I'm starting to get rather jaded now.
Chaos Landraiders are nuts, love the buff although I would have played mine anyway because I love the Model.
T9 (buffable to 10), 4 LasCannon Shots that explode Turn 1, a heavy bolter to kill some pesky Marines from an objective. All this while carrying some Legionaries or Chosen to an Objective.
Sadly, I know that the the Land Raider Achilles I bought for my Thousand Sons army probably won't see the benefits of this :( Hell, Thousand Sons (and Death Guard) land raiders probably won't be updated at all I'm guessing.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So why is the giant feth-off huge titanic Daemon Engine T8 when the Land Raider is T9?
I'm not sure T9 on a melee unit would be good for the game. Almost every army has S9+ ranged weapons that can hit at BS, in combat though some armies do not even get to S8 and it is common for those weapons to have a -1 to hit built in - fighting a LoS at T9 would be like Ork shooting but without ever being able to get the weight of numbers in.
T9 tanks with enhanced guns though I can get behind, especially when they often cost the equivalent of 2 heavy weapon infantry squads.
I look forward to Loyalist Land Raiders being T10.
Nah. They'll save that for the new "Repulsonator".
Edit: Actually, the weird thing, IMO, is that the KLOS gets the "move over infantry" rule. That makes sense for giant walkers like Knights, but the KLOS is a tracked vehicle. Shouldn't it flatten anything that it moves over?
H.B.M.C. wrote: So why is the giant feth-off huge titanic Daemon Engine T8 when the Land Raider is T9?
This is honestly easy to explain: A Knight has a huge load of weakpoints (Joints, thin legs and so on) and a thinner armour. A Land Raider is a Box of armour on Tracks. Easy to build and highly efficient. There is a reason why we see tanks in real life but no mechs.
I hope they update the Monolith to be T9. Seeing the Monolith having less toughness than a Land Raider just feels wrong, especially when it's a LoW now for some silly reason. It's like GW really hates the Monolith for some reason.
I look forward to Loyalist Land Raiders being T10.
Yeah, well. I'm taking it as soft confirmation of Loyalist 2.0 codex within ~6 months. Pad to 9 for continued disaster distribution.
With HH datasheets.
I look forward to Loyalist Land Raiders being T10.
Yeah, well. I'm taking it as soft confirmation of Loyalist 2.0 codex within ~6 months. Pad to 9 for continued disaster distribution.
With HH datasheets.
Updates for Land Raiders and any other "shared" units won't take that long. They'll errata them. They're not going to allow CSM to have anything better than loyalists for one minute.
Warp Talons not being core is making me very nervous. If the demonic units cannot be dedicated to a demonic god I'm going to be so upset. So far all core and character units (except the daemon prince) have had the <chaos undivided> keyword. According to the leaks, only core and characters could take Mark's, but it also specifically said that warp talons and possessed could take Mark's.
I'm hoping that, like the DP, daemonkin are just required to take a mark and that extra undivided keyword is not necessary.
Raulengrin wrote: Warp Talons not being core is making me very nervous. If the demonic units cannot be dedicated to a demonic god I'm going to be so upset. So far all core and character units (except the daemon prince) have had the <chaos undivided> keyword. According to the leaks, only core and characters could take Mark's, but it also specifically said that warp talons and possessed could take Mark's.
I'm hoping that, like the DP, daemonkin are just required to take a mark and that extra undivided keyword is not necessary.
How do you know that Warp Talons aren't CORE? Has the datasheet been leaked?
Raulengrin wrote: Warp Talons not being core is making me very nervous. If the demonic units cannot be dedicated to a demonic god I'm going to be so upset. So far all core and character units (except the daemon prince) have had the <chaos undivided> keyword. According to the leaks, only core and characters could take Mark's, but it also specifically said that warp talons and possessed could take Mark's.
I'm hoping that, like the DP, daemonkin are just required to take a mark and that extra undivided keyword is not necessary.
How do you know that Warp Talons aren't CORE? Has the datasheet been leaked?
Raulengrin wrote: Warp Talons not being core is making me very nervous. If the demonic units cannot be dedicated to a demonic god I'm going to be so upset. So far all core and character units (except the daemon prince) have had the <chaos undivided> keyword. According to the leaks, only core and characters could take Mark's, but it also specifically said that warp talons and possessed could take Mark's.
I'm hoping that, like the DP, daemonkin are just required to take a mark and that extra undivided keyword is not necessary.
How do you know that Warp Talons aren't CORE? Has the datasheet been leaked?
Not Online!!! wrote: What, options? instead of an upgrade to accursed weapons? that is actually still a customizable champion.
Legionnaire Squad: You can take two special weapons in a squad of 10, but you can't take two of the same weapon, because the kit only has one of each weapon.
Raptor Squad: You can take two special weapons of any type, even though the kit only has one of each type, and you can't take Lightning Claws on the Champ, even though the kit has 5 sets.
H.B.M.C. wrote: "The Raptor Champion's Astartes chainsword can be replaced with one of the following: 1 power sword, 1 powerfist."
I love how the Master of Possession can't sacrifice Cultists... that makes sense.
They've, actually removed lightning claws from everything in the codex except for Warp Talons, Terminator Lords, and Harkon, haven't they? Why? Why can't we have lightning claws?
Not Online!!! wrote: What, options? instead of an upgrade to accursed weapons? that is actually still a customizable champion.
Legionnaire Squad: You can take two special weapons in a squad of 10, but you can't take two of the same weapon, because the kit only has one of each weapon.
Raptor Squad: You can take two special weapons of any type, even though the kit only has one of each type, and you can't take Lightning Claws on the Champ, even though the kit has 5 sets.
Consistency!!!
are we taking bets that there is a new kit without the Claws for the Champ?
One of those above I made up, just to illustrate the absurdity a little further.
And there's no new Raptor kit. What you have to accept is that (now) the Raptor kit doesn't actually have any lightning claws in it, because those are 'Warp Claws'. This entirely not a new thing and it's always been that way. We've always been at war with Eastasia.
Not Online!!! wrote: What, options? instead of an upgrade to accursed weapons? that is actually still a customizable champion.
Legionnaire Squad: You can take two special weapons in a squad of 10, but you can't take two of the same weapon, because the kit only has one of each weapon.
Raptor Squad: You can take two special weapons of any type, even though the kit only has one of each type, and you can't take Lightning Claws on the Champ, even though the kit has 5 sets.
Consistency!!!
are we taking bets that there is a new kit without the Claws for the Champ?
No. Nothing can have lighting claws besides Warp Talons, Harkon, and Terminator Lords. Nothing else. They're not in any of the unit prices. Power swords, power mauls, power axes, "Tainted" chainaxes, power fists. They're all there. But nothing has a price for lighting claws. They've removed that one option, even from a unit with 10 of them in the kit. Why? Why keep all of those other weapons, whether their in the kit or not, but remove lighting claws?
Not Online!!! wrote: What, options? instead of an upgrade to accursed weapons? that is actually still a customizable champion.
Legionnaire Squad: You can take two special weapons in a squad of 10, but you can't take two of the same weapon, because the kit only has one of each weapon.
Raptor Squad: You can take two special weapons of any type, even though the kit only has one of each type, and you can't take Lightning Claws on the Champ, even though the kit has 5 sets.
Consistency!!!
requires someone that is a bit of a stickler and time, which costs money.
to me this codex screams phoned in, cut cost and time saveing to make space for the other new codices that will show up until 10th.
Legionnaire Squad: You can take two special weapons in a squad of 10, but you can't take two of the same weapon, because the kit only has one of each weapon.
Raptor Squad: You can take two special weapons of any type, even though the kit only has one of each type, and you can't take Lightning Claws on the Champ, even though the kit has 5 sets. He can take a power fist though.
Chosen Squad: You can take 2 Combi-Weapons per 5, and these can be any type. You can take power swords, axes, mauls and even lightning claws, but these aren't any of those weapons. You can't take power fists though, even though that's in the kit.
H.B.M.C. wrote: What you have to accept is that (now) the Raptor kit doesn't actually have any lightning claws in it, because those are 'Warp Claws'. This entirely not a new thing and it's always been that way. We've always been at way with Eastasia.
you know, at least know I understand why some people have a problem with the new Marauders from Mantic
as they use the same claw-weapon in the sprue for claws and talons in the rules
(better said, the unit get the option to buy standard claws or improved ones and people complained that the box only comes with one)
get it now, every option need to be its own weapon on the sprue, you cannot just use Warp Claws as Lightning Claws, that is impossible
You are of course 100% correct. It is simply impossible - impossible, I tell you - to use "Warp Claws" as "Lightning Claws".
On the other hand, you can use Lightning Claws, Power Swords, Power Axes, Chain Axes, and Power Mauls as Accursed Weapons. And also as actual Lightning Claws, actual Power Swords, actual Power Axes, actual Chain Axes, and also Chainweapons, and also Cursed Chainaxes for some reason, and actual Power Mauls. Depending on who's holding the weapon and, presumably, what phase the moon is currently in.
This is totally consistent and not at all confusing.
Legionnaire Squad: You can take two special weapons in a squad of 10, but you can't take two of the same weapon, because the kit only has one of each weapon.
Raptor Squad: You can take two special weapons of any type, even though the kit only has one of each type, and you can't take Lightning Claws on the Champ, even though the kit has 5 sets. He can take a power fist though.
Chosen Squad: You can take 2 Combi-Weapons per 5, and these can be any type. You can take power swords, axes, mauls and even lightning claws, but these aren't any of those weapons. You can't take power fists though, even though that's in the kit.
again that would require something , like , you know a certain job that was quite common in journalism aswell as in magazins.. what are they called again? Editor?
i agree it makes no sense, just as NMNR makes no sense and even less sense in regards to "not powerfist accursed weapon chosen" in regards to WYSIWYG, which is ultimativly horrendus for a wargame in which minis should kinda provide information on the state of the battle....
as it stands either this book will get a substantial day 1 FAQ or be probably the next 4th edition level csm dex disaster.
if i were a gambler i'd bet on the later, day 1 FAQ is only something loyalists get, like kratii , because picket fences are obligatory for chaos tanks and the warpsmiths didn't grow enough of them to slap on the old kratii as of yet.
Not Online!!! wrote: again that would require something , like , you know a certain job that was quite common in journalism aswell as in magazins.. what are they called again? Editor?
no chance the editor would spot that as a mistake unless he played Chaos Space Marines before, or has deep knowledge of the game in general
Editior: Champ does only get option from the box
looks up box content: no lightning claw mentioned, everything is fine
hence again the problem that those who write the stuff don't actually play the game
Not Online!!! wrote: again that would require something , like , you know a certain job that was quite common in journalism aswell as in magazins.. what are they called again? Editor?
no chance the editor would spot that as a mistake unless he played Chaos Space Marines before, or has deep knowledge of the game in general
Editior: Champ does only get option from the box
looks up box content: no lightning claw mentioned, everything is fine
hence again the problem that those who write the stuff don't actually play the game
or you know, what is more likely, he or she or whatever could also take a gander and look at the file of the 8th edition 2.0 codex to check all the sheets and data and changes, but they couldn't seemingly be bothered to do that if there even exists such a position in GW at all. no playing the army requried there for consistency.
Because if that would have been the case, the dex would've been atleast consistent, which it isn't somehow, which is were for me the whole absurdity comes from.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Chaos Landraiders are nuts, love the buff although I would have played mine anyway because I love the Model.
T9 (buffable to 10), 4 LasCannon Shots that explode Turn 1, a heavy bolter to kill some pesky Marines from an objective. All this while carrying some Legionaries or Chosen to an Objective.
T9 is absolutely nuts! Even Melta guns are going to need 5s to wound it! lol Also, it isn't just legionaires and Chosen it can carry. The Landraider can carry Abaddon into combat too! lol Turn 1, please try and kill this T9 LR because if you fail, Abby and 8 friends are going to disembark and murder you in turn 2 ! lol
Not Online!!! wrote: again that would require something , like , you know a certain job that was quite common in journalism aswell as in magazins.. what are they called again? Editor?
no chance the editor would spot that as a mistake unless he played Chaos Space Marines before, or has deep knowledge of the game in general
Editior: Champ does only get option from the box
looks up box content: no lightning claw mentioned, everything is fine
hence again the problem that those who write the stuff don't actually play the game
or you know, what is more likely, he or she or whatever could also take a gander and look at the file of the 8th edition 2.0 codex to check all the sheets and data and changes, but they couldn't seemingly be bothered to do that if there even exists such a position in GW at all. no playing the army requried there for consistency.
Because if that would have been the case, the dex would've been atleast consistent, which it isn't somehow, which is were for me the whole absurdity comes from.
this is not the job of the Editor
it is impossible for an Editor to spot if something is mistake or simply an indented rules update/change if he is not involved into the game
hence "we" can spot mistakes after 5 minutes that no one at GW got, the Designer never plays the game by the written rules (if they play at all) but how they think it would work, the Editor does not play the game and has to assume that all rules are as they should be
We had some copy&paste sentences from 3rd Edi still in the 7th Edition rule book that referred to something gone long gone, but no one ever thought of removing it because those who play don't read the actual written rules and those who read the rules (aka the Editor) never played the game
Kodos, again, if they simply had compared the two files they could've easily go and asked the rules designer, because half the missing stuff makes no sense e.g. raptor champs without lighning claws and chosen without powerfists but powerfists.
That doesn't require playtime, that requires a bit of communication and pattern recognition aswell as informing the editior about the changes that would happen.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Chaos Landraiders are nuts, love the buff although I would have played mine anyway because I love the Model.
T9 (buffable to 10), 4 LasCannon Shots that explode Turn 1, a heavy bolter to kill some pesky Marines from an objective. All this while carrying some Legionaries or Chosen to an Objective.
T9 is absolutely nuts! Even Melta guns are going to need 5s to wound it! lol Also, it isn't just legionaires and Chosen it can carry. The Landraider can carry Abaddon into combat too! lol Turn 1, please try and kill this T9 LR because if you fail, Abby and 8 friends are going to disembark and murder you in turn 2 ! lol
Another post that I can't tell if it's serious or not. Most armies can kill a Knight in one turn or get it to the last bracket. You think the Land Raider being T9 is....amazing? You're better off running Abaddon up the board.
lol, the article straight-up says Possessed can take the Icon of Khorne:
"Once again, if the unit has the ICON keyword, then any melee attack they perform is further enhanced as the bloodthirsty power of Khorne ups the Armour Penetration. All of this means that smashing apart the misguided weaklings of the Imperium is going to be more satisfying than ever for those power-hungry Chosen and rabid Possessed."
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Chaos Landraiders are nuts, love the buff although I would have played mine anyway because I love the Model.
T9 (buffable to 10), 4 LasCannon Shots that explode Turn 1, a heavy bolter to kill some pesky Marines from an objective. All this while carrying some Legionaries or Chosen to an Objective.
T9 is absolutely nuts! Even Melta guns are going to need 5s to wound it! lol Also, it isn't just legionaires and Chosen it can carry. The Landraider can carry Abaddon into combat too! lol Turn 1, please try and kill this T9 LR because if you fail, Abby and 8 friends are going to disembark and murder you in turn 2 ! lol
Another post that I can't tell if it's serious or not. Most armies can kill a Knight in one turn or get it to the last bracket. You think the Land Raider being T9 is....amazing? You're better off running Abaddon up the board.
LOL knew it. It'd be too broken for Possessed to get Marks after all.
Garbage garbage garbage
Feel free to keep on being negative. For me, I definitely think a LR has some play now and I am quite excited about that. Not all armies have Str 9 or higher anti tank. Some only have Str 8, and those are going to only wound the LR on 5s. Not to mention it can blow smoke for -1 to hit. Its guns have been improved as well now. Plus until they change armour of contempt. The Chaos LR has a 2+ save with armor of contempt, so it gets a 4+ save even against an AP 3 anti tank weapon and a 5+ save against a AP4 weapon.
Lets take a Dark lance for example. A pretty common anti tank weapon for Drukhari. Str 8, AP 4. 3+D3 weapon. So with the smoke -1 to hit. only 50% will hit. And one one third will wound. So, you need on average 6 dark lance shots to get one single wound on the LR. And then it gets a 5+ save against that. So, it will on average save one our of every three dark lance wounds that go through. This means you need 18 dark lance shots to get 2 successful wounds through the armor save. That's 6+2D3 damage. That will not even kill the LR. He fails to kill the LR on turn 1, Abby and 8 friends are going to disembark from the LR and murder his lines on turn 2.
A lot of other armies rely on str 8 weapons for their anti tank. Look at Cutodes Salvo launchers. Also Str 8, AP4.
Look at DG entropy cannons - also Str 8 AP4. Or multi melta. Same.
Now of course there are some armies that have Str 9 or higher anti tank, but there are far more armies out there without those.
DO ITTOIT wrote: lol, the article straight-up says Possessed can take the Icon of Khorne:
"Once again, if the unit has the ICON keyword, then any melee attack they perform is further enhanced as the bloodthirsty power of Khorne ups the Armour Penetration. All of this means that smashing apart the misguided weaklings of the Imperium is going to be more satisfying than ever for those power-hungry Chosen and rabid Possessed."
while we know from the datasheets that they can't
We know they can't by keyword but we don't know if GW didn't give them bespoke wargear options.
DO ITTOIT wrote: lol, the article straight-up says Possessed can take the Icon of Khorne:
"Once again, if the unit has the ICON keyword, then any melee attack they perform is further enhanced as the bloodthirsty power of Khorne ups the Armour Penetration. All of this means that smashing apart the misguided weaklings of the Imperium is going to be more satisfying than ever for those power-hungry Chosen and rabid Possessed."
while we know from the datasheets that they can't
It is also possible that GW put on another page inside the Codex (for example, the page which describes the effects of the Marks and Icons) that <DAEMONKIN> have to take a Mark. Would it be an incredibly bad place to put it ? Yes. Would GW be capable of doing that ? Also yes.
But as you said, it can also be Warhammer Community fething up its communication. It already happened.
They literally say the Daemon Prince MUST (!!) take a mark, and he certainly doesn't have Chaos Undivided on his datasheet
Right, because he must (and that's actually a big chunk of his datasheet, that he has to choose, what he can choose from and etc).
Datasheets providing an exception via special rules is what datasheets do. That they mention the exception elsewhere is actually fairly progressive for this rules team.
Why would those possessed by the Daemons of Chaos ever have Marks of Chaos? That's crazy talk.
Consistency!
I propose next to Jervisification and Cruddaced we use the term Chaosistency, but in order to do the principle of Chaosistency justice we should refuse to provide a definition of its meaning.
I can’t wait to see what the upcoming Codex: Chaos Space Marines will have in store. I’m already eyeing all the Cultists, mutants, and Traitor Guardsmen to expand the Tyrant’s Legion as Huron’s human militia is known.
Now this for Kill Team but you'd have to be immensely obtuse to act like it's weird GW pushes Traitor Guard figures like this then decides they don't have rules in 40k.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Chaos Landraiders are nuts, love the buff although I would have played mine anyway because I love the Model.
T9 (buffable to 10), 4 LasCannon Shots that explode Turn 1, a heavy bolter to kill some pesky Marines from an objective. All this while carrying some Legionaries or Chosen to an Objective.
T9 is absolutely nuts! Even Melta guns are going to need 5s to wound it! lol Also, it isn't just legionaires and Chosen it can carry. The Landraider can carry Abaddon into combat too! lol Turn 1, please try and kill this T9 LR because if you fail, Abby and 8 friends are going to disembark and murder you in turn 2 ! lol
Another post that I can't tell if it's serious or not. Most armies can kill a Knight in one turn or get it to the last bracket. You think the Land Raider being T9 is....amazing? You're better off running Abaddon up the board.
LOL knew it. It'd be too broken for Possessed to get Marks after all.
Garbage garbage garbage
Feel free to keep on being negative. For me, I definitely think a LR has some play now and I am quite excited about that. Not all armies have Str 9 or higher anti tank. Some only have Str 8, and those are going to only wound the LR on 5s. Not to mention it can blow smoke for -1 to hit. Its guns have been improved as well now. Plus until they change armour of contempt. The Chaos LR has a 2+ save with armor of contempt, so it gets a 4+ save even against an AP 3 anti tank weapon and a 5+ save against a AP4 weapon.
Lets take a Dark lance for example. A pretty common anti tank weapon for Drukhari. Str 8, AP 4. 3+D3 weapon. So with the smoke -1 to hit. only 50% will hit. And one one third will wound. So, you need on average 6 dark lance shots to get one single wound on the LR. And then it gets a 5+ save against that. So, it will on average save one our of every three dark lance wounds that go through. This means you need 18 dark lance shots to get 2 successful wounds through the armor save. That's 6+2D3 damage. That will not even kill the LR. He fails to kill the LR on turn 1, Abby and 8 friends are going to disembark from the LR and murder his lines on turn 2.
A lot of other armies rely on str 8 weapons for their anti tank. Look at Cutodes Salvo launchers. Also Str 8, AP4.
Look at DG entropy cannons - also Str 8 AP4. Or multi melta. Same.
Now of course there are some armies that have Str 9 or higher anti tank, but there are far more armies out there without those.
If you want relentless positivity and "GW good" go to the hive mind of Reddit or the Facebook page.
I sure do hope it's a new communication booboo from Warcom. Because RaW:
Warcom wrote:When you add an Emperor's Children Character or Emperor's Children CORE unit (Excluding Cultists unit) to your army or crusade force, you must upgrade that unit to have the mark of Slaanesh
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: I sure do hope it's a new communication booboo from Warcom. Because RaW:
Warcom wrote:When you add an Emperor's Children Character or Emperor's Children CORE unit (Excluding Cultists unit) to your army or crusade force, you must upgrade that unit to have the mark of Slaanesh
We have to pay for the mark.
Yep. For any EC unit that is Core/Character and Undivided..
EC =/= Noise Marine.
DO ITTOIT wrote:GW has stealth edited the article and removed the mention of Possessed from that paragraph I pasted above.
Cool. TImmy the over-exuberant intern, then. Or WarCom got the draft rules.
So... unfluffy godless possessed for everyone, then.
Wouldn't be the first time Warcom lied about something. Remember the Autarch kerfuffle? Or, more recently, when talking about how we could use Traitor Guard as CSM.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Wouldn't be the first time Warcom lied about something. Remember the Autarch kerfuffle?
I don't think it's necessary a lie - I think it's a case of "the copywriter gets passed basic information about what the company wants" and then it's posted up and they only learn it's an error later on.
@Voss- Noise Marines are Core units in any army. RAW Noise Marines in EC would need to buy a mark even though they already have it according to their data sheet.
DO ITTOIT wrote: GW has stealth edited the article and removed the mention of Possessed from that paragraph I pasted above.
Hyuuuup.......they sure did. Well, I guess we don't have to waste any of our time looking for "bespoke wargear options", or extra pages explaining how <DAEMONKIN> just have to take Marks.
Wowzers. Yup. The buzz has definitely been harshed. No wonder it took so long to get any solid leaks for this book. No waygw were the ones doing the leaking this time.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: @Voss- Noise Marines are Core units in any army. RAW Noise Marines in EC would need to buy a mark even though they already have it according to their data sheet.
No, they don't. They aren't UNDIVIDED units. You're trying to apply 'a must' to a condition that doesn't even exist.
When fielding a Battle-forged army composed of any Chaos Space Marines Detachments, you can upgrade any CHAOS UNDIVIDED CORE or CHARACTER choice with a malefic Mark of Chaos for the appropriate points or Power Rating cost.
If you could (or must) upgrade upgrades that you can't upgrade, a lot of books suddenly have all sorts of issues.
Dakkanauts, I put it to you in my most scientific study since I described how to ascertain whether or not the foe Like’s It Up ‘Em off bayonets, that Chaos can either have a Good Codex and Crap Possessed Models. Or Good Possessed Models and a Crap Codex.
This ends my TedTalk.
By Mad Doc Grotsnik, aged 42, IQ roughly 3 at this point.
Dakkanauts, I put it to you in my most scientific study since I described how to ascertain whether or not the foe Like’s It Up ‘Em off bayonets, that Chaos can either have a Good Codex and Crap Possessed Models. Or Good Possessed Models and a Crap Codex.
This ends my TedTalk.
By Mad Doc Grotsnik, aged 42, IQ roughly 3 at this point.
I think whether or not these Possessed are good models will depend entirely on whether they always look exactly like those 5 in the picture, or if there's some level of variation in their various apendages.
I think whether or not these Possessed are good models will depend entirely on whether they always look exactly like those 5 in the picture, or if there's some level of variation in their various apendages.
Still better than the old old metal ones. Look at the Champion. His face and posture is that of an elderly person waving at the bus, carrying heavy shopping, only to see the callous driver ignore them and not stop.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One on the right looks like a kid’s drawing of Kiss.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Still better than the old old metal ones. Look at the Champion. His face and posture is that of an elderly person waving at the bus, carrying heavy shopping, only to see the callous driver ignore them and not stop.
I always wanted the Champion. He was actually a WYSIWYG Possessed Champ for back in those days. Sadly to get him you had to buy the rest and, well... no! Obviously no!
I am unable to find it, but the one that looks like he's dancing (second from the left in your picture) was photoshopped alongside a woman fancing, making them look like they were doing the tango or something. It was amusing.
blood reaper wrote: Bro it's called Chaos it's the literal definition of the word just look in the dictionary bro.
Bro, like, bro, how can we not, bro? It's, like, bro, totally random, bro. Chaos = Random, afterall, bro.
I am unable to find it, but the one that looks like he's dancing (second from the left in your picture) was photoshopped alongside a woman fancing, making them look like they were doing the tango or something. It was amusing.
It’s as if they went for one of Slaine’s warp spasms.
But forgot the warp. And the m. Yes that does now sound like a term we probably shouldn’t use on Dakka.
The Eye of Terror campaign sure was a wild time. Ugly Possessed. New Cadians. Mix'n'match Chaos Space Wolf kits to make 13th Company. I bought so many of those Lost & The Damned Mutant kitbash kits.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Still better than the old old metal ones. Look at the Champion. His face and posture is that of an elderly person waving at the bus, carrying heavy shopping, only to see the callous driver ignore them and not stop.
I always wanted the Champion. He was actually a WYSIWYG Possessed Champ for back in those days. Sadly to get him you had to buy the rest and, well... no! Obviously no!
I am unable to find it, but the one that looks like he's dancing (second from the left in your picture) was photoshopped alongside a woman fancing, making them look like they were doing the tango or something. It was amusing.
blood reaper wrote: Bro it's called Chaos it's the literal definition of the word just look in the dictionary bro.
Bro, like, bro, how can we not, bro? It's, like, bro, totally random, bro. Chaos = Random, afterall, bro.
Bro.
I was of course being a bit facetious but it rocks there's people who are legitimately like this "Chaos is called Chaos so it's literally random - it makes sense the army has no consistency and has awkward, janky rules, because that's random?"
Dakkanauts, I put it to you in my most scientific study since I described how to ascertain whether or not the foe Like’s It Up ‘Em off bayonets, that Chaos can either have a Good Codex and Crap Possessed Models. Or Good Possessed Models and a Crap Codex.
This ends my TedTalk.
By Mad Doc Grotsnik, aged 42, IQ roughly 3 at this point.
Hey, I would posit that the terrible metal dudes at least have character. I look at the 5 of them and I get an entire story.
They are a group of problematic bachelors who call themselves "The Squad". The photo which served as the basis for those models was taken on a particularly wild night out at the club in which their choreographed dance routine which sought to combine the eclectic styles of the heights of disco, dirty ballroom dancing, the haka, MJ's Thriller, and pub hooligan was a particular highlight. It is believed that a cocktail of drugs including, but not limited to, MDMA, cocaine, meth, ketamine, DMT and household solvents was involved.
1. I had an actually fully painted, not kidding, and pretty massive Iron Warriors army
2. Said army not at all honest Guv funded by being a part-time GW till monkey (for the discount) whilst having a full time and reasonably playing job and living at home
3. A pretty decent gaming circle from running Veterans Nights (Tues and Thurs, cash-up at 8pm, but everyone sod off only when I can’t be arsed anymore and want me bed)
4. The blossom of yoof (not like that, dirty boy) which meant the perks of 3. were doable
Bitter
1. I planned a pretty intricate and groovy narrative campaign for Eye of Terror. Even managed to shoe-horn in reasons for other armies to take part
3. St Josman’s Hope was all blown to destruction and deth in the first week. Possibly even the first day (look I’m knocking on a bit and that occurred so long ago some Dakkanauts weren’t even alive)
Yes. I Charlton Heston’d.
Actual archive footage of me reading the internet that one time.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: @Voss- Noise Marines are Core units in any army. RAW Noise Marines in EC would need to buy a mark even though they already have it according to their data sheet.
No, they don't. They aren't UNDIVIDED units. You're trying to apply 'a must' to a condition that doesn't even exist.
When fielding a Battle-forged army composed of any Chaos Space Marines Detachments, you can upgrade any CHAOS UNDIVIDED CORE or CHARACTER choice with a malefic Mark of Chaos for the appropriate points or Power Rating cost.
If you could (or must) upgrade upgrades that you can't upgrade, a lot of books suddenly have all sorts of issues.
We, Dreadfully Hopeful and I, are talking about an EC army. RAW all core units must pay for a mark of slaanesh. Noise Marines are core units therefore they must buy a mark of slaanesh. This has to happen even though they already have a mark of slaanesh on their data sheet. So it's the exact opposite of a BOGO in that this is buy 2 marks get 1 benefit.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Still better than the old old metal ones. Look at the Champion. His face and posture is that of an elderly person waving at the bus, carrying heavy shopping, only to see the callous driver ignore them and not stop.
I always wanted the Champion. He was actually a WYSIWYG Possessed Champ for back in those days. Sadly to get him you had to buy the rest and, well... no! Obviously no!
I am unable to find it, but the one that looks like he's dancing (second from the left in your picture) was photoshopped alongside a woman fancing, making them look like they were doing the tango or something. It was amusing.
blood reaper wrote: Bro it's called Chaos it's the literal definition of the word just look in the dictionary bro.
Bro, like, bro, how can we not, bro? It's, like, bro, totally random, bro. Chaos = Random, afterall, bro.
Bro.
I was of course being a bit facetious but it rocks there's people who are legitimately like this "Chaos is called Chaos so it's literally random - it makes sense the army has no consistency and has awkward, janky rules, because that's random?"
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Still better than the old old metal ones. Look at the Champion. His face and posture is that of an elderly person waving at the bus, carrying heavy shopping, only to see the callous driver ignore them and not stop.
I always wanted the Champion. He was actually a WYSIWYG Possessed Champ for back in those days. Sadly to get him you had to buy the rest and, well... no! Obviously no!
I am unable to find it, but the one that looks like he's dancing (second from the left in your picture) was photoshopped alongside a woman fancing, making them look like they were doing the tango or something. It was amusing.
blood reaper wrote: Bro it's called Chaos it's the literal definition of the word just look in the dictionary bro.
Bro, like, bro, how can we not, bro? It's, like, bro, totally random, bro. Chaos = Random, afterall, bro.
Bro.
I was of course being a bit facetious but it rocks there's people who are legitimately like this "Chaos is called Chaos so it's literally random - it makes sense the army has no consistency and has awkward, janky rules, because that's random?"
And those people....wrote this codex.
Possibly being that guy? But not really. But it’s in the Eye of the Beholder (not that one. That’s Bob. I mean Dave)…
I like Proper Random Chaos. Old style. All or nothing style. Realms of Chaos style. Where you could end up as a Daemon Prince with a Silly Voice, Silly Walk, a Pinhead (not the cool one) and Multi-Colour Skin.
I appreciate times have moved on where I have not. I still love those mental rules though.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Still better than the old old metal ones. Look at the Champion. His face and posture is that of an elderly person waving at the bus, carrying heavy shopping, only to see the callous driver ignore them and not stop.
I always wanted the Champion. He was actually a WYSIWYG Possessed Champ for back in those days. Sadly to get him you had to buy the rest and, well... no! Obviously no!
I am unable to find it, but the one that looks like he's dancing (second from the left in your picture) was photoshopped alongside a woman fancing, making them look like they were doing the tango or something. It was amusing.
blood reaper wrote: Bro it's called Chaos it's the literal definition of the word just look in the dictionary bro.
Bro, like, bro, how can we not, bro? It's, like, bro, totally random, bro. Chaos = Random, afterall, bro.
Bro.
I was of course being a bit facetious but it rocks there's people who are legitimately like this "Chaos is called Chaos so it's literally random - it makes sense the army has no consistency and has awkward, janky rules, because that's random?"
And those people....wrote this codex.
That is being much too generous. Nobody wrote this codex. The paper that would become the master copy of the rules was stuffed in a drawer with a load of old lead type with some ink left on them. The table in question was then transported, unsecured, in the back of a van taking part in an extreme off-road racing competition. The resultant mess of random printings on the paper which resulted would go on to become the Chaos Space Marines codex for 9th edition.
I like Proper Random Chaos. Old style. All or nothing style. Realms of Chaos style. Where you could end up as a Daemon Prince with a Silly Voice, Silly Walk, a Pinhead (not the cool one) and Multi-Colour Skin.
Or with alcoholism, a rabbit head and uncontrollable flatulence...
I like Proper Random Chaos. Old style. All or nothing style. Realms of Chaos style. Where you could end up as a Daemon Prince with a Silly Voice, Silly Walk, a Pinhead (not the cool one) and Multi-Colour Skin.
Or with alcoholism, a rabbit head and uncontrollable flatulence...
Possibly being that guy? But not really. But it’s in the Eye of the Beholder (not that one. That’s Bob. I mean Dave)…
I like Proper Random Chaos. Old style. All or nothing style. Realms of Chaos style. Where you could end up as a Daemon Prince with a Silly Voice, Silly Walk, a Pinhead (not the cool one) and Multi-Colour Skin.
I appreciate times have moved on where I have not. I still love those mental rules though.
Sure, but these rules don't do that either. This isn't a funny tables with silly results codex. Its a loyalist emulator with more restrictions but less consistency. And better tanks.
I know I said before this makes me think of a loyalist 2.0 codex, but I'd like to revise that statement: August loyalist PDF update. Chaos will get ~6 weeks of better stuff.
Leo-the_Rat wrote:We, Dreadfully Hopeful and I, are talking about an EC army
Yes, obviously.
But you're using a WarCom article that originally said that possessed can take icons to make a RAW argument that Noise Marines must pay to upgrade their Mark of Slaanesh to a Mark of Slaanesh. While refusing to acknowledge that Chaos Undivided Core is required to do an upgrade at all. By that same 'logic,' you can make the case that after they get their Mark of Slaanesh, you can also give them a Mark of Khorne.
While I'm one of the last people to make a 'wait and see' argument, you're very obviously arguing nonsense based on incomplete information (with a dash of unforced errors by the article writer). Maybe save the 'But, RAW...' arguments for after release (and the YMDC forum)
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences
Hence why someone theorized it's being released next to HH on purpose.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences
Sure. But there isn't any reason it would. There are reasons GW (and lots of other companies) don't have their own forums, and one of those is not having an officially sanctioned home for criticism.
Customer-on-the-street won't know much beyond '9th edition codex'
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Hence why someone theorized it's being released next to HH on purpose.
It does feel very buried. Without models is still very strange, though.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences
Possibly, possibly not. I was going to preorder a number of the new units whether or not I was going to buy the codex, but now it looks like I might save my money beyond buying a single box of Possessed for Gal Vorbak. I'm sure there are at least a few other people who feel the same way, and given how niche this hobby is, it might not take all that buying people not buying the codex to cause GW to take note.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences
Some of this criticism is based on incomplete information, but okay.
Saturday can't come soon enough if only for us be able to see the full mess.
Speaking of stuff we do know: Raptor Aspiring Champions not having access to the melee weapons list (whatever is on it) is rather pants. Not particularly excited by that one.
I like Proper Random Chaos. Old style. All or nothing style. Realms of Chaos style. Where you could end up as a Daemon Prince with a Silly Voice, Silly Walk, a Pinhead (not the cool one) and Multi-Colour Skin.
Or with alcoholism, a rabbit head and uncontrollable flatulence...
Am….am I a Daemon Prince?
You... drink alcohol?
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences
Most people buy models not rules, so with sales numbers alone they usually only see how (un)popular models are (either in design or price).
) should we still max them out at ten or go 
so now I have to use it in conversation.
Would you stop with this "I expect bad rules because I'm starting a Night Lords army" stuff? Night Lords don't have to have, or expect, bad rules. We had good rules in 3.5, Traitor Legions, and Faith and Fury. And I really can't understand how you can think that after seeing our 
.)
