From the sounds of it, mantic arent even able to manufacture enough KoW minis to sell in a store now anyway.

That's why they're not doing a fantasy crazy box.

 infinite_array wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
^ That's the point. That *is* the official concept art for that model, the one in the photo.

Isn't the official concept art this:



Found it on the Mantic blog back in July.

Why does God need a starship?

Why does a rock golem need a helmet and shoulder pads?

 kronk wrote:
Why does a rock golem need a helmet and shoulder pads?

To look awesome, duh!

 kronk wrote:

Why does a rock golem need a helmet and shoulder pads?

Maybe like Ballchinians in MIB and Newcomers in Alien Nation, the "sensitive" areas are located elsewhere?

Dino-riders style brain box.

The elemental needs the armored shoulders and helmet to make it into an obsidian golem

 GrimDork wrote:
The elemental needs the armored shoulders and helmet to make it into an obsidian golem

That's what I said, brain box. Abyssal Dwarfs are actually Rulons.

 Alex C wrote:
I've found it difficult to squeeze as many models as Mantic suggests onto multibases regardless of the troop type, so I've only been filling to about 75% or so on Regiments and Hordes. Means the models stretch further too so I can get an extra unit out of my collection.

I have a similar practice. I still individually base each mini, but for my KoM army, much of my infantry are Battlemasters and early GW Chaos warriors. KoW uses 20mm for human infantry, but these beyond-heroic-proportioned guys barely fit on 25mm squares. 20mm is a non-starter and to make 25mm work I have to base half towards the front and half towards the back of their bases and alternate them.

In most cases as long as they're on the right size tray no one cares. Even though this results in 12 figures instead of 20 on a 100x80mm tray, I've found that when figs are painted and nicely based, folks are unlikely to quibble over such things. Like this where I've got the wrong size bases on the right sized tray and my buddy (using vintage Ral Partha dwarves) has the right diameter of bases on a slightly oversized tray.

Of course the staggered basing on the chaos helps to confuse the eye also.

 Polonius wrote:

 mugginns wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
My FLGS won't carry the models, which I can't blame them for,

Why?

Many of the models are weak, they've been slow sellers for other game stores in the area, many of the people buying rule books are converting GW armies, and the Kickstarters really devalued the retail product.

I've seen Mantic models pop up in a few stores, so clearly not everybody is on board, but KOW isn't a range I would buy into as an FLGS right now. Maybe some day, but I'd also want to see if KOW can keep up its momentum with no rules releases between editions.

Ah, those are definitely some valid reasons. I tried to get my store to stock them years ago and they didn't.

I like the look of the dwarfs, the way they're based. I have plans to do something similar but with several of the models permanently glued to the base, just a few able to socket out for use in other systems.

Chaos warriors are filling out their movement tray, I don't see much room to complain tbh.

 mugginns wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 mugginns wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
My FLGS won't carry the models, which I can't blame them for,

Why?

Many of the models are weak, they've been slow sellers for other game stores in the area, many of the people buying rule books are converting GW armies, and the Kickstarters really devalued the retail product.

I've seen Mantic models pop up in a few stores, so clearly not everybody is on board, but KOW isn't a range I would buy into as an FLGS right now. Maybe some day, but I'd also want to see if KOW can keep up its momentum with no rules releases between editions.

Ah, those are definitely some valid reasons. I tried to get my store to stock them years ago and they didn't.

Why?










Did any of their reasons match Polonius'?

 Alpharius wrote:
Did any of their reasons match Polonius'?

I've seen a lot of stores with a lot of dead mantic stock on their shelves. The fact that even beyond kickstarters, there's a lot of heavy discounts to mantic products even from Mantic themselves makes it tough to move the product at or near MSRP. A lot of their games (like Dreadball) had some support, then just died out.

I think that KOW2 might be a turning point with some products starting to gain traction. It's both a game I anticipate being supported by the gaming community over time, and Mantic showing improved quality in their miniatures.

Also now that Mantic will suppossedly be store/distribution friendly, maybe stores will be inclined to order things. Previously they were playing second fiddle to the kickstarters and with pledgemanagers reopening over and over again people could keep adding funds to the totals and it drew attention and $$$$ from the stores. Also the hit and miss concept to reality of sculpting meant that if stores (like one near me) ordered a bunch on a kickstarter for future stock, they got stuck with a lot of slow moving items. The deadzone section at another store near me is sad to say the least. The box art also does no good for sales support and baggie style sales wrapping for some items that are hung by little cardboard tags really looks amateur hour.

Didn't they reopen the Dungeon Saga PM like yesterday?

 Mymearan wrote:
Didn't they reopen the Dungeon Saga PM like yesterday?

Fairly recently, so we could have the privelege of giving them more money for a book they should have corrected in the first place, and the oppertunity to spend $20 on a book box that takes KS expansion costs over MSRP.

Got my abyssal mega army yesterday and spent some time assembling about half of it. The models are pretty good for the most part; a couple of the succubi parts are a little over inflated with poor detail (a couple of the leg pieces) but overall everything looks pretty good.

The lower abyssals also match up with arms and weapons I have from my WoC and Lizardmen, and I think that GW ghoul heads would be able to fit in the neck socket with interesting results.

Just wish the tails were not all straight out to the side on these models as it gets in the way of the shields and is not very dynamic...

Also, does anyone have a link to any concept art or fluff for any of the other abyssal units currently without models? Before I got the rulebook, I thought the abyssal cavalry were supposed to be several lower demons fused together but that seems to have changed...

 Alpharius wrote:

 mugginns wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 mugginns wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
My FLGS won't carry the models, which I can't blame them for,

Why?

Many of the models are weak, they've been slow sellers for other game stores in the area, many of the people buying rule books are converting GW armies, and the Kickstarters really devalued the retail product.

I've seen Mantic models pop up in a few stores, so clearly not everybody is on board, but KOW isn't a range I would buy into as an FLGS right now. Maybe some day, but I'd also want to see if KOW can keep up its momentum with no rules releases between editions.

Ah, those are definitely some valid reasons. I tried to get my store to stock them years ago and they didn't.

Why?

Did any of their reasons match Polonius'?

At that time, I want to say all they had out was undead and elves, and they didn't like the look of the models. I think they also imagined people buying the cheaper Mantic stuff and not the expensive GW stuff, so they would lose some $$$.

 Theophony wrote:
Also now that Mantic will suppossedly be store/distribution friendly, maybe stores will be inclined to order things. Previously they were playing second fiddle to the kickstarters and with pledgemanagers reopening over and over again people could keep adding funds to the totals and it drew attention and $$$$ from the stores. Also the hit and miss concept to reality of sculpting meant that if stores (like one near me) ordered a bunch on a kickstarter for future stock, they got stuck with a lot of slow moving items. The deadzone section at another store near me is sad to say the least. The box art also does no good for sales support and baggie style sales wrapping for some items that are hung by little cardboard tags really looks amateur hour.

Mantic just started an updated sale that looks like it ends on Jan 31st.
It's limited but they're clearing out stuff like Mars Attacks.
The base set is selling for 37% off what my FLGS is selling it for at MSRP of $80.

Make mine Mantic!
Or was that Marvel?

from facebook

Mantic Games


4 hrs ·
.

Important announcement

Over the next week the warehouse will be close as they perform a complete stock take. During this time, we will not be dispatching any items. Normal dispatch operations will resume on Monday 11th January.

For those of you who are waiting on missing items or pledges, the Customer Service team are working through these as quickly as they can.

If you have a webstore order placed earlier than the 26th December that is still awaiting dispatch, then please contact us through the contact form on our site.

Thank you for your patience

Huh. That's weird. Does anyone know if that's normal?

 Da Boss wrote:
Huh. That's weird. Does anyone know if that's normal?

It's the first time I can recall that they completely shut down for a week.

Doing a hard count inventory on a regular basis is pretty common, but spending a whole week seems a bit much. It could be a good sign that the new managers seem to realize that they need to reboot the whole operation.

That's what I'm hoping

I'm still waiting on the MDF trays I ordered with my KOW pledge, but weren't included in my Wave1 box. I was assured a month ago that they were shipped out, but even at Christmas time a month is a pretty health time to cross the pond.

I think that Mantic realize they need to fix what's going on. let's hope they get it right!

Soon they will find out one of their packers has a house made of battlezones and 100,000 points of each army, then it might click that they have an inventory issue .

having to clean 100,000 points of Mantic restic is enough punishment, I would think...

A week seems excessive for a inventory of product....But then again I used to work at Best Buy and we inventoried an entire store with 10 people in a single evening so what do I know.

A week is a long time for a stocktake and usually you can do cycle counts these days with no stoppage of output.

Maybe though they are going to do a full stocktake and then do a rearrangement of stock to make the warehouse more efficient.

Its easy for a warehouse that adds many new lines to become inefficient unless the manager is on top of his game and is managing the stock and sales volumes closely.

Jan/Feb is usually the best time of year for this sort of thing as stores are usually still stocked from xmas and orders diminish as people get their credit card bills

Is anyone else still unable to access the Mantic forum?

 MangoMadness wrote:
A week is a long time for a stocktake and usually you can do cycle counts these days with no stoppage of output.

Maybe though they are going to do a full stocktake and then do a rearrangement of stock to make the warehouse more efficient.

Its easy for a warehouse that adds many new lines to become inefficient unless the manager is on top of his game and is managing the stock and sales volumes closely.

Jan/Feb is usually the best time of year for this sort of thing as stores are usually still stocked from xmas and orders diminish as people get their credit card bills

The old warehouse manager left a few months back, I'm assuming they'll have hired a new one by now who wants to get the place resorted to their scheme. As you say, Jan is the best time to upend everything and put it back together.

They are also going to be sending out the "Crazy Boxes" next week, which I imagine would be a good opportunity to clear out excess stock. Everyone gets Deadzone v1.0 rulebooks!

Postman just dropped off my KoW wave 2!

My order was super simple this time (2x Abyssal starter) and it paid off, for once everything is there as it should be.

Sprues are sharp and even the restic gargoyles look excellent, they seem to have been updated to DBX era restic and are as sharp as the HIPS. Really happy with everything.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Really happy with everything.

Who are you and what did you do to Lord Blackfang.......Removes mask and finds Ronnie Renton

Would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for us meddlin kids

You only have to be worried when AlexHolker says the same...at which point you should phone the authorities as clearly Ronnie is holding a gun to his head.

The Abyssals were another army I was actually pondering, mainly because I can envision a paint scheme for the succubi, so it's good to hear that they turned out well enough to please someone who's not hesitant to be critical. Might actually grab a box to futz about with when they're released to retail. Now, it's doubtful I could *execute* my envisioned scheme of course, but that's a separate problem; my painting skills are very much almost.

I really like my Abyssals. Many don't find the aesthetic appealing but the quality of the minis themselves is very nice, especially the plastics.

The Imps are a nice touch too, in the same vein as the Orclings on the Orc sprues. The Naiad sprues have little animals too. Great that they add these little touches for adding to bases or making units out of them.

My nature and abyssal armies arrived yesterday. A bit overwhelming the sheer pile of stuff in that box.

Honestly? That rock elemental isn't all that bad, especially when you give it a more gorilla- like pose with its knuckles on the ground.

Odd that the abyssal sprue is significantly larger than in size than both the Naiad and Salamander one, yet the latter two both have pieces clipped off.

I was worried the clipped stuff would be restic, or yanked off the sprues, but it all seems pretty decent. Would still rather have clipped it myself, but that's a small complaint.

Also, that druid is one of the most spindly figures I've seen in a while. Both staves were already broken!

I also have no idea where some of those shambler pieces are supposed to go.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Honestly? That rock elemental isn't all that bad, especially when you give it a more gorilla- like pose with its knuckles on the ground.

Agreed. The (in)famous "hands in the air like it just don't care" pose makes it look far sillier than it looks in Gorilla-mode.

The issue is that the fluff for rock elementals is that they're the party animals of Mantica, and that they're constantly in a state of partying like they just don't care.

 Polonius wrote:
They're a business, not a schoolboy. I don't care about third party vendors, or Chinese manufacturers, or delays at customs. I want professional customer service, and until we start seeing that, I am going to continue to view Mantic as a glorified garage shop.

Oh no doubt, their cust svc is pretty ass. Here's hoping the new hires and expanding company make things run smoothly in 2016. Seems like Mantic is at least gaining more customers than it sheds, but it would be nice to see them turn into a big boy company.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
They're a business, not a schoolboy. I don't care about third party vendors, or Chinese manufacturers, or delays at customs. I want professional customer service, and until we start seeing that, I am going to continue to view Mantic as a glorified garage shop.

Oh no doubt, their cust svc is pretty ass. Here's hoping the new hires and expanding company make things run smoothly in 2016. Seems like Mantic is at least gaining more customers than it sheds, but it would be nice to see them turn into a big boy company.

Zak was my manager for a bit when I red-shirted at GW just over 10 years ago, I have no doubt he will whip them into shape. GW had a history of sending him into key stores they felt were under-performing.

Well all 5 of their customer service bods are locked away from the upcoming KS working to fix all the issues from the past according to all the new KS updates

Got my KoW wave 2 box and went through it today. Nothing missing, which is pretty good. The Naiads and Salamanders being clipped seemed odd, but everything was there, and I have got to say that these new plastics are very good. They're not at the GW level yet, but these are by far the best plastics I've seen from Mantic. In a bit of hilarious irony, it turned out that I did in fact order a nature starter army, so I now have that bloody golem! Dunno what to do with him. Perhaps I'll sculpt him some new legs over the top of the existing ones. I do very much like his 75x75mm base, though. I'd buy some more of those if they put them in the store.

One messed up thing was that my campaign book had a whole bunch of nasty gouges in the front cover. Who'da thunk that if you place a softcover book on the bottom of a box, then chuck a large pile of pointy plastic sprues and a bunch of metal models on top (not all of which were in bubblewrap pouches) that something bad could happen to the book? For the cost of a folded-over bit of cardboard, less than 1p worth of tape and maybe a minute of a packer's time they could have saved the cost of a damaged rulebook.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Polonius wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Well, we're getting shortchanged on the Forge Fathers sprues too, aren't we? It's just one of those things Mantic does.

Honestly, I think GW is one of the only manufacturer's to build truly dual purpose sprues. The convention pretty much anywhere else is to have some overlap. Look at Perry Historicals, or Warlord's WW2 range, or any other third party manufacturer: most kits produce one thing, and if they produce two, you usually have to split the box.

To a degree. Weapon Options are pretty common in historical boxed sets. Whether it's dual-purpose Crossbows or Pikes. Spears or Swords or Polearms. It's cheaper to tool a dual-purpose kit than to tool two kits, after all - even if only half of the models in the kit can be built as crossbowmen or bows/bills/etc. This is usually in kits with about 40 models in them, so that's quite a lot squeezed onto the sprues. That's aside from extra Machineguns, SMGs or Rifles in WW2, etc kits. So you're right that you often have to "split the box", but these boxes are usually producing either a unit that's supposed to be split (bows and bills) or multiple units with their 40 figures.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Thanks for that.

Hmph. Looks like the campaign book only went out to folks who pledged LL through the KS, not the PM.

And can anyone point me to a shop that carries Uncharted Empires and won't fleece me on EU shipping? I've been pestering Mantic to add my country to their online store but it's exactly the sort of thing they suck at.
(I want the physical version)

I'd recommend Firestorm Games. I'm still waiting for my copy, but then I ordered it with some other OOS items (it was OOS when I ordered it, too).

Were we supposed to get printed campaign books with the God of War pledges, or just the pdf?

Gotta go get me some plastic cement today so I can start building stuff.

I've got 100s of Mantic plastics that need to get built this year. I smell a new project coming on... ah, Testers plastic cement smell. Nostalgia!

I thought it was just the PDF, certainly that was all I was expecting!

But I got one in my box anyway. And the starter Nature army I'd ordered suddenly became a mega Nature army (which was literally x2 of everything).

Still never got my hardback rulebook or counters though.

In unrelated news, Mantic is undertaking a inventory of its warehouse this week....

I didn't get a either a campaign book or a PDF (though I was a $1 pledge and upped to God of war in the pledge manager). but my Forces of Nature mega army was exactly right. Same as Wave 1, and Dungeon Saga, DBX before that, etc etc. I never seem to be missing anything, but on the other hand I never seem to get the benefit of one of these awesome 'loads of unexpected extras' mispacks either.

They did offer the PDF to backers for free. I already downloaded it. It seems people have been getting phsyical copies that didn't actually order one, which is why I asked.

I've had a few mix ups with Mantic, but they've come through for me every time. Now if only I could say the same for my brother who lives just a few blocks from me...

Biggest "whoops" I can accuse Mantic of was giving me teams I didn't order for DBX like many other people.

Huh, I didn't get any PDF's other than the original Rulebook. Were we supposed to get the campaign as well? I'm pretty sure we weren't supposed to get Uncharted Empires, though it would be nice since I already bought a paper copy to have the digital too.

Mantic should do that even if GW doesn't.

from facebook

Mantic Games

Hi Ronnie here.
These are just some of the unclaimed returns we have had back from the postmasters for various reasons. Please check your email to see if you have had a notification from us that your pledge has been returned and we can get it resent. Cheers.

If they need people to take packages off their hands.. I would volunteer..

Not that I was in the Kickstarter... but ..

 Hulksmash wrote:
Huh, I didn't get any PDF's other than the original Rulebook. Were we supposed to get the campaign as well? I'm pretty sure we weren't supposed to get Uncharted Empires, though it would be nice since I already bought a paper copy to have the digital too.

Mantic should do that even if GW doesn't.

You should have a Kickstarter message from Mantic with the link:

https://www.manticdigital.com/product/destiny-of-kings/

Select "free PDF for Kickstarter backers" and check out - I presume that the email for your Mantic Digital account needs to be the same as the one you used ot back the Kickstarter.

 Bioptic wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Huh, I didn't get any PDF's other than the original Rulebook. Were we supposed to get the campaign as well? I'm pretty sure we weren't supposed to get Uncharted Empires, though it would be nice since I already bought a paper copy to have the digital too.

Mantic should do that even if GW doesn't.

You should have a Kickstarter message from Mantic with the link:

https://www.manticdigital.com/product/destiny-of-kings/

Select "free PDF for Kickstarter backers" and check out - I presume that the email for your Mantic Digital account needs to be the same as the one you used ot back the Kickstarter.

This worked for me, even though I never got the email invite.

Me too. I suspect everyone who wants a copy can have one.

 Bioptic wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Huh, I didn't get any PDF's other than the original Rulebook. Were we supposed to get the campaign as well? I'm pretty sure we weren't supposed to get Uncharted Empires, though it would be nice since I already bought a paper copy to have the digital too.

Mantic should do that even if GW doesn't.

You should have a Kickstarter message from Mantic with the link:

https://www.manticdigital.com/product/destiny-of-kings/

Select "free PDF for Kickstarter backers" and check out - I presume that the email for your Mantic Digital account needs to be the same as the one you used ot back the Kickstarter.

Thank you, thank you! Sam-I-Am!
This is better 'n Green Eggs an' ham!

It's been annoying me - I upped my pledge in the pledge manager, but had not gotten my link.

The Auld Grump

Hey thanks for that link. I never got my email either (and I even bought the printed book!)

Never got the Email either, it probably got lost with my pledge.

So I filled out for the free PDF and I got a receipt, but no link or PDF in my email. Where Do I have to go for that?

Nevermind, I found it

 Krinsath wrote:
You only have to be worried when AlexHolker says the same...at which point you should phone the authorities as clearly Ronnie is holding a gun to his head.

The Abyssals were another army I was actually pondering, mainly because I can envision a paint scheme for the succubi, so it's good to hear that they turned out well enough to please someone who's not hesitant to be critical. Might actually grab a box to futz about with when they're released to retail. Now, it's doubtful I could *execute* my envisioned scheme of course, but that's a separate problem; my painting skills are very much almost.

Yeah, I'm very happy with all four HIPS kits that I received - Lizards, Naiads, Abyssals and Succubi. If you like the aesthetics of the models, I've got no qualms recommending any or all of them.

Question about the crazy box:


I haven't gotten one of these in years, is the 85$ box worth it?

THoughts on the box from last year?

I dont think they had a box at that exact pricepoint last year.

 Bioptic wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Huh, I didn't get any PDF's other than the original Rulebook. Were we supposed to get the campaign as well? I'm pretty sure we weren't supposed to get Uncharted Empires, though it would be nice since I already bought a paper copy to have the digital too.

Mantic should do that even if GW doesn't.

You should have a Kickstarter message from Mantic with the link:

https://www.manticdigital.com/product/destiny-of-kings/

Select "free PDF for Kickstarter backers" and check out - I presume that the email for your Mantic Digital account needs to be the same as the one you used ot back the Kickstarter.

Thanks! I didn't get a message or email but this is very appreciated for the heads up

 Compel wrote:
I dont think they had a box at that exact pricepoint last year.

Yeah, I think they had a general £25 box, and a £25 Sci-Fi box last year. There was some pretty decent stuff in the smaller boxes (large metal models priced at £10, terrain sprues, bags of Mars Attacks stuff, Warpath Vehicles, Kings of War 10-model sprues), but they also seem to chuck in a certain amount of whatever they're trying to get rid of (e.g. last year I think everyone got a Marauder command sprue, since they're phasing them out). It's probably proportionately better value if you don't already have a lot of Mantic stuff!

EDIT: Also, I've read through the Destiny of Kings Campaign, and it seems pretty good if not revolutionary. Always nice to have context for battles.

It also includes KoW stats for the Dungeon Saga core characters, and a Dungeon Saga scenario as part of the campaign, if people aren't aware!

Emails were sent out via Kickstarter, so if you didn't get it you should check your spam folder or Kickstarter messages.

That was meant to be a private link to backers shared with backers only, because it's being shared here we've taken that link offline. Thanks for ruining it for everyone!

colonelgrib wrote:
Emails were sent out via Kickstarter, so if you didn't get it you should check your spam folder or Kickstarter messages.

That was meant to be a private link to backers shared with backers only, because it's being shared here we've taken that link offline. Thanks for ruining it for everyone!

I'd point out that I checked my spam, kickstarter messages, email on 3 accounts, and every other place I can think of. No message. We're not computer special needs individuals. Most of us will have checked those places once we find out it was supposed to go out.

I, for one, don't appreciate the scolding tone (granted it's the internet so maybe you didn't mean it that way). Mantic has issues with quite a few things. I know there had to have been an issue with this because I got my email link/message for the actual rulebook. So instead of blaming people who gave you money in advance for a product to help you make it (supposedly) I'd appreciate a bit better customer service along the lines of

"Apologies if you did not receive the email sent out via Kickstarter. Unfortunately as the link was shared publicly it is no longer active. However if you have not received your digital copy of the campaign please contact customer service and we'll get it resolved for you."

Not that hard.

I also legitimately did not know that it was a "private link", any more than a link to a Kickstarter pledge manager is a "private link". I was already logged into my Mantic Digital account at the time, and I can't believe that Mantic actually put out a link that was not email/account-protected in any way.

colonelgrib wrote:
That was meant to be a private link to backers shared with backers only, because it's being shared here we've taken that link offline. Thanks for ruining it for everyone!

Agree with the above post by Hulksmash, but also, this is the final straw for me Mantic - I will never buy another product from you given the attitude displayed here. The original post stated "I presume that the email for your Mantic Digital account needs to be the same as the one you used to back the Kickstarter." This was clearly not done with the intent to spread backer only content - the guy who posted the link didn't think that non backers would be able to access it and was purely trying to help out yet another of the customers let down by your general poor handling of.... quite frankly, pretty much everything. Perhaps instead of insulting him, you should have put suitable measures in place, as it was presumed you would have, to ensure that the general public could not access the content. This is your failing and I'm appalled by your post. Highly unprofessional.

I'm sure Mantic will send an official message out with details as such however I know that the link to the book was sent out via Kickstarter to all eligible backers, so I'm not sure what's going on there, but Mantic know about it and can look into it.

As I'm not a customer service representative, or employee of Mantic I can safely say that the tone was most definitely meant to be scolding. The link was sent out to backers clearing stating it was private and not to share it. Just because Mantic have had "issues" doesn't mean its ok for people to get things free that they aren't entitled to.

So the link was accessible to anyone, and not protected by any kind of requirement to log in or use a unique redemption code?

If the intention was not to allow public sharing of the link, perhaps some steps should have been taken to secure it beyond "only send it to backers and hope they don't share it".

Ah, not a mantic representative. Just someone who decided to act like he was. That's a little better I suppose.

I just saw a new poster who stated things I figured most people wouldn't be aware of who was scolding us so I assumed from the writing you were employed in some way by Mantic.

Probably be a good thing for a Mantic rep to come in and help out with

Additionally I don't doubt that the message was sent out. However the number of people who didn't receive it seems rather high based on the percentage of Dakka users that didn't get it. So there was obviously a glitch somewhere. Showing your butt about it doesn't change that fact

 Hulksmash wrote:

I just saw a new poster who stated things I figured most people wouldn't be aware of who was scolding us so I assumed from the writing you were employed in some way by Mantic.

The phrase "we've taken that link offline" also seemed to suggest he was an employee.

Yeah. The way it was typed definitely suggested being part of the staff. Good to know he isn't, as his attitude is terrible.

I really don't want to appear overly defensive on this, but this is the entirety of the message that was sent to me via Kickstarter:

Dear Backer,

Thank you for backing the Kings of War 2 Kickstarter!

We're pleased to let you know that Kings of War Wave II is now shipping (See Update 61 for more details), and that your copy of the Destiny of Kings Campaign Book is now available to download from Mantic Digital.

To claim your downloadable copy, please follow this URL here: 


https://www.manticdigital.com/product/destiny-of-kings/

Please follow these instructions: 


- Click the Destiny of Kings link above

- Under Format, select Free PDF for backers. Alternatively you can choose to upgrade to the enhanced eBook edition for a small fee, saving over 50% off the RRP


- Click Add to Cart


- Click Proceed to Checkout

- Fill out the Billing Details section, click Place Order, and then follow the instructions on screen.

Merry Christmas!

Thanks,

The Mantic Team

It's not a garbled secret link, it is quite literally the link to the product page on which they will presumably be selling the item directly upon release.

People really don't like being told off do they

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Yeah. The way it was typed definitely suggested being part of the staff. Good to know he isn't, as his attitude is terrible.

Unless it's a sock puppet account and it is an employee blowing off steam.

colonelgrib wrote:
People really don't like being told off do they

Especially by someone who acts as if they have some sort of control of the situation, or are part of the entity that is being spoken about. But the speed at which you backpeddled is amazing, you should run for political office. Unfortunately Mantic has made so many great decisions that your message fits right inline with expectations. Oh and I'm another backer who didn't receive the email link, so you know.

Mantic....Almost.
Fanboy......Less so

I'm owner of Geiger the company who operate Mantic Digital. So not an employee of Mantic and not the person who sent out the email with links but still someone who can help resolve the situation.

I'm not just here to be sarcastic, but I make no apologies for that, but as well I'm trying to help out by compiling a list of eligible backers from the pledgemanager who have the book in their account already. I'll then send an invite link with a one-time coupon code to everyone else who should have it (look for that coming from info AT manticdigital DOT COM)

Wow, so the employee of a company subcontracted by Mantic.

That, in this instance, makes you an employee of Mantic.

Also someone who seems peeved that his companies handling of the actual distribution was stupid and poor and is taking it out on others in a piss poor form of customer service.

Seriously, I stand by all you had to say was;

"I'm owner of Geiger the company who operate Mantic Digital. Apologies if you did not receive the email sent out via Kickstarter. Unfortunately as the link was shared publicly it is no longer active. However if you have not received your digital copy of the campaign please contact customer service and we'll get it resolved for you."

I'm not here to provide customer service, we have a channel for that, I'm not an employee, I'm the owner and like I just said we didn't handle the distribution, but I am going to help resolve the situation, I can't be more helpful than that.

No Andrew (I assume), I really don't appreciate being told off. I posted the contents of my Kickstarter message above, the one I used to download my copy of the file, and nowhere in that message does it mention anything about being a private unsecured link! I'm sorry if this has caused some fires/panic at your end, but hopefully this will result in an actually secure solution for getting copies out that are still owed to backers.

I frankly don't appreciate your tone, and it doesn't do your client (Mantic) any favours either, given that they are currently struggling through openly-acknowledged problems with the quality of their customer service.

You operate the system it's being distributed on no? So you are handling distribution now even if you didn't send out the original email. It's your system that allowed it to apparently be open source to anyone (I assumed it would have to be an account linked to the actual kickstarter email).

Essentially this is your mess and you're now "here to help" after screwing the pooch and being rude. Got it

That's enough back and forth, please. Remember that rule #1 of Dakka is "Be Polite"

I'm a little bummed that I checked here yesterday and saw the link, but did not take advantage of it... I am a backer of the Kickstarter, but hadn't yet gotten the link. Colonelgrib, will your company be putting up a (not publicly shared) replacement for those of us who did not yet get our Kickstarter copy?

I didn't get the mail either, and in Bioptic's defense the content of the mail said nothing about not sharing it, and the link just looked like a product purchase page (which seems to currently be publicly accessible from the front page of manticdigital.com anyway?).

At this point, the best solution would probably be making a new link and then having Mantic post it as a "backers only" update.

It will mean that $1-only backers get the .pdf as well, but that's not really much of a concern.

Anyway, the book is really great, my club is running a 6-round map campaign using the rules in the book, getting my abyssals put together for it.

If the email did not say that the link was private then I apologise, it was my understanding that it did.

This isn't a support channel, if backers have not received items that they should have, digital or otherwise then Mantic have systems in place for backers to get in touch. The backers here could also have easily have contacted us via the support tab at Mantic Digital where we could actually confirm if they are eligible.

Perhaps I overreacted initially but I don't think the link should have been shared publicly as it's obvious that people will take advantage of it and I don't think that's fair on the people who put hard work into making and testing the product. Regardless of how people feel about Mantic's customer service there are real people and real fans making this stuff.

I think my favorite thing about the last two pages in this thread is that actual mantic employees use this forum and will get to see this shining gem of customer relations.

colonelgrib wrote:
If the email did not say that the link was private then I apologise, it was my understanding that it did.

This isn't a support channel, if backers have not received items that they should have, digital or otherwise then Mantic have systems in place for backers to get in touch. The backers here could also have easily have contacted us via the support tab at Mantic Digital where we could actually confirm if they are eligible.

Perhaps I overreacted initially but I don't think the link should have been shared publicly as it's obvious that people will take advantage of it and I don't think that's fair on the people who put hard work into making and testing the product. Regardless of how people feel about Mantic's customer service there are real people and real fans making this stuff.

except how are we to know that it was out there and we missed it unless someone posts about it here K sure don't sit around refreshing Mantics page, Dakkadakka-Yes, Mantics

colonelgrib wrote:
Emails were sent out via Kickstarter, so if you didn't get it you should check your spam folder or Kickstarter messages.

That was meant to be a private link to backers shared with backers only, because it's being shared here we've taken that link offline. Thanks for ruining it for everyone!

I get the emails for every single Mantic kickstarter, as well as the Mantic newsletter. I received no link. If it weren't for this thread, I would not have even known the PDF was available.

colonelgrib wrote:
If the email did not say that the link was private then I apologise, it was my understanding that it did.

This isn't a support channel, if backers have not received items that they should have, digital or otherwise then Mantic have systems in place for backers to get in touch. The backers here could also have easily have contacted us via the support tab at Mantic Digital where we could actually confirm if they are eligible.

Perhaps I overreacted initially but I don't think the link should have been shared publicly as it's obvious that people will take advantage of it and I don't think that's fair on the people who put hard work into making and testing the product. Regardless of how people feel about Mantic's customer service there are real people and real fans making this stuff.

So you signed up for a forum to scold someone for something you misunderstood. Sigh...

I'm also a backer got no email and was happy to see the link to get what I paid for. Lord knows, Mantic usually puts you through some hell to get stuff. The book itself is very nice. It's pretty polished, and while it's not groundbreaking, it's some of mantic's better work.

Edit:Never mind.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

colonelgrib wrote:
I'm owner of Geiger the company who operate Mantic Digital. So not an employee of Mantic and not the person who sent out the email with links but still someone who can help resolve the situation.

I'm not just here to be sarcastic, but I make no apologies for that, but as well I'm trying to help out by compiling a list of eligible backers from the pledgemanager who have the book in their account already. I'll then send an invite link with a one-time coupon code to everyone else who should have it (look for that coming from info AT manticdigital DOT COM)

So Geiger is the company we should write in to Mantic to tell them to stop using? Thanks.

Okay guys, point's made regarding Geiger... let's move on please.

A Dakkanaut was kind enough to get me a copy since I didn't get my email link, really appreciate it!

Now that I'm finally home after holiday travel I am hoping to check and see that my FLGS has the hard copy of Uncharted Empires in-stock. They're already carrying the main rulebook, which I have a few copies of (to loan out and hook others ).

Also in the campaign supplement there are some much better pictures of the large golem... it really does look better with arms down in a "gorilla" like pose. Still not my favorite, but it's so much better than the arms raised build!

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Edit:Never mind.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

colonelgrib wrote:
I'm owner of Geiger the company who operate Mantic Digital. So not an employee of Mantic and not the person who sent out the email with links but still someone who can help resolve the situation.

I'm not just here to be sarcastic, but I make no apologies for that, but as well I'm trying to help out by compiling a list of eligible backers from the pledgemanager who have the book in their account already. I'll then send an invite link with a one-time coupon code to everyone else who should have it (look for that coming from info AT manticdigital DOT COM)

So Geiger is the company we should write in to Mantic to tell them to stop using? Thanks.

Geiger's the company that made the Mantic Digital App and book readers.
I for one have bought a couple of books through them and have been very impressed. Mostly because I found a slight error in one and "moaned" on the forums one weekend. Before the end of the weekend, Geiger had got in touch with me, sorted out the error and put out an updated version.

I hope Bob's comment was sarcasm... I just can't tell.

This info is all very helpful, clearly a lot of people didn't get the link to the book which was sent by Mantic via Kickstarter. Normally we handle digital distribution ourselves but since Kickstarter already provided a way to contact backers of certain pledge levels that method was chosen. There's certainly some sort of problem there and I'll be sure to let Mantic know. I may have been sarcastic in my first post but I signed up to help the situation not try to make it worse.

If you haven't gotten a digital product that you feel you should have been entitled to then please go to manticdigital.com and use the support tab at the right. Give us the name of the book you should have and the email address and level of Kickstarter that you backed and we will help you immediately. Alternatively you can contact Mantic but that might take longer to get addressed. Unfortunately if you choose to reply on the forum that you didn't get a book but don't contact us at all then we can't help.

One final note reading back on posts it seems some of you guys backed at the $1 level, that could be why you didn't get this link as its only for $50 backers and up.

Thanks
Andrew

Bob is always serious; that's how he became an inquisitor.

On the radioactive sideshow, all I'll say is in a public space it is never smart to go hurling invective without solid information about the entire situation, and even then the short-term satisfaction is usually not at all worth it. Heck, even when I *know* someone has screwed up and have documentation to prove it I'm still generally hesitant to publicly call someone out instead of talking off-to-the-side. You can always add more words if needed later, but it's exceedingly difficult to take words away especially on the Internet.

Back to the main thrust of the thread, between Az and blackfang it sounds like I'll have to keep my eyes open for when the succubi and naiads hit the retail shelves. As someone mildly obsessed with dragons I really want to like the Salamanders, possibly as a basis for conversion into draconians, but I just can't see it working out. Since it's doubtful that's an original idea, has anyone already tried it?

colonelgrib wrote:
People really don't like being told off do they

Hello, and welcome to the Ignore List - enjoy your stay.

Many people, myself among them, did not receive the links that they were legitimately entitled to - and had sent e-mails that were never responded to.

They had reason to be concerned. I sent my email weeks ago, and never got a reply.

You are neither a Mod for Dakka nor a representative of the company - yet your behavior reflects poorly upon the company that you claim to be defending.

The post that should have mentioned the little detail that you have no standing with Mantic, and had neither authority from nor connection with the company.

That the link had no means of checking for the status of the person using the link... is a concern for Mantic - but do not get upon a high horse when preaching that people had no right to use the link - because many of them do.

The Auld Grump


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiTides wrote:
Okay guys, point's made regarding Geiger... let's move on please.

A Dakkanaut was kind enough to get me a copy since I didn't get my email link, really appreciate it!

Now that I'm finally home after holiday travel I am hoping to check and see that my FLGS has the hard copy of Uncharted Empires in-stock. They're already carrying the main rulebook, which I have a few copies of (to loan out and hook others ).

Also in the campaign supplement there are some much better pictures of the large golem... it really does look better with arms down in a "gorilla" like pose. Still not my favorite, but it's so much better than the arms raised build!

The fact remains that PrivateGrib is the one that overstepped the bounds - folks do have a right to be disgruntled with him.

Coming down on the folks responding to him, but not to the initial offender, is not cool, eh?

Moving on - I am very happy with Uncharted Empires. I am even considering *GASP!* buying some Tomb King figures - simply because I like the Empire of Dust so much. (For months I have been trying to get somebody else to run the Mummy's Mask Pathfinder series - I really want to play for a change - but if I break down and buy some Tomb Kings... I will likely break down and run Mummy's Mask as well.

The Auld Grump

colonelgrib wrote:
One final note reading back on posts it seems some of you guys backed at the $1 level, that could be why you didn't get this link as its only for $50 backers and up.

I assume so as well, but the thing is, many of us increased our pledges later in the manager. The system sending out this pdf seems to only have done so for backers who put in 50$ through Kickstarter itself.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

colonelgrib wrote:
One final note reading back on posts it seems some of you guys backed at the $1 level, that could be why you didn't get this link as its only for $50 backers and up.

I assume so as well, but the thing is, many of us increased our pledges later in the manager. The system sending out this pdf seems to only have done so for backers who put in 50$ through Kickstarter itself.

Exactly.

I bought an entire freakin' army in the Pledge Manager.

I have indeed pledged above the $1, and Mantic really needs to address this. (Bear in mind - I really like Mantic, and have pledged in every one of their Kickstarters except Mars Attacks... and missed that one by about fifteen minutes.)

The Auld Grump

I bought Ultimate Tyrant, plus add ons, as a late backer. Should I be getting this .pdf too?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Moving on - I am very happy with Uncharted Empires. I am even considering *GASP!* buying some Tomb King figures - simply because I like the Empire of Dust so much.

My wife liked the idea of a Werewolf army using the Herd list, so we bought a ton of Confrontation pre-paints on clearance at MM. 2000 point painted Herd army for ~$60 is probably one of the best deals in gaming that I've gotten

I also have a ton of Wargames Factory/Gripping Beast/Field of Glory Dark Age and Celt minis in the cupboard to make a Varangur list.

Uncharted Empires is doing a great job at selling other companies' minis it seems!

Uncharted Empires has certainly motivated me to get back to work on my rats and lizards, that's for sure.

It's also got me eyeing cheap eBay lots of Tomb Kings as well... that's not good!

I wouldn't mind seeing what Mantic could do if they wanted to do their own versions of some of the Uncharted Empires races.

I've been wondering for a while how easy the Veer Myn plastics will be to modify into Ratkin...

 Alex C wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Moving on - I am very happy with Uncharted Empires. I am even considering *GASP!* buying some Tomb King figures - simply because I like the Empire of Dust so much.

My wife liked the idea of a Werewolf army using the Herd list, so we bought a ton of Confrontation pre-paints on clearance at MM. 2000 point painted Herd army for ~$60 is probably one of the best deals in gaming that I've gotten

I also have a ton of Wargames Factory/Gripping Beast/Field of Glory Dark Age and Celt minis in the cupboard to make a Varangur list.

Uncharted Empires is doing a great job at selling other companies' minis it seems!

Sadly, this is the case. But it is also doing an excellent job of letting people use their existing armies - my Empire forces rejoice!

But then I have also put a lot of money into Mantic figures, so it evens out. (I have armies of Mantic Undead, Dwarfs, and Orcs.... Abyssals on the way... considering Nature.... Kings of War has me back to having multiple armies. ) And my good lady is building a massive Goblin force. (Her method is very different from my own - I do up an army list, then buy what I need for the army. She gets the figures that she likes, then builds an army to use it with. My force is aimed at ~2,500 - she is aiming at 3,000. Plus, she has called dibs on the hill giants from our Bones II pledge reward....)

The Auld Grump - and I have enough Ogres to use as an allied force.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Sadly, this is the case.

But then I have also put a lot of money into Mantic figures, so it evens out. (I have armies of Mantic Undead, Dwarfs, and Orcs.... Abyssals on the way... considering Nature.... Kings of War has me back to having multiple armies. )

The Auld Grump - and I have enough Ogres to use as an allied force.

I know what you mean I have complete armies of Mantic Orcs, Undead, Ogres and Abyssals. Wife has Mantic Dwarfs, Elves, Basileans and Nature. We've got Goblins, Herd and Varangur from other minis lines. All this for probably as much as a few WFB armies would have cost.

The game is just so good and accessible with lots of options to use a wide variety of minis, it really caters to collecting lots of armies, and with the allies system you can use a lot of it together too.

That's cool that you get to play with your ladyfriend as well. I must admit we follow her style of army building too!

I will say between uncharted empires and gw's getting starter bundles I've just dropped around $600. Granted that was to GW and not mantic because I just like the GW aesthetic for the Salamanders and beastmen/chaos. But I might actually eventually pick up a nature/Fishman army from them if they ever mostly round out the ranges with plastic.

I will probably still use gw models for ratkin, elves (of both types), dwarves, and basilia. But I'll mix gw and mantic for my eventual undead armies.

Overall kudos to mantic for getting me excited about fantasy again.

Agreed, and I do hope to buy more Mantic models in the future - right now I've talked a ton of folks into buying the rules, and if the minis can catch up, Mantic has a huge underserved market available to them.

Jeez, guys. I'm pretty critical of Mantic, but I at least buy their models.



On clearance.



But in all seriousness, I've spent more with Mantic the last four years or so than with any other company. ( Might rethink that if they don't get it together.)

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Alex C wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Moving on - I am very happy with Uncharted Empires. I am even considering *GASP!* buying some Tomb King figures - simply because I like the Empire of Dust so much.

My wife liked the idea of a Werewolf army using the Herd list, so we bought a ton of Confrontation pre-paints on clearance at MM. 2000 point painted Herd army for ~$60 is probably one of the best deals in gaming that I've gotten

I also have a ton of Wargames Factory/Gripping Beast/Field of Glory Dark Age and Celt minis in the cupboard to make a Varangur list.

Uncharted Empires is doing a great job at selling other companies' minis it seems!

Sadly, this is the case. But it is also doing an excellent job of letting people use their existing armies - my Empire forces rejoice!

But then I have also put a lot of money into Mantic figures, so it evens out. (I have armies of Mantic Undead, Dwarfs, and Orcs.... Abyssals on the way... considering Nature.... Kings of War has me back to having multiple armies. ) And my good lady is building a massive Goblin force. (Her method is very different from my own - I do up an army list, then buy what I need for the army. She gets the figures that she likes, then builds an army to use it with. My force is aimed at ~2,500 - she is aiming at 3,000. Plus, she has called dibs on the hill giants from our Bones II pledge reward....)

The Auld Grump - and I have enough Ogres to use as an allied force.

I love the KoW rules, but for now Mantic's miniatures just aren't up to snuff imho. I'm very happy to have the option to build an uncharted empires army with other manufacturers models though! Perhaps Mantic will come up with models that really tempt me, but for now they're getting my money for the rules, but not figures.

Valete,

JohnS

colonelgrib wrote:
Emails were sent out via Kickstarter, so if you didn't get it you should check your spam folder or Kickstarter messages.

That was meant to be a private link to backers shared with backers only, because it's being shared here we've taken that link offline. Thanks for ruining it for everyone!

Yeah, I didn't get one. At all. Nor did quite a few of us, apparently. I'll also thank you not to speak to us with that kind of tone because you're not doing yourself or Mantic any favours in terms of customer service of reputation with that kind of attitude. And yes, the link took us to the Mantic Digital store and a normal-looking product link, so following it looked like "Oh, there it is, I guess while they might have fethed up the email they at least added it to my digital account".

Deleted the second, harsher part. And yes Alex, you should have gotten one as well. Not to mention the digital army-building app (if that ever got made/finished).

Cygnnus - Agreed, and I'm wanting to support them more and more, but need to see more things like their lesser golems (which I have a bunch of) to justify it. Really looking forward to the next KoW items from them - I know they've got The Walking Dead but this could be a really strong base for them.

Huh, I didn't know I was due more stuff, mainly because I pledged $1 and added the rest in with the PM. Would have been nice to know about the rest. Glad I have Dakka to let me know about this kind of stuff!

Digital army list app is still being worked on, I reviewed it a month or so ago and it needed some work.

It's functional, but I imagine a lot of people will keep using easyarmy since it's easier to build/ print lists on a PC screen rather than a mobile app.

I'm getting into KoW, but I do agree that their models aren't as good as GW's, which is why I won't be buying much. Sure, having 3 full GW WHFB armies helps, but Basiliea have tempted me (partly so I can use my Phoenixes and partly because of the Lion guy) but generally the models don't excite me.

I will be picking up a unit of Werewolves for Undead though - theose are certainly nice models.

Mantics new approach to customer service has a pretty poor start, at least for me. I do appreciate the general email updates, but one note in the last one about "stock shortages" annoyed me.

This is Kickstarter, which while it's not meant to be a pre-order system, is in fact more involved than simple pre-order. They know up front how many of what people want. Feeling annoyed at still not receiving my trays and counters from Wave 1 (despite an assurance in December that they'd shipped), I shared my thoughts in the comments to their facebook post about getting out orders"

Polonius wrote: I'm also upset that the last update mentioned stock outages. We're Kickstarter backers... You knew ahead of time how many of everything you needed!

Maybe a touch snarky, but I am, in fact, upset that something that's readily available in their webstore, that should have been delivered in July, hasn't arrived yet. The Response:

Mantic Games wrote:But not how many would go missing, be damaged, or backers whose orders didn't go through. Add a two month lead time for production and you get stock shortages.

Yes, mantic, there is no way on earth to know how many will be lost to damage. No way at all. I cannot think of a single way to avoid ordering exactly what you need, than crying when you run out. No wait, the opposite.

Polonius wrote:Oh my, is that the wrong answer. Guys, people have been waiting for months for things they paid for literally over a year ago. Anybody with any business sense knows that there are ways to estimate loss rates, that you either failed to do so or did so improperly is something you should be apologize for, not getting huffy and defensive about.

It's particularly ironic, given that the kickstarter model asks consumers to estimate what they will want well in advance, often with very hazy information about the product.

Still, my problem is that I pledged for a bunch of movement trays, which were a wave one item, yet still haven't received mine, or the counter set. I got an email saying they were shipped in December, but still I have no trays (or response to my emails). The invoice showed you ran out of them while packing the first wave, which seems really weird to me. This experience has greatly affected how I pledged in the Warpath kickstarter (just a buck so far).

They have my money, and have had it for about a year now. I may or may not get what I ordered. I think I'm done with Mantic kickstarters, and while I enjoy Kings of War, I think I'm more a fan of that than the company at this point. Which is sad to me.

I'm totally done with Kickstarters as a whole. And Mantic's way of doing things as of late is also starting to seriously annoy me, even if I'm in no position to complain as (luckily) I haven't taken part in any of their crowdfundings.

In my experience, miniature-based crowdfundings end up being mere pre-orders where you get a reasonable discount in exchange of not knowing when you're going to get what you paid for. I know of a very few select companies that have successfully completed crowdfundings and delivered everything within expectations (mostly small bloodbowl/fantasy football crowdfundings) but most of the time things are prone to going south pretty quickly.

@Polonius, well said. I think the biggest fault though lies squarely on their use of their own pledgemanager system. If you remember it lost 200 backers basic pledge levels, so any breakage that they had planned simply was swallowed up by that......except for your trays that were not part of a basic pledge level.

I haven't decided if I will post continuously in the walking dead kickstarter about the FUBAR that this kickstarter has been. I feel sorry for anyone who backs The Walking Dead without knowing Mantics background. Yes! Yes! people should do research before backing any projects, but for most people they will read mantics little blurb about we have successfully delivered XXX many kickstarters and we are a growing company that has done a tremendous amount of behind the scenes work to get this project ready so far.

Also just ordered Uncharted Empires from Thewarstore.com. I love KOW, Mantic....not so much.

My FLGS started carrying Uncharted Empires and I picked up a copy last night. Great to see it gaining traction around here!

I'm starting to drift quite deep into Mantic fanboi territory, but I'd still be wary of getting involved with any KS of theirs.

The Walking dead one is supposedly a simple one without a load of addons and levels. If they take that route in the future I might consider backing.

Most KS's that's too convoluted inevitably runs into delays and faulty shipping.

 Zywus wrote:
I'm starting to drift quite deep into Mantic fanboi territory, but I'd still be wary of getting involved with any KS of theirs.

The Walking dead one is supposedly a simple one without a load of addons and levels. If they take that route in the future I might consider backing.

Most KS's that's too convoluted inevitably runs into delays and faulty shipping.

If they go this route I really don't see the point of backing it, there has to be some incentive to back the game over buying retail (discounts). Hopefully the Kickstarter version will have alternate sculpts or something to make it worthwhile.

Isn't a discount and some limited ed. sculpts enough you think?

Given:
1) Mantic's KS shipping fethup record.
2) Mantic's material-change with no notice record.
3) Mantic's variable sculpt quality.
4) Mantic's "may or may not closely or vaguely resemble the concept art" record.
5) Mantic's model QA record (major warpage!)
6) $100 KS buy-in for a $50rrp game.
7) Shipping charges on top which erode the discount...
8) ...with potential customs charges for US backers if they send FedEx that erode the discount even more.
9) Versus waiting to see what the final product is like...
10) ...and getting it at a substantial discount from Miniature Market or other discount retailers...
11) ...if it's actually any good.

Then they may need to do a bit more than a discount and some LE sculpts. For some of us, anyway.

My point is having convoluted campaigns with too many different add-ons and pledge levels was precisely what has caused the Mantic KS's to have such problems with deliveries.

I'd preferably have a simple KS, made to fund the basics, at a simple discount and then see the add on stuff appear at retail; rather than promising the world and then making a mess of it trying to fit everything into a KS, getting stuff out a year or two late and half the packages containing the wrong stuff.

The other issues (such as material-change or the final product not resembling concept art) is another issue and anyone feeling let down by previous KS's should probably sit the next ones out until they see that amends have been made.

Yeah, I won't be ordering anything from their KS's without seeing very good quality shots of the miniatures before I do so. I was caught out on the first Kickstarter, expecting to have an awesome Basilean army for use, and then we saw the sculpts and welp... I had to shift over to buying Ogres instead, which I haven't used at all.

One thing I did want to get from KoW 2.0 was one of the goblin catapults. But in the pledge manager it was an extra $20US to ship to me! For a $15 item! No thanks.

As an aside... Mantic I really do like your Dwarf Beserkers. But $25US for 5 miniatures??? Come on guys!

 Fenriswulf wrote:

As an aside... Mantic I really do like your Dwarf Beserkers. But $25US for 5 miniatures??? Come on guys!

I don't think they are actually Mantic minis, are they? I seem to remember them being made by another company.

As for the Goblin war machines, I wonder how easily they could be scratch built?

 Nostromodamus wrote:

 Fenriswulf wrote:

As an aside... Mantic I really do like your Dwarf Beserkers. But $25US for 5 miniatures??? Come on guys!

I don't think they are actually Mantic minis, are they? I seem to remember them being made by another company.

As for the Goblin war machines, I wonder how easily they could be scratch built?

Mantic has metal berserkers. Avatars of War sells plastic berserkers that come in a box of 20 for, uh, maybe $40. The AoW berserkers are in GW style and damn fine plastics. The Mantic berserkers are Mantic scaled in that they are kind of true scaled, but out of scale with the Mantic plastics.

Avatars of War, that's what I was thinking of. I thought they were the ones Mantic sold. My mistake.

Is the Mantic Forum still unavailable? Or is it just me?

 Zywus wrote:
My point is having convoluted campaigns with too many different add-ons and pledge levels was precisely what has caused the Mantic KS's to have such problems with deliveries.
I'd preferably have a simple KS, made to fund the basics, at a simple discount and then see the add on stuff appear at retail; rather than promising the world and then making a mess of it trying to fit everything into a KS, getting stuff out a year or two late and half the packages containing the wrong stuff.

I'm in full agreement with you here on this stuff.
I was simply suggesting why a small discount, and a couple of unique sculpts might not be "enough" for some people.

 Nostromodamus wrote:
I don't think they are actually Mantic minis, are they? I seem to remember them being made by another company.

As for the Goblin war machines, I wonder how easily they could be scratch built?

Yeah, as above they are Avatars of War... But since I will be using LotR Dwarves for a Dwarf force of miniatures, the Mantic ones scale a lot better and look a lot more similar than the AoW ones.

As for the Goblin war machine, I was hoping to see if I could snag an old style Goblin Man Mangler from way back and use that. Or more likely, do a conversion of the existing skeleton catapult and make it magnetised to be both a sharpstick shooter or catapult as needed. While I like some parts of the new Goblin catapult, it does have some lackluster design looks to it, which is unfortunate.

Which is Mantic's problem all round. I want to play Kings of War, I just don't really want to play it with too many of their miniatures. If they've hired a new customer service team to keep customers happy, they should also invest in some good sculpters, either in physical media sculpting or 3d sculpting. If they came out with kits again that were as good as the original skeletons, or better, at a good price point, they could really capture a big corner of this market. Unfortunately it seems this is thrown out the window in an effort to get more average-poor kits produced quickly, just so they have product to sell.

Mantic - Invest in making some really great minis and it will pay big dividends for you. Now you have a lot of the forces fleshed out, select one force and have someone re-do the miniatures for that line from the ground up, making them fit together thematically and start offering some sprue plastic sets which give people the ability to use parts of these to do conversions within their units, increasing their desirability. You at minimum need an art director and at least one or two talented sculpters that can follow and emulate concept art closely so that the finished miniature looks as close as possible to it (and so you don't have a repeat of the failures of such units as the Basilean Sisterhood, Trolls, or Werewolves).

Or just stay as you are using kickstarter after kickstarter to try and churn as many sales as possible, while not being able to capitalise on them nearly as much because people don't want to buy the figures at anything more than KS prices, or the miniatures just aren't as nice as to warrant more interest for them than there is, and retailers want to stay away for the above two reasons. Kickstarter and your successes with it should be a golden opportunity to mark out a very definitive spot for you in the market with long term selling opportunities on miniatures which should be made to as high a quality and standard as possible. Letting sub-par sculpts slip through and form the core of your KoW line is a wasted opportunity.

Some of their stuff is getting better, thankfully. The Lizardmans from the KoW KS are quite nice. Nice enough ti prompt me to buy two of the GW "Start Collecting: Seraphon" boxes. Add those to the Mantic Lizards and the stuff I already had, and now I've got a Lizardmans army for KoW. Only some of it is Mantic models, but it's an improvement on many of their other lines.

The problem is that they're not consistent, and I'm now too cautious to lay money down on anything that's not a HIPS render. Trusting them on anything resin just went out the window with the recent WP stuff, and their new boardgame plastic isn't something I can trust after my DS experience. Even if people who haven't actually fixed their warped models yet "don't anticipate any problems".

So.. yeah. HIPS or GTFO.

sithkhan wrote:
Is the Mantic Forum still unavailable? Or is it just me?

You may need to delete your history and your cookies to fix that problem. That worked for me when I was having the same problem.

 Azazelx wrote:
Some of their stuff is getting better, thankfully. The Lizardmans from the KoW KS are quite nice. Nice enough ti prompt me to buy two of the GW "Start Collecting: Seraphon" boxes. Add those to the Mantic Lizards and the stuff I already had, and now I've got a Lizardmans army for KoW. Only some of it is Mantic models, but it's an improvement on many of their other lines.

The problem is that they're not consistent, and I'm now too cautious to lay money down on anything that's not a HIPS render. Trusting them on anything resin just went out the window with the recent WP stuff, and their new boardgame plastic isn't something I can trust after my DS experience. Even if people who haven't actually fixed their warped models yet "don't anticipate any problems".

So.. yeah. HIPS or GTFO.

The new KoW kits are fantastic, really happy with the Abyssal army I'm building at the moment. Best models Mantic have released in a very long time and mark a return to the quality of the Undead miniatures line.

I have to agree that HIPS is king, both in terms of value and quality, which is why I've gone ahead with the Shieldwolf KS as a way of adding to the abyssal army (Orcs as abyssal warriors, Xena girls for mortals and Varagnur allies).

The more non-GW manufacturers the better, really. With the amount of army lists now available, KoW can take pretty much any fantasy mini from any manufacturer that you throw at it, and provides a lot of flexibility for making any fantasy army you want to make.

I'm not sure the new night stalkers army even needs basenmodels, just grab a 3 foot tube of green stuff and go. Really looking forward to raiding my bits box and testing my sculpting/casting skills to make some gross and terrifying nonsense. Lot of good stuff in uncharted empires and the core book was solid to start.

 GrimDork wrote:
I'm not sure the new night stalkers army even needs basenmodels, just grab a 3 foot tube of green stuff and go. Really looking forward to raiding my bits box and testing my sculpting/casting skills to make some gross and terrifying nonsense. Lot of good stuff in uncharted empires and the core book was solid to start.

I haven't looked through the list in depth, but the glance-over makes me think "Cthulhu Wars models" along with "The Others: 7 Sins models". So, I guess I'll have a Night Stalkers army whenever I get around to going through my K'tulu stuff properly. And paint them.

Squig - any idea if the Historical lists for KoW are still going to be a thing?

They're definitely going to be a thing, have seen the draft document.

 Azazelx wrote:

 GrimDork wrote:
I'm not sure the new night stalkers army even needs basenmodels, just grab a 3 foot tube of green stuff and go. Really looking forward to raiding my bits box and testing my sculpting/casting skills to make some gross and terrifying nonsense. Lot of good stuff in uncharted empires and the core book was solid to start.

I haven't looked through the list in depth, but the glance-over makes me think "Cthulhu Wars models" along with "The Others: 7 Sins models". So, I guess I'll have a Night Stalkers army whenever I get around to going through my K'tulu stuff properly. And paint them.

Squig - any idea if the Historical lists for KoW are still going to be a thing?

I've used a combination of Reaper Bones, PP Hordes, Atchung Cthulhu, RAFM Cthulhu and some other odds and sods. Just waiting on another order from Reaper and my movent trays and I'll be good to go.

Does it have armies from different periods in it? As in Romans, Greeks, Vikings and English Civil War - or are they more to a certain era like Ancients/Black Powder/Dark Ages

 Azazelx wrote:
Does it have armies from different periods in it? As in Romans, Greeks, Vikings and English Civil War - or are they more to a certain era like Ancients/Black Powder/Dark Ages

Yes, different eras.

Excellent. Any rough ETA on playtesting or release? I assume it'll be compatible with the existing rules and forces?

Are the historical armies going to be historical with rule changes to go with it or is it just an expansion of the Kingdom of Men for a wider range of models?

 Azazelx wrote:
Excellent. Any rough ETA on playtesting or release? I assume it'll be compatible with the existing rules and forces?

Playtesting: no idea
Release: no idea
Existing rules: completely
Existing forces: depending on which day of the month it is, and whether there was 3cm or 4cm of rainfall in Scotland, the answer is either or , so TBC, but the last stuff I saw was somewhere between "not really" and "very much no".

AFAIK, it's in internal playtesting with the council now, and it's being balanced against the existing forces.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
AFAIK, it's in internal playtesting with the council now, and it's being balanced against the existing forces.

Someone might be looking at it, but I assure you the RC hasn't seen the document for at least 6 months

 Baragash wrote:

Existing forces: depending on which day of the month it is, and whether there was 3cm or 4cm of rainfall in Scotland, the answer is either or , so TBC, but the last stuff I saw was somewhere between "not really" and "very much no".

I mean in terms of playing "Orcs vs Romans" and having the point costs worked out using the same overall values. After all, if they'll be worked out so that the New Model Army can (theoretically, and obviously very ahistorically) fight Spartans in terms of points and rules it's not that much of a stretch to have them fight Orcs.

Because yes, I'm looking to have many more "Kingdoms of Men" and units I can dip into - to play fantasy games, historical games or interesting mixtures. Besides, I've been building a "Mythical Greek" army with both the Historical and Mythical aspects of Ancient Greece, and it'd be cooler to have actual rules for peltasts and helots and the Spartan Phalanx vs the Theban, etc in that army...

 Azazelx wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

Existing forces: depending on which day of the month it is, and whether there was 3cm or 4cm of rainfall in Scotland, the answer is either or , so TBC, but the last stuff I saw was somewhere between "not really" and "very much no".

I mean in terms of playing "Orcs vs Romans" and having the point costs worked out using the same overall values. After all, if they'll be worked out so that the New Model Army can (theoretically, and obviously very ahistorically) fight Spartans in terms of points and rules it's not that much of a stretch to have them fight Orcs.

Because yes, I'm looking to have many more "Kingdoms of Men" and units I can dip into - to play fantasy games, historical games or interesting mixtures. Besides, I've been building a "Mythical Greek" army with both the Historical and Mythical aspects of Ancient Greece, and it'd be cooler to have actual rules for peltasts and helots and the Spartan Phalanx vs the Theban, etc in that army...

1) Man did I used to love to listen to NEW MODEL ARMY back in the day!
2) Seconded - I'd like to see a system where we can do all of that!

 Azazelx wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

Existing forces: depending on which day of the month it is, and whether there was 3cm or 4cm of rainfall in Scotland, the answer is either or , so TBC, but the last stuff I saw was somewhere between "not really" and "very much no".

I mean in terms of playing "Orcs vs Romans" and having the point costs worked out using the same overall values. After all, if they'll be worked out so that the New Model Army can (theoretically, and obviously very ahistorically) fight Spartans in terms of points and rules it's not that much of a stretch to have them fight Orcs.

Because yes, I'm looking to have many more "Kingdoms of Men" and units I can dip into - to play fantasy games, historical games or interesting mixtures. Besides, I've been building a "Mythical Greek" army with both the Historical and Mythical aspects of Ancient Greece, and it'd be cooler to have actual rules for peltasts and helots and the Spartan Phalanx vs the Theban, etc in that army...

I would say "not out of the box" based on the last draft. You could (probably) ignore the time periods and play within the book quite happily but you'd have to do a little work to mix and match with Fantasy. I doubt I have enough (read: any) influence to change this but I haven't given up yet.

Is Matt still reading here? Hopefully he's a man who can see the logic and value of having them as easily compatible as possible (potentially getting more Historical players into Mantic's fantasy models, for one thing) - and hopefully enough sway to influence something like that.

That would make sense, wouldn't it?

I can see balancing historicals "close enough" against the fantasy, but there are aspects of the fantasy lists that even other fantasy armies struggle with, like fliers and Def 6+. It's going to be really difficulty to balance what are essentially variations on the Kingdoms of men list (without monsters) against the rest of the fantasy armies.

Balancing historicals against each other allows for more differentiation, which isn't something that the KoW rules only allow in broad strokes.

 Azazelx wrote:
Is Matt still reading here? Hopefully he's a man who can see the logic and value of having them as easily compatible as possible (potentially getting more Historical players into Mantic's fantasy models, for one thing) - and hopefully enough sway to influence something like that.

I don't personally see a lot of value in it... for myself I would actually prefer historicals and KoW to remain as separate as possible. The fantasy setting of Mantica is already a little more generic than I'd like, and while I think adding in Uncharted Empires had a lot of value because they were targeting a market that could get into KoW proper (models, world and everything!) I don't think the same is true of historicals.

And as Polonius mentions, I think balancing could be difficult if needing to take into account all the current KoW factions, and still allow enough differentiation between various kingdoms of men to make sense for a historical game.

Yeah, I'd rather historicals be their own thing and for Mantic to focus on fleshing out Kings of War on it's own. Historical armies exist if you want them to at this point because you can use pretty much anything to represent your units. We don't need to try to wedge historicals into a fantasy world that isn't predominantly human.

By all means release the book because it might net you some sales and the game system is solid. But don't wedge it into Kings of War proper.

Are the core rules changing (aside from removing things like magic and flyers)? If not, then I don't see why the lists would develop on a different baseline than the core armies.

But the one piece of factual info everyone has is that there's no factual info

right?

Obviously I don't expect Saxons and Plantagenets to be inserted into Mantic's fantasy world. I'd just like to see them balanced against each other using the same overall core points, as Decker_cky has suggested. A "Close enough" kind of pretty compatible without much work as Polonius states is obviously the best that we can likely hope for, which is all I'm asking.

Seems more like just a way of expanding Kingdoms of Men into a variety of different flavoured subsets?

Yes and no. Yes if you approach it from a purely "fantasy gamer" perspective. But really, it's a way of expanding the Kings of War ruleset into the historical realm to broaden it's appeal, as your average Historical gamer isn't likely to buy the KoW fantasy rulebook and try to make up their own lists for their forces, but are often more likely to pick up an interesting and/or well-reviewed ruleset.

Especially so as historical gamers are more likely then the average fantasy gamer to have their minis from a variety of manufacturers and own/play several different rulesets anyway.

 scarletsquig wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Some of their stuff is getting better, thankfully. The Lizardmans from the KoW KS are quite nice. Nice enough ti prompt me to buy two of the GW "Start Collecting: Seraphon" boxes. Add those to the Mantic Lizards and the stuff I already had, and now I've got a Lizardmans army for KoW. Only some of it is Mantic models, but it's an improvement on many of their other lines.

The problem is that they're not consistent, and I'm now too cautious to lay money down on anything that's not a HIPS render. Trusting them on anything resin just went out the window with the recent WP stuff, and their new boardgame plastic isn't something I can trust after my DS experience. Even if people who haven't actually fixed their warped models yet "don't anticipate any problems".

So.. yeah. HIPS or GTFO.

The new KoW kits are fantastic, really happy with the Abyssal army I'm building at the moment. Best models Mantic have released in a very long time and mark a return to the quality of the Undead miniatures line.

I have to agree that HIPS is king, both in terms of value and quality, which is why I've gone ahead with the Shieldwolf KS as a way of adding to the abyssal army (Orcs as abyssal warriors, Xena girls for mortals and Varagnur allies).

The more non-GW manufacturers the better, really. With the amount of army lists now available, KoW can take pretty much any fantasy mini from any manufacturer that you throw at it, and provides a lot of flexibility for making any fantasy army you want to make.

I am enjoying some arguments with my good lady, in regards to what we need to get for the army. (I want cavalry - she wants more Molochs and characters. Odds are that we will both get our ways....)

The Auld Grump - getting both increases flexibility, always good in KoW.

Does anyone know when the 2 goblin armies are going to be released? They are up for pre-order but now release date that I can find. As far as I can tell all the individual components are already out just not the combination box sets.

 Azazelx wrote:


Obviously I don't expect Saxons and Plantagenets to be inserted into Mantic's fantasy world. I'd just like to see them balanced against each other using the same overall core points, as Decker_cky has suggested. A "Close enough" kind of pretty compatible without much work as Polonius states is obviously the best that we can likely hope for, which is all I'm asking.

I can definitely imagine it being a similar sort of system. After all, Mantic have plugged a fair amount of work into KoW, playtesting and rule amendments, it would make sense for them to use something similar rather than a complete re-design. If they do this, it's a simple step for crossover.

And, there is a precedent for this in historical gaming (more common than you would think).

As it stood when the RC last saw them, the historicals are just army lists, no changes to the core rules.

Alessio spoke a bit on the historical lists on a podcast. CoundetchargeX 11: http://www.ohiohammer.com/counter-chargeccx/2016/1/24/cc-11-a-kings-destiny

Lists from different historical periods between Ancient times to War of the roses. Same core rules. Inclusion of famous generals as Special characters (Saladin, Alexander the great etc.)

Instead of magic items, skills can be bought to units, making them more elite. Presumably giving them one or few of the games basic special rules (Elite, Vicious, Headstrong etc.)

I feel that it might be difficult to have meaningful variation between all these armies. But that's normal in historical games I suppose and it's more about theming the army yourself through your choices of units. And I guess the supplement is mostly about enticing historical gamers to try out the KoW ruleset with their existing armies, and perhaps lure some into doing a fantasy army as well later.

AdamBridger wrote:
Does anyone know when the 2 goblin armies are going to be released? They are up for pre-order but now release date that I can find. As far as I can tell all the individual components are already out just not the combination box sets.

I think they are shipping them now. Sometimes it takes a few days for the Mantic web site to catch up with the release dates and they are shown as Pre-order for a week or two after release.

This comes from the release schedule sent to retailers.

Jan 25th MGKWG100 KOW Goblin Starter Force $84.99 20 Spitters, 20 Rabble, 20 Sharpsticks, 10 Fleabag Riders and Goblin Mincer
Jan 25th MGKWG105 KOW Goblin Mega Force $174.99 40 Spitters, 40 Rabble, 40 Sharpsticks, 20 Fleabag Riders, 6 Trolls, 2 Goblin Mincers and 3 Goblin Heroes

Personally I'm looking forward to the KoW releases on Mar 21st - that could be an expensive month for me.

Not sure if this is a news or rumor, per se, but does anyone have any experience with http://www.tabletopnow.com/ ? They seem to be a 3rd party etailer. I ask if anyone has dealt with them as they have some solid prices for kings of war but seem fairly new and/or untested.

Whats coming out in march again?

Any word on retail Nature Mega Starter?


...what does it contain again?

I have finally, after months of back and forth, received some stuff from the Dungeon Saga Kickstarter. And it's all the wrong stuff...

Can someone tell me if the Collector's Edition hardback was actually made? I've been sent a copy of the Adventurer's companion instead, and I'm not sure if that's what the CE book 'ended up' as.

Oh, and STILL no Kings of War product.

Yeah, the "Collectors edition" was turned into a hardback AC. So that *is* correct... or as correct as everyone elses, anyway.

I also haven't received any KoW2 stuff. I submitted a ticket and haven't had any response other than the automatic receipt of ticket message.

It is shocking that people are still waiting for KOW2 stuff to arrive, how long ago was "fulfillment"? That is why I do not back Mantic Kickstarters any more. Just a shame that there have been a number of apologetic blog posts but still nothing is done.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I also haven't received any KoW2 stuff. I submitted a ticket and haven't had any response other than the automatic receipt of ticket message.

I got my main pledge, but I've been told twice now that the missing movement trays were shipped out. I don't know if they're simply lying at this point, but I've:
1) submitted a ticket
2) emailed back and forth with Rich Armstrong multiple times
3) raised the issue on their Facebook page, and was assured that they would look into it.

I'm tempted to simply buy them retail somewhere, because I need them!

Part of the issue seems to be they keep selling out of stuff that really should be reserved for replacing broken/missing items

and the other part is in the long wait for more to arrive they don't seem to be able to keep track of who they owe what to

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Part of the issue seems to be they keep selling out of stuff that really should be reserved for replacing broken/missing items

and the other part is in the long wait for more to arrive they don't seem to be able to keep track of who they owe what to

From a purely amoral standpoint, it actually makes sense to keep things in stock, and generate sales/buzz. Sure, it means that kickstarter backers wait even longer, but they already have our money, and we're reliable customers already.

 Polonius wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I also haven't received any KoW2 stuff. I submitted a ticket and haven't had any response other than the automatic receipt of ticket message.

I got my main pledge, but I've been told twice now that the missing movement trays were shipped out. ...//...
I'm tempted to simply buy them retail somewhere, because I need them!

You can buy custom sizes at http://war-bases.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=68_96 for a suspiciously similar price (or cheaper). I haven't seen both versions together so for all I know, it might even be the same product. I assume that Mantic order those trays in bulk rather than keep their own laser cutter just for moving trays.

If you ever get those missing trays, well you can never have too many moving trays. There's always a new army waiting to be built.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I also haven't received any KoW2 stuff. I submitted a ticket and haven't had any response other than the automatic receipt of ticket message.

I'm still waiting on my initial pledge as well. Though I've been...compensated. Can't say more.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I also haven't received any KoW2 stuff. I submitted a ticket and haven't had any response other than the automatic receipt of ticket message.

I'm still waiting on my initial pledge as well. Though I've been...compensated. Can't say more.

How did you manage that? Did you sue Kevin Siembieda?

He...might be referring to the fact that at the height of Mantic mispacking, the errors cut both ways and some people got a fair amount of extra product!

On the customer service front, I was missing 10 Gargoyles from my Abyssal starter. I placed the missing pieces form in mid January, and they arrived on Thursday/Friday this week. Pretty speedy turnaround compared to history, and didn't require any poking or prodding!

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
On the customer service front, I was missing 10 Gargoyles from my Abyssal starter. I placed the missing pieces form in mid January, and they arrived on Thursday/Friday this week. Pretty speedy turnaround compared to history, and didn't require any poking or prodding!

You're also a retail customer.

 Polonius wrote:
You're also a retail customer.

If true that is very telling, and I already had a bad impression of Mantic's delivery of their KS projects (all hype, followed by far too much chaos and mismanagement).