For all you CRASSUS fans, just spotted this on Heresy30k:
I just got told by an attendee who spoke with Alan that "Arkhadine" is a misnomer and "Zhao-Arkkad" is the actual, proper name of the Thousand Sons-affiliated mechanicum. Alan also confirmed that it's the same Zhao-Arkkad we know of, meaning they're the owners of the Praetor STC and eventually rejoin the Imperium.
This is very interesting...
Also:
Russ' wolves are underway though no one was willing to say who was working on them except it isn't Sam who is currently working on Magnus. Lots of discussion about just how to make him fit the fluff but not be overloaded with detail. No decision on whether his eye will be a scar or w void or other. Sam did say he would like to incorporate the base more into the model with Magnus more than the other Primarchs are - but that's a hope rather than a certainty.
Correlates with what I overheard: some bods were chatting away that Magnus is most probably next. A few people asked about Dorn and he doesn't (yet) even feature in any schedule (the more people ask for him, the more expectation he has, the further down he is shunted!)
I'm convinced they are waiting till Terra to do Dorn as his rules suck with that chainsword.
I went yesterday, managed to pick up a Mastodon, they had around 18 of them, I wasn't close enough to the front to count exactly. Most if not all had sold by the end of the day.
The kit doesn't look too hard to build, but it'll be a while before mine is finished as my friend is building and painting mine for me.
Yesterday felt a bit lack luster other than the specialist games section. No seminars, not much new FW 30k stuff to show off other than some of the older stuff is now finally painted so it must be getting close to being released.
That Mastodon's ease of build will rest solely on the quality of the casting. It's basically a giant Spartan in terms of the basic assembly, and while I believe it's been redone now, mine was based on the old mould and ultimately I had to boil it to get it to line up right...
The early casts are always better quality for a number of reasons, and I usually buy at a launch event meaning nearly all my FW is an early cast, so I'm probably not the best person to judge. However it looks good to me, the main parts line up fine.
Yodhrin wrote: That said, they're not going to have to worry about volume all that much if they're asking what, £300-ish+shipping(assuming "price between plastic knight and Cerastus" is roughly right, say £140ish for a Warlord, plus £60-ishx2 for the Reavers, then £30-ish for a unit of three Warhounds) for your average force for one player, for an all-resin Specialist Game, and then another FW-hardback-price book on top adds another £70+shipping.
Hopefully that 140£ is way off...
Hard to make good epic battle with multiple titans with THAT pricing. Sigh. Remember times when idea of multiple warlords in epic wasn't once in a blue moon? With that pricing who can afford that sight...
Used to own like 15 warlords myself before...
That's more Titans than you need to play this. The main version of play is a campaign mode where every player starts with only one warlord, earning battle honors to control more. In general the "average game" appears to be intended to be 3 warlords worth of models controlled by each player; where a number of lesser Titans and knight are alternatives. They're selling this to the same group who can afford to buy Knights from FW and play all knight forces.
Unless I'm misremembering, from what's been said the starter set is terrain and the rulebook... We'll have to see how much terrain and how much book Specialist Games will give us.
Yodhrin wrote: That said, they're not going to have to worry about volume all that much if they're asking what, £300-ish+shipping(assuming "price between plastic knight and Cerastus" is roughly right, say £140ish for a Warlord, plus £60-ishx2 for the Reavers, then £30-ish for a unit of three Warhounds) for your average force for one player, for an all-resin Specialist Game, and then another FW-hardback-price book on top adds another £70+shipping.
Hopefully that 140£ is way off...
Hard to make good epic battle with multiple titans with THAT pricing. Sigh. Remember times when idea of multiple warlords in epic wasn't once in a blue moon? With that pricing who can afford that sight...
Used to own like 15 warlords myself before...
That's more Titans than you need to play this. The main version of play is a campaign mode where every player starts with only one warlord, earning battle honors to control more. In general the "average game" appears to be intended to be 3 warlords worth of models controlled by each player; where a number of lesser Titans and knight are alternatives. They're selling this to the same group who can afford to buy Knights from FW and play all knight forces.
Unless I'm misremembering, from what's been said the starter set is terrain and the rulebook... We'll have to see how much terrain and how much book Specialist Games will give us.
If true I would rather just see rules to use the FW knights in renagade tbh
Charax wrote: A new class of titan between Warlord and Reaver sounds good, not sure where it would come power-wise as there's a fairly linear progression in stats between the titans
I’ve tried to summarize the cards from original Adeptus Titanicus box and White Dwarf #109. To me it looks like the current 28mm Warlord is a Death Bringer class and the Reaver is a Hun. I think a Nemesis Warlord would have more armor to give it the slow and purposes look.
Go with a different Knight house/Legion/Chapter/Craftworld/Sept ect. Once your about half way done the stuff you were originally waiting for usually gets released
zedmeister wrote: In terms of the rules, he did mention that they'd take on and adapt rules from previous editions only if they made sense and added to the tactical experience. They wouldn't add them in for the sake of it. He also mentioned that they're not afraid of a bit of complexity if, again, it made sense.
Finally, I've just recalled that they're like to sell hulls without weapons and sell the weapons separately.
Personally, I think a fully equipped Warlord will be about the same as a fully equipped Leviathan Dreadnought.
I don't see how they could sell it at that price, considering a properly-scaled Warlord, even the new FW "compact" version, will have to be half-again as tall and almost double the mass of a Leviathan. If a Reaver is going to be roughly equivalent to a Contemptor those are going to be somewhere between £50 and £65 with weapons, so charging £10 more for a model almost twice the size would make all the smaller chassis look like terrible relative value for money. Plus it would mean, assuming there's actually some vague correlation between their costs and the price they end up charging us, that FW would be taking a big hit on their profit margin for the big centerpiece Warlord model, which is the exact opposite of the present pricing strategy at GW and FW where big models are seen as the large-margin moneymakers.
At the very least, a Dreadknight-to-Knight-sized model all in resin is going to have to cost more than the plastic-resin hybrid kits like the Chaos Knight or the Magaera/Strix, so >£115.
Correlates with what I overheard: some bods were chatting away that Magnus is most probably next. A few people asked about Dorn and he doesn't (yet) even feature in any schedule (the more people ask for him, the more expectation he has, the further down he is shunted!)
Hmm, I hope that doesn't mean he'll look daft if you stick with the "gaming" base rather than the display base.
Yodhrin wrote: That said, they're not going to have to worry about volume all that much if they're asking what, £300-ish+shipping(assuming "price between plastic knight and Cerastus" is roughly right, say £140ish for a Warlord, plus £60-ishx2 for the Reavers, then £30-ish for a unit of three Warhounds) for your average force for one player, for an all-resin Specialist Game, and then another FW-hardback-price book on top adds another £70+shipping.
Hopefully that 140£ is way off...
Hard to make good epic battle with multiple titans with THAT pricing. Sigh. Remember times when idea of multiple warlords in epic wasn't once in a blue moon? With that pricing who can afford that sight...
Used to own like 15 warlords myself before...
That's more Titans than you need to play this. The main version of play is a campaign mode where every player starts with only one warlord, earning battle honors to control more. In general the "average game" appears to be intended to be 3 warlords worth of models controlled by each player; where a number of lesser Titans and knight are alternatives. They're selling this to the same group who can afford to buy Knights from FW and play all knight forces.
I don't buy this whole "you can play with one Warlord/a 500pt army" etc thing, doesn't wash. Mordheim was a campaign game too and sure, technically I could play Mordheim with three models, but practically speaking you needed a warband that goes all the way up to the maximum for that 'band, so, 12-20, and ideally you also wanted to have a selection of Hired Swords as well as enough models to fill out all the individual options in your chosen 'band as well for variety from campaign-to-campaign, so more like 30-40. This will be similar - it will be technically possible to play with 1 Warlord, but nobody will past the first game or two of a campaign, so realistically you'll need 3 or 4 Warlord Equivalent Units to go all the way to the end, and if you don't want to bore yourself witless after the third or fourth campaign you'll need more like 8 or 10 WEUs to give you multiple different combinations.
So yeah, as I said, you're right, they're aiming this at the "Resin Whales" segment, which sucks for the rest of us.
Yodhrin wrote: I don't buy this whole "you can play with one Warlord/a 500pt army" etc thing, doesn't wash. Mordheim was a campaign game too and sure, technically I could play Mordheim with three models, but practically speaking you needed a warband that goes all the way up to the maximum for that 'band, so, 12-20, and ideally you also wanted to have a selection of Hired Swords as well as enough models to fill out all the individual options in your chosen 'band as well for variety from campaign-to-campaign, so more like 30-40. This will be similar - it will be technically possible to play with 1 Warlord, but nobody will past the first game or two of a campaign, so realistically you'll need 3 or 4 Warlord Equivalent Units to go all the way to the end, and if you don't want to bore yourself witless after the third or fourth campaign you'll need more like 8 or 10 WEUs to give you multiple different combinations.
So yeah, as I said, you're right, they're aiming this at the "Resin Whales" segment, which sucks for the rest of us.
I think the rumor is that the chassis and weapons will be sold separately like the dreadnoughts. The Warhound, reaver, and carapace mounts on the warlord are pretty trivial to magnetize, with only the warlord arms being a bit of a pain (due to their size and weight, so it should be easy to magnetize the epic scale ones.
I'm curious if they plan to design the new models (not counting the warlord which is already in CAD at 28mm scale) in 28mm scale detail then scale them down for epic models, or design them in 8mm and if they are popular enough, scale them up and add detail for a 28mm release?
Related to the scaling thing, will epic models getting weapon options finally mean the Reaver will get the rest of it's carapace mount guns finally? And how will head options be handled?
On pricing, I can easily see the Reaver titan being Contemptor sized and price for the body and weapons. For the Warlord, size and price would probably be best compared to the ork mega/meka dread, so about £45 for the body and £15 to £20 for weapons
Yodhrin wrote: I don't buy this whole "you can play with one Warlord/a 500pt army" etc thing, doesn't wash. Mordheim was a campaign game too and sure, technically I could play Mordheim with three models, but practically speaking you needed a warband that goes all the way up to the maximum for that 'band, so, 12-20, and ideally you also wanted to have a selection of Hired Swords as well as enough models to fill out all the individual options in your chosen 'band as well for variety from campaign-to-campaign, so more like 30-40. This will be similar - it will be technically possible to play with 1 Warlord, but nobody will past the first game or two of a campaign, so realistically you'll need 3 or 4 Warlord Equivalent Units to go all the way to the end, and if you don't want to bore yourself witless after the third or fourth campaign you'll need more like 8 or 10 WEUs to give you multiple different combinations.
So yeah, as I said, you're right, they're aiming this at the "Resin Whales" segment, which sucks for the rest of us.
I think the rumor is that the chassis and weapons will be sold separately like the dreadnoughts. The Warhound, reaver, and carapace mounts on the warlord are pretty trivial to magnetize, with only the warlord arms being a bit of a pain (due to their size and weight, so it should be easy to magnetize the epic scale ones.
Yes, but you're still going to need the WEUs for variety in composition - 3 Warlords, 1 Warlord + 3 Reavers, 1 Warlord + 2 Reavers + 3 Warhounds etc.
On pricing, I can easily see the Reaver titan being Contemptor sized and price for the body and weapons. For the Warlord, size and price would probably be best compared to the ork mega/meka dread, so about £45 for the body and £15 to £20 for weapons
Again though, if we're expecting a Contemptor-sized and roughly Contemptor-priced Reaver, how can a model that should be almost twice the size and much bigger mass only cost £10 or so more?
As far as AT goes, I'm just disappointed that it's going to be Heresy only, I'm far more interested in running Phantoms, Revenants, Cobras and Scorpions than Imperial units.
Yodhrin wrote: Again though, if we're expecting a Contemptor-sized and roughly Contemptor-priced Reaver, how can a model that should be almost twice the size and much bigger mass only cost £10 or so more?
For one, a lot of the added mass is an illusion, with much of the upper carapace of the warlord being armor plates on a framework rather than solid structures.
A lot of the price of a resin model is in the number of parts/ cast complexity, rather than the amount of resin used (look at those vent blocks on big kits- it adds up to several pounds of excess for 28mm titans) With the decrease to 8mm scale, some minor parts can be deleted, and the warlord is not many more parts than the reaver (especially when you consider the torso is a hollow box). A major point of note is the feet of the reaver vs the warlord- the Reaver has far more complex toes than the warlord, which will need to be streamlined for the epic scale one, while the warlord is simple and uses a lot of the same parts multiple times, vs unique ones.
Imateria wrote: As far as AT goes, I'm just disappointed that it's going to be Heresy only, I'm far more interested in running Phantoms, Revenants, Cobras and Scorpions than Imperial units.
Wasn't the original information that the initial release will focus on the Heresy, with later add-ons / expansions?
Imateria wrote: As far as AT goes, I'm just disappointed that it's going to be Heresy only, I'm far more interested in running Phantoms, Revenants, Cobras and Scorpions than Imperial units.
I believe that they've already said that IF this is a success (Ha!), then they will expand into other eras and other races...
Imateria wrote: As far as AT goes, I'm just disappointed that it's going to be Heresy only, I'm far more interested in running Phantoms, Revenants, Cobras and Scorpions than Imperial units.
I believe that they've already said that IF this is a success (Ha!), then they will expand into other eras and other races...
I wouldn't believe the Specialist Games guys would miss the opportunity to open up other ( xenos etc) lines. I'm not surprised it's not all available at once though. Adeptus Titanicus and then later Space Marine, are steeped in the Horus Heresy and even back in those days, Eldar, Orks etc followed on in good time.
From where I'm sitting, returning to specialist games is something of an experiment and directly follows on from the change in management at senior ranks, so someone upstairs has given it the nod on a trial basis, so the specialist games folks are going to go for the biggest sellers right off the bat, and that means imperium and keeping the cost down means both sides using the same molds in the starter. If that sells well enough, then we'll see expansions and added forces.
Regardless of the price, AT will be my first Warhammer related acquirement in what, 6 years?
Super excited for the book alone! Finally we will see some updated badass titan art. Knowing FW, the book alone will be worth for all the art and the fluff. The game rules are just a bonus for me.
SickSix wrote: Oh, will AT mean we finally get our Lucius pattern Warlord back?!
I would find a way to buy one of those! Not that Mars pattern ugly duckling.
Ha!
MARS PATTERN IS BEST PATTERN!
I really don't like the blockhead versions - and I'd bet (hope?) that since FW is starting with HH, we'll get the proper, aesthetically pleasing and clearly superior Mars Patterns to begin with.
But, since I want everyone to be happy, I hope they eventually get to producing...that other variant too!
Also isn't the 28mm Mars Warlord actually the smallest pattern of Warlord? I could have sworn FW said that when it was being released. I think the old Epic Lucius pattern would be much bigger if scaled to 28 mm.
SickSix wrote: Oh, will AT mean we finally get our Lucius pattern Warlord back?!
I would find a way to buy one of those! Not that Mars pattern ugly duckling.
Ha!
MARS PATTERN IS BEST PATTERN!
I really don't like the blockhead versions - and I'd bet (hope?) that since FW is starting with HH, we'll get the proper, aesthetically pleasing and clearly superior Mars Patterns to begin with.
But, since I want everyone to be happy, I hope they eventually get to producing...that other variant too!
Yodhrin wrote: Again though, if we're expecting a Contemptor-sized and roughly Contemptor-priced Reaver, how can a model that should be almost twice the size and much bigger mass only cost £10 or so more?
For one, a lot of the added mass is an illusion, with much of the upper carapace of the warlord being armor plates on a framework rather than solid structures.
A lot of the price of a resin model is in the number of parts/ cast complexity, rather than the amount of resin used (look at those vent blocks on big kits- it adds up to several pounds of excess for 28mm titans) With the decrease to 8mm scale, some minor parts can be deleted, and the warlord is not many more parts than the reaver (especially when you consider the torso is a hollow box). A major point of note is the feet of the reaver vs the warlord- the Reaver has far more complex toes than the warlord, which will need to be streamlined for the epic scale one, while the warlord is simple and uses a lot of the same parts multiple times, vs unique ones.
I don't see the relevance man, if the Reaver is going to be roughly the same size as the Contemptor, it will be a similarly complex miniature with a similar price. Ergo, the Warlord will be proportionately more, regardless of how much either has to be simplified from the 28mm designs.
SickSix wrote: Oh, will AT mean we finally get our Lucius pattern Warlord back?!
I would find a way to buy one of those! Not that Mars pattern ugly duckling.
Ha!
MARS PATTERN IS BEST PATTERN!
I really don't like the blockhead versions - and I'd bet (hope?) that since FW is starting with HH, we'll get the proper, aesthetically pleasing and clearly superior Mars Patterns to begin with.
But, since I want everyone to be happy, I hope they eventually get to producing...that other variant too!
No love for the metallicus pattern?
OK, I really like that Warlord Pattern - more than the soon to be released after it Battletech Pattern!
I'm excited for the AT game, but have questions for people at the Forgeworld Open Day:
Does Forgeworld plan to add cheap-ish tanks and knights, so players can build up an armored force? Or, is the game considered to be primarily about Titans? If Tanks, did they say anything about the new tanks for 30k, Fellblade, fast attack tank, etc.?
Did Forgeworld say anything about a mass Epic 40k style game for 30k battles, using the models created for AT?
I do think that the prices will be a problem, a mass battle game with a high price point may not be anywhere near as popular as Forgeworld hopes. Anyway, I'm really looking forward to this.
zedmeister wrote: For all you CRASSUS fans, just spotted this on Heresy30k:
I just got told by an attendee who spoke with Alan that "Arkhadine" is a misnomer and "Zhao-Arkkad" is the actual, proper name of the Thousand Sons-affiliated mechanicum. Alan also confirmed that it's the same Zhao-Arkkad we know of, meaning they're the owners of the Praetor STC and eventually rejoin the Imperium.
This is very interesting...
I wrote that
I started working on the paint scheme but it's a bit of a tricky one.
Imateria wrote: As far as AT goes, I'm just disappointed that it's going to be Heresy only, I'm far more interested in running Phantoms, Revenants, Cobras and Scorpions than Imperial units.
I believe that they've already said that IF this is a success (Ha!), then they will expand into other eras and other races...
Well aware of that, but the big question mark in there is IF.
I don't think there's any doubt that this will be a success and we'll get all the Other Stuff in there eventually.
Really? If the army costs are about 500, assuming a Warlord and Warlord equivalent are about 125, I can't see the game becoming so much of a success that Forgeworld expands it. That is still pretty expensive for an unproven game system from a company known to drop the games it creates.
If the Warlord is about the size of a Leviathan Dreadnought, which costs 72 GBP, then that comes to around 100 USD per Warlord. (this was reported earlier from the open house)
Assume that dollar cost per gameplay point is constant and that a player requires 4 Warlord equivalents to field a full campaign force, and you reach 400 USD, before the terrain and rules.
Now, it could be the case that a resin model the size of a dreadnought costs significantly less than a dreadnought, but that is a pretty bold assumption.
Yaraton wrote: So not much of the new things were shown. I am really disappointed, I was expecting way more. And I am still waiting on my Alpharius /Omegon combo.
It was a FW Open Day, not a HH Weekender or similar.
I don't think there's any doubt that this will be a success and we'll get all the Other Stuff in there eventually.
Really? I have no doubt it will make FW a profit, but if the pricing is what I think it will be I have strong doubts it will be big enough to generate substantial further investment in the line. Aeronautica Imperialis was a fantastic game with lovely models, but it was expensive enough that only a subset of a niche audience bought in and it flopped, hard. AT won't flop of course; the starting niche is bigger, it has nostalgia working for it, and it will probably be better promoted thanks to the ongoing Heresy series, but I don't see how anyone can be so utterly sure it's going to be an unstoppable roaring success that will inevitably see expansions and plenty of new factions - I don't know many folk who would be willing to drop £300-ish for a standard buy-in(not including rules) on a niche specialist game when that cash could be buying stuff for games they know for a fact they'll be able to play every week.
EDIT: OK, and lets squish that one right away: the main HH line is expensive, yes. It's also entirely compatible with 40K - if you collect Space Marines you don't have to choose between 40K Marines and 30K Marines in any sense other than which aesthetic you prefer, the models are almost completely interchangable. The rules are also a branch of 40K rules and so don't have any effort-barrier. AT will be a new(to most) system with models that can be used for AT, they two are not equivalent from the logical position of someone with a limited hobby budget seeking to maximise value for money.
Of course, the only way we'll know its a success is if it's still around, and new stuff keeps showing up, so...it may take a while before someone can claim bragging rights!
But yeah, I think it will do quite well.
It is pretty much the only thing GW/FW that I plan on purchasing for the foreseeable future.
Yodhrin wrote: Again though, if we're expecting a Contemptor-sized and roughly Contemptor-priced Reaver, how can a model that should be almost twice the size and much bigger mass only cost £10 or so more?
For one, a lot of the added mass is an illusion, with much of the upper carapace of the warlord being armor plates on a framework rather than solid structures.
A lot of the price of a resin model is in the number of parts/ cast complexity, rather than the amount of resin used (look at those vent blocks on big kits- it adds up to several pounds of excess for 28mm titans) With the decrease to 8mm scale, some minor parts can be deleted, and the warlord is not many more parts than the reaver (especially when you consider the torso is a hollow box). A major point of note is the feet of the reaver vs the warlord- the Reaver has far more complex toes than the warlord, which will need to be streamlined for the epic scale one, while the warlord is simple and uses a lot of the same parts multiple times, vs unique ones.
I don't see the relevance man, if the Reaver is going to be roughly the same size as the Contemptor, it will be a similarly complex miniature with a similar price. Ergo, the Warlord will be proportionately more, regardless of how much either has to be simplified from the 28mm designs.
I think FW will tend to initially sell these on the lower end of what similarly sized 40k models cost... but these models are still gonna be on a level of complexity with enough parts and volume that they're gonna cost.
With resin models there are two main factors that add to the cost, number of parts and volume of resin determine by how the model is eventually molded. These titans in the 8mm scale are similar in size to 40k scale models. A 8mm Reaver will likely cost the same as a Contemptor because even if they want to make the Reaver hollow in places it means more parts which means more molds and more work to cast.
What will be interesting to see is if they will do Titan Legion specific upgrade bits or if like they did with the Contemptors do complete faction specific versions.
DrRansom wrote:I'm excited for the AT game, but have questions for people at the Forgeworld Open Day:
Does Forgeworld plan to add cheap-ish tanks and knights, so players can build up an armored force? Or, is the game considered to be primarily about Titans? If Tanks, did they say anything about the new tanks for 30k, Fellblade, fast attack tank, etc.?
Did Forgeworld say anything about a mass Epic 40k style game for 30k battles, using the models created for AT?
I do think that the prices will be a problem, a mass battle game with a high price point may not be anywhere near as popular as Forgeworld hopes. Anyway, I'm really looking forward to this.
AT is a 30k era game focused completely on Titans and Knights. They plan on expanding into infantry and tanks and then eventually expanding into 40k to cover xenos, but only if the game continues to be successful enough for long enough.
aka_mythos - thanks for the response. I hope that it is successful enough to expand into infantry and tanks, to give a large-scale combined arms 30k game.
Yodhrin wrote: Aeronautica Imperialis was a fantastic game with lovely models, but it was expensive enough that only a subset of a niche audience bought in and it flopped, hard.
I don't think this is true at all. AI was actually pretty reasonably priced. For example, a pack of two Thunderbolts was only £12.00, or about $20. Contrast that with X-Wing ships at $15 each for models that are roughly the same scale. X-Wing is stupidly popular and gets tons of praise for how affordable it is, which doesn't fit at all with calling AI expensive.
The real problem with AI is that hardly anyone even knew it existed. GW did nothing at all to market it so unless you went poking around that corner of the FW website you'd never hear about it. And if you did try to get into it you'd have the full work of building a community, GW wasn't going to help you at all. It doesn't matter how affordable a game is if you don't have anyone to play it with. X-Wing could easily have suffered the same fate if it hadn't hit the necessary critical mass to keep drawing in new players, and we'd all be talking about how great it was when there were those old Star Wars ships selling for cheap prices and isn't it sad that nobody bothered to play.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: FW used to sell 2x Warhounds at 6mm scale for £19, is they raise that to say £25 for 8mm scale that wouldn't be too bad.
Its important to consider a number of things. The Titans made in previous editions were not properly scaled; they were scaled to what was convenient to produce. For instance my epic Reaver titan measures ~1-3/4" at 6mm scale it should be ~3" tall and in 8mm it should be ~4" tall. The growth in size is volumetric... so a single 8mm titan has more than double the volume of the epic Titan models.
Given the size of the different titans in 8mm relative to different FW40k models I'd estimate the prices at £30 for a Warhound, £40 for a Reaver, £120 for a Warlord... and all that is probably without weapons.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: FW used to sell 2x Warhounds at 6mm scale for £19, is they raise that to say £25 for 8mm scale that wouldn't be too bad.
Its important to consider a number of things. The Titans made in previous editions were not properly scaled; they were scaled to what was convenient to produce. For instance my epic Reaver titan measures ~1-3/4" at 6mm scale it should be ~3" tall and in 8mm it should be ~4" tall. The growth in size is volumetric... so a single 8mm titan has more than double the volume of the epic Titan models.
Given the size of the different titans in 8mm relative to different FW40k models I'd estimate the prices at £30 for a Warhound, £40 for a Reaver, £120 for a Warlord... and all that is probably without weapons.
Those prices seem rather high, especially without weapons. Especially when you consider how they can simplify the models from the 28mm scale versions- Warhound and reaver will lack interiors, so the central torsos can probably be cast up as a single part.
Given the level of detail they're shooting for I'd guess the warhound's and similarly the reaver's torso are 3 pieces. The warhound is about dreadnought sized and the reaver in between a Contemptor and a Leviathan... those estimates are based on the prices for those models, but generally rounding down. Maybe they'll give us weapons, but their established practices so far say otherwise.
EDIT: OK, and lets squish that one right away: the main HH line is expensive, yes. It's also entirely compatible with 40K - if you collect Space Marines you don't have to choose between 40K Marines and 30K Marines in any sense other than which aesthetic you prefer, the models are almost completely interchangable. The rules are also a branch of 40K rules and so don't have any effort-barrier. AT will be a new(to most) system with models that can be used for AT, they two are not equivalent from the logical position of someone with a limited hobby budget seeking to maximise value for money.
So, it's expensive yet still popular.
Glad we agree.
AT has things in its favour and things against it. We will see how all those factor together and how successful it is. At the moment we have nothing but vague guesses at pricing and the other factors are unquantifiable.
aka_mythos wrote: Given the size of the different titans in 8mm relative to different FW40k models I'd estimate the prices at £30 for a Warhound, £40 for a Reaver, £120 for a Warlord... and all that is probably without weapons.
I'd say that was a good estimate. I was chatting with James Hewitt mainly and one of things he did say was that they'd like to sell the Chassis and weapons separately.
Also, here's something I posted on BattleBunnies - an expanded description of my collaring of James Hewitt:
It was James Hewitt I chatted to and he was willing to divulge quite a lot of information and was clearly excited on the topic (as was I!). I'm still recalling things as I managed to collar him for nearly 30 minutes! Allow me to expand a few points. Be advised that he was describing early playtest rules. He's only played it internally with 3 man team. He's currently frantically printing out paper models for an expanded playtest across GW. So bear that in mind:
Like previous Epic versions, it's currently an alternative activation system instead of UGOIGO
The plasma tracker
The plasma tracker was very interesting. Each Titan will have a certain amount of power they generate per turn. They then use the power to move, fire weapons, do damage control and repair voids. There's currently an overload mechanic whereby you can increase the power they generate to do additional actions. However, overtaxing the reactor carries risks, though he didn't expand on the risks.
Titan Datasheets
He described each Titan as having its own unit card with stats (move, turns etc.), plasma power tracker, damage track and weapon hard points. He seemed to be describing a hybrid of 1st Edition (weapon hard points, stats and refits) and 2nd Edition Titan datasheets (hit location and critical damage tables).
An expanded description of his playtest
He described a typical Warlord as having 4 inch movement and a single 90 degree turn. Warhounds having an 8 inch movement and could make two 90 degree turns. In his playtest, he described the final turn with only 1 Warlord facing off against 2 Warhounds, with everything else disabled or destroyed. One Warhound distracted him to the front, and took down the Warlords last remaining Voids. The Warlord then returned fire and blew it away. But, crucially, failed his reactor overload and was not able to take an additional turn to face the other, hidden, Warhound with his thicker frontal armour. This left his rear, and the vulnerable reactor housing, exposed and unshielded. On the Warhound’s turn, it moved out and fired on the rear of an unshielded Warlord and breached its reactor!
Machine Spirit Personalities
This is something that, as he described, was hinted at in the background but something that he'd like to explore within the game. I think ideas are still being developed, but he wanted to give Titan's their own personalities, for example the close-combat equipped Titan turning into a berserker. The idea being that you try to issue the Titan an order but the Machine Spirit, feeling more than a little rage as a result of doing far too much close combat and not having any rest, starts exerting its influencing on the Princeps! He mentioned that during campaigns, you'll want to rest Titans as they become mentally burnt out and start developing undesirable personalities.
Game types
He described the default game as Campaign games and used Necromunda as an example - you have a roster and for a game, you choose entries from your roster. Between games, you can apply for refits and your crews gain experience. Ejecting heads were mooted as an example of the Princeps and Moderatii being able to survive the destruction of their Titan. He described that, similar to Age of Sigmar, they're also planning to have an open play and competitive play option as well for those who just want to plop down some Titans and just have at it.
Background
He really wants to codify Titans. He's currently been scouring archives and has got a lot of material including Jes Goodwin’s ancient sketches.
The future
He got very excited when I mentioned Psi-Titans!
Imperator Titans would only appear if the game proves to be popular.
I asked about Banelord Titans and vehicles. Again, it's all about popularity.
However, he is writing the rules engine so that they are able to add in vehicles or infantry without requiring a whole new set of rules to be written. He described the jarring effect of Titans and Infantry needing two sets of rules in previous games and it's something that he definitely wants to avoid.
Any idea whether they will include things like Eldar Titans (they already make the models) or Ork stuff?
I hope that if they do include infantry and such that they still have a role to play and pose a threat if ignored.
How is the damage tracked? Is it just a hit point like system or is it like the old 2nd edition Epic with hit locations (and possible 1 hit kills if aimed at a weak spot)? A straight hit point system has the weakness of allowing the target to remain completely safe until the last hitpoint is taken off.
I don't agree for example with many of the current Warlord Titan rules. Don't agree with the rules for it being immune to haywire, or being hard to hit for monstrous and gargantuan creatures, particularly gargantuan creatures. The background repeatedly states how for example Tyranids tear apart Titans either through numbers or through their specialized creatures specifically designed for tearing apart vehicles and fortifications. Most haywire weapons would at best be knocking off a mere 1 HP at best, so it would still take numerous hits to accomplish anything, so I don't see vulnerability to haywire being too crippling.
Plus I find the idea of a character doing like Luke Skywalker in the Empire Strikes Back and landing a hit against a preoccupied Warlord appealing. I don't find the height of the Warlord much of a rationale considering we have people with jet packs, or superhuman agility. I could totally see a Solitaire parkouring up the leg of a Warlord to plant a haywire against a vulnerable piece of machinery for example.
The big problem I find is a Warlord (or any other superheavy or Titan) shouldn't be just an immovable and invulnerable block of HP all the way down to the last HP before suddenly blasting apart in a giant fireball. In the old Epic 2nd edition, Warlords were powerful but if someone tried to act like they were invincible and just marched them in front of massed enemy heavy weapons (vehicle and infantry, not just Titan weapons), the massed fire would ablate their shields and destroy them.
It seems a shame to sound a negative note when Forge World's writers and sculptors are so evidently enthusiastic about nu-Adeptus Titanicus, and when then rules (in concept at least) sound exciting, but on the information available, I don't see myself investing in another very expensive miniature wargame from GW.
The original Adeptus Titanicus/Space Marine games were marvellously cheap, and the simple (by modern standards) miniatures quick and easy to paint to tabletop (base coat, thin wash, light drybrush, add details in boltgun metal) standard. I have very little doubt these were the reasons AT was so popular than 40k in its' day. (Said day being the early years of the 1990s.) While I trust FW will produce an excellent product, I don't see it catching on beyond a small audience of superfans and nostalgic fortysomethings.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: FW used to sell 2x Warhounds at 6mm scale for £19, is they raise that to say £25 for 8mm scale that wouldn't be too bad.
Its important to consider a number of things. The Titans made in previous editions were not properly scaled; they were scaled to what was convenient to produce. For instance my epic Reaver titan measures ~1-3/4" at 6mm scale it should be ~3" tall and in 8mm it should be ~4" tall. The growth in size is volumetric... so a single 8mm titan has more than double the volume of the epic Titan models.
Were they FW Reavers? My FW Warhounds are 1.7" tall which isn't much shorter than it's supposed to be (I think they're supposed to be 14m full size, so 6mm = 1/285 = 1.9").
FW are usually pretty good with their scaling. GW's Epic stuff was pretty random, but the FW Epic stuff was pretty close when you compare it to what's written in the books.
While volume is a cubic relationship with length, I don't think price would increase as a cubic relationship, it's more of a difficulty of manufacture thing. Going from a 1.7" tall model to a 2.3" tall model isn't a big change, the resin pouring tabs are probably going to be the same size, number of components isn't going to change and the difficulty in making them isn't going to change much. As you get larger (like going from 6" model to a 8" model) you're pushing the boundaries of what is easy to manufacture and probably increasing the number of components so price starts going up at a faster rate.
Given the size of the different titans in 8mm relative to different FW40k models I'd estimate the prices at £30 for a Warhound, £40 for a Reaver, £120 for a Warlord... and all that is probably without weapons.
I wouldn't estimate 30 quid for a Warhound, that'd be over 3 times more than the 6mm models they used to have.
But I wouldn't be surprised either, model prices tend to be erratic and hard to predict.
The plasma tracker
The plasma tracker was very interesting. Each Titan will have a certain amount of power they generate per turn. They then use the power to move, fire weapons, do damage control and repair voids. There's currently an overload mechanic whereby you can increase the power they generate to do additional actions. However, overtaxing the reactor carries risks, though he didn't expand on the risks.
Titan Datasheets
He described each Titan as having its own unit card with stats (move, turns etc.), plasma power tracker, damage track and weapon hard points. He seemed to be describing a hybrid of 1st Edition (weapon hard points, stats and refits) and 2nd Edition Titan datasheets (hit location and critical damage tables).
Smells like BattleTech/Mechwarrior.
Background
He really wants to codify Titans. He's currently been scouring archives and has got a lot of material including Jes Goodwin’s ancient sketches.
Any news on the release of the new super knight? rules for it or price I only have two kidneys, but I must have it. Again any idea of the Acheron knight in mech armor? Is that a upgrade or in house conversion?
I keep hearing July but that's about it. With July close to being over and no sign of the new book I'm gonna say August at the earliest. That's probably wishful thinking.
EDIT: OK, and lets squish that one right away: the main HH line is expensive, yes. It's also entirely compatible with 40K - if you collect Space Marines you don't have to choose between 40K Marines and 30K Marines in any sense other than which aesthetic you prefer, the models are almost completely interchangable. The rules are also a branch of 40K rules and so don't have any effort-barrier. AT will be a new(to most) system with models that can be used for AT, they two are not equivalent from the logical position of someone with a limited hobby budget seeking to maximise value for money.
So, it's expensive yet still popular.
Glad we agree.
AT has things in its favour and things against it. We will see how all those factor together and how successful it is. At the moment we have nothing but vague guesses at pricing and the other factors are unquantifiable.
So it's expensive and yet popular for particular reasons, which do not apply to AT.
Glad we agree.
And since this is a rumour forum where we discuss rumours evidently speculation is going to be part of any discussion here, but characterising pretty fundamental "it will be a similar size to this thing, so will likely be a similar cost to same thing" logic as "vague guesses" doesn't really work, unless you're willing to sit there with a straight face and argue it's probable that FW would put out a Contemptor-sized model with Contemptor-sized weapons and charge us any significant amount less than a Contemptor to buy it.
Hey, if they do and AT is cheap as chips or even reasonably priced, nobody will be happier than me, but don't pretend either of those outcomes is even fractionally as likely as the speculated figures based on previous product pricing.
It'll of course be nice if it comes out for cheaper, but we have to reason like products will be priced similarly. I think what we'll see are models priced like existing models of the same size and that FW will go out of its way to do introductory bundles. Where those bundles can really soften the blow. Unlike many of the bundles that disappear every couple of months, AT being a relatively new game won't have as large a collection to draw from and mix up to make new bundles so whatever bundles do spring up will likely remain available more indefinitely or until the product line expands enough. With everyone just getting into AT when its released it's viability is more drastically going to depend on those bundles.
The introductory bundles could be critical for the game. If you could get two basic warbands (say 50% - 75% of desired points value) + rulebook for under 500 USD, then the game will have a great chance. That could give someone the ability to start two armies, one for himself and one to lend to others to play against.
I do like the promise of more infantry, tanks, aircraft in the future. Forgeworld has gone above and beyond in creating excellent 30k tank designs, but their price makes deploying them in a battle prohibitive. If Forgeworld expands AT, then I can see a mass battle with all the legion light / medium / superheavy tanks alongside mechanichus and titan legions.
EDIT: OK, and lets squish that one right away: the main HH line is expensive, yes. It's also entirely compatible with 40K - if you collect Space Marines you don't have to choose between 40K Marines and 30K Marines in any sense other than which aesthetic you prefer, the models are almost completely interchangable. The rules are also a branch of 40K rules and so don't have any effort-barrier. AT will be a new(to most) system with models that can be used for AT, they two are not equivalent from the logical position of someone with a limited hobby budget seeking to maximise value for money.
So, it's expensive yet still popular.
Glad we agree.
AT has things in its favour and things against it. We will see how all those factor together and how successful it is. At the moment we have nothing but vague guesses at pricing and the other factors are unquantifiable.
So it's expensive and yet popular for particular reasons, which do not apply to AT.
Glad we agree.
And since this is a rumour forum where we discuss rumours evidently speculation is going to be part of any discussion here, but characterising pretty fundamental "it will be a similar size to this thing, so will likely be a similar cost to same thing" logic as "vague guesses" doesn't really work, unless you're willing to sit there with a straight face and argue it's probable that FW would put out a Contemptor-sized model with Contemptor-sized weapons and charge us any significant amount less than a Contemptor to buy it.
Hey, if they do and AT is cheap as chips or even reasonably priced, nobody will be happier than me, but don't pretend either of those outcomes is even fractionally as likely as the speculated figures based on previous product pricing.
I don't expect it to be cheap at all. My point was simply that the pricing alone doesn't mean the game is DoA.
If they sell a quarter the number of Contemptors in Reavers then I think they'll count it as a runaway success.
I'm sure they understand that making it all resin is going to significantly reduce the number of units they'll get out the door.
The fact that they're making the AT models from the digital files for the 40k scale titans... relative to other games and projects there is a lot less effort required and less cost incurred... they won't need to sell nearly as many to be successful for it.
The downside to this approach is that any new Titans or Knight patterns they decide to make for AT will have longer lead times.
aka_mythos wrote: The downside to this approach is that any new Titans or Knight patterns they decide to make for AT will have longer lead times.
Not as bad as it could be, they're using 3D sculpting for Knights, Titans and the rest, so creation of a 28mm Scale Model and then reusing and re-scaling it to 8mm should spread the upfront development costs. Whether they'll pass those, admittedly small, savings on remains to be seen.
The Warlord Titan has already been resculpted for 8mm, and printed at that scale. According to Darren, they managed to cut the number of pieces to about 85-90, compared to about 300 for the 28mm Warlord.
Several pieces on the downscaled 28mm Warlord ended up being eggshell thin, but still printed alright, apparently....
Even so, he told me that very hard to tell which one was the 8mm one, and whivh one was the 3D printed downscaled 28mm one, until you picked them up. So apparently the resculpt is very nice...
Along this vein, he also told me, that they ARE using the existing 3D files for knights, tanks and everything, and scaling them down. They already have Knights, Fellblades, Leman Russ, Rhinos, even Marines. And at 8mm size, it is possible to identify the armor mark being worn by the marines.
Xanthos wrote: And at 8mm size, it is possible to identify the armor mark being worn by the marines.
I'd just like to point at that it is possible to have 6mm marines and be able to make them out. The various, ahem, "garage casters" that produce facsimiles of 6mm 30k pieces that you can find through a quick google search show that you can have quite detailed "marines" at 6mm.
The rational for 8mm was to be able to make them out when across the table, approximately 1.6m away (and, I suspect, to scupper the 6mm "garage casters").
From their perspective, it's probably good enough. They're setting up a new market, instead of re-entering one full of their own discontinued product, alternate manufacturers and re-casters.
Generalstoner wrote: As much as GW wants to hammer the recasters, if the game goes to 8mm so will the recasters. It is just a temporary win for them.
Not sure about that. At the moment, the "garage casters" (can't really call them recasters as they're not recasting anything) are supplying 6mm scale models of modern sculpts - and a quick google of "Epic Horus Heresy" should show you they're very good quality. Should GW start producing modern sculpts, although at 8mm scale, I can a bunch of people moving over to buy the official miniatures for various reasons - background and artwork rich books, a potentially larger playerbase and supporting the IP and company that produce it all.
However, I reckon there will be more than a few refuseniks who will hang onto 6mm because they like that scale or some will even have a "sod GW" attitude.
zedmeister wrote: At the moment, the "garage casters" (can't really call them recasters as they're not recasting anything) are supplying 6mm scale models of modern sculpts - and a quick google of "Epic Horus Heresy" should show you they're very good quality.
Ugh. I think there should be a forum rule that you aren't allowed to mention those models unless you're willing to tell everyone where to buy them. I'm tired of people taunting me with models I can't have!
I'm excited for the 8mm scale titans, but I think potential quality of 8mm infantry is where we will see the greatest contrast and see the tangible difference. When you look at the old epic infantry, they have the detail sharpness, detail quality, and are similarly sized to the old Rogue trader era 28mm marines' heads... rather blobby with a few details that are sharp "enough". Just comparing those heads to current heads is a noticeable difference in manufacturing quality, but the real limitation is the density of detail. The only way to get greater detail is to increase your sculptural real estate. By going to 8mm we move away from amorphous blobs to pieces more like Tyranid Rippers in size and quality. The little genestealer familiar from the genestealer cult is probably a reasonable facilimile of an 8mm genestealer brood lord.
While some scope of the game is lost with the scale change, it is indicative of GW's miniatures first credo. We will go from having models with little or no real detail to infantry models that do.
I suspect there's also a degree of 'safety' involved as with the best will in the world resin (which is what these are planned for at least initially) is more fragile than plastic and the extra strength provided by slightly increasing the size is probably going to be helpful
Automatically Appended Next Post: (for infantry that is)
EDIT: OK, and lets squish that one right away: the main HH line is expensive, yes. It's also entirely compatible with 40K - if you collect Space Marines you don't have to choose between 40K Marines and 30K Marines in any sense other than which aesthetic you prefer, the models are almost completely interchangable. The rules are also a branch of 40K rules and so don't have any effort-barrier. AT will be a new(to most) system with models that can be used for AT, they two are not equivalent from the logical position of someone with a limited hobby budget seeking to maximise value for money.
So, it's expensive yet still popular.
Glad we agree.
AT has things in its favour and things against it. We will see how all those factor together and how successful it is. At the moment we have nothing but vague guesses at pricing and the other factors are unquantifiable.
So it's expensive and yet popular for particular reasons, which do not apply to AT.
Glad we agree.
And since this is a rumour forum where we discuss rumours evidently speculation is going to be part of any discussion here, but characterising pretty fundamental "it will be a similar size to this thing, so will likely be a similar cost to same thing" logic as "vague guesses" doesn't really work, unless you're willing to sit there with a straight face and argue it's probable that FW would put out a Contemptor-sized model with Contemptor-sized weapons and charge us any significant amount less than a Contemptor to buy it.
Hey, if they do and AT is cheap as chips or even reasonably priced, nobody will be happier than me, but don't pretend either of those outcomes is even fractionally as likely as the speculated figures based on previous product pricing.
I don't expect it to be cheap at all. My point was simply that the pricing alone doesn't mean the game is DoA.
If they sell a quarter the number of Contemptors in Reavers then I think they'll count it as a runaway success.
I'm sure they understand that making it all resin is going to significantly reduce the number of units they'll get out the door.
Which would be a series of devastating counterpoints were I arguing the game was going to be "DoA", or that pricing is the only reason why, or that FW are unaware that expensive resin only will almost certainly result in lower volume.
The main flaw in your logic Yodhrin, is that you're assuming they adopt their normal pricing strategy in the entry stuff.
That they're making plastic terrain suggests anticipation of a certain volume of sales. If they're confident of that volume, or, indeed, to stimulate the demand for that volume, there's a very real chance they'll price some of the basic stuff at a much lower margin than their normal one. Plus I'm sure there's steps they could take to mitigate the cost that they may not usually, such as a design that is easier on the molds (not too many spikes bits etc.)
I expect the Titans will be highly modular, and there's plenty of opportunity to make alternate weapons systems, armour sets etc which, if the existing shoulder pad, tank door etc sets are anything to go by, will yield a substantial margin and help mitigate the lower profit on the core models. Plus other Titan marques can be priced at more of a premium.
I don't think the idea that it'll be really pricey is ridiculous, but assuming there's no possibility of at least the first steps being relatively affordable isn't right either.
I don't think the idea that it'll be really pricey is ridiculous, but assuming there's no possibility of at least the first steps being relatively affordable isn't right either.
I hope so!
Adeptus Titanicus is pretty much the only GW/FW game I'm looking forward to - and probably the only one I'm likely to buy too!
That they're making plastic terrain suggests anticipation of a certain volume of sales. If they're confident of that volume, or, indeed, to stimulate the demand for that volume, there's a very real chance they'll price some of the basic stuff at a much lower margin than their normal one. Plus I'm sure there's steps they could take to mitigate the cost that they may not usually, such as a design that is easier on the molds (not too many spikes bits etc.)
I agree, but at the same time I struggle to see GW/FW releasing any game that isn't supported with terrain.
I expect the Titans will be highly modular, and there's plenty of opportunity to make alternate weapons systems, armour sets etc which, if the existing shoulder pad, tank door etc sets are anything to go by, will yield a substantial margin and help mitigate the lower profit on the core models. Plus other Titan marques can be priced at more of a premium.
It will be interesting to see how FW will approach it. It seems clear they're at least aiming for separate weapons. With the warlord it wouldn't be surprising if certain alternate bits are sold separately but with the smaller titans I imagine it'll be more likely that FW does like they did with Dreadnoughts by doing distinctive variants and faction marked versions as entirely new models.
Also, FW could easily do different patterns of Titans- Mars and Lucius are both done for the 3 main titans, and there are artworks all over the place covering other patterns as well.
Which would be a series of devastating counterpoints were I arguing the game was going to be "DoA", or that pricing is the only reason why, or that FW are unaware that expensive resin only will almost certainly result in lower volume.
I don't think there's any doubt that this will be a success and we'll get all the Other Stuff in there eventually.
Really? If the army costs are about 500, assuming a Warlord and Warlord equivalent are about 125, I can't see the game becoming so much of a success that Forgeworld expands it. That is still pretty expensive for an unproven game system from a company known to drop the games it creates.
You were even responding while I posted with:
Really? I have no doubt it will make FW a profit, but if the pricing is what I think it will be I have strong doubts it will be big enough to generate substantial further investment in the line. Aeronautica Imperialis was a fantastic game with lovely models, but it was expensive enough that only a subset of a niche audience bought in and it flopped, hard.
So, yeah, the post was specifically addressing whether it was going to be a success (not DoA) based purely on price.
I'm just hoping we at least get to see a lot of the legion stuff released - when I asked at the open day they said the game was mostly about the Titans and the knights when I was fishing for how soon we'd see infantry. So I think they are pretty low priority.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Forgeworld are definitely moving to support magnets it seems:
The Tau Barracuda AX-5-2 is an advanced fighter suitable for both aerial combat and ground attack missions. It can be armed with a Heavy Burst Cannon, Barracuda Ion Cannon or Swiftstrike Railgun. It carries twin missile pods, multiple seeker missiles, a pair of Gun Drones mounted with either Long-barrelled Cyclic Ion Blasters or Long-barrelled Burst Cannon and a Decoy Drone. All of these options are included for you to choose from when sending your Barracuda into battle. The kit features multiple fitting points for magnets which you may choose to use to allow you to easily swap weapons systems, and also optional raised or lowered landing gear. The detailed construction guide includes guidance on suitable magnet sizes you may wish to use.
Next year Barricuda. Next year. :( This year is Ta'unars time. By next year I'll likely have some more dosh to grab some FW stuff. I might pick up a pair of these since they are so beautiful. As well as some XV9's.
Edit
FW website has new paint jobs for some of their stuff. The R'varna in particular look cool with its new paint job and is making me want one.
GOD DAMMIT FW. You had one job, and you couldn't even do it. The Barracuda is an air superiority fighter, it should NOT be worse at the job than whatever ugly brick the space marines get. Unless this is meant to be the ultimate "DFTS is stupid, don't use it" statement someone needs to get fired over this.
Welp feth that. It can wait. Units with roles before units that look cool.
That is the single biggest deal killer ever. Making it a strike flyer kills it. Kills it so badly. It might even be worse than the codex fliers now. Strike Fliers are the ones who have BS reduced to 1 against air targets right? The railgun is a 20 point upgrade? Jeez. Get the hell out of here. Should be a -20 point downgrade.
What is different about stormcloud attack vs DftS? Also it for nerfed. No reason to take the vehicle upgrade that boosts jink saves since this thing is capped at a 3+ now. Holy gak this thing sucks for its point cost.
Also, they mention that it is a "Strike-flyer", this type is not mentioned in the Death from the Skies book, unless it's another one of FW's famous typos.
BrookM wrote: Also, they mention that it is a "Strike-flyer", this type is not mentioned in the Death from the Skies book, unless it's another one of FW's famous typos.
Oh, huh, you're right. It is "attack", not "strike". Maybe if we can get them to fix it we can get it changed to "fighter" like it should be.
If it's not crippled with 1BS then this is a good fighter. Still a little frail but not bad. The auto targetting CIB's will make great additions to its firepower. I imagine a popular build will be all ion weapons. 11 STR 7 shots its scary stuff. Overall it could actually see it replacing Broadside teams. It's actually more cost effective. The big issue is the survivability, but it's more mobile. Then again it also only gets one good pass on most targets and it might not come in turn 2 when you need it.
Haven't seen a flyer grace a table in my life. Nor painted on any shelf of any 40k gamer I know. I don't play at our community because of logistics but I know flyers are nearly unheard of there. They use ITC and a lot of tough lists. Our community is easily 40+ strong with people having a few armies each. My cousin has a built and quarter painted Valkyrie or something that he never uses and thinks looks ugly as hell (he hates his paint job). Other than that singular exception I have never heard nor seen a 40k flyer. I don't even use the rules it's so rare let alone the ones in DftS supplement which has been laughed off.
Edit
In this case it is one of the best flyers around easily. Might even be in the top 5 now. However that classification could make or break this beautiful model so I will wait to hold judgement. My community doesn't use flyers, but if it can find a way to make someone use worse rules it will. Despite the book getting panned by the community they would still insist I use it of course as its only fair and "official". This attitude has creeped into the few players I had played with.
Gamgee wrote: Now I'm confused. Did they mess it up? In real life military a strike fighter is multi role fighter that primarily is meant to attack ground targets.
I would laugh if they then saddled it with the bomber classification.
Edit
Basically it's a multi role fighter with more points put into speed agility and ground attack.
A strike fighter aircraft is a multirole fighter. A strike aircraft is simply a ground attack aircraft mostly used for close air support.
AAAAND ballistic skill 1. GG. Wait I just read they can swap if they are zooming. Is zooming a rule a model has as part of its dataslate or something it does in the supplement?
Man Gamgee you really need to read the main rulebook more thoroughly . Zooming is something all Flyers can do. It's the 'You need to fire snapshts at me as I fly really fast" movement speed Flyers have.
And I called it (mostly, that document isn't IA but close enough ).
I didn't ever play fighters and I read the rules like once. Some stuff stuck around and some didn't. It's also been like a year since I've played any 40k at all or cracked a rule book on it.
No one I know has used flyers in my two years of play and they aren't used in my communities meta of 40+ players.
Edit
Okay it's an astounding fighter now that I know the rules.
Pretty much all of the Forge World Marine flyers are hot garbage now. The Fire Raptor can't shoot air to air, the Xiphon can't use its missile launcher on ground targets...
Edit:Strike Craft are pretty much pre-Dfts fliers. I don't see a downside to them.
Crazyterran wrote: Pretty much all of the Forge World Marine flyers are hot garbage now. The Fire Raptor can't shoot air to air, the Xiphon can't use its missile launcher on ground targets...
Edit:Strike Craft are pretty much pre-Dfts fliers. I don't see a downside to them.
The downside is that they can't make use of the Break Turn rules added in DftS so they don't have a chance of getting an extra rotation during their move.
Crazyterran wrote: Pretty much all of the Forge World Marine flyers are hot garbage now. The Fire Raptor can't shoot air to air, the Xiphon can't use its missile launcher on ground targets...
Edit:Strike Craft are pretty much pre-Dfts fliers. I don't see a downside to them.
The downside is that they can't make use of the Break Turn rules added in DftS so they don't have a chance of getting an extra rotation during their move.
Is that bad? I don't even know core rules flyers let alone DftS? Like is it so bad its going to stop this from seeing play?
Crazyterran wrote: Pretty much all of the Forge World Marine flyers are hot garbage now. The Fire Raptor can't shoot air to air, the Xiphon can't use its missile launcher on ground targets...
Edit:Strike Craft are pretty much pre-Dfts fliers. I don't see a downside to them.
The downside is that they can't make use of the Break Turn rules added in DftS so they don't have a chance of getting an extra rotation during their move.
So their downside is being pre-Dfts flyers? That totally balances out bring to choose between both Skyfire and ground targeting! :p and this is also a weakness shared by other units, as well.
And considering you have to test to break turn anyways...
aracersss wrote: pretty sure the xiphon can still do it ... fighters still shoot at ground units but at -1 BS
Nope, Interceptor Role fighters must always have the Skyfire rule on their weapon, regardless of target, so they snapshot vs ground targets. Unlike Fighters, who merely get -1bs.
@Gamgee: Not really. It just means they're a bit less maneuverable overall compared to Attack, Fighter and Bomber craft.
To do a Break Turn you have to pass an Agility Test (one of the new stats fliers were given in DftS), and they can be done at any point during your move. It's not a sure-fire thing and missing out on it isn't the end of the world. It might just make it a tad bit harder to keep other fliers in your firing ark if the opponent is lucky.
@Crazyterrain: Yeah it isn't much of a weakness... but it is one. Admittedly the other 2 flier types that share this weakness are either a) also improved in some way or b) meant to be inferior due to being civilian craft.
It's not like Break Tests are hard to pass for most non-FW fliers, since most have an Agility of 3 or 4 (and most of the FW fliers with 1 or 2 can't make Break Tests anyway). An extra rotation ever 2 turns can add up.
Crazyterran wrote: Nope, Interceptor Role fighters must always have the Skyfire rule on their weapon, regardless of target, so they snapshot vs ground targets. Unlike Fighters, who merely get -1bs.
"In addition, Zooming Flyers of the Interceptor type always count as having the Skyfire special rule when firing any weapon in the Shooting phase
or Dogfight phase, regardless of target type."
Crazyterran wrote: Pretty much all of the Forge World Marine flyers are hot garbage now. The Fire Raptor can't shoot air to air, the Xiphon can't use its missile launcher on ground targets...
Oh, how sad. Perhaps you should call in the Imperial Navy for your air superiority needs, like the old (and much better) fluff said?
Nope, Interceptor Role fighters must always have the Skyfire rule on their weapon, regardless of target, so they snapshot vs ground targets. Unlike Fighters, who merely get -1bs.
"Zooming Flyers with the Strike-fighter Combat Role may choose to enter Skyfire mode at the beginning of each Shooting phase. "
Xiphons are Interceptors, but thanks for playing. And Fire Raptors and Storm Eagles are attack flyers, so can't skyfire under Dfts.
See the Sky Assassins rule. You know, reading the actual rules page and all...
Crazyterran wrote: Pretty much all of the Forge World Marine flyers are hot garbage now. The Fire Raptor can't shoot air to air, the Xiphon can't use its missile launcher on ground targets...
Oh, how sad. Perhaps you should call in the Imperial Navy for your air superiority needs, like the old (and much better) fluff said?
Nah, Stormhawks are good, and Stormtalons are decent for air to ground.
reds8n wrote: Not terribly enthused by the rules/this supplement in general.
I am however pleased to see FW responding/adapting to the changes in GW studio books.
I think this about sums up my opinion here. DFTS was a terrible idea, but it's nice to see FW doing what they can to salvage a functioning game out of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, my Marauder Destroyer is a beast at air superiority. Optional skyfire for everything but the hellstrike missiles, and if you're foolish enough to intercept it I get to shoot you (with skyfire) with everything but the hellstrike missiles regardless of range or LOS. Pray that god has mercy on your aircraft, for I will not.
Crazyterran wrote: Get to shoot after you've gotten shot at, so there's a good chance you are a burning wreck, snap firing because of a crew shaken/stunned result (defensive fire turns off if you take one of those) or jinked...
The Destroyer is a superheavy. 9 HP is pretty hard to remove in one turn, and shaken/stunned results are ignored.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Haighus wrote: Whoa! Helstrike missiles in the updated Thunderbolt and Lighting profiles are Heavy 1, not Ordnance!!!
Too bad they still suffer from the "four weapons at full BS" rule. The Thunderbolt can effectively only fire one per turn since it has three guns.
Can my Dakkajets get some of that Strike-Fighter rule? Ill gladly take normal BS against ground targets for the inability to break turn (not like they pass those anyways with agi 2). Seems like Forge World has a better concept of combat roles than the gak GW creatred.
So just not buying or using DFTS is pretty much my opinion on it.
Is dumb that they have flyer rules in MRB then decide to sell another rule book changing all the flyer rules and make some pretty much non-useable for the purpose you originally bought them.
Can't say there has been any support for DFTS among my local group at all.
Overall I liked the new Barracuda (which doesn't substitute the old one - check the DftS FW update), but the lack of squadron option is sad. I'll e-mail then about it.
I find the main weapon to be only 24" strange as hell.
It's worth to note that this new Barracuda has no blast weapon choices outside the CIBs
A word about Strike-Fighters, I always thought that a Strike-Fighter referred to a fighter-like aircraft which was given an tactical / medium bomber. Something like the Tornado or F-15E.
I hope that Forgeworld magnetizes the titans for AT. That'd be ace for different campaigns.
chalkobob wrote: I really hope, if GW does release an 8th edition, that DftS is not replacing the basic flyer rules.
If past experience is to go by at least some part of it will be part of the new rules however the rumour is that 8th Ed is intended to be a more streamlined ruleset. Which means I don't expect the clunkiness of dfts to be added to it.
It's a pointless mini game that only works if both sides bring along one or more flyers. Plus IMHO, Stormcloud Attack provides for a much better dog-fighting game.
Yeah, you can streamline the whole dogfight thing a bunch by having each player compare the total of {their pursuit} - {opponent's agility} from flyers in reserve. Whoever has the highest score has "air superiority" for the turn and a reserve bonus.
Then they can keep DftS as a supplement for both people that thought it was awesome.
I think there is something to it, even if it's imperfect. If both players have fighters you have the dogfight phase, but I think on a certain level the real intent is to coax a player who brings a flyer when the other didn't into leaving it off the table for a large enough part of the game that it balances the lack of ability to counter fighter with a fighter. Intent is not the same as execution but I think that's where they were going with that.
aka_mythos wrote: I think there is something to it, even if it's imperfect. If both players have fighters you have the dogfight phase, but I think on a certain level the real intent is to coax a player who brings a flyer when the other didn't into leaving it off the table for a large enough part of the game that it balances the lack of ability to counter fighter with a fighter. Intent is not the same as execution but I think that's where they were going with that.
The problem with that idea is that you can't leave it off. Reserve rolls are mandatory, and by the time you can get a flyer onto the table then off the table next turn your opponent's reserves have probably arrived already and you might as well just keep your flyer in combat. If anything I think the intent was to punish people for not buying flyers. If you don't spend your $50-100 your opponent can hurt your reserve rolls as a free bonus for bringing their $50-100 kit.
(Of course, knowing GW, maybe they forgot that reserve rolls are mandatory. The whole system makes a lot more sense if you make them optional.)
Honestly the only things I liked from DftS was the concept of Combat Roles (but as always GW screwed the pooch when it came to writing rules for them), Break Turns and Attack Patterns, even though no one I know has enough fliers to make use of them.
It's a shame in a way that the rest of the stuff added is pretty unappealing and that all of it was just unnecessary.
aka_mythos wrote: I think there is something to it, even if it's imperfect. If both players have fighters you have the dogfight phase, but I think on a certain level the real intent is to coax a player who brings a flyer when the other didn't into leaving it off the table for a large enough part of the game that it balances the lack of ability to counter fighter with a fighter. Intent is not the same as execution but I think that's where they were going with that.
The problem with that idea is that you can't leave it off. Reserve rolls are mandatory, and by the time you can get a flyer onto the table then off the table next turn your opponent's reserves have probably arrived already and you might as well just keep your flyer in combat. If anything I think the intent was to punish people for not buying flyers. If you don't spend your $50-100 your opponent can hurt your reserve rolls as a free bonus for bringing their $50-100 kit.
(Of course, knowing GW, maybe they forgot that reserve rolls are mandatory. The whole system makes a lot more sense if you make them optional.)
Not to mention the fact it's a slap in the fact in particularly for Tyranids and Chaos Daemons, who both relay on FMCs more than anything. So, other than being pushed into buying Heldrakes both armies get to watch their reserves be diddled for free because, you know, the writers also forgot that FMC exist.
Even more hilarious when you realise that Tyranids and Daemons were also both supposed to be the Reserve Shenanigan armies.
If Trygon holes did suck that is. If they didn't introduce an auto-win tabling condition that is.
I was listening to the frontline guys talk about it when it came out. I liked that having air superiority gave +1 to reserves coming in and -1 to enemy reserve rolls.
So before DFtS the vulture was a brilliant flyer - cheap and shoots a ton of shots - now it has been nerfed a bit ( no skyfire) has it lost its edge to other flyers or is it still the "best"?
Wulfthrad wrote: So before DFtS the vulture was a brilliant flyer - cheap and shoots a ton of shots - now it has been nerfed a bit ( no skyfire) has it lost its edge to other flyers or is it still the "best"?
I know some local players complaining that the Vendetta is now worthless for its points (besides the lack of rules issue) and that the vulture got hit hard, but personally, as an owner of a vulture and 3 vendettas, I'm glad they lost skyfire. It never made sense to me that a gunship/transport and a gunship were better armed and armored than most air superiority fighters, making them far better choices against enemy aircraft. The equivalent of a Mi-24 Hind and AH-64 Apache should not be the preferred choice to shoot down enemy planes.
DftS was a major disappointment in that it didn't bother to adjust rules or points costs for any units beyond adding the two new planes and the P and A stats. With how terrible the bomber rules are, the Void Raven needed a price drop or to get it's armor 11 back. And the DakkaJet as a fighter with only S6 guns is pretty bad. And giving interceptor to the tail guns of the mek plane when it no longer has skyfire was cruel. Either bump Supashootas to S7, or give ork planes the ability to buy single shot rokkits for say 5-10 points a pair.
On the topic, I plan to grab a new barracuda once the new IA and Skitarii upgrades come out, and also really want to source 2 of the old ones from...places to run the new one as an AA craft and the two old ones against ground targets.
Wulfthrad wrote: So before DFtS the vulture was a brilliant flyer - cheap and shoots a ton of shots - now it has been nerfed a bit ( no skyfire) has it lost its edge to other flyers or is it still the "best"?
Still viable, and arguably better than it was. It was never very good at skyfire anyway (STR 5 vs. AV 11-12 is weak at best, and it's much harder to get rear arc on other flyers than static ground targets) and it gained the possibility of making a third 90* turn each turn to get a good shot against ground targets.
Wulfthrad wrote: So before DFtS the vulture was a brilliant flyer - cheap and shoots a ton of shots - now it has been nerfed a bit ( no skyfire) has it lost its edge to other flyers or is it still the "best"?
I know some local players complaining that the Vendetta is now worthless for its points (besides the lack of rules issue) and that the vulture got hit hard, but personally, as an owner of a vulture and 3 vendettas, I'm glad they lost skyfire. It never made sense to me that a gunship/transport and a gunship were better armed and armored than most air superiority fighters, making them far better choices against enemy aircraft. The equivalent of a Mi-24 Hind and AH-64 Apache should not be the preferred choice to shoot down enemy planes.
DftS was a major disappointment in that it didn't bother to adjust rules or points costs for any units beyond adding the two new planes and the P and A stats. With how terrible the bomber rules are, the Void Raven needed a price drop or to get it's armor 11 back. And the DakkaJet as a fighter with only S6 guns is pretty bad. And giving interceptor to the tail guns of the mek plane when it no longer has skyfire was cruel. Either bump Supashootas to S7, or give ork planes the ability to buy single shot rokkits for say 5-10 points a pair.
On the topic, I plan to grab a new barracuda once the new IA and Skitarii upgrades come out, and also really want to source 2 of the old ones from...places to run the new one as an AA craft and the two old ones against ground targets.
While those helicopters are not meant to shoot down aircraft there are some helicopters that have anti-air missiles for use against other helicopters and sometimes planes if a target of opportunity shows itself. Still it is not usually the helicopters primary role. So I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility the Vendetta/Valkyre should have one weapon with skyrfire. Maybe the primary lascannon has extra targeting sensors?
Gamgee wrote: While those helicopters are not meant to shoot down aircraft there are some helicopters that have anti-air missiles for use against other helicopters and sometimes planes if a target of opportunity shows itself. Still it is not usually the helicopters primary role. So I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility the Vendetta/Valkyre should have one weapon with skyrfire. Maybe the primary lascannon has extra targeting sensors?
I like how Aeronautica Imperialis handled it: Valkyries and Vultures had a light AA weapon or two in some configurations (pure ground attack in others) but had very limited speed and lower maximum altitude compared to proper fighters. So they weren't very point-efficient AA units when they did get to fight, and proper fighters could bypass them entirely in some situations. Unfortunately this strategic depth doesn't translate to 40k (despite the 40k flyer rules being a lot more complicated) so it makes sense to just approximate the Valkyrie as "no skyfire". You can throw shots at aircraft and hope for 6s, but you should have brought an air superiority fighter.
The team in the Forge World Studio are always working on new ways to upgrade and personalise your models. They’ve produced plenty of Knights, and now they’re working on Mechanicum heads for knights of all types. Take a look…
They look even more impressive when on a Knight. Check this out…
That’s all from me for now. Make sure you check back soon for more from the Forge World Studio.
They definitely have quite a Dark Mechanicum look to them. The standard Mechanicum is suitably grimdark that they could get away with them too, but I reckon this is FW beginning to shift into more esoteric Dark Mech aesthetics.
How long after the bulletain is it until It is that the things go on sale typucally?
Cause I want the mechanicum heads for an Acheron, but dont want two orders
hotsauceman1 wrote: How long after the bulletain is it until It is that the things go on sale typucally?
Cause I want the mechanicum heads for an Acheron, but dont want two orders
Not sure if it's a schedule they stick to, but it was about 2.5 months for the new Tau barracuda. It was on the bulletin on the 13th May, and it's now up for preorder.
Except the plasma from the warhound is asymmetric. It is right handed, and the Vulcan is left handed. They both look like ass on the top of the reaver.
BrookM wrote: Nothing wrong with them taking a breather every once in a while.
News of new models tend to get quiet in the weeks leading up to events. We'll probably only get news on the AoS Openday until it happens in 2-ish weeks.
Baron Klatz wrote: Because cannibals, daemons, savages and undead weren't enough to make the mortal realms a bad vacation spot, now these guys are showing up again:
BrookM wrote: This could be a reminder that they already sell some Fimir:
And maybe setting it up to release their new Fimir model they showed a while ago:
Interesting to know that in the General Handbook PDF from FW, there is a "Fimir Dirach Balefield" considered as Leader but there is no actual warscroll for this model
BrookM wrote: This could be a reminder that they already sell some Fimir:
And maybe setting it up to release their new Fimir model they showed a while ago:
Interesting to know that in the General Handbook PDF from FW, there is a "Fimir Dirach Balefield" considered as Leader but there is no actual warscroll for this model
The regular General's Handbook had points for Bonesplittaz and Beastclaw Raiders despite those Warscrolls and Battletomes not coming out until weeks after. So it's not surprising that they're planning ahead.
Looks huge and beefy and a crap ton of resin to make. Did you get to see it on "sprue's" ( ie with the pour channels and vents, etc etc etc?) or just assembled as is?
I would love to see it as you get it in the package. I bet that thing is huge. I know they told us the price, but in my old age I seem to have forgotten it?
BTW did you bug them about Dorn until security had to 'escort' you out?
Seems a little bullish for the DW. Can cry much see it as a assaulting c&c vehicle for a AdM war convocation though. Wouldn't need a lot of fooling around with. Just change out some weapons and add iconography in the vein of what I did with the Dracosan. It's an expensive bit of kit though and I do already have a Titan on the way so think I'll backburner the idea for a wee while yet
I'm dying to see Magnus and what kind of units they give to the Thousand Sons. We haven't seen much in the way of Librarians so far. It would be cool to see how they make Thousand Sons feel powerful, balanced, but at the same time a lower model count army.
And what else did Kronk get to touch while at GenCon?
Anyway, while I love these big models like the Mastodon and the Stormbird, their price is just too prohibitive for me. Too many dollars for my wallet, and too many points to be usable in most games I play. Looking forward to seeing the rest of Russ and the other things they have in store for us for the next HH book.
Russ looks awesome, nice to see some truly impressive sculpting after a few lacklustre models that they have produced recently.
This makes me interested to see what Magnus looks like. I hate all the artwork for him though and FW seem pretty good at sticking to the original sketches so far.
Honestly I'm just pumped for the Prospero book. I've been saving up for it since the HH range was launched many years ago!
Retrogamer0001 wrote: I wonder if the Russ/Magnus sculpts will be similar to the Ferris/Fulgrim interlocking bases...
Did those two come to blows with each other? It's been a long time since I read that book.
Russ broke Magnus' back over his knee after a duel.
They keep making the bases for characters larger and more elaborate- Pertuabo is standing on a wrecked knight. It would make perfect sense for a broken magnus to be the epic model Russ is standing on for his base, and justify another price increase on primarchs...
Retrogamer0001 wrote: I wonder if the Russ/Magnus sculpts will be similar to the Ferris/Fulgrim interlocking bases...
Did those two come to blows with each other? It's been a long time since I read that book.
Russ broke Magnus' back over his knee after a duel.
They keep making the bases for characters larger and more elaborate- Pertuabo is standing on a wrecked knight. It would make perfect sense for a broken magnus to be the epic model Russ is standing on for his base, and justify another price increase on primarchs...
A pile of fourteen dead Magnuses; Magnus duplicates himself with magic, but it doesn't help against the might of Le Man, Russ! Also the two redacted Primarchs feature as corpses on the base as well.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: I wonder if the Russ/Magnus sculpts will be similar to the Ferris/Fulgrim interlocking bases...
Did those two come to blows with each other? It's been a long time since I read that book.
Must have been a very very long time ago to forget one of the most important parts of the entire Heresy :p Yes, Magnus and Russ fought.
I hope it does interlock, maybe then the great wits* of the internet can go around constantly repeating the same five broken back jokes for the next few years rather than the same five beheading jokes.
*for the avoidance of doubt: sarcasm. Oh so, so, so much sarcasm.
Looks huge and beefy and a crap ton of resin to make. Did you get to see it on "sprue's" ( ie with the pour channels and vents, etc etc etc?) or just assembled as is?
I would love to see it as you get it in the package. I bet that thing is huge. I know they told us the price, but in my old age I seem to have forgotten it?
BTW did you bug them about Dorn until security had to 'escort' you out?
Gamgee wrote: I don't understand its weapon profile?
It's the 15" template which has three concentric rings. STR 10 AP 1 on the inner 5" circle, STR 7 AP 4 on the middle 5-10" ring, STR 5 AP 5 on the outer 10-15" ring. Ordnance and blind apply regardless of which section you're in. It's pretty bad because the standard weapon is a 7" D shot, and having some low-strength shooting that can't even reliably hurt MEQs out to 15" isn't worth going from STR D to STR 10.
That's the maximum range of the gun though isn't it? So it has a minimum range of 24? I'm so confused.
Edit
Nvm I get it now.
Edit2
Wow that is one hell of a trash weapon. There is no reason to take it. Thankfully I was only interested in the Heavy Railgun Array anyways. If it turns out to be a single D shot so god help me.
The Apocalyptic Mega-Blast marker has range bands on it, so models under the 5" inner zone take hits at S10 AP1, the 5-7" Middle Zone at S7 AP4 and the 7-10" outer zone at S5 AP5.
Ordnance 1 means it fires a single shot (using the Apocalyptic Mega-Blast marker) with the Ordnance rule.
Blind means if a unit is hit by the template, it has to pass an Initiative test at the end of the phase or be reduced to WS and BS1 until the end of their next turn.
Weird minimum range, way weaker than the default gun, less versatile, less shots. Less space covered by the attack itself. Less accurate since its relying on a single shot as opposed to three. It also doesn't ignore cover like the default one.
On the plus side longer range... and blind. Okay then.
I actually don't like the meteor missile option at all, aesthetically. It's clunky and ugly!
As for Ordnance 1 (Like the default option), does this make all of it's other weapons fire snap shots or does being a GC ignore this? If it ignores it, than what's the purpose of it being listed?
No battle cannon, no heavy bolters, no treads even. Pretty much a complete redesign of FW's previous Leman Russ models.
We're seeing less than half the finished model in the promo pic. I think it's a very big call to say that stuff won't be there given we don't have a complete picture.
The default gun comes with a 7 inch D ap 2 blast. This thing would make that a 7 inch Str 7 ap 4 blast. Then even weaker around it.
Why on gods earth would anyone make these stats? It's like the people at FW didn't even try and think. If they wanted mass anti infantry or the blind effect to go off lots then it should have been a very high fire rate weapon.
This is a titan! One of the strongest weapons of war. As of right now we can't kill other titans and its new primary weapon is something I would see on a regular Tau unit in the future. Not a freaking titan.
Saying the Tau players and people who payed a lot of money for the model are pissed is an understatement. I really hope they don't nerf the main gun considering the ease with which grav spam annihilates it.
Gamgee wrote: The default gun comes with a 7 inch D ap 2 blast. This thing would make that a 7 inch Str 7 ap 4 blast. Then even weaker around it.
Why on gods earth would anyone make these stats? It's like the people at FW didn't even try and think. If they wanted mass anti infantry or the blind effect to go off lots then it should have been a very high fire rate weapon.
This is a titan! One of the strongest weapons of war. As of right now we can't kill other titans and its new primary weapon is something I would see on a regular Tau unit in the future. Not a freaking titan.
Saying the Tau players and people who payed a lot of money for the model are pissed is an understatement. I really hope they don't nerf the main gun considering the ease with which grav spam annihilates it.
Probably because they dont give a rats back side about how powerful a thing is. just that it looks cool.
they dont carry a competitive mind set. so it probably wont ever make sense.
I am afraid the heavy rail gun array is going to be Str D 1 shot. ap 1. :(
I think that is the coolest of the primary weapons so I hope its got good titan hunting capabilities instead of being another joke so I have a reason to magnetize the back.
Gamgee wrote: Why on gods earth would anyone make these stats?
Theoretically it's a 15" barrage weapon, so it's capable of wrecking horde armies with no cover saves allowed. That 7" D-weapon shot isn't nearly as impressive against a horde of orks with no big stuff on the table. But in a TAC list stuff D-weapons are good against is so common that you always take the D-weapon.
Gamgee wrote: Why on gods earth would anyone make these stats?
Theoretically it's a 15" barrage weapon, so it's capable of wrecking horde armies with no cover saves allowed. That 7" D-weapon shot isn't nearly as impressive against a horde of orks with no big stuff on the table. But in a TAC list stuff D-weapons are good against is so common that you always take the D-weapon.
Apocalyptic Mega Blasts are only 5/710 range now, otherwise this might actually be useful.
It's far from a bad weapon, but so far there is only fringe cases where you wouldn't just use SD 7 inch. Even with the pulse option, an apocalpytic barrage is wildly innacurate and should almost never be chosen as the firing mode.
BrookM wrote: I think the communist fishies may also a bit upset.
I benefit each way. I play Tau and Mechanicus.
And Tau are not communists. They have a clearly defined caste and class system, and trade with other societies using a currency.
BrookM wrote: I think the communist fishies may also a bit upset.
I benefit each way. I play Tau and Mechanicus.
And Tau are not communists. They have a clearly defined caste and class system, and trade with other societies using a currency.
They're pop culture communists. It's honestly pedantic to point out they don't match with actual communism.
BrookM wrote: I think the communist fishies may also a bit upset.
I benefit each way. I play Tau and Mechanicus.
And Tau are not communists. They have a clearly defined caste and class system, and trade with other societies using a currency.
They're pop culture communists. It's honestly pedantic to point out they don't match with actual communism.
There is a pretty big difference between the economic theory of communism by Marx and engels, and the political expression of authoritarian communism by lenin, stalin, mao, and others.
It needs an extra shot or two, or to be at least fifty points cheaper. Having it as a free swap for the awesomely versatile pulse driver, even with double the (already unnecessary) range is not good.
They should rework the datasheet to make the MML the base weapon and the pulse driver the expensive upgrade and reduce the starter cost to 550 or something.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: More Fimir, looks like my AoS army is decided then... Loved those spooky mist beasts since the Paul Bonner art so many years ago.
That dragon makes a great first impression, but on closer examination, the back legs look too static, the tail looks awkward and the head design means it will be very hard to establish any sort of focal point as there essentially isn't a "face" thanks to all the horns.
My friend will be happy. Particularly with gaining attack flyer typing. Actually if the flyer supplement wasn't banned in the ITC I dare say flier spam and countering it would be the new meta.
Azreal13 wrote: It's the Warhammer:Age Of Sigmar open day, so no, unless you count some potential counts as stuff.
Some of the Age of Sigmar stuff looks better than other things - I have always liked the imagery of a warrior standing on the back of a monstrous mount, like some kind of surfing.
Anyone else feeling like his head looks a bit small, though?
I get the feeling that his helmet has become a permanent addition to his head. So, no. Not really lol.
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Azreal13 wrote: That dragon makes a great first impression, but on closer examination, the back legs look too static, the tail looks awkward and the head design means it will be very hard to establish any sort of focal point as there essentially isn't a "face" thanks to all the horns.
Since it's a WIP, I'll wait to see the finished result and a painted version of it before I give it any criticism.
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