First off, I don't really want stuff like "you MUST take vulkan and assault Terminators!" or "Sternguard are only good with this loadout in a drop pod!" stuff. I don't have a lot, can't afford much, and I want to learn how to utilize what I have. Please, help me go through each unit and how to use it effectively.

Let's start with the humble tactical marines:
1.What can they do well?
2.what should they do?
3.How and when to combat squad
4. what can combat squads do well?
5.how to use a rhino
6.what should the sergeant have?

1. They're flexible, being able to adapt to an enemy during deployment, rather than relying on sheer power.

2. Understand Combat Tactics and Combat Squads. These two abilities, combined with ATSKNF is what makes vanilla marines such a flexible army.

3. Depends on the enemy. As an example, take a 10 man Sternguard squad, 5x melta/5x plasma (combi) in a drop pod with a Death Wind Launcher.

Facing a horde army with no tanks and little anti-tank? Drop the pod empty and fire the DWL every turn until destroyed. Facing heavy transports like Land Raiders? Drop Pod the squad, and combat squad as they exit; shoot the LR with melta, expose the passengers, and fire appropriately into it with the plasma. Facing MCs in a kill points game? Focus on the biggest target with all 10 troops, or drop it at a good defensible position and fire at range with Kraken bolts.

4. Hold Objectives, and in the above case, split fire in a sense. Essentially, whatever MSUs can do.

5. Passengers will have a target; use the Rhino to bring them to that target. When done, tank shock or use as bait. Rarely, you'll use it as a transport twice. Pill box Rhino doesn't work very well in 6th ed, but drive-by shooting is still somewhat useful. Either way, the biggest advantage of a rhino is not its capacity, but the fact that you can shoot out of it with 2 models.

6. Combi-Bolters are useful. Otherwise, a plasma pistol for precision shots to snipe wargear. You rarely want to put yourself into CC, and when its forced on you, its likely the enemy is a dedicated CC unit; Sergeants and their squad will rarely survive such units to warrant melee weapons. Melta Bombs and Krak grenades do a good enough job for all other situations.

Alright, thanks for the answers! I need a lot of help, as I really don't want to keep loseing

For number 6: I find that having power swords are good too. although I do see your point, as every time my sergeant gets into a challenge he gets wasted/whiffs horribly. what should I have them do when getting charged by another unit?

question number 7: Often times I have to do a mad end game scramble for another objective. is there any way to avoid this when very little is left on the table?

I agree with Shadelkan on 1 and 4, and I have the following to add

2. The primary purpose of any troops choice should be to work towards capturing and holding objectives. While this includes both claiming objectives themselves and shooting enemy units, never forget that in 5/6ths of the games, claiming objectives decides who wins.

3. Although there are a lot of semantics, if you are looking for "general rules" for combat squadding, you break a 10 man squad down for objective missions, and keep them as one big squad for KP missions to offer fewer units to destroy. That being said, this can all change depending on army composition (both yours and your opponents) and how many objectives are available. The only other guideline I'd offer is that you almost always combat squad if the squad has a Razorback.

5. They serve two purposes, to move your troops from A to B quickly, and to help protect them while doing so. After disembarking from a Rhino, the best things to do with it are to either try to tank-shock an enemy unit off the board, or to use it as a wall of sorts to try to block LOS to your models. However, in many cases, it is also reasonable to hide your Rhino, especially if you think you'll need to redeploy the tactical squad elsewhere.

6. Generally speaking you'll want either a combi-flamer, combi-melta, or a power sword on your sergeant, or possibly a combination of those. Combi-flamers help protect your unit against charges, combi-melta's give you a little bit extra anti-tank, and a power sword means that if you get charged by anything that isn't a terminator you can challenge and hope to mitigate some of the damage from the unit. While not as good against high Initiative units, against I4 or worse you can save yourself from a lot of damage.

7. Remember to always keep objectives in mind, and start moving towards them on turn 4 at the latest. If you start thinking about capturing objectives on the last turn, you are never going to be able to get into position in time. Transports, like Rhino's and Razorbacks, help a lot, but you have to start thinking a turn or two in advance. Don't just move your guys forward, think "Where do I want squad X to go and what do I want it to do". Come up with some sort of gameplan and always keep it in the back of your mind.

Alright, thanks for that! Now, could you help me and decide if each unit is a good idea? I use Cato Sicarius as an HQ, so I try to make each one to fit a special rule (remember, I can only pick one rule between Infiltrate, scout, counter assault, and tank hunter)

Troop1: Tactical squad (10 man, power weapon, melta bomb, lascannon, Meltagun, rhino)-240pts
I tailored this unit to use the TankHunter special rule. Although I only tried it once, I would like to try combat squading them, putting the lascannon squad in the defense line and use their tank hunter rule on the quad gun. The sergeant and melta gun would be in a rhino to try and drive towards any tank in need of killing.

Troop 2: Tactical squad (10 man, power weapon, melta bomb, Flamer, Heavy Bolter, rhino)-225pts
This squad would be one unit most of the games, serving as my Counter-Assault unit when the need arises. I try and use them as a turn 5 objective getter (bad idea x-x)

Troop 3: Tactical squad (10 man, plasma pistol, melta bombs, flamer, plasma cannon, Heavy bolter razorback)-235p
This squad can use the Infiltrate rule, which I pull out when I don't really have the need for the other rules. I combat squad them to use both the razorback and the plasma cannon.

Infiltrate Plasma Spam Squads are neat, because they can capture objectives in excellent cover that you cannot reach.

Counter-Assault units... Are a bit situational. I don't really like it that much.

Smart move on the Tank Hunter squad, but don't take a power weapon; combi-melta instead and combat squad with the meltagun in the rhino.

oh, never thought about the combi-melta on troop 1! thanks

Now, a slightly similar question, this time about some sternguard (don't have a drop pod and little else for the models)

Cato Sicarius-200p
Elite 1: 8 Sternguard vet (x3 combi-melta/plasmas, x2 plasma rifles, power axe, melta bombs, Rhino)-290p


Okay, put them together cause they stay in the same rhino. I usually try to use this as an elite killer/ stormtrooper type of unit. I like the plasma rifles a lot and actually had some big units run away from them. the noable accomplishments are:
Annihilated shrike and his infiltrating 10 man assault terminator squad.
Destroyed a 10 man tactical terminator squad, leaving only 2 guys left
Killed a Daemon prince of khorne
Killed vulkan He'stan


The questions i have is:
1. how to use them to the most effect (no drop pods)
2. position them a little more
3. how to protect them better

(hope that wasn't too derpy.)

Any tips for them? please?

First off, don't use plasma guns or melta guns. The reason people take Combi weapons is two-part; for starters, its unlikely youll get more than one shot off. Secondly, the Sternguard's special ammo. Using a combi weapon lets them keep that.

Rhino is fine for Sternguard, but as I explained, Rhinos are just transports to get them into position. In terms of positioning, it all depends on their target. Naturally, combi-meltas will want to be closer to tanks, and combi-plasma will want to target high toughness, strong armor targets. Remember that you have 30" range shots in the form of Krakken rounds, and can therefore toss long range shots from the safety of cover as well.

Let's put it another way; you want to avoid whatever can kill your sternguard easily (battle cannons). Your opponent will avoid your Sternguard for the same reasons. Drop Pods are a way of forcibly putting the Sternguard where they hurt the most. I personally believe they're better than Rhinos in that regard.

Is there no way to scratch build a drop pod? Build one out of cardboard! Drop pods really rock for the first turn blow up an important target.

If in a Rhino, look at the opponents list and find the most likely target. If you get first turn use the other rhinos as a wall to protect the Sternguard's rhino. At least you will get a 4 + cover save AND it serves as a deterrent vs assaults.

Also, Snipers, Use them well. If applied right, they get awesome. I know very little actually like them. Just remember placement is everything with space marines.

I dislike anything that takes the special ammo away from sternguard. I take them to shoot the special ammo. I also run a lot lighter on combis then most people. I also use a librarian with GoI to port them around. But enough about me...

Your squad is going to drive up to a juicy, non-vehicle target, get out of their rhino, and blow it to atoms. There might be a round of sitting in the rhino popping smoke.

If you get charged, you have enough CC in the squad to give a good showing for yourself. For shooting, be careful how you are positioned when you get out of the rhino. Try to make sure the only thing that can see you is the target you are about to kill. Feel free to sacrifice the rhino. If you are shooting, it has done its job well, anything else you get from it is gravy.

Don't feel compelled to shoot all your combis in the first volley. The threat of melta in the midfield acts as dangerous terrain for vehicles. If they get to close, they might just explode. It doesn't matter that you might miss, fail to pen, or roll something lame on the damage chart. The mere potential is enough to keep some foes at bay.

Back on the subject of combat squadding. It lets you get more use out of your special and heavy weapons, by allowing them to shoot at their optimal targets separately. The price for this is reducing the effectiveness of massed bolter fire. There are few things that can't be taken down by just hammering out a good, solid bolter drill. I think a lot of people ignore the humble bolter. It is one of the strengths of the tactical squad.

There are easier and safer ways to get melta on the field mid battle, like a Land speeder/land raider. I recommend a squad of 5 sterngaurd kitted with melta, drop podding in and destroying a lone vehicle. Then they can do some major damage with special ammo.

Call me a stubborn son of dorn, but I actually like the plasma guns on my guys I find it really meshes well with the other shooting, and provides even more AP2 fire. really, the only time the plasma storm didn't work is when I whiffed against a lone typhus but oh well, thanks for giving me advice besides loadout critque.

So, use the rhino as mobile cover, and use the other rhinos as even more cover. how close should it be? I tried it before and all the rhino convoy did was get in the way of each other. Did I put them too close together?

And is drop podding stenguard always going to be suicide sternguard?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Call me a stubborn son of dorn, but I actually like the plasma guns on my guys I find it really meshes well with the other shooting, and provides even more AP2 fire. really, the only time the plasma storm didn't work is when I whiffed against a lone typhus but oh well, thanks for giving me advice besides loadout critque.

So, use the rhino as mobile cover, and use the other rhinos as even more cover. how close should it be? I tried it before and all the rhino convoy did was get in the way of each other. Did I put them too close together?

And is drop podding stenguard always going to be suicide sternguard?

If it works for you and you are having fun, it's all good.

As for the rhinos, that really depends on the terrain placement, what else you are fielding, who you are facing, etc. The real answer is "enough to hinder your opponent, but not yourself" You want to block your foes lines of fire, while leaving your own open. It's one of the things you have to learn buy practice and experience.

If you drop 5 sternguard, unsupported, odds are they are not going to see the end of your opponent's turn. If you drop them in tandem with other units, keeping the pods between you and the stuff you aren't vaporizing first turn, you may live. 5 guys in power armor are not that hard to erase from the table. While they don't have to be a suicide unit, if you don't support them, they will be.

Hmmm, the 5 man drop pod still doesnt sound too appealing, and I think a MM dreadnought drop pod would do the same for less.

Anyways, lets move onto a bike squad. lets say 3 bikes with an attack bike w/ MM

If you want a plasma guns try command squads. Actually Cato will prefer this, as they work well with him, in terms of wargear, FNP et cetera.

Whereas Sternguard want to just sit there and shoot.
I wouldn't put so many points into a single rhino it becomes a huge target.
It is better to have lots of rhino units about the same price and with the same target priority for the enemy.
I think combimeltas are good for sternguard, as it gives the flexibility of being able to melt tanks. Then I expect their ammo to kill everything else, with the exception that I feel heavy flamers are extremely useful.

The first questions about tactical marines is very broad. In general they can do everything reasonably well, so you can use them however is needed on the die, making sure they are alive to score at the end.
The same with the rhino which can block LOS in many interesting ways, block assaults, tank shock, transport again lots of interesting tactics available with moving units about especially late game, and then you are paying 35 pts just to have a hard to kill storm bolter which is not too bad per se.

Best general marines lessons I have learned are as follows

1. Tacticals first job is to survive. If pushed they can contribute meaningfully, but they need to gang up and can be overwhelmed by a coordinated enemy

2. Rhinos are great on paper but in practice they provide an illusion of mobility. Unless you have heavy armour soaking the enemy's anti tank capabilities your rhinos will almost certainly be dead by end turn 3

3. Because tacticals dont have a CCW they only have 1 attack when charged, or 2 on the charge. Their best contribution is their bolter. For this reason I generally find it easier to bias vanilla marines to shooty over assaulty

4. We have units that cause fear in the opponent. Learn to utilse that fear, it effects their deployment as well as their game play

5. Pick a strategy and do it with conviction. This applies equally to list design as on table play. Dont drop 5 sternguard in a pod, drop 30 in pods, with some beefy HQs to boot. Dont take 1 dread, take 6. Equally dont try and have assaulty and shooty. If you shooty, you will have local counter assault, ie one flavour of terminator, probably tac terminators, however the idea is to do your main strength blisteringly well then you can mop up and take objectives.

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
Best general marines lessons I have learned are as follows

1. Tacticals first job is to survive. If pushed they can contribute meaningfully, but they need to gang up and can be overwhelmed by a coordinated enemy

2. Rhinos are great on paper but in practice they provide an illusion of mobility. Unless you have heavy armour soaking the enemy's anti tank capabilities your rhinos will almost certainly be dead by end turn 3

3. Because tacticals dont have a CCW they only have 1 attack when charged, or 2 on the charge. Their best contribution is their bolter. For this reason I generally find it easier to bias vanilla marines to shooty over assaulty

4. We have units that cause fear in the opponent. Learn to utilse that fear, it effects their deployment as well as their game play

5. Pick a strategy and do it with conviction. This applies equally to list design as on table play. Dont drop 5 sternguard in a pod, drop 30 in pods, with some beefy HQs to boot. Dont take 1 dread, take 6. Equally dont try and have assaulty and shooty. If you shooty, you will have local counter assault, ie one flavour of terminator, probably tac terminators, however the idea is to do your main strength blisteringly well then you can mop up and take objectives.

Wow, good advise! thanks! alright, so now I also need to ask for advise about Tactical terminators.

I have about 10 tactical terminators, or two of them with auto cannons. Is there any good tips on how to bring them to the game and use them properly? maybe a land raider?

If you are putting terminators in a LR, get assaults. Tac terminators can just walk across the board, ignoring most fire, and pepper things with stormbolters. If you don't want to walk, a 5 man squad makes for a good reserve unit. Deep strike them to where you need them. They can do just about anything, so make for good troubleshooters. I dislike having too much of my army in reserves, as the part on the table has to suffer under heavy fire until help arrives.

I like the assault cannon. If you are going to be shooting stormbolters at something, the AC will work at killing your target. One of the things I dislike about CMLs is that is you need the krack missiles, odds are you are wasting the bolter shots. If frag missiles didn't consistently disappoint me every time I shot one down range, I might change my opinion, as they actually have synergy with the rest of the squad.

I blame my scatter die.

Plus, the assault cannon just looks cool.

Heavy flamers are the oft overlooked terminator weapon. They are cheep, but very short range. 6th made them a bit better. If deep striking, I might take one, but I'd rather shell out the points for one of the better guns. If fielding a 10 man squad, I might include it just to mirror the classic tac squad special weapon.

A chainfist or two in the squad is like putting melta bombs on your sergeant. Good if you have a spare 5 points. As you are already getting a lot of powerfist attacks, it's not really necessary. It does ensure that anytime you are in CC with a vehicle, you will be walking away from it's smoking wreak the turn after.

For what it's worth, my most common deployment of them is a 5 man squad, assault cannon, one chainfist. About a 50/50 chance of deepstriking or walking, depending on the rest of my list, my mood, the table, and my foe.

The most fundamental lesson to learn about vanilla Space Marines is that while they can do everything, they cannot do anything particularly well. Tau and Guard outshoot them, Chaos and Orks out-assault them, Eldar/Dark Eldar outrun them, et cetera. You will win games by finding your opponent's army's weakness and exploiting it, not by leveraging your own strength. Don't tie yourself to one army build; you need to be able to take on any enemy army in their weakest field to win, which means assaulting shooty armies, popping transports, shooting assaulty armies, et cetera.

Alright, sounds pretty good. Now, I need to ask about my heavy support: whats the best way to use vindicators?

As for equipping tactical sergeants, I think a power weapon is a good option, especially against heavily armoured foes. Sure, you don't want to get your tacticals in CC, but your opponent might disargee with that. Tactical squads are most effective in rapid fire range, and when they get that close to the enemy, they get assaulted quite often. A single power weapon is a considerable boost to the squads CC potential; against 3+ armour a power sword triples the sargeant's kills.

unless he gets challenge an both your sergent and your opponent's kill each other... X-X

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
unless he gets challenge an both your sergent and your opponent's kill each other... X-X

Seems likely enough, but it's better than the alternative. I recently watched a game where Blood Angels Sternguad and Dreadnought were locked in combat with Dark Angels tactical squad for four full turns, because the sargeants were in challenge with each other, neither had a power weapon and they just didn't manage to kill each other. For last two of those turns the DA sergeant was the only surviving member of his squad. He finally won and was pulverised by the dread next turn.

 Crimson wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
unless he gets challenge an both your sergent and your opponent's kill each other... X-X

Seems likely enough, but it's better than the alternative. I recently watched a game where Blood Angels Sternguad and Dreadnought were locked in combat with Dark Angels tactical squad for four full turns, because the sargeants were in challenge with each other, neither had a power weapon and they just didn't manage to kill each other. For last two of those turns the DA sergeant was the only surviving member of his squad. He finally won and was pulverised by the dread next turn.

Oh dang O-O that sounds fun.

okay, so onto vindicators... how can you protect them the most?

First appreciation of vindicators is keeping large parts of the board free from your guys, meaning you either want shooty, or highly mobile surgical you can ram down an opponents flank.

Im not a great fan. Best fitout in my opinion would be a wall of av13 and 14 so flanks protected with your infantry either in vehicles or gunline formation. Very cinematic.

Problems are limitations on your manoeuvre and ease of dealing w them. Ie opponent MCs in your deployment zone, vindis are useless. For that reason adding in a TFC and plasmagun squad would synergise well.

Having said that its a beast against everything. Nurgle, fortifications, etc

How close should the other rhinos be? and would devastators w/ 3 rocket launchers be a good idea in place of the TFC?

The 3 rocket devs serves a much different purpose than the thunderfire. The thunderfire is something that can put decent damage on lower armored troops. Or manipulate how the opponent is moving. The quake submunitions shells are awesome in the right circumstances.

The devs are a purely damage output. They either crack transports/vehicles. Or they are killing troops. So you have to decide if you want slightly less damage output for the ability to bolster a ruin and manipulate things in your favor. Or have pure damage output.

TFC is the best tool we have, dont give it up for nothing! The main reason why? it can ignore cover with 4 blasts at str 5! That's huge against IG/harlies/scouts/any army that likes to bunker down behind an aegis line for that 2+ cover (when going to ground)

Rockets are nothing compared to that. I put 15 wounds on a strike squad with a tfc behind a wall and they lost 4 and ran off the baord in the first turn. TFC is our baby. That and you get a free techmarine (plasma gun, flamer, 2 powerifst attacks? 2+ armour? yes please) to boot and get to boost ruins, which synergizes well with scouts/tacs trying to survive.

Dont leave home without one.

Vindicator is best in reserve (except for hammer and anvil deployment) protected from alpha strikes and can come where you need it/potentially popping up close are to their line than they would like. He's also a counter to deep striking armies if held in reserve

Attack bikes are also pretty fantastic, 50 points for 2 t5 wounds, a MM and bolter. I run at least 2 if i can just for mobility and destroying things.

the only thing to potentially give sternguard is a heavy flamer... but i run 2 combi flamers instead. 2+ poison is just too good, it's our main way of dealing with MCs /Artillary (yep!)/anyone who has been iron-armed or is otherwise just high toughness

Hmmm. speeking of vindis in reserve i need to ask:
when should i reserve my stuff? For the last two games my vindicators and sternguard started off the board and rolled on
(twice facing vulkan drop pods)

Traditional reserves (ie: troops that dont deepstrike or outflank) for us are typically used for mobility, protection, and response.

Protection: aka vindicators and things which are high priority targets for your opponent with relatively short range. Thus you keep them out in reserve to protect them from long range shooting (and if they dont have any then dont keep them in reserve!) and wait for the opponent to get closer. This is best for vanguard strike and hammer maps since it's faster to get in range from reserve.

Mobility: poor mans outflank, again for maps like vanguard and hammer (mostly vanguard) where your opponent is expecting you to come from one angle and you can use your long table edge to potentially start flanking around him. I typically leave my bikes in reserve in vanguard strike maps for this purpose, and leave them out but hiding for the othr 2 deployment types.

Response: counter to drop pod armies. They drop in, you counter by popping out of reserve. Mostly for stuff like vindis.

Sternguard are not generally a good thing to reserve unless it's a super short map and you need them to just chill. Id rather have them out and in cover with my libby and then gate around as needed to deal with things.

Stuff to reserve:
bikes, storm talon, vindicators, maybe a combat squad or so in a rhino, etc

Largo39 wrote:
Traditional reserves (ie: troops that dont deepstrike or outflank) for us are typically used for mobility, protection, and response.

Protection: aka vindicators and things which are high priority targets for your opponent with relatively short range. Thus you keep them out in reserve to protect them from long range shooting (and if they dont have any then dont keep them in reserve!) and wait for the opponent to get closer. This is best for vanguard strike and hammer maps since it's faster to get in range from reserve.

Mobility: poor mans outflank, again for maps like vanguard and hammer (mostly vanguard) where your opponent is expecting you to come from one angle and you can use your long table edge to potentially start flanking around him. I typically leave my bikes in reserve in vanguard strike maps for this purpose, and leave them out but hiding for the othr 2 deployment types.

Response: counter to drop pod armies. They drop in, you counter by popping out of reserve. Mostly for stuff like vindis.

Sternguard are not generally a good thing to reserve unless it's a super short map and you need them to just chill. Id rather have them out and in cover with my libby and then gate around as needed to deal with things.

Stuff to reserve:
bikes, storm talon, vindicators, maybe a combat squad or so in a rhino, etc

okay, sounds pretty good. But what about the vindicators getting down range quickly? Usually the enemy isn't within 24in's of the table edge, so it's another wasted turn when the enemy can out maneuver them.

It's true and that's going to be your judgement call there!

here's what you can expect:
Your Vindi will be priority number 1, and number 2 only if they are a flyer army and you have a quad/Icarus cannon.

The general expectation with a Vindi is to get off 1-2 shots, that's your goal, so you need it to survive to that point.

So the decision whether or not to reserve him really depends on the makeup of your opponents army. If he's all deep striking, then you can sure bet he'll deepstrike someone with melta or the like right next to your precious and blow him out of the water. In this case, reserve him. Sure you may not get him when you need, but it beats him being blown up.

If your opponent is lots of long range and you are able to keep him out of range or in decent cover, then keep him out. Otherwise id reserve him! Note, if they are ALL long range, then just keep him out anyways, because otherwise he'll never get a chance to do anything. Note that most of the top tier armies though right now have a key element that is midfield (wraiths, strike squads, all of nids, etc), so you SHOULD be able to get a shot off the turn you come out of reserve. If not then that means you're handling your opponent's pressure pretty well orrr ur lines are already swamped and everything is in CC. *shrug*

If your opponent is all medium range (GK, crons, etc) then yeah keep him out, you shoudl be able to maneuver him such that he can get in range on your turn.

Also remember it's not 24" away from the table edge for vindicators. It's 30" away from the table edge, 6" move off table edge, then your 24" range. Which in 2/3 deployments is 6" past centerline on their side. That's a big deal for any non gunline army that's trying to take centerfield.

Vindis in my opinion should only reserve in lightly armoured lists.

When you can present an AV14 and 13 armoured wall, its game on. Scattler tactical terminators throughout for counters to close in support.

Unfortunately if the opponent has vindicators this approach can now epic fail as whole blast is max strength

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
Vindis in my opinion should only reserve in lightly armoured lists.

When you can present an AV14 and 13 armoured wall, its game on. Scattler tactical terminators throughout for counters to close in support.

Unfortunately if the opponent has vindicators this approach can now epic fail as whole blast is max strength

Actually, once went against an opponent with 3 vindicators while I only had two, and mine ended up winning the dual of the tanks

@ Largo39 Hmm, i understand! thanks!

I have to try and figure out what to do to most things and what to use the rhinos as cover. now, I need to ask again: how could one use rhinos to protect the best targets in your army.

You can do some protection with rhinos and i've done it sucessfully before. What you do is you get your rhino next to your vindi and then shoot the vindi first and have the rhino go all out and move his 6 in front of the vindicator. For anything not elevated it pretty much completely blocks LOS to the vindi.

But that's an expensive 35 point movable wall, im less thrilled about rhinos nowadays though they aint bad, just, i dunno, id rather have more guns.

hmmm, I think I have to lean how to use them better, but now a follow up question: How would you deal with obliterator spam?

I like this thread, its giving me advice on things I never though to ask! let me see if I can add two cents, obliterator spam is pretty hard to kill...sometimes, I find that they are rather costly so some focus fire with weapons that can get around their armor is great.

Just remember that your opponent's dice like to roll ones on armor saves as much as yours do. Give them the chance.

Sternguard rapid firing hellfire rounds will kill anything with a toughness score and an armor save.

The oft-maligned heavy bolter has the strength to wound just about anything, the range to hit them, and the number of shots to force armor checks until they fail.

This thread is awesome! i have read a lot of tips for me to better utilize my brave Blood Ravens! You guys are great!

I have a couple of questions though; is Cato Sicarius worth his price? Also, I'm thinking of making a command squad on bikes and spam some plasmaguns, is this a good idea?

Talking about tacticals squads and all things codex SM ..when do you guys think it's worth taking a rhino or rb over just saving those points for more guns...sometimes I feel like the 105 pts in rhinos for 3 tactical squads is better spent on some more shooty elements. But then I feel like if they do survive pass turn 2 I have so much better mobility.

Thoughts on this predicament of saving pts vs more mobility?

The way I view rhinos is they offer a small modicum of protection. Instead of losing 3 tactical marines to shooting you get your transport blown up instead. Razorbacks are one of those things you should build a list around and go big or go home. Take 6 or take non. I personally don't use razorbacks and never have. But I use rhinos or drop pods for every squad I run that can take one.

oh, an ageis defense line is pretty good with tankhunter I found out. The only thing that is their bane is AP3 ignore cover stuff.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
oh, an ageis defense line is pretty good with tankhunter I found out. The only thing that is their bane is AP3 ignore cover stuff.

This is where anti-flying-dragon-breath-weapon-o-ap3-doom comes in.
Sicarious + Tactical Squad (for tank hunters) + Ageis.... pricey.
I think it's just cheaper to go with Scouts and Telion.

Well i like sicarius so hahaha.

hmmm.... how would you use a stormtalon?

Well, I'm very rusty with 40k... I read the rules on the Stormtalon.
They are nifty, and can make use of terrain well enough due to their small size. Their missile launcher and AC make it very flexible in target selection.

Personally, all my FA slots are Attack Bikers... I don't have room to fit in a Stormtalon into my lists. :-(

 Sanctjud wrote:
Well, I'm very rusty with 40k... I read the rules on the Stormtalon.
They are nifty, and can make use of terrain well enough due to their small size. Their missile launcher and AC make it very flexible in target selection.

Personally, all my FA slots are Attack Bikers... I don't have room to fit in a Stormtalon into my lists. :-(

Just as an aside, something I've found is that if I'm taking more than 1 biker squad in fast attack, at that point it's usually worth investing in a Captain on a Bike to make those squads scoring (unless you are taking minimized squads, but I've honestly found that going for a full squad and using combat tactics offers more versatility).

The Stormtalon really serves two roles, the first being an anti-air fighter, and the second is flying around taking out medium toughness targets (AV 10-12 Vehciles, medium infantry, etc). The best way to kit one out is either with Typhoon Missiles or Skyhammer Missiles. As they are one of the few sources outside of an Aegis that codex marines can take, they might be worth investing in, but they don't even begin to reach the power level offered by Vendettas.

RegalPhantom wrote:


Just as an aside, something I've found is that if I'm taking more than 1 biker squad in fast attack, at that point it's usually worth investing in a Captain on a Bike to make those squads scoring (unless you are taking minimized squads, but I've honestly found that going for a full squad and using combat tactics offers more versatility).

Heh, yea, I use Captain, 3 troop units, and 9 attack bikes for FA Str 10 needed to instant kill bikers is delicious.

As for Vendettas...their tax is like....140 points (aka, cheap HQ the psycher one and naked Veterans) before the bare bones Vendetta...making it a minimum of 270 points investment...lets assume 30 points of gear for the HQ/T...so a 300 point module.

alright, so now i ned to ask: what is the best ways to defeat the new chaos forces?

Depends on what units your talking about?
Cultists? - Flamer templates followed by assault
Dakkafiend- same way you kill a dreadnought. Mid->high str weaponry
Maulerfiend-stay away and shoot it till its dead.
Abaddon-stay away from CC and lots of shots
Helldrake-anti air, aegis or autocannon dreads.

thousand suns?

 Sanctjud wrote:

RegalPhantom wrote:


Just as an aside, something I've found is that if I'm taking more than 1 biker squad in fast attack, at that point it's usually worth investing in a Captain on a Bike to make those squads scoring (unless you are taking minimized squads, but I've honestly found that going for a full squad and using combat tactics offers more versatility).

Heh, yea, I use Captain, 3 troop units, and 9 attack bikes for FA Str 10 needed to instant kill bikers is delicious.

As for Vendettas...their tax is like....140 points (aka, cheap HQ the psycher one and naked Veterans) before the bare bones Vendetta...making it a minimum of 270 points investment...lets assume 30 points of gear for the HQ/T...so a 300 point module.

Welcome back Sanct! Glad to have you back on the dark side

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
thousand suns?

Step 1: You shoot them with boltguns.
Step 2: ???
step 3: Laugh.
Step 4: Profit!

Seriously just high torrent of fire for 1ksons is sufficient. Or assault because if their no over watch.

Chaos struggle to coord

Ie they often short ranged/cc so those elements will advance

Stagger them. Might be as simple as stopping two rhinos.

Then you can take bite sized assault elements in your kill zone.

Expect less DPs now but plenty of bikers.

T5 bikers, solution is plasmaguns. Devs with 4 plasmacannons is nice too.

This advise is really handy, thanks guys.

btw, I'm thinking of adding for my Blood Ravens army either an Assault Termy squad w/ LR, or a Storm Talon (or maybe both). Considering fliers are good in 6th, that would be a reason to take them. However, I'm running into chaos players with lots of KBs, so a counter-strike units is absolutely needed.

Which would you guys pick, and why?

From what I've seen, flyers are good supporting elements, but they don't dominate until you are in the 4-5 numbers.

But, between a ground pounder termies and LR and a few Talongs...it really depends on the rest of the list and what they can handle....or what you fear more: enemy fliers and armor or a deathstar unit that needs hammers to the face to deal with.

Storm Talons rock at hunting MC's as well.

Concerning Rhinos, I used to take 2 Tactical Squads in Rhinos religiously, but in 6th after a few games, I thought "Why take them? They only blow up 1st turn ..." that next tournament I played, I wished I had them all 3 rounds! Sure you can't assault out of them, but for the aforementioned tactics they are valuable to keep for protection.

Seriously, mastering Tactical Squads and Rhinos is the key to mastering any Space Marine Force, as the core of most armies is 2-3 units in Rhinos.

 evildrspock wrote:
Storm Talons rock at hunting MC's as well.

Concerning Rhinos, I used to take 2 Tactical Squads in Rhinos religiously, but in 6th after a few games, I thought "Why take them? They only blow up 1st turn ..." that next tournament I played, I wished I had them all 3 rounds! Sure you can't assault out of them, but for the aforementioned tactics they are valuable to keep for protection.

Seriously, mastering Tactical Squads and Rhinos is the key to mastering any Space Marine Force, as the core of most armies is 2-3 units in Rhinos.

This brings out my philosophy of lots of armour, or none at all.

Rhinos can provide the illusion of mobility. If they backed w three credible heavy support threats, then you get your manoeuvre. If they all you have with tracksthey are toast.

Tacs first, second and fifth priority is to survive. Third is bait, fourth is damage output. The codex is geared for use of elites to bring damage, troops role really should be to walk through the carnage and mop up. Alas it rarely happens that way, in which case we have ATSKNF.

In 6th you can move and bolter to 24. A tac unit may want to. Others may sit on an objective all game and do nothing except survive. Tick that box.

Rhinos in 5th were gold. Unless their blowing up turn 1 is part of the bigger plan, i suggest you think about how much you want to go mech/armoured. My vies is go av14/13 wall or slog it.

Yah I've been doing the AV13/14 wall to cover rhinos in 6th it seems pretty slick. Especially with night fighting a 50/50 shot first turn. So my land raider gets a 5+ cover, my vindicators/preds behind the raider get a 3+ as do the rhinos behind them. Then depending on map/deployment, try to deploy 36.5" away from their serious anti tank and your golden! For some reason I haven't played against podded marine armies a lot as noone think they're good in my area. Despite me typically ravaging them with my pod army. I want to try a 7 pod army soo bad with 4 pods of stern, and IC dreads coming down first turn for a crippling alpha strike.

this thread has been very educational for me

thats the idea now, what else is there that codex Marines can do

That isn't Vulkan related

What about we talk allies? Who do you guys like shoring up our weakness? I honestly find it's hard to take allies because I feel like our codex has answers for whatever we really need...

what do you guys think is our greatest weakness and do we need allies to fix it? If so which army?

It seems like space marines don't benefit from allies the way other armies might, as the req. "allies tax" some people are talking about sometimes adds nothing you need to your army. Allies really need to fulfill a specific role, as you've mentioned, and the points add up fast - it's hard to bring an effective Allied force that's less than 500 points, mine tend to be 750-1000 when I've taken them, and the only allies I've really found to work so far are Demons and CSM. That being said, I'm sure other Space Marine Codexes could provide some love, but when doing that, why not just play a different army?

It is hard to justify Space Marine Allies. I've personally tried Marines w/Eldar, and vice/versa, didn't really do much for me ... (convenience allies).

syypher wrote:
what do you guys think is our greatest weakness and do we need allies to fix it? If so which army?

The only real weakness of marines is that they are essentially an elite army, and so will usually be outnumbered. This is compensated somewhat by the fact that marines are generally hard as nails.
You can take allies to mitigate the lack of bodies, but there is an 'allies tax' when you do, since you have to take an allied HQ and troops choice if you take allies. I personally don't take allies, since i would rather take more marines.

One unit that is often overlooked is scout bikers, they give you the ability to accurately deepstike units, and on top of that, they have grenade launchers. that means they can be a threat to large units of infantry, as well as AV 11-12 vehicles. Just yesterday, i used a unit of scout bikers to exterminate 30 or so chaos cultists over 3 turns, and i was also able to get a librarian and unit of tac terminators into the enemy back field using GOI and chew on a couple of units of havocs. Sternguard would work as well, but the combo works because it adds massive maneuverability to what are generally slow troops unless mounted in a transport

Also overlooked (or more likely forgotten) is the fact that marines come with frag and krak grenades as standard, and while you can only throw 1 grenade per unit, and they have a short range, the ability to have either a blast weapon, or a high strength ranged attack can usually surprise your opponent.

The only allies I would think about taking would be Sanguinary Guards or Death Company Assault Marines. Those guys are probably the best answer to the beefed up bezerkers without having to use bulky and slow assault termies. The fact that they have jump packs also means they can sit back for a turn where the bezerkers can't charge them, and on the my turn, charge in and cut them up.

If im not mistaken(i dont have a rulebook handy right now), the Blood Angels and Vanilla Marines are battle brothers, so a Shrike + Sanguinary Guard/Death Company Assault Team can wreck some junk.

Nice to see I'm not the only one who finds it hard to take allies...Just like Evildr put it... we are an elite army and hard to take down.

When I start adding another MEQ army I start thinking why don't I just play that other MEQ army as the "play style" and "best of" stuff that you spam with them starts to cost so much...if I do something with lots of bodies I start debating if it's worth it to actually pay for the allied tax or just take more marines.

Only army I'm considering that spams a lot of bodies is IG and it just feels like we are already good at range and taking them in large amounts of range support just does almost what we already do. It feels more like a horizontal shift in power instead of a huge contribution that moves upwards on the power level.
-------------------------------------------------------

I was going to bring up talking about best in slot units to take but honestly we have such a versatile codex with really good units in each slot that it really just depends on the rest of your list on what to take...


What about we talk about the Storm Talon a bit more? I honestly do not think it's worth it's points at all. IMHO, it's best taken when playing above 1500 points like 1750/1850. But even then I much rather take 2x Typhoon Speeders for a little more points.

I've only been thinking about allies.

Necrons could be interesting even with the draw back of keeping an eye on them. Esp. with Min Warriors in a Night Scythe.

Tau could be interesting, Crisis Suits to get focused weaponry where you need it and some fire warriors to keep Scouts company.

Blood Angels, FNP bubble, Divination Libby, nuff said.

Space Wolves, Divination Rune Wolf, Grey Hunters, Long Fangs/stormraven

Dark Angels, Belial and super flexible terminators.

Grey Knights: "Cheapo" Cortez/henchman/stormraven.

Just some random ideas....nothing is cheap though... the 'tax' is pretty obvious and overt.

syypher wrote:When I start adding another MEQ army I start thinking why don't I just play that other MEQ army as the "play style" and "best of" stuff that you spam with them starts to cost so much...if I do something with lots of bodies I start debating if it's worth it to actually pay for the allied tax or just take more marines...

What about we talk about the Storm Talon a bit more? I honestly do not think it's worth it's points at all. IMHO, it's best taken when playing above 1500 points like 1750/1850. But even then I much rather take 2x Typhoon Speeders for a little more points.

IG swarms would only work in trying to tar-pit orks or tyranids, but don't have much use against tau/eldar. If you want goodies from different codex chapters, you might as well make another army, since vanilla marines don't have anything that really excels in cc other than very expensive TH/SS/LC Termies(which also require a Land Raider). Might as well pay the same for 2x more units in a Death Company Assault Squad, with jump infantry rules making them very useful against shooty tau/eldar.

the fliers in 6th ed got a boom, with regular shotties having to snap shot to even hit w/out skyfire, combined with the fact that the flakk upgrade is being obscured makes fliers pretty important. On the Storm Talon, I'll take it over the LS storm for the flier rules that were added, throw on missile pods w/ TLAC, that can really hurt hordes.

I've taken allies from 2 other books and stopped taking one of them. I used to take 2 rune priests, 5x grey hunters, and long fangs for 430 points but I never really knew what to do with them. Now the only allies I ever take are a farseer with RoW, and minimum squad of guardians. I park them in back on an objective and let them be.

Despite having what a lot of people consider a lower tier power dex. Like you guys, I find allies hurt me more than help me.

Also to the post above me. I'd argue that th/SS termies are perfectly priced, and don't need a land raider at all. Although it is a decent delivery system. I use a snooty army that allows my termies to drop wherever I need a counter assault unit. It keeps them safely in reserve. And allows them to smash a tied up opponent. For the same price of 5 termies and a redeemer, I can get 8 termies and a Libby in Termie armor.

I could see Tau for Broadsides, Dark Angels/Grey Knights for Scoring unit Terminators, but besides that, I'd rather just play that army instead. Even taking something like Spacewolves for a HQ/Elite Deathstar like Thunderwolves seems really silly to include in another army, especially when Grey hunters seem to do it better anyways, with their 15 pt ccw included marines!

I can see the Blood Angels/Shrike Idea, or maybe for a Storm Raven too, but then I want all my tanks to be fast, and ... hmm, maybe it's not worth the CSM list anymore? Because what doe C:SM give you the others don't?

1) Special Characters
2) Storm Talons
3) Thunderfire Cannons
4) Sternguard
5) Ironclad Dreanoughts

... not sure if I missed anything here, besides perhaps more room for your own flavor, being "Vanilla" in style - "make your own chapter" more than the other armies.

Because if you want amazing assault troops and speed, play Blood Angels. If you OP eliteness, be Grey Knights. Want Deathwing, take Dark Angels. Want undercosted craziness, take Space Wolves, etc.

Probably better than allying in a unit our army is lacking, because perhaps you're trying to play your army in a style that isn't conducive to it's strengths.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chancetragedy wrote:
Now the only allies I ever take are a farseer with RoW, and minimum squad of guardians. I park them in back on an objective and let them be.

That's a good idea, I never thought of that. I might try that next time I bring my Imperial Fists out to play! That and maybe some Vyper Spam, it's hard to tell

One thing that people forget allot when thinking about Vanilla marines is combat tactics. It is a great rule. It lets you get out of combat, when you get shot, it lets you get out of charge range, and with the buff to ATSKNF, there is no longer ANY penalty, because you can all ways regroup.

Oh I know a good topic that I've been pondering on for a while...

Is a singleton terminator assault squad with a land raider worth it? Or is duality a must so they just aren't footslogging all the way and you'll assure 1 gets over to the opponents side?

Also, I've never used this before but its been intriguing me because I really like the idea of having something good in CC in our list..

Termies in a LR need an army built around them... it's hard to just include them randomly.

To the point, you are likely going to have a list that is focused on Armor saturation.... so more AV13 on the board (vindi/pred/Ironclad-maybe) and 3+ rhino/razorbacks.... and you end up with a mechanized list.

evildrspock wrote:... not sure if I missed anything here, besides perhaps more room for your own flavor, being "Vanilla" in style - "make your own chapter" more than the other armies.

Because if you want amazing assault troops and speed, play Blood Angels. If you OP eliteness, be Grey Knights. Want Deathwing, take Dark Angels. Want undercosted craziness, take Space Wolves, etc.

Probably better than allying in a unit our army is lacking, because perhaps you're trying to play your army in a style that isn't conducive to it's strengths.

I'd rather pay an ally tax for a few battles that have to shell a ton of money to start a Blood Angels army. The allies are probably for short term, situational battles where you need a quick boost. I'd rather do that via death company assault marines + dante for cc epicness in a single match than start a whole BA army.

What? You don't want Blood Angels and Necrons brofisting on the table?

 Sanctjud wrote:
Termies in a LR need an army built around them... it's hard to just include them randomly.

To the point, you are likely going to have a list that is focused on Armor saturation.... so more AV13 on the board (vindi/pred/Ironclad-maybe) and 3+ rhino/razorbacks.... and you end up with a mechanized list.

And such a list writes itself. It's my main Vanilla list and it has proven itself to be very reliable to me. Here's what it looks like:

Termie Libby - 125 points
Null Zone and The Avenger

Rifleman Dread - 125 points
5 TH/SS Termies in a Godhammer LR - 450 points

Tac Squad: full size, Flamer and ML; Squad has a TL HB Razorback - 210 points
Tac Squad: full size, Flamer and ML; Squad has a TL HB Razorback - 210 points
Tac Squad: full size, Flamer and ML; Squad has a TL HB Razorback - 210 points


Stormtalon Gunship with TL Assault Cannon and Typhoon Missile Launcher - 155 points
Stormtalon Gunship with TL Assault Cannon and Typhoon Missile Launcher - 155 points


Autolas Pred - 120 points
Autolas Pred - 120 points
Dakka Pred - 85 points

1965 points

You have 35 points to play around with.

The only problem I see with land raiders is what else you could get for the points that do more killing than the raider would. Clearly land raiders are the staple terminator transport. But it's time to start thinking outside the box I think. And for 6th ed. and the points I feel like the crusader is always a better option than the redeemer. Because of how movement and snap firing works with templates.

So for the price of that land raider, you could bump the Dakka pred to a vindi, add 2 more termies to your squad and add another rifleman. Or you could add 2 more termies, and a squad of 5 stern with 5combi melta in a pod. I take lists with land raiders too. People just need to see that there are other options to termies in a raider.

Chancetragedy wrote:
The only problem I see with land raiders is what else you could get for the points that do more killing than the raider would. Clearly land raiders are the staple terminator transport. But it's time to start thinking outside the box I think. And for 6th ed. and the points I feel like the crusader is always a better option than the redeemer. Because of how movement and snap firing works with templates.

So for the price of that land raider, you could bump the Dakka pred to a vindi, add 2 more termies to your squad and add another rifleman. Or you could add 2 more termies, and a squad of 5 stern with 5combi melta in a pod. I take lists with land raiders too. People just need to see that there are other options to termies in a raider.

I take a redeemer for fluffyness, but even then, I think that both have their place.

As for Termies (at least assault termies) the Land Raider is the best option IMO. I do occasionally deep strike with them with a Termie Libby with GoI, but that means a round of shooting before I get to do anything. Other than that, they have to footslog.

I'm fairly partial though since I'm now playing Salamanders. I take Termies to make more use out of Vulkan's awesomeness, and since there's not many different ways to run Termies, into the LR they go.

On top of those LR's I use Drop Pods for the rest of my army, and in those are the Dreads/Tacs/Sternguard.

Yah that's why I said I take raiders too. Cause like yourself I'm a worshipper of flame and fame vulkan's sons. If we're talking tactics I feel like both have their places.

My vulkan list was
Vulkan
2xtacticals
Sternguard
Terminators/lrr
Land speeders
And 3 vindicators.(occasionally a thunderfire)

And occasionally I would use Lysander as first captain Praetor(for those sallie nutzo's like me;p) vulkan with pod lists is such a blast. It's great tearing out your opponents heart turn 1 and watching him just flounder away haha. Lately I've been branching out to other play styles(read combat tactics). And while I don't enjoy it as much as vulkan I have been digging it lately.

 AresX8 wrote:


And such a list writes itself. It's my main Vanilla list and it has proven itself to be very reliable to me. Here's what it looks like:

Stormtalon Gunship with TL Assault Cannon and Typhoon Missile Launcher - 155 points
Stormtalon Gunship with TL Assault Cannon and Typhoon Missile Launcher - 155 points

You have 35 points to play around with.

Why the Typhoon and not the skyfire missiles? More flexibility in target choice and +1 Strength over the superior range and extra shot?

Range doesn't matter on a Flyer. S8 is key against the actual titans of Flyers, the Stormraven and Vendetta since S7 isn't really that hot against AV12.

 AresX8 wrote:
Autolas Pred - 120 points
Autolas Pred - 120 points
Dakka Pred - 85 points

1965 points

You have 35 points to play around with.

Looks like You could just have 3 Autolas Predators, which wouldn't be that bad.

Las;HB preds are pretty good too. That big TL;Las can hit models while the HBs can slay medium numbered units

that got me thinking... what would be better? a x3 missile devaststor squad or a x3 Lasscannon predator?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
that got me thinking... what would be better? a x3 missile devaststor squad or a x3 Lasscannon predator?

Kinda depends on your facing. Missile launchers can beat both hordes(frag) and armored lists if your lucky(krak). Kraks are S8 AP3, ok, but not very effective

3 las pred.(w/ one being TL) is more reliable in taking down armor than missiles(S9 AP2), and can do more while moving Combat Speed(2 reg. BS w/ one Snap Shots, compared to 3 snap shots with moving dev. squads the same length)

Heres one for you guys...

What is our strength? It feels like we really don't do anything amazingly above average, just everything is plain and average.

SW: Great troops, amazing LF, great Razorspam with specials coming in at a 5 man unit and not needing 10, CC beasts as well when done right

BA: Fast, assault oriented, AV 13 all around for durable vehicles and arguable the best SR any army can take, FNP all around

GK: Elite, OP, does things no one else can, and extra rules for sugar on top, almost always buffed every FAQ lol

etc. etc.

What are Codex SMs strengths? (Other than Combat Tactics) Is it just that we aren't necessarily bad at anything?

I believe this would be a good thing for me to have explained by more veteran Codex SM players because honestly, I've wanted to switch Codexes so many times just because I have a hard time figuring out if my army lists are even good. It's hard to build an army list when you don't know the strengths and thus can't build towards it. It always feels like my lists are balanced but kind of hodge podgey.

Codex: Space Marines Uniqueness: Scoring Bikers.
Do note, the SM codex is pretty behind the new(er) hotness.

If I recall correctly, these are the "special" things about Codex Marines

1. Combat Tactics
2. The ability to have scoring bikes (DA also have this ability, but Codex Marines do it better)
3. The ability to take the Thunderfire Cannon (which is underrated, although its questionable as to whether or not Preds are just better)
4. The ability to take the Stormtalon.
5. The ability to take special characters which can greatly boost the effectiveness of certain units (specifically Vulkan and Kantor)

First of all I want to say that i really enjoy reading this post, because vanilla space marines are very hard to play with if you ask me... You really need a good list and knowledge on how to use them...

So, let me tell you this last list i made and tested.. It focused around Fortress of redemption and shooting the enemy before he can do any damage.. it worked extraordinary good.. It was a 1750pts battle against chaos

Okey so fortress of redemption sitting in my corner of the board, icarus lascanon and kraken storm upgraded.
Inside there were - 2 tactical squads operating the weapons from inside the bunkers, and 2 devastator squads on top (one squad was on the top of the tower). You gotta equip your devs accordingly to what are you fighting against, i was fighting chaos so 3x plasma cannons in each squads were the choice..

My offensive group was - 2 5x men squads of sternguard veterans all with combi meltas in drop pods, and one tactical squad with melta/combi melta in drop pod aswell.

Now the question was what HQ should i take with this list? And best choice was Vulkan, so I can be pretty much sure those sternguards are going to pop whatever they need to. I dropped him with the tacticals from the reserve where i needed them.

1st turn was devastating for my chaos opponent, his land rider and defiler got shredded to pieces with my melta, rest of the crew was literally mopped up by plasma storm and that brutal large blast str8/ ap3...

So my conclusion with space marines is that each unit has to be carefully picked, to have a designated role which he must fulfill... if you take lets say terminators just because they terminators it wont do you no good.

Decide the role of your units when you are making the list, imagine it working together on the table, and last pick the HQ that fits the most that list (if you didn't start with the HQ at first place)

For the emperor!

What do you guys think we bring to the table.better than gk for a shooty mech oriented list? right now I have a SM primary and GK allied attachment list. But for a shooting Mech oriented force it just seems loads better to take GK as the primary force. With Coteaz I get real cheap scoring acos which unlocks the broken psybacks. Also gkss are generally better forward pushing units than tactical.

What do you guys think? Does GK do this type of list better? Every way I make a list and math hammer it seems so...

 ace101 wrote:
Las;HB preds are pretty good too. That big TL;Las can hit models while the HBs can slay medium numbered units

I'm not a fan of the TLLC turret. You pay 45 points to get rid of the autocannon. IMHO you should endeavor to be flexible when you can. The AC is a wonderfully flexible weapon. I'm a big proponent of the Auto/Las pred. It's 10 points cheeper then the TLLC/HB, but it's guns can actually work together. If you are shooting at a tank, the lascannon sponsons are better, because the both could hit, giving you 2 rolls on the damage chart. The HBs are just going to bounce off the armor. They might get a glance if shooting at something light. The autocannon gives you two more shots that have a decent chance of contributing against all but the heaviest armor. Against hordes the TLLC/HB is better, but that's the HBs talking. If you are taking it for anti-horde work, just run a Dakka pred and save the 45 points.

I guess my TL;DR summery of the 2 all-around preds (the Auto/Las and TLLC/HB) is that the auto/las is better vs. tanks, and the TLLC/HB is better vs hordes.

And while I'm rambling on predators...

Basic, no frills pred, just the AC in the turret.
Pros: Dirt cheep, Still AV13 up front.
Cons: kinda a waste of a HS slot, the HB sponsons don't cost that much more.

"Dakka" pred, AC/HB
Pros: Still very cheep, good vs hordes.
Cons: Very focused on its job

Auto/Las
Pros: good at killing mid-range armor, high T targets
Cons: Jack of all trades, master of none.

TLLC, no sponsons
Pros: It's a rolling twinlinked lascannon behind AV13
Cons: weapon destroyed results. Pony up for the HBs, they cost dirt

TLLC/HB
Pros: I've got a gun for that. Can do everything
Cons: Half those guns are going to be overkill/useless against your target.

TLLC/LC
Pros: Eat lascannons and die!
Cons: The price. A rhino chassis is a little to fragile for this kind of investment, even with AV13 up front.

syypher wrote:
What do you guys think we bring to the table.better than gk for a shooty mech oriented list? right now I have a SM primary and GK allied attachment list. But for a shooting Mech oriented force it just seems loads better to take GK as the primary force. With Coteaz I get real cheap scoring acos which unlocks the broken psybacks. Also gkss are generally better forward pushing units than tactical.

What do you guys think? Does GK do this type of list better? Every way I make a list and math hammer it seems so...

Honestly I think a few codex's do mech better than vanilla. Pretty much any of the newer SM codex's.

However what I think vanilla does better than grey knights is staying at range and laying down withering hails of fire. What I mean is C:SM is much more tactically diverse than GK in a single list. So you get to choose where battle happen and on what terms. Obviously GK can write different lists but their lists usually only do 1 thing well. GK does middle range better with psybolts, psycannons, and ravens. But we can stay away better. Personally while I see how GK are tough. I've never once had a problem fighting them. I think I'm like 3/5/2 against GK. which I know isn't a great record but to be fair my opponent is really good, and gets invites to national tourneys. So it's an amazing test against him. And every game has been decided by 3 or less points.

Vulkan lists can absolutely TRASH GK in midrange battles I love seeing draigowing against my 3 vindicators, sternguard melta pods, and TH/SS termies. And I've only had 1 combat tactics game agains them with my gun line list and lost but by 1 point. I had FB, he had warlord, and I barely missed getting line breaker for the tie.

Chancetragedy wrote:

syypher wrote:
What do you guys think we bring to the table.better than gk for a shooty mech oriented list? right now I have a SM primary and GK allied attachment list. But for a shooting Mech oriented force it just seems loads better to take GK as the primary force. With Coteaz I get real cheap scoring acos which unlocks the broken psybacks. Also gkss are generally better forward pushing units than tactical.

What do you guys think? Does GK do this type of list better? Every way I make a list and math hammer it seems so...

Honestly I think a few codex's do mech better than vanilla. Pretty much any of the newer SM codex's.

However what I think vanilla does better than grey knights is staying at range and laying down withering hails of fire. What I mean is C:SM is much more tactically diverse than GK in a single list. So you get to choose where battle happen and on what terms. Obviously GK can write different lists but their lists usually only do 1 thing well. GK does middle range better with psybolts, psycannons, and ravens. But we can stay away better. Personally while I see how GK are tough. I've never once had a problem fighting them. I think I'm like 3/5/2 against GK. which I know isn't a great record but to be fair my opponent is really good, and gets invites to national tourneys. So it's an amazing test against him. And every game has been decided by 3 or less points.

Vulkan lists can absolutely TRASH GK in midrange battles I love seeing draigowing against my 3 vindicators, sternguard melta pods, and TH/SS termies. And I've only had 1 combat tactics game agains them with my gun line list and lost but by 1 point. I had FB, he had warlord, and I barely missed getting line breaker for the tie.

Interesting thought. We do bring much more tactics and diverse weaponry to the table. I guess I need to change my mindset from wanting to build an army a certain way (RB/AV spam) when the army I'm using (Codex SM) can't really do it that well. If I don't I'll just keep comparing it to the other armies that do it better and just keep seeing how my C:SM are lacking in that specific criteria. Oh well, I guess if I want to do that type of army I'll need to change armies or just stop wanting to try to build it and just stick to what our current strengths of diversity are. Hmm...

Yah exactly! The other SM codex's do specialization WAYYYY better than C:SM. but we do versatility better. Like if you want assaulty go BA or SW. If you want rediculous 12-36 range shooting and assault do GK. if you want all termies do DA. But if you want an amazing all around tactical list that can play to the weaknesses of your opponent I feel vanilla is best.

alright, so I think it's time to ask for help with my list. I.E. how to use it and what to deploy and stuff. my wallet is empty so I wont be able to buy a lot of things.

Cato Sicarius-200p
Elite 1: 8 Sternguard vet (x3 combi-melta/plasmas, x2 plasma rifles, power axe, melta bombs, Rhino)-290p
Troop1: Tactical squad (10 man, power weapon, melta bomb, lascannon, Meltagun, rhino)-240pts
Troop 2: Tactical squad (10 man, power weapon, melta bomb, Flamer, Heavy Bolter, rhino)-225pts
Troop 3: Tactical squad (10 man, plasma pistol, melta bombs, flamer, plasma cannon, Heavy bolter razorback)-235p
F/A1: StormTalon w/ typhoon missile launcher-155p
F/A 2: bike squad: attack bike w/ multi-melta, plasma rifle, meltabombs-160p
H/S 1: Silver Vindicator (storm bolter, dozer blade)-130p
H/S 2: Heresy Vindicator (storm bolter, dozer blade)-130p
H/S 3: Devastators ( 5 man, x3 missile launchers)-135p
Fort: Aegis defence line w/ quadgun-100p
Total: 2000p


since the start of the DakkaDakka Campaign I am 3/0/4 in my games.
Won against a Vindicator spam by 4vp
Won against a Speed Freak Ork list by 1vp
Won against an old Codex khorn berserker army by 7vp

Lost to a plague marine/Epidemius army by 7vp (they entered hulk mode on the last turn and steamrolled over everything)
Lost to a Vulkan army by 1vp (crowded around an objective and the game ended before I could blow them up)
Lost to a Drop pod Vulkan army by 1vp (damn line breaking drop pod!)
Lost to a New Thousand Suns army by 1vp (had 5 marines left compared to 15)


Arrrg.

The only advice I have for your list is make sure the vindi's are always getting cover from a RB. Av 13 and cover makes them tough as nails. Clearly your goal is to combat squad the tacticals. Leaving 2 or 3 of them behind the aegis to use the quad gun giving one of them tank hunters from Cato? Then have the tacticals and devs ruin transports. What do you do for a counter CC unit? Cause if a dedicated unit makes it past the aegis you seem in tough shape.

Could someone give me a sample of what a good waac competitive vulkan list looks like? Preferably 1850 pts

I hear a lot about how good they are but personally never ran one yet or seen one at our lfgs.

My vulkan list was
Vulkan 190
2xtacticals w/melta, MM, combi melta, rhino/pod 430
Scouts w/camo 90
7 TH/SS terms 280 w/crusader, MM 260
Sternguard 10 man w/2 melta, 4 combi melta, 2combi flamer, pod. 325
2 typhoon/MM speeders(could be substituted for 3 MM/HF or 2 MM/MM, 1 HF/HF) 200/210
2vindicators 230

But that's a 2k list. Although I did stop running the land raider in it. And added another vindi, and an aegis and added telion to the scouts. And this has zero anti air or psyker so it's not Waac. But Waac vulkan lists basically stuff every slot as full of melta/Flamer as full as they can get. To take advantage of the master crafting and twin linking goodness.

Hmm..I thought so..

I made one I thought would be the "WAAC" type of list for Vulkan but it always ends up being extremely lacking in anti-air. Not sure how competitive it can be with such a huge draw back..TL single melta shots across the army won't cut it.

It will be competitive trust me. Basically a vulkan list wants to get on top of an opponent and melt their face into Bolivian. So the 18" movement typically takes them right over your head also don't forget a flyers base cannot be within 1" of your troops so if your on top of your opponent they almost have to fly over you... And if they hover you smash them with twin linked melta. My only flyer problem was outflanking vendettas. My main problem was having 0 anti psyker. That really hurt me against SW with GK allies or the reverse. Because GW in all their wisdom thought twin linking a squad should be the primaris power(idiots). And then they thought giving the overpowered codex's the ability to take that power.

Sounds interesting...if I wanted to run the Vulkan list I created I'd need to come up with 5 Drop Pods and then figure out how to carry them to the tournament. lol Definitely looks like a fun list to play.

I ran mine with at most 3 pods and that seems to work ok. I've seen 7 pod lists with 3 empty pods that seem crazy. So everything comes down turn one that you want. You wall off the area you want force superiority. And just go to town with like 18 melta wounds a turn and sternguard ammo and vindicator blasts backing it up. Another fun tactic for 2k+ is running Lysander in the stern pod. Guarantees they live the round they drop and they absolutely melt anything short of 10 terminators with their special ammo. And the ap3 rounds have a hard time getting hot because of his re rolls.

hmm, those vulkan lists are interesting, here is what I run at 1500

Libby with termi armour (w gate and null zone, gate rocks!)

Rifleman dread
5 sterngurad with 2 combi melta and 2 combi flamer

1 10 man tacs with ML and PG
1 10 man tac with MM and MG
1 5 man scout with ML

Stormtalon
2 attack bikes with MM

1 vindicator
1 TFC

Aegis line with quad cannon

it has something like 30 points left over for wherever (another sternguard likely)

expanding up to 1999+1 would just mean more tac squads really, and going to 7-8 sternguard.


It's very balanced (if maybe a touch light on troops) and has won me a lot, very flexible. If you want it even better and they allow forgeworld you can lose the rifleman dread and downgrade to icarus to get a dual kheres mortis contemptor dread (12 AC shots at bs 5 against anything dropping near ya , and he can man my icarus to make it a bs 5 lascannon shot! w00t!) and 2 hyperios

awwww this turned into another vulkan thread...

I dont really like stormtalons with missiles anymore, it makes him 155 points for something that gets one-shotted (with a pretty high probability, stupid 2 HP) by any quad gun. I like them lean at 130 and move it towards the more durable hyperios

Largo39 wrote:
I dont really like stormtalons with missiles anymore, it makes him 155 points for something that gets one-shotted (with a pretty high probability, stupid 2 HP) by any quad gun. I like them lean at 130 and move it towards the more durable hyperios

That would be if you had hover mode on
General question, do fliers in zoom mode get jink saves, even against skyfire weapons?

What would be if you had hover mode on? The talon doesnt have a standard hover mode.

You can choose to evade always for a 5+ jink, and then if you go all out it becomes 4+ (though if you evade your next shooting is snapshots), thing is when it comes to interceptor shots you couldnt have gone all out so its only a 5+. So with a quad gun and using jink you only end up with like a 55% or so chance of survival (ususally 4 hits, 2 glance/pens, 56% chance to save one, not great odds)

Furthermore since our hover mode prevents the talon from moving you cant use it to come out of reserve, thus with a well placed quad gun it should be nearly impossible to stay out of range of it. This is why night scythes are so much better at 100 poitns annnd why I keep the talon lean when i can/have access to FW

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
awwww this turned into another vulkan thread...

What is a vanilla marine tactics thread without any talk about vulkan and sons of fire?

The Storm Talon to me feels like a necessary evil. I honestly really like the model...I just wish it was a better vehicle or cost less.

Let's consider GK PsyDreads. Using them as an example just because I'm expecting quite a few in an upcoming tournament I'm entering:
1x GK with Psyammo 2x TL ACs has a 10.16% chance of destroying a single Storm Talon and almost guaranteed chance of taking off a single HP.

It only takes 2x GK PsyDreads to destroy our flyer basically. These will be a really high priority for the rest of our army and we will hopefully take out 1 or 2 of them our first turn of shooting so our Storm Talon can hopefully go unmolested. The TL Assault Cannon PsyRB spam only has a 6% chance of destroying our Storm Talon and has an average of .6 HPs being removed. So Possibly one...

The thing I don't like is that even with all these low chances of hitting or destroying our Flyer it only has 2 HP and cost 155pts to have decent guns...


I mean, it's awesome at anti-flyer shooting which is one of the primary reasons we should be taking one, but what do we do if we don't want to take such a narrow and expensive model? What is your non-Storm Talon answer to Flyers? Allies? Go MoF and spam more TL AC Rifledreads? Duality and take 2-3? (A standard GK army with TL Ass PsyRBs, and 3x PsyRifle Dreads can reliably kill 2x a turn without Skyfire or a StormRaven...I did the Math Hammer :/)

It's not so much that the talon is bad (id say about 10 points over, or alternately id take an extra HP), it's just that the vendetta (i mean, really? same base price for 3 TL lascannons and 1 extra HP AND armour, sigh) and night scythe are so much better. Realistically the detta should be more like 155-175 range, and the scythe should be base 125-135, then the talon would look much better. He's still a great harasser and can really wreck anything trying to hide or any other flyers, he's just so fragile given his cost.

Largo39 wrote:
...he's just so fragile given his cost.

Exactly...which is why I hate taking them. After their Alpha Strike, against any half-decent built army list which accounts for flyers, the Storm Talon will die.

Those of us saying that they are living their entire game at a consistent basis may not be fighting a very good all comers list or may be fighting one of the armies with much less answers to flyers in their Codex. Everyone can take a Quad-gun though now for 100pts and Skyfire and it has an almost guaranteed chance of stripping 2 HPs and a 20% chance of getting an explodes result.

So back to my question...What is your non-Storm Talon answer to Flyers? Allies? Go MoF and spam more TL AC Rifledreads? Duality and take 2-3?

Yah this'll be my least constructive post including my previous vulkan one. But I think talons suck because I hate the model. Seriously it's a storm bee... Soo god ugly. I'd take a storm raven in a heart beat if they were codex approved ;(

Chancetragedy wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
awwww this turned into another vulkan thread...

What is a vanilla marine tactics thread without any talk about vulkan and sons of fire?

I dont know, it just seems like an extremely narrow thing to talk about.

syypher wrote:

Largo39 wrote:
...he's just so fragile given his cost.

Exactly...which is why I hate taking them. After their Alpha Strike, against any half-decent built army list which accounts for flyers, the Storm Talon will die.

Those of us saying that they are living their entire game at a consistent basis may not be fighting a very good all comers list or may be fighting one of the armies with much less answers to flyers in their Codex. Everyone can take a Quad-gun though now for 100pts and Skyfire and it has an almost guaranteed chance of stripping 2 HPs and a 20% chance of getting an explodes result.

So back to my question...What is your non-Storm Talon answer to Flyers? Allies? Go MoF and spam more TL AC Rifledreads? Duality and take 2-3?

At 1500, I plan on using weight of fire. At 2k, I'm thinking about taking two Stormtalons for some durability.

My answer too flyers is aegis with telion firing a lascannon or just a quadgun and a rifleman. Then a lot of tactics to keep stuff away from them and out of their firing arc's which can be very restrictive. Typically I ignore flyers as much as is necessary. Great against 2 not so much against spammed or outflanking flyers though.

So i've been playing 1500pts almost exclusively since 6th dropped (mainly because thats what i have painted) However i'd really like to hammer out a 2k list in the near future. I am a White Scar player.

Captain - 175pts.
-Artificer, Power Fist, Bike

Terminator Squad (10) - 460pts.
-2x Cyclone Missile Launchers

Bike Squad (4+1) - 185pts
-2x Melta Guns, Multi- Melta Attack Bike
Bike Squad (4+1) - 185pts
-2x Melta Guns, Multi- Melta Attack Bike
Bike Squad (4+1) - 195pts.
-2x Plasma Guns, Multi-Melta Attack Bike
Bike Squad (4+1) - 195pts.
-2x Plasma Guns, Multi-Melta Attack Bike

Thunder Fire Cannon

1495pts (usually slap a Chain Fist on a terminator)

Now as soon as i increase the point level i typically automatically subtract another 100pts for my second thunder fire cannon. I love em!

But where to go from here? I love having the terminators foot slogging. They provide incredible mid-field presence thats extremely hard to shift, plus they can counter assault, tie anything up that is threatening the bikes etc. I think i'm low on scoring bodies. I've consider 2 tactical squads but they seem pretty lack luster compared to other marines. Maybe 1 tac squad in a drop pod and a small Flamer based Bike Squad?

You could always add another thunderfire, bike squad, and like aegis with a 5man scout squad and telion. Give you an extra 2 scoring units, some AA, and another thunderfire.

Largo39 wrote:
...So back to my question...What is your non-Storm Talon answer to Flyers? Allies? Go MoF and spam more TL AC Rifledreads? Duality and take 2-3?

A 2 3;las preds might do the trick. The TL las can re-roll hits, and with s9 ap2 can really hurt flyers, even vendettas

Hmm..none of the current suggestions really do it for me. Not that they aren't good suggestions if I need a last minute "OMG I NEED TO SHOOT THAT FLYER DOWN NAOOO" answer...but they aren't really reliable answers to take when building a list to be a fairly reliable anti-flyer threat.

So far the only reliable/close to reliable answers I can see consider Codex SM as the primary detachment are:

1) 3-5 Rifle Dreads (Reliably take out 1 flyer...per turn...)
2) Storm Talon (We already talked about it's huge weaknesses)
3) Aegis Defense Line (Reliable to take out 1 flyer a turn on AV11, two turns if AV12 flyer)
4) Allies - IG's giving a Vendetta, GK spamming TL S7 Assault Cannons and a TL S8 Psyrifle Dread, etc.

My personal favorite anti flyer solution for SM are telion on an Icarus. Reliably hits and pens flyers with BS6 and str 9 ap2 96" range. And if you give his scouts camo cloaks they have 2+ saves behind the aegis.

Icarus?

The Icarus las cannon you can attach to the aegis. It's a lascannon with double range basically. And telion gives it precision shot,it hits on a 2 but you reroll a 1 and on a 6 it hits. So after and before the flyer dies you have a scout squad with T7 and 2+cover saves. That has precision shot with a lascannon....

Chancetragedy wrote:
The Icarus las cannon you can attach to the aegis. It's a lascannon with double range basically. And telion gives it precision shot,it hits on a 2 but you reroll a 1 and on a 6 it hits. So after and before the flyer dies you have a scout squad with T7 and 2+cover saves. That has precision shot with a lascannon....

How do the scouts get T7? I know the cloaks and the 2+ but T7? The Icaus placement gun has T7 but when shooting at the scouts, it doesn't replace them does it? I looked through those sections of the rulebook but can't find it.

Nice clever idea but it's 225 points to get that 2+ cover save and Icarus at BS6 idea. Pretty expensive :(


I guess as far as "cost effectiveness" the Storm Talon or Allies may just be the route we need to take to get decent anti-flyer. I already have 3x Rifle Dreads but that is still not enough and they also function as anti-light/mid AV transports so their role may sometimes be tied up in something else. Man I wish the Storm Talon was maybe 10 or so points cheaper and HP3...

Because artillery rules state that members of the squad operating the gun gain the toughness of the gun. It's the same reason a techmarine gains T7 while he's operating the cannon.

The Aegis guns are not artillery, they're emplaced guns.

So by majority toughness they'd be T4 with any meq on them, so are you sure? Can you give me a page number? Not being argumentative. But I'd like to know if I'm playing it wrong haha.

Emplacements do not count as part of the unit like artillery or another model.

They're their own separate model, their own separate unit if you will that is part of neither army. A model in base contact may fire the gun, but that does not make it part of the unit. The unit manning the gun and the gun itself are separate and must be targeted separately.

I've made a good habit of shooting quad guns off the table with some splinter cannon fire on the first turn to make sure it doesn't threaten my skimmers.

Ha, in that case I've been getting gypped. I've been shooting at a unit on a quad gun using those rules. Ie closest to furthest dying. Not realizing I can just target the gun. Where is a stat line for an emplaced weapon then? And the rules to how a squad works that is operating it? I looked at page 96 and it says nothing about anything useful for this? All I can find is artillery rules?

I said before and now again: Quadgun + tankhunter= fun

I just want to say thank you to the OP for asking all of these questions. This thread has been very helpful.

So lets talk about favorite tactics with your marines? I find real succes by overflowing a flank and cutting off line of sight and such. Now with vehicle movement the way it is, you can get better vehicle cover(terrain dependant). Then you pop out and get your shots. A few of my opponents are subtly mobile but mostly static so this tactic seems to take them a bit by surprise. I also find for marines staying means dead.


Also lets what are some good ways to run vanguard and assault marines in the marine codex? I want to run a few JP marines without paying BA Allie tax.

RE: assault/vanguard marins. Err, yeah dont.

MUUCCCH better getting BA since ur "tax" is...assault marines, exactly what you wanted to add. Furthermore you can add some sang priests to your BA to give ur assault marines FNP and thus a LOT more survivability. You also get acess to death company who are pretty amazing. (FNP, rage? and a few other goodies amke them terrors)

vanilla SM assault marines are pretty bad in comparison

I'd say the only viable way to use jump pack marines in a vanila list is in a maximum size squad with miniumum wargear, not sure if the PF is even worth it anymore as a sgt with PF will lose the challenge with any half decent CC character. Attach a chaplain and you get some 30 odd attacks with re-rolls to hit if you make the charge 11 I10 HoR attacks, for a mobile fearless counter assault unit that can be used to tarpit stuff you don't want assaulting your gunline.

Vanguard vets are just too expensive especially when you start gearing them enough to actually be effective at their role.

Yah I had been running a small 6 man assault squad with Flamer, and power sword/SS. For like 170 they seemed ok. The storm shield helped immensely in keeping them alive enough to tie stuff up quickly and do a little damage. Was not impressed overall though. And vanguard are stupid expensive. Why do they have to buy their jump packs? That seems so asinine... Idk the one time I ran them in 5th I hit my heroic intervention and wiped a squad of sang guard with like 16ish power weapon attacks haha so that was awesome. But the proce seems way prohibitively expensive. And the AP change thing killed that for me.

And the reason I dot wanna take them as allies is I don't wanna pay for an hq. I want one smallish squad of them to jump around and cause havoc haha.

Chancetragedy wrote:
Yah I had been running a small 6 man assault squad with Flamer, and power sword/SS. For like 170 they seemed ok. The storm shield helped immensely in keeping them alive enough to tie stuff up quickly and do a little damage. Was not impressed overall though. And vanguard are stupid expensive. Why do they have to buy their jump packs? That seems so asinine... Idk the one time I ran them in 5th I hit my heroic intervention and wiped a squad of sang guard with like 16ish power weapon attacks haha so that was awesome. But the proce seems way prohibitively expensive. And the AP change thing killed that for me.

And the reason I dot wanna take them as allies is I don't wanna pay for an hq. I want one smallish squad of them to jump around and cause havoc haha.

For 170 you can get 3 bikes with 2 meltguns, a combi-melta(or 2 PGs) and an attack bike with a multimelta, of the 2 I know which is likely to be more effective 9 times out of 10.

Assault marines are still overpriced.

I used to love my Assault Marines with a jump chaplain (Not a dead tactic I'd argue, but certainly better for BA now), now they see the shelf in favor of things like Sternguard or Terminators. But the speed is still fun to play, despite the ineffectiveness.

Another some times forgotten point on the humble rhino. When being used as mobile cover it can act as an "11th" member of the squad during shooting. A lot players seem to forget that it does come stock with a storm bolter and that + 10 points gives it a pintle mount storm bolter for effectively 2 storm bolters in shooting.

While you would not take the rhino as a main tank, it does still add to your total shooty and the upgrade can be a good thing if you have left over points.

From a real world cost perspective don't buy rhinos, buy Razorback or Whirlwind kits that way you get the choice of 2 tanks for the price of one.

Haha rhinos and pods both. And pods can even snap fire their storm bolters the turn they drop!!!! I love those stock storm bolters. Mega useful as I've seen them kill things all the time!! Excellent point sir.

And mike712 I completely agree those are more useful. Sometimes you just wanna use models you have though haha. And I find when people see your running assault marines out of the vanilla book. they aren't sure what your gonna do with them and i found it let my little squad run amok and clean things up as I shot them.

What is the typical amount of anti-flyer you guys use for your C:SM? I'm talking about medium-great reliability. No single MM or LC responses please Things with TL/Skyfire etc.

I'm thinking of:
3x TL Rifle Dreads
2x Stormtalons Gunships (REALLY don't want to use these as they are quite overcosted and have are extremely fragile. Experience of them surviving torrents of fire for 5+ turns aside, mathhammer shows that 3x rifle dreads can reliably take 1x out a turn. A psyrifle dread can take possible 2x out a turn...however if it's really one of our only reliable choices then I'll have to bite the bullet)

If there are any other suggestions that are cost effective I'd like some advice. Trying to iron out my list for an upcoming tournament and it keeps coming up short on anit-flyer firepower.

What allies provide the best assistance for this? Thinking maybe IG and a Vendetta? BA and a Stormraven? Ignore them? I feel it's hard to ignore them because those lists that bring 5+ will really be hard to deal with but IF this is a reliable tactic and someone could shed some light on it that'd be great.

Note: Aegis Defense Line is not a good answer because of the way terrain is placed. I know its a real WAAC dick thing to do but some people WILL place a giant mountain smack dab in the front of my Quad-Gun/Icarus so it has no LOS whatsoever...

Take some Thunderfire cannons. They are great.

syypher wrote:
What is the typical amount of anti-flyer you guys use for your C:SM? I'm talking about medium-great reliability. No single MM or LC responses please Things with TL/Skyfire etc.

I'm thinking of:
3x TL Rifle Dreads
2x Stormtalons Gunships (REALLY don't want to use these as they are quite overcosted and have are extremely fragile. Experience of them surviving torrents of fire for 5+ turns aside, mathhammer shows that 3x rifle dreads can reliably take 1x out a turn. A psyrifle dread can take possible 2x out a turn...however if it's really one of our only reliable choices then I'll have to bite the bullet)

If there are any other suggestions that are cost effective I'd like some advice. Trying to iron out my list for an upcoming tournament and it keeps coming up short on anit-flyer firepower.

What allies provide the best assistance for this? Thinking maybe IG and a Vendetta? BA and a Stormraven? Ignore them? I feel it's hard to ignore them because those lists that bring 5+ will really be hard to deal with but IF this is a reliable tactic and someone could shed some light on it that'd be great.

Note: Aegis Defense Line is not a good answer because of the way terrain is placed. I know its a real WAAC dick thing to do but some people WILL place a giant mountain smack dab in the front of my Quad-Gun/Icarus so it has no LOS whatsoever...

I tend to just ignore flyers, 1-2 can simply be ignored, if you're up against a flyer spam list there's nothing you can do within the vanilla codex to counter them all anyway, any counters you do take will be taken out immediately.

The stormtalon is the worst flyer point for point in my opinion, there's no way I'd include one in my list, it's a gakky model too and I don't pay almost £30 for a gak model.

1 AA emplacement will do nothing against multiple flyers, and you're right they can be countered with terrain too.

My counter to flyer spam is decline games against them, this means not playing in major tournaments where flyer spam is likely to happen as I don't feel like investing in an entirely new list/different army. My army mostly dates back to 3rd/4th edition, I've always played roughly the same sort of list, tac squads with transport, sniper scouts, dreads and termies with some bikes and it has always been somewhat competitive against pretty much everything and I don't intend to change that just becase GW with their money grabbing ways introduce flyers for which their shiny new and expensive models are the only counter, screw that.

There is no highly available and effective counter to flyer spam other than your own flyer spam, chaos flakk missiles, guard with hydra AA tanks, forge world stuff(not aloud in some tournaments) or if you're orks/nids where weight of fire negates the effect of snap fire.

I'll choose my games for now and wait for flakk missiles in the next codex, I have plenty of marines with launchers.

In cases where forge world is legal to use this is your best option http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Dreadnoughts/CONTEMPTOR_PATTERN_DREADNOUGHT_BODY.html it's a beautiful model, not overly expensive to buy and has skyfire.

AA is definitely a tough one for us. The Talon is, in fact, quite well costed and balanced, especially compared to most of the FW flyers/doom scythe/raven. (dunno as much about the ork flyers but i believe it's relativly comparable)

The problem is that compared to the vendetta and night scythe it's... less than ideal. Given that those 2 flyers are the bulk of what constitute flyerspam this is an issue. The non FW answer is to get an IG ally and get vendettas. Veterans are dirt cheap as is the leader, so you can make a pretty solid little IG ally for cheap and just put most of them behind an aegis line with quad gun. That with a detta or 2 should cover all AA needs and give more needed lascannon firepower.


If, on the other hand, you DO allow FW thennnn our options become a lot more interesting.

First is the hyperios defense platform, 35 points a pop, takes an FA slot, twin linked missile shot with interceptor/skyfire. VERY handy and very very good (compares to the sabre for IG which, admittedly, is better and undercosted but still, meh, damn thing really should be 65). That + the contemptor dreadnought already mentioned (dont leave home without kheres assault cannons. they're amazing amazing things) gives a very solid (albiet static) AA base which should be able to handle flyerspam reasonably well and sans allies or talon.

Notes about the Mortis Contemptor dreadnought: 180 with 2 of the kheres assault cannons (6 shots instead of 4), BS 5, Front Armour 13, 5++ save vs ranged. Can also give it a 2 str 8 ap 3 missile shots (though honestly i just get another platform instead, i dont like all my AA in ONE guy, though i do lose another missile shot). More importantly though he is bs 5 and has skyfire/interceptor when standing still, so he makes a great candidate to put on a icarus lascannon. Sure you give potentially give up one of your AC shots if you fire it, but it mitigates the range issue of the cannons and you can use them instead of anything gets close ( I try to have a squad also in BTB with the icarus so i can choose who fires it).

I'm looking for this role to be the Storm Eagle over Storm Talon (maybe throw in that contemptor dread now that you mention it. Thanks guys!): Storm Eagle has 13 FA, 12 SA, 11 RA, and 4 hull points; the model itself is also bigger which means more transport ability; and better overall weapons means that this is basically 2 Storm Talons in one Storm Eagle(in points and cost), not to mention its more durable, so you might actually have it by turn 2.

I want this flyer so badly, 6th edition makes these so appealing that it would hurt me not to have one. My army was partly trashed by a heldrake that I couldn't shoot down, because it killed my devastators and I rolled badly on my las pred. Having a flyer would make my army much better, and this would be true for more armies than not.

I think one of the best allies Vanilla Marines can take is Dark Angels led by Belial. Two squads of scoring terminators with TH's and CML's.

I myself have been thinking of using the badab war seige list I dont know the points, but my wish list is:

x1 siege master w/ relic blade and plasma pistol

x1 Mortis Contemptor dreadnaught

x1 siege mantel tactical squad in an land raider Achilles
x3 tactical squads w/ all bolters in rhinos
x1 Siege breaker assault squad in maybe a rhino or land raider

x1 stormtalon

x1 squadron of 2 Vindicators, both with stormbolters
x1 squadron of 2 predators, one with Lascannon sponsors and autocannon and the other with HB sponsors and TLLC
x1 squadron of Thunderfire cannons

Aegis defesne line w/ quadgun


This is something i am drooling over


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Add-on: I know about the siege objective, so I think I may have to build a list to go get it.

No one has any experience with this list, dont they?

I don't have much experience with anything imperial armor. Sorry. Except a few apoc things lik contemptors and bane blades and assault drills.

Largo39 wrote:

Notes about the Mortis Contemptor dreadnought: 180 with 2 of the kheres assault cannons (6 shots instead of 4), BS 5, Front Armour 13, 5++ save vs ranged. Can also give it a 2 str 8 ap 3 missile shots (though honestly i just get another platform instead, i dont like all my AA in ONE guy, though i do lose another missile shot). More importantly though he is bs 5 and has skyfire/interceptor when standing still, so he makes a great candidate to put on a icarus lascannon. Sure you give potentially give up one of your AC shots if you fire it, but it mitigates the range issue of the cannons and you can use them instead of anything gets close ( I try to have a squad also in BTB with the icarus so i can choose who fires it).

Mortis Contemptors don't have interceptor, just skyfire.

Mike712 wrote:

Largo39 wrote:

Notes about the Mortis Contemptor dreadnought: 180 with 2 of the kheres assault cannons (6 shots instead of 4), BS 5, Front Armour 13, 5++ save vs ranged. Can also give it a 2 str 8 ap 3 missile shots (though honestly i just get another platform instead, i dont like all my AA in ONE guy, though i do lose another missile shot). More importantly though he is bs 5 and has skyfire/interceptor when standing still, so he makes a great candidate to put on a icarus lascannon. Sure you give potentially give up one of your AC shots if you fire it, but it mitigates the range issue of the cannons and you can use them instead of anything gets close ( I try to have a squad also in BTB with the icarus so i can choose who fires it).

Mortis Contemptors don't have interceptor, just skyfire.

Incorrect, check its latest entry in imperial armor aeronautica. You will find it has both skyfire and interceptor.

 Doomhunter wrote:

Mike712 wrote:

Largo39 wrote:

Notes about the Mortis Contemptor dreadnought: 180 with 2 of the kheres assault cannons (6 shots instead of 4), BS 5, Front Armour 13, 5++ save vs ranged. Can also give it a 2 str 8 ap 3 missile shots (though honestly i just get another platform instead, i dont like all my AA in ONE guy, though i do lose another missile shot). More importantly though he is bs 5 and has skyfire/interceptor when standing still, so he makes a great candidate to put on a icarus lascannon. Sure you give potentially give up one of your AC shots if you fire it, but it mitigates the range issue of the cannons and you can use them instead of anything gets close ( I try to have a squad also in BTB with the icarus so i can choose who fires it).

Mortis Contemptors don't have interceptor, just skyfire.

Incorrect, check its latest entry in imperial armor aeronautica. You will find it has both skyfire and interceptor.

Does the AA mount rule from that book translate to standard 40k?

Edit: No Need to answer, found out myself, I have 2 already on order from FW, with weapon options and magnets from ebay, can't wait to try them out!

Is the mortis a H/S choice?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Is the mortis a H/S choice?

Yes.

Do you know if the siege list can squadron them?

I have a wicked idea

Mortis Contemptors + Strom Eagle=bye bye flyers(imho)

What do you guys think of this? I'll take a storm eagle over 2 storm talons any day. But whats your opinions?

a storm eagle seems to me to be a stormRaven w/o as much options

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
a storm eagle seems to me to be a stormRaven w/o as much options

For what it's worth the storm eagle is a 10 times nicer model than either the talon or raven.

it's all in the eyes of the beholder. I rather like the stormtalon myself, but I'm not as fond of the raven (or the thunderhawk, for that matter, though I know it's heresy to admit that)

Mike712 wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
a storm eagle seems to me to be a stormRaven w/o as much options

For what it's worth the storm eagle is a 10 times nicer model than either the talon or raven.

That is true I like the storm egal myself, too, just saying it seems to have less options. But what would you want more...

The stormEagle
or
the Castius assault ram?

I keep hearing how folks don't like to allow FW rules and that many tournaments don't allow them either, which makes me sad. FW has a lot of great models that I'd love to have, but not if they're just going to sit on my shelf most of the time... :(

 varl wrote:
I keep hearing how folks don't like to allow FW rules and that many tournaments don't allow them either, which makes me sad. FW has a lot of great models that I'd love to have, but not if they're just going to sit on my shelf most of the time... :(

You ask before hand with the person you play before hand if FW is okay. I myself a fun game against some forge world models. I will never forget that Iron Warrior army that used a contempter dreadnaught and two decimater walkers.

on the flip side... Blight drones they made my marines cry.

And I rather not have the FW discussion in my thread atm. look through General disscusions for that stuff please

... Ok, back on topic.

Devastator Squads and Assault Squads: they are two often overlooked choices of the FOC chart, and this is unfortunate. They are a Fast and Heavy version of our beloved Tactical Marine, one outfitted with heavy weapons to "devastate" the opponent's infantry or vehicles, the other far faster and maneuverable, capable of cutting off an enemy's advance or storming an enemy strong point.

These guys get a bad rep in the modern world of Heavy Tank spam, Storm Talons and Land Speeders; however they still can serve a vital role in the army, especially now that vehicles are a tad more fragile in 6th edition. I'm interested to know everyone's takes on builds, tactics, and uses for the lowly Devastator Squads and Assault Squads.

 evildrspock wrote:

They are a Fast and Heavy version of our beloved Tactical Marine

And therein lies the problem. Tactical squads are already over-costed and perform poorly (but they score which means you need plenty of them, unless you're running a bikes or pedro/sternguard list) then you pay extra points on top of that for a small amount of specialisation, devs albeit better than assault squads as long as you keep them cheap 4 MLs for 150pts or heavy bolters which are rather situational anti horde weaponary, forget about putting LCs or PCs in a dev squad, the cost just becomes insane.

MLs/HBs/MMs should be 5 points cheaper, PCs should be 5 points cheaper and LCs should be 10 points cheaper for dev squads to bring them to somewhere between where they are now and the horrifically under-costed long fangs of the space wolves.

Assault squads on the other hand should be no more expensive than tac squads with the current options they have available, this would make them properly usable.

My take on Vanilla Taticals

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
1.What can they do well?

Walk up to midfield, bring in enough bolters and resilience to be hard to shift and to force enemies out.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
2.what should they do?

Keep themselves close to the middle of the table, where they can easily remobilize on their rhinos to grab nearby objectives. Deal with enemy infantary by either bolter fire or, rarely, melee combat. Contest objectives. You will probably want cheap allied troops to hold backfield objectives though.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
3.How and when to combat squad

All the time where there isnt a KP objective. Small units bring much less waste of shooting, and while individually they are more vulnerable to melee, The enemy needs 2 sucessful charges to get rid of two units of 5 marines instead of one of 10.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
4. what can combat squads do well?

Exactly the same as what marines do well. Vanilla Marines are not that good in CC in the first place, so they gain very little for being stuck into a big unit instead of two smaller ones.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
5.how to use a rhino

1) Mobility. This was the most important thing in 5th edition, it still is the most important thing in 6th edition. You bring a transport because you want your troops to move somewhere. If it is still alive at the later stages on the game, you can embark again and do a last turn rush into a objective.
2) Mobile Bunker. A Rhino can be used as cover to a marine squad. Either put it between the marines and something you dont want shooting at them, or put the marines inside and have them shoot special weapons when the enemy has stronger anti-infantary than you in that part of the board.
3) Disruption. Tank Shock.
4) Sniping. Block view to a character inside a enemy unit with your rhino, shoot at that unit with your marines and the character cant use his save to absorb the shots.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
6.what should the sergeant have?

I would go with nothing. Or at most a power weapon.

Why?

Vanilla Taticals are not good in melee in the first place. The only things that they can win melee against are things that are atrocious at it in the first place ( IG, Tau). Giving your sergeant a special weapon doesnt change the fact that you do not have enough attacks to handle anything reasonable in melee. Also, he can be challenged away, so you end up using his special weapon against a single guy for a turn, instead of helping eat up bodies of the unit. And frankly, he cannot win many challenges, PW or not. With a PW he can kill most marine sergeants in a challenge, but he has a good chance of biting it even against another naked marine simply because both will strike simultaneously. A Fist will get him killed before he can strike.

My take on Vanilla marines:

They have the ability to TAC - lots of gear and toys but few boys. Even fewer specializations and most success I've had is shooty lists. Other dexes can out assault or outmaneuver our boys in PA so I try to use them like the fluff says. Hit hard and sudden. I'll show a list I like that hasn't won tournaments and go through my mindset and tactics.

Epi Librarian
roll for telepathy or dex - puppet master or invisibility is incredible. Standard powers of avenger/GOI or null/your choice also makes a big difference in where you place him
pros - classic leader that's better point for point than the captain.
con - playstyle may have him backseat to a SC or bike Capt for fast troops

troops - I take one squad for every 500 points. We'll use 1500 to avoid dbl FOC lists/counters

1- flamer/combi flamer/ML in a RB. Allows the Libby to use telepath powers and ride with someone. Also lets the sarge help template something that NEEDS to die
2 - plasma/combiplasma/ PC or LC. Take down light-medium transports and fry terminators. I sometimes give a rhino or the RB to them. Mostly they sit on an objective and use the 36-48" guns.
3 - melta/combimelta/ MM in DP. Come down second to score/contest late game. If they come in earlier than it can still pop a rear action tank or other troublemaker.

Dread or IC in a DP - this is what comes down first and meltas the side or rear of a tank. I prefer the IC because it can assault or mess up the enemy tactics/shooting priority. And anything that eats up ML/LCs at it isn't shooting at anyone else

Rifledread - 4tl shoots at flyers? yes please. light and medium transports? again yes. All the wonders of range, armor, and in a pinch can assault at str 6 oh yes. I park him by an objective or march him behind the rhino/RB for cover.

Stormtalon with typhoon - come in for support and if things get hot zoom off. I find it a strong counter to enemy DPs, a good flanker with its range and of course some anti air help.

Vindicator with siege shield and storm bolter- av13 with 30" no mans land and ordnance and can kill terminators/bikers/deny FNP. I park it in terrain and plow forward with impunity. Also the extra weapon is almost mandatory with random weapon destroy results.

Thunderfire cannon - techmarine can help sit on an objective and boost the cover to his battle brothers. T7, 4 blasts and can ignore cover or mess with skimmers. The s6 blast helps with tougher things and can glance weak transports. Just remember to place the marine BEHIND the gun or you risk losing it to mass fire.

So you can tell from the list I have forward elements, disruption elements, capture objectives, target saturation, a variety of units so no opponent can call cheese and with combat tactics I can pull back after the enemy assault phase and shoot them up point blank. At least I find it better to be assaulted and run then to engage in assault itself. Unless it's necrons, or orks. I believe math says the ork needs twice as many bodies to bring down marines and then it comes down to volume of fire before they can get to you. I can place the libby with the RB and combat squad or put him in the DP with the melta squad for added strength.

Also, I usually roll on Strategic warlord traits or personal for some FNP/scoring fun.

My builds for assault squads are always cheaper and built to sort of annoy an opponent. I run 7 or 8 AM's with a Flamer, and Psword/SS sergeant. This squad is small enough to take full advantage of cover while still being able to take a few casualties before becoming ineffective. They then hop around the board as a non serious threat. Most of the time they don't even get shot till they are extremely close as I make sure there are bigger targets that need to be dealt with. And if they do get killed its cool because at that point my vindicators or terminators are on top of you waiting to smash the opponent. They are also surprisingly good at crushing tanks now that they have grenades hitting on 3's at worst.

When I've run devs it's always been at full str with missiles or plas and 1 lascannon. This way you can combat squad them and fire on 2 targets or focus 1 target down. And you also have a few ablative wounds for soaking up fire. I know it's expensive but when I run them as 5 man units they die too quickly.

How do you guys equip your tacticals squads that are moving forward to midfield/taking your opponents objectives? I know our tacticals are not the best in CC compared to the other MEQ troop choices... (Assault squads, GHs, GKSS, DA Termies, etc.) We don't really want to get into CC with those other MEQ equivalent troop choices.

For now I'm doing:
10x Tacticals: MM, MG, C-MG, Rhino

I deploy out the MG/C-MG half out and move forward shooting AV until I need to clear objectives then I fire on them with the same squad. Guys inside the Rhino act as a turret usually.


Since you have to move into midfield and your opponents DZ to take objectives I feel we need allies that are better at this to compete. Bolter fire +1 Special isn't going to shoot as much off as we'd want to remove them. It'll help with one of our weaknesses of having our troops not so stellar in CC as well as other weaknesses in our Codex. Like a Rune Priest helping with anti-Psyker powers and a BA Libby providing us with a 5+ cover across our vehicles.

My melta bomb tactical is melta, MM, C-melta, serg with melta bombs. My "normal" tacticals are usually just melta/plasma, ML/plasma, melta bombs, power sword. I try to have some semblance of duality and such with these squads because without they're fairly useless. And you never know when that lone melta in a tac squad is going to ruin a tank that's pushing hard at you.

Ya..but I still think we need allies to jump on to whatever our opponents have in their DZ. Don't you guys think? What do you normally do to contest or take your opp. objectives? I've been thinking of a footsquad of Assault all TH/SS termies just to march forward, absorb fire, and get into CC to contest something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe a foot squad of 10? And I can combat squad them as needed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also to "build around" my Terminators... what are good support models for them?

Rhino rush a squad or two for taking objectives, turbo boost bikes, deepstrike Assault Marines, Terminators, or Drop Pod in some Sternguard or an Ironclad Dreadnaught. These all tend to be decent backfield contesting strategies. You certainly don't have to ally another army to do this!

 evildrspock wrote:
Rhino rush a squad or two for taking objectives, turbo boost bikes, deepstrike Assault Marines, Terminators, or Drop Pod in some Sternguard or an Ironclad Dreadnaught. These all tend to be decent backfield contesting strategies. You certainly don't have to ally another army to do this!

Yay for the Terminator answer! Been wanting to use some TH/SS Terminators for running up to my opponents backfield and contesting/clearing objectives. And taking care of high AV/MCs on the way. Was talking to some guys about this yesterday and never really thought of just running them on foot until they brought it up. I'm so use to thinking that LRs were a "must have" for any Assault Terminators. I think this would be an awesome idea though just to have as a sponge for fire as well as all the other things Assault Termies bring.

syypher wrote:

 evildrspock wrote:
Rhino rush a squad or two for taking objectives, turbo boost bikes, deepstrike Assault Marines, Terminators, or Drop Pod in some Sternguard or an Ironclad Dreadnaught. These all tend to be decent backfield contesting strategies. You certainly don't have to ally another army to do this!

Yay for the Terminator answer! Been wanting to use some TH/SS Terminators for running up to my opponents backfield and contesting/clearing objectives. And taking care of high AV/MCs on the way. Was talking to some guys about this yesterday and never really thought of just running them on foot until they brought it up. I'm so use to thinking that LRs were a "must have" for any Assault Terminators. I think this would be an awesome idea though just to have as a sponge for fire as well as all the other things Assault Termies bring.

All good until a PC shot does away with most of the squad. Should probably have some armor protecting them, or just deep strike them in. Not as risky, especially if you want to draw alot of fire. That what land raiders are for, and why they have AV14 all around.

***Deepstrike***
I really think one or two Terminator Squads, with a Heavy Flamer or Assault Cannon, can be a good, relatively inexpensive backfield deepstriker. Probably best not to leave them alone, although they are enough of a fear/threat to most opponents it can draw considerable forces from where they really should be focusing - the rest of your army advancing forward. Land Raiders are nice for having them on the board, but kind of unnecessary @ 250 points, I'd rather just have more terminators to soak hits. I mean, that's what 2+/5++ is for, or even 2+/3++.

Alternatively, walking a 10 man squad with 2 cyclone missile launchers has great anti infantry or anti light vehicle capability, and draw tons of fire from the rest of the army. Its not a bad tactic to build an entire army around, especially if you throw a nice force multiplier in there like Captain Lysander to soak hits and give bolter drill.

quick question: what is better for assault marines/ terminators, a Land raider redeemer or crusader? (not counting transport capacity)

I did a search and found several threads about the Stormtalon and the impression I get is that it's average in what it does.

I want to like it and I only have one game with them.

I run bikers and I replaced 2 units of 3 Multi-Melta bikers to get 2 Stormtalons into my lists at the 1500 level.
My first game with them, they didn't do a whole lot... but mostly because of my poor target selection.

My first talon comes in and shoots at Obliterators. I didn't get any rends, but I get a lucky wound.
Second round, second talon comes in and shoots the Obliterators again to no avail, the other Talon kills some Cultists. Then one Talon flies off the board (setting up to come back in on turn 5) while the other kills some cultists (who are on an objective) again.

I think the flier rules are cool and able to fly off the board to set up a new strafing run is great.
The positioning does take some thought beforehand...but I guess my main gripe is... I'm not a huge Assault Cannon fan.

I have the Talons in a sort of anti-flyer role, maybe I'm over reacting. What do you guys think?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
quick question: what is better for assault marines/ terminators, a Land raider redeemer or crusader? (not counting transport capacity)

Crusader doesn't get as close to the enemy in order to be effective, which takes the melta rule out of the equation, and you can still assault with either unit. Redeemers w/ their flamers can get close enough for a suicide melta to take it out, which would waste the investment and points put into it. Both of the sponson weapons are effective against hordes(take your pick: 3 TL bolters per sponson, or a big heavy flamer per sponson), so it depends on if you want to get close, or really close(maybe too close).

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
quick question: what is better for assault marines/ terminators, a Land raider redeemer or crusader? (not counting transport capacity)

Honestly, if I could go back in time and change the weapons on my Crusader, i'd make it a redeemer in a heartbeat.

two S6 AP3 Flamers? Count me in. Move 6", PotM spirit two different targets with flamers. Snapfire the Assault Cannon at whatever your primary target was.

Hurricane Bolters are garbage now that they got rid of Defensive Weapons being able to fire as much as you want.

EDIT: And for the same points as a Crusader, you can put a Multi Melta on top.

I played about 40ish games of 40k with a redeemer in my army. I got to fire both templates at the same time twice(once it hit 2 whole models, the other it annihalated 12 marines total from 2 different squads)... I'd rather move 12" and fire an assault cannon, and then snap fire everything else. Or move 6", disembark 7 termies and a libby or lysander 6", and fire everything.

Statistically speaking the chances of firing both at viable targets is low I would think. Where as the crusader is always dumping wounds from 24" and under(not including movement). I will say though, hitting 8 marines that just had their transport blow up is fun haha.

One template will be enough I think.

Yah it definately could be. I just like to stay at exact range because it increases chances you don't get into whatever range your opponent wants to be in, and hopefully I get an extra round or two to shoot you before knocking you on the noggin with hammers.

Crusaders can dish out lots of dakka and do so at a longer ranges than redeemers, so less chances of marines in a transport being under a template after a shooting phase.

 Sanctjud wrote:
I did a search and found several threads about the Stormtalon and the impression I get is that it's average in what it does.

I want to like it and I only have one game with them.

I run bikers and I replaced 2 units of 3 Multi-Melta bikers to get 2 Stormtalons into my lists at the 1500 level.
My first game with them, they didn't do a whole lot... but mostly because of my poor target selection.

My first talon comes in and shoots at Obliterators. I didn't get any rends, but I get a lucky wound.
Second round, second talon comes in and shoots the Obliterators again to no avail, the other Talon kills some Cultists. Then one Talon flies off the board (setting up to come back in on turn 5) while the other kills some cultists (who are on an objective) again.

I think the flier rules are cool and able to fly off the board to set up a new strafing run is great.
The positioning does take some thought beforehand...but I guess my main gripe is... I'm not a huge Assault Cannon fan.

I have the Talons in a sort of anti-flyer role, maybe I'm over reacting. What do you guys think?

Ya, from what I've learned...Storm Talons are pretty much garbage. 2x Rifle Dreads reliably (math hammer) take out 1-2 Storm Talons a turn. AV11, 2HP for their cost is ridiculous. Other things you can take in the FA slot are much better. Most people will say, don't compare them to the Necrons or IG's flyers because they are undercosted...well guess what, you will be playing against those undercosted spammable flyers...you need to not sink points into a flyer that costs more (with a decent weapon) and take other things to help "combat" the flyers.

Yes they are flyers, yes they are one of our only "reliable" anti-flyer vehicles. One firing Typhoon + Assault Cannons doesn't even statistically reliably take out an AV11 necron flyer a turn.

Honestly if your that worried about flyers then just take more or allies that handle it better or just take more bodies and push forward to limit their shooting. If they only have 2 flyers don't worry about them much. If they spam 5+ then hopefully you can weather the storm with bodies because taking 5+ flyers also AND getting to go second is the best chance you'll have against them.

Read the 2nd or 3rd to last page on the GK tactica thread. Someone breaks it down much better than I did in there.

Stormtalons are great for distraction and annoyance.

Storm Talons, like any flyer, can draw lots of firepower and screw with your opponent's plans, so in this sense they are an excellent fast attack with drawing fire away from the rest of the army. They carry a decent loadout of firepower to boot - my favorite variant is the Skyhammer Missles upgrade - 3 S7 @ 60"!

 evildrspock wrote:
Storm Talons, like any flyer, can draw lots of firepower and screw with your opponent's plans, so in this sense they are an excellent fast attack with drawing fire away from the rest of the army. They carry a decent loadout of firepower to boot - my favorite variant is the Skyhammer Missles upgrade - 3 S7 @ 60"!

When they do draw that fire power, they won't survive that shooting phase. 2HP and AV 11s just sounds really pathetic, compared to an IG transport/gunship. I'm not going to use the ST any time soon, any flyer i'll use would be the Storm Eagle, AV 12s, 3/4 HPs and a higher transport capacity sounds good to me.

I'm thinking of useing the Assault ram myself, as it is AV 13, has a Template melta-gun and can just ram things outof the sky

I love the rules for the caestus. If I had the money I'd buy one and use it all the time. Hello 10 terminator transport!!!!

I could probably fit my whole HQ + FA sections in a caestus and drop them right behind the enemy while my gunline drops pot shot from afar, on top of that Deep striking temies. That sounds like a pretty awesome build, but i'd have to sacrifice my libby and my bike squad to slip it in.

I would say it is worth it for objective clearing

Why take a Caestus when you can take a Spartan?

Sweet, Sweet, immune to melta, 5 HP, AV14 transport.

That can take 25 models at a time...

mmmm. 10 termies and 2 HQs smashing into someones lines.

 Sanctjud wrote:
I did a search and found several threads about the Stormtalon and the impression I get is that it's average in what it does.

I want to like it and I only have one game with them.

I run bikers and I replaced 2 units of 3 Multi-Melta bikers to get 2 Stormtalons into my lists at the 1500 level.
My first game with them, they didn't do a whole lot... but mostly because of my poor target selection.

My first talon comes in and shoots at Obliterators. I didn't get any rends, but I get a lucky wound.
Second round, second talon comes in and shoots the Obliterators again to no avail, the other Talon kills some Cultists. Then one Talon flies off the board (setting up to come back in on turn 5) while the other kills some cultists (who are on an objective) again.

I think the flier rules are cool and able to fly off the board to set up a new strafing run is great.
The positioning does take some thought beforehand...but I guess my main gripe is... I'm not a huge Assault Cannon fan.

I have the Talons in a sort of anti-flyer role, maybe I'm over reacting. What do you guys think?

Give them another go Sanct. Had that drake been on to tear up you would probably feel differently.

I think Storm Talons are actually worth it - their playstyle takes some learning to get used to, that's for sure, but I've had them be quite effective in hunting down MC's (or FMC's), due to their high volume S6+ shots. Plus, it wouldn't be a bad bet to chase after the helldrake with.

And personally, having an assault cannon stock is AWESOME. That gun can kill a land Raider - I'd take 2 If I could.

Crazyterran wrote:
Why take a Caestus when you can take a Spartan?

Sweet, Sweet, immune to melta, 5 HP, AV14 transport.

That can take 25 models at a time...

mmmm. 10 termies and 2 HQs smashing into someones lines.

The caestus has a melta cannon, ceramite as well, 20 capacity, an invuln save to shooting, and moves faster. Although having 10 termies, vulkan, and Lysander all together coming out of a spartan seems really funzies.

see this is why i like Space wolves as they are effective at all aspects as gun troops melee or even tank hunting and i think (been a while since i read the SM codex) that space wolf grey hunters have access to more special wargear

....Alright!

anyone have any tactics to defeat the space puppies?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
....Alright!

anyone have any tactics to defeat the space puppies?

Kill the Longfangs.

Drop pods?

Drop pods and stern guard absolutely ruin long fangs. Thanks to only having 5-6 models total per unit, you can basically wipe an entire squad the turn you drop. Then depending on cover line of sight and other factors hopefully kill a second squad the following turn. Once they lose these fire bases it's pretty easy to wipe the wolves. As GH are just tactical marines +1 in the war gear dept. also add vindi's as well because with the changes to cover, night fighting, and HP's they can actually get close enough to do stuff.

So one teach me more about telion, I want to use him I heard of a combo using him with some fortification.

Non-named HQ choices?

The Libby is always a great standard choice since Null Zone is still helpful but is he the "go to" HQ now when taking mech? Or do you guys like the MoF with scoring scout body guards? MoF with Beamer won't be worth it IMO unless you got those scout bodies. As well as taking additional dreads that he offers. Is the standard go to HQ still the Libby then?

What are yalls thoughts and opinions on this? I honestly like the Libby because of the not needing to dedicate 75 pts for a body guard as well as the 20 pts for the beamer. But MoF occasionally if I need more dreads.

 CKO wrote:
So one teach me more about telion, I want to use him I heard of a combo using him with some fortification.

It's hard to go wrong with a small unit of sniper scouts and telion behind an ADL with a quad gun or Icarus LC either of which he'll fire as his BS6! If there's no flyers on the table use his precision fire to headshot characters in squads, last game I used him he took out 2 tooled up sorcerers my opponent was unimpressed to say the least.

Unfortunately, rarely to any lists need more dreadnoughts, as Dreadnoughts just aren't that shiny anymore. I have 3, I love the little buggers, but they're just really not that good anymore, they pop really easily. I used to like the close up variants. I still take them sometimes, but whatever.

I still think a 2000 pt dual force org. chart with 2 MoF & 12 Dreadnoughts would be funny.

 evildrspock wrote:
Unfortunately, rarely to any lists need more dreadnoughts, as Dreadnoughts just aren't that shiny anymore. I have 3, I love the little buggers, but they're just really not that good anymore, they pop really easily. I used to like the close up variants. I still take them sometimes, but whatever.

I still think a 2000 pt dual force org. chart with 2 MoF & 12 Dreadnoughts would be funny.

W/ all drop pods

Non-named HQ choices?

The Libby is always a great standard choice since Null Zone is still helpful but is he the "go to" HQ now when taking mech? Or do you guys like the MoF with scoring scout body guards? MoF with Beamer won't be worth it IMO unless you got those scout bodies. As well as taking additional dreads that he offers. Is the standard go to HQ still the Libby then?

What are yalls thoughts and opinions on this? I honestly like the Libby because of the not needing to dedicate 75 pts for a body guard as well as the 20 pts for the beamer. But MoF occasionally if I need more dreads.

syypher wrote:
Non-named HQ choices?

The Libby is always a great standard choice since Null Zone is still helpful but is he the "go to" HQ now when taking mech? Or do you guys like the MoF with scoring scout body guards? MoF with Beamer won't be worth it IMO unless you got those scout bodies. As well as taking additional dreads that he offers. Is the standard go to HQ still the Libby then?

What are yalls thoughts and opinions on this? I honestly like the Libby because of the not needing to dedicate 75 pts for a body guard as well as the 20 pts for the beamer. But MoF occasionally if I need more dreads.

Ive always preferred a CM: 2+ armor(artificer), 4++(iron halo=standard), WS6 BS5, and finally a big pie plate to clean up a very valuable unit or kill hordes. He's probably best served attaching to an assault termies to have a good escort, and compliment them in CC.

I could see a chapter master in a gun line, where you aren't going to be moving much. My HQs tend to be moving around a lot, so standing still to orbital strike is not the best.

CMs and captains can be tricked out with whatever gear you want, but don't work well naked. If you are willing to put in the investment, they will be exactly the HQ you want. With a nice command squad as well (that you also can sink points into) Personally I don't think it's really worth it, as like the other HQs better. You need one on a bike for certain lists.

Librarians are the most fragile of the HQs, but work well as a general purpose support character. You will need to get off the powers, which can be tough against certain armies. But they have a lot of potential. And they work very well with minimal equipment.

Chaplains do one thing, but do it very well. Not only are they a choppy beatstick, but they make the rest of their squad better as well. Put one at the front of an assault squad, and he will serve you well. Once again, he works with minimal war gear. Just a jump pack or suit of TDA to match his squad. Although if you are on foot, you should look into Cassius.

MotF are a little more subtle. While they lack the 4++ of chaplains and captains, they do have a 2+ basic. The servo harness comes with an assortment of tools and weapons. Like the bike captain, they change the way you can build your army. Bolstering ruins is a nice boost, while fixing vehicles is a bit of a gimmick IMHO. Not a bad all-around choice.

On non-named HQ choices, the go to choices seem to be either a Captain on a bike, or a Librarian in Terminator Armour. The Captain on a bike allows you to take bikes as troops, which is necessary if you want to make a highly mobile biker list. It is also worth considering if you were planning on including bikes anyways just to make them scoring, even if you include other troops choices. The Terminator Librarian is largely taken because of his powers and durability. Talking to people, the Epistolary upgrade is usually worthwhile so you can take Null Zone and Gate together. I've also seen PA librarians used to supply support to your backfield troops, with either Gate or Force Dome.

The MotF is a good option, but I generally only see him brought when players either want to spam dreadnoughts or they really want the conversion beamer (which IMHO is cool, but from a tactical standpoint over-rated). A nifty trick is that you can take him with a Conversion Beamer and a bike, giving him relentless and allowing him to so that he his in the optimal location before firing it.

Chaplains are good but narrow. They make decent assault units into amazing ones. I've seen them work in Assault Squads, Bike Squads, and both flavour of Terminator squads. However, the general concensus is that Librarians are a bit more useful for your army as a whole, and that unless you are giving your Chaplain Terminator Armour or a Jump Pack, you are better off just taking a 'counts-as' Cassius, considering he is only 25 points more for +2 Toughness (effectively giving him EW), FNP, and a master-crafted combi-flamer (where the bolter is effectively poisoned 2+) IN ADDITION to a Bolt Pistol + Power Maul (unlike other Chaplains, who have to trade out their pistol if they want to upgrade).

what I mostly do with tactical squads, is:
10 man
melta
missile launcher
sargeant with stormbolter
add razorback with either assault cannon or lascannon

I always combat squad them, put four bolters and the missile launcher on a objective in my deployment zone or a nice overview spot, and race the other squad forward in their razorback, while firing ofcourse.

for the sargeant a stormbolter may seem dumb, but because I play shooty, and thend not to go into close combat, I dont want to spend points on that.

most of the times, I use:

libby w stormshield termie armor, null zone and avenger (140 pt)

three tacticals as described above with little variations(3x180-200 pt)

two razorbacks, one lascannon, one assault cannon(2x75 pt)wish I had more of those

and then it depends on what I want to use this day(bikes/dreads/termies/assault marines/thunderfire/scouts) but what I've listed above is my minimal for about every battle.

you might want to go for rhino's, but im no big fan of those tanks, because they lack firepower, and transporting T4 guys seems pretty useless to me, and that's why I'd rather have these nifty 75 pt lascannon platforms, they are cheap, have armor, and even got some transport capacity-when you want, you can run an HQ and some CC focused marines in there-

well, thats my advise, do with it what you want

Temi-librarians are pretty good choices for shooty marines, as gate is a pretty useful mobility tool. Downside to them is still just 2 wounds, so they are very frail.

If you consider the badab books then some other even more appealing options pop up:

Lias Issodon 140pts - gives everyone stealth, bs6, has special ammunition. Only armour 3 though with no invuln, so dont keep him in front but damn will you be tough to take out of cover.

Adeth? 165pts - psychic mastery 2 librarian who gives everyone infiltrate, gives his own squad (as a psychic power) shroud and defensive grenades, modifies reserve rolls.

The psychic mastery 3 librarian - 2+ armour which he can convert to a 2+ invuln, gets ALL libby powers or biomancy powers, so you can give him iron arm and endurance to make him/his squad very tough to deal with. Alternatly he can be the ultimate utility with all our marine powers and gate around everywhere.

RIght now I'm leading towards Issodon mostly because stealth is a pretty big boon for any speeders/bikes we have wandering around (both of which are very common tools i uses, 3 man attack bikes and a dual HF speeder). Losing gate though hurts quite a bit, so it's a tradeoff.

I really don't know where else to put this so it's going into the tactics thread haha. So I played a game last night against a foot guard list at 2k. And my 1 thunderfire cannon killed 88 models in 4 turns. What a ridiculous piece of artillery, and thanks to bolster ruins didn't take a single wound. The guy packed a blob of IG into an aegis line and just got WASTED by the cover ignoring blasts. First I killed his commissar with Telion on a quad gun then got 28 kills turn 1, 23 turn 2 squad was toast. Then 20 turn 3 on another squad, and finally to more or less finish off his second blob squad with 17 turn 4. It was wild and I'm now in love with the thunderfire even more than I already was. Sure against meq it's not superb but against orcs, nids, IG and the like it is beast.

Oh no dont worry he's good against meq too, str 6 means 2+ to wound vs marines, so if they get packed in at all ur looking at 10-15 wounds for them to fail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've even had my TFC glance a dreadnought to death.

oh man, I want a land raider Achilles now.

Yah I am currently converting my second thunderfire into an Achilles for an upcoming apoc game. Should be silly, ceramite, thunderfire, TL melta sponsons? Good LORD!

In the next apoc game I play I'll have an Achilles, a warhound(I built myself) a vindicator siege breaker line, and 3 drop pods full of melta sternguard. I can't wait!

Going back to the TFC and Sternguard discussions on the first page...

The list I'm putting together is planned to use a combi-melta Sternguard squad in a drop pod. The rest of the army is mechanized however, as I'm a bigger fan of mech than Drop Pod Assault lists.

Is it worthwhile adding a TFC with pod, and having that Pod come in Turn 1 (potentially starting with TFC on the board, just the Pod in reserves) so I can hold off the Sternguard?

A better question may be: If you are going to run at least one Drop Pod, is there a minimum to the amount you should run?

Dont do a TFC in a pod. The point of a TFC is long ranged firepower thats difficult to kill (due to ruins bolstering). TFCs fold in CC and is not something that really benefits from being up close and personal (besides, wouldnt the drop pod count as him having moved and so you couldnt fire the first turn due to it being heavy 4?). Stick him in your main lines in some ruins for a 3+ cover save and let your opponent waste fire trying to pick him off.

Instead what you put in that second droppod is just a vanilla dreadnough with heavy flamer and flamer on the DCCW. Now you get 2 flame templates which is a much better way of alpha striking something and if they dont kill the dread you get a good CC guy in their midst too.

Alternatly just go to FW and get a seige dread, str 6 ap 3 flamer. mmm.

You'd be better dropping the Sternguard in on T1 than the pod. The strength of drop-guard is their ability to drop in and destroying a high priority (and high points) target before it gets to do anything. While you can hold off on them, you will usually get better returns on your investment if you cash in on them immediately (to illustrate, if a 5 man Sternguard squad drops in and destroys a Land Raider on turn 1 before it gets to do anything, you'll have effectively negated about 240 points of his list with significantly fewer points and still have 5 men and a pod left over, whereas if you kill that same target with the drop-guard on turn 2 or later, the tank has likely achieved something, reducing your ROI. (I did the math, and statistically speaking 5 Sternguard with combi-meltas have about a 97% chance of getting a vehicle explodes damage result against an AV 14 target if they are able to shoot at it from within 6")). So if you want to drop in a Thunderfire Cannon and Sternguard, I would suggest picking up a third drop pod for a tactical squad so you can drop the Sternguard and the Thunderfire on T1.

Although the more I think about it, aren't you just better off deploying the Thunderfire Cannon on the table without a drop pod? You are basically going to be setting the thing up in cover anyways, since it has an amazing range, so why bother with podding? If you were going all pods, I could see taking a Drop Pod on the TFC as a 'null pod' (a drop pod with nothing in it so that you can either drop or hold back an extra squad on T1), but if you are going mech I'm not sure it would be worth it.

RegalPhantom wrote:
You'd be better dropping the Sternguard in on T1 than the pod. The strength of drop-guard is their ability to drop in and destroying a high priority (and high points) target before it gets to do anything. While you can hold off on them, you will usually get better returns on your investment if you cash in on them immediately (to illustrate, if a 5 man Sternguard squad drops in and destroys a Land Raider on turn 1 before it gets to do anything, you'll have effectively negated about 240 points of his list with significantly fewer points and still have 5 men and a pod left over, whereas if you kill that same target with the drop-guard on turn 2 or later, the tank has likely achieved something, reducing your ROI. (I did the math, and statistically speaking 5 Sternguard with combi-meltas have about a 97% chance of getting a vehicle explodes damage result against an AV 14 target if they are able to shoot at it from within 6")). So if you want to drop in a Thunderfire Cannon and Sternguard, I would suggest picking up a third drop pod for a tactical squad so you can drop the Sternguard and the Thunderfire on T1.

Although the more I think about it, aren't you just better off deploying the Thunderfire Cannon on the table without a drop pod? You are basically going to be setting the thing up in cover anyways, since it has an amazing range, so why bother with podding? If you were going all pods, I could see taking a Drop Pod on the TFC as a 'null pod' (a drop pod with nothing in it so that you can either drop or hold back an extra squad on T1), but if you are going mech I'm not sure it would be worth it.

Thank you, I had been wondering primarily in cases where an opponent reserves his heavy vehicles, but I'm not sure that's going to be a huge problem in the long run.

And yeah, the TFC would likely start on the table, the pod would just be an empty pod in case I run across an army where having the Sternguard come in first turn may not be as efficient (see also: Daemons).

The way I was thinking was like this:

Opponent starts everything on the table: Sternguard come in first turn. Null Pod lands wherever whenever it comes in.
Opponent makes heavy use of reserves: Empty Pod comes in first turn, Sternguard have a better shot of being able to drop and pop on something good.

I always like to have at least 2 pods to do what your describing. It increases your flexibility. And even if you decide to drop the sternguard first you still have that extra pod to block vehicle movement or to create road blocks.

One pod=suicide unit.
Two pods=as above, with something to drop on an objective later in the game.
Three pods has options. You can do two separate suicide drops, or drop them close to each other to actually try to hold the LZ. This is probably the most I'd field in a hybrid list. (as in, some, but not all, drop pods) Past this point I think the first turn punch is not worth the rest of your army coming in piecemeal, unless you are going all-in on a drop pod list.

I'd personally feel a little sleazy dropping empty pods, but by the rules it's legal. Of curse, it's balanced by paying a 35 point tax just to bump up your first turn numbers.

The thing with taking a null pod in the event of an opponent who heavily uses reserves is that you have to decide if your ability to add some control to your Sternguard is worth 35 points? While a null pod can provide a useful distraction and block LOS for a turn, it is still paying 35 points for more control over your Sternguard and a 1 Turn wall that might kill a guardsman or something. I'd also like to note that if your opponent goes reserves heavy with his tanks, you are already at an advantage because that means that there are multiple turns where those tanks AREN'T trying to kill your men in armour. However, you are right in that if the drop-guard aren't able to show up next to something and nuke it in the same turn, they lose a lot of their effectiveness. I'm not sure what the right answer is, so my best response would be if you have the time and money to test it out, go for it.

Pods don't block LOS, though they can provide cover. They can be very useful in providing a restriction to movement however, forcing your enemy to detour their forces, especially if you can plunk it in an area that already has movement restricting terrain.

I've been building an all infantry list here, and it's been really fun thus far. Playing with 5 Tactical Squads, an Assault Squad and 2 10 man Devastator Squads lead by a Captain with a Command Squad is awesome, I bring 86 Marine bodies and have lots of guns to shoot you with, lots of guys to assault you with, and lots of special/heavy weapons spread out everywhere, not to mention tons of scoring unit options! If you have the models for this army, I suggest trying it, it puts the capabilities of your core models into perspective very well, and reminds me of how much a mere Tactical Squad can do.

 evildrspock wrote:
I've been building an all infantry list here, and it's been really fun thus far. Playing with 5 Tactical Squads, an Assault Squad and 2 10 man Devastator Squads lead by a Captain with a Command Squad is awesome, I bring 86 Marine bodies and have lots of guns to shoot you with, lots of guys to assault you with, and lots of special/heavy weapons spread out everywhere, not to mention tons of scoring unit options! If you have the models for this army, I suggest trying it, it puts the capabilities of your core models into perspective very well, and reminds me of how much a mere Tactical Squad can do.

I like the list spock All infantry, all the time! also, the captain loadout looks killer!

Recently a veteran at my local GW suggested to me to re-work my tactical squads with a radical, and dare i say heretical, idea. I shouldrun a 10-man squad with Nothing but bolters. no special weapons, no heavy weapons, no sergeant upgrades. And dare I say it was fun!

I played two games with marines like this: a 1,000pt game against another vanilla marine list, and a 2250pt list against a Blood Angel army.


The bolters worked awesomely! I didn't have to worry about getting guys into position to melt tanks or to use flamers, just shoot the ever-loveing crap out of things! and I won both games like this. it was the most fun I had with tacticals too.

Followup question on Drop Pods:

Assuming you are planning on deep striking additional units (not necessarily more drop pods), are locater beacons worth it?

Using my example unit above, I'm also planning on a unit of 5 hammernators (yes...this is a Vulkan list, but I think this question would apply to normal Marines too). The idea would be to follow up a 1st turn sternguard strike with terminators on subsequent turns, either tarpitting or distracting from the mechanized troops.

The locater beacon would allow for a pinpoint drop (assuming the opponent doesn't destroy the pod, which is likely given the target saturation I hope to provide him with mechanized forces and the sternguard).

Actually, putting a beacon on the sergeant of a group of scout bikes is a great way to get a T1 pinpoint drop, plus you get the additional close support from the bikes. They aren't as useful as they used to be as they can't charge on T1 anymore... but 4-6 astartes grenade launcher shots can be quite handy. Works best if you have first turn obviously as killing a few bikes isn't all that difficult.

The concern would be that the list wouldn't have the scout bikes (not enough points). Drop pods can get the beacon for the cost of a pintle stormbolter on any of the vehicles.

I can toss what I'm looking at doing up in the army list section if you'd like.

EDIT: To clarify, the concern is for the terminators to get the drop when they deep strike in. The Sternguard I'd probably be okay with a bit of scatter.

I used 4 drop pods with locater beacons last weekend, out of a total of 7 and they worked wonders for my deepstriking assault marines (ba's so had a few). Used double force org at 4k points and started the game with 3 tanks and a 5 man squad, against 4k points worth of orks!, made for a good picture

So I went out and bought a crap load of termi's on the cheap to make a snooty termi squad. What's your thoughts on assault cannons verse cyclones? I was thinking 10 man squad with 2 assault cannons personally because I feel they synergize with the storm bolters. Because like Spock I want to start an all foot list. It'd be something like
Termi Libby(possibly Lysander)140
4tacticals mm/meltax2, ML/meltax2, 4xrhino 840
10 termi's w/2x assault cannon, chain fist 465
2xthunderfire 200
5x devs w/3ML, 1LC 175
And I'd have about 200points left over for assault marines to cover my FA/heavy support in case of heavy guns/scouring.

Id go with attack bikes (200 pts gets you 2 squads of 2, or you could do a 3 man bike squad and free up 10-20 points for a dual HF speeder or HF/MM speeder) over assault marines but otherwise seems fine.

Id go with assault cannons vs cyclone. Rending is super supe are useful and better vs charges.

I don't have the attack bikes to do that. I have speeders, but I want the list to be foot based(yes I know I have rhinos I could trade out the rhinos for pods). What do you think about using a death wing squad with belial instead of vanilla termies? For 50 less points I'd get 1less assault cannon, 4 less models but only 2 less wounds, and I'd have an apothecary to make up for the small arms fire/plasma. I could then guarantee they come down first turn with a tactical in a pod if I chose that. I could mix in 3 TH/SS and have a super durable unit that could support a lnother squad and make where they come down a priority.

Im guessnig hte apothecary gives them FNP? I mean, that definitely seems pretty good but i dont really know the DA codex at all so i couldnt give much advice there.

I prefer more shooty to terminators, but that's just me

Yah it's basically a vanilla marine squad that can only have 5 people, and is allowed to mix assault weaps(TH/SS, twin light claws) with shooty elements. Belial is a P.sword storm bolter termi lord that can take thunderhammer, allows one marine to be a apoth(yes he give FNP) and also makes deathwing terminators scoring and have drop pod assault basically (half rounded up first turn).so my squad would be
Belial TH/SS
TH/SS Termi
Assault cannon apothecary
P.sword sergeant
Chain fist SB
And power fist SB.
410 points
6 guys 8 wounds, 2storm shields, assault cannon, apothecary, 3 storm bolters, 2 power fists, 1chain fist, and guaranteed to come down first turn.

Assault Cannons and Cyclone Missile Launchers are both good, really depends on what the rest of your army is bringing. Cyclone Missile Launchers can fill a void of tank hunting if you are a little lacking; however, Assault Cannons bring great versatility too. I personally usually take one Assault Cannon if I bring a 5 man unit, or 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers if I bring 10, usually led by Lysander.

Yah my anti armor is pretty well covered between 5ML, 2MM, 4melta guns,krak and melta bombs on tactical sergs, and a las cannon. And if need be with the terminator power fists,chain fist, and assault cannon. Granted i havent ran the list i posted yet its more just a thoght ive wanted to try lately. I also wanna run Lysander with 2x assault cannons at 10man strong and laugh as squads melt away under the 24"bubble they create. 16 tl SB shots and 8 str 6 rending shots would make a lot of infantry squads wilt.

My list that I've been doing really really well with now is a nice mixed mech/foot list gunline.
Term Libby
3x tactcals w/MM/melta, ML/meltax2, power sword melta bomb serg 2x rhino 1xpod
5x scouts w/Telion, camo, ML
7 TH/SS
1rifledread
2xtyphoon
2x auto las
Thunderfire
Aegis quad gun

7ML's, 2MM, 4 melta, 6heavy bolter, 8 TLAC, 4AC, 4las cannon, and thunderfire is pretty heavy firepower.

yeah i mean that seems like a solid list with good firepower. My only concern there is the general lack of AA, but otherwise seems pretty good.

isn't that what the quad gun and rifledread are for?

against 1 flyer sure maayyybe 2, but not against any more than that. It's pretty easy to pop a quad gun and not that much harder to pop a normal dread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore, the quad gun definitely starts going down hill against anything av12, so 2-3 vendettas or a storm raven or 2 will not really be threatened by that type of firepower.

My rifle dread sits in 3+ bolstered ruins usually,and the quad gun is 3+4++, and T7. 2 vendettasare no problem, 3+is where I get concerned. and I'm even less concerned about the ravens. Necrons are scary no matter who you are. But everything in my army gets some sort of cover/invuln. So it's usually surprisingly durable.

nobody wrote:

RegalPhantom wrote:
You'd be better dropping the Sternguard in on T1 than the pod. The strength of drop-guard is their ability to drop in and destroying a high priority (and high points) target before it gets to do anything. While you can hold off on them, you will usually get better returns on your investment if you cash in on them immediately (to illustrate, if a 5 man Sternguard squad drops in and destroys a Land Raider on turn 1 before it gets to do anything, you'll have effectively negated about 240 points of his list with significantly fewer points and still have 5 men and a pod left over, whereas if you kill that same target with the drop-guard on turn 2 or later, the tank has likely achieved something, reducing your ROI. (I did the math, and statistically speaking 5 Sternguard with combi-meltas have about a 97% chance of getting a vehicle explodes damage result against an AV 14 target if they are able to shoot at it from within 6")). So if you want to drop in a Thunderfire Cannon and Sternguard, I would suggest picking up a third drop pod for a tactical squad so you can drop the Sternguard and the Thunderfire on T1.

Although the more I think about it, aren't you just better off deploying the Thunderfire Cannon on the table without a drop pod? You are basically going to be setting the thing up in cover anyways, since it has an amazing range, so why bother with podding? If you were going all pods, I could see taking a Drop Pod on the TFC as a 'null pod' (a drop pod with nothing in it so that you can either drop or hold back an extra squad on T1), but if you are going mech I'm not sure it would be worth it.

Thank you, I had been wondering primarily in cases where an opponent reserves his heavy vehicles, but I'm not sure that's going to be a huge problem in the long run.

And yeah, the TFC would likely start on the table, the pod would just be an empty pod in case I run across an army where having the Sternguard come in first turn may not be as efficient (see also: Daemons).

The way I was thinking was like this:

Opponent starts everything on the table: Sternguard come in first turn. Null Pod lands wherever whenever it comes in.
Opponent makes heavy use of reserves: Empty Pod comes in first turn, Sternguard have a better shot of being able to drop and pop on something good.

Hypothetically, I was thinking that maybe a land raider Redeemer could be a good transport for melta sterns that want to charge into the enemy lines right away. The firestorm cannons can deal with massed infantry that are nearby(not even MEQs are safe) and a TL assault cannon can deal with any left over. Obviously the meltas can melt any tank of their choosing. If all goes as planned, and the enemy fail to kill either of them, you can ravage the enemy with the rest of your army advanced with little notice.

 ace101 wrote:

nobody wrote:

RegalPhantom wrote:
You'd be better dropping the Sternguard in on T1 than the pod. The strength of drop-guard is their ability to drop in and destroying a high priority (and high points) target before it gets to do anything. While you can hold off on them, you will usually get better returns on your investment if you cash in on them immediately (to illustrate, if a 5 man Sternguard squad drops in and destroys a Land Raider on turn 1 before it gets to do anything, you'll have effectively negated about 240 points of his list with significantly fewer points and still have 5 men and a pod left over, whereas if you kill that same target with the drop-guard on turn 2 or later, the tank has likely achieved something, reducing your ROI. (I did the math, and statistically speaking 5 Sternguard with combi-meltas have about a 97% chance of getting a vehicle explodes damage result against an AV 14 target if they are able to shoot at it from within 6")). So if you want to drop in a Thunderfire Cannon and Sternguard, I would suggest picking up a third drop pod for a tactical squad so you can drop the Sternguard and the Thunderfire on T1.

Although the more I think about it, aren't you just better off deploying the Thunderfire Cannon on the table without a drop pod? You are basically going to be setting the thing up in cover anyways, since it has an amazing range, so why bother with podding? If you were going all pods, I could see taking a Drop Pod on the TFC as a 'null pod' (a drop pod with nothing in it so that you can either drop or hold back an extra squad on T1), but if you are going mech I'm not sure it would be worth it.

Thank you, I had been wondering primarily in cases where an opponent reserves his heavy vehicles, but I'm not sure that's going to be a huge problem in the long run.

And yeah, the TFC would likely start on the table, the pod would just be an empty pod in case I run across an army where having the Sternguard come in first turn may not be as efficient (see also: Daemons).

The way I was thinking was like this:

Opponent starts everything on the table: Sternguard come in first turn. Null Pod lands wherever whenever it comes in.
Opponent makes heavy use of reserves: Empty Pod comes in first turn, Sternguard have a better shot of being able to drop and pop on something good.

Hypothetically, I was thinking that maybe a land raider Redeemer could be a good transport for melta sterns that want to charge into the enemy lines right away. The firestorm cannons can deal with massed infantry that are nearby(not even MEQs are safe) and a TL assault cannon can deal with any left over. Obviously the meltas can melt any tank of their choosing. If all goes as planned, and the enemy fail to kill either of them, you can ravage the enemy with the rest of your army advanced with little notice.

Land Raiders as a delivery mechanism for sternguard, melta-sternguard in particular, suffer from several issues, particularly when compared to drop pods.
1. Cost: A LRR with a Multi-Melta is the same cost as a full 10 man Sternguard squad naked, and 50 points less than a full Sternguard squad with all combi-weapons. Basically, taking a Redeemer with Sternguard is putting a lot of eggs in one basket. An AV14 basket, but still, its something that can be taken care of by lance, haywire, gauss or melta.
2. Efficiency: The greatest advantage of melta-sternguard in a drop pod is that they wipe out whatever your opponents toughest target is instantly before it gets a chance to do something. Killing something on T1 is a hell of a lot better than killing it even on T2, because during that one turn your target has had an opportunity to do whatever it is supposed to be doing and make some of its points back. With Sternguard in a LR, you have to wait at least on turn before you can get the land raider into position so that you can drop the Sternguard off into melta range, and theres a higher chance you'll have them shooting against front armour. With them in a drop pod, you can get them in position IMMEDIATELY and against side or even rear armour.

Um yeah I'm not a huge fan of LRs (except fo rthe fact that they look awesome) because they are such big expensive targets for the relative firepower you gain.

For that one 250 point LR you could get...

A droppod for your sternguard
with 4 MM attack bikes bikes and 15 points orrr 3 MM attack bikes bikes and 1 MM/MM speeder....

etc

For droppod sternguard I wouldnt go much past 5 guys all with combi-meltas, they really are pretty much a suicide unit at that point and 5 combi meltas should be enough to kill what you need to kill.

hrm, this gets me thinking... what about dropping a 10-man sternguard unit, half with combi-meltas and the other half with combi-flamers? you get to melt whatever it is you need to melt on turn 1. you have some quality anti-charge defense. barring an unfortunate pie plate or two, your 10 man squad will either draw a lot of fire turn 1 (which is fire not going into the rest of your army) or will live long enough to rapid-fire something with special ammo.

worth the extra points or would you just be better off dropping two separate 5-man units for a few points more?

Id say 2 5 man instead, lets you pick 2 different threats and target them and seperates their fire. Instead of a 5 man with combi-flamers you could do a dread with HF/flamer on the CCW in the pod, it's a touch cheaper for a similar effect, and they REALLY dont want that getting into CC. Alternatly try a seige dread

120 points for a str 6 ap 3 template and HF template within his fist. He also ignores shaken and stunned, pretty good deal (hell you could even get him an assault pod to assault out of there).

The funny thing is I'm trying to move away from a LR for my hammernators.

As for the Sternguard situation, I'm currently looking at a 10 man combi-melta squad, which will usually combat squad upon drop.

If there's only one tank, then one combat squad will pop it, while the other shoots at troops with their special ammo (bonus points if the tank is a transport, then the second combat squad can light up whatever was inside).

If there's two tanks close enough together, I can potentially pop both at the same time.

The two unit idea could also work, my main concern would be trying to scale up the army list which could potentially include one of the ironclad dreads.

what do you think, in a fun game useing the IA siege list, of a 10 man siege assault squad in a land raider redeemer with a siege master riding with them?

IIRC, the assault squad all have combat shields, are troop choices, and have a bunch of other doodads that help them out.


aaaaaaaand people are ignoring me

Alright, I'd like to steer the discussion back to troops for scoring units. I did see a post earlier in the thread discussing a one per 500 rule. Does the ability to Combat Squad change this? IE: Can I safely go 3 troops at 1999 (technically 2000, but the tournaments here are 1999+1 to disallow multiple detachments) points if I'm planning to Combat Squad at least one squad?

I would say no, mostly because 5 marines are, as it turns out, not all that tough.


If you think about it, any AP3 or lower template will (on a hit) likely one shot them out in the open, and they will get massacred by any moderaly captable CC unit or swarms of units of 15 or more. Look at sternguard that we've been talking about! A 5 man sternguard would wipe out a 5 man tactical easy peasy with that rapid ap3 fire.


As a result, while a very useful tactic and potentially good to split your heavy weapon off to ping things and swarm objectives, it's not what I would call a solid scoring unit on its own. You want a 5 man combat squad to be no big deal if it goes away, not 1/4th your scoring power.

Thus, you still need bodies, lots and lots of meq bodies, which means I suggest not just 1 scoring unit per 500 poitns but 1 10 man tac squad per 500 poitns. So at 1999 that would be 4, and even then id probably throw in a sniper scout squad too.

Besides, although a touch overcosted (they really should be 15 each not 16), why would you skimp out on our marines? they are still good, accurate and give us cheap heavy weapons. Just dont get them in CC (or get them out as fast as you can).

Largo39 wrote:
I would say no, mostly because 5 marines are, as it turns out, not all that tough.


If you think about it, any AP3 or lower template will (on a hit) likely one shot them out in the open, and they will get massacred by any moderaly captable CC unit or swarms of units of 15 or more. Look at sternguard that we've been talking about! A 5 man sternguard would wipe out a 5 man tactical easy peasy with that rapid ap3 fire.


As a result, while a very useful tactic and potentially good to split your heavy weapon off to ping things and swarm objectives, it's not what I would call a solid scoring unit on its own. You want a 5 man combat squad to be no big deal if it goes away, not 1/4th your scoring power.

Thus, you still need bodies, lots and lots of meq bodies, which means I suggest not just 1 scoring unit per 500 poitns but 1 10 man tac squad per 500 poitns. So at 1999 that would be 4, and even then id probably throw in a sniper scout squad too.

Besides, although a touch overcosted (they really should be 15 each not 16), why would you skimp out on our marines? they are still good, accurate and give us cheap heavy weapons. Just dont get them in CC (or get them out as fast as you can).

The main concern would be filling in additional toys to handle the stuff that the normal marines cannot (FA choices that can get there faster, elites/heavy support that hit harder, etc).. Example: Tac Marines tend to be just "okay" in close combat. You need close combat specialists against many opponents, so one less Tac Squad (220 pts including rhino) can get me one more 5 man squad of TH/SS terminators, along with a cushion of points.

Or if you have a meta where aircraft show up, one less tac squad could give you a Stormtalon + a good chunk of the way to an AGL.

hey, what do you guys think is the best loadout for a tactical squad?? (wich weapons should I give them)?

ahhh well see I didnt suggest you kit your tacs out with rhinos I keep them lean and mean .

My most common builds right now

175 - MM and MG or ML and MG
190 - LC and PG (no more than 1-2 of these though)
180 - ML and PG (my default)

Honestly rhinos are.. kind of iffy. You get 12 inches of movement sure but then, they dont ususally last much longer than that though. Since those 12 inches you'd ususally want headed towards an objective.. how often do you want to move towards objectives first turn?

They are sitll pretty handy to have around and potential roadblocks, so here is what I might do at 1999 poitns if i had some points to spare (i dont default get rhinos right now). Honestly though id just as soon lose the rhinos too and use the poitns for more attack bikes and speeders.

4 x 10 man tactical squads (800 points)
2x190 - LC and PG
2x210- MM and MG with rhino.

that leaves 1200 poitns which is moooreee than enough for toys.

Secondly... mm... why exactly do you need close combat specialists? That's sort of the point of combat tactics, getting out of CC. We really dont have ANY sort of CC specialists that are any good, at least for vanilla marines. Assault marines are overcosted, and we dont get 2 cc weapons/counter attack like our wolfy brethren, or force weapons like our knights. So honestly, we're really suppose to be shooty and/or bikey.

All we really have are assault marines, which are really great at.. tarpitting something. They dont have that many attacks and they go last, so they're mostly for surviving and a defensive measure against any big scary CC units. Furthermore you also have to invest in ways to get the termies where they need to be that they're something I tend to just leave on my shelf. If I want that kind of CC id rather go with an ally.

Finally with flyers... well that's the other reason why we need lots of bodies, that lets us ignore them a lot better. Lets be real here, the stormtalon on it's own is a pretty well costed flyer. But compared to the nightscythe/vendetta/doomscythe it sucks and is WAY over costed. It only has 2 HP so there is about an even chance that it will get one shotted by a quad gun. It's not really worth the points at this point, better to have more bodies and just ignore the air entirely (or you go my route and get AA via FW and be much happier about life).

alright. And do you guys think a Vulkan list will still work?

What do we think of load outs for Land speeders? finally got three of them so wondering what load out to try first. I am tempted to go AC HB in a squadron of three (and cast prescience on them as I run BA's), although I do usually like to keep a nice firebase core in my armies so am using liking the longer range HB and typhoon ML load out, i will be magnetising the weapons though.

I already have up to 5 attack bikes with MM's so I dont really need any MM;s on my LS's

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
what do you think, in a fun game useing the IA siege list, of a 10 man siege assault squad in a land raider redeemer with a siege master riding with them?

IIRC, the assault squad all have combat shields, are troop choices, and have a bunch of other doodads that help them out.


aaaaaaaand people are ignoring me

Being ignored when you're talking about using Imperial Armor rules that have nothing to do with VANILLA marines is a good thing. The book changes the setup, tactics, objectives and abilities of the space marine army. This thread is about the more accessible C:SM and not Forge World books that not everyone has read many times or played against many times. To answer you're question: Hint I bolded why it is and is not a good idea. Have fun.

@Glenn87 - I believe Vulkan still carries a lot of weight by twin linking and a list built around that rule can do lots of harm with DP stern, dreads, or foot marines. This also means that in my area players are used to and tired of seeing Vulkan showing up so I try to field him rarely to not agitate the player base.

@ Largo39 - With so many objective based games how do you get your scoring units to the opp. objectives? Foot slogging seems like it would be easily countered by targeting tacs closest to an objective. Even with 1200 points of toys it seems a bit of a jog.

MarkyMark wrote:
What do we think of load outs for Land speeders? finally got three of them so wondering what load out to try first. I am tempted to go AC HB in a squadron of three (and cast prescience on them as I run BA's), although I do usually like to keep a nice firebase core in my armies so am using liking the longer range HB and typhoon ML load out, i will be magnetising the weapons though.

I already have up to 5 attack bikes with MM's so I dont really need any MM;s on my LS's

I like them for melta delivery, but you use bikes for that.

The typhoon/HB is a very nice one. Between the range and speed, you can add fire support to wherever it is needed on the table. And you can do it from outside bolter range, which can bring you down. The HB/HB speeder seems a poor man's option of the same tactic.

HF/HF is a flying BBQ. Fast, cheap, effective.

I love the AC as a weapon, but the speeder is a poor platform for it. You need to be within 24" to use it, and only have AV10. I'm OK suiciding a speeder to blow up a tank with a melta, but not to just blow a chunk out of an infantry squad. You are unlikely to kill it, and the return fire will do bad things to you. Plus, they are expensive. If I'm sinking that many points on a speeder, I'd rather be safely drifting around the backfield with the typhoon.

Largo39 wrote:
ahhh well see I didnt suggest you kit your tacs out with rhinos I keep them lean and mean .

My most common builds right now

175 - MM and MG or ML and MG
190 - LC and PG (no more than 1-2 of these though)
180 - ML and PG (my default)

Honestly rhinos are.. kind of iffy. You get 12 inches of movement sure but then, they dont ususally last much longer than that though. Since those 12 inches you'd ususally want headed towards an objective.. how often do you want to move towards objectives first turn?

They are sitll pretty handy to have around and potential roadblocks, so here is what I might do at 1999 poitns if i had some points to spare (i dont default get rhinos right now). Honestly though id just as soon lose the rhinos too and use the poitns for more attack bikes and speeders.

4 x 10 man tactical squads (800 points)
2x190 - LC and PG
2x210- MM and MG with rhino.

that leaves 1200 poitns which is moooreee than enough for toys.

Secondly... mm... why exactly do you need close combat specialists? That's sort of the point of combat tactics, getting out of CC. We really dont have ANY sort of CC specialists that are any good, at least for vanilla marines. Assault marines are overcosted, and we dont get 2 cc weapons/counter attack like our wolfy brethren, or force weapons like our knights. So honestly, we're really suppose to be shooty and/or bikey.

All we really have are assault marines, which are really great at.. tarpitting something. They dont have that many attacks and they go last, so they're mostly for surviving and a defensive measure against any big scary CC units. Furthermore you also have to invest in ways to get the termies where they need to be that they're something I tend to just leave on my shelf. If I want that kind of CC id rather go with an ally.

Finally with flyers... well that's the other reason why we need lots of bodies, that lets us ignore them a lot better. Lets be real here, the stormtalon on it's own is a pretty well costed flyer. But compared to the nightscythe/vendetta/doomscythe it sucks and is WAY over costed. It only has 2 HP so there is about an even chance that it will get one shotted by a quad gun. It's not really worth the points at this point, better to have more bodies and just ignore the air entirely (or you go my route and get AA via FW and be much happier about life).

Ahh, yeah, I've had my tac squads in rhinos from the first game I played with a SM army back in 3rd. As it might become obvious here...I'm working on a Vulkan list (I think I'm allowed, I played Salamanders back when their Tac Marines had I3 which was before they were cool). As such I get access to TH/SS Terminators with MC on their hammers, making them somewhat more effective.

My (current) preferred layout is sgt w/power sword, MM, flamer in barebones rhino.which sets me up at 220. This allows me to get my flamers upfield, and the pain of firing MMs with snap shots is somewhat lessened thanks to Vulkan twin-linking them. The PS are there mostly to help break them out of tarpits, I'm not expecting them to win combat in most cases.

As for the AA issue, FW is out (would take too long, and too expensive at this point), and I rather like the idea of the Stormtalon acting as a deterrent or distraction to enemy fliers. To be honest my current meta has no IG, so no Vendettas or Valks, and out of the Necron players, only one is using aircraft. I have seen a DE player bringing two of the bombers, so that could be amusing.

Also, I'll admit that I like the model

 mrwhoop wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
what do you think, in a fun game useing the IA siege list, of a 10 man siege assault squad in a land raider redeemer with a siege master riding with them?

IIRC, the assault squad all have combat shields, are troop choices, and have a bunch of other doodads that help them out.


aaaaaaaand people are ignoring me

Being ignored when you're talking about using Imperial Armor rules that have nothing to do with VANILLA marines is a good thing. The book changes the setup, tactics, objectives and abilities of the space marine army. This thread is about the more accessible C:SM and not Forge World books that not everyone has read many times or played against many times. To answer you're question: Hint I bolded why it is and is not a good idea. Have fun.

@Glenn87 - I believe Vulkan still carries a lot of weight by twin linking and a list built around that rule can do lots of harm with DP stern, dreads, or foot marines. This also means that in my area players are used to and tired of seeing Vulkan showing up so I try to field him rarely to not agitate the player base.

@ Largo39 - With so many objective based games how do you get your scoring units to the opp. objectives? Foot slogging seems like it would be easily countered by targeting tacs closest to an objective. Even with 1200 points of toys it seems a bit of a jog.

ouch, beatdown sorry about that. just thought I would ask.

Speaking of IA, does anyone suppose that the forge world flyers are better than standard SM flyers (Storm Talon, Stormraven)? I've had a good look at the Aeronautica Imperialis book, and those two seemed to be a better value to me than Storm Talon, who is really slightly less fragile than a land speeder, something that I wouldn't want in a flyer with all the AA toys that people are getting recently.

@ace101: First note that we dont actually get the storm raven, only BA/GK/SW do. Vanilla marines have the talon instead. Anyways, the FW flyers for SM are better... but not at dealing with enemy flyers. So it sorta comes down to what you need and what holes there are in your army. The Caestus assault ram is really good at getting units across the board, and similarly the storm eagle base is great at surviving fire and (with it's heavy 2 large blasts) putting the pain on infantry. But neither deal with enemy flyers well, for that you want mortis contemptor dreads and hyperios defense platforms.

@Tiger9gamer: sorry I didnt respond! I dont know anything about that seige list, so I cant really talk about it's effectivness or not

@mrwhoop: IA is absolutely up for discussion here because FW is the only route we become competitive. The tournament meta right now is crons, ig, GK and (now) CSM. Crons and IG get most of that tournament power from their air, with CSM (with those helldrakes) likely isnt far behind in relying on air for their victories. Thus no matter what we need solid and reliable AA and the only way we get that is through FW. Now for the various specific army builds in those books I dont know much about, but I'm just focusing on the 40k approved alternate leaders and AA tools we can acess to try and deal with those kinds of meta threats.

@::MarkyMark: go with typhoon speeders, dual HF speeders, or dual MM speeders. Those are the best options, and if you have attack bikes then just lost the MM speeders and go with dual HF or typhoon. MM bikes are a lot more reliable and durable, and can contest.

@nobody: soo... I dont really like powerswords on seargents. The perfect combat for marines is one they lose by exactly 1 guy. Then they break morale, fall back, and shoot the crap out of the enemy next turn. Given that there are 3 main situations we can find ourselves in with CC:

1. either we're facing a swarm of s3 or s4 enemies who are relying on number of attacks to do the job. In this case the power sword will likely not really make much difference, it may kill 1 guy (since he'll only have what, 2 attacks?) but that's about it. Not much damage to the swarm
2. We're up against 5-10 CC specialists without any critical leaders. In this case we're likely going to die. If we get to go first then that ususally means we're up against TEQ at which point it does nothing, and if we dont go firs then powersword guy will probably be dead before he can use it.
3. We're up against a CC king who can singlehandedly slaughter the squad. In this case the seargent has one role, challenge and save the rest of his squad with his sacrifice. Again here the power sword has no use and is just a waste of points.

examples of 1: termagaunts, ork boyz, etc. Examples of 2: harliequins, terminators, wraiths, etc. examples of 3: swarmlord, mephiston, abaddon, etc.

In all 3 of those scenarios the power sword didnt really do much help, and those are the most common we'll find ourselves in against the CC armies we fear most. Thus I argue you can save some points by just keeping your powersword points and use them elsewhere (hell get melta bombs instead!)

Again rhinos are decent at getting places, but think about this. In most of the objective games we control half of their locations, so no matter what we get to have 1-2 home obectives. Well the tac squads holding those certainly dont need a rhino, and that ususally means we only need one more objective to secure victory. so I send 1-2 tacticals after it with all my mobile elements and they should be able to make it there. If the enemy has the firepower to wipe that all out then rhinos wouldnt have made much difference anyways.. They're still useful for late objective grabbing... if they survive that long.

the only main mission where we dont control half the objectives is relic.. and a rhino doesnt help here anyways since you HAVE to footslog that sucker (6 inch movement max) And they hurt us in VP missions too....

For those asking about Vulkan yeah he's great, as long as you have your AA covered and arnt worried/dont need pyschic powers then ur great.

Things to get:
5 TH/SS termis
MM attack bikes,
HF speeders,
droppodded flamer dreads,
drop podded combi-melta sternguard,
3 MM/MG tactical squads

should set you up well.

I like the talon model too, I just dont like his stats compared to the meta flyers So if your meta doesnt have many enemy flyers I honestly wouldnt use the talon either... he's a decent harasser but there are better things to get.

Largo39 wrote:
@ace101: First note that we dont actually get the storm raven, only BA/GK/SW do.

Since when did SW get Storm Ravens?

Largo39 wrote:
@nobody: soo... I dont really like powerswords on seargents. The perfect combat for marines is one they lose by exactly 1 guy. Then they break morale, fall back, and shoot the crap out of the enemy next turn. Given that there are 3 main situations we can find ourselves in with CC:

1. either we're facing a swarm of s3 or s4 enemies who are relying on number of attacks to do the job. In this case the power sword will likely not really make much difference, it may kill 1 guy (since he'll only have what, 2 attacks?) but that's about it. Not much damage to the swarm
2. We're up against 5-10 CC specialists without any critical leaders. In this case we're likely going to die. If we get to go first then that ususally means we're up against TEQ at which point it does nothing, and if we dont go firs then powersword guy will probably be dead before he can use it.
3. We're up against a CC king who can singlehandedly slaughter the squad. In this case the seargent has one role, challenge and save the rest of his squad with his sacrifice. Again here the power sword has no use and is just a waste of points.

examples of 1: termagaunts, ork boyz, etc. Examples of 2: harliequins, terminators, wraiths, etc. examples of 3: swarmlord, mephiston, abaddon, etc.

In all 3 of those scenarios the power sword didnt really do much help, and those are the most common we'll find ourselves in against the CC armies we fear most. Thus I argue you can save some points by just keeping your powersword points and use them elsewhere (hell get melta bombs instead!)

your reasoning for not bothering with power weapons/fists on the sergeant makes sense, but what about a combi-flamer? worth the extra points for D3 free wounds against the first thing that charges you?

@smUrfsrUs: umm.. actually yeah i think ur right, that was a mistype, just BA and GK. SW just have... all the other shiny things (siigh longfangs and counter attack, and stupid cc weapon/pistol/bolter, grrrr).

@varl: a combi flamer would be a great choice... if it were 5 points instead of 10. Because it's 10 it's not something id bother with TBH, at that point id rather have a HK missile annnd those arnt ususally point effective. I leave my seargents skinny and cheap but the best upgrade ive seen for them is melta-bombs, as it lets you deal with 2 specific threats that you'd otherwise have trouble with even backing away from and shooting: MCs and Heavier all-around tanks (for lighter tanks krak can get through just fine). So they're a decent investment and only 5 points to boot, but for me i still just go with naked seargents, but then I really dont have ANY points to spare with my list.

I need help building the last 3 Devastators I have. I already have built the 2 Lascannons, so, I'll list what I already have in my army and see what you guys think (for the Heavy Weapons, not necessarily fielding them in a Devastator Squad):

I have:

4 Missile Launchers
3 Plasma Cannons
2 Lascannons
1 Heavy Bolter
0 Multi-Meltas

Now, I could build the Multi Melta, but other than making a melta bunker to keep tanks the hell away, I don't see what the point is (Considering I already run 2 Vindicators and 8 Missile Launchers in my 1500 List to deal with tanks that get close, such as Dreads). However, Heavy Bolters are dumb on Tactical Squads due to the fact that you also get the amazing Missile Launcher and the almost as amazing Multi-Melta for free too.

And, I already have 3 Plasma Cannons...

I guess I could build the Missile Launcher / Multi Melta, just so if I field a Missile Launcher devie squad I can field a ML somewhere else too.

Or I could use them as count-as allied Space Wolf Long Fangs!