As you can see, there are many exciting rewards we've put together for backers, including some special edition gear for Malifaux. If you get in early enough, you can get a Miss Terious too, so don't miss it!
Oh, and don't forget to check out Hannah. She's a favorite around the office.
So I've been back tracking through Wyrd's website and am collecting things related to the RPG here.
This teaser trailer was released a week ago. It's pretty vague but it kinda sets up the mood for the whole RPG:
And Wyrd hired Mack Martin, a game developer for Fantasy Flight Games, and a former host of the old podcast Dice Like Thunder, and here is what he has to say about the RPG:
Mack.Martin wrote:Hey guys! I'm the Wyrd RPG Developer. I thought I would duck in here, drop a little bit of information, and then disappear again in a cloud of smoke, leaving you wanting more. [MANIACAL LAUGH!]
Not to give to much away, but I'm a big fan of games with non-linear progression of player characters. I feel pretty strongly that Malifaux is in a unique place where the game can properly serve two masters, when it comes to "Theatre of the Mind" vs. "Tabletop Grids". An RPG is a different beast than a Miniatures game, and I've worked on both long enough to know where the line blurs, and where we need to make it clear.
The RPG team is really excited about this project... we think we might be doing something incredible that really challenges players and Fatemasters with a robust gaming experience. I've taken a lot of inspiration from classical story pacing, as well as strong thematic under-pinning. We are working hard to make this a game where the mechanics support the theme and story, integrating the two in an inseparable way.
I love the list of games CRC tossed up. I'd like to off up my list of "inspirational games" that I didn't help make. Try not to read to much into it, these are just the games that make me want to break out the dice and start a campaign whenever they get mentioned. I love their mechanic systems.
Shadowrun
Dresden Files
All Flesh Must Be Eaten
Deadlands
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (3rd Edition)
Dungeons and Dragons (4th Edition)
There has been much speculation about what we can hope to see in the Malifaux kickstarter, Wyrd has been asking their forum members, as well as a design contest for their logo (though they have decided on one).
I'll try to keep this up to date as things come in.
Also, if someone could screen cap the logo from the end of the youtube video, I would greatly appreciate that
Stretch Goals Update #1
November 30th - over 400% of funding goal
Hi everyone! It’s not time for the Daily Update, but we’re updating early as Northern California is in the middle of a flood warning and wind advisory and we might lose power any time.
Yes, this means it’s time to reveal Stretch Goals! These two goals have already been cleared, and the rewards unlocked for anyone pledging at $125 and above!
$50,000: Fate Deck cards will be plastic
$100,000: One additional Special Edition Fate Deck
There are more Stretch Goals waiting to be reached, so read on to see what Fate may have in store! These rewards also apply to pledges at $125 and above (except for one very special goal that applies to every reward level).
$150,000: One Male or Female Multi-Pose Mini (random gender)
$200,000: A Pad of Character Sheets
$250,000: One Special Edition Hanging Tree Mini. This miniature is of the most prominent landmark in all of Malifaux, originally made available at Gen Con 2012.
$250,000: for all pledges $60 and above receive a Digital Version of the books
$300,000: ???
Reminder: backers who pledge $60 or more by 5 p.m. PST today will receive a Miss Terious as our Early Supporter Thank You, and you can always change your pledge at any point without losing your Miss Terious.
Finally, check the FAQ’s on our home page as they have been updated to address some very important questions!
Until Tomorrow!
Jacqulyn
Backer Only Updates
Spoiler:
Backer Update #1
Hi everyone!
Day One is coming to a close, so it's time for the Daily Update. First off - Thanks to everyone for your awesome support!
Next is a quick note on Stretch Goals. Stretch goals are in the works, but we won't start releasing them until Friday (11/30) at 5:00 p.m. PST, when our "Miss Terious Early Bird" period ends.
Finally, a housekeeping note - we'll be doing one update every day around 4-5 p.m. PST, so if the updates get to be too much, go ahead and unsubscribe and check in on us at your leisure. It's going to be an action packed Kickstarter though, so don't fall behind!
Until Tomorrow!
Backer Update #2
Wyrd Miniatures wrote:November 29th - over 280% of funding goal
Hi everyone! Day Two is coming to a close, so it's time for the Daily Update. Thanks for your incredible support!
First, there’ve been a lot of people concerned about losing their Miss Terious if they change their pledge level. We’re happy to say that you can change your pledge at any time, and your Miss Terious is completely safe. It is important to know that if you CANCEL your pledge for any reason, even if it’s just to create a new pledge, the Miss Terious will be forfeit. Check the FAQ’s out here ( www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/backer%20questions%23BackAProj ) if you’re unsure about how to change your pledge without canceling it. And, don’t hesitate to message us if the FAQ’s don’t answer your questions.
Many backers and potential backers are talking about the Project’s reward levels, and that’s good! We want your feedback and suggestions. Our design for the Through the Breach Kickstarter is certainly off the beaten path, and with good reason. The folks in charge of Kickstarter have encouraged all project creators and project backers to be aware that Kickstarter is not a store and they don't want to see it run like one. We've tried to put together a compelling project that needs your help and feedback to succeed, with exclusive and enticing rewards if you choose to participate. Now that we’re funded, our promise is sealed; we will be producing Through the Breach. If you’re excited about the game, but not so much the Kickstarter rewards, we encourage you to get out and support your local game store when we launch the RPG!
Until Tomorrow!
Backer Update #4
December 3rd - over 516% of funding goal
Hi everyone!
Day Six is coming to a close, so it’s time for the Daily Update! We’re rocketing into our first full Kickstarter week with a brand-new kind of update. Read on to discover the “Breach Side Chat”!
First though– catching up from the weekend! Thanks to your support, we blasted past ANOTHER Stretch Goal!
$150,000 – ACHIEVED receive an additional Male or Female Multi-Pose Mini (gender determined randomly)
We’re working hard to process your questions and suggestions. For some tasty morsels of information on Through the Breach, head to the Gamer’s Lounge and catch their special with Mack Martin! Bill (author of the special) says it’s “a full hour of Mack Martin answering as many questions as I could drag out of him. Kickstarter, Fluff, Character Creation, Fate Deck, and anything else he would tell us.” http://gamerslounge.coda.net/2012/11/30/gamers-lounge-special-through-the-breach/
Finally, get your texting, emailing, chatting units ready for the chance pick Mack’s Malifaux brain! Tomorrow from 5 p.m. ‘til 6 p.m. PST (12/4), our very own Mack Martin will be answering YOUR QUESTIONS live on UStream TV for our first Breach Side Chat! http://www.ustream.tv/channel/through-the-breach
Won’t be at a computer during that hour tomorrow? We gotcha covered. You can ask Mack questions any time in our Kickstarter Comments section (just address them “@BreachSideChat”) and he’ll see your question for the next Breach Side Chat. Plus, we’ll record every session and post it on the UStream Channel, so you can replay any Breach Side Chat you missed.
Every week, we’ll host a Breach Side Chat at a different time to try to accommodate a breadth of schedules and time zones. Keep an eye on the Updates for info on upcoming Chats!
As soon as I heard about this, I started picking and choosing very carefully about what I'm spending on, because of the combination of this and the holidays...
less concerned with the mechanicsas I probably wouldn't end up using it as, but blending it into something else
I completely agree, there is a good chunk of Malifaux detailed in the books, but something that fleshes that out even more amg?! Apparently no one follows Wyrd on twitter, because this hasn't been brought up on their forums
This has some pretty serious potential. I adore steampunk settings, and the addition of high-level magic in Malifaux is awesome. I'm not big on the horror aspect, but hey, i'm still sitting on 2/3 likes here.
Breotan wrote: Who the hell smokes AND chews at the same time? lol
A true nicotine addict... I worked at a camp and there was a guy that had packed his bottom gums with chew, his upper gum with a packet of snus, and was smoking a cigarette.
And the "portal" train tunnel reminded me too much of Wile E. Coyote to not laugh at it.
Other than those two things, its better than what GW usually puts out.
The portal seemed like a rejected animation for the opening of Doctor Who.
I tend to be a traditionalist when it comes to my RPGs, and I have trouble breaking out of my set desire to play only D&D and occasionally GURPS.
However, I love the Malifaux setting, and if they offer special-edition miniatures along with this Kickstarter, I may get it for the lore and minis alone.
Absolutionis wrote: I tend to be a traditionalist when it comes to my RPGs, and I have trouble breaking out of my set desire to play only D&D and occasionally GURPS.
However, I love the Malifaux setting, and if they offer special-edition miniatures along with this Kickstarter, I may get it for the lore and minis alone.
I'm very much the same way. I own World of Darkness books, the IKRPG, and probably a few other Free RPG day systems, and I have them mostly for the lore and the background... DnD and Pathfinder (i.e. d20 systems) are my thing...
Any word on this or Wyrd's mysterious birthday sale? I'm cool with mysteriousness and whatnot, but even with the internet to aid, this is still feeling pretty esoteric, coming from someone who's a pretty big fan of their game/company...
I always thought the breach was out in desert, not stuck on hill.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also an RPG in that world might get me interested in RPG's. D&D just can't seem to capture my attention, maybe this will. Either way, if it's cheap enough or comes with sweet minis, they'll have my money.
Alfndrate wrote: Mack Martin said something today on Wyrd's forums that if you already play Malifaux, you'll already have what you need to play Through the Breach.
Which means, it will probably be card based instead of dice based
Nope-- you actually throw models at each other (or the GM) to determine success, that's what he was referring to. Malifaux minis are just the recommended brand.
You should really learn to read between the lines...
Alfndrate wrote: Mack Martin said something today on Wyrd's forums that if you already play Malifaux, you'll already have what you need to play Through the Breach.
Which means, it will probably be card based instead of dice based
Nope-- you actually throw models at each other (or the GM) to determine success, that's what he was referring to. Malifaux minis are just the recommended brand.
You should really learn to read between the lines...
Dang! I should have expected this from a former Dice Like Thunder member thanks!
Edit: I guess Caty's statement should be backed up. Last night on twitter they said there was some form of technical difficulties, and that the kickstarter would be delayed, but they're keeping the early pledge level open for 1 day longer.
If you pledge early (during this early pledge time period) you'll get a Miss Terious model for Malifaux for free...
I've already got 3 for my Lady J demo crew, so a 4th one will go towards event prizes
If you pledge early (during this early pledge time period) you'll get a Miss Terious model for Malifaux for free...
I've already got 3 for my Lady J demo crew, so a 4th one will go towards event prizes
I kinda hate you a little
Don't hate me :-/ I spent a lot of time and money at GenCon. I bought over 300 dollars worth of stuff (but not all at once, cause I had like 2 orders at 179 and 182), and I got 1, along with booth cred and a santana ortega for donating my entire Saturday to demoing in the event hall....
BrookM, if it goes up today, it will probably go up aorund 6:00 pm EST which would be like midnight in the UK and possibly an hour or two later depending on what the time zones are like for Europe (I really only know American time zones and the UK sorry pal
Interestingly for Mailfaux fans it looks like they have a few Kickstarter only items:
Players and Masters Guide bound into One Hardcover - Living Room Player and Gaming Room Player
RPG Fate Deck - Living Room Player and Gaming Room Player level
A Male and Female Multi-Pose mini - Dining Room Player and above
Special edition sculpt of Hannah, Chief Freikorps Archivist - Dining Room Player and above
Theres currently no images of any of these items, but there are descripsions on the KS page, give it a few days and they will probley update it with images.
*updated*
Ha ha there is a piece of artwork for Hannah on the KS page, completely missed it.
It's very interesting that they do not seem to really have any lower end pledge levels. The minimum pledge is $60, the next step up is $125. That seems rather expensive.
There also doesn't seem to be way to simply buy a player's guide, they only come in bundles.
Annoyingly this looks a little expensive for me at the moment with shipping (not that it's unreasonable),
but about £55 for the very base game is a bit beyond impulse purchace cost, I was hoping for £40 so I now need to consider fast as if I'm going to back I'll need to do it before the free figure expires
BrookM wrote: Not sure how three minis justify a $65 bump.
Well you get a RPG fatedeck as well, but admittedly its still big jump, not to mention theres no "low-level" pleages at all ony $60 and up, I can see that turning alot of backers away.
I would of also thought the fatedeck would be included at all levels considering the discription makes it sound like you need it.
BrookM wrote: I don't think a fate deck is included with the mini's deal.
Hmm you know what I think your right, looks like it only comes in Living Room Player and Gaming Room Player, that makes even less sense, hopfully they'll add it as an opitional Add-On.
I've really looked now, and I'm honestly a little flabbergast at the pledge levels.
At $65 you get the player and DM (or whatever) books. Pricey, but not completely out of line.
At $125 you get the above, plus either
(Dining Room): 2 "multipose" male/female miniatures, and the Freikorp exclusive miniature.
(Living Room): the books you already get bound in a single, hardcover edition and a deck of cards.
These seem... really expensive for what you are getting.
I mean, by way of comparison, consider that the Dragon King Expansion for Kingdom Death is $30, and includes a large mini, and a kit that makes 4 (2 male, 2 female) figures. Plus a load of cards and so on.
The miniatures are priced at the price-point of Kingdom Death resin figures. Which are pretty much at the high end already.
Yup. I made the 60 pledge. I am/was more then willing to pledge higher but the higher pledges don't seem worthwile at the moment.
The one with the models might have been if it included the limited edition deck but since that's in the other one its 65 dollars +11 shipping for 3 models which seems far out of line on pricing.
A pity that the only way to get the models and the deck is to go for the 225 dollar one (which also has 44 shipping).
Some lower goals or the ability to add the deck/models on would have been nice.
Well the've only just gone live so there is time for things to improve
(the KD dragon king only showed up at 350K after all, LOL)
I did drop them a question about how big the books were intended to be, but there response was we don't have this nailed down yet (not even a rough estimate) so I wonder how much detail if much at all has been planned so far.
Maybe the intend to do most/all in the year before delivery which would be a bit concerning
Actually if they're creating it from scratch not enough time, writing a decent RPG from scratch takes time for testing, retesting, balancing etc
could be ok if they've got working rules done already (as they have got a good background already) and it would be book design, writing & art and integrating everything
It is kind of a long way, but it also fits in with Wyrd's GenCon being their major release time.
Something similar to Evil Baby Orphanage will probably happen. They will get funded, and then the product will likely be ready before September 2013, and ship during that time period, but for those lucky enough to go to GenCon next year, they will be able to pick up their main stuff early (You could pick up your copy of EBO at GenCon 2012).
I realize the 65 bucks for three minis is steep, and I agree. At the moment though Miss Terious is 20 to 40 dollars on eBay, since you could only get her through GenCon orders. I'm not saying that's a fair way to price your mini, and in fact you could do well to bring that down by giving basically stating a decent price (though 21.50 or so isn't uncommon amongst some minis anymore).
I haven't backed yet, but I will probably go for the Living Room Gamer so I can get the exclusive fate deck and pick up the 2 other minis, once they're made available in stores.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Actually if they're creating it from scratch not enough time, writing a decent RPG from scratch takes time for testing, retesting, balancing etc
could be ok if they've got working rules done already (as they have got a good background already) and it would be book design, writing & art and integrating everything
I'm assuming Mack Martin has been hard at work since joining Wyrd this summer Something about 4 to 5 months of resting on his laurels doesn't seem right
Edit the second: Feth me, I didn't read close enough... the archivist is the third mini...
Hey if you look at it this way, if you back the project early, you'll get 4 minis for a 65 dollar price increase That's a "little" better...
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Actually if they're creating it from scratch not enough time, writing a decent RPG from scratch takes time for testing, retesting, balancing etc
could be ok if they've got working rules done already (as they have got a good background already) and it would be book design, writing & art and integrating everything
I gotta say, I find it incredibly worrisome that they might have almost nothing in the pipe, so to speak. At the same time, unless the art is recycled, they surely have done something on this project.
Very true though, that an RPG takes a lot of time to work on, a heck of a lot longer then the most of a year the delivery date implies. That's one reason I find the lack of specifics so puzzling: to have all those books bound and shipped they have to be well into the design phase... but they have no idea how big the books are and so on? Huh?
I have to be honest and say that I'm INCREDIBLY disappointed in their pledge levels.
As a Malifaux player and not a huge RPGer, I would have pledged this for any exclusive minis and fate decks if only so I could read through the RPG. But now, there is no "sweet spot" pledge level that includes all of the exclusives. that, for me, is really, really, really frustrating.
I pledged a dollar and posted in the comments section saying as much, but I'll reiterate how disappointed I am that I can't get the limited Fate Deck and SE Miniature for any cheaper than $225.
Incidentally, the notion that the levels pre-suppose a bunch of stretch goals runs into something they have under "Rewards"
Rather than bury you under a pile of cloth maps and t-shirts, we've decided to take a new approach. We want to focus all of our production effort on giving you a few high-production value rewards that we hope you will treasure for years to come. Instead of swag destined for the closet, we want to create trophies with reserved places on your shelves.
Now, I'm not sure that this statement precludes stretch goals, but it doesn't sound like they are trying to stoke the fires of desire for them.
I've been waiting on this one and have jumped in to get Miss terious. It does make the KD kickstarter look a lot more attractive, even before the stretch goals were added in, KD seems to give you more in the box. This may just mean I'm spending a lot more than I planned and do both...
To those that are worrying about the jump in price, the rulebook one actually makes sense.
If you look at the Pathfinder Core Rulebook it's 50 bucks for a hard cover book. You're paying 50 bucks for the special edition hard cover rules and then 15 for their special edition fate deck, which will most likely be like the Retro fate deck or the puppet wars deck which are 11 to 12 dollars, treat it as special edition mark up...
Rather than bury you under a pile of cloth maps and t-shirts, we've decided to take a new approach. We want to focus all of our production effort on giving you a few high-production value rewards that we hope you will treasure for years to come. Instead of swag destined for the closet, we want to create trophies with reserved places on your shelves.
While I agree with the concept of "Less is More" that they seem to be aiming for, none of the goals really seem to include all the kickstarter exclusive stuff without spending a small fortune on the books in the process. Even though this kickstarter is all about the RPG books they really should consider a lower level goal that does focus on the exclusive items or at the very least add these items as opitional add-ons and create a $10-30 pleage level, this would attrach some non-RPG gamers who only want the minis or other stuff.
Incidentally, even presuming (arguendo) that there will be stretch goals, I really find the argument that the pricing reflects a presumption that they will be there to be a poor one.
Stretch goals are meant to be "priced" such that the cash beyond the original goal justifies them. If they are already priced into the base box, then either the stretches should be crazy fast, or they should already be in it... since, after all, you've already covered it with your base pledge.
Beyond that, saying "it's priced to reflect eventual stretch goals" is another way of saying that what is actually in the pledge doesn't justify the pledge level.
Seriously, let's look at a thematically similar product, Kingdom Death. I hate to beat that horse, but they have similar elements of non-traditional horror and they are both 45 day campaigns ending within a week of each other (I think).
Compare the base $100 Kingdom Death game;
The game is available to backers starting at the $100 level and contains:
27 ( + 12 ) = 39 Total, unique highly detailed plastic miniatures ( following this is a quick list of the miniature break down )
Full Color Story & Rule Book
2' x 3' Game board
6, 10 Sided Dice
1 6 Sided Hit Location Die
100 2"x2" Gear Cards
75+ Monster AI Cards
75+ Monster Hit Location Cards
75+ Resource Cards
25 Innovation Cards
10 Location Tiles
Survivor Record Sheets
Settlement Record Sheets
Miniatures included in the base game:
4 Starting Survivor miniatures
4 Armor Kits: rawhide, lion, leather, phoenix. Each kit is two female and two male models with interchangeable parts.
7 Monsters - Lion, Phoenix, Antelope, Butcher, Kingsmen, Kings Hand, Watcher
Over 350 cards, 27 miniatures, tiles, record sheets, story book and rule book and so on and so on.
Now, let's remember, that's the base game (the +12 is from stretch goals, so don't consider that).
Unless you have no interest at all in miniatures, the KD value for money is just so much greater...
I wasn't justifying the price by assuming it predicted future stretch goals. I was simply suggesting it as a probable reason. It's a poor reason because I can't really see any other reason.
$60 for an RPG sourcebook is on the high end of par these days.
$65 for three miniatures worth ~$40 is unreasonable.
Linkdead wrote: In my opinion they have programmed in the extra cost of future stretch goals into the pledge prices.
If that's the case, then man...seems a bit disingenuous to me.
Like I said before: all I ever look for in these is a nice "sweet spot" pledge level that includes all the KS exclusive pieces. This just doesn't have it without getting redundant (two copies of the books) and including something that I simply have no interest in (that burlap sack).
I'm probably being overly picky, but man. It's not rubbing me the right way is all.
I put in a $60 pledge to reserve a Miss Terious mini, but honestly I only did it because I know I can back out later if I change my mind. I wanted to pick up the base rulebook just to read through the background, but at $60 I'm not so sure. Then again, I've wasted way more than that on stupid purchases from GW.
The 125$ Living room package doesnt seem out of line at all.
Both books bound into a single hardcover book, a special fate deck, and then both the softcover books as well.
The Dining room package is a little off, but not too much when you consider what people pay for nightmare edition models, and this model will likely go for stupid amounts on ebay.
cincydooley wrote: I'll reiterate how disappointed I am that I can't get the limited Fate Deck and SE Miniature for any cheaper than $225.
Yikes.
Yeah, I love Wyrd's products, but the lack of flexibility and mutually exclusive lower levels has thrown me off. I'll be putting down for a rulebook combo, but am not really happy with the lack of add-ons/general inflexibility of what they have to offer. I'll probably add on to that later, but for now, I'm kind of deflated-- not annoyed, but disappointed, when I was really enthused about this...
However, the video was interestingly done- definitely encouraging.
So, there is an update up and... it's for backers only. Heh, that's a new one.
A little birdie whispered in my ear that the update is;
November 28th - over 50% of funding goal
Hi everyone!
Day One is coming to a close, so it's time for the Daily Update. First off - Thanks to everyone for your awesome support!
Next is a quick note on Stretch Goals. Stretch goals are in the works, but we won't start releasing them until Friday (11/30) at 5:00 p.m. PST, when our "Miss Terious Early Bird" period ends.
Finally, a housekeeping note - we'll be doing one update every day around 4-5 p.m. PST, so if the updates get to be too much, go ahead and unsubscribe and check in on us at your leisure. It's going to be an action packed Kickstarter though, so don't fall behind!
While I'm pleasantly surprised to see that this project has reached its goal in less than a day, the first update telling us that stretch goals will not be added until Friday seems a bit counter-productive and may hurt the project.
Here's hoping that the $125 pledge is given a lot of free stuff, I'm having a somewhat hard time justifying this one.
I am hoping what they add to the kickstarter makes it more worthwhile to take for each different pledge level.
I can't figure out the levels though. Should have been one to get the Hardback version of the rules + Fate Deck + some of the mini's. Getting a doubled up set of rules makes no sense because a lot of people wouldn't want two copies, and the only way to get a hardback rulebook plus the miniatures is to go for the $225 level.
adhuin wrote: Any Backer want to spill beans on newest & first update?
Hopefully this 'backers- only' isn't a trend. It's hard to get hyped up on product, if you can't see any news.
This is the (only) update on the ks page, hope that's what you mean:
November 28th - over 50% of funding goal
Hi everyone!
Day One is coming to a close, so it's time for the Daily Update. First off - Thanks to everyone for your awesome support!
Next is a quick note on Stretch Goals. Stretch goals are in the works, but we won't start releasing them until Friday (11/30) at 5:00 p.m. PST, when our "Miss Terious Early Bird" period ends.
Finally, a housekeeping note - we'll be doing one update every day around 4-5 p.m. PST, so if the updates get to be too much, go ahead and unsubscribe and check in on us at your leisure. It's going to be an action packed Kickstarter though, so don't fall behind!
Fenriswulf wrote: I can't figure out the levels though. Should have been one to get the Hardback version of the rules + Fate Deck + some of the mini's. Getting a doubled up set of rules makes no sense because a lot of people wouldn't want two copies, and the only way to get a hardback rulebook plus the miniatures is to go for the $225 level.
Strangeness.
While I understand the thought of being "forced" to have two sets of the rule for the deck, I thought their levels made perfect sense.
Living Room because you sit on coaches and comfy chairs to RPG in a laid back setting, not around a grid table....
Dining Room because you do sit around a table and utilize miniatures in your RPG session...
Game Room because you combine it both in the sense that it's all very important to you...
Maybe I just got it because I am (was) a Living Room RPGer who also plays Malifaux and other TT games.
Was sort of interested in this until I saw pledge level needed for the special edition sculpt. Looking through other successful gaming Kickstarters, this seems to be a step backwards.
Don't think I'd get much RPGaming out of it, but I would've loved a $10,- pdf for the fluff.
Guess I'll have to wait for the .. um .. internet to offer one
But for a RPG-Kickstarter it seems very scarce. Others such as Numenera had all kind a good things, character creation Apps, Pdfs, Exclusive signed Hardbacks, adventures, accessories, etc..., all pretty much mixable as you'd like to have it. Even retailer bundles for stores, etc.. .
The whole things seems like a very ... 1980s approach to RPGs.
Dainty Twerp wrote:
While I understand the thought of being "forced" to have two sets of the rule for the deck, I thought their levels made perfect sense.
Living Room because you sit on coaches and comfy chairs to RPG in a laid back setting, not around a grid table....
Dining Room because you do sit around a table and utilize miniatures in your RPG session...
Game Room because you combine it both in the sense that it's all very important to you...
Maybe I just got it because I am (was) a Living Room RPGer who also plays Malifaux and other TT games.
What about those of us who play at a games room table and want a hardback version of the rules, a fatedeck, and perhaps the limited edition sculpt and one or two other miniatures without having to shell out $225 to get it? I am not seeing why those who use a Dining Room get the softcover option over the hardcover one. Surely they can do a minimised Games Room one where you can get the above. Or perhaps a trade back scheme of some sort.
Not very sure it's worth it either, but I signed up nonetheless, but I;m still doubting to be honest, might very well be that I decide to back out after some thought, it seems to be somewhat lacklustre indeed compared to some other kickstarters around.
On the other hand, it is a Miss terious mini which will be able to tie my Ortega's and Lady Justice together quite nicely, dang it, choices. BUt I do agree, it's not the best kickstarter so far, maybe it'll pick up during it's run, if not, I might very well bow out before it ends aswell.
Sadly folks, we're not going to see any update on stretch goals, though we might see updates about ala carte stuff, until Friday at like 1:00 AM GMT... I'm sure that the backers would have no problem posting any backer only updates (which I believe is a kickstarter thing and not a Wyrd thing, because I couldn't see some updates on my phone for EFT because I wasn't logged in as my account that backed it.
On that note: It might be a good time to pimp the latest Dakka Painting Challenge, where you can snag some cool digs and even a Miss Terious or Santana Ortega which would make nice stand in models for a Through the Breach game
Cyporiean wrote: Alf, none of our updates were backers only except the one to get Backer Avatars and the one with the link to download the Backers PDF Rules.
It also doesn't default to 'Backers Only' when you make an update.
Also have pledge for this one so I can get the updates but it is not exciting at all. Was hoping for lower pledges levels and for options you could add to that pledge.
After checking out what the maifaux books sell for online in the UK (for a guestimate on what this could eventually go for) I've decided to pull out as I was really just interested in this for the background
It looks like it will be cheaper to get it retail (& I might not need both books for that either)
If stuff appears later on I might change my mind again, but a single mini just isn't enough to keep me in (if it had been a $20 discount instead that would have been different
You can't compare a mini game and a RPG for pricing. As a teacher and a college student, its clear that printing is EXPENSIVE. You simply cannot buy a 140+ page, color printed book for less than $50. (Most brand new textbooks are $100+ these days; yes that includes your crappy high school textbooks you were using once upon a time.)
Plastic figures we know can be made very cheaply--most of us had 'little green army men' as we grew up. Maybe you were like me a made plastic model kits too. ANd we're aware of the Bones KS.
No, you need to compare RPG books with other books. Eden is doing their Indiegogo book for 50 Euro, Carnivale's was $50, so the book looks about right.
drazz wrote: You can't compare a mini game and a RPG for pricing. As a teacher and a college student, its clear that printing is EXPENSIVE. You simply cannot buy a 140+ page, color printed book for less than $50. (Most brand new textbooks are $100+ these days; yes that includes your crappy high school textbooks you were using once upon a time.)
Plastic figures we know can be made very cheaply--most of us had 'little green army men' as we grew up. Maybe you were like me a made plastic model kits too. ANd we're aware of the Bones KS.
No, you need to compare RPG books with other books. Eden is doing their Indiegogo book for 50 Euro, Carnivale's was $50, so the book looks about right.
Now the next step, yeah, that's steep.
Huh? Where did you get the idea that books are this expensive?
Privateer Press puts out the Prime Mk.II and Primal Mk.ii books, full (in fact, overflowing) color, 248 pages, $29.99, softcover.
Wizards of the Coast's Dungeons and Dragons Players Handbook (4th edition), color, 318 pages, $34.95, hardcover.
Textbooks are expensive because you can compel people to buy them and they have very small overall markets, but mostly the compulsion bit. Books that are sold without the expectation that people will be told to buy them for a class or whatnot, that is, that actually have to appeal to people to choose to buy them, have to be attractive.
Heck, at my elbow is a copy of Astro City Confession*, a trade paper back (that is, a giant softcover comic book), pretty much the most expensive possible form of printing (super high tolerances, high quality paper and intense color every page), and it's 208 pages for $19.95!
And... plastic figures are cheap to produce? Waaa? Cheap once you have the increadibly expensive molds, sure. But the trick is, you know, getting the molds...
*Incidentally, one of the greatest super hero stories ever written.
Oh I know printings not cheap (academic books I use at work are easily £100 or more),
and if the base level had been the hardcover 2 in one then fine the KS might have made sense for me,
but as they're splitting the game into 2 books I may be able to get away with only buying one at (discount) retail for the background (maybe not), and going down that route also means no shipping cost
The other thing you have to do is compare it to other released RPG books.
Wizards of The Coast Player's Guide and Dungeon Master's Guide: 544 pages for both (320 for PHB and 224 for DMG), full-color, hardcover: 34.95 each = 69.90 USD
Paizo's Pathfinder Core Rules: 576 pages, full-color, hardcover, all information contained for Players and GMs = 49.99 USD
Privateer Press's Iron Kingdoms Full Metal Fantasy RPG: 359 pages, full-color, hardcover, all information contained for Players and GMs = 60.00 USD
White Wolf's New World of Darkness: 224 pages, greyscale, hardcover all information contained for players and GMs = 24.99 USD (add 34.99 for any of the major specifics like Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, etc...)
So Wyrd is giving you 2 full color rulebooks of at least 150 full color pages (if the Malifaux rulebooks are any indication to go by) for 60 dollars. Comparing that to ANY other role playing game system and you're finding yourself very much in the middle of pricing. Release prices of these books are probably going to be comparable to their Malifaux books and WoTC's PHB and DMG (35 bucks).
The other thing that is being brought up is the price of the minis. I agree some of them are a tad expensive for what you're getting, but without seeing the sprues, we're only guessing. Wyrd's new plastics are very similar to GW plastics in feel, look, and workability. Looking at their single sprue plastic models like Mr. Tannen and Mr. Graves, they run 11 dollars a model, but these are single pose with swapable arms (Tannen can swap out a knife for a card, and Graves can have either a left arm with a giant 4x4 fence post, or a fist). So we're being given 2 multi pose models, and a special edition modele, which means they will probably be 1 main sprue with an options sprue, you're looking at I'll say 30 bucks for both of those. I can't find my pricing for the bigger models from GenCon, but I believe Lazarus and the Rail Golem were 30 to 40 bucks for a larger model (about the size of a Warjack and probably close to what Hanna is). Which means you're getting what they put up there.
Most money for models I believe is still mostly wrapped up in the cost for making the molds.
I've been openly pining for a Malifaux RPG since the day I first opened the rulebook for the mini's game. I love the setting and background.
Sadly, they've priced me out of this one. I find their levels to be ridiculous.
I'll keep watching it, because I may want to find someone who can get me one of those dolls for my daughter (depending on the cost), but I suspect that's all I'll be getting from this KS.
Alfndrate wrote: The other thing you have to do is compare it to other released RPG books.
Wizards of The Coast Player's Guide and Dungeon Master's Guide: 544 pages for both (320 for PHB and 224 for DMG), full-color, hardcover: 34.95 each = 69.90 USD
Paizo's Pathfinder Core Rules: 576 pages, full-color, hardcover, all information contained for Players and GMs = 49.99 USD
Privateer Press's Iron Kingdoms Full Metal Fantasy RPG: 359 pages, full-color, hardcover, all information contained for Players and GMs = 60.00 USD
White Wolf's New World of Darkness: 224 pages, greyscale, hardcover all information contained for players and GMs = 24.99 USD (add 34.99 for any of the major specifics like Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, etc...)
So Wyrd is giving you 2 full color rulebooks of at least 150 full color pages (if the Malifaux rulebooks are any indication to go by) for 60 dollars. Comparing that to ANY other role playing game system and you're finding yourself very much in the middle of pricing. Release prices of these books are probably going to be comparable to their Malifaux books and WoTC's PHB and DMG (35 bucks).
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to illustrate here. As offered, the pledge levels are giving you something comparable to paying full retail on comparable products, or maybe a small discount... with a payment almost a full year in advance.
That's something often forgotten: as my Corporations professor liked to say, "Money today is worth more then Money tomorrow". That's a critical difference between an pre-order and kickstarter: I have a pre-order with Amazon for the new God of War game, have for months now. I haven't been charged a penny, and won't be, until it actually ships. Keeping that money in my pocket gives me something: potential. I can invest that money and produce more money, among other things. So any time you pay ahead of time you're actually paying more then it seems, because you're paying the opportunity costs.
As the pledges exist now, looking only at the base pledge, not the vague promise of "stretch goals" adding value, why would I commit money now, rather then wait til it's released to retail outlets where I can get it at a discount at my leisure? I'm not talking about deep internet retailers, but even simple brick and mortar stores that have periodic sales.
Alfndrate wrote: The other thing that is being brought up is the price of the minis. I agree some of them are a tad expensive for what you're getting, but without seeing the sprues, we're only guessing. Wyrd's new plastics are very similar to GW plastics in feel, look, and workability. Looking at their single sprue plastic models like Mr. Tannen and Mr. Graves, they run 11 dollars a model, but these are single pose with swapable arms (Tannen can swap out a knife for a card, and Graves can have either a left arm with a giant 4x4 fence post, or a fist). So we're being given 2 multi pose models, and a special edition modele, which means they will probably be 1 main sprue with an options sprue, you're looking at I'll say 30 bucks for both of those. I can't find my pricing for the bigger models from GenCon, but I believe Lazarus and the Rail Golem were 30 to 40 bucks for a larger model (about the size of a Warjack and probably close to what Hanna is). Which means you're getting what they put up there.
Most money for models I believe is still mostly wrapped up in the cost for making the molds.
Edit: Ninja'd but my point still stands lol.
Again, you're comparing retail products to kickstarter products: comparing like with like, kickstarter with kickstarter, why is Adam Poots giving you such a better deal, when he is literally, a one man company operating out of his home in Brooklyn, compared to Wyrd, which is an established company?
There can't seriously be an argument about quality, since KD, Dreamforge and others are clearly not radically inferior (and, let's be realistic, Wyrd sculpts have their ups and downs, so there is a good chance the comparison will not be to Wyrd's benefit).
I'm not saying that this deal won't eventually be a good one. I'm saying that it's another example of a company banking on the stretch goals to actually make their original offerings good deals.
Just pledged at the $60 level. That seems about right for two rulebooks. Probably will not jump to the $125 level, as others have said, that's a bit steep.
My point about the price of books and the models is that people are complaining about the price of them. Yes, it sucks that there isn't an addons option at the moment (since I'd like the Hannah model AND the fate deck for less than 225, cause I can pick up the minis once they're released, and I don't really care about the wicked doll), but at the same time, I think that after the Bones kickstarter, both companies and backers are banking on stretch goals, I know On the Lamb was banking on their stretch goals for their most recent kickstarter.
As to not pledging now vs buying it once released, there's nothing stopping you. The project is currently going to be funded, you're right there is no incentive for you to pledge at the moment. I'm pledging because I like having cool fate decks for Malifaux, I love RPG games and the fluff of Malifaux, and honestly I'm backing the company because they're currently giving more fun with my hobby than any other established company out there.
Everyone has their reasons for donating. If they open up an addons that allows you to pick up fate decks on the cheap, or Hannah for a decent price, then the 125 becomes that sweet spot with a little addition for the extra you want. I'd personally pay 125 for the 3 rule books, the fate deck, and then add on Hannah, that's currently less than what I've pledged to get what I want.
And since it's currently sitting at 54,494, it's going to start hitting those first few stretch goals with no problems (assuming Wyrd doesn't do something stupid like adjust their goals based on the first 24 hours of pledging).
And my comment on the models was also based on the fact that you're picking up a special edition model which will ONLY be released through this kickstarter (at the moment), so they've got to get people to pick those pledge levels that give Hannah so they can pay the artists, the scupltors, and for the mold. And I'll grant you that there are weird sculpts for Wyrd, but at the same time the plastics have been almost perfect (Hungering Darkness has a big line down his middle). Eric has already stated that they're eating a chunk of cash on the shipping (they're being charged ridiculous amounts that most of the overseas people can attest to on Wyrd's forums), and that there are already considerable discounts on the special edition stuff.
I'm not white knighting for this kickstarter, yes I'm a Henchman, but I agree there are plenty of issues with the kickstarter namely
1) The lack of varied low and high end reward tiers
2) Weird pricing jump on one of the reward tiers
3) Not advertising the 5 dollar tier (get preview access) and the 500+ tier (extras galore)
Thankfully they are avoiding the standard pointless low level "give us 5$ and we'll include your name on a website no-one will ever find or on page xxx
On a cost analysis of books (which seems to have been done to death, it works out as being good value for money.
Clearly they'll be OK in terms of making their money on this one, but it is a bit troubling to see a lot of 'negative press' on something that I thought would be a bit more universally loved (strong core group of supporters) and better run...
Alfndrate wrote: (assuming Wyrd doesn't do something stupid like adjust their goals based on the first 24 hours of pledging).
This, I dearly hope they aren't as stupid to do that. It can and will kill a project. I'd rather see them go "Well, here's what you guys have unlocked so far!" instead of well, "Pledge harder bitches!"
Alfndrate wrote: My point about the price of books and the models is that people are complaining about the price of them. ... at the same time, I think that after the Bones kickstarter, both companies and backers are banking on stretch goals, I know On the Lamb was banking on their stretch goals for their most recent kickstarter.
... I'm pledging because I like having cool fate decks for Malifaux, I love RPG games and the fluff of Malifaux, and honestly I'm backing the company because they're currently giving more fun with my hobby than any other established company out there.
...
And my comment on the models was also based on the fact that you're picking up a special edition model which will ONLY be released through this kickstarter (at the moment), so they've got to get people to pick those pledge levels that give Hannah so they can pay the artists, the scupltors, and for the mold....
These are all well taken, but they highlight just why they are problems: in the end, your pledge is not so much an investment or a pre-order, but a donation. You like them, you want them to do well, so you are happy to get less value for money. It's no sin, but relying on your potential investors to take one in the wallet for you has consequences.
There is no doubt that companies are hoping the first few stretch goals will bring their pledges up to par: the problem is that I find this very counterproductive. The campaign is a bit over 12 hours old, and there are already people talking about the bad taste they are getting. Will the campaign still do well? Sure, in that it'll make more then its original funding goals, but is that the extent of doing well?
Why is it that a guy in Brooklyn (Adam Poots) can put together such a great deal for $100, but Wyrd, a company with, you know, actual staff and stuff, leaves everyone saying "okay, it's not a great deal, but..."?
We see the results of this: Kingdom Death: Monster was funded ($30,000) in 75 minutes. With a campaign that started at midnight on Thanksgiving, so pretty much the world other then the US was asleep and the US was turkey-drunk. How long did it take Wyrd, who launched in the early evening to make that same $30,000?
Beyond that, there is just some weird stuff going on (no pun intended). Announcing there will be no stretch goals till Friday as the first update... which is backers-only? Who does that? Why would you do that?
It's not that I'm happy to get less value for my money, I would rather pay 125 dollars for the Living Room Gamer and then pay for Hannah than I would for the 225 I have pledge. I'm trying to get friends in on my 225 pledge, take the hardcover book, the fate deck, and Hannah, and give them the 2 separate books, the multi-pose minis, and then give the wicked doll to my cousin, or keep it (cause I know my friends don't want it).
That way I get what I want and what I feel is fair for my pledge money.
There will always be dissenters, yes Wyrd is getting a lot of flak for this that they rightly deserve, there are issues like the ones I stated, the lack of a pdf copy of the rules (Look at OTL's EFT kickstarter which pumps out a new beta/playtest ruleset every Friday), and the inherent lack of communication on their own boards about this. Looking at the Kickstarter thread, a thread I'm pretty sure you've posted in (or it's just coincidence that a Buzzsaw posted in there ) you can see the lack of responses from the staff. In that thread there are 2 posts besides the OP. The first is from Eric Johns about the pricing and the second is from Ratty the Rules Marshal about a forum signature saying that you backed Through the Breach.
As to the KD kickstarter, I don't know why the deal is so much "better" than Wyrd's for this. Like it has been stated, book printing blows. EFT could only offer a printed rulebook if they got 300 orders. We didn't have that many backers, and most people wanted a pdf copy of the rules as it is. This game literally relies on it's book. It's not a miniatures wargame nor is it a board game (which have been wildly successful if you look at Zombicide, Sedition Wars, etc...) Board games appeal to a lot more people than an RPG would, maybe that's why. Yes Kingdom Death is a lot of cheesecake, and it's kinda gruesome though if I remember correctly, that's the company with that multi-boobed Wet Nurse right? His stuff always goes fast, something like this isn't to be unexpected.
The problem I see between the Wyrd kickstarter and Kingdom death is the same difference I saw with Tectonic Craft Studios, it's a 1 or 2 man operation that gets inundated with it's own popularity and becomes bombarded with trying to fill orders when they don't have the staff to do so, it took me several months to get a pressed wood laser cut tournament tray that was rife with bad craftsmanship and still BARELY fits together. I'm not saying that KD is going to put out a crappy product, I'm saying that in the long run, the establish company hopefully should be able to handle their own success better.
As to the updates, you didn't read what you quoted very well There will be daily updates near Wyrd's quitting time (4 to 5pm PST), but nothing on stretch goals till after the early pledge. I would send out a quick update today, and say hey, "This is changing, we weren't expecting this."
Alfndrate wrote: My point about the price of books and the models is that people are complaining about the price of them. ... at the same time, I think that after the Bones kickstarter, both companies and backers are banking on stretch goals, I know On the Lamb was banking on their stretch goals for their most recent kickstarter.
... I'm pledging because I like having cool fate decks for Malifaux, I love RPG games and the fluff of Malifaux, and honestly I'm backing the company because they're currently giving more fun with my hobby than any other established company out there.
...
And my comment on the models was also based on the fact that you're picking up a special edition model which will ONLY be released through this kickstarter (at the moment), so they've got to get people to pick those pledge levels that give Hannah so they can pay the artists, the scupltors, and for the mold....
These are all well taken, but they highlight just why they are problems: in the end, your pledge is not so much an investment or a pre-order, but a donation. You like them, you want them to do well, so you are happy to get less value for money. It's no sin, but relying on your potential investors to take one in the wallet for you has consequences.
There is no doubt that companies are hoping the first few stretch goals will bring their pledges up to par: the problem is that I find this very counterproductive. The campaign is a bit over 12 hours old, and there are already people talking about the bad taste they are getting. Will the campaign still do well? Sure, in that it'll make more then its original funding goals, but is that the extent of doing well?
Why is it that a guy in Brooklyn (Adam Poots) can put together such a great deal for $100, but Wyrd, a company with, you know, actual staff and stuff, leaves everyone saying "okay, it's not a great deal, but..."?
We see the results of this: Kingdom Death: Monster was funded ($30,000) in 75 minutes. With a campaign that started at midnight on Thanksgiving, so pretty much the world other then the US was asleep and the US was turkey-drunk. How long did it take Wyrd, who launched in the early evening to make that same $30,000?
Beyond that, there is just some weird stuff going on (no pun intended). Announcing there will be no stretch goals till Friday as the first update... which is backers-only? Who does that? Why would you do that?
I've been fairly critcal of several Kickstarters in the past, and I will continue to do so.
Some things that I think are rather pertanant to consider when comparing this kickstarter to the kickstarter for Kingdom Death is that, Wyrd is a known quanitiy. It's highly unlikely that with the international name that Wyrd has built for themselves over the last several years that they are going to fail to deliver on the project. Simply put the likely hood of them simply running off with the money is approaching 0. Kingdom Death however is a fairly unknown quantity. Sure they have delivered small quantities of things to people over the past 3 years, but they have never before had a project of this size. Who knows what complications they might run into..... If you could go back in time to before either of these Kickstarters started and had asked the average participant in our rather nitch hobby if they had ever heard of Kingdom Death, most of them would say no... There in lies the problem and therein why you can't compare these two projects, simply put its risk. To me atleast risk, or a lack of risk has a certain value with it. The more risk I'm asked to take on the more Its going to take to get me to take that risk.
Now, I'm not saying that I agree with the way the Through the Breach kickstarter is being run. I actually think that their doing a pretty poor job of running it, but in the end I don't think anyone ever listens to my rants. At its core I think that the pledge levels they have now are good and they are probably the sweet spots for this perticular project, unfortunatly for the time being they seem to have left out other options. I tend to think this was done on purpose, and is actually a way for them to, in their minds, keep people from abusing the free mini offer. I highly expect to see the current pledge levels locked on Friday the 30th at 5:00 pm, I then expect them to add more pledge levels as well as stretch goals. Overall I think their going alittle to heavily for the early backers...
Their are a few keys to highly succesful kickstarters. The first is to not alienate anyone, everyone that visits your kickstarter page is a potential backer even if they can't afford to buy your product or prefer to buy it at a FLGS. The second is to have a set of pledge levels and stretch goals that first make people want to invest in the project, but as the project goes on encourages those same backers to increase their pledges.
To be honest I was hoping this would be one of those projects that fails, so that its creators would relize what they missed out on and come back with a better plan. Unfortunatly thats not going to happen.
EricJ;477674 wrote:Yep, the preview forum won't open up until the campaign is finished.
We have updated the kickstarter now that we've funded to let everyone know that we will be posting comprehensive updates every afternoon (between 4-5pst), which includes updated stretch goals, answers to frequent questions, announcements, etc... Also I will confirm that stretch goals will begin once the Miss Terious promotion ends. And no, we won't punish you for pushing the total higher in that time by giving less stretch rewards.
We have someone working full time replying to comments and questions, however, that means full time during business hours. If you ask a question or a stretch goal is hit at Midnight, please understand we're sleeping! (for example)
---------- Post added at 10:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 AM ----------
No PDFs, it's official.
Creator Wyrd Miniatures 11 minutes ago There have been numerous messages coming in about whether PDF's will be available; we thought we'd answer it here since it's probably on a lot of people's minds. At the moment, PDF's are not associated with any reward level on this Kickstarter.
Those are rather sad news. As a handicapped gamer, I use PDFs over printed material as my Nexus 7 tablet is easier to handle and lighter than a gaming book. Really disappointed by this turn of events. :(
Patience, your expectations are moving faster than the campaign is progressing
EricJ;477674 wrote:Yep, the preview forum won't open up until the campaign is finished.
We have updated the kickstarter now that we've funded to let everyone know that we will be posting comprehensive updates every afternoon (between 4-5pst), which includes updated stretch goals, answers to frequent questions, announcements, etc... Also I will confirm that stretch goals will begin once the Miss Terious promotion ends. And no, we won't punish you for pushing the total higher in that time by giving less stretch rewards.
We have someone working full time replying to comments and questions, however, that means full time during business hours. If you ask a question or a stretch goal is hit at Midnight, please understand we're sleeping! (for example)
---------- Post added at 10:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 AM ----------
No PDFs, it's official.
Creator Wyrd Miniatures 11 minutes ago
There have been numerous messages coming in about whether PDF's will be available; we thought we'd answer it here since it's probably on a lot of people's minds. At the moment, PDF's are not associated with any reward level on this Kickstarter.
Those are rather sad news. As a handicapped gamer, I use PDFs over printed material as my Nexus 7 tablet is easier to handle and lighter than a gaming book. Really disappointed by this turn of events. :(
Patience, your expectations are moving faster than the campaign is progressing
So what I got from his update is that... They have no idea what their doing and went into this with Piss Poor Planning.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I stand by my comment that this Kickstarter is as poorly run as their Evil Baby Orphange video was made...
Alfndrate wrote: No, I think that they know where they're going, but I think they're trying to cross the Atlantic in a row boat at night, with a blind navigator.
Even with your much more genorous assesment, this isn't the face the self proclaimed #3 minature company in the world should show...
Alfndrate wrote:As to the KD kickstarter, I don't know why the deal is so much "better" than Wyrd's for this. Like it has been stated, book printing blows. EFT could only offer a printed rulebook if they got 300 orders. We didn't have that many backers, and most people wanted a pdf copy of the rules as it is. This game literally relies on it's book. It's not a miniatures wargame nor is it a board game (which have been wildly successful if you look at Zombicide, Sedition Wars, etc...) Board games appeal to a lot more people than an RPG would, maybe that's why. Yes Kingdom Death is a lot of cheesecake, and it's kinda gruesome though if I remember correctly, that's the company with that multi-boobed Wet Nurse right? His stuff always goes fast, something like this isn't to be unexpected.
No offense, but the $150 KD pledge contains two books, along with dozens of miniatures, from man sized to quite large and hundreds of cards. The basic $125 Wyrd pledge contains two books and three miniatures. If you want the 54 cards you need a different pledge.
So when you say "I don't know why the deal is so much "better" than Wyrd's", do you mean you honestly can't understand how Poots is able to offer such a tremendous value while Wyrd seemingly cannot, or that you honestly do not see the divergence in value between those two product offerings?
I ask sincerly, since without knowing which it is I cannot see how I can meaningfully reply.
Alfndrate wrote:As to the updates, you didn't read what you quoted very well There will be daily updates near Wyrd's quitting time (4 to 5pm PST), but nothing on stretch goals till after the early pledge. I would send out a quick update today, and say hey, "This is changing, we weren't expecting this."
Do me a favor, before I engage in needless speculation as to why you are repeating what I stated and claiming I didn't state it, would you mind explaining either what you think I stated, or what you think the update states? Or is the sum of your quibble that I considered the time of day to be sufficiently irrelevant as to merit no mention?
Buzzsaw wrote:Beyond that, there is just some weird stuff going on (no pun intended). Announcing there will be no stretch goals till Friday as the first update... which is backers-only? Who does that? Why would you do that?
Also I will confirm that stretch goals will begin once the Miss Terious promotion ends. And no, we won't punish you for pushing the total higher in that time by giving less stretch rewards.
Catyrpelius wrote: Buzzsaw, my answer to you would be Risk. With the KD kickstarter I'm taking more of a risk with my money then I am with Wyrd's kickstarter.
An excellent point, and one well worth considering. That said, in all honesty, I don't regard Kingdom Death as a sufficiently new company that worry constrains my purchases. An evaluation that is entirely individual, of course.
By contrast, I would look at a company like JunkRobot, for example. I'm throwing a bit of cash their way, but I freely recognize that they are a far riskier investment then either KD or Wyrd.
That said, I don't think that Poots has consciously included a risk discount. His reputation precedes him, after all.
Buzzsaw wrote: No offense, but the $150 KD pledge contains two books, along with dozens of miniatures, from man sized to quite large and hundreds of cards. The basic $125 Wyrd pledge contains two books and three miniatures. If you want the 54 cards you need a different pledge.
How big are the rulebooks, I'll admit I can't look very much at the KD kickstarter since Kickstarter is work blocked, but Wyrd's stuff isn't.
So when you say "I don't know why the deal is so much "better" than Wyrd's", do you mean you honestly can't understand how Poots is able to offer such a tremendous value while Wyrd seemingly cannot, or that you honestly do not see the divergence in value between those two product offerings?
I ask sincerly, since without knowing which it is I cannot see how I can meaningfully reply.
I don't know how Poots is able to offer such a tremendous value while Wyrd can't. Though like I said, he is offering a board game while wyrd is offering a role playing game, which are two different products
Alfndrate wrote:As to the updates, you didn't read what you quoted very well There will be daily updates near Wyrd's quitting time (4 to 5pm PST), but nothing on stretch goals till after the early pledge. I would send out a quick update today, and say hey, "This is changing, we weren't expecting this."
Do me a favor, before I engage in needless speculation as to why you are repeating what I stated and claiming I didn't state it, would you mind explaining either what you think I stated, or what you think the update states? Or is the sum of your quibble that I considered the time of day to be sufficiently irrelevant as to merit no mention?
Sorry, I was talking about the backer's only update you quoted on page 3 . Everyone is clamoring about lack of updates until Friday, but the backer's only update says they will give us daily updates at 4 to 5 pm PST, which, like I said will probably state something along the lines of hey things are not as expected we will change. Though Eric Johns' post says differently...
Also, how hard is it for a backer to copy and paste as you did?
Catyrpelius wrote: Buzzsaw, my answer to you would be Risk. With the KD kickstarter I'm taking more of a risk with my money then I am with Wyrd's kickstarter.
An excellent point, and one well worth considering. That said, in all honesty, I don't regard Kingdom Death as a sufficiently new company that worry constrains my purchases. An evaluation that is entirely individual, of course.
By contrast, I would look at a company like JunkRobot, for example. I'm throwing a bit of cash their way, but I freely recognize that they are a far riskier investment then either KD or Wyrd.
That said, I don't think that Poots has consciously included a risk discount. His reputation precedes him, after all.
While KD might not be a risk in that they won't disappear with their money. I still view it as a risk as its a small operation, that's only shipped out 5,000 orders over three years. It's very easy for these small operations to become buried under their own sucess and either have horrible delays, shoddy work or not properly estimating costs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also when comparing KD with some of the CMoN kickstarters its not that great of a deal...
Buzzsaw wrote: So when you say "I don't know why the deal is so much "better" than Wyrd's", do you mean you honestly can't understand how Poots is able to offer such a tremendous value while Wyrd seemingly cannot, or that you honestly do not see the divergence in value between those two product offerings?
I ask sincerly, since without knowing which it is I cannot see how I can meaningfully reply.
I don't know how Poots is able to offer such a tremendous value while Wyrd can't. Though like I said, he is offering a board game while wyrd is offering a role playing game, which are two different products
Ah, glad I asked, since I was thinking you meant the other. In a way, I think it correlates with what Catyrpelius mentions: for Kingdom Death, a company that is very well regarded, but in a very, very small niche (since until now the lowest priced mini they produced was $25 a pop). They were a collector's collectable, not mass market, so they needed to front-load the deal.
I think honestly what is happening is that Wyrd knows they are going to do well, so they are probably back loading things: that is, at the end of the campaign for both KD and Wyrd, anyone will look at the offerings and say "yeah, that's a good deal". It's just a question of when it hits that critical mass.
Listen, ultimately, I'm sure this will be a good deal (enough so that I'm hedging my bets by reserving an early pledge to hold a Miss T.), but it's been my experience that kickstarters have 2 main phases of explosive growth: the first day or so, when everyone that was absolutely in love with the project and knew beforehand about it pledges, and the last 2 days or so, where the people that are on the fence look at the bargain and decide to take the plunge.
Frontloading the pledge can increase the initial rush, and puts a lot of stretch goals into the pot for the long, slow portion in the middle of the pledge period (which for both these projects will be the holiday season).
It looks to me like Wyrd is planning on a longer, slower burn. Which... honestly, to me doesn't seem like a good idea. Especially with the holiday break and constraints on cash in the next month.
Meh, who knows?
Alfndrate wrote:Sorry, I was talking about the backer's only update you quoted on page 3 . Everyone is clamoring about lack of updates until Friday, but the backer's only update says they will give us daily updates at 4 to 5 pm PST, which, like I said will probably state something along the lines of hey things are not as expected we will change. Though Eric Johns' post says differently...
No worries. Like I said, it's a strange thing (you might even way weird... ) that they are going to be 100%, 150% past their funding goal, and no stretch goals posted. Again, I think they are backloading. No doubt there is a strategy we simply aren't seeing.
The only thing that really gives pause is that line on the kickstarter page about "Rather than bury you under a pile of cloth maps and t-shirts, we've decided to take a new approach"... that's rather oblique, especially as they include a creepy dolly in their large size pledge level.
Alfndrate wrote:Also, how hard is it for a backer to copy and paste as you did?
I'm not sure what you mean: copy from the kickstarter page? I would think anyone that can see the updates can copy them... Can't you?
A thing that occurred to me while talking about this kickstarter and the early pledge is this:
Offer Miss Terious for a limited time? Why hurt your late adopters, or those that want in once the KS hits that sweet spot... It doesn't make much sense to not show the stretch goals until after she goes away, unless Miss Terious is going to be a free include once the KS hits x dollars, and the early pledgers get 2... idk though... it still doesn't make much sense.
Alfndrate wrote: I wasn't able to last night, or else I would have
Really? You could see the update but couldn't copy it? I got nothing, I have no idea how that could happen. Are you using Chrome, Firefox...? That's the only thing I can think of as causing that. I'm using Firefox, if that's any use.
Alfndrate wrote: I wasn't able to last night, or else I would have
A thing that occurred to me while talking about this kickstarter and the early pledge is this:
Offer Miss Terious for a limited time? Why hurt your late adopters, or those that want in once the KS hits that sweet spot... It doesn't make much sense to not show the stretch goals until after she goes away, unless Miss Terious is going to be a free include once the KS hits x dollars, and the early pledgers get 2... idk though... it still doesn't make much sense.
If this is the case it would make me fairly angry.
I find it kind of funny that instead of selling the game system on its own merits, their instead using limited edition kits for one of their other games to get people to buy in. This makes me wonder about the actual quality of the system.
If by the end of this campaign they don't reveal more about the rule set, I might have to suggest to those following me that this campaing be dropped.
Alfndrate wrote: I wasn't able to last night, or else I would have
Really? You could see the update but couldn't copy it? I got nothing, I have no idea how that could happen. Are you using Chrome, Firefox...? That's the only thing I can think of as causing that. I'm using Firefox, if that's any use.
I was on my phone, I backed the KS, and was following dakka on my phone, but copying text is a pain on my phone that I try to avoid.
the next update I should be able to handle without issue... if I miss one (like if they do any over this weekend, I'll hope someone can copy it).
Alfndrate wrote: Caty, I have heard some super secret information involving a fairly famous Malifaux Podcast, idk what will come of it, but it will be RPG related...
If it was on the Henchman forum I suppose I'll find out about it when I get home later.
Alfndrate wrote: Caty, I have heard some super secret information involving a fairly famous Malifaux Podcast, idk what will come of it, but it will be RPG related...
If it was on the Henchman forum I suppose I'll find out about it when I get home later.
Nope lol, the Henchman forums have been pretty quiet the past few weeks... I got a PM from an OTL person when I asked if someone wanted to be on my Malifaux Cake team...
Gotcha, I wasn't even aware that Malifaux had it's owned or largely its own podcast That being said, and I meen no offense when I say this, but I'd rather hear a review of the rules from someone not invested in either the company or their other game systems.
I know who the go to podcasts for boardgames and minature games are, but is their even one for RPG's?
Catyrpelius wrote: Gotcha, I wasn't even aware that Malifaux had it's owned or largely its own podcast That being said, and I meen no offense when I say this, but I'd rather hear a review of the rules from someone not invested in either the company or their other game systems.
I know who the go to podcasts for boardgames and minature games are, but is their even one for RPG's?
I used to listen to Penny Arcade - DnD podcast for the comedy, and then I did listen to the Wizards of the Coast Podcast for a bit...
Catyrpelius wrote: Gotcha, I wasn't even aware that Malifaux had it's owned or largely its own podcast That being said, and I meen no offense when I say this, but I'd rather hear a review of the rules from someone not invested in either the company or their other game systems.
I know who the go to podcasts for boardgames and minature games are, but is their even one for RPG's?
I don't really listen to podcasts (just not my thing), but '2GMs, 1Mic' has been good to talk to.
Catyrpelius wrote: Gotcha, I wasn't even aware that Malifaux had it's owned or largely its own podcast That being said, and I meen no offense when I say this, but I'd rather hear a review of the rules from someone not invested in either the company or their other game systems.
I know who the go to podcasts for boardgames and minature games are, but is their even one for RPG's?
I don't really listen to podcasts (just not my thing), but '2GMs, 1Mic' has been good to talk to.
I'll have to look into them.
It just bother's me alittle when a company doesn't either post their rules, a rules overview or a cheap quick way for me to get the rules on their kickstarter...
Alfndrate wrote: No, I think that they know where they're going, but I think they're trying to cross the Atlantic in a row boat at night, with a blind navigator.
Which, and correct me if I'm wrong, would be an indicator of poor planning.
Lots of unwarranted justifications here. The fact remains that their pledge levels don't make a ton of sense and certainly have limited appeal to the malifaux player that isn't a huge RPGer.
I still think the books and the two exclusive products people actually give a crap about need to be bundled as their "sweet spot" package. Is anyone on here really excited for that burlap sack doll? Really?
Alfndrate wrote: No, I think that they know where they're going, but I think they're trying to cross the Atlantic in a row boat at night, with a blind navigator.
Which, and correct me if I'm wrong, would be an indicator of poor planning.
I believe that I also said that they dropped the ball on several occasions with this kickstarter...
Lots of unwarranted justifications here. The fact remains that their pledge levels don't make a ton of sense and certainly have limited appeal to the malifaux player that isn't a huge RPGer.
How does the Living Room Gamer or the Core set pledge levels not make sense?
I still think the books and the two exclusive products people actually give a crap about need to be bundled as their "sweet spot" package. Is anyone on here really excited for that burlap sack doll? Really?
This I agree with, the doll is kinda cool, but it's not what I want.
Maybe "don't make sense" was the wrong phrasing. I'll just say it bluntly: splitting up th exclusive products and only offering them together at your highest pledge amount seems to me a shady money-grab.
While KD might not be a risk in that they won't disappear with their money. I still view it as a risk as its a small operation, that's only shipped out 5,000 orders over three years. It's very easy for these small operations to become buried under their own sucess and either have horrible delays, shoddy work or not properly estimating costs.
This is why I won't back Kingdom Death, but I have backed this RPG.
Wyrd has built themselves from one or two interesting, different miniatures (I have an original Pandora, from before the game existed) into a relatively large and successful company. They have been consistently releasing product, creating and meeting demand, and growing and improving their business. As of now this kickstarter is very achievable, with realistic funding and deliverables. They are already at $78K of the $30K goal, so its looking like its doing pretty darn good to me.
However, if this does get into the too much money / overpromise / underdeliver trap, then I may back out of this one. But, with this being a company, they do have a reputation to lose if they do not deliver the product, so it would have to get stupid overambitious before I'd really worry.
Kickstarter is not just about successful funding. Its about being able to successfully deliver the project goal. Breaking funding records is not a desirable thing for every project. Really.
You'll notice that KD & Malifaux gave themselves a much larger lead time than other kickstarter projects, nearly a year in both cases. I expect that both Adam and the Malifaux team did at least a little research before starting these and looked at "worst case" scenarios if the kickstarters pulled in more money than anticipated.
Breotan wrote: You'll notice that KD & Malifaux gave themselves a much larger lead time than other kickstarter projects, nearly a year in both cases. I expect that both Adam and the Malifaux team did at least a little research before starting these and looked at "worst case" scenarios if the kickstarters pulled in more money than anticipated.
Actually I think the Wyrd kickstarter date has more to do with them and Gencon...
Buzzsaw wrote: Oh wow, I totally did not notice... this is scheduled to be released September 2013. That's a... lot of lead time for a project like this... no?
I think a lot of people would be very surprised by how frantic and fast-paced the development of a RPG book is. Working with dozens of freelance writers and artists and with just as many playtesters can be nerve-wracking. Just juggling all those contacts can be rough. I know of a very well-regarded miniatures game supplement that came back from the printers less than a month after it went into editing.
That Wyrd plans to give themselves almost a full year to work on their book does not seem unreasonable, though it may be a conservative estimate. I'd expect that they have their RPG mechanics developed to a level that would be ready for testing. Developers are willing to starve to get their projects going, but artists and writers expect to get paid. I would expect that the majority of that won't happen until after the Kickstarter completes.
Buzzsaw wrote: Oh wow, I totally did not notice... this is scheduled to be released September 2013. That's a... lot of lead time for a project like this... no?
I think a lot of people would be very surprised by how frantic and fast-paced the development of a RPG book is. Working with dozens of freelance writers and artists and with just as many playtesters can be nerve-wracking. Just juggling all those contacts can be rough. I know of a very well-regarded miniatures game supplement that came back from the printers less than a month after it went into editing.
That Wyrd plans to give themselves almost a full year to work on their book does not seem unreasonable, though it may be a conservative estimate. I'd expect that they have their RPG mechanics developed to a level that would be ready for testing. Developers are willing to starve to get their projects going, but artists and writers expect to get paid. I would expect that the majority of that won't happen until after the Kickstarter completes.
I am just speculating, though.
Oh, I realize that development of an RPG is time intensive... which is a reason I'm so confused by the deadline. To me, at the stage you go to kickstarter, you should have the majority of the behind the scenes work on something like that done, like you would go to a VC company with the prototype in hand. I mean, by way of contrast, Dreamforge had the vast majority of their concepts and such done, they were basically at the point they (and by they I mean Mark) couldn't go any farther without a cash infusion to cut molds.
It seems impossible that they wouldn't be really far into the development process. I mean, the next edition of D&D, which has a huge development staff and wads of money involved, isn't rumored to go on-sale til Q1 2014, and they have been working at it for months already.
I'm just perplexed, what exactly is the state of things? Who knows?
Wyrd Miniatures wrote:November 29th - over 280% of funding goal
Hi everyone! Day Two is coming to a close, so it's time for the Daily Update. Thanks for your incredible support!
First, there’ve been a lot of people concerned about losing their Miss Terious if they change their pledge level. We’re happy to say that you can change your pledge at any time, and your Miss Terious is completely safe. It is important to know that if you CANCEL your pledge for any reason, even if it’s just to create a new pledge, the Miss Terious will be forfeit. Check the FAQ’s out here ( www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/backer%20questions%23BackAProj ) if you’re unsure about how to change your pledge without canceling it. And, don’t hesitate to message us if the FAQ’s don’t answer your questions.
Many backers and potential backers are talking about the Project’s reward levels, and that’s good! We want your feedback and suggestions. Our design for the Through the Breach Kickstarter is certainly off the beaten path, and with good reason. The folks in charge of Kickstarter have encouraged all project creators and project backers to be aware that Kickstarter is not a store and they don't want to see it run like one. We've tried to put together a compelling project that needs your help and feedback to succeed, with exclusive and enticing rewards if you choose to participate. Now that we’re funded, our promise is sealed; we will be producing Through the Breach. If you’re excited about the game, but not so much the Kickstarter rewards, we encourage you to get out and support your local game store when we launch the RPG!
Our design for the Through the Breach Kickstarter is certainly off the beaten path, and with good reason. The folks in charge of Kickstarter have encouraged all project creators and project backers to be aware that Kickstarter is not a store and they don't want to see it run like one.
*Snort*
If you’re excited about the game, but not so much the Kickstarter rewards, we encourage you to get out and support your local game store when we launch the RPG!
Hahahaahahaahahahahahahahahahaha *cough**hack*
Fwew... Okay, so... yeah.
Seriously, anyone care to venture a guess why these communications are made "For Backers Only"?
Many backers and potential backers are talking about the Project’s reward levels, and that’s good! We want your feedback and suggestions. Our design for the Through the Breach Kickstarter is certainly off the beaten path, and with good reason. The folks in charge of Kickstarter have encouraged all project creators and project backers to be aware that Kickstarter is not a store and they don't want to see it run like one. We've tried to put together a compelling project that needs your help and feedback to succeed, with exclusive and enticing rewards if you choose to participate.
So, this seems in keeping with the previous statement;
Rather than bury you under a pile of cloth maps and t-shirts, we've decided to take a new approach. We want to focus all of our production effort on giving you a few high-production value rewards that we hope you will treasure for years to come. Instead of swag destined for the closet, we want to create trophies with reserved places on your shelves.
Which, taken together... do rather seem to indicate that there will not be an overabundance of added value here.
Is there any other logical inference to be made?
Edit: also, not to besmirch the fine people at Wyrd, but don't the 2 existing updates seem a bit... corporate? You look at the other kickstarters, and the updates read conversationally, this reads like it was generated by a PR machine. It doesn't really seem to say much of anything, but it uses a fair number of words to do it.
Two references to "feedback" in as many sentences. "We want your feedback and suggestions", "needs your help and feedback"...
If you’re excited about the game, but not so much the Kickstarter rewards, we encourage you to get out and support your local game store when we launch the RPG!
Hahahaahahaahahahahahahahahahaha *cough**hack*
Actually anyone that spends more than a day on Wyrd's forums know that they generally give your local stores a chance at their latest releases before they go for sale on their site. They did this with EBO and let the Vlog brothers get a crack at selling it before Wyrd started selling.
So telling backers that if they don't like the kickstarter, they're more than welcome to support their local stores and buy the RPG through there.
Actually anyone that spends more than a day on Wyrd's forums know that they generally give your local stores a chance at their latest releases before they go for sale on their site. They did this with EBO and let the Vlog brothers get a crack at selling it before Wyrd started selling.
So telling backers that if they don't like the kickstarter, they're more than welcome to support their local stores and buy the RPG through there.
Like they do with all the pre-release stuff they have at gen con that they very very very slowly trickle out through LGS distribution? I got pieces at gen con that have still yet to be released. That, I can assure you, does the LGS exactly zero favors.
If you’re excited about the game, but not so much the Kickstarter rewards, we encourage you to get out and support your local game store when we launch the RPG!
Hahahaahahaahahahahahahahahahaha *cough**hack*
Actually anyone that spends more than a day on Wyrd's forums know that they generally give your local stores a chance at their latest releases before they go for sale on their site. They did this with EBO and let the Vlog brothers get a crack at selling it before Wyrd started selling.
So telling backers that if they don't like the kickstarter, they're more than welcome to support their local stores and buy the RPG through there.
No offense, but if that logic is taken seriously, why have exclusive figures at all, or stretch goals?
I mean, as you've pointed out several times in the past few pages, the prices as they exist are competitive (for the very expensive niche of RPG books), so why not just leave it at that?
For a book project, that's entirely appropriate. The Art of Brom didn't have a crapton of extras, once they had all the development for the editions paid for, they simply said "deal is as good as we can offer, enjoy!"
You know what, I admired them for that. There was a confidence to that approach. But it also was the approach made possible by the fact the product was closed: once the book is done, it's done. No need to develop the rest of a product line.
Is that what we're seeing here? They are beating around the bush like they expect to flush out snakes and it just seems really odd. Odd and corporate.
I mean, the ladies at Darkmire are spending the last 48 hours doing Red Bull and cigarettes (I presume) to be up and online the last 48 hours*, but Wyrd can't spare the staff to update their Kickstarter more then once every 24 hour period?
*Seriously, they are like the little, pervy, engine that could... Lord bless their scantily clad hearts...
No offense, but if that logic is taken seriously, why have exclusive figures at all, or stretch goals?
I mean, as you've pointed out several times in the past few pages, the prices as they exist are competitive (for the very expensive niche of RPG books), so why not just leave it at that?
For a book project, that's entirely appropriate. The Art of Brom didn't have a crapton of extras, once they had all the development for the editions paid for, they simply said "deal is as good as we can offer, enjoy!"
That's admirably honest. Adam has said something similar in regards to the KD project, in that he can't add much else to the base game and still have it make sense as a retail product.
Wyrd's "we're going for quality, not a bunch of frivolous extras like all those other KSs" approach is vaguely insulting to other succesful projects and at least slightly shady. Show us how high quality your product will be. The spotty nature of Wyrd's interior art and minis does not give me confidence that this will inherently be a high quality product.
Alfndrate wrote: Yes, but you paid to go to GenCon, not everyone can afford the trip, ticket, and/or hotel to get to GenCon.
Which is why they offered those exact same deals online during the convention. Invalid argument.
And yet, those same great deals through Wyrd's online store came out weeks late due to the popular demand and shipping constraints. I'm sure there are people overseas waiting for the Dark Debts box to arrive still, but from the words of one of Wyrd's owners they want the LGS to have first official crack at sales before they show up on Wyrd's store.
If you look at Wyrd's store right now, Mei Fang is on her way to retailers and distributors, but won't be available for at least another week or so on Wyrd's store.
They still made them readily available to all far before they were giving the LGS an opportunity to even sell them.
I realize you're a henchman and you're going to defend them until you're blue in the face, but your argument simply doesn't follow, and the fact that there were shipping delays doesn't change that fact.
Also: Wyrd finally responded to my comments in the KS backers section and their response was strangely passive aggressive. I'm going to try and copy it over here.
cincydooley wrote: They still made them readily available to all far before they were giving the LGS an opportunity to even sell them.
I realize you're a henchman and you're going to defend them until you're blue in the face, but your argument simply doesn't follow, and the fact that there were shipping delays doesn't change that fact.
I'm defending them because I pay attention to how they do business, I've stated several times in this thread that there are pieces to this kickstarter that I don't agree with, yet you and Buzzsaw are openly mocking and attacking the company's practices that are easy to find on their forums and that Wyrd makes no effort to hide. I'm trying to be friendly about this dude, but you guys are making it awfully hard to do that.
And as Absolutionis said, Mei Fang a box he picked up at his FLGS, is not available on Wyrd's webstore.
They're missing the whole point, my man. The point is that the RPG would not exist without the miniatures game, yet they are not making it easy for the folks that have more interest in the minis game than the RPG to get the pieces to use in said game.
It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It doesn't make sense. Further, their stubborn adherence to the pledg levels they've set is baffling. Why not put a level in there that grants the buyer the option to have dinner and drinks with th design team at GenCon like Mike McVey did?
Every highly funded Kickstarter I've seen run in this hobby has had a base level ( like abomination for Zombiecide) that is the "benchmark" level. Then higher ones that include nice stuff, like personalized art, etc, build off that. Again, it seems to me that they're simply being stubborn and are trying to reinvent the wheel "their way". Why?
And they're trying toads it all off by calling th stretch goals "thank yous". What is that?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And we're not mocking or attacking. We've both provided reasoned criticism of how they're inexplicably running the campaign.
cincydooley wrote: They still made them readily available to all far before they were giving the LGS an opportunity to even sell them.
I realize you're a henchman and you're going to defend them until you're blue in the face, but your argument simply doesn't follow, and the fact that there were shipping delays doesn't change that fact.
I'm defending them because I pay attention to how they do business, I've stated several times in this thread that there are pieces to this kickstarter that I don't agree with, yet you and Buzzsaw are openly mocking and attacking the company's practices that are easy to find on their forums and that Wyrd makes no effort to hide. I'm trying to be friendly about this dude, but you guys are making it awfully hard to do that.
Not to be pedantic, but they actually did make an "effort to hide" the thing I most openly mocked, their updates. Just a a technical point.
Beyond that... whaa? I haven't specifically mocked their bizarre pseudo-secrecy regarding updates, I just was fascinated by the oddity of it. No, I think I've been pretty clearly mocking their overall conduct in this campaign: because I think it's stupid and underhanded.
I neither know nor care about the degree of dissemination of their practices. A stupid practice is still stupid if it's widely known, and an underhanded technique is no less underhanded for its transparency.
The stuff about supporting FLGSs has all the sincerity of any other kiss-off.
Let's be clear, for people that think the value of the pledge levels is inadequate given the nature of the field, the last update has done... well, basically nothing to reassure such people that their concern is being heard. It's rather pointedly expressed that they ought to reconcile themselves to not being satisfied and look towards retail release instead,
Frankly, I don't actually believe that. I seriously doubt that they have the stones to "go Brom", as it were, and say "yup, what you see is what you get". I would be shocked if they don't add stretch goals, in fact, I would presume that tomorrows update will add multiple items to the mid-level pledges. If only because not doing so would be so brazen.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cincydooley wrote: And we're not mocking or attacking. We've both provided reasoned criticism of how they're inexplicably running the campaign.
In fairness, I mocked a bit there. Because when the answer to "these pledges don't seem to offer commensurate value" is "then don't pledge", what can you do but laugh?
We can get the stuff retail?! Sweet Fancy Moses, a revelation!
cincydooley wrote: They're missing the whole point, my man. The point is that the RPG would not exist without the miniatures game, yet they are not making it easy for the folks that have more interest in the minis game than the RPG to get the pieces to use in said game.
Except that they're not making a minis game. They already have that, it's called Malfiaux. The RPG could have come first, and we'd be having the exact same argument but you would be arguing that the miniatures game wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the RPG. It's not a real solid ground to stand on. I don't think they've missed the point by much. Yes there are missteps on some of the pricing and with communication, but the book deals are priced fairly, the misstep is the mini deals. Which if you're an RPG gamer, hell you can pick up a few rotten bells, a few outcasts, etc... and there you have no need for the new minis.
It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It doesn't make sense. Further, their stubborn adherence to the pledg levels they've set is baffling. Why not put a level in there that grants the buyer the option to have dinner and drinks with th design team at GenCon like Mike McVey did?
They have a level like that, but it gets you a seat at GenCon to play through an adventure with Mack Martin, I'd pay for that if I had the cash for that. Who cares that you can't have drinks with Justin and Mack, you meet them at GenCon, and offer to buy some drinks after the exhibit hall shuts down. Sure you might not get the chance to do that, because they can say no, but it's a lot cheaper to do that.
Every highly funded Kickstarter I've seen run in this hobby has had a base level ( like abomination for Zombiecide) that is the "benchmark" level. Then higher ones that include nice stuff, like personalized art, etc, build off that. Again, it seems to me that they're simply being stubborn and are trying to reinvent the wheel "their way". Why?
Again, they have that. You want personalized art, sure, it just has to be in the book, I'd rather have that than a print that I can lose or get damaged.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And we're not mocking or attacking. We've both provided reasoned criticism of how they're inexplicably running the campaign.
Our design for the Through the Breach Kickstarter is certainly off the beaten path, and with good reason. The folks in charge of Kickstarter have encouraged all project creators and project backers to be aware that Kickstarter is not a store and they don't want to see it run like one.
*Snort*
If you’re excited about the game, but not so much the Kickstarter rewards, we encourage you to get out and support your local game store when we launch the RPG!
Hahahaahahaahahahahahahahahahaha *cough**hack*
Fwew... Okay, so... yeah.
Seriously, anyone care to venture a guess why these communications are made "For Backers Only"?
I'm sorry, where is that level? Maybe you have different access to the Kickstarter than I do? I see nothing on there that offers a seat to play and adventure with Mack Martin.
There's no personalized art pledge, either.
I'm really confused here. D you have different pledge options than the rest of us?
Ahh. I see it. It's part of the super secret "not really a pledge level" section. Just another piece of this campaign that baffles.
Seriously. Why aren't those levels listed to the right with the other 4??
Alf, I think you'd do better to let the legitimate criticisms stand. There are a lot of valid points to it.
Hopefully, Wyrd will prove these points wrong... but your arguing on their behalf is, imo, not helping their case. They need to address the issues raised, and nothing you can say will alleviate that until they do directly.
As it is, this isn't a very attractive thread to be a part of, but it takes two sides to make it that way. Not all the criticism has been polite, but again much of it is valid, and they have addressed almost none of it.
Wyrd noted that they will expand the Kickstarter on Friday. Considering stretch goals have become the de facto standard for these types of Kickstarters, let's see what happens before continuing. Until then, all this circular arguing is not getting anywhere.
They need to address the issues raised, and nothing you can say will alleviate that until they do directly.
Let's be clear, for people that think the value of the pledge levels is inadequate given the nature of the field, the last update has done... well, basically nothing to reassure such people that their concern is being heard. It's rather pointedly expressed that they ought to reconcile themselves to not being satisfied and look towards retail release instead,
Apparently they don't NEED to address anything and plenty of people think the value of these pledge levels is fine because they've raised 3 times their goal in 2 days.
cincydooley wrote: I'm sorry, where is that level? Maybe you have different access to the Kickstarter than I do? I see nothing on there that offers a seat to play and adventure with Mack Martin.
There's no personalized art pledge, either.
I'm really confused here. D you have different pledge options than the rest of us?
Ahh. I see it. It's part of the super secret "not really a pledge level" section. Just another piece of this campaign that baffles.
Seriously. Why aren't those levels listed to the right with the other 4??
I have no idea why the chose to do what they did. I do know that the bitchin going on here is getting on par with the stuff in the BTP thread and that's pretty sad. At the end of the day this project is being run by Wyrd, not Adam Poots or McVey, and whining about "secret pledge sections" and "secret messages to backers" isn't going to change that fact. Decide if what they are offering is worth the money they are asking then either pledge or walk away.
Breotan wrote: Decide if what they are offering is worth the money they are asking then either pledge or walk away.
Discussing merits and flaws are an important part of the these kinds of decision making.
This thread isn't just for true believers, but also for drifters, layabouts and other wanderers, who are curious about the product.
I personally haven't joined any miniature-kickstarter at the start. I've always been enticed to join by the stretch goals and good threads, which have hyped the product for weeks.
What finally turned me down on this project was the miss terious / stretch goals rope-a-dope.
Pledge now on a tier that you aren't fully happy with (yet) to reserve her, or wait till tomorrow and lose the mini, but gain certainty.
Ideal tier system (for me) would have had "Just the Hardcover" tier with optional add-ons for the miniatures and/or extra copies of books.
Well, I guess perception of the Miss Terious varies. I appreciate her being offered in the beginning as a way of rewarding those who jump in and make it work despite not everything being sure. We've all seen the kickstarter where everyone stays on the fence because they are not sure the stretch goals will be met. I can appreciate the gesture towards the people who pledge despite not having met the stretch goals.
Having said that, I don't quite get the pledge levels or the lack of stretch goals but, seeing as at least one other person in my group wants the books I'll let the pledge stand regardless now, whether it'll get upgraded I'm not sure yet. I know I"m a newbie at kickstarts, the dreamforge being my only other one but it seems this kickstart is a bit, well, oddly constructed so to say.
adhuin wrote: What finally turned me down on this project was the miss terious / stretch goals rope-a-dope. Pledge now on a tier that you aren't fully happy with (yet) to reserve her, or wait till tomorrow and lose the mini, but gain certainty.
Ideal tier system (for me) would have had "Just the Hardcover" tier with optional add-ons for the miniatures and/or extra copies of books.
I can understand that position if you are a little strapped for cash around the holiday. If not, you could pledge, wait and see how things shake out over the next week or so and revoke your pledge then should you decide it doesn't meet your expectations. No harm, no foul at that point. I don't know how long it takes Amazon to issue a refund. I've already got a Miss Terious figure built up so it wasn't really an issue for me. As for the tier system they're using... yea... I'm not sure what the hell they're thinking either.
I've pledged now, but as always, you can pull out at any time before it ends. I might, it all depends on the stretch goals. Fickle of me, yes, but $158 is a lot of money for me right now.
As much as I would like to get in on a RPG of the Malfaux world, I won't be getting in on this kickstarter.
I feel like they are trying to be a little too condisending to so called "Backers". To keep my focus semi... civil... I am of course going to keep an eye on it, but from my point of view, there is more wrong with this one then right at the moment, and that they are falling for thier own brand of hype to the point of drinking too much kool aid over this project.
Yes, I get that the game is coolio, but theres a point where common sense has to come into play over the hows and whys.
I feel that they are losing the message in thier own propaganda, and in that, hope that they can overcome the whole, "I know more then you, I'm so special" mentality.
Applaud the idea of a new Malfaux RPG, but hate the way in how it is developing. I especially hate being talked down to. Makes me want to do bad things to the offender like pull of your arm and beat you with it, or just plain ignore you.
At this point in time, with thier distraction of the... " special figures", look more at the product on deck, rather then the "SPECIAL EDITION kool kid figures".
This is for an RPG, that they have a couple of extra guys in there is detracting from what they want to accomplish here. I can get those "Limited Edition figures" for a song and a dance. The real question should be- What are we going to be getting for the game that deserves this much shell game?
And finally, the disingenuous attitude needs to stop. Stop polishing a turd.
Not trying to get a fan club over this one, but I really am hoping that this one comes out OK even though I won't be helping in the Kickstarter.
Alright, this NAKA fellow in the comments says that the 2 core books could very well retail for $40 a piece. Is that possible? Could a soft-cover RPG book cost so much? I imagine it would need a massive 600+ page count or some seriously quality materials for that to be the case and I just don't take on faith that happening here.
cincydooley wrote: I'm sorry, where is that level? Maybe you have different access to the Kickstarter than I do? I see nothing on there that offers a seat to play and adventure with Mack Martin.
There's no personalized art pledge, either.
I'm really confused here. D you have different pledge options than the rest of us?
Ahh. I see it. It's part of the super secret "not really a pledge level" section. Just another piece of this campaign that baffles.
Seriously. Why aren't those levels listed to the right with the other 4??
For anyone that didn't see it (cause Cincydooley missed it too, it's okay)
If you pledge $500 dollars or more, we will contact you within one business day and work out the details of you getting one of the below options. Each additional $250 pledged will gain you an additional super secret reward!
#1 Get automatic entry into the GenCon Canon Campaign.
#2 Get your character drawn and have it included in a RPG book.
#3 Receive your Hannah professionally painted, and have your Kickstarter RPG bok signed by the entire team.
See, there you go. We have your do x with our celebrity y (dinner with McVey, gaming with Mack Martin), your personalized art (I did say it would be in the book, and not an art print, but I will also admit that it's not really personalized though I'm sure you'll get some input on character design, since it is YOUR character).
And as for the retail price you're wondering about Recruittons? With the exception of the Rules Manual, every Malifaux book goes for 35 USD. You could reasonably expect each of those books to retail for a similar price granted it all depends on how thick they are, but if we're expecting 300+ pages per book, it's going to be a royal pain for the mega hardcover version and we'll see a price closer to 50 bucks. Though they're more likely to stay within the confines of what they normally use for printing, so you could expect 150 to 200 full color pages with a "durable" (mine bend, but no rips yet) soft cover similar to their Malifaux rulebooks.
Won't be supporting the kickstarter unless i see something very eye catching. Ill watch it everyday check up on it's progress but i'm just waiting to be impressed frankly.
don't get me wrong i love playing the game but something just seems "off" about this kickstarter. I know that they are busy but they also did hire people to handle the rpg with a few people overseeing them. They have been plotting this kickstarter for quite some time to say they aren't prepared is a tough cup of kool aid to swallow.
im thinking they are waiting to see when they hit that kickstarter slump and slow down. Blow off the dust of their ideas and go "because you guys asked for it! stretch goals!".
Absolutionis wrote: Wyrd noted that they will expand the Kickstarter on Friday. Considering stretch goals have become the de facto standard for these types of Kickstarters, let's see what happens before continuing. Until then, all this circular arguing is not getting anywhere.
Get your common sense and clear lack of nerd rage out of this thread, Mister!
RiTides wrote: Alf, I think you'd do better to let the legitimate criticisms stand. There are a lot of valid points to it.
Hopefully, Wyrd will prove these points wrong... but your arguing on their behalf is, imo, not helping their case. They need to address the issues raised, and nothing you can say will alleviate that until they do directly.
As it is, this isn't a very attractive thread to be a part of, but it takes two sides to make it that way. Not all the criticism has been polite, but again much of it is valid, and they have addressed almost none of it.
That's a good idea, actually.
If nothing else, I've certainly learned that Alfndrate loves him some Wyrd!
RiTides wrote: Alf, I think you'd do better to let the legitimate criticisms stand. There are a lot of valid points to it.
Hopefully, Wyrd will prove these points wrong... but your arguing on their behalf is, imo, not helping their case. They need to address the issues raised, and nothing you can say will alleviate that until they do directly.
As it is, this isn't a very attractive thread to be a part of, but it takes two sides to make it that way. Not all the criticism has been polite, but again much of it is valid, and they have addressed almost none of it.
That's a good idea, actually.
If nothing else, I've certainly learned that Alfndrate loves him some Wyrd!
Currently one of the only companies that is consistently giving me fun games
Breotan wrote: Decide if what they are offering is worth the money they are asking then either pledge or walk away.
Discussing merits and flaws are an important part of the these kinds of decision making.
This thread isn't just for true believers, but also for drifters, layabouts and other wanderers, who are curious about the product.
I personally haven't joined any miniature-kickstarter at the start. I've always been enticed to join by the stretch goals and good threads, which have hyped the product for weeks.
What finally turned me down on this project was the miss terious / stretch goals rope-a-dope.
Pledge now on a tier that you aren't fully happy with (yet) to reserve her, or wait till tomorrow and lose the mini, but gain certainty.
Ideal tier system (for me) would have had "Just the Hardcover" tier with optional add-ons for the miniatures and/or extra copies of books.
Agreed! And more than once already, companies that responded to posted concerns won my business! I only read because I may indeed be interested, and that's why I raise/read both praise and concerns also.
This thread is here to discuss all aspects, from all angles- both the good and the bad, to help people like me decide whether or not to back the project.
Breotan wrote: Alf, you can use the code for my sig as a placeholder if you need to. It links to the kickstarter site and you can replace the artwork once you aren't work blocked.
I can't even see your sig lol. The Kingdom Death one yes, Wyrd? nope lol
The first page should have the basic information though.
Breotan wrote: Decide if what they are offering is worth the money they are asking then either pledge or walk away.
Discussing merits and flaws are an important part of the these kinds of decision making.
This thread isn't just for true believers, but also for drifters, layabouts and other wanderers, who are curious about the product.
I personally haven't joined any miniature-kickstarter at the start. I've always been enticed to join by the stretch goals and good threads, which have hyped the product for weeks.
What finally turned me down on this project was the miss terious / stretch goals rope-a-dope.
Pledge now on a tier that you aren't fully happy with (yet) to reserve her, or wait till tomorrow and lose the mini, but gain certainty.
Ideal tier system (for me) would have had "Just the Hardcover" tier with optional add-ons for the miniatures and/or extra copies of books.
Agreed! And more than once already, companies that responded to posted concerns won my business! I only read because I may indeed be interested, and that's why I raise/read both praise and concerns also.
This thread is here to discuss all aspects, from all angles- both the good and the bad, to help people like me decide whether or not to back the project.
Yeah, I decided to back it at $60, because I know myself, and know I'll want to try it when it comes out, but have some serious objections with how Wyrd is running their kickstarter. In hopes that constructive criticism might be heard:
-another call for "just the hardcover"- I actually find it pretty contradictory that they made that comment on not wanting their stuff to gain dust in a closet or w/e, but have the only option with LE book also containing a regular one.
-a bit confused that there's no deck add-on option. That's a very steep price point for what I expected to either be automatic or an add-on
-generally a bit more clarity:
• the aforementioned weird secret stretch goals, the delay before revealing stretch goals.
• There's also the rather suspicious numberd but non-limited edition. Typically, the point of the number is that there's a finite printing of them decided upon at the beginning which, when they're out, are out- not that they made them and numbered them until they stopped making htem.
• no clarity about what "special edition" means
• no approximate size/page count (which is more important with an RPG). Same with their puppets.
I really like wyrd as a company, and they've been very honest and responsive about previous errors they've made. Considering the general reception I've seen for their RPG, I'm hoping that they'll continue to show the same thoughtfulness in this KS campaign.
These two goals have already been cleared, and the rewards unlocked for anyone pledging at $125 and above!
$50,000 - Fate Decks will be plastic (similar to the Retro Fate Deck and the Puppet Wars deck)
100,000 - Receive an additional Special Edition Fate Deck
There are more Stretch goals waiting to be reached, so read on to see what Fate may have in store! These rewards also apply to pledges at $125 and above (except for one very special goal that applies to every reward level).
150,000 - One Male or Female Multi-Pose Mini (random gender)
200,000 - A pad of character sheets
250,000 - One Special Edition Hanging Tree mini. This miniature is of the most prominent landmark in all of Malifaux, originally made available at GenCon 2012 (Nightmare Hanging Trees)
250,000 - For all pledges $60 and above receive a Digital Version of the books
Thoughts: Plastic cards seem to be the way for the "special" fate cards. As someone that uses Retro Fate Cards, I'm only slightly okay with this. I suggest you sit for a good hour and just shuffle away... get a good feel all over the cards or else they're slippery lol. A second fate deck means you have 1 for the player and for "communal" fate deck that Mack Martin was talking about in the KS thread on Wyrd's forums. I don't like the random gender, but honestly the multi-pose models are something I'll pick up later, this just means I pick up one less (though I'll probably pick up one for each main pose that could be made). Character sheets are always good, this just prevents me from printing them out lol. And the Hanging trees, a mini I skipped out on lol (Note you can win one in the Dakka Painting Challenge ).
FETHING DIGITAL VERSIONS!!!!!!
There are also FAQ updates on the KS page... which I can't read D:
Hi everyone! It’s not time for the Daily Update, but we’re updating early as Northern California is in the middle of a flood warning and wind advisory and we might lose power any time.
Yes, this means it’s time to reveal Stretch Goals! These two goals have already been cleared, and the rewards unlocked for anyone pledging at $125 and above!
$50,000: Fate Deck cards will be plastic
$100,000: One additional Special Edition Fate Deck
There are more Stretch Goals waiting to be reached, so read on to see what Fate may have in store! These rewards also apply to pledges at $125 and above (except for one very special goal that applies to every reward level).
$150,000: One Male or Female Multi-Pose Mini (random gender)
$200,000: A Pad of Character Sheets
$250,000: One Special Edition Hanging Tree Mini. This miniature is of the most prominent landmark in all of Malifaux, originally made available at Gen Con 2012.
$250,000: for all pledges $60 and above receive a Digital Version of the books
$300,000: ???
Reminder: backers who pledge $60 or more by 5 p.m. PST today will receive a Miss Terious as our Early Supporter Thank You, and you can always change your pledge at any point without losing your Miss Terious.
Finally, check the FAQ’s on our home page as they have been updated to address some very important questions!
Until Tomorrow!
Jacqulyn
At least they revealed the stretch goals before the Miss Terious went away.
However, there really doesn't seem to be much extra to justify the jump from the $60 edition to the $125 edition.
The Hanging Tree and Male/Female characters seem like they will be paid extras.
Absolutionis wrote: The Hanging Tree and Male/Female characters seem like they will be paid extras.
Doesn't look that way: "The following stretch goals are added automatically to every reward pledged at $125 or more (Living Room, Dining Room, and Gaming Room)."
BrookM wrote: I guess this means that the living room gets two decks and the dining room one, yes?
Also, yay for digital versions being included, that's always good news.
Idk, but the question has been asked on the Kickstarter Comments
My thinking behind not doing that obviously smart move: The inclusion of the word additional, but god I hope not... Which would set the Dining Room Gamer up as the "sweet" spot for this KS.
The stretch goals made a decent difference to me. I see this thing easily topping the 250k they have laid out, so I can only see this getting better. If the fate deck does get added to the Dining Room Gamer level because of the stretcher, I think I'll move my pledge up to that eventually.
recruittons wrote: The stretch goals made a decent difference to me. I see this thing easily topping the 250k they have laid out, so I can only see this getting better. If the fate deck does get added to the Dining Room Gamer level because of the stretcher, I think I'll move my pledge up to that eventually.
Sadly, I would probably move my pledge down to that >_< but they're only losing 100 dollars of an already over 100,000 dollar drive lol.
It's good to know that the early backers can upgrade without losing Miss Terious. I'm currently sitting on the $60 pledge waiting for that Freikorps models to be even more justifiable.
BrookM wrote: I guess this means that the living room gets two decks and the dining room one, yes?
Also, yay for digital versions being included, that's always good news.
Idk, but the question has been asked on the Kickstarter Comments
My thinking behind not doing that obviously smart move: The inclusion of the word additional, but god I hope not... Which would set the Dining Room Gamer up as the "sweet" spot for this KS.
Here's hoping, especially if both pledges get a random mini, why not the other way round as well?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah, from their comments section:
Yes. Dining Room backers get a Special Edition Fate Deck, and Living Room and Gaming Room backers get another (total of 2).
BrookM wrote: I guess this means that the living room gets two decks and the dining room one, yes?
Also, yay for digital versions being included, that's always good news.
Idk, but the question has been asked on the Kickstarter Comments
My thinking behind not doing that obviously smart move: The inclusion of the word additional, but god I hope not... Which would set the Dining Room Gamer up as the "sweet" spot for this KS.
Here's hoping, especially if both pledges get a random mini, why not the other way round as well?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah, from their comments section:
Yes. Dining Room backers get a Special Edition Fate Deck, and Living Room and Gaming Room backers get another (total of 2).
Good point! I'll be switching my pledge level at the end of the weekend lol.
Buzzsaw wrote: Let's be clear, for people that think the value of the pledge levels is inadequate given the nature of the field, the last update has done... well, basically nothing to reassure such people that their concern is being heard. It's rather pointedly expressed that they ought to reconcile themselves to not being satisfied and look towards retail release instead,
Frankly, I don't actually believe that. I seriously doubt that they have the stones to "go Brom", as it were, and say "yup, what you see is what you get". I would be shocked if they don't add stretch goals, in fact, I would presume that tomorrows update will add multiple items to the mid-level pledges. If only because not doing so would be so brazen.
Well, a bit of a mixed bag there. Yup, they didn't stick with what they had and, yup, they added a bunch of things specifically to the mid-level pledges. But dang, these seem like some underwhelming stretch goals. Strange too.
$150,000: One (or one additional) Male or Female Multi-Pose Mini (random gender)
What? Why would this be random, and why one rather then a pair? They are adding a non-limited edition plastic kit piece, the cost to them for producing more of a piece they are already producing is literally measured in cents per unit.
$200,000: A Pad of Character Sheets
Again, a $50,000 stretch to add a value of cents to a $125 pledge.
Now, no doubt someone will interject that the cost of production of plastic bits and pads of paper are much more expensive then I am giving them credit for, so let's assume, arguendo, that they would add a cumulative cost of $5 per applicable pledge. Let's further assume they obtain the astronomical number of 5,000 backers (more then Relic Knights, more then Sedition Wars, just short of Zombicide's total).
So they are taking in $100,000 to add $25,000 value to their pledges. Now they lose some off the top there for fees, so let's be very charitable and say they new $80,000. So $55,000 goes to...?
Of course one might also object, and say that you have to consider that the pledge base contents themselves need to be paid for. Entirely true, but not really important here, since at the pledge price, it's pretty clear these pledges are paying for themselves and then some, they are not loss leaders. As Alf has pointed out several times, the $60 value of the books is a decent deal compared to the retail value of similar books. We can thus fairly safely presume that the production costs are substantially less.
What's so interesting about that calculation is that it shows, Wyrd's pretenses to the contrary, they are using this campaign as a store: at the end of the campaign, they will have made a pretty tidy profit from all this.
Nothing at all wrong with that... just a bit of humor.
Buzzsaw wrote: So they are taking in $100,000 to add $25,000 value to their pledges. Now they lose some off the top there for fees, so let's be very charitable and say they new $80,000. So $55,000 goes to...?
wait do you really not understand this?
that $100,000 isn't people who already pledged saying ooh i like this stretch goal lemmie just pledge extra money so it happens. that $100,000 is 800 more people who they have to produce books and mini's for, thats where the money goes, the extra minis and character sheets comes out of the wyrds profit.
I hadn't thought about it like that, but, yeah, it's not really sitting with me well.
The single(unless it has a vast number of options) random (huh?) seems a bit light. Maybe they'll add another one later or something?
The character sheets are nice, especially if they're a nice weight, but I've never had trouble printing PDFs for these, even if they're not pretty and in color. Having printed stuff, this is probably worth more in cost than it is to the average gamer (that is, the gamer's perceived value of this is less than how much it'll cost wyrd).
Both the fate deck and digital copies are nice, but really feel like they should have been included at the $60 point, especially the digital download.
The hanging tree is a bit mysterious. The kit came with 3 of differing sizes... not sure what this means. I'm also not incredibly happy with Wyrd's policy of reprinting special edition things, as it takes away from the value of them for people who got them initially.
I'm getting this terrible sinking feeling like when PP started sliding in a direction I no longer believed in or trusted. I'm really, really hoping that this isn't happening with Wyrd
I can't help but honk that these stretch goals are ways for wyrd to "address" the criticisms without ever admitting fault in their original pledge levels.
I think it's really lame that the digital copy comes so late. It should have been included or at the very least the first stretch goal. As the stretch goals go, I think it's incredibly disengenuous to include late stretch goals for funding levels that have already been met. In truth, I think all the stretch goals are lame save for the Hanging tree, which for me is interesting. Interesting in that it was like, $80 bucks at GenCon, which appeared to be way too much based on the volume they had left at the end of the convention.
Maybe I'm just cynical, but nothing from this update has swayed me. No info on page count. No sample...well... Anything.
cincydooley wrote: I can't help but honk that these stretch goals are ways for wyrd to "address" the criticisms without ever admitting fault in their original pledge levels.
Which is stupid. As far as Kickstarters go, admitting a mistake and fixing it "thanks to the community feedback" is about the best thing you can do to get those positive viral vibes.
Hell, even a Kickstarter that could've been designed flawless from the start should probably add a few "mistakes" for the community to fix, just so you can get the internet-badge of being someone who is "listening to your base". It's worth hard $$$ on Kickstarter.
cincydooley wrote: I can't help but honk that these stretch goals are ways for wyrd to "address" the criticisms without ever admitting fault in their original pledge levels.
I think it's really lame that the digital copy comes so late. It should have been included or at the very least the first stretch goal. As the stretch goals go, I think it's incredibly disengenuous to include late stretch goals for funding levels that have already been met. In truth, I think all the stretch goals are lame save for the Hanging tree, which for me is interesting. Interesting in that it was like, $80 bucks at GenCon, which appeared to be way too much based on the volume they had left at the end of the convention.
Maybe I'm just cynical, but nothing from this update has swayed me. No info on page count. No sample...well... Anything.
They have sample art, but everyone probably expects that style of art from Wyrd by now. They also do have the sample doll thing.
I was a bit annoyed by the limited edition hanging tree, got mine, but don't think I would have if I had seen it. Feels like maybe 50-60 would have been fine, since it is limited edition, but now it's not even limited :/
It's frustrating. I really want to be excited about this, but it's just not feeling right. Sedition wars was the only other big KS I've invested in, but the other big ones (kingdom death, reaper, the CMoN ones) have all been pretty exciting by comparison...
cincydooley wrote: I can't help but honk that these stretch goals are ways for wyrd to "address" the criticisms without ever admitting fault in their original pledge levels.
Which is stupid. As far as Kickstarters go, admitting a mistake and fixing it "thanks to the community feedback" is about the best thing you can do to get those positive viral vibes.
Hell, even a Kickstarter that could've been designed flawless from the start should probably add a few "mistakes" for the community to fix, just so you can get the internet-badge of being someone who is "listening to your base". It's worth hard $$$ on Kickstarter.
But they didn't admit any fault. At all. Nor did they thank the community. At all. They simple added items as "stretch" goals--can it really be a stretch goal if you've already hit it by the time the goal is published?
In fact, do you know how they addressed the criticism? They said, "Well fine, you can get it through your LGS later on."
It's frustrating. I really want to be excited about this, but it's just not feeling right. Sedition wars was the only other big KS I've invested in, but the other big ones (kingdom death, reaper, the CMoN ones) have all been pretty exciting by comparison...
Right with you. I want to be excited, but I'm having a lot of trouble with that.
Sedition Wars, at $150k, bonuses for their $100 starter set:
29 minis, 3 of which are new sculpts, 1 large
plastic tokens
downloadable campaign
Zombiecide, at $140k, bonuses for their $100 starter set:
-shirt
-26 minis, 3 large, 3 exclusive new sculpts +6 small or 2 large
-6 dice
-downloadable campaign
Reaper at $135k for $100 set
16 extra minis plus some cheap large ones as options
Through the breach at $150k, for $125 starter
-1 deck upgraded to plastic
-1 plastic deck
-1 random small mini
Unless Wyrd comes out with something awesome at some high numbers, I'm going to be pretty disappointed.
Whatever (very legitimate) criticisms are voiced here, Through the Breach is doing stellar on Kickstarter.
Kicktraq is trending them towards just below 2 Million. That will surely fall as the "first day bump" gets a bit smoothed out with more "normal days" of funding, but they are well on their way to beat Numenera (I think?) as the highest-grossing Pen-and-Paper RPG on Kickstarter yet.
I'm glad they're doing well, because they've earned it, but I feel like they've earned it from other products, if that makes sense.
I'm curious to see how it goes once the limited edition mini isn't encouraging supporters (like me) from jumping on earlier than they might otherwise.
I'm very excited about the game (which I fully expect to have a lot of character and creative mechanics, like their other products have had), but not the kickstarter yet.
So looks like you'll still need to fork out a bare minimum of $125 if you want a single KS exclusive. Honestly? I just got into Malifaux and this KS is making me wonder if I shouldn't bother putting in any more effort. It seems like Wyrd wants to be another Games Workshop.
Some complained there was no PDF. They Added the PDF as a stretch goal. People still complain that they can't just get the PDFs and nothing more, when they aren't actually even unlocked yet. Someone even complained that they think the PDFs should come with the 60 pledge....answer: they do.
People complain that it doesn't have the value of Sedition Wars, Zombicide, <insert random miniature game here>. Value is subjective. Its an RPG that happens to offer some miniatures as incentives, but an RPG nontheless. I personally had pledged at 225 before I even realized it came with a second set of books. Then again, I'm a collector of things I happen to enjoy.
I even saw someone complain that they wanted the hardback and the minis but just didn't want to pay the extra for the 225. Welp, sorry, tough break for you. Maybe they will make some items add-ons, but if they don't well...that's how it goes.
I've seen countless complaints compairing the KD kickstarter to this one. For one, they aren;t even close to the same thing. Second, the Kingdom Death KS doesn't even feel like KD at all. There's no creepiness or weirdness to it, and certainly no NSFW themes that are so prevalent in pretty much the rest of the line. It doesn't even seem very violent. Its just some well sculpted miniatures and some add on packs so gamers can play Barbi with their toy men.
At least Through the Breach is pretty relevant to its game universe.
Are the pledge levels versatile? No, I have to admit, they should have a few more options, but sheesh, its what, the close of day 3? Give it a bit more time. Wyrd doesn't have some secret agenda to horde your monies like greedy little misers. They are making a quality game and if we get some neat exclusive extras along the way? Awesome.
But don't think that just because you pledged $20 or something that your entitled to the world. It doesn't work that way. If you like it, back it. If you have constructive criticism, cool, voice it. If you just want to continually complain like Buzzsaw, well...this is dakka and our members are well known for their legendary complaining. Don't forget to repost your irritating rants on Warseer, Bols, and all the other gaming sites too. If say you should rant on the backer comments, but I don't think you can see them. Your complaints are the best. Complaining about free stack of character sheets for an RPG that other companies sell for $10-$14? Really? Priceless.
To all the actual backers, I think its got a long way to go, and I for one can't wait to see how it turns out.
Lansirill wrote: So looks like you'll still need to fork out a bare minimum of $125 if you want a single KS exclusive. Honestly? I just got into Malifaux and this KS is making me wonder if I shouldn't bother putting in any more effort. It seems like Wyrd wants to be another Games Workshop.
If you mean, "they want to sell stuff" then yes they are like Games Workshop. Odd that.
Still, you are not under any obligation to buy any of this stuff. Nothing here affects your Malifaux table top game experience in any way whatsoever. I'd like to point out that while ToB has a higher than normal entry point for the freebies, other kickstarters like Kingdom Death, Sedition Wars, and Kings of War had similar price points to get anything good or worthwhile.
I'd like to take a moment and remind you that kickstarters are not about giving away as much free stuff as possible. They're about funding a project and that includes making a profit off sales generated through said kickstarter. We've been spoiled by McVey and Mark to the point that there is a sense of entitlement welling up from the customer base. The standard for pledging should be, "Am I getting my money's worth for what is being offered in this kickstarter?" not "Are they giving out as much free stuff as the other kickstarter projects did?"
I think the $60 confusion was b/c stretch goals were announded as "$125and above). I stand corrected...
Re: HB rulebooks, at least the complaint I had with it was that you're also charged for the regular one. I don't want 2 copies of one rulebook- the only time I do is with the various condensed ones. I think it's absurd for them to not give that option.
I do agree, though about the KD stuff not really fitting their "setting."
To the general hostility, umm, thanks? Not all complainers don't back. I've already backed it, but have some seriously mixed feelings about the campaign, and I'm not the only one to have stated that.
Whatever (very legitimate) criticisms are voiced here, Through the Breach is doing stellar on Kickstarter.
Kicktraq is trending them towards just below 2 Million. That will surely fall as the "first day bump" gets a bit smoothed out with more "normal days" of funding, but they are well on their way to beat Numenera (I think?) as the highest-grossing Pen-and-Paper RPG on Kickstarter yet.
I'll shave my nuts and use zap a gap to make a mustache from the trimmings if this thing even SNIFFS $2M. That's just a joke.
Whatever (very legitimate) criticisms are voiced here, Through the Breach is doing stellar on Kickstarter.
Kicktraq is trending them towards just below 2 Million. That will surely fall as the "first day bump" gets a bit smoothed out with more "normal days" of funding, but they are well on their way to beat Numenera (I think?) as the highest-grossing Pen-and-Paper RPG on Kickstarter yet.
I'll shave my nuts and use zap a gap to make a mustache from the trimmings if this thing even SNIFFS $2M. That's just a joke.
spiralingcadaver wrote: To the general hostility, umm, thanks? Not all complainers don't back. I've already backed it, but have some seriously mixed feelings about the campaign, and I'm not the only one to have stated that.
It wasn't specific to anyone in general, except maybe Buzzsaw who is hilarious in his ridiculousness. It was more a statement about the people who feel they are entitled to every last thing and if it doesn't meet kickstarter freebies of the past, then the company has some evil agenda or some such nonsense. It's only been a few days, every kickstarter takes some time to ramp up.
Also, I suppose such sentiment from people should be expected on Dakka. Its primarily a miniature site, and not so much about RPGs and other things.
Zweischneid wrote: Hell, even a Kickstarter that could've been designed flawless from the start should probably add a few "mistakes" for the community to fix, just so you can get the internet-badge of being someone who is "listening to your base". It's worth hard $$$ on Kickstarter.
This is pretty darn true . I gotta admit, I swoon for the ones who listen to feedback. $500 to Dreamforge's and another $500 to Trollforged's KS.
Sold some things to do it (and I'm about to sell another army as well) but they got my money alright, and listening to feedback was how they did it.
Malifaux is capitalizing on their existing base, I think, which is great- but not doing much to lure in any new participants who wouldn't have joined in regardless (imo).
spiralingcadaver wrote: To the general hostility, umm, thanks? Not all complainers don't back. I've already backed it, but have some seriously mixed feelings about the campaign, and I'm not the only one to have stated that.
It wasn't specific to anyone in general, except maybe Buzzsaw who is hilarious in his ridiculousness. It was more a statement about the people who feel they are entitled to every last thing and if it doesn't meet kickstarter freebies of the past, then the company has some evil agenda or some such nonsense. It's only been a few days, every kickstarter takes some time to ramp up.
Also, I suppose such sentiment from people should be expected on Dakka. Its primarily a miniature site, and not so much about RPGs and other things.
You realize most of the criticism was not focused on the number of freebies, but rather the lack of transparency In the stretch goals coupled with the incredibly limited number of pledge options. Having more pledge options doesn't adversely affect them at all. The way they've organized it is contrary to almost every other successful Kickstarter. And that would be okay if they even attempted to rationalize or at east pretended to listen to their consumer base that was providing criticism. Instead, they chose to turn up their noses and say, "You don't like OUR pledge levels? Fine, we don't want you to be a part of our Kickstarter."
I hardly think that they've displayed a great attitude towards those folks that have provided well reasoned and valid critical feedback.
The standard for pledging should be, "Am I getting my money's worth for what is being offered in this kickstarter?" not "Are they giving out as much free stuff as the other kickstarter projects did?"
Your so-called "Freebies" are part of money's worth of the equation. I looked hard and long the stretch goals list and decided it wasn't worth my time and money.
I Cancelled my pledge ($82), because that's just too much money for an unknown RPG-system.
Breotan wrote: The standard for pledging should be, "Am I getting my money's worth for what is being offered in this kickstarter?" not "Are they giving out as much free stuff as the other kickstarter projects did?"
The standard "pledge" should be "you get you're money's worth in equity in the company and thus a share of all future revenues". That is the "standard" return for carrying an investor's risk.
Anything less than that (as in.. .something as humble as mere product from a company) better be damn good for anyone to step outside the safety of a regular sales contract (like the one you get ordering from an online store or shopping in your FLGS) to risk your money on a future business venture.
It certainly should be a lot better than the equivalent you'd get for the same money in a store, even discounted for the interest you could earn on that money until the product is released, to compensate you for shouldering the entrepreneurial risk for said company with your cash.
Lansirill wrote: So looks like you'll still need to fork out a bare minimum of $125 if you want a single KS exclusive. Honestly? I just got into Malifaux and this KS is making me wonder if I shouldn't bother putting in any more effort. It seems like Wyrd wants to be another Games Workshop.
If you mean, "they want to sell stuff" then yes they are like Games Workshop. Odd that.
Still, you are not under any obligation to buy any of this stuff. Nothing here affects your Malifaux table top game experience in any way whatsoever. I'd like to point out that while ToB has a higher than normal entry point for the freebies, other kickstarters like Kingdom Death, Sedition Wars, and Kings of War had similar price points to get anything good or worthwhile.
I'd like to take a moment and remind you that kickstarters are not about giving away as much free stuff as possible. They're about funding a project and that includes making a profit off sales generated through said kickstarter. We've been spoiled by McVey and Mark to the point that there is a sense of entitlement welling up from the customer base. The standard for pledging should be, "Am I getting my money's worth for what is being offered in this kickstarter?" not "Are they giving out as much free stuff as the other kickstarter projects did?"
?
There is no "Standard" when it comes to Kickstarter Projects.
They are easily throwing this phrase "KS is not a store" routine when at the same time trying to push for maximum cash flow from joe averages wallet without working for it.
If you want to fund a project, its entirly on YOU to put your money where your mouth is. If a company wants to do better, they can actually put some effort into it, and make it worth the time.
What you don't do is go out and run your mouth- "Hey, if you don't like it, you can get it from your FLGS."
Saying something like that is disengenuous to the point of arrogance. They already have plans to fund it, irregardless of the KS results, if not you wouldn't fly off the cuff when someone throws out some very constructive criticism.
It isn't about being spoiled, either. Your sitting there like people are out here like Olvier, asking for more, when all people are really asking for is a little attention to detail.
Spoiled is Weird, trying to remake KS in how THEY think it is supposed to go, not how real serious projects are being seriously funded.
Well it's the first kickstarter I've pledged for, I've seen a fair few that I regretted not getting on board with like the reaper and bombshell starters and I didn't want to risk doing it again.
I'll agree it doesn't seem like the greatest kickstarter I've seen just yet, but the other half and me are planning on getting into malifaux as soon as she's finished her 40k army and I love having background for my armies.
Worst case scenario, nothing changes, the further stretch goals turn out to be nothing impressive I can just cancel the pledge, but for now I've gone in for the $60 in time for the extra mini.
Lansirill wrote: So looks like you'll still need to fork out a bare minimum of $125 if you want a single KS exclusive. Honestly? I just got into Malifaux and this KS is making me wonder if I shouldn't bother putting in any more effort. It seems like Wyrd wants to be another Games Workshop.
If you mean, "they want to sell stuff" then yes they are like Games Workshop. Odd that.
Still, you are not under any obligation to buy any of this stuff. Nothing here affects your Malifaux table top game experience in any way whatsoever. I'd like to point out that while ToB has a higher than normal entry point for the freebies, other kickstarters like Kingdom Death, Sedition Wars, and Kings of War had similar price points to get anything good or worthwhile.
I'd like to take a moment and remind you that kickstarters are not about giving away as much free stuff as possible. They're about funding a project and that includes making a profit off sales generated through said kickstarter. We've been spoiled by McVey and Mark to the point that there is a sense of entitlement welling up from the customer base. The standard for pledging should be, "Am I getting my money's worth for what is being offered in this kickstarter?" not "Are they giving out as much free stuff as the other kickstarter projects did?"
?
There is no "Standard" when it comes to Kickstarter Projects.
They are easily throwing this phrase "KS is not a store" routine when at the same time trying to push for maximum cash flow from joe averages wallet without working for it.
If you want to fund a project, its entirly on YOU to put your money where your mouth is. If a company wants to do better, they can actually put some effort into it, and make it worth the time.
What you don't do is go out and run your mouth- "Hey, if you don't like it, you can get it from your FLGS."
Saying something like that is disengenuous to the point of arrogance. They already have plans to fund it, irregardless of the KS results, if not you wouldn't fly off the cuff when someone throws out some very constructive criticism.
It isn't about being spoiled, either. Your sitting there like people are out here like Olvier, asking for more, when all people are really asking for is a little attention to detail.
Spoiled is Weird, trying to remake KS in how THEY think it is supposed to go, not how real serious projects are being seriously funded.
Spoiled to the point of arrogance.
Really well said. I'll add that that arrogance shows through a bit more when you consider their "secret" stretch goals at the outset, and the general tone of how their KS is worded. Oh yeah, and the fact that they've supplied little to know solid information about the project.
kaiohx wrote: If you just want to continually complain like Buzzsaw, well...this is dakka and our members are well known for their legendary complaining. Don't forget to repost your irritating rants on Warseer, Bols, and all the other gaming sites too. If say you should rant on the backer comments, but I don't think you can see them. Your complaints are the best.
kaiohx wrote:It wasn't specific to anyone in general, except maybe Buzzsaw who is hilarious in his ridiculousness...
Uh oh, I think I'm about to be asked to the Sadie Hawkins dance!
Breotan wrote: I'd like to take a moment and remind you that kickstarters are not about giving away as much free stuff as possible. They're about funding a project and that includes making a profit off sales generated through said kickstarter. We've been spoiled by McVey and Mark to the point that there is a sense of entitlement welling up from the customer base. The standard for pledging should be, "Am I getting my money's worth for what is being offered in this kickstarter?" not "Are they giving out as much free stuff as the other kickstarter projects did?"
To put aside japery for a moment, this is a good point that I think ought to be addressed, in that it's both sincere and ultimately at the root of what is going amiss here.
Kickstarter is intended to be what Mark did with it, and very much what Reaper did with it: they used it as a substitute for venture capitol. An infusion of cash that allows a new venture to be established, and a product brought to fruition. Stretch goals should contribute to making the ultimate product better, getting something new added to the product line. What a venture capitol model should not be doing is exactly what Wyrd claims not to be doing: conducting a pre-sale or to use their terms, using Kickstarter as a store. When you build substantial profit into the stretches, guess what? It's now a store.
Again, just think back to what Mark or Reaper did: each stretch goal met meant another model sculpted, another mold tooled. That is, another product financed that would be added to their business that would eventually be sold in the stream of commerce.
It's the stretch goals that open another product to purchase that are actually the most clearly in the spirit of kickstarter and venture funding. Those are products that have had their development costs paid by the stretch, but only just that.
By contrast, look at the stretch goals here: other then transitioning the cards to plastic, none of the others (with the possibility of a very tendentious argument regarding a pad of papers) represents a newly funded product. They are all just stuff they happen to have lying around. Seriously now, at $250,000 (or 800%+ their original funding goal) they add a model they had left over from Gencon, and a digital copy... possibly the item with the least possible development costs and the only type of item with an actual cost as close as physically possible to zero for manufacture and distribution.
At the end of the day, there are going to be people fine with that. Fans, not kool-aid drinkers, not toadies, just fans. The fact is, it's quite clear that Wyrd is correct in thinking that they have no small number of fans that aren't going to look at this kickstarter and compare it to others. Because, to them, there is no comparison. They are fans, not consumers and certainly not investors.
Yes, Buzzsaw, their stretch goals are not the most inspiring in the world. In fact, I am rather underwhelmed at this effort they've engaged in. Then again, they're kickstarting a RPG. Not exactly a lot of product in those aside from a few large books.
Still, I look at the price asked and what I'll be getting and decide if it is worth the money. In my case, I said okay and dropped some money on it. I'll revisit my pledge as the kickstarter winds down to see if this is still the case.
Well, the most important accessory for an RPG (for me) is a starter campaign (if not a full one). I like running campaigns, but don't have the time/energy to make a story completely from scratch.
Either one included in the books or as downloadable would get me excited, and could also easily be an upgrade (if Wyrd were to do such a thing, though it seems they don't plan to).
Breotan wrote: Then again, they're kickstarting a RPG. Not exactly a lot of product in those aside from a few large books.
That seems disingenuous as 98% of the criticisms (which you like to dismiss as whining) so far have been suggestions for what can (and perhaps should) be added.
Just of the top of my hat (from other RPG-Kickstarter)
- Character Creation/Management Apps
- Adventures.. usually PDF by default with small (limited pledge) print-runs
- Retailer bundles
- Custom Cards (Fate Deck? Dice for most other RPGs) as a seperate add-on/pledge
- Separate (Digital) Art books
- Separate World-Guide/Cartography/Setting-Guide books without rules
- Novels and other fiction set in the RPG-setting
- Game Master Accessories (GM-screen, cheat-sheets, etc..).
- etc..
If anything, the pen-and-paper RPG industry has taken to Kickstarter with even more enthusiasm than the Miniature-side of the hobby. There're plenty of precedents to look at.
As someone who has played D&D for years all the things Zweischneid suggests as stretch goals seem brilliant to me. My group has never used miniatures for RPGs, we have never seen the need, but things like cheat sheets for skills, character creators and DM screens have always come in very handy. I feel a starter campaign is a must, maybe it is already included, but they should let us know what we are getting for our money.
If things continue as they are I will certainly be dropping my pledge to $60 if not dropping out completely.
Breotan wrote: Then again, they're kickstarting a RPG. Not exactly a lot of product in those aside from a few large books.
That seems disingenuous as 98% of the criticisms (which you like to dismiss as whining) so far have been suggestions for what can (and perhaps should) be added.
Disingenuous? Exactly what is in insincere about my comments? Whiners? I dismiss complaints about not having enough freebees, especially the general vibe that seems to be, "I gave $100 and I want $300 worth of stuff or else". Whatever.
Zweischneid wrote: - Character Creation/Management Apps
- Adventures.. usually PDF by default with small (limited pledge) print-runs
- Retailer bundles
- Custom Cards (Fate Deck? Dice for most other RPGs) as a seperate add-on/pledge
- Separate (Digital) Art books
- Separate World-Guide/Cartography/Setting-Guide books without rules
- Novels and other fiction set in the RPG-setting
- Game Master Accessories (GM-screen, cheat-sheets, etc..).
- etc..
If anything, the pen-and-paper RPG industry has taken to Kickstarter with even more enthusiasm than the Miniature-side of the hobby. There're plenty of precedents to look at.
I'll take your examples one at a time...
- Adventures.. usually PDF by default with small (limited pledge) print-runs
You may have noticed but other than a general outline of what the rules will be about, Wyrd hasn't put a whole lot of development into this yet. I also don't know what kind of staffing, budget (outside kickstarter), or resources are available to create this RPG. I would be very suprised if there's even a full team devoted to this yet. More people will be brought on as the game develops but I doubt this project will see more than a handfull of people until summer 2013 at the earliest.
- Retailer bundles
I've no idea what Wyrd does with retailers on their existing line. I assume the RPG will follow a similar distribution scheme.
- Custom Cards (Fate Deck? Dice for most other RPGs) as a seperate add-on/pledge
I thought they said they were doing this as part of the pledge? I also thought I read some less than enthusiastic posts about it.
- Separate (Digital) Art books
Have they done this for their miniatures line? Unless you want your digital art book to be a .pdf file, you're going to have to hire someone who knows code. Even at entry level, that person will likely cost more than the full time writer on the project. Wyrd may be unwilling to do this. Consider for a moment what their web sites look like and compare that to a company like GW or Wizards or even some of the apps on iTunes and you'll see that an electronic footprint is not high on their agenda.
- Separate World-Guide/Cartography/Setting-Guide books without rules
Outside of Malifaux, exactly how much of the world has been detailed? I suppose a "cloth map" like GW put into Dreadfleet might make a couple of people go "wow" but I don't think many people would change their pledge level for it. And how do you know setting guidebooks aren't coming? The kickstarter is for the core rulebooks. Once those begin generating revenue, Wyrd will likely begin developing and releasing support material.
- Novels and other fiction set in the RPG-setting
Let's go back to the digital art book suggestion and ask the question again, have they done this for the miniatures line? A novel for one is essentially a novel for the other in this case. The only difference would be characters only appearing in the RPG or in the miniature game being in a given book. Who would write the novel? What happens if it turns out to be complete garbage? That's happened for other game properties. Perhaps Wyrd has something planned already that is separate from the kickstarter and the RPG guys haven't been given the goahead to say anything. Perhaps Wyrd just isn't looking at novels or other forms of licensing right now.
- Game Master Accessories (GM-screen, cheat-sheets, etc..).
Also, a GM screen? A deck of cards? Are you serious? How is any of that going to bump people from $60 to $125? They've promised some sort of pad of sheets and I think I remember a snide comment a few posts back. Also, how do you know a GM screen isn't going to be part of the process? Once again, I'll reiterate that I've got a gut feeling this project is little more than brainstorming at this point. I don't even think they know what they'll be offering down the line. Which brings me back to my point. This project is what it is. You need to look at it and decide if it has value for your money or if it doesn't.
As to the whining comment... It is true that I've replied negatively to people complaining that there isn't enough stuff being offered. I stand by those comments. As for other (non-freebee) criticisms that people have, I don't remember getting on people who have had actual criticism about the project (RPG game) itself, how it is being developed, or the reasons why Wyrd is doing the kickstarter in the first place. Wyrd seems to have okayed the kickstarter because the company wants to devote company revenue into the miniatures line and not RPG development. Who knows? I hope this is just me being overly cynical and it may be. Except for the pad of character sheets or whatever it is, the stuff being added so far is coming from the existing miniatures line and that is why I see this as being too early to expect a lot of add-ons. Other than the "cheat fate" gimmic, I don't know if they even know what's going to be in this game. Still, Wyrd has a reputation for delivering quality product and that helps significantly.
Breotan wrote: I dismiss complaints about not having enough freebees, especially the general vibe that seems to be, "I gave $100 and I want $300 worth of stuff or else".
Again. Like all Kickstarter's, they are asking people for money up front, to take an investor's risk, yet they don't offer equity into the company in return as you would get for upfront investments everywhere else. It's not about "freebies". It's about getting adequately compensated by shouldering Wyrd's entrepreneurial risk through with your own private bank account. That risk on Kickstarter is significantly higher than "shopping" through an online store or a brick-and-mortar-store, where you're protected by a sales contract. Higher risks need to be compensated with better rewards, hence why Kickstarters should offer significantly better value than "shops"... always.
Given the clear disdain they show for people on Kickstarter looking to get adequately compensated for providing start-up funds, they probably should've just asked their local Bank or a Californian Venture Capitalist for the money instead.
They must have an idea of what they could produce for the 'minimum funding' level they asked for
that would have been enough to keep me in, minis are fun and all (and I've backed KS for just the minis) but here I was interested in the game
I agree with you on this. I decided not to worry about it because of what Wyrd has already done with the Malifaux books. Still, it isn't like Wyrd is going to revolutionize the RPG industry here. I just hope it turns out better than some of the other recent "indy" RPG stuff I've seen.
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As a note to those that aren't watching the kickstarter comments, or Wyrd's forums.
One of the more "famous" Malifaux podcasts, the Gamer's Lounge, has put out a new episode with an interview with Mack Martin about the RPG. Lots of questions are apparently answered, though I haven't given it a listen and probably won't until tomorrow.
Hey Everyone, apparently sometime after posting yesterday afternoon, we broke 150,000 So that means everyone is getting one randomzied male or female mini.
Not a big update, since we all know the stretch goals at the moment.
I wish they'd show us some 3d renders of the minis at least, that might be a nice way to get people to jump into the dining room gamer or higher.
Alfndrate wrote: Hey Everyone, apparently sometime after posting yesterday afternoon, we broke 150,000 So that means everyone is getting one randomzied male or female mini.
Not a big update, since we all know the stretch goals at the moment.
I wish they'd show us some 3d renders of the minis at least, that might be a nice way to get people to jump into the dining room gamer or higher.
I have a lot of trouble seeing this one getting a lot more momentum unless Wyrd gives it s a serious injection of interesting stretch goals.
Alfndrate wrote: Hey Everyone, apparently sometime after posting yesterday afternoon, we broke 150,000 So that means everyone is getting one randomzied male or female mini.
Not a big update, since we all know the stretch goals at the moment.
I wish they'd show us some 3d renders of the minis at least, that might be a nice way to get people to jump into the dining room gamer or higher.
I have a lot of trouble seeing this one getting a lot more momentum unless Wyrd gives it s a serious injection of interesting stretch goals.
I agree, just trying to keep as updated as I can on this Kickstarter. I think 150,000 should have been PDF and a mini... I don't see it hitting 250k until darn near the end of the drive when people kinda jump in to a drive at the very end.
Sorta' sad to see this happening, as Wyrd makes such nice stuff (and they seem like good people), but I can't help but feel that they need to actively re-think their campaign...
I don't know about anyone else, but if they said "Sorry, Guys, that didn't work the way we were expecting, here's something better" and it was, I'd happily add more to my pledge without a second thought.
I'm currently sitting at the highest available pledge (not the 500 dollar+ one), and while the Dining Room Gamer is the sweet spot I want I just haven't changed it due to laziness...
Maybe all the hardcore Wyrd fans have already jumped on board, and now it is going to take some work/something special to get this thing kickstarted again...
They already met their goal. What more is needed?
Why go for excellence when mediocrity is just good enough?
The next stretch goal is an additional 25% more pledges that exist for something exceptionally underwhelming.
The stretch goal after that is in-demand, but something of negligible cost to Wyrd and somewhat disappoitning that it wasn't originally included.
The only thing they need to avoid now is dissatisfied people lowering/dropping their pledges as we near the end (similar to the BTP abortion). Considering the steady climb and the promise of a quality product at a reasonable (yet uncompetitive) price, it will just be a slow climb.
Absolutionis wrote: They already met their goal. What more is needed?
Why go for excellence when mediocrity is just good enough?
As much as it pains me to say it, it almost seems like that is their goal. I mean, I think this Kickstarter could be a HUGE hit, but they just don't seem to want to make it "great."
Now that I've been thinking about "all of this" for awhile I'm a bit suprised that they chose in house developement for this. I guess they didn't learn anything from PP about in house board/rpg development. If it was my company and IP I'd be liscencing it out to FF faster then you could blink.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've started listenting to the podcast and a few things jumped out at me pretty quickly.
The first is that I've become spoiled by the Dice Tower Podcasts....
The second is their reason's for going to kickstarter. So the gist of it.... Mack says that they probably could have made the RPG using their own resources, but it wouldn't have been as nice as they would have liked it. Kickstarter is letting them get what they really want out of the game.....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Next they go on to talk about all of the "great writers" they have on the team..... I had to google alot of them, and very few of them have had any experiance with an RPG. It would seem that creating an RPG is alot like playing baseball. Anyone that's truely good at it does it professionally for one of the big names.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "There the best writers I think we can get" One of my new favorite quotes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wyrd isn't happy that Kickstarter is influencing game stores.... Thats why their kickstarter is setup the way it is
PP has gotten pretty burned by every boardgame they've put out so far. In the RPG world IK has been a solid Meh. meening its not bad but at the same point its not game changing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Finished up the episode, and i'll say this it could be neat.
What I got out of the podcast as a whole was a sense that Wyrd might not have as firm a finacial footing as everyone thinks.
Day Six is coming to a close, so it’s time for the Daily Update! We’re rocketing into our first full Kickstarter week with a brand-new kind of update. Read on to discover the “Breach Side Chat”!
First though– catching up from the weekend! Thanks to your support, we blasted past ANOTHER Stretch Goal!
$150,000 – ACHIEVED receive an additional Male or Female Multi-Pose Mini (gender determined randomly)
We’re working hard to process your questions and suggestions. For some tasty morsels of information on Through the Breach, head to the Gamer’s Lounge and catch their special with Mack Martin! Bill (author of the special) says it’s “a full hour of Mack Martin answering as many questions as I could drag out of him. Kickstarter, Fluff, Character Creation, Fate Deck, and anything else he would tell us.” http://gamerslounge.coda.net/2012/11/30/gamers-lounge-special-through-the-breach/
Finally, get your texting, emailing, chatting units ready for the chance pick Mack’s Malifaux brain! Tomorrow from 5 p.m. ‘til 6 p.m. PST (12/4), our very own Mack Martin will be answering YOUR QUESTIONS live on UStream TV for our first Breach Side Chat! http://www.ustream.tv/channel/through-the-breach
Won’t be at a computer during that hour tomorrow? We gotcha covered. You can ask Mack questions any time in our Kickstarter Comments section (just address them “@BreachSideChat”) and he’ll see your question for the next Breach Side Chat. Plus, we’ll record every session and post it on the UStream Channel, so you can replay any Breach Side Chat you missed.
Every week, we’ll host a Breach Side Chat at a different time to try to accommodate a breadth of schedules and time zones. Keep an eye on the Updates for info on upcoming Chats!
This could have been huge if they had of put some effort into it, but instead it seems half-arsed. I am holding onto a pledge just in case it becomes huge, but I am not seeing it.
The pledging has slowed down when it should be burning along. If they aren't going to make the deal better than it is, I am going to drop out.
A $50k stretch goal gets you a pad of character sheets? Are you kidding me?
Next they go on to talk about all of the "great writers" they have on the team..... I had to google alot of them, and very few of them have had any experiance with an RPG.
I guess since Mack mentioned my name in the list, I can pop up and admit my involvement on the project. I'm kind of curious, though, whom you think didn't have any experience with an RPG?
I don't think any of the authors were first time RPG writers, though I could have missed one. I admit that I've got a ridiculously common name, so googling it isn't going to pull up my RPG work right away. Feel free to hit the link in my sig (check "About Us") for a list of recent publications.
Hmmmm, your name didn't pop up, or I might have missed it in the list. Mostly I was looking for the more well known among the crowd and my list might not be as complete as I thought. I should probably change my earlier statement given my lack of a deep insight on the RPG world, to be more about the way he said it. To me, and admitidly I might be reading to much into this, but he didn't sound perticularly happy with his team. It sounded like he was being forced to make an RPG on a shoe-string budget and the only way for this RPG to turn out the way he wanted it is for the Kickstarter to be hugely successful. By hugely sucessful I'm talking about the actual money the project brings in after paying for all of the backer rewards. The way it sounds to me, Wyrd is actually running this campaign to maximize the amount of profit they make off of this Kickstarter even though they intend to put all of that profit back into the game. If you think about it, it actually explains alot, especially their stretch goals and backing levels.
Speaking of their stretch goals... Even though their not nessacarily what you might want their not actually that bad. It might have been better to release them in a different order but its a bit late for that now. Looking at the actual goals your getting a pretty good deal retail.
- "$50,000: Special Edition Fate Deck Cards will be Plastic - ACHIEVED" There is currently a plastic fate deck on the market, it's called the Puppet Deck and it retails at my FLGS for $9.99.
- "$100,000: One (or one additional) Special Edition Fate Deck - ACHIEVED" Again the current version of this retails for $9.99.
- "$150,000: One (or one additional) Male or Female Multi-Pose Mini (random gender) - ACHIEVED" The new Wyrd plastic kits retail between $11.00 and $18.00 per kit.
- "$200,000: A Pad of Character Sheets" This one is pretty hard to stick a price to. It's actually one of the stretch goals I'm most interested in. Call me old school but I still prefer to write my character out by hand.
- "$250,000: A Digital Version of the Books (at $60 pledged or more)" Most RPG's on Kickstarter make you pledge $10 for their PDF rulebook.
- "$250,000: One Special Edition Hanging Tree Mini. This miniature is of the most prominent landmark in all of Malifaux, originally made available at Gen Con 2012." From what I've read this is the actual hanging Tree Box Set.... I paid $80 for the one sitting in my closet, thats what Wyrd charged for them during Gencon.
Assuming this Kickstarter reaches $250,000 the backers at the $60 level will get roughly $110 worth of stretch rewards and at the higher levels will get roughly $120 worth of stretch rewards plus whatever the character sheets are worth to you.
From what I've seen heard of the actual game play. This could be a fun system, it sounds like it plays very close to the mini's game. Another plus for it is that it sounds like its going to be alot of fun to run.
While I'm still fairly critical of the project and I belive there are alot of things they could do better... I think I see some of their reasoning behind things and given their past proformance with Kickstarter projects I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and go along for the ride with them.
The Puppet Deck and the Retro Fate Deck are 11.50 now , and yes I'm a sucker for a fate deck, and honestly would have preferred to have cards rather than plastic cards. They don't shuffle as well and they slide everywhere.
I'm going to gloss over the minis, cause I already covered it like 5 pages ago when people were bitching about the 65 dollar jump from the core set to the dining room gamer, but I agree with you.
I'm excited for the character sheets, I understand that I could just print one out, but if they put them on their website like they did their errata, count me out on that, I'd rather have a pad. I love writing out a character on a sheet by hand...
Agreed on the PDF, it should have been a 10 dollar pledge.
I didn't buy the trees at GenCon, because I thought the idea was ridiculous and I'm kinda glad I saved my money, since I'll be getting one now anyways, but don't have much incentive to build it since I don't play ressers.
I'm with you Caty, I like what the game seems to be promising, Wyrd has a history of getting their kickstarter stuff out, and I'm curious to see how this all pans out.
I don't own the Retro Fate deck, I've never actually been anywhere thats had one for sale, so I can't comment on it. I do have the Puppet Deck though and I actually like the plastic cards, when I was activly running Malifaux leagues in my area I ran into some problems where players where wearing their decks to the point they could effectivly know what was coming. The plastics cards wear less although it does take some time to break them into the point where they shuffle nicely.
The $65 jump from the core set to the dining room gamer does get you three more models. It's largely going to depend on exactly what those models are that determines whether or not that level is worth it. There are two things that are fairly improtant to keep in mind though. One, generally with Wyrd the physical size and weight of a model determine how much they sell it for. Two, Wyrd is pretty good with making it hard to get limited edition models because of this Wyrd limited edition models tend to be quite valuable in the aftermarket.
I completly agree with you on the character sheets. Based upon my RPG group I had thought I was the only person in the world that prefered an actual physical character sheet.
The trees are actually pretty neat, I bought them and the new rulebook online from Wyrd during Gencon. Mostly I did it to hit the $100 level to get the free Miss Terious model. If I can get my hands on a Miss Pack and the Henchman only model I will have all of the Limited Edition stuff Wyrd has released. If anyone in interested I can take some pictures of the Hanging Trees so you can get an idea of what you'd get with that stretch goal.
I was reading through some of my past posts in this thread... I realized just how negative and critical I sounded, especially when I only ment to be critical! Wyrd posting their stretch goals and the interview podcast have gone a ways to reduce my negativity and ctriticalness towards this project. The ball is now firmly in Wyrd's court and only time and future communication, including their Live Stream tonight will determine if I stay a backer.
The Retro Fate Deck is made exactly like the puppet deck (I have both, after some guy in the Masters Tournament at GenCon was flipping terribly and handed it off and said, I don't ever want to see this again. The henchman he gave it to, walked up to me and asked if I wanted it, I said sure lol).
Yeah, I've been watching the Santana Ortega models go for 150 bucks, and those I would say are the rarest simply because it was only open to henchman for a while, and yet NE LCB goes for a lot more. I wouldn't mind a Miss Pack or a Dead Justice box.
There is a Henchman Only model up for grabs in the Dakka Painting Challenge
Or you could mug me for it... I still so want a NE Teddy and LCB
NE LCB is an amazing model, probably one of my favorites that Wyrd has done. Wyrd gave me on to give out as prize support for a Malifaux tournement at Templecon a few years ago, the first place winner traded it to another player for a dead rider box....
Unfortunatly I have no hope of winning a painting contest.
Catyrpelius wrote: NE LCB is an amazing model, probably one of my favorites that Wyrd has done. Wyrd gave me on to give out as prize support for a Malifaux tournement at Templecon a few years ago, the first place winner traded it to another player for a dead rider box....
Unfortunatly I have no hope of winning a painting contest.
I was a big fan of the Warchicken from this past Easter, and the slop hauler in a bunny costume was pretty cute, but alas I don't play gremlins anymore.
Edit: As an on topic update: The KS gained 10 people and about 2k last night from when I went to bed and now. So it's averaging 5k a day since it slowed down over the weekend?
Assuming this Kickstarter reaches $250,000 the backers at the $60 level will get roughly $110 worth of stretch rewards and at the higher levels will get roughly $120 worth of stretch rewards plus whatever the character sheets are worth to you.
Just to clarify, the $60 pledges get $10 of stretch goal bonuses (assuming you value the PDF at $10. Frankly I value it at roughly $0 after paying for hard copies of the rulebooks.) You don't get any KS specials unless you fork out $125.
Day Seven is coming to a close, so it’s time for the Daily Update!
Tonight, we announce our Week 2 Thank You! To all our backers who pledge before the end of Week 2 at Friday 5 p.m. PST (12/7) we have a thank you bonus in store for you! (and if you've already pledged, that means you!)
Keep your eye on the campaign for when we reveal the Week 2 Thank You reward; that’s all we’ll tell you tonight!
Don’t forget to tune in now! 5 p.m. ‘til 6 p.m. PST (12/4), to chat and listen as our very own Mack Martin answers YOUR QUESTIONS live on UStream TV for our first Breach Side Chat! http://www.ustream.tv/channel/through-the-breach
Until Tomorrow!
Jacqulyn
It seems that there will be a weekly 'thank you' reward revealed sometime this week.
Perhaps this is a way to sweeten the deal for pledging. I kinda like this. It rewards you for pledging early and taking the risk. Though it does suck for the late adopters, but hopefully by the time the late comers get into the kickstarter, there are enough stretch goals reach that it won't matter.
I have all the LE models and quite frankly, I think wyrd is missing the boat in not doing a new one for this KS.
NE LCB is a nice looking model, but is quite possibly the worst model I've ever had the misfortune of assembling. Tons of gaps. Didn't fit together terribly well. May be worse than the metal thunderfire cannon.
I am a pretty big fan of my Santana Ortega though. She's quite nice.
That's good to hear. Like a lot of this campaign, I wish they'd been more transparent about this (unless it was a change in plans), but I think it's a nice (or at least interesting) alternative to more stretch goals etc. I wonder if it'll catch on?
Perhaps a constant weekly reward will convince people to hop on now rather than wait for the underwhelming stretch goals (character sheets and a .pdf) to yield way to the more interesting rewards.
Perhaps a constant weekly reward will convince people to hop on now rather than wait for the underwhelming stretch goals (character sheets and a .pdf) to yield way to the more interesting rewards.
This may be part of it. I'm curious, though, how much of an incentive this will be, past the initial grab from fans who jumped on the first round.
I'm really hoping for the best for them, but still confused by their kickstarter. Less annoyed and no longer ambivalent, but... still confused.
Souleater wrote: An update to tell us there is going to be an update? Did GW make a hostile take over at the weekend?
While I am interested in the RPG I find this KS somewhat tiresome.
No, an update to link the Q&A Mack Martin did earlier this evening. They also announced there would be a Week 2 pledge bonus. That was the backer update, if you had read it.
Day Seven is coming to a close, so it’s time for the Daily Update!
Tonight, we announce our Week 2 Thank You! To all our backers who pledge before the end of Week 2 at Friday 5 p.m. PST (12/7) we have a thank you bonus in store for you! (and if you've already pledged, that means you!)
Keep your eye on the campaign for when we reveal the Week 2 Thank You reward; that’s all we’ll tell you tonight!
Don’t forget to tune in now! 5 p.m. ‘til 6 p.m. PST (12/4), to chat and listen as our very own Mack Martin answers YOUR QUESTIONS live on UStream TV for our first Breach Side Chat! http://www.ustream.tv/channel/through-the-breach
Until Tomorrow!
Jacqulyn
It seems that there will be a weekly 'thank you' reward revealed sometime this week.
It will be interesting to see if this makes people back earlier than usual on a project. This is actually one of the smarter things that I think they've done with this kickstarter. Although, if your trying to make people get off the fence and back earlier why keep it a secret?
Souleater wrote: An update to tell us there is going to be an update? Did GW make a hostile take over at the weekend?
While I am interested in the RPG I find this KS somewhat tiresome.
No, an update to link the Q&A Mack Martin did earlier this evening. They also announced there would be a Week 2 pledge bonus. That was the backer update, if you had read it.
I did read it. We got two paragraphs telling us about the next update and then a single paragraph about the Q&A.
Souleater wrote: An update to tell us there is going to be an update? Did GW make a hostile take over at the weekend?
While I am interested in the RPG I find this KS somewhat tiresome.
No, an update to link the Q&A Mack Martin did earlier this evening. They also announced there would be a Week 2 pledge bonus. That was the backer update, if you had read it.
I did read it. We got two paragraphs telling us about the next update and then a single paragraph about the Q&A.
The details in the update were alittle bare, I would have really liked to know what the week 2 bonus is and some more info on the Q&A would have been nice. However with all the negative stuff I could say about this Kickstarter, their updates aren't the worst I've seen... For me Kittens in a Blender takes that distinction.
Update today guys, Fatemasters hold on to your Soulstones! We've got an adventure for anyone that pledges 60 bucks or more. Probably another book, most likely not a pdf who knows
Wyrd wrote:December 5th - over 541% of funding goal
Hi everyone!
Day Eight is coming to a close, so it’s time for the Daily Update!
We teased you yesterday with talk of a Week 2 Thank You. Everyone who has already pledged and everyone else who makes a pledge ($60 and up) by Friday 5 p.m. PST (12/7) will automatically earn a bonus reward. Plus, if you pledge now (or have already pledged) you’ll already be eligible for our next Thank You bonus! It’s the season of sharing, so share the news with your friends!
The bonus this week will help you give your campaigns spice and excitement right out of the gate! Thank you for your early support and please enjoy: a digital copy of the first official Through the Breach adventure! Titled “In Defense of Innocence” this episode will be the first in our line of stories for the Malifaux RPG, known as the Penny Dreadfuls.
And if you’re wondering “What is this ‘Disposition’ thing everyone is talking about?” give Mack your ear for a while and listen to last night’s Breach Side Chat (don’t worry, you can have your ear back anytime) http://www.ustream.tv/channel/through-the-breach
If they're going to give away PDFs, I have no idea why they don't just make it a stretch goal that's been met and give it to everyone. It's just going to annoy some people who didn't get on the bandwagon in time
They are apparently trying to drive pledges with the fear of missing out on "thank you" bonuses rather than with stretch goals.
Seems that would kill a lot of the interest generated by backers discussing upcoming stretches. This is such a weirdly icky kickstarter.
Sining wrote: If they're going to give away PDFs, I have no idea why they don't just make it a stretch goal that's been met and give it to everyone. It's just going to annoy some people who didn't get on the bandwagon in time
I did say, most likely NOT a pdf.... Mack also hinted that anything he puts out will be bound in a book.
Edit: Looks like I'm a horse's ass...
Wyrd said it would be digital via twitter, they also said it would be a mini adventure...
This bonus was absurdly underwhelming. This whole thing has been tremendously underwhelming. As a miniatures gamer, I'm having difficulty not dropping my $125 pledge down to the basic book and dumping the difference on KD extras.
cincydooley wrote: I just don't get this Kickstarter. Just don't get it.
They saw the success people have been having with Kickstarted products and decided to use it as a preorder system for something that would already get made to the same level of quality anyways.
plastictrees wrote: They are apparently trying to drive pledges with the fear of missing out on "thank you" bonuses rather than with stretch goals.
Seems that would kill a lot of the interest generated by backers discussing upcoming stretches. This is such a weirdly icky kickstarter.
It seems petty if you ask me. There can't be any real increase in cost from giving the early backers a PDF and just giving everyone a PDF. I'm guessing this KS won't see a last day surge if they're going to be doing this
cincydooley wrote: I just don't get this Kickstarter. Just don't get it.
They saw the success people have been having with Kickstarted products and decided to use it as a preorder system for something that would already get made to the same level of quality anyways.
I meant I don't understand their attitude towards it and the peculiar way in which theyre conducting it. It's just....off.
cincydooley wrote: I just don't get this Kickstarter. Just don't get it.
They saw the success people have been having with Kickstarted products and decided to use it as a preorder system for something that would already get made to the same level of quality anyways.
I meant I don't understand their attitude towards it and the peculiar way in which theyre conducting it. It's just....off.
Yeah, it still feels really strange to me (both how they're conducting it and how it's being received).
However, I'm quite happy with an adventure-- I never have the energy to come up with completely original material when GMing, so any assistance in a loose narrative is great.
I agree that it's off, but maybe this is that whole, "We don't want to treat it like a store." thing they were talking about. I'm all for adventures, pdf or otherwise, and I can see how it might "drive" up pledges, but at the same time, waiting till the middle of the week to announce it seemed kind of dumb. Announce the early thank yous on Monday, give a few days for people to let it sink in, and decide if they want to pledge. I mean that Dining Room is looking better and better with each week. I get the books I need to run the game, 3 minis (either 2 male 1 female or vice versa), a fate deck, and special edition mini that could be used for a villain (if you don't play Malifaux), and a mini adventure. Take a pack of terraclips you might already have, and you're ready to run some Through the Breach.
Also did anyone else enjoy the mini adventures being called Penny Dreadfuls?
Edit: They're still averaging 4k a day since the initial drop off of Miss Terious, but that number went down on Tuesday, but up again yesterday. It'll be interesting to see how this turns out. I would love to see us hit 250k, so many of the fencesitters can jump in (probably waiting for a pdf), and we can surge a few more 10s of thousands of dollars lol.
Alfndrate wrote: I agree that it's off, but maybe this is that whole, "We don't want to treat it like a store." thing they were talking about. I'm all for adventures, pdf or otherwise, and I can see how it might "drive" up pledges, but at the same time, waiting till the middle of the week to announce it seemed kind of dumb.
Well. It feels a lot like they think Kickstarter is a bit "icky". They wanna be there for the seen, but at the same time that don't really wanna do a "Kickstarter" in a classic sense.
But yeah, the logic is kinda odd. While some "pledge early" specials are the norm these days, I think it is still Stretch Goals that are the main work horse that drives Kickstarter dynamics.
Stretch Goals essentially mean: The more people get in, the better it will be for everyone. And the better a given Kickstarter gets, the more people will jump in who didn't though it "good enough" before Stretch Goal X was achieved.
This one has pretty much an inverse "incentive logic". It's almost entirely build in a way to give the best deal to the first pledges, and the longer you wait, the less you'll get from it, it seems. With the added complication that you "don't know" what exactly your "early pledge special" fully contains until they are all revealed.
Ironically, I think that could crowd-out precisely the people you'd want to reach through the KS above all.. those not well familiar with Malifaux, etc.. .
The hard-core Wyrd-fans are in on the KS, and would likely be (almost) no matter what. And there's obviously enough of them to make it a runaway-success.
But the effect of "expanding the base" is probably lost to a large degree as the KS doesn't have that escalating "it getting better every day" logic that would draw in precisely the kind of people not yet interested in/familiar with Malifaux, who would've maybe given it "a try" simply for being an enticing deal.
That is - at least in my experience - how Bones got me. I don't think I would've ever bought a Bones miniature in my live, or at least not in the next 20 years or so, without the KS. But now I am looking forward to having a truck-load of them. New customer (and possibly a new fan if the stuff is good).
The bones stuff is pretty good, got to play with them at GenCon...
As to the KS stuff, the only thing that's really frustrating me at the moment is the BreachSideChats. I haven't been able to catch either of them, so I'm left here with half information. They apparently have talked about "Pursuits" and "Dispositions" but idk what they are because they don't record the UStreams so I'm left feeling like I'm missing major chunks of the information, and it's making my job here hard because I can't provide updates about what we know...
I think Zweischneid perfectly described my thoughts. I'm not unfamliar with Malifaux: I've played a game with my Guild, and I own three of the books. I'm not even an active player, let alone a fanatic.
I'm also not an RPG gamer, but I do like source books for reading material.
I don't feel like I'm really the target for this KS, and so I won't tell Wyrd how to run it. Just from my view, I'm getting used to getting an amazing return on my investment with kickstarter, especially when deliverty is so distant. I know they say to just wait to buy retail if I don't like the KS, but that misses the point of using a KS to drum up interest: I'm not gonna buy it retail! If anything, I'll grab a used copy a few years after the game implodes for pennies on the dollar, or trade for a copy on the Swap Shop.
I'm not excited by a free extra pdf for backing earlier. I would have rather seen them commit to putting out the Penny Dreadfuls as a softcover booklet much like Pathfinder does.
I don't see their weekly rewards being a game changer unless they offer up more rewards like the model from the first week.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Polonius wrote: I think Zweischneid perfectly described my thoughts. I'm not unfamliar with Malifaux: I've played a game with my Guild, and I own three of the books. I'm not even an active player, let alone a fanatic.
I'm also not an RPG gamer, but I do like source books for reading material.
I don't feel like I'm really the target for this KS, and so I won't tell Wyrd how to run it. Just from my view, I'm getting used to getting an amazing return on my investment with kickstarter, especially when deliverty is so distant. I know they say to just wait to buy retail if I don't like the KS, but that misses the point of using a KS to drum up interest: I'm not gonna buy it retail! If anything, I'll grab a used copy a few years after the game implodes for pennies on the dollar, or trade for a copy on the Swap Shop.
I agree with you on this, I've backed alot of things on Kickstarter that I probably wouldn't buy from a store, partly because I have a hard time passing up a great deal but also partly because I kinda like being the buy that has all the cool swag that others don't.
MagickalMemories wrote: Hopefully, they do... and the doll will be one of the tunes... and it won't be exorbitant. LOL
Thanks for the info.
Eric
You might be able to talk someone at a lower level into uping their pledge for you if your willing to pay the difference. I'd offer to do it myself but I'm already at the $225 level and I want my dollie!
MagickalMemories wrote: The only thing I want out of the KS is the Wicked Doll. I've got a 14 year old daughter who would love the creepy thing.
Am I correct in my estimation that there's no way for someone who's supporting the KS to order extra copies of the doll? I can't seem to find a way.
Eric
Hi, I've been considering getting the combo, but it's rather pricey for me. If you're just interested in the doll, I might be up for splitting off the doll for the right price. (So as to not derail the thread) PM me if you want to talk.
I don't see their weekly rewards being a game changer unless they offer up more rewards like the model from the first week. ...
I actually see the weekly rewards as potentially backfiring rather spectacularly: it exerts a powerful incentive against the kind of last-few-days surge that most campaigns rely on to make a good chunk of their money.
Think about it, " Everyone who has already pledged and everyone else who makes a pledge ($60 and up) by Friday 5 p.m. PST (12/7) will automatically earn a bonus reward": so the rewards are entirely oriented towards people that pledged early. If you pledged the first day, you got the special miniature. If you pledged by this week, you get the adventure, while the first day pledger gets the adventure in addition to the first week goal.
Now walk this out to January and the end of the campaign: presuming the trend continues, people that knew about the kickstarter and could spare the cash in the holiday shopping season* will have accrued a half dozen or so "bonus rewards" that late pledgers will not be able to get. As people are pointing out, a huge amount of kickstarter is psychology: who wants to jump onto a campaign knowing that people pledging the same amount of money are getting twice the stuff you are?
With every passing week, this kickstarter becomes less psychologically attractive to new backers, not more. The guy who finds out about the campaign at 6PM Friday has missed out on 2 "bonus rewards", and he can't get them. Not just can't get them free, but flat out can't buy them anywhere but the secondary market.
*I would also point out that this group of people are almost certainly the group least in need of incentives, since they were the big Wyrd fans. Giving your fans something extra is great, until it makes your product so "exclusive" that it is unattractive to the uninitiated.
I didn't see anywhere that the Penny Dreadful PDF scenerio wasn't going to be offerend later on...
I can see where your coming from and if this weeks early backer reward had been more substantial I'd probably agree with you. Unfortunatly the pdf is a bit underwhelming when compared to some of the limited edition models being offered as stretch rewards. Unless the early backer rewards get more substantial in the future I don't think its going to have that big an effect on the last day bump. I also think this project is going to receive a significant after Christmas bump once people start spending the cash they got as gifts for the holidays. I could be wrong, and I actually look forward to finding out which one of use is right.
I'm getting Through the Breach, 3 minis worth roughly 11 dollars each, a 12 dollar fate deck (when compared to the other plastic decks), a LE mini worth about 20 to 40 (by ebay standards), which means that if Hannah's normal sculpt is worth at least 21 dollars, I'll have made out in the positive for 125 bucks...
Regardless of what happens while the KS is live, I win in some regard.
Alfndrate wrote: I'm getting Through the Breach, 3 minis worth roughly 11 dollars each, a 12 dollar fate deck (when compared to the other plastic decks), a LE mini worth about 20 to 40 (by ebay standards), which means that if Hannah's normal sculpt is worth at least 21 dollars, I'll have made out in the positive for 125 bucks...
Regardless of what happens while the KS is live, I win in some regard.
True enough.
It is just puzzling as to "why" it's on Kickstarter at all.
They seem to go almost out of their way to not use the Kickstarter-infrastructure / features.
- The have early pledger exclusives, but don't use Kickstarter limited pledges.
- The make it a point to not be present in the Kickstarter comment-feed and move the "news" elsewhere.
- The make it a point not to have (relevant) stretch goals or any form of escalating campaign dynamic, despite clearing having stuff up their sleeve to hand out.
- etc..
For all their talk about "not doing a pre-order-store"; I cannot think of a single Kickstarter that felt more like one.
What stopped them from just saying on the Wyrd site... hey.. we're doing a Malifaux RPG next summer. Here's our online shop. If pre-order before day X, you get a free mini on top! -?
I'd wager they'd capture at least 95% of those "in" the Kickstarter just the same, probabyl 100%,, mainly because the vast majority of pledges is from those early pledges who have been F5'ing the Wyrd/Kickstarter site ever since they announced the RPG in the first place. And they seem to take no effort to "spread the word" and entice newcomers, if not - as Buzzsaw notes - actively discourage those that arrive late to the campaign through a long chain of viral info.
Catyrpelius wrote: I didn't see anywhere that the Penny Dreadful PDF scenerio wasn't going to be offerend later on...
I'm not sure what you mean: do you mean you think it will be offered as a stretch goal? There seems to be indication you will be allowed to buy it, certainly. It's quite clearly a time limited reward in it's current incarnation, recycling it would seem very likely to cause bad PR.
Given the structure of this campaign, I don't see any easy way for the rewards to be made more available without backlash.
Catyrpelius wrote: I can see where your coming from and if this weeks early backer reward had been more substantial I'd probably agree with you. Unfortunatly the pdf is a bit underwhelming when compared to some of the limited edition models being offered as stretch rewards. Unless the early backer rewards get more substantial in the future I don't think its going to have that big an effect on the last day bump. I also think this project is going to receive a significant after Christmas bump once people start spending the cash they got as gifts for the holidays. I could be wrong, and I actually look forward to finding out which one of use is right.
Remember, my point is as to the cumulative nature of these rewards: is a single PDF underwhelming? Of course (though they apparently disagree, since an entirely redundant PDF is the $250,000 stretch... along with a tree, of course...). But it's not just a single PDF.
Pledged the first week? You got an LE miniature, and now a PDF adventure, and you'll get something next week (since they confirm there will be a bonus next week as well).
Suppose the further "bonus rewards" are just PDFs (which seems unlikely), there are 4 fulls weeks left to accrue these: do you really think that late backers won't feel a bit cheated to see that early backers get up to a half-dozen free rewards?
Alfndrate wrote:I'm getting Through the Breach, 3 [random] minis worth roughly 11 dollars each, a 12 dollar fate deck (when compared to the other plastic decks), a LE mini* worth about 20 to 40 (by ebay standards), which means that if Hannah's normal sculpt is worth at least 21 dollars, I'll have made out in the positive for 125 bucks...
Regardless of what happens while the KS is live, I win in some regard.
This is actually an excellent example of what I'm talking about: Alf lists the $125 items*, but of course (since he pledged early), he is quite up on the deal, since he's also getting,
-A "Miss Terious" LE from the first week bonus,
-A PDF from this week,
-Something from next week...
And so on. Pledge the week after Christmas and you've missed out on an LE, a PDF and 2 other bonuses. For Alf and others that felt the initial deal was good, the deal just keeps getting better. For people that either couldn't pledge early or simply didn't think the deal without the stretches was worth it, the deal keeps getting worse by comparison. Again, by comparison, this is the psychology of marketing we're talking about here.
*My presumption from the way this is phrased that the LE in question is the Hanna, not the Miss T.
Sorry buzz, I'm only considering the Miss Terious model as a value and not the pdf, simply based on what I can and cannot physically spend cash on. If the penny dreadfuls will be released outside the KS then that adds to my value, and does increase the chances of me playing the game (since I suck when it comes to creating adventures). Miss T is going for 20 to 40 bucks on ebay, which is why I mentioned the price of the normal hannah sculpt because if that sculpt is worth at least 21 dollars, I make out like a bandit.
Note: Idk if anyone else has noticed this, but the second through sixth updates are not backers only, so anyone can see this and see, "Hey if I pledge now" I can get x, y, and z, sadly I do miss out on c though. It is definitely not a surprise as to a backer backing late and missing this stuff (not that anyone has said it was a surprise...)
@Buzz - From what I understand this weeks "Weekly Reward" is just a free copy of their first encounter. I entirely expect to see this released for a fee in the future.
I'd actually like to see some form of analysis of kickstarter projects that focuses on the increases seen in the final few days. From what I've seen alot of the final days rush is people who got in early adjusting their pledge levels to get the best deal for their money. I have nothing to back that up with though.
Regardless though there isn't a reason not to back a project early through Kickstarter, it costs you litterly nothing to back a project before it closes and kickstarter doesn't care if you cancel your pledge.
Alfndrate wrote: Sorry buzz, I'm only considering the Miss Terious model as a value and not the pdf, simply based on what I can and cannot physically spend cash on. If the penny dreadfuls will be released outside the KS then that adds to my value, and does increase the chances of me playing the game (since I suck when it comes to creating adventures). Miss T is going for 20 to 40 bucks on ebay, which is why I mentioned the price of the normal hannah sculpt because if that sculpt is worth at least 21 dollars, I make out like a bandit.
Ahhh, I didn't want to assume that, it seemed to make my point unnecessarily strong: that is, the $125 is a decent value, if it includes the second LE.
Which if you pledge today (or any point hence), you can't get.
I just don't get it. As Zwei said, why even bother putting this on Kickstarter instead of just putting up a very long term pre-order? What have they done to make this appeal to people that haven't already backed? They seem almost actively hostile towards the idea of people jumping on this later.
HERP DERP >_< Alf, reading comprehension is a good thing.
Caty is right, In Defense of Innocence is the first official adventure for Through the Breach, meaning that it might be a good fifty pages, we'll see though. So add another 15 to 20 bucks to that estimate of value...
Alfndrate wrote: Sorry buzz, I'm only considering the Miss Terious model as a value and not the pdf, simply based on what I can and cannot physically spend cash on. If the penny dreadfuls will be released outside the KS then that adds to my value, and does increase the chances of me playing the game (since I suck when it comes to creating adventures). Miss T is going for 20 to 40 bucks on ebay, which is why I mentioned the price of the normal hannah sculpt because if that sculpt is worth at least 21 dollars, I make out like a bandit.
Ahhh, I didn't want to assume that, it seemed to make my point unnecessarily strong: that is, the $125 is a decent value, if it includes the second LE.
Which if you pledge today (or any point hence), you can't get.
I just don't get it. As Zwei said, why even bother putting this on Kickstarter instead of just putting up a very long term pre-order? What have they done to make this appeal to people that haven't already backed? They seem almost actively hostile towards the idea of people jumping on this later.
Because if they put it up for preorder on their website they miss out on all the cheap advertising that Kickstarter gives.
Unfortunatly in my eyes PDF's have zero value for me.
Alfndrate wrote: Sorry buzz, I'm only considering the Miss Terious model as a value and not the pdf, simply based on what I can and cannot physically spend cash on. If the penny dreadfuls will be released outside the KS then that adds to my value, and does increase the chances of me playing the game (since I suck when it comes to creating adventures). Miss T is going for 20 to 40 bucks on ebay, which is why I mentioned the price of the normal hannah sculpt because if that sculpt is worth at least 21 dollars, I make out like a bandit.
Ahhh, I didn't want to assume that, it seemed to make my point unnecessarily strong: that is, the $125 is a decent value, if it includes the second LE.
Which if you pledge today (or any point hence), you can't get.
I just don't get it. As Zwei said, why even bother putting this on Kickstarter instead of just putting up a very long term pre-order? What have they done to make this appeal to people that haven't already backed? They seem almost actively hostile towards the idea of people jumping on this later.
Because if they put it up for preorder on their website they miss out on all the cheap advertising that Kickstarter gives.
Unfortunatly in my eyes PDF's have zero value for me.
Agreed, I'd consider a 5 dollar value if it was printed and bound like one of those cheap intro adventures you get on free RPG day.
Catyrpelius wrote: @Buzz - From what I understand this weeks "Weekly Reward" is just a free copy of their first encounter. I entirely expect to see this released for a fee in the future.
Of course. I'm not sure how that detracts from the point I made about it though. Whatever value you assign to the adventure PDF is value that a late backer is "robbed" of. If you value it as Alf does (" add another 15 to 20 bucks to that estimate of value... "), $15-20, of a level with the first week LE, then by the end, the difference in value between a pledge in the first week and a pledge in the last week is an extra ~$100! Who would be happy to see that? Who wouldn't be prompted to take their holiday money elsewhere?
Catyrpelius wrote: I'd actually like to see some form of analysis of kickstarter projects that focuses on the increases seen in the final few days. From what I've seen alot of the final days rush is people who got in early adjusting their pledge levels to get the best deal for their money. I have nothing to back that up with though.
The available information doesn't seem to support that: consider a few recent kickstarters;
-Bombshell babes: 287 out of 1126 backers pledged in the final 3 day spike (~25%),
-Relic Knights: 1129 out of 3459 backers in the last few days (arguably the spike started 4-5 days out on that one), (~33%).
-Dreamforge Games: 224 out of 782 in the final four (I have a vague recollection this ended lat at night, causing wonkyness with the stats), (~29%).
-Reaper: 9430 out of 17682, a whopping ~53%(!) of backers in the last 3 days.
The available information seems prima facia to support the notion that the really big campaigns work by convincing the late deciders that their deal is "too good to refuse".
Polonius wrote: I know they say to just wait to buy retail if I don't like the KS, but that misses the point of using a KS to drum up interest: I'm not gonna buy it retail! If anything, I'll grab a used copy a few years after the game implodes for pennies on the dollar, or trade for a copy on the Swap Shop.
This does seem to be the logical conclusion to their KS-related actions. Unless this is some kind of revolutionary RPG, I bet it will only be remembered by the gaming community at large for the terrible kickstarter.
Catyrpelius wrote: @Buzz - From what I understand this weeks "Weekly Reward" is just a free copy of their first encounter. I entirely expect to see this released for a fee in the future.
Of course. I'm not sure how that detracts from the point I made about it though. Whatever value you assign to the adventure PDF is value that a late backer is "robbed" of. If you value it as Alf does (" add another 15 to 20 bucks to that estimate of value... "), $15-20, of a level with the first week LE, then by the end, the difference in value between a pledge in the first week and a pledge in the last week is an extra ~$100! Who would be happy to see that? Who wouldn't be prompted to take their holiday money elsewhere?
I'm not trying to say that I agree with what Wyrd is doing in their kickstarter, I never think its a good thing to alieanate backers at any point. What I was trying to get across was simply that I don't think it's going to make that big of a difference one way or another. I personally think that Wyrd had a plan going into this, a few days in I think they realised that their plan wasn't going to work. The things they've done recently have been them trying to put out the fires that they started and keep some momentum to their project.
To put an actual value on a Penny Dreadful I'd have to know wether they are going to be like the Pathfinder Adventure Paths or if their going to be like the one night campaigns you can download for a few dollars through the Pathfinder Society.
I think in the end though, the rewards your going to get for backing early are going to be small when compared with what you get with the main stretch goals.
I'm not trying to say that I agree with what Wyrd is doing in their kickstarter, I never think its a good thing to alieanate backers at any point. What I was trying to get across was simply that I don't think it's going to make that big of a difference one way or another.
I think it WILL make a difference. I think Wyrd would see a higher total without alienating people. Myself, even if I did decide it was worth it to me, I wouldn't back it now, just out of disappointment from feeling that my late support was penalized by the lack of swag that others got.
@ everyone: Again... my FEELING... I didn't say it was their intent to penalize me.
Personally, I don't see WHY they would limit it. It should matter to them WHEN I support it, just THAT I support it.
BrookM wrote: Just a neutral remark here, not taking sides, but that's the beauty with Kickstarter, you can pledge now but don't pay until it is over.
^ This, I've never really seen the point of waiting with kickstarter...
I pledged early and will likely leave my pledge unchanged until the last few days. During that time, I'll reevaluate my pledge to see if the money is still worth what I'll be receiving or not. That's when I'll make my final decision to stay or pull out.
While I've been critical of a perceived (rightly or not) entitlement mentality, I must agree with other who point out that this kickstarter could certainly have been handled much better than what Wyrd is doing. I certainly can't point to this and use the word "genius". Oh, well, like the old saying goes, "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance..."
) that they are going to be 100%, 150% past their funding goal, and no stretch goals posted. Again, I think they are backloading. No doubt there is a strategy we simply aren't seeing.
What? Why would this be random, and why one rather then a pair? They are adding a non-limited edition plastic kit piece, the cost to them for producing more of a piece they are already producing is literally measured in cents per unit.
and another $500 to Trollforged's 
