Yeah, originally Santana was a gift to Henchman who ran enough events during the summer campaign, or those of us that worked at least a day's worth of work at GenCon. We weren't allowed to tell our players about it, show the concept art, or even let them know of it's existence.
Alfndrate wrote: Yeah, originally Santana was a gift to Henchman who ran enough events during the summer campaign, or those of us that worked at least a day's worth of work at GenCon. We weren't allowed to tell our players about it, show the concept art, or even let them know of it's existence.
Yeah, what a great use of a miniature gaming model
"Here's this awesome model... now go put it in your closet!"
(To be fair... there's where most of mine end up, anyway )
She's currently sitting in her box, I pulled her out long enough to oooh and aaahh over it, and then realized I don't play that crew, but probably will in the future.
She's either going to get painted up and used as display, or I'll set her aside for prize support. Or I'll get a second from this KS drive and use that one as prize support lol.
cincydooley wrote:I just think their 'special models' for this are lazy on all fronts. I know with Santana they said that she may be made available later for something, but I just dont think this is the right something.
IMO, they should have a KS exclusive model. That way, it would at least show they put some additionally effort into making the KS 'special' instead of just rehashing stuff they already have.
The way Wyrd does their miniatures, they always have later periods of availability to get exclusive minis (like their birthday this year). Particularly if the exclusives are plastic, there's never going to be an exclusive available for one thing then never again. However, with that factored in, they do already have a mini made special for the kickstarter - the Hannah miniature. There'll likely be other occasions to get it, but it's the kickstarter exclusive.
As to using old exclusives being lazy - I think it's one of the smartest ideas for stretch goals. They draw people in, but have already been produced and Wyrd knows the cost ahead of time. There's issues with the placement of stretches, the selection of some of them, and the quantity of them, but the limited edition stretches are great from a miniatures perspective (from a pure RPG perspective, the stretches haven't been as great).
She's not a KS exclusive at all. I've already had that confirmed. And based on WHEN this will probably actually ship, I'd expect it to be the "special edition" GenCon mini.
It's lazy because they're not doing anything to make the KS special, as I already said. These are models that already exist, and it takes them literally no effort to add them in. The Hanging Tree they're thrown in there because they had a TON left over at GenCon. I don't have any sales figures to back this up, but based on apperances and general response at GenCon, it wasn't terribly well received.
cincydooley wrote: She's not a KS exclusive at all. I've already had that confirmed. And based on WHEN this will probably actually ship, I'd expect it to be the "special edition" GenCon mini.
It's lazy because they're not doing anything to make the KS special, as I already said. These are models that already exist, and it takes them literally no effort to add them in. The Hanging Tree they're thrown in there because they had a TON left over at GenCon. I don't have any sales figures to back this up, but based on apperances and general response at GenCon, it wasn't terribly well received.
There aren't many projects that have made minatures exclusivly for Kickstarter. There are alot of projects that have had limited edition stuff created because of Kickstarter but the majority of them have been avalible in some other way later on.
I doubt Hannah is going to be the special edition, spend over $100 and get her free, model for gencon. It's to specific and useable by two few crews. Generally this model has been essentially a mercanary i.e. Miss Demener, an alternate Convict Gunslinger and Miss Terious, an alternate Death Marshal.
there will be another version of the RPG Fate Deck, and an alternate sculpt of Hannah available for retail at some point after the Kickstarter
Which leads me to believe that the fate deck and this particular sculpt of Hannah will not be mass produced for retail sale.
Note that like Miss Terious, Santana and other such limited edition figures, I totally expect some to sneak out in the future, be they tournament prizes, Passport to Malifaux objectives, or just snagged through limited release during one of their big event sales (Black Friday/Birthday/Easter/Whatever). So "exclusive" may not mean "never available again, period, end of story, go away", but I doubt there'll be 30 on a store's shelves either.
there will be another version of the RPG Fate Deck, and an alternate sculpt of Hannah available for retail at some point after the Kickstarter
Which leads me to believe that the fate deck and this particular sculpt of Hannah will not be mass produced for retail sale.
I think the complaint is that the only things that are currently actually exclusive to kickstarter are the hardbound book and the doll... I think people are looking for exclusive things rather than special edition/limited things
there will be another version of the RPG Fate Deck, and an alternate sculpt of Hannah available for retail at some point after the Kickstarter
Which leads me to believe that the fate deck and this particular sculpt of Hannah will not be mass produced for retail sale.
Note that like Miss Terious, Santana and other such limited edition figures, I totally expect some to sneak out in the future, be they tournament prizes, Passport to Malifaux objectives, or just snagged through limited release during one of their big event sales (Black Friday/Birthday/Easter/Whatever). So "exclusive" may not mean "never available again, period, end of story, go away", but I doubt there'll be 30 on a store's shelves either.
Cinc confirmed this by direct communication with Jacqulyn at Wyrd;
By definition, special edition means that the model may be available during special promotions at some point in the future.
This applies to any item we have labeled as "Special Edition." Any item that is labeled "Kickstarter Exclusive" will be available exclusively through Kickstarter.
Hope this helps! Please let us know if you have any more questions we can help with.
Jacqulyn
While it is true (as Catyrpelius notes) that items marked as "kickstarter exclusive" are frequently later put to other uses, Wyrd has chose to define the term "Kickstarter Exclusive" as "available exclusively through Kickstarter".
As of now, to the best of my knowledge, only 2 items are marked as "Kickstarter Exclusive": the doll from the $225 pledge level, and the hardcover book from the said pledge level and the "living room" $125 pledge.
Right, which to me just means "we might sell/give away/prize support out any that are left laying around the office".
Which is close enough to "kickstarter exclusive" in my eyes. As in, the best/easiest way to get one is to be a backer. If they end up to 25 of them left on shelves and want to toss them out as prizes or for limited purchase on the store during the next Black Friday/Birthday sale, it wouldn't bother me any.
Like, NE LCB was "Gencon exclusive" from a couple years back. Didn't prevent me from buying 1 of 13 leftover a few weeks back, which in turn doesn't make me think it wasn't 'exclusive', just that I got lucky a few were left collecting dust from failed transactions.
Forar wrote: Right, which to me just means "we might sell/give away/prize support out any that are left laying around the office".
Which is close enough to "kickstarter exclusive" in my eyes. As in, the best/easiest way to get one is to be a backer. If they end up to 25 of them left on shelves and want to toss them out as prizes or for limited purchase on the store during the next Black Friday/Birthday sale, it wouldn't bother me any.
Like, NE LCB was "Gencon exclusive" from a couple years back. Didn't prevent me from buying 1 of 13 leftover a few weeks back, which in turn doesn't make me think it wasn't 'exclusive', just that I got lucky a few were left collecting dust from failed transactions.
She was pretty clear that the only things that were KS exclusives were noted as such. Simply put, I very much disagree with your assessment.
It's Mack again, and I get to make the update today! Here in the Wyrd office we are starting to hemorrhage people due to holiday travel plans. Since we're down to just a skeleton crew, I'm stepping in to do the updates. I'll actually be handling the updates all next week! I won't be doing one on Christmas day, however, I'm gonna take a whole day off!
Also, while the updates will be happening on the other days, they might come at odd times, as I'm hard at work on the game and tend to get "in the zone." These updates will be a bit more of a "designer's blog" when compared to other updates. I hope you guys don't mind the change in pace for a few days.
I've got another Breach Side Chat happening tomorrow, December 21st... assuming of course that the world doesn't end before 3pm PST. Here's the link: http://ustream.tv/channel/through-the-breach.
Hey, speaking of getting "in the zone," today we hit a pretty big milestone with Through The Breach's progress. I now have the combat rules finished! That might not seem like much, but looking at a full rules, skills, and character creation chapters means one big thing... I'm ready for internal playtesting! That means we are clipping right along!
Tomorrow I plan to sit down and really dig into the magic system. I've talked about my plans a little on Breach Side Chat when it comes to magic. By tommorrow's chat I should have a really firm grasp on things. In one of next weeks update's I'll be able to show an example magic power and maybe even a tome!
And don't forget... you better not pout... I'm telling you why...
It's Mack again, and I get to make the update today! Here in the Wyrd office we are starting to hemorrhage people due to holiday travel plans. Since we're down to just a skeleton crew, I'm stepping in to do the updates. I'll actually be handling the updates all next week! I won't be doing one on Christmas day, however, I'm gonna take a whole day off!
Also, while the updates will be happening on the other days, they might come at odd times, as I'm hard at work on the game and tend to get "in the zone." These updates will be a bit more of a "designer's blog" when compared to other updates. I hope you guys don't mind the change in pace for a few days.
I've got another Breach Side Chat happening tomorrow, December 21st... assuming of course that the world doesn't end before 3pm PST. Here's the link: http://ustream.tv/channel/through-the-breach.
Hey, speaking of getting "in the zone," today we hit a pretty big milestone with Through The Breach's progress. I now have the combat rules finished! That might not seem like much, but looking at a full rules, skills, and character creation chapters means one big thing... I'm ready for internal playtesting! That means we are clipping right along!
Tomorrow I plan to sit down and really dig into the magic system. I've talked about my plans a little on Breach Side Chat when it comes to magic. By tommorrow's chat I should have a really firm grasp on things. In one of next weeks update's I'll be able to show an example magic power and maybe even a tome!
And don't forget... you better not pout... I'm telling you why...
Hmm, I might be that we get some extra information out of Mack then we'd normally get...
It also looks like they have stoped the weekly early backer rewards.
cincydooley wrote: She was pretty clear that the only things that were KS exclusives were noted as such. Simply put, I very much disagree with your assessment.
Given that it would be hypocritical of me to love that I may get a Santana (a previously OMGEXCLUSIVE figure) and hate that Hannah might end up in extra hands, I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
cincydooley wrote: She was pretty clear that the only things that were KS exclusives were noted as such. Simply put, I very much disagree with your assessment.
Given that it would be hypocritical of me to love that I may get a Santana (a previously OMGEXCLUSIVE figure) and hate that Hannah might end up in extra hands, I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
We'll find out in 9 months or so either way.
For me atleast I enjoy getting a rare model before others and that is what sounds like is going to happen.
Also I saw something about the hannah sculpt that people in this kickstarter are getting being a different pose then the one that will be released later on.
Also I saw something about the hannah sculpt that people in this kickstarter are getting being a different pose then the one that will be released later on.
Yeah, but the lack of "KS exclusive" means that it'll almost certainly appear elsewhere once or twice-- IIRC all Wyrd special minis have appeared at least twice, mostly 3-4 times (though some windows are quite brief).
Also I saw something about the hannah sculpt that people in this kickstarter are getting being a different pose then the one that will be released later on.
Yeah, but the lack of "KS exclusive" means that it'll almost certainly appear elsewhere once or twice-- IIRC all Wyrd special minis have appeared at least twice, mostly 3-4 times (though some windows are quite brief).
As long as I don't see special edition or limited edition stuff for sale at my FLGS I'm happy.
Eh, fair enough-- while I don't like it that much on principle, it did mean I was able to score LCB for less than $200, so I can't complain. BTW, like the new avatar.
Might even get a few of the Dining Room or Living Room gamers to bump up to 225...
And for completeness of the news:
Salutations!
It's Mack here again! I'm doing the update a bit ahead of schedule today, 'cus I might duck out early for the holiday.
It's time to announce the arrival of Santana Claus! Now is your chance to score one of the very special limited edition Santana miniatures!
We are doing something a little different, so the stretch goal for our limited edition Santana model isn't based on the overall pledge amount. Instead, if we get 500 people pledging at the Game Room Level ($225 or more), we're going to add a Limited Edition Santana model to all of the Game Room Pledge Levels! This offer is void if the world ends by tonight at midnight.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Eh, fair enough-- while I don't like it that much on principle, it did mean I was able to score LCB for less than $200, so I can't complain. BTW, like the new avatar.
Thanks, it was time for a change.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
decker_cky wrote: It's official, Santana for $225 pledges if there's at least 500 pledges of $225 by the end of the KS (the 180 extra pledges should easily be reached).
Neat, it was also nice to see the update come alittle earlier in the day.
Alfndrate wrote: Might even get a few of the Dining Room or Living Room gamers to bump up to 225...
I'm about 80% likely to increase my pledge, and I know a few more who will do the same. Santana is selling online at $100+ regularly, so if you consider how much extra it adds, it's a pretty good deal for the extra stuff dining room includes.
Caty, Mack did say he might try to sneak off a bit early for the holidays, and he won't be able to type up the post very well while he's doing his breachside chat at 3 PST... I was very happy to see this while it was still daylight lol, since I most likely wouldn't have seen it until 11 or so tonight
decker_cky wrote: It's official, Santana for $225 pledges if there's at least 500 pledges of $225 by the end of the KS (the 180 extra pledges should easily be reached).
Easily Reached? Seriously?
What a weird 'stretch' goal. This goal basically says "You know what, we don't care if we get any new backers." Amazing.
And the Multi-Part model had me so close to upping my pledge....
decker_cky wrote: It's official, Santana for $225 pledges if there's at least 500 pledges of $225 by the end of the KS (the 180 extra pledges should easily be reached).
Easily Reached? Seriously?
Wait and see...this will easily be reached by the end of the kickstarter - it's a significant increase in value for malifaux players, who are likely the biggest drivers of pledges. If the campaign reaches $250k, it's likely because of the addition of Santana only to the highest level (and Santana makes that much more likely).
cincydooley wrote: What a weird 'stretch' goal. This goal basically says "You know what, we don't care if we get any new backers." Amazing.
And the Multi-Part model had me so close to upping my pledge....
It's an improvement to the kickstarter designed to get backers to increase their pledges. No different than the typical stretches which let people spend more money, only there's a larger step than is typically included. Getting a very cool single infantry sized model that typically sells for over $100 online is worth it to many.
Also...how does this addition hurt your inclination to pledge? It makes the top pledge better value (that was an issue) but doesn't change the value proposition of the other levels, except that it makes it more likely for the stretches to be reached (meaning that this really increases the value of the other pledges).
Putting the Santana model (potentially) at the $225 level is one of the brightest things Wyrd has done. It will encourage higher bids, stretch goals might start ticking over as well.
Makes me want to consider upping my bid and I was on the fence for staying with the project a week ago.
EDIT: They can do what they like with miniatures before or after the kickstarter for all I care - if I get a lovely mini, game and bunch of extras at a good price I'm a happy bunny. It's nice to get a kickstarter exclusive, but I can see why Wyrd would want to re-use special miniatures
02Laney wrote: Putting the Santana model (potentially) at the $225 level is one of the brightest things Wyrd has done. It will encourage higher bids, stretch goals might start ticking over as well.
Makes me want to consider upping my bid and I was on the fence for staying with the project a week ago.
EDIT: They can do what they like with miniatures before or after the kickstarter for all I care - if I get a lovely mini, game and bunch of extras at a good price I'm a happy bunny. It's nice to get a kickstarter exclusive, but I can see why Wyrd would want to re-use special miniatures
Laney
I'm fairly certain that any company doing plastic injection molds will tell you that the expensive part is get the mold made. Once it's made and you pay it off, the sprues themselves are pennies to make. Let them make all the Santanas, Miss Teriouses and Nightmare Trees they want (though they probably don't have to make too many of the trees )...
Hmm, interesting. I'm feeling like it would have been better for Wyrd to not have the "when it reaches 500" part, because I know I'd have been more likely to impulse jump my level if it had been automatic, rather than a weird stretch goal.
Still a very smart move, as (at least, at the current market value) that adds maybe $100 to the value of the $225 level.
Well, Wyrd is pushing the higher levels to the realm of "interested" from "too much for me", and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seems the Santana thing is working-- a notable (not huge, but substantially better) jump in backers and funding today.
Here's the thing about the $225 level: there's a ton of gak in it I just dont want or need. I don't want or need the hardcover and the paper back. I certainly don't want or need that stupid ass doll. That's literally half the pledge level.
It also makes their "sweet spot" level an absurdly high $225 dollars, and like I said before, one that is full of redundancies and useless crap (clearly I don't think much of that stupid doll).
I'm over the fact that Santana is the model. Do I still think it's lazy? Absolutely. I already have her so I'm not too broken up about it, but then again I'm not a henchman that was told it would be a relatively exclusive model.
I think providing the Hanging Tree is basically them going, "Man, we have a lot of this POS left from GenCon, how can we clear inventory?"
Couple that with the fact that, if you decide to back now to get Santana, you're STILL missing out on two other "early pledger" goals.
I understand why they've added Santana. I just don't agree with how they've added her.
Wait and see...this will easily be reached by the end of the kickstarter - it's a significant increase in value for malifaux players, who are likely the biggest drivers of pledges. If the campaign reaches $250k, it's likely because of the addition of Santana only to the highest level (and Santana makes that much more likely).
It's an improvement to the kickstarter designed to get backers to increase their pledges. No different than the typical stretches which let people spend more money, only there's a larger step than is typically included. Getting a very cool single infantry sized model that typically sells for over $100 online is worth it to many.
Also...how does this addition hurt your inclination to pledge? It makes the top pledge better value (that was an issue) but doesn't change the value proposition of the other levels, except that it makes it more likely for the stretches to be reached (meaning that this really increases the value of the other pledges).
Our definititions of "easily" must vary quite a bit. I'll be surprised if this thing hits the $225K stretch goal. If it trends with an average $$ addition like it has been for the last two weeks, It's going to be lucky to hit $200K. Because of the penalties for not backing early, I don't see this one getting the late bump that many KSes do.
It hurts my inclination to pledge because I have no interest in upping my pledge $100 for a single model. It ONLY makes the top pledge a "better" value, and it absolutely changes the "value" of the other levels because none of them include Santana. Just like backing now is has less value than backing initially, because you've already 'lost' two 'early backer' rewards.
cincydooley wrote: It also makes their "sweet spot" level an absurdly high $225 dollars
This is kind of my problem with it- that, and the redundancy (not annoyed by the maligned doll).
I feel like a more reasonable goal would have been all $125+ get a santana after the combined total hits 1000. It's both a smaller stretch and a smaller jump for some, while an immediate freebie for others (which is also the case with the current version. Either way, some will get it for free, which will feel good for them, but they'll also not be upping their pledge, so, good and bad). The biggest disadvantage here is just that santana would be proportionally less valuable in the aftermarket.
Is it definitely the Santana figure that the henchmen got? If it was a Christmas themed KS model or alt pose that would surely prove a bigger incentive?
Souleater wrote: Is it definitely the Santana figure that the henchmen got? If it was a Christmas themed KS model or alt pose that would surely prove a bigger incentive?
It is definitely Santana Ortega. This kickstarter has been very specific with it's language. Nothing says it's a kickstarter exclusive or it is any different than the normal santana ortega. It's just a play on Santa Claus via Santana Claus.
Souleater wrote: Is it definitely the Santana figure that the henchmen got? If it was a Christmas themed KS model or alt pose that would surely prove a bigger incentive?
It is definitely Santana Ortega. This kickstarter has been very specific with it's language. Nothing says it's a kickstarter exclusive or it is any different than the normal santana ortega. It's just a play on Santa Claus via Santana Claus.
Not to mention they've been very specific about wanting to keep costs down (ie; the oft commented on re-using of Miss Terious, the Hanging Tree, and the possible future re-use (does that make this a pre-use?) of Hannah). Getting another sculpt and mold made up would run a bit counter to that goal.
Presumably they just made, like, 1000 Santanas, sent off a couple hundred to the henchmen, and are using (some of?) the remainder for this.
That's only if they reach 500 $225 backers, which I really can't see happening. A few changed their level to the 225 amount, but it's not happening nearly enough for the miniature to be given.
It's a bit mean to offer something shiny to someone knowing that in all probability you'll not have to actually give it to them.
~150 in 18 days, at the rate the KS has been going? Yeah, even if it happens, it's not going to be easy.
I'm even less optimistic about the 250k stretches being hit, which is a shame because even though the tree doesn't wow me per se, 'free' terrain (on top of what I'm already paying for, that is) is 'free' terrain.
Honestly, I hope they stop doing early backer rewards and have saved at least one last decent thing as a last minute bonus/boost. Obviously it can't be anything too extravagant (again with the cost minimizing thing), but something to draw in that last minute flurry of interest.
It's not too late to stir up a bit of a frenzy, and nice as Miss T is, if that's all the late comers are missing (and lets be honest here, the PDF is not something to worry about, I'm sure it'll be easily available the moment it's sent out), the right incentive could easily outweigh any reservations.
Guess we'll find out in two and a half weeks. 2 days in the quadruple digits certainly isn't cause for celebration, but at least it's a step in the right direction.
Not to sure if Alf is around or not but incase he isn't:
Voila! Also, uh.. Ta-daaaah?
Update #19
Salutations!
It's Mack, your friendly neighborhood game designer. I'm updating a bit early today, as I've got my own family festivities to be getting too. I hope you all don't mind, and are able to enjoy some holiday cheer with your friends and family.
Today's update won't have a lot of yammering from me. I'm saving that for when I don't have cool pictures to show. This is the current line art for the contents of the female multi-part sprue. Things are subject to change, but I thought you might like to see how it's shaping up!
So, without a furthering of the aformentioned yammerings...
Wow. I have to say, the possibilities with this figure are really, really cool so far, even if they do change in the final. There are so many different characters I was mentally building with all the matchies, it is so much fun! They really do need to make the multipose minis general release, if they haven't said they would do so already....
Fenriswulf wrote: That's only if they reach 500 $225 backers, which I really can't see happening. A few changed their level to the 225 amount, but it's not happening nearly enough for the miniature to be given.
It's a bit mean to offer something shiny to someone knowing that in all probability you'll not have to actually give it to them.
The problem is there's no real incentive to do it unless you know its going to hit 500 at the $225 pledge level. You're honestly better off buying the living room and dining room, and selling the extra tree and books. People are waiting to see if it gets close, so its goint to take a lot throwing in in good faith to get others to make the leap as well. The bad thing is if it doesn't make it, you're going to see pledges dropping down on the last day.
Having pledged on the first day and then like most others been disappointed by the whole way this has been run I had left it alone for a while. Looking at it now though with the art for the multipose minis released its actually starting to look like a really good deal.
For $125 you get:
9 multipose minis (assuming legs are the limiting factor)
the Freikorps archivist
a fate deck
two books
And Miss T and the adventure for pledging early, I think I'll stay in afterall
Yeah. I was extremely tentative with if my pledge would stick around at first. Now, I'm a bit more hopeful. With 17 days left, even at the slow clip, we're basically assured of the FM screen and there is even a chance of the tree being in the mix (I'm not holding my breath here about it, though). So my $125 pledge could very well yield some good results. Although, I'm really hoping they consider adding a 4th multi-pose mini, and making it 2 of each sex at something like 225k.
I can't see why they wouldn't make the MPM's a general product for later purchase. It seems to have attracted some attention, and even for groups that don't use minis for combat, I think there'll be some appeal in making "your character" as a mini and painting it up.
Agreed about adding a 4th MPM and just giving us 2 of each gender. My group has 3 people at 158/269, so 3 male, 3 female and 3 random minis, but I know at least 2 people will want female boxes, possibly 4+, so depending on our luck we might have just enough, or fall a little short. Getting 6 and 6 would pretty much be perfect. Maybe toss it at $225k to help smooth out the push to 250 (again, if we even get close; I'm keeping grounded about those odds, but I agree 200 is pretty much in the bag).
Be interesting to see how the next 2 weeks go. Maybe they have some stuff in store to really 'wow' the community, but if that's the case, it's a shame it'll have taken a month to six weeks to come out, as those first 4 or so (aside from the initial 3 day drive) have been a roller coaster of optimism and talking people off ledges (Figuratively. Mostly.)
Forar wrote: I can't see why they wouldn't make the MPM's a general product for later purchase. It seems to have attracted some attention, and even for groups that don't use minis for combat, I think there'll be some appeal in making "your character" as a mini and painting it up.
There's no chance they wont be on sale afterwards, the only question is how much will it cost. $25 seems about right. The cost of plastic molds on these would be excessive to nto have them on sale afterwards.
For those that are interested, the Multi-post minis are slated for general release. Nothing about them says Kickstarter Exclusive or Special Edition. I can find a response from Jac if you really want me to... but they've been consistent with their wording.
Kickstarter Exclusive Hard Cover Edition of the Rules (both Player and Fatemaster's Books together) Fate Deck Wicked Doll Possibly the first Penny Dreadful's digital copy
Special Edition Hanna's sculpt (she will be a regular release with a different sculpt in the future) Miss Terious Santana Ortega Technically Hanging Tree
Which leaves us with the minis, and the books. which have no special wording, and it is pretty easy to guess that they're for general release.
Thanks for getting the update Caty
Edit: Absolutionis, there is the rifle arms, and there are pieces that can get you close (first torso in the second row has a scarf that could be used for the "uncovered" face, and there are the obvious "trail legs (the first legs). You could always gank the male torso without the chain gun if they'll fit.
But I agree, the female rifleman would be a nice inclusion (especially if you want to use her as a Guild Rifleman in the skirmish game.)
Since Alf seems to be getting lazy - Todays update!
Magia, Genus, and Immuto... OH MY.
Salutations!
It’s Mack, and I’m here with another update. I know that I enjoyed my day off celebrating Christmas with the family, and I hope you all had a nice relaxing holiday. But now it’s back to the books for me!
This time I want to treat the update a bit like a designer’s diary. Last Friday, during the Breach Side Chat, I discussed the current magic and powers system. I outlined the current system (at the time) and received some very helpful feedback. This is the sort of thing I hope to do once the preview forums go live, and all the Kickstarter backers are granted access. It’s amazing how a rule set which functions perfectly well can benefit from company outsider perspective.
So, how is our magic system looking currently? How did it change in just a few days? Well, for those of you who loved the system I proposed Friday, don’t worry. It’s still more or less there, it’s just being refined. Every character, whether they are a spell caster or not, can spend Pursuit Points (somewhat like Experience points from other games) to build magical powers tailor made to their character. Obviously, this requires some oversight by the Fatemaster, as it is intended to allow characters to customize their abilities to fit the persona, not simply give everyone the ability to throw around fireballs.
The first step is to choose one of the Magia. A Magia is the core of a spell. Currently, I have about twenty Magia sorted out. There are going to be more (lots more), it’s all dependent on how many pages I can devote to the armory and magic chapters. A Magia consists of a base Casting Cost (CC) as well as effects, and a range. Originally range was its own part of the spell formula. After chatting with fans about the system, it became clear that a default range would be far simpler, and I can allow players to change it in the Immuto (I’ll talk about that in a moment).
Requirements: Spells based on this Magia must include one Elemental Immuto.
Effect: The target is engulfed in elemental substance and suffers 1/2/3 Damage.
It’s a simple core. The character lights someone on fire. Next, the player would choose a Genus. This is what kind of targets the spell can target. There are lots of options (currently ten, and expanding). Let’s say the character wants to light enemies on fire. So for Genus, the player chooses the following:
Autonomous (+3 CC)
This spell can target any animate target capable of moving of its own free will, such as an animal, undead, or living target. Targets that are animated through magical (or other) means are also considered autonomous (such as an animated statue controlled by another spellcaster).
This makes the Elemental Trauma spell able to target anything that would reasonably be attacking the castser. It can’t shoot bullets or a falling piano out of the air, but it’s a good all-around attack spell. It now has a CC of 10.
Lastly, the spell needs some Immuto. These are ways in which the spell is tailored even further to the character. The Magia has a requirement that the final spell includes at least one Elemental Immuto, and as we are making a fireball, Flame is chosen.
Flame (+1 or +3 CC) [Elemental]
Any elemental effects in the spell become fire based. If the spell does not deal direct damage the CC adjustment is +1, if the spell does deal damage (it has a damage value) then the CC adjustment is +3.
Flammable targets (like most people) that are damaged by a flaming attack are automatically lit on fire, and may take additional damage (see Immolation).
Additionally, 1/2/3 damage really isn’t that much. So the player might also wish to adjust the damage of the spell by taking the Alter Damage Immuto.
Alter Damage (Varies)
Damage dealt directly by the spell (but not secondary damage such as Asphyxiation or Immolation) is increased by +1/+1/+1 per +2 CC added to the spell. For instance, a spell that accepts a +4 CC would increase all direct damage by +2.
Additionally, a single damage severity may be raised by +1 per +1 CC added to the spell. No individual level may ever be equal to, or greater than, the level above it. For instance, a spell cannot have a weak damage value equal to or greater than the moderate or severe damage value.
The player chooses to bump the spell up to 3/4/5, making it a pretty hefty spell. This increases the CC by +4, to a total CC of 17. That’s quite a lot, so the player might consider taking a few other Immuto that lower the CC. He might take Distinctive (which makes it clear who cast the spell) or Draining (which makes the spell cause a Weak Critical Effect to the caster).
There you have it, however, a sample spell. This could be made by any character (who it makes sense for). However, there is another way to cast a spell. Tomes provide spellcasters with serious flexibility. A Tome has a collection of Magia, Genus, and Immuto that may all be combined with each other for a spellcaster to use. One example might be…
"Love Notes" from Saemus
This collection of rantings, diagrams, and terrible poetry contains insights into the twisted Necromantic practices of a powerful Ressurectionist. While only containing a fraction of his knowledge, it is more than enough to warrant execution for the crime of possession of illicit magics.
Magus: Minor Summoning, Combat Summoning, Healing, Interrogate
Genus: Undead
Immuto: Permanent, Alter Damage
With this tome, a spell caster can cast any of the four listed Magia, but they can only target Undead. However, he has the option to alter the damage (or in this case healing) or make the effect permanent (which requires a soulstone). Characters that begin play with certain pursuits (such as Dabbler) begin play with a single Tome, giving them magical flexibility right from the start.
And there you have it, the current magic system, in brief(ish) form. None of this is final, and there is still a bit of writing to be done, but things are clipping along nicely now, and I can't wait to be able to chat with everyone on the preview forums.
Now I just have to figure out what I’m going to talk about tomorrow!
It's a long one but I found it pretty interesting.
Also I found it to be the most interesting update by far... I'm really hoping they let Mack keep up with the updates after Jac gets back.
You heared it here first folks, Alf says "Down with Jac!"
Alf, you gotta get your priorities straight... Whats more important, Gaming or Shoveling Snow?
To me? gaming, to my paren... er roommates lol it's that the driveway is clear for them... idk why, they're both retired, where the hell do they have to go?
Also It's not down with Jac. She's quick on the email replies, she's helpful with henchman duties, etc... but when Mack gets going, the updates are a lot better
Also I found it to be the most interesting update by far... I'm really hoping they let Mack keep up with the updates after Jac gets back.
You heared it here first folks, Alf says "Down with Jac!"
Alf, you gotta get your priorities straight... Whats more important, Gaming or Shoveling Snow?
To me? gaming, to my paren... er roommates lol it's that the driveway is clear for them... idk why, they're both retired, where the hell do they have to go?
Also It's not down with Jac. She's quick on the email replies, she's helpful with henchman duties, etc... but when Mack gets going, the updates are a lot better
Jac is the queen of telling you something without actually telling you something... Mack does a much better job of provaying excitment throguh updates.
Anyone getting a doll who doesn't want it should contact me to lighten your load. Unfortunately, it's the only thing I want from this KS. I have a daughter who will love it.
Short update today in the wake of yesterdays bit of long winded blather from me. We've got a fun upgrade to the female sprue, and I thought you guys might like to see it!
I'm working hard on the magic section today. As everyone is still off for the holiday there won't be another Breach Side Chat until next week, but I'll try to schedule one pretty early. For those of you wondering, the latest episode is available on ustream, and will be on Youtube as soon as everyone gets back to the office on Monday!
I'll admit to not being the most up to date on the Malifaux universe, but I find that chainsaw... well it kinda makes me go
It's not that there is anything wrong with it per se, it's just... a big 'ol chainsaw. It looks out of place, like it belongs in a zombie survival game. I get that they are trying to spruce up the female options (which I found curiously underwhelming), but this just seems off.
Am I mistaken, is there some big faction of chainsaw users in game that I just don't know about?
Buzzsaw wrote: I'll admit to not being the most up to date on the Malifaux universe, but I find that chainsaw... well it kinda makes me go
It's not that there is anything wrong with it per se, it's just... a big 'ol chainsaw. It looks out of place, like it belongs in a zombie survival game. I get that they are trying to spruce up the female options (which I found curiously underwhelming), but this just seems off.
Am I mistaken, is there some big faction of chainsaw users in game that I just don't know about?
I get a Ressers feel from it... Sort of a mix between Evil Dead, the Medic from TF2, and general steampunk...
Buzzsaw wrote: I'll admit to not being the most up to date on the Malifaux universe, but I find that chainsaw... well it kinda makes me go
It's not that there is anything wrong with it per se, it's just... a big 'ol chainsaw. It looks out of place, like it belongs in a zombie survival game. I get that they are trying to spruce up the female options (which I found curiously underwhelming), but this just seems off.
Am I mistaken, is there some big faction of chainsaw users in game that I just don't know about?
I get a Ressers feel from it... Sort of a mix between Evil Dead, the Medic from TF2, and general steampunk...
See, I think that's what get me, it's doesn't really seem steampunk, at least not to me. It looks like just a regular, gasoline operated chainsaw.
The Evil Dead and TF2, that comes through loud and clear. Very survival horror/outlandish.
The thing that vexes me is you have this great image;
And the mini kit made for the game... can't really make any of those.
Forar wrote: Maybe it's a hidden teaser and this year's "Miss ____" will be a female Rifleman?*
*No, it probably won't be, as they already had a Guild figure this year with Miss T, obviously. But it'd be nice. I'd definitely want one.
Oh, they're also Rare 3, and come in a three pack. That might stand in the way as well.
Miss Fired, Guild Riflewoman
And Cincy, I would be okay with any Miss that comes out, but I'm pulling for a Neverborn (since they're ones I play).
Miss Guided might work?
No.2 is by far the best part of that piece of artwork, indeed. I think it'd be hard to make it so that parts for that 'look' feel interchangeable with other parts - it's a rather distinctive look, quite different from what we've seen for the sprue contents.
Alpharius wrote: To be fair, they may be wary of the 'too much success' syndrome?
Maybe they've achieved what they've wanted?
I think they've hinted at/said that at some point.
Yeah, you're right, and that's one of the most irritating things about this KS. Effin thing is going to be lucky to hit 200k. Think they'll have the balls to leave the creature compendium out?
Also, looking at their "stretch goals" they must have really thought this thing was going to hit $250k. As it stands, no digital copy. No advanced pursuits. No skirmish model stats.
Sort of shocking how poorly this thing has been run.
I was mildly somewhat interested in this at the start, but there just hasn't been 'enough' (be it 'stuff', interest from the company, etc.) to get me to go from "casual fan contemplating a purchase" to "willing to spend $125+".
Again, maybe they were just after the hardcore Wyrdos and that's it?
Alpharius wrote: To be fair, they may be wary of the 'too much success' syndrome?
Maybe they've achieved what they've wanted?
I think they've hinted at/said that at some point?
The trends from the last 7 days is still worrisome though.
The curious thing is... they really haven't achieved what the claim they needed to;
As of right now, they are only funding the 2 core books, and, frankly, they are pretty sad offerings. From the pledge levels, it's been implied that the estimated retail price will be $35-40 for the core books, which will be (according to their chart) 200 page paperbacks missing some fairly fundamental things. "Advanced pursuits", which strikes me as the equivalent of D&D Paragon Paths, seem like they would be very sorely missed. No "creature catalogue", no stats for the existing models... the books as they claim they can produce them are looking mighty thin indeed. Which is not to say I actually expect that list to accurately reflect the books at retail, just what they claim they will look like.
What's fascinating about how this all has proceeded is the way for every addition, Wyrd has done something to take the shine off it psychologically.
People want stretch goals? Stretch goals go up and they have things like "a pad of paper" and "Digital Copies (at $250,000!)".
They tease adding the Santana model for days, then when they add it... it's a) limited to the highest pledge level, and b) contingent on increasing their existing number of pledges at that level by almost 50%. As of right now, no-one is getting the Santana model. (N.B., according to comments in the campaign, 5 days ago there were 355 backers at the $225 level. Today there are 361, 6 additional backers over the better part of a week.)
The things that are definite winners (like the concept art for the model kits) came out of nowhere and were late, weeks too late. For the best part of the campaign they let people think that the pledge levels actually contained less they they did (not that even now they contain much...).
Now, of course, they are aggressively putting out the designer to give insight into the game. Which is cool, very interesting, but it doesn't really add a lot of "pizazz" as it were. It's not to say it's not good... it just doesn't really fix any of the problems the campaign suffers from. Anyone looking at this is going to make a decision based on 2 things: first, what they know about Wyrd, and second, how good the deal is.
As people mentioned earlier in the thread, Wyrd pretty much already has a good reputation and people trust them to deliver a quality product. So putting Mack Martin out to talk it up doesn't really add anything from the consumer psychology point of view. So Martin expounding on how things work may be changing some minds on the margins, but for the most part, he's just describing things that people reasonably expect are going to be present.
That is to say: I know there is going to be a magic system. Because it's an RPG in a magic universe. Does it really matter all that much exactly how that magic system works when you're wondering if you should buy a year ahead of time?
On the other hand, what has been the complaint since day one? That the deal, for lack of a better word, simply isn't very good: there isn't value for money. A couple of days ago people in the comments were talking about how a player's guide only was missed, and it's almost amazing: there really are no options for people that only want to play.
That's not even to mention just how aggressively hostile this campaign is towards new backers: realistically speaking, anyone that pledges now is getting ripped off. Seriously, considering how low the overall value is, the Miss T mini is a huge component of pledge value. Simply adding her back for the rest of the campaign (and not at the $225 level only!) would be a huge boost. Why not?
There is just something very odd about how all of this has been gone about. The only thing that really makes any sense is they they feel that there are enough hardcore Wyrd fans that they simply don't have to try to convert fence-sitters and those that regard Wyrd with a more casual attitude.
What makes all this so odd is that most people don't report that Wyrd is a bad company on the corporate level. They normally have a lot of outreach to the community and have a dedicated group of volunteers to promote their games. Why waste this opportunity to grow their brand? It just is all so odd.
I was mildly somewhat interested in this at the start, but there just hasn't been 'enough' (be it 'stuff', interest from the company, etc.) to get me to go from "casual fan contemplating a purchase" to "willing to spend $125+".
Again, maybe they were just after the hardcore Wyrdos and that's it?
I guess. Apparently the close to a grand we have invested in the game doesn't make me hardcore enough to blindly drink the kool-aid like some of the others. Ill probably be another lost backer unless something drastic changes in the next few days.
I've already made the decision to drop my backing for the $60 pledge. I just haven't done it yet. The money is going to Kingdom Death. I only kept it on because I think I wanted the Miss Terious figure. I don't know how many people are in the same boat as me.
If the books end up being good, I'll pick it up for MSRP from my LGS.
I love Malifaux to the point of being a borderline fanboy, but this campaign has convinced me I'm simply just a fan.
People that want freebies from Kickstarter may be called "entitled". Point is, we, the backers, are still taking a risk with our money. Most people will be able to pick up these source books for around $60 after all the reviews are out both professionally and by word-of-mouth. We, the backers, are taking a leap of faith based on the hope of a quality product relevant to my interests. I have faith that Wyrd will make a quality product, but they have yet to convince me or many other people whether this quality will be worth the price of admission and whether this quality will be relevant to our interests.
I play a decent amount of Roleplaying Games, and just as other games, the genres differ quite a lot. Personally, I enjoy tactical-map RPGs like D&D more than the storytelling games like what White Wolf (Vampire: The Masuerade et al.) makes. I honestly still have no idea how this Through the Breach fits in. I understand the setting quite well, but the other mechanics are such an ephemeral mess right now that I'm not sure if I'll like it.
The freebies that everyone has been clamoring for are to satisfy or sway those fence-sitters that aren't sure if they're getting what they want. Some people aren't sure if they want to pledge, but the freebies convince them to pledge. Some people are already pledged, but aren't sure if they want to continue. The freebies and stretch goals are there to grab these people.
The Miss Terious offer was arguably one of the things that may have harmed this campaign. Tons of people hopped on during the days when this figure was available. Some of these were rabid Malifaux fans that wanted the figure. Many, such as myself, just wanted to sit on our pledges knowing it's a nearly risk-free way of getting a rare figure if this campaign ended up having satisfactory value.
To me, it has not.
Unless Wyrd does something, I'm afraid that there are going to be many more pledge drops. It's unlikely that it'll crash terribly, but it's just as unlikely that it'll achieve the 200k+ pledge content.
I'm still on the fence myself as to whether or not I should stay in this campaign. I have jumped in early because, yanno, pledge early, reap the most rewards and all that jazz. Personally, I'm getting the vibe that the organizers are content with what they got right now and do not wish to overstretch.
As mentioned above, the written content on offer is rather lacklustre for a roleplaying game, especially the fluff, which is locked away at a level that we will not see happening. Which is a fething shame, as I was in it for the fluff. Also, 200 pages per book? Maybe I'm spoiled by the line of RPG books done by FFG, but that isn't a lot. Sure, I'm also in it for the minis, but when those rules will not see the light of day.. Why should I even bother?
First off, I have to say I'm a secret backer level and have yet to truly drink the kool-aid, and in fact have been one of the loudest to point out their many issues. I pledged that much because I like the $225 level and I also thought it would be really awesome to get my character's picture done (I love their artist). Do I feel ripped off I'm not going to get all the sweet extras at the higher stretches? Sorta...but only because they made them out of reach and inane. I feel much more ripped off at their action plan for the books. They already had all those charts on how the books would lay out months ago. Why did they wait till it was 1/2 way over to post them?? Or the sketches of the multipose minis that are a CORE ITEM??
@Buzzsaw & BrookM - You two are correct. I stated weeks ago after learning the hard truth when Nathan made his ridiculous PR post that we aren't backers, we aren't investors...we are simply customers. They are going to make this game with or without our money, so there is absolutely no incentive for them to give out anything extra. In short, they stated they don't need us.
The Santana Goal is literally just an insult to us, since they waited till there was what, 14 days left to put it out there? They have to know there aren't 150 more backers out in the aether willing to drop $225 on such a high pledge level for such random rewards (not everyone really wants a sack doll). Its also a few days post-Xmas, so anyone who really wanted it has already pledged. There may be a few more who might be waiting for their next paycheck, but I don't see that number climbing past 375. They should have just added her to the $225 tier and been done with it. Instead its a slowed 'mini-stretch goal' designed to boost their high end pledge level. Simply insulting.
I could tell we were not going to even come close to the $250k mark weeks ago when the steep drop-off hit and the complaints first started. A shame, I really wanted PDFs and the tree. At this point I would be shocked if they push past $200K.
I don't even bother to post on the KS comments anymore, since it doesn't really matter. The cultists will just come to the defense anyway. Someone just made a comment that they think its been "pretty successful" since its 6x the goal amount. Nevermind that the $30k goal was just an arbitrary number Mack pulled out of his head when this began. He explained that in the very first BSC. As a whole, the true test of whether it was successful or not is "did they run out of material to fund?". Not by a long shot. As it is, the KS hasn't really moved in weeks, and though the RPG may be a green light (which it was regardless), the KS should be considered a failure.
Sad...so sad. Despite the best efforts of those who wanted to see this do so well, Wyrd has gone out of their way to shoot themselves in the face time and time again. Oh well, back to putting Dreadball mini's together.
I was very happy that they are creating a malifaux rpg (the setting is just awsome). But when I saw the pledges I had something like ok let's start at 60. Cause well why more? Most arguments have already been raised and I can't fathom to why no one has intervened at some point (from malifaux themselves). I actually think there won't be a end sprint but an end dive. due to people realizing they're are not getting a tree or whatever at the end. One of the things that makes the 125$ deal overal "worthwhile". I never understood the blindness of certain fanboys. I am not negative or anything however. I am realistc enough to see when a company is really trying and pushing hard, or just well using all the good faith or lack of it and they have to push things through. (maybe it be cost increases, bad quality models or what not) Hence the fall in 40k and Fantasy. No matter how hardcore you are at some point you just have to notice.
And up untill now Malifaux for me did everything according to sound plan and good judgement. But this RPG seems so bad in terms of. We have an idea!!!! We don't know how it will look feel or be rulewise. But we want your money anyway to fund it (wich they can easily fund themselves regardles of an KS or not)
You get a spell list as information well that was amazing (sarcasm). Cause you have nothing to hold up against in terms of what the system might actually be.
A lost chance to incorperate rpg fans into the malifaux miniature game and vice versa
Cause if it does'nt reach 250k I won't be backing it by far.
Well up untill the end I will keep the pledge alive and I know what I will do if it does'nt reach the 250k target and no I don't think it will ever reach the 250k either.
I was mildly somewhat interested in this at the start, but there just hasn't been 'enough' (be it 'stuff', interest from the company, etc.) to get me to go from "casual fan contemplating a purchase" to "willing to spend $125+".
Again, maybe they were just after the hardcore Wyrdos and that's it?
But I don't think that the pledge levels themselves are the problem.
Average pledge per backer on this is barely half of what it is for Kingdom Death, DreadBall, Relic Knights, etc.. .
They just went about it in a psychologically bad way, asking people to buy in at the high price at once (and as fast as possible), instead of "hooking" them with a "easy to just pledge" level that's comfortably in the "impulse buy" zone and then gradually persuading backers to spend more.
With Sedition Wars and Dreadball I felt two things were happening when I pledged.
Firstly, that I was helping to improve the core game for everybody. More money for extra tooling meant better chits, more sculpts, etc. My pledge mattered...it made a difference.
Secondly, I was getting a benefit with some extra figures, etc. with the option to buy a few cool additions.
With this KS I just feel as if my pledge really doesn't matter. They are going to make the game with those features in it - if they don't the game simply wont' work, IMHO. I could be doing other stuff with that money between now and the game's release...and then just buy it at retail.
Mack has already stated what will happen if the page/book goals don't get met. They will simply be added into later books instead of the core books. I just think this will make the rule books feel clunky and incomplete though, with vital info missing until the other books come out.
I was mildly somewhat interested in this at the start, but there just hasn't been 'enough' (be it 'stuff', interest from the company, etc.) to get me to go from "casual fan contemplating a purchase" to "willing to spend $125+".
Again, maybe they were just after the hardcore Wyrdos and that's it?
But I don't think that the pledge levels themselves are the problem.
Average pledge per backer on this is barely half of what it is for Kingdom Death, DreadBall, Relic Knights, etc.. .
They just went about it in a psychologically bad way, asking people to buy in at the high price at once (and as fast as possible), instead of "hooking" them with a "easy to just pledge" level that's comfortably in the "impulse buy" zone and then gradually persuading backers to spend more.
If you can convince me that your base $60 pledge level is worth the money, I'll gladly pay you more for extra add-ons and not feel guilty about it.
Wyrd has not convinced me that the base-level purchase was worth it, and to be honest, I'm not entirely sure about much of the details of this RPG even through all those webcasts. The fact that they'll produce the game regardless of kickstarter and that they're holding planned content for future release leaves a sour taste.
Kingdom Death got their foot-in-my-door with the Black Friday rates, and kept it with the core game stretch rewards. I gladly gave them more money for the expansions after being promised a discount from MSRP.
Wyrd got their foot-in-my-door with the Miss Terious early reward, but failed to keep it there.
It's been an interesting roller coaster from the start, but as noted before, I too am baffled at some of their choices. They have 2 tiers that aren't actually advertised (the $5 forum access and $500 "secret tier"). The latter I don't care about, but I think having the former would at least attract some interest, and they can use every bit of help at this point.
I joined at the $82 tier for Miss T early on, moved up to $158 when they released the stretch goals that showed me I could get both the models and the deck, and have gone up to $269 for the time being in the hopes of getting a Santana (I am aware it's looking unlikely, but *someone* has to pledge that tier for there to even be a chance of it happening).
At this point I'm leaning towards going back down to the $158 level. Even if I sell the extra set of books to my buddy for $60, that's still $50 on a second deck (guess I could sell that too) and the stuffed doll that I'm not all that attached to in the first place. I like rare swag as much as the next gamer, but having one out of 350'ish of these things doesn't really blow my hair back either.
I remain somewhat optimistic in that there is still a week and a half to turn things around, but I'm not counting on it happening.
The funny thing is, the changes that could make this explode are so simple and obvious (at least to me);
For the $125 Dining room pledge
-Add a second sprue so there is no more "random gender" non-sense,
-Add Miss T,
-Add Santana.
There, the Dining Room ($125) pledge level would then be;
-2 Male and 2 Female Multi-Pose mini kits,
-Hanna, Chief Freikorps Archivist,
-Miss T, and
-Santana.
-Player's Guide,
-FM Guide
I think it's not entirely unfair to say I have been... critical, of this campaign. But I would be very sorely tempted to buy in at $125 for that loadout. But even then, let's be completely fair here, that (which is waaaaaaay better then what they are likely to offer), is still not as good a value as a lot of other campaigns.
Given their use of limited edition figures, I get the feeling it's unlikely they'd 'devalue' them (secondary market or simply in becoming vastly more common) by putting 1000-1500+ into the market by adding them to the 125 tiers.
Even adding Miss T could be an issue, when accounting for the early backers, that'd be another 2000+, and while popping out more plastic figures once the expensive parts are attended to is comparatively cheap, it's possible they don't have quite so many on hand, and want to avoid doing another run if possible, such as the obvious desire to get rid of existing Hanging Tree stock. Hell, I'll bet they just want to reclaim shelf space from them at this point.
Personally, I'm with you on adding a second sprue of the MPM to the middle and top tier, and think Santana should be added to the top tier. Maybe include a random MPM to the $60 tier as well? Or the deck? Something to beef it up a little without going overboard.
Don't get me wrong; if they did that to the middle tier (and above, obviously) I'd be happy as a clam, but looking over how they've run the KS so far, I think it's more likely that I'll end up on a date with *insert incredibly attractive celebrity here* than that'll happen.
You are correct, Buzzsaw. I wonder how this will shake out at the end when people reasses the value of their pledges. I'm pretty sure I'll stay in at the $125 level just because it will cost me more to get the figures separately on eBay. I don't know how many others will.
Buzzsaw, I mostly agree with your point about adding miss terious (I think that the early backer thing was a mistake) and adding the other gender sprue (they already made it; little cost to them for a lot of gain to the backer), but agree with forar that, while I'd like them to do the santana thing, I think that their long term image would benefit from a higher exclusivity, there, though think that they should have just added it to the 225 level flat out (will get to that in a minute).
Guessing at MSRPs
-2 Male and 2 Female Multi-Pose mini kits (at least $15 each, likely $20 each, could easily be more... $80 total)
-Hanna, Chief Freikorps Archivist (looking at past limited edition minis, I'd expect no less than $30 for a medium or large base)
-Miss T ($25ish)
-Player's Guide + FM Guide ($30 minimum)
-plastic deck (11.5
...meaning you're getting around $175 worth of stuff for $125 (having gotten in early, still a value of $155ish, w/o whatever the adventure would cost). It's unfortunately considerably less worth it without the miss terious early bonus, and comes in around MSRP
Having thought about this, I've been leaning towards upgrading my $60 pledge to $125, as it's roughly doubling what I get, and I know myself, so realize that I'd want those items when they came out, anyways. I feel like this is really the best spot for the kickstarter.
What I wish they could do was add only two upgrades: 1: softcover to hardcover; 2: additional sprues of characters. I think that would add a big chunk of interested buyers for people interested in some stuff but not all, as the other pledge levels cover the other options well
Unfortunately, what I think is the honest truth is that, while they said they wanted a modest kickstarter, they were expecting theirs to explode, making the higher levels much more desirable over time, and, since they were (for some reason I still don't wholly comprehend) opposed to upgrades, they needed a high starting point, which scared off a number of backers.
If you look at their stretch goals, you'll notice a lot of blank space there
Spoiler:
and I think that it wasn't a formatting error, but the expectation that they'd see things expanding consistently. There is around enough space for 12 more completed stretch goals where, even if a few were two lines, meant they were probably prepared for another $500k of activity.
1/4 of the time is still enough to tell everyone "Look, things didn't go the way we were expecting them, here's how we're changing things for the end." It wouldn't likely make their campaign run wild, but might be the push they need to revitalize it...
Forar wrote: Given their use of limited edition figures, I get the feeling it's unlikely they'd 'devalue' them (secondary market or simply in becoming vastly more common) by putting 1000-1500+ into the market by adding them to the 125 tiers.
I don't get this attitude. Do they seriously think that it's more important for Wyrd miniatures to be known as the OCD neckbeard-baiting company rather than the company with a successful, goodwill producing Kickstarter? If there was ever a company who's bread and butter was extremely limited editions, I would expect that company to be Kingdom Death. Let's take a look at their Kickstarter and see how much they are sabotaging their campaign in order to maintain their exclusivity...
Uh oh, Wyrd. Looks like you fell for the trap.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Buzzsaw, I mostly agree with your point about adding miss terious (I think that the early backer thing was a mistake) and adding the other gender sprue (they already made it; little cost to them for a lot of gain to the backer), but agree with forar that, while I'd like them to do the santana thing, I think that their long term image would benefit from a higher exclusivity, there, though think that they should have just added it to the 225 level flat out (will get to that in a minute).
Guessing at MSRPs
-2 Male and 2 Female Multi-Pose mini kits (at least $15 each, likely $20 each, could easily be more... $80 total)
-Hanna, Chief Freikorps Archivist (looking at past limited edition minis, I'd expect no less than $30 for a medium or large base)
-Miss T ($25ish)
-Player's Guide + FM Guide ($30 minimum)
-plastic deck (11.5
...meaning you're getting around $175 worth of stuff for $125 (having gotten in early, still a value of $155ish, w/o whatever the adventure would cost). It's unfortunately considerably less worth it without the miss terious early bonus, and comes in around MSRP
You've accidentally included 4 MPM kits (they have generously only included 3, with the gender random...), which unfortunately drops the value to $155, which for a pledge today further drops to $130. For a $125 pledge. Almost a year ahead of time.
Now, of course, how to value the kits is open to debate, although if we are to compare to other campaigns, there seems to be little to really recommend Wyrd here. KD offers many of their superlative (based on early shots) kits at 20 models for $50 add-on. DFG offered 20 man units for $39 (with a bewildering amount of bits).
This gets to the core of the problem: at this point, a month into the campaign, we're here arguing about whether the pledges are even a discount. That's no good: the deals should be tempting, not puzzling, at this point.
Consider, for example, Kingdom Death's Dragon King Expansion. Assuming you buy nothing else (and so have to go $11 for the "Options Only" pledge), what do you get for $30 ($41)?
-Plastic Dragon King 8' tall,
-Dragon King Human Form (double size mini?),
-Kit to make 2 male, 2 female Dragon Armor Survivors,
-100+ cards,
-Handbook,
-Twilight Knight.
Now, my point is not to boost KD but to point out, this is a crazy good deal (and was so even before the human form was added). Also, look how the original announcement was made: "50% off MSRP of $60", no questions about what you are getting (which transfers through to subsequent add-ons) compared to retail price. And even if you don't care about the game, the value in models is there: a giant monster and 4 (5) 35mm scale humans for $30 ($41) is rather aggressive pricing. Of course, it ultimately comes down to personal opinion on the aesthetic of the models in question, if you don't like KD, it doesn't matter how good the deal is.
Contrasting that to what Wyrd is doing, is there any indication they even want people to think they are getting a good deal? They seem almost aggressive about how they want to go "a different way", and "not drown people in tee-shirts...".
spiralingcadaver wrote: If you look at their stretch goals, you'll notice a lot of blank space there
Spoiler:
and I think that it wasn't a formatting error, but the expectation that they'd see things expanding consistently. There is around enough space for 12 more completed stretch goals where, even if a few were two lines, meant they were probably prepared for another $500k of activity.
1/4 of the time is still enough to tell everyone "Look, things didn't go the way we were expecting them, here's how we're changing things for the end." It wouldn't likely make their campaign run wild, but might be the push they need to revitalize it...
While there is plenty of time for, well, basically anything to happen, there just doesn't seem to be any interest on the part of Wyrd to acknowledge concerns. Even when their own outline shows that the books are not even close to retail level, everything just seems to roll along...
Buzzsaw, I was going with your hypothetical model (with four), missing the santana, as explained, though I guess not clearly enough.
The value of the kits was mostly compared to Wyrd's more recent 3-packs in plastic, which these will definitely be more customizable than.
Regarding Kingdom Death, I agree completely that it's a better deal, and I do feel like you nailed it with your comment that Wyrd is not making it even sound like a good deal.
I'm confused by your last sentence, though... not sure what you're saying?
If your at the $225 level and don't want the doll then Magical is willing to buy it....
@Starweaver - Wyrd has a European distrobuter so it's not inconcevable they would use them for fuffilment.
@Souleater - I thought high shipping costs was something you guys were familiar with, it seems inline with other Kickstarters to me.
I'm not really sure how you could put a value on the multi part plastic models without seeing what their actually going to retail for. There are alot of parts in those box sets and their use even as bits for their other plastic minatures may make them a highly valued commodeity.
Alot of people bring up Kingdom Death to use as an example lately and while KD might be a fantastic project there are some pretty major differences between it and other large Game projects that kickstarter has produced. Namely, KD as a company has never delivered at a scale such as this. Simply put the number of backers that project has is starting to approach the number of orders he has shipped over the life of the company. I'm starting to have serious doubt about his ability to deliver.... With Through the Breach you've got two pretty significant things going for it. First it's Wyrd, their not going to ruin their name by not fuffling the rewards or fuffiling them with substandard stuff. Second, since this game was going to be made anyway that further reduces the chance that you won't actually get your reward. For me atleast this adds quite a bit of value.
I won't argue that this is the best run project, I think there are alot of things they should have done differently. At the same time I don't think its as serious of a problem as this thread is making it sound.
With Through the Breach you've got two pretty significant things going for it. First it's Wyrd, their not going to ruin their name by not fuffling the rewards or fuffiling them with substandard stuff. Second, since this game was going to be made anyway that further reduces the chance that you won't actually get your reward. For me atleast this adds quite a bit of value.
Are you sure these things are going for it? As it seems to me, theIr Shyte attitude towards their customer has from this KS doesn't seem to be making their names any better....
The fact that it was "going to be made anyway" only serves to undermine the importance of the KS. As it stands, they don't even have the funding they "need" to put out a "complete" book!
Personally I'm a fan of the idea of just adding Santana to the 225 level. The way I see it, if they're willing to give out 500+ of them, obviously they are capable of giving out 350-400 of them. It seems sort of backwards right now; they want to entice people to that level with a target, but it's high/expensive enough that it looks like we'll fall short, and since most people are only backing once, there's only so much that can be done to change that (it's easier for people to add some cash to a backing than to get a whole new person to commit 225-270+). If they just added it outright, I suspect they could at least get within spitting distance of 500, if not surpass it anyway, with a lot less angst from the community over it.
It puts a lot of people in this hesitant state where even if they go to 225, they may be watching the campaign like a hawk in the last day, ready to drop to a lower tier (or back out entirely) if it seems we're not going to cross that threshold, which has a risk of snowballing; if enough people back out that Santana is in jeopardy, it only incentivizes more people leaving in turn.
Cautiously optimistic as I remain, I agree that there's a significant risk of further fall back. I haven't followed a lot of Kickstarters, but I'm curious if there's been one that was successful but saw significant regression from their peak funding point? Perhaps to the level of even regressing on stretch goals? Hopefully it isn't the case here, but with a week and a half left I do hope Wyrd pulls out the stops and does something to push the drive over the plateau it has been lingering at for weeks.
I've not seen major drop outs right at the end of a KS before (possibly because the new boost backers more than replace them)
but some have had significant numbers of very early backers (who jumped in to grab better value early pledges) backing out in the middle when the percived value eas not achived quickly
I saw it during the Relic Knights campaign, but those backers were replaced..... 'dicounted' slots reappearing just helped pull new folk in.
Here as 'replacement' backers don't get any discounted slots (Wyrd didn't do them), the also miss out the 'early backer' figure and PDF (& something else ? I've not kept on top of whether that program continued) it's a lot harder for them to jump in.
As has been said by others the really committed wyrd fans are in already, those that really wanted a Malifaux RPG are in, those that just want the 'limited' minis are in already
A significant part of late 'boost' backers jump into things for extra value which is why they wait to jump in on the last day which is not a strong position for this KS to be in,
the real question is how many of the existing backers hoped for extra value when the pledged at the start, and haven't been following the campaign (seems crazy to me but lost of folk back then only look in again when the 48hr email goes out). When they see where the prohect is will it be enough to hold them ?
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: the real question is how many of the existing backers hoped for extra value when the pledged at the start, and haven't been following the campaign (seems crazy to me but lost of folk back then only look in again when the 48hr email goes out). When they see where the project is will it be enough to hold them ?
I'm always looking for that extra value. Currently it sits at, "expected value for a 125 USD since they added the random gendered sprue and extra fate deck. I was sitting at 225 because that was the "best" way to get what I wanted out of the project. I'm certain there will be people that are going to be upset they won't get Miss Terious or a penny dreadful digital copy, but do those things really take what the Dining Room gamer has and make that not worth the 125?
Note: Can my British friends tell me if 166.12 GBP is a lot of money, or is that about average? Like is that something that you could spend without really thinking too much about it? because if it's the latter, I'm not quite sure what they're complaining about. I'd love to get the 225 level at 166 (that's at the 269 that is added in for shipping).
The early pledge rewards were just Miss T and the pdf, and let's not kid ourselves about the latter being hard to come by.
Not that I'm advocating piracy, just pointing out the reality of our time. Surely someone in the dakka community will have it available to pass along if a group is looking for a copy.
I suspect that even the large/super successful KS's have probably had significant drop offs, they're likely just hidden by the massive swell of new people making any who have to leave a drop in the bucket. Here, it's such a lengthy campaign (a month and a half may have been ill advised, and/or the timing around the holidays) and the post-initial rush has been so lukewarm that the losses are more noticable and aren't being outpaced very quickly.
Hell, they did over 140k in 3 days at the start, and have only netted a gain of 1k in the last week.
And even as one who probably could be counted among the "die hards" who joined early and has admittedly risen through the tiers (even if based at least somewhat on optimism), I'll admit to bristling a little with the whole "our way or the highway" and "it's being made anyway, whatever" attitudes that have come across (paraphrased, obviously).
I'm not expecting to be rolling in rewards, but even in terms of giving us info and feedback we did receive, this whole thing has come across less than ideally.
The UK government expects somebody to be able to live for a week on £65 paying all bills inclusing electric, heating etc (except housing) based on what they give in unemployment
So £166 should pay for everything for 2 1/2 weeks or so
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: The UK government expects somebody to be able to live for a week on £65 paying all bills inclusing electric, heating etc (except housing) based on what they give in unemployment
So £166 should pay for everything for 2 1/2 weeks or so
Okay, that answers a good portion of the question, but I would have serious issue with someone spending their unemployment on books and plastic sculpted into the shape of a person. Our hobby revolves around disposable income (for the most part). So your average UK back of this is probably somewhere like me. Ya can afford it, but ya gotta put forth some money into savings for it?
I realize that the shipping is expensive. I probably wouldn't back it if I had to pay shipping like that (which has kept me out of several good overseas kickstarters due to similar shipping prices). I was just curious if it was that big of a hit to the wallet of an average UK person. I really feel sorry for America's Hat... Our Syrup blooded kindred to the north are paying the 269 and it's actually close to that price.
Forar, you should have teamed up with some American Henchman, sent them your slightly more valuable coin plus like 6 bucks for shipping. I would have gladly done that for some of our Canadian friends
kaiohx wrote: Nevermind that the $30k goal was just an arbitrary number Mack pulled out of his head when this began. .
No kidding. At 30k apparently we'd have gotten a few photo copied pages stapled together with stick figure art. The page count in these 2 books is looking pretty weak for 60 bucks a year in advance.
Alpharius wrote: It is looking more and more like waiting for 'retail' will be the way to go, if even that.
Heh, more and more I'm thinking Polonius correctly described the course of action...
Polonius wrote: ...
I don't feel like I'm really the target for this KS, and so I won't tell Wyrd how to run it. Just from my view, I'm getting used to getting an amazing return on my investment with kickstarter, especially when deliverty is so distant. I know they say to just wait to buy retail if I don't like the KS, but that misses the point of using a KS to drum up interest: I'm not gonna buy it retail! If anything, I'll grab a used copy a few years after the game implodes for pennies on the dollar, or trade for a copy on the Swap Shop.
One of the things I find saddest about the way Wyrd has gone about this is the way they seem to have pimped out Mr. Martin, having him do the updates as if insight into the design process could take the place of improving the deal. This isn't to say that design insight isn't nice, or to slight Martin, but compare to Numerera: design insight is something that comes along with the kickstarter process, it's not a replacement for value.
Besides, one reason that Martin's updates don't add much from a sales perspective is... they literally don't add anything. Having extensive design discussions regarding the magic system, or the character creation system, or what races will be available is having discussions about things that are presumed to be present in the finished product.
It's almost as if they are having him take up space with discussion so they don't have to have updates totally empty of content.
If they end up deciding to stick by their stretch goal chart, and people pull out of the game and thus they decide not to give everything they were expecting to at the beginning, I don't know if it will even be worth buying once it hits retail.
Don't want to buy an unfinished RPG system, or one that requires an add-on just to be able to play it correctly.
I don't think I have seen too many big companies shoot themselves so thoroughly in the foot on kickstarter like Wyrd has. It's baffling.
Fenriswulf wrote: If they end up deciding to stick by their stretch goal chart, and people pull out of the game and thus they decide not to give everything they were expecting to at the beginning, I don't know if it will even be worth buying once it hits retail.
Don't want to buy an unfinished RPG system, or one that requires an add-on just to be able to play it correctly.
I don't think I have seen too many big companies shoot themselves so thoroughly in the foot on kickstarter like Wyrd has. It's baffling.
Besides the creature compendium, what is not going to be included that will limit your ability to play this game?
I think the question becomes what will happen if the funding amount dips below a level due to pull outs at the end. I'm sure there are people that pledge early for the bonus hanging on by a glimmer in hopes that more value will be added.
Having access to Advanced Pursuits at the outset of the game would be good for long term character planning and letting people have a greater feel for what they want to achieve.
It might not be game breaking, but it sure as hell will make the game seem a hell of a lot less well rounded.
Not to mention having in Expanded Earth History and Secrets of Malifaux tucked in at $250k makes no real sense. Shouldn't those parts be already included in the basic compendiums so people can have a firm grip on the setting of Malifaux? Especially for those who don't play the tabletop game?
The thing of it is I think they backed themselves into a corner. They said from the outset it would have been funded kickstarter or not. But under pressure to release stretch goals they threw this chart out. Now it seems like they won't reach anywhere near where they wanted to go (hence the discussion on all the blank space on the sheet given beforehand) and are kind of stuck. Perhaps all of the stretch goals were actually going to be in the game, but the need to show people what they were investing in kind of forced their hand.
Now if they don't make those levels, does that mean material which might have already been included is now going to be left out? Was it really planned this way?
I don't know. For me it sounds a bit like a complete omni-shambles of a kickstarter. A friend wants in on this, and I said he was welcome to it, and gave him my pledge. I think he is likely to be disappointed, but it's his decision. Otherwise, I am pretty much out at this stage.
Fenriswulf wrote: If they end up deciding to stick by their stretch goal chart, and people pull out of the game and thus they decide not to give everything they were expecting to at the beginning, I don't know if it will even be worth buying once it hits retail.
Don't want to buy an unfinished RPG system, or one that requires an add-on just to be able to play it correctly.
I don't think I have seen too many big companies shoot themselves so thoroughly in the foot on kickstarter like Wyrd has. It's baffling.
Besides the creature compendium, what not going to be included that will limit your ability to play this game?
Assuming that "Advanced Pursuits" are analogous to D&D's Paragon Paths, not having those in the player's book would be very noticeable, since such things are an inherent part of game balance. Not having either the "Creature Catalogue" or "Skirmish Model Stats"... I'm not even sure how you could play a game without those.
Of course, the more you look at the Book plan, the more you have to question what if any relation it has to reality.
At $200k they "Creature Catalogue" is added... but the page number stays the same? Huh? There are a bunch of "2x" items, they really can quantify how many items they can brainstorm, and then how much money it takes to double it? It's also amusing to see "2x Writers" in different places for the two books. Uh, okay...
All of this of course just goes back to the discussion on page 3: for $60, there really doesn't seem to be much of a discount on these books compared to what we reasonable could pay retail. Which also begs the question... even at $250k, do these books seem like good value at retail?
We've assumed a retail of like $35-40. For 228 page softcover books, that seems really quite high. That's on par with most of my gaming hardcovers, and a way, way higher price point then the D&D Essential's line of softcovers (which are both longer and cheaper).
depending on how you plan to play the skirmish model stats may be nessesary (if for example you plan to skirmish up your larger encounters, or actually want to roleplay up your skirmish campaigns)
Advanced pursuits maybe? (depends on whats in the basic book)
Expanded Earth History ? (is this a pull together from the skirmish books? or completly new never before seen stuff. Depending on how they plan to evolve & grow they game it might be important)
cincydooley wrote: I think the question becomes what will happen if the funding amount dips below a level due to pull outs at the end. I'm sure there are people that pledge early for the bonus hanging on by a glimmer in hopes that more value will be added.
That will absolutely be something that has to be taken into consideration should it happen, with 10 and half days to go, I don't see this dropping too far below 175k, and even at that point, all you would be missing is x2 gear and magic. The creature compendium could easily be added seamlessly into the expansion books. Is that a gak move? yes it is, but it's also something that they'll have to deal with. It doesn't make the game unplayable, especially since we won't be losing the Dispositions system, which will allow you to convert your players into the skirimish game. Congrats, now you have a battle system with loads of generic monsters without any sort of conversions needed (beyond the player to skirimish game disposition system). And from there, if you want it shouldn't be hard to reverse engineer from the skirmish game to the RPG. Is this ideal? No, but it's far from unplayable.
Edit: As it has been said in the Breach Side Chats, the Skirmish Model stats are conversions of people like the current masters and henchman made into NPC versions for the RPG game.
Edit: As it has been said in the Breach Side Chats, the Skirmish Model stats are conversions of people like the current masters and henchman made into NPC versions for the RPG game.
Ah thanks for that, makes more sense that these are less essential then
Fenriswulf wrote: If they end up deciding to stick by their stretch goal chart, and people pull out of the game and thus they decide not to give everything they were expecting to at the beginning, I don't know if it will even be worth buying once it hits retail.
Don't want to buy an unfinished RPG system, or one that requires an add-on just to be able to play it correctly.
I don't think I have seen too many big companies shoot themselves so thoroughly in the foot on kickstarter like Wyrd has. It's baffling.
Besides the creature compendium, what not going to be included that will limit your ability to play this game?
Assuming that "Advanced Pursuits" are analogous to D&D's Paragon Paths, not having those in the player's book would be very noticeable, since such things are an inherent part of game balance. Not having either the "Creature Catalogue" or "Skirmish Model Stats"... I'm not even sure how you could play a game without those.
Of course, the more you look at the Book plan, the more you have to question what if any relation it has to reality.
At $200k they "Creature Catalogue" is added... but the page number stays the same? Huh? There are a bunch of "2x" items, they really can quantify how many items they can brainstorm, and then how much money it takes to double it? It's also amusing to see "2x Writers" in different places for the two books. Uh, okay...
All of this of course just goes back to the discussion on page 3: for $60, there really doesn't seem to be much of a discount on these books compared to what we reasonable could pay retail. Which also begs the question... even at $250k, do these books seem like good value at retail?
We've assumed a retail of like $35-40. For 228 page softcover books, that seems really quite high. That's on par with most of my gaming hardcovers, and a way, way higher price point then the D&D Essential's line of softcovers (which are both longer and cheaper).
I'll give you the creature catalog, but the Skirmish Model Stats are only used to tie the Malifaux the Skirmish game and Through the Breach the RPG together, you don't need one to play the other. Advanced Prusuits are more specific and higher level base pursuits. For example you might have a character that uses the base pursuit of sunslinger. Later on that same character could work towards the advanced pursuit of Guild Gunslinger or something along those lines. It's really only nessacary if its included. Sure it might make the character more dynamic but it isn't nessacary to play.
A $35 to $40 price point would put it in line with the Malifaux books which are on average a bit shorter.
True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?
Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?
Fenriswulf wrote: True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?
Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?
Whats the difference between what Wyrd intends to do and what Pathfinder and D&D do... Last I checked my book shelf I have 3 Beasteiry's for Pathfinder and I don't even want to count how many for D&D. The same can be said for Class/Prusuits.
Fenriswulf wrote: True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?
Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?
So you say that it's not unplayable, and then give me an example of a car that clearly cannot run on it's own? A car can't run with all of those things missing or broken. I never said you're going to have to wait on the expansion books to get a "much better rounded" system. I said that's a possibility and that it would be a gak move to do. I don't work for wyrd, I know just as much as as you all do. I'm giving my speculation on what they could do. If you notice It's been several days since I've participated in this thread, because it's honestly not good for my blood pressure to argue with some people on this site. Buzzsaw and Cincy have brought forth good arguments and points, and I agree with you all, this KS is not being the most well run and like I've said, you're only going to back it if you see the value. I still find value in what I would get out of the KS that what I might down the road. Idk what my finances are going to be like in 8 to 10 months, but I have the money to invest now and try to get the pieces that interest me and help make the drive better.
And to be fair, not every major RPG system out there released their main books with their monster manuals in the core rules. Maybe they released them separately, gave you one or two to get you going, but in most cases you had to buy a third book at release or you had to wait until that third book was released. The creature compendium could never come out for all I care. I'm horrible at developing my own RPG adventures. The penny dreadfuls will be a godsend if they include creature stat blocks in the back of the adventure.
The point of this kickstarter just like any kickstarter (regardless of what Wyrd has said) is to invest in a product you'd like to see made. Whether the company is going make the product or not, your pledge has helped make it better.
Feth, the Penny Arcade KS didn't get this much flak.
Fenriswulf wrote: True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?
Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?
Just to amplify Fenris' point: to laud an upcoming product as "not unplayable" seems to be damning with faint praise indeed.
Alfndrate wrote: The point of this kickstarter just like any kickstarter (regardless of what Wyrd has said) is to invest in a product you'd like to see made. Whether the company is going make the product or not, your pledge has helped make it better.
Herein lies perhaps the greatest problem: it's very difficult to believe that Wyrd ever really intended for that Book Plan to reflect reality. As SpiralingCadaver noted, it seems clear that they anticipated a much higher, much faster accumulation of funds. Which is, in fairness, the pattern that many prominent campaigns have followed and indeed is very much the model that C'MoN uses, but they marry the approach with a low, hook-you-in pledge level.
If, as they say, the RPG was always going to be sold, then one can only presume that they had a great deal of information about what was going to be in it (an idea bolstered by the new claims I'm seeing that the books are intended to be available in August for GenCon) and what they would look like.
So why is everything so slapdash? Information that would help people make informed decisions dribbles out like, while they have Martin pimp the bejesus out of stuff that has to be in the books. This is not to belittle what Mr. Martin is doing, but I have serious doubts about the number of people who's primary buying concern is the specific mechanics of the games, rather then the broad strokes.
Fenriswulf wrote: True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?
Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?
Just to amplify Fenris' point: to laud an upcoming product as "not unplayable" seems to be damning with faint praise indeed.
Alfndrate wrote: The point of this kickstarter just like any kickstarter (regardless of what Wyrd has said) is to invest in a product you'd like to see made. Whether the company is going make the product or not, your pledge has helped make it better.
Herein lies perhaps the greatest problem: it's very difficult to believe that Wyrd ever really intended for that Book Plan to reflect reality. As SpiralingCadaver noted, it seems clear that they anticipated a much higher, much faster accumulation of funds. Which is, in fairness, the pattern that many prominent campaigns have followed and indeed is very much the model that C'MoN uses, but they marry the approach with a low, hook-you-in pledge level.
If, as they say, the RPG was always going to be sold, then one can only presume that they had a great deal of information about what was going to be in it (an idea bolstered by the new claims I'm seeing that the books are intended to be available in August for GenCon) and what they would look like.
So why is everything so slapdash? Information that would help people make informed decisions dribbles out like, while they have Martin pimp the bejesus out of stuff that has to be in the books. This is not to belittle what Mr. Martin is doing, but I have serious doubts about the number of people who's primary buying concern is the specific mechanics of the games, rather then the broad strokes.
Exactly!
Hard to believe that a KS from a 'major' company is this poorly planned out and run, and that it is experiencing the stalling dropouts that it is. I didn't think Wyrd would be this... inept at things.
Buzzsaw wrote: Herein lies perhaps the greatest problem: it's very difficult to believe that Wyrd ever really intended for that Book Plan to reflect reality. As SpiralingCadaver noted, it seems clear that they anticipated a much higher, much faster accumulation of funds. Which is, in fairness, the pattern that many prominent campaigns have followed and indeed is very much the model that C'MoN uses, but they marry the approach with a low, hook-you-in pledge level.
You always set your expectations high. the EFT kickstarter had high expectations after making 5k a day for the first two or three days (it was a far smaller KS), and as things slowed in the middle of the campaign we tried things to bring in new backers. We changed some of the stretch goal levels and tried to bring in new blood. We lost a couple of major backers due to weather related reasons, but at the end of the day we tried our best to bring people into the drive. We had thoughts of what would happen all the way up to 500,000 dollars. Did we get near that? no, but it would be better than being caught with our pants down, which I'm not saying didn't happen to Wyrd.
If, as they say, the RPG was always going to be sold, then one can only presume that they had a great deal of information about what was going to be in it (an idea bolstered by the new claims I'm seeing that the books are intended to be available in August for GenCon) and what they would look like.
If you look at the KS it says Sept. 2013 as the release date. Claims of "being in backer's hands" by GenCon are far from new. Especially considering regular shipping for Evil Baby Orphanage had the shipping date of November, and people that went to GenCon could pick their games up at GenCon (granted I was there and totally ignored this email >_< ). And they never said when the Canon Campaign would be placed in the game. It's quite possible that it's going to be in an expansion and change the story as things happen.
So why is everything so slapdash? Information that would help people make informed decisions dribbles out like, while they have Martin pimp the bejesus out of stuff that has to be in the books. This is not to belittle what Mr. Martin is doing, but I have serious doubts about the number of people who's primary buying concern is the specific mechanics of the games, rather then the broad strokes.
I'm not going to lie, they should have had Mack doing this from the beginning and they should have released a lot of the concept art at the beginning. I've never said that this KS is being run perfectly, something that everyone seems to keep ignoring when I post in this thread.
Fenriswulf wrote: True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?
Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?
Whats the difference between what Wyrd intends to do and what Pathfinder and D&D do... Last I checked my book shelf I have 3 Beasteiry's for Pathfinder and I don't even want to count how many for D&D. The same can be said for Class/Prusuits.
You really don't want to be creating that comparison here. The last monster manual runs $23 on Amazon for 224 pages for a hardback. Beastiary 3 runs 26 for 320 pages. So more pages, better binding, cheaper price. Also you aren't paying a year in advance. As the investors in the project, its reasonable to expect better return for a loan a year out than the opportunity to pay retail...
Fenriswulf wrote: True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?
Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?
Whats the difference between what Wyrd intends to do and what Pathfinder and D&D do... Last I checked my book shelf I have 3 Beasteiry's for Pathfinder and I don't even want to count how many for D&D. The same can be said for Class/Prusuits.
You really don't want to be creating that comparison here. The last monster manual runs $23 on Amazon for 224 pages for a hardback. So more pages, better binding, cheaper price. Also you aren't paying a year in advance. As the investors in the project, its reasonable to expect better return for a loan a year out than the opportunity to pay retail...
Legally your not an investor, US law doesn't allow for micro investment. Additionally you'd be hard pressed to get much of a return on an investment given the current intrest rates.
Paizo website currently lists the Beastiary 3 at $40.00 plus shipping, you can't go by wholesalers/discounters when making a comparision.
On the Hardback vs. Softcover argument, for every person you find that prefers a hard cover you'll find a person that prefers a softcover.
Fenriswulf wrote: True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?
Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?
Whats the difference between what Wyrd intends to do and what Pathfinder and D&D do... Last I checked my book shelf I have 3 Beasteiry's for Pathfinder and I don't even want to count how many for D&D. The same can be said for Class/Prusuits.
You really don't want to be creating that comparison here. The last monster manual runs $23 on Amazon for 224 pages for a hardback. So more pages, better binding, cheaper price. Also you aren't paying a year in advance. As the investors in the project, its reasonable to expect better return for a loan a year out than the opportunity to pay retail...
If you're referring to the Bestiary 3, you're sadly mistaken, and it's quite the comparison I'd like to make. Though upon initial inspection, the only book that amazon lists at 23 USD is the Monster Manual 3 for 4th ed. So... The Monster Manual 3 for DnD 4th edition not 23, it's 34.99 from the retailer, which is the price you need to compare them at. Yes, it's 224 pages, it's full color, and it's hardback. But can you tell me (if you own this book) do you get 35 dollars worth of play out of this that you won't get out of a similarly priced book that is the ONLY way to add RPG monsters into your games? I own 2 Pathfinder Bestiaries, and maybe 2 monster manuals from 3.5 in hardcover form. I rarely go beyond Bestiary 1 in Pathfinder and rarely do I need anything outside of MM1 from 3.5
Like I've said, the creature compendium is superfluous (but would be damn nice) since they have the disposition system in the book. And if you're worried about generic models from the skirmish game, Wyrd has several FREE downloads on the their website with the latest stat cards for the starting boxes and several generic models of the factions. The only ones that don't have this are the new Ten Thunders Masters, all of which aren't even officially released yet.
And Brook, that's what a single large d20 is for. You whip that across the room, crack them in the skull and then tell them to bring the die back to you or you inflict more pain, but upon their character.
Alfndrate wrote:I'm not going to lie, they should have had Mack doing this from the beginning and they should have released a lot of the concept art at the beginning. I've never said that this KS is being run perfectly, something that everyone seems to keep ignoring when I post in this thread.
Alf, I'm pretty sure that No One is saying this . When people point out what is wrong with this campaign, even if it's responding to a quote of yours, they're not implying that you think it's perfect... just that it does indeed have huge problems, as you agree to. So no need to defend yourself against that accusation
Alfndrate wrote:I'm not going to lie, they should have had Mack doing this from the beginning and they should have released a lot of the concept art at the beginning. I've never said that this KS is being run perfectly, something that everyone seems to keep ignoring when I post in this thread.
Alf, I'm pretty sure that No One is saying this . When people point out what is wrong with this campaign, even if it's responding to a quote of yours, they're not implying that you think it's perfect... just that it does indeed have huge problems, as you agree to. So no need to defend yourself against that accusation
No, but I keep getting posts that make it seem as if I know big bad company secrets of Wyrd. In this thread alone I'm sure it's been implied that I'm a secret Wyrd employee, and I already know that one of our "esteemed" mods have accused me of drinking the Wyrd Kool-Aid...
Really? I don't think I've seen serious accusations of either if those things in here, though I haven't been religiously monitoring this thing either...
Buzzsaw wrote: Herein lies perhaps the greatest problem: it's very difficult to believe that Wyrd ever really intended for that Book Plan to reflect reality. As SpiralingCadaver noted, it seems clear that they anticipated a much higher, much faster accumulation of funds. Which is, in fairness, the pattern that many prominent campaigns have followed and indeed is very much the model that C'MoN uses, but they marry the approach with a low, hook-you-in pledge level.
You always set your expectations high. the EFT kickstarter had high expectations after making 5k a day for the first two or three days (it was a far smaller KS), and as things slowed in the middle of the campaign we tried things to bring in new backers. We changed some of the stretch goal levels and tried to bring in new blood. We lost a couple of major backers due to weather related reasons, but at the end of the day we tried our best to bring people into the drive. We had thoughts of what would happen all the way up to 500,000 dollars. Did we get near that? no, but it would be better than being caught with our pants down, which I'm not saying didn't happen to Wyrd.
Oh, to be sure. There is a rather nice thread on Reapers forums about starting up a campaign. The important issue though, is that while you were prepared up to $500k, you (I presume) weren't depending on making $100k or $200k in order to get the product properly done. Here is seems like they picked the initial $30k out of a hat and then simply assumed they were going to get to $300k in short order and start working on the 8 expansion books they keep pimping.
I suppose to be very technical, the difference is between what one expects, and what is being relied on. It seems that they relied on getting to $250,000 or more, and the project is suffering for the miscalculation.
So why is everything so slapdash? Information that would help people make informed decisions dribbles out like, while they have Martin pimp the bejesus out of stuff that has to be in the books. This is not to belittle what Mr. Martin is doing, but I have serious doubts about the number of people who's primary buying concern is the specific mechanics of the games, rather then the broad strokes.
I'm not going to lie, they should have had Mack doing this from the beginning and they should have released a lot of the concept art at the beginning. I've never said that this KS is being run perfectly, something that everyone seems to keep ignoring when I post in this thread.
RiTides aptly dealt with this (my "why...?" was rhetorical, not meant to be a question for Alf specifically). By no means do I expect you to answer for the flaws of the campaign. Indeed, one of the more damaging things I have noticed in the comments on the campaign is the increasing defensiveness on the part of some backers. It's entirely understandable, but it seems rather counterproductive.
Fenriswulf wrote: True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?
Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?
Whats the difference between what Wyrd intends to do and what Pathfinder and D&D do... Last I checked my book shelf I have 3 Beasteiry's for Pathfinder and I don't even want to count how many for D&D. The same can be said for Class/Prusuits.
You really don't want to be creating that comparison here. The last monster manual runs $23 on Amazon for 224 pages for a hardback. So more pages, better binding, cheaper price. Also you aren't paying a year in advance. As the investors in the project, its reasonable to expect better return for a loan a year out than the opportunity to pay retail...
Legally your not an investor, US law doesn't allow for micro investment. Additionally you'd be hard pressed to get much of a return on an investment given the current intrest rates.
Semantics are the bastion of the wrong. KS provides a source of capital investment through crowdsourcing. We are investors, any the rate of return on this one is weak compared to most other gaming KS I've seen. I'm still on the fence whether I'd rather have the dining room set, or $125 of Relic Knights or Kingdom Death add ons. The fact that we're even having a debate over whether or not its value is appropriate at RETAIL shows something.
Paizo website currently lists the Beastiary 3 at $40.00 plus shipping, you can't go by wholesalers/discounters when making a comparision.
Actually, I can. Since its how I, and most other people, buy things. Granted, Wyrd has always been very expensive, but still...
On the Hardback vs. Softcover argument, for every person you find that prefers a hard cover you'll find a person that prefers a softcover.
lol. I'm amazed you didn't also try and say that just as many people prefer smaller page counts, or black and white art...
RiTides aptly dealt with this (my "why...?" was rhetorical, not meant to be a question for Alf specifically). By no means do I expect you to answer for the flaws of the campaign. Indeed, one of the more damaging things I have noticed in the comments on the campaign is the increasing defensiveness on the part of some backers. It's entirely understandable, but it seems rather counterproductive.
This isn't too big a mystery - this campaign appeals most to the core group of Wyrd fans and it stands to reason that they'd be the group most heavily invested and potentially offended when now this campaign is being run gets questioned.
Alpharius wrote:Really? I don't think I've seen serious accusations of either if those things in here, though I haven't been religiously monitoring this thing either...
Sorry, here are the exact quotes:
I'm beginning to realize just how in lockstep with Wyrd you really are...
And you need to stand up straight and tuck your shirt in - your Wyrd knickers are showing!
Forgive me for using kool-aid, I was always taught to not plagiarize.
Buzzsaw wrote:Oh, to be sure. There is a rather nice thread on Reapers forums about starting up a campaign. The important issue though, is that while you were prepared up to $500k, you (I presume) weren't depending on making $100k or $200k in order to get the product properly done. Here is seems like they picked the initial $30k out of a hat and then simply assumed they were going to get to $300k in short order and start working on the 8 expansion books they keep pimping.
Gods no, and to be honest, I think that might be an issue. OTL is small in comparison to Wyrd, and it's probably Wyrd's initial thought of being too big to fail. They knew that the diehards would probably pledge and they would have no issue reaching 30k, set that up with a decent early pledge reward, and you're pulling in more people than initially thought. It burns out because you're right there is very little to keep people pledging.
I suppose to be very technical, the difference is between what one expects, and what is being relied on. It seems that they relied on getting to $250,000 or more, and the project is suffering for the miscalculation.
Catyrpelius wrote: Paizo website currently lists the Beastiary 3 at $40.00 plus shipping, you can't go by wholesalers/discounters when making a comparision.
Actually, I can. Since its how I, and most other people, buy things. Granted, Wyrd has always been very expensive, but still...
Please prove this statement, because while semantics might be the last bastion of the wrong, unfounded claims are the only bastion of sensationalists. You might buy most of your things via wholesalers and discounters, but not everyone does. Almost all of my purchases come from my FLGS. And Wyrd has been expensive? You're kidding right? Please point me to any other wargame that can get me a competitive army for around 60 dollars without discount? Infinity might be the ONLY other game that can do this.
The discussion of where the book is bought is missing the point.
We were told the books would be available from the KS for roughly 1/3 off retail. The bottom tier has both books for $60, leading one to conclude (given that they're apparently going to be the same size) that they're likely about $30 each, which makes the final retail price in the $40-45 range.
Presumably it will show up on Amazon for their usual 10-30% off (given that the average retail markup is 100%, this still turns a profit, but they make up a lower margin with lower overhead and vast quantities of product moved). Meaning that the baseline entry point is... essentially what you're likely to pay at release from Amazon.
If you live in the US.
If you live outside the US you end up paying $41 apiece, quite possibly paying literally MSRP or more.
The higher tiers depend on a lot of unknown factors. We can make educated guesses how much things like the fate deck and MPM's would be at retail, as Wyrd produces similar products already. Things like the doll are interesting but not a hit with everyone, and as Buzzsaw has discussed on the KS comments page, unique to each individual. Aside from "what it costs to actually make them / what they'd sell for as an MSRP", the rarity/individuality will skew people high or low as it does or doesn't appeal to them.
It's possible Hannah will go for $Texas on ebay, but I have doubts. Anyone so enthusiastic about snagging that they'd potentially spend Santana or NE LCB type amounts on it (100-250+) will likely just get their own now. Sure, some people will miss the KS, but the supply will quite likely have at least met a good portion of the demand. Seems like a safe bet it'll fall in a reasonable 25-50 range like many of the other LE figures.
For some people, getting a mix of products for slightly below MSRP is enough. However, as enthusiastic as I am and have been for the campaign, seeing it stall out for the past few weeks is problematic. One doesn't have to be a blind supporter or utterly negative to have criticisms and concerns, and watching us stall out while what could be excellent parts of the core books may be put off (potentially to later releases, possibly in 2014 or beyond given that they said they were aiming at a couple of books per year, not a slew of releases) has been troublesome. Seriously, in a week we had a net change of 0 backers and a gain of a grand. As has been noted earlier, 3/4 of the support showed up in the first 3 days. While that extra 1/4 isn't inconsiderable, it almost seems with hindsight like this might've had a much more solid buzz had they just made it a 2-4 week drive (perhaps shifted away from the holidays) and made sure the concept art and stretch goals were available from day one.
Fenriswulf wrote: True it's not unplayabale, just like a car with a busted axle, missing wheel and the park brake permanently on isn't undriveable - It's just not something I would really like to take out for a spin when I want to have fun. If the books are going to be short on such material, what's the point of getting them early when to have a much better rounded system I need to wait for a few expansion books?
Or more importantly - What's the point of backing this kickstarter in that case?
Whats the difference between what Wyrd intends to do and what Pathfinder and D&D do... Last I checked my book shelf I have 3 Beasteiry's for Pathfinder and I don't even want to count how many for D&D. The same can be said for Class/Prusuits.
You really don't want to be creating that comparison here. The last monster manual runs $23 on Amazon for 224 pages for a hardback. So more pages, better binding, cheaper price. Also you aren't paying a year in advance. As the investors in the project, its reasonable to expect better return for a loan a year out than the opportunity to pay retail...
If you're referring to the Bestiary 3, you're sadly mistaken, and it's quite the comparison I'd like to make. Though upon initial inspection, the only book that amazon lists at 23 USD is the Monster Manual 3 for 4th ed. So... The Monster Manual 3 for DnD 4th edition not 23, it's 34.99 from the retailer, which is the price you need to compare them at. Yes, it's 224 pages, it's full color, and it's hardback. But can you tell me (if you own this book) do you get 35 dollars worth of play out of this that you won't get out of a similarly priced book that is the ONLY way to add RPG monsters into your games? I own 2 Pathfinder Bestiaries, and maybe 2 monster manuals from 3.5 in hardcover form. I rarely go beyond Bestiary 1 in Pathfinder and rarely do I need anything outside of MM1 from 3.5
You're losing even more ground if you want to compare base rulebooks to this. The players handbook is $23 for 320 pages. Pathfinder core is $32 for 576 pages. And yes, I can go by Amazon prices, because full retail is for suckers in this day and age and its how a large portion of sales are made. However, its not like I pay retail for my Malifaux figs either. And this is what really annoys me. Even compared to themselves, the $60 level is poor value. Off Miniature Market, where I get a lot of my figs, the Malifaux core rulebook is $26 for 234 pages. So really anyone at the $60 level not getting a MIss T is better off canceling their pledge, and picking up the books through Amazon, Mini Market, The War Store, or any other discounter. And that's everyone at that level at this point. Unless you think Wyrd is really going to try and pass these for $45+ each at retail ...$10 over their similar page count core book. And that's assuming this thing hits $225k to get up to 228 pages, which is kind of doubtful given how its run. Seriously, the players books wont contain the basic world history and the game master book wont have the secret setting info otherwise?
Wyrd's whole "screw you if you don't want to give us extra money a year in advance... you're just being greedy" attitude have really turned me off from them as a company.
I was browsing through kicktraq and what's shocking is the loss of backers. I looked at the top 10 or so and no others have a net backer loss at all. That in itself is troubling.
As to the $30k initial, it means one of two things:
1. It's a completely disingenuous number that they tossed out (this has been alluded to) that has no relatively bearing on what $$ funding the actually need. I have a big problem with this. I said it before, but who is to say what these funds are for? Most other KSers give a clear listing of what they'll be using the successful funding amount for. Perhaps KS doesn't require it. Maybe they should.
2. Wyrd is inept and unable to correctly project what they need and should make. If, as their list alludes, that they actually need $250k to make a complete product, then their projection is $50k off and someone should be fired.
So they're arrogant liars or they're inept. Not sure which is more disconcerting.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: You're losing even more ground if you want to compare base rulebooks to this. The players handbook is $23 for 320 pages. Pathfinder core is $32 for 576 pages. And yes, I can go by Amazon prices, because full retail is for suckers in this day and age and its how a large portion of sales are made. However, its not like I pay retail for my Malifaux figs either. And this is what really annoys me. Even compared to themselves, the $60 level is poor value. Off Miniature Market, where I get a lot of my figs, the Malifaux core rulebook is $26 for 234 pages. So really anyone at the $60 level not getting a MIss T is better off canceling their pledge, and picking up the books through Amazon, Mini Market, The War Store, or any other discounter. And that's everyone at that level at this point. Unless you think Wyrd is really going to try and pass these for $45+ each at retail ...$10 over their similar page count core book. And that's assuming this thing hits $225k to get up to 228 pages, which is kind of doubtful given how its run. Seriously, the players books wont contain the basic world history and the game master book wont have the secret setting info otherwise?
I haven't compared RPG books since page 3 of this thread before we had an idea of these books, and even then I suggested then that if they're even roughly the same size and quality of comparative RPG books, 30 to 35 dollars for roughly 200 pages of content is still decent at the quality of Wyrd's previous books. I pointed out back then that the Pathfinder Core Rules is the end all be all of basically everything you could hope for in an RPG book. The only thing that it's missing is monster information, and even if you split that book into a DMG and a PHB you'd probably have 2 books roughly 250 pages each at least. I could see the PHB side of things being 300 and the DMG side being 276, they would probably still charge 35 dollars LIKE EVERY OTHER RPG BOOK ON THE MARKET! And Wyrd doesn't care where you buy their models from. Like with every other retailer, the price on their website is a bigger profit for them, and yet with the exception of GenCon, Wyrd always says to buy from your flgs. If you prefer to buy from MIniatureMarket that's fine and that's your prerogative. I buy from my flgs because he gets in stock and he let's me run events there free of charge and gives me as much space as I need. My old store? not so much, so I bought through miniature market. And the phrase "full retail is for suckers" all depends on your perception. I support my flgs because without him I wouldn't have public play space. This may not be true at your store. Or you might be a home gamer. And at 23 dollars for a rulebook (outside of an older GW codex) any book is a nice price, which is why you compare it at retail because not everyone buys through amazon. Like I said, please prove your statement.
Wyrd's whole "screw you if you don't want to give us extra money a year in advance... you're just being greedy" attitude have really turned me off from them as a company.
They've never said this. In fact they said they don't care if you wait until it's released. Again, that's your prerogative.
Alf, I sort disagree. They've been pretty adamant that if you don't like it, they don't want you to be a part of it. Poorly hiding it behind the thin veil of "we want to protect the LGS" is a giant load of lip service.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the folks on their comment boards have done nothing t change that perception.
Alpharius wrote:
Please prove this statement, because while semantics might be the last bastion of the wrong, unfounded claims are the only bastion of sensationalists. You might buy most of your things via wholesalers and discounters, but not everyone does. Almost all of my purchases come from my FLGS.
Its been widely cited as a significant cause for the decline of the LGS.
And Wyrd has been expensive? You're kidding right? Please point me to any other wargame that can get me a competitive army for around 60 dollars without discount? Infinity might be the ONLY other game that can do this.
Kings of War? Warmahordes? A battle box and a couple solos will get you to the minimum playable (15pts). Also, stuff like Baby Kade has to have been priced on a bet. $45 for Ash and Dust? $12 for 3 rats? That's approaching GW level redonkulous. I've mostly collected everything in Neverborn and Outcasts, but some of them were hard to swallow for what they were.
cincydooley wrote: Alf, I sort disagree. They've been pretty adamant that if you don't like it, they don't want you to be a part of it. Poorly hiding it behind the thin veil of "we want to protect the LGS" is a giant load of lip service.
The comment was presented as a quote, and even when you look at the meaning behind what Bossk_Hogg wrote, it's still never been said. He's implying that. And I would agree with you on the "lip service" aspect of protecting the LGS if this was the first time they mentioned it, and it hasn't been a well known business practice amongst Wyrd regulars.
cincydooley wrote: Alf, I sort disagree. They've been pretty adamant that if you don't like it, they don't want you to be a part of it. Poorly hiding it behind the thin veil of "we want to protect the LGS" is a giant load of lip service.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the folks on their comment boards have done nothing t change that perception.
Seconded. I'm a backer, and a fan boy, and even I haven't been blind to the commentary and subtext that has basically been "if you don't like it you're welcome to not back it". I'm not expecting them to grovel and throw themselves at the feet of the community, but you don't need to look very far to see comments touting how "this KS is being run differently", or "it's not all about swag and nick nacks". It's a strange dichotomy of apparently aiming for a quarter million or more in backing, but being happy to just present people a trickle of info and responding to many polite requests with "nope, sorry, not interested, doing it our way".
Like the tiers, EBO had like a dozen of them, but somehow this one only has 6 4? Was there a mutiny in the warehouse after the EBO event ended? They could have added any number of variations on the tiers to better attract interest and still avoided their "we don't do add ons unless you pay $500+" issue.
Please prove this statement, because while semantics might be the last bastion of the wrong, unfounded claims are the only bastion of sensationalists. You might buy most of your things via wholesalers and discounters, but not everyone does. Almost all of my purchases come from my FLGS.
Its been widely cited as a significant cause for the decline of the LGS.
And Wyrd has been expensive? You're kidding right? Please point me to any other wargame that can get me a competitive army for around 60 dollars without discount? Infinity might be the ONLY other game that can do this.
Kings of War? Warmahordes? A battle box and a couple solos will get you to the minimum playable (15pts). Also, stuff like Baby Kade has to have been priced on a bet. $45 for Ash and Dust? $12 for 3 rats? That's approaching GW level redonkulous. I've mostly collected everything in Neverborn and Outcasts, but some of them were hard to swallow for what they were.
Competitive means the average point size for the game. Both Malifaux and Warmahordes play at 35 points in the average competitive scene and by extension the average games play at this point size. I own 3 Warmachine armies and 2 Hordes armies. None of my competitive builds were created for around 60 dollars. My Trollbloods list costs close to 150 dollars. For that price I can create 2 competitive 35ss Malifaux crews. As for Kings of War, I've never played that, so I would like it if you provided a list at the average point costs near the price I quoted. Seeing as my Undead Army I bought from them cost me 60 after a discount, I do not think it's really possible.
Actually 12 dollars for 3 models isn't that unheard of in wargaming. Unit Attachments for many warmachine and hordes armies are roughly that price.
Another advantage to a shorter run (again, more hindsight) would be that the info they have to give would've been condensed. More to share per day. While Mack has been a viking about giving insight into the design process and mechanics (at least as works in progress), it has felt like they've been struggling to fill the void with daily updates. It's not hard to miss that the "We're at XXX% funding!" comments alone were looking pretty anemic when the jump would be like 5-10% over the course of a weekend.
cincydooley wrote: Alf, I sort disagree. They've been pretty adamant that if you don't like it, they don't want you to be a part of it. Poorly hiding it behind the thin veil of "we want to protect the LGS" is a giant load of lip service.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the folks on their comment boards have done nothing t change that perception.
Seconded. I'm a backer, and a fan boy, and even I haven't been blind to the commentary and subtext that has basically been "if you don't like it you're welcome to not back it". I'm not expecting them to grovel and throw themselves at the feet of the community, but you don't need to look very far to see comments touting how "this KS is being run differently", or "it's not all about swag and nick nacks". It's a strange dichotomy of apparently aiming for a quarter million or more in backing, but being happy to just present people a trickle of info and responding to many polite requests with "nope, sorry, not interested, doing it our way".
Like the tiers, EBO had like a dozen of them, but somehow this one only has 6 4? Was there a mutiny in the warehouse after the EBO event ended? They could have added any number of variations on the tiers to better attract interest and still avoided their "we don't do add ons unless you pay $500+" issue.
One of the most bizarre elements to come out of this campaign is the statement, I think it was by Nathan(?), that the reason why they would not be including options or more diverse load-outs was that their shipping and QC department simply would not be able to handle it. Which in turn informs statements like "They have also avoided the trap of selling and shipping things and thereby losing money." (Taken from a backer comment.)
That's a rather amazing statement right there: yes, very clever of them to avoid the trap of selling things, and thus being required to actually get them to customers!
Well I think quite a few KS projects do end up in the red, especially if they havn't really looked at what the shipping will cost them
all too easy to weigh your product, but forget the packing, warehouse staff time etc,
not to mention relying on backers to go in at a certain level you expect to be the most popular (where you've left yourself a margin), rather than a different one (where there's not)
played right even a loss making KS could be a success in the long term (publicity, product development done, moulds made etc). In the short term it could be tricky (but a company Wryds size should have the margin to cope anyway)
back on topic (see where I went there) over the last 7 days they've had 0 extra backers (16 new in, 16 old out), and taken an extra $1023
Buzzsaw wrote: One of the most bizarre elements to come out of this campaign is the statement, I think it was by Nathan(?), that the reason why they would not be including options or more diverse load-outs was that their shipping and QC department simply would not be able to handle it. Which in turn informs statements like "They have also avoided the trap of selling and shipping things and thereby losing money." (Taken from a backer comment.)
That's a rather amazing statement right there: yes, very clever of them to avoid the trap of selling things, and thus being required to actually get them to customers!
I saw that comment on the KS page, too. Clever indeed
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:Back on topic (see where I went there) over the last 7 days they've had 0 extra backers (16 new in, 16 old out), and taken an extra $1023
They've also lost several of the $225 backers. They had 362 at one point, and are now down to 358. I actually just dropped out, myself. I realized that I was in it for the extras and the game itself had no real draw for me. Well, that and knowing that this KS was being run so... uncaringly. I like my money to feel appreciated when I pledge it. Here, I just didn't feel like I was appreciated as a backer.
In the end, it will still be a somewhat successful campaign and the regular Wyrd fans will be happy and an opportunity to expand their player base will largely have been missed.
Given all that, it is strange they even went for a Kickstarter at all!
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Well I think quite a few KS projects do end up in the red, especially if they havn't really looked at what the shipping will cost them
all too easy to weigh your product, but forget the packing, warehouse staff time etc,
not to mention relying on backers to go in at a certain level you expect to be the most popular (where you've left yourself a margin), rather than a different one (where there's not)
played right even a loss making KS could be a success in the long term (publicity, product development done, moulds made etc). In the short term it could be tricky (but a company Wryds size should have the margin to cope anyway)
back on topic (see where I went there) over the last 7 days they've had 0 extra backers (16 new in, 16 old out), and taken an extra $1023
While that's certainly possible, most of the time I see people talking about how "some company lost big on their mega kickstarter" it seems to be some variation on the rumor about Reaper. Which (as discussed in this thread) really comes from a misunderstanding of a particular quote, mangled by the passage (ReaperBryan addresses it on page 4).
To your point about the churn of backers, it goes to something that Cyporiean brought up in the KD thread. I think it's the case in any sizable number of people that you'll unavoidably have some churn: if for no other reason then unforeseen occurrences come up and people realize they don't have as much money free as they supposed.
There is always going to be a balance between gains and losses: in a healthy campaign the equilibrium is weighted on the gain side. But you also bring up something very important; "played right even a loss making KS could be a success in the long term (publicity, product development done, moulds made etc)" the area of publicity and impression on the consumer, that is an area where it seems difficult to judge this as anything but a boondoggle.
Think of the campaigns that have done more then just get products to market: I would say Dreamforge is at the top of the list. Not because Mark raised such a huge amount of money, but because he's had a consistent opportunity to interact with the community and has used the opportunity to really wow people not just with his designs, but attention to customers.
Alpharius wrote: In the end, it will still be a somewhat successful campaign and the regular Wyrd fans will be happy and an opportunity to expand their player base will largely have been missed.
Given all that, it is strange they even went for a Kickstarter at all!
That is my feeling as well. I was only vaguely aware of Malifaux and Wyrd, and when I heard they were launching a campaign, I got really excited! Now was my chance to really sink my teeth into the company! Then this project launches and the attitude of Wyrd themselves really put me off. I am very new to miniatures as a hobby, but I am a massive RPG enthusiast, so I was looking forward to getting both of my appetites whetted here. I was mistaken in that assumption. This may not be fair, it may not be correct, but the campaign has actually turned me off of Wyrd as a company. It's just the impression they left on me has not been good and, since I don't have any good or bad interactions with them to draw from, this didn't make me feel good about them. Like I said, not fair, but it's just how I feel.
Its bad when my wife (who wants the Wicked Doll more than life itself) tells me that maybe I should cancel my pledge if the company is going to act like that. She has more malifaux minis than I do, and was actually the one who got me into it in the first place....which was a first.
Alpharius wrote: In the end, it will still be a somewhat successful campaign and the regular Wyrd fans will be happy and an opportunity to expand their player base will largely have been missed.
Given all that, it is strange they even went for a Kickstarter at all!
That is my feeling as well. I was only vaguely aware of Malifaux and Wyrd, and when I heard they were launching a campaign, I got really excited! Now was my chance to really sink my teeth into the company! Then this project launches and the attitude of Wyrd themselves really put me off. I am very new to miniatures as a hobby, but I am a massive RPG enthusiast, so I was looking forward to getting both of my appetites whetted here. I was mistaken in that assumption. This may not be fair, it may not be correct, but the campaign has actually turned me off of Wyrd as a company. It's just the impression they left on me has not been good and, since I don't have any good or bad interactions with them to draw from, this didn't make me feel good about them. Like I said, not fair, but it's just how I feel.
I think this may be the one quote that highlights the primary deficiency with this KS: a new customer with no previous interaction with Wyrd has been turned off to them by this campaign. Not excited. Not left neutral. Turned off. That's a huge loss in my book.
For many if us that have previous experience with Wyrd, we typically have at least one good experience to balance it out, be it through a Wyrd employee or as an interaction with Mack. For recruittons, he doesn't, and this is the impression made by this KS. Not good.
Please prove this statement, because while semantics might be the last bastion of the wrong, unfounded claims are the only bastion of sensationalists. You might buy most of your things via wholesalers and discounters, but not everyone does. Almost all of my purchases come from my FLGS. And Wyrd has been expensive? You're kidding right? Please point me to any other wargame that can get me a competitive army for around 60 dollars without discount? Infinity might be the ONLY other game that can do this.
Not all customers are looking to buy a whole army at once. It might be nice to hook someone with a small purchase that demonstrates good value. I know I've only bought one set of Malifaux figures, just to try painting them, because they are so expensive. Guess how many Reaper models I've bought despite never playing Warlord, DnD, Pathfinder, or any TT wargame? I'll give you a hint: it's a lot higher than $60 worth.
It's Mack here on New Year's Eve. Much to my embarrassment Santa failed to bring my super powers once again over the holidays. So instead of harnessing the power of mind bullets I'm going to chat a little bit about our plans for the Kickstarter as we enter the home stretch. We are extremely pleased with the support the Kickstarter has received, especially considering the holiday season. However, now it's time to get a little crazy, and really get things rolling as we round the bend towards the finish line.
But we're a game company... so that means we're going to play some games! Once everyone gets back into the office on Wednesday (January 2nd) the fun will start. We have a lot of ideas, and we all need to get together and brainstorm all the fun stuff we thought of (and you suggested) over the holiday break. So be prepared, we're going to give you guys a chance to win some cool stuff, both for everyone and for individual backers.
So keep your eye out for that update email... and be prepared to have a lot of fun here in the home stretch of the Through The Breach Kickstarter!
Mack Martin is a good soldier, but I'm starting to feel a bit bad for the guy.
Please prove this statement, because while semantics might be the last bastion of the wrong, unfounded claims are the only bastion of sensationalists. You might buy most of your things via wholesalers and discounters, but not everyone does. Almost all of my purchases come from my FLGS.
Its been widely cited as a significant cause for the decline of the LGS.
And Wyrd has been expensive? You're kidding right? Please point me to any other wargame that can get me a competitive army for around 60 dollars without discount? Infinity might be the ONLY other game that can do this.
Kings of War? Warmahordes? A battle box and a couple solos will get you to the minimum playable (15pts). Also, stuff like Baby Kade has to have been priced on a bet. $45 for Ash and Dust? $12 for 3 rats? That's approaching GW level redonkulous. I've mostly collected everything in Neverborn and Outcasts, but some of them were hard to swallow for what they were.
Competitive means the average point size for the game. Both Malifaux and Warmahordes play at 35 points in the average competitive scene and by extension the average games play at this point size. I own 3 Warmachine armies and 2 Hordes armies. None of my competitive builds were created for around 60 dollars. My Trollbloods list costs close to 150 dollars. For that price I can create 2 competitive 35ss Malifaux crews. As for Kings of War, I've never played that, so I would like it if you provided a list at the average point costs near the price I quoted. Seeing as my Undead Army I bought from them cost me 60 after a discount, I do not think it's really possible.
Sorry, byt $60 is about 6 figures, and that's before they raised the price a bit with their plastics. You've got some VERY specific lists to fill out 30 soul stones for 60 bucks, with no variety. Dark Debts is $40 for... 18 points? Better spend that next $20 wisely. I'm sorry but some of the models are just stupid expensive for what they are (Hi Nekima!). A squirt of molten pewter on a 50mm base with a 20 soulstone stat card isn't a good value just because it fills up your warband quicker. A good number of the models themselves are just pricey for the sculpts and what they are.
Actually 12 dollars for 3 models isn't that unheard of in wargaming. Unit Attachments for many warmachine and hordes armies are roughly that price.
$12 for 3 rats is a nasty joke, particularly given how many you need. I always point people towards reaper's at $3.50 for 6. Seriously man, I get they give you little perks to cheerlead, but even still...
...which will have the KS staff knockin' at their door - it's not the explicitly prohibited 'raffle ticket as a pledge reward' schtick, but I'm reasonably sure other campaigns have gotten in trouble for even incidental raffles before...
"The Canon Campaign Raffle at GenCon: Everyone who pledges at any reward level and also attends GenCon may enter the raffle there to be a part of our Canon Campaign, run on-site by Mack Martin. The players in this campaign will help shape the future of Malifaux and their characters will be entered into canon in an upcoming book."
I'd say so.
However the main reason KS doesn't allow raffles, I suspect, is wildly varying legislation regarding lotteries from place to place.
Now if this raffle only raffles something with no really tangible financial value a lot of that legislation just won't apply.
Not saying that goes for all of it and I'm making an assumption as to their reasoning here, but it might have something to do with it.
As soon as they raffle off even one mini though, they probably have a problem
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Sorry, but $60 is about 6 figures, and that's before they raised the price a bit with their plastics. You've got some VERY specific lists to fill out 30 soul stones for 60 bucks, with no variety. Dark Debts is $40 for... 18 points? Better spend that next $20 wisely. I'm sorry but some of the models are just stupid expensive for what they are (Hi Nekima!). A squirt of molten pewter on a 50mm base with a 20 soulstone stat card isn't a good value just because it fills up your warband quicker. A good number of the models themselves are just pricey for the sculpts and what they are.
Well, I've only just started looking into Malifaux but I believe Cult of december, essence of power, silent one x2 actually gets you precisely 35SS - which isn't good as I believe you'll actually want to leave one of the Gamin out to have a few SS to play with? I remember those models being advised as a good way to start Malifaux with, if you really wanted to go 'Tina. That's $59,50 MSRP for you there. I didn't actually try for that - this is just my to buy list, soon-ish (I think, Wyrds attitude with this KS has kind of turned me off of trying Malifaux for a while).
as are coupons, discounts and cash value gift cards
and since I've seen several existing mini based KS offering one or more of these without issue, some as 'pick what you want from our online shop during the KS',
one at least with a flat out coupon spendable at some point in the future
but as with many things stuff can slip through the cracks if nobody complains
(but yes a backer dropping them a reminder would probably be smart as a big project with drop outs is more likely to attract complaints than a small project where folk are just looking for an excuse to spend more)
Those latter three are banned because of KS doctrine though. Lotteries/raffles are banned because it's basically illegal to offer them without all kinds of specific measures in many places...
Yeah, I think alerting them that they're breaking the TOS with Kickstarter is probably a good idea... I'd be interested in seeing the response (if any), too.
Bolognesus wrote: I didn't actually try for that - this is just my to buy list, soon-ish (I think, Wyrds attitude with this KS has kind of turned me off of trying Malifaux for a while).
I'm right there, too. I like to dip my toes in first before I spend a lot with a company. I start out with a couple of models to see if I like their style. (Malifaux doesn't have many models I like already, and the prices make matters worse.) Then I read some of the backstory and see if I like it. (So far I haven't found a Malifaux book priced low enough for me to get it "just for fluff".) Finally, I'll try getting a small force together to paint up and write my own fluff, since I never get to game anymore. After playing some demo games and getting some of the plastics at SoCal Smackdown, I was interested in Malifaux. However, this Kickstarter has pretty much convinced me that Wyrd are a laughing stock and not worth the time or money. I think I've enjoyed this thread far, far more than I would enjoy any fluff that could possibly make sense out of all of their silly models.
There's no end to the blind kool-aid drinking in the KS forum. I want to stop....but I just can't.....
About the same on Wyrds forum.
I think it's funny so many over there are talking about how "Wyrd is doing it like this for the LGS" but conveniently forge that Wyrd releases models at GenCon that LGSs can't get for months.
Please prove this statement, because while semantics might be the last bastion of the wrong, unfounded claims are the only bastion of sensationalists. You might buy most of your things via wholesalers and discounters, but not everyone does. Almost all of my purchases come from my FLGS. And Wyrd has been expensive? You're kidding right? Please point me to any other wargame that can get me a competitive army for around 60 dollars without discount? Infinity might be the ONLY other game that can do this.
Not all customers are looking to buy a whole army at once. It might be nice to hook someone with a small purchase that demonstrates good value. I know I've only bought one set of Malifaux figures, just to try painting them, because they are so expensive. Guess how many Reaper models I've bought despite never playing Warlord, DnD, Pathfinder, or any TT wargame? I'll give you a hint: it's a lot higher than $60 worth.
I'm trying to figure out what you deem to be expensive. Avoiding buying the deck because you can get a deck of cards and 6 dice for around dollar at Wal-Mart with a free cheat sheet off of Wyrd's Website, so Malifaux or Warmahordes, you've got your cheap alternative. Your average starter box costs anywhere between 27 and 37 USD. That's roughly 5 to 6 minis for that price. That makes each mini in the box anywhere from roughly 4 to 6 bucks a mini. Even pathfinder minis cost roughly that amount. Throw in the 15 dollar rules manual and you've got a fully legal army AND the core rules for around 50 bucks. Yes, Warmahordes can do the same thing for the same price, but you have to have a friend to get you that same price. So, I'm curious as to how you consider that expensive. Maybe if you don't play their game it's going to be expensive, but barring the new plastic starters, everything in those boxes you can get in blisters. I really don't care what you spend your money on. The most valuable figs in my gaming closest is the 88 dollars I spent on a case of dnd pre-painted minis, guess what... That's higher than 60 dollars as well.
Bossk_Hogg wrote:Sorry, byt $60 is about 6 figures, and that's before they raised the price a bit with their plastics. You've got some VERY specific lists to fill out 30 soul stones for 60 bucks, with no variety. Dark Debts is $40 for... 18 points? Better spend that next $20 wisely. I'm sorry but some of the models are just stupid expensive for what they are (Hi Nekima!). A squirt of molten pewter on a 50mm base with a 20 soulstone stat card isn't a good value just because it fills up your warband quicker. A good number of the models themselves are just pricey for the sculpts and what they are.
Nekima (who's only 13 soulstones, thanks for the hyperbole) is well known in the Malifaux community as being over costed for what she brings to the table and is currently being faq'd much like Hamelin the Plagued, who didn't cost enough for what he brought to the table. And yes, 35 dollars is a lot to spend on a metal model on a 50mm base... Oh wait, that's the price for the warjack kits isn't it... Don't they come on 50mm bases too? Sure you can get 3 jacks out of 1 kit, but you have to magnetize the kit, not everyone knows how to do that. A poster at the top of the page already pointed out the Rasputina box (31.50), an essence of power totem (9.00), and 2 silent ones (19.00 for the pair) is a decently competitive 35 soulstone list for a grand total of 59.50, but hey as you said, only suckers pay retail. You could get that from miniaturemarket for 44.62 plus the five dollars in shipping, dang you save money, what's stopping you from getting that?. You can give Tina some of her stones back by dropping one of the 3 ice gamins. Are there better lists for her? yes, but this list utilizes the basic tools for the master and is a great learning tool.
As for the Dark Debts box for 40? For 11 dollars more you buy the pack of beckoners and you have a 28 point list that gives Jakob Lynch 8 soulstones that he deperately needs. If you're willing to shell out an extra dollar you could instead buy the depleted and have a list that gives Jakob 7 soulstones in his starting cache and have 6 hardy minions on the board plus Hungering Darkness, the powerhouse of the crew. So yeah, for 60 bucks I can make a decent Jakob Lynch crew, though to be fair I'd probably ask for a little bit of spending money so I could buy the beckoners too, but that's just me wishing to use all of his good (non-character) pieces.
And if you want a decent tournament proven master?
How's about Pandora, using just her, the three sorrows and baby kade from her box(33.00), a primordial magic, Lelu and Lilitu (the twins) (all three models are 9.50 each) comes in at 61.50. I could at that point save money by buying Baby Kade, Pandora, and 3 sorrows, which would put me at 60 dollars even, though I feel that the addition of Candy is worth it.
So, please tell me how this game is expensive? 60 dollars is far within the impulse buy zone of the average table top gamer, considering the price of GW pieces, the price of single magic cards, and the price of RPG books and supplements. For the price of a HellDrake I can get a decently competitive army in Malifaux.
$12 for 3 rats is a nasty joke, particularly given how many you need. I always point people towards reaper's at $3.50 for 6.
Thanks, when I start Hamelin, I'll pick up a pack of Rats for the stat cards, and then go to reaper for the rest.
Seriously man, I get they give you little perks to cheerlead, but even still...
They don't give us perks to cheerlead. Forar and I are both Henchman, and he's been quite critical of this kickstarter. The difference is that I find very little fault with the value of what I'm getting in the kickstarter. I feel that my 125 is well spent, and I'll enjoy the game regardless, because I enjoy RPGs and have a handful of different books. Forar has to swallow 44 dollars of shipping to get his stuff shipped to Canada, which would make anyone cautious about the money their spending, and would hope that you can at least make your money back in backer rewards.
As for the "raffle" Mack mentioned, I have no doubt this is different than the GenCon Canon Campaign. For a few reasons
1) This seems kind of sprung to get people to back
2) The Canon Campaign Raffle will most likely take place once the backer surveys have been sent out to see if someone is going to GenCon or not.
3) KS tends to have to approve projects before they're put up, the Endless kickstarter was being put on hold by KS because OTL still owed a few people their figs (I was one of them).
While Wyrd isn't always perfect, I 100% agree with Alf-- Wyrd's crews are very affordable, and their minis are on par with just about any other skirmish setting in price and quality (the latter being subjective to a degree).
My thoughts on the 'fun'... I think those who have pledged should not remain silent (we've had too many false starts with this campaign and they are running out of time to get it right!)
From my comments on the kickstarter: I'm interested to see what the fun is. At the minute, however, I'm more interested in a competitive deal. I don't want to 'win' stuff. I pledge, support the campaign and receive benefits in return (zombicide and sedition wars are my comparisons).
So far, the sprue concept art (I would have thought we could see more though), plus faith that Wyrd is a reliable, quality games company has kept me hanging on. Mack's done a good job keeping me involved in this kickstarter too, but the stretch goals suggest the game will be half finished at this point and that worries me.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Not all customers are looking to buy a whole army at once. It might be nice to hook someone with a small purchase that demonstrates good value. I know I've only bought one set of Malifaux figures, just to try painting them, because they are so expensive. Guess how many Reaper models I've bought despite never playing Warlord, DnD, Pathfinder, or any TT wargame? I'll give you a hint: it's a lot higher than $60 worth.
I'm trying to figure out what you deem to be expensive. Avoiding buying the deck because you can get a deck of cards and 6 dice for around dollar at Wal-Mart with a free cheat sheet off of Wyrd's Website, so Malifaux or Warmahordes, you've got your cheap alternative. Your average starter box costs anywhere between 27 and 37 USD. That's roughly 5 to 6 minis for that price. That makes each mini in the box anywhere from roughly 4 to 6 bucks a mini. Even pathfinder minis cost roughly that amount. Throw in the 15 dollar rules manual and you've got a fully legal army AND the core rules for around 50 bucks. Yes, Warmahordes can do the same thing for the same price, but you have to have a friend to get you that same price. So, I'm curious as to how you consider that expensive. Maybe if you don't play their game it's going to be expensive, but barring the new plastic starters, everything in those boxes you can get in blisters. I really don't care what you spend your money on. The most valuable figs in my gaming closest is the 88 dollars I spent on a case of dnd pre-painted minis, guess what... That's higher than 60 dollars as well.
I don't want to buy a starter set. Let me be blunt: there is not one single box set of Malifaux models that contains only models worth owning. Individual models are too expensive an impulse buy for what they are (interesting at best), while the boxes of three plastics tend to go: 1 awesome model, 1 decent model, 1 model I wouldn't take for free, for a price that could buy me ten nice enough plastic models from Mantic or 30 pretty good models from WGF that I can convert without worrying if I screw something up, or 10 Bones models or... well, lots of things that rule better than "I guess it's Cajun cheesepunk?" models for a background that doesn't interest me. For their aesthetic, Malifaux models are expensive.
You are still talking about the price of a whole army compared to another whole army. Not every person buys models in terms of whole armies. In fact, I would bet most people try out new ranges by the individual box. If there is no "why not?" bait-and-hook box to nab a potential customer with that first sale, then that can be a significant barrier to entry.
So, please tell me how this game is expensive? 60 dollars is far within the impulse buy zone of the average table top gamer, considering the price of GW pieces, the price of single magic cards, and the price of RPG books and supplements. For the price of a HellDrake I can get a decently competitive army in Malifaux.
Are you gaming with Will Smith or something? $60 (plus the time investment to assemble and paint the models, and to learn the rules for an actual gamer) does not sound like an impulse buy to me.
In spite of my dissatisfaction with Wyrd as a company, Malifaux isn't an expensive game to play. The rulebook download helps with initial startup costs, but for some reason Wyrd filled it with a load of markups and rubbish blocking some of the info.........
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: In spite of my dissatisfaction with Wyrd as a company, Malifaux isn't an expensive game to play. The rulebook download helps with initial startup costs, but for some reason Wyrd filled it with a load of markups and rubbish blocking some of the info.........
You mean blocking out the artwork? Yea, I think it's suppose to be some sort of incentive to get you to go out and actually buy the physical rulebook some day. Not the way I would have done the .pdf rules but then they never asked me, did they?
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: In spite of my dissatisfaction with Wyrd as a company, Malifaux isn't an expensive game to play. The rulebook download helps with initial startup costs, but for some reason Wyrd filled it with a load of markups and rubbish blocking some of the info.........
You mean blocking out the artwork? Yea, I think it's suppose to be some sort of incentive to get you to go out and actually buy the physical rulebook some day. Not the way I would have done the .pdf rules but then they never asked me, did they?
I had the mini rulebook already (got all of the books apart from the latest one) and downloaded PDF when whoring the game to a friend. Very odd seeing bits crossed out and stamped over. Artwork is fair enough, but I think some of the diagrams and scenarios were lost as well.
This KS may have had a lot of problems, but it's certainly been entertaining to follow! Might chuck 'em a dollar just for that.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I don't want to buy a starter set. Let me be blunt: there is not one single box set of Malifaux models that contains only models worth owning. Individual models are too expensive an impulse buy for what they are (interesting at best), while the boxes of three plastics tend to go: 1 awesome model, 1 decent model, 1 model I wouldn't take for free, for a price that could buy me ten nice enough plastic models from Mantic or 30 pretty good models from WGF that I can convert without worrying if I screw something up, or 10 Bones models or... well, lots of things that rule better than "I guess it's Cajun cheesepunk?" models for a background that doesn't interest me. For their aesthetic, Malifaux models are expensive.
That's fine all of that is opinion, but when metal pathfinder models are priced similarly to the Malifaux figs it comes down to what you like in a miniatures aesthetic. Your last line is the only thing that needs to be said, you find the Malifaux models expensive because you don't like their look. Fine, I'm not shoving the models down your throat.
You are still talking about the price of a whole army compared to another whole army. Not every person buys models in terms of whole armies. In fact, I would bet most people try out new ranges by the individual box. If there is no "why not?" bait-and-hook box to nab a potential customer with that first sale, then that can be a significant barrier to entry.
Except that I compared model to model (Nekima vs. Warjack Kit), I listed army lists for 60 dollars because someone told me that it's not easily done, and I compared whole armies to single models (army lists vs HellDrake). If you want to buy a single model to paint and display, you should probably stick to an aesthetic you like and honestly not buy models that don't appeal to you, not trying to be mean with that one, but that's a pretty basic thing when talking about the hobby we all share on this site.
So, please tell me how this game is expensive? 60 dollars is far within the impulse buy zone of the average table top gamer, considering the price of GW pieces, the price of single magic cards, and the price of RPG books and supplements. For the price of a HellDrake I can get a decently competitive army in Malifaux.
Are you gaming with Will Smith or something? $60 (plus the time investment to assemble and paint the models, and to learn the rules for an actual gamer) does not sound like an impulse buy to me.
The first part of your statement has no bearing on the second. Who I game with doesn't determine how I spend my money. Impulse buying RARELY takes the assembling and painting time into the purchase, because it's based on emotion which can be caused simply be the aesthetics of the models, just ask Dakkanauts how many boxes of models they have sitting around still in boxes, assembled and primed, or in some weird stage of both of those, and then ask why they bought it. It's usually, "I had plans to start an army, or I liked the look of it, or it's the new hotness for my army and I wanted to pick it up, idk if i'll use it." The impulse buy comes from the fact that like you, I'm a wargamer and I spend my time building, assembling, painting and playing. If you compare that 60 dollars for an army to a video game (which are 60 dollars brand new) which many people go in, and say, "hey I want to try this game." and they pick up w/e the new fangled hot gak is this week, they drop 60 bucks and they go on their way. I'm not quite sure where you think 60 dollars is expensive, since you haven't really explained that. If it is, you probably shouldn't be wargaming (as it has been said in many of the threads on this site from people asking for free models.
But you don't want me to compare a whole army to Malifaux, so I'll tell you about my impulse buy into Malifaux, because I apparently game with Will Smith. So it was two summers ago, I had just heard of Malifaux through the Eternal Warriors Podcast while vacationing in SoCal, I may have even seen you there, who knows. So one afternoon I hopped in my private limo and drove to the a local gaming store. Walked in, and went an looked at the Malifaux stuff, knowing next to nothing about the game, other than it was kind of steampunk, and that it used cards instead of dice (that mechanic is what drew me in, my solid gold diamond encrusted dice suck). So I walked over to the small Malifaux section, saw a few of the boxes, and looked at a name I knew (Lady Justice). Picked her box up and the Rules Manual. Started looking at boxes Will Smith might like, based on what I knew he played (Cryx and Necrons). So I figured Ressers would be a nice adversary to my Lady Justice. I picked up two fate decks of the Ressers and Guilds colors, and walked up to the man and paid in a couple hundreds, ya know walking around cash. I walked out, called a guy, and bought place so I could always have a place to game with Willy. So there you have it, I bought 2 boxes, 2 fate decks, and the rules manual all because I had heard a single thing about the game that interested me, and it had nothing to do with the models really. I could have been screwed and hated the game, in fact after that first playthrough with my buddy, which you can read here, I got so many of the rules wrong and he was able to count the cards I had played, that it wasn't very fun, but I asked henchmen, and people I knew that played the game and I realized, "oh crap, I screwed up a lot." It wasn't originally, but the game has quickly become my favorite game to play.. *
* - Author's Note: I played with a skinny kid named Brandon in the basement of my dorm room during a summer that I worked at school, but I did really buy 2 boxes, 2 decks and the rules simply because the card mechanic interested me.
Edit: Now if you'll excuse me, I have gak to do, you're all free to continue to discuss this kickstarter, though I'm not sure why many of you are dedicating your time to this thread, it seems like a waste of time imo. brb, I hear the sun's shining this morning. Happy New Year!
Yeah I cancelled my pledge a few days ago, I've been seriously underwhelmed especially as this was my first kickstarter, it's been nothing but disappointment. I know one shouldn't really draw direct comparisons but I've always felt a little left out when I nervously avoided other projects that became nothing short of astounding as they reached the closing point, this is quite clearly not the case with this project. I was planning to get into Malifaux tabletop which is why I pledged in the first place, I love reading the lore behind a game and this was just a way to get even more of it for me. Although a chance to play an RPG wouldn't have gone amiss I sold all my DnD and WoD books not long after I finished uni as they were gathering dust. But after the way this has been handled I'm not sure I'll even get into the tabletop now if this is their attitude with that line also.
My money is moving over to Gates of Antares already managed to snag the early backer cheap pledge, so cross fingers I won't end up disappointed with my second kickstarter too.
but whether it will make much difference depends on how dependant they are on the KS to fund their project
and what wiggle room they actually have. Thinks presumably having been costed (and delivery scheduled) for this level of stuff
If they did splash out and throw more stuff at the project to boost it/keep existing backers that will take cash out of the project so might have to mean re-jigging the stretch goals to make them wider
(so you either loose some already gained, or the next one being pushed way out into the long grass).
The only real 'cost free' option is to add in 'dead' stock you have to hand like the convention models. But even that's a risk if it means you end up having to do another production run
(can their caster squeeze an extra run into the schedule ? If not can you afford to drop a model you planed to release to free up a slot to use etc)
Another 'minimal' cost option would be to offer digital versions of the next RPG book release to backers... but that risks future sales and shops deciding to give that one a miss (maybe release it 3-6 months after the paper product?)
Quite the contrary. I think what they could (should?) add is more RPG-material (adventures, sourcebooks, etc..), only delivered at a later date than the initial product.
That would not only provide incentives for (potential) backers, it would also:
1. Demonstrate that Wyrd's not gonna close their "RPG-Department" once the most profitable piece of any RPG, the core rules, are shipped.
2. Convince stores thinking about stocking the Malifaux RPG that the game has some miles to run
3. Convince post-Kickstarter shoppers (of the non-miniature playing kind) that buying the rulebook isn't going to leave them sitting on an unsupported RPG line.
What's the harm in saying something like "we're so overwhelmed with the support there, we'll do some additional adventures. But since we need to work it out first, it'll ship 6 month or a year later".
Seriously man, I get they give you little perks to cheerlead, but even still...
They don't give us perks to cheerlead. Forar and I are both Henchman, and he's been quite critical of this kickstarter. The difference is that I find very little fault with the value of what I'm getting in the kickstarter. I feel that my 125 is well spent, and I'll enjoy the game regardless, because I enjoy RPGs and have a handful of different books. Forar has to swallow 44 dollars of shipping to get his stuff shipped to Canada, which would make anyone cautious about the money their spending, and would hope that you can at least make your money back in backer rewards.
Have I ever!
I kid. I've always tried to coach my critiques constructively, but at the same time as a consumer without unlimited funding, I have to make choices like most any other gamer, and can't simply throw $160-270 at a KS and brush my hands of the matter, especially if I want to buy in on a terrain kickstarter, and am keeping an eye out for a Robotech one that might pop up in January, and have a possible Gencon trip to ponder, etc, etc. That extra $45 stings, and honestly if Santana continues to look unlikely I'm probably going to drop back down to the middle tier. As much as I'd like to hook my friend up with a copy of the books as well, he may well end up getting them cheaper at retail than I get them from the KS when accounting for said S&H, and I'm not sold on spending $50 for a second deck and the doll alone. I've been a firm advocate of the middle tiers; you either get two copies of the books and a little swag, or one set and some solid minis/swag. The Gaming Room one has needed attention since release, and thus far the only thing they've done to sweeten the deal is to give people a shot at Santana that's looking less and less likely as the days go by. It's not impossible that 138+ people will join that tier (above and beyond those that leave, as well), but needing an average of ~14 per day at this point, it's gonna be tough.
Also it continues to annoy me that I'm paying the same S&H as Australia. A lot of KS's and Ebay sellers do this. Doesn't annoy me any less. >.<
As for the "raffle" Mack mentioned, I have no doubt this is different than the GenCon Canon Campaign. For a few reasons
1) This seems kind of sprung to get people to back
2) The Canon Campaign Raffle will most likely take place once the backer surveys have been sent out to see if someone is going to GenCon or not.
3) KS tends to have to approve projects before they're put up, the Endless kickstarter was being put on hold by KS because OTL still owed a few people their figs (I was one of them).
I'll admit I'm a mix of hopeful and wary of the 'contest' or game or whatever we're going to see. I like the idea of throwing a puzzle to the community as a unique way of unlocking a bonus, perk or whatnot, outside of funding. Give all those people with idle hands and worn out F5 keys a chance to put that (rightfully) anxious energy to use. I'm curious to see how the 'individuals' will win things in a way that entices people in without turning people off by becoming more things (swag, opportunities, whatever) that they miss out on. I'm not hating on the idea that "someone might get something I don't, waaah!", simply noting that given the example of how much of a boost Miss T seemed to give and the giant slump that followed, having something else the community can grumble about might be problematic.
Same old Mack, brand new year! I realized yesterday that I didn't say there wouldn't be an update today, so I should probably do one! The Wyrd staff will be back in the offices tomorrow (currently we are split between different states), so tomorrow is the big day. We'll be looking at a variety of fun opptions for the last week of the Kickstarter, so hopefully those announcements can go in tomorrow's update.
As well, the latest Breach Side Chat will go up on youtube, and there will be a brand new episode airing tomorrow night, at 6pm pst. So don't forget to post your questions in the comment section with the tag line @BreachSide so that I'm sure to see them!
There has been quite a bit of discussion both in the comments section, as well on the forums, about a variety of topics, and today I thought I would bite into one and try to illuminate some of the process. In this case, the book plan.
Currently, Through The Breach is still being written. While a good chunk is ready for layout, and we should be able to start genuine internal testing reasonably soon, there are still vast swatches of both books that need to be written. On the book plan graphic, we list the page numbers that we can absolutely commit to at certain pledge levels. But those aren't steps, that's a slope. A book, when assembled, is a multiple of 4 pages, and page counts are never exact. When we post 200 pages, its likely the book will come in more around 208, or 212. I'm not going to cut things if its not crucial to do so.
When I look to add topics, like say Pursuits, having more pages lets me do that sort of thing in a much more robust way. There is a difference between putting the rules in the book, and giving a few key examples, than say, putting in an entire chapter of Advanced Pursuits with rules for modifying them.
The big thing to remember, is that we are trying to bring the fans into the design process as early as possible. This is a grand experiment for us. Nobody has built an RPG in this way. There is still a lot of work to be done. Locking in to exact page counts, without any wiggle room, would spell disaster. I need the flexibility to add things that we, as a community, build during the design process.
So when we look at the current design plan, it's just that... a plan. Sometimes plans need to adjust, in this case, updwards. Currently we are committed to 200 pages per book, that's 400 pages total (about the same size as most other RPGs). Those are minimums. I'm not going to cut important sections out if I can fit them in. I simply know, that without question, that's the minimum size the books will be. I know, that if we hit certain pledge levels, I'll have all the room I need to add topics in a robust way.
As we proceed towards completion, I might discover something totally new, something we didn't think about yet. A fan might have a brilliant idea, or playtesting might bring to light that a system needs more pages. We'll need that flexibility.
Anyhoo, I've prattled on long enough. Tomorrow is the big day, everyone is back, and we have a lot to discuss from your comments and suggestions over the last week. I've managed to build a damage system I'm pretty happy with, as well as a few other things, while working at home... but it's going to be nice to be back in the office with all my coworkers!
And again, Happy New Years!
Huh, I didn't expect an update today, and it's nice to have some of the ... 'heated and passionate discussion' recognized, even if in just about the most politely diplomatic way possible.
As noted before, Mack Martin is a PR viking, and whatever they are paying him, it should probably go up.
It's a strange bit of an update, isn't it? It basically seems to be conceding what everyone has been saying, that the "plan" doesn't really correspond directly to what they are actually going to produce... which makes perfect sense, really. Making the books sub-par for the sake of keeping in line with what they claimed they could do in the campaign would be cutting off their nose to spite their face.
All they need to do is say something like "Mack has been working like a Neverborn, it looks like we're going to have X after all!" or something more punny. Not up enough on the lore for the exact wording.
Some of this is pure hyperbole though; "The big thing to remember, is that we are trying to bring the fans into the design process as early as possible. This is a grand experiment for us. Nobody has built an RPG in this way."
Seriously? So many things wrong there...
1) Wizards of the Coast says "Hi". That's just silly, "Nobody has built an RPG in this way"? The largest name in RPGs has been engaged in exactly this.
2) By his own admission, "While a good chunk is ready for layout, and we should be able to start genuine internal testing reasonably soon, there are still vast swatches of both books that need to be written." So... what exactly will people be able to influence in the design? The forums won't be up for some time, they are going to start internal testing and it rather sounds like the mechanics are set.
As many have pointed out, designing an RPG is a long, painstaking process. In order for them to have a chance of meeting their deadlines, they have to be well along. Being well along is mutually exclusive with bringing people in "as early as possible".
A good soldier, but that he is even being put into this position is simply sad.
Buzzsaw wrote: As a 4venger, I take no position on the merits of D&DNext, heh, I only point out its existence.
Ouch, I'm sorry. There are complimentary tissues over by the 3.5 and earlier editions sitting in the corner
I like the update, it does serve to answer a lot of the complaints, which shows that at least someone at Wyrd is taking note. And Forar is right, Mack is a god danged beast trying to fix the PR for this campaign.
cincydooley wrote: I don't understand why he's the one that's doing it. Don't they have someone who's job title is PR Guy?
Probably? I'm trying to remember all the people that I know of that work at wyrd. I know there's Nathan, Eric, Justin, Mack, Casey, and Jac... Those are the people that I know of that work in the office. There's also Ratty and Keltheos who do writing, rules testing, and in Ratty's case a lot of coding and rules marshaling. I'm sure they have a PR guy, I'm just not sure who it is.
It might also be a case of the fact that Mack just isn't using vacation time over the holidays like others are, and as such is taking over those duties.
cincydooley wrote: I don't understand why he's the one that's doing it. Don't they have someone who's job title is PR Guy?
Wyrd is still a pretty small company in any industry but the gaming industry. With a company this size most people wear more then one hat.
From what I understand Jac is the one who's been answering comments and sending out the daily "update". Overall I've found the updates that Mack has done to much better not just in content, but excitment about the project. I've never met Jac and she could be the worlds nicest person but I just don't get that she's that interested in this project.
It's going to be interesting to see just what Wyrd has up it's sleeve for the final weekish of their project. In my opinion it's still not to late for them to fix things.
One of the oddest issues is related to having Mack do the updates: the start difference in interaction in this campaign versus... well, pretty much any campaign I have seen.
Looking at those numbers, it's rather amazing: there is an order of magnitude(!) of difference between the number of comments on KD:M and Through the Breach. Even more amazing is the fact that these is a similar order of magnitude difference between the number of comments by the creators: Wyrd has so few comments it's simply astonishing. It's all well and good for Wyrd to hold the posture that they don't want to harm retail store sales or become a bonanza, but what possible excuse is there for the incredible scarcity of communication?
Consider, even with this depressing level of increase, this campaign will net them something like $150,000 for 45 days of campaigning. They couldn't afford to have anyone even part-time answering comments and concerns on a project that is making them more then $3k a day? There is not running a normal campaign, and there is what can only be called disinterest.
*N.B., I did not manually count the creator comments, the number (#) is the number of total comments on their use page. Thus there is no doubt some degree of false positives, but it seems reasonable to presume the majority of comments are related to their own campaigns.
Techincally there is a lower percentage of comments on the Kingdom Death KS coming from the creator, roughly around 3%. Through the Breach comes in around 9%. I get where your going with this though, and I do have an answer for you. Simpley put the creator of this project isn't the one commenting on peoples comments, which makes it different then any of the other kickstarters listed.
I get what your saying though, but great communication is never something I've credited Wyrd with.
Only a few more hours until we get to see just what their going to change.
Catyrpelius wrote: Techincally there is a lower percentage of comments on the Kingdom Death KS coming from the creator, roughly around 3%. Through the Breach comes in around 9%. I get where your going with this though, and I do have an answer for you. Simpley put the creator of this project isn't the one commenting on peoples comments, which makes it different then any of the other kickstarters listed.
I get what your saying though, but great communication is never something I've credited Wyrd with.
Only a few more hours until we get to see just what their going to change.
Oh, it's not so much about the % of the whole that I think is important, it's the level of interaction, the feeling on the part of the backers being connected with the company. It can be an infectious thing: KD doesn't have so many comments because Poots is always commenting, it has so many because people know that he's listening and will comment if he can/needs to. TtB, by contrast, is starved of attention, which fosters a certain attitude in the comments... and even in the official thread on their forums.
It's not so much that the creator needs to be constantly interacting with their backers, but some degree of responsiveness is appreciated, and helps to prime the community. Poots' occasional comments and reactions reap a dividend, in the involvement and emotional investment of the community.
The conduct of Wyrd is such that it seems they are avoiding interacting with their backers. I am somewhat confused by what you mean by "the creator of this project isn't the one commenting on peoples comments"? Do you mean someone from Wyrd other then the official Wyrd Miniatures profile is responding? I wasn't aware this was the case. Or do you mean that they have chosen the route of responding only in the daily briefings?
I remember it being said early on in the project that Jac is pretty much in charge of the daily update and ansering questions in the comments, thats why its only done during the week and only during buisness hours.
Kingdom Death has alot more backers then Through the Breech does, and in support of Through the Breach alot of the comments were directed at Mac and his Breachside Chats. I'm starting to think that the majority of the people backing KD are hoping for another windfall resale product like zombiecide, but that's neither here nor there.
I do agree that the Through the Breach KS isn't generating much in the way of feedback as far as the comments section though, but the comments section of that KS isn't a warm or constructive place most of the time.
However, the lack of info and interaction has been at the heart of some of that negativity.
An oft quoted example are the "multi-post minis", which led to a flurry of speculation with narry a peep from anyone officially through most of it. Weeks (as I recall it) later we got the sprue concept art for both, and were astounded to realize that one sprue could feasibly make up to 3 different figures. That's awesome! So much bickering and negativity would've been avoided if that info had been made available from the start, both in terms of the images present and someone pointing out what they intended to do.
It's not their job to police every last comment on their chat wall for the campaign, but surely someone could've stepped in to correct blind assumptions and misinformation, rather than letting it fester.
Unless they didn't actually know, and the "3 figures sprues" were pulled together in response to that negativity.
Which would indicate that they weren't fully prepared, either to release accurate info on the pending products, or for the overwhelming barrage of information the community would seek out.
I think Mack has snapped... I read the update and went what the gak? Quoted below.
Salutations!
I want Santanas in your hands. The guys here in the office are asking, "Mack, why are you twitching?" They blame the case of energy drinks I down on a daily basis, but I blame my need to get Santanas out there.
So, what can we do? Well, I'm going to start off by thanking our Secret Reward level backers again. They really put a shoulder behind this project and for that, we're going to add a Santana for every Secret Level backer. This is in addition to the one they could earn if we all hit the Santana Claus Stretch Goal.
But that's not all. It's time to achieve Santana Claus, so we're going to play a little game. You'll notice the Ye Old Back-O-Meter One Thousand down below. That tracks our progress towards Santana Claus. I'll post a new one every day. You'll also notice some new ways to move towards 500!
First, there is the current Game Room backers. they got us a chunk of the way there. Every Game Room back counts as a point, just like they do now.
Second, we want you all to appreciate our Secret backers as much as we do, so they count for another two points!
But lastly, we need to push those numbers higher... how can we do that? Well, we just posted a Through the Breach Kickstarter image on Facebook and Twitter. For every 5 Shares on Facebook that it gets, it counts as a point. For every 10 Likes or Retweets that the image gets it counts as a point. That's all it takes! So go sociamalize some media!
I can hear you asking now, "But Mack, you ruggedly handsom devil, the Ye Old Back-O-Meter 1000 goes up to One Thousand, what happens after 500?"
Well, I'll need something to talk a bout in a later update, now won't I? Muwahaha. And we'll have more games to come!
Now I must run off to get ready for our next Breach Side Chat tonight at 6pm! Hope to see you there!
Knowing full well that they were not going to reach 500 upper-tier backers, they contrived a silly gimmick to ensure the people expecting a Santana get one before they drop out.
They could have offered something more tangible like an additional male/female character sprue ot the parts of the book they planned and won't include. Instead, Wyrd is rewarding people for sharing the KS on the Twitterbook...
As much as I love Malifaux, what the hell is Wyrd doing here? They really, really don't get it.
Absolutionis wrote: Knowing full well that they were not going to reach 500 upper-tier backers, they contrived a silly gimmick to ensure the people expecting a Santana get one before they drop out.
They could have offered something more tangible like an additional male/female character sprue ot the parts of the book they planned and won't include. Instead, Wyrd is rewarding people for sharing the KS on the Twitterbook...
As much as I love Malifaux, what the hell is Wyrd doing here? They really, really don't get it.
This is the first time with this kickstarter that I've actively gone, wtf are they doing? I'm most likely not changing my pledge, but I shared, liked, and retweeted. It took 2 seconds to do all of that. If it gets people their santanas, it's the least I could do.
Wyrd seems astoundingly stubborn in trying to make the $225 level the ideal place, but this does nothing for me, a backer who isn't interested in dropping that sort of cash unless something is truly amazing.
If they really wanted to motivate their base, something that included all of their backers, or at least the $125+ ones, seems obvious, but I don't expect late game social media to monetize very well, either way. I'm kind of curious if they're going to get the 500ish hits they're looking for, would be pretty awkward if they don't. edit, forgot to add-- If they made the $125 level more worthwhile, they'd both be motivating more people involved and be more likely for later game people to jump on or increase their pledges ($125 entry is easier than $225, and $65 increase is easier than $100-165). I still don't get why they think that the $225 level should be the sweet spot. I'm not saying I'm some sort of marketing prophet, but it seems like common sense...
In short, adding to the chorus of "I like Wyrd, but..."
BTW, I started reading the post out loud... it sounds really awkward, in a kind of anguished way.
RiTides wrote: I actually thought that was a pretty nice post on his part. I genuinely like this guy Mack. Can't say the same for the rest of 'em!
I've met most of the Wyrd guys, they're all genuinely nice people, and Mack has been a fething trooper posting this stuff, but I think we finally broke him
RiTides wrote: I actually thought that was a pretty nice post on his part. I genuinely like this guy Mack. Can't say the same for the rest of 'em!
Mack seems like good people,and, outside of some weird stuff in this campaign, the rest of the Wyrd team has seemed genuine, too, but the most recent post just sounds somewhere between confused and forced...
I'm at a loss. I am not even sure what that update is intended to accomplish.
Drum up 2 things...
1) Pledges for the 225 and 500 levels
2) Advertising for the Kickstarter as it heads towards it's final push.
Heh, I was being slightly facile, one can see the hope is to motivate the backers to spread the word, it's all just so... sad.
Yesterday Mack expounds that; "Tomorrow is the big day, everyone is back, and we have a lot to discuss from your comments and suggestions over the last week" and in turn they present... that?
If anything, I'm almost outraged on behalf of Mr. Martin: he's not running the campaign, we know that, so he has to soldier along. To put him out there, to answer the complaints of low value, of poor communication and people not believing the posted book plan, to answer those complaints and no doubt others I'm forgetting, with yet another gimmick designed to maybe salvage what was obviously intended to be an irresistible sweetener... outrageous.
The behavior of the management of this campaign is seriously impacting my impression of Wyrd as a company.
i believe someone said it either in the comments section or even this thread. That wyrd has hit a limit on their customers for the kick starter if they really wanted to get that goal higher they would have "add ons" so that existing backers could add some revenue to the project..
The last day people tend to surge forward hoping to catch a deal but i think on the last day this kick starter will be lucky to reach a surge past 200k.
im wondering for how many people is this the first kick starter project they backed?
If the 225 level wasn't such a wasteful POS, I'd gladly do it. I can't justify spending 225 for THAT when for only $75 more another KS gives me two items for free that outstripe the value.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Come to think of it, this update feels more like a "oh god we better make sure those folks at $225 get Santana so they don't drop their pledges" move than a "lets get more backers" move.
cincydooley wrote: Come to think of it, this update feels more like a "oh god we better make sure those folks at $225 get Santana so they don't drop their pledges" move than a "lets get more backers" move.
I wish I could claim you're being to cynical but...
cincydooley wrote: If the 225 level wasn't such a wasteful POS, I'd gladly do it. I can't justify spending 225 for THAT when for only $75 more another KS gives me two items for free that outstripe the value.
This touches on something that really hit me today, when yet another amazing thing was added to... another campaign. Contrary to certain accusations, my criticism has always been geared towards the hope the campaign would eventually remedy the things I saw wrong with it. That is, eventually the value would be there (as I hoped some time ago). I've been interested off and on with the aesthetic of some of Wyrd's sculpts, especially the new plastic kits, and hoped to eventually be presented with "a deal I can't refuse".
The problem is that things aren't standing still: other campaigns are happening, end of year sales are happening, and while I've been waiting and hoping for a bargain to materialize, the money that might have gone to Wyrd has done gone away...
So what would have been a good deal a month ago isn't enough, not for me.
Honestly, one of the biggest problems with their campaign is that they value their stuff at the same level as some of their most rabid fans: they really seem to think that Santana is worth $100 or so. As a collectable miniature for a huge Wyrd fan, perhaps. But as something to attract new blood? I'd like one, but it's not worth more then $15-25, because to me it's just a cool female miniature, and that's what I'd pay for such a thing. I said that in the comments section on the campaign and was told in slightly broken English I should GTFO.
Right now it seems Wyrd has given up on attracting new blood, they're just trying to extract as much as they can from the backers they already have, cannibalizing existing pledges at lower levels trying to move them to $225 or $500.
As a point of fact, let's note that the previous Wyrd KS, Evil Baby Orphanage, ended with 2,263 backers. Through the Breach currently has 1,252, just over 1,000 fewer. That this campaign hasn't even attracted the people that pledged in that campaign should be a huge warning sign, but it's one that is very unlikely to be seen I fear.
That said, EBO had a vastly lower buy-in, making it much easier for people to throw a little disposable income at. It also didn't happen around the holidays, which may have protected it from other credit card related realities.
Note: I'm just saying, they're not perfectly analogous. Different products, different scope, different communities even (with hefty overlap as there may be).
Personally, I'm glad to see they're doing something. Even if that ~1k they gained really just became an extra 300-400, it covered up that unsightly -700-800'ish that was showing for a while there.
As a fan and a critic of the campaign I have often lamented that going from the middle tier to the top cost $111 for a second set of books, a doll and a deck. Sell the books off for $60 and I'm left with the doll and the deck for $50. Not worth it. Throw in Santana however, and I'm highly intrigued. While I'm not one who values such things at $100-200 as they went for on ebay, I can easily peg her at $50'ish, sell off the deck and consider the doll a freebie I keep around for the hell of it. It's not something that makes me go WOAH THIS IS HAAAAAWT, but at least progress is being made again.
As of the writing of this post, the TtB image has 120 shares and 115 likes, and it's been retweeted 40 times, which works out to another 39-40 "points". Eyeballing the little backer thermometer, it seems we're around the 430'ish mark, meaning that it's quite possible we'll hit the remaining points by tomorrow night.
Is it a bit silly, jumping through these hoops rather than 'admitting they were wrong'? Would it be better to have a "come to jeebus" moment and admit "mea culpa!"? Perhaps. But they haven't, so as someone who does intend to remain a backer, I can only hope this does inspire at least some forward momentum in these last few days. Looks like we're (at the top levels) gettin' Santanas. Yay! Add the hanging tree in and I'll be all the happier.
Dropped my pledge as my friend who I was holding it for isn't able to make up the cash for it. Sad to see it come to this, as I really do love the Malifaux background as well as the miniatures game.
I can understand wanting to get the word passed around for the game, but without a good reason for people to back the project now (considering they won't get Miss T or even the Penny Dreadful), plus funding totals staying low, I don't know how good it will be.
I really did want this to succeed. Just seems like those who are in charge are determined to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory (or a great kickstarter end total with a fantastic product being produced) because of some self-ascribed idea of their way being the best for the outcome of this. I really can't fathom it to be honest.
cincydooley wrote: Come to think of it, this update feels more like a "oh god we better make sure those folks at $225 get Santana so they don't drop their pledges" move than a "lets get more backers" move.
I wish I could claim you're being to cynical but...
This is exactly what it seems like. Hard any people signed up for the 225 level when they announced Santana, so they are back peddling so tet won't loss more people.
I have followed about 15 recent Kickstarters in the past year and I believe this is the only one that stopped dead in its tracks less than half way through and actually started to steadily loss backers. You would think that a company that has run 2 successful Kickstarters so far, would have a better understanding of the reality of these things. It really seems like they tried to rewrite a proven method of success and have failed miserably.
It's really a shame, as I love Malifaux and the setting. I am still supporting this thing, but still only at the 60 level. I would up it to 125 if they actually tried. As it is, I am fairly certain I will be staying right where I am.
Fenriswulf wrote: (considering they won't get Miss T or even the Penny Dreadful), plus funding totals staying low, I don't know how good it will be.
What happened to the "early backer thank you rewards"? Am I wrong in remembering that these were supposed to be something weekly? I think the second one is still going on, either way...?
Wow. The latest update sounds almost like it was written by Gil from the Simpsons. I'm guessing Mr. Martin wants some coffee, but the coffee's for closers.
I started reading the thread because I was interested in the Malifaux universe and was looking forward to a Dark Heresy-esque smorgasboard of fluff and flavor. I kept reading it for the outrage. And I'll continue reading it for the sweet, sweet schadenfreude.
The behavior of the management of this campaign is seriously impacting my impression of Wyrd as a company.
It has for me. It transformed me from a potential customer who heard a lot of great things about Wyrd into a cackling vulture who loves to see them fail.
It's like they are trying to "re-invent" the 'Kickstarter-logic' all over again, but not use the one Kickstarter provides.
Instead of backers itching to see the prominently displayed total pledged amount inch closer and closer to goal X (and usually squeaking with gleeful joy all over the internet when Stretch Goal X is achieved), they are now supposed to itch seeing Wyrd's own Backer-O-Meter inch closer and closer to a goal X?
I'm still a bit lost about this chart they've put out?
Is it just "share this to cook the books and get a Santana to people who wanted one as we are under 500 actual pledges" or is it something more than that?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Wow. The latest update sounds almost like it was written by Gil from the Simpsons. I'm guessing Mr. Martin wants some coffee, but the coffee's for closers.
I started reading the thread because I was interested in the Malifaux universe and was looking forward to a Dark Heresy-esque smorgasboard of fluff and flavor. I kept reading it for the outrage. And I'll continue reading it for the sweet, sweet schadenfreude.
The behavior of the management of this campaign is seriously impacting my impression of Wyrd as a company.
It has for me. It transformed me from a potential customer who heard a lot of great things about Wyrd into a cackling vulture who loves to see them fail.
So true, I feel the same. I've heard positive stuff about the game and was at some point in the past choosing between Malifaux and Infinity. Now I know I won't ever touch Malifaux, and some of the banter in this topic is indeed awesomely depressing
Is it just "share this to cook the books and get a Santana to people who wanted one as we are under 500 actual pledges" or is it something more than that?
Yes, it's that and that's the (selfish) problem right there: What's in it for me, the tabletop level pledger? Because I'm sure as hell not going to up my pledge for a few reasons.
So true, I feel the same. I've heard positive stuff about the game and was at some point in the past choosing between Malifaux and Infinity. Now I know I won't ever touch Malifaux, and some of the banter in this topic is indeed awesomely depressing
I do enjoy lots of things about Malifaux, but Wyrd seem to be having a bit of a personality change from when I first started the game a couple of years ago. Whether its a "we are bigger now, so have to act that way" change or just me, I don't know. Sort of the way I'm feeling about them though and this KS is reinforcing that for me.
Doubt I'll expand my Arcanists beyond what they are at the moment, which is quite a bit. Actually, I've not painted Kaeris yet and forgot about the box I've sitting there.
Now this is being too cynical. The figures are great and the miniatures game is good, too. Don't pledge if you don't see any value but also don't let this kickstarter affect how you view the Malifaux miniature game.
Now this is being too cynical. The figures are great and the miniatures game is good, too. Don't pledge if you don't see any value but also don't let this kickstarter affect how you view the Malifaux miniature game.
The thing is, projects such as this Kickstarter are also there to expand the brand and promote the company. I have seen how the company is run and how it responds to problems, and I do not need to get into a mess like that, I already collect Space Marines and got enough of corporate drama
Buzzsaw wrote: If anything, I'm almost outraged on behalf of Mr. Martin: he's not running the campaign, we know that, so he has to soldier along. To put him out there, to answer the complaints of low value, of poor communication and people not believing the posted book plan, to answer those complaints and no doubt others I'm forgetting, with yet another gimmick designed to maybe salvage what was obviously intended to be an irresistible sweetener... outrageous.
The behavior of the management of this campaign is seriously impacting my impression of Wyrd as a company.
Okay, that makes more sense. I was just wondering at that reaction, since clearly people can't blame the guy for doing his job (as he's definitely doing!). To be upset on his behalf is different. He's actually salvaged Wyrd from "Don't touch with a 10-foot pole" to "Wow, LCB has always looked pretty awesome to me, hmmmmmm" for me after the start of the campaign did the opposite.
I'd actually be interested in this game (not this Kickstarter) if folks near me played. As it is, I'll definitely keep an eye out if they do.
Now this is being too cynical. The figures are great and the miniatures game is good, too. Don't pledge if you don't see any value but also don't let this kickstarter affect how you view the Malifaux miniature game.
The thing is, projects such as this Kickstarter are also there to expand the brand and promote the company. I have seen how the company is run and how it responds to problems, and I do not need to get into a mess like that, I already collect Space Marines and got enough of corporate drama
The majority of the time, Wyrd has very little issues with their product. The game is balanced with the exception of a few outliers that are being reigned in (Hamelin, I'm looking at you, you rat loving so and so), or given the tools to help the old fogies like some Book 1 masters compete with "better" masters from other factions (ressers are notorious for needing the boost because a lot of their stuff requires dead bodies on the board, which doesn't really happen until end game). But within the past year (basically when I started being a henchman and looking at the company, etc... more than I did before that), Wyrd has had 3 "snafus". The first is GenCon shipping, which they apparently have issues with every year. I want to liken it to Privateer Press's shipping issues like 2 years ago. They usually have the stock, it's just a matter of people around the world ordering stuff when the majority of the staff and crew are in Indy, gak's gonna get backlogged. The second is Avatar Hoffman. aHoffman is currently the only model from book 3 that hasn't been released. He was supposed to be released in November, but there were some unexplained issues. I'm sure it had to do with the casting of the model. I'm assuming the large construct that carries hoff is gonna be like aMcMourning's Simulacrum 29 and is a giant piece of resin. The third has been the mismanagement of the kickstarter. Everything else Wyrd has done has been top notch. Their first world wide campaign went off without a hitch, and was well received by the community, and Kaeris should be getting her Alt sculpt soon. Barring the Hungering Darkness's model, the new plastics have been well received minus the fact you can't get the models individually (but I believe I'm the only one bitching about that lol). And Book 4 with the inclusion of a 6th faction as well as the advancement of the story has been well received. Wyrd makes very few missteps in their production schedule.
Don't knock the game just because a single aspect of their company faltered. I have no doubt, based on Mack's previous works, that this will be a good game. I have no doubts that the KS rewards will be fulfilled. I do have doubts that this will garner much more money than it already has, and that saddens me a bit.
RiTides wrote:
Buzzsaw wrote: If anything, I'm almost outraged on behalf of Mr. Martin: he's not running the campaign, we know that, so he has to soldier along. To put him out there, to answer the complaints of low value, of poor communication and people not believing the posted book plan, to answer those complaints and no doubt others I'm forgetting, with yet another gimmick designed to maybe salvage what was obviously intended to be an irresistible sweetener... outrageous.
The behavior of the management of this campaign is seriously impacting my impression of Wyrd as a company.
Okay, that makes more sense. I was just wondering at that reaction, since clearly people can't blame the guy for doing his job (as he's definitely doing!). To be upset on his behalf is different. He's actually salvaged Wyrd from "Don't touch with a 10-foot pole" to "Wow, LCB has always looked pretty awesome to me, hmmmmmm" for me after the start of the campaign did the opposite.
I'd actually be interested in this game (not this Kickstarter) if folks near me played. As it is, I'll definitely keep an eye out if they do.
Steve, you obviously don't pay attention to the DCM AdeptiCon thread Gym plays Malifaux, she's one member of our Cake Tournament Team, I need to give her a refresher on the rules via Vassal, and wouldn't mind giving you one too at the same time.
A secret backer is the "unlisted" pledge level for those that back 500 dollars or more. Idk why they didn't just list it in normal rewards, but it's the 225 dollar level plus one of the following three rewards:
1) You get to play in the Canon Campaign with Mack at GenCon
2) You get art of your character added to the book
3) You get your Hannah model professionally painted.
For every 250 dollars beyond 500 you can add one more of those rewards to your pledge. It's down on the main page, probably by the bottom at this point.
Simply put the update wasn't quite like I was expecting. I won't go so far as to say its a bad thing, but at the same time I wouldn't say it's a good thing. It's really something they should have been doing from the begining.
It's going to be interesting to see the rest of what they have planned for this week as originally Mack made it sound like we'd be seeing more then one thing.
I think this campaign would have been much better off if Mack handeled the updates from the beginning. Who ever started off doing them came off as cold and uncaring. Mack however gets me excited to play the game.
So true, I feel the same. I've heard positive stuff about the game and was at some point in the past choosing between Malifaux and Infinity. Now I know I won't ever touch Malifaux, and some of the banter in this topic is indeed awesomely depressing
I do enjoy lots of things about Malifaux, but Wyrd seem to be having a bit of a personality change from when I first started the game a couple of years ago. Whether its a "we are bigger now, so have to act that way" change or just me, I don't know. Sort of the way I'm feeling about them though and this KS is reinforcing that for me.
Doubt I'll expand my Arcanists beyond what they are at the moment, which is quite a bit. Actually, I've not painted Kaeris yet and forgot about the box I've sitting there.
+2 to this.
Not only have they lost thier minds, they have lost the skull that the brain recently vacated. Pesonality change is a nice way to put it.
It started for me with the change to plastic, and the increase in models price. THEN we go to the holier then thou KS project of horror that is mutating into a WTF moment of epic proportions.
I have the original book, two or three gangs, and was on the way to get a few more before the train wreck. NOW? I'm good with my own couple of factions, and am more or less going to paint those up and sell them off.
When they started out, Wierd was "One of the boyz". You could have some reactions to some of the stuff, have a few ooohs, and ahhs with the new stuff coming out almost on a regular basis, but then as the helltrain flew off the tracks, some of the standards that they established have slacked off to the point of average and the sculpts and chara cterization of the established characters has been comprimised to "JUST SELL stuffs".
Is it just "share this to cook the books and get a Santana to people who wanted one as we are under 500 actual pledges" or is it something more than that?
Yes, it's that and that's the (selfish) problem right there: What's in it for me, the tabletop level pledger? Because I'm sure as hell not going to up my pledge for a few reasons.
And to this, seriously?
That selfishness is going BOTH ways on this one.
Wierd is just playing to the masses and mentality that KS has evolved to a science. It isn't nessesarily selfishness, either- Its sales, even if they all want to amuse themselves with the illusion that "KS is not a sales site..."
Look at the way this thing is evolving like the preverbial box of cats? People want one thing, the project morphs into what they want. the other people want something different, they get that as well. All with the added charm of- We're doing it because we love our fans!!!( nevermind thier money!)
Grot 6 wrote: It started for me with the change to plastic, and the increase in models price.
I must be confused, where did the model prices go up? Yes Jakob Lynch's box is on the high end (possibly one of the most expensive boxes), but all the new plastics are decently priced. The metal rats seem to be gakky in price, but everything else is right around where the metal prices were.
When they started out, Wyrd was "One of the boyz". You could have some reactions to some of the stuff, have a few ooohs, and ahhs with the new stuff coming out almost on a regular basis, but then as the helltrain flew off the tracks, some of the standards that they established have slacked off to the point of average and the sculpts and characterization of the established characters has been compromised to "JUST SELL" stuffs.
Again, I'm interested in examples of this. I honestly would love to hear your opinions on this.
I suppose avatars could be seen as something which increases the cost of having your options available significantly... If you play in hypercompetitive meta and cheap is a higher priority than varied to you?
Bolognesus wrote: I suppose avatars could be seen as something which increases the cost of having your options available significantly... If you play in hypercompetitive meta and cheap is a higher priority than varied to you?
From personal experiance with the tournaments I've run at various conventions the avatars aren't that common except for a few masters. The majority of the winners I've had have either not included the avatar in their crew or never manifested it.
Bolognesus wrote: I suppose avatars could be seen as something which increases the cost of having your options available significantly... If you play in hypercompetitive meta and cheap is a higher priority than varied to you?
Except that in rare cases, Seamus and Ramos, the Avatar isn't worth the cost in money or points spent to take. Most of the avatars change the playstyle of the master, and it's not always "for the better". aRamos and aSeamus improve what the master already does. aRamos gets better at making spiders and electrical creations, and aSeamus gets better at the terrifying game (and becomes somewhat of a melee brute in the process). Most avatars are lateral jumps. You go from doing one thing really well to doing something else really well. aSonnia goes from direct damage fire spells to burning auras that damage things around her. aPandora goes from being the mobile little Wp master she is to an immobile center of board controller that does just as much damage as her regular form (you just give up the ability to push her 4 inches every time she wins a Wp duel), but you do get a free version of Candy. aRasputina becomes a melee survivor and loses most of her spell casting abilities, etc... With few exceptions, Avatars aren't auto-includes and they're not "epic" versions of the masters. They're simply another tool with which to play the game .
Though I have heard aZoraida is a beast, but I haven't seen her on the board lol
So true, I feel the same. I've heard positive stuff about the game and was at some point in the past choosing between Malifaux and Infinity. Now I know I won't ever touch Malifaux, and some of the banter in this topic is indeed awesomely depressing
I do enjoy lots of things about Malifaux, but Wyrd seem to be having a bit of a personality change from when I first started the game a couple of years ago. Whether its a "we are bigger now, so have to act that way" change or just me, I don't know. Sort of the way I'm feeling about them though and this KS is reinforcing that for me.
.
This is it for me. The personality change that's happened has been really....odd. To me, it started at GenCon 2012 when they were much less receptive than they seemed to be in the past. It was peculiar. They just seem more....distant. When I asked to get my copy of EBO at GenCon, it just seemed like it was a big old hassle and that I was bothering them quite a bit (and bear in mind, I had a giant Wyrd bag in my hand). It was really frustrating to me.
I was excited to find out Mack was going to be working with them, because every single interaction I've ever had with him has been wholly positive. Maybe he can help to infuse the positive energy that seems to be lacking.
And here's where my dilema lies:
First, I feel a bit slighted because apparently my patronage, with it's critiques of questionable practices and the want of "more" from a company I (used to) quite like seems far less valued than the patronage of the blind fanatic. That's frustrating, as I'd wager I have as much invested in the game as many of those other folks, if not more (been collecting since Origins 2009 when we first saw the game, have 2 full factions in Arcanists and Guild and about half of the Neverborn & Outcasts).
Second, I actually really like the game, and my wife likes the game. The chances of my giving up easily on a wargame my wife is willing to play is slim to none. She more or less hates miniature wargaming, but likes Malifaux. Ain't gonna quit that.
So I'm at a crossroads. There's really no reason for me to back, as the Hannah model will be made available elsewhere, but I'm still holding on waiting for them to give me a reason. But they just won't. Couple that with the fact that we haven't heard high or low of the stretch goals from EBO and the strange new attitude Wyrd is presenting and I'm having a hard time thinking my money is going to stick.
I'll wait until the last few hours to see if they change my mind, but man....it's not looking like they will, and that disappoints me a lot.
Bolognesus wrote: I suppose avatars could be seen as something which increases the cost of having your options available significantly... If you play in hypercompetitive meta and cheap is a higher priority than varied to you?
Except that in rare cases, Seamus and Ramos, the Avatar isn't worth the cost in money or points spent to take. Most of the avatars change the playstyle of the master, and it's not always "for the better". aRamos and aSeamus improve what the master already does. aRamos gets better at making spiders and electrical creations, and aSeamus gets better at the terrifying game (and becomes somewhat of a melee brute in the process). Most avatars are lateral jumps. You go from doing one thing really well to doing something else really well. aSonnia goes from direct damage fire spells to burning auras that damage things around her. aPandora goes from being the mobile little Wp master she is to an immobile center of board controller that does just as much damage as her regular form (you just give up the ability to push her 4 inches every time she wins a Wp duel), but you do get a free version of Candy. aRasputina becomes a melee survivor and loses most of her spell casting abilities, etc... With few exceptions, Avatars aren't auto-includes and they're not "epic" versions of the masters. They're simply another tool with which to play the game .
Though I have heard aZoraida is a beast, but I haven't seen her on the board lol
Crap, ninja'd by Caty
Oh I wasn't saying it's actually the case - just that when I first looked into it, it kind of felt like that to me, too.
...Of course then I realized providing more options is generally a good thing - if it needs to be as cheap as possible there's always chess
The price per model well, I got a bit of sticker shock looking at some of the individual model boxes at the FLGS - then again, €30ish for a fancy model isn't that far out - and I believe those bigger models especially are a relatively recent thing?
Then again, from someone who trumps WM/H of all things as the right kind of pricing I can't see how even the most expensive malifaux models could even make him blink...
(Let's just say that the price tag on those bane thralls still makes me wince - and I didn't even pony up for them in the end )
I'd actually be interested in this game (not this Kickstarter) if folks near me played. As it is, I'll definitely keep an eye out if they do.
Steve, you obviously don't pay attention to the DCM AdeptiCon thread Gym plays Malifaux, she's one member of our Cake Tournament Team, I need to give her a refresher on the rules via Vassal, and wouldn't mind giving you one too at the same time.
I read that as RiTides would potentially be interested in playing the RPG, but not participating in the RPG kickstarter. I did just PM him with a little info. Yes, we will have a local nexus of players when the game comes out, but I'm not the FM, so it isn't up to me who will sit at the table.
Bolognesus wrote: I suppose avatars could be seen as something which increases the cost of having your options available significantly... If you play in hypercompetitive meta and cheap is a higher priority than varied to you?
The price per model well, I got a bit of sticker shock looking at some of the individual model boxes at the FLGS - then again, €30ish for a fancy model isn't that far out - and I believe those bigger models especially are a relatively recent thing?
Then again, from someone who trumps WM/H of all things as the right kind of pricing I can't see how even the most expensive malifaux models could even make him blink...
(Let's just say that the price tag on those bane thralls still makes me wince - and I didn't even pony up for them in the end )
(nice one on that sig quote, btw. original )
Oh yeah, feel you there. Hello Trollbloods Tuffalos. $110 of yikes! And then you have to green stuff all the gaps
I think the Malifaux models are priced about right for the market. I just got a Lady J avatar finally because I got it on FRP's clearance sale. That model is overpriced at $45. I got Demo Willie from that sale as well, and I also feel he's a bit overpriced at $20. Just a very thin, small model, and when the GW plastic blisters are going for $13-$20, I think he's a bit on the high side. Everything else I have I've been fairly okay with the pricing, I think.
Bolognesus wrote: I suppose avatars could be seen as something which increases the cost of having your options available significantly... If you play in hypercompetitive meta and cheap is a higher priority than varied to you?
Except that in rare cases, Seamus and Ramos, the Avatar isn't worth the cost in money or points spent to take. Most of the avatars change the playstyle of the master, and it's not always "for the better". aRamos and aSeamus improve what the master already does. aRamos gets better at making spiders and electrical creations, and aSeamus gets better at the terrifying game (and becomes somewhat of a melee brute in the process). Most avatars are lateral jumps. You go from doing one thing really well to doing something else really well. aSonnia goes from direct damage fire spells to burning auras that damage things around her. aPandora goes from being the mobile little Wp master she is to an immobile center of board controller that does just as much damage as her regular form (you just give up the ability to push her 4 inches every time she wins a Wp duel), but you do get a free version of Candy. aRasputina becomes a melee survivor and loses most of her spell casting abilities, etc... With few exceptions, Avatars aren't auto-includes and they're not "epic" versions of the masters. They're simply another tool with which to play the game .
Though I have heard aZoraida is a beast, but I haven't seen her on the board lol
Crap, ninja'd by Caty
Oh I wasn't saying it's actually the case - just that when I first looked into it, it kind of felt like that to me, too. ...Of course then I realized providing more options is generally a good thing - if it needs to be as cheap as possible there's always chess
The price per model well, I got a bit of sticker shock looking at some of the individual model boxes at the FLGS - then again, €30ish for a fancy model isn't that far out - and I believe those bigger models especially are a relatively recent thing? Then again, from someone who trumps WM/H of all things as the right kind of pricing I can't see how even the most expensive malifaux models could even make him blink... (Let's just say that the price tag on those bane thralls still makes me wince - and I didn't even pony up for them in the end )
(nice one on that sig quote, btw. original )
I know, but when it comes to the "this game has crazy pricing!" many people look at Avatars and models like Nekima, Snow Storm, and a few other large models. Most of the large based models are priced similarly to their cost in game. Nekima and Snow Storm are both more than 10 points, and while I believe Snow Storm is a better model (and technically 2 models), he is very expensive for a hunk of pewter. Nekima gets more flak because she's unloved due to her rules. Though her model is as solid as a fething rock. The Avatars get the largest amount of hate because they're 2 points an avatar (so low in game cost), but they're all like 30+ dollars a model.
I'd actually be interested in this game (not this Kickstarter) if folks near me played. As it is, I'll definitely keep an eye out if they do.
Steve, you obviously don't pay attention to the DCM AdeptiCon thread Gym plays Malifaux, she's one member of our Cake Tournament Team, I need to give her a refresher on the rules via Vassal, and wouldn't mind giving you one too at the same time.
I read that as RiTides would potentially be interested in playing the RPG, but not participating in the RPG kickstarter. I did just PM him with a little info. Yes, we will have a local nexus of players when the game comes out, but I'm not the FM, so it isn't up to me who will sit at the table.
I'm sure he wants to play the RPG as well, but he made a comment about LCB (Lord Chompy Bits) and I thought he was talking about the Skirmish game lol mah bad if he wasn't.
Bolognesus wrote: I suppose avatars could be seen as something which increases the cost of having your options available significantly... If you play in hypercompetitive meta and cheap is a higher priority than varied to you?
From personal experiance with the tournaments I've run at various conventions the avatars aren't that common except for a few masters. The majority of the winners I've had have either not included the avatar in their crew or never manifested it.
I think avatars was Wyrd first bit of a stumble. I've seen them at a tournament here and there, and a malifaux mad chap at the club uses one regularly, but aside from that they just don't seem to be that popular at all. Theres got to be 7-8 semi regular Malifaux players (inc a henchman), but few people use them. Big buzz and lots of chatter about them in the build up to release, then.........................nothing really.
I'll follow Wyrd for while yet and still play malifaux, but TBH theres not much they are doing that grabs me at the moment. This cutesy gingerbread guff fails hard on a grumpy old man like me! Do need to get a Blessed of December at some point though.
Saw this KS for the RPG and though "yep, just the thing to get back into the 'faux after being out of it for a while". Shame its sort of confirmed a lot of feeling I've had building for a while.
*edit* I've found the plastics to be costly for what they are. Its plastic minis priced like metal ones. Bit close to GW style for me, that one.
Grot 6 wrote: It started for me with the change to plastic, and the increase in models price.
I must be confused, where did the model prices go up? Yes Jakob Lynch's box is on the high end (possibly one of the most expensive boxes), but all the new plastics are decently priced. The metal rats seem to be gakky in price, but everything else is right around where the metal prices were.
When they started out, Wyrd was "One of the boyz". You could have some reactions to some of the stuff, have a few ooohs, and ahhs with the new stuff coming out almost on a regular basis, but then as the helltrain flew off the tracks, some of the standards that they established have slacked off to the point of average and the sculpts and characterization of the established characters has been compromised to "JUST SELL" stuffs.
Again, I'm interested in examples of this. I honestly would love to hear your opinions on this.
The prices are up at my local and not so local FGS's.
Heres an example at FRP. Note that FRP prices are pretty good on a bad day.
There is FRP's Malfaux stuff. We could talk about the scenery sets, as well? the kits in person are around 40 plus bucks.
I picked up my first box for 25 bucks. the blisters were 10 or so.
Not that we can go on to see the stuff in the store? MY local game store that will remain nameless has a full rack at PP prices. ( not including tax, not including discount)
Including BOTH of this? they nullify each other.
By and BY?! Look at the prices of the scenery sets- 18 for the clips? Whats up with that? basicly a set of heavy cardstock pieces, and without the clips- which cost 18 bucks additionally.
No. I'm sorry, but theres a point where it's not fun with stuff like that. Its underhanded and the "Game" suffers because its getting to GW levels of overpriced. ( we do it because we can, you can complain, but the beatings will continue 'till moral improves.)
Example of Nubah two?
The KS is a train wreck. people can cry all they want on how it isn't ONE or two guys thing? It doesn't matter. the company face is on the attitude promoted by this project. I for one get it. You need cash, you have games to make/ sell. Problem is when youo see the pricing already, then the disingenuous attitude in which the spokeman is shilling this thing.
I for one would have loved a RPG for malfaux, but not with the ill feelings that this is giving me as a gamer. I know it's not personal, but as the game is getting bigger, I'm seeing a corresponding attitude getting bigger as well.
"First, I feel a bit slighted because apparently my patronage, with it's critiques of questionable practices and the want of "more" from a company I (used to) quite like seems far less valued than the patronage of the blind fanatic. That's frustrating, as I'd wager I have as much invested in the game as many of those other folks, if not more (been collecting since Origins 2009 when we first saw the game, have 2 full factions in Arcanists and Guild and about half of the Neverborn & Outcasts). "
This hits it on the head. Seeing as I'm not the only one who feels this way. I remember when Santana was a freebee to my local game store. Then as the first few boxes came along, they had a charm to the game that was fresh.
The new car smell of the "New game" wore off. It wore off because of the attitude prevelent on thier board, and some of the vibe that it is producing with the evolution of the game itself.
I actually love the Avatars, but not for game purposes. They're some of the best models in the line, overall.
Sadly, in my meta, not many of the people that play are good painters.....so I've seen a lot of just turrible looking avatars.
Also: -4 Backers, -$214 so far today. I honestly didn't expect that. I'm a bit shocked that the social media encouragement hasn't drumed up ANY additional support.
Honestly, they've probably already hit, or are really close to hitting, the Santana unlock threshold. Once they do, I predict a slight jump (nothing massive) as people migrate to a guaranteed Santana mini.
Grot 6 wrote: It started for me with the change to plastic, and the increase in models price.
I must be confused, where did the model prices go up? Yes Jakob Lynch's box is on the high end (possibly one of the most expensive boxes), but all the new plastics are decently priced. The metal rats seem to be gakky in price, but everything else is right around where the metal prices were.
Relic Hunters (the new Guild Master's box set) is also $40 MSRP (though a local shop will be selling it for $28), looks like that might be their new standard price. However, note that the boxes are now generally bigger, with the inclusion of the master's personal totem, rather than that being a seperate blister. The other Guild boxes are between $32 and $43 ($26 to $34 at local shop) or so, AND you have to buy the totem (if you want it). The old boxes are generally 5 models apiece, the new Guild box has 7 (Master while mounted, dismounted, totem, sidekick and 3 minions). Dark Debts (the new Neverborn master's box) is 6.
As for avatars, between the 7 players in my circle of friends there are exactly two avatars owned; Sonnia (mine) and Rasputina (a friend of mine). We're talking skilled, competitive folks, 4 of whom own pretty much an entire faction apiece, and generally have at least 1-2 crews from other factions bought or being worked on. Personally I wish the avatars did just a bit more, but at least in my case the others seem to lose more than they gain, and I'm not willing to risk 2 stones from my cache and $30+ in the hopes that maybe it'll work out to be a net benefit in the end. I don't want them to be strict upgrades, but I'd at least like them to be more than simply situational.
Grot 6 wrote: It wore off because of the attitude prevelent on thier board
Thier board is one of the worst going (with an annoyingly smug "we are better than GW players" attitude amongst people" and I think thats hit them as its migrated across to the KS backer comments.
Theres a particular blind fanatic on the KS that is pure comedy gold though - no convert like a recent one, eh?
On pricing, first big WTF moment for me on the pricing was the alternate sculpts costing more than the other sculpt of the exact same character!
Grot 6 wrote: It started for me with the change to plastic, and the increase in models price.
I must be confused, where did the model prices go up? Yes Jakob Lynch's box is on the high end (possibly one of the most expensive boxes), but all the new plastics are decently priced. The metal rats seem to be gakky in price, but everything else is right around where the metal prices were.
When they started out, Wyrd was "One of the boyz". You could have some reactions to some of the stuff, have a few ooohs, and ahhs with the new stuff coming out almost on a regular basis, but then as the helltrain flew off the tracks, some of the standards that they established have slacked off to the point of average and the sculpts and characterization of the established characters has been compromised to "JUST SELL" stuffs.
Again, I'm interested in examples of this. I honestly would love to hear your opinions on this.
The prices are up at my local and not so local FGS's.
Heres an example at FRP. Note that FRP prices are pretty good on a bad day.
There is FRP's Malfaux stuff. We could talk about the scenery sets, as well? the kits in person are around 40 plus bucks.
I picked up my first box for 25 bucks. the blisters were 10 or so.
Not that we can go on to see the stuff in the store? MY local game store that will remain nameless has a full rack at PP prices. ( not including tax, not including discount)
Including BOTH of this? they nullify each other.
By and BY?! Look at the prices of the scenery sets- 18 for the clips? Whats up with that? basicly a set of heavy cardstock pieces, and without the clips- which cost 18 bucks additionally.
No. I'm sorry, but theres a point where it's not fun with stuff like that. Its underhanded and the "Game" suffers because its getting to GW levels of overpriced. ( we do it because we can, you can complain, but the beatings will continue 'till moral improves.)
Terraclips aren't everyone's cup of tea, and I've found that it's FAR easier to just avoid them. Until they come out with the vinyl mats they use at GenCon, Terraclips are going to be a bad investment simply because you have to buy 3 boxes to get the appropriate number of 6x6 "ground" pieces to make the bottom of your board. I bought 1 box and 1 set of clips when they were first introduced because the idea interested me, I only picked up my 2nd and 3rd boxes because I didn't have to pay for the fething clips. If you've got the time and inclination (and creativity) you can build beautiful boards with terraclips. BUT these are things I don't have, and they're also not something required to play the game with. I use GF9 scenery personally and when at the store. I tell people if they want terraclips they need 1 box of clips to 1 box of terrain. I rarely push them because they're a pain in the arse to assemble, but like I said you can get some beautiful stuff if you have the various resources I listed above. So even though we're talking about models, I'll grant you the terrain is expensive.
You must have picked your first box up far before I did, because when I bought Lady Justice and Nicodem in the summer of 2011, I paid the retail price of 35 and 29 for the two starter boxes. I don't doubt they were cheaper when they started, but prices have gone up on everything, they're not gw crazy, but model prices fluctuate with the market prices of the materials, something that no wargamer should be new to. Which was 1 (not the only) reason why they wanted to move to plastics, for stability in the material pricing.
FRP is like many other online retailers, they sell at a discount. No one is stopping you from buying from them, and the models are fairly priced and decently inexpensive. Your average single model blister ranges from 7 dollars to 11, right around where you bought your first blister at. The multi model blisters range from 11 to 21. There are always going to be outliers, and a lot of it is based on the size of the model. Snow Storm like I said earlier is a hulk of a model. It's on a 50mm base, it's technically 2 models, and it costs 35 dollars.
I'm also not sure what is "underhanded" are you talking about the clips being sold separately from the terrain? It's kind of dumb, but it's far from underhanded.
Example of Nubah two?
The KS is a train wreck. people can cry all they want on how it isn't ONE or two guys thing? It doesn't matter. the company face is on the attitude promoted by this project. I for one get it. You need cash, you have games to make/ sell. Problem is when youo see the pricing already, then the disingenuous attitude in which the spokeman is shilling this thing.
I for one would have loved a RPG for malfaux, but not with the ill feelings that this is giving me as a gamer. I know it's not personal, but as the game is getting bigger, I'm seeing a corresponding attitude getting bigger as well.
"First, I feel a bit slighted because apparently my patronage, with it's critiques of questionable practices and the want of "more" from a company I (used to) quite like seems far less valued than the patronage of the blind fanatic. That's frustrating, as I'd wager I have as much invested in the game as many of those other folks, if not more (been collecting since Origins 2009 when we first saw the game, have 2 full factions in Arcanists and Guild and about half of the Neverborn & Outcasts). "
This hits it on the head. Seeing as I'm not the only one who feels this way. I remember when Santana was a freebee to my local game store. Then as the first few boxes came along, they had a charm to the game that was fresh.
The new car smell of the "New game" wore off. It wore off because of the attitude prevelent on thier board, and some of the vibe that it is producing with the evolution of the game itself.
Of course, milage may very.
Yes, the Kickstarter is being mismanaged, and Mack is easily the spokesperson for this campaign for at least a solid two to three weeks now, and I'm sure many of these "sell, sell, sell" gimicks we're seeing are not his choice, but I can't say for sure. As for Santana, when was she a freebee to your local store? She's never been given to stores. She was a thank-you to henchmen that ran enough events during the world wide campaign or worked enough hours at GenCon. She was prize support in a few things, but there haven't been major tournaments or events really since GenCon. There were the UK masters, but you're an American, and we gave out 1 in the Dakka Painting Challenge. So, I'm not sure where that's coming from
Grot 6 wrote: It started for me with the change to plastic, and the increase in models price.
I must be confused, where did the model prices go up? Yes Jakob Lynch's box is on the high end (possibly one of the most expensive boxes), but all the new plastics are decently priced. The metal rats seem to be gakky in price, but everything else is right around where the metal prices were.
Relic Hunters (the new Guild Master's box set) is also $40 MSRP (though a local shop will be selling it for $28), looks like that might be their new standard price. However, note that the boxes are now generally bigger, with the inclusion of the master's personal totem, rather than that being a seperate blister. The other Guild boxes are between $32 and $43 ($26 to $34 at local shop) or so, AND you have to buy the totem (if you want it). The old boxes are generally 5 models apiece, the new Guild box has 7 (Master while mounted, dismounted, totem, sidekick and 3 minions). Dark Debts (the new Neverborn master's box) is 6.
As for avatars, between the 7 players in my circle of friends there are exactly two avatars owned; Sonnia (mine) and Rasputina (a friend of mine). We're talking skilled, competitive folks, 4 of whom own pretty much an entire faction apiece, and generally have at least 1-2 crews from other factions bought or being worked on. Personally I wish the avatars did just a bit more, but at least in my case the others seem to lose more than they gain, and I'm not willing to risk 2 stones from my cache and $30+ in the hopes that maybe it'll work out to be a net benefit in the end. I don't want them to be strict upgrades, but I'd at least like them to be more than simply situational.
While Relic Hunters is 40, and Dark Debts if 40, The Thunder and Rail Crew are both 35. The 40 dollars might be the fact that there is a 50mm based model in it, but I don't know for certain, like you Forar, I'm not in on all the details.
And there it is, the Avatars hate I was talking about. I told ya they'd get flak because of their price . I own/ed 3 avatars. I had Peaches and Som'er Teeth when I ran gremlins, but traded all of them for most of my current collection (minus Lady J and Nicodem boxes). I got two avatars out of the deal, aDreamer and aPandora. I only use 1 of the avatars I own because for the longest time it was the only way for me to reach 35ss with the neverborn I owned (Since I only owned Dreamer and LCB from their individual box not their starter). This is no longer the case, and so I rarely include aPandora any more, but she was a solid staple for about 4 months.
Fenrir, they no longer offer the alt sculpts... I only know this because I like alt McMourning and alt Rasputina far more than their regular sculpts.
cincydooley wrote: I actually love the Avatars, but not for game purposes. They're some of the best models in the line, overall.
Sadly, in my meta, not many of the people that play are good painters.....so I've seen a lot of just turrible looking avatars.
Also: -4 Backers, -$214 so far today. I honestly didn't expect that. I'm a bit shocked that the social media encouragement hasn't drumed up ANY additional support.
Shocking, really.
The data for the last 9 days is a bit shocking:
This might be the strangest end to a 'successful' game Kickstarter yet.
Re: Terraclips; I have the Streets, Buildings and Sewers sets and while clipping a bunch of 3x3's together to make up for lacking 6x6's would be less than ideal, it could be done. For a full 3' x 3' board? Yeah, I'd recommend 3 boxes, but you can also get away with skipping the actual bottom board and just building, well, buildings, which is vastly less 6x6 intensive. I heard about the vinyl mats, and remain intrigued. I don't find them terribly problematic to build with, though I find the disassembly process can lead to the occasional broken clip. As a new wargamer who doesn't have any terrain to speak of aside from said clips, however, it was a fairly low cost entry to have some seriously modable boards I can build for when a buddy swings by.
The clips being sold seperately from the terrain is actually a feature, not a bug, imo. Personally I wish they were sold in bulk bins, so I could snag 10 or 20 of the ones I run short of or have broken a couple of, instead of having to get a full box. I'm not there yet, but a couple more snapped clips and I might just tag another round of clips to make sure I don't run out when board building, especially since I'll have to make sure they're movable in the new condo.
Alfndrate wrote: And there it is, the Avatars hate I was talking about. I told ya they'd get flak because of their price . I own/ed 3 avatars. I had Peaches and Som'er Teeth when I ran gremlins, but traded all of them for most of my current collection (minus Lady J and Nicodem boxes). I got two avatars out of the deal, aDreamer and aPandora. I only use 1 of the avatars I own because for the longest time it was the only way for me to reach 35ss with the neverborn I owned (Since I only owned Dreamer and LCB from their individual box not their starter). This is no longer the case, and so I rarely include aPandora any more, but she was a solid staple for about 4 months.
Re: Avatars: if that's "hate", man, you must live in one absurdly laid back world. O.o
The avatars vary heavily from faction to faction. Some Neverborn players seem keen on theirs. Some Ressers seem to consider most of theirs amazing. I wouldn't know, I haven't committed the time necessary to figure that all out, and I've yet to play against any. I just know that what Perdita and Hoffman give up in their Avatar form is a tough sell compared to what they lose. That's not "hating", it's an assessment of the stats on the figures against costs, both in game and out. As someone who owns the entire Guild lineup (minus 3 avatars and 2 figures because they are remarkably disappointing), I made the call, and one day I might get around to snagging them, but for now I'd rather have that $100+ in my pocket.
But of course, you are Defending Against The Haters. ;-)
Edit: also, while Snowstorm is a large and impressive figure to be sure, calling it "two models" is disingenuous, as the "second one" is a teeny tiny woman (single piece, if I'm not mistaken) who sits in front of him. I'm pretty sure I've got single parts of other models that are bigger and more detailed than she is.
Bolognesus wrote: I suppose avatars could be seen as something which increases the cost of having your options available significantly... If you play in hypercompetitive meta and cheap is a higher priority than varied to you?
From personal experiance with the tournaments I've run at various conventions the avatars aren't that common except for a few masters. The majority of the winners I've had have either not included the avatar in their crew or never manifested it.
I think avatars was Wyrd first bit of a stumble. I've seen them at a tournament here and there, and a malifaux mad chap at the club uses one regularly, but aside from that they just don't seem to be that popular at all. Theres got to be 7-8 semi regular Malifaux players (inc a henchman), but few people use them. Big buzz and lots of chatter about them in the build up to release, then.........................nothing really.
I'll follow Wyrd for while yet and still play malifaux, but TBH theres not much they are doing that grabs me at the moment. This cutesy gingerbread guff fails hard on a grumpy old man like me! Do need to get a Blessed of December at some point though.
Saw this KS for the RPG and though "yep, just the thing to get back into the 'faux after being out of it for a while". Shame its sort of confirmed a lot of feeling I've had building for a while.
*edit* I've found the plastics to be costly for what they are. Its plastic minis priced like metal ones. Bit close to GW style for me, that one.
I suspect the comparatively high startup costs on molds like that and relatively low turnover of boxes like a malifaux crew, compared to a GW troops choice, would leave them little choice... I'm still surprised they can make it work TBH.
I suspect the comparatively high startup costs on molds like that and relatively low turnover of boxes like a malifaux crew, compared to a GW troops choice, would leave them little choice... I'm still surprised they can make it work TBH.
The whole "plastic has soooooo incredible high start-up costs" myth needs to finally die a quick, ugly death.
It's not 2002 anymore.
Look at what's out there - not least on Kickstarter - for plastic-cast miniatures.
DreamForge managed to finance state-of-the-art-slide-core-hard-plastic-tooling for a variety of Titan-sized kits, with dozends of weapon variants, a troop APC-style transporter, boxes for 5 or 6 different types of infantry, all with gazillion of options, as well as a few Kickstarter specials and rare miniatures out of a 250.000,- USD Kickstarter (which also pays for buckets of the miniatures themselves AND shipping them all over the world too).
Forar wrote: Re: Avatars: if that's "hate", man, you must live in one absurdly laid back world. O.o
The avatars vary heavily from faction to faction. Some Neverborn players seem keen on theirs. Some Ressers seem to consider most of theirs amazing. I wouldn't know, I haven't committed the time necessary to figure that all out, and I've yet to play against any. I just know that what Perdita and Hoffman give up in their Avatar form is a tough sell compared to what they lose. That's not "hating", it's an assessment of the stats on the figures against costs, both in game and out. As someone who owns the entire Guild lineup (minus 3 avatars and 2 figures because they are remarkably disappointing), I made the call, and one day I might get around to snagging them, but for now I'd rather have that $100+ in my pocket.
But of course, you are Defending Against The Haters. ;-)
For the most part it's laid back. There isn't a lot of seriousness in my statement about the hate (thus the ). I find avatars an interesting change, and I rarely find issue in manifesting my avatar. I can see where people don't like them, and I wouldn't mind if there were some differences to my main avatar (like I think aPandora should be able to cast a spell and have those wild tentacles pop up elsewhere on the board, but that's the drawback I take with her).
And I can't count, I forgot I bought aLeviticus at GenCon because I had Guild Scripps I needed to spend fast, so I picked up him, Tina's box (again) and Levi's starter box. I just have never used him, and probably won't until I run the 4 Horseman of Malifaux list
Maybe I'm jaded by what I'm used to paying for GW, but I think the new Relic Hunters box is an absolute bargain at $40 MSRP, especially when I'll probaby only pay $24-$30 for it based on wherever I buy it from.
Avatars Commentary on ones we own:
Sonnia ($40 MSRP) - Really like this model, and my wife loves it. Plenty of value IMO at $40.
Lady Justice ($35) - Just got her in yesterday. I don't mind it... It isn't my favorite model, and I think she's a touch overpriced.
Perdita ($45) - Worth every Penny. Love this model. Only wish the body of the neverborn she's riding was resin and not metal.
Ramos ($28) - He's okay. Not my favorite of the Arcanists, but I like him. Priced very well, and I think Lady J should have been priced here also.
Marcus ($30) - Didn't like the wings at first, but when I assembled and cleaned the model, I changed my tune. A GREAT deal at $30. He's nearly the size of Perdita, so the price discrepancy is odd. Wish his body was resin.
Tina ($30) - Probably my favorite of the Arcanists avatars. I think she's pretty well priced at $30. No great bargain, but not bad. I think Wyrd could do VERY well with her if they released a blue or clear resin one like Dark Age does.
Colette ($30) - She's okay. She's really three models, so it's only $10 a model. That's pretty fair any way you cut it.
The avatars vary heavily from faction to faction. Some Neverborn players seem keen on theirs. Some Ressers seem to consider most of theirs amazing. I wouldn't know, I haven't committed the time necessary to figure that all out, and I've yet to play against any. I just know that what Perdita and Hoffman give up in their Avatar form is a tough sell compared to what they lose. That's not "hating", it's an assessment of the stats on the figures against costs, both in game and out. As someone who owns the entire Guild lineup (minus 3 avatars and 2 figures because they are remarkably disappointing), I made the call, and one day I might get around to snagging them, but for now I'd rather have that $100+ in my pocket.
Curious to know who you were disappointed in I'd love to see if I agree
Edit: also, while Snowstorm is a large and impressive figure to be sure, calling it "two models" is disingenuous, as the "second one" is a teeny tiny woman (single piece, if I'm not mistaken) who sits in front of him. I'm pretty sure I've got single parts of other models that are bigger and more detailed than she is.
I think snowstorm is great. And I don't think $35 for him (or 25-30 online) Is unreasonable at all. He's quite a large model...
I suspect the comparatively high startup costs on molds like that and relatively low turnover of boxes like a malifaux crew, compared to a GW troops choice, would leave them little choice... I'm still surprised they can make it work TBH.
The whole "plastic has soooooo incredible high start-up costs" myth needs to finally die a quick, ugly death.
It's not 2002 anymore.
Look at what's out there - not least on Kickstarter - for plastic-cast miniatures.
DreamForge managed to finance state-of-the-art-slide-core-hard-plastic-tooling for a variety of Titan-sized kits, with dozends of weapon variants, a troop APC-style transporter, boxes for 5 or 6 different types of infantry, all with gazillion of options, as well as a few Kickstarter specials and rare miniatures out of a 250.000,- USD Kickstarter (which also pays for buckets of the miniatures themselves AND shipping them all over the world too).
Yes - lots of those are either restic like stuff (which is cast in rubber molds - lower start-up!) or stuff prospective buyers get 5 or 6 each of - and part of a smaller range with less variety in boxes.
Tooling steel molds for injection molding is still expensive. Not half as much as it was, and there's a lot more that can be done now, but it's still a high cost.
Wyrd is tooling minis hardly anyone will be getting more than one of, in a wide range (lots of different masters/starter kits!) in HIPS. That is still quite impressive and they need a relatively big margin over and above the cost per unit to recoup that initial investment.
Because of a drop in costs it is now feasible to do it - but to expect prices to go down significantly because of it well, that would probably require Malifaux to get a bit bigger than it is now, in terms of sales...
Also, I believe that rail golem thing *would* have been significantly more expensive in resin or metal - it seems plastic did help them keep the cost a bit lower there. (that thing is huge, for a game like this!)
It's a relatively small sprue for the size of the model, though (and therefore relatively lucrative to tool in plastic as opposed to materials where the cost per gram of used material matters a lot more).
The avatars vary heavily from faction to faction. Some Neverborn players seem keen on theirs. Some Ressers seem to consider most of theirs amazing. I wouldn't know, I haven't committed the time necessary to figure that all out, and I've yet to play against any. I just know that what Perdita and Hoffman give up in their Avatar form is a tough sell compared to what they lose. That's not "hating", it's an assessment of the stats on the figures against costs, both in game and out. As someone who owns the entire Guild lineup (minus 3 avatars and 2 figures because they are remarkably disappointing), I made the call, and one day I might get around to snagging them, but for now I'd rather have that $100+ in my pocket.
Curious to know who you were disappointed in I'd love to see if I agree
As a primarily Guild player, I do love Sonnia's Avatar form. She gains some mobility in Flight, her counter-spell becomes that much nastier, and her flame pillars not only persist but can be moved right onto people for damage and a burning token, on top of the horrors that can be arranged with Searing Wave.
I don't have my books in front of me to do a point by point, but Perdita and Hoffman in particular lose more than I'm willing to give up. Sure, Perdita gains Flight and Paired, but she loses some considerable things as well. I'll try to remember to grab my copy of book 3 tonight and look up the specifics of what I dislike. Hoffman I generally build as a Construct crew, and he loses a lot of his synergy within such crews in order to become a bit more combat oriented in the process. Dangerous, but I wouldn't consider him a terrifying force for the battlefield in his new form. Justice's I haven't looked at much in a while, but that's more due to our other Guild player primarily playing Justice herself, so it's more 'her master', I just have her on hand to keep my options open.
Edit: also, while Snowstorm is a large and impressive figure to be sure, calling it "two models" is disingenuous, as the "second one" is a teeny tiny woman (single piece, if I'm not mistaken) who sits in front of him. I'm pretty sure I've got single parts of other models that are bigger and more detailed than she is.
I think snowstorm is great. And I don't think $35 for him (or 25-30 online) Is unreasonable at all. He's quite a large model...
Note: I didn't say he was unreasonably priced. I said it was disingenuous to call him 2 models. He is one GIGANTIC model, and one extremely small part that is more of an accessory than a second model.
Grot 6 wrote: It started for me with the change to plastic, and the increase in models price.
I must be confused, where did the model prices go up? Yes Jakob Lynch's box is on the high end (possibly one of the most expensive boxes), but all the new plastics are decently priced. The metal rats seem to be gakky in price, but everything else is right around where the metal prices were.
The new 3 dude packs are mostly more expensive than their metal ones, but I looked at the sprues, and they're way more detailed minis, so my perception of "too expensive" quickly became "pretty justifiably expensive," as long as you care about how your minis look.
When they started out, Wyrd was "One of the boyz". You could have some reactions to some of the stuff, have a few ooohs, and ahhs with the new stuff coming out almost on a regular basis, but then as the helltrain flew off the tracks, some of the standards that they established have slacked off to the point of average and the sculpts and characterization of the established characters has been compromised to "JUST SELL" stuffs.
Again, I'm interested in examples of this. I honestly would love to hear your opinions on this.
+1. I've found their characters to be one of the best parts of their games, with a fair amount of fun, some real twists (notably including alliances that actually go counter to the rules game), and the rare little nugget of gold in this or that. I consider myself pretty critical of Hasbro writing, and haven't seen much of any in the Malifaux setting, so I'm curious what you're seeing.
spiralingcadaver wrote: The new 3 dude packs are mostly more expensive than their metal ones, but I looked at the sprues, and they're way more detailed minis, so my perception of "too expensive" quickly became "pretty justifiably expensive," as long as you care about how your minis look.
Most of them come with one or two extra/interchangeable bits. I won't like. It's taken some serious restraint from me not to buy multiples of models so I can have both looks
spiralingcadaver wrote: The new 3 dude packs are mostly more expensive than their metal ones, but I looked at the sprues, and they're way more detailed minis, so my perception of "too expensive" quickly became "pretty justifiably expensive," as long as you care about how your minis look.
Most of them come with one or two extra/interchangeable bits. I won't like. It's taken some serious restraint from me not to buy multiples of models so I can have both looks
Dammit Cincy! Stop ruining this image I have in my head of you being a Wyrd hater
Speaking of aSonnia, I spent all Saturday of GenCon in the Event Hall demoing Malifaux using figures that Ebonstar (a "Mali-famous" Henchman from SoCal) had painted. And while I was sitting down taking a quick break (after 6 hours of standing >_<, this woman comes up and sees Ebonstar's aSonnia and tells her husband she wants that sitting on her mantle. She sadly seemed put off by the fact she would have to assemble and paint it lol. I don't play Guild very often, but aSonnia is probably my favorite model from that line (besides just how cool the Guild Riflemen look )
The only thing I dislike about the new plastics is that some bits can be amazingly difficult to figure out and assemble properly just by looking at the back of the box. The hats for the Ten Thunders Archers are one example. The cloth bits drove me completely bat-eyed crazy for a while there. Willie practically assembled himself though, so I guess there's a balance somehow.
The one thing I love about the figures is the fact that the plastic is sturdy enough that they can make extremely fine/fiddly bits and still have those pieces hold up under typical useage/storage. It seems that they form a better bond via plastic cement, than GW's models. In fact, I'd say they're a LOT better than the GW figs in this department.
Now if only we could convince them to re-release the old metals in plastic....
spiralingcadaver wrote: The new 3 dude packs are mostly more expensive than their metal ones, but I looked at the sprues, and they're way more detailed minis, so my perception of "too expensive" quickly became "pretty justifiably expensive," as long as you care about how your minis look.
Most of them come with one or two extra/interchangeable bits. I won't like. It's taken some serious restraint from me not to buy multiples of models so I can have both looks
Dammit Cincy! Stop ruining this image I have in my head of you being a Wyrd hater
Speaking of aSonnia, I spent all Saturday of GenCon in the Event Hall demoing Malifaux using figures that Ebonstar (a "Mali-famous" Henchman from SoCal) had painted. And while I was sitting down taking a quick break (after 6 hours of standing >_<, this woman comes up and sees Ebonstar's aSonnia and tells her husband she wants that sitting on her mantle. She sadly seemed put off by the fact she would have to assemble and paint it lol. I don't play Guild very often, but aSonnia is probably my favorite model from that line (besides just how cool the Guild Riflemen look )
Hey, I never claimed to hate them. The fact that I've been critical is because I like them. I expect better from them. It's like when I played football: You never worry when the coach chews your ass. You get your ass chewed because the coach cares. The minute they stop is the minute you should start worrying.
So...Presumably we'll see Avatars for the 10 Thunders Dudes too, right? Interesting.
Speaking of Guild Riflemen... have you built them yet? Any fiddly bits I need to worry about?
I don't think we'll see avatars for Book 4 masters, probably not for a while. Technically The Event has already happened, and if our Ten Thunders peeps didn't have something change in them, probably nothing will... This being said, we might see one in two years or so, but who knows.
Haven't assembled my riflemen yet, but I know they're "fiddly as gak" Nix was saying they should probably be painted on the sprue, because there are some pieces that are difficult to get to once assembled. But they're by far my favorite model to come out besides the new Master models (I'm in love with the sculpts for Mei Fang, Lynch, Misaki, and now McCabe, I'm a little curious about Yan Lo, but who knows!)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Though I should note: I'm probably gonna see about making a Guild Riflewoman for my Lady J crew so that she remains all ladies all the time
The Guild Riflemen should be out now, but McCabe probably won't be out for ~3 weeks or so.
I snagged McCabe during their Birthday sale early in December (which they had instead of a Black Friday sale, basically the same thing), during which McCabe and a few other models were available early.
I really should've just waited to get it from my local store and saved $15 (after S&H vs Taxes), but I managed to get one of the NE LCBs, and figured I might as well guarantee a copy of McCabe, rather than risking a "oops, we ran out/it was delayed, maybe next month" situation. Oh well, a buddy got hooked up with an awesome model and I'll have something to work on later in the month once my move is mostly done.
The Guild Riflemen should be out now, but McCabe probably won't be out for ~3 weeks or so.
I snagged McCabe during their Birthday sale early in December (which they had instead of a Black Friday sale, basically the same thing), during which McCabe and a few other models were available early.
I really should've just waited to get it from my local store and saved $15 (after S&H vs Taxes), but I managed to get one of the NE LCBs, and figured I might as well guarantee a copy of McCabe, rather than risking a "oops, we ran out/it was delayed, maybe next month" situation. Oh well, a buddy got hooked up with an awesome model and I'll have something to work on later in the month once my move is mostly done.
I hate you Forar, I had the cash for a NE LCB, and I couldn't get my mitts on one D: So I settled for Teddy instead.
And McCabe should be "available" in your FLGS in 2 weeks or so, and available on Wyrd's website probably around the first of February (I only know this because Misaki's box just went up on Wyrd's webstore late last night or early today.
Hey, at least I'm not just reselling it on Ebay! :-D
Which, admittedly, was a small risk. I offered the figure to one friend (our primary Neverborn player). If he didn't want it, it was going up for grabs between 3 other friends (not competitively, more of a 'first come, first serve' approach, I'm looking to recoup costs, not make money), but if not it was going up for auction, and probably would've paid for the entire purchase, rather than ending up as a bit of a loss (due to Wyrd charging full MSRP whereas I can get stuff at 1/3 off locally).
I wasn't actually looking forward to it ending up 'in the wild', but it was a consideration, if just to ensure I didn't end up sitting on a model I wasn't actually going to use. Simply happened to be fast enough on the draw and figured that by the time my friends got to a computer they'd all be gone.
Nearly grabbed a Teddy too, but I couldn't be certain any of our 3 NB players (or the others who just love the model) would be willing to pay for him. Two calculated risks were enough for me on that order.
Edit: and we're nearly up to 193k, for the first time, if I'm not mistaken. $150 short at the moment.
I know it'll continue to bounce up and down, but ye gods am I tired of seeing this campaign hover between 191 and 192.
Forar wrote: Hey, at least I'm not just reselling it on Ebay! :-D
Which, admittedly, was a small risk. I offered the figure to one friend (our primary Neverborn player). If he didn't want it, it was going up for grabs between 3 other friends (not competitively, more of a 'first come, first serve' approach, I'm looking to recoup costs, not make money), but if not it was going up for auction, and probably would've paid for the entire purchase, rather than ending up as a bit of a loss (due to Wyrd charging full MSRP whereas I can get stuff at 1/3 off locally).
I wasn't actually looking forward to it ending up 'in the wild', but it was a consideration, if just to ensure I didn't end up sitting on a model I wasn't actually going to use. Simply happened to be fast enough on the draw and figured that by the time my friends got to a computer they'd all be gone.
Nearly grabbed a Teddy too, but I couldn't be certain any of our 3 NB players (or the others who just love the model) would be willing to pay for him. Two calculated risks were enough for me on that order.
Edit: and we're nearly up to 193k, for the first time, if I'm not mistaken. $150 short at the moment.
I know it'll continue to bounce up and down, but ye gods am I tired of seeing this campaign hover between 191 and 192.
I've actively stopped looking at the total cash pledge right around Christmas. My money is set into my other bank account that is attached to a card I never use, so when the drive ends, my money goes bye-bye and I play the waiting game.
One thing I do hope they "learn" from the EBO KS to this one is to send everything out at once... I don't want to get the books, and then spend another few months waiting for my fate deck and minis to arrive.
They've said that it will be one single shipment that goes out.
As for the funding, I'm watching because I want to see this at least tick over 200k. Yeah, my tier retains a tiny risk of changing, but I think we'll be set on Santana as of tonight or tomorrow night, at which point I'm probably locked in.
Higher stretch goals for the book improvements and a few extra swag pieces wouldn't go unappreciated though, especially as someone who earlier mentioned how little terrain he has around the house.
Edit: 193k yesssssss! I saw it! It happened!
... it will probably be back to 192 and change by the time I post this. >.>
Alright, I know I've already dropped my pledge, but this update, had it been done earlier, would have made me keep it. TONS of changes made for the better and a telling of what the 750 and 1000 points on the bar mean.
Salutations!
Today's a big one. Lots of updates to go over! To begin with, we have some adjustments to the stretch goals. These are pretty straight forward, but I want to make sure to mention them each individually.
First, we have introduced a $195k stretch goal. When we hit it, the Core Set pledge levels ($60) will gain the Special Edition Fate Deck!
Secondly, we've moved the Digital book versions down from $250k to $205k, bringing them much closer to a device near you!
Lastly, we've added a new $215k level. This level exchanges the random Male or Female multi-pose kit for both kits! Yes, this means the Dining Room level will come with two of each!
Now, on to the "Ye Old Back-O-Meter One Thousand". You'll notice in today's update how close we are to breaking through to Santana at the Gaming Room pledge level. The official point total is 488 points as of this posting! As that meter moves up, we'll be adding Santana to more pledge levels. At 750 points, Santana will go out to our Living and Dining room backers. At 1000 points our Core Set backer's will also get a Santana!
Tomorrow, I'll post a little game. It's quite a puzzler. If the community solves it, it will net a cool 100 points towards unlocking Santana! We'll have more games coming next week as well, for even more points!
Oh, and the last two Breach Side Chat videos are up on Youtube now! So, if you're curious about the details of the mechanics or want to see if your questions were answered, you now have a second way to watch!
Perhaps! Although, I think that the early backer thing will bite them in the butt. I would totally come back and pledge... if I could get my Miss T and Penny Dreadful back. Maybe I'll message them and ask.
First time Wyrd's done something (EDIT) in this campaign I can almost completely get behind. Some good/more realistic choices moving some stuff and adding some. Having shorter stretches definitely has me more excited about this.
The only kind of minor complaint I have is that santana would theoretically be going down to the $60 range, which devalues the mini substantially.
Either way, I'm impressed about this-- it could actually turn around the campaign fairly substantially
BrookM wrote: Only problem is, plenty of $125 backers will not budge, I know I won't!
But that's the point: for the first time they are doing something that encourages people who haven't already pledged, to pledge. Now if only we can get them to put Miss T back, they will have soled almost all of their problems, and by that i mean done everything I ever asked!
)...
it is.
