BrookM wrote: Just a neutral remark here, not taking sides, but that's the beauty with Kickstarter, you can pledge now but don't pay until it is over.
^ This, I've never really seen the point of waiting with kickstarter...
Many of us were waiting to see if they addressed any of the criticisms and concerned. Plopping down my money before doing do only tells them that what they've done is the "right" thing.
When they didn't budge and basically gave a big middle finger to all of those with concerns, I was glad I didn't back.
I don't get the "just throw down the money and decide later" attitude. But to each his own.
Day Nine is coming to a close, so it’s time for the Daily Update!
Thank you for your tremendous support thus far! If you’ve already pledged, share the news with your gaming buddies and tell them to hop on this wild ride too. The Early Supporter and Week 2 Thank You are just the beginning of the bonus goodie gifts and early access to exciting content. . .
One more note, and then we’re going to let Mack take it away with a Sneak Peek on Pursuits!! We had a few backers express interest in seeing the Breach Side Chat from http://www.ustream.tv/channel/through-the-breach go up on YouTube, so we published it today on our channel here:
Alright, Mack – take it away! Until Tomorrow! Jacqulyn
Pursuits in “Through the Breach” fill a similar (but somewhat different) role to “Classes” or “Archetypes” in other Tabletop RPGs. Fated (the name for player characters in our game) are far more than just their current pursuit. This is accomplished by a character choosing which road to travel, and being fairly free to switch them at any time.
Take the tail of Mr. Sterling, for example. Many would view him as a Criminal. He smuggles food and medicine into the quarantine zone… and more dangerous products out. Others would consider him a Wastrel, as he spends much of his free time in his favorite saloon. Still others might consider him an Overseer, as he manages the daily operations of his “legitimate” business (he’s an apple vendor).
None would be incorrect. Mr. Sterling is more than just his current Pursuit. He jumps between them as the story progresses, moving further down each path. Each Pursuit has a different advancement path, which provides Talents as they advance down the Pursuit. In addition, each Pursuit has an ability that can only be accessed by a character while they are “on the Pursuit”.
If a character leaves a Pursuit for another (done in between game sessions) he will begin gaining the talents associated with that pursuit. If he later returns to his original Pursuit, he will pick up where he left off, moving further down the track.
However, Pursuits differ very strongly from classes, in that they do not define a character’s role; that is up to the player. A Tinker can augment himself with powerful pneumatic armor, making him a robust physical combatant… or he could focus on more esoteric tools. It’s about the character, not the Pursuit. Two Performers may have learned the same talents moving down the same track, but they will both differ greatly in how they use those tools. In addition, they are likely to have very different “Advanced Pursuits”… which is something we’ll get into later!
For now, this graphic contains a list of the Novice Pursuits (that name might change) that are currently planned to be available to new character’s in Through The Breach!
Justin, one of Wyrd's employees said that they had a mistake with the graphic they put up, I'm going to try and get this updated with the right image, apparently I was quick on the trigger.
For the most point, those Novie Pursuits are pretty standard... I would have been more interested to see how Pursuits evolve over the course of the campaign.
On another note I'm watching the Breach Side Chat right now.
So I just finished watching the first Through the Breach on Youtube. If you have any interest in this RPG it's definatly worth a watch as it answers alot of questions about the game system and where Mack would like to see it go. I've played Malifaux for awhile down and for the past year or so my intrest in it has been on the wane, this project is starting to get me excitied about it again. I complied some notes on some things that interested me during the webcast, but its certaintly not all that was discused in the during it.
- Dispostion, this is going to provide a crossover between the RPG and the Minatures Game. Basically its going to be a way to take your RPG character and play it with the minatures game and vice versa. This has some interesting potential when it comes to campaign type settings for both of the games..
- It doesn't sound like there will be an online or app based character generator, but there might be something to help track your character.
- Goblins don't poop.
- Not every character and use soul stones.
- Players share a fate deck, but each player gets to design their own 13 card twist deck. Twist decks will be a drawn from a fate deck but will improve over time.
- The first book will only give player optinos for Human characters, but it was strongly hinted that we will see an announcement in the next several weeks that would change this.
- Crafting seems to be important. The example of replaceing a lost limb with a pnuematic one was given.
- The RPG doesn't use minis as the default combat option, but there will be an option to do this. Possibly going back to the Dispostion.
- There is no solid answer on a fate screen yet, again it was strongly hinted that this will change. Maybe a possible stretch goal?
- A skill check is going to consist of the relavant stats plus a card flip - Stat 1 + Stat 2 + Flip vs. Difficulty. Most of the difficulties will be set in stone i.e. jumping a certain distance, picking a lock, etc.
- When your health reaches zero you don't die, but bad things start happening to you. The example of loseing an eye, finger or arm was given.
- Weapon damage and health will work alof like the minatures game but will most likely be scaled down.
- There are 8 stats, 4 mental and 4 physical. When you generate your character you will flip a card once for mental and once for physical. Each of these flips will give you an array of 4 numbers that will add up to +1. You will then distrubute the numbers to your stats with 0 being considered an average skill. The higher your initial flip the more well rounded and less focused your character will be. After you asign the array you will be given a small number of bonus points to spend to increase your stats. During character creation your really looking for a well rounded character.
- There will be prusuits and advanced prusuits. Prusuits are easy to change between while advanced prusuits are more story driven.
- There are 4 ways to improve your character over the course of the game:
1 - Skills improve over time as they are used.
2 - The longer your on a prusuit the more skills and triggers you get.
3 - Twist deck.
4 - Every time you complete a step on your destiny you'll increase and atribute(skill I think).
- There will be pets/familiars but they aren't tied to a class.
- A fatemaster deck is just a regular fate deck but it will have some additional player aids on it.
If anyone has any questions, I might be able to answer them but I do highly recommend watching the Breach Side Chat. It's definatly worth the hour of your time.
This looks great !! I'm just getting into the miniatures game and an RPG is fantastic !!
But am I the only one who is getting annoyed at Kickstarters WITH Kickstarters?
I mean, I'm pledging to help make a project happen and am expected to wait months for it to be released. But I get penalized and miss out on some cool exclusive because I wasn't aware of it sooner and miss the early pledge deadline? That bugs me and I'm not a fan of that tactic.
Myrthe wrote: But I get penalized and miss out on some cool exclusive because I wasn't aware of it sooner and miss the early pledge deadline? That bugs me and I'm not a fan of that tactic.
Yea, I'm also not a fan. Even Kingdom Death's "Black Friday" price break is a little irritating for those of us who locked in a higher pledge because we missed Black Friday or because we missread the pledge description.
Day Ten is coming to a close, so it’s time for the Daily Update! Today we’ll send you off to your weekend with some exciting stuff to look forward to for next week!
Get ready to hear the answers to those burning questions you posted in the comments section @BreachSideChat! Mack will be live on Ustream Wednesday, December 12th at 11 a.m. PST. Check it out here: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/through-the-breach
Previously only announced in updates, we are extending the deadline to get our latest early backer reward. As it was only announced through updates, we want to make sure everyone who would like to has the opportunity to get it. If you pledge $60 or more by Friday, Dec. 14th at 5pm PST, you will receive a digital copy of the first official Through the Breach adventure, titled “In Defense of Innocence”.
If you have already pledged, no worries! You will automatically receive this "Thank You" reward and all previous rewards you are eligible for. Likewise, if you pledge to receive this reward, you will also receive all subsequent "Thank You" rewards we may run!
But you know what you won't get? The first thank you item. And guess what? If you don't pledge until the 15th, you won't get either!!!! Aren't we generous!!
RiTides wrote: Yeah- that's not going to work out in the end, imo. Talk about intentionally gimping your last minute push...
Yes, it is gimping their final push, because many people usually wait till the last minute and say, "Oh well NOW I can get this, that, and another thing, whereas 2 weeks ago I couldn't." They're making this about the project, not what the final push backers can line their pockets with, which is what kickstarter is about. It has been said that the diehard Mali-fools have already backed this project, and would have anyways. The thank yous are to bring in new people that might be interested, and help us get the stretch goals. How many times have we seen in a KS, "As a thank you! We're unlocking this for all levels!" This is no different, they're just not treating it as a stretch goal, and are forcing backers to play their hand to get what they really want, and trust that Wyrd is going to deliver more and more things they'll enjoy.
The kickstarter is slowing down on it's pledges per day, but we're already well beyond the initial funding goal, and so we're pulling in people that weren't in the initial push. While Saturdays are generally slow, we're sitting at 1,465 in pledges yesterday with 1,501 today already (11:45am EST).
Like it has been stated before, there is nothing stopping someone from pledging at the beginning of the drive and waiting it out until the final hours to decide if they want to go through with it or not. In fact, waiting till the end is the dumbest idea ever with something like this imo. You make a conservative pledge (60 bucks), and wait to see if that investment grows to include better things, or if the higher levels suddenly become the sweet spot.
RiTides wrote: Yeah- that's not going to work out in the end, imo. Talk about intentionally gimping your last minute push...
Yes, it is gimping their final push, because many people usually wait till the last minute and say, "Oh well NOW I can get this, that, and another thing, whereas 2 weeks ago I couldn't." They're making this about the project, not what the final push backers can line their pockets with, which is what kickstarter is about. It has been said that the diehard Mali-fools have already backed this project, and would have anyways. The thank yous are to bring in new people that might be interested, and help us get the stretch goals. How many times have we seen in a KS, "As a thank you! We're unlocking this for all levels!" This is no different, they're just not treating it as a stretch goal, and are forcing backers to play their hand to get what they really want, and trust that Wyrd is going to deliver more and more things they'll enjoy.
Yes, but by doing so they are gimping the dynamic that gets people out and promote the project.
Normally a stretch goals have a tendency to create a dynamic all of their own.
A.) For example, Kickstarter X starts. For $10 you will get 2 cookies. 15 people might be interested, because for them $10,- for 2 cookies is a good enough deal. Not all of them may know of the KS though.
B.) First stretch goal: If we get a total of $100,- we will give 3 cookies to every $ 10,- pledge.
C.) So people go out and promote the project. Once there are 10 pledgers are in the stretch goal is reached and you get 3 cookies. Now 15 more people may potentially jump on. They wouldn't spend $10,- for 2 cookies, but they're in it for 3. The Kickstarter passed the point where they are "in"
D.) Second stretch goal: If we get a total of $200,- we will give 4 cookies to ever $ 10,- pledge.
etc.., ad infinitum
The idea is that it creates a virtuous circle. Current backers know, that the deal will be better for them, the more people join. The better the deal gets, the more people join as they campaign passes the point where they jump in. Now even more people have an interest to get yet more people in to make it an even better deal, etc., etc. .
The Malifaux Kickstarter doesn't give incentives to go out and multiply. Even if you are a Through the Breach Backer, it doesn't make any difference to you if this Kickstarter does 30.000 or 30 Million. The deal's the same for you. You don't have any incentives to go root for the campaign, go tell your friends, etc., etc.. .
Likewise, there is no "sliding scale" where the deal slowly becomes better and better to get more people on board (elasticity of demand? - not an economist). It's just "this is what you get for price X" (which is JUST like an online store, btw). So there is no dynamic. There is no escalation. There is simply a static level of "purchases", exactly like you would get it with .. well .. an online store.
That is the difference. Giving away something cool to all pledgers "before day X" creates no dynamic. You either already qualify or you don't care.
Giving away something cool for all pledgers "if we reach amount X" creates a group dynamic among existing pledges to get there.
Yeah, but by the same note, you can tell someone this.
Hey man, I know you've been thinking about pledging for Through the Breach, if you pledge, even just 60 bucks now, you can get a free pdf version of their first adventure, why wait till the end, when you are going to miss out on all this stuff...
If the Malifaux kickstarter JUST ran on these thank you rewards, I would agree with you, but you're taking it as one system over another. This kickstarter is combining both of them. Yes, they have stretch goals, but at the same token, Wyrd is also thanking those that are helping them hit those stretch goals.
It goes back again to the idea of making this about the project, and not the backers. You want donate money? Awesome, here is what we'll give you for helping us out, and not waiting to clean up some sweet deals at the end. Remember the project is going to be funded at this point, and complaining about how they choose to thank their backers is pointless at this point. Let them run their kickstarter the way they want to.
Alfndrate wrote: Yeah, but by the same note, you can tell someone this.
Hey man, I know you've been thinking about pledging for Through the Breach, if you pledge, even just 60 bucks now, you can get a free pdf version of their first adventure, why wait till the end, when you are going to miss out on all this stuff...
If the Malifaux kickstarter JUST ran on these thank you rewards, I would agree with you, but you're taking it as one system over another. This kickstarter is combining both of them. Yes, they have stretch goals, but at the same token, Wyrd is also thanking those that are helping them hit those stretch goals.
It goes back again to the idea of making this about the project, and not the backers. You want donate money? Awesome, here is what we'll give you for helping us out, and not waiting to clean up some sweet deals at the end. Remember the project is going to be funded at this point, and complaining about how they choose to thank their backers is pointless at this point. Let them run their kickstarter the way they want to.
And when they ask, "Why am i not getting all the stuff you are? Why would I back now?" You of course respond with: but look at all these awesome stretch goals! A PDF at 250k!!! Now you can have 3 copies of the rules!!! And look!!! A pad of paper!!! And look!! A GenCon model they're tossing in because not many people bought them!! Isn't that exciting! What's that? The GW tree set is only $35 and comes with 3 trees that look the exact same? What?
This "about the project and not the backers" excuse is absurd. It should be about them both equally, if not more beneficially for the backers, because they are effectively the investors and the consumer.
And I disagree. It isn't pointless at all. Criticism is the only way they'll change any future ventures they may KS. This KS, if the stretch goals and attitude of the company didn't suck major balls, would be significantly higher than it is now.
Listen. Alf, it's clear no one is going to change your mind, but you're exactly the kind of consumer that NEEDS to be critical of this type of project and how they've approached it and not making justifications at every turn. I own a ton of Malifaux and have for a while. And that's why this frustrates me: it's the antithesis of a customer-centric venture and more or less smacks all of is that have been backing the miniatures game for the past 4 years squarely in the face.
Note: You can ask Cyporiean, but I had every chance to buy those trees at GenCon, and I didn't because I didn't think they were worth the price tag.
The idea is that it's pointless is because it's the same people arguing that this is the biggest feth up of the year, and that Wyrd is stupid for running it this way, and there is no one sitting here saying that this is the greatest thing ever. I have stated several times in this thread that I found issues with this kickstarter, and while they've alleviated my doubts, they might not have alleviated yours, that's fine, I'm sorry that they're not touching you in the way you wish to be touched.
And you're right, they are responding to criticism, you wanted stretch goals, they're putting up stretch goals. You can't blame them if you think the stretch goals are dumb, they obviously think it's something that people want. The pdf is something people are clamoring for, you want to know how quickly the pdf rules will probably be on one of the many sites? I give it a month from book release at the longest, even earlier if we get our books before September 2013. Plenty of people on Wyrd's [ur=http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?35246-The-Coming-Malifaux-RPG-Kickstarter]forums[/url] put their input in and what we're seeing as rewards and stretch goals are a lot of what people are voicing INCLUDING the pad of character sheets.
And just like people aren't going to change my mind on a project that I like (the RPG is something I've been waiting for since I started Malifaux, and in my mind they could be running it better, but it is still not a bad kickstarter). I'm not critical because there isn't anything majorly wrong with the kickstarter except maybe giving away Nightmare Trees...
Alfndrate wrote: It goes back again to the idea of making this about the project, and not the backers. You want donate money? Awesome, here is what we'll give you for helping us out, and not waiting to clean up some sweet deals at the end. Remember the project is going to be funded at this point, and complaining about how they choose to thank their backers is pointless at this point. Let them run their kickstarter the way they want to.
The portion in italics represents one of the things that has been so galling about this campaign (no offense to Alf, it's coming straight from the top here): the sanctimonious attitude that the way that Wyrd is running things is the proper way, while other campaigns have been variations on impropriety. What makes it so very galling is that the reality is very close to the complete opposite of what they claim.
As I pointed out before, the stretch goals are currently connected not to items that are being funded by the stretch goal funds, but to things that are either free or extremely low-cost and not needing development. The pad, the extra copies of miniatures that had the tooling already paid for, the PDFs, all of these require no additional or absolutely minimal investment.
We made our latest stretch goal of $90,000, which means that I'll be writing a full adventure trilogy and that many backers will get them added to their existing reward levels. Thanks to all of you for your support!
The three, 32-page adventures will be:
The Devil's Spine
The Mechanized Tomb
The Other Side of the Maelstrom
More details about these will come later.
I wanted to remind you guys that the next stretch goal is something kind of special. If we reach $100,000, I will set aside 300 copies of the Numenera corebook to give out to educators and libraries for free. Please help me reach this goal. I think it would be awesome to be able to do that!
Lastly, if you're coming to GenCon, please consider stopping by my panel at 2 pm on Thursday. The room is Capitol II, in the Westin. I'll be talking all about Numenera!
First, let's take a moment to condemn Emmanuel Goldstein here for "running his campaign like a store". How dare that fascist bastard donate to "educators and libraries"! Unclean!
Moving along, notice how clear exactly where the money from the stretch goals is headed is made: "If we reach $100,000, I will set aside 300 copies of the Numenera corebook to give out to educators and libraries for free."
Well, we made it to $100,000. I'm completely blown away! Thank you for your support. Now, thanks to you, next year I'll be able to make Numenera free to 300 educators and libraries. I'll create a way for teachers and librarians to submit their requests on my website, but that won't likely happen until we're closer to the book's actual release.
We're still shooting for $120,000 and the bestiary. But later today, I'll be adding new stretch goals as well. I do pay attention to the goals suggested in the comments here, so if you have an idea, don't hesitate to throw it out there.
If I could make one request of you guys, it would be to post general questions about reward levels or whatnot in the comments rather than sending them to me directly, because many of them have been asked before (I am also putting together an FAQ). I know that the stretch goal rewards have made some of this more complicated than it was at the beginning. If you do have something you need to contact me directly about, please use the contact me form on my website rather than Kickstarter messages. It's just sooooo much easier for me to check my own email than to come to Kickstarter to look for them, particularly because I am traveling at the moment (and will be for the next few weeks--GenCon, FanExpo Canada, and DragonCon! Come and see me at one of these shows! I'm doing Numenera talks at all of them.)
We made it to $160,000 for the Numenera Kickstarter campaign. Thanks to you guys, the Ninth World Bestiary will now be a bigger book, and in color. Even though I had said 128 pages, to thank you guys, and show you how much I appreciate your support, I'm going to make it 160 pages. I think it's going to be an amazing book. This book is added to the rewards of all backers pledging $200 or more. Everyone else can add it to their existing rewards by adding $40 to their pledge (+$10 more for customers outside of North America, for shipping costs).
I've also added a new stretch goal. Yes, we're still going to do free HD wallpapers from Numenera art at $180,000, but I've decided to slip in a new one at $170,000. (I warned you that I might.) If we get to $170,000, we'll do a PC version of the app as well as one for Android and iOS, and you'll be able to choose which one you want.
So help spread the word. Still plenty of cool stuff coming with the stretch goals, and there are a lot of people out there who haven't heard about Numenera yet.
Thanks SO MUCH for your support.
At $160,000 we not only know that there will be a bestiary, (another stretch goal converts it form black and white to full color) and we also know how many pages it will be!
EricJ wrote:Like we've said over and over, the point of this kickstarter is to make the BEST RPG we can, not to run an online discount shop for a month to pull in quick funds. We have no interest in undercutting/competing with your local gaming stores, so we're staying focused on that goal of making a better RPG, not just making more sales that simply all go back into paying for those stretch goal items.
Got that? They're "staying focused on that goal of making a better RPG"... they're not going to say exactly how, that would be improper, no doubt somehow "undercutting/competing with your local gaming store". But why not make things more specific? Link stretch goals to specific improvements to the base game and the product that will eventually hit the shelves?
Dunno. But certainly one good reason immediately comes to mind: oversight. If Monte Cook doesn't donate those books, he's failing to come through. If the bestiary comes out at only 70 pages, he's in trouble. if it's in black and white to save money, etc, etc.
By contrast look at what Wyrd has actually promised to make: players and master's books, a deck of cards, one (1) adventure and three miniatures. Oh, and some dolls. Can't forget the dolls. So at the end of the campaign Wyrd will have something like $150,000-200,000 to do whatever they want with. how will the backers know if they waste money, or, more likely, money from the campaign ends up being co-mingled with general operating costs? Will there be some sort of accounting made?
Look, none of the problems this campaign has are unfixable. There just doesn't seem to be any recognition on the part of Wyrd that these problems exist, much less interest in fixing them.
Currently, I'm in theThrough the Breach kickstarter so I get the 'thank you bonuses'. However, I'm also in for the Kingdom Death kickstarter (and they are offering lots of cool stuff that I could get if I stopped pledging for Through the Breach). Time will tell whether this kickstarter keeps my cash.
What irritates me most is not what's on offer with the kickstarter, but the poor quality of updates and information (where are the miniatures or at least the 3D images?). It just isn't very interesting.
First, let's take a moment to condemn Emmanuel Goldstein here for "running his campaign like a store". How dare that fascist bastard donate to "educators and libraries"! Unclean!
Moving along, notice how clear exactly where the money from the stretch goals is headed is made: "If we reach $100,000, I will set aside 300 copies of the Numenera corebook to give out to educators and libraries for free."
To be fair, while 300 copies is a lot, it's basically advertising. I work on a graphic novel, which is much closer to standard library material than an RPG, and I still have no illusion that, if I'm "donating" my comic to a library, it's a calculated risk to get noticed. It's better than "donating" them to publishers, but, still.
Transparency is great, and it sounds like that RPG was good at that (and Wyrd could do better in this campaign, regarding transparency), but let's be honest here. If it were "$100k = $5k to libraries," that would be a very different story.
First, let's take a moment to condemn Emmanuel Goldstein here for "running his campaign like a store". How dare that fascist bastard donate to "educators and libraries"! Unclean!
Moving along, notice how clear exactly where the money from the stretch goals is headed is made: "If we reach $100,000, I will set aside 300 copies of the Numenera corebook to give out to educators and libraries for free."
To be fair, while 300 copies is a lot, it's basically advertising. I work on a graphic novel, which is much closer to standard library material than an RPG, and I still have no illusion that, if I'm "donating" my comic to a library, it's a calculated risk to get noticed. It's better than "donating" them to publishers, but, still.
Transparency is great, and it sounds like that RPG was good at that (and Wyrd could do better in this campaign, regarding transparency), but let's be honest here. If it were "$100k = $5k to libraries," that would be a very different story.
A fair point for what it's worth, but you might be missing the forest for the trees. Also, while the risk may be calculated, it's still a) an expenditure, and b) not something anyone else is doing. If we presume (as people have done fairly often in this thread) that a fair price for Core Rulebooks is $60, then this represents the charitable contribution of $18,000 worth (retail value) of materials.
More to the point, it's after all the specificity that is the important point there, beyond the fairly sizable gift. Stretch goal X means A happens, Stretch goal Y pays for development of B and Stretch goal Z adds C to the retail core rulebook.
That's how venture capitol works, that's how kickstarter is supposed to work, and it's very, very much not how Wyrd is choosing to do business.
I was seriously considering Malifaux, and so was of course interested in this kickstarter. But for some reason, Alfndrate you're using their own negative language about fence-sitters like myself, about "waiting to clean up on freebies". How about, I wasn't sure about pledging, and wanted to see the stretch goals, and didn't get it in week 1? So, they use the same tactic in week 2?
The kind of negative language they, and you, are using about potential backers such as myself is foolish to say the least. As a result, I definitely won't be backing this project, and at this point I don't think I'll be posting in this thread again, either. The inability to take feedback and the lashing out at potential customers is rather shocking, and has put me off of this project completely.
That's something you can certainly base your decision on, RiTides. Personally, I'm not one to care about personalities. Romeo from BattleFoam could do a kickstarter and my decision to back it would have the same criteria as Malifaux or any other. Are they producing something I want? And am I getting my money's worth?
But critics do have a point, Wyrd is shooting themselves in the foot on this and I really don't understand why.
Just an update for everyone:
This is thread has lost a lot of it's purpose, and I'm not placing the blame on anyone. This is to update people on the news relating to Through the Breach. That is my job as the original poster. While I am a henchman for Wyrd, I'm not an official employee, so my answers and responses in this thread are opinions and not fact (unless I'm quoting something from the Kickstarter).
If you have grievances about the kickstarter, you can ask questions and post complaints on the kickstarter comment section here . You can pledge a dollar, gain access to the comment section, and retract your pledge if you feel that this isn't the kickstarter for you. Or you can sign up on Wyrd's forums and ask any questions in the Through the Breach thread here.
Alfndrate wrote: Just an update for everyone:
This is thread has lost a lot of it's purpose, and I'm not placing the blame on anyone. This is to update people on the news relating to Through the Breach. That is my job as the original poster. While I am a henchman for Wyrd, I'm not an official employee, so my answers and responses in this thread are opinions and not fact (unless I'm quoting something from the Kickstarter).
If you have grievances about the kickstarter, you can ask questions and post complaints on the kickstarter comment section here . You can pledge a dollar, gain access to the comment section, and retract your pledge if you feel that this isn't the kickstarter for you. Or you can sign up on Wyrd's forums and ask any questions in the Through the Breach thread here.
I have been. They respond to very, very little. I do plan on retracting my $1 pledge unless something changes. This thread is intended to discuss said Kickstarter, which is what we've been doing politely but critically. This thread has NOT lost its purpose.
Alf sent me a PM which I appreciate... I just didn't appreciate it being insinuated that I / folks like me were just waiting to clean up on freebies!
I'm glad you're keeping Dakka updated on this, and while I am not at all happy with Wyrd, particularly their language towards fence-sitters, I am still an interested observer of their products.
This KS won't be for me, but one day a Mr. Chompy Bits model may be
RiTides wrote: ... I just didn't appreciate it being insinuated that I / folks like me were just waiting to clean up on freebies! ... I am not at all happy with Wyrd, particularly their language towards fence-sitters...
I agree. And, as I mentioned initially, I simply wasn't aware of this early on because I happened to be pre-occupied with RL. It happens. I'm not "dawdling" and I do not like the Kickstarter with Kickstarter tactic. More importantly, I don't appreciate the tone and insunutations, especially when they are asking for my pledge to support their endeavor. At this point, I'm not too impressed and do not plan on pledging.
But SO WHAT if people DO want to see what freebies a KS campaign comes up with? Who is Wyrd to be the barometer of the "right" way to run a KS campaign and belittle those that have been "spoiled" by all the cool Kickstarters that HAVE offered freebies. They may not agree with offering extras, or be prepared to do so, but they don't need to belittle the people that DO appreciate the extras and pledge based on them. There are different types of consumers out there. Alienating any of them is just short-sighted and foolish.
Oh, and if they don't intend to undercut shops, why should I pledge now? Are they offering much more of interest? Signifigant discounts that would undercut shops? They've reached their funding goal and I'll just get it when it hits the streets if I'm still interested.
RiTides wrote: ... I just didn't appreciate it being insinuated that I / folks like me were just waiting to clean up on freebies! ... I am not at all happy with Wyrd, particularly their language towards fence-sitters...
I agree. And, as I mentioned initially, I simply wasn't aware of this early on because I happened to be pre-occupied with RL. It happens. I'm not "dawdling" and I do not like the Kickstarter with Kickstarter tactic. More importantly, I don't appreciate the tone and insunutations, especially when they are asking for my pledge to support their endeavor. At this point, I'm not too impressed and do not plan on pledging.
But SO WHAT if people DO want to see what freebies a KS campaign comes up with? Who is Wyrd to be the barometer of the "right" way to run a KS campaign and belittle those that have been "spoiled" by all the cool Kickstarters that HAVE offered freebies. They may not agree with offering extras, or be prepared to do so, but they don't need to belittle the people that DO appreciate the extras and pledge based on them. There are different types of consumers out there. Alienating any of them is just short-sighted and foolish.
Oh, and if they don't intend to undercut shops, why should I pledge now? Are they offering much more of interest? Signifigant discounts that would undercut shops? They've reached their funding goal and I'll just get it when it hits the streets if I'm still interested.
Where has Wyrd belittled people who want freebies or called people spoiled?
I'm not trying to argue the point either way, this is an honest question. I've kept up on the updates, but there's nothing like that there, and I'm not terribly up on everything so I would appreciate it if somebody could quote/link exactly where they did this? And yeah, I know they're giving out "thank you's" to early backers, but there are also stretch goals and this could just be a tactic to keep people interested during the busy holiday season. So, if somebody wouldn't mind telling me where the statement that they look down on people who want freebies comes from I would appreciate it, it could help me make my own decision.
Ozymandias wrote: This thread is stupid. Everyone has made their point and any more arguing either way is pretty futile. Back it or don't, just shut up about it.
I think you're missing the point of an online forum.
If you don't like to discuss things in general... don't go to forums!!!
If you don't like to discuss the Malifaux Kickstarter in particular... don't click on this thread!!
Where has Wyrd belittled people who want freebies or called people spoiled?
I'm not trying to argue the point either way, this is an honest question. I've kept up on the updates, but there's nothing like that there, and I'm not terribly up on everything so I would appreciate it if somebody could quote/link exactly where they did this? And yeah, I know they're giving out "thank you's" to early backers, but there are also stretch goals and this could just be a tactic to keep people interested during the busy holiday season. So, if somebody wouldn't mind telling me where the statement that they look down on people who want freebies comes from I would appreciate it, it could help me make my own decision.
I'd be interested in this info as well. I assume its somewhere on thier own forum, but as much as I like and enjoy Malifaux, I'm just not getting much enthusiasm about this KS.
As far as I can remember, I'm the one who made the post about people wanting freebees but I don't remember belittling anyone. Still, I don't generally read Malifaux's forums or the posts on the kickstarter page so maybe somebody else has mentioned this.
Guys, the quote of me at the top of this page was taken out of context. I posted that while saying "But I appreciate Alf/Breotan's efforts" and will consider Malifaux in future, just not this KS.
As for the language, I was responding to Alf's, which I believe he posted mirroring Wyrd's. I have no idea if that's true... and honestly don't care at this point .
I was re-reading the Kickstarter page for this project and noticed something I missed the first time through.
"Male and Female Multi-Pose Minis: These multi-part plastic kits include weapons, pose, and clothing detail options to allow you to customize your character's model for use in Through the Breach or the Malifaux skirmish game."
It sounds like these models might be customisable to the point where with some magnitization you could basically have a model that visably advances as your character advances in the game. If this is the case it could be a very neat line of minatures. I might actually submit a question about it for the next Breach Side chat.
Also just so everyone remembers, the next Breach Side chat with Mack is this Wednesday at 11:00 am PST.
Catyrpelius wrote: I was re-reading the Kickstarter page for this project and noticed something I missed the first time through.
"Male and Female Multi-Pose Minis: These multi-part plastic kits include weapons, pose, and clothing detail options to allow you to customize your character's model for use in Through the Breach or the Malifaux skirmish game."
It sounds like these models might be customisable to the point where with some magnitization you could basically have a model that visably advances as your character advances in the game. If this is the case it could be a very neat line of minatures. I might actually submit a question about it for the next Breach Side chat.
Also just so everyone remembers, the next Breach Side chat with Mack is this Wednesday at 11:00 am PST.
Based on my experiences with their plastics so far, I think you'd have to be a REALLY talented or patient modeller to do that. Dont get me wrong; I'm very impressed with their plastics, but the joins are often very thin and would be an absolute bear to magnetize.
As to the questions regarding "belittling" from Wyrd: I don't know that it's been any sort of belitting on Wyrd's part. However, Wyrd has been very....adversarial...towards any criticism, and their response to it thusfar has pretty much been the "I'll take my ball home if you dont want to play with me" attitude, which is IMO immature and not at all customer-friendly. Basically, their attitude hasn't been "Oh you dont like it? What can we do to make you interested," but rather, "Oh you don't like it? Fine, we don't want your money".
Sadly, this attitude is pretty pervasive on the comments section for that kickstarter. Very few people commenting seem to care at all about any accountability for Wyrd. At this point, Wyrd has given next to nothing about specifics to this kickstarter. Compare it to the RPG that Buzz used as an exemplar earlier, and its worrysome that very few people find that a problem. Everyone ASSUMES the book will be around 300 pages. Why this assumption? None of the other Wyrd books are that long. Everyone ASSUMES the hardcover will be nice and well presented. Why this assumption? Wyrd doesn't have any other hardcovers, and therefore has no precedent for doing one. As far as concrete, printed information goes, we have a single table. That's it.
If Wyrd "doesn't want to use KS as a glorified Pre-order system or store" then why aren't they running it with the consumer-as-investor in mind? If you took their presentation to a bank, or an investment company, they'd be turned down. They've presented very little in the ways of concrete planning, which means they don't know (this is bad) or they don't think they need to be transparent with how they'll use the money (IMO this is worse). Are the folks at Wyrd going to take a consumer paid vacation to Hedonism in Jamaica? Who knows.
People are SO ready to jump down the throat of GW for ANYTHING perceived as a miscue, but when a smaller company does it, people simply fall in line like lemmings. Then, those of us that present valid criticisms and real concerns are ostracized for it. Blows my mind.
Ozymandias wrote: This thread is stupid. Everyone has made their point and any more arguing either way is pretty futile. Back it or don't, just shut up about it.
I think you're missing the point of an online forum.
If you don't like to discuss things in general... don't go to forums!!!
If you don't like to discuss the Malifaux Kickstarter in particular... don't click on this thread!!
This thread is in news and rumors, if you want to have a discussion, there is a forum for that. Arguing for 20 pages isn't a discussion anymore, it's everyone saying the same thing over and over again but in a slightly different way.
cincydooley wrote: People are SO ready to jump down the throat of GW for ANYTHING perceived as a miscue, but when a smaller company does it, people simply fall in line like lemmings. Then, those of us that present valid criticisms and real concerns are ostracized for it. Blows my mind.
Wyrd fans are pretty hardcore defensive, mind. As much as I love the game of Malifaux, their forum is somewhere I massively avoid 'cos of this.
Agree with everything you said BTW. I've an interest in the RPG due to my love of the game, but I'll wait until I see it in a shop and have a look.
Sadly, this attitude is pretty pervasive on the comments section for that kickstarter. Very few people commenting seem to care at all about any accountability for Wyrd. At this point, Wyrd has given next to nothing about specifics to this kickstarter. Compare it to the RPG that Buzz used as an exemplar earlier, and its worrysome that very few people find that a problem. Everyone ASSUMES the book will be around 300 pages. Why this assumption? None of the other Wyrd books are that long. Everyone ASSUMES the hardcover will be nice and well presented. Why this assumption? Wyrd doesn't have any other hardcovers, and therefore has no precedent for doing one. As far as concrete, printed information goes, we have a single table. That's it.
If Wyrd "doesn't want to use KS as a glorified Pre-order system or store" then why aren't they running it with the consumer-as-investor in mind? If you took their presentation to a bank, or an investment company, they'd be turned down. They've presented very little in the ways of concrete planning, which means they don't know (this is bad) or they don't think they need to be transparent with how they'll use the money (IMO this is worse). Are the folks at Wyrd going to take a consumer paid vacation to Hedonism in Jamaica? Who knows.
I think this is a pretty good summation of the situation. I think Wyrd is using the platform of Kickstarter to generate funds without the hard deadlines a true pre-order requires.
And, by intentionally targetting true believers, there will be less backlash if the finished product isn't as big/polished/on time as people expect. I doubt they'd think this way, but intetionally alienating the casual fan will help if there are serious problems down the line.
People are SO ready to jump down the throat of GW for ANYTHING perceived as a miscue, but when a smaller company does it, people simply fall in line like lemmings. Then, those of us that present valid criticisms and real concerns are ostracized for it. Blows my mind.
I think there are two factors behind that. The first is that GW has repeatedly shown a pretty cynical/indifferent attitude to it's customer base, making any misstep part of an established narrative. Smaller companies tend to have less history, and what they have tends to have strong positives to cling to.
The bigger factor is that GW is simply the manipulative on-and-off again girlfriend most people have that they can't get over. We want to love GW, and we want GW to love us back. GW doesn't, and so while we spend money and dwell on them, we take whatever petty retribution we can.
New companies are more like a puppy love. We haven't seen the flaws, and the relationship is more open on both sides. People are willing overlook bad things, because the good things are still new and exciting.
This thread is in news and rumors, if you want to have a discussion, there is a forum for that. Arguing for 20 pages isn't a discussion anymore, it's everyone saying the same thing over and over again but in a slightly different way.
Have you ever noticed that it's always the side getting pummeled that plays this card?
Not picking on ya, just something that we're all guilty of.
And if novelty were a pre-requisite for discusion, the internet would simply not exist.
I think Cincy brings up a good point with the book size. I quoted out many of the RPGs that Wyrd will be competing with and the size of their books. I think it is highly unlikely for Wyrd to produce a single 300 page book. Rising Powers was 254 pages, and that seemed a little thick for what Wyrd tends to produce.
You're more likely to see 150 to 200 pages per book, but that is simply basing this on what Wyrd has produced in the past as well as what competitors are putting out there. The Hardcover might suck, but all of their soft cover books have been fantastic in quality and production (barring the concept art that plagues most of book 2), I have bends in the covers from being an idiot, but they flatten out, they're good to go, and nothing is wrong with my books, all are still in good condition despite being used weekly for almost 4 months straight.
The lack of info on the books are what killed it for me,
I was really interested in it, waited eagerly for the KS to go live so I could dive in.....
and no details, no info, nothing. I even PMd them and while the answered they didn't answer the question so I sadly pulled out
(if they'd even comitted to B&W & 100 pages for each books I'd have stayed)
Now with the potential bonuses falling away I can't see any reason to come back even if they do start to put out specifics
(yes I could have hung on to the last day in the hope info would appear, but it just seems wrong to do so)
and it just seems so strange, Evil Baby Orphanage was much better put together (not talking about free stuff, just the whole way it was set out and run)
I think the major difference between EBO and Through the Breach is when they decided to come out with the kickstarter. EBO was practically finished, and they simply needed funding to get it printed.
Through the Breach is probably at it's early stages and still have a good 4 months before alpha playtesting starts. This is not to say that backers won't start seeing things in January in the playtest forums, but based on previous book releases, major beta testing didn't take place until a few months before release.
Alfndrate wrote: I think Cincy brings up a good point with the book size. I quoted out many of the RPGs that Wyrd will be competing with and the size of their books. I think it is highly unlikely for Wyrd to produce a single 300 page book. Rising Powers was 254 pages, and that seemed a little thick for what Wyrd tends to produce.
You're more likely to see 150 to 200 pages per book, but that is simply basing this on what Wyrd has produced in the past as well as what competitors are putting out there. The Hardcover might suck, but all of their soft cover books have been fantastic in quality and production (barring the concept art that plagues most of book 2), I have bends in the covers from being an idiot, but they flatten out, they're good to go, and nothing is wrong with my books, all are still in good condition despite being used weekly for almost 4 months straight.
And this is where the "value for money" question comes into play. I think, as the gold standard for RPG core book publishing, one has to look at the Pathfinder Core Book. It is a monstrous 575 pages of full color RPG bliss. The book really is amazing. And the MSRP is only $50 bucks. And you can routinely find it online for $30 bucks.
I realize Paizo is larger than Wyrd, but it's hard to argue with the value in that book. Bear in mind that I'm not really an RPGer; Malifaux is the one miniatures game my wife will play, so due to that it gets played a lot and we both quite like it. I was interested in the RPG simply to read it and any exclusive models that they'd offer were going to be a bonus. But as it stands, for me they're simply being too quiet about their intentions. I don't understand why, because they've typically been much more customer-friendly. Those contrasts from their typical business as usual lead me to believe they don't really have a plan. And that's concerning.
Remember, there is no guarantee for delivery of product on Kickstarter. I'm not saying that Wyrd is going to shirk their consumer, but man...the lack of information just seems shady.
Oh, and BTW agreed with the present malifaux books. I really love them and all of mine have held up rather well.
Alfndrate wrote: I think Cincy brings up a good point with the book size. I quoted out many of the RPGs that Wyrd will be competing with and the size of their books. I think it is highly unlikely for Wyrd to produce a single 300 page book. Rising Powers was 254 pages, and that seemed a little thick for what Wyrd tends to produce.
You're more likely to see 150 to 200 pages per book, but that is simply basing this on what Wyrd has produced in the past as well as what competitors are putting out there. The Hardcover might suck, but all of their soft cover books have been fantastic in quality and production (barring the concept art that plagues most of book 2), I have bends in the covers from being an idiot, but they flatten out, they're good to go, and nothing is wrong with my books, all are still in good condition despite being used weekly for almost 4 months straight.
And this is where the "value for money" question comes into play. I think, as the gold standard for RPG core book publishing, one has to look at the Pathfinder Core Book. It is a monstrous 575 pages of full color RPG bliss. The book really is amazing. And the MSRP is only $50 bucks. And you can routinely find it online for $30 bucks.
I realize Paizo is larger than Wyrd, but it's hard to argue with the value in that book. Bear in mind that I'm not really an RPGer; Malifaux is the one miniatures game my wife will play, so due to that it gets played a lot and we both quite like it. I was interested in the RPG simply to read it and any exclusive models that they'd offer were going to be a bonus. But as it stands, for me they're simply being too quiet about their intentions. I don't understand why, because they've typically been much more customer-friendly. Those contrasts from their typical business as usual lead me to believe they don't really have a plan. And that's concerning.
Remember, there is no guarantee for delivery of product on Kickstarter. I'm not saying that Wyrd is going to shirk their consumer, but man...the lack of information just seems shady.
Oh, and BTW agreed with the present malifaux books. I really love them and all of mine have held up rather well.
The Pathfinder Core is the like that perfectly marbled Ribeye steak. I find almost nothing wrong with that book (except the back binding in my broke after a month of infrequent use, but I super glued it lol). It's got full color, great pricing, and all the fluff and crunch you want in an RPG book, and it was one of the ones I quoted on like page 3 .
Um... As to the communications issue, I think Wyrd is experiencing growing pains. As it stands right now, I believe Wyrd HQ and the warehouse are in Kennesaw, Georgia just outside of Atlanta. This is where Nathan Caroland, and other workers are. And then, 3 hours behind them in Sacremento is the RPG office, where Mack, EricJ, Justin, and maybe Jac work. Just a personal anecdote I work for a company here in Canton, Ohio that has it's parent office in Southern California, and we experience frustrating communication errors due to time zone differences and communicating purely by email and phone (instead of walking down the hall). And like I said on Wyrd's forums, should they not deliver the product... Well Atlanta is only so big .
I'll keep posting updates like I have, and I continute to urge people to ask their questions on the KS or Wyrd's forums where they can be handled better than just me.
And to be fair, Cincy's point about book size is valid, and warrants discussion.
I meant that genuinely (not sarcastic). Text is so hard to convey tone in!
I know you meant it genuinely, but I was sitting writing up my post to Cincy, and was like, "feth I said I was just going to stay out of this gak and just post updates." As long as there good discussions, I'll keep posting more than just updates.
From the first Breach Side Chat, it sounds like alot of this is still up in the air. Even though they aren't being particularly transparent about it I got the feeling that the more money they have pledged the more they intend to include in the base books. It could have been me infering to much though.
I wouldn't nessacarily be upset by a small page count RPG, if they still managed to get the essenace of Malifaux into it. It would almost be refreshing to not have to read 300+ pages of rules in order to run an RPG for my group.
Alfndrate wrote: I think the major difference between EBO and Through the Breach is when they decided to come out with the kickstarter. EBO was practically finished, and they simply needed funding to get it printed.
Through the Breach is probably at it's early stages and still have a good 4 months before alpha playtesting starts. This is not to say that backers won't start seeing things in January in the playtest forums, but based on previous book releases, major beta testing didn't take place until a few months before release.
The thing is that really doesn't seem right. As several people pointed out earlier in the thread, the process of developing an RPG from scratch is a reaaaaaaaly long one. If they are still in the concept stage it's very difficult to imagine how they are going to produce a polished project ready to ship in the time frame they have set.
Which naturally leads to the question "if they don't know what's going to be in the books, how in the world did they generate the pricing of their rewards structures?", but that's a question doubtless no one can answer.
By the by, those who think that this discussion is contentious, take a gander at the comment section of the actual campaign; even the mildest complaints there seem to be met with some variety of "you don't like it? GTFO!"
Alfndrate wrote: I think the major difference between EBO and Through the Breach is when they decided to come out with the kickstarter. EBO was practically finished, and they simply needed funding to get it printed.
Through the Breach is probably at it's early stages and still have a good 4 months before alpha playtesting starts. This is not to say that backers won't start seeing things in January in the playtest forums, but based on previous book releases, major beta testing didn't take place until a few months before release.
The thing is that really doesn't seem right. As several people pointed out earlier in the thread, the process of developing an RPG from scratch is a reaaaaaaaly long one. If they are still in the concept stage it's very difficult to imagine how they are going to produce a polished project ready to ship in the time frame they have set.
Which naturally leads to the question "if they don't know what's going to be in the books, how in the world did they generate the pricing of their rewards structures?", but that's a question doubtless no one can answer.
By the by, those who think that this discussion is contentious, take a gander at the comment section of the actual campaign; even the mildest complaints there seem to be met with some variety of "you don't like it? GTFO!"
I know. I don't know why I'm still posting in that. I really should just back away, but my irritation with this Kickstarter won't seem to let me....
Which naturally leads to the question "if they don't know what's going to be in the books, how in the world did they generate the pricing of their rewards structures?", but that's a question doubtless no one can answer.
Exactly.
See, IMO, they should have a SET "phase 1" for this RPG. That would have been the baseline for the RPG. They should be able to state that the RPG will be XX number of pages long and will have an MSRP of $XX.XX dollars. Then you fund to that point, set a REALISTIC funding level to get you to that point, because they clearly haven't set an artificially low funding level so that they can provide awesome 'stretch' goals like other KSes have.
All the extra money? THAT'S when you say, "At 300k, we'll push development of 'The Breach's Outhouse,' the first campaign supplement to Through the Breach, and as a STRETCH GOAL (I know, these seem to be anathema to Wyrd) all of our backers at SWEET SPOT backing level will receive a free PDF of 'The Breach's Outhouse."
But they aren't doing any of that.
So that means their entire campaign is predicated on the fact that there are a bunch of feverant fans that will just throw down money sight unseen. Basically, they're taking complete advantage of that loyalty, and sadly many of the loyal refuse to see that.
In response to buzzsaw's comment on book size I'm just gonna throw this out there.
Endless: Fantasy Tactics's Kickstarter was something I worked on with the On the Lamb Games staff. There was a closed beta early summer for some DCMs, and at that point the rules were like 15 pages at most, and we had plans to flesh out the rest of the game up to the point we got to the kickstarter. I've only been involved with the actual rules writing, and not anything printer related, but the pdf document that backers are getting is slated for 150 pages. I'm sure that before the kickstarter was created (while it was still in drafting phase), Cy knew roughly how big the book was going to be based on budgets for printing, how big art was, etc...
While they may not have a lot in a big old folder that says, "Through the Breach files." I'm sure they have a good clue of the size of each book. But you could be entirely right, they could not know the size of the book.
Though if I remember correctly, we were looking at a hardcover printing for EFT, and to get an amazing deal at the printers, we'd have to get several hundred people to order the book. I think Wyrd might have that covered Printing costs aren't going to be as large as you might think.
Argh. I was just looking at the Guilds of Cadwallon Page and for some reason found myself reading their risks and challenges portion. It's pretty clear and, while unlikely, they list problems that can occur.
On the flip side, Wyrd's amounts to them saying, "We got this." Argh.
I keep finding things that are driving me nuts about this project and Wyrd's bizzare attitude!
cincydooley wrote: Argh. I was just looking at the Guilds of Cadwallon Page and for some reason found myself reading their risks and challenges portion. It's pretty clear and, while unlikely, they list problems that can occur.
On the flip side, Wyrd's amounts to them saying, "We got this." Argh.
I keep finding things that are driving me nuts about this project and Wyrd's bizzare attitude!
I dunno...
I just went and read the Risk/Challenges section for both projects. To me the GoC lists there only challange as China and customs other then that the two read pretty much the same, maybe Wyrd is planning on printing in the US. To be honest I'd be worried if a succesful company was worried that it couldn't delivere on a project.
cincydooley wrote: Argh. I was just looking at the Guilds of Cadwallon Page and for some reason found myself reading their risks and challenges portion. It's pretty clear and, while unlikely, they list problems that can occur.
On the flip side, Wyrd's amounts to them saying, "We got this." Argh.
I keep finding things that are driving me nuts about this project and Wyrd's bizzare attitude!
I dunno...
I just went and read the Risk/Challenges section for both projects. To me the GoC lists there only challange as China and customs other then that the two read pretty much the same, maybe Wyrd is planning on printing in the US. To be honest I'd be worried if a succesful company was worried that it couldn't delivere on a project.
I don't disagree with you, but look at the difference in the tone between the two. It's sorta huge.
Good news is that I received the answer regarding the Hannah miniature: it is not a Kickstarter exclusive. Bad news is the response I received was questionably polite. Unsurprising as it falls in line with the peculiar attitude Wyrd has been operating with throughout the campaign.
Alfndrate wrote: In response to buzzsaw's comment on book size I'm just gonna throw this out there.
Endless: Fantasy Tactics's Kickstarter was something I worked on with the On the Lamb Games staff. There was a closed beta early summer for some DCMs, and at that point the rules were like 15 pages at most, and we had plans to flesh out the rest of the game up to the point we got to the kickstarter. I've only been involved with the actual rules writing, and not anything printer related, but the pdf document that backers are getting is slated for 150 pages. I'm sure that before the kickstarter was created (while it was still in drafting phase), Cy knew roughly how big the book was going to be based on budgets for printing, how big art was, etc...
Aye, I got quotes for a 200pg full color hardcover print job before we did the Kickstarter so I'd know how much that would cost.
I'll just post the reply I received. I wasn't going to, because I didn't want to stir the pot anymore, but here it is:
Hi Sean,
By definition, special edition means that the model may be available during special promotions at some point in the future.
This applies to any item we have labeled as "Special Edition." Any item that is labeled "Kickstarter Exclusive" will be available exclusively through Kickstarter.
Hope this helps! Please let us know if you have any more questions we can help with.
Jacqulyn
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, and its entirely possible it was unintended, but my first read through of it left with a sour taste; just seems like the first line is a unnecessiarly snarky. I'm probably overly sensitive.
I think any statement that uses the phrase "by definition" and then makes up a definition is a little off.
"Special Edition" has no fixed meaning, which is why asking for clarification is necessary.
You're right, in that at this point we're going to assign tone to Wyrd's stuff that might not be there, but a much better way to write it would be:
"Dear Sean,
Any Wyrd product labelled "Special Edition" is only available during special promotions, but is not limited to any one promotion or year unless further described. Any Kickstarter item labelled "Special Edition" may be available during future promotions. Any item that is labeled "Kickstarter Exclusive" will be available exclusively through a Kickstarter promotion, now or in the future.
Hope this helps! Please let us know if you have any more questions we can help with. Jacqulyn"
Jac's generally friendly when I email her. Special edition models have come out like the easter gremlin models, the dead justice box*, Miss Terious, Santana Ortega, etc... These have been proven to make comebacks... the gremlins and Dead Justice were recently for sale during the birthday sale, Miss Terious was the GenCon special mini (like Miss Demeanor, etc..) and was offered to early backers, and Santana Ortega which was a special edition Henchman Only model is being given in some places as prize support (Dakka Painting Challenge, and I believe GenCon Tournaments).
Nightmare Editions are generally GenCon exclusive models like Nightmare LCB, Teddy, and Hanging Trees. Though we see the trees being given as stretch goals now.
Though making that clear distinction now is kind of important. I'm glad you emailed that reply, because it is certainly something to keep in mind for future "Special Edition" releases.
*I can't remember if Dead Justice was a Nightmare edition box, but I believe it was a special GenCon box last year.
I'll just post the reply I received. I wasn't going to, because I didn't want to stir the pot anymore, but here it is:
Hi Sean,
By definition, special edition means that the model may be available during special promotions at some point in the future.
This applies to any item we have labeled as "Special Edition." Any item that is labeled "Kickstarter Exclusive" will be available exclusively through Kickstarter.
Hope this helps! Please let us know if you have any more questions we can help with.
Jacqulyn
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, and its entirely possible it was unintended, but my first read through of it left with a sour taste; just seems like the first line is a unnecessiarly snarky. I'm probably overly sensitive.
This actually is in line with some responses I've gotten back from Jac concerning other things. I don't think your reading to much into it, but I do think its unintential.
Back when I first started dealing with Wyrd, when they started making the transition from a minatures company to a game company, they were a pleasure to deal with. They were activaly involved in what their volunteers were running and were willing to support you. At some point thats changed and I think alot of that has to do with growth. They want to be one of the "Big Boys" in the gaming industry and in their mind they have to act like it.
One of the things thats starting to get to me about this project is the lack of communication and the inconsistancy of it. I love their Breach Side Chats, I think they were a great idea. I like that they have a person at least partialy dedicated to running the kickstarter and answering questions. I don't like that, that person only puts out 1 update a day but only during working hours and only answers a handful of questions that are being raised. Kickstarter by its nature isn't a place to be cryptic, doing that will only piss people off and its unnessacary. I would wager that most of us in this thread would actually like the project to succed and succed well, because I think most of us actually want to see a Malifaux RPG. I also think that it's pretty much aggreed that this is a poorly run kickstarter.
Jac's generally friendly when I email her. Special edition models have come out like the easter gremlin models, the dead justice box*, Miss Terious, Santana Ortega, etc... These have been proven to make comebacks... the gremlins and Dead Justice were recently for sale during the birthday sale, Miss Terious was the GenCon special mini (like Miss Demeanor, etc..) and was offered to early backers, and Santana Ortega which was a special edition Henchman Only model is being given in some places as prize support (Dakka Painting Challenge, and I believe GenCon Tournaments).
Nightmare Editions are generally GenCon exclusive models like Nightmare LCB, Teddy, and Hanging Trees. Though we see the trees being given as stretch goals now.
Though making that clear distinction now is kind of important. I'm glad you emailed that reply, because it is certainly something to keep in mind for future "Special Edition" releases.
*I can't remember if Dead Justice was a Nightmare edition box, but I believe it was a special GenCon box last year.
Yeah, I'm afraid I'm reading too far into it, but whatev.
Dead Justice was a Con Exclusive Two (i think) years ago, but was not the "Nightmare" model. Really great boxed set too!
Personally, I'd love to see them do a plastic re-release of the Nightmare Lord Chompy and change him up just a enough that it maintains the "special" of the metal LCB and doesn't disenfranchise those that have him. I usually wouldn't care, but the Nightmare LCB is so superior to the normal release that I think everyone deserves a chance to have him.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Alf, but Hanna is NOT in the new book, is she? If not, I'd have to presume that she's in the NEXT book (gencon 2013 release?) and as such it would make sense that she'd be another convention special ed miniature.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Catyrpelius wrote: [ I would wager that most of us in this thread would actually like the project to succed and succed well, because I think most of us actually want to see a Malifaux RPG. I also think that it's pretty much aggreed that this is a poorly run kickstarter.
YES! Much like Fox Mulder, I want to believe...err...support.
I just need more from the company. Not more freebies. Not more 'stuff.' More from Wyrd.
I know this past year was Hanging Trees and Miss Terious, I started Malifaux the summer of GenCon 2011, and I'm almost certain dead justice was the special mini (not nightmare edition) from that year.
I agree on Nightmare LCB, I picked up a Nightmare Teddy (even though I have 2 regular ones already) just because the difference in sculpts is worth the price, and I'd love a Nightmare LCB because at my old store we were mostly Guild players with me and one other player being the weird oddities, and my new store Neverborn are the faction of choice, so I'd love an LCB/Dreamer to make me different lol /hipster.
She has no rules, and I haven't heard any rumblings around the henchman forums about book 5, so she's at least in the next book, which might be focused on filling in pieces of the outcasts, but who knows going off of the fact that hanna is Freikorps if I remember her description from the KS (can't view it at work).
Alfndrate wrote: I know this past year was Hanging Trees and Miss Terious, I started Malifaux the summer of GenCon 2011, and I'm almost certain dead justice was the special mini (not nightmare edition) from that year.
I agree on Nightmare LCB, I picked up a Nightmare Teddy (even though I have 2 regular ones already) just because the difference in sculpts is worth the price, and I'd love a Nightmare LCB because at my old store we were mostly Guild players with me and one other player being the weird oddities, and my new store Neverborn are the faction of choice, so I'd love an LCB/Dreamer to make me different lol /hipster.
She has no rules, and I haven't heard any rumblings around the henchman forums about book 5, so she's at least in the next book, which might be focused on filling in pieces of the outcasts, but who knows going off of the fact that hanna is Freikorps if I remember her description from the KS (can't view it at work).
This year, 2012, at Gencon The Hanging Trees were the purchaseable limited edition model. Miss Terious was the model you got if you spent over $100 either at Gencon or on their website during Gencon.
Last year, 2011, at Gencon the Dead Justice and Teddy were the purchaseble limited edition models. Miss Demeaner was the model you got if you spent over $100 either at Gencon or on their website during Gencon.
The year before, 2010, at Gencon Lord Chompy Bits was the purchaseable limited edition model. Miss Pack was the model you got for spending over $100 either at Gencon or on their website during Gencon.
Since I'm on the topic:
- Miss Pack was also included in some box sets, so if your FLGS has some old stock on the self you might find one.
- At the 2011 Gencon Wyrd also releasied 4 special edition Teddies for their Puppet Wars game. Each one was given out at a particular time during Gencon, it was like a mini scavanger hunt. You could also buy them last year around this time in very limited quantities.
- This year Wyrd realesed a limited edition Ortega model, ment as a Henchman only model.
- This year also saw the release of an alternate Warpig and Slop Hauler themed for Easter, one was a chicken the other was dressed in a bunny suit.
- The Gremlinette was their original limited edition model.
Whatever you can say about Wyrd, they really like their LE stuff. Their also reasonably good about making it fairly hard to get.
Something just recently occurred to me: Wyrd is determined "not to run their campaign as a store" (an injunction I think they have wholly failed at, but tomato-tomahto), but the fact is, they actually have loads of things that people want that aren't actually commercially available, eh?
All the "special edition" stuff is not sold either on-line through them or through LGS, right? Henchman exclusive miniatures and so on? Convention exclusives? That Ortega alt-sculpt?
So they have tons of this stuff (that never goes into stores, and therefore cannot undercut anyone), why not add it to the kickstarter?
In fairness, I can think of plenty of reasons to to. None I find particularly convincing, but there are reasons.
Though that ties into the oddest defense of the current campaign structure I have noticed showing up: that Wyrd is actively shooting for $250,000 or so. That is, they don't want to make more then that. I haven't listened to the various podcasts, but I can't imagine they actually have said that, have they? It's just puzzling there this notion would come from.
Buzzsaw wrote: Something just recently occurred to me: Wyrd is determined "not to run their campaign as a store" (an injunction I think they have wholly failed at, but tomato-tomahto), but the fact is, they actually have loads of things that people want that aren't actually commercially available, eh?
All the "special edition" stuff is not sold either on-line through them or through LGS, right? Henchman exclusive miniatures and so on? Convention exclusives? That Ortega alt-sculpt?
So they have tons of this stuff (that never goes into stores, and therefore cannot undercut anyone), why not add it to the kickstarter?
In fairness, I can think of plenty of reasons to to. None I find particularly convincing, but there are reasons.
Though that ties into the oddest defense of the current campaign structure I have noticed showing up: that Wyrd is actively shooting for $250,000 or so. That is, they don't want to make more then that. I haven't listened to the various podcasts, but I can't imagine they actually have said that, have they? It's just puzzling there this notion would come from.
From my experiances with them, the limited edition stuff that they actually offer from time to time is actually limited in number. Ocassionally they will have an online sale and sell off some of the remainder they had, but usually once its gone its gone.
I think Wyrd's definaition of running this project as a store is different from most other people's. What I think they ment, and this is mostly a WAG, that outside their reward levels you wouldn't be able to add things to your pledge that would be avalibe in a store. Meening no extra copies of books, models or fate decks.
Hanging Trees and Miss Terious were for sale at GenCon and online during GenCon, there is only 1 Henchman Exclusive mini that was the Santana Ortega, who is being used as Prize Support now after it was given out to Henchman who worked enough at GenCon, or ran a certain amount of Summer Campaign stuff this summer.
Santana will probably be available within the next year for some sale or it will be included as a part of the rumored "passport to Malifaux" that was rumored around GenCon's time, and those that participated in tournaments at GenCon got stickers for the passport, but nothing has come of it yet (still in the works).
Many of the older LE stuff is very rare (Nightmare Lord Chompy Bits being the biggest), and they're not reproducing this stuff, thus keeping it at a certain level of rarity.
As it has been said, they are including all of the more recent special edition stuff in some form in the Kickstarter with the exception of Santana. Beyond various Wyrd official tournaments and the Dakka Painting Challenge which is officially sponsored by Wyrd.
Alfndrate wrote: Hanging Trees and Miss Terious were for sale at GenCon and online during GenCon, there is only 1 Henchman Exclusive mini that was the Santana Ortega, who is being used as Prize Support now after it was given out to Henchman who worked enough at GenCon, or ran a certain amount of Summer Campaign stuff this summer.
Or to folks that worked for other companies during the con and were able to organize swaps
Alfndrate wrote: Hanging Trees and Miss Terious were for sale at GenCon and online during GenCon, there is only 1 Henchman Exclusive mini that was the Santana Ortega, who is being used as Prize Support now after it was given out to Henchman who worked enough at GenCon, or ran a certain amount of Summer Campaign stuff this summer.
Or to folks that worked for other companies during the con and were able to organize swaps
Lol, I worked for Wyrd during GenCon, I got paid in Miss Terious models* >_<
I only got one from working. picking up Book 4 stuff and terraclips netted me 2 more... Play all the Miss Terious models!
Alfndrate wrote: Hanging Trees and Miss Terious were for sale at GenCon and online during GenCon, there is only 1 Henchman Exclusive mini that was the Santana Ortega, who is being used as Prize Support now after it was given out to Henchman who worked enough at GenCon, or ran a certain amount of Summer Campaign stuff this summer.
Or to folks that worked for other companies during the con and were able to organize swaps
Lol, I worked for Wyrd during GenCon, I got paid in Miss Terious models* >_<
I only got one from working. picking up Book 4 stuff and terraclips netted me 2 more... Play all the Miss Terious models!
Yeah, I got my Santana in the waning moments of GenCon. It was pretty glorious.
Alfndrate wrote: Hanging Trees and Miss Terious were for sale at GenCon and online during GenCon, there is only 1 Henchman Exclusive mini that was the Santana Ortega, who is being used as Prize Support now after it was given out to Henchman who worked enough at GenCon, or ran a certain amount of Summer Campaign stuff this summer.
Or to folks that worked for other companies during the con and were able to organize swaps
Lol, I worked for Wyrd during GenCon, I got paid in Miss Terious models* >_<
I only got one from working. picking up Book 4 stuff and terraclips netted me 2 more... Play all the Miss Terious models!
Yeah, I got my Santana in the waning moments of GenCon. It was pretty glorious.
Lol, One of my guild players at my old store was really upset that I am holding on to my Santana lol. He has the Ortegas and I won't trade him for it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Get a slight insight to the books guys. Look's like we're going to be getting the same quality for the RPG books that we have for the Malifaux books. So they will be of good quality, like Cincy and I have said, these books are of high quality.
December 10th - over 575% of funding goal
Hi everyone!
Day Thirteen is coming to a close, so it’s time for the Daily Update!
Many have been asking what the RPG books will be like. The books can only get bigger and better as the Kickstarter grows, but we’re excited to give you a snapshot of what we think the books will look like right now. The softback Fate Master’s Guide and Player’s Guide binding will be the same as the Malifaux books. Likely, the binding for the hardback will be sewn, and we’re planning cover to cover full-color pages in the softback books and the hardback Kickstarter Exclusive volume.
You might still be wondering about the page count for the books. That number will see the most change based on the Kickstarter’s progress. Thanks to all the support you’ve shown already, we have an all-star team of writers lined up to make this one of our most incredible books ever.
If you have questions about the game that you want answered, post in our comments section (@BreachSideChat) and hear Mack give you answers live on Ustream Wednesday, December 12th at 11 a.m. PST! Check it out here: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/through-the-breach
cincydooley wrote: Maybe I'm reading too much into it, and its entirely possible it was unintended, but my first read through of it left with a sour taste; just seems like the first line is a unnecessiarly snarky. I'm probably overly sensitive.
You may be reading too much into it.
The models such as Nightmare Lord Chompy Bits and Miss Terious were supposedly "special edition" miniatures for people buying during GenCon. People raised a bit of a stir when they offered them again (LCB during birthday and Miss Terious for this Kickstarter). Hence they're making it clear that it's 'special' enough to be special, but in no way 'limited edition'.
For those wondering about where the estimates for producing the books came from, or the anticipated thickness of the books, it might be good to look at where Mack came from. As Mack is tagged with the responsibility to drive the RPG development, his history at Fantasy Flight and the books he worked on for Dark Heresy are probably good indicators of where the back-end information comes from.
nix2825 wrote: For those wondering about where the estimates for producing the books came from, or the anticipated thickness of the books, it might be good to look at where Mack came from. As Mack is tagged with the responsibility to drive the RPG development, his history at Fantasy Flight and the books he worked on for Dark Heresy are probably good indicators of where the back-end information comes from.
I don't know how accurate it would be to make that assumption. FFG is printing a very different product with a significantly higher volume. Further, He's a content producer and game designer and therefore probably had very little to do with the actual publication of any of those books. I'd be very surprised if he even had any part in the book layouts, etc.
Idk, I'm sure that he does know some of the back end on book printing. I mean even my mentor teacher during my student teaching ran the yearbook and was a content producer, but even he knew how many books he needed to sell to get it to so many pages at the lowest cost he could. Is he an expert? No, probably not, but I'm sure he brought some contacts in the industry with him to Wyrd.
It's Mack, the RPG Developer for Through The Breach! I'm hijacking todays update to remind you all that tomorrow, at 11 a.m. PST I've got another Breach Side Chat. Come join me and lets get into all the details of the RPG project! Here is a link: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/through-the-breach.
I can't do it without your questions though, so don't forget to post them in the Comments and start your question with @BreachSideChat so that I'm sure to see it!
I'm hard at work getting the game made. Soon, I hope to have a realistic (although early) break down of what the Kickstarter has given us in the game line as a whole. When I do, I'll hijack the update again. <Evil Laugh>. We've still got 29 days to go, so as we proceed even more nitty gritty details will be revealed and discussed. So come join me tomorrow for the Breach Side Chat!
Man this thing is dead. 1 new backer yesterday. I will be SHOCKED if it reaches $250k. Heck, right now I can't see it making $200k based on the past week avg pledges.
Yeah it's stalled pretty badly. A lack of incentives for people to pledge towards or useful stretch goals has really killed off the progression for this.
Thing of it is, I can't really see Wyrd changing their mind on how the KS is run. They've got more cash than they needed to get this off the ground, there is no need to offer any other incentives. And because the incentives that are given are weighted towards those who are already pledged to the kickstarter, there is less likelihood of people joining as this progresses, not to mention even less chance of last minute backers.
To be fair, Kingdom Death only got 16 backers yesterday as compared to the roughly 40 they were averaging since November 30th, I think plenty of people are holding on to their cash in general, preferring to spend it on Christmas gifts for friends and loved ones, but yeah it is a sad sign to see this happen. I'm hoping Mack's Breach Side Chat will do something to help bring new people in, whether through what he says about the game, or what might come of daily updates.
Alfndrate wrote: To be fair, Kingdom Death only got 16 backers yesterday as compared to the roughly 40 they were averaging since November 30th, I think plenty of people are holding on to their cash in general, preferring to spend it on Christmas gifts for friends and loved ones, but yeah it is a sad sign to see this happen. I'm hoping Mack's Breach Side Chat will do something to help bring new people in, whether through what he says about the game, or what might come of daily updates.
Not sure how 1+1 = 2 there!
KD only got 16 new backers, and still managed to add $16K.
This one had one backer and $400.
And has averaged less than $1K for two days in a row now.
They've already met their goal though, so maybe it is 'mission accomplished' in their minds - but this seems like a lot of wasted potential, a real missed opportunity to build excitement and grow the fan base beyond the core and a good example of how not to run a Kickstarter, maybe!
Alfndrate wrote: To be fair, Kingdom Death only got 16 backers yesterday as compared to the roughly 40 they were averaging since November 30th, I think plenty of people are holding on to their cash in general, preferring to spend it on Christmas gifts for friends and loved ones, but yeah it is a sad sign to see this happen. I'm hoping Mack's Breach Side Chat will do something to help bring new people in, whether through what he says about the game, or what might come of daily updates.
Not sure how 1+1 = 2 there!
KD only got 16 new backers, and still managed to add $16K.
This one had one backer and $400.
And has averaged less than $1K for two days in a row now.
They've already met their goal though, so maybe it is 'mission accomplished' in their minds - but this seems like a lot of wasted potential, a real missed opportunity to build excitement and grow the fan base beyond the core and a good example of how not to run a Kickstarter, maybe!
Actually both you and I need to go back to 6th grade math class and learn how to read graphs. They added 16,000 dollars yesterday, but it was with 31 backers. They're up to 17 on today with only 5.7k raised. My point was (before I re-read the graph because 16 people donating 1,000 dollars each seems kind of steep for my blood) you had a drop off in pledges going from 31 to 16 in KD, and Through the Breach had 6 drop to 1. I wasn't comparing cash flow to cash flow, someone commented on the number of backers for TTB and I offered an explanation. So 1+1 does equal 2
BrookM wrote:I was one of those 16 and I only checked it out yesterday, I'm now officially more excited about KD than this project.
And that's fine, I have no interest in KD and don't fault those that do, I hope it's a good game, and they should give all backers a free Wet Nurse model...
I think the bigger issue is that, as compared to KD, Wyrd just doesn't have anything to drive up more volume. I'm having trouble finding the value right now, and as such am keeping my pledge at $1 so I can still read all the backer-only stuff.
Wyrd could do a few things to entice me:
1. Show some mock ups of the either of the books.
2. Show a mock up of Hannah
3. Provide a teaser for Hannah's rules.
4. Provide a KS ONLY miniature (I don't know why they wouldn't do this; they love doing LEs)
If they don't do any of that, I'm going to continue to struggle to find the value here, especially now that I know I'll be able to get Hannah in other places. It's pretty clear that the KS isn't going to get to the free Hanging Tree level, which would have certainly added value to it.
Like I said earlier, maybe they're at the "Job's done!" stage - and they only needed $(X) to get where they needed to go, and they just miscalculated how long it would take to get there?
Still seems like a strange way to run a KS though - from the outside looking in, from someone not all that interested in the product they're offering.
Coming from that segment of the market, I can say that nothing here has me too interested in jumping in either.
An option for a PDF only at a lot less than $60 would help drive these types of pledges, maybe.
Like I said earlier, maybe they're at the "Job's done!" stage - and they only needed $(X) to get where they needed to go, and they just miscalculated how long it would take to get there?
Problem with that strategy is that a lot of people just jumped in because they loved malifaux, pledged earlier to get Miss Terious and keep a wait and see approach. If it is worth it at the deadline keep the pledge. Otherwise drop it. Which means they might actually have people dropping out in masses if they don't do anything else.
We'lls ee how that works, I know that I'm one of those, I'm in for now just so I won't lose any early pledge rewards, but if it doesn't actually become an interesting Kickstarter at some point I'll back out of it. There is no incentive for me to shell out the money 3/4th of a year in advance as it stands now. I might buy it retail then if it is interesting enough (as there is still the risk that the product will not be up to their usual standards, as well, we don't know anything since we can't see what we're spending money on, another part one has to realize with kickstarters for these things).
Problem with that strategy is that a lot of people just jumped in because they loved malifaux, pledged earlier to get Miss Terious and keep a wait and see approach. If it is worth it at the deadline keep the pledge. Otherwise drop it. Which means they might actually have people dropping out in masses if they don't do anything else.
I doubt that this will happen on any noticeable scale.
For most people, money pledged is - psychologically - money already spend.
It is the same reason why adding little add ons, etc. works well for "normal" Kickstarters. Most see what they pledged already as "sunk costs" and getting "something more for a little bit more" as a good deal, even if they wouldn't have plunged for the deep end straight away.
And a lot of people simply want that game. Period.
Wyrd's lack of "promotion/stretch goals" is puzzling because they are wasting a great opportunity to "suck in" more people, not only into the RPG, but possibly into all their products. But there is little doubt that the existing Wyrd fans will get this and .. almost certainly .. enjoy it.
I don't think there are doubts that the product will be a fine one, even if the Kickstarter campaign is a strange one.
Actually, the situation may be more distressing then is even being credited. Consider the per day graphs;
What this doesn't show is that for most of yesterday, the numbers were actually negative. I've been watching the stats fairly carefully, and what is happening is that people are starting to churn: that is, people are leaving completely, causing the number to drop, so that even when new backers enter they are only filling the existing holes.
This morning, for example, it was at about -$150 or so at 1:30AM. It's going to spend most of the morning climbing out of that hole, so new backers will simply be absorbed until they have made up the losses.
This is exacerbated by the fact that this campaign has no meaningful way for people to increase their pledge amounts. KD has constantly added options as they have opened up: their average pledge has increased over the course of the campaign from (if I recall correctly) around $150 or so, to now it stands at $246 per backer. It will likely keep increasing over the course of the campaign as the Herald of Death becomes a better and better "sweet spot" (unless you are really looking to economize, it's probably already the best choice for a foreign backer). So when you look at yesterday and see 31 new backers and $16,000 added, what you're seeing is a lot of people increasing their pledges by small amounts as well as 16 new people adding $100, 200, 300, etc.
Wyrd, by contrast, stubbornly remains in the $150 zone, because there is noting that can be added. When pledges slump, they need more backers. If you watch it during the day you can see the movement in clear quanta of $60, $125 and so on.
It is very strange, but one can't help but think that there is something to the argument that "they have done enough" and don't feel that they need to do more.
The contrast in attitude, not among the backers, but from Wyrd, is striking: they really do seem almost as if they feel ashamed to be using kickstarter. Just look at their comments page (for Wyrd, not the campaign); they haven't responded to anyone since December 7th, 5 days ago. Adam Poots has more comment responses in the last 24-48 hours then Wyrd does on their entire campaign (slight hyperbole!).
At first I thought it was a characteristic of small companies like KD or JunkRobot, but more and more I think it's a reflection of how much they think the campaign will actually impact their business. JunkRobot, for example, babysat their campaign like... well, like it was their baby. It was a huge deal for their company. Same for KD.
Looking at what Wyrd is doing, one simply doesn't get the feeling that they consider this campaign essential to their product. No responses to comments, one (1) update per day? People have mentioned the weekly chats... but that only highlights that other campaigns haven't needed weekly chats... because the people running the campaign have popped into the comments 4-6 times per day to answer questions. I can't remember the last time I even saw someone official reply on their own forums... I'm not saying they have to take the pledge JunkRobot did to reply to every email within 24 hours, but they could have someone babysitting the campaign.
Forgive me for going BIble, but Wyrd's attitude, and thus a lot of the criticism can be summed up by Colissians 3:23 and as paraphrased in 'plain english' by Martin Luther King Jr:
Whatever your life's work is, do it well. A man should do his job so well that the living, the dead, and the unborn could do it no better.
Basically, if you're going to do it, do a good job. It feels like Wyrd has effectively thrown in the towel with 29 days left. When other Kickstarters and their creators stay actively engaged for the length of the project, it makes it appear that Wyrd just doesn't care enough about the KS or their backers to be more involved.
Alfndrate wrote: The other thing you have to do is compare it to other released RPG books.
Wizards of The Coast Player's Guide and Dungeon Master's Guide: 544 pages for both (320 for PHB and 224 for DMG), full-color, hardcover: 34.95 each = 69.90 USD
Paizo's Pathfinder Core Rules: 576 pages, full-color, hardcover, all information contained for Players and GMs = 49.99 USD
Privateer Press's Iron Kingdoms Full Metal Fantasy RPG: 359 pages, full-color, hardcover, all information contained for Players and GMs = 60.00 USD
White Wolf's New World of Darkness: 224 pages, greyscale, hardcover all information contained for players and GMs = 24.99 USD (add 34.99 for any of the major specifics like Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, etc...)
So Wyrd is giving you 2 full color rulebooks of at least 150 full color pages (if the Malifaux rulebooks are any indication to go by) for 60 dollars. Comparing that to ANY other role playing game system and you're finding yourself very much in the middle of pricing. Release prices of these books are probably going to be comparable to their Malifaux books and WoTC's PHB and DMG (35 bucks).
So Wyrd gives the option to pay full retail a year in advance for 2 crappy bound softcovers that will fall apart if you look at them sideways. Gee, how nice of them.
I'll take my double page count hardcover off amazon for cheaper, thanks.
Polonius wrote: Let's not forget that Kickstarter is a means to an end, not the end itself. The goal of KS is to fund a project, not have a great KS.
Kind of the success of the kickstarter also means a successfully project. The more success the project gets the better it becomes and the larger the player community will be which leads to more interest from the rest of community and more attention to the company. So really they are about the same.
Polonius wrote: Let's not forget that Kickstarter is a means to an end, not the end itself. The goal of KS is to fund a project, not have a great KS.
Perhaps.
But the question of how a company communicates with fans/backers/customers/etc.. is in itself a subject of importance and interest.
Games Workshop gets a lot of flak on Dakka for the way it approaches marketing and communications, product releases and product pricing (vis-a-vis the "value" you get for it).
Why should these subjects be off-topic for Wyrd-Games?
Bossk, do you own any Malifaux books? Not to detract from your point, but both Cincydooley and I have said that the rulebooks are extremely well made and cincy can comment on his books, but mine are used multiple times a week and they're still in great condition.
And while it isn't reflected in my quote I did speculate that it would be at least 150 pages but probably closer to 200 per book
Polonius wrote: Let's not forget that Kickstarter is a means to an end, not the end itself. The goal of KS is to fund a project, not have a great KS.
Perhaps.
But the question of how a company communicates with fans/backers/customers/etc.. is in itself a subject of importance and interest.
Games Workshop gets a lot of flak on Dakka for the way it approaches marketing and communications, product releases and product pricing (vis-a-vis the "value" you get for it).
Why should these subjects be off-topic for Wyrd-Games?
they aren't. I've posted multiple times in this thread criticizing Wyrd's approach in this KS.
It doesn't change the fact that if they started the campaign to fund the RPG books, with no other goals, they've met and exceeded the goal. I think the fact that they were fully funded based on virtually no info shows that they have plenty of goodwill. And they might look at stretch goals and the like and decide that there is no reason to sweeten the pot, or spread their creative efforts thinner. Of course, that supports the idea that the RPG was going to happen, and the KS is meant more to to infuse some general capital.
My point is that you can argue that Wyrd is being oddly arrogant, you can argue that they aren't doing much to bring in more fans, and you can argue that they simply don't appeal to you. What you can't do is call the campaign any less than a sucess. As for wasted opportunity, they might have reasons not to persue more growth.
Alfndrate wrote: Bossk, do you own any Malifaux books? Not to detract from your point, but both Cincydooley and I have said that the rulebooks are extremely well made and cincy can comment on his books, but mine are used multiple times a week and they're still in great condition.
I can back that up, all of mine are still in good nick after years of use.
My point is that you can argue that Wyrd is being oddly arrogant, you can argue that they aren't doing much to bring in more fans, and you can argue that they simply don't appeal to you. What you can't do is call the campaign any less than a sucess. As for wasted opportunity, they might have reasons not to persue more growth.
I think this really hits it on the head.
It also makes me wonder why they put such a long campaign timeline on there....
My Malifaux books are in really good shape. I've never questioned that the publishing would be quality when it came to the paperbacks. Just the quanity of pages, etc. I would also love to see/know more about the hardcover because they've never done one.
What you can't do is call the campaign any less than a success.
I am not.
But I can be puzzled by its success. Not all that dissimilar to GW's marketing/product release strategy, the secrets of success seem to be markedly different to what "the fans", "Dakka" or many other part-time-internet-miniature-business-analyst seems to think they are.
As for wasted opportunity, they might have reasons not to persue more growth.
Just like Games Workshop - in many a person's opinion on this board - is allegedly wasting massive business opportunities by handling things (prizes, secrecy, neglect of "old customers", neglect of the tourney scene, etc..) the way they do.
Things that "baffle" the consumer will forever be a hot topic on internet forums.
I don't think they might have reasons for doing things the way they do. I think - just like GW - they must have reasons for doing things the way they do it.
I simply cannot, for the live of me, think of what these reasons might be (which is where it is different from GW, where I have the shareholder reports outlining their reasons for doing it how they do it).
ACtually, one possibly reason to not encourage further growth in the KS is to avoid the curse of success. I don't know how big Wyrd is, but I'm guessing not huge. There is a limit to how fast a company can grow, even given ample capital, and still retain the same culture.
I've seen reprots that other companies that have had runaway success with Kickstarter find themselves having more money than labor or time. And the cost of stretch goals and bonuses add up. Kickstarter is not meant or intended for any one type of project, but I think the projects that benefit the most are the ones that have little to no ability to secure financing any other way. The use here is a bit puzzling. If they really only needed $30k to publisht the game, it's worrying if they couldn't scrape that together over the next 12 months. And if they needed more, why not ask for more?
There are many possiblities, ranging from liquidity issues (they need $30k now, and are still going to make the RPG, but cash now would help) to simple half assedness. I'm more willing, barring any real evidence of problems, to assume they' just saw a chance to bring in some cash to help with a project, and didn't work very hard at it because it's simply not a priorty.
RiTides wrote: Yeah- that's not going to work out in the end, imo. Talk about intentionally gimping your last minute push...
Yes, it is gimping their final push, because many people usually wait till the last minute and say, "Oh well NOW I can get this, that, and another thing, whereas 2 weeks ago I couldn't." They're making this about the project, not what the final push backers can line their pockets with, which is what kickstarter is about.
More money could give them design jump starts on future books/expansions. Its foolish to turn it down, particularly when that's the entire point of getting money beyond your initial funding goal.
Assume they need 30 grand for 2 books and 2 multi-pose minis They're currently sitting at a point where they could almost fun the printings of 10 more books and 10 more minis. Eventually they're going to get diminishing returns on extra content, their RPG team can only develop so much at a time before they start stretching themselves thin, not to mention that they probably have to wait for the tabletop game to advance, since what happens in the TT game affects the RPG...
cincydooley wrote: People are SO ready to jump down the throat of GW for ANYTHING perceived as a miscue, but when a smaller company does it, people simply fall in line like lemmings. Then, those of us that present valid criticisms and real concerns are ostracized for it. Blows my mind.
Wyrd fans are pretty hardcore defensive, mind. As much as I love the game of Malifaux, their forum is somewhere I massively avoid 'cos of this.
This. I actually like a bunch of their metal models, but their recent plastics and 3d designed models are a significant step down. Thin spindly limbs with proportions that aren't in scale with the rest of their line, soft detail obscured by anything other than an airbrush, and tiny pieces prone to snapping at any moment because the sculptor was looking at something blown up to 300x resolution rather than working with a tactile medium where he had to take into account physics and how it would look at the final small scale. But good luck getting any kind of discussion over new releases other than how many buckets you need to collect your drool. Any criticism, constructive or otherwise is pretty much shouted down instantly.
Not to sound like I'm shouting down your criticism, but their plastics are in scale with the rest of the stuff. SOME of the stuff is spindlier, but it's not bad. Don't forget that some of their metal models are also out of scale because the model is large (Joss comes to mind)... Just using these two pics:
They're pretty much in scale with metal models, I will give them that there are less places to glue them to the base. My standing beckoner had to be reglued because she's practically standing on toe, and you have a very small surface to glue her to a base...
Edit: It should also be pointed out that discussion of the models should take place here Since that actually pertains to the models, as this thread is dedicated to the kickstarter, and nothing else.
Alfndrate wrote: Bossk, do you own any Malifaux books? Not to detract from your point, but both Cincydooley and I have said that the rulebooks are extremely well made and cincy can comment on his books, but mine are used multiple times a week and they're still in great condition.
And while it isn't reflected in my quote I did speculate that it would be at least 150 pages but probably closer to 200 per book
Yes, the main Malifaux book. Like all softback's the glue's weak and it doesnt hold up well. My cover's scuffed, the edges are split, etc. IMO soft backs are disposable, and poor choices for reference manuals. Also, at the speculated 200 pages per book, they're still more expensive than comparable hardbacks with bigger page counts. Again, Wyrd's asking people to pre-order at retail prices and then having the attitude like they need to hold their nose to take our money. I'm in currently to follow it, but unless they offer hardcovers at less than the 125 range, I'm out. I know I'm not alone in wanting that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alfndrate wrote: Not to sound like I'm shouting down your criticism, but their plastics are in scale with the rest of the stuff. SOME of the stuff is spindlier, but it's not bad. Don't forget that some of their metal models are also out of scale because the model is large (Joss comes to mind)... Just using these two pics:
They're pretty much in scale with metal models, I will give them that there are less places to glue them to the base. My standing beckoner had to be reglued because she's practically standing on toe, and you have a very small surface to glue her to a base...
Edit: It should also be pointed out that discussion of the models should take place here Since that actually pertains to the models, as this thread is dedicated to the kickstarter, and nothing else.
The dark debts box is the only one I've seen worth a damn, but even then Lynch's head is about 2/3 the mass of others. The beckoner's limbs are thin and flat compared to other arms. Just because they're the same height doesnt mean they're the same scale.
And the I understant you dont own a hanging tree, but the corpse figures are also too small, and the ropes break pretty much instantly. Plus the bark/roots is just copy pasted texture which doesnt look very organic or realistic in comparison. Compare the computer modeled plastics to something like bad juju... were it done today he would just have a bunch of rounded blobs on him rather than all the intricate little odds and ends sticking out of his muck that add character to the figure.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: This. I actually like a bunch of their metal models, but their recent plastics and 3d designed models are a significant step down. Thin spindly limbs with proportions that aren't in scale with the rest of their line, soft detail obscured by anything other than an airbrush, and tiny pieces prone to snapping at any moment because the sculptor was looking at something blown up to 300x resolution rather than working with a tactile medium where he had to take into account physics and how it would look at the final small scale. But good luck getting any kind of discussion over new releases other than how many buckets you need to collect your drool. Any criticism, constructive or otherwise is pretty much shouted down instantly.
You are very much in the minority here. I think the figures are amazing and a significant step up from the metals. Having put some of these figures together, I would like to know what you are doing to them to have them break so readily. Then again, I see kids with broken smartphone screens all the time. Dunno.
Edit: Stupid smartphone. Android's autocorrect is nearly as bad as Apple's. :/
Polonius wrote: There are many possiblities, ranging from liquidity issues (they need $30k now, and are still going to make the RPG, but cash now would help) to simple half assedness. I'm more willing, barring any real evidence of problems, to assume they' just saw a chance to bring in some cash to help with a project, and didn't work very hard at it because it's simply not a priorty.
This ties into something that I began to consider when you mentioned considering the campaign a "success", if only in the narrowest commercial sense. That is, the attitude you note above is being broadcast to a very large audience, an audience that probably didn't have much in the way of feeling one way or the other towards Wyrd prior to now.
Speaking only for myself now, I have been looking forward for some time to picking up a few of the miniatures from the upcoming Ten Thunders faction, and was genuinely looking forward to what would be offered in this campaign. My initial enthusiasm has turned first into confusion, and then to complete bafflement as to what they are trying to do here. Its difficult to come away from the campaign without he feeling that Wyrd is either engaging in (to be generous) treating their customers with benign neglect, or (to be less generous) contempt.
A lot of people like me that held generally positive views of Wyrd are likely wondering how accurate their previous impressions were. Of course that's all conjecture, and only time will tell.
What isn't so conjectural is the muddled nature of the campaign: thre seems to be a strong feeling going around along the lines of "they've made enough cash, they're fine", but this clashes with the fact that they did, after all, release stretch goals. Wildly desultory and disappointing, but stretch goals nevertheless.
Let's remember what I mentioned earlier in the thread: you never need to have stretch goals. In fact, for a project like a book, that is self-contained and not amenable to expansion, it's probably a good idea not to have them. I noted that the Art of Brom had some minimal stretch goals related to the binding of the book, and when they reached them... that was it.
Wyrd hasn't done that. Instead of saying "awesome, this is going to be a great product, tell your friends to get in on a great deal", they announced stretch goals, said "There are more Stretch Goals waiting to be reached, so read on to see what Fate may have in store!" Why? They've ended up sorta stringing people along, with a structure designed to hold onto people that may not have considered the deal worthwhile, for fear of losing the only really good addition thus far, the special edition Miss T.
I could see that this KS could produce more funds that their RPG division could use so stretches could be tricky
but they could always treat them as a long term loan,
Make the stretches PDF adventures, to be delivered over the next few years,
every 3 or 6 months a new product could be available to download meaning everybody would KNOW the RPG was here to stay, meaning it would be a far less risky thing to get into (and then sold as a paper product to the general public)
(there are so many RPGs that effectivy die after the system and only a couple of adventures...knowing it's got support for a couple of years in the future would mean it would be an easier sell to gamers)
It would also mean they'd be able to keep a (small) dedicated team employed to enlarge and deepen the world background etc
(there are so many RPGs that effectivy die after the system and only a couple of adventures...knowing it's got support for a couple of years in the future would mean it would be an easier sell to gamers)
Yes. But that is the reason so many these days do it on Kickstarter.
Pre-Kickstarter, the "profitable" part of RPGs was usually the "main books". Adventures and obscure supplements for corner X of the setting rarely were profitable. That's why the large companies like WoTC and Steve Jackson "rebooted" their line every so often. That is why WoTC tried to outsource the "not-so-profitable" adventures, etc.. through their Open Gaming License (which didn't work out as they thought it would, as most ambitious 3rd parties out there also started profitable "core games" of their own, rather than plot along doing adventures).
But with RPG's on Kickstarter - such as the niche-record Numenera - they front-load as many adventures (pdf ideally) as is humanly possible into the Kickstarter.
That is the time when people buy them - as a part of stretches, add-ons and Kickstarter bonuses. Not a fraction of them will ever buy the adventure when it is published, Kickstarter-independent, months or even years later.
Nobody will back a "follow-up" Kickstarter for adventures without core-game either (which is easier with miniatures I s'pose).
If Wyrd isn't using this Kickstarter to get as many adventure "pre-orders" in as possible, that only makes the long-term support for this RPGmore questionable IMO, not less so.
When the core game is out and the Kickstarter funds used up, publishing adventures and obscure supplements will not support a decent-sized RPG department, much less one led by a no doubt not-quite-cheap half-celebrity designer like Mack Martin.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: This. I actually like a bunch of their metal models, but their recent plastics and 3d designed models are a significant step down. Thin spindly limbs with proportions that aren't in scale with the rest of their line, soft detail obscured by anything other than an airbrush, and tiny pieces prone to snapping at any moment because the sculptor was looking at something blown up to 300x resolution rather than working with a tactile medium where he had to take into account physics and how it would look at the final small scale. But good luck getting any kind of discussion over new releases other than how many buckets you need to collect your drool. Any criticism, constructive or otherwise is pretty much shouted down instantly.
You are very much in the minority here. I think the figures are amazing and a significant step up from the metals. Having put some of these figures together, I would like to know what you are doing to them to have them break so readily. Then again, I see kids with broken smartphone screens all the time. Dunno.
Edit: Stupid smartphone. Android's autocorrect is nearly as bad as Apple's. :/
I had the gall to take them off the sprue. Actually one of the god awful trees came with a broken rope in the box, one broke while snipping it off, and a third broke while applying a base coat. So of the 4 corpses, one managed to make it through the base coat/wash stage, but its only a matter of time before some mean nasty foam hurts the delicate little snowflake. Those chains on the 10 thunder models? As good as trashed. If the 3D artist had worked with real materials, they would have realized quickly how impractical they were.
Like I said, please take the model discussion talk to the thread that discusses the models. But we have a good update today!
December 12th - over 581% of funding goal
Hi everyone!
Day Fifteen is coming to a close, so it’s time for the Daily Update!
I should say it’s time for another Hijacked Update! Yes indeed, Mack hinted yesterday that we’d soon have a realistic (although early) break down of how the Kickstarter funds translate into improvements and expansions for Through the Breach. We’ve prepared the breakdown, and Mack is serving it to you on a silver platter! Check out the graphic below!
Also, Mack hosted Breach Side Chat #2 this morning, and we’ve got that up on YouTube now for you – thanks everybody who was able to chime in today!
Until Monday!
Jacqulyn
Automatically Appended Next Post: So if we take a look at some of the questions people have been asking on the KS and Wyrd forums about character creation, the various other "books" seem to be covered up by the jokers, etc... so we'll most likely see those as the Kickstarter goes on.
We currently have 2 books for release after the KS Into the Bayou - More expanded lore and fluff of the Bayou, and you can create a gremlin
From Nightmares - Get to play as Neverborn and learn more about the natives to Malifaux.
I had the gall to take them off the sprue. Actually one of the god awful trees came with a broken rope in the box, one broke while snipping it off, and a third broke while applying a base coat. So of the 4 corpses, one managed to make it through the base coat/wash stage, but its only a matter of time before some mean nasty foam hurts the delicate little snowflake. Those chains on the 10 thunder models? As good as trashed. If the 3D artist had worked with real materials, they would have realized quickly how impractical they were.
Feel free to look at my gallery, I included a number of pictures in there of the new models including the Hanging trees. While I am/was very unhappy with how the tree fit together overall, I have not had the snapping issues you indicate. Further, the plastics seem to be well in scale with the metal models (there is a mix throughout the crews) and I have played with all of them a fair amount (well over 10 games each) without any of the bits snapping.
It seems you had a bad experience, but it seems that your experience is also in the minority.
Although Huggy (Hungering Darkness) is possibly the worst model Wyrd has ever produced (in my opinion).
I'm not disagreeing with you, in fact I clearly stated, if it was out, even up to the 200,000 level, it probably would have drawn people in, look you even quoted it
Alfndrate wrote: I'm not disagreeing with you, in fact I clearly stated, if it was out, even up to the 200,000 level, it probably would have drawn people in, look you even quoted it
Spot on. That's just makes it more frustrating. I hope they reevaluate some of the "early backer" bs now, because this is the kind of set up they should have had from the beginning. I personally don't care because I already have a Miss T, but the fact that the early folks get more now is still going to rub some the wrong way.
Alfndrate wrote: I'm not disagreeing with you, in fact I clearly stated, if it was out, even up to the 200,000 level, it probably would have drawn people in, look you even quoted it
Spot on. That's just makes it more frustrating. I hope they reevaluate some of the "early backer" bs now, because this is the kind of set up they should have had from the beginning. I personally don't care because I already have a Miss T, but the fact that the early folks get more now is still going to rub some the wrong way.
Yeah, I'm glad that they put out the expansion/book track, but really wish that that had been part of their original announcement. There's still plenty of time to get some momentum going again, though, if Wyrd continues to make more moves like this.
Alfndrate wrote: I'm not disagreeing with you, in fact I clearly stated, if it was out, even up to the 200,000 level, it probably would have drawn people in, look you even quoted it
Spot on. That's just makes it more frustrating. I hope they reevaluate some of the "early backer" bs now, because this is the kind of set up they should have had from the beginning. I personally don't care because I already have a Miss T, but the fact that the early folks get more now is still going to rub some the wrong way.
Yeah, I'm glad that they put out the expansion/book track, but really wish that that had been part of their original announcement. There's still plenty of time to get some momentum going again, though, if Wyrd continues to make more moves like this.
Time will tell. Hopefully that page count is per book and not total. If we're looking at 230ish pages combined, I think a lot of people are going to not see the value there. I posed that question in thKS, so hopefully we get an answer.
I'm also not convinced that they have enough in this KS to drive it up another 100k. But we'll see.
Alfndrate wrote: I'm not disagreeing with you, in fact I clearly stated, if it was out, even up to the 200,000 level, it probably would have drawn people in, look you even quoted it
I kind of wonder if the "Mack takeing over the kickstarter update sometimes" isn't just a joke trying to be funny, but instead is him actually trying to counter some of the bad press this project has been getting.
It's going to be interesting to see what kind of an effect that chart has on the project, from what kicktraq is showing yesterday was a better day then the two before it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone had a chance to watch the second Breach Side Chat?
I'm going to watch it here in a second, I'll probably post up some bits
Does the Campaign have a Level Cap? - Yes, sorta... Once all of your characters reach the 5th step in their fate, then the campaign basically ends. You've wrapped up storylines, defeated baddies (or goodies), etc... There might be a few game sessions after this, but logical conclusion of a campaign is after everyone in the party has finished their fates.
How does Advancement work? - Lots of skills (20 some pages atm, growing every day), but every game session, you pick 3 of the massive list of skills that you feel your character "learned the most from". So if my Arcanist, Gunfighter, Wastrel type character says, "hey I missed a lot of shots, so I learned from that, but I also did some studying of the arcane, and I bluffed my way into a secret society." They present that to the Fatemaster, who says, "I think you learned x the most, and that's the skill that gets the point boost. There are other ways to raise skills, the FM can opt to say, well you can have 2, because your character did really well this session. THIS MIGHT CHANGE DURING PLAYTESTING
How difficult will it be to add players to a group? - Easy to tell how powerful current characters are, and should be able to fit in a new player without very much issue. Also, because of how fluid everything else is, you should be able to have party level disparity without any issue.
How will community feedback work once the forums go up? - Mack spends on planning an hour a day or so responding to feedback, answer questions, take community created content (mechanics, stories, etc...). This might be while he's in the office, who knows what he plans on doing once he's home. If an idea get's used, you probably won't get paid for it, but you will get credit for it, and Mack might be looking to hiring down the road.
Would you want to see "homebrew" rules that were created before the KS went live? - Not really, but what we can take out of this is that Mack said core rules are pretty set in stone, and it's why I included it lol
Will we see tournament rules and WYSIWYG with the plastic minis and will we be able be like Kirai and let our inner spirit wreck havoc? - The RPG rules will have no bearing on the skirmish game, it's not intended to throw the skirmish game out of balance. And there are a lot of things left to be revealed, but your fatemaster could do something like the Kirai.
What effect will the Black Joker (worst card in the game) have on character creation? - Flipping the Jokers will have a similar effect. Flipping the Black Joker means you'll be much more focused. So you might get a +2, +2, but a -3. The Red Joker will be 0s across the board, but have a +1 in something, far more general. The Black Joker is not as bad during character creation. Though it is bad during the "Omens" part of the game, hints at that BOTH jokers are "bad"-ish on the omens front.
Can you gain access to totems, will we be able to create our own/get "stock" totems? - Not at this moment, Mack wants this to be a dynamic rule to make it into the RPG game.
With the focus on characters being the "most important" part of the world at that time period, it seems like it's designed for shorter games, is there something for longer games? - Like with the level cap, it's designed to have a story, and end when that story ends, though there seem to be ways for the FateMaster to lengthen the game, similar to XP tracks like in Pathfinder.
Will player characters have powers that reflect their themes, like Colette being a showwoman and Zoraida being a manipulator? - Yes, magic is everywhere. There are ways for magic and supernatural things to "flow" through the characters, and combine talents, etc...
How gear dependent will Fated be in Through the Breach? - There are powerful weapons/magic items/etc... Characters won't be looking to upgrade themselves by getting a "better" sword. Not being a level based system, you don't have challenge ratings, etc... like in DnD or Pathfinder. Think of it more as a White Wolf or Shadowrun game (I've never played Shadowrun, but I have played Mage: The Awakening, so this idea makes sense... somewhat)
Is it possible for players to play as non-Fated? It seems weird that every character in every game I run would know their own fate. - Yes, it is designed for the players to be Fated, and know their fate, but you can literally skip a single step in character creation to avoid the "fated" step. You should be able to change the game without re-writing the core mechanicsAlf's thoughts: I think the FM might be able to pick a fate for the character, and slowly it gets revealed through play
What made you choose asymmetrical randomness (by having only the players flip), instead of symmetrical flipping (both FM and players flipping)? - Communal storytelling, it's not supposed to be antagonistic between the FM and the players (like some people play DnD where it's them vs the DM). The key difference between Malifaux and Through the Breach is that Malifaux is clearly 2 players against each other, and TTB is not. Though the Disposition system can help you out in that regards, allowing you to take your RPG game to the tabletop.
I missed the question, but he has clearly stated that the project is NOT near completion and ready to print, so the forums will be used to test rules, etc...
What is the primary way that characters can be made unique during character creation? What are the "choice" options? - There are like 11 steps to character creation, and there is one that doesn't require a decision and that is reading your fate (I need to relisten to this part).
Is there a system or mechanic for a fated party? Like dedicating the crew to a certain faction, say Ressers. - There isn't anything like this atm, and it's a great idea for the beta forums where the community can flesh this out as a larger group. Tossed out ideas like requirements for the party, or more fluid so it could be changed, but no, there isn't anything currently in the game.
Will there be maps and monsters for those that want to use minis? - Plugged Terraclips of course, and then plugged Malifaux minis lol But the answer is that there will not be a dedicated line of Through the Breach minis (besides the multi-pose models), though if a monster or something is really cool in the RPG, they MAY take it into the skirmish game (also Mack needs a new computer fan, I can hear it in the background).
Can we get more information on the different types of Soulstones? - It's in the book, so what's the nature of the soulstone, what are its abilities, what they look like, how to refuel, corrupt, purify, etc.. They are a story mechanic to help you cheat fate, but they're more like adventure objectives. Gives out the idea of a soulstone that has been charging in an Asylum for years. How does such a thing like that affect the nature of the soulstone? It is currently being written atm.
Average Group Size? - Few as 2, all the way up to 6 or 7 (with average size being 3 to 4) without it breaking.
Are there any plans for character apps for electronic devices? - None at the moment, but they're a small office, so it's being talked about but nothing concrete.
Are there plans to integrated online things like Obsidian Portal, Rolld20, etc...? - No plans to announce, yet... Not against it, just nothing official. Anything said atm would just be wishful thinking on the part of Mack and Wyrd.
Will there be flaws and traits? - Not currently in the system, could be implemented. Doesn't know if it's necessary, because there are ways in Through the Breach to fill roles beyond just class, so it's easy to differentiate based on skills chosen, etc... (Seems almost built in...)
Is there an overlap between novice pursuits, and how does one change pursuits? - Hopes that you keep the same pursuit during the game session. If you are the rare gunfighter/fruit stand owner (overseer), and you're currently working at your fruit stand, you might be caught off guard because you're not expecting a fight. (Also someone at Wyrd RPG might have killed someone as Police sirens played in the background). There is overlap, like a Gunfighter and a Merc might have similar skills, but when they get the bonuses are different times
Advanced Pursuits? - Yes, there going to be things like death marshals.
What kind of items are you thinking about? Like light, medium, heavy guns, or much more defined? - Much more defined, currently gives the idea of a Neumatic Claymore (assuming big ass sword, not directional explosive), and the Gatling Derringer (Mack's current favorite weapons). Multiple sizes of guns, so like 5 or 6 light pistols, and explains all the info, like who makes it. Wishes to make it look like a full store catalog. Like, "buy the Gatling Derringer, for when you just have to kill everything... again..."
When can you get more advanced pursuits? - Storyline, the fatemaster will let you know when you qualify for an advanced pursuit. Once unlocked, you can switch easily through them, much like the novice pursuits.
How prevelant will crafting items be? - Not locked down yet, to do crafting properly, you need to learn how the game works... Might be considered an 'extended' challenge, or if in a rush. He believes characters should be able to just craft stuff... Gives example of a blacksmith trying to shoe a horse while being shot at lol
Abilities and Pursuits? - Pursuits have 10 steps. Each step gives you a new ability. So you might get Quickdraw that lets you draw your gun if you get a trigger during the Initiative flip (he says roll lol). Every "Gunfighter" has the same abilities. If you leave that pursuit and come back, you pick up where you left off. There might be decisions, but the decision points are not the pursuit abilities, but the pursuits themselves. If you're a Dabbler: Dabbler ability - While a Dabbler, whenever you get a specific suit, or you get a trigger on a skill that uses intellect, you draw a card. If you stop being a dabbler, you lose that talent/ability. But if you were to move from the dabbler to the elementalist, you might have a similar ability that is more powerful, like you might be able to discard 1 card, and draw 2.
Can you change pursuits mid-session? - That is up to the fatemaster, currently it's not designed to do that, so players can't game the system, like "We're starting a fight?! I'm going to switch to gunfighter!"
How will Triggers Work? - If he succeeds, he gets to choose triggers, if he fails, the fatemaster can choose triggers from a pool of triggers (might be per monster, rather than a generic pool. It might suck if everything you fought had Squeel and was pushed away whenever hit). The Fatemaster uses the suits of the flip, but does not use any suits added in by the player's stat. So if I have a trigger that uses a Mask and a Rams, and my monster has a Rams in his stat, and the player flips a Crow, and adds a Mask from his stats, but fails to hit or succeed, I can't use my trigger since a Mask wasn't flipped.
How does the FateMaster modify the fate deck? - He doesn't really modify it, but he does choose when to re-shuffle it. It's a story tool. He picks it up, shuffles it, and by the process of touching it, the players get to draw a control card.
How granular do you expect the skills to be? - Extremely granular... Lots of skills. Homesteading will be everything for building and maintaining a house, possibly farming, cattle care, combat will be broke down into pistols, longarms, etc.. There are already 5 or 6 different magic skills.
Alfndrate wrote: I'm not disagreeing with you, in fact I clearly stated, if it was out, even up to the 200,000 level, it probably would have drawn people in, look you even quoted it
I kind of wonder if the "Mack takeing over the kickstarter update sometimes" isn't just a joke trying to be funny, but instead is him actually trying to counter some of the bad press this project has been getting.
It's going to be interesting to see what kind of an effect that chart has on the project, from what kicktraq is showing yesterday was a better day then the two before it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone had a chance to watch the second Breach Side Chat?
Tried to watch BSC last night; had trouble loading it.
Now that you mention it, I think you could be right about Mack trying to 'right the ship' as it were.
I still find it funny how some of the folks on the KS forum are utterly convinced now that this will push them past 300K (I still think thats a LOOOONG Shot) but I'm more optomistic now. Again, I'm a bit concerned over the page count and hope they specify. If it's only 250 pages total for $60 bucks, there is very little value there, IMO. If each book is that, I may be playing ball.
Still not enamored by the running of this KS, but at the very least I'm encouraged.
But I won't lie. It's becoming tiresome getting called a 'whiner' on that KS forum when it's pretty clear all the criticisms I've brought forward are seemingly being addressed by updates like the most recent.
I've updated my last post with a "transcript" of the Breach Side Chat...
Lots of nuggets, and lots of vague answers. It does show, at least to me, that Mack is excited, and wants us to be excited. It's got some cool things to it too.
I've updated my last post with a "transcript" of the Breach Side Chat...
Lots of nuggets, and lots of vague answers. It does show, at least to me, that Mack is excited, and wants us to be excited. It's got some cool things to it too.
Awsome, if I get some downtime today at work I hope to listen to it myself. If not I'll listen to it tonight. Thanks for the write up Alf, it was very informative.
I think Mack is haveing a much more positive effect on this campaign they whoever else they have running it.
I've updated my last post with a "transcript" of the Breach Side Chat...
Lots of nuggets, and lots of vague answers. It does show, at least to me, that Mack is excited, and wants us to be excited. It's got some cool things to it too.
To be honest, I'm not getting that impression at all. Sure, there's a lot of information given about the RPG in general but it's more of a 'Hey, see how cool our RPG will be? Get interested in it' instead of a 'Hey, see how cool our KS will be? Why not pledge now instead of waiting for it to hit retail" kind of vibe. Basically, same old same old, why would I pledge for the KS right now?
I've updated my last post with a "transcript" of the Breach Side Chat...
Lots of nuggets, and lots of vague answers. It does show, at least to me, that Mack is excited, and wants us to be excited. It's got some cool things to it too.
To be honest, I'm not getting that impression at all. Sure, there's a lot of information given about the RPG in general but it's more of a 'Hey, see how cool our RPG will be? Get interested in it' instead of a 'Hey, see how cool our KS will be? Why not pledge now instead of waiting for it to hit retail" kind of vibe. Basically, same old same old, why would I pledge for the KS right now?
I hear that. But I'm sorta with you. I'm still struggling to find enough reasons to back the KS, especially since I now know that Hannah will be made available later.
I keep hoping they'll do something to push me over the edge as any $$ I'd be putting into this are heavily competing with Kingdom Death. Although, I did get my wife's blessing on the KD Pinups yesterday. She actually likes them because she feels they're more "real woman" proportioned due to the big hips and legs accompanying the big...other things.
What exactly would be get, if all 'stretch goals' are achieved?
More pages in the two books?
Alph, this goes back to our graph reading skills It's not a chart of stretch goals. It's showing what level of funds will allow the RPG team to add more things in the book. Just because we haven't hit 200,000 dollars doesn't mean that creatures won't be released for the game, it's saying that it probably won't be included in the Fatemaster's almanac (forcing the release and development of a Monster Manual of sorts, but probably a lot less in content, not really worth it for a full book.
And Cincy, to answer your concerns, I'm almost certain that if the KS ended today (being over 175,000 dollars), we would most likely see two 200 page, full color books.
Actually I wasn't sure what the chart was conveying either- those with their ear to the ground for this KS obviously understand it, but as an outsider I was at a bit of a loss.
RiTides wrote: Actually I wasn't sure what the chart was conveying either- those with their ear to the ground for this KS obviously understand it, but as an outsider I was at a bit of a loss.
Just looking at the chart would confuse you, but if you read the update I quoted with it, it explains it pretty clearly. Here, I'll quote it again and add some emphasis
December 12th - over 581% of funding goal
Hi everyone!
Day Fifteen is coming to a close, so it’s time for the Daily Update!
I should say it’s time for another Hijacked Update! Yes indeed, Mack hinted yesterday that we’d soon have a realistic (although early) break down of how the Kickstarter funds translate into improvements and expansions for Through the Breach. We’ve prepared the breakdown, and Mack is serving it to you on a silver platter! Check out the graphic below!
Also, Mack hosted Breach Side Chat #2 this morning, and we’ve got that up on YouTube now for you – thanks everybody who was able to chime in today!
What exactly would be get, if all 'stretch goals' are achieved?
More pages in the two books?
Alph, this goes back to our graph reading skills It's not a chart of stretch goals. It's showing what level of funds will allow the RPG team to add more things in the book. Just because we haven't hit 200,000 dollars doesn't mean that creatures won't be released for the game, it's saying that it probably won't be included in the Fatemaster's almanac (forcing the release and development of a Monster Manual of sorts, but probably a lot less in content, not really worth it for a full book.
And Cincy, to answer your concerns, I'm almost certain that if the KS ended today (being over 175,000 dollars), we would most likely see two 200 page, full color books.
Do you have reason to believe it's two books and not one? Maybe you heard/read something I didnt. I posed the question because it's a bit unclear right now, but I'd love to know!
Honestly, I think you have to look at this project independent of the stretch goals, if your'e considering backing, because they unequivocally suck. They're lazy and half-arsed and they seem like they're there simply for crowd edification and not because Wyrd really believe in them.
Acording to their pledge rewards there are technically 3 books. A softcover Fated Almanac, a sofcover Fate Masters Almanac and a special edition Kickstarter exclusive Hardcover combined Fated Almanaz and Fat Masters Almanac.
My only reason for that we will see 2 books of 200+ pages and not 2 books of a combined total of 200+ pages are the following 1) Average Malifaux rulebook is roughly 200 pages full color pages for 35 bucks a piece. 2) The pages are making large jumps after adding rules (like the jump from 144 pages to 172. 3) Yes they're only adding Disposition rules, which would easily be 30 pages of rules, and nothing more. 4) Malifaux books tend to contain several 2 to 3 page short stories, and while we have no confirmation on this, I can see them continuing this trend with Through the Breach. Edit: 5) Caty's point that they already said it would be 2 books
Again Cincy, I could easily be making a snap judgement, I'll ask around with people I know at Wyrd if I can, and see if I can't gleam any information out of them.
As to your comments about the project independent of stretch goals? I agree, in fact unless a project has hit it's sweet spot (like Reaper Bones, Relic Knights, Mantics, etc...) you have to look at the project as though it won't get any good stretch goals. It was something we planned for with Endless Fantasy Tactics, it's something ANY kickstarter should be looking at, it does go back to my point pages ago that I think Reaper added a mindset to people that there is this magical sweet spot that every kickstarter will hit.
Edit: Nathan Caroland responds to some of the choices Wyrd has made, explains some of the "odd" choices made by the company
Nathan Caroland wrote:Your feedback of course is appreciated and welcome, and despite what some folks think, we do listen. That being said, just because its voiced, with fervor or not, doesn't mean its the route that we ourselves want to take with this particular KS.
We didn't start out to do a massive kickstarter to rival the ones everyone keeps tossing up as examples of 'how a kickstarter should be run'. We're doing the work regardless, but this kickstarter and the support offered early really helps us put time and money to it immediately without dragging it out over a long period of time. It also allows us to bring in additional writers and artists which allows us to speed up the process considerably.
Yes there are some wildly successful kickstarters out there giving away gobs and gobs of goodies, but those kickstarters are also victims of their own success in that quite a few of them don't make anywhere near the amount of profit that folks think when it comes down to it and the fervor clears and the excitement turns to actual work. Not all of them, but enough, particularly in our chosen industry.
Every little knick-knack and add on adds cost. It also adds labor and shipping. Not to mention that when you offer umpteen different options and quantities someone is bound to make a mistake and put in the wrong part or quantity of an item or leave it out altogether by accident. Now any reputable company is going to make right on this and go 'hey, sorry about that, lets get you sorted'. And they do, but that adds additional costs as someone needs to input error orders, pull the error order and get it packed up for shipping, and then ship that error order on their own dime because they missed putting a .03 cent part into the package and now have to ship it to the Netherlands for a few bucks.
It's amazing how things like that add up and you find any and all profit has simply gone *poof*.
We're not interested in having you add additional items to your order. Woooah, that's just crazy talk! No, not really. If you've got a few hundred orders that are X and another few hundred orders that are Y and a thousand orders that are XY, its easy to get them sorted quickly, quality checked, and out the door for the price that we've counted on for labor and shipping. If we allow everyone to add and customize their order that is a LOT more work for the folks inputting it into the order system (instead of selecting Package X that has all this, they have to select Package X and then add in whatever was additionally purchased), and the cost for time and labor just shot up, much less the opportunity for mistakes to be made as it was supposed to be three Hanna's included in that box, not two. Whoops, now we have to ship again on our dime. Not to mention there are some folks out there who's enthusiasm will end up turning that package into double or triple the shipping costs and you might as well have given the product away for free at that point as you are doing pennies instead of dollars.
While some may not believe it, we actually have gotten several e-mails from both distributors and retailers thanking us for not going for the kill and trying to get every single bit we can direct to us. Would I like to? Yeah, sure, who wouldn't like an increase in profit! At that same time why should we cut everyone's throat, including our own, when we can also work with others within the industry and at the retailer level and support each other. Believe me, those favorite local stores of yours go away and you'll notice it, and so would we. We would like to see everyone around for a long, long time.
I'm sure there are a few things that I haven't addressed here or made comment on but these few I did want to address and let folks know at least where we ourselves are coming from on this.
Again, thank you for your support and enthusiasm. It is very much appreciated.
What exactly would be get, if all 'stretch goals' are achieved?
More pages in the two books?
Alph, this goes back to our graph reading skills
...
I'm beginning to realize just how in lockstep with Wyrd you really are...
RiTides wrote:Actually I wasn't sure what the chart was conveying either- those with their ear to the ground for this KS obviously understand it, but as an outsider I was at a bit of a loss.
Huh - look at that!
I guess it really wasn't clear!
And... if a chart needs additional explanation, I'm guessing the chart... wasn't too clear to begin with.
Wyrd's attitude during this KS has been strangely antagonistic.
I'm thinking that you probably shouldn't seek to emulate that - it isn't really helpful.
Yeah, having read the update above, I've lost all interest in this now. They really aren't helping themselves, and their post seems to say "we want your cash, but can't be bothered with a whole bunch of sorting, or offering new and exciting things, so take what we offer and that's it".
I really don't see why they didn't just run this on their own website as a pre-order. Kickstarter has only been used as a marketing tool in this instance, and they seem to have had everything planned out from the beginning, so between that and a lack of choices, what's the point of bringing it to Kickstarter if there is so little option for generating excitement, new additional products, or fun for those who are backing this?
I'm out. And also, the chart was confusing and seemingly retro-active. Are you telling me that if they didn't get $30k that it would have been only in black and white? Please. I am now wondering if the things they had planned to include that were listed up to $300k will be dropped if they don't make it up to that level. I am betting they were in there originally, but when caught flat footed about what exactly was in the books, they needed to come up with something to show what each funding level achieved.
I think the chart is a big step in the right direction (albeit a step that comes two weeks later then it should have; it should have been the first update on stretch goals). Will it pump the campaign to new levels? Ehhh...
The thing is, and I've mentioned the conspicuous absence of a clear breakdown of where the money was going 2-3 times over a few forums, that breakdown needed to be out there. But a lot of people on the forums and comments seem to be treating this as a bonus, something above and beyond that is being provided. It's not. It's not an extra, it's a requirement. The absence of it was remarkable, its presence is only bringing things up to expectations.
Basically we're back to the state of things as they should have been at the start, but with the same underwhelming value for the pledges and underwhelming stretch goals.
The one thing we can say, though, is that the speculation that "Wyrd already considered this project a success and doesn't need/want any more cash" is clearly not the case. I mean, look at the "book plan";
It's pretty clear that they are counting on at least $250,000 to actually put out what most of us would consider "finished" books.
EDIT: Also, anyone else find it hilarious that Nathan's big-motha-post basically explains that they can't/won't include options because their shipping QC stinks? " [W]hen you offer umpteen different options and quantities someone is bound to make a mistake and put in the wrong part or quantity of an item or leave it out altogether by accident", " the opportunity for mistakes to be made"... as someone that received 2 different Kirai boxes that had a) passed quality check, and b) were missing a miniature, I certainly don't doubt that this is a real problem.
Sadly, it's clear that Wyrd really does not view kickstarter as a venture system, but as a pre-order: "Yes there are some wildly successful kickstarters out there giving away gobs and gobs of goodies, but those kickstarters are also victims of their own success in that quite a few of them don't make anywhere near the amount of profit that folks think when it comes down to it".
It's not about profit, it's about getting things to market. As long as they think it's about profit, they will continue to miss the point.
I don't see them hitting 250,000 either, but based on the Breach Side Chats, I also don't see them ignoring Skirmish Model Stats and Advanced Pursuits since Mack has already mentioned giving them to us in the book (Specially talks about the Elementalist Advanced Pursuit and Lady Justice's stats).
With nothing of Mack's words that I can think of atm, they might "ignore" the creature catalog...
Now If we could just get some preview images of the exclusive fate deck and how the fate decks for TTB differ, and a digital sculpt preview of Hannh, I may be in.
Well, that post of Nathan was a load of ****. Profit, really? It's kickstarter, it's supposed to be a crowd funding campaign. Where does immediate profit come into it? It's funding, not making a direct profit, that's supposed to come after the funding, especially if you sit on your high horse and talk about not waning to useKickstarter as a store, you know the thing that does want a direct profit. Somewhat odd, make up your mind, either use it for funding stuff, or just be honest in that it's a pre-order campaing and not a crowd funding one.
As far as the shipping he menioned, that's just... a non reason, either that or he has incompetent staff and should be looking to hire new ones who can read orders and pack them properly.
The chart however, is a good addition to the kickstarter. It should have been around earlier, true, but at least it's there now. Which is a step forwards.
Actually, you need to factor in some level of profit into your kickstarer or you'll go broke once you finish filling your initial orders and be unable to produce product for retail distribution. You still have to meet payroll as production goes forward, buy materials/supplies, then there's advertising which is on you to provide to distributers/retailers, etc.
Crowdfunding to a certain extent is pre-ordering. These campaigns aren't being run as charities after all.
Breotan wrote: Actually, you need to factor in some level of profit into your kickstarer or you'll go broke once you finish filling your initial orders and be unable to produce product for retail distribution. You still have to meet payroll as production goes forward, buy materials/supplies, then there's advertising which is on you to provide to distributers/retailers, etc.
Crowdfunding to a certain extent is pre-ordering. These campaigns aren't being run as charities after all.
Everything you mentioned is factored in prior to determining profit.
You need to maintain a good gross margin, to make sure that you can pay all expenses, but actual bottom line profit is different. The theory, for me at least, is that you make your profit on later sales.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nathan Caroland wrote:
It's amazing how things like that add up and you find any and all profit has simply gone *poof*.
While some may not believe it, we actually have gotten several e-mails from both distributors and retailers thanking us for not going for the kill and trying to get every single bit we can direct to us. Would I like to? Yeah, sure, who wouldn't like an increase in profit! At that same time why should we cut everyone's throat, including our own, when we can also work with others within the industry and at the retailer level and support each other. Believe me, those favorite local stores of yours go away and you'll notice it, and so would we. We would like to see everyone around for a long, long time.
[
So, remember: they're not going full bore with the KS because they want to keep profits up, and if they did that, they'd make more profit and hurt your FLGS.
Now If we could just get some preview images of the exclusive fate deck and how the fate decks for TTB differ, and a digital sculpt preview of Hannh, I may be in.
From what I took out of the first Breach Side Chat, the exclusive fate deck is a standard fate deck in how its numbered and suited. It also adds some player aids directly on the cards, from what I remember it was mostly dealing with the fates.
Now If we could just get some preview images of the exclusive fate deck and how the fate decks for TTB differ, and a digital sculpt preview of Hannh, I may be in.
From what I took out of the first Breach Side Chat, the exclusive fate deck is a standard fate deck in how its numbered and suited. It also adds some player aids directly on the cards, from what I remember it was mostly dealing with the fates.
I thought it also may have included like a generic trigger card? I could be wrong and would have to give the first chat another listen
Polonius wrote: Everything you mentioned is factored in prior to determining profit.
You need to maintain a good gross margin, to make sure that you can pay all expenses, but actual bottom line profit is different. The theory, for me at least, is that you make your profit on later sales.
Profit, is simply total revenue minus total cost. The initial costs of future production must come either from current profit or new investment. If the crowdfunding makes enough profit, there is no need for further investment to continue production and keep the cycle going.
Alfndrate wrote: Like I said, please take the model discussion talk to the thread that discusses the models. But we have a good update today!
D
We currently have 2 books for release after the KS Into the Bayou - More expanded lore and fluff of the Bayou, and you can create a gremlin
From Nightmares - Get to play as Neverborn and learn more about the natives to Malifaux.
All excellent news, and making me feel better about backing. This is still a very strangely run campaign with mixed messages from Wyrd.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alfndrate wrote: I don't see them hitting 250,000 either, but based on the Breach Side Chats, I also don't see them ignoring Skirmish Model Stats and Advanced Pursuits since Mack has already mentioned giving them to us in the book (Specially talks about the Elementalist Advanced Pursuit and Lady Justice's stats).
With nothing of Mack's words that I can think of atm, they might "ignore" the creature catalog...
Which would be a pretty bad call IMO. I would expect to fight undead, constructs, and assorted weirdos. Without that, you're limited to mechanical interaction with humansoids using the same creation/rules as PC's.
Wyrd really don't want custom do they! Poor excuses for a rubbish KS.
If this doesn't reach $250,000 (resulting in complete books), I pull my backing for the project. Not enough value for money and I can spend it elsewhere.
Is it wrong that I actually want the free/kickstarter only/exclusive/not for gamestores stuff? I'd double my money with them for a lot less than it would cost Wyrd to produce (Isn't that how businesses work?) if they simply offered a better investment.
02Laney wrote: Wyrd really don't want custom do they! Poor excuses for a rubbish KS.
If this doesn't reach $250,000 (resulting in complete books), I pull my backing for the project. Not enough value for money and I can spend it elsewhere.
Is it wrong that I actually want the free/kickstarter only/exclusive/not for gamestores stuff? I'd double my money with them for a lot less than it would cost Wyrd to produce (Isn't that how businesses work?) if they simply offered a better investment.
No it's not wrong man, people dive into these for different reasons, but Nathan's words here continue Wyrd's record of trying not to step on the toes of the flgs.
I'm not exactly sure why Gaming Kickstarters (this one in particular) are always worried about stepping on LGS toes. First off, as of right now, there are 1181 backers. Lets say each of them will be getting a set of books. Ok? So a little over 1000 people have books. Are they not expecting to sell many more over the years? 1000 players should be a drop in the bucket. There are FAR more Malifaux players than just 1000. If there werent, Wyrd wouldn't be in business.
Second, does it not occur to people/companies that alot of people don't actually have a local game store anywhere near them? Until very very recently, all I had is GW stores, and all they carry is GW stuff. The nearest one was at least a good 45/60 minute drive...and i live near Chicago! Why drive all that way when I can order if off of Warstore or Amazon at a discount of up to 40% and have it delivered straight to my door?
Just something to keep in mind when you go to preach about these ventures 'hurting' FLGS....
Polonius wrote: Everything you mentioned is factored in prior to determining profit.
You need to maintain a good gross margin, to make sure that you can pay all expenses, but actual bottom line profit is different. The theory, for me at least, is that you make your profit on later sales.
Profit, is simply total revenue minus total cost. The initial costs of future production must come either from current profit or new investment. If the crowdfunding makes enough profit, there is no need for further investment to continue production and keep the cycle going.
But that's actual profit, as in "money in owner's pockets" profit. And that's fine, I'm all for gaming companies making money. But I'm not horribly interested in whether Wyrd has a nice profit. I want value for my money. What you are saying is that a good kickstarter can mean that future production is at lower cost. That's great for the company, but even the moral benefit of Kickstarter isn't to increase profits, but to increase access to capital.
Let's not pretend that companies take a massive loss on kickstarters. Sure, some over promise or underprice. But for an established company like Wyrd, they get two huge benefits: first, advanced capital with a 10% upfront fee, but no interest payments. Second, they get to sell directly to consumers in a way few manufacturers still do. Retail sales for a company like Wyrd are mostly gravy, as they sell products at ~30% of retail to distributors. So, in this kickstarter, Wyrd is getting basically damn near full retail, a year in advance. So, instead of selling a book to an FLGS for 50% of retail, or to a distributor for 30% of retail, in a year, they get 90% of the price now, minus a few toss ins.
Just something to keep in mind when you go to preach about these ventures 'hurting' FLGS....
I think a lot of it is perception. As I note above, when a manufacturer sells at retail, it makes them a ton of money. OTOH, getting product into distribution and into FLGSs is what makes a game successful.
So, sure, a kickstarter could bring in a small fortune by aggressively pricing the product line, and cutting out the middleman. But, since by definition a Kickstarter is a new product, distributors and stores may not stock it, assuming the market is saturated.
Kaiohx, could you please define recently? When you're talking about gaming stores? Cause Chicago is far more of a city than Cleveland, and we've had gaming stores for at least the past 12 years (I started DnD in late 1999).
I was in Chicago almost 4 years ago, and there were 3 to 5 stores (including the Bunker) that stocked gaming supplies, hell I bought my first Warmachine models in Chicago..
From my words, it's not preaching about Wyrd not wanting to hurt the FLGS, it's actively something Wyrd tries not to do. Sure they sell some of the models early during GenCon or with their Birthday sale (you could pick up January and February's boxes in a 4 day period this past weekend), but you couldn't buy the December box, which comes to a FLGS near you in a week or so, but that December box won't be seen on Wyrd's webstore till after the New Year.
I'll admit I backed the Bones kickstarter for the figs, but at the end of the day, that's probably 100 dollars Reaper wouldn't have seen from me for years, since I buy DnD figures about once ever year or so when my character invariably dies, and I generally do it through Reaper's store so I can get the fig I want, instead of piecing through the haphazard collections of three different stores.
Alfndrate:
I moved here from Cleveland about 7 1/2 years ago, and back then Cleveland only had 2-3. Warzone, Matrix, Recess and maybe one more. Since then I know Matrix is gone, Recess is in the mall and could give a crap about RPGers since they moved to cards and stuffed animals, and I have no idea if Warzone is even still out there near Hopkins Airport.
In the Chicago area, there is/was Games Plus, Leisure Hours, Valhalla, Gaming Goat and a few more I cant remember. Games Plus and Gaming Goat are far far away from me, Leisure Hours primarily sells train and RC stuff with a few RPGs and some random tabletop stuff, Valhalla shut down after a few months, and all the others are mainly Magic/Yugioh/Pokemon stores. Everything else is GW. LIke you said, you think there would be more since Chicago is so big..but thats the problem. Its so big, driving anywhere is at least 45-60 minutes. You have to make a day of it.
The only exception to this for me is the Wandering Dragon, which opened up just before the summer. Great store in Plainfield. That's why I said very recently.
Also, I'm not sure that link of Hotsauceman1's you posted is a good argument. In fact, it goes on to further reinforce what I've said in many cases. Take Sedition Wars or Zombiecide. I personally didn't back them. My LGS carries them. If I decide I like them, I'll more than likely buy them from the store. I'm certainly not going to refuse to buy them because the KS backers got 200% more stuff than I am. Either way, it hasn't hurt my LGS at all.
Alfndrate wrote: From my words, it's not preaching about Wyrd not wanting to hurt the FLGS, it's actively something Wyrd tries not to do.
Which is why, given that they apparently think selling direct to be hurting FLGS, it's odd that they're doing a kickstarter at all.
They seem to be hypocritical about it- condemning other campaigns for hurting FLGS, yet making their own campaign... and in order to not hurt FLGS, doing a bad job of it
Yet, they seem to want to get to 250K at least, or perhaps 300K, to put all they want in the book. It's circular.
Idk here Matrix was, but the Warzone is still out there, it's known as Warzone Matrix now, still in that same gakky location... Recess had several shops in the malls, but they closed them all down but the one in the Great Lakes Mall near Mentor (though the one in the Great Northern Mall is supposed to be opening up again, with a focus on RPGs and TTGs again), and there is and has been Gamer's Haven out over in the Parma Heights/Strongsville area.
When I started back in 1999, there was Yannigan's Compendium over on Center Ridge Road within 10 minutes tops of most of the West Side of Cleveland.
I do find it interesting that Chicago, which holds AdeptiCon (Namely GW I know), doesn't have more stores... Granted there was one on the north side of Chicago that I went to, small place, got my butt beat by Dan from The Eternal Warriors Podcast, and there was Black Sun Games in like the heart of Chicago, but they closed...
As to the "making a day of it" I drive 60 minutes to get to my flgs... But then again, I also work a full time job before I go to the game store lol. The only time I wasn't already "in the area" for that store was the Friday after Thanksgiving...
Anyhooser... Should be getting today's update soon. Could somebody give a quick reply so I don't auto-append?
Edit: RiTides, I don't know why they did a kickstarter... I don't work with Justin, Mack, Eric or Nathan :-/ Maybe it was the mindset that they had with Evil Baby Orphanage, yes people have been asking Wyrd for an RPG for some time now, and I'm sure people were asking the Vlog Brothers about Evil Baby Orphanage... Idk man, if I had the answers I'd give them...
Minor update today guys, I'm going to drop off Dakka for a bit, Cyporiean has me editing EFT stuff tonight, and if I don't get it done, I don't get to live to see 2013...
Hi everyone!
Day Sixteen is coming to a close, so it’s time for the Daily Update! First things first, thank you for your awesome support!
$175K – Achieved!
You unlocked two more upgrades in our Through the Breach Book Plan. We’re now able to bump up both book lengths up to 200 pages, and we can include double the gear and magic!
Get ready for another hijacked update, ‘cause Mack is stealing the show again. We’re excited to announce that Mack will be joining game developer Jeff McCord (Sword of Fargoal 2) tomorrow at 3:30 PST for a half-hour discussion about our Through the Breach Kickstarter project!
Jeff had a successful Kickstarter campaign last October (http://far.gl/sof-ks), and one of the things that he and his team created during the campaign was the Kick-a-thon — a live, streaming video podcast that celebrates creative game projects which are being supported by Kickstarter campaigns.
For just shy of 24 hours they will be interviewing about 30 different game-related project owners and teams. Catch Mack Martin discussing Through the Breach at 3:30! Follow this link: http://www.freelancelot.com/kickathon/what-is-it/ and find the “Subscribe” button at the bottom of the page to listen in tomorrow!
These updates are just terrible. It reads like PepsiCo's PR firm wrote it...
You unlocked two more upgrades in our Through the Breach Book Plan. We’re now able to bump up both book lengths up to 200 pages, and we can include double the gear and magic!
Well that's... underwhelming. As per usual. Just by happenstance I have my D&D 4ed Player's handbook at hand, 316 pages, hardbacked, $34.95. Heroes of the Fallen Lands (a 4e essentials book), 360ish pages, softcover, $19.95.
Wyrd is offering for $60 (paid nearly a year in advance!)... a pair of 200 page softcovers. So... originally they were really going to give people a pair of 128 page books for that? Really? Really?
They are bound and determined to offer as little as possibly to backers, it's really become quite fascinating.
Buzzsaw wrote: They are bound and determined to offer as little as possibly to backers, it's really become quite fascinating.
Yea, I've given up trying to figure out what the hell they were thinking with this whole kickstarter project. On one hand, I just cannot believe that they are that blithely stupid. On the other hand, there is just so much evidence to the contrary.
Buzzsaw wrote: So... originally they were really going to give people a pair of 128 page books for that?
You forgot black & white.
I feel like some of those goals were misrepresentative of their actual goals. If Wyrd had launched with two 128-page B+W books for $60 without an enemies collection, it probably would have seriously damaged their rep. I can't actually believe that that was ever a goal that would have represented "success", meaning I'm feeling fairly deceived by Wyrd right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As my wife put it, it's like buying an ever-expanding mystery bag, that started as a bag of dog gak, when it should have started at 100% of what they wanted to put out (i.e. success) and grown from there to be better.
Talking about our own comic and a hypothetical kickstarter some time way down the line, it isn't like we would say "and, at $4k, you get all the text bubbles!"
As another analogy, some years back, I bought a Sonic game, where you start out as terrible, and, but a third of the way through the game, you have a basic move set, instead of how most games start with a basic move set, and by a third of the way through, you get some cool stuff. Said game was the only game I've dumped in the same weekend I bought it in.
I really like everything else Wyrd's done so far (except Evil Baby Orphanage, but that's 'cause I don't know anything about it, not that I don't like it), but this is feeling really... wrong. I'm still getting the basic rules, but had been saving for some time to throw all my disposable cash at Wyrd (preferably Futurama-style).
Some of the things on the list are honestly just silly.
$25,000 (from $175,000-200,000) to develop the "Creature catalogue[sic]"? Which apparently doesn't contain the stats for the models from their skirmish game? (As that comes another $25,000 later...).
In the fine print they say they plan the line to have 8 books total. Okay, so... all of those are coming after $300,000? Are being developed now? Eh?
At $75,000 they have "2x Writers" for the Almanac, but it takes $100,000 to get them to work on the FM book?
There is a constant drumbeat on their forums about how they're "putting all the money back into the product", but... c'mon. So they can't write two complete 228 page books for $200,000? Do these writers get paid by the word or something? They need $250,000 to finish two books?
The only way that chart really makes sense is if they looked at people comparing their KS unfavorably to Numenera and simply cribbed some numbers from it. Every $50,000 the pages in the books just increase by 28. It's not even related to features they claim are going in, they just go up.
Buzzsaw wrote: There is a constant drumbeat on their forums about how they're "putting all the money back into the product", but... c'mon. So they can't write two complete 228 page books for $200,000? Do these writers get paid by the word or something? They need $250,000 to finish two books?
I mostly agree with you, but books cost a lot of money, they really do. Especially with a lot of staff, illustrations, etc. If that's how much it'll cost, it's fine, in my opinion. Printing alone is going to be a huge chunk of that-- a short run of 200+page full color could easily run $20 ea. for printing alone (though Wyrd would be doing longer runs, so cheaper). Also, remember that money is also going towards rewards, shipping, etc. which, while not as awesome as some KS's, is still money.
Its not every day I'm proven to be an idiot. I wanted so badly for this KS to do well, but Wyrd has gone out of their way to thwart me. When they released the list of things the money is funding, my faith was renewed...and then in the span of 24 hours, Nathan shot themselves in the face with his 'we don't really need you guys' post. Nothing like being told the whole Kickstarter project is pointless. And let me stop you kool-aid drinkers there. He flat out said it is all getting made whether or not the KS does well. The money from the KS is simply to speed it up and add some extra stuff early. He also talked about a whole bunch of other stuff that makes them look inept and incompetent.
Then when I made a valid post shooting holes in every point he made, pretty much everyone (including him) blew it off and made a joke of it. Good idea...piss off your backers some more. Well, I can say I don't consider myself a backer or investor anymore. It is very clear we are customers and that they are using this kickstarter as a pre-order. What else could be said about it? Its getting made whether its backed or not.
To Buzzsaw...I apologize, you were right. I had hoped you weren't, but Wyrd made you right.
Then when I made a valid post shooting holes in every point he made, pretty much everyone (including him) blew it off and made a joke of it. Good idea...piss off your backers some more..
Seriously? I might have to trip over to the Wyrd forums and have a look for myself. Sadly, it doesn't surprise me.
@kaiohx that took a lot of guts to say. like yourself i was skeptical at first just waiting to see if anything got better... but everyday its the same tune. If you don't agree they tell you to get off the thread.
when i look at other kickstarters i try and compare them not just the "free/preorder" goodies they are giving away. But also to get a rough idea where to start, stretch goals, etc. I don't understand with Wyrd why they would need so much money for this project when other kickstarters of rpg books are cheaper and have had better stretch goals.
I personally think they took a drubbing with their new plastics as far as costs they did not anticipate. Or when they pull models back for quality control they would have to pay to make them right the second time...
Read through the latest bits of the wyrd forum thread and its pretty predictable - someone comes out with questions and critique of the company, its laughed off and joked about by a larger group.
I agree though, as much as I like Malifaux and Wyrd, I'm not planning on this KS or RPG. Maybe if someone else buys a copy I'll have a good read and then decide, but theres too much other stuff I fancy at the moment.
I am honestly amazed at the blind following of this.
People are just throwing money at it for no other reason then the figure game. I don't even think half of the people actually read through this trainwreck before they pledged.
Ignorance is bliss, I guess.
As a project this one is up there in the realm of, "Selling you snow in a snowstorm."
Wierd has proven the old addege, that a sucker is born every minute.
Grot 6 wrote: I am honestly amazed at the blind following of this.
People are just throwing money at it for no other reason then the figure game. I don't even think half of the people actually read through this trainwreck before they pledged.
Ignorance is bliss, I guess.
As a project this one is up there in the realm of, "Selling you snow in a snowstorm."
Wierd has proven the old addege, that a sucker is born every minute.
They're not really selling us snow in a snowstorm, we're not exactly inundated with roleplaying games... Perhaps you should be asking those of us that backed the kickstarter, if we'd like to buy a bridge, because I do have a moat around my house
I'm backing the kickstarter because of several reasons that aren't crazy, nor are they blindly following the kickstarter. 1) Mack Martin has a background in RPGs, and has produced several quality games/products for Fantasy Flight Games, 2) I love roleplaying games, and I'm always looking for different games to try, 3) Wyrd hasn't led me astray yet with any of their products (surprisingly EBO is fun, especially when you're just looking to waste 20 minutes), and until they do, I'll look forward to anything they release. 4) I have had issues with the KS, they're in this thread, but Wyrd has assuaged my fears and I'm still looking forward to this.
Grot 6 wrote: I am honestly amazed at the blind following of this.
As a project this one is up there in the realm of, "Selling you snow in a snowstorm."
adhuin wrote: I'm curious. Which games/rpgs (before Through the Breach), were made by Mack?
From what I know, Mack was the lead developer on Dust Warfare and Dust Tactics. He was a part of the RPG development team for Fantasy Flight Games, involved with Only War, Dark Heresy, Deathwatch, and Black Crusade, the 40kRPG games.
At the moment I can't spare funds for this and KD.
If I back KD I get bonus stuff and help the project. With Malifaux I don't seem to get much incentive...why not just spend elsewhere and pick the game up on release?
I'm just not feeling it - which is a great pity as I really like Malifaux's background and style.
To those that have tried to bash the, "if you don't like it, don't back it" mentality it's a valid thing. If you have concerns about the KS, the project, or how it's being run, don't back it, no one can fault you for not wanting to take the risk or not seeing the value.
As it's been said on dakka before, value is jugemental. I feel I'm getting my money's worth, other's don't. Back what you really like.
Alfndrate wrote: To those that have tried to bash the, "if you don't like it, don't back it" mentality it's a valid thing. If you have concerns about the KS, the project, or how it's being run, don't back it, no one can fault you for not wanting to take the risk or not seeing the value.
As it's been said on dakka before, value is jugemental. I feel I'm getting my money's worth, other's don't. Back what you really like.
The problem with this though is thAt everyone in this thread WANTED to back but continues to be turned off by Wyrds attitude toward the KS. Losing a person that was never a customer in the first place is one thing. Losing someone that wanted to be a customer means you did something to turn them away. Big diff.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also... Can we get links to the Wyrd thread where you were dismissed? I'd like to read.
I know man, I'm not contesting that those that aren't backing in this thread (for the most part) weren't potential backers at some point. There's no antagonistic tone in my voice (text).
Grot 6 wrote: I am honestly amazed at the blind following of this.
People are just throwing money at it for no other reason then the figure game. I don't even think half of the people actually read through this trainwreck before they pledged.
Ignorance is bliss, I guess.
As a project this one is up there in the realm of, "Selling you snow in a snowstorm."
Wierd has proven the old addege, that a sucker is born every minute.
Or, you know, the game sounds interesting and I like what Wyrd has done so far with the Malifaux universe so I'm willing to shell out $60 to try this out. Yeah it's not Zombiecide, but honestly I don't really care, $60 for what I'm getting is pretty good.
I was out and about when this hit, apparently there have been some changes to the chart (I heard rumors that the Red Joker was moved, so it is included in this post)
December 14th - over 595% of funding goal
Hi everyone!
Day Seventeen is coming to a close, so it’s time for the Daily Update!
Today, we’re keeping the update short and sweet. The Breach Side Chat returns next week! Check out Chat #3 on Monday at 5:30 p.m. PST (12/17) to ask Mack questions about the RPG development. As before, it’ll be live, so maybe you can catch him off-guard and get a sneak peek at Through the Breach secrets!
One more shout out to our friends at Fargoal who interviewed Mack today! Check out their live series of interviews here: http://kickathon.net/calendar/ They’ve rounded up game developers all across Kickstarter to talk about their games, their fans, and their experiences with Kickstarter. Link to Mack’s interview, coming soon.
Alright, that’s it for today.
Hey. . . wait a minute. Which one of you moved the Red Joker??
Until Monday!
Jacqulyn
So Under Quarantine? Anyone that knows a little bit about the city of Malifaux knows that the Ressers and undead tend to roam/rule the Quarantine Zones around Malifaux. So, it looks like we will have rules for creating "Fated Stiched" This could mean Stitched Together (but they're a neverborn minion) or dolls that Collodi makes, but again... Neverborn... So, Mack Martin actually gave a straight answer:
Mack.Martin wrote:Well, it's the Necromancy book... besides puppets, I wonder what you could stitch together from parts you have lying around...
So you might be able to play as one of Seamus's girls, a punk zombie controlled by Nicodem at times, or more likely, you'll be similar to Molly Squidpidge.
You want stretch goals? Well Custom Fatemaster Screens are coming! Now idk if these are addons like they said they wouldn't do, or if it's an added reward we'll unlock to be given at the 125+ levels. Who knows, but it is something tangible.
Hi everyone!
Day Twenty is coming to a close, so it’s time for the Daily Update!
Today we’re excited to announce an update for the $200,000 Stretch Goal. We have just secured the means to offer a Custom Through the Breach FateMaster Screen as an added reward!
For more info on this Stretch Goal Update and for answers to your @BreachSideChat questions, tune in at 5:30 p.m. PST tonight to catch Mack Martin on ustream.tv/channel/through-the-breach !
I'd have preferred they filled in the x25k/x75k than doubled up, but that's a nice addition. What's up with the digital book and the tree at 250k? was that always the case for that?
Some small improvement - I'm still in by the skin of my teeth at the minute. It's still a pretty lump of carboard and a pdf for a 50k kickstarter jump. Not to be too negative - it does seem that some listening and responding by Wyrd is now occurring and the expansions sound rather cool too.
What I really want to see on the kickstarter is improved graphics, miniature concepts, cover art etc. Something to get me excited about the game. Podcasts (don't have the time or inclination) and text aren't so engaging. The kickstarter should reflect the game, shouldn't it?
02Laney wrote: Some small improvement - I'm still in by the skin of my teeth at the minute. It's still a pretty lump of carboard and a pdf for a 50k kickstarter jump. Not to be too negative - it does seem that some listening and responding by Wyrd is now occurring and the expansions sound rather cool too.
What I really want to see on the kickstarter is improved graphics, miniature concepts, cover art etc. Something to get me excited about the game. Podcasts (don't have the time or inclination) and text aren't so engaging. The kickstarter should reflect the game, shouldn't it?
Laney
I've seen some of the art, and would repost it if I could. The art quality and style are on par with at least the Book 3 and 4 art. Book 2 has too much concept art, and I believe Book 1 used concept art where a model didn't exist (I don't have any of my books on me).
As for the the podcasts (Gamer's Lounge and the Breach Side Chats), pop them on at work. Take your iPod (if it's a pretty recent one) or smart phone, listen to the Breach Side Chats through YouTube, and Nix's podcast is almost always the place to go for behind the scenes. He's kinda Mali-famous, and I don't think Wyrd has problems interviewing with Nix just because of how much Nix does for the game, how his podcast which was 40k centric, is now almost all Malifaux, and just how nice of a guy he is. Sorry you don't have the inclination, but there is always time in this digital age to listen to something., throw it on while you shower in the morning, download it and play it through your car's speakers on your morning commute, at work, before you go to sleep.
It's a neat addition, and if it turns out to be a free stretch goal adds a good bit of value.
spiralingcadaver wrote: I'd have preferred they filled in the x25k/x75k than doubled up, but that's a nice addition. What's up with the digital book and the tree at 250k? was that always the case for that?
I think the x25k and x75k goals are ment to be page number expansions to the two main books.
Catyrpelius wrote: I think the x25k and x75k goals are ment to be page number expansions to the two main books.
Good point! I wish they'd have combined the stretch goals and the book plan, but I can hardly blame Wyrd for not combining those elements, since they are both at the top of the page...
Catyrpelius wrote: I think the x25k and x75k goals are ment to be page number expansions to the two main books.
Good point! I wish they'd have combined the stretch goals and the book plan, but I can hardly blame Wyrd for not combining those elements, since they are both at the top of the page...
I haven't heard back from Jac on the "Custom" part of the FateMasters Screen... will keep you guys informed
Edit: Jac replied to me (happy that I didn't have to wait very long)
Thanks for your question. "Custom" refers to the fact that the screen will be customized for the game, i.e. it may have Through the Breach rules, artwork, cheat sheets, and such.
Best, Jac
So custom doesn't really mean anything other than it's not going to be a generic RPG ruleset, it's going to look and feel like it belongs in Through the Breach.... The "May" in her email kind of worries me... Though that might just be "marketing" spin, kind of like, "I can't tell you... BUT..."
BrookM wrote: Maybe when there's five days or so still to go we might see a total change of strategies!
Really the only things they could change are, adding addons and adding a pledge level for the pdf only. The later I think we will see if they unlock the pdf copy for everyone at the $60 and up level.
BrookM wrote: Maybe when there's five days or so still to go we might see a total change of strategies!
Really the only things they could change are, adding addons and adding a pledge level for the pdf only. The later I think we will see if they unlock the pdf copy for everyone at the $60 and up level.
Call me a pessimist, but I doubt we'll be seeing the pdf copies unlocked.
BrookM wrote: Maybe when there's five days or so still to go we might see a total change of strategies!
Really the only things they could change are, adding addons and adding a pledge level for the pdf only. The later I think we will see if they unlock the pdf copy for everyone at the $60 and up level.
Call me a pessimist, but I doubt we'll be seeing the pdf copies unlocked.
With 23 days left I think we will see it happen, atleast I'd like to think that.
I'm actually kind of suprised their going to release it as a PDF instead of following in the footsteps of GW and releasing through ITunes, or even going through the Kindle or Nook stores, atleast try and make it alittle difficult for people to pirate it.
This campaign is really fascinating from a psychological perspective on marketing. For example, last week there was an uptick that was more or less associated in time with the release of the detailed plan of the books on the 12th.
Now, as I mentioned, the presumption was that this was related to the plan being released. I wonder though, if what we saw wasn't a combination of people that were lingering, intending to pledge already, but a bit uncertain about the overall goal, but that the real motivation for the upswing at the end of the week was the end of the free PDF adventure promotion.
You'll notice that the pledges drop off dramatically on Saturday (post promotion), decreasing through the weekend. While the temptation might be to blame the weekend or the impending holiday, I'm not sure that's accurate, as looking at KD's graph over the same time period shows a dramatic increase over the weekend. Though that is probably due to particular virtues of the KD campaign, rather then a specific quality of this weekend.
I agree with you Buzz, its going to be especially interesting to look back on after the campaign ends. I think one of the reasons I back so many kickstarters is because of how fascinating Kickstarter is as a meens to an end.
We've all been clamoring for more (cue the Usher music). I think this is probably the biggest update of the drive, too bad it couldn't be here early. We've got pics of the "concept" art of the Male Multi-Pose Mini
Hi everyone!
Day Twenty-One is coming to a close, so it’s time for the Daily Update!
Feast your eyes on the graphic below! We are excited to present to you the concept sketches for our Multi-Pose Male Mini sprue! While some elements of the mini may change between this early stage and final production, today’s update will give you an idea of the variety of options and the degree of customization we’re aiming for.
I'm kind of excited. It looks like you can make 3 minis per sprue, based off of the number of legs. And the concept art to 3d sculpt has been an almost near match, so I'm pretty excited.
I think this sprue could only get better if you it sort of clicked together (like of like old Gundam Models, not the super detailed ones, but the middle of the road ones), so you could change out legs, heads, torsos, etc...
BrookM wrote: Maybe when there's five days or so still to go we might see a total change of strategies!
Really the only things they could change are, adding addons and adding a pledge level for the pdf only. The later I think we will see if they unlock the pdf copy for everyone at the $60 and up level.
Call me a pessimist, but I doubt we'll be seeing the pdf copies unlocked.
With 23 days left I think we will see it happen, atleast I'd like to think that.
I'm actually kind of suprised their going to release it as a PDF instead of following in the footsteps of GW and releasing through ITunes, or even going through the Kindle or Nook stores, atleast try and make it alittle difficult for people to pirate it.
That would take mor effort than Wyrd probably wants to put forth. Plus, it could get screwed up in shipping and just cause a huge problem.
Looking at the bottom row also might be a sort of "indicator" of the different types of fated you can be.
The last two in that row are obvious, Fated Stiched (Undead) and Fated Neverborn, the first two in that row are probably either Arcanists or Miners & Steamfitter's Union (So magic or constructs, though you probably wouldn't be a construct). The middle guy doesn't really stand out that much, just seems to be your standard bandito... The only thing is that these sprues are designed for height 2 sized models (pulling from the skirmish game as reference). So we're likely not going to see gremlins, though there are plenty of models in Malifaux that would work, since there aren't many characters for that little sub-faction.
And Spiraling, if you could get your hands on 3 more legs in that scale (third party, etc...) you could get 6 completely different looking minis out of a single sprue.
BrookM wrote: Maybe when there's five days or so still to go we might see a total change of strategies!
Really the only things they could change are, adding addons and adding a pledge level for the pdf only. The later I think we will see if they unlock the pdf copy for everyone at the $60 and up level.
Call me a pessimist, but I doubt we'll be seeing the pdf copies unlocked.
With 23 days left I think we will see it happen, atleast I'd like to think that.
I'm actually kind of suprised their going to release it as a PDF instead of following in the footsteps of GW and releasing through ITunes, or even going through the Kindle or Nook stores, atleast try and make it alittle difficult for people to pirate it.
That would take mor effort than Wyrd probably wants to put forth. Plus, it could get screwed up in shipping and just cause a huge problem.
I'm not sure I understand exactly what could get screwed up in shipping.
Nice update though. I really hope that Wyrd makes these multi-pose models into their own product line, maybe even extending the line to other genres.
Cincy has been fairly critical in his posts, and honestly, that post right there is probably one and only of his that might count as flamebaiting.
Wyrd mentioned about shipping issues, and the different pledge levels were set to make shipping easier for Wyrd, so that everyone gets the book, then you go through and ship out those, then you add the fate decks, multi-pose mini, and hard cover book and ship those out. Next you'll add 1 of each gender for the mini, and Hannah, ship those out. Finally you add the Wicked Dolls to those final boxes that got everything and ship those out.
Also, I'm listening to the latest Breach Side Chat, will let you guys know what's contained
Alfndrate wrote: Cincy has been fairly critical in his posts, and honestly, that post right there is probably one and only of his that might count as flamebaiting.
Accusations of 'flamebaiting' and 'trolling' are something that shouldn't really be done, and aren't something that is viewed favorably.
If anyone has an issue with a post, please use the "Mod Alert" button (the exclamation point in the yellow triangle) that is located on every post.
Alfndrate wrote: Cincy has been fairly critical in his posts, and honestly, that post right there is probably one and only of his that might count as flamebaiting.
Wyrd mentioned about shipping issues, and the different pledge levels were set to make shipping easier for Wyrd, so that everyone gets the book, then you go through and ship out those, then you add the fate decks, multi-pose mini, and hard cover book and ship those out. Next you'll add 1 of each gender for the mini, and Hannah, ship those out. Finally you add the Wicked Dolls to those final boxes that got everything and ship those out.
Also, I'm listening to the latest Breach Side Chat, will let you guys know what's contained
That wasn't really what I was trying to get across...
To expand on my comment. I agree with Cincy that releasing the rulebooks through Apple or Kindle/Nook is probably more work then they wan't to put into it, but going that route make sense. I guess going with an actual pdf eliminates compatability issues and might have been seen as a way to apease backers, but it doesn't make much sense finacially, atleast to me.
I'm actually interested to hear what cincy has to say about shipping though and it did actually raise a question/issue in my mind that I think might be where he is going with it. Distributing a PDF is pretty easy and there are a number of different and simple ways it can be done. Giving everyone a copy of rules in a digital format of their choice does add alot of complication.
Wyrd could easily do what smaller companies do. Go through Wargames Vault or w/e OTL uses. You get an email when the pdf is updated, and you download a copy with your name on the bottom of the pages. This allows the company to make simple changes, or even errata, etc.. and
PDFs aren't all that secure in today's day and age, and even having a name in the pdf could be stripped out and put up on the internet. PDFs also carry the added benefit, as you said, with not having compatability issues.
I also think PDF was chosen over an eReader format for mobile devices is simply because of a laptop at the table than a mobile device. Most people are going to have a smart phone, maybe a Kindle, iPad, Nook, etc... but more people are probably going to have a notebook more.
Alfndrate wrote: Wyrd could easily do what smaller companies do. Go through Wargames Vault or w/e OTL uses. You get an email when the pdf is updated, and you download a copy with your name on the bottom of the pages. This allows the company to make simple changes, or even errata, etc.. and
PDFs aren't all that secure in today's day and age, and even having a name in the pdf could be stripped out and put up on the internet. PDFs also carry the added benefit, as you said, with not having compatability issues.
I also think PDF was chosen over an eReader format for mobile devices is simply because of a laptop at the table than a mobile device. Most people are going to have a smart phone, maybe a Kindle, iPad, Nook, etc... but more people are probably going to have a notebook more.
It is interesting concept though.
An eReader format is much more secure though. While more people may bring a laptop to the table both Kindle and Nook and possibly Apple offer an app to read in their format on a computer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Personally I think it would be eaier for me to have it in Kindle format, I find that to be the easiest way to move stuff from my laptop to my smartphone to my kindle to my ipad.
Caty, I agree that an eReader is more secure (though I've found ways around this too for college classes, silly education professors asking us to "Buy" an eBook). And yeah, I think you can get iBook on your computer (idk if it's Mac only though). A pdf is the way they're going to go with it... I mean Paizo does PDFs and they're still making money on them... We'll see, I'll throw Jac a question today and see what's going on.
And, I know my kindle can read pdfs without issue... I sent Jac the email, we'll see
Breach Side Chat #3
Spoiler:
So some questions that Mack is answering in his latest Breach Side Chat:
What are Fated Stiched? - Fated Stiched is the name Mack has been using for things you'd expect Frankenstein to built (or in Malifaux's case Dr. McMourning). The Fated Stiched are undead that will be released in the Quarantine Zone book. Which led into the next question about the books. Through the Breach will have a start and end (so they won't be developing books for years ala DnD or Pathfinder). The line will contain the 2 rulebooks, the 6 supplemental books, and then penny dreadfuls (which might take a few years to come out as they have no set deadline for the release of the books/final Penny Dreadful).
FateMaster Screen? - As we saw 2 days ago, they announced the FM's Screen, Mack didn't think they initially needed one, but after playtesting, he wanted a place to put quick reference charts, art to set the mood, and a place for the FM to hide his notes. Will be added to the 125 level once we hit that stretch goal. Might do something fancy for the players and put quick references on the outward facing side, but he admits the text will have to be large. Map of Malifaux might be the most likely solution. Current speculation is that World Work Games is the company that would make it (ala terraclips, but without those terra-bad clips though I don't mind them lol).
When do you expect the books to come out? - Not every month, they don't have the man power that Pathfinder has, but possibly 2 to 3 a year. Hoping that core books are 4 to 6 months a book, but it's not set in stone.
Other Fated? - Question about playing as wicked dolls, or puppets. Nothing set, it's tricky, but it should be doable to make with an FM and the rules of the system.
Multi-Pose Minis in stores? - Mack says he doesn't know, though that's not in the RPG development side of things. Though imo, nothing on the KS says they're special edition or KS exclusive, so it's safe to assume they would be available in stores. What do you think 20 bucks a sprue? 3 minis for 7 bucks a piece (technically less).
When will playtesting start? - He wants to get it at the end of the month (probably January), wants a solid basis for external playtesting so he's not fixing major t hings and sending it back out to the playtesters. Feb or March is more likely the timing though.
How will crafting work like custom guns or replacement limbs? - Might be in with the item (like a Crafting DC or steps), might be something longer with templates for players and FMs to make their own. He fully expects players to craft their own guns, make their own special bullets, tinkerers replacing limbs with built in guns for the gunslinger who lost an arm. Not expecting people to put a lot into the crafting for a character to be able to do it, but those that do will get awesome things.
Will characters be able to replace lost limbs to counter-act the nasty damage that happens when you drop to 0 HP Damage is split into 3 different categories when you hit 0. Severe: loss of limb, high severe probably means death. Moderate: Cracked ribs, broken nose or arm, things that will affect you for a few weeks. Weak: Swollen eye, sprained ankle or knee, stuff that lasts the combat. HP is sort of a buffer before the "major" bodily damage happens.
Penny Dreadfuls will be released interspersed with the rest of the books.
Will all the characters have to start out on the Earth Side even with subsequent releases? Technically they start just after passing through the breach, and with players playing gremlins, they're not just a human that's 3 foot shorter and green, etc... It also looks like you're not going back to the Earth Side (which is kind of sad, it might make for a fun excursion. Cross the breach and find out they're just regular people on the Earth Side, and they gotta adjust, do they go back and ignore the reason why they came there or finish it and return to their fates, despite the lack of power.
Will there be an initiative flip? Yes, monsters have pre-set initiative, and the players all flip, in the case of a tie, you check who has the highest speed, if they have the same speed, the player goes first. If the players all tie themselves, they decide their order, unless they're all against each other, then the FM decides.
Referring to the C. Hoffman fluff, does that happen to the Fated or does it happen elsewhere? - Mack doesn't know :( To be honest, neither do I. If I remember correctly, C. Hoffman became the machine whiz he is, as he crossed through the breach. The power was unlocked. That's all I know though.
Will weapon stats be static, or will they be weak/moderate/severe? - They will have the w/m/s stats. This lead into the minion/henchmen/master rules...
What is the m/h/m? - All NPCs are broken down into three ranks, minion/henchman/master, like in the game. This affects when the NPCs stop in a fight and what they flip, etc... Minions stop at 0 wounds, Henchmen fight until they receive a moderate negative effect applied to him, and Masters fight till the death.
Freikorpsmen, Is that a pursuit, or just a thing? - Sounds like an Advanced Pursuit to me (Mack's words).
What is the tech level, auto loaders, horseless carriages, etc.. - Steampunk, auto loaders with steampunk and magic involved, horseless carriage, probably some elemental level or something. Not full cars, think the tech around the time just before the first cars were released in our timeline.
Do players get just 1 action a turn, or multiple actions? - Players get 2 actions just like in the skirmish game. There will be "feats" that can give more or less actions like fast, slow, melee expert, etc... No 0 actions spelled out, it's more or less something they can just do...
Skills? - Lots of skills, skill + attribute + flip.
More on gaining Action Points? - Advanced pursuits can also get you more AP, but you can never receive more than 1 bonus from the same source. So if your advanced pursuit gives melee expert +1, and melee master +2, you don't get both, you get one or the other.
What is your favorite line of fate? - "You will be the uninvited" or "You will be undone" (Black joker's fate. You will be unmade is the flavor text. Man that would suck if you knew your fate was going to gak on you like that.
Different magic types? - 6 types? Necromancy, Enchantment, Counter Spelling, Sorcery (elements), harness soulstone. Buying up specific spell abilities, making them cooler. Mack is trying to add a make your own spell powers. More like Infused abilities rather than spells
Technomancy like Hoffman? - Won't be called that, but will be artificy or something like that.
Creature Catalog at 200k? - NPC sections will be added no matter what, but more pages allows him to allow to add tons of creatures, different neverborn, some that aren't in the skirmish game. And Skirmish Stats means that every model in the skirmish game that has a stat card, would be put into the Fatemaster's book.
If advanced pursuits are at 225k, what happens if we don't get them? - They go into the expansion books. He would like to include some advanced pursuits like freikorpsman, or death marshal, guild guard, etc... in the core rules.
Threw around the term, "Santana Claus" which means we might see Santana being included at some point in the next week or so.
Fatedborn, would these be natural born Malifaux Neverborn, or humans turned into neverborn? - No different between the two of them. How you become a neverborn is up to the storyline. Also ways to make those changes mid game. Like becoming a fated situation?
No insanity scale, so characters can go crazy, but there are no set rules.
Will there be rules on Play by Post? - Maybe? didn't really think about that, might include a few pages. Not against it, just hadn't though about it.
Fated My Little Ponies? - Seriously, someone asked that wtf? (from me). Not a core feature...
Sorry, was just a bit of sarcasm there No real damage intended. Yes, I made the remark because of Wyrd's BS "Shipping ez hard" comments, but also because, based on the... haphazard.... way this KS has been thrown together, I have a hard time believing that Wyrd would have any interest in taking the extra development time for one of the proprietary formats.
GW went through Apple for a few reasons:
1. It's more secure. Are there ways around the security? Absolutely. Is it more effort than the average joe is willing to undergo? I think the general consensus is yes.
2. GWs iBooks rulebooks are MUCH more than simple PDFs. They're actually quite nice.
I think GW was in a tough spot when deciding to do them. They could have released simple PDF versions, but then the constiuency would have certainly clamored for something more. They went the very nice, well developed road, and it's now limited to iOS for the time being
I think something like wargames vault or drivethrurpg is CLEARLY the way to go with their PDF.
With that being said, I'm pretty impressed by the concept art of the multi-part minis. Not bad at all.
Interesting update in the 3rd Breach Side Chat. Something I'd like to see in an upcoming Breach Side Chat would be to talk with someone on the more kickstarter side of things.
You have to remember a few things about downloading PDFs, eBooks, etc. too: we're still in a niche hobby and they're not always easy to find.
I've certainly downloaded a textbook or eBook or three when I cand find them. When I can't quickly or easily find them, most of the time I'll just buy them. Every dollar made from an eBook sale is money in the bank, as the writer's cost is often a sunk cost taken on at the beginning and has no bearing on the sales of said book beyond a small royalty.
cincydooley wrote: You have to remember a few things about downloading PDFs, eBooks, etc. too: we're still in a niche hobby and they're not always easy to find.
I've certainly downloaded a textbook or eBook or three when I cand find them. When I can't quickly or easily find them, most of the time I'll just buy them. Every dollar made from an eBook sale is money in the bank, as the writer's cost is often a sunk cost taken on at the beginning and has no bearing on the sales of said book beyond a small royalty.
I agree with most of this, but when I ran a Malifaux league a few years ago there were a few players that were using pdf copies of the 1st and 2nd rulebooks.
Alpharius wrote: I can't believe how much this campaign is struggling right now.
Maybe it is just the pre-holiday budget tightening for many?
I dunno.... it's going to CONTINUE to have problems competing with KSes that, side-by-side, are simply much better deals.
And I don't know if that's going to change post holiday, what with Rick Priestly's game being on KS shortly followed CMONs by Wrath of Kings and Rivet Wars.
As Wyrd has made pretty clear, they're happy with the funding they have so far. As such, there's no real onus for them to try and strive for better. Their attitude seems to be, "Why be great when mediocre is good enough for the 1200 folks that have already pledged?"
cincydooley wrote: You have to remember a few things about downloading PDFs, eBooks, etc. too: we're still in a niche hobby and they're not always easy to find.
I've certainly downloaded a textbook or eBook or three when I cand find them. When I can't quickly or easily find them, most of the time I'll just buy them. Every dollar made from an eBook sale is money in the bank, as the writer's cost is often a sunk cost taken on at the beginning and has no bearing on the sales of said book beyond a small royalty.
I agree with most of this, but when I ran a Malifaux league a few years ago there were a few players that were using pdf copies of the 1st and 2nd rulebooks.
I think that's a bit different because those aren't even "available" in eBook format. I was speaking more specifically about when 'legal' PDF copies exist and someone then uploads them.
I'm of the thought that any time I buy a physical rulebook, I'd be willing to pay a modest premium for access to the eBook/PDF as well. I wish all companies did this. Sadly very few do.
Alpharius wrote: I can't believe how much this campaign is struggling right now.
Maybe it is just the pre-holiday budget tightening for many?
Most likely the case, the drive has some solid pieces to drive up sales, the stellar amount you get with the multi-pose minis, added stretch goal at 200k, the openness and transparency of Mack Martin via the Breach Side Chats, the quick responses from Jac during the day (though the daily updates could include more).
But it's less than a week till Christmas, people are putting their pennies towards real things for kids and family.
Alpharius wrote: The 3 miniatures from each sprue should help drive the pledge total up, as would opening that up to allow additional purchases of said sprue!
I would agree with the additional purchase comment, but even if this were a Malifaux campaign, the most of any modest pointed model in Malifaux is 3 on the field. The average number is 2, unless you're running something small like a Gremlin gunline, 6 canine remains for the ressers (or necropunks, etc...). So if these were being release for Malifaux, you'd really only need 1 sprue for the game. And with an RPG party, you're going to have 6 at most, so maybe a second sprue. Change the random gender to one of choice instead, might solve that issue.
Though if they had monster sprues, like say 1 gremlin, 1 zombies, 1 neverborn, one "convict gunslingers" I'd buy multiples
or hell, sell me 3 more legs for 10 bucks so I can use all the torsos on my sprue I'd buy them
Alpharius wrote: The 3 miniatures from each sprue should help drive the pledge total up, as would opening that up to allow additional purchases of said sprue!
I would agree with the additional purchase comment, but even if this were a Malifaux campaign, the most of any modest pointed model in Malifaux is 3. The average number is 2, unless you're running something small like a Gremlin gunline, 6 canine remains for the ressers (or necropunks, etc...). So if these were being release for Malifaux, you'd really only need 1 sprue for the game. And with an RPG party, you're going to have 6 at most, so maybe a second sprue. Change the random gender to one of choice instead, might solve that issue.
or hell, sell me 3 more legs for 10 bucks so I can use all the torsos on my sprue I'd buy them
I'd definatly be interested in plastic GRemlins, my So'mer Teeth lists requires alot of them...
Most likely the case, the drive has some solid pieces to drive up sales, the stellar amount you get with the multi-pose minis, added stretch goal at 200k, the openness and transparency of Mack Martin via the Breach Side Chats, the quick responses from Jac during the day (though the daily updates could include more).
My fear is that at a lot of people are looking at this comparatively as opposed to looking at TTB in a vaccuum, and when you do that, these statements no longer look to be true.
Comparatively, it isn't really a stellar amount that you get with the multi-pose minis (although I like them, and quite like Wyrd's plastics aside from some fiddly contact points)
Comparatively, the openness of Mack is directly contrary to (seemingly) the rest of Wyrd and at the very best on par with other KSes.
Comparatively, the single, very vague daily responses are severly lacking compared to other KSes where the developers/designers are firmly entrenched.
This KS has gotten "better" but then again, I'm afraid there are probably a lot of people looking at it alongside Kingdom Death, or Relic Knights, or the Freebooter's Fate IndieGoGo, or hell, even Guild of Cadwallon (which shockingly may break $100k WHAT?!?!). When put side by side....man....it sadly looks like some cat food next to a fat NY strip.
And my comment about Jac's reponses are mostly that I email her, ask a question, and it get's answered within 10 minutes or so... Granted, my last email went in while they hadn't arrived at work yet, so we'll see...
Alfndrate wrote: I feel your pain, I just picked up Ressers, and I need more canines (only have 2 atm)
I've have up to 12 Bayou Gremlins on the board at any one time plus Piglets...
Do you start with 6 and work your way up, or are you running Som'er, at like 10 gremlins? (i can't remember their point cost).
I haven't played him in awhile but when I was running him I acutally started with 2 Warpigs, 2 Hogwhisperers, 2 Giant Gnats and 1 Bayou Gremlin. Then throught the game I would make more and more GRemlins, first turning them into Giant Gnats, then more Gremlins and Piglets if i get the chance.
cincydooley wrote: You have to remember a few things about downloading PDFs, eBooks, etc. too: we're still in a niche hobby and they're not always easy to find.
I've certainly downloaded a textbook or eBook or three when I cand find them. When I can't quickly or easily find them, most of the time I'll just buy them. Every dollar made from an eBook sale is money in the bank, as the writer's cost is often a sunk cost taken on at the beginning and has no bearing on the sales of said book beyond a small royalty.
Writers get a royalty in this industry?!
(RPG industry standard is a flat rate, same with artists and sculptors.)
cincydooley wrote: You have to remember a few things about downloading PDFs, eBooks, etc. too: we're still in a niche hobby and they're not always easy to find.
I've certainly downloaded a textbook or eBook or three when I cand find them. When I can't quickly or easily find them, most of the time I'll just buy them. Every dollar made from an eBook sale is money in the bank, as the writer's cost is often a sunk cost taken on at the beginning and has no bearing on the sales of said book beyond a small royalty.
Writers get a royalty in this industry?!
(RPG industry standard is a flat rate, same with artists and sculptors.)
Or in my case, a whip across the back, and maybe some freshwater
Edit: As per a PM I got, I'm not a writer for Wyrd. I'm just a henchman for them. I am a writer for On the Lamb Games, thus my avatar and the image in my sig.
cincydooley wrote: You have to remember a few things about downloading PDFs, eBooks, etc. too: we're still in a niche hobby and they're not always easy to find.
I've certainly downloaded a textbook or eBook or three when I cand find them. When I can't quickly or easily find them, most of the time I'll just buy them. Every dollar made from an eBook sale is money in the bank, as the writer's cost is often a sunk cost taken on at the beginning and has no bearing on the sales of said book beyond a small royalty.
Writers get a royalty in this industry?!
(RPG industry standard is a flat rate, same with artists and sculptors.)
Sorry, I should have specified. I meant books in general.
Alpharius wrote: I can't believe how much this campaign is struggling right now.
Maybe it is just the pre-holiday budget tightening for many?
Not really, its how its being run. They've stubbornly dug in their heels in regards to adding options, such as a hardback upgrade or mini add ons. The lack of add ons basically limits pledges to $60, $125 or $225. And thats it. Their average pledge per backer is $149, vs Kingdom Death's ever increasing average pledge amount of $257. Every other stretch goal with KD is something to upgrade your initial pledge. The only real way Wyrd can add money at this point is by adding backers. Wyrd's serious fan base who was going to pledge already has at this point. Late backers are attracted to mega value (which Wyrd isnt trying to offer). The early backer only rewards work to discourage last minute fence sitters by lowering the perceived value. They are trying the intimidation stick (back early or else lose out compared to everyone else), rather than the reward carrot with latecomers, and its not working very well.
They've got their money, but don't seem too interested in chasing much more at this point. Part of the reason people pledge is the feeling that they are putting something into production that needs their help, and wouldn't be made otherwise. They said they have enough to do several books afterwards, so the line is secure, so the campaign loses out that feeling of needed patronage as well.
Alpharius wrote: The 3 miniatures from each sprue should help drive the pledge total up, as would opening that up to allow additional purchases of said sprue!
I would agree with the additional purchase comment, but even if this were a Malifaux campaign, the most of any modest pointed model in Malifaux is 3 on the field. The average number is 2, unless you're running something small like a Gremlin gunline, 6 canine remains for the ressers (or necropunks, etc...). So if these were being release for Malifaux, you'd really only need 1 sprue for the game. And with an RPG party, you're going to have 6 at most, so maybe a second sprue.
Well, the party would fight other NPC's, so you need models for those too. I think you're underestimating people's mini addiction. The sprue's look really awesome. Depending on the price point I'm down for 4 more or so post release.
Alright, I'll grant you that Boss, Like I said, give me monster sprues, and I'd be all over that, at least 1 of each. As for NPCs, I've got enough humanoid minis though it shouldn't be too much of an issue (for me at least).
Got an email back from Jac, it's pretty vague I need to go back through the KS updates about penny dreadfuls and the stretch goal and see the wording used.
Edit: My response from Jac said they have never officially stated pdf copies of the books. I just double checked the stretch goals and the update about the Penny Dreadfuls. They both say digital copy... We might see it come out for other versions, or we might see pdf. Though personally I'd prefer kindle since my laptop already has the kindle program and I have my Kindle fire...
Alfndrate wrote: Alright, I'll grant you that Boss, Like I said, give me monster sprues, and I'd be all over that, at least 1 of each. As for NPCs, I've got enough humanoid minis though it shouldn't be too much of an issue (for me at least).
Got an email back from Jac, it's pretty vague I need to go back through the KS updates about penny dreadfuls and the stretch goal and see the wording used.
From what I got out of the different Breach Side chats the game doesn't nessacarily involve mesurement or minatures and is fine being played like D&D 3.5 with a very loose combat and range system. Still though I do really like minatures and I have backed several kickstarters specifically because of the minatures they offered and not the base game.
Alfndrate wrote: Alright, I'll grant you that Boss, Like I said, give me monster sprues, and I'd be all over that, at least 1 of each. As for NPCs, I've got enough humanoid minis though it shouldn't be too much of an issue (for me at least).
Got an email back from Jac, it's pretty vague I need to go back through the KS updates about penny dreadfuls and the stretch goal and see the wording used.
Edit: My response from Jac said they have never officially stated pdf copies of the books. I just double checked the stretch goals and the update about the Penny Dreadfuls. They both say digital copy... We might see it come out for other versions, or we might see pdf. Though personally I'd prefer kindle since my laptop already has the kindle program and I have my Kindle fire...
Ugh, why be cryptic about it.
And honestly, if you're publishing the book, there's no excuse to NOT have it in PDF. InDesign, Quark, or whatever they're using to design it will have a publish to PDF option. It's no harder than saving the file.
And FYI.... If a file is in ePub, Kindle, etc format, there are multiple online programs that will convert for you. It's quite easy
Alfndrate wrote: They're doing it in InDesign. Someone asked a question about magic types, and Mack made a comment about telling us exactly if he had InDesign up.
Yeah...So should be no problem to publish straight to searchable, indexed PDF. Pretty easy to do, honestly. All the other layout stuff is the hard part
Not really related to the kickstarter but... I noticed Battlefoam made an awsome messanger bag for the Iron Kingdoms. I wonder if they are going to make something similar for Through the Breach.
Catyrpelius wrote: Not really related to the kickstarter but... I noticed Battlefoam made an awsome messanger bag for the Iron Kingdoms. I wonder if they are going to make something similar for Through the Breach.
Met a Henchman at GenCon that bought the bag and removed the IK patch lol. Perfect for demos too
Catyrpelius wrote: Not really related to the kickstarter but... I noticed Battlefoam made an awsome messanger bag for the Iron Kingdoms. I wonder if they are going to make something similar for Through the Breach.
Met a Henchman at GenCon that bought the bag and removed the IK patch lol. Perfect for demos too
I could do that... But the stiched PP logo on the back would bother me.
Catyrpelius wrote: Not really related to the kickstarter but... I noticed Battlefoam made an awsome messanger bag for the Iron Kingdoms. I wonder if they are going to make something similar for Through the Breach.
Met a Henchman at GenCon that bought the bag and removed the IK patch lol. Perfect for demos too
I could do that... But the stiched PP logo on the back would bother me.
Alfndrate wrote: They're doing it in InDesign. Someone asked a question about magic types, and Mack made a comment about telling us exactly if he had InDesign up.
Yeah...So should be no problem to publish straight to searchable, indexed PDF. Pretty easy to do, honestly. All the other layout stuff is the hard part
Alfndrate wrote: They're doing it in InDesign. Someone asked a question about magic types, and Mack made a comment about telling us exactly if he had InDesign up.
Yeah...So should be no problem to publish straight to searchable, indexed PDF. Pretty easy to do, honestly. All the other layout stuff is the hard part
Seriously. If I can do it they should be able to.
All high and mighty aren't you Cy
Don't get the whip
In all honesty. We know it's going to be at least a pdf, whether or not is something more remains to be seen.
Cy, do you know if Wargames Vault's pdfs are "secured"?
Well, I'm going off the fact I thought myself InDesign for Brushfire (we did Legendary Realms in Word).
From WargameVault's Backend:
File Security Placing restrictions on your product may deter customers from sharing it, but it also makes the product less useful to those who paid for it.
Add watermark? Select this option if your product file is in PDF format, and you wish for this product to be watermarked. What is watermarking? Click here for a sample of a watermarked file.
Disallow copy/paste? If you check this, customers will not be able to copy and paste text from this ebook. Note that this does not prevent customers from copying the file.
Disallow printing? If you check this, customers will not be able to print pages from this ebook.
We just use the Watermark, as that generally prevents it from showing up on 4Chan.
Alfndrate wrote: Not a major update, so I'm not going to bother quoting it all except for this:
Santana Claus is coming to town!
I have a feeling that Santana is either going to be an added reward, stretch goal, or early backer thank you
What.
Okay, that, combined with the new info on what the model packs actually come with (thanks for the correction before, somehow didn't count the trench coat bodies) is finally tempting me to up my pledge beyond the basic book.
Though, I kinda' feel bad for the people who bought her on ebay... I know I'd be a little frustrated if Wyrd announced that everyone got a free limited edition LCB
Alfndrate wrote: Not a major update, so I'm not going to bother quoting it all except for this:
Santana Claus is coming to town!
I have a feeling that Santana is either going to be an added reward, stretch goal, or early backer thank you
What.
Okay, that, combined with the new info on what the model packs actually come with (thanks for the correction before, somehow didn't count the trench coat bodies) is finally tempting me to up my pledge beyond the basic book.
Though, I kinda' feel bad for the people who bought her on ebay... I know I'd be a little frustrated if Wyrd announced that everyone got a free limited edition LCB
Who knows, but definitely got my attention
My theory is that it'll be added to improve the $225/269 tier, which suffers a little comparison to the middle ones in terms of bang for your buck, imo.
Highly doubt it'll be a mere early backer reward. Adding 1200+ of them to the field would indeed be a massive block, whereas there are only ~320'ish at $225 right now. Of course, that number would jump if they do follow through with such an addition, but these are people doing a pretty hefty share of helping build funds to produce a whole new product, surely that's worthy of a spicy incentive?
As for being limited edition, it really depends on what they do to get more 'out in the wild' as it were, but even if it were to all at 225+, I suspect they'd still be rarer than NE LCB. Also, Santana's dropped down to around $100-150 on ebay last I checked, meaning her value has already dropped to a similar level as it is. Granted, it may climb again once the supply dries up and one only shows up during a blue moon, but that's hard to call over the long run. And finally, given that these won't be going out until August/September next year, I'd say having access to one for up to a year before almost anyone else means they don't lose everything that made them special. Doubly so if they're pretty much never handed out again.
cincydooley wrote: How about the Malifaux skirmish players that have zero interest in an RPG? There are plenty of them in my local meta.
I thought you were saying pages ago that they needed to appeal to the skirmish gamer, is this not what you wanted?
Well we can wait to see how they implement it and at what levels, but no. It's an incredibly lazy way for them to try and drum up additional support, and the henchmen I've talked to tonight are actually pretty pissed off about it, as are the folks that won it in tournaments.
Alf, do you know something we don't know? The subject line of this thread is rather... concrete.
As for the state of this campaign, I wonder if adding the Santana LE will be quite the shot in the arm people expect. It's rather amazing, but consider that this campaign has yet to reach a single stretch goal after the $150,000 goal, and the vast majority of the pledges that went to reaching that goal occurred before the goals were revealed. Over nearly 3 weeks (19 days including today) the campaign has made just shy of $39,000.
It seems very likely that those people most likely to care at all about the Santana LE have already pledged, generally speaking. Notice also that a non-trivial number of people are currently pledged for backer levels that have no miniatures attached to them.
It's almost comical how badly this campaign has been run from a standpoint of recruiting consumers: above and beyond any questions of inadequacy of value, they haven't properly conveyed what was actually in the starting pledges. Seriously, it's not until yesterday that they reveal the "Multi-Pose Mini" is actually a kit, not a single miniature, as apparently everyone expected (notice also the belated realization of this mistake, as that concept art is now the top item on the campaign's home page).
That that was allowed to happen begs the question: why allow people to think the kit was actually capable of making only one mini? It occurs that perhaps they hadn't decided what would be on it yet. Just look back at the discussions earlier in this thread, on their own forums and the comments on the campaign: the consistent attempts at providing value presumed that "mini" was one (1) miniature. Certainly they had some idea that was the presumption, why allow it to fester for 2 weeks?
Again, we get to the psychology of it: they reveal this pertinent information after two early pledge awards have expired. At this point they don't just have to make the pledges better in absolute terms, but have to overcome the impression that by waiting till they were satisfied and pledging now, people got screwed out of things. Seriously, everyone who tried to rationalize "3 minis for $65 jump?" and came down just short of it being worthwhile has now missed out, because Wyrd didn't give them the facts.
As Zwei noted early on in this process: "As far as Kickstarters go, admitting a mistake and fixing it "thanks to the community feedback" is about the best thing you can do to get those positive viral vibes.... Hell, even a Kickstarter that could've been designed flawless from the start should probably add a few "mistakes" for the community to fix, just so you can get the internet-badge of being someone who is "listening to your base". It's worth hard $$$ on Kickstarter."
So it's baffling the attitude they are currently taking of stealth-fixing issues rather then coming out and just saying "hey folks, you were right, we weren't giving you value for money, here's how we're going to make this not only the best game, but an offer you can't refuse!" Instantly, new psychological moment: even if they are just doing what they were doing, people feel vindicated, they feel like, "hey, we won, let's be generous". Although in fairness, they probably should extend both of the previously expired bonus items to be simple stretch goals.
Buzz, the only thing I know that you guys don't know is some preview art.
I know that the KS had slowed to a crawl, I've said it in here before, whether my opinions on the slow are right or not, don't really matter.
I've noticed the pledge levels, I watch this fether like a hawk. I would be lying if I said I didn't want the minis, I love RPGs, but I tend to play with minis, so giving me minis is a benefit to me.
When the multi-pose model was released, I mentioned that it was too bad it wasn't released earlier. I'm sure plenty of people would have started with the Dining Room Gamer if they knew what it looked like from the outset. As for the location of the art on the campaign page, they've been putting the most recent updates at the top, that's not hard to figure out.
The reason why people thought it was a single mini is the wording that Wyrd used. It could be that the multi-pose stuff wasn't finished, I'm not specuating on that. I'm dealing with facts and words, I didn't spend half a decade in college looking at theoreticals.
Dining Room Roleplayer: Get a copy of the Player's Guide, a copy of the Fate Master's Guide, a Male and Female multi-pose mini
Their words don't allude to it being a sprue. And I'm not speculating on what Wyrd may or may not know, my contact is Justin and Jac for my Henchmen stuff, I don't know Eric, Nathan, or anyone else in the office.
I've stated before, that the kickstarter had things that I didn't like, but they weren't enough to warrant me NOT pledging. They've since fixed any issue I've had. Granted I dropped my pledge from 225 to 125 because I don't want the wicked doll, and I'd rather have the minis than a hard cover version of the books, because again... I like to play with minis while I play my RPGs, that comes from years of 3rd and 3.5 edition DnD.
cincydooley wrote: How about the Malifaux skirmish players that have zero interest in an RPG? There are plenty of them in my local meta.
If you back at the $225 level and Santana is added, even with a bit of depreciation, I think you would pretty easily be able to earn back most of the $225 you spent by hocking Hannah, Santana, Miss Terious (assuming you're an early backer), hanging tree, spare deck and the 3 multipart sprues on ebay.
Buzzsaw wrote: It seems very likely that those people most likely to care at all about the Santana LE have already pledged, generally speaking. Notice also that a non-trivial number of people are currently pledged for backer levels that have no miniatures attached to them.
If they add Santana at the $125 levels, it likely won't have that big of an impact, but at the $225 level, you will likely push a solid proportion of the 338 dining room players up to the $225 level. That's a potential extra $33,800 (plus a bit of shipping) from those backers, ignoring that Santana will attract more people to the Kickstarter.
Alfndrate wrote: Buzz, the only thing I know that you guys don't know is some preview art.
Hmmm, I don't mean to be overly cautious, but then the only reason you say "SANTANA ORTEGA COMING SOON!" is the line in the update "because Santana Claus is coming to town"?
Don't get me wrong, I would definitly say offering the LE mini is the best thing they could do... but counting on them to do the best thing isn't such a sure bet.
Alfndrate wrote: I know that the KS had slowed to a crawl, I've said it in here before, whether my opinions on the slow are right or not, don't really matter.
I've noticed the pledge levels, I watch this fether like a hawk. I would be lying if I said I didn't want the minis, I love RPGs, but I tend to play with minis, so giving me minis is a benefit to me.
When the multi-pose model was released, I mentioned that it was too bad it wasn't released earlier. I'm sure plenty of people would have started with the Dining Room Gamer if they knew what it looked like from the outset. As for the location of the art on the campaign page, they've been putting the most recent updates at the top, that's not hard to figure out.
The reason why people thought it was a single mini is the wording that Wyrd used. It could be that the multi-pose stuff wasn't finished, I'm not specuating on that. I'm dealing with facts and words, I didn't spend half a decade in college looking at theoreticals.
Dining Room Roleplayer: Get a copy of the Player's Guide, a copy of the Fate Master's Guide, a Male and Female multi-pose mini
Their words don't allude to it being a sprue. And I'm not speculating on what Wyrd may or may not know, my contact is Justin and Jac for my Henchmen stuff, I don't know Eric, Nathan, or anyone else in the office.
Please forgive me, but I'm honestly not clear what you are saying here vis-a-vis a response to what I said. For example, I think we're in complete agreement, people thought the "Multi-Pose Mini" was a single miniature because all the available wording seemed to imply just that. It was entirely on account of what Wyrd put out... which was my point. I may be reading into what you are saying, as you seem to be agreeing with my points, but adding in things I don't quite understand the purpose of (like the reference to college, that just made me go ).
Alfndrate wrote: I've stated before, that the kickstarter had things that I didn't like, but they weren't enough to warrant me NOT pledging. They've since fixed any issue I've had. Granted I dropped my pledge from 225 to 125 because I don't want the wicked doll, and I'd rather have the minis than a hard cover version of the books, because again... I like to play with minis while I play my RPGs, that comes from years of 3rd and 3.5 edition DnD.
This does nicely tie into a point that underlies what I was saying: it makes no sense to keep making the pledges better for people that already pledged, and can't increase the amount they pledged. That's the really mind boggling thing: because the levels are so fixed and there are no addons, this campaign is almost entirely at the mercy of gaining new backers. Which is the group of people they have done the most to make this unattractive to.
Just remember, anyone that pledges today gets less for their money then the person that pledged the same amount last week, and both of them get less then the people that pledged the first three days. Let's also remember, $143,00 or so of the $182,000 (so just shy of 80%) of the total pledge value came in those first 3 days when the Miss T was available.
cincydooley wrote: I just...I just wish they wouldn't have half assed this KS. By not prep all this stuff first and the wait to launch the KS during the new year?
I just feel like thy launched this thing about 3 weeks too early and it's only just now that they have any real direction to where they're going.
I don't feel as bad about it as you seem to, but I wholly agree that it seems like they've just started to figure out what they're doing. I hope they can salvage this, because, regardless of their mistakes, I'm hoping Wyrd works this out.
cincydooley wrote: How about the Malifaux skirmish players that have zero interest in an RPG? There are plenty of them in my local meta.
If you back at the $225 level and Santana is added, even with a bit of depreciation, I think you would pretty easily be able to earn back most of the $225 you spent by hocking Hannah, Santana, Miss Terious (assuming you're an early backer), hanging tree, spare deck and the 3 multipart sprues on ebay.
Buzzsaw wrote: It seems very likely that those people most likely to care at all about the Santana LE have already pledged, generally speaking. Notice also that a non-trivial number of people are currently pledged for backer levels that have no miniatures attached to them.
If they add Santana at the $125 levels, it likely won't have that big of an impact, but at the $225 level, you will likely push a solid proportion of the 338 dining room players up to the $225 level. That's a potential extra $33,800 (plus a bit of shipping) from those backers, ignoring that Santana will attract more people to the Kickstarter.
It's certainly possible, of course. What percentage of that 340 would throw down an extra $100 for that miniature I cannot say. Although do recall that the previously announced stretch goals all relate to the $125 pledge level and above. It's entirely possible they would also experience backlash from miniature lovers if they were required to upgrade to the highest level (and thus also take a lot of things they may not care for, like the doll) from what is ostensibly the miniature level.
Buzzsaw wrote: Although do recall that the previously announced stretch goals all relate to the $125 pledge level and above.
Note that they did specify that the $60 tier would also get the .pdf, and posted on the forums that they were specifically looking at sweetening the $225 tier with something, so there's already precedent for having stretch goals and bonuses applied as they wished across the tiers.
cincydooley wrote:How about the Malifaux skirmish players that have zero interest in an RPG? There are plenty of them in my local meta.
The other thing is that if its Santana Claus, that may be more of a gift, and not a stretch. Sweeten the pot without it being attached to a stretch goal and they conflict with the statement that $125 gets all the stretch goals.
cincydooley wrote:How about the Malifaux skirmish players that have zero interest in an RPG? There are plenty of them in my local meta.
The other thing is that if its Santana Claus, that may be more of a gift, and not a stretch. Sweeten the pot without it being attached to a stretch goal and they conflict with the statement that $125 gets all the stretch goals.
My guess would be its going to be either this weeks or next weeks early backer reward.
Alfndrate wrote: Buzz, the only thing I know that you guys don't know is some preview art.
Hmmm, I don't mean to be overly cautious, but then the only reason you say "SANTANA ORTEGA COMING SOON!" is the line in the update "because Santana Claus is coming to town"?
Don't get me wrong, I would definitly say offering the LE mini is the best thing they could do... but counting on them to do the best thing isn't such a sure bet.
As a fellow Henchman, although a fairly inactive one, I can confirm that the only inside information that Alf has acess to is some preview art.
I think its a pretty safe bet that Santana Claus is going to be Santana Ortega, it fits with what they have in mind for the model.
The only thing that saddens me about the Santana model is there is so much room on that sprue, they could totally sculpt a "Nina" (with the accent mark over the second n) and have a female version of Nino. I would like an all female Guild Crew (I just need a female judge for my Lady J. Crew and having several female ortegas might prompt me to pick up Perdita.
I just think their 'special models' for this are lazy on all fronts. I know with Santana they said that she may be made available later for something, but I just dont think this is the right something.
IMO, they should have a KS exclusive model. That way, it would at least show they put some additionally effort into making the KS 'special' instead of just rehashing stuff they already have.
cincydooley wrote: I just think their 'special models' for this are lazy on all fronts. I know with Santana they said that she may be made available later for something, but I just dont think this is the right something.
IMO, they should have a KS exclusive model. That way, it would at least show they put some additionally effort into making the KS 'special' instead of just rehashing stuff they already have.
Santana was made as a promotional model much like the Gremlinette, I actually think Santana works great for this purpose.
But the answer is that there will not be a dedicated line of Through the Breach minis (besides the multi-pose models), though if a monster or something is really cool in the 
).