This question has been asked before. I am aware of that. But it was always with armor and weapons. What i want to know is who would win if one spartan and one space marine where locked in a room in normal people clothes. Who would win? and what if it where John (Master Chief) vs. a space marine hero (i.e. draigo, calgar, lysander). Also no psychic powers by space marines.

Who ever had their name on the front cover of said publication.

 Still Standing wrote:
Who ever had their name on the front cover of said publication.

Bingo.

There's all sorts of junk flying around about who is capable of what. Marines bench-pressing Landraiders, Spartans flipping tanks and drop-podding without a pod, so on and so forth.

All it really comes down to is who's playground the story is set in.

Space Marines. They are trained using ancient technologies and arts of martial combat. They are better at close combat than the average human and are freaking huge. Spartans may be strong but Space Marines are much stronger, trained better and enhanced using much more advanced technology.

John vs. Draigo? Unless you want to give it to his incredible luck (a vague concept and shouldn't be included), then Draigo by far.

Having read a couple of the Halo novels it seems that the Spartans are ridiculously enhanced too. I don't think this fictional fight has an easy winner.

Space marine would win. The Sparten is the "Space marine" of Halo but has less combat skill, less survivability then a 40k Space marine. Even with the new Sparten IV, they don't rank much past a space marine scout... thats what I believe atlest.
I'm sure the fan-boy war will began again....

 Still Standing wrote:
Having read a couple of the Halo novels it seems that the Spartans are ridiculously enhanced too. I don't think this fictional fight has an easy winner.

Thats what I always saw. Spartans arent as big as space marines but they could be faster.

 prophet102 wrote:

 Still Standing wrote:
Having read a couple of the Halo novels it seems that the Spartans are ridiculously enhanced too. I don't think this fictional fight has an easy winner.

Thats what I always saw. Spartans arent as big as space marines but they could be faster.

Physically they're pretty close. The Master Chief is 6'10, Jorge is 7', Noble 6 is 6'9". Armour is noted to add 4", and Astartes are noted to be 7' in armour. So it's pretty much a wash there, and as both have muscular and skeletal enhancements that's also going to be too close to give one side a significant edge over the other.

Based off of actual displayed capabilities and not hearsay and crap no one cares about, Spartans are faster, but Space Marines are stronger, and outside of armor they're more durable.

So a Space Marine versus a Spartan in a fist-fight with no armor on would basically be Mohammed Ali versus Bruce Lee in a fight; Spartan dancing around the Astarte in circles doing karate chops and gak, then getting KNTFO in one punch.

 Kaldor wrote:

 prophet102 wrote:

 Still Standing wrote:
Having read a couple of the Halo novels it seems that the Spartans are ridiculously enhanced too. I don't think this fictional fight has an easy winner.

Thats what I always saw. Spartans arent as big as space marines but they could be faster.

Physically they're pretty close. The Master Chief is 6'10, Jorge is 7', Noble 6 is 6'9". Armour is noted to add 4", and Astartes are noted to be 7' in armour. So it's pretty much a wash there, and as both have muscular and skeletal enhancements that's also going to be too close to give one side a significant edge over the other.

Ive seen sources claiming that Astartes can be up to 9' in armor. Isn't Jorge huge as well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what if a knife was thrown to each soldier? who has the better martial prowess?

BlaxicanX wrote:
Based off of actual displayed capabilities and not hearsay and crap no one cares about, Spartans are faster, but Space Marines are stronger, and outside of armor they're more durable.

So a Space Marine versus a Spartan in a fist-fight with no armor on would basically be Mohammed Ali versus Bruce Lee in a fight; Spartan dancing around the Astarte in circles doing karate chops and gak, then getting KNTFO in one punch.

I think it'd be more like Ali and Foreman...

Too varied to give an answer, imo. Space Marines have been killed by everything in close-combat at least once. You range from fodder Marines who get killed by robo-ants in the Horus Heresy, to God-Marines in people like Calgar, who can duel an army for three days. The "average martial skill" of a Marine varies greatly, I've come to find.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Still Standing wrote:
Who ever had their name on the front cover of said publication.

Bingo.

There's all sorts of junk flying around about who is capable of what. Marines bench-pressing Landraiders, Spartans flipping tanks and drop-podding without a pod, so on and so forth.

All it really comes down to is who's playground the story is set in.

/thread

i usually avoid these sorts of topics, but i have to point out a few things. where the spartans may be roughly the same height as an astartes, the astartes most likely have more mass overall. look at the concept art showing the general size of a marine (cant find it), it shows one without armor. going by the halo games, and the art ive seen, a spartan in full armor isnt as quit as thick as an unarmored marine.

the marine would most likely be much stronger than the spartan, and not much slower. they have very quick reaction speed, and running wise are much faster than a human. add a knife in as suggested, and its still roughly the same out come. the spartan will have muscle to cut through than the marine, plus the fused ribcage and denser bones.

granted, i am biased towards marines, as im not really a fan of halo. but i do find the spartans kinda cool, being the marines of their universe. doesnt change that i think a space marine would stomp a spartan in 1v1 combat.

 Still Standing wrote:
Who ever had their name on the front cover of said publication.

this

And not even tongue-in-cheek

Whatever the physical details of either, they are both (usually) the hero (as in the "protagonist", not necessarily as in the "good guy") of their respective story with a tendency to overcome the odds and win against bigger, faster, meaner enemies (even compared to their enhanced physio and skills).

Spartans are faster than marines by feats. John managed to run approx 60 miles per hour, with a torn achilles heel. That's faster running speed than anything we've actually seen from an Astarte.

Reflexes, same thing. Spartans are clocked in at roughly 20 ms reaction times, and see the rest of the world as moving in slow motion- even bullets. Astarte are faster than regular humans by a mile, but by actual feats there isn't much that supports the notion they could touch a spartan.

I think Marines are a lot stronger, as a Spartan can only lift about 2500 pounds (though, in armor, Spartans can crush elites' skulls with a single punch and stop gravity hammer swings with one hand, which is impressive considering a gravity hammer swing can send a warthog sailing through the air), and more durable outside of armor, thus in a brawl he would probably come out on top.

Weaponry: Base weapons, the Bolter crushes the Spartan's Assault Rifle. The Assault Rifle is essentially an Autogun, and it bounces off Astartes armor fluff wise without them noticing.

If we are comparing speed, or reflexes, of the best Spartan (John) vs the Average Marine, yes, the player character of Halo is going to come out ahead. However, if we compare him to Mephiston, the fastest marine in the game, I'm sure Mephiston would outspeed him. I'm sure Dante, or Marneus Calgar wouldn't have much trouble landing a blow on a spartan. (especially considering they die in droves if they aren't 117.)

I'm fairly certain Spartans don't have extra hearts, lungs, redundant nervous systems, the ability to spit acid, survive extended periods without oxygen...

I'm sure an average Space Marine can make an average Spartan his bitch.

Crazyterran wrote:
(especially considering they die in droves if they aren't 117.)

This statement made it so incredibly clear you don't know what you're talking about.

Crazyterran wrote:
(especially considering they die in droves if they aren't 117.)

I lol'ed hard when I say that statement. No idea what he is talking about


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crazyterran wrote:
Weaponry: Base weapons, the Bolter crushes the Spartan's Assault Rifle. The Assault Rifle is essentially an Autogun, and it bounces off Astartes armor fluff wise without them noticing.

If we are comparing speed, or reflexes, of the best Spartan (John) vs the Average Marine, yes, the player character of Halo is going to come out ahead. However, if we compare him to Mephiston, the fastest marine in the game, I'm sure Mephiston would outspeed him. I'm sure Dante, or Marneus Calgar wouldn't have much trouble landing a blow on a spartan. (especially considering they die in droves if they aren't 117.)

I'm fairly certain Spartans don't have extra hearts, lungs, redundant nervous systems, the ability to spit acid, survive extended periods without oxygen...

I'm sure an average Space Marine can make an average Spartan his bitch.

Now to actually respond to his post.

What i want to know is who would win if one spartan and one space marine where locked in a room in normal people clothes

Why on earth are you talking about weapons or armor? Read OP


Why is Mephiston faster? Where is that stated anywhere that he is the fastest? (Note I havnt read the Blood Angels codex so if it actually does say that Just say it)

Finally what does extra hearts/lungs/acid spit/survive in space have anything to do with this? You need to completele your thoughts because I know where there WOULD be advantage in a few of these but you cant just say "he likes green clothes, he is better" but add in why it helps. Thats just me nit picking though.


I do have to say im fairly certain that Mariens cant survive in space without oxygen. They arnt magic, they are still human.





To make it clear, I actually WOULD put my money on a Space Marine simply because he could take a greater beating in the end. I feel the two sides are mostly even but a Space Marine simply has the endurance/toughness to do it.

If a Space Marine is
WS 4 BS 4 I 4 and T 4
and an IG is
WS 3 BS 3 I 3 and T 3
I would say a Spartan is
WS 4 BS 4 I 4 and T 3

hivetyrant765 wrote:i usually avoid these sorts of topics, but i have to point out a few things. where the spartans may be roughly the same height as an astartes, the astartes most likely have more mass overall. look at the concept art showing the general size of a marine (cant find it), it shows one without armor. going by the halo games, and the art ive seen, a spartan in full armor isnt as quit as thick as an unarmored marine.

I only know of Jes Goodwin's lifesize drawing he did for the Inquisitor game, and that shows the Space Marine clocking in at about 7 feet in armour. Jes also mentioned on a GW designer's podcast (where he also mentioned this drawing, and admitted he fethed up the scale as it starts at 2' rather than 1') how "it's not about their height, but the width", and how it should be sufficient that they're just really massive and broad. He then joked about them "getting progressively bigger in every book" in reference to certain Black Library novels where some authors feel this one-upsmanship is required to make their story more epic.

prophet102 wrote:Ive seen sources claiming that Astartes can be up to 9' in armor.

I'm sure that you could even find sources that go up to 11' if you just look hard enough.
At least I remember someone bringing this number up in the thread about Space Marine heights we had several months ago.

Kaldor wrote:

Still Standing wrote:Who ever had their name on the front cover of said publication.

Bingo.
There's all sorts of junk flying around about who is capable of what. Marines bench-pressing Landraiders, Spartans flipping tanks and drop-podding without a pod, so on and so forth.
All it really comes down to is who's playground the story is set in.

That about sums it up.

For better or worse, the already epic heroes are often most prone to further exaggeration in tie-in fiction as there will always be people who think this is "cool".

ehh i'll put my vote to the Space marine. hand to hand.. the space marines strength, endurance, and relfexes are on par or significantly greater then the spartan II. In a timed track run.. i'll give it to the Spartan for being able to run 60 mph vs the marines 40+ ish. With weapons and armor.. not even a fair fight, the halo verse weapons/armor are pretty freaking weak vs the 40k ones.

you have to remember a few things about the halo verse.
humans MBT (the scorpion) has a top speed of ~6mph,
their standard issue assault rifle (MA5D) has no ironsight and has a max range of 300m.

the UNSC needs to pick up 500+ year old copy of Jane's Infantry weapons/Armour and Artillery to rebuild weapons for their pathetic military

I think it's a hard one, because both versions, Marine and Spartan, have been blown way out of proportion in different ways- Marines in the durability and aggression angle, and Spartans in the way that they are basically given superhero-level abilities.

I personally think a Space marine could win over a Spartan, especially if they have all their enhanced organs functioning. Because taken together, they are about the same qualities naked, but a fully-functioning marine can spit acid, eat his enemies to gain their basic memories, go into suspended animation, shut off parts of his brain at a time to purportedly go without sleep for weeks, etc.

But then again, Spartans, especially John, seem to have less and less weaknesses as the story goes on.

Simply comparing their enhancements, the Marine all the way.

Spartens simply don't have all the different bonus organs the Marine has. complete list with descriptions here ---> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gene-seed


The Marine has 2 Hearts and 3 Lungs which gives him a vastly superior circulatory system right off the bat. On top of this he has an increased haemoglobin count due to the Haemastamen organ.

From what I know about Spartens, they don't have anything comperable to this.


Now physique. While a Sparten does have increased muscle mass and strength over a normal human, the size of his body isn't that much bigger than a normal human. A marine has had his body size increased by a significant amount over a Sparten, much less a normal human.

The Sparten's body has crammed as much muscle efficiency and mass onto an above average Human body. A Space Marine has taken the human body, increased its proportions by a huge amount, and then maxed out the muscle mass and efficiency on that improved body. Space Marines are for all intents and purposes a new species. Spartens are still humans.

A Sparten's body doesn't have anything special to heal damage it has taken, IIRC. A marine's blood clots instantly upon contact with air meaning that any wounds that are suffered close instantly and death from blood loss is almost impossable.

Most of what makes a Sparten special is his armor. A marine is special because of his physical augmentation, that is put into the best armor humanity can create.

Spartans and Astartes are about the same size. The Chief is given an approximate weight of 400lbs at 6'10.

Again, it's impossible to compare. The examples of what each are capable of vary wildly. If a Cultist can drop an Astartes, a Spartan would have no problems. If a Grunt can drop a Spartan, an Astartes would walk all over them. If a Spartan can free fall from orbit and walk away from it, nothing a Marine could do to him would injure him. If a Marine clots and heals instantly, there's no way for a Spartan to injure him. Blah blah blah, so on and so forth. The answer really comes down to who is supposed to be the good guy. Because the good guys make it their business to triumph in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds.

I can see the Marine pounding the Spartan flat, but just as easily I can see the Spartan twisting the Marine's head off.

We must consider that the Chief only survived the free fall because of his armor. The particular situation presented is without armor.

And even then, the game designers themselves have said that the "Canon" level of Sparten durability to to play Halo on Hard mode.

If you have ever played Halo on Hard mode you will know your shield doesn't last very long at all.

Also every time a spartan re enters the atmosphere they use what ever debris is around em, Ie john stayed in the forerunner ship for a while before jumping and B312 used a satellite.

Reminds me of that end scene in Dark Star where the guy surfs his way to the planet on what was left of his ship.

 Grey Templar wrote:
We must consider that the Chief only survived the free fall because of his armor. The particular situation presented is without armor.

And even then, the game designers themselves have said that the "Canon" level of Sparten durability to to play Halo on Hard mode.

If you have ever played Halo on Hard mode you will know your shield doesn't last very long at all.

The non-existence of a "Hard Mode" and your inability to properly spell Spartan severely weakens your credibility.

Here's your answer

 TheCaptain wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:
(especially considering they die in droves if they aren't 117.)

This statement made it so incredibly clear you don't know what you're talking about.

Maybe he is referring to Spartan IIIs? They died in much larger number than the IIs. I know this isn't about the IIIs but that could've been the confusion.

RivenSkull wrote:
Here's your answer

so 417?

Saw this and decided to just write a quick story about my take on the subject. Please pardon any grammar mistakes, just a quick write up and grammar isn't my strong suite.

In a large faintly lit room two great warriors stood sizing one another up. Both stripped of all gear. Standing in simple trousers and t-shirts. One a great Space Marine, the other a Spartan II. Both stood at similar heights. The Marine a few inches taller and a considerable amount taller and bulkier. They both had no clue why they were there or how they had gotten there. Though one thing seemed clear, the man opposite each of them was an enemy and to be killed. They began to stalk towards each other. Both wary of the others unknown capabilities. The Marine made his move first, striking towards the Spartan with a simple punch. The Spartan easily saw the attack coming as to him the marine seemed to be moving slightly slow due to his heightened perception. His quick reflexes easily allowed him to attempt to block the blow. Yet the fist hit him with astonishing force forcing the Spartan to step back and allowing the blow to just graze his torso. In response he quickly dashed in under the Marines arm dealing many rapid strike blows to his torso. It felt like hitting a rock however and didn't even seem to affect the Marine much. The Marines arms attempted to trap the Spartan to his torso however he ducked out and to the side dealing two quick jabs to the Marines head. This finally seems to actually elicit a response from the Marine. The Marine swept to the side in anger and finally caught the Spartan, causing him to stumble. In this split second of weakness the Marine spat a glob of acid at the marine catching the Spartan on the leg. He quickly felt the acid began to eat away at his flesh, and realized he needed to end this quickly. He began to weave around the Marine getting many blows around the Marines guard. Though it was difficult due to what seemed like a centuary of fighting experiance. The blows that did get through didn't due much. But they began to accumulate. The Marine got even less through due to the Spartans annoyingly quick moments and reflexes. But what did go through hit the Spartan hard. Yet over time the Spartans defense began to falter as the acid rendered his leg more and more useless. Finally it gave out and the Spartan received a pounding from the Marine. Finally the Spartan sat broken nd bloodied on the ground unable to do any more. And finally the Marine brought all his strength and all his weight into his foot and crushed the spartans head into the ground. Standing triumphant over the still unknown being, the Marine felt respect for the prowess of his enemy.

On a final note I would like to make clear I'm a major fan of both the halo universe and 40k universe so this shouldn't be majorly biased one way or another.

Again this thread?

They are both superhumans, defenders of Mankind and able to do some really OTT things like jumping from the stratosphere and surviving crash into the planet and killing things that are able to cut trough meter thick armor like hot knife through butter.

Like I said earlier in this topic, if you want to see who will win out se their achievements and enemies. Spartans were fighting only Covenant and that was for less under 100 years.
Space Marines are fighting Orks/Tyranids/Necrons/Tau/Eldar/Dark Eldar/Daemons/Their fallen brethren/many other things for the last 10.000 years.

And unlike Spartans, Astartes were actually able in keeping the Imperium safe and much of Mankind intact ( while Spartans almost lose Earth and the rest of Mankind wit hit, just saying... ).

In the end like people said the only advantage Sparatns had over Astartes is speed ( witch is probably true giving that their armor is not heavy like the Astartes one ) but I never looked that as much of an issue for Astartes. It's because they are able to fight and win against the Eldar to whom normal Humans live in slow-motion.
Or are you guys seriously telling me that Spartans are faster then Eldar?

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Again this thread?

They are both superhumans, defenders of Mankind and able to do some really OTT things like jumping from the stratosphere and surviving crash into the planet and killing things that are able to cut trough meter thick armor like hot knife through butter.

Like I said earlier in this topic, if you want to see who will win out se their achievements and enemies. Spartans were fighting only Covenant and that was for less under 100 years.
Space Marines are fighting Orks/Tyranids/Necrons/Tau/Eldar/Dark Eldar/Daemons/Their fallen brethren/many other things for the last 10.000 years.

And unlike Spartans, Astartes were actually able in keeping the Imperium safe and much of Mankind intact ( while Spartans almost lose Earth and the rest of Mankind wit hit, just saying... ).

In the end like people said the only advantage Sparatns had over Astartes is speed ( witch is probably true giving that their armor is not heavy like the Astartes one ) but I never looked that as much of an issue for Astartes. It's because they are able to fight and win against the Eldar to whom normal Humans live in slow-motion.
Or are you guys seriously telling me that Spartans are faster then Eldar?

No but i believe spartans would be stronger than eldar. So their quickness can be supported by heavy punching

BlaxicanX wrote:
Spartans are faster than marines by feats. John managed to run approx 60 miles per hour, with a torn achilles heel. That's faster running speed than anything we've actually seen from an Astarte.

Reflexes, same thing. Spartans are clocked in at roughly 20 ms reaction times, and see the rest of the world as moving in slow motion- even bullets. Astarte are faster than regular humans by a mile, but by actual feats there isn't much that supports the notion they could touch a spartan.

I think Marines are a lot stronger, as a Spartan can only lift about 2500 pounds (though, in armor, Spartans can crush elites' skulls with a single punch and stop gravity hammer swings with one hand, which is impressive considering a gravity hammer swing can send a warthog sailing through the air), and more durable outside of armor, thus in a brawl he would probably come out on top.

And in Know No Fear, Sergeant Aeonid Thiel managed to cut Sorot Tchure's throat in a microsecond of time. Earlier in the book, Captain Honorius Luciel is able to perceive and process the information, even forming a strategy should he be led into combat, in a nanosecond.

In The First Heretic, Argel Tal is able to avoid what can only be described as a weaponise Tesla Coil, in mid-air, using his jump pack. He is also able to jump in front of a salvo of bolter rounds fired by a Custodian and block them all with his swords.

Then of course there is Prospero Burns, where Bjorn is running faster than the airship he rode in on, as he decimates an army that could have conquered a nation (Granted, they were using norse era weaponry so lol). In the story, an augmented human, Kasper Hauser, has enhanced speed, reaction-time, and perceptions. Yet, he could not perceive the movements of the Rune Priest and Wulfen that were fighting eachother. I could bring up Lucius's casual bullet-timing in combat, but Lucius is probably very exceptional for a Marine in quickness.

Marines can't be counted out entirely in the speed department, they have quite a few feats of their own.

In strength, unarmoured there is no contest IMO, the Marine wins, and is more durable regardless. They also have the advantage of the superior biology that allows them to survive gak the Spartan could not dream of. Also acid spit, lol.

A Space Marine (provided it wasn't an IF or derivative) would just spit on a Spartan and walk off. A Spartan is nothing more than a practice dummy for a Space Marine.

Take an imperial guardsman give him to the mechanicum for a day of modifications for some armour and weapons and you get = A Spartan.

Take a human, re-engineer them with an extra lung, a second heart, 12 extra organs, make the Skeleton 3 times bigger, pump him full of 'roids. Stand well back, allow to settle down, then send to Mechanicum for a day for lots of modifications and some armour and weapons and you get = An Astartes.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


And in Know No Fear, Sergeant Aeonid Thiel managed to cut Sorot Tchure's throat in a microsecond of time.

Provide the quote and the page number.

Earlier in the book, Captain Honorius Luciel is able to perceive and process the information, even forming a strategy should he be led into combat, in a nanosecond.

Provide the quote and the page number.

In The First Heretic, Argel Tal is able to avoid what can only be described as a weaponise Tesla Coil, in mid-air, using his jump pack.

Provide the quote and the page number.

He is also able to jump in front of a salvo of bolter rounds fired by a Custodian and block them all with his swords.

Provide the quote and the page number.

All I can say is a black hole opens and sucks all participants of the the 'grand melee' into oblivion. Final result: Unknown till we are also pulled in...

BlaxicanX wrote:
Provide the quote and the page number.

"Sorot Tchure hears the noise his master makes. He is focused on his combat with the Ultramarines raiders, but he cannot help but turn his eyes for a second. Less than a second. A microsecond.
Thiel sees his opening. His practical. It is infinitesimal, a tiny chink in the Word Bearer?s guard. It lasts a microsecond, and it will not be repeated.
He puts his sword through it.
The longsword shears the right side of Tchure?s helm away. Cheek, ear and part of the skull separate with it. Tchure stumbles, bewildered by the pain, the shock, the disorientation"
- Know No Fear, page 392

Provide the quote and the page number.

"The Word Bearer is almost unrecognisable. For a nanosecond, the figure registers to Luciel as an unknown, a threat.
Transhuman responses are already there, unbidden. Adrenaline spikes to heighten an already formidable reaction time. Muscle remembers. Luciel wears his boltgun, an oiled black pit bull of a weapon, in his thigh holster. He can draw, aim and fire in less than a second. The range is six metres, the target unobstructed. There is no chance of
missing. Maximus plate, frontally augmented, might stop a mass-reactive shell, so Luciel will fire two and aim for the visor slits. The airgate skin-sleeve is self-repairing, and will survive las-fire damage, but a bolter shot will shred it open, so Luciel also braces for the explosive decompression of a ricochet or a miss-hit. At a simple, subconscious neural urge, boot-sole electromagnets charge to clamp onto the deck plates.
Luciel thinks theoretical, but of course there is no theoretical. There is no tactical precedent for a Space Marine to fight a Space Marine. The idea is nonsense. He thinks practical, and that directs him to the visor slits. He can make a clean kill headshot in less than a second and a half, two rounds for kill insurance, and probably protect the atmospheric integrity of the airgate.
All this, all this decided, unbidden, instinctive, in less than a nanosecond."
- Know No Fear, page 20-21

Provide the quote and the page number.

I can't provide the page number due to being a filthy criminal, but:

"Argel Tal took two running steps; the first sent tremors through
the balcony, the second shattered the railing as he kicked off
from it, leaping into the air. His thrusters roared, breathing
smoke and fire as he fell from sky. The twin blades trailed blurs
of lightning.
‘Aurelian!’ the warriors of Torgal Squad cried out, leaping from
their eyries to slice through the air, following their captain down
on whining engines. ‘Aurelian!’
Argel Tal led the dive, hurling himself to the side as burning
electricity arced up from the artificial below. A second later he
was on the creature, twisting around it to bring his boot crashing
against its glass head. Chips of diamond sprayed away as its
skull snapped back. Both power swords fell a heartbeat later, the
blades hammering into the artificial’s face. More twinkling
shards scattered like hailstones."
- The First Heretic, chapter 7

Provide the quote and the page number.

"VENDATHA WAS NOT a fool. He knew the odds of surviving the
next few moments were slim, and he knew a primarch’s reflexes
were the peak of biological possibility, faster than even his own,
which bordered on the preternatural.
But Lorgar was at ease, his muscles loose. He actually expected
his offer of truce to hold some weight, and that lapse in judgement
was enough for Vendatha to take the chance. He pulled the
haft-trigger, and his spear’s underslung bolter cracked off a
stream of rounds on full-auto.
Argel Tal saw it coming. The swords of red iron smashed the
first three bolts aside, their power fields strong enough to detonate
the shells as they streaked towards the primarch’s heart. The
explosions threw the captain to the ground, his grey armour
scraping along the stone with the shriek of offended ceramite."

The First Heretic, Chapter 15

Gotta love Black Library novels.

The whole debate is looking more and more like a contest of "who has the most ridiculous fluff in tie-in fiction"

 prophet102 wrote:
This question has been asked before. I am aware of that. But it was always with armor and weapons. What i want to know is who would win if one spartan and one space marine where locked in a room in normal people clothes. Who would win? and what if it where John (Master Chief) vs. a space marine hero (i.e. draigo, calgar, lysander). Also no psychic powers by space marines.

Honestly, the fight would probably be to a stand still. Out of armour both are 7' tall killing machines with bone made of some metal-ceramic composite. Spartans have been shown to be able to drop-kick full exo-suits (larger than their powered armour) across rooms before they have even reached adulthood. Marines can probably perform similar feats outside of armour. Both are wired to be fast, strong and tough. If you ran the scenario 100 times if would be close to a 50/50 split.

117 vs. another character, mostly down to narrative conceits, though John has the advantage of having plot armour that is canon in his own universe (his most valuable trait was his ineffable luck which he possessed even before augmentation).

But in the end, without armour, they are basically the exact same thing with slightly differing augmentations. The author would have more baring on the outcome then any list of capabilities.

But because it's fun (and no one ever posts what the Spartan-II augments actually are) I think a comparison of of abilities is in order:

Spartan-II Augmentation:

Carbide Ceramic Ossification (Space Marine Equivalent: Ossmodula) - Surgery is performed on the arms and legs of the subject's body to expose the bone. An advanced carbide ceramic material is grafted onto the skeletal structure to begin skeletal ossification. This process works by breaking down bone and rebuilding it stronger then before. This results in the bones being virtually unbreakable. The coverage of this procedure does not exceed 3% total bone mass due to significant white blood cell necrosis; to make up for that a growth hormone is administered to help strengthen the bones throughout the rest of the body.

Personal Notes: This is the big one in terms of toughness for both Spartans and Marines. Breaking a bone is a great way to get taken out of battle. Not being able to hold your gun, or put weight on your leg makes you as useless as a dead man. In both cases the bones are fused/augmented via some kind of hardened bio-ceramic. Pretty much identical (the only major difference is the fusing of the rib cage, but considering that that reduces flexibility in the torso I don't think the Marines gain much out of it).

Muscular Enhancement Injections (Space Marine Equivalent: Biscopea) - In addition to the growth hormone catalyst, a protein complex is injected intramuscularly that targets the muscles' intracellular molecular machinery to help increase muscle strength and endurance. These injections target the muscles' molecules increasing the density of the connective tissues and fibers, the more visible result being the muscles quivering and contorting over one another, making connecting tendons stronger and decreasing lactase recovery time.

Personal Notes: This is basically completely identical, though the same augment also gives Spartans enhanced stamina (they recover from acidosis quicker after things like long sprints). Not much else to add. They are both strong like bull/

Catalytic Thyroid Implant (Space Marine Equivalent: Biscopea & Ossmodula... again) - A platinum pellet is implanted in the left thyroid gland; this pellet contains a human growth hormone that is released into the body to boost growth of skeletal and muscle tissues. As the hormone is released into the body the pellet dissolves and is absorbed. The hormone targets and stimulates the growth of fast and slow twitch muscle fibers, effectively producing significant gains in muscle mass. The hormone also targets osteoblasts to help boost bone tissue formation and effectively strengthen the bone structure.

Personal Notes: Here we see Spartans getting a double dip of strength (and speed since it also increases fast twitch muscle growth) and toughness (more bone density). Whether this makes them stronger than a Marine is hard to say. But considering the running speeds they are able to get up to it certainly makes them sound really bloody strong. The alternative is that they need three augmentations to do what Space Marines get in two. Who knows?

Occipital Capillary Reversal (Space Marine Equivalent: Occulobe) - Surgery is performed on the occipital lobe of the left cerebral hemisphere of the brain; the occipital lobe is the visual processing center of the brain, containing most of the anatomical region of the visual cortex. The surgeon performs a procedure on the capillaries, the smallest of the body's blood vessels, to reverse the direction of blood flow in each capillary to boost the blood flow beneath the rods and cones of the subject's retina. The rods and cones of the eye are light-sensitive receptors located in the back of the eye. Together they are able to detect movement, light and color, and relay that information back to the brain. This procedure produces a marked visual perception increase.

Personal Notes: Both of them can see incredibly well and it seems the Spartan augment allows them to not only see well in the dark but also track movement incredible well. Of course the rest of the Marine's "sensor suite" isn't augmented, so marines have better hearing and smell (and taste oddly).

Superconducting Fibrification of Neural Dendrites (Space Marine Equivalent: None) - Alteration of bioeletrical nerve transduction to shielded electronic transduction. 300% increase in subject reflexes. Anecdotal evidence of marked increase in intelligence, memory, and creativity.

Personal Notes: This is where things get funkier. Marines get most of their enhanced reaction time from purely physical enhancements (muscle growth, like the Spartan). But none of their augmentations are specifically keyed to speeding up their reflexes. What's more this augment has a knock-on effect with the rest of the brain and makes the Spartan smarter and more creative than an average human (though some of that may be a side-effect of choosing some of the most gifted humans in existence). Either way, this is a fairly unique part of Spartan augmentation not shared by marines.

Spartan Neural Interface (Space Marine Equivalent: Black Carapace... kind of) - In addition to the standard functions of a neural interface, the SPARTAN neural interface is unique in that it is designed to allow an AI construct to directly interface with the SPARTAN's brain. Therefore, the AI is reside both inside the armor and inside the wearer's mind. Essentially, it is in both places at once. The interface allows the AI access to most of the suit's internal systems, though the SPARTAN has override control. The AI is capable of significantly improving the data transfer rate between the motor cortex of the SPARTAN and the MJOLNIR's processing unit, further improving the SPARTAN's already lightning-quick reaction time.

[i]Personal Notes - Another somewhat unique one. Both the Neural Interface and the Black Carapace allow direct interfacing with suits of powered armour. But the Neural Interface is more advanced than that. But luckily for this discussion it mostly pertains to being in-armour for the Spartan. Inside the suit of armour, the already 300% boost in reaction is further augmented by real-time input editing by an interfaced AI. But also fairly important is that this implant allows a Spartan to always have a piggy-backing AI, even outside of their armour. A useful augmentation to say the least. The Spartan has much more sophisticated brain-ware than the Marine to say the least. Though in the Marine's favour the Black Carapace is a bit of extra armour (though it is only a hardened plastic).

Useful Combat Augmentations Spartans Lack
- Secondary Heart (Not big in to bio-mechanics, but this has to help at least a little)
- Haemastamen (Another circilatory-system enhancer that probably puts Marines ahead in terms of efficient use of oxygen)
- Larraman's Organ (This speeds healing by enhancing the rate of scar formation, may not keep you in a fight, but gets you back to it quicker)
- Catalepsean Node (Two weeks of constant uptime before needing sleep, not helpful in the OP's scenario but useful in some combat situations)
- Multi-lung (Another circulation enhancer and a closed breathing environment to boot!)
- Lyman's Ear (Better hearing and good balance)
- Betcher's Gland (Spit acid, in normal combat... not useful, but in the OP's setup, very useful!)

Useful Non-Combat Augmentations Spartan's Lack
[i]Note: None of these would really help them in the given scenario and are mostly side benefits that don't make them strictly better combatants
- Preomnor (Marines can basically digest anything).
- Omophagea (The whole brain-eating-memory thing. A nifty scouting trick if marines tended to act more covertly, not terribly useful in general combat).
- Sus-an Membrane (Another survival measure, useful if in critical condition and within reach of allies).
- Melanchromic Organ (Marines don't sun-burn easy).
- Oolitic Kidney (Poison immunity is neat, but it comes at the price of becoming comatose while fighting strong poisons, which can be less than optimal)
- Neuroglottis (Best sense of taste in the galaxy).
- Mucranoid (Useful for fighting in extreme conditions, but not something they can flip on or off with a thought; needs external activation).
- Progenoids (Possibly counts as a downside, the UNSC know how to make new Spartans, but new Marines depend on the recovery of old ones)

In terms of training and conditioning we see very similar set-ups. Spartans do start training quite early though (age six). Even children on Death Worlds are still likely having (twisted) childhoods at that point. Marines tend to start training closer to 9-12 years of age. But in the end both are indoctrinated and subjected to the most punishing military training possible.

But on the whole Spartans have augmentations that mimic the most important Marine augments (strength, speed, tougness, armour interface) and one (one and a half really) that is not copied on Marines at all (massive reaction time boost with a knock on intelligence and creativity increase; plus a side of AI Agent interfacing). Marines have seven additional augments not copied by Spartans. Of these most have to do with giving them a more efficient circulatory system but not directly enhancing their combat capabilities. The rest are mostly things that have minor effects on combat performance but are helpful in a more general sense (the acid spit is the most useful in this exercise). Finally Marines have a further eight augments that are useful in a general sense but have little direct combat application (and thus don't help marines in the OP's scenario).

To Conclude - Marines and Spartans are pretty close to being as tough and as strong as one another (and side-effects of either's augmentations give them an endurance boost). Whether you interpret the stacking of Spartan strength/speed/toughness augmentations as making them better than marines is up to you. I figure it is close enough to be academic without hard numbers. Spartans have eyesight enhancements that are equal and possibly better (due to specific mentions of movment tracking) than a Marine. It is indisputable that Spartans have an actual canon enhancement for their reaction time and that Marines do not (sorry Black Library). So we can surmise that Spartans are a fair shake quicker on the uptake than a marine. Marines edge Spartans out a bit in terms of recovery time (a lot of augments dedicated to keeping a marine alive, even when taken out of action).

The acid spit is a good trick, but one has to weigh that against the upside of having massively increased reaction times (we'll ignore a piggy-backing AI for the OP's scenario) that could possible see and dodge a spit attack before it ever became an issue. So considering all this, I stand by my assertion that in a Spartan vs. Marine duel without armour or weapons, you have about as close to a 50/50 split as you will get. In the end the author will have more of an effect given that outside of the armour they are almost identical in terms of general capability.

Per official lore though, Spartans generally top out at being about class 1, aka, able to lift about a ton above their heads. Marines are generally portrayed as stronger, while studio fluff doesn't typically delve into individual Marine feats of strength (And when they do, it's typically insane nonsense like Draigo holding down a Primarch, or tearing a Daemon Prince limb from limb.

 Lynata wrote:


Gotta love Black Library novels.

The whole debate is looking more and more like a contest of "who has the most ridiculous fluff in tie-in fiction"

Indeed, one can't help but love BL novels that are far and away superior to the majority of GW's own work.

Edit:

[6:06:12 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: wat
[6:07:05 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: hahaha
[6:07:08 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: You actually did it
[6:07:10 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: what a nerd
[6:07:35 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: time to disqualify it all with weasely lawyer-esque technicalities and outrageous claims

This is where Blax will try to discredit me with trolling, as you see above.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
Provide the quote and the page number.

"Sorot Tchure hears the noise his master makes. He is focused on his combat with the Ultramarines raiders, but he cannot help but turn his eyes for a second. Less than a second. A microsecond.
Thiel sees his opening. His practical. It is infinitesimal, a tiny chink in the Word Bearer?s guard. It lasts a microsecond, and it will not be repeated.
He puts his sword through it.
The longsword shears the right side of Tchure?s helm away. Cheek, ear and part of the skull separate with it. Tchure stumbles, bewildered by the pain, the shock, the disorientation"
- Know No Fear, page 392

Provide the quote and the page number.

"The Word Bearer is almost unrecognisable. For a nanosecond, the figure registers to Luciel as an unknown, a threat.
Transhuman responses are already there, unbidden. Adrenaline spikes to heighten an already formidable reaction time. Muscle remembers. Luciel wears his boltgun, an oiled black pit bull of a weapon, in his thigh holster. He can draw, aim and fire in less than a second. The range is six metres, the target unobstructed. There is no chance of
missing. Maximus plate, frontally augmented, might stop a mass-reactive shell, so Luciel will fire two and aim for the visor slits. The airgate skin-sleeve is self-repairing, and will survive las-fire damage, but a bolter shot will shred it open, so Luciel also braces for the explosive decompression of a ricochet or a miss-hit. At a simple, subconscious neural urge, boot-sole electromagnets charge to clamp onto the deck plates.
Luciel thinks theoretical, but of course there is no theoretical. There is no tactical precedent for a Space Marine to fight a Space Marine. The idea is nonsense. He thinks practical, and that directs him to the visor slits. He can make a clean kill headshot in less than a second and a half, two rounds for kill insurance, and probably protect the atmospheric integrity of the airgate.
All this, all this decided, unbidden, instinctive, in less than a nanosecond."
- Know No Fear, page 20-21

Provide the quote and the page number.

I can't provide the page number due to being a filthy criminal, but:

"Argel Tal took two running steps; the first sent tremors through
the balcony, the second shattered the railing as he kicked off
from it, leaping into the air. His thrusters roared, breathing
smoke and fire as he fell from sky. The twin blades trailed blurs
of lightning.
‘Aurelian!’ the warriors of Torgal Squad cried out, leaping from
their eyries to slice through the air, following their captain down
on whining engines. ‘Aurelian!’
Argel Tal led the dive, hurling himself to the side as burning
electricity arced up from the artificial below. A second later he
was on the creature, twisting around it to bring his boot crashing
against its glass head. Chips of diamond sprayed away as its
skull snapped back. Both power swords fell a heartbeat later, the
blades hammering into the artificial’s face. More twinkling
shards scattered like hailstones."
- The First Heretic, chapter 7

Provide the quote and the page number.

"VENDATHA WAS NOT a fool. He knew the odds of surviving the
next few moments were slim, and he knew a primarch’s reflexes
were the peak of biological possibility, faster than even his own,
which bordered on the preternatural.
But Lorgar was at ease, his muscles loose. He actually expected
his offer of truce to hold some weight, and that lapse in judgement
was enough for Vendatha to take the chance. He pulled the
haft-trigger, and his spear’s underslung bolter cracked off a
stream of rounds on full-auto.
Argel Tal saw it coming. The swords of red iron smashed the
first three bolts aside, their power fields strong enough to detonate
the shells as they streaked towards the primarch’s heart. The
explosions threw the captain to the ground, his grey armour
scraping along the stone with the shriek of offended ceramite."

The First Heretic, Chapter 15

You're taking hyperbole and figures of speech and trying to use them as literal benchmarks. That's not gonna fly. Obviously "nanosecond" is a figure of speech, and "burning lightning" is a colorful descriptor.

Void__Dragon wrote:Indeed, one can't help but love BL novels that are far and away superior to the majority of GW's own work.

Honestly, those quotes make 40k sound as if it was some sort of Dragonball Z in Space. I'm sure it's just a matter of preferences, but I cannot "get" how this kind of storytelling can have that many fans. To me, such reality-bending narration would be a huge minus.
Fortunately, I know that not all Marine stories are that bad, but it sure is a good way to deter me from ever spending money on more, just for the risk of reading more like that stuff.

At least GW has a higher ratio of (short) stories that are epic / cool to read whilst still fitting in with the rest of the world rather than making you feel you're watching an episode of the Hercules TV series.
Take Captain Tycho's last fight on Armageddon, for example. That was a good read.

[quote=Void__Dragon 497426 5128925 123938340dfbb08f592db5a87f203ac7.jpg
Edit:[6:06:12 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: wat
[6:07:05 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: hahaha
[6:07:08 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: You actually did it
[6:07:10 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: what a nerd
[6:07:35 PM] GUILLIMAN'S GENESEED: time to disqualify it all with weasely lawyer-esque technicalities and outrageous claims

This is where Blax will try to discredit me with trolling, as you see above.

 Lynata wrote:

The whole debate is looking more and more like a contest of "who has the most ridiculous fluff in tie-in fiction"

In that case why the debate? We all know that 40k wins in "I have the most ridiculous OTT fluff in sci-fi history" contest.

 Lynata wrote:
Honestly, those quotes make 40k sound as if it was some sort of Dragonball Z in Space.

What a ridiculous comparison. 40k is vastly more powerful than DBZ could hope to be (Though I hear some incredibly gakky movie featuring a bubblegum rabbit is coming out that may change that).

I'm sure it's just a matter of preferences, but I cannot "get" how this kind of storytelling can have that many fans. To me, such reality-bending narration would be a huge minus.
Fortunately, I know that not all Marine stories are that bad, but it sure is a good way to deter me from ever spending money on more, just for the risk of reading more like that stuff.

It's a shame that something as trivial as power level deters you so. While obviously not Faulkner or Hemingway, as far as space operas (Much less licensed space operas, for a gander at how bad it really can get, try reading Star Wars EU) go, they're pretty good reads. Sometimes. There are of course bad BL books, like Gav Thorpe and his emomarines, but that has more to do with aforementioned whiny teenage crap than power level.

And really, the basis for these guys? Greek demigods, maybe some epic heroes in Lord of the Rings, that kind of gak, etc. Hercules could lift the sky, Gandalf leveled the side of a mountain when he struck down the Balrog. These incredible feats of might are par the course for these types of stories.

At least GW has a higher ratio of (short) stories that are epic / cool to read whilst still fitting in with the rest of the world rather than making you feel you're watching an episode of the Hercules TV series.
Take Captain Tycho's last fight on Armageddon, for example. That was a good read.

I can't recall, not being much of a Blood Angel fan myself. Which iteration/codex was this in?

As far as codex fluff goes, I liked Belial's battle with the Weirdboy on Piscina V (I think?), a lot of the Ork battles in Codex: Orks, and some of the old Index Astartes articles, like Leman Russ vs. Magnus (Even if McNeill's in-depth iteration in A Thousand Sons is superior).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
In that case why the debate? We all know that 40k wins in "I have the most ridiculous OTT fluff in sci-fi history" contest.

Not even.

A single Eternal from Doctor Who could imprison the entire galaxy into the Void and destroy Chaos with a thought.

The Downstreamers from the Manifold series can create machines that can survive a thousand Big Bangs and Crunches each second with no scratch, and in fact survived the recreation of the multiverse, and changed it from a finite, set amount of universes, to a limitless amount.

And many more. As far as SF settings constrained to a single galaxy go, 40k is pretty tough, sure, but it isn't anywhere near top dog in the grand scheme of things.

 Lynata wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Indeed, one can't help but love BL novels that are far and away superior to the majority of GW's own work.

Honestly, those quotes make 40k sound as if it was some sort of Dragonball Z in Space. I'm sure it's just a matter of preferences, but I cannot "get" how this kind of storytelling can have that many fans. To me, such reality-bending narration would be a huge minus.
Fortunately, I know that not all Marine stories are that bad, but it sure is a good way to deter me from ever spending money on more, just for the risk of reading more like that stuff.

At least GW has a higher ratio of (short) stories that are epic / cool to read whilst still fitting in with the rest of the world rather than making you feel you're watching an episode of the Hercules TV series.
Take Captain Tycho's last fight on Armageddon, for example. That was a good read.

+1. It's just meaningless bolter-porn, filler for when authors struggle to come up with compelling plots and interesting characters.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:In that case why the debate? We all know that 40k wins in "I have the most ridiculous OTT fluff in sci-fi history" contest.

Does it? I don't know the Halo novels...
But I definitively see the possibility, especially since (by now) 40k is also a much bigger franchise, with much more people publishing lots more personal interpretations.

When it comes down to it, both IPs have almost the same potential in this area, though. Looking at Space Marines and Halo's Master Chief, they essentially apply to the same audience, using the same cliché of male military action heroes being better than anyone else and pulling off the most incredible stunts.
40k's Marines may also have a subset of fans who like them based on an individual Chapter's backstory or style, or even the thinly veiled Grimdark behind the super(hu)man facade, but I'd actually suspect these to be a minority, at least based on the posts on various forums, or the popularity of "bolterporn" novels.

Void__Dragon wrote:What a ridiculous comparison. 40k is vastly more powerful than DBZ could hope to be (Though I hear some incredibly gakky movie featuring a bubblegum rabbit is coming out that may change that).

Define "powerful" ... are we talking about compelling narratives and the setting, or the abilities of various characters?

In case of the former, I'd agree, but in case of the latter, both franchises seem to sport some fairly over the top stuff. And for 40k, it kind of "taints" the seriousness of the background, though this is ofc just my impression. In other words, it's not something I as a fan would be "proud of". Matter of taste/preferences though.

Void__Dragon wrote:for a gander at how bad it really can get, try reading Star Wars EU

I don't see much of a difference between Star Wars' Expanded Universe and the Black Library - other than one of them actually having consistency. Both IPs have good and bad books. I'm certainly not saying that I've never read a good BL book, either! Just that a large number of them seems to be ... well ... a tad too "superhero'ish" to me. I much prefer gritty and realistic rather than some godlike being pulling off incredible stunts to save the world on his own. (there are of course exceptions to this - it all depends on the focus of the setting as a whole)

For what it's worth, most of the SW EU books I read were about very minor characters such as soldiers and military officers or criminals trying to get by. I've purposefully avoided stuff about the major characters because I know that many authors are compelled to have them do "hero stuff".
To me, stuff like that always comes across a little like a cheap way to raise interest in the story. A book should not stand or fall chiefly on the abilities of the main character, but on plot and interaction. Likewise, a character's weaknesses are far more interesting and potential-holding features than his strengths. Hence, stories with less important characters (who the author would have a harder time justifying special abilities) consistently came across as requiring more thought and delicacy, if you get my drift. Needless to say, a bad author can still mess this up, just like good authors can work with powerful characters without turning them into Mary-Sues. It's just that there are so few good authors, I guess.

Void__Dragon wrote:I can't recall, not being much of a Blood Angel fan myself. Which iteration/codex was this in?

No Codex, it was ... lemme check ... White Dwarf #251, page 86. Just a single page, but one of the best 40k stories I've ever read. A fitting end for a hero - going out with a boom. There, his heroics were sort of "balanced" by the character still dying at the end. I don't mind people pulling off stunts as long as they still come across as vulnerable, y'know? Following the exploits of some sort of invul fighter just doesn't seem all that compelling to me. The harder someone fights, the more they should pay for it. Makes it all more realistic - and thus more intrigueing, as you as the reader will be less likely to be able to guess what happens next. Will the character succeed? Will he fail? If he fails, will he die or survive to try again another day...? Game of Thrones-style.

http://www.myspace.com/aldo_miles/blog/419280458
Here's an online copy of the text. I dunno if it's already what you would call "emo" - to me it's at best "tragic". And tragic is fine. Was an integral part to a lot of the ancient myths you mentioned, too. To me, it has a firm place in 40k due to being a central pillar of what makes "Grimdark".

Void__Dragon wrote:A single Eternal from Doctor Who could imprison the entire galaxy into the Void and destroy Chaos with a thought.
The Downstreamers from the Manifold series can create machines that can survive a thousand Big Bangs and Crunches each second with no scratch, and in fact survived the recreation of the multiverse, and changed it from a finite, set amount of universes, to a limitless amount.

*shiver*

 Kaldor wrote:
+1. It's just meaningless bolter-porn, filler for when authors struggle to come up with compelling plots and interesting characters.

The irony here being that Aaron Dembski-Bowden, your favorite BL author, is the one who wrote The First Heretic, lol.

Not to even mentioning the other very ironic elephant in the room that I won't mention because I want to play nice.

 Grey Templar wrote:

And even then, the game designers themselves have said that the "Canon" level of Sparten durability to to play Halo on Hard mode.

.

Im fairly sure this is not true. First it doesnt make any sense in terms of naming. (You mean to tell me that in canon, the story of the Halos occured on the difficulty called "Hard" and not on the difficulty called Normal? You realize this sounds rediculous)

Second, it fails to match up with any source of canon on the Halos. Try getting through the Halos on hard without ever taking armor damage, its near impossible because the enemy does so much damage per shot (on legendary 3 shots from a Plasma Rifle caused armor damage) yet the Master Chief in the books RARELY even completely loses his shield. In the books he can take 3 hits from a Fuel Rod and still be standing.

No Im fairly certain the game designers intended for the game to be played on hard for maximum enjoyment that you get knowing that any of these challenges will easily be able to kill you and you will die quite a few times and burn through ammo like mad. The story would take place on Normal however.




However your point stil stands. The shield goes down VERY quickly. 3-4 shots would probably drop a Spartan

 Lynata wrote:
Define "powerful" ... are we talking about compelling narratives and the setting, or the abilities of various characters?

I am pretty sure you should know which I meant. And, despite my nostalgia for the series, both, mostly (The manga is better than the anime).

the seriousness of the background

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/2/22/20781_md-Chaos%20Space%20Marines,%20Emperor's%20Children,%20Noise%20Marines.jpg

I know, a bit out of date, but I had to.

I don't see much of a difference between Star Wars' Expanded Universe and the Black Library -

I'm guessing you haven't read much of either?

other than one of them actually having consistency.

I hope you are not trying to imply SW EU is consistent, lol.

Both IPs have good and bad books. I'm certainly not saying that I've never read a good BL book, either! Just that a large number of them seems to be ... well ... a tad too "superhero'ish" to me. I much prefer gritty and realistic rather than some godlike being pulling off incredible stunts to save the world on his own. (there are of course exceptions to this - it all depends on the focus of the setting as a whole)

Which none of my examples had, and frankly, 40k as a setting may be gritty, but it isn't even close to realistic. I mean, look at Harker. He strangles a Tyranid Ravener with his bare hands, a feat on par with the strength of a Marine. He's a normal human.

40k is founded on incredible feats of might and heroism.

For what it's worth, most of the SW EU books I read were about very minor characters such as soldiers and military officers or criminals trying to get by. I've purposefully avoided stuff about the major characters because I know that many authors are compelled to have them do "hero stuff".

Lucky you then. The sheer staggering amount of bs forked out by the EU is... Staggering.

To me, stuff like that always comes across a little like a cheap way to raise interest in the story. A book should not stand or fall chiefly on the abilities of the main character, but on plot and interaction. Likewise, a character's weaknesses are far more interesting and potential-holding features than his strengths. Hence, stories with less important characters (who the author would have a harder time justifying special abilities) consistently came across as requiring more thought and delicacy, if you get my drift. Needless to say, a bad author can still mess this up, just like good authors can work with powerful characters without turning them into Mary-Sues. It's just that there are so few good authors, I guess.

Or it is just a followup to the larger than life feats and heroics that are present in the mythologies the setting has some basis in, lol. And honestly, 40k's feats of might are outright subtle compared to the source material at times.

A character can be personally powerful while still possessing flaws that render them fallible. Magnus the Red is an example, very intelligent and with the power to raze the surface of a planet, knows almost all there is to know of sorcery. But, to borrow Manchu's phrasing, what he didn't know outweighed what he did, and his own arrogance doomed him and his legion.

To demonstrate an example I posted... Argel Tal, despite his prowess, and despite knowing that betraying the Imperium is wrong, and the ugly truth of Chaos, hell, despite growing to resent and loathe Lorgar, his Primarch, is ultimately unable to turn his back on Lorgar, despite not wanting to go through with Lorgar's designs. That is a weakness, he is loyal to a self-destructive extent.

No Codex, it was ... lemme check ... White Dwarf #251, page 86. Just a single page, but one of the best 40k stories I've ever read. A fitting end for a hero - going out with a boom. There, his heroics were sort of "balanced" by the character still dying at the end. I don't mind people pulling off stunts as long as they still come across as vulnerable, y'know? Following the exploits of some sort of invul fighter just doesn't seem all that compelling to me. The harder someone fights, the more they should pay for it. Makes it all more realistic - and thus more intrigueing, as you as the reader will be less likely to be able to guess what happens next. Will the character succeed? Will he fail? If he fails, will he die or survive to try again another day...? Game of Thrones-style.

http://www.myspace.com/aldo_miles/blog/419280458
Here's an online copy of the text. I dunno if it's already what you would call "emo" - to me it's at best "tragic". And tragic is fine. Was an integral part to a lot of the ancient myths you mentioned, too. To me, it has a firm place in 40k due to being a central pillar of what makes "Grimdark".

It is worth mentioning that Honorius, the Ultramarine I mentioned, was ultimately killed by his friend, Sorot Tchure, when he was so dumbstruck by his betrayal that he couldn't react in time to stop Sorot from blowing a hole in his chest with a plasma pistol. That said, Know No Fear did have an annoying problem concerning plot armour, where most Word Bearers besides Sorot Tchure and Kor Phaeron (He beat Roboute Guilliman in a fight) are given the guardsmen treatment: Only really threatening to Ultramarines when outnumbering them.

That was a pretty good read, and no, "emo", which I spoke of, was when Corvus Corax looked up at the sky, and cried a single tear, BECAUSE HE FELT OH SO ALONE IN THE UNIVERSE OH SO SAD WAAAAH!!!

Tragedy is good. The fall of Magnus the Red? Tragic (Horus's also should have been but eh).

Void__Dragon wrote:*shiver*

In the case of the Eternals, to be fair, they are basically the Cthulhus/Chaos Gods of Doctor Who. As for the Downstreamers, I mostly just have second-hand knowledge of them so can't say.

 Galdos wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

And even then, the game designers themselves have said that the "Canon" level of Sparten durability to to play Halo on Hard mode.

.

Im fairly sure this is not true. First it doesnt make any sense in terms of naming. (You mean to tell me that in canon, the story of the Halos occured on the difficulty called "Hard" and not on the difficulty called Normal? You realize this sounds rediculous)

Second, it fails to match up with any source of canon on the Halos. Try getting through the Halos on hard without ever taking armor damage, its near impossible because the enemy does so much damage per shot (on legendary 3 shots from a Plasma Rifle caused armor damage) yet the Master Chief in the books RARELY even completely loses his shield. In the books he can take 3 hits from a Fuel Rod and still be standing.

No Im fairly certain the game designers intended for the game to be played on hard for maximum enjoyment that you get knowing that any of these challenges will easily be able to kill you and you will die quite a few times and burn through ammo like mad. The story would take place on Normal however.

However your point stil stands. The shield goes down VERY quickly. 3-4 shots would probably drop a Spartan

However contrary to your hard vs normal mode argument. Please go the menu for the diffuculties in the halo games. Heroic is hard mode not legendary which would be very hard mode. It states that "This is the way Halo was meant to be played" this could be taken multiple ways. For instance you could take this as this is how the game is meant to be played enjoyably. However it could also take this is how it would actually be for a Spartan. I think the latter or else they would have made this the normal mode as to encourage most people to play it.

Galdos wrote:Second, it fails to match up with any source of canon on the Halos. Try getting through the Halos on hard without ever taking armor damage, its near impossible because the enemy does so much damage per shot (on legendary 3 shots from a Plasma Rifle caused armor damage) yet the Master Chief in the books RARELY even completely loses his shield. In the books he can take 3 hits from a Fuel Rod and still be standing.

Has there even been an official statement from the owners of the IP regarding any supposed canonicity of the novels?

I know this is a fairly tricky subject. Many people just assume that anything published under a label is "all canon", but as franchises such as Star Trek or 40k show us, that must not always be the case.
And even where a company has stated this would be the case ... just look at the Mass Effect: Deception debacle.

Details such as "what does it take to lose the shield" are fairly open to story necessities. If a writer does not feel the character should require medical aid soon, it may simply regarded as prudent to make sure he never gets wounded in the first place. Until the story calls for it.

Void__Dragon wrote: http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/2/22/20781_md-Chaos%20Space%20Marines,%20Emperor's%20Children,%20Noise%20Marines.jpg
I know, a bit out of date, but I had to.

A bit of silliness is fine - if coupled with the proper amount of Grimdark.
Yeah, it seems a bit contradictory, but .. I dunno, I just feel as if GW managed to hit that very thin line between awesome and crazy. Even with Noise Marines. They do have their place in the setting.

Void__Dragon wrote:I'm guessing you haven't read much of either?

Black Library, not really. Star Wars ... uhhh ... certainly more, but only a couple dozen novels and comics. Due to the size of the franchise, I don't think it would qualify as "much". Either I was just very lucky with Star Wars, or had lots of bad luck with 40k. You gotta agree that the "hero hype" is much stronger with 40k, though, and 90% of anything Black Library churns out seems to be another story about how the Space Marines save the day. I can't say for sure that the EU as a whole has better writing, but I can say for sure that it has more diversity.

Void__Dragon wrote:I hope you are not trying to imply SW EU is consistent, lol.

Well, unlike 40k, it at least does have official policies regarding canon, as well as a database and a dedicated employee who is tasked with solving potential contradictions (see here). This makes discussions amidst fans much easier to solve, as you can actually point to a source and say "this tops that".

Void__Dragon wrote:Which none of my examples had, and frankly, 40k as a setting may be gritty, but it isn't even close to realistic. I mean, look at Harker. He strangles a Tyranid Ravener with his bare hands, a feat on par with the strength of a Marine. He's a normal human.

Regarding your examples ... you do know that a microsecond is one millionth of a second? We're not talking about this Thiel just stabbing another guy. To pull this off, his weapon basically needs to be displaced and rematerialise inside its target. That's anime-level shenanigans, and not something I could take serious.
I realise that the author likely did not intend it to be read that literal, and that this is just exaggeration for the purpose of adding more epicness to this singular act ... and if it was just a one time slip-up, I could easily forgive him. But it seems to be that such narration occurs throughout the entire book.

As for Harker, he's certainly not "a normal human", which is evident when you look at his TT stats (S4) or read his fluff. In my opinion, these Black Library novels just served to push people's expectations of the gap between Marines and humans too far apart from how GW portrays the setting. That may be a flaw in the eyes of someone who agrees with some of these novel authors, but you cannot fault the creators of the franchise for just having a different position of how their world should look like. If anything, blame the novel authors for creating such a schism in the fanbase.

Void__Dragon wrote:40k is founded on incredible feats of might and heroism.

Hmmh, I won't deny this, but the 40k I know is still more realistic.
I suppose it is a question of thresholds. Perhaps we all just draw the line in different places, as far as "power levels" are concerned.

Also, I wouldn't much say that 40k is "founded on incredible feats of might and heroism" but rather the myths and tales of them. Just like in the real world, it doesn't actually mean they occurred as such. One of my issues with 40k and its novels is that some of the latter try to push something into reality which I've always took to be obvious propaganda / hearsay / legend. I always thought that GW's own narrative style in its books sometimes delivered fluff in analytical manner and sometimes in exaggeration. Like, do you really believe people going blind because they saw the Emperor? Suuuuure ... that's what the old texts say, after all ...

Void__Dragon wrote:To demonstrate an example I posted... Argel Tal, despite his prowess, and despite knowing that betraying the Imperium is wrong, and the ugly truth of Chaos, hell, despite growing to resent and loathe Lorgar, his Primarch, is ultimately unable to turn his back on Lorgar, despite not wanting to go through with Lorgar's designs. That is a weakness, he is loyal to a self-destructive extent.

I suppose that depends on how that weakness is perceived. I don't know this particular story, so I cannot say whether or not it can be redeemed this way. In my experience, most of these supposed weaknesses are more or less just an alibi to make characters appear somewhat less two-dimensional, even though "invincible god of war #0815" is still the most important part of their description.

I mean, look at the Space Wolves. Their fans point towards the wolf mutations as their "flaw". But is it truly a flaw when that's exactly what so many of their fans also think is "cool"? That's like saying vampires having to suck blood is a weakness. Sure, in some way it is, but at the same time it is what makes them popular. That's not how weaknesses work as far as "narrative balance" is concerned. Which is why not everyone who liked Dracula likes Twilight.

Void__Dragon wrote:In the case of the Eternals, to be fair, they are basically the Cthulhus/Chaos Gods of Doctor Who.

Still not feeling compared to take a closer look at this series. From all I've heard, it just seems so ... random and disjointed.

 Lynata wrote:

Galdos wrote:Second, it fails to match up with any source of canon on the Halos. Try getting through the Halos on hard without ever taking armor damage, its near impossible because the enemy does so much damage per shot (on legendary 3 shots from a Plasma Rifle caused armor damage) yet the Master Chief in the books RARELY even completely loses his shield. In the books he can take 3 hits from a Fuel Rod and still be standing.

Has there even been an official statement from the owners of the IP regarding any supposed canonicity of the novels?

I know this is a fairly tricky subject. Many people just assume that anything published under a label is "all canon", but as franchises such as Star Trek or 40k show us, that must not always be the case.
And even where a company has stated this would be the case ... just look at the Mass Effect: Deception debacle.

Details such as "what does it take to lose the shield" are fairly open to story necessities. If a writer does not feel the character should require medical aid soon, it may simply regarded as prudent to make sure he never gets wounded in the first place. Until the story calls for it.

The novels, short films (minus some of the cartoons), commercials and the ARG (Alternate Reality Game) are all considered canon (the ARG wasn't for a while since it involved a time-travelling fragment of an AI, but one of the creators loved it and made it in to official canon). There are a few fluff snafus right now because the Fall of Reach novel is still considered canon even though it and the game don't agree on the length of the invasion. But the game is a timeline retcon of the Fall of Reach which stretches the invasion out to a month or two rather than a few days (a good improvement in my eyes).

I figure if we are looking for canon damage values then it would be best to go with Multiplayer damage levels (especially now that MP is considered part of the canon, as a training simulator for Spartan IV's). This paints even mass-market Mjolnir suits as pretty damn tough (and really damn versatile as well). But like most fictional things it isn't talked about any more than exactly how tough SM power armour really is. FW often publishes numbers that make things suck, BL often has things working as narratives require and rules apparently don't represent how things go down in the fluff but are made "gameable" because no one wants to play 6-man movie marine armies.

Hard number and fiction seldom mix well (and often end up looking silly down the line when people give them a look).

But yes, Halo secondary media is part of the canon and get to add their inconsistencies to the rest as normal.

Ronin_eX wrote:But like most fictional things it isn't talked about any more than exactly how tough SM power armour really is. FW often publishes numbers that make things suck, BL often has things working as narratives require and rules apparently don't represent how things go down in the fluff but are made "gameable" because no one wants to play 6-man movie marine armies.

On a sidenote, Marine power armour received a fairly extensive fluff description (an entire page) in the old Codex: Angels of Death, and interestingly the percentage given for prevention of injuries from the "most common small arms" fits to what happens when you roll the dice for an Imperial Guardsman's lasgun in the tabletop or in GW's Inquisitor RPG. I don't know exactly where the "lasguns can't harm PA" stuff comes from, but it's not GW. The studio agreed, however, that the game's rather neutral rules are too limiting for epic storytelling, which is (if you listen to this interview of Dan Abnett) why Black Library was created as a separate division, essentially creating a clear barrier between the game's own fluff and the various things you get to read in other books.

As for nobody wanting to play Movie Marines ... you'd be surprised at how many people think that this is how Space Marines are "supposed to be" - even though the article itself makes it clear right in the introduction that the entire thing is a reality-defying exaggeration intended to depict Space Marines as Hollywood would do it.

Kind of like some of the novels, when you think about it.

Thanks for the clarification on the other franchise, by the way. Seems like the Halo franchise runs similar to BioWare's Mass Effect and Dragon Age, then, at least for the time being. Blizzard has just recently publicly rescinded their "our P&P RPG is canon" decree. For what it's worth, I think that one actually depicted a more interesting and consistent world than what Azeroth looks like now.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
There are a few fluff snafus right now because the Fall of Reach novel is still considered canon even though it and the game don't agree on the length of the invasion

There's a lot of things the game and book don't agree on. One of the major plot points of Glasslands was that Halsey was surprised and upset at the existence of the SIII's, yet she was aware of and talking to Noble team during the Reach campaign.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Ronin_eX wrote:
There are a few fluff snafus right now because the Fall of Reach novel is still considered canon even though it and the game don't agree on the length of the invasion

There's a lot of things the game and book don't agree on. One of the major plot points of Glasslands was that Halsey was surprised and upset at the existence of the SIII's, yet she was aware of and talking to Noble team during the Reach campaign.

Ya Reach actually makes 0 sense in the Halo series. If you accept Reach than you have to ignore every single Halo book there is and even Halo 4. (Every book refrence the last and Halo 4 has many refrences to the Kilo 5 trilogy)

However contrary to your hard vs normal mode argument. Please go the menu for the diffuculties in the halo games. Heroic is hard mode not legendary which would be very hard mode. It states that "This is the way Halo was meant to be played" this could be taken multiple ways. For instance you could take this as this is how the game is meant to be played enjoyably. However it could also take this is how it would actually be for a Spartan. I think the latter or else they would have made this the normal mode as to encourage most people to play it.

Hence why i said I believe. You are correct it can be taken different races. Im going to go off a mix of the name and the fact that the game simply seems to match up better with the books.

Lol you guys are still debating?

Even if SPARTANS are able to be equal with tactical I seriously doubt that they woudl be able to fight Assault Marines or Sternguard and Veterans, never mind Terminators.

Or are you guys suggesting that SPARTANS can beat Terminators in combat?

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Lol you guys are still debating?

Even if SPARTANS are able to be equal with tactical I seriously doubt that they woudl be able to fight Assault Marines or Sternguard and Veterans, never mind Terminators.

Or are you guys suggesting that SPARTANS can beat Terminators in combat?

There's no such thing as a Terminator, relatively speaking.

Just a Space Marine in Terminator armor.

And since the discussion is X v. Y, sans armor and weapons, your entire post is null.

Try reading the question, next time.

 TheCaptain wrote:

And since the discussion is X v. Y, sans armor and weapons, your entire post is null.

Try reading the question, next time.

You mean reading the question that I answered a page ago?
Then you can try to read and answer my question: what is the point of debating this when we all know that Marines win every time?
Being in power armor or terminator armor the Marines will always win, no contest really.

Well lets deconstruct each opponent (since I'm sick and have nothing better to do.

They both have re-enforced skeletons
They both stand between 7 and 7.5 feet tall
They both have enhanced strength to super human levels
They both have enhanced reflexes through augmentation of their nerves system
They both have a lifetime of training

When you break it down I think it's going to be a draw almost all of the time.

 bibblles wrote:
Well lets deconstruct each opponent (since I'm sick and have nothing better to do.

They both have re-enforced skeletons
They both stand between 7 and 7.5 feet tall
They both have enhanced strength to super human levels
They both have enhanced reflexes through augmentation of their nerves system
They both have a lifetime of training

When you break it down I think it's going to be a draw almost all of the time.

I agree on all except the lifetime of training. Marines have multiple lifetimes of training and experience.

For the first few posts I thought it was about the Greek Spartans.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

And since the discussion is X v. Y, sans armor and weapons, your entire post is null.

Try reading the question, next time.

You mean reading the question that I answered a page ago?
Then you can try to read and answer my question: what is the point of debating this when we all know that Marines win every time?
Being in power armor or terminator armor the Marines will always win, no contest really.

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

 Kaldor wrote:

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

I know very well what I am talking about.

Space Marines would beat SPARTANS in any fight, be it range or close combat. Even if they are both naked and in the same room.

What is not to understand here?

I think a Space Marine would win, maybe not easily and probably with a wound or three but I think a Space Marine has the advantage. I think he has better energy stores and faster healing, so he can go more rounds than a Spartan could.

I think a Spartan vs a Space Marine in Power Armour with standard weapons would be more strung out.

Spartan vs Space Marine Terminator, well depends on what the Spartan is armed with. He only needs to destabilise the land under the terminator to make him fall over and the Space Marine is a lost cause. They need assistance to get up and have limited movement, fire arcs, and reaction times. They are more heavily protected, being like a walking tank but that comes at a cost like above.

As others have said, its all in who publishes it. Anyone recall the two batman/spawn crossover books from the 90's? In Images book batman was a know it all DICK, in the DC book Spawn was a n unrepentant psycho killer and a dick.

For myself the two are more or less even without armor. The Spartan honestly is most likely better trained and understands his gear better. They are more or less two ends the SM is biotechnology while the spartan is nano/cyber technology.

who wins is a toss up, as its who makes the first mistake, like most fights with well trained people.

Spartans, marines can't beat energy shielding. Now I understand high ranking astartes do have energy shielding, but spartan ones seem more sophisticated in addition to being standard

Well 40k does have such things, its simply they are rare and most folks will never even see one and few know how to make them.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

I know very well what I am talking about.

Space Marines would beat SPARTANS in any fight, be it range or close combat. Even if they are both naked and in the same room.

What is not to understand here?

They are too evenly matched to make that call. If you insist otherwise, it's only through ignorance.

Be careful, your fanboyism is showing.

It's not my fanboyism, I know that because I played Halo. Even if SPARTANS are on pair when it comes to enchantments ( but I doubt that Chief could survive long under water or in vacuum of space ) I do not believe they have better armor ( Astartes armor can deflect tank shots even if it's weak in joints ) and I am not even going to start on weapons ( Assault Rifle vs. Bolter - you make the call ).
Even SPARTAN shields are weak, they are gone in one to three plasma shots.
I ma not even going to mention close combat, I can't remember how many times Elites with plasma sword kill me in one hit at full shields...
People are also argumenting that SPARTANS are tough because they can flip over a tank, Astartes can go trough tank with power fist or power axe.

I every other category Astartes are superior,
-They are immortal ( not sure for SPARTANS but I am pretty much sure they aren't since that was never mentioned ).
-They can lose much of their body and still fight on.
-They can fight more terrifying foes and being in more desperate situations and still emerge victorious.
-Some of them can cast psychic powers.
-They can yield more heavily weapons ( while SPARTANS can yield missile launchers I would love to see them yield MBT's cannon and Plasma Cannons ).

It's not fanboyism but reality.
Even if Astartes and SPARTANS are matched in close combat ( even there it's not a fair fight giving what their standard armament are and what kind of weapons can either yield ) in close combat the Astartes are champions ( just put any SPARTAN against Khorne Berzerker or Death Company marine and see how long the SPARTAN will last ). As for everything else Astartes are far better ( SPARTANS do not have their own fighting force, their own vehicles and walkers, their own fleets... ).

But truth be told I love either one of them, they are both protectors and defenders of Mankind even if they are so different from one another,

 Harriticus wrote:
Spartans, marines can't beat energy shielding. Now I understand high ranking astartes do have energy shielding, but spartan ones seem more sophisticated in addition to being standard

Have you not played any of the Halos?

Shields are not THAT GOOD. They are useful, but if you are planning on relying on them you are fethed. The basic rifle of a Space Marine could probably pen the shields of a Spartan after like 3 shots (remember, gun is full auto, so pretty much one burst)



Of course this is still ignoring the fact that THATS NOT WHAT THE OP ASKED! Why do we keep talking about armor and weapons? The question was who would win in a boxing match.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
It's not my fanboyism, I know that because I played Halo. Even if SPARTANS are on pair when it comes to enchantments ( but I doubt that Chief could survive long under water or in vacuum of space ) I do not believe they have better armor ( Astartes armor can deflect tank shots even if it's weak in joints ) and I am not even going to start on weapons ( Assault Rifle vs. Bolter - you make the call ).
Even SPARTAN shields are weak, they are gone in one to three plasma shots.
I ma not even going to mention close combat, I can't remember how many times Elites with plasma sword kill me in one hit at full shields...
People are also argumenting that SPARTANS are tough because they can flip over a tank, Astartes can go trough tank with power fist or power axe.

I every other category Astartes are superior,
-They are immortal ( not sure for SPARTANS but I am pretty much sure they aren't since that was never mentioned ).
-They can lose much of their body and still fight on.
-They can fight more terrifying foes and being in more desperate situations and still emerge victorious.
-Some of them can cast psychic powers.
-They can yield more heavily weapons ( while SPARTANS can yield missile launchers I would love to see them yield MBT's cannon and Plasma Cannons ).

It's not fanboyism but reality.
Even if Astartes and SPARTANS are matched in close combat ( even there it's not a fair fight giving what their standard armament are and what kind of weapons can either yield ) in close combat the Astartes are champions ( just put any SPARTAN against Khorne Berzerker or Death Company marine and see how long the SPARTAN will last ). As for everything else Astartes are far better ( SPARTANS do not have their own fighting force, their own vehicles and walkers, their own fleets... ).

But truth be told I love either one of them, they are both protectors and defenders of Mankind even if they are so different from one another,

You're using video games as reference for Spartans.

And Fluff as reference for Astartes.

(That's a triple-facepalm)

If you're not a fanboy (which you evidently must be), then you lack an understanding of logic-based comparison.

Wanna compare Chief to an Astartes in Video Game terms? Grots are far weaker than Grunts. The Astarte in THQ's Space Marine can die to grots.

Wanna compare them fluffwise? Read the books, or you are not a valid source of knowledge and input in this discussion. Saying "I've played Halo" is as much research into Spartan capability as playing a few games of 40k.

That is, not enough.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
It's not my fanboyism, I know that because I played Halo. Even if SPARTANS are on pair when it comes to enchantments ( but I doubt that Chief could survive long under water or in vacuum of space ) I do not believe they have better armor ( Astartes armor can deflect tank shots even if it's weak in joints ) and I am not even going to start on weapons ( Assault Rifle vs. Bolter - you make the call ).
Even SPARTAN shields are weak, they are gone in one to three plasma shots.
I ma not even going to mention close combat, I can't remember how many times Elites with plasma sword kill me in one hit at full shields...
People are also argumenting that SPARTANS are tough because they can flip over a tank, Astartes can go trough tank with power fist or power axe.

Right, so you're basing this purely off playing Halo.

So, you don't know what you're talking about. Go read Fall of Reach and First Strike and get back to me.

Old topic, discussed here over 4 years ago, with 914 current posts. Anything said here has been said there, years ago.

/thread.

RivenSkull wrote:
Old topic, discussed here over 4 years ago, with 914 current posts. Anything said here has been said there, years ago.

/thread.

It's like Forge World topics. It's all been hashed out over and over and over and over. It'll never die.

RivenSkull wrote:
Old topic, discussed here over 4 years ago, with 914 current posts. Anything said here has been said there, years ago.

/thread.

Look ! A guy thats been here not that long and knows how the search function works on Dakka ! MIRACLE.
You could all learn alot from this guy.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

I every other category Astartes are superior,
-They are immortal ( not sure for SPARTANS but I am pretty much sure they aren't since that was never mentioned ).
-They can lose much of their body and still fight on.
-They can fight more terrifying foes and being in more desperate situations and still emerge victorious.
-They can yield more heavily weapons ( while SPARTANS can yield missile launchers I would love to see them yield MBT's cannon and Plasma Cannons ).

Space Marine's aren't immortal, they live a long time, but eventually get old, senile and weak. (Few ever make it there though. Well Dreadnoughts do, they get senile and lose the plot so they get woken less and less, then replaced).
I think they only fight on because they don't bleed to death and better skilled than say a Guardsman to deal with the pain. Horus was brought close to death because his blood wouldn't coagulate,requiring countless transfusions.
I dunno on the foes thing eh, I liken the flood to the Alien Facehugger. I'd imagine a lot of people, even Space Marines might be creeped out by something trying to hump their face. (I wonder what the resulting Alien would be like from an impregnated Space Marine). 40k's Daemons are probably the only thing a Halo based universe hasn't got an equivalent of.
Heavy weapons, hard to say. It takes 2 guardsmen to carry around a heavy bolter, etc and it has to be placed on a surface to brace it, tripod/low wall, etc. A Space Marine can carry one but requires suspensors to fire it while moving. I would say an Ogryn has the ability to carry one, but fingers to fat to fire one. So a Spartan has the ability to carry any heavy weapon a Space Marine can, but they don't have the integrated power supply attached to their armour for a plasma cannon, etc to be powered by.

Nevertheless, this is clearly a win for the astartes




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevertheless, this is clearly a win for the astartes

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Nevertheless, this is clearly a win for the astartes

It's really not that clear cut. Anyone saying it is, is either grossly underestimating Spartans or overestimating Astartes.

 Kaldor wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Nevertheless, this is clearly a win for the astartes

It's really not that clear cut. Anyone saying it is, is either grossly underestimating Spartans or overestimating Astartes.

After reading all of your replies. I feel like it is definitely a win for the Astartes. Having more and better augmentations and more experience (which helps with martial prowess). Not as apparent as I first thought. It would be an incredible fight,

Even in the Factpile MC VS SM. the sm came out on top, just going on each universes fluff of said soldier.

How the hell is that even a question?

just my fanboy 2 cents, plasma takes out spartan shield, plasma strait out kills space Marines.

also for out of armor lets look at this, space Marine runs at 40+ mph, spartans 60+. therefor spartans have stronger legs, space Marines can stomp each others brains out, so spartans can easily stomp on Marine heads. but why would they only put that much strength on the legs? my money is on spartans being stronger and faster.

 soundwave591 wrote:
j
also for out of armor lets look at this, space Marine runs at 40+ mph, spartans 60+. therefor spartans have stronger legs,

By that logic, all sprinters should be the best at doing squats

 prophet102 wrote:


After reading all of your replies. I feel like it is definitely a win for the Astartes. Having more and better augmentations and more experience (which helps with martial prowess). Not as apparent as I first thought. It would be an incredible fight,

Training is about even. Ok Spartans may have more of it by time they go "active" then a SM will based on training from birth not starting at 8 or 9. which one has "More" or "Better" augmentation is subjective. They have little that over lap, even if they kinda do the same kind of things. SM are stronger, Spartans are faster, which is tougher is debatable. Really like most fighters between well trained folks, it really is a coin toss and not an "auto win" every time.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Training is about even. Ok Spartans may have more of it by time they go "active" then a SM will based on training from birth not starting at 8 or 9.

Marine implementation starts at age 10-14 and finishes at 16-18, actually, at which point they will join the ranks. Before induction, a future recruit may receive training according to local native custom (which is quite likely, given that many Chapters recruit from Feral Worlds). Though I am not sure how that would relate to proper military discipline, I'd expect that the Marine does retain a small benefit from this, even if it is mostly made irrelevant by hypno-indoctrination. Some Chapters also do recruit earlier than 10-14, but you can more or less forget about that for military experience. A Salamanders recruit "proving his worth" as an apprentice blacksmith is of rather dubious relevance to his later battlefield performance. (it could even make him less experienced, as it obviously takes away from the time he might have spent as an adolescent native warrior fighting the local fauna)

If you really want to read up on Marine recruitment, initiation and training, here is an online copy of the Index Astartes article that was published in WD #247.

Likewise, I will point out that you cannot train someone "from birth". Okay, sure, the indoctrination itself would start from a few months on, but I'd say that actual military exercise won't be possible until after a few years of growth. Or am I truly underestimating a toddler's potential as a warrior?

I do wonder why people are trying to frame Spartans as the "small and fast" guy rather than another 7' tall super-strong guy that also happens to have reaction boosters. The Spartan has several muscle boosters implanted and is the same average height as a Marine. Bodies don't function like RPGs and most of our physical "stats" are cross related in some way (with the main difference being between fast and slow muscles). Both Marines and Spartans aren't trained like, say, body-builders or weight lifters who try to over-specialize our muscular systems toward specific ends. They are cross-trained to have good performance regardless of the muscle group in use. So if a Spartan can run as fast or faster than a Marine, we can either assume their training was geared toward making them runners or we can assume that their general strength, fitness and other physical traits are similar to a Marine (I suggest the latter, simply because I don't remember any bits from the Halo books where they specifically trained to be the best sprinters known to man; it was more a knock-on effect of being super-strong).

Without armour on you would be hard pressed to tell which one is a Space Marine and which is a Spartan (though less obvious neural interface would help if they were both buck nekkid).

The fight is not a fight of fast vs. strong. It is a fight of fast/strong/agile vs. fast/strong/agile. The big-slow-dude and small-agile-dude thing is pretty close to being a media-derived stereotype that has more to do with the existence of things like body builders and sprinters who are both overspecialized for a given task than it does to do with fighters and soldiers (I would be hard pressed to define Muhammad Ali as slow because he was a heavyweight boxer or define Bruce Lee as not objectively really freaking strong just because he was a little dude).

A bare-knuckle fight between Astartes and Spartans would be a bone crushing slug-fest of epic proportions with the loser finally going down because his brain has had more than enough of slamming into an nearly unbreakable skull over and over. Without really exacting descriptions of the tensile strength of their bone structures and how much force each of their punches deliver, I am feeling safe in saying that it is a close to 50/50 match. The Marine has some nice tricks like a few backup organs, acid spit and a bit of a healing factor. The Spartan has 300% boosted reaction times that allow him to avoid hits and pick his own punches better.

In armour things get much more complicated and dependent on a wide variety of variables (too many, I'm glad this one went for two of them locked in a room without anything but their own natural augments).

But yeah, given what we know about the baseline physical abilities of both of them, a white-room weaponless brawl will see an even split in wins. Too close to call.

Now where would the human combat forms from Old Man's War fall in to this? Or a Culture SC Agent (probably unfair since most of them contain too many weapons)?

[Edit]

And Spartans are not trained from birth. They were all six years old when they started training. Important clarification. Too lazy to see when they finished training and did their first real mission though. I'll leave that to someone else.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
And Spartans are not trained from birth. They were all six years old when they started training. Important clarification. Too lazy to see when they finished training and did their first real mission though. I'll leave that to someone else.

14, I believe.

 Harriticus wrote:
Spartans, marines can't beat energy shielding. Now I understand high ranking astartes do have energy shielding, but spartan ones seem more sophisticated in addition to being standard

Given how their shielding goes down to a stiff breeze and once down their armor is easily busted through I would say your assertion is incorrect.

In game it takes very little to take out the Spartan's shield and once down they die quickly. A marine's armor is always on.


Of course that doesn't matter in this discussion.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Ronin_eX wrote:
And Spartans are not trained from birth. They were all six years old when they started training. Important clarification. Too lazy to see when they finished training and did their first real mission though. I'll leave that to someone else.

14, I believe.

It was Eight, according to the books, as well as Halo: Legends, and Halo 4.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Spartans, marines can't beat energy shielding. Now I understand high ranking astartes do have energy shielding, but spartan ones seem more sophisticated in addition to being standard

Given how their shielding goes down to a stiff breeze and once down their armor is easily busted through I would say your assertion is incorrect.

In game it takes very little to take out the Spartan's shield and once down they die quickly. A marine's armor is always on.


Of course that doesn't matter in this discussion.

By the same token, a third of the time an Astartes is one-shotted by a lasgun or autopistol. So all the Spartan has to do is fire three rounds from his sidearm and the Marine goes down.

Direct in-game comparisons don't work, and you can't use a game rated for FPS playability as a benchmark.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Spartans, marines can't beat energy shielding. Now I understand high ranking astartes do have energy shielding, but spartan ones seem more sophisticated in addition to being standard

Given how their shielding goes down to a stiff breeze and once down their armor is easily busted through I would say your assertion is incorrect.

In game it takes very little to take out the Spartan's shield and once down they die quickly. A marine's armor is always on.


Of course that doesn't matter in this discussion.

By the same token, a third of the time an Astartes is one-shotted by a lasgun or autopistol. So all the Spartan has to do is fire three rounds from his sidearm and the Marine goes down.

Direct in-game comparisons don't work, and you can use a game rated for FPS playability as a benchmark.

The 40k game is abstracted, Halo is not.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Halo is not.

Of course it is. It's as much a game as 40K is.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Halo is not.

Of course it is. It's as much a game as 40K is.

True but Halo is (apart from some books) is totally based around the typical fairy tail/ super hero story/ video game etc in which Master Chief (or other spartan depending on novel or game) always wins saving the day do pretty messed up stuff to triumph over the forces of evil
Space marine whilst bad ass super soldiers don't have the same problem as they don't have the hero card making them always win and will still be butchered in their hundreds usually dying to pretty stupid and shameful deaths.

\
To answer the debate it really depends on the actual space marine for example a chapter master or other high ranking space marine would butcher a spartan while a normal marine would probably be an even contest with the marine having a slightly better chance of beating said spartan
In the end no one can really win as both are totally different universes that will never EVER meet unless the creators/ companies that made each one agree on doing a showdown between the two as no matter what people think they can not decidewho wins since in the end no matter how knowledgeable about it you are, you do not decide the creators do

 GhostKnight31 wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Halo is not.

Of course it is. It's as much a game as 40K is.

True but Halo is (apart from some books) is totally based around the typical fairy tail/ super hero story/ video game etc in which Master Chief (or other spartan depending on novel or game) always wins saving the day do pretty messed up stuff to triumph over the forces of evil
Space marine whilst bad ass super soldiers don't have the same problem as they don't have the hero card making them always win and will still be butchered in their hundreds usually dying to pretty stupid and shameful deaths.

Except they have 2 games where the day is not saved super hero style, Noble Six gets killed regardless of player ability and the Spirit of Fire is lost at the end of Halo Wars. I would say 40k has more super hero/fairy tail related endings when it comes to Imperial combat. Halo sticks to the Master Chief did XYZ but failed to save 123. 40k is Scout Marine Pythonius destroyed chaos with a fart because farts are cool and although the rest of the universe is dead, Go Imperium!!! You may achieve something with Halo, but you failed to save people, your win isn't so fantastic. 40k is a you did it, everyone else is dead, their deaths have no meaning whatsoever. Halo shoulders you with responsibility, 40k makes you an Ork constantly seeking conflict without regard. Other than a set number of Black Library books, everything 40k is set to "Go (Insert army here)". Draigo, Tigurius, Calgar, etc are all Never Lose characters. No matter the odds, then the codex extends it to every other member. Through characters like Garviel Loken, we see through his eyes, one of the few non fairy tail endings of 40k.

SkyD wrote:

 GhostKnight31 wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Halo is not.

Of course it is. It's as much a game as 40K is.

True but Halo is (apart from some books) is totally based around the typical fairy tail/ super hero story/ video game etc in which Master Chief (or other spartan depending on novel or game) always wins saving the day do pretty messed up stuff to triumph over the forces of evil
Space marine whilst bad ass super soldiers don't have the same problem as they don't have the hero card making them always win and will still be butchered in their hundreds usually dying to pretty stupid and shameful deaths.

Except they have 2 games where the day is not saved super hero style, Noble Six gets killed regardless of player ability and the Spirit of Fire is lost at the end of Halo Wars. I would say 40k has more super hero/fairy tail related endings when it comes to Imperial combat. Halo sticks to the Master Chief did XYZ but failed to save 123. 40k is Scout Marine Pythonius destroyed chaos with a fart because farts are cool and although the rest of the universe is dead, Go Imperium!!! You may achieve something with Halo, but you failed to save people, your win isn't so fantastic. 40k is a you did it, everyone else is dead, their deaths have no meaning whatsoever. Halo shoulders you with responsibility, 40k makes you an Ork constantly seeking conflict without regard. Other than a set number of Black Library books, everything 40k is set to "Go (Insert army here)". Draigo, Tigurius, Calgar, etc are all Never Lose characters. No matter the odds, then the codex extends it to every other member. Through characters like Garviel Loken, we see through his eyes, one of the few non fairy tail endings of 40k.

What? fairy tale? when did 40k go Disney? I like the way you make the master chief sound reasonable, it's not like he's a one man, walking army of doom.....oh wait..... . This whole thread reads like a pair of five year old orphan's fighting over who's non-existent daddy could beat the other non-existant daddy in a fight. Mega-Man would kick both their asses.

 mwnciboo wrote:


What? Unlike the Master Chief who is a one man army of doom. This whole thread reads like a pair of five year old orphan's fighting over who's non-existent daddy could beat the other non-existant daddy in a fight.

Mega-Man would kick both their asses.

He probably would.

I'm just speaking for myself and my thoughts. Just following the ark of reach to Halo 3's start; Few ships escaped Reach, most people died. Of those ships that escaped we got to follow one, which ended up with all on board dead bar around 1 pelican full, we then get to watch most of the people on Earth killed. We watch people who rely on John and those who support John die. Those deaths have meaning. 40k is full of one man tanks, people who perform feats of Fairy Tale, the difference is, 40k characters seldom seem to give a damn for anyone but themselves. The consequences of a 40k failure have no impact, they are given no impact. No matter who you are in 40k, in the end you are nothing but a statistic.

 Lynata wrote:


Likewise, I will point out that you cannot train someone "from birth". Okay, sure, the indoctrination itself would start from a few months on, but I'd say that actual military exercise won't be possible until after a few years of growth. Or am I truly underestimating a toddler's potential as a warrior?

Weeding out and training can start at a very young age. IIRC the children were taken as toddlers or maybe younger, been a while since I read those books. What I am getting at is by the time a SM has his first implate the Spartan has been in training for years, he has lived and breathed military training and working as a unit. We can not say whose training is better for fact, we can guess but that is about it. Training like most things really only counts when its used. Parts of Sm training is useless to a spartan and would not come up in a fight and some of a Spartans training would be useless to a Sm or in a fight with one.

As I said before, its a coin toss who would win a pure unarmored fight.

 TheCaptain wrote:


You're using video games as reference for Spartans.

And Fluff as reference for Astartes.

That is, not enough.

Why not?
SPARTANS are primary based on video game ( video game stories are fluff the last time I checked, same goes for in game movies ), and I read novels too - they are not to much different in books too ( although they have their moments when they can do some really OTT things ).

All I want to say is that SPARTANS in videos games are not so different from book versions, on the other hand Astartes from HH novels and Space Marine books are much, much different then ones from DoW and Space Marine video game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaldor wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Halo is not.

Of course it is. It's as much a game as 40K is.

I am not seeing Halo miniatures anywhere... just saying...

So you're saying a game is only a game if it has miniatures?

Also...

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:


You're using video games as reference for Spartans.

And Fluff as reference for Astartes.

That is, not enough.

Why not?
SPARTANS are primary based on video game ( video game stories are fluff the last time I checked, same goes for in game movies ), and I read novels too - they are not to much different in books too ( although they have their moments when they can do some really OTT things ).

All I want to say is that SPARTANS in videos games are not so different from book versions, on the other hand Astartes from HH novels and Space Marine books are much, much different then ones from DoW and Space Marine video game.

Halo is a FPS. The game aspect is vastly different from the lore. As a FPS it needs to be balanced with a challenge for even the most skilled player, and balanced for multiplayer. The abilities and actions of the player in the game are completely separate from the abilities and actions of the character in the extended lore. We either compare lore vs lore, or game performance vs game performance.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:


You're using video games as reference for Spartans.

And Fluff as reference for Astartes.

That is, not enough.

Why not?
SPARTANS are primary based on video game ( video game stories are fluff the last time I checked, same goes for in game movies ), and I read novels too - they are not to much different in books too ( although they have their moments when they can do some really OTT things ).

All I want to say is that SPARTANS in videos games are not so different from book versions, on the other hand Astartes from HH novels and Space Marine books are much, much different then ones from DoW and Space Marine video game.

Halo is a FPS. The game aspect is vastly different from the lore. As a FPS it needs to be balanced with a challenge for even the most skilled player, and balanced for multiplayer. The abilities and actions of the player in the game are completely separate from the abilities and actions of the character in the extended lore. We either compare lore vs lore, or game performance vs game performance.

Im trying to compre in lore

And 40k wins again.

40k never loses a lore battle, ever.

I love me some Halo but the Spartans in the current Halo universe are Generation One, where Space Marines are the product of 1,000s of generations of perfecting the ideal killing machine. Also what needs to be considered is combat experience like in the movie Soldier the 2nd generation soldiers were physically better but Todd had a ton of experience. Your Driago, Lysander, Kharn they have probably been alive a lot longer than John and see more action. In their respective universes however a Space Marine while powerful has to contend with Nobz, Tyranid Warriors, Chaos Marines, and Eldar for the top spot where the Spartans are multiples ahead of Covenant Elites and Brutes.

SkyD wrote:

 mwnciboo wrote:


What? Unlike the Master Chief who is a one man army of doom. This whole thread reads like a pair of five year old orphan's fighting over who's non-existent daddy could beat the other non-existant daddy in a fight.

Mega-Man would kick both their asses.

He probably would.

I'm just speaking for myself and my thoughts. Just following the ark of reach to Halo 3's start; Few ships escaped Reach, most people died. Of those ships that escaped we got to follow one, which ended up with all on board dead bar around 1 pelican full, we then get to watch most of the people on Earth killed. We watch people who rely on John and those who support John die. Those deaths have meaning. 40k is full of one man tanks, people who perform feats of Fairy Tale, the difference is, 40k characters seldom seem to give a damn for anyone but themselves. The consequences of a 40k failure have no impact, they are given no impact. No matter who you are in 40k, in the end you are nothing but a statistic.

Sure both of the universes have fairy tale feats. 40k doesnt only have this however, please go read Gaunts Ghosts then tell me deaths mean nothing and characters dont give a damn about each other. Or Galaxy in Flames from the HH series, im fairly certain the loyalists dont win their either. While im at it. Those of you saying you cant take the game itself as a representation for Halo. Please keep in mind that for 40k the codex's and such are the law and the lore their is always true and always overwrites BL. However in Halo, what happens in the game is always going to be the law as that is the original source and straight from the creators.

 Grey Templar wrote:
And 40k wins again.

40k never loses a lore battle, ever.

The Culture would like to have a word...

 Ronin_eX wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
And 40k wins again.

40k never loses a lore battle, ever.

The Culture would like to have a word...

No i have to agree with Grey Templar. 40k has such a vast amount of super-lore it cant lose

Hargus56 wrote:
I love me some Halo but the Spartans in the current Halo universe are Generation One, where Space Marines are the product of 1,000s of generations of perfecting the ideal killing machine. Also what needs to be considered is combat experience like in the movie Soldier the 2nd generation soldiers were physically better but Todd had a ton of experience. Your Driago, Lysander, Kharn they have probably been alive a lot longer than John and see more action. In their respective universes however a Space Marine while powerful has to contend with Nobz, Tyranid Warriors, Chaos Marines, and Eldar for the top spot where the Spartans are multiples ahead of Covenant Elites and Brutes.

Wrong. The spartans are generation 2-4.

Credibility: lost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:


You're using video games as reference for Spartans.

And Fluff as reference for Astartes.

That is, not enough.

Why not?
SPARTANS are primary based on video game ( video game stories are fluff the last time I checked, same goes for in game movies ), and I read novels too - they are not to much different in books too ( although they have their moments when they can do some really OTT things ).

All I want to say is that SPARTANS in videos games are not so different from book versions, on the other hand Astartes from HH novels and Space Marine books are much, much different then ones from DoW and Space Marine video game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaldor wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Halo is not.

Of course it is. It's as much a game as 40K is.

I am not seeing Halo miniatures anywhere... just saying...

The video game is based primarily on the backstory. Mixed with balancing and playability.

And there are Halo miniatures.

Credibility: lost.

If we compare fluff. the Space marine is more powerful than Master chief, significantly so.

you cannot compair Plasma weapons of 1 universe to that of another just because they have the word "plasma" in the title. Agian when you go through Factpile just look for the L-W posts this guy has pretty much read everything there is to read about 40k/halo.

"the Plasma bolter as described by the Codex is the equivelant of a Halo Capital Class Cruisers energy projector. The sheer yields inidcated by the advanced power fusion reaction systems used in 40K weaponry suggests that the Plasma ordinance used in the 31st Century would be the equivelant of Covenant Cruiser ordinance in the 25th.

Basically the stabilization and range are vastly improved, thus the Plasma weapons creates a golden hue surrounding the arc of each inidivudal bursts; since the ordinance actually ionizes the air rather than merely dissipating needlessly. Even the novels mention the extreme long lasting environmental disturbance caused by exploding Plasma rounds, such as rapid heat death and small scale “atom smashing”."
- L-W

 Ninjacommando wrote:
If we compare fluff. the Space marine is more powerful than Master chief, significantly so.

No he's not.

 Grey Templar wrote:
And 40k wins again.

40k never loses a lore battle, ever.

My man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaldor wrote:

 Ninjacommando wrote:
If we compare fluff. the Space marine is more powerful than Master chief, significantly so.

No he's not.

Mephiston is a Space Marine too, would you dare to say that Chief has any chance against him in close combat?

 TheCaptain wrote:

Hargus56 wrote:
I love me some Halo but the Spartans in the current Halo universe are Generation One, where Space Marines are the product of 1,000s of generations of perfecting the ideal killing machine. Also what needs to be considered is combat experience like in the movie Soldier the 2nd generation soldiers were physically better but Todd had a ton of experience. Your Driago, Lysander, Kharn they have probably been alive a lot longer than John and see more action. In their respective universes however a Space Marine while powerful has to contend with Nobz, Tyranid Warriors, Chaos Marines, and Eldar for the top spot where the Spartans are multiples ahead of Covenant Elites and Brutes.

Wrong. The spartans are generation 2-4.

Credibility: lost.

Spartans are generations 1-4. Generation 1 was run as the Orion Project, which was used as the starting point for the Spartan 2 project, to the point the Orion project was renamed Spartan 1.
This was a big part of the iLoveBees ARG (and hinted at spartan 1.5's as the product of offspring from Spartan 1s).
Its also somewhat well known that Sergent Avery Junior Johnson was a Spartan 1.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Mephiston is a Space Marine too, would you dare to say that Chief has any chance against him in close combat?

Why not? It'd be no less credible than him taking out the Didact.

I read almost every halo book and many black library books. But they never really answered my question. So I do know a lot of background. And in conclusion im almost positive the Marine would face stomp the Spartan.

 prophet102 wrote:
I read almost every halo book and many black library books. But they never really answered my question. So I do know a lot of background. And in conclusion im almost positive the Marine would face stomp the Spartan.

Oh please, tell me how this one 7 foot tall superhuman is so obviously superior to this other 7 foot tall superhuman?

 Kaldor wrote:

 prophet102 wrote:
I read almost every halo book and many black library books. But they never really answered my question. So I do know a lot of background. And in conclusion im almost positive the Marine would face stomp the Spartan.

Oh please, tell me how this one 7 foot tall superhuman is so obviously superior to this other 7 foot tall superhuman?

Hes bigger, superior enhancements, and more experience

 prophet102 wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 prophet102 wrote:
I read almost every halo book and many black library books. But they never really answered my question. So I do know a lot of background. And in conclusion im almost positive the Marine would face stomp the Spartan.

Oh please, tell me how this one 7 foot tall superhuman is so obviously superior to this other 7 foot tall superhuman?

Hes bigger, superior enhancements, and more experience

I thought you said you'd read the expanded lore for Halo?

A Marine is not bigger, his enhancements are on-par, and experience certainly plateaus after a relatively short amount of time.

Here's an idea, strictly going by the games

Pound for pound, I think it's safe to say an Ork is tougher than, say, an elite

In the Space Marine game, Titus is show to be able to make heads explode with a well placed punch and stomp.

In the games, Master chief can't even get close the same result while clubbing said elites with his weapons.

Space Marine > Spartan 2

One could argue that chief can apparently flip tanks over, but your only allowed this ability to be able to drive it again, the same strength doesn't transfer to your smacks so doesn't count.

Bam

(Yeah I know it's weak but the weak punches in the halo games always irked me)

 Kaldor wrote:

 prophet102 wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 prophet102 wrote:
I read almost every halo book and many black library books. But they never really answered my question. So I do know a lot of background. And in conclusion im almost positive the Marine would face stomp the Spartan.

Oh please, tell me how this one 7 foot tall superhuman is so obviously superior to this other 7 foot tall superhuman?

Hes bigger, superior enhancements, and more experience

I thought you said you'd read the expanded lore for Halo?

A Marine is not bigger, his enhancements are on-par, and experience certainly plateaus after a relatively short amount of time.

They are bigger. They are more barrel chested and more muscular. Not taller. But bigger. And the enhancements are better. 2 hearts 3 lungs, a chest plate, spit acid, lymans ear and many more. Marines cn take a much heavier beating.

 Necroshea wrote:
Here's an idea, strictly going by the games

There's your first problem.

 prophet102 wrote:
They are bigger. They are more barrel chested and more muscular. Not taller. But bigger.

Says who? Spartans weigh in at ~450 pounds. They are both huge units. The rounded 'barrel-chested' appearance of marines comes from the oversized, heroic scale, rounded chest armour they wear.

And the enhancements are better. 2 hearts 3 lungs, a chest plate, spit acid, lymans ear and many more. Marines cn take a much heavier beating.

The enhancements are comparable. Spartans have all sorts of modifications to artificially increase muscle mass, but also alter muscle type, processing fuel faster and making more efficient use of oxygen. They also have reaction speeds up to three times faster than Marines, who have no upgrades to their reflexes at all.

At the end of the day, they're both superhuman warriors of a similar size and similar capabilities. Blathering on about how it's no contest, and Marines will win every time is just blatant fanboyism.

 Kaldor wrote:

 prophet102 wrote:
They are bigger. They are more barrel chested and more muscular. Not taller. But bigger.

Says who? Spartans weigh in at ~450 pounds. They are both huge units. The rounded 'barrel-chested' appearance of marines comes from the oversized, heroic scale, rounded chest armour they wear.

And the enhancements are better. 2 hearts 3 lungs, a chest plate, spit acid, lymans ear and many more. Marines cn take a much heavier beating.

The enhancements are comparable. Spartans have all sorts of modifications to artificially increase muscle mass, but also alter muscle type, processing fuel faster and making more efficient use of oxygen. They also have reaction speeds up to three times faster than Marines, who have no upgrades to their reflexes at all.

At the end of the day, they're both superhuman warriors of a similar size and similar capabilities. Blathering on about how it's no contest, and Marines will win every time is just blatant fanboyism.

Im not saying that they will win every time. But they have advantage.

Spartans still have human proportions. So they are really just slightly taller humans.

Marines have different proportions all together, being much broader. This gives them more muscle mass in all the key areas.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Spartans still have human proportions. So they are really just slightly taller humans.

Marines have different proportions all together, being much broader. This gives them more muscle mass in all the key areas.

Exactly my point. And what is the second one there? it is too pixelated so i cant read the label

Thats a very tall Basketball player. It shows human proportions at the height of a marine.

 Kaldor wrote:

 prophet102 wrote:
They are bigger. They are more barrel chested and more muscular. Not taller. But bigger.

Says who? Spartans weigh in at ~450 pounds. They are both huge units. The rounded 'barrel-chested' appearance of marines comes from the oversized, heroic scale, rounded chest armour they wear.

And the enhancements are better. 2 hearts 3 lungs, a chest plate, spit acid, lymans ear and many more. Marines cn take a much heavier beating.

The enhancements are comparable. Spartans have all sorts of modifications to artificially increase muscle mass, but also alter muscle type, processing fuel faster and making more efficient use of oxygen. They also have reaction speeds up to three times faster than Marines, who have no upgrades to their reflexes at all.

At the end of the day, they're both superhuman warriors of a similar size and similar capabilities. Blathering on about how it's no contest, and Marines will win every time is just blatant fanboyism.

God you are tiring anyway. Going logically please take a look at a Spartans head. Even theyre head looks like it conforms to a thinner body. Muscle mass isnt everything either. To fit an the many differant organs added to a Space Marine theyre chest is going to have to get a bit bigger. As far as I know Spartans get taller perhaps a bit wider. But they dont get the barrel chested bulk of a Marine.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Spartans still have human proportions. So they are really just slightly taller humans.

Marines have different proportions all together, being much broader. This gives them more muscle mass in all the key areas.

Not canon, and more importantly not even consistent. Look at the lats on the marine without armour, and compare them to the top of the chest armour on the right. There is no way that over-exaggerated marine would fit in that armour, and even if it would the armour itself is drawn directly from the heroic scaled 40K models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Prism962 wrote:
But they dont get the barrel chested bulk of a Marine.

Why not?

Careful, your fanboyism is showing.

If im a fanboy im a fanboy of both. I was introduced to the Halo universe long before the 40k universe and a spartan wouldnt have that bulk as its not needed. In fact Id say its a hindrance in some cases. Other than for things where that size may be useful for instance in a fist fight at times. At other times it would most likely make you slower and less agile, also a bigger target on the field. A spartan doesn't have any organs added into his torso. Yes the spartan has muscular enhancements and bone enhancements. However looking at the representation of the Spartans in video games they are still very close to human proportions even when armoured. If you look at the armour especially in halo 4 as well, you can see sections that are just what appears to be a skin tight glove in many places. From that point you can easily picture a Spartans physique without armour. A Space Marine is trickier. But going from simply design. What would be the point of having the armour added substantial girth to the marine in the form of his width. Yes it will push you out a bit as it is think armour. But would it really make your shoulders that much wider and give you that much of a chest? Oh and by the way, your fanboyism is showing.

Prism962 wrote:

If im a fanboy im a fanboy of both. I was introduced to the Halo universe long before the 40k universe and a spartan wouldnt have that bulk as its not needed. In fact Id say its a hindrance in some cases. Other than for things where that size may be useful for instance in a fist fight at times. At other times it would most likely make you slower and less agile, also a bigger target on the field. A spartan doesn't have any organs added into his torso. Yes the spartan has muscular enhancements and bone enhancements. However looking at the representation of the Spartans in video games they are still very close to human proportions even when armoured. If you look at the armour especially in halo 4 as well, you can see sections that are just what appears to be a skin tight glove in many places. From that point you can easily picture a Spartans physique without armour. A Space Marine is trickier. But going from simply design. What would be the point of having the armour added substantial girth to the marine in the form of his width. Yes it will push you out a bit as it is think armour. But would it really make your shoulders that much wider and give you that much of a chest? Oh and by the way, your fanboyism is showing.

See, what you're doing it starting with your conclusion, and then searching to find reasons to support it. It's a bad way of doing business, and it loses you credibility.

So basically what I've heard so far is that spartans are genetically enhanced with heightened reflexes, 400% vs 100%, Also, they are about 1.5 times faster, which means their muscle mass is more effecient, asssuming they don't train specifically for running. They also have slightly augmented inteligence. They have less muscle mass, but this is made up for in effeciency

Astartes have numerous trick organs and redundancies. This makes them better in a protracted fistfight, a war of localized attrition. His blows would be able to be ore numerous to oxygen use.

Each is best at his own trade, spec ops vs localized attrition. If it was in a plain white room, 20 by 20, id give it to the marine 75- 25

If it was in a forest(no scavenging), Id give it to the spartan 75-25

If it was 2 squads in a 100 by 100 room, with a roomwide balcony, spartans slight advantage. 60-40

If it was 2 squads in a forest, no scavenging, spartans would crush them 85-15

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:
So basically what I've heard so far is that spartans are genetically enhanced with heightened reflexes, 400% vs 100%, Also, they are about 1.5 times faster, which means their muscle mass is more effecient, asssuming they don't train specifically for running. They also have slightly augmented inteligence. They have less muscle mass, but this is made up for in effeciency

Astartes have numerous trick organs and redundancies. This makes them better in a protracted fistfight, a war of localized attrition. His blows would be able to be ore numerous to oxygen use.

Each is best at his own trade, spec ops vs localized attrition. If it was in a plain white room, 20 by 20, id give it to the marine 75- 25

If it was in a forest(no scavenging), Id give it to the spartan 75-25

If it was 2 squads in a 100 by 100 room, with a roomwide balcony, spartans slight advantage. 60-40

If it was 2 squads in a forest, no scavenging, spartans would crush them 85-15

Eh? Weren't space marines supposed to be spec ops? Guard are for attrition, I thought marines were the get in get out force.

 Necroshea wrote:

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:
So basically what I've heard so far is that spartans are genetically enhanced with heightened reflexes, 400% vs 100%, Also, they are about 1.5 times faster, which means their muscle mass is more effecient, asssuming they don't train specifically for running. They also have slightly augmented inteligence. They have less muscle mass, but this is made up for in effeciency

Astartes have numerous trick organs and redundancies. This makes them better in a protracted fistfight, a war of localized attrition. His blows would be able to be ore numerous to oxygen use.

Each is best at his own trade, spec ops vs localized attrition. If it was in a plain white room, 20 by 20, id give it to the marine 75- 25

If it was in a forest(no scavenging), Id give it to the spartan 75-25

If it was 2 squads in a 100 by 100 room, with a roomwide balcony, spartans slight advantage. 60-40

If it was 2 squads in a forest, no scavenging, spartans would crush them 85-15

Eh? Weren't space marines supposed to be spec ops? Guard are for attrition, I thought marines were the get in get out force.

Space Marines are more of heavy shock troops that also carry out Spec Ops missions. They are a flexable toolbox that can do just about anything.

 Necroshea wrote:
Pound for pound, I think it's safe to say an Ork is tougher than, say, an elite

Why?

 Grey Templar wrote:


Space Marines are more of heavy shock troops that also carry out Spec Ops missions. They are a flexable toolbox that can do just about anything.

And spartans are....

(Protip; they're the same thing.)

I've always thought of a Spartan being equivalent to a Storm Trooper. Storm Troopers are the absolute best humanity has to offer that aren't Astartes. Check their fluff, they're actually pretty baddass. So, by this logic, I reckon a 10th company scout could handle a Spartan and a full marine would stomp one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note: This is just my opinion and I have no intention of getting drawn into a useless argument about it. Feel free to disagree with me, publicly if you must.

 Kaldor wrote:

Prism962 wrote:

If im a fanboy im a fanboy of both. I was introduced to the Halo universe long before the 40k universe and a spartan wouldnt have that bulk as its not needed. In fact Id say its a hindrance in some cases. Other than for things where that size may be useful for instance in a fist fight at times. At other times it would most likely make you slower and less agile, also a bigger target on the field. A spartan doesn't have any organs added into his torso. Yes the spartan has muscular enhancements and bone enhancements. However looking at the representation of the Spartans in video games they are still very close to human proportions even when armoured. If you look at the armour especially in halo 4 as well, you can see sections that are just what appears to be a skin tight glove in many places. From that point you can easily picture a Spartans physique without armour. A Space Marine is trickier. But going from simply design. What would be the point of having the armour added substantial girth to the marine in the form of his width. Yes it will push you out a bit as it is think armour. But would it really make your shoulders that much wider and give you that much of a chest? Oh and by the way, your fanboyism is showing.

See, what you're doing it starting with your conclusion, and then searching to find reasons to support it. It's a bad way of doing business, and it loses you credibility.

Im making a statement and then supporting it. In the writing world if I was writing a paper id call it a my thesis with my topic sentences. This would be akin to an intro paragraph. But id pull out much of the detail to save for later parts of the paper. So no. Its not a conclusion.

http://dagobah.net/flash/Space_Marines_vs_Spartans.swf
Basically this.
Its funny because its so bloody true lol. I killed 2000 on my first run.

So thats the answer to the lore question.
\
Marines.
Every bloody time.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:


Space Marines are more of heavy shock troops that also carry out Spec Ops missions. They are a flexable toolbox that can do just about anything.

And spartans are....

(Protip; they're the same thing.)

I never said they weren't. I was correcting someone elses slight misinformation.

 Guardsman Bane wrote:
I've always thought of a Spartan being equivalent to a Storm Trooper. Storm Troopers are the absolute best humanity has to offer that aren't Astartes. Check their fluff, they're actually pretty baddass. So, by this logic, I reckon a 10th company scout could handle a Spartan and a full marine would stomp one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note: This is just my opinion and I have no intention of getting drawn into a useless argument about it. Feel free to disagree with me, publicly if you must.

A stormtrooper?

Sure. Personally, I think Astartes are the equivalent of Stormtroopers from Star Wars.

 Kaldor wrote:


Sure. Personally, I think Astartes are the equivalent of Stormtroopers from Star Wars.

You...you might be on to something there.

 Asherian Command wrote:
http://dagobah.net/flash/Space_Marines_vs_Spartans.swf
Basically this.
Its funny because its so bloody true lol. I killed 2000 on my first run.

So thats the answer to the lore question.
\
Marines.
Every bloody time.

So much no.

1000x no.

The spartans aren't even remotely scale! Also, they should be able to take like 4 bolter shots

To be honest this is after all 40k forum and on 40k forum Warhammer 40k wins 99% of the times when compared to something. Same goes for HALO forums where HALO wins 99% of the time because people don't know anything about other universes ( I have read for example that SPARTAN would prevail against Astartes because they have better fighting spirit ).

That's why we need to find someone who knows everything about those two, and I think this post nails it down. It was written by fan of both 40k and Halo:

"Most people say Spartans because they don't know what 40k is.
Let me give everyone a basic rundown of abilities, disposition, and weapons:
Spartans: genetically enhanced humans. Usually 7 ft tall, if memory serves me correctly. If we take the best Spartan-II, the Chief, and look at his armor as an example of the best Spartan armor, we get a shield that can absorb a set amount of damage. The amount varies with the fluff/games, but in general let's say that it can absorb ~two clips from an SMG at medium range before blowing out. His armor provides a good layer of backup protection, but without his shield the Chief isn't nearly as good. Under a sustained barrage of bullets, it will buckle. His armament consists mainly of simple projectile based weaponry to anti-tank weaponry like the Spartan laser and the SPANKR rocket launcher to heavy antipersonnel in the sniper rifle. They have been known to utilize Covenant tech, which consists of Energy Swords, plasma guns, fuel rod cannons, needlers, and several other energy based weapons. He is much faster than a human in hand to hand, and is equal in physical power to an Elite, at least in the short run.
Now, let us examine a Space Marine.
A member of the Adeptus Astartes is, on average, 8 feet tall and nearly twice as wide as a Spartan without armor, three times with. The height ranges dramatically, depending on the chapter and primarch from whence they are descended (e.g. SW are huge and feral, DA maybe not so much, etc etc), as well as predisposed genetics before they were chosen for the rituals to become an Astartes. They are the fastest human warriors in hand to hand without armor, and even more OP with it. Their armor augments their strength - let's say they can bench 1k without armor. 2-3 k with armor. Ceramite armor can last direct exposure (e.g. being dunked) to molten magma for several seconds (5+) before breaching. Their weaponry consists of mini rocket launchers in bolters - for those of you familiar with Halo, imagine a semi-auto Brute Shot with appx. 20 rounds in a clip (debatable, some sources say more) - for a base weapon, melta guns as a medium to short range shotgun that can melt through the thickest tank armor out there (imagine a Halo shotgun if every pellet did energy sword-level damage), lascannons (imagine a Spartan Sniper as a laser beam that holds anti-tank capabilities, being able to scythe through tank armor like cheese if used properly), rocket launchers (let's just keep this at a similar level to SPANKRs), power weapons (which again can cut through tank armor), and large ridiculously OP hammers that can literally smash tanks up (like I said, literally).
In conclusion: a SM is bigger, stronger, not faster (due to bulk of armor, we'll give this one to the Spartan), has superior tech, and can fight with half his brain blown out. SM wins every time.
Also, this debate has been done to death on most forums online. Just google warhammer vs. halo, space marine vs. spartan, space marine vs. jedi (if you're interested), etc etc etc.
Source(s):
fan of both, just think that there's no way Spartans could ever prevail without a decided advantage"

Witch just proves what I said earlier, SPARTAN has superior speed and that's about it - in everything else he is outclassed, especially in close combat and Heavy Armor area.

This is just painful.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
the best Spartan-II, the Chief

Wrong.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
A member of the Adeptus Astartes is, on average, 8 feet tall

Wrong.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
and nearly twice as wide as a Spartan without armor

Wrong.

The author of that piece has already lost his credibility, especially when he goes on to say "Oh, Marines are strong and their armour makes them stronger" like Spartans aren't just as strong and don't have powered armour that enhances their strength as well. Sheesh.

Spartan powered armour has nothing on Astartes armour by feats, nor does the superhuman inside it compare, honestly.

Astartes have superior feats of reaction and striking speed, lengthier and more intense training ,greater feats of endurance and durability, and their strength is undeniably greater.

ScreamPaste wrote:
Spartan powered armour has nothing on Astartes armour by feats, nor does the superhuman inside it compare, honestly.

Astartes have superior feats of reaction and striking speed, lengthier and more intense training ,greater feats of endurance and durability, and their strength is undeniably greater.

Careful, Kaldor's gonna bite your head off because your Fanboyisim is showing(His does does too)

ScreamPaste wrote:
Spartan powered armour has nothing on Astartes armour by feats, nor does the superhuman inside it compare, honestly.

Astartes have superior feats of reaction and striking speed, lengthier and more intense training ,greater feats of endurance and durability, and their strength is undeniably greater.

*sigh*

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

What Astartes implant enhances reaction time and reflexes? None. When has an Astartes fallen from orbit and walked away from it? Never. When has an Astartes bitch-slapped an incoming surface-to-air missile out of the air and survived? Never.

It was a ground attack (air to ground) missile, not a surface to air missile if you're talking about the one John slapped away whilst "training".

 Still Standing wrote:
It was a ground attack (air to ground) missile, not a surface to air missile if you're talking about the one John slapped away whilst "training".

Sorry, you're right I put that fack to bront.

 Kaldor wrote:
[They also have reaction speeds up to three times faster than Marines, who have no upgrades to their reflexes at all.

lol

"Considering the mental and
physical strain of such bewildering manoeuvres, the fact that
few Land Speeders are lost to pilot error can be solely
attributed to the superhuman reactions and stamina of the
Space Marines who crew them."
- Codex: Space Marines, 5e, page 74

 Kaldor wrote:

ScreamPaste wrote:
Spartan powered armour has nothing on Astartes armour by feats, nor does the superhuman inside it compare, honestly.

Astartes have superior feats of reaction and striking speed, lengthier and more intense training ,greater feats of endurance and durability, and their strength is undeniably greater.

*sigh*

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

What Astartes implant enhances reaction time and reflexes? None. When has an Astartes fallen from orbit and walked away from it? Never. When has an Astartes bitch-slapped an incoming surface-to-air missile out of the air and survived? Never.

Like I know, could be the extensive genetherapy, or the centuries of training in a universe that runs on Charles Atlas Superpower (There are unaugmented humans in 40k with superhuman feats), or it could be the neurological changes made to Astartes, regardless they display it with consistency.

Also, lol @ the falling thing being used as an impressive feat. Chief would hit terminal velocity and his accelleration would stop. Normal humans have survived falls at terminal velocity. Unharmed even, rare as that is.

Space Marines have an implant that increases their perception/senses, as well as enhances their musculature.

Wanna know what both of those combined equal? Superhuman reaction-time, lol.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Space Marines have an implant that increases their perception/senses, as well as enhances their musculature.

Wanna know what both of those combined equal? Superhuman reaction-time, lol.

Really? Look, being able to hear better doesn't mean you can respond to it any quicker. The signal still has to hit the eye, travel to the un-augmented brain via un-augmented nerves, be interpreted by the un-augmented brain, a suitable response formed, that response transmitted by the un-augmented nerves to the relevant augmented muscles where it can be carried out.

This goes for both Spartans and Astartes, except Spartans do it 300% quicker thanks to their particular implants and upgrades. Because their nerves and brain are augmented, unlike the Astartes.

 Kaldor wrote:
Really? Look, being able to hear better doesn't mean you can respond to it any quicker. The signal still has to hit the eye, travel to the un-augmented brain via un-augmented nerves, be interpreted by the un-augmented brain, a suitable response formed, that response transmitted by the un-augmented nerves to the relevant augmented muscles where it can be carried out.

This goes for both Spartans and Astartes, except Spartans do it 300% quicker thanks to their particular implants and upgrades. Because their nerves and brain are augmented, unlike the Astartes.

You seem to be under the impression that I haven't invalidated your claims with a quote from a codex.

You must have missed my post near the top of the page.

And frankly, going by EU/book feats, Space Marines are better, in terms of reaction-time.

Honestly man that quote means little. "Super human reflexes" tells us nothing, and no change listed for SM seems to effect reaction time.

Spartans IIRC have a rebuilt nervous system and a computer in the brain.The are the other end of SM( One bio-engineered the other mostly cybernetic) , but both are more or less the same thing.

Spartans have no magic to call upon, but otherwise they are more or less even,

On multiple occasions, Space Marines are shown to parry or dodge bullets. They are ridiculously fast. On of the early Horus Heresy novels has a great quote about what makes Astartes so frightening to normal humans; it's not their huge size, strength or brutality, but just how ridiculously fast something that large can move. I'll see if I can dig it up.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Honestly man that quote means little. "Super human reflexes" tells us nothing, and no change listed for SM seems to effect reaction time.

Spartans IIRC have a rebuilt nervous system and a computer in the brain.The are the other end of SM, but both are more or less the same thing.

Spartans have no magic to call upon, but otherwise they are more or less even,

It tells us they have enhanced reflexes.

Seriously?

"Such feats require not only a
robust and responsive vehicle - which the Land Speeder
undoubtedly is - but also inhuman nerves and reactions on
the part of the pilot, explaining perhaps why Land Speeders
have for so long remained scarce outside of Space Marine
Chapters, and are chiefly absent in other wings of the
Imperium's military."
- Blood Angels, 5e, page 33


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Omegus wrote:
On multiple occasions, Space Marines are shown to parry or dodge bullets. They are ridiculously fast. On of the early Horus Heresy novels has a great quote about what makes Astartes so frightening to normal humans; it's not their huge size, strength or brutality, but just how ridiculously fast something that large can move. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Right.

Lucius, Argel Tal, that Rune Priest who I can't remember, etc.

Really, 40k as a setting is the type that even grants superhuman capabilities to particularly badass humans, like Commissar Yarrick, Eisenhorn, or Harker, or whoever. And people doubt the reaction-time of the Space Marines, lol?

Yeah as I said, it tells us nothing. As you have said named people in 40k are often over the top super human, even humans. Saying they have "inhuman nerves and reactions on
the part of the pilot" really does say nothing. We would say the same thing about any very skilled person better then the norm at something.

Nothing says they enhance reflexes. We have a massive list of changes and what each and every one does. Reflex enhancement is not among them that I recall.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Yeah as I said, it tells us nothing. As you have said named people in 40k are often over the top super human, even humans. Saying they have "inhuman nerves and reactions on
the part of the pilot" really does say nothing. We would say the same thing about any very skilled person better then the norm at something.

Nothing says they enhance reflexes. We have a massive list of changes and what each and every one does. Reflex enhancement is not among them that I recall.

All right, I'll hold your hand for the moment, and help you comprehend what is written.

In the Blood Angels quote in particular, the reaction-time of the pilots is referred to as inhuman. Now, while you could dismiss this as hyperbole, what follows is important: The direct statement that Land Speeders are scarcely piloted by non-Astartes, and completely absent in other wings of the military. Thus attributing that inhuman reaction-time to Space Marines in general, rather than personal prowess of its pilots.

So what you are saying is that they are piloted by non-Space Marines. This says that it is NOT the Marine's enhanced reflexes that allows them to pilot them. The Euro Fighter (current Air Superiority Jet used by some of the larger countries in Europe) requires inhuman reflexes and skills to keep it in the air too. Thus why we have computers to assist.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

All right, I'll hold your hand for the moment, and help you comprehend what is written.

In the Blood Angels quote in particular, the reaction-time of the pilots is referred to as inhuman. Now, while you could dismiss this as hyperbole, what follows is important: The direct statement that Land Speeders are scarcely piloted by non-Astartes, and completely absent in other wings of the military. Thus attributing that inhuman reaction-time to Space Marines in general, rather than personal prowess of its pilots.

Uh huh...if you say so man. But then 40k says the same thing about more or less everyone "NO you can't use that cheese grater! Only an Astarte can use it !No mere mortals could never use such a device, only the most holy ( and every expanding in size and might) SM can do that!"

Look we have a full list of every single change done to the SM, and what every single change does. Not a single one alters reaction. As whole all of them along with training may do that, like most highly trained folks but nothing puts them out of the realm of what a normal human could do reaction wise if very skilled and highly trained. They are stronger and tougher but nothing listed boots reflexes.

If you know of the organ that gives them better reflexes please list it. Otherwise its is pure SM hyperbole.

 Omegus wrote:
On multiple occasions, Space Marines are shown to parry or dodge bullets. They are ridiculously fast. On of the early Horus Heresy novels has a great quote about what makes Astartes so frightening to normal humans; it's not their huge size, strength or brutality, but just how ridiculously fast something that large can move. I'll see if I can dig it up.

The caveat of course being that anything an Astartes can do, a Spartan can do faster. Given that, of the two of them, only the Spartan has an enhanced brain and nervous system.

On this thread only you Kaldor and TheCaptain are defending SPARTANS, witch is ok giving that everyone has their own opinion. But your argumentation thus far has been nothing more than fanboyism in favor of SPARTANS, you rejected everything saying "it's wrong" without giving any explanation why and keep pushing that it's because "they are the same" witch clearly they are not.

Here, I can discredit you ass well like you did that chap:

Chief is the best SPARTAN that ever lived, just like Draigo is the best Grey Knight that ever lived. Chief ended Flood threat, the Covenant threat, destroyed at lest two Halo's and the Arc and it seems that he will end Fourrunner threat as well. While I do believe there are some other SPARTANS that are better than Chief in some other area or overall... noone get's even close to him when it comes to achievements and the results in the end. If we take all of this into account Chief is really the best SPARTAN II that ever lived.
Strike one.

Astartes are 7 feet tell without Power Armor, 8 feet tall with Power Armor and 10 feet tall with Terminator Armor. So that chap was right and you were wrong.
Strike two.

Spartans, even if enhanced a little, are still normal Humans when compared to everyone else. SPARTAN is not so different in appearance then normal UNSC marine and without armor they look just like ordinary one. Astartes on the other hand are much taller and at least twice as wider than normal Humans, and that's without their armor ( all those organs and bones enchantments tend to wide person a little ). And because SPARTANS are in appearance no different from other Humans that means that ordinary Marines are really twice as wide as SPARTANS when not in their armor.
Strike three.

And if we add your more fan than fact posts all over this thread you didn't just lose credibility for this thread but for this forum as well.

More realistic matching would be scout vs SPARTAN II or SPARTAN II vs. Crysis nanosuit, Astartes are just to elite warriors even for SPARTANS giving the universe they are in.
Like 99% of people here said: Marine crush SPARTAN like fly and goes on.

Or are you still saying that these guys:


can beat these guys:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Chief is the best SPARTAN that ever lived

Really? Best at what? Was he the fastest? Strongest? Smartest?

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
there are some other SPARTANS that are better than Chief

You seem a little confused.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Astartes are 7 feet tell without Power Armor, 8 feet tall with Power Armor and 10 feet tall with Terminator Armor. So that chap was right and you were wrong

Are you saying that Power Armour has 12" high heels? And that Terminator Armour has 24" heels.

No. Astartes are 7" tall. The armour, even terminator armour, adds a couple of inches.

Spartans, even if enhanced a little, are still normal Humans when compared to everyone else. SPARTAN is not so different in appearance then normal UNSC marine and without armor they look just like ordinary one. Astartes on the other hand are much taller and at least twice as wider than normal Humans, and that's without their armor ( all those organs and bones enchantments tend to wide person a little ). And because SPARTANS are in appearance no different from other Humans that means that ordinary Marines are really twice as wide as SPARTANS when not in their armor.
Strike three.

Nope. They are both ~7 feet tall. There are no sources stating Astartes are twice as wide as a human. That's ridiculous. And only an idiot would think the heavily muscled 7 foot tall superman (The Spartan, not the Astartes) looks any more similar to a regular human than an Astartes does. You're not an idiot, are you?

The reason I dismissed others, and yourself, so out-of-hand is because you provide no sources yet state your opinion as if it were fact. If you want anyone in life to take you seriously, then when you make a point you need to back it up. If you want to insist that Terminator armour adds 24" to someones height, you need to show where that extra height comes from. If you want to insist a Marine has at least a 70" waist, you need to back it up. If you want to insist that Spartans are less than six feet tall, you gotta prove it. Until then you're just blowing hot air to back up your favourite horse in the race.

A Spartan maintains the same proportions of a normal human. Just look at a picture. Unless you had a normal human nearby for reference you would never know they weren't a normal human in armor.

A Space Marine leaves no doubt they are not normal because of the altered proportions.

Careful Kaldor, your Fanboyisim is showing

 Grey Templar wrote:
A Spartan maintains the same proportions of a normal human. Just look at a picture. Unless you had a normal human nearby for reference you would never know they weren't a normal human in armor.

A Space Marine leaves no doubt they are not normal because of the altered proportions

Well then, it should be easy to provide an example. I'll wait right here.

Or we could accept that they are both super-muscled, and both have feats of exceptional strength attributed to them. Spartans are noted as having significantly more muscle mass than un-augmented humans. I don't understand people's fascination with insisting Astartes are stronger. Sure, they've got some more organs to fit in so by necessity they'll have more volume inside their chest, but why insist they so much more muscle? Even if they did, given the similar feats they perform that would only indicate that Astartes muscle is less efficient. If they are both capable of X, but one has less muscle, the who has the most efficient muscle? But I don't think they do have significantly less muscle.

 Still Standing wrote:
So what you are saying is that they are piloted by non-Space Marines. This says that it is NOT the Marine's enhanced reflexes that allows them to pilot them. The Euro Fighter (current Air Superiority Jet used by some of the larger countries in Europe) requires inhuman reflexes and skills to keep it in the air too. Thus why we have computers to assist.

No, actually it explicitly notes that it is very rare for a human being to pilot one, and completely unheard of in a military sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Uh huh...if you say so man. But then 40k says the same thing about more or less everyone "NO you can't use that cheese grater! Only an Astarte can use it !No mere mortals could never use such a device, only the most holy ( and every expanding in size and might) SM can do that!"

Look we have a full list of every single change done to the SM, and what every single change does. Not a single one alters reaction. As whole all of them along with training may do that, like most highly trained folks but nothing puts them out of the realm of what a normal human could do reaction wise if very skilled and highly trained. They are stronger and tougher but nothing listed boots reflexes.

If you know of the organ that gives them better reflexes please list it. Otherwise its is pure SM hyperbole.

An enhanced musculature would by definition enhance the speed at which your muscles move, and Astartes are noted many times to have eyesight both capable of seeing in low-light environments (Not really relevant in this instance) and preternaturally sharp. Both combined equate to enhanced reaction-time. And no, I am too lazy to look up the names of specific organs.

It's funny, you people are so caught up on the list of Space Marine implants that you're unwilling to so much as glance at their actual capabilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaldor wrote:
The caveat of course being that anything an Astartes can do, a Spartan can do faster. Given that, of the two of them, only the Spartan has an enhanced brain and nervous system.

This is a biased and flawed form of logic. If a "normal human" is capable of, saw, dodging an actual laser after it is fired, or splitting a glacier with a punch (I am talking about Karate Kid from DC comics, obviousleh), then should we assume the enhanced Spartans or Marines can do better?

If a Space Marine has the superior feats of reaction-time (And make no mistake he does, you don't want to get into a feat war with me), then he has the superior feats of reaction-time. Period.

people know the difference in weapon strengths between the 40k and halo verse right? Like the basic laspistol being able to exert more force than the gauss cannon on the back of a warthog .

"Eisenhorn Omnibus, page 483:
“I fired my laspistol, powering shot after shot at him, driving him backwards. His gold-chest battle suit, which gave his shrivelled frame the bulk and frame and proportions of a Space Marine, absorbed or deflected the impacts, but the sheer force knocked him back several paces.”

A) The man in the suit is a withered old Witch Hunter, who whilst receiving the benefit of the suits augmented strength, is relatively perhaps not the best candidate to wear Astartes gear in comparison to half a ton of naked Space Marine. Kind of obvious, but you need it spelled out for you.

B) Assuming that the old man weighs somewhere in the average 100kg range – for someone capable of wearing a two and a half meter tall suit without collapsing under their own weight – then coupled with the added tonnage of the suit itself, the Las-Pistol is capable of physically forcing (as the quote implies) 1.1 tons of mass at a distance of three meters; assuming of course that we’re talking about Space Marine sized paces.

Which means that a mass-less, photon based beam form the standard Imperial sidearm is capable of exerting 3300 newtons of force; in comparison a .50 caliber sniper rifle round generates only 20.59 newtons, it takes 700 newtons to lift a man off his feet and throw him, and the Gauss Cannon (the heaviest infantry operated anti-vehicle projectile weapon in the UNSC) is only responsible for less than a thousand newtons.

C) Last, and most importantly, he survived. Said beams, regardless of their imparted force and energy, were being deflected harmlessly off his suit; which when you think about the Las-Pistols ability to flash boil meter long Fish submerged in cold sea water, is incredibly impressive. "
-L-W

Power armour isn't that heavy lol.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
On this thread only you Kaldor and TheCaptain are defending SPARTANS, witch is ok giving that everyone has their own opinion. But your argumentation thus far has been nothing more than fanboyism in favor of SPARTANS, you rejected everything saying "it's wrong" without giving any explanation why and keep pushing that it's because "they are the same" witch clearly they are not.

No no. There's no defending an argument like this. Kaldor has tried to use logic, but this is a 40k forum, so any time someone says "Space Marine X will lose to External Fiction Y" It will unleash a torrent of rampant fanboyism ready to ignore any supporting claims and just say "No, Space Marines are Bigger!"

A discussion like this is impossible to have properly, because no one, save Kaldor, has demonstrated adequate knowledge of Spartans and the program, comparable to the accumulated 40k knowledge.

What all of you neglect is the factors of the fight itself. A spartan is trained in guerrilla warfare, and well versed in it. A spartan is adaptable to new foes. A spartan is trained to use his environment, as well as his opponent's weaknesses, against said opponent.

A codex compliant Space Marine will not be adaptable (See: First Tyrannic War). Save for a few, Space Marines will be taken off guard by Spartan guerrilla tactics.

Spartans are superior soldiers to men because they are all tactical geniuses, capable of formulating several battle strategies in seconds. Their augmentations merely let them put said strategies into action.

Space Marines have strength and endurance; no doubt.

But Spartans have speed, tactics, and reflexes.

The clear cut conclusion is that in a stand-up fistfight, the Space Marine would likely crush a Spartan. In a free for all in actual terrain, there would be a fight on our hands. Likely, tactics would win out for the Spartan, because knowledge is power.

If you can make sweeping claims that "Space Marine/Spartan would win! No question!" You are a fanboy and your input is detrimental to this discussion. If you don't know similar amounts about both mythologies, you are ignorant to the subject, and your input is detrimental to this discussion.

If you say "Well, lets just compare John and Mephiston, since they are the best!" you don't understand the concept of outliers, and why they aren't useful in comparisions. You don't understand fallacy, and your input is detrimental to this discussion.


Just my 2 (or 3) cents.
I know this is Dakka, but try to show a little less bias. Plenty of proper arguments for Space Marines have been put down, once you sift through some of the ridiculousness. I hope I demonstrated a relatively objective look at actual Spartan II capabilities that y'all can understand.
-TheCaptain

 Kaldor wrote:

ScreamPaste wrote:
Spartan powered armour has nothing on Astartes armour by feats, nor does the superhuman inside it compare, honestly.

Astartes have superior feats of reaction and striking speed, lengthier and more intense training ,greater feats of endurance and durability, and their strength is undeniably greater.

*sigh*

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

What Astartes implant enhances reaction time and reflexes? None. When has an Astartes fallen from orbit and walked away from it? Never. When has an Astartes bitch-slapped an incoming surface-to-air missile out of the air and survived? Never.

Stop saying they fell from orbit and survived. The only reason they can feasibly do that is by using debris and such to help with descent and because theyre armour locks.

the power armor and space marine would have to weight several tons, the ability to crush humans/gaunts flat by walking into them/rolling on the ground would require a lot of weight. The HH novel when horus is injured and the spess mahrens walk Horus through a croweded launchbay crushing/flattening all the people in the way, and in the 4th ed SM codex when Uriel ventris rolls crushing several hormagaunts beneath his weight. pg.2

 Ninjacommando wrote:
the power armor and space marine would have to weight several tons, the ability to crush humans/gaunts flat by walking into them/rolling on the ground would require a lot of weight. The HH novel when horus is injured and the spess mahrens walk Horus through a croweded launchbay crushing/flattening all the people in the way, and in the 4th ed SM codex when Uriel ventris rolls crushing several hormagaunts beneath his weight. pg.2

You don't need to be several tons to crush something. Space Marines are around somewhere in the 400-600 lb range with armor.

Several hundred pounds with force behind it will easily crush something mansized.

With those marines they were almost certaintly deliberatly stomping on people, plus if several hundred pounds are concentrated on the size of a marines boot its going to cause damage.

You seem to be under the impression that crushing/flattening means its like they got hit by a steamroller. It doesn't necessarily mean they are human shaped pancakes.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
On this thread only you Kaldor and TheCaptain are defending SPARTANS, witch is ok giving that everyone has their own opinion. But your argumentation thus far has been nothing more than fanboyism in favor of SPARTANS, you rejected everything saying "it's wrong" without giving any explanation why and keep pushing that it's because "they are the same" witch clearly they are not.

No no. There's no defending an argument like this. Kaldor has tried to use logic, but this is a 40k forum, so any time someone says "Space Marine X will lose to External Fiction Y" It will unleash a torrent of rampant fanboyism ready to ignore any supporting claims and just say "No, Space Marines are Bigger!"

A discussion like this is impossible to have properly, because no one, save Kaldor, has demonstrated adequate knowledge of Spartans and the program, comparable to the accumulated 40k knowledge.

What all of you neglect is the factors of the fight itself. A spartan is trained in guerrilla warfare, and well versed in it. A spartan is adaptable to new foes. A spartan is trained to use his environment, as well as his opponent's weaknesses, against said opponent.

A codex compliant Space Marine will not be adaptable (See: First Tyrannic War). Save for a few, Space Marines will be taken off guard by Spartan guerrilla tactics.

Spartans are superior soldiers to men because they are all tactical geniuses, capable of formulating several battle strategies in seconds. Their augmentations merely let them put said strategies into action.

Space Marines have strength and endurance; no doubt.

But Spartans have speed, tactics, and reflexes.

The clear cut conclusion is that in a stand-up fistfight, the Space Marine would likely crush a Spartan. In a free for all in actual terrain, there would be a fight on our hands. Likely, tactics would win out for the Spartan, because knowledge is power.

If you can make sweeping claims that "Space Marine/Spartan would win! No question!" You are a fanboy and your input is detrimental to this discussion. If you don't know similar amounts about both mythologies, you are ignorant to the subject, and your input is detrimental to this discussion.

If you say "Well, lets just compare John and Mephiston, since they are the best!" you don't understand the concept of outliers, and why they aren't useful in comparisions. You don't understand fallacy, and your input is detrimental to this discussion.


Just my 2 (or 3) cents.
I know this is Dakka, but try to show a little less bias. Plenty of proper arguments for Space Marines have been put down, once you sift through some of the ridiculousness. I hope I demonstrated a relatively objective look at actual Spartan II capabilities that y'all can understand.
-TheCaptain

Thank you for that well informed post. Which brings us back to the original situation. If they were in a small bare room, no armour, no weapons.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
the power armor and space marine would have to weight several tons, the ability to crush humans/gaunts flat by walking into them/rolling on the ground would require a lot of weight. The HH novel when horus is injured and the spess mahrens walk Horus through a croweded launchbay crushing/flattening all the people in the way, and in the 4th ed SM codex when Uriel ventris rolls crushing several hormagaunts beneath his weight. pg.2

A Space Marine, by Deathwatch numbers, is 700 pounds unarmoured. Very heavy for even their own prodigious height. Their armour is 180 kilograms, aka about 400 pounds. So a Space Marine would weight about half a ton, fully armoured.

Numbers for human power armour are even lower. 65 kilograms. 140 pounds.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Ninjacommando wrote:
the power armor and space marine would have to weight several tons, the ability to crush humans/gaunts flat by walking into them/rolling on the ground would require a lot of weight. The HH novel when horus is injured and the spess mahrens walk Horus through a croweded launchbay crushing/flattening all the people in the way, and in the 4th ed SM codex when Uriel ventris rolls crushing several hormagaunts beneath his weight. pg.2

A Space Marine, by Deathwatch numbers, is 700 pounds unarmoured. Very heavy for even their own prodigious height. Their armour is 180 kilograms, aka about 400 pounds. So a Space Marine would weight about half a ton, fully armoured.

Numbers for human power armour are even lower. 65 kilograms. 140 pounds.

SM power armor is not the same as "standard human power armor. SM armor is closer to human heavy Power armor in size and design(150 kg without militarily power pack/jump pack). We know from the HH you can get and make SM power armor to fit humans. It simply is not done inside the IoM. Other then tradition there is no reason humans can not have SM style and quality of armor.

True, but it would require some major refitting. Marine armor is designed to hook up with the Black Carapace, which a human will not have.

It will also be designed to fit the proportions of a marine, not a human. Which would make altering a Marine's PA to fit a human very impractical.

yes but what i'm saying the with the quote from the book said "His gold-chest battle suit, which gave his shrivelled frame the bulk and frame and proportions of a Space Marine" bulk is weight. so even if the guy who did the calc was off by the weight the recalc still puts the laspistol above 1k newtons which is still higher than the gauss cannon in halo.

and where did the 7' 2" come from? every freaking BL books pretty much says 2.5-3 meters in height.

"Almost three metres tall, Artemius towered over the Cordassan men." - Tales from the Dark Millenium, Pg. 18 Around 9 feet 6 inches tall.

“For such a giant, nearly three metres tall and two across, he moved with an easy, contained fluidity.” - Battle of the Fang, Pg. 8
Around 9 feet 6 inches tall. 6 feet wide.

“Where Sargaul reached almost two hundred and fifty centimetres tall in bare feet, Barsabbas was short for a Traitor Marine, topping out at two metres thirty in plated height.” - Blood Gorgons, p.14-15
A short Marine is around 7.5 feet tall. The other Marine is 250 centimeters, which is over 8 feet tall.

 Guardsman Bane wrote:
I've always thought of a Spartan being equivalent to a Storm Trooper. Storm Troopers are the absolute best humanity has to offer that aren't Astartes. Check their fluff, they're actually pretty baddass. So, by this logic, I reckon a 10th company scout could handle a Spartan and a full marine would stomp one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note: This is just my opinion and I have no intention of getting drawn into a useless argument about it. Feel free to disagree with me, publicly if you must.

I totally agree with you, Storm trooper fluff makes them so much better then there TT use...

Kaldor. What makes you right? as opposed to some of the other posters on this thread? You are simply shooting down everybodies posts by saying "your fanboyism is showing" when you are the only one here that seems to be a fanboy. I am a huge fan of the Haloverse and have been into it much longer than 40k. But when it comes down to brass tacks the Space Marine is superior to the Spartan II. The spartan may have superior tatics and knowledge but when you are locked in a room naked in a fight to the death does it even matter? Take a human and lock it in a room with a tiger. The human is smarter and has superior tactics but it still wont stand a chance.


And thank you TheCaptain. You seem to be the most mediated one here.

 Grey Templar wrote:
True, but it would require some major refitting. Marine armor is designed to hook up with the Black Carapace, which a human will not have.

It will also be designed to fit the proportions of a marine, not a human. Which would make altering a Marine's PA to fit a human very impractical.

Once more untrue. The black Carapace is cyberware that is only limited by tradition. Like the armor itself it is dark age tech. We know for fact humans used SM armor from the HH, it was identical in every way other then size ( it was shorter if I recall). The SM's where shocked and then where asked why as it was simply STC armor, they clearly must have a working STC as well as they used the same armor. Sm armor is a dark age STC design, it was armor made for humans the Big E then altered to fit his super humans. Not the other way around. Humans with the correct interface could use the Sm armor with little issue.

Prophet what your forgetting with your analogy, is the improved reaction times of Spartans. I my reactions were 300x faster I'd be fairly confidant that I could take on a tiger fairly easily in all honest. I belive reactions and speed matter,especially in a fist fight thats why I think Spartans would win in a 1v1 with snake Marines


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Prophet what your forgetting with your analogy, is the improved reaction times of Spartans. I my reactions were 300x faster I'd be fairly confidant that I could take on a tiger fairly easily in all honest. I belive reactions and speed matter,especially in a fist fight thats why I think Spartans would win in a 1v1 with snake Marines

 soundwave591 wrote:
Prophet what your forgetting with your analogy, is the improved reaction times of Spartans. I my reactions were 300x faster I'd be fairly confidant that I could take on a tiger fairly easily in all honest. I belive reactions and speed matter,especially in a fist fight thats why I think Spartans would win in a 1v1 with snake Marines


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Prophet what your forgetting with your analogy, is the improved reaction times of Spartans. I my reactions were 300x faster I'd be fairly confidant that I could take on a tiger fairly easily in all honest. I belive reactions and speed matter,especially in a fist fight thats why I think Spartans would win in a 1v1 with snake Marines

My only problem is where does it state that a spartan has reaction times that are 300x faster? People are giving all of there passages to support there reasons besides reaction times.

I only know about the spartans from the games/manuals, what I gleaned from this thread, and researched here:

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_augmentation_procedures

I get the strong impression that the spartans are modified humans; in that they still are basically humans with human cells, organs and basic human biochemistry with some additions bestowed upon them. They weigh in at about 400 pounds and can lift about 1200 pounds. They are stated as having a 300% increase in reflexes compared to normal humans which would seem to me to put them around space marine level (there are numerous examples of marine displaying superhuman reflexes). The one advantage they seem to have over marines is a faster sprinting speed. Marines, while slower when legging it, have demonstrated that they can maintain their top speed for a prolong time without exhaustion (Short story by Gav Thorpe had marines run 40 miles per hour for a half day IIRC). So it might be a slow and steady wins the race unless Spartans are on record for being able to sprint for days on end.

Space marines are basically a different species from humans. They have different cell structures, organs, and chemically composition than normal humans. Their implants are not a limit on their abilities, just what is added to them as they are being turned in to a space marine; every single part of a marine’s biology is distinct from a normal human. They don’t have normal human blood, organs, or cells; they are altered down to the genetic and chemical level - whereas the spartans seem like they are 90 percent human (spartans don’t seem to have super kidneys, stomaches, or immune cells; like the space marines for example - again I haven’t read the halo books so I might be wrong here). I remember reading that marines clock in around 700 pounds unarmored (normal ork boys are 500 pounds according the the Space Marine game manual IIRC). They are able to shrug off what would typically be lethal damage and heal near instantly, clouting over fatal wounds in mere seconds and shrugging off poisons that would kill a elephant. Being able to spit acid might actually be a huge boon in this situation as well; plus the inherited combat instincts and other assorted boons like being able to smell the spartan wouldn’t hurt the marine's odds.

I just don’t see in a bout fisticuffs the spartan could even serious hurt the marine via landing blows, let alone win. Marines are able to take an extreme level of damage, and I don’t think a spartan is able to inflict the necessary force to kill a marine using just his fists or found objects. And if we are hoping for a KO situation, marines brains are extremely trauma resistant as the can endure situations that would liquify the brain and other organs of a normal human being, which they demonstrate by withstanding the g-forces imposed on them by their drop pods. In the Eye of Terror novel a chaos marine was dispatched by his battle brother who shot him in the back of his unarmored head with a burst of bolter fire at point-blank range. It took multiple burst to kill the marine with his murderer ironically cursing the difficulty in killing a marine. There are numerous other examples found in novels and other sources depicting what is required to kill a marine and what level of damage they are able of surviving. This may be a bias from playing the halo games, but I am not left with the impressions that spartans are anywhere near that tough.

 Grunt13 wrote:
I only know about the spartans from the games/manuals, what gleaned from this thread, and researched here:

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_augmentation_procedures

I get the strong impression that the spartans are modified humans; in that they still are basically humans with human cells, organs and basic human biochemistry with some additions bestowed upon them. They weigh in at about 400 pounds and can lift about 1200 pounds. They are stated as having a 300% increase in reflexes compared to normal humans which would seem to me to put them around space marine level (there are numerous examples of marine displaying superhuman reflexes). The one advantage they seem to have over marines is a faster sprinting speed. Marines, while slower when legging it, have demonstrated that they can maintain their top speed for a prolong time without exhaustion (Short story by Gav Thorpe had marines run 40 miles per hour for a half day IIRC). So it might be a slow and steady wins the race unless Spartans are on record for being able to sprint for days on end.

Space marines are basically a different species from humans. They have different cell structures, organs, and chemically composition than normal humans. Their implants are not a limit on their abilities, just what is added to them as they are being turned in to a space marine; every single part of a marine’s biology is distinct from a normal human. They don’t have normal human blood, organs, or cells; they are altered down to the genetic and chemical level - whereas the spartans seem like they are 90 percent human (spartans don’t seem to have super kidneys, stomaches, or immune cells; like the space marines for example - again I haven’t read the halo books so I might be wrong here). I remember reading that marines clock in around 700 pounds unarmored (normal ork boys are 500 pounds according the the Space Marine game manual IIRC). They are able to shrug off what would typically be lethal damage and heal near instantly, clouting over fatal wounds in mere seconds and shrugging off poisons that would kill a elephant. Being able to spit acid might actually be a huge boon in this situation as well; plus the inherited combat instincts and other assorted boons like being able to smell the spartan wouldn’t hurt the marine's odds.

I just don’t see in a bout fisticuffs the spartan could even serious hurt the marine via landing blows, let alone win. Marines are able to take an extreme level of damage, and I don’t think a spartan is able to inflict the necessary force to kill a marine using just his fists or found objects. And if we are hoping for a KO situation, marines brains are extremely trauma resistant as the can endure situations that would liquify the brain and other organs of a normal human being, which they demonstrate by withstanding the g-forces imposed on them by their drop pods. In the Eye of Terror novel a chaos marine was dispatched by his battle brother who shot him in the back of his unarmored head with a burst of bolter fire at point-blank range. It took multiple burst to kill the marine with his murderer ironically cursing the difficulty in killing a marine. There are numerous other examples found in novels and other sources depicting what is required to kill a marine and what level of damage they are able of surviving. This may be a bias from playing the halo games, but I am not left with the impressions that spartans are anywhere near that tough.

I feel like this guy did his homework

 Grunt13 wrote:
I only know about the spartans from the games/manuals, what I gleaned from this thread, and researched here:

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_augmentation_procedures

I get the strong impression that the spartans are modified humans; in that they still are basically humans with human cells, organs and basic human biochemistry with some additions bestowed upon them. They weigh in at about 400 pounds and can lift about 1200 pounds. They are stated as having a 300% increase in reflexes compared to normal humans which would seem to me to put them around space marine level (there are numerous examples of marine displaying superhuman reflexes). The one advantage they seem to have over marines is a faster sprinting speed. Marines, while slower when legging it, have demonstrated that they can maintain their top speed for a prolong time without exhaustion (Short story by Gav Thorpe had marines run 40 miles per hour for a half day IIRC). So it might be a slow and steady wins the race unless Spartans are on record for being able to sprint for days on end.

Space marines are basically a different species from humans. They have different cell structures, organs, and chemically composition than normal humans. Their implants are not a limit on their abilities, just what is added to them as they are being turned in to a space marine; every single part of a marine’s biology is distinct from a normal human. They don’t have normal human blood, organs, or cells; they are altered down to the genetic and chemical level - whereas the spartans seem like they are 90 percent human (spartans don’t seem to have super kidneys, stomaches, or immune cells; like the space marines for example - again I haven’t read the halo books so I might be wrong here). I remember reading that marines clock in around 700 pounds unarmored (normal ork boys are 500 pounds according the the Space Marine game manual IIRC). They are able to shrug off what would typically be lethal damage and heal near instantly, clouting over fatal wounds in mere seconds and shrugging off poisons that would kill a elephant. Being able to spit acid might actually be a huge boon in this situation as well; plus the inherited combat instincts and other assorted boons like being able to smell the spartan wouldn’t hurt the marine's odds.

I just don’t see in a bout fisticuffs the spartan could even serious hurt the marine via landing blows, let alone win. Marines are able to take an extreme level of damage, and I don’t think a spartan is able to inflict the necessary force to kill a marine using just his fists or found objects. And if we are hoping for a KO situation, marines brains are extremely trauma resistant as the can endure situations that would liquify the brain and other organs of a normal human being, which they demonstrate by withstanding the g-forces imposed on them by their drop pods. In the Eye of Terror novel a chaos marine was dispatched by his battle brother who shot him in the back of his unarmored head with a burst of bolter fire at point-blank range. It took multiple burst to kill the marine with his murderer ironically cursing the difficulty in killing a marine. There are numerous other examples found in novels and other sources depicting what is required to kill a marine and what level of damage they are able of surviving. This may be a bias from playing the halo games, but I am not left with the impressions that spartans are anywhere near that tough.

/Threaded. The war should end..

 soundwave591 wrote:
Prophet what your forgetting with your analogy, is the improved reaction times of Spartans. I my reactions were 300x faster I'd be fairly confidant that I could take on a tiger fairly easily in all honest. I belive reactions and speed matter,especially in a fist fight thats why I think Spartans would win in a 1v1 with snake Marines


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Prophet what your forgetting with your analogy, is the improved reaction times of Spartans. I my reactions were 300x faster I'd be fairly confidant that I could take on a tiger fairly easily in all honest. I belive reactions and speed matter,especially in a fist fight thats why I think Spartans would win in a 1v1 with snake Marines

See you may survive longer. But do you seriously think youd find a way to kill the tiger? Youd be evading it the entire time and if its claws catch you once. Your practicaly done. Probally the same way for the Spartan and Marine. He can evade but eventually hell get caught.

Prism962 wrote:

 soundwave591 wrote:
Prophet what your forgetting with your analogy, is the improved reaction times of Spartans. I my reactions were 300x faster I'd be fairly confidant that I could take on a tiger fairly easily in all honest. I belive reactions and speed matter,especially in a fist fight thats why I think Spartans would win in a 1v1 with snake Marines


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Prophet what your forgetting with your analogy, is the improved reaction times of Spartans. I my reactions were 300x faster I'd be fairly confidant that I could take on a tiger fairly easily in all honest. I belive reactions and speed matter,especially in a fist fight thats why I think Spartans would win in a 1v1 with snake Marines

See you may survive longer. But do you seriously think youd find a way to kill the tiger? Youd be evading it the entire time and if its claws catch you once. Your practicaly done. Probally the same way for the Spartan and Marine. He can evade but eventually hell get caught.

Exactly. and thats saying if the Spartans reflexes ARE faster than a Marines.

The issue is, we know how fast a spartan is. We do not know how fast a SM is. It seems a bit faster then normal, but as they have not had their nervous system or brains altered to incress speed, they can't be all that faster then normal humans.

Sm are not built for seed, they are built to be in the armor, not outside of it. Power and toughness is what they are built for, speed and reflexes are not even something that was tried to improve upon.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The issue is, we know how fast a spartan is. We do not know how fast a SM is. It seems a bit faster then normal, but as they have not had their nervous system or brains altered to incress speed, they can't be all that faster then normal humans.

Sm are not built for seed, they are built to be in the armor, not outside of it. Power and toughness is what they are built for, speed and reflexes are not even something that was tried to improve upon.

They arent built to be in armor. Theyre built to be killing machines in and out of armor.

To a point,yes. However they have no real improvements on speed or reflexes. Some increases due to over all changes and training, but they are not super fast. It seems most of the "super human speed" has more to do with the common idea that big men must be sluggish.

They are stronger and well trained and were ( as much as any preteen) peak humans to start with. But no, they have no reflex enhancements. They were never meant to need them. The Big E was a bit obsessed with size and power if ya had not noticed.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
To a point,yes. However they have no real improvements on speed or reflexes. Some increases due to over all changes and training, but they are not super fast. It seems most of the "super human speed" has more to do with the common idea that big men must be sluggish.

They are stronger and well trained and were ( as much as any preteen) peak humans to start with. But no, they have no reflex enhancements. They were never meant to need them. The Big E was a bit obsessed with size and power if ya had not noticed.

Space Marines are 100% augmented. There is not a trace part of them that is human. Their blood is actually toxic to normal humans (explained in the Cain series); any normal human tissue in their body would die on contact with it. Every bit of them, ever cell in their body is augmented into something that is no longer human, but vastly superior to human. Their brains are heavily augmented giving them enhanced processing and reactions - it is impossible for a marine to forget anything they ever witness for example (HH Betrayer I believe).

Spartans are established by their wiki as having processing and reaction speeds that is four times that of normal humans. There are many fluff accounts of marines meeting and exceeding this speed. In the book, The Blood Gorgons, a single chaos marine joined a group of chaos humans. IIRC To display his god power he pointed out a group of five combatants in the distance. The combatants then blew up in five thunderous explosions. He drew his gun, single out his targets and put a bolt round in each one; doing all this in a manner that seemed instantaneous to the humans observing him - they didn’t even process him removing his gun from the holster; five armed humans blew up, they looked at the marine to see that he is now holding his boltgun.

The marine also competed against dark eldar wyches and matched their reactions in combat something that is vastly beyond human norm. There are numerous other examples that many people on Dakka can provide showing marines reacting at speeds easily surpassing four times human norm; which again, is the spartan’s reaction level. Often marine actions are cited as being too fast for normal humans to observe like the example in Blood Gorgons, or their eyes seeing impossible fast moving objects in complete darkness (Ultramarine and Space wolf book series had such examples IIRC). In Blood Gorgon it is was stated that their reaction speed seemed like it was precognition - that their reflex speed seemed instantaneous to any non-marine observer.

 Grunt13 wrote:
Their brains are heavily augmented

No they're not.

 Grunt13 wrote:
There are numerous other examples that many people on Dakka can provide showing marines reacting at speeds easily surpassing four times human norm;

And of course, the caveat applies that anything a Marine can do, a Spartan can do faster. Given that they both have enhanced musculature, but only one of them has an enhanced nervous system and brain. Hint: It's not the Marine.

So if a Marine gets super speed from muscle enhancement, so does a Spartan. Then the Spartan gets an extra speed boost on top of that because of his enhanced nerves and brain.

No they are not 100% augmented.( that is kinda silly really as they would not look or ac human in any way at that point). They are however heavily augmented, we have a list. Enhanced reflexes is not on that list.

Sm are all over the place in power, being unstoppable gods in one book and cannon fodder that die by the dozens in another.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Grunt13 wrote:
Their brains are heavily augmented

No they're not.

 Grunt13 wrote:
There are numerous other examples that many people on Dakka can provide showing marines reacting at speeds easily surpassing four times human norm;

And of course, the caveat applies that anything a Marine can do, a Spartan can do faster. Given that they both have enhanced musculature, but only one of them has an enhanced nervous system and brain. Hint: It's not the Marine.

So if a Marine gets super speed from muscle enhancement, so does a Spartan. Then the Spartan gets an extra speed boost on top of that because of his enhanced nerves and brain.

You are being so absurd that i am honestly starting to think you are a troll

Here, he is not. You guys keep saying something with no back up to it. We have a full list of what changes SM's under go and what each and every one does. The Sm do not have any type of enhanced reflexes listed anywhere. No do I recall any brain changes other then his "stay awake" mode.

But he is not supporting what he is saying in anyway. He is simply shooting down what everyone says by saying "wrong"

No one is disagreeing with the spartan augmentations. He is disagreeing with what you guys as saying about SM as you have no proof. Sure fluff says this or that( but even humans in 40k are known to have inhuman speed or int or something), but the list of changes we have says nothing about them having enhanced reflexes.

We know many things that the SM will outdo the spartan in, but speed is not one of them. The Sm have normal human minds(outside a few listed changes) and normal human nervous system. They are well trained and may well be the cream of the crop, but they do not have an enhanced reflex system of any type.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No one is disagreeing with the spartan augmentations. He is disagreeing with what you guys as saying about SM as you have no proof. Sure fluff says this or that( but even humans in 40k are known to have inhuman speed or int or something), but the list of changes we have says nothing about them having enhanced reflexes.

We know many things that the SM will outdo the spartan in, but speed is not one of them. The Sm have normal human minds(outside a few listed changes) and normal human nervous system. They are well trained and may well be the cream of the crop, but they do not have an enhanced reflex system of any type.

But as previously stated. What are reflexes going to do for you when locked in a room with a much larger, more dangerous opponent. You can dodge and counter for only so long.

Kaldor wrote:

 Grunt13 wrote:
Their brains are heavily augmented

No they're not.

If a space marine have normal brains than how can they survive the G - Forces of a drop pod, rest their brain in sections, survive self enduced extended suspended animation, that it impossible for a marine to ever forget something, mentally regulate their biology, or how can a marine gain the knowledge of an opponent by eating their flesh? There is even a short story involving the dark angels hunting a fallen marine only to find that the fallen donated his brain to a human society so they could use it run their entire world. The story obviously emphasized the advanced nature of a marine’s brain. Anyone here remember the story? I believe it was in Inferno.

Kaldor wrote:

 Grunt13 wrote:
There are numerous other examples that many people on Dakka can provide showing marines reacting at speeds easily surpassing four times human norm;

And of course, the caveat applies that anything a Marine can do, a Spartan can do faster. Given that they both have enhanced musculature, but only one of them has an enhanced nervous system and brain. Hint: It's not the Marine.

So if a Marine gets super speed from muscle enhancement, so does a Spartan. Then the Spartan gets an extra speed boost on top of that because of his enhanced nerves and brain.

The spartan reaction speed is on record as being 300% faster than human norm. The spartans are four times faster than regular humans, but many things in 40k exceed that speed significantly. I believe the performances of marines in the novels exceed that rate by moving faster than can be detected by the human eye - which I find to be a bit of a cliche in 40K fluff when describing eldar, tyranids, assassins, and marines actions. If the books say that marines move faster then normal human perception than that’s a measurable account of their reflexes. Plus I really think you are wrong on the marines have normal brains account.

if that guy is moving 3 or 4 times slower then you, has little reach on you and the same level of training you then, they have no advantage either.

Really it comes down to who makes the first mistake. The Spartan is fast enough and strong enough to kill a Sm, just like the Sm is strong and well trained enough to do the same to the spartan.

I always considered Space Marines to be "deceptively quick", in the sense that while they are not the fastest soldiers out there, only a fool would think that the armor slows him down when in the midst of combat.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
I always considered Space Marines to be "deceptively quick", in the sense that while they are not the fastest soldiers out there, only a fool would think that the armor slows him down when in the midst of combat.

That's how I read it as well. They are "Inhumanly" fast like say a pro line backer or running back. Folks tend to think any Big man must be slow, so when they move with speed its a bit mind boggling and simply looks to fast.

 prophet102 wrote:
But he is not supporting what he is saying in anyway. He is simply shooting down what everyone says by saying "wrong"

The burden of proof is, and always is, on the person making the claim.

If I say "I have a rock of unobtanium, believe me." it is my job to prove it, or you are free to say it is not true, by way of lack of evidence.

When someone says "SM have enhanced X" they have to cite their reference, or they can be assumed to have simply made it up.

Man some of the post on here have been blatant fanboys.

I love Spartans. I like Spartans a hell of a lot more than I like Space Marines, im going to give it too Space Marines in the end ONLY because they have better endurance/toughness.

They are both increadibly strong
increadibly fast
extremely tactical
designed to work in teams
highly modified.


The only thing I feel that the Space Marine truelly has on a Spartan is that he can probably take a greater beating than a Spartan can so he can fight longer. When the two sides are increadibly close, this extra toughness allows a Space Marine to make an extra mistake and that can be all he need

 TheCaptain wrote:
The burden of proof is, and always is, on the person making the claim.

If I say "I have a rock of unobtanium, believe me." it is my job to prove it, or you are free to say it is not true, by way of lack of evidence.

When someone says "SM have enhanced X" they have to cite their reference, or they can be assumed to have simply made it up.

I've provided no less than six quotes for Space Marine reaction-time. Kaldor is just ignoring it because he has a history of ignoring fluff that disproves his claims (the Taremar vs. Angron debate for example).

No you proved nothing. You showed a hyperbole quote with no proof. Show us what "enhancement" improves reflexes to 300 or 400 times human norm.

 Kaldor wrote:
And of course, the caveat applies that anything a Marine can do, a Spartan can do faster. Given that they both have enhanced musculature, but only one of them has an enhanced nervous system and brain. Hint: It's not the Marine.

So if a Marine gets super speed from muscle enhancement, so does a Spartan. Then the Spartan gets an extra speed boost on top of that because of his enhanced nerves and brain.

Seriously, look at this guy's train of logic.

"Any feat of a Space Marine's, no matter how impressive, can be done faster by a Spartan, because Spartans are faster than Marines".

Your circular reasoning can't be hidden by fancy wording my friend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I am going to ignore the fluff and cling to my own faulty interpretation of the texts in spite of all logic.

I decided to fix that for you, you seemed confused, your post is a bit more accurate now.

Oh but, remind me, where is a Spartan's reaction-time stated to be 300 times that of a human being's?

Except he has previously showed WHY the Spartan was faster. Nobody has shown why a Marine is faster.

 Still Standing wrote:
Except he has previously showed WHY the Spartan was faster. Nobody has shown why a Marine is faster.

If we go by highest feats, the Marine wins, easily. The microsecond slash is far and away above anything a Spartan has ever done. But numerous other feats, like being too fast for enhanced perceptions and reaction-times to perceive (Prospero Burns), or blocking bullets (The First Heretic), and the like occur fairly often.

No he did not show why he was faster. We have a freaking list of all the changes done to SM and just what they do.(its a large list) Not a single one enhances reflexes. He keeps bring up named and OTT Sm hero and not Joe Average Sm who dies by the dozen to ork hoards. We are not talking Heroes, we are talking Standard Sm vs Standard run of the mill Spartan/

Also I do believe it was brought up a while back the changes to a Spartans nervous system and brain. The SM can out do them in many area's but not this one. Nothing makes the SM faster.

One thing that hasn't been discussed is the Psychotherapy and mental conditioning Marines undergo.

It is possable that these processes give faster reaction times by making the brain more efficient. The human brain doesn't function to its full potential normally, its possable that it can be "fixed" through mental conditioning and not any sort of physical enhancement.

This would account for the massive feats Space Marines are shown to have preformed in the fluff.

The difference is that Spartan reaction times are given a canon level, Marines have not had any similar measurement given. This simply gives us an unknown variable in this department, meaning we can't be sure aside from the descriptions of what marines do.

Given that Marines are shown as being able to bat away bullets and come up with whole strategies in microseconds I would say they are at least as fast as a Spartan.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
No he did not show why he was faster. We have a freaking list of all the changes done to SM and just what they do.(its a large list) Not a single one enhances reflexes. He keeps bring up named and OTT Sm hero and not Joe Average Sm who dies by the dozen to ork hoards. We are not talking Heroes, we are talking Standard Sm vs Standard run of the mill Spartan/

Also I do believe it was brought up a while back the changes to a Spartans nervous system and brain. The SM can out do them in many area's but not this one. Nothing makes the SM faster.

See, I ask because the number I am familiar with is 20 milliseconds for Spartan reaction-time. Which is... 12.5 times faster than average human reaction-time, which is 250 milliseconds. Some humans have been clocked in at less than 150 milliseconds.

Thiel, while heroic, was "only" a Sergeant, and in combat was being driven back and bested by the Word Bearer he was fighting.

Prospero Burns makes it very much explicit that the Space Marines do get enhanced reaction-time and perceptions. Kasper Hauser, just some guy, has them enhanced to superhuman levels when his genes are spliced with that of the Space Wolves'.

there is plenty of evidence for Space Marines having speed above that of normal humans.

I mean really, even for a Space Marine's mass, to accomplish their feats of strength (Pulping a human's head with a punch, shattering ceramite physically, etc), their punches must travel at superhuman velocities, and they don't have to telegraph them nor have a long pause in-between, they can control their strikes' direction and gak.

No mental training is gonna increase them that much. As I said you can not put named SM's from 40k as the standard. You need to look at what the standard grunt SM's can do. And batting away bullets is not something a standard SM does, its things chapter masters or captain do.( which in 40k even a named human character might pull off such a feat to be honest)

Space Marines have enhanced everything, including reflexes and speed. We see example after example of this in the novels, or even in their stat-line over base humans if you want to use the game. Arguing otherwise makes you look like a fool.

Well basic humans (Sisters of Battle Seraphim) gain initiative 4, so that argument doesn't work.

Novels may tell us Marines are fast, but GW never said that. Look at the list of Marine enhancements and show which of them makes a Marine faster...

 Still Standing wrote:
Novels may tell us Marines are fast, but GW never said that.

You know, other than the times their piloting of the Land Speeder is said to be possible only due to their superhuman/inhuman reaction-times.

And BL is just as valid as the codices.

There is also nothing in that list that would grant them eidetic memory, yet they all have it. So where do we draw the line? Do we just use enhancement lists, do we use feats, do we use games?

Also, Kaldor has admitted on multiple occasions to being a troll (starting with his screen name), so any argument with him on its side is automatically weaker. Ad hominem on my part perhaps, but there you have it.

So you can not point to anything( from the list of things we know grant enhancements) what if anything grants them enhanced reflexes. All you have is a quote with "super human reflexes" in at about bikes, non SM use....... Yeah rock solid proof there skippy, I guess those human are just born with all the enhancements poor little Sm have to spend years getting.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
So you can not point to anything( from the list of things we know grant enhancements) what if anything grants them enhanced reflexes. All you have is a quote with "super human reflexes" in at about bikes, non SM use....... Yeah rock solid proof there skippy, I guess those human are just born with all the enhancements poor little Sm have to spend years getting.

It says they (Land Speeders, not bikes, pay attention) are scarcely used by non-Astartes (Scarcely means very rarely, not often, if you were confused), and never by other arms of the Imperium's military.

We are given nothing to make us believe the very few humans who do pilot them do so with nearly the same competence attributed to a Marine. And there are so many variables that the basis of your dismissal of it is faulty. Were they born with Marine enhancements? Obviously not. They could be augmented cyborgs, or psykers who specialize in divination or technopathy, or mutants, or the few limited humans so fething good they have superhuman abilities by virtue of their own awesomeness (Eisenhorn for example).

So you can not show proof other then attack those who disagree with you by being snotty about it.You can not prove it, refuse to show the freaking augmentation that does it( as there is not one) and come off as over defensive jerk when someone points it out.

Until you can point out what gives them the enhancement to Reflexes on the list of augmentations we are done here.

Speed is a function of muscle strength, which Marines have in spades, and it is something their mind has to adapt to (much like the Spartans have to adapt to their new abilities). They also undergo rigorous mental conditioning and training.

You are also ignoring the entire library of 40K background other than an almost 30-year old list of enhancement organs.

But fine, lets treat both universes the same and look at the enhancement lists and ONLY the enhancement lists. The SPARTAN is faster than the Marine; he is also incapable of physically causing enough damage to a Space Marine to knock him out, much less kill him if both are locked naked in an empty room. Much like a Space Marine fighting an Eldar or assassin, eventually the Spartan gets caught and that's all she wrote.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
So you can not point to anything( from the list of things we know grant enhancements) what if anything grants them enhanced reflexes. All you have is a quote with "super human reflexes" in at about bikes, non SM use....... Yeah rock solid proof there skippy, I guess those human are just born with all the enhancements poor little Sm have to spend years getting.

It says they (Land Speeders, not bikes, pay attention) are scarcely used by non-Astartes (Scarcely means very rarely, not often, if you were confused), and never by other arms of the Imperium's military.

We are given nothing to make us believe the very few humans who do pilot them do so with nearly the same competence attributed to a Marine. And there are so many variables that the basis of your dismissal of it is faulty. Were they born with Marine enhancements? Obviously not. They could be augmented cyborgs, or psykers who specialize in divination or technopathy, or mutants, or the few limited humans so fething good they have superhuman abilities by virtue of their own awesomeness (Eisenhorn for example).

Whirlwind tanks are never used outside of the Astartes, doesn't mean it's impossible for a regular human to drive them. Nothing in your quote says that regular humans drive them any worse than Marines, or really says that humans can't drive them with the appropriate training and equipment (pressure suits to counter the g-forces etc). Basically your quote says they are "really really hard to drive". Unless you think they are faster and more maneuverable than a Lightning interceptor?