Hey fellow hobbyist.
So I recently played a 3k vs 3k against a cron foe. Because of the two FOC being used he had 6 full units of deathmarks on the board. This meant that just under half of my nids were marked.
Safe to say I was torn apart. I took my spanking like a good boy but it got me thinking what other cheesy exploits are their out there?
Another I can think of is having a CSM nurgle army with Nurgle allies. Edpimus tally being in play and having Tyhpus use is destroyer hive while bunched together with cultists.
Anyone else got any more examples?
Planned a 2k game against my brothers chaos space marine nurgle army with my tau, I went away and had another look at the allies section because I'm starting eldar again and wanted to know if I could ally them and found they were battle brothers!
So you can imagine my joy when I read that battle brothers could benefit from being friendly units regards psychic powers!!
Scanned the FAQ's for anything that may stop me from doing this and could find nothing! So preceded to add eldrad, 10 dire avengers and a wraithlord to my tau list and went to battle guiding, fortuning and dooming my tau!
...coining the phrase of this game and alliance.
"What's better than some tau cheese? Mixing it up with eldar cheese"
MarkyMark wrote: You cant use eldar psyhic powers on Tau, they are for eldar units only. You can use the BRB powers on battle brothers.
This! +2 Thumbs up for using Eldar with Tau. BTW bring Eldar guardian jetbikes for objective taking instead of dire avengers. Put the farseer on a jetbike in a crisis suit squad.
Yea its always that way. Find something wicked powerful then find out its illegal.
I didnt know you needed permission to take BRB psyker spells, so i swapped my 55pt weirdboy spells for Prescience and kept slapping it on 15 lootas. That crap was HILARIOUSLY broken, then i found out i cant do that
I've always ran my Tau with some Eldar. In a 2k list it can be downright deadly if used correctly.
The only real draw back is the firewarriors.
But that's not really the kinda of exploit I meant. I was thinking along the lines of the Nob look out sir exploit before it got FAQ'd still though smashing stuff.
I love takings Wraithlords, ruins a Crons day anytime. As do Crisis suits if used correctly
Well, there's the case where people disembark troops from a flyer transport without changing the flyer into hover mode. The justification being that you have to choose whether it is hovering or zooming prior to moving, but that you can disembark the troops prior to choosing as somehow the flyer doesn't have a "state" prior to it being chosen for that turn. So disembark troops and then zoom off with the flyer. Bleh
in all w40k history or 6th ed ? in all w40k history I would have to be old armored company . the game was totaly not ready for something like that and they even had a special rule that made them go first before everyone , even D. eldar[who had the same rule , but armored company was FAQ to be better].
in 6th it would probably be barrage sniping, but then again I play IG , so I kind of a like it .
There is absolutely nothing as stupid and donkeycave'ish in the game right now as Warp Quaking a Daemon player on Turn 1. Then combine that with the ability to effectively 'juggle' any 'Misplaced' results so that you can keep rolling on the mishap table in order to get a better result...
5 minute games don't prove you're a better player than me, only that you're a big girl who doesn't have a pair.
As far as loop holes go there is a ton with the aegis defense line, people seem to get the idea that anything behind it gets the 4+ cover save regardless of LOS and that they can freely fire over it without granting cover saves to the enemy. Ive seen many rule book fights over that one.
Drop pods are pretty much the cheesiest thing going, they rob a turn from the enemy, ignore the 50% reserve rule and cherry pick down anywhere they want, its no small wonder all the top tournament players are taking them. Its more of a kick to the balls that its only marines that can take them.
TVIH - incorrect, the flyer rules require the state to be carried over from the previous turn; so if it was zooming previously it is still zooming until you change it to hover
626 - which doesnt work, as you are placing it ina valid deepstrike formation, NOT deepstriking it again. No juggling possible.
Experiment 626 wrote: There is absolutely nothing as stupid and donkeycave'ish in the game right now as Warp Quaking a Daemon player on Turn 1. Then combine that with the ability to effectively 'juggle' any 'Misplaced' results so that you can keep rolling on the mishap table in order to get a better result...
5 minute games don't prove you're a better player than me, only that you're a big girl who doesn't have a pair.
As a cheesy GK scum player myself, even I have to concede and say thats not really possible. Once you mishap into a warp quake the opponent places them. The unit isn't "re-deepstriked" onto the board until you die or go into ongoing reserves.
Put him on the tallest building you can find, then on the first turn opt to leap down to the ground. Assuming he fails the impact test, your army now has Preferred Enemy!
My opponent used space marine combat tactics where he could choose to fail and run over seeminingly EVERYTHING. He deepstrikes and runs. I shoot, he chooses to fail and runs 10"back to his board edge denying me assault, auto-regroups, moves in , shoots, assaults me, fails combat on purpose, run. we measured re moved his unit 6 for walking, 5 for running, and 11 for falling back just to regroup. Each unit was effectively moving 22 inches a turn. That and only he ever got cover saves. Even if neither of our vehicles moved. Very bad game. Not fun at all
conker249 wrote: My opponent used space marine combat tactics where he could choose to fail and run over seeminingly EVERYTHING. He deepstrikes and runs. I shoot, he chooses to fail and runs 10"back to his board edge denying me assault, auto-regroups, moves in , shoots, assaults me, fails combat on purpose, run. we measured re moved his unit 6 for walking, 5 for running, and 11 for falling back just to regroup. Each unit was effectively moving 22 inches a turn. That and only he ever got cover saves. Even if neither of our vehicles moved. Very bad game. Not fun at all
That's not cheese.
That's cheating. You still have to have a morale check to flee with Combat Tactics. You can't just choose to flee. You choose to fail the check.
xttz wrote: There's always the Ethereal Swan Dive...
Put him on the tallest building you can find, then on the first turn opt to leap down to the ground. Assuming he fails the impact test, your army now has Preferred Enemy!
That doesn't work, the codex states the ethereal must die, then all units must pass a LD test. Any that pass get the bonus. 4chan is not the best place to get tactics from.
xttz wrote: There's always the Ethereal Swan Dive...
Put him on the tallest building you can find, then on the first turn opt to leap down to the ground. Assuming he fails the impact test, your army now has Preferred Enemy!
That doesn't work, the codex states the ethereal must die, then all units must pass a LD test. Any that pass get the bonus. 4chan is not the best place to get tactics from.
Experiment 626 wrote: There is absolutely nothing as stupid and donkeycave'ish in the game right now as Warp Quaking a Daemon player on Turn 1. Then combine that with the ability to effectively 'juggle' any 'Misplaced' results so that you can keep rolling on the mishap table in order to get a better result...
5 minute games don't prove you're a better player than me, only that you're a big girl who doesn't have a pair.
Exactly. If you don't want to play a game then why say you do and pull a Warp Quake BS maneuver? You could just have said no thanks and moved on. Even worse when the person finds out you are playing daemons and changes armies before the game just so they can pull this stunt. Yeah real impressive there. All that wins someone in my book is being added to the idiots I won't bother playing anymore list.
Experiment 626 wrote: There is absolutely nothing as stupid and donkeycave'ish in the game right now as Warp Quaking a Daemon player on Turn 1. Then combine that with the ability to effectively 'juggle' any 'Misplaced' results so that you can keep rolling on the mishap table in order to get a better result...
5 minute games don't prove you're a better player than me, only that you're a big girl who doesn't have a pair.
Exactly. If you don't want to play a game then why say you do and pull a Warp Quake BS maneuver? You could just have said no thanks and moved on. Even worse when the person finds out you are playing daemons and changes armies before the game just so they can pull this stunt. Yeah real impressive there. All that wins someone in my book is being added to the idiots I won't bother playing anymore list.
Skriker
People actually do this in LGS play?
I always figured it was mostly relegated to Tournament Lists.
xttz wrote: There's always the Ethereal Swan Dive...
Put him on the tallest building you can find, then on the first turn opt to leap down to the ground. Assuming he fails the impact test, your army now has Preferred Enemy!
Well this exploit is seriously balanced by the fact that only the parts of your army that make their leadership check and don't run away of Preferred Enemy. The rest of your army goes bye-bye...invariably when someone tries something like this they get horribly spanked by it as 90% of their units run off the table due to failing the Ld check. Serves them right too...
I always figured it was mostly relegated to Tournament Lists.
It is actually a lot more common in LGS play than tournies because the warp quake build is more of a one hit wonder and in tournies you usually need much more of a TaC type force instead. No point in tabling a daemon player in 1 turn *if* you end up facing one when you can't do as well against other opponents. In the LGS you *can*, when seeing your opponent is playing daemons, switch lists and pull out the warp quake list for the game and go back to the more balanced list against others.
Fortune+harlequins+Shadowfield is about as cheasy as you can get. I will admit it even though i use it alot. However, the eldar codex has been nerfed to the point of near irreverence so i have to use something....
Either that or running Forgeworld IA11 codex Corsairs, grabbing a Corsair Prince and deepstriking 3 units of Fire Dragons. Cost efficiency? check! (though the Corsair Prince is Wildly overcosted otherwise)
Possibly the Nurgle bomb also. Orks+Demons, use Aura of Decay to kill your own grots to get Epidemius's tally up to max, then run around with 3+ FNP and power weapons that wound on 3+ for nurgle units.
Then the fact that Vehicles can fire Quad guns... WTFGW, that one should have been obvious or FAQd by now.
FW heavy arty went from armor 11 meh artillery to WTF 11 wound T7 artillery.
xttz wrote: There's always the Ethereal Swan Dive...
Put him on the tallest building you can find, then on the first turn opt to leap down to the ground. Assuming he fails the impact test, your army now has Preferred Enemy!
That doesn't work, the codex states the ethereal must die, then all units must pass a LD test. Any that pass get the bonus. 4chan is not the best place to get tactics from.
The majority of your army will pass said LD test.
It works.
Especially if they're embarked in transports, where they automatically pass morale checks (I missed that part). Failing that, stick a Ld9/10 character in the unit.
Cheesiest? That would have to be the old drughead exploit from the previous Dark Eldar Codex. Happy 4th edition with Wyches driving 12'' in a Raider, disembarking 2'', charging a guaranteed 12'' thanks to the drug exploit and then basically just consolidating from combat to combat.
Due to GW having problems writing anything resembling English the text for Combat Drug Dispensers could be read in two ways. The correct one said a squad leader in a druggie squad (wyches, hellions, reavers) didn't get the squad drugs, he could only use his dispenser. At least that had rules to support it as the rules part on how the wargear worked only told us how one model would use it.
The other way made players think said squad leader replaced the whole squad's drugs with the dispenser. Ofc, that required you to ignore the fact there were no actual rules for how it would work. But someone somewhere made up his own house rule on it and it spread through gaming stores here in Finland since so much of the game is learned word-of-mouth and few had seen a deldar codex anyway. You'd have GW employees and other game store clerks tell you the exploit was the actual rules, without any support besides some crappy wording.
Never trusted them since and I've usually been right not to. ;-)
Using Warp Quake as it was intended against the current OTT, beardy, wind-up toy Daemons List that can rip through most armies is being overly cheesy?
Using one or two units as a form of DS defence isn't the problem, what's annoying is the "tactic" of covering the entire board preventing a daemon player from even playing the game.
I always figured it was mostly relegated to Tournament Lists.
It is actually a lot more common in LGS play than tournies because the warp quake build is more of a one hit wonder and in tournies you usually need much more of a TaC type force instead. No point in tabling a daemon player in 1 turn *if* you end up facing one when you can't do as well against other opponents. In the LGS you *can*, when seeing your opponent is playing daemons, switch lists and pull out the warp quake list for the game and go back to the more balanced list against others.
Skriker
Well. That's disgusting. I play to win and all, but I find list tailoring disgusting.
I always figured it was mostly relegated to Tournament Lists.
It is actually a lot more common in LGS play than tournies because the warp quake build is more of a one hit wonder and in tournies you usually need much more of a TaC type force instead. No point in tabling a daemon player in 1 turn *if* you end up facing one when you can't do as well against other opponents. In the LGS you *can*, when seeing your opponent is playing daemons, switch lists and pull out the warp quake list for the game and go back to the more balanced list against others.
Skriker
Well. That's disgusting. I play to win and all, but I find list tailoring disgusting.
This just proves how bad it is.
It's not even list tailoring anymore either...
6th edition rewards GK's for putting more basic Strike Squads on the table because they're reliable, cheap and flexible. Plus, they aren't centered around an expensive or clumsy HQ for unlocking requirements like the fightier Purifyers or more resiliant Pallys are.
Taking a pair of 10 man Strike Squads w/2x Psycannons, MC halberd on the Justicar & psybolt ammo is a pretty solid backbone for any GK build. Add in 5-10 Interceptors for their speed and Daemon players simply cry.
If the GK player goes first, all s/he has to do is simply spread out their units using the max 2" coherency and they can easily lock-off almost the entire table. Hell, a fully spaced 10 man squad casting warp quake creates a roughly 20"x30" bubble of auto-mishap. It's beyond stupid how easily you can ruin a Daemon player's day.
Good luck landing half your army within a tiny little 6"x8" or so bubble...
And hence the problem with how broken Warp Quake is. It's easily spamed and its area of effect is huuuuuuuge! (Note that the Necron's almost identicle ability is limited to only 6" AND isn't something you can have alot of.)
I would hardly call any GK list including 10-20 Strikes and/or 10 Interceptors as list tailoring. That's simply a decent part of many TAC's builds!
xttz wrote: There's always the Ethereal Swan Dive...
Put him on the tallest building you can find, then on the first turn opt to leap down to the ground. Assuming he fails the impact test, your army now has Preferred Enemy!
That doesn't work, the codex states the ethereal must die, then all units must pass a LD test. Any that pass get the bonus. 4chan is not the best place to get tactics from.
It's not any unit that passes, it's any Tau unit that takes the test. Passing isn't a pre-req to gaining Preferred Enemy. The codex even explicitly states that it applies pass or fail.
Of course, units in vehicles don't take the test (per the FAQ), neither do units in combat or who are already running (per the Codex).
And the other drawback is that the Ethereal has at least 2 wounds, so it will take at least two turns for him to die from jumping off buildings.
nosferatu1001 wrote: TVIH - incorrect, the flyer rules require the state to be carried over from the previous turn; so if it was zooming previously it is still zooming until you change it to hover
I'd imagine so, I never have a rulebook in hand when arguing that with those who claim it can be done - I even said that very thing, that the state would be carried over until you choose otherwise, but naaah, he couldn't be convinced. And I never remember to check the rulebook at home either.
CaptainGrey wrote: That's cheating. You still have to have a morale check to flee with Combat Tactics. You can't just choose to flee. You choose to fail the check.
You do in fact choose to fail the check and thus choose to flee (if you had to take the Morale test anyway, CT in fact wouldn't do anything!), in close combat it's the Initiative test that you have to deal with to see if you actually manage to get free or not. No such test for shooting phase tests, obviously.
Also - BoW are notoriously bad for getting rules hideously wrong, so I would take anything they say with a pinch of salt.
As for warp quake with 20 stikes being cheese? Not after the stupid WD update gave daemons the cheesiest army in creation it isnt. One of the least fun armies to play against is any daemon + allied IG (for the bastion quad gun with lord commisar lols) that is using the current "tactic" of spamming the crap out of flamers and screamers. It is absolutely yawn-tastic
One I kind of accidentally found was when I had my arhcon join a squad of Wyches, he was at the very front. With a Shadow Field 2+ invulnerable save. All my buddies firepower was focused on him because he's in the front. Took it like a bawz and advanced across the board to CC. Ended up losing the game though :/ we weren't using cover or anything, we just wanted a quick game.
As for warp quake with 20 stikes being cheese? Not after the stupid WD update gave daemons the cheesiest army in creation it isnt. One of the least fun armies to play against is any daemon + allied IG (for the bastion quad gun with lord commisar lols) that is using the current "tactic" of spamming the crap out of flamers and screamers. It is absolutely yawn-tastic
So what, us Daemon players aren't allowed to have one awsome unit?! You do realise how much our book sucked hardcore all through 5th right?! (even Sisters & Tau were better than us...)
And, it's one thing to face Flamer/Screamer spam. There's plenty of viable counters to it, especially if you've woken up and realised that it's 6th edition!
Derp Quake on the other hand doesn't even let the Daemon player put a single model on the table!
I'd say that wins the cheese fest and the donkeycave of the year award at the same time...
Yes, I am aware of how poor they faired in 5th. That doesnt mean I dont realise how utterly broken flamers and screamers are now. THe damage output potential of 3 flamers, their durability and even their close combat proess is far, fari in excess of what you would expect given their points values.
6th edition has encouraged de-mech, which just makes flamers and screamers better. You realise that, right?
Their alpha strike ability is second to none, with only luck helping the recipient.
Warp quake from 2 strikes and some interceptors, ALL of which are part of a TAC, is not a cheese fest. It is just your army has met the paper to its rock. Your rock is good against every other army out there, barring foot orks and warrior spam crons.
CaptainGrey wrote: That's cheating. You still have to have a morale check to flee with Combat Tactics. You can't just choose to flee. You choose to fail the check.
You do in fact choose to fail the check and thus choose to flee (if you had to take the Morale test anyway, CT in fact wouldn't do anything!), in close combat it's the Initiative test that you have to deal with to see if you actually manage to get free or not. No such test for shooting phase tests, obviously.
Well, you have to be required to take a test before you can choose to fail one. Which isn't hard if you run Combat Squads, however.
nosferatu1001 wrote: No, because you stick one KMB mek in there, and then you can still kill out to 24"
No, because the Burna wounds pool doesn't include the KMB mek's wound pool.
nosferatu1001 wrote: No, because you stick one KMB mek in there, and then you can still kill out to 24"
No, because the Burna wounds pool doesn't include the KMB mek's wound pool.
Which means absolutely nothing - the KMB just has to fire (not even hit) for it to "extend" the range. There's been a few YMDC threads on this if you'd like to read them.
Infreak wrote: One wound pool with different "groupings" based on S, AP & special rules. Range for wound allocation is based on the longest range weapon fired.
That's probably what I was thinking about, then. My bad.
xttz wrote: There's always the Ethereal Swan Dive...
Put him on the tallest building you can find, then on the first turn opt to leap down to the ground. Assuming he fails the impact test, your army now has Preferred Enemy!
That doesn't work, the codex states the ethereal must die, then all units must pass a LD test. Any that pass get the bonus. 4chan is not the best place to get tactics from.
The majority of your army will pass said LD test.
It works.
Wee off topic but how does a LD test work with fearless? (Say attach a IC with fearless (if possible))
I always figured it was mostly relegated to Tournament Lists.
It is actually a lot more common in LGS play than tournies because the warp quake build is more of a one hit wonder and in tournies you usually need much more of a TaC type force instead. No point in tabling a daemon player in 1 turn *if* you end up facing one when you can't do as well against other opponents. In the LGS you *can*, when seeing your opponent is playing daemons, switch lists and pull out the warp quake list for the game and go back to the more balanced list against others.
Skriker
Well. That's disgusting. I play to win and all, but I find list tailoring disgusting.
This just proves how bad it is.
What? Making sure your army is relevant to your expected opponent is the strategy on which your in-game tactics are based. Its not cheesy its an integral part of the game. And funnily enough, grey knights are entirely designed to combat daemons, so it makes sense for them to be good at it. Unfortunately sometimes this leads to a poor game match-up.
xttz wrote: There's always the Ethereal Swan Dive...
Put him on the tallest building you can find, then on the first turn opt to leap down to the ground. Assuming he fails the impact test, your army now has Preferred Enemy!
That doesn't work, the codex states the ethereal must die, then all units must pass a LD test. Any that pass get the bonus. 4chan is not the best place to get tactics from.
Also doesn't help that an Ethereal has two wounds...
I always figured it was mostly relegated to Tournament Lists.
It is actually a lot more common in LGS play than tournies because the warp quake build is more of a one hit wonder and in tournies you usually need much more of a TaC type force instead. No point in tabling a daemon player in 1 turn *if* you end up facing one when you can't do as well against other opponents. In the LGS you *can*, when seeing your opponent is playing daemons, switch lists and pull out the warp quake list for the game and go back to the more balanced list against others.
Skriker
Well. That's disgusting. I play to win and all, but I find list tailoring disgusting.
This just proves how bad it is.
What? Making sure your army is relevant to your expected opponent is the strategy on which your in-game tactics are based. Its not cheesy its an integral part of the game. And funnily enough, grey knights are entirely designed to combat daemons, so it makes sense for them to be good at it. Unfortunately sometimes this leads to a poor game match-up.
not sure if it was a rules exploit or not, but facing a full space wolve drop pod list back in 4th. i deployed tau, he DS in, and killed almost my entire army. my next turn did minimal damage, following turn i was tabled. he did it by dropping pods in a circle right as close as he could. my tau had nowhere to go, and no cover. it was all in all a 20 minute game, with about 9 of those minutes of him deploying his marines once the pods landed.
Umm, I'm guessing that was mostly a deployment issue on your part. You deployed in a way that allowed an opponent to completely encircle you with drop pods and didn't put any models in/behind cover...
I think one of the more cheesy, less exploit tactic is to use the imhotek's lightning in a apoc game, and that c'tan shard cryptec? combo that makes everything difficult dangerous. because i want to slow the crap out of an already slow format.
Desubot wrote: I think one of the more cheesy, less exploit tactic is to use the imhotek's lightning in a apoc game, and that c'tan shard cryptec? combo that makes everything difficult dangerous. because i want to slow the crap out of an already slow format.
Heh, try using the Gets Hot! thingamajig the Warpsmith has on a 50-man Conscript Blob and have them recieve FRF, SRF!. Have fun rolling 150 shots 3 at a time.
Desubot wrote: I think one of the more cheesy, less exploit tactic is to use the imhotek's lightning in a apoc game, and that c'tan shard cryptec? combo that makes everything difficult dangerous. because i want to slow the crap out of an already slow format.
Heh, try using the Gets Hot! thingamajig the Warpsmith has on a 50-man Conscript Blob and have them recieve FRF, SRF!. Have fun rolling 150 shots 3 at a time.
Pretty sure the Warpsmith can only target enemy vehicles with that.
tvih wrote: You do in fact choose to fail the check and thus choose to flee (if you had to take the Morale test anyway, CT in fact wouldn't do anything!), in close combat it's the Initiative test that you have to deal with to see if you actually manage to get free or not. No such test for shooting phase tests, obviously.
Well, you have to be required to take a test before you can choose to fail one. Which isn't hard if you run Combat Squads, however.
Ah yes, true that you do have to "lose" the combat and get the test, indeed. Silly me.
--
And as for the Flamers and Screamers, they're so broken that yeah, you could just sa well consider them "legal exploits." Good luck playing against them with marines that rely on saves when they take your saves away, and even vehicles get wrecked by them effortlessly. A Horde army suffers less from the armor-ignoring nature of the attacks, but still gets annihilated regardless. It's funny when even locally people say the Daemons suck, yet they utterly dominated our local tournament. 12 matches, 11 massacres, one tie (against CronAir). The thing is just because some or even most units in a codex sucks doesn't mean the whole sucks.
And as for the Flamers and Screamers, they're so broken that yeah, you could just sa well consider them "legal exploits." Good luck playing against them with marines that rely on saves when they take your saves away, and even vehicles get wrecked by them effortlessly. A Horde army suffers less from the armor-ignoring nature of the attacks, but still gets annihilated regardless. It's funny when even locally people say the Daemons suck, yet they utterly dominated our local tournament. 12 matches, 11 massacres, one tie (against CronAir). The thing is just because some or even most units in a codex sucks doesn't mean the whole sucks.
And yet, having one or two killer units doesn't make a codex good/OP...
Besides, Flamers/Screamer spam has plenty of viable counters, even with Marines. (and a horde list used properly just laughs at it)
On the other hand, a Daemon player going second against a Derp Quake list is well, 110% screwed.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Also - BoW are notoriously bad for getting rules hideously wrong, so I would take anything they say with a pinch of salt.
As for warp quake with 20 stikes being cheese? Not after the stupid WD update gave daemons the cheesiest army in creation it isnt. One of the least fun armies to play against is any daemon + allied IG (for the bastion quad gun with lord commisar lols) that is using the current "tactic" of spamming the crap out of flamers and screamers. It is absolutely yawn-tastic
I have just as little respect for those playing their daemons that way as I do for the warp quake maneuver. Besides someone who plays their daemons full of extra cheese like that really has no place to get whiny about being warp quaked in the first place. Just a matter of who's cheese wins the day then.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Also - BoW are notoriously bad for getting rules hideously wrong, so I would take anything they say with a pinch of salt.
As for warp quake with 20 stikes being cheese? Not after the stupid WD update gave daemons the cheesiest army in creation it isnt. One of the least fun armies to play against is any daemon + allied IG (for the bastion quad gun with lord commisar lols) that is using the current "tactic" of spamming the crap out of flamers and screamers. It is absolutely yawn-tastic
I have just as little respect for those playing their daemons that way as I do for the warp quake maneuver. Besides someone who plays their daemons full of extra cheese like that really has no place to get whiny about being warp quaked in the first place. Just a matter of who's cheese wins the day then.
Skriker
How many Flamers does it take to qualify as cheese? I generally run 2 units of 6, or 3 units of 4, and one squad of 8-9 Screamers. In the same list I run 4 FMCs (Fateweaver, Bloodthirster, 2x Tzeentch Princes). I've always run Flamers, even back in 5th, just not so many due to how costly they were. I will admit that they are sort of broken, so I would never bring 27 to a game.
If I were playing someone at my FLGS and he pulled out a Warp Quake list I'd let him deploy and if he went first I'd try to seize the initiative. If I were unsuccessful I'd say 'good game' with a large helping of sarcasm and walk away.
Experiment 626 wrote: There is absolutely nothing as stupid and donkeycave'ish in the game right now as Warp Quaking a Daemon player on Turn 1. Then combine that with the ability to effectively 'juggle' any 'Misplaced' results so that you can keep rolling on the mishap table in order to get a better result...
5 minute games don't prove you're a better player than me, only that you're a big girl who doesn't have a pair.
Depends on whether or not you bring multiple units of screamers or flamers to a friendly game, because I wouldn't consider an army with 2 squads of each to be a friends army. Luckily there is only one daemon player in my local group, but out of the area daemon players have been coming to our local tournaments loaded down with max flamers and screamers and it has damn near killed any desire we had to run tournaments.
I have several armies, which usually come with me when I go to game, but if I know I am playing a daemon player I will run my knights, not loaded down with strike and interceptor squads but you can be sure there will be some of them and odds are they will be put into combat squads. To often I have had screamers and flamers hitting my lines hard on turn one. In fact any tournament I go to from now on will include Grey Knight allies.
Desubot wrote: I think one of the more cheesy, less exploit tactic is to use the imhotek's lightning in a apoc game, and that c'tan shard cryptec? combo that makes everything difficult dangerous. because i want to slow the crap out of an already slow format.
Heh, try using the Gets Hot! thingamajig the Warpsmith has on a 50-man Conscript Blob and have them recieve FRF, SRF!. Have fun rolling 150 shots 3 at a time.
Force multipliers are the way to get extreme cheese in this edition.
An example would be anything that lets you 'reroll'. A rerolled 2+ has a 35/36 chance of not getting hurt, which lets you tank nearly every hit without batting an eye.
The most obvious example of this is the fortuned shadow field. There are other examples, however. A wolf guard in terminator armor in a unit of GH who just popped the wolf banner can tank tons of ap3+ hits. Skullcrusher next to fateweaver can tank an entire paladin squads attacks.
Other examples are preferred enemy when you hit/wound on 3s. That increases the chances of hitting/wounding from 66.66% to 77.77% Its a very solid boost. This is even better with PGs, which then go from killing the wielder 1/18 of the time to 1/108 of the time. They also go from wounding 5/6 of the time to wounding 97.22% of the time -- a very nice perk!
Going the other direction works well too. Using a darkshoud to give all your bikes a 2+ cover save is a nice advantage. That's because going from a 3+ save to a 2+ save doubles your durability.
Experiment 626 wrote: There is absolutely nothing as stupid and donkeycave'ish in the game right now as Warp Quaking a Daemon player on Turn 1. Then combine that with the ability to effectively 'juggle' any 'Misplaced' results so that you can keep rolling on the mishap table in order to get a better result...
5 minute games don't prove you're a better player than me, only that you're a big girl who doesn't have a pair.
Depends on whether or not you bring multiple units of screamers or flamers to a friendly game, because I wouldn't consider an army with 2 squads of each to be a friends army. Luckily there is only one daemon player in my local group, but out of the area daemon players have been coming to our local tournaments loaded down with max flamers and screamers and it has damn near killed any desire we had to run tournaments.
I have several armies, which usually come with me when I go to game, but if I know I am playing a daemon player I will run my knights, not loaded down with strike and interceptor squads but you can be sure there will be some of them and odds are they will be put into combat squads. To often I have had screamers and flamers hitting my lines hard on turn one. In fact any tournament I go to from now on will include Grey Knight allies.
Well, would I be a donkeycave if I brought two units of just 4-5 Flamers to a 1500pts game? What about if I brought a unit of 9 Flamers and two units of 3-4 Screamers to a 1750pts or 2000pts game?
Yes, I agree that bringing 27+27 is being a dirty-filthy hobo in friendly games, and if you think you're clever you're not - just a run-o-the-mill WAAC donkeycave who should burn in a car fire. Myself, I've honestly never brought more than 18 Flamers + 9 Screamers to a game. (and that time we were playing 2500pts, so it was hardly being rude) I used Flamers heavily before the WD update, and yes, I even played with two units of 3 Screamers before they became @$$kicking monsters! Flamer/Screamer spam is no worse and just as rude as a 'Cron flying french bakery, or DE Venomspam or Vendetta-spam IG, or any of the other top-level boring spam lists.
But, even though it's a dirtball list, it's still not as bad as being denied the ability to even put your models on the table due to how Warp Quake interacts with the Daemon's forced deployment.
Hence why I think it's much cheesier than playing a boring- spam list. Warp Quake isn't a tactic at all, it's an abuse of a unforseen ineraction between two rules. Warp Quake can easily remove the Deep Strike rule from the game.
Quaking a Daemon player into submission on turn 1 takes no actual thought or strategic planning, just rolling some dice and denying your opponent the chance to even play.
Hence, it's about as low as you can get because you're playing at your opponent, instead of playing with your opponent.
Experiment 626 wrote: There is absolutely nothing as stupid and donkeycave'ish in the game right now as Warp Quaking a Daemon player on Turn 1. Then combine that with the ability to effectively 'juggle' any 'Misplaced' results so that you can keep rolling on the mishap table in order to get a better result...
5 minute games don't prove you're a better player than me, only that you're a big girl who doesn't have a pair.
Depends on whether or not you bring multiple units of screamers or flamers to a friendly game, because I wouldn't consider an army with 2 squads of each to be a friends army. Luckily there is only one daemon player in my local group, but out of the area daemon players have been coming to our local tournaments loaded down with max flamers and screamers and it has damn near killed any desire we had to run tournaments.
I have several armies, which usually come with me when I go to game, but if I know I am playing a daemon player I will run my knights, not loaded down with strike and interceptor squads but you can be sure there will be some of them and odds are they will be put into combat squads. To often I have had screamers and flamers hitting my lines hard on turn one. In fact any tournament I go to from now on will include Grey Knight allies.
Well, would I be a donkeycave if I brought two units of just 4-5 Flamers to a 1500pts game? What about if I brought a unit of 9 Flamers and two units of 3-4 Screamers to a 1750pts or 2000pts game?
Yes, I agree that bringing 27+27 is being a dirty-filthy hobo in friendly games, and if you think you're clever you're not - just a run-o-the-mill WAAC donkeycave who should burn in a car fire. Myself, I've honestly never brought more than 18 Flamers + 9 Screamers to a game. (and that time we were playing 2500pts, so it was hardly being rude) I used Flamers heavily before the WD update, and yes, I even played with two units of 3 Screamers before they became @$$kicking monsters! Flamer/Screamer spam is no worse and just as rude as a 'Cron flying french bakery, or DE Venomspam or Vendetta-spam IG, or any of the other top-level boring spam lists.
But, even though it's a dirtball list, it's still not as bad as being denied the ability to even put your models on the table due to how Warp Quake interacts with the Daemon's forced deployment.
Hence why I think it's much cheesier than playing a boring- spam list. Warp Quake isn't a tactic at all, it's an abuse of a unforseen ineraction between two rules. Warp Quake can easily remove the Deep Strike rule from the game.
Quaking a Daemon player into submission on turn 1 takes no actual thought or strategic planning, just rolling some dice and denying your opponent the chance to even play.
Hence, it's about as low as you can get because you're playing at your opponent, instead of playing with your opponent.
Only problem with quake anti daemon cheese is that the GK player has to go first. An the Vendetta spam isn't nearly as useful as it used to be, are they undercosted yes, but with only 3 shots its just not that effective when people are running mainly foot armies. Daemons will laugh at Vendettas and Crons will just get back up. If you know you are playing daemons and come loaded with 2 full interceptor squads and 2 full strike squads and then hope to go first you are TFG. Having said that I don't like flamers and screamers, yes flamers have always been good now they are damn near game breaking. They are to hard to kill and even 2 or 3 flamers can kill an entire unit of pretty much anything. They need to do something about those units.
I had a player I know once claim that Mephiston's psychic power that makes his Strength a 10 doesn't specify a duration, and so therefore it lasted all game. (When someone claimed that Blessings have a default duration, he counter argued that the power wasn't a Blessing, and couldn't possibly be, since there WERE no Blessings when that codex came out, and it was never errata'd to that effect.)
Hands down cheesiest rules exploit I have seen is the wobbly model exploit. We have a large supply of craters in my local game store, for use when a vehicle explodes. A player once claimed that the book states that you replace an exploded vehicle with the crater, and must put any carried models from the vehicle into the crater. Since models can only be balanced oddly (on each other's bases, or tipped over) with an opponent's permission, he would just refuse to give said permission, insisting that any models which wouldn't fit INSIDE the lip of the crater would be automatically destroyed. (Meaning, in most cases, that you can only place 3-5 models from the transport.)
Jimsolo wrote: I had a player I know once claim that Mephiston's psychic power that makes his Strength a 10 doesn't specify a duration, and so therefore it lasted all game. (When someone claimed that Blessings have a default duration, he counter argued that the power wasn't a Blessing, and couldn't possibly be, since there WERE no Blessings when that codex came out, and it was never errata'd to that effect.)
Hands down cheesiest rules exploit I have seen is the wobbly model exploit. We have a large supply of craters in my local game store, for use when a vehicle explodes. A player once claimed that the book states that you replace an exploded vehicle with the crater, and must put any carried models from the vehicle into the crater. Since models can only be balanced oddly (on each other's bases, or tipped over) with an opponent's permission, he would just refuse to give said permission, insisting that any models which wouldn't fit INSIDE the lip of the crater would be automatically destroyed. (Meaning, in most cases, that you can only place 3-5 models from the transport.)
This sounds more like cheating and less like cheese.
I love that everyone considers Warp Quake the cheese in the GK codex, it only works against one type of player (daemon players who aren't your friends who you'll never play again) and as stated will get crushed in competition, now I don't feel so bad about my thoughts to bring 7 Psycotroke Grenades in Grand Master/Librarian lead squads of 12 storm shield henchmen as troops. I have to say between that and all the cheap twin linked plasma and 2+ cover saves you can implement with a proper dick-player list, I have had a lot of apologizing I have had to do to my Local Play Group for going a little too far in smothering the cheese on a few times at the beginning of 6th just so I could see what it would do.
I remember playing against another GK player and only losing one squad of psykers because my shooting phase was so ridiculous (6 Str 10 ap 1 36" large blasts and Plasma cannons & 36" storm bolters galore) and every squad contained either psycotroke, rad and blind grenades or two Jokero and had a 2+ or 3+ cover or 3++. I also remember a squad of Berzerkers and Karhn jumping out of a Land Raider and then bouncing off a single tech marine with a lucky set of rolls. Those grenades... Never get cocky and try to assault a single GK tech marine with a warding stave, shoot it if you have the chance.
As far as biggest cheese goes, I've thought about combining BA or DA with IG. Librarians with Divination supercharging squadrons Lemann Russ or Librarian rolling Biomancy or Telepathy in a full infantry platoon. Relentless + feel no pain or invisible squad of 50+ guardsmen with 5 heavy and 5 special weapons that can be turbo charged to do decent in CC with the right psychic powers + Commissars & Sgts before issuing orders. We tested a house rule where in 2k+ you could bring allied detachments from two different codexes just once, then promptly decided that it must be at least a 5k Apoc battle. Apoc battles are ridiculous if you adhere to the allied chart from the BRB as well. So many devastating combinations.
Experiment 626 wrote: There is absolutely nothing as stupid and donkeycave'ish in the game right now as Warp Quaking a Daemon player on Turn 1. Then combine that with the ability to effectively 'juggle' any 'Misplaced' results so that you can keep rolling on the mishap table in order to get a better result...
5 minute games don't prove you're a better player than me, only that you're a big girl who doesn't have a pair.
You are not allowed to juggle units like you describe. They are placed not deep stuck again and it has to be a legal position so you only get to misplace them once. You guys have been playing it wrong. Btw, I also play daemons and I've had the following happen before:
warp quake, misplaced my screamers into coteaz's plasma cannon servators, he gets about wound of them because the tails make it impossible to completely be in base to base along with using the plastic clear see through bases (you know the ones I'm talking about). I make about 4 saves, (slightly above average) and lose 2 screamers out of squad of 8. I then turbo boost over coteaz's unit and take out coteaz's servitors + bolter acolytes and put one wound on coteaz despite his 2+ (he was near the front so only had some 3 wounds allocated to him after the rest of his squad died). Got lucky with D3 roll so 6 x 3 = 18 hits and vs T3, I got slightly above average with 12 wounds. As he was behind the aegis, he only got his crappy 5+ armor save since my final position is used to determine if he gets any cover. (we didn't know if you get cover for this but we played it like you did but really didn't matter in the above example)
I love that everyone considers Warp Quake the cheese in the GK codex, it only works against one type of player (not your friends) and as stated will get crushed in competition, now I don't feel so bad about my thoughts to bring 7 Psycotroke Grenades in Grand Master/Librarian lead squads of 12 storm shield henchmen as troops.
How are you getting 7 psycotroke greandes? Most you can possibly have is 2 from HQ's and 3 from techmarines for total of 5. Not quite sure how you wrote the sentence but librarians can't have psychotrope grenades but I'm guessing you meant that the librarian is just along for the ride? Also, only one psychotrope grenade can work. Having several in one squad doesn't do anything for you per the FAQ. Having terminator armored guys with all crusaders works well vs small MSU 5 man units but you can't make sweeping advances so people will get away from you fairly easily and then the squad is vulnerable to small arms fire there after. 3++ vs 3+ armor is the same vs a wall of AP5 bolters.
Also with a librarian and grand master, you can't take coteaz, so how are the crusader henchmen troops? Not sure what you mean by this. Are you guys only playing 2K+ double FOC or something? Everything is pretty much broken at that stage and frankly I've not see any tournament or even local groups really do it anymore cause the game might as well be apoc as nothing is even remotely balanced at that point and we'd all be just playing for LOL's and beer.
I have to say between that and all the cheap twin linked plasma and 2+ cover saves you can implement with a proper dick-player list, I have had a lot of apologizing I have had to do to my Local Play Group for going a little too far in smothering the cheese on a few times at the beginning of 6th just so I could see what it would do.
2+ cover can work for some but you better be clustered into a ruin with great firing points/windows, a techmarine boosting it, and static librarian with stealth all sitting in a fire base wich may or may not have the best firing lanes. This can be totally ruined if say your opponent picked the table half with all the good ruins and is kind of dependent on your terrain make up for your exact table. Also this causes significant bunching up as I'm sure you are aware. The new noise marine spam will eat this alive. Str 8, ap3 ignore cover will eat through dreads/foot marines/vindicare you got hiding back behind the ruins there. It's also fairly suspect vs even the fairly commonly seen heldrake now a days.
I remember playing against another GK player and only losing one squad of psykers because my shooting phase was so ridiculous (6 Str 10 ap 1 36" large blasts and Plasma cannons & 36" storm bolters galore) and every squad contained either psycotroke, rad and blind grenades or two Jokero and had a 2+ or 3+ cover or 3++. I also remember a squad of Berzerkers and Karhn jumping out of a Land Raider and then bouncing off a single tech marine with a lucky set of rolls. Those grenades... Never get cocky and try to assault a single GK tech marine with a warding stave, shoot it if you have the chance.
coteaz with servitors with plasma cannons+ jokaero + acolytes ? (this is like 2k+ double FOC? cause you are over 6 troops now)
crusader squad + grand master/librarian again? (8 foot squads rawr!)
with techmarines in each squad? And a lot of ruins on your table half with all great LOS and all boosted I take it?
I mean this is a pretty good gunline (don't get me wrong cause I've run the same thing before) but you have no mobility to get objectives if they are not in your deployment area. There's no answer for you to get line breaker and ability to respond to 48' guns. Line of sight on some boards will see this get wrecked pretty bad too so it's again fairly dependent on your local terrain make up. Having a giant LOS blocking mountain in the middle of the map makes this list pretty much evaporate if the enemy can close in quickly. Once they drive off one of your buildings, they now get that nice 3+ cover save you nicely bolsterd for them too. (ork shoota boys can also pump out stupid amount of shots, 180 points of boys will shoot 12 henchmen off a building with 3+ cover in one turn, with waaag, I've overran these kinds of units before too even if one or two survive)
Deep striking flamers can also melt alot of these henchmen along with stuff like incinerators, and of course noise marines/heldrakes and probably venom spam too as they can stay at 36' range and poison spam you while you need another 6' to get into range with your guys as nightshields totally gives this kind of list the middle finger as you essentially are immobile since you can't afford to leave your cover.
Experiment 626 wrote: And yet, having one or two killer units doesn't make a codex good/OP...
Besides, Flamers/Screamer spam has plenty of viable counters, even with Marines. (and a horde list used properly just laughs at it)
On the other hand, a Daemon player going second against a Derp Quake list is well, 110% screwed.
A Codex is "OP" if it can be used to make an OP list. Any Codex can make a crap list, but not all can make an OP list. It doesn't necessarily take many overpowered units to make a potentially overpowered army.
Flamer/Screamer spam can't really be properly countered with a proper take-all-comers marine list as far as I can tell as without just about every unit having good invulnerability saves you just flat out die faster than you can kill. And what marine units have those good invulnerability saves? Yeah, TH+SS termies, for C:SM Legion of the Damned... and that's about it. If the map is VERY open and the demon player has bad luck with his deep strikes you might have a small chance, but that's about it, on average you just lose, especially when you have a bunch of flying MCs with rerollable invulnerability saves coming for you when you're desperately trying to deal with the flamers and screamers that are simply twice as fast as you to begin with. As a primarily BT player I don't even have access to Null Zone, which to my limited Psyker knowledge could quite possibly be the best Psyker ability to have against demons (barring some potential GK anti-demon psyker shenanigans I guess, not really familiar with GK), especially lists with the Fateweaver.
Anyway, I'm not saying using Warp Quake like that isn't a slowed stunt to pull though if it works as you describe (I'm not familiar with the ability personally, I've never used a psyker of any sort so far), because it is. But whoever rewrote the Flamers and Screamers pulled an absolutely slowed stunt as well.
Desubot wrote: I think one of the more cheesy, less exploit tactic is to use the imhotek's lightning in a apoc game, and that c'tan shard cryptec? combo that makes everything difficult dangerous. because i want to slow the crap out of an already slow format.
Heh, try using the Gets Hot! thingamajig the Warpsmith has on a 50-man Conscript Blob and have them recieve FRF, SRF!. Have fun rolling 150 shots 3 at a time.
the warpsmith can only use that on vehicles
The APOC rulebook also states that abilities and weapons with 'unlimited' range, or that affect every model on the table should be limited to 72" (pg 37 incase anyone wanted a citation)
Experiment 626 wrote: And yet, having one or two killer units doesn't make a codex good/OP...
Besides, Flamers/Screamer spam has plenty of viable counters, even with Marines. (and a horde list used properly just laughs at it)
On the other hand, a Daemon player going second against a Derp Quake list is well, 110% screwed.
A Codex is "OP" if it can be used to make an OP list. Any Codex can make a crap list, but not all can make an OP list. It doesn't necessarily take many overpowered units to make a potentially overpowered army.
Flamer/Screamer spam can't really be properly countered with a proper take-all-comers marine list as far as I can tell as without just about every unit having good invulnerability saves you just flat out die faster than you can kill. And what marine units have those good invulnerability saves? Yeah, TH+SS termies, for C:SM Legion of the Damned... and that's about it. If the map is VERY open and the demon player has bad luck with his deep strikes you might have a small chance, but that's about it, on average you just lose, especially when you have a bunch of flying MCs with rerollable invulnerability saves coming for you when you're desperately trying to deal with the flamers and screamers that are simply twice as fast as you to begin with. As a primarily BT player I don't even have access to Null Zone, which to my limited Psyker knowledge could quite possibly be the best Psyker ability to have against demons (barring some potential GK anti-demon psyker shenanigans I guess, not really familiar with GK), especially lists with the Fateweaver.
Anyway, I'm not saying using Warp Quake like that isn't a slowed stunt to pull though if it works as you describe (I'm not familiar with the ability personally, I've never used a psyker of any sort so far), because it is. But whoever rewrote the Flamers and Screamers pulled an absolutely slowed stunt as well.
If you're facing 27+27 Flamers/Screamers, Fatey AND a bunch of other FMC's, then you're playing at rediculous pts levels.
And yes, even Templars have answers, despite the age of their codex. Hiding inside your transports for example, while giving up the First Blood point means that all you lose on turn 1 is a bunch of 50'ish pts transports, then pour point-blank range rapid firing goodness into those 5++ saves.
Add a flamer or three to your army instead of always spaming meltas/plasmas. (those make a god-awful mess of freshly landed daemon!)
Bring some Land Speeders. (Heavy bolters + Asscan/Heavy flamer)
Drop Pod down some of your own squads and get the drop on him.
Desubot wrote: I think one of the more cheesy, less exploit tactic is to use the imhotek's lightning in a apoc game, and that c'tan shard cryptec? combo that makes everything difficult dangerous. because i want to slow the crap out of an already slow format.
Heh, try using the Gets Hot! thingamajig the Warpsmith has on a 50-man Conscript Blob and have them recieve FRF, SRF!. Have fun rolling 150 shots 3 at a time.
the warpsmith can only use that on vehicles
The APOC rulebook also states that abilities and weapons with 'unlimited' range, or that affect every model on the table should be limited to 72" (pg 37 incase anyone wanted a citation)
Good to know as i believe it was something like 150k vs 150 on 6 or so tables at the now closing LA bunker. And i just remember folks on stools sleeping and waiting for the necron player to roll for stuff.
And at an end of league mega battle at the san pedro gee dubs on a 6k vs 6k 3 way on a vanguard strike 6 ft by 6 ft table vs at least 2 blood angel jump pack players (they where sad as they ether moved slow or lost a buncha models)
Depending on how you rule it, Mephiston+Yarrick together makes for a pretty funny combo.
@martin All my tanks forever have camo cloaks and they never move from behind their aegis defense line. I'm glad we don't have to pretend we aren't fighting world war I in space anymore.
Experiment 626 wrote: There is absolutely nothing as stupid and donkeycave'ish in the game right now as Warp Quaking a Daemon player on Turn 1. Then combine that with the ability to effectively 'juggle' any 'Misplaced' results so that you can keep rolling on the mishap table in order to get a better result...
5 minute games don't prove you're a better player than me, only that you're a big girl who doesn't have a pair.
You are not allowed to juggle units like you describe. They are placed not deep stuck again and it has to be a legal position so you only get to misplace them once. You guys have been playing it wrong. Btw, I also play daemons and I've had the following happen before:
warp quake, misplaced my screamers into coteaz's plasma cannon servators, he gets about wound of them because the tails make it impossible to completely be in base to base along with using the plastic clear see through bases (you know the ones I'm talking about). I make about 4 saves, (slightly above average) and lose 2 screamers out of squad of 8. I then turbo boost over coteaz's unit and take out coteaz's servitors + bolter acolytes and put one wound on coteaz despite his 2+ (he was near the front so only had some 3 wounds allocated to him after the rest of his squad died). Got lucky with D3 roll so 6 x 3 = 18 hits and vs T3, I got slightly above average with 12 wounds. As he was behind the aegis, he only got his crappy 5+ armor save since my final position is used to determine if he gets any cover. (we didn't know if you get cover for this but we played it like you did but really didn't matter in the above example)
I love that everyone considers Warp Quake the cheese in the GK codex, it only works against one type of player (not your friends) and as stated will get crushed in competition, now I don't feel so bad about my thoughts to bring 7 Psycotroke Grenades in Grand Master/Librarian lead squads of 12 storm shield henchmen as troops.
How are you getting 7 psycotroke greandes? Most you can possibly have is 2 from HQ's and 3 from techmarines for total of 5. Not quite sure how you wrote the sentence but librarians can't have psychotrope grenades but I'm guessing you meant that the librarian is just along for the ride? Also, only one psychotrope grenade can work. Having several in one squad doesn't do anything for you per the FAQ. Having terminator armored guys with all crusaders works well vs small MSU 5 man units but you can't make sweeping advances so people will get away from you fairly easily and then the squad is vulnerable to small arms fire there after. 3++ vs 3+ armor is the same vs a wall of AP5 bolters.
Also with a librarian and grand master, you can't take coteaz, so how are the crusader henchmen troops? Not sure what you mean by this. Are you guys only playing 2K+ double FOC or something? Everything is pretty much broken at that stage and frankly I've not see any tournament or even local groups really do it anymore cause the game might as well be apoc as nothing is even remotely balanced at that point and we'd all be just playing for LOL's and beer.
I have to say between that and all the cheap twin linked plasma and 2+ cover saves you can implement with a proper dick-player list, I have had a lot of apologizing I have had to do to my Local Play Group for going a little too far in smothering the cheese on a few times at the beginning of 6th just so I could see what it would do.
2+ cover can work for some but you better be clustered into a ruin with great firing points/windows, a techmarine boosting it, and static librarian with stealth all sitting in a fire base wich may or may not have the best firing lanes. This can be totally ruined if say your opponent picked the table half with all the good ruins and is kind of dependent on your terrain make up for your exact table. Also this causes significant bunching up as I'm sure you are aware. The new noise marine spam will eat this alive. Str 8, ap3 ignore cover will eat through dreads/foot marines/vindicare you got hiding back behind the ruins there. It's also fairly suspect vs even the fairly commonly seen heldrake now a days.
I remember playing against another GK player and only losing one squad of psykers because my shooting phase was so ridiculous (6 Str 10 ap 1 36" large blasts and Plasma cannons & 36" storm bolters galore) and every squad contained either psycotroke, rad and blind grenades or two Jokero and had a 2+ or 3+ cover or 3++. I also remember a squad of Berzerkers and Karhn jumping out of a Land Raider and then bouncing off a single tech marine with a lucky set of rolls. Those grenades... Never get cocky and try to assault a single GK tech marine with a warding stave, shoot it if you have the chance.
coteaz with servitors with plasma cannons+ jokaero + acolytes ? (this is like 2k+ double FOC? cause you are over 6 troops now)
crusader squad + grand master/librarian again? (8 foot squads rawr!)
with techmarines in each squad? And a lot of ruins on your table half with all great LOS and all boosted I take it?
I mean this is a pretty good gunline (don't get me wrong cause I've run the same thing before) but you have no mobility to get objectives if they are not in your deployment area. There's no answer for you to get line breaker and ability to respond to 48' guns. Line of sight on some boards will see this get wrecked pretty bad too so it's again fairly dependent on your local terrain make up. Having a giant LOS blocking mountain in the middle of the map makes this list pretty much evaporate if the enemy can close in quickly. Once they drive off one of your buildings, they now get that nice 3+ cover save you nicely bolsterd for them too. (ork shoota boys can also pump out stupid amount of shots, 180 points of boys will shoot 12 henchmen off a building with 3+ cover in one turn, with waaag, I've overran these kinds of units before too even if one or two survive)
Deep striking flamers can also melt alot of these henchmen along with stuff like incinerators, and of course noise marines/heldrakes and probably venom spam too as they can stay at 36' range and poison spam you while you need another 6' to get into range with your guys as nightshields totally gives this kind of list the middle finger as you essentially are immobile since you can't afford to leave your cover.
...I think you missed the points I was making:
Okay, this isn't a specific list I am talking about that you can tailor a list to destroy, but the cheese that exists within the GK codex: You can bring 7 Psychotroke grenades in a 2k+ battle and have them each in separate CC units, but I am not going to write that list out here; you can pack a list full of cheap twin-linked plasma cannons in 2+/3+ cover, but I am not going to write that list here. These are examples of the cheese one can dish out if one is so inclined which is what the topic is about. Exploiting the shrouding to grant a 3+ cover save to your land raider which is holding an objective behind a defense line (2+ if you play your objectives/ruins right), that is part of the Librarian/Grand Master Cheese; And with Coteaz and three librarians and 3 tech marines you can deploy your entire army in 2+ cover and it won't be crowded.
Psycannons Galore and Warp Quake are kind of cheesy, but Abaddon and a Squad of Terminators won't kill each other and then bounce off a squad that costs 1/3 their points because of them, a full squad of Necron Sheild Guard won't kill themselves and their lord because of them, Psychotroke grenade can do that (not always, but it happens) the fact that Psychotroke grenades make any squad, no matter how good it is in CC, think twice before assaulting one holding it is why I dub it the King Cheese of the GK codex, sitting high upon the other cheese of the codex, stankier than all others.
xole wrote: Depending on how you rule it, Mephiston+Yarrick together makes for a pretty funny combo.
Rule what? Yarrick can't join Meph...
Why on earth not?
He's Infantry (Unique), not IC. You can never join an IC to a unit that only ever consists of a single model (Battle Brothers or no) unless it also has the IC special rule (i.e. you can't join a Tyranid Prime to a Trygon or Tervigon, but you can attach one to a squad of Carnifexes)... that hasn't changed while I wasn't looking has it, because if so then cheese has been unleashed in 6th edition...
xole wrote: Depending on how you rule it, Mephiston+Yarrick together makes for a pretty funny combo.
Rule what? Yarrick can't join Meph...
Why on earth not?
IC on page 39, BRB. ICs aren't allowed to join vehicles or units that always consist of one model. Mephiston isn't an IC. He's a unit that always consists of one Mephiston.
xole wrote: Depending on how you rule it, Mephiston+Yarrick together makes for a pretty funny combo.
Rule what? Yarrick can't join Meph...
Why on earth not?
As others have pointed out an IC can not join a unit that only ever consists of one model. Meph will only ever be a one model unit.
Yarrick can run around near Meph but that's about it.
xole wrote: Depending on how you rule it, Mephiston+Yarrick together makes for a pretty funny combo.
Rule what? Yarrick can't join Meph...
Why on earth not?
As others have pointed out an IC can not join a unit that only ever consists of one model. Meph will only ever be a one model unit. Yarrick can run around near Meph but that's about it.
Dr. Samuel Johnson is right about Olsen Johnson being right.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Back on the topic of cheese though. I have to say in all of 6th edition, as a GK player whose day can be ruined by anyone who wants to just sneak a Farseer in their army, combined with how many armies they are Battle Brothers with and how potent Divination is and anti-all psykers the Eldar are, I submit that Eldar Allies are the ultimate cheese. I'm okay with playing DE and Orks, or IG and Chaos Daemons or even Tau and Space Marines; but there are certain unspoken rules in my play group and so far we've all stayed away from Eldar allies because it seems rude (I should note that there is an Eldar player in my group and there is a difference between playing Eldar and sticking a base Farseer and rangers in the back of the field just to screw with someone's army. Completely different).
I thank The Dice Gods that at least no allies can ever embark on each other's transport as Firedragons in the Dias of Destruction with a Farseer would have had me sell my other armies to invest in Eldar.
Okay, this isn't a specific list I am talking about that you can tailor a list to destroy, but the cheese that exists within the GK codex: You can bring 7 Psychotroke grenades in a 2k+ battle and have them each in separate CC units, but I am not going to write that list out here; you can pack a list full of cheap twin-linked plasma cannons in 2+/3+ cover, but I am not going to write that list here. These are examples of the cheese one can dish out if one is so inclined which is what the topic is about. Exploiting the shrouding to grant a 3+ cover save to your land raider which is holding an objective behind a defense line (2+ if you play your objectives/ruins right), that is part of the Librarian/Grand Master Cheese; And with Coteaz and three librarians and 3 tech marines you can deploy your entire army in 2+ cover and it won't be crowded.
Psycannons Galore and Warp Quake are kind of cheesy, but Abaddon and a Squad of Terminators won't kill each other and then bounce off a squad that costs 1/3 their points because of them, a full squad of Necron Sheild Guard won't kill themselves and their lord because of them, Psychotroke grenade can do that (not always, but it happens) the fact that Psychotroke grenades make any squad, no matter how good it is in CC, think twice before assaulting one holding it is why I dub it the King Cheese of the GK codex, sitting high upon the other cheese of the codex, stankier than all others.
Technically in a double FOC, you can bring 4+6 so 10 psychotrope grenade slots as that's what techmarines are for.
I'd hardly call those combos even cheesy for plasma in 3+ cover as DA can do it even better in some ways or long fangs and aegis or marines and bolster and allied in DA or wolves priests for divination. Heck, Tau probably does high powered shooting with cover along with eldar allies for divination even better and they can strip your cover with marker lights. I'd hardly call that cheesy at all now a days. 4++ invul land raiders with bolters of banner of devestation is where the new stuff is at. Cover isn't as good as it used to be and GK unfortunately are woefully bad at stripping/denying cover saves to the enemy. CSM with noise marines and heldrakes are far far cheesier now a days.
I honestly can't really give as much credit to psychotrope grenades in 6th now as most people are moving away from assault almost completely due to all the nerfs. They are great devices to have in assault I agree but it only works on the first turn and frankly it's almost overkill to buy that many grenads now a days in the shooty war we're having in the current meta. We're seeing on average even with assault units, about 1-2 assaults occur in a whole game now a days.
I'm sorry, the psyco grenade just can't be the ultimate cheese at least in 6th due to low number of actual assaults now a days, increased reliance on shooting/fliers, and also but not limited to the fact that alot of races now get access to similar ability with telekinesis. It's just not the cheese that it used to be. High str, ignore cover, salvo or stuff like cron-air is rapidly leaving GK behind.
valace2 wrote: Depends on whether or not you bring multiple units of screamers or flamers to a friendly game, because I wouldn't consider an army with 2 squads of each to be a friends army. Luckily there is only one daemon player in my local group, but out of the area daemon players have been coming to our local tournaments loaded down with max flamers and screamers and it has damn near killed any desire we had to run tournaments.
So pretty much any Tzeentch themed daemon list is a cheesy? If I play a single God I will bring multiples of all of the units I can include in the army, because I have to do so to fill out my points. Pretty arbitrary measurment, multiple units of screamers or flamers. 2 units of 5 screamers and 2 units of 4 flamers does not equate to 3 units of 9 flamers and 3 units of 9 screamers to get maximum effect and obnoxiousness. There is a level of inclusion that crosses the line, but just have multiple units of them is not it. I have a massive daemon horde that has 2 of every unit except nurgilings and slaanesh chariots. Only bought one of the chariots to try it out and kind of find the whole "scifi chariot" thing kind of silly. That way I can play combined hordse easily, single god hordes easily, etc. Don't even have 9 flamers of 9 screamers in my collection, let alone multiple units of 9. Think I have 7 flamers (4 metal and 1 new box of plastics) and 8 screamers (1 5 screamer box and 1 new 3 screamer box). So my tzeentch army would have multiple units of both at size 3 and 4 for the Flamers and both size 4 for screamers. Those units are hardly unbalancing or over powered in those configurations at all.
Skriker
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorginak wrote: Back on the topic of cheese though. I have to say in all of 6th edition, as a GK player whose day can be ruined by anyone who wants to just sneak a Farseer in their army, combined with how many armies they are Battle Brothers with and how potent Divination is and anti-all psykers the Eldar are, I submit that Eldar Allies are the ultimate cheese. I'm okay with playing DE and Orks, or IG and Chaos Daemons or even Tau and Space Marines; but there are certain unspoken rules in my play group and so far we've all stayed away from Eldar allies because it seems rude (I should note that there is an Eldar player in my group and there is a difference between playing Eldar and sticking a base Farseer and rangers in the back of the field just to screw with someone's army. Completely different).
Given that the common logic people like to use for as to why Eldar and Dark Eldar are battle brothers (because despite their spiritual differences they are all eldar and no one else is), I personally think that should be their *only* battle brothers level ally since no one else is an eldar they just shouldn't care as much about them. Thus making the eldar psychic allies less useful for the majority of the army. Of course people want their cake and want to eat it too so we get what we get. Eldar allies as you describe bring back too much of the feel of 2nd edition where you fought army X, but it was usually the bare minimum of army X stacked with a craptastic collection of eldar special characters always including a farseer. So that tactic really isn't unique to 6th edition. It just hasn't been doable for multiple versions of the game.
Back on the topic of cheese though. I have to say in all of 6th edition, as a GK player whose day can be ruined by anyone who wants to just sneak a Farseer in their army, combined with how many armies they are Battle Brothers with and how potent Divination is and anti-all psykers the Eldar are, I submit that Eldar Allies are the ultimate cheese. I'm okay with playing DE and Orks, or IG and Chaos Daemons or even Tau and Space Marines; but there are certain unspoken rules in my play group and so far we've all stayed away from Eldar allies because it seems rude (I should note that there is an Eldar player in my group and there is a difference between playing Eldar and sticking a base Farseer and rangers in the back of the field just to screw with someone's army. Completely different).
Sorry if its off topic but i must ask, How is it any different then grey knights allying with IG to over come ALL there weak points? I play dark eldar/eldar allies simply because i have to. The amount of GK's around is ridiculous and as DE we have no psykic defense, so a farseer is the best option by far. Also is it so bad that for once its the GK's getting screwed over? I do it for all the daemons out there!!! Pathfinders make a good backfield Obj unit which dark eldar dont have access to, am i cheese for using them? Am i cheese for having allied halequins with the seer for fortune with a archon w/ shadowfield??? Well, maybe that bit....
But anyway, the biggest cheese i have came across is mordric using FITF with his stormraven, i looked and looked to find if i couldn't and found nothing. Altho it was a team game and my allie had the plasma LRBT :3
Have to agree that it is kind of silly to add psychic powers back to the game and leave some forces high powered in that area and others with absolutely nothing. Though there is still the saving throw available to any unit, so those armies aren't completely unstoppable. It is more problematic for a person who relies heavily on their psychic powers in games to suddenly find them not as useful, than it is for someone who has none and never had to use them to begin with.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Back on the topic of cheese though. I have to say in all of 6th edition, as a GK player whose day can be ruined by anyone who wants to just sneak a Farseer in their army, combined with how many armies they are Battle Brothers with and how potent Divination is and anti-all psykers the Eldar are, I submit that Eldar Allies are the ultimate cheese. I'm okay with playing DE and Orks, or IG and Chaos Daemons or even Tau and Space Marines; but there are certain unspoken rules in my play group and so far we've all stayed away from Eldar allies because it seems rude (I should note that there is an Eldar player in my group and there is a difference between playing Eldar and sticking a base Farseer and rangers in the back of the field just to screw with someone's army. Completely different).
Sorry if its off topic but i must ask, How is it any different then grey knights allying with IG to over come ALL there weak points? I play dark eldar/eldar allies simply because i have to. The amount of GK's around is ridiculous and as DE we have no psykic defense, so a farseer is the best option by far. Also is it so bad that for once its the GK's getting screwed over? I do it for all the daemons out there!!! Pathfinders make a good backfield Obj unit which dark eldar dont have access to, am i cheese for using them? Am i cheese for having allied halequins with the seer for fortune with a archon w/ shadowfield??? Well, maybe that bit....
But anyway, the biggest cheese i have came across is mordric using FITF with his stormraven, i looked and looked to find if i couldn't and found nothing. Altho it was a team game and my allie had the plasma LRBT :3
Ya FITF, its a very poorly worded rule and I'm not getting into it here as the last time it got brought up the topic got shut down (Though I don't consider it any worse than a proper drop pod assault).
If someone is Allying GK and IG against your DE and Eldar and you are actually using your Eldar, I'd be okay with that. My problem is when people just stick a base Farseer in the back of the map and has no other purpose other than to mess with psychic powers (Ahriman gets it the worst, I've seen him try to overcome the psychic wall and die from perils twice). I'll ignore the blatant GK hatred as I am sure it is bitterness from not maximizing your night shields and disintegrator cannons. My friends and I sometimes use each other's armies to battle with to try to gain a deeper understanding of the armies and I don't recall ever seeing my Knights pummeled as hard as when I played DE against them and brought 14 disintegrator cannons and 10 dark lances.
Also, the great thing about 6th is every unit gets to deny the witch. An army with Psychic might can be oppressive but it isn't unstoppable, but having a single model that can invalidate at least one special rule from every unit in a codex is why I call Eldar Allies Cheese.
valace2 wrote: Depends on whether or not you bring multiple units of screamers or flamers to a friendly game, because I wouldn't consider an army with 2 squads of each to be a friends army. Luckily there is only one daemon player in my local group, but out of the area daemon players have been coming to our local tournaments loaded down with max flamers and screamers and it has damn near killed any desire we had to run tournaments.
So pretty much any Tzeentch themed daemon list is a cheesy? If I play a single God I will bring multiples of all of the units I can include in the army, because I have to do so to fill out my points. Pretty arbitrary measurment, multiple units of screamers or flamers. 2 units of 5 screamers and 2 units of 4 flamers does not equate to 3 units of 9 flamers and 3 units of 9 screamers to get maximum effect and obnoxiousness. There is a level of inclusion that crosses the line, but just have multiple units of them is not it. I have a massive daemon horde that has 2 of every unit except nurgilings and slaanesh chariots. Only bought one of the chariots to try it out and kind of find the whole "scifi chariot" thing kind of silly. That way I can play combined hordse easily, single god hordes easily, etc. Don't even have 9 flamers of 9 screamers in my collection, let alone multiple units of 9. Think I have 7 flamers (4 metal and 1 new box of plastics) and 8 screamers (1 5 screamer box and 1 new 3 screamer box). So my tzeentch army would have multiple units of both at size 3 and 4 for the Flamers and both size 4 for screamers. Those units are hardly unbalancing or over powered in those configurations at all.
Skriker
+1
As a Tzeentch player myself, I find it somewhat insulting that I'd be labeled as 'cheesey' just because I have multiple units of Flamers/Screamers. What the heck else am I supposed to take to make-up my pts?!
My own personal rule is that I never include more than 9 of each per full 1000pts I'm playing, except in strait 1000pts or under games at which point I'll limit myself to no more than 9 combined. (because they are difficult to deal with)
Is that really cheesey to have a list with say 2 units of 4 Flamers + a unit of 6 Screamers at 1500pts? (Or are Daemon players simply not allowed to compete with other 'hard' lists because we single handedly ruined Fantasy?)
Mind you, I've had a local GK player whine that even taking a single unit of 3 Flamers is OP.
SlaveToDorkness wrote: There are plenty of armies where that single model does exactly nothing against as we'll though...
The bad thing about 6th is there is very little to stop buff powers from going off now. Which is the majority of GK abilities.
How is that any different than 5th? At least now every unit can deny the witch while before you had to have your psychic hood moving around the field to be in a 24" zone that in my opinion never should have been able to cancel out buffs to your own squad. By that standard every army that didn't have a librarian was completely screwed in 5th. The reason they weren't is that Psychic powers are powerful, but they won't win you the game. Now every army has some special rules or powers that are similar and even if they don't get a piece of that pie they have a means of countering it via deny the witch, and even DE have a character that is anti-psychers as I am sure the new Tau codex will get one too.
This topic is about cheese and exploits, all I am saying is that sticking a single model in an army when you know you are going against a Psyker army just to cancel their powers out isn't tactics, its cheese and I will be very surprised if that power isn't nerfed with the new codex. Its like the Necron dex just before the new one came out, the ability to "we'll be back" your units on a 4+ twice in a turn was cheese. GK power weapons in 5th was a bit OP, but then so were all power weapons and 6th took care of that. The only things I consider true cheese are things that combat by invalidating rules and stat lines not tactical precision, that's why I rule Psychotroke grenades cheese.
Sorginak wrote: I love that everyone considers Warp Quake the cheese in the GK codex, it only works against one type of player (daemon players who aren't your friends who you'll never play again) and as stated will get crushed in competition, now I don't feel so bad about my thoughts to bring 7 Psycotroke Grenades in Grand Master/Librarian lead squads of 12 storm shield henchmen as troops. I have to say between that and all the cheap twin linked plasma and 2+ cover saves you can implement with a proper dick-player list, I have had a lot of apologizing I have had to do to my Local Play Group for going a little too far in smothering the cheese on a few times at the beginning of 6th just so I could see what it would do.
Wait, Warp Quake only affects Deepstriking Deamons?
I had someone tell me It affecting all deepstrikers.even drop pods. That rule allowed his Tau to stay alive.
*Quote* Mind you, I've had a local GK player whine that even taking a single unit of 3 Flamers is OP. *Quote*
There is only one answer to this, punch him in the throat!
There isnt a single army that resolves around psykic powers (MAYBE with the exception of tyranids, but they so screwed already this wont make much of a difference ) and if you MAKE an army that resolves around it you should be subjected to the same problem as every other army built around one thing. Rock Paper Bolter. So no, having a farseer is the ONLY good defense many xenos can get. Just because its effective for tau to have a seer to divination there shooting and for jet bikes to scoot around at the end doesnt mean its cheesey. Or one could say its cheesey for all grey knights to have a force weapon at AP 3 at least on ALL there units. Just because its effective (sorry for the grey knight hate but when i try to come up with examples they are always first to mind) Cheesey is blantently ignoring RAI/fluff to get a winning army. For example i will be cheesey as soon as i finish my halequin unit with shadowseer, farseer and archon, but not a moment before!!
But back to my point, any army that relies heavily on one thing carnt moan when they meet a thing that takes it from under them.
*Rant off*
The person who plays the mordric thing is very persauding with the store manager when it was brought to him, so he ruled it in his favour, dam puppy dog eyes! But if that isn't legal then id have to go with my plan for a unit with a re-rollable 2++ shadowfield at the frount, at least a 4+ re-rollable cover, 3 str 8 pistols, rending (here come the 's!) and a bucketload of attacks. GO GO GADGET DEATHSTAR!!!!
Sorginak wrote: I love that everyone considers Warp Quake the cheese in the GK codex, it only works against one type of player (daemon players who aren't your friends who you'll never play again) and as stated will get crushed in competition, now I don't feel so bad about my thoughts to bring 7 Psycotroke Grenades in Grand Master/Librarian lead squads of 12 storm shield henchmen as troops. I have to say between that and all the cheap twin linked plasma and 2+ cover saves you can implement with a proper dick-player list, I have had a lot of apologizing I have had to do to my Local Play Group for going a little too far in smothering the cheese on a few times at the beginning of 6th just so I could see what it would do.
Wait, Warp Quake only affects Deepstriking Deamons?
I had someone tell me It affecting all deepstrikers.even drop pods. That rule allowed his Tau to stay alive.
They were correct. Warp Quake works on any Deep Striking unit.
Sorginak wrote: I love that everyone considers Warp Quake the cheese in the GK codex, it only works against one type of player (daemon players who aren't your friends who you'll never play again) and as stated will get crushed in competition, now I don't feel so bad about my thoughts to bring 7 Psycotroke Grenades in Grand Master/Librarian lead squads of 12 storm shield henchmen as troops. I have to say between that and all the cheap twin linked plasma and 2+ cover saves you can implement with a proper dick-player list, I have had a lot of apologizing I have had to do to my Local Play Group for going a little too far in smothering the cheese on a few times at the beginning of 6th just so I could see what it would do.
Wait, Warp Quake only affects Deepstriking Deamons?
I had someone tell me It affecting all deepstrikers.even drop pods. That rule allowed his Tau to stay alive.
No, it works on everyone, it's just that Daemon players can't comprehend that it screws Drop Pod lists over too.
Sorginak wrote: I love that everyone considers Warp Quake the cheese in the GK codex, it only works against one type of player (daemon players who aren't your friends who you'll never play again) and as stated will get crushed in competition, now I don't feel so bad about my thoughts to bring 7 Psycotroke Grenades in Grand Master/Librarian lead squads of 12 storm shield henchmen as troops. I have to say between that and all the cheap twin linked plasma and 2+ cover saves you can implement with a proper dick-player list, I have had a lot of apologizing I have had to do to my Local Play Group for going a little too far in smothering the cheese on a few times at the beginning of 6th just so I could see what it would do.
Wait, Warp Quake only affects Deepstriking Deamons? I had someone tell me It affecting all deepstrikers.even drop pods. That rule allowed his Tau to stay alive.
No, it works on everyone, it's just that Daemon players can't comprehend that it screws Drop Pod lists over too.
I meant that that tactic only screws over Deamon armies as they are the only one who have to rely on Deep Strike, and anyone who would use that tactic as their entire army base against daemons is basically saying "I don't feel like battling right now but check out my GK models" which should not be the point of battling and I guess I just don't consider it that cheesy because I would never do it and I never met anyone who has or would. I suppose if I had invested in a Drop Pod based army I would be upset about Warp Quake as well.
If you want to tank something with your archon, the best bet is Wraithguard, since you've got that sweet majority T6 to reduce the number of 2++ saves you have to make.
One that had particularly irked me was at the tail end of 5th, BA Baal predators popping smoke in their scout move, shooting in their turn and claiming a cover save in the opponents turn due to the wording of an FAQ change in the last year or so of 5E's life.
Needless to say, I avoided giving games to players trying that for the rest of the edition.
Come to think of it, most of my really memorable unpleasant games have been games against Blood Angels.
Sorginak wrote: I love that everyone considers Warp Quake the cheese in the GK codex, it only works against one type of player (daemon players who aren't your friends who you'll never play again) and as stated will get crushed in competition, now I don't feel so bad about my thoughts to bring 7 Psycotroke Grenades in Grand Master/Librarian lead squads of 12 storm shield henchmen as troops. I have to say between that and all the cheap twin linked plasma and 2+ cover saves you can implement with a proper dick-player list, I have had a lot of apologizing I have had to do to my Local Play Group for going a little too far in smothering the cheese on a few times at the beginning of 6th just so I could see what it would do.
Wait, Warp Quake only affects Deepstriking Deamons?
I had someone tell me It affecting all deepstrikers.even drop pods. That rule allowed his Tau to stay alive.
No, it works on everyone, it's just that Daemon players can't comprehend that it screws Drop Pod lists over too.
Or maybe, we Daemon players are so much more furious about Warp Quake because we can't get out of our pods and walk onto the table/deploy normally!
When your army is forced to Deep Strike 100% of the time, a unit ability that can be taken up to 9 times and prevents you from even putting a single model on the table does tend to cause some well deserved butthurt.
No one else in the entire game is so royally screwed over by any other rule as Daemons are by Warp Quake.
Sure you can get GK players upset by taking a Farseer, or Tyranid players bemoaning army-wide force weapons, or MEQ's decrying plasma spam, etc... But at least you still get to try and compete.
For Daemon players, going against Warp Quake simply comes down to "win first turn or don't bother playing."
Experiment 626 wrote: If you're facing 27+27 Flamers/Screamers, Fatey AND a bunch of other FMC's, then you're playing at rediculous pts levels.
And yes, even Templars have answers, despite the age of their codex. Hiding inside your transports for example, while giving up the First Blood point means that all you lose on turn 1 is a bunch of 50'ish pts transports, then pour point-blank range rapid firing goodness into those 5++ saves.
Add a flamer or three to your army instead of always spaming meltas/plasmas. (those make a god-awful mess of freshly landed daemon!)
Bring some Land Speeders. (Heavy bolters + Asscan/Heavy flamer)
Drop Pod down some of your own squads and get the drop on him.
It's not easy, but it's doable.
I wasn't playing against 27+27, in fact he didn't have any screamers at all in that particular list. But basically he could've taken nothing but 27 flamers (he didn't have that many of those either) and he very well might've won with just those against my 1850pt list which in the meanwhile would've been able to fight at least stalemate against most other lists in the tournament, barring of course the CronAir player and possibly the DA (the new dex had just come out). Which just shows why I'm saying what I'm saying, you don't necessarily need a codex full of cheesy units to make it completely unbalanced if using the few units that indeed are over the top for their price.
Adding flamers of my own could indeed work to some limited degree against the non-FMC units, but it's not like I could even take more than one per unit, and then against MEq they'd be quite lackluster compared to plasma or melta. But since both Flamers and Screamers move 12" and I cant, they can just land out of range on turn 1 even if I had a larger amount of flamer units, and then jump in and flame me into oblivion on the next turn, rendering my flamers useless. Assuming they don't just land in range and then outright kill my flamers, which given that player's style would be more likely.
Land Speeders I had, although Typhoons. But little good does it do when two out of four die on turn 1 when Flamers land next to them and wreck them then and there. I'm very loathe to put things in reserve, because with my dice rolling they tend to show up in turn 4 when it's already too damn late.
Drop pods? Well, that only works if the demon player goes first. Which in this case he did because I won the roll and I didn't see a point in wasting a turn by going first against an empty table. But in general there's only a 50% chance of getting to go second. And drop podding against an empty table... well, that's not very helpful. I do plan on using drop pods more once I can be arsed to properly assemble all three of them, but regardless they're a questionable solution to this particular problem.
Overall a TACBT list just can't really do it without some extreme luck. Not even against a list that's reasonable compared to a 27+27 list. I mean really, if even CronAir - that flamers/screamers can't even hit at first! - gets massacred by the demons (guess why he has those FMCs in his list!) and I get massacred by CronAir, it's saying something. With a C:SM Null Zone list I might be able to at least hold on for longer, but beyond that... who knows.
And it's funny that it all gets attributed to the player's skill rather than playing demons. Yet when I played his Khorne list with my mostly-CC orks (my shooty things being a single Dakkajet, three Deffkoptas and 10 lootas which I had to take to meet the 1000pt limit), whereas he had 2 FMCs and a Soul Grinder and then mostly Khorne Bloodletters) it was a draw, and again playing his gunline IG against my C:SM it was a 4-3 score, with him getting that one extra point from first blood because he got to go first. So yeah, clearly nothing to do with the Codex at all. Not saying he's not a good player, because he is, certainly better than I am, but given the balance variations and even the very considerable effect of luck of the dice the latter two usually play a bigger role combined than player skill as long as the opponent is at least reasonably competent.
Experiment 626 wrote: For Daemon players, going against Warp Quake simply comes down to "win first turn or don't bother playing."
Why do daemon players keep repeating this lie?
Though most of the Daemon player whining is just that. For Warp Quake to actually "screw daemons over completely", the list needs to be specifically written to do it. While 6e has moved GK to Strike lists, Warp Quake doesn't cover Daemon players deployment zone at all, unless GK player has brought Interceptors . And even in that case, GK player must succeed in at least critical 4 psychic tests per turn (~50% chance of failure per turn) or the board will have more than enough room for to Deep Strike. And no Mishap results may result in "Misplaced", because whole.
So in the end, this "automatic win tactic" results in Daemon player being unable to deploy any forces works probably somewhere around 10% time. Now, if your opponent actually makes a list that will lose to everyone else and brings 30 Interceptors and 30 Strikes, chances are higher. But considering that Flamer/Screamer spam has far higher chances of winning against most TAC-lists than this. And quite few "anti-flamer/screamer" lists that aren't based on using Warp Quake too.
So using Flamer/Screamer spam against TAC lists is far worse than "normal" (Max 10 interceptors) levels of Warp Quake against any Daemon player.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No, it works on everyone, it's just that Daemon players can't comprehend that it screws Drop Pod lists over too.
Well the difference being that daemons can "only" deep strike while armies that use drop pods don't *have* to use drop pods in every game so you don't see people relying on warp quake as consistently against non-daemon armies. Yes it will affect them, but you seldom see the TFGGK player immediately switching lists when someone says they are playing Space Wolves which *could* have drop pods like they do when they say they find out their opponent is playing daemons.
Experiment 626 wrote: For Daemon players, going against Warp Quake simply comes down to "win first turn or don't bother playing."
Why do daemon players keep repeating this lie?
Though most of the Daemon player whining is just that. For Warp Quake to actually "screw daemons over completely", the list needs to be specifically written to do it. While 6e has moved GK to Strike lists, Warp Quake doesn't cover Daemon players deployment zone at all, unless GK player has brought Interceptors . And even in that case, GK player must succeed in at least critical 4 psychic tests per turn (~50% chance of failure per turn) or the board will have more than enough room for to Deep Strike. And no Mishap results may result in "Misplaced", because whole.
So in the end, this "automatic win tactic" results in Daemon player being unable to deploy any forces works probably somewhere around 10% time. Now, if your opponent actually makes a list that will lose to everyone else and brings 30 Interceptors and 30 Strikes, chances are higher. But considering that Flamer/Screamer spam has far higher chances of winning against most TAC-lists than this. And quite few "anti-flamer/screamer" lists that aren't based on using Warp Quake too.
So using Flamer/Screamer spam against TAC lists is far worse than "normal" (Max 10 interceptors) levels of Warp Quake against any Daemon player.
"Normal" levels of Warp Quake are pretty easy to deal with honestly. I've been playing Daemons for about two years now, and in all that time I've never played a GK player that had more than one or two units capable of using Warp Quake. In all that time, with and without Flamers I've never come closer to losing than one draw. Every other game was a win for me. I think this is more due to Daemons as a rule doing well against MEQ armies. The Meta I play in doesn't run towards lots of Warp Quake, or even players that will list tailor based on what army I'm playing.
As far as Flamers and Screamers go, where is the line between using a good unit, and cheesy spamming of that unit? If the rest of the codex is lackluster (and most of it is) how can you reasonably expect a Daemon player to avoid using the few units that are good?
If any of you remember 4th you'll remember pod armies were difficult for a lot of people to deal with, there were a few other builds that could weather them (nidzilla, Immortal falcon eldar, fish of fury tau) but they are all dead now. In 5th you could deal with them and put your entire army in reserve and negate aspects of it, but now in 6th you are forced to put 50% of your forces down unless you're marines in drop pods or daemons. add in the fact that reserves is now 3+ on turn 2 and you've got yourself a problem.
It was after I saw two players in an elimination tournament pretty much rocking the same drop pod army, the old woes have come back, and this time around there isnt much that can deal with them.
In case you guys didnt know about drop pod tactics here's a quick run through:
-You always want to go second, it eliminates a turn of offense of your opponent while you still get a full game turn of offense.
- Cherry picking, essentially you choose where the battle takes place.
-Vulkan, makes your meltas and flamers twin linked, even with snap shots you have a higher chance to kill stuff, even fliers!
undertow wrote: "Normal" levels of Warp Quake are pretty easy to deal with honestly. I've been playing Daemons for about two years now, and in all that time I've never played a GK player that had more than one or two units capable of using Warp Quake. In all that time, with and without Flamers I've never come closer to losing than one draw. Every other game was a win for me. I think this is more due to Daemons as a rule doing well against MEQ armies. The Meta I play in doesn't run towards lots of Warp Quake, or even players that will list tailor based on what army I'm playing.
Good for you that you don't have to deal with the jerky GK player who has his "warp quake list" set aside only for those daemons players who he games against. What you describe sounds like a balanced GK force that isn't designed to spam warp quake specifically. The issue isn't specifically with warp quake, so much as it is about the players who think it is cool to have a separate list that uses it significantly to screw over daemons players. TFG list tailoring is the real culprit here. List tailoring in any game is irritating. We generally have one culprit like that in our Flames of War league. Most of us show up with lists to play for the day, or lists for 2 different forces to play for the day, but he waits to make his army until he is there and sees what he will be facing. Some of us play 2 armies now specifically because he will watch us in one game, challange us for the next game and tailor his force to beat the one we just played, so we just swap out forces before the game with him and he gets really upset. Always most fun when he gears up to deal with your armor and you play your infantry force instead and he has little to know artillery or weaponry geared to blowing infantry out of their foxholes or assaulting infantry in cover.
Skriker
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Guardslayer wrote: How about you go to a 2000 point tournament only to deal with that guy who has 12 full IG squads and 3 basalisks
What is cheesy about that? I love guard armies that are full of troops as opposed to guard armies that have almost no actually boots on the groun in favor of lots of army and vendettas.
undertow wrote: "Normal" levels of Warp Quake are pretty easy to deal with honestly. I've been playing Daemons for about two years now, and in all that time I've never played a GK player that had more than one or two units capable of using Warp Quake. In all that time, with and without Flamers I've never come closer to losing than one draw. Every other game was a win for me. I think this is more due to Daemons as a rule doing well against MEQ armies. The Meta I play in doesn't run towards lots of Warp Quake, or even players that will list tailor based on what army I'm playing.
Good for you that you don't have to deal with the jerky GK player who has his "warp quake list" set aside only for those daemons players who he games against. What you describe sounds like a balanced GK force that isn't designed to spam warp quake specifically. The issue isn't specifically with warp quake, so much as it is about the players who think it is cool to have a separate list that uses it significantly to screw over daemons players. TFG list tailoring is the real culprit here. List tailoring in any game is irritating. We generally have one culprit like that in our Flames of War league. Most of us show up with lists to play for the day, or lists for 2 different forces to play for the day, but he waits to make his army until he is there and sees what he will be facing. Some of us play 2 armies now specifically because he will watch us in one game, challange us for the next game and tailor his force to beat the one we just played, so we just swap out forces before the game with him and he gets really upset. Always most fun when he gears up to deal with your armor and you play your infantry force instead and he has little to know artillery or weaponry geared to blowing infantry out of their foxholes or assaulting infantry in cover.
Skriker
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Guardslayer wrote: How about you go to a 2000 point tournament only to deal with that guy who has 12 full IG squads and 3 basalisks
What is cheesy about that? I love guard armies that are full of troops as opposed to guard armies that have almost no actually boots on the groun in favor of lots of army and vendettas.
Skriker
To add to the list of misery...
How about all those netlisters who troll along for power lists and then end up with TAC's lists looking like;
Coteaz
3x Henchmen groups of Acolytes/Banishers
3x 10 man Strikes
2x 10 man 'Ceptors
3x Pysfleman dreads
6x Psybacks
It's a TAC's list that no Daemon army has a hope in hell of ever beating unless you go first and can wipe-out pretty much anything that's not in a transport. (when it shoots back, it's not pretty just how fast those daemons die.)
You don't *need* to list taylor to screw over Daemon players. (although plenty of GK donkeycaves do list tailor when they see Daemons)
Just take 20+ Strikes with at least 10 'Ceptors and go first... Makes every Daemon player cry, and works wonders alongside a mainly Termie list since it brings numbers.
How about all those netlisters who troll along for power lists and then end up with TAC's lists looking like;
Coteaz
3x Henchmen groups of Acolytes/Banishers
3x 10 man Strikes
2x 10 man 'Ceptors
3x Pysfleman dreads
6x Psybacks
It's a TAC's list that no Daemon army has a hope in hell of ever beating unless you go first and can wipe-out pretty much anything that's not in a transport. (when it shoots back, it's not pretty just how fast those daemons die.)
You don't *need* to list taylor to screw over Daemon players. (although plenty of GK donkeycaves do list tailor when they see Daemons)
Just take 20+ Strikes with at least 10 'Ceptors and go first... Makes every Daemon player cry, and works wonders alongside a mainly Termie list since it brings numbers.
I've never played against a list like that, or even seen one played, but I do understand that metas can differ from area to area.
The local Battle Bunker in Seattle hosts a monthly 40k tournament, and I have seen a guy show up with a GK list that has a few squads of Strikes / Interceptors. He usually seems to finish in the middle to lower part of the spectrum. In a tournament environment I may run up against him and lose if I don't go first, but against most other MEQ armies (including GK) Daemons are usually the rock to their scissors.
Every army has their Achilles Heel. Ours happens to be a specific, not very popular list from one army. In a tournament you take what you get and make the best of it, but in friendly play (in my area at least) if your opponent is interested in actually playing a game with you instead of just dicing to see who goes first and stopping there, you shouldn't see that too much.
i know it's a specific example, but there's a douche daemons player at my local venue who has won the past 3 combat patrols running a 5-man troop choice and nothing but flamers for 500pts. i think he takes the cake for infinite cheese. of course, he finally gets nerfed after the new rules for it... I swear it pretty much only affects him.
Oh my days, just reading this thread has made me want a GK or a Daemon army! So much banter to be had!
Oh, some cheese, me and an old friend used to play 40K, I'd go Tau and he'd go 'Nids... I swear that he would just make rules up, in all fairness neither of us fully knew the rules since we were pretty young at the time but wow, it screamed fishy, one of the rules I remember being fishy about was when he said something like "oh, my nids insta kill on a 6 in melee". Not saying he was lying or anything, just saying that it was a bit fishy since my rule book went missing in his house prior and I had no way of checking. Thinking back to it, wouldn't I still get an armour save? I mean, if he hits me surely I get to see if it's a critical hit or a graze?
Then again, I'm pretty sure he was using the wrong stats too... my Tau should have been blasting them. Kinda annoying looking back at it... :T
Now, I'm not going to talk down about one of my childhood friends but it's really put me off battling. in this kinda hobby, I mean the next chance I have of a battle (realistically) is when I go down my mates house he had that box set with the Space Marines and the Tyranids.
Bad memories with the 'Nids love them but I have bad memories with them.
rigeld2 wrote: If he had Rending Claws then if he rolls a 6 to wound you don't get an armor save so its possible thats what he meant.
He's talking about Implant Attack, page 84 in the Tyranid codex. If you roll a 6 to wound it inflicts instant death, regardless of toughness.
Depends how long ago it was. Until the current codex Implant Attack was two wounds, not Instant Death. If their game pre-dates that, then the only thing he can be talking about is Rending Claws.
If any of you remember 4th you'll remember pod armies were difficult for a lot of people to deal with, there were a few other builds that could weather them (nidzilla, Immortal falcon eldar, fish of fury tau) but they are all dead now. In 5th you could deal with them and put your entire army in reserve and negate aspects of it, but now in 6th you are forced to put 50% of your forces down unless you're marines in drop pods or daemons. add in the fact that reserves is now 3+ on turn 2 and you've got yourself a problem.
It was after I saw two players in an elimination tournament pretty much rocking the same drop pod army, the old woes have come back, and this time around there isnt much that can deal with them.
In case you guys didnt know about drop pod tactics here's a quick run through:
-You always want to go second, it eliminates a turn of offense of your opponent while you still get a full game turn of offense.
- Cherry picking, essentially you choose where the battle takes place.
-Vulkan, makes your meltas and flamers twin linked, even with snap shots you have a higher chance to kill stuff, even fliers!
You forgot Ashmantle in a Lucious drop pod. If Forge World rules are allowed, and they commonly are nowdays.
An AV13 Dreadnought that ignores melta, lance, rending; any extra dice effect on the vehicle damage chart, and assaults the turn he comes out.....
Most armies simply don't have an answer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyone that thinks the GK player auto wins because he goes first against daemons, doesn't understand the matchup.
It greatly evens the odds, but is far from a sure thing.
Reference: I own Apocalypse sized Grey Knight & Daemon Armies, and have played in many tournaments & apoc games with
both. I know the matchup all too well. And BTW, anyone that says daemons used to suck in 5th never played me. I routinely tabled
Purifier Spam, Draigo Wing, and Coteaz lists with my Daemons in 5th.
You forgot Ashmantle in a Lucious drop pod. If Forge World rules are allowed, and they commonly are nowdays.
An AV13 Dreadnought that ignores melta, lance, rending; any extra dice effect on the vehicle damage chart, and assaults the turn he comes out.....
Most armies simply don't have an answer.
So a dreadnought actually worth its points to go into melee, with a fast attack slot tax at 55 points.
I routinely tabled
Purifier Spam, Draigo Wing, and Coteaz lists with my Daemons in 5th.
Probably because you played newer players, generally daemons got beaten hard in most cases, unless you tailored against them.
No. Ashmantle is far more than a "dreadnought". You don't understand his rules or haven't seen him in action. Part of the problem is what are you going to
do to stop him? Melta guns; fail, Rending; nope, Power Fists\Power Claws; good luck. Rail Guns\Lascannons; maybe - but oh wait, he already got into assault before you even get
a chance to shoot at him or react. He has melta weaponry to pop transports, a flame attack that hits everything he is in base to base contact with, and he has 4 Hullpoints.
He is a broken unit when combined with the Lucious drop pod.
Daemons got beaten hard when they were played by inexperienced players that didn't understand there was a super power build with them in 5th. I have never
lost to Grey Knights with my Daemons. Normally by turn 3, the Grey Knight player is wondering what the hell happened.
No. Ashmantle is far more than a "dreadnought". You don't understand his rules or haven't seen him in action. Part of the problem is what are you going to
do to stop him? Melta guns; fail, Rending; nope, Power Fists\Power Claws; good luck. Rail Guns\Lascannons; maybe - but oh wait, he already got into assault before you even get
a chance to shoot at him or react. He has melta weaponry to pop transports, a flame attack that hits everything he is in base to base contact with, and he has 4 Hullpoints.
He is a broken unit when combined with the Lucious drop pod.
He's also 265 points that you neglected to mention, with a 55 point tax due to the lucius pod, and has a 1/6 chance of being immobilized on rushing out.
He's hardly broken at all, rushing him up the field would make him useless, he's built for melee and he has standard 4I like marines, most MC's will crush him in standard combat, sure is he powerful against the right armies? Yes, but to say he's broken is quite laughable. For 300+ I certainly hope he better do some damage in combat! His flame attack is only S5/AP4 that hits even friendly models.
Daemons got beaten hard when they were played by inexperienced players that didn't understand there was a super power build with them in 5th. I have never
lost to Grey Knights with my Daemons. Normally by turn 3, the Grey Knight player is wondering what the hell happened.
Super power build huh? How about showing it? I'd love to see.
AS for Ashmantle being broken? You bubble wrapped, andhe was usually effective enough that you broke on his turn, meaning you were free to shoot him in his AV-not-13 rear all you liked. Definitely not broken, especially for the points cost.
AS for Ashmantle being broken? You bubble wrapped, andhe was usually effective enough that you broke on his turn, meaning you were free to shoot him in his AV-not-13 rear all you liked. Definitely not broken, especially for the points cost.
Bubble wrapping is a nice thought, but doesn't work well with Ashmantle. The reason is he is usually run in Vulkan drop pod lists, and anything that is bubble wrapping is typically vaporized so that he can pick whatever target he wants.
So Turn 1 - Pods come down, 2-3 units of Sternguard + Ashmantle get out of their pods. Sternguard melta and flame 2-3 units, likely utterly annihilating them. Ashmantle than assaults annihilating
a 3rd\4th unit. All of this BEFORE the opponent can react in almost every case. The following turn, chances are Ashmantle will still be around, and he will destroy a 5th\6th unit.
It is very broken and unfair. Especially if the above list is run by an experienced player.
3 Sternguard Squads (assuming 5-man squads with combi-weapons), Vulkan, Bray'arth and Drop Pods for them (including a Lucius for Bray'arth comes out at 1065 points. That doesn't include the two Troops you have to take or the four extra Drop Pods you need to be allowed to drop all that turn 1. Those four Pods alone bring the total up to 1205 points. You're not going to have much outside the alpha strike units, who will get to kill a bit of the enemy army before promptly ceasing to exist. Melee Dreadnoughts are almost completely invalidated by 6th edition, it's either charging them out of a Stormraven or a Lucius Pod that lets them even touch the enemy lines.
As above. ONly inexperienced players wouldnt see that coming - defence in depth and castling means bubble wrapping DOES work. They cant land inside your outer ring, which is a drop pods width apart, so are forced to land the other side. Those units die (well, sometimes - spread out flamers do not a lot to them, even with a 6" disembark) and your 3 units of 5 man stern guard are now out int he open, and Ashmantle is stuck either assaulting a remnant squad, which he will destroy on his turn, or doesnt assault and is shot down anyway
You dont "react" to a drop pod list; you never have done. You beat it in deployment.
nosferatu1001 wrote: As above. ONly inexperienced players wouldnt see that coming - defence in depth and castling means bubble wrapping DOES work. They cant land inside your outer ring, which is a drop pods width apart, so are forced to land the other side. Those units die (well, sometimes - spread out flamers do not a lot to them, even with a 6" disembark) and your 3 units of 5 man stern guard are now out int he open, and Ashmantle is stuck either assaulting a remnant squad, which he will destroy on his turn, or doesnt assault and is shot down anyway
You dont "react" to a drop pod list; you never have done. You beat it in deployment.
I take it you haven't played the army or seen it in action? I can tell you right now, that build is top tier. It is downright nasty in the hands of a good player.
I have personally watched it sweep 2 tournaments. I beat it, but only because I was running a nasty Tzeentch daemon build.
nosferatu1001 wrote: As above. ONly inexperienced players wouldnt see that coming - defence in depth and castling means bubble wrapping DOES work. They cant land inside your outer ring, which is a drop pods width apart, so are forced to land the other side. Those units die (well, sometimes - spread out flamers do not a lot to them, even with a 6" disembark) and your 3 units of 5 man stern guard are now out int he open, and Ashmantle is stuck either assaulting a remnant squad, which he will destroy on his turn, or doesnt assault and is shot down anyway
You dont "react" to a drop pod list; you never have done. You beat it in deployment.
I take it you haven't played the army or seen it in action? I can tell you right now, that build is top tier. It is downright nasty in the hands of a good player.
I have personally watched it sweep 2 tournaments. I beat it, but only because I was running a nasty Tzeentch daemon build.
So, show us the online tournament results, and the list you're speaking of. I'm very curious of this list that has just "Swept" two tournaments.
In addition, we still haven't seen your Daemon build that was so amazing in 5th.
The banner of devastation is broken. Its for 4 shots per model for a relentless or non-moving unit wielding bolters. In concert with several squads it can do serious damage. Watch an enemy unit charging such a squad.
nosferatu1001 wrote: As above. ONly inexperienced players wouldnt see that coming - defence in depth and castling means bubble wrapping DOES work. They cant land inside your outer ring, which is a drop pods width apart, so are forced to land the other side. Those units die (well, sometimes - spread out flamers do not a lot to them, even with a 6" disembark) and your 3 units of 5 man stern guard are now out int he open, and Ashmantle is stuck either assaulting a remnant squad, which he will destroy on his turn, or doesnt assault and is shot down anyway
You dont "react" to a drop pod list; you never have done. You beat it in deployment.
I take it you haven't played the army or seen it in action? I can tell you right now, that build is top tier. It is downright nasty in the hands of a good player.
I have personally watched it sweep 2 tournaments. I beat it, but only because I was running a nasty Tzeentch daemon build.
INcorrect on both counts.
Still waiting on your army list that beat face in 5th, and woul love to see this list. Which 2 tournaments? A local store hardly counts.
rigeld2 wrote: If he had Rending Claws then if he rolls a 6 to wound you don't get an armor save so its possible thats what he meant.
He's talking about Implant Attack, page 84 in the Tyranid codex. If you roll a 6 to wound it inflicts instant death, regardless of toughness.
Depends how long ago it was. Until the current codex Implant Attack was two wounds, not Instant Death. If their game pre-dates that, then the only thing he can be talking about is Rending Claws.
rigeld2 wrote: If he had Rending Claws then if he rolls a 6 to wound you don't get an armor save so its possible thats what he meant.
He's talking about Implant Attack, page 84 in the Tyranid codex. If you roll a 6 to wound it inflicts instant death, regardless of toughness.
Depends how long ago it was. Until the current codex Implant Attack was two wounds, not Instant Death. If their game pre-dates that, then the only thing he can be talking about is Rending Claws.
Dang, sorry for the savage multi qoute but that would make sense I suppose, it's just the fact that he didn't tell me This was about the time when that Battle for MacRidge set was out so I'm not sure what codex that would have been :T
So, what I hoped would be a funny thread full of stories of TFG type players trying to pull the wool over other player's eyes... has instead been 4 pages of daemon and GK players bitching at each other.
wuestenfux wrote: The banner of devastation is broken. Its for 4 shots per model for a relentless or non-moving unit wielding bolters. In concert with several squads it can do serious damage. Watch an enemy unit charging such a squad.
Especially when combined with hurricane bolters, it'll get FAQ'd into the ground eventually but in the meanwhile its awesome wrecking people with 72 twin linked bolters, more so if you hit them with a rad grenade before hand.
nosferatu1001 wrote: As above. ONly inexperienced players wouldnt see that coming - defence in depth and castling means bubble wrapping DOES work. They cant land inside your outer ring, which is a drop pods width apart, so are forced to land the other side. Those units die (well, sometimes - spread out flamers do not a lot to them, even with a 6" disembark) and your 3 units of 5 man stern guard are now out int he open, and Ashmantle is stuck either assaulting a remnant squad, which he will destroy on his turn, or doesnt assault and is shot down anyway
You dont "react" to a drop pod list; you never have done. You beat it in deployment.
I take it you haven't played the army or seen it in action? I can tell you right now, that build is top tier. It is downright nasty in the hands of a good player.
I have personally watched it sweep 2 tournaments. I beat it, but only because I was running a nasty Tzeentch daemon build.
INcorrect on both counts.
Still waiting on your army list that beat face in 5th, and woul love to see this list. Which 2 tournaments? A local store hardly counts.
Local tournaments don't count? Why is that? Our top local guy went to Feast of Blades in Chicago and beat the guy that took first. Care to play? I am Firstborn on Vassal.
You played a lot of 5th, but you don't even know about Fatecrusher? I used to destroy Draigo Wing builds with it. Just flat out annihilate them in assault.
My God, Dakka is filled with rat faced, internet 40K know it all’s, who really and truly don't know what they are talking about. They sure think they do though.
nosferatu1001 wrote: As above. ONly inexperienced players wouldnt see that coming - defence in depth and castling means bubble wrapping DOES work. They cant land inside your outer ring, which is a drop pods width apart, so are forced to land the other side. Those units die (well, sometimes - spread out flamers do not a lot to them, even with a 6" disembark) and your 3 units of 5 man stern guard are now out int he open, and Ashmantle is stuck either assaulting a remnant squad, which he will destroy on his turn, or doesnt assault and is shot down anyway
You dont "react" to a drop pod list; you never have done. You beat it in deployment.
I take it you haven't played the army or seen it in action? I can tell you right now, that build is top tier. It is downright nasty in the hands of a good player.
I have personally watched it sweep 2 tournaments. I beat it, but only because I was running a nasty Tzeentch daemon build.
INcorrect on both counts.
Still waiting on your army list that beat face in 5th, and woul love to see this list. Which 2 tournaments? A local store hardly counts.
Local tournaments don't count? Why is that? Our top local guy went to Feast of Blades in Chicago and beat the guy that took first. He or I would bend
you over on the table. Care to play? I am Firstborn on Vassal.
You played a lot of 5th, but you don't even know about Fatecrusher? I used to destroy Draigo Wing builds with it. Just flat out annihilate them in assault.
My God, Dakka is filled with rat faced, internet 40K know it all’s, who really and truly don't know what they are talking about. They sure think they do though.
It is such of a waste of time to have a discussion with people like Nosferatu1001 around. They just continuously talk out of your a$$, won't admit when they are incorrect,
and I speculate would get tabled very quickly against a real veteran player.
If you are as good as you say post the list dude. YOU look like you have nothing to back your statement up.
Local tournaments don't count? Why is that? Our top local guy went to Feast of Blades in Chicago and beat the guy that took first.
Let's start here.
So, you're saying that your top local guy, went o feast of Blades, but didn't win it, correct? Beating one person in a match doesn't prove anything, that can come down to a multitude of variables. Also, would you mind pulling up what year this was, the lists, and the place that your top local friend made in the Tournement?
He or I would bend
you over on the table.
Are you attending Adepticon?How about your Friend. I ask, because it seems if he made the trip to Feast of Blades, then he would likely for Adepticon as well. If so, you and your friend will both have plenty of matches to prove yourself.
These kind of comments arn't going to win you any arguments though, and just purvey a childish mentality.
Care to play? I am Firstborn on Vassal.
Same kind of Chest-Thumping as earlier. As before, this adds nothing to a discussion.
You played a lot of 5th, but you don't even know about Fatecrusher?
Fatecrusher was pretty much the only viable build in 5th, but it never dominated any tournaments. Bill Kim is probably one of the top ranked players in the US with Daemons, and He came in 8th, I believe in the 2011 Adepticon tourney.
I used to destroy Draigo Wing builds with it. Just flat out annihilate them in assault.
anecdotal evidence like this, without a proven track record of major GT wins, really doesn't add anything to the discussion.
My God, Dakka is filled with rat faced, internet 40K know it all’s, who really and truly don't know what they are talking about. They sure think they do though.
Personal Attacks are against rule number 1.
It is such of a waste of time to have a discussion with people like Nosferatu1001 around. They just continuously talk out of your a$$, won't admit when they are incorrect,
and I speculate would get tabled very quickly against a real veteran player.
I feel like I'm a broken record here.
Fact of the matter is, you still have not provided those lists, and any major tournament results. Since your friend did attend Feast of Blades though, it would be nice if you would provide the requested information I asked for earlier in my post.
nosferatu1001 wrote: As above. ONly inexperienced players wouldnt see that coming - defence in depth and castling means bubble wrapping DOES work. They cant land inside your outer ring, which is a drop pods width apart, so are forced to land the other side. Those units die (well, sometimes - spread out flamers do not a lot to them, even with a 6" disembark) and your 3 units of 5 man stern guard are now out int he open, and Ashmantle is stuck either assaulting a remnant squad, which he will destroy on his turn, or doesnt assault and is shot down anyway
You dont "react" to a drop pod list; you never have done. You beat it in deployment.
I take it you haven't played the army or seen it in action? I can tell you right now, that build is top tier. It is downright nasty in the hands of a good player.
I have personally watched it sweep 2 tournaments. I beat it, but only because I was running a nasty Tzeentch daemon build.
INcorrect on both counts.
Still waiting on your army list that beat face in 5th, and woul love to see this list. Which 2 tournaments? A local store hardly counts.
Local tournaments don't count? Why is that? Our top local guy went to Feast of Blades in Chicago and beat the guy that took first. He or I would bend
you over on the table. Care to play? I am Firstborn on Vassal.
You played a lot of 5th, but you don't even know about Fatecrusher? I used to destroy Draigo Wing builds with it. Just flat out annihilate them in assault.
My God, Dakka is filled with rat faced, internet 40K know it all’s, who really and truly don't know what they are talking about. They sure think they do though.
It is such of a waste of time to have a discussion with people like Nosferatu1001 around. They just continuously talk out of your a$$, won't admit when they are incorrect,
and I speculate would get tabled very quickly against a real veteran player.
Sorry, but that pretty much applies to your entire post.
You're not willing to even post this list that is supposedly the most awesome fatecrusher list that could beat all GK lists, that pinned down draigowing, that beat all tournaments. Seeing as your insulting people now without providing anything at this point, you've proven nothing except that your all talk.
nosferatu1001 wrote: As above. ONly inexperienced players wouldnt see that coming - defence in depth and castling means bubble wrapping DOES work. They cant land inside your outer ring, which is a drop pods width apart, so are forced to land the other side. Those units die (well, sometimes - spread out flamers do not a lot to them, even with a 6" disembark) and your 3 units of 5 man stern guard are now out int he open, and Ashmantle is stuck either assaulting a remnant squad, which he will destroy on his turn, or doesnt assault and is shot down anyway
You dont "react" to a drop pod list; you never have done. You beat it in deployment.
I take it you haven't played the army or seen it in action? I can tell you right now, that build is top tier. It is downright nasty in the hands of a good player.
I have personally watched it sweep 2 tournaments. I beat it, but only because I was running a nasty Tzeentch daemon build.
INcorrect on both counts.
Still waiting on your army list that beat face in 5th, and woul love to see this list. Which 2 tournaments? A local store hardly counts.
Local tournaments don't count? Why is that? Our top local guy went to Feast of Blades in Chicago and beat the guy that took first. He or I would bend
you over on the table. Care to play? I am Firstborn on Vassal.
You played a lot of 5th, but you don't even know about Fatecrusher? I used to destroy Draigo Wing builds with it. Just flat out annihilate them in assault.
My God, Dakka is filled with rat faced, internet 40K know it all’s, who really and truly don't know what they are talking about. They sure think they do though.
It is such of a waste of time to have a discussion with people like Nosferatu1001 around. They just continuously talk out of your a$$, won't admit when they are incorrect,
and I speculate would get tabled very quickly against a real veteran player.
Sorry, but that pretty much applies to your entire post.
You're not willing to even post this list that is supposedly the most awesome fatecrusher list that could beat all GK lists, that pinned down draigowing, that beat all tournaments. Seeing as your insulting people now without providing anything at this point, you've proven nothing except that your all talk.
So now we have moved away from discussing Ashmantal\Lucious Vulkan lists, and have gotten into 5th edition daemons.....
You can search dakka for Fatecrusher yourself. I have nothing left to prove with my 5th edition daemons, other than a pile of tabled armies it left in it's wake.
Dakka is a really $hitty place to have a rational discussion. There are always armchair generals out there with big finecast penis's that like to talk tough.
I do my talking on the table. As I said, I am on Vassal a few times a week. Look me up if you want to play a game of 5th edition against my Daemons.
I will prove it to you where it counts; in game.
Firstborn wrote: Local tournaments don't count? Why is that?
I would have thought the answer would have been obvious - and btw i said Store, as in "generally they manage 12 players" Store tournaments - size of field, and influence of local meta. It is too small a pool to claim any validity on "this list is awesome on"
Theres a reason rankings has a points reduction for small tournaments.
Firstborn wrote:Our top local guy went to Feast of Blades in Chicago and beat the guy that took first.
Which, in a dice game is not necessarily indicative of relative skill at all. Especially over one game. You know, its the reason tournaments are over a few rounds....
Firstborn wrote:You played a lot of 5th, but you don't even know about Fatecrusher?
Given this is the first time you have bothered to name the list, you really should temper your surprise - yes, I know about Fatecrusher. Sorry, i thought you had something actually original you might post up. You still havent posted your exact list, or why it was so superior to everyone elses fate crusher list.
Firstborn wrote: I used to destroy Draigo Wing builds with it. Just flat out annihilate them in assault.
They let you assault them? Then you played against newbs. Your 6" moving army doesnt get to assault unless you are very lucky
Edited. Please keep in mind that Rule Number One is Be Polite. This means that you need to stick to attacking arguments rather than people. If you cannot post on DakkaDakka without making personal attacks then your account will be suspended. Thanks ~ Manchu
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow, it looks like Machu the mod doesn't like the fact I broke the norm and dominated Grey Knights with my Daemons in 5th.
It is the reality of the situation, and I am happy to prove it if you want to play a game of 5th. Heck, I still kept my old rulebook and wouldn't
mind playing an old game for nostalgia sakes.
And trust me, Nosferatuo1001, if you take Draigo Wing against my Fatecrusher daemons, there will be massive assaults happening all over
the place. Screening your Paladins with Psyrifleman won't save you.
Sasori wrote: Fact of the matter is, you still have not provided those lists, and any major tournament results. Since your friend did attend Feast of Blades though, it would be nice if you would provide the requested information I asked for earlier in my post.
Iron Dragon wrote: Wish people would talk about cheesy stuff they've seen at games.. :( Or stories about TFG.
My ultimate personal cheese ball moment was actually in WHFB i took two warp lightning cannons in a 1000 pt game against a newbie. I am now deservedly harassed for this.
Iron Dragon wrote: Wish people would talk about cheesy stuff they've seen at games.. :( Or stories about TFG.
Man, sorry about people hijacking the crap out of your post.
So onto something that I used to find cheesy (or at least frustrating to play against).
Back in 4th edition there was a guy that used to bring a Nidzilla army. That was back when I was first starting and only had Tau that I was god awful with.
Just always was a bad feeling when I see that the only thing left on my half of the table is his army haha!
captain collius wrote: Dude again just post your freaking list and get it over with. The personal attacks make you look petty.
I know how good demons list were in 5th. Heck the only list i ever feared was mono-tzeentch demons with tons of flamers
Guys, just stop feeding the Troll...
Yes Fatecrusher was solid...
...At least until it met with a non-noob Draigowing or Henchman list that included at least 10 Interceptors and/or Strikes.
Then that Fatecrusher list was more like a 'Fits-of-laughting-at-crusher' list because those absolutely massive Deep Strike footprints of 8 'Crushers + Jugger Herald couldn't avoid the quake-bubbles. (or had to land well away and then spent at least the next 1-2 turns or more getting shot to gak while making up the lost ground.)
Bad players & Noobs took 100% Pally + Psyfleman lists.
Smart players took a solid Deathstar of Pallies + 3x Psyflemen and then added other supporting units to give their force more flexibility and some staying power.
Sasori wrote: Fact of the matter is, you still have not provided those lists, and any major tournament results. Since your friend did attend Feast of Blades though, it would be nice if you would provide the requested information I asked for earlier in my post.
captain collius wrote: Dude again just post your freaking list and get it over with. The personal attacks make you look petty.
I know how good demons list were in 5th. Heck the only list i ever feared was mono-tzeentch demons with tons of flamers
Guys, just stop feeding the Troll...
Yes Fatecrusher was solid...
...At least until it met with a non-noob Draigowing or Henchman list that included at least 10 Interceptors and/or Strikes.
Then that Fatecrusher list was more like a 'Fits-of-laughting-at-crusher' list because those absolutely massive Deep Strike footprints of 8 'Crushers + Jugger Herald couldn't avoid the quake-bubbles. (or had to land well away and then spent at least the next 1-2 turns or more getting shot to gak while making up the lost ground.)
Bad players & Noobs took 100% Pally + Psyfleman lists.
Smart players took a solid Deathstar of Pallies + 3x Psyflemen and then added other supporting units to give their force more flexibility and some staying power.
More flexibility yes, but 1-2 instances of Warpquake isn't going to save you. You are talking to the wrong person if you are trying to "educate" me about the Daemon\Grey Knight matchup.
Local tournaments don't count? Why is that? Our top local guy went to Feast of Blades in Chicago and beat the guy that took first. Care to play? I am Firstborn on Vassal.
You played a lot of 5th, but you don't even know about Fatecrusher? I used to destroy Draigo Wing builds with it. Just flat out annihilate them in assault.
Seriously guys, go start your own thread debating if Fatecrusher could beat x list.
Hell, I'll even start it for you if you want me to.
Until then, how about you don't flood a thread started by someone friendly joking about cheese stuff with crap nobody wants to read about but yourselves.
rabid1903 wrote: Until then, how about you don't flood a thread started by someone friendly joking about cheese stuff with crap nobody wants to read about but yourselves.
Chill. Firstborn is talking about a cheesy list beating an even cheesier list. It is exactly on-topic.
rabid1903 wrote: Until then, how about you don't flood a thread started by someone friendly joking about cheese stuff with crap nobody wants to read about but yourselves.
Chill. Firstborn is talking about a cheesy list beating an even cheesier list. It is exactly on-topic.
Pretty much this.
rabid1903 wrote:Seriously guys, go start your own thread debating if Fatecrusher could beat x list.
Hell, I'll even start it for you if you want me to.
Until then, how about you don't flood a thread started by someone friendly joking about cheese stuff with crap nobody wants to read about but yourselves.
Not to mention, you know you can't actually tell other users what to do, right? I mean, Mods and Admins can, but I don't think regular users can.
I'm requesting that we return to what was intended by the opening post, not ordering or anything like that.
Having a thread hijacked is incredibly frustrating, and you might not know that you're doing it. Friendly reminders were given multiple times by the original poster and a few others.
Unfortunately, text doesn't translate that I'm actually very calm. After seeing friendly reminders not working though, and that the only posts that were getting attention were the ones that sounded more hostile; I adjusted my tactics. Worst of all, that was the post that got a response.
I'm leaving the thread now, you can say what you want. I just wanted people to realize what had happened.
From the looks of things all this banter/arguing can be stopped with such little effort from one or two persons
It looks like we need some emergancy cheese so I'll offer what little rations I have, it's not really the same but here we go!
The other week I played out a game by myself to do a battle report for my college article, the theme was that 4 Space Marines were rescuing civilians that had been stranded on a planet where groups of Orks live and some forces of Chaos.
6 Orks v.s 4 Space Marines, from what I read they only do well in groups, they took down two Marines thanks to lucky dice rolls, brought in some Chaos Cultists, they took them down too thanks to lucky dice rolls, only ended the game by deciding to bring a Helbrute onto the table.
It's cheesy how good the Orks did that game, expected the Marines to slaughter them and have an awesome last effort fight against the Chaos Cultists.
Seriously play drop pod armies, they are the cheddar.
And Im fairly certain berzerkers cant stand up to a hail of bolter fire and twin linked flamers/ meltas on a flank and still hope to swing properly at full force.
Local tournaments don't count? Why is that? Our top local guy went to Feast of Blades in Chicago and beat the guy that took first. Care to play? I am Firstborn on Vassal.
You played a lot of 5th, but you don't even know about Fatecrusher? I used to destroy Draigo Wing builds with it. Just flat out annihilate them in assault.
Thats a neat trick, pics or it didnt happen.
To carry on with my point:
If you charged a full 10 man paladin squad with your 8 bloodcrushers, and lets assume you magically took zero casualties from shooting despite their slow speed, and lets also assume fateweaver didnt take 4 master crafted psycannons, and numerous S5 bolter shots to the face that you managed to charge paladins that were standing in the open otherwise you're I1, and lets assume there is zero halbreds after all that you get what? 32 attacks on the charge, 16 hits, 14 wounds. 2 will be ignored by the stave, lets say 6 are ignored from swords and I'll give it to you the rest go in and that Draigo didnt make it in combat. Thats 6 wounds spread out over 10 2 wound models. Paladins hammerhand up back with draigos, along with the banner and counter attack you're looking at 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, after rerolls from fateweaver (who magically is still within 6") you're still looking at 7 wounds + daemon bane. Next round you lose your strength and attack bonus, and you have to deal with Draigo in the mix.
There is alot of "if's" in there for the Blood crushers to be swinging at full blast and there isnt a chance in hell you're sweep paladins.
The story is alot different now in 6th, you wouldnt even do a dent on the armour.
Nope. And it's not relevant. You have been asked to post this amazing list you run. Will you do it or not? If not, why not?
I will guess "not", but without any explanation. Just more bluster.
Sadly the current cheese really is flamer spam. At the 1500 - 1750 level, which is most UK tournaments, they can max on them without losing anything elsewhere, and you cant take enough to tip the balance.
Ravenous D wrote: Seriously play drop pod armies, they are the cheddar.
And Im fairly certain berzerkers cant stand up to a hail of bolter fire and twin linked flamers/ meltas on a flank and still hope to swing properly at full force.
Local tournaments don't count? Why is that? Our top local guy went to Feast of Blades in Chicago and beat the guy that took first. Care to play? I am Firstborn on Vassal.
You played a lot of 5th, but you don't even know about Fatecrusher? I used to destroy Draigo Wing builds with it. Just flat out annihilate them in assault.
Thats a neat trick, pics or it didnt happen.
To carry on with my point:
If you charged a full 10 man paladin squad with your 8 bloodcrushers, and lets assume you magically took zero casualties from shooting despite their slow speed, and lets also assume fateweaver didnt take 4 master crafted psycannons, and numerous S5 bolter shots to the face that you managed to charge paladins that were standing in the open otherwise you're I1, and lets assume there is zero halbreds after all that you get what? 32 attacks on the charge, 16 hits, 14 wounds. 2 will be ignored by the stave, lets say 6 are ignored from swords and I'll give it to you the rest go in and that Draigo didnt make it in combat. Thats 6 wounds spread out over 10 2 wound models. Paladins hammerhand up back with draigos, along with the banner and counter attack you're looking at 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, after rerolls from fateweaver (who magically is still within 6") you're still looking at 7 wounds + daemon bane. Next round you lose your strength and attack bonus, and you have to deal with Draigo in the mix.
There is alot of "if's" in there for the Blood crushers to be swinging at full blast and there isnt a chance in hell you're sweep paladins.
The story is alot different now in 6th, you wouldnt even do a dent on the armour.
The story changes considerably with 3 units of 8x Bloodcrushers supported by a Bloodthirster with blessing\might and Fateweaver. I win the assault every time, and I would confidently take on 2 bricks of 10x Paladins
with that setup. It is nastier than you can imagine.
The math has been broken down before, Blackmoor has been involved, and I have played the matchup countless times.
The one thing we can agree on (back on topic), are drop pod lists are cheedar. Especially with Ashmantle in a Lucious pod. It really is the best that the vanilla marine codex can put out right now, but it is very abusive
against most other armies.
Nope. And it's not relevant. You have been asked to post this amazing list you run. Will you do it or not? If not, why not?
I will guess "not", but without any explanation. Just more bluster.
Sadly the current cheese really is flamer spam. At the 1500 - 1750 level, which is most UK tournaments, they can max on them without losing anything elsewhere, and you cant take enough to tip the balance.
Yes, flamers & screamers are the current daemon power list. I actually developed the list and was playing it locally before Nick took 2nd at Nova with it.
It is a very powerful list, and if folks are using it in casual games they should be burned at the stake. Generally, I recommend using no more than 1 unit of each in friendly games. This is where players
need to use some common sense when playing with friends. I know everyone wants to win, but it is just abusive to spam nothing but flamers and screamers unless you are playing in a competitive
tournament.
The one thing we can agree on (back on topic), are drop pod lists are cheedar. Especially with Ashmantle in a Lucious pod. It really is the best that the vanilla marine codex can put out right now, but it is very abusive
against most other armies.
Because something that costs two slots (HQ & fast attack) Is over 300 points, that can be beaten by a single Hive Tyrant, kitted out Chaos lord, or anyone who has any equivalent of MC's, it's great if people don't know how to bubble rap or how to actually use the castle doctrine to fight it...You know, people who plan out how to fight them, and can think of how to beat alternative lists.
The story changes considerably with 3 units of 8x Bloodcrushers supported by a Bloodthirster with blessing\might and Fateweaver. I win the assault every time, and I would confidently take on 2 bricks of 10x Paladins
with that setup. It is nastier than you can imagine.
The math has been broken down before, Blackmoor has been involved, and I have played the matchup countless times.
That big a footprint is easily going to be broken by anyone with..Y'know, actual smarts, or who have actually fought things that deepstrike.That point cost also the equivalent of 1568 points. Literally an entire list that your not getting off on the first turn due to daemonic assault so it'll be coming down in piecemeal. So yeah, still waiting on that list you were bragging about.
The one thing we can agree on (back on topic), are drop pod lists are cheedar. Especially with Ashmantle in a Lucious pod. It really is the best that the vanilla marine codex can put out right now, but it is very abusive
against most other armies.
Because something that costs two slots (HQ & fast attack) Is over 300 points, that can be beaten by a single Hive Tyrant, kitted out Chaos lord, or anyone who has any equivalent of MC's, it's great if people don't know how to bubble rap or how to actually use the castle doctrine to fight it...You know, people who plan out how to fight them, and can think of how to beat alternative lists.
The story changes considerably with 3 units of 8x Bloodcrushers supported by a Bloodthirster with blessing\might and Fateweaver. I win the assault every time, and I would confidently take on 2 bricks of 10x Paladins
with that setup. It is nastier than you can imagine.
The math has been broken down before, Blackmoor has been involved, and I have played the matchup countless times.
That big a footprint is easily going to be broken by anyone with..Y'know, actual smarts, or who have actually fought things that deepstrike.That point cost also the equivalent of 1568 points. Literally an entire list that your not getting off on the first turn due to daemonic assault so it'll be coming down in piecemeal. So yeah, still waiting on that list you were bragging about.
You sir, are an armchair general. I eat guys like you for lunch.
A ben franklin says you haven't dealt with either of these 2 lists you are theory hammering over your keyboard. I have played them in the trenches, many times, where the rubber meats the road.
That's the difference between you and me.
Your arguments also fall flat. Bubble wrap is ineffective against a skilled Vulkan drop pod player, and a large footprint would be the least of your worries if you faced my Fatecrusher daemons.
Not to mention all 3x 8 Bloodcrushers, the Blood Thirster, and Fateweaver almost always show up turn 1. Because they are 50% of my 2k list. You need to re-read how daemonic assault works.
Your arguments also fall flat. Bubble wrap is ineffective against a skilled Vulkan drop pod player, and a large footprint would be the least of your worries if you faced my Fatecrusher daemons.
Not to mention all 3x 8 Bloodcrushers, the Blood Thirster, and Fateweaver almost always show up turn 1. Because they are 50% of my 2k list. You need to re-read how daemonic assault works.
According to the points total, that's 75% of your list if its 2k as its 1568 (Where's that list btw? There's about 400 points left to go, just a little more and that will be the rest! )
You sir, are an armchair general. I eat guys like you for lunch.
A ben franklin says you haven't dealt with either of these 2 lists you are theory hammering over your keyboard. I have played them in the trenches, many times, where the rubber meats the road.
That's the difference between you and me.
..You are just to comical, you know that right. You're like a politician throwing out buzzwords in an effort to detract from statements.
Firstborn wrote:
You sir, are an armchair general. I eat guys like you for lunch.
More bluster, with no proof
Firstborn wrote:A ben franklin says you haven't dealt with either of these 2 lists you are theory hammering over your keyboard. I have played them in the trenches, many times, where the rubber meats the road.
Trenches have rubber in them now? And roads?
Firstborn wrote:That's the difference between you and me.
WEll there is one difference between you two....
Firstborn wrote:Your arguments also fall flat. Bubble wrap is ineffective against a skilled Vulkan drop pod player
Please post that vulkan / ashborn list then. We've pointed out the issues and so far all we've heard is "well a skiled player...". There is only so much a skilled player with drop pods can do against castle, in 5th or 6th, when it is a castle done well.
Firstborn wrote:, and a large footprint would be the least of your worries if you faced my Fatecrusher daemons.
Not if you want all 3 units to be in range of fateweaver it isnt. Warpquake does ruin your day, when it is two units of 5 strikes blocking a good portion of the board from you, turn one, apart from where the GK player wants you to go.
Firstborn wrote:Not to mention all 3x 8 Bloodcrushers, the Blood Thirster, and Fateweaver almost always show up turn 1. Because they are 50% of my 2k list. You need to re-read how daemonic assault works.
Please, post the lest, to see how original your list is
Oh, and as to your "I invented that list" re flamers and screamers. No, you didnt. You came up with the same list that about 1,000 people did when they saw the sheer points decrease of flamers and relatively increased power of them in 6th, witht eh de-mech meta. So please, post the list you created, so we can show prior "art"
In fact, post any actual list, with any actual proof you have to back up your claims. So far you have done nothing but be an insulting troll.
Ashmantle... interesting. However as both it and Lucius are FW, that quite restricts their use. Even that aside while it does seem powerful I don't necessarily see it as overpowered for the cost (in both points as well as taking up two FOC slots). This from an "armchair general" point of view of course, not having used them or seen them used. But there are things that can deal with a unit like that. Of course, a lot of them can only do so if it happens to win a combat at the end of its controlling player's turn so that it can be shot at.
Anyway, one extra-cheesy trick to pull is to agree on a "friendly" game and then the opponent pulling 3 flyers on you knowing full well you don't have any. Flyers in question being Void Ravens, to be exact. Which then of course blow you to smithereens without you being able to even touch them.
Well if some people don't want to respond with their actual list
I don't know if this counts but seeing my friend hide approximately 16 paladins (i'm not sure of the exact number but this is close enough) in a single piece of area terrain with draigo and a librarian and a techamarine and grant himself a 2+++ cover.
captain collius wrote: Well if some people don't want to respond with their actual list
I don't know if this counts but seeing my friend hide approximately 16 paladins (i'm not sure of the exact number but this is close enough) in a single piece of area terrain with draigo and a librarian and a techamarine and grant himself a 2+++ cover.
captain collius wrote: Well if some people don't want to respond with their actual list
I don't know if this counts but seeing my friend hide approximately 16 paladins (i'm not sure of the exact number but this is close enough) in a single piece of area terrain with draigo and a librarian and a techamarine and grant himself a 2+++ cover.
Coincidenty his cheddar failed to TH/SS
How did he get 2++?
Reinforced ruins with the Librarian casting Shrouding.
captain collius wrote: Well if some people don't want to respond with their actual list
I don't know if this counts but seeing my friend hide approximately 16 paladins (i'm not sure of the exact number but this is close enough) in a single piece of area terrain with draigo and a librarian and a techamarine and grant himself a 2+++ cover.
Coincidenty his cheddar failed to TH/SS
How did he get 2++?
Reinforced ruins with the Librarian casting Shrouding.
captain collius wrote: Well if some people don't want to respond with their actual list
I don't know if this counts but seeing my friend hide approximately 16 paladins (i'm not sure of the exact number but this is close enough) in a single piece of area terrain with draigo and a librarian and a techamarine and grant himself a 2+++ cover.
Coincidenty his cheddar failed to TH/SS
How did he get 2++?
Im pretty positive it was a large ruin, reinforced by thr tech marine. And the libby gives stealth or something like that, iirc.
Dakka is a really $hitty place to have a rational discussion. There are always armchair generals out there with big finecast penis's that like to talk tough..
I've had a few rational discussions with people, but usually this is what comes to mind...
For what it's worth, I have found fatecrusher to still be awesome in 6th. This is even moreso given the shift to infantry based armies.
what if she misses you say? Her BS is crazy high for some reason. The crazy b!tch and bullseye grenades over her shoulder at a moving target while blindfolded.
Ravenous D wrote: If you charged a full 10 man paladin squad with your 8 bloodcrushers, and lets assume you magically took zero casualties from shooting despite their slow speed, and lets also assume fateweaver didnt take 4 master crafted psycannons, and numerous S5 bolter shots to the face that you managed to charge paladins that were standing in the open otherwise you're I1, and lets assume there is zero halbreds after all that you get what? 32 attacks on the charge, 16 hits, 14 wounds. 2 will be ignored by the stave, lets say 6 are ignored from swords and I'll give it to you the rest go in and that Draigo didnt make it in combat. Thats 6 wounds spread out over 10 2 wound models. Paladins hammerhand up back with draigos, along with the banner and counter attack you're looking at 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, after rerolls from fateweaver (who magically is still within 6") you're still looking at 7 wounds + daemon bane. Next round you lose your strength and attack bonus, and you have to deal with Draigo in the mix.
1) Your only going to get one round before your assaulted. That means you get one round to shoot.
2) A STR 5 storm bolter has a 1/27 (2/3 * 1/2 * 1/9) chance of wounding a bloodcrusher. The 'hail of bullets' are not likely to do any damage to fatecrusher.
3) Fatecrusher also brings skulltaker on a jugg. Sometimes there will be 2 heralds, (though often your also facing the masque instead of a 2nd khorne herald)
4) You assault with fatey on the same turn you assault with the crushers. You challange draigo with fatey. Draigo will kill fatey in about 6 rounds of combat given average rolls. Fatey will spawn draigo in about the same amount of time. Before that happens though, Skulltaker will jump in the challange.
5) Skulltaker has a 35/36 chance of saving from any force weapon. Simply put, you take every hit from the paladin squad onto skulltaker who tanks em like a champ.
6) Skulltaker rends on a 4+ and inflicts instant death. Hes your carrying force to kill the paladins. You can expect to kill ~2 paladins a round on the turn you dont charge, and 3 on the turn you do. I illustrate the mathhammer below.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/listByUser/90/1943.page
So what will happen is fatecrusher will assault the paladin squad and wipe out the 10 paladins in 5 combat rounds. By then fatey will be dead, taken out of the assault by skulltaker, or spawned draigo. In every case though, its a grind-fest in the middle of the board for most of the game.
Paladins are actually a really bad matchup against fatecrusher. There are excellent matchups that give fatecrusher a hard time (triple helldrakes *cough* *cough*) but paladins are not it.
Ravenous D wrote: If you charged a full 10 man paladin squad with your 8 bloodcrushers, and lets assume you magically took zero casualties from shooting despite their slow speed, and lets also assume fateweaver didnt take 4 master crafted psycannons, and numerous S5 bolter shots to the face that you managed to charge paladins that were standing in the open otherwise you're I1, and lets assume there is zero halbreds after all that you get what? 32 attacks on the charge, 16 hits, 14 wounds. 2 will be ignored by the stave, lets say 6 are ignored from swords and I'll give it to you the rest go in and that Draigo didnt make it in combat. Thats 6 wounds spread out over 10 2 wound models. Paladins hammerhand up back with draigos, along with the banner and counter attack you're looking at 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, after rerolls from fateweaver (who magically is still within 6") you're still looking at 7 wounds + daemon bane. Next round you lose your strength and attack bonus, and you have to deal with Draigo in the mix.
1) Your only going to get one round before your assaulted. That means you get one round to shoot.
2) A STR 5 storm bolter has a 1/27 (2/3 * 1/2 * 1/9) chance of wounding a bloodcrusher. The 'hail of bullets' are not likely to do any damage to fatecrusher.
3) Fatecrusher also brings skulltaker on a jugg. Sometimes there will be 2 heralds, (though often your also facing the masque instead of a 2nd khorne herald)
4) You assault with fatey on the same turn you assault with the crushers. You challange draigo with fatey. Draigo will kill fatey in about 6 rounds of combat given average rolls. Fatey will spawn draigo in about the same amount of time. Before that happens though, Skulltaker will jump in the challange.
5) Skulltaker has a 35/36 chance of saving from any force weapon. Simply put, you take every hit from the paladin squad onto skulltaker who tanks em like a champ.
6) Skulltaker rends on a 4+ and inflicts instant death. Hes your carrying force to kill the paladins. You can expect to kill ~2 paladins a round on the turn you dont charge, and 3 on the turn you do. I illustrate the mathhammer below.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/listByUser/90/1943.page
So what will happen is fatecrusher will assault the paladin squad and wipe out the 10 paladins in 5 combat rounds. By then fatey will be dead, taken out of the assault by skulltaker, or spawned draigo. In every case though, its a grind-fest in the middle of the board for most of the game.
Paladins are actually a really bad matchup against fatecrusher. There are excellent matchups that give fatecrusher a hard time (triple helldrakes *cough* *cough*) but paladins are not it.
Except that a certain Troll has said their list contained 3x 8 strong Bloodcrushers + Fatey + Bloodthirster, so there's no Skulltaker rescues or Pavane shinanagains to help ensure assaults happen on your terms.
A "good" Fatecrusher list is still brutal. But as you point out, it includes the right pair of named Heralds to help bring it all together.
However, in 5th, a "good" Draigowing list was not just Draigo + Pallies + Psyflemen, but rather a solid core centered around those 3 options, but including support units in the form of say Henchmen, basic Strikes, a Vindicare (because he was filthy-good anti-tank) and/or Interceptors.
You had your main Deathstar unit that most opponents would focus on, but you still had fringe helpers for numbers plus maybe a Solodin or two to help cap rear objectives.
You sir, are an armchair general. I eat guys like you for lunch.
A ben franklin says you haven't dealt with either of these 2 lists you are theory hammering over your keyboard. I have played them in the trenches, many times, where the rubber meats the road.
That's the difference between you and me.
Your arguments also fall flat. Bubble wrap is ineffective against a skilled Vulkan drop pod player, and a large footprint would be the least of your worries if you faced my Fatecrusher daemons.
Not to mention all 3x 8 Bloodcrushers, the Blood Thirster, and Fateweaver almost always show up turn 1. Because they are 50% of my 2k list. You need to re-read how daemonic assault works.
Real talk;
You're like, ridiculously aggressive for posting on an internet forum.
You're having no problem sniping at people with petty insults, but when it comes to actual list-questions, you completely ignore them.
Experiment 626 wrote: Except that a certain Troll has said their list contained 3x 8 strong Bloodcrushers + Fatey + Bloodthirster, so there's no Skulltaker rescues or Pavane shinanagains to help ensure assaults happen on your terms.
A "good" Fatecrusher list is still brutal. But as you point out, it includes the right pair of named Heralds to help bring it all together.
Yea, I'm not sure what worked for that person. I was illustrating what works for me in this eidtion.
Experiment 626 wrote: However, in 5th, a "good" Draigowing list was not just Draigo + Pallies + Psyflemen, but rather a solid core centered around those 3 options, but including support units in the form of say Henchmen, basic Strikes, a Vindicare (because he was filthy-good anti-tank) and/or Interceptors.
You had your main Deathstar unit that most opponents would focus on, but you still had fringe helpers for numbers plus maybe a Solodin or two to help cap rear objectives.
And those support units have become virtually less effective while daemons support units (screamers/flamers) got significantly better.
Personally I'm surpised more people don't bring fatecrusher today.
Experiment 626 wrote: Except that a certain Troll has said their list contained 3x 8 strong Bloodcrushers + Fatey + Bloodthirster, so there's no Skulltaker rescues or Pavane shinanagains to help ensure assaults happen on your terms.
A "good" Fatecrusher list is still brutal. But as you point out, it includes the right pair of named Heralds to help bring it all together.
Yea, I'm not sure what worked for that person. I was illustrating what works for me in this eidtion.
Experiment 626 wrote: However, in 5th, a "good" Draigowing list was not just Draigo + Pallies + Psyflemen, but rather a solid core centered around those 3 options, but including support units in the form of say Henchmen, basic Strikes, a Vindicare (because he was filthy-good anti-tank) and/or Interceptors.
You had your main Deathstar unit that most opponents would focus on, but you still had fringe helpers for numbers plus maybe a Solodin or two to help cap rear objectives.
And those support units have become virtually less effective while daemons support units (screamers/flamers) got significantly better.
Personally I'm surpised more people don't bring fatecrusher today.
Nosfey baby, let's meet up on vassal and settle this as men. Okay? I am not going to continue debating with you. It is a pointless exercise, I might as well have a discussion with my FW Greater Daemons.
You don't need Skulltaker or other heralds to destroy Paladins with Fatecrusher in 5th. HQ's are Bloodthirster with blessing\might & Fateweaver. The rest of you whiners crying "post your Fatecrusher list", nah not
going to do it. You can search Dakka yourself, you don't get to tell me what to do. I guess your mother never taught you how to say please.
And Fatecrusher is dead in 6th as a TAC list, mainly because hellblades have dropped to AP3. Meganobz, Paladins, and big blocks of Terminators will wreck them.
Bloodcrushers are still good, but there is no reason to take them with Screamers around, unless you just want to play with the cool models. I have 28 Bloodcrushers fully painted to a high standard, with custom made Heralds & a
Skulltaker on juggernaught. You can imagine my sorrow when 6th edition rolled around.... My sense is, one or more of the 6th edition designers had Fatecrusher shoved up his a$$ one too many times, and decided to take action.
I am expecting them to get a power axe option in the next book, however.
Firstborn wrote: And Fatecrusher is dead in 6th as a TAC list, mainly because hellblades have dropped to AP3. Meganobz, Paladins, and big blocks of Terminators will wreck them..
I suggest trying it again. Its actually just fine against those. I've tried it a number of times. I even illustrated a mathhammer example for you.
The best part is the fatecrusher clocks in at 800 and change points, meaning you still have plenty of points for flamers and screamers.
What it provides is a beatstick to use that can threaten multiple units at once.
Firstborn wrote: The rest of you whiners crying "post your Fatecrusher list", nah not going to do it. You can search Dakka yourself, you don't get to tell me what to do. I guess your mother never taught you how to say please.
Right, I searched through all of your Dakka posts. No Fatecrusher list anywhere, although there was quite a bit of posts where you failed at basic decency. I guess your mother never taught you how to behave in a civil conversation, because you're getting more and more rude by the minute.
Your reading comprehension also leaves something to be desired.
Alpharius wrote: At this point, I'd really like to see "The List", please!
Firstborn wrote: I am not going to continue debating with you. It is a pointless exercise, I might as well have a discussion with my FW Greater Daemons.
As a spectator in this thread tangent I have to say that this line made me laugh out loud!
In case anyone is curious, this is how I run a fatecrusher in 6th. As I said, try it out. Its suprisingly effective.
1750 points
Fateweaver
Skulltaker on Jugg
Masque
8 Bloodcrushers w/instrument
9 flamers
9 flamers
10 plague bearers
10 plague bearers
4 screamers.
When increasing the point values, increase your numbers of screamers. At 1850, take 8 screamers. At 2000 take 14 screamers, etc...
This army is designed to table people. Its weak on troops because its goal is to either contest every one you have or just remove you from the table.
I use flamers over screams due to personal preference. Both are extremely effective. The flamers mix well with the masque as you can use her ability to group things up for the flame.
The problem with this list is the same problem with any daemon lists. You will win games, but often will lose tourneys. That's because one out of 6 games you don't get your perferred wave, and half your crap winds up deep striking excally where it should not be.
This list also has a few bad matchups. As I mentioned, triple helldrakes are a problem. You might kill everything else on the table, but those 3 helldrakes will cause big issues.
Ok, I haven't played 6th yet, so all the cheese I can bring to the party is pretty old. Old, but no less stinky...
2nd Ed, IG army... Back in the day, instead of cover saves we had penalties to hit targets in cover. Partial cover was a -1 to your roll, while Full cover was a -2. This meant BS3 models would only hit models in full cover on a 6.
The IG lascannon heavy weapon had a armor plate on the front that gave every model directly behind it full cover (despite the plate being *smaller* than the plate on the heavy bolter). No other IG weapon granted cover. Heavy weapon squads counted as basic troops under the older army building rules, so you could take an army consisting of 1 HQ squad and many++ lascannon teams.
Think about that: an IG army where EVERYONE is in full cover. I've seen it. Thirty-seven lascannons (1HQ +18 squads) that your MEQ are only hitting on a 5+. Oh, and the IG player spent the points to give every squad the ability to re-roll missed shots, so his BS3 is ends up feeling more like a BS4.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Again, more bluster and chest thumping. It is *really* dull.
This also isnt "debate" - we have asked questions and looked for evidnce, you have made assertions with no backup.
You said "put up or shut up" yet refuse to post any actual proof of what you are saying - absolutely nothing.
Am I missing something?
Did he ever post The List?
And if not... why not?
No
Because he seems to think Fatecrusher was a be all end all list.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
labmouse42 wrote: In case anyone is curious, this is how I run a fatecrusher in 6th. As I said, try it out. Its suprisingly effective.
1750 points
Fateweaver
Skulltaker on Jugg
Masque
8 Bloodcrushers w/instrument
9 flamers
9 flamers
10 plague bearers
10 plague bearers
4 screamers.
When increasing the point values, increase your numbers of screamers. At 1850, take 8 screamers. At 2000 take 14 screamers, etc...
This army is designed to table people. Its weak on troops because its goal is to either contest every one you have or just remove you from the table.
I use flamers over screams due to personal preference. Both are extremely effective. The flamers mix well with the masque as you can use her ability to group things up for the flame.
The problem with this list is the same problem with any daemon lists. You will win games, but often will lose tourneys. That's because one out of 6 games you don't get your perferred wave, and half your crap winds up deep striking excally where it should not be.
This list also has a few bad matchups. As I mentioned, triple helldrakes are a problem. You might kill everything else on the table, but those 3 helldrakes will cause big issues.
So essentially its a table cheese list where if you lose one of your deadly units (flamer or crushers) your army effectiveness is greatly diminished but still effective.
Cool.
Btw Firstborn if you had just posted a list like this it would have been a lot easier.
Ravenous D wrote: If you charged a full 10 man paladin squad with your 8 bloodcrushers, and lets assume you magically took zero casualties from shooting despite their slow speed, and lets also assume fateweaver didnt take 4 master crafted psycannons, and numerous S5 bolter shots to the face that you managed to charge paladins that were standing in the open otherwise you're I1, and lets assume there is zero halbreds after all that you get what? 32 attacks on the charge, 16 hits, 14 wounds. 2 will be ignored by the stave, lets say 6 are ignored from swords and I'll give it to you the rest go in and that Draigo didnt make it in combat. Thats 6 wounds spread out over 10 2 wound models. Paladins hammerhand up back with draigos, along with the banner and counter attack you're looking at 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, after rerolls from fateweaver (who magically is still within 6") you're still looking at 7 wounds + daemon bane. Next round you lose your strength and attack bonus, and you have to deal with Draigo in the mix.
1) Your only going to get one round before your assaulted. That means you get one round to shoot.
2) A STR 5 storm bolter has a 1/27 (2/3 * 1/2 * 1/9) chance of wounding a bloodcrusher. The 'hail of bullets' are not likely to do any damage to fatecrusher.
3) Fatecrusher also brings skulltaker on a jugg. Sometimes there will be 2 heralds, (though often your also facing the masque instead of a 2nd khorne herald)
4) You assault with fatey on the same turn you assault with the crushers. You challange draigo with fatey. Draigo will kill fatey in about 6 rounds of combat given average rolls. Fatey will spawn draigo in about the same amount of time. Before that happens though, Skulltaker will jump in the challange.
5) Skulltaker has a 35/36 chance of saving from any force weapon. Simply put, you take every hit from the paladin squad onto skulltaker who tanks em like a champ.
6) Skulltaker rends on a 4+ and inflicts instant death. Hes your carrying force to kill the paladins. You can expect to kill ~2 paladins a round on the turn you dont charge, and 3 on the turn you do. I illustrate the mathhammer below.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/listByUser/90/1943.page
So what will happen is fatecrusher will assault the paladin squad and wipe out the 10 paladins in 5 combat rounds. By then fatey will be dead, taken out of the assault by skulltaker, or spawned draigo. In every case though, its a grind-fest in the middle of the board for most of the game.
Paladins are actually a really bad matchup against fatecrusher. There are excellent matchups that give fatecrusher a hard time (triple helldrakes *cough* *cough*) but paladins are not it.
1 and 2) Shoot fateweaver, if the massive foot print of 8 juggers in front of me so is he, and I have a lot more then 4 mc psycannons and 6 storm bolters
3) Dark Excommunication, best 5pts spent ever, renders daemons useless,
4) Was talking 5th, I sold this army waaaaaay before 6th.
Here's the army I was toting and never lost to daemons with in 5th:
Draigo
libby - sword, might of titan, shrouding, hammerhand, dark excomunication
Vindicare assassin
10 Paladins
4 Mc psycannons, banner, apoth, 2 hammers, stave, 4 swords, 4 halbreds, various master crafting to make each guy individual
1 paladin - hammer
1 paladin - hammer
Storm raven.
Psyfleman dread
Idea was to let daemons go first then drop the paladins in cover and take out whatever I liked, nothing could touch the raven, and I'd hold back the 1 man squads as long as possible (somestimes throwing one in the raven so it is scoring). Fatecrusher was never a problem, First born seems to think some how those massive 60mm bases wont impede him in the slightest into getting a full charge, and you cant be everywhere with fateweaver.
Ravenous D wrote: Here's the army I was toting and never lost to daemons with in 5th:
Draigo
libby - sword, might of titan, shrouding, hammerhand, dark excomunication
Vindicare assassin
10 Paladins
4 Mc psycannons, banner, apoth, 2 hammers, stave, 4 swords, 4 halbreds, various master crafting to make each guy individual
1 paladin - hammer
1 paladin - hammer
Storm raven.
Psyfleman dread
Idea was to let daemons go first then drop the paladins in cover and take out whatever I liked, nothing could touch the raven, and I'd hold back the 1 man squads as long as possible (somestimes throwing one in the raven so it is scoring). Fatecrusher was never a problem, First born seems to think some how those massive 60mm bases wont impede him in the slightest into getting a full charge, and you cant be everywhere with fateweaver.
Isn't it funny the difference one edition makes? That paladin list that dominated late 5th edition is moderate (at best) during 6th. I would take the fatecrusher daemon list I posted against it any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.
A few changes really hurt it.
* Draigo becoming AP3
* Flyers starting off the board turn 1.
* Only being able to score 1 objective with a troop choice.
* Would allocation meaning that you can't do would allocation magic across en entire paladin squad.
And of course, daemons got flamers/scremaers which are excellent.
Ravenous D wrote: If you charged a full 10 man paladin squad with your 8 bloodcrushers, and lets assume you magically took zero casualties from shooting despite their slow speed, and lets also assume fateweaver didnt take 4 master crafted psycannons, and numerous S5 bolter shots to the face that you managed to charge paladins that were standing in the open otherwise you're I1, and lets assume there is zero halbreds after all that you get what? 32 attacks on the charge, 16 hits, 14 wounds. 2 will be ignored by the stave, lets say 6 are ignored from swords and I'll give it to you the rest go in and that Draigo didnt make it in combat. Thats 6 wounds spread out over 10 2 wound models. Paladins hammerhand up back with draigos, along with the banner and counter attack you're looking at 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, after rerolls from fateweaver (who magically is still within 6") you're still looking at 7 wounds + daemon bane. Next round you lose your strength and attack bonus, and you have to deal with Draigo in the mix.
1) Your only going to get one round before your assaulted. That means you get one round to shoot.
2) A STR 5 storm bolter has a 1/27 (2/3 * 1/2 * 1/9) chance of wounding a bloodcrusher. The 'hail of bullets' are not likely to do any damage to fatecrusher.
3) Fatecrusher also brings skulltaker on a jugg. Sometimes there will be 2 heralds, (though often your also facing the masque instead of a 2nd khorne herald)
4) You assault with fatey on the same turn you assault with the crushers. You challange draigo with fatey. Draigo will kill fatey in about 6 rounds of combat given average rolls. Fatey will spawn draigo in about the same amount of time. Before that happens though, Skulltaker will jump in the challange.
5) Skulltaker has a 35/36 chance of saving from any force weapon. Simply put, you take every hit from the paladin squad onto skulltaker who tanks em like a champ.
6) Skulltaker rends on a 4+ and inflicts instant death. Hes your carrying force to kill the paladins. You can expect to kill ~2 paladins a round on the turn you dont charge, and 3 on the turn you do. I illustrate the mathhammer below.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/listByUser/90/1943.page
So what will happen is fatecrusher will assault the paladin squad and wipe out the 10 paladins in 5 combat rounds. By then fatey will be dead, taken out of the assault by skulltaker, or spawned draigo. In every case though, its a grind-fest in the middle of the board for most of the game.
Paladins are actually a really bad matchup against fatecrusher. There are excellent matchups that give fatecrusher a hard time (triple helldrakes *cough* *cough*) but paladins are not it.
1 and 2) Shoot fateweaver, if the massive foot print of 8 juggers in front of me so is he, and I have a lot more then 4 mc psycannons and 6 storm bolters
3) Dark Excommunication, best 5pts spent ever, renders daemons useless,
4) Was talking 5th, I sold this army waaaaaay before 6th.
Here's the army I was toting and never lost to daemons with in 5th:
Draigo
libby - sword, might of titan, shrouding, hammerhand, dark excomunication
Vindicare assassin
10 Paladins
4 Mc psycannons, banner, apoth, 2 hammers, stave, 4 swords, 4 halbreds, various master crafting to make each guy individual
1 paladin - hammer
1 paladin - hammer
Storm raven.
Psyfleman dread
Idea was to let daemons go first then drop the paladins in cover and take out whatever I liked, nothing could touch the raven, and I'd hold back the 1 man squads as long as possible (somestimes throwing one in the raven so it is scoring). Fatecrusher was never a problem, First born seems to think some how those massive 60mm bases wont impede him in the slightest into getting a full charge, and you cant be everywhere with fateweaver.
A friend of mine played Draigo Wing in 5th, and I used to beat him so bad with Fatecrusher that he started tailoring by taking dark excommunication on his librarian.
It didn't matter, it turned off the power swords off on 1 squad of crushers but it is not enough. The only way that shuts down the army is if you also spammed 3x Dreadknights
Nosfey baby, let's meet up on vassal and settle this as men. Okay? I am not going to continue debating with you. It is a pointless exercise, I might as well have a discussion with my FW Greater Daemons.
Firstborn, you are a gem
So, if you beat Nos, it means you really did table everyone you've played... but if you don't you didn't?! The logic here is that winning a Vassal duel gives you credibility?
List please (I post my record, and I post my lists... I give all house rules we use, and I back up my record if asked... if you want to tout your 40k proweness, back it up with facts and support).
Nosfey baby, let's meet up on vassal and settle this as men. Okay? I am not going to continue debating with you. It is a pointless exercise, I might as well have a discussion with my FW Greater Daemons.
Firstborn, you are a gem
So, if you beat Nos, it means you really did table everyone you've played... but if you don't you didn't?! The logic here is that winning a Vassal duel gives you credibility?
List please (I post my record, and I post my lists... I give all house rules we use, and I back up my record if asked... if you want to tout your 40k proweness, back it up with facts and support).
I play so often, I don't even know what my win loss record is. But, not trying to tout my prowess. I just understand the GK\Daemon matchup really well. I guess you could call it my 40k specialty.
And, when playing with friends, I don't care if I win or loose. For example, I played a game last night and took a fluffy list because my friend was new and I didn't want him to get discouraged. Matter of
fact, I think I am going to let him beat up on me for a while. The last thing the game needs are people getting discouraged and quitting. It is hard enough to get new players into the game.
Nosfey baby, let's meet up on vassal and settle this as men. Okay? I am not going to continue debating with you. It is a pointless exercise, I might as well have a discussion with my FW Greater Daemons.
Firstborn, you are a gem
So, if you beat Nos, it means you really did table everyone you've played... but if you don't you didn't?! The logic here is that winning a Vassal duel gives you credibility?
List please (I post my record, and I post my lists... I give all house rules we use, and I back up my record if asked... if you want to tout your 40k proweness, back it up with facts and support).
I play so often, I don't even know what my win loss record is. But, not trying to tout my prowess. I just understand the GK\Daemon matchup really well. I guess you could call it my 40k specialty.
And, when playing with friends, I don't care if I win or loose. For example, I played a game last night and took a fluffy list because my friend was new and I didn't want him to get discouraged. Matter of
fact, I think I am going to let him beat up on me for a while. The last thing the game needs are people getting discouraged and quitting. It is hard enough to get new players into the game.
If you posted more like this, instead of how you had been earlier in the thread, I have no doubt people would have responded to you in a significantly different manner.
Nosfey baby, let's meet up on vassal and settle this as men. Okay? I am not going to continue debating with you. It is a pointless exercise, I might as well have a discussion with my FW Greater Daemons.
Firstborn, you are a gem
So, if you beat Nos, it means you really did table everyone you've played... but if you don't you didn't?! The logic here is that winning a Vassal duel gives you credibility?
List please (I post my record, and I post my lists... I give all house rules we use, and I back up my record if asked... if you want to tout your 40k proweness, back it up with facts and support).
I play so often, I don't even know what my win loss record is. But, not trying to tout my prowess. I just understand the GK\Daemon matchup really well. I guess you could call it my 40k specialty.
And, when playing with friends, I don't care if I win or loose. For example, I played a game last night and took a fluffy list because my friend was new and I didn't want him to get discouraged. Matter of
fact, I think I am going to let him beat up on me for a while. The last thing the game needs are people getting discouraged and quitting. It is hard enough to get new players into the game.
If you posted more like this, instead of how you had been earlier in the thread, I have no doubt people would have responded to you in a significantly different manner.
Well, you have to take the internet with a grain of salt. Sometimes posts\comments look really faked up, but they weren't meant that way.....
With that being said, I shouldn't have said girly boy & armchair general. My appologies.
Nosfey baby, let's meet up on vassal and settle this as men. Okay? I am not going to continue debating with you. It is a pointless exercise, I might as well have a discussion with my FW Greater Daemons.
Firstborn, you are a gem
So, if you beat Nos, it means you really did table everyone you've played... but if you don't you didn't?! The logic here is that winning a Vassal duel gives you credibility?
List please (I post my record, and I post my lists... I give all house rules we use, and I back up my record if asked... if you want to tout your 40k proweness, back it up with facts and support).
I play so often, I don't even know what my win loss record is. But, not trying to tout my prowess. I just understand the GK\Daemon matchup really well. I guess you could call it my 40k specialty.
And, when playing with friends, I don't care if I win or loose. For example, I played a game last night and took a fluffy list because my friend was new and I didn't want him to get discouraged. Matter of
fact, I think I am going to let him beat up on me for a while. The last thing the game needs are people getting discouraged and quitting. It is hard enough to get new players into the game.
If you posted more like this, instead of how you had been earlier in the thread, I have no doubt people would have responded to you in a significantly different manner.
Well, you have to take the internet with a grain of salt. Sometimes posts\comments look really faked up, but they weren't meant that way.....
With that being said, I shouldn't have said girly boy & armchair general. My appologies.
Wait, what is this? A person on the internet apologizing and turning out to be a decent person after all? No way!
Personally I think the Masque using the Pervane of Slaanesh (Is that the right one?). Three shots all at separate units and then forcing them to move and make a formation as you choose. And that it even gets snap shots off and can just utterly ruin an assault phase
Or Flamers of Tzeentch in general. Hell just deep striking them before was nasty, now with the wall of death and them being two wounds they are bastards
Watchersinthedark wrote: Personally I think the Masque using the Pervane of Slaanesh (Is that the right one?). Three shots all at separate units and then forcing them to move and make a formation as you choose. And that it even gets snap shots off and can just utterly ruin an assault phase
Or Flamers of Tzeentch in general. Hell just deep striking them before was nasty, now with the wall of death and them being two wounds they are bastards
Really? You think a T3/W2 non-character model that is always on her little 'ol lonesome is super cheesey?! Pavane is nowhere near as OTT as Lash was, and outside of a MoS Prince, it never hits on better than a 3+
As for Flamers, for their original 35pts/model cost, they damn better have been able to do something considering how easy they were to kill! Now? Sure, if you're facing 15-18+ in games under 2k pts they're evil, despicable things. But one unit of 9 or a pair of 4-5 strong units is hardly cause to b about them.
Wall of Death is cheesey? How about you try multi-assault them with 2+ units, or throw a horde unit of 25-30+ grunts at them. Or just bring some anti-infantry guns of your own like more bolters/flamers/multi-shot guns, etc...
Unless you're saying that us Daemon players should never be allowed to stand a chance at competing...
Watchersinthedark wrote: Personally I think the Masque using the Pervane of Slaanesh (Is that the right one?). Three shots all at separate units and then forcing them to move and make a formation as you choose. And that it even gets snap shots off and can just utterly ruin an assault phase
Or Flamers of Tzeentch in general. Hell just deep striking them before was nasty, now with the wall of death and them being two wounds they are bastards
Really? You think a T3/W2 non-character model that is always on her little 'ol lonesome is super cheesey?! Pavane is nowhere near as OTT as Lash was, and outside of a MoS Prince, it never hits on better than a 3+
As for Flamers, for their original 35pts/model cost, they damn better have been able to do something considering how easy they were to kill! Now? Sure, if you're facing 15-18+ in games under 2k pts they're evil, despicable things. But one unit of 9 or a pair of 4-5 strong units is hardly cause to b about them.
What makes the masque so good is that she can manipulate your opponents models. In 6th edition, this has a much greater effect than in 5th edition. These are some ways I have abused it in 6th.
* Grouped units together to maximize flamer coverage
* Pulled special weapons to front of unit so they are removed first as casualities
* Pulled Null Zone Librarian to front of unit so he is forced to make LoS saves
* Moved units out of difficult terrain so I am not striking on init 1
* Pulled units out of quarters (for NOVA missions) during the final turn, allowing me to secure primary objective and winning the mission.
* Moved models within assault range of my bloodcrushers.
Also, the masque becomes significantly more durable when put near fateweaver. At that point she goes from a 3++ to 8/9 chance of saving, meaning you need to do ~18 wounds to kill her. That's when shes at her most PITA.
For 100 points the masque is an amazingly good character. I take her whenever she can fit into a CSM/CD army.
I'm not saying The Mask isn't good - she most certainly is.
But honestly, she's pretty damn easy to counter and very difficult to effectively hide. Even a 10-man Tac squad can kill her a single round of shooting with a bit of luck.
And as you point out, she does kinda rely on Fatey's re-rolls to really shine, which effectively bring her upto 433pts cost to take full advantage of her abilities!
I've seen the Mask used too many times by bad players to think she's honestly cheese of anykind.
A real "cheesey" unit makes up for a player's lack of skill. (such as Purifyers in 5th due to being 'uber shooty while also being assaulty everything killers with Clensing Flame +cheap I6!) On the other hand, the Mask requires a good deal of skill to be a worthwhile investment.
Experiment 626 wrote: And as you point out, she does kinda rely on Fatey's re-rolls to really shine, which effectively bring her upto 433pts cost to take full advantage of her abilities!
A real "cheesey" unit makes up for a player's lack of skill. (such as Purifyers in 5th due to being 'uber shooty while also being assaulty everything killers with Clensing Flame +cheap I6!) On the other hand, the Mask requires a good deal of skill to be a worthwhile investment.
Well, lets be fair here. Fateweaver also brings a lot more to the table than just buffing masque
I agree that Masque takes some skill to use correctly. I'm not sure on the theory that 'cheesey' means a lack of skill is required. Some of the most abusive things in this game are combos that take a bit of skill/planning to pull off.
One example would be a grey hunter squad popping a wolf banner, then taking every AP3 hit onto a wolf guard in terminator armor, which causes every hit to bounce right off. Another would be taking skullcrusher next to fateweaver and using him to tank 10 paladins with his 35/36 chance of saving.
Those are incredible 'exploits', but are not easy.
Currently in the game today I think the 'cheeziest' unit is the beast pack of cheese. To play this well takes some skill, but its stupidly good for how cheap it is.
Really? You think a T3/W2 non-character model that is always on her little 'ol lonesome is super cheesey?!
Pavane is nowhere near as OTT as Lash was, and outside of a MoS Prince, it never hits on better than a 3+
As for Flamers, for their original 35pts/model cost, they damn better have been able to do something considering how easy they were to kill! Now? Sure, if you're facing 15-18+ in games under 2k pts they're evil, despicable things. But one unit of 9 or a pair of 4-5 strong units is hardly cause to b about them.
Wall of Death is cheesey? How about you try multi-assault them with 2+ units, or throw a horde unit of 25-30+ grunts at them. Or just bring some anti-infantry guns of your own like more bolters/flamers/multi-shot guns, etc...
Unless you're saying that us Daemon players should never be allowed to stand a chance at competing...
Well first off, Masque isn't one of the characters that you just use by herself. I've been seeing a lot of Masque followed by heavy weapons murder. When she lands and manages to pull a few squads into the wide open or even just brings them into rapid fire/assault range she's already made her points back.
As for the wall of death part, sure that's fine until it's a wall of no armour saves allowed...then yeah it kinda becomes cheese. Yeah you could multi assault them or run hordes, but that happens to be the strength of those particular tactics. It's hard to multi assault when one of your units got turned into barbecue, or when 3 units of flamers just wrecked whatever they could find. Not to mention that 3 models for what? 90 or 100 points that can murder an entire squad in one go then likely save 50% of whatever comes at them and happens to be eternal warrior fits nicely into that box.
Daemons do need an update, but I still see them holding their own quite often at my FLGS. Seems to be mostly Khorne, Nurgle/Tzeentch players here though. Only really ever see Masque as part of an allies force. And then you have to hope you have something with interceptor or you're gonna lose a couple units.
I'm not sure on the theory that 'cheesey' means a lack of skill is required. Some of the most abusive things in this game are combos that take a bit of skill/planning to pull off.
I agree there man. In all reality, every army has something that could easily be considered cheese. It's just some of them require a lot more skill to pull off then others
Dear dark ones, these are all great!
I ran into someone trying to do one at a tournie the other day and by god he almost looked liking crying when I pointed out it was illegal.
He was playing Tau. and He swan dived an Etheral off the top of a Watchtower.
He had most of his force hidden in Devilfish Transports or buildings. What he didn't mainly ran (I think he was unlucky enough to have 4 out of 5 of the units run) anyway.
Afterwards he pops out his force thinking it had preferred enemy for me to almostly gleefully inform him that only Tau units that passed the test have preferred enemy.
Poor boy looked like crying as he reread his codex too see the exact wording.
Dand218 wrote: Dear dark ones, these are all great!
I ran into someone trying to do one at a tournie the other day and by god he almost looked liking crying when I pointed out it was illegal.
He was playing Tau. and He swan dived an Etheral off the top of a Watchtower.
He had most of his force hidden in Devilfish Transports or buildings. What he didn't mainly ran (I think he was unlucky enough to have 4 out of 5 of the units run) anyway.
Afterwards he pops out his force thinking it had preferred enemy for me to almostly gleefully inform him that only Tau units that passed the test have preferred enemy.
Poor boy looked like crying as he reread his codex too see the exact wording.
The exact wording that would show that he was right, and that you were wrong?
The codex is very explicit that it applies pass or fail to all tau who take the test. It doesn't apply to the guys in the transports as per the FAQ, but the ones that fled are still Preferred Enemy.
Of course, the real problem is that he'd have to swan-dive at least twice as Dangerous Terrain only takes 1 wound off on a failure, no matter how high you fall from.
The exact wording that would show that he was right, and that you were wrong?
The codex is very explicit that it applies pass or fail to all tau who take the test. It doesn't apply to the guys in the transports as per the FAQ, but the ones that fled are still Preferred Enemy.
Of course, the real problem is that he'd have to swan-dive at least twice as Dangerous Terrain only takes 1 wound off on a failure, no matter how high you fall from.
I meant he misunderstood. He thought the ones in the Transport got it, which as you said the FAQ cleared that issue up.
We both agreed both the ones that fled and stayed had preferred enemy.
Follow me?
And I may have sniped him or something. I only remember it was during my first turn.
, but armored company was 
spam list. Warp Quake isn't a tactic at all, it's an abuse of a unforseen ineraction between two rules. Warp Quake can easily remove the Deep Strike rule from the game.
's!) and a bucketload of attacks. GO GO GADGET DEATHSTAR!!!! 
