Davespil wrote: No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.
Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.
I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.
So because you have a 'military background' you can't suspend disbelief but you can play with toy soldiers?
Davespil wrote: No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.
Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.
I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.
So because you have a 'military background' you can't suspend disbelief but you can play with toy soldiers?
Lots of people get into 40k and like Space Marines because they like sci-fi and become less enthused and certainly less interested in the background fiction once they discover it's not actually science fiction, but some sort of dystopian space fantasy with space knights, demonic forces, magic and a caricature of medieval Catholicism. i can totally get people not caring about the background fiction when they were expecting one thing and found it to be another upon closer inspection.
All those non-scifi elements you mention are the things that make 40K unique, and the reason why many people love it.
Davespil wrote: No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.
Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.
I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.
So because you have a 'military background' you can't suspend disbelief but you can play with toy soldiers?
OK buddy
I can suspend belief all day. But not logic...
Honestly, the background is a lot more logical than you think it is.
You complain about the lack of the adavances in the Imperium over 10,000 years. How long did it take the US military to stop fighting WWII style? Then how long to stop fighting like the Cold War? How long does it take for the gear/weapons that the elite operators use to filter down to the line troops?
Now, take into account the exponential size difference from the US to the Imperium and it would literally take thousands of years for gak to change.
Hey!. Why are all the Neanderthal chest thumpers going after creationists in a thread about a new space marine book? If you need to compensate by taking intellectually dishonest cheap shots at uninvolved third parties, go somewhere else.
Back OT: anyone heard the fluff explanations for Centurions? I'm very curious as to what they are.
Lobukia wrote: Hey!. Why are all the Neanderthal chest thumpers going after creationists in a thread about a new space marine book? If you need to compensate by taking intellectually dishonest cheap shots at uninvolved third parties, go somewhere else.
Back OT: anyone heard the fluff explanations for Centurions? I'm very curious as to what they are.
I think it was that the built a psuedo TDA exoskeleton for the Marines because they no longer knew how to make new TDA.
Davespil wrote: No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.
Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.
I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.
So because you have a 'military background' you can't suspend disbelief but you can play with toy soldiers?
OK buddy
I can suspend belief all day. But not logic...
Honestly, the background is a lot more logical than you think it is.
You complain about the lack of the adavances in the Imperium over 10,000 years. How long did it take the US military to stop fighting WWII style? Then how long to stop fighting like the Cold War? How long does it take for the gear/weapons that the elite operators use to filter down to the line troops?
Now, take into account the exponential size difference from the US to the Imperium and it would literally take thousands of years for gak to change.
I hate to have hijacked this thread but we made significate advances in warfare between WWII (1941-1945 (for us)) and the Korean War (1950-1953). Helicopters, guided missiles, close air support, and jets... Just to name a few. And military technology advances much faster in war-time than not. In 1000 years think of the advances that we can make. And with the internet (or what even comes after that) think of how fast that information can be disseminated. Why would everything come from a central location? Would there not be engineers on every planet? Constantly tweeking and upgrading and redesigning to make things better? Humans are constantly moving foward in technology and science. And we will continue to advance our understanding of technology until there aren't any of us left. Either as a master of technology or its slave, we will continue to move foward.
Davespil wrote: Why would everything come from a central location? Would there not be engineers on every planet? Constantly tweeking and upgrading and redesigning to make things better? Humans are constantly moving foward in technology and science. And we will continue to advance our understanding of technology until there aren't any of us left. Either as a master of technology or its slave, we will continue to move foward.
Because daemons.
Humanity did the logical/practical thing for 28,000 years and it didn't work out super great in the end so they went back to being technologically superstitious and backwards, which is not all that unreasonable when making a 5% more efficient lasgun power cell results in your machinery becoming possessed and your planet getting destroyed by daemons. This is a pretty core tenant of the 40k fluff, you might want to check out a main fluff source :^)
Davespil wrote: No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.
Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.
I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.
So because you have a 'military background' you can't suspend disbelief but you can play with toy soldiers?
OK buddy
I can suspend belief all day. But not logic...
Honestly, the background is a lot more logical than you think it is.
You complain about the lack of the adavances in the Imperium over 10,000 years. How long did it take the US military to stop fighting WWII style? Then how long to stop fighting like the Cold War? How long does it take for the gear/weapons that the elite operators use to filter down to the line troops?
Now, take into account the exponential size difference from the US to the Imperium and it would literally take thousands of years for gak to change.
I hate to have hijacked this thread but we made significate advances in warfare between WWII (1941-1945 (for us)) and the Korean War (1950-1953). Helicopters, guided missiles, close air support, and jets... Just to name a few. And military technology advances much faster in war-time than not. In 1000 years think of the advances that we can make. And with the internet (or what even comes after that) think of how fast that information can be disseminated. Why would everything come from a central location? Would there not be engineers on every planet? Constantly tweeking and upgrading and redesigning to make things better? Humans are constantly moving foward in technology and science. And we will continue to advance our understanding of technology until there aren't any of us left. Either as a master of technology or its slave, we will continue to move foward.
because when you start tweaking how things work in this setting, someone shoots you in the face for violating the machine spirit.
And the cost/gain benefit has turned in favour of just losing men. Why expend expensive tech in 40K, which they have, when its way cheaper just to get a million guard massacred.
Any word on the cover art? From what Ive seen its going to be ultramarines on the standard and on one of the limited covers?
Davespil wrote: No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.
Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.
I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.
So because you have a 'military background' you can't suspend disbelief but you can play with toy soldiers?
OK buddy
I can suspend belief all day. But not logic...
Honestly, the background is a lot more logical than you think it is.
You complain about the lack of the adavances in the Imperium over 10,000 years. How long did it take the US military to stop fighting WWII style? Then how long to stop fighting like the Cold War? How long does it take for the gear/weapons that the elite operators use to filter down to the line troops?
Now, take into account the exponential size difference from the US to the Imperium and it would literally take thousands of years for gak to change.
I hate to have hijacked this thread but we made significate advances in warfare between WWII (1941-1945 (for us)) and the Korean War (1950-1953). Helicopters, guided missiles, close air support, and jets... Just to name a few. And military technology advances much faster in war-time than not. In 1000 years think of the advances that we can make. And with the internet (or what even comes after that) think of how fast that information can be disseminated. Why would everything come from a central location? Would there not be engineers on every planet? Constantly tweeking and upgrading and redesigning to make things better? Humans are constantly moving foward in technology and science. And we will continue to advance our understanding of technology until there aren't any of us left. Either as a master of technology or its slave, we will continue to move foward.
This is all covered in the background that you don't like and don't want to read. Why are you cluttering up this already cluster F****D thread with this debate? If you don't like the background or rules play something else or better yet complain about it in the proper topic not the news and rumors section please.
Davespil wrote: And we will continue to advance our understanding of technology until there aren't any of us left. Either as a master of technology or its slave, we will continue to move foward.
You see, that's the problem. Fewer and fewer of us truly understand much of the technology we're surrounded by. I understand the basic principles of a steam engine, and could probably build a basic one given enough time and supplies, but there's no way I could ever build this amazing piece of engineering. And that's one of the fundamental foundations upon which 40K is built: the people how understand the technology are long gone, only the people who know who to maintain and build the machines (i.e. the factory workers, not the engineers) are all that's left.
@Davespill the Greek dark ages, fall of Cahokia, Mongolia, and the European Middle Ages would like a word with you (there's more, but that's just off the top of my head).
I think we can accept following to be true:
- There's no conceivable way Imperial worlds would not have advanced more after several *millennia*.
- The impossible stagnation serves as both literary flavor and conviently ties in with real-world product releases and manufacturing concerns(Rhinos/Razorbacks/Whirlwinds/Vindicators/Predators all based on the same STC...because maybe it's cheaper to produce those molds that way).
- All of this is off-topic.
Davespil wrote: No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.
Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.
I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.
I have a military background to and guess what, I think 40k fluff is not over-the-top enough militarily.
Most of the allure of the 40k universe fluff is the fact that technology, society, etc. DID become stagnant, almost regressive in several aspects. Although I agree this is far fetched by modern standards, it certainly makes for better fiction and storytelling in the 40k game. In other words, the fact that the "unthinkable" (complete stagnation of mankind on a galactic scale) took place, makes for an interesting game to play in, not to mention good fiction to write and think about. If things did progress logically, if humans did advance in a linear fashion for 38,000 years, they would be ridiculously powerful or perhaps near perfect beings. That doesn't make for a very rich gaming background. Chances are, there wouldn't be any enemies left ot fight due to destruction or assimilation into the Imperium. That, to me, isn't a very fun game to play in. If so, I would reroll Tau.
The current Imperium reminds me of the last days of the Roman Empire- an empire under seige on all sides, struggling socially, politically, religiously, economically and barely clinging to it's borders.
Davespil wrote: No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.
Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.
I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.
So because you have a 'military background' you can't suspend disbelief but you can play with toy soldiers?
OK buddy
I can suspend belief all day. But not logic...
Honestly, the background is a lot more logical than you think it is.
You complain about the lack of the adavances in the Imperium over 10,000 years. How long did it take the US military to stop fighting WWII style? Then how long to stop fighting like the Cold War? How long does it take for the gear/weapons that the elite operators use to filter down to the line troops?
Now, take into account the exponential size difference from the US to the Imperium and it would literally take thousands of years for gak to change.
I hate to have hijacked this thread but we made significate advances in warfare between WWII (1941-1945 (for us)) and the Korean War (1950-1953). Helicopters, guided missiles, close air support, and jets... Just to name a few. And military technology advances much faster in war-time than not. In 1000 years think of the advances that we can make. And with the internet (or what even comes after that) think of how fast that information can be disseminated. Why would everything come from a central location? Would there not be engineers on every planet? Constantly tweeking and upgrading and redesigning to make things better? Humans are constantly moving foward in technology and science. And we will continue to advance our understanding of technology until there aren't any of us left. Either as a master of technology or its slave, we will continue to move foward.
you need to read up on your history matey, the 'dark ages of technology' in the imperium are based on the european dark ages, when europe went from the roman empire - the most technologically, socially, politically and militarily advanced organisation the world had ever seen; into the dark ages - where virtually all scientific and mathematic knowledge was forgotten and society essentially began again.
It is by no means assured that anyone in the year 3000 will know about nuclear power, or space-time, or how to build a computer. Humanity can go backwards as well as forwards, and the decline from 30k to 40k isn't actually all that bad, especially compared to the actual dark ages.
Davespil wrote: No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.
Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.
I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.
So because you have a 'military background' you can't suspend disbelief but you can play with toy soldiers?
OK buddy
I can suspend belief all day. But not logic...
Honestly, the background is a lot more logical than you think it is.
You complain about the lack of the adavances in the Imperium over 10,000 years. How long did it take the US military to stop fighting WWII style? Then how long to stop fighting like the Cold War? How long does it take for the gear/weapons that the elite operators use to filter down to the line troops?
Now, take into account the exponential size difference from the US to the Imperium and it would literally take thousands of years for gak to change.
I hate to have hijacked this thread but we made significate advances in warfare between WWII (1941-1945 (for us)) and the Korean War (1950-1953). Helicopters, guided missiles, close air support, and jets... Just to name a few. And military technology advances much faster in war-time than not. In 1000 years think of the advances that we can make. And with the internet (or what even comes after that) think of how fast that information can be disseminated. Why would everything come from a central location? Would there not be engineers on every planet? Constantly tweeking and upgrading and redesigning to make things better? Humans are constantly moving foward in technology and science. And we will continue to advance our understanding of technology until there aren't any of us left. Either as a master of technology or its slave, we will continue to move foward.
you need to read up on your history matey, the 'dark ages of technology' in the imperium are based on the european dark ages, when europe went from the roman empire - the most technologically, socially, politically and militarily advanced organisation the world had ever seen; into the dark ages - where virtually all scientific and mathematic knowledge was forgotten and society essentially began again.
It is by no means assured that anyone in the year 3000 will know about nuclear power, or space-time, or how to build a computer. Humanity can go backwards as well as forwards, and the decline from 30k to 40k isn't actually all that bad, especially compared to the actual dark ages.
Sorry but I have to say this, as a history major, The entire concept of the Dark Ages is a crock of ****. I would list the reasons why, but 1: It would take a 10 page essay to do so, 2. I'm not being graded so I don't see the point. and 3. I have to go in half an hour.
Just be content with knowing there is no such thing as the "dark ages." The term was created in the 14th century by renaissance historian revisionists who were basically Greco-Roman fanboys...
Come on guys, let's all try and stay on topic. We're so close to this 'dex, it'd be a shame to have to restart our rumor thread now because of a lock.
Can't wait to pick over the minutiae in detail. Has anyone heard more concrete info on the chapter relics, or is it still all conjecture? I skimmed several pages, but I admit that I came in late and haven't found it.
Jimsolo wrote: Come on guys, let's all try and stay on topic. We're so close to this 'dex, it'd be a shame to have to restart our rumor thread now because of a lock.
Can't wait to pick over the minutiae in detail. Has anyone heard more concrete info on the chapter relics, or is it still all conjecture? I skimmed several pages, but I admit that I came in late and haven't found it.
All we know about the relics is that there are going to be 6 of them, they range from 25-65 points, one is armor and one is a stormshield, and one of them gives EW.
Davespil wrote: No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.
Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.
I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.
So because you have a 'military background' you can't suspend disbelief but you can play with toy soldiers?
OK buddy
I can suspend belief all day. But not logic...
Honestly, the background is a lot more logical than you think it is.
You complain about the lack of the adavances in the Imperium over 10,000 years. How long did it take the US military to stop fighting WWII style? Then how long to stop fighting like the Cold War? How long does it take for the gear/weapons that the elite operators use to filter down to the line troops?
Now, take into account the exponential size difference from the US to the Imperium and it would literally take thousands of years for gak to change.
I hate to have hijacked this thread but we made significate advances in warfare between WWII (1941-1945 (for us)) and the Korean War (1950-1953). Helicopters, guided missiles, close air support, and jets... Just to name a few. And military technology advances much faster in war-time than not. In 1000 years think of the advances that we can make. And with the internet (or what even comes after that) think of how fast that information can be disseminated. Why would everything come from a central location? Would there not be engineers on every planet? Constantly tweeking and upgrading and redesigning to make things better? Humans are constantly moving foward in technology and science. And we will continue to advance our understanding of technology until there aren't any of us left. Either as a master of technology or its slave, we will continue to move foward.
This is where I have to politely disagree ... ever heard of the Dark Ages? This is not some mythical thing in human history, it actually happened.
It was called the Dark Ages because for 400 years science did not progress, but it actually regressed due to the political power held by the church. (Side note ... I am knock knocking any political beliefs at all, just pointing out that people in power want to STAY in power and the church had power a plenty at the time.) I would think that this is perhaps where the idea of a monumental stall in human expansion and discovery comes from in the 40k universe.
Honestly, if you said that the world was revolving around the sun about 600 years ago ... they would have flayed your skin off and set you afire as a heretic ... this was only 600 years ago?!?
I have a military background to and guess what, I think 40k fluff is not over-the-top enough militarily.
I want Chainsaw guns personally.
You're only saying that because you don't have one of these:
I think if you order now you'll get a second one free plus a matching set of steak knives.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Robbo97 wrote: When are we going to get some definitive prices in AUSSIE $$$$?
Just bend over and grab your ankles, you know it aint going to be pretty whatever it is.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also nice that mk6 torsos have now been confirmed for the tac box. Pity that they resemble the FW ones with the separate chest plastron rather than the solid front they should have like the mk5.
"Telion:
- Chapter Tactics Ultramarines
- Same points cost
- Same rules"
Does this mean that unless you are ultramarines or have ulttramarines allies, that you can't take telion? This will really suck as I rely on him for my quadgun and scouts behind my aegis line.
I've been trying to search through this rumor post for answers and the most I got was:
"As for Telion, it even says in his fluff blurb that he goes and hangs out with other chapters that are close to the Ultramarines. Likely, they too follow the Ultramarines Doctrines. (But this is Okay, since if you are using Scouts, you'll probably be using Raven Guard or something - and Telion's stealth would be wasted)"
But I don't understand, is telion's squad using ultramarine rules, just telion, the whole army, or nobody in the army? Can he be taken by, say, crimson fists?
Ryan_A wrote: Does this mean that unless you are ultramarines or have ulttramarines allies, that you can't take telion? This will really suck as I rely on him for my quadgun and scouts behind my aegis line.
Ryan_A wrote: "Telion:
- Chapter Tactics Ultramarines
- Same points cost
- Same rules"
Does this mean that unless you are ultramarines or have ulttramarines allies, that you can't take telion? This will really suck as I rely on him for my quadgun and scouts behind my aegis line.
Do what Tyranid players or any good General would do. Adapt.
You can take him, you just need to be using UM CT. (I think they are called chapter tactics.)
sigh, even dakka is not free of liberal hogwash. I love how only in the past 50 years have we decided that the dark ages didn't happen...even though more or less every educated person in the entire middle ages spent all their time lamenting its downfall.
Then there is the reinnacence - literally the redescovering of ancient greek and roman manuscripts regarding mathamatics and architecture that simply was not known before.
Plus the professional roman army, which was quite clearly superior to the fuedal levies that replaced it. Or do you think that a peasant with a stick is a match for a professional soldier in a chain iron shirt? The saddle was the only real advantage that the dark ages had, and that was stolen from the middle east.
Plus the levels of industrial activity that dwarfed anything that came after it, and was only surpassed at the outbreak of the industrial revolution.
xruslanx wrote: sigh, even dakka is not free of liberal hogwash. I love how only in the past 50 years have we decided that the dark ages didn't happen...even though more or less every educated person in the entire middle ages spent all their time lamenting its downfall.
Then there is the reinnacence - literally the redescovering of ancient greek and roman manuscripts regarding mathamatics and architecture that simply was not known before.
Plus the professional roman army, which was quite clearly superior to the fuedal levies that replaced it. Or do you think that a peasant with a stick is a match for a professional soldier in a chain iron shirt? The saddle was the only real advantage that the dark ages had, and that was stolen from the middle east.
Plus the levels of industrial activity that dwarfed anything that came after it, and was only surpassed at the outbreak of the industrial revolution.
But what did the romans ever do for us, eh?
Please, can we just stay on topic. Parody posts like this might be funny, but aren't really in the scope of what we are interested in. I could research and submit so many posts analyzing the society and politics of the 41st millennium that it would choke every tube into this internet, but it won't help me decide what to do with my scouts.
Ryan_A wrote: "Telion:
- Chapter Tactics Ultramarines
- Same points cost
- Same rules"
Does this mean that unless you are ultramarines or have ulttramarines allies, that you can't take telion? This will really suck as I rely on him for my quadgun and scouts behind my aegis line.
Do what Tyranid players or any good General would do. Adapt.
You can take him, you just need to be using UM CT. (I think they are called chapter tactics.)
Well damn, time to post him up on ebay than. Just bought him a month or so ago too.
Ryan_A wrote: "Telion:
- Chapter Tactics Ultramarines
- Same points cost
- Same rules"
Does this mean that unless you are ultramarines or have ulttramarines allies, that you can't take telion? This will really suck as I rely on him for my quadgun and scouts behind my aegis line.
Do what Tyranid players or any good General would do. Adapt.
You can take him, you just need to be using UM CT. (I think they are called chapter tactics.)
Well damn, time to post him up on ebay than. Just bought him a month or so ago too.
Why not convert/paint him up to fit your army and use him as a cool Sergeant/Vet Sergeant?
Ryan_A wrote: "Telion:
- Chapter Tactics Ultramarines
- Same points cost
- Same rules"
Does this mean that unless you are ultramarines or have ulttramarines allies, that you can't take telion? This will really suck as I rely on him for my quadgun and scouts behind my aegis line.
Do what Tyranid players or any good General would do. Adapt.
You can take him, you just need to be using UM CT. (I think they are called chapter tactics.)
Well damn, time to post him up on ebay than. Just bought him a month or so ago too.
Considering your thread about wishing to include a Librarian in your crimson fists army, why not grab a UM Librarian (Or Tigurius) and an UM scout squad with Telion?
Ryan_A wrote: Well damn, time to post him up on ebay than. Just bought him a month or so ago too.
Or you could keep him, remove the Us and paint him up in your preferred colours and use him as the scout Sgt? That way you can also use him if you decides to try the UM CTs down the track.
Ryan_A wrote: "Telion:
- Chapter Tactics Ultramarines
- Same points cost
- Same rules"
Does this mean that unless you are ultramarines or have ulttramarines allies, that you can't take telion? This will really suck as I rely on him for my quadgun and scouts behind my aegis line.
Do what Tyranid players or any good General would do. Adapt.
You can take him, you just need to be using UM CT. (I think they are called chapter tactics.)
Well damn, time to post him up on ebay than. Just bought him a month or so ago too.
Considering your thread about wishing to include a Librarian in your crimson fists army, why not grab a UM Librarian (Or Tigurius) and an UM scout squad with Telion?
Thank you, I think my attachment best explains my reaction!
anyone with real world military experience should be well aquainted with accepting logical fallacies...
hahahahaha...
the Dark Ages seems to be a very European thing...
the Arabs, the Chinese, and the Japanese were all making scientific and technological advances throughout the European Middle Age...
of course, 40K is written from the European perspective...
on topic: 3 more days until the White Dwarf drops...
should be interesting to read the design articles, and the batttle report...
we should also be able to check out the sample pages from the Codex on iBooks Friday night...
i'm looking forward to see how much new fluff we get for chapters like the Salamanders and the Iron Hands...
xruslanx wrote: sigh, even dakka is not free of liberal hogwash. I love how only in the past 50 years have we decided that the dark ages didn't happen...even though more or less every educated person in the entire middle ages spent all their time lamenting its downfall.
Then there is the reinnacence - literally the redescovering of ancient greek and roman manuscripts regarding mathamatics and architecture that simply was not known before.
Plus the professional roman army, which was quite clearly superior to the fuedal levies that replaced it. Or do you think that a peasant with a stick is a match for a professional soldier in a chain iron shirt? The saddle was the only real advantage that the dark ages had, and that was stolen from the middle east.
Plus the levels of industrial activity that dwarfed anything that came after it, and was only surpassed at the outbreak of the industrial revolution.
But what did the romans ever do for us, eh?
The ancient Celts had saddles which the Romans copied off them.
Please look at church/Frankish style architecture. This is what today is referred to as Gothic stye and seems to be the preferred style for 40K. It was this Germanic style that dominated church buildings from the end of the 'Dark Ages' through to the Renaissance.
The Renaissance (rebirth) was a move towards the cultures and art of the ancient world. Gothic style was seen as barbaric as it wasn't Roman or Greek. As the Goths were seen as barbarians, their name was given to this style as an insult. It was also at this time that the concept of the middle ages was developed. The middle ages being the period between the Roman Empire and the Reborn classical civilization - the bit in the middle in other words that we now aren't going to talk about.
The reason people are moving away from considering the Dark Ages as such is because more is now known about that time and they're not as primitive as people first thought. Populations were rising, new towns were being created, Christianity was replacing paganism, but there was always this idea that the ancient world was superior, kind of how people in the 40K universe look back at the time before the heresy as a superior time to live.
Despite the muslim world's vaunted civilization, they never created anything akin to the ancient cities and aside from some mosques, never truly matched the architecture even of the early middle ages - it's a bit of a myth that they were so advanced. Their true advantage lay in controlling the major trade routes between Europe, Africa and Asia. They actually cut Europe off from the rest of the world which is why Columbus and others were keen to use ships to find new sources of trade which led to the "discovery" of the Americas and then the rest of the world.
Sorry that was off topic, but this is important as there is a lot of sterotypes tied up in medieval Europe and they often end up in 40K scenarios too.
Marthike wrote: can someone upload the leaked WD pictures (the new ones) on dakka since I am blocked :(
Pretty much what has been seen so far but show various chapter colours.
The sgt here shows the new mk6 torso.
The rest of the pictures are some new art work and some battle report.
When the official release comes out in a couple of days we'll have lots of good pictures to see.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
davou wrote: if its important; move that gak to another thread.
Hey sherlock, if I move it to another thread then I can't reply to the poster with a horrid grasp of history here now can I.
Please stay on topic and if you want to discuss the Dark Ages, creationism or imperialistic advances throughout history---please move such talk to the OT forum. General warning for the thread--any further OT discussion will have this warning in consideration when it is removed.
SickSix wrote: Those two helmets on the left Vanguard look new. But due to paint job it is hard to tell what they actually look like.
They're new.
Sgt in the middle has a crusader type helm with eagle which is the same as the sgt in the pic above where the artists has painted a big cross over his face.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Do people deliberately use flashes on "leaked" pics?
They keep releasing things like Codex: Space Marines and people keep finding out just how silly it all is. The librarian with skull faced flying baby should make things nice and clear for everyone just what 40k is about. For some, it's fun, for others it's a disappointment when they thought they were getting into a sci-fi game.
I like though, that fluff is optional. that you can get the models you want and play with the rules you want and have the story be... whatever you want.
The new Sternguard look pretty good, but at that price, i think I'd get Forgeworld Heresy stuff as I like 30k universe better than the 40k one.
After looking at the changes I think competitively marines will remain in the same spot. Do you guys see anything that is game changing? Don't get me wrong their are great players who will win with it but, to the average player the changes will not equal out to more wins.
Crazyterran wrote: Anyone else notice that there's two Combi-plasmas in that one DA squad box?
Good to know there should be at least two Combi-Plasmas in there. (Here's hopin there's at least two of each!)
I don't think that's a picture of a new DA squad box but a squad built using components from several different kits. We'll be lucky to get multiple combi-weapons in one box from GW as usual.
This release has really started to get me thinking about unusual applications for this codex. This book is going to have a very wide variety of tactics, builds, and strategies.
Honestly, Chaos just ought to use this codex.
Hear me out. The Chaos marines have a pretty bland, underwhelming codex, and these guys are supposed to be on the cusp of destroying the Imperium? The new units aren't wildly exciting - Warp Talons are overpriced and vulnerable, Mutilators are slow and have too few attacks, the daemon engines have low WS/BS to be major threats, Hellbrutes are wonderful exploding statues, and cultists couldn't hold an objective if they were nailed to it. The only new unit that would suck to lose is the Helldrake.
Loyalist Marines have everything their heretic counterparts need. They have anti-air. They have ATSKNF. They will have tactics allowing more distinct armies with a wide variety of stategies. They have better Land Raiders. They have Drop Pods.
Get inventive with your fluff, and it will make sense. Iron Warriors using Iron Hands tactics or taking advantage of that UM Devastator oath? Makes sense to me. You know what Chaos Legion, like the Black Templars, would possess an incredible crusading style? Word Bearers. Night Lords and Raven Guard. The Imperial Fists sure are stubborn, just like The Flawless Host, who are so arrogant they can't see themselves failing. It's not very hard.
Already have a painted Chaos army? That Forgefiend just might make a good Predator. Those Helldrakes could be Stormtalons. Those Obliterators could be Centurions. Get creative. Convert stuff. Make those traitors competitive, and thumb your nose at the corpse Emporer by using his own tactics against him!
As for the new White Dwarf, I don't see us getting much more than pictures. The descriptions tend to be brief, and the battle reports don't give realistic, balanced games. It's just another episode of Whose Gunline is it, Anyway?, where the lists are made up and the points don't matter.
Crazyterran wrote: Anyone else notice that there's two Combi-plasmas in that one DA squad box?
Good to know there should be at least two Combi-Plasmas in there. (Here's hopin there's at least two of each!)
I don't think that's a picture of a new DA squad box but a squad built using components from several different kits. We'll be lucky to get multiple combi-weapons in one box from GW as usual.
I meant the DA Squad... in the box.
Since for some reason they are showing DAs for the Space Marine release.
Creationism aside (and hopefully less of a tangent) does anyone have any idea if we'll be seeing a price rise with this release? I haven't heard any rumours, but the whole dire avenger thing with the eldar release has made me nervous.
.....The librarian with skull faced flying baby should make things nice and clear for everyone just what 40k is about.....
Releasing models based on fluff written in 3rd ed.?
Hate the Cherub all you want, but it's not anything new (aside from actually getting a model). I personally like the little dude and can't wait to get it.
To me, things like this strike up fun conversation during games when a player asks WTH is on my Librarian.
My wallet is really going to lose some weight in the next few weeks.
.....The librarian with skull faced flying baby should make things nice and clear for everyone just what 40k is about....
Releasing models based on fluff written in 3rd ed.?
Hate the Cherub all you want, but it's not anything new (aside from actually getting a model). I personally like the little dude and can't wait to get it.
To me, things like this strike up fun conversation during games when a player asks WTH is on my Librarian.
My wallet is really going to lose some weight in the next few weeks.
Yeah, I dig him too. Then again I like everything that comes out for 40k. I like my game full of stuff that's so over the top it breaks the meter and becomes awesome because of it. Forget 11, I like my 40k going to 11,000.
Yes, I even think the Lord of Skulls is kinda awesome.
Crazyterran wrote: Anyone else notice that there's two Combi-plasmas in that one DA squad box?
Good to know there should be at least two Combi-Plasmas in there. (Here's hopin there's at least two of each!)
I don't think that's a picture of a new DA squad box but a squad built using components from several different kits. We'll be lucky to get multiple combi-weapons in one box from GW as usual.
I meant the DA Squad... in the box.
Since for some reason they are showing DAs for the Space Marine release.
I was wondering about that one myself, and that was mostly "why are there filthy motorcycle emo Dark Angels on my new codex"
Zappit wrote: This release has really started to get me thinking about unusual applications for this codex. This book is going to have a very wide variety of tactics, builds, and strategies.
Honestly, Chaos just ought to use this codex.
Hear me out. The Chaos marines have a pretty bland, underwhelming codex, and these guys are supposed to be on the cusp of destroying the Imperium? The new units aren't wildly exciting - Warp Talons are overpriced and vulnerable, Mutilators are slow and have too few attacks, the daemon engines have low WS/BS to be major threats, Hellbrutes are wonderful exploding statues, and cultists couldn't hold an objective if they were nailed to it. The only new unit that would suck to lose is the Helldrake.
Loyalist Marines have everything their heretic counterparts need. They have anti-air. They have ATSKNF. They will have tactics allowing more distinct armies with a wide variety of stategies. They have better Land Raiders. They have Drop Pods.
Get inventive with your fluff, and it will make sense. Iron Warriors using Iron Hands tactics or taking advantage of that UM Devastator oath? Makes sense to me. You know what Chaos Legion, like the Black Templars, would possess an incredible crusading style? Word Bearers. Night Lords and Raven Guard. The Imperial Fists sure are stubborn, just like The Flawless Host, who are so arrogant they can't see themselves failing. It's not very hard.
Already have a painted Chaos army? That Forgefiend just might make a good Predator. Those Helldrakes could be Stormtalons. Those Obliterators could be Centurions. Get creative. Convert stuff. Make those traitors competitive, and thumb your nose at the corpse Emporer by using his own tactics against him!
As for the new White Dwarf, I don't see us getting much more than pictures. The descriptions tend to be brief, and the battle reports don't give realistic, balanced games. It's just another episode of Whose Gunline is it, Anyway?, where the lists are made up and the points don't matter.
I've been advocating count as for CSM ever since that trash of a 6th edition codex came out. Out of all the codexs, CSM should have gotten unique legion rules just like the ones in this book. I for one will be using IH for my IW. Alot of people tend to look down on count as, but if everything is what you see I don't see the problem.
Woke up and had to read through about 5 pages of off topic crap - thanks.
Seriously though, why are they showing a DA veteran squad for a SM release? Someone mentioned that they're made from the Sternguard set. Does that mean no more DA veterans box?
They're showing DA because the vanilla boxes have been used to expand more specific chapters forever.
Go look at the Blood angels army section, and take a look at their tac squad. Its not even painted red, its UM. The Vanilla boxes are the ones that they get to sell to five different codex holders in one go.
.....The librarian with skull faced flying baby should make things nice and clear for everyone just what 40k is about.....
Releasing models based on fluff written in 3rd ed.?
Hate the Cherub all you want, but it's not anything new (aside from actually getting a model). I personally like the little dude and can't wait to get it.
To me, things like this strike up fun conversation during games when a player asks WTH is on my Librarian.
My wallet is really going to lose some weight in the next few weeks.
Yeah, I dig him too. Then again I like everything that comes out for 40k. I like my game full of stuff that's so over the top it breaks the meter and becomes awesome because of it. Forget 11, I like my 40k going to 11,000.
Yes, I even think the Lord of Skulls is kinda awesome.
that's too bad. sorry to hear that.
you could always try dunking your models in glue and throwing them into a bin full of random bits.
that cherub looks slowed. In the artwork the cherubs look passable but when it's actually on a model, it's just... terrible. it would be the first thing my hobby knife slices off.
Seriously guys? These things have been part and parcel of the setting for at least 20 years. I for one am happy for every one of those baroque and weird elements that they bring into that (instead of any annoying modern military tech wankery).
(Edit: That weird - at first I see my post twice, then I edit the second one and there's only the edited one left?)
Bomster wrote: Seriously guys? These things have been part and parcel of the setting for at least 20 years. I for one am happy for every one of those baroque and weird elements that they bring into that (instead of any annoying modern military tech wankery).
Many times this....
Not sure why it's so surprising that they are making models with components that have been in the fluff since 3rd. ed.
It's a cherub....and it's awesome.
I wish they would make a tech marine model with them as servitors.
-------
I'm starting to notice how the new 'dex is applying the "forge your own narrative" more and more. While the Salamanders only have the 1 SC, making a Chapter Master (or any other character) match the fluff with wargear and relics doesn't seem too far fetched -- while this could be done in 5th, the addition of the chapter tactics make the vanilla characters "feel" more like the chapter I'll be playing.
I anxiously await being able to try out all the different combinations of tactics this book may be opening up.
Bomster wrote: Seriously guys? These things have been part and parcel of the setting for at least 20 years. I for one am happy for every one of those baroque and weird elements that they bring into that (instead of any annoying modern military tech wankery).
Many times this....
Not sure why it's so surprising that they are making models with components that have been in the fluff since 3rd. ed.
It's a cherub....and it's awesome.
I wish they would make a tech marine model with them as servitors.
I'm sayin'. That librarian is kicking. Not only have I desired a model with one of those creepy little cherubs on it since I first saw them in the margins, I also love how that librarian is rockin' that pimp cane.
I'd been engaged in some surprisingly civil discussions on Dakka this past week or so, and had idly wondered where all the toxic invective had gone to. Now I've found it.
Yeah, anyone wierded out by cyber-cherubs must have been suffering some form of selective blindness for the last decade or so, because they've been plastered all over the page margins of rulebooks and the artworks for that whole time.
Now, I'm not a huge fan of the Librarian cherub myself, his face looks less "sinister" and more "derp", but unless I can find it as bitz on ebay fairly soon I'll probably end up buying the Master of Marches just for that scrollbearer cherub(if I can find it at a discount online of course).
This thread has been odd, I never realised how many people play 40K but apparently hate the art, background, and themes the whole game is based on.
I'm new to all of this, but from what I can see and have read, the cherubs and a lot of similar imagery is part of the whole 40k mythos.
I for one really liked the cherubs and aside from the fact, that the first one is Finecast, would love to have them in my collection. You gotta admit they look a hell of a lot better than for example those DA's with smoke coming from their backpacks...
What is with the design change to corvus helmets? It started with the Ravenwing Command Squad box and it looks like the one in the Sternguard box is the same. I really dislike the horizontal vents, they throw off the whole look, at least there's none of the bizarre scaffolding on he helmet that came with the RCS.
More cherubs, servo skulls and weird robed people taking notes on rubricising skulls in the middle of battlefields for me, please – I love the aesthetic
As to the corvus helmet vents, that's an alternative design that dates back to Rogue Trader, notably the front cover:
I think the popularity of the plastic marines, which only had the vertical slits, gave the impression that the mark VI was more uniform than was probably the case (background-wise). Similarly, the new Mark VI torso has a single tube running up to a central plate, from which three tubes emerge. This was the design on the original metals, but not on the plastics (who had three tubes emerging directly from the belt).
TL;DR Not a design change, but a reference to the early artworks.
I've been following the thread fairly lightly, so I may have missed this – but if not, does anyone have any specific details on the successor Chapters covered? I'd like to know exactly who's mentioned, and in what sort of detail. A sentence or two each? A paragraph? A page?
Hmm, a Black Templars Chapter Master with the EW relic, 3++ and a Thunder Hammer would murder the everliving crap out of most things in a challenge. Although he'd have slightly less oomph than our current Master of Sanctity on the charge, he'd have an extra wound, real Eternal Warrior and rerolls all the time in challenges. Screw the Emperor's Champion, I'm getting a Marshal!
kb305 wrote: it looks fine on saint Celestine, looks good even
but in my opinion cupid on space marines looks very bad.
That sounds like a case of your opinion being coloured by how you've chosen to frame your view. Think less "cupid" and more "baroque religious devotional art come to life in the form of spiteful vat-grown cyber-constructs with built-in lasers"
Agreed – and it's worth noting that the GW sculptors aren't just dropping them in willy-nilly. Putti have a long history of symbolism in art. There's an interesting article through this link:
http://www.ringlingdocents.org/putto.htm
I imagine the GW art and design teams have put a lot of thought into their inclusion.
just like to chime in that i think the cherubs look sweet. They are very much a part of the middle age theological culture that plays a huge part in 40k, and play a large part in the background fluff.
Apologist - thanks for that. I thought it might be a retro throwback, but, given that even forgeworld uses the more well established design (for the moment, at least), I'm surprised that it's being introduced.
kb305 wrote: that's too bad. sorry to hear that.
you could always try dunking your models in glue and throwing them into a bin full of random bits.
that cherub looks slowed. In the artwork the cherubs look passable but when it's actually on a model, it's just... terrible. it would be the first thing my hobby knife slices off.
Nothing to feel sorry about. And I rather like taking pride in doing a good job in my model construction so no throwing glue into my bits box and shaking to see what I get.
Technically speaking, that cherub would be fairly mentally challenged. Imperium servo tech (skulls, those creepy cherub things, ect) aren't known for being really smart.
And I dig it, if only because I already have a few from some old Sisters related kits that I like using for objective markers.
The new tacticals took the kit from 37.25 to 40 dollars American for the same number of guys. Not bad considering You are getting more mks of bits, more different types of guns, and a better missile launcher.
I think someone was saying that the sternguard kit will come with two modular bolters. So you can take the combi weapon bit and then slot it on the bolter, they will then provide all the different weapon bits(and the rest can be converted)
All in all I am really looking forward to getting my hands on that sternguard kit......They will make AWESOME sergeants.
- Glad I to see GW is still catering to their core army, tha Spaze Marinezzz.
- Glad to know GW does know how make a codex where multiple similar armies are supported out of one codex.
- Glad to know I didn't waste my money on the CSM codex
- Glad to know I don't continue to waste money on GW products
Barfolomew wrote: - Glad to know I don't continue to waste money on GW products
Just time posting in threads about GW products
On a serious note I like the Libby and his little flying baby friend. That said I play a counts-as Iron Warriors force so I won't be picking him up but the Sternguard and new anti-flyer tanks might pull me in. Otherwise I've just picked up parts for 30 marines that I'll make 100% customizable with crested helms for my "allied" marines with different chapter tactics. Oh, and I need to see how big a centurion is so I can get the ball rolling on converting 4 to fit the IW theme
Barfolomew wrote: - Glad I to see GW is still catering to their core army, tha Spaze Marinezzz.
- Glad to know GW does know how make a codex where multiple similar armies are supported out of one codex.
- Glad to know I didn't waste my money on the CSM codex
- Glad to know I don't continue to waste money on GW products
Leth wrote: I think someone was saying that the sternguard kit will come with two modular bolters. So you can take the combi weapon bit and then slot it on the bolter, they will then provide all the different weapon bits(and the rest can be converted)
All in all I am really looking forward to getting my hands on that sternguard kit......They will make AWESOME sergeants.
Is this correct? Only twin combi-bolters? I'm planning to use these Sterns as sgts as well, but I was hoping it would be easy to make all five with combis. Oh well...time for more practice with green stuff.
Leth wrote: I think someone was saying that the sternguard kit will come with two modular bolters. So you can take the combi weapon bit and then slot it on the bolter, they will then provide all the different weapon bits(and the rest can be converted)
All in all I am really looking forward to getting my hands on that sternguard kit......They will make AWESOME sergeants.
Is this correct? Only twin combi-bolters? I'm planning to use these Sterns as sgts as well, but I was hoping it would be easy to make all five with combis. Oh well...time for more practice with green stuff.
Or time to convert stormbolters if you don't mind the side by side look.
In the past, I've done press-molding to make combi-meltas with chopped up infernus pistols. I'm hoping the new modular bits are easier to use in this way, and that my skills with press-molding have increased (because those other combi-meltas look...well...bad, to be charitable).
We'll see what the actual sprues look like. Even if it's just a small number of bolters, with optional cobmi parts, that's still very nice. Add magnets for versatility, or take spare normal bolters and hack them up to make new combis. I suspect that it will be much easier to take the leftover combi bits from the sternguard set and work with them, as opposed to cutting down a full melta/plasma/flamer and merging it with a normal bolter.
And this is all assuming a lot about how things are set up. I'm sure it will work out just fine.
None of the Combi-weapons so far in the sternguard pics look like they would work as a modular design. It would also be just as easy to make full combi-bolters as opposed to bolter bases and extra parts.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MajorWesJanson wrote: None of the Combi-weapons so far in the sternguard pics look like they would work as a modular design. It would also be just as easy to make full combi-bolters as opposed to bolter bases and extra parts.
Also, from the pics, there are at least 4 bolter bases which seem to correlate with various combi-weapons- There is a combi-plasma with a box magazine seen in the DA squad and older BT sternguard. DA also have a combiplas with a drum mag. Combi-melta with a curved stick mag, and combi-grav with a shot straight stick mag.
xruslanx wrote:
Yeah, anyone wierded out by cyber-cherubs must have been suffering some form of selective blindness for the last decade or so, because they've been plastered all over the page margins of rulebooks and the artworks for that whole time.
While they did appear on some models related to the various branches of the Inquisition, it is only recently that GW has decided to start plastering them on Space Marine miniatures. I don't know what designer thought it was a good idea to put cherub plumber's crack right on the front of a character model.
This thread has been odd, I never realised how many people play 40K but apparently hate the art, background, and themes the whole game is based on.
Maybe, just maybe, people like some elements and dislike others. Nah, can't be that!
To see why people don't like them, take some text from a 40k novel where it describes armour or equipment and then add in text describing the naked form of a childlike cherub.
Barfolomew wrote: - Glad I to see GW is still catering to their core army, tha Spaze Marinezzz.
- Glad to know GW does know how make a codex where multiple similar armies are supported out of one codex.
- Glad to know I didn't waste my money on the CSM codex
- Glad to know I don't continue to waste money on GW products
You are right, I thought I had heard that somewhere, but maybe they will be giving us one of each then in the sternguard box. heck that alone will almost justify their price after how much combi-meltas costed......Might have to start trading some of the 10+ that I got.
It will be interesting to see combi-grav/grav and where it will see the largest presence if any at all. I am sure the centurions will be making a splash but we shall see...
I tried asking this some pages ago, but never got a confirmation. After the White Dwarf this Saturday showing the new material for Space Marines and the pre-orders going live, how long til everything is actually released, or available to be purchased in GW stores? A week? Two?
See if GW changes / goes out of business / has a revelation / gets bought out / follow Privateer Press
Follow PP? Why would they want to make lousy miniatures or crappy games like Warmahordes?
He was talking about himself, not GW. Note "why are you here" not "why is GW here".
Also, a reason GW might want to pay attention to PP is that PP is growing while GW is stagnating. Hopefully this Space Marine release can actually do some work in turning things around for GW and return them to growth.
See if GW changes / goes out of business / has a revelation / gets bought out / follow Privateer Press
Follow PP? Why would they want to make lousy miniatures or crappy games like Warmahordes?
He was talking about himself, not GW. Note "why are you here" not "why is GW here".
Also, a reason GW might want to pay attention to PP is that PP is growing while GW is stagnating. Hopefully this Space Marine release can actually do some work in turning things around for GW and return them to growth.
GW is going to stagnate to the point where the Imperium of Man looks progressive by contrast. As good as some of things in this release are they need to do alot more to bring back players or even keep them.
Barfolomew wrote: - Glad I to see GW is still catering to their core army, tha Spaze Marinezzz.
- Glad to know GW does know how make a codex where multiple similar armies are supported out of one codex.
- Glad to know I didn't waste my money on the CSM codex
- Glad to know I don't continue to waste money on GW products
They already released Tau, Eldar, and Daemons, and Necrons was more or less 6th optimized. At some point they have to do Space Marines.
Good lord. If you're going to be a hater, at least have something intelligent or clever to say.
I predict all the people talking about how awful the new codex is now are going to also complain about it once its actually released, but for entirely different reasons. They just want to complain.
Deadshot wrote: I wasn't refering to Ward, I was refering to the guy who has like 5 Marine armies, Hudson I think?
If it's Matt Hudson(I think there was a Matt Hutson as well who fits in the same general area I'm about to discuss)--then yeah. He has a bajillion armies--most of them nicely converted as well.
From what I remember though he is part of the 'Eavy Metal team(or what passes for it now) and gets used for Battle Reports as well because of how long he has been there.
But just remember that there are quite a few "Matts" at GW in the studio. Purportedly that is why Ward was credited as "Mat Ward" rather than "Matthew" or "Matt" at times.
Davespil wrote: I love how you have 6-7 different versions of power armor over the course of the hobby but the only change game-wise has been aesthetic. I think 3rd ed was Mark 2 or 3 and the new space Marines are on 7 or 8. Yet, the armor has not gotten better in anyway. Still a 3+, still a T4, and they aren't moving any faster. So what was the reason for the changes in armor? Did the Imperium just want to keep up with the latest fashions in power armor?
Yeah, I get that maybe they are bit more comfortable and easier to produce. But after all of these modification wouldn't they offer more protection? Or at least make the SM tougher or faster?
They get cheaper and easier to repair
No they dont get any better on a d6 scale. Where the difference between a man and a space marine is 1 point of strength and toughness and the difference between a man in carpace armor and SM power armor is also only 1 point on a d6 scale no minor improvement are going to change anything.
Also Mk4 maximus armor was made when the imperium was at its greatest technological level and thus everything made after it is like trying to build a PS4 with bits from radio shack.
FlingitNow wrote: Hammernators did need a points increase. As at the sane points as LC terminators only a complete moron would take LC Terminators and few in their right mind would take shooty terminators. Hammernators are the best Terminators therefore they should be more points than other Terminators.
Should Terminators be 40 points base? Well that's a different argument but with Baledrakes and Vector strikes and VWBs around Terminators look good in this meta. But you're largely paying for CC prowess which has been greatly curtailed in this edition. Terminators where great in the last Edition this time they are more situational with HG looking a better bet. Next edition they may be more prevalent again. But to suggest a Terminator with TH+SS should be a point LESS than one with Power Weapon and combibolter is frankly ludicrous. Perhaps Teinators at 35 base (with Chaos ones being 26) would have suited this edition better. However personally I think it would have made Terminators too good. .
Hammerators dont need a point drop. Lots of people take them, that 3++ is just that good.
regular ones probably could, but then as you said CSM and DA terminators would have needed to go down at the start of the edition.
I get that there were tweeks to the armor in the last 10,000(?) years, but you figured they'd get more effective as far as the game goes. For example, MK-2 and MK-8 both offer the same protection in the game, T4, 3+, and just a 6" movement. In 10,000 years they couldn't have made them a bit better? Say T5, S5 or 2+, or 5++? Or make them lighter so they could move 7" or 8" inches? All they really did was make the armor more confortable and better looking in 10,000 years. Because nothing else they did made them more effective in combat. That always bothered me. I'd like to think in 10,000 years mankind would invent armor that would fully stop small arms fire.
10,000 years of which technology has consistantly been getting worse and all of the engineers and scientists(mechanicum) are just trying to maintain what was built before rather than innovate
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jah-joshua wrote: anyone with real world military experience should be well aquainted with accepting logical fallacies...
hahahahaha...
the Dark Ages seems to be a very European thing...
the Arabs, the Chinese, and the Japanese were all making scientific and technological advances throughout the European Middle Age...
of course, 40K is written from the European perspective...
China had their own period of decline and deinnovation in different period. They also had civil wars that were so destructive they consumed centuries worth of progress in a couple years.
Hear me out. The Chaos marines have a pretty bland, underwhelming codex, and these guys are supposed to be on the cusp of destroying the Imperium? The new units aren't wildly exciting - Warp Talons are overpriced and vulnerable, Mutilators are slow and have too few attacks, the daemon engines have low WS/BS to be major threats, Hellbrutes are wonderful exploding statues, and cultists couldn't hold an objective if they were nailed to it. The only new unit that would suck to lose is the Helldrake.
Loyalist Marines have everything their heretic counterparts need. They have anti-air. They have ATSKNF. They will have tactics allowing more distinct armies with a wide variety of stategies. They have better Land Raiders. They have Drop Pods.
Get inventive with your fluff, and it will make sense. Iron Warriors using Iron Hands tactics or taking advantage of that UM Devastator oath? Makes sense to me. You know what Chaos Legion, like the Black Templars, would possess an incredible crusading style? Word Bearers. Night Lords and Raven Guard. The Imperial Fists sure are stubborn, just like The Flawless Host, who are so arrogant they can't see themselves failing. It's not very hard.
I hate my CSM army. I bring 1 heldrake, and i still get groans and discust from everyone i play (O that cheese). I wish i could build a somewhat competant army without spamming either plague marines or heldrakes. Furthermore I hate half the demonic stuff and the silly boon table of suck. I am already planning up my conversion to renegade iron hands.
I hate my CSM army. I bring 1 heldrake, and i still get groans and discust from everyone i play (O that cheese). I wish i could build a somewhat competant army without spamming either plague marines or heldrakes. Furthermore I hate half the demonic stuff and the silly boon table of suck. I am already planning up my conversion to renegade iron hands.
I'm finally assembling some of my CSM stuff, as BT stuff has take my attention for the past year. I have a Heldrake I bought along with the other CSM stuff in early December, but honestly I'm not sure if I'll ever end up building that. It really is such a stupid unit that I'd feel so bad about using even one that I'll probably just skip it. Should probably find a buyer for it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Hmm, a Black Templars Chapter Master with the EW relic, 3++ and a Thunder Hammer would murder the everliving crap out of most things in a challenge. Although he'd have slightly less oomph than our current Master of Sanctity on the charge, he'd have an extra wound, real Eternal Warrior and rerolls all the time in challenges. Screw the Emperor's Champion, I'm getting a Marshal!
Only just realized this? It was about time you got on with the times
Ultramarines - Combat Doctrine:
This detachment can utilize each of the following combat doctrines once per game.
Lol, amazing how one extra line, set U marines from top dog, to yet again meh...
Did you really think for one second Ultramarines would get blanket rerolls to hit all the time on their Tac squads? Seriously you thought that was a possibility?
I actually still really like the UM CTs and think it is probably still the best one. But they are all good though in different ways. The UM one for me is also the best for the game as it makes you make decisions and think.
FlingitNow wrote: Hammernators did need a points increase. As at the sane points as LC terminators only a complete moron would take LC Terminators and few in their right mind would take shooty terminators. Hammernators are the best Terminators therefore they should be more points than other Terminators.
Should Terminators be 40 points base? Well that's a different argument but with Baledrakes and Vector strikes and VWBs around Terminators look good in this meta. But you're largely paying for CC prowess which has been greatly curtailed in this edition. Terminators where great in the last Edition this time they are more situational with HG looking a better bet. Next edition they may be more prevalent again. But to suggest a Terminator with TH+SS should be a point LESS than one with Power Weapon and combibolter is frankly ludicrous. Perhaps Teinators at 35 base (with Chaos ones being 26) would have suited this edition better. However personally I think it would have made Terminators too good. .
Hammerators dont need a point drop. Lots of people take them, that 3++ is just that good.
regular ones probably could, but then as you said CSM and DA terminators would have needed to go down at the start of the edition.
I get that there were tweeks to the armor in the last 10,000(?) years, but you figured they'd get more effective as far as the game goes. For example, MK-2 and MK-8 both offer the same protection in the game, T4, 3+, and just a 6" movement. In 10,000 years they couldn't have made them a bit better? Say T5, S5 or 2+, or 5++? Or make them lighter so they could move 7" or 8" inches? All they really did was make the armor more confortable and better looking in 10,000 years. Because nothing else they did made them more effective in combat. That always bothered me. I'd like to think in 10,000 years mankind would invent armor that would fully stop small arms fire.
10,000 years of which technology has consistantly been getting worse and all of the engineers and scientists(mechanicum) are just trying to maintain what was built before rather than innovate
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jah-joshua wrote: anyone with real world military experience should be well aquainted with accepting logical fallacies...
hahahahaha...
the Dark Ages seems to be a very European thing...
the Arabs, the Chinese, and the Japanese were all making scientific and technological advances throughout the European Middle Age...
of course, 40K is written from the European perspective...
China had their own period of decline and deinnovation in different period. They also had civil wars that were so destructive they consumed centuries worth of progress in a couple years.
Hear me out. The Chaos marines have a pretty bland, underwhelming codex, and these guys are supposed to be on the cusp of destroying the Imperium? The new units aren't wildly exciting - Warp Talons are overpriced and vulnerable, Mutilators are slow and have too few attacks, the daemon engines have low WS/BS to be major threats, Hellbrutes are wonderful exploding statues, and cultists couldn't hold an objective if they were nailed to it. The only new unit that would suck to lose is the Helldrake.
Loyalist Marines have everything their heretic counterparts need. They have anti-air. They have ATSKNF. They will have tactics allowing more distinct armies with a wide variety of stategies. They have better Land Raiders. They have Drop Pods.
Get inventive with your fluff, and it will make sense. Iron Warriors using Iron Hands tactics or taking advantage of that UM Devastator oath? Makes sense to me. You know what Chaos Legion, like the Black Templars, would possess an incredible crusading style? Word Bearers. Night Lords and Raven Guard. The Imperial Fists sure are stubborn, just like The Flawless Host, who are so arrogant they can't see themselves failing. It's not very hard.
I hate my CSM army. I bring 1 heldrake, and i still get groans and discust from everyone i play (O that cheese). I wish i could build a somewhat competant army without spamming either plague marines or heldrakes. Furthermore I hate half the demonic stuff and the silly boon table of suck. I am already planning up my conversion to renegade iron hands.
There are a lot of cool ways you could convert SM models into Chaos SM. You could turn centurians into oblits and maulers. Put some guns on the helldrake and make it that ugly flyer (not the stormraven). Put wings on a chaos landraider and call it a storm raven... The funny thing is I do the exact opposite. Most of my CSM are SM models. I just have the defiler, heldrakes, demons, and characters.
My SM army can be Codex SM, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Chaos SM. And I think that its getting pretty popular with the cost of all the models and all of the new models coming out.I just tell everyone that my general can't make up his mind what kind of army he wants so he stole from everyone.
Davespil wrote: I love how you have 6-7 different versions of power armor over the course of the hobby but the only change game-wise has been aesthetic. I think 3rd ed was Mark 2 or 3 and the new space Marines are on 7 or 8. Yet, the armor has not gotten better in anyway. Still a 3+, still a T4, and they aren't moving any faster. So what was the reason for the changes in armor? Did the Imperium just want to keep up with the latest fashions in power armor?
Yeah, I get that maybe they are bit more comfortable and easier to produce. But after all of these modification wouldn't they offer more protection? Or at least make the SM tougher or faster?
They get cheaper and easier to repair
No they dont get any better on a d6 scale. Where the difference between a man and a space marine is 1 point of strength and toughness and the difference between a man in carpace armor and SM power armor is also only 1 point on a d6 scale no minor improvement are going to change anything.
Also Mk4 maximus armor was made when the imperium was at its greatest technological level and thus everything made after it is like trying to build a PS4 with bits from radio shack.
That's wrong because the Mk6 was meant to be an improvement, offering minor, slightly more sensible placement of components and lighter gears for no loss in protection and had better autosenses. The Mk 7 improved this further and the Mk8 further still with redesjgned breatplates, helmets, collars, etc.
Ultramarines - Combat Doctrine:
This detachment can utilize each of the following combat doctrines once per game.
Lol, amazing how one extra line, set U marines from top dog, to yet again meh...
Did you really think for one second Ultramarines would get blanket rerolls to hit all the time on their Tac squads? Seriously you thought that was a possibility?
I actually still really like the UM CTs and think it is probably still the best one. But they are all good though in different ways. The UM one for me is also the best for the game as it makes you make decisions and think.
macc92 wrote: Does anyone know if the banners/standards will do anything like in C: DA? (i.e. devastation and whatnot)
IIRC there will be the classic Chapter/Company Banners which seem to work the same as they do now and one Standard in the relic section. Sadly we don't know what it does so far.
Globs of snot! The rumors look tasty.
Now how much beer do i have to give up to front a $50+ book. Me has a idea...work an overtime. Score!
Yarp, I am going to spend much time with that book.
Q: Okay, does Kantor have the Imperial Fist Chapter Tactic or not? Because if he -does- then he should follow the same rules for allying chapters which says that if two chapters have the same Chapter Tactics that they use the same detachment.You guys mentioned Lysander and Kantor being in the same detachment specifically in the show, then say they can't on here, so which is it?
A: Sorry, they can be. It's late and I misspoke/mistyped. Trying to answer question before I go to bed.
A2 (Follow-up): He [Kantor] can be in the same detachment but only Crimson Fists benefit from his Hold the Line and Oath of Rynn special rules
I'm just wondering, but are grav weapons relics of the great crusade or something?
Okay, and now back to the regularly scheduled program. Not sure if anyone asked this before, but is it going to be possible to run the reserve companies?
xruslanx wrote:
Yeah, anyone wierded out by cyber-cherubs must have been suffering some form of selective blindness for the last decade or so, because they've been plastered all over the page margins of rulebooks and the artworks for that whole time.
While they did appear on some models related to the various branches of the Inquisition, it is only recently that GW has decided to start plastering them on Space Marine miniatures. I don't know what designer thought it was a good idea to put cherub plumber's crack right on the front of a character model.
...do you just go around this website slagging off GW for anything and everything you can? Cherubs have been a part of Western culture for centuries, if you can't look at a child's body without immediately being offended by it, then that's definitely your problem.
HUR HUR HUR BABY DICKS, HUR HUR STUPID RENAISSANCE SCULTORS WITH BABY DICKS.
TechMarine1 wrote: I'm just wondering, but are grav weapons relics of the great crusade or something?
Okay, and now back to the regularly scheduled program. Not sure if anyone asked this before, but is it going to be possible to run the reserve companies?
In order:
They predate the Heresy, but they're not relics. They've been employed as recently as the Badab War.
xruslanx wrote: ...do you just go around this website slagging off GW for anything and everything you can?
There are aspects of the 40k and WFB universes that I really like (like Kroot and Chaos Warriors and the Horus Heresy audiobooks) but I'm not going to withhold my criticism of the stuff I don't just because you can't handle it without getting all worked up and mocking.
Cherubs have been a part of Western culture for centuries, if you can't look at a child's body without immediately being offended by it, then that's definitely your problem.
It's not about being offended. It's about it them being silly.
Cherubs may indeed have a long history in art, but it's generally not associated with martial traditions. It's like if they put unicorns on marines and people say "unicorns been a part of Western culture for centuries" to justify it.
Leprechauns and count chocula are hardly a good comparison. Neither are unicorns.
The imperium of man has a very Gothic christian theme to it and cherubs fit in fantastically. When you consider that it's probably the body of a child that's been servitored' it only gets more noire. Very 40k
xruslanx wrote: ...do you just go around this website slagging off GW for anything and everything you can?
There are aspects of the 40k and WFB universes that I really like (like Kroot and Chaos Warriors and the Horus Heresy audiobooks) but I'm not going to withhold my criticism of the stuff I don't just because you can't handle it without getting all worked up and mocking.
Cherubs have been a part of Western culture for centuries, if you can't look at a child's body without immediately being offended by it, then that's definitely your problem.
It's not about being offended. It's about it them being silly.
Cherubs may indeed have a long history in art, but it's generally not associated with martial traditions. It's like if they put unicorns on marines and people say "unicorns been a part of Western culture for centuries" to justify it.
davou wrote: Leprechauns and count chocula are hardly a good comparison. Neither are unicorns.
The imperium of man has a very Gothic christian theme to it and cherubs fit in fantastically. When you consider that it's probably the body of a child that's been servitored' it only gets more noire. Very 40k
Cherubs absolutely fit with the visual themes of 40K, just not in a combat setting IMO.
Stick them on buildings, have those servitor-y type ones floating around a tech priest or Inquisitor in a Black Library book, but the juxtaposition between giant, genhanced über warrior and flying baby is just a bit too daft for my aesthetic sense to accept.
Oh, I'm pretty sure that if I could bring a nasty cherub that showed it's butt to the enemy and got blasted to smithereens every battle I'd do it. I'd fething video it and play back a montage of the antics over a beer every decade or so.
Insurgency Walker wrote: Oh, I'm pretty sure that if I could bring a nasty cherub that showed it's butt to the enemy and got blasted to smithereens every battle I'd do it. I'd fething video it and play back a montage of the antics over a beer every decade or so.
Back on topic. Just a few more days to preorders!
A few more days to the WD and GW putting 360s of all the new stuff for use to ogle.
The idea of floating infants in an apolalyptic future is completely naff.
My army of space marines is a fully focused, determined, fearless machine of war.
I will NOT ruin that aesthetic by introducing naked, vomiting, pooping, wailing babies into my army.
I'd also like to know who feeds them? Would your hardened genetically modified, über, super fighting chapter master lend his teet to the howling poop machine in the heat of battle?
ClockworkZion wrote: You mean the Unicorn, which represents Scotland on the Royal coat of arms for the United Kingdom? It could work, but someone needs to be wearing a kilt.
That would be the cherub then people would complain about upskirt.
Cherubim are of the same type as servo skulls. Servo skulls aren't exactly martial either yet they still got into the devastator box. Librarians used to have familiars, are they getting them back or is this just decorative?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jamo wrote: Ok I'm entitled to an opinion so here it is.
The idea of floating infants in an apolalyptic future is completely naff.
My army of space marines is a fully focused, determined, fearless machine of war.
I will NOT ruin that aesthetic by introducing naked, vomiting, pooping, wailing babies into my army.
I'd also like to know who feeds them? Would your hardened genetically modified, über, super fighting chapter master lend his teet to the howling poop machine in the heat of battle?
I think not.
EPIC FAIL.
In my humble OPINION.
Cherubs are not actually alive in that sense. I'm not sure they even started as alive, they could be machines covered in synthi-skin. Some of the fluff I've read has them used as part of a security system.
If they are alive then the same question could be asked of servitors and you'd get the same answer - they'd be programmed to go dump somewhere.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You know, thinking about it, chaos marines really should have a baby stuck on a spike accessory, it would be perfect for them.
Can't see an official one being done though.
Jamo wrote: Ok I'm entitled to an opinion so here it is.
The idea of floating infants in an apolalyptic future is completely naff.
My army of space marines is a fully focused, determined, fearless machine of war.
I will NOT ruin that aesthetic by introducing naked, vomiting, pooping, wailing babies into my army.
I'd also like to know who feeds them? Would your hardened genetically modified, über, super fighting chapter master lend his teet to the howling poop machine in the heat of battle?
I think not.
EPIC FAIL.
In my humble OPINION.
You know that the baby is likely a lobotomized body stuffed full of circuitry and bionics right? I don't think it CAN poop. The living tissue probably lives off some kind of special nutrient liquid injected into what's left of it's circulatory system. It's basically a Servo Skull with extra bits.
Why? I'm betting to key into the baroque stylings that the Imperium borrows from, along with the gothic feel and making everything a parody of things. I'm pretty sure the design meeting went like this:
"I think it's missing something."
"Oh! I know! They used to put cherubs on things!"
"That's a smashing good idea chap! Now how are we going to make it dark enough for outsetting so it fits in and people see it as being intentionally over the top?"
"How about the cherubs are made from dead babies, and are covered in cables, wires and obvious bionics?"
What are we discussing? I would like to get some actual pre - release tactic discussion going about chapter tactics but it seems that we are talking about a baby and 40k lore?
Jamo wrote: Ok I'm entitled to an opinion so here it is.
The idea of floating infants in an apolalyptic future is completely naff.
My army of space marines is a fully focused, determined, fearless machine of war.
I will NOT ruin that aesthetic by introducing naked, vomiting, pooping, wailing babies into my army.
I'd also like to know who feeds them? Would your hardened genetically modified, über, super fighting chapter master lend his teet to the howling poop machine in the heat of battle?
I think not.
EPIC FAIL.
In my humble OPINION.
AFAIK, servitors dont poop, puke or eat. They just do whatever they were lobotomized to do, and kinda rot on their frames. Why do you think they're some kind of magical fairy instead of the desecrated corpse of an infant that was culled to become a tool that it is?
CKO wrote: What are we discussing? I would like to get some actual pre - release tactic discussion going about chapter tactics but it seems that we are talking about a baby and 40k lore?
Actually we're discussing personal opinions about model aesthetics regarding the cherubs on models like the new Librarian model.
As for tactics, my method is to slap things together and then tinker with it until it works.
That said my primary goal is to get that Battle Company formation built, but I'm looking at some of these other things with interest. I'd love to see an updated Chapter Organization chart that explains how all these tanks, Centurions and aircraft fit into the chapter now. I'm hoping the new book has it.
Yep. Some might be interested in game play. Other people are interested in models, aesthetics and background fiction.
The only reason I give the servo skull a pass is that skulls and images of death are part of martial traditions and while they can be over the top, they're not as over the top as winged babies.
I happen to think drones that monitor things and carry out simple tasks are awesome. I just don't think they are improved by putting a winged baby suit on them and then putting those alongside genetically engineered space warriors.
They are servitors modeled to look like the "child-like angels of ancient Terran myth to symbolise their purity in the eyes of the Emperor.". They are not sentient.
If you don't like them, luckily, you don't have to buy the model or use it. But saying they don't fit into the 40k setting or "theme" is asinine.
gmaleron wrote: Just to give you guys a little preview of the rough draft I have created for the army I plan to build! I was able to get a great deal for some Crisis Suits that I had and was able to purchase x5 Drop Pods and x2 Stormtalons for them and this is what I am planning so let me know what you think! :
Spoiler:
Raven Guard Drop-Pod Assault Group Raptor
Chapter Tactic:
-Imperial Fists
HQ:
-Shadow Captain Aleron (Pedro Kantor)
ELITE:
-x10 Sternguard (*Combat Squad*)
*w/ x1 or x2 Combi Melta
-Drop Pod
-x10 Sternguard (*Combat Squad*)
*w/ x1 or x2 Combi Melta
-Drop Pod
-x10 Sternguard (*Combat Squad*)
*w/ x1 or x2 Combi Melta
-Drop Pod
Now just to make sure, will x5 man Tac Squads be able to take Drop Pods like the Space Wolf Codex? Or will they have to be x10 man (looked on here could not find it). Also any word if Thunderfire Cannons will remain or be relentless? Thanks for helping a new Space Marine player out!
minimalist troops.
no thunder hammer termies in imperial fists
using crimson fist character to lead imperial fists army, allowed or not
2/10, would not purge xenos with.
seriously, why not paint your guys crimson fists. Same chapter tactics but your army represents them much better.
Maybe because I want to do a Raven Guard army (which large numbers of Sternguard perfectly fit the fluff) and just because the new Codex forced me to do the list that wish to run this way, does not mean I should be forced into doing another chapter that I have no real interest about. And what is with that 2/10 ratio, just because YOU do not like it does not automatically make it a bad army? Get real man, you do not have to like it but does not mean you have to trash it.
I want to do a Raven Guard army which are very Spec Ops when it comes to tactics and Drop Poding in with elite infantry with them makes perfect sense (as it is mentioned in their fluff they are very flexible when it comes to the Codex Astartes and will utilize anything if it means they will achieve victory). Yes in regards to this new book it is the "wrong" chapter tactic but all that means is that it will help the rest of my army out. I love Sternguard and they are the whole reason I am doing a Marine army in the first place, so of course I am going to do whatever I can to run as many as them as effectively as possible, not running them for the chapter tactic.
I'd like to mention to all of you to consider saving the cherub bits from the models if you buy the marine and don't plan on using the parts you find silly or what have you. Some of us would be more than willing to trade or buy them from you for scenery or Inquisitor conversions. I think they are cool for the setting but impractical for my Deathwing. They will be perfect for my Inquisitorial warband in skirmish games however.
It's a tautology that an element of 40k fits in 40k. It's a meaningless statement. What people are expressing is whether or not they like them and whether or not they fit with the martial appearance of Space Marines. It's relatively new to find miniatures with flying babies on them among the Space Marine product line.
frozenwastes wrote: It's a tautology that an element of 40k fits in 40k. It's a meaningless statement. What people are expressing is whether or not they like them and whether or not they fit with the martial appearance of Space Marines. It's relatively new to find miniatures with flying babies on them among the Space Marine product line.
Maybe among the Marines themselves, but Sisters had them in 3rd with Saint Celestine and both the Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters shared Inquisitor model packs which came with them too (I use the ones I've collected as objective markers!).
And when it comes to Marines there are so many different flavors (seriously think of a historical army of some kind, preferably ancient history, like Roman Legionnaires, Spartans, Mongols, ect. There is a Marine army for ALL of those any more. There is even room for Marine armies that haven't even been touched on. I've seen people who've taken the idea of the Rainbow Warriors and based them on the Aztechs) so when you get down to it, if it fits or not really has nothing to do with the army, but how you choose to approach the army and what it's flavor is.
Also, in the past when Librarians were upgraded for extra powers they bought Familiars...it seems GW finally released a model with one finally. 3 Editions later.
I still dig it. I think the Librarian looks great either way.
For some reason the cherubs bother me a lot less on Sisters or Inquisitors. It's like I expect them to have angelic iconography and visual elements but I don't expect it on the typical codex compliant marine. I find it very out of place there.
frozenwastes wrote: For some reason the cherubs bother me a lot less on Sisters or Inquisitors. It's like I expect them to have angelic iconography and visual elements but I don't expect it on the typical codex compliant marine. I find it very out of place there.
You know there are some chapters that are just as religious and the like as the Sisters, right? I could see them using them. Same for chapters like the Salamanders who pride themselves on their artistry in addition to their combat prowess. I'm not saying every chapter needs them or should have them, but I think there are a fair few that could get away with running around with them.
CKO wrote: What are we discussing? I would like to get some actual pre - release tactic discussion going about chapter tactics but it seems that we are talking about a baby and 40k lore?
I've been thinking about Imperial Fists tactics, namely the best way to run a Pedro Sternguard force. That seems like it could be a potent tabletop force.
- Tactical squads can now do double melta (special weapon at 5 plus combi-weapon on sergeant), which strikes me as a great way to wreck vehicles on turn 1 from a drop pod. You have to take two, but this seems like a good way to use them, and they are a solid distraction. - Sternguard getting a price drop and scoring with Pedro are always potent. - Devastators with Tank Hunters, so I was thinking of taking 2 units of 10 guys, one with 4 ML (frag and krak), one with 2 lascannons and 2 MLs (frag, krak, and flakk), and take a Quad gun too. Pump out four str 7, six str 8, and two str 9 shots a turn, with rerolls to armor pen. Also, with combat squads you can make four separate targets, making it really hard to kill them all before they can make a major impact, and any flyers that aren't AV12 get shot up really bad the moment they hit the table, and the turn immediately after too.
My base idea was to take two units of each plus Pedro and a quad gun/ADL, and then fill out the rest of the list.
My current idea is that at 2K I would take all that, a Stormraven, and then ally in Tigurius and another unit of melta tacticals.
Also, if I end up in a game shop where people are allowed to choose their psychic powers...Tigurius is going to be OP as hell with Sternguard running around.
Divination Power Foreboding - Sternguard get counterattack and fire overwatch at BS4. Come. At. Me. BRO! Divination Power Prescience - Re-roll to hits on Sternguard? Who needs that silly UM or IF chapter tactic. And since it's To-Hit, that means melee AND Special Ammo shooting AND overwatch. Divination Forewarning - 4++. Hey Baleturkey, go **** yourself. Divination Misfortune - Enemy unit must reroll successful saving throws eh? Excuse me while I turn on hellfire rounds... Biomancy Enfeeble - negative 1 str and toughness basically means MEQs and worse get blown up right quick. 3+s to wound with Vengeance rounds? Thank you very much. Biomancy Endurance - Sternguard with FNP, IWND, and RELENTLESS!? Excuse me while I pour a ton of fire into you AND then charge you.
Pick pretty much any of those 3 and your sternguard become a ridiculously deadly force. I'd probably take Prescience, Misfortune, and Endurance. That's a nasty combo. Get in a Stormraven or Land Raider that's only moved 6". Hop out, fire bolters, getting rerolls. Use best ammo to cause most damage. All successful saving throws (assuming they even get any) get rerolled. Charge because of relentless. Reroll melee to-hits. Enemy again rerolls successful saving throws.
Alternatively, take Foreboding, Prescience, and Misfortune, and load them into Rhinos. Hop out, fire, and wait for them to come at you. Two shooting phases and counter-attack? Please and thank you.
I have a feeling that there are very very few infantry units in the game that wouldn't be completely eliminated in one turn from something like that. Maybe 10 Terminators.
Of course, if you can't pick powers it's harder, but you can always take prescience, and you're pretty likely to get one of those good divination ones with the power choice rerolling Tigurius can do.
Also, Misfortune and Prescience combo seems like a great way to murder Monstrous Creatures, up to and including uppity Wraithknights. Reroll missed bolter shots, use Hellfire rounds to wound on 2+, and then they have to reroll saves, which, with a 3+ regular save means that Wraithknight means, assuming 18 bolter shots, you get 16 hits, 13ish wounds, of which about 9 will be saved and 4 missed, and of which 3 of those 9 rerolled successful ones will be failed, resulting in 7 wounds from hellfire shooting. Dead Wraithknight.
Also dead anything bigger than a Termagaunt from codex Tyranids when it comes out.
ClockworkZion wrote: You know there are some chapters that are just as religious and the like as the Sisters, right? I could see them using them. Same for chapters like the Salamanders who pride themselves on their artistry in addition to their combat prowess. I'm not saying every chapter needs them or should have them, but I think there are a fair few that could get away with running around with them.
And I guess that's part of the appeal of Space Marines. There's a chapter or chapter style for everyone. I just don't like it when the idiosyncratic elements appear on common models. Hopefully they'll be optional bits and not too deeply integrated into the models. Or there will be alternative models that don't have them for those who find them silly or undesirable.
Does anyone feel like the new UM chapter tactics will actually "force" me to play a more balanced army list? I think so and i like it. When i first heard about the one time use i was bummed, then i figured it gave me a great deal of tactical flexibility with my units, but also limited me on what units i could bring to the fight to get the most effectiveness. This plays out just like Ultramarines in fluff with their adherence to the Codex Astartes. This REALLY makes me want to play them more. Additionally, I will now have a reason to run bikes and/or assault squads for the first time, and use them as a 1-2 punch to quickly contest an objective or swoop onto a weak enemy fireline or heavy weapon emplacement. It does seem like i will be locked into playing devastators more though, but im ok with that, it just looks like my second predator will have to suffer for it (sorry, TFC always comes to the party!). Besides, the devs option could be an excellent choice for when you anticipate you will be assualted, and it may even act as a nice deterrent! Regardless of this speculation, i think the 6 full tact squads I have lying around are about to hit the table hard and fast, go blue tide!
CKO wrote: What are we discussing? I would like to get some actual pre - release tactic discussion going about chapter tactics but it seems that we are talking about a baby and 40k lore?
We're discussing the new models. If you want to talk about some other aspect of the new release then do so.
ClockworkZion wrote: You know there are some chapters that are just as religious and the like as the Sisters, right? I could see them using them. Same for chapters like the Salamanders who pride themselves on their artistry in addition to their combat prowess. I'm not saying every chapter needs them or should have them, but I think there are a fair few that could get away with running around with them.
And I guess that's part of the appeal of Space Marines. There's a chapter or chapter style for everyone. I just don't like it when the idiosyncratic elements appear on common models. Hopefully they'll be optional bits and not too deeply integrated into the models. Or there will be alternative models that don't have them for those who find them silly or undesirable.
My thoughts exactly, but for the roman decoration on armour.
frozenwastes wrote: Cherubs may indeed have a long history in art, but it's generally not associated with martial traditions. It's like if they put unicorns on marines and people say "unicorns been a part of Western culture for centuries" to justify it.
Cherub-like figures aren't that uncommon in military portraiture (Titian's "Portrait of a Military Commander"), sculptures that commemorate military victories (the "Heroic Putti" of the Mariensäule in Munich), portraits of kings who wanted to project an image of martial power (Parmigianino's "Allegorical Portrait of Charles V"). or images of warrior saints (Anthony Van Dyck's "St. George and the Dragon"). That's in addition to the extremely frequent use of such figures as decorative elements in tombs of military figures and as decorative elements to display coats of arms in various media. That's not an exhaustive list by any means; from the Renaissance through to the Baroque, such figures were pretty much associated with every tradition.
Personally, I don't really take the cherubs on 40K miniatures very seriously at all. They're stylistic elements to make the figures more engaging and fun, just like the extremely convenient pile of rocks that my Jet Pack Chaplain is forever landing on top of. Of course, I don't take much of anything in 40K very seriously. Not even the Space Marines. I mean, we are talking about a universe with chainsaw swords, NCOs with massive fists that they punch tanks to death with, and Space Mongols. On motorcycles. Is the cherub element on the new librarian more or less ridiculous than werewolf space Vikings? How do I even begin to gauge that?
DogofWar1 wrote: - Devastators with Tank Hunters, so I was thinking of taking 2 units of 10 guys, one with 4 ML (frag and krak), one with 2 lascannons and 2 MLs (frag, krak, and flakk), and take a Quad gun too. Pump out four str 7, six str 8, and two str 9 shots a turn, with rerolls to armor pen. Also, with combat squads you can make four separate targets, making it really hard to kill them all before they can make a major impact, and any flyers that aren't AV12 get shot up really bad the moment they hit the table, and the turn immediately after too.
Ironically the Undaunted (DIY Chapter) Primarch is Rogal Dorn and I will be using the Imperial Fist Chapter Tactic! I want to take advantage of the tank hunter rule. I plan on using two squads of ten with a defense line with a quad cannon. They will all have MLs with the flakk upgrade one squad will have a las-plas razorback. The squad in the razorback will be able to bring some extra bolter drill fire power and I am sure my opponent will be caught off guard by tank hunter krak grenades.
I plan on bringing 2-3 Tactical squads to take advantage of Bolter Drill. They will have graviton guns and combi-grav guns so they can be a threat to everything. If our assault squads cost the same as DA I will be using one squad, around 100 points for 2 flamers and a combi-flamer in a drop pod sounds great to me. Three flamers followed by bolter drill tactical squad sounds like a dead unit.
My hq depends mostly on the relics which atm we don't know much about them I hope they are great, I would love to be able to create my own Chapter Master 4 atks and 4 wounds base is a great stat line to work with. I am also considering having 2 lv 2 librarians using either biomancy or telepathy depending on the opponent. Four out of the 6 biomancy powers are good, and 5 of the 6 telepathy are good.
Side note Tigurius is worth allying in like you said the divination chart with his rules is just but fluff wise I don't want to do it. To be honest I don't want to use Lysander he is a beast but not 230 beast, if he only has 3 attacks I don't think he is worth it.
Ultramarines - Combat Doctrine:
This detachment can utilize each of the following combat doctrines once per game.
Lol, amazing how one extra line, set U marines from top dog, to yet again meh...
Did you really think for one second Ultramarines would get blanket rerolls to hit all the time on their Tac squads? Seriously you thought that was a possibility?
Tau firewarriors get similar effect by paying a couple of points, I do not think bolter/bolt pistol rerolls would have been too much. On the other hand that would have put UM way above the rest in C:SM.
I actually still really like the UM CTs and think it is probably still the best one. But they are all good though in different ways. The UM one for me is also the best for the game as it makes you make decisions and think.
I am also happy to see the various doctrines, but I did expect more after seeing how battle focus worked. Disappointed in the end? Yes, I am. Hoping for BA codex goodies, but as everything has been set already in place with DA and SM codexes, I am not holding my breath.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Hmm, a Black Templars Chapter Master with the EW relic, 3++ and a Thunder Hammer would murder the everliving crap out of most things in a challenge. Although he'd have slightly less oomph than our current Master of Sanctity on the charge, he'd have an extra wound, real Eternal Warrior and rerolls all the time in challenges. Screw the Emperor's Champion, I'm getting a Marshal!
Consider taking a Marshal with a lightning claw and storm shield instead. I know the thunder hammer seems awesome, but you get the Shred special rule with the claw. Its still an AP3 weapon that will strike at initiative. You get all the attacks plus reroll misses due to CT...then you get to reroll all your wounds due to Shred, which in the end will raise the chances of you getting Rending from the CT as well. I like the thunder hammer too, but I DO love getting him into challenges where he has a good initiative and all these USRs. Also...a lightning claw marshal COMPLETELY wrecks face against normal units he charges.
Cherubs have been depicted in 40k artwork since the black and white drawings of the Emperor's throne room - back somewhere around 2E, if not before.
In the past, they've usually been depicted only in pictures on Earth, around the Emperor's palace. I believe this is the first time we're finally seeing them on models.
Check out p 135 for them being shown flitting around the emperor's throne room. p178 of latest rulebook for a "cherub" following a chaplain. And check the first page of the rulebook - cyborg cherubs and darkling sages gathered round a thunder hammer...
As for me, if I got the mini, I'd probably end up putting a plasma pistol in the squirt's hand - or maybe chop off an arm and put on an assault cannon - and on a tau drone flying base...
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Hmm, a Black Templars Chapter Master with the EW relic, 3++ and a Thunder Hammer would murder the everliving crap out of most things in a challenge. Although he'd have slightly less oomph than our current Master of Sanctity on the charge, he'd have an extra wound, real Eternal Warrior and rerolls all the time in challenges. Screw the Emperor's Champion, I'm getting a Marshal!
Consider taking a Marshal with a lightning claw and storm shield instead. I know the thunder hammer seems awesome, but you get the Shred special rule with the claw. Its still an AP3 weapon that will strike at initiative. You get all the attacks plus reroll misses due to CT...then you get to reroll all your wounds due to Shred, which in the end will raise the chances of you getting Rending from the CT as well. I like the thunder hammer too, but I DO love getting him into challenges where he has a good initiative and all these USRs. Also...a lightning claw marshal COMPLETELY wrecks face against normal units he charges.
The thing about having a Thunder Hammer is that you smash multi-wound T4 models to pieces and have a shot at bringing Daemon Princes and the like down on the second turn due to Concussive. Meganobz, Chaos Sorcerers, Librarians, any Tau, IG, non-Avatar/Phoenix Lord Eldar, etc. all fold from just one wound from the Thunder Hammer. It's also more reliable against Monstrous Creatures and Vehicles, and kills 1-wound MEQ more dead than the Lightning Claw, just not as fast. If he comes up against Abaddon or someone else with I6+ the Thunder Hammer is, assuming he gets a wound through, going to let him to get a second round's worth of attacks in, whereas if he's in the second round of combat against Abaddon with a Lightning Claw, odds are he's going down before he gets to bounce his attacks off of Abaddon's 2+ armour save. Plus, if I wanted a Chapter Master with an AP3 weapon I'd go for Helbrecht (which I probably will anyway, but still).
I might run a double-LC Marshal just to get some use of the LC Sword Brother model, but that won't be because it's very good but because it looks boss.
Back on-topic: I know the preorders open on Saturday, but what time? Midnight GMT (as in, 00:01 GMT Saturday)?
So I've been wanting to incorporate Jump Pack assault marines into my army for some time, but never had because they are very ineffective and don't fit the fluff for my Salamanders.
Now, however, it looks like I'll be able to use them more effectively (at least more effective than they are currently) AND it will fit the fluff a bit more..
Allying in Ravenguard gives me a larger range for assault and will be a bit more fluffy with the whole Istvaan V thing...
I'm excited to give it a try. I also only need 2 Assault squads to finish my 1st battle company, so there's another plus.
Question is, should I be trying to add Vanguard in with it... or stick with just normal assault marines with a Chaplain and/or Shrike.
GAH! I THROWING MONEY AT MY MONITOR AND I'M NOT GETTING ANYTHING BACK.
generalchaos34 wrote: Does anyone feel like the new UM chapter tactics will actually "force" me to play a more balanced army list? I think so and i like it. When i first heard about the one time use i was bummed, then i figured it gave me a great deal of tactical flexibility with my units, but also limited me on what units i could bring to the fight to get the most effectiveness. This plays out just like Ultramarines in fluff with their adherence to the Codex Astartes. This REALLY makes me want to play them more.
Tau firewarriors get similar effect by paying a couple of points, I do not think bolter/bolt pistol rerolls would have been too much. On the other hand that would have put UM way above the rest in C:SM.
Sorry what? Do you mean marker lights? Which have been in the Tau fluff from day 1, are there to help the fact they are a bs3 shooting army and require a different unit of models each more than a Firewarrior to get? Or do you mean an Ethereal granting 1 extra shot at half range as a bubble effect? Or a Fireblade granting an extra shot if you stay still to 1 unit. None of those are blanket rerolls to hit across the entire board with the backbone troops choice without having to use other FOC slots including HQs that limit its effect and can be killed to remove it. Where is the fluff that UM tac marines are better with their bolters than Chapter Masters of any other Chapter???
The fact is that only an idiot or someone that knew nothing about the game thought for a second that the UM CT was going to be blanket rerolls all the time. It was always going to be a bubble or limited use (or both). The fact it is board wide and 1 use is actually as good as it could possibly be. It also represents the fluff that UMs use tactics and efficiency to bring their guns to bare at the exact right time.
I love the smurfs and with the new product range coming I'm in 7th heaven - but, Macgragge Blue in spray form?...8th heaven
Finally GW started taking Army Painter seriously and realized, they had a really good idea with the color primer line.
I for one, after trying them both, love the Quickshade Inks (not the dips) over the GW Shades.
Mephiston Red in spray can form!? Hot Damn! This will make painting BA and Khorne Daemons ten times easier!
They should have called the paint 'arterial blood'. Then they could have sold 'arterial blood spray' which would have been an awesome name for a can of paint.
Hmm, that reclusiarch command squad with razorback is really tempting, probably be around 65 GBP i would think, and looks really cool. That and codex and maybe both boxes of vets might do it for me, and boom with the tactical squads i have a home, boom an new UM army.
ClockworkZion wrote: Q: Okay, does Kantor have the Imperial Fist Chapter Tactic or not? Because if he -does- then he should follow the same rules for allying chapters which says that if two chapters have the same Chapter Tactics that they use the same detachment.You guys mentioned Lysander and Kantor being in the same detachment specifically in the show, then say they can't on here, so which is it?
A: Sorry, they can be. It's late and I misspoke/mistyped. Trying to answer question before I go to bed.
A2 (Follow-up): He [Kantor] can be in the same detachment but only Crimson Fists benefit from his Hold the Line and Oath of Rynn special rules
That.... doesn't even make any sense. So Kantor can be in the same detachment as Lysander but only CF units benefit from his rules? That would again result in what essentially is paint scheme madness, which once again is highly unlikely.
ClockworkZion wrote: Q: Okay, does Kantor have the Imperial Fist Chapter Tactic or not? Because if he -does- then he should follow the same rules for allying chapters which says that if two chapters have the same Chapter Tactics that they use the same detachment.You guys mentioned Lysander and Kantor being in the same detachment specifically in the show, then say they can't on here, so which is it?
A: Sorry, they can be. It's late and I misspoke/mistyped. Trying to answer question before I go to bed.
A2 (Follow-up): He [Kantor] can be in the same detachment but only Crimson Fists benefit from his Hold the Line and Oath of Rynn special rules
That.... doesn't even make any sense. So Kantor can be in the same detachment as Lysander but only CF units benefit from his rules? That would again result in what essentially is paint scheme madness, which once again is highly unlikely.
Not really. That might be how GW envisioned it, with the idealistic view that we all paint out models like they think we should. However for this rule to work all you have to do is designate which squads are IF and which are CF. It's really not that hard, or unlikely.
...
but fluff wise I don't want to do it. 
