Chapter Master Pedro Kantor:
- +1 Attack
- Oath of Rynn: If Chapter Master Kantor is your Warlord all models in Crimson Fist detachments have the Preferred Enemy (Orks) Special Rule. Furthermore, all such models within 12" of Kantor have +1 Attack while he lives. This bonus does not affector Kantor, and is not cimulative with the similar bonuse that the Chapter Banner gives.
- Still has Hold the Line: Crimson Fist Sternguard Veterans are scoring - Same Wargear and points
- Warlord Trait: Iron Resolve
Sorry another noob question but based on the wording does this mean that I have to do a Crimson Fist Chapter?! Or did the OP make a mistake and anyone that takes Pedro (even as proxy) will allow it?
As long as you have the fitting CT (in this case Imperial Fists) you can field Kantor in every color and pose you like to make Sternguard troops.
Chapter Master Pedro Kantor:
- +1 Attack
- Oath of Rynn: If Chapter Master Kantor is your Warlord all models in Crimson Fist detachments have the Preferred Enemy (Orks) Special Rule. Furthermore, all such models within 12" of Kantor have +1 Attack while he lives. This bonus does not affector Kantor, and is not cimulative with the similar bonuse that the Chapter Banner gives.
- Still has Hold the Line: Crimson Fist Sternguard Veterans are scoring - Same Wargear and points
- Warlord Trait: Iron Resolve
Sorry another noob question but based on the wording does this mean that I have to do a Crimson Fist Chapter?! Or did the OP make a mistake and anyone that takes Pedro (even as proxy) will allow it?
I didn't make a mistake there, I only copied down what 40k Radio had said.
Chapter Master Pedro Kantor:
- +1 Attack
- Oath of Rynn: If Chapter Master Kantor is your Warlord all models in Crimson Fist detachments have the Preferred Enemy (Orks) Special Rule. Furthermore, all such models within 12" of Kantor have +1 Attack while he lives. This bonus does not affector Kantor, and is not cimulative with the similar bonuse that the Chapter Banner gives.
- Still has Hold the Line: Crimson Fist Sternguard Veterans are scoring - Same Wargear and points
- Warlord Trait: Iron Resolve
Sorry another noob question but based on the wording does this mean that I have to do a Crimson Fist Chapter?! Or did the OP make a mistake and anyone that takes Pedro (even as proxy) will allow it?
As long as you have the fitting CT (in this case Imperial Fists) you can field Kantor in every color and pose you like to make Sternguard troops.
SickSix wrote:I don't see them replacing a battleforce with something that costs twice as much.
Deadshot wrote:
MajorWesJanson wrote: The Space Marine Strike Force (replacing the battleforce it appears) seems to consist of the following:
1x Multipart Captain
1x 5-man Command Squad
2x 10-man Tactical Squads (I assume the new one)
1x 5-man Scout Squad (sniper scouts?)
1x 5-man Assault Squad
1x Venerable Dreadnought
1x Drop Pod
1x Razorback
39 models retail of $320 for $225, so about 30% off.
Replacing the BF? I damn well hope not. That's too much for savings. Even with 30% off the price is still too high for a booster pack style box. Are you sure this isn't just a one click bundle?
SickSix wrote:I don't see them replacing a battleforce with something that costs twice as much.
According to 40k Radio, the Strikeforce is replacing the Battlefoce. Furthermore all armies will be getting at least one at some point. They're not the same idea as the Battleforce, they're basically starter armies in a box.
According to 40k Radio, the Strikeforce is replacing the Battlefoce. Furthermore all armies will be getting at least one at some point. They're not the same idea as the Battleforce, they're basically starter armies in a box.
The battleforces were pretty much viewed as very small starter armies in a box; pick up one of them plus an HQ blister and you could slap down 500-750 points or so. If GW replaces the current battleforce boxes with larger, strikeforce sized boxes, they'll just be upping the size of their starter armies to a more realistic level. It's definitely a more *honest* approach to a starter box, but I wonder if it'll work well for them; $200-250 is definitely going to get your attention a lot more than $100-115.
I think it's supposed to work like that.
Maybe it's easier to 'treat' them all as separate codices that are combined in a single book?
So we have Codex: Ultra Marines, Codex: Raven Guard, Codex: Imperial Fists, etc etc.
That would make it obvious that a RG-codex cannot take UM-characters.
But you can take a successor-chapter from the UM's and use their characters.
You can also ally between the codices.
According to 40k Radio, the Strikeforce is replacing the Battlefoce. Furthermore all armies will be getting at least one at some point. They're not the same idea as the Battleforce, they're basically starter armies in a box.
The battleforces were pretty much viewed as very small starter armies in a box; pick up one of them plus an HQ blister and you could slap down 500-750 points or so. If GW replaces the current battleforce boxes with larger, strikeforce sized boxes, they'll just be upping the size of their starter armies to a more realistic level. It's definitely a more *honest* approach to a starter box, but I wonder if it'll work well for them; $200-250 is definitely going to get your attention a lot more than $100-115.
The only problem I am seeing witht he strike force is as a vetran Marine player, there is nothing in there I need, a few I want, but nothing I Need.
According to 40k Radio, the Strikeforce is replacing the Battlefoce. Furthermore all armies will be getting at least one at some point. They're not the same idea as the Battleforce, they're basically starter armies in a box.
The battleforces were pretty much viewed as very small starter armies in a box; pick up one of them plus an HQ blister and you could slap down 500-750 points or so. If GW replaces the current battleforce boxes with larger, strikeforce sized boxes, they'll just be upping the size of their starter armies to a more realistic level. It's definitely a more *honest* approach to a starter box, but I wonder if it'll work well for them; $200-250 is definitely going to get your attention a lot more than $100-115.
The only problem I am seeing witht he strike force is as a vetran Marine player, there is nothing in there I need, a few I want, but nothing I Need.
The battleforces had a similar problem. The only one that really appealed to me was the Ravenwing box since it basically was a single unit box (it just was an expensive unit.) The other boxes had a tendancy to cost the same as the full retail cost of everything that I actually wanted, plus a free unit that I didn't want. The strikeforce is the same thing, just doubled.
Of course, if you view it as a starter army, it's perfectly reasonable for it to not be appealing to a veteran player of the army. Heck, even a 40k vet looking to get into Space Marines is going to know enough about the game to be perfectly comfortable sitting down with the codex and buying individual boxes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheDraconicLord wrote: My God-Emprah, those delicious, absolutely delicious cover arts!!! Even the "Standard" one remains one of the best.
Oh man, I want that codex. I want to feel that codex and read it!!
Do you want it inside of you? Do you want to feel it coursing deep within yourself?
HisDivineShadow wrote: It may weighing in late, but that Savant lock sounds incredibly broken. Even misses give you a chance to hit ? How is that balanced?
Oh dear... I'm sorry, but my two reactions to this are best summarized as and
Anpu42 wrote: The only problem I am seeing witht he strike force is as a vetran Marine player, there is nothing in there I need, a few I want, but nothing I Need.
Why on earth should a STARTER box be something a veteran player wants/needs?
Nothing GW puts out is targeted at 'veteran' players. Except maybe Apocalypse.
I will concede that the battle force boxes as they are, are not true starter boxes. So these strike force boxes are more honest as to what a real army would look like (not a competitive one of course).
SickSix wrote: Nothing GW puts out is targeted at 'veteran' players. Except maybe Apocalypse.
I will concede that the battle force boxes as they are, are not true starter boxes. So these strike force boxes are more honest as to what a real army would look like (not a competitive one of course).
True, when I rebuilt my Space Wolves i ended up getting 2 Space Wolf Battle Forces and a Space Marine Battleforce.
Now it looks like I would only use this one... i don;t know
MajorWesJanson wrote: The Space Marine Strike Force (replacing the battleforce it appears) seems to consist of the following:
1x Multipart Captain
1x 5-man Command Squad
2x 10-man Tactical Squads (I assume the new one)
1x 5-man Scout Squad (sniper scouts?)
1x 5-man Assault Squad
1x Venerable Dreadnought
1x Drop Pod
1x Razorback
39 models retail of $320 for $225, so about 30% off.
Well, it is twice the price of the battleforce, but that seems to be a legitimate ~1,000 point army. If you want to use one to add to an existing army, the captain and command squad could be used to make some sternguard, as you generally don't need multiples of them. The kits are packed full of bits though.
Whenever you have the big forces at a discount, how good a deal depends on what you need out of the box. The fact that this has both a pod and a razor hurts it from that POV. Unless you are running a hybrid list, you generally want one or the other, not both. I will give it points for having the razor, not the rhino though. Personally, I might consider picking one up. It has a number of things I was planning on getting anyway. But I recently picked up a captain/command squad, and don't really need two more tac squads. I'm already edging closer to being able to field a second company, and that's a little excessive...
HisDivineShadow wrote: It may weighing in late, but that Savant lock sounds incredibly broken. Even misses give you a chance to hit ? How is that balanced?
Oh dear... I'm sorry, but my two reactions to this are best summarized as and
It's a one shot gun it's coming off of, so I see it as a fair trade. And it's not like anyone who is worried about those markers (by the way, it's 5+ for the missiles to hit, just tossing it out there. It's not like it's Space Marine BS here) can't just fly off the board to get rid of them.
I'm curious if the markers go away if the missile fails to hit a second time (on that 5+).
Automatically Appended Next Post: From 40k Radio:
Two things to clarify from stuff I am seeing pop up
-Yes Sicarius still has Rites of Battle
-And no Melta Weapons are not in the Flame Weapon category...not quite sure where this train of thought came from
ClockworkZion wrote: I'm curious if the markers go away if the missile fails to hit a second time (on that 5+).
When I read what they said about that I got the impression that the marker stays as long as the missile doesn't either hit or the target leaves the board. So in a very unlikely scenario a flyer that arrives on turn 2 and never leaves the board could have 5 missiles trailing it in turn 7
If they has included some Centurians or the Hunter/Stalker i think they would sell twice as many.
Maybe some of the more Chapter Specific set will be better.
ClockworkZion wrote: I'm curious if the markers go away if the missile fails to hit a second time (on that 5+).
When I read what they said about that I got the impression that the marker stays as long as the missile doesn't either hit or the target leaves the board. So in a very unlikely scenario a flyer that arrives on turn 2 and never leaves the board could have 5 missiles trailing it in turn 7
That was my impression as well. So it either hits the target, or increases the pressure by adding a new missile on its tail that could hit in upcoming rounds, possibly forcing the flyer to fly off the board or face impending doom.
I might have missed it somewhere, but are the limited ed covers going to be the same price as the regular? I didn't pay attention when the Tau and Eldar limited ones came out to remember.
Salted Diamond wrote: I might have missed it somewhere, but are the limited ed covers going to be the same price as the regular? I didn't pay attention when the Tau and Eldar limited ones came out to remember.
Regular one is $58, and the limited edition ones are $115 and direct only.
In regards to the "Are melta weapons fire-based?" question: that might have come up because the C'Tan's anti-melta power refers to fire-based weapons and includes melta.
Sigvatr wrote: In regards to the "Are melta weapons fire-based?" question: that might have come up because the C'Tan's anti-melta power refers to fire-based weapons and includes melta.
And it came up because the exact words were flame weapons as detailed in the weapon section of the BRB, which has melta under that heading. So unless 40k Radio paraphrased badly, melta will be included and for some reason they just think otherwise.
Sigvatr wrote: In regards to the "Are melta weapons fire-based?" question: that might have come up because the C'Tan's anti-melta power refers to fire-based weapons and includes melta.
And it came up because the exact words were flame weapons as detailed in the weapon section of the BRB, which has melta under that heading. So unless 40k Radio paraphrased badly, melta will be included and for some reason they just think otherwise.
Where does this assumption keep coming from? Go look in the 6th edition BRB, Flame and Melta are two completely different sections on the weapon type listing. It's around page 66 or so.
Sigvatr wrote: In regards to the "Are melta weapons fire-based?" question: that might have come up because the C'Tan's anti-melta power refers to fire-based weapons and includes melta.
Not true.
The C'tan power specifies it as 'fire-based weapons AND melta-weapons', which shows us that they are two different categories.
Otacon wrote: Where does this assumption keep coming from? Go look in the 6th edition BRB, Flame and Melta are two completely different sections on the weapon type listing. It's around page 66 or so.
This!
It is possible that in Translated versions it is different though, so it would be great if we could get verification as the English Version there is no confusion between "Flame" and "Melta' weapons in the descriptors.
Sigvatr wrote: In regards to the "Are melta weapons fire-based?" question: that might have come up because the C'Tan's anti-melta power refers to fire-based weapons and includes melta.
Not true.
The C'tan power specifies it as 'fire-based weapons AND melta-weapons', which shows us that they are two different categories.
Badly phrased on my part. I was merely given an explanation for why some people might be confused.
Sigvatr wrote: In regards to the "Are melta weapons fire-based?" question: that might have come up because the C'Tan's anti-melta power refers to fire-based weapons and includes melta.
And it came up because the exact words were flame weapons as detailed in the weapon section of the BRB, which has melta under that heading. So unless 40k Radio paraphrased badly, melta will be included and for some reason they just think otherwise.
Melta weapons has a seperate heading from Flamer weapons in my book (page 56/57).
Redemption wrote: That was my impression as well. So it either hits the target, or increases the pressure by adding a new missile on its tail that could hit in upcoming rounds, possibly forcing the flyer to fly off the board or face impending doom.
That's what it looks like so far, yeah.
I think that GW is trying to strike a balance between AA units that completely nerf flyers by blowing them up in one turn and introducing a mechanic that makes running both flyers and AA a little more dynamic and exciting (perhaps even "cinematic"). Now that the mechanic has been introduced, we could see variations on the theme, such as IG units that get chaff (fire like a smoke launcher to remove all "savant-locked" missile tokens) or appropriately Orky "Heat-Seekas" (savant-locked missiles that strike against rear armor but on a savant-lock roll of 1, they veer off course, homing in on the nearest vehicle instead). That's my hope, at least.
Youngblood13 wrote: Orky "Heat-Seekas" (savant-locked missiles that strike against rear armor but on a savant-lock roll of 1, they veer off course, homing in on the nearest vehicle instead). That's my hope, at least.
HisDivineShadow wrote: It may weighing in late, but that Savant lock sounds incredibly broken. Even misses give you a chance to hit ? How is that balanced?
Oh dear... I'm sorry, but my two reactions to this are best summarized as and
It's a one shot gun it's coming off of, so I see it as a fair trade. And it's not like anyone who is worried about those markers (by the way, it's 5+ for the missiles to hit, just tossing it out there. It's not like it's Space Marine BS here) can't just fly off the board to get rid of them.
I'm curious if the markers go away if the missile fails to hit a second time (on that 5+).
Automatically Appended Next Post:.
From 40k Radio:
Two things to clarify from stuff I am seeing pop up
-Yes Sicarius still has Rites of Battle
-And no Melta Weapons are not in the Flame Weapon category...not quite sure where this train of thought came from
One shot? That makes it a little more balanced, then. There was no mention of it being a one shot Seeking HK in the first post.
Good lord, how does GW produce such lame teaser content and post them to social media without shame? :lol:
"Okay, so here's the plan: We'll show this blurry, out of focus picture of a guy looking like cyborg Jesus. Then, get this, we'll flip the image to mirror on the other side of the frame. It's gonna be awesome."
For me a teaser trailer should provide one with an actual hint or tease of what you are actually going to be able to buy, albeit in silhouette or a partial shot etc etc.
As it is it just looks like an artistic interpretation of a Nine inch Nails video.
Which is fine in its own right but , for me, fails rather grandly with regards to what it should be doing.
More worryingly/depressingly , I am not surprised at this at all.
GW has this habit of making really bad films with Windows movie maker. They could, you know, show the models, maybe a few images of the sprues or talk about the codex?
Salted Diamond wrote: I might have missed it somewhere, but are the limited ed covers going to be the same price as the regular? I didn't pay attention when the Tau and Eldar limited ones came out to remember.
Not a chance. Hell will have long frozen over before that happens. You're looking at close to double a regular codex, maybe more considering its SM.
Sort of wasn't a teaser. These vids are as the content within them state pay attention to our website on this date for something special. As with every release they will post subsequent vids about what new purchases will be coming. All in all though it's a courtesy to us fans. They are under no obligation to do a thing. Defending GW something I loathe doing.
warscribe888 wrote: Sort of wasn't a teaser. These vids are as the content within them state pay attention to our website on this date for something special. As with every release they will post subsequent vids about what new purchases will be coming. All in all though it's a courtesy to us fans. They are under no obligation to do a thing. Defending GW something I loathe doing.
They may show a second equally mediocre video. They won't talk about the product until Friday when things are up for preorder. If they were doing the fans a courtesy, they would've pulled the old codex (and potentially BT codex if that rumor is true) from the store. Now om those noms.
Compel wrote: What is that image supposed to *be* anyhow?
Maybe someone messed up and it's an Inquisition model in the video instead of a marine one :p
Seems about par for the course for GW.
it's an Astartes with cables plugged into all his neural shunts, most likely during his final series of surgeries. I for one liked the vid if that wasn't clear from my previous posts. Just enough to get me excited and pumped while waiting for my pre-workout to kick in.
reds8n wrote: For me a teaser trailer should provide one with an actual hint or tease of what you are actually going to be able to buy, albeit in silhouette or a partial shot etc etc.
To be fair, the video itself is labeled "AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR".
And I'm fairly sure at this point that it was GW themselves who leaked those nice, clean in focus photos of the upcoming releases.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Good lord, how does GW produce such lame teaser content and post them to social media without shame? :lol:
"Okay, so here's the plan: We'll show this blurry, out of focus picture of a guy looking like cyborg Jesus. Then, get this, we'll flip the image to mirror on the other side of the frame. It's gonna be awesome."
My good man! let us not forget that GW's employees work based on effort and attitude, not so much about skill or knowledge.
All kidding aside, I do agree. Considering PP has only been around for a decade and they are already planning to decimate the miniatures race by superior advertising and 3rd party interest through video game development and other media; meanwhile GW has been around since the 70's and are churning out media like this? It can be determined that the hobbying of GW is dead and a strict focus on profits is here.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Good lord, how does GW produce such lame teaser content and post them to social media without shame? :lol:
"Okay, so here's the plan: We'll show this blurry, out of focus picture of a guy looking like cyborg Jesus. Then, get this, we'll flip the image to mirror on the other side of the frame. It's gonna be awesome."
My good man! let us not forget that GW's employees work based on effort and attitude, not so much about skill or knowledge.
All kidding aside, I do agree. Considering PP has only been around for a decade and they are already planning to decimate the miniatures race by superior advertising and 3rd party interest through video game development and other media; meanwhile GW has been around since the 70's and are churning out media like this? It can be determined that the hobbying of GW is dead and a strict focus on profits is here.
Dawn of War 1+2(and their expansions) and Space Marine would like a word with you.
Yeah, the teasers aren't great. They very rarely actually "tease" anything besides art that we have had before(or as we saw with the Eldar some new artwork), but the point isn't to give you a full tease. It's to let you know that there is a date for an announcement--and that date marks when we see the actual preorders go up, which the following week starts a "faction focus" on the "What's New Today" section.
timetowaste85 wrote: Wow, 4 of you correcting me. Lol. I feel loved. Zion, there's 152 pages: I missed you specifying 14, I just saw "down 5", and their old cost was 16, so...I assumed 11. 14 doesn't exactly thrill me: losing extra toys on bikes kills the Space Knight feel they had. No rage kills the crazy zealot feel of them. The special characters feel half assed, the Champion feels like they took the most expensive option he had away that boosted the whole army, but kept his cost. I'll still buy the book, and I hate sounding like I'm a downer, I really do guys. But the chapter I finally decided upon just ended up feeling half assed. I'm still gonna try to make the best of it.
Just use Dark Angels to represent your white scars. They have the best all bike army anyway. The raven knights really tipped the scales. THe Banner of devastation makes them stronger and you can special build all the characters with parts from other models.
I was hoping to do an all bike army one day with CSM but I guess that is on the back burner for a good few years until the next codex
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Good lord, how does GW produce such lame teaser content and post them to social media without shame? :lol:
"Okay, so here's the plan: We'll show this blurry, out of focus picture of a guy looking like cyborg Jesus. Then, get this, we'll flip the image to mirror on the other side of the frame. It's gonna be awesome."
My good man! let us not forget that GW's employees work based on effort and attitude, not so much about skill or knowledge.
All kidding aside, I do agree. Considering PP has only been around for a decade and they are already planning to decimate the miniatures race by superior advertising and 3rd party interest through video game development and other media; meanwhile GW has been around since the 70's and are churning out media like this? It can be determined that the hobbying of GW is dead and a strict focus on profits is here.
Dawn of War 1+2(and their expansions) and Space Marine would like a word with you.
Yeah, the teasers aren't great. They very rarely actually "tease" anything besides art that we have had before(or as we saw with the Eldar some new artwork), but the point isn't to give you a full tease. It's to let you know that there is a date for an announcement--and that date marks when we see the actual preorders go up, which the following week starts a "faction focus" on the "What's New Today" section.
Yes, they serve their (limited) purpose. But seriously, in GW's extensive catalog of images for their most iconic line of models, they couldn't find a second graphic to use, instead of just mirroring the one we saw 2 seconds before? It's insanely lazy.
And as for Dawn of War and Space Marine, these days GW seems more interested in collecting licensing fees on shovelware.
So I have been a little back and forth on the whole Black Templar thing, and upset about them losing some of their fluff...but what my buddy pointed out today was that GW may have inadvertently added some fluff to the Black Templars.
So get this, Righteous Zeal was an old style rule...and it was great in the days of just killing everything on the field. And admittedly, that's what Templars like to do. But in today's edition, objectives in 5/6 of the game, and Righteous Zeal has a better chance at HURTING you than helping. So getting rid of it makes sense rules wise to update the Templars. When I heard that though, I was upset at the BTs I love so dearly losing their fluffiness...but I was proven wrong. This REALLY helps our fluff.
Right now BT players tend to treat neophytes like ablative wound meatbags. Stick them in the front to protect the REAL Templars. Totally counter fluff. I even did it because they were MORE LIKELY TO DIE! That way I would get a righteous zeal every turn and get closer and closer at the cost of lives. NOW though, without the righteous zeal, and by KEEPING the large crusader squads, Black Templars should be putting their neophytes in the back. That way you are more likely to have them survive for the charge. You want those 3+ saves to keep your weaker guys alive. This way my Black Tide shows its most armored front to the incoming bullets while the newbies in the back follow my initiates. As if the Initiates actually cared and wanted to protect their younger brothers.
I potentially get a 20 man blob of S4 T4 attacks, the only difference is their armor save...and on a Neophyte, the 4+ save is STILL better than a lot of other things that I would be using crusaders squads to charge. In the end, to summarize...without righteous zeal, I wont put my neophytes up front, but rather my Initiates will actually protect them as they go into combat, which is COMPLETELY in line with BT fluff.
The Black Tide is coming soon to tabletops near you.
And as for Dawn of War and Space Marine, these days GW seems more interested in collecting licensing fees on shovelware.
You are aware that quality games have a lead-in development time and that the main 40k/Fantasy licenses only recently changed hands from THQ to Sega right?
These "shovelware" games that you are referring to are quick development times by small name studios for mobile platforms/PCs.
What's more I'm sure that someone as qualified as you to be discussing "shovelware" should be aware of the fact that licensed games which are also getting console releases have been put on a hold if they were at a certain point in the development cycle so that they can instead be released on the next generation of consoles.
Sorry for the OT, but it's very irksome reading about this whole "shovelware" nonsense.
reds8n wrote: For me a teaser trailer should provide one with an actual hint or tease of what you are actually going to be able to buy, albeit in silhouette or a partial shot etc etc.
Doing so will always be a risk - if you e.g. show a model, people might like it or hate it. If you leave it obtuse and unclear on what you'll actually be getting, you keep people on their toes and excited about to find out what it's going to be. GW wants people in their stores as entering a store makes the average person feel the obligation to buy something. Personally, I fully agree with you, but I can also see why GW (might!) take the other route.
And as for Dawn of War and Space Marine, these days GW seems more interested in collecting licensing fees on shovelware.
You are aware that quality games have a lead-in development time and that the main 40k/Fantasy licenses only recently changed hands from THQ to Sega right?
These "shovelware" games that you are referring to are quick development times by small name studios for mobile platforms/PCs.
What's more I'm sure that someone as qualified as you to be discussing "shovelware" should be aware of the fact that licensed games which are also getting console releases have been put on a hold if they were at a certain point in the development cycle so that they can instead be released on the next generation of consoles.
Sorry for the OT, but it's very irksome reading about this whole "shovelware" nonsense.
Last I heard from the THQ meltdown there was no transfer of the 40k license to Sega. They acquired Fantasy before THQ died, and Sega picked up Relic in the sale of THQs assets. The 40k license was not included in any sort of dealing at that time, and I'm pretty sure there's been no confirmation of any licensing to Sega since. Given Sega does have Fantasy Battle and Relic it does seem like a bit of a no-brainer they'd get a hold of 40k for more Dawn of War(especially given, since the transfer, some guy high up in Relic was talking about ideas they have for DoW3 if it were to happen), nothing is set in stone. That, and from the blurb on video game royalties in their financials, and all the smaller deals they've been doing, they definitely seem to be embracing the smaller games approach full on.
the new White Dwarf pics sre pretty cool...
Forge Word steal the show again, with Erebus and Kor Phaeron...
ironically enough, the Tac Squad looks to be the best new kit of the release...
relatively cheap, and loads of cool new bits...
i'm looking forward to reading this issue on Friday...
Gigantic holy to those two pics of the combined forces of Ultramarines, fists and that Salamanders sergeant vs the Ork. Credit where credit is due that art is brilliant. Plus the one fist has ein beard, a Empire beard from fantasy!
I would love for the Black Templar and Salamander covers to be turned into posters as well. I don't even play either chapter and I'd snap those up in a heartbeat. As for the Codex itself, as long as I get a copy I don't care which chapter is on it. It'll be the art inside that I'll use for ideas for my chapter of Space Marines.
The Dark Angel company veteran on the far right wielding a combi-plasma - the ammo drum looks remarkably like the ones that come with Anvil Industry combi-weapons...
Damn it, it all looks so good. Although they do seem to have gone out of their way to keep tac. marines looking bland and un-dynamic, despite the cool new arms we've seen in other previews.
Compel wrote: What is that image supposed to *be* anyhow?
Maybe someone messed up and it's an Inquisition model in the video instead of a marine one :p
Seems about par for the course for GW.
It's a Space Marine being constructed from someone who isn't yet a Space Marine, accompanied by a paraphrase of the Emperor's decree regarding the creation of the Space Marines.
The execution isn't the best, but the idea is pretty solid. And fun.
Where are you seeing Erebus and Kor"phaeron in those pics? They're too blurry for me to make out the army lists which I assume is where your seeing them?
Between that, the things I need to finish converting my SW, and getting my mitts on a Stormraven finally, along with the book, this is gonna be expensive.
Puscifer wrote: Kor Phaeron though? His right arm is too short.
Umm, you think it might have something to do with the fact that his right arm is on a curved magazine page in a gakky picture? Or you know, held back with the elbow tightly folded?
lord_blackfang wrote: So in the battle report 2 centurions die to small arms fire and the last one flees. At least they're not trying to oversell the new toys
"We here at GW do not really know how to play the game. We are what you would call a fluff player. Luckily for you, we are not competent list builders, which gives you the opportunity to have imbalanced combibations."
Or as they say in WD, "we play several games and choose the best", whatever that means...
Please guys, learn to play or at least know the rules :(
Salted Diamond wrote: I might have missed it somewhere, but are the limited ed covers going to be the same price as the regular? I didn't pay attention when the Tau and Eldar limited ones came out to remember.
Not a chance. Hell will have long frozen over before that happens. You're looking at close to double a regular codex, maybe more considering its SM.
Or the Toronto Maple Leafs winning the Stanley Cup?
Seeing the way the Chapter Tactics works out makes a lot more sense. The earlier rumors made it out like UM's would be able to always reroll 1's etc for shooting, instead it's really just one turn, which makes it much less ridiculous but still rather good, while having the other two as well makes for an interesting incentive to build "a little bit of everything" armies to take best advantage of such abilities, which is kind of a cool way to do UM's.
Instinctual wrote: Hmm, was eyeballing the WD pics and spotted the Sternguard listing as follows (Under Sword Brethren):
10 Sternguard Vets for 295 pts 1 Heavy Flamer
2 Combi-gravs
Castellan (Sgt) with:
1 grav pistol
1 power sword
Melta Bomb
Assuming the Sternguard are 22pts apiece as per rumor, this would mean 220pts, leaving 75pts for upgrades.
Assuming no change in price for the HF, PS, and Melta Bombs (10,15,5) you're down to 45 points for the grav weapons.
If the rumors are true, and combi-weps are indeed 10pts a piece for Sterns, that means that Grav Pistol cost 25pts.
It is possible that the combi-gravs are specifically more expensive (15pts?), due to rare tech or whatnot, which would make the pistol 15pts as well.
I'm assuming there is no cost to upgrade to a Vet Sgt aka DAs, as the entire unit is made up of 1st Company Veterans after all
What do you guys think?
Do I have the points right, and what do you think this means for the cost of grav weapons if this is true?
I thought I had read something about Heavy Flamers costing more this edition. I don't remember where, but I thought their cost went up 5 pts or something.
Instinctual wrote: Hmm, was eyeballing the WD pics and spotted the Sternguard listing as follows (Under Sword Brethren):
10 Sternguard Vets for 295 pts 1 Heavy Flamer
2 Combi-gravs
Castellan (Sgt) with:
1 grav pistol
1 power sword
Melta Bomb
Assuming the Sternguard are 22pts apiece as per rumor, this would mean 220pts, leaving 75pts for upgrades.
Assuming no change in price for the HF, PS, and Melta Bombs (10,15,5) you're down to 45 points for the grav weapons.
If the rumors are true, and combi-weps are indeed 10pts a piece for Sterns, that means that Grav Pistol cost 25pts.
It is possible that the combi-gravs are specifically more expensive (15pts?), due to rare tech or whatnot, which would make the pistol 15pts as well.
I'm assuming there is no cost to upgrade to a Vet Sgt aka DAs, as the entire unit is made up of 1st Company Veterans after all
What do you guys think?
Do I have the points right, and what do you think this means for the cost of grav weapons if this is true?
I thought I had read something about Heavy Flamers costing more this edition. I don't remember where, but I thought their cost went up 5 pts or something.
If so, and assuming no Sgt upgrade cost and 10pt combis, that would make the Grav pistol 20pts or so.
SickSix wrote: Ok, other than the dust jacket, what is justifying the $115 price of the collectors editions?
The artwork (genuinely gorgeous in the case of the 1st Foundings) and the other menial add-ons like edged, "ultra high quality paper" and the priviledge of being 1 of 500.
It's really getting a bit embarrassing now, every release GW put out more and more cartoonish stuff, and FW turn round and just shame them.
Angron, Contemptors, Legion Praetors, Mechanicum units(and an army list rumoured for HH book 2), and now these two beauties? Hell, I'll be buying them just for the heads nevermind the rest of it, incredible character.
I think this might be my first solo FW order where I get free shipping
@YODHRIN I have not bought any Gw stuff for two years. FW all the way, the price is the same at this point. YES, yes I know the two are one and the same but wow, Fw just blows them away.
Salted Diamond wrote: I might have missed it somewhere, but are the limited ed covers going to be the same price as the regular? I didn't pay attention when the Tau and Eldar limited ones came out to remember.
Not a chance. Hell will have long frozen over before that happens. You're looking at close to double a regular codex, maybe more considering its SM.
Or the Toronto Maple Leafs winning the Stanley Cup?
OverwatchCNC wrote: While I buy all my codices in the iBook form now I may need to buy a hardcover too if these rumors are true and they have a Salamanders cover.
I have to see it to believe it, you buy two of something? Go to GE, take out your iPad, take a picture of the cover, and get out with your money.
I am so excited that my Imperial Fists can be competitive again, too bad I will be their commander and thus doom them to last place. I am sure these rumors are fact though. 40K radio has a top reputation for good, reliable, information. The mini-dexs are what we still don't know about, right? The "go plastic" direction is the really big bomb. I am so glad we can get out of metal and finecrap. I want to see the second wave rumors, I think we are going to get some cool models.
Oh, forgot to ask before: Zion, next time you contact the 40K Radio guys, see if they're in the mood to answer(ideally accurately) whether or not Legion of the Damned benefit from the Chapter Tactics of the army that includes them, could you?
Yodhrin wrote: Oh, forgot to ask before: Zion, next time you contact the 40K Radio guys, see if they're in the mood to answer(ideally accurately) whether or not Legion of the Damned benefit from the Chapter Tactics of the army that includes them, could you?
Lobukia wrote: I asked this a page or three ago, but those beautiful covers buried it: does God of War still allow auto pass/fail of morale checks?
They said he could in the past, but then said the thing about the second use of one of the tactics. At this point....I don't friggin' know.
Remember kids, poor communications kills. Just ask the Emperor.
Yeah, I listened to it twice... sounded like "same as before... " and then into the using a tactic twice, but not sure if they were correcting or adding to the prior statement
40K Radio wrote: "No Legion of the Damned do not have Chapter Tactics and are not affected by any chapter."
40K Radio wrote: "Marneus Calgar's God of War rule: all friendly units with Ultramarine Chapter Tactics can choose whether to pass or fail any morale check they are called on to make. You may also use a single Combat Doctrine twice."
Thanks Facebook who keeps emailing me because I posted something on Facebook in someone's comments despite me repeatedly turning all Notifications off!
davou wrote: omg! I get to keep auto fail morale..... at a 270 point tax
275 actually. 285 if he's rocking his Termi-duds. He also lets you use one of the Combat Doctrines a second time, and with the improvements to Honor Guard i could see cause to use 3 units of them in large games.
Okay....REALLY large games.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, questions posted. I'll post answers as soon as I see them.
I asked:
1. How much do Venerable Dreads cost without upgrades/options?
2. Do Chapter Masters have access to any wargear that Captains don't?
3. Does the Master of the Forge still let you bring Dreadnoughts as Heavy Support Choices?
4. Other than the bikes do any of the HQs make any other unit scoring?
40k Radio:
All those questions will be answered on this weeks show. I will give you a few random tidbits to tide you over.
-There are 6 Chapter Relics
-Assault Marines as troops is still a Blood Angels exclusive
-Heavy Flamers only available to Sternguard and LotD for Power Armored infantry. -Bolster Defenses is the same as Dark Angels
Honor Guard seem pretty awesome, and they might be worth building a list around. While there has been a proliferation of AP2 weapons, if I can stuff 30 honor guard into a list at around 260 per 10 (25 per model, and 35 for Chapter Champion), you can fit 30 of those 2+, Power sword wielding bad boys in with 780 points, and that is a lot of 2+ armor that has to be dealt with, and quickly, before they decide to charge. Sure, Calgar eats up another 275 points, and you still need troops, but that force could be very potent.
Maybe take Calgar, three tactical squads in drop pods with meltagun load outs, and then three Honor guard squads in drop pods. Tac squads pop vehicles before the Honor guard come in. Without upgrades, doing that with 5 man Tac squads runs 1545 for 3x 5man Tac squads, 3x10 man Honor guard, and Calgar in Terminator armor.
On second thought, maybe it's best to do this at 2500.
Still, dealing with 30 honor guard with 2+ saves all around would be really tough. If nothing else, they are at least worth considering investing in, whereas before I never even considered them seriously.
No, don't be It's at least as good, if not better now.
1) Our IF and Sally brothers' tactics have a point now
2) the once a game mechanic rewards good tactical decision making (something very UM)
3) when you need it, you can bust out the other two now... so you have a very flexible force (again, very UM)
4) its not crazy broken and us 20 year vets of the UM don't have to listen to as much whining this time around
DogofWar1 wrote: Honor Guard seem pretty awesome, and they might be worth building a list around. While there has been a proliferation of AP2 weapons, if I can stuff 30 honor guard into a list at around 260 per 10 (25 per model, and 35 for Chapter Champion), you can fit 30 of those 2+, Power sword wielding bad boys in with 780 points, and that is a lot of 2+ armor that has to be dealt with, and quickly, before they decide to charge. Sure, Calgar eats up another 275 points, and you still need troops, but that force could be very potent.
Maybe take Calgar, three tactical squads in drop pods with meltagun load outs, and then three Honor guard squads in drop pods. Tac squads pop vehicles before the Honor guard come in. Without upgrades, doing that with 5 man Tac squads runs 1545 for 3x 5man Tac squads, 3x10 man Honor guard, and Calgar in Terminator armor.
On second thought, maybe it's best to do this at 2500.
Still, dealing with 30 honor guard with 2+ saves all around would be really tough. If nothing else, they are at least worth considering investing in, whereas before I never even considered them seriously.
We do play 2.5k games and I already have 20 HG... maybe its time to build ten more
Largeblastmarker wrote: Any word on 'eavy flamers in tac squads? i would love to drop a pod and screw some horde player! otherwise I will just have to stick with sternies.
We do play 2.5k games and I already have 20 HG... maybe its time to build ten more
Considering it only costs maybe 60 points more to field 30 than it did to field 20 (before upgrades), I'd say those 10 more are definitely warranted.
Alternatively, take squads of 9, 9, and 10, putting Calgar in squad 1 and Tigurius (or whoever) in squad 2, and pay about 10 points more for those 28 Honor guard than you did for them in 5th.
We do play 2.5k games and I already have 20 HG... maybe its time to build ten more
Considering it only costs maybe 60 points more to field 30 than it did to field 20 (before upgrades), I'd say those 10 more are definitely warranted.
Alternatively, take squads of 9, 9, and 10, putting Calgar in squad 1 and Tigurius (or whoever) in squad 2, and pay about 10 points more for those 28 Honor guard than you did for them in 5th.
It gets even better, if the point values for upgrades stay the same, it'll cost you only 555 pts for 3 units of 5 Honor Guard, ALL WITH RELIC BLADES!
It gets even better, if the point values for upgrades stay the same, it'll cost you only 555 pts for 3 units of 5 Honor Guard, ALL WITH RELIC BLADES!
Damn, I'm ACTUALLY considering UM now...
That sounds nasty, but I'm not sure how I feel about it. Delivering those models to their target is always tough, so I think I'd personally opt for more models, giving 1 or 2 relic blades and the company champ a TH, than go all relic blades.
I could see an opponent chewing through 6-7 Honor Guard in a turn with a bunch of plasma/small arms fire, so three units of five could become three units of three pretty quick, while losing 7 of 30 still means you've got 23 Honor guard ready to charge next turn.
Either way though, 25 points for a 2+, power sword wielding model is a huge steal.
It gets even better, if the point values for upgrades stay the same, it'll cost you only 555 pts for 3 units of 5 Honor Guard, ALL WITH RELIC BLADES!
Damn, I'm ACTUALLY considering UM now...
That sounds nasty, but I'm not sure how I feel about it. Delivering those models to their target is always tough, so I think I'd personally opt for more models, giving 1 or 2 relic blades and the company champ a TH, than go all relic blades.
I could see an opponent chewing through 6-7 Honor Guard in a turn with a bunch of plasma/small arms fire, so three units of five could become three units of three pretty quick, while losing 7 of 30 still means you've got 23 Honor guard ready to charge next turn.
Either way though, 25 points for a 2+, power sword wielding model is a huge steal.
A use I'm thinking about is to take 10, load them in a rhino, and sit them on an objective close to home, only popping out to claim it on turn 5. I really doubt that anyone could dislodge ten 2+ save guys, and if anyone tries, you shred them. It's an expensive setup, probably around 310 points, but it's probably as close to 3 guaranteed victory points as you can get.
Do you really believe honor guard will be scoring units??
No, don't be It's at least as good, if not better now.
1) Our IF and Sally brothers' tactics have a point now
2) the once a game mechanic rewards good tactical decision making (something very UM)
3) when you need it, you can bust out the other two now... so you have a very flexible force (again, very UM)
4) its not crazy broken and us 20 year vets of the UM don't have to listen to as much whining this time around
As a 19 year UM vet, I totally agree with this statement; you hit the nail on the head with this.
Everything is useful now and I don't see any traits trumping others as originally believed. It comes down to you really playing like your chapter to make those critical tactical decisions.
All appear to be worthy.
I've got to say, I think the standard dex art is the best of the bunch and the most desirable to own even before you get to the idiocy of double the price for a different cover for the limiteds.
Standard dex and a box of vanguards will likely cost less than the limited dex, I know where my money is going.
If it wasn't for double pricing I'd be tempted to get the Salamanders one, even though I'm a BA player. However, the ludicrous price of codices now means that the jump for just a different cover (one or two pages difference!) is far too great, particularly when that nmoney can go to buying a Sternguard or Vanguard box.
NoggintheNog wrote: I've got to say, I think the standard dex art is the best of the bunch and the most desirable to own even before you get to the idiocy of double the price for a different cover for the limiteds.
Standard dex and a box of vanguards will likely cost less than the limited dex, I know where my money is going.
but but but you get to be 1 of 500 chumps. are you really going to pass up that opportunity?
jah-joshua wrote: the new White Dwarf pics sre pretty cool...
Forge Word steal the show again, with Erebus and Kor Phaeron...
ironically enough, the Tac Squad looks to be the best new kit of the release...
relatively cheap, and loads of cool new bits...
i'm looking forward to reading this issue on Friday...
cheers
jah
Actually I think the two look rather poor. Erabus (power armour guy?) is too blinged up, though apart from that I don't mind him too much, but the other guylooks as dorky as the Termitubbies; his arms look really short, as do his legs because of his overall fatness (even compared with regular terminators) and his face looks like he's taking a crap.
Does anyone know if the razorback will retain the options like the twinlinked plasma and lascannon setup? I just modded 3 razorbacks like this and it would seriously suck if that option was no longer present!
Instinctual wrote: Hmm, was eyeballing the WD pics and spotted the Sternguard listing as follows (Under Sword Brethren):
10 Sternguard Vets for 295 pts 1 Heavy Flamer
2 Combi-gravs
Castellan (Sgt) with:
1 grav pistol
1 power sword
Melta Bomb
Assuming the Sternguard are 22pts apiece as per rumor, this would mean 220pts, leaving 75pts for upgrades.
Assuming no change in price for the HF, PS, and Melta Bombs (10,15,5) you're down to 45 points for the grav weapons.
If the rumors are true, and combi-weps are indeed 10pts a piece for Sterns, that means that Grav Pistol cost 25pts.
It is possible that the combi-gravs are specifically more expensive (15pts?), due to rare tech or whatnot, which would make the pistol 15pts as well.
I'm assuming there is no cost to upgrade to a Vet Sgt aka DAs, as the entire unit is made up of 1st Company Veterans after all
What do you guys think?
Do I have the points right, and what do you think this means for the cost of grav weapons if this is true?
I thought I had read something about Heavy Flamers costing more this edition. I don't remember where, but I thought their cost went up 5 pts or something.
If so, and assuming no Sgt upgrade cost and 10pt combis, that would make the Grav pistol 20pts or so.
Aren't Sternguard 125 for 5, then 22 each for additions? That would put them at 235 base for 10, 60 points for upgrades. 10 for HF, 10 for combi-weapon, 5 for melta bomb, 15 for sword, 10 for pistol.
Lobukia wrote: It could be worse... Try Cubs and the World Series
Automatically Appended Next Post: Back OT. I can't decided which to get: UM LE or the standard dex. Torn inside.
Ok you the internet today.
I say get the regular edition and the money saved buy some more plastic crack.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DogofWar1 wrote: Honor Guard seem pretty awesome, and they might be worth building a list around. While there has been a proliferation of AP2 weapons, if I can stuff 30 honor guard into a list at around 260 per 10 (25 per model, and 35 for Chapter Champion), you can fit 30 of those 2+, Power sword wielding bad boys in with 780 points, and that is a lot of 2+ armor that has to be dealt with, and quickly, before they decide to charge. Sure, Calgar eats up another 275 points, and you still need troops, but that force could be very potent.
Maybe take Calgar, three tactical squads in drop pods with meltagun load outs, and then three Honor guard squads in drop pods. Tac squads pop vehicles before the Honor guard come in. Without upgrades, doing that with 5 man Tac squads runs 1545 for 3x 5man Tac squads, 3x10 man Honor guard, and Calgar in Terminator armor.
On second thought, maybe it's best to do this at 2500.
Still, dealing with 30 honor guard with 2+ saves all around would be really tough. If nothing else, they are at least worth considering investing in, whereas before I never even considered them seriously.
NoggintheNog wrote: I've got to say, I think the standard dex art is the best of the bunch and the most desirable to own even before you get to the idiocy of double the price for a different cover for the limiteds.
Standard dex and a box of vanguards will likely cost less than the limited dex, I know where my money is going.
I feel the same way. The collectors are really out there price wise. Double price for a dust jacket?
DogofWar1 wrote: Honor Guard seem pretty awesome, and they might be worth building a list around. While there has been a proliferation of AP2 weapons, if I can stuff 30 honor guard into a list at around 260 per 10 (25 per model, and 35 for Chapter Champion), you can fit 30 of those 2+, Power sword wielding bad boys in with 780 points, and that is a lot of 2+ armor that has to be dealt with, and quickly, before they decide to charge. Sure, Calgar eats up another 275 points, and you still need troops, but that force could be very potent.
Maybe take Calgar, three tactical squads in drop pods with meltagun load outs, and then three Honor guard squads in drop pods. Tac squads pop vehicles before the Honor guard come in. Without upgrades, doing that with 5 man Tac squads runs 1545 for 3x 5man Tac squads, 3x10 man Honor guard, and Calgar in Terminator armor.
On second thought, maybe it's best to do this at 2500.
Still, dealing with 30 honor guard with 2+ saves all around would be really tough. If nothing else, they are at least worth considering investing in, whereas before I never even considered them seriously.
The Tau Master Race is going to ruin your day.
Fix'd to reflect the terrible truth about why the Honor Guard is still a bad option.
Just to give you guys a little preview of the rough draft I have created for the army I plan to build! I was able to get a great deal for some Crisis Suits that I had and was able to purchase x5 Drop Pods and x2 Stormtalons for them and this is what I am planning so let me know what you think! :
Spoiler:
Raven Guard Drop-Pod Assault Group Raptor
Chapter Tactic:
-Imperial Fists
HQ:
-Shadow Captain Aleron (Pedro Kantor)
ELITE:
-x10 Sternguard (*Combat Squad*)
*w/ x1 or x2 Combi Melta
-Drop Pod
-x10 Sternguard (*Combat Squad*)
*w/ x1 or x2 Combi Melta
-Drop Pod
-x10 Sternguard (*Combat Squad*)
*w/ x1 or x2 Combi Melta
-Drop Pod
Now just to make sure, will x5 man Tac Squads be able to take Drop Pods like the Space Wolf Codex? Or will they have to be x10 man (looked on here could not find it). Also any word if Thunderfire Cannons will remain or be relentless? Thanks for helping a new Space Marine player out!
If I had the money I would get one of the limited editions in a heartbeat.
Price doesnt even really bother me, it is a luxury, luxury item(same as any miniature wargame)
Then again for me it is never about the actual price, but how much it is worth to me. If it costs the same as or less than its value, you buy it. If not you dont. Dat micro 101.
Still, I am looking forward to seeing how everything is specifically priced. With he change in cost for combi weapons it might make more sense to just get 1-2 of the actual special weapon. especially for flamers which are usually 5 points compared to 10 for a combi flamer. Then if you dont need em anymore you can just make them the first casualties.
Hadn't noticed this before, but the two marines - second from the right and second from the left do not have the same torso as the marine on the far right who has the heresy style torso.
Here's hoping they're corvus torsos. The posing of the marines has been done in such a way to hide the centre of the torso on both of them.
jah-joshua wrote: the new White Dwarf pics sre pretty cool...
Forge Word steal the show again, with Erebus and Kor Phaeron...
ironically enough, the Tac Squad looks to be the best new kit of the release...
relatively cheap, and loads of cool new bits...
i'm looking forward to reading this issue on Friday...
cheers
jah
Actually I think the two look rather poor. Erabus (power armour guy?) is too blinged up, though apart from that I don't mind him too much, but the other guylooks as dorky as the Termitubbies; his arms look really short, as do his legs because of his overall fatness (even compared with regular terminators) and his face looks like he's taking a crap.
Kor Phaeron looking so awkward is what makes him great. He's not actually a Space Marine, just a genetically modified human, and the model plays that up and really emphasizes it, which is also his biggest insecurity. I think it has a lot of character!
It gets even better, if the point values for upgrades stay the same, it'll cost you only 555 pts for 3 units of 5 Honor Guard, ALL WITH RELIC BLADES!
Damn, I'm ACTUALLY considering UM now...
That sounds nasty, but I'm not sure how I feel about it. Delivering those models to their target is always tough, so I think I'd personally opt for more models, giving 1 or 2 relic blades and the company champ a TH, than go all relic blades.
I could see an opponent chewing through 6-7 Honor Guard in a turn with a bunch of plasma/small arms fire, so three units of five could become three units of three pretty quick, while losing 7 of 30 still means you've got 23 Honor guard ready to charge next turn.
Either way though, 25 points for a 2+, power sword wielding model is a huge steal.
Edit: whoops
I've tried posting this a dozen times now, but for some reason Dakka won't let me...
I've wanted to make an Honour Guard army for a very long time. I just love the concept of it and the Marneus in Terminator Armour model is one of my all time faves.
Pros
Cheap price for what you get - HG are expected to be 25pts for a 2+ sv, Boltgun and PW.
Tougher and more killy - A full squad has more attacks than an equally pointed Terminator Squad. It also has more wounds.
Jack of most trades - HG can shoot when needed and are great at CC.
Transport - You can fit a full squad, Calgar and one other Terminator Character into a Crusader. Thats a lot of points, but a ton of pain.
Free FOC - They don't take a slot.
Cons
Not troops and not scoring - Never going to be either. This would make them waaaaaay too powerful and makes other squads redundant.
Calgar - You need to take Papa Smurf and he ain't cheap, but still, he's Calgar. He brings a lot to the army for that obsence pts cost.
Delivery - They ideally need a delivery system. Land Raiders, Stormravens and to a lesser extent, Rhino and Razorback. Once they get there though, there won't be much that can stand in their way.
Tight Army Construction - Although the pts cost for three squads isn't that much, the remainder of the army needs to be air tight in construction. Remember they are not scoring or troops and you will only have a finite amount of points to get AA, AT and scoring troops.
You can also fit in up to 5 HG in a single army.
Take Calgar - 0-3.
Take a Chapter Master - 1 more.
Take an allied Chapter Master - 1 more for a total of 5.
Obviously you need to be playing a very big game to be playing that.
I can really see the army working in games of 1500+. The sweet spot may be 1750 or 1850 as you'll still have points left over to take scoring troops and AA/AT and your opponent may not be able to handle 30+ bodies with a 2+ sv and mostly armed with PW.
Another good thing about this army, is that it is fairly cheap to make. You can convert your own HG and with the cost of each squad being so high, you won't have too many models to buy.
Delivery - They ideally need a delivery system. Land Raiders, Stormravens and to a lesser extent, Rhino and Razorback. Once they get there though, there won't be much that can stand in their way.
What about Drop Podding them in, or it is sounding like they lost that as a dedicated transport in the new codex?
Tau would be a big problem for Honor Guard, but that's only if they max out on plasma. A lot of Tau armies I've seen have taken a more balanced approach, taking a good mix of AP1/2, AP3, and AP4+ weaponry that usually results in enough firepower to end 5-10 TDA equivalents if they focus fire, but not enough to down 20-30.
Any why would they? Almost no armies can spam 2+ save guys, and the one codex where you could still get Hammernaters for "cheap" is raising the price 5 pts a pop. It's overkill to bring that much plasma and AP2, when likely same strength AP4 missiles will do the trick similarly effectively, but cheaper.
3 units of honor guard, especially filled out, could be effective in a drop pod army. Drop some tactical squads with melta guns on the enemy's doorstep turn 1, crack some transports or some heavy fire support, and then when the Honor guard drop, use the pods to block LOS for most things (6 or so on the table ought to do the trick) while dangling the tactical squads there as well. And even if they do have a lot of plasma around, they might focus fire one squad of honor guard down, but the other two then likely get to ignore the brunt of the firepower, and can charge.
A Tau list specifically tailored to kill 2+ saves could certainly counter it hard, but then it likely wouldn't be very TAC and would die to armies with numbers of models over quality of models.
aliusexalio wrote: Anyone know if the razorback options like the lascannon + twinlinked plasma guns will remain?
I don't think there's been confirmation either way, but DA still has that option, so I imagine C:SM will still have it.
DogofWar1 wrote: Tau would be a big problem for Honor Guard, but that's only if they max out on plasma. A lot of Tau armies I've seen have taken a more balanced approach, taking a good mix of AP1/2, AP3, and AP4+ weaponry that usually results in enough firepower to end 5-10 TDA equivalents if they focus fire, but not enough to down 20-30.
Any why would they? Almost no armies can spam 2+ save guys, and the one codex where you could still get Hammernaters for "cheap" is raising the price 5 pts a pop. It's overkill to bring that much plasma and AP2, when likely same strength AP4 missiles will do the trick similarly effectively, but cheaper.
3 units of honor guard, especially filled out, could be effective in a drop pod army. Drop some tactical squads with melta guns on the enemy's doorstep turn 1, crack some transports or some heavy fire support, and then when the Honor guard drop, use the pods to block LOS for most things (6 or so on the table ought to do the trick) while dangling the tactical squads there as well. And even if they do have a lot of plasma around, they might focus fire one squad of honor guard down, but the other two then likely get to ignore the brunt of the firepower, and can charge.
A Tau list specifically tailored to kill 2+ saves could certainly counter it hard, but then it likely wouldn't be very TAC and would die to armies with numbers of models over quality of models.
A lot of armies can take out HG Spam.
Eldar and their Wraithspam (especially the Scythewraiths), Tau if kitted out with enough AP2, IG will tear them a new one with their shooting and Pie Plates (Oh the horror of the Executioner) and Orks will butcher them in CC through weight of numbers.
This is a very tough army, but in no means unbeatable.
You've nailed it on the head with DP. I'm hoping they've kept the option as they would make outstanding frontline DP troops.
Thinking about it, I'd probably choose units from this list...
HQ
Calgar in either form.
Either a choice of another CM with HG or Tigurius.
3 HG - Bolters and PW in DP if they can take them. Not sure on which weapons though.
Elites
Sternguard in DP, armed with either Combi Melta or those new Combi Grav guns - if they are good against armour.
Assault Terminators. Still Ballbreakingly good. Forms a solid counter charge unit. Teleports onto Calgar's Homer.
Troops
One full squad of Scouts with Telion - do they have a Locator Beacon? I'm not a Marine Player, so I don't know.
2 Tactical Squads in Rhino - Weapons to taste.
Fast Attack
Not a fan of FA but if I were to take anything, I'd take the Stormtalon - just cuz... Flyer.
Heavy Support
If not taking a Flyer, I'd take one of those AA Tanks and two Vindicators.
The thing with Honor guard, like all marines, is that delivery is key. Thirty Honor Guard will do little good against Tau if you footslog them or put them in rhinos and move them slowly, but that's pretty much the same for all marines.
Drop pods work well, as do having a bunch of distraction units, or Land Raiders.
That's why if I was running 30 HG, I'd only do so with something like 6 pods, with the first 3 having Tac squads with meltas. I probably wouldn't run it any other way, unless I wanted to spring for the Land Raiders.
Which, admittedly, would be really expensive (3x250 + 3x275 = 1525, assuming 10xHG with TH on champion, before HQ), but I'd enjoy my opponent's tears as 30 Honor Guard punch into their lines.
DogofWar1 wrote: Tau would be a big problem for Honor Guard, but that's only if they max out on plasma.
And Riptides
And Fire Warriors.
Well, after giving it a second thought, the only weapons that aren't AP1-2 and can turn up in the army are High-Yield Missile Pods, Pulse Rifles/Carbines, Seeker Missiles and Ion Cannons. The pulse weapons will have the volume of fire to bring down the Honor Guard and the others could take the choice to obliterate the rest of your army. And at the end of the day, you can have your 30 Honor Guards only to feed the glory-train of the Tau Master Race. Job well done !
But seriously... You are spending 1000+ points (!!!!!) for three big units of one-trick ponies and Papa Smurf... And the only thing you have accomplished is that you can kill random footsloggers if they are nice enough to get into charge range and not, say, run away or hide in their metal bawkses.
DogofWar1 wrote: The thing with Honor guard, like all marines, is that delivery is key. Thirty Honor Guard will do little good against Tau if you footslog them or put them in rhinos and move them slowly, but that's pretty much the same for all marines.
Drop pods work well, as do having a bunch of distraction units, or Land Raiders.
That's why if I was running 30 HG, I'd only do so with something like 6 pods, with the first 3 having Tac squads with meltas. I probably wouldn't run it any other way, unless I wanted to spring for the Land Raiders.
Which, admittedly, would be really expensive (3x250 + 3x275 = 1525, assuming 10xHG with TH on champion, before HQ), but I'd enjoy my opponent's tears as 30 Honor Guard punch into their lines.
I like that concept, personaly though i would go with Plasma. I would also use poded Strernguard
They also don't cost much more than Veterans, and in fact cost pretty much the same as Vets from 5th.
Speculatively assuming 25 pts per, plus 10 extra for champion, and another 15 for TH, that's 275 for 10, plus another 35 for rhino/drop pod = 310 pts for 10 2+ save models with power swords and a thunder hammer champ.
Basically Honor Guard in 6th are what non-jump pack Vanguard Veterans should have been in 5th. I'm sure if applied with sound tactics and solid delivery mechanics, Honor Guard could be downright deadly.
They are something you cannot ignore and must deal with. In a TAC environment, not much could deal with that.
Why should you deal with them? They are Infantry and not Beasts/Flyingwhatever that can chase me down. They can't shoot really well (bolters are not the pinnacle of shooting, so to say) and they can't bust vehicles from range and even up-close, their effectiveness is questionable. They can't do anything else other than soaking up fire and wrecking MEQ or worse face in close-combat. They won't protect your tacticals from the baledrakes, they won't help you against suits (they will just run away, except the Riptide that will beat the sh*t out of the HG) and most importantly, they won't score you objectives. In return, you will have far less stuff to do all these things so unless you are a tactical genius and/or your opponent is a complete moron, you will fight an uphill battle. A rather steep one.
But hey, at least it can beat a full-Khorne CSM army (without baledrakes of course)!
I've been making some tentative army lists myself and I must say I love the Iron Hands CT the most as they don't force you down any particular path. No matter what you take, you get a bonus.
It´s amazing to me that noone managed to rehost the Erebus and Kor Phaeron pics before they where removed from the Chinese site... Come on people! We are in a rumour forum with thousands of viewers and noone thought it might be a good idea to rehost the pics?
tarnish wrote: It´s amazing to me that noone managed to rehost the Erebus and Kor Phaeron pics before they where removed from the Chinese site... Come on people! We are in a rumour forum with thousands of viewers and noone thought it might be a good idea to rehost the pics?
It's amazing to me that noone managed to read the past couple of pages and see the links to Erebus and Kor Phaeron...I kid I keeeeeed, but really take a peek before you get too uppity.
2 pages back you can see someone has taken the time to host this for your convenience.
tarnish wrote: It´s amazing to me that noone managed to rehost the Erebus and Kor Phaeron pics before they where removed from the Chinese site... Come on people! We are in a rumour forum with thousands of viewers and noone thought it might be a good idea to rehost the pics?
tarnish wrote: It´s amazing to me that noone managed to rehost the Erebus and Kor Phaeron pics before they where removed from the Chinese site... Come on people! We are in a rumour forum with thousands of viewers and noone thought it might be a good idea to rehost the pics?
I have them all on Talk Wargaming. I even put the Battle Report in order.
tarnish wrote: It´s amazing to me that noone managed to rehost the Erebus and Kor Phaeron pics before they where removed from the Chinese site... Come on people! We are in a rumour forum with thousands of viewers and noone thought it might be a good idea to rehost the pics?
True, luckily barely anyone takes termies anymore, more so now that hammernators are gonna be 5 points more...
Not surprised that terminators keep costing 40-45 points since the sane thing would be to actually lower their cost as they are to expensive as they are.
Personally I don't like the new MkVII models. They looks different. Longer "noses", larger pads, rounder chests. Maybe its just the pic but they look like a step back from the one on sale now.
Deadshot wrote: Personally I don't like the new MkVII models. They looks different. Longer "noses", larger pads, rounder chests. Maybe its just the pic but they look like a step back from the one on sale now.
Any particular models? Are you meaning the Character models, or are you basing this on the new Stern/Van kits, or are you talking about the Tac kit?
If it is the Tac box then I think you be cray-z, as for the others I am not really seeing the "longer noses" or what have you. Could you link the pic you think reflects this the most?
They are something you cannot ignore and must deal with. In a TAC environment, not much could deal with that.
Why should you deal with them? They are Infantry and not Beasts/Flyingwhatever that can chase me down. They can't shoot really well (bolters are not the pinnacle of shooting, so to say) and they can't bust vehicles from range and even up-close, their effectiveness is questionable. They can't do anything else other than soaking up fire and wrecking MEQ or worse face in close-combat. They won't protect your tacticals from the baledrakes, they won't help you against suits (they will just run away, except the Riptide that will beat the sh*t out of the HG) and most importantly, they won't score you objectives. In return, you will have far less stuff to do all these things so unless you are a tactical genius and/or your opponent is a complete moron, you will fight an uphill battle. A rather steep one.
But hey, at least it can beat a full-Khorne CSM army (without baledrakes of course)!
If you don't deal with them, they are going to murder your infantry or worse. It's not the fact they will run you down, whatever they face in cc, will just die. They have enough attacks and wounds to take out anything.
Obviously you need to equip them for each eventuality, but seeing a unit of power axe wielding nutters take out an equally pointed assault terminator squad, I'm convinced that they will work.
Honorguard are in no way scary in 6th edition. They don't follow the 3 tenants of assaulting in 6th edition.
-Must re-roll charge range
-Must ignore cover
-Must move 12" in movement phase.
Only then is assaulting as reliable as shooting and thus viable.
They don't even meet one of those requirements! SM really don't have any decent assault elements for the current edition, much the same as Eldar.
Kirasu wrote: Honorguard are in no way scary in 6th edition. They don't follow the 3 tenants of assaulting in 6th edition.
-Must re-roll charge range
-Must ignore cover
-Must move 12" in movement phase.
Only then is assaulting as reliable as shooting and thus viable.
They don't even meet one of those requirements! SM really don't have any decent assault elements for the current edition, much the same as Eldar.
So you're saying all assault units should be Ravenguard Assault Marines?
I don't agree with your assessment if only for the fact that I don't agree with the idea that any unit should be eritten of just because it's not the most optimal choice ever. At least the 3 Units of Honor Guard and Calgar in a drop pod is an entertaining and interesting idea. The last thing this game needs is more codexes being told they can "only play effectively with. X" and reducing the game to a bunch if identical army lists.
but seeing a unit of power axe wielding nutters take out an equally pointed assault terminator squad,
So everyones up to speed here's the maths 10 assault terminators will be 450 points (using big numbers for easy maths) that's 18 HG.
You strike at the same time (we'll assume you magically got into combat with no one charging)
Terminators: 20 attacks 10 Hits 8.33 dead HG.
HG: 54 attacks 27 hits 18 wounds 6 dead HG
HG lose combat but will win the war of attrition as the Terminators are down to 4 guys.
Round 2 assuming HG run away and the Teinators charge them:
Termmies: 12 attacks 6 hits 5 more dead.
HG: 30 attacks 15 hits 10 wounds 3 TDAs dead down to 1 Terminator...
Last round Terminators: 2 attacks 1 hit 1 dead.
HG: 15 attacks 7.5 hits 5 wounds last termmie is over killed. Still 4 HG left.
That's ignoring shooting (which HG do and Terminators don't) against any other type of terminator the story is worse for the Terminator. At 25 points HG become a top tier combat unit.
If you don't deal with them, they are going to murder your infantry or worse. It's not the fact they will run you down, whatever they face in cc, will just die. They have enough attacks and wounds to take out anything.
And what if the infantry they want to butcher simply runs away? It's not like they can really catch up...
Kirasu wrote: Honorguard are in no way scary in 6th edition. They don't follow the 3 tenants of assaulting in 6th edition.
-Must re-roll charge range
-Must ignore cover
-Must move 12" in movement phase.
Only then is assaulting as reliable as shooting and thus viable.
They don't even meet one of those requirements! SM really don't have any decent assault elements for the current edition, much the same as Eldar.
So you're saying all assault units should be Ravenguard Assault Marines?
I don't agree with your assessment if only for the fact that I don't agree with the idea that any unit should be eritten of just because it's not the most optimal choice ever. At least the 3 Units of Honor Guard and Calgar in a drop pod is an entertaining and interesting idea. The last thing this game needs is more codexes being told they can "only play effectively with. X" and reducing the game to a bunch if identical army lists.
+1.
Heaven forbid people play different armies that suit their play style.
Siigh.. Black Templars, the only chapter in the Imperium that will complain for hitting on initiative with AP2.
Because how many characters can do that?
Everyone in the Chaos Daemons codex for example. And I dunno if you will ever meet a cc character who isn't from that codex... And between Daemon Princes and Bloodthirsters the EC has a snowball's chance in hell. Yeah, maybe he can beat Captains, Tau Commanders and their ilk, but they are low-league players so no glory in doing that.
DPs and Bloodthirsters cost about twice as much as the EC, so we might not expect him to have much of a chance in hell. If he was 300 points, maybe he should be able to stand up to a bloodthirster
Deadshot wrote: Personally I don't like the new MkVII models. They looks different. Longer "noses", larger pads, rounder chests. Maybe its just the pic but they look like a step back from the one on sale now.
Any particular models? Are you meaning the Character models, or are you basing this on the new Stern/Van kits, or are you talking about the Tac kit?
If it is the Tac box then I think you be cray-z, as for the others I am not really seeing the "longer noses" or what have you. Could you link the pic you think reflects this the most?
Yea, I'm not seeing whatever it is he's talking about either. I even grabbed some of my Tactical bits and DV/AoBR starter marines to compare.
If you don't deal with them, they are going to murder your infantry or worse. It's not the fact they will run you down, whatever they face in cc, will just die. They have enough attacks and wounds to take out anything.
And what if the infantry they want to butcher simply runs away? It's not like they can really catch up...
Then their job is done and the offending, cowards are not shooting at anything else.
Dont be too excited unless there's a way to buy EW or +1T
That's exactly the thing, one of the relics is supposed to give EW. I think the rumors are that it's a shield, basically allowing you to make a Lysander clone, or even better, one in Artificer Armor who can sweep.
Which ever it is, its most likely going to cost 65pts, which is how much the most expensive relic is supposed to cost. I really hope if its the shield it still has the 3++
If it was an EW storm shield, 65 pts would make perfect sense, since SS is usually 30 points, and EW is 35ish. The one thing is that if you upgrade an Iron Halo, 30 pts to go from 4++ to 3++ is a bit steep, but getting EW on a 4W chapter master, especially if you give him artificer armor, is Nasty awesome.
rumor is it is a combat shield, not a storm shield. So it will probably cost less but come with a 6++ instead of a 3++
Archons can take the Huskblade. AP2 with Instant Death.
Really when did that happen - missed that!!!? I thought the Huskblade was justa "power weapon" that caused instant death - so a Power Sword Husk Blade would be AP3 and only a Power Axe AP2? That would be great for my Archon if true
Just checked the FAQs - thanks sooo much for this
sorry bit off topic
he is str3, but yeah it is very powerful at WS7 Init 7
Deadshot wrote: Personally I don't like the new MkVII models. They looks different. Longer "noses", larger pads, rounder chests. Maybe its just the pic but they look like a step back from the one on sale now.
Any particular models? Are you meaning the Character models, or are you basing this on the new Stern/Van kits, or are you talking about the Tac kit?
If it is the Tac box then I think you be cray-z, as for the others I am not really seeing the "longer noses" or what have you. Could you link the pic you think reflects this the most?
Yea, I'm not seeing whatever it is he's talking about either. I even grabbed some of my Tactical bits and DV/AoBR starter marines to compare.
The picture of the sternguard with the combi-grav, or the second vanguard on the left of the box front have helmets in a style I've not seen before. Sort of long, stretched, and frowny. I'm not a big fan of them. I'm not sure if these are the ones he means, but I know all of those are getting a one way trip to my bitz box...
but seeing a unit of power axe wielding nutters take out an equally pointed assault terminator squad,
So everyones up to speed here's the maths 10 assault terminators will be 450 points (using big numbers for easy maths) that's 18 HG.
You strike at the same time (we'll assume you magically got into combat with no one charging)
Terminators: 20 attacks 10 Hits 8.33 dead HG.
HG: 54 attacks 27 hits 18 wounds 6 dead HG
HG lose combat but will win the war of attrition as the Terminators are down to 4 guys.
Round 2 assuming HG run away and the Teinators charge them:
Termmies: 12 attacks 6 hits 5 more dead.
HG: 30 attacks 15 hits 10 wounds 3 TDAs dead down to 1 Terminator...
Last round Terminators: 2 attacks 1 hit 1 dead.
HG: 15 attacks 7.5 hits 5 wounds last termmie is over killed. Still 4 HG left.
That's ignoring shooting (which HG do and Terminators don't) against any other type of terminator the story is worse for the Terminator. At 25 points HG become a top tier combat unit.
Thanks for working that out.
I got one question...
Can I use Marneus as a counts as leader.
I'll use the UM rules, I just don't fancy painting that much blue and gold.
No there is not,that is mk5 the only true mk6 is on space Wolves.
A true mk6 has 3 upper cables one going down,it looks like the letter Y
The Mk5 have the 4 ribber cables with the car speaker in his chest
I can't fathom how people thought Hammernators were going to get cheaper. 2+sv's became a lot more survivable in CC in general (so the value of that save has increased), 3+ invuls matter more against shooting now that 4+ cover isn't the norm (and thus is still super valuable), and normal terminators don't bring enough shooting to offset the survivability advantage. Yeah, CC isn't as potent in general as it previously was, but the Hammernators going down in cost just realistically wasn't going to happen, especially not with how the CSM and DA books treated terminators.
Deadshot wrote: Personally I don't like the new MkVII models. They looks different. Longer "noses", larger pads, rounder chests. Maybe its just the pic but they look like a step back from the one on sale now.
Any particular models? Are you meaning the Character models, or are you basing this on the new Stern/Van kits, or are you talking about the Tac kit?
If it is the Tac box then I think you be cray-z, as for the others I am not really seeing the "longer noses" or what have you. Could you link the pic you think reflects this the most?
Yea, I'm not seeing whatever it is he's talking about either. I even grabbed some of my Tactical bits and DV/AoBR starter marines to compare.
The picture of the sternguard with the combi-grav, or the second vanguard on the left of the box front have helmets in a style I've not seen before. Sort of long, stretched, and frowny. I'm not a big fan of them. I'm not sure if these are the ones he means, but I know all of those are getting a one way trip to my bitz box...
Those are Mk IV "Maximus" helmets. Forge World has been producing them for a long time. I think there's one on the current Black Templar upgrade sprue.
Eisenhorn wrote: No there is not,that is mk5 the only true mk6 is on space Wolves. A true mk6 has 3 upper cables one going down,it looks like the letter Y The Mk5 have the 4 ribber cables with the car speaker in his chest
Okay. I understand. Which one of the new guys do you see wearing the letter "Y"?
Vaktathi wrote: I can't fathom how people thought Hammernators were going to get cheaper. 2+sv's became a lot more survivable in CC in general (so the value of that save has increased), 3+ invuls matter more against shooting now that 4+ cover isn't the norm (and thus is still super valuable), and normal terminators don't bring enough shooting to offset the survivability advantage. Yeah, CC isn't as potent in general as it previously was, but the Hammernators going down in cost just realistically wasn't going to happen, especially not with how the CSM and DA books treated terminators.
I don't think hammernators need a price increase, They were OK for their points and still need a 250+pt land raider to really field. Any casualties taken really hurt the unit's combat capability. I ran them religiously in 5th, but I have a harder and harder time working them into my lists these days.
True, luckily barely anyone takes termies anymore, more so now that hammernators are gonna be 5 points more...
That's not really a lucky thing. One of the most iconic fluffy units of space marines, and nobody takes them because there an expensive detriment and point sink in your army. They should have taken the opportunity to nerf plasma equivilents to be ap 3 also, like they did power weapons. It really is a shame because they really are a drag now. 450 points for 10 thunder hammer termies? With as many things as there are that kill them, 30 points should have been what they were reduced to. But now its too late, and yet another edition will go by with them being garbage.
Breotan wrote: Those are Mk IV "Maximus" helmets. Forge World has been producing them for a long time. I think there's one on the current Black Templar upgrade sprue.
However the FW ones look much nicer than the ones GW have done in plastic, IMHO.
gmaleron wrote: Just to give you guys a little preview of the rough draft I have created for the army I plan to build! I was able to get a great deal for some Crisis Suits that I had and was able to purchase x5 Drop Pods and x2 Stormtalons for them and this is what I am planning so let me know what you think! :
Spoiler:
Raven Guard Drop-Pod Assault Group Raptor
Chapter Tactic:
-Imperial Fists
HQ:
-Shadow Captain Aleron (Pedro Kantor)
ELITE:
-x10 Sternguard (*Combat Squad*)
*w/ x1 or x2 Combi Melta
-Drop Pod
-x10 Sternguard (*Combat Squad*)
*w/ x1 or x2 Combi Melta
-Drop Pod
-x10 Sternguard (*Combat Squad*)
*w/ x1 or x2 Combi Melta
-Drop Pod
Now just to make sure, will x5 man Tac Squads be able to take Drop Pods like the Space Wolf Codex? Or will they have to be x10 man (looked on here could not find it). Also any word if Thunderfire Cannons will remain or be relentless? Thanks for helping a new Space Marine player out!
minimalist troops.
no thunder hammer termies in imperial fists
using crimson fist character to lead imperial fists army, allowed or not
2/10, would not purge xenos with.
seriously, why not paint your guys crimson fists. Same chapter tactics but your army represents them much better.
True, luckily barely anyone takes termies anymore, more so now that hammernators are gonna be 5 points more...
That's not really a lucky thing. One of the most iconic fluffy units of space marines, and nobody takes them because there an expensive detriment and point sink in your army. They should have taken the opportunity to nerf plasma equivilents to be ap 3 also, like they did power weapons. It really is a shame because they really are a drag now. 450 points for 10 thunder hammer termies? With as many things as there are that kill them, 30 points should have been what they were reduced to. But now its too late, and yet another edition will go by with them being garbage.
I'm still going to take a unit of Terminators. They've always done well in my games.
Deadshot wrote: Personally I don't like the new MkVII models. They looks different. Longer "noses", larger pads, rounder chests. Maybe its just the pic but they look like a step back from the one on sale now.
Any particular models? Are you meaning the Character models, or are you basing this on the new Stern/Van kits, or are you talking about the Tac kit?
If it is the Tac box then I think you be cray-z, as for the others I am not really seeing the "longer noses" or what have you. Could you link the pic you think reflects this the most?
Yea, I'm not seeing whatever it is he's talking about either. I even grabbed some of my Tactical bits and DV/AoBR starter marines to compare.
The Mk7 heads in particular on the Tac Squad. The nose piece looks too long compared to the current one and the shoulders look longer. Maybe its just the way the image is taken. The chest I'm refering to is the Mk6 which looks rounded and barrel-like. In fact the Mk6 marine in the Tac Squad pic looks very much like an older, 3rd ed or so model. Maybe not to that extent but certainly not as good in any way as modern kits.
The Sternguard look good except the Mk4 guy, which is because I dislike that particular version of Mk4 helmets with the long nose. I prefer the FW helmets is all.
Calgar allowing all your dudes to fail morale is huge. Wasn't expecting UM to retain the original CT. With that on top of being able to use one doctrine twice, and getting 3 Warlord Traits, he's going to be very good.
using crimson fist character to lead imperial fists army, allowed or not
wtwlf123 wrote: Calgar allowing all your dudes to fail morale is huge. Wasn't expecting UM to retain the original CT. With that on top of being able to use one doctrine twice, and getting 3 Warlord Traits, he's going to be very good.
using crimson fist character to lead imperial fists army, allowed or not
Don't CF and IF use the same combat tactics?
Calgar doesn't get three warlord traits, he rolls 3 times (rerolling doubles) and picks one of those.
but seeing a unit of power axe wielding nutters take out an equally pointed assault terminator squad,
So everyones up to speed here's the maths 10 assault terminators will be 450 points (using big numbers for easy maths) that's 18 HG.
You strike at the same time (we'll assume you magically got into combat with no one charging)
Terminators: 20 attacks 10 Hits 8.33 dead HG.
HG: 54 attacks 27 hits 18 wounds 6 dead HG
HG lose combat but will win the war of attrition as the Terminators are down to 4 guys.
Round 2 assuming HG run away and the Teinators charge them:
Termmies: 12 attacks 6 hits 5 more dead.
HG: 30 attacks 15 hits 10 wounds 3 TDAs dead down to 1 Terminator...
Last round Terminators: 2 attacks 1 hit 1 dead.
HG: 15 attacks 7.5 hits 5 wounds last termmie is over killed. Still 4 HG left.
That's ignoring shooting (which HG do and Terminators don't) against any other type of terminator the story is worse for the Terminator. At 25 points HG become a top tier combat unit.
Thanks for working that out.
I got one question...
Can I use Marneus as a counts as leader.
I'll use the UM rules, I just don't fancy painting that much blue and gold.
Vacuum math is so stupid, honestly who will take all axes on HG? It will mean going second against a whole string of opponents that aren't wearing 2+ armor. Honestly, with 3 attacks before charging I would consider a few power mauls. This way you have a shot against walkers and such.
Deadshot wrote: Personally I don't like the new MkVII models. They looks different. Longer "noses", larger pads, rounder chests. Maybe its just the pic but they look like a step back from the one on sale now.
Any particular models? Are you meaning the Character models, or are you basing this on the new Stern/Van kits, or are you talking about the Tac kit?
If it is the Tac box then I think you be cray-z, as for the others I am not really seeing the "longer noses" or what have you. Could you link the pic you think reflects this the most?
Yea, I'm not seeing whatever it is he's talking about either. I even grabbed some of my Tactical bits and DV/AoBR starter marines to compare.
The Mk7 heads in particular on the Tac Squad. The nose piece looks too long compared to the current one and the shoulders look longer. Maybe its just the way the image is taken. The chest I'm refering to is the Mk6 which looks rounded and barrel-like. In fact the Mk6 marine in the Tac Squad pic looks very much like an older, 3rd ed or so model. Maybe not to that extent but certainly not as good in any way as modern kits.
The Sternguard look good except the Mk4 guy, which is because I dislike that particular version of Mk4 helmets with the long nose. I prefer the FW helmets is all.
Mk6 pads always look longer because they lack that trim around the edges. As for any real differences I feel like your vision is much better then mine or your just being way too critical.
Vaktathi wrote: I can't fathom how people thought Hammernators were going to get cheaper. 2+sv's became a lot more survivable in CC in general (so the value of that save has increased), 3+ invuls matter more against shooting now that 4+ cover isn't the norm (and thus is still super valuable), and normal terminators don't bring enough shooting to offset the survivability advantage. Yeah, CC isn't as potent in general as it previously was, but the Hammernators going down in cost just realistically wasn't going to happen, especially not with how the CSM and DA books treated terminators.
Because whatever meelee lost in AP, shooting has made up for in spades in 6th. You have riptides now, tau are a lot more prevalent now that their flavor of the month. There are a lot more volume of fire armies, necron do it well. So they die more often to massed firepower. Some armies have such overwhelming units against armor 3 now (helldrakes) that they can afford to pack the rest of their list with say lascannons or meltas. And lets not forget, the armies that can carry a lot of 2+ saves now just got even MORE weapons to shoot at termies in the form of grav guns. Lets say 3 centurions shoot with grav guns at a squad of 10 TH/SS termies. 15 shots, 10 hits, 10 wounds. You dident read that wrong, 10 wounds because 2s needed to wound, and reroll failed wounds. Now lets make their saves. 3+. so right away you have lost 3 or 4 termies. Those centurions cost a bit over half that, but they too are vulnerable to ap 2 weapons, though with 5 toughness and 2 wounds each.
2+ saves have NEVER been more worthless then they are now. That's why the price hike in points is so stupid.
And the previous example with regular terminators with 5+ invun? 7 or 8 dead. That is just stupid and the reason nobody uses termies at 40, much less 45.
Hammernators did need a points increase. As at the sane points as LC terminators only a complete moron would take LC Terminators and few in their right mind would take shooty terminators. Hammernators are the best Terminators therefore they should be more points than other Terminators.
Should Terminators be 40 points base? Well that's a different argument but with Baledrakes and Vector strikes and VWBs around Terminators look good in this meta. But you're largely paying for CC prowess which has been greatly curtailed in this edition. Terminators where great in the last Edition this time they are more situational with HG looking a better bet. Next edition they may be more prevalent again. But to suggest a Terminator with TH+SS should be a point LESS than one with Power Weapon and combibolter is frankly ludicrous. Perhaps Teinators at 35 base (with Chaos ones being 26) would have suited this edition better. However personally I think it would have made Terminators too good. Assault isn't great in this edition get over it.
Vacuum math is so stupid, honestly who will take all axes on HG? It will mean going second against a whole string of opponents that aren't wearing 2+ armor. Honestly, with 3 attacks before charging I would consider a few power mauls. This way you have a shot against walkers and such.
Agreed, I think mauls are probably the best weapon for them, maybe give one guy a hammer for some big stuff, but a squad of these guys with a chappy will mow through horde. I'm sure the maul outperforms the sword in all cases except AP3 (even then a squad with a chappy will still kill ~5 marines a turn on the charge).
wtwlf123 wrote: Calgar allowing all your dudes to fail morale is huge. Wasn't expecting UM to retain the original CT. With that on top of being able to use one doctrine twice, and getting 3 Warlord Traits, he's going to be very good.
using crimson fist character to lead imperial fists army, allowed or not
Don't CF and IF use the same combat tactics?
Calgar doesn't get three warlord traits, he rolls 3 times (rerolling doubles) and picks one of those.
And yes, CF and IF have the same trait it seems.
Oh okay cool, thanks for clarifying. Much more reasonable that way.
Honestly, I think LotD will be the dark horse of this edition. I wish I had painted all 27 of my models before this codex came out so I wouldn't have to face FotM cries.
If you don't deal with them, they are going to murder your infantry or worse. It's not the fact they will run you down, whatever they face in cc, will just die. They have enough attacks and wounds to take out anything.
And what if the infantry they want to butcher simply runs away? It's not like they can really catch up...
Then those infantry just ran off of an objective and I win
Chapter Master Pedro Kantor:
- +1 Attack
- Oath of Rynn: If Chapter Master Kantor is your Warlord all models in Crimson Fist detachments have the Preferred Enemy (Orks) Special Rule. Furthermore, all such models within 12" of Kantor have +1 Attack while he lives. This bonus does not affector Kantor, and is not cimulative with the similar bonuse that the Chapter Banner gives.
so does this mean that if i take 2 detachments, say Crimson Fists and UltraMarines, that only the CrimsonFist guys would benefit from Pedro's attack bubble? thats how it reads to me.
SickSix wrote: Honestly, I think LotD will be the dark horse of this edition. I wish I had painted all 27 of my models before this codex came out so I wouldn't have to face FotM cries.
Depends on their point cost and weapon load outs. They were never bad, they just couldn't capitalise on their strengths for their cost.
First I agree with you that hammer terminators should be the most points, as they are the best, and also that ALL terminators should have had a points drop across the board. But to come out and say assault isn't great this edition get over it is dumb. You are completely invalidating 2 or 3 armies default best playstyle, and don't think that the age of all shooting or go home weakens the game. It does. Its a much less interesting game if you don't have to build your lists to fight that one guy who brings a swamp ya army, because nobody plays it anymore. If gw told all the nid and ork fans to "get over it" they would just be alienating even more of their fanbase.
First I agree with you that hammer terminators should be the most points, as they are the best, and also that ALL terminators should have had a points drop across the board. But to come out and say assault isn't great this edition get over it is dumb. You are completely invalidating 2 or 3 armies default best playstyle, and don't think that the age of all shooting or go home weakens the game. It does. Its a much less interesting game if you don't have to build your lists to fight that one guy who brings a swamp ya army, because nobody plays it anymore. If gw told all the nid and ork fans to "get over it" they would just be alienating even more of their fanbase.
Because whatever meelee lost in AP, shooting has made up for in spades in 6th. You have riptides now, tau are a lot more prevalent now that their flavor of the month. There are a lot more volume of fire armies, necron do it well.
If you could deal with Mech IG in 5th, i'm not seeing what's so new here. The current Necron book had the same firepower it did in 5th as it does now. Tau aren't throwing out any more firepower than many armies in 5E did, they're just a bit different in functionality. I mean, if you could deal with 15+ IG tanks all sporting multishot S5/6 guns and dozens of melta/plasma weapons on top of ordnance plates and vendetta lascannon spam, I'm not seeing anything in 5E that makes that 2+ save any worse than that. The only big thing is that since they made vehicles so hilariously easy to kill people moved more to Plasma instead of Melta.
Aside from that, it's not like armies weren't putting out similar firepower last edition.
Some armies have such overwhelming units against armor 3 now (helldrakes) that they can afford to pack the rest of their list with say lascannons or meltas.
In this case, the 3 Heldrakes are the primary killing power of the opposing army, meaning they aren't doing much to your termi's, thus they *must* devote their heavier weapons to the termis, where they're often least effective in terms of the return on their investment. It's also not like people weren't putting lots of ap2 weapons/high RoF weapons at termi's in previous editions either.
And lets not forget, the armies that can carry a lot of 2+ saves now just got even MORE weapons to shoot at termies in the form of grav guns. Lets say 3 centurions shoot with grav guns at a squad of 10 TH/SS termies. 15 shots, 10 hits, 10 wounds. You dident read that wrong, 10 wounds because 2s needed to wound, and reroll failed wounds. Now lets make their saves. 3+. so right away you have lost 3 or 4 termies. Those centurions cost a bit over half that, but they too are vulnerable to ap 2 weapons, though with 5 toughness and 2 wounds each.
We're also talking about a brand new unit here we haven't seen finalized stuff on and that looks to be a very specialized anti-terminator unit. To get the same results out of say, Vendettas, you'd need at least 5 of them, 650pts worth of drastically undercosted over-armed flyer. Not feeling too bad for the Hammernators there.
It won't matter if I hit last... whatever I hit back is dead or severely mauled.
Well that's your call, except when you face guard blobs, poison gaunts, gargoyles, orks, MC's, walkers and even regular meq a power maul will do the real mauling Mauls are better at all flavor of necrons as well! Heck, come to think of it, axes seem like the second best option to me. Don't forget with Tigerius you have a crazy good shot at getting misfortune or enfeeble making the mauls better again.
I have Tactical Squad Question:
Are they like the current C: SM ot Are they a Copy Past of the C: DA
Basicaly will the Sarge have access to Lighting Claws, and Thunder Hammers due to having access to Melee Weapons or will they just have Access to Power Fist and Power Weapon.
I have seen both here
It won't matter if I hit last... whatever I hit back is dead or severely mauled.
Well that's your call, except when you face guard blobs, poison gaunts, gargoyles, orks, MC's, walkers and even regular meq a power maul will do the real mauling Mauls are better at all flavor of necrons as well! Heck, come to think of it, axes seem like the second best option to me. Don't forget with Tigerius you have a crazy good shot at getting misfortune or enfeeble making the mauls better again.
I'm currently heading into a new meta so it may not be the best thing, but my old meta was nothing but MEQ and Eldar/DE.
Spartan089 wrote: Is it me or are those new tacticals? the legs seem more upright.
I believe new tac. Has been confirned
Thats kinda BS considering Chaos is still stuck with the same dwarfy legged squads...
Who uses regular csm?
Any of the non-4 god specific chaos legions I suppose. I play Iron warriors and half my legion is still unassembled because I dont know how to modify the legs without totally scewing it up.
Holy jumping catfish batman! The new wordbearer models are incredible!
Guess i must have lost track of the links in the confusion, the ones i tried just showed a sad-looking chinese kid in some kind of native outfit.
In all this discussion about what looks good in the rules and what does not I missed something. The release date is the 31st of August or is that the IBook release? I have not seen anyting on the Ibook release for this either. My guess it is somewhere in the post but I grow dizzy trying to follow some of the communication
I love how you have 6-7 different versions of power armor over the course of the hobby but the only change game-wise has been aesthetic. I think 3rd ed was Mark 2 or 3 and the new space Marines are on 7 or 8. Yet, the armor has not gotten better in anyway. Still a 3+, still a T4, and they aren't moving any faster. So what was the reason for the changes in armor? Did the Imperium just want to keep up with the latest fashions in power armor?
Yeah, I get that maybe they are bit more comfortable and easier to produce. But after all of these modification wouldn't they offer more protection? Or at least make the SM tougher or faster?
I know in the US Marines we pronounced MK as 'Mark' instead of spelling out M K. Like the MK-19 we would say 'Mark nineteen'. If that isn't the same over the pond then I can see where the confusion is as I spelled it out as I said it and not how it should be written, a big problem I have. I meant MK-2 through MK-8 armor.
It won't matter if I hit last... whatever I hit back is dead or severely mauled.
Well that's your call, except when you face guard blobs, poison gaunts, gargoyles, orks, MC's, walkers and even regular meq a power maul will do the real mauling Mauls are better at all flavor of necrons as well! Heck, come to think of it, axes seem like the second best option to me. Don't forget with Tigerius you have a crazy good shot at getting misfortune or enfeeble making the mauls better again.
I'm currently heading into a new meta so it may not be the best thing, but my old meta was nothing but MEQ and Eldar/DE.
I'm going with xp atm.
Fair enough, as you should. I would suggest either modifying your own halberd type weapon to use as both, or to try magnets, either way it sounds like more of a fluffy build anyway.
Mk 1 Thunder Armour wasn't actually power armour, as it was only powered in the chest and arms and wasn't fully enclosed.
Mk 2 Crusade Armour was the first full Power Armour featuring void capability and powered legs.
Mk 3 Iron pattern was an upgrade to Mk2 that moved more of the armouring to the front and was ideal for frontal assaults and "Space Hulk" style arenas like Zone Mortalis.
Mk 4 Maximus was the second true set of Power Armour as 3 was just a modification and 1 wasn't really PA. It featured a completely redesigned helmet with advanced autosenses and nifties, as well as being the first suit to have a seperate headpiece that could turn. The Crusade helmet locked into set postion but allowed turning of the head inside the helmet. It also placed the cabling on the legs inside rather than outside like the Mk2
Mk 5 Heresy was really just any old bits of other suits cobbled together and had extra armour made from subpar matierials like plasteel attached to protect vs the Traitor's Bolter rounds. The drawback was its increased weight put strain on the systems and either overheated badly or worked at less than peak.
Mk 6 Corvus was pioneered by Raven Guard as full replacement for Mk4, featuring an elongated nose containing incredibly advanced autosenses and nifties, better than Mk4 anyway. It was also rumoured to be lighter and queiter than other suits due to RG testing
Mk 7 Aquila is the 4th "true" armour, and carries many designs from older Marks of armour, including the autosenses suite from Corvus, the helmet shape of Heresy, and various other things and is quite common.
Mk8 rrant armour is a new set that's really only in the beta testing phase. It features most prominently, a new breastplate with a collar. This prevents bullets ricochetting into the head as they could with Aquila, but needed a slightly modified helmet. IiRC it also has reinforced greaves and vambraces.
I can't fathom how people thought Hammernators were going to get cheaper. 2+sv's became a lot more survivable in CC in general (so the value of that save has increased), 3+ invuls matter more against shooting now that 4+ cover isn't the norm (and thus is still super valuable), and normal terminators don't bring enough shooting to offset the survivability advantage. Yeah, CC isn't as potent in general as it previously was, but the Hammernators going down in cost just realistically wasn't going to happen, especially not with how the CSM and DA books treated terminators.
Because whatever meelee lost in AP, shooting has made up for in spades in 6th. You have riptides now, tau are a lot more prevalent now that their flavor of the month. There are a lot more volume of fire armies, necron do it well. So they die more often to massed firepower. Some armies have such overwhelming units against armor 3 now (helldrakes) that they can afford to pack the rest of their list with say lascannons or meltas. And lets not forget, the armies that can carry a lot of 2+ saves now just got even MORE weapons to shoot at termies in the form of grav guns. Lets say 3 centurions shoot with grav guns at a squad of 10 TH/SS termies. 15 shots, 10 hits, 10 wounds. You dident read that wrong, 10 wounds because 2s needed to wound, and reroll failed wounds. Now lets make their saves. 3+. so right away you have lost 3 or 4 termies. Those centurions cost a bit over half that, but they too are vulnerable to ap 2 weapons, though with 5 toughness and 2 wounds each.
2+ saves have NEVER been more worthless then they are now. That's why the price hike in points is so stupid.
And the previous example with regular terminators with 5+ invun? 7 or 8 dead. That is just stupid and the reason nobody uses termies at 40, much less 45.
This!
Bottom line is terminators ought to cost less across the board with hammernators being the most expensive.
Also comparing DA terminators and using that as an excuse to further turn SM terminators into nearly unusable junk is not valid, at least DA terminators get to take combibolters and come with fancy rules...and STILL deathwing armies suck.
First I agree with you that hammer terminators should be the most points, as they are the best, and also that ALL terminators should have had a points drop across the board. But to come out and say assault isn't great this edition get over it is dumb. You are completely invalidating 2 or 3 armies default best playstyle, and don't think that the age of all shooting or go home weakens the game. It does. Its a much less interesting game if you don't have to build your lists to fight that one guy who brings a swamp ya army, because nobody plays it anymore. If gw told all the nid and ork fans to "get over it" they would just be alienating even more of their fanbase.
Yeah I think a 5 point across the board reduction in Terminators cost could have been a good thing. Though making assault elements less effective in the around armies makes assault armies more specialist. We're waiting on a Nid and Ork codex to redress the balance and I expect them to do so. This is a shooting edition from a rules perspective the last was not but the codexes made it a shooting edition. This has meant assault has taken a double whammy so far this edition and the shooty armies have been done first. Though Daemons have competitive assault builds, which shows hope for when Orks and Bids come.
Mk 6 Corvus was pioneered by Raven Guard as full replacement for Mk4, featuring an elongated nose containing incredibly advanced autosenses and nifties, better than Mk4 anyway. It was also rumoured to be lighter and queiter than other suits due to RG testing
Edit: I will say, that while the lexi's description says that Mk II and III had fixed helmets, the HH art and HH models by FW defy that description with clearly mobile/functioning head rotation.
I think the writers probably took the 5th mindset that Hammernators were too cheap for how they performed and raised prices, completely forgetting that the newer armies have enough AP2 and/or dakka to invalidate them.
Probably at some point one of the other SM codices (SW, BA, etc.) will realize this and adjust costs down 5 pts across the board, if not slightly more.
Another wonderful example of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing down at GWHQ.
I don't think they wanted to make TH/SS Terminators cheaper AND give them Fleet at the same time. Assault is so bad in 6th that they could've afforded to do it, but I think that was probably the mindset.
King Pariah wrote: It made me so happy to see SM lose to CSM. I can't wait to see the SM codex in whole!
I'm pretty sure that game was staged a bit.
The CSM player had Heldrakes and the SM player apparently didn't take any type of dedicated transport. It wasn't staged, just pure idiocy on the SM player's part...
wtwlf123 wrote: I don't think they wanted to make TH/SS Terminators cheaper AND give them Fleet at the same time. Assault is so bad in 6th that they could've afforded to do it, but I think that was probably the mindset.
As someone stated before in this thread, it likely comes down to the development team not seeing the weakness of assault units. This happens because unskilled players (developers are often bad at their own games, even in the video-game industry) are vastly more susceptible to assaults and therefore perceive it as stronger than it actually is, competitively speaking. As a result, we see continued nerfs to assault units and assault tactics.
It's a difficult problem to fix, since the all-or-nothing style of mechanics for assaults are really punishing when you can't counter it effectively (as competitive/optimized players are taught to do). So at the more casual end, assault units are sometimes too strong, but at the competitive end, they're much too weak (assuming you want to keep assaults as part of the game - which I certainly do).
King Pariah wrote: It made me so happy to see SM lose to CSM. I can't wait to see the SM codex in whole!
I'm pretty sure that game was staged a bit.
The CSM player had Heldrakes and the SM player apparently didn't take any type of dedicated transport. It wasn't staged, just pure idiocy on the SM player's part...
I thinkit was just one Heldrake and they didn't show each other their lists until it was time to play, a little late to decided you need to re-write everything.
Besides, there is a Land Raider Crusader in the big army picture. A Crusader squad shold have been rolling around in that!
I would love to get that Imperial Fist version of the codex, but the heck with paying twice what a regular codex costs. Guess I'll be getting the regular codex.
Also, if you look at the games and all the terrain available the game of 40k they play in the design studio is gonna be VERY different from what the standard gamer is going to be used to.
For example if I was taking a shooty tau list, but there were at least 5-6 pieces of LOS blocking terrain on the table(talking blocking LOS to land raiders), then it is going to be a much different opinion than for most of us who will have entire open areas of the board that are shooting galleries.
Also they tend to take units that they want, instead of min-maxing and/or optimizing
Valhalla130 wrote: I would love to get that Imperial Fist version of the codex, but the heck with paying twice what a regular codex costs. Guess I'll be getting the regular codex.
Get the regular book, find a good picture of the Imperial Fists online, make a dust jacket. Problem solved.
Heck I bet they'll have pictures of he LE codex covers on the website Saturday. You might be able to use one of those.
Very cool stuff so far. Im digging the Space Marines as far as what I can see lol. I loved that picture of the MegaNob Ork with dual powerklaws fighting what looked like an Emperors champion? Very cool, made me excited for Orks!
Mk 1 Thunder Armour wasn't actually power armour, as it was only powered in the chest and arms and wasn't fully enclosed.
Mk 2 Crusade Armour was the first full Power Armour featuring void capability and powered legs.
Mk 3 Iron pattern was an upgrade to Mk2 that moved more of the armouring to the front and was ideal for frontal assaults and "Space Hulk" style arenas like Zone Mortalis.
Mk 4 Maximus was the second true set of Power Armour as 3 was just a modification and 1 wasn't really PA. It featured a completely redesigned helmet with advanced autosenses and nifties, as well as being the first suit to have a seperate headpiece that could turn. The Crusade helmet locked into set postion but allowed turning of the head inside the helmet. It also placed the cabling on the legs inside rather than outside like the Mk2
Mk 5 Heresy was really just any old bits of other suits cobbled together and had extra armour made from subpar matierials like plasteel attached to protect vs the Traitor's Bolter rounds. The drawback was its increased weight put strain on the systems and either overheated badly or worked at less than peak.
Mk 6 Corvus was pioneered by Raven Guard as full replacement for Mk4, featuring an elongated nose containing incredibly advanced autosenses and nifties, better than Mk4 anyway. It was also rumoured to be lighter and queiter than other suits due to RG testing
Mk 7 Aquila is the 4th "true" armour, and carries many designs from older Marks of armour, including the autosenses suite from Corvus, the helmet shape of Heresy, and various other things and is quite common.
Mk8 rrant armour is a new set that's really only in the beta testing phase. It features most prominently, a new breastplate with a collar. This prevents bullets ricochetting into the head as they could with Aquila, but needed a slightly modified helmet. IiRC it also has reinforced greaves and vambraces.
I get that there were tweeks to the armor in the last 10,000(?) years, but you figured they'd get more effective as far as the game goes. For example, MK-2 and MK-8 both offer the same protection in the game, T4, 3+, and just a 6" movement. In 10,000 years they couldn't have made them a bit better? Say T5, S5 or 2+, or 5++? Or make them lighter so they could move 7" or 8" inches? All they really did was make the armor more confortable and better looking in 10,000 years. Because nothing else they did made them more effective in combat. That always bothered me. I'd like to think in 10,000 years mankind would invent armor that would fully stop small arms fire.
How would you have them go about doing it in game? Each box only has 1-2 pieces of non mark 7 armor so for whatever it would offer the person would have to spend a lot of money to get it.
Davespil have you read any of the 40k fluff? Their entire technological knowledge has stagnated in that 10,000 years. Technical knowledge is actually worse in 40,000 than 30,000, they see it more as religion than science.
Mk 1 Thunder Armour wasn't actually power armour, as it was only powered in the chest and arms and wasn't fully enclosed.
Mk 2 Crusade Armour was the first full Power Armour featuring void capability and powered legs.
Mk 3 Iron pattern was an upgrade to Mk2 that moved more of the armouring to the front and was ideal for frontal assaults and "Space Hulk" style arenas like Zone Mortalis.
Mk 4 Maximus was the second true set of Power Armour as 3 was just a modification and 1 wasn't really PA. It featured a completely redesigned helmet with advanced autosenses and nifties, as well as being the first suit to have a seperate headpiece that could turn. The Crusade helmet locked into set postion but allowed turning of the head inside the helmet. It also placed the cabling on the legs inside rather than outside like the Mk2
Mk 5 Heresy was really just any old bits of other suits cobbled together and had extra armour made from subpar matierials like plasteel attached to protect vs the Traitor's Bolter rounds. The drawback was its increased weight put strain on the systems and either overheated badly or worked at less than peak.
Mk 6 Corvus was pioneered by Raven Guard as full replacement for Mk4, featuring an elongated nose containing incredibly advanced autosenses and nifties, better than Mk4 anyway. It was also rumoured to be lighter and queiter than other suits due to RG testing
Mk 7 Aquila is the 4th "true" armour, and carries many designs from older Marks of armour, including the autosenses suite from Corvus, the helmet shape of Heresy, and various other things and is quite common.
Mk8 rrant armour is a new set that's really only in the beta testing phase. It features most prominently, a new breastplate with a collar. This prevents bullets ricochetting into the head as they could with Aquila, but needed a slightly modified helmet. IiRC it also has reinforced greaves and vambraces.
I get that there were tweeks to the armor in the last 10,000(?) years, but you figured they'd get more effective as far as the game goes. For example, MK-2 and MK-8 both offer the same protection in the game, T4, 3+, and just a 6" movement. In 10,000 years they couldn't have made them a bit better? Say T5, S5 or 2+, or 5++? Or make them lighter so they could move 7" or 8" inches? All they really did was make the armor more confortable and better looking in 10,000 years. Because nothing else they did made them more effective in combat. That always bothered me. I'd like to think in 10,000 years mankind would invent armor that would fully stop small arms fire.
ruleswise it would be mega pain in the backside, and also negate stuff like artificer armour if say mk8 gave you 2+sv etc and like mk whatever on a bike would give you T6 etc.
also whos to say in 10000 years the ammo types etc wont have improved. bolter shells are pretty nasty - pretty much like frag grenade bullets
FlingitNow wrote: Davespil have you read any of the 40k fluff? Their entire technological knowledge has stagnated in that 10,000 years. Technical knowledge is actually worse in 40,000 than 30,000, they see it more as religion than science.
Leth wrote: Also, if you look at the games and all the terrain available the game of 40k they play in the design studio is gonna be VERY different from what the standard gamer is going to be used to.
For example if I was taking a shooty tau list, but there were at least 5-6 pieces of LOS blocking terrain on the table(talking blocking LOS to land raiders), then it is going to be a much different opinion than for most of us who will have entire open areas of the board that are shooting galleries.
Also they tend to take units that they want, instead of min-maxing and/or optimizing
So essentially, you're saying it's people's own fault that assault units are awful, because they're playing the game in a way it wasn't designed to be played?
I agree entirely. Assault armies have no problems whatsoever in the group I game with, because our boards always have an absolute bare minimum of 25% terrain coverage, typically more. Even when some of the handful of folks who like to go full on to-the-death competitive on occasion have no qualms about bringing assault-heavy forces. One has even been known to *gasp* use plain old regular C:SM Assault Marines to great effect (aaaand cue the parade of self-branded Awesomest Players Ever claiming that the only way that's possible is if everyone they go up against is so awful at the game they'd play better after undergoing a lobotomy, because if said Awesomests can't make something a success, it obviously just isn't possible ).
Also, where's this idea that "the standard gamer" is a min-maxing munchkin who loves to play on Planet Bowlingball come from?
Davespil wrote: No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.
Erm, no, that's nonsense, the changes are much more than cosmetic in the fluff, the problem is that the 40KD6-based system isn't granular enough to represent those changes in gameplay, in the same way that both a Guard Veteran and a Space Marine are BS4 on the tabletop, despite the Marine being more competent with their training and equipment, because they're not better by a big enough margin to push them up to BS5.
Davespil wrote: No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.
Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.
What I am worried about now is that the devastator marine box might look out of place with the new models. Have they changed that much? Or will that kit even be around anymore?
Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.
Considering the technological dark age idea to be stupid doesn't make one arrogant or small minded. It just demonstrates an appreciation for human pragmatism that's been demonstrated throughout human history and accelerated with the scientific method.
The technological dark age and science being replaced with religious traditions to maintain and operate technology was pretty unique with Asimov first wrote about it in his Foundation short story series from 1942 to 1950. GW's lame ripoff of Asimov's ideas with added flying babies is less good.
Lots of people get into 40k and like Space Marines because they like sci-fi and become less enthused and certainly less interested in the background fiction once they discover it's not actually science fiction, but some sort of dystopian space fantasy with space knights, demonic forces, magic and a caricature of medieval Catholicism. i can totally get people not caring about the background fiction when they were expecting one thing and found it to be another upon closer inspection.
FlingitNow wrote: Davespil have you read any of the 40k fluff? Their entire technological knowledge has stagnated in that 10,000 years. Technical knowledge is actually worse in 40,000 than 30,000, they see it more as religion than science.
This! Nice to see someone else that "gets it". Also, people seem to be missing the fact that Hammenators are also very resilient to plasma, which has seen a large increase in use. I am not saying that Terminators as a whole don't need to be reevaluated. I just think that the storm shield is very good.
Davespil wrote: No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.
Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.
I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.
Davespil wrote: No. And that's the reason why I don't. In 10,000 years the only changes they've made were literally cosmetic.
Well if you read the fluff you might understand why... Complaining about the fluff with having no knowledge of it is just bafflingly arrogant and small minded. Reminds me of the creationist attitude.
I don't read the fluff because I have a military background and it sounds as if it was made up by a 12 year-old and written by a junior in highschool. If I was a creationist I would whole-heartedly embrace the dark age-religous stupidity explorered in the fluff. I just pointed out a fact that I found amusing.
So because you have a 'military background' you can't suspend disbelief but you can play with toy soldiers?
and 
to those two pics of the combined forces of Ultramarines, fists and that Salamanders sergeant vs the Ork. Credit where credit is due that art is brilliant. Plus the one fist has ein beard, a Empire beard from fantasy!
(aaaand cue the parade of self-branded Awesomest Players Ever claiming that the only way that's possible is if everyone they go up against is so awful at the game they'd play better after undergoing a lobotomy, because if said Awesomests can't make something a success, it obviously just isn't possible