Fezman wrote:
Does anyone else think the grav weapons sound a bit gimmicky rather than good? A gun that makes Terminators as fragile as a breadstick but turns Ork Boyz and Guardsmen into powerhouses...far too situational when we already have low-AP, high-STR gear. I just can't see, unless they have some ridiculous new traits yet to be revealed, why I'd choose them over plasma or melta.

My stance on the matter exactly.

The problems with BT might be a self-fulfilling prophecy on GW's part. They haven't updated the codex since '05. The only other 4th edition codex still kicking around is Orks, but that was released in early '08.

Obviously, when you leave one codex hanging out there for 8 years, while releasing books like SW, BA, GK, and DA, it's unlikely that BT keeps up, and especially unlikely that a newer player is going to pick up BT. Hopefully they at least give BT their own supplement or something to set them apart.

The other thing I'm really hoping for is some cost adjustment on Vanguard veterans, down to 25 pts for the base guy + jump pack, instead of requiring 30 pts for that. I'd always wanted to build a cool army with these guys, jumping straight into CC and causing all sorts of havoc (and with slightly increased average charge ranges they are even more deadly), but jeez, their cost is very prohibitive at present, especially considering they can be shot up like no one's business.

 Fezman wrote:
Does anyone else think the grav weapons sound a bit gimmicky rather than good? A gun that makes Terminators as fragile as a breadstick but turns Ork Boyz and Guardsmen into powerhouses...far too situational when we already have low-AP, high-STR gear. I just can't see, unless they have some ridiculous new traits yet to be revealed, why I'd choose them over plasma or melta.

As we have not seen rules or point costs, it's hard to say how good it will be. However, if I understood the rumour correctly, it makes a good armour detriment. I hate this sort of crap. Heavily armoured models in this game pay points for that protection, it is one thing to have some weapons that bypass that protection, and quite another to have weapons that turn that investment into a weakness.

Situational, certainly, but wounding Riptides/Wraithknights/TMC's and the like on a 3+ could be interesting.

I'm hoping/wishlisting it may have a grounding effect too for those pesky flying Daemon Princes and Hive tryants...!

Yes, that's why I say they may yet have some unique traits. To be honest when I saw the "grav" prefix my first thought was that they would have some effect on the target's movement. Maybe they will make the target treat all terrain as difficult?

 Ouze wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 unmercifulconker wrote:
Are BT really that unpopular? I seem to find a lot of people who love them.

If you look on the Internet, you can find anything you imagine. Yes, even that.

Truly inexplicable, if you ask me. I'm not really a marine player but BT seem ideal.

 Breotan wrote:
Yes, Ouze, some people like BT. I'm guessing not enough buy BT to make it worth GW's time and effort.

Kronk Kronkington loves the Black Templars. The Black Templars were Kronk Kronkington's starter army and he can drop down a fully painted 10k Apoc army (although it's all packed for the big move right now).

Kronk Kronkington has his credit card standing by for the LE Black Templar codex and the LE Black Templar Supplemental (if there is one) and whatever new Black Templar vehicle, character, whatever they make.

Go, go Sons of Dorn!

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 ace101 wrote:
Does anyone have rumors about how Chapter tactics work with generic characters? Will it be similar to the 4th edition ones or predefined like 5th? I'm very interested, as to the replicability of Blood Ravens, BLUUD REHVENS!!!

You want lots of librarians and to steal things from other chapters?

More along the lines of divination and infiltrate/counter attack. Divination definately is integral to how the Blood Ravens operate, as to predict the enemy movements and act accordingly (RTS style ala DoW).

 kronk wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 unmercifulconker wrote:
Are BT really that unpopular? I seem to find a lot of people who love them.

If you look on the Internet, you can find anything you imagine. Yes, even that.

Truly inexplicable, if you ask me. I'm not really a marine player but BT seem ideal.

 Breotan wrote:
Yes, Ouze, some people like BT. I'm guessing not enough buy BT to make it worth GW's time and effort.

Kronk Kronkington loves the Black Templars. The Black Templars were Kronk Kronkington's starter army and he can drop down a fully painted 10k Apoc army (although it's all packed for the big move right now).

Kronk Kronkington has his credit card standing by for the LE Black Templar codex and the LE Black Templar Supplemental (if there is one) and whatever new Black Templar vehicle, character, whatever they make.

Go, go Sons of Dorn!

May the eternal crusaders march forever foward against the enemies of man, may they smite them with rightoeus fury, may their steel and faith drive them through the darkest of times, to emerge from the pit as a shining beacon of light, to which all men will rally to. They shall deliver the Emperors message to all. FOR DORN AND THE EMPEROR!

Beat that any other chapter, no one tries harder than the Templars, have at it.

Fiiine, hmmm something on topic, why dont GW do LE covers like this for all armies, such as guardians of the covenant, tzeentch, emperors children. Pretty sure more people would go for them.

 unmercifulconker wrote:



Beat that any other chapter, no one tries harder than the Templars, have at it.

*cough* Ophidium Gulf *cough*

Templars beaten!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 unmercifulconker wrote:
Fiiine, hmmm something on topic, why dont GW do LE covers like this for all armies, such as guardians of the covenant, tzeentch, emperors children. Pretty sure more people would go for them.

Assuming they will do it for Space Marines you mean? Hard to extrapolate a trend from something that hasn't happened yet

 Zweischneid wrote:

 unmercifulconker wrote:



Beat that any other chapter, no one tries harder than the Templars, have at it.

*cough* Ophidium Gulf *cough*

Templars beaten!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 unmercifulconker wrote:
Fiiine, hmmm something on topic, why dont GW do LE covers like this for all armies, such as guardians of the covenant, tzeentch, emperors children. Pretty sure more people would go for them.

Assuming they will do it for Space Marines you mean? Hard to extrapolate a trend from something that hasn't happened yet

Damn thats a cool story.

Oh yeah assuming these rumours are correct of course.



Huh, has anyone seen these yet, they are sketches of the new armour from gamesday. http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/september-white-dwarf-cover-and-old.html

edit: Duuuuh silly me, its old concept.

I would have bought a LE Chaos codex if it had an Iron Warrior cover. DA's are the only other "Faction" to have an equal place in my heart and they have their own book so that wasn't needed

But yeah, they missed the boat on an IW, WB, AL, and NL covers for the Chaos book when it released.

Prediction / Doomsaying mode on.

Following GW's track record, we'll have something like:

Terminators are now very expensive points wise, probably matching Deathwing, without their extra rules.

Land Raiders discouraged. (Points, rules, whatever)
Storm Ravens encouraged. (Cheaper points)

Dreadmarines being encouraged to be used as the replacement for Terminators in most lists.

Storm Talons increased in points cost, more to the White Dwarf article again.

The new 'hot' unit will probably be Vanguard Veterans 'Heroic Intervention'-ing out of a Storm Raven.

Prediction mode off.

Yeup, no faith in GW anymore whatsoever...

 BryllCream wrote:
There is nothing in that post that I do not like.

Except the new, weird terminator-ish suit. That just sounds like Oblits/Mutilators BUT FOR SPEHSS MEHRENS. Are C:CSM not allowed anything unique??

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
There is nothing in that post that I do not like.

Except the new, weird terminator-ish suit. That just sounds like Oblits/Mutilators BUT FOR SPEHSS MEHRENS. Are C:CSM not allowed anything unique??

C:CSM players are only allowed to cry when Codex: Space Marines gets a flyer that can vector strike a transport and then burn what's inside with a S6 AP3 turret + torrent flamer.

And if the suits come with one of every good weapon in the game.

please note, this a literal copypasta off of facebook, apparently an american 40k podcast "40kradio" is responsible for this, so all credit goesto them, and the hapless soul i copied this off of (hes a friend, im sure he wont mind =p


"Centurions:
The guys are a heavy support choice. They're a marine cased in heavy armor with powerfist with lascannons under slung on one pic and heavy bolters on the other. Think of a heavier terminator armor that a marine straps into. I think this is where Chaos Oblits came from. They look to be on 40mm and I'm really starting to dig these models.

Plastic Chaplain:
Like other plastic HQ's that have come out. He is armed with a Crozius and bolt pistol. He has ornate armor and he is in a dynamic pose.

Plastic Librarian:
Same as above regarding previous HQ releases. He is helmetless and he's armed with a staff. He also has a wicked cherub flying off his pack pack. I really like this model.

The Hunter:
I believe this will be anti-air rhino. Its a cross between Vindicator Heavy Armor and a whirlwind style weapon mounted on the back. It comes with two cannons that have three barrels.

Vanguard Plastic:
I saw two separate pics one armed with TH/SS and one with a pair of Lighting claws, finally. Same Marine bodies just with some new iconography to freshen up the models.

From what I have seen so far the Marine release is going to be huge for GW. Sorry about no pics but I promised."

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
There is nothing in that post that I do not like.

Except the new, weird terminator-ish suit. That just sounds like Oblits/Mutilators BUT FOR SPEHSS MEHRENS. Are C:CSM not allowed anything unique??

EXACTLY like Obliterators/Mutilators, except:
-It's bigger,
-It doesn't get to swap weapon options around every turn,
-It doesn't only use energy based weapons,
-It's a frikkin' exosuit of some kind strapped to the armor of a Marine, not a mutant creature who absorbs weapons into it's body.

Seriously, it's not THAT close.

That sounds freaking awesome. It will be interesting to see how they did the centurions. Really like the concept, however it will be interesting to see the level of encasement they go for, as well as positioning.

I think it would be cool to see a Gears of War Style Mech, however a smaller strap in armor would also be pretty cool, and it sounds like that is what it is.

"Loyalist obliterator". Hate it.

Do we suspect multiple waves of releases for SM this year or should it be an all out release in September?

 Zweischneid wrote:

 unmercifulconker wrote:
Fiiine, hmmm something on topic, why dont GW do LE covers like this for all armies, such as guardians of the covenant, tzeentch, emperors children. Pretty sure more people would go for them.

Assuming they will do it for Space Marines you mean? Hard to extrapolate a trend from something that hasn't happened yet

They did this exact thing with the Chaos Daemons (LE Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle, and Tzeentch). Maybe that's where/when they first had the idea. Sucks that they missed the boat for C: CSM. Sounds cools for C: SM, though.

LegioX217 wrote:
Do we suspect multiple waves of releases for SM this year or should it be an all out release in September?

GW doesn't do wave releases anymore.

ClockworkZion wrote:

LegioX217 wrote:
Do we suspect multiple waves of releases for SM this year or should it be an all out release in September?

GW doesn't do wave releases anymore.

Okay thanks. I was wondering because I saw there were land speeders and other things on the "leaked release schedule" and haven't heard anything else about them yet.

LegioX217 wrote:
Okay thanks. I was wondering because I saw there were land speeders and other things on the "leaked release schedule" and haven't heard anything else about them yet.

That schedule is a fake.

That "release leak" has been debunked rather spectacularly at this point.

I'm trusting these pre-release rumors more than I have in a while. Best Pone usually seems to be on target, and his and these new rumors are jibing with Hasting's rumors from a while back.

Everyone Listen to this man

 Compel wrote:
Prediction / Doomsaying mode on.

Following GW's track record, we'll have something like:

Terminators are now very expensive points wise, probably matching Deathwing, without their extra rules.

Land Raiders discouraged. (Points, rules, whatever)
Storm Ravens encouraged. (Cheaper points)

Dreadmarines being encouraged to be used as the replacement for Terminators in most lists.

Storm Talons increased in points cost, more to the White Dwarf article again.

The new 'hot' unit will probably be Vanguard Veterans 'Heroic Intervention'-ing out of a Storm Raven.

Prediction mode off.

Yeup, no faith in GW anymore whatsoever...

When I talk About Knowing GWs game… This is what I’m talking about. Read his prediction and see it become the truth.
Push the models that need to sell, fudge the models that have more than paid for themselves, when you buy an all whatever army this codex allows… and then it is null and void in 7th… you were warned.
I’m not even Anti-GW. I still buy a box set every year or Bits (when it was ok)
But when it comes to buying the latest greatest army variant, keeping up with the newest toy, or getting the newest Wining game piece. I refuse.
Compel +1 and you know your GW business model quite well. Hats off.

 Compel wrote:
Prediction / Doomsaying mode on.

Following GW's track record, we'll have something like:

Terminators are now very expensive points wise, probably matching Deathwing, without their extra rules.

Land Raiders discouraged. (Points, rules, whatever)
Storm Ravens encouraged. (Cheaper points)

Dreadmarines being encouraged to be used as the replacement for Terminators in most lists.

Storm Talons increased in points cost, more to the White Dwarf article again.

The new 'hot' unit will probably be Vanguard Veterans 'Heroic Intervention'-ing out of a Storm Raven.

Prediction mode off.

Yeup, no faith in GW anymore whatsoever...

Why do you do this? What does this accomplish at all? You know what you could do instead of this? Wait 30 days and see. If things turn out lousy, then good for you. You get a gold star, a cookie, or what have you. Until then, this is just baseless whining.

Also if you have a generalist collection instead of a specialized collection then you handle the edition changes with much less purchases being required.

For example for my space marines I have a decent sized motor pool, a couple of every heavy weapon, a bunch of veterans of different stripes and a bunch of different HQs which will be magnetized for different configurations. When the new codex comes out I am looking at MAYBE 200 worth of additions(including codex), depending on how expensive the new armor guys are(if they even look good).

But then again I like to have a large diversity of stuff I can bring to the field instead of one uber build that never lasts more than a few codexes much less an edition.

It also follows that things that become good wont even get a new kit. Look at warp spiders, guardians, wave serpents, and a bunch of other things from codex eldar that are good but without a new kit? Tau there was nothing mandatory in their new models to make a good list, are riptides good? damn right but are not mandatory.

 Compel wrote:

Land Raiders discouraged. (Points, rules, whatever)
Storm Ravens encouraged. (Cheaper points)

I agree about the Storm Raven, but as for the Land Raider, I think they'll try just as hard to encourage use of that. It's an expensive kit, only £5 less than the Storm Raven and thus in the interests of GW to shift as many as possible, and I reckon its status as an assault vehicle will be made attractive in this Codex as a means to get the new type of CC-focused armour into combat.

 protomane0 wrote:
please note, this a literal copypasta off of facebook, apparently an american 40k podcast "40kradio" is responsible for this, so all credit goesto them, and the hapless soul i copied this off of (hes a friend, im sure he wont mind =p


"Centurions:
The guys are a heavy support choice. They're a marine cased in heavy armor with powerfist with lascannons under slung on one pic and heavy bolters on the other. Think of a heavier terminator armor that a marine straps into. I think this is where Chaos Oblits came from. They look to be on 40mm and I'm really starting to dig these models.

Plastic Chaplain:
Like other plastic HQ's that have come out. He is armed with a Crozius and bolt pistol. He has ornate armor and he is in a dynamic pose.

Plastic Librarian:
Same as above regarding previous HQ releases. He is helmetless and he's armed with a staff. He also has a wicked cherub flying off his pack pack. I really like this model.

The Hunter:
I believe this will be anti-air rhino. Its a cross between Vindicator Heavy Armor and a whirlwind style weapon mounted on the back. It comes with two cannons that have three barrels.

Vanguard Plastic:
I saw two separate pics one armed with TH/SS and one with a pair of Lighting claws, finally. Same Marine bodies just with some new iconography to freshen up the models.

From what I have seen so far the Marine release is going to be huge for GW. Sorry about no pics but I promised."

Heavy support: Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwind, Land Raiders, thunderfire cannon, devastators, and on top of that a 'hunter' and 'centurions' ? Seems a bit crowded.....

I've been thinking about grav weapons and I've finally worked out why they are needed. We have a plethora of high toughness models with good to great saves, however Space Marines don't have a huge amount of poisoned weapons or other weapons for non special ICs that wound on 2+/3+ etc., hence grav weapons filling that gap. I'm betting they are assault weapons meaning they bridge the gap between poisoned and heavy weapons.

I just want to see my Thunderfire Cannon get the ability to be bought in a unit of 1 - 3.

That would be the bane of my enemies.

 protomane0 wrote:
please note, this a literal copypasta off of facebook, apparently an american 40k podcast "40kradio" is responsible for this, so all credit goesto them, and the hapless soul i copied this off of (hes a friend, im sure he wont mind =p


"Centurions:
The guys are a heavy support choice. They're a marine cased in heavy armor with powerfist with lascannons under slung on one pic and heavy bolters on the other. Think of a heavier terminator armor that a marine straps into. I think this is where Chaos Oblits came from. They look to be on 40mm and I'm really starting to dig these models.

Plastic Chaplain:
Like other plastic HQ's that have come out. He is armed with a Crozius and bolt pistol. He has ornate armor and he is in a dynamic pose.

Plastic Librarian:
Same as above regarding previous HQ releases. He is helmetless and he's armed with a staff. He also has a wicked cherub flying off his pack pack. I really like this model.

The Hunter:
I believe this will be anti-air rhino. Its a cross between Vindicator Heavy Armor and a whirlwind style weapon mounted on the back. It comes with two cannons that have three barrels.

Vanguard Plastic:
I saw two separate pics one armed with TH/SS and one with a pair of Lighting claws, finally. Same Marine bodies just with some new iconography to freshen up the models.

From what I have seen so far the Marine release is going to be huge for GW. Sorry about no pics but I promised."

Wow hope that's not that accurate or at least not the end of it, it would be better if the vets have different weapons in the box than thermies, and I'd have hoped the mini dreads would be more specialised, of rather have two heavy bolter or lascannons than one of each.

Looky Likey wrote:
I've been thinking about grav weapons and I've finally worked out why they are needed. We have a plethora of high toughness models with good to great saves, however Space Marines don't have a huge amount of poisoned weapons or other weapons for non special ICs that wound on 2+/3+ etc., hence grav weapons filling that gap. I'm betting they are assault weapons meaning they bridge the gap between poisoned and heavy weapons.

Sounds like that is their likely purpose, and they could probably reliably hurt something like a Riptide or a Wraithknight (depending on if grav guns allow saves). But if they are put alongside plasma etc as 1 per squad weapons (2 if you take the pistol) it still seems like you'd be better off taking Sternguard and forcing saves on the big monsters. Still willing to be pleasantly surprised by them though.

 FarseerAndyMan wrote:
I just want to see my Thunderfire Cannon get the ability to be bought in a unit of 1 - 3.

That would be the bane of my enemies.

I want units that are actually usable in other then pure fluff gaming.

Anyone want to bet that the new codex will be the same horse manure of unused units that the current one is?
Overpriced vanguards that nobody ever uses, legion of the damned never, ever seen in competitive play (hell, I havent even seen those minis in fun fluff gaming due to their insane overpriced point costs) and so on and so on.
I cant even remember the last time I actually saw a chaplain leading an army for example.

It would be fun to actually get more units that are equally viable in competitive gaming then the usual thing where tacs are taken only because you must have 2 troops and the rest being some sort of 1-2 unit spam.
Lets hope the new SM wont become like the dark eldar where only one effective build is ever seen in tourneys.

The new beefed up armour miniatures/units sounds like a fun thing but it will probably only become just another weak gimmick like the dark angel shield-and-mace terminator squad, looks awesome, sounds fun but nobody takes them since they are not the slightest bit effective.

 FarseerAndyMan wrote:
I just want to see my Thunderfire Cannon get the ability to be bought in a unit of 1 - 3.

That would be the bane of my enemies.

9 Thunderfire Cannons makes me just a little bit randy, not gonna lie.

 Fezman wrote:
Sounds like that is their likely purpose, and they could probably reliably hurt something like a Riptide or a Wraithknight (depending on if grav guns allow saves). But if they are put alongside plasma etc as 1 per squad weapons (2 if you take the pistol) it still seems like you'd be better off taking Sternguard and forcing saves on the big monsters. Still willing to be pleasantly surprised by them though.

I think you'll be able to take multiple grav guns in a veteran squad, possibly forcibly paired up with a boarding shield ala Forgeworld. The new plastic vets, I'm assuming its one combined set for Sternguard and Vanguard, make me think the easiest place to add in the grav guns is that box set.

Vanguard will be the hotness because they get a new kit. Sternguard will probably be nerfed somehow, I know it makes no sense but GW has a proven history of doing this as described by the other posters.

Thunderfire Cannons will probably take a 50% points increase.

They will nerf what has been popular and make the new kits 'compulsory'.

Either way I am pumped about the stern/vanguard combo box. If it is the quality of the DC box, money will flow.

I doubt you will be able to take TFC in units of 1-3... GW seems to be getting away from the whole "spam the most powerful unit in your codex" thing. I for one have been pleased to see that all the codecies have been becoming less and less competitive and more and more "beer and pretzels". GW claims that their products are meant to be used in a casual setting where the impressive paint job/modeling effort of an army is more important than the functionality of the list you built. Hopefully "powerlisting" like taking 9 TFC's is dead.

 1hadhq wrote:

Heavy support: Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwind, Land Raiders, thunderfire cannon, devastators, and on top of that a 'hunter' and 'centurions' ? Seems a bit crowded.....

Indeed! I think I ought to start playing double-FOC or Apoc exclusively at this rate, because Fast and Elite fill up so fast too.

 SickSix wrote:
Vanguard will be the hotness because they get a new kit. Sternguard will probably be nerfed somehow, I know it makes no sense but GW has a proven history of doing this as described by the other posters.

Raptors and Warp Talons would like to have a word with this statement...

Yeah, Raptors are interesting, but not great. Warp Talons... I can't think of a time that I'd want to take them. Maybe in a Zone Mortalis game or something.

Given that Sternguard are also supposed to be getting plastics, I'm going to lean towards optimism and hope they are not getting nerfed, rather that GW have realised how good they are and decided to make more money from them.

In other words - I'd be more than happy to see a straight up copy and paste job for Sternguard, but that might be because I've got 20 of them and just finished converting a Pedro count-as...

Given that Sternguard are also supposed to be getting plastics, I'm going to lean towards optimism and hope they are not getting nerfed,

Models that get cool new multi-part plastic kits never get less than the best when it comes to their new rules. (sardonic laughter)

 kronk wrote:
Yeah, Raptors are interesting, but not great. Warp Talons... I can't think of a time that I'd want to take them. Maybe in a Zone Mortalis game or something.

Mark of Tzeentch with an allied grimoire is the only idea I've considered trying.

I still cannot fathom putting power armor on... to strap into power armor on top of it...

 Alfndrate wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
Vanguard will be the hotness because they get a new kit. Sternguard will probably be nerfed somehow, I know it makes no sense but GW has a proven history of doing this as described by the other posters.

Raptors and Warp Talons would like to have a word with this statement...

As would Mutilators and the DA flyers...

 BrassScorpion wrote:

Given that Sternguard are also supposed to be getting plastics, I'm going to lean towards optimism and hope they are not getting nerfed,

Models that get cool new multi-part plastic kits never get less than the best when it comes to their new rules. (sardonic laughter)

Yea, most of the new fliers, the new on foot demon engines, some of the dark angels stuff would like to have a word with you.

Also in the eldar codex most of the models that are now considered very very good were old models. Things like warp spyders, wave serpents and bikes.

Chaos has the helturkey, but other than that the best units are still typically the old models

Tau, the riptide is very very good but in no way mandatory, other than that I think everything else that is really good is old models. The pathfinders got new models but are now cheaper moneywise then they were before if I am remembering right.

Just doesnt seem to add up. But maybe I am missing something.

pizzaguardian wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I just don't get the drama over the Black Templars.

You are a successor that never should have gotten a supplement in the first place and always should have just been a few pages in the SM codex. Flesh Tearers don't have a standalone codex and aren't crying for one. Neither are DA and their vast number of unforgiven successors. Hell, if the Wolf Brothers had not been disbanded, they wouldn't rate a standalone or supplement either. Hopefully BT get rolled rightly into the SM codex and balance is restored.

Wait, what?

Sir do you have any real knowledge or BT 's or know about the DA codex?

To be honest it has long been time to roll all the marines codices into one. Dark Angels didn't need more than 4-5 pages of the Marine codex. Same with Black Templars. The book should be a one stop shop of all the Astartes rules and be done with it.

The only army that needs its own rule book was the Demon hunters and it should have been the Inquisitorial codex covering all that stuff in one.

More books makes more mess. Easier to balance rules when you don't have 10 marine army books.

 Leth wrote:

Just doesnt seem to add up. But maybe I am missing something.

It adds up to GW not repeating things they've done in the past with kits like the Trygon where they're a lot better than the older models. GW seems to have heard the complaints about making older models useless but swung it pretty far the other way were the new models aren't really needed.

 1hadhq wrote:

Heavy support: Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwind, Land Raiders, thunderfire cannon, devastators, and on top of that a 'hunter' and 'centurions' ? Seems a bit crowded.....

Cut LR and make it a DT, perhaps move Whirlwind or Pred to FA?

 kronk wrote:
Warp Talons... I can't think of a time that I'd want to take them.

Well, if they had grenades they'd be decent, considering a jumpy Vanguard veteran costs the same as a Warp Talon, but has BP+CCW instead of 2 lightning claw attacks. Of course, the very cheap bikes not to mention stupid Heldrakes make fast attack slots scarce outside of Apoc. I only have a single Heldrake though, and even when I do get around to actually building my CSM I won't get more because I despise having even one because of how ridiculous they are especially now (got it before the 360 buff). So with one Heldrake and one squad of Bikers, I'm not sure what the last one will be. Could be Spawns if I ever buy some (expensive, ugly things) to run around with my Juggernaut Lord, or could be Talons/Raptors.

Buuuut that's going a bit off topic. I do hope the Vanguard vets get a slight point decrease, especially in jumpy mode. Jump packs are currently technically worth 7 points for an assault marine in that 5x7 points for jump packs removed = 35-point Rhino for free. But of course considering a basic assault marine only costs 18 points with the jump pack, 30 for an extra attack and special weapon options is a bit much. Especially considering it's not worth taking all that many special weapons, you end up being better off just taking TH+SS terminators instead given the cost. As it is right now, 25 would be a fairer cost for jumpy Vanguard compared to other C:SM units, but since other codices drop model point costs constantly... hard to say. DA assault marines are 17 points, so no huge drop there. Oh, but let's not forget another thing about the Vanguard unit cost - right now, its sergeant costs 45 points. Yes, that's with a power weapon, but it also means a jump sergeant is 55 points, which gets a bit ridiculous for a single-wound sergeant with a basic power weapon, considering he is mandatory yet his stats are the same as the rest of the veterans'. So you basically pay 10 points.... for the ability to challenge? Doh.

Getting the new Vanguard kit would also help with making the unit cheaper, considering the current Vanguard kit comes out at a whopping 250 points for the 5 models, since it has 1 relic blade (could be counted as power sword to get rid of 15 points), 2 power swords and 2 plasma pistols, plus the jump packs. Of course Finecast can be relatively easily converted to get rid of unwanted weapons, but even so.

Anyways, pointless rant that is known to anyone anyway, but that's what posting when tired causes

OK, here's a question: who would you like the author to be?

I'm going to come out and say I want Ward to get the gig again...because the current C:SM is the book I've most enjoyed playing.

Having read a majority of the replies above, does NOBODY here care about simply having a thematic army? A beer and pretzel army? An army that simply looks great because its got cool units and is painted well? An army with a story? An army like no other?

I might be wrong, but I guess a majority of the people that frequent these forums and bother reading and replying to these threads are metagamers which are very very much concerned with having the best army and winning.

Now nothing wrong with that, but it would be nice to see some people simply happy that GW is updating gaming material, providing variety and being creative.

Warhammer is not only points, math, statistics and winning for me. I am really looking forward to making a fun army and trying out different themes and... ill probably enjoy winning with my ''special"' army that with my "'meta"" army.

(braces for gak storm of critique...)

 aliusexalio wrote:
Having read a majority of the replies above, does NOBODY here care about simply having a thematic army? A beer and pretzel army? An army that simply looks great because its got cool units and is painted well? An army with a story? An army like no other?

I might be wrong, but I guess a majority of the people that frequent these forums and bother reading and replying to these threads are metagamers which are very very much concerned with having the best army and winning.

Now nothing wrong with that, but it would be nice to see some people simply happy that GW is updating gaming material, providing variety and being creative.

Warhammer is not only points, math, statistics and winning for me. I am really looking forward to making a fun army and trying out different themes and... ill probably enjoy winning with my ''special"' army that with my "'meta"" army.

(braces for shitstorm of critique...)

Nope, completely agree. I actively avoid playing competitively, I win some, I lose some, but the easiest way of avoiding getting frustrated by trying to play a poor ruleset for competitive gaming is not to play it competitively.

That said, I do want to feel I've got a chance every time I set up, so I do try and make an effort with my lists, I just don't tend to spam, and don't play one list exhaustively, I field what I fancy and change it around nearly every game.

aliusexalio I could not agree more with you. Who cares if warp tallons are not the "Best" option? They are by far the coolest one. Same is said for the warp fiend or whatever the giant walking thing is that looks sooooo coool! I for one am more into building a 1850 or so army that allows me to swap and change things at lower points levels and making them look super cool then, building a new army that I can then collect and paint making them look even better than the last one I built.

I'm all for a fun army, and rarely play a minmaxed list. But if the units you like and find fun in theory gets your army wiped off the table in practise, it's not so fun. In other words, a "beer and pretzels" army only works if all parties involved have the same idea of what that even means. Like for some people they swap like a single unit into something else "less optimal" and that's supposedly that, and then they bring 3 flyers when they know I have 0 zero air defense (as I did at the time).

I simply refuse to play against those armies. A friend of mine wants to min max and pick the best option while writing off some of the cooler options as useless. In our small gaming group he often finds that if i chooses not to play against him then he really has no one to play with and ends up just doing what is cool rather than what will smash the opponent into oblivion. If you get into a game with someone who brings 3 flyers knowing that you have none tell him "no thanks" and find someone else to play with.

 tvih wrote:
I'm all for a fun army, and rarely play a minmaxed list. But if the units you like and find fun in theory gets your army wiped off the table in practise, it's not so fun. In other words, a "beer and pretzels" army only works if all parties involved have the same idea of what that even means. Like for some people they swap like a single unit into something else "less optimal" and that's supposedly that, and then they bring 3 flyers when they know I have 0 zero air defense (as I did at the time).

agreed, i guess having a gaming group who all have a similair attitude works the best. Our group has an understanding that we all play for fun and we are looking for epic battles, yes offcourse you will run into a flying hive tyrant with iron arm or a soulgrinder of nurgle with 2+ cover save, but those are exceptions and actually have this "'wow"' factor because they are special.

I love some of the less cost effective units (I bought and painted 6 nurgling bases and they honestly suck compared to my other options...) but.. they are fun, i like m in my nurgle army and they stay close to my fw great unclean one....

Yea, most of the new fliers, the new on foot demon engines, some of the dark angels stuff would like to have a word with you.

The word is sarcasm, which I made explicit in my initial post though apparently either you, the Dark Angels or both missed it.

 Fezman wrote:
OK, here's a question: who would you like the author to be?

I'm going to come out and say I want Ward to get the gig again...because the current C:SM is the book I've most enjoyed playing.

I'll second that, actually. Not a hugely popular opinion, but I think that Ward did a great job with the current Codex, and I'd be more than willing to let him do it again.

 BrassScorpion wrote:

Yea, most of the new fliers, the new on foot demon engines, some of the dark angels stuff would like to have a word with you.

The word is sarcasm, which I made explicit in my initial post though apparently either you, the Dark Angels or both missed it.

I blame the Dark Angels. They're a chapter never really did have a sense of humor.

Marines make a piss poor beer and pretzels army at present; I don't want a hardcore army, I just want a fun army which doesn't lose constantly.

I can mess around with my Guard, and keep it fluffy and I'll generally still get a good fight, even against some pretty min-maxed armies. I likely won't win, but I'll at least make them work for it.

With marines, you just die if you don't have a flawless list or get great rolls and the other guy gets awful ones. I've seen one powerful marine army in my life, using a Badab War HQ which gave the army stealth running 2 thunderfires and a bunch of shooty marines behind aegis lines or in ruins, and it dies to heldrakes real bad, or a mobile close combat army (daemons give him quite a bit of trouble, as do Tau, which just ignore his cover, like a boss).

Fluffy doesn't work for marines at present, and I'd consider a successful codex one which allows that and to still stand a chance of surviving. I've got a small, but reasonably varied foot-marine army, and I'd like to be able to use it without basically throwing the game away or having to build more of those godawful drop pods.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Marines make a piss poor beer and pretzels army at present; I don't want a hardcore army, I just want a fun army which doesn't lose constantly.

I can mess around with my Guard, and keep it fluffy and I'll generally still get a good fight, even against some pretty min-maxed armies. I likely won't win, but I'll at least make them work for it.

With marines, you just die if you don't have a flawless list or get great rolls and the other guy gets awful ones. I've seen one powerful marine army in my life, using a Badab War HQ which gave the army stealth running 2 thunderfires and a bunch of shooty marines behind aegis lines or in ruins, and it dies to heldrakes real bad, or a mobile close combat army (daemons give him quite a bit of trouble, as do Tau, which just ignore his cover, like a boss).

Fluffy doesn't work for marines at present, and I'd consider a successful codex one which allows that and to still stand a chance of surviving. I've got a small, but reasonably varied foot-marine army, and I'd like to be able to use it without basically throwing the game away or having to build more of those godawful drop pods.

I know that feeling.

My last game with my BA, didn't know which army my oppo would choose from his main two or three. So I took some bits and pieces, some anti tank, some anti air etc etc.

He chooses his Nids, sets up with Swarmlord, Flyrant, 2 Tervigons and a bunch of Gants and Gaunts.

Turn one I just remember thinking "how the hell do I deal with this?!"

Needless to say, I didn't!

spamthulhu wrote:

pizzaguardian wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I just don't get the drama over the Black Templars.

You are a successor that never should have gotten a supplement in the first place and always should have just been a few pages in the SM codex. Flesh Tearers don't have a standalone codex and aren't crying for one. Neither are DA and their vast number of unforgiven successors. Hell, if the Wolf Brothers had not been disbanded, they wouldn't rate a standalone or supplement either. Hopefully BT get rolled rightly into the SM codex and balance is restored.

Wait, what?

Sir do you have any real knowledge or BT 's or know about the DA codex?

To be honest it has long been time to roll all the marines codices into one. Dark Angels didn't need more than 4-5 pages of the Marine codex. Same with Black Templars. The book should be a one stop shop of all the Astartes rules and be done with it.

The only army that needs its own rule book was the Demon hunters and it should have been the Inquisitorial codex covering all that stuff in one.

More books makes more mess. Easier to balance rules when you don't have 10 marine army books.

Marines is an easy copy paste job. No reason not to multiply this template for GW. In rules and models. Double win.

Maybe its time to roll the non imperial books into an "adversaries of the god-emporer & friends" dex.
Because more books = more mess.

The only army who needs a codex is:
- one that has been white dwarfed.

Anyone else has a book to play from. The Inquisition especially deserves to return to the place they had in 3rd ed: as part of the BRB. As possible allies. Not as Army. ID also remove the LotD from C:SM and put them into an "allies" section.

Just for once, could we stop 'rolling' anything anywhere before we have more than a rumor of a cover ( and No pics ) ?

azreal13 wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

Heavy support: Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwind, Land Raiders, thunderfire cannon, devastators, and on top of that a 'hunter' and 'centurions' ? Seems a bit crowded.....

Cut LR and make it a DT, perhaps move Whirlwind or Pred to FA?

A whirlwind isn't fast...right now. But maybe to become the second half of a new AA tank?
Predators should be fast. But FA?
FA : marines+bikes, marines+speeders, marines+jumppacks, maybe the fliers, etc.
El: termies, veterans, dreads, techmarines, etc
Until GW condenses a few of these there isn't a free spot.IMO.

I'd consider the Devastators in trouble if they add heavy weapon tooting heavy infantry in the same slot.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 BrassScorpion wrote:

Yea, most of the new fliers, the new on foot demon engines, some of the dark angels stuff would like to have a word with you.

The word is sarcasm, which I made explicit in my initial post though apparently either you, the Dark Angels or both missed it.

I blame the Dark Angels. They're a chapter never really did have a sense of humor.

Awwww man. Let the Dark Angels off this one time. Don't they have it hard enough trying to hunt down their traitorous brethren in secret. They probably think sarcasm leads to heresy.

Ooh, Devs, ASM and Tacs all Troops?!

Controversial, but somewhat fluffy and not necessarily too OP if (IF) the points are balanced right.

Well, frankly something needs to be moved to troops at this rate! Assault marines would indeed be a good choice (even with all the bitching that would cause from the BA camp), and even Devastators might work.

Is there any way they can make vanilla ASM not completely useless? Cause having read the DA book (which most certainly will have the same point values) I just don't see how...

Making them scoring would damn well help!

 tvih wrote:
Well, frankly something needs to be moved to troops at this rate! Assault marines would indeed be a good choice (even with all the bitching that would cause from the BA camp), and even Devastators might work.

As a BA player I wouldn't mind at all, since our ASMs are only (well, were only) good cause of DoA, FC, FNP, and the discount we got for switching jump packs for a Razorback, and I highly doubt vanilla ASMs are getting any of those.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 tvih wrote:
Well, frankly something needs to be moved to troops at this rate! Assault marines would indeed be a good choice (even with all the bitching that would cause from the BA camp), and even Devastators might work.

As a BA player I wouldn't mind at all, since our ASMs are only (well, were only) good cause of DoA, FC, FNP, and the discount we got for switching jump packs for a Razorback, and I highly doubt vanilla ASMs are getting any of those.

Don't forget special weapons options as well.

 azreal13 wrote:
Ooh, Devs, ASM and Tacs all Troops?!

Controversial, but somewhat fluffy and not necessarily too OP if (IF) the points are balanced right.

Should this happen, we might already have had a clue about it...the new Captains that came out with the Apocalypse release. There were Devastator and Assault versions...

They should make 10 man tactical squads unlock Devs and ASM's as troops, in the sense of how many tac squads you take allow you to take dev or ASM squads as troops.

Example, I take two two man tac squads, I am then able to purchase 1 ASM and 1 Dev squad, or 2 ASM or 2 Dev squads as troops

The limit is then that you can't take more than two of each, so if you take three Tac's you can't take 3 Dev's (as there aren't 3 squads in the standard company format). It fits the fluff and would solve the over crowding.

I have a gut feeling the new Captains we got for the Apoc release will unlock devs and ASM as troops, much like Master of the forge did with dreads.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:They should make 10 man tactical squads unlock Devs and ASM's as troops, in the sense of how many tac squads you take allow you to take dev or ASM squads as troops.
Example, I take two two man tac squads, I am then able to purchase 1 ASM and 1 Dev squad, or 2 ASM or 2 Dev squads as troops
The limit is then that you can't take more than two of each, so if you take three Tac's you can't take 3 Dev's (as there aren't 3 squads in the standard company format). It fits the fluff and would solve the over crowding.

Sounds like a pretty good idea, and would prevent tacticals from becoming obsolete. Or at least this could be applied to Devastators, I'm not sure if it's needed for assault marines.

In any case let us hope they came up with some way of organizing the units reasonably. Having too many things packed into Heavy or other specialist sections ought to be bad for sales too, since why buy more models into a FOC group that you already have more than full

 aliusexalio wrote:
Having read a majority of the replies above, does NOBODY here care about simply having a thematic army? A beer and pretzel army? An army that simply looks great because its got cool units and is painted well? An army with a story? An army like no other?

I don't play 40k, but am interested in the codex for fiction and art (though it's been a while since I bought one, but I figured I'd pay attention to the Space Marine one because they're iconic). I'm also interested in the miniatures for use with other rules (something part way between a terminator & a dread sounds awesome). So yeah, I'm totally unconcerned with the 40k game performance.

That said, I wish 40k could be a game that can be played beyond the beer and pretzel level. I'm always on the look out for truly robust miniature gaming rules and would love for 40k to become something more than the non-serious beer & pretzels joke that it is. Well, I guess it's not a joke, but a very useful tool for selling people loads and loads of miniatures. So it works for GW's purposes.

My number one wish for the Codex is that Captains, Chaplains and Chapter Masters aren't absolutely awful. Codex Dark Angels demonstrated that GW's rules department are still complete idiots and still didn't know how to make either decent, and they even managed to make Chaplains look worse in the process by giving people 65 point prescience Libby's.

I don't give a toss about the new units, most of them will probably end up mediocre anyway. I have low hopes for Dread Marines and the new AA tanks. If the new weirdly sized Termie/Dreadnought thing is an MC it will probably be good, if its a vehicle it will almost certainly be naff. Another thing that would kill it is if it suffers from the 'delusional designers image of firepower' as I think of it. The Storm Talon, from purely a model perspective, looks like a really fierce and dangerous assault craft with its twinlinked gatling cannons and other guns. In the reality of the game, its not that impressive at all.

The new Chapter Tactics without SC's rule sounds awesome and I really hope its true.

 aliusexalio wrote:
Having read a majority of the replies above, does NOBODY here care about simply having a thematic army? A beer and pretzel army? An army that simply looks great because its got cool units and is painted well? An army with a story? An army like no other?

I might be wrong, but I guess a majority of the people that frequent these forums and bother reading and replying to these threads are metagamers which are very very much concerned with having the best army and winning.

Now nothing wrong with that, but it would be nice to see some people simply happy that GW is updating gaming material, providing variety and being creative.

Warhammer is not only points, math, statistics and winning for me. I am really looking forward to making a fun army and trying out different themes and... ill probably enjoy winning with my ''special"' army that with my "'meta"" army.

(braces for gak storm of critique...)

I wish you lived near me…
I love DIY chapters, cool themes, fluffy units that fit the idea of your force and just having a fun game.
I pretty much quit because it became this Maximum death tween angst mouthy punk fest.
I hate sore losers and power gamers and guys that want to turn a 2 hour game into a 3 hour game because of the rules lawyer bit… that and the business model ruined me being an active member of my local and playing every weekends.
I wish more people had you attitude.

 Leth wrote:
Also if you have a generalist collection instead of a specialized collection then you handle the edition changes with much less purchases being required.

For example for my space marines I have a decent sized motor pool, a couple of every heavy weapon, a bunch of veterans of different stripes and a bunch of different HQs which will be magnetized for different configurations. When the new codex comes out I am looking at MAYBE 200 worth of additions(including codex), depending on how expensive the new armor guys are(if they even look good).

But then again I like to have a large diversity of stuff I can bring to the field instead of one uber build that never lasts more than a few codex’s much less an edition.

It also follows that things that become good wont even get a new kit. Look at warp spiders, guardians, wave serpents, and a bunch of other things from codex eldar that are good but without a new kit? Tau there was nothing mandatory in their new models to make a good list, are riptides good? damn right but are not mandatory.

And that’s how I do it… the basics won’t go anywhere and can be effective in the right hands.
I add other units as spice…

I also Stand by the It’s not your List it’s You…
Tactics play a huge role… poor tacticians can face poor tacticians MinMax, role the dice and march the field.
I’m thinking before the battle and every piece of terrain I place is for a reason. Every unit I set down Is sat there to move from A-Z and do its job…
I think some people just sort of rely on special rules to get them by…
Beardy, Sniviling sore loser, power gamer, might not even get a full game out of me… I’ve scrapped a Couple of games mid turn, 45 mins in and walked because the guy I was playing was 2 or more of the above qualities.

Fezman wrote:OK, here's a question: who would you like the author to be?

I'm going to come out and say I want Ward to get the gig again...because the current C:SM is the book I've most enjoyed playing.

Well...Ward did an ok job with the 5th edition one, not sure if i want him again. Personally, id like to see Phil Kelly write our Codex, especially after the good job he did with CSM (like it or not, CSM did get better with their dex, just ask the flaming turkey).

5deadly wrote:

 aliusexalio wrote:
Having read a majority of the replies above, does NOBODY here care about simply having a thematic army? A beer and pretzel army? An army that simply looks great because its got cool units and is painted well? An army with a story? An army like no other?

I might be wrong, but I guess a majority of the people that frequent these forums and bother reading and replying to these threads are metagamers which are very very much concerned with having the best army and winning.

Now nothing wrong with that, but it would be nice to see some people simply happy that GW is updating gaming material, providing variety and being creative.

Warhammer is not only points, math, statistics and winning for me. I am really looking forward to making a fun army and trying out different themes and... ill probably enjoy winning with my ''special"' army that with my "'meta"" army.

(braces for gak storm of critique...)

I wish you lived near me…
I love DIY chapters, cool themes, fluffy units that fit the idea of your force and just having a fun game.
I pretty much quit because it became this Maximum death tween angst mouthy punk fest.
I hate sore losers and power gamers and guys that want to turn a 2 hour game into a 3 hour game because of the rules lawyer bit… that and the business model ruined me being an active member of my local and playing every weekends.
I wish more people had you attitude.

 Leth wrote:
Also if you have a generalist collection instead of a specialized collection then you handle the edition changes with much less purchases being required.

For example for my space marines I have a decent sized motor pool, a couple of every heavy weapon, a bunch of veterans of different stripes and a bunch of different HQs which will be magnetized for different configurations. When the new codex comes out I am looking at MAYBE 200 worth of additions(including codex), depending on how expensive the new armor guys are(if they even look good).

But then again I like to have a large diversity of stuff I can bring to the field instead of one uber build that never lasts more than a few codex’s much less an edition.

It also follows that things that become good wont even get a new kit. Look at warp spiders, guardians, wave serpents, and a bunch of other things from codex eldar that are good but without a new kit? Tau there was nothing mandatory in their new models to make a good list, are riptides good? damn right but are not mandatory.

And that’s how I do it… the basics won’t go anywhere and can be effective in the right hands.
I add other units as spice…

I also Stand by the It’s not your List it’s You…
Tactics play a huge role… poor tacticians can face poor tacticians MinMax, role the dice and march the field.
I’m thinking before the battle and every piece of terrain I place is for a reason. Every unit I set down Is sat there to move from A-Z and do its job…
I think some people just sort of rely on special rules to get them by…
Beardy, Sniviling sore loser, power gamer, might not even get a full game out of me… I’ve scrapped a Couple of games mid turn, 45 mins in and walked because the guy I was playing was 2 or more of the above qualities.

Most of the people in my meta are like this, but we also try to out do each other. Its not like people aren't competitive (not WAAC or the poor sport). I've supposed its a vocal minority that want ROFLStomp FOTM army like tau is, but better than tau. Me personally, i want good Chapter Tactics so i can finally run Blood Ravens, not Ultrasmurfs wearing BR colors.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I have a gut feeling the new Captains we got for the Apoc release will unlock devs and ASM as troops, much like Master of the forge did with dreads.

Maybe not Troops, but scoring I could see as a possibility. I don't think it's a coincidence that the FOC fits a Space Marine battle company in its entirety, plus some support as is. Also, the thought of Devastators as a Troops choice is kind of a terrifying natural conclusion to the las/plas minmaxing in 4th edition, and I don't think I'd like to see more of that.

 Brother SRM wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I have a gut feeling the new Captains we got for the Apoc release will unlock devs and ASM as troops, much like Master of the forge did with dreads.

Maybe not Troops, but scoring I could see as a possibility. I don't think it's a coincidence that the FOC fits a Space Marine battle company in its entirety, plus some support as is. Also, the thought of Devastators as a Troops choice is kind of a terrifying natural conclusion to the las/plas minmaxing in 4th edition, and I don't think I'd like to see more of that.

What happened in 4th? I wasn't around for it.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
What happened in 4th? I wasn't around for it.

Before 5th edition introduced the need to take full-sized squads to unlock special and heavy weapons, 6-man Tactical squads with plasma gun and lascannon ruled the tabletop, due to Mathammer theorests having decided that this was the ultimate effective use of points.

 Fezman wrote:
OK, here's a question: who would you like the author to be?

I'm going to come out and say I want Ward to get the gig again...because the current C:SM is the book I've most enjoyed playing.

Yes, let's have Ward write the codex. Then we can read about Ultramarines killing Khorne with their bare hands while wearing Sisters of Battle Skins for capes. And then there'd be a story about an Ultramarine captain who single handidly destroys a Tyranid fleet by throwing a Sister of Battle into their main exhaust port.
And then a story about an Ultramarine Librarian who, kills a Sister of Battle and....

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Fezman wrote:
OK, here's a question: who would you like the author to be?

I'm going to come out and say I want Ward to get the gig again...because the current C:SM is the book I've most enjoyed playing.

Yes, let's have Ward write the codex. Then we can read about Ultramarines killing Khorne with their bare hands while wearing Sisters of Battle Skins for capes. And then there'd be a story about an Ultramarine captain who single handidly destroys a Tyranid fleet by throwing a Sister of Battle into their main exhaust port.
And then a story about an Ultramarine Librarian who, kills a Sister of Battle and....

My lord are you jaded. You're just going overboard, chill out.

Did I miss some Ward related SoB debacle?

Grey Knights were not 'pure' enough and had to slaughter some SoB as they were pure as the driven snow, and then proceeded to destroy some evil-McNasties from the warp. Kinda funny actually, as if the GK needed to be more pure ...

Am quite curious about the Centurions though ... harkening back to the whole 'Legion' and Roman empire thing ... just what I feel is going on.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Fezman wrote:
OK, here's a question: who would you like the author to be?

I'm going to come out and say I want Ward to get the gig again...because the current C:SM is the book I've most enjoyed playing.

Yes, let's have Ward write the codex. Then we can read about Ultramarines killing Khorne with their bare hands while wearing Sisters of Battle Skins for capes. And then there'd be a story about an Ultramarine captain who single handidly destroys a Tyranid fleet by throwing a Sister of Battle into their main exhaust port.
And then a story about an Ultramarine Librarian who, kills a Sister of Battle and....

TRIVIA TIME!

1. Ward wrote the 5th Edition Space Marine codex (it was apparently intended to be Codex: Ultramarines but due to some changes on how they wanted to handle the Codex Marines they got shoved in there right before it had to go to print), and Sisters DID NOT get mass slaughtered in it.

2. Ward wrote the new and revised fluff for the Sisters in the WD Codex, and it's FRIKKIN' GREAT. I play Sisters and I don't hate ANY of it. I REALLY love the bit in there where Sisters make it to a Shrine World that had been lost in the Warp, make planet fall, recover artifacts and GTFO before the Grey Knights show up and lamely glass the planet of Daemons. (This is actually significant if you recall that the Grey Knights use the Emperor's Tarot and their super-duper fast ships to react to everything before it can get out of hand, but the Sisters beat them there by DAYS and were done and gone by the time the Grey Knights hit the system).

3. The Bloodtide was the only instance in the Grey Knight codex where the Sisters were killed and the only reason it comes off as so bad is because no one proofed it and revised it. It's supposed to show how pragmatic and "take-no-chances" Grey Knights are but the writing needs some more work. It's not nearly as bad as some of the stuff out there when it comes to the Sisters (I'm looking at you Word Bearer series that talks about corrupting and then killing a coven of Sisters!).

Seriously, it's 2013 and Matt Ward has done a fair amount of good work that -AT LEAST- balances out anything he's done wrong, so quit focusing so hard on the bad all the time. I don't know about anyone else but I do rather tire of the hyperbole all the time about Ward and all the "travesties" he's committed. He's just one man whose doing his job the best he can under harsh deadlines and while juggling multiple projects at once AND nothing he does gets into a book just because he wrote it. Final call goes to Jervis, and there's even talk that ideas have to be vetted by the other devs too.

GW, please be gentle with my wallet next month... I kind of want everything on that list!

Hell. Brace yourselves for not-centurions in 3rd market.

They needed the blood of the innocent to shield then from nurgles plague I think. Grey Knights are many things but innocent is not one of them, which I think was the point.

 Leth wrote:
They needed the blood of the innocent to shield then from nurgles plague I think. Grey Knights are many things but innocent is not one of them, which I think was the point.

The shinning knight in armour is not as perfect as you think. The story of all 40K heros lol

livanbard wrote:Hell. Brace yourselves for not-centurions in 3rd market.

Or at the very least weapon options and upgrade parts. I'm all for 3 inch tall robots and power suits as long as they look cool.

 Marthike wrote:
The shinning knight in armour is not as perfect as you think.

Wait a sec... which ones are the armored shinning knights? Why would they want to kick someone in the shins as a way of dealing with them? Don't they have power weapons or bolters like the rest of the Imperium? Or is this some weird Eldar aspect? And why aren't they perfect? Don't they practice enough?

 Breotan wrote:

 Marthike wrote:
The shinning knight in armour is not as perfect as you think.

Wait a sec... which ones are the armored shinning knights? Why would they want to kick someone in the shins as a way of dealing with them? Don't they have power weapons or bolters like the rest of the Imperium? Or is this some weird Eldar aspect? And why aren't they perfect? Don't they practice enough?

Force boots, easy to pick up, difficult to master!

 FarseerAndyMan wrote:
I just want to see my Thunderfire Cannon get the ability to be bought in a unit of 1 - 3.

That would be the bane of my enemies.

That would be beyond forgeworld level of broken. Do you even realize how borderline broken the TFC is now with the new artillery rules?

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
They should make 10 man tactical squads unlock Devs and ASM's as troops, in the sense of how many tac squads you take allow you to take dev or ASM squads as troops.

Example, I take two two man tac squads, I am then able to purchase 1 ASM and 1 Dev squad, or 2 ASM or 2 Dev squads as troops

The limit is then that you can't take more than two of each, so if you take three Tac's you can't take 3 Dev's (as there aren't 3 squads in the standard company format). It fits the fluff and would solve the over crowding.

That's actually a brilliant idea! Exalted! Only now I'm gonna be sad when it doesn't happen.

D

 ph34r wrote:

 FarseerAndyMan wrote:
I just want to see my Thunderfire Cannon get the ability to be bought in a unit of 1 - 3.

That would be the bane of my enemies.

That would be beyond forgeworld level of broken. Do you even realize how borderline broken the TFC is now with the new artillery rules?

The TFC can't buy additional crew that turns into T7 wounds though.

And my DE just LOVE poisoning artillery to death

1-3 thunder cannons are not a bad idea, but it would be broken as hell, you have to factor not just the cannon itself (12 str6 blasts would melt anything on foot) but the fact that 3 bolster defences would give you almost army wide 3+ cover, throw in a aegis line and all you would see is 6 thunder cannons 1 tooled up pred or dev.squad and 2 5 man tacticals, this would come in at 920 with 4 lascannon dev and 2 las cannon in the 5 man tacos (assuming same as da) that is crazy fire power in such a small force

As unlikely as it is, I'd like to see a plastic dual kit for Thunderfire Cannon/Rapier Laser Destroyer (We know they're never gonna bring back the mole mortar.)

Plastic TFC with a proper plastic techmarine would rock, though I already have a finecast one that I need to finish assembling (after having already gotten it replaced once), and likely won't need more unless they indeed would allow them in "squadrons" or if I start playing more Apoc - the latter seems unlikely, after the LGS closed the new regular gaming locations mostly don't support Apoc-size that well.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Fezman wrote:
OK, here's a question: who would you like the author to be?

I'm going to come out and say I want Ward to get the gig again...because the current C:SM is the book I've most enjoyed playing.

Yes, let's have Ward write the codex. Then we can read about Ultramarines killing Khorne with their bare hands while wearing Sisters of Battle Skins for capes. And then there'd be a story about an Ultramarine captain who single handidly destroys a Tyranid fleet by throwing a Sister of Battle into their main exhaust port.
And then a story about an Ultramarine Librarian who, kills a Sister of Battle and....

Yep, expected that to be a controversial opinion. For what it's worth, I agree that the Bloodtide was bad fluff that contradicted everything in the Codex. But I'm not going to dismiss his entire output based on one paragraph.

He's written a few bits of bad fluff and some OP rules. I could be talking about any Codex writer at this point, though. If he writes this book, I'll be expecting solid rules like we have in the current version.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
They should make 10 man tactical squads unlock Devs and ASM's as troops, in the sense of how many tac squads you take allow you to take dev or ASM squads as troops.

Example, I take two two man tac squads, I am then able to purchase 1 ASM and 1 Dev squad, or 2 ASM or 2 Dev squads as troops

The limit is then that you can't take more than two of each, so if you take three Tac's you can't take 3 Dev's (as there aren't 3 squads in the standard company format). It fits the fluff and would solve the over crowding.

That's actually a pretty good idea. Take an exalt.

I dunno if fluff would permit it but the whole 1000 to a chapter has always bothered me.

Since most fluff stories I have come across focuses on the company strength that's 100 dudes.

To fight Necrons/Nids/Orksies/etc.
On a whole planet.

The scale has always felt off (Okay with Dark Eldar or Eldar who do not like committing huge numbers that that sounds ok).

So a new unit could be the regular human fighters they use (dunno what they usually call them). Even if they job is to secure areas the actual Marines already won.

Just a thought.

Think the Imperial Guard kinda has that covered...

Zanderchief wrote:
I dunno if fluff would permit it but the whole 1000 to a chapter has always bothered me.

Since most fluff stories I have come across focuses on the company strength that's 100 dudes.

To fight Necrons/Nids/Orksies/etc.
On a whole planet.

The scale has always felt off (Okay with Dark Eldar or Eldar who do not like committing huge numbers that that sounds ok).

So a new unit could be the regular human fighters they use (dunno what they usually call them). Even if they job is to secure areas the actual Marines already won.

Just a thought.

Serfs or whatever? That would definitely be cool, though it might make more sense as an allied list, and marine players might not be attracted to the basic human units.

Zanderchief wrote:
I dunno if fluff would permit it but the whole 1000 to a chapter has always bothered me.

Since most fluff stories I have come across focuses on the company strength that's 100 dudes.

To fight Necrons/Nids/Orksies/etc.
On a whole planet.

The scale has always felt off (Okay with Dark Eldar or Eldar who do not like committing huge numbers that that sounds ok).

So a new unit could be the regular human fighters they use (dunno what they usually call them). Even if they job is to secure areas the actual Marines already won.

Just a thought.

Thats called imperial guard. And keep in mind marines work as rapid strike forces to do critical damage. They dont do trench warfare and such.

EDIT: Redacted, I genuinely cannot be arsed dealing with the Matt Ward Defence League for the eleventy-billionth time.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Fezman wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Fezman wrote:
OK, here's a question: who would you like the author to be?

I'm going to come out and say I want Ward to get the gig again...because the current C:SM is the book I've most enjoyed playing.

Yes, let's have Ward write the codex. Then we can read about Ultramarines killing Khorne with their bare hands while wearing Sisters of Battle Skins for capes. And then there'd be a story about an Ultramarine captain who single handidly destroys a Tyranid fleet by throwing a Sister of Battle into their main exhaust port.
And then a story about an Ultramarine Librarian who, kills a Sister of Battle and....

Yep, expected that to be a controversial opinion. For what it's worth, I agree that the Bloodtide was bad fluff that contradicted everything in the Codex. But I'm not going to dismiss his entire output based on one paragraph.

He's written a few bits of bad fluff and some OP rules. I could be talking about any Codex writer at this point, though. If he writes this book, I'll be expecting solid rules like we have in the current version.

I don't know where people are getting this idea that Ward writes "solid rules" from, his books usually have one or two netlist builds which end up doing well, but the internal balance is among the worst. And people's objections to his fluff don't end with "the Blood Tide Affair"; Mortarian's heart on the Early Bird Special menu? Floaty ghost-Terminators? Ultramarines as the "popular kid" star of an American highschool teen drama? Avatar pimpslappery? Ward is the EL James of Games Workshop - a writer of awful, awful fanfics who's inexplicably experienced success.

And again, yes, I agree that most of the examples you've posted are poor fluff. But they're scattered examples that would hardly fill a couple of pages.

FWIW I think the focus on Ultramarines in C:SM made sense given that they are now the "all-rounder" of Codex Chapters.

As for internal balance problems and the effectiveness of netlists, well, these can be applied to all Codices. Take a look at Imperial Guard, Tyranids, Orks to name a few. And my reply to these issues is...so what? Nobody's forcing players to run a netlist or only pick the super-competitive stuff. Just because one thing in the FOC is clearly superior to the rest (e.g. Vendettas) doesn't mean you're obliged to take them. In other words, unless you're playing in tournaments, I think that use of netlists and the "best" units is the decision of the player and no fault of the author.

The reason I say that the current C:SM has "solid rules" is because it doesn't immediately leap out as being OP or weak,, exactly as the "all-rounder" army should. I don't see people bleating about how the book is too easy to win with or moaning because they can't win with it. I know that I can use it to throw together a wide range of lists from it ranging from the ultra-competitive to the complete opposite and still have a good time, with rules that fit how Marines should "feel," very few units that feel like I'd never want to take them, and decent wargear.

 Yodhrin wrote:


I don't know where people are getting this idea that Ward writes "solid rules" from, his books usually have one or two netlist builds which end up doing well, but the internal balance is among the worst.

Compared to what? Long Fangs? Pyrovores? Mutilators? Heldrakes? Venom Spam?

As far as internal balance is concerned, Mat Ward's book are lightyears above those of other writers. The C:SM and C:BA in 5th were a thing of beauty. Tank-lists, Jumper-Lists, Terminator-Lists, Shooty-Lists, Bike-Lists, etc.. Either of those had more viable internal variety than all non-Ward 5th Edition books taken together.

And people's objections to his fluff don't end with "the Blood Tide Affair"; Mortarian's heart on the Early Bird Special menu? Floaty ghost-Terminators?

Opposed to what? Maugan Ra defending an entire fething planet against a Nid-Hive fleet? Vect lopping loony-toon Black Holes without damaging the interior decoration (much less the rest of Commorrah)? The brilliantly named Decaptiator-wielding Decaptiator who decapitates people. Space Wolves going on sexual adventures (despite being... well.. Marines) with stolen Thunderhawks before throwing square-dance parties with Eldar in the Great Hall of Fenris?

Gimmie a break.

Ultramarines as the "popular kid" star of an American highschool teen drama?

Someone hasn't read the 4th Edition Space Marines Codex me thinks. There has never been as much non-Ultramarines fluff in any SM Codex, hell not even in all pre-5th Edition SM-Codexes together than that put in by Ward in the 5th Edition book. If anything, he should be scolded for giving White Scars, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Crimson Fists, Salamanders, etc. so much unprecedented limelight.

Avatar pimpslappery?

So what. A Chapter Master kills an Avatar? What's the deal. How is that worse than a random Imperial Guardsmen breaking Ravenor necks barehanded - literally barehanded! Or, as said, one lone Eldar Phoenix Lord (with lots of ammunition) defending an entire planet!!!! pole-to-pole and round the equator from an invading space-fleet?

And the Avatar things is what grinds your gear? Really?

Here are some rumours on price/contents changes for tactical squads and the Rhino being made into a combined kit with two types of Razorback (assault and shooty):

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/space-marines-new-tactical-and-new.html

Not sure if this is meant to be regarded as a rumour or if it's just speculation. If credible it suggests Tactical Squads will gain a lot more bits, but will go up to £30...

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:


I don't know where people are getting this idea that Ward writes "solid rules" from, his books usually have one or two netlist builds which end up doing well, but the internal balance is among the worst.

Compared to what? Long Fangs? Pyrovores? Mutilators? Heldrakes? Venom Spam?

As far as internal balance is concerned, Mat Ward's book are lightyears above those of other writers. The C:SM and C:BA in 5th were a thing of beauty. Tank-lists, Jumper-Lists, Terminator-Lists, Shooty-Lists, Bike-Lists, etc.. Either of those had more viable internal variety than all non-Ward 5th Edition books taken together.

And people's objections to his fluff don't end with "the Blood Tide Affair"; Mortarian's heart on the Early Bird Special menu? Floaty ghost-Terminators?

Opposed to what? Maugan Ra defending an entire fething planet against a Nid-Hive fleet? Vect lopping loony-toon Black Holes without damaging the interior decoration (much less the rest of Commorrah)? The brilliantly named Decaptiator-wielding Decaptiator who decapitates people. Space Wolves going on sexual adventures (despite being... well.. Marines) with stolen Thunderhawks before throwing square-dance parties with Eldar in the Great Hall of Fenris?

Gimmie a break.

Ultramarines as the "popular kid" star of an American highschool teen drama?

Someone hasn't read the 4th Edition Space Marines Codex me thinks. There has never been as much non-Ultramarines fluff in any SM Codex, hell not even in all pre-5th Edition SM-Codexes together than that put in by Ward in the 5th Edition book. If anything, he should be scolded for giving White Scars, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Crimson Fists, Salamanders, etc. so much unprecedented limelight.

Avatar pimpslappery?

So what. A Chapter Master kills an Avatar? What's the deal. How is that worse than a random Imperial Guardsmen breaking Ravenor necks barehanded - literally barehanded! Or, as said, one lone Eldar Phoenix Lord (with lots of ammunition) defending an entire planet!!!! pole-to-pole and round the equator from an invading space-fleet?

And the Avatar things is what grinds your gear? Really?

Agree. In hindsight and after more exposure to all things 40k, the 5th ex. SM codex is really a thing of beauty.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:


I don't know where people are getting this idea that Ward writes "solid rules" from, his books usually have one or two netlist builds which end up doing well, but the internal balance is among the worst.

Compared to what? Long Fangs? Pyrovores? Mutilators? Heldrakes? Venom Spam?

As far as internal balance is concerned, Mat Ward's book are lightyears above those of other writers. The C:SM and C:BA in 5th were a thing of beauty. Tank-lists, Jumper-Lists, Terminator-Lists, Shooty-Lists, Bike-Lists, etc.. Either of those had more viable internal variety than all non-Ward 5th Edition books taken together.

And people's objections to his fluff don't end with "the Blood Tide Affair"; Mortarian's heart on the Early Bird Special menu? Floaty ghost-Terminators?

Opposed to what? Maugan Ra defending an entire fething planet against a Nid-Hive fleet? Vect lopping loony-toon Black Holes without damaging the interior decoration (much less the rest of Commorrah)? The brilliantly named Decaptiator-wielding Decaptiator who decapitates people. Space Wolves going on sexual adventures (despite being... well.. Marines) with stolen Thunderhawks before throwing square-dance parties with Eldar in the Great Hall of Fenris?

Gimmie a break.

Ultramarines as the "popular kid" star of an American highschool teen drama?

Someone hasn't read the 4th Edition Space Marines Codex me thinks. There has never been as much non-Ultramarines fluff in any SM Codex, hell not even in all pre-5th Edition SM-Codexes together than that put in by Ward in the 5th Edition book. If anything, he should be scolded for giving White Scars, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Crimson Fists, Salamanders, etc. so much unprecedented limelight.

Avatar pimpslappery?

So what. A Chapter Master kills an Avatar? What's the deal. How is that worse than a random Imperial Guardsmen breaking Ravenor necks barehanded - literally barehanded! Or, as said, one lone Eldar Phoenix Lord (with lots of ammunition) defending an entire planet!!!! pole-to-pole and round the equator from an invading space-fleet?

And the Avatar things is what grinds your gear? Really?

An excellent retort. The whole thing about the gauntlets made that entire story actually believable and I really enjoyed reading it all.

Compared to some of the crazy gak that goes down in the 40k universe, its madness to even mention Marneus and his mighty deeds!

 Fezman wrote:
Here are some rumours on price/contents changes for tactical squads and the Rhino being made into a combined kit with two types of Razorback (assault and shooty):

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/space-marines-new-tactical-and-new.html

Not sure if this is meant to be regarded as a rumour or if it's just speculation. If credible it suggests Tactical Squads will gain a lot more bits, but will go up to £30...

The Tacs redone sounds possible. more bitz, lots of unneeded ones left but the price may go....

Twin role Razorback otoH? maybe flamers and asscans need less space now and there is an option to assault from it?

Can you feel the rising tide from such a move?

 ph34r wrote:

 FarseerAndyMan wrote:
I just want to see my Thunderfire Cannon get the ability to be bought in a unit of 1 - 3.

That would be the bane of my enemies.

That would be beyond forgeworld level of broken. Do you even realize how borderline broken the TFC is now with the new artillery rules?

Wait, the same Thunderfire Cannon that no one would take in 5th because it was overcosted and gak gets a buff that makes it useful and better balanced so now it's "borderline broken"? Did I miss something there?

Yes Zion...that's what happens in an ed change??
5th ravenwing sucked bum, now they rock.

Anywho what I.think he is trying to say is one thunder cannon is
Not an issue, 1-3 would be too hard, I would gladly pay 300 pts for all the ruins in my dep zone to be 3+ and have the ability to throw out 12 str6 templates or ignores cover or slows enemy, that would make it into nearly every marine army either as allies, or just taking them in codex marines

I like the idea of the “Centurions”, I always wanted “Terminator Heavy Weapon Squads”.

As for the some of the others, I like what I am reading so far.
As for my wallet though, I don’t see much damage unless I see a some things.
1] Centurions
2] Land Speeder Storms as Dedicated Transports
3] New Land Raider variant.
4] Plastic Sternguard/Vanguard Vets
5] Plastic Honor Guard

 Formosa wrote:
Yes Zion...that's what happens in an ed change??
5th ravenwing sucked bum, now they rock.

Anywho what I.think he is trying to say is one thunder cannon is
Not an issue, 1-3 would be too hard, I would gladly pay 300 pts for all the ruins in my dep zone to be 3+ and have the ability to throw out 12 str6 templates or ignores cover or slows enemy, that would make it into nearly every marine army either as allies, or just taking them in codex marines

No, I get that the edition change made it better, I just don't understand why it's now considered "borderline broken".

More news and rumors, more discussion of said news and rumors, less wish-listing and attempting to One Up Fluff Trounce, please!

 Anpu42 wrote:
I like the idea of the “Centurions”, I always wanted “Terminator Heavy Weapon Squads”.

As for the some of the others, I like what I am reading so far.
As for my wallet though, I don’t see much damage unless I see a some things.
1] Centurions
2] Land Speeder Storms as Dedicated Transports
3] New Land Raider variant.
4] Plastic Sternguard/Vanguard Vets
5] Plastic Honor Guard

I always wondered why there is no jetbike squads among the marines (exept for that one DE guy and FW models, making it even more baffling).
Did I miss something?
Dont think it would make much tactical sense, but they would probably sell (and by that, I mean it would be cinematic!).

To get back on topic: There was some discussion earlier (frankly it might not have even been in Dakka, I've been following this trail from a lot of sites), that the Vanguard and Sternguard models would likely be one box. Frankly I don't see it. That thing would be far too full of left over bits that GW would basically just be giving away for you to use in other units (not to mention it'd be a pay day for Bits Sites since all the options would be there for them to play with) that I fully expect the boxes to be separate so they can maximize profits from us buying them.

EDIT:

 Fayric wrote:

I always wondered why there is no jetbike squads among the marines (exept for that one DE guy and FW models, making it even more baffling).
Did I miss something?
Dont think it would make much tactical sense, but they would probably sell (and by that, I mean it would be cinematic!).

The Dark Angels (and maybe their successor due to how that codex works in unlocking Deathwing units as troops) have the last working Jet Bike(s) in the Imperium and they refuse to let the Adeptus Mechanicus touch it. I'm guessing anyone who knew how to maintain them likely went over to Chaos or died during the Heresy, or maybe the STC was accidently destroyed somehow.

 Anpu42 wrote:

5] Plastic Honor Guard

That would be too good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ClockworkZion wrote:
To get back on topic: There was some discussion earlier (frankly it might not have even been in Dakka, I've been following this trail from a lot of sites), that the Vanguard and Sternguard models would likely be one box. Frankly I don't see it. That thing would be far too full of left over bits that GW would basically just be giving away for you to use in other units (not to mention it'd be a pay day for Bits Sites since all the options would be there for them to play with) that I fully expect the boxes to be separate so they can maximize profits from us buying them.

That's basically what the DC box does.

 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

5] Plastic Honor Guard

That would be too good.

Imho you could do this quite fine with a well-made (sternguard/vanguard) veteran box and they could even mix in some two-handed power weapons and you would be able to build honor guard right of the box.

 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
To get back on topic: There was some discussion earlier (frankly it might not have even been in Dakka, I've been following this trail from a lot of sites), that the Vanguard and Sternguard models would likely be one box. Frankly I don't see it. That thing would be far too full of left over bits that GW would basically just be giving away for you to use in other units (not to mention it'd be a pay day for Bits Sites since all the options would be there for them to play with) that I fully expect the boxes to be separate so they can maximize profits from us buying them.

That's basically what the DC box does.

Most of that is covered with chapter, and often unit, specific iconography. The Vanilla Box wouldn't be, which is my point. It's so general that any Marine could use the bits, and GW could really cash in on it better if they made them separate boxes.

Now could they do a massive Death Company box? Sure! But I don't see GW being that generous with the bits.

Something I'll be very keen to see are the rules for the "Centurions."

I'm guessing that for the shooting variant Relentless will be there. Probably some way to fire both weapons in the shooting phase (assuming the gauntlet weapons are twin-linked).

For the assault version, I understand that "assault drills" are already available for Contemptor dreads, but I haven't seen those rules. So unless anyone could step in and definitively say what they do in the FW rules, I'd guess something like a chainfist with Fleshbane?

I would also speculate that the melee version's "frag launcher" simply counts as assault grenades. However, they could do interesting things with this such as making it like that Tau gadget that automatically hits a charging enemy at I10.

Pure speculation on my part, but since GW is extremely fond of dual kits as of late, would it be likely for them to do a Tactical/Sternguard Squad box, and an Assault/Vanguard Squad box? It would make sense to do that.

 Fayric wrote:

I always wondered why there is no jetbike squads among the marines (exept for that one DE guy and FW models, making it even more baffling).
Did I miss something?
Dont think it would make much tactical sense, but they would probably sell (and by that, I mean it would be cinematic!).

Jetbikes are incredibly rare in the 41st millennium. The jetbikes from Forgeworld are meant for the Horus Heresy, and Sammael has one of the last functioning Imperial jetbikes in existence. Also, it would be a really stupid kick in the teeth to Dark Angels players if jetbikes randomly got given to codex Marines, but not to the specific chapter of Marines who are big on old tech and have had the only Imperial jetbike in the game since 4th edition.

an Anonymous Source on Faeit 212 wrote:
a AV 12/11/10, 11 transport capacity, skimmer tank, fast attack option with medium weaponry that can be taken as a dedicated transport by vanguard veterans

Riiiight.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/08/space-marine-vanguard-new-dedicated.html

 heartserenade wrote:
Pure speculation on my part, but since GW is extremely fond of dual kits as of late, would it be likely for them to do a Tactical/Sternguard Squad box, and an Assault/Vanguard Squad box? It would make sense to do that.

Now THAT would be a great dual kit that I could see happening as they share a lot of options between their respective units and would only end up with a small handful of extra bits depending on what you built. Only wonder I'd have if they went this way is how they'd seperat the vets. Crux Terminatus shoulder pads in the box perhaps?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

an Anonymous Source on Faeit 212 wrote:
a AV 12/11/10, 11 transport capacity, skimmer tank, fast attack option with medium weaponry that can be taken as a dedicated transport by vanguard veterans

Riiiight.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/08/space-marine-vanguard-new-dedicated.html

Didn't Stickmonkey have a rumor about a new skimmer, or something like it, last year?

Either way it sounds like someone has been reading my wishlist as that's the AV value setup I've wishlisted about in the past for Sisters to get as a medium armed/armoured tank to give them something neat, but not identical to existing options.

Shoulder pads and more ornate helmets. Then a sprue of options that can be used by both. Seems totally possible in my head.

 Fezman wrote:
Here are some rumours on price/contents changes for tactical squads and the Rhino being made into a combined kit with two types of Razorback (assault and shooty):

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/space-marines-new-tactical-and-new.html

Not sure if this is meant to be regarded as a rumour or if it's just speculation. If credible it suggests Tactical Squads will gain a lot more bits, but will go up to £30...

Sounds like someone preemptively whining about whining rather than a rumor.

What would be hilarious is if they combined the rhino and razorback into one kit and then made it direct only.

 frozenwastes wrote:
What would be hilarious is if they combined the rhino and razorback into one kit and then made it direct only.

HaHaHAwwwwwww..... Now I've made myself sad....


I'm thinking that since I'm trying to get a battle company together, it may be in my best interest to grab the 10 man marine tac boxes before they get the Dire Avenger treatment. Thing is, I'm still excited about the possibility of the new bits coming in the tactical and Sternguard boxes. Maybe I'll just buy two of the four I need and bite the bullet on the other 20 marines if they go down to 5/ box. What are you guys thinking along these lines?

I'd wait and see. There's enough tactical squads in various stores and on eBay that if it ends up being a disaster like the dire avengers, you can grab them up after you know for sure.

 pretre wrote:

an Anonymous Source on Faeit 212 wrote:
a AV 12/11/10, 11 transport capacity, skimmer tank, fast attack option with medium weaponry that can be taken as a dedicated transport by vanguard veterans

Riiiight.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/08/space-marine-vanguard-new-dedicated.html

Transport capacity 11? Nah sounds like wish listing - and I don't really see the point unless it's an assault vehicle.

D

This Is twice now it's been said once by me and once by heartserenade.... I'm thinking it will be like the Raptors/Warp Talons squad with assault/vanguard and that’s cool cause that’s a lot of nice CC bits
But the sternguad could be 5 or 10 -Tactical/Sternguard- Might happen like that. GW does almost all Multi build kits now. I don’t see that being different here. If not tactical then what unit could duet with a sternguard unit. Vanguard have jump pack straps and jumping legs… It won’t be with them.
I’m just hoping that we get a serious new set of head variants as well… please don’t recycle those old played-out heads we all own a bitsbox full of.

 5deadly wrote:

Cool part is I just collect bits I got the parts to make over 300 marines… so when the game flips I just buy a box for bits, bare heads and different helms.
I’m excited to see what new bits come in the sternguard/tactical squad box. My bet is 5 man units with enough bit to build tactical/sternguard or assault/vanguard… think it over.

 heartserenade wrote:
Pure speculation on my part, but since GW is extremely fond of dual kits as of late, would it be likely for them to do a Tactical/Sternguard Squad box, and an Assault/Vanguard Squad box? It would make sense to do that.

BrotherVord wrote:
Wouldn't think confirm that black Templars are being rolled into c:sm?

Yep

Awww Oh well. As long as they have the Codex Space Marines with the variant BT cover I'm okay

I really don't think they'd 5 man the tac squads. It'd make the forge world bundles too good of a deal at that point. I mean FW is almost the better deal at this point, but still.

 BryllCream wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
The new paradigm seems to be 10 figure troop boxes and 5 figure elite boxes, with prices normalizing towards Australian levels.

Dire Avengers. Troops, 5 to a box. Necron Immortals. Troops, 5 to a box. PAGK. Troops, 5 to a box. Chaos Cultists. Troops, 5 to a box unless you're getting them from Dark Vengeance. SM Scouts. Troops, 5 to a box.

Although for the sake of transparency, Immortals and PAGK can both be built as other non-troop units.

None of those are the "bread and butter" troops though. Eldar Guardians, Necron Warriors, Chaos marines and fire warriors are all 10 to a box.

It could be changed to scouts as 10 per box and marines go to 5 per box.

TechMarine1 wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
The new paradigm seems to be 10 figure troop boxes and 5 figure elite boxes, with prices normalizing towards Australian levels.

Dire Avengers. Troops, 5 to a box. Necron Immortals. Troops, 5 to a box. PAGK. Troops, 5 to a box. Chaos Cultists. Troops, 5 to a box unless you're getting them from Dark Vengeance. SM Scouts. Troops, 5 to a box.

Although for the sake of transparency, Immortals and PAGK can both be built as other non-troop units.

None of those are the "bread and butter" troops though. Eldar Guardians, Necron Warriors, Chaos marines and fire warriors are all 10 to a box.

It could be changed to scouts as 10 per box and marines go to 5 per box.

Yes, but none of those have a competing discounted bundle deal from FW with better sculpts and more dynamic posing. So I really just can't see them wanting to lose money like that on a flagship product. I fully expect tac marines to stay in their own box of 10 with maybe a new weapons and accessory sprue.

BrotherVord wrote:
Wouldn't think confirm that black Templars are being rolled into csm?

This quote is so much better if you remove one punctuation mark.

 pretre wrote:

BrotherVord wrote:
Wouldn't think confirm that black Templars are being rolled into csm?

This quote is so much better if you remove one punctuation mark.

Khorne Berzerkers with Righteous Zeal and the ability to take ablative cultist meatshields? SIGN ME UP!


(Plus, that'd actually make more sense than the Templars using Scouts as meatshields! )

 pretre wrote:

BrotherVord wrote:
Wouldn't think confirm that black Templars are being rolled into csm?

This quote is so much better if you remove one punctuation mark.

it would be SO SO much better if I wouldn't try to post on my phone and have ridiculous typos that get quoted by people :(

Collecting Space MArines just for this reason... please give us a Raven Guard cover!

They are going to make an insane amount of money on the limited editions this time.

 Eldarain wrote:
They are going to make an insane amount of money on the limited editions this time.

agreed. lol

I'm a little confused about extra rules on the first founding legions, since BA/DA are part of those.

Will there be updates for BA/DA on what they can/can't take from the new stuff in the new codex?

 Moopy wrote:
I'm a little confused about extra rules on the first founding legions, since BA/DA are part of those.

Will there be updates for BA/DA on what they can/can't take from the new stuff in the new codex?

Uh, no? Obviously not.

Saying 'First Founding Chapters' instead of 'Imperial Fists, Salamanders, Iron Hands, Ultramarines, White Scars, and Raven Guard' is simply easier.

Why would DA get updated in the C:SM codex? C:SM didn't get any new units out of the CA codex getting launched, nor did C:SM get anything when the BA codex launched.

 HeraldofDisease wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
They are going to make an insane amount of money on the limited editions this time.

agreed. lol

I'm thinking about seven times as much as usual?

While amusingly facetious I'm thinking it will be more than merely seven times.

There will be the usual people who order them but far more who normally wouldn't will be tempted by having their chapter available.

I have usually scorned the whole concept but find myself considering it this time...

These LE books will actually sell out over the weekend, presumably.

As long as we get two figure kits, I'll be thrilled. If they want to make it three, I'll be even more thrilled. Plastic bits for Marines always makes me happy. This release is sounding like Christmas. Plastic Chappies and Librarians, plastic Vets (in whatever flavor), new Tac sprue.

That is even with expecting the Centurions to be lame. If they have loads of good bits, all the better.

Crazyterran wrote:

 Moopy wrote:
I'm a little confused about extra rules on the first founding legions, since BA/DA are part of those.

Will there be updates for BA/DA on what they can/can't take from the new stuff in the new codex?

Uh, no? Obviously not.

Uh, there's no "obvious" about it. Especially considering GW changes what it does on a moment's notice.

Thanks for being rude.

 Moopy wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

 Moopy wrote:
I'm a little confused about extra rules on the first founding legions, since BA/DA are part of those.

Will there be updates for BA/DA on what they can/can't take from the new stuff in the new codex?

Uh, no? Obviously not.

Uh, there's no "obvious" about it. Especially considering GW changes what it does on a moment's notice.

Thanks for being rude.

The only thing that's been flipflopped in terms of codices is if the Black Templar is going to be in Codex: Space Marines.

Did C:SM get updates from C:BA or C: DA? There's your answer.

 pizzaguardian wrote:

Zanderchief wrote:
I dunno if fluff would permit it but the whole 1000 to a chapter has always bothered me.

Since most fluff stories I have come across focuses on the company strength that's 100 dudes.

To fight Necrons/Nids/Orksies/etc.
On a whole planet.

The scale has always felt off (Okay with Dark Eldar or Eldar who do not like committing huge numbers that that sounds ok).

So a new unit could be the regular human fighters they use (dunno what they usually call them). Even if they job is to secure areas the actual Marines already won.

Just a thought.

Thats called imperial guard. And keep in mind marines work as rapid strike forces to do critical damage. They don't do trench warfare and such.

Yea i know that. But whilst they are off rapid striking everything who's securing locations, sticking up defense perimeters etc? 100 men, super or not, cannot cover an entire battlefield let alone an entire planet.
GW do a great job at making the galaxy feel huge (whole planets lost without noticing etc...) except when it come to this for me. The Chapters are too small IMO.

 Moopy wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

 Moopy wrote:
I'm a little confused about extra rules on the first founding legions, since BA/DA are part of those.

Will there be updates for BA/DA on what they can/can't take from the new stuff in the new codex?

Uh, no? Obviously not.

Uh, there's no "obvious" about it. Especially considering GW changes what it does on a moment's notice.

Thanks for being rude.

Actually it is pretty obvious. There have been NO rumors listed anywhere that have said anything about Blood Angels or Dark Angels. And as it stands as far as we all know there will be normal ally rules to share things in the book and that is all.

I really think the veterans kit will be a sternguard/vanguard combo. They're already similar enough in their finecast versions, the only difference really is weapons (boltguns vs boltpistols/chainswords) and jump packs, everything else can be shared.

Please don't nerf my Imperial Fists or Master of the Forge.

Zanderchief wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:

Zanderchief wrote:
I dunno if fluff would permit it but the whole 1000 to a chapter has always bothered me.

Since most fluff stories I have come across focuses on the company strength that's 100 dudes.

To fight Necrons/Nids/Orksies/etc.
On a whole planet.

The scale has always felt off (Okay with Dark Eldar or Eldar who do not like committing huge numbers that that sounds ok).

So a new unit could be the regular human fighters they use (dunno what they usually call them). Even if they job is to secure areas the actual Marines already won.

Just a thought.

Thats called imperial guard. And keep in mind marines work as rapid strike forces to do critical damage. They don't do trench warfare and such.

Yea i know that. But whilst they are off rapid striking everything who's securing locations, sticking up defense perimeters etc? 100 men, super or not, cannot cover an entire battlefield let alone an entire planet.
GW do a great job at making the galaxy feel huge (whole planets lost without noticing etc...) except when it come to this for me. The Chapters are too small IMO.

I've always felt the same. After all, in a single battle company of 100 marines, who is driving all the Rhinos moving the foot troops around? Who is piloting the Stormravens and Thunderhawks that are getting them to the planet's surface? Who if piloting the Stormtalons that are providing air support? Who is driving the Predators, Vindicators, and Whirlwinds providing big gun support? Who is still staying behind on the orbiting strike cruiser overseeing the battle, commanding the ship, and standing ready to provide reinforcement? The numbers add up real quick.

Anyway, my biggest fear of a new C;SM release is that they'll halve the Tactical squad box and keep the current price (a la Dire Avengers). I expect a combined Sternguard/Vanguard box (same bodies, just different arms and weapons, really).

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Zanderchief wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:

Zanderchief wrote:
I dunno if fluff would permit it but the whole 1000 to a chapter has always bothered me.

Since most fluff stories I have come across focuses on the company strength that's 100 dudes.

To fight Necrons/Nids/Orksies/etc.
On a whole planet.

The scale has always felt off (Okay with Dark Eldar or Eldar who do not like committing huge numbers that that sounds ok).

So a new unit could be the regular human fighters they use (dunno what they usually call them). Even if they job is to secure areas the actual Marines already won.

Just a thought.

Thats called imperial guard. And keep in mind marines work as rapid strike forces to do critical damage. They don't do trench warfare and such.

Yea i know that. But whilst they are off rapid striking everything who's securing locations, sticking up defense perimeters etc? 100 men, super or not, cannot cover an entire battlefield let alone an entire planet.
GW do a great job at making the galaxy feel huge (whole planets lost without noticing etc...) except when it come to this for me. The Chapters are too small IMO.

I've always felt the same. After all, in a single battle company of 100 marines, who is driving all the Rhinos moving the foot troops around? Who is piloting the Stormravens and Thunderhawks that are getting them to the planet's surface? Who if piloting the Stormtalons that are providing air support? Who is driving the Predators, Vindicators, and Whirlwinds providing big gun support? Who is still staying behind on the orbiting strike cruiser overseeing the battle, commanding the ship, and standing ready to provide reinforcement? The numbers add up real quick.

Anyway, my biggest fear of a new C;SM release is that they'll halve the Tactical squad box and keep the current price (a la Dire Avengers). I expect a combined Sternguard/Vanguard box (same bodies, just different arms and weapons, really).

When you do the math a Battle Company actually as 107 Marines and 3 Dreadnoughts when at max capacity (the 1st company counts the same). Scout Companies have 101 (100 Scouts and a Captain), and there are 5 Librarians in your average Chapter. Add in the Chapter Master and his Honor Guard and you have a minimum of 1,064 Marines and 24 Dreadnoughts, not counting who knows how many Techmarines/Masters of the Forge are in the chapter as well.

So needless to say I think the "1,000 Marines in a Chapter" only includes the Marines in combat roles and exclude the Captains, Dreadnoughts, Techmarines, Librarians, Chapter Master, all the Command Squads and the Honor Guard.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Zanderchief wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:

Zanderchief wrote:
I dunno if fluff would permit it but the whole 1000 to a chapter has always bothered me.

Since most fluff stories I have come across focuses on the company strength that's 100 dudes.

To fight Necrons/Nids/Orksies/etc.
On a whole planet.

The scale has always felt off (Okay with Dark Eldar or Eldar who do not like committing huge numbers that that sounds ok).

So a new unit could be the regular human fighters they use (dunno what they usually call them). Even if they job is to secure areas the actual Marines already won.

Just a thought.

Thats called imperial guard. And keep in mind marines work as rapid strike forces to do critical damage. They don't do trench warfare and such.

Yea i know that. But whilst they are off rapid striking everything who's securing locations, sticking up defense perimeters etc? 100 men, super or not, cannot cover an entire battlefield let alone an entire planet.
GW do a great job at making the galaxy feel huge (whole planets lost without noticing etc...) except when it come to this for me. The Chapters are too small IMO.

I've always felt the same. After all, in a single battle company of 100 marines, who is driving all the Rhinos moving the foot troops around? Who is piloting the Stormravens and Thunderhawks that are getting them to the planet's surface? Who if piloting the Stormtalons that are providing air support? Who is driving the Predators, Vindicators, and Whirlwinds providing big gun support? Who is still staying behind on the orbiting strike cruiser overseeing the battle, commanding the ship, and standing ready to provide reinforcement? The numbers add up real quick.

Anyway, my biggest fear of a new C;SM release is that they'll halve the Tactical squad box and keep the current price (a la Dire Avengers). I expect a combined Sternguard/Vanguard box (same bodies, just different arms and weapons, really).

You are talking like there is no techmarines and such, support elements are not included in the 1000 marine chapter. There are many support elements after all Librarium, Armoury, Apothecarion, Chaplaincy, and Fleet.

The numbers don't add up real quick, since the combat squad vs thousands of cultists is the usual combat for a space marine. After all you don't train and arm super soldiers to die in droves, marines can go on even when they loose arms and legs or pierced by their hearts.

And the new C:SM will probably reduce the points of the regular Tac marine, which will add to the illusion that marines are only worth 3 guardsmen max 4. I actually would have perefered movie marines more then actually being able to field a battle company within a 2k game (You even get points for upgrade if you do it in CA)

On topic: On razorback box ; i think the assault variant and the support variant will have the same rules, just the top gun will be different. So they can actually provide all the guns somehow.

 5deadly wrote:
This Is twice now it's been said once by me and once by heartserenade.... I'm thinking it will be like the Raptors/Warp Talons squad with assault/vanguard and that’s cool cause that’s a lot of nice CC bits
But the sternguad could be 5 or 10 -Tactical/Sternguard- Might happen like that. GW does almost all Multi build kits now. I don’t see that being different here. If not tactical then what unit could duet with a sternguard unit. Vanguard have jump pack straps and jumping legs… It won’t be with them.
I’m just hoping that we get a serious new set of head variants as well… please don’t recycle those old played-out heads we all own a bitsbox full of.

They've already done an infantry/jump pack dual kit. You've seen the Death Company Box right? Sternguard/Vanguard are perfect for the same style of box. Heck, even the GK PA box has a jumper unit in it though the legs aren't as good.

Just figured I'd point this out.

Zanderchief wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:

Zanderchief wrote:
I dunno if fluff would permit it but the whole 1000 to a chapter has always bothered me.

Since most fluff stories I have come across focuses on the company strength that's 100 dudes.

To fight Necrons/Nids/Orksies/etc.
On a whole planet.

The scale has always felt off (Okay with Dark Eldar or Eldar who do not like committing huge numbers that that sounds ok).

So a new unit could be the regular human fighters they use (dunno what they usually call them). Even if they job is to secure areas the actual Marines already won.

Just a thought.

Thats called imperial guard. And keep in mind marines work as rapid strike forces to do critical damage. They don't do trench warfare and such.

Yea i know that. But whilst they are off rapid striking everything who's securing locations, sticking up defense perimeters etc? 100 men, super or not, cannot cover an entire battlefield let alone an entire planet.
GW do a great job at making the galaxy feel huge (whole planets lost without noticing etc...) except when it come to this for me. The Chapters are too small IMO.

There's also the fact the Space Marines don't go to war the same way IG or Orks do. They don't stick up defense perimeters, they get in where they need to be via the fastest method possible, complete their assigned mission, and then get out. That whole securing ground stuff is left to the Guard. So no, 100ish Marines can't cover and defend an entire planet, but that's because that isn't what they're supposed to do.

So they have to wait around for the guard to come in? For a force that operates alone that's hard to do.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
If that's how the operate then fair enough. Simply means that one chapter can't do much at any one time.

Zanderchief wrote:
So they have to wait around for the guard to come in? For a force that operates alone that's hard to do.

That's why Imperium planets have PDFs which are basically under-trained/equipped Guard explicitly for protecting that planet. Also Marines usually show up after things have already gotten so bad that only they can bail the planet out.

Plus they don't always deploy in force, sometimes they just Exterminatus the planet instead, it all depends on the planet, what significance it holds in the Imperium, the threat and how bad things have gotten.

Also usually they operate in concert with guard regiments and other such forces.

Even then at chapter strength they can take entire planets, they isolate primary objectives and cripple/wipe out their opponents.

The number of marines doesn't really make sense for the size of the galaxy. Especially when you add in the type of delays that happen with warp travel. There really should be 1000 times as many if you wanted anything like a real presence of marines in the galaxy. The canon number of marines in the galaxy is basically at a point where they are irrelevant.

 frozenwastes wrote:
The number of marines doesn't really make sense for the size of the galaxy. Especially when you add in the type of delays that happen with warp travel. There really should be 1000 times as many if you wanted anything like a real presence of marines in the galaxy. The canon number of marines in the galaxy is basically at a point where they are irrelevant.

Well there used to be a LOT more Marines, but you have to love the Heresy for reducing them to a shadow of their former selves. Needless to say it's a good chunk of the reason why the Imperium is at best stagnant, if not shrinking.

Think they said in one piece of fluff there have less than one marine per planet in the Imperium.

So i wasn't trying to derail the thread with the size of a chapter topic.

I just think it would be a good idea to actually accept the fact that they need guard to wage certain types of warfare and therefore add a few guard like units in the dex. This is mainly because the allies as is makes for some OP combos so it would allow people to play Marines how they wage war, without the OP part. Well I am not sure it is a good idea actually... just a thought.

So...without any news or rumors to discuss anymore...

 Alpharius wrote:
So...without any news or rumors to discuss anymore...

We need images so "this is ridiculous" can resume

 Hulksmash wrote:

 5deadly wrote:
This Is twice now it's been said once by me and once by heartserenade.... I'm thinking it will be like the Raptors/Warp Talons squad with assault/vanguard and that’s cool cause that’s a lot of nice CC bits
But the sternguad could be 5 or 10 -Tactical/Sternguard- Might happen like that. GW does almost all Multi build kits now. I don’t see that being different here. If not tactical then what unit could duet with a sternguard unit. Vanguard have jump pack straps and jumping legs… It won’t be with them.
I’m just hoping that we get a serious new set of head variants as well… please don’t recycle those old played-out heads we all own a bitsbox full of.

They've already done an infantry/jump pack dual kit. You've seen the Death Company Box right? Sternguard/Vanguard are perfect for the same style of box. Heck, even the GK PA box has a jumper unit in it though the legs aren't as good.

Just figured I'd point this out.

Yeah I own a single kit of both i broke down and bought the GK kit... but the GK models are teleportes not Jumppackers... so.... but the Blood angel kit really reminds me of the old BT kit sort of... I mean you can make a solid unit but to me it seemed like a bits fest... those Blod drops got razor shaved, sanded and Plastic cement to perfect smoothness... work well a plain SM kit... sternguad are going to be Dope!

So... Any store owners that can weigh in on a Black Templars LE Codex cover for C: SM?

I need to ear-mark some moneys.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/08/space-marine-large-walker-debunked-and.html

I doubt it was the FW model but the Centurian's green if anything was seen at all. Either way, no Space Marine MC!

I really hope they make more veteran specific shoulder pads for BA and other chapters, kind of like these for the Crimson Fists:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440277a&prodId=prod1600072a

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/08/detailed-space-marine-rumors-are.html

Looks like the rumoured centurians might be able to upgrade with grav weapons also. The hunter sounds pretty cool along with both new vet kits, but we will have to see.

I love the GW CF packs.

That picture just needs a couple more dead orks.

While we're at it, how about this one?



/loves me some Crimson Fists

 Ironwill13791 wrote:
That picture just needs a couple more dead orks.

If by "a couple" you mean a "3 foot tall pile or dead Ork models with the Crimson Fists standing atop the pile" then I agree.

Crimson Fists ftw! I would def snap up a LE codex if one of them was CFs. Failing that I shall have to get the Imp one.

Im betting the new tactical marine box of 10 marines will go at around 40 euro's.

 Leth wrote:
Also usually they operate in concert with guard regiments and other such forces.

Even then at chapter strength they can take entire planets, they isolate primary objectives and cripple/wipe out their opponents.

"In concert" indeed, and thats why IG are so Scared of Blood angels. Its a good thing Gabriel Seth figured out his Flesh Tearers must arrive early to the battle
to prevent IG casualties and avoid vitnesses to their wholesale slaughter. Thats public relations 40k style

*Sets aside Codex money*.

I hope the vanguard get some decent alterations points-wise. Whole new rhino variant rather than updating the whirlwind is a bit lame (be hunting down just the turret pieces if true). Plastic chaplain would be nice, might hold off sawing up my old metal one. Centurions & grav-weapons, sure, why not. Not like I'll ever get around to painting them anyway

Bit concerned with this new AA tank do we really need two AA tanks? Do we need any? I'd rather it had interceptor and cost alot than only have skyfire and be a dust collector.
Hopfully it can remove jinx saves to.

As for the Grav Gun, don't forgeworld already do a grav gun armed set of boarding troops? What's the general rules idea behind them?
Will be strange if it's completely different him called the same...

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/08/no-longer-rumors-here-is-space-marine.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Faeit212+%28Faeit+212%29

Some rumours/confirmations about the space marines release.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Ironwill13791 wrote:
That picture just needs a couple more dead orks.

If by "a couple" you mean a "3 foot tall pile or dead Ork models with the Crimson Fists standing atop the pile" then I agree.

By ork measures that is "a couple". But I digress to Crimson Fists vs. Orks is awesome. Maybe C. FIsts will get preferred enemy (orks) when the codex drops in September. It would fit along with the chapter tactics.

via anonymous sources
Space Marine Codex
176 pages!!!!! $58
by Robin Cruddace
Cover pic is a close up Ultra Marine pointing forward into battle

War Zone: Damnos
by Phil Kelly
68pages $33

Space Marine Stalker/Hunter
$65
The three barreled Stalker and the Single large barreled Hunter

Space Marine Reclusiam Command Squad
$90
Includes Razorback 5 man command squad and a space marine chaplin

Space Marine Captain
1 model $30

Space Marine Librarian
1 model $30

Space Marine Strikeforce
39 models $220

Space Marine Centurion Devastator/ Assault Squad
3 models $78

Space Marine Tactical Squad
10 models $40

Space Marine Sternguard
5 models $50

Space Marine Vanguard
5 models $40

Oh, Cruddace.

And again an Ultramarine cover.... pay more if you don't want blue ...

How many warzone's are published right now?

Holy fart those are expensive. Puppetswar here I come!

Well, if the tactical box stays at $40 for 10 models, that's actually not too terrible...

I'll be dissapointed if the 5-man vanguard and sternguard boxes are at the $50 PP and not the $33 PP.

From Endobai over on Warseer:

Ok. Some info from the White Dwarf. Not much, no images because I've promised and the forum rules.
No PM with requests please - soon it will leak smewhere anyway.

Black Templars are back in the Codex SM, but seem to keep everything - Crusader squad is there, Neophytes too, Emperor's Champion as well.
Don't know about the vows, though.

The codex is MASSIVE- 176 pages, so almost twice as big as other books in this edition. Slightly more expensive, but seems like a good deal. Still FW books are cheaper (per page), but this book might be like the most flexible SM codex ever considering it covers the BT within its core rules (traits? Most likely).

Veteran boxes - Vanguards and Sternguards are separate boxes. Sternguards are a bit cheaper.

Both have massive number of heads, with helmeted and unhelmeted options.


Tactical isn't too expensive for so many new options including two of the new grav weapons.
Sadly, it seems there is only one Mk VIII Errant chestplate, but maybe I'll find more later.

Hunter/Stalker is a combi-set covering two AA tanks with different weapons.


Centurions are big and expensive, in a set of three - about the Land Raider price, but seem to come on 60 mm bases so like SM bigger (more options) KillaKans.

When asked about the aesthetic of the Centurions:

Hmm, hard to say. I am an Eldar player...

Similar to a bigger Techmarine with some additional armour plates and big arm weapons + chest/armpit weapons.
Yep, KillaKan or loyalist Obliterators seem like a good description.

Marine heads look really small in this super armor.

And:

Feet like small Dreadnought feet mixed with Terminator armour.
Legs similar to the Techmarine (artificier armour).
Chest. Hmm... bigger with ornaments.
Shoulder pads similar to the old FW Terminator armour - like in the FW Cataphractii armour, but no leather strips and seem too big.
Arms just overloaded with weaponry. Like bigger Terminator arms with weapons attached to them.

EDIT2: More from Endobai, this time regarding the contents of the Tac and Stern/Vanguard boxes;

More info.

There is definetely more archaic armour pieces in the Tactical set.

I've noticed Mk VI legs as before and Mk V Heresy chest plates. Maybe even for Mk VI Corvus, but the angle doesn't allow to confirm that.
Looks like there is a Mk IV Maximus helmet and Mk IV legs (!).



Sternguards

One Mk IV bionic helmet (and the rest of the armour seems like Maximus too).
Corvus armour legs and helmet for sure. The chest is as always a problem.
The pissed off Marine with beard head is really great.

Vanguards

Mk IV, Mk VI helmets and legs. The mohawk head looks great.

EDIT3: More on the contents of the Tac squad(still Endobai);

It says something about 8 weapon options for the sergeant alone. It includes combi-weapon, but only one apparently because it is assembled from parts. Guess with some conversion skills it will make a nice set.

Special weapons. I am not really certain. The grav-rifle is there, I didn't see flamer, but it should be there, neither melta, but plasma is shown.

Missile launcher for the heavy for sure and I believe that would be all in this entry. Flakk missiles will be available (battle report), but everyone knew that.






Cover of the codex

It shows one Ultramarine officer and seems generally similar to the cover of the Eldar codex. Interesting, but there will be an Apocalypse warzone supplement/book for a campaing involving Ultramarines - it is based on a battle/campaign described in one of the Space Marine Battles Black Library novel.

EDIT4:
On Black Templars;

Endobai wrote:I've noticed they have a sergeant with a different name and access to sternguard veterans and all other stuff the SM get. Probably it is limited somehow (no proper scouts?), but it is hard to say.

Regarding Centurions;

Shown in Imperial Fists colours and description tells something about siege equipment (have combat drills much like the FW dreadnough arm). Iron Hands are shown with tacticals and sternguards, but not with the Centurions.

About the new AA dual kit;

One seems to have split fire or something similar.

EDIT5: Still Endobai, Strenguard are apparently combi-palooza;

Sternguards.

Many, many, many combi-weapons. Looks like hv.bolter and heavy flamer are both there.

Interesting, but it seems they've decided to split offensive weapons and combi/ranged options from the veteran finecast set so Vanguards got all close combat options (relic blade, lightning claws, TH and SS, power axe etc).

A nice touch is that Vanguards are shown in Raven Guard colours (except obligatory Ultramarine photos).

EDIT:

Right, that's it for the moment apparently. If this is on the money, GW might just have won me over, even on the Centurions(although for myself I'll likely still only make use of their rules, for counts-as AdMech Praetorians). Loads of bitz everywhere, boxes that actually contain most-if-not-all of the options for the unit, and a Marine book that is both more expansive and more inclusive.

A bit bummed about the Van/Sternguard being separate kits. New Tacs look pretty reasonably priced. The Captain and the Librarian are a bit ridiculous though at £20. I'll probably pick up one of eac of the new boxes except for the centurions £45 to steep.

Let the hysteria began.

So is it safe the say the limited editions will break $100. Or maybe sit at $99/$98?

Space Marine Codex 176 pages!!!!! $58

Space Marine Stalker/Hunter $65: The three barreled Stalker and the Single large barreled Hunter

Space Marine Reclusiam Command Squad $90: Includes Razorback 5 man command squad and a space marine Chaplin!

Space Marine Centurion Devastator/ Assault Squad 3 models $78

Space Marine Sternguard 5 models $50

Space Marine Vanguard 5 models $40

Well my wallet is going to need sextuple bypass after this.

I don't think it's new it's probably just a 1-click bundle.

Hey guys

I managed to get a deeper look into the upcoming White Dwarf which obviously showcases the new SM stuff. I promised not to take any pictures and since my possible future early insight into WD depends on it - I won't
Take it as you wish, but this isn't salt - this is what exactly is coming

BOOKS:
- Codex: Space Marines with a very nice picture of badass looking Space Marine (probably best C:SM cover so far)
- confirmed the 7 limited versions
- none showed in WD, all mentioned obviously as mail-order only
- small Apocalypse Warzone will also be released (unsure if it's digital only or not) - Damnos (see the BL book "Fall of Damnos" - basicly Necrons vs. Ultramarines)

PLASTIC KITS:

Space Marine Captain & Space Marine Librarian (2 separate clamp-packs)
- not to confuse with multi-part customisable Space Marines Commander set which should stay around
- those are like Cadre Fireblade, Aspiring Champion etc... 1 pose, plastic
- Captain has Cato Sicarius-like helmet and lots of bling, has a very similar pose to Captain from AOBR, Power Sword and Combi-Grav
- Librarian has beard (a lot of SM beards + bald heads in this release ) and a skull-cap thingy wihich makes him look a bit like... Merlin
- Librarian also has a power staff (or whatever you call that) held horizontally, and one ugly herub-like servitor cupid (creepy stuff)

Reclusiam Command Squad
- not sure if this replaces SM Command Squad kit
- contains the mentioned SM Command Squad (don't see any changes here), a plastic Chaplain and... Razorback - all for 55£
- this definetly isn't the prettiest Chaplain model out there but it has some nice bitz, nice big skully Crozius and 2 heads - one bald with Kano-like face implant and the other is a skull helmet (looks a bit iffy)
- he also has purity seals with massive ribbons/parchments blown by the wind

Sternguard Veterans
- A W E S O M E!
- all the best elements fromt heir old metal versions, long loincloths, tons of bling, ornaments on helmets and armor, seems to have lot of bitz
- finally we get plastic versions of combi-weapons, all seem to be here including the new Combi-Grav
- nice new plastic Heavy Flamer and Heavy Bolter (version with drum-mag)
- badass heads and poses (yap, another bald head with beard)
- sergeant has a "roman-mohawk" on his helmet (not the Sicarius one, other way around )
- 5 models in box

Vanguard Veterans
- slightly less bling then their on-foot veteran brothers
- nice ornaments on chainswords and power sword (relic/master-crafted versions?)
- mohawk head for sarge (like Lord Executioner, perhaps it's a trend for jump-packers? )
- some nice aquila markings on jump packs
- awesome power-sword / relic blade
- not as jaw dropping as Sternguards, sadly
- 5 models in box

(NEW) Tactical Squad
- 10 models, price increased slightly (we could have seen that coming, couldn't we? )
- not many changes here, will nicely mix with bits from old kit
- major addition is more head variants and new Grav-Gun and Grav-Pistol
- some new ornaments on backpacks and shoulder pads (not all, just few bits to make some difference among marines)
- interesting bits: Auspex is back! (but DA heralded that already), set of bolter/arms during reload (looks cool), badass Combi-Flamer, nice new (smaller) Power Fist
- I would suggest buying a box of Tactical Squad that's currently in sale before next month (it'll surely be gone by then) to have a wider array of bits (unless you already have tons of them )

Now let's clear some rumors regarding new vehicles:
- NO new rhino kit, still the same, old, badly cast chassis with massive holes after you glue it :((
- NO new versions of Razorback / Predator / Whirlwind - all stays the same apparently
- NO sign of Rhino-variants (but perhaps they just differ rule-wise)
- NO "Big Walker" - forget about Dreadknight / Riptide / Wraithknight counterpart for SM :((
- NO new Skimmers / Flyers (especially no sign of one that was mentioned in rumours recently)
- NO new Bikes, Landriders or Dreadnaughts :(
- basicly, unless I mention it as a kit above or below - it's not getting any update / remake / new model

Stalker / Hunter
- the rumored dual-kit AA tank
- lots of new parts, side armor is massive and has some kind of pistons that seem to be pinning it to the ground
- front plate is also different from other vehicles on Rhino-chassis: Stalker / Hunter has one that looks a bit Heresy-era with a "bumper" that looks similarly to the one Landspeeder has (that belt-of-cubes bumper thing)

- Stalker is the one with dual 3-barrel autocannon-like guns, it also has a nice radar dish, really badass look
- it's described as rapid-firing AA (guess it's SM version of IG Hydra)
- now here's big thing: it's not twin-link! those are TWO SEPARATE guns that are mentioned to be able to shoot at TWO SEPARATE targets

- Hunter is the one that looks like that vintage SM Hunter tank - one massive AA turret barrel
- shoots "Skyspear Rockets" but no details on special rules here

Centurion Devastator Squad / Centurion Assault Squad
- the "Big Suits" everyone is talking about, apparently they are this release's big spotlight
- Devastators are Heavy Support (duh!) and Assaults are... Fast Attack (what did you expect?)
- come in plastic kits, 3 models per box
- they really look like if the exoskelton is worn ON the Power Armour - their heads look super tiny
- they remind me more of power loader that Ripley piloted in Aliens movie than "child of contemptor and dread" as someone described
- they all seem to have same weapon in each hand and something mounted on the chest
- the Devastator options displayed contained Lascannons and Heavy Bolters
- the Assault options were Breaching Drills (like that arm FW's Siege Dread has) with Stormbolters(?) attached, no other arm option shown
- the "chest weapon" apparently gave us choice of : frag lanuchers, mini-hurricane bolter (?!) and some rockets (chest mounted Typhoon ML?)
- it will take some time getting used to those models on battlefield but with their bulky simplicity they will surely be canon part of fluff in few years


That's all I remember. Hope it will give you some idea / clear some things up
Cheers!

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/no-longer-rumors-here-is-space-marine.html

Oh dear god apparently Cruddace has written the book.

My mistake.

$220 for 39 models...

And the new tactical set better be damn pretty if they are upping the price to $4 per model.

Now let's just hope that Assault Marines are worth taking.

Great write up Dexter. Thanks for the info!

Wauv. Selling my liver as we speak.

And i am ditching food next month, could stand to loose a few pounds anyways...

But Cruddace as author? I have a baaaad feeling about this.

ClockworkZion wrote:
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/08/space-marine-large-walker-debunked-and.html

I doubt it was the FW model but the Centurian's green if anything was seen at all. Either way, no Space Marine MC!

Oh look, Natfka debunks himself. lol

This lack of pictures is driving me crazy!

I have heard nothing but bad things about this guy. Has he written Anything codex wise that was good I could use to get a idea on his writing? I had the Nids' codex and..ugh.. I'm not dropping a Ton of money on it if it's Nids' good. Also, Any info on the supplement at all? (or am I just blind)

 Arrathon wrote:
I have heard nothing but bad things about this guy. Has he written Anything codex wise that was good I could use to get a idea on his writing? I had the Nids' codex and..ugh.. I'm not dropping a Ton of money on it if it's Nids' good. Also, Any info on the supplement at all? (or am I just blind)

Imperial Guard. People hate it but it has held up.

I'm starting to regret my 4000+ points of Blood Ravens since I won't be able to join in the founding chapters-festivities.

Dat devastator and assault marine price...3 models? Unless they severely tweak the way those units work that is a huuuuuge ripoff.

$35 bucks for 5 metal models didn't seem too bad for sternguards and vanguards...but this...ugh.

I know I know, generic gw whining,,.i haven't purchased anything in months though, my household income is close to 100k a year with no kids, and I still can't get myself to buy anymore. It's sad because I used to love this hobby and picking up new things.

Also cruddace, as a guy with a tyranid army, that worries me.

BrotherVord wrote:
Dat devastator and assault marine price...3 models? Unless they severely tweak the way those units work that is a huuuuuge ripoff.

They are allegedly Centurions. I.e. Bigger than termy armor with huge guns. Think Crisis Suit size.

One positive is that while there is infinite possibility for a feth over, SM are so firmly established, and it seems are going to have so many options that the odds are there will be enough to make solid lists, even if some of it sucks.

Also, and I'm totally open to being corrected in this, haven't Cruddace's last few books for Fantasy been pretty decent?

Do we know if the jump packs in the vanguard vets kit will have seams still ? Sounds like the kit might be too expensive and blingy to use as ASM but I wonder if they will release them as bitz.

LegioX217 wrote:
Do we know if the jump packs in the vanguard vets kit will have seams still ? Sounds like the kit might be too expensive and blingy to use as ASM but I wonder if they will release them as bitz.

Two things: One, that first question is WAAAAY specific at this point. Two, it is highly unlikely that they will release one sprue from the kit as bits as they rarely do that ever, let alone nowadays.

Let me be the next to chime in and start worrying if the name "Cruddace" is under the authour... hopefully I'm wrong, but I wouldn't put any preorders down for the new models until I get the Codex in my hands... (please let Kelly write the next Space Wolves book GW... )

I think we can go with the trend in 6th edition that the books have over all been very good/an improvement and I don't see it stopping now.

Also this is their money maker book, if any book is going to get extra attention, it is going to be this one.

Also if it has half of the additional rules/fluff that are rumored it will be worth the extra 8 bucks(personally I have never had a problem with the price as much, I use the book for 5+ years, after buying text books per semester with a gakky trade in value I really dont have a problem)

I can't see Cruddace screwing up Marines; there's enough of a precedent set already that the worst any author could really do is make the new units kind of meh, or change the cost on something too much. There's an established price point from Dark Angels for stuff like Rhinos and Marines, so I think we'll be alright. The new models sound ace, make me wish I wasn't already so busy with my Dark Angels!

Didn't Cruddace write the new WoC book? It was fairly decent.

He wrote the Sister of Battle WD 'dex, though. We all know how that went.

I hope SM get special banners like DA did, as it would be another reason to use a different 'dex for my BA.

Lucarikx

 Lucarikx wrote:
He wrote the Sister of Battle WD 'dex. We all know how that went.

Rather well. SoB codex is better off than Tyranids.

 pretre wrote:

 Lucarikx wrote:
He wrote the Sister of Battle WD 'dex. We all know how that went.

Rather well. SoB codex is better off than Tyranids.

Quite. He's guilty of some sins in the past, but my impression (and it isn't any more than that, I don't play any of his books, at least until this one) is he's been on an upward curve quality wise.

I doubt the writers simply ignore the Internet in the same way their employers seem to, if he cares about what he does he will no doubt be aware of the dominant opinion of his work and will make an effort to improve. Well, frankly, if he's any sort of professional he will be doing that regardless, anyone who takes their career seriously should always be striving to be better at it.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
(please let Kelly write the next Space Wolves book GW... )

can I get a woff woff on that brothers (I actually dont mind cruddance, its just that kelly is so good)

anyway, there has been a lot of talk about what they get, but we have not heard anything about spell decks yet. do people believe all marines get the same or will they give different to different factions in the rulebook?

Didn't someone say 'Centurions' will be on... 60mm bases?!?

Can't wait for the pictures... it can't be long now!

As a BA codex user I'm really only concerned with the new kits and from the descriptions on the previous pages I'm cautiously excited by the kits, but I don't know that I'll want to buy them whole or just buy a few of the cool bits online, eg. older armour marks.

As I'm about to make an all Mk. 6 assault squad the prospect of different running legs in the Vanguard couldn't be more perfectly timed.

Any clue on the LotD?

I don'tthink you need to worry about it being Cruddace, the Sisters codex is actually pretty good despite what people think...

Quite excited to see the new kits, I'lll certainly b pickig up a plastic sternguard kit for my BAs

D

Well, for $30, the Librarian better come with a Jump Pack

Why are Black Templars being rolled into the Space Marine codex? They do not follow the Codex Astartes at all.

 MetalOxide wrote:
Why are Black Templars being rolled into the Space Marine codex? They do not follow the Codex Astartes at all.

Yes you do now deal with it.





WHEN ARE THE PICTURES COMING!!!

I guess this confirms why there was no across the board price increase this year. It's going to be higher prices on new releases instead. Good for everyone not playing the latest release, but for a large portion of GW's customers where something from this release is part of their army, then we have a price increase.

Has either the UK or the Canadian prices been confirmed yet? Or the EU or Australian?

I'm glad the tac squad didn't go to 5 figures. The centurions sound neat but we'll have to wait to see what they look like. I hope the power armour is nearly completely covered and we don't have a dreadknight baby carrier look.

Someone hold me and tell me its gonna be ok, j..j..just hold me and tell me we are still the templars.

 captain collius wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:
Why are Black Templars being rolled into the Space Marine codex? They do not follow the Codex Astartes at all.

Yes you do now deal with it.





WHEN ARE THE PICTURES COMING!!!

Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels might as well be rolled into the Space Marine codex as well.

 MetalOxide wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:
Why are Black Templars being rolled into the Space Marine codex? They do not follow the Codex Astartes at all.

Yes you do now deal with it.





WHEN ARE THE PICTURES COMING!!!

Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels might as well be rolled into the Space Marine codex as well.

Reality disagrees.

Also tell me when BT pulls in 1/4 of the sales of any of those armies.

 unmercifulconker wrote:
Someone hold me and tell me its gonna be ok, j..j..just hold me and tell me we are still the templars.

If you read the info on the previous page it says you're still retaining Crudsader Squads, Neophytes, Emperors Champion etc. What else do you need?

So, how badly are assault Termies gonna get nerfed? Just 5 extra points for the TH/SS like in the DA codex, or even more points this time?

I'd imagine +5 points for TH/SS, like Dark Angels and (if I recall correctly) Blood Angels.

Ugh... Looks at my empty wallet already.

Looks like the Centurion Devastators could be a day one buy for me. Though it'd be nice if we could get meltaguns for the assault version and use them as mini-Ironclads.

Sternguard kit sounds worth buying just for the conversion opportunity. Could probably make a few different characters out of it...

The 'counts as' possibilities with this codex seem very nice indeed!

I really hope Vulcan keeps his rules, I've always wanted to start a Salamander Army.

60mm bases?...... 60mm! that's a big ass base for a squad to have each?

 pretre wrote:

 Lucarikx wrote:
He wrote the Sister of Battle WD 'dex. We all know how that went.

Rather well. SoB codex is better off than Tyranids.

That's like saying having your kneecaps shattered is better than being set on fire.

 nerdfest09 wrote:
60mm bases?...... 60mm! that's a big ass base for a squad to have each?

Bloodcrushers, plague flies (I believe) and beasts of Nurgle are on 60mm.