They are permanent, only Ultra and Raven Guard have a once per game thing

Y'all realize that, because BT's ARE rolled in, the only other option GW probably would have considered was just NOTHING, right? Like, BT's would be at SoB level or lower. They would never have got their own book. Enjoy this, enjoy your supplement, and try enjoying life for once.

ClockworkZion wrote:

They NEVER had an option for Librarians.

I'm not sure if we're trading sarcasm here or not...

For the record, I knew they never had Libbies.

 Leth wrote:
Khan makes all bike squads troops as long as they are at least 5

Godammit, now I have to paint the whole of the bike list section of my Raven Guard army white to make it legal!?!!?!!

 Yodhrin wrote:
About the podcast I have only one comment: I regret not waiting to read Zion's roundup, because I have never listened to such a bunch of smug self-congratulatory trolls before in my life.

Who spend a lot of time chatting about nonsense and tangenting too.

I think I have it worse than the guys who are just listening because I keep backing it up to try and get it all verbatim.

Khan scares the hell out of me in a all bike army.

Also I know IH chapter tactics apply to their vehicles but if white scars apply to land speeders......that is some awesome stuff.

ClockworkZion wrote:

+ Crusader Squad keeps Land Raider Crusader as a Dedicated Transport

What about other squads, any word on them? After all basically all squads except assault squad can have LRC as dedicated in the current codex.

Here's the (rough) looking roll-up:

Strikeforce is the replacement for the Battleforce but instead a "starter army" box built around a theme of some kind. So more of starter box than the current Battleforce is. Every army will get one eventually that will be named after something relevant to that army (example: Wraithhost for Eldar).

240 Points for 3 Centurions with Grav-Cannons/Grav-Amps and Hurricane Bolters. 60 point upgrade for Grav-Cannon/Grav-Amps.

Assault Centurions have Move Through Cover

"Chapter Tactics I got to use that one turn" < Ultramarines CT

Codex: Space Marines is largely in line with Codex: Dark Angels points wise.

176 Pages in their copy of the codex (same as rumored)

Hunter has "Savant-Lock". When shooting at a flyer you put a marker on it for each miss. The markers stay on the flyer until it leaves the table or is destroyed. At the beginning of every friendly shooting phase you roll for those markers. On a 5 or a 6 that missle hits.

Artwook is nice, and book is Space Marines more in a general form. More updated fluff, not just the rehashed fluff.

Some of the classic Black and White was colored, but a lot of new art too.

Book is in sections for each chapter and a large number of the Successor Chapters to help players know who should be using what rules.

Salamanders don't really have any successor chapters because their chapter had suffered a large number of casualties so they have a larger number of Marines in their chapter.

"Equivilant to Forge World background" in terms of fluff.

Forgeworld fluff included in the codex.


Warlord Traits - Only Chart for the Codex
1. Angel of Death - Warlord and his unit have the Fear special rule.
2. Imperium Sword - One use only. Declare that your Warlord is using this at the start of one of your assualt phases. The Warlord and his unit have the Furious Charge special rule until the end of the turn. (Sicarius has this one!)
3. Storm of Fire - One use only. Declare that your Warlord is using this at the start of one of your shooting phases. For the duration of that phase a single frienly unit from Codex: Space Marines may re-roll any failed to-hit rolls.
4. Rites of War - When taking morale tests friendly units from Codex: Space Marines within 12" of the Warlord use his characteristic instead of their own.
5. Iron Resolve - When determining your assault results add +1 to your total if the Warlord is locked in that combat.
6. Champion of Humanity - If your Warlord causes the enemy Warlord to be removed from play in a challenge he scores D3 extra victory points in addition in the usual amount of points given for slaying the enemy Warlord in this scenario. Note that killing the enemy Warlord in a sweeping advance does not reward these extra victory points.


Chapter Tactics

Successor Chapters - You use whatever chapter tactics of your parent chapter is. The ONLY Exception is the Black Templar.

Homebrew - You can pick any tactic you want and use the Special Characters of that chapter. Those characters have to use the same Chapter Tactics as the same Chapter their from.

Allies - "A Space Marine Detachment that has one set of Chapter Tactics MAY ally with another Space Marine Detachment with a different set of Chapter Tactics, Ultramarines and Raven Guard for example. For purposes of the Allies rules these allies are treated as being from two different codexes and are treated as Battle Brothers. Note that you may field models from two different chapters that have the same Chapter Tactics, such as Ultramariens and Praetors of Orpheus in the same detachment. These chapters are so closely affiliated that they count as a single army on the battlefield."

Ultramarines - Combat Doctrine: This detachment can utilize each of the following combat doctrines once per game. To do so at the start of your turn you state which combat doctrine you wish to use, if any, until the start of your next turn. You can only use one combat doctrine per turn.
Tactical: Units in this detachment re-roll ones while shooting, unless they're tactical marines and they re-roll all failed to hit rolls in the shooting phase.
Assault: Units in this detachment can re-roll their charge range. Assault squads, bikes, or attack bikes instead have the fleet rule.
Devastator: Units in this detachment may re-rolls to-hit on snap shots, including overwatch shots, in addition models in this detachment's Devastator squads have the relentless unless they disembarked from a transport in their movement phase.

White Scars - BOTH RULES ALL THE TIME
Born in the Saddle: Models in this detachment with the Bike Unit Type automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests, and recieve a +1 to their Jink Cover Saves. In addition add 1 to their Strength when resolving their Hammer of Wrath hits.
Fight on the Move: Models in this Detachment have the Hit and Run Special Rule. Note that this does not include models in Terminator Armor, Devastator Centurions or Assault Centurions.

Imperial Fists - BOTH RULES ALL THE TIME
Bolter Drill - Models in this detachment may re-roll all to-hit rolls of 1 made with a bolt pistol, boltgun, stormbolter, heavy bolters, or combi-weapons that are firing as boltguns. This rule does not apply to Helfire, Kraken, Vengence or Dragonfire rounds.
Siegemasters - Models in this detachment in Devastator squads and Centurion Devastator squads have the Tank Hunter special rule and add +1 when rolling on the building damage table.

Black Templars - BOTH RULES ALL TIME
Accept Any Challenges, No Matter the Odds: When engaged in a challenge, Black Templar Characters reroll all failed to-hit rolls, and have the Rending Special Rule.
Crusaders: Black Templars have the Crusader and Adamantium Will Special Rules. In addition Black Templars have access to a special unit called a Crusader Squad.

Iron Hands - BOTH RULES ALL THE TIME
The Flesh is Weak: Models in this detachment have the Feel no Pain on a 6+ Special Rule. Note that if they benefit from more than one instance of Feel no Pain they use the best version available.
Machine Empathy: All vehicles and characters in this detachment have the It Will Not Die special rule even though vehicles do not have Chapter Tactic special rules. Furthermore, Techmarines and Masters of the Forge in this detachment add +1 to their Blessing of the Omnissiah rolls.

Salamanders - BOTH RULES ALL THE TIME
Flamecraft: Models in this detachment can re-roll their saving throws against wounds caused by flamer weapons as defined by the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Furthermore, flame weapons used by models in this detachment re-roll failed to-wound rolls and armor penetration rolls that don't cause a glancing or a penetrating hit.
Master Astisan: During the army selection each character in this detachment may upgrade on of his weapons, even one they have purchased as an upgrade, to have the Mastercrafted Special Rule at no additional cost.

Raven Guard - BOTH RULES ALL THE TIME
Strike from the Shadows: Models in this detachment have the Scout Special Rule. In addition, on the first game turn, models in this detachment have the Stealth Special Rule. Note that units that include models with the Bulky or Very Bulky Special Rules do not benefit from either rule.
Wings of Deliverance: Jump Infantry Models in this detachment may use their Jump Packs in both the movement and assault phases of the same turn. Futhermore, they must re-roll all failed to-wound rolls caused by their Hammer of Wrath hits.

COUNT AS: If you want to use Vulkan in a Ultramarines army you have to play use the Salamander Chapter Tactics. So you CAN do "count-as" but you lock yourself into their Chapter Tactics.

Black Templars: + Gains / - Losses
- No More Vows
- No More Marshalls or Castellans
- No More Terminator Command Squads
- No More Master of Sanctity/Reclessiarchy
- Sword Brethren are no longer units
- No More 2 Heavy Weapons in a 5 man Terminator Squad
- No More special rule upgrades (Tank Hunter, ect)
- No More Storm Shields on Assault Squads
- No More extra power weapons in bike squad
- No More Fearless in Close Combat
- No More Righteous Zeal
- Some Flavor
- Most Heavy Weapons +5 more
- No More Power of the Machine Spirt upgrade

+ Chapter Master and Captains
+ Honor Guard
+ Regular Chaplains
+ Master of the Forge
+ Tactical Squads
+ Scout Squads
+ Land Speeder Storm
+ Vanguard
+ Sternguard
+ Ironclad Dreadnoughts
+ Centurions (Assault and Devastator)
+ Scout Bikes
+ Devastators
+ Whirlwinds
+ Hunter
+ Stalker
+ Land Raider Redeemer
+ Crusader Squad keeps Land Raider Crusader as a Dedicated Transport
+ Initiates are 5 points cheaper (counting Frag and Krak Grenade upgrades)
+ Sword Brother option in Crusader Squad
+ Keep Initiate Power Weapon/Fist option
+ Neophyte leadership increased to Ld 8
+ Neophyte Shotguns S4
+ Crusader Squad keeps Pistol and Chainsword option
+ Crusader Squad Organization stays the same


Special Characters:
Marneus Calgar:
- 275 Points
- Artificer Armor standard (2+)
- God of War: May use a single Combat Doctrine twice per game
- Titanic Might: Re-rolls all armor penetrating hits in close combat. He may reroll glancing hits to attempt to get a penetrating hit. Must accept the second roll even if it is worse than the first.
- Warlord Trait: Rolls 3 times on the Warlord Table, rerolling doubles, and chooses a single Warlord Trait.
- Weapons and Ammo still the same. Terminator Armor still has Frag and Krak Grenades. Retain his Teleport Homer.
- Terminator Armor is 10 points and doesn't prevent sweeping advances.


Captain Cato Sicarius:
- 185 points
- Surprise Attack: +1 to Reserve Rolls
- Weapons still the same
- Battle-forged Heros: Pick a Tactical Squad and they gain Counter-Attack, Infiltrate or Scout.
- May still use the Coup-de-Grace with his sword.
- Warlord Trait: Rites of Battle

Tigirius:
- 165 points
- +1 Wound
- Master Psyker: May re-roll any or all of his rolls to choose which powers he knows. He has access to all the powers.
- ML3
- Hood of Hellfire: Psychic Hood that allows you to re-roll failed psychic tests
- Rod of Tigiruis: Same as before with the addition of Soulblaze
- Gift of Prescience: If your army contains Tigirius you may choose to re-roll reserves and apply the result to units of the same attachement.
- Warlord Trait: Storm of Fire

Cassius:
- Zealot
- All equipment the same
- Warlord Trait: Angel of Death

Telion:
- Chapter Tactics Ultramarines
- Same points cost
- Same rules

Sergeant Chronus:
- -20 points
- +1LD
- His vehicle gains It Will not Die

Khan:
- -35 points (bike is still 20 point upgrade)
- Bike does D3 Hammer of Wrath hits
- Furious Charge
- If Khan is your warlord friendly models with the Chapter Tactics White Scars special rule that are bikes or have dedicated transports have the Scout special rule.
- Khan makes all bike squads who are 5 bikes or more count as troop choices.
- Warlord Trait: Champion of Humanity

Vulkan:
- The Forgefather: If Vulkan is your warlord, all meltas, multi-meltas and combi-meltas in this detachment become twin-linked.
- Lost Digital Weapons
- Warlord Trait: Iron Resolve

Shrike:
- 185 points
- Stealth
- Before deploying Shrike can only join a Jump Infantry unit
- Lost Fleet
- Weapons stayed the same
- Warlord Trait: Angel of Death

Lysander:
- +30 Points
- No more Bolter Defenses
- Icon of Obstinancey: All models with the Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics re-roll failed morale and pinning checks
- Same wargear
Warlord Trait: Champion of Humanity

Chapter Master Pedro Kantor:
- +1 Attack
- Oath of Rynn: If Chapter Master Kantor is your Warlord all models in Crimson Fist detachments have the Preferred Enemy (Orks) Special Rule. Furthermore, all such models within 12" of Kantor have +1 Attack while he lives. This bonus does not affector Kantor, and is not cimulative with the similar bonuse that the Chapter Banner gives.
- Still has Hold the Line: Crimson Fist Sternguard Veterans are scoring
- Same Wargear and points
- Warlord Trait: Iron Resolve

Helbrect:
- 180 points
- +1 WS
- Rites of Valor - Gone
- Crusade of Wrath: Once per game, during the Assualt Phase, all models with the Black Templar Chapter Tactics gain Hatred and Fleet until the end of the phase.
- Sword of the High Marshalls is the same
- Legacy of Dorn (+D3 attack on the charge) same

Grimaldus:
- 185 Points
- -1 BS
- +1 Wound
- -1 Attack
- It will Not Die (replaced "Only in Death Does Duty End"
- Zealot
- Relics of Hellsreach: Any Black Templar of a servitor in 6" gains a 6++ Invunerable save.
- Unmatched Zeal: Black Templar models within of 6" of Chaplain of Grimaldus have the Zealot special rule.

Emperor's Champion:
- Uses HQ Slot
- 140 Points
- 2+/4++
- Black Sword: AP2, Mastercrafted
- Combat Stances:
Smite the Unclean - +2 Strength, Black Sword is two-handed and unwieldy
Slay the Heretic - Rolls of 6s to wound are Instant Death
- Bolt Pistol gives extra attack (unless using Smite the Unclean)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tvih wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

+ Crusader Squad keeps Land Raider Crusader as a Dedicated Transport

What about other squads, any word on them? After all basically all squads except assault squad can have LRC as dedicated in the current codex.

They didn't say. I'm going to ask them on Facebook.

I like how UM's can only use each thing once per game seems more balanced now that we have more info!

Raven Guard - BOTH RULES ALL THE TIME
Strike from the Shadows: Models in this detachment have the Scout Special Rule. In addition, on the first game turn, models in this detachment have the Stealth Special Rule. Note that units that include models with the Bulky or Very Bulky Special Rules do not benefit from either rule.
Wings of Deliverance: Jump Infantry Models in this detachment may use their Jump Packs in both the movement and assault phases of the same turn. Futhermore, they must re-roll all failed to-wound rolls caused by their Hammer of Wrath hits.

Wait what.. Don't Jump Infantry have that Bulky rule?
So they want you to use Jump Packs, but you don't get Stealth in the first turn.

Raven Guard have Scout?

Holy outflanking everything!!

The Hunter sounds nifty now. It may only have one shot, but even if that shot misses there's a good chance it will goad your opponent into flying off the board anyway, meaning you still have negated that flyer for a turn.

Looking at the RG rules...

Crusaders are 11pts a pop? Hello Black Tide! Sadly, that's one of the only things I'm happy about with this. I don't see much gain for them (if I wanted to play codex: marines, I would) but there's a lot of loss.

Raven Guard chapter tactics look very interesting, but...*everything* gets scout? Wow.

Edit: Doesn't apply to bulky/very bulky units, but still

Kangodo wrote:
I like how UM's can only use each thing once per game seems more balanced now that we have more info!

Raven Guard - BOTH RULES ALL THE TIME
Strike from the Shadows: Models in this detachment have the Scout Special Rule. In addition, on the first game turn, models in this detachment have the Stealth Special Rule. Note that units that include models with the Bulky or Very Bulky Special Rules do not benefit from either rule.
Wings of Deliverance: Jump Infantry Models in this detachment may use their Jump Packs in both the movement and assault phases of the same turn. Futhermore, they must re-roll all failed to-wound rolls caused by their Hammer of Wrath hits.

Wait what.. Don't Jump Infantry have that Bulky rule?
So they want you to use Jump Packs, but you don't get Stealth in the first turn.

I think it makes sense fluff and tactics wise...kinda. And I think it gives a nice army-wide boost and specialization to JP troops, and then everything else.

I understand not wanting to have jump packs with scout, they are getting a big boost to their threat range with being able to use jump packs in movement and assault. This might also make non-JP assault option more of an option at times. Vanguard vets seem like they got a nice drop in points without jump-packs, so giving them some specialist weapons and letting them Scout might be worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaerros wrote:
Raven Guard chapter tactics look very interesting, but...*everything* gets scout? Wow.

Except Jump Packs, Terminators, Bikes, and the fancy new big guys. What else has Bulky or Very Bulky?

Also CT doesn't apply to vehicles.

But Sternguard in a Razorback...

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Crusaders are 11pts a pop? Hello Black Tide! Sadly, that's one of the only things I'm happy about with this. I don't see much gain for them (if I wanted to play codex: marines, I would) but there's a lot of loss.

No, they're 14 just like tacticals. As it says, counting frag+krak, which in the current codex makes an initiate cost 19. 19-5=14.

 tvih wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Crusaders are 11pts a pop? Hello Black Tide! Sadly, that's one of the only things I'm happy about with this. I don't see much gain for them (if I wanted to play codex: marines, I would) but there's a lot of loss.

No, they're 14 just like tacticals. As it says, counting frag+krak, which in the current codex makes an initiate cost 19. 19-5=14.

Counting frag and krak means including frag and krak in the listed points already.

EDIT: Corrected later, ignore this.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Crusaders are 11pts a pop? Hello Black Tide! Sadly, that's one of the only things I'm happy about with this. I don't see much gain for them (if I wanted to play codex: marines, I would) but there's a lot of loss.

No, 14 points, but they come standard with Frag&Krak grenades which were an upgrade that took them up to 19ppm before.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Crusaders are 11pts a pop? Hello Black Tide! Sadly, that's one of the only things I'm happy about with this. I don't see much gain for them (if I wanted to play codex: marines, I would) but there's a lot of loss.

No, they're 14 points a pop. They WERE 19 points if you took both Frag and Krak and now have a 5 point discount from that. I did specify that when I said it.

Are neophytes still 10 pts each or are they cheaper now?

The RG thing also incentivizes deep striking with your assault marines, which makes sense. They don't get stealth or scout, so don't start on the table at all, I guess! Unless you've got a real bad-ass to lead you in close, that is.

Quick question. Seeing that the current Space Marines codex is till up for sale at GW's website, if somebody completely new to the game decides to buy the codex now then realizes sometime later this week that a new one is coming out, will they be able to return it to GW and exchange?

For credit, if its in as new condition, in the UK, yes, by law.

Lookin like Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, White Scars, and Salamanders got the best of the traits.

Interesting. Thanks.

 tomjoad wrote:
The RG thing also incentivizes deep striking with your assault marines, which makes sense. They don't get stealth or scout, so don't start on the table at all, I guess! Unless you've got a real bad-ass to lead you in close, that is.

While prob not über competitive, I am considering 3 Stormtalons and a pair of Stomrravens in a list, so I might put some ASM in the big birds for a real air cav feel!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 spacewolf407 wrote:
Interesting. Thanks.

You'd need proof of purchase too, though that doesn't have to be, as is commonly believed, a receipt, a bank or credit card statement showing the transaction is also valid, but you may struggle with some stores to convince them.

 Chaplain Pallantide wrote:
Are neophytes still 10 pts each or are they cheaper now?

I assume they cost the same as the scouts, who are now 11 points each.

Wow, Khan might turn into one of the most used characters. White Scars CT's are solid and he makes bikes troops and gives you scout on all your dedicated transport based units....

***Edit***

Scouts are cheaper than the DA version?

 azreal13 wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:
The RG thing also incentivizes deep striking with your assault marines, which makes sense. They don't get stealth or scout, so don't start on the table at all, I guess! Unless you've got a real bad-ass to lead you in close, that is.

While prob not über competitive, I am considering 3 Stormtalons and a pair of Stomrravens in a list, so I might put some ASM in the big birds for a real air cav feel!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 spacewolf407 wrote:
Interesting. Thanks.

You'd need proof of purchase too, though that doesn't have to be, as is commonly believed, a receipt, a bank or credit card statement showing the transaction is also valid, but you may struggle with some stores to convince them.

There's nothing about assault marines as troops is there? Even if there is, I'd advise against ever putting marines in a Raven...but, that's a topic for another day.

With the apparent adjustment of Tac squads to one special/heavy per 5 man team, has the use of multiple baby Dev squads cropped up in one of the pages I haven't really read properly?

Wow, 4 of you correcting me. Lol. I feel loved. Zion, there's 152 pages: I missed you specifying 14, I just saw "down 5", and their old cost was 16, so...I assumed 11. 14 doesn't exactly thrill me: losing extra toys on bikes kills the Space Knight feel they had. No rage kills the crazy zealot feel of them. The special characters feel half assed, the Champion feels like they took the most expensive option he had away that boosted the whole army, but kept his cost. I'll still buy the book, and I hate sounding like I'm a downer, I really do guys. But the chapter I finally decided upon just ended up feeling half assed. I'm still gonna try to make the best of it.

Using Tigurius got a lot more attractive. Especially if he has three wounds. And permanent access to Storm of Fire! That's pretty damn good, too!

Grav Amp / Cannon being a 20pt upgrade wasn't really surprising. Still might be decent, considering the amount of fire it squishes out.

EDIT: Taking a Khan List is kind of tempting, especially looking at how much betters bikes may have just gotten. Dang.

 tomjoad wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 tomjoad wrote:
The RG thing also incentivizes deep striking with your assault marines, which makes sense. They don't get stealth or scout, so don't start on the table at all, I guess! Unless you've got a real bad-ass to lead you in close, that is.

While prob not über competitive, I am considering 3 Stormtalons and a pair of Stomrravens in a list, so I might put some ASM in the big birds for a real air cav feel!

There's nothing about assault marines as troops is there? Even if there is, I'd advise against ever putting marines in a Raven...but, that's a topic for another day.

I use Ravens a lot, as I started my Raven Guard using the BA dex, so have had them for a while. There's no harm in using the transport feature, but you make dam sure you overfly where you want them and drop them first turn. Interceptor doesn't trigger until the end of the move phase, so it is relatively low risk. I've even done it with a Dread a time or two

 Hulksmash wrote:
Wow, Khan might turn into one of the most used characters. White Scars CT's are solid and he makes bikes troops and gives you scout on all your dedicated transport based units....

***Edit***

Scouts are cheaper than the DA version?

Rumor had it in the past that they went down 2 points and they currently cost 13. But maybe that's wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tomjoad wrote:
[There's nothing about assault marines as troops is there? Even if there is, I'd advise against ever putting marines in a Raven...but, that's a topic for another day.

No, no Assault Marines as troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Wow, 4 of you correcting me. Lol. I feel loved. Zion, there's 152 pages: I missed you specifying 14, I just saw "down 5", and their old cost was 16, so...I assumed 11. 14 doesn't exactly thrill me: losing extra toys on bikes kills the Space Knight feel they had. No rage kills the crazy zealot feel of them. The special characters feel half assed, the Champion feels like they took the most expensive option he had away that boosted the whole army, but kept his cost. I'll still buy the book, and I hate sounding like I'm a downer, I really do guys. But the chapter I finally decided upon just ended up feeling half assed. I'm still gonna try to make the best of it.

I don't think you should blame this codex for taking things that were doomed to be lost. There was a LOT about the Templars that was just way out of step with the rest of the game and now it's gone, just like it would have been if it was full codex for them.

I don't think Templars are ruined forever (unlike parts of the Internet have claimed) just that they fit the game a little differently than before. When people are already bringing all shooty Templar lists of 10 men in a Rhino and going to ground to keep from Zealing off the objectives the army was already a bit out of wack. At least now they're not being punished when you try and play the mission.

Plus with the points decreases Black Tide is cheaper if you want to go that route.

The Champion is likely paying that 50 points for his AP2 sword, the extra attack he can get from his Bolt Pistol, his combat stances, and his 4++ he gets all the time now. That's just a guess.

 tomjoad wrote:
There's nothing about assault marines as troops is there? Even if there is, I'd advise against ever putting marines in a Raven...but, that's a topic for another day.

Korvydae makes them troops.
You only need 1 unit of Scouts, which isn't such a bad thing now they can get 2+ cover for the first turn if you put them in Ruins.

Yep, especially since it looks like camo cloaks remain +1 cover save instead of just stealth.

I will be interested in seeing how quickly forgeworld puts out the erratas updating the space marine characters.

It would be awesome if they almost have them ready to go.

I am still of the opinion that they should work more closely together and have all the FW-stuff in the supplements and codices
But let's see how it goes!

 azreal13 wrote:

While prob not über competitive, I am considering 3 Stormtalons and a pair of Stomrravens in a list, so I might put some ASM in the big birds for a real air cav feel!

How will you get any ASM if you fill your fast attack up with Stormtalons? Are you using Korvidae or just playing 2000+ pt games?

Ah, yeah.

Still thinking like a Blood Angel!

 Leth wrote:
Yep, especially since it looks like camo cloaks remain +1 cover save instead of just stealth.

I will be interested in seeing how quickly forgeworld puts out the erratas updating the space marine characters.

It would be awesome if they almost have them ready to go.

Forgeworld had a pretty quick turn around when 6th came out, so I imagine the delay wouldn't be too long.

Bigger question is.. what in the world are those assault marines going to do? Even in BA with access to melta guns... they're just depressingly bad.

RG assault marines is going to be something people learn quickly is still awful.. why? Because you're still using Assault marines which haven't been useful since 2005.

 Kirasu wrote:
Bigger question is.. what in the world are those assault marines going to do? Even in BA with access to melta guns... they're just depressingly bad.

RG assault marines is going to be something people learn quickly is still awful.. why? Because you're still using Assault marines which haven't been useful since 2005.

Says you. Any player determined enough to use them will find a way to employ them in their meta successfully. That goes for any unit really.

 Kirasu wrote:
Bigger question is.. what in the world are those assault marines going to do? Even in BA with access to melta guns... they're just depressingly bad.

RG assault marines is going to be something people learn quickly is still awful.. why? Because you're still using Assault marines which haven't been useful since 2005.

I have doing well with them, but most of meta is about fluff rather than compedative

With my raven guard (that are actually raven guard ) I throw THSS termies with a chaplain in the Raven with a Talon to escort it on.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Bigger question is.. what in the world are those assault marines going to do? Even in BA with access to melta guns... they're just depressingly bad.

RG assault marines is going to be something people learn quickly is still awful.. why? Because you're still using Assault marines which haven't been useful since 2005.

Says you. Any player determined enough to use them will find a way to employ them in their meta successfully. That goes for any unit really.

Being determined doesn't equal winning. A better player can use poor units and beat weaker players and yes meta matters. However, assault marines do not fill any meta category that I'm aware of that other units can't do much better.

Show me a determined Mutilator player and I'll show you someone who loses every single game or plays against equally awful armies. I do not see how being determined matters one bit when you're using bad units.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Bigger question is.. what in the world are those assault marines going to do? Even in BA with access to melta guns... they're just depressingly bad.

RG assault marines is going to be something people learn quickly is still awful.. why? Because you're still using Assault marines which haven't been useful since 2005.

Says you. Any player determined enough to use them will find a way to employ them in their meta successfully. That goes for any unit really.

Nah, he's right.

Even using the BA dex, so giving them FNP, FC and special weapons, they still lack durability or damage output unless they're bullying something (and not all lists bring something they can bully)

With switching to the Codex book, and the increased flexibility of Tac Squads and the increased options with scouts, I won't miss them, but my lists won't be quite as fluffy.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Bigger question is.. what in the world are those assault marines going to do? Even in BA with access to melta guns... they're just depressingly bad.

RG assault marines is going to be something people learn quickly is still awful.. why? Because you're still using Assault marines which haven't been useful since 2005.

I have doing well with them, but most of meta is about fluff rather than compedative

Wait, there was a time when Vanilla ASM were actually useful? Explain please!

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Yep, especially since it looks like camo cloaks remain +1 cover save instead of just stealth.

I will be interested in seeing how quickly forgeworld puts out the erratas updating the space marine characters.

It would be awesome if they almost have them ready to go.

Forgeworld had a pretty quick turn around when 6th came out, so I imagine the delay wouldn't be too long.

I'm really interested/scared to find out what they'll do with Vaylund Cal, given 40K Radio say that the Sons of Medusa are explicitly mentioned in the 'dex and use the IH Tactics. On the one hand, a monster like Cal with 6+FnP and IWND is...appealing. On the other, I've thought since I first heard these rumours that army-wide Fearless seems far more appropriate for IH than army-wide FnP(bionics should be a unit upgrade IMO), so I'd hate for him to lose that.

They are going to charge people?
The name 'ASSAULT marine' kinda gives it away.

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:
With my raven guard (that are actually raven guard ) I throw THSS termies with a chaplain in the Raven with a Talon to escort it on.

But what if you roll bad and they don't come till turn 3 or 4?
You'd be giving the game away

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Bigger question is.. what in the world are those assault marines going to do? Even in BA with access to melta guns... they're just depressingly bad.

RG assault marines is going to be something people learn quickly is still awful.. why? Because you're still using Assault marines which haven't been useful since 2005.

I have doing well with them, but most of meta is about fluff rather than compedative

Wait, there was a time when Vanilla ASM were actually useful? Explain please!

4th edition book with traits let you do Furious charge + Chaplain with lightning claws. That's about as good as it got..

 Kirasu wrote:
Because you're still using Assault marines which haven't been useful since 2005.

Ah, what? Up until 6th edition DoA lists were rocking strong at tournaments everywhere. That was 2012. So not sure where you are getting 2005 from. Sure they are crap now, but making huge exaggerations doesn't help make a point, it can however break it.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Bigger question is.. what in the world are those assault marines going to do? Even in BA with access to melta guns... they're just depressingly bad.

RG assault marines is going to be something people learn quickly is still awful.. why? Because you're still using Assault marines which haven't been useful since 2005.

I have doing well with them, but most of meta is about fluff rather than compedative

Wait, there was a time when Vanilla ASM were actually useful? Explain please!

I used them to "Assasinate" Comat Squads or even take on and tie up Ork Models. I also since the Blood Angels Codex came out been using them as Blood Angels.
Though I will be going back to Raven Guard

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Because you're still using Assault marines which haven't been useful since 2005.

Ah, what? Up until 6th edition DoA lists were rocking strong at tournaments everywhere. That was 2012. So not sure where you are getting 2005 from. Sure they are crap now, but making huge exaggerations doesn't help make a point, it can however break it.

Codex: Blood Angels != Codex: Space Marines. I was talking about just SM, as obviously Blood angel assault units were very good up until 6th ed. I was really only using BA as an example to explain that currently even BA assault marines suck and SM ones aren't better, therefore they are awful as well. The rest was purely talking about old versions of Codex: Space Marines

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Bigger question is.. what in the world are those assault marines going to do? Even in BA with access to melta guns... they're just depressingly bad.

RG assault marines is going to be something people learn quickly is still awful.. why? Because you're still using Assault marines which haven't been useful since 2005.

Says you. Any player determined enough to use them will find a way to employ them in their meta successfully. That goes for any unit really.

I'm painting Ultramarines right now specifically because my Blood Angels just aren't very good. Trust me, and trust anybody who's really tried them, assault marines are not good. Without meltas, they're boarderline useless.

 Kirasu wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Because you're still using Assault marines which haven't been useful since 2005.

Ah, what? Up until 6th edition DoA lists were rocking strong at tournaments everywhere. That was 2012. So not sure where you are getting 2005 from. Sure they are crap now, but making huge exaggerations doesn't help make a point, it can however break it.

Codex: Blood Angels != Codex: Space Marines. I was talking about just SM, as obviously Blood angel assault units were very good up until 6th ed. I was really only using BA as an example to explain that currently even BA assault marines suck and SM ones aren't better, therefore they are awful as well. The rest was purely talking about old versions of Codex: Space Marines

Except you in fact brought up BA Assault Marines as your opener. See below.

 Kirasu wrote:
Bigger question is.. what in the world are those assault marines going to do? Even in BA with access to melta guns... they're just depressingly bad.

RG assault marines is going to be something people learn quickly is still awful.. why? Because you're still using Assault marines which haven't been useful since 2005.

 Kirasu wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Bigger question is.. what in the world are those assault marines going to do? Even in BA with access to melta guns... they're just depressingly bad.

RG assault marines is going to be something people learn quickly is still awful.. why? Because you're still using Assault marines which haven't been useful since 2005.

Says you. Any player determined enough to use them will find a way to employ them in their meta successfully. That goes for any unit really.

Being determined doesn't equal winning. A better player can use poor units and beat weaker players and yes meta matters. However, assault marines do not fill any meta category that I'm aware of that other units can't do much better.

Show me a determined Mutilator player and I'll show you someone who loses every single game or plays against equally awful armies. I do not see how being determined matters one bit when you're using bad units.

In 5th Edition I was using what the Internet claimed to be the WORST assault unit in the game: Repentia. But I watched them take out a wide range and large number of things.

Just because something isn't the most optimal choice it doesn't make it worthless.

ASM aren't an Assault unit like Bloodletters or Repentia, their a skirmisher unit for finishing off weakened units or taking out Devastators who are hiding on the back of the board. Can you handle the problem differently? Sure. But it doesn't mean that you can't use ASM.

Yes, currently even in BA they are depressingly bad.

Which then went back into talking about RG assault marines, which haven't been good since 2005 (Granted 2005 is sorta an arbitrary number which I used because I know assault marines sorta sucked again once Eldar got their Falcon-Force book in 2006).

Perhaps my grammar wasn't the best, but regardless I was talking about assault marines from Codex: Sm.

Most people don't care if ASM are good or not!
The biggest 'issue' is that:
1. ASM-troops is what makes BA special.
2. A lot of BA-players have tons of ASM's.
3. The new C:SM does it better.

My 'newest' BA-list is really awesome, it has scouts, bikers, a librarian, 2 ASM and 2 tacticals (with priests, but C:SM cannot take those)
But then comes the new codex and I can build almost the exact same list, but 175 points cheaper!
Sure, I lose a 75 points FnP-bubble, but combine that with the other 175 and I have 250 points left to spend on anything I want.
Just switching codex gives me a free Land Raider!

So see, it's not about having a really effective build.
It's about another codex doing a better job at the thing I should do best.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
Bigger question is.. what in the world are those assault marines going to do? Even in BA with access to melta guns... they're just depressingly bad.

RG assault marines is going to be something people learn quickly is still awful.. why? Because you're still using Assault marines which haven't been useful since 2005.

Says you. Any player determined enough to use them will find a way to employ them in their meta successfully. That goes for any unit really.

Being determined doesn't equal winning. A better player can use poor units and beat weaker players and yes meta matters. However, assault marines do not fill any meta category that I'm aware of that other units can't do much better.

Show me a determined Mutilator player and I'll show you someone who loses every single game or plays against equally awful armies. I do not see how being determined matters one bit when you're using bad units.

In 5th Edition I was using what the Internet claimed to be the WORST assault unit in the game: Repentia. But I watched them take out a wide range and large number of things.

Just because something isn't the most optimal choice it doesn't make it worthless.

ASM aren't an Assault unit like Bloodletters or Repentia, their a skirmisher unit for finishing off weakened units or taking out Devastators who are hiding on the back of the board. Can you handle the problem differently? Sure. But it doesn't mean that you can't use ASM.

No offense to your opponents, but when someone uses the quote "worst unit in the game" to beat opponents left and right.. that usually means the opponents are not very experienced. I agree tho that ASM can do the skirmisher role, I still think they're bad at everything they do in Codex: SM, but I concede they can perform that function.

And yes there is nothing preventing you from using them. I'm just saying there are vastly better choices for every single battlefield function they can perform. If you're determined to use them, great but understand that players who get rolled by assault marines, repentia and mutilators are not the benchmark you should use.

I once beat a kid in the FIRST turn at an 'ard boyz.. It's not because I played well, it's cause he played absolutely horrible. I'd be wary to confuse unit effectiveness with poor opponent performance.

Kangodo wrote:
They are going to charge people?
The name 'ASSAULT marine' kinda gives it away.

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:
With my raven guard (that are actually raven guard ) I throw THSS termies with a chaplain in the Raven with a Talon to escort it on.

But what if you roll bad and they don't come till turn 3 or 4?
You'd be giving the game away

In my gaming group and local tournaments you're allowed to pick your warlord trait; I always take Strategic Genius

Kangodo wrote:
Most people don't care if ASM are good or not!
The biggest 'issue' is that:
1. ASM-troops is what makes BA special.
2. A lot of BA-players have tons of ASM's.
3. The new C:SM does it better.

My 'newest' BA-list is really awesome, it has scouts, bikers, a librarian, 2 ASM and 2 tacticals (with priests, but C:SM cannot take those)
But then comes the new codex and I can build almost the exact same list, but 175 points cheaper!
Sure, I lose a 75 points FnP-bubble, but combine that with the other 175 and I have 250 points left to spend on anything I want.
Just switching codex gives me a free Land Raider!

So see, it's not about having a really effective build.
It's about another codex doing a better job at the thing I should do best.

You forgot that in C:SM those ASMs won't be scoring though.

 azreal13 wrote:
With the apparent adjustment of Tac squads to one special/heavy per 5 man team, has the use of multiple baby Dev squads cropped up in one of the pages I haven't really read properly?

The idea of using special and combi-bolter in a drop pod popped up earlier, but that's equally valid. Lascannons came down a bit, so 90 points for five tacs with a las is pretty nice.


I do like the idea of special and combi-melta in a pod. Quick question, when you have drop pods in an allied detachment, do they drop as though they were separate from the primary detachment's pods? Like if I had 3 pods in a primary detachment and 1 in a secondary detachment, do 3 pods come down on turn 1 consisting of two from the primary and one from the secondary, or do just two come down of my choosing?

Crazyterran wrote:
Using Tigurius got a lot more attractive. Especially if he has three wounds. And permanent access to Storm of Fire! That's pretty damn good, too!

Yeah, I'm pretty excited about the Tigurius alpha strike list I'm plotting. Tiggy and 10 sternguard w/combis drop and storm of fire the biggest threat to death. 2 squads of relentless devs move out of cover and give the drop support. Then the Stormraven swoops in to clean up the mess. Much more reliable with that reserve re-roll. Mmmm yeah.

DogofWar1 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
With the apparent adjustment of Tac squads to one special/heavy per 5 man team, has the use of multiple baby Dev squads cropped up in one of the pages I haven't really read properly?

The idea of using special and combi-bolter in a drop pod popped up earlier, but that's equally valid. Lascannons came down a bit, so 90 points for five tacs with a las is pretty nice.


I do like the idea of special and combi-melta in a pod. Quick question, when you have drop pods in an allied detachment, do they drop as though they were separate from the primary detachment's pods? Like if I had 3 pods in a primary detachment and 1 in a secondary detachment, do 3 pods come down on turn 1 consisting of two from the primary and one from the secondary, or do just two come down of my choosing?

So is this edition then the return of the Las/Plas combo I heard about from 4th?

 Kirasu wrote:
No offense to your opponents, but when someone uses the quote "worst unit in the game" to beat opponents left and right.. that usually means the opponents are not very experienced. I agree tho that ASM can do the skirmisher role, I still think they're bad at everything they do in Codex: SM, but I concede they can perform that function.

I said it was Internet Wisdom that said they were useless, not me. I worked out a method of delivery through a strategy I called "Grand Theft Rhino" got them across the board and opened up that can of Rage. It was a strategy that required planning and finesse (early game blocking LOS to keep them from wandering off) but because it took an extra step or two (buying an extra Rhino in the list, planning how to deploy things, ect) people didn't immediately see how they could be used and thus they were "bad".

The point is that with creativity a unit that is less than perfect can still be very effective in the right player's hands and we shouldn't be telling people that they're completely unusable just because they aren't easy to use as other options.

 Kirasu wrote:
And yes there is nothing preventing you from using them. I'm just saying there are vastly better choices for every single battlefield function they can perform. If you're determined to use them, great but understand that players who get rolled by assault marines, repentia and mutilators are not the benchmark you should use.

I get were you're coming from but I stand by the idea that no one should be told not to take something just because other things do it better. It stifles creativity and it doesn't give people a chance to learn the game better to be able to use those units properly. Can you tell them about them? Sure! I just don't think anyone should ever be told "NEVER take X because Y does it's job better".

But that's just me.

 Kirasu wrote:
I once beat a kid in the FIRST turn at an 'ard boyz.. It's not because I played well, it's cause he played absolutely horrible. I'd be wary to confuse unit effectiveness with poor opponent performance.

I've tabled Blood Angels and Space Wolves during their hay-day in 5th using Sisters and their WD Codex. I'm not using that as proof of anything though. The point was that if you can think of a solution then any unit is just as usable as any other. Some just require less finesse to employ effectively. I guess I'm trying to say is some units are hammers, others are rapiers and just because it's easier to cause damage with a hammer it doesn't mean the rapier is less deadly.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
With the apparent adjustment of Tac squads to one special/heavy per 5 man team, has the use of multiple baby Dev squads cropped up in one of the pages I haven't really read properly?

The idea of using special and combi-bolter in a drop pod popped up earlier, but that's equally valid. Lascannons came down a bit, so 90 points for five tacs with a las is pretty nice.


I do like the idea of special and combi-melta in a pod. Quick question, when you have drop pods in an allied detachment, do they drop as though they were separate from the primary detachment's pods? Like if I had 3 pods in a primary detachment and 1 in a secondary detachment, do 3 pods come down on turn 1 consisting of two from the primary and one from the secondary, or do just two come down of my choosing?

So is this edition then the return of the Las/Plas combo I heard about from 4th?

Doubtful, as the combi weapon can only fire once.

And wow, I just realized something: The new THs on the Vanguard, coupled with these:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440277a&prodId=prod1710026a

means I can finally have a model in Power/Artificer Armour with dual Thunder Hammers

I would be interested in seeing if there will be a return of the combi weapon on squad sergeants. If they are fixed cost still I could see combi-grav, being a useful kitout, as well as potentially combi-melta, especially on IF devastators. If an enemy vehicle gets too close, fire off that combi grav as well as those heavy weapons with tank hunter.

Obviously just speculation but it will be interesting to see.

I wonder if grav pistols will be worth it. Plasma have not been and I am guessing they will be priced the same.

Just so excited, I have already been writing up sternguard lists to try out.

On the fence about centurions though.....kinda rather take the devastators since I am IF all the time.

LotD:
1. What are "flaming projectiles"?
2. Do they still re-roll scatter?

 SickSix wrote:
LotD:
1. What are "flaming projectiles"?
2. Do they still re-roll scatter?

1. They ignore cover.
2. No idea honestly.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You forgot that in C:SM those ASMs won't be scoring though.

Yes, they are scoring when using Korvydae.
They are even troop-choices! Do we need to repeat this every other page?

Just re-reading stuff there and realised it says Bikes can get Grav Guns. With Relentless that would be pretty nifty, getting 3 AP2 shots against high armour targets. Hell assuming you can get 2 like normal special weapons in the squad, that squad should be able to one shot most MCs in the game (including their Bolter fire).

Yea, multi melta and grav, with twinlinked bolters as back up. Would be a pretty nifty combination.

Especially with White Scars, that will be crazy.

I bet in their supplement they will get all bikes without Khan, but it will be very interesting to see what happens with regards to the generic relics. We still have no idea what they are going to do.

Also I heard there might be an EW relic shield. It would be interesting to see how someone similar to Lysander would cost in kit out.

Kangodo wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You forgot that in C:SM those ASMs won't be scoring though.

Yes, they are scoring when using Korvydae.
They are even troop-choices! Do we need to repeat this every other page?

Forge World is widely accepted now, as it should be, but basically nobody has those books or has memorized those rules and characters. No need to be snippy that people are basing their comments on what they know, rather than a book very few people have actually seen or had access to.

 Leth wrote:
Yea, multi melta and grav, with twinlinked bolters as back up. Would be a pretty nifty combination.

Especially with White Scars, that will be crazy.

I bet in their supplement they will get all bikes without Khan, but it will be very interesting to see what happens with regards to the generic relics. We still have no idea what they are going to do.

Also I heard there might be an EW relic shield. It would be interesting to see how someone similar to Lysander would cost in kit out.

Chapter Master in AA + Shield + Fist. It's like Lysander, but can sweep.

 tomjoad wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
You forgot that in C:SM those ASMs won't be scoring though.

Yes, they are scoring when using Korvydae.
They are even troop-choices! Do we need to repeat this every other page?

Forge World is widely accepted now, as it should be, but basically nobody has those books or has memorized those rules and characters. No need to be snippy that people are basing their comments on what they know, rather than a book very few people have actually seen or had access to.

Agreed! Especially in a thread discussing rumors that revolve around the codex itself and us not know what FW will be doing to those Marine characters of theirs. I'm itching to know what they plan to do to Captain Silas myself, and if they'll be giving Exorcists a Chapter Trait to represent their different method of waging war when compared to other Marines.

Crazyterran wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Yea, multi melta and grav, with twinlinked bolters as back up. Would be a pretty nifty combination.

Especially with White Scars, that will be crazy.

I bet in their supplement they will get all bikes without Khan, but it will be very interesting to see what happens with regards to the generic relics. We still have no idea what they are going to do.

Also I heard there might be an EW relic shield. It would be interesting to see how someone similar to Lysander would cost in kit out.

Chapter Master in AA + Shield + Fist. It's like Lysander, but can sweep.

With CMs now having W4 and A4, the amount of ways you can kit them out to be CC monsters that will never die makes me giddy, especially now that the new veteran models present excellent kit-bashing opportunities

ASM aren't an Assault unit like Bloodletters or Repentia, their a skirmisher unit for finishing off weakened units or taking out Devastators who are hiding on the back of the board. Can you handle the problem differently? Sure. But it doesn't mean that you can't use ASM.

They should call them whimpy skirmish marines instead of assault marines since "assault" actually hints of some sort of proficiency in melee combat.

 Pyriel- wrote:

ASM aren't an Assault unit like Bloodletters or Repentia, their a skirmisher unit for finishing off weakened units or taking out Devastators who are hiding on the back of the board. Can you handle the problem differently? Sure. But it doesn't mean that you can't use ASM.

They should call them whimpy skirmish marines instead of assault marines since "assault" actually hints of some sort of proficiency in melee combat.

I disagree because Assault Marines are just that, Marines who Assault. They're better kitted out to do it than Tactical Marines, but unlike pure assault units like Bloodletters they can also shoot. Heck with good placement and 2 Flamers the unit can force a pretty good number of wounds on a unit before charging in to finish them off. For Bloodletters to do something similiar they need to invest in a cannon.

So Pedro Kantor is a Chapter Master for the Crimson Fists, but there is no Chapter Tactics for the Crimson Fists. Based on the information given, that successors (except BT) use their parent chapter's rules, does this mean that taking Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics allows for Pedro and/or Lysander? In which case, that actually makes me pretty happy. My Sons of Dorn plan may yet still be workable.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
So Pedro Kantor is a Chapter Master for the Crimson Fists, but there is no Chapter Tactics for the Crimson Fists. Based on the information given, that successors (except BT) use their parent chapter's rules, does this mean that taking Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics allows for Pedro and/or Lysander? In which case, that actually makes me pretty happy. My Sons of Dorn plan may yet still be workable.

Yeah, they were lying about that. Pedro and Lysander can be in the same detachment, but from the sound of things Pedro's rules sound like they're only supposed to work if you're playing Crimson Fists.

Hmm, well, I guess we'll find out soon. Still, that's something that makes me happy about the book. Being able to play all 3 Dorn groups in a single army is a positive for me.

Little confused on Calgar and Warlord Traits. So he gets three. Roll for two (able to reroll) and then just pick the third? Calgar with Tigurius is going to be tough to handle in larger games.

 Lobukia wrote:
Little confused on Calgar and Warlord Traits. So he gets three. Roll for two (able to reroll) and then just pick the third? Calgar with Tigurius is going to be tough to handle in larger games.

No, Calgar makes 3 rolls, re-rolling doubles and of those 3 he rolls he picks one.

I think they said that Pedro has Chapter Tactics(Crimson Fists), it probably says. Crimson Fists use the Imperial Fists combat tactics, however are considered different from imperial fists so they probably cant be in the same list without allying in.

 Leth wrote:
I think they said that Pedro has Chapter Tactics(Crimson Fists), it probably says. Crimson Fists use the Imperial Fists combat tactics, however are considered different from imperial fists so they probably cant be in the same list without allying in.

They didn't say what his chapter tactic was but they DID say when talking about characters who share the same Chapter Tactic that it means Lysander and Pedro can be in the same detachment.

Plus there is no Crimson Fist Chapter Tactic.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Yea, multi melta and grav, with twinlinked bolters as back up. Would be a pretty nifty combination.

Especially with White Scars, that will be crazy.

I bet in their supplement they will get all bikes without Khan, but it will be very interesting to see what happens with regards to the generic relics. We still have no idea what they are going to do.

Also I heard there might be an EW relic shield. It would be interesting to see how someone similar to Lysander would cost in kit out.

Chapter Master in AA + Shield + Fist. It's like Lysander, but can sweep.

With CMs now having W4 and A4, the amount of ways you can kit them out to be CC monsters that will never die makes me giddy, especially now that the new veteran models present excellent kit-bashing opportunities

As a vanilla SM player this does excite me as we really haven't had any monster CC characters.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Little confused on Calgar and Warlord Traits. So he gets three. Roll for two (able to reroll) and then just pick the third? Calgar with Tigurius is going to be tough to handle in larger games.

No, Calgar makes 3 rolls, re-rolling doubles and of those 3 he rolls he picks one.

Makes so much more sense. Thanks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, 40kradio.com is not working for me and their podcast isn't up on itunes yet. Where are you guys getting it?

 Lobukia wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Little confused on Calgar and Warlord Traits. So he gets three. Roll for two (able to reroll) and then just pick the third? Calgar with Tigurius is going to be tough to handle in larger games.

No, Calgar makes 3 rolls, re-rolling doubles and of those 3 he rolls he picks one.

Makes so much more sense. Thanks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, 40kradio.com is not working for me and their podcast isn't up on itunes yet. Where are you guys getting it?

Their site must have gone down then. I've got a roll-up over on Talk Wargaming: http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/08/codex-space-marines-roll-up-special.html

Not the same thing as the show, but a decent enough substitute for those who don't have 2 hours or can't get to it right now.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Little confused on Calgar and Warlord Traits. So he gets three. Roll for two (able to reroll) and then just pick the third? Calgar with Tigurius is going to be tough to handle in larger games.

No, Calgar makes 3 rolls, re-rolling doubles and of those 3 he rolls he picks one.

Makes so much more sense. Thanks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, 40kradio.com is not working for me and their podcast isn't up on itunes yet. Where are you guys getting it?

Their site must have gone down then. I've got a roll-up over on Talk Wargaming: http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/08/codex-space-marines-roll-up-special.html

Not the same thing as the show, but a decent enough substitute for those who don't have 2 hours or can't get to it right now.

Thanks, again

 Kingsley wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
I still don't see a purpose to play anything other than Ultramarines with such a vastly superior rule..

Although the funniest thing to me is yet ANOTHER assault nerf in the form of Vanguard Vets. I can't imagine the trauma that had to have been caused to create such hysteria over the perceived power of the assault phase (btw 5th ed was a shooting edition also..).

Were Vanguard vets so overly powerful that they needed to lose the ability to assault after deep strike? Were so many Ivory Tower residents (GW designers) getting rolled day after day by hordes of Vanguard dropping from the skies to destroy their perfectly lined up Ultramarine tactical squads, such that they needed to be regulated to COMPLETE obsolesces? (as opposed to near-complete obsolesces..)

Assaulting out of Reserves is fundamentally dumb and bad for the game. There's a reason that practically all of it has been removed during 5th and 6th edition.

Then stop giving us assault oriented armies in any form and make it a fully shooting game! It does not make sense that as a BA player my best bet is to leave my assault troops home.

Lagging behind 10 pages..

i'm very excited about this. flakk missiles, yeah!!!!!!!!!!

At least Assault Marines are still better than Howling Banshees :p

 SickSix wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Yea, multi melta and grav, with twinlinked bolters as back up. Would be a pretty nifty combination.

Especially with White Scars, that will be crazy.

I bet in their supplement they will get all bikes without Khan, but it will be very interesting to see what happens with regards to the generic relics. We still have no idea what they are going to do.

Also I heard there might be an EW relic shield. It would be interesting to see how someone similar to Lysander would cost in kit out.

Chapter Master in AA + Shield + Fist. It's like Lysander, but can sweep.

With CMs now having W4 and A4, the amount of ways you can kit them out to be CC monsters that will never die makes me giddy, especially now that the new veteran models present excellent kit-bashing opportunities

As a vanilla SM player this does excite me as we really haven't had any monster CC characters.

Dont be too excited unless there's a way to buy EW or +1T

It looks like a lot of people are excited to see that Salamander Characters get to make a weapon master crafted.

Is it really that good? (I'm honestly asking, not trying to be negative) -- what would be the best way to utilize that?

I suppose with the removal of MC TH, this means that at least the Termie sergeant can still take one.

Aside from that, as I said earlier, the re-roll failed armor saves on flamer is "meh", but at least it's something. TL Flamer is still decent and appears to have made the Flamestorm cannons TL now as well. If/when I actually take a LR, it's usually of the LRR for fluff reasons.

I used to take Terminator Libby in higher point games to add utility to my Salamander lists, but looks like I'll be allying in Tigurius. Not getting any of our own psychic powers makes the standard libby less appealing since random powers and lack of divination table really take away the usefulness. No more guaranteed Gate of Infinity and Null Zone

All in all, I don't see a lot that's going to help me handle the Eldar lists I've been seeing as of late. I think I may need to hit up the tactics forums and see what I'm doing wrong. Played against an Iyanden list that basically tabled me by the end of turn 4. I don't see anything in the new dex rumors that's going to change that much if I want to keep playing Salamanders.

Overall, I'm pretty excited. Can't wait to try out new combinations of ally's as this lets you make a TON of different list styles all from 1 book. I'm excited to give the Centurions a go as well as seeing how well the Grav weapons do.

 davou wrote:

Dont be too excited unless there's a way to buy EW or +1T

That's exactly the thing, one of the relics is supposed to give EW. I think the rumors are that it's a shield, basically allowing you to make a Lysander clone, or even better, one in Artificer Armor who can sweep.

DogofWar1 wrote:

 davou wrote:

Dont be too excited unless there's a way to buy EW or +1T

That's exactly the thing, one of the relics is supposed to give EW. I think the rumors are that it's a shield, basically allowing you to make a Lysander clone, or even better, one in Artificer Armor who can sweep.

Which ever it is, its most likely going to cost 65pts, which is how much the most expensive relic is supposed to cost. I really hope if its the shield it still has the 3++

ClockworkZion wrote:

Black Templars: + Gains / - Losses
- No More Vows Pretty big. Even if AAC was the only one ever taken it was an integral part of the army that doesn't look like it's been adequately replaced.
- No More Marshalls or Castellans Upgraded to Captains/Chapter Masters, get free Iron Halo, better stats. Straight up buff.
- No More Terminator Command Squads Meh, was going to happen anyway.
- No More Master of Sanctity/Reclessiarchy Completely pointless. Both BA and DA have 3-wound Chaplains, but apparently we can't have good CC units now, can we?
- Sword Brethren are no longer units More or less moved to Vanguard Veterans, no big deal
- No More 2 Heavy Weapons in a 5 man Terminator Squad Was going to happen.
- No More special rule upgrades (Tank Hunter, ect) Was going to happen.
- No More Storm Shields on Assault Squads Was going to happen.
- No More extra power weapons in bike squad Was probably coming anyway, but still a little annoying.
- No More Fearless in Close Combat Guess Adamantium WIll compensates for this. If you live on a planet ruled by unicorns.
- No More Righteous Zeal One of the defining rules of the Black Templars Codex removed without any sort of compensation. Sure, we didn't like having to GtG to hold objectives, but that situation only popped up because GW decided to FAQ it up in the first place.
- Some Flavor I don't know about you, but I'd call losing more than half the Army USRs while gaining little a bit more than "some"...
- Most Heavy Weapons +5 more Meh, cheaper Marines.
- No More Power of the Machine Spirt upgrade Was going to happen.

+ Chapter Master and Captains More or less an upgrade to Castellans and Marshals. Fair enough.
+ Honor Guard Depending on options, YUMMY!
+ Regular Chaplains Not a gain so much as a nerf.
+ Master of the Forge Meh, we had 2-wound Techmarines with armoury access in Elites, now they're likely 1-wound with limited options. Our HQ slots are going to be crowded anyway.
+ Tactical Squads Templars had these already, not a gain.
+ Scout Squads Completely counter to the fluff, but I've always liked Scout Squads. Might have to model some Marines with Sniper Rifles (or get the FW squad).
+ Land Speeder Storm Yay?
+ Vanguard More or less updated Sword Brethren, not going to complain (yet! )
+ Sternguard Possibly one of the best MEQ units in the game IMO; huge utility.
+ Ironclad Dreadnoughts TANKRED SMASH!
+ Centurions (Assault and Devastator) No comment. Not because I don't like them, but because there's not much to say.
+ Scout Bikes See above.
+ Devastators Again, counter to fluff, but decent enough.
+ Whirlwinds Makes sense, never did get why they weren't in the 4th edition Codex when GW themselves had WWs painted up in Templar colours.
+ Hunter Whoop-dee-doo.
+ Stalker Doop-dee-whoo.
+ Land Raider Redeemer Always wanted one of these, not going to complain.
+ Crusader Squad keeps Land Raider Crusader as a Dedicated Transport Not a gain, just not a nerf.
+ Initiates are 5 points cheaper (counting Frag and Krak Grenade upgrades) Cheaper Marines somewhat mitigate the loss of CC prowess, but I'm not sure it'll be enough.
+ Sword Brother option in Crusader Squad Buff.
+ Keep Initiate Power Weapon/Fist option But more expensive, so technically a loss.
+ Neophyte leadership increased to Ld 8 They were already Ld8.
+ Neophyte Shotguns S4 Already fixed in FAQ.
+ Crusader Squad keeps Pistol and Chainsword option Not a gain, just not a nerf.
+ Crusader Squad Organization stays the same Not a nerf as opposed to a gain.
.

Replies in red.

ClockworkZion wrote:

Emperor's Champion:
- Uses HQ Slot
- 140 Points
- 2+/4++
- Black Sword: AP2, Mastercrafted
- Combat Stances:
Smite the Unclean - +2 Strength, Black Sword is two-handed and unwieldy
Slay the Heretic - Rolls of 6s to wound are Instant Death
- Bolt Pistol gives extra attack (unless using Smite the Unclean)

Now I'm confused, is the Black Sword still S6 or not? Did the say anything about his statline? Pretty pleased with getting the old "this is my Power Fist Sword" rule back though. Nothing about Warlord Traits on him I assume?

ClockworkZion wrote:

Grimaldus:
- 185 Points
- -1 BS
- +1 Wound
- -1 Attack
- It will Not Die (replaced "Only in Death Does Duty End"
- Zealot
- Relics of Hellsreach: Any Black Templar of a servitor in 6" gains a 6++ Invunerable save.
- Unmatched Zeal: Black Templar models within of 6" of Chaplain of Grimaldus have the Zealot special rule.

So, 10 points cheaper than before but worse than he already was? I mean, spreading Hatred to everyone within 6" is potentially very nice, but he's 185 points for a dude with 3+ armour and an AP4 weapon. He just doesn't add enough of anything to the army that a normal Chaplain, even in their new, neutered state, can't add better and cheaper (except the 6++).

ClockworkZion wrote:

Helbrect:
- 180 points
- +1 WS
- Rites of Valor - Gone
- Crusade of Wrath: Once per game, during the Assualt Phase, all models with the Black Templar Chapter Tactics gain Hatred and Fleet until the end of the phase.
- Sword of the High Marshalls is the same
- Legacy of Dorn (+D3 attack on the charge) same

Wait, so if the Sword of the High Marshals is the same, what's this "Legacy of Dorn" thing? He doesn't have that in the current book, and he already has +D3 attacks during the first turn of combat from his Sword. Also, no Warlord Trait? I'd have thought Furious Charge would fit him like a glove.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Black Templars: + Gains / - Losses
- No More Vows Pretty big. Even if AAC was the only one ever taken it was an integral part of the army that doesn't look like it's been adequately replaced.
- No More Marshalls or Castellans Upgraded to Captains/Chapter Masters, get free Iron Halo, better stats. Straight up buff.
- No More Terminator Command Squads Meh, was going to happen anyway.
- No More Master of Sanctity/Reclessiarchy Completely pointless. Both BA and DA have 3-wound Chaplains, but apparently we can't have good CC units now, can we?
- Sword Brethren are no longer units More or less moved to Vanguard Veterans, no big deal
- No More 2 Heavy Weapons in a 5 man Terminator Squad Was going to happen.
- No More special rule upgrades (Tank Hunter, ect) Was going to happen.
- No More Storm Shields on Assault Squads Was going to happen.
- No More extra power weapons in bike squad Was probably coming anyway, but still a little annoying.
- No More Fearless in Close Combat Guess Adamantium WIll compensates for this. If you live on a planet ruled by unicorns.
- No More Righteous Zeal One of the defining rules of the Black Templars Codex removed without any sort of compensation. Sure, we didn't like having to GtG to hold objectives, but that situation only popped up because GW decided to FAQ it up in the first place.
- Some Flavor I don't know about you, but I'd call losing more than half the Army USRs while gaining little a bit more than "some"...
- Most Heavy Weapons +5 more Meh, cheaper Marines.
- No More Power of the Machine Spirt upgrade Was going to happen.

+ Chapter Master and Captains More or less an upgrade to Castellans and Marshals. Fair enough.
+ Honor Guard Depending on options, YUMMY!
+ Regular Chaplains Not a gain so much as a nerf.
+ Master of the Forge Meh, we had 2-wound Techmarines with armoury access in Elites, now they're likely 1-wound with limited options. Our HQ slots are going to be crowded anyway.
+ Tactical Squads Templars had these already, not a gain.
+ Scout Squads Completely counter to the fluff, but I've always liked Scout Squads. Might have to model some Marines with Sniper Rifles (or get the FW squad).
+ Land Speeder Storm Yay?
+ Vanguard More or less updated Sword Brethren, not going to complain (yet! )
+ Sternguard Possibly one of the best MEQ units in the game IMO; huge utility.
+ Ironclad Dreadnoughts TANKRED SMASH!
+ Centurions (Assault and Devastator) No comment. Not because I don't like them, but because there's not much to say.
+ Scout Bikes See above.
+ Devastators Again, counter to fluff, but decent enough.
+ Whirlwinds Makes sense, never did get why they weren't in the 4th edition Codex when GW themselves had WWs painted up in Templar colours.
+ Hunter Whoop-dee-doo.
+ Stalker Doop-dee-whoo.
+ Land Raider Redeemer Always wanted one of these, not going to complain.
+ Crusader Squad keeps Land Raider Crusader as a Dedicated Transport Not a gain, just not a nerf.
+ Initiates are 5 points cheaper (counting Frag and Krak Grenade upgrades) Cheaper Marines somewhat mitigate the loss of CC prowess, but I'm not sure it'll be enough.
+ Sword Brother option in Crusader Squad Buff.
+ Keep Initiate Power Weapon/Fist option But more expensive, so technically a loss.
+ Neophyte leadership increased to Ld 8 They were already Ld8.
+ Neophyte Shotguns S4 Already fixed in FAQ.
+ Crusader Squad keeps Pistol and Chainsword option Not a gain, just not a nerf.
+ Crusader Squad Organization stays the same Not a nerf as opposed to a gain.
.

Replies in red.

Most are those are actually from 40k Radio's assessment. I added a couple extra losses in there (Machine Spirit for example).

The Neophyte one confused me. They said the leadership "went up by +1 to 8". Maybe they were confused?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Emperor's Champion:
- Uses HQ Slot
- 140 Points
- 2+/4++
- Black Sword: AP2, Mastercrafted
- Combat Stances:
Smite the Unclean - +2 Strength, Black Sword is two-handed and unwieldy
Slay the Heretic - Rolls of 6s to wound are Instant Death
- Bolt Pistol gives extra attack (unless using Smite the Unclean)

Now I'm confused, is the Black Sword still S6 or not? Did the say anything about his statline? Pretty pleased with getting the old "this is my Power Fist Sword" rule back though. Nothing about Warlord Traits on him I assume?

As I think I understand it he's S4 but he has a stance (kind of like the Brother Champion from Grey Knights) that makes him S6 at the cost of going at I1. Even at S4 though he's AP2 and causes instant death.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Grimaldus:
- 185 Points
- -1 BS
- +1 Wound
- -1 Attack
- It will Not Die (replaced "Only in Death Does Duty End"
- Zealot
- Relics of Hellsreach: Any Black Templar of a servitor in 6" gains a 6++ Invunerable save.
- Unmatched Zeal: Black Templar models within of 6" of Chaplain of Grimaldus have the Zealot special rule.

So, 10 points cheaper than before but worse than he already was? I mean, spreading Hatred to everyone within 6" is potentially very nice, but he's 185 points for a dude with 3+ armour and an AP4 weapon. He just doesn't add enough of anything to the army that a normal Chaplain, even in their new, neutered state, can't add better and cheaper (except the 6++).

Chaplains all over the Marine books have primarily been a character who gives a small buff at the loss of an HQ slot. I don't really see this as a surprise.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Helbrect:
- 180 points
- +1 WS
- Rites of Valor - Gone
- Crusade of Wrath: Once per game, during the Assualt Phase, all models with the Black Templar Chapter Tactics gain Hatred and Fleet until the end of the phase.
- Sword of the High Marshalls is the same
- Legacy of Dorn (+D3 attack on the charge) same

Wait, so if the Sword of the High Marshals is the same, what's this "Legacy of Dorn" thing? He doesn't have that in the current book, and he already has +D3 attacks during the first turn of combat from his Sword. Also, no Warlord Trait? I'd have thought Furious Charge would fit him like a glove.

I think that's the rule the Sword has that let it do that. I'm not sure. They weren't clear on that. I'm chalking that one up to their poor communication as with the Neophytes. It's easy to make notes that make sense to you when you have the book, the problem is their notes don't make as much sense to the rest of us.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Emperor's Champion:
- Uses HQ Slot
- 140 Points
- 2+/4++
- Black Sword: AP2, Mastercrafted
- Combat Stances:
Smite the Unclean - +2 Strength, Black Sword is two-handed and unwieldy
Slay the Heretic - Rolls of 6s to wound are Instant Death
- Bolt Pistol gives extra attack (unless using Smite the Unclean)

Now I'm confused, is the Black Sword still S6 or not? Did the say anything about his statline? Pretty pleased with getting the old "this is my Power Fist Sword" rule back though. Nothing about Warlord Traits on him I assume?

As I think I understand it he's S4 but he has a stance (kind of like the Brother Champion from Grey Knights) that makes him S6 at the cost of going at I1. Even at S4 though he's AP2 and causes instant death.

[Expletive deleted]. How do they imagine that he's going to kill anyone with an S4 weapon? Sure, Instant Death yadda yadda, but S4 does not a melee powerhouse make.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:

 davou wrote:

Dont be too excited unless there's a way to buy EW or +1T

That's exactly the thing, one of the relics is supposed to give EW. I think the rumors are that it's a shield, basically allowing you to make a Lysander clone, or even better, one in Artificer Armor who can sweep.

Which ever it is, its most likely going to cost 65pts, which is how much the most expensive relic is supposed to cost. I really hope if its the shield it still has the 3++

If it was an EW storm shield, 65 pts would make perfect sense, since SS is usually 30 points, and EW is 35ish. The one thing is that if you upgrade an Iron Halo, 30 pts to go from 4++ to 3++ is a bit steep, but getting EW on a 4W chapter master, especially if you give him artificer armor, is Nasty awesome.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Emperor's Champion:
- Uses HQ Slot
- 140 Points
- 2+/4++
- Black Sword: AP2, Mastercrafted
- Combat Stances:
Smite the Unclean - +2 Strength, Black Sword is two-handed and unwieldy
Slay the Heretic - Rolls of 6s to wound are Instant Death
- Bolt Pistol gives extra attack (unless using Smite the Unclean)

Now I'm confused, is the Black Sword still S6 or not? Did the say anything about his statline? Pretty pleased with getting the old "this is my Power Fist Sword" rule back though. Nothing about Warlord Traits on him I assume?

As I think I understand it he's S4 but he has a stance (kind of like the Brother Champion from Grey Knights) that makes him S6 at the cost of going at I1. Even at S4 though he's AP2 and causes instant death.

[Expletive deleted]. How do they imagine that he's going to kill anyone with an S4 weapon? Sure, Instant Death yadda yadda, but S4 does not a melee powerhouse make.

Because he also has rending and re-rolls hits in challenges. With less Eternal Warrior running around that means he only needs a 6 to wound regardless of toughness at AP2 and force them to pass an invulnerable save or die. That's not bad. 3 attacks normally like that, 4 on the turn he charges....he'll be good for somethings. I wouldn't warlord hunt with him, but he's got his uses.

Something that doesn't sit well with me...

They say the Salamanders don't really have any Successors, so they have a lot more Marines in their Chapter.

Salamanders have always been a small Chapter, with around 700 marines, with only one alleged successor Chapter - The Black Dragons.

Have they retconned the fluff?

On another topic...

The White Scars, Iron Hands and Raven Guard CTs are looking to be quite good. I was at first undecided on the IH, but it does have some merits, especially for the Chapter Master.

For the Raven Guard, Scouts racing around in LSS to get into cover and then have that lovely 2+ Cover Save. Only downside is that Tau would mince the army in quick time.

White Scars with Khan just look uber powerful. Great shooting, fair CC, very very fast.

Is there any word on the Blood Ravens and if GW have decided to name their Primarch or where they originate from genetically?

Puscifer wrote:
Something that doesn't sit well with me...

They say the Salamanders don't really have any Successors, so they have a lot more Marines in their Chapter.

Salamanders have always been a small Chapter, with around 700 marines, with only one alleged successor Chapter - The Black Dragons.

Have they retconned the fluff?

From what they said, Black Dragons aren't successors to the Salamanders now. Or perhaps not officially.

I don't have insight into the full fluff, just the snippets they said. One comment was that the Salamanders had more Devastators that normal, but that's not enough to really form a conclusion around.

Puscifer wrote:
On another topic...

The White Scars, Iron Hands and Raven Guard CTs are looking to be quite good. I was at first undecided on the IH, but it does have some merits, especially for the Chapter Master.

For the Raven Guard, Scouts racing around in LSS to get into cover and then have that lovely 2+ Cover Save. Only downside is that Tau would mince the army in quick time.

White Scars with Khan just look uber powerful. Great shooting, fair CC, very very fast.

Is there any word on the Blood Ravens and if GW have decided to name their Primarch or where they originate from genetically?

No word was mentioned about that.

Thanks Zion.

Yeah, that's a complete turnaround on the Salamanders regarding fluff. Not a real surprise though.

As for Blood Ravens, they really are an anomaly. The fluff suggests (sparingly) Thousand Sons, but their tactics strongly suggest Raven Guard.

IMO - they've got to be Cursed Founding.

They weren't around before it and they coincidentally appeared around the same time.

Yeah, I think Raven Guard rules for them.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Emperor's Champion:
- Uses HQ Slot
- 140 Points
- 2+/4++
- Black Sword: AP2, Mastercrafted
- Combat Stances:
Smite the Unclean - +2 Strength, Black Sword is two-handed and unwieldy
Slay the Heretic - Rolls of 6s to wound are Instant Death
- Bolt Pistol gives extra attack (unless using Smite the Unclean)

Now I'm confused, is the Black Sword still S6 or not? Did the say anything about his statline? Pretty pleased with getting the old "this is my Power Fist Sword" rule back though. Nothing about Warlord Traits on him I assume?

As I think I understand it he's S4 but he has a stance (kind of like the Brother Champion from Grey Knights) that makes him S6 at the cost of going at I1. Even at S4 though he's AP2 and causes instant death.

[Expletive deleted]. How do they imagine that he's going to kill anyone with an S4 weapon? Sure, Instant Death yadda yadda, but S4 does not a melee powerhouse make.

AP2 is very good however, he should be able to take most humanoid opponents and then if they are big beasties go 2HD for STR 6 (which instant deaths my St Celestine and my Dark Eldar)

Llyeth and most DE are S3 as I recall , Incubi get up to S4 and they are not bad in hand to hand............

 Mr Morden wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Emperor's Champion:
- Uses HQ Slot
- 140 Points
- 2+/4++
- Black Sword: AP2, Mastercrafted
- Combat Stances:
Smite the Unclean - +2 Strength, Black Sword is two-handed and unwieldy
Slay the Heretic - Rolls of 6s to wound are Instant Death
- Bolt Pistol gives extra attack (unless using Smite the Unclean)

Now I'm confused, is the Black Sword still S6 or not? Did the say anything about his statline? Pretty pleased with getting the old "this is my Power Fist Sword" rule back though. Nothing about Warlord Traits on him I assume?

As I think I understand it he's S4 but he has a stance (kind of like the Brother Champion from Grey Knights) that makes him S6 at the cost of going at I1. Even at S4 though he's AP2 and causes instant death.

[Expletive deleted]. How do they imagine that he's going to kill anyone with an S4 weapon? Sure, Instant Death yadda yadda, but S4 does not a melee powerhouse make.

AP2 is very good however, he should be able to take most humanoid opponents and then if they are big beasties go 2HD for STR 6 (which instant deaths my St Celestine and my Dark Eldar)

Llyeth and most DE are S3 as I recall , Incubi get up to S4 and they are not bad in hand to hand............

Lelith has 1410725412025^27 attacks and Incubi are, countrary to your claim, rather shoddy in CC. The Emperor's Champion currently has S6 on his sword but not AP2, now we get the AP2 we've been wanting but get the Strength nerfed instead. There are no buffs to CC in the Codex that doesn't seem to come with an equal nerf, which is fine if you're trying to contain Power Creep, but it's not fine if you're trying to update a Codex from two editions ago that needed buffs to be competetive.

I've not had a problem with Incubi in combat thus far - S4 and AP2 kills most opponents - but I may be wrong - I do find Wyches useless but not Incubi.

Most opponents (who often beat me) want to kill them before they get into combat as they slaughter Marines and usually come off best against anything but Storm Sheild Terminators?

Llyeth is wonderful for getting lots of attacks but she's only S3 - she is as good as AP2 (well better), I have found however that with only T3 and a 4++ save she dies very quickly.

What sort of opponents (save for Storm Shield Terms) do you think will be the biggest problem for the EC? He should slaughter rank and file - I guess it might be important what his I is as to how well he can fight CC elites but he has got AS 2+ / 4+ which is nice?

I find Armour 2+ very annoying with St Celestine and other Power Sword wielding characters

Looks like I will be sticking to a generic warlord for my Black Templars. The SCs for them are not competitive seeming in 6th. I will take the Emperor's Champion (taking my 2nd HQ slot now) not because he is good, but because I have run a Champion as fluff for years. Really bothers me that he takes a slot and is NOT required now. He was the biggest Fluff piece on the table. EVERY BT army had him, they HAD to have him. Made us unique.

Anyways, from all I have read, my tactics are REALLY going to have to change. I know some people were complaining about Assault Marines being useless...but my old BT assault marines were GREAT. Each marine had melta bombs...paired with a jump chaplain, think about each marine making 1 melta bomb attack...and rerolling the miss from the chappie. That was an UBER squad...better when I strapped on some storm shields on ALL of them for the luls.

To be honest, Raven Guard are a black painted army too...I will probably just run my templars as raven guards...which makes me a sad crusader.

Edit: Just thought of a name for them...Temple Crows.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I've not had a problem with Incubi in combat thus far - S4 and AP2 kills most opponents - but I may be wrong - I do find Wyches useless but not Incubi.

Most opponents (who often beat me) want to kill them before they get into combat as they slaughter Marines and usually come off best against anything but Storm Sheild Terminators?

Llyeth is wonderful for getting lots of attacks but she's only S3 - she is as good as AP2 (well better), I have found however that with only T3 and a 4++ save she dies very quickly.

What sort of opponents (save for Storm Shield Terms) do you think will be the biggest problem for the EC? He should slaughter rank and file - I guess it might be important what his I is as to how well he can fight CC elites but he has got AS 2+ / 4+ which is nice?

I find Armour 2+ very annoying with St Celestine and other Power Sword wielding characters

He's not going to slaughter rank and file, he'll be worse at it than he is now unless said rank and file are Terminators or similar 2+ armour things. He's still going to struggle against enemy CC Characters, the one thing he's supposed to be good against fluff-wise.

I suppose he's not completely worthless though, if he gets the charge in and the enemy accepts his Challenge (I've no clue why they would, though...) he's got a 50/50 chance of inflicting Instant Death if he's hitting on 4+ with rerolls (4 attacks, 3 hits, 0.5 wound rolls are 6s), but if he doesn't ID (or can't ID) then he's much worse than before. It does turn him into a semi-decent Monster Hunter I suppose.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
And wow, I just realized something: The new THs on the Vanguard, coupled with these:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440277a&prodId=prod1710026a
means I can finally have a model in Power/Artificer Armour with dual Thunder Hammers

Whoa. Left-handed thunder hammers? I was just thinking I'd need one. Alas, I don't really need 5, though. I wonder if those shields are meant to be attached to a bolter grip arm?

DogofWar1 wrote:

If it was an EW storm shield, 65 pts would make perfect sense, since SS is usually 30 points, and EW is 35ish. The one thing is that if you upgrade an Iron Halo, 30 pts to go from 4++ to 3++ is a bit steep, but getting EW on a 4W chapter master, especially if you give him artificer armor, is Nasty awesome.

SS 30 points? No, it's 15. Still, I'd gladly pay 65 for EW+SS.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Lelith has 1410725412025^27 attacks and Incubi are, countrary to your claim, rather shoddy in CC. The Emperor's Champion currently has S6 on his sword but not AP2, now we get the AP2 we've been wanting but get the Strength nerfed instead. There are no buffs to CC in the Codex that doesn't seem to come with an equal nerf, which is fine if you're trying to contain Power Creep, but it's not fine if you're trying to update a Codex from two editions ago that needed buffs to be competetive.

Incubi shoddy? Ever actually ended up in close combat with them? For the record, Incubi vs Hammernators is a wash when both units cost the same and assuming no charge bonuses either way. So as long as you get them to combat, the incubi are pretty goddamn nasty. I've lost enough crusaders and yes, even hammernators to them to know, as well as seen a Deathwing army wiped off the table by them (prior to the new DA codex, not that it'd make much difference). Though of course the stats speak for themselves as it is. 3+, S4, AP2, A2, I5 for 22 points? Nuts. And here we are, paying 140 points for EC with A2/3 I5 S4 AP2. Derp. Dunno why GW is so allergic to giving at least one proper at-initiative AP2 weapon to SM characters, yet they go and introduce S9 AP2 I4 attacks via Centurions. It's also silly that the 2H mode is unwieldy, it makes no kind of sense whatsoever. Sword that's slower to swing with two hands than one, and then ends up worse than a power fist? Losing the extra attack from pistol would've been enough of a drawback for the +2S. As it is it feels hard to justify the EC from an efficiency point of view, I'd rather take the W4 A4 power fist EW beatstick chapter master accompanied by a chaplain (in larger games probably Grimaldus). Can't even take all three anymore with the EC using up a slot. It's extra sad for me because I just recently got the limited edition EC which is a frickin' amazing model. Might have to use it as Honour Guard Chapter Champion instead, I guess...

I lost my whole Deathwing Army to two Incubi Squads. Only unit I had left was a squad of Hammernators, which killed one squad, but died thanks to a mass of fire from lots of Warrior Squads.

I only ever face DE on few occasions, but it is always a losing game for me.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
[Expletive deleted]. How do they imagine that he's going to kill anyone with an S4 weapon? Sure, Instant Death yadda yadda, but S4 does not a melee powerhouse make.

By having a Master-Crafted sword that hits at initiative, is AP2 and causes ID on 6's?

I actually like that idea tvih. I think I will pick up a box of the old Sword Brethren, do them up as a 5 man Honor Guard, slap my EC in there as the chapter champion (he will probably be more useful there anways)

If I run the honor guard, one of them can get a banner right? That gives me an excuse to actually buy and paint up a pretty standard.

 Isean wrote:
I actually like that idea tvih. I think I will pick up a box of the old Sword Brethren, do them up as a 5 man Honor Guard, slap my EC in there as the chapter champion (he will probably be more useful there anways)

If I run the honor guard, one of them can get a banner right? That gives me an excuse to actually buy and paint up a pretty standard.

That just sounds like a load of awesome when it comes to modelling them. That's going to look amazing on the board.

Kangodo wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
[Expletive deleted]. How do they imagine that he's going to kill anyone with an S4 weapon? Sure, Instant Death yadda yadda, but S4 does not a melee powerhouse make.

By having a Master-Crafted sword that hits at initiative, is AP2 and causes ID on 6's?

One, the Master-Crafted is USELESS...he rerolls hits already with the chapter tactic. Two its only initiative when you fight at S4...which is WORSE than he was, because it used to be S6 at I5. Three, when he fights at initiative 1 to get the S6, he not only loses an attack now...he will most likely already be dead by whatever he is challenging.

Nearly every MC and SC he "should" be challenging will wipe the floor with him before he even hits if he tries to fight at I1. The rending CT is moot with him with the AP2. ID is nice, but only if he lives to hit, then succeeds to wound and hopefully roll a 6. Oh, also everything I want to instant kill with him is going to have an invul making it even less likely.

 tvih wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:

If it was an EW storm shield, 65 pts would make perfect sense, since SS is usually 30 points, and EW is 35ish. The one thing is that if you upgrade an Iron Halo, 30 pts to go from 4++ to 3++ is a bit steep, but getting EW on a 4W chapter master, especially if you give him artificer armor, is Nasty awesome.

SS 30 points? No, it's 15. Still, I'd gladly pay 65 for EW+SS.

30 pts on non-captain characters who don't start with a 4++, which is why I said it'd be a bit steep for captains and chapter masters, who do start with that 4++.

But yeah, 65 pts for EW and 3++ is sweet, especially if artificer armor is still relatively cheap.

If you can take that Relic on a bike too...GG for anything you can challenge on the enemy team.

Chapter Master + Bike (T5, fast) + Artificer armor (2+) + Relic (3++, EW) + Powerfist = Kills EVERYTHING.

Make him Iron Hands too, just so we can have some 6+ FNP and IWND.

Probably would come in around 250 points, but a 2+/3++ with 6+ FNP, IWND, EW, T5, Fast, S8, A4, W4 model? Worth every point and then some.

Puscifer wrote:

 Isean wrote:
I actually like that idea tvih. I think I will pick up a box of the old Sword Brethren, do them up as a 5 man Honor Guard, slap my EC in there as the chapter champion (he will probably be more useful there anways)

If I run the honor guard, one of them can get a banner right? That gives me an excuse to actually buy and paint up a pretty standard.

That just sounds like a load of awesome when it comes to modelling them. That's going to look amazing on the board.

Yup...that fact alone has me kind of pumped about the BTs being in the codex...I can get some cool formations and more units are open to me. Black Templars ALWAYS look good on the board. Thankfully I am a hobby lover before a power gamer (otherwise I would not have chosen BT years ago.)

Now that the Chapter Tactics got clarified, this book sounds really promising. Traits seem to be well balanced enough that there's no obvious no-rained choice, which is excellent.

 Isean wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
[Expletive deleted]. How do they imagine that he's going to kill anyone with an S4 weapon? Sure, Instant Death yadda yadda, but S4 does not a melee powerhouse make.

By having a Master-Crafted sword that hits at initiative, is AP2 and causes ID on 6's?

One, the Master-Crafted is USELESS...he rerolls hits already with the chapter tactic. Two its only initiative when you fight at S4...which is WORSE than he was, because it used to be S6 at I5. Three, when he fights at initiative 1 to get the S6, he not only loses an attack now...he will most likely already be dead by whatever he is challenging.

Nearly every MC and SC he "should" be challenging will wipe the floor with him before he even hits if he tries to fight at I1. The rending CT is moot with him with the AP2. ID is nice, but only if he lives to hit, then succeeds to wound and hopefully roll a 6. Oh, also everything I want to instant kill with him is going to have an invul making it even less likely.

I couldn't say if he was worth the points - he can both dish and out and take it from my experience with AP2 and Armour 2 characters. Also not sure about the SC's wiping the floor before he hits - many of the fast ones have difficulty with Armour 2+, Dark Eldar Archons do unless they have a Power Axe and so are not faster, I think Mephiston is only AP3? Celestine is AP3, Vulkan is AP3 (or was?), Llyeth ignores his armour but only wounds on a 5+. In return he ignores their non ++ saves, which is insta kill on some of them or on a 6+ if not normally? Which SCs am I missing that are faster then I5? Is the Catachan Guard Colonel who ignores armour faster?

But yeah the MCs should kill him unless he rolls really well on ++ saves, he probably should have Eternal Warrior to match the fluff but then they do get killed - look at the one in Helsreach - overwhelmed by orks......

Incubi will kill him

 Crimson wrote:
Now that the Chapter Tactics got clarified, this book sounds really promising. Traits seem to be well balanced enough that there's no obvious no-rained choice, which is excellent.

Agreed that the book sounds promising, but the fact that the prices of units is creeping up money wise, it becomes less promising.

Mr Morden, Mephiston is AP3.
All of my BA-characters are either AP3 or Unwieldy, even if I pay 275 points for them.

So yeah, no wonder I am pissed when I hear people complaining about AP2 hits at I5 because "they are only at S4 for a 140pnt model".

 Isean wrote:
One, the Master-Crafted is USELESS...he rerolls hits already with the chapter tactic. Two its only initiative when you fight at S4...which is WORSE than he was, because it used to be S6 at I5. Three, when he fights at initiative 1 to get the S6, he not only loses an attack now...he will most likely already be dead by whatever he is challenging.

Nearly every MC and SC he "should" be challenging will wipe the floor with him before he even hits if he tries to fight at I1. The rending CT is moot with him with the AP2. ID is nice, but only if he lives to hit, then succeeds to wound and hopefully roll a 6. Oh, also everything I want to instant kill with him is going to have an invul making it even less likely.

1. Hmm, that is weird. Why would they make it MC then?
2. It is actually better since it used to be AP3 which means I roll 3 2+ and continue to kill the Champion.
With WS6, I5, and 4 attacks on S4, AP2 you will probably be better at challenges than before.
3. With a 2+ he will be dead?

Siigh.. Black Templars, the only chapter in the Imperium that will complain for hitting on initiative with AP2.
Because how many characters can do that?

Kangodo wrote:
Mr Morden, Mephiston is AP3.
All of my BA-characters are either AP3 or Unwieldy, even if I pay 275 points for them.
So yeah, no wonder I am pissed when I hear people complaining about AP2 hits at I5 because "they are only at S4 for a 140pnt model".

Thats kinda what I thought - The EC should have a good or better chance against most ICs?

 Mr Morden wrote:
Thats kinda what I thought - The EC should have a good or better chance against most ICs?

I'm sure of it. Most SC have Sv2+ or aren't worth killing anyway.
But I'll be a nice guy: Every time he plays against me, he can take his +2 Strength and AP3 Sword.
I'll be less nice when I laugh at him every time I take my Save and kick the EC's ass.

Kangodo wrote:

Siigh.. Black Templars, the only chapter in the Imperium that will complain for hitting on initiative with AP2.
Because how many characters can do that?

Everyone in the Chaos Daemons codex for example. And I dunno if you will ever meet a cc character who isn't from that codex... And between Daemon Princes, Bloodthirsters and Khorne Heralds, the EC has a snowball's chance in hell. Yeah, maybe he can beat Captains, Tau Commanders and their ilk, but they are low-league players so no glory in doing that.

Swarmlord? He's no t a Daemon IIRC? Niether is Khorne AoBF, or Kharn, or Abaddon.

There are all the ones I listed as well to be fair:

Dark Eldar Archons
Mephiston
Vulkan
Celestine

These are all played alot in our group Also as I read it the EC is supposed to be good in CC but he is not a named unique legendary character but rather the best a Company or a Crusade have to offer - so really good but not the best

 Deadshot wrote:
Kharn, or Abaddon.

I don't think an Emperors Champion should be good enough to take down either of those going by the fluff?

No, but I was simply disproving the notion that the only combat characters that strike at Int with AP2 are Daemons.

 Deadshot wrote:
No, but I was simply disproving the notion that the only combat characters that strike at Int with AP2 are Daemons.

What notion? I mentioned them as examples ...

If anyone can take out The Despoiler in CC deserves to have the title of Manliest Man in the Galaxy of Man.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Kharn, or Abaddon.

I don't think an Emperors Champion should be good enough to take down either of those going by the fluff?

Sigismund took down Khârn. But no, fluff-wise Khârn should probably kill an "average" Emperor's Champion, but the issue now is that with 2 wounds, no Eternal Warrior and having to go into Hail Mary mode to kill MEQ it's just too unreliable. He lost much of his MEQ-stomping ability to become slightly better, turning a decent MEQ-stomper and shoddy Character-fighter into a semi-shoddy MEQ-stomper and a semi-shoddy Character-fighter. He just isn't that good at either of them.

Kangodo wrote:

With WS6, I5, and 4 attacks on S4, AP2 you will probably be better at challenges than before.

Lost two strength, gained AP2, otherwise same as before. Better in challenges against 2+ armour? Sure. Is he going to accomplish anything against stuff with 2+ armour that can actually fight back? Unless you luck out and roll a 6 to wound (and get past ++ saves), nope.

Kangodo wrote:
Mr Morden, Mephiston is AP3.
All of my BA-characters are either AP3 or Unwieldy, even if I pay 275 points for them.

You know, I'd take you a lot more seriously if you were right. Tycho ignores armour saves with all his attacks at initiative. He's 35 points more than the Emperor's Champion, can't hit at S6 or cause Instant Death, but comes with a Combi-Melta, an extra Wound and Rites of Battle. When was the last time you saw anyone take Tycho because of his awesome CC prowess?

Or, put it this way: for 20 points more than the Emperor's Champion, you could get Khârn.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
No, but I was simply disproving the notion that the only combat characters that strike at Int with AP2 are Daemons.

What notion? I mentioned them as examples ...

Everyone in the Chaos Daemons codex for example. And I dunno if you will ever meet a cc character who isn't from that codex...

Looking at the Chapter Tactics, if the are correct what do you guys think is the best once to represent Red Scorpions, or is it likley forge world will release a FAQ after the new codex is released?

I thinking Ultramarines due to their flexibility and because I use Sicarius as my Default HQ choice, though the Imperial Fists tactics look alright as well.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Lost two strength, gained AP2, otherwise same as before. Better in challenges against 2+ armour? Sure. Is he going to accomplish anything against stuff with 2+ armour that can actually fight back? Unless you luck out and roll a 6 to wound (and get past ++ saves), nope.

So you want him to be like the old Emperor's Champion?
Or is this just yet another "my unit isn't extremely strong on tournaments"-complaint?

You know, I'd take you a lot more seriously if you were right. Tycho ignores armour saves with all his attacks at initiative. He's 35 points more than the Emperor's Champion, can't hit at S6 or cause Instant Death, but comes with a Combi-Melta, an extra Wound and Rites of Battle. When was the last time you saw anyone take Tycho because of his awesome CC prowess?

I'm still right. Tycho doesn't even have an AP-value.
Btw, last time I took him into CC was 6 weeks ago.

Maybe you are approaching the Emperor's Champion from a wrong angle?

I'm pretty sure that FW will FAQ all the space marine characters... At least I am hoping so, it will be interesting to see what they do with Tyboros The Red Wake. At least Red Scorpions have an established parent legion. Not sure which one off hand. Check IA 6 or IA 9 for RS fluff. overall I am looking forward to the new codex.

IH chapter tactic looks like the go to option of making a truly badass chapter master if you also take into acount relics.

Example

Biker Chapter Master
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
6___5_4_5_4_5_4_10_2+/3++
Biked/ Thunder Hammer/ artificer armour/ storm shield/ relics
Eternal warrior
It will not die
Feel no pain

I'd hate to come up against that on the table top

Johnson101 wrote:
Looking at the Chapter Tactics, if the are correct what do you guys think is the best once to represent Red Scorpions, or is it likley forge world will release a FAQ after the new codex is released?

I thinking Ultramarines due to their flexibility and because I use Sicarius as my Default HQ choice, though the Imperial Fists tactics look alright as well.

With their near fantatical following of the Codex Astartes, I'd use Ultramarines.

I'm a bit peeved that we're going to have to mechanically ally ourselves to one primogenitor. I much preferred it when my Eternity Wardens did not have a set backstory, but now I have to write them one. On the plus side, at least the Ultramarines chapter trait wasnt as good as previously thought, having 1 each of the three markers you can cash in during a game is a very interesting mechanic (and presumably you can't use two in one turn).

Isean wrote:I actually like that idea tvih. I think I will pick up a box of the old Sword Brethren, do them up as a 5 man Honor Guard, slap my EC in there as the chapter champion (he will probably be more useful there anways)

If I run the honor guard, one of them can get a banner right? That gives me an excuse to actually buy and paint up a pretty standard.

Yeah, Finecast Sword Brethren are going to be my BT honour guard. Just gotta convert the Chainsword into something else, I guess. Magnets for the win. Though wrist magnets tend not to be all that... secure.

DogofWar1 wrote:
30 pts on non-captain characters who don't start with a 4++, which is why I said it'd be a bit steep for captains and chapter masters, who do start with that 4++.

Only for Space Wolves. C:SM Vanguard 15 points, Black Templars 15 points regardless of what model including HQs, 10 points for DA Veterans... I can't recall any HQs - outside of SW&BT - that can get it but don't have an invul save already.

Chapter Master + Bike (T5, fast) + Artificer armor (2+) + Relic (3++, EW) + Powerfist = Kills EVERYTHING.

Yup, that'd be frickin' sweet.

Mr Morden wrote:I couldn't say if he was worth the points - he can both dish and out and take it from my experience with AP2 and Armour 2 characters. Also not sure about the SC's wiping the floor before he hits - many of the fast ones have difficulty with Armour 2+, Dark Eldar Archons do unless they have a Power Axe and so are not faster, I think Mephiston is only AP3? Celestine is AP3, Vulkan is AP3 (or was?), Llyeth ignores his armour but only wounds on a 5+. In return he ignores their non ++ saves, which is insta kill on some of them or on a 6+ if not normally?

An Archon will most likely use a Huskblade to attack at I7 S3 AP2 and Instant Death. Add that Shadow or Clone Field or whatever the hell it is that reduces hits and the EC can't even hit him given his low amount of attacks. Lelith indeed only wounds on 5+ but has a billion attacks. Meph, Celestine and Vulkan for example do only have AP3, but most generic HQs tend to take AP2 in my experience. Meph would possibly lose, but Vulkan would probably end up being a tarpit duel. Celestine dies, only to rise again and go pester someone else.

So yes, while he may have some success against non-AP2 SCs, against most CC-kitted generic characters he'll lose.

I'm interested in seeing how grav weapons' anti-vehicle rule is worded. It's kinda big deal for Imperial Fists whether it counts as armour penetration roll and thus is affected by their tank-hunter ability.

 tvih wrote:

Isean wrote:I actually like that idea tvih. I think I will pick up a box of the old Sword Brethren, do them up as a 5 man Honor Guard, slap my EC in there as the chapter champion (he will probably be more useful there anways)

If I run the honor guard, one of them can get a banner right? That gives me an excuse to actually buy and paint up a pretty standard.

Yeah, Finecast Sword Brethren are going to be my BT honour guard. Just gotta convert the Chainsword into something else, I guess. Magnets for the win. Though wrist magnets tend not to be all that... secure.

I'd be more inclined to just use regular Marines and Templar them up using the BT sprue. Plenty of Power Weapons and bits on that to make them look amazing.

 Deadshot wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
No, but I was simply disproving the notion that the only combat characters that strike at Int with AP2 are Daemons.

What notion? I mentioned them as examples ...

Everyone in the Chaos Daemons codex for example. And I dunno if you will ever meet a cc character who isn't from that codex...

For someone who the community gave a pretty easy pass on the juvenile SC whine-fest, you're doing an aweful lot of calling out on your own. Remind me of my 14 yo students who argue wrong points until they're blue and then can't handle it when someone proves them wrong in one sentence. Ato isn't saying there aren't other at Init AP2 characters, he's saying those are the ones you'll see (as in what is taken in the current meta). Read what you're quoting.

I am thrilled to be able to run my Blood Angels as Raven Guard allied with White Scars. Hopefully Codex BA comes next year.. In the meantime, I'll get good use from Korvydae and Khan. I dig.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I'm a bit peeved that we're going to have to mechanically ally ourselves to one primogenitor. I much preferred it when my Eternity Wardens did not have a set backstory, but now I have to write them one. On the plus side, at least the Ultramarines chapter trait wasnt as good as previously thought, having 1 each of the three markers you can cash in during a game is a very interesting mechanic (and presumably you can't use two in one turn).

Actualy you could just pick a diffrent Chapter Tactic each gamem it looks like only the BT have to realy make thier choice from ground zero.

 Crimson wrote:
I'm interested in seeing how grav weapons' anti-vehicle rule is worded. It's kinda big deal for Imperial Fists whether it counts as armour penetration roll and thus is affected by their tank-hunter ability.

I really doubt it, I'm pretty sure Haywire isn't an armour penetration roll and that's the closest analogue we've got.

I'm not too fussed about it, the grav guns will be sparse enough that it won't matter much either way, and the Centurions have re-rolls by default due to grav amps.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I'm a bit peeved that we're going to have to mechanically ally ourselves to one primogenitor. I much preferred it when my Eternity Wardens did not have a set backstory, but now I have to write them one. On the plus side, at least the Ultramarines chapter trait wasnt as good as previously thought, having 1 each of the three markers you can cash in during a game is a very interesting mechanic (and presumably you can't use two in one turn).

Actualy you could just pick a diffrent Chapter Tactic each gamem it looks like only the BT have to realy make thier choice from ground zero.

Strictly speaking yes, but to build a decent list you will work around your Chapter Tactics. Most of them effect specific units more so than others, and so those lists' choices will often be dictated by their Chapter Tactics.

Also, White Scars may or may not having to decide in advance, as Khan can make all Bikes Troops but can't be taken under other CTs.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I'm a bit peeved that we're going to have to mechanically ally ourselves to one primogenitor. I much preferred it when my Eternity Wardens did not have a set backstory, but now I have to write them one. On the plus side, at least the Ultramarines chapter trait wasnt as good as previously thought, having 1 each of the three markers you can cash in during a game is a very interesting mechanic (and presumably you can't use two in one turn).

Actualy you could just pick a diffrent Chapter Tactic each gamem it looks like only the BT have to realy make thier choice from ground zero.

Strictly speaking yes, but to build a decent list you will work around your Chapter Tactics. Most of them effect specific units more so than others, and so those lists' choices will often be dictated by their Chapter Tactics.

Also, White Scars may or may not having to decide in advance, as Khan can make all Bikes Troops but can't be taken under other CTs.

Ok, BT & WS, but still there is alot of flexability there.
My army cound best be described as a Shrike/Kantor list, but I could do it as Raven Guard, Crimson Fist or as a Allied list with out changing a single model, I am just going to have to repaint 2 Tactical Squads and 2 Assualt Squads.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
No, but I was simply disproving the notion that the only combat characters that strike at Int with AP2 are Daemons.

What notion? I mentioned them as examples ...

Everyone in the Chaos Daemons codex for example. And I dunno if you will ever meet a cc character who isn't from that codex...

For someone who the community gave a pretty easy pass on the juvenile SC whine-fest, you're doing an aweful lot of calling out on your own. Remind me of my 14 yo students who argue wrong points until they're blue and then can't handle it when someone proves them wrong in one sentence. Ato isn't saying there aren't other at Init AP2 characters, he's saying those are the ones you'll see (as in what is taken in the current meta). Read what you're quoting.

Not cool on the roundabout insults but I'll let it go to avoid arguements. I was simply confused about his statement that you won't see any AP2 normal Int characters outside the Daemons. The bit I quoted mentioned nothing of meta, but in any case its been clarified now.No need to be snippy.

Ato, apolgies for misinterpretation

Also, I'm.not "calling out" I'm engaging in discussion. Just because I whinged earlier about 2 years of work, time and effort, not to mention money, was for nought, doesn't mean I'm not allowed to continue discussion.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

I'm not too fussed about it, the grav guns will be sparse enough that it won't matter much either way, and the Centurions have re-rolls by default due to grav amps.

But grav amps are for to wound rolls only, right?

 Crimson wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

I'm not too fussed about it, the grav guns will be sparse enough that it won't matter much either way, and the Centurions have re-rolls by default due to grav amps.

But grav amps are for to wound rolls only, right?

Well I was looking at the Grav Pistol is avalible to any who can take a "Special Pistol". This could put two in the hands of any Character, inluding Sarge.
That and the Combi-Grav.
I expext to see alot for the next 3-6 months

Does anyone else think that Captain's Combi-Grav gun looks slighly Necron is appearance?

Yeah you are right it does look very Necron like.

A gift from the Necron-Blood Angels alliance?

 Crimson wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

I'm not too fussed about it, the grav guns will be sparse enough that it won't matter much either way, and the Centurions have re-rolls by default due to grav amps.

But grav amps are for to wound rolls only, right?

Also for vehicle pounding, according to 40k Radio. In their test game 3 Centurions wrecked a Land Raider turn 1.

I wonder how many points grav pistols are going to be. IIRC from earlier in this thread, grav weapons are concusive. This would pair nicely with power fists/axes and other I1 weapons. That would be a nice edge over plasma.

 Nevelon wrote:
I wonder how many points grav pistols are going to be. IIRC from earlier in this thread, grav weapons are concusive. This would pair nicely with power fists/axes and other I1 weapons. That would be a nice edge over plasma.

Yes this could be nasty, Command or Vanguard squad loaded with 2 Gav-Pistols each supporting you TH/SS Character

Kangodo wrote:
Mr Morden, Mephiston is AP3.
All of my BA-characters are either AP3 or Unwieldy, even if I pay 275 points for them.

So yeah, no wonder I am pissed when I hear people complaining about AP2 hits at I5 because "they are only at S4 for a 140pnt model".

 Isean wrote:
One, the Master-Crafted is USELESS...he rerolls hits already with the chapter tactic. Two its only initiative when you fight at S4...which is WORSE than he was, because it used to be S6 at I5. Three, when he fights at initiative 1 to get the S6, he not only loses an attack now...he will most likely already be dead by whatever he is challenging.

Nearly every MC and SC he "should" be challenging will wipe the floor with him before he even hits if he tries to fight at I1. The rending CT is moot with him with the AP2. ID is nice, but only if he lives to hit, then succeeds to wound and hopefully roll a 6. Oh, also everything I want to instant kill with him is going to have an invul making it even less likely.

1. Hmm, that is weird. Why would they make it MC then?
2. It is actually better since it used to be AP3 which means I roll 3 2+ and continue to kill the Champion.
With WS6, I5, and 4 attacks on S4, AP2 you will probably be better at challenges than before.
3. With a 2+ he will be dead?

Siigh.. Black Templars, the only chapter in the Imperium that will complain for hitting on initiative with AP2.
Because how many characters can do that?

My guess is the sword is Mastercrafted because the Emperor's Champion won't always be in challenges, where his re-roll ability works.

 Crimson wrote:
I'm interested in seeing how grav weapons' anti-vehicle rule is worded. It's kinda big deal for Imperial Fists whether it counts as armour penetration roll and thus is affected by their tank-hunter ability.

As stated not really a big issue either way. Regular Devastators can't take grav weapons beyond a combi-grav or a grav pistol for the sergeant, and grav centurions get a reroll by default.

 Crimson wrote:
I'm interested in seeing how grav weapons' anti-vehicle rule is worded. It's kinda big deal for Imperial Fists whether it counts as armour penetration roll and thus is affected by their tank-hunter ability.

I don't have the exact wording of the rule, but from what we've been told, it removes a hull-point and immobilizes the vehicle on a roll of a 6.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

I'm not too fussed about it, the grav guns will be sparse enough that it won't matter much either way, and the Centurions have re-rolls by default due to grav amps.

But grav amps are for to wound rolls only, right?

Wounds AND armor penetration rolls.

Where can you find the new "relics" thanks

SMMSjosh14 wrote:
Where can you find the new "relics" thanks

Nowhere yet. They're covering those with wargear next week.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Mr Morden, Mephiston is AP3.
All of my BA-characters are either AP3 or Unwieldy, even if I pay 275 points for them.
So yeah, no wonder I am pissed when I hear people complaining about AP2 hits at I5 because "they are only at S4 for a 140pnt model".

Thats kinda what I thought - The EC should have a good or better chance against most ICs?

dunno, most non space marine ICs anyway. Unless instant death overrides eternal warrior. I think Lysander would get him. And if its true that you can have a space marine with EW that's a storm shield, give him a powerfist and he still wins. Or god forbid that space marine build where he gets a bike, artificer, 3+ eternal warrior storm shield, power fist. Disgusting. Give my ork warbiker and even ol ghazghul a run for their money.

I think it will be interesting to see the wargear list. I just was looking at the dark angel one and although I dont expect it to be the same I would be surprised if there is less stuff in codex space marines.

things like the Auspex and power field. We also have no idea on the relics, so really we are missing a majority of the information on how you can kit out a character. What if all the characters can get grav pistols? What if that is something that vanguard can get? How many points is it? Things like that would be helpful to know.

Also all of these re-rolls will really help any ground based force with fliers a little bit.

I am also happy about the techmarine change. So now it wont get in the way of my elites. I am also happy that they will most likely get the DA bolster defenses so that it is any piece of terrain.

Add a Thunder Hammer for the concussive. 5pts more.

Are we going to be able to put heavy flamers in our tac squads if we run salamanders. I want flamers and meltas everywhere.

Its still pretty tough to guess whats going to be the strong stuff in the new codex. My heart tells me the new cents are gonna be awesome, and my mind tells me with all the anti a2 weapons floating around, 70 to 80 points for a single guy, even with t5 and 2 wounds is too much to be competitive. Also the aa tanks being completely worthless against ground makes them a huge gamble at 75 points.

 lost_soul wrote:
Are we going to be able to put heavy flamers in our tac squads if we run salamanders. I want flamers and meltas everywhere.

No word on that yet. We may find out next week.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
40k Radio just confirmed that Nephytes are 10 points, which puts a full Crusader squad at 240 points before upgrades. 20 points cheaper than their previous naked counterpart and 80 points cheaper than their counterpart with grenades.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 lost_soul wrote:
Are we going to be able to put heavy flamers in our tac squads if we run salamanders. I want flamers and meltas everywhere.

No word on that yet. We may find out next week.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
40k Radio just confirmed that Nephytes are 10 points, which puts a full Crusader squad at 240 points before upgrades. 20 points cheaper than their previous naked counterpart and 80 points cheaper than their counterpart with grenades.

That's quite a bargain compared to the previous book.

Could you please find out anything regarding the Blood Ravens for me, if at all possible?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Isean wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
[Expletive deleted]. How do they imagine that he's going to kill anyone with an S4 weapon? Sure, Instant Death yadda yadda, but S4 does not a melee powerhouse make.

By having a Master-Crafted sword that hits at initiative, is AP2 and causes ID on 6's?

One, the Master-Crafted is USELESS...he rerolls hits already with the chapter tactic. Two its only initiative when you fight at S4...which is WORSE than he was, because it used to be S6 at I5. Three, when he fights at initiative 1 to get the S6, he not only loses an attack now...he will most likely already be dead by whatever he is challenging.

Nearly every MC and SC he "should" be challenging will wipe the floor with him before he even hits if he tries to fight at I1. The rending CT is moot with him with the AP2. ID is nice, but only if he lives to hit, then succeeds to wound and hopefully roll a 6. Oh, also everything I want to instant kill with him is going to have an invul making it even less likely.

I couldn't say if he was worth the points - he can both dish and out and take it from my experience with AP2 and Armour 2 characters. Also not sure about the SC's wiping the floor before he hits - many of the fast ones have difficulty with Armour 2+, Dark Eldar Archons do unless they have a Power Axe and so are not faster, I think Mephiston is only AP3? Celestine is AP3, Vulkan is AP3 (or was?), Llyeth ignores his armour but only wounds on a 5+. In return he ignores their non ++ saves, which is insta kill on some of them or on a 6+ if not normally? Which SCs am I missing that are faster then I5? Is the Catachan Guard Colonel who ignores armour faster?

But yeah the MCs should kill him unless he rolls really well on ++ saves, he probably should have Eternal Warrior to match the fluff but then they do get killed - look at the one in Helsreach - overwhelmed by orks......

Incubi will kill him

Archons can take the Huskblade. AP2 with Instant Death.

Man, you could run a pretty big horde with BT if you wanted. 240 for 20 models, can get 80 in at under 1000. I wouldn't be surprised to see some people running 120-140 models at 2K.

Orks just met their match, haha.

Puscifer wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 lost_soul wrote:
Are we going to be able to put heavy flamers in our tac squads if we run salamanders. I want flamers and meltas everywhere.

No word on that yet. We may find out next week.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
40k Radio just confirmed that Nephytes are 10 points, which puts a full Crusader squad at 240 points before upgrades. 20 points cheaper than their previous naked counterpart and 80 points cheaper than their counterpart with grenades.

That's quite a bargain compared to the previous book.

Could you please find out anything regarding the Blood Ravens for me, if at all possible?

They said no chapter who has an unknown parent chapter got it revealed.

Archons can take the Huskblade. AP2 with Instant Death.

Really when did that happen - missed that!!!? I thought the Huskblade was justa "power weapon" that caused instant death - so a Power Sword Husk Blade would be AP3 and only a Power Axe AP2? That would be great for my Archon if true

Just checked the FAQs - thanks sooo much for this

sorry bit off topic

DogofWar1 wrote:
Man, you could run a pretty big horde with BT if you wanted. 240 for 20 models, can get 80 in at under 1000. I wouldn't be surprised to see some people running 120-140 models at 2K.

Orks just met their match, haha.

There is a reason that build is known as the "Black Tide" (as compared to the Green Tide).

Templars also are better shots, AP off most Ork saves (5+ shirts) with everything but Shotguns, and swing first in combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Archons can take the Huskblade. AP2 with Instant Death.

Really when did that happen - missed that!!!? I thought the Huskblade was justa "power weapon" that caused instant death - so a Power Sword Husk Blade would be AP3 and only a Power Axe AP2? That would be great for my Archon if true

This is why people need to read FAQs for their army and everyone else's. It's been like that since liek the first or second 6th Edition FAQ for Dark Eldar.

You're still S3 though.

If they haven't been posted already...















From /tg/, http://boards.4chan.org/tg/res/26823458

According to Faiet 212 what 40k radio has isn't the final version.
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/08/some-things-to-know-about-space-marine.html#more

They are fantastic, I'm a huge fan of all the new codex artworks, and the space marine ones keep that trend going.

Those covers are gorgeous! If I have the money upon release I may just fork out! That is, if the faiet rumour that 40K radio has not got the final version. Otherwise I'll be satisfied with the regular.

If only there was a Blood Ravens version... GW would have no choice but to take my money.

 Brother Sergeant Bob wrote:
According to Faiet 212 what 40k radio has isn't the final version.
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/08/some-things-to-know-about-space-marine.html#more

I had just read that...very interesting. I'm sure this will result in a war between Natfka and 40K Radio now.

I'm now actually very happy with how the Chapter Tactics are written (if the 40K rumors hold true). While I'm still disappointed that the IF chapter tactic doesn't allow special ammo rerolls, at least its more in line with the UM tactics being one turn only. Given that bit of info, I'd say that many of these CT will be pretty balanced for the most part. The effectiveness of each tactic seems heavily tied in with the army build itself, which I find to be very interesting.

oh man, that Salamanders cover is awesome...
looks like i found the inspiration for my next Marine...

5 more days until the White Dwarf drops...
yeah!!!

cheers
jah

Those. Are. Some. Sexy. Covers.

 Brother Sergeant Bob wrote:
According to Faiet 212 what 40k radio has isn't the final version.
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/08/some-things-to-know-about-space-marine.html#more

I'd trust pretty much any source over Faeit. Faeit always cites 'anonymous sources' because he just goes and finds what others have already posted and reposts it taking credit for it himself. My guess is he saw some random person make an assertion and posted it up. That or it's a way to try and 'save face' because he hasn't provided us with anything on SM yet.

Puscifer wrote:
If anyone can take out The Despoiler in CC deserves to have the title of Manliest Man in the Galaxy of Man.

Pedro Kantor?

Nocturnus wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
If anyone can take out The Despoiler in CC deserves to have the title of Manliest Man in the Galaxy of Man.

Pedro Kantor?

Marbo, for one, but I imagine after Eldrad stole Abbadon's arms quite a few people could beat him.

 Deadshot wrote:
Does anyone else think that Captain's Combi-Grav gun looks slighly Necron is appearance?

Heresy! Burn the witch! Oh, wait...

I hope the background isn't white, I dislike that.

ClockworkZion wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:
Man, you could run a pretty big horde with BT if you wanted. 240 for 20 models, can get 80 in at under 1000. I wouldn't be surprised to see some people running 120-140 models at 2K.

Orks just met their match, haha.

There is a reason that build is known as the "Black Tide" (as compared to the Green Tide).

Templars also are better shots, AP off most Ork saves (5+ shirts) with everything but Shotguns, and swing first in combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Archons can take the Huskblade. AP2 with Instant Death.

Really when did that happen - missed that!!!? I thought the Huskblade was justa "power weapon" that caused instant death - so a Power Sword Husk Blade would be AP3 and only a Power Axe AP2? That would be great for my Archon if true

This is why people need to read FAQs for their army and everyone else's. It's been like that since liek the first or second 6th Edition FAQ for Dark Eldar.

You're still S3 though.

Orks long since met their match

They are the oldest current codex, and everyone else gets to pieplate them off the table (often ignoring their cover on the way ... )

Ork shirts are 6+ saves btw, not 5+. It's a calendar event when an ork gets to take an armour save (barring ard boyz and meganobz)

Greentide doesn't really work that well these days. 4th and 5th ed were ok, 6th really isn't. Black tide works a deal better, as 3+ armour will shrug most weapons and Marines get to be S 4 all the time, not just on the charge.


That said, orks are still cooler Just not as effective.

Biggest problem Green Tide ever had was time limits in tournaments and in personal games. Other than that it was pretty brutal. Especially with the migration to plasma the number of bullets people can fire in the two turns they get would just not be enough(especially with dat 5+ cover save)

180 models for like 1200 or so points. Most armies just dont have the volume of fire to deal with that.

Also the remove casualties from the front really hurt them but with good use of IC's you can help mitigate this(The IC unit slingshot comes to mind with an HQ on bike)

I heard the crimson fists dust jacket was for the regular limited edition book. Anyone know for sure on this?

I can see all of these being sold out really quickly.........

God damn that iron hands one is sweet.......

Seems to miss the Crimson Fists cover/dust-jacket (?)

Some of those covers look awesome, though I would've liked more 'flavor' for certain ones: Raven Guard with a jump pack and chainsword, White Scars marine on a bike.