tomjoad wrote: There has been, like, 5 pages of misunderstanding about this. I'd rather get back to reading Chaos players gripe than keeping hearing people claim that you couldn't use Vulkan if your Salamanders were painted orange or Tigurius if your Ultramarines were painted grey.
Firstly, of course you can. Don't be obtuse.
Secondly, how do you suspect this would be enforced? I am currently painting an Ultramarine army, but I am not using the official GW paint scheme. If my blue's aren't exactly matching the Codex, would you bar me from using Cato Sicarius?
Yellow, black, and white can all be very challenging colors to paint. Should a poorly painted Black Templars army be precluded from using Helbrecht? I imagine you would say "Sorry mate, those lads are more grey than black, I think. Nice try, though"?
OF COURSE NOT. GW will not make such a rule and frankly, I'm disappointed in the critical thinking ability of anybody who thinks they would. It's embarrassing.
You hit the nail on the head. You could use Chaos Space Marine models painted lime green as Ultramarines provided they had the correct war gear/weapons on the model. Power armor with a bolter is still power armor with a bolter.
Matter of fact, my SM army can currently be DA (they all have DA iconography but will be painted black), BA, several chapters out of the upcomming C:SM, and Chaos SM. I bought all of the unique SCs, units and vehicles to field these armies. I have Ravenwing Black Knights/RCS, Death Company, Shrike, Kantoe, Khan, Telion, Abbadon, a Defiler, just to name a few.
tomjoad wrote: The difference with Ezekial/DAs being that the entire codex has access to a ML3 psyker, where as many armies chosen out of C:SM will not if a standard libby can't upgrade. And, honestly, I think that will be the case. If so, that would be a bit of a shame, but the bigger shame will be that only Ultramarines (based on what we currently know) will have any access to Divination. Ther could be some wargear or abilities as yet unknown that change that, but cutting off large swathes of the codex from the best powers, yet still allowing a small segment to get them, would be very unfortunate.
Is Ezekial ML 3 with 3 powers and his special mindworm or is he ML3 with 2 powers and mindworm
Sorry for the repeated questions, I dont have a DA codex and know very little about the DA special characters
The more I think about this, the more I believe the new C:SM will simply be poorly written. Why?
The key new selling point, the main difference between the new and the old codexes, the chapter trait system, is just sloppy and unbalanced. (Keep in mind I say all this as an Ultramarines player!)
To start, as rumored, the Ultramarines are getting not only the most powerful and versatile traits, but traits that either make for bad gameplay, or make no sense from a fluff standpoint, or both. The tactical trait has your entire army magically become more accurate, easily trumping any of the other chapters, but with zero fluff justification (especially when you realize this makes tacticals more accurate than your veteran units). And the means of accomplishing this is through bogging down the shooting phase by letting you re-roll a significant number of dice every time you shoot. This is a very lazily written way of achieving a heavy-handed boost for the entire army.
The assault trait, well that one's pretty weak at least. But then the devastator trait has you moving and firing your heavy weapons for what reason exactly? How does this reflect anything about Ultramarines training or doctrine? I foresee very few people making use of either of these traits as well, leading one to wonder why they're even here. Giving you these options is potentially a good idea, but the execution is just very poor.
Then on top of that, you start limiting special characters needlessly, and with obviously unfair results for certain chapters. Iron Hands get zero characters, Imperial fists and their successors are balkanized, and the Ultramarines get access to nearly half a dozen characters on top of their already superior chapter traits. If characters were being limited in the interest of balance, that would be one thing. But I don't think anyone can argue the Iron Hands and the Ultramarines are equals in this system. This goes beyond sloppy writing, it actively discourages players from being creative or even taking certain chapters in the first place in a very obvious way.
While I could see the unbalanced and poorly thought-out chapter traits being the result of too little play-testing or a lack of creativity, limiting the use of special characters so harshly seems to be very deliberately done, and there's no way the writer could mistake the results.
I know I'm rehashing a lot of complaints that have already been voiced, and I hope that we're just not getting the whole picture somehow. But from what we know so far, taken together, I think the internal balance on this codex will end up being atrocious. It makes me not even want to play an army I've been collecting since second edition.
Deadshot wrote: I doesn't break my entire army, just prevents me taking more tjan 1 of my HQs at a time, as I have no generics.
Then take the non-generic model, and make a chapter master/libby/etc that has his same wargear and say "This model is a generic chaplain for this battle."
Or take only one HQ, like a good number of us do.
I have spent the last 18 months planning out and creating personalised characters for the sole purpose of having every Special character. I have hunted down bits and bought specific kits, converted up, lovenly painted, and written detailed and intricate fluff for each of them. For the express purpose of being able to field, any and all HQs in the dex, in particular pairings (IE, Calgar and Vulkan) due to fluff. Basically telling me to just generic, is like telling me to take my hobby work and put it where the sun don't shine, if you'll pardon my phrase. It'd be the equivilent of doing a full year's worth of overtime doing paperwork just to have the boss shred those papers for the hell of it.
While I could take just 1 HQ, it'll make it less interesting and more difficult as I am quite reliant on them. But that's a different can of worms.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: The more I think about this, the more I believe the new C:SM will simply be poorly written. Why?
The key new selling point, the main difference between the new and the old codexes, the chapter trait system, is just sloppy and unbalanced. (Keep in mind I say all this as an Ultramarines player!)
To start, as rumored, the Ultramarines are getting not only the most powerful and versatile traits, but traits that either make for bad gameplay, or make no sense from a fluff standpoint, or both. The tactical trait has your entire army magically become more accurate, easily trumping any of the other chapters, but with zero fluff justification (especially when you realize this makes tacticals more accurate than your veteran units). And the means of accomplishing this is through bogging down the shooting phase by letting you re-roll a significant number of dice every time you shoot. This is a very lazily written way of achieving a heavy-handed boost for the entire army.
The assault trait, well that one's pretty weak at least. But then the devastator trait has you moving and firing your heavy weapons for what reason exactly? How does this reflect anything about Ultramarines training or doctrine? I foresee very few people making use of either of these traits as well, leading one to wonder why they're even here. Giving you these options is potentially a good idea, but the execution is just very poor.
Not to whine about CSM, but really how is the CT any different from Marks of Chaos. Nurgle is far better than any of the other marks. Why wouldnt we to expect that one of the CT would be much better than the others.
I think the new C:SM book, based on rumors not only makes ultras the best but also makes SC of all types worse. For tournaments are you going to have to write down your CT? When do you pick it. If a C:SM player without any SC can just pick whatever they want right before the game while everyone else is rolling on their silly warlord table(mostly for a 1/6 chance of getting anything good). Tailor your list to what the enemy is bringing by changing your CT, utter BS.
Fluff rant, to add to yours
Ultras with assault doctrine getting fleet? When WS, RG, NL, AL, WE are all faster in the fluff than Ultras
Also, it just seems counter productive for sales. One player decides he wants to play exclusively White Scars. There's about a dozen models he has no use for and will never buy.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: The more I think about this, the more I believe the new C:SM will simply be poorly written. Why?
The key new selling point, the main difference between the new and the old codexes, the chapter trait system, is just sloppy and unbalanced. (Keep in mind I say all this as an Ultramarines player!)
To start, as rumored, the Ultramarines are getting not only the most powerful and versatile traits, but traits that either make for bad gameplay, or make no sense from a fluff standpoint, or both. The tactical trait has your entire army magically become more accurate, easily trumping any of the other chapters, but with zero fluff justification (especially when you realize this makes tacticals more accurate than your veteran units). And the means of accomplishing this is through bogging down the shooting phase by letting you re-roll a significant number of dice every time you shoot. This is a very lazily written way of achieving a heavy-handed boost for the entire army.
The assault trait, well that one's pretty weak at least. But then the devastator trait has you moving and firing your heavy weapons for what reason exactly? How does this reflect anything about Ultramarines training or doctrine? I foresee very few people making use of either of these traits as well, leading one to wonder why they're even here. Giving you these options is potentially a good idea, but the execution is just very poor.
Not to whine about CSM, but really how is the CT any different from Marks of Chaos. Nurgle is far better than any of the other marks. Why wouldnt we to expect that one of the CT would be much better than the others.
I think the new C:SM book, based on rumors not only makes ultras the best but also makes SC of all types worse. For tournaments are you going to have to write down your CT? When do you pick it. If a C:SM player without any SC can just pick whatever they want right before the game while everyone else is rolling on their silly warlord table(mostly for a 1/6 chance of getting anything good). Tailor your list to what the enemy is bringing by changing your CT, utter BS.
Fluff rant, to add to yours
Ultras with assault doctrine getting fleet? When WS, RG, NL, AL, WE are all faster in the fluff than Ultras
lord_blackfang wrote: I think it should have been obvious to anyone that fluff will trump fairness in this edition back when we saw the allies chart.
Even the fluff has issues in regards to representation - there is no fluff reason why the Ultramarines should feature more SCs, or better Traits than other chapters. They have them because GW have given them more attention over the years, and that has been carried forward and added to with each iteration of C:SM, there was nothing preventing GW from bringing the other featured chapters up their level other than a lack of will on their part. They could have added new SCs, or better yet, developed a system for making unique and interesting characters out of the generic HQs and then presented the SCs as "templates" of pre-chosen abilities and equipment.
Denying access to SCs if your army isn't of their chapter doesn't require that one chapter retain access to more, and better, SCs than the others.
Here's how I see the CT making sense (and I am totally trying to justify this for them). UM have to have something extra special wonderful about them... but it can't make them specialized (that's not their thing, after all). So its efficiency. Guilliman and Calgar are the masters of organization, logistics, and planning (after all). How do you show drop pods that fire a second sooner, bolters that are brought up quicker, marine who move with an efficiency and precision unmatched by the "lesser" chapters? You can't give them an extra turn (way too much), but you can reward them just a few extra shots here and there (reroll 1s and TL for tacticals). The efficient and deadly use of the tactical squads should be the hallmark of the UM. Think of it being more the Captain using his tactical marines better than using his veterans...not their aim being better/worse.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: The more I think about this, the more I believe the new C:SM will simply be poorly written. Why?
The key new selling point, the main difference between the new and the old codexes, the chapter trait system, is just sloppy and unbalanced. (Keep in mind I say all this as an Ultramarines player!)
Not to derail you but 40k Radio has stated that they haven't given us all the Chapter Tactics info. Then they stopped answering questions about the time I asked which ones they skimped on.
I get that, but there are totally better ways of doing it, which leads me to believe there wasn't a whole ton of thought put into this.
Just off the top of my head, I think giving tacticals Split Fire would have demonstrated their flexibility and economy of force better than twin-linking them. Having the Assault doctrine give you a re-roll on Reserve rolls for any fast attack units would represent logistical efficiency. And the Devastator doctrine making one unit of devs scoring could show the ability to shift to a defensive stance as needed.
And each of these independently seems, to me, to be weaker than any single other chapter's traits. But the fact that you have options to choose from on the fly before a game, and the array of special characters available, gives you flexibility that matches the Ultramarines fluff. And again, this was not hard to think up, and probably encourages a fairly balanced army composition and more equal use of the three doctrines depending on the mission.
Deadshot wrote: Also, it just seems counter productive for sales. One player decides he wants to play exclusively White Scars. There's about a dozen models he has no use for and will never buy.
As a White Scars player, I'm super happy to just stick to my Chapter Tactics without needing special snowflake characters as crutches for my fluff and/or power level.
I'm sure you've come up with a good fluff excuse for fielding Calgar and Vulkan together or whatever, but let's be honest here, it's still just an excuse to have X and Y rules together. Otherwise it wouldn't be an issue for you to field the Vulkan mini as a generic HQ dude, but clearly model use is not the issue here, the issue is not getting free twin-linked meltas.
Q: Has Marneus Calgar changed at all?
A: Calgar gets three warlord traits, his armor does not prevent him from preforming a sweeping advance, and he went up in points. He's a supreme badass but you pay for it.
Seriously...
Do I smell Matt Wards fishy fingers in this dex?
Sounds more like bollocks to me.
I do just want to point out that Vulkan is not a captain or Chapter Master. He goes where the Tome of Fire takes him. It is perfectly fluffy for Forgefather Vulkan He'stan to temporarily fight with other chapters as he goes about his journey looking for the Primarch's artefacts.
Deadshot wrote: I doesn't break my entire army, just prevents me taking more tjan 1 of my HQs at a time, as I have no generics.
Then take the non-generic model, and make a chapter master/libby/etc that has his same wargear and say "This model is a generic chaplain for this battle."
Or take only one HQ, like a good number of us do.
I have spent the last 18 months planning out and creating personalised characters for the sole purpose of having every Special character. I have hunted down bits and bought specific kits, converted up, lovenly painted, and written detailed and intricate fluff for each of them. For the express purpose of being able to field, any and all HQs in the dex, in particular pairings (IE, Calgar and Vulkan) due to fluff. Basically telling me to just generic, is like telling me to take my hobby work and put it where the sun don't shine, if you'll pardon my phrase. It'd be the equivilent of doing a full year's worth of overtime doing paperwork just to have the boss shred those papers for the hell of it.
While I could take just 1 HQ, it'll make it less interesting and more difficult as I am quite reliant on them. But that's a different can of worms.
You can still use your personalised characters in "casual” games, just as long your opponent is agreeing to it.
No, its nothing to do with that. Here's the simple fact, I had a vision of having 10 Company captains and 1 CM. As many SC as I could. I didn't care how they meazured up in game, because I know that Vulkan and Lysander are godsends compared to the likes of Shrike and Cassius who have niches. I did that because I wanted it to be my hobby. I would have done it if Sicarius made you autolose. I don't care about the competition and having the lastest and greatest. I did it because I love my army and have worked on it with my money, my time and my effort. No othe reason. I designed X and Y models, converted most of them, designed extensive fluff on why X and Y were X and Y, their relationships with each other, their background. Literally a whole world. It was not just an excuse to have this this and this.
For reference, I have a grand total of 2 flamers on Tac Squads, 1 Heavy Flamer on my Termies, a Meltagun on my rarely used command squad, either a HF or Meltagun on an.Ironclad Dread and occassionally a multimelta on a Land Raider variant. That is all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Redcrusair.
Another can.of worms, but depends on how strict its enforced. My only availible gamibg area is a GW.
We only have some of the information. The 40k podcast guys that have the codex even said as much (according to what has been re-posted here) So things might even out once more is reveled, or at the latest in a few weeks when we get the actual book.
With changing chapter tactics from a character dependent thing to a army based one, I can see the restrictions on special characters. It is a bit irritating. I was planning on putting together a Lysander counts-as to represent Captain Agemmon, of the Ultramarine's first company. I guess that gets scrapped. And the mechanics of characters like Cronos, Talion, and even Cassius are open enough that they could be dropped into any chapter without batting an eye. Heck, they fit better in some chapters then they do in the Ultras. If I asked you what chapter a T6, half bionic, chaplain wielding a MC combi flamer loaded with hellfire rounds came from, your first 3 answers are probably going to be Imp. Fists, Iron Hands, or Salamanders.
C:SM has always included a healthy dose of "make it your own." These rumors seem to be taking a step back from that. Hopefully more will be made clear. There is also supplements to consider, I think the piles will be evened out once those start dropping.
Deadshot wrote: Another can.of worms, but depends on how strict its enforced. My only availible gamibg area is a GW.
Urgh… you can only play at GW? Well you seem to be all out of luck then, friend.
Yep. The other options are a tiny gamers cafe that's an hourwalk, an hour's drive in another town and I am too young to drive, or play at home which involves bringing my only 40k playing friwnd on an hours drive to here.
SickSix wrote: I do just want to point out that Vulkan is not a captain or Chapter Master. He goes where the Tome of Fire takes him. It is perfectly fluffy for Forgefather Vulkan He'stan to temporarily fight with other chapters as he goes about his journey looking for the Primarch's artefacts.
And you can do that just fine via allies, apparently. You just give up the option of allying in Eldrad as well, or whatever the current power combo is.
SickSix wrote: I do just want to point out that Vulkan is not a captain or Chapter Master. He goes where the Tome of Fire takes him. It is perfectly fluffy for Forgefather Vulkan He'stan to temporarily fight with other chapters as he goes about his journey looking for the Primarch's artefacts.
And you can do that just fine via allies, apparently. You just give up the option of allying in Eldrad as well, or whatever the current power combo is.
True. But that requires more Salamanders. Vulkan spends a lot of time off by himself. But yeah, I guess we are stuck with allies.
But, I do actually support the notion of preventing powergaming combos. Like in 5th, when people used Kahn to get an outflanking Shrike(or whoever).
Not everyone likes it for their own fluff/powergaming reasons but I actually like it.
Numbers arn't the issue. With 5th Ed, I could run any combo I decided fitted my fluff, even if it was terrible. Cassius with Kantor and not Sternguard or Hammernators or TFC.or anything. I could mix my "chapters." I could always take 2 HQs. Now I can take 2, but only if they are Calgar and Sicarius who in my personal fluff, don't really fit and rules wise are not great either together. I can't take my custom Sgt Chronos either. And I have to take a trait.
Now if I want to run any HQ other than those 2 UM, I have to run them solo.
Basically the last 18 months has been made a waste of my life. In 1 fell swoop. I'd much rather have no traits, no Combat Tactics, no Centurions, no new Clampacks. All I wanted from the new codex was a few adjustments, a Warlord table and 6th Ed updates (Stormtalon added in, HP in profiles, etc.)
Deadshot wrote: Numbers arn't the issue. With 5th Ed, I could run any combo I decided fitted my fluff, even if it was terrible. Cassius with Kantor and not Sternguard or Hammernators or TFC.or anything. I could mix my "chapters." I could always take 2 HQs. Now I can take 2, but only if they are Calgar and Sicarius who in my personal fluff, don't really fit and rules wise are not great either together. I can't take my custom Sgt Chronos either. And I have to take a trait.
Now if I want to run any HQ other than those 2 UM, I have to run them solo.
Basically the last 18 months has been made a waste of my life. In 1 fell swoop. I'd much rather have no traits, no Combat Tactics, no Centurions, no new Clampacks. All I wanted from the new codex was a few adjustments, a Warlord table and 6th Ed updates (Stormtalon added in, HP in profiles, etc.)
no, you run one hq and one as a ally. you just need 4 troops to do it.
Q: Has Marneus Calgar changed at all?
A: Calgar gets three warlord traits, his armor does not prevent him from preforming a sweeping advance, and he went up in points. He's a supreme badass but you pay for it.
Seriously...
Do I smell Matt Wards fishy fingers in this dex?
Sounds more like bollocks to me.
I'm pretty sure if I remember all the info we got so far, it looks like the 3 chapter traits replaced God of War. And the armor thing applies to his Terminator armor, which he has to pay to upgrade into on top of his base points cost which I think is 275 points. I THINK he's at least 280 in the Terminator armor. There also has been no word so far that his statline changed so he looks like he shares the same number of base attacks and wounds as a regular Chapter Master.
Well, here's a bit of news that may or may not have already been posted before. I emailed Forgeworld, and they confirmed that the various space marine characters from the Badab War IA books would get updated after a new C:SM release. Obviously, they did not confirm that there was an upcoming release, and gave no time table as to when the update would occur. I play Red Scorpions, so that's why I asked them about it.
Deadshot wrote: Numbers arn't the issue. With 5th Ed, I could run any combo I decided fitted my fluff, even if it was terrible. Cassius with Kantor and not Sternguard or Hammernators or TFC.or anything. I could mix my "chapters." I could always take 2 HQs. Now I can take 2, but only if they are Calgar and Sicarius who in my personal fluff, don't really fit and rules wise are not great either together. I can't take my custom Sgt Chronos either. And I have to take a trait.
Now if I want to run any HQ other than those 2 UM, I have to run them solo.
Basically the last 18 months has been made a waste of my life. In 1 fell swoop. I'd much rather have no traits, no Combat Tactics, no Centurions, no new Clampacks. All I wanted from the new codex was a few adjustments, a Warlord table and 6th Ed updates (Stormtalon added in, HP in profiles, etc.)
no, you run one hq and one as a ally. you just need 4 troops to do it.
Which I don't have. I have 2.
Look, I know everyone really likes fluffy Chapter Traits, but I don't. I have been dreading it since I first learned what they are. They have affected my hobby in a very negative and discouraging way. I haven't worked that hard for similar to SCs, or "pick 1." I worked for my hobby, and all I ask is a pat on the back and a note slsaying "Good Job, enjoy!"
Not "Shut up, enjoy the shiny new Traits" which are, and in my opinion always were, bad. I genuinely believe, not factoring in my personal bias, Chapter Tactics is a much better system. That's nothing to do with my own situation, I just believe objectively its better than this new stuff.
Deadshot you still get your pat on the back, do you believe your hard hobby work will be less appreciated because what you can bring to the table top. You have clearly distinguished the two, you want credit for your efforts on the hobby side not actual game play.
Old Chapter Traits were a broken system and people often just played whatever they want regardless of what they should have been using for their specific chapter (as GW actually had came out and said what some Chapters should be using). This new system looks to address that by locking them into key archetypes and generally get it all on track in a way that makes sense and limits SC cheese in response to the changes (Shrike infiltrating Lysander was one IIRC).
Until I have the codex in my hands, I refuse to give into the "Chicken Little" syndrome (The sky is falling!). I also don't get why people are pissed about not being able to mix SC. First off, it reeks of WAAC. Second, and maybe more important, I find SC are simply too expensive to field with any regularity. Just my two cents, of course.
Nocturnus wrote: Until I have the codex in my hands, I refuse to give into the "Chicken Little" syndrome (The sky is falling!). I also don't get why people are pissed about not being able to mix SC. First off, it reeks of WAAC. Second, and maybe more important, I find SC are simply too expensive to field with any regularity. Just my two cents, of course.
Read back a few.pages and you'll find my postion scattered there.
Deadshot wrote: Numbers arn't the issue. With 5th Ed, I could run any combo I decided fitted my fluff, even if it was terrible. Cassius with Kantor and not Sternguard or Hammernators or TFC.or anything. I could mix my "chapters." I could always take 2 HQs. Now I can take 2, but only if they are Calgar and Sicarius who in my personal fluff, don't really fit and rules wise are not great either together. I can't take my custom Sgt Chronos either. And I have to take a trait.
Now if I want to run any HQ other than those 2 UM, I have to run them solo.
Basically the last 18 months has been made a waste of my life. In 1 fell swoop. I'd much rather have no traits, no Combat Tactics, no Centurions, no new Clampacks. All I wanted from the new codex was a few adjustments, a Warlord table and 6th Ed updates (Stormtalon added in, HP in profiles, etc.)
no, you run one hq and one as a ally. you just need 4 troops to do it.
Which I don't have. I have 2.
Look, I know everyone really likes fluffy Chapter Traits, but I don't. I have been dreading it since I first learned what they are. They have affected my hobby in a very negative and discouraging way. I haven't worked that hard for similar to SCs, or "pick 1." I worked for my hobby, and all I ask is a pat on the back and a note slsaying "Good Job, enjoy!"
Not "Shut up, enjoy the shiny new Traits" which are, and in my opinion always were, bad. I genuinely believe, not factoring in my personal bias, Chapter Tactics is a much better system. That's nothing to do with my own situation, I just believe objectively its better than this new stuff.
I could care less about the tactics, you are basically moaning that they made it so either you have to use 2 more troop choices, or not use 2 hq every game... uhhh so? you claim to not care how powerful they are, but refuse to call them something other then what they are... easy fix, your kantor, is now a captain named bob, with a PF and bolter... powie, done, move on...
Again, not abouthe rules. Its a principle. I've not worked for generics. I've worked for SCs. I expect SC. Like at a restaurant, you order a steak, pay for steak, expect a steak. Someone hands you a roast beef sandwich you have a problem.
So far the overall Codex rumors all seem to be a bit disappointing to me.
-Point reductions were good sounding at first, but now that we have to pay more for wargear it's almost pointless on almost every unit that had the reduction.
-No changes or irrelevant changes made to units that really needed them (Dreadnoughts, Assault Marines, Scouts, Vehicle Survivability etc..)
-Point increases on TH/SS Terminators. Seriously...why? Now I have to pay MORE to watch them die against Tau and Eldar.
-The new AA tanks seem pointless, as taking Stormtalons/Ravens and Flakk missiles will be more efficient.
-Grav weapons, seem decent albeit situational.
-Centurions -- I'm not sure on this until I play them. I think they will be better than people think. So there's some hope there.
-People wanting to play their ACTUAL army seem to be getting nerfed as well. Ultras getting multiple SC's and others getting 1 seems a bit odd in a Codex that was toted as being C:SM and not C:Ultramarines. Hopefully there's saving grace in the CT's that help with this. I'm hopeful that the 40k radio podcast on the 1st will shine a better light on this.
-No new SC's
These are all on top of chapter specific nerfs (Poor White Scars :/ ). Salamanders get to re-roll failed armor saves against flame weapons !?!? That's awesome, except I haven't actually been hit by a normal flamer since 5th -- now I just get murdered by Hellturkeys and D-Scythes
So, not a complaint or a reply to one. I play BT so I'm not sure all the normal codex rules so I feel a little of trying to imagine what my new army lists will be. The sheer number of new options will be insane.
Three questions. Are BT crusader squads still the only troop choice/scoring unit? A new heavy flamer model pic is going around. Are those an option for the heavy weapon in a tactical or crusader squad? And the vanguard vets can NOT charge after deep strike correct?
Deadshot wrote: What I'm annoyed about is they've taken away everything I enjoyed about my hobby.
What I'm annoyed about is that it seems everytime someone is done throwing a hissy someone else comes in to throw another one.
You want 2 SCs? You can have them. Just make 2 more squads of troops. That's like 10 Marines if you go small. No big whoop. The big whoop is that you're crying about it none stop. It won't bring us over to your side, infact the more I hear about it the more I don't care and don't want to read it anymore.
And I bet I'm not the only one.
Things change everytime a new book comes out. That's how things are. Deal with it like an adult instead of a spoiled child being told he can't have TWO bowls of ice cream for dessert.
Deadshot wrote: Again, not abouthe rules. Its a principle. I've not worked for generics. I've worked for SCs. I expect SC. Like at a restaurant, you order a steak, pay for steak, expect a steak. Someone hands you a roast beef sandwich you have a problem.
appes to oranges... you care about the "special" part if it, but they are your own... they are only special if you can use them in certain combinations as named people? bs, if you don't care about the rules factor then there is nothing, NOTHING diffrent between kantor and bob the chapter master, except the mini, that you converted...
Isean wrote: So, not a complaint or a reply to one. I play BT so I'm not sure all the normal codex rules so I feel a little of trying to imagine what my new army lists will be. The sheer number of new options will be insane.
Three questions. Are BT crusader squads still the only troop choice/scoring unit? A new heavy flamer model pic is going around. Are those an option for the heavy weapon in a tactical or crusader squad? And the vanguard vets can NOT charge after deep strike correct?
From what I've seen you have access to tactical squads and scouts, but no idea if you HAVE to take any Crusader Squads.
The Heavy Flamer is a Sternguard model.
And correct, Vanguard Vets can't charge after Deep Striking. Instead they don't suffer penalties for disordered charges, and their Sergeant can save another model from a challenge automatically.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I got a message from 40k Radio. Their still playing catch up from Gen Con so there is a good chance that there won't be a Q&A tonight.
And correct, Vanguard Vets can't charge after Deep Striking. Instead they don't suffer penalties for disordered charges, and their Sergeant can save another model from a challenge automatically.
This sounds odd. The trend is that weaker units usually get some improvement when new books come out. I understand that VV jump packs are getting cheaper, so maybe that's enough of a buff for them, but the rest of their rules seem much weaker. Do you think there is some additional rule or change we don't know about with them?
And correct, Vanguard Vets can't charge after Deep Striking. Instead they don't suffer penalties for disordered charges, and their Sergeant can save another model from a challenge automatically.
This sounds odd. The trend is that weaker units usually get some improvement when new books come out. I understand that VV jump packs are getting cheaper, so maybe that's enough of a buff for them, but the rest of their rules seem much weaker. Do you think there is some additional rule or change we don't know about with them?
The Vets dropped points too. They're now 22 points total with Jump Packs.
And they get bonuses from Chapter Tactics so the Raven Guard rules with them look good.
NickTheButcher wrote: -No changes or irrelevant changes made to units that really needed them (Dreadnoughts, Assault Marines, Scouts, Vehicle Survivability etc..)
All of those units are totally fine. All Assault Marines and Scouts need is a cost reduction-- and they're getting one! I use a unit of ten Scouts with bolters, and they are very effective.
NickTheButcher wrote: Point increases on TH/SS Terminators. Seriously...why? Now I have to pay MORE to watch them die against Tau and Eldar.
I agree this might have been a bit of an overreaction in the modern environment, but we all knew 45 point TH/SS Terminators were coming.
NickTheButcher wrote: The new AA tanks seem pointless, as taking Stormtalons/Ravens and Flakk missiles will be more efficient.
It sounds like the Stalker gets 4 shots per gun for 70-75 points. 8 anti-air shots for 70-75 points seems very competitive. You would have to spend 80 points on Flakk missiles alone to get that many shots, and they would likely be distributed inefficiently across the army. While some armies might want to take Flakk-- Imperial Fists, with Tank Hunters on their Devastators, definitely seem like a strong option here-- overall the Stalker at least seems potentially quite strong.
Yep. It helps that the two best-looking platforms for these weapons-- Bike Squads and Centurions-- have secondary weapon systems that are good against lightly armored units.
NickTheButcher wrote: People wanting to play their ACTUAL army seem to be getting nerfed as well. Ultras getting multiple SC's and others getting 1 seems a bit odd in a Codex that was toted as being C:SM and not C:Ultramarines. Hopefully there's saving grace in the CT's that help with this. I'm hopeful that the 40k radio podcast on the 1st will shine a better light on this.
I play an Iron Hands successor chapter and have since late 4th edition. I currently have a converted model for Tigurius, Telion, Sicarius, and Cassius, and has one coming for Marneus Calgar. So as you might imagine, I'm a little disappointed by this as well. But having actual rules for my army will hopefully more than compensate. The Iron Hands were more or less totally ignored in the last Codex. They didn't even get an expanded fluff box-- something that every other First Founding and some later Chapters did! Having rules recognition is IMO more important than the character options. While I would have liked to see Special Character options for Iron Hands (or counts-as), having Chapter Tactics is a nice element.
I still don't see a purpose to play anything other than Ultramarines with such a vastly superior rule..
Although the funniest thing to me is yet ANOTHER assault nerf in the form of Vanguard Vets. I can't imagine the trauma that had to have been caused to create such hysteria over the perceived power of the assault phase (btw 5th ed was a shooting edition also..).
Were Vanguard vets so overly powerful that they needed to lose the ability to assault after deep strike? Were so many Ivory Tower residents (GW designers) getting rolled day after day by hordes of Vanguard dropping from the skies to destroy their perfectly lined up Ultramarine tactical squads, such that they needed to be regulated to COMPLETE obsolesces? (as opposed to near-complete obsolesces..)
My only conclusion is that the current GW designers want to eradicate assault from the game.
Kirasu wrote: I still don't see a purpose to play anything other than Ultramarines with such a vastly superior rule..
Although the funniest thing to me is yet ANOTHER assault nerf in the form of Vanguard Vets. I can't imagine the trauma that had to have been caused to create such hysteria over the perceived power of the assault phase (btw 5th ed was a shooting edition also..).
Were Vanguard vets so overly powerful that they needed to lose the ability to assault after deep strike? Were so many Ivory Tower residents (GW designers) getting rolled day after day by hordes of Vanguard dropping from the skies to destroy their perfectly lined up Ultramarine tactical squads, such that they needed to be regulated to COMPLETE obsolesces? (as opposed to near-complete obsolesces..)
My only conclusion is that the current GW designers want to eradicate assault from the game.
I thought that was obvious since the 6e rulebook came out....
lord_blackfang wrote:
I'm sure you've come up with a good fluff excuse for fielding Calgar and Vulkan together or whatever, but let's be honest here, it's still just an excuse to have X and Y rules together. Otherwise it wouldn't be an issue for you to field the Vulkan mini as a generic HQ dude, but clearly model use is not the issue here, the issue is not getting free twin-linked meltas.
A poster made a similar point over on the B&C. And I'll reiterate what : said there:
If it's actually about the character, then it doesn't matter if he's just a generic Captain or Chapter Master stat line with the same or comparable equipment. Writing back stories for characters that justify them having the same exact equipment as an already existing character isn't some kind of literary endurance trial. I could fluffstify every SC in the book by this afternoon and convert them to my DIY chapter if I was so inclined. Ultimately, the practice of writing fluff should be divorced from the rules if you truly care about the characters. If you need to make adjustments to it because you like to use a specific Special Character's rules on the table top, then you make that adjustment. Anything else is invariably tied to some form of list optimization. You can't have it both ways.
Besides, this presents a challenge. Now he can write up a back story for Not-Helbrecht and explain why his company hates Not-Tigurius and won't work with any librarians.
Kirasu wrote: I still don't see a purpose to play anything other than Ultramarines with such a vastly superior rule..
Although the funniest thing to me is yet ANOTHER assault nerf in the form of Vanguard Vets. I can't imagine the trauma that had to have been caused to create such hysteria over the perceived power of the assault phase (btw 5th ed was a shooting edition also..).
Were Vanguard vets so overly powerful that they needed to lose the ability to assault after deep strike? Were so many Ivory Tower residents (GW designers) getting rolled day after day by hordes of Vanguard dropping from the skies to destroy their perfectly lined up Ultramarine tactical squads, such that they needed to be regulated to COMPLETE obsolesces? (as opposed to near-complete obsolesces..)
Assaulting out of Reserves is fundamentally dumb and bad for the game. There's a reason that practically all of it has been removed during 5th and 6th edition.
Deadshot wrote: What I'm annoyed about is they've taken away everything I enjoyed about my hobby.
What I'm annoyed about is that it seems everytime someone is done throwing a hissy someone else comes in to throw another one.
You want 2 SCs? You can have them. Just make 2 more squads of troops. That's like 10 Marines if you go small. No big whoop. The big whoop is that you're crying about it none stop. It won't bring us over to your side, infact the more I hear about it the more I don't care and don't want to read it anymore.
And I bet I'm not the only one.
Things change everytime a new book comes out. That's how things are. Deal with it like an adult instead of a spoiled child being told he can't have TWO bowls of ice cream for dessert.
You know what I'm annoyed about? People who piss all over anyone who tries to share their opinion on a discussion forum. You'll note that most of the posts made by the various "spoilt children" are in response to people like you haranguing them for daring to say something negative, or trying to cast them as WAAC cheesemongers with beards like Gimli.
Perhaps if certain people stopped with the passive-aggressive sneering and telling people they're wrong to be disappointed or annoyed by the changes, you'd have to endure less "crying".
Kirasu wrote: I still don't see a purpose to play anything other than Ultramarines with such a vastly superior rule..
Well it might not be as superior as you think. We have been expressly told that there are more to some of these chapter's rules (such as Ravenguard) than we have been told. We've only been told SOME of the bonuses so far, not ALL of them.
Kirasu wrote: I still don't see a purpose to play anything other than Ultramarines with such a vastly superior rule..
Although the funniest thing to me is yet ANOTHER assault nerf in the form of Vanguard Vets. I can't imagine the trauma that had to have been caused to create such hysteria over the perceived power of the assault phase (btw 5th ed was a shooting edition also..).
Were Vanguard vets so overly powerful that they needed to lose the ability to assault after deep strike? Were so many Ivory Tower residents (GW designers) getting rolled day after day by hordes of Vanguard dropping from the skies to destroy their perfectly lined up Ultramarine tactical squads, such that they needed to be regulated to COMPLETE obsolesces? (as opposed to near-complete obsolesces..)
My only conclusion is that the current GW designers want to eradicate assault from the game.
That's super easy to explain. As skill/competitive level goes up, the effectiveness of assault goes down sharply. This is why you often see new players with "battle force" armies struggle with melee heavy opponents. As you figure out what works and doesn't, you shift to more shooting based armies with more concentrated firepower, and melee starts to look increasingly weak overall. The problem is, GW player testers don't play at a level that they can see this happen. they play "beer and pretzel" style with battle force style lists, which is why melee is still so potent in their circles.
They need play testers who know how their rules really work for people who can and will exploit every inch of them.
lord_blackfang wrote:
I'm sure you've come up with a good fluff excuse for fielding Calgar and Vulkan together or whatever, but let's be honest here, it's still just an excuse to have X and Y rules together. Otherwise it wouldn't be an issue for you to field the Vulkan mini as a generic HQ dude, but clearly model use is not the issue here, the issue is not getting free twin-linked meltas.
A poster made a similar point over on the B&C. And I'll reiterate what : said there:
If it's actually about the character, then it doesn't matter if he's just a generic Captain or Chapter Master stat line with the same or comparable equipment. Writing back stories for characters that justify them having the same exact equipment as an already existing character isn't some kind of literary endurance trial. I could fluffstify every SC in the book by this afternoon and convert them to my DIY chapter if I was so inclined. Ultimately, the practice of writing fluff should be divorced from the rules if you truly care about the characters. If you need to make adjustments to it because you like to use a specific Special Character's rules on the table top, then you make that adjustment. Anything else is invariably tied to some form of list optimization. You can't have it both ways.
Besides, this presents a challenge. Now he can write up a back story for Not-Helbrecht and explain why his company hates Not-Tigurius and won't work with any librarians.
Exalted.
I'm with whomever originally said that. If you want SC models on the table then put some creative effort into it or repaint the darned things to their true chapter colors. Don't try and tell us that your army is ruined because you can't field Calgar and Vulkan together, instead take some time to really sit down, work out a real army list using the two and justify it. 40k is about being creative, and anyone who wants to sit here and cry all day and night about how the rules changed isn't being creative.
And play the game a few times with the new army rules before condemning everything to the "So bad it's gak" pile right away. I know Knee Jerking is an internet competetive sport, but seriously people, there is more to this game than the thin gloss topcoat that everyone spends all their time inspecting. You want to be good at this game, then you need to get past that top coat, be willing to experiment and be willing to play things different than the Internet tells you too. And you can't spend all your time crying online that the big mean Tau took your lunch money again.
Or as I've heard it said many a time to someone who was complaining too much at my last job "MAN THE F--- UP!".
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:My only conclusion is that the current GW designers want to eradicate assault from the game.
I thought that was obvious since the 6e rulebook came out....
Basically, they are just un-doing the horrible horrible mistake called "3rd Edition".
3rd Edition was poorly conceived, and obviously rushed. It was also an attempt to speed up play and sell more models. They increased model movement, shortened firing ranges, roughly halved the point costs, simplified close combat, and created sweeping single-turn resolutions to melees.
What this created was a phenomenon that didn't exist in the first two editions of the game: The "Assault Army".
Most players who gripe about "shooty editions" of the game either play a faction that didn't exist before 3rd Edition, or one that was radically changed by 3rd Edition into an "Assault Army". In 2nd Edition, every army could shoot, even Tyranids. In fact, 12 point termagants with strangelwebs were a 275 point mega-character like Abaddon's worst fear.
The assumption is that with 6th Edition, armies which had been converted to "Assault Armies" will be redesigned to give them effective shooting options again. Assault Troops in 2nd Edition were very specialized, and had to be used in the right place at the right time. It seems like 6th Edition's intent is to take away the "Reserve Win Button" function of Assault Troops and return them to their place as "Right Place, Right Time" forces. This will definitely be upsetting to the players who had built the "Assault Armies" over the last fifteen years.
But ultimately it's the best direction for the game. A lot of the problems with 40K's ruleset were created by 3rd Edition's drastic redesign to shift the focus from futuristic sci-fi combat to "Quick Resolution Fantasy Innn Spaaaace". "Assault Armies" and "Shooty Armies" and "A Little Bit of Both armies" were all essentially trying to play an entirely different game, using the same rules. Which played hell with the game's ability to even out the effectiveness and point costs, while still maintaining a simple and imprecise ruleset that was based around single D6 rolling and margins of error and success that were blocked into segments of approximately 16.7%.
Kirasu wrote: Were Vanguard vets so overly powerful that they needed to lose the ability to assault after deep strike? Were so many Ivory Tower residents (GW designers) getting rolled day after day by hordes of Vanguard dropping from the skies to destroy their perfectly lined up Ultramarine tactical squads, such that they needed to be regulated to COMPLETE obsolesces? (as opposed to near-complete obsolesces..)
VV got cheaper with jump packs, sure. But if the weapon upgrades from the DA dex are any indication, actually kitting them out with all the upgrades in the new box will be outrageously expensive. Add in that they got rolled into the Elite section, competing with the far better Sternguard, who on top of everything else, can still be made to score. And it looks like Vanguard are still going to be a stinker. Imagine how much of a target a squad of them infiltrated with Shrike will be? They lost Heroic Intervention, and can't assault until they suffer at least one round of enemy shooting.
I'm hoping that the withheld Raven Guard chapter traits offer something to counter this is in the codex. Still hoping there is something that will make them worth taking, but as of right now, I don't see it. Maybe with the BA Dex.
Sorry, formatting error made it kind of confusing. I said the portion I quoted. The similar argument the other poster made was complaining that GW had "ruined his fluff" with the change to the rules. But he'd literally written a "Counts As" back story for every special character in the book. In the end, a character is a character. Rules are rules. They're entirely divorced from one another. If the rules have changed which mean your tabletop army has to be structured slightly differently, that's one thing. And it could be irritating to have to buy, build and paint new models. But it has nothing to do with the fluff that's been written up to support why you use both characters on the battlefield.
Let's be realistic though. Rules changes have invalidated lists since the dawn of time. Every edition's codex has made something which was featured in a previous edition's invalid, either as a choice, or a combination. This is really small potatoes. This edition is actually fairly light on that. I don't think there are any 5th Edition models that were left out, or invalidated, by this codex. It's causing some griping because the Ultramarines have more characters than anybody else. But it's better than telling someone that their expensive character model is gone from the book.
the other thing to take note of, which I also said over on B&C, was:
The one important thing I think people need regarding this new book is perspective.
These traits aren't some kind of unquestioned lore, set down in stone from the dawn of time. The game has been around 25 years, and these are brand new. If you picked your chapter as Raven Guard successors years ago, or play a chapter that are listed in the fluff as Raven Guard successors, by no means are you required to play them with Raven Guard traits on the table top. They're just arbitrary numbers somebody at Games Workshop came up with and assigned. Igf you want to use the Ultramarines traits, or the Imperial Fists traits, it just means your chapter has developed, along the years, a propensity to fight according to the Codex Astartes (which is fairly normal since ninety something percent of Chapters are Codex Chapters to a majority extent). It doesn't make your models Ultramarines. Or even Ultramarines successors.
People need to stop getting so worked up over it. If you like the traits and special characters your favorite Chapter got, that's awesome. If you don't, and you use a different Chapter's instead, then more power to you. It isn't like anything has changed. Don't let GW's arbitrary decision process derail your ability to enjoy the game.
NickTheButcher wrote: -No changes or irrelevant changes made to units that really needed them (Dreadnoughts, Assault Marines, Scouts, Vehicle Survivability etc..)
All of those units are totally fine. All Assault Marines and Scouts need is a cost reduction-- and they're getting one! I use a unit of ten Scouts with bolters, and they are very effective.
Don't know that I agree. Scouts -- maybe But, really the 3 more points per model for +1 WS +1 BS and 3+ save makes normal Tac marines a better option unless I'm filling a niche option where Telion is involved. I'll have to see how they play out in the new dex, but Tac marines still seem like the lesser of 2 evils.
IMO assault marines still appear to be overcosted for what you will get, and they still can't take any melta. However, CT's sound like it will influence that (Hello Ravenguard allies! ).
This part of the post was mainly directed at Dreads not getting any attention at all. Again, certain chapter tactics may make them more valuable, but as it stands, they are a part of my army that never get used currently.
NickTheButcher wrote: The new AA tanks seem pointless, as taking Stormtalons/Ravens and Flakk missiles will be more efficient.
It sounds like the Stalker gets 4 shots per gun for 70-75 points. 8 anti-air shots for 70-75 points seems very competitive. You would have to spend 80 points on Flakk missiles alone to get that many shots, and they would likely be distributed inefficiently across the army. While some armies might want to take Flakk-- Imperial Fists, with Tank Hunters on their Devastators, definitely seem like a strong option here-- overall the Stalker at least seems potentially quite strong.
For me, it's all hinges on how they are used against infantry. If all they can do is shoot at flyers, than there are far more efficient units to take over them. If I can shoot at infantry, then yeah....that will be epic and I'll certainly field them.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:My only conclusion is that the current GW designers want to eradicate assault from the game.
I thought that was obvious since the 6e rulebook came out....
Basically, they are just un-doing the horrible horrible mistake called "3rd Edition".
3rd Edition was poorly conceived, and obviously rushed. It was also an attempt to speed up play and sell more models. They increased model movement, shortened firing ranges, roughly halved the point costs, simplified close combat, and created sweeping single-turn resolutions to melees.
What this created was a phenomenon that didn't exist in the first two editions of the game: The "Assault Army".
Most players who gripe about "shooty editions" of the game either play a faction that didn't exist before 3rd Edition, or one that was radically changed by 3rd Edition into an "Assault Army". In 2nd Edition, every army could shoot, even Tyranids. In fact, 12 point termagants with strangelwebs were a 275 point mega-character like Abaddon's worst fear.
The assumption is that with 6th Edition, armies which had been converted to "Assault Armies" will be redesigned to give them effective shooting options again. Assault Troops in 2nd Edition were very specialized, and had to be used in the right place at the right time. It seems like 6th Edition's intent is to take away the "Reserve Win Button" function of Assault Troops and return them to their place as "Right Place, Right Time" forces. This will definitely be upsetting to the players who had built the "Assault Armies" over the last fifteen years.
But ultimately it's the best direction for the game. A lot of the problems with 40K's ruleset were created by 3rd Edition's drastic redesign to shift the focus from futuristic sci-fi combat to "Quick Resolution Fantasy Innn Spaaaace". "Assault Armies" and "Shooty Armies" and "A Little Bit of Both armies" were all essentially trying to play an entirely different game, using the same rules. Which played hell with the game's ability to even out the effectiveness and point costs, while still maintaining a simple and imprecise ruleset that was based around single D6 rolling and margins of error and success that were blocked into segments of approximately 16.7%.
Unfortuneatly Phil Kelly never got this message.
5th edition DE are more combat focused than their 3rd edition dex
6th edition CSM added 5 new ground units (and a flyer) only one of them can shoot reasonably well (3 of them cannot shoot at all)
tomjoad wrote: There has been, like, 5 pages of misunderstanding about this. I'd rather get back to reading Chaos players gripe than keeping hearing people claim that you couldn't use Vulkan if your Salamanders were painted orange or Tigurius if your Ultramarines were painted grey.
Your wish is my command. Black Templars can refuse challenges but Night Lords can't. Discuss amongst yourselves.
I love all the complaining in this thread.... as a Chaos SM player (I know I know you all hate when we comment but listen) I actually like the concept behind this codex design. Sure the new units are weird (effectiveness of new tanks and Centurions to be seen - btw I HATE the centurion model). However, I wish this was the direction our Codex had went....at least with the new C:SM when you play a chapter you will feel as if your playing THAT chapter. Not like our codex where every army feels the same and is just painted different.
Well, I am hoping the Black Templars get something to help them get into close combat. I love them, but I have a shooting army in the Tau and I most likely won't spend the cash trying to make my Templars a worse shooter version. If they really do have as many close combat issues as it seems we are hearing, I will stick with Tau until a Black Templars supplement comes out and they get another chance to fix them.
A run reroll or boosts to only challenges is nothing compared to what we lose by getting rolled into the codex. And a one time use set of USRs from a SC still don't justify his point cost, especially after a point increase. Not a homebrew, and still plan on sticking to generics. I know we don't know everything yet, so here's to hoping Templars have some surprises left for us.
so BTs got sort of worse at cc because first they lost re roll to hits in 6th then with this new book they lost rage
i can understand everyone's argument "hey they can now use all of the space marines stuff" but there is no buff to CC which is what they are supposed to be good at.
being good in challenges does not help with the flow of the battle. i will agree making things cheaper is cool and all but it still does not make us better at cc than most armies.
we still aren't even as good as CSM, BA, DA, SW, or half the other dexs that aren't supposed to be that good at cc and do it better than BT.
i understand they have focused this edition more towards shooty armies but why even put BT in the dex if its going to be worthless to even take the option.
i might as well try and convert all of my marines CC marines to shooty marines or just get into a new dex all together
all im saying is it wouldn't have broken the game if they have just given BT a special banner like DA or just ONE USR that would have made the army some what of a competitive army with a CC element
quickfuze wrote: I love all the complaining in this thread.... as a Chaos SM player (I know I know you all hate when we comment but listen) I actually like the concept behind this codex design. Sure the new units are weird (effectiveness of new tanks and Centurions to be seen - btw I HATE the centurion model). However, I wish this was the direction our Codex had went....at least with the new C:SM when you play a chapter you will feel as if your playing THAT chapter. Not like our codex where every army feels the same and is just painted different.
I see where you are coming from, but I believe that's what the supplements are for which we are ALSO getting. So, over time hopefully CSM gets more individualism via the supplements.
NickTheButcher wrote: So far the overall Codex rumors all seem to be a bit disappointing to me.
-Point reductions were good sounding at first, but now that we have to pay more for wargear it's almost pointless on almost every unit that had the reduction.
-No changes or irrelevant changes made to units that really needed them (Dreadnoughts, Assault Marines, Scouts, Vehicle Survivability etc..)
-Point increases on TH/SS Terminators. Seriously...why? Now I have to pay MORE to watch them die against Tau and Eldar.
-The new AA tanks seem pointless, as taking Stormtalons/Ravens and Flakk missiles will be more efficient.
-Grav weapons, seem decent albeit situational.
-Centurions -- I'm not sure on this until I play them. I think they will be better than people think. So there's some hope there.
-People wanting to play their ACTUAL army seem to be getting nerfed as well. Ultras getting multiple SC's and others getting 1 seems a bit odd in a Codex that was toted as being C:SM and not C:Ultramarines. Hopefully there's saving grace in the CT's that help with this. I'm hopeful that the 40k radio podcast on the 1st will shine a better light on this.
-No new SC's
These are all on top of chapter specific nerfs (Poor White Scars :/ ). Salamanders get to re-roll failed armor saves against flame weapons !?!? That's awesome, except I haven't actually been hit by a normal flamer since 5th -- now I just get murdered by Hellturkeys and D-Scythes
Excuse me while I go dry my tears
My thought exactly.
But hey, LotD got a 5p discount, this means that some one somewhere might actually take them once
NickTheButcher wrote: Don't know that I agree. Scouts -- maybe But, really the 3 more points per model for +1 WS +1 BS and 3+ save makes normal Tac marines a better option unless I'm filling a niche option where Telion is involved. I'll have to see how they play out in the new dex, but Tac marines still seem like the lesser of 2 evils.
Scouts are good because they have Infiltrate and Scouts and can hence outflank. I run 10 Scouts with bolters in the old Codex and have found them very effective. Often, players have a rear objective guarded only by a small unit like a Combat Squad or small unit of Fire Warriors, Guardsmen, etc. Scouts can easily overrun and secure these sorts of objectives. The points reduction and LSS dedicated transport makes them even better. Are Scouts going to be the core of the army? No. But they got cheaper and better at performing the specialist role they're already good at. It sounds like Scout Bikers did too.
NickTheButcher wrote: IMO assault marines still appear to be overcosted for what you will get, and they still can't take any melta. However, CT's sound like it will influence that (Hello Ravenguard allies! ).
Assault Marines are good even without Combat Tactics, as indicated by Codex: Dark Angels-- a unit with two flamers and a combi-flamer in a Drop Pod is very cheap and very effective.
NickTheButcher wrote: This part of the post was mainly directed at Dreads not getting any attention at all. Again, certain chapter tactics may make them more valuable, but as it stands, they are a part of my army that never get used currently.
I've actually found Dreadnoughts to be very effective in 6th Edition, and am looking forward to adding It Will Not Die to mine!
NickTheButcher wrote: For me, it's all hinges on how they are used against infantry. If all they can do is shoot at flyers, than there are far more efficient units to take over them. If I can shoot at infantry, then yeah....that will be epic and I'll certainly field them.
Skyfire isn't even that much of a downside these days for a unit like this one. A lot of people forget that Skyfire applies to Skimmers as well as Flyers-- so all those Necron, Eldar, and Tau vehicles we've been seeing are valid targets as well.
quickfuze wrote: I love all the complaining in this thread.... as a Chaos SM player (I know I know you all hate when we comment but listen) I actually like the concept behind this codex design. Sure the new units are weird (effectiveness of new tanks and Centurions to be seen - btw I HATE the centurion model). However, I wish this was the direction our Codex had went....at least with the new C:SM when you play a chapter you will feel as if your playing THAT chapter. Not like our codex where every army feels the same and is just painted different.
I see where you are coming from, but I believe that's what the supplements are for which we are ALSO getting. So, over time hopefully CSM gets more individualism via the supplements.
Like the BL supplement that just came out. Everything got more expensive for no gain. Oooo how unique! No wonder abby always fails.
quickfuze wrote: I love all the complaining in this thread.... as a Chaos SM player (I know I know you all hate when we comment but listen) I actually like the concept behind this codex design. Sure the new units are weird (effectiveness of new tanks and Centurions to be seen - btw I HATE the centurion model). However, I wish this was the direction our Codex had went....at least with the new C:SM when you play a chapter you will feel as if your playing THAT chapter. Not like our codex where every army feels the same and is just painted different.
I see where you are coming from, but I believe that's what the supplements are for which we are ALSO getting. So, over time hopefully CSM gets more individualism via the supplements.
Like the BL supplement that just came out. Everything got more expensive for no gain. Oooo how unique! No wonder abby always fails.
Never said it was good -- that wasn't what the conversation was about. It was about being able to field a fluffy army with rules befitting that chapter/legion.
NickTheButcher wrote: So far the overall Codex rumors all seem to be a bit disappointing to me.
-Point reductions were good sounding at first, but now that we have to pay more for wargear it's almost pointless on almost every unit that had the reduction.
While the prices for many units ends up about the same, the lower base but higher upgrade costs do allow for more flexability when building units/lists.
-No changes or irrelevant changes made to units that really needed them (Dreadnoughts, Assault Marines, Scouts, Vehicle Survivability etc..)
Dreadnoughts and Vehicle survivability are honestly issues with the Walker/vehicle core rules, not something a single codex could really change. And Scouts and assault marines are cheaper, and have various chapter tactics that support them now.
-Point increases on TH/SS Terminators. Seriously...why? Now I have to pay MORE to watch them die against Tau and Eldar.
Because they needed an increase to balance them against TLLC terminators and tactical, which no-one generally takes anymore. and the increase is marginal, compared to what Space Wolves pay for THSS, and it's consistent with what BA and DA pay for theirs. It's not a surprise.
-The new AA tanks seem pointless, as taking Stormtalons/Ravens and Flakk missiles will be more efficient.
Not pointless, but not the deathdealers to fliers that some people demand. People ask for more and more powerful skyfire/interceptor weapons to deal with certain problem fliers, but anything that can deal with those problem fliers "efficiently" will wipe the skies clear of the more balanced fliers, making people stop taking any of the more balanced fliers. Though some players would cheer if noone took any fliers. And was pointed out, there are quite a few skimmers around to shoot at as well.
-Grav weapons, seem decent albeit situational.
Good. "Situational" is better than "strictly better" for promoting variety in lists.
-Centurions -- I'm not sure on this until I play them. I think they will be better than people think. So there's some hope there.
True, they are more tools for an army than face-crushers that some people want.
-People wanting to play their ACTUAL army seem to be getting nerfed as well. Ultras getting multiple SC's and others getting 1 seems a bit odd in a Codex that was toted as being C:SM and not C:Ultramarines. Hopefully there's saving grace in the CT's that help with this. I'm hopeful that the 40k radio podcast on the 1st will shine a better light on this.
It depends. SCs linked to chapter traits is not a bad thing to me, though some characters should not have been made Ultramarines to begin with- Telion and Chronus should have belonged to other chapters, but too late now.
-No new SC's
Iron Hands really could have used a SC, and it would have been nice to see some more SCs for other chapters, maybe bringing some old ones back like Chaplain Xavier. But the book already had 11Scs, and is gaining 3 more from the Templars getting rolled in.
These are all on top of chapter specific nerfs (Poor White Scars :/ ). Salamanders get to re-roll failed armor saves against flame weapons !?!? That's awesome, except I haven't actually been hit by a normal flamer since 5th -- now I just get murdered by Hellturkeys and D-Scythes White Scars went from Outflank on all units to Scout on bikes and dedicated transports (which grants outflank as well. Trading a 12" scout move for outflank on foot units seems fair to me. And true, you can't get as many bikes as troops as you want anymore, that is a hit, but Khan is much cheaper and stronger now, and now chapter masters on bikes unlock bike troops, not just captains.
Excuse me while I go dry my tears
NickTheButcher wrote: So far the overall Codex rumors all seem to be a bit disappointing to me.
-Point reductions were good sounding at first, but now that we have to pay more for wargear it's almost pointless on almost every unit that had the reduction.
While the prices for many units ends up about the same, the lower base but higher upgrade costs do allow for more flexability when building units/lists.
-No changes or irrelevant changes made to units that really needed them (Dreadnoughts, Assault Marines, Scouts, Vehicle Survivability etc..)
Dreadnoughts and Vehicle survivability are honestly issues with the Walker/vehicle core rules, not something a single codex could really change. And Scouts and assault marines are cheaper, and have various chapter tactics that support them now.
-Point increases on TH/SS Terminators. Seriously...why? Now I have to pay MORE to watch them die against Tau and Eldar.
Because they needed an increase to balance them against TLLC terminators and tactical, which no-one generally takes anymore. and the increase is marginal, compared to what Space Wolves pay for THSS, and it's consistent with what BA and DA pay for theirs. It's not a surprise.
-The new AA tanks seem pointless, as taking Stormtalons/Ravens and Flakk missiles will be more efficient.
Not pointless, but not the deathdealers to fliers that some people demand. People ask for more and more powerful skyfire/interceptor weapons to deal with certain problem fliers, but anything that can deal with those problem fliers "efficiently" will wipe the skies clear of the more balanced fliers, making people stop taking any of the more balanced fliers. Though some players would cheer if noone took any fliers. And was pointed out, there are quite a few skimmers around to shoot at as well.
-Grav weapons, seem decent albeit situational.
Good. "Situational" is better than "strictly better" for promoting variety in lists.
-Centurions -- I'm not sure on this until I play them. I think they will be better than people think. So there's some hope there.
True, they are more tools for an army than face-crushers that some people want.
-People wanting to play their ACTUAL army seem to be getting nerfed as well. Ultras getting multiple SC's and others getting 1 seems a bit odd in a Codex that was toted as being C:SM and not C:Ultramarines. Hopefully there's saving grace in the CT's that help with this. I'm hopeful that the 40k radio podcast on the 1st will shine a better light on this.
It depends. SCs linked to chapter traits is not a bad thing to me, though some characters should not have been made Ultramarines to begin with- Telion and Chronus should have belonged to other chapters, but too late now.
-No new SC's
Iron Hands really could have used a SC, and it would have been nice to see some more SCs for other chapters, maybe bringing some old ones back like Chaplain Xavier. But the book already had 11Scs, and is gaining 3 more from the Templars getting rolled in.
These are all on top of chapter specific nerfs (Poor White Scars :/ ). Salamanders get to re-roll failed armor saves against flame weapons !?!? That's awesome, except I haven't actually been hit by a normal flamer since 5th -- now I just get murdered by Hellturkeys and D-Scythes White Scars went from Outflank on all units to Scout on bikes and dedicated transports (which grants outflank as well. Trading a 12" scout move for outflank on foot units seems fair to me. And true, you can't get as many bikes as troops as you want anymore, that is a hit, but Khan is much cheaper and stronger now, and now chapter masters on bikes unlock bike troops, not just captains.
Excuse me while I go dry my tears
Responses in red.
Stop being as smart as your avatar. It makes things less fun.
Seriously.
Cut it out.
(But, really, the only thing I had a problem with is bikes - with the White Scars traits, they seem to be as good as standard Ravenwing bikers for cheaper - can't really complain about that)
Deadshot wrote: Again, not abouthe rules. Its a principle. I've not worked for generics. I've worked for SCs. I expect SC. Like at a restaurant, you order a steak, pay for steak, expect a steak. Someone hands you a roast beef sandwich you have a problem.
appes to oranges... you care about the "special" part if it, but they are your own... they are only special if you can use them in certain combinations as named people? bs, if you don't care about the rules factor then there is nothing, NOTHING diffrent between kantor and bob the chapter master, except the mini, that you converted...
Pretty much what he said. The special thing about the special characters are their special rules. If you don't care about the rules, there's just simply no problem left. The fluff and the models are still there and can still be used with generic entries. But it's obvious that despite statements to the contrary, clearly the rules are the issue here.
lord_blackfang wrote: I think it should have been obvious to anyone that fluff will trump fairness in this edition back when we saw the allies chart.
Eh? Quite possibly the biggest problem with the allies chart is that it DOESN'T represent fluff properly. It's why I was slightly bummed when the rumors said BT keeps their own ally table, as I was hoping to get around the whole BT & SoB allies table ridiculousness. It looks like I'll only really be able to use the SoB (once I get them - the ally table issue is the biggest reason I haven't so far) allies effectively with my CF, instead. Or for small games possibly with IG (who for me are also designed for use as allies rather than the main force).
It's been discussed before, but the BT/SoB relationship on the ally chart is actually the way it should be.
Lazy writers in the past latched on to the "Religious Zealots who hate Psykers" bit and figured "Oh, hai, they'd be bestest allies rite?"
But the problem is, the Black Templars and Ecclesiarchy actually believe in entirely different things. And if there's one thing that fanatical religious zealots have always been throughout history, it's readily accepting of different religious beliefs.
After all, it's not like Protestants and Catholics ever fought one another over ridiculously small differences. Or Sunnis and Shiites. Nope. Always bestest buds.
The reality is that the Black Templars run a ridiculously illegal military, anywhere from five to ten times their authorized strength. The Sisters of Battle preach a preposterous faith that the Black Templars know is wrong, and, to boot, are the galaxy's notorious busybodies and often extensions of the Inquisition. Why the heck would the Black Templars want them around?
Out of all the Space Marine Chapters, the Black Templars would be the least likely to ally with the Sisters.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: It's been discussed before, but the BT/SoB relationship on the ally chart is actually the way it should be.
Lazy writers in the past latched on to the "Religious Zealots who hate Psykers" bit and figured "Oh, hai, they'd be bestest allies rite?"
But the problem is, the Black Templars and Ecclesiarchy actually believe in entirely different things. And if there's one thing that fanatical religious zealots have always been throughout history, it's readily accepting of different religious beliefs.
After all, it's not like Protestants and Catholics ever fought one another over ridiculously small differences. Or Sunnis and Shiites. Nope. Always bestest buds.
The reality is that the Black Templars run a ridiculously illegal military, anywhere from five to ten times their authorized strength. The Sisters of Battle preach a preposterous faith that the Black Templars know is wrong, and, to boot, are the galaxy's notorious busybodies and often extensions of the Inquisition. Why the heck would the Black Templars want them around?
Out of all the Space Marine Chapters, the Black Templars would be the least likely to ally with the Sisters.
ALL of the Space Marines believe in entirely different things from the Ecclesiarchy. The point of the contention with the allies chart being what it is is that at the end of the day they're both still Imperials. The way the allies chart currently is, the Black Templars would rather ally with ALIENS (Tau, Eldar) and an army of PSYKERS (Grey Knights) then they would with the Sisters of Battle.
That is moronic, and there is zero fluff to support such an idiotic allies matrix. ALL Imperial armies should be, at the very worst, allies of convenience, while the xenos and chaos armies be Desperate Allies or Come the Apocalypse. That's the only set-up that makes sense.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: It's been discussed before, but the BT/SoB relationship on the ally chart is actually the way it should be.
Lazy writers in the past latched on to the "Religious Zealots who hate Psykers" bit and figured "Oh, hai, they'd be bestest allies rite?"
But the problem is, the Black Templars and Ecclesiarchy actually believe in entirely different things. And if there's one thing that fanatical religious zealots have always been throughout history, it's readily accepting of different religious beliefs.
After all, it's not like Protestants and Catholics ever fought one another over ridiculously small differences. Or Sunnis and Shiites. Nope. Always bestest buds.
The reality is that the Black Templars run a ridiculously illegal military, anywhere from five to ten times their authorized strength. The Sisters of Battle preach a preposterous faith that the Black Templars know is wrong, and, to boot, are the galaxy's notorious busybodies and often extensions of the Inquisition. Why the heck would the Black Templars want them around?
Out of all the Space Marine Chapters, the Black Templars would be the least likely to ally with the Sisters.
ALL of the Space Marines believe in entirely different things from the Ecclesiarchy. The point of the contention with the allies chart being what it is is that at the end of the day they're both still Imperials. The way the allies chart currently is, the Black Templars would rather ally with ALIENS (Tau, Eldar) and an army of PSYKERS (Grey Knights) then they would with the Sisters of Battle.
That is moronic, and there is zero fluff to support such an idiotic allies matrix. ALL Imperial armies should be, at the very worst, allies of convenience, while the xenos and chaos armies be Desperate Allies or Come the Apocalypse. That's the only set-up that makes sense.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: It's been discussed before, but the BT/SoB relationship on the ally chart is actually the way it should be.
Lazy writers in the past latched on to the "Religious Zealots who hate Psykers" bit and figured "Oh, hai, they'd be bestest allies rite?"
But the problem is, the Black Templars and Ecclesiarchy actually believe in entirely different things. And if there's one thing that fanatical religious zealots have always been throughout history, it's readily accepting of different religious beliefs.
After all, it's not like Protestants and Catholics ever fought one another over ridiculously small differences. Or Sunnis and Shiites. Nope. Always bestest buds.
The reality is that the Black Templars run a ridiculously illegal military, anywhere from five to ten times their authorized strength. The Sisters of Battle preach a preposterous faith that the Black Templars know is wrong, and, to boot, are the galaxy's notorious busybodies and often extensions of the Inquisition. Why the heck would the Black Templars want them around?
Out of all the Space Marine Chapters, the Black Templars would be the least likely to ally with the Sisters.
ALL of the Space Marines believe in entirely different things from the Ecclesiarchy. The point of the contention with the allies chart being what it is is that at the end of the day they're both still Imperials. The way the allies chart currently is, the Black Templars would rather ally with ALIENS (Tau, Eldar) and an army of PSYKERS (Grey Knights) then they would with the Sisters of Battle.
That is moronic, and there is zero fluff to support such an idiotic allies matrix. ALL Imperial armies should be, at the very worst, allies of convenience, while the xenos and chaos armies be Desperate Allies or Come the Apocalypse. That's the only set-up that makes sense.
As BlaxicanX said. It's not lazy writing, and even if it is... it's out there, and making the allies chart contrary to all existing inter-BT/SoB fluff is frankly slowed. Just because different kinds of religious fanatics don't get along in the real world, doesn't mean they can't in 40k when there are "worse offenders" out there to act as a common foe. Especially in the heat of battle, which is where all 40k games take place. Obviously. And even while the Imperium/Ecclesiarchy "officially" holds the Emperor as a God, it's not like the BT are crusading against them, are they? Nor are the other loyalist marines.
SoB & BT might not be the best of pals (nor were Excoriators and SoB in the novel "Legion of the Damned", for example), but that's what the "Allies of Convenience" level of allying is for. And the "as it should be" for being "Desperate Allies" makes little sense when indeed compared to Tau and Eldar. I mean, seriously? It's like they just started determining BT ally levels with a D6 all of a sudden. THAT'S lazy.
Frankly I'm thinking of just house-ruling the allies chart in terms of SoB & BT in our local games. I mean it's not like I didn't play a 2vs2 with necrons on my side just two weeks ago, and so forth. And given BT is so similar to C:SM now, there's hardly any balance issues or whatever to consider either. As much as I've avoided asking for house rules so far, I think I've had enough of this particular stupid limitation.
The Grey Knights have always been specifically excluded from the hatred of the Templars. Maybe it's assumed the Grey Knights have better things to do than worry about what the Black Templars are doing. And there are all kinds of legitimate arguments that the Black Templars should hate Eldar and Tau too. I won't disagree with that. Maybe the thinking is that at least you know the Tau aren't going to tattle on you for having a couple thousand more Space Marines hanging around than you're supposed to. Besides, the Black Templars are the galaxy's biggest hypocrits anyway. With a massive chapter fleet and multiple crusades tromping around the galaxy requiring all sorts of Astropaths and Navigators, they employ more psykers than any other chapter than perhaps the Ultramarines (just based on the fact that the Ultramarines have hundreds of regiments of guard quality PDF ad assumedly a navy to match).
"Abhor the witch.
Okay, unless we really need them. Or they are Grey Knights. Those guys seem legit."
But really, the difference between the Templars and the rest of the Space Marines comes in their level of devotion. These guys start speaking in tongues and having seizures like Pentacostals. And the guy who flips out the best gets a huge sword and some sweet armor. They're a bit off their rockers. Won't use cover, and apparently up until now were totally opposed to the idea of having fire support units like Devastators, Thunderfires, or Whirlwinds. Logic and reason are not the domain of the Black Templar. They are the Doritos of Space Marines. Crunch all you want. We'll make more.
The rest of the Space Marines just look at the Ecclesiarchy like "Well, that's kinda dumb, but it keeps the sheep in line so we don't have to. As long as they don't bother us, they're serving a purpose and the Imperium."
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Besides, the Black Templars are the galaxy's biggest hypocrits anyway.
You forgot about the Space Wolves.
The Space Wolves are a whole different animal (). I've got problems with the ridiculousness of the Space Wolves fluff, given that they get to ignore the rules of Space Marines any time it makes them cooler. "Space Marines can't get drunk. Their blood is super filtered." "Oh yeah? Well Space Wolves invented super booze to get drunk on." "Space Marines have to be recruited at a young age because they have to start organ implementation before the onset of puberty." "Oh yeah? Well Space Wolves can be recruited in their teens so they can bang chicks before being Space Marines." "Space Marines are heavily indoctrinated warriors with little to no personality and spend their entire lives preparing for, and going to, war." "Oh yeah? Well Space Wolves are fookin' Space Vikings! How ya'all losers like them apples?" "Space Marines have short cropped hair and shave their faces so they can properly seal their helmets without worrying about compromising the eviro-seals." "Oh yeah? Pony tails and beards all around!"
So yeah, the Space Wolves are another breed of ridicusilly entirely. But I don't really see where they are hypocrits. What do you refer to?
Okay, unless we really need them. Or they are Grey Knights. Those guys seem legit."
Abhor the witch, destroy the witch - unless he's kinda mandatory in getting to places where there are other witches to burn, in which case only abhor, but do not destroy. GK? Grey area (pun unintended), who the heck knows. Plus if you're to believe the GK codex, the BT wouldn't even know the GK exist, so go figure.
tvih wrote: Abhor the witch, destroy the witch - unless he's kinda mandatory in getting to places where there are other witches to burn, in which case only abhor, but do not destroy. GK? Grey area (pun unintended), who the heck knows. Plus if you're to believe the GK codex, the BT wouldn't even know the GK exist, so go figure.
I always like that, I just have the mental image of a Black Templar constantly grinding his molars on his BattleBarge because there is a psyker piloting it and he can't go in and smoosh it.
...or maybe no one has actually told the Black Templars what that the Navigators actually do in their little bubbles.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Besides, the Black Templars are the galaxy's biggest hypocrits anyway.
You forgot about the Space Wolves.
The Space Wolves are a whole different animal (). I've got problems with the ridiculousness of the Space Wolves fluff, given that they get to ignore the rules of Space Marines any time it makes them cooler. "Space Marines can't get drunk. Their blood is super filtered." "Oh yeah? Well Space Wolves invented super booze to get drunk on." "Space Marines have to be recruited at a young age because they have to start organ implementation before the onset of puberty." "Oh yeah? Well Space Wolves can be recruited in their teens so they can bang chicks before being Space Marines." "Space Marines are heavily indoctrinated warriors with little to no personality and spend their entire lives preparing for, and going to, war." "Oh yeah? Well Space Wolves are fookin' Space Vikings! How ya'all losers like them apples?" "Space Marines have short cropped hair and shave their faces so they can properly seal their helmets without worrying about compromising the eviro-seals." "Oh yeah? Pony tails and beards all around!"
So yeah, the Space Wolves are another breed of ridicusilly entirely. But I don't really see where they are hypocrits. What do you refer to?
Their hatred of Witchcraft, despite fielding more Psykers than any other chapter. It's more expounded on in the Heresy Novels, where they kick and scream about how awful psykers are and then get upset when people point at their Rune Priests. "No, no. They aren't Psykers. That is all natural, from the earth and stuff. Nothing wrong with that."
I'm not blaming them for it. Even an illegal army has to be able to talk to one another and get from place to place.
I'm just saying that perhaps the reports of their hatred of psykers have been greatly exaggerated. After all, another thing that religious fanatics have shown no shortage of is hypocrisy. Say one thing, do another.
Now that I mention that, I actually kinda like the idea of the Black Templars as a being led by a bunch of hypocritical wackos preaching a hatred of deviants and mutants and aliens and psykers, while secretly their highest commanders will consistently choose to compromise those beliefs if it furthers their agenda. I mean, after all, they will grudgingly ally with xenos and psykers, but wouldn't want those crazy broads with the fire hanging around to rat them out if they do.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Besides, the Black Templars are the galaxy's biggest hypocrits anyway.
You forgot about the Space Wolves.
So yeah, the Space Wolves are another breed of ridicusilly entirely. But I don't really see where they are hypocrits. What do you refer to?
I think he means the zealot aproach against the 1000 Sons use of psychic powers, while the Space Wolves runepriests are just Psykers with a different name.
i can understand everyone's argument "hey they can now use all of the space marines stuff" but there is no buff to CC which is what they are supposed to be good at.
No its not, BT are supposed to be a horde marine army with some sprinkled in good close combat. Wolves are better in close in the fluff, along with GK and Chaos. But Perform close combat, but the schtick is and has been overwhelming crusade, not elite band of ninjas.
Nocturnus wrote: Until I have the codex in my hands, I refuse to give into the "Chicken Little" syndrome (The sky is falling!). I also don't get why people are pissed about not being able to mix SC. First off, it reeks of WAAC. Second, and maybe more important, I find SC are simply too expensive to field with any regularity. Just my two cents, of course.
Read back a few.pages and you'll find my postion scattered there.
First, I tip my hat to you for spending the time, money, effort, etc. to make your army unique. As a long time Chaos player (since Slaves to Darkness for Rogue Trader) I know all too well the frustration that occurs when GW makes certain models/units obsolete. Chaos codex 3.5 is still the best Chaos book. When they released the 4th ed book, my heavily converted Nurgle terminators (for example) were no longer usable. However, if you NEED those SC to make your army work, I think there's another problem. Just my two cents, of course. Cheers.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Eh, that was ten thousand years ago. Live in the now. Why you gotta bring up old stuff?
Because it's not that it's ten thousand years ago, it's that they've been doing it for ten thousand years
The Edict of Nikea was rescinded. Hence why everyone has Librarians again.
Not really relevant when they never followed the Edict in the first place because they decided it didn't apply to them. Not, it appears, that anyone else followed the Edict either. The point is that they still use a ton of Psykers while decrying everyone else's Psykers as unclean abominations for being Psykers. That's where they get the leg up on the Templars, because at least the Templars are restricting them to externally supplied support staff rather than producing them themselves.
Anyway, "Who's the biggest hypocrite?" isn't exactly on topic, even if it is amusing.
Nocturnus wrote: Until I have the codex in my hands, I refuse to give into the "Chicken Little" syndrome (The sky is falling!). I also don't get why people are pissed about not being able to mix SC. First off, it reeks of WAAC. Second, and maybe more important, I find SC are simply too expensive to field with any regularity. Just my two cents, of course.
Read back a few.pages and you'll find my postion scattered there.
First, I tip my hat to you for spending the time, money, effort, etc. to make your army unique. As a long time Chaos player (since Slaves to Darkness for Rogue Trader) I know all too well the frustration that occurs when GW makes certain models/units obsolete. Chaos codex 3.5 is still the best Chaos book. When they released the 4th ed book, my heavily converted Nurgle terminators (for example) were no longer usable. However, if you NEED those SC to make your army work, I think there's another problem. Just my two cents, of course. Cheers.
Oh of course there is, my army sucks! The only reason I win at all is better tactics and good rolling, cuz the units are the uncompetitve crap.
i can understand everyone's argument "hey they can now use all of the space marines stuff" but there is no buff to CC which is what they are supposed to be good at.
No its not, BT are supposed to be a horde marine army with some sprinkled in good close combat. Wolves are better in close in the fluff, along with GK and Chaos. But Perform close combat, but the schtick is and has been overwhelming crusade, not elite band of ninjas.
Got to love those Flanderizations that keep pushing armies further and further into weird positions they never really held.
i can understand everyone's argument "hey they can now use all of the space marines stuff" but there is no buff to CC which is what they are supposed to be good at.
No its not, BT are supposed to be a horde marine army with some sprinkled in good close combat. Wolves are better in close in the fluff, along with GK and Chaos. But Perform close combat, but the schtick is and has been overwhelming crusade, not elite band of ninjas.
Got to love those Flanderizations that keep pushing armies further and further into weird positions they never really held.
*shrug* I play orks, so I have no problem having an army thats a delivery system for a few very mean characters, Bt can do that, and STILL take some of the fancy space marine toys.
its sure beats the hell out of needing to spam missiles and speeders like I've seen some local BT players do trying to fish a win out of the mall fountain.
no, you run one hq and one as a ally. you just need 4 troops to do it.
Which I don't have. I have 2.
Wouldn't you only need 1 more Troops choice if you include an allied attachment (assuming the rumours for allying with a different chapter are true)? I don't see what all the fuss is about. Just pick up a 5 man Scout squad and you're set, they're not even expensive in both money and point costs terns, and make good home objective holders. And face it, having only 2 Troops was probably on the low side in the first place.
no, you run one hq and one as a ally. you just need 4 troops to do it.
Which I don't have. I have 2.
Wouldn't you only need 1 more Troops choice if you include an allied attachment (assuming the rumours for allying with a different chapter are true)? I don't see what all the fuss is about. Just pick up a 5 man Scout squad and you're set, they're not even expensive in both money and point costs terns, and make good home objective holders. And face it, having only 2 Troops was probably on the low side in the first place.
Again that's another can of worms due to fluff (dying chapter on the brink type stuff).
no, you run one hq and one as a ally. you just need 4 troops to do it.
Which I don't have. I have 2.
Wouldn't you only need 1 more Troops choice if you include an allied attachment (assuming the rumours for allying with a different chapter are true)? I don't see what all the fuss is about. Just pick up a 5 man Scout squad and you're set, they're not even expensive in both money and point costs terns, and make good home objective holders. And face it, having only 2 Troops was probably on the low side in the first place.
Again that's another can of worms due to fluff (dying chapter on the brink type stuff).
Been reading your complaints for a bit now; you backed yourself plenty into that corner BEFORE the codex changed with all that 'fluff'.
Again that's another can of worms due to fluff (dying chapter on the brink type stuff).
At this point I'm just going to assume you're trolling, because you seem entirely too desperate to find new excuses to complain and disregard solutions offered.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: It's been discussed before, but the BT/SoB relationship on the ally chart is actually the way it should be.
Lazy writers in the past latched on to the "Religious Zealots who hate Psykers" bit and figured "Oh, hai, they'd be bestest allies rite?"
But the problem is, the Black Templars and Ecclesiarchy actually believe in entirely different things. And if there's one thing that fanatical religious zealots have always been throughout history, it's readily accepting of different religious beliefs.
After all, it's not like Protestants and Catholics ever fought one another over ridiculously small differences. Or Sunnis and Shiites. Nope. Always bestest buds.
The reality is that the Black Templars run a ridiculously illegal military, anywhere from five to ten times their authorized strength. The Sisters of Battle preach a preposterous faith that the Black Templars know is wrong, and, to boot, are the galaxy's notorious busybodies and often extensions of the Inquisition. Why the heck would the Black Templars want them around?
Out of all the Space Marine Chapters, the Black Templars would be the least likely to ally with the Sisters.
We have discussed this before but I don't agree There is a growing body of fluff buidling on the original codexes which sugests that the Black Templars are actually very much in line with the mainstream Imperial belief system and may in fact have originally been composed of those Astartes in the Imperial fists that had adopted the Emperor as Divine - something that can be seen starting to happen in the HH novels.
Is it not equally "lazy" to assume that all religious fanatics will be more interested in fighting each other than the actual enemies.
As others have noted - there are actual examples in the fluff (both Codex and BL) where the Black Templars and the Sororitas work together with little or no friction in a united goal against a common enemy - so maybe not Battle brothers - that should be at most reserved for other Astartes - but def Allies of Conveience. There are no examples that I am aware of where the BT and SOB fight each other as well as another enemy as the Desperate Allies would suggest.
As can be seen by the nonsense that is Tau being Battle Brothers with Astartes, rather than Allies of Conveince / Desperate Allies- the current flawed Allies Matrix is sadly soley about selling figures not expressing the actual fluff of the game...........
How is the Sisterhood going to be aware of the full extent of the Black Templars strength - its a suspicion only at the highest levels of the Inquisition and even they are less worried about them than openly flouting the rules (and firing on Imperial forces) Chapters such as the Space Wolves (who have actually fought the SOB) as the BT have never showed anything less than total devotion throughout their history.
Going back a bit OT - its a shame that they did not take this opportunity to fix the Allies matrix but rather compunded the error by highlighitng that the BT stays the same...............
Again that's another can of worms due to fluff (dying chapter on the brink type stuff).
At this point I'm just going to assume you're trolling, because you seem entirely too desperate to find new excuses to complain and disregard solutions offered.
There is no solution. Yes, I handicap myself with my fluff, but only so that I am reliant on my HQs out of preference. But to be told that I can't even do it anymore is distressing, upsetting and to be called a troll for feeling like that is insulting, so I ask you politely not to. I shoot "solutions" down because due to circumstances, they won't be solutions. That is all.
All I originally said was that I don't like this idea because it affects me in X, Y and Z ways and its bad for me because it negatively affects my hobby. It was other people who expanded with suggestions on X, Y and Z. All I did was answer and if that makes me a troll then so be it. But just don't say it.
I really don't like that you pretty much HAVE to take a First Founding chapter in order to take the SCs (unless you play BTs). What about if you have, under the 5th edition book, bought characters as a "counts as" for your own chapters. I bought Telion for my Fire Hawks (Ultramarines Successor) army and now you're telling me that he's illegal if he isn't blue? F*** that.
snorri788 wrote: I really don't like that you pretty much HAVE to take a First Founding chapter in order to take the SCs (unless you play BTs). What about if you have, under the 5th edition book, bought characters as a "counts as" for your own chapters. I bought Telion for my Fire Hawks (Ultramarines Successor) army and now you're telling me that he's illegal if he isn't blue? F*** that.
Let's try this again, from everything that we know:
1) You can take Ultramarine SCs for your Ultramarine Chapter.
2) You cannot take Ultramarine SCs for your White Scars Chapter.
3) You can take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As Ultramarine homebrew chapter.
4) You cannot take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As White Scars homebrew chapter.
Looking at all the rumors with a rational mind, this seems to be what everything boils down to.
I bought Telion and Lysander for my Crimson Fists.
At the end of the day, special rules or not, they are still nice looking models, ans if I'm fielding Sniper Scouts, Telion will be the Sgt leading them with or without special rules.
Let's try this again, from everything that we know:
1) You can take Ultramarine SCs for your Ultramarine Chapter.
2) You cannot take Ultramarine SCs for your White Scars Chapter.
3) You can take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As Ultramarine homebrew chapter.
4) You cannot take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As White Scars homebrew chapter.
Looking at all the rumors with a rational mind, this seems to be what everything boils down to.
Thanks for that clarification. Let's hope that this is how it will work in tournaments etc.
marv335 wrote:I bought Telion and Lysander for my Crimson Fists.
At the end of the day, special rules or not, they are still nice looking models, ans if I'm fielding Sniper Scouts, Telion will be the Sgt leading them with or without special rules.
They are indeed very nice models. Telion was especially easy to convert and turn into a generic marine by filing off his Ultra logos (one of the few plus points of resin models).
I suppose I could use the models as generic models rather than SCs. However I expect I will get fed up of having to explain this and end up doing something else. There are Fire Hawks SCs in a Forge World book (Badab War?). I just don't know if they are viable yet in the new codex, and i am loathe to spend £40/£50 on one book for the sake of one character.
Lucarikx wrote: Are we even sure these guys have the book? Maybe we should ask them to show us a picture of the cover.
Lucarikx
Yeah, actually isn't it a bit suspicious that we haven't seen any more pics recently? If they do have a copy of the book, they seem to be even better at GW at making sure nobody gets any sneaky blurry camera phone photos to post on the web. I can understand them keeping a tight wrap on it as an exclusive to promote 40K Radio or whatever, but seems strange we've not seen even one picure that looks as if it's from the final codex - or if those pictures are out there can someone let me know where to find them?
Also, do we know how they even got a copy of the book? Or is the only answer 'Top Secret'?
Lucarikx wrote: Are we even sure these guys have the book? Maybe we should ask them to show us a picture of the cover.
Lucarikx
Yeah, actually isn't it a bit suspicious that we haven't seen any more pics recently? If they do have a copy of the book, they seem to be even better at GW at making sure nobody gets any sneaky blurry camera phone photos to post on the web
Probably because radio stations aren't in the business of doing pictures
Personally I'm looking forward to this, assuming the rumours are true.
After having a read of the rules, the Centurions don't look as bad as feared, with the shots of the rear, they look a bit better, I think they are just victims of bad photography. S9 Ap2 weapons that strike at Initiative? That's going to hurt, and I can think of a few uses for that.
The sky is not falling, it's just a change. I've been here before, and it's certainly not the worst change between editions. 2nd-3rd holds that crown, and probably will forever more,
i can understand everyone's argument "hey they can now use all of the space marines stuff" but there is no buff to CC which is what they are supposed to be good at.
No its not, BT are supposed to be a horde marine army with some sprinkled in good close combat. Wolves are better in close in the fluff [...]
You have just unleashed a terrible evil that should have been left alone. Soapbox-rant incoming.
Spoiler:
The Black Templars were created from the most zealous of the Imperial Fists after the Heresy and led by a certain Sigismund, the first Emperor's Champion and skilled enough to earn the respect of the World Eaters in their gladiator rings, outfighting Khârn the Betrayer (his Oath Brother) in the process. He beat every single Champion of Chaos he went up against during the Siege of the Imperial Palace, the last of which is speculated to have been Khârn himself. The first High Marshal is thus the single most accomplished swordsmaster in the history of the Imperium this side of the Primarchs. It would stand to reason that a Chapter built on the foundation of the greatest swordsmaster in the Imperium would be pretty damn good in close combat.
Fluff-wise, Templars really aren't a horde marine army at all. Sure, there's 6000+ of them, but they're constantly spread out across the galaxy fighting the Eternal Crusade. Fluff-wise they're all about Armoured Spearheads (to get into close combat faster), Drop Pod Assaults (to get into close combat faster) and fleet actions (to get into boarding combat faster). The entire modus operandi of the Black Templars is to get into close combat fast and then beat the enemy there, to the point that they eschew Devastator Squads ( well, up until this Codex) and Scout Squads, unlike the Space Wolves. It would stand to reason that a Chapter that specializes almost exclusively in close combat would be better, on average, at close combat than a Chapter that specializes in short-range fighting.
Regarding the "hypocritical hatred of psykers", the Black Templars Codex states that (pg. 8, right-hand column) "Exactly how these Crusades communicate with each other is uncertain, though it is speculated that the Black Templars make use of only such Navigators and Astropaths as have been sacntifide by other organisations and are repentant of the curse of psychic powers.". So yeah, Space Wolves take the "most hypocritical Chapter" award once again.
On topic, have we heard anything about the statline of the Emperor's Champion other than his alleged 2A base? He had better WS than Chapter Masters in 4th edition, so I'm kinda curious as to whether he'll have WS7 or stay at WS6.
Lucarikx wrote: Are we even sure these guys have the book? Maybe we should ask them to show us a picture of the cover.
Lucarikx
Yeah, actually isn't it a bit suspicious that we haven't seen any more pics recently? If they do have a copy of the book, they seem to be even better at GW at making sure nobody gets any sneaky blurry camera phone photos to post on the web
Probably because radio stations aren't in the business of doing pictures
Such a 20th Century attitude to radio
In any case, even if they don't post the pics themselves I'm surprised not one person who has access to the Codex has been tempted to sneak a pic and post on a forum?
Deadshot wrote: Now,.on a different note, when do the prereleases go.up? I haven't seen a teaser yet but it should have gone up already by my count.
Teaser goes up the Monday before the pre-order window opens which is the same Saturday the White Dwarf comes out: the last Saturday of the month.
I thought tomorrow (24th Aug) was the last Saturday?
Nope, 31st is the last Saturday. Frankly can't wait for the new codex, seems like about everything i have currently will be getting better, and i might just get some vanguard vets to compliment my assault marines, considering they are getting a price cut from failcast. Actually might use 2 to finish my asault marines and use the last three for my own Blood Ravens Honor Guard.
no, you run one hq and one as a ally. you just need 4 troops to do it.
Which I don't have. I have 2.
Wouldn't you only need 1 more Troops choice if you include an allied attachment (assuming the rumours for allying with a different chapter are true)? I don't see what all the fuss is about. Just pick up a 5 man Scout squad and you're set, they're not even expensive in both money and point costs terns, and make good home objective holders. And face it, having only 2 Troops was probably on the low side in the first place.
Again that's another can of worms due to fluff (dying chapter on the brink type stuff).
If you can bring 5 man tacs as the rumors suggest, then those two 10 man tac squad you have can be fielded as 4 troops. You have no problems
I wasn't hugely impressed to see BT being rolled into the main dex but ill hold off on judgement to see what the new dex has to offer. pretty gutted the BT rumours werent true, though they did seem to good, and especially gutted to lose righteous zeal :(
The EC should be an absolute tank in close combat, as an already decent close combat soldier (fluffwise anyway) then gets basically possessed by the emperor and guided by his visions. He should be at least WS7/8, im hoping due to the loss of rage he isnt going from 4 to 3 attacks on the charge too.
heres hoping I can still build a pretty heavy assault themed army to capture the flavour of BT. I'm quite interested in the VV.
I've mental images of the new centurions being stripped of those god awful seige drills to be replaced with swords and hammers, and if theres an extra armour option -shields. That and if the legs are articulated/easy enough to convert into an advancing pose should make them look much nicer in my eyes anyway
i can understand everyone's argument "hey they can now use all of the space marines stuff" but there is no buff to CC which is what they are supposed to be good at.
No its not, BT are supposed to be a horde marine army with some sprinkled in good close combat. Wolves are better in close in the fluff [...]
You have just unleashed a terrible evil that should have been left alone. Soapbox-rant incoming.
The Black Templars were created from the most zealous of the Imperial Fists after the Heresy and led by a certain Sigismund, the first Emperor's Champion and skilled enough to earn the respect of the World Eaters in their gladiator rings, outfighting Khârn the Betrayer (his Oath Brother) in the process. He beat every single Champion of Chaos he went up against during the Siege of the Imperial Palace, the last of which is speculated to have been Khârn himself. The first High Marshal is thus the single most accomplished swordsmaster in the history of the Imperium this side of the Primarchs. It would stand to reason that a Chapter built on the foundation of the greatest swordsmaster in the Imperium would be pretty damn good in close combat.
Fluff-wise, Templars really aren't a horde marine army at all. Sure, there's 6000+ of them, but they're constantly spread out across the galaxy fighting the Eternal Crusade. Fluff-wise they're all about Armoured Spearheads (to get into close combat faster), Drop Pod Assaults (to get into close combat faster) and fleet actions (to get into boarding combat faster). The entire modus operandi of the Black Templars is to get into close combat fast and then beat the enemy there, to the point that they eschew Devastator Squads ( well, up until this Codex) and Scout Squads, unlike the Space Wolves. It would stand to reason that a Chapter that specializes almost exclusively in close combat would be better, on average, at close combat than a Chapter that specializes in short-range fighting.
Regarding the "hypocritical hatred of psykers", the Black Templars Codex states that (pg. 8, right-hand column) "Exactly how these Crusades communicate with each other is uncertain, though it is speculated that the Black Templars make use of only such Navigators and Astropaths as have been sacntifide by other organisations and are repentant of the curse of psychic powers.". So yeah, Space Wolves take the "most hypocritical Chapter" award once again.
Worst reasoning ever. Hey this one time there was a Greek named Achilles who was the best swordsman to ever live, yet another Greek named Odysseus was SUPER smart and clever, therefore ALL Greeks from then on MUST be mentally and physically superior to any other human.
Just because Sigismund was handy in combat doesn't mean all Black templars are the best. Also note that it never says he was the best, only that he defeated every champion he met. Not to reign on your parade but every chaos champion I own dies in challenges fairly easily
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Veteran Sergeant wrote: The Grey Knights have always been specifically excluded from the hatred of the Templars. Maybe it's assumed the Grey Knights have better things to do than worry about what the Black Templars are doing. And there are all kinds of legitimate arguments that the Black Templars should hate Eldar and Tau too. I won't disagree with that. Maybe the thinking is that at least you know the Tau aren't going to tattle on you for having a couple thousand more Space Marines hanging around than you're supposed to. Besides, the Black Templars are the galaxy's biggest hypocrits anyway. With a massive chapter fleet and multiple crusades tromping around the galaxy requiring all sorts of Astropaths and Navigators, they employ more psykers than any other chapter than perhaps the Ultramarines (just based on the fact that the Ultramarines have hundreds of regiments of guard quality PDF ad assumedly a navy to match).
"Abhor the witch.
Okay, unless we really need them. Or they are Grey Knights. Those guys seem legit."
But really, the difference between the Templars and the rest of the Space Marines comes in their level of devotion. These guys start speaking in tongues and having seizures like Pentacostals. And the guy who flips out the best gets a huge sword and some sweet armor. They're a bit off their rockers. Won't use cover, and apparently up until now were totally opposed to the idea of having fire support units like Devastators, Thunderfires, or Whirlwinds. Logic and reason are not the domain of the Black Templar. They are the Doritos of Space Marines. Crunch all you want. We'll make more.
The rest of the Space Marines just look at the Ecclesiarchy like "Well, that's kinda dumb, but it keeps the sheep in line so we don't have to. As long as they don't bother us, they're serving a purpose and the Imperium."
Veteran Sergeant wrote: The Space Wolves are a whole different animal (). I've got problems with the ridiculousness of the Space Wolves fluff, given that they get to ignore the rules of Space Marines any time it makes them cooler. "Space Marines can't get drunk. Their blood is super filtered." "Oh yeah? Well Space Wolves invented super booze to get drunk on." "Space Marines have to be recruited at a young age because they have to start organ implementation before the onset of puberty." "Oh yeah? Well Space Wolves can be recruited in their teens so they can bang chicks before being Space Marines." "Space Marines are heavily indoctrinated warriors with little to no personality and spend their entire lives preparing for, and going to, war." "Oh yeah? Well Space Wolves are fookin' Space Vikings! How ya'all losers like them apples?" "Space Marines have short cropped hair and shave their faces so they can properly seal their helmets without worrying about compromising the eviro-seals." "Oh yeah? Pony tails and beards all around!"
So yeah, the Space Wolves are another breed of ridicusilly entirely. But I don't really see where they are hypocrits.
There is nothing about this post that I don't like.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: The Space Wolves have no fluff I know of regarding decrying use of psykers in 40K. Where did you get that from?
That's because the only "fluff" that purports SW hatred for psykers is the from Black Library, none of which is actually cannon. The SW hatred for the Thousand Sons stems from the Emperor himself telling Leman Russ to go hunt them down for witchcraft. That's about as far as it goes in actual 40k fluff.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:It would stand to reason that a Chapter built on the foundation of the greatest swordsmaster in the Imperium would be pretty damn good in close combat.
Lots of things get lost over 10,000 years.
It would stand to reason that a Chapter that specializes almost exclusively in close combat would be better, on average, at close combat than a Chapter that specializes in short-range fighting.
The problem is, the Black Templars charge recklessly into weathering fire, eschew the use of cover, and covering fire. They also throw their least experienced warriors in with their significantly more heavily armored brothers. Heavily armored targets tend to draw more fire and heavier fire than less threatening targets. Basically, Neophytes are getting thrown into the grinder by being interspersed with a bunch of walking tanks,while only themselves wearing medium grade armor. The Black Templars also still fight "Crusade Style". It's important to note that the Ultramarines were denoted as being the Legion in the Great Crusade who won one of the higher tallies of battles and suffered the fewest casualties in the process of doing so. The Black Templars whole deal was "Screw the Codex", and their tactics and unit selections reflect that. Basically, they still fight with the Great Crusade mentality of "It doesn't matter how many of us you kill, we'll just make some more." Everyone else uses the Ultramarines' tactics as laid down in the Codex Astartes because they only get 1,000 guys and the individual guys are assets to be preserved, and not assets to simply be expended like the Black Templars view their Marines. The Black Templars may be a close combat oriented army, but their significantly higher casualty rates in combat would lead to an overall lower skill level amongst the Marines. A Space Wolf Grey Hunter is a veteran of centuries. A Black Templar Initiate? Probably not.
Regarding the "hypocritical hatred of psykers", the Black Templars Codex states that (pg. 8, right-hand column) "Exactly how these Crusades communicate with each other is uncertain, though it is speculated that the Black Templars make use of only such Navigators and Astropaths as have been sacntifide by other organisations and are repentant of the curse of psychic powers.". So yeah, Space Wolves take the "most hypocritical Chapter" award once again
Nope. Like it has been mentioned, the Space Wolves may have been hypocritical 10,000 years ago when they defied the Edict of Nikea, but no longer.
Ultimately, the rationalization of "abhoring the witch, but these guys are okay because they said they felt bad about it" is still a compromise of the value. It's a justifiable hypocrisy, but it's still a hypocrisy.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Everyone else uses the Ultramarines' tactics as laid down in the Codex Astartes
Er... about that.
I knew this would come. This is actually a common misconception amongst players who don't realize the Codex Astartes has many different parts to it. Many Chapters like the Space Wolves eschew the training and organizational doctrine of the Codex. That stems from Russ's objection to splitting his Legion.
The tactics are an entirely different story. Only the Black Templars seem to completely disregard the Codex when it comes to strategy and tactics. The Space Wolves, despite having their own organizational ideas still use all the basic Codex style formations. Their Assault, Tactical, Devastator, and Scout squads are simply arranged in a different hierarchy of experience levels. Given that they still deploy Assault Squads (Blood/Skyclaws), Tactical Squads (Grey Hunters), Devastators (Long Fangs), Scouts, and Veterans (Wolf Guard), it stands to reason that they would fight in a fairly similar manner to the rest of the Space Marines, and use the tactical doctrines which have made the Space Marines the greatest warriors in the Imperium. Well, except when Graham McNeill writes about them. But Graham McNeill apparently wasn't loaned a copy of Codex: Ultramarines when he went to write about them and the Codex.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Everyone else uses the Ultramarines' tactics as laid down in the Codex Astartes
Er... about that.
I knew this would come. This is actually a common misconception amongst players who don't realize the Codex Astartes has many different parts to it. Many Chapters like the Space Wolves eschew the training and organizational doctrine of the Codex. That stems from Russ's objection to splitting his Legion.
The tactics are an entirely different story. Only the Black Templars seem to completely disregard the Codex when it comes to strategy and tactics. The Space Wolves, despite having their own organizational ideas still use all the basic Codex style formations. Their Assault, Tactical, Devastator, and Scout squads are simply arranged in a different hierarchy of experience levels. Given that they still deploy Assault Squads (Blood/Skyclaws), Tactical Squads (Grey Hunters), Devastators (Long Fangs), Scouts, and Veterans (Wolf Guard), it stands to reason that they would fight in a fairly similar manner to the rest of the Space Marines, and use the tactical doctrines which have made the Space Marines the greatest warriors in the Imperium. Well, except when Graham McNeill writes about them. But Graham McNeill apparently wasn't loaned a copy of Codex: Ultramarines when he went to write about them and the Codex.
Ah, I was focusing more on the actual organizational part than the tactics part.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Everyone else uses the Ultramarines' tactics as laid down in the Codex Astartes
Er... about that.
I knew this would come. This is actually a common misconception amongst players who don't realize the Codex Astartes has many different parts to it. Many Chapters like the Space Wolves eschew the training and organizational doctrine of the Codex. That stems from Russ's objection to splitting his Legion.
The tactics are an entirely different story. Only the Black Templars seem to completely disregard the Codex when it comes to strategy and tactics. The Space Wolves, despite having their own organizational ideas still use all the basic Codex style formations. Their Assault, Tactical, Devastator, and Scout squads are simply arranged in a different hierarchy of experience levels. Given that they still deploy Assault Squads (Blood/Skyclaws), Tactical Squads (Grey Hunters), Devastators (Long Fangs), Scouts, and Veterans (Wolf Guard), it stands to reason that they would fight in a fairly similar manner to the rest of the Space Marines, and use the tactical doctrines which have made the Space Marines the greatest warriors in the Imperium. Well, except when Graham McNeill writes about them. But Graham McNeill apparently wasn't loaned a copy of Codex: Ultramarines when he went to write about them and the Codex.
Ah, I was focusing more on the actual organizational part than the tactics part.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Everyone else uses the Ultramarines' tactics as laid down in the Codex Astartes
Er... about that.
I knew this would come. This is actually a common misconception amongst players who don't realize the Codex Astartes has many different parts to it. Many Chapters like the Space Wolves eschew the training and organizational doctrine of the Codex. That stems from Russ's objection to splitting his Legion.
The tactics are an entirely different story. Only the Black Templars seem to completely disregard the Codex when it comes to strategy and tactics. The Space Wolves, despite having their own organizational ideas still use all the basic Codex style formations. Their Assault, Tactical, Devastator, and Scout squads are simply arranged in a different hierarchy of experience levels. Given that they still deploy Assault Squads (Blood/Skyclaws), Tactical Squads (Grey Hunters), Devastators (Long Fangs), Scouts, and Veterans (Wolf Guard), it stands to reason that they would fight in a fairly similar manner to the rest of the Space Marines, and use the tactical doctrines which have made the Space Marines the greatest warriors in the Imperium. Well, except when Graham McNeill writes about them. But Graham McNeill apparently wasn't loaned a copy of Codex: Ultramarines when he went to write about them and the Codex.
Ah, I was focusing more on the actual organizational part than the tactics part.
Everyone usually does.
Probably because that's the only part we as players really see mechanically. As I don't actually own a copy of the Codex Astartes as put down by Guillmon, I can't speak to what it says about tactics. I can easily see that Space Wolf scouts are nothing much like their more Codex brethren. For a Codex chapter, newbies start as scouts and move to blah de bloo de bluh, you know the rest. Can't really see the "divide your forces into battle groups and do this then this, this and this" portion.
The problem is, the Black Templars charge recklessly into weathering fire, eschew the use of cover, and covering fire. They also throw their least experienced warriors in with their significantly more heavily armored brothers. Heavily armored targets tend to draw more fire and heavier fire than less threatening targets. Basically, Neophytes are getting thrown into the grinder by being interspersed with a bunch of walking tanks,while only themselves wearing medium grade armor. The Black Templars also still fight "Crusade Style". It's important to note that the Ultramarines were denoted as being the Legion in the Great Crusade who won one of the higher tallies of battles and suffered the fewest casualties in the process of doing so. The Black Templars whole deal was "Screw the Codex", and their tactics and unit selections reflect that. Basically, they still fight with the Great Crusade mentality of "It doesn't matter how many of us you kill, we'll just make some more." Everyone else uses the Ultramarines' tactics as laid down in the Codex Astartes because they only get 1,000 guys and the individual guys are assets to be preserved, and not assets to simply be expended like the Black Templars view their Marines. The Black Templars may be a close combat oriented army, but their significantly higher casualty rates in combat would lead to an overall lower skill level amongst the Marines. A Space Wolf Grey Hunter is a veteran of centuries. A Black Templar Initiate? Probably not.
I think you're over-exaggerating how "little" BT values the chapter's battle-brothers. Neophytes are put through a meant grinder to prove their worth, perhaps, but a full-fledged battle-brother isn't a throwaway commodity. Salamanders got what, 1-2 initiates or so killed by refusing to help the Templars bring down a warboss in Helsreach, and losing those initiates pissed Grimaldus off so badly that instead of agreeing to acting as a chaplain for the Salamander rites like asked to (which apparently would've been an almost unheard of honor), he told them to get out of his city. Of course the warboss getting away was part of what got him pissed, but as I recall it was more the initiates (been meaning to re-read the book at some point, that ought to freshen up my recollections). And in general he had a quite hard time seeing his 100 strong force slowly being dwindled down into nothing. So while BT may seem reckless at times and willing to die to get the job done, it's hardly just "meh, we'll make some more."
It would stand to reason that a Chapter that specializes almost exclusively in close combat would be better, on average, at close combat than a Chapter that specializes in short-range fighting.
The problem is, the Black Templars charge recklessly into weathering fire, eschew the use of cover, and covering fire. They also throw their least experienced warriors in with their significantly more heavily armored brothers.
As opposed to Bloodclaws and Skyclaws, who go into battle without any sort of guidance at all (admittedly with Power Armour, but still)? Attrition is the Space Wolf hallmark, with their squad numbers going down the older they are until they're Lone Wolves. Furthermore, the only thing about Templars that suggest they "eschew the use of cover and covering fire" is one game mechanic that doesn't let them take cover saves, and you don't even have to pick it. They invented the Land Raider Crusader to be able to provide covering fire while advancing on the enemy safely, directly disproving your statement.
Worst reasoning ever. Hey this one time there was a Greek named Achilles who was the best swordsman to ever live, yet another Greek named Odysseus was SUPER smart and clever, therefore ALL Greeks from then on MUST be mentally and physically superior to any other human.
Just because Sigismund was handy in combat doesn't mean all Black templars are the best. Also note that it never says he was the best, only that he defeated every champion he met. Not to reign on your parade but every chaos champion I own dies in challenges fairly easily
If Achilles started a order of swordsmen and passed down his teachings to it, forming it in his image, with a focus on swordsmanship, I'd imagine that the order would be pretty damn good at swordsmanship.
The Chaos Champions at the Siege of the Imperial Palace were just SLIGHTLY more powerful than the "Chaos Champion" that's in your Codex. We're talking Khârn-level Champions. Sigismund went one on one with a ton of them and won every fight. What is Bjorn the Fell-Handed famous for, other than being really old? Getting his arm chopped off by an ally to save him from dying? The Black Templars are renowned for their fighting prowess in close combat, the Space Wolves are renowned for their ferociousness in close combat. Per definition, being more skillful in combat means that you're better in combat than someone less skilled.
Finally, there's been nothing mentioned that backs up the allegations that Space Wolves are better at Close Combat than the Black Templars at all.
On-topic:
Both DA and BA got 3-wound Chaplain variants, right? Yet we've only heard about 2-wound Chaplains for Vanilla (excluding Grimaldus and Cassius). That's rather interesting, wouldn't you think?
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Everyone else uses the Ultramarines' tactics as laid down in the Codex Astartes
Er... about that.
I knew this would come. This is actually a common misconception amongst players who don't realize the Codex Astartes has many different parts to it. Many Chapters like the Space Wolves eschew the training and organizational doctrine of the Codex. That stems from Russ's objection to splitting his Legion.
The tactics are an entirely different story. Only the Black Templars seem to completely disregard the Codex when it comes to strategy and tactics. The Space Wolves, despite having their own organizational ideas still use all the basic Codex style formations. Their Assault, Tactical, Devastator, and Scout squads are simply arranged in a different hierarchy of experience levels. Given that they still deploy Assault Squads (Blood/Skyclaws), Tactical Squads (Grey Hunters), Devastators (Long Fangs), Scouts, and Veterans (Wolf Guard), it stands to reason that they would fight in a fairly similar manner to the rest of the Space Marines, and use the tactical doctrines which have made the Space Marines the greatest warriors in the Imperium. Well, except when Graham McNeill writes about them. But Graham McNeill apparently wasn't loaned a copy of Codex: Ultramarines when he went to write about them and the Codex.
Ah, I was focusing more on the actual organizational part than the tactics part.
Everyone usually does.
Probably because that's the only part we as players really see mechanically. As I don't actually own a copy of the Codex Astartes as put down by Guillmon, I can't speak to what it says about tactics. I can easily see that Space Wolf scouts are nothing much like their more Codex brethren. For a Codex chapter, newbies start as scouts and move to blah de bloo de bluh, you know the rest. Can't really see the "divide your forces into battle groups and do this then this, this and this" portion.
Yes, the "do this then this, this and this" is Graham McNeill's horsepuckey that goes against all other written material on the codex that I've ever seen (and I still have my 2e copy of Codex:Ultramarines).
The details of chapter organization are just one small aspect of the codex. From what I recall, it's more of a compendium of "best practices", some written by Guilliman, some incorporated by him from other sources, including other primarchs, contemporary Imperial commanders, and historical sources.
As an example, if a copy of Sun Tzu's Art of War was still floating around, you better believe Guilliman would include it, along with his notes on it, other people s interpretations, practical applications, and examples from real-world implementation. That's what I've gathered from descriptions of it (outside of McNeill). A massive tome gathering all of mankind's knowledge on every aspect of warfare, dissected and distilled by (purportedly) one of the greatest military thinkers mankind has ever seen.
Edit: apologies as this is probably way off topic. It's just one of my pet peeves.
As much as I would love more BA chaplains (they are the best models in the game after all), not every marine codex needs to have exactly the same stuff.
I think BA and DA have pretty good fluff for their next tier chappys.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: He beat every single Champion of Chaos he went up against during the Siege of the Imperial Palace, the last of which is speculated to have been Khârn himself.
Just because Sigismund was handy in combat doesn't mean all Black templars are the best. Also note that it never says he was the best, only that he defeated every champion he met. Not to reign on your parade but every chaos champion I own dies in challenges fairly easily
Agreed. If you want rules to reflect fluff and the fluff is that this guy should be able to punk 1 wound 2 attack 4s across the board Champions of Chaos. That isn't very powerful at all.
So what if he supposedly punked kharn. Kharn gets punked all the time unless you are wielding a force weapon(he is great at killing rank and file or squarind off against guys with a force weapon[and now not eve ngood against force weapons])
Or how about we make Lucius the Eternal's rules reflect fluff?
The main reason that the Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark angels are their own book is because they had their own model lines in 2nd edition, thus they were kept as separate books. Not much about tactics or history or fluff, it's the model line.
Also, the players playing those 3 armies eclipses Templars or any other chapter (besides ultramarines) by huge degrees.
t's important to note that the Ultramarines were denoted as being the Legion in the Great Crusade who won one of the higher tallies of battles and suffered the fewest casualties in the process of doing so.
So the BT, or better the Imperial fists who became the BT, had to stay at Terra. How do you reap those victories at your safe home base?
The Black Templars may be a close combat oriented army, but their significantly higher casualty rates in combat would lead to an overall lower skill level amongst the Marines. A Space Wolf Grey Hunter is a veteran of centuries. A Black Templar Initiate? Probably not.
Rather a different skill learned than a lower level.
BT are closer to Legion tactics. You are saying the Legiones Astartes had a lower skill level than m40 codex adherent astartes because of casualty rates?
BT were/are: A theme of crusading knights in space who stick with the old - pre codex ways and assure the enemy is dealt with by making close and personal. They didn't need squad leaders as brothers in battle. Their command and vets are not elevated by a Master but their brethren.
Very different theme.
If the rumors come true GW wasted a chance to throw remnants of the old days into M40. Instead we have to endure toyish designs like the centurions. ?YAY?
Ultimately, the rationalization of "abhoring the witch, but these guys are okay because they said they felt bad about it" is still a compromise of the value. It's a justifiable hypocrisy, but it's still a hypocrisy.
Navigators and Astropaths weren't part of the ban at nikaea. BT just run with the "no witch in our ranks" rule and the distrust has condensed into the current view after 10 millenia. Where SW are in denial for 10 millenia....
Let's try this again, from everything that we know:
1) You can take Ultramarine SCs for your Ultramarine Chapter.
2) You cannot take Ultramarine SCs for your White Scars Chapter.
3) You can take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As Ultramarine homebrew chapter.
4) You cannot take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As White Scars homebrew chapter.
Let's try this again, from everything that we know:
1) You can take Ultramarine SCs for your Ultramarine Chapter.
2) You cannot take Ultramarine SCs for your White Scars Chapter.
3) You can take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As Ultramarine homebrew chapter.
4) You cannot take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As White Scars homebrew chapter.
Nicely put
Speculation. Everything that we know are two questions and answers from 40K Radio, both of which imply that SCs are limited specifically to their own Chapter, and until we get further clarification, claiming anything else is presumptuous.
As everyone else argues and complains about this and that chapter not being portrayed in the rules right, Iron Hands players just sit there content that they are no longer just a two sentence description read in passing.
Let's try this again, from everything that we know:
1) You can take Ultramarine SCs for your Ultramarine Chapter.
2) You cannot take Ultramarine SCs for your White Scars Chapter.
3) You can take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As Ultramarine homebrew chapter.
4) You cannot take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As White Scars homebrew chapter.
Nicely put
Speculation. Everything that we know are two questions and answers from 40K Radio, both of which imply that SCs are limited specifically to their own Chapter, and until we get further clarification, claiming anything else is presumptuous.
And thus, the real crux of the problem is said (again). Despite popular conception, no one here is saying that you can't use count as. The rules as they are being told to us, say you can't use count as. We'll know more fairly soon.
Let's try this again, from everything that we know:
1) You can take Ultramarine SCs for your Ultramarine Chapter.
2) You cannot take Ultramarine SCs for your White Scars Chapter.
3) You can take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As Ultramarine homebrew chapter.
4) You cannot take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As White Scars homebrew chapter.
Nicely put
Speculation. Everything that we know are two questions and answers from 40K Radio, both of which imply that SCs are limited specifically to their own Chapter, and until we get further clarification, claiming anything else is presumptuous.
It's not presumptuous, its deductive reasoning. 1 and 2 are confirmed 3 and 4 are pretty much 1 and 2 but in different paint schemes. GW can't control how I paint my marines as long as I adhere to 1 and 2. If someone says they won't play me because my Calgar isn't "Calgar" and my marines are red instead of blue but everything is modeled correctly then that person has issues and does not comprehend they are playing a fantasy table top war game.
Let's try this again, from everything that we know:
1) You can take Ultramarine SCs for your Ultramarine Chapter.
2) You cannot take Ultramarine SCs for your White Scars Chapter.
3) You can take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As Ultramarine homebrew chapter.
4) You cannot take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As White Scars homebrew chapter.
Nicely put
Speculation. Everything that we know are two questions and answers from 40K Radio, both of which imply that SCs are limited specifically to their own Chapter, and until we get further clarification, claiming anything else is presumptuous.
It's not presumptuous, its deductive reasoning. 1 and 2 are confirmed 3 and 4 are pretty much 1 and 2 but in different paint schemes. GW can't control how I paint my marines as long as I adhere to 1 and 2. If someone says they won't play me because my Calgar isn't "Calgar" and my marines are red instead of blue but everything is modeled correctly then that person has issues and does not comprehend they are playing a fantasy table top war game.
Then you'd be playing house rules. IFGW really does have such a rule than deviation from that rule is house rules. Claiming that GW "can't" make such a rule or "won't" based on past history is rather foolish as GW does stuff they haven't done with the rules on a regular basis. Instead we need to consider it as possible (if unlikely) and accept that if we deviate from it that we're playing a house ruled version of the game, not it's strict rules.
I'm not saying house rules are wrong, I'm just saying that we shouldn't be claiming to be automatically "right" about this until we get a better explanation.
Let's try this again, from everything that we know:
1) You can take Ultramarine SCs for your Ultramarine Chapter.
2) You cannot take Ultramarine SCs for your White Scars Chapter.
3) You can take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As Ultramarine homebrew chapter.
4) You cannot take Count-As Ultramarine SCs for your Count-As White Scars homebrew chapter.
Nicely put
Speculation. Everything that we know are two questions and answers from 40K Radio, both of which imply that SCs are limited specifically to their own Chapter, and until we get further clarification, claiming anything else is presumptuous.
It's not presumptuous, its deductive reasoning. 1 and 2 are confirmed 3 and 4 are pretty much 1 and 2 but in different paint schemes. GW can't control how I paint my marines as long as I adhere to 1 and 2. If someone says they won't play me because my Calgar isn't "Calgar" and my marines are red instead of blue but everything is modeled correctly then that person has issues and does not comprehend they are playing a fantasy table top war game.
Then you'd be playing house rules. IFGW really does have such a rule than deviation from that rule is house rules. Claiming that GW "can't" make such a rule or "won't" based on paster history is rather foolish as GW does stuff they haven't done with the rules on a regular basis. Instead we need to consider it as possible (if unlikely) and accept that if we deviate from it that we're playing a house ruled version of the game, not it's strict rules.
I'm not saying house rules are wrong, I'm just saying that we shouldn't be claiming to be automatically "right" about this until we get a better explanation.
I remember a time when everything was "house rules" and the game was much more entered around having fun. Now if I'm told at a GW store to go home because my marines arnt blue but clearly painted and modeled better than those playing "real" Ultra Marines then the game and player base has truly lost sight of what this game is about or atleast what it was about.
If GW wants me to play only with models painted the colors of the chapter, they better start selling pre-painted models, because ain't nobody got time for dat.
1hadhq wrote:
So the BT, or better the Imperial fists who became the BT, had to stay at Terra. How do you reap those victories at your safe home base?
The Imperial Fists didn't return to Terra until the very end of the Crusade, when the Emperor did. Almost all of the fighting was done by then. Nobody is suggesting the Imperial Fists performed poorly in the Crusade. But the Ultramarines clearly outperformed everyone else, managing to not only have one of the highest victory tallies, but also to have created the most stable area of space in their wake and increase their numbers far beyond any of their peers through effective recruiting and casualty minimization. Very few of the Legions did poorly in the Crusade. It's just that the Ultramarines did that much better.
[quoteA codex which is a copy of a copy of a copy.....
Perhaps in some cases. The Ultramarines have an original copy. Given how close they operate with their Successors, it stands to reason the Successors who maintain a good relationship with the Ultramarines also have fairly good copies. Ultramarines successors are 60-65% of all Space Marines. Reports of crappy, defective copies of the Codex Astartes have been greatly exaggerated.
BT are closer to Legion tactics. You are saying the Legiones Astartes had a lower skill level than m40 codex adherent astartes because of casualty rates?
Possibly. The quality level of Legion Marines was quite variable. Not all of them were even actual Space Marines, but instead modified regular humans. And over half of them were corrupted. They don't even get ATSKNF in 30K rules. So yeah, it's fairly safe to say the quality of Legionnaires was somewhat lower than the modern Space Marine. Perhaps not low enough to make a stat line difference in a game revolving around single D6 rolls and margins of error that vary by approximately 16.7%.
They didn't need squad leaders as brothers in battle.
Small unit leaders are the backbone of any modern military force. The lack of a coherent chain of command and experienced leaders is one of the Black Templars' most glaring deficiencies, lol.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
They invented the Land Raider Crusader to be able to provide covering fire while advancing on the enemy safely, directly disproving your statement.
Actually, it proves nothing than the fact that you don't really see what the Land Raider Crusader represents.
It's nothing more than a short ranged assault transport. The provide no covering fire whatsoever, lacking the Land Raider's long range firepower. It's designed to get up really close, then shoot a bunch of ammunition off while the Doritos inside charge out. This isn't really the concept of covering fires in the traditional military sense. It's simply a short range suppression instrument. The Crusader itself lacks any ability to engage enemy armor or deal with entrenched threats on the approach. The philosophy behind the LRC is that is is hopefully tough enough to get up close.
Ultimately, the LRC doesn't demonstrate any grasp of combined arms doctrine. It was just an adaptation for the Black Templars to stuff more dudes into a Land Raider. The classic LR is superior in almost every way, in terms of assault transport design. It has a strong, intermediate range anti-armor capability, as well the ability to provide suppressive anti-infantry firepower at both close to medium range. The LRC is a specialized close assault platform, nothing more.Understandably, the BTs own regular LRs too. But the idea that the LRC was some kind of demonstration that they were able to adequately replicate the maneuver warfare doctrines of the Codex Astartes is silly. If combat just always occurred right up close, that might make a difference. But on an actual battlefield, you have to adapt to conditions that might not conform to your ideal. In that case, the Black Templars, under their old list rules, stand at a disadvantage due to their lack of flexibility.
Attrition is the Space Wolf hallmark, with their squad numbers going down the older they are until they're Lone Wolves.
You're confusing the idea that the Space Wolves don't replenish losses to packs with attrition style warfare. You're comparing apples to tire pressure regulators. If anything, the fact that the average Long Fangs pack apparently has 6 out of its ten Marines still alive decades, if not centuries into its existence seems to defeat any idea that the Space Wolves utilize any kind of attrition warfare strategies.
For your edification: Attrition warfare. Manuever warfare. By no means do the Black Templars practice attrition warfare either. Even their numbers aren't sufficient for such a practice. It's just that their style of warfare, which is far more representative of simple Force Concentration theories, is far more direct, which will inevitably lead to higher casualty rates than Space Marine Chapters utilizing strategies that are aimed towards disruption of the enemy's ability to fight and complete their decision making processes on the battlefield, and the more balanced capability of the Battle Company style formation allows a Space Marine commander to react better to the battlespace as it evolves. What happens when Black Templars find themselves in a situation where suddenly they can't drop assault, or ride in Land Raiders? What do they do?
DogofWar1 wrote: If GW wants me to play only with models painted the colors of the chapter, they better start selling pre-painted models, because ain't nobody got time for dat.
"ain't nobody"....so you're actually saying, through your double negative there, that everyone has time to paint. Got that!
My image of black Templars has always been Mr T. For the record its nothing to do with skin colour.
Generally my vision is "I pity the fool who defies my Emprah! I pity the fool, I do I do! I pity the fool who is a Xenos scum!"
In direct relationto the eschewing cover.
The scene is Armeggeddon. BA and BT are working a joint strike force, hding behind a wall while Lootas blast away. BaA begins a firefight from behind the wall. Mr Templar: "Ain't no one got time for that fool! Eat snickers, get some Nutz! Aaarrruuumm!"
DogofWar1 wrote: If GW wants me to play only with models painted the colors of the chapter, they better start selling pre-painted models, because ain't nobody got time for dat.
"ain't nobody"....so you're actually saying, through your double negative there, that everyone has time to paint. Got that!
Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or you're serious and don't realize he's quoting a popular meme.
DogofWar1 wrote: If GW wants me to play only with models painted the colors of the chapter, they better start selling pre-painted models, because ain't nobody got time for dat.
"ain't nobody"....so you're actually saying, through your double negative there, that everyone has time to paint. Got that!
Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or you're serious and don't realize he's quoting a popular meme.
DogofWar1 wrote: If GW wants me to play only with models painted the colors of the chapter, they better start selling pre-painted models, because ain't nobody got time for dat.
"ain't nobody"....so you're actually saying, through your double negative there, that everyone has time to paint. Got that!
Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or you're serious and don't realize he's quoting a popular meme.
DogofWar1 wrote: If GW wants me to play only with models painted the colors of the chapter, they better start selling pre-painted models, because ain't nobody got time for dat.
"ain't nobody"....so you're actually saying, through your double negative there, that everyone has time to paint. Got that!
Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or you're serious and don't realize he's quoting a popular meme.
I think we are getting a bit side tracked, point is I like a lot of what I'm hearing regarding the new codex, but the emperor will have to rise from the golden throne before someone tells me how I have to play my marines.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
They invented the Land Raider Crusader to be able to provide covering fire while advancing on the enemy safely, directly disproving your statement.
Actually, it proves nothing than the fact that you don't really see what the Land Raider Crusader represents.
It's nothing more than a short ranged assault transport. The provide no covering fire whatsoever, lacking the Land Raider's long range firepower. It's designed to get up really close, then shoot a bunch of ammunition off while the Doritos inside charge out. This isn't really the concept of covering fires in the traditional military sense. It's simply a short range suppression instrument. The Crusader itself lacks any ability to engage enemy armor or deal with entrenched threats on the approach. The philosophy behind the LRC is that is is hopefully tough enough to get up close.
Ultimately, the LRC doesn't demonstrate any grasp of combined arms doctrine. It was just an adaptation for the Black Templars to stuff more dudes into a Land Raider. The classic LR is superior in almost every way, in terms of assault transport design. It has a strong, intermediate range anti-armor capability, as well the ability to provide suppressive anti-infantry firepower at both close to medium range. The LRC is a specialized close assault platform, nothing more.Understandably, the BTs own regular LRs too. But the idea that the LRC was some kind of demonstration that they were able to adequately replicate the maneuver warfare doctrines of the Codex Astartes is silly. If combat just always occurred right up close, that might make a difference. But on an actual battlefield, you have to adapt to conditions that might not conform to your ideal. In that case, the Black Templars, under their old list rules, stand at a disadvantage due to their lack of flexibility.
You said the Templars lacked covering fire. The LRC is a line-breaker tank, built for the sole purpouse of keeping the enemy down with suppressive fire while it delivers the unit inside into the fray. You generally don't use anti-tank weapons for suppressive fire last time I looked. Even if we're not counting that they've still got Predators, Stormtalons, Stormravens and Dreadnoughts that support their armoured spearheads. In fact, the combination of Land Speeders, Bikes and armoured elements described on page 9 of Codex: Black Templars contradict the claim that the Templars are somehow inferior at manouvre warfare, as the armoured spearhead is listed as one of two preferred ways of fighting of the Templars. In fact, the very core of the Black Templars preferred combat tactics match the overall modus operandi of the Space Marines in general and manouvre warfare in particular; Drop Pod assaults to strike at the enemy lines of command before they can react is pretty much a textbook example of manouvre warfare.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: What happens when Black Templars find themselves in a situation where suddenly they can't drop assault, or ride in Land Raiders? What do they do?
Hit and run attacks. They won the space war for Armageddon with it. Or just do something else that they're perfectly capable of but don't specialize in, just as the White Scars use Terminators when they have to, or the Ultramarines create Tyranic War Veteran Squads. You don't have to be completely incompetent in one field just because you specialize in another. They're still Astartes.
SickSix wrote: As much as I would love more BA chaplains (they are the best models in the game after all), not every marine codex needs to have exactly the same stuff.
In that case the Blood Angels can give us back our Masters of Sanctity that we have in our current Codex, thank you.
Q: Which Chapters are we missing Chapter Tactics on?
A: You have all of them, but not the full extent of the rules (Zion's Notes: I'm waiting to get a little clarification on this)
Q: Could you give us a summary on how this SC restriction works exactly?
A: The SC only work for their Chapter. For example, Telion can only be in an Ultramarines army.
Q: Is there a way to take SCs in another army (for example, a homebrew or in an army that doesn't have Chapter Tactics?).
A: The only way that can happen is if they play Ultras and use their CT, but you paint them Blood Ravens. You have to match the SC to the CT.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So there we go. You CAN do "count-as" with oddly colored Marines just fine. The SCs are restricted to their Chapter Tactics specifically is all. Can we all calm down now?
Q: Is there a way to take SCs in another army (for example, a homebrew or in an army that doesn't have Chapter Tactics?).
A: The only way that can happen is if they play Ultras and use their CT, but you paint them Blood Ravens. You have to match the SC to the CT.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So there we go. You CAN do "count-as" with oddly colored Marines just fine. The SCs are restricted to their Chapter Tactics specifically is all. Can we all calm down now?
Please, all you people who lack the imagination to have figured this out before, please be kind enough to now offer your apologies for wasting so much time pretending that this would ever work any other way.
ClockworkZion wrote:
Q: Is there a way to take SCs in another army (for example, a homebrew or in an army that doesn't have Chapter Tactics?).
A: The only way that can happen is if they play Ultras and use their CT, but you paint them Blood Ravens. You have to match the SC to the CT.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So there we go. You CAN do "count-as" with oddly colored Marines just fine. The SCs are restricted to their Chapter Tactics specifically is all. Can we all calm down now?
It's fairly hilarious that people thought that it was any other way to begin with, all because of one awkwardly worded response to a question.
Especially since before that answer, they had said that SCs were linked to CTs, not to paint schemes, lol.
Q: Is there a way to take SCs in another army (for example, a homebrew or in an army that doesn't have Chapter Tactics?).
A: The only way that can happen is if they play Ultras and use their CT, but you paint them Blood Ravens. You have to match the SC to the CT.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So there we go. You CAN do "count-as" with oddly colored Marines just fine. The SCs are restricted to their Chapter Tactics specifically is all. Can we all calm down now?
Please, all you people who lack the imagination to have figured this out before, please be kind enough to now offer your apologies for wasting so much time pretending that this would ever work any other way.
No. No one needs to apologize for discussing the rumors as they were given to us. If anything the people who were flying off the handle and acting like they were being attacked and even launching accusations of how "we were misinterpreting the rumors" and so on should be apologizing for wearing their bums as hats instead of waiting for all the facts to come in. No one should be faulted for only dealing with the facts on hand over the facts that may exist.
ClockworkZion wrote:
Q: Is there a way to take SCs in another army (for example, a homebrew or in an army that doesn't have Chapter Tactics?).
A: The only way that can happen is if they play Ultras and use their CT, but you paint them Blood Ravens. You have to match the SC to the CT.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So there we go. You CAN do "count-as" with oddly colored Marines just fine. The SCs are restricted to their Chapter Tactics specifically is all. Can we all calm down now?
It's fairly hilarious that people thought that it was any other way to begin with, all because of one awkwardly worded response to a question.
Especially since before that answer, they had said that SCs were linked to CTs, not to paint schemes, lol.
Back to your regularly scheduled program.
Well Chapter Tactics AND Chapters. They specify in the second question that they SCs are linked to their chapters.
Frankly they need to work on their communication skills because there have been a few problems like this that have come up because of poorly worded answers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Got a little clarification on the first question:
Q: Which Chapters are we missing Chapter Tactics on?
A: You have all of them, but not the full extent of the rules (Zion's Notes: I'm waiting to get a little clarification on this)
CLARIFICATION:RG and Ultras. mostly about how they work.
That's right, we don't have the full story on the UM Chapter Tactics.
I kind of want to guess perhaps it's once per game?
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
They invented the Land Raider Crusader to be able to provide covering fire while advancing on the enemy safely, directly disproving your statement.
Actually, it proves nothing than the fact that you don't really see what the Land Raider Crusader represents.
It's nothing more than a short ranged assault transport. The provide no covering fire whatsoever, lacking the Land Raider's long range firepower. It's designed to get up really close, then shoot a bunch of ammunition off while the Doritos inside charge out. This isn't really the concept of covering fires in the traditional military sense. It's simply a short range suppression instrument. The Crusader itself lacks any ability to engage enemy armor or deal with entrenched threats on the approach. The philosophy behind the LRC is that is is hopefully tough enough to get up close.
Ultimately, the LRC doesn't demonstrate any grasp of combined arms doctrine. It was just an adaptation for the Black Templars to stuff more dudes into a Land Raider. The classic LR is superior in almost every way, in terms of assault transport design. It has a strong, intermediate range anti-armor capability, as well the ability to provide suppressive anti-infantry firepower at both close to medium range. The LRC is a specialized close assault platform, nothing more.Understandably, the BTs own regular LRs too. But the idea that the LRC was some kind of demonstration that they were able to adequately replicate the maneuver warfare doctrines of the Codex Astartes is silly. If combat just always occurred right up close, that might make a difference. But on an actual battlefield, you have to adapt to conditions that might not conform to your ideal. In that case, the Black Templars, under their old list rules, stand at a disadvantage due to their lack of flexibility.
You said the Templars lacked covering fire. The LRC is a line-breaker tank, built for the sole purpouse of keeping the enemy down with suppressive fire while it delivers the unit inside into the fray. You generally don't use anti-tank weapons for suppressive fire last time I looked. Even if we're not counting that they've still got Predators, Stormtalons, Stormravens and Dreadnoughts that support their armoured spearheads. In fact, the combination of Land Speeders, Bikes and armoured elements described on page 9 of Codex: Black Templars contradict the claim that the Templars are somehow inferior at manouvre warfare, as the armoured spearhead is listed as one of two preferred ways of fighting of the Templars. In fact, the very core of the Black Templars preferred combat tactics match the overall modus operandi of the Space Marines in general and manouvre warfare in particular; Drop Pod assaults to strike at the enemy lines of command before they can react is pretty much a textbook example of manouvre warfare.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: What happens when Black Templars find themselves in a situation where suddenly they can't drop assault, or ride in Land Raiders? What do they do?
Hit and run attacks. They won the space war for Armageddon with it. Or just do something else that they're perfectly capable of but don't specialize in, just as the White Scars use Terminators when they have to, or the Ultramarines create Tyranic War Veteran Squads. You don't have to be completely incompetent in one field just because you specialize in another. They're still Astartes.
SickSix wrote: As much as I would love more BA chaplains (they are the best models in the game after all), not every marine codex needs to have exactly the same stuff.
In that case the Blood Angels can give us back our Masters of Sanctity that we have in our current Codex, thank you.
Oops, when I said I would love more 'BA' chaplains, I meant 'Bad Ass', as in 3W 3A chaplains.
Got a little clarification on the first question:
Q: Which Chapters are we missing Chapter Tactics on?
A: You have all of them, but not the full extent of the rules (Zion's Notes: I'm waiting to get a little clarification on this)
CLARIFICATION:RG and Ultras. mostly about how they work.
That's right, we don't have the full story on the UM Chapter Tactics.
I kind of want to guess perhaps it's once per game?
That was my guess the first time it was mentioned (I think around page 132 I first posted it). Possibly even as a bubble effect from a Captain/CM. Perhaps having bigger bubble/multiple effect from CM? Blanket rerolls to hit for tactical all the time was NEVER going to happen.
I seriously hope you get nerfed, no because I think marines are op or anything, I just don't like a lot of the players. In my experience, marine chapters spent all last edition beating xeno's into the ground, and when they finally get some love, they're cheap and OP. I see a lot of bitching about new xeno stuff, I think because there no more auto win button against the new ones. A lot of marine players would rather believe new xeno's are OP then learn to play game.
DufenDorgen wrote: I seriously hope you get nerfed. Not because I think marines are OP or anything, but because I don't like a lot of people that play marine chapters. I could just be jaded from my own personal experience but imps spend all last edition stomping xeno's into the ground and when they finally get some love, everything they have is cheap and op.
As a Black Templars player, I'm going to simply mention Black Templars and how much that shoots a hole in the justification of your hopes.
Especially since before that answer, they had said that SCs were linked to CTs, not to paint schemes, lol.
Yes, but didn't they also say that Kantor and Lysander cannot be in same army without allying? Which is weird. Game-wise IF and CF are the same chapter as they have the same chapter tactic. And if you can ally with a chapter with another chapter with identical chapter tactic, then it effectively means just extra FO slots.
DufenDorgen wrote: I seriously hope you get nerfed. Not because I think marines are OP or anything, but because I don't like a lot of people that play marine chapters. I could just be jaded from my own personal experience but imps spend all last edition stomping xeno's into the ground and when they finally get some love, everything they have is cheap and op.
As a Black Templars player, I'm going to simply mention Black Templars and how much that shoots a hole in the justification of your hopes.
I feel you BT. I know thine kamf, and I'm actually happy for you. Even if the new codex nerfs Ultra marines, your army can only get better. I also have nothing specifically against vanilla marine players, we don't actually have on in our group.
Though I'm pretty mad about loyally playing Farsight enclave last edition dreaming of a new codex, when I finally get one no one wants to play me because "Doubling up on plasma is the cheapest thing in warhammer." And when I stop doubling up on any weapon, over watch is cheap. And when I give up my usr, markerlights are dumb. There is no end and when battle suits become troops, there is hopelessness. All because I won't roll over and die. (Not just my friends, play at game shops too, all the same hate)
Especially since before that answer, they had said that SCs were linked to CTs, not to paint schemes, lol.
Yes, but didn't they also say that Kantor and Lysander cannot be in same army without allying? Which is weird. Game-wise IF and CF are the same chapter as they have the same chapter tactic. And if you can ally with a chapter with another chapter with identical chapter tactic, then it effectively means just extra FO slots.
Likely Crimson Fists has a separate CT that just says something like 'uses IF CT' or something like that.
Though I'm pretty mad about loyally playing Farsight enclave last edition dreaming of a new codex, when I finally get one no one wants to play me because "Doubling up on plasma is the cheapest thing in warhammer." And when I stop doubling up on any weapon, over watch is cheap. And when I give up my usr, markerlights are dumb. There is no end and when battle suits become troops, there is hopelessness. All because I won't roll over and die. (Not just my friends, play at game shops too, all the same hate)
And yet here you are doing the same to C:SM players. Why?
Though I'm pretty mad about loyally playing Farsight enclave last edition dreaming of a new codex, when I finally get one no one wants to play me because "Doubling up on plasma is the cheapest thing in warhammer." And when I stop doubling up on any weapon, over watch is cheap. And when I give up my usr, markerlights are dumb. There is no end and when battle suits become troops, there is hopelessness. All because I won't roll over and die. (Not just my friends, play at game shops too, all the same hate)
And yet here you are doing the same to C:SM players. Why?
Nope not at all, already said I don't think your codex's are cheap. I'm complaining about the mentalities marine players have about other armies. I think marines are balanced, the problem I had was that xeno's were not. Now that GW is balancing all the codex's, I think a lot of marine players are surprised and upset that they have to learn to play the game better. I want marines to get nerfed so they know how it feels, not so i can compete. Again, BT doesn't apply, neither does SoB.
So you played a really old army with a codex that was not great in its first iteration. You built up years of repressed anger and frustration by getting beat down by almost any army out there and now that you have a good codex with some really strong options you want everyone to stay weaker than you.
I'm just happy my dark Angels are getting some new toys, yeah they have to be allied in, but who cares, it's new stuff, deathwing painted centurions, the hunter turret on a land speeder vengeance, New sternguard to thieve bits off for my veterans, vanguard look boring to me, all of it will be in my army somehow 0
spamthulhu wrote: So you played a really old army with a codex that was not great in its first iteration. You built up years of repressed anger and frustration by getting beat down by almost any army out there and now that you have a good codex with some really strong options you want everyone to stay weaker than you.
That sounds like a fair trade.
No, this is the third time I'm saying this: Marines aren't cheap. Xeno's used to get hammered. Now that Xeno's have a fighting chance, all people can do is complain about anything they get is cheap and op. My gripe is with those marine players that relied on the forgiveness of marine armies to win games instead of playing well. And how unfair it is to bitch every time you lose a squad to a new xeno's codex. I want you to get nerfed because I want you to know how it feels to actually be nerfed. Then maybe these people would understand what they are bitching about.
spamthulhu wrote: So you played a really old army with a codex that was not great in its first iteration. You built up years of repressed anger and frustration by getting beat down by almost any army out there and now that you have a good codex with some really strong options you want everyone to stay weaker than you.
That sounds like a fair trade.
No, this is the third time I'm saying this: Marines aren't cheap. Xeno's used to get hammered. Now that Xeno's have a fighting chance, all people can do is complain about anything they get is cheap and op. My gripe is with those marine players that relied on the forgiveness of marine armies to win games instead of playing well. And how unfair it is to bitch every time you lose a squad to a new xeno's codex. I want you to get nerfed because I want you to know how it feels to actually be nerfed. Then maybe these people would understand what they are bitching about.
Thank you for telling me that I don't know how to play well. That makes me feel really good right here *points to heart*. I started with marines because I liked the idea of Drunken Werewolf Space Vikings (that's how Space Wolves were sold to me). I didn't win every game, but I did okay with my Ultramarines (switched to them after being accused of being a "dirty bandwagoner"). I've yet to win a game with my new wolves that I'm building in the prevalance of these Xenos armies. I'd like my tactical marines to be cheaper points wise, that way I can probably survive more than a turn or two of shooting with my invalidated 3+ armor since plasma, melta, las, etc... is so fething prominent in this edition.
How about instead of saying that you want marine players to get nerfed so we can know your pain (blah blah blah), we all wish for a fething balanced game so people can enjoy playing space MAN DOLLIES without anyone getting butt hurt over cheese and OP options.
Nope not at all, already said I don't think your codex's are cheap. I'm complaining about the mentalities marine players have about other armies. I think marines are balanced, the problem I had was that xeno's were not. Now that GW is balancing all the codex's, I think a lot of marine players are surprised and upset that they have to learn to play the game better. I want marines to get nerfed so they know how it feels, not so i can compete. Again, BT doesn't apply, neither does SoB.
Yes, I am a marines player and I am very surprised by the reaction. Any other codex that gets an undate the response by the majority of the players is yes! Marine players on the other hand feel entitled to have things their way, I want it all. I want to use every special character, I want to use this chapter tactic with this character, the new rules makes my fluff invalid. I know people fear change but where is the excitement, I cant wait to get my Imperial Fist limited edition codex I like the rule changes but these other players are killing my vibe.
I own the space wolves codex, I like the space wolves codex and I plan on getting them as my next army (My last name is Wolfe so I have to) Not every marine player is the kind of player I'm talking about and I don't mean to accuse everyone of being guilty of this mentality. If your having trouble wining games I'd recommend playing space wolves as a mid ranged shooting army and use your usr defensively. Also don't sink all your points into thunder wolves, use grey hunters and long fangs. I switched to tyranids and won every game thus far without cheese. All that plasma means nothing against a horde of hormagaunts. And neither does a hell drakes torrent or any 10/2 blast. I'm punishing my group for not having well rounded lists. And when they feel like spamming flamers, I bring back the tau.
DufenDorgen wrote: I own the space wolves codex, I like the space wolves codex and I plan on getting them as my next army (My last name is Wolfe so I have to) Not every marine player is the kind of player I'm talking about and I don't mean to accuse everyone of being guilty of this mentality. If your having trouble wining games I'd recommend playing space wolves as a mid ranged shooting army and use your usr defensively. Also don't sink all your points into thunder wolves, use grey hunters and long fangs. I switched to tyranids and won every game thus far without cheese. All that plasma means nothing against a horde of hormagaunts. And neither does a hell drakes torrent or any 10/2 blast. I'm punishing my group for not having well rounded lists. And when they feel like spamming flamers, I bring back the tau.
Nope not at all, already said I don't think your codex's are cheap. I'm complaining about the mentalities marine players have about other armies. I think marines are balanced, the problem I had was that xeno's were not. Now that GW is balancing all the codex's, I think a lot of marine players are surprised and upset that they have to learn to play the game better. I want marines to get nerfed so they know how it feels, not so i can compete. Again, BT doesn't apply, neither does SoB.
Yes, I am a marines player and I am very surprised by the reaction. Any other codex that gets an undate the response by the majority of the players is yes! Marine players on the other hand feel entitled to have things their way, I want it all. I want to use every special character, I want to use this chapter tactic with this character, the new rules makes my fluff invalid. I know people fear change but where is the excitement, I cant wait to get my Imperial Fist limited edition codex I like the rule changes but these other players are killing my vibe.
Exactly, when I was playing old tau farsight, he would only let you bring ONE of anything cool. He nerfed your entire army just by existing and being poor. But I loved his fluff (Like Kernel Kurtz) and GW decided that because he's OK at killing tac marines in the assault that they needed to counteract that heresy by fething the rest of the army up. My REAL only hope for the new tau codex was just that farsight didn't feth up the foc's, that was it. Now that tau is actually on par with other codex's no one wants to play them because they can't stomp them into the ground without knowing how to play the game.
DufenDorgen wrote: I own the space wolves codex, I like the space wolves codex and I plan on getting them as my next army (My last name is Wolfe so I have to) Not every marine player is the kind of player I'm talking about and I don't mean to accuse everyone of being guilty of this mentality. If your having trouble wining games I'd recommend playing space wolves as a mid ranged shooting army and use your usr defensively. Also don't sink all your points into thunder wolves, use grey hunters and long fangs. I switched to tyranids and won every game thus far without cheese. All that plasma means nothing against a horde of hormagaunts. And neither does a hell drakes torrent or any 10/2 blast. I'm punishing my group for not having well rounded lists. And when they feel like spamming flamers, I bring back the tau.
Dufen, you are so cool.
Thanks, I raged for so long and carefully planned how to change the meta of my group. No joke this is a true story: Played farsight enclave loyally for a year (First army ever) I have to evolve my tactics to survive. Win most games 1v1. Good ally 2v2 but everyone insta kills farsight the first thing they do, makes me mad I can never get him into the assault. I VOW ON ALL THAT IS HOLY that when I get a new codex I will take minimum fire warriors and all crises suits. I promise that the point of this list isn't to win, no it's not about winning, this is revenge. Revenge on the storm ravens, revenge on basilisks. Revenge on marines. The list would only exist to kill everything YOU like. The lists name "Farsights revenge".
Every game from this vow to my new codex that farsight dies, I mark his model (Add battle wounds melta shot in the chest and stuff, just so i remember. Model is all scarred up, looks bad ass.) When my new codex comes out I read it, I plan and I make farsight a new shield from scratch. I write in tau "Revenge". I play farsighst revenge. I kill abandon, I murder terminates and I lose games. I donkey punch typhus and I skull feth Mephiston. I still lose games. Then farsights supplement comes out and crisis suits are troops, I don't need fire warriors anymore. Though I have yet to play with suits as troops, since everyone started building specifically to destroy me. Then, knowing this I bought a whole tyranid army in a day, showed up and everyone gak bricks. I am a wizard and my army lists are in my spell book. I AM A WIZARD!!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deadshot wrote: DufenDorgen I get what your saying. You want marine players to stop expecting autowins just by being marines/Ultramarines/GK, BA/DA/SW/Poster Boys.
Expecting the auto win is a set-up for failure. The resulting bad sportsmanship that spans from this failure is what makes me mad. My favorite person to play with in my group is a grey knights player. Everyone complains about his army too, so when we play we just shut up, play the game and have fun doing it, no matter what happens.
Orock wrote: Hey to get the bad argument taste out of here, someone answer this question.
Why of all the chapters, have none of the ultramarines ever been known to fall to chaos corruptions (well them and grey knights im guessing).
Because Ultramarines are all accountants and as such lack the imagination required to be tempted by Chaos
Plus Grey Knights are effectively traitors anyway as they don't acknowledge that Ultramar is the part of the Imperium that matters and that Guilleman is the true Emperor who is statistically 500 times as good as the Emperor (Emperors creation of Imperium with marines lasted just 200 years Guilleman's has lasted 10,000 so far).
Nothing is an auto-win but the mentality that some of you are showing is pathetic, none of you would ever become Astartes. This whole "What am I going to do now" approach shows your colors are you that reliant on characters are you unable to adjust if so, don't get mad when others call you inferior players.
The ability to adapt is part of the game and when you complain about changes it makes it look as if you lack that ability, and is why people automatically assume you are bad players complaining because your inability to win without a SC or old buff/rule.
Calm down, there will be a new codex there will be new ways to use SC, there will be new buffs, you will lose old rules for new ones but for goodness sake one thing you as a marine player should keep in mind and that is YOU SHALL KNOW NO FEAR!
So it seems the major Q&As are likely gone until after 40k Radio does their show this weekend.
As I've said I'll be taking notes on it as soon as it goes online. I don't believe in bottlenecking information like this personally so I'll be putting up my notes online so people don't have to sit through the show just to find out what they haven't shared yet.
I get that they want people to listen to their show but when you're the soul source of information there are better ways to put this out there.
ClockworkZion wrote: So it seems the major Q&As are likely gone until after 40k Radio does their show this weekend.
As I've said I'll be taking notes on it as soon as it goes online. I don't believe in bottlenecking information like this personally so I'll be putting up my notes online so people don't have to sit through the show just to find out what they haven't shared yet.
I get that they want people to listen to their show but when you're the soul source of information there are better ways to put this out there.
I'll definitely listen to the show (I recommend people do, 40k radio is one of the great gaming podcasts). Bit thanks in advance for making an archive if it all. Very helpful and very selfless.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You said the Templars lacked covering fire. The LRC is a line-breaker tank, built for the sole purpouse of keeping the enemy down with suppressive fire while it delivers the unit inside into the fray. You generally don't use anti-tank weapons for suppressive fire last time I looked.
IMO, the point of SCs not being interchangeable between Chapters will be quite moot if the Chapter-specific supplements bring new special characters. But, from the 3 we already have, only the Tau one brought new named people - although they don't sport any unique SC rules; only different equipment.
A rule in a WS supplement, saying that we can create an all-bike troops list with a captain in a bike, won't 'repay' the loss of 9 previously usable characters. I dont say we NEED to have access to the existing ones - in fact, they're UM, RG, WS, SM, IF or CF only. But denying the others (or, for IH, all of them) will create a strange situation: the only codex (for 6th) that prohibits you from using every unit directly - as CSM, DA, Tau and Eldar codexes do not have any built-in limitation of this kind.
What I'm saying is: While with the other new 6th codexes you can pick any unit without problem, for Marines you'll be not able to pick any unit you want, unless you ally with the codex itself (and even doing that there will be off-limits). Tau and Black Legion supplements have some limitations to units, but not in their mother-codexes. Why Marines would have that, without any kind of shift to the other side?
As long as they put new SCs in the Marines supplements , I believe the wailing and gnashing of teeth will diminish. But, AFAIK, there is no precedence to that. If they start with the WS supplement, it would be quite nice indeed!
Saying that because I'm avid to create a RG army - but with only Shrike as a SC... :( So many possibilities of new ones!
Oh, and I'd like to see new unit upgrades like Telion and Chronus, but for other Chapters.
Sorry if I'm missing the obvious (this thread is HUGE ), but at one point the transcript mentions the Iron Hands have a specific chapter tactic but then it does not tell what the Iron Hands chapter tactic rule actually is. Does anyone know what the Iron Hands get?
Worst reasoning ever. Hey this one time there was a Greek named Achilles who was the best swordsman to ever live, yet another Greek named Odysseus was SUPER smart and clever, therefore ALL Greeks from then on MUST be mentally and physically superior to any other human.
Just because Sigismund was handy in combat doesn't mean all Black templars are the best. Also note that it never says he was the best, only that he defeated every champion he met. Not to reign on your parade but every chaos champion I own dies in challenges fairly easily
If Achilles started a order of swordsmen and passed down his teachings to it, forming it in his image, with a focus on swordsmanship, I'd imagine that the order would be pretty damn good at swordsmanship.
Finally, there's been nothing mentioned that backs up the allegations that Space Wolves are better at Close Combat than the Black Templars at all.
This is still idiotic reasoning. He can be the greatest duelist ever and it means nothing when comparing his chapters initiates. Heck Micheal Jordan can give me personal lessons for the rest of my life and I'll never be as good as he is. BTW whos chapter didn't have some amazing hero from the great crusade Get over it.
I know I am going to get bashed for this but I have been following this thread for a while now and I finally want to put my two cents in. First off all the rumors sound exciting. The pics make everything look pretty cool, don't really see a huge difference in the new tac squads. Love all the other models especially the sternguard and vanguard vets. The chapter tactics thing is awesome in my opinion actually adds flavor to saying I am running such and such chapter. On that note I don't understand why everyone is getting so but hurt about the special character issue. I honestly believe the way it sounds is nice you shouldn't be able to mix characters from other chapters that just takes the fun out of even running specific chapters. Secondly being able to mix characters allows for too much cheese and people who do it are just power listers in my opinion and no fun to play with. I also understand that iron hands players don't have a special character it sucks now but I am sure they will get one In a supplement. Lastly for those if you getting but hurt about not being able to run special characters in your home brew chapters, first of all I doubt that is actually how it is going to be I am sure it will be limited to those special characters who have the chapter tactics you have chose for your chapter. Although if it is you can't bring the said special characters GET OVER IT!! You chose to make your own chapter because you wanted something unique that was your own creation well then you should make your own character that is what the generic templates are for, furthermore if you want to look at it from a fluff point of view if they are a new chapter they won't have some great hero known by the imperium, pretty much you can't have your cake and eat it too.
They have already covered that you can run them in your specific chapters, as long as your force(or allies) take the chapter tactics associated with that character.
So you could be the Skull Flowers with chapter tactics ultramarines, no problem taking all the special characters. However you can not be the Prancing Ponies chapter with tactics Iron Hands and take Pedro.
Leth wrote: They have already covered that you can run them in your specific chapters, as long as your force(or allies) take the chapter tactics associated with that character.
So you could be the Skull Flowers with chapter tactics ultramarines, no problem taking all the special characters. However you can not be the Prancing Ponies chapter with tactics Iron Hands and take Pedro.
I am glad that was clarified must have missed it lost in the hundreds of posts about people complaining about how they can't use x special character with y chapter of space marines.
Worst reasoning ever. Hey this one time there was a Greek named Achilles who was the best swordsman to ever live, yet another Greek named Odysseus was SUPER smart and clever, therefore ALL Greeks from then on MUST be mentally and physically superior to any other human.
Just because Sigismund was handy in combat doesn't mean all Black templars are the best. Also note that it never says he was the best, only that he defeated every champion he met. Not to reign on your parade but every chaos champion I own dies in challenges fairly easily
If Achilles started a order of swordsmen and passed down his teachings to it, forming it in his image, with a focus on swordsmanship, I'd imagine that the order would be pretty damn good at swordsmanship.
Finally, there's been nothing mentioned that backs up the allegations that Space Wolves are better at Close Combat than the Black Templars at all.
This is still idiotic reasoning. He can be the greatest duelist ever and it means nothing when comparing his chapters initiates. Heck Micheal Jordan can give me personal lessons for the rest of my life and I'll never be as good as he is. BTW whos chapter didn't have some amazing hero from the great crusade Get over it.
I'm going to "get over it" when someone posts solid arguments in favour of why the Space Wolves are better at close combat than just "because I say so".
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You said the Templars lacked covering fire. The LRC is a line-breaker tank, built for the sole purpouse of keeping the enemy down with suppressive fire while it delivers the unit inside into the fray. You generally don't use anti-tank weapons for suppressive fire last time I looked.
It's okay to admit you don't look very often.
Wikipedia wrote:Machine gun fire is also available from armoured fighting vehicles and aircraft, notably helicopters and perhaps fixed wing aircraft such as AC-130. Automatic cannon (20 - 40 mm) or grenade fire may also be available and fire from larger direct fire systems such as tanks. However, limited ammunition loads mean that such systems are better suited to destructive fire against precisely identified targets unless the required suppression time period is short.
Emphasis mine. Would you mind giving some examples of when you'd use anti-tank weapons for suppressive fire as opposed to just going for ad hominem attacks? You know, argue the point, not the person?
Mr Morden wrote: What, IMO, they should have done was just have 3 SC for each named Chapter/CT.
Reduces cheese factor of best "SCs" always being used, regardless of their background and the apparent monopoly of the Ultramarines in fielding them.
So they should have told people that two SC models are now not usable at all. Then not given the list ANY new units or updates of old models as you're just getting 13 New character models most of which will only be use able by a small minority of players. What a fantastic business plan that would be for the companies MOST important army release
Mr Morden wrote: What, IMO, they should have done was just have 3 SC for each named Chapter/CT.
Reduces cheese factor of best "SCs" always being used, regardless of their background and the apparent monopoly of the Ultramarines in fielding them.
So they should have told people that two SC models are now not usable at all. Then not given the list ANY new units or updates of old models as you're just getting 13 New character models most of which will only be use able by a small minority of players. What a fantastic business plan that would be for the companies MOST important army release
Its what normally happens to other Codexes and Army Books - Sepcial Characters come and go in both WFB and 40K - its Always been this way, I have plenty of SC's for all sorts of armies on my shelves that no longer have rules.............
Who said anything about no new units - stop making things up and actually read and consider the post - apparently YOU have to have nine otherwise you are somehow at a disadvantage - what a shame.........plus as noted above its not like you can't use them as other things.
Why would they not want to make new SC figures to sell to people for this new release, instead if the pile of S%&t that are the Centurion models.
You need to understand that is being presented as no longer Codex: Ultramarines - but Codex: Space Marines - consequently ALL highlghted Chapters should have the same treament - unless you feel that your (and only your) army needs ultra-special treatment (again).
Mr Morden wrote: What, IMO, they should have done was just have 3 SC for each named Chapter/CT.
Reduces cheese factor of best "SCs" always being used, regardless of their background and the apparent monopoly of the Ultramarines in fielding them.
So they should have told people that two SC models are now not usable at all. Then not given the list ANY new units or updates of old models as you're just getting 13 New character models most of which will only be use able by a small minority of players. What a fantastic business plan that would be for the companies MOST important army release
Its what normally happens to other Codexes and Army Books - Sepcial Characters come and go in both WFB and 40K - its Always been this way, I have plenty of SC's for all sorts of armies on my shelves that no longer have rules.............
Who said anything about no new units - stop making things up and actually read and consider the post - apparently YOU have to have nine otherwise you are somehow at a disadvantage - what a shame.........plus as noted above its not like you can't use them as other things.
Why would they not want to make new SC figures to sell to people for this new release, instead if the pile of S%&t that are the Centurion models.
You need to understand that is being presented as no longer Codex: Ultramarines - but Codex: Space Marines - consequently ALL highlghted Chapters should have the same treament - unless you feel that your (and only your) army needs ultra-special treatment (again).
All of the non-Ultramarines armies are getting more representation out of this book more so than they have any other book before this, at this point. They aren't removing any special characters from the game, nor are they adding in any (unless you consider the three Black Templar ones as 'adding in').
Crying that this codex is super Ultramarines favored, especially considering that they made this book so huge in an attempt to tap every single one of the 'main' 40k chapters, is moronic. If you want to use your Tigurius, all you simply need to do is use the Ultramarines tactics for that game. It doesn't stop you from having your Iron Hands painted in black and silver or your Salamanders all green and fiery.
There's no need for them to remove any of the special characters, unless they wished to attempt to appease bitter people like yourself. However, I imagine, if they have the choice between keeping the characters in and keeping customers happy, or appeasing angry people who'd just find another reason to be angry, they'll choose the former.
Get over yourself and your chosen color scheme for your marines.
Wow - pity you did not actually read my post or you could have replied in a constructive way........
1. I did not say they were removing SCs - only that they should treat all the Chapters the same - but apparently you feel that only Ultramarines should get SCs - special snowflakes that they are.
2. I have an Ultramarine, Space Wolves and Dark Angels army - so again you are barking up the wrong tree mate if you think I am crying over my own Chapters.
3. You should look at your own rant and consider who is angry.
I totally agree with Mr Morden and Crimson: Putting in some generic SCs like a veteran scout (Telion) or a first company captain (kantor) and making them available for all chapters would have been a better decision than keeping thid Codex Codex:Ultramarines* (*with sime extras) and keeping any "true" SCs for Supplements. I can either throw away my counts-as Kantor or my counts-as Telion, of course i could use allies but then my imperial guard or necron allies are gone...
I know that Kantor is a chapter master, but i thought having a first company captain might be a good reason to have scoring sternguard, rather than Kantors fluff reason. Would be neat to have companies to make different non-tacticals scoring/troops.
Anyway, while I am looking forward to the release but i suppose one can't have everything...
TBH if they were adding special characters at all, from the start, it should have been the chapter masters of each founding chapter, and mabey a few other guys of different disciplines.
I mean.......... the chapter masters are epic heroes ulike any other in the imperium and command the mightiest strike forces in the galaxey.
You keep the generic chapter master there just in case people wanna make up their own guy, but the founding chapters leaders should all be named and known.
Keeping tigurius and lysander would be fine since those 2 are epic, but somone like chronos could have been tossed for an Iron Hands character easily.
Mr Morden wrote: Wow - pity you did not actually read my post or you could have replied in a constructive way........
1. I did not say they were removing SCs - only that they should treat all the Chapters the same - but apparently you feel that only Ultramarines should get SCs - special snowflakes that they are.
2. I have an Ultramarine, Space Wolves and Dark Angels army - so again you are barking up the wrong tree mate if you think I am crying over my own Chapters.
3. You should look at your own rant and consider who is angry.
1: You implied that you would want to see Ultramarines Special Characters removed in your previous post, due to the fact that other chapters don't have as many special characters. Rather than remove them, they could have added more, or, can add them in supplements down the line. Why should already existing special characters be removed in place of new ones? In fact, as i'll discuss below, the only Ultramarines Special Character that is worth his points as things look now is Tigurius - and even that is debatable.
Not everyone is going to get equal attention. Not all Eldar Craftworlds get the same love in Codex: Eldar, or all the Dark Eldar Cabals. Hell, the Chaos Marine book is the most even handed one in those regards, but any Undivided legion other than the Black Legion gets screwed, too. There is a far larger uproar about Codex: Space Marine's Special Characters than any other - and it's frankly getting ridiculous.
3: I'm hardly angry. More tired of whining about Special Characters. Honestly, if someone wants to use Tigurius, they can take the Ultramarines chapter tactics. If someone wants to represent the Ultramarines First Company going to war, well, they can play Dark Angels. Or, run Crimson Fists/Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics.
And honestly, the vast majority of the Ultramarine Special Characters are pretty much worthless in a more 'competitive' game. Marneus Calgar can have 3 Warlord traits and gets buffs to God of War! All for 275pts, and he'll still probably lose to Abaddon and a good chance to lose against Draigo or Lysander. Sure, it provides strategic buffs to the army, but you'd probably be better off with Tigirius for a whole hell of a lot cheaper. Chaplains (Cassius) are hardly ever worth their points, as being stuck with an AP4 weapon when designed for Close Combat is pretty lame. Getting Hatred rather than Litanies of Hate will be great, but... I suppose, depending on the points cost of a normal chaplain, his T6 and FNP would be worth it, but, if Chaplains went down a decent amount...
Sicarius is 185pts now, but granting a free ability to a tactical squad, plus mediocre combat abilities, still isn't that great.
The only Ultramarine Character that'll be worth it, really, is most likely Tigurius. But, Kantor is useful, as is Vulkan. Lysander is still probably the best Combat Character in the book, even with his price hike. (Then again, if we can buy EW via relics, a bog standard Chapter Master might have him beat in that regard)
As for Telion, it even says in his fluff blurb that he goes and hangs out with other chapters that are close to the Ultramarines. Likely, they too follow the Ultramarines Doctrines. (But this is Okay, since if you are using Scouts, you'll probably be using Raven Guard or something - and Telion's stealth would be wasted)
As for Chronus... did anyone pay his stupid points costs outside of Apocalypse on a LR Terminus?
As for 'fluffy' games, you could always just ally in your Telion or what have you, and just make sure they have something to distinguish them. For example... being a different company.
Eihnlazer wrote: Keeping tigurius and lysander would be fine since those 2 are epic, but somone like chronos could have been tossed for an Iron Hands character easily.
My thoughts exactly. Even if it was just like a switch in Chapters for the SCs.
example:
Chronus > Iron Hands
Telion > Raven Guard
etc.
They could have kept the abilities but changed the chapter and names. Hell they could have feasibly even kept the names.
And honestly, the vast majority of the Ultramarine Special Characters are pretty much worthless in a more 'competitive' game. Marneus Calgar can have 3 Warlord traits and gets buffs to God of War! All for 275pts, and he'll still probably lose to Abaddon and a good chance to lose against Draigo or Lysander.
Draigo's AP3 Titansword is going to do diddly-squad to Marneus.
And honestly, the vast majority of the Ultramarine Special Characters are pretty much worthless in a more 'competitive' game. Marneus Calgar can have 3 Warlord traits and gets buffs to God of War! All for 275pts, and he'll still probably lose to Abaddon and a good chance to lose against Draigo or Lysander.
Draigo's AP3 Titansword is going to do diddly-squad to Marneus.
Ahhh, for some reason I was under the impression that Draigo had an AP2 sword.
While they obviously aren't removing UM characters, and probably (well, hopefully) are waiting for supplements to add SCs to other chapters, I will say that I would have been a-ok with them removing SCs from UM to even things up.
After all, if IH players have to wait for a supplement to get even 1 character (and many people have told IH and other chapter players to chill out because they're presumably getting SCs later), then it would have been perfectly fair to make UM players wait for a UM supplement to get back 1 or 2 of their SCs.
DogofWar1 wrote: While they obviously aren't removing UM characters, and probably (well, hopefully) are waiting for supplements to add SCs to other chapters, I will say that I would have been a-ok with them removing SCs from UM to even things up.
After all, if IH players have to wait for a supplement to get even 1 character (and many people have told IH and other chapter players to chill out because they're presumably getting SCs later), then it would have been perfectly fair to make UM players wait for a UM supplement to get back 1 or 2 of their SCs.
After all, turnabout is fair play.
Which is the dumbest reasoning of all time for any characters to be removed.
EDIT: If Iron Hands get anything in their supplement, I'd rather it be Iron Fathers (Captains/MotF mixed in some interesting way) and the option to buy TDA for their Tac Marine sergeants, than a special character. After all, the Iron Hands operate in self-sufficient Clan Companies rather than as a chapter, and are probably more divergent from the Codex than some of the Chapters that got their own books.
DogofWar1 wrote: While they obviously aren't removing UM characters, and probably (well, hopefully) are waiting for supplements to add SCs to other chapters, I will say that I would have been a-ok with them removing SCs from UM to even things up.
After all, if IH players have to wait for a supplement to get even 1 character (and many people have told IH and other chapter players to chill out because they're presumably getting SCs later), then it would have been perfectly fair to make UM players wait for a UM supplement to get back 1 or 2 of their SCs.
After all, turnabout is fair play.
Which is the dumbest reasoning of all time for any characters to be removed.
Removing characters would have indeed been aggressive, which is why I wouldn't advocate for doing that, but players (often UM players) telling other chapters to sit down and chill out and wait for their supplement is annoying. Maybe if they had to sit through a wait for SCs, they would understand and be more sympathetic to the fact that GW just severely limited how people can play the game. All these artificial walls are getting put up for other chapter's players, and yet UM gets away largely unscathed (sure, they lose access to the non-UM SCs, but while they lose access to 5 characters, everyone else lost access to 8 characters and 2 upgrade character).
And the isn't aimed at you, but there have been others here and around the interwebs who have basically told other chapters to calm down and just wait.
DogofWar1 wrote: While they obviously aren't removing UM characters, and probably (well, hopefully) are waiting for supplements to add SCs to other chapters, I will say that I would have been a-ok with them removing SCs from UM to even things up.
After all, if IH players have to wait for a supplement to get even 1 character (and many people have told IH and other chapter players to chill out because they're presumably getting SCs later), then it would have been perfectly fair to make UM players wait for a UM supplement to get back 1 or 2 of their SCs.
After all, turnabout is fair play.
Which is the dumbest reasoning of all time for any characters to be removed.
Removing characters would have indeed been aggressive, which is why I wouldn't advocate for doing that, but players (often UM players) telling other chapters to sit down and chill out and wait for their supplement is annoying. Maybe if they had to sit through a wait for SCs, they would understand and be more sympathetic to the fact that GW just severely limited how people can play the game. All these artificial walls are getting put up for other chapter's players, and yet UM gets away largely unscathed (sure, they lose access to the non-UM SCs, but while they lose access to 5 characters, everyone else lost access to 8 characters and 2 upgrade character).
In reality, nobody is losing access to anything, since you can just use the UM Chapter Tactics.
What people are losing are the ability to mix and match SCs and min-max the Chapter Tactics. (For example, Pedro with Combi-Weapon Sternguard using Salamanders or Ultramarines chapter tactics)
EDIT: Really, all that's changing is that instead of having Combat Tactics base, you get to pick one variant of Chapter Tactics instead, and can use characters depending on what you pick.
Worst reasoning ever. Hey this one time there was a Greek named Achilles who was the best swordsman to ever live, yet another Greek named Odysseus was SUPER smart and clever, therefore ALL Greeks from then on MUST be mentally and physically superior to any other human.
Just because Sigismund was handy in combat doesn't mean all Black templars are the best. Also note that it never says he was the best, only that he defeated every champion he met. Not to reign on your parade but every chaos champion I own dies in challenges fairly easily
If Achilles started a order of swordsmen and passed down his teachings to it, forming it in his image, with a focus on swordsmanship, I'd imagine that the order would be pretty damn good at swordsmanship.
Finally, there's been nothing mentioned that backs up the allegations that Space Wolves are better at Close Combat than the Black Templars at all.
This is still idiotic reasoning. He can be the greatest duelist ever and it means nothing when comparing his chapters initiates. Heck Micheal Jordan can give me personal lessons for the rest of my life and I'll never be as good as he is. BTW whos chapter didn't have some amazing hero from the great crusade Get over it.
I'm going to "get over it" when someone posts solid arguments in favour of why the Space Wolves are better at close combat than just "because I say so".
Well, obviously they both shine in their own respected fluff. There isn't a codex written that undermines it's chapter in it's fluff. So clearly all we are left with is the opinion of the games developers which shine through the rules they write. SW are better at CC then BT, back in third with the tiny codex I played my SW and my bro played templars and we would have massed infantry battle in CC and you know what conclusion we came to in ~100 games? That my SW had an unbalanced favor in CC which is why I won ~80+ times out of that 100. It was when he played more to the mission then me and beat the clock that he would win. I don't think their has been a BT book where they really out shine the wolves. This should be your proof.
I'm going to "get over it" when someone posts solid arguments in favour of why the Space Wolves are better at close combat than just "because I say so".
Crazyterran wrote: Not everyone is going to get equal attention. Not all Eldar Craftworlds get the same love in Codex: Eldar, or all the Dark Eldar Cabals. Hell, the Chaos Marine book is the most even handed one in those regards, but any Undivided legion other than the Black Legion gets screwed, too. There is a far larger uproar about Codex: Space Marine's Special Characters than any other - and it's frankly getting ridiculous.
This is where you mix up what you're arguing. The point is, every codex you mentioned gives players the freedom to mix characters as they like. I can take Eldrad and Yriel in the same army, or Vect and the Baron, or even Kharn and Ahriman. The problem is they are imposing this artificial limitation on who you can take with who, and getting rid of the counts-as option that's been around forever. So previously, you could take Kantor to get scoring Sternguard, and Lysander to just beat face in a Crimson Fist army, and say "Yeah this is Tim. He's super good with a hammer. He's a counts-as for Lysander." And now, based on what Chapter Tactics you want to use, you run into varying degrees of limitations. Mixing characters is no more "powergaming" or "WAAC" than any other combination of effective units, and their reasoning for not allowing it is kind of half-assed, especially when they don't give equal representation to all the armies in the book.
Happens when the fluff for the chapters is diffrent. they can eather let everyone run chapter masters and specials from multiple chapters (because we know how often the chapter masters join up with other chapters)
or
they can limit what chapter masters can go with who
or they can make it vanilla marine codex and give out no chapter masters
or make it vanilla with the UM and no one else...
Being that it's games workshop, and they care less about what power list can be made, and more about the fluff (to whatever they change it to this edition) they chose to let each chapter be represented, but limit who can go with who. not a big deal really.
I understand why they did it, but (speaking as someone who doesn't play marines) it does seem like a pretty big deal. Of course these specific characters don't join up often in the fluff, but your counts-as captain who uses a set of rules represented by this model will join up with anyone you please. Once they hit the table, all a special character is is a collection of rules, typically ones you can't get just with wargear on a stock HQ. It doesn't seem very sporting when no other army restricts how you mix these rule-blobs, but then marine players get... not exactly screwed, cause this sounds like a good book, but maybe their toes stubbed a little.
Mr Morden wrote: Why would they not want to make new SC figures to sell to people for this new release, instead if the pile of S%&t that are the Centurion models.
You need to understand that is being presented as no longer Codex: Ultramarines - but Codex: Space Marines - consequently ALL highlghted Chapters should have the same treament - unless you feel that your (and only your) army needs ultra-special treatment (again).
Lets see, add a bunch of sculpts and rules that only 1/7 of the players who use the book will buy a single copy of, or a plastic unit that all players can take as many as 36 in a list.
I'm going to "get over it" when someone posts solid arguments in favour of why the Space Wolves are better at close combat than just "because I say so".
In reality, nobody is losing access to anything, since you can just use the UM Chapter Tactics.
What people are losing are the ability to mix and match SCs and min-max the Chapter Tactics. (For example, Pedro with Combi-Weapon Sternguard using Salamanders or Ultramarines chapter tactics)
EDIT: Really, all that's changing is that instead of having Combat Tactics base, you get to pick one variant of Chapter Tactics instead, and can use characters depending on what you pick.
And why isn't losing the ability to mix and match SCs losing something? It is a wall that is being put up limiting how players play their armies.
Imagine if Eldar could only choose SCs by craftworld, or CSM by traitor legion, it would be a wall that was put up that may keep you from playing how you wish to play, and IMO the best way to make the game fun is to give more options, not less, which is what is happening here.
If some combination of SCs is broken, then they could fix that while they're writing the codex, or maybe get a writer to write some story into the codex about how Lysander and Vulkan pissed each other off on some backwater planet and as such can't be in the same FOC and must be allied in. It would not have been hard to remove the cheese combinations while keeping more options available, but that was not the path they chose.
Consider that:
UM: 6 SCs (two of which are upgrades)
Chaos: 7 SCs Eldar: 9 SCs + Avatar of Khaine
SW: 8 SCs (2 of which are upgrades)
DA: 5 SCs GK: 8 SCs (1 upgrade)
Necrons: 7 SCs DE: 8 SCs Tyranids: 5 SCs (though only 2 in HQ, the rest scattered among elites and HS)
BA: 8 SCs (2 upgrades)
Tau: 6 SCs (1 upgrade)
Daemons: 9 SCs Orks: 4 SCs IG: 12 SCs (all over the book though)
BT: 2 SCs IF: 1 SC WS: 1 SC CF: 1 SC Salamanders: 1 SC RG: 1 SC IH: 0 SCs
It's a restraint on play style that they could have easily avoided and balanced, but they didn't, and now they're restricting play styles, while *maybe* giving us options back later with supplements that you have to buy.
Mr Morden wrote: Wow - pity you did not actually read my post or you could have replied in a constructive way........
1. I did not say they were removing SCs - only that they should treat all the Chapters the same - but apparently you feel that only Ultramarines should get SCs - special snowflakes that they are.
2. I have an Ultramarine, Space Wolves and Dark Angels army - so again you are barking up the wrong tree mate if you think I am crying over my own Chapters.
3. You should look at your own rant and consider who is angry.
1: You implied that you would want to see Ultramarines Special Characters removed in your previous post, due to the fact that other chapters don't have as many special characters. Rather than remove them, they could have added more, or, can add them in supplements down the line. Why should already existing special characters be removed in place of new ones? In fact, as i'll discuss below, the only Ultramarines Special Character that is worth his points as things look now is Tigurius - and even that is debatable.
Not everyone is going to get equal attention. Not all Eldar Craftworlds get the same love in Codex: Eldar, or all the Dark Eldar Cabals. Hell, the Chaos Marine book is the most even handed one in those regards, but any Undivided legion other than the Black Legion gets screwed, too. There is a far larger uproar about Codex: Space Marine's Special Characters than any other - and it's frankly getting ridiculous.
3: I'm hardly angry. More tired of whining about Special Characters. Honestly, if someone wants to use Tigurius, they can take the Ultramarines chapter tactics. If someone wants to represent the Ultramarines First Company going to war, well, they can play Dark Angels. Or, run Crimson Fists/Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics.
And honestly, the vast majority of the Ultramarine Special Characters are pretty much worthless in a more 'competitive' game. Marneus Calgar can have 3 Warlord traits and gets buffs to God of War! All for 275pts, and he'll still probably lose to Abaddon and a good chance to lose against Draigo or Lysander. Sure, it provides strategic buffs to the army, but you'd probably be better off with Tigirius for a whole hell of a lot cheaper. Chaplains (Cassius) are hardly ever worth their points, as being stuck with an AP4 weapon when designed for Close Combat is pretty lame. Getting Hatred rather than Litanies of Hate will be great, but... I suppose, depending on the points cost of a normal chaplain, his T6 and FNP would be worth it, but, if Chaplains went down a decent amount...
Sicarius is 185pts now, but granting a free ability to a tactical squad, plus mediocre combat abilities, still isn't that great.
The only Ultramarine Character that'll be worth it, really, is most likely Tigurius. But, Kantor is useful, as is Vulkan. Lysander is still probably the best Combat Character in the book, even with his price hike. (Then again, if we can buy EW via relics, a bog standard Chapter Master might have him beat in that regard)
As for Telion, it even says in his fluff blurb that he goes and hangs out with other chapters that are close to the Ultramarines. Likely, they too follow the Ultramarines Doctrines. (But this is Okay, since if you are using Scouts, you'll probably be using Raven Guard or something - and Telion's stealth would be wasted)
As for Chronus... did anyone pay his stupid points costs outside of Apocalypse on a LR Terminus?
As for 'fluffy' games, you could always just ally in your Telion or what have you, and just make sure they have something to distinguish them. For example... being a different company.
What I said was - what I felt they should have done and I stick by that...............it would have made sure that not only do we get new SC models, we also get some new fluff on Chapters that are under represented.....which is sorely needed. Whereas what we do get is Centurions - awesome
You then go one to say that most of the Ultramarine SC are pointless - so what's the issue with taking some out and ether making them more generic or putting in new ones that can be used effectively. You cna still use the models as Chapter Masters, Captains etc unless you subscribe to some wierd idea that they can only represent the specific SC...........
The Eldar example doesn't compare as there are not restrictions on the SC that can be used together. I get the impression if they had been "even handed" and they had just put in 3 really good Ultramarine SCs it would have been you screaming and shouting about how your Chapter had been stripped of its fluffy chacraters (that also according to you don't really work, or are overpriced and no one uses).
As I mentioned before I don't have an bias towards one army so perhaps I can see it more objectively....................
I, for one, can't wait to run 4 TFCs. Scout Bikers with Gred. launchers in Dedicated Speeders with Heavy Flamers or Meltas.
Or four Stalkers with 32 shots to Flyers/Skimmers (with the new Tau/Eldar explosion in popularity). Followed by Combat Squaded Sternguard with combi's.
Either way, turn1 presence just got a lot better.
Being a BT player, I get to pick whatever SM ally I want to synergize with my list. That's fantastic. I never liked the idea of allying, but with the new rules (as rumored) you can pick whatever you want in your allies, and paint them like BTs and say they are following Salamander tactics with a regular Vulkan model, etc,etc.
It basically gives me a real reason to run 4 HQs (2 normal, 1 Emperor's Champion, and 1 Salamanders (or UM, etc), 4 Elites, 8 troops, 4 heavies, and 4 fasts with almost no penalty.
Obviously you can't max all those slots, but the potential for a large variety of army lists is HUGE. I'm excited for BT players, as well as other marines. I can't wait for the supplement but until then, I'm going to have fun figuring out new army compositions.
Killian wrote: When they come out with individual supplements for these chapters all the bitching will be for naught.
Perhaps, but only if they actually include SCs, or suitable alternatives, in those supplements, something which is not confirmed and for which we don't really have a strong precedent. Most of us assume that will be the case, but we don't know just yet.
And of course, you still have to buy the main codex and the supplement. Army books used to be, what, $40? Now they're $50 plus the $30 supplement.
Mr Morden wrote: Wow - pity you did not actually read my post or you could have replied in a constructive way........
1. I did not say they were removing SCs - only that they should treat all the Chapters the same - but apparently you feel that only Ultramarines should get SCs - special snowflakes that they are.
2. I have an Ultramarine, Space Wolves and Dark Angels army - so again you are barking up the wrong tree mate if you think I am crying over my own Chapters.
3. You should look at your own rant and consider who is angry.
1: You implied that you would want to see Ultramarines Special Characters removed in your previous post, due to the fact that other chapters don't have as many special characters. Rather than remove them, they could have added more, or, can add them in supplements down the line. Why should already existing special characters be removed in place of new ones? In fact, as i'll discuss below, the only Ultramarines Special Character that is worth his points as things look now is Tigurius - and even that is debatable.
Not everyone is going to get equal attention. Not all Eldar Craftworlds get the same love in Codex: Eldar, or all the Dark Eldar Cabals. Hell, the Chaos Marine book is the most even handed one in those regards, but any Undivided legion other than the Black Legion gets screwed, too. There is a far larger uproar about Codex: Space Marine's Special Characters than any other - and it's frankly getting ridiculous.
3: I'm hardly angry. More tired of whining about Special Characters. Honestly, if someone wants to use Tigurius, they can take the Ultramarines chapter tactics. If someone wants to represent the Ultramarines First Company going to war, well, they can play Dark Angels. Or, run Crimson Fists/Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics.
And honestly, the vast majority of the Ultramarine Special Characters are pretty much worthless in a more 'competitive' game. Marneus Calgar can have 3 Warlord traits and gets buffs to God of War! All for 275pts, and he'll still probably lose to Abaddon and a good chance to lose against Draigo or Lysander. Sure, it provides strategic buffs to the army, but you'd probably be better off with Tigirius for a whole hell of a lot cheaper. Chaplains (Cassius) are hardly ever worth their points, as being stuck with an AP4 weapon when designed for Close Combat is pretty lame. Getting Hatred rather than Litanies of Hate will be great, but... I suppose, depending on the points cost of a normal chaplain, his T6 and FNP would be worth it, but, if Chaplains went down a decent amount...
Sicarius is 185pts now, but granting a free ability to a tactical squad, plus mediocre combat abilities, still isn't that great.
The only Ultramarine Character that'll be worth it, really, is most likely Tigurius. But, Kantor is useful, as is Vulkan. Lysander is still probably the best Combat Character in the book, even with his price hike. (Then again, if we can buy EW via relics, a bog standard Chapter Master might have him beat in that regard)
As for Telion, it even says in his fluff blurb that he goes and hangs out with other chapters that are close to the Ultramarines. Likely, they too follow the Ultramarines Doctrines. (But this is Okay, since if you are using Scouts, you'll probably be using Raven Guard or something - and Telion's stealth would be wasted)
As for Chronus... did anyone pay his stupid points costs outside of Apocalypse on a LR Terminus?
As for 'fluffy' games, you could always just ally in your Telion or what have you, and just make sure they have something to distinguish them. For example... being a different company.
What I said was - what I felt they should have done and I stick by that...............it would have made sure that not only do we get new SC models, we also get some new fluff on Chapters that are under represented.....which is sorely needed. Whereas what we do get is Centurions - awesome
You then go one to say that most of the Ultramarine SC are pointless - so what's the issue with taking some out and ether making them more generic or putting in new ones that can be used effectively. You cna still use the models as Chapter Masters, Captains etc unless you subscribe to some wierd idea that they can only represent the specific SC...........
The Eldar example doesn't compare as there are not restrictions on the SC that can be used together. I get the impression if they had been "even handed" and they had just put in 3 really good Ultramarine SCs it would have been you screaming and shouting about how your Chapter had been stripped of its fluffy chacraters (that also according to you don't really work, or are overpriced and no one uses).
As I mentioned before I don't have an bias towards one army so perhaps I can see it more objectively....................
Sure, they aren't great characters, but most of them have been there a while. The only character that should really have made a comeback is Captain Coteaz, since he's the only Space Marine SM I can think of that's really been removed. (Barring silly ones like half-eldar marine psykers or ones in the Armageddon/Eye of Terror books). You still don't have a good reason for removing them other than to 'make it fair' in the book that used to be Codex: Ultramarines. There's no real reason to remove them as they are, since anyone who wants to use a T6 Chaplain can simply use the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics, or anyone who wants to use a Captain with a Heavy Flamer and makes Meltas awesome can use the Salamanders Traits. And, they already have models for them, if you don't want to kitbash them yourselves!
Besides, everyone's already screaming about how much better the Ultramarine tactics are, right? So might as well take out that special character they get while you use their traits anyways!
I'd rather them release a new - even ugly - plastic kit that everyone can use than 2 - 3 new Special Characters they'll sell to the niche marine players. Theoritically, you can have 72 Centurions in an army over 2000pts (probably not practically), where as you could still only have one IronHands CharacterGuy.
Don't pretend you have some superiority over me because you happen to play Dark Angels and Space Wolves as well. I have a small Imperial Guard army that I don't have listed since I don't bring it out, as well as Tau.
In reality, nobody is losing access to anything, since you can just use the UM Chapter Tactics.
What people are losing are the ability to mix and match SCs and min-max the Chapter Tactics. (For example, Pedro with Combi-Weapon Sternguard using Salamanders or Ultramarines chapter tactics)
EDIT: Really, all that's changing is that instead of having Combat Tactics base, you get to pick one variant of Chapter Tactics instead, and can use characters depending on what you pick.
And why isn't losing the ability to mix and match SCs losing something? It is a wall that is being put up limiting how players play their armies.
Imagine if Eldar could only choose SCs by craftworld, or CSM by traitor legion, it would be a wall that was put up that may keep you from playing how you wish to play, and IMO the best way to make the game fun is to give more options, not less, which is what is happening here.
If some combination of SCs is broken, then they could fix that while they're writing the codex, or maybe get a writer to write some story into the codex about how Lysander and Vulkan pissed each other off on some backwater planet and as such can't be in the same FOC and must be allied in. It would not have been hard to remove the cheese combinations while keeping more options available, but that was not the path they chose.
Consider that:
UM: 6 SCs (two of which are upgrades)
Chaos: 7 SCs Eldar: 9 SCs + Avatar of Khaine
SW: 8 SCs (2 of which are upgrades)
DA: 5 SCs GK: 8 SCs (1 upgrade)
Necrons: 7 SCs DE: 8 SCs Tyranids: 5 SCs (though only 2 in HQ, the rest scattered among elites and HS)
BA: 8 SCs (2 upgrades)
Tau: 6 SCs (1 upgrade)
Daemons: 9 SCs Orks: 4 SCs IG: 12 SCs (all over the book though)
BT: 2 SCs IF: 1 SC WS: 1 SC CF: 1 SC Salamanders: 1 SC RG: 1 SC IH: 0 SCs
It's a restraint on play style that they could have easily avoided and balanced, but they didn't, and now they're restricting play styles, while *maybe* giving us options back later with supplements that you have to buy.
So, your argument is that you can't mix and match Special Characters now? I guess, depending on if CFs actually get different traits from IFs. Before you couldn't mix their Chapter Tactics anyways, and had to pick one or the other. There was no real benefit rules-wise previously to mixing SCs together, and, with one of our relics apparently providing EW, you can take a better equipped Chapter Master beat stick for cheaper, most likely.
I mean, the Pedro mixed with Salamanders or Ultramarines traits was one of the cheesier ones I could think of, but even Pedro mixed with Vulkan now that they don't replace Combat Tactics would've been 'cheesy'.
On the other hand, I do think limiting Special Characters, over all, was dumb for everyone. Then again, I would never have bought a Vulkan model to use with my UM's anyways, and would've kitbashed together a 3rd Captain or something.
If the rumors are right, you can still ally in other Chapter Tactics, so, if you used more than two Troop Choices anyways, nothing is stopping you from using them both still.
My best friend works with older people (retired onwards) and says the worst thing is a lot (not all) moan all the time. From this topic it looks like Space Marines have a surprisingly large number of older players.
PS I'm not trying to troll. I'm just saying what a lot of people are probably thinking. Personally I'm very excited about the new C:SM and plan to start a homebrew chapter when it comes out. Planning to try and make Centurians work... I've got a cool paint scheme for them and thinking they could augment an infantry-only force. I think the two wounds is useful and is (ignoring insta-kill stuff) statistically like having an invul save.
MandalorynOranj wrote: I understand why they did it, but (speaking as someone who doesn't play marines) it does seem like a pretty big deal. Of course these specific characters don't join up often in the fluff, but your counts-as captain who uses a set of rules represented by this model will join up with anyone you please. Once they hit the table, all a special character is is a collection of rules, typically ones you can't get just with wargear on a stock HQ. It doesn't seem very sporting when no other army restricts how you mix these rule-blobs, but then marine players get... not exactly screwed, cause this sounds like a good book, but maybe their toes stubbed a little.
IF the rumor is correct... you can also still take 2 of them, just one as an ally, allowing you to take 2 of them... the only thing you lose is being able to take the 2 upgrade characters...
FAAC wrote: Things have changed. lol. This happens.
My best friend works with older people (retired onwards) and says the worst thing is a lot (not all) moan all the time. From this topic it looks like Space Marines have a surprisingly large number of older players.
PS I'm not trying to troll. I'm just saying what a lot of people are probably thinking. Personally I'm very excited about the new C:SM and plan to start a homebrew chapter when it comes out. Planning to try and make Centurians work... I've got a cool paint scheme for them and thinking they could augment an infantry-only force. I think the two wounds is useful and is (ignoring insta-kill stuff) statistically like having an invul save.
Yeah, T5 and 2 wounds is pretty decent. I'm trying to decide whether I want a set of Grav-Cannon/Hurricane Bolter ones to replace my Vindicators or not, since Rolling to Hit is a lot more reliable than blast templates, especially against smaller groups/well spread out things. (it'd probably be a set of 3-4 of them, giving 15-20 grav cannon shots. They'd be going around with my Contemptor Mortis w/ Kheres).
So, 15-20 Grav Cannon shots vs 2 Demolisher Cannon shots - the Demolisher Cannons are probably better vs Hordes, but a lot easier to shut down than the Centurions. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure the Grav Cannons will put down well-spread 15 Grav Cannon shots is 10 hits, (12.5 if you are Ultramarines), and roughly around 2 6s - which is 3 Hullpoints. (2 Hullpoints + the double Immobilize = 3), which will take down the vast majority of vehicles. It'll be a very good chance if the Grav Amps allow you to reroll Armor Penetration shots, as well.
The Hurricane Bolters might end up doing more damage against Orks / Guardsmen, however, but against the Orks, you can always point those Grav Cannons at any Bikes/Mega Nobs/Tanks he has, while the rest of your army cuts down the infantry. Guardsmen, you can point them at the vehicles, as well... and, besides, your Vehicles weren't going to last very long against Guardsmen anyways.
Throw something like Tigurius or even a Librarian with spells to provide cover saves, and they'd be pretty well off. Alternatively for Devastator Centurions, Lascannons/Missile Launchers could be a pretty good combo for tank/heavy infantry hunting. Downside is that they put out less weight of fire, but get to do so from the relative safety of the Aegis Gunline. Again, Tigurius with cover-denial spells will ruin anyones day.
On the other hand, getting 6 Assault Centurions anywhere is going to be a pain in the ass. 19 S9 AP2 on initiative attacks on the charge sounds great, but... getting them there, on the other hand... >.>
Crazyterran wrote: On the other hand, getting 6 Assault Centurions anywhere is going to be a pain in the ass. 19 S9 AP2 on initiative attacks on the charge sounds great, but... getting them there, on the other hand... >.>
Mr Morden wrote: Wow - pity you did not actually read my post or you could have replied in a constructive way........
1. I did not say they were removing SCs - only that they should treat all the Chapters the same - but apparently you feel that only Ultramarines should get SCs - special snowflakes that they are.
2. I have an Ultramarine, Space Wolves and Dark Angels army - so again you are barking up the wrong tree mate if you think I am crying over my own Chapters.
3. You should look at your own rant and consider who is angry.
1: You implied that you would want to see Ultramarines Special Characters removed in your previous post, due to the fact that other chapters don't have as many special characters. Rather than remove them, they could have added more, or, can add them in supplements down the line. Why should already existing special characters be removed in place of new ones? In fact, as i'll discuss below, the only Ultramarines Special Character that is worth his points as things look now is Tigurius - and even that is debatable.
Not everyone is going to get equal attention. Not all Eldar Craftworlds get the same love in Codex: Eldar, or all the Dark Eldar Cabals. Hell, the Chaos Marine book is the most even handed one in those regards, but any Undivided legion other than the Black Legion gets screwed, too. There is a far larger uproar about Codex: Space Marine's Special Characters than any other - and it's frankly getting ridiculous.
3: I'm hardly angry. More tired of whining about Special Characters. Honestly, if someone wants to use Tigurius, they can take the Ultramarines chapter tactics. If someone wants to represent the Ultramarines First Company going to war, well, they can play Dark Angels. Or, run Crimson Fists/Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics.
And honestly, the vast majority of the Ultramarine Special Characters are pretty much worthless in a more 'competitive' game. Marneus Calgar can have 3 Warlord traits and gets buffs to God of War! All for 275pts, and he'll still probably lose to Abaddon and a good chance to lose against Draigo or Lysander. Sure, it provides strategic buffs to the army, but you'd probably be better off with Tigirius for a whole hell of a lot cheaper. Chaplains (Cassius) are hardly ever worth their points, as being stuck with an AP4 weapon when designed for Close Combat is pretty lame. Getting Hatred rather than Litanies of Hate will be great, but... I suppose, depending on the points cost of a normal chaplain, his T6 and FNP would be worth it, but, if Chaplains went down a decent amount...
Sicarius is 185pts now, but granting a free ability to a tactical squad, plus mediocre combat abilities, still isn't that great.
The only Ultramarine Character that'll be worth it, really, is most likely Tigurius. But, Kantor is useful, as is Vulkan. Lysander is still probably the best Combat Character in the book, even with his price hike. (Then again, if we can buy EW via relics, a bog standard Chapter Master might have him beat in that regard)
As for Telion, it even says in his fluff blurb that he goes and hangs out with other chapters that are close to the Ultramarines. Likely, they too follow the Ultramarines Doctrines. (But this is Okay, since if you are using Scouts, you'll probably be using Raven Guard or something - and Telion's stealth would be wasted)
As for Chronus... did anyone pay his stupid points costs outside of Apocalypse on a LR Terminus?
As for 'fluffy' games, you could always just ally in your Telion or what have you, and just make sure they have something to distinguish them. For example... being a different company.
What I said was - what I felt they should have done and I stick by that...............it would have made sure that not only do we get new SC models, we also get some new fluff on Chapters that are under represented.....which is sorely needed. Whereas what we do get is Centurions - awesome
You then go one to say that most of the Ultramarine SC are pointless - so what's the issue with taking some out and ether making them more generic or putting in new ones that can be used effectively. You cna still use the models as Chapter Masters, Captains etc unless you subscribe to some wierd idea that they can only represent the specific SC...........
The Eldar example doesn't compare as there are not restrictions on the SC that can be used together. I get the impression if they had been "even handed" and they had just put in 3 really good Ultramarine SCs it would have been you screaming and shouting about how your Chapter had been stripped of its fluffy chacraters (that also according to you don't really work, or are overpriced and no one uses).
As I mentioned before I don't have an bias towards one army so perhaps I can see it more objectively....................
Sure, they aren't great characters, but most of them have been there a while. The only character that should really have made a comeback is Captain Coteaz, since he's the only Space Marine SM I can think of that's really been removed. (Barring silly ones like half-eldar marine psykers or ones in the Armageddon/Eye of Terror books). You still don't have a good reason for removing them other than to 'make it fair' in the book that used to be Codex: Ultramarines. There's no real reason to remove them as they are, since anyone who wants to use a T6 Chaplain can simply use the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics, or anyone who wants to use a Captain with a Heavy Flamer and makes Meltas awesome can use the Salamanders Traits. And, they already have models for them, if you don't want to kitbash them yourselves!
Besides, everyone's already screaming about how much better the Ultramarine tactics are, right? So might as well take out that special character they get while you use their traits anyways!
I'd rather them release a new - even ugly - plastic kit that everyone can use than 2 - 3 new Special Characters they'll sell to the niche marine players. Theoritically, you can have 72 Centurions in an army over 2000pts (probably not practically), where as you could still only have one IronHands CharacterGuy.
Don't pretend you have some superiority over me because you happen to play Dark Angels and Space Wolves as well. I have a small Imperial Guard army that I don't have listed since I don't bring it out, as well as Tau.
So your main argument is that - "they were in one book so they always have to be there" - even if no one uses them? So why do I not have my Nefarti rules - I have the model but I can't use it as her (although I can as a Vampire) - the world did not end...........etc. What other reason do you have to keep them or more improtantly make them unique to Ultramarines - the primary army you play?
My good reason is I would rather have 3 Good SC's per Chapter than various poor Legacy ones - and as you keep saying anyone can use them - they just have to use the tactics for that Chapter or ally them in, but the issue is currently player s will have to use the Ultramarines one - for no apparent reason. It also seems to have made the writters focus on UM again as they have the most SCs/ possibly best Tactics so more people will play them and so the circle carries on.
I would rather they did not release a horrfically poor looking plastic kit that I will never use - no matter what the rules are for them. I think the concept and appearance is some of the worst work that GW have done and thats following truely shocking attempts at crowbaring in Space Marines flyers
re bias - I have substantial armies for all except Chaos Marines and Chaos Demons -and that my point - I am not playing one army and a few allied units..............
Killian wrote: When they come out with individual supplements for these chapters all the bitching will be for naught.
Which comes accross as "Screw you guys - I have my stuff - you can wait and pay extra .............."
Crazyterran wrote: On the other hand, getting 6 Assault Centurions anywhere is going to be a pain in the ass. 19 S9 AP2 on initiative attacks on the charge sounds great, but... getting them there, on the other hand... >.>
Two words: Land Raiders
Even a Crusader can't carry six.
I suppose it can carry five, though.
So your main argument is that - "they were in one book so they always have to be there" - even if no one uses them? So why do I not have my Nefarti rules - I have the model but I can't use it as her (although I can as a Vampire) - the world did not end...........etc. What other reason do you have to keep them or more improtantly make them unique to Ultramarines - the primary army you play?
My good reason is I would rather have 3 Good SC's per Chapter than various poor Legacy ones - and as you keep saying anyone can use them - they just have to use the tactics for that Chapter or ally them in, but the issue is currently player s will have to use the Ultramarines one - for no apparent reason. It also seems to have made the writters focus on UM again as they have the most SCs/ possibly best Tactics so more people will play them and so the circle carries on.
And if Ultramarines players want to use their Scoring Sternguard list from 5th, they have to use Crimson Fists. If Crimson Fists players want to use a beatstick, they have to use Imperial Fists (presuming they don't share), and if Raven Guard want to have awesome bikes, they get to use White Scars. If Imperial Fists want to have the rules to back up a Jump Pack strike force, they use Raven Guard... it's the same for everyone. Except, you know, the only character that changes scoring units in the army is a non-Ultramarines Character, and the most widely used character in the 5th Edition book is a Salamanders one. In fact, the vast majority of characters used out of the 5th Edition book was non-Ultramarines ones!
But, of course, the Ultramarines get all the love, woe for everyone else. Clearly the Ultramarines need to lose all of their fluffy special characters, because the Iron Hands need to have one or two, even though their chapter doesn't work anything like other Codex Chapters. Instead, of, you know, just adding a few extra characters! But clearly we need to take away from those greedy Ultramarines!
So, your 'good' reason is essentially, despite the fact that everyone will have to adjust to the Chapter Tactics/Special Characters change, 'screw the Ultramarines'.
Also, please tell us more about how amazing you are for all the different armies you play, and how unbiased this makes you.
EDIT: Though in fairness, the Iron Hands do get boned, but they've gotten boned since before fourth edition in a very continuous basis. At least Forge World gives them some indirect love via Sons of Medusa.
No yet again you did not read my post - I said 3 GOOD SCs for ewach Chapter including Ultrmarines - you know trhe ones you went on and on about how poor they are............
Please keep reminded us all how fixated on one army you are and how the smallest change to your beloved chapter screws you over.
Mr Morden wrote: No yet again you did not read my post - I said 3 GOOD SCs for ewach Chapter including Ultrmarines - you know trhe ones you went on and on about how poor they are............
Please keep reminded us all how fixated on one army you are and how the smallest change to your beloved chapter screws you over.
I play Ultramarines FFS - can't you read
It doesn't screw me over at all. And yeah, I even said you played Ultramarines. Maybe you should read my posts? And, having three equally good characters for each chapter is an idiotically impossible task. Someone would still be getting shafted, tears ensue.
And, seven characters isn't a 'small' change. It would be needlessly removing seven characters. I would be just as annoyed if someone suggested removing Lysander, Pedro, Vulkan, or any other character from the book. In fact, previously, I was excited when there were older rumors saying that there would be an Iron Hands Iron Father character and Salamanders character.
Just because I don't agree with what you say and get on my knees for you doesn't mean I'm not reading your post. Maybe you are expressing your thoughts poorly. Or maybe your posts are stupid? Then again, you are clearly so much superior to anyone who thinks that the Special Characters should stay, because, you know, you play so many armies.
EDIT: Clearly I am focused solely on the Ultramarines. Maybe I should start crying how Ultramarines lost stuff that made them unique between the 4th and 5th edition books? Tyrannic War Veterans! Oh noes! Ultramarines Honor Guard and the Axes of Macragge! Oh noes!
Oh wait, those were good changes for everyone. Yay!
It is amazing how we have been told that we dont have all the information on how these things work but are already decrying them as bad, or screwing people over, or other such nonsense.
Here is the thing that was clearly covered. YOU CAN ALLY WITH THE BOOK.
So you want Tigerius in your army? all it requires is that you take a minimum of 2HQ 3 Troops. Now if you want to min/max everything with the chapter tactics then no you can't. But outside of that almost everything that was possible before is still possible now. I used to run pedro and lysander, I still can if I want to because I can ally him in. They will even have all the same rules for combat tactics. Now I will probably not do this anymore because from the sounds of things other units will make my list work better.(It will be interesting to see if Space Marines get access to all the core rulebook disciplines)
Want telion? take a squad of scouts. Chronus? Simply add a small ultra marines detachment.
They even went out of their way to make the ultramarines chapter tactics pretty good so you are not even really hurting your army by taking a small ultramarines detachment that you can then further specialize.
Seems like they tried their best to make models useable in any army and I am grateful for the diversity available especially when you factor in allies, even from other space marine army books.
Iron Hands from what I gather are going to have it better than they have had it since chapter approved.
BT are getting rolled in, but short of the ultramarines I think they are getting the most special characters, their own special HQ and units configurations as well as being updated instead of being forced into the update que behind whatever other books would come along. Overall I think that is a bonus.
Ultramarines have the most special characters, they have the most chapter tactics diversity but guess what. THEY REPRESENT THE MOST CHAPTERS IN THE SETTING.
Zion could you add that to the list of questions? What disciplines do regular librarians get access to?
Look - you started the vitrol in your first reponse so don't come over all high and mighty now................
Its not removing people from the universe, its removing charcters that you say no plays cos they are rubbish and swapping out ones that people would - or is that impossble.
Plus if its Soooo impossible I guess there won't be any new characters in the the other SM codex's as apparently it just too hard to do this for anyone else - sorry not hard "Idiotically impossible?" So we should just give up and not bother trying - wonderful...........
So why is it ok to "bone Iron Hands"beacuse they always have?
Zion could you add that to the list of questions? What disciplines do regular librarians get access to?
Quite a few pages back it was said that we'll keep the same disciplines from the main rule book as we have now. I haven't seen anything saying there won't be any new powers for us to roll for in the new codex though, so that remains a possibility (and I'll be surprised if there isn't a SM discipline in there).
Mr Morden wrote: Look - you started the vitrol in your first reponse so don't come over all high and mighty now................
Its not removing people from the universe, its removing charcters that you say no plays cos they are rubbish and swapping out ones that people would - or is that impossble.
Plus if its Soooo impossible I guess there won't be any new characters in the the other SM codex's as apparently it just too hard to do this for anyone else - sorry not hard "Idiotically impossible?" So we should just give up and not bother trying - wonderful...........
So why is it ok to "bone Iron Hands"beacuse they always have?
Coming off high and mighty? How could I! I mean, you play every army in the game but the Chaos ones - it's not like you don't know better than everyone else!
So, three Special Characters for every 'main' chapter represented in this book - twenty four, if we include the Crimson Fists. Making them all good would be absolutely impossible. There would still be brokenly good ones, terrible ones, and there would still be tears. Not to mention the tears over the fact that the Codex: Space Marine book would have twenty four characters while all other books are lucky if they have eight or nine. Unless, of course, you didn't mean every one of the main chapters, in which case, who is it okay for them to not get the same as the others, since you want everything to be completely fair!
Clearly, according to you, just adding an Iron Hands character or two is right out of the question. We have to remove Ultramarines characters to make room! Instead of just adding a Master of the Forge character with a Captain's statline that has a few unique rules that represent an Iron Father for the Iron Hands. Nope! Get out of there, Chronus! Goodbye, Telion! Adios, Sicarius!
And I didn't say it's okay to bone the Iron Hands, just that's the fact of the matter.
Did you even play during Fourth Edition? I mean, seriously, did you? If not, you shouldn't really be talking about how terribly bad other chapters have now.
Zion could you add that to the list of questions? What disciplines do regular librarians get access to?
Quite a few pages back it was said that we'll keep the same disciplines from the main rule book as we have now. I haven't seen anything saying there won't be any new powers for us to roll for in the new codex though, so that remains a possibility (and I'll be surprised if there isn't a SM discipline in there).
They already said there is no Space Marine unique power tree, and that Tigurius is getting Divination rather than his own unique power.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: It could be the folk are underestimating how 'Special' the special characters are meant to be
Lysander (for example is unique), a one of a kind, special. There is only one of him
so you shouldn't be able to put a lookie-likey into a homebrew chapter
Yes, I can see how that makes sense. Next time in a tournament with ny Eldar if my opponent fields e.g. Eldrad I will point out to him that he is not allowed to field him, because Eldrad is unique. Doh.. You were being sarcastic, were you not?
I find it really difficult to see GW's framework or thoughts behind the way they do things.
For example the IF get Lysander - But he's not even the Boss - Vladimir Pugh is...But they get the 1st Captain instead.
UM's get a full choice and Extra low level characters like Sergeants. Raven Guard get Shrike, but No Chapter Master. Salamanders get Vulkan He'stan (4th Company Captain) , but no Tu'Shan who is their Chapter master. White Scars get Kor'sarro Khan (3rd Company Captain) , But no Chapter Master Jubal Khan. Iron hands get an oversized drill bit inserted in the rear.
I think a Chapter Master and another Captain is fair for every founding Chapter. A few others for chapters of Note :-
Crimson Fists, Cortez & Kantor. Black Templars etc.
They could even Share Special Rules, so you get a special Command Option, and another "Bigger Brother Version" Command Option. They are the same Chapter so would share their rules. Instead we get a scattergun, nonsensical crazy set of options.
So, three Special Characters for every 'main' chapter represented in this book - twenty four, if we include the Crimson Fists. Making them all good would be absolutely impossible. There would still be brokenly good ones, terrible ones, and there would still be tears. Not to mention the tears over the fact that the Codex: Space Marine book would have twenty four characters while all other books are lucky if they have eight or nine. Unless, of course, you didn't mean every one of the main chapters, in which case, who is it okay for them to not get the same as the others, since you want everything to be completely fair!
Clearly, according to you, just adding an Iron Hands character or two is right out of the question. We have to remove Ultramarines characters to make room! Instead of just adding a Master of the Forge character with a Captain's statline that has a few unique rules that represent an Iron Father for the Iron Hands. Nope! Get out of there, Chronus! Goodbye, Telion! Adios, Sicarius!
And I didn't say it's okay to bone the Iron Hands, just that's the fact of the matter.
Did you even play during Fourth Edition? I mean, seriously, did you? If not, you shouldn't really be talking about how terribly bad other chapters have now.
Yes I played 4th ed - and the other editions too.
24 SCs - Ok, thats fine, its a bigger book than other codexes if I read it correctly so thats fine - and yes lets have 3 each rather than 6 and 1 each (or none) - and if there is not room - then yes lets take out some redundant UM characters (which is you view on them remember) and put them in the special UM codex that will then come out? The Badab books managed 22 Scs..........
Why is some fairness so bad ? Why do other Chapters have to make do?
Again you have not answered the question - why is it impossible to create any new SCs for other Chapters but somehow other marine players should sit quietly and emrely wait for their expensive special codexes where these "Impossible" SCs wiull somehow appear?
So far I am very happy with the rumors. I play Hawk Lords, which are a successor chapter to Raven Guard. I have been collecting a painting for years now and yes I have won a few tourneys. I have never used any of the special charters as I think they belong with their home chapter. What will change for me now is, I will ally with Shrike and the Raven Guard. This means that I will have to buy and paint a few new models. I hope that this will cause people to paint more chapters to ally with. I am excited about this, imagine all the combos that this will bring to a tournament.
This is the biggest change to marines I can remember. While I do feel for the people for whom this change will be difficult, I think that these changes fit how marines work and improve the game as a whole.
Special charters are supposed to be special not something that you see teamed up together in every tourney list. Maybe Shrike or Calgar or whatever will have the spotlight that they deserve. I hope my opponent will see my SC and go "holy crap is that who I think!".
And now back to the "sky is Falling" thread.
Zion could you add that to the list of questions? What disciplines do regular librarians get access to?
Quite a few pages back it was said that we'll keep the same disciplines from the main rule book as we have now. I haven't seen anything saying there won't be any new powers for us to roll for in the new codex though, so that remains a possibility (and I'll be surprised if there isn't a SM discipline in there).
They already said there is no Space Marine unique power tree, and that Tigurius is getting Divination rather than his own unique power.
I've seen it said that a libby cannot just take Null Zone every time as is done now, but no mention yet of there not being a new discipline, with or without Null Zone. Aside from NZ, I think the other C:SM powers have been incorporated into the main rule book, so maybe SM won't get a discipline all our own for this reason, but I'd still be surprised if this was the first new codex that didn't include even one new power for its psykers to take.
battlematt wrote: Special charters are supposed to be special not something that you see teamed up together in every tourney list. Maybe Shrike or Calgar or whatever will have the spotlight that they deserve. I hope my opponent will see my SC and go "holy crap is that who I think!".
Why would they ever do that? They're a piece of plastic/metal/resin that is commercially available to everyone. The thing is, while in the fluff and the background, you're right, these special characters are unique and rare, once you actually look at the game, there's nothing "special" about them other than the rules they bring to the table. It's not like Calgar will only show up in your list by some flight of fancy because there is one Calgar model roaming the world, dropping into games as it pleases. You see a character in the codex, you like the rules and want to use them in a game, you pay the points. That's the extent to which they are special.
No they lost their uniqueness when you could take them all together without any restriction. I mean who cares what chapter they are from when they are all piled together in a cheese list.
So, three Special Characters for every 'main' chapter represented in this book - twenty four, if we include the Crimson Fists. Making them all good would be absolutely impossible. There would still be brokenly good ones, terrible ones, and there would still be tears. Not to mention the tears over the fact that the Codex: Space Marine book would have twenty four characters while all other books are lucky if they have eight or nine. Unless, of course, you didn't mean every one of the main chapters, in which case, who is it okay for them to not get the same as the others, since you want everything to be completely fair!
Clearly, according to you, just adding an Iron Hands character or two is right out of the question. We have to remove Ultramarines characters to make room! Instead of just adding a Master of the Forge character with a Captain's statline that has a few unique rules that represent an Iron Father for the Iron Hands. Nope! Get out of there, Chronus! Goodbye, Telion! Adios, Sicarius!
And I didn't say it's okay to bone the Iron Hands, just that's the fact of the matter.
Did you even play during Fourth Edition? I mean, seriously, did you? If not, you shouldn't really be talking about how terribly bad other chapters have now.
Yes I played 4th ed - and the other editions too.
24 SCs - Ok, thats fine, its a bigger book than other codexes if I read it correctly so thats fine - and yes lets have 3 each rather than 6 and 1 each (or none) - and if there is not room - then yes lets take out some redundant UM characters (which is you view on them remember) and put them in the special UM codex that will then come out? The Badab books managed 22 Scs..........
Why is some fairness so bad ? Why do other Chapters have to make do?
Again you have not answered the question - why is it impossible to create any new SCs for other Chapters but somehow other marine players should sit quietly and emrely wait for their expensive special codexes where these "Impossible" SCs wiull somehow appear?
It's not, ideally there would be no supplements and it would all be in the main codex. Also, the badab *books* did have twenty two special characters. Over multiple books. As in, more than one, and each of those Badab Books are probably bigger than the Codex: Space Marines is going to be.
They could also make new Special Characters without removing anything. I also didn't say that the Ultramarines characters are redundant, I just said that they aren't competitive/good. Cassius (or any Chaplain) is not competitive. I would love for them to add Tu'shan, Vladmir Pugh, Jubal Khan, and whomever the Raven Guard Chapter Master is. They could've added them all into the Codex, and I would have been thrilled! More flavour is good!
Doesn't mean they'd have to remove anything.
All I'm arguing is that they don't need to remove anything. You are the one turning this into things needing to be removed to make room for others, when people are perfectly capable of using the characters already available. I would be overjoyed if they added more characters - it adds more depth to the overall story. However, removing characters to add characters means that somebody is losing out for someone else - and that's stupid. Who's to say that if they removed Telion, Chronus, Sicarius, that they would necessarily add anything to replace them? They didn't replace Coteaz, for example.
Zion could you add that to the list of questions? What disciplines do regular librarians get access to?
Quite a few pages back it was said that we'll keep the same disciplines from the main rule book as we have now. I haven't seen anything saying there won't be any new powers for us to roll for in the new codex though, so that remains a possibility (and I'll be surprised if there isn't a SM discipline in there).
They already said there is no Space Marine unique power tree, and that Tigurius is getting Divination rather than his own unique power.
I've seen it said that a libby cannot just take Null Zone every time as is done now, but no mention yet of there not being a new discipline, with or without Null Zone. Aside from NZ, I think the other C:SM powers have been incorporated into the main rule book, so maybe SM won't get a discipline all our own for this reason, but I'd still be surprised if this was the first new codex that didn't include even one new power for its psykers to take.
I think I read somewhere that they won't be replacing our Codex powers, but I'm too tired to look now - maybe tomorrow. (or later today, but it isn't tomorrow until I sleep, damnit!)
battlematt wrote: No they lost their uniqueness when you could take them all together without any restriction. I mean who cares what chapter they are from when they are all piled together in a cheese list.
General warning--some of the responses in this thread are skirting the line between spirited disagreement and becoming personal. Remember, toy soldiers and all that. Thanks.
I can see special charters in an APOC game but for under 3000pts, they should be with their home forces. If we are free to put whatever charter with any chapter they lose what they represent. That hurts the fluff, which is central to why we play the game. Crimson fists versus Nids is a great example. We care because of the fluff.
So, three Special Characters for every 'main' chapter represented in this book - twenty four, if we include the Crimson Fists. Making them all good would be absolutely impossible. There would still be brokenly good ones, terrible ones, and there would still be tears. Not to mention the tears over the fact that the Codex: Space Marine book would have twenty four characters while all other books are lucky if they have eight or nine. Unless, of course, you didn't mean every one of the main chapters, in which case, who is it okay for them to not get the same as the others, since you want everything to be completely fair!
Clearly, according to you, just adding an Iron Hands character or two is right out of the question. We have to remove Ultramarines characters to make room! Instead of just adding a Master of the Forge character with a Captain's statline that has a few unique rules that represent an Iron Father for the Iron Hands. Nope! Get out of there, Chronus! Goodbye, Telion! Adios, Sicarius!
And I didn't say it's okay to bone the Iron Hands, just that's the fact of the matter.
Did you even play during Fourth Edition? I mean, seriously, did you? If not, you shouldn't really be talking about how terribly bad other chapters have now.
Yes I played 4th ed - and the other editions too.
24 SCs - Ok, thats fine, its a bigger book than other codexes if I read it correctly so thats fine - and yes lets have 3 each rather than 6 and 1 each (or none) - and if there is not room - then yes lets take out some redundant UM characters (which is you view on them remember) and put them in the special UM codex that will then come out? The Badab books managed 22 Scs..........
Why is some fairness so bad ? Why do other Chapters have to make do?
Again you have not answered the question - why is it impossible to create any new SCs for other Chapters but somehow other marine players should sit quietly and emrely wait for their expensive special codexes where these "Impossible" SCs wiull somehow appear?
It's not, ideally there would be no supplements and it would all be in the main codex. Also, the badab *books* did have twenty two special characters. Over multiple books. As in, more than one, and each of those Badab Books are probably bigger than the Codex: Space Marines is going to be.
They could also make new Special Characters without removing anything. I also didn't say that the Ultramarines characters are redundant, I just said that they aren't competitive/good. Cassius (or any Chaplain) is not competitive. I would love for them to add Tu'shan, Vladmir Pugh, Jubal Khan, and whomever the Raven Guard Chapter Master is. They could've added them all into the Codex, and I would have been thrilled! More flavour is good!
Doesn't mean they'd have to remove anything.
All I'm arguing is that they don't need to remove anything. You are the one turning this into things needing to be removed to make room for others, when people are perfectly capable of using the characters already available. I would be overjoyed if they added more characters - it adds more depth to the overall story. However, removing characters to add characters means that somebody is losing out for someone else - and that's stupid. Who's to say that if they removed Telion, Chronus, Sicarius, that they would necessarily add anything to replace them? They didn't replace Coteaz, for example.
Yes I agree the Bafab books are 200 pages each but they do have massively more fluff any codex will have (sadly) - plus rules for BFG and other extra add ons to the main system - my point is they managed to create 22 new SCs so I really think that they could do 24 if they wanted to - what I am saying is that lets give everyone the cool stuff!! I confess I am happy that GW is giving us more fluff and stuff in terms of the supplements but most of it should have been in the actual codexes as you say.
General warning--some of the responses in this thread are skirting the line between spirited disagreement and becoming personal. Remember, toy soldiers and all that. Thanks. Ryan
battlematt wrote: Special charters are supposed to be special not something that you see teamed up together in every tourney list. Maybe Shrike or Calgar or whatever will have the spotlight that they deserve. I hope my opponent will see my SC and go "holy crap is that who I think!".
Why would they ever do that? They're a piece of plastic/metal/resin that is commercially available to everyone. The thing is, while in the fluff and the background, you're right, these special characters are unique and rare, once you actually look at the game, there's nothing "special" about them other than the rules they bring to the table. It's not like Calgar will only show up in your list by some flight of fancy because there is one Calgar model roaming the world, dropping into games as it pleases. You see a character in the codex, you like the rules and want to use them in a game, you pay the points. That's the extent to which they are special.
we call not playing with special characters (unless you had permission) 3rd edition...
battlematt wrote: I can see special charters in an APOC game but for under 3000pts, they should be with their home forces. If we are free to put whatever charter with any chapter they lose what they represent. That hurts the fluff, which is central to why we play the game. Crimson fists versus Nids is a great example. We care because of the fluff.
Then you are perfectly free to play that way yourself! But I don't think it's right to impose that preference on everyone else, especially people who view the fluff and the gameplay as separate things.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Weasel wrote: we call not playing with special characters (unless you had permission) 3rd edition...
So you're saying it's outdated and a step backwards?
@MandalorynOran It seems that we do view the game with different goals. I hope that we can find a common excitement in the coming codex. Whenever we have a new one it does amp up my excitement to play, experiment with lists and plan tourneys. Good luck to you.
xruslanx wrote: honestly sick of this whinging. Please just cut it out guys.
This. +9000. Also, quit quoting fluff and background. Who cares if a Templar is a better fighter than a Space Wolve? Let's talk about the rumors, shall we?
battlematt wrote: @MandalorynOran It seems that we do view the game with different goals. I hope that we can find a common excitement in the coming codex. Whenever we have a new one it does amp up my excitement to play, experiment with lists and plan tourneys. Good luck to you.
Totally fair, best of luck to you too. I don't actually play marines, though, just interested for the sake of the game as a whole.
Leth wrote: Zion could you add that to the list of questions? What disciplines do regular librarians get access to?
Codex power are gone. They still have the same disciplines from the codex. Tigirius has access to all the disciplines.
Given the kind of confused way some questions have been answered, I don't think "Codex powers are gone" should necessarily be read as "There are no powers specific to this codex."
Leth wrote: Zion could you add that to the list of questions? What disciplines do regular librarians get access to?
Codex power are gone. They still have the same disciplines from the codex. Tigirius has access to all the disciplines.
Given the kind of confused way some questions have been answered, I don't think "Codex powers are gone" should necessarily be read as "There are no powers specific to this codex."
Currently the book has psychic powers in it for your Librarian to choose. Those are gone. Hence, Codex powers are gone.
Here's a supporting quote from 40k Radio:
Q: Did the Codex Powers change?
A: They use the psychic powers out of the rule book, so null zone and the other powers are gone.
mwnciboo wrote: I find it really difficult to see GW's framework or thoughts behind the way they do things.
For example the IF get Lysander - But he's not even the Boss - Vladimir Pugh is...But they get the 1st Captain instead.
UM's get a full choice and Extra low level characters like Sergeants.
Raven Guard get Shrike, but No Chapter Master.
Salamanders get Vulkan He'stan (4th Company Captain) , but no Tu'Shan who is their Chapter master.
White Scars get Kor'sarro Khan (3rd Company Captain) , But no Chapter Master Jubal Khan.
Iron hands get an oversized drill bit inserted in the rear.
I think a Chapter Master and another Captain is fair for every founding Chapter. A few others for chapters of Note :-
Crimson Fists, Cortez & Kantor.
Black Templars etc.
They could even Share Special Rules, so you get a special Command Option, and another "Bigger Brother Version" Command Option. They are the same Chapter so would share their rules. Instead we get a scattergun, nonsensical crazy set of options.
This is pure speculation on my behalf, but perhaps the chapter masters are supposed to be represented by the unit entry "Chapter Master". Likewise the captains might be represented by the unit entry "Space Marine Captain". Just imagine they are good enough, and have options enough, to make a fair aproximation.
Fayric wrote: This is pure speculation on my behalf, but perhaps the chapter masters are supposed to be represented by the unit entry "Chapter Master". Likewise the captains might be represented by the unit entry "Space Marine Captain". Just imagine they are good enough, and have options enough, to make a fair aproximation.
Adding to that, the Captain is 10 points cheaper from the start, and Chapter Masters went up a wound and an attack each. Honestly the generic ones are looking pretty good to me.
mwnciboo wrote: I find it really difficult to see GW's framework or thoughts behind the way they do things.
.
I'll make it easy for you.
For 18 years it has been Codex: Space Marines, Starring: The Ultramarines, Guest Starring: Those Other Guys.
Now the Guest Stars just get slightly more exposure than in the past, however, it doesn't instantly negate the fact that there have been rules and models for Ultramarines for 18 years. Calgar, Tigurius and Cassius date back to 1995 and 2nd Edition.
The problem people have is perspective. They get angry that "The Ultramarines get everything". Actually no, no they don't. The Ultramarines have to share their codex with everyone else.
Why don't you complain about the Blood Angels getting all of their own books and rules? After all, the Blood Angels have six special characters. Isn't that unfair too? The Dark Angels have five. The Space Wolves have eight.
The reality is, if you chose a niche army, then you have to deal with it. For nearly 20 years, there has been a Big Four. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Ultramarines. If you chose somebody other than those four, you did so knowing you had chosen a fringe chapter that was not one of the Big Four.
The reality is, with 1,000 Chapters, Nine Legions, and Four Codex books, only a few somebodies are going to be the Star, and everyone else is going to be Those Other Guys.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Technically Calgar goes back further than that, but in terms of the era of "Codex" army books and Special Characters.
Leth wrote: Here is the thing that was clearly covered. YOU CAN ALLY WITH THE BOOK.
Yup, and we can. And that's awesome (both from ours and GW's POVs. I can see the same happening to Orks and IG, at least. Nids got it too, say the rumours). But... how about people who use, i.e. Kantor + Vulkan and IG allies? Or any other codex? How can they repeat that? You have to choose between allying with your own codex or IG. No other codex has limitations like that (barring supplements).
Well, for me it's no big deal... if the other Chapters get new SCs in their suppplements. White Scars' one is coming in October - if it sports new SCs (with new and unique rules), yay! If it brings only 2-3 pages of some rules and that's it... the whining will continue!
Ultramarines have the most special characters, they have the most chapter tactics diversity but guess what. THEY REPRESENT THE MOST CHAPTERS IN THE SETTING.
Think about it in the other way: the number of people playing all other chapters and non-UM related successors is bigger or smaller than the people playing UM and its successors? I think, IMO, it's alike the "long tail" theory - people like the big hits, but the smaller sales are greater than the big hits themselves, all summed up. So, that's no reason to just put more UM SCs than those other Chapters'. I understand it would take some significant time to create new guys (and their minis!) for the Marine Bible... and that's why people want to see new SCs in the supplements.
My main take on SCs in supplements is the possibility of creating truly different playstyles - or, as they say, 7 armies in one codex. Even with Chapter Traits, you can play with your SM dudes way alike an IH player - if you pick generalistic HQs and stuff. Of course, you can (and probably will) build them differently, but nothing is stopping you of using the same tactics. SCs bring unique rules that cannot be repeated by the general characters - and even other SCs. They bring unique playstyles!
Has there been any confirmation that there will actually be any new SCs in the Supplementary Codex.
One would have thought Iyanna Arienal would have been retained as a full SC (*) in Iyanden but she wasn't. I don't know about Farsight Enclave............
Xanrn wrote: Farsight Enclave has like 8 Characters in it.
Black Legion and Iyanden had diddily squat in them, except for new Artifact lists(in Black Legion's case they HAD to use).
So Magic 8 ball, says good chance no new characters and a mild chance to get "screwed" on the Artifacts.
Meh aslong as the Eternal Warrior artifact is true.
No, the farsight book has 7 "special characters" which are just things you can buy normally in the codex (except the IC riptide). The farsight book just added a few rules (xv-8's as troops) and some new wargear options.
What I am getting from this is that some players think that special characters is what made their army tick. That is understandable but the reason why SC seem to have that much power is that they changed the Chapter Tactics. Now instead of being RESTRICTED by being force to use a SC to get the Chapter Tactic you wanted, you have the ability to choose without paying the tax that was known as a SC. I feel liberated by the thought of not using SC and still getting what is essentially a free buff.
This notion that GW is severely limiting its players by not allowing players the ability to take multiple SC in their primary detachment is silly.
Which option do you find more restrictive?
A. Pay x amount of points to get a SC who changes your Chapter Tactic
or
B. Choose your Chapter Tactic
Yes, every other codex allows you to take any combination of SC without using allies but, name a codex that allows you to pick one of seven different rule sets that completely changes the play style of any list without taking a SC? It is unprecedented, previously you could pay close to 400 points to get two SC who gave a similar effect but now we get it for free.
GW saw it the way I saw it why make a player pay for a SC to get their chosen Chapter's Tactic. We were basically being force to pay a tax and now we have players mad that they no longer have to pay their taxes! Instead we get players who want to select their free buff (Chapter Tactic) than they want to pay some points for a SC which will give them another buff, than they want to pay some more points for another SC to get another buff, and than you have the option to use allies to get another buff! Do you honestly believe that is fair to other codexes? Yes, it is fair because I can write some cool fluff to justify it!
It has been said, can't recall where, that the studio are producing less complex books first, as they are a new thing for them to develop, and will delay the more complex supplements that require a greater number of special rules, FOC changes or SCs to do the army justice until they are more confident with their execution.
So, if there isn't a rumoured supplement for your chosen sub faction for a while, this is actually
Listening to the podcast now, will update as things show up
So far the missile launcher tank has a tracking feature, so if you miss at the start of the next shooting phase on a 5+ the missile will hit the flier it shot at
Lots of new art. some black and white in color, each founding chapter gets their own section. Successor chapters get a nod, 1-2 paragraphs. The guy compared the background to Forgeworld background In IA.
Each character has a symbol next to their name saying what chapter tactics they use. To use the SC you have to use that chapter tactics for your army
Just choose what chapter tactics you want to use, then see which special characters you can use
You can ally with your codex as long as they use different chapter tactics
Leth wrote: Listening to the podcast now, will update as things show up
So far the missile launcher tank has a tracking feature, so if you miss at the start of the next shooting phase on a 5+ the missile will hit the flier it shot at
Lots of new art. some black and white in color, each founding chapter gets their own section. Successor chapters get a nod, 1-2 paragraphs. The guy compared the background to Forgeworld backround In IA.
I'm working on it now as well. I was just going to do a mass update once I was done listening to it.
Well they don't sound so appealing anymore. IF sound way better. Then again, I never cared much (bar the apparent UM fanboyism), as I play White Scars.
chapters? You can't give them an extra turn (way too much), but you can reward them just a few extra shots here and there (reroll 1s and 
-- that wasn't what the conversation was about. It was about being able to field a fluffy army with rules befitting that chapter/legion.
). I've got problems with the ridiculousness of the Space Wolves fluff, given that they get to ignore the rules of Space Marines any time it makes them cooler. "Space Marines can't get drunk. Their blood is super filtered." "Oh yeah? Well Space Wolves invented super booze to get drunk on." "Space Marines have to be recruited at a young age because they have to start organ implementation before the onset of puberty." "Oh yeah? Well Space Wolves can be recruited in their teens so they can bang chicks before being Space Marines." "Space Marines are heavily indoctrinated warriors with little to no personality and spend their entire lives preparing for, and going to, war." "Oh yeah? Well Space Wolves are fookin' Space Vikings! How ya'all losers like them apples?" "Space Marines have short cropped hair and shave their faces so they can properly seal their helmets without worrying about compromising the eviro-seals." "Oh yeah? Pony tails and beards all around!"
where is the excitement, I cant wait to get my Imperial Fist limited edition codex I like the rule changes but these other players are killing my vibe.
), but at one point the transcript mentions the Iron Hands have a specific chapter tactic but then it does not tell what the Iron Hands chapter tactic rule actually is. Does anyone know what the Iron Hands get?
