dkellyj wrote: A lot of this would depend on the wording of the Chapter Tactics. Does Kantor make SternGuard "Scoring" or "Troops".
If the later...then you can bring a Chapter Master and his "special guys." If the former you can play games like this.
Note: This was made with old codex points, but its close enough:
U/M Captain
U/M Tac Squad (reroll shots), Flamer, HB, Rhino
U/M Tac Squad (reroll shots), Flamer, HB, Rhino
Kantor
Scout Squad (troop)
Sternguard x10, (scoring) drop pod
Vulkan
Tac Squad, Melta, M-Melta, drop pod (T/L tank killers)
Khan (with bike)
Bike Squad x8 (troops)
That runs about 1865 points, plenty left over to kit out special weapons on the U/M Capt and the sgts. Or switch the Captain for Calgar just to give a hard to kill HQ in the mix). It gives you 5 troops (6 scoring units that can combat squad into 11 scoring units) with each unit type gaining the special rules that maximize their weapons/wargear. Scoring Sternguard with special ammo to kill MCs. T/L meltas podding in to kill tanks on turn 1. Bikes to move in quick and tie up critical unikts (Tau Pathfinders...remove Markerlights from Tau synergy), and a bunch of rerolling bolters (with some flamers) to deal with horde units.
Of course I would expect to see 4 different colors of Space Marine on the board.
(EDIT) This also lets you play other shenanigans...dropping one of the allied units and bringing a Grey Knight Ally, Champion HQ, Strike squad with Halberds and hammer in a Rhino...and a Vindicaire to bust his uber HQs 2/3++ invul or pop tanks with the 4 dice of punching.
Or Bringing some Wolves to the party. Or the trusty IG just to get a Vendetta to hunt Flyers and punk other Uber Multi-wound Characters (but then your loosing your "how many different flavors of power Armor can I stick in 1 Army just to be That Guy"...although you can stick the 10 Vets and the Commisar Lord inside the Vendetta to hide their non-power armor bodies).
I don't think that's legal. Isn't it ONE allied detachment per FOC?
lord_blackfang wrote: I wonder how the Allies thing will be worded. Hoping you'll be able to ally two chapters with the same Traits.
just to get 4 HS choices 4 Elites and 4 Fast Attack slots?
or to take Calgar, Sicarius and Tigurius in a 1500 point game?
I dont see the point
I honestly just want that 4th Fast Attack. Marines are allowed 4 slots anyway through mixing chapters, so I could just ally some DA or whatever, but I'd feel better if I could just field more of the chapter that I actually play.
I'm sure everybody else simply wants a 4th slot of some kind for the army they already play, but that's not how the rules work so why should we have it any different?
SickSix wrote: Don't know if it has been mentioned but it is very possible the that the new tanks contain a rule sheet in the box that will make them valid for entries for DA.
Oh, like those rules for the Nephilim/Plasma Cannon Termies that Codex: Space Marines got when the Dark Angel book released!
Wait a minute, Codex: Space Marines didn't get that!
I guess Dark Angels are just gak out of luck.
I don`t think any Dark Angels players would bat an eyelash if the Nephilim was to be transferred to another book....
What I would love to have is a basic "HQ" box that has shoulder pads and weapons to make Chaplains or Librarians, instead of the static plastic guys we seem to be getting.
SickSix wrote: Don't know if it has been mentioned but it is very possible the that the new tanks contain a rule sheet in the box that will make them valid for entries for DA.
Oh, like those rules for the Nephilim/Plasma Cannon Termies that Codex: Space Marines got when the Dark Angel book released!
Wait a minute, Codex: Space Marines didn't get that!
I guess Dark Angels are just gak out of luck.
I don`t think any Dark Angels players would bat an eyelash if the Nephilim was to be transferred to another book....
Im not sure they would sell 1 single additional kit
SickSix wrote: Don't know if it has been mentioned but it is very possible the that the new tanks contain a rule sheet in the box that will make them valid for entries for DA.
Oh, like those rules for the Nephilim/Plasma Cannon Termies that Codex: Space Marines got when the Dark Angel book released!
Wait a minute, Codex: Space Marines didn't get that!
I guess Dark Angels are just gak out of luck.
I don`t think any Dark Angels players would bat an eyelash if the Nephilim was to be transferred to another book....
That wasn't the point, really. None of the special speeders, etc. Have Codex: Space Marine versions, so why do people keep expecting other codices to receive new toys from this book?
Honestly, I'm probably not going to use the Stalker or Hunter. But, on the other hand, I don't understand why people think that Dark Angels or Blood Angels etc. are going to get anything out of this release.
Other than new Tactical Marines/Veterans to use, or at least convert, with.
EDIT: I think I could understand asking about Grav Guns, since they are adding it to the Tactical Marine box. That would be a reasonable thing to ask about, imo.
dkellyj wrote: A lot of this would depend on the wording of the Chapter Tactics. Does Kantor make SternGuard "Scoring" or "Troops".
If the later...then you can bring a Chapter Master and his "special guys." If the former you can play games like this.
Note: This was made with old codex points, but its close enough:
U/M Captain
U/M Tac Squad (reroll shots), Flamer, HB, Rhino
U/M Tac Squad (reroll shots), Flamer, HB, Rhino
Kantor
Scout Squad (troop)
Sternguard x10, (scoring) drop pod
Vulkan
Tac Squad, Melta, M-Melta, drop pod (T/L tank killers)
Khan (with bike)
Bike Squad x8 (troops)
That runs about 1865 points, plenty left over to kit out special weapons on the U/M Capt and the sgts. Or switch the Captain for Calgar just to give a hard to kill HQ in the mix). It gives you 5 troops (6 scoring units that can combat squad into 11 scoring units) with each unit type gaining the special rules that maximize their weapons/wargear. Scoring Sternguard with special ammo to kill MCs. T/L meltas podding in to kill tanks on turn 1. Bikes to move in quick and tie up critical unikts (Tau Pathfinders...remove Markerlights from Tau synergy), and a bunch of rerolling bolters (with some flamers) to deal with horde units.
Of course I would expect to see 4 different colors of Space Marine on the board.
you will likely be limited to 1 allied detachment. No way to get 4 HQs in 1 force org unless you are SW.
dkellyj wrote: A lot of this would depend on the wording of the Chapter Tactics. Does Kantor make SternGuard "Scoring" or "Troops".
If the later...then you can bring a Chapter Master and his "special guys." If the former you can play games like this.
Note: This was made with old codex points, but its close enough:
U/M Captain
U/M Tac Squad (reroll shots), Flamer, HB, Rhino
U/M Tac Squad (reroll shots), Flamer, HB, Rhino
Kantor
Scout Squad (troop)
Sternguard x10, (scoring) drop pod
Vulkan
Tac Squad, Melta, M-Melta, drop pod (T/L tank killers)
Khan (with bike)
Bike Squad x8 (troops)
That runs about 1865 points, plenty left over to kit out special weapons on the U/M Capt and the sgts. Or switch the Captain for Calgar just to give a hard to kill HQ in the mix). It gives you 5 troops (6 scoring units that can combat squad into 11 scoring units) with each unit type gaining the special rules that maximize their weapons/wargear. Scoring Sternguard with special ammo to kill MCs. T/L meltas podding in to kill tanks on turn 1. Bikes to move in quick and tie up critical unikts (Tau Pathfinders...remove Markerlights from Tau synergy), and a bunch of rerolling bolters (with some flamers) to deal with horde units.
Of course I would expect to see 4 different colors of Space Marine on the board.
you will likely be limited to 1 allied detachment. No way to get 4 HQs in 1 force org unless you are SW.
At 2000pts, if the rumor is true, you can have a different CT for every Primary Detachment, and you are already allowed one allied detachment for each Primary one.
So, you would be able to do that, yes.
EDIT: Even though that list is kind of garbage. Relying on one squad of Meltas to deal with armor? >.> Not to mention the MM would be snapfiring out of the pod.
d-usa wrote: What I would love to have is a basic "HQ" box that has shoulder pads and weapons to make Chaplains or Librarians, instead of the static plastic guys we seem to be getting.
Me too!
We've been waiting for that kit ever since they released the plastic SM captain!
d-usa wrote: What I would love to have is a basic "HQ" box that has shoulder pads and weapons to make Chaplains or Librarians, instead of the static plastic guys we seem to be getting.
Me too!
We've been waiting for that kit ever since they released the plastic SM captain!
And when I first heard "plastic Chaplain" and "plastic Librarian" I was so very happy.
Until I saw pictures that looked very monopose...
And they could really make a killing of this. They don't even have to release a whole kit for it.
It really wouldn't take that much to put on a sprue:
A hand holding a Crozius, a couple hands holding force weapons, a skull helm, a robed head, a bald head, a Rosarius, A skull shoulder pad, a librarian shoulder pad.
They could charge $15 for that thing and call it an HQ upgrade kit and make it direct only, and people would still buy it.
These rumors are really making me want to start a Blood Ravens army. I always considered SM to be one of my least favorite armies too. If only I had less in my painting cue! I actually hope Bretonnia and SoB are still a long way off since I don't have the time for all the inevitable purchases I would make.
orkybenji wrote: These rumors are really making me want to start a Blood Ravens army. I always considered SM to be one of my least favorite armies too. If only I had less in my painting cue! I actually hope Bretonnia and SoB are still a long way off since I don't have the time for all the inevitable purchases I would make.
If Sisters are lucky they'll see an update at the back half of 2014. It might be later than that. So you're likely safe on that side at least. I haven't heard anything about Bretonnia yet.
d-usa wrote: They could charge $15 for that thing and call it an HQ upgrade kit and make it direct only, and people would still buy it.
"Still" buy it at $15? Yeah considering that a commander is $22.50 I'm pretty sure people might buy a kit that costs 2/3 as much and makes 2x as many types of unit.
d-usa wrote: They could charge $15 for that thing and call it an HQ upgrade kit and make it direct only, and people would still buy it.
"Still" buy it at $15? Yeah considering that a commander is $22.50 I'm pretty sure people might buy a kit that costs 2/3 as much and makes 2x as many types of unit.
Maybe, considering he only suggested that it come with Head/Weapon/Shoulder Pad options, not the legs/chest/arms/ranged weapons options.
d-usa wrote: They could charge $15 for that thing and call it an HQ upgrade kit and make it direct only, and people would still buy it.
"Still" buy it at $15? Yeah considering that a commander is $22.50 I'm pretty sure people might buy a kit that costs 2/3 as much and makes 2x as many types of unit.
Maybe, considering he only suggested that it come with Head/Weapon/Shoulder Pad options, not the legs/chest/arms/ranged weapons options.
Yup, gotta make sure you still have to buy another kit to actually use the bits. It is GW after all
davou wrote: Just a thought, but what if suppliment White Scars does NOT allow bike troops, but instead allows you force the game to be scouring for X points?
I think there are words missing in the above sentence, it makes no sense.
What's with the complaints that Vanilla will get to ally with themselves? They're the third Codex to be given the option of doing so, but I guess it's unfair because it's Marines and they're the Devil, right?
Crazyterran wrote:At 2000pts, if the rumor is true, you can have a different CT for every Primary Detachment, and you are already allowed one allied detachment for each Primary one.
I've only seen that wishlisted, not rumored. Even if that were to be the case, which I HIGHLY doubt, who says each primary detachment could suddenly also have a different chapter as an ally? No. Just no. They'll allow different chapter tactics as an ally, but anything beyond that would be silly.
Crimson wrote:Weren't 40K Radio guys supposed to answer some more questions? What happened to that, did GW send their hitmen after them?
They were supposed to, yeah, but they indeed went awfully silent.
dkellyj wrote: A lot of this would depend on the wording of the Chapter Tactics. Does Kantor make SternGuard "Scoring" or "Troops".
If the later...then you can bring a Chapter Master and his "special guys." If the former you can play games like this.
Note: This was made with old codex points, but its close enough:
U/M Captain
U/M Tac Squad (reroll shots), Flamer, HB, Rhino
U/M Tac Squad (reroll shots), Flamer, HB, Rhino
Kantor
Scout Squad (troop)
Sternguard x10, (scoring) drop pod
Vulkan
Tac Squad, Melta, M-Melta, drop pod (T/L tank killers)
Khan (with bike)
Bike Squad x8 (troops)
That runs about 1865 points, plenty left over to kit out special weapons on the U/M Capt and the sgts. Or switch the Captain for Calgar just to give a hard to kill HQ in the mix). It gives you 5 troops (6 scoring units that can combat squad into 11 scoring units) with each unit type gaining the special rules that maximize their weapons/wargear. Scoring Sternguard with special ammo to kill MCs. T/L meltas podding in to kill tanks on turn 1. Bikes to move in quick and tie up critical unikts (Tau Pathfinders...remove Markerlights from Tau synergy), and a bunch of rerolling bolters (with some flamers) to deal with horde units.
Of course I would expect to see 4 different colors of Space Marine on the board.
you will likely be limited to 1 allied detachment. No way to get 4 HQs in 1 force org unless you are SW.
At 2000pts, if the rumor is true, you can have a different CT for every Primary Detachment, and you are already allowed one allied detachment for each Primary one.
So, you would be able to do that, yes.
EDIT: Even though that list is kind of garbage. Relying on one squad of Meltas to deal with armor? >.> Not to mention the MM would be snapfiring out of the pod.
Problem is IIRC, in order to get a second allied detachment even at 2kpts+, you still need to actually have a second primary detachment first. So you will need at least 2HQs and 4 Troops from your primary before taking your second allies.
Also, I didn't see any rumour saying each Primary could have different Chapter Tactics. Pretty sure people were just randomly wishlisting that is all.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: What's with the complaints that Vanilla will get to ally with themselves? They're the third Codex to be given the option of doing so, but I guess it's unfair because it's Marines and they're the Devil, right?
No one should be getting it, but it's egregious with C:SM because you're not taking Codex + Supplement (that has restrictions), you're taking Codex (w/ bonus rules) + Codex (w/ other bonus rules).
Every primary army + allies comes with bonus rules for the main army and bonus rules for the secondary army. CT will only apply to their own detachment. So what exactly is egregious about Ultras allying with Salamanders? The fact that you don't have to buy a second codex?
BTW I really love this guy. The cables look like they will break easily, and im not sure i can paint the skin the right color but dam he is cool
Hehe, how do these guys assault things like narrow tunnel systems? Would like to see that fit in without scraping of that nice vehicle radar from his back
He's a Devastator captain. If he leading an assault, he is doing something wrong. And in a tunnel, he's the guy setting up at a large junction just waiting for the enemy to come along all bunched up in narrow tunnels for his heavy weapon troops to wipe out.
wtwlf123 wrote: Every primary army + allies comes with bonus rules for the main army and bonus rules for the secondary army. CT will only apply to their own detachment. So what exactly is egregious about Ultras allying with Salamanders? The fact that you don't have to buy a second codex?
It's just a copout to getting 4 Elite, 4 Fast Attack, or 4 Heavy Support within a single codex. If limiting those force org slots to 3 was a good idea in the first place, why do some get to ignore the limit?
BTW I really love this guy. The cables look like they will break easily, and im not sure i can paint the skin the right color but dam he is cool
Hehe, how do these guys assault things like narrow tunnel systems? Would like to see that fit in without scraping of that nice vehicle radar from his back
He's a Devastator captain. If he leading an assault, he is doing something wrong. And in a tunnel, he's the guy setting up at a large junction just waiting for the enemy to come along all bunched up in narrow tunnels for his heavy weapon troops to wipe out.
So what are all the other characters toting gigantic useless things like speakers, wings, naked babies etc on their heads doing? Are all standing there cheering up the ones doing the actual assault?
BTW I really love this guy. The cables look like they will break easily, and im not sure i can paint the skin the right color but dam he is cool
Hehe, how do these guys assault things like narrow tunnel systems? Would like to see that fit in without scraping of that nice vehicle radar from his back
He's a Devastator captain. If he leading an assault, he is doing something wrong. And in a tunnel, he's the guy setting up at a large junction just waiting for the enemy to come along all bunched up in narrow tunnels for his heavy weapon troops to wipe out.
So what are all the other characters toting gigantic useless things like speakers, wings, naked babies etc on their heads doing? Are all standing there cheering up the ones doing the actual assault?
One manages relics and artifacts while the other manages logistics. Or... something like that. You can get their fluff from the website. The one with the jetpack is the actual assault captain, though.
...this is 40k you're talkng about. If you want to complain about the lack of realism please take it somewhere else rather than trying to spoil other people's hobby.
wtwlf123 wrote: Every primary army + allies comes with bonus rules for the main army and bonus rules for the secondary army. CT will only apply to their own detachment. So what exactly is egregious about Ultras allying with Salamanders? The fact that you don't have to buy a second codex?
It's just a copout to getting 4 Elite, 4 Fast Attack, or 4 Heavy Support within a single codex. If limiting those force org slots to 3 was a good idea in the first place, why do some get to ignore the limit?
using allies should reduce your primary to 2 2 2 while pure would remain 3 3 3 or something
Guys, captains aren't going to be doing any assaulting or going into tunnels. Their job is to send others to do those things. It's been like that with every army in history. (with a few rare exceptions)
MWHistorian wrote: Guys, captains aren't going to be doing any assaulting or going into tunnels. Their job is to send others to do those things. It's been like that with every army in history. (with a few rare exceptions)
In history, sure. In the grim darkness of the future, captains lead the way into dark places, and challenge the biggest, nastiest things they find there to glorious single combat.
So I take it from what I have been reading [There is no way for a Librarain to get an Invunrable save other than one Artifact or Terminator Armor] that the Librarain can't Take a Storm Shield. If so that sucks.
Pyriel- wrote: So what are all the other characters toting gigantic useless things like speakers, wings, naked babies etc on their heads doing? Are all standing there cheering up the ones doing the actual assault?
Those flimsy finecast extensions break off the first time you transport them. Problem solved
Crazyterran wrote:At 2000pts, if the rumor is true, you can have a different CT for every Primary Detachment, and you are already allowed one allied detachment for each Primary one.
I've only seen that wishlisted, not rumored. Even if that were to be the case, which I HIGHLY doubt, who says each primary detachment could suddenly also have a different chapter as an ally? No. Just no. They'll allow different chapter tactics as an ally, but anything beyond that would be silly.
Crimson wrote:Weren't 40K Radio guys supposed to answer some more questions? What happened to that, did GW send their hitmen after them?
They were supposed to, yeah, but they indeed went awfully silent.
They realised that if they kept answering questions on Facebook, they wouldn't be able to hold their knowledge over people to force them to listen to their podcast, so they won't speak again until they upload that around the 1st. Hey, it's Romeo, what were you expecting?
Leth wrote: I like to give my librarians a 2+ invulnerable save that works everywhere but in challenges.
Its called a unit of meatshields.
The fact that you can take any number of look out sir saves as you want is a little broken, but man is it nice sometimes
And truly, you are right. Just pop him in a unit for the LOS saves, if you are worried about the meatshields not saving you from daemons eating your soul when you get distracted...you shouldnt have been a damned dirty witch in the first place.
xruslanx wrote: ...this is 40k you're talkng about. If you want to complain about the lack of realism please take it somewhere else rather than trying to spoil other people's hobby.
The guy making demands of how other people on how they interpret the universe on a discussion forum wants to accuse others of spoiling peoples' hobby?
BTW I really love this guy. The cables look like they will break easily, and im not sure i can paint the skin the right color but dam he is cool
Hehe, how do these guys assault things like narrow tunnel systems? Would like to see that fit in without scraping of that nice vehicle radar from his back
He's a Devastator captain. If he leading an assault, he is doing something wrong. And in a tunnel, he's the guy setting up at a large junction just waiting for the enemy to come along all bunched up in narrow tunnels for his heavy weapon troops to wipe out.
So what are all the other characters toting gigantic useless things like speakers, wings, naked babies etc on their heads doing? Are all standing there cheering up the ones doing the actual assault?
The one is cheering the rest on, yes. The other has an accountability sheet and is keeping track of what marines are in what tunnels after they hand over their little velcro nametags and hanging out near the thunderhawk.
Yodhrin wrote: They realised that if they kept answering questions on Facebook, they wouldn't be able to hold their knowledge over people to force them to listen to their podcast, so they won't speak again until they upload that around the 1st. Hey, it's Romeo, what were you expecting?
Entitlement much (why am I even asking)?
They have the Codex, it's their choice how to use it. I think whoever leaked it to 40k Radio made a poor call if he wanted to get it out to the whole community, but what can you do.
Yodhrin wrote: They realised that if they kept answering questions on Facebook, they wouldn't be able to hold their knowledge over people to force them to listen to their podcast, so they won't speak again until they upload that around the 1st. Hey, it's Romeo, what were you expecting?
Entitlement much (why am I even asking)?
They have the Codex, it's their choice how to use it. I think whoever leaked it to 40k Radio made a poor call if he wanted to get it out to the whole community, but what can you do.
Or they leaked it to someone who would give them a good deal of money Or more likely, GW leaked it to them and said "You can spill this this and this, but only then then and then.
Pyriel- wrote: So what are all the other characters toting gigantic useless things like speakers, wings, naked babies etc on their heads doing? Are all standing there cheering up the ones doing the actual assault?
Those flimsy finecast extensions break off the first time you transport them. Problem solved
BTW I really love this guy. The cables look like they will break easily, and im not sure i can paint the skin the right color but dam he is cool
Hehe, how do these guys assault things like narrow tunnel systems? Would like to see that fit in without scraping of that nice vehicle radar from his back
He's a Devastator captain. If he leading an assault, he is doing something wrong. And in a tunnel, he's the guy setting up at a large junction just waiting for the enemy to come along all bunched up in narrow tunnels for his heavy weapon troops to wipe out.
So what are all the other characters toting gigantic useless things like speakers, wings, naked babies etc on their heads doing? Are all standing there cheering up the ones doing the actual assault?
The one is cheering the rest on, yes. The other has an accountability sheet and is keeping track of what marines are in what tunnels after they hand over their little velcro nametags and hanging out near the thunderhawk.
the huge speakers are used to shout at the enemy. The SM know no fear, the enemy might though.
One manages relics and artifacts while the other manages logistics. Or... something like that. You can get their fluff from the website. The one with the jetpack is the actual assault captain, though.
Ah so for every 3 officers there is one actually doing combat instead of guarding a relic or a radar dish or loud speakers, check.
...you do realize I am making jokes right?
...this is 40k you're talkng about. If you want to complain about the lack of realism please take it somewhere else rather than trying to spoil other people's hobby.
Try not to take this hobby so seriously. I´m just joking and making some fun, if that is enough to spoil your hobby then I have not much else to add.
In history, sure. In the grim darkness of the future, captains lead the way into dark places, and challenge the biggest, nastiest things they find there to glorious single combat.
Well you know, that is if they can actually make the assault through those thorny shrubberies with all the spikes on their armour or through that human sized tunnel with the gigantic radar dish strapped on their head
Pyriel- wrote: So what are all the other characters toting gigantic useless things like speakers, wings, naked babies etc on their heads doing? Are all standing there cheering up the ones doing the actual assault?
Those flimsy finecast extensions break off the first time you transport them. Problem solved
That's the first comment that actually made me bark laugh aloud in a very long time. Pity I spread my cup of coffee over 1m2 when i did so.....
wtwlf123 wrote: Every primary army + allies comes with bonus rules for the main army and bonus rules for the secondary army. CT will only apply to their own detachment. So what exactly is egregious about Ultras allying with Salamanders? The fact that you don't have to buy a second codex?
It's just a copout to getting 4 Elite, 4 Fast Attack, or 4 Heavy Support within a single codex. If limiting those force org slots to 3 was a good idea in the first place, why do some get to ignore the limit?
Because it comes with an ally tax. It's no different than allying any other different armies together. Any army allied with another army gets to have 4 FA slots, or 4 HS slots.
Sasa0mg wrote: Sorry for not looking back to read all 132 pages xD but I have to ask, are there any dates on the codex re-do / new releases at all yet?
It's on the front page: September.
And that means the first week of september.
The thing with allying for more slots is that unless the slot you want is HQ or Troops, you've got to pay a tax on those, since you have to take those. Even factoring the drop in prices, the cheapest you can pull that off for is likely 135 (65 Libby, 70 Tac squad), and that's if you want two completely naked units that aren't too sturdy.
At lower point levels, that's a pretty serious tax to get one more of something into the force, and by the time the HQ+Troops tax is less significant, you're probably already at 2K and technically have access to an entire other FOC if you so choose.
Now, admittedly, allying for the HQ and troops will likely happen a bit, I personally would have no problem allying solely for Tigurius and either another drop pod melta tactical squad or a razorback tactical squad, but I'm not doing it to get 4 of anything outside of that.
I do wish Chaos could pull something like this allying within the codex too, haha. I want two squads of Nurgle bikers as escorts for my two bike HQs, and two Hellturkeys, haha.
as everyone says, 4 heldrakes are possible. I still think that 2 is most effective and 1 is most common and changes the meta the most.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DogofWar1 wrote: The thing with allying for more slots is that unless the slot you want is HQ or Troops, you've got to pay a tax on those, since you have to take those. Even factoring the drop in prices, the cheapest you can pull that off for is likely 135 (65 Libby, 70 Tac squad), and that's if you want two completely naked units that aren't too sturdy.
At lower point levels, that's a pretty serious tax to get one more of something into the force, and by the time the HQ+Troops tax is less significant, you're probably already at 2K and technically have access to an entire other FOC if you so choose.
Now, admittedly, allying for the HQ and troops will likely happen a bit, I personally would have no problem allying solely for Tigurius and either another drop pod melta tactical squad or a razorback tactical squad, but I'm not doing it to get 4 of anything outside of that.
.
at 1850 though 3 troops and 2 HQs isnt out of the ordinary.
what will be strange though, if ultras can ally in more ultras
are they still allies. can they not use each others transports?
I do wish Chaos could pull something like this allying within the codex too, haha. I want two squads of Nurgle bikers as escorts for my two bike HQs, and two Hellturkeys, haha.
That is a good point. 4 helturkeys would be awful, but CSM with 4 fast attack choices IS scary
Think about
Huron(or EW Daemon Prince)
Nurgle Bike Lord with Nurgle Bikers
Khorne Jugger Lord with Spawn
2 heldrakes
4HS to go around
a 50 point squad of cultists in the BL detachment isnt really much of a tax.
My concern then would be HQ and troops I'd need to bring to shove that into there.
Which again, goes back to the point that allying regular SM chapters just for 4 slots might not be as simple as it sounds at first look, though maybe with cultists it's not that bad, especially if the Black Legion HQs are solid. I was running a Khorne biker and a Nurgle biker, so I'm not sure how that would have to change with the BLHQs.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Jeez, first the PS4, now Space Marines, and Nids apparently come right after! Looks like I might have to file for bankruptcy by the end of the year...
Try getting on the Kickstarter craze. That's when you start to consider selling blood to help pay rent.
Man... that new Tactical Squad looks very blah for $40. Have to say they are taking a step backwards with them. Not crazy about the single old school Beakie either. I don't mind some relic parts incorporated with the new stuff, but that guy looks like he just stepped out of a time machine.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: It's the reason why Space Marines have had the edge over Chaos for so long.
The ability to move through foliage without getting your horns caught on long hanging branches.
Loyalist advantage is that they have numerous well rounded choices in their codex that are all pretty good.
CSM get 1-2 extremely powerful/OP things and a bunch of crap.
GW wants to sell a lot of loyalist marines of all types and a ton of heldrakes but no mutialtors
Apparently the humor ran straight into the language barrier.
I’m sure he understood your jokes just fine. The problem here is us CSM players being stuck in a very deep and sorrowful depression, caused by the total blandness of our CSM codex.
The loyalist got all the good stuff and those of us, who have been forsaken, will see the galaxy burning for it..
KTG17 wrote: Man... that new Tactical Squad looks very blah for $40. Have to say they are taking a step backwards with them. Not crazy about the single old school Beakie either. I don't mind some relic parts incorporated with the new stuff, but that guy looks like he just stepped out of a time machine.
I want to see a Beakie Chaplin with a death mask. That would be a sight
Can someone please post a consolidated list of all the rumors please because for the past ten pages all Im getting are tidbits I would greatly appreciate it.
KTG17 wrote: Man... that new Tactical Squad looks very blah for $40. Have to say they are taking a step backwards with them. Not crazy about the single old school Beakie either. I don't mind some relic parts incorporated with the new stuff, but that guy looks like he just stepped out of a time machine.
I want to see a Beakie Chaplin with a death mask. That would be a sight
KTG17 wrote: Man... that new Tactical Squad looks very blah for $40. Have to say they are taking a step backwards with them. Not crazy about the single old school Beakie either. I don't mind some relic parts incorporated with the new stuff, but that guy looks like he just stepped out of a time machine.
Do we know if they will still be 10 per box or if gw is aiming at breaking the Avengers price hike record of 100%?
Veteran Sergeant wrote: It's the reason why Space Marines have had the edge over Chaos for so long.
The ability to move through foliage without getting your horns caught on long hanging branches.
Loyalist advantage is that they have numerous well rounded choices in their codex that are all pretty good.
CSM get 1-2 extremely powerful/OP things and a bunch of crap.
GW wants to sell a lot of loyalist marines of all types and a ton of heldrakes but no mutialtors
Apparently the humor ran straight into the language barrier.
I’m sure he understood your jokes just fine. The problem here is us CSM players being stuck in a very deep and sorrowful depression, caused by the total blandness of our CSM codex.
The loyalist got all the good stuff and those of us, who have been forsaken, will see the galaxy burning for it..
It doesn't change the fact that this is a thread about Codex: Space Marines, not Codex: Chaos Space Marines, so take it somewhere else.
Also, it would be nice if those of you dissatisfied stopped lumping all CSM players together or using the silent majority card, because not everyone is so unhappy with it, particularly because some of us aren't hung up on the past, particularly about not getting rules that never actually existed (e.g. complaining about not being able to have all jump Night Lords, something that was never possible).
If you are dissatisfied with C: CSM, instead of hi-jacking unrelated threads to whine, do something productive, like write to GW with feedback, 'cause I'm sure ye must have better things to do with yer lives.
KTG17 wrote: Man... that new Tactical Squad looks very blah for $40. Have to say they are taking a step backwards with them. Not crazy about the single old school Beakie either. I don't mind some relic parts incorporated with the new stuff, but that guy looks like he just stepped out of a time machine.
I want to see a Beakie Chaplin with a death mask. That would be a sight
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Jeez, first the PS4, now Space Marines, and Nids apparently come right after! Looks like I might have to file for bankruptcy by the end of the year...
Try getting on the Kickstarter craze. That's when you start to consider selling blood to help pay rent.
Kickstarter is like Gambling on the Roulette wheel at a Casino against the house, where there is a 50% chance the Wheel won't even get spun. The Project failure rate is truly impressive and actually mirrors real business failure rates well....
How is that not close enough? It's a bird skull death mask thingy.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: It doesn't change the fact that this is a thread about Codex: Space Marines, not Codex: Chaos Space Marines, so take it somewhere else.
Also, it would be nice if those of you dissatisfied stopped lumping all CSM players together or using the silent majority card, because not everyone is so unhappy with it, particularly because some of us aren't hung up on the past, particularly about not getting rules that never actually existed (e.g. complaining about not being able to have all jump Night Lords, something that was never possible).
If you are dissatisfied with C: CSM, instead of hi-jacking unrelated threads to whine, do something productive, like write to GW with feedback, 'cause I'm sure ye must have better things to do with yer lives.
Yodhrin wrote: They realised that if they kept answering questions on Facebook, they wouldn't be able to hold their knowledge over people to force them to listen to their podcast, so they won't speak again until they upload that around the 1st. Hey, it's Romeo, what were you expecting?
Entitlement much (why am I even asking)?
They have the Codex, it's their choice how to use it. I think whoever leaked it to 40k Radio made a poor call if he wanted to get it out to the whole community, but what can you do.
Right, it's official; "entitlement" has joined "irregardless" and "could care less" on my list of Words and Phrases That Irritate the Piss Out of Me Because of Continual Misuse/Nonexistence. Expressing a negative opinion of the way something is being done, and speculating as to why it is being done that way, in no way implies they do not have the right to do it that way.
mwnciboo wrote: Kickstarter is like Gambling on the Roulette wheel at a Casino against the house, where there is a 50% chance the Wheel won't even get spun. The Project failure rate is truly impressive and actually mirrors real business failure rates well....
The majority of the miniatures games campaigns that show up on Dakka actually get funded and produce products. Gates of Antares and Thon were the two major exceptions to this in not getting funded at all, and Kings of War in producing lackluster miniatures. Oh, and Avatars of War for taking ages to produce anything.
KTG17 wrote: Man... that new Tactical Squad looks very blah for $40. Have to say they are taking a step backwards with them. Not crazy about the single old school Beakie either. I don't mind some relic parts incorporated with the new stuff, but that guy looks like he just stepped out of a time machine.
They are a nice improvement on the current box set and any of the recent starter set squads. Why do you consider them a step backwards?
Not sure what you don't like about the beakie. Is that not the classic MKVI armor?
If the rumors are correct, there should be more weapons on the frames. That plus the new poses will complement the existing boxed set so folks starting new marine armies should pick up a few of the current sets now before the new set is released.
I don't plan on using the new bare heads but they look fine.
I'm really looking forward to seeing how the sprues for the sternguard and tac squad shakes out. If I can get enough combi-weapons to turn the sterns into my sgts and enough special weapons out of the tac box to have option for all my tac squads, I'll be very very happy with these releases. Even if the options end up disappointing me, the minis look good and I'll definitely be adding some to my collection.
Right, it's official; "entitlement" has joined "irregardless" and "could care less" on my list of Words and Phrases That Irritate the Piss Out of Me Because of Continual Misuse/Nonexistence.
I'd add "definately" to that list, I see it on this forum and elsewhere all the time now. Definitely has the root word "finite" in it as do definite, indefinite, infinite, infinity, etc. There's no letter "a" in any of that. The middle syllable is a soft "i", not a "schwa" sound, so where's the problem?
Someone said the new Tactical Squad looks bland for $40. Really? It's the same great box set most Space Marine collectors have liked and enjoyed for years with a few new bits added and thankfully only a slight price hike from $37.25 to $40.00 US. Now about that Dire Avenger price increase earlier this year...
Right, it's official; "entitlement" has joined "irregardless" and "could care less" on my list of Words and Phrases That Irritate the Piss Out of Me Because of Continual Misuse/Nonexistence.
I'd add "definately" to that list, I see it on this forum and elsewhere all the time now. Definitely has the root word "finite" in it as do definite, indefinite, infinite, infinity, etc. There's no letter "a" in any of that. The middle syllable is a soft "i", not a "schwa" sound, so where's the problem.
How about "then" which the internet seems to think means "than". Why? Just why?
KTG17 wrote: Man... that new Tactical Squad looks very blah for $40. Have to say they are taking a step backwards with them. Not crazy about the single old school Beakie either. I don't mind some relic parts incorporated with the new stuff, but that guy looks like he just stepped out of a time machine.
How are they a step backward? They look like the existing Marines with some cooler new details, but without the metric buttload of superfluous details that every other model gets these days.
Q: Is it true that what you guys have is an early playtest material, not the actual printed C:SM codex?
A: I have the final print copy.
Q: Are their any new Special Characters?
A: No.
Q: Is honour guard still 3-10 models, or only available as 5 models similar to command squads or BA honour guard?
A: 3-10
Q: Is relic blade still S+2 AP3 two-handed?
A: Yes
Q: Do Legion of the Damned get Soulblaze like in Apoc?
A: No
Q: Can the LotD still Deep Strike?
A: Yes
Q: Does the LotD still have Slow and Purposeful?
A: Yes
Q: Can the LotD be joined by characters?
A: No
Q: Does Cassius have the Zealot rule?
A: Yes
Q: Do the AA tanks have an alternate fire mode that lets them shoot at ground targets?
A: No, only one firing mode
Q: Can child chapters take the SCs of their parent chapters?
A: No (those are unique to their chapter)
Q: Can Pedro and Lysander be in the same army without using allies?
A: No (CF is one chapter, IF is another)
Q: Are Techmarines slotless HQs like the DA book?
A: Yes
Q: Can Captains still take Artificer Armor?
A: Yes
Q: Do Sternguard combi-weapons still cost 5 points?
A: No, they're 10 points
Q: Does Helbrecht have any other special rules besides the once a game rule that gives fleet/hatred?
A: No
Q: What is the cost of a five man scout squad with a Vet Sergeant?
A: 65 Points
Q: Any changes on Kantor's rules?
A: Basically the same (will be covered on show)
Q: Do bikes and centurions get combat squads rule?
A: Bikes yes, Centurions no.
Q: Is there is any vehicle able to get grav weapons?
A: No
Q: Are neophytes of crusade squad an independent squad that can join the main unit as it was rumoured, or crusade squads are a full unit option?
A: No, like last BT Dex.
Q: Is there option for crusade squads of getting two special weapons?
A: No.
Q: If one crusader squads takes a CLR as transport, it has any point cost reduction?
A: I don't have the BT Dex to check.
Q: Have black templars access to biker scouts?
A: Yes. They have access to everything except Librarians.
Q: Marneus Calgar "God of War" rule is still in there? Has it been replaced by the 3 warlord traits rule?
A: It's different and cool (will be covered on the show).
Q: How many points cost a grav-gun as special weapon on a tac squad?
A: 15 points.
Q: How many points are the lascannon and missle launcher upgrades on the Centurion Devastators?
A: Lascannon is 10, Missile is 10
Q: How much do Relic Blades Cost?
A: Chapter Master and Captain get it for 25 points.
Q: Does the codex include a Power Field Generator (DA Wargear that generates a 4++ for a unit)?
A: No
Q: Can Tactical Marines take a Special Weapon at 5 models?
A: A Squad of 5 can have a special weapon or heavy weapon.
Q: Can Calgar still take up to 3 units of Honor Guard?
A: Yes
Q: Additionally, does his still have the rule that lets him choose to pass or fail morale checks at will?
A: Yes (more in the show)
Q: Are Black Templar Characters required and/or accept challenges?
A: Not required, but they will be sick in challenges
Q: Bikes squads that can be made troops, a minimum of 5 models or 5 models max? there is some conflicting sounding information so people just want to confirm.
A: At least 5 (max 9 with Attack Bike) and if your Captain or Chapter Master is on a bike you make take them as troops.
Q: So Chapter Masters on bikes can unlock bike squads of at least 5 models as troops too?
A: Yes.
Q: Do LotD still have their 3++ save?
A: Yes
Q: Can the Bikers take the grav gun options?
A: Yes
Q: Can Scout Squads take locator beacons or teleport homes?
A: Teleport Homers.
Q: Does Shrike have any other rules?
A: No.
Q: Do Chapter Tactics cost anything?
A: No.
Q: The Stalker, does it have 4 shots total that it can split fire with or does each gun fire 4 shots each?
A: 4 shots each (this will be covered on the show)
Q: Do any of the SC's have Stubborn or Fearless?
A: No
Q: Does the Emperor's Champion take up an HQ slot?
A: Yes
Q: Does Sicarius still re-roll his Sieze Initiative attempts?
A: No
Q: Any change to Razorbacks?
A: I believe they went up 5 points
Q: Does the Ultramarines Tactical Chapter Tactic affect Sternguard special ammo?
A: I believe so.
Q: Also, are bike upgrades for Space Marine Captains cheaper?
A: I think the upgrade stayed the same.
Q: Are normal bikes cheaper?
A: Yes
Q: Are all these answers from an early rendition or playtest and subject to change? Or are these concrete answers from a full codex?
A: The book I have looks like the final. If this is a fake then a ton of effort has gone into this.
KTG17 wrote: Man... that new Tactical Squad looks very blah for $40. Have to say they are taking a step backwards with them. Not crazy about the single old school Beakie either. I don't mind some relic parts incorporated with the new stuff, but that guy looks like he just stepped out of a time machine.
I'll take a $2.50 price hit in return for the added grav guns, proper Mk VIII with gorget and armored cables, much better variety of parts from various armor marks, and little touches like a shouldered bolter, a reloading bolter, and potentially a decent variety of options for the sergeant. And a Missile launcher with a proper backpack loader.
It's not as outright impressive as a new kit as the Vanguard and especially Sternguard vets, but compared to the previous $37.50 Tac squad box, sculpted in 1998 and recut in 2004, it is light years ahead.
And being a new kit means mold lines ought to be cut way back- the Tac marine mold is getting old.
Jeez, talk about limiting what SC's you can take. So if i want Kantor i HAVE to use crimson fists? Not even imperial fists? And diy chapters get nada SC's?
Nosebiter wrote: Jeez, talk about limiting what SC's you can take. So if i want Kantor i HAVE to use crimson fists? Not even imperial fists? And diy chapters get nada SC's?
EDIT: Nevermind... makes sense though, I'm fine with it (I use both CF and IF).
Nosebiter wrote: Jeez, talk about limiting what SC's you can take. So if i want Kantor i HAVE to use crimson fists? Not even imperial fists? And diy chapters get nada SC's?
No, I think its the first founding chapters you choose from (might be wrong)... so Pedro would be IF... or am I the one who's off?
It looks like you can't use SCs who don't explicitly belong to your chapter...though I AM asking about count-as to see if there is any wiggle room on that.
Obviously you can counts-as. Not being able to counts-as the SCs would be insane and only jerks would try to enforce such a rule. I've noticed some confusing wording in some of 40K radio's answers, and I don't know what they actually meant by this, but I'm positive it'll be cleared up.
Nosebiter wrote: Jeez, talk about limiting what SC's you can take. So if i want Kantor i HAVE to use crimson fists? Not even imperial fists? And diy chapters get nada SC's?
No, I think its the first founding chapters you choose from (might be wrong)... so Pedro would be IF... or am I the one who's off?
It looks like you can't use SCs who don't explicitly belong to your chapter...though I AM asking about count-as to see if there is any wiggle room on that.
It means you can only use characters that match the chapter trait, and apparently Pedro has Chapter Trait: Crimson Fists (see Imperial Fists trait for rules)
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Damn, so now sternguards with combi-weapons are now 2 points more, sucks...
Yeah, kind of annoying, but since I only ran 4-5 combi weapons in a full squad, I come out about even. People who ran 10 combis in a 10 man squad may be suffering a tad though. Especially now that you can fit Pedro in a pod with them anymore.
tomjoad wrote: Obviously you can counts-as. Not being able to counts-as the SCs would be insane and only jerks would try to enforce such a rule. I've noticed some confusing wording in some of 40K radio's answers, and I don't know what they actually meant by this, but I'm positive it'll be cleared up.
Homebrew count-as sure, I mean Count-As in other armies. Like a Count-As Vulkan in an Iron Hands army.
Nosebiter wrote: Jeez, talk about limiting what SC's you can take. So if i want Kantor i HAVE to use crimson fists? Not even imperial fists? And diy chapters get nada SC's?
No, I think its the first founding chapters you choose from (might be wrong)... so Pedro would be IF... or am I the one who's off?
It looks like you can't use SCs who don't explicitly belong to your chapter...though I AM asking about count-as to see if there is any wiggle room on that.
It means you can only use characters that match the chapter trait, and apparently Pedro has Chapter Trait: Crimson Fists (see Imperial Fists trait for rules)
Possibly. We might be stuck waiting until their 1 Sept show to know more.
tomjoad wrote: Obviously you can counts-as. Not being able to counts-as the SCs would be insane and only jerks would try to enforce such a rule. I've noticed some confusing wording in some of 40K radio's answers, and I don't know what they actually meant by this, but I'm positive it'll be cleared up.
Homebrew count-as sure, I mean Count-As in other armies. Like a Count-As Vulkan in an Iron Hands army.
Not being able to do that has been the rumor all week, so, no, Vulkan cannot go in an army with the IHCT rules according to current rumors.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Damn, so now sternguards with combi-weapons are now 2 points more, sucks...
Yeah, kind of annoying, but since I only ran 4-5 combi weapons in a full squad, I come out about even. People who ran 10 combis in a 10 man squad may be suffering a tad though. Especially now that you can fit Pedro in a pod with them anymore.
I think the difference will be now, instead of giving all of them combi-weapons, you'll only it to some ot them, say two or three for every 5 you take.
I hope when they say razorbacks went up 5 points they mean that the base cost went up 5 while upgrades went down 5, and not that the top possible cost went up 5 points.
I also wonder if drop pods will follow the costs found in DA, namely the deathwind launcher costs.
The bump in combi-weapon costs is annoying, I'd have liked it to stay 5 pts, but then again, I'll likely be playing CF (IF) mainly, which means tank hunter Devs, which means I need fewer of those combi-weapons for can opening, and can probably just run Sternguard naked.
Also, the fact that you can take a special weapon at 5 tacticals means I can do the 5 man, Meltagun + combi-melta in a drop pod thing. Between that and tank hunter devs I probably won't be putting many combi-weapons on my sternguard.
DogofWar1 wrote: I hope when they say razorbacks went up 5 points they mean that the base cost went up 5 while upgrades went down 5, and not that the top possible cost went up 5 points.
I also wonder if drop pods will follow the costs found in DA, namely the deathwind launcher costs.
I'm assuming its like the DA razor: the base cost is 5 points more but all the options are 10 pts less, so you're saving 5 points if you upgrade the heavy bolters.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Damn, so now sternguards with combi-weapons are now 2 points more, sucks...
Yeah, kind of annoying, but since I only ran 4-5 combi weapons in a full squad, I come out about even. People who ran 10 combis in a 10 man squad may be suffering a tad though. Especially now that you can fit Pedro in a pod with them anymore.
I think the difference will be now, instead of giving all of them combi-weapons, you'll only it to some ot them, say two or three for every 5 you take.
6 Combi-weapons in a 10 man squad works out to cost the same as 6 with combis in the old book. I think. Take more and they get more expensive.
tomjoad wrote: Obviously you can counts-as. Not being able to counts-as the SCs would be insane and only jerks would try to enforce such a rule. I've noticed some confusing wording in some of 40K radio's answers, and I don't know what they actually meant by this, but I'm positive it'll be cleared up.
Homebrew count-as sure, I mean Count-As in other armies. Like a Count-As Vulkan in an Iron Hands army.
Not being able to do that has been the rumor all week, so, no, Vulkan cannot go in an army with the IHCT rules according to current rumors.
Oh I know, that's why I asked for clarification. This book is really starting to feel like it's several different books who use the same basic equipment and troop selection but have different HQs.
More from 40k Radio:
Q: Is there any way to assault from vehicles besides assault ramps on land raiders and stormravens?
A: The Land Speeder Storm.
Q: How do Successor Chapters work exactly?
A: This will be covered on the 1 Sept show. The answer is really long and it's easier to just explain it verbally than type it out.
Q: If you have two different chapters that use the same chapter tactic, can they ally to each other?
A: This will als be covered on the 1 Sept show.
Q: How do Camo Cloaks work?
A: +1 to cover, or 6+ cover if not in cover
Q: Can any of the HQs get Camo Cloaks?
A: No
Q: Is there a way to get Eternal Warrior?
A: Yes (will be covered in show (Zion's Speculation: It's a Relic))
Q: Can any of the HQs buy any special rules?
A: No
Q: Do the HQs still have access to Hellfire rounds?
A: No
Q: Can we get a rundown on what Grav Weapons will cost?
A: Grav will be on the show.
Q: In 5th Edition you were encouraged to use SCs as "Count-As" special characters to give you some new/interesting combinations. Is there anything in the new book that allows you to do this?
A: You can no longer do that due to Chapter Tactics.
Q: Just to confirm, this means the Camo Cloaks and the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic stack, right? +2 to their cover saves for having both?
A: They do stack, but there is a caveat to the Raven Guard rule that will be covered on the show. All Chapter Tactics will be covered on the show.
Q: BT High Marshal (Chapter Master equivalent?) Helbrecht has no Orbital Bombardment, but BT can take a "regular" Chapter Master and get the OB from him?
A: Correct, Helbrecht does not have it, but regular Chapter Masters do.
Chapter tactics are sounding more complicated than they first appeared. Caveats on the Imperial Fists and Raven Guard ones, Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists not sharing the same trait for character purposes...
Glad my chapter is fully homebrew, as I have already converted a number of SCs, including Telion, Calgar, Pedro, and Dorn.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Chapter tactics are sounding more complicated than they first appeared. Caveats on the Imperial Fists and Raven Guard ones, Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists not sharing the same trait for character purposes...
Glad my chapter is fully homebrew, as I have already converted a number of SCs, including Telion, Calgar, Pedro, and Dorn.
I agree, the Chapter Tactics are more complicated than they first seemed, and to add to it, the wide restrictions on different SCs to specific armies means that the Vanilla book is the first to flat out restrict mixing SCs. It looks like there is a lot of work put in to prevent abuse of the new system.
Well then you have a problem. 1 progenitor chapter has to be chosen, so that rules out a few of the chars you list as they come from different chapters.....
Nosebiter wrote: Well then you have a problem. 1 progenitor chapter has to be chosen, so that rules out a few of the chars you list as they come from different chapters.....
True, if I wanted to play them all in one list. But while my homebrew chapter is an IH successor in my personal fluff, it is not listed in the codex as having a set progenitor, and thus should fall under "unknown progenitor" and I just pick.
Nosebiter wrote: Well then you have a problem. 1 progenitor chapter has to be chosen, so that rules out a few of the chars you list as they come from different chapters.....
True, if I wanted to play them all in one list. But while my homebrew chapter is an IH successor in my personal fluff, it is not listed in the codex as having a set progenitor, and thus should fall under "unknown progenitor" and I just pick.
Technically you'd be an IH Successor and use their rules then. I'm sure people would be reasonable about letting you be more flexible with it though.
ClockworkZion wrote: From 40k Radio:
Q: Can Pedro and Lysander be in the same army without using allies?
A: No (CF is one chapter, IF is another)
Strange, so ultras get 3 CT, 5 SC while each other Chapters gets 1CT and 0-1 SC I dont know how people are going to like this.
I mean an Iyanden supplement can take Eldrad
Black Legion can take Kharn
Q: How many points are the lascannon and missle launcher upgrades on the Centurion Devastators?
A: Lascannon is 10, Missile is 10
Centurian with Lascannon is cheaper than a T5 Oblitorator(who lacks ATSKNF, isnt twin linked) and comes with a hurricane bolter that can become a missile launcher and can get split fire and nightfighting. They might be good.
Q: Can the Bikers take the grav gun options?
A: Yes
3 shots at 24" sounds pretty good, compared to 1 plasma or no melta. Has the speed to chase down Riptides and Wraithknights, although the former can pie plate bikes
Q: The Stalker, does it have 4 shots total that it can split fire with or does each gun fire 4 shots each?
A: 4 shots each (this will be covered on the show)
That sounds really really good. 8 str7 shots for 70 points. Even if they just snap shot at ground targets, there are a lot of flyers and skimmers out there. Rerolling 1s or tankhunters just makes them better.
Q: To confirm then, successor chapters who use the same Chapter Tactics as their Parent Chapters can't use the SC of their parent chapter, even as a "Count-As"?
A: Can't use "Count-As" because those are specific to the parent chapter.
This likely applies to homebrew as well.
We also got this:
Q: Define caveat in terms of Chapters. What are the caveats? Will you go over every chapter?
A: You have not been given all the details of the CT. We're saving that for the show. We weill cover all the CT in detail.
So they've been holding out on us on some info that may make or break how these rules work.
Nosebiter wrote: Well then you have a problem. 1 progenitor chapter has to be chosen, so that rules out a few of the chars you list as they come from different chapters.....
True, if I wanted to play them all in one list. But while my homebrew chapter is an IH successor in my personal fluff, it is not listed in the codex as having a set progenitor, and thus should fall under "unknown progenitor" and I just pick.
Technically you'd be an IH Successor and use their rules then. I'm sure people would be reasonable about letting you be more flexible with it though.
Yeah, and it really is no different from codex hopping with the same models (well mostly, I go for wsywyg and have various chapter specific models painted up as Foehammers that I use when I am using the appropriate codex), just within the same book. I can see GW limiting characters to armies with a certain chapter tactic, but not limiting say ultramarines characters to only armies that are painted as ultramarines. That would hurt sales, I would think.
Q: To confirm then, successor chapters who use the same Chapter Tactics as their Parent Chapters can't use the SC of their parent chapter, even as a "Count-As"?
A: Can't use "Count-As" because those are specific to the parent chapter.
This likely applies to homebrew as well.
What Chapter are you running?
Ultramarines with Calgar.
They are green?
Yeah, this company of the Ultramarines painted their armor green to fight in a campain against Tyranids that seek out the color blue.
Unless there is a rule "Marius Calgar MUST be pained Blue" I dont think you can stop it.
Nosebiter wrote: Well then you have a problem. 1 progenitor chapter has to be chosen, so that rules out a few of the chars you list as they come from different chapters.....
True, if I wanted to play them all in one list. But while my homebrew chapter is an IH successor in my personal fluff, it is not listed in the codex as having a set progenitor, and thus should fall under "unknown progenitor" and I just pick.
Technically you'd be an IH Successor and use their rules then. I'm sure people would be reasonable about letting you be more flexible with it though.
How many people are really asking about the fluff to your chapter over the table? As got mentioned a ways back in this thread, as long as the other guy knows what CT rules you're using i doubt he cares what your proginator chapter is, same as you likely don't care what hive fleet he's using.
Q: To confirm then, successor chapters who use the same Chapter Tactics as their Parent Chapters can't use the SC of their parent chapter, even as a "Count-As"?
A: Can't use "Count-As" because those are specific to the parent chapter.
This likely applies to homebrew as well.
What Chapter are you running?
Ultramarines with Calgar.
They are green?
Yeah, this company of the Ultramarines painted their armor green to fight in a campain against Tyranids that seek out the color blue.
Unless there is a rule "Marius Calgar MUST be pained Blue" I dont think you can stop it.
Basically this. I can see GW limiting characters to certain chapter tactics, but limiting them based on the paint scheme is not only overly restrictive, especially compared to every other codex so far, but is both essentially unenforceable and would hurt sales of said special characters from anyone who runs a homebrew or successor.
Q: To confirm then, successor chapters who use the same Chapter Tactics as their Parent Chapters can't use the SC of their parent chapter, even as a "Count-As"?
A: Can't use "Count-As" because those are specific to the parent chapter.
This likely applies to homebrew as well.
What Chapter are you running?
Ultramarines with Calgar.
They are green?
Yeah, this company of the Ultramarines painted their armor green to fight in a campain against Tyranids that seek out the color blue.
Unless there is a rule "Marius Calgar MUST be pained Blue" I dont think you can stop it.
Well if they're Green Ultramarines with Sons of Medusa shoulder pads it might be an issue. I don't know. I'm trying to squeeze some info out of them on this but they're staying rather mum of the whole thing, likely so we actually bother to listen to their show.
I don't blame them for trying to entice us to listen. Having Romeo yammering in my headphones is not my idea of a pleasant afternoon...just this once, though...
Centurian with Lascannon is cheaper than a T5 Oblitorator(who lacks ATSKNF, isnt twin linked) and comes with a hurricane bolter that can become a missile launcher and can get split fire and nightfighting. They might be good.
Dunno, centurions dont get all other weapon options (also dont get forced to change) and no 5++ either.
tomjoad wrote: I don't blame them for trying to entice us to listen. Having Romeo yammering in my headphones is not my idea of a pleasant afternoon...just this once, though...
I'll be trying to transfer all they say into information I can put online so even if people don't listen it'll still be available.
Wait wait wait, so not only are SC's limited to a particular Chapter Tactics, but they are further limited specifically to the army named in that variation on the Tactics only? So for example, -only- Ultramarines can take Calgar or Telion, nobody else, not even named Ultramarine successors or homebrews that choose to use Chapter Tactics(Ultramarines)?
If so, sorry, but that's hilarious. Can't wait to see the people telling IH and others to suck it up RAEGing because their personal favourite Ultras successor doesn't get their not-SCs either
Q: Have Razorback weapon upgrades gotten cheaper, more expensive or stayed the same?
A: Some went down.
Q: How much do Relic Blades cost for Honor Guard?
A: 10 points.
Q: You mentioned that the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics have a caveat. Do all the Chapter Tactics have special caveats in how they can be used?
A: No, there are other rules for RG we didn't mention.
Q: Do these caveats require certain minumum requirements of units or wargear?
A: No.
Q: Are the Drop Pods priced like the DA ones (to include upgrades)?
A: Similiar.
Q: When making an army, are you required to take a chapter trait?
A: Yes.
Q: Is the Exorcists Chapter covered in the list of different Marine chapters/successors in the book?
A: Yes, there is a small blurb, but the do not have a parent chapter.
tomjoad wrote: Obviously you can counts-as. Not being able to counts-as the SCs would be insane and only jerks would try to enforce such a rule. I've noticed some confusing wording in some of 40K radio's answers, and I don't know what they actually meant by this, but I'm positive it'll be cleared up.
Homebrew count-as sure, I mean Count-As in other armies. Like a Count-As Vulkan in an Iron Hands army.
Not being able to do that has been the rumor all week, so, no, Vulkan cannot go in an army with the IHCT rules according to current rumors.
1. Buy official Vulkan model.
2. Paint black and silver.
3. Use as iron hands captain with relic blade, artificer armour and combi flamer.
4. Next week. Use same model AS Vulkan with salamander traits.
5. And the peasants rejoiced!
Q: Are any of these caveats negative things (like the old 4th edition flaws)?
A: No. The caveat is we have not revealed all the abilities for some chapters.
Q: Is there any clue you can give us on the nature of these caveats?
A: There are many layers to the CTs (no negatives).
Q: Did the points cost change for Power Weapons?
A: Generally the same, per units choices.
Q: Did the points cost change for Power Fists?
A: PF same.
Q: How much do Crusader Squads pay for Power Weapons?
A: 15.
Q: Can the Initiate in a Crusader Squad take a Power Fist?
A: Yes at 25 points.
Q: How does the limit for the extra power weapon in the Crusader squad work. Is it just 1 Initiate or is it 1 per X number of models in the squad?
A: 1 Initiate and then upgrade one to Sword Brother and you can get another.
I am taking any questions people have to get asked. Though if they've already been asked I'll just post the answers instead.
there's no way that the new codex will explicitly state that you need the right colour and insignia in order to take special charecters. That would be catastrophically stupid.
ClockworkZion wrote: I'll be trying to transfer all they say into information I can put online so even if people don't listen it'll still be available.
Thank you, thank you!
01/09 => Only one listener to the show and the rest will be waiting here Maybe that will teach them to withhold that information!
You can take purple Ultramarines led by Calgar but you can't have Vulcan and Tigurius leading an army with IH chapter tactics (for instance). This seems reasonable and not breaking homebrews, just cheesy combos
Q: Are any of these caveats negative things (like the old 4th edition flaws)?
A: No. The caveat is we have not revealed all the abilities for some chapters.
Q: Is there any clue you can give us on the nature of these caveats?
A: There are many layers to the CTs (no negatives).
Q: Did the points cost change for Power Weapons?
A: Generally the same, per units choices.
Q: Did the points cost change for Power Fists?
A: PF same.
Q: How much do Crusader Squads pay for Power Weapons?
A: 15.
Q: Can the Initiate in a Crusader Squad take a Power Fist?
A: Yes at 25 points.
Q: How does the limit for the extra power weapon in the Crusader squad work. Is it just 1 Initiate or is it 1 per X number of models in the squad?
A: 1 Initiate and then upgrade one to Sword Brother and you can get another.
I am taking any questions people have to get asked. Though if they've already been asked I'll just post the answers instead.
How much do Chapter Masters cost, and besides Orbital Bombardment, do they have any other rules/get to take any war-gear that captains don't?
RandyMcStab wrote: You can take purple Ultramarines led by Calgar but you can't have Vulcan and Tigurius leading an army with IH chapter tactics (for instance). This seems reasonable and not breaking homebrews, just cheesy combos
that's not what the source says. If explicitly states that successors may NOT use special charectors. Which is why i think it's nonsense, there'd be nothing to gain by essentially forcing paint schemes onto people.
Q: Are any of these caveats negative things (like the old 4th edition flaws)?
A: No. The caveat is we have not revealed all the abilities for some chapters.
I am taking any questions people have to get asked. Though if they've already been asked I'll just post the answers instead.
What are the unrevealed chapter tactics rules? That might serve to assuage a lot of the complaining about UM tactics.
Q: Are any of these caveats negative things (like the old 4th edition flaws)?
A: No. The caveat is we have not revealed all the abilities for some chapters.
I am taking any questions people have to get asked. Though if they've already been asked I'll just post the answers instead.
What are the unrevealed chapter tactics rules? That might serve to assuage a lot of the complaining about UM tactics.
They won't say until 1 Sep. I'm at least trying to find out who is missing stuff though.
Vaerros wrote: I'll be interested in seeing how Shrike finally ends up. It still seems like he's just too expensive.
So far the only rule I've seen is that he can only Infiltrate with other Jump Infantry units and the limited chunk of Chapter Traits we've seen so far. He personally has no more special rules.
xruslanx wrote: there's no way that the new codex will explicitly state that you need the right colour and insignia in order to take special charecters. That would be catastrophically stupid.
Exactly. You have to have the correct chapter tactic to use the character. So you could do CT Ultramarines, painted as the sons of medusa, and use Tigurius.....but you couldn't use Vulkan.
xruslanx wrote: there's no way that the new codex will explicitly state that you need the right colour and insignia in order to take special charecters. That would be catastrophically stupid.
Exactly. You have to have the correct chapter tactic to use the character. So you could do CT Ultramarines, painted as the sons of medusa, and use Tigurius.....but you couldn't use Vulkan.
That seems most likely, or at least the way it will be played. The successors foot note may be for specifically Crimson Fists being unable to take Imperial Fists characters.
Here's hoping that IH get something more, like a named character since I do believe they are the only founding chapter not to get one. Maybe a dreadnaught HQ.
Spartan089 wrote: Here's hoping that IH get something more, like a named character since I do believe they are the only founding chapter not to get one. Maybe a dreadnaught HQ.
If not now, then at least when they get their supplement...
xruslanx wrote: there's no way that the new codex will explicitly state that you need the right colour and insignia in order to take special charecters. That would be catastrophically stupid.
Exactly. You have to have the correct chapter tactic to use the character. So you could do CT Ultramarines, painted as the sons of medusa, and use Tigurius.....but you couldn't use Vulkan.
That seems most likely, or at least the way it will be played. The successors foot note may be for specifically Crimson Fists being unable to take Imperial Fists characters.
...and BT. For all UM whine in these threads, the IF get themselves and two successors fleshed out, and in detail.
Spartan089 wrote: Here's hoping that IH get something more, like a named character since I do believe they are the only founding chapter not to get one. Maybe a dreadnaught HQ.
There are no new SCs in the book, especially not Dreadnought HQs. And we can just ally in Bjorn if we really want.
Terminator armor on sergeants though, that would be a nice addition.
There are no new SCs in the book, especially not Dreadnought HQs. And we can just ally in Bjorn if we really want.
Terminator armor on sergeants though, that would be a nice addition.
It's really too bad they screwed the pooch on Bjorn when updating to 6th, he really needs a couple extra hull points. Alternatively, make him like Sammael in Sableclaw, 14/14/10, (maybe a little better back armor) or something. Either way, allying in Bjorn as the IHHQ would be cool, if not really competitive, sadly :(
There are no new SCs in the book, especially not Dreadnought HQs. And we can just ally in Bjorn if we really want.
Terminator armor on sergeants though, that would be a nice addition.
It's really too bad they screwed the pooch on Bjorn when updating to 6th, he really needs a couple extra hull points. Alternatively, make him like Sammael in Sableclaw, 14/14/10, (maybe a little better back armor) or something. Either way, allying in Bjorn as the IHHQ would be cool, if not really competitive, sadly :(
Bjorn does well with the Las-Cannon or Plasma Cannon as long range fire support, he just can't handle being in the front line anymore.
Bjorn does well with the Las-Cannon or Plasma Cannon as long range fire support, he just can't handle being in the front line anymore.
Yes, but for his points cost you could take two regular dreadnoughts built for fire support. Admittedly, each individual one isn't as good as Bjorn, but you'd have twice the firepower, and two threats for the enemy to deal with instead of one. He's still cool and can be fun, but I don't think he's really worth the premium cost, sadly.
Lobukia wrote: Are centurions S&P. If so, won't they always get the 5 shots with the GravCannon? Unless I'm missing something, why would they have the salvo rule?
Lobukia wrote: Are centurions S&P. If so, won't they always get the 5 shots with the GravCannon? Unless I'm missing something, why would they have the salvo rule?
tvih wrote: CSM... yeah because they clearly need to have W4 A4 T6 nurgle biker lords running around with daemon weapons and such.
Also, they CAN get 4 wounds and 4 attacks with upgrades. Do show me the loyalist Captain that can have the T5 W4 A4 that a Juggernaut Lord has while doing up to 13 I5 S6 AP2 attacks on the charge?
Furthermore Nurgle Lord with a Palanguin of Nurgle can even have 5 wounds at T5 and 4 base attacks.
They also can get an AP3 torrent flamer. Hell, with the new BL supplement it seems you can even have EW. Not sure on the restrictions, but seems like a pretty damn solid option.
CSM do have valid things to complain about, but Chaos Lords vs SM Captains/Chapter Masters just isn't one of them.
cant mix daemon items from Bl sup and codex. if taking BL sup add x ppm to make them vets, the EW item replaces one weapon you have thus dropping your attacks.
and you are talking best case scenario with a lot of that, saying they can then you need to roll a D66 to get upgrades is rubbish, and the mounts are ok, though the nurgle one is not great and SNP if i remember right, jugger lord is about the best of them though nurgle biker is great too. but then there we have the only 2 that are really worth it.
i think chapter tactics for CSM would have been great and given some of the flavour that many csm players wanted. instead of left out in the cold.
Spartan089 wrote: Here's hoping that IH get something more, like a named character since I do believe they are the only founding chapter not to get one. Maybe a dreadnaught HQ.
There are no new SCs in the book, especially not Dreadnought HQs. And we can just ally in Bjorn if we really want.
Terminator armor on sergeants though, that would be a nice addition.
I wonder how Forgeworld "named" units will work now. Bray'Arth Ashmantle is the example you made me think of.
Spartan089 wrote: Here's hoping that IH get something more, like a named character since I do believe they are the only founding chapter not to get one. Maybe a dreadnaught HQ.
rumor is (many pages back from 40k radio) that IH wont get any characters
Davor wrote: Are the FotM and WAAC players complaining crying already? At least wait till the codex comes out first guys.
I can't have Tirgrus and Vulkan together. WAAAAAAA
Hey wait a minute, why not play Chaos or other armies, and then you will see how have it you have.
I guess, it's true, SM players need the easy button. (Ok not all SM players but the way some people are going on, it sure seems like it.)
Actually the though of the Master of the Forge getting a Grav-Cannon would be cool just for the Cool Factor more than WAAC.
Yes there are those who will just put him on a Bike, but I would also love to see the expersion on that so called WAAC Player when ho looks across the board at the Ork/Grot Tee-Shirt Army.
I am just happy to hear that my favorite unit(sternguard) is getting a points decrease. and from the sounds of the rumors I will be able to run my all infantry army with some success.
But at the same time if I want to change up my list and choose a different theme I will be able to run mechanized or all varients in between.
Davor wrote: Are the FotM and WAAC players complaining crying already? At least wait till the codex comes out first guys.
I can't have Tirgrus and Vulkan together. WAAAAAAA
Hey wait a minute, why not play Chaos or other armies, and then you will see how have it you have.
I guess, it's true, SM players need the easy button. (Ok not all SM players but the way some people are going on, it sure seems like it.)
Actually the though of the Master of the Forge getting a Grav-Cannon would be cool just for the Cool Factor more than WAAC.
Yes there are those who will just put him on a Bike, but I would also love to see the expersion on that so called WAAC Player when ho looks across the board at the Ork/Grot Tee-Shirt Army.
Considering what your UM tacticals would do to that list, its a trade I'll take. I'd really like to run 6 centurions and the MotF all Grav'd out. I don't think it's the best WAAC way to go, but it would look pretty sweet.
Davor wrote: Are the FotM and WAAC players complaining crying already? At least wait till the codex comes out first guys.
I can't have Tirgrus and Vulkan together. WAAAAAAA
Hey wait a minute, why not play Chaos or other armies, and then you will see how have it you have.
I guess, it's true, SM players need the easy button. (Ok not all SM players but the way some people are going on, it sure seems like it.)
Actually the though of the Master of the Forge getting a Grav-Cannon would be cool just for the Cool Factor more than WAAC.
Yes there are those who will just put him on a Bike, but I would also love to see the expersion on that so called WAAC Player when ho looks across the board at the Ork/Grot Tee-Shirt Army.
Considering what your UM tacticals would do to that list, its a trade I'll take. I'd really like to run 6 centurions and the MotF all Grav'd out. I don't think it's the best WAAC way to go, but it would look pretty sweet.
Ultra Tactical linking on regular centurians with grav cannons is nice(useless on other centurians) but I dont see too much benefit on a character who already has BS5. On the other hand, IWND, 6+ FNP and +1 to repairs will do an Iron Father well.
Shame it doesnt look like you can take grav cannons on them.
Crazyterran wrote: Yeah, my Contemptor Mortis are pretty happy that they are getting free Twin-Linked, essentially.
Do we know that for sure yet though?
Could be the case that the troops and vehicles in the book all have "chapter tactics" or something similar as a rule, and that FW units that don't have that won't benefit.
MandalorynOranj wrote: On a BS5 character you're twin-linking them for free, what's not to like?
o its great. but you can already reliably expect a fair number of hits, so getting more does really make you that much more effective or reliable. I think the Iron father we are talking about gains more from a different CT. The army might be better with the suido twinlinking but the model, I feel is better with IH ones.
Nosebiter wrote: Jeez, talk about limiting what SC's you can take. So if i want Kantor i HAVE to use crimson fists? Not even imperial fists? And diy chapters get nada SC's?
Heaven forbid people do counts as armies?
I run my Red Hunters using Salamanders rules and Vulkan. Same rules, different paint scheme and more stylized models, but everything is still WYSIWYG.
And anyone who wants to throw a fit about me doing that can happily opt to not play against me.
Boo hoo if people can't min max the rules to allow them to run multiple SC's or mix and match SC's and Tactics as they want. Pick a team and roll with it. If anything, DIY chapters have the versatility of being ANY successor chapter if you write the fluff for it and convert up SC's for it.
/rant
On to the 40k Radio notes:
Why would they make tanks which are subpar at the moment more expensive?
And while I see the logic in it, restricting AA tanks to ONLY AA makes them a gamble if you come across someone who isn't running a flyer for some reason(rare in the current game it would seem, but a risk nonetheless).
I do find the Heavy weapons in 5 man units interesting, and could make for some fun combos.
The book needs to drop already so that I can write up a new list and finalize my models. This leak has put my entire army on hold until I find out what is worth keeping.
Spartan089 wrote: Here's hoping that IH get something more, like a named character since I do believe they are the only founding chapter not to get one. Maybe a dreadnaught HQ.
rumor is (many pages back from 40k radio) that IH wont get any characters
I just don't understand it, why give literally every other founding chapter a character except IH...I'd take even a name and have him be a generic chapter master just so GW could show they cared.
Spartan089 wrote: Here's hoping that IH get something more, like a named character since I do believe they are the only founding chapter not to get one. Maybe a dreadnaught HQ.
rumor is (many pages back from 40k radio) that IH wont get any characters
I just don't understand it, why give literally every other founding chapter a character except IH...I'd take even a name and have him be a generic chapter master just so GW could show they cared.
If that's all you want, then by all means, you have Davous' permission
Davor wrote: Are the FotM and WAAC players complaining crying already? At least wait till the codex comes out first guys.
I can't have Tirgrus and Vulkan together. WAAAAAAA
Hey wait a minute, why not play Chaos or other armies, and then you will see how have it you have.
I guess, it's true, SM players need the easy button. (Ok not all SM players but the way some people are going on, it sure seems like it.)
Actually the though of the Master of the Forge getting a Grav-Cannon would be cool just for the Cool Factor more than WAAC.
Yes there are those who will just put him on a Bike, but I would also love to see the expersion on that so called WAAC Player when ho looks across the board at the Ork/Grot Tee-Shirt Army.
Considering what your UM tacticals would do to that list, its a trade I'll take. I'd really like to run 6 centurions and the MotF all Grav'd out. I don't think it's the best WAAC way to go, but it would look pretty sweet.
Ultra Tactical linking on regular centurians with grav cannons is nice(useless on other centurians) but I dont see too much benefit on a character who already has BS5. On the other hand, IWND, 6+ FNP and +1 to repairs will do an Iron Father well.
Shame it doesnt look like you can take grav cannons on them.
Forget a named character.... if you could take a MOTF with a grav-cannon and have him have IWND, 6+ FNP and +1 to repairs that'd be good enough in my book. Also wish IH somehow got access to the DA shield generator option.
Spartan089 wrote: Here's hoping that IH get something more, like a named character since I do believe they are the only founding chapter not to get one. Maybe a dreadnaught HQ.
rumor is (many pages back from 40k radio) that IH wont get any characters
I just don't understand it, why give literally every other founding chapter a character except IH...I'd take even a name and have him be a generic chapter master just so GW could show they cared.
They cared enough to give them chapter traits that was essentially old bionics and something to represent their advanced repair technology, and, if what they say is true, dedicated fluff bits in the Iron Hands 'section'.
A lot more than they got out of 4th or 5th's books. 4th Ed was literally nothing other than 2 traits in the old system, 5th was a short story in the fluff section.
My friend at the local GW gets his Iron Hands confused with Black Templar all the time. It makes me lol.
I think I am going to buy the Codex, Raven Guard Supplement, 2x Stern Guard, 1x or 2x Centurions and a Stalker. I might get the Vanguard, but I am not sure yet.
Anpu42 wrote: I think I am going to buy the Codex, Raven Guard Supplement, 2x Stern Guard, 1x or 2x Centurions and a Stalker. I might get the Vanguard, but I am not sure yet.
The Raven Guard supplement in what? a few months? a year?
Nosebiter wrote: Jeez, talk about limiting what SC's you can take. So if i want Kantor i HAVE to use crimson fists? Not even imperial fists? And diy chapters get nada SC's?
Heaven forbid people do counts as armies?
I run my Red Hunters using Salamanders rules and Vulkan. Same rules, different paint scheme and more stylized models, but everything is still WYSIWYG.
And anyone who wants to throw a fit about me doing that can happily opt to not play against me.
Boo hoo if people can't min max the rules to allow them to run multiple SC's or mix and match SC's and Tactics as they want. Pick a team and roll with it. If anything, DIY chapters have the versatility of being ANY successor chapter if you write the fluff for it and convert up SC's for it.
/rant
On to the 40k Radio notes:
Why would they make tanks which are subpar at the moment more expensive?
And while I see the logic in it, restricting AA tanks to ONLY AA makes them a gamble if you come across someone who isn't running a flyer for some reason(rare in the current game it would seem, but a risk nonetheless).
I do find the Heavy weapons in 5 man units interesting, and could make for some fun combos.
The book needs to drop already so that I can write up a new list and finalize my models. This leak has put my entire army on hold until I find out what is worth keeping.
I hope you enjoyed your ride on that high horse mate, because even the Proper Righteous and Pure way of playing that you favour is humped - SCs are limited to their chapter of origin only. No successors, no counts-as - you want an SC? Get painting, 'cause you'll need a new army.
Anpu42 wrote: I think I am going to buy the Codex, Raven Guard Supplement, 2x Stern Guard, 1x or 2x Centurions and a Stalker. I might get the Vanguard, but I am not sure yet.
The Raven Guard supplement in what? a few months? a year?
Nosebiter wrote: Jeez, talk about limiting what SC's you can take. So if i want Kantor i HAVE to use crimson fists? Not even imperial fists? And diy chapters get nada SC's?
Heaven forbid people do counts as armies?
I run my Red Hunters using Salamanders rules and Vulkan. Same rules, different paint scheme and more stylized models, but everything is still WYSIWYG.
And anyone who wants to throw a fit about me doing that can happily opt to not play against me.
Boo hoo if people can't min max the rules to allow them to run multiple SC's or mix and match SC's and Tactics as they want. Pick a team and roll with it. If anything, DIY chapters have the versatility of being ANY successor chapter if you write the fluff for it and convert up SC's for it.
/rant
On to the 40k Radio notes:
Why would they make tanks which are subpar at the moment more expensive?
And while I see the logic in it, restricting AA tanks to ONLY AA makes them a gamble if you come across someone who isn't running a flyer for some reason(rare in the current game it would seem, but a risk nonetheless).
I do find the Heavy weapons in 5 man units interesting, and could make for some fun combos.
The book needs to drop already so that I can write up a new list and finalize my models. This leak has put my entire army on hold until I find out what is worth keeping.
I hope you enjoyed your ride on that high horse mate, because even the Proper Righteous and Pure way of playing that you favour is humped - SCs are limited to their chapter of origin only. No successors, no counts-as - you want an SC? Get painting, 'cause you'll need a new army.
The nice thing about only playing with friends, is that stupid little things like "Because GW says so" don't carry any weight, especially when it comes to something that in no way affects game balance. Tourney players might have it rough, but the casuals will move on as we always have.
I don't see the issue: I say "it's salamanders, only red and with GK styled armor" and my opponent understands that Salamanders rules will be in play...
That some kind of hard limit with 40k players that I'm unaware of? WFB players are FAR more lenient when it comes to Rule of Cool.
Nosebiter wrote: Jeez, talk about limiting what SC's you can take. So if i want Kantor i HAVE to use crimson fists? Not even imperial fists? And diy chapters get nada SC's?
Heaven forbid people do counts as armies?
I run my Red Hunters using Salamanders rules and Vulkan. Same rules, different paint scheme and more stylized models, but everything is still WYSIWYG.
And anyone who wants to throw a fit about me doing that can happily opt to not play against me.
Boo hoo if people can't min max the rules to allow them to run multiple SC's or mix and match SC's and Tactics as they want. Pick a team and roll with it. If anything, DIY chapters have the versatility of being ANY successor chapter if you write the fluff for it and convert up SC's for it.
/rant
On to the 40k Radio notes:
Why would they make tanks which are subpar at the moment more expensive?
And while I see the logic in it, restricting AA tanks to ONLY AA makes them a gamble if you come across someone who isn't running a flyer for some reason(rare in the current game it would seem, but a risk nonetheless).
I do find the Heavy weapons in 5 man units interesting, and could make for some fun combos.
The book needs to drop already so that I can write up a new list and finalize my models. This leak has put my entire army on hold until I find out what is worth keeping.
I hope you enjoyed your ride on that high horse mate, because even the Proper Righteous and Pure way of playing that you favour is humped - SCs are limited to their chapter of origin only. No successors, no counts-as - you want an SC? Get painting, 'cause you'll need a new army.
The nice thing about only playing with friends, is that stupid little things like "Because GW says so" don't carry any weight, especially when it comes to something that in no way affects game balance. Tourney players might have it rough, but the casuals will move on as we always have.
I don't see the issue: I say "it's salamanders, only red and with GK styled armor" and my opponent understands that Salamanders rules will be in play...
That some kind of hard limit with 40k players that I'm unaware of? WFB players are FAR more lenient when it comes to Rule of Cool.
Apart from the one you arbitrarily imposed in your wee rant I was responding to? Not really.
Nosebiter wrote: Jeez, talk about limiting what SC's you can take. So if i want Kantor i HAVE to use crimson fists? Not even imperial fists? And diy chapters get nada SC's?
Heaven forbid people do counts as armies?
I run my Red Hunters using Salamanders rules and Vulkan. Same rules, different paint scheme and more stylized models, but everything is still WYSIWYG.
And anyone who wants to throw a fit about me doing that can happily opt to not play against me.
Boo hoo if people can't min max the rules to allow them to run multiple SC's or mix and match SC's and Tactics as they want. Pick a team and roll with it. If anything, DIY chapters have the versatility of being ANY successor chapter if you write the fluff for it and convert up SC's for it.
/rant
On to the 40k Radio notes:
Why would they make tanks which are subpar at the moment more expensive?
And while I see the logic in it, restricting AA tanks to ONLY AA makes them a gamble if you come across someone who isn't running a flyer for some reason(rare in the current game it would seem, but a risk nonetheless).
I do find the Heavy weapons in 5 man units interesting, and could make for some fun combos.
The book needs to drop already so that I can write up a new list and finalize my models. This leak has put my entire army on hold until I find out what is worth keeping.
I hope you enjoyed your ride on that high horse mate, because even the Proper Righteous and Pure way of playing that you favour is humped - SCs are limited to their chapter of origin only. No successors, no counts-as - you want an SC? Get painting, 'cause you'll need a new army.
That's interesting to hear. So now you are telling me how to paint my models?
Nosebiter wrote: Jeez, talk about limiting what SC's you can take. So if i want Kantor i HAVE to use crimson fists? Not even imperial fists? And diy chapters get nada SC's?
Heaven forbid people do counts as armies?
I run my Red Hunters using Salamanders rules and Vulkan. Same rules, different paint scheme and more stylized models, but everything is still WYSIWYG.
And anyone who wants to throw a fit about me doing that can happily opt to not play against me.
Boo hoo if people can't min max the rules to allow them to run multiple SC's or mix and match SC's and Tactics as they want. Pick a team and roll with it. If anything, DIY chapters have the versatility of being ANY successor chapter if you write the fluff for it and convert up SC's for it.
/rant
On to the 40k Radio notes:
Why would they make tanks which are subpar at the moment more expensive?
And while I see the logic in it, restricting AA tanks to ONLY AA makes them a gamble if you come across someone who isn't running a flyer for some reason(rare in the current game it would seem, but a risk nonetheless).
I do find the Heavy weapons in 5 man units interesting, and could make for some fun combos.
The book needs to drop already so that I can write up a new list and finalize my models. This leak has put my entire army on hold until I find out what is worth keeping.
I hope you enjoyed your ride on that high horse mate, because even the Proper Righteous and Pure way of playing that you favour is humped - SCs are limited to their chapter of origin only. No successors, no counts-as - you want an SC? Get painting, 'cause you'll need a new army.
Yes, GW will be doing their best to kill off sales of SC models to counts-as and sucessor players by banning their use with an unenforceable limitation based on the color paint a model has. I guess that means that grey plastic models are not ultramarines, so no SCs for them until they paint their force. Though that last may not be a negative.
Q: Is there a way to get Eternal Warrior?
A: Yes (will be covered in show (Zion's Speculation: It's a Relic))
Yay! The legacy of the Adamantine Mantle Marshal lives on!
Rather iffy on whether Helbrecht and Grimaldus will be of use, depends on their cost I guess. Helbrecht no longer blocking an Adamantine Mantle from being in the army will do wonders for his playability, as will his special rule. I'm just hoping he doesn't go up in cost.
Nosebiter wrote: Jeez, talk about limiting what SC's you can take. So if i want Kantor i HAVE to use crimson fists? Not even imperial fists? And diy chapters get nada SC's?
Heaven forbid people do counts as armies?
I run my Red Hunters using Salamanders rules and Vulkan. Same rules, different paint scheme and more stylized models, but everything is still WYSIWYG.
And anyone who wants to throw a fit about me doing that can happily opt to not play against me.
Boo hoo if people can't min max the rules to allow them to run multiple SC's or mix and match SC's and Tactics as they want. Pick a team and roll with it. If anything, DIY chapters have the versatility of being ANY successor chapter if you write the fluff for it and convert up SC's for it.
/rant
On to the 40k Radio notes:
Why would they make tanks which are subpar at the moment more expensive?
And while I see the logic in it, restricting AA tanks to ONLY AA makes them a gamble if you come across someone who isn't running a flyer for some reason(rare in the current game it would seem, but a risk nonetheless).
I do find the Heavy weapons in 5 man units interesting, and could make for some fun combos.
The book needs to drop already so that I can write up a new list and finalize my models. This leak has put my entire army on hold until I find out what is worth keeping.
I hope you enjoyed your ride on that high horse mate, because even the Proper Righteous and Pure way of playing that you favour is humped - SCs are limited to their chapter of origin only. No successors, no counts-as - you want an SC? Get painting, 'cause you'll need a new army.
Yes, GW will be doing their best to kill off sales of SC models to counts-as and sucessor players by banning their use with an unenforceable limitation based on the color paint a model has. I guess that means that grey plastic models are not ultramarines, so no SCs for them until they paint their force. Though that last may not be a negative.
I don't know why the hell everyone is jumping on me about this, I'm just going by the rumour roundup Zion posted, and I'm against any limitations on counts-as at all, hence the high horse comment addressed at Aerethan.
Yodhrin wrote: I don't know why the hell everyone is jumping on me about this, I'm just going by the rumour roundup Zion posted, and I'm against any limitations on counts-as at all, hence the high horse comment addressed at Aerethan.
I think it might be that most people are reading it as "You can only take Chapter Tactics and Special Characters from the same Chapter." and taking from it that you can't take Vulkan with Ultramarine CTs.
From your post it looks like you are taking it as "You can only take Chapter Tactics and Special Characters if your army is painted as the appropriate Chapter" which is what is getting people's panties in a twist. That definitely wouldnt work for a lot of Homebrew chapters or themed armies like my Deathwatch force.
Personally I would love to mix-n-match, but the main reason I want it (Lysander 4 Wounds, EW, 2+, 3++ combined with IHCT to get IWND and a FNP 6+) is probably an example of the main reason why this rule is in place.
xruslanx wrote: there's no way that the new codex will explicitly state that you need the right colour and insignia in order to take special charecters. That would be catastrophically stupid.
One would assume so, but GW have occasionally done some really stupid gak right?
Yodhrin wrote: I don't know why the hell everyone is jumping on me about this, I'm just going by the rumour roundup Zion posted, and I'm against any limitations on counts-as at all, hence the high horse comment addressed at Aerethan.
I think it might be that most people are reading it as "You can only take Chapter Tactics and Special Characters from the same Chapter." and taking from it that you can't take Vulkan with Ultramarine CTs.
From your post it looks like you are taking it as "You can only take Chapter Tactics and Special Characters if your army is painted as the appropriate Chapter" which is what is getting people's panties in a twist. That definitely wouldnt work for a lot of Homebrew chapters or themed armies like my Deathwatch force.
Personally I would love to mix-n-match, but the main reason I want it (Lysander 4 Wounds, EW, 2+, 3++ combined with IHCT to get IWND and a FNP 6+) is probably an example of the main reason why this rule is in place.
This, and you may have been going for sarcasm, but it came across as sort of snide instead. Tone on the interwebs and all that. If you meant it as sarcasm, then apologies.
It might sound nasty, but if it ends up costing tons of points it won't be worth it for competitive builds.
If the EW item is the Stormshield as many suspect, and if it still gives you a 3++, I can easily see it costing 65pts (I believe they said thats how much the most expensive relic will cost.)
It might sound nasty, but if it ends up costing tons of points it won't be worth it for competitive builds.
If the EW item is the Stormshield as many suspect, and if it still gives you a 3++, I can easily see it costing 65pts (I believe they said thats how much the most expensive relic will cost.)
It could also be the armor- Artificer that grants EW would also make sense for the 65 point relic.
It might sound nasty, but if it ends up costing tons of points it won't be worth it for competitive builds.
This is something that bothers me the most ... why can't we buy things from the armory for special characters. Why do I have to endure a Storm Bolter on Draigo - just let them also take Wargear as usual, of course this could result in very strong combos - but then make those choices more expensive for them!?
Yes, a lot of choices are not very competitive - but then just balance out point costs, it's not that it is impossible - they are just lazy.
I think it's pretty intended that special characters don't get wargear choices from their nature.
Firstly they would step on the toes of the customisable 'generic' characters.
Secondly, in 2nd edition they could take wargear and it was pretty crazy with the combos you had with their wargear choice and unique character special rules in some cases.
It might sound nasty, but if it ends up costing tons of points it won't be worth it for competitive builds.
This is something that bothers me the most ... why can't we buy things from the armory for special characters. Why do I have to endure a Storm Bolter on Draigo - just let them also take Wargear as usual, of course this could result in very strong combos - but then make those choices more expensive for them!?
Yes, a lot of choices are not very competitive - but then just balance out point costs, it's not that it is impossible - they are just lazy.
Because it would make SCs ridiculously op. Imagine if someone gave Draigo a Nemesis Warding Stave or if you could give Mephiston a Storm Shield. Yes, it would probably be like 60, maybe even 100 points to do so but it would make them all-but-unkillable so many people would still take them. Plus the whole point about SCs is that they're supposed to be unique with their gear since it often figures into their fluff (the Titansword, Yriel's spear, etc.)
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Rather iffy on whether Helbrecht and Grimaldus will be of use, depends on their cost I guess. Helbrecht no longer blocking an Adamantine Mantle from being in the army will do wonders for his playability, as will his special rule. I'm just hoping he doesn't go up in cost.
40k Radio's said that Helbrecht will be 185, so up 10 points.
As for the EW thing it's indeed great news, though I'm also worried - it's a C:SM relic, and if/when BT gets a supplement, we might lose access to it the same way the Black Legion supplement can't take an Axe of Blinding Fury, for example. That'd suck, unless of course we got a different way of getting EW instead.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Yes, GW will be doing their best to kill off sales of SC models to counts-as and sucessor players by banning their use with an unenforceable limitation based on the color paint a model has. I guess that means that grey plastic models are not ultramarines, so no SCs for them until they paint their force. Though that last may not be a negative.
Exactly.
It's far more likely that 40k-radio used a bad wording, which is understandable because I still don't understand the question:
Q: In 5th Edition you were encouraged to use SCs as "Count-As" special characters to give you some new/interesting combinations. Is there anything in the new book that allows you to do this?
A: You can no longer do that due to Chapter Tactics.
The entire point of "count-as" is that you pick a model and use it as a model that it isn't intended for.
So how can count-as ever be in the codex?
It will probably go like this:
1. Pick a Chapter you want to play as.
2. Pick a Trait you want to use (most armies have 1, but UM have three)
3. Pick the models that are allowed in the Chapter, only take unique characters that are allowed in that Chapter.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Rather iffy on whether Helbrecht and Grimaldus will be of use, depends on their cost I guess. Helbrecht no longer blocking an Adamantine Mantle from being in the army will do wonders for his playability, as will his special rule. I'm just hoping he doesn't go up in cost.
40k Radio's said that Helbrecht will be 185, so up 10 points.
Hey, that might actually make him playable! He's not too bad as is, with 2+/4++/6+++ and 4 wounds and up to 8 attacks on the charge, plus the combi-melta, the issue is that he blocks the Adamantine Mantle. With a small points increase and a support rule he might actually be pretty good. Granting that fleet reroll on a Crusader blob while acting as a pseudo-Chaplain (while being much harder to kill) seems rather interesting. At least my Helbrecht model will get a few games in.
Because it would make SCs ridiculously op. Imagine if someone gave Draigo a Nemesis Warding Stave or if you could give Mephiston a Storm Shield. Yes, it would probably be like 60, maybe even 100 points to do so but it would make them all-but-unkillable so many people would still take them. Plus the whole point about SCs is that they're supposed to be unique with their gear since it often figures into their fluff (the Titansword, Yriel's spear, etc.)
Then up the cost, one of the main reason why we take non-SC is because they are usually cheaper.
Would you really take a Nemesis Warding Stave with Draigo? That guy already costs more than a Land Raider.
If a unit decision is a no-brainer, then the chance is high that it's underpriced for what it does in relation to other choices.
I have no problem with Characters being near-immortal machines, I could imagine a Character like Celestine with 2+/2++ armour, 4 Wounds, Eternal Warrior, Toughness 5 ... if it costs as much as half an army, what is the problem? It can still die through a hundred lasgun shots ...
There is only a problem when a model costs too much or too less so it's either a no-brainer OR a lol-I-will-never-take-that
Any chance the OP could keep the first post updated?
This thread is 137 pages long and it seems, from a glance, that there are,already pretty strong rumours about Chapter Tactics, special rules, etc etc somewhere within the thread. Why aren't these in the OP, as is normal for a rumours thread?
ArbitorIan wrote:Any chance the OP could keep the first post updated?
This thread is 137 pages long and it seems, from a glance, that there are,already pretty strong rumours about Chapter Tactics, special rules, etc etc somewhere within the thread. Why aren't these in the OP, as is normal for a rumours thread?
I was on a holiday to Italy, without internet access. Added the Q&A to the first post.
Because it would make SCs ridiculously op. Imagine if someone gave Draigo a Nemesis Warding Stave or if you could give Mephiston a Storm Shield. Yes, it would probably be like 60, maybe even 100 points to do so but it would make them all-but-unkillable so many people would still take them. Plus the whole point about SCs is that they're supposed to be unique with their gear since it often figures into their fluff (the Titansword, Yriel's spear, etc.)
Then up the cost, one of the main reason why we take non-SC is because they are usually cheaper.
Would you really take a Nemesis Warding Stave with Draigo? That guy already costs more than a Land Raider.
If a unit decision is a no-brainer, then the chance is high that it's underpriced for what it does in relation to other choices.
I have no problem with Characters being near-immortal machines, I could imagine a Character like Celestine with 2+/2++ armour, 4 Wounds, Eternal Warrior, Toughness 5 ... if it costs as much as half an army, what is the problem? It can still die through a hundred lasgun shots ...
There is only a problem when a model costs too much or too less so it's either a no-brainer OR a lol-I-will-never-take-that
never played against sob, but from the stats you posted 100 lasgun shots certainly would not kill celestine. 100 shots gets you 50 hits, 8 wounds, 1.3 after saves. Try 300 lasgun shots, aka more than you could possibly get off in an entire game.
Because it would make SCs ridiculously op. Imagine if someone gave Draigo a Nemesis Warding Stave or if you could give Mephiston a Storm Shield. Yes, it would probably be like 60, maybe even 100 points to do so but it would make them all-but-unkillable so many people would still take them. Plus the whole point about SCs is that they're supposed to be unique with their gear since it often figures into their fluff (the Titansword, Yriel's spear, etc.)
Then up the cost, one of the main reason why we take non-SC is because they are usually cheaper.
Would you really take a Nemesis Warding Stave with Draigo? That guy already costs more than a Land Raider.
If a unit decision is a no-brainer, then the chance is high that it's underpriced for what it does in relation to other choices.
I have no problem with Characters being near-immortal machines, I could imagine a Character like Celestine with 2+/2++ armour, 4 Wounds, Eternal Warrior, Toughness 5 ... if it costs as much as half an army, what is the problem? It can still die through a hundred lasgun shots ...
There is only a problem when a model costs too much or too less so it's either a no-brainer OR a lol-I-will-never-take-that
never played against sob, but from the stats you posted 100 lasgun shots certainly would not kill celestine. 100 shots gets you 50 hits, 8 wounds, 1.3 after saves. Try 300 lasgun shots, aka more than you could possibly get off in an entire game.
And then she stands up again...
EDIT: Back on topic, 25 points for a Power Fist with 1A? Are they out of their friggin' minds? The increase to 15 points for a Power Weapon on a schmuck is bad enough, but the Fist cost is just... wow.
It might sound nasty, but if it ends up costing tons of points it won't be worth it for competitive builds.
If the EW item is the Stormshield as many suspect, and if it still gives you a 3++, I can easily see it costing 65pts (I believe they said thats how much the most expensive relic will cost.)
It could also be the armor- Artificer that grants EW would also make sense for the 65 point relic.
isnt the BL artifact that gives EW more than that?
HoverBoy wrote: Because it isn't Kroothawk running this one.
Actually I made the mods add the pics.
If someone reposts all relevant links here (or PMs them to me, I write up something for the first post.
I only have the summary by a blog, but as Xeno player haven't followed or evaluated all the other rumours.
E.g. does anyone have the original radio link?
2. Pick a Trait you want to use (most armies have 1, but UM have three)
I had a thought. Doesn't it seem weird that the Ultras have one of three CT? Isn't it also weird that one is significant better than the others. Further if you go and did up where the 3 are rumored doesnt the language seem a little weird. (Rerolling all 1s and twinlinking tacticals is so much better than rerolling 1s on bolters or rerolling snap shots)
What IF, the Ultra Chapter Tactic is random, where you have to roll at the start of the game and get 1-2 Tactical, 3-4 Assault, 5-6 Devistator? That seems to make a lot more sense to me(although I just made it up, so it probably isn't) Perhaps one of the Ultra special characters lets you pick, but even though I just made this up, I wouldnt be surprised to see a random table.
HoverBoy wrote: Because it isn't Kroothawk running this one.
Actually I made the mods add the pics.
If someone reposts all relevant links here (or PMs them to me, I write up something for the first post.
I only have the summary by a blog, but as Xeno player haven't followed or evaluated all the other rumours.
E.g. does anyone have the original radio link?
Thanks for adding the pictures in my absence. The Q&A link is already added, it's the 40k Radio Facebook page where the Q&A was held in the comments. If you open the spoiler you get all the questions that have been answered there so you don't have to piece together hundreds of Facebook comments.
Another thing that's been bugging me, they keep saying that the Emperor's Champion is going to be a beast in Challenges, but 2 attacks base with an AP2 Relic Blade is pretty awful. Here's hoping that he's got more rules they haven't mentioned yet.
I am just happy to hear that my favorite unit(sternguard) is getting a points decrease. and from the sounds of the rumors I will be able to run my all infantry army with some success.
Not if you want to take combi weapons.
And while I see the logic in it, restricting AA tanks to ONLY AA makes them a gamble if you come across someone who isn't running a flyer for some reason(rare in the current game it would seem, but a risk nonetheless).
Exactly, not having interceptor is moronic at best. Hellturkeys dont come situational, they dont care if you have fliers or not, tehy can always whack things whereas their counters, the aaa tanks loose out if there are no fliers on the opponents side.
Some times I really wonder if gw shouldnt be looking for some IQ instead of only "attitude" in their employers.
I hope you enjoyed your ride on that high horse mate, because even the Proper Righteous and Pure way of playing that you favour is humped - SCs are limited to their chapter of origin only. No successors, no counts-as - you want an SC? Get painting, 'cause you'll need a new army.
That must be the lamest attempt by gw at making people buy more models/armies that I ever heard.
If this is true then the sheer arrogance in claiming you cant use a red painted army with a red painted vulkan model and count them as having salamanders chapter tactics or playing a green army with lots of scouts, a flier, assault marines and a green painted shrike and having those count as using raven guard tactics is just beyond stupid.
Sure, I would cringe a little if someone brought a 1ksons army but used gk rules (would be a small fluff error in my head) but I would still play against them and have fun but this?
Also, is there any new rule that will not "allow " us to use whatever chapter and play them with ultramarine chapter tactics (naturally without non ultra SCs)?
Can I use my salamanders with a generic hq as ultras or am I not "allowed" to do so?
lol
This could be something like 0-1 if each FA choice for Sally and IH and for a bonus... make take a Ven. Dread as a Warlord for IH.
Ven dreads are as far away from a "bonus" as you can possibly get with todays crappy hull point rules.
I have no problem with Characters being near-immortal machines, I could imagine a Character like Celestine with 2+/2++ armour, 4 Wounds, Eternal Warrior, Toughness 5 ... if it costs as much as half an army, what is the problem? It can still die through a hundred lasgun shots ...
I dont see that as fun gaming.
My super dragon and 5 troops against your 180 troops...fun?
There is only a problem when a model costs too much or too less so it's either a no-brainer OR a lol-I-will-never-take-that
True. Although I´m still afraid we will never see any LotD squads used on the table.
EDIT: Back on topic, 25 points for a Power Fist with 1A? Are they out of their friggin' minds? The increase to 15 points for a Power Weapon on a schmuck is bad enough, but the Fist cost is just... wow.
Exactly. So a fist for 25p and for that you get the honour of pretty much auto dying in a challenge.
I will enjoy my 90 points decrease across my three squads of sternguard, drop a few combi weapons, and then work in a squad or two of devestators with lascannons (since they are most likely seeing a points drop like in dark angels)
Drop it down to 2-3 combi weapons a squad at most. Also makes taking the actual weapons a better deal.
Leth wrote: I will enjoy my 90 points decrease across my three squads of sternguard, drop a few combi weapons, and then work in a squad or two of devestators with lascannons (since they are most likely seeing a points drop like in dark angels)
Drop it down to 2-3 combi weapons a squad at most. Also makes taking the actual weapons a better deal.
With the speudo linked fire on special ammo you should only really need 2 or may be 3 meltas in case you need to take out armor, but thats about it. Stern are for taking on key targets, not for killing hordes. A regular 10 marine squad with a free flamer can probably lo the same and cheaper (anti horde pod).
And while I see the logic in it, restricting AA tanks to ONLY AA makes them a gamble if you come across someone who isn't running a flyer for some reason(rare in the current game it would seem, but a risk nonetheless).
Exactly, not having interceptor is moronic at best. Hellturkeys dont come situational, they dont care if you have fliers or not, tehy can always whack things whereas their counters, the aaa tanks loose out if there are no fliers on the opponents side.
Against a force with no fliers you still get 8 snap-firing autocannon shots on an AV12 platform for 70 pts, netting you almost the same hits as a BS4 autocannon predator, which costs the same points. You're essentially trading 1 point of front AV for the ability to murderize two fliers a turn without honestly losing much against non-flyers. Looks pretty fair to me.
Adding Interceptor would pretty much double its points worth, IMHO. But I guess Marines must have the best of everything for the lowest price or they aren't happy.
And while I see the logic in it, restricting AA tanks to ONLY AA makes them a gamble if you come across someone who isn't running a flyer for some reason(rare in the current game it would seem, but a risk nonetheless).
Exactly, not having interceptor is moronic at best. Hellturkeys dont come situational, they dont care if you have fliers or not, tehy can always whack things whereas their counters, the aaa tanks loose out if there are no fliers on the opponents side.
Against a force with no fliers you still get 8 snap-firing autocannon shots on an AV12 platform for 70 pts, netting you almost the same hits as a BS4 autocannon predator, which costs the same points. You're essentially trading 1 point of front AV for the ability to murderize two fliers a turn without honestly losing much against non-flyers. Looks pretty fair to me.
Adding Interceptor would pretty much double its points worth, IMHO. But I guess Marines must have the best of everything for the lowest price or they aren't happy.
It isnt just flyers, there are a lot of skimmers out there.
I'm interested that Bikes can now get Grav Weapons (handy since they are Relentless) and Chapter Masters can make them Troops as well as Captains. With 4A and 4W they might be a better bet (depending on points).
EDIT: Back on topic, 25 points for a Power Fist with 1A? Are they out of their friggin' minds? The increase to 15 points for a Power Weapon on a schmuck is bad enough, but the Fist cost is just... wow.
Exactly. So a fist for 25p and for that you get the honour of pretty much auto dying in a challenge.
I'm fine with paying 25 points for a Power Fist on a 2A Sergeant, but 25 points on a random 1A Marine is insane, we currently pay 15 and the Powrr Fist is seen as a viable alternative to 10 point power weapons; with PWs at 15 and Fists at 25 it's just no contest.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: I'm interested that Bikes can now get Grav Weapons (handy since they are Relentless) and Chapter Masters can make them Troops as well as Captains. With 4A and 4W they might be a better bet (depending on points).
I already dread to think how much a grav gun will cost on bitz sites.
EDIT: Back on topic, 25 points for a Power Fist with 1A? Are they out of their friggin' minds? The increase to 15 points for a Power Weapon on a schmuck is bad enough, but the Fist cost is just... wow.
Exactly. So a fist for 25p and for that you get the honour of pretty much auto dying in a challenge.
Initiates aren't characters, so that model wouldn't be able to be challenged.
Leth wrote: I will enjoy my 90 points decrease across my three squads of sternguard, drop a few combi weapons, and then work in a squad or two of devestators with lascannons (since they are most likely seeing a points drop like in dark angels)
Drop it down to 2-3 combi weapons a squad at most. Also makes taking the actual weapons a better deal.
With the speudo linked fire on special ammo you should only really need 2 or may be 3 meltas in case you need to take out armor, but thats about it. Stern are for taking on key targets, not for killing hordes. A regular 10 marine squad with a free flamer can probably lo the same and cheaper (anti horde pod).
Tact Marines don't have free weapons anymore. Their load out costs are the same as the DA's.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lord_blackfang wrote: Against a force with no fliers you still get 8 snap-firing autocannon shots on an AV12 platform for 70 pts, netting you almost the same hits as a BS4 autocannon predator, which costs the same points. You're essentially trading 1 point of front AV for the ability to murderize two fliers a turn without honestly losing much against non-flyers. Looks pretty fair to me.
Adding Interceptor would pretty much double its points worth, IMHO. But I guess Marines must have the best of everything for the lowest price or they aren't happy.
I have a feeling that it's likely 4 shots at two different targets (one target per gun) or 4 TL shots versus a single target.
Against a force with no fliers you still get 8 snap-firing autocannon shots on an AV12 platform for 70 pts, netting you almost the same hits as a BS4 autocannon predator, which costs the same points. You're essentially trading 1 point of front AV for the ability to murderize two fliers a turn without honestly losing much against non-flyers. Looks pretty fair to me.
Against a force with no fliers you still get 8 snap-firing autocannon shots on an AV12 platform for 70 pts, netting you almost the same hits as a BS4 autocannon predator, which costs the same points. You're essentially trading 1 point of front AV for the ability to murderize two fliers a turn without honestly losing much against non-flyers. Looks pretty fair to me.
I hope you enjoyed your ride on that high horse mate, because even the Proper Righteous and Pure way of playing that you favour is humped - SCs are limited to their chapter of origin only. No successors, no counts-as - you want an SC? Get painting, 'cause you'll need a new army.
I hope there's some sarcasm involved here, because you have seriously misunderstood both the rules and the way army paints work in 40k
Against a force with no fliers you still get 8 snap-firing autocannon shots on an AV12 platform for 70 pts, netting you almost the same hits as a BS4 autocannon predator, which costs the same points. You're essentially trading 1 point of front AV for the ability to murderize two fliers a turn without honestly losing much against non-flyers. Looks pretty fair to me.
There is this one shot aaa tank...
it looks cooler, but is terrible...
But it has the potential to one shot any flyer that isn't a super heavy. 60" range, S7, AP2, Armourbane. That's a pretty decent chance of murdering things I think,
ClassicCarraway wrote: My question is how did 40k Radio get a full copy of the book almost a month early? Is this common for them?
It's not common for anyone really. We can always blame Matt Ward for it though.
Agree with pretty much everything you said. And the tanks not being able to shoot at ground units with full ballistic skill, that's just going to cost gw cash when it would have been an otherwise profitable rhino chasis.
Current rumours say there are none, instead you get a squad of hybrid Terminator/Dreadnought Marines called Centurions. Take a peek on the first page to check them out. The come in Assault or Devastator flavours.
Against a force with no fliers you still get 8 snap-firing autocannon shots on an AV12 platform for 70 pts, netting you almost the same hits as a BS4 autocannon predator, which costs the same points. You're essentially trading 1 point of front AV for the ability to murderize two fliers a turn without honestly losing much against non-flyers. Looks pretty fair to me.
There is this one shot aaa tank...
it looks cooler, but is terrible...
But it has the potential to one shot any flyer that isn't a super heavy. 60" range, S7, AP2, Armourbane. That's a pretty decent chance of murdering things I think,
33% chance to miss
16% chance to not pen AV11
66% chance to not explode a flyer.
with 8 shots on the hunter you are averaging 2.66 hullpoints stripped on AV11 with a small chance to explode. That is far more effective.
Against a force with no fliers you still get 8 snap-firing autocannon shots on an AV12 platform for 70 pts, netting you almost the same hits as a BS4 autocannon predator, which costs the same points. You're essentially trading 1 point of front AV for the ability to murderize two fliers a turn without honestly losing much against non-flyers. Looks pretty fair to me.
There is this one shot aaa tank...
it looks cooler, but is terrible...
But it has the potential to one shot any flyer that isn't a super heavy. 60" range, S7, AP2, Armourbane. That's a pretty decent chance of murdering things I think,
33% chance to miss
16% chance to not pen AV11
66% chance to not explode a flyer.
with 8 shots on the hunter you are averaging 2.66 hullpoints stripped on AV11 with a small chance to explode. That is far more effective.
It's not really the AV11 fliers I worry about as much as the AV12 Heldrake.
Either way I don't have any plans to get either AA tanks right away (I'm rather fond of the Storm Talon myself) but if I do, I'll likely try and build it so I can field either of them.
Leth wrote: Didnt they also say he re-rolls hits or something like that?
Re-roll hits and Str 6 ap 2 seems like a pretty beastly challenge fighter.
Against sergeants sure or characters with AP3 weapons, sure. Against someone with 3+ wounds and a power fist.... you'll just die.
EDIT: Back on topic, 25 points for a Power Fist with 1A? Are they out of their friggin' minds? The increase to 15 points for a Power Weapon on a schmuck is bad enough, but the Fist cost is just... wow.
Exactly. So a fist for 25p and for that you get the honour of pretty much auto dying in a challenge.
The fist would be on a regular squad member. But it's just too expensive. And I like my BT fist initiates... bah. Little point on putting it on a sarge since said sarge would indeed just die in a challenge before even getting to strike. Unless of course the sarge is accompanied by a badass IC who wants to CHALLENGE ALL THE THINGS! Regardless, I just wish "modern" codex writers had the sense of doing the same in all marines codices as it was with the current BT codex - cheaper upgrades such as power fists for single-wound models compared to HQs. But it'd make too much sense, I guess.
I'm still tinkering with the idea of BT crusader squads with 2 Power Axes and an HQ for challenges, or just keeping my single Initiate Powerfist and keeping them hidden. It's still going to be cheaper to run then it is currently from the 2 pt marine change.
Sternguard are your jack of all trades among a jack of all trades unit.
What you kit them out with is dependent on the rest of the list. I was talking about running devestators with tank hunter lascannons. I was not as worried about tanks. Also I think that in general the ignore cover rounds will be used against stubborn units in cover. In which case having the flamers is a better option.
It really is too situational on the list to give sweeping generalizations one way of the other.
From my reading of the blog post, I am under the impression you can now only have special characters with your your chapter trait? Like I can't have Vulkan and Calgar? If that's how it is, how do you have generic chapters with no traits? And what's more I have spent the last year collecting the SCs, so basically WTF?
Deadshot wrote: From my reading of the blog post, I am under the impression you can now only have special characters with your your chapter trait? Like I can't have Vulkan and Calgar? If that's how it is, how do you have generic chapters with no traits? And what's more I have spent the last year collecting the SCs, so basically WTF?
It sounds like when you make your list, you pick a Chapter Tactic. You can then take any special characters that also have that particular Chapter Tactic.
So if you make a chapter "The Emperor's Merkin", you would take "Chapter Tactics (Iron Hands)". You could then take any special characters that have Chapter Tactics (Iron Ha-... whoops! THERE ARE NONE...
(sorry Iron Hands players).
To finish my example though, say you take "Chapter Tactics (Salamanders)". That would let you take Vulcan, but you couldn't take Kantor or Tigurius.
Deadshot wrote: From my reading of the blog post, I am under the impression you can now only have special characters with your your chapter trait? Like I can't have Vulkan and Calgar? If that's how it is, how do you have generic chapters with no traits? And what's more I have spent the last year collecting the SCs, so basically WTF?
You can't take a chapter without traits. That was in the last blog post. Sorry.
That said, from what we have so far, two chapters can ally to each other. So you can have Salamanders, then take Calgar, his 3 squads of Honor Guard and a squad of Tact Marines as allies. They can't share rules or transports but you can bring both in the same army through your allied detachment.
You could also use the SC models as generic options too, as someone pointed out that Vulcan could very easily be a Captain in Artificer Armor with a Storm Shield and Relic Blade. Just make sure you tell your opponent.
Spoke to the manager at my FLGS yesterday about pre ordering some of the SM stuff and he said that he cannot guarantee anything right now because of a phone conversation he had with his GW rep. Essentially the rep has "confirmed" the upcoming release (well duuuuh) but that he couldn't even give him a number predictions because it looks to be that everything is going to be heavily allocated on a store by store basis. Even the Codex.
Against sergeants sure or characters with AP3 weapons, sure. Against someone with 3+ wounds and a power fist.... you'll just die.
wait, you mean that a Sargent in a tac squad isn't going to be able to kill an HQ unit? or a specialized assault character?say it isn't so... my Sargent can't kill Mephiston!
Don't get me wrong, it may not be the best option for all of your Sargents, but there is a place for it.
Nosebiter wrote: Jeez, talk about limiting what SC's you can take. So if i want Kantor i HAVE to use crimson fists? Not even imperial fists? And diy chapters get nada SC's?
Heaven forbid people do counts as armies?
I run my Red Hunters using Salamanders rules and Vulkan. Same rules, different paint scheme and more stylized models, but everything is still WYSIWYG.
And anyone who wants to throw a fit about me doing that can happily opt to not play against me.
Boo hoo if people can't min max the rules to allow them to run multiple SC's or mix and match SC's and Tactics as they want. Pick a team and roll with it. If anything, DIY chapters have the versatility of being ANY successor chapter if you write the fluff for it and convert up SC's for it.
/rant
On to the 40k Radio notes:
Why would they make tanks which are subpar at the moment more expensive?
And while I see the logic in it, restricting AA tanks to ONLY AA makes them a gamble if you come across someone who isn't running a flyer for some reason(rare in the current game it would seem, but a risk nonetheless).
I do find the Heavy weapons in 5 man units interesting, and could make for some fun combos.
The book needs to drop already so that I can write up a new list and finalize my models. This leak has put my entire army on hold until I find out what is worth keeping.
I hope you enjoyed your ride on that high horse mate, because even the Proper Righteous and Pure way of playing that you favour is humped - SCs are limited to their chapter of origin only. No successors, no counts-as - you want an SC? Get painting, 'cause you'll need a new army.
I Think you may be getting it a bit confused. If I play with the Ultramarine chapter tactics I can use ultra marine characters. It doesn't keep me from painting my army any color and calling them any damn thing I want. Calling my Marneus Calgar anything I want.
It only keeps me from running ultramarines chapter tactics and Cantor together. Or Cantor, with Telion. Or Vulkhan with Cantor etc... If I want to use Cantor I have to use the Imperial fists chapter tactics.
Now I can put together dark angels bikes in a bronze color scheme to go with all my other models and have a full wing of dark angels models that I can play as a dark angels list while still having a full contingent of tacticals and standard marine forces I play as a separate army when I want. I can even paint up space wolves models my chapter colors and play them as all one chapter if I like.
None of you can tell me how to play my army as long as I have models that properly represent what I am playing and the rules are all being used correctly.
Now we just have less two special character armies. Not like many ran both anyway. Especially since the abilities never worked with each other anyway.
MWHistorian wrote: "Dreads are basically the same" was a little disheartening. I was hoping for something. Any little thing would have been sufficient.
I was too. I was hoping that "Inspiring Presence" rule was true.
Killian wrote: Spoke to the manager at my FLGS yesterday about pre ordering some of the SM stuff and he said that he cannot guarantee anything right now because of a phone conversation he had with his GW rep. Essentially the rep has "confirmed" the upcoming release (well duuuuh) but that he couldn't even give him a number predictions because it looks to be that everything is going to be heavily allocated on a store by store basis. Even the Codex.
Looks like the Tau debacle is repeating itself!
I wouldn't call it a debacle as GW has always prioritized certain stores over others. They go where the money is. That said, I won't say GW can't under-predict sales again, but I would be a little surprised if they did.
Deadshot wrote: From my reading of the blog post, I am under the impression you can now only have special characters with your your chapter trait? Like I can't have Vulkan and Calgar? If that's how it is, how do you have generic chapters with no traits? And what's more I have spent the last year collecting the SCs, so basically WTF?
You can't take a chapter without traits. That was in the last blog post. Sorry.
That said, from what we have so far, two chapters can ally to each other. So you can have Salamanders, then take Calgar, his 3 squads of Honor Guard and a squad of Tact Marines as allies. They can't share rules or transports but you can bring both in the same army through your allied detachment.
You could also use the SC models as generic options too, as someone pointed out that Vulcan could very easily be a Captain in Artificer Armor with a Storm Shield and Relic Blade. Just make sure you tell your opponent.
This sounds genuinely aweful, not for the least that all my characters are Captains for my chapter (apart from.Lysander my CM). If this turns out to be truth, I may end up just keeping my old codex. Which means I can't play marines.
spamthulhu wrote: I Think you may be getting it a bit confused. If I play with the Ultramarine chapter tactics I can use ultra marine characters. It doesn't keep me from painting my army any color and calling them any damn thing I want. Calling my Marneus Calgar anything I want.
It only keeps me from running ultramarines chapter tactics and Cantor together. Or Cantor, with Telion. Or Vulkhan with Cantor etc... If I want to use Cantor I have to use the Imperial fists chapter tactics.
From what 40k Radio has claimed, characters are specific to the Chapters they hail from. Maybe this is an error, or misinterpretation of the rule, but it's all we got so far.
spamthulhu wrote: Now I can put together dark angels bikes in a bronze color scheme to go with all my other models and have a full wing of dark angels models that I can play as a dark angels list while still having a full contingent of tacticals and standard marine forces I play as a separate army when I want. I can even paint up space wolves models my chapter colors and play them as all one chapter if I like.
None of you can tell me how to play my army as long as I have models that properly represent what I am playing and the rules are all being used correctly.
Now we just have less two special character armies. Not like many ran both anyway. Especially since the abilities never worked with each other anyway.
Don't confuse discussing what is being stated as the rules from a source as us condemning your choice in playstyle and model choice. Right now we're missing key details on how those rules work, and we'll have to wait until the podcast to find out more.
Speaking of their pod cast, it actually looks like they decided to move it up. They'll be recording it this Saturday and it'll be available by Monday. I'll do my best to have it online as quick as I can after that. I go back to school Monday (yay college), but as it should be a download I'll be able to start working on it transcribing the rules that night.
Against sergeants sure or characters with AP3 weapons, sure. Against someone with 3+ wounds and a power fist.... you'll just die.
wait, you mean that a Sargent in a tac squad isn't going to be able to kill an HQ unit? or a specialized assault character?say it isn't so... my Sargent can't kill Mephiston!
Don't get me wrong, it may not be the best option for all of your Sargents, but there is a place for it.
I think that quote was in regards to the Emperor's Champion, which is an HQ, and the 40k Radio posts declared him to be a beast in challenges or something, which doesn't look like the case with only two wounds and 2 attacks.
Deadshot wrote: From my reading of the blog post, I am under the impression you can now only have special characters with your your chapter trait? Like I can't have Vulkan and Calgar? If that's how it is, how do you have generic chapters with no traits? And what's more I have spent the last year collecting the SCs, so basically WTF?
You can't take a chapter without traits. That was in the last blog post. Sorry.
That said, from what we have so far, two chapters can ally to each other. So you can have Salamanders, then take Calgar, his 3 squads of Honor Guard and a squad of Tact Marines as allies. They can't share rules or transports but you can bring both in the same army through your allied detachment.
You could also use the SC models as generic options too, as someone pointed out that Vulcan could very easily be a Captain in Artificer Armor with a Storm Shield and Relic Blade. Just make sure you tell your opponent.
This sounds genuinely aweful, not for the least that all my characters are Captains for my chapter (apart from.Lysander my CM). If this turns out to be truth, I may end up just keeping my old codex. Which means I can't play marines.
It's because of the new Chapter Traits. They chucked the old Combat Tactics out the window, gave us Chapter Traits and limited the SCs to armies that use those traits.
They MAY have gone as far as limiting SCs to armies that represent the actual chapters their from, but we haven't gotten the full rule from 40k Radio yet, just some partial "here's how it works" sort of answers which aren't the same thing.
Against sergeants sure or characters with AP3 weapons, sure. Against someone with 3+ wounds and a power fist.... you'll just die.
wait, you mean that a Sargent in a tac squad isn't going to be able to kill an HQ unit? or a specialized assault character?say it isn't so... my Sargent can't kill Mephiston!
Don't get me wrong, it may not be the best option for all of your Sargents, but there is a place for it.
I think that quote was in regards to the Emperor's Champion, which is an HQ, and the 40k Radio posts declared him to be a beast in challenges or something, which doesn't look like the case with only two wounds and 2 attacks.
spamthulhu wrote: I Think you may be getting it a bit confused. If I play with the Ultramarine chapter tactics I can use ultra marine characters. It doesn't keep me from painting my army any color and calling them any damn thing I want. Calling my Marneus Calgar anything I want.
It only keeps me from running ultramarines chapter tactics and Cantor together. Or Cantor, with Telion. Or Vulkhan with Cantor etc... If I want to use Cantor I have to use the Imperial fists chapter tactics.
From what 40k Radio has claimed, characters are specific to the Chapters they hail from. Maybe this is an error, or misinterpretation of the rule, but it's all we got so far.
spamthulhu wrote: Now I can put together dark angels bikes in a bronze color scheme to go with all my other models and have a full wing of dark angels models that I can play as a dark angels list while still having a full contingent of tacticals and standard marine forces I play as a separate army when I want. I can even paint up space wolves models my chapter colors and play them as all one chapter if I like.
None of you can tell me how to play my army as long as I have models that properly represent what I am playing and the rules are all being used correctly.
Now we just have less two special character armies. Not like many ran both anyway. Especially since the abilities never worked with each other anyway.
Don't confuse discussing what is being stated as the rules from a source as us condemning your choice in playstyle and model choice. Right now we're missing key details on how those rules work, and we'll have to wait until the podcast to find out more.
Speaking of their pod cast, it actually looks like they decided to move it up. They'll be recording it this Saturday and it'll be available by Monday. I'll do my best to have it online as quick as I can after that. I go back to school Monday (yay college), but as it should be a download I'll be able to start working on it transcribing the rules that night.
Even with what they stated in the podcast there has never been a rule put into print that has stated what color any army needed to be painted. All this rule will do is disrupt the mixing of two SC's in most armies. No one can use ultra marines tactics and Lysander because Lysander is better than Calgar. Now if you want to play Lysander you have to use IF traits and you can't use Kantor at the same time because he is CF and even though they use similar tactics they are different armies. You can play counts as with anything in the game. Hell I can go buy figures from a completely different company and as long as all the models are sensical and are properly armed then I can use the rules to play with them.
This is a hugely misguided leap of interpretation even for an internet forum. We just have new rules that disallow mixing. Not force paint schemes or names.
spamthulhu wrote: Even with what they stated in the podcast there has never been a rule put into print that has stated what color any army needed to be painted. All this rule will do is disrupt the mixing of two SC's in most armies. No one can use ultra marines tactics and Lysander because Lysander is better than Calgar. Now if you want to play Lysander you have to use IF traits and you can't use Cantor at the same time because he is CF and even though they use similar tactics they are different armies. You can play counts as with anything in the game. Hell I can go buy figures from a completely different company and as long as all the models are sensical and are properly armed then I can use the rules to play with them.
This is a hugely misguided leap of interpretation even for an internet forum. We just have new rules that disallow mixing. Not force paint schemes or names.
Before 5th Edition Imperial Guard there was never a FOC inside the FOC (Platoon rules). I think when it comes to GW nothing can really be ruled out.
I personally don't have any opinion either way on this. We'll find out more as we got, and maybe things will be clearer soon.
EDIT: And it's not a huge misguided leap as 40k Radio answered this question yesterday:
Q: To confirm then, successor chapters who use the same Chapter Tactics as their Parent Chapters can't use the SC of their parent chapter, even as a "Count-As"?
A: Can't use "Count-As" because those are specific to the parent chapter.
So don't go blaming the forum for using what we've been told.
Deadshot wrote: Again WTF? So basically I can currently take just 1 HQ? Because all mine are SC? Can I just not take a Trait?
AFAIK, you have to pick a Chapter Trait. If your SCs are all Ultramarine SCs, you're golden. If you normally take Tigurius + Lysander (or some other cross chapter options) then no. I mean, you still have all the generic HQ choices like Chapter Masters, Chaplains and the like. The limit is only on Special Characters.
I cannot expressed how annoyed I am by this design. The last codex was all about mixing characters as you wish, which I have done in entirety, but now its complete opposite and I hate it. I will guarentee that Iill either just play without them or not play marines, as I would need the old dex which the gaming store (a GW) won't allow.
Deadshot wrote: Again WTF? So basically I can currently take just 1 HQ? Because all mine are SC? Can I just not take a Trait?
AFAIK, you have to pick a Chapter Trait. If your SCs are all Ultramarine SCs, you're golden. If you normally take Tigurius + Lysander (or some other cross chapter options) then no. I mean, you still have all the generic HQ choices like Chapter Masters, Chaplains and the like. The limit is only on Special Characters.
I have Calgar, Kantor, Vulkan, Shrike, Lysander and Sicarius and was about to buy Cassius, Tiguirius and a Bike for Khan.
Deadshot wrote: I cannot expressed how annoyed I am by this design. The last codex was all about mixing characters as you wish, which I have done in entirety, but now its complete opposite and I hate it. I will guarentee that Iill either just play without them or not play marines, as I would need the old dex which the gaming store (a GW) won't allow.
Deadshot wrote: Again WTF? So basically I can currently take just 1 HQ? Because all mine are SC? Can I just not take a Trait?
AFAIK, you have to pick a Chapter Trait. If your SCs are all Ultramarine SCs, you're golden. If you normally take Tigurius + Lysander (or some other cross chapter options) then no. I mean, you still have all the generic HQ choices like Chapter Masters, Chaplains and the like. The limit is only on Special Characters.
I have Calgar, Kantor, Vulkan, Shrike, Lysander and Sicarius and was about to buy Cassius, Tiguirius and a Bike for Khan.
I guess I'm not understanding the issue.
In the current codex, if you have multiple special characters only one of them gets to keep their Chapter Tactics rule. If you have both Shrike and Vulcan, and you choose to use Vulcan's Chapter Tactics, even Shrike loses his version of Chapter Tactics and replaces it with Vulkan's. Have I been doing this wrong? Because I don't think I've been doing it wrong, I'm pretty sure the FAQ spells that out. Beyond their unique equipment (which can be pseudo recreated for normal chapter masters in many cases), and possibly a few special rules, this shouldn't be something that breaks an entire army.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SickSix wrote: I don't see this "no successor special characters" thing getting enforced outside an actual GW store.
Because its so insanely stupid.
Again, I think that's a bit of miscommunication. Successor chapters should have the same Chapter Tactics as their parent chapter, so there should be no reason that they can't take the parent chapter's special characters (who would have an identical version of Chapter Tactics).
Godless-Mimicry wrote: How is it stupid? The Chapters are being treated as separate armies. It is no different to how SW, BA, and DA can't mix SCs.
Because I can paint my army any way I want sit down with all the proper figures and just TELL you I am playing ultra marines when I am actually playing the jelly bean princess successor chapter.
As far as using sc's from different books, you could never do that before. But there are no restrictions in the Blood angels, space wolves, dark angels books that disallow you to use their special characters in successors. This would be an unprecedented change in the Space marine army books. Never have they made any effort to restrict SC's to their primary chapter ever.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: How is it stupid? The Chapters are being treated as separate armies. It is no different to how SW, BA, and DA can't mix SCs.
Oh, I am sorry I must have missed the part in my DA codex that says you can't field Asmodai or Belial in a Angels of Absolution, or Guardians of the Covenant army. Could you point that out to me?
Godless-Mimicry wrote: How is it stupid? The Chapters are being treated as separate armies. It is no different to how SW, BA, and DA can't mix SCs.
Because I can paint my army any way I want sit down with all the proper figures and just TELL you I am playing ultra marines when I am actually playing the jelly bean princess successor chapter.
As far as using sc's from different books, you could never do that before. But there are no restrictions in the Blood angels, space wolves, dark angels books that disallow you to use their special characters in successors. This would be an unprecedented change in the Space marine army books. Never have they made any effort to restrict SC's to their primary chapter ever.
Just because GW has never done something doesn't mean they can't or won't do it though.
EDIT: And because it looks like it was missed, this is not a miscommunication on the forum's part. Here's the Q&A from 40k Radio verbatim:
Q: To confirm then, successor chapters who use the same Chapter Tactics as their Parent Chapters can't use the SC of their parent chapter, even as a "Count-As"?
A: Can't use "Count-As" because those are specific to the parent chapter.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: How is it stupid? The Chapters are being treated as separate armies. It is no different to how SW, BA, and DA can't mix SCs.
Because I can paint my army any way I want sit down with all the proper figures and just TELL you I am playing ultra marines when I am actually playing the jelly bean princess successor chapter.
As far as using sc's from different books, you could never do that before. But there are no restrictions in the Blood angels, space wolves, dark angels books that disallow you to use their special characters in successors. This would be an unprecedented change in the Space marine army books. Never have they made any effort to restrict SC's to their primary chapter ever.
What has the colour of your models got to do with anything? You have saying this to several posters on this thread, but it really is irrelevant. The Chapter Tactics rule has nothing to do with the colours of your models.
As for the SC change, just because it is unprecedented doesn't mean it is stupid automatically. They are treating the Chapters the same way they treat separate armies, and the mechanic for how separate armies are treated is not unprecedented, the only thing unprecendented here is how they have been given to us, i.e. all in one book.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: How is it stupid? The Chapters are being treated as separate armies. It is no different to how SW, BA, and DA can't mix SCs.
Oh, I am sorry I must have missed the part in my DA codex that says you can't field Asmodai or Belial in a Angels of Absolution, or Guardians of the Covenant army. Could you point that out to me?
Sorry what? Your argument is that you can take two DA characters, two characters that are in the same chapter, in a DA army, which represents one chapter. How is that in any way contradictory to my post? I am saying Blood Angels can't take Space Wolves SCs for instance, or Dark Angels can't take Blood Angels SCs, because they are not the same chapter. This is no different to what is being done with the Chapters in the new Codex: Space Marines.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: How is it stupid? The Chapters are being treated as separate armies. It is no different to how SW, BA, and DA can't mix SCs.
Because I can paint my army any way I want sit down with all the proper figures and just TELL you I am playing ultra marines when I am actually playing the jelly bean princess successor chapter.
As far as using sc's from different books, you could never do that before. But there are no restrictions in the Blood angels, space wolves, dark angels books that disallow you to use their special characters in successors. This would be an unprecedented change in the Space marine army books. Never have they made any effort to restrict SC's to their primary chapter ever.
Just because GW has never done something doesn't mean they can't or won't do it though.
EDIT: And because it looks like it was missed, this is not a miscommunication on the forum's part. Here's the Q&A from 40k Radio verbatim:
Q: To confirm then, successor chapters who use the same Chapter Tactics as their Parent Chapters can't use the SC of their parent chapter, even as a "Count-As"?
A: Can't use "Count-As" because those are specific to the parent chapter.
Would be easy to clear up if someone would ask them if there is a rule in the book that requires someone to paint thier Ultramarines Blue in order for them to be Ultramarines. I think that is what it is coming down too. I might paint them red and say they are Ultramarines.
Deadshot wrote: From my reading of the blog post, I am under the impression you can now only have special characters with your your chapter trait? Like I can't have Vulkan and Calgar? If that's how it is, how do you have generic chapters with no traits? And what's more I have spent the last year collecting the SCs, so basically WTF?
It sounds like when you make your list, you pick a Chapter Tactic. You can then take any special characters that also have that particular Chapter Tactic.
So if you make a chapter "The Emperor's Merkin", you would take "Chapter Tactics (Iron Hands)". You could then take any special characters that have Chapter Tactics (Iron Ha-... whoops! THERE ARE NONE...
(sorry Iron Hands players).
@GW SON OF A BITCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH..........!!!!!!!!
Godless-Mimicry wrote: How is it stupid? The Chapters are being treated as separate armies. It is no different to how SW, BA, and DA can't mix SCs.
Because I can paint my army any way I want sit down with all the proper figures and just TELL you I am playing ultra marines when I am actually playing the jelly bean princess successor chapter.
As far as using sc's from different books, you could never do that before. But there are no restrictions in the Blood angels, space wolves, dark angels books that disallow you to use their special characters in successors. This would be an unprecedented change in the Space marine army books. Never have they made any effort to restrict SC's to their primary chapter ever.
What has the colour of your models got to do with anything? You have saying this to several posters on this thread, but it really is irrelevant. The Chapter Tactics rule has nothing to do with the colours of your models.
As for the SC change, just because it is unprecedented doesn't mean it is stupid automatically. They are treating the Chapters the same way they treat separate armies, and the mechanic for how separate armies are treated is not unprecedented, the only thing unprecendented here is how they have been given to us, i.e. all in one book.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: How is it stupid? The Chapters are being treated as separate armies. It is no different to how SW, BA, and DA can't mix SCs.
Oh, I am sorry I must have missed the part in my DA codex that says you can't field Asmodai or Belial in a Angels of Absolution, or Guardians of the Covenant army. Could you point that out to me?
Sorry what? Your argument is that you can take two DA characters, two characters that are in the same chapter, in a DA army, which represents one chapter. How is that in any way contradictory to my post? I am saying Blood Angels can't take Space Wolves SCs for instance, or Dark Angels can't take Blood Angels SCs, because they are not the same chapter. This is no different to what is being done with the Chapters in the new Codex: Space Marines.
You apparently failed actually reading my posts. What part of successor did you not get? You have never been able to mix SC of different codex. You were also never restricted from using BA, SW, UM, or DA characters in a SUCCESSOR chapter using the rules from whatever parent chapter codex.
That is what 40k radio is now saying. That you CANNOT use parent chapter SC in SUCCESSOR chapters, EVEN IF you are using the parent chapters Chapter Traits. How is that not insanely stupid?
Godless-Mimicry wrote: How is it stupid? The Chapters are being treated as separate armies. It is no different to how SW, BA, and DA can't mix SCs.
Because I can paint my army any way I want sit down with all the proper figures and just TELL you I am playing ultra marines when I am actually playing the jelly bean princess successor chapter.
As far as using sc's from different books, you could never do that before. But there are no restrictions in the Blood angels, space wolves, dark angels books that disallow you to use their special characters in successors. This would be an unprecedented change in the Space marine army books. Never have they made any effort to restrict SC's to their primary chapter ever.
Just because GW has never done something doesn't mean they can't or won't do it though.
EDIT: And because it looks like it was missed, this is not a miscommunication on the forum's part. Here's the Q&A from 40k Radio verbatim:
Q: To confirm then, successor chapters who use the same Chapter Tactics as their Parent Chapters can't use the SC of their parent chapter, even as a "Count-As"?
A: Can't use "Count-As" because those are specific to the parent chapter.
Would be easy to clear up if someone would ask them if there is a rule in the book that requires someone to paint thier Ultramarines Blue in order for them to be Ultramarines. I think that is what it is coming down too. I might paint them red and say they are Ultramarines.
Someone did. We're waiting for a response. When I asked for the verbatim rule they said to wait for the podcast.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: How is it stupid? The Chapters are being treated as separate armies. It is no different to how SW, BA, and DA can't mix SCs.
Because I can paint my army any way I want sit down with all the proper figures and just TELL you I am playing ultra marines when I am actually playing the jelly bean princess successor chapter.
As far as using sc's from different books, you could never do that before. But there are no restrictions in the Blood angels, space wolves, dark angels books that disallow you to use their special characters in successors. This would be an unprecedented change in the Space marine army books. Never have they made any effort to restrict SC's to their primary chapter ever.
What has the colour of your models got to do with anything? You have saying this to several posters on this thread, but it really is irrelevant. The Chapter Tactics rule has nothing to do with the colours of your models.
As for the SC change, just because it is unprecedented doesn't mean it is stupid automatically. They are treating the Chapters the same way they treat separate armies, and the mechanic for how separate armies are treated is not unprecedented, the only thing unprecendented here is how they have been given to us, i.e. all in one book.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: How is it stupid? The Chapters are being treated as separate armies. It is no different to how SW, BA, and DA can't mix SCs.
Oh, I am sorry I must have missed the part in my DA codex that says you can't field Asmodai or Belial in a Angels of Absolution, or Guardians of the Covenant army. Could you point that out to me?
Sorry what? Your argument is that you can take two DA characters, two characters that are in the same chapter, in a DA army, which represents one chapter. How is that in any way contradictory to my post? I am saying Blood Angels can't take Space Wolves SCs for instance, or Dark Angels can't take Blood Angels SCs, because they are not the same chapter. This is no different to what is being done with the Chapters in the new Codex: Space Marines.
You apparently failed actually reading my posts. What part of successor did you not get? You have never been able to mix SC of different codex. You were also never restricted from using BA, SW, UM, or DA characters in a SUCCESSOR chapter using the rules from whatever parent chapter codex.
That is what 40k radio is now saying. That you CANNOT use parent chapter SC in SUCCESSOR chapters, EVEN IF you are using the parent chapters Chapter Traits. How is that not insanely stupid?
Sorry I did indeed misread your initial post.
But going on from there, there is no practical way for that to take place. You just say you are using the actually Chapter, plain and simple. If the whole successor chapter thing is accurate (and I wouldn't bet on it too much since it contradicts something else 40k radio said previously), it is just another case of GW writing in something without thinking about the logical outcome of that scenario. In the end, having your Marines red doesn't make them not Ultramarines as far as the game is concerned. You have written an Ultramarines list and selected the Ultramarines tactics, so short of the book actually saying you need to have blue models (which I reckon is highly unlikely) then there shouldn't be a problem; the models have never truly dictated much in this game.
I will give it to you though, in the highly unlikely event that the book came out and it did in fact say your models need to be blue to be Ultramarines, then that would be insanely stupid.
SickSix wrote:You apparently failed actually reading my posts. What part of successor did you not get? You have never been able to mix SC of different codex. You were also never restricted from using BA, SW, UM, or DA characters in a SUCCESSOR chapter using the rules from whatever parent chapter codex.
That is what 40k radio is now saying. That you CANNOT use parent chapter SC in SUCCESSOR chapters, EVEN IF you are using the parent chapters Chapter Traits. How is that not insanely stupid?
What 40k Radio said was this...
Q: Can child chapters take the SCs of their parent chapters?
A: No (those are unique to their chapter)
I think this is more about taking Black Templar/Crimson Fist characters with Imperial Fists than it is about taking Calgar along with your Doom Eagles. Do you think there's really going to be a rule saying 'This special character can only be unlocked by your strict and unvarying adherence to the following paint scheme and background story...'?
I don't see Games Workshop possibly saying "You has to be Ultramarines to take these characters!"
That just seems unlikely for them, given the history of how they've done everything else in the past.
Limiting SCs to armies using that chapter trait makes sense. Saying people "have to play "X" specific chapter to use "X" character would be a break from everything they've ever done, ever.
Sweet crap, if the rules for imperial fists are as rumored, it would be broken.
Some have said the tank hunters is for their heavy support only. Even so imagine the sickness of 3x devastator squads, all with missile launchers. str 8 flakk, str 9 against tanks? yes please. If its army wide, its going to be the most broken thing ever. Terminators with str 9 cyclones, or even str 7 assault cannons against light vehicles? Str 10 lascannons on land raiders, effectively making them 2 man broadside teams minus the ap 1 from 5th?
Im not even trying hard to find something broken, im sure there are worse examples I could give, maybe the centurions. But imagine just using 3 devastator squads with missile launchers, and all the versatility they would then bring. About the only thing that's not a huge improvement over is tyranid flying creatures. In all other aspects their point value just skyrocketed (pun intended!)
SickSix wrote:You apparently failed actually reading my posts. What part of successor did you not get? You have never been able to mix SC of different codex. You were also never restricted from using BA, SW, UM, or DA characters in a SUCCESSOR chapter using the rules from whatever parent chapter codex.
That is what 40k radio is now saying. That you CANNOT use parent chapter SC in SUCCESSOR chapters, EVEN IF you are using the parent chapters Chapter Traits. How is that not insanely stupid?
What 40k Radio said was this...
Q: Can child chapters take the SCs of their parent chapters?
A: No (those are unique to their chapter)
I think this is more about taking Black Templar/Crimson Fist characters with Imperial Fists than it is about taking Calgar along with your Doom Eagles. Do you think there's really going to be a rule saying 'This special character can only be unlocked by your strict and unvarying adherence to the following paint scheme and background story...'?
I hope you are correct, I hope 40k Radio just misinterpreted the question, BUT this is GW we are talking about. Maybe they aren't selling enough Ultramarines Blue paint...
There has been, like, 5 pages of misunderstanding about this. I'd rather get back to reading Chaos players gripe than keeping hearing people claim that you couldn't use Vulkan if your Salamanders were painted orange or Tigurius if your Ultramarines were painted grey.
Firstly, of course you can. Don't be obtuse.
Secondly, how do you suspect this would be enforced? I am currently painting an Ultramarine army, but I am not using the official GW paint scheme. If my blue's aren't exactly matching the Codex, would you bar me from using Cato Sicarius?
Yellow, black, and white can all be very challenging colors to paint. Should a poorly painted Black Templars army be precluded from using Helbrecht? I imagine you would say "Sorry mate, those lads are more grey than black, I think. Nice try, though"?
OF COURSE NOT. GW will not make such a rule and frankly, I'm disappointed in the critical thinking ability of anybody who thinks they would. It's embarrassing.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: How is it stupid? The Chapters are being treated as separate armies. It is no different to how SW, BA, and DA can't mix SCs.
I think there's a massive difference.
I'm find it ok that Salamanders can't take Tigurius for example (2 different Chapter-LINES).
However I would find it idiotic for say Salamanders-successor-chapter (Black Dragons?) to not be able to take Vulkan.
It's the same as saying that you can't take a "counts-as Mephiston" for the Fleshtearers. I see DA, SW, and BA as "lines" of chapters, with their respective codices focusing on the founding chapters (duh).
But lets take a look at other armies: Imperial Guard or Tau or Eldar.
Do we really have to take the very special snowflake Regiment/Cadre/Craftworld, and paint the modles in the very specific colors just to take a special character?
This would be nonsense.
Instead of giving players a "set" with which to perhaps build semi-unique characters and chapters of their own, they take away even more customization and leave us with "wargear"... because a Captain with a Plasma Pistol is "special".
P.S.: Yes I registered just so I could vent my anger and frustration
This is starting to become painful, lets see if we can break it down. Choosing ultramarines as your chapter tactic means you can have Sicarius, Calgar, Tigurius, Cassius, Chronus and/or Telion in your primary FOC. You can paint your models neon pink, as long as the chapter tactics and the appropriately matching special characters are a match. CT+SC have to equal CT+SC. They don't need colors to match. It means you can't make a successor chapter that has Vulkan "count-as" an Ultramarine captain without using an allied group, that's all. GW cannot limit your paint scheme. If you want Tigurius and Vulkan, you pick Ultramarines as your primary, and Salamanders as your single ally. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.
Also, when I said it makes my head hurt, it's not directed at anyone: it's the state of rumors that are partials and missing a key word in just the right location. But I'm willing to put money down, how I just explained it is what it'll be in the book: CT+SC=CT+SC. No matter the color. It's the names and tactics that decide.
Orock wrote: Sweet crap, if the rules for imperial fists are as rumored, it would be broken.
Some have said the tank hunters is for their heavy support only. Even so imagine the sickness of 3x devastator squads, all with missile launchers. str 8 flakk, str 9 against tanks? yes please. If its army wide, its going to be the most broken thing ever. Terminators with str 9 cyclones, or even str 7 assault cannons against light vehicles? Str 10 lascannons on land raiders, effectively making them 2 man broadside teams minus the ap 1 from 5th?
Im not even trying hard to find something broken, im sure there are worse examples I could give, maybe the centurions. But imagine just using 3 devastator squads with missile launchers, and all the versatility they would then bring. About the only thing that's not a huge improvement over is tyranid flying creatures. In all other aspects their point value just skyrocketed (pun intended!)
That was what Tank Hunters did in 5th ed. Now, it gives a re-roll on armor penetration.
SickSix wrote:You apparently failed actually reading my posts. What part of successor did you not get? You have never been able to mix SC of different codex. You were also never restricted from using BA, SW, UM, or DA characters in a SUCCESSOR chapter using the rules from whatever parent chapter codex.
That is what 40k radio is now saying. That you CANNOT use parent chapter SC in SUCCESSOR chapters, EVEN IF you are using the parent chapters Chapter Traits. How is that not insanely stupid?
What 40k Radio said was this...
Q: Can child chapters take the SCs of their parent chapters?
A: No (those are unique to their chapter)
I think this is more about taking Black Templar/Crimson Fist characters with Imperial Fists than it is about taking Calgar along with your Doom Eagles. Do you think there's really going to be a rule saying 'This special character can only be unlocked by your strict and unvarying adherence to the following paint scheme and background story...'?
BT are a Child Chapter of IF
Clearly BT cannot take Lysander
CF are a child chapter of IF
I think this is to address that Lysander and Pedro cannot be in the same army without allies.
I do not believe that Doom Eagles will be prevented from taking Calgar because there is no way to say that your Doom Eagles aren't ultramarines. If you are playing your homebrew successor chapter, it has no rules. You have to use the rules for some chapter that actually has rules like Ultramarines and thus you can take all the options Ultramarines have.
Orock wrote: Sweet crap, if the rules for imperial fists are as rumored, it would be broken.
Some have said the tank hunters is for their heavy support only. Even so imagine the sickness of 3x devastator squads, all with missile launchers. str 8 flakk, str 9 against tanks? yes please. If its army wide, its going to be the most broken thing ever. Terminators with str 9 cyclones, or even str 7 assault cannons against light vehicles? Str 10 lascannons on land raiders, effectively making them 2 man broadside teams minus the ap 1 from 5th?
Im not even trying hard to find something broken, im sure there are worse examples I could give, maybe the centurions. But imagine just using 3 devastator squads with missile launchers, and all the versatility they would then bring. About the only thing that's not a huge improvement over is tyranid flying creatures. In all other aspects their point value just skyrocketed (pun intended!)
That was what Tank Hunters did in 5th ed. Now, it gives a re-roll on armor penetration.
Yeah, there's no way they give Tank Hunters to Devs with 5th rules. S9 MLs all over the place would have ended everything on the board that wasn't AV14 reaaaaaaaaaaaal darn quick.
Still, rerolls are pretty sick, and frankly I like that more. Sure, S9 is nice against AV12, but my luck is so bad I'm liable to roll 1-3s all the time, so getting that reroll for lower AVs is great.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: How is it stupid? The Chapters are being treated as separate armies. It is no different to how SW, BA, and DA can't mix SCs.
I think there's a massive difference.
I'm find it ok that Salamanders can't take Tigurius for example (2 different Chapter-LINES).
However I would find it idiotic for say Salamanders-successor-chapter (Black Dragons?) to not be able to take Vulkan.
It's the same as saying that you can't take a "counts-as Mephiston" for the Fleshtearers. I see DA, SW, and BA as "lines" of chapters, with their respective codices focusing on the founding chapters (duh).
But lets take a look at other armies: Imperial Guard or Tau or Eldar.
Do we really have to take the very special snowflake Regiment/Cadre/Craftworld, and paint the modles in the very specific colors just to take a special character?
This would be nonsense.
Instead of giving players a "set" with which to perhaps build semi-unique characters and chapters of their own, they take away even more customization and leave us with "wargear"... because a Captain with a Plasma Pistol is "special".
P.S.: Yes I registered just so I could vent my anger and frustration
As we have since established (right at the top of this page), I had initially misunderstood the poster's message. You are a little behind in the conversation
If you are playing your homebrew successor chapter, it has no rules. You have to use the rules for some chapter that actually has rules like Ultramarines and thus you can take all the options Ultramarines have.
This is what I was getting at. I play Red Hunters because I like the backstory and color scheme. That being said, Red Hunters don't have any official rules, they are literally just story and color. So I decided to run Salamanders rules and units, just with the Red Hunters color scheme and model design.
TBD wrote: Perhaps I am mistaken, but based on that Q&A it sounds like Salamanders/Vulkan just got a downgrade from last codex.
Do we know yet if pre-orders will go up this weekend or the next weekend?
Next weekend.
As for Sallies, with Vulkan in the army you have traded MC Thunder Hammers for one MC weapon per character. The Chapter themselves TL Flamers which you previously needed Vulkan for, and Vulkan still TLs Meltas. On top however they re-roll saves against Flamers. Seems to me they got better.
If you are playing your homebrew successor chapter, it has no rules. You have to use the rules for some chapter that actually has rules like Ultramarines and thus you can take all the options Ultramarines have.
This is what I was getting at. I play Red Hunters because I like the backstory and color scheme. That being said, Red Hunters don't have any official rules, they are literally just story and color. So I decided to run Salamanders rules and units, just with the Red Hunters color scheme and model design.
And this should be totally, 100% ok if I'm interpreting correctly. You pick Sallies as your CT, you get access to Vulkan. You don't get access to Tigurius without using your ally slot.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: It could be the folk are underestimating how 'Special' the special characters are meant to be
Lysander (for example is unique), a one of a kind, special. There is only one of him
so you shouldn't be able to put a lookie-likey into a homebrew chapter
instead customise a generic HQ with war-gear, write a story for them and always use that set up
it may not be as good as some of the named special characters, but it will be better than others)
(your opinions may vary)
I don't think that there's a misunderstanding at all. Everyone understands that, according to the fluff, special characters are unique.
However, on the gaming table, they are nothing more than models representing collections of statistics and special rules. The colors painted onto the model are irrelevant in that context. So are their names, the chapter iconography on the decals, and so on. What's important is that it's clear to opponents which codex is being used and which options from that codex are being represented by which models.
"My chapter is the Emperor's Warhounds of War. Their chapter colors are orange and pink and the sergeants wear giant Spartan crests on their helmets. But I'm using Ultramarines rules, and that boss-looking dude chewing an orc skull while ripping apart a genestealer is Ezekiel "Howling Fury" McWargod the God of Wars, Battles, and most Barroom Brawls. He counts as Marneus Calgar." For a lot of people, myself included, that sort of thing is no big deal. It's a legitimate way to play.
Even if the paint thing is actually in the Codex, it won't be enforced.
In the 2004 Codex (the original one with Traits) named Chapters were required to stick to pre-set Trait combinations given in the codex while homebrew Chapters were allowed to mix and match. And nobody bat an eye when a first founding Chapter player used non-standard Traits.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: How is it stupid? The Chapters are being treated as separate armies. It is no different to how SW, BA, and DA can't mix SCs.
I think there's a massive difference.
I'm find it ok that Salamanders can't take Tigurius for example (2 different Chapter-LINES).
However I would find it idiotic for say Salamanders-successor-chapter (Black Dragons?) to not be able to take Vulkan.
It's the same as saying that you can't take a "counts-as Mephiston" for the Fleshtearers. I see DA, SW, and BA as "lines" of chapters, with their respective codices focusing on the founding chapters (duh).
But lets take a look at other armies: Imperial Guard or Tau or Eldar.
Do we really have to take the very special snowflake Regiment/Cadre/Craftworld, and paint the modles in the very specific colors just to take a special character?
This would be nonsense.
Instead of giving players a "set" with which to perhaps build semi-unique characters and chapters of their own, they take away even more customization and leave us with "wargear"... because a Captain with a Plasma Pistol is "special".
P.S.: Yes I registered just so I could vent my anger and frustration
As we have since established (right at the top of this page), I had initially misunderstood the poster's message. You are a little behind in the conversation
^^ I actually read most of this thread (over many a day) up until the last posts. I just wanted to give this particular dead horse another kick since I think it deserves it I'm still a bit disappointed we don't get some kind of "lego"-system to customize our characters (Think 4th ed. C:SM).
Special characters could still have stayed special. But a few select goodies to play around with and give an army an extra bit of flavor or a twist would be great. What we now get is cookie-cutter Marines.
Granted the cookies come in 7 exiting colors, but what about Red Scorpions with their "Sergeant-Apothecaries" or other Chapters that deviate from their founding one? The same could be applied to most codices. Aside from choosing wargear and actual units to field there should be minor feats, traits, differences... whatever to give "my" army some spice.
edit: I think some players who use "counts-as" SC's don't want the specific character but ANY character that is different from the "standard" one. I know I do.
I do wish that GW would allow us to build our own special characters, but the problem at this point is we're 5 codices into the edition, and creating a system like that would be unfair to the other 6th ed codices.
Not to mention, the codices near the end of the update cycle would be frustrated.
Precedent sort of dictates that this doesn't happen, unless it's at the start of a cycle.
Then again SM is getting that whole CT thing, which has no real 6th ed. precedent, so maybe they would do something like that with characters.
DogofWar1 wrote: I do wish that GW would allow us to build our own special characters, but the problem at this point is we're 5 codices into the edition, and creating a system like that would be unfair to the other 6th ed codices.
Just take a normal HQ guy, give him a name and some wargear other than the min/max gak that everyone always takes, and you have someone pretty special.
steelshark83 wrote: I'm still a bit disappointed we don't get some kind of "lego"-system to customize our characters (Think 4th ed. C:SM).
Special characters could still have stayed special. But a few select goodies to play around with and give an army an extra bit of flavor or a twist would be great. What we now get is cookie-cutter Marines.
Granted the cookies come in 7 exiting colors, but what about Red Scorpions with their "Sergeant-Apothecaries" or other Chapters that deviate from their founding one? The same could be applied to most codices. Aside from choosing wargear and actual units to field there should be minor feats, traits, differences... whatever to give "my" army some spice.
edit: I think some players who use "counts-as" SC's don't want the specific character but ANY character that is different from the "standard" one. I know I do.
Red Scorpions are a bad example, since they'll likely get rules including their own chapter tactics from FW.
DogofWar1 wrote: I do wish that GW would allow us to build our own special characters, but the problem at this point is we're 5 codices into the edition, and creating a system like that would be unfair to the other 6th ed codices.
Just take a normal HQ guy, give him a name and some wargear other than the min/max gak that everyone always takes, and you have someone pretty special.
I meant with more special rules, closer to what SCs get than what you can get through normal HQs.
In 5th Ed., there was no way to get Bolter Drill except through Lysander, or Fleet for a unit except through Shrike. It would be nice, especially now that you have the walls between chapters and SCs. It's not a huge deal, but when you want to go beyond vanilla wargear you're pretty much out of luck if you don't go with an SC.
The biggest problem, IMO will be with psykers. Will we have access to Mastery Level 3 psykers aside from Tigurius, or just Mastery Level 2? In 5th, if you wanted to hit three powers a turn you had to go with SC Tigur, and if they don't allow you to upgrade to ML3 on regular libbies, then you might not have access to them. That might be the biggest wall getting put up, in that any non-UM army might not have access to Mastery Level 3 psykers.
I guess the argument could be made that ML3 psykers are less often found in the Imperium compared to Chaos and Eldar, but it's still a likely frustrating wall.
DogofWar1 wrote: I do wish that GW would allow us to build our own special characters, but the problem at this point is we're 5 codices into the edition, and creating a system like that would be unfair to the other 6th ed codices.
Just take a normal HQ guy, give him a name and some wargear other than the min/max gak that everyone always takes, and you have someone pretty special.
I meant with more special rules, closer to what SCs get than what you can get through normal HQs.
In 5th Ed., there was no way to get Bolter Drill except through Lysander, or Fleet for a unit except through Shrike. It would be nice, especially now that you have the walls between chapters and SCs. It's not a huge deal, but when you want to go beyond vanilla wargear you're pretty much out of luck if you don't go with an SC.
The biggest problem, IMO will be with psykers. Will we have access to Mastery Level 3 psykers aside from Tigurius, or just Mastery Level 2? In 5th, if you wanted to hit three powers a turn you had to go with SC Tigur, and if they don't allow you to upgrade to ML3 on regular libbies, then you might not have access to them. That might be the biggest wall getting put up, in that any non-UM army might not have access to Mastery Level 3 psykers.
I guess the argument could be made that ML3 psykers are less often found in the Imperium compared to Chaos and Eldar, but it's still a likely frustrating wall.
Deadshot wrote: I doesn't break my entire army, just prevents me taking more tjan 1 of my HQs at a time, as I have no generics.
Then take the non-generic model, and make a chapter master/libby/etc that has his same wargear and say "This model is a generic chaplain for this battle."
The difference with Ezekial/DAs being that the entire codex has access to a ML3 psyker, where as many armies chosen out of C:SM will not if a standard libby can't upgrade. And, honestly, I think that will be the case. If so, that would be a bit of a shame, but the bigger shame will be that only Ultramarines (based on what we currently know) will have any access to Divination. Ther could be some wargear or abilities as yet unknown that change that, but cutting off large swathes of the codex from the best powers, yet still allowing a small segment to get them, would be very unfortunate.
Exergy wrote:[BT are a Child Chapter of IF
Clearly BT cannot take Lysander
CF are a child chapter of IF
I think this is to address that Lysander and Pedro cannot be in the same army without allies.
I do not believe that Doom Eagles will be prevented from taking Calgar because there is no way to say that your Doom Eagles aren't ultramarines. If you are playing your homebrew successor chapter, it has no rules. You have to use the rules for some chapter that actually has rules like Ultramarines and thus you can take all the options Ultramarines have.
+1 This. Come on people. Really?! Some of you think I have to play blue ultramarines to use SC but I can't play Iron Snakes and use Calgar?! What is wrong with DakkaDakka?!.
tomjoad wrote:...GW will not make such a rule and frankly, I'm disappointed in the critical thinking ability of anybody who thinks they would. It's embarrassing.
