I looked for a previous thread about this, and if there is one that I just couldn't find please refer me to it.
Anyways, simple question, when was the Decree of Nikaea repealed? I know that Space Wolves, in their hypocrisy, never got rid of their psykers, nor did the 1k Sons. It seems like most everyone else did though. So when did they let their psykers be librarians again?
AFAIK a repeal was never mentioned. But with the outbreak of the Horus Heresy it became clear that they could not keep to the decree. Some HH novels describe former librarians using their powers to help. Afterwards its mostly acccepted that it had to be done to achieve victory. In one of the HH series Malcador even grants a former librarian permission to use his powers again. When the HH series reaches Terra it will probably become a lot clearer, since both sides will throw everything they got into this battle. Its likely that the loyalists will employ their librarians again as the Thousand Sons were present. Their formidable powers alone should need some counter larger than on Prospero (dont think the siege will be very forgiving on anything less than Astartes).
I believe in Know No Fear, Guilliman has already decreed that the council had hamstrung the Ultramarines' abilities to combat the forces of Chaos during the war on Calth, and had made a note to have it repealed after the battle.
It's likely that, when he assumed the position of Lord Commander post-heresy, he abolished the laws against the use of psykers.
Phiasco II wrote: I looked for a previous thread about this, and if there is one that I just couldn't find please refer me to it.
Here you go:
Manchu wrote: That is a great mystery yet to be unveiled. I suppose at the latest, the Edict was "softened" when Guilliman promulgated Codex Astartes since he obviously directs Chapters to train and deploy Librarians. Whether he had the Emperor's assent/approval is unknown. There are some who argue that the difference between the pre-Codex and Codex Librarians was so great that the Edict does not really contemplate Codex Librarians. This seems rather weak to me. The other piece of the puzzle is that the SW obviously still used psykers after the Edict, even at the burning of Propsero. My own interpretation is that the Edict was basically a judgment against what Magnus was doing even if the Emperor said he wasn't censuring anybody in particular. His explicit command, at least in A Thousand Sons was that no Legion would maintain a Librarius Department. According to the strict letter of the Edict, therefore, whether a Codex Chapter might do so was not actually decided since Codex Chapters did not then exist except in Guilliman's mind. Some people use this as evidence for Guilliman being disloyal but that seems weak to me, as well. This is also probably how Russ could get away with still deploying psykers since he didn't seem to maintain a "Librarius Department." We have no evidence that Russ was disloyal or that the Emperor knew/cared about SW psykers.
The Emperor wrote:Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
A Thousand Sons, p. 355, my emphasis
Again, the letter of the law is that no Legion can have a Libarius department and everyone who was in such a department may no longer use psychic powers.
So RAW, (1) whether a Chapter can have a Librarius depatment is not covered and (2) psykers who were not formerly part of such departments are not covered.
You think Guilliman would have overlooked this? The only way to violate this post-Codex is if Space Marines formerly part of the Legion Librarius department were reinstated to the Chapter Librarius department or otherwise used psychic powers. So all Guilliman needed to do was recruit new psykers for his Chapter Librarius department.
In this way, the Edict need never have been amended or violated to get us to the situation of M42 -- even regarding the founding of the Grey Knights by Malcador (unless one of his recruits was formerly a part of a Legion's Libarius department and used psychic powers while a Grey Knight). So we may already have the answer without need of further revelations. Of course, that doesn't mean there are no further revelations to come; it just means there are not necessarily contradictions (that I am aware of) that require further revelations to explain them away.
Phiasco II wrote: I know that Space Wolves, in their hypocrisy, never got rid of their psykers...
They're not heathen sorcerers, they're shamans
At least that's what they say
Amongst other things - YES
RP are doing runecrafting and are recruiting (selecting) new members + they control the Wulfen.... and they are not librarians...psykers ofc they are, but filthy sorceres with deamons as their pets HELL NO....
They also fought side by side with Custodians and SoS, so what's your take on that?
There must be a fundamental difference between a Psyker and a Shaman. After all, the big E is a whole lot of Shaman and his powers were never considered sourcerous!
Well there isn't (they both bend the warp) and there is (control)...thats the beauty
I'm gonna post this again
Spoiler:
What I especially admire,’ said the Thousand Sons Equerry, ‘is your hypocrisy. You hound us and harass us over our so-called sorcery, yet you do not shrink from using it, shaman.’
‘There is a vast gulf between what I employ for the good of the Rout and what you practise, warlock,’ Helwintr replied, ‘and the chief part of that gulf is control. Only the naive would think that mankind could survive in the cosmos without some measure of craft and cunning to protect him, but there is a limit. A limit. We must know what we can master and what we cannot, and we must never allow ourselves to step beyond that line. Tell me, how many steps have you taken? One? Three? A dozen? A thousand?’
Like @Omegus said - they are both right and wrong in the same way...
SW - "way of Feris" is hypocritical, but the fact is, their usage of warp is 100% different from a TS
So a shaman is simply more educated or schooled into knowing what powers can be controlled and what boundaries there are when using their powers. Psykers have no desire to hold back and therefore can't be trusted.
Well I don't know if I go that far....but there is a distinction in usage certainly....
But also warping is warping, so hypocrisy still stands even though I'm a wolf man....
Mellow wrote: Psykers have no desire to hold back and therefore can't be trusted.
Yeah, you're on the right track. A sanctioned psyker (including SM librarians) are defined by their self-imposed limitations. A sorcerer would transgress any boundary if he could and it suited his ends. Magnus and at least part of his legion clearly fell into the second category.
I think the new fluff makes better sense. The old fluff implies that the Legions were familiar with Chaos. In the HH series, that is definitely not the case. The Legions are initially ignorant of Chaos -- especially Magnus, who seemingly does not put two and two together regarding the flesh change. In Thousand Sons, the Emperor refuses to speak of sorcery in his decree -- which is the open crux of the matter in the old fluff.
It can't be like that in the HH series because sorcery is itself merely a suspicion. Magnus does not see his pursuits as any different, generally speaking, from the crucial role played by astropaths and navigators. Moreover, he thinks Russ's attitude is ignorant and superstitious (I'd like to hear him account for Mortarion's objections, however). The whole tension of the Heresy revolves on the point of naïve idealism. Even Horus originally justified his betrayal by claiming to save the Great Crusade from the Emperor.
The old fluff is best looked at as history written sometime long after the HH by someone without "all the facts."
RP are doing runecrafting and are recruiting (selecting) new members + they control the Wulfen.... and they are not librarians...psykers ofc they are, but filthy sorceres with deamons as their pets HELL NO....
They also fought side by side with Custodians and SoS, so what's your take on that?
Know who else were not "filthy sorcerers with daemons as their pets"?
Every librarian who was not a Thousand Son, as far as we can see.
The Librarian in the Garro series is just a psyker, as was Zahariel from the DA series (Well, before he became a daemonhost lol), as is that Librarian in Fear to Tread.
The Rune Priests just happen to think that only they have the right to employ psychic powers in the legion, because... I'm not actually sure why exactly. Regardless, they are certainly hypocrites, and in typical Space Wolf faction arrogant, condescending hypocrites at that.
Let's not have another thread descend into Thousand Sons vs. Space Wolves, eh?
I've always found it interesting that Corax was one of the advocates for Nikaea, despite being a psyker (moreso than many primarchs at least), himself.
Manchu wrote: The Legions are initially ignorant of Chaos -- especially Magnus, who seemingly does not put two and two together regarding the flesh change.
This is patently false.
“The curse of assumed knowledge is a challenge all enlightened individuals face,” said Magnus, softening his tone. “We must remember that we
once walked in their shoes and were blind to the truths of the universe. Even I knew nothing of the Great Ocean until my father revealed its glory to
me.”
“No,” whispered Ahriman with sudden, instinctive clarity. “You already knew of it. When the Emperor showed you its wonders and dangers you
feigned not to know, but you had already peered into its depths [b]and seen them.]/b]”
Magnus, more than any Primarch, knew that something terrible, ancient, and powerful lurked in the Warp, and he hid this fact from everyone.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Dave wrote: Let's not have another thread descend into Thousand Sons vs. Space Wolves, eh?
I've always found it interesting that Corax was one of the advocates for Nikaea, despite being a psyker (moreso than many primarchs at least), himself.
The thread is about Nikaea, and there was Space Wolf bashing in the OP. It was inevitable.
Corax doesn't actually seem to realize that he is a psyker. Because he's an idiot I guess?
Just Dave wrote: Let's not have another thread descend into Thousand Sons vs. Space Wolves, eh?
If nothing else, the constant need for fans of each to pick at the other on this particular issue does a great job of obscuring what might have really been at stake at Nikaea. I don't think the Emperor was that worried Magnus would disobey him. I think he was more worried about the Primarchs finding out about Chaos.
Void__Dragon wrote: “No,” whispered Ahriman with sudden, instinctive clarity. “You already knew of it. When the Emperor showed you its wonders and dangers you feigned not to know, but you had already peered into its depths and seen them.”
Magnus, more than any Primarch, knew that something terrible, ancient, and powerful lurked in the Warp, and he hid this fact from everyone.
First, how does Ahriman know? "Sudden instinctive clarity" does not sound trustworthy in any of its many senses. Second, Magnus clearly knew there was some intelligence in the Warp; that is not the same thing as knowing about Chaos (i.e., you are making the same mistake that Magnus seemed to make on this score). Third, even taking your point that Magnus "knew," well, then he pretended not to know for the sake of his own vain desires.
Ahriman knows because just a short while ago he was accidentally exposed to the totality of Magnus's knowledge, in a lapse of concentration on Magnus's part lol.
Also, he knew Chaos by name. The "Primordial Annihilator". Currently looking for this passage, but can't find atm.
In The First Heretic, Magnus is also clearly hiding something from a distraught Lorgar, and in his pity, does tell Lorgar that the only thing he'll find on his quest to the Warp will be suffering.
And Lorgar's entire beef with Magnus in Aurelian is that Magnus was aware of the truth of Chaos, but refused to act on it.
I wouldn't say they were vain desires that caused him to hide it. He seemed more than anything terrified of what would happen were the truth to get out of how he saved his legion, and of what consequences making that deal with Tzeentch would eventually have.
Though I may just be saying what you said in a way that makes my favorite Primarch look better.
Void__Dragon wrote: Though I may just be saying what you said in a way that makes my favorite Primarch look better.
As you well know, he's also my favorite. Although that's never been contingent on him being right about anything. And indeed, everything I know about Magnus (which I'll admit is far from complete because I haven't even read more than a couple of the recent HH books/short stories) points to him being wrong about basically everything.
It's funny, coincidental, whatever because I just read the passage of the Emperor's ruling last night as I'm going back through Thousand Sons (HH book)!
I didn't know about the previous history concerning Nikaea (I'm referring to the post that Alph made), but I like this bit of revision, if that's what we'll call it.
I think Manchu has part of it in that the Emperor didn't want the other Primarchs to know about what lurks in the Warp.
I think the other shoe is that he was worried they'd find out too soon, that is to say, before he completed his golden throne project. With the Throne completed and Magnus sitting upon it, Magnus could not only be the conduit for the navigators to travel by, but he could also have become someone that could watch out for warp storms. He could potential prevent rifts from occurring, releasing Daemons on the Emperor's people. He could protect mankind from knowing about Daemons completely and (seemingly) utterly. Having the Librarians running around would be a two-fold problem.
1. They could find out about the Daemons/Chaos/Primordian creator and tell the Primarchs that didn't know.
2. They could accidentally create rifts in the warp and serve as conduits (directly or indirectly) for Daemons to enter realspace and "muck about!"
He may have eventually relented on the ruling, but not until the Crusades were complete AND Magnus as safely on the golden throne.
Giving the Emperor the benefit of the doubt here but if he had managed to succeed in installing Magnus on the Golden Throne and opening the WebWay to humanity, one wonders what need there would be for librarians at all.
Many times it is pointed out in the series that the Decree of Nikaea hamstringed the Imperium's capacity to fight beings who do use the Immaterium.
Also, I probably should have read a little further, for that quote I posted.
“I did what I had to,” snapped Magnus, forestalling any further words. “That is all you need to know. Trust me, Ahzek, what was done was done for
the right reasons.”
Ahriman wanted to believe that, he needed to believe it, but there was no disguising the vanity and obsession that lay behind the secret bargain.
He sought to pierce the shrouds and veils of self-justification and perceive the dark secret that lay beyond, but Magnus plucked the stolen memory
from his mind.
Void__Dragon wrote: Though I may just be saying what you said in a way that makes my favorite Primarch look better.
As you well know, he's also my favorite. Although that's never been contingent on him being right about anything. And indeed, everything I know about Magnus (which I'll admit is far from complete because I haven't even read more than a couple of the recent HH books/short stories) points to him being wrong about basically everything.
Manchu wrote: Giving the Emperor the benefit of the doubt here but if he had managed to succeed in installing Magnus on the Golden Throne and opening the WebWay to humanity, one wonders what need there would be for librarians at all.
Yeah, you would still need to kill daemons. But you can do that without psychic powers (i.e., BT -- Space Marines who are arguably still organized as a Legion and fanatically follow the Nikaea Edit) or with non-SM psykers in a support role.
You have me at a disadvantage, what list? I remember saying this about Corax:
Manchu wrote: Also, I think Corax was perhaps the most trustworthy Primarch.
Manchu wrote: Among all the Primarchs, only two or three seem to have any understanding of humility and compassion -- and one of them is Corax. How anyone would see him as an obvious traitor is beyond me.
Void__Dragon wrote: [
The Rune Priests just happen to think that only they have the right to employ psychic powers in the legion, because THEY HAVE MORE CONTROL and THEY WEREN'T A PART OF LIBRARIUS PROGRAM and THEY DIDN'T HAVE A MARK OF TZEENCH ON THEIR BACKS... .
FTFY
Also they attained their rank (which is essential in the SW), but I didn't see them throw lighning balls on Prospero...
Who came up with the idea of the Libararius Department? Was that Magnus? Did other Legions follow his example there? If so, that makes the wording of the Edict make a lot of sense.
Manchu wrote: Who came up with the idea of the Libararius Department? Was that Magnus? Did other Legions follow his example there? If so, that makes the wording of the Edict make a lot of sense.
I really wonder about this point. Like I said, if the idea of the Librarius was invented by Magnus alone or in large part, then the Emperor may have meant exactly what he said: that the crux issue was indeed the Librarius and not, as per the old fluff, the distinction between sanctioned psykers and sorcerers.
C'mon Nikaea wasn't about librarians, it was a trial of "Magnus the red" ...also I'm not distincting RP from librarians, only TS - who didn't know their limits (insert Tzeench mojo)....
DarthMarko wrote: C'mon Nikaea wasn't about librarians, it was a trial of "Magnus the red"
The Emperor explicitly said otherwise. That it would be a trial of Magnus is what Magnus himself and the other Primarchs believed. But the Emperor refused to distinguish between sanctioned psykers and sorcerers -- again, explicitly for the sake of unity. He shifted the issue entirely, making it about the structure of the SM Legions. According to the Edict, the Legions were not to maintain Librarius departments any longer and those who had been a part of them were to never employ psychic powers again. If that is a judgment of Magnus, it is only to the extent that Magnus came up with the Librarius structure.
DarthMarko wrote: C'mon Nikaea wasn't about librarians, it was a trial of "Magnus the red"
The Emperor explicitly said otherwise. That it would be a trial of Magnus is what Magnus himself and the other Primarchs believed. But the Emperor refused to distinguish between sanctioned psykers and sorcerers -- again, explicitly for the sake of unity. He shifted the issue entirely, making it about the structure of the SM Legions. According to the Edict, the Legions were not to maintain Librarius departments any longer and those who had been a part of them were to never employ psychic powers again. If that is a judgment of Magnus, it is only to the extent that Magnus came up with the Librarius structure.
Well the book tells me otherwise....It's from the TS perspective, but Mcneill mentions it in "tAE" too...
History would recall this assembly as the Council of Nikaea.
Others would know it as the trial of Magnus the Red.
Alpharius wrote: I can't help but think the only 'explanation' we're going to get in the end is "Damn but the Emperor made a stupid mistake there, didn't he?"
I think we often underestimate how important this Council was.
First, it was either the last public act of the Emperor before "retiring" to Terra or it was the only thing that pulled the Emperor away from his "retirement" work. Either way, the Emperor clearly thought this was a huge deal.
Second, it was the first major fracture between the Primarchs. Luckily, despite his many gifts, Magnus was not very likable -- otherwise this could have turned into the Magnus Heresy instead of the HH.
Interpreting the Emperor's own words, he saw the Council as a crisis of unity. Mortarion might have had concerns about psychic powers generally but Russ was certainly suspicious (and rightly so!) of Magnus personally.
What is interesting is what was not said: The Emperor did not simply explain that the Ruinous Powers tempt and bend and break incautious psykers. In the old fluff, you have some kind of proto-Inquisition testifying about the horrors of Chaos. That concept is totally foreign to the Primarchs in the HH series (except to Magnus, to the extent already discussed -- and possibly also Mortarion). But Russ had a strong suspicion. People talk about Magnus's foresight but it was Russ who was right all along -- not least of all because both men acted according to a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Narratively speaking, the kind of knowledge of Chaos presumed by the old fluff just doesn't make sense. If such knowledge was so commonplace as to be openly discussed, one would certainly wonder how the HH happened in the first place other than with some one-dimensional mustache twirling.
Once you take that knowledge off the table, Nikaea becomes much more interesting: the judge and the defendant know about Chaos (the former to a far more specific degree than the latter) -- but ironically the prosecution is in the dark. They don't fully understand the very charge they are leveling at Magnus and Magnus pretends that he doesn't either when in fact he knows (or rather should know) even better than them the danger his actions pose.
But that's Magnus for you: utterly, devastatingly arrogant.
Should the Emperor have imprisoned Magnus at that point then? I mean, he presumably knew the real score even better than Magnus. I think he couldn't do it at that point, specifically because the Golden Throne was not near completion at that point (remember, that's the reason the Emperor went into retirement). What cell could hold Magnus, other than the Golden Throne? And if the Emperor tried to do so before the Throne was ready, keeping Magnus prisoner would likely be so distracting as to indefinitely delay the Throne's completion.
The Emperor needed unity among his sons if only for just a little longer.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarthMarko wrote: Others would know it as the trial of Magnus the Red.
And who are those others? The TS? The SW? Of course they would -- they considered it to be such before it began. The Emperor himself made it otherwise. We need not choose between the words of historians or "others" in this matter. As readers, the facts unfolded before us. We "saw and heard" exactly what the Emperor of Mankind said at that Council -- namely that no one would be censured, that his judgment was organizational, that those who defined this judgment would be his enemy. If there is any trial, it is the trial of obeying the Edict.
Also they attained their rank (which is essential in the SW), but I didn't see them throw lighning balls on Prospero...
Othere Wyrdmake at the very least was using his powers to track down Ahriman, and did not hesitate to do psychic battle with them. Also, Othere continues to deny that what he does draws from the Warp, he doesn't think of himself as a psyker.
Oh, and Helwinter was using his psychic powers to try and banish the daemon on Propsero, the Horus thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: I really wonder about this point. Like I said, if the idea of the Librarius was invented by Magnus alone or in large part, then the Emperor may have meant exactly what he said: that the crux issue was indeed the Librarius and not, as per the old fluff, the distinction between sanctioned psykers and sorcerers.
The Librarius department was developed by Magnus, Sanguinius, and the Khan.
What excludes the Rune Priests from the problem, as opposed to the Librarians?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarthMarko wrote: C'mon Nikaea wasn't about librarians, it was a trial of "Magnus the red" ...also I'm not distincting RP from librarians, only TS - who didn't know their limits (insert Tzeench mojo)....
Okay. That's nice I guess.
I am not comparing the RP to the Thousand Sons, only the Librarians of other Legions, making your response to me peculiar in that it attacks a point I never made.
I personally suspect part of the reason the Space Wolves were allowed to keep psykers about (e.g. working alongside the Custodes; although still maybe not with the Emperor's sanction) is because of their role as a tool/weapon, and psykers being a very handy tool/weapon themselves.
Also a couple of other relevant points people haven't mentioned:
- With Nikaea and the Webway, the Emperor was also reducing humanities exposure to the warp.
- Alpharius/Omegon also knew of Chaos, and that the Emperor was wholeheartedly against it.
Just Dave wrote: I personally suspect part of the reason the Space Wolves were allowed to keep psykers about (e.g. working alongside the Custodes; although still maybe not with the Emperor's sanction) is because of their role as a tool/weapon, and psykers being a very handy tool/weapon themselves.
The words of the Edict do not forbid what the SW did. The SW require no special dispensation because nothing they are doing is covered in the first place.
Just Dave wrote: I personally suspect part of the reason the Space Wolves were allowed to keep psykers about (e.g. working alongside the Custodes; although still maybe not with the Emperor's sanction) is because of their role as a tool/weapon, and psykers being a very handy tool/weapon themselves.
The words of the Edict do not forbid what the SW did. The SW require no special dispensation because nothing they are doing is covered in the first place.
True as well (and not being trained by Magnus as you said). I liked your point about the Chapter/Legion distinction before: I'd never looked at it that way/RAW!
Yeah, I don't know if that's what Mr. McNeill intended -- whether he had this deep kind of debate that we constantly have on this topic (much less whether he had a lawyerly point of view on the issue) but it seems to me that the Emperor would have chosen his words very, very carefully -- and meant every one of them in an exact sense.
Also they attained their rank (which is essential in the SW), but I didn't see them throw lighning balls on Prospero...
Othere Wyrdmake at the very least was using his powers to track down Ahriman, and did not hesitate to do psychic battle with them. Also, Othere continues to deny that what he does draws from the Warp, he doesn't think of himself as a psyker.
No he didn't (on both accounts),
Spoiler:
“I can see the aether inside you, Rune Priest,” he hissed with the last of his strength. “You are just like me, and one day those you serve will turn on you too.”
“I almost pity your delusion,” said Wyrdmake, shaking his head, “almost.”
Wyrdmake stood to his full height and waved more of the warriors with flame-weapons forward. Ankhu Anen heard the whoosh of streaming jets of fire destroying a hundred lifetimes worth of knowledge, and tears gathered in the corners of his eyes.
“You will tell me one thing before you die,” said Wyrdmake. “You will tell me where I can find the star-cunning one called Ahzek Ahriman.”
Manchu wrote: First, it was either the last public act of the Emperor before "retiring" to Terra or it was the only thing that pulled the Emperor away from his "retirement" work. Either way, the Emperor clearly thought this was a huge deal.
Well it sort of was, and the Decree had serious consequences throughout the Heresy. Notably, the Heresy was much harder to combat because of it.
Second, it was the first major fracture between the Primarchs. Luckily, despite his many gifts, Magnus was not very likable -- otherwise this could have turned into the Magnus Heresy instead of the HH.
I would have sort of agreed, but recent information is making Magnus seem oddly popular among some of his brothers. Lorgar and Perturabo consider him their favorite brother, Sanguinius seems to like and respect him, and presumably the Khan did as well.
Interpreting the Emperor's own words, he saw the Council as a crisis of unity. Mortarion might have had concerns about psychic powers generally but Russ was certainly suspicious (and rightly so!) of Magnus personally.
‘Magnus is terribly
misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close
to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he
would never have toppled over the brink without this violent
provocation.'
I personally believe this, I don't think Magnus would have fallen had it not been for the razing of Prospero (Which I don't really blame the Wolves for, it was directly engineered by a Chaos God, after all).
What is interesting is what was not said: The Emperor did not simply explain that the Ruinous Powers tempt and bend and break incautious psykers. In the old fluff, you have some kind of proto-Inquisition testifying about the horrors of Chaos. That concept is totally foreign to the Primarchs in the HH series (except to Magnus, to the extent already discussed -- and possibly also Mortarion). But Russ had a strong suspicion. People talk about Magnus's foresight but it was Russ who was right all along -- not least of all because both men acted according to a self-fulfilling prophecy.
What was Russ right about?
Narratively speaking, the kind of knowledge of Chaos presumed by the old fluff just doesn't make sense. If such knowledge was so commonplace as to be openly discussed, one would certainly wonder how the HH happened in the first place other than with some one-dimensional mustache twirling.
I agree, making Chaos something either totally unknown in most cases, or something known but not wholly understood in Magnus's case, made the heresy more believable.
Once you take that knowledge off the table, Nikaea becomes much more interesting: the judge and the defendant know about Chaos (the former to a far more specific degree than the latter) -- but ironically the prosecution is in the dark. They don't fully understand the very charge they are leveling at Magnus and Magnus pretends that he doesn't either when in fact he knows even better than them the danger his actions pose.
But that's Magnus for you: utterly, devastatingly arrogant.
Should the Emperor have imprisoned Magnus at that point then? I mean, he presumably knew the real score even better than Magnus. I think he couldn't do it at that point, specifically because the Golden Throne was not near completion at that point (remember, that's the reason the Emperor went into retirement). What cell could hold Magnus, other than the Golden Throne? And if the Emperor tried to do so before the Throne was ready, keeping Magnus prisoner would likely be so distracting as to indefinitely delay the Throne's completion.
The Emperor needed unity among his sons if only for just a little longer.
He could have taken him to Terra, or at least told him of the Webway gate, that alone would have stopped Magnus from blowing a hole in Terra. Killing him is of course out of the question, he needs him for the Golden Throne.
“I can see the aether inside you, Rune Priest,” he hissed with the last of his strength. “You are just like me, and one day those you serve will turn on you too.”
“I almost pity your delusion,” said Wyrdmake, shaking his head, “almost.”
Wyrdmake stood to his full height and waved more of the warriors with flame-weapons forward. Ankhu Anen heard the whoosh of streaming jets of fire destroying a hundred lifetimes worth of knowledge, and tears gathered in the corners of his eyes.
“You will tell me one thing before you die,” said Wyrdmake. “You will tell me where I can find the star-cunning one called Ahzek Ahriman.”
Lulz.
"No sooner had he quelled his powers than he sensed a ghostly presence probing the aether around him, a questing tendril that spoke of another
mind seeking his. Ahriman felt the primitive cunning of a hunter, the patience and animal circling that spoke of long years spent on the frozen tundra
with nothing to warm the flesh but fur torn from the still warm corpse of native prey-beasts.
It took no great skill to recognise the presence, for he had swum the Great Ocean with this seeker. Ohthere Wyrdmake was hunting him, and
Ahriman allowed his aetheric presence to bleed into the air, psychic spoor to draw the Rune Priest to him."
" “Warlock,” spat Wyrdmake.
“Is that all you have for me, old friend?” asked Ahriman, folding his arms. “Insults?”
“I have sought you this day,” said Wyrdmake.
“I know, I felt your clumsy pursuit. A Neophyte of Prospero could have sensed you. How did you acquire my psychic trace?”
“Your brother in the library gave you up,” said Wyrdmake triumphantly.
Ahriman laughed.
“Is that what you think happened?” he asked. “If Ankhu Anen did so, it was because he wanted you to find me. He knew I would kill you if you did.”
“I think not,” said Wyrdmake, a golden staff appearing in his hands.
Ahriman shook his head and the staff exploded into shards of fading light.
“In this place, in this realm, do you really think we will fight like that?” "
Notice how he tried to conjure his staff. And he did proceed to have a psychic battle with him.
And...
" “I am nothing like you,” he snarled. “My power comes from the natural cycle of birth and death of Fenris. I am a Son of the Storm. I am nothing like
you.”
“And yet you are not on Fenris,” said Ahriman. “We call it by different names, but the power you use to call the storm and split the earth is the
same power I use to scry the future and shape the destiny of my Legion.”
“Is this all you have for me?” snapped Wyrdmake. “Lies? I can believe nothing you say.” "
So yeah, he believes his power fundamentally is from a different source.
Lorgar didn't like Magnus and Magnus didn't like Lorgar (Mcneill) - faith vs science...In "aTS" Magnus mocks Lorgar calling him Urizon with a jesting tone.....
Lorgar likes Magnus after heresy broke (ADB)
On Perturabo I agree.....
Also Russ was 10000 % right, maybe not about RP, but concerning Magnus and his taint, and fall of Prospero and Magnus saved by the Tzeench vindicate him...
DarthMarko wrote: Lorgar didn't like Magnus and Magnus didn't like Lorgar (Mcneill) - faith vs science...In "aTS" Magnus mocks Lorgar calling him Urizon with a jesting tone.....
Lorgar likes Magnus after heresy broke (ADB)
You got those completely backwards.
Lorgar and Magnus were very close friends, being the two scholarly Primarchs who both dealt in the metaphysical. Magnus teased Lorgar, certainly, but in their relationship he was the "wiser older brother" who offered his "lost, wayward little brother" counsel and advice.
After the Heresy, Lorgar is angry/contemptuous with Magnus for having discouraged him from pursuing "the Primordial truth", as well as wilfully blinding himself to its reality. Magnus is too filled with doubt and regret to have an opinion one way or the other, although he is shocked by the depth of Lorgar's bitterness.
Void__Dragon wrote: recent information is making Magnus seem oddly popular among some of his brothers. Lorgar and Perturabo consider him their favorite brother, Sanguinius seems to like and respect him, and presumably the Khan did as well.
Lorgar was ... shall we say, inconstant. Perturabo also had major self-esteem issues. I can't speak to the details because I apparently have not read the sources. Sanguinius seemed to like and respect all of his brothers and to have been alone in the respect. The Khan is at this point inscrutable. And, ask yourself, even if Lorgar and Perturabo did love Magnus, would they have followed him like they did Horus?
Void__Dragon wrote: I don't think Magnus would have fallen had it not been for the razing of Prospero
I disagree. With Magnus, it was only a matter of time. If not the burning of Prospero, then the flesh change. He would have found a rationalization, an excuse, to do what he desired one way or another. The only thing that could save Magnus from his eventual fate was the Golden Throne.
That Magnus was already, in the sense of folded time, a slave to Chaos. He knew this like a dog knows the way home; not based on rational argument and fact but on what we might call "scent." This "scent" is the ironic corralary to Magnus's "sight." I posted in-depth on Magnus's sight/blindness here:
daveNYC wrote: I'm also not sure how you're managing to reconcile Magnus having free will with the statement that he was always going to fall to Chaos. If free will doesn't allow you to chose to avoid damnation then it's not nearly all it's cracked up to be.
Fair warning, this is going to get really complicated.
Magnus was free to avoid his fate just as much as he wasn't free to do so. Free will is a harder thing to exercise than you seem to think. There was no single point where Magnus was presented with: "Do you want to fall to Chaos? YES/NO." Rather, his fall unfolded over time. Perhaps a better way to put it, to avoid the confusion of linear-biased language, is that his corruption emerged out of time.
The word "fall" implies an endpoint on a timeline. Linear time is not a helpful way to analyze Magnus, except inasmuch as he was blinded to the truth by an overly linear conception of time. But if we were to plot a timeline of his "fall", we can locate three main points: (1) his pact with "something in the Warp" to halt the flesh change of the Thousand Sons, (2) his decision to violate the Edict of Nikaea, (3) him calling out to that same "something in the Warp" for deliverance as he lost to Russ. Now, and this is the hard part, imagine the line of the timeline folded back on itself so that each of the three points overlap, becoming the same point. I think that's a little closer to the Tzeentchian POV and the best way to take into account Magnus's "free will."
What I'm trying to accomplish by folding the timeline like this is to show that exercising free will is not merely "historical" in the linear sense. Our decisions are conditioned not only by our will and motivation but also by their consequences -- and not only are the consequences obscure but also the motivations. This is a key aspect to Magnus's personality symbolized by him being a "cyclops." Magnus has one eye, the eye that looks to the future. Although his eyesight is far superior to that of almost all humanity, it is still lacking and especially because he himself lacks the eye that looks to the past. Magnus's concern is always with what will be rather than what has gone before: what will befall my Legion in the wake of the flesh change, what will befall the Imperium in the wake of Horus's treachery, what will befall humanity in the wake of the Council of Nikaea?
For Tzeentch, a being of the Warp, the future and past and present are coterminous, like our folded timeline. For Tzeentch, the "moment" of its pact with Magnus is also the "moment" of its salvation of the Thousand Sons from the Space Wolves -- except, of course, that I'm using the word "moment" in a purely metaphorical way, as our conception of linear time doesn't literally apply to the Warp. Magnus is blind to the coterminous aspect of these "historical" points because he is obsessed with his ability to shape the future according to his will through the power of his mind. The best way that I can put it is, Magnus does not perceive that he is falling; he only perceives that he has not fallen yet. Tzeentch, and the Emperor to some extent, can see him as he is becoming. I suppose you can liken it to the relationship between an acorn and a tree. When Tzeentch looks at an acorn in realspace, it sees the nut and the sapling and the tree and the mulch all at once. It's not that Tzeentch "knows the future" -- which is the secret power that Magnus wants so badly. Rather, Tzeentch perceives all possibility and transformation.
Despite all his study, one-eyed Magnus failed to cultivate this ability and so did not accurately understand his peril. He did not understand how the pact he made to save his Legion was the acorn to the the tree of his corruption -- or who knows it might have gone further back than that. All Magnus's knowledge was in fact ignorance. Could he have averted his corruption? Yes -- but it's so hard that it doesn't look "free" in the superficial sense. This is what I meant earlier by saying, Magnus could have avoided damnation by ceasing to be Magnus. Magnus was doomed to fall; but had he completely reformed his personality, completely changed his point of view, he might have noticed the danger. That still means that "Magnus was doomed to fall." The man who averted his fall would no longer be Magnus.
And here we have the ultimate irony, the Tzeentchian pièce de résistance. The thing that could have saved Magnus, in a word, was change.
Void__Dragon wrote: He could have taken him to Terra, or at least told him of the Webway gate, that alone would have stopped Magnus from blowing a hole in Terra. Killing him is of course out of the question, he needs him for the Golden Throne.
I've thought through those possibilities -- but of course such thinking relies on speculation. Would Magnus have gone willingly to the Golden Throne? It is difficult to say, considering we don't know what that would cost him. But I think it is unlikely that Magnus could not have guessed his fate, his eventual enthronement, if he had any of those crucial pieces of information. He may be arrogant but he is also a genius beyond mortal comprehension. Following that logic through, I would conclude that Magnus would not likely go willingly to the Throne. And therefore it was the purpose of the SW all along to bring him, him specifically -- not, as if often said, any traitorous Primarch. That would also explain why Russ had smelled Magnus out, so to speak. It is what Russ was designed to do, just as Magnus was designed to sit the Golden Throne.
DarthMarko wrote: Lorgar didn't like Magnus and Magnus didn't like Lorgar (Mcneill) - faith vs science...In "aTS" Magnus mocks Lorgar calling him Urizon with a jesting tone.....
Lorgar likes Magnus after heresy broke (ADB)
On Perturabo I agree.....
“This is not the rime for such debate. Two of my dearest brothers are at each other’s throats, and it grieves
me to know how this shall disappoint our father.'
- Lorgar
In The First Heretic, Lorgar considered Magnus his closest brother before the Heresy broke out, lol.
When did Magnus mock Lorgar?
“And the Urizen?” asked Magnus, using the Word Bearers devotional name for their primarch. “Is he also ready to strike?”
“Do not call him that,” said Leman Russ. “His name is Lorgar.”
“Why do you dislike that name so much?”
“I don’t know,” said Russ. “Do I need a reason?”
“No, I was simply curious.”
“Not everything needs an explanation, Magnus,” said Russ. “Some things just are. Now gather your warriors, it is time to finish this.”
DarthMarko wrote: Lorgar didn't like Magnus and Magnus didn't like Lorgar (Mcneill) - faith vs science...In "aTS" Magnus mocks Lorgar calling him Urizon with a jesting tone.....
Lorgar likes Magnus after heresy broke (ADB)
You got those completely backwards.
Lorgar and Magnus were very close friends, being the two scholarly Primarchs who both dealt in the metaphysical. Magnus teased Lorgar, certainly, but in their relationship he was the "wiser older brother" who offered his "lost, wayward little brother" counsel and advice.
After the Heresy, Lorgar is angry/contemptuous with Magnus for having discouraged him from pursuing "the Primordial truth", as well as wilfully blinding himself to its reality. Magnus is too filled with doubt and regret to have an opinion one way or the other, although he is shocked by the depth of Lorgar's bitterness.
Hm, I still don't see it...Magnus is a scholar who still doesn't belive in CG (kudos for that), but chaos brainwashed Lorgar is like on the opposite side...
But I'm still enjoying their bickering, but they are not close friends like with Perturabo....
It actually makes some sense, considering Leman Russ, along with Magnus, spoke out against Lorgar's censure, if you recall. One of the few who did.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarthMarko wrote: Hm, I still don't see it...Magnus is a scholar who still doesn't belive in CG (kudos for that), but chaos brainwashed Lorgar is like on the opposite side...
But I'm still enjoying their bickering, but they are not close friends like with Perturabo....
Don't see what?
That Lorgar considered Magnus his closest brother is an absolute fact, this can't be debated since it was constantly shown and stated throughout The First Heretic.
I suspect Lorgar's comment of "dearest brothers" was just peace-keeping, I could see no reason he'd be particularly close to Russ. But The First Heretic did a good job of showing Magnus and Lorgar's closeness.
Void__Dragon wrote: It actually makes some sense, considering Leman Russ, along with Magnus, spoke out against Lorgar's censure, if you recall. One of the few who did.
Still, it is difficult to imagine the Wolf King stomaching Lorgar. On what grounds did Russ object to his censuring? Man, I feel like I didn't read The First Heretic at all -- I really need to re-read that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Dave wrote: I suspect Lorgar's comment of "dearest brothers" was just peace-keeping
Yes, this makes perfect sense to me -- it's exactly the kind of overblown language Lorgar seems fond of using.
Just Dave wrote: I suspect Lorgar's comment of "dearest brothers" was just peace-keeping, I could see no reason he'd be particularly close to Russ. But The First Heretic did a good job of showing Magnus and Lorgar's closeness.
Actually Magnus was mocking Lorgar in front of Russ and Russ stops him....(Shrike)
Like I said this is Mcneil portrayal, the other is ADB-s....
Magnus and Lorgar friendship stops the moment Magnus tells a bad joke about Gods...
Void__Dragon wrote: It actually makes some sense, considering Leman Russ, along with Magnus, spoke out against Lorgar's censure, if you recall. One of the few who did.
Still, it is difficult to imagine the Wolf King stomaching Lorgar. On what grounds did Russ object to his censuring? Man, I feel like I didn't read The First Heretic at all -- I really need to re-read that.
IIRC it was basically cause he didn't want to lose a brother (again), rather than any overt affection.
Manchu wrote: Lorgar was ... shall we say, inconstant. Perturabo also had major self-esteem issues. I can't speak to the details because I apparently have not read the sources. Sanguinius seemed to like and respect all of his brothers and to have been alone in the respect. The Khan is at this point inscrutable. And, ask yourself, even if Lorgar and Perturabo did love Magnus, would they have followed him like they did Horus?
Lorgar was consistent before the Heresy of his respect and admiration for Magnus. Seriously, his total fangirling over him in Aurelian almost begins to rival Kasper Hawser's love letter to the Space Wolves that make up Prospero Burns' third act.
I myself have not read Angel Exterminatus, and this information is second-hand, but I consider my source a reliable one.
Sanguinius did indeed seem to like most of his bros.
The Khan is just a guess, but his creation of the Librarius department with Magnus, and the fact that it was indeed the Chief Librarian of the White Scars who spoke for Magnus's sake at Nikaea inclines me to believe such.
Your question, as pertaining to Lorgar, is sort of inaccurate. Lorgar didn't "follow" Magnus. It was the Word Bearers who conspired to make Horus fall and use him as the face of the Horus Heresy, and indeed, Lorgar has taken it upon himself to work behind the scenes, making his brothers (Huge spoiler alert)
Spoiler:
Turn into Daemon Princes before the battle of Terra.
As for Perturabo, probably. That Horus was the leader of the Heresy was incidental. He had his own reasons for turning.
I disagree. With Magnus, it was only a matter of time. If not the burning of Prospero, then the flesh change. He would have found a rationalization, an excuse, to do what he desired one way or another. The only thing that could save Magnus from his eventual fate was the Golden Throne.
Which he would be sitting on if the razing of Prospero did not occur, lol.
And the Webway itself would have been fine if a lot of bad gak didn't go down, all directly part of a plan by Tzeentch.
That Magnus was already, in the sense of folded time, a slave to Chaos. He knew this like a dog knows the way home; not based on rational argument and fact but on what we might call "scent." This "scent" is the ironic corralary to Magnus's "sight." I posted in-depth on Magnus's sight/blindness here:
Of course Magnus was always in the thrall of Chaos, Tzeentch never had any "doubt", if such a term can be applied to a Chaos God, of that, because it had already made it occur (And in my personal headcannon, I like to imagine that when Magnus bartered with Tzeentch and lost his eye, rather than just losing it, history was changed to make it as though there was never an eye to begin with, and he had always been a Cyclops.). I'd wager only the Emperor (Due to his power in the Warp) and the Necrons/C'tan are the only beings in the galaxy immune to Tzeentch's power over causality and fate. In a way, Leman Russ was also nothing more than a pawn of Tzeentch, being used as a tool to deliver his most powerful servant to him.
I've thought through those possibilities -- but of course such thinking relies on speculation. Would Magnus have gone willingly to the Golden Throne? It is difficult to say, considering we don't know what that would cost him. But I think it is unlikely that Magnus could not have guessed his fate, his eventual enthronement, if he had any of those crucial pieces of information. He may be arrogant but he is also a genius beyond mortal comprehension. Following that logic through, I would conclude that Magnus would not likely go willingly to the Throne. And therefore it was the purpose of the SW all along to bring him, him specifically -- not, as if often said, any traitorous Primarch. That would also explain why Russ had smelled Magnus out, so to speak. It is what Russ was designed to do, just as Magnus was designed to sit the Golden Throne.
I'd say yes, he certainly would, frankly.
Magnus made a total psychic connection with the Emperor, and was horrified that he deprived himself of the chance to lead humanity to a golden age atop the Golden Throne (Hur).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarthMarko wrote: Actually Magnus was mocking Lorgar in front of Russ and Russ stops him....(Shrike)
Like I said this is Mcneil portrayal, the other is ADB-s....
Magnus and Lorgar friendship stops the moment Magnus tells a bad joke about Gods...
Magnus never mocked him on Shrike. I've already proven this to be the case. You are giving Magnus motivations that are never even alluded to in the story.
Russ just told him not to call him that, because he dislikes the name for reasons even he can't explain.
Nowhere does Magnus insult or mock Lorgar in A Thousand Sons.
It needs to be noted, that Magnus was losing his strength on his flight to Terra and without a help from that benevolent spirit....well *insert his fate*....
Void__Dragon wrote: I like to imagine that when Magnus bartered with Tzeentch and lost his eye, rather than just losing it, history was changed to make it as though there was never an eye to begin with, and he had always been a Cyclops.
I think you are/should be right on this score. It has interesting impliciations on another:
Void__Dragon wrote: Magnus made a total psychic connection with the Emperor, and was horrified that he deprived himself of the chance to lead humanity to a golden age atop the Golden Throne
His horror was as contingent as the loss of his eye. That is, Magnus was only one-eyed to the extent that he bargained with Tzeentch; but in so doing, he was always the Cyclops. Similarly, he appears to have always had the values that make him regret not mounting the Throne -- but only as a matter of all the choices he made up to that point. The only Magnus that could regret was the one that fell. The only Magnus that could fall was the one that would regret it. It's a pity that Magnus did not talk more with Konrad; then he might have sharpened his ability, like what you (and now I) speculate to be his father's ability, to see time.
If you read that spoilered post of mine, I have thought for a long time that Magnus lacked an ability to "see time" but I think the way you've put it, where contingency appears to be determinism depending on chronological perspective, is the best way to talk about Magnus's "disability," so aptly symbolized by his one-eyedness.
The idea that Horus's leadership was incidental struck me as totally off at first, given that so much is made of Horus's charisma across so many sources, but it does make sense inasmuch as his actual fall, as depicted by McNeill, revealed him to be a rather shallow, maybe even imbecilic thinker. Also, his leadership in practice seems to rely more on presumption than any actual skill. Horus has not yet been presented as living up to his legend, IMO.
He could have taken him to Terra, or at least told him of the Webway gate, that alone would have stopped Magnus from blowing a hole in Terra. Killing him is of course out of the question, he needs him for the Golden Throne.
When Magnus reached Terra, his way was barred by very strong defenses that he couldn't breach. He should have realized that such strong defenses must be protecting something important. He probably did realize that but didn't care cause all that mattered was his precious warning that would vindicate his use of sorcery. The Emp told nobody about the Webway project cause no one needed to know. It was a secret in order to protect its security.
Corporal_Reznov wrote: He probably did realize that but didn't care cause all that mattered was his precious warning that would vindicate his use of sorcery.
Manchu wrote: Horus has not yet been presented as living up to his legend, IMO.
IIRC, that was part of the reason he fell. Such doubt was definitely plaguing him at the time.
Yep, that's what I just realized, too -- what if Horus was legendary in the literal sense -- i.e., what if all his skill and talent were ... just mythical?
DarthMarko wrote: To quote Manchu,after webway was screwed - it was like this :
Exactly. and after Magnus was done, he, as a British friend of mine described it, had the cheek to bugger off and leave the Emp to deal with an unlimited horde of charging daemons
Manchu wrote: Horus has not yet been presented as living up to his legend, IMO.
IIRC, that was part of the reason he fell. Such doubt was definitely plaguing him at the time.
Yep, that's what I just realized, too -- what if Horus was legendary in the literal sense -- i.e., what if all his skill and talent were ... just mythical?
I wouldn't say that they were - even if it wasn't explicitly shown, I guess we just have to take their word for it, although i think he did a good job orchestrating the heresy - but it seems he wasn't so convinced at the time. IIRC he was definitely going on about the mistakes he'd kept making since being Warmaster.
Manchu wrote: Horus has not yet been presented as living up to his legend, IMO.
IIRC, that was part of the reason he fell. Such doubt was definitely plaguing him at the time.
Yep, that's what I just realized, too -- what if Horus was legendary in the literal sense -- i.e., what if all his skill and talent were ... just mythical?
Huh? You O.K. bro?
The guy who was mentored by the Emperor, had the most victories pre-heresy, tutored other primarchs, united degenerate half of his brothers and breached Terra was mythical in his skill?
Manchu wrote: Horus has not yet been presented as living up to his legend, IMO.
IIRC, that was part of the reason he fell. Such doubt was definitely plaguing him at the time.
Yep, that's what I just realized, too -- what if Horus was legendary in the literal sense -- i.e., what if all his skill and talent were ... just mythical?
Well, most/all of his accomplishments WERE while he was at the side of the Emperor himself. After Horus was dubbed Warmaster and handed responsibility, anything and everything he touched was an unmitigated disaster.
Horus was a genetically engineered superman in charge of an army of similar supermen. It's not like he couldn't accomplish anything at all. But from what we've seen of the Great Crusade, he did not necessarily accomplish anything startlingly great. Where is the Ultramar of Horus, for example? Where is Horus's Tizca? Is it a coincidence that no one actually knows where Horus was raised or how the Emperor found him, despite there being so many theories? Yes, he made it to Terra -- and I'm assuming that is no mean feat. But we have not actually seen him being brilliant. We've seen him being lordly but I can't name a single scene that justifies such portrayal.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarthMarko wrote: united degenerate half of his brothers and breached Terra was mythical in his skill?
According to C:CD 6E, he had every ounce of help the Ruinous Powers could possibly give him to accomplish this and, as I mentioned, we haven't seen him actually doing anything to accomplish these goals himself in the books. He's often called great; but we're always told rather than shown.
Perturabo for example....In AE he speaks higly on him....Don't forget Dorn, Russ and Sanguinius....
Also I think only Angron was pissed on him being named a "Warmaster" (and maybe LIon )- that speaks something...
I had no idea any of Perturabo, Russ, Sanguinius, or Dorn "idolized" Horus.
I thought Russ trusted the Emperor's decision, Sanguinius liked everyone, Dorn was bitter about Horus being made Warmaster, and Perturabo ... like I said, had huge self-esteem issues.
Cmon @Manchu, whole HH books portrayes him as the "brightest star", and when the news of heresy spread, it always came with the notion that "if the best of them can be corrupted"....
Alpharious? Old fluff pretty much puts him very close to Horus....(I don't buy that Cabal crap)
It think someone needs to get that Sang quote (when he was reasuring Horus) from "fear to tread"....
Manchu wrote: His horror was as contingent as the loss of his eye. That is, Magnus was only one-eyed to the extent that he bargained with Tzeentch; but in so doing, he was always the Cyclops. Similarly, he appears to have always had the values that make him regret not mounting the Throne -- but only as a matter of all the choices he made up to that point. The only Magnus that could regret was the one that fell. The only Magnus that could fall was the one that would regret it. It's a pity that Magnus did not talk more with Konrad; then he might have sharpened his ability, like what you (and now I) speculate to be his father's ability, to see time.
If you read that spoilered post of mine, I have thought for a long time that Magnus lacked an ability to "see time" but I think the way you've put it, where contingency appears to be determinism depending on chronological perspective, is the best way to talk about Magnus's "disability," so aptly symbolized by his one-eyedness.
The idea that Horus's leadership was incidental struck me as totally off at first, given that so much is made of Horus's charisma across so many sources, but it does make sense inasmuch as his actual fall, as depicted by McNeill, revealed him to be a rather shallow, maybe even imbecilic thinker. Also, his leadership in practice seems to rely more on presumption than any actual skill. Horus has not yet been presented as living up to his legend, IMO.
I think of Magnus as more the anti-Doctor Manhattan, in that he can see the flow of time, the past, the present, the future, for everything but himself. And it is this lack of foresight on his own fate that damns him, and makes him blind to his fault.
I mostly meant that Horus being leader was incidental in terms of relating to Perturabo. But yeah, the HH does give the implication that Horus's reputation is not wholly accurate.
He is said to be the greatest Primarch, yet when Lorgar begins wreaking havoc on his ship in Aurelian, Horus becomes noticeably nervous, and tries to have Magnus play bouncer for him (Magnus who was on the other side of the galaxy, and outright told him to control his own ship lol). Lorgar bests him in a contest of wills telepathically. Many of the Primarchs allegedly under his command sort of ignore what he says and do whatever the hell they want, like Angron or Fulgrim.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Corporal_Reznov wrote: When Magnus reached Terra, his way was barred by very strong defenses that he couldn't breach. He should have realized that such strong defenses must be protecting something important. He probably did realize that but didn't care cause all that mattered was his precious warning that would vindicate his use of sorcery. The Emp told nobody about the Webway project cause no one needed to know. It was a secret in order to protect its security.
Yeah, Magnus panicked and acted irrationally. I know.
No one needed to know? Well evidently not, considering that lack of knowledge on it led to someone blowing a hole through it, lol. Hell, the Emperor outright told Magnus that he was leaving to work on the Webway, and that he would play a part. Also telling him that the entrance is the Golden Throne on Terra would have compromised nothing, lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Corporal_Reznov wrote: Exactly. and after Magnus was done, he, as a British friend of mine described it, had the cheek to bugger off and leave the Emp to deal with an unlimited horde of charging daemons
He didn't exactly have the luxury of staying to help, lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: I had no idea any of Perturabo, Russ, Sanguinius, or Dorn "idolized" Horus.
I thought Russ trusted the Emperor's decision, Sanguinius liked everyone, Dorn was bitter about Horus being made Warmaster, and Perturabo ... like I said, had huge self-esteem issues.
Dorn trusted the Emperor's decision as well, thinking Horus the natural choice for Warmaster.
Horus suspected that much, but Know No Fear actually seems to posit that Guilliman was not, in fact, mad jelly, and thought Horus a good choice as Warmaster.
Void__Dragon wrote: Horus suspected that much, but Know No Fear actually seems to posit that Guilliman was not, in fact, mad jelly, and thought Horus a good choice as Warmaster.
Horus only suspected as much on his death bed, it'd earlier been said how Guilliman supported him and was one of Horus' most trusted advisors.
Corporal_Reznov wrote: When Magnus reached Terra, his way was barred by very strong defenses that he couldn't breach. He should have realized that such strong defenses must be protecting something important. He probably did realize that but didn't care cause all that mattered was his precious warning that would vindicate his use of sorcery. The Emp told nobody about the Webway project cause no one needed to know. It was a secret in order to protect its security.
Yeah, Magnus panicked and acted irrationally. I know.
No one needed to know? Well evidently not, considering that lack of knowledge on it led to someone blowing a hole through it, lol. Hell, the Emperor outright told Magnus that he was leaving to work on the Webway, and that he would play a part. Also telling him that the entrance is the Golden Throne on Terra would have compromised nothing, lol.
Nothing but excuses for Magnus is what I see.
Its like if the government has a testing ground with fences everywhere and people are told not to go beyond it and yet people do go beyond and end up destroying a government secret device. The fault is obviously the persons for going beyond the limits. But your post would say thats its the governments fault for not informing people about the device.
Corporal_Reznov wrote: When Magnus reached Terra, his way was barred by very strong defenses that he couldn't breach. He should have realized that such strong defenses must be protecting something important. He probably did realize that but didn't care cause all that mattered was his precious warning that would vindicate his use of sorcery. The Emp told nobody about the Webway project cause no one needed to know. It was a secret in order to protect its security.
Yeah, Magnus panicked and acted irrationally. I know.
No one needed to know? Well evidently not, considering that lack of knowledge on it led to someone blowing a hole through it, lol. Hell, the Emperor outright told Magnus that he was leaving to work on the Webway, and that he would play a part. Also telling him that the entrance is the Golden Throne on Terra would have compromised nothing, lol.
Nothing but excuses for Magnus is what I see.
Its like if the government has a testing ground with fences everywhere and people are told not to go beyond it and yet people do go beyond and end up destroying a government secret device. The fault is obviously the persons for going beyond the limits. But your post would say thats its the governments fault for not informing people about the device.
Yep - it's never the worker, always the boss, the company and the work he is doing....
Try to tell that to your boss, and see how he will reward you...
I always compare Magnus story with my friend's job story...
He worked the night shifts on a construction yard, as a security guard. In his brilliance (read: boredom) he managed to start a 700T bulldozer and pluck it into the mud (up to the roof)....He didn't know; poor bastard....
After that he was rewarded.....He is even today paying that reward....
Its like if the government has a testing ground with fences everywhere and people are told not to go beyond it and yet people do go beyond and end up destroying a government secret device. The fault is obviously the persons for going beyond the limits. But your post would say thats its the governments fault for not informing people about the device.
Your analogy would only work if the Emperor actually told Magnus not to go beyond the defenses of the Webway, or told him about the Golden Throne.
Its like if the government has a testing ground with fences everywhere and people are told not to go beyond it and yet people do go beyond and end up destroying a government secret device. The fault is obviously the persons for going beyond the limits. But your post would say thats its the governments fault for not informing people about the device.
Your analogy would only work if the Emperor actually told Magnus not to go beyond the defenses of the Webway, or told him about the Golden Throne.
He didn't, so your analogy falls apart.
False. Magnus found out about Horus through his sorcery and only managed to "warn" Terra through his sorcery. If he obeyed the Emp's orders. The entire situation could have been avoided. Also, the defenses around the Webway gate are the fences in my analogy.
Again, why the hell does the Emp need to tell Magnus or anyone about the Webway?
The government does not actively over the news tell people not to go beyond the fences. They have signs or its assumed that civilians would know not to go beyond the fence
Corporal_Reznov wrote: When Magnus reached Terra, his way was barred by very strong defenses that he couldn't breach. He should have realized that such strong defenses must be protecting something important. He probably did realize that but didn't care cause all that mattered was his precious warning that would vindicate his use of sorcery. The Emp told nobody about the Webway project cause no one needed to know. It was a secret in order to protect its security.
Yeah, Magnus panicked and acted irrationally. I know.
No one needed to know? Well evidently not, considering that lack of knowledge on it led to someone blowing a hole through it, lol. Hell, the Emperor outright told Magnus that he was leaving to work on the Webway, and that he would play a part. Also telling him that the entrance is the Golden Throne on Terra would have compromised nothing, lol.
Nothing but excuses for Magnus is what I see.
Its like if the government has a testing ground with fences everywhere and people are told not to go beyond it and yet people do go beyond and end up destroying a government secret device. The fault is obviously the persons for going beyond the limits. But your post would say thats its the governments fault for not informing people about the device.
Exactly!!!
Who had a mark of Tzeench on his back ? Who fethed up imperium hope for a bright future (webway) and let a full scale deamon invasion through, and fled from the scene? Who praticed sorcery, openly violating the edict ? Who begged Tzeench to save his hide when Russ's sword was near his neck ? Who free willingly joined the arch traitor Horus, from a safe distance, EVEN AFTER HE KNOWS WHO REALLY SCREWED HIM UP?
Guess - he has one eye, and does more damage to you when he is your ally., then your worse enemy....If Horus wanted to win, he shoud just let Magnus stay loyal....
Not sure these fence analogies really work. No one knew that the project had anything to do with the Webway, or in fact that the Emperor was even aware of the Webway. The fences were erected by Xenos, and we all know how much respect the Imperium afforded Xenos.
I can imagine in his mind Magnus was expecting to go, "Hey dad, here is this dire warning that totally saves the day and completely exonerates me. Oh and by the way, here is this awesome little alien tunnel system through the Warp that I discovered, maybe we can use it for something. You're totally welcome, and yes, I am that awesome."
Omegus wrote: Not sure these fence analogies really work.
The point is that a government doesn't have to tell you anything about what it is working on and if they have an area where they are working on something and you blow it up cause you went there. Its your fault the device blew up, not the government for having the device there cause you came to them not they went to you.
No one knew that the project had anything to do with the Webway,
or in fact that the Emperor was even aware of the Webway.
No one other than Malcador and the technicians that were helping the Emp on his project.
The fences were erected by Xenos, and we all know how much respect the Imperium afforded Xenos.
Nope. The Emp is stated to have put in place defenses for the portion of the Webway he built.
I can imagine in his mind Magnus was expecting to go, "Hey dad, here is this dire warning that totally saves the day and completely exonerates me. Oh and by the way, here is this awesome little alien tunnel system through the Warp that I discovered, maybe we can use it for something. You're totally welcome, and yes, I am that awesome."
IIRC, Magnus discovered a webway gate during the GC and told the Emp about it. The Emp told him not to bother with it or something like that and that he already knew about it.
Yeah, that is my recollection of the story -- and I think that's what the "fence" in your analogy corresponds to, right? Not the webway itself, as Omegus seems to think:
Manchu wrote: Yeah, that is my recollection of the story -- and I think that's what the "fence" in your analogy corresponds to, right? Not the webway itself, as Omegus seems to think:
The Librarius Program was part of Magnus' vision for humanity. His Thousand Sons were the instructors sent out to teach librarians how to be librarians. Ergo, anything that was founded on the principles espoused by Magnus was thus tainted.
For proof, look at how the White Scars librarian's philosophy mirrored Magnus' and then look at how the Emperor pretty much slammed the hell out of it in his speech before decree.
The Librarius Program was part of Magnus' vision for humanity. His Thousand Sons were the instructors sent out to teach librarians how to be librarians. Ergo, anything that was founded on the principles espoused by Magnus was thus tainted.
For proof, look at how the White Scars librarian's philosophy mirrored Magnus' and then look at how the Emperor pretty much slammed the hell out of it in his speech before decree.
That is in effect what happened. In a formal sense, Magnus himself was not judged one way or the other. For Russ, I don't think this was necessarily the personal matter we fans often make it out to be. Russ after all did not like the idea of fighting Magnus. Russ's concerns, whether they seemed like hypocrisy to Magnus or anyone else, were sincere. The wording of the Edict reflects that the Emperor felt the same way: the problem was with Magnus's vision of what role psychic powers would play in the Legions; not with Magnus himself. But Magnus did take it personally; he refused to see any difference between himself and his ideas.
I don't think it was so much the role that those psychic powers were going to play in the Legions, but the philosophy behind their use.
The Emperor in his speech was adamant about how wrong the philosophy was behind the testimony of not only Magnus,but also the White Scars librarian. We see at one point where Ahriman can see and hear Magnus in what appears to be the psychic grip of the Emperor saying that he had "mastered the knowledge". Later on we see Magnus admit that he was wrong all along.
I can't remember the line completely, but basically the Emperor mentioned that gaining power through knowledge was wrong without first gaining wisdom. That was in contrast to the philosophy behind Magnus which is why the Librarius was disbanded and through that action, Magnus and the Thousand Sons censured.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw, yes I know that Magnus and the Thousand Sons were not censured at Nikaea and that it was said that there would be no censure. However it is basically censure without specifically saying censure in this matter.
Tyr Grimtooth wrote: However it is basically censure without specifically saying censure in this matter.
In light of Monarchia, which likely happened very close to the time of the Council of Nikaea, I think it is an extremely important distinction.
I didn't have my books with me when I posted that and don't have them now, so maybe I wasn't as clear as I was trying to be.
Magnus had a vision for mankind. That plan started with bringing the Librarius program to fruitation, ie, psykers in the defenders of the Imperium looks good, so they must be good for the mortals. That brings us to the next phase, specifically choosing rembrancers with latent psychic powers to ciltivate them and to have them spread the propaganda of how good psychic power use happens to be.
Now with the decree, Magnus' vision is cut off at the head. Furthermore, the continued education of his second step is now forbidden. Everything that Magnus envisioned as his role in the service of his father is killed at Nikaea. That is what I mean by saying that although Magnus was not officially censured by Nikaea, he got the "f" censured out of him.
For Magnus, the "rebuke" was banning a program he and two other primarchs designed with the Emperor explicitly saying no one was being censured.
For Lorgar, the rebuke was the destruction of a city and psychically forcing the entire legion and the primarch to kneel in the dust of said city while the Emperor himself explicitly said they were wrong and wasting time -- all in front of Guilliman, who destroyed the city.
It would have been a whole lot different. If the Emperor hadn't given the order for Russ to bring Magnus to Terra, Horus wouldn't have had an order to twist and the Thousand Sons would have remained on the loyalist side.
Manchu wrote: For Magnus, the "rebuke" was banning a program he and two other primarchs designed with the Emperor explicitly saying no one was being censured.
For Lorgar, the rebuke was the destruction of a city and psychically forcing the entire legion and the primarch to kneel in the dust of said city while the Emperor himself explicitly said they were wrong and wasting time -- all in front of Guilliman, who destroyed the city.
Pretty huge difference.
I would say that the driving force behind the Librarius program was Magnus with just encouragement/sponsorship by Sang and the Khan. Integration of psykers fit into Magnus' grand scheme for bringing humanity into the psychic "fold" so to speak. Or as he put out of the darkness and into the light (or something like that in his fabricated story). It wasn't instructors from the White Scars or Blood Angels being sent to establish Librariums in other Legions or to train them, it was Thousand Sons.
Now if we look at the preamble, by both the narrator to the chapter and by Malcador, the "Librarian Crisis" is what brought the council into creation. If it wasn't the conflict on Shrike between the Wolves and TS, it is likely that it still would have just been a matter of time before some action would have been taken. However, the difference between what happened with the TS and WB is that the librarius program originally had tacit permission by the Emperor. It wasn't until after the depths and philosophy being integrated into the Librarius program was revealed that it was finally ended. At no time did the Emperor ever sanction the worship of himself as a diety. That was squarely the doings of Lorgar with his need to have something the focus of his desire to worship.
DarthMarko wrote: What if Emperor only rebuked Magnus? Stripping him of power or something?
As I mentioned before, what cell can hold Magnus apart from the Golden Throne? Unity among the Primarchs was paramount because the Emperor needed to free up his time to build the Golden Throne in the first place.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyr Grimtooth wrote: I would say that the driving force behind the Librarius program was Magnus with just encouragement/sponsorship by Sang and the Khan.
That's just speculation, however. Speculation cannot prove the point that the Edict of Nikaea was a censure of Magnus, especially in the face of the Emperor's own words in the Edict itself. Yes, obviously Magnus did not get his way on that day. That is very different from what the Emperor's censure is actually like -- just ask Lorgar.
Neither Sanguinius nor the Khan were particularly amazing psykers, so it stands to reason that Magnus would be the true head of the librarium. And as stated, the instructors for the other Legions came from the Thousand Sons.
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:I don't think it was so much the role that those psychic powers were going to play in the Legions, but the philosophy behind their use.
The Emperor in his speech was adamant about how wrong the philosophy was behind the testimony of not only Magnus,but also the White Scars librarian. We see at one point where Ahriman can see and hear Magnus in what appears to be the psychic grip of the Emperor saying that he had "mastered the knowledge". Later on we see Magnus admit that he was wrong all along.
I can't remember the line completely, but basically the Emperor mentioned that gaining power through knowledge was wrong without first gaining wisdom. That was in contrast to the philosophy behind Magnus which is why the Librarius was disbanded and through that action, Magnus and the Thousand Sons censured.
The caution about gaining wisdom before knowledge is explicitly spelled out when Ahriman comes across the slates of the Palace of Wisdom.
The Palace of Wisdom was paved with black marble slabs, each one engraved with an uplifting, cautionary or instructional quote from some of the Great Library’s most prominent contributors. Dust, rubble and panicked citizens of Tizca obscured many of the slabs, but sensing a cosmic order to those that remained, Ahriman kept his eyes fixed on the ground as he ran. The first slab bore the words: without wisdom, power will destroy the one who wields it. Knowing there was no such thing as coincidence, Ahriman focussed his attention on each slab as he ran across it.
Seekers desire power but not wisdom. Power without wisdom is dangerous. Better to have wisdom first.
Those who have knowledge do not predict. Those who predict do not have knowledge.
If you abuse power, you will be burned and then you will learn. If you live.
If you remember earlier in the book, Magnus started the various paths/sects of the Thousand Sons by observing hidden patterns among the stones of the ruins of ancient Prosperan cities destroyed during Old Night.
One part of the book that always somewhat confused me:
as Ahriman opened Wyrdmake to all that he had seen, he too learned all that had driven the Space Wolves and the Custodes to make such furious war upon the Thousand Sons. He saw the honeyed words of Horus and the sinister urgings of Constantin Valdor, each spoken with very different purposes, but designed to sway Leman Russ towards a destination of total destruction. The scale of this betrayal shocked him to the root of all that he was. Ahriman had come to terms with Horus Lupercal’s betrayal, for it had its origins in the snares and delusions woven by beings to whom the passage of vigintillions of aeons were but the blink of an eye. This? This was all too human treachery. These were lies, told for noble reasons, but which had brought about the unintended consequences of Prospero’s destruction.
So if Ahriman has come to terms with Horus' betrayal, that just leaves Constantin Valdor' "sinister urgings". What are these "noble lies" told? If they are exaggerations of the threat posed by Magnus, then how could Prospero's destruction be unintended? Did Valdor simply fall to the common superstition that generally surrounds psykers (that had Mortarion was bleating about so plaintively)? Was Wyrdmake more than just a spy, but instigator as well?
Before BL decided to throw the wrench into the works of Horus and Valdor pointing Russ in the direction of destruction, there were two events that supposedly happened.
1. Russ was present with the Emperor when Magnus broke into the palace, and the Emperor ordered the sanction.
2. Russ convinced the Emperor that Magnus needed to fully be sanctioned.
Now Russ trusted Horus completely and believed in his role as Warmaster 100%. So if Horus tells Russ not to bother taking Magnus back to Terra, Russ would probably carry out that order while saluting and saying, "Aye aye Warmaster"! But, Russ actually tries to convince Magnus to surrender through what he thought was a conduit.
So if Russ was loyally following the orders of Horus, was surrender ever and option to offer or did Russ have a moment that he chose to disobey the Warmaster?
What I like about TS vs SW debates, is no matter which side you take, you can't say they are 100% right...
Thats what I like about Omegus posts, he always goes little in TS favor ( ), and then evens it up with objectivity.....kudos for that.....
I kind of tend to view the whole situation with pragmatic inquisitorial eyes....
Did the TS had a mark of Tzeench on them postponing their mutation ? Did Magnus had bargain with deamons? So what's the big deal....??? It is grimdark IIRC.....
Wow, I come back a few days later and there's four pages worth of discussion generated from the fact that I called Space Wolves hypocrites.
Now let me be clear. I'm not saying SW are bad guys, or that they're not loyal to the Emprah or anything like that. Furthermore the issue isn't whether or not they were technically within the limits of the decree because they were never referred to as 'librarians'. The issue, and what makes them hypocrites, is their attitude. They think that they are fundamentally different then other psykers in that they don't believe their power comes from the warp. It is indisputable that that line of thinking is bogus. Their power does not come from 'the nature of fenris' or however they put it. It comes from the warp, period. The fact that that deliberate ignorance was utilized by the Emprah doesn't mean it isn't there. It's when they go around sneering at other Legions for ever having had psykers, see Fear to Tread, that the hypocrisy is blatant and undeniable. How the 1K Sons or any other legion were utilizing and training their psykers does not effect nor justify the SW use of psykers.
Back to the point of the original post. Thanks to those of you who answered the question. I get how Guilleman used the wording of the decree to allow the use of librarians again once the immediate crisis of the Heresy had abated.
The SW and TS psykers were fundamentally different and the issue does not come down to the Warp. The SW simply aren't hypocrites, at least not on the matter of the TS.
Manchu wrote: The SW and TS psykers were fundamentally different and the issue does not come down to the Warp. The SW simply aren't hypocrites, at least not on the matter of the TS.
Sorry, but the of the 1K Sons is where the Space Wolves shine most brightly as hypocrites. There is no fundamental difference between Space Wolf psykers and the 1K Sons psykers. And the issue IS the warp. If the warp as a source of power is considered to be corrupt or to have a corrupting affect, then the Space Wolves drawing on that power is no different then the 1K Sons drawing on it. The differences in how they manifest that power is merely window dressing. Imo the aspect of the Emprah that the Space Wolves most inherited is his hypocrisy. Their attitude of do what I say not what I do is the very definition of hypocrisy.
" You didn't read Prospero burnes? Warp, is not a simple energy, it is consisted from benevolent and chaotic emotions/entities too...
Also check the last line of my sig...and see what RP are considering as the fundamental difference between them and sorcery....
In your simple reasonong the guy who uses wine for cooking and the guy who is alchoholic are the same?
It's not what you use, it's how you use, damn it....
O and there is also canix helix which effectively stops chaos corruption/mutation (example 13th Co., and read "Wolf's honor")....
There is a clear distinction between sorcery and natural psychic power. They both originate from the same source, but there is a difference, even in the studio fluff. See the fluff behind the Thousand Sons.
DarknessEternal wrote: Sorcery is associated with daemons. Whether they taught the practitioner something, are directly empowering the effect, etc. If daemons are involved, it's Sorcery.
That's the line in the sand between psychic ability and Sorcery as the in-universe experts have declared.
‘What I especially admire,’ said the Thousand Sons Equerry, ‘is your hypocrisy. You hound us and harass us over our so-called sorcery, yet you do not shrink from using it, shaman.’
‘There is a vast gulf between what I employ for the good of the Rout and what you practise, warlock,’ Helwintr replied, ‘and the chief part of that gulf is control. Only the naive would think that mankind could survive in the cosmos without some measure of craft and cunning to protect him, but there is a limit. A limit. We must know what we can master and what we cannot, and we must never allow ourselves to step beyond that line. Tell me, how many steps have you taken? One? Three? A dozen? A thousand?’
This really is at the heart of the matter. The Thousand Sons have been deluded into thinking they have control over what they are doing with the warp / great ocean. They have been lied to by their teachers and when the time came to turn the tables on them their teachers / Tutelarys showed themselves for what they really where, deceivers.
From pg 519 of "A Thousand Sons".
Phrael Toron's body shook with the force of the power passing though him, and he fought to control it, remembering the catechisms of the higher Enumerations that Magnus and Ahriman had taught him. Power was only useful when it was controlled, they had told him, and Phrael Toron understood the truth of that as he felt his grip on its leash slipping. Dtoaa, once his Tutelary, now his devourer, swooped down and filled him with more power that even the greatest master of the Aether could contain.
"No!" he cried, feeling the savage glee of Dtoaa as their roles were suddenly reversed.
Agonising pain tore through him, and Phrael Toron screamed as his limbs ruptured with the force of the energies pouring into him. His body could not contain such titanic forces and no mental discipline could prevent what was happening to his flesh from taking place.
Phrael Toron threw back his head and gave one last scream of horrified understanding before his body exploded with the violence of a new born star.
Would you rather us use the words of the Emperor as he explained the philosophical difference in the use of psychic powers? He rebuked Magnus' testimony and that of the White Scars librarian which was the whole point.
People get caught up in thinking it was the USE of psychic powers within the Legion ranks when it was the PHILOSOPHY behind the use of psyhic powers within the Legions.
Tyr Grimtooth wrote: Would you rather us use the words of the Emperor as he explained the philosophical difference in the use of psychic powers? He rebuked Magnus' testimony and that of the White Scars librarian which was the whole point.
People get caught up in thinking it was the USE of psychic powers within the Legion ranks when it was the PHILOSOPHY behind the use of psyhic powers within the Legions.
Exactly - and add that Emperor was honest and fair on Magnus IMHO.... He didn't sanctioned him and his legion, rather all of those who were part of librarius (don't forget, other librarians were pretty pissed on TS, not on opposing faction) ....
I am going to quote some text to nail home my previous point,
A Thousand Sons, page 354
I hear of men speak of knowledge and power as though they are abstract concepts to be employed as simply as a sword or gun. They are not. Power is a living force, and the danger with power is obsession. A man who attains a measure of power wilo find that it comes to dominate his life until all he can think of is the acquisition of more.
Right here the Emperor in one fell swoop, crushes the philosophy Magnus has lived by, taught his Sons to live by, and by extension, the Librarians as evidenced by the testimony given by the White Scars librarian.
In addition we have on the following page,
All men wish to possess knowledge, but few are willing to pay the price. Always men will seek to take the shortcut, the quick route to power, and it is a man's own mind, not his enemy or foe, that will lure him to evil ways. True knowledge is gained only after the acquisition of wisdom. Without wisdom, a pwerful person does not become more powerful, he becomes reckless. His power will turn on him and eventually destroy all he has built.
Again, in absolute direct conflict of the stated philosophy of Magnus, the Thousand Sons, and the librarians per their own testimony. In a bit of foreshadowing, the last two sentences describe what actually happens to not only Magnus, but also the Thousand Sons when their tutelaries turn on them. And lastly, read what Ahriman says in the prologue and his attitude before performing the Rubric. Basically the son repeating the sins of the father with the EXACT same philosophy that got them in trouble in the first place!!
i like TS and SW, but i cant stand this void dragon guy. he ruins the threads by trying to pick a fight with everyone to prove the thousand sons are perfect. now im probably going to get an angry reply to this but idrc, you just need to cool it a little bit man, this website is for recreation, no one wants to discuss anything with someone who posts in the manner you do. Im not trying to attack you, but seriously grow up. its dakka.
I
Automatically Appended Next Post: sorry man, im not trying to hate on you, but your posts carry an angry manner, people in general prefer friendliness. i would have direct/personal messaged you but i dont know how.
MonsterofFenris wrote: i like TS and SW, but i cant stand this void dragon guy. he ruins the threads by trying to pick a fight with everyone to prove the thousand sons are perfect. now im probably going to get an angry reply to this but idrc, you just need to cool it a little bit man, this website is for recreation, no one wants to discuss anything with someone who posts in the manner you do. Im not trying to attack you, but seriously grow up. its dakka.
I
Automatically Appended Next Post: sorry man, im not trying to hate on you, but your posts carry an angry manner, people in general prefer friendliness. i would have direct/personal messaged you but i dont know how.
> Chastises me for posting in an "angry" manner.
> Makes an angry rant in the same post.
> Clearly never has read my posts.
Sorry man im not trying to hate on you, but your Posts carry an angry demeanor. People in general prefer to deal with a friendly user. I would have direct/personal messaged you but i dont remember how.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm not going to get sucked into an internet rage with you, and i actually agree with most of the stuff you post (which i do read) but im just saying that amicability is nice. no hate no anger.
No may I say something in defence of the Thousand Sons (not Magnus though).
Magnus wasn't the only one who started the Librarian Programme, but Sanguinius and the Khan as well. Lots of Legions agreed to this. It was meant to employ trained psykers as a weapon, especially against psychic races such as the Eldar. Nikea was just one of the preluding events to the Horus Heresy, and everybody knows what the real intention was.
The Thousand Sons were never traitors. Aye, they abused forbidden power, something which Russ and Mortarion did not take to kindly, but they did everything with the best intentions. Plus most did not control their power, because of what Magnus was telling them. Ahriman himself said, he wanted the TS to serve the Emperor again, and that eventually he would succeed somehow ( the Rubric was a fail, though)
Now, Ahriman was a good guy. He was loyal, knew his limits, and did not abuse his power. He led his legion to greatness at the start. But Magnus, so sure that he knew everything, messed it all up, and blames the Emperor, the Chaos Gods for it (that might not be entirely correct)
I state that I'm neutral on both the TS and SW (although I like the TS's shiny armour and abilities, and stuff, and the SW'S wolfies, coz they run around and bite stuff).
If you read the thread, you will find that Sanguinius and Khan being the co-founders along with Magnus of the Librarius department has already been brought up and discussed. That is not a strong point in defense of the TS. After all, the TS didn't just have a Librarius department -- from what we have seen, they assuredly went further than any Legion in this area.
And Ahriman really cannot be defended if you're going to condemn Magnus because Ahriman is just the junior version of Magnus.
Ahriman's depiction in A Thousand Sons and Exile shows a very different picture of Ahriman. If not more wise, he is certainly more cautious and likely to examine the potential consequences of his actions than Magnus.
He still ends up dancing on Tzeench's strings. There's not much you can do if the personification of scheming and manipulation takes an interest in you.
It's more than that. Ahriman exactly parallels Magnus. Magnus undertook sorcery that earned him the ire of his father; Ahriman did the same. And Tzeentch interceded to save both from the wrath of their respective fathers in extremis. Most importantly, both thought they were wiser than their fathers with catastrophic results.
Ahriman did the same when he was a mutating sorcerer trapped on a rock in the Eye of Terror.
His choice was either to try his hand at the Rubric for some hope of success (And he thinks that what happened is preferable to mutation), or have the entire Legion mutate into mindless, ravening beasts.
By that point, Ahriman was already damned, he had nothing to lose. Magnus, as we have seen, had everything to lose, and sure enough, he lost it.
Before Magnus' actions damned him however, he was very cautious in the application of his powers, stressing that he was an Astartes first, a psyker second.
Also, Magnus himself preached that even his own sons should take precautions (Such as the enumerations) when using their powers, the problem is that Magnus felt such quaint teachings did not apply to one as powerful as him.
As I have said before, I don't think Magnus can be understood well in terms of linear time. I suppose in that linear sense Magnus appears to risk and loose everything when he breaks the hexagrammtic wards of the Imperial Palace. But that itself was only possible because had already risked and lost, or rather that he was always, at every moment, risking and losing these same stakes and, in his present ambivalence, continues to do so. If change is constant then it is also static.
For the first time, Azkaellon noted the presence of a Rune Priest standing in Redknife’s shadow. The Wolf cleric’s armour was dressed with scrimshawed bones, his open-faced
helm apparently carved out of a great canine’s skull. He was careful to stay at his commander’s shoulder, his hand forever on the hilt of a serrated force sword. The Sanguinary Guard
unconsciously mirrored the priest’s gesture, his gauntlet falling to the pommel of his glaive encarmine. ‘I see that is so,’ he said. ‘Not only do you break the simple rules of fleet protocol,
but you also defy the Emperor’s edict.’ He jutted his chin towards the Rune Priest. ‘You know that psykers are no longer permitted within the Legiones Astartes.’
The cleric answered in a tongue that Azkaellon could not understand, but he knew enough to recognise a Fenrisian dialect when he heard it. Redknife gave a brief nod. ‘My battlebrother
Stiel is not a witch-mind, Blood Angel, and he forgives you for your error. It is a common misconception.’
‘Can he not tell me that himself, in Imperial Gothic?’
‘No,’ said the captain. ‘My skald speaks in our ancient way. It is a tradition, you understand?’
‘I don’t.’ Azkaellon’s tone grew colder. ‘And I say again: the Decree of Nikaea has forbidden the use of psychic powers. Your… priest… should be returned to the rank and file, not
allowed to treat with the warp.’
Stiel made a hissing noise, but Redknife silenced him with a look. ‘His power is pure. It comes from Fenris, as does mine. That is the explanation I will give you, the only explanation.’
He gestured at the air. ‘Now, we may continue on in this vein or we may cut to the meat of this. Which do you choose, Guard Commander?’
Interesting. At least among other Space Marines, the Space Wolves do indeed deny the psychic nature of their Rune Priests. Not just among the Thousand Sons.
Void__Dragon wrote: The Emperor rarely has any comprehension of what he is doing.
It certainly seems that way and this brings up one of the biggest flaws in the story about the TS. When the flesh change crisis first hit the TS, certainly the Emperor must have known about it. Magnus makes his bargain with a warp entity and the flesh change crisis is suddenly solved (temporarily). This sudden cure of the TS should have sent alarm bells ringing for the Emperor but apparently he did nothing. If the Emperor is the greatest human psyker ever and it seems inconceivable that he would not notice that his most psychic legion had been cured by some powerful psychic force (warp).
Now obviously, the Emperor has to have flaws, as do the Primarchs or there could be no interesting story. But Magnus curing his legion and the Emperor not even being remotely curious as to how it was done, in the context of the threat he knew was coming from the warp is just beyond "reasonable suspension of disbelief".
I could not begin to fathom what has led you to such an erroneous conclusion. That, like the great psyker Primarch Magnus, I am possessed of an intellect that is more akin to a vast cosmic tapestry woven from infinite possibility and with pinpricks of starlight threaded within, as opposed to the dull, garish and amateurish collages phoned out by talentless cretins that plague more mundane minds is merely coincidence. I assure you.
Ironically enough, what Magnus (or more so the White Scars librarian) preached about psychic powers is more practiced by the Space Wolves than the Thousand Sons. From what we see of Fenrisian culture in Prospero Burns, they are basically nomadic barbarians who are superstitious to the point of violent paranoia. They are led by shamans who pass their teachings through verse, and any deviation from established pathways is labelled "Sky Magic" or "maleficarum", and out come the axes and swords to massacre the offending village.
So it stands to reason that new powers are rarely, if ever, developed by Rune Priests, with most of their studies involving mastering and using the powers they have as safely as possible. A member of the Thousand Sons who acquires a new power won't spend too much time trying to utterly master it, but rather is already in search of the next horizon. A Space Wolf who comes across a book of demon summoning would burn it, and probably kill anyone who had it in their possession while foaming at the mouth about maleficarum. A member of the Thousand Sons would try to cast the spells just to see if he could.
I was discussing the nature of Rune Priests powers with someone the other day, and he suggested that the Space Wolves' believing their power comes from Fenris - rather than the warp - could also add an element of additional 'safety' to the Rune Priests psychic powers (along with what Omegus describes above and the Canis Helix), which seemed plausible to me...
It should also be noted that, in C:SW (2nd or 3rd edition?), it does make a distinction between what a Rune Priest does and the psykers employed by the rest of the Imperium, though this is noted that it is something of a belief, rather than a fact. As is the writing style of GW, it could be taken either way, that either the Rune Priests are just deluding themselves or that they do practice a safer form of "nature magic" than any other in the galaxy.
Omegus wrote: It's likely both. The most powerful thing in the 40K universe is belief, so in this case the Space Wolves being delusional works out in their favor.
Which makes them superstitious and not hypocrites...
Now if they truly know that they are the same "at warping" as librarians and just pretending (that they are better, only to take down cyclops) then they are "ultra - mega - giga - SE - hypos"....
Third option is that they do draw their power from warp in a specific manner.. Life and death, Fenris lika a conduit...possible but dunno'....
Anyway I always kind of funny how Magnus bull***ed on that meating
Spoiler:
Do you all swear that you shall do honour to your father? In sight of those assembled here on Nikaea, will you solemnly swear that you will speak the truth as it is known to you? Will you do glory to your Legions and to your brothers by accepting the judgement this august body shall reach? Do you swear this upon the staff of the father who sired you, schooled you and watches over you in this hour of upheaval and change?”
“Upon this staff I swear it,” intoned Fulgrim.
“By the blood in my veins I swear it,” said Sanguinius.
“I swear to uphold all that has been said upon this staff,” said Magnus]
Their believing it comes from Febris probably makes it safer, but it still comes from the warp all the same (although in a different manner to the TS or others).
Edit: And really? All traitors broke oaths (Fulgrim there too).
And here is also a fun fact when Empy looked at Magnus before the ruling showing him WHO'S DA BOSS...
Spoiler:
The Emperor’s sword was drawn, and his gaze locked with that of Magnus, as though they engaged in silent communion unheard by any others. Ahriman tore his gaze from the Emperor and saw that Magnus was pinned to his seat, his body rigid and his skin pale. His eye was tightly closed, and Ahriman saw an almost imperceptible tremor in his flesh, as though powerful currents of electricity were tearing through him.
“If I am guilty of anything, it is the pursuit of knowledge,” hissed Magnus through clenched teeth. “I am its master, I swear it.”
Ahriman could hear no more, for Magnus suddenly drew a gasping breath, like a drowning man upon finding the surface of an ocean.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Dave wrote: Or they're both superstitious and hypocritical.
Edit: And really? All traitors broke oaths (Fulgrim there too).
And loyalists....:-) Also you can't be hypocritical if you belive what you doing is a right thing....
But how are they hypocritical if they truly belive their power doesn't come from the warp ?
Plainly wrong - hell yes (because we know that is false, they don't); hypocritical - wut ?
Also what do you think Empy told Agnus the blue when he pinned him to the chair ?
The plain and simple fact is that space wolves condemned and persecuted any and everyone for utilizing the warp while at the same time utilizing it themselves. 'Do as I say, not as I do', that is what being a hypocrite is.
I very much enjoy reading this thread, primarily because only one of the regular posters was not already on ignore when I opened it. However, thank you very much to those whose posts I did not read, because if not for your provoking them, those good replies would not have been made.
There were two important quotes from Burning of Prospero, and I only know about the first one because it was quoted earlier in the thread.
I am not blind to the needs of the Imperium [the Imperium need to train their psykers], but nor am I blind to the realities of the hearts of men [if you do the training yourselves, you will mess it up]. I hear men speak of knowledge and power as though they are abstract concepts to be employed as simply as a sword or gun. They are not [Studying psychic power is not the same as studying metallurgy or combat]. Power is a living force, and the danger with power is obsession [because the study of a sword and sword craft does not produce more swords]….
The secrets I have shared serve as warnings, not enticements to explore further [you are allowed and need to know some things, but not to direct your own education]….
I have allowed my sons to delve too profoundly [the problem is exploration]… no Legion will maintain a Librarius department [legions cannot have an institution devoted to study or development of powers]. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies [however they are not cashiered] and never again employ any psychic powers [applying still to the marines who used to be part of institutions for exploration/study/development].
---------------------------------
‘Part of the sending off is the choosing of the next,' said Aeska.
There were several men in Tra who were alleged to have the sight like Longfang [These candidates are just hanging around but do not use any powers and are not part of a psychic institution]…. Ogvai had made his choice. The other candidates bowed their faces down to the deck to acknowledge the authority of the decision [Only one of the psychic men in the company can be used as a psyker at any time]. The chosen man rose to his feet to face the jarl…. He was known for his strange, distant manner, his odd bearing, and his habit of getting into impetuous fights that he miraculously survived. Wyrd gathered inside Aun Helwintr in a way that Ogvai wanted to harness [a war leader wants to use some property of one of his troops. The person is not directing his own program of inquiry or development, and he does not even have explicit powers].
The problem with that is that Helwolf was also a psyker and used his powers to aid Helwinter with Casper's dream. The was just not the senior gothi for Tra.
You are however correct in that the Decree of Nikaea only effected those psykers whom were train to be "Librarians".
>You know Eada Haelfwulf?'
>
>Hawser nodded. Haelfwulf was another rune priest attached
>to Tra Company, serving their needs as one of Helwintr's senior gothi.
He is another rune priest, but it is not conclusive that he is a member of of Tra. If anything it indicates that he is not.
>There were several men in Tra who were alleged to have the sight like Longfang
Regardless of how many gothi there are, not all Wolves "alleged to have the sight" are professional psykers.
and
>The secrets I have shared serve as warnings, not enticements to explore further.
However many gothi respective companies have, the gothi are in servants of the and running a separate body. So they do not have the self determination to fall foul of the dangers of obsession.
Exploration of Warpcraft is perfectly safe. The problem the Thousand Sons ran into is that they didn't have Sisters of Battle to butcher for protection.
What the Emperor should have said is, "you can feth around with the Warp, but make sure to wrap it up."
Omegus wrote: Exploration of Warpcraft is perfectly safe. The problem the Thousand Sons ran into is that they didn't have Sisters of Battle to butcher for protection.
What the Emperor should have said is, "you can feth around with the Warp, but make sure to wrap it up."
To chime in on the wolfies are hypocrites side, even ignoring the psyker bit the rp s are all about superstitions and such correct?
I though the whole point of the great crusade was to quash all superstion across the human worlds!
), and then evens it up with objectivity.....kudos for that.....
