Banner of the World Dragon
+2 Save against Magical Attacks
stubborn for nearby dragons
50 points

LOL, brilliant design, make an item that is a hard counter against another army (demons). Wait for it. . . . Matt Ward rides again. He did the EXACT same thing with Grey Knights in 5th edition 40k, made them a hard counter to demons.

Has this actually been 100% confirmed now or are we still at rumor status?

 epy346 wrote:
Has this actually been 100% confirmed now or are we still at rumor status?

Confirmed from a rare GW preview is what I understand

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2013/04/huge-high-elves-info-dump.html#more

It's one item. Which means it'll appear in one unit. And expensive enough that it'll have to be the BSB.

It's not quite the same as Grey Knights, which was an entire army as a hard counter to another entire army.

Yes, it's just like where the dragonsbane gem is a hardcounter created for chaos dwarves!

..Wait, no it's not. It's just changed because it's original intention was to fight magical creatures and defend against magic, instead it has become one of the prime examples of a strong, very powerful item taken in combination with a powerful unit.

I have to wait to see that before I believe it. If it's +2 to a "save" or a 2+ ward that's way different. 2+ ward save vs. all magic weapons, spell wounds, magic attacks and stubborn dragons (meh) would be worth an awful lot.

 -Loki- wrote:
It's one item. Which means it'll appear in one unit. And expensive enough that it'll have to be the BSB.

It's not quite the same as Grey Knights, which was an entire army as a hard counter to another entire army.

It´s 50pts, every unit capable of bearing a banner can use it. It should be 55pts so just the BSB can carry it.

Correct, in the Battle Report in the White dwarf a unit of Swordmasters had it without the BSB, however I am less sympathetic to Demon players about it just because I cant say how many times demons have won tournaments around here because of some of the silly shinanigans they got, have not played them in the new book however so maybe that may change. And as mentioned its only one unit so you have the rest of their army to focus on, just try redirecting and or delaying tactics.

 gmaleron wrote:
Correct, in the Battle Report in the White dwarf a unit of Swordmasters had it without the BSB, however I am less sympathetic to Demon players about it just because I cant say how many times demons have won tournaments around here because of some of the silly shinanigans they got, have not played them in the new book however so maybe that may change. And as mentioned its only one unit so you have the rest of their army to focus on, just try redirecting and or delaying tactics.

Still absolutely not fair what they get for 50pts I say. I am not HE hater but I dont like to see another wagon of "Matt Ward/HE" hater munition get fueled again. Deamons in 8th are ok from what I have seen/read/encountered.

JWhex wrote:
Banner of the World Dragon
+2 Save against Magical Attacks
stubborn for nearby dragons
50 points

LOL, brilliant design, make an item that is a hard counter against another army (demons). Wait for it. . . . Matt Ward rides again. He did the EXACT same thing with Grey Knights in 5th edition 40k, made them a hard counter to demons.

Okay compare to the old one

60 pts This unit is immune to magic

I think it is just fine it means my whit lions will have a 5+ ward against magic cool

Did you not ever see the OLD Banner of the World Dragon? Or are you just looking for something to whine about for whining's sake?

 Gorbad wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Correct, in the Battle Report in the White dwarf a unit of Swordmasters had it without the BSB, however I am less sympathetic to Demon players about it just because I cant say how many times demons have won tournaments around here because of some of the silly shinanigans they got, have not played them in the new book however so maybe that may change. And as mentioned its only one unit so you have the rest of their army to focus on, just try redirecting and or delaying tactics.

Still absolutely not fair what they get for 50pts I say. I am not HE hater but I dont like to see another wagon of "Matt Ward/HE" hater munition get fueled again. Deamons in 8th are ok from what I have seen/read/encountered.

So 1 unit being practically immune to the Daemon army is broken?

And BTW it still dies to Purple Sun/Pit/Dwellers with no saves.

50 points is a lot for a fairly situational ward save.

Did you not ever see the OLD Banner of the World Dragon? Or are you just looking for something to whine about for whining's sake?

No one cares about the old banner. Or Daemons in 5th edition. Or the old GW offices were more comfortable. You balance to now. You take your old books and set them on fire and throw the ashes in the trash. There isn't retribution for past misdeeds or you will not have balance ever again once you had imbalance once. Wood Elves next edition would all have HKB on every unit and all them cost 1pt. And wouldn't that be super fun?

 Grey Templar wrote:
So 1 unit being practically immune to the Daemon army is broken?

And BTW it still dies to Purple Sun/Pit/Dwellers with no saves.

50 points is a lot for a fairly situational ward save.

Again, I don't know if this item exists. But 1 unit being practically immune to entire army is indeed broken. If an army had a 2+ ward save vs. Lizardmen it would indeed be broken. Because there's nothing they can do to counter that strategy-wise. Again, I don't know if it exists, if it does, it's 40K mentality of list hammer.

A poison save is situational. Even a fire save, which only goes to handfuls of units (some chaos dwarfs, firebelly, single magic item on a model). Giving any type of ward save to an entire unit is really nice point protection. MR does that, but MR protects against essentially 2 types of spells only. Rune Maw and Blasted Standards are very nice items, and they aren't nearly as good as this.

 Gorbad wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Correct, in the Battle Report in the White dwarf a unit of Swordmasters had it without the BSB, however I am less sympathetic to Demon players about it just because I cant say how many times demons have won tournaments around here because of some of the silly shinanigans they got, have not played them in the new book however so maybe that may change. And as mentioned its only one unit so you have the rest of their army to focus on, just try redirecting and or delaying tactics.

Still absolutely not fair what they get for 50pts I say. I am not HE hater but I dont like to see another wagon of "Matt Ward/HE" hater munition get fueled again. Deamons in 8th are ok from what I have seen/read/encountered.

We can have a silly banner or we can go back to having Teclis and the book of hoath you choose.

And if you want to find something to panic about be scared of this. Bow of Averlorn - 24" S4 Arrows of Isha, Flaming, Volley Fire
Arrows of Isha - magical. -1 AS against wounds caused to forces of destruction if these are the rules for the maiden guard then Glade guard just lost there best archers in the game title and if spammed will ruin any deamon players day (funny how no one has sympathy for deamon players tho) However I am hopping that its only the arrows that the maiden guard will have and that the bow is a magic weapon (however the models have magical bows so yeah..)

I am also assuming you have never seen what llight council list does to deamons. The game has hard counters learn to play.

 Jubear wrote:
We can have a silly banner or we can go back to having Teclis and the book of hoath you choose.

Or we can say HE are broken and thus they are no longer playable. Or anything else we choose to say. Players get to decide what they will play against. There's no dork brigade of GW employees who twist peoples' arms and force people to play broken stuff. Teclis was banned from pretty much every tournament and no amount of "zomg l2p" changed that.

Yeah against some armies its really good against other armies its just a waste of points live with it.

DukeRustfield wrote:

 Jubear wrote:
We can have a silly banner or we can go back to having Teclis and the book of hoath you choose.

Or we can say HE are broken and thus they are no longer playable. Or anything else we choose to say. Players get to decide what they will play against. There's no dork brigade of GW employees who twist peoples' arms and force people to play broken stuff. Teclis was banned from pretty much every tournament and no amount of "zomg l2p" changed that.

How are they broken? We did just loose the rerolls on our super choppy elites (and HEs will be more fun to play against and with as a result) not to mention loosing alot of our more useful magic items (again this is a good thing the book of hoath was broke as gak) And yes you can decide that the army is cheese and refuse to play against it but for me its a sad day when someone refuses a game because he thinks his opponents toy soldiers are better then his. Also the l2p still aplplies if the only way you can combat something in a game is by bringing a bigger stick.

 Jubear wrote:
We did just loose the ..........

Whatever came before is gone. You don't balance 8th army books +- for the same book in 7th. You balance them to other 8th army books. Once that new book is in your hand it becomes like George Orwell's 1984: "There was no 7th edition. We've always been at war with Eastasia."

Yes 100% correct and what we are left with is shaping up to be a balanced book.

High elves will have to go back to ranks and flanks style of play and can no longer rely simply out killing anything they touch.

Why folk care so much about one magic item is beyond me yeah it hurts deamons but one unit is not very hard to isolate/tie up with chaff.

The book is still not the strongest of the 8th books that honor is still held by ogres and even then I would say that they are not so much over powered as simply easier to play and get the most out of.

DukeRustfield wrote:

 Jubear wrote:
We did just loose the ..........

Whatever came before is gone. You don't balance 8th army books +- for the same book in 7th. You balance them to other 8th army books. Once that new book is in your hand it becomes like George Orwell's 1984: "There was no 7th edition. We've always been at war with Eastasia."

I think the point he was trying to make was that while it'd possibly be OP with the old HE book, the new Sword Masters and White Lions aren't the same.

So for all you guys actually defending this stupid banner, let me ask you how a Daemon or WE player is supposed to deal with the following;
40-50 White Lions w/BotWD
Alarielle the Everqueen
Support Mage w/Life or Light
Kitted out fighty Hero

Daemons have 0 answers to that, beyond "hope you roll up Final Trans and can 6-dice it all game without blowing that 1 Wizard!"



The Banner is beyond silly because it simply encourages the worst style of play in Warhammer. (ie: Pts-denial Deathstars)
Remember how everyone was raging about VC's being broken as feth because of their so-called 'Dickenhof Guard' unit? That banner also cost them 125pts to include though, so it made it a BSB-only item.
BotWD doesn't even have that requirement!

Plus, at the very least, it will always be a solid near auto-include since it will;
a) Protect it's unit against ALL Miscasts except Dimensional Cascade and Power Drain.
b) Insta-neuter every single kitted-up fighty character in the game. (while the HE's still get to field their own kitted-up fighty heroes)

I'd hardly call that "useless" for it's cost.

O NOEZ!!!11!!!1!!!1
A banner that gives a normal unit a 5+ (mat) ward save against Daemons! O NO!

@Experiment: Big bunkers are countered with characteristic test spells plus war machines that use templates.

Still, the protection vs miscasts might be a major problem.

Experiment 626 wrote:
So for all you guys actually defending this stupid banner, let me ask you how a Daemon or WE player is supposed to deal with the following;
40-50 White Lions w/BotWD
Alarielle the Everqueen
Support Mage w/Life or Light
Kitted out fighty Hero

Daemons have 0 answers to that, beyond "hope you roll up Final Trans and can 6-dice it all game without blowing that 1 Wizard!"



The Banner is beyond silly because it simply encourages the worst style of play in Warhammer. (ie: Pts-denial Deathstars)
Remember how everyone was raging about VC's being broken as feth because of their so-called 'Dickenhof Guard' unit? That banner also cost them 125pts to include though, so it made it a BSB-only item.
BotWD doesn't even have that requirement!

Plus, at the very least, it will always be a solid near auto-include since it will;
a) Protect it's unit against ALL Miscasts except Dimensional Cascade and Power Drain.
b) Insta-neuter every single kitted-up fighty character in the game. (while the HE's still get to field their own kitted-up fighty heroes)

I'd hardly call that "useless" for it's cost.

Cool a massive points sink that will leave my opponent with bugger all points for anything else. So I am going to out drop him by two to one, deploy on the other side of the board tie his mega unit up with chaff(one well timed double flee should nearly take that unit out of the game) and farm points from his other units. Dont get me wrong getting a big win outta of a list like you mentioned is hard but on the other hand loosing to it is equally hard.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Still, the protection vs miscasts might be a major problem.

Isn't it just one?

 kirsanth wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Still, the protection vs miscasts might be a major problem.

Isn't it just one?

Was referring to that banner.

By protection I think he means the damage results, as they are magical in nature. But he'll still take the miscast, and won't save against losing wizard levels or getting sucked into the warp.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Still, the protection vs miscasts might be a major problem.

Isn't it just one?

Was referring to that banner.

Interesting.
I am not sure that it will actually do that though, they have a FAQ stating that MR does not help against miscasts as they are not spells, I would be surprised if the banner does not fall in line with that.

Good point though, had not gotten that yet.

Well the banner reads magic attacks as well, which miscast damage is defined as being magical.

It's interesting that I finally have an army that people are crying about the book before it's even released.

Can a tzeentch loremaster wizard not just fly forward on his disc, 6-dice dwellers and laugh as 50% of the unit falls down the hole?

 Sigvatr wrote:
@Experiment: Big bunkers are countered with characteristic test spells plus war machines that use templates.

Still, the protection vs miscasts might be a major problem.

The problem though that we Daemon players face is that we now only have access to Pit of Shades or Purple sun, both of which are Initiative tests. (so congrats, you 6-dice a spell, likely explode your wizard and kill 1/6th of the unit...)
All our war machines make magical attacks too, and even our chariots' impact hits are now magical!

Literally, Daemons are down to;
a) 1 copy per army of Final Transmutation because we have 0 Loremasters. (likely on a 500+ pts Lv4 LoC so sure, like you're really going to risk that to miscast explosions!)
b) Tarpit it with Beasts of Nurgle or a GUO who will still eventually die to Daemonic Instability.
c) Use Glean Magic to steal Vaul's Unmaking, (if that spell even still exists!), and use it one the banner. (too bad that "tactic" is so damn random it isn't even funny!)
d) Spam Miasma to de-buff the piss outa the Deathstar unit and then Dwellers them. (asuming the HE player is feeling generous and simply decides dispelling is for whimps...)

If Daemons face a BotWD Deathstar, we have 0 chance of winning the game, and even a draw is going to be a huge uphill battle if 50% or more of the HE army is covered by the Banner.

As mentioned, it's quite literally another "Grey Knights vs Daemons" situation whereby the game is decided just on army lists alone.

Can a tzeentch loremaster wizard not just fly forward on his disc, 6-dice dwellers and laugh as 50% of the unit falls down the hole?

There are no TZ loremasters. Get the new book.

As said, the only DoC casters who are lvl 4, and thus have a reliable chance of getting a doom spell, cost around 500pts. That is the cheapest they come. And that unit has to be a large target monster. Because of all that, people are reluctant to take them.

For the 30th time, I don't know if the item exists. If it does, however, it is massively OP. Any banner that is 2+ ward against [race] is OP, and this one, so the rumors say, is even better than that.

Wait until Warhammer 9th for the inevitable introduction of allies and then get some Chaos Knights to shred whichever unit is bearing the banner.

 Flashman wrote:
Wait until Warhammer 9th for the inevitable introduction of allies and then get some Chaos Knights to shred whichever unit is bearing the banner.

So in other words, "just shelve your entire army for another 1-2 years and then still be forced to include part of another army just to compete."

Note: Not having a go at you, just my bad attempt at internet sarcasim while trying to still choke back my rage at this item.

 Flashman wrote:
Wait until Warhammer 9th for the inevitable introduction of allies and then get some Chaos Knights to shred whichever unit is bearing the banner.

Ensorcelled Weapons are magical. The Knights will be useless.

Keep in mind that we do not have any proof for the banner right now.

If this *is* true, then it's a really, really low blow vs. DoC, Mat Ward did the same thing in 40k and was rightfully hated for it. Goddamn, that guy.

Please, Daemons were already at the bottom of the pile before the GK codex. And it takes a list, that is subpar for a TAC list, to really screw the daemons over.

Perhaps this is his way of showing that he thinks having DoC as a separate army is a bad idea. . . .

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Flashman wrote:
Wait until Warhammer 9th for the inevitable introduction of allies and then get some Chaos Knights to shred whichever unit is bearing the banner.

Ensorcelled Weapons are magical. The Knights will be useless.

Jeez, really? So glad I'm collecting Beastmen. No magical attacks here

 Flashman wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Flashman wrote:
Wait until Warhammer 9th for the inevitable introduction of allies and then get some Chaos Knights to shred whichever unit is bearing the banner.

Ensorcelled Weapons are magical. The Knights will be useless.

Jeez, really? So glad I'm collecting Beastmen. No magical attacks here

Enscorcelled Weapons are now a purchasible option however, and Lances are a point cheaper. The problem is, S6 for one turn makes it into a purely "don't roll rubber-lance syndrome" situation.
Naked Chaos Knights cost too much to really be worthwhile as 4's to-hit/3's to-wound isn't going to cut it vs the likes of White Lions due to them being I5/S6 and thus striking at the same time as the Knights.

Oh. And all HE's now fight in 3 ranks to boot, so those horded White Lions w/BotWD will be fighting in 4 ranks due to Martial Prowess + Horde.

Wait....I'm confused, Is it +2 to saves? Because a 5+ ward doesn't sound anywhere near as horrifying as everyone is making it out, and for a whole unit is about right for 50 points.

There appears to be some confusion weather its a 2+ ward save or +2 to ward saves.

I think it is the combination of this *potential* banner with HE having better attacks against destruction that is the real kicker. Again, I wonder why WoC or DoC didn't get some bonus against the evil Forces of Alignment - except that such a bonus in either direction is clearly broken, unless all armies have it.

HE must either be unbalanced against their own side of the allies spectrum or against the other (or both); they can;t possibly be balanced with all the 8th edition books.

Are people really getting so flusters about 50pts for a 5+ ward save against situation attacks?

"Aww mahn! That banner is stupid! Instead of 20 sowrdmasters, my bloodlettters only killed 14! And it only cost you 50 points?! How is that fair! My army doesn't have that! Oh wait, my army is made of ward save...."

That's what I'm hearing right now. Besides, it sure beats 'unit is immune to magic'. Coz a unit of 50 swordmasters with ASF S5 attacks that was immune to magic was always so much fun...

Quit complaining for complaining's sake! If anyone should be complaining, it should be the wood elves, and only because they STILL have not been re-done. Beastmen have complaining rights too.

Von Chogg

P.S People complaining about other people complaining can also complain. Better cover my own complaining behind.

P.P.S The word complaining is beginning to lose meaning after reading over my post

 Von Chogg wrote:
Are people really getting so flusters about 50pts for a 5+ ward save against situation attacks?

"Aww mahn! That banner is stupid! Instead of 20 sowrdmasters, my bloodlettters only killed 14! And it only cost you 50 points?! How is that fair! My army doesn't have that! Oh wait, my army is made of ward save...."

That's what I'm hearing right now. Besides, it sure beats 'unit is immune to magic'. Coz a unit of 50 swordmasters with ASF S5 attacks that was immune to magic was always so much fun...

Quit complaining for complaining's sake! If anyone should be complaining, it should be the wood elves, and only because they STILL have not been re-done. Beastmen have complaining rights too.

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/attachments/daemons-chaos/28698d1367352765-new-high-elves-just-killed-our-entire-army-image.jpg

Would you like to re-think your silly rant now?
This stupid banner kills the entire Daemons army in any kind of non-comped event.

The old BotWD only made it's unit immune to spells - it did not affect things like magical attacks or character wielding magic weapons OR render it's unit nearly immune to the Miscast table AND required a BSB to take it in the first place!

A Daemon or Wood Elf army (if those even still exist anymore), litterly have no counters to a HE Bannerstar.

 Grey Templar wrote:
There appears to be some confusion weather its a 2+ ward save or +2 to ward saves.

Which is why threads like this are silly.

Wait until the book is released, then do your complainin.

But that's no fun

The leaked book images are showing a 2+ ward save vs magic attacks.

Deathstarring a unit with your characters in it vs daemons is pretty much as hard a counter as grey knights vs demons are in 40k.

What a fun game that would be.

 djones520 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
There appears to be some confusion weather its a 2+ ward save or +2 to ward saves.

Which is why threads like this are silly.

Wait until the book is released, then do your complainin.

Look at the linky like 3 or 4 posts up!
I've linked an image of the confirmed rules from the early app release. It's confirmed a 2+ ward save vs ALL magical attacks. (spells, magical attacks & magic weapons)

That banner makes me miss old Infernal gateway.. whicch was a broken spell that needed to be nerfed. Until some muppet wrote this book (I like the Alan Smithy theory)

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Von Chogg wrote:
Are people really getting so flusters about 50pts for a 5+ ward save against situation attacks?

"Aww mahn! That banner is stupid! Instead of 20 sowrdmasters, my bloodlettters only killed 14! And it only cost you 50 points?! How is that fair! My army doesn't have that! Oh wait, my army is made of ward save...."

That's what I'm hearing right now. Besides, it sure beats 'unit is immune to magic'. Coz a unit of 50 swordmasters with ASF S5 attacks that was immune to magic was always so much fun...

Quit complaining for complaining's sake! If anyone should be complaining, it should be the wood elves, and only because they STILL have not been re-done. Beastmen have complaining rights too.

http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/attachments/daemons-chaos/28698d1367352765-new-high-elves-just-killed-our-entire-army-image.jpg

Would you like to re-think your silly rant now?
This stupid banner kills the entire Daemons army in any kind of non-comped event.

The old BotWD only made it's unit immune to spells - it did not affect things like magical attacks or character wielding magic weapons OR render it's unit nearly immune to the Miscast table AND required a BSB to take it in the first place!

A Daemon or Wood Elf army (if those even still exist anymore), litterly have no counters to a HE Bannerstar.

Its one unit in an entire army that can carry the banner. Trust me if you cant deal with one unit thru any means other then hitting it with a tougher unit you were not really in the running to win any tournaments anyway.

I'm waiting for the demon counter to this item.

Take a high elf unit, tool it up with all of its characters. It now costs about 75% of the army's cost.

What does the demon player do to counter this?

Hit it with a tougher unit?

No, ignore it/distract it with chaff and kill the other 25% of the army. Avoid it the rest of the game and win.

That's a non-answer and you (should) know it.

Point denial deathstars were always slowed. Your hard counters were mostly things like mega spells (which are probably the most complained about thing in 8th), war machines, redirectors/chaff, and hoping your opponent dies of a heart attack.

DoC has fewer war machines than most armies and they are pretty expensive--and they're all magic. Their ability to get mega spells only comes from large target monsters. I.e., no 150pt lvl 4s to try and boxcar. They can redirect like you said, but then you have to hope your army is faster than their army. No matter what your army WAS built around, it has to be speed and avoidance and quickstrikes. I.e., if you're Nurgle, you lose.

It's a hard counter to an entire army (if it's true as leaked). And close to a hard counter to WE. It's also a hard counter to nearly every character in any army, since they are likely to have magic weapons. So you're looking at one item that is a hard counter to like 1/8th the game's armies and all of its characters.

The question is why wouldn't you ever take that item? Seriously. Unless they have a mutually-exclusive 60 pt item that lets you reroll all your enemy's movement every round or something, it's hard to see why it wouldn't have a place just because. The 10 spearmen you would otherwise afford can't possibly be the force multiplier of this item.

"No, ignore it/distract it with chaff and kill the other 25% of the army. Avoid it the rest of the game and win."

That's great except that the high elf bunker described above doesn't need to be engaged to do its damage. It will likely be throwing the #6 spells out at you with its mages safely tucked away inside of it.

With Teclis they get to pick as many #6 spells as they want really.

So ignore it and hit the other 25% is great, except that if you lose any points you are likely going to draw at best, and more than likely lose because the high elf player only needs to kill 25% of your force to force a draw, and with the mega spells of 8th that's not a difficult thing to do, especially when your mages throwing those spells can't really be targeted now.

I imagine the big caster would be sitting in the 2nd rank as well which means you have to kill a 2+ ward save character in the front before the mage can even be brought out to the front rank to start targeting him.

THat also doesn't count the spell that they have that lets a unit move as if it were ethereal. Blocking and redirecting are likely going to be non-issues with this deathstar as A) engaging isn't even neccessary to win against demons and B) you have spells that let you bypass blockers and get you into a better position should you wish to engage the demon player in combat for whatever reason.

auticus wrote:
"No, ignore it/distract it with chaff and kill the other 25% of the army. Avoid it the rest of the game and win."

That's great except that the high elf bunker described above doesn't need to be engaged to do its damage. It will likely be throwing the #6 spells out at you with its mages safely tucked away inside of it.

With Teclis they get to pick as many #6 spells as they want really.

So ignore it and hit the other 25% is great, except that if you lose any points you are likely going to draw at best, and more than likely lose because the high elf player only needs to kill 25% of your force to force a draw, and with the mega spells of 8th that's not a difficult thing to do, especially when your mages throwing those spells can't really be targeted now.

I imagine the big caster would be sitting in the 2nd rank as well which means you have to kill a 2+ ward save character in the front before the mage can even be brought out to the front rank to start targeting him.

THat also doesn't count the spell that they have that lets a unit move as if it were ethereal. Blocking and redirecting are likely going to be non-issues with this deathstar as A) engaging isn't even neccessary to win against demons and B) you have spells that let you bypass blockers and get you into a better position should you wish to engage the demon player in combat for whatever reason.

So your opponent spend well over a 1000 points on a glorified bunker for his mages and you still cant win? Alot of people complaining seem to be very very unskilled or inexperienced players. Hard counters have always existed in this game the old 7th HE book could run a light council list and put the hurt on deamons. Wood elf players have always had a hard time vs brets etc etc. You just simply adjust your mind set in those matchups to focus on staying away from the deathstar and preserving points while farming what you can and play for a minor win instead of a massacre.

Oh gak just read the etheral spell rules again I figured it was only for the caster and not a whole unit buff....And yeah that spell is fething broken the banner is good but that spell is a game changer =(

JWhex wrote:
Banner of the World Dragon
+2 Save against Magical Attacks
stubborn for nearby dragons
50 points

LOL, brilliant design, make an item that is a hard counter against another army (demons). Wait for it. . . . Matt Ward rides again. He did the EXACT same thing with Grey Knights in 5th edition 40k, made them a hard counter to demons.

It's also nearly immune to magic and most skaven shooting. I don't see the entire problem. You can still hit them with something non-magical and in the case of daemons just ignore parts of the army. You can always hit them in a flank right? As they said one unit doesn't equal a whole army and chances are it's elite and would still get owned by some characteristic tests. Also buffs and hexes are still able to work in this. Really the thing that does the worst against this would be magic missiles and most think that's the crappiest type of spell anyway.

It's not like they take teclis, this banner and some OP item and just own everything right? I mean hopefully most of those things would cost a lot and i'm sure teclis would be an expensive lord choice. There isn't much worse for balance than teclis was. Imagine most of the enemy's magic going off and basically having a power scroll every turn (all doubles are irresistible and a miscast) and i think he ignores quite a few of them too. Toughness 7 elves in a building is no joke man. You'd be surprised at the stupidity 'lore of life' is capable of as well as a couple other BRB lores.

I find it funny that players who used to run one of the most OP armies are complaining about the new HE's before the book is even released. I think you guys are overreacting, as mentioned there are multiple ways to counter a big deathstar unit, just because we now have one that is effective vs your army does not make our army op.

DoC have sucked since 8th BRB came out except for 2 units. And were further nerfed with 8th army book. Bloodletters (very nerfed) and Loremaster TZ (completely removed). Maybe a lesser extent Flamers (mega nerfed). DoC was essentially those units--which were indeed very good.

Again, you don't balance to some version that came before. Someone who picks up the books today doesn't care about what happened 12 years ago, they want a balanced game.

As for the counters to deathstars, there are multiple. But most require you to be able to hurt your opponent. Chosen stars were really ugly and they had half the ward save of this. Which isn't a phrase you hear a lot.

 gmaleron wrote:
I find it funny that players who used to run one of the most OP armies are complaining about the new HE's before the book is even released. I think you guys are overreacting, as mentioned there are multiple ways to counter a big deathstar unit, just because we now have one that is effective vs your army does not make our army op.

The point being that every counter that daemons have access to, doesn't work. In this case, it is ok for daemons to bitch.
Options I see are
1) tank it with a nurgle prince and hope you don't pop from instability;
2) Feed it 3 units of furies (60 points each) and 3 beasts of nurgle (60 each) and hope that's enough to keep it busy all game.
3) Blue Scribe and hope for dwellers.
4) Doom and darkness followed by terror test.

-Matt

DP will at least be able to thunderstomp, assuming he survives.

I concur that this seems a bit ouch for Daemons playing against High Elves, but...

In a competition environment, how many HE players would put all their eggs in one basket in this manner in the hope they would come up against Daemon players?

Any army that has access to a unit with multiple non-magical attacks (an Ogre Bull horde for example) is going to happily chew through this High Elf unit. There are plenty of counters from non Daemon armies that should make HE players think twice about trying this super unit in a tournament environment.

As for friendly games? Well if it keeps popping up, don't play him.

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, ignore it/distract it with chaff and kill the other 25% of the army. Avoid it the rest of the game and win.

This. It's worked for High Elves with our current book, why can't it work for other armies?

 Jubear wrote:

Oh gak just read the etheral spell rules again I figured it was only for the caster and not a whole unit buff....And yeah that spell is fething broken the banner is good but that spell is a game changer =(

Read it one more time and notice the part where Etheral only lasts for that magic phase. You become Etheral so you can walk through terrain, but then it ends. The Etheral part isn't what makes it good, it's that it lets you reposition like crazy.

 Flashman wrote:
I concur that this seems a bit ouch for Daemons playing against High Elves, but...

In a competition environment, how many HE players would put all their eggs in one basket in this manner in the hope they would come up against Daemon players?

Any army that has access to a unit with multiple non-magical attacks (an Ogre Bull horde for example) is going to happily chew through this High Elf unit. There are plenty of counters from non Daemon armies that should make HE players think twice about trying this super unit in a tournament environment.

As for friendly games? Well if it keeps popping up, don't play him.

I think the main "Bannerstar" build will be one of two versions;
a) 40+ White Lions (because they're Stubborn & S6) w/Alarielle who filthy, 1-2 support mages and a tooled-up fighty character or two.
Supported by a Phoenix and maybe some flying boats or Phoenix Guard block with the bare minimum spent on Archers or Seaguard.

b) Dragon Prince deathstar w/a pair of fully tooled-up fighty characters, a mounted Lv4 + Lv2 hiding in the second ranks.

The Lv4 mage will undoubtably go for Lore of Life to regrow casulties and Dwellers spam things to death while buffing the unit. The Support mage/s will go for High Magic which is quite scary. Walk Through Worlds is going to make this build broken since it allows the Bannerstar to instantly avoid all chaff/re-directors.
The fighty characters are going to cause headachs since they can out challenge almost every other fighty character in the game since they'll likely have a 2++ due to most fighty characters carrying magic weapons. WoC are going to be very sad indeed until they start leaving all their Lord/Champion magic weapons at home.

Alerielle is silly good now. Think of her as the new Teclis. One of her rumored new rules is to give her unit a basic 5+ Ward save, which of corse gets further buffed by +1 each time a High Magic spell affects the unit. (ie: Walk Through Worlds) Plus she provides a casting bonus to Life & Light users, AND is a Loremaster High Magic.
Oh, and she gets Heroic Killing Blow vs armies from the Forces of Disorder to boot!

Yeah, Daemons are fethed in non-comped tournaments now...

Niteware wrote:
DP will at least be able to thunderstomp, assuming he survives.

For feth's sake I wish people would read the gakking Daemon rules for once!!!

pg26 Daemonic Attacks: "A Daemon's attacks are magical. This includes any special, ranged or Stomp attacks they make."

Bannerstar vs Daemons = HE auto-win.
If a HE player knowingly takes this crap vs a Daemon list and sinks 50% or more of their army under it's protection, they're nothing but a giant trolling donkeycave. Daemons' only answer are quite litterally "spam Miasma to no end and Pit of Shades the unit in question."
In other owrds, a tactic so random that even a compulsive gambling addict wouldn't make that bet!

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Flashman wrote:
I concur that this seems a bit ouch for Daemons playing against High Elves, but...

In a competition environment, how many HE players would put all their eggs in one basket in this manner in the hope they would come up against Daemon players?

Any army that has access to a unit with multiple non-magical attacks (an Ogre Bull horde for example) is going to happily chew through this High Elf unit. There are plenty of counters from non Daemon armies that should make HE players think twice about trying this super unit in a tournament environment.

As for friendly games? Well if it keeps popping up, don't play him.

I think the main "Bannerstar" build will be one of two versions;
a) 40+ White Lions (because they're Stubborn & S6) w/Alarielle who filthy, 1-2 support mages and a tooled-up fighty character or two.
Supported by a Phoenix and maybe some flying boats or Phoenix Guard block with the bare minimum spent on Archers or Seaguard.

b) Dragon Prince deathstar w/a pair of fully tooled-up fighty characters, a mounted Lv4 + Lv2 hiding in the second ranks.

The Lv4 mage will undoubtably go for Lore of Life to regrow casulties and Dwellers spam things to death while buffing the unit. The Support mage/s will go for High Magic which is quite scary. Walk Through Worlds is going to make this build broken since it allows the Bannerstar to instantly avoid all chaff/re-directors.
The fighty characters are going to cause headachs since they can out challenge almost every other fighty character in the game since they'll likely have a 2++ due to most fighty characters carrying magic weapons. WoC are going to be very sad indeed until they start leaving all their Lord/Champion magic weapons at home.

Alerielle is silly good now. Think of her as the new Teclis. One of her rumored new rules is to give her unit a basic 5+ Ward save, which of corse gets further buffed by +1 each time a High Magic spell affects the unit. (ie: Walk Through Worlds) Plus she provides a casting bonus to Life & Light users, AND is a Loremaster High Magic.
Oh, and she gets Heroic Killing Blow vs armies from the Forces of Disorder to boot!

The casting bonus to Life & Light magic is a banner that is unlocked by having Alarielle in the army, it only goes on the BSB and only affects the unit that it's in. She's not a Loremaster, she gets to roll her spells from any combination of Life, Light and/or High Magic. The only Loremaster in the book is Teclis, and even he is only Loremaster of High Magic.

I play DoC and TK, This HE book makes me more excited to play TK and they excel vs elite armies with single big targets. And T3 Elves vs 4 wide chariots don't worry so much about ASF. Just means my skullapults worry about less large targets.

For Doc this is big, the only main thing I got is to get Final Trans. I run mostly Tzeentch and I have 2x LVL 2 Metal so I got decent odds, that I will be ok with 6 diceing every turn.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


The casting bonus to Life & Light magic is a banner that is unlocked by having Alarielle in the army, it only goes on the BSB and only affects the unit that it's in. She's not a Loremaster, she gets to roll her spells from any combination of Life, Light and/or High Magic. The only Loremaster in the book is Teclis, and even he is only Loremaster of High Magic.

Yeah, got both Alarielle & Teclis mixed up. However she's still amazing, especially in combo with the idea of building an 'uber BotWD deathstar;
5+ Ward save to her entire unit (which can be upgraded to 3++ with High Magic)
+1 to-cast all High Magic spells (so effectively +5 to-cast = ouch!)
Once per game she can re-cast a spell she's already cast
Heroic Killing Blow vs all models from Forces of Disorder
Makes her entire unit immune to Fear/Terror (bye-bye Slaaneshii Terror bombing as a possible counter)
Gives her entire unit Magical Attacks (would be halarious to see her unit get stuck against an opposing BotWD however!)

Combine her 5+ basic ward save with the High Magic lore attribute, and you can effectively make a deathstar with a 3++ vs mundane attacks & 2++ vs magical attacks.
But it's all perfectly fine & balanced according to those defending the banner because it's still not nearly as broken as the old Chosenstar was... oh wait a minute...

Its always fine and balanced when its an army you play lol

It is rather sad and pathetic that so many people do not understand how the banner being discussed is bad for the game. The responses from people gleeful that demon players are "getting their just dessert" after the last book are especially childish. When an item, unit or combination of them is a hard counter for an army it is bad for all whfb because it means that people attracted to the nerfed army will just say screw it and we probably lost them as an opponent.

I own and play 8 different armies and I have nothing but contempt for people posting in this thread who assume that people criticizing the banner are exclusive demon players just crying about some nonconsequential item that can be easily played around.

If you think that the banner as we understand it (2+ ward save) against magic attacks can be easily countered by demons you do not have an understanding of tactics or the demon army book. Feed it chaff, avoid it, flank charge it blah, blah, blah. Honestly, some of you people completely fail at warhammer.

I have never in more than two decades put together a list tailored against a specific army, ever. Maybe some of you posters that are suggesting specific (and wholly inadequate) builds to counter the HE and their crutches play in this manner but around here it is called sissyhammer and no one does it.

One person called the banner and its deathstar an expensive mage bunker. Well I suppose any demon player could beat any HE opponent that just used the banner for that purpose. A take all comers list for demons does have some chaff but not a large amount. I especially mock the person's tactic of a flank charge as an answer. Apparently they do not know about combat reforms after the first round of combat.

A smart player with this banner in their army, and it is definitely worth taking in an all commers list, should be able to crush a demon army, every time, with little work. Chaff will only go so far in a six turn game and with the new rules the HE unit will over run due to obliteration or instability tests any chaff. Some people who are claiming that you can "just avoid" this banner must have opponents that are not very smart. Why do you think you can avoid this unit for most of the game. Demon armies are not that large. If the HE player deploys his other units near the unit with the banner then how do you suppose the demon player will fight anything without being charged by the banner unit.

How many people posting here have never played whfb?

In a tournament environment demons already have serious disadvantages that make them a very inconsistent army to play. They also have ridiculous rules in regard to the general and bsb that no other army has to put up with.

In case a lot of you have not noticed, whfb is not the most popular game around by a very wide margin. The game now more than ever needs good rules and balanced army books that put all of the factions on an even footing. Tournaments are popular and even people that may not be focused on tournaments more often than not want to buy into armies that can be competitive in tournaments. This is quite obvious from the many threads people start when wanting advice about armies.

WHFB doesnt need the kind of crap that GW has been putting out lately, Banner of the World Dragon, generally crap design Demon book and unbreakable near indestructible demon princes. If you cant understand why this stuff is just bad for the game in general, then maybe you should send Matt Ward a Valentine's Day card.

People also have short memories when they say demons get what they deserve.

The 5th edition high elf book was about the most broken army book ever enshrined in the whfb hall of fame for broken armies. That book by itself is the source for why a lot of people dropped this game in the 90s and never looked back.

That may seem like a long time ago but really... a decade or so is not much time at all. Most armies have had their over powered broken days. That is not a viable excuse for why they should be screwed over now.

auticus wrote:
People also have short memories when they say demons get what they deserve.

The 5th edition high elf book was about the most broken army book ever enshrined in the whfb hall of fame for broken armies. That book by itself is the source for why a lot of people dropped this game in the 90s and never looked back.

That may seem like a long time ago but really... a decade or so is not much time at all. Most armies have had their over powered broken days. That is not a viable excuse for why they should be screwed over now.

I don't recall anything broken about that book. It certainly wasn't dreaded the way old school Undead magic and the insane Dwarf rune system were.

JWhex wrote:
It is rather sad and pathetic that so many people do not understand how the banner being discussed is bad for the game. The responses from people gleeful that demon players are "getting their just dessert" after the last book are especially childish. When an item, unit or combination of them is a hard counter for an army it is bad for all whfb because it means that people attracted to the nerfed army will just say screw it and we probably lost them as an opponent.

I own and play 8 different armies and I have nothing but contempt for people posting in this thread who assume that people criticizing the banner are exclusive demon players just crying about some nonconsequential item that can be easily played around.

If you think that the banner as we understand it (2+ ward save) against magic attacks can be easily countered by demons you do not have an understanding of tactics or the demon army book. Feed it chaff, avoid it, flank charge it blah, blah, blah. Honestly, some of you people completely fail at warhammer.

I have never in more than two decades put together a list tailored against a specific army, ever. Maybe some of you posters that are suggesting specific (and wholly inadequate) builds to counter the HE and their crutches play in this manner but around here it is called sissyhammer and no one does it.

One person called the banner and its deathstar an expensive mage bunker. Well I suppose any demon player could beat any HE opponent that just used the banner for that purpose. A take all comers list for demons does have some chaff but not a large amount. I especially mock the person's tactic of a flank charge as an answer. Apparently they do not know about combat reforms after the first round of combat.

A smart player with this banner in their army, and it is definitely worth taking in an all commers list, should be able to crush a demon army, every time, with little work. Chaff will only go so far in a six turn game and with the new rules the HE unit will over run due to obliteration or instability tests any chaff. Some people who are claiming that you can "just avoid" this banner must have opponents that are not very smart. Why do you think you can avoid this unit for most of the game. Demon armies are not that large. If the HE player deploys his other units near the unit with the banner then how do you suppose the demon player will fight anything without being charged by the banner unit.

How many people posting here have never played whfb?

In a tournament environment demons already have serious disadvantages that make them a very inconsistent army to play. They also have ridiculous rules in regard to the general and bsb that no other army has to put up with.

In case a lot of you have not noticed, whfb is not the most popular game around by a very wide margin. The game now more than ever needs good rules and balanced army books that put all of the factions on an even footing. Tournaments are popular and even people that may not be focused on tournaments more often than not want to buy into armies that can be competitive in tournaments. This is quite obvious from the many threads people start when wanting advice about armies.

WHFB doesnt need the kind of crap that GW has been putting out lately, Banner of the World Dragon, generally crap design Demon book and unbreakable near indestructible demon princes. If you cant understand why this stuff is just bad for the game in general, then maybe you should send Matt Ward a Valentine's Day card.

Step 1 take a metric gak ton of chaff (like any good player will do)
Step 2 Out deployment drop the HE army (easy to do)
Step 3 wait for the mage bunker of death to be deployed and deploy away from it
Step 4 Abuse the crumble rule mechanic to make sure a unit of chaff always holds it up
Step 5 kill the rest

you only need to prevent an infarnty block from moving for 2 turns normally to take it out of the game

Bad match ups have always existed for every army in the game but I prefer to see it as a challenge rather then something to moan and cry about, the meta for deamons has changed and now they need to field alot more chaff so wave goodbye to one of your big blocks and compensate.

No one seems to be in a hurry to bring up that DEs will now have there wicked way with almost any HE army the see now. You seem to be bad at the game Jwhex feel free to pM for some advice and play tips =P

A crutch? This is the stupidest banner I've ever seen, bunker your characters in a big unit and you've beaten daemons off the bat

 Jubear wrote:

JWhex wrote:
It is rather sad and pathetic that so many people do not understand how the banner being discussed is bad for the game. The responses from people gleeful that demon players are "getting their just dessert" after the last book are especially childish. When an item, unit or combination of them is a hard counter for an army it is bad for all whfb because it means that people attracted to the nerfed army will just say screw it and we probably lost them as an opponent.

I own and play 8 different armies and I have nothing but contempt for people posting in this thread who assume that people criticizing the banner are exclusive demon players just crying about some nonconsequential item that can be easily played around.

If you think that the banner as we understand it (2+ ward save) against magic attacks can be easily countered by demons you do not have an understanding of tactics or the demon army book. Feed it chaff, avoid it, flank charge it blah, blah, blah. Honestly, some of you people completely fail at warhammer.

I have never in more than two decades put together a list tailored against a specific army, ever. Maybe some of you posters that are suggesting specific (and wholly inadequate) builds to counter the HE and their crutches play in this manner but around here it is called sissyhammer and no one does it.

One person called the banner and its deathstar an expensive mage bunker. Well I suppose any demon player could beat any HE opponent that just used the banner for that purpose. A take all comers list for demons does have some chaff but not a large amount. I especially mock the person's tactic of a flank charge as an answer. Apparently they do not know about combat reforms after the first round of combat.

A smart player with this banner in their army, and it is definitely worth taking in an all commers list, should be able to crush a demon army, every time, with little work. Chaff will only go so far in a six turn game and with the new rules the HE unit will over run due to obliteration or instability tests any chaff. Some people who are claiming that you can "just avoid" this banner must have opponents that are not very smart. Why do you think you can avoid this unit for most of the game. Demon armies are not that large. If the HE player deploys his other units near the unit with the banner then how do you suppose the demon player will fight anything without being charged by the banner unit.

How many people posting here have never played whfb?

In a tournament environment demons already have serious disadvantages that make them a very inconsistent army to play. They also have ridiculous rules in regard to the general and bsb that no other army has to put up with.

In case a lot of you have not noticed, whfb is not the most popular game around by a very wide margin. The game now more than ever needs good rules and balanced army books that put all of the factions on an even footing. Tournaments are popular and even people that may not be focused on tournaments more often than not want to buy into armies that can be competitive in tournaments. This is quite obvious from the many threads people start when wanting advice about armies.

WHFB doesnt need the kind of crap that GW has been putting out lately, Banner of the World Dragon, generally crap design Demon book and unbreakable near indestructible demon princes. If you cant understand why this stuff is just bad for the game in general, then maybe you should send Matt Ward a Valentine's Day card.

Step 1 take a metric gak ton of chaff (like any good player will do)
Step 2 Out deployment drop the HE army (easy to do)
Step 3 wait for the mage bunker of death to be deployed and deploy away from it
Step 4 Abuse the crumble rule mechanic to make sure a unit of chaff always holds it up
Step 5 kill the rest

you only need to prevent an infarnty block from moving for 2 turns normally to take it out of the game

Bad match ups have always existed for every army in the game but I prefer to see it as a challenge rather then something to moan and cry about, the meta for deamons has changed and now they need to field alot more chaff so wave goodbye to one of your big blocks and compensate.

No one seems to be in a hurry to bring up that DEs will now have there wicked way with almost any HE army the see now. You seem to be bad at the game Jwhex feel free to pM for some advice and play tips =P

Actually you are the one that needs the advice because you are apparently not up to speed with the core rules. You can no longer "abuse" the crumble rule with chaff. Please read the FAQ before offering out your alleged wisdom about rules. Moreover, if you knew the first thing about the demon list you would know that a good all comers list does not have a "metric ton of chaff". You seem to be confusing the demon army with some other armies.

You assume the banner will be taken on an infantry block. You assume that it will be used on a mage bunker, indeed you make a lot of GAK assumptions. Now I know you really do not want me to PM you for advice but I will at least be more honest. Do not PM me for advice until you improve your knowledge of the core rules and armies. You see you just are not at an advanced enough stage in playing warhammer for me to help you. This is not to say that I dont enjoy helping beginners, I just wont waste time on people that dont know GAK but are under the impression they have some sage advice to offer.

Jubear, please...just...stop.

JWhex wrote:
It is rather sad and pathetic that so many people do not understand how the banner being discussed is bad for the game. The responses from people gleeful that demon players are "getting their just dessert" after the last book are especially childish. When an item, unit or combination of them is a hard counter for an army it is bad for all whfb because it means that people attracted to the nerfed army will just say screw it and we probably lost them as an opponent.

I own and play 8 different armies and I have nothing but contempt for people posting in this thread who assume that people criticizing the banner are exclusive demon players just crying about some nonconsequential item that can be easily played around.

If you think that the banner as we understand it (2+ ward save) against magic attacks can be easily countered by demons you do not have an understanding of tactics or the demon army book. Feed it chaff, avoid it, flank charge it blah, blah, blah. Honestly, some of you people completely fail at warhammer.

I have never in more than two decades put together a list tailored against a specific army, ever. Maybe some of you posters that are suggesting specific (and wholly inadequate) builds to counter the HE and their crutches play in this manner but around here it is called sissyhammer and no one does it.

One person called the banner and its deathstar an expensive mage bunker. Well I suppose any demon player could beat any HE opponent that just used the banner for that purpose. A take all comers list for demons does have some chaff but not a large amount. I especially mock the person's tactic of a flank charge as an answer. Apparently they do not know about combat reforms after the first round of combat.

A smart player with this banner in their army, and it is definitely worth taking in an all commers list, should be able to crush a demon army, every time, with little work. Chaff will only go so far in a six turn game and with the new rules the HE unit will over run due to obliteration or instability tests any chaff. Some people who are claiming that you can "just avoid" this banner must have opponents that are not very smart. Why do you think you can avoid this unit for most of the game. Demon armies are not that large. If the HE player deploys his other units near the unit with the banner then how do you suppose the demon player will fight anything without being charged by the banner unit.

How many people posting here have never played whfb?

In a tournament environment demons already have serious disadvantages that make them a very inconsistent army to play. They also have ridiculous rules in regard to the general and bsb that no other army has to put up with.

In case a lot of you have not noticed, whfb is not the most popular game around by a very wide margin. The game now more than ever needs good rules and balanced army books that put all of the factions on an even footing. Tournaments are popular and even people that may not be focused on tournaments more often than not want to buy into armies that can be competitive in tournaments. This is quite obvious from the many threads people start when wanting advice about armies.

WHFB doesnt need the kind of crap that GW has been putting out lately, Banner of the World Dragon, generally crap design Demon book and unbreakable near indestructible demon princes. If you cant understand why this stuff is just bad for the game in general, then maybe you should send Matt Ward a Valentine's Day card.

Exalt worthy!

I for myself play themed army lists most of the time or those so called "all comers" and reading those "advices" make me feel people just throw out ideas that might work with some books but not with DoC.
The new DoC book needs a lot more thinking than the broken one before and using chaff or throw away stuff is well not possible. I havent played DoC in 8th but reading through my new book makes me asking "where the hell should I get all that chaff from?" there are no throw away units, there are not many chaff worthy units and everything is kinda expensive.

I want to ask this because the posts I have seen list +2 save vs. magic (etc.)

Am I missing one that says it is a blanket 2++ instead?

(See also, OP)

I thought I read it too, but now am only seeing it in reactions.

The leaked ipad version says that the item grants a 2+ ward save against any form of magical attack, not a +2 save vs magic.

Also you don't chaffe the unit if its going to be used as a defensive bunker. A defensive bunker is not coming to get you, it just needs to be in range for its mages to cast #6 spells at you. Redirecting something that isn't coming after you is largely pointless. "Staying out of range" - good luck with that. That's assuming the high elf player is an idiot and puts the rest of his stuff away from his 2+ ward save unit. Why would he? PUt the rest of the stuff near his super unit and now you have to go near it to get to the other things (as demons largely lack any range attack barring magic for the most part).

 Jubear wrote:

Step 1 take a metric gak ton of chaff (like any good player will do)
Step 2 Out deployment drop the HE army (easy to do)
Step 3 wait for the mage bunker of death to be deployed and deploy away from it
Step 4 Abuse the crumble rule mechanic to make sure a unit of chaff always holds it up
Step 5 kill the rest

you only need to prevent an infarnty block from moving for 2 turns normally to take it out of the game

Bad match ups have always existed for every army in the game but I prefer to see it as a challenge rather then something to moan and cry about, the meta for deamons has changed and now they need to field alot more chaff so wave goodbye to one of your big blocks and compensate.

No one seems to be in a hurry to bring up that DEs will now have there wicked way with almost any HE army the see now. You seem to be bad at the game Jwhex feel free to pM for some advice and play tips =P

High Elf player casts Walk Through Worlds on their SkillBannerstar...
Yep, that "metric gak ton of chaff" that Daemons don't even have access to works reaaaaally well now.

Next thing you'll be telling us to "just spam Dwellers and be done with it."



For everyone else here who actually understand the problem:
Has anyone else seen the rumored new rules for Alarielle the Everqueen?! Heroic Killing Blow vs Forces of Disorder AND an auto D6/S4 magic missle bound against every Daemons ofChaos unit within 12"?!
On top of her blanket 5++ basic ward save to her entire unit...

Now who else is starting to see the 'uberstar of doom like I am?! (Everqueen + 40 WL's + support characters = 3++ vs mundane/2++ vs magic...)

JWhex wrote:

 Jubear wrote:

JWhex wrote:
It is rather sad and pathetic that so many people do not understand how the banner being discussed is bad for the game. The responses from people gleeful that demon players are "getting their just dessert" after the last book are especially childish. When an item, unit or combination of them is a hard counter for an army it is bad for all whfb because it means that people attracted to the nerfed army will just say screw it and we probably lost them as an opponent.

I own and play 8 different armies and I have nothing but contempt for people posting in this thread who assume that people criticizing the banner are exclusive demon players just crying about some nonconsequential item that can be easily played around.

If you think that the banner as we understand it (2+ ward save) against magic attacks can be easily countered by demons you do not have an understanding of tactics or the demon army book. Feed it chaff, avoid it, flank charge it blah, blah, blah. Honestly, some of you people completely fail at warhammer.

I have never in more than two decades put together a list tailored against a specific army, ever. Maybe some of you posters that are suggesting specific (and wholly inadequate) builds to counter the HE and their crutches play in this manner but around here it is called sissyhammer and no one does it.

One person called the banner and its deathstar an expensive mage bunker. Well I suppose any demon player could beat any HE opponent that just used the banner for that purpose. A take all comers list for demons does have some chaff but not a large amount. I especially mock the person's tactic of a flank charge as an answer. Apparently they do not know about combat reforms after the first round of combat.

A smart player with this banner in their army, and it is definitely worth taking in an all commers list, should be able to crush a demon army, every time, with little work. Chaff will only go so far in a six turn game and with the new rules the HE unit will over run due to obliteration or instability tests any chaff. Some people who are claiming that you can "just avoid" this banner must have opponents that are not very smart. Why do you think you can avoid this unit for most of the game. Demon armies are not that large. If the HE player deploys his other units near the unit with the banner then how do you suppose the demon player will fight anything without being charged by the banner unit.

How many people posting here have never played whfb?

In a tournament environment demons already have serious disadvantages that make them a very inconsistent army to play. They also have ridiculous rules in regard to the general and bsb that no other army has to put up with.

In case a lot of you have not noticed, whfb is not the most popular game around by a very wide margin. The game now more than ever needs good rules and balanced army books that put all of the factions on an even footing. Tournaments are popular and even people that may not be focused on tournaments more often than not want to buy into armies that can be competitive in tournaments. This is quite obvious from the many threads people start when wanting advice about armies.

WHFB doesnt need the kind of crap that GW has been putting out lately, Banner of the World Dragon, generally crap design Demon book and unbreakable near indestructible demon princes. If you cant understand why this stuff is just bad for the game in general, then maybe you should send Matt Ward a Valentine's Day card.

Step 1 take a metric gak ton of chaff (like any good player will do)
Step 2 Out deployment drop the HE army (easy to do)
Step 3 wait for the mage bunker of death to be deployed and deploy away from it
Step 4 Abuse the crumble rule mechanic to make sure a unit of chaff always holds it up
Step 5 kill the rest

you only need to prevent an infarnty block from moving for 2 turns normally to take it out of the game

Bad match ups have always existed for every army in the game but I prefer to see it as a challenge rather then something to moan and cry about, the meta for deamons has changed and now they need to field alot more chaff so wave goodbye to one of your big blocks and compensate.

No one seems to be in a hurry to bring up that DEs will now have there wicked way with almost any HE army the see now. You seem to be bad at the game Jwhex feel free to pM for some advice and play tips =P

Actually you are the one that needs the advice because you are apparently not up to speed with the core rules. You can no longer "abuse" the crumble rule with chaff. Please read the FAQ before offering out your alleged wisdom about rules. Moreover, if you knew the first thing about the demon list you would know that a good all comers list does not have a "metric ton of chaff". You seem to be confusing the demon army with some other armies.

You assume the banner will be taken on an infantry block. You assume that it will be used on a mage bunker, indeed you make a lot of GAK assumptions. Now I know you really do not want me to PM you for advice but I will at least be more honest. Do not PM me for advice until you improve your knowledge of the core rules and armies. You see you just are not at an advanced enough stage in playing warhammer for me to help you. This is not to say that I dont enjoy helping beginners, I just wont waste time on people that dont know GAK but are under the impression they have some sage advice to offer.

I am totally aware of the faq that is why the tactic works you park a unit in front of a block, said block has to charge or backpedal (1" rule) if he charges he will kill the chaff 99% of the time and then he cannot overun thus stoping the unit making any forward progress. And why does your list not use chaff? Its chaff that wins game by controlling board space allowing you to get the match ups you want, that seems like something you would want to include to cover all your bases.

Your just upset that there is one army in the game that has a counter to a your obvious massive block playstyle "push it all forward hammer" is for beginners.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Jubear wrote:

Step 1 take a metric gak ton of chaff (like any good player will do)
Step 2 Out deployment drop the HE army (easy to do)
Step 3 wait for the mage bunker of death to be deployed and deploy away from it
Step 4 Abuse the crumble rule mechanic to make sure a unit of chaff always holds it up
Step 5 kill the rest

you only need to prevent an infarnty block from moving for 2 turns normally to take it out of the game

Bad match ups have always existed for every army in the game but I prefer to see it as a challenge rather then something to moan and cry about, the meta for deamons has changed and now they need to field alot more chaff so wave goodbye to one of your big blocks and compensate.

No one seems to be in a hurry to bring up that DEs will now have there wicked way with almost any HE army the see now. You seem to be bad at the game Jwhex feel free to pM for some advice and play tips =P

High Elf player casts Walk Through Worlds on their SkillBannerstar...
Yep, that "metric gak ton of chaff" that Daemons don't even have access to works reaaaaally well now.

Next thing you'll be telling us to "just spam Dwellers and be done with it."



For everyone else here who actually understand the problem:
Has anyone else seen the rumored new rules for Alarielle the Everqueen?! Heroic Killing Blow vs Forces of Disorder AND an auto D6/S4 magic missle bound against every Daemons ofChaos unit within 12"?!
On top of her blanket 5++ basic ward save to her entire unit...

Now who else is starting to see the 'uberstar of doom like I am?! (Everqueen + 40 WL's + support characters = 3++ vs mundane/2++ vs magic...)

Did they take single jugga units and fiends, nurglings etc out of the book? How about MSU core regiments?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

phoenixrisin wrote:
Jubear, please...just...stop.

Nope whinging deamon players must be destroyed (in game)

Your just upset that there is one army in the game that has a counter to a your obvious massive block playstyle "push it all forward hammer" is for beginners.

Every army has access to things that counter the above. This is something that counters the entire army.

Nobody no matter what army they play would ever find an enjoyable game against an opponent where over half of his force cannot be hurt (2+ ward save against everything you can do is pretty much as not being able to be hurt as you can get)

If you throw points at the unit you are going to lose even quicker. In a 2000 point game if the elf plaoyer has locked away 1000-1500 points away from you, you can't afford to give them any points because those 1000-1500 points are not going to be had, and you are fighting for the remaining points while the high elf player (who we assume has a working pulse) just needs to shoot and magic whatever point value is exposed to win.

IE - if 1500 of 2000 points is in this banner, the high elf player needs to kill 500 points for a draw and 600 points for a win. A "chaffe unit" of demons is going to run 150-200 points or so. Willingly feeding the elf player 150-200 points on top of what he's going to be killing with his shooting and magic just accelerates him needing 600 points for the win.

Anyone here care to have a game where your opponent only needs to do that to win? Special scenario that says "your opponent only needs to score 600 points to claim victory"?

No one lining up for this? Why not? It will help us evolve to a higher state of the game! Even better still if someone doesn't want to play this scenario, then they are obviously unskilled whining newbs that only know how to push models forward while drooling on their bibs and sipping from sippy cups.

Wow some of you need to calm down.

Any decent person can see this banner is stupid good. It might even be that some will have this in their army But against say a horde of Savage orks how do this help you against Tomb guard, grave guard, temple guard, Empire halbrediers, Warriors of chaos, Plague monks Okkams spear horde of DE, and of course how the hell does this help us against a horde of Ogres. what protection is it against those. Yes this Banner is extremely powerful in certain situations .


For VC's runa 50 bus of zombies have a necro standinmg behind them adding guys back it should take two turns for the the horde to make it through a 185 point unit.

For Warriors hit em with regular warriors probably tzeentch sword and board

but really it will probably end up on a unit Of 20 WL's with a Loremaster in my army will it be OP hell yes. Will i care probablyTthis is why i stopped using my Skaven.

I really think this banner just needs to be changed to mr (5) then the Demons are no longer screwed and we can move on.

The banner is stupid good. I mean, how many points do you pay for a banner that gives the equivalance of MR (2+)? 50 points? Not by a long shot.

My Goblins, however, do not care at all

I wouldn't pay 30 points for MR(5), Magic Resistance sucks.

 Sigvatr wrote:
The banner is stupid good. I mean, how many points do you pay for a banner that gives the equivalance of MR (2+)? 50 points? Not by a long shot.

My Goblins, however, do not care at all

True that is why I believe that remving the magical attacks and instead making it Magic Resistance Level Do you even cast bro then makes it a hard to damage unit until you get in combat.

Except spells that allow for MR saves tend to not do much damage anyway. Magic Resistance is the lamest special rule to have in 8th edition.

 captain collius wrote:
Okay compare to the old one

60 pts This unit is immune to magic

I think it is just fine it means my whit lions will have a 5+ ward against magic cool

The old Banner of the World Dragon was insane . Saw it used in 'Ard Boyz for a Teclis bunker... just plain broken!

This new one... really not sure what people are so up in arms about. It's good, but every army has good items.

Why not let it get put on the table and see if you can figure out how to counter it before freaking out . One item does not an army make! As stated, this is going on one unit, so you'll just have to find non-magical ways to deal with that unit. Every army has bad match-ups, and sure this would be one for daemons. But so was the old Banner of the World Dragon!

I'm starting chaos dwarfs and things that have a 2+ against flaming are just things I'll have to deal with. Just like regenerating units will have to deal with me

So... relax a bit, folks it's not the end of the world... I guarantee it

 RiTides wrote:


Why not let it get put on the table and see if you can figure out how to counter it before freaking out .

RT, maybe you haven't heard: You're on the internet.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except spells that allow for MR saves tend to not do much damage anyway. Magic Resistance is the lamest special rule to have in 8th edition.

Agreed and thats why this banner is either going to be stupid good or essentially meaningless.

 Jubear wrote:

JWhex wrote:

 Jubear wrote:

JWhex wrote:
It is rather sad and pathetic that so many people do not understand how the banner being discussed is bad for the game. The responses from people gleeful that demon players are "getting their just dessert" after the last book are especially childish. When an item, unit or combination of them is a hard counter for an army it is bad for all whfb because it means that people attracted to the nerfed army will just say screw it and we probably lost them as an opponent.

I own and play 8 different armies and I have nothing but contempt for people posting in this thread who assume that people criticizing the banner are exclusive demon players just crying about some nonconsequential item that can be easily played around.

If you think that the banner as we understand it (2+ ward save) against magic attacks can be easily countered by demons you do not have an understanding of tactics or the demon army book. Feed it chaff, avoid it, flank charge it blah, blah, blah. Honestly, some of you people completely fail at warhammer.

I have never in more than two decades put together a list tailored against a specific army, ever. Maybe some of you posters that are suggesting specific (and wholly inadequate) builds to counter the HE and their crutches play in this manner but around here it is called sissyhammer and no one does it.

One person called the banner and its deathstar an expensive mage bunker. Well I suppose any demon player could beat any HE opponent that just used the banner for that purpose. A take all comers list for demons does have some chaff but not a large amount. I especially mock the person's tactic of a flank charge as an answer. Apparently they do not know about combat reforms after the first round of combat.

A smart player with this banner in their army, and it is definitely worth taking in an all commers list, should be able to crush a demon army, every time, with little work. Chaff will only go so far in a six turn game and with the new rules the HE unit will over run due to obliteration or instability tests any chaff. Some people who are claiming that you can "just avoid" this banner must have opponents that are not very smart. Why do you think you can avoid this unit for most of the game. Demon armies are not that large. If the HE player deploys his other units near the unit with the banner then how do you suppose the demon player will fight anything without being charged by the banner unit.

How many people posting here have never played whfb?

In a tournament environment demons already have serious disadvantages that make them a very inconsistent army to play. They also have ridiculous rules in regard to the general and bsb that no other army has to put up with.

In case a lot of you have not noticed, whfb is not the most popular game around by a very wide margin. The game now more than ever needs good rules and balanced army books that put all of the factions on an even footing. Tournaments are popular and even people that may not be focused on tournaments more often than not want to buy into armies that can be competitive in tournaments. This is quite obvious from the many threads people start when wanting advice about armies.

WHFB doesnt need the kind of crap that GW has been putting out lately, Banner of the World Dragon, generally crap design Demon book and unbreakable near indestructible demon princes. If you cant understand why this stuff is just bad for the game in general, then maybe you should send Matt Ward a Valentine's Day card.

Step 1 take a metric gak ton of chaff (like any good player will do)
Step 2 Out deployment drop the HE army (easy to do)
Step 3 wait for the mage bunker of death to be deployed and deploy away from it
Step 4 Abuse the crumble rule mechanic to make sure a unit of chaff always holds it up
Step 5 kill the rest

you only need to prevent an infarnty block from moving for 2 turns normally to take it out of the game

Bad match ups have always existed for every army in the game but I prefer to see it as a challenge rather then something to moan and cry about, the meta for deamons has changed and now they need to field alot more chaff so wave goodbye to one of your big blocks and compensate.

No one seems to be in a hurry to bring up that DEs will now have there wicked way with almost any HE army the see now. You seem to be bad at the game Jwhex feel free to pM for some advice and play tips =P

Actually you are the one that needs the advice because you are apparently not up to speed with the core rules. You can no longer "abuse" the crumble rule with chaff. Please read the FAQ before offering out your alleged wisdom about rules. Moreover, if you knew the first thing about the demon list you would know that a good all comers list does not have a "metric ton of chaff". You seem to be confusing the demon army with some other armies.

You assume the banner will be taken on an infantry block. You assume that it will be used on a mage bunker, indeed you make a lot of GAK assumptions. Now I know you really do not want me to PM you for advice but I will at least be more honest. Do not PM me for advice until you improve your knowledge of the core rules and armies. You see you just are not at an advanced enough stage in playing warhammer for me to help you. This is not to say that I dont enjoy helping beginners, I just wont waste time on people that dont know GAK but are under the impression they have some sage advice to offer.

I am totally aware of the faq that is why the tactic works you park a unit in front of a block, said block has to charge or backpedal (1" rule) if he charges he will kill the chaff 99% of the time and then he cannot overun thus stoping the unit making any forward progress. And why does your list not use chaff? Its chaff that wins game by controlling board space allowing you to get the match ups you want, that seems like something you would want to include to cover all your bases.

Your just upset that there is one army in the game that has a counter to a your obvious massive block playstyle "push it all forward hammer" is for beginners.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Jubear wrote:

Step 1 take a metric gak ton of chaff (like any good player will do)
Step 2 Out deployment drop the HE army (easy to do)
Step 3 wait for the mage bunker of death to be deployed and deploy away from it
Step 4 Abuse the crumble rule mechanic to make sure a unit of chaff always holds it up
Step 5 kill the rest

you only need to prevent an infarnty block from moving for 2 turns normally to take it out of the game

Bad match ups have always existed for every army in the game but I prefer to see it as a challenge rather then something to moan and cry about, the meta for deamons has changed and now they need to field alot more chaff so wave goodbye to one of your big blocks and compensate.

No one seems to be in a hurry to bring up that DEs will now have there wicked way with almost any HE army the see now. You seem to be bad at the game Jwhex feel free to pM for some advice and play tips =P

High Elf player casts Walk Through Worlds on their SkillBannerstar...
Yep, that "metric gak ton of chaff" that Daemons don't even have access to works reaaaaally well now.

Next thing you'll be telling us to "just spam Dwellers and be done with it."



For everyone else here who actually understand the problem:
Has anyone else seen the rumored new rules for Alarielle the Everqueen?! Heroic Killing Blow vs Forces of Disorder AND an auto D6/S4 magic missle bound against every Daemons ofChaos unit within 12"?!
On top of her blanket 5++ basic ward save to her entire unit...

Now who else is starting to see the 'uberstar of doom like I am?! (Everqueen + 40 WL's + support characters = 3++ vs mundane/2++ vs magic...)

Did they take single jugga units and fiends, nurglings etc out of the book? How about MSU core regiments?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

phoenixrisin wrote:
Jubear, please...just...stop.

Nope whinging deamon players must be destroyed (in game)

You might take a look into the new DoC book before giving out hints? The rest is just well, ignored.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 RiTides wrote:


Why not let it get put on the table and see if you can figure out how to counter it before freaking out .

RT, maybe you haven't heard: You're on the internet.

Oh right, thanks for the reminder. Carry on!

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except spells that allow for MR saves tend to not do much damage anyway. Magic Resistance is the lamest special rule to have in 8th edition.

Yep, that's my point

MR should *really* work on stuff like Dwellers. That'd be awesome. But then again, we'd see uncounterable giant death stars.

So I guess people haven't yet considered how you can use the new Skill Banner to easily build a White Lion unit to have 3+(shooting)/3++(mundane)/2++(magic) saves yet?!
Because that was the very first thing that came to my mind...

Shouldn't THAT monstrosity worry everyone equally!?!

Experiment 626 wrote:
So I guess people haven't yet considered how you can use the new Skill Banner to easily build a White Lion unit to have 3+(shooting)/3++(mundane)/2++(magic) saves yet?!
Because that was the very first thing that came to my mind...

Shouldn't THAT monstrosity worry everyone equally!?!

Dwellers etc.

Not fully viable of course, as besides Dwellers, most instant death spells use I...which HE test on 5s.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
So I guess people haven't yet considered how you can use the new Skill Banner to easily build a White Lion unit to have 3+(shooting)/3++(mundane)/2++(magic) saves yet?!
Because that was the very first thing that came to my mind...

Shouldn't THAT monstrosity worry everyone equally!?!

Dwellers etc.

Not fully viable of course, as besides Dwellers, most instant death spells use I...which HE test on 5s.

So other High Elves, Bretonnians, Wood Elves, Empire & Lizardmen can play the "spam Dwellers FTW!" game then?
What about everyone else though? And it's not like you really ever see many Brets or WE's appear at tournament either, so you can pretty much scratch them off the list if you're looking at things from a mainly competitive standpoint...

Sure, Skavenslave buses can hold it in place for a few turns, but VC's and their "drown them in Zombies!" tactic likely won't be able to res enough against the High Elf magic defenses...
Not to mention delaying/re-directing is a pain since if the High Elf player is aiming for a list like this, you can bet they'll ensure they have access to Walk Between Worlds to ignore all those blockers/re-directors/chaff.

So I guess this can boil Fantasy down to the "game of Dwellers/Final Trans vs Skill Banner - who can explode who first?!?"
Looks like utter BS stupidity and mindnumbing bordem to me.

Hey, I'm on your boat! My Goblins do not have access to those spells either.

And about the magic...yes, welcome to 8th.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Hey, I'm on your boat! My Goblins do not have access to those spells either.

And about the magic...yes, welcome to 8th.

How about we just call it "Wardhammer(TM)"?

Bit OT but why so much "hate" for MR? MR is nice to have and there are a couple spells where I rather have MR than not.

MR is very expensive to buy most of the time and barely does something for you - I can count the times I received wounds from spells in my recent games with one hand. Most of the time, those spells just aren't very good and you sacrifice dispel dice you could use for Dwellers / Pit / etc. (which you don't get any save against thus no MR) or for unit buffs that turn out to be more effective.

Most of the time, I see magic missiles being used to kill small cavalry units, Great Eagles and stuff and those can't get MR. Most of the time.

Sure, MR is nice to have, but most of the time, you could take sth. else that's more effective in the long run.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I wouldn't pay 30 points for MR(5), Magic Resistance sucks.

But would you pay 50 for 2+ ward vs. all magic weapons for an entire unit? I.e., hero/lord immunity. I think that alone is a pretty good deal. You put your killy heroes and/or spelly heroes in there and know you won't ever be challenged. Then just go on a murderous rampage. The enemy can't engage you with any of his hero units.

Experiment 626 Wait where are you getting 3++ mundane from 3+ shooting 2++ magic ward I get but even if you have Alarielle her ward doesn't work in combat.

Anointed of Asuryam give you a 6++ but you have to get 3 spells off to get that to a 3++

 captain collius wrote:
Experiment 626 Wait where are you getting 3++ mundane from 3+ shooting 2++ magic ward I get but even if you have Alarielle her ward doesn't work in combat.

Anointed of Asuryam give you a 6++ but you have to get 3 spells off to get that to a 3++

Probably from the shield of Saphery Lore Attribute + whatsherface everqueen's Ward Save she confers to the unit.

And, even though that unit is scary, I imagine a unit such as that will cost a massive portion of the HE Player's army. And we all know what that means... It's not that bad: if you haven't managed to deal with deathstars by now, you're in trouble.

 captain collius wrote:
Experiment 626 Wait where are you getting 3++ mundane from 3+ shooting 2++ magic ward I get but even if you have Alarielle her ward doesn't work in combat.

Anointed of Asuryam give you a 6++ but you have to get 3 spells off to get that to a 3++

IIRC, Alarielle's Shieldstone of Isha is simply a 5+ ward vs all non-magical attacks. I've seen nothing yet, (rumors or confirmations), saying it's only of use outside of combat - just blanket 5++ vs mundane attacks...
That means she only needs to cast 2 High Magic spells to give her unit a 3++, since the High Magic lore attribute stacks existing ward saves upto a max of 3++.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Experiment 626 Wait where are you getting 3++ mundane from 3+ shooting 2++ magic ward I get but even if you have Alarielle her ward doesn't work in combat.

Anointed of Asuryam give you a 6++ but you have to get 3 spells off to get that to a 3++

IIRC, Alarielle's Shieldstone of Isha is simply a 5+ ward vs all non-magical attacks. I've seen nothing yet, (rumors or confirmations), saying it's only of use outside of combat - just blanket 5++ vs mundane attacks...
That means she ONLY needs to cast 2 High Magic spells to give her unit a 3++, since the High Magic lore attribute stacks existing ward saves upto a max of 3++.

Bearing in mind the facts that the new High Magic lore is supposed to be pretty nasty and also the fact that your opponent will know that casting said spells will add to your ward save, casting two a turn may be quite a challenge.

 Sigvatr wrote:
MR is very expensive to buy most of the time and barely does something for you - I can count the times I received wounds from spells in my recent games with one hand. Most of the time, those spells just aren't very good and you sacrifice dispel dice you could use for Dwellers / Pit / etc. (which you don't get any save against thus no MR) or for unit buffs that turn out to be more effective.

Most of the time, I see magic missiles being used to kill small cavalry units, Great Eagles and stuff and those can't get MR. Most of the time.

Sure, MR is nice to have, but most of the time, you could take sth. else that's more effective in the long run.

Ok, we are talking about buying MR? I never bought MR and it´s well, 15years Warhammer now? I was thinking about MR armies/models have by default. I dont want to miss my MR on my Khorne stuff and I cant count on one hand how many Orcs I lost to magic missiles. So I wish I would have cheap MR on my boyz from time to time.

 The Shadow wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Experiment 626 Wait where are you getting 3++ mundane from 3+ shooting 2++ magic ward I get but even if you have Alarielle her ward doesn't work in combat.

Anointed of Asuryam give you a 6++ but you have to get 3 spells off to get that to a 3++

IIRC, Alarielle's Shieldstone of Isha is simply a 5+ ward vs all non-magical attacks. I've seen nothing yet, (rumors or confirmations), saying it's only of use outside of combat - just blanket 5++ vs mundane attacks...
That means she ONLY needs to cast 2 High Magic spells to give her unit a 3++, since the High Magic lore attribute stacks existing ward saves upto a max of 3++.

Bearing in mind the facts that the new High Magic lore is supposed to be pretty nasty and also the fact that your opponent will know that casting said spells will add to your ward save, casting two a turn may be quite a challenge.

Alarielle is +5 to-cast. It's not going to be that hard for her, (or any Lv4 High Mage), to 2D6 cast their spells, ourside of the 19+ spell of 'uber death.

And again, for some armies, we're forced to spend 500+pts to even get a Lv4 wizard of our own...

I really think that alot of your guys are overreacting to this. I am not denying it is good, however I do feel that the "end of the world" mentality from some of you is a little over the top. Like most new books its not surprising that a good item like this will be and is considered OP. However as more and more people play against and with the book I am sure plenty of tactics, strategies and counters will come about, you guys need to play with it/against it before you scream "OP" is all I am suggesting.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Experiment 626 Wait where are you getting 3++ mundane from 3+ shooting 2++ magic ward I get but even if you have Alarielle her ward doesn't work in combat.

Anointed of Asuryam give you a 6++ but you have to get 3 spells off to get that to a 3++

IIRC, Alarielle's Shieldstone of Isha is simply a 5+ ward vs all non-magical attacks. I've seen nothing yet, (rumors or confirmations), saying it's only of use outside of combat - just blanket 5++ vs mundane attacks...
That means she ONLY needs to cast 2 High Magic spells to give her unit a 3++, since the High Magic lore attribute stacks existing ward saves upto a max of 3++.

Bearing in mind the facts that the new High Magic lore is supposed to be pretty nasty and also the fact that your opponent will know that casting said spells will add to your ward save, casting two a turn may be quite a challenge.

Alarielle is +5 to-cast. It's not going to be that hard for her, (or any Lv4 High Mage), to 2D6 cast their spells, ourside of the 19+ spell of 'uber death.

And again, for some armies, we're forced to spend 500+pts to even get a Lv4 wizard of our own...

Point taken, still wouldn't get complacent though. Seems as if I'm torn for choice with all these new Wizards popping up...

 gmaleron wrote:
I really think that alot of your guys are overreacting to this. I am not denying it is good, however I do feel that the "end of the world" mentality from some of you is a little over the top. Like most new books its not surprising that a good item like this will be and is considered OP. However as more and more people play against and with the book I am sure plenty of tactics, strategies and counters will come about, you guys need to play with it/against it before you scream "OP" is all I am suggesting.

Considering that thus far 8th edition seems to have gone to great lengths to do away with crap like 3++ ward saves, (though WoC kept theirs), this item is simply shifting things back to square one for alot of armies...
Not to mention, completely boned Daemons & Wood Elves! (like they really needed any more nerfing )

I'm still waiting actually for a viable Daemons counter to this...

The only viable counter I've heard proposed is "QQ more l2p"

There isn't really a viable counter.

Those people I'm sure would also be cool with playing a game where the opposing force can cram 50-75% of their army into a unit that has a 2+ ward save against their entire army as well.

Because they have moved to the next level of the game and understand strategy, and stuff.

auticus wrote:
The only viable counter I've heard proposed is "QQ more l2p"

There isn't really a viable counter.

Those people I'm sure would also be cool with playing a game where the opposing force can cram 50-75% of their army into a unit that has a 2+ ward save against their entire army as well.

Because they have moved to the next level of the game and understand strategy, and stuff.

I still don't get who is going to actually do this though! Sure this would completely shaft a daemon player but at what point do you see yourself meeting this Death Star? It won't be in a tournament, unless the elf general is an idiot, because it would doom him against every other opponent not to mention the fact that this banner will have the gak comped out of it. Again in pugs you won't face this list as it would get trounced by almost every other army than daemons. The only time you'll face it is when you play a prearranged game against someone and if they take this banner AND put it in a deathstar then they're TFG and don't play em again and word will soon get round and no one will play them.

To summarise all this fear of helf deathstars is pretty irrelevant because you won't see it in tourneys or pugs as the likelihood of a player having it in his list on the off chance of a daemons match up is pretty small. Anyone who does take this against you is a bit of a

 Jubear wrote:


I am totally aware of the faq that is why the tactic works you park a unit in front of a block, said block has to charge or backpedal (1" rule) if he charges he will kill the chaff 99% of the time and then he cannot overun thus stoping the unit making any forward progress. And why does your list not use chaff? Its chaff that wins game by controlling board space allowing you to get the match ups you want, that seems like something you would want to include to cover all your bases.

Your just upset that there is one army in the game that has a counter to a your obvious massive block playstyle "push it all forward hammer" is for beginners.

Jubear your ignorance of the rules is matched only by your arrogance in assuming what kind of armies and army lists other people use.

You dont know wtf you are talking about in regard to chaff. I on the other hand am quite successful in using chaff in my beastman, lizardman and other armies. Unlike you I also know the rules and keep up with the changes so I am not cheating my opponents.

Here is the latest ruling on overrunning

Q: If a unit charges into combat and, on the turn it charges, the last
of the enemy unit it is fighting are removed as casualties due to
Daemonic Instability, the Unstable special rule, Cornered Rats or as
a result of a War Machine failing its Break test, does the charging
unit get to make an Overrun move? (p58).
A: Yes.

You on the otherhand have stated that the HE player would not get to over run and insisted you have read the latest faq. From these two facts we can logically deduce (not assume) that your reading comprehension skill is not very high.

It is somewhat discouraging that a lot of people keep putting new posts in this thread saying to use a tactic that has previously been explained as not viable by others. Ironically these are the very people that need to do more reading and less posting because they are not familiar with the demon book or ace tacticians.

Some of you HE players need to read this stuff because I and others have given you good clues about the power of this banner for you to use instead of your weaksauce strawman tactics.

The players suggesting that this banner would be placed in a big deathstar and that no one uses big deathstars are really not thinking things through and are just wrong about deathstars not being used in tournaments. Many, many tournaments are completely uncomped, the vast majority of the NA tourneys are not comped.

The BotWD is too good not to take its 50 points, it can go on a regular std bearer in the HE army, is fing broken against demons and wood elves, great against dwarves, super useful against WoC and too good for its points if you do put a mage in it. Now a really smart elf player would know that in a tournament list that perhaps it should not go in a deathstar or a mage bunker. Or they might even deploy their mage in a different unit depending on the opponent. Now you all can just figure this out for yourself but since we are talking remedial level tactics I will give you a clue: Martial Prowess changes what it means to be a deathstar for HE.

It appears that at least one person posting in this thread and indeed more have heard somewhere on the internet "chaff is good, use some". Unfortunately these people have not used chaff as much as they say or have opponents that are very weak, otherwise they wouldnt be claiming that chaff was some solution to the BotWD for demon players.

Good chaff needs to be cheap, fast, skirmishers, high ld, and able to make a flee reaction. As others have said, the demon army does not have a lot of chaff and in particular you cant make a flee reaction. An example of the best type of chaff is regular skink skirmishers, they are fast for infantry, they are cheap and they are going to rally most of the time. You dont get too close to the enemy because you want to block, redirect and pull the enemy way in a different direction.

Now the problem is in this thread that a lot of you have heard wonderful stories about how great chaff is and you are confusing really good chaff like skinks with really crappy chaff like demon units. Demon units cannot flee which is a huge disadvantage for using them as chaff. If you take a chaff unit and put it in front of the unit with the BotWD the demon unit is going to get crushed and over run. Then even if you have also redirected it somewhat then the HE unit with its high leadership and musician is just going to swift reform anyway.

Chaff really works best on things that cannot swift reform like monsters and is very useful for redirecting and setting up flank charges. It has a lot of uses but with the new rules on frenzy it is not so good as it used to be. It is somewhat less than mediocre for demons and because of the recent ruling it has been made worse. The ruling is not that big of deal for demon players but it is a really big slap in the face for a lot of Tomb King players who dont exactly have the greatest army book of all time.

Now all of this is moot anyway if the HE player has two brain cells that they can rub together and I can assure you the HE players I game with and fight in tournaments are very smart. The demon army does not have enough shooting and magic to win a game on this alone. You are going to have to go to the HE player and all the HE player has to do is focus their army around a solid unit with the BotWD

It is a bit sad, after VC made everyone start buying magical attacks "just in case" to see this come along and totally ding all magical attacks. You'd need some fairly grotesque luck with a DoC unit to grind through a 2+ ward save, right enough...

Ugly Green Trog wrote:
I still don't get who is going to actually do this though! Sure this would completely shaft a daemon player but at what point do you see yourself meeting this Death Star?

I don't think many people would unless they knew what they were facing beforehand and then you could just punch them in the face in real life.

But the item (if it exists) is godlike for everyone. You don't have to put 50% of your army in. But there is no reason to not put 25%. That 25% becomes effectively immune from all enemy heroes, and 2 entire armies. That's...really good. So even if DoC faced an all-comers list like that, they would see what, 25% let's even say 15% of the enemy army being almost completely immune to them. That's still hard to deal with.

Oh, God forbid something being hard to deal with!

Really, though, if it's in a ginormous death star you curse your luck, but that HE player likely isn't winning the tournament either, which means that (just as Strike Squad span vs. Daemons in 40k) it isn't going to pop up very often.

If it's NOT on a ginormous death star, you go for the other units. In this case it's just a hard matchup, something everyone else has to deal with.

In short, it's not that the Deathstar/banner list is balanced against Daemons as the fact that you're not going to see it in tournaments, because it's binary as hell. Either you counter your opponent, in which case you win, or your opponent counters the ever living crap out of you, in which case you lose.

As a final note, since it doesn't seem to have been mentioned, Alarielle gets a -1D3 to all casting attempts when there's a Daemon within 12" of her, and the anti-Daemon missile has a 12" range.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Oh, God forbid something being hard to deal with!

Really, though, if it's in a ginormous death star you curse your luck, but that HE player likely isn't winning the tournament either, which means that (just as Strike Squad span vs. Daemons in 40k) it isn't going to pop up very often.

If it's NOT on a ginormous death star, you go for the other units. In this case it's just a hard matchup, something everyone else has to deal with.

In short, it's not that the Deathstar/banner list is balanced against Daemons as the fact that you're not going to see it in tournaments, because it's binary as hell. Either you counter your opponent, in which case you win, or your opponent counters the ever living crap out of you, in which case you lose.

As a final note, since it doesn't seem to have been mentioned, Alarielle gets a -1D3 to all casting attempts when there's a Daemon within 12" of her, and the anti-Daemon missile has a 12" range.

Again, in a comp'ed environment, you likely won't see Bannerstar'ing 50%+ of a High Elf army.
On our side of the pond however, we don't typically use comp, and a goodly number of current HE are guess what? Teclis w/White Lion horde - guess what that equals?!

And as pointed out numerous times, under the new rules, HE's won't have to shove a mega-huge unit to deathstar, because of Martial Prowess giving them an additional rank right off the bat...
So BotWD in a unit of even 30 WL's is going to be very problematic, especially if it's then supported by the likes of Telics, or Alarielle, or a Lv4 Mage w/Boook of Hoeth plus a tooled-up fighty character or two. (Here's a scary thought; can you fit a Lv4 + Anointed into a 2400pts list?! ) That unit is near immune to;
a) almost all Miscast damage.
b) almost all enemy characters. (because almost all fighty characters do indeed take magic weapons to make them better at their main role)
c) most war machines. (Bret Treb's will still worry them, but WL's laugh at Mortars and most of the really dangerous is guess what, Magical damage!)
d) 2 entire armies, just because...

That is a massive benefit & huge advantage over a good chunk of the playing field for just 50pts. Who the hell wouldn't include that?! That unit and all the attached characters now have just one really big fear, and that is facing Dwellers and/or Final Trans. (and not every even has access to those toys...) The only other deathstar it likely still fears is an Ogre Gutstar, but even then, it's still likely near-immune to the characters.
And even if it's not on a WL deathstar, you will most certainly see it on a unit of Dragon Princes who will be able to charge about and hit what they want with impunity, since most of the normal counters won't work against them.

The outcry is not "will it roflstomp every tournament now?", but rather, will it lead to/encourage even more boring, stupid shinanigans & '6-dicing mega-spells FTW' that will almost certainly ruin peoples' gaming experience and likely drive people away from the game?

The answer btw, is almost certainly it will.

Tell me again why we should be encouraging this kind of bull****?

Experiment 626 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Oh, God forbid something being hard to deal with!

Really, though, if it's in a ginormous death star you curse your luck, but that HE player likely isn't winning the tournament either, which means that (just as Strike Squad span vs. Daemons in 40k) it isn't going to pop up very often.

If it's NOT on a ginormous death star, you go for the other units. In this case it's just a hard matchup, something everyone else has to deal with.

In short, it's not that the Deathstar/banner list is balanced against Daemons as the fact that you're not going to see it in tournaments, because it's binary as hell. Either you counter your opponent, in which case you win, or your opponent counters the ever living crap out of you, in which case you lose.

As a final note, since it doesn't seem to have been mentioned, Alarielle gets a -1D3 to all casting attempts when there's a Daemon within 12" of her, and the anti-Daemon missile has a 12" range.

Again, in a comp'ed environment, you likely won't see Bannerstar'ing 50%+ of a High Elf army.
On our side of the pond however, we don't typically use comp, and a goodly number of current HE are guess what? Teclis w/White Lion horde - guess what that equals?!

And as pointed out numerous times, under the new rules, HE's won't have to shove a mega-huge unit to deathstar, because of Martial Prowess giving them an additional rank right off the bat...
So BotWD in a unit of even 30 WL's is going to be very problematic, especially if it's then supported by the likes of Telics, or Alarielle, or a Lv4 Mage w/Boook of Hoeth plus a tooled-up fighty character or two. (Here's a scary thought; can you fit a Lv4 + Anointed into a 2400pts list?! ) That unit is near immune to;
a) almost all Miscast damage.
b) almost all enemy characters. (because almost all fighty characters do indeed take magic weapons to make them better at their main role)
c) most war machines. (Bret Treb's will still worry them, but WL's laugh at Mortars and most of the really dangerous is guess what, Magical damage!)
d) 2 entire armies, just because...

That is a massive benefit & huge advantage over a good chunk of the playing field for just 50pts. Who the hell wouldn't include that?! That unit and all the attached characters now have just one really big fear, and that is facing Dwellers and/or Final Trans. (and not every even has access to those toys...) The only other deathstar it likely still fears is an Ogre Gutstar, but even then, it's still likely near-immune to the characters.
And even if it's not on a WL deathstar, you will most certainly see it on a unit of Dragon Princes who will be able to charge about and hit what they want with impunity, since most of the normal counters won't work against them.

The outcry is not "will it roflstomp every tournament now?", but rather, will it lead to/encourage even more boring, stupid shinanigans & '6-dicing mega-spells FTW' that will almost certainly ruin peoples' gaming experience and likely drive people away from the game?

The answer btw, is almost certainly it will.

Tell me again why we should be encouraging this kind of bull****?

Can you put the magic banner on multiple units? I thought it was just one per army.

I dont' play in tournaments. The issue that this brings is that if you play in

* leagues where you know your opponent before hand
* campaigns where you know your opponent before hand
* open games where you write your lists when you get to the store

then if you are a demon player you have to rely on your opponent's generosity to not create a douchebag unit. In leagues you have to either comp the item or request to not be scheduled against high elves if you are a demon player or just give up the win if the HE player shows up with the skill unit. (unless your idea of fun is spending your free time getting hammered in a game where you are not just at a disadvantage (which I feel is fine) but at a gross disadvantage the entire game. This feels more akin to playing a game where you have 500 points and your opponent has 2000. With no special rules.

Chaffe for demons -> not viable.
Redirect -> see chaffe. YOu're just feeding the high elves free points.

If they've locked 1000 points into this unit out of 2000, the demon player can only really get 1000 points out of his opponent. That means the high elf player needs to focus on scoring 1100 points to win.

If the high elf player goes ultra douche, he could lock 1500 of his 2000 points into this banner, meaning the demon player only has access to 500 points to kill. This means the high elf player needs to kill 600 points of demons to win. 600 points of demon is a normal sized unit and a character thereabouts.

That's not a "game" that anyone would want to play. If I sat across from anyone here and said "let's play but 75% of my army gets a 2+ ward against anything that you can do, I just have to dock myself 50 points for the priveledge" - what type of reaction would you expect I'd receive?

auticus wrote:

...That's not a "game" that anyone would want to play. If I sat across from anyone here and said "let's play but 75% of my army gets a 2+ ward against anything that you can do, I just have to dock myself 50 points for the priveledge" - what type of reaction would you expect I'd receive?

Well, according to alot of the people responding to this thread, the answer is, "shut-up cry-baby & just lrn2play"...

auticus wrote:

Chaffe for demons -> not viable.
Redirect -> see chaffe. YOu're just feeding the high elves free points.

Chaff and redirecting has been working for High Elves this entire edition against similar threats, why would it not work for Daemons? This isn't meant as an attack at Daemon players BTW, even though I can see why it'd seem that way, but I'm genuinely curious.

Experiment 626 wrote:


Tell me again why we should be encouraging this kind of bull****?

We shouldn't, the same way we absolutely, under no circumstances, should encourage knee-jerk banning stuff.

Experiment 626 wrote:

auticus wrote:

...That's not a "game" that anyone would want to play. If I sat across from anyone here and said "let's play but 75% of my army gets a 2+ ward against anything that you can do, I just have to dock myself 50 points for the priveledge" - what type of reaction would you expect I'd receive?

Well, according to alot of the people responding to this thread, the answer is, "shut-up cry-baby & just lrn2play"...

The same way that your side is adamant that there's nothing that can be done ever and that this'll instantly destroy tournaments for Daemon players on a regular basis. Strike Squad spam didn't destroy tournaments for Daemons in 40k, why would this be any different? Refusing to even try to adapt is going to guarantee that you fail. Both sides (including myself) are overreacting.

The same way that your side is adamant that there's nothing that can be done ever and that this'll instantly destroy tournaments for Daemon players on a regular basis. Strike Squad spam didn't destroy tournaments for Daemons in 40k, why would this be any different? Refusing to even try to adapt is going to guarantee that you fail. Both sides (including myself) are overreacting.

Actually that's because SS is only a hard counter for Reserves lists, with the exception of Daemons, they didn't counter much else (Drop pod armies at the time weren't especially prevalent at tournaments, and blood angels simply jump packed instead if they saw this) Not to mention Purifier armies and Paladins points denial happened more because of practicality.

This seems like it has far more practical application against daemons, and a fair number of actual armies instead. As in this is a cheap thing that'll go in Every High Elf List. As you can equip it to any squad you desire.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

auticus wrote:

Chaffe for demons -> not viable.
Redirect -> see chaffe. YOu're just feeding the high elves free points.

Chaff and redirecting has been working for High Elves this entire edition against similar threats, why would it not work for Daemons? This isn't meant as an attack at Daemon players BTW, even though I can see why it'd seem that way, but I'm genuinely curious.

Experiment 626 wrote:


Tell me again why we should be encouraging this kind of bull****?

We shouldn't, the same way we absolutely, under no circumstances, should encourage knee-jerk banning stuff.

Experiment 626 wrote:

auticus wrote:

...That's not a "game" that anyone would want to play. If I sat across from anyone here and said "let's play but 75% of my army gets a 2+ ward against anything that you can do, I just have to dock myself 50 points for the priveledge" - what type of reaction would you expect I'd receive?

Well, according to alot of the people responding to this thread, the answer is, "shut-up cry-baby & just lrn2play"...

The same way that your side is adamant that there's nothing that can be done ever and that this'll instantly destroy tournaments for Daemon players on a regular basis. Strike Squad spam didn't destroy tournaments for Daemons in 40k, why would this be any different? Refusing to even try to adapt is going to guarantee that you fail. Both sides (including myself) are overreacting.

The fact that you and others keep saying, "just chaff it/re-direct it" proves you haven't read the Daemon book and don't have any real idea of how Daemons work now.

Notice it's not just a couple Daemons players crying out loud, with a few more level-headed Daemon players offing suggestions to 'fix' the problem...
When pretty much every single Daemon player is saying the exact same thing, and giving reletively the same reasons for why our army is royally screwed over by this one banner, odds are it's likely very true.

And please, no more useless comments about how we can "just thunderstomp the unit into oblivion" (getting really tired of people stupidly suggesting that one...)

Chaff and redirecting has been working for High Elves this entire edition against similar threats, why would it not work for Daemons? This isn't meant as an attack at Daemon players BTW, even though I can see why it'd seem that way, but I'm genuinely curious.

I'll explain this one more time. Not trying to be an ass but i've said this a few times already in this thread to explain why chaff and redirecting doesn't work and it appears no one is reading it or is just dismissing it.

2000 point game - high elf player tailors his list for his demon opponent. Puts 1500 points of his 2000 point into a white lion unit along with Teclis/Aierele/level 4, a supporting level 2, and a BSB. This is 1500 points that the demon player largely cannot get to to score. This can be used offensively but I would not use this offensively. This is a *defensive* bunker that is used to lock 1500 points of the 2000 points away.

Warhammer is a game won largely by scoring more points than the opponent. We can all agree on this point I'm sure.

The demon player has to score the 500 remaining points. He absolutely needs to do that at a bare minimum. He also needs to not give up 500 points of his own. If the high elf player scores 500 points (a demon unit and a character) then the best the demon player gets is a draw. If the high elf player scores 600 or more points, the high elf player wins.

Chaffe/redirect is useless in this because the white lion unit is not looking to even move. Its looking to get into range of its nasty #6 spells and start unleashing hell at the most expensive and nasty demon unit that it can to score what it needs to win and then sit back. If the demon player throws chaffe at it, the high elf player ignores it. Better yet would be if the demon player actually charges the high elf unit with the chaffe because he's essentially wiped his ass with 200 some odd points and made the high elf player's life easier in achieving the 600 points he needs to gain.

Now chaffe / redirects are marginally useful against things like a dragon prince unit coming full balls out to charge through the demon army but that's not the scenario that is the demon army killer. The scenario is locking away the majority of your points in a bunker that has its armor save plus a 2+ ward save against ANYTHING the demon player does and then sitting back on it and plink as many points as it can off of the demon player to exceed the amount of points that is not protected by the mat ward save.

No chaffe or redirect units in the world will do anything to this unit because this unit is not interested in charging out. Chaffe / redirect units are used to attempt to circumvent units attempting to maul you in combat.

Another thing that this unit can do is actively engage the chaffe while its wizards blow a hole in another unit as the demonic chaffe units are all going to be expensive so that will help score the minimal points needed to secure a victory. Redirect or not. Plus with things life free reform and leadership 9 on the white lions, redirecting is not going to do hamper it much at all. Also any casualties that you do manage to get through the armor save and then 2+ mat ward save will attempt to be brought back via life spells. Engaging this unit in combat is for the most part as far as I can see a complete waste of time and is doing nothing but handing points to your opponent.

To distill the issue for you:

Let's play a scenario where 75% of my army gets a 2+ mat ward save against anything you do.

Not a fan?

Let's play a scenario where I only need to score 600 points off of you to win.

Still not a fan?

I'm not a fan either. This is not the type of game i'm interested in playing. I'd rather find a new system that is less paper/rock/scissors and where mat ward is no where near the rules.

auticus wrote:
2000 point game - high elf player tailors his list for his demon opponent.

Which then loses to most any other army.
Or is the assumption that this is not a tourney and the high elf player is just a jerk that you would not play anyway?

editing to add:
Not that I am saying the item as stated is not good, but rather that if the problem is that it makes it possible to tailor an army to curb stomp 1 particular opponent, it is not so much of a problem.

Sure, the banner has use against most any army. However, tailoring a list to abuse it to that degree leaves plenty of holes in the rest of the army.

 kirsanth wrote:

auticus wrote:
2000 point game - high elf player tailors his list for his demon opponent.

Which then loses to most any other army.
Or is the assumption that this is not a tourney and the high elf player is just a jerk that you would not play anyway?

Realize that not everyone plays predominantly in a tournament enviornment where you show up with open lists to take on all comers.

Leagues
Campaigns
Open gaming at stores

These are all places where you know your opponent ahead of time and can list tailor. If I'm in a league and I'm matched up against a high elf player, I can't just not play him because he's a jerk. I mean likely if he shows up with that crap i'll shake his hand tell him great game and then give up the loss as opposed to giving up two hours of my life to a one sided contest but there are a ton of other avenues other than tournaments and all comers events that exist.

auticus wrote:
I can't just not play him because he's a jerk.

Seriously?
Why are you in a league with people you do not enjoy the company of?

 kirsanth wrote:

auticus wrote:
I can't just not play him because he's a jerk.

Seriously?
Why are you in a league with people you do not enjoy the company of?

I enjoy the company of everyone I play against. However in a competitive league environment, there's nothing stopping the high elf players from securing an auto win to further their standings because that's what competitions are are they not? That doesn't make the person a bad person or someone that you should socially excommunicate, it means that they enjoy power gaming and are power gaming legally to get an easy win to further their standings because the rules let them do it.

Then you have places in the world where your gaming community might literally only be four or five people and you either play or you don't play.

 kirsanth wrote:

auticus wrote:
2000 point game - high elf player tailors his list for his demon opponent.

Which then loses to most any other army.
Or is the assumption that this is not a tourney and the high elf player is just a jerk that you would not play anyway?

editing to add:
Not that I am saying the item as stated is not good, but rather that if the problem is that it makes it possible to tailor an army to curb stomp 1 particular opponent, it is not so much of a problem.

Sure, the banner has use against most any army. However, tailoring a list to abuse it to that degree leaves plenty of holes in the rest of the army.

You have like 6k posts, dont you read the threads you post in. WTF is with people repeatedly saying to use chaff when they have practically been given an online course about demons and chaff in this thread.

WTF is wrong with people that keep saying that using this banner will somehow make your army worse against a lot of other armies?

WTF is with all these noobish selfish short sighted people that DO NOT SEE THE FETHING BIG PICTURE that this isnt exclusively a demon player problem but that it is bad for the entire whfb community when one army is a hard counter for another army?

auticus wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

auticus wrote:
I can't just not play him because he's a jerk.

Seriously?
Why are you in a league with people you do not enjoy the company of?

I enjoy the company of everyone I play against. However in a competitive league environment, there's nothing stopping the high elf players from securing an auto win to further their standings because that's what competitions are are they not? That doesn't make the person a bad person or someone that you should socially excommunicate, it means that they enjoy power gaming and are power gaming legally to get an easy win to further their standings because the rules let them do it.

Then you have places in the world where your gaming community might literally only be four or five people and you either play or you don't play.

Then there's the fact that every single league or campaign I've ever seen my local stores run, tend to offer up prizes for the top finishers. (usually 1st/2nd/3rd)

When there is an actual monetary value on the line, feelings & not being a power-gaming tool tend to be the last things most people will think are that important...
Espeically when everyone has had to pay an entry fee to participate.

This is true. If there's a prize involved (and most leagues have a prize) then I don't see high elf players feeling bad for locking 3/4 of their army away from the demon opponent when they play him to get the auto-win.

JWhex wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

auticus wrote:
2000 point game - high elf player tailors his list for his demon opponent.

Which then loses to most any other army.
Or is the assumption that this is not a tourney and the high elf player is just a jerk that you would not play anyway?

editing to add:
Not that I am saying the item as stated is not good, but rather that if the problem is that it makes it possible to tailor an army to curb stomp 1 particular opponent, it is not so much of a problem.

Sure, the banner has use against most any army. However, tailoring a list to abuse it to that degree leaves plenty of holes in the rest of the army.

You have like 6k posts, dont you read the threads you post in. WTF is with people repeatedly saying to use chaff when they have practically been given an online course about demons and chaff in this thread.

WTF is wrong with people that keep saying that using this banner will somehow make your army worse against a lot of other armies?

WTF is with all these noobish selfish short sighted people that DO NOT SEE THE FETHING BIG PICTURE that this isnt exclusively a demon player problem but that it is bad for the entire whfb community when one army is a hard counter for another army?

One army isn't a hard counter to another, an item is a hard counter for another army.

That 50 point banner the High elf player brought along. It does nothing to an Irongut Deathstar, or a brick of Saurus, or a Slave bus.

It also does nothing to protect against 6th spells or debuffs. Dwellers, Miasma, Mindrazor, etc... It does nothing to protect against them.


Its very situational and expensive. Meaning it won't see a ton of competitive play. I'd rather put a different banner on my unit of White Lions.

It's not expensive. It's less than 2 ogres. 10 Empire swordsman.

And it does do something because if those stars and busses have any heroes, and they often do, their magic weapons have not only become ineffective, but an actual detriment.

Situational and expensive is the tower-thing from DoC. Because only a greater daemon can take it, it costs 75, he can't get anything else if he uses it, and it makes castles, wall by wall, which you may or may not find that useful.

As I sit here reading my new high elf book, I think to myself...

"Dear Nurgle Demon Player, who uses a magic item to pull Epidemius off the board and build his tally with 3+ regen 50 man block of Plaguebearers for 4 turns... I am pleased to introduce you to my Banner of the World Dragon and Pheonix Guard with 2+ vs spells and and a 3+ ward in combat as long as my wizard succeeds in with 1 spell."

 Grey Templar wrote:

Its very situational and expensive. Meaning it won't see a ton of competitive play. I'd rather put a different banner on my unit of White Lions.

You really damage your credibility by making silly statements like this. It is far from situational and why are you even bringing up spells that test off of initiative. You do know elves have high initiative right?

The only place where it will not see a ton of competitive play is in comped tournaments.

Why do you think a banner given to a regular std bearer that protects troopers against every magic weapon equipped hero and lord character is situational? Do you play mostly against idiots that dont use combat lords against rank and file to build combat resolution? A lot of dumb things have been said in this thread but saying the banner is "just situational" is up near the top of the bone head remark list.

It is not expensive and there is no army that would not use it every time, especially if they did not have to put it on the bsb.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thunderfrog wrote:
As I sit here reading my new high elf book, I think to myself...

"Dear Nurgle Demon Player, who uses a magic item to pull Epidemius off the board and build his tally with 3+ regen 50 man block of Plaguebearers for 4 turns... I am pleased to introduce you to my Banner of the World Dragon and Pheonix Guard with 2+ vs spells and and a 3+ ward in combat as long as my wizard succeeds in with 1 spell."

Epidemius is "not in play" if he is not on the board, if people are playing that trick then they are cheating. Also a 50 man block of PB is stupidly too large to use in an Epidemius list.

Also you dont seem to understand the item because you have a 2+ ward against any attacks from demons by the banner alone. Sometimes when you think to yourself its best to keep it to yourself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

auticus wrote:

Chaff and redirecting has been working for High Elves this entire edition against similar threats, why would it not work for Daemons? This isn't meant as an attack at Daemon players BTW, even though I can see why it'd seem that way, but I'm genuinely curious.

I'll explain this one more time. Not trying to be an ass but i've said this a few times already in this thread to explain why chaff and redirecting doesn't work and it appears no one is reading it or is just dismissing it.

You are not the only one that has been explaining things that people are apparently not reading. The tactical acumen among many posters in this thread is sorrowful. They may actually be reading your explanation and not understanding it because perhaps they have heard of warhammer fantasy battle but never played it. I am beginning to think that a fair few HE players need an I win button against demons and in a poll on Warseer about 30% of the respondents think the item is "fair and balanced".

JWhex wrote:


You are not the only one that has been explaining things that people are apparently not reading. The tactical acumen among many posters in this thread is sorrowful. They may actually be reading your explanation and not understanding it because perhaps they have heard of warhammer fantasy battle but never played it. I am beginning to think that a fair few HE players need an I win button against demons and in a poll on Warseer about 30% of the respondents think the item is "fair and balanced".

Yes, High Elf players sucks and need to have unfair advantages to win. You got us. It's not as though we've routinely been playing around deathstars since the dawn of 8th or anything...

For what has to be the umpteenth time, a giant death star with BotWD won't be viable in a tournament because, just as it hard counters some lists and armies, mainly Daemons, there's hard counters to it. Life Slann will die from a heart attack laughing, Empire will turn the giant brick into target practise etc. It just isn't a well-rounded list at all.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

JWhex wrote:


You are not the only one that has been explaining things that people are apparently not reading. The tactical acumen among many posters in this thread is sorrowful. They may actually be reading your explanation and not understanding it because perhaps they have heard of warhammer fantasy battle but never played it. I am beginning to think that a fair few HE players need an I win button against demons and in a poll on Warseer about 30% of the respondents think the item is "fair and balanced".

Yes, High Elf players sucks and need to have unfair advantages to win. You got us. It's not as though we've routinely been playing around deathstars since the dawn of 8th or anything...

For what has to be the umpteenth time, a giant death star with BotWD won't be viable in a tournament because, just as it hard counters some lists and armies, mainly Daemons, there's hard counters to it. Life Slann will die from a heart attack laughing, Empire will turn the giant brick into target practise etc. It just isn't a well-rounded list at all.

For the umpteenth time +1, you dont need a giant death star, none of the people posting that have any brains have said that you do. It is only people like yourself, setting up straw man arguments that are talking about giant deathstars.

For me the beginning of 8th edition was like yesterday, it was 5th edition when the HE players started sucking with the broken army book, then they got better in 6th, we shall see what happens in 8th even though the previous Teclis was completely broken, which I suppose could explain some of the dumb tactics that have been posted.

JWhex wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

JWhex wrote:


You are not the only one that has been explaining things that people are apparently not reading. The tactical acumen among many posters in this thread is sorrowful. They may actually be reading your explanation and not understanding it because perhaps they have heard of warhammer fantasy battle but never played it. I am beginning to think that a fair few HE players need an I win button against demons and in a poll on Warseer about 30% of the respondents think the item is "fair and balanced".

Yes, High Elf players sucks and need to have unfair advantages to win. You got us. It's not as though we've routinely been playing around deathstars since the dawn of 8th or anything...

For what has to be the umpteenth time, a giant death star with BotWD won't be viable in a tournament because, just as it hard counters some lists and armies, mainly Daemons, there's hard counters to it. Life Slann will die from a heart attack laughing, Empire will turn the giant brick into target practise etc. It just isn't a well-rounded list at all.

For the umpteenth time +1, you dont need a giant death star, none of the people posting that have any brains have said that you do. It is only people like yourself, setting up straw man arguments that are talking about giant deathstars.

For me the beginning of 8th edition was like yesterday, it was 5th edition when the HE players started sucking with the broken army book, then they got better in 6th, we shall see what happens in 8th even though the previous Teclis was completely broken, which I suppose could explain some of the dumb tactics that have been posted.

If it's not in a giant death star, then what's the problem? Focus on the rest of the army.

Implying that no High Elf player knows how to play because Teclis was OP is just a staggering level of intellectual dishonesty. There's tons of people who are much better than I could ever hope to be that thrived with the old book without taking Teclis or Book of Hoeth, people who won against Death Stars they couldn't touch. You're coming across as incredibly abrasive, arrogant and, frankly, like an ass. There's not going to be any constructive work done as long as you insist on insulting everyone who doesn't agree with you.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


If it's not in a giant death star, then what's the problem? Focus on the rest of the arm

Sigh, I will explain the problem, in the most patient and polite way, once you have read this thread in its entirety. The problem has been explained by more than one poster already. So after you go back and carefully reread the thread, post here and I will do my best to explain it again.

JWhex wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


If it's not in a giant death star, then what's the problem? Focus on the rest of the arm

Sigh, I will explain the problem, in the most patient and polite way, once you have read this thread in its entirety. The problem has been explained by more than one poster already. So after you go back and carefully reread the thread, post here and I will do my best to explain it again.

Mate, get over yourself. If you can't be arsed replying to him, don't reply at all. This isn't world-weary-philosophers'-corner here.

Indeed.

If you cannot maintain a civil tone when conversing with other users then it's best that you don't post at all.

There's no need for the cheap shots and digs.

JWhex wrote:
Epidemius is "not in play" if he is not on the board, if people are playing that trick then they are cheating. Also a 50 man block of PB is stupidly too large to use in an Epidemius list.

Epidemius rules state: "Whilst Epidemius is alive..." RAW, I believe once the game begins there's only one condition that disqualifies that, and that is being dead. Sitting inside a portalglyph he's certainly not dead.

That said, it's a 75pt item on a 375pt (minimum) model. On top of Epidemius' 200pt cost. So it's not exactly cheap to do that. It's 650pts just to try it and have no benefit. You actually need a buttload of other nurgle units to make it worthwhile and your 200pt hero doesn't get to contribute other than his (very helpful) bonuses. If you're going to basically have him afk, you could spend way less points on some MC and bunker him in that and at least have the chance to do/soak some damage.

That's a true "situational" buff. Because it's 200pts flat out removed from your side and not helping in combat. +75 for the portal which only contains Epidemius. The GD who holds the portal is also short-changed because he only has a max of 25 pts to spend on stuff to help him. And the buffs apply to ALL nurgle units, friend or foe, in the game. Try and compare a banner to that.

JWhex wrote:
You have like 6k posts, dont you read the threads you post in. WTF is with people repeatedly saying to use chaff when they have practically been given an online course about demons and chaff in this thread.

I never mentioned chaff, blew off the implications of the banner in actual competitive play, or failed to read a post in a thread I have posted in.

In fact, nothing you posted seems to be related to my actual post - did you read it?

Again, if you build a crazy deathstar that can curb stomp deamons, it will probably work. Against Daemons.
It will not be horrible against other armies, but mostly it will be a problem because you tailored a list to fight deamons.

The banner will probably be a ubiquitous choice and one that causes daemons more issues than most people.
The deathstar issue with most of the army in one unit that is immune* to daemons is in the land of tailored lists, pick-up-game jerks, and longshot tourney players (as it is NOT a take-all-comers viable list).


* This is literally wrong and used by people that are trying for emotion rather than truth.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

JWhex wrote:


You are not the only one that has been explaining things that people are apparently not reading. The tactical acumen among many posters in this thread is sorrowful. They may actually be reading your explanation and not understanding it because perhaps they have heard of warhammer fantasy battle but never played it. I am beginning to think that a fair few HE players need an I win button against demons and in a poll on Warseer about 30% of the respondents think the item is "fair and balanced".

Yes, High Elf players sucks and need to have unfair advantages to win. You got us. It's not as though we've routinely been playing around deathstars since the dawn of 8th or anything...

For what has to be the umpteenth time, a giant death star with BotWD won't be viable in a tournament because, just as it hard counters some lists and armies, mainly Daemons, there's hard counters to it. Life Slann will die from a heart attack laughing, Empire will turn the giant brick into target practise etc. It just isn't a well-rounded list at all.

From my perspective let me make it quite clear that the issue is not in tournaments because in tournaments this list would get destroyed. There are, however, other viable ways of playing that don't involve tournaments that involve knowing your opponent ahead of time (campaigns, leagues, open games) that now require a social contract to exist between a demon player and a high elf player which is the root of my problem. I shouldn't have to ask Bob to not bring the banner and deathstar his white lions and the everqueen/teclis in it with the bsb to play points denial. And on top of that Bob may be of the opinion that if its legal then its perfectly fine and suck it up. That's not a game that I enjoy or want to play in from either side of the fence. I have three other fantasy armies that I'll use against high elves. My demons will stay home and as Wardhammer appears to be creeping back into the game I am looking at other systems to jump to until he's gone.

Paper/rock/scissors is not how i want my wargames to play. I want the rules to enforce some kind of balance. It doesn't have to be perfect balance, but i will not play in a game where a hard counter to another force exists to the extent that this banner does to demons. In 40k the grey knights are the equivalent to demons. No one enjoys those games either except the grey knights player saying "what... its legal... deal with it"

auticus wrote:
that now require a social contract

This is the part that baffles me.

How is this a new thing?!?

That scenario is already a reality for many other armies though, the game hasn't ended for them. For example, as a High Elf player, there's not much I can do against a Gutstar with Runemaw other than ignore it and try to work around it or hope that I built a list around Death magic so I can Purple Sun it.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

JWhex wrote:


You are not the only one that has been explaining things that people are apparently not reading. The tactical acumen among many posters in this thread is sorrowful. They may actually be reading your explanation and not understanding it because perhaps they have heard of warhammer fantasy battle but never played it. I am beginning to think that a fair few HE players need an I win button against demons and in a poll on Warseer about 30% of the respondents think the item is "fair and balanced".

Yes, High Elf players sucks and need to have unfair advantages to win. You got us. It's not as though we've routinely been playing around deathstars since the dawn of 8th or anything...

For what has to be the umpteenth time, a giant death star with BotWD won't be viable in a tournament because, just as it hard counters some lists and armies, mainly Daemons, there's hard counters to it. Life Slann will die from a heart attack laughing, Empire will turn the giant brick into target practise etc. It just isn't a well-rounded list at all.

White Lions, Phoenix Guard or Dragon Princes are the 3 units most likely to take the BotWD;
a) Lions are base S4, so already Dwellers is less of an issues because it only kills on average 33% of the unit, meaning that Slaan needs to cast it 3 times. The first 6-dice attempt he'll likely pass the miscast off due to Cupped Hands. The next two, he's running a huge risk of exploding his unit.
Lions also get the helpful +2 to their armour save vs shooting, so most of the war machines that can hurt them like Empire Mortars are again, reduced in their effectiveness. The only really scary war machine to them are Bret Trebs and O&G Rock Lobbas/Doom Divers and a grape-shooting Ogre cannon.

b) Phoenix Guard will simply be a purely pts denial build. A single High Magic spell cast by a mage in their unit means they now have a 3++. A proper supportive Lv4, (ie: Life Mage) will buff the unit to the nines. Sure they may not be killing much, but it's almost certainly pts that most opponents will not be able to take from the High Elf player, unless the dice betray someone rather badly...
Sure, Dwellers is more beneficial here, because the PG without Beast magic are only S3, but the problem then becomes, if you're in range to Dwellers the elves, they're in range to Dwellers you right back! And let's face it, that means that only other High Elves, (amuzingly enough), Lizardmen, Empire, Brets & Wood Elves have an easy counter to it... And two of those armies aren't exactly popular competitive armies now are they?!
The real winner here is adding in Teclis due to how you can completely tailor his spells to perfectly suit the unit. The question then simply becomes, 'what buffs need to go off against opponent X/Y/Z'

c) Dragon Princes are likely to become the initial popular choice IMHO because they combine speed, (being cavalry and potentially getting Ithilmar Barding), high armour saves and hitting power with multiple S5 attacks on the charge.
Giving them an instant near-immunity to almost all magical damage is a no-brainer. They can hit their intended targets with impunity due to their greater speed and thus pick the fights they really want where their shiny banner will give them the biggest advantage, while again removing alot of the counters that would have given them fits.



No one is trying to say, "OMG! BotWD = High Elves auto-win Tournament now lolz!!1!11!!!!1!"

What's attempting to be said, (and largely ignored), is that the banner is promoting;
a) Even more Deathstars - and good ones at that!
Meaning, more people will simply resort to yet more boring-@$$ spaming of the 2 main #6 spells that will auto-kill 33-50% of the unit depending on who's hiding it. Yay fun!

b) It's outright removing an entire subset of the game - namely, offensive magic and fighty characters. (who are already a rather rare sight and don't need anymore nerfing!)
Sure, some armies like Chaos Warriors or Vampire Counts don't need their Lords to carry magic weapons to be mass-murdering maniacs. But most armies do need their fighty characters to take a magic weapon to be effective. (ie: everyone else who only gets basic S4 Lords/Heroes and/or 3-4 attack Lords!)
What's even more galing, not only can High Elves render an entire unit almost immune to pretty much every combat character in the game, but they can still keep their own tooled-up fighters at the same time!
So again, dealing with a HE player who shoves their expensive T3 characters into a Banner unit means that we're back to most people just going back to 6-dicing the #6 spells and hoping for the best... Yay, more boring fun!

c) It's hard-countering 2 entire armies, and pretty much removing the shooting phase of 3 others, while also making direct damage spells even more scarce...
When people are already leaving Fantasy because they're sick and tired of deathstars and hexing to death/6-dicing the killer spells, promoting even more of that is bad for the game itself!
High Elves likely showing up to events means opponents will be thus tailoring their lists in order to better deal with it. (ie: Lv4 wizard + Lv2 + D.Scoll/Feedback Scroll & Lore of Life/Metal/Shadow) So now we're going to see even less varriation in lists, because no one wants to run into this new broken item and be unable to deal with it.
Armies like Dwarfs will have to actually make their strongest options, (ie: their runic shooting phases), worse just to deal with a banner unit.
VC's now have almost no offensive magic phase and no shooting AND their main combat character/s also can't take magic weapons anymore!
Skaven lose out almost their entire shooting phase and again, almost all of their offensive magic. (leaving them to either Dreaded 13th or Wither-Wither-laugh!)

It's just outright BAD because it's not promoting varriation, but rather simply keeping us all on the current path of stagnation because people will;
- Take the banner and abuse it.
- Build hard-counters into their lists to prepare for the threat of facing the banner.

How is this something we should be greatful for or encouraged by?
8th had been doing a fairly decent job up until these last couple of releases at trying to really promote more varried play. WoC took a step back by keeping 3++ and adding a re-roll 1's, DoC is just plain crap and likely the worst internally balanced book of all time, and now HE's are looking set to begin a brand new arms race.

JWhex wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Its very situational and expensive. Meaning it won't see a ton of competitive play. I'd rather put a different banner on my unit of White Lions.

You really damage your credibility by making silly statements like this. It is far from situational and why are you even bringing up spells that test off of initiative. You do know elves have high initiative right?

The only place where it will not see a ton of competitive play is in comped tournaments.

Why do you think a banner given to a regular std bearer that protects troopers against every magic weapon equipped hero and lord character is situational? Do you play mostly against idiots that dont use combat lords against rank and file to build combat resolution? A lot of dumb things have been said in this thread but saying the banner is "just situational" is up near the top of the bone head remark list.

It is not expensive and there is no army that would not use it every time, especially if they did not have to put it on the bsb.

Dwellers is a strength test. And yes it is situational. It does nothing against non-magical attacks or spells that disallow saves.

You can still be debuffed to uselessness and against a unit that doesn't have magic attacks you have a 50 point banner of nothing.

There are only a few armies that use combat lords to get combat resolution, the majority rely on the RnF to do the actual fighting.


This banner will counter a Red Fury Vampire, Doombull, and a tooled up Chaos Lord. And daemons of course. Other armies won't care so much. They'll fight the unit just like any other deathstar.

Its hardly a broken item.

Yeah, my Ogres, VCs, and Chaos Dwarfs are not impressed. Elves are nice and squishy. Pity the DoC players though; go heavy tzeench? You'll just have to throw enough wounds on those T3 squishies that your opponent throws ones. Personally, the DoC 5+ vs. everything annoys me so I don't mind DoC players being a little butthurt.

Thought. I haven't played the new DoC but do they still have the leadership crushing spells that circumvent MR by being "entire battlefield"?

 kirsanth wrote:

auticus wrote:
that now require a social contract

This is the part that baffles me.

How is this a new thing?!?

If i have to ask my opponent to not bring a backline of queens to our chess match because he is allowed but i am not, that is a very poor game.

For those saying the banner isnt broken, i can assume then that you would be cool with playing scenarios where your opponent can potentially put 3/4 of his army with a 2+ save against anything you can do?

Wardhammer paper rock scissors spamming #6 spell six dicing and points denial make this game a sorry joke imo. Stuff like this makes it worse.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Dwellers is a strength test. And yes it is situational. It does nothing against non-magical attacks or spells that disallow saves.

You can still be debuffed to uselessness and against a unit that doesn't have magic attacks you have a 50 point banner of nothing.

There are only a few armies that use combat lords to get combat resolution, the majority rely on the RnF to do the actual fighting.


This banner will counter a Red Fury Vampire, Doombull, and a tooled up Chaos Lord. And daemons of course. Other armies won't care so much. They'll fight the unit just like any other deathstar.

Its hardly a broken item.

- Only 5 armies in the game have access to Dwellers... So everyone else uses what now?
WoC, DoC, DE's have access to Final Trans, while Skaven have Dreaded 13th
Ogres can potentially outfight it with a Gutstar, while a VC Blender Lord without a magic weapon could potentially tip the balance. (depends entirely on the Grave Guard not whiffing)
So Dwarfs, O&G's, TK's do what now?! (hint: none of them reliably outfight WL's without the help of their fighty characters packing their magical weapons)

- You reliably need to cast 2-3 hexes to 'de-buff into uselessness the unit'. What are the High Elves doing, forgetting they have dispel dice/dispel scroll?
Again, how are DAEMONS supposed to get 2-3 hexes through when we might not even have a Lv4 of our own?! A bunch of over-costed Lv2's aren't getting jack through HE magic defenses.

- Most rank-and-file is either highly inferior to or roughly on-par with High Elf elites, especially now that Martial Prowess gives them +1 additional rank meaning the HE's can frontage-deny like champs.

I think you're seriously underestimating what the banner will do when coupled alongside all the other main buffs the High Elves have recieved...
And again, how is pretty much excluding Daemons from ever competing a good thing again?

JWhex wrote:
Banner of the World Dragon
+2 Save against Magical Attacks
stubborn for nearby dragons
50 points

LOL, brilliant design, make an item that is a hard counter against another army (demons). Wait for it. . . . Matt Ward rides again. He did the EXACT same thing with Grey Knights in 5th edition 40k, made them a hard counter to demons.

I just want to point out that Stubborn applies to friendly and enemy dragons.

I don't know if this was pointed out or not, but there it is. All Dragons (friend or foe) within 12" of the Banner of the World Dragon have the Stubborn special rule.

Dragon Stubbornness isn't a concern, I mean as long as nice large cannons are everywhere, why would I blow a buttload of points on a soon to be corpse. That 2+ though...man, who woulda thought elves could be so durable.

An almighty amount of rage for an item that has yet to be seen on the battlefield...

Seriously, try it first and see what happens. Redirectors are called that for a reason We all managed to get over the Runemaw banner or whatever it is called.

Big block of Phoenix Guard with Banner of the World Dragon and a Wizard using High magic...

3+ ward save against everything, and a 2+ ward save against spells or magic attacks.

Well played Mat Ward, well played.

 lordofthegophers wrote:
Big block of Phoenix Guard with Banner of the World Dragon and a Wizard using High magic...

3+ ward save against everything, and a 2+ ward save against spells or magic attacks.

Well played Mat Ward, well played.

Add Teclis for true silliness!

Who wants to fight S5/T6 elves with a 3++/2++ vs all magical damage?! Anyone...

 lordofthegophers wrote:
Big block of Phoenix Guard with Banner of the World Dragon and a Wizard using High magic...

3+ ward save against everything, and a 2+ ward save against spells or magic attacks.

Well played Mat Ward, well played.

I read through most of the units and some of them are pretty jaw-dropping. When did the entire HE army become about all ward saves all the time (and better than silly DoC). Phoenix Guard are basically DoC Bloodletters without KB but with ASF, +1 ward, +1 armor, bigger magic banner, and can attack in an extra rank, and cost 1 point more. That's pretty nuts.

They have so many units that give ward saves now. I mean their spell lore buffs it. In addition to having a 4d6 S4 DD signature spell. Yeah, that's totally not better than the D6 SD6 DD signature spell the god of magic gives (that also gives your enemy regen). How on earth are those things remotely equivalent? And their lvl 6 spell is pretty much better than any BRB doom spell. It's not a straight up Dwellers, but it's RIP on a unit. Not some wandering template of doom.

The banner is crazy good. It's absolutely wrong to say otherwise. You don't even have to have it on your BSB, like half a dozen units can have it just on their magic standard bearer.

The hard counter that HE is to DoC can't really be overstated. Just doing their normal routine I think HE has a way big leg-up. If HE takes even a marginal step to prepare, I can't see DoC cracking them. I mean every Daemonic unit within 12" of that one lord takes D6 S4 hits. Every round. Without casting. Lord Kroak must be pissed.

O&G and TK are feeling really weak. I thought WoC was pretty crazy (and it is). But there's so many 3+ wards and self-heals in HE. They can point deny forever. And they have some pretty killy units.

DukeRustfield wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:
Big block of Phoenix Guard with Banner of the World Dragon and a Wizard using High magic...

3+ ward save against everything, and a 2+ ward save against spells or magic attacks.

Well played Mat Ward, well played.

I read through most of the units and some of them are pretty jaw-dropping. When did the entire HE army become about all ward saves all the time (and better than silly DoC). Phoenix Guard are basically DoC Bloodletters without KB but with ASF, +1 ward, +1 armor, bigger magic banner, and can attack in an extra rank, and cost 1 point more. That's pretty nuts.

They have so many units that give ward saves now. I mean their spell lore buffs it. In addition to having a 4d6 S4 DD signature spell. Yeah, that's totally not better than the D6 SD6 DD signature spell the god of magic gives (that also gives your enemy regen). How on earth are those things remotely equivalent? And their lvl 6 spell is pretty much better than any BRB doom spell. It's not a straight up Dwellers, but it's RIP on a unit. Not some wandering template of doom.

The banner is crazy good. It's absolutely wrong to say otherwise. You don't even have to have it on your BSB, like half a dozen units can have it just on their magic standard bearer.

The hard counter that HE is to DoC can't really be overstated. Just doing their normal routine I think HE has a way big leg-up. If HE takes even a marginal step to prepare, I can't see DoC cracking them. I mean every Daemonic unit within 12" of that one lord takes D6 S4 hits. Every round. Without casting. Lord Kroak must be pissed.

O&G and TK are feeling really weak. I thought WoC was pretty crazy (and it is). But there's so many 3+ wards and self-heals in HE. They can point deny forever. And they have some pretty killy units.

It's a Ward book...
Note how most of his 40k books throughout 5th edition where pretty much +1 over most everyone else.

What's really amusing however is that he's now 3-for-3 in ruining Daemons' day since his infamous "...They should be overpowered!" comment;
- first GK's
- then their horrific 8th edition book
- High Elves

At least he's become consistant in his treatment of Daemons though!

I think it's cool and vibrant to have counters. Even hard counters like Ethereal. But there are hard counters to those counters. DoC can not make themselves non-magic attacks. They can't turn it off.

Fire against regenerating trolls negates regeneration, but trolls are still okay. And you don't HAVE to buy trolls. You have to buy daemons as DoC.

I think they didn't think that one through on the banner. And a few other things, really.

DukeRustfield wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:
Big block of Phoenix Guard with Banner of the World Dragon and a Wizard using High magic...

3+ ward save against everything, and a 2+ ward save against spells or magic attacks.

Well played Mat Ward, well played.

I read through most of the units and some of them are pretty jaw-dropping. When did the entire HE army become about all ward saves all the time (and better than silly DoC). Phoenix Guard are basically DoC Bloodletters without KB but with ASF, +1 ward, +1 armor, bigger magic banner, and can attack in an extra rank, and cost 1 point more. That's pretty nuts.

They have so many units that give ward saves now. I mean their spell lore buffs it. In addition to having a 4d6 S4 DD signature spell. Yeah, that's totally not better than the D6 SD6 DD signature spell the god of magic gives (that also gives your enemy regen). How on earth are those things remotely equivalent? And their lvl 6 spell is pretty much better than any BRB doom spell. It's not a straight up Dwellers, but it's RIP on a unit. Not some wandering template of doom.

The banner is crazy good. It's absolutely wrong to say otherwise. You don't even have to have it on your BSB, like half a dozen units can have it just on their magic standard bearer.

The hard counter that HE is to DoC can't really be overstated. Just doing their normal routine I think HE has a way big leg-up. If HE takes even a marginal step to prepare, I can't see DoC cracking them. I mean every Daemonic unit within 12" of that one lord takes D6 S4 hits. Every round. Without casting. Lord Kroak must be pissed.

O&G and TK are feeling really weak. I thought WoC was pretty crazy (and it is). But there's so many 3+ wards and self-heals in HE. They can point deny forever. And they have some pretty killy units.

Well the book will hopefully kill the delusion that there is parity among the 8th edition army books. It is not entirely surprising that the author of the 7th edition demon book would write another broken list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 John Rainbow wrote:
An almighty amount of rage for an item that has yet to be seen on the battlefield...

A large number of people have played enough warhammer to identify the expected effect of both significantly overpowering and significantly underpowered units to be able to evaluate them without playing several games. Once you have a very solid understanding of the rules, knowledge of the various armies and their capabilities and playing experience it is not terribly difficult to predict how certain things will play out.

 John Rainbow wrote:

Seriously, try it first and see what happens. Redirectors are called that for a reason

It is fairly safe to assume you have not bothered to read the other posts in the thread where this has been discussed extensively

I can't see where you are going to come across the Elfstar with 75% of its force in one block, and if its not and elfstar, just avoid it or tie it up. Do you still have the item that forces them to charge you?

You've mentioned that there are people out there who will list-tailor and happily put most of their army into one evil anti-demon block and ruin your fun. Well, yea. True. It could happen. But you know the people at your game store better than we do, and it's safe to assume that after going through that once, you just won't play that guy or you will bring something other than demons.

Two, while it is certainly true a veteran player can crunch the numbers to see exactly what he's getting out of a unit, a lot of that math falls by the wayside at local uncomped tournaments. I play a lot of them, and I usually do well by bringing what defeats my local meta. I was fortunate to play Warriors of Chaos and Tomb Kings, both of which can easily counter a lot of the current meta.

(Death stars? WoC can keep feeding redirecting marauder horsies or doggies all day. MSU? Kalida makes one dissapear every turn while the Casket makes the rest worthless.)

The point to the second rant that there is always something you can do. I don't profess to know squat about the new demons book, but are the templates dropped by the Skull Cannon and the Death-Crab magical or just flaming?

Every attack by the demon army is magical. The templates dropped by anything in the army are magical.

The stomps and thunderstomps are magical.

The impact hits are magical.

The melee attacks are all magical.

 Thunderfrog wrote:


The point to the second rant that there is always something you can do. I don't profess to know squat about the new demons book, but are the templates dropped by the Skull Cannon and the Death-Crab magical or just flaming?

Everything's magic. There's nothing that is non-magical in the Daemons book.

 Thunderfrog wrote:


I can't see where you are going to come across the Elfstar with 75% of its force in one block, and if its not and elfstar, just avoid it or tie it up. Do you still have the item that forces them to charge you?

You've mentioned that there are people out there who will list-tailor and happily put most of their army into one evil anti-demon block and ruin your fun. Well, yea. True. It could happen. But you know the people at your game store better than we do, and it's safe to assume that after going through that once, you just won't play that guy or you will bring something other than demons.

Two, while it is certainly true a veteran player can crunch the numbers to see exactly what he's getting out of a unit, a lot of that math falls by the wayside at local uncomped tournaments. I play a lot of them, and I usually do well by bringing what defeats my local meta. I was fortunate to play Warriors of Chaos and Tomb Kings, both of which can easily counter a lot of the current meta.

(Death stars? WoC can keep feeding redirecting marauder horsies or doggies all day. MSU? Kalida makes one dissapear every turn while the Casket makes the rest worthless.)

The point to the second rant that there is always something you can do. I don't profess to know squat about the new demons book, but are the templates dropped by the Skull Cannon and the Death-Crab magical or just flaming?

Absolutely EVERYTHING! Daemons do is magical now... Skillcannon shooting, thunderstomps/stomps, chariot impact hits...
Even Granddaddy Nurgle's most hienous, world-chocking, stone-melting, "It's over 9000!", mega Super-Spirit-Fart-of-Instant-Death! simply turns into the sweet smelling fresh scent of Febreeze when aimed at the Ward Dragon Banner.

Hence why we're so pissed.
It's not impossible to beat a Wardbannerstar, but doing so litterly requires a Daemon player to tailor their list in order to combat it and then rely on a hienous amount of luck to pull it off...

No matter what, a game against an Elf player throwing at least 50% of their army under the banner will not be fun in any way shape or form.

O dear, heaven forbid you change your tactics to beat it. No you don't need to tailor, you just need to alter your tactics. Man up and deal with it.

Put your effort into devising said tactics instead of useless whining.


I don't throw my hands up in the air when I see a Lvl4 Death mage across from my ogre army. I deal with it using tactics and knowledge of how Vortexes work.

 Grey Templar wrote:
O dear, heaven forbid you change your tactics to beat it. No you don't need to tailor, you just need to alter your tactics. Man up and deal with it.

Put your effort into devising said tactics instead of useless whining.

Could you name something (That actually works?)

Because otherwise, this is just useless complaining about useless whining

Avoidance is one thing that comes to mind. Not being familiar with the new daemon book I can't offer much beyond that, but I know there are ways of dealing with this. You just need to find them.

Not to be an donkey-cave but not knowing the daemon book and then trying to say that there is something to counter it is not very helpful.

When someone can offer something other than "misdirection and run away from it" i'll be all ears.

I've already written five or so lengthy replies to why misdirection doesn't work against this, because the unit doesn't need to be in combat, it just needs to lock up its points into a vault and then kill whatever is not in the vault point-wise.

So if I lock up 1500 of my 2000 points in this unit i need to kill 600 points of demons to win. I don't need my giant unit to even touch a single demon in combat, and if they are going to throw units at my big unit then all the better to get me to my 600 points to win.

auticus wrote:
Not to be an donkey-cave but not knowing the daemon book and then trying to say that there is something to counter it is not very helpful.

When someone can offer something other than "misdirection and run away from it" i'll be all ears.

I've already written five or so lengthy replies to why misdirection doesn't work against this, because the unit doesn't need to be in combat, it just needs to lock up its points into a vault and then kill whatever is not in the vault point-wise.

So if I lock up 1500 of my 2000 points in this unit i need to kill 600 points of demons to win. I don't need my giant unit to even touch a single demon in combat, and if they are going to throw units at my big unit then all the better to get me to my 600 points to win.

How is that different to any other giant deathstar though?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

auticus wrote:
Not to be an donkey-cave but not knowing the daemon book and then trying to say that there is something to counter it is not very helpful.

When someone can offer something other than "misdirection and run away from it" i'll be all ears.

I've already written five or so lengthy replies to why misdirection doesn't work against this, because the unit doesn't need to be in combat, it just needs to lock up its points into a vault and then kill whatever is not in the vault point-wise.

So if I lock up 1500 of my 2000 points in this unit i need to kill 600 points of demons to win. I don't need my giant unit to even touch a single demon in combat, and if they are going to throw units at my big unit then all the better to get me to my 600 points to win.

How is that different to any other giant deathstar though?

Because most deathstars can be 6'ed to death. High elves avoid the most common ones.

It is very similar to most deathstar tactics, which I find abhorrent. However there are several ways you can deal with a deathstar because a deathstar is typically not going to run around with a 2+ ward save to everything that you throw at it.

Allowing things like deathstars in the first place have killed this game for a lot of people that I know and trying to recruit new players is difficult because of this kind of things.

And now there's a new way to invalidate anohter army introduced which is not something I can really justify or explain away to someone looking into playing.

auticus wrote:
It is very similar to most deathstar tactics, which I find abhorrent. However there are several ways you can deal with a deathstar because a deathstar is typically not going to run around with a 2+ ward save to everything that you throw at it.

Allowing things like deathstars in the first place have killed this game for a lot of people that I know and trying to recruit new players is difficult because of this kind of things.

And now there's a new way to invalidate anohter army introduced which is not something I can really justify or explain away to someone looking into playing.

Eh to be honest, deathstars are just another new thing. There's usually something in Fantasy that's a big thing due to the rules.

I remember when Warhammer used to be called "Herohammer" for example, due to the fact that units were worthless and you spent most of your money on powerful killy HQ's due to how stupid effective they were.

I remember 5th edition too. It drove a lot of people out of the hobby.

auticus wrote:

When someone can offer something other than "misdirection and run away from it" i'll be all ears.

Um, haven't you read? L2p and man-up are the suggestions. Which are super helpful on a strategy forum.

When cheapo marauders were removed, everyone said the sky was falling and WoC were doomed and the worst army ever, people actually said, "hey, maybe you can use one of these other 30 strategies and units."

If the only suggestion for marauder-less WoC was, avoid the enemy, I think they would have room to complain.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Avoidance is one thing that comes to mind. Not being familiar with the new daemon book I can't offer much beyond that, but I know there are ways of dealing with this. You just need to find them.

You havent read the book. You havent read this thread which gives all the information about demons needed for this discussion and you havent read the detailed posts about why the avoidance strategy is fail. Yet you assert there are ways of dealing with this.

Upon reflection of the above facts can you understand why people might not take you seriously?

How do you know there are ways, is it faith in humankind? Is it faith in GW rule writers? I am just curious how you know this.

I've never got over this internet idea that whoever writes a book must have complete and total control over anything he puts in to it. That GW just hands it over and says 'surprise us!'

Ward is responsible for assembling the bits and piecs, for fluff and possibly for overall direction. But there'll be a dozen guys at least throwing in ideas and helping shape the concept for the book, and whatever he puts up in terms of game balance will have to get past Jervis Johnson and the rest of the strategic direction team. I mean, did you think Ward writes a book, gives half the units total immunity to everything and sits back telling everyone how clever he is because his new book is now the biggest selling book, while the GW suits all sit their spinning on their swivel chairs doing coke by the truckload?

Point being, when GW has put out broken stuff... GW has put out broken stuff. When they've put out good books GW put out good books. All this internet nonsense about picking one internet whipping boy and trying to dump on him is silly. They don't farm out major parts of the game to some guy and just hopes he doesn't release something that ruins the whole thing.


As for this item, well I don't know and you don't either. Typically when books have contained broken stuff it has taken months for it to be found and exploited properly. The best Empire lists are only really now getting settled on, and there's every chance we might still find some truly broken nonsense in the Warriors of Chaos and Daemons books. Trying to declare what is brokenly unplayable when the book is just rumours or when its just been released is almost always wrong.

Sure, it's not Ward alone who writes the codex / army book.

But it's kinda weird that it's always Mat Ward writing trash codices / army books or at least ones with terrible internal balance.

I don't think HE have bad internal balance. The external balance is debatable, but that banner is pretty much auto-include. Was looking at Ulthuan and one of their major tactica threads advocates using it with, you guessed it, white lions.

Was mainly referring to Codex: Necrons and Codex: Grey Knights as reference for Mat Ward being a *horribe* codex writer. I don't think we can get a valid verdict on the new HE yet regarding (internal) balance.

I swear to god, if GW uses this as an excuse to have allies taken...

Experiment 626 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Experiment 626 Wait where are you getting 3++ mundane from 3+ shooting 2++ magic ward I get but even if you have Alarielle her ward doesn't work in combat.

Anointed of Asuryam give you a 6++ but you have to get 3 spells off to get that to a 3++

IIRC, Alarielle's Shieldstone of Isha is simply a 5+ ward vs all non-magical attacks. I've seen nothing yet, (rumors or confirmations), saying it's only of use outside of combat - just blanket 5++ vs mundane attacks...
That means she only needs to cast 2 High Magic spells to give her unit a 3++, since the High Magic lore attribute stacks existing ward saves upto a max of 3++.

Okay Just curious


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

- Only 5 armies in the game have access to Dwellers... So everyone else uses what now?
WoC, DoC, DE's have access to Final Trans, while Skaven have Dreaded 13th

(which is far better than any other killy spell IMHO. Also Plague wrecks Elves)

Experiment 626 wrote:
Ogres can potentially outfight it with a Gutstar, while a VC Blender Lord without a magic weapon could potentially tip the balance. (depends entirely on the Grave Guard not whiffing)

Yeah these are both quite true and not even a contest

Experiment 626 wrote:
So Dwarfs, O&G's, TK's do what now?! (hint: none of them reliably outfight WL's without the help of their fighty characters packing their magical weapons)

Ummm have you heard of a skeleton tarpit it will keep the lions stuck for a long time. Savage Orks can hold there own against them. Dwarves will be fine so long as you have enough. WL are extremely killy but they only have 1 A ohh and without re-rolls they only hit 66% of the time on average so a bus can really be a problem for them.

Experiment 626 wrote:
- You reliably need to cast 2-3 hexes to 'de-buff into uselessness the unit'. What are the High Elves doing, forgetting they have dispel dice/dispel scroll?
Again, how are DAEMONS supposed to get 2-3 hexes through when we might not even have a Lv4 of our own?! A bunch of over-costed Lv2's aren't getting jack through HE magic defenses.

- Most rank-and-file is either highly inferior to or roughly on-par with High Elf elites, especially now that Martial Prowess gives them +1 additional rank meaning the HE's can frontage-deny like champs.

I think you're seriously underestimating what the banner will do when coupled alongside all the other main buffs the High Elves have recieved...
And again, how is pretty much excluding Daemons from ever competing a good thing again?

I think you are being shrill and angry when in 95% of games the banner is meaningless. I used it in my 21 white lions this weekend. guess what it made no difference. Most High Elves players will tell you yes this is useful and yes we will use it however most of us aren't taking Allarielle ( Her banner is for life not high magic s o any list intending to take advantage of her ward is going to use High Spell, and as mentioned she is minus 1d3 to cast if demons are within 12".) I will take my Level 4 Archmage over that any time.

I have now played against the mat ward banner. I was using my mounted tzeentch warriors list. My giant block of knights killed maybe one or two white lions a turn. If I hadn't gotten my Chimera in their flank I'd probably still be there. And this is against someone who isn't a jerk! This banner is just plain silly in the wrong hands. Unfortunately, all the TFGs I know play he.

Seriously, the number of attacks necessary to beat a death Star would be outrageous. So much for playing daemons...

Honestly, the unit that scares me the most with this banner is the dragon princes. Nine inch movement with great armor and equally as good ward saves? They can choose their battles and not much will kill them.

 spyguyyoda wrote:
I have now played against the mat ward banner. I was using my mounted tzeentch warriors list. My giant block of knights killed maybe one or two white lions a turn. If I hadn't gotten my Chimera in their flank I'd probably still be there. And this is against someone who isn't a jerk! This banner is just plain silly in the wrong hands. Unfortunately, all the TFGs I know play he.

Seriously, the number of attacks necessary to beat a death Star would be outrageous. So much for playing daemons...

Honestly, the unit that scares me the most with this banner is the dragon princes. Nine inch movement with great armor and equally as good ward saves? They can choose their battles and not much will kill them.

Apart from the normal mundane heavy cav killers, you mean...

 Sigvatr wrote:
Sure, it's not Ward alone who writes the codex / army book.

But it's kinda weird that it's always Mat Ward writing trash codices / army books or at least ones with terrible internal balance.

I'm sorry? What about Phil "Take this OBVIOUSLY OP UNIT" kelly? The Kelly who wrote 4th edition Eldar Skimmerspam? The guy whose internal balance problems produces half a usable dex, half useless, and with one or two MUST TAKE UNITS like Space Wolves?

Or Robin Cruddances. "This army must be underpowered!" Fad, who sharply shifts any balance towards new units, or just has horrible balance overall?

Course at this rate I only really trust Vetocks work to be balanced in some measure, sure he's got one or two bad units once in a while but overall his work is very, very solid.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Sure, it's not Ward alone who writes the codex / army book.

But it's kinda weird that it's always Mat Ward writing trash codices / army books or at least ones with terrible internal balance.

I'm sorry? What about Phil "Take this OBVIOUSLY OP UNIT" kelly? The Kelly who wrote 4th edition Eldar Skimmerspam? The guy whose internal balance problems produces half a usable dex, half useless, and with one or two MUST TAKE UNITS like Space Wolves?

Or Robin Cruddances. "This army must be underpowered!" Fad, who sharply shifts any balance towards new units, or just has horrible balance overall?

Course at this rate I only really trust Vetocks work to be balanced in some measure, sure he's got one or two bad units once in a while but overall his work is very, very solid.

For the umpteenth time, Kelly had the entire 4th ed Eldar codex re-written on him at the last minute while he was away on vacation!
If you're still butt-hurt over that book, blame Jervis and co. because they went with a very last minute shift in the overall design of the entire codex and then did silly things with it!

And every single author has had 1 bad book. Space Wolves were Kelly's feth-up.
But he's still got Orks, Dark Eldar and the new Chaos books to his name which are all fairly well balanced books, both internally and externally. (and you can never have true 100% balance - there will always be a terd unit or two and one or two choices that are alightly above everything else, no matter who the author is...)
And in Fantasy he's got VC's which alongside Empire are both the outright best balanced books of 8th. (Orcs & Gobbos lose out because their magic items are pretty damn poop...)

Ward on the other hand?
Yeah, he's got Vanilla Marines which are great. Everything else was either a notch above, or else a complete and utter terd right from day one because he didn't give a flying monkey fart for the project...

 rapterz wrote:
I don't think HE have bad internal balance. The external balance is debatable, but that banner is pretty much auto-include. Was looking at Ulthuan and one of their major tactica threads advocates using it with, you guessed it, white lions.

The same thread thad advocates pretty much anything, since it's a thread about the new stuff? Trying to paint all High Elf players as cheesemongers without mentioning that crucial detail is a bit dishonest (if that wasn't your intention I apologise, but that's how it read to me).

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 rapterz wrote:
I don't think HE have bad internal balance. The external balance is debatable, but that banner is pretty much auto-include. Was looking at Ulthuan and one of their major tactica threads advocates using it with, you guessed it, white lions.

The same thread thad advocates pretty much anything, since it's a thread about the new stuff? Trying to paint all High Elf players as cheesemongers without mentioning that crucial detail is a bit dishonest (if that wasn't your intention I apologise, but that's how it read to me).

Rereading what I wrote, I understand where you're coming from. Your right over all, but my point was to illustrate that the banner is already being included in all theoryhammer that is processed. Still, It doesn't deter me from playing fantasy, but I still feel bad for any new players that wanna pick daemons up.

Can always allow the Tamurkhan great host rules. That lets demons take warriors and beastmen in their army.

 captain collius wrote:
Most High Elves players will tell you yes this is useful and yes we will use it however most of us aren't taking Allarielle ( Her banner is for life not high magic s o any list intending to take advantage of her ward is going to use High Spell, and as mentioned she is minus 1d3 to cast if demons are within 12".) I will take my Level 4 Archmage over that any time.

-D3 to cast! OMG that's uber! But wait a sec, she does D6 S4 hits to every single daemon unit in range without her doing anything. I would gladly make that trade in any army in existence. -D3 to cast if any empire within 12" but do D6 S4 hits to every empire unit within 12". It's a free, undispellable attack every round. And for those who keep saying(!) chaff and redirect, if it's just a couple models, they will die just getting in range.

Can always allow the Tamurkhan great host rules. That lets demons take warriors and beastmen in their army.

Screw that, just use Tamurkhan and his toad dragon.

For the umpteenth time, Kelly had the entire 4th ed Eldar codex re-written on him at the last minute while he was away on vacation!

You've said this before, but every time I've asked for a source, you've ignored me. So can you please provide a source for this claim.

 sebster wrote:

I mean, did you think Ward writes a book, gives half the units total immunity to everything and sits back telling everyone how clever he is because his new book is now the biggest selling book, while the GW suits all sit their spinning on their swivel chairs doing coke by the truckload?

Thats a pretty clear representation of exactly what i think happens. Then I imagine that eventually the poor bastard at GW that still gives a damn will go back and tearfully try to save his hobby and beg the white powder noised execs to let him/her write a FAQ that saves the game for another edition.

I see a FAQ coming up in the near future to hopefully give DoC some change against a BotWD star. Although I don't know what that FAQ would be.

Also two things
1) It doesn't have by any means be a star with the BotWD to destroy a demon army. Just give the banner to a small group and march it right up the middle tarpitting whatever seems the most useful while the rest of the army mops up.

2) To people saying that they will speed bump the unit with BotWD to death... its a very good thing that HE don't have incrediable shooting armies and fantastic chaff units that excel at taking out other chaff units (Eagles, reavers) or this might be very difficult. Yep real good thing.

Btw - I'm not a DoC player whining. I'm a high elf player saying the army is very strong as it is without the BotWD.

 Sasori wrote:

For the umpteenth time, Kelly had the entire 4th ed Eldar codex re-written on him at the last minute while he was away on vacation!

You've said this before, but every time I've asked for a source, you've ignored me. So can you please provide a source for this claim.

He told me himself at the 2006 Toronto Games Day.
And he was still rather sore and hurt about it and this was about 3 months after he came back from his sabbatical.

That design style of course died after the massive community outrage over how bland and watered down Chaos Marines became.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

For the umpteenth time, Kelly had the entire 4th ed Eldar codex re-written on him at the last minute while he was away on vacation!

You've said this before, but every time I've asked for a source, you've ignored me. So can you please provide a source for this claim.

He told me himself at the 2006 Toronto Games Day.
And he was still rather sore and hurt about it and this was about 3 months after he came back from his sabbatical.

That design style of course died after the massive community outrage over how bland and watered down Chaos Marines became.

Yeah, so you don't really have any verifiable source, except yourself. Yeah, not good enough.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

For the umpteenth time, Kelly had the entire 4th ed Eldar codex re-written on him at the last minute while he was away on vacation!

You've said this before, but every time I've asked for a source, you've ignored me. So can you please provide a source for this claim.

He told me himself at the 2006 Toronto Games Day.
And he was still rather sore and hurt about it and this was about 3 months after he came back from his sabbatical.

That design style of course died after the massive community outrage over how bland and watered down Chaos Marines became.

So of course you actually have no proof behind it...

I honestly should've seen that one coming.

So yeah, until proof, not hearsay is given, he wrote a gamebreaking book.

I'm doing a demon battle against high elves with this banner this weekend. He is using dragon princes with it, not a bunker of FTW.

We'll see how it goes.

 Sasori wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

For the umpteenth time, Kelly had the entire 4th ed Eldar codex re-written on him at the last minute while he was away on vacation!

You've said this before, but every time I've asked for a source, you've ignored me. So can you please provide a source for this claim.

He told me himself at the 2006 Toronto Games Day.
And he was still rather sore and hurt about it and this was about 3 months after he came back from his sabbatical.

That design style of course died after the massive community outrage over how bland and watered down Chaos Marines became.

Yeah, so you don't really have any verifiable source, except yourself. Yeah, not good enough.

Its good enough for me because you dont see 626 posting a lot of rumours or name dropping on other topics. You are basically calling 626 a liar which is extremely rude and uncalled for.

I also dont see how 626 gains any advantage for defending a developer on a single book when she knows that by doing so she will be exposing herself to nerdragers.

JWhex wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

For the umpteenth time, Kelly had the entire 4th ed Eldar codex re-written on him at the last minute while he was away on vacation!

You've said this before, but every time I've asked for a source, you've ignored me. So can you please provide a source for this claim.

He told me himself at the 2006 Toronto Games Day.
And he was still rather sore and hurt about it and this was about 3 months after he came back from his sabbatical.

That design style of course died after the massive community outrage over how bland and watered down Chaos Marines became.

Yeah, so you don't really have any verifiable source, except yourself. Yeah, not good enough.

Its good enough for me because you dont see 626 posting a lot of rumours or name dropping on other topics. You are basically calling 626 a liar which is extremely rude and uncalled for.

I also dont see how 626 gains any advantage for defending a developer on a single book when she knows that by doing so she will be exposing herself to nerdragers.

+1

JWhex wrote:


Its good enough for me because you dont see 626 posting a lot of rumours or name dropping on other topics. You are basically calling 626 a liar which is extremely rude and uncalled for.

Nowhere does he call him a liar. Read posts you comment on.

626 is making claims based on information that cannot be verified. The information therefore is unreliable. I could claim that Mat Ward told me that he purposefully makes army books that are "perceived as too strong" in order to "challenge and change" the "currently dominating meta". He told it to me personally after the Q&A at GD 2007.

See, I can do it too. Unreliable information isn't worth a lot when used in discussions...everyone can make such claims, be it in good or bad intention.

While your intentions are valid, the statement comes off as "you are lying", or can be perceived as such.

To make it not suggest that you can simply say "personal anecdotes cannot be taken for concrete information"

 Sigvatr wrote:

JWhex wrote:


Its good enough for me because you dont see 626 posting a lot of rumours or name dropping on other topics. You are basically calling 626 a liar which is extremely rude and uncalled for.

Nowhere does he call him a liar. Read posts you comment on.

626 is making claims based on information that cannot be verified. The information therefore is unreliable. I could claim that Mat Ward told me that he purposefully makes army books that are "perceived as too strong" in order to "challenge and change" the "currently dominating meta". He told it to me personally after the Q&A at GD 2007.

See, I can do it too. Unreliable information isn't worth a lot when used in discussions...everyone can make such claims, be it in good or bad intention.

This is exactly it.

 Sigvatr wrote:

JWhex wrote:


Its good enough for me because you dont see 626 posting a lot of rumours or name dropping on other topics. You are basically calling 626 a liar which is extremely rude and uncalled for.

Nowhere does he call him a liar. Read posts you comment on.

626 is making claims based on information that cannot be verified. The information therefore is unreliable. I could claim that Mat Ward told me that he purposefully makes army books that are "perceived as too strong" in order to "challenge and change" the "currently dominating meta". He told it to me personally after the Q&A at GD 2007.

See, I can do it too. Unreliable information isn't worth a lot when used in discussions...everyone can make such claims, be it in good or bad intention.

+1

Not that it really matters, if only one knows it, it's an unverified source.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

JWhex wrote:


Its good enough for me because you dont see 626 posting a lot of rumours or name dropping on other topics. You are basically calling 626 a liar which is extremely rude and uncalled for.

Nowhere does he call him a liar. Read posts you comment on.

626 is making claims based on information that cannot be verified. The information therefore is unreliable. I could claim that Mat Ward told me that he purposefully makes army books that are "perceived as too strong" in order to "challenge and change" the "currently dominating meta". He told it to me personally after the Q&A at GD 2007.

See, I can do it too. Unreliable information isn't worth a lot when used in discussions...everyone can make such claims, be it in good or bad intention.

+1

Not that it really matters, if only one knows it, it's an unverified source.

I honestly don't care if you think I'm making it up or not.
Phil's a friend and the odd time he does get over to this area if, he's got time we'll hang out a bit. Hell, he'll still rub it in to me how when he was on that sabbatical, he unknowingly ended up seeing my fav band in concert while I can't ever go to any of their shows! (too much bass & loud noise doesn't go so well when you've suffered repeated serious head trauma...)
Of course, I'll just shoot back about how I got to hang out with a couple of the more minor LotR actors for three days during a LotR convention!

But this is what he told me during that event, he was still pretty upset about it and I didn't push him at all to explain why the design shift occurred because I was more interested in hanging out, sharing some beers & having fun explaining why play-off hockey is almost a religion along with a couple of other friends who were volunteering for Games Day.

I can't say I am really that worried about the BOTWD.

As an ogre player, if I can't kill a bunch of t3, 5+ save elves without using magic attacks then I have a problem.

Even if the banner is taken with dragon princes, t3 knights are not a problem for ogres generally.

Well this does sound pretty broken against Daemons.

50 points for almost total immunity to all magical attacks which don't disallow ward saves is way too cheap.

Luckily my Dark Elves don't rely on magical attacks and with the High Elf ASF no longer overriding normal rules for great weapons (and so striking at initiative without re-rolls), my Corsairs and Witch Elves would have a field day. Finally Eternal Hatred can be more useful than the High Elf ASF.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Luckily my Dark Elves don't rely on magical attacks and with the High Elf ASF no longer overriding normal rules for great weapons

Doesn't Mindrazor make the attacks magical?

 Sigvatr wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Luckily my Dark Elves don't rely on magical attacks and with the High Elf ASF no longer overriding normal rules for great weapons

Doesn't Mindrazor make the attacks magical?

No, I don't believe so. Makes you use LD instead of S, no mention of making the attacks magical. There's another spell which says that it makes the attacks magical (been mentioned somewhere in this thread I believe) so I think it's something which has to be specifically stated.

Fluff-wise Mindrazor doesn't do anything to the weapons, just makes the users thought process so fast that they can pinpoint weak points on the enemy but fluff and rules don't always match up.

Even without Mindrazor that bunker unit could be ground down with Dark Elves. Witch Elves with Cauldron Support for extra attacks would strike first and with poison could force lots of saves whilst being Stubborn from being near the Cauldron (which is often a BSB)

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Luckily my Dark Elves don't rely on magical attacks and with the High Elf ASF no longer overriding normal rules for great weapons

Doesn't Mindrazor make the attacks magical?

No, I don't believe so. Makes you use LD instead of S, no mention of making the attacks magical. There's another spell which says that it makes the attacks magical (been mentioned somewhere in this thread I believe) so I think it's something which has to be specifically stated.

Fluff-wise Mindrazor doesn't do anything to the weapons, just makes the users thought process so fast that they can pinpoint weak points on the enemy but fluff and rules don't always match up.

Even without Mindrazor that bunker unit could be ground down with Dark Elves. Witch Elves with Cauldron Support for extra attacks would strike first and with poison could force lots of saves whilst being Stubborn from being near the Cauldron (which is often a BSB)

IIRC, only Enchanted Blades of Abian from Metal and Flaming Swords of Rhuin from Fire specifically grant the unit magic attacks.



And yes, Daemons are truly f***ed against the Skill Banner...

Consider something like;
Lv4 w/Book + Shadow or Life magic
Lv2 w/Dispel Scrol + High Magic
BSB
3x 6 Reavers
9-15 Silverhelms
21-30 White Lions w/Skill Banner
21-30 Phoenix Guard
2x Bolt Throwers
2x Frosthearts

So realistically, the Daemon player's only 'easy' pts to obtain in such a list would be the Reavers and Bolt Throwers...
Those characters will certainly be hiding behind the banner, while the PG are already a solid pts denial unit, made even more so by the use of either Shadow or Life magic and can be granted a 3++ should the be targeted by a single High Magic spell.
And those Frosthearts running alongside the Healms + PG add even more nerfs to any Daemonic units they hit...


Banner of the World Ending Dragon is thus far, the single stupidest and most borked item we've yet seen in 8th.

I've played my demons vs the skill banner and yes I was stomped pretty hard.

Have taken on the white lion point-denial-of-ultimate-skill-and-power list (white lions bunkered with skill banner, everqueen, bsb, a level 2 floating around somewhere, some spearmen and archers for core and a pair of bolt throwers) and then took on the dragon prince version of the skill banner.

Both against demons can die in a fire

auticus wrote:
I've played my demons vs the skill banner and yes I was stomped pretty hard.

Have taken on the white lion point-denial-of-ultimate-skill-and-power list (white lions bunkered with skill banner, everqueen, bsb, a level 2 floating around somewhere, some spearmen and archers for core and a pair of bolt throwers) and then took on the dragon prince version of the skill banner.

Both against demons can die in a fire

So according to what seems like the vast majority of High Elf players, I guess it's still our fault and we Daemons players just need to l2p...

Because 50pts to neuter our already nerfed new army book is "well balanced" and nothing to get all bent out of shape over!

auticus wrote:
I've played my demons vs the skill banner and yes I was stomped pretty hard.

Have taken on the white lion point-denial-of-ultimate-skill-and-power list (white lions bunkered with skill banner, everqueen, bsb, a level 2 floating around somewhere, some spearmen and archers for core and a pair of bolt throwers) and then took on the dragon prince version of the skill banner.

Both against demons can die in a fire

Yeah both is very harsh, I wouldnt bother playing that list a second time.

The only thing that the HE book has going for it, is I hope a very short life span. There are rumours from very reliable people that 9th edition is going to reset all the army books and invalidate the 8th edition army books in one fell sweep like 6th edition did to 5th edition.

It is just a rumour of course but HAstings is pretty accurate overall so I wouldnt bet against it.

Maybe we will get lucky and this will get rid of the crap demon book and the HE book at one time.

Experiment 626 wrote:

auticus wrote:
I've played my demons vs the skill banner and yes I was stomped pretty hard.

Have taken on the white lion point-denial-of-ultimate-skill-and-power list (white lions bunkered with skill banner, everqueen, bsb, a level 2 floating around somewhere, some spearmen and archers for core and a pair of bolt throwers) and then took on the dragon prince version of the skill banner.

Both against demons can die in a fire

So according to what seems like the vast majority of High Elf players, I guess it's still our fault and we Daemons players just need to l2p...

Because 50pts to neuter our already nerfed new army book is "well balanced" and nothing to get all bent out of shape over!

I think it doesn't matter what faction it is, players of a faction love a broken item or broken combo because it lets them win tournaments / games easier. We pay lip-service to balance but in reality it is imbalance that makes people happy so long as they are on the side that gets the crutch. That's not just high elf players. Demon players of 7th edition gloated and sung the l2p song too. Grey Knights players in 40k sing it. Necron players sing it. Space Wolves players sing it. In the 90s, high elf players sang it when they had a busted army book for 5th edition.

Many players don't want balance. They want something that they can game and exploit and add to their trophy collection with. The high elf forums erupting with laughter, guffawing and the l2p song are a reflection of that. I think that the designers at GW are well aware of this as well and know how to sell the game well.

I'm slowly getting off of the warhammer wagon. I loved the game and loved the time I've put into it... going on two decades now... but I can't stand imbalance of this nature. I'll write my own system and entertain myself in my garage with it lol

auticus wrote:


I think it doesn't matter what faction it is, players of a faction love a broken item or broken combo because it lets them win tournaments / games easier. We pay lip-service to balance but in reality it is imbalance that makes people happy so long as they are on the side that gets the crutch. That's not just high elf players. Demon players of 7th edition gloated and sung the l2p song too. Grey Knights players in 40k sing it. Necron players sing it. Space Wolves players sing it. In the 90s, high elf players sang it when they had a busted army book for 5th edition.

Sadly, this.

I play an army (Dark Elves) considered (rightly) to have elements which are undercosted for what they can do, with Hydras, Sacrificial Dagger and the Pendant of Khaeleth right at the top. However these choices don't provide almost total immunity against an entire army to a whole unit. Admittedly our magic can be ridiculous with huge potential for power dice generation and no limit on the number of dice to cast a spell. Sure it's fun for me to watch my Corsairs butcher an entire horde of pretty much anything thanks to Mindrazor (had a unit of 28 Corsairs go through 3 units of Chaos Warriors with Mark of Tzeentch in a tournament once, had 4 Corsairs left at the end of the game but they were still Frenzied) but that isn't fun to play against, especially not in a casual game. So with that in mind sometimes I take a Level 4 Dark Sorceress instead. Sure the lore is still powerful but it's less of an "I win" button than Mindrazor.

If anything the people using the Banner should be the ones to "l2p". If they're such tactical and strategic masters as to judge other peoples abilities in the game then surely they could win without it? Why not test their abilities to the fullest rather than take the easy option?

auticus wrote:

I think it doesn't matter what faction it is, players of a faction love a broken item or broken combo because it lets them win tournaments / games easier. We pay lip-service to balance but in reality it is imbalance that makes people happy so long as they are on the side that gets the crutch. That's not just high elf players. Demon players of 7th edition gloated and sung the l2p song too. Grey Knights players in 40k sing it. Necron players sing it. Space Wolves players sing it. In the 90s, high elf players sang it when they had a busted army book for 5th edition.

Many players don't want balance. They want something that they can game and exploit and add to their trophy collection with. The high elf forums erupting with laughter, guffawing and the l2p song are a reflection of that. I think that the designers at GW are well aware of this as well and know how to sell the game well.

I'm slowly getting off of the warhammer wagon. I loved the game and loved the time I've put into it... going on two decades now... but I can't stand imbalance of this nature. I'll write my own system and entertain myself in my garage with it lol

Sadly this is oh so true, at least in general.
I will say though that for every person who thinks like this, there's at least one who doesn't give a flying rat's fart and will steer clear of the broken crap.

Myself, I gave-up on the tournament scene a few years ago because it was just nothing but the above mentality all around... First High Elf players laughing it up with their super-ASF, then VC players bragging about how godly their new book was with it's pts denial style of play, then the Daemon bandwagon that was then followed by Dark Elves, Lizzies and then WoC shinanigans.
Just made me sick to see nothing but massive trolling going on in an effort to simply win at all costs...



Instead of giving up Warhammer though, I now simply play Fantasy with a couple of friends.

One of them for example plays Wood Elves, and what we've done is simply said, 'all Forest Spirits have a 5+ ward save.' Now he has the tools to play close fought games even against VC's or Daemons.
Likewise, when he borrowed my new Daemon book to give it a read through, he simply laughed after giving it back to me and said, 'just use your real book and f*** this crap!', because I was never abusive with the old book anyways... (I play mono-Tzeentch and always used a Loremaster Fire Daemon Prince under the 7th ed book, while only using a Life Tzherald on occasion because it just became so boring otherwise)

Doing this, we still have a group of about 4-5 of us who can still readily enjoy playing Fantasy, and we can simply ignore all the non-sense and silliness of Boringhammer being filled up with Gutstars, unkillable Nurgle Princes, Scream spam, Slaanstars, 6-dicing FTW #6 spells, new Skill Banner, etc...

If anything the people using the Banner should be the ones to "l2p". If they're such tactical and strategic masters as to judge other peoples abilities in the game then surely they could win without it? Why not test their abilities to the fullest rather than take the easy option?

The easy option gives you golden trophies, espn sponsorships, nerd illustrated cover shots, and the knowledge that you can gloat online about how great you are while people over the internet sing your praises.

The difficult option gives you the internal satisfaction of knowing you played a harder game and did well, but likely won't give you the glittering trophies and the chicks and the nerd illustrated covers.

Easy mode also gets you gold plated shark tanks.

I love gold plated shark tanks.

When they are saying "l2p", it is code for "its my turn to have an army that has broken things in it", which contradicts the arguments for how we want a balanced game. We don't. (I am being very general here yes I know there are people that want balance). Those same people would be pooping their diapers if say the skill banner never existed and then the dark elves came out with a golden cod piece that gave it and its unit a 2++ ward save against anything the high elves could do to them (and rightfully so, something like that is not fun or entertaining unless you are on the right side of it) and those same people would never in their wildest dreams acknowledge to play in a scenario where one of their opponent's units and all of the characters within got a 2+ ward against anything they could do, but they are happy to dance around and chuckle when they can do it.

And what do many people do when their army gets the demon treatment? They shelve their army and pick up one of the broken ones so that they can "win". That's why 40k is full of necron and grey knights players. Fantasy is doing better as its factions seem for the most part to be even but you don't see a lot of the low tier armies ever because no one wants to play a game that challenges them, they want as easy a time as possible winning.

auticus wrote:

Many players don't want balance. They want something that they can game and exploit and add to their trophy collection with.

This is all gaming of all kinds. It is well-documented that people follow sports teams that are more successful. Yankees, Lakers, Arsenal, ManU. When their fortunes change you see the fair weather fans leave.

One of my first rules as a programmer I came up with was, "don't rely on your users for the integrity of your systems." Because if users have a way to cheat or make it 1% faster even if it completely breaks what they are using, they will do it. And some of my earliest online gaming, people would use bots and hacks of all kinds. I could never understand why someone would use an aimbot hack where they aren't even playing. They are sitting there as a spectator in their own game. But the point was, they were "winning." And that's good enough for a lot of people. Even if it completely ruins the game.

As for the banner, I was looking through DoC last night and I think the one "strategy" that can pretty much always beat it is simply Kairos. Using the Light/Heavens/Life/Metal head + Tz. You can potentially drop 2 mega spells on him a turn and do other nasty stuff like cast Net of Am and Glean Magic. Concentrating on Life you can heal yourself and you have a reroll. Put a bunch of Screamers or Beasts or such in front of you and you're immune to cannons. Blue scribes, changeling, herald and a few horror units will give you some channel dice. It's kind of boring, but it's trying to counter a boring build.

That is very true and good points. You only hear about the sports teams from people whose teams are doing very well. That doesn't surprise me that that follows into wargaming or any type of gaming really.

auticus wrote:
That is very true and good points. You only hear about the sports teams from people whose teams are doing very well. That doesn't surprise me that that follows into wargaming or any type of gaming really.

Leafs Nation will always disagree with you on that one!
46 years of losing (or outright laughing stock of the entire league), and yet, their arena is still packed every single home game...

I guess that makes those of us who loyally stick by our chosen army even when we're not full of filthy, broken combos distant cousins or something?!

lol it makes you not the average sports fan.

I know where I am from (rabid college basketball country) that everyone is a basketball fan when the teams are doing well and when they are not doing well you hear not a peep.

Also we seem to have a lot of New England Patriots fans and I live very far away from Boston...

I've played chaos pretty much non stop since 2000 even when they weren't the best so I understand what it is to stick by your army. I am also a Miami Dolphins fan since 1984... and if you know anything about NFL football the Dolphins havent been a relevant team since the 80s.

auticus wrote:

I've played chaos pretty much non stop since 2000 even when they weren't the best so I understand what it is to stick by your army. I am also a Miami Dolphins fan since 1984... and if you know anything about NFL football the Dolphins havent been a relevant team since the 80s.

The Dolphins aren't epic enough though to have the luxury of their team name poetically describing their situation, unlike;
Lossers
Even
After
Forty-six
Seasons
(mind you, this only works until 59, after which, we're pooped!)

Now to come up something equally as witty to describe Daemons and our current book...

auticus wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

auticus wrote:
I've played my demons vs the skill banner and yes I was stomped pretty hard.

Have taken on the white lion point-denial-of-ultimate-skill-and-power list (white lions bunkered with skill banner, everqueen, bsb, a level 2 floating around somewhere, some spearmen and archers for core and a pair of bolt throwers) and then took on the dragon prince version of the skill banner.

Both against demons can die in a fire

So according to what seems like the vast majority of High Elf players, I guess it's still our fault and we Daemons players just need to l2p...

Because 50pts to neuter our already nerfed new army book is "well balanced" and nothing to get all bent out of shape over!

I think it doesn't matter what faction it is, players of a faction love a broken item or broken combo because it lets them win tournaments / games easier. We pay lip-service to balance but in reality it is imbalance that makes people happy so long as they are on the side that gets the crutch. That's not just high elf players. Demon players of 7th edition gloated and sung the l2p song too. Grey Knights players in 40k sing it. Necron players sing it. Space Wolves players sing it. In the 90s, high elf players sang it when they had a busted army book for 5th edition.

Many players don't want balance. They want something that they can game and exploit and add to their trophy collection with. The high elf forums erupting with laughter, guffawing and the l2p song are a reflection of that. I think that the designers at GW are well aware of this as well and know how to sell the game well.

I'm slowly getting off of the warhammer wagon. I loved the game and loved the time I've put into it... going on two decades now... but I can't stand imbalance of this nature. I'll write my own system and entertain myself in my garage with it lol

Umm I post on Ulthuan.net and am yet to see any l2p threads gloating at our newfound op-ness. Afaik ulthuan is the premier WFB high elf forum so if there aren't posts on the subject there then where? The only crutch anyone over there is talking about is the 7th ed re-rolls on GW that has just been kicked out from under us lol. Now I'm not defending the use of BotWD against daemons but insinuating that a particular online community has nothing better to do than sit around revelling in their superiority in one particular match-up is frankly insulting and puerile, especially when it isn't actually happening, sure some elf generals who have learned to re direct and out manoeuvre things that would crush them in a straight up fight are suggesting that daemon players look for other methods before shouting cheese, but I assure you the forum has better things to discuss than daemons players and how much we can now own them! In fact most people are saying that a BotWD deathstar v daemons is bad play and shouldn't be taken.