So not long ago I created a thread asking the general public on their predictions for the next army to get an update. If memory serves me right, everyone was saying Orks and Nids need an update bad, while some others said Space Marines were next up on the list.

But I can't help but wonder what will happen to the Sisters of Battle

Will they be retcon-ed out of existence like the Squats did? Because almost no explanation went into why the Squats were left out.

And why would GW do that? Is it because of poor Sisters sales and popularity? Wouldn't actual updates on the army work better to persuade players to give the Sisters a shot instead of that rinky-dink White Dwarf update article?

Discussion, GO!

Use the search, this thread has been done several times allready.

In the end it comes down to a downwards spiral between bad sales, and lack of updates, which are caused by each other.

Squats looked terrible
Sisters look terrible
Most people who beg for them to get an update are doing it because it's the "in" thing and have no desire to actually collect them.

GWS Aren't going to update some chump codex that will sell poorly.

SoBs have one thing going for them. Die hard fanboys.

I think GW will eventually get around to plastic sisters and a new codex. Honestly when they make a plastic sister box, I'll probably buy some.

I think sisters will get the dark elder treatment with a massive release but I don't think gw will want to interrupt the flow much so it's likely to be one of the last up dates to 6th IMO, or one of the first in the new year to get 2014 rolling. I don't think they will can them, they are an interesting side. We may even see them rolled into the next deamon hunter codex under the guise of codex inquisition with supplements for the different sections.

 Zande4 wrote:
Squats looked terrible
Sisters look terrible
Most people who beg for them to get an update are doing it because it's the "in" thing and have no desire to actually collect them.

GWS Aren't going to update some chump codex that will sell poorly.

Rude boy of the day award! /\

I think they're going to be squatted.
I'd be happy to be proved wrong though.

 Zande4 wrote:
Squats looked terrible
Sisters look terrible
Most people who beg for them to get an update are doing it because it's the "in" thing and have no desire to actually collect them.

GWS Aren't going to update some chump codex that will sell poorly.

Dark Eldar looked terrible.

Dark Eldar sold poorly.

I like the DE look, very sharp and dangerous looking. I get the feeling they don't sell so well is the cardboard armour

 illuknisaa wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:
Squats looked terrible
Sisters look terrible
Most people who beg for them to get an update are doing it because it's the "in" thing and have no desire to actually collect them.

GWS Aren't going to update some chump codex that will sell poorly.

Dark Eldar looked terrible.

Dark Eldar sold poorly.

Dark Eldar had nice fluff and lots of potential. Nuns with guns are just silly.

 Zande4 wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:
Squats looked terrible
Sisters look terrible
Most people who beg for them to get an update are doing it because it's the "in" thing and have no desire to actually collect them.

GWS Aren't going to update some chump codex that will sell poorly.

Dark Eldar looked terrible.

Dark Eldar sold poorly.

Dark Eldar had nice fluff and lots of potential. Nuns with guns are just silly.

I take it you aren't that familiar with the SoB...

GW has specifically stated that it won't squat anything again.
They're still getting backlash from that now.
And no, a lot of the Sisters models haven't really stood the test of time, but then lots of things haven't.

Sisters of Battle are an interesting army, more than just Nuns with Guns.
It's more a Police Force than anything overall - enforcing the law and will of the Ecclesiarchy.
I've only in the last year actually started looking into them, and some aspects are a little preachy for me (Super mega Emperor is god uber zealotry), I love the Sisters Penitent side of it.

Those that have caused some slight true or imagined that have either been sentenced to, or chosen to, join the Repentia, or are doomed to pilot a Penitent Engine, pumped full of chemicals that make them feel endless anguish and remorse until their inevitable death!

And as is fully 1/4 the army could be made using 1 plastic BSS kit.
The vehicles - all 3 transports could be 1 kit, the Exorcist a seperate kit or even combined with the transports.

The entire army as-is, could be done in 12-14 kits (5 single finecast/plastic clamshell, 3-5 plastic kits, a few vehicle kits, a flyer kit and the Penitent Engine kit).
Throw in 1-2 new flavour kits and a new 'big thing' that everything seems to be getting and it's job done.

 Zande4 wrote:
Squats looked terrible
Sisters look terrible
Most people who beg for them to get an update are doing it because it's the "in" thing and have no desire to actually collect them.

GWS Aren't going to update some chump codex that will sell poorly.

Ahahahaha!

Man that statement and your follow up is going to piss off a lot of people, including my wife.

While I like you as a person, what you have said is stupid and is going to ingnite some fires.

Me? While I think your declarations are dumb and wrong, I will be watching those more fond of the sisters tear you a new one with some popcorn.

Pretty much what Ovion said. Also, here's some relevant sources.

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/enter-citadel-sisters-of-battleblack.html?m=0

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/sisters-of-battle.html?m=0

Basically, Jervis Johnson says that all codexes are being worked on, and will be updated in time. There's also some other interesting nuggets in there that inicate that Sisters very much aren't forgotten.

Yeah, at the rate we're going at the moment, even if it's the last book done, we'll have it within 18 months.

 BattleCapIronblood wrote:
Because almost no explanation went into why the Squats were left out.

The only explanation I know of is Tyranids ate them. That's it. Not sure if this is what you ment, fluff wise, or real life wise. Real life wise, I believe I read somewhere GW said, they didn't like the direction Squats were going, becoming too much of a Joke looking army and didn't know what to do with them, so they stopped.

Never squatted, just never updated. It's the true fate awaiting sisters.

Truth is they never sold well, even new. And look at all the signs. Model range being slowly discontinued due to being metal, a codex that no one can legally obtain, and GW dancing around updating them with lame excuses.

Even when people thought DE were being squatted it never got THIS bad. I mean at least they had a codex available and some models.

I believe the success of the SoB depends upon 3 factors: model aesthetics, competitive flexibility, and fluff. The current push in 6th ed to "forge the narrative" indicates GW is trying to shift from meaningless power armies (barring ally spam) to interesting battle stories. IMO, this means the fluff will become more important in 40K 'verse. The Sisters backstory has unfortunately gone through (apparently) contradictory changes.

The original fluff (as I recall) had the SoB as the ultimate humanists, extolling the ultimate supremacy of the human race and seeking to purify it of any mutation or alien influence. The Emperor was the ultimate example of what "human" could become. Even the gene-seed alteration of the Marines was suspect.

With the release of the codices, this focus has changed to ultra-zealotry to the God-Emperor. The SoB have essentially continued what the Word Bearers were censored for and driven to chaos.

Each of these backstories can be interesting, but lead in different directions. It could even lead to internal strife and division.

I'll honestly be surprised if SOB get a proper update. I think GW will just let the slide into oblivion.
If they do get an actual update with codex and new models (which they desperately need) then no one will be happier.
They're my favorite army because for me they represent the soul of the Imperium, fanatic zealotry. My brother plays Word Bearers. I play Sisters. The two armies have a LOT in common.
I don't see how you can have WH4k without Imperial fanatics.

Personally I would be enterested to see a SOB stand alone codex, I've never collected Witch Hunters but I have delved into the SOB fluff and I think with a decent update they could become very popular for new players as in my experience most people I know who play them are the older die hard fans.

Note that the models haven't been updated previously due to modeling issues. They were attempting to make new models before. Why would they do this if they were going to squat them? Hopefully, by now they've found a solution of some sort and can update the Sisters from metal.

Also, the old metal models were a major factor as to why they didn't sell so well. Had they been updated to plastic in like with other armies, they likely would have sold far better.

 Troike wrote:
Note that the models haven't been updated previously due to modeling issues. They were attempting to make new models before. Why would they do this if they were going to squat them? Hopefully, by now they've found a solution of some sort and can update the Sisters from metal.

Also, the old metal models were a major factor as to why they didn't sell so well. Had they been updated to elastic in like with other armies, they likely would have sold far better.

This Typo makes me smile and I don't know why. Maybe it's the thought of rubbery models.

But that's what worries me. That rumor about them working on plastic sisters was years ago. I think they tried and just gave up. Why would they sit on plastic sisters for years and not mention or do anything with them? Sounds more like one sculptor did a little work to try something out, didn't work and he tossed the project.

Again, I'd LOVE to be proven wrong.

Ovion wrote:GW has specifically stated that it won't squat anything again.

I have yet to see a quote on that. It certainly wasn't included in the big statement from Jervis Jonson.
It would be cool, but from where I'm standing, this is just another urban rumour like the "everything is canon" schpiel.

I still don't think they would be dropped - not after the recent updates, which GW would have otherwise just not invested in. But at the same time, I am not so naive to believe that anything big is coming our way soon. The army will continue to suffer in want as it did throughout the past couple years, until the time GW either changes its business practices or someone in the studio picks up interest in them. Back then, Andy Hoare was the driving force behind anything SoB-related. It shows that he's gone.

CleansingFire wrote:The Sisters backstory has unfortunately gone through (apparently) contradictory changes.
The original fluff (as I recall) had the SoB as the ultimate humanists, extolling the ultimate supremacy of the human race and seeking to purify it of any mutation or alien influence. The Emperor was the ultimate example of what "human" could become. Even the gene-seed alteration of the Marines was suspect.
With the release of the codices, this focus has changed to ultra-zealotry to the God-Emperor. The SoB have essentially continued what the Word Bearers were censored for and driven to chaos.

I don't really see the contradictions - it's really just a question of focus. Their first mention was a blurb in the Rogue Trader rulebook about how they fly around in space and do purity checks on other Imperial forces. They still do this, just that later fluff (which was released in the wake of 2E and already pictured the SoB in the way we know) shifted to place their zeal (which was already mentioned in passing in the RT text) to the front and focus on their role as holy crusaders.

"The personnel and fleets of each fortress are commanded by a Prioress under the direct supervision of the Abbess on Earth. The Adepta Sororitas is a penitent organisation where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime. The slightest deviation from approved stricture results in the severest chastisement. Unquestioned loyalty to the Imperial Cult is vital, because the Sisters are expected to maintain a close eye upon all servants of the Imperium. Every single day, squads of Battle Sisters descend upon unsuspecting departments of the Adeptus Terra, administering genetic and psychological tests in order to expose wrongdoers, mutants and malcontents. Whole companies of Battle Sisters travel out to warzones, to the fortress-monasteries of the Adeptus Astartes, to the fleets and to the scattered worlds of the Imperium. No-one is free from their vigilance."
- Rogue Trader core rulebook (1987), p. 268

Sounds pretty similar to how they are today. The 3E Codex added their alliance to the Ordo Hereticus, but this, too, is not incompatible with their earlier descriptions - and in fact, the designer's notes from the Witch Hunters Codex include Andy Hoare mentioning how the studio took great care not to invalidate anything the studio has published before. In summary, I would say that the Sisters of Battle are probably one of 40k's least changed armies, compared to the fluff changes in the backgrounds of the Space Marines or the Imperial Guard.


On a sidenote, I dig the current design of the SoB. Don't anyone dare to change them.

 MWHistorian wrote:
But that's what worries me. That rumor about them working on plastic sisters was years ago. I think they tried and just gave up. Why would they sit on plastic sisters for years and not mention or do anything with them? Sounds more like one sculptor did a little work to try something out, didn't work and he tossed the project.

Again, I'd LOVE to be proven wrong.

I'd wager that if and when they have plastic Sisters, they'd save them for a codex release. A codex/model update for the Sisters would more than likely make a nice amount of money for GW.

 Troike wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
But that's what worries me. That rumor about them working on plastic sisters was years ago. I think they tried and just gave up. Why would they sit on plastic sisters for years and not mention or do anything with them? Sounds more like one sculptor did a little work to try something out, didn't work and he tossed the project.

Again, I'd LOVE to be proven wrong.

I'd wager that if and when they have plastic Sisters, they'd save them for a codex release. A codex/model update for the Sisters would more than likely make a nice amount of money for GW.

But they did get a "codex" update. And along with it...nothing. I really would not be entirely surprised to see them get another WD "codex" and nothing new just to keep the illusion that they aren't a dead army.

Mr.Church13 wrote:

 Troike wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
But that's what worries me. That rumor about them working on plastic sisters was years ago. I think they tried and just gave up. Why would they sit on plastic sisters for years and not mention or do anything with them? Sounds more like one sculptor did a little work to try something out, didn't work and he tossed the project.

Again, I'd LOVE to be proven wrong.

I'd wager that if and when they have plastic Sisters, they'd save them for a codex release. A codex/model update for the Sisters would more than likely make a nice amount of money for GW.

But they did get a "codex" update. And along with it...nothing. I really would not be entirely surprised to see them get another WD "codex" and nothing new just to keep the illusion that they aren't a dead army.

Right, because they were still having modeling issues with the Sisters back then, so they couldn't release new models. And I don't think that an army has ever gotten two consecutive WD codexes. Remember, they are meant as stop-gaps between proper codexes.

 Kain wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:
Squats looked terrible
Sisters look terrible
Most people who beg for them to get an update are doing it because it's the "in" thing and have no desire to actually collect them.

GWS Aren't going to update some chump codex that will sell poorly.

Ahahahaha!

Man that statement and your follow up is going to piss off a lot of people, including my wife.

While I like you as a person, what you have said is stupid and is going to ingnite some fires.

Me? While I think your declarations are dumb and wrong, I will be watching those more fond of the sisters tear you a new one with some popcorn.

*snort* Popcorn

Not really worth fighting over. The SOB are fanatics, and have their own fanatics. The fact remains though, the Dark Eldar used to look terrible and sell terrible, then they got some love and look amazing (best 40k models IMO**) but still sell very poorly. SOB are a niche army and will get the niche treatment.

I really like many of the SoB models. Their type of power armor is nice. Aside from the price one of the main things that has kept me from buying is the ridiculous Allies-table that makes the desperate allies with BT. Now, I could of course ally them with my SM instead, but most of my matches are with BT, so...

I honestly can't see them being retconned out of the universe or even out of the game. But it may take quite some time yet until they get updated.

I remember seeing the quote about them not Squatting anything thing again, but I can't be bothered to look for it because it doesn't mean enough to me to do so.

However, if the source is found or not, I don't believe they'd Squat any other armies anyway. It's better customer service to release new rules for them every so often, even if it is half-hearted like the recent Sisters WD codex.

I don't see them being a priority for a re-release though. With 6th Edition just dropping, they have other first-tier armies to revamp in the mean time. Codex Space Marines, Orks, Tyranids, Space Wolves to start with, just based on their past publishing schedule and army precedence. Imperial Guard are likely to be up there too.

I would say that the Sisters of Battle are probably one of 40k's least changed armies

Heh.

Well, except for going from fanatical, ultra-disciplined religious zealots whose job was galactic internal affairs, to crusading D&D Clerics with magical powers, least changed.

I'd say that aside from Tyranids, they're probably one of the most changed. Not much has changed about Space Marines, Eldar, Orks, Imperial Guard, etc, in terms of concept from Rogue Trader to now.

 Glizzy6d wrote:
Not really worth fighting over. The SOB are fanatics, and have their own fanatics. The fact remains though, the Dark Eldar used to look terrible and sell terrible, then they got some love and look amazing (best 40k models IMO**) but still sell very poorly. SOB are a niche army and will get the niche treatment.

Power levels also have an impact on sales. 6th ed wasn't kind to to DE, and it's not like it was ever GK or IG power level in 5th ed. It always was and likely always will a finicky army that either wins hard or loses horribly, and that probably discourages people from buying.

 BattleCapIronblood wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:
Squats looked terrible
Sisters look terrible
Most people who beg for them to get an update are doing it because it's the "in" thing and have no desire to actually collect them.

GWS Aren't going to update some chump codex that will sell poorly.

Ahahahaha!

Man that statement and your follow up is going to piss off a lot of people, including my wife.

While I like you as a person, what you have said is stupid and is going to ingnite some fires.

Me? While I think your declarations are dumb and wrong, I will be watching those more fond of the sisters tear you a new one with some popcorn.

*snort* Popcorn

No fight here. I treat trolls like I treat riptides. I ignore them.

They don't have magical powers, their Acts of Faith are just the updated version of their original Rites of Battle rolls. :p

fluffstalker wrote:

 Glizzy6d wrote:
Not really worth fighting over. The SOB are fanatics, and have their own fanatics. The fact remains though, the Dark Eldar used to look terrible and sell terrible, then they got some love and look amazing (best 40k models IMO**) but still sell very poorly. SOB are a niche army and will get the niche treatment.

Power levels also have an impact on sales. 6th ed wasn't kind to to DE, and it's not like it was ever GK or IG power level in 5th ed. It always was and likely always will a finicky army that either wins hard or loses horribly, and that probably discourages people from buying.

Very true. I'm still hoping DE gets an updated codex for 6th although I highly doubt it. Here's hoping for A Duke model eventually as well.

 Glizzy6d wrote:
Very true. I'm still hoping DE gets an updated codex for 6th although I highly doubt it. Here's hoping for A Duke model eventually as well.

Why wouldn't they? Wasn't it stated that they want 6th to last a long time, and have updated codices for everyone within that time? Given the rate at which the new stuff's been coming out since January, it seems like they mean it.

Furyou Miko wrote:They don't have magical powers, their Acts of Faith are just the updated version of their original Rites of Battle rolls. :p

I've given him the Codex quote ("miraculous to the unschooled") on that before - I think he just prefers to ignore what the books actually say.

Although it is worth pointing out that some non-GW sources actually do give them magical powers. It's one of the reasons for why I don't like what FFG did with them. Alas, the woes of being the fan of a setting that does not enforce a uniform canon!

Thanks for the RT recollection, Lynata. I agree that the change and factioning is not outside the core fluff, but provides something to build upon. A lot changes in 10 Millennium, and the start of the SoB came in the middle of this shift in the 40K 'verse.

CleansingFire wrote:something to build upon

That's exactly how they've explained their thoughts in the designer's notes on the 3E 'dex!

"With this Codex, we've aimed to remain faithful to the rich history of the Sisters of Battle and the Ecclesiarchy, but we've also aimed to move the story on – not by contradicting anything previously published but by expanding the background in directions not yet explored."
- WD #292

Also, you are quite welcome.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
They don't have magical powers, their Acts of Faith are just the updated version of their original Rites of Battle rolls. :p

Except totally different.

The original rules were based around the idea that they were ridiculously self disciplined and fanatical. Immunity to fear, subject to hatred, +1 to Leadership, immune to psychology. The closest it got to a special power was the save versus psyker effects, but at least it fit the concept. They were so determined and focused that psychic energy had less of an effect. "An open mind is like a fortress with it's gates un-barred and it's walls unguarded" and all that jazz, no? And the Sacred Rites had nothing to do with the God Emperor who isn't actually a God. It just had to do with them being

Then, suddenly, magical cleric powers.

Get stronger. Wound better. Get faster. Get invulnerable save.

Then 5th Ed magic powers.

Hit faster. Run faster. Get stronger. Shoot more accurately. Wound more reliably. Penetrate armor more easily.



Yeah. Totally the same thing.


Read the description. "instill in their followers an unshakeable faith in the Emprah, driving them on to higher acts of bravery or determination, and strengthening people's minds against the perils of enemy psykers".

vs

"Acts of Faith are the manifestation of the Emprah's divine purpose; small miracles"

Manifestation. b. The materialized form of a spirit.

Magical D&D cleric powers.

But what about the 2e and 5e codexes saying that they only seem miraculous? You seem to be ignoring that.

To quote the 5e codex, with emphasis on key words: "Absolute belief in the Imperial Creed allows the Sisters of Battle to perform the seemingly impossible"

The part you're quoting seems to be compatible with this. "Manifestation of the Empror's divine purpose" just refers to the Acts of Faith being a result of the Sisters believing in their religion very hard, I'd say.

 Lynata wrote:

Furyou Miko wrote:They don't have magical powers, their Acts of Faith are just the updated version of their original Rites of Battle rolls. :p

I've given him the Codex quote ("miraculous to the unschooled") on that before - I think he just prefers to ignore what the books actually say.

Well, to be entirely fair to you, you've been wrong every time.

Because the book very specifically calls them "miracles" (p.18 C:WH, White Dwarf, pg 94), and refers to the intervention of the Emprah (WD pg 94). But I know you prefer to cherry pick your preferred language and ignore anything you don't like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:
But what about the 2e and 5e codexes saying that they only seem miraculous? You seem to be ignoring that.

To quote the 5e codex, with emphasis on key words: "Absolute belief in the Imperial Creed allows the Sisters of Battle to perform the seemingly impossible"

The part you're quoting seems to be compatible with this. "Manifestation of the Empror's divine purpose" just refers to the Acts of Faith being a result of the Sisters believing in their religion very hard, I'd say.

Come on. I know you guys hate being wrong, but how can you, with a straight face, type that line of complete garbage with a straight face and not expect me to throw a flag with the second and nineteenth letters embroidered on it?

The very next line reads "Yet miracles are not to be relied upon". And the very next line after that includes "he will intervene to deliver his true servants. And then you want to pretend that because that one line could be interpreted as the powers not being magical, that it overrules the next two sentences which say, in no uncertain language, that the powers are magical?

Good Lord. It's like you think you're the only ones with access to these books.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Come on. I know you guys hate being wrong, but how can you, with a straight face, type that line of complete garbage with a straight face and not expect me to throw a flag with the second and nineteenth letters embroidered on it?

The very next line reads "Yet miracles are not to be relied upon". And the very next line after that includes "he will intervene to deliver his true servants. And then you want to pretend that because that one line could be interpreted as the powers not being magical, that it overrules the next two sentences which say, in no uncertain language, that the powers are magical?

Good Lord. It's like you think you're the only ones with access to these books.

...

That very sentence you quoted begins with "At the heart of the Imperial Creed is the belief that..."

Also, do you really need to pepper your counter-points with insults towards other posters?

#munch munch munch# "Mmmm.. popcorn" #munch munch munch#


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hate to interupt, but this pointless character directed rhetoric is what is called a "flame war" I suggest you both take a breather and come back after that or the shiney yellow triangle gets pushed

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Acts of Faith are the manifestation of the Emprah's divine purpose; small miracles

I've bolded the part that is more important.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Manifestation. b. The materialized form of a spirit.

1.a The act of manifesting.
1.b The state of being manifested.
2. An indication of the existence, reality, or presence of something: A high fever is an early manifestation of the disease.
3.a One of the forms in which someone or something, such as a person, a divine being, or an idea, is revealed.
3.b The materialized form of a spirit.
4. A public demonstration, usually of a political nature.

Heh. And you say *I* am cherrypicking.

Troike wrote:Also, do you really need to pepper your counter-points with insults towards other posters?

If he wants to sabotage his own credibility, let him. To paraphrase BSG, all of this has happened before, and it will happen again.

I contacted their support a couple months ago as a local store in my area told me that GWS concluded their sales of Sisters and that the army was no longer played (having not been in the hobby for several years). Needless to say I was disappointed and contacted GWS to see about it. I was assured they are in the works and will get an update "soon" but that GWS was uncertain when they'd have an update for them.

So a bit of a 'yep something's coming! just dunno when' response. Could be typical Customer Service but I like to think that its a true response

Eh, there's no flame war.

They get all pithy and throw insults when I simply quote printed text. Then pretend that I hurt their feelings by showing them they are wrong.

I mean, if they're going to use language like "he prefers to ignore what the books actually say" which, is an insult, it's only natural that I'm going to find it humorous when I can quote them exactly what the book says.


The fluff is what it is. I mean, I truly don't understand why there's so much resistance to it. 40K is not about subtlety. There's no hidden language.

This isn't Hills Like White Elephants where there is subtext and and symbolism, and the true nature of the story is up for interpretation.


And it isn't like there aren't dozens of contradictions and ridiculousness to every faction, so there's no need to instantly get defensive when something in the fluff for the Sisters is show to be kinda stupid. If the fluff wasn't kinda stupid most of the time, what would there be for people on this forum to complain about? This stuff isn't being written by award winners. It's frame text to provide background fluff to rules for a plastic toy soldiers game.

Ugh, please.

1. Just because you like to believe you have "shown us we are wrong" does not make it so. As you continue to see resistance to your opinion, your argument was simply not good enough to convince anyone else.
2. Don't attribute what I as an individual am saying to an entire group in an effort to put some sort of label on them.
3. Stating the truth is not an insult. I have pointed out the quote multiple times by now, yet every time you come back as if it had never happened.
4. Don't hide behind your "but I make fun of every faction" excuse now. I'm frequenting a lot of threads, yet it's only when SoB are discussed that you feel a need to show up and bash the faction for supposedly bad fluff and its players for being, how did you put it last time ... ah, yes, "weird dudes and gamer girlfriends".

Now we are close to a flamewar.

Can't you just leave us alone, please?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
And it isn't like there aren't dozens of contradictions and ridiculousness to every faction, so there's no need to instantly get defensive when something in the fluff for the Sisters is show to be kinda stupid.

But there's no contradiction. The codex material is pretty clearly saying that it's their sheer belief that lets them do their Acts of Faith, not magic.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
by showing them they are wrong.

Where did you do that? Codex fluff seems to be supporting the not-magic interpretation.

Make models that aren't almost as old as I am. And i'm down.

And you know... Since the Deldar were mentioned imagine what GW could do if they -really- got down to buisness with new sister models were made considering the transition from the 90's Deldar to the new codex.

And this argument is fething childish. The thread sort of sniffs of flamebait to begin with.

Anyway, regarding the models, I saw a nice idea yesterday. To get around the problem of the arm cloths being difficult to make posable, the models could all be snap-fit. That way we get non-metal minis without the quality risks presented by finecast (though they apparently have improved finecast, I'd still be more comfortable with plastic).

text deleted.

Reds8n

Why are you still saying that you were stating "the truth"? You had no response to my post about that phrase you quoted being preceded by saying it was just what the Imperial Creed believed.

And goddamn, man. Nobody said anything about your personal life or credibility. It's kind of weird that you gave a whole speech about it out of nowhere, really.

And Sisters players don't "like" to feel persecuted. That's very presumptuous of you to say, don't you think? Personally, I'd love to not be "persecuted", and all the fans wishing for new models and a new codex seem to suggest that they feel the same.

Edit: wow, this and the Skyrim thread sure have been good for my power level post count. I have now reached the rank of Repentia Mistress!

1. And an idea is only an idea (and will be treated as such) until actually proven.
2. A set of individuals is a group.
3. Are you disputing that this quote has been provided before? Because I can easily find earlier occasions of this debate. Look, here is one example where a number of SoB fans tried to debate the topic with you. As I said, all of this has happened before. Several times. Yet here we are again.
4. I think I'm pretty calm. You're the one throwing around insults and acting all emotional. This should give you something to think about.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You don't like me because of who I am. I'm smart, I'm well spoken, I did all kinds of things both physical and academic. I'm college educated, was a Marine, and I have an intellectually demanding career, based around creativity and the ability to derive insights from both behavior and data. So there's a certain amount of envy-derived hatred that I'm used to.

Don't forget to also mention that you are dating models, have experience in running a business (thus qualifying you, and only you, to talk about GW business decisions), and that you are a professional writer - all whilst simultaneously keeping up with your regular online appearance on a tabletop gamer board!

...

[edit] added post links to spread the fun

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
1. Resistance to ideas does not automatically invalidate the ideas. Plenty of people believed the Earth was flat and called Columbus a fool. That didn't make it flat.

You do know that the whole flat earth and columbus thing is just a myth right. We've known that the earth is round since about 400BC.

 Troike wrote:
Why are you still saying that you were stating "the truth"? You had no response to my post about that phrase you quoted being preceded by saying it was just what the Imperial Creed believed.

I ignore it because it's just adding extra posts to this already "lost cause" thread you guys have once again self-destructed with fruitless arguments against my posts.

What would the difference be what the "belief" is? That's irrelevant, since the belief is demonstrably correct. The Imperial Creed believe in the Emperor as a God. The Acts of Faith prove he is a god and gives them magical powers. See, that's the thing about textual and contextual analysis. You don't get to leave out the parts you don't like.

And goddamn, man. Nobody said anything about your personal life or credibility. It's kind of weird that you gave a whole speech about it out of nowhere, really.

It's not out of nowhere. You're just not versed enough in the greater "Lynata against the world" narrative. Don't sweat it. You're better off that way.

And Sisters players don't "like" to feel persecuted. That's very presumptuous of you to say, don't you think?

Nope. I guess it's not all Sisters players. Just the most vocal and passionate ones. It's pretty basic groupthink and herd mentality stuff, from a sociological perspective. The online SIsters community is small and tend to be self-reinforcing. The same ideas get tossed around a lot, and repeated enough that the other members assume them to be truths. I'm not faulting you for it. It's just an observation. I mean, the very fact that I can predict what you're going to say rather proves the idea that you all tend to say the same basic things. /shrug.

Personally, I'd love to not be "persecuted", and all the fans wishing for new models and a new codex seem to suggest that they feel the same.

Yes, but that's not the point. Sure, you'd love to get new models and a new codex, but it hasn't happened, and there's the common perception that it isn't happening. Thus the persecution gives you a common enemy. Games Workshop is stupid. They don't know how to run their business. If they would only make new models, they'd make a ton of money. But no, they won't give us what we want because they are stupid. Then, when people like myself point out that the reason why Sisters haven't been revamped is probably due to very simple business reasons, it becomes another common ground. He obviously hates the Sisters, and he is stupid.

You guys feed off of eachother. It's rather amusing. Ultimately, what did I say that set off this thread? I said that the Sisters of Battle had their fluff changed. Good lord, that's so ridiculously minor, it's hardly worth a bit of concern. But you two jumped on me like rabid dogs. Fortunately, I've got one of those super sweet padded sleeves the police use to train their service animals, so you were left to chew fruitlessly. Why did you jump on me? Because I threatened your perception and group identity. It isn't like this is some kind of rocket surgery. Anyone who paid attention in a freshman level sociology class can pick out the behavior. You don't want the Sisters to be D&D Clerics because that makes them less serious. I've already accepted that 40K isn't serious, so that idea isn't offensive to me. That's why Lynata's attempts to insult me in the past by calling me a Space Marine fanboy are so impotent. Because I don't take anything about the Space Marines seriously enough to get offended about.

This is the problem you have. You continually take the low road, and insult me. Then because you cannot find purchase with your insults, and I just laugh it off, you become offended. You said I was insulting you, when all I asked was how you could quote one line from a series of sentences, and ignore the rest of them. It offended you because it revealed either an intentional omission which suggests deceit, or an unintentional omission which suggests you don't understand the material. I didn't insult you. I simply pointed that out.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You're just not versed enough in the greater "Lynata against the world" narrative.

Given all those other threads where it's just you first stirring up an argument, then accusing others of having no clue etc, it actually seems to be a "Veteran Sergeant against the world" narrative. Look, you even said it yourself.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:That's why Lynata's attempts to insult me in the past by calling me a Space Marine fanboy are so impotent.

I'm fairly sure this never happened. Feel free to provide quotes to the contrary, though, and you'll get an apology. I like to believe I'm better than you, after all.

I would like to note that the existence of the Sisters of Battle is mentioned in the Apocalypse book (page 32 of the iPad edition, on the Divine Intervention table, for one spot); I doubt they're going to vanish entirely, even if it takes a while to get a new book and they still aren't competitive after it. Though a generic Living Saint would be an interesting way for GW to keep with the current trend of giving the new army some giant nasty monster that they can sell as an $80 plastic kit.

text removed.

Reds8n

Getting back on topic (because fluff arguements aren't on topic and realistically both interpretations can be correct in a setting that include Living Saints and Ephrael Stern in the canon), I don'tsee Sisters going away. With the amount of feedback that devs persistently get they know there is a dedicated fan base out here who wants them, and they've said it's hard to just kill an army. We'rewaiting ans they know it.

Phil Kelly at the Into the Citadel was quoted as having said that he had an interest in working on the book, that there were at least 3 staff members that had them as one of their armies (if not not their main army, this wasn't 100% clear) and that the big thing olding them back was the current level of their molding technology.

It seems the issue isn't sleeves (well anymore) but rather that the Sisters' design has detail that doesn't just go in the direction their plastic molds work in. Image in circle with a line bisecting it from left to right. Now any detail that is perpendicular to this line is fine as it doesn't have a way to get stuck in the mold or get damaged by the mold. Sisters, in their current design, have details that basically expand from the center of the circle in a series of directions that are not perpandicular to that bisecting line.

Add in details that create problems due to under cuts if not made seperatetly (the shoulder pads for example) and you quickly have a group of models with a lot of detail that face a potential design tweaking to be castable in plastic. Add in the issues of ensuring all the larts on the sprue are laid out correctly and that the cast peices can indeed make the model easilly and correctly and you have months and months of design work, and sprue tinkering to deal with before they even get as far as looking at how they're going to update them.

Now this isn't to say some of these problems haven't been fixed by now, but they are legitimate reasons why Sisters haven't been updated yet. Much like the Dark Eldar, an pdate is coming and the Devs want to do it right, we just need to accept that it might not be as quick as we would like.

A highly educated ultrafit marine corps member whos shagged supermodels. Forgive me if this lanky slavic lab monkey married to a mousey girl who used to leave tacks in his seat in grade school is a tad...dubious of your claims. With your Resume you should be out curing cancer, ending the great recession, beating Al Queada to death with your fists, writing the next lord of the rings, all while having a foursome with Emma Stone, Megan Fox, and Scarlett Johannson.

Of course I occasionally show up to inhouse 40k games gakfaced drunk so what do I know?

I know the only reason I don't have a SoB army already is that they don't have any plastic models...

 Zande4 wrote:

Dark Eldar had nice fluff and lots of potential. Nuns with guns are just silly.

Dark Eldar has nice fluff now.

Emphasis on the "now".

Several posts edited or deleted.

If you cannot post on this topic without belittling or insulting other forum members then it's best you do not post.

Uh, parts of my last post weren't even a part of that debate. Or all that insulting, really. But okay, I'll remake it, as inoffensive as possible.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I ignore it because it's just adding extra posts to this already "lost cause" thread you guys have once again self-destructed with fruitless arguments against my posts.

What would the difference be what the "belief" is? That's irrelevant, since the belief is demonstrably correct. The Imperial Creed believe in the Emperor as a God. The Acts of Faith prove he is a god and gives them magical powers. See, that's the thing about textual and contextual analysis. You don't get to leave out the parts you don't like.

But aren't you ignoring the parts that outright say that they are only seemingly miriaculous? The Acts of Faith aren't by any means magical, just cases of the mind pushing the body to greater feats.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Dark Eldar has nice fluff now.

Emphasis on the "now".

SoB have pretty nice fluff too. At least in my opinion.

From what I've heard, the Dark Eldar fluff update basically just fleshed things out, and that's all the Sisters need too. Hell, the material already exists in their older codexes. Just include and build on that stuff.

ClockworkZion wrote:
Much like the Dark Eldar, an pdate is coming and the Devs want to do it right, we just need to accept that it might not be as quick as we would like.

I'm perfectly fine with waiting for an update, and the devs at Citadel outright said that they weren't in the immediate future. Much better a proper model/codex update than just a rushed codex, after all.

What about the possibility of a redesign to the armor?
They did it with Necrons and DE.
Do you think they'll change the look of Sisters of battle?
I hope not, but you can never tell.

It will be interesting to see how they expand upon the units available to SoB. After losing the inquisitorial henchmen, their codex is pretty much just battle sisters.

 gossipmeng wrote:
It will be interesting to see how they expand upon the units available to SoB. After losing the inquisitorial henchmen, their codex is pretty much just battle sisters.

And weird old guys.

 gossipmeng wrote:
It will be interesting to see how they expand upon the units available to SoB. After losing the inquisitorial henchmen, their codex is pretty much just battle sisters.

Which I vastly prefer. Let Sisters have the spotlight to themselves.

 MWHistorian wrote:
What about the possibility of a redesign to the armor?
They did it with Necrons and DE.
Do you think they'll change the look of Sisters of battle?
I hope not, but you can never tell.

I kinda hope not either. I quite like the current armour.

Though they might do something with the arm cloth to make the arms posable. I wouldn't mind that too much if it got us plastics.

 MWHistorian wrote:
What about the possibility of a redesign to the armor?
They did it with Necrons and DE.
Do you think they'll change the look of Sisters of battle?
I hope not, but you can never tell.

Yes, it is possible for them to change the Sisters, but I have a feeling that they rather like the current aesthetic so they're trying everything they can to continue the baroque, gothic look for the Sisters. Of course there is no proof of this other than they haven't redesigned the Sisters yet.

 gossipmeng wrote:
It will be interesting to see how they expand upon the units available to SoB. After losing the inquisitorial henchmen, their codex is pretty much just battle sisters.

As a lot of us feel it should be. I really recommend people look at the 2nd Edition book. All Sisters and Ecclesiarchy and it really does a good job of fleshing the Ecclesiarchy and the Sisters properly. I have a feeling that they were shooting for returning to those roots when they did the WD codex and moved all the Inquisitorial stuff to the Grey Knights book to not invalidate it.

Now they could bring the Ordos Hereticus stuff back but seeing as they left that out of the fluff for the WD Codex, I don't really see it. Besides you can ally to get Inquisitors which is really more along how it should be.

If its just the sleeves holding plastic sisters back, St. Celestine doesn't have sleeves. Just get rid of em.
And who should write the codex?
Personally, I want Dan Abnett to write the fluff. I don't think he writes codex fluff, but he should start.

He doesn't, and I don't think he actually plays the game. Dan Abnett is first and foremost an author of fiction. He writes for the Black Library, but those aren't his only credits. He's also got his own version of the setting that he writes his books within, which is fine, but, even though I'm a big Dan Abnett fan, I don't always agree with his decisions on certain fluff aspects.

MWHistorian wrote:If its just the sleeves holding plastic sisters back, St. Celestine doesn't have sleeves. Just get rid of em.

Meh. Celestine also isn't a Battle Sister. The sleeves are part of the robes, and without robes the Sisters lose a good deal of their "religious" feel and be 25% closer to looking like Space Marines, and 100% closer to looking like some random Inquisitor in power armour.

Obviously it comes down to personal preferences, but I'm very sceptical towards such huge changes to their visual appearance. If they can't get their precious multipose minis with sleeves, I'd rather they would simply drop that idea and have the arms (and thus sleeves) affixed firmly and thus molded to fit to the torso. Together with the head and legs being extra, that's still more flexibility than the old monopose metal minis.

Psienesis wrote:but, even though I'm a big Dan Abnett fan, I don't always agree with his decisions on certain fluff aspects.

^ That would be my main concern as well. I'm not sure how much he had to do with certain .. controversial aspects of Dark Heresy's fluff, but let's just say I'd prefer one of the oldschool studio writers. That way at least there is a good chance that the established tone would be replicated.

If possible, they should get Andy Hoare back on board for this.

Hey, one can dream.

 MWHistorian wrote:
And who should write the codex?

A good question!

I see three decent choices: Ward (don't shoot, I promise I have reasons!) Vetock and Kelly.

Ward doing it would certainly just about gurantee us a competetive army with badass fluff. He did write the fluff in the WD codex, which was actually pretty good. Though there is the risk he'll go oveboard and give the Sisters OP rules and over the top fluff. Overall I'd be willing to give him a chance.

Vetock was seen as a favourable choice by others, and I can see why. He's got a pretty solid history. Seems like he'd give us a solid codex. Though we've seen no evidence that he's particularly interested or cares about the Sisters though, so I wouldn't quite want him on that basis.

Lastly, Kelly also seems a good choice. He said that Sisters are a book that he was interested in doing at some point, so the enthusiasm for the army is there. His last two codexes, Daemons and Eldar, seemed to be more or less well recieved. Don't know of any reasons why he wouldn't make a good SoB codex.

But anyway, the current evidence of Kelly expressing interest would suggest that he'll be the one to do it. But I suppose it's too much to early to say. All I know is that I hope to Big E that it's not The Cruddance.

The really funny thing about the faith vs magic argument is that we all know if they do get a 6th ed update the Acts of Faith will turn into a psychic power. Can you say "Sisterhood of Psykers" anyone?

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
The really funny thing about the faith vs magic argument is that we all know if they do get a 6th ed update the Acts of Faith will turn into a psychic power. Can you say "Sisterhood of Psykers" anyone?

Yeah, unlikely. They haven't been psychic for 5 editions. I doubt they will this one.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
The really funny thing about the faith vs magic argument is that we all know if they do get a 6th ed update the Acts of Faith will turn into a psychic power. Can you say "Sisterhood of Psykers" anyone?

Nahhh. Sisters aren't the biggest fans of psykers, so it'd be dumb to make them an implicitly all-psyker army.

A defining feature of the Acts of Faith is that they are not a psychic phenomena created by psykers. Anti-psyker measures have never been effective against the Sisters. Were it a psychic/magic thing, then anti-warp measures would shut them down.

Yeah, I doubt the psyker angle.
But I do like Kelly for the writer. Not being outright antagonistic toward the Sisters is a good start and I like the Eldar Dex.

There are no psychic Sisters... and for a Sister to suddenly express psychic ability while in the Order? Well... that is a very, very bad way to die.

Troike wrote:Ward doing it would certainly just about gurantee us a competetive army with badass fluff. He did write the fluff in the WD codex, which was actually pretty good.

I'm still miffed about him having changed Praxedes from being MIA to confirmed dead. The old story was so much cooler as it had the potential for a great in-universe legend about a badass Canoness and her bodyguards still hacking and slaughtering their way through an entire Tyranid Hive Fleet, as ridiculous as it would sound to us as (fairly) objective spectators. All I can say is, why the change? What was the author's intention there?

Although I have heard that Ward only wrote the rules, and the Cruddace wrote the fluff? I'm not entirely sure who actually wrote what in that article.
Kelly could work nicely, though. I liked his IG stuff.

 Lynata wrote:

Troike wrote:Ward doing it would certainly just about gurantee us a competetive army with badass fluff. He did write the fluff in the WD codex, which was actually pretty good.

I'm still miffed about him having changed Praxedes from being MIA to confirmed dead. The old story was so much cooler as it had the potential for a great in-universe legend about a badass Canoness and her bodyguards still hacking and slaughtering their way through an entire Tyranid Hive Fleet, as ridiculous as it would sound to us as (fairly) objective spectators. All I can say is, why the change? What was the author's intention there?

Although I have heard that Ward only wrote the rules, and the Cruddace wrote the fluff? I'm not entirely sure who actually wrote what in that article.
Kelly could work nicely, though. I liked his IG stuff.

From what I've heard Ward wrote the fluff and Cruddace wrote the rules. The Faith Mechanic definitely feels like something Cruddace would do at least.

The confirmed dead does suck, but it's one of those things that would happen even in universe, eventually. I like to assume that they found her still standing body atop a mountain of Tyranid corpses, ready to strike the next one that came within reach.

Oh, so it was the other way around? Okay, I may just have mixed that up.

ClockworkZion wrote:The confirmed dead does suck, but it's one of those things that would happen even in universe, eventually. I like to assume that they found her still standing body atop a mountain of Tyranid corpses, ready to strike the next one that came within reach.

Yeah, but the story mentions how they dragged her corpse away into the last evac shuttles.
In the old version, she stayed behind, and the last thing anyone ever saw of her was her brandishing her power maul and bracing to meet the charging 'nids. Hence the legend. Since the entire planet was overrun, any retrieval would have been impossible, anyways.

I just ... fail to see the point in this change. It makes her death so much less special by eliminating this cool "well MAYBE she is still alive" angle from in-universe opinion about her. Now all she did was to bash some Hive Tyrant's head in before collapsing on the ground. Whoop-de-doo. I'm not even sure this alone should actually qualify for being anointed as a Saint.

[edit] Sorry for the tone, I was (or still am) just really disappointed when reading that bit in the new 'dex.

I agree that the previous Praxedes story was much, much better overall. But still, the other fluff was fun. The Sisters headshot a Farseer, successfully raid a Daemon world, annihilate a Red Corsair attack and fight back to back with Salamanders. Fun stuff.

But yeah, Kelly is likely the safer choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:
Now all she did was to bash some Hive Tyrant's head in before collapsing on the ground. Whoop-de-doo. I'm not even sure this alone should actually qualify for being anointed as a Saint.

She did do it while she was dying, and was single-handedly responsible for turning the tide of the battle.

Not to sound like I'm defending it. While there is some badassery there, it is still less cool that the "becomes a myth" version.

Lol.

There is a number of us who are winning in no uncertain terms using Sisters of Battle. their "little codex" won four tournies in a row for me and took 3rd at NOVA.

So I suspect those speaking about Sisters (most of the time) haven't payed against them often. they are quite good.

the popularity issue may be another matter. I think the idea of guys playing a girl army is causing the silly ill will towards it frankly. It aint the results on the field because those have been good for me, for YEARS, before and after the new codex.

there is a very large thread for Sisters of Battle on Dakka BTW.

The detail and slimness of the Necron, Eldar (both flavors) and Chaos models seems to indicate there is hope of overcoming the technical difficulties of producing plastic SoB models. Plus the flowing robes of the DA.

The other difficult task is developing credible expansion units to provide list-building options.

CleansingFire wrote:
The detail and slimness of the Necron, Eldar (both flavors) and Chaos models seems to indicate there is hope of overcoming the technical difficulties of producing plastic SoB models. Plus the flowing robes of the DA.

The other difficult task is developing credible expansion units to provide list-building options.

DA robes aren't new, and don't have sleeves. Frankly there are a LOT of small details that can cause problems for Sisters in the molding process. Sleeves aren't the only issue after all.

Sounds like I'm in the minority here, but I love the SOB models. I started playing back in 3rd edition, then took a break for a while. Loved the models then. Having recently gotten back into the game, while developing my main army (about 5k points of DA) I have been slowly buying up SOB models off of Ebay whenever deals are to be had.

Would love to see new plastics and a codex + new releases. Hope one day it happens. Certainly an expensive army to collect currently, even doing it entirely by sniping good deals off of ebay it's added up quite fast.

 Jancoran wrote:
Lol.

There is a number of us who are winning in no uncertain terms using Sisters of Battle. their "little codex" won four tournies in a row for me and took 3rd at NOVA.

So I suspect those speaking about Sisters (most of the time) haven't payed against them often. they are quite good.

the popularity issue may be another matter. I think the idea of guys playing a girl army is causing the silly ill will towards it frankly. It aint the results on the field because those have been good for me, for YEARS, before and after the new codex.

there is a very large thread for Sisters of Battle on Dakka BTW.

Your blatant condescension is noted and not appreciated.

While I firmly believe that sisters will never see a true update (please prove me wrong GW). I would like for them to lose the sleeves and robes all together.

Make them stop looking like short, squat, Dark Angels. A complete overhaul similar to Dark Eldar might actually save the army. Keep the iconography, but readjust the armor, get some new helmets, and adjust their scale (although I think Marines could use a scale adjustment too, to be fair).

But more importantly than any of that. GW needs to hire some sculptors THAT CAN MAKE GOOD FEMALE FACES! Seriously the current sisters look like cross-dressers.

I would love for Sisters of Battle to be updated so I could run them allied with Salamanders. All those flamers and meltas galore.

Mr.Church13 wrote:
While I firmly believe that sisters will never see a true update (please prove me wrong GW). I would like for them to lose the sleeves and robes all together.

Make them stop looking like short, squat, Dark Angels. A complete overhaul similar to Dark Eldar might actually save the army. Keep the iconography, but readjust the armor, get some new helmets, and adjust their scale (although I think Marines could use a scale adjustment too, to be fair).

But more importantly than any of that. GW needs to hire some sculptors THAT CAN MAKE GOOD FEMALE FACES! Seriously the current sisters look like cross-dressers.

You could have them all wear face concealing helmets, yes even the special characters.

 Kain wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:
While I firmly believe that sisters will never see a true update (please prove me wrong GW). I would like for them to lose the sleeves and robes all together.

Make them stop looking like short, squat, Dark Angels. A complete overhaul similar to Dark Eldar might actually save the army. Keep the iconography, but readjust the armor, get some new helmets, and adjust their scale (although I think Marines could use a scale adjustment too, to be fair).

But more importantly than any of that. GW needs to hire some sculptors THAT CAN MAKE GOOD FEMALE FACES! Seriously the current sisters look like cross-dressers.

You could have them all wear face concealing helmets, yes even the special characters.

But I like painting faces?

Locrian wrote:Sounds like I'm in the minority here, but I love the SOB models.

You are not alone.

Mr.Church13 wrote:Make them stop looking like short, squat, Dark Angels. A complete overhaul similar to Dark Eldar might actually save the army. Keep the iconography, but readjust the armor, get some new helmets, and adjust their scale (although I think Marines could use a scale adjustment too, to be fair).

My aforementioned huge scepticism to any visual changes aside, how would you have them look, exactly? If you say that it's the robes that make them look like Dark Angels, getting rid of them should obviously make them look like Vanilla Marines. And what sort of armour adjustments? Making them more blocky? Kasrkin already went there.

Their current look clearly separates them from any of the other models; I think any sort of drastic change would just make them more similar to something that is already there.
Besides, they are supposed to be a weird crossover between military efficiency and impractical religious motif. Changing the visuals comes with a grave threat to sacrificing this aspect of their theme, I think.

Mr.Church13 wrote:But more importantly than any of that. GW needs to hire some sculptors THAT CAN MAKE GOOD FEMALE FACES!

Oh Emperor, yes. And it's not only the Sisters...

I think if they just had a new Inquisitors codex with the Sisters in it, that would be the ticket. I myself have no desire for a full sister army, but would actually like to have a squad or three with perhaps a vehicle or two as part of an Inquisatorial force.

Relapse wrote:
I think if they just had a new Inquisitors codex with the Sisters in it, that would be the ticket. I myself have no desire for a full sister army, but would actually like to have a squad or three with perhaps a vehicle or two as part of an Inquisatorial force.

Allies are your friend.

Seriously the Inquisition was forced into the 3rd Edition book and sidelined Sisters in what should have been their codex. Good Riddance!

Relapse wrote:
I think if they just had a new Inquisitors codex with the Sisters in it, that would be the ticket. I myself have no desire for a full sister army, but would actually like to have a squad or three with perhaps a vehicle or two as part of an Inquisatorial force.

Why purposefully limit yourself? Okay, you won't play a whole army, but many of us would like to. Anything less and I'll probably quite warhammer.

 Lynata wrote:

Locrian wrote:Sounds like I'm in the minority here, but I love the SOB models.

You are not alone.

Mr.Church13 wrote:Make them stop looking like short, squat, Dark Angels. A complete overhaul similar to Dark Eldar might actually save the army. Keep the iconography, but readjust the armor, get some new helmets, and adjust their scale (although I think Marines could use a scale adjustment too, to be fair).

My aforementioned huge scepticism to any visual changes aside, how would you have them look, exactly? If you say that it's the robes that make them look like Dark Angels, getting rid of them should obviously make them look like Vanilla Marines. And what sort of armour adjustments? Making them more blocky? Kasrkin already went there.

Their current look clearly separates them from any of the other models; I think any sort of drastic change would just make them more similar to something that is already there.
Besides, they are supposed to be a weird crossover between military efficiency and impractical religious motif. Changing the visuals comes with a grave threat to sacrificing this aspect of their theme, I think.

Mr.Church13 wrote:But more importantly than any of that. GW needs to hire some sculptors THAT CAN MAKE GOOD FEMALE FACES!

Oh Emperor, yes. And it's not only the Sisters...

While I'm not nor do I claim to be a professional artist of any form I think that if you want to keep the robes you could tie them or tuck them up under a redesigned gauntlet or arm carapace, bring the scale up a bit so they're not so dang stumpy and lessen the robes to a more not all up in the way more tabard hanging off the front and back, and definitely slim up the armor and bring it tight against the body to keep that corset look it has like each piece was custom fit to each sister. Also a sleeker, slimmer, and overall more feminine profile is why I think the helmet needs a redesign.

Not perfect, but I do think the look could use a serious updating.

I want Sisters to look like this:

And not this:

Ok, that first piece of art is almost exactly what I want.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Relapse wrote:
I think if they just had a new Inquisitors codex with the Sisters in it, that would be the ticket. I myself have no desire for a full sister army, but would actually like to have a squad or three with perhaps a vehicle or two as part of an Inquisatorial force.

Why purposefully limit yourself? Okay, you won't play a whole army, but many of us would like to. Anything less and I'll probably quite warhammer.

I'm all for people having the option of a full out army of sisters if they want, and if they come out with a new codexfor them, I'd be happy. I have the Inquisition codex with the Sisters and really don't think it would take a lot to bring them up to a 6th edition level of competitiveness.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I want Sisters to look like this:

And not this:

There are people that want girl friends to look like that.

The fluff changes that annoyed ME the most were the fact they changed the fates of two of the Companions of Saint Dominica.

Silvana just vanished, instead of being replaced with a silver skeleton... and Arabella was apparently killed, instead of going on a quest into the Eye.

It's like Ward couldn't stand the thought of leaving plot-hooky loose ends in the Sisters fluff. :(

Edit: Anyway, I don't see the two pictures as being incompatible. The models were based on the original John Blanche picture, while the Kopinski picture on the top was based on the models!

I'm in favour of the top image too, actually - it maintains the aesthetic whilst being easier to sculpt and therefore produce. Blanche's art is pretty, but it's damn impractical for model-making.

 Kain wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Lol.

There is a number of us who are winning in no uncertain terms using Sisters of Battle. their "little codex" won four tournies in a row for me and took 3rd at NOVA.

So I suspect those speaking about Sisters (most of the time) haven't payed against them often. they are quite good.

the popularity issue may be another matter. I think the idea of guys playing a girl army is causing the silly ill will towards it frankly. It aint the results on the field because those have been good for me, for YEARS, before and after the new codex.

there is a very large thread for Sisters of Battle on Dakka BTW.

Your blatant condescension is noted and not appreciated.

Lighten up.

Mr.Church13 wrote:

Also a sleeker, slimmer, and overall more feminine profile is why I think the helmet needs a redesign.

Hmmm, nah. Current one is a futuristic sallet, which fits their medieval theme.

Also, I'm quite opposed to changing their armour to make it look more "feminine". Their whole point is that they are professional, zealot soldiers. They're this way before women.

Mr.Church13 wrote:Ok, that first piece of art is almost exactly what I want.

But that's how they look like now?

Troike wrote:Also, I'm quite opposed to changing their armour to make it look more "feminine". Their whole point is that they are professional, zealot soldiers. They're this way before women.

Yeah, we're getting enough weird comments about the "boob plate" and the corset already. I do not have any issues with those two details at all, but I guess I'm feeling like "any more and it becomes too sexualised" and "any less and it becomes too generic".

Plus, I have an allergy against SoB images (or the possibility of minis) with heels. Seriously, that ancient piece by Blanche is the only official artwork ever that features it, but it feels like 50% of the fan-art focuses on that. I always fear that some day, GW might actually adopt this, just because it's apparently so very popular. Only serves to further increase my scepticism to model updates.

For the most part, I don't understand the 'SoB have awful models' line. I -totally- understand that the Dialogus model is hideous, and the Repentia are kinda iffy, but the standard Battle Sister/Seraphim models? Those are rock solid, imo.

Also, as a personal note, there's nothing that brings me more giddy pleasure than challenging someone who trashes Sisters in my FLGS...and crushing them.

 curran12 wrote:
For the most part, I don't understand the 'SoB have awful models' line. I -totally- understand that the Dialogus model is hideous, and the Repentia are kinda iffy, but the standard Battle Sister/Seraphim models? Those are rock solid, imo.

Also, as a personal note, there's nothing that brings me more giddy pleasure than challenging someone who trashes Sisters in my FLGS...and crushing them.

I'm pretre and I endorse this post.

Hey, I kinda like the dialogus model. She's a bit too tall though. As tall as a space marine.
I don't want them to get sexier. I want them to get more hard core zealous military soldiery.
I wrote a whole history book about tough-as-nails women. I'm a little partial.

rowan341 wrote:
I like the DE look, very sharp and dangerous looking. I get the feeling they don't sell so well is the cardboard armour

Their earlier mini line was not as interesting as it is now, though. So they did look kind of bad and sold poorly, especially when they ended up in the outdated codex queue. Their new codex is much more interesting and the minis look a lot better too.

Skriker

 MWHistorian wrote:
Hey, I kinda like the dialogus model. She's a bit too tall though. As tall as a space marine.
I don't want them to get sexier. I want them to get more hard core zealous military soldiery.
I wrote a whole history book about tough-as-nails women. I'm a little partial.

I like everything but the mouth. That mouth, man...

And I agree, I don't want 'sexy' Sisters either. That's why I like their basic models so much, they are feminine but not overly sexualized.

Relapse wrote:
I think if they just had a new Inquisitors codex with the Sisters in it, that would be the ticket. I myself have no desire for a full sister army, but would actually like to have a squad or three with perhaps a vehicle or two as part of an Inquisatorial force.

Been there...done that...had a full witchhunters army with Sisters of Battle. Inquisitor themed codex line ultimately proves unpopular and dies off. I think they were two of the best codecies ever, allowing so many options for unique and fun forces. Sadly not enough people found that to be a useful thing. So now we have Codex Grey Knights and the silly white dwarf codex for Sisters of Battle.

Skriker

The support sisters int he command squad have been a bit of a puzzle. The Dialogus is not armored but is still treated as having power armor. The Hospitaler is a fine example of maintaining a slim armored appearance, while the regular BS display the "extra bulk" of power armor.

 curran12 wrote:
For the most part, I don't understand the 'SoB have awful models' line. I -totally- understand that the Dialogus model is hideous, and the Repentia are kinda iffy, but the standard Battle Sister/Seraphim models? Those are rock solid, imo.

I don't have a problem with their armor or their general feel. I just have a problem with the fact that for most of the units the models are almost identical. Minor changes in the hair style and small armor details don't hide the fact that most of the models are helmetless, all facing the same direction and all holding their weapons at the same exact height and angle. Bored the heck out of me when painting them and also made the army feel so dull on the table for me I sold it off. Seraphim, the heavies the character models all work for me. This was the same complaint I had back during the start of the transition over to plasic where plastic kits were pretty much a single model supplied in abundance in one box. BORING! The plastic kits just allow for my customization and personalization of the models in each unit. Converting models holding their weapons across their torsos like most of the SoB models just isn't all that easy., especially if you don't want the finished model to be covering that area anymore and you have to custom sculpt in the front of the armor.

Skriker

It's not that the sculpts are universally terrible, but, like others have posted, if you have a lot of them, they get boring to paint, because there's almost no variety to them. You can get a bit creative in hair and eye colors, but the armor is going to be the same, and if you're painting 75 models, that's going to get visually dull.

IG and Orks, at least, you can just spray-paint the whole army OD Green at one go and call it a day.

 Lynata wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:Ok, that first piece of art is almost exactly what I want.

But that's how they look like now?

Troike wrote:Also, I'm quite opposed to changing their armour to make it look more "feminine". Their whole point is that they are professional, zealot soldiers. They're this way before women.

Yeah, we're getting enough weird comments about the "boob plate" and the corset already. I do not have any issues with those two details at all, but I guess I'm feeling like "any more and it becomes too sexualised" and "any less and it becomes too generic".

Plus, I have an allergy against SoB images (or the possibility of minis) with heels. Seriously, that ancient piece by Blanche is the only official artwork ever that features it, but it feels like 50% of the fan-art focuses on that. I always fear that some day, GW might actually adopt this, just because it's apparently so very popular. Only serves to further increase my scepticism to model updates.

Not really. Their current model is weirdly stumpy with disproportionate small legs that make them all look male when the gun is drawn up. Trust me no one can tell they're female from a distance. And the hanging arm robes(source of the inability to make new models) is on each and every clone sister and in that art still needs to go or be tucked. Right now they just look like dwarf marines. Hence why they need more feminine (not in a sexual way) looks. Also they need to shrink those 80s style shoulder pads on the current model. I do fully agree with the no heels thing though.

Giant pauldrons is a theme of 40K. Always has been.

Just look at these dudes:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1252459_99120101025_SMTacticalsquadmain_873x627.jpg


... they have pauldron for *days*.

 Lynata wrote:
Plus, I have an allergy against SoB images (or the possibility of minis) with heels.

Could not agree more. It is fairly common in the fanart, but that I can tolerate. As long as it stays out of the official stuff. But I've spoken to people before who said they wouldn't mind heels on the models, and couldn't see any problem with a soldier in a warzone wearing high heels.

But I'm hopeful that GW will avoid this. The models were proper looking back in the days of Blanache art and the other "weird" 2e art. And the most recent codex keeps up the strong portrayal as tough, serious soldiers. Personally, I'm confident that new models would be as respectful to the army as the first.

 curran12 wrote:
For the most part, I don't understand the 'SoB have awful models' line. I -totally- understand that the Dialogus model is hideous, and the Repentia are kinda iffy, but the standard Battle Sister/Seraphim models? Those are rock solid, imo.

Seconding. They look like what they are, elite soldiers of the church.

Mr.Church13 wrote:
Not really. Their current model is weirdly stumpy with disproportionate small legs that make them all look male when the gun is drawn up. Trust me no one can tell they're female from a distance. And the hanging arm robes(source of the inability to make new models) is on each and every clone sister and in that art still needs to go or be tucked. Right now they just look like dwarf marines. Hence why they need more feminine (not in a sexual way) looks. Also they need to shrink those 80s style shoulder pads on the current model. I do fully agree with the no heels thing though.

I'm just concerned about the feminine thing going too far, and outshining the soldier/religion elements. Though I suppose that adjustments to their proportions and poses wouldn't be too harmful. As long as they don't get skintight armour or anything.

I might be a little late to the party, but didn't the BT use to have a Codex? If all rumors are true, most not really rumors anymore, then the whole we won't kill a codex bit is off.

If they could wrap the BT back into the SM codex, couldn't they just as easy roll the SoB into say the GK codex?

There's quite a difference between killing a codex off and being folded into a codex.

Catachans? Folded into a codex.
Daemon Hunters, Witch Hunters? Folded into a codex.

Squats? Killed off.

If they could wrap the BT back into the SM codex, couldn't they just as easy roll the SoB into say the GK codex?

They could, but it seems unlikely. More likely that they ignore them than reprint GK so soon after it was released.

Ummmm. A well done unified inquisition codex. Soo much win is possible.

 Roci wrote:
I might be a little late to the party, but didn't the BT use to have a Codex? If all rumors are true, most not really rumors anymore, then the whole we won't kill a codex bit is off.

If they could wrap the BT back into the SM codex, couldn't they just as easy roll the SoB into say the GK codex?

Well Black Templars are still Space Marines. So that works. Yes you could effectively make a combined Grey Knights/Sisters/Inquisitors codex the next time around as well. I think the point is less killing off "a codex" than it is killing off "an army". I do believe the latter is what people really mean. The last real codex with SoBs in them was the Witchhunters Codex and not a straight Sisters of Battle codex either.

Skriker

Mr.Church13 wrote:
Ummmm. A well done unified inquisition codex. Soo much win is possible.

I'm very apprehensive of this. Would be very bloated, for one. You're combining two fully-fledged armies, units will likely become overshadowed by other choices or maybe even dropped entirely. Then there's the fluff, which will again be very bloated, several factions fighting for the spotlight and only getting portions of it each.

And hey, I'll admit to a personal bias here, I'd much rather a standalone Sisters/Ecclesiarchy book. Let them keep the spotlight to themselves.

 Skriker wrote:
The last real codex with SoBs in them was the Witchhunters Codex and not a straight Sisters of Battle codex either.

The WD codex is a real codex! While smaller it still has the validity of another fully-fledged codex.

An Inquisition Codex with every faction receiving two whole pages of fluff? Whee.

May as well fold the Imperial Guard into the SM 'dex. That would be the equivalent of what we're talking about here.

Troike wrote:The models were proper looking back in the days of Blanache art and the other "weird" 2e art.

What other 2E art was weird? I take it you've seen the "collection" I posted? I can't see anything other than that one Blanche pic that I'd regard as "off".

 curran12 wrote:
For the most part, I don't understand the 'SoB have awful models' line. I -totally- understand that the Dialogus model is hideous, and the Repentia are kinda iffy, but the standard Battle Sister/Seraphim models? Those are rock solid, imo.

Yup, I really like the Battle Sisters and Seraphim. And the Canoness Don't know how much longer I can resist getting that SoB allied detachment. I'd probably get it right now but I want a 4x Heavy Bolter Retributor squad (what can I say, I'm a HB addict), but daaaamn that's expensive.

 Lynata wrote:
What other 2E art was weird? I take it you've seen the "collection" I posted? I can't see anything other than that one Blanche pic that I'd regard as "off".

I was thinking of a picture of a Sister with spiked boobplates shooting a Marine, but I've just realised that was from RT. Apologies.

Still strengthens my point though. The Sisters came out alongside art like that but still looked fine.

Love the art from 2e btw. Hope to see more like it in the future.

That 3rd edition art though. Wow. That's good stuff.

 Troike wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:
Ummmm. A well done unified inquisition codex. Soo much win is possible.

I'm very apprehensive of this. Would be very bloated, for one. You're combining two fully-fledged armies, units will likely become overshadowed by other choices or maybe even dropped entirely. Then there's the fluff, which will again be very bloated, several factions fighting for the spotlight and only getting portions of it each.

And hey, I'll admit to a personal bias here, I'd much rather a standalone Sisters/Ecclesiarchy book. Let them keep the spotlight to themselves.

 Skriker wrote:
The last real codex with SoBs in them was the Witchhunters Codex and not a straight Sisters of Battle codex either.

The WD codex is a real codex! While smaller it still has the validity of another fully-fledged codex.

Well, both armies already share the inquisition units. Using the 5th Ed marine codex as an example they are willing to make a thicker codex for armies. And with supplements you don't really have to worry much about units disappearing totally or the fluff being lost.

Mr.Church13 wrote:
]Well, both armies already share the inquisition units. Using the 5th Ed marine codex as an example they are willing to make a thicker codex for armies. And with supplements you don't really have to worry much about units disappearing totally or the fluff being lost.

Currently they only share Crusaders, Arco-Flagellant and Death Cult Assassins. No other Inquisition/GK units in the SoB codex. And while an SoB supplement might be okay, supplements seem to just be there to change how you play the army around a bit, not to bring in or preserve units. And they provide less fluff than a standalone codex. I'd prefer a stand-alone army still.

And looking at the latest information, Jervis saying all armies are intended to recieve updates and Phil Kelly expressing interest in working on the SoB, it seems fairly likely that this is what we'll eventually get.

 MWHistorian wrote:
That 3rd edition art though. Wow. That's good stuff.

Aye. Hope a new codex will provide equally great, if not better art.

Mr.Church13 wrote:

Well, both armies already share the inquisition units. Using the 5th Ed marine codex as an example they are willing to make a thicker codex for armies. And with supplements you don't really have to worry much about units disappearing totally or the fluff being lost.

Only one of those was an Inquisition unit really until 5th edition changed it all up. Crusaders were fraternities of elite bodyguards for people amongst the Inquisition. Now they are a creation of the Cardinals Crimson and a violation of the Decree Passive. Arco-flagellants were a creation of the Ecclesiarchy and the Death Cultists were from fringe cults of the Emperor. Its a little disconcerting really, from a fluff perspective really, but such is the nature of the game we play.

 Troike wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
And who should write the codex?

A good question!

I see three decent choices: Ward (don't shoot, I promise I have reasons!) Vetock and Kelly.

Ward doing it would certainly just about gurantee us a competetive army with badass fluff. He did write the fluff in the WD codex, which was actually pretty good. Though there is the risk he'll go oveboard and give the Sisters OP rules and over the top fluff. Overall I'd be willing to give him a chance.

Vetock was seen as a favourable choice by others, and I can see why. He's got a pretty solid history. Seems like he'd give us a solid codex. Though we've seen no evidence that he's particularly interested or cares about the Sisters though, so I wouldn't quite want him on that basis.

Lastly, Kelly also seems a good choice. He said that Sisters are a book that he was interested in doing at some point, so the enthusiasm for the army is there. His last two codexes, Daemons and Eldar, seemed to be more or less well recieved. Don't know of any reasons why he wouldn't make a good SoB codex.

But anyway, the current evidence of Kelly expressing interest would suggest that he'll be the one to do it. But I suppose it's too much to early to say. All I know is that I hope to Big E that it's not The Cruddance.

Ward?Doesn't he kill,mutilate,taint them with chaos every chance he gets?

Da krimson barun wrote:
Ward?Doesn't he kill,mutilate,taint them with chaos every chance he gets?

Just the Bloodtide. While quite heinous, it's the only time that he has, IIRC. The WD 'dex shows that he can also write them decently, bar the Praxedes thing, perhaps.

You've been on 1d4chan, I take it?

 Troike wrote:

Da krimson barun wrote:
Ward?Doesn't he kill,mutilate,taint them with chaos every chance he gets?

Just the Bloodtide. While quite heinous, it's the only time that he has, IIRC. The WD 'dex shows that he can also write them decently, bar the Praxedes thing, perhaps.

You've been on 1d4chan, I take it?

Maybe....

MWHistorian wrote:That 3rd edition art though. Wow. That's good stuff.

Yesss.

Troike wrote:Just the Bloodtide. While quite heinous, it's the only time that he has, IIRC.

I still don't mind the Bloodtide. It actually suggests the Sisters to be less corruptible than the GKs, which is quite a feat.
That they get killed for it ... meh, it's the Imperium/Inquisition/40k. Grimdark yadah yadah etc. It fits to the GK's modus operandi, and the Sisters would have done the same were it the other way around. Who knows how many of the Marine Chapters they have purged have been condemned merely because they're too rational or honourable for the IoM's purpose.

Also, hah @ 1d4chan

Well I really like the models, personally ,but im not a modeller type.

 Troike wrote:

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
The really funny thing about the faith vs magic argument is that we all know if they do get a 6th ed update the Acts of Faith will turn into a psychic power. Can you say "Sisterhood of Psykers" anyone?

Nahhh. Sisters aren't the biggest fans of psykers, so it'd be dumb to make them an implicitly all-psyker army.

A defining feature of the Acts of Faith is that they are not a psychic phenomena created by psykers. Anti-psyker measures have never been effective against the Sisters. Were it a psychic/magic thing, then anti-warp measures would shut them down.

I stand corrected. They're not Psykers, they just pray (concentrate) real hard and things happen. BTW, hard to say the Sisters aren't fans of psykers whey they 'pray' to the greatest psyker of all! Maybe they aren't psykers but their Acts of Faith could be interpreted as psychic intervention by the Emperor. Much as a Librarian uses his powers to protect the Marines around him, the sisters prayers are heard by the Emperor and he uses his psychic powers to help them.

Just a minor retelling of the fluff, but hey, GW would never do that, right?

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
BTW, hard to say the Sisters aren't fans of psykers whey they 'pray' to the greatest psyker of all!

Well, nobody said that the Imperial Creed was consistent.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
Maybe they aren't psykers but their Acts of Faith could be interpreted as psychic intervention by the Emperor. Much as a Librarian uses his powers to protect the Marines around him, the sisters prayers are heard by the Emperor and he uses his psychic powers to help them.

I used to have this view too, but then I saw the codex material (2e and 5e) saying that they were "seemingly miraculous", which would imply that they are not magical in nature. But hey, Celestine can very much be interpreted in this way.

On the subject of Acts of Faith and a possible psychic nature, there was this GW article for the Inquisitor RPG, which (for once) makes it abundantly clear how the studio thinks about it.

That being said, with 40k fluff being what it is, other sources went different ways - DoW Soulstorm and FFG's RPGs, for example, very obviously render them a sort of divine magic of a kind not shown to exist with any other faction even in those sources' other material.

Given how many fans have theorised them to be psychic powers in the past, I could easily see someone writing a novel or so get the same idea, and perhaps picture them to work with the same sort of denial as the Space Wolves' Rune Priests apply.
I don't really believe this to happen within GW Codex material, however, unless it were part of a major retcon. Given how the Sisterhood's depiction changed little to none over 5 Editions so far, I don't see why they should suddenly pull such an unprecedented move.

Troike wrote:But hey, Celestine can very much be interpreted in this way.

Celestine has caused me to think a lot about the question, too. I finally settled to regard her as a Warp Spirit akin to a mini-Slaanesh - just conjured from religiously motivated feelings rather than excess, and possessing the body of one of the faithful to "anchor" itself in reality.
I also considered the possibility that what we are given to read is nothing but propaganda, though, or at the very least a heavily exaggerated account. Hyperbole seems to be a tradition of 40k fluff, too, according to Marc Gascogne - who used this to explain the many contradictions between the various sources of background.

Look on the bright side guys.. The moment a competitor starts making good "nuns with guns" models GW will be motivated to do the whole.. "Quick get out the SoB models we've had designed for 5 years and write C&D letters... After all we invented the nuns with guns idea"

That army is already being planned, it's from Raging Heroes, and is going to follow the TGG model line. IIRC, the name of this army-line will be "Iron Empire" or something to that effect.

Eh, if the TGG line is any indication, GW will still have the monopoly on heavily armoured gothic sci-fi girls who actually look like an elite military force rather than oversexualised fanservice.

YMMV, I guess.

I wish Reaper would explore the sci-fi corner more. They do make some beautiful fantasy models.

 Psienesis wrote:
That army is already being planned, it's from Raging Heroes, and is going to follow the TGG model line. IIRC, the name of this army-line will be "Iron Empire" or something to that effect.

In all liklihood then the women will be in heels. I just checked and the first thing I see is an armored lady with heels.

Relapse wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
That army is already being planned, it's from Raging Heroes, and is going to follow the TGG model line. IIRC, the name of this army-line will be "Iron Empire" or something to that effect.

In all liklihood then the women will be in heels. I just checked and the first thing I see is an armored lady with heels.

Ug. I hate heels on models that are supposed to be practical combatants. Thinking of heels, GW has this weird thing I've noticed were female models with them tend to have higher initiative than the ones without them. What are they, Heels of Unnatural Quickness?

 Psienesis wrote:
That army is already being planned, it's from Raging Heroes, and is going to follow the TGG model line. IIRC, the name of this army-line will be "Iron Empire" or something to that effect.

So models about one step back from porn? Yeah, I'll pass.

ClockworkZion wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
That army is already being planned, it's from Raging Heroes, and is going to follow the TGG model line. IIRC, the name of this army-line will be "Iron Empire" or something to that effect.

In all liklihood then the women will be in heels. I just checked and the first thing I see is an armored lady with heels.

Ug. I hate heels on models that are supposed to be practical combatants. Thinking of heels, GW has this weird thing I've noticed were female models with them tend to have higher initiative than the ones without them. What are they, Heels of Unnatural Quickness?

One must master the art of walking on heels to gain +1 to their initiative. After that they become solely a limiter and if taken off their initiative would become +2 but for balancing purposes they keep them on.

Ugh, the heels.

Get over it, fan artists. John Blanche put heels on everything. The man is obsessed! His Space Marines have high heels for crying out loud!

If John Blanche was given Creative Control over GW's miniature design team, it would be Heelhammer 40,000.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ugh, the heels.

Get over it, fan artists. John Blanche put heels on everything. The man is obsessed! His Space Marines have high heels for crying out loud!

If John Blanche was given Creative Control over GW's miniature design team, it would be Heelhammer 40,000.

Power heels, with rending!

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ugh, the heels.

Get over it, fan artists. John Blanche put heels on everything. The man is obsessed! His Space Marines have high heels for crying out loud!

If John Blanche was given Creative Control over GW's miniature design team, it would be Heelhammer 40,000.

Power heels, with rending!

Str 10, ap 1, instant death

It's a little known fact that the "two power weapons" in the Death Cult Assassin's profile actually refer to her heels. The objects in their hands merely serve balancing purposes and for climbing walls.

Hey, don't bash on heels. Those things hurt like hell

Seriously, ask any physicist.

 Troike wrote:

The WD codex is a real codex! While smaller it still has the validity of another fully-fledged codex.

Sorry didn't realize I needed to be so specific:

By saying real codex I meant: A fully realized and bound separate and full Sisters of Battle focused Codex book that is the same as other fully realized and bound codecies like those for Space Marines, Chaos Marines and so on.

I was not commenting on the validity of the White Dwarf rules just pointing out that the Sisters have not had their own real bound book codex devoted solely to them pretty much since the first codex they got ages past.

Skriker

 curran12 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
That army is already being planned, it's from Raging Heroes, and is going to follow the TGG model line. IIRC, the name of this army-line will be "Iron Empire" or something to that effect.

So models about one step back from porn? Yeah, I'll pass.

That's the TGG line, in some characters (and, really, it's about 10 steps back from porn, this is fantasy/sci-fi art we're talking about here). The sci-fi knights line doesn't yet have any art for it, let alone pre-production casts, it's still 2+ years down the road.

 Psienesis wrote:

That's the TGG line, in some characters (and, really, it's about 10 steps back from porn, this is fantasy/sci-fi art we're talking about here). The sci-fi knights line doesn't yet have any art for it, let alone pre-production casts, it's still 2+ years down the road.

"This is fantasy/sci-fi" does not really excuse it from tasteless design, and Raging Heroes kinda has a good pattern of female model design. Most of their female models are either outfitted with massive tits/porn proportions, a fetishized outfit, a ridiculously showy pose or a combination of all of the above. Are there good models in there? Certainly. In fact, I'm curious to see the actual models for some of the TGG mechs as possible stand-ins for Penitent Engines. But more of them fall into the lowbrow end of the spectrum and do not fit my ideal for what I'd want Sisters of Battle to be.

Might I be proven wrong? Entirely possible. But if the past is the indicator of the future, I'm comfortable in saying I won't be.

curran12 wrote:Are there good models in there? Certainly. In fact, I'm curious to see the actual models for some of the TGG mechs as possible stand-ins for Penitent Engines.

I was thinking Necromunda gangers or maybe Xenan Imperial Guard. There they would fit, given that they are fairly close to GW's images for these groups.

But yeah, I wouldn't really expect anything fitting for the SoB from that direction either. It's an entirely different style they've displayed in the past.

 Zande4 wrote:
Most people who beg for them to get an update are doing it because it's the "in" thing and have no desire to actually collect them.

lolwut

How is this the "in" thing?

 Lynata wrote:
On a sidenote, I dig the current design of the SoB. Don't anyone dare to change them.

I love the current design as well. The question is, wouldn't we both love plastic models more? The rumor was, sculpting draped cloth is a major challenge for getting plastic Sisters out. So if plastics do show up one day, I expect the wide sleeves to be gone.

 Manchu wrote:

 Zande4 wrote:
Most people who beg for them to get an update are doing it because it's the "in" thing and have no desire to actually collect them.

lolwut

How is this the "in" thing?

It is totally the in thing. Jump on the band wagon and complain but don't spend a single cent on Sisters figures because that might mean you really like them instead of fake liking them.

I already screwed up because I put in a decent order of Sisters stuff not too long ago. That just means that I can't be on the bandwagon and I have to actually play them now...

 curran12 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
That army is already being planned, it's from Raging Heroes, and is going to follow the TGG model line. IIRC, the name of this army-line will be "Iron Empire" or something to that effect.

So models about one step back from porn? Yeah, I'll pass.

???

Take a look:




















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Flying Toaster wrote:
It is totally the in thing. Jump on the band wagon and complain but don't spend a single cent on Sisters figures because that might mean you really like them instead of fake liking them.

I assume you have some evidence for these claims?

Flying Toaster wrote:
It is totally the in thing. Jump on the band wagon and complain but don't spend a single cent on Sisters figures because that might mean you really like them instead of fake liking them.

I already screwed up because I put in a decent order of Sisters stuff not too long ago. That just means that I can't be on the bandwagon and I have to actually play them now...

Right, nobody who wants updated Sisters but doesn't collect them actually likes them. Clearly, their only appeal is being a bandwagon.

 Skriker wrote:

Sorry didn't realize I needed to be so specific:

By saying real codex I meant: A fully realized and bound separate and full Sisters of Battle focused Codex book that is the same as other fully realized and bound codecies like those for Space Marines, Chaos Marines and so on.

I was not commenting on the validity of the White Dwarf rules just pointing out that the Sisters have not had their own real bound book codex devoted solely to them pretty much since the first codex they got ages past.

Skriker

And yet, the decision was made to cut out all the Inquistion stuff and create a codex devoted fully to the Sisters. It's a good sign in itself.

 Manchu wrote:

 curran12 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
That army is already being planned, it's from Raging Heroes, and is going to follow the TGG model line. IIRC, the name of this army-line will be "Iron Empire" or something to that effect.

So models about one step back from porn? Yeah, I'll pass.

???

Take a look:

*snip*

So a lot of IG proxy units with boob armor for some reason.

I agree they're better as DKoK alts than SOB alts -- and I'm not going to get sucked into a debate about boob plate -- but they're hardly one step back from porn.

 Psienesis wrote:
That's the TGG line, in some characters (and, really, it's about 10 steps back from porn, this is fantasy/sci-fi art we're talking about here). The sci-fi knights line doesn't yet have any art for it, let alone pre-production casts, it's still 2+ years down the road.

One thing the current SoB line succeeds at is not looking like an army full of sluts, whores and prostitutes.

Really hate the concept in war games of female minis showing off all their female assets as opposed to being set up like a real military force. Women in real world militaries don't go into combat situations (where allowed) with their shirt tied up under their chest showing off their stomachs and with the buttons undone to show off their breasts and wearing thongs and high heeled shoes. They go into combat in combat gear just like everyone else and that is what I want to see in miniatures.

It is kind of like Metroid where no one ever considered this figure in full spacesuit and helmet was anything but a guy until the end scene where Samus takes off the gear to show she is in fact female.

Skriker

You do realize that I'm not talking about using TGG as Sisters proxies, right? I mean, I have said that two, three times in this thread now, though I suppose it's possible that it's been overlooked.

What I'm talking about is the previously-announced Saint Knights (or whatever they called it) line that RH mentioned would be released *after* the TGG line is complete and then *after* the rest of the Iron Empires line is released. We're talking about a set of miniatures that have not yet even been sketched yet, but the studio has made some references to that suggest it's not intended or planned to be as "cheesecake" as the TGG line.

 Manchu wrote:


Snip.

Selective vision is a wonderful thing, isn't it? Let's make sure we see the whole thing, eh?

Manchu wrote:I love the current design as well. The question is, wouldn't we both love plastic models more?

Not me.
I love the "heavy" weight of the metal - it's a purely psychological effect, but it actually lets me feel like I'm holding something of value in my fingers, and it gives them character. Kind of like an expensive chess game with wood, stone or glass > cheap plastic pieces!

I've often heard that a lot of people are hoping for plastic Sisters because they'd suddenly be a lot cheaper, and the army thus more affordable. However, when I'm looking at GW's current prices, I find that hard to believe. The only actual advantage would be their convertability, and probably a slight rise in detail - but personally, that's not enough for me to sacrifice both the firmness/weight and the current looks.

I have a feeling I'm in the minority with this opinion, though I wonder how many other dakkanauts would switch sides if we could foresee the eventual price of the minis (or their looks, fwiw).

 Lynata wrote:
Not me.
I love the "heavy" weight of the metal - it's a purely psychological effect, but it actually lets me feel like I'm holding something of value in my fingers, and it gives them character.

I've often heard that a lot of people are hoping for plastic Sisters because they'd suddenly be a lot cheaper, and the army thus more affordable. However, when I'm looking at GW's current prices, I find that hard to believe. The only actual advantage would be their convertability, and probably a slight rise in detail - but personally, that's not enough for me to sacrifice both the firmness/weight and the current looks.

I have a feeling I'm in the minority with this opinion, though I wonder how many other dakkanauts would switch sides if we could foresee the eventual price of the minis (or their looks, fwiw).

I'm with you on this entirely. You're certainly not alone.

Well, that could go either way, though, really. If we were able to divine the future price and appearance of the models, we might take up torch and pitchfork and march on GW, demanding them to take our money *NAOW!!11!one!eleven!" ... or we might string them up in the streets!

 curran12 wrote:
Snip

In what world are midriffs and nippleless werewolf boobs one step back from porn? Am I dealing with an Amish war gamer here? Get thee off the internet, Isadiah, and back to tilling thine plot! Plus, the models specifically in question were the Iron Empire ones. It's not a matter of "selective vision." It's a matter of understanding what is actually being talked about in this conversation.

And now the mods are throwing insults. Awesome.

Call me what you want, but those models are pretty much stuff that is so overtly "sexy" that I am put off by it. Something can be sexy without being overly sexualized, but when it comes to uniforms that show more flesh than anything, poses that are nothing more than pin-up poses and stuff that is clearly meant to be a nod to fetishes, it is way closer to porn than I want my minis to be. They're lowbrow and crass.

And yes, as I said, there are exceptions to this. Some are decent (and there's some I even want) but I do not trust Raging Heroes to do anything like SoB without them making it into trashy, over the top 'sexy'.

 Lynata wrote:
I've often heard that a lot of people are hoping for plastic Sisters because they'd suddenly be a lot cheaper, and the army thus more affordable.

You won't have trouble arguing against that point!

Right now, a single metal SoB goes for $6.67. A single plastic SM goes for $6.20.

The big issue is convertability, however. Plastic is easy to work with even if it lacks the satisfying heft of metal.

 curran12 wrote:
those models are pretty much stuff that is so overtly "sexy" that I am put off by it

I have no problem with someone saying "that's not for me." The problem is likening it to pornography. That's way over the top. And, again, the poster was explicitly talking about the Iron Empire models which show no skin.

Fair enough. Not quite porn, but there are way too many models out of Raging Heroes that, how do I best put this? Do sexy titillation for the sake of being sexy titillation. I find it off-putting because they have great potential for models (I own a few of them myself and apart from one annoying set of wings, they're great) but I would not be comfortable trusting anything that mirrors SoB to them.

In my observations, RH has a real big love of making things more fit a fetish ideal, a good example of this is almost all of their 'medic' female models which look like they were pulled out of a pin-up book or guide to Stereotypical Sexy Nurses. With the religious style of Sisters, I have no doubt that there would be a lot of really overt use of sexy nun tropes and armor that exposes more flesh than would really make any sense other than to be 'sexy'.

When you put it like that, I agree ... which is why I didn't pledge with their KS. I am currently on a pirate skirmish kick and bought a ton of stuff from Black Scorpion -- but NO female pirates, which seem a tad more pin-up in style than I have in mind for my games. Now, I still bought miniatures from them and I may still by female pirates from them -- Pirate Girls Set 2 looks pretty great actually. Same thing with the Iron Empire models, at least IMO.

Agreed. Apart from the girl on the far right, that Set 2 is pretty nice. It has that rare quality of subtlety and restraint which is solely lacking from a lot of female minis.

And then you get the Pirate Girls set 3....

I have to say, Set 2 looks really good, actually.
Pirates aren't exactly known for their modesty, so a bit of skin would be expected imo - it's a shame they went overboard with some of the figs in Set 1...

As for the Iron Empire girls, my only real issue with them would be the legs on about half of them. Fairly minor point, though, and one that may not even be that obvious with the final minis. May.

The current SoB have just the right level of bulkiness, although maybe that's just the familiarity talking.

[edit] Even the right girl in Set 2. I mean, we're talking pirates here - the blouses and corsets were common in that era, and maybe she just ripped her skirt off to have more freedom for her legs.

To run and fight and climb the rigging.

Even the girl in her petticoat doesn't bother me, really. I mean, the other three are crossdressing after all so I don't see anything too weird about one being in her underwear, which is equivalent to a contemporary summer dress anyway. The peekaboo and cocunut-hammock cleavage OTOH are not what I have in mind for my pirate skirmishes. My first female model buy from Black Scorpion will no doubt be the Governor's daughter, a kind of counts-as Elizabeth Swann from Curse of the Black Pearl. That model is also a good example of how a sculpt of a female character can be sexy/feminine without being crude/titillating. The Iron Empire ladies are neither -- the boob plates, I think are just to alleviate any ambiguities. That's the territory I'd say the current Sisters models occupy and where I hope they stay.

 Manchu wrote:
Even the girl in her petticoat doesn't bother me, really. I mean, the other three are crossdressing after all so I don't see anything too weird about one being in her underwear, which is equivalent to a contemporary summer dress anyway. The peekaboo and cocunut-hammock cleavage OTOH are not what I have in mind for my pirate skirmishes. My first female model buy from Black Scorpion will no doubt be the Governor's daughter, a kind of counts-as Elizabeth Swann from Curse of the Black Pearl. That model is also a good example of how a sculpt of a female character can be sexy/feminine without being crude/titillating. The Iron Empire ladies are neither -- the boob plates, I think are just to alleviate any ambiguities. That's the territory I'd say the current Sisters models occupy and where I hope they stay.

Yeah. I agree pretty wholeheartedly with this. There's a difference between having femininity and sex appeal and being over the top showy of it. That's why I like the current Sisters models for the most part because they are feminine without it being "LOOK AT THIS TATAS!" and bending the Sisters into ridiculous spine-ruining poses just to show them off.

What I like most about the TGG line, for use as IG or Necromundans?

Most of them aren't wearing heels.

It's the convertability that's got me wanting plastics, to be honest.

I already have enough Sisters to play with.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's the convertability that's got me wanting plastics, to be honest.

Same. Although I am also hoping plastics will make getting special and heavy weapons more affordable. A single SM Devestator is currently $11 (when you buy a kit of 5). A single Retributor is currently $23.

I've always loved the Sisters as an army, and a concept in the lore. I even thought the alliance with the Ordo Hereticus made a lot of sense, and added tons of character.

What prevented me from developing my army past 1,500pts was that the model range was very restrictive. Now conversions are possible, but the effort required in sawing, repositioning and sculpting Sister miniatures was prohibitive. I think this is a core issue that needs to be addressed in any update.

Furthermore, my prediction based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever is that the Sisters will get a full Codex, incorporating to core Order forces, and Ecclesiarchy support (Arco-flagellants, Penitent Engines, priests, and so forth) with undoubtedly a few new units.
The =][= on the other hand will become a Supplement for all Imperial armies. Therefore granting the three Ordos Majoris, with their own little gimmicks, Assassin operatives, Orbital Strikes, Special Characters, and some interesting thematic units. Some simple special rules keeps all parties happy- I get my Witch Hunters, purists get SoB Codex.

We dance, we kiss, we schmooze, we carry on, go home happy...

As a silly aside, a special rule I'd love would be "No-one expects the Inquisition"- add +1 to seize the initiative roles.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's the convertability that's got me wanting plastics, to be honest.

I already have enough Sisters to play with.

Yeah, same. I want plastics to convert. The solid metal mono-pose sisters have to go.

And you know what else plastics would mean? Bitz for sale. Need an extra part? Just order one.

I priced out a 1500 point SoB army versus the equivalent SM army. The Sisters ended up at 45 cents/point while the Marines were 23 cents/point. The model count was roughly the same. Now that GW has released the Chaos cultists, perhaps the Frateris Militia will make a return.

One note on the armor, it seems that the basic appearance of power armor would remain relatively constant, whether worn by Sisters or Marines. The Sisters kind of fill a gap between the standard humans of IG and the mutated SM.

 Skriker wrote:


Really hate the concept in war games of female minis showing off all their female assets as opposed to being set up like a real military force. Women in real world militaries don't go into combat situations (where allowed) with their shirt tied up under their chest showing off their stomachs and with the buttons undone to show off their breasts and wearing thongs and high heeled shoes. They go into combat in combat gear just like everyone else and that is what I want to see in miniatures.

Skriker

Yeah, cause the rest of 40K is so rooted in military reality...

To be fair, he did say wargaming in general, where oversexualisation has become an established industry standard. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with nudity where it fits (for example Conan'esque barbarian themes), but "professional looking" female troops are worryingly hard to find in this hobby.

And as for 40k, it does have its silly places, but it just as much has areas rooted in practicality, and the SoB line troops occupy one such niche as far as their equipment is concerned. As do IG Storm Troopers, or the Cadians.

Imagine the uproar if Space Marines would suddenly have belly-free armour to show off their six-packs!

There already are Space Marines with belly-free armor to show off their six-packs.

They're called Catachans.

No one ever complains about Catachans. No one ever calls them sexist, despite the fact that their outfits are probably the most dysfunctional of all the Imperium line-ups.

That's called a homage, though. Nobody ever complains about the Escher gang, either, or the aforementioned Xenan Guard regiments.

Coincidentally, this happens to be a good example for the "nudity has its place where it fits to the background" bit I mentioned above.

And for the record, I like the current Repentia design as well, because the same line of thinking applies there.

Bye bye Sisters. I feel sorry for their fanbase. Id like to see everybody get what they want, however GW doesnt share my views.

I'll Telll you the straight and honest truth.....

Sob look terrible, play terrible, don't even have a real dex, and are a cross between IG and sm. I would be fine if I never saw them again.

ninjafiredragon wrote:
I'll Telll you the straight and honest truth.....

Sob look terrible, play terrible, don't even have a real dex, and are a cross between IG and sm. I would be fine if I never saw them again.

All but one of these is very much your opinion.

Ive never been a fan but I respect those of us who are. I hope you guys have your day, but honestly the way things are going I really doubt it.

 Psienesis wrote:
That army is already being planned, it's from Raging Heroes, and is going to follow the TGG model line. IIRC, the name of this army-line will be "Iron Empire" or something to that effect.

Considering how long it took them to get the kickstarter off the ground I'm not exactly waiting with baited breath... Did anyone else notice they haven't touched their Facebook page nor even their own site a fraction of what they did when promoting KS... We don't even an e any idea when they'll be filling KS orders nevertheless selling to the rest of us..
Rant over!


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ninjafiredragon wrote:
I'll Telll you the straight and honest truth.....

Sob look terrible, play terrible, don't even have a real dex, and are a cross between IG and sm. I would be fine if I never saw them again.

Useless troll much?

That there is the problem, mac. That's what GW needs to change. It's not necessarily about pleasing every fan, but more of a consistency. Clearly there are some diehard SoB fans here and in other forums, and I'm sure seeing the army get a whole makeover is refreshing, and I say this as a hobbiest first, because seeing something different is always nice.
Though I respect your opinion completely, and I'm not looking for an argument.

'Nother thing plastics would do, give them a presence in the damn stores again. I'm tired of having to order my Sisters in-store and waiting until Thursday to pick them up, dammit.

Strayan wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
That army is already being planned, it's from Raging Heroes, and is going to follow the TGG model line. IIRC, the name of this army-line will be "Iron Empire" or something to that effect.

Considering how long it took them to get the kickstarter off the ground I'm not exactly waiting with baited breath... Did anyone else notice they haven't touched their Facebook page nor even their own site a fraction of what they did when promoting KS... We don't even an e any idea when they'll be filling KS orders nevertheless selling to the rest of us..
Rant over!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ninjafiredragon wrote:
I'll Telll you the straight and honest truth.....

Sob look terrible, play terrible, don't even have a real dex, and are a cross between IG and sm. I would be fine if I never saw them again.

Useless troll much?

Nah... Just didnt want to lie.

ninjafiredragon wrote:
I'll Telll you the straight and honest truth.....

Sob look terrible, play terrible, don't even have a real dex, and are a cross between IG and sm. I would be fine if I never saw them again.

Incredibly useful and interesting addition to the discussion.

ninjafiredragon wrote:

Strayan wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
That army is already being planned, it's from Raging Heroes, and is going to follow the TGG model line. IIRC, the name of this army-line will be "Iron Empire" or something to that effect.

Considering how long it took them to get the kickstarter off the ground I'm not exactly waiting with baited breath... Did anyone else notice they haven't touched their Facebook page nor even their own site a fraction of what they did when promoting KS... We don't even an e any idea when they'll be filling KS orders nevertheless selling to the rest of us..
Rant over!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ninjafiredragon wrote:
I'll Telll you the straight and honest truth.....

Sob look terrible, play terrible, don't even have a real dex, and are a cross between IG and sm. I would be fine if I never saw them again.

Useless troll much?

Nah... Just didnt want to lie.

By adding a completely useless opinion and presenting it as fact.

You must be so proud of yourself.

Troike wrote:'Nother thing plastics would do, give them a presence in the damn stores again. I'm tired of having to order my Sisters in-store and waiting until Thursday to pick them up, dammit.

That's another weird GW business decision rather than a fault of them being metal, though. I remember a time when they were still sold in boxes of 10 - and available in local stores!

I have no idea why they broke up the boxes. Probably because selling them individually or in packs of 3 is more expensive.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Bye bye Sisters. I feel sorry for their fanbase. Id like to see everybody get what they want, however GW doesnt share my views.

Unfortunately I must agree with you. I don't actually believe we'll ever get a new codex with new figures. GW just doesn't care and they're too busy making Space Marines.

And for the troll who thinks his opinions are facts: Sisters don't play terrible. They're actually not bad. Not great, but certainly not bad. I think the models look great, why I bought them in the first place. And the codex...you're right there. we don't have a proper, legally obtainable codex because GW hates us.

If they weren't going to make us new figures, then why were there reports from a highly reliable source of them trying to make new SoB models?

Those rumors (re: new SoB figs) are... five years old now?

I mean, I, too, would love to see a new SoB line. Shoot, I replaced my old C;WH the last time I was at Powell's in Portland purely out of nostalgia.

I just think it's one of those armies that keeps getting shuffled around in the deck of "Codices to update" as some other army that interests the studio to a greater degree pops up, time and time again.

While it is likely the army that keeps getting shuffled back, the new, fast-paced release schedule will likely address that.

The fact that the SoB line has fallen way behind GW's evolving manufacturing model is not evidence that GW plans on abandoning them. There are a lot of holes in the lines right now. And who can be surprised that GW would rather focus on MEQ?

My own opinion is SoB were probably slated for an overhaul along with DE and Necrons in the final years of 5E. If the rumors are to be believed, this was held up because of difficulties with nailing the sculpts for plastic troops.

Looking at what GW's doing now, I don't think we'll see a SoB release soon. The recent releases haven't entailed new troop sculpts -- they're mostly adding to lines these days. Once we see SM, Ork, and IG hardcovers, then we can start thinking about a SoB release again.

Until then, there's no point moaning.

Is there another army still stuck in metal-only figures? That doesn't have basic troops in at least five-fig boxes?

Of all the armies that have been "back burnered", I think SoB is, far and away, the most-neglected of their still-viable product lines.

If I remember, I think GW stated that they weren't going to Squat another army. What armies were currently out are going to stay, nothing new added and nothing removed.

This being said, GW isn't going to update them for a while. I don't think their gonna go off the market, but I don't think their gonna get anything new. I would love to see every army get equal treatment, but we all know GW doesn't work that way.

"Squatting" an army means that there is a statement from the studio that explains what happened to them in-universe. In-universe, the Squats are all dead, their worlds destroyed by Tyranids, and that's it, they're dead, Jim. ALL DEAD.

... GW doesn't need to do that with an army it wants to stop working on, they just simply put no effort towards supporting it. No new models, no Codex update, vanishes out of mentions in other army Codices, etc.

We, the fans of the SoB faction, would like to remind GW that, while this army exists, its model line is woefully out-of-date, comparatively over-priced, hard to come by, and its current Codex is impossible to get through legal means.

GW is kind of sending contradictory signals here. The miniatures I can (sort of) understand - they still work, they look cool, they are "just" a bit expensive. Nothing GW needs to care about. On the other hand, the Codex not being available as a PDF on their website is a massive oversight I just can't explain with anything other than a ton of red tape and an utter lack of /care within the company.

The weird thing is that they wouldn't have needed to release even the 5E dex, not to mention the SoB articles with special missions, painting guides and Apoc formations spread over several issues of White Dwarf following the Codex release. All of this is an investment of manpower that shouldn't be there if the company really just wanted to ignore them away.

The massive amount of rumours doesn't help to get an idea of what is truly going on, same for interviews with GW people who have been saying the same thing for several years now.

washout77 wrote:If I remember, I think GW stated that they weren't going to Squat another army

Still waiting for anyone that can actually name the source of this.

 Lynata wrote:
Still waiting for anyone that can actually name the source of this.

It's more or less what Jervis says here.

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/enter-citadel-sisters-of-battleblack.html

Every army is getting worked on and will be updated in time.

Could be that people are referencing a similar quote.

Troike wrote:It's more or less what Jervis says here.

No, I'm really referring to that "never squat an army again" bit that gets thrown around as a supposed fact for as long as I've been on dakka. Everybody just repeats it, but I've never seen a quote.

It's not that I doubt GW retaining the SoB - I just don't think they would ever make such a clear-cut statement/promise about the company's future.
As such, my request is also not really relevant to the topic at hand, but rather a bit of curiosity at what I deem yet another urban rumour that I keep hearing again and again, sorta along the lines of "everything is canon" or "Movie Marines = real SM" and other such popular assumptions.

 Lynata wrote:
No, I'm really referring to that "never squat an army again" bit that gets thrown around as a supposed fact for as long as I've been on dakka.

Right, what I was getting at is that it may have surfaced from a quote similar to that, but been twisted through multiple retellings and misremembrances into to what we see today.

Oh. Yeah, my guess would be something like that, too. Probably even something taken out of context from Jervis' post on the Fanatic forum - that is, at least to my knowledge, one of the few and simultaneously the longest statement someone from GW ever made about the removal of the Squats.

The squats might not be dead.Didnt some other race join the Tau that also happens to be short and mechanicalAlso:they can't be all dead.A few could have been on other planets even if their home world were,nom,nom,nommed.

Da krimson barun wrote:
The squats might not be dead.Didnt some other race join the Tau that also happens to be short and mechanicalAlso:they can't be all dead.A few could have been on other planets even if their home world were,nom,nom,nommed.

You're thinking of the Demiurg.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Demiurg#.UgVGpm3BzAw

And sure, a few Squats must have survived. Dan Abnett even has a Squat in one of his books.

It was just an off-hand comment Jervis threw around to rationalise why the Squats as a faction have suddenly vanished from the galactic stage.
Not even Andy Hoare remembers it, as you can read on ADB's blog.

The Tau Ally you are referring to are the Demiurg. There's some fluff about them and their starships in this PDF hosted on GW's Battlefleet Gothic website.

It is of note that the current 6E 40k Rulebook names Squats as one of the existing Abhuman variants, similar to Ratlings.

[edit] Damn, assassintemple'd.

Dan has a character who claims to be a descendant of the Squats, but is, on the page, just a short, ugly, and not-terribly-bright character. Whether this guy is actually descended from Squats is anyone's guess.

As far as I recall reading, Squats aren't extinct in the fluff, but there's just so few of them that they don't matter in any shape or form.

Anyway, the SoB Codex availability is indeed a bit of a mystery. If they're not planning on releasing a new one any time soon, why didn't they at least put out a paid-for digital version as soon as they started making digital codices? Or even just the free PDF well before that? After all, both the WD issues had been all sold long ago, so it certainly wouldn't have hurt sales, and most certainly would've boosted SoB miniature sales.

I myself am in the strange position that I have the army list issue of WD around somewhere (though come to think of it, I dunno where the heck I put it), but not the first one with the fluff and special rules. Would've gotten it if the local SoB player hadn't lost 1-2 first ones he had and then had to take the third that available at the LGS. Heheh. Anyway, I can make lists with Army Builder, but I'm obviously a bit unclear on the Acts of Faith and all that due to not having the first issue. It's one part of why I still don't have Sisters.

I've never actually seen a physical copy of the WD codex.

Heh, come to think of it, neither have I, at least not in person. xD
I'll give you a present tvih.

Sisters are more likely to get revamped than say Steel Legion. Mostly because they're not in direct competition with any other force of a similar nature currently being produced (ie. DKoK). I would love to see them get some resculpts. I picked up Tau second-hand to have a second army next to my Eldar, but I'm not really a fan of the Battlesuits. I'm going to shelve them and repaint them in the future for sale. Battle sisters though are the only Power Armored army that looks good to me. Never was a fan of the SMurfs and lost my love of Chaos. Plus, I'd love to do a split Sisters/Inquisitor army like the old Witchhunters Codex.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I've never actually seen a physical copy of the WD codex.

got 2 extra sets lol.

mm, I'd still like a physical copy - but it always goes for crazy prices.

 Ovion wrote:
mm, I'd still like a physical copy - but it always goes for crazy prices.

Not always. I got mine for about four quid.

Protip: look for them by their issue numbers rather than as the SoB codex. They seem to sell cheaper if they're just being sold as regular White Dwarfs.

I have, and do, but I've not found them for less than £10 each so far, and it usually averages £30+ for the whole 'book'.

It's just a matter of getting lucky in some ways, and the longer time goes on, the rarer they become.
Would be nice to have a set though.

I had an electronic version of it, read about how hard it is to find and it being pricey. So I decided to buy it anyway. I always seem to buy something and then it gets a revamp overhaul. IE bought 5th edition rulebook. 1 month later 6th edition comes out. Figured I could take one for the team and make "fate" update the codex to spite me. Unfortunately it didn't work. Was hoping for a wash your car friday and have it rain a few hours later deal.

I think we'll see a good indicator of the fate of the sisters next month. I've heard rumors that Black Templar are included in the new SM Codex. If Black Templar are rolled into the new Space Marine Codex, sisters more than likely will not receive their own book. If anything, they'll get rolled int a 6th ed Grey Knight book, or an inquisition book.

Mhm, I don't think whatever happens to the Black Templars is or should be taken as any sort of indication regarding the eventual fate of the SoB. The BT are just one of many sub-factions of Vanilla Space Marines, whereas the SoB are and started out as an independent army.

It's one thing to throw a Marine Chapter back into the standard book and just attach 2-3 pages with fluff, special rules and maybe an SC, but quite another to force an entire army that once had its own full-blown Codex into another book. It didn't really work all that well with the WH Codex already (given the loss of fluff pages and the Frateris Militia), but seeing them forced into the same book with Grey Knights would really just reduce them to an unattractive footnote, similar to buying a GK Codex but then running an army that consists solely of an Inquisitor and Henchmen. I would hope that the massive reduction in wargear and other options in the 5E Minidex was not meant to be a testbed for such a move.

Plus, it makes no sense to merge them with the Grey Knights. Templars and Marines? Manes sense, Templars are a subset of Marines. Give them their own rules and units and you're good. Sisters, however, have nothing to do with the Grey Knights. They're completely distinct forces in fluff and crunch. As for an Inquisition book, that remains a terrible idea and I sure do wish that the internet would stop suggesting it while we have several different Marine codexes.

Lynata wrote:Mhm, I don't think whatever happens to the Black Templars is or should be taken as any sort of indication regarding the eventual fate of the SoB. The BT are just one of many sub-factions of Vanilla Space Marines, whereas the SoB are and started out as an independent army.

It's one thing to throw a Marine Chapter back into the standard book and just attach 2-3 pages with fluff, special rules and maybe an SC, but quite another to force an entire army that once had its own full-blown Codex into another book. It didn't really work all that well with the WH Codex already (given the loss of fluff pages and the Frateris Militia), but seeing them forced into the same book with Grey Knights would really just reduce them to an unattractive footnote, similar to buying a GK Codex but then running an army that consists solely of an Inquisitor and Henchmen. I would hope that the massive reduction in wargear and other options in the 5E Minidex was not meant to be a testbed for such a move.

Troike wrote:Plus, it makes no sense to merge them with the Grey Knights. Templars and Marines? Makes sense, Templars are a subset of Marines. Give them their own rules and units and you're good. Sisters, however, have nothing to do with the Grey Knights. They're completely distinct forces in fluff and crunch. As for an Inquisition book, that remains a terrible idea and I sure do wish that the internet would stop suggesting it while we have several different Marine codexes.

To have faith is fine, to ignore the possible reasons to merge or not to merge armies isn't going to protect your favorite army. What matters to GW? I'd guess $,€ etc... So if some beancounters think they can't justifiy books for marines who are probably always selling well, why should they take the risk of a SoB dex?
How many of the typical GW customer base remember there are SoB?
If one can merge non-compliant marines into a codex-lovers dex, if they can alter the necrons, give and take units
( last casualty maybe necron pariah ) , could those not "update" the SoB to fit into an =I= book?

Currently GW started to split their publications into:

- Rulebook
- Apoc
- Limited Editions of many products
- Codices
- supplements
- warzones
- fluff snippets ( DLC )

The have gone so far to 'serialize' a story which is part of a series of stories. ( HH . Scars ).

The course seems to be to split everything into as many pieces as possible. Based on that I consider to merge things is an exception IMHO.

Am sure the SoB are in trouble now. GW has orks and nids waiting, maybe IG too.
Any line of thinking one can imagine from recent releases does fit nicely with orks and nids ( IG is so "Galaxy-encompassing" there is always a way to "add" new toys ). Who is a candidate for problems?

2 Theories:

a) No one had an idea how to push some toyish models into a BT army but they had the toys already 'infiltrated' into codex Space Marines. Just kick the BT into the general SM bag and you don't have to justify the models because its C: SM now...

b) They changed horses . Instead of multiple codices and a few supplements the course is set towards some codices and multiple supplements and don't forget the 'limited' variant of everything too.
A codex SM provides tons of supplements.
A codex BT ? Is just a single theme. Codex DA provides maybe a supplement, codex BA too. Codex SW ??? Maybe wulfen... And the SoB? without an expansion in the dex, where do you take the supplements from?

This makes a few combos possible:
- codex GK is redone as codex =I= in lack of 'supplements' to tack on.
- SoB are put into that book again. 3 supplements: Malleus, Hereticus, Xenos. ( GK , SoB, henchmen/Deathwatch ).

Fair treatment? Are supplements fair when a warband like Abbys has one, a Craftworld like Iyanden too, some free Tau in case of Farsight also, and maybe the different colors of SM in form of supplement per Legio ? Are they?
If we add ork klans, nid fleets, IG recrutement worlds ( Cadia...) , necron dynasties,...
If we add BA ? DA ? SW ? DE ? GK ?

I really really like fluff. But a endless stream of supplements....
Info which made it into WD, filled CA and IA, is now sold piecemeal. I fear they are loving it.

So best luck to stay "alive" ( not go extinct ) or on "your own feet" ( out of the =I= ) .
The Emperor protects. Sometimes.

PS: where did SoB get a positive showing in a SM codex? Hint: its only one.

For the time being, I don't see a reason for the doom and gloom. If GW is out of ideas, they'll just "forget" about the SoB for a few years again like they did before the 5E minidex. Not ideal, but I suppose we're used to it by now.

I also don't see GW feeling a "need" to add supplements to every single 'dex... not with their history of keeping the Sisters up-to-date. That being said, if one would really have to come up with SoB supplements, there is some material to draw upon, from the Frateris Militia / Zealots (3E Chapter Approved WD addon) to Andy Hoare's drop-podding Anti-Astartes army list (CJ #49) or earlier Special Characters such as Canoness Praxedes or Helena the Virtuous (2E 'dex). GW would only have to draw upon the things they have released already, and they have certainly displayed the ability to come up with new things as well.
Supplements need not always be about sub-factions, after all.

PS: I actually like the concept of supplements.. They are a neat way of rerouting sensible/cool addons to basic codices into optional expansions. They would be the perfect way to bring the Inquisition (with ISTs and DW) back into the game as well - as a supplement available to all Imperial codices!

Also, even though this practice will likely transfer the material out from WD - I think it's actually better that way. White Dwarf, although it looked like it would recover for a while, very much looks like a lost cause to me. There's no need to buy a magazine filled 50% with ads, 35% with stuff from other games, and 10% with 40k that doesn't concern your army just for the 5% that are the article you're actually after. Plus, I would assume that supplements can always be purchased from GW directly or even from your LGS ... old issues of White Dwarf can be much trickier to hunt down, as SoB players currently looking for their tournament-legal Codex know all too well.

[edit] I empathise with the Black Templars (not in the least because they're one of my favourite Marine Chapters, and an obvious ally for my favourite army as a whole), but unlike Troike I do believe in the idea of putting any and all Chapters into supplements rather than copypasta-ing half their stuff into Codex after Codex. At the end of the day, and regardless of the insistence of their fans that they are "special", they are still sub-factions. A Black Templar, a Space Wolf, a Blood Angel will always be a Marine first, BT/SW/BA second. The same cannot be said for the SoB, so I just don't see the relationship between their cases.
And do you see IG players complaining? The difference between the regiments is way larger than between Astartes Chapters, yet with the exception of Codex Catachans or the Eye of Terror minilist, everything was always stuffed into C:IG. The most you could ask for was doctrines, and even such rules were not present in every edition.

Goresaw wrote:
If Black Templar are rolled into the new Space Marine Codex, sisters more than likely will not receive their own book.

That's a terrible argument.

You could easily have expanded Penitent stuff, with extra 'forsaken' units too, so that's a third supplement there.

 1hadhq wrote:
How many of the typical GW customer base remember there are SoB?

Assuming for the sake of argument (since I actually think this is incorrect) that the answer to your question is "few," this is still not a problem with the SoB design/fluff itself. Rather, this is a problem with GW.

Too many BT fans ITT sublimating hurt feelings onto SoB ...

Ugh, sorry if I came off a little hostile in my last post. Just woke up.

 1hadhq wrote:
So if some beancounters think they can't justifiy books for marines who are probably always selling well, why should they take the risk of a SoB dex?
How many of the typical GW customer base remember there are SoB?

To be fair, the same could have very much been said about the Dark Eldar at one point, and they came back fine. Additionally, the Sisters may not have been updated previously due to modelling issues. Hastings (or Harry, one of them) from Warseer mentioned that GW were actively trying to make plastic Sisters at one point, but had problems with it. This implies and active attempt to update them, and we could very well see the fruits of that sooner or later. Especially with the much quicker release schedule.

And in regards to the fanbase, quite a few from where I'm standing! A fair few people at my local GW have said they'd pick up plastic Sisters if they were to be released.

 Lynata wrote:
but unlike Troike I do believe in the idea of putting any and all Chapters into supplements rather than copypasta-ing half their stuff into Codex after Codex.

? I would support that idea too. I've said in the past that I feel there's too many Marine codexes. Supplements would be a good way to address this. I guess you misunderstood when I said "give them their own rules and units and you're good". I meant within the vanilla Marine codex or a supplement to it, in order to keep them distinct. Which seems to be what is happening with the Templars now.

Troike wrote:? I would support that idea too. I've said in the past that I feel there's too many Marine codexes. Supplements would be a good way to address this. I guess you misunderstood when I said "give them their own rules and units and you're good". I meant within the vanilla Marine codex or a supplement to it, in order to keep them distinct. Which seems to be what is happening with the Templars now.

Huh ... I was going by what you posted over in that other thread with the poll.

Although I have to say that I actually feel that right now BT should still get a proper Codex, too.
Putting Chapters into supplements should not happen until there actually is a proper "Codex: Generic Marines" that would support this relationship with its selection of content and the way it is organised. Plus, I feel it'd be somewhat unfair to give the Black Templars less than the Dark Angels just because the latter got their book before GW would make this decision.
It might be the ideal approach for 7th edition, perhaps ...

Oh, fair enough. I just sympathised a lot with the Templar fans, given that they've had a similar issue looming over them as us SoB fans. But now the rumours are indicating that it's been handled in a fairly acceptable way, I can't say I'm opposed to the outcome.

And like I said before, a Templar and SoB force is now feasible!

 Troike wrote:
given that they've had a similar issue looming over them as us SoB fans

What issue do you mean?

 Manchu wrote:

 Troike wrote:
given that they've had a similar issue looming over them as us SoB fans

What issue do you mean?

Both being largely ignored by GW, of course.

Sure, if we're only measuring by most recent release then I suppose SoB have gotten more attention than BT. But of course that's a ridiculous way to look at things. I'd call that "SM entitlement syndrome." BT, despite their many differences from codex standard SM, remain a SM subfaction. Every time any SM get a new model, BT -- with minimal conversion -- pretty much get a new model, as well. BT players can and do proxy out of other SM books all the time. And seriously, even before Fifth Edition, not even Deldar were in as bad of straights as SoB, much less BT. While I generally don't like playing "I have it the worst," it seems a reality check is in order when BT and SoB are said to have "similar issues."

I said similar, not identical. Both weren't really focused on as armies, and thus came to have concerns about their respective futures. And I can sympathise with that.

Yes, even apples and oranges have similarities. But they are still apples and oranges.

Lynata wrote:For the time being, I don't see a reason for the doom and gloom.

Maybe I wasn't positive enough.
I blame the crappy and cheaply made "wall of dead Cadians" pieces I am currently painting.
Very Sorry.

Lynata wrote:
Supplements need not always be about sub-factions, after all.

PS: I actually like the concept of supplements.. They are a neat way of rerouting sensible/cool addons to basic codices into optional expansions. They would be the perfect way to bring the Inquisition (with ISTs and DW) back into the game as well - as a supplement available to all Imperial codices!

We will see what happens if they add a supplement to DA. Thats the only current 6th dex who could have something called a "sub-faction" supplement.
But I don't believe we will see substantial supplements. Just a twist to units from their main dex plus characters and some rules and fluff.

Your take on supplements would be a return to 3rd ed. Like Codex SM plus DA / BA / SW / armageddon. Or BRB providing Inquisition as alllies. Or Deathwatch. GK strike teams. LotD.
Trails off.......
Yes I would hop on this train of thought.

Lynata wrote: I do believe in the idea of putting any and all Chapters into supplements rather than copypasta-ing half their stuff into Codex after Codex.

You realize there would be 18 (20) Legions of hundredthousands of Astartes with almost identical gear around if it wasn't for this heresy? Can't have no copy&paste or only a few things.

Lynata wrote:
A Black Templar, a Space Wolf, a Blood Angel will always be a Marine first, BT/SW/BA second. The same cannot be said for the SoB, so I just don't see the relationship between their cases.

The relationsship isn't : flavor of astartes - flavor of sisters. Its ignored by GW - ignored by GW.

Lynata wrote:And do you see IG players complaining?

You need a lot of will to be IG. Those who complain....I'd look for them under "CSM"....

Manchu wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:
How many of the typical GW customer base remember there are SoB?

Assuming for the sake of argument (since I actually think this is incorrect) that the answer to your question is "few," this is still not a problem with the SoB design/fluff itself. Rather, this is a problem with GW.

"Problem with GW" was the point I was going for. At least I thought my post would say that.

Manchu wrote:Too many BT fans ITT sublimating hurt feelings onto SoB ...

I had to look this up. Not sure if I got it right, but I don't see anyone of the "BT" fans doing this.

Troike wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:
So if some beancounters think they can't justifiy books for marines who are probably always selling well, why should they take the risk of a SoB dex?
How many of the typical GW customer base remember there are SoB?

To be fair, the same could have very much been said about the Dark Eldar at one point, and they came back fine. Additionally, the Sisters may not have been updated previously due to modelling issues. Hastings (or Harry, one of them) from Warseer mentioned that GW were actively trying to make plastic Sisters at one point, but had problems with it. This implies and active attempt to update them, and we could very well see the fruits of that sooner or later. Especially with the much quicker release schedule.

Have your fruits.

Am a bit wary of the companies course right now. It seems changed. Just a feeling.
To prevent derailment, let me point to the GD Germany thread if you want to see why.

Troike wrote:And in regards to the fanbase, quite a few from where I'm standing! A fair few people at my local GW have said they'd pick up plastic Sisters if they were to be released.

Good. there is hope.

I had to rely upon dakka. And no local GW.

Troike wrote: I meant within the vanilla Marine codex or a supplement to it, in order to keep them distinct. Which seems to be what is happening with the Templars now.

Still rumors.

Troike wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Troike wrote:
given that they've had a similar issue looming over them as us SoB fans

What issue do you mean?

Both being largely ignored by GW, of course.

To be ignored,yes.
Can't say I like what there may be because an army of mine did show up on their radar before I have seen what is in this codex myself.



Codex SM covers 2013. 2014 is more xenos and IG? sisters are 2015? 2016? 7th ed?

@1hadhq: I mean, BT fans (or at least those claiming to learn from what's happening with BT, regardless of whether they are fans) are taking their disappointment with GW folding BT into the next Sm dex and channeling that into the gloomy opinion that SoB will be ignored/squatted. It's definitely happening ITT.

 Lynata wrote:
Although I have to say that I actually feel that right now BT should still get a proper Codex, too.
Putting Chapters into supplements should not happen until there actually is a proper "Codex: Generic Marines" that would support this relationship with its selection of content and the way it is organised. Plus, I feel it'd be somewhat unfair to give the Black Templars less than the Dark Angels just because the latter got their book before GW would make this decision.
It might be the ideal approach for 7th edition, perhaps ...

If GW had been smart about it and they seldom are, they would have released a brand new Space Marine codex in the slot they released Dark Angels into with Dark Angels being a quick followup supplemental. Perfect time to reign in the different chapter codex insanities. After all the real differences between the chapters are minimal, unless they have to come up with a full codex of new goodies to validate writing a full codex in the first place. When you read the fluff for so many years it is clear that the chapters have their esoteric differences, but generally use the same equipment and the same roles and units in their forces even if the chapter calls them something else (Devastators/Long Fangs, Tacticals/Grey Hunters, Assaults/Blood Claws). Make all the different vehicle variants available to any chapter as well.

Of course this doesn't help the SoB at all.

Skriker

I wonder if there will be any SoB in this supposed Inquisition-themed skirmish game in the fall? Would be a nice preview of things (potentially) to come ...

Skriker wrote:If GW had been smart about it and they seldom are, they would have released a brand new Space Marine codex in the slot they released Dark Angels into with Dark Angels being a quick followup supplemental. Perfect time to reign in the different chapter codex insanities.

Yes, exactly. These supplements seem to be a pretty new decision - one that, at least in the case of the Space Marines, they've decided to introduce at one of the worst possible moments. Oh well ...

It does make me wonder what this might mean for the other Chapters, though I have a feeling BA and SW would still get a full Codex rather than a supplement, just because that's how it's been for years - and judging from the other thread, they are supposedly missing from the main Codex entirely.

Skriker wrote:After all the real differences between the chapters are minimal, unless they have to come up with a full codex of new goodies to validate writing a full codex in the first place.

On that note, I have to say that I'm pretty sceptical regarding the addition of new units such as those Centurions. Although the concept is cool, the addition of such a fundamentally "different" unit after all those decades of the Marines having had a fairly stable Chapter organisation is something that I as someone who likes consistency in their setting fail to appreciate. I mean, the Centurions essentially necessitate a rework of the entire Chapter structure, don't they? Vehicle variants are one thing, but this ...

Manchu wrote:I wonder if there will be any SoB in this supposed Inquisition-themed skirmish game in the fall? Would be a nice preview of things (potentially) to come ...

Now that's an interesting thought. It probably depends on how much they let their own material inspire them. The Inquisitor game already had SoB characters, after all (even though they were not in the core rulebook, but only added later via magazine and website articles).

The word is that these models will be 28mm rather than 54mm. So if there is a Sister in it ... well, like I said, a nice taste of things to come.

 Manchu wrote:
Yes, even apples and oranges have similarities. But they are still apples and oranges.

But both armies were largely ignored by GW and fans of each grew concerned about their army's future. That's a pretty obvious fact. Sure there's differences in exactly how they were ignored, but overall it was still a case of both not getting much attention and concerned fans.

You keep talking like BT is a faction when it's merely a subfaction that happened to get its own dex and now happens to not have one. It's like saying Catachans have been ignored since 2001.

The new Catachan sprue is just a few extra pieces. Atleast BT have the sweet conversion kit. The only non-FW themed Rhino and Land Raider doors.

I see from a report form Gamesday Germany there is a report that Jervis has confirmed that SoB are been worked on.

-one guy actually asked why there were so very few female characters in 40k, to general good-natured amusement - they said it was mainly because they have almost no women in their team, so they kind of fear that anything they might do could be involuntarily sexist, or something along those lines
-Sisters of Battle are definitely in the works, but still some way off, according to Jerv

This is in a report from Tyrendian on BOL's
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?34864-Gamesday-Germany-2013-Master-Roundup/page2

 Manchu wrote:
You keep talking like BT is a faction when it's merely a subfaction that happened to get its own dex and now happens to not have one. It's like saying Catachans have been ignored since 2001.

Every servant of the Emperor is a subfaction of a subfaction etc pp if you want to go there.

Emperor >IoM > Ecclesiarchy > SoB

Emperor > IoM > Astartes > personal favorite flavor of astartes.

Plus they ignored the Tallarns, the Mordians, the Valhallans, Armageddon Steel legion, and many more.

So please, SM are next and Kroothawk just added Nid rumors.
BoT: SoB endangered by nids?

It's really quite simple. SoB are not SM. BT are SM.

 Manchu wrote:
You keep talking like BT is a faction when it's merely a subfaction that happened to get its own dex and now happens to not have one. It's like saying Catachans have been ignored since 2001.

Yes, it is a subfaction. Like I said, they are ultimately Marines and them being rolled in is probably a good thing. All I'm saying is that I sympathised with the BT fans. I can't help it! Dammit they love their religious nutters as much as SoB fans love theirs!

 Desteele wrote:
-Sisters of Battle are definitely in the works, but still some way off, according to Jerv

Brilliant news!

mfw

 Troike wrote:
All I'm saying is that I sympathised with the BT fans

Got no problem with that. I just think we need to check this idea that BT are facing the same issues as SoB because there are people ITT posting that GW is done with Sisters based on what's up with BT. It's a terrible argument and SoB fans should be very clear that the situations of SoB and BT are actually nothing alike.

 Manchu wrote:
Got no problem with that. I just think we need to check this idea that BT are facing the same issues as SoB because there are people ITT posting that GW is done with Sisters based on what's up with BT. It's a terrible argument and SoB fans should be very clear that the situations of SoB and BT are actually nothing alike.

Yes, I agree. And that's pretty much what I sad earlier. Templars are a subset of the Marines, so combining them with the vanilla codex works. The Sisters meanwhile are not a subset of anything, bar the Ecclesiarchy.