5951
Post by: Ravajaxe
Here comes the first batch of rumors for 6th edition Imperial Guard codex. Natfka (faeit212 blog author) has received these tidbits. They are supposedly from a playtest document.
september, 2nd
* Company Command is now the only, real HQ you can chose but you can swap the Commander for a Lord-Commissar.
* Primaris Psyker are now Advisors, Bodyguards are gone .
* Only Cadian named characters in this document.
* Salamander is in as transport for CCS/ PCS, open-topped Chimera with Autocannon, transports 6.
* Engineeers are Elite now (but 1-3 per slot), can buff squads in the vicinity (think Force Field and such).
* Priests must join a squad and won’t take HQ slots.
* Veterans, "get some lose some".
Size 5-10, can take 1 heavy wepaon or 1 special weapon per 5 soldiers.
Bastogne is gone but every Veteran Sarge can give orders now.
Can still take shotguns and get option to take pistol & CCW. New Veteran ability allows charging out of transport.
* Special Weapon and Heavy Weapon Squads are now 10 men each.
* Vendetta is gone, instead Valkyries can take the Vendettas-loadout for +45 points.
* Only one entry for Sentinels, no armor upgrade, closed cabin has no game effect but is just cosmetical.
* Thunderer/Destroyer is in.
Thunderer is a cheap Demolisher with nothing but a hull-mounted Demolisher cannon.
Destroyer is a dedicated tank hunter with a laser-lance weapon. Have a, hull-down“ rule that makes them extremely hard to kill if in cover, seem to be area-control units.
* There was talk about a new Cadian Veteran plastic set, 5 miniatures with all options.
* Heavy Weapon Squad will be repacked to include one sprue of standard Cadian infantry.
* Special Weapon Squads might get their own box with a new special weapon sprue (which is also used for Veteran box).
+ + + +
september, 20th
Larry Vela on Bell of Lost Souls :
These rumors come to us in multiple sets, and we have ordered them from most trustworthy to least based on a variety of "truthifying methods":
The Probable stuff:
IG Veterans/Stormtroopers (plastic 5-man box)
Hydra
Artillery combo-kit
Roughriders (new plastic box)
The Possible stuff:
IG Regiment Doctrines: Each Regiment (Cadian, Catachan, etc...)has doctrines, similar to SM Chapter tactics. Examples listed were:
Cadians - may issue 2 orders to a unit
Catachans - Move-thru-cover, and Jungle Fighter (???)
Thunderbolt flyer: Very heavy armor, but cannot jink.
The Salt-mine
Imperial Robots - 2 new robots, requiring an Admech handler/enginseer.
Knight Paladin - Taller than riptide, not as tall as Wraithknight. Vanquisher cannon and Uber-chainsword are standard load out. May upgrade to Punisher Cannon, Uber-Fist with Inferno Flamers
+ + + +
november , 1st
Posted by Larry Vela on Bell of Lost Souls :
* Codex Imperial Guard launches in March 2014
* Look for many refreshes in the codex rules.
* Expanded command system with the return of Doctrines
* The missing IG tanks will be released:
- Griffon/Collosus/Medusa artillery kit
* Stormtroopers released
* Veterans released
--> These two infantry kits include many, many optional bits to build command squads and even penal troops.
* New centerpiece kit is a Horus Heresy era tank.[/list]
+ + + +
(thanks to kroothawk)
Noel at Wargamer wrote :
-‘Mission Objectives’ are potentially a new special rule for the Imperial Guard, although my channels are a little dry on this front, one can only begin to imagine what they do. I heard on the grapevine, that this special rule would allow even sergeants, to order ‘minor orders’ to their own unit.
-Formerly Forge World dominated vehicles will take a tour in the Imperial Guard codex. This means we could see such units as the Forge World Destroyer Tank Hunter as part of the upcoming codex. Although one finds it extremely unlikely they will receive a new plastic kit.
-Headquarters units have seen a massive shake up. Above the whole organisation, some units have been deleted, others modified. You start by buying a command squad, this is then changed by swapping the officer for a commissar, if one wishes too. The three present advisors have been retained, with the addition of the Primaris Psyker as a command squad advisor.
-Ministorum Priests are back in the same manner as before, this time though it has been rumoured they increase the ranged output of the unit, as well combat potential. Maybe in the form of the ‘preferred enemy’ special rule, who knows?
-The mighty (or not so mighty Enginseer) has stayed relatively the same, except for the transition from HQ to either Elite or Heavy Support. But what excites me the most, are their roles on the field of battle. Apparently they will act much like Royal Courts in the Necron army, bought with certain upgrades, then attached out to other units, to confer certain benefits to that unit.
-In terms of repacking, it is believed that special weapon squads will receive their own box set. This is also rumoured to be extended to veteran squads and heavy weapon teams. Coming in boxes of five models, with a wide variety of special equipment.
-Moving on from the veteran weapon squads re-boxing, it is believed that they will be changing their position on the battlefield. With smaller squad sizes, veterans seem to be taking a fire support role, that focuses on battlefield specialisation.
-Vendetta and Valkyrie gunship’ will more than likely be streamlined into one unit. Also it is believed that the squadron option will be lost, and an increase in points to balance out the power of Vendetta and Valkyrie gunship’ in sixth edition.
+ + + +
november , 8
via StrykerSniper on Warseer :
I'm praying for stormtroopers, real ones, as a second troop choice. I did have a tiny look behind the iron curtain of GWs privacy policies, and I was able to see some mockups of the new veterans/stormtrooper boxed set, and it would be an amazing kit to build warbands or stormtrooper squads. Also I saw a model that appeared to be an Inquisitor, and was wearing a long cloak and armor.
I could see GW allowing stormtroopers as a troop choice to induce additional sales of the new kit, which, frankly, floored me. The details were great, with kasrkin style armor, and all sorts of weapons including hellguns, sniper rifles, special weapons, a cool missile launcher, a bunch of sergeant options, bolters, and lots of shotguns that managed to not look like scout shotguns. Also, the bolters did not look like marine shotuns, they were a little more human sized.
Some of the poses were also amazingly dynamic. Some were stoic standing poses, while a couple were very John Woo! There were also a lot of extra bits, poches, packs, grenades, knives, some scanner like equipment, and what appeared to be night vision goggles. If i were a puppy, I would've piddled on the rug, and it was a supreme act of will not to grab the models and run for the door. Apparently, they have also been ready for some time. Please dear God, let these see the light of my hobby store soon and I will have at least 5 boxes! This might even revitalize my Guard army.
Oh, and there were a bunch of heads! respirator heads, heads with berets, bald heads, heads with mohawks and crew cuts. Most were scarred, and one had an eyepatch, while another had a disfigured eye with what looked like claw marks, one head was smoking a stogie, and there were two heads with berets. There was even a knife that looked like a trench knife with raised knuckle dusters. There were scopes, a hand radio, and a bunch of bits for the bases including plants, a snake, and some ammo cans and satchel charges. There was even a hand holding an entrenching tool (shovel to you non-military types). There were a few holstered pistols, and as a delightful surprise, there were also autoguns in addition to lasguns, and there were bits for pistol and close combat weapon troops, although few were chainblades. There was a demo charge, melta bombs, and camo cloaks.
I was very, very impressed. The attention to detail was phenomenal. If you have any questions, ask them quick, before I am "sanctioned" by the inquisition. What is that sound outside the window.......?
55015
Post by: The Shadow
EARLY 2012?
Hasn't that sort of, y'know, passed?
I take it you mean 2013...
5951
Post by: Ravajaxe
oh  ! 2014 of course.
41245
Post by: tarnish
 The Shadow wrote:EARLY 2012?
Hasn't that sort of, y'know, passed?
I take it you mean 2013...
Hasn't that sort of, y'know, passed?
I take it you mean 2014...
Seems Guard are getting Tank Destroyers like the Germans, British and Russians had in WW2. Hull mounted cannons on a low chassis. If the design is retro enough i would be very interested 
23558
Post by: zedmeister
The Shadow wrote:EARLY 2012? Hasn't that sort of, y'know, passed? I take it you mean 2013...
Or should that be 2014? Seems like a lot plastic for one release. Salamanders, Siege Tanks, rumoured hydra/colossus kit, probably a plastic character, canadian veteran set, etc. Still, something IG players look forward to! More tanks are always good and I happen to like the Thunderer and Tank Destroyer
34243
Post by: Blacksails
I would like to know how this rumour stacks with other timeline rumours. Wasn't there already another army planned for early 2014?
41245
Post by: tarnish
 Blacksails wrote:I would like to know how this rumour stacks with other timeline rumours. Wasn't there already another army planned for early 2014?
Yes Orks, But really, 2 is very possible considering the current speed of releases.
34243
Post by: Blacksails
Yeah, I guess eh?
One could be super early 2014, and the other closer to March-ish.
Either way, more plastic tanks would be nice.
It'd be nice if some of the Steel Legions came true, just for some variety in the line.
Granted, I'm taking anything here with a healthy dose of salt.
69272
Post by: tommse
A kit for vets seems interesting... But I bet they´ll cost 30€ for the 5 dudes...
34243
Post by: Blacksails
tommse wrote:A kit for vets seems interesting... But I bet they´ll cost 30€ for the 5 dudes...
Good thing there are alternatives available that will soon be all high quality resin with a plethora of options so you can buy and build exactly what you like!
I'm certainly not holding my breath for the new infantry kits to be a bargain, though it'll be interesting to see what bits come with the kit.
52163
Post by: Shandara
You mean € 40 for 5 dudes?
8049
Post by: ArbitorIan
 tarnish wrote:Seems Guard are getting Tank Destroyers like the Germans, British and Russians had in WW2. Hull mounted cannons on a low chassis. If the design is retro enough i would be very interested
Well, they rarely change design on these things, and the Destroyer/Thunderer have been around for a while, so you can already find out if they're retro enough!!
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/DESTROYER-TANK-HUNTER-COMPLETE-KIT.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/THUNDERER-SIEGE-TANK-COMPLETE-KIT__.html
48253
Post by: rothrich
These seem like much more reasonable rumors than the ork rumors. Changes but not enough to completely ruin any army that you may already have. Vet squads you have now become special weapons squads. Increased durability for your heavy weapons teams. Foot guards may be viable again.
42013
Post by: Sinful Hero
Blacksails wrote:I would like to know how this rumour stacks with other timeline rumours. Wasn't there already another army planned for early 2014?
It goes back and forth between Tyranids, Orks, and Guard. A few rumors have suggested Tyranids in November now.
Getting rid of a separate entry for the vendetta seems odd. Of course these are from faeit212 so a heaping helping o salt is needed. The mention of "play test rules" always trips my trigger. Seems like a cheap safeguard to hide bhind if they turn out false.
123
Post by: Alpharius
Natfka/faeit212 again?
What's his "percentage correct" again?
I suppose it is marginally better than nothing, but...
Ah, who cares?
Let's GET INTO IT!
77217
Post by: xruslanx
What's the point of that command vehicle? Why would you stick your HQ in a vehicle that's weaker than the one carrying your grunts?
Also we all knew vets were going to lose at least one special weapon. Really interested to know what will happen to blobs though.
57815
Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
*5 dudes and enough weapons and bits to equip another 10.
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
Anyone else find it funny vets will supposedly have the ability to assault from vehicles?
Also, I'm going to get in trouble for this, but I actually like the sound of these rumors. Several units I've always wanted to try from FW, unit changes that needed it (vets no longer being glorified special weapon squads, actual SWS and HWS's becoming more useful thanks to extra men, Vendetta price increase, etc.) and vet sarges able to give orders sounds awesome. All of this makes me suspect this is wishlisting 
If there are only Cadian heroes, that strongly suggests Steel Legion or Catachan supplement. I guess we'll find out soon enough
57815
Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
Vendettas better be at least 180pts now or every non-IG player is gonna raise hell.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Vendettas can go to somewhere warm and fiery.
Vultures need to be in the Codex. Get rid of Robin Cruddace's stupid "Herp Derp Gunship Gunship!" nonsense and add a dedicated gunship with no transport capacity.
34243
Post by: Blacksails
Well, if the Valk points cost stays the same (hopefully it won't), a 45pts increase to become a vendetta still leaves it rather broken.
Then again, if the Valk gets bumped up to...oh, I'd wager 130-ish, than a 175pts vendetta is still strong, but not broken stupid.
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
xruslanx wrote:What's the point of that command vehicle? Why would you stick your HQ in a vehicle that's weaker than the one carrying your grunts?
Also we all knew vets were going to lose at least one special weapon. Really interested to know what will happen to blobs though.
If I recall the FW version gets several special rules, not to mention it gets you another heavy weapon, which IG players love.
63623
Post by: Tannhauser42
I thought it had been stated before that GW wasn't going to steal anymore FW models for their codex releases? So giving the IG a Salamander, Destroyer, and Thunderer seems to be breaking that rule.
Of course, what else could they do for an IG release? A new troop box (Valhallans, Mordians, Tallarn, etc.), definitely, An update to the Valk kit to allow for Vendettas, surely. But a new IG release will need something big and shiny for GW to shine the spotlight on
9598
Post by: Quintinus
These rumors both excite and scare me because on one hand I love the fact that priests aren't going to be a true HQ choice which means that assault guard is going to be better but on the other hand I really don't like the idea of the Primaris Psyker not being able to join a squad. The rest of it sounds plausible but I bet Vetock will screw us over since he's supposedly the one authoring this codex.
49827
Post by: MajorWesJanson
45 point upgrade to valkyrie and drop it to AV11 and it is much much more fair. Valk/Vendetta were not meant to be AV12 fliers. They were AV11 fliers, or AV12 skimmers (extra armor that dropped their speed), and never fixed.
My thoughts on the rumors:
Company Command is now the only, real“ HQ you can chose but you can swap the Commander for a Lord-Commissar.
Primaris Psyker are now Advisors, Bodyguards are gone.
Don't see them removing HQ choices. And bodyguards work extremely well both fluff and mechanically with look out sir. They could even expand them to allow bodyguards to accept but not issue challenges.
Only Cadian named characters in this document.
There are only 4 Cadian Characters- Creed, Kell, Pask, and Bastonne. They aren't going to remove a majority of special characters from the book- Alrahem, Chenkov, Marbo, Harker, Straken, Mork
Salamander is in as transport for CCS/PCS, open-topped Chimera with Autocannon, transports 6.
On one hand " GW is not going to poach FW units!" On the other, IIRC, Salamanders are older than FW, they would fit the role as a fast command squad transport, and unless they drastically redesign the Hydra, the Salamander is the best option to make a combi-kit with the Griffon. And if they keep the Salamander as a fast vehicle, that makes it more distinct from the chimaera. And the autocannon is nice.
Engineeers are Elite now (but 1-3 per slot), can buff squads in the vicinity (think Force Field and such).
Priests must join a squad and won’t take HQ slots.
These I can see. Techpriest getting some cool wargear would mean they actually get fielded. Priests being a squad attachment like commissars would be simple mechanically.
Veterans, get some lose some“. Size 5-10, can take 1 heavy wepaon or 1 special weapon per 5 soldiers. Bastogne is gone but every Veteran Sarge can give orders now. Can still take shotguns and get option to take pistol & CCW. New Veteran ability allows charging out of transport.
I can see most of this happening. Don't see Bastonne going away, especially if the codex is Cadian characters only. Assault out of transport seems possible, but Eldar players would cry, and it would probably make more sense for Stormtroopers.
Special Weapon and Heavy Weapon Squads are now 10 men each.
If Vet squads are going to 5-10 with 1 weapon per five, I could see special weapons also being 5-10 with 2 special weapons per 5. Heavy weapons though, I don't see going from 6 models/3 guns to 10 men. No way to do it cleanly kit wise, as adding a troop sprue would give you 11 men, and the three pack box would make it more likely that heavy weapon squads go to 3-6 heavy weapons with crew.
Vendetta is gone, instead Valkyries can take the Vendettas-loadout for +45 points.
Makes sense rules-wise. And drop the armor to 11/11/10, and it is far more balanced.
Only one entry for Sentinels, no armor upgrade, closed cabin has no game effect but is just cosmetical.
Possible. Cadian and Armageddon pattern were just cosmetic before.
Thunderer/Destroyer is in, Thunderer is a cheap Demolisher with nothing but a hull-mounted Demolisher cannon. Destroyer is a dedicated tank hunter with a laser-lance weapon. Have a, hull-down“ rule that makes them extremely hard to kill if in cover, seem to be area-control units.
Don't see it happening. GW already needs to make 2-3 plastic tank kits just to cover units already in the codex (Hydra, Griffon, Colossus, Medusa, probably as Hydra/new AA tank, Griffon/Salamander, Basilisk/Medusa/Colossus) before they start adding more tanks. And Thunderer would compete with the Demolisher, being basically an IG version of the Vindicator, and the Destroyer, while cool, would compete with the already little used Vanquisher.
There was talk about a new Cadian Veteran plastic set, 5 miniatures with all options.
I can see it, but being guard, more likely 10 models with options for $40
Heavy Weapon Squad will be repacked to include one sprue of standard Cadian infantry.
So an 11 models box?
Special Weapon Squads might get their own box with a new special weapon sprue (which is also used for Veteran box).
GW tends to do infantry as single larger unique sprues now, rather that duplicates of the same smaller sprue- see the new Tac Squad for one. And Special weapon squads would be a waste of a box when all it would take is for a player to buy a infantry squad and a vet squad and borrow weapons from the vet squad- more sales for less different kits.
63909
Post by: Kaiserbudheim
YU NO TAKE MY STRAKEN, HARKER AND MARBO AWAY!!!
22133
Post by: Spartan089
You'll get them in some overpriced GW supplement
11
Post by: ph34r
Oh great we can finally take that transport AC upgrade FW has had for years that would have been good 4 years ago when autocannons mattered. And all we need in return is to give up closed top? And half the transport capacity?
The CCS change seems fine. Nobody used bodyguards.
Salamander is a pretty useless unit to add.
Enginseers actually sound pretty awesome.
I'm actually ok with the veterans losing 1 special if they gain 1 heavy AND as long as special weapons squads can in fact take 3 weapons. That minor loss to the veterans is worth it if HWS and SWS are fixed from being ridiculously fragile. Vet sgt giving orders might even make 2 specials with orders on par as 3 specials without.
175 points for vendettas seem a bit too in line with internet wishlisting, but I could believe it.
Thunderer/Destroyer sounds kinda cool but super redundant, like there is no reason the army list needs both those and the LR Demolisher and LR Vanquisher.
Kind of a disappointing release overall if these rumors are true. Salamander + Thunderer + veterans, and that's it? I would hope there would also be plastic Steel Legion, it's about time.
51769
Post by: Snrub
Because Straken and Marbo have been around for ages and Harker choked out a Ravener. So he can stay.
If only Cadian characters are mentioned in this book then that probably means we'll see "Supplement: Catachan"
I like the sound of the vet squad kit but i don't like the sound of it being a 5 man kit.
76882
Post by: GuardRalph
Sounds good. I'll be watching these forums for more updates! I'll see how it all shakes out as the deadline closes.
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
The thunderer and destroyer might have a good purpose, in that they would lack lumbering behemoth and sponsons/turret. They're essentially poor man's russes
49827
Post by: MajorWesJanson
 ph34r wrote:Oh great we can finally take that transport AC upgrade FW has had for years that would have been good 4 years ago when autocannons mattered. And all we need in return is to give up closed top? And half the transport capacity?
The CCS change seems fine. Nobody used bodyguards.
175 points for vendettas seem a bit too in line with internet wishlisting, but I could believe it.
A fast vehicle with an autocannon that could transport command units around does have it's uses.
Why remove bodyguards? They became even more fluffy/useful with the addition of look out sir.
175 is if you add 45 to the current vendetta cost. It sounds like you pay for a valkyrie, and then pay 45 to upgrade it to a vendetta,
8778
Post by: HisDivineShadow
The basic Russ is already dirt cheap IMO. Do we need cheaper?
But honestly, Guard already have several tanks in need of plastic. And GWs new 'no unit left without a model' policy I think greatly lessens the chances for new units.
48508
Post by: Gomericus
I wonder what the 10 man heavy weapons squads will mean and what will happen to the basic platoon,,,hope they do not nerf foot builds
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Gomericus wrote:I wonder what the 10 man heavy weapons squads will mean and what will happen to the basic platoon,,,hope they do not nerf foot builds
5 heavy weapon teams?
74527
Post by: Drakka77
They better not take harker or my bodyguards that's the core of my IG.
15115
Post by: Brother SRM
I don't see them cannibalizing Forgeworld models with the Thunderer and Destroyer. While it would be easy to do given the reuse of the Leman Russ chassis sprue, GW doesn't really make Forgeworld models plastic anymore. Also, 10 man heavy weapon squads sound strange, and reusing the same sprue in two different infantry kits (veterans and special weapons squads) is pretty much unheard of, unless those two were a combo kit.
64816
Post by: washout77
Gomericus wrote:I wonder what the 10 man heavy weapons squads will mean and what will happen to the basic platoon,,,hope they do not nerf foot builds
I don't see them nerfing Foot builds even more than they already have been. If anything, they might try to make foot builds more viable now alongside some new Infantry kit releases to sell some models and make more money. That's of course the business side rather than the gaming side.
5 Weapon HWS's, better SWS's, and hopefully something to help the durability of blobs (the Engineer's ability?) could definitely make foot builds look more viable. Can't do it without Chekov though 
28269
Post by: Red Corsair
This whole thing sounds very false to me. Basically all wish-listing and guessing is my take. Looking forward to an update but really they just need to re-due to basilisk kit and fix the infantry. I can't see enginseers going to elite , so far every book has been moving techpriest/techmarine type roles to not take up slots. They go to elites and it just adds more congestion to an already backed up FOC.
47181
Post by: Yodhrin
 Alpharius wrote:Natfka/faeit212 again?
What's his "percentage correct" again?
I suppose it is marginally better than nothing, but...
Ah, who cares?
Let's GET INTO IT!
Do we have to? He somehow manages to be less accurate than random chance, and this sounds just as daft as the rest.
Lets see...
The Thunderer/Destroyer is a FW kit(same for Salamander), and I thought the rumour from more reliable sources was that GW were done porting FW kits into plastic? Not only that, the Command Salamander has a heavy flamer, not an autocannon, that's the Scout Salamander.
Cutting down the Codex to a single HQ choice, removing options from that choice, and gutting all the non-Cadian special characters? Those all sound like the exact opposite of the trends GW has been following with the 6thEd codices.
And what happened to Faeit's rumours from what, oh, a week ago about Steel Legion this and that? Now it's Cadians-and-nobody-else?
Moving Enginseers to Elites(despite doing the exact opposite with their closest analogue in both C A and C: SM), while leaving Priests as they are? Makes no sense.
Either this is an extremely early "what would happen if we...."-style playtest document, I'm calling shenanigans. And in the infinitesimally small chance this is correct, this may be the worst Guard 'dex in a long time.
55015
Post by: The Shadow
Ah, 2014. That's better 
Most of what I've seen of the rumours looks good though, I'll look forward to seeing how they turn out.
22190
Post by: Theduke07
Vets sounding like junk if they can only take 2 SW. They trying to make Special Weapon Teams worth taking?
41245
Post by: tarnish
Alpharius wrote:Natfka/faeit212 again?
What's his "percentage correct" again?
I suppose it is marginally better than nothing, but...
Ah, who cares?
Let's GET INTO IT!
Tracking this guy would be pointless since anyone can send him a mail and get their rumors up on the site. He is not the source of any of them, just the messenger.
19636
Post by: Alkasyn
 Ravajaxe wrote:Here comes the first batch of rumors for 6th edition Imperial Guard codex. Natfka (faeit212 blog author) has received these tidbits. They are supposedly from a playtest document.
september, 2nd
* Veterans, "get some lose some".
Size 5-10, can take 1 heavy wepaon or 1 special weapon per 5 soldiers.
Bastogne is gone but every Veteran Sarge can give orders now.
Can still take shotguns and get option to take pistol & CCW. New Veteran ability allows charging out of transport.
This makes the rumour bust for me. Marines can't do that but the Guard will? I call BS.
5269
Post by: lord_blackfang
Ravajaxe wrote:
* Special Weapon Squads might get their own box with a new special weapon sprue (which is also used for Veteran box).
This makes it totally obvious that the entire thing is a filthy lie. New kits don't share sprues. Also, why would information about new model packaging be included in what was allegedly a playtest document? Playtesters don't need to know that.
36276
Post by: Zweischneid
 Yodhrin wrote:
Do we have to? He somehow manages to be less accurate than random chance, and this sounds just as daft as the rest.
Does he? How accurate would random chance be in your opinion? Roughly?
If I make-up the rumour that .. say ... Games Workshop will release Bretonnians in March 2014 with, let's say, a Sorceress on a Flying Pegasus and plastic Questing Knights, what % would you put to the chance that I am correct with this "rumor" purely on random chance?
47181
Post by: Yodhrin
 Zweischneid wrote: Yodhrin wrote:
Do we have to? He somehow manages to be less accurate than random chance, and this sounds just as daft as the rest.
Does he? How accurate would random chance be in your opinion? Roughly?
If I make-up the rumour that .. say ... Games Workshop will release Bretonnians in March 2014 with, let's say, a Sorceress on a Flying Pegasus and plastic Questing Knights, what % would you put to the chance that I am correct with this "rumor" purely on random chance?
It has nothing to do with opinions. In the long run, even someone guessing should come out around half&half(it's not exact since, although you can judge an individual rumour on a true/false basis, there are other factors at play, but it essentially holds true), Faeit, going by the rumour tracker, is sitting at around 40/55 true/false, plus a wee blob that are too vague/nonspecific to make a judgement on.
That's not even accounting for the fact that the site has published rumours that directly contradict rumours they posted just days earlier on several occasions.
They're a joke, they aggregate rumours from reliable sources with random nonsense people claim in their comment threads or send to them by email, and nothing they say should ever be taken seriously unless it's corroborated.
5269
Post by: lord_blackfang
I see this "guessing = 50% odds" garbage on Dakka all the time and I have no clue where you people are getting that idea. Someone watched a documentary on ESP testing and didn't quite understand the methodology but figured it sounded neat, so might as well apply it to everything ever?
36276
Post by: Zweischneid
Yodhrin wrote:
It has nothing to do with opinions. In the long run, even someone guessing should come out around half&half(it's not exact since, although you can judge an individual rumour on a true/false basis, there are other factors at play, but it essentially holds true),
Why on earth should guessing - in the long run - come out half-and-half?
It's like saying that trying to guess the correct numbers for the lottery should have me winning the jackpot 50% of the time, in the long run. And it doesn't. If I were to win every second jackpot in the lottery, hell, if I were to only win every 1000th jackpot in the lottery, it would be a good sign of me having some advantage that others don't.
As you said, there are other factors at play and the chances of a "rumour" being spot-on by pure chance alone cannot possibly be 50%. It can not possibly be even 0.005%.
A rumour-monger being spot-on 1% of the time, or even 0.1% of the time, is still doing better than "random chance". Said 1% rumour-monger arguably wouldn't be a very good rumour-monger relative to other rumour-mongers, but he (or she) would still be far better than pure chance.
18567
Post by: CadianXV
 Kanluwen wrote:Vendettas can go to somewhere warm and fiery.
Vultures need to be in the Codex. Get rid of Robin Cruddace's stupid "Herp Derp Gunship Gunship!" nonsense and add a dedicated gunship with no transport capacity.
100% this- allows some variety in Drop Troop armies, and presents an interesting selection challenge. Another Valk, or supporting gunship?
Also, give Stormtroopers the rules from their Apocalypse datasheet.
Storm the Objective:
In any turn in which the Storm Troopers disembark from their Valkyrie transports, they may shoot, run, then shoot again. This second round of shooting may be at a different target if you wish. In addition, cover saves taken against hits caused from these shooting attacks suffer a -1 penalty, representing the defenders being caught by surprise.
Note that this rule only applies to the Storm Troopers, not the Valkyie transports.
It would make them far more effective, and keep it fluffy.
23855
Post by: LazzurusMan
Am I the only one that feels guard needs no big update? Maybe a points change here and there, but nothing as big as adding MORE tanks that do what the tanks we have already do.
Although I do admit that something dedicated to killing MC would be nice, no amount of times my lists have been trumped by a
n angry dreadknight or wraithknight.
5269
Post by: lord_blackfang
Grav turret Russ, calling it now.
60990
Post by: Polecat
If Vendetta goes up in price, then it should be a dedicated transport to compensate.
23855
Post by: LazzurusMan
IF this happened...would attaching a small HL gravity gun on an old russ turret count??
77217
Post by: xruslanx
how can you say that guard don't need an update? That's another way of saying that you're happy to spam vendettas and mechvets, as foot guard do not work at all, and leman russes need a special rule to actually allow them to fire their sponsons.
Stormies also need some love so they can be used as something other than suicide melta.
23855
Post by: LazzurusMan
I play foot guard and russ spam. I win 75% of my games. I'm pretty sure a russ can fire everything ads it's classified as a heavy, and foot guard work wonders if you have enough of them to cover half the board.
77217
Post by: xruslanx
then your opponents have weak armies. Foot guard are laughable easy to kill, through shooting and assault.
A russ that fires an ordinance weapon can only snap shoot the other weapons, have you been ignoring that rule? The non ordinance russes do rock, but the vanilla and demolisher took a big hit with this in 6th.
23855
Post by: LazzurusMan
Everyone I play against has too it seems, thanks, I'll have to bare that in mind. And while they are laughably easy to kill, it's not so easy to kill 100+ guardsmen at 1.5k points when you're up against a more elite styled army.
69756
Post by: Tower75
Hmmm... In-tah-roosting, if true.
However, that means that I cannot run a Veteran squad with three plasmaguns anymore. Bugger.
Some new Kasrkins would be nice.
23855
Post by: LazzurusMan
Ah, and on the subject of stormies, MAKE EM WORTH TAKING. That is all..
27727
Post by: Bonde
I don't even remotely believe any of these rumous, it might aswell just be random guessing.
I do however think a catachan supplement is almost certain, since they have their own range of plastic models and a host of special characters just waiting to get more official fluff and perhaps some army wide special rules.
752
Post by: Polonius
Storm Troopers have always been mediocre.
Ok, that's actually not true. They were good in the BBB list in early 3rd edition, when they were basically hardended veterans. So BS4, 5+ save, and cheap.
The 3rd edition codex split Stormies from hardened vets, and made both overcosted for what you got (but storms got deep strike and infiltrate, albiet at 12pts a model.) The 3.5 codex made them more flexible, as you could buy them as troops for 10pts, but they didn't have deepstrike or inflitrate. Still, ~90pts got you six 4+ save, BS4 dudes with two plasma guns and a plasma pistol. You could also take them as elites, with the ability to buy deepstrike or inflitrate for +1 pt. So, five stormies with two meltas could deepstrike for 75 pts. Of course, at that time, you could buy five veterans with three meltas that could deep strike as elites, meaning you traded a melta gun for a 4+ save. I'll let you guess which people took.
The current book actually as better stormtrooper rules then most, although part of that has to do with the dearth of deep striking options.
It's a shame because the sort of consensus fix for stormtroopers has always been to make hellguns S4, Ap-. Personally, I'd make them able to take two specials at five men, and four at ten, to make them far more potent then other units.
23855
Post by: LazzurusMan
And that's the problem, they're best used deepstriking, and even then they're not great. I always thought of stormies as the elite of the imperial guard, the guys that have survived countless wars due to their abilities. Instead they're widely used as, and shown as suicide melta squads.
21966
Post by: col. krazy kenny
How much are they not going to release?
7375
Post by: BrookM
Giving the odd character a boost in initiative or the ability to buy a Medallion Crimson would be grand.
70345
Post by: Cortland_Greyhawk
Sounds like you won't have to buy the Twin-Linked Las-cannon upgrades from Forgeworld to make the Vendeta, instead GW will be shipping Valkyries with the parts to do the upgrade.
I hope the Veteran Cadian squad is the Kasrkin squad released in plastic with more options on how you can build them.
28269
Post by: Red Corsair
Imagine if valks go to AV11 and become dedicated troop carriers and vultures got to FA.... Imagine the fit over the web....won't happen but it's a hilarious thought.
45838
Post by: TechMarine1
Charging out of a chimera!?!?
752
Post by: Polonius
 Red Corsair wrote:Imagine if valks go to AV11 and become dedicated troop carriers and vultures got to FA.... Imagine the fit over the web....won't happen but it's a hilarious thought.
As dumb as it sounds, Valks make a lot of sense as Dedicated transports, at least for stormtroopers, and also for vets/ CCS. Are Valks really OP now though? I know they pale in comparison to the Vendetta (what doesn't?), but for the laughably low offensive output, are they really undercosted? Personally, if they made Valks dedicated transports, AV11, and ~115pts with rocket pods, that's a pretty cool flier!
73480
Post by: ultimentra
I kinda liked the plastic steel legion thread more than this one even though none of it was true. This is sounding more and more like a nerf of any IG units that were previously worth a damn, and no improvements to ones that are useless if this is really the only changes.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
If we're wishlisting... I want to see them redo Ogryns again. They're insanely costed at the moment, with pitiful Leadership and no options. Though really, they haven't been playable since the crazy days of 2nd edition, so they might as well drop them from the army altogether, since it doesn't seem like they have the ability to get them right.
15115
Post by: Brother SRM
Polecat wrote:If Vendetta goes up in price, then it should be a dedicated transport to compensate.
Vendettas are the best flyer in the game. They don't need to be even more numerous, when you can already take 9 in a list.
9675
Post by: Looky Likey
xruslanx wrote:What's the point of that command vehicle? Why would you stick your HQ in a vehicle that's weaker than the one carrying your grunts?
Also we all knew vets were going to lose at least one special weapon. Really interested to know what will happen to blobs though.
If its open topped so you can assault out of it, that combined with a command squad being reasonable (for guard) at assault if equipped right gives it a possible use. If they give it scout as well then it becomes even better.
Interesting set of rumors, can't see past all the release slots for plastic being filled with the missing kits, so if we get anything new at all it will be new variants of the missing kits added onto the missing kit.
20983
Post by: Ratius
Mordian Iron Guard supplement please.
69729
Post by: Insane Smile
Tbh, I hope little to none of this is true, cause it doesn't seem like a good thing. Just my thoughts.
9598
Post by: Quintinus
 Agamemnon2 wrote:If we're wishlisting... I want to see them redo Ogryns again. They're insanely costed at the moment, with pitiful Leadership and no options. Though really, they haven't been playable since the crazy days of 2nd edition, so they might as well drop them from the army altogether, since it doesn't seem like they have the ability to get them right.
What Ogryns need is a points drop and the option to take a Commissar. Statwise Ogryns are fine but making them around 32 points per model would be incredibly useful. However what they need most is a Commissar.
I'm curious what will happen to the penal Legionnaires. There's no official models for them after all. Same with Sgt bastonne unless they make a model for him.
Personally I'm hoping that Imperial Guardsmen platoons stay the same price and have the same options, but have the opportunity for different army tactics like the Imperial Marines.
So Cadians could have the Sharpshooter Doctrine for rerolling 1's with lasguns. Catachans would have Stealth: Forests/Jungle. Things like that. Giving normal Guard squads the option for Send in the Next wave would be beautiful.
really I just hope they don't screw with the platoon structure too much and they better not removed combined squads.
37755
Post by: Harriticus
I foresee an Imperial Guard battleforce of x10 Cadians and a Valkyrie. $175!!!
21358
Post by: Dysartes
Agamemnon2 wrote:If we're wishlisting... I want to see them redo Ogryns again. They're insanely costed at the moment, with pitiful Leadership and no options. Though really, they haven't been playable since the crazy days of 2nd edition, so they might as well drop them from the army altogether, since it doesn't seem like they have the ability to get them right.
Out of interest, Aga, what would they need to be "right"?
31886
Post by: dkellyj
Kanluwen wrote:Gomericus wrote:I wonder what the 10 man heavy weapons squads will mean and what will happen to the basic platoon,,,hope they do not nerf foot builds
5 heavy weapon teams?
Probably more like 3 HWs each with 3 models/wounds and a Sgt...meaning S6 still insta-kills a base but you can always pop the Sgt for an ablative wound. Automatically Appended Next Post: [quote=Although I do admit that something dedicated to killing MC would be nice, no amount of times my lists have been trumped by a
n angry dreadknight or wraithknight.
Demolitions. Yes, its 30 points and can make your vet Squads as expensive as Space Marines...but when you assault (or get assault by) Big bad MCs (or happen upon that Land Raider that was ignoring your puny S3 swat) you stick 10 melta bombs on his butt and watch the expression on your opponents face change real fast.
And if you come across some pesky MEQ all bunched up you can toss a Demo charge in their midst and watch your opponent pick up that 300 point SternGuard squad (unless it back-scatters onto you...which mine ALWAYS do...then you get to pick up your toys).
34243
Post by: Blacksails
While there are few things in this world that would please me more, I won't get my hopes up.
72490
Post by: gossipmeng
The salamander will be a nice addition. I'm also looking forward to seeing the pt costs on the thunderer/destroyer tanks.
The changes to veterans will hopefully add more flavour to lists by reducing melta/plasma spam.
77159
Post by: Paradigm
To be honest, the IG codex is pretty solid as a whole, barring some of the more stupid units (Vendettas, but this is mosty due to a quirk of changing editions). All it really needs are:
- cost increase/AV drops for fliers
- something to make penal legion worth taking.
- boosts to enginseers to make them at all useful.
Other than that, I would rather they don't change too much. The platoon and orders mechanics are really unique, fluffy and useful, and I really hope they don't alter those much. Things I would like to see, if wishlisting:
- doctrines available to infantry, not just vets, obviously costed appropriately.
- Defensive order (probably a buff to overwatch)
- Possibly allow commissars access to limited orders, with appropriate points increases.
- Drop in cost for Stormtroopers, ogryn, RR and ratlings (not really needed, but might make lists more varied.
31886
Post by: dkellyj
Well, as long as we are wishlisting...Pask should give Skyfire to his tank...along with all the other cool stuff (+1BS, +1S if not moving).
OR...Pask should be bumped up to an HQ slot and he makes heavy units Troops/Scoring. That would allow GW to bring back that 9 Tank super-kit again.
Vendettas should cost about 40-50 points more with no changes.
Ogryns. New assault rules hurt these guys (can no longer charge out of a vehicle the turn they get out and can not assault from Outflank (given by Creed). They stand around a turn and get shot to pieces then fall back (they also need a Comissar upgrade).
A rule that lets them assault the turn they jump out of a stationary chimera would bring their effectiveness up.
Hello...models? You already have the excellent WFB Ogre kit as a baseline.
SWS. Yeah, we get to deepstrike. And promptly die since interceptor is one of the new hotness rules that everyone is getting (except Marines...WTF). Perhaps allow them to take a non-upgradable Valk as a DT and only 1 dice on the scatter for Grav Chute (since they are elites) would be a better fit.
Ace pilot upgrades for your Flyers. +1BS and +1 Jink for 25-40 pts.
I can see the IG codex containing bare-bones SCs (like the C:SM) but would like to see supplements for Catachans, Steel legion, and even a Rough-Rider all scoring army.
An IG big walker...the infamous and long wished for Knight Titan.
10127
Post by: Happygrunt
I don't like the sound of this. Cutting the HQ choices down to one choice is dumb and removes flavor from the army. Removing all non-cadians is even worse, as then we get Codex: Cadians and not Codex: Imperial Guard
Giving the salamander as a dedicated transport for command units makes no sense, especially sense there already is a command version of the salamander. Why give Command squads access to the scout tank but not the command and control tank?
Vendettas going up 15 points changes almost nothing. They should be 175, any less is undercoated.
We are not getting the thunderer/destroyer. Neither are we getting the salamander. Both are FW kits and both already have their roles filled by other things in the IG book.
The only thing that makes some sense in this list is the veterans change. Dropping a special weapon puts them in line with FWs rules for veterans and helps to balance out the special weapons spam. Even better if veteran sergeants can all give orders. Might make up for the loss of a gun.
HWS wont be 10 men. Don't get your hopes up.
Every kit listed besides the cadian veterans probably wont happen. There simply isn't a reason to make new kits when some of the core IG units don't even have kits. (Hydras and ordnance batteries, I am looking at you) Not to mention kits that are super old (ogrns) or hard to find (storm troopers).
These rumors get a whole mines worth of salt.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
We've actually already seen what likely will become the "Cadian Veterans" kit--and it was a Stormtrooper kit.
The Ogryns in existence now are not that old.
10127
Post by: Happygrunt
Kanluwen wrote:We've actually already seen what likely will become the "Cadian Veterans" kit--and it was a Stormtrooper kit.
The Ogryns in existence now are not that old.
Aren't they as old as the old wraith guard were? Those got a 5 man plastic box, so why not Ogryn?
752
Post by: Polonius
 Happygrunt wrote: Kanluwen wrote:We've actually already seen what likely will become the "Cadian Veterans" kit--and it was a Stormtrooper kit. The Ogryns in existence now are not that old.
Aren't they as old as the old wraith guard were? Those got a 5 man plastic box, so why not Ogryn?
Ogryn have had four complete sets of metals. RT era, 2nd edition, 3rd edition, and late 4th edition. they are still in metal, which makes a jump to plastic slightly more likely, although they would almost certainly get a broader range of options. the metal Wraithguard date from early 2nd edition, and were ancient (if venerable) sculpts. Automatically Appended Next Post: Now, models that really are ancient include the very tired Attilan Rough Riders, which might be some of the last GW models to be a metal trooper on the medieval plastic horse.
The line is complicated because there are three plastic kits that are, more or less, superfulous from a "kits for everything with rules" standpoint: the catachan kits. That's a heavy weapon sprue, a troop sprue, and a command sprue that's nothing but a cosmetic change from the far more popular (and superior for the basic troops) cadians.
While a handful of catachan diehards enjoy plastic kits, the rest of IG players are deprived things like plastic veterans/stormtroopers, plastic rough riders, or a hydra kit.
49644
Post by: MrFlutterPie
I want to see the abhumans get some love. I love the these guys.
Ogryns have sucked for every edition now it seems expect for 2ed. I love these guys but for heavens sake they have to make them worth taking.
Ratlings need the shrouded special rule to balance out T2 and some sort of way of keeping them running off the table like little (literally ) pansies.
752
Post by: Polonius
Ratlings suffer from being snipers, and not troops. The only good snipers in the game are also objective campers. They could cost 8pts a piece, and they'd still be overlooked, simply because the damage output is so painfully low for an elites unit. further, SWS can also operate as snipers, and are troops, making the Ratlings increasingly redundent. However, if I had to make a recommendation, I'd go Stealth and BS4 as now, and keep a relatively low LD. But... I'd give them a rule that if they fail a leadership test, they "hide." Basically put down a marker, remove them from the board, and then roll a morale check in the next reserve phase. If they pass, put them withing 6" of the marker, able to shoot to full effect. That makes them tough to root out with casual shooting, and allows them to really hassle the enemy.
Ogryn aren't nearly as tough to fix, as all they really need is a points drop and/or extra attack. GW is frankly wasting an opprotunit to sell us 10 man units of $22 models.
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
Happygrunt wrote:I don't like the sound of this. Cutting the HQ choices down to one choice is dumb and removes flavor from the army. Removing all non-cadians is even worse, as then we get Codex: Cadians and not Codex: Imperial Guard
Giving the salamander as a dedicated transport for command units makes no sense, especially sense there already is a command version of the salamander. Why give Command squads access to the scout tank but not the command and control tank?
Vendettas going up 15 points changes almost nothing. They should be 175, any less is undercoated.
We are not getting the thunderer/destroyer. Neither are we getting the salamander. Both are FW kits and both already have their roles filled by other things in the IG book.
The only thing that makes some sense in this list is the veterans change. Dropping a special weapon puts them in line with FWs rules for veterans and helps to balance out the special weapons spam. Even better if veteran sergeants can all give orders. Might make up for the loss of a gun.
HWS wont be 10 men. Don't get your hopes up.
Every kit listed besides the cadian veterans probably wont happen. There simply isn't a reason to make new kits when some of the core IG units don't even have kits. (Hydras and ordnance batteries, I am looking at you) Not to mention kits that are super old (ogrns) or hard to find (storm troopers).
These rumors get a whole mines worth of salt.
I wouldn't put it past GW to drop some of the units that don't have kits to save themselves effort. Especially for ones that are available in forgeworld, like the griffon or the colossus.
That would be REALLY unlikely though (I hope)
539
Post by: cygnnus
Blacksails wrote:
While there are few things in this world that would please me more, I won't get my hopes up.
Why not? For a couple of pages of rules, a couple of scenarios, some pictures and some coder time, you have a $39.99 supplement. More or less free money for GW. I'd frankly be surprised if they *dont* do something like that.
Valete,
JohnS
7375
Post by: BrookM
No appropriate minis, no supplement.
10127
Post by: Happygrunt
 MrMoustaffa wrote: Happygrunt wrote:I don't like the sound of this. Cutting the HQ choices down to one choice is dumb and removes flavor from the army. Removing all non-cadians is even worse, as then we get Codex: Cadians and not Codex: Imperial Guard
Giving the salamander as a dedicated transport for command units makes no sense, especially sense there already is a command version of the salamander. Why give Command squads access to the scout tank but not the command and control tank?
Vendettas going up 15 points changes almost nothing. They should be 175, any less is undercoated.
We are not getting the thunderer/destroyer. Neither are we getting the salamander. Both are FW kits and both already have their roles filled by other things in the IG book.
The only thing that makes some sense in this list is the veterans change. Dropping a special weapon puts them in line with FWs rules for veterans and helps to balance out the special weapons spam. Even better if veteran sergeants can all give orders. Might make up for the loss of a gun.
HWS wont be 10 men. Don't get your hopes up.
Every kit listed besides the cadian veterans probably wont happen. There simply isn't a reason to make new kits when some of the core IG units don't even have kits. (Hydras and ordnance batteries, I am looking at you) Not to mention kits that are super old (ogrns) or hard to find (storm troopers).
These rumors get a whole mines worth of salt.
I wouldn't put it past GW to drop some of the units that don't have kits to save themselves effort. Especially for ones that are available in forgeworld, like the griffon or the colossus.
That would be REALLY unlikely though (I hope)
I really doubt that. Yes, they are FW, but GW has not dropped any units in a 6th ed book ( BT being folded to C: SM notwithstanding).
Dropping three to four units just so they don't have to make kits is stupid and nonsensical. I wouldn't think GW was even that stupid.
199
Post by: Crimson Devil
Actually it makes prefect sense. First we know GW will not release rules without models any more.
Second several of the niche units (Ratlings, Ogryns, RR) are still available in metal, not finecast.
Third the new codex will have at least 5 new items. These units will be given rules to sell them. Niche units don't sell well, thus no new kits.
So I would bet New Storm Troopers and maybe one niche unit, a new flyer, and two tank kits. The rest go away.
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
In an interesting addition to that, it would only take a single sprue's worth of parts in the leman Russ kit to allow thunderers and destroyers. You're just swapping out the original hull mounted weapon for a new one and covering the hole where the turret was with an armor plate.
It would also allow them to jack up the price on the leman Russ boxes, something we know GW likes to do. The Valkyrie kit will do the same if they add vendetta parts.
72133
Post by: StarTrotter
 Crimson Devil wrote:Actually it makes prefect sense. First we know GW will not release rules without models any more.
Second several of the niche units (Ratlings, Ogryns, RR) are still available in metal, not finecast.
Third the new codex will have at least 5 new items. These units will be given rules to sell them. Niche units don't sell well, thus no new kits.
So I would bet New Storm Troopers and maybe one niche unit, a new flyer, and two tank kits. The rest go away.
My apologies but where are my greater daemon named character models? I still cannot find my Khornate beast that has broken wings nor my Great Unclean One that rides nurglings  . I'd agree that they rarely won't make a model but these two models represent that, at least from my understanding, shows a precedence for them having rules for a model they do not produce.
(then again.... chaos daemons were never all that popular.... and a named character is something most people buy at most two of rarely even that)
With that in mind, I find it more likely that they will be re-releasing the Hellhound, Leman Russ boxes, and basilisks with more options allowing them to increase the price of that one vehicle even further whilst having a way to represent every single weapon.
199
Post by: Crimson Devil
The Chaos Daemons were released before the Chapterhouse lawsuit verdict, leading to the current method for new releases.
72133
Post by: StarTrotter
Crimson Devil wrote:The Chaos Daemons were released before the Chapterhouse lawsuit verdict, leading to the current method for new releases.
Oh! My apologies then. I had presumed that the chaos daemon codex was recent enough that it would have been after that. Apologies! (whelp next edition I know what two new models they are releasing!)
77701
Post by: ThunderFury 2575
Sounds pretty cool, but i really enjoyed bodyguards in the CCS, however a new veteran kit sounds amazing, my plan is to have my entire army converted with brettonian heads on cadian bodies, and if another cadian kit comes out that means MOAR CONVERSIONS PARTS ERMAHGERD. Although i'm not please with some aspects of the current codex, i may just forgive the removal of bodyguards if they actually make the bloody elites (ratlings, rough riders, etc) actually worth a glance. Ogryn are awesome but overpriced, and rough riders could be forgone if we just blow the terminators to bits with a demolisher, i want a USE FOR MY HORSIES DAMMIT!
Ranting aside, can't wait!
518
Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Rather than clog this thread with wish lists I started a wish list thread.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/549999.page#6013771
45838
Post by: TechMarine1
Happygrunt wrote:I don't like the sound of this. Cutting the HQ choices down to one choice is dumb and removes flavor from the army. Removing all non-cadians is even worse, as then we get Codex: Cadians and not Codex: Imperial Guard
Giving the salamander as a dedicated transport for command units makes no sense, especially sense there already is a command version of the salamander. Why give Command squads access to the scout tank but not the command and control tank?
Vendettas going up 15 points changes almost nothing. They should be 175, any less is undercoated.
We are not getting the thunderer/destroyer. Neither are we getting the salamander. Both are FW kits and both already have their roles filled by other things in the IG book.
The only thing that makes some sense in this list is the veterans change. Dropping a special weapon puts them in line with FWs rules for veterans and helps to balance out the special weapons spam. Even better if veteran sergeants can all give orders. Might make up for the loss of a gun.
HWS wont be 10 men. Don't get your hopes up.
Every kit listed besides the cadian veterans probably wont happen. There simply isn't a reason to make new kits when some of the core IG units don't even have kits. (Hydras and ordnance batteries, I am looking at you) Not to mention kits that are super old (ogrns) or hard to find (storm troopers).
These rumors get a whole mines worth of salt.
^This.
I would add the charging out of a chimera thing. I mean, seriously. The land raider is an assault tank because the access/exit ramp is in the FRONT. The chimera's ONLY access point is in the REAR.
63000
Post by: Peregrine
Important thing to remember: PLAYTEST DOCUMENTS ARE NOT NECESSARILY A COMPLETE CODEX. Even if a playtest document doesn't include any non-Cadian characters that doesn't mean those characters won't be in the final book, it just means they weren't being tested at that moment.
Veterans going to two special weapons is so unbelievably stupid that I want to call this a fake. Doing that kills their entire reason for existing and reduces IG to nothing more than platoon spam for troops.
The Salamander makes a lot of sense. Not because it's a great unit/model, but because it's an easy dual kit with the Griffon. If GW finally decides to make a plastic Griffon kit throwing in a couple extra parts to make a Salamander is pretty easy if there's space available on one of the sprues.
Destroyer/Thunderer is the same. A Destroyer wouldn't be bad (especially with new rules to make it less of a waste of points), and once you have the Destroyer sprue added to the LRBT kit adding a demolisher cannon to make it a Thunderer is easy. And as an added bonus this gets rid of one of the oldest FW kits that suffers from bad fit problems.
The Vendetta is not going anywhere. The model exists, and the precedent is clearly established that the guns are mounted on external hardpoints that leave the entire transport compartment untouched. Yes, the Vendetta should have been the Vulture, but the time to do that was the last codex. Now it is too late.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
 Dysartes wrote: Agamemnon2 wrote:If we're wishlisting... I want to see them redo Ogryns again. They're insanely costed at the moment, with pitiful Leadership and no options. Though really, they haven't been playable since the crazy days of 2nd edition, so they might as well drop them from the army altogether, since it doesn't seem like they have the ability to get them right.
Out of interest, Aga, what would they need to be "right"?
Lower points costs, being harder to break and not having a five man unit cost 210 points would all be fine places to start.
 Peregrine wrote:Yes, the Vendetta should have been the Vulture, but the time to do that was the last codex. Now it is too late.
While true, this will eventually mean each book with suffocate under the weight of its history, with every single slot overloaded with gimmicky crap from years and editions ago, because nothing is allowed to be removed.
63000
Post by: Peregrine
Agamemnon2 wrote:While true, this will eventually mean each book with suffocate under the weight of its history, with every single slot overloaded with gimmicky crap from years and editions ago, because nothing is allowed to be removed.
The worst offenses can be removed as an absolute last resort. But the Vendetta doesn't need that, it just needs a point increase to reflect its new flyer rules. And TBH this is a compelling argument to stop adding gimmicks, GW needs to learn that it's ok to release a book with updated rules and no new units. For example, the new marine centurions: there's absolutely no reason for those models to exist and if GW would just show a little self-control we wouldn't have to worry about what to do about the people who bought them when it's time to start thinking about the next marine codex.
53595
Post by: Palindrome
Well they badly need a survivability upgrade. They either need eternal warrior or some meatshields and this rumour suggests the latter, they certainly wont be getting 5 heavy weapons whatever happens.
This is a 'playtest' codex from a source with a less than stellar accuracy record, no point getting over excited for the moment.
Please allow squad Sgts to take lasguns again, please?
35096
Post by: Comissar
Although these changes seem interesting,i believe that priority would be releasing all the plastic kits should have been released since 2008. Also,charging vets unit seems an interesting addition
752
Post by: Polonius
Peregrine wrote:
The Vendetta is not going anywhere. The model exists, and the precedent is clearly established that the guns are mounted on external hardpoints that leave the entire transport compartment untouched. Yes, the Vendetta should have been the Vulture, but the time to do that was the last codex. Now it is too late.
Godhammer Landraiders and Razorbacks both rely on internal capacitors to run lascannons, thus reducing transport capacity, while predators, fire prisms, and hammerheads eliminate it completely. There's plenty of precedent for GW to say "glue those hatches shut, because this thing ain't carrying dudes anymore."
I'm not saying they will do that, just that they could.
31080
Post by: RandyMcStab
Or drop capacity to 6, like a razorback.
5951
Post by: Ravajaxe
Kanluwen wrote:Gomericus wrote:I wonder what the 10 man heavy weapons squads will mean and what will happen to the basic platoon,,,hope they do not nerf foot builds
5 heavy weapon teams?
I do not think a change to 10-man heavy weapon squads would mean a nerf to the foot guard builds.
Quite the opposite, it would open up army composition options outside of just : separate platoon squads or big blob squad.
 Palindrome wrote:
Well they badly need a survivability upgrade. They either need eternal warrior or some meatshields and this rumour suggests the latter, they certainly wont be getting 5 heavy weapons whatever happens.
This is a 'playtest' codex from a source with a less than stellar accuracy record, no point getting over excited for the moment.
Please allow squad Sgts to take lasguns again, please?
This. HWS desperately need survivability upgrade. We are far from a proved source, but if true, these rumours go in the right direction.
Current IG platoon organisation dates back to 2nd edition, so it may be fluffy but is obsolete. Squads made of pure HWT were quite playable in 2nd or 3rd edition (and somewhat in 4th too) due to target priority rules, that limited the possibilities for the opponent to shoot them. Their survivability has been worsening throughout the game's editions. Now, HWS are laughable easy kills, in the STR 6-7 plenty-full environment.
I rarely see them deployed even in soft environment games, and do not field them myself, outside of one mortar squad that can take advantage of LOS blocking terrain deep in my deployment zone
Despite of a cheap price, anything else is unplayable.
Other armies do not have such glaring problems with their heavy weapons infantry. Eldar heavy platforms have extraordinary toughness, SM devastators have access to ablative wounds and 3+ save,Tau broadsides have 2+ save and access to drones etc... In fact, half of the flavorful platoon components are not attractive at all.
The cadian squad sprues are old (2003), waste space, do not take full advantage of current GW's moulding technology, and two of them are needed to make a single infantry squad.
A redo of these infantry sprues can open up reorganisation of HWS boxes, so in special weapon squad and HWS composition.
I'm dreaming of a squad of 3 teams plus 4 grunts with a possibility of a sergeant for LD 8.
5269
Post by: lord_blackfang
Peregrine wrote:GW needs to learn that it's ok to release a book with updated rules and no new units.
I fear you might not fully understand how GW makes money.
65463
Post by: Herzlos
Ravajaxe wrote: Their survivability has been worsening throughout the game's editions. Now, HWS are laughable easy kills, in the STR 6-7 plenty-full environment.
Not even that, 6 wounds @ T4, and 5+ armour; means you just need 6 hits with AP5 to wipe them out , or 4 hits and a bad leadership role (so a squad of marines with bolters: 3+ to hit, 4+ to kill, no save).
I still field them, but I've noticed they do almost no damage in most games before getting wiped out. So I would appreciate something to beef them up even if it's just ablative wounds. Automatically Appended Next Post:
They could make money by making less popular kits more desirable, rather than trying to shoehorn completely new kits into the game. Making Ogryns better and providing a plastic kit would (IHMO) make them as much as introducing a completely new unit, whilst not appearing totally cynical.
22190
Post by: Theduke07
A book with updated rules and no new units? That's bonkers players of that army would go nuts.
25703
Post by: juraigamer
This doesn't say anything about new models other than a chimera upgrade kit, so it's nonsense.
71998
Post by: ajsnips44
It needs to be more about the MEN!!!!
56069
Post by: CountCyrus
Wishilisting at its best...
Orders that allow squadron members to shoot at different targets...
Might make taking them helpful.
15115
Post by: Brother SRM
I'm really curious what would happen with a new IG codex for the models alone. Space Marines have been the only exception to the rule (since, well, they're Space Marines) but every release has had 3 plastic boxes and one plastic blister. GW hasn't been keen on making more metals into Finecast or making new Finecast models lately, so what are we really looking at? It seems pretty likely that Ratilngs and Ogryn would get their own kits, but that's 2 out of 3 of the plastic kits for this release. That just seems pretty limiting for a codex release when they can't put out any new units. Maybe I'm full of it, but that's just my speculating.
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
Maybe we'll get a plastic Commissar blister? Good point, I haven't seen a single rumor mention anything about our "inevitable" plastic character. Its either commissar, priest, or tech priest. I don't know of any other characters different enough to warrant a plastic blister.
60720
Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
I'll guess a single guardsman from one of the vanished metal ranges.....
so folk can go out and buy 100s of them to create their regiments again
63000
Post by: Peregrine
 Polonius wrote:Godhammer Landraiders and Razorbacks both rely on internal capacitors to run lascannons, thus reducing transport capacity, while predators, fire prisms, and hammerheads eliminate it completely. There's plenty of precedent for GW to say "glue those hatches shut, because this thing ain't carrying dudes anymore."
I'm not saying they will do that, just that they could.
Except we already have a Vendetta model and it clearly has the lascannons using external battery packs (presumably outside the scope of the game the Vendetta has limited ammunition while the marine tanks can keep firing for months if they need to). If GW says "glue the hatches shut" it would be a stupid and pointless contradiction.
67367
Post by: MajorStoffer
Model wise, the Imperial Guard need a lot work, probably some of the most work alongside CSM and Eldar.
Consider:
Every elite choice is metal still, not even finecast. Stormtroopers, Ogryn, Ratlings.
For HQ, only Creed, kell and the Comissar Lord are in Finecrap, everything else is metal.
In troops, both plastic Cadians and Catachans are oooold, and out-dated, both in aesthetic and sprue content, much like the replaced tactical marine kit. There is also no model for Penal Legion or Veterans of any variety.
In heavy support, we've got the full tank roster, and the kits are fairly modern, 2008 I believe, but we're missing all but the Basilisk for artillery, save for Forgeworld. There is also no Hydra.
At the end of the day, the codex is missing like 1/3 of its models, with another 1/4 only available in metal. The range is mostly ancient or non-existant, and yet somehow it's one of the best selling armies. Just to fill in the missing models would put a Guard release at the largest yet, even moreso to get the metals replaced.
The mairne release was nothing shocking; re-do the oldest troop kit in existance, and the best selling kit, replace some finecast, obligatory unwanted, half-baked new unit, and some much needed AA and anti-MC weapons added.
For the Guard, there's so much missing or in need of replacement, moreso than I'd say any other army, I have no idea what GW will do; Hydra and multi-artillery boxes are safe bets, but beyond that, here be dragons.
15115
Post by: Brother SRM
I wouldn't say the plastics are outdated by any stretch, with the exception of the Catachan infantry squad kit. The Cadians still have a decent amount of detail, and how much more would you really want with Guardsmen? They're not my favorite models, but I like them. The only infantry kit that really needs replacing at all are the standard Catachan infantry.
48253
Post by: rothrich
They did not redo the necron warriors so why would they redo imperial guard? It is hard to say imperial guard have the most missing and outdated models when you think about orks... they are missing way more than the guard. The only real reason I can believe that the guard will come before perks is because they really only need like must have 1 kit for their codex the hydra. Where as orks have no model for koptas, wazdakka, flash gits, zogwart, and have models that no longer fit the aesthetic of the orks at all any more. Buggies and tracks have drivers that don't even look like orks, I think they are rouge trader or gorka morka, grotsnik is just horrid, tankbustas and commandos both are a little funny looking next to an ork boy, mega Bob's are arguable but I personally think they are bad too. Guardians really not that bad off if you really think about it. But yeah guard do need a rules update and their 2 to 3 New units and their new plastic character. It will be fun to see all the complaining when that is all they get.
28269
Post by: Red Corsair
Palindrome wrote:
Well they badly need a survivability upgrade. They either need eternal warrior or some meatshields and this rumour suggests the latter, they certainly wont be getting 5 heavy weapons whatever happens.
This is a 'playtest' codex from a source with a less than stellar accuracy record, no point getting over excited for the moment.
Please allow squad Sgts to take lasguns again, please?
So why not rules for built on cover like they had in 2nd edition. That shield on the gun used to provide hard cover, all they need to do is give the gun a 5++ or stealth really IMO. Automatically Appended Next Post: rothrich wrote:They did not redo the necron warriors so why would they redo imperial guard? It is hard to say imperial guard have the most missing and outdated models when you think about orks... they are missing way more than the guard. The only real reason I can believe that the guard will come before perks is because they really only need like must have 1 kit for their codex the hydra. Where as orks have no model for koptas, wazdakka, flash gits, zogwart, and have models that no longer fit the aesthetic of the orks at all any more. Buggies and tracks have drivers that don't even look like orks, I think they are rouge trader or gorka morka, grotsnik is just horrid, tankbustas and commandos both are a little funny looking next to an ork boy, mega Bob's are arguable but I personally think they are bad too. Guardians really not that bad off if you really think about it. But yeah guard do need a rules update and their 2 to 3 New units and their new plastic character. It will be fun to see all the complaining when that is all they get.
I remember when buggies and track drivers were the only ork models I liked Try building a serious ork army out of 2nd edition orks with out using gorka morka orks. I li9ke the current ork kits...
Back to guard, I would not be shocked to see ratlings and ogrin top vanish, they did in the first 3rd edition guard book after all. I don't think they will do it again, but it certainly would not be the first time.
47181
Post by: Yodhrin
 Brother SRM wrote:I wouldn't say the plastics are outdated by any stretch, with the exception of the Catachan infantry squad kit. The Cadians still have a decent amount of detail, and how much more would you really want with Guardsmen? They're not my favorite models, but I like them. The only infantry kit that really needs replacing at all are the standard Catachan infantry.
They're at least as outdated as the Tactical box was in terms of aesthetics and technological limitations, and it's particularly apparent when you put either the Catachan or Cadian infantry boxes up against their respective Command Squads, even moreso against any of the FW Guard models. Their legs are squat and ludicrously thick, for one. Their feet, hands, and heads are so ridiculously large they're not even "heroic scale" anymore, just "moronic scale". The kits lack almost all the options available to the squad in the rules.
The existing Guard plastics were almost justifiable back when they came twenty to a box for £18, but in the era of the Dark Eldar plastics, the Sternguard box, and such a huge range of third-party "sci-fi human infantry" models, they're a joke at the current price, IMO at any price.
Nobody's saying they have to produce 100% truescaled models, but plastics tech has advanced, and we know GW has access to all but the latest of those advancements, so there's no excuse for producing supposedly-human figures that barely reach five-heads tall, and that's if you convert them so they stand upright rather than their default four-to-four and a half-heads stance.
53595
Post by: Palindrome
Ravajaxe wrote:
Current IG platoon organisation dates back to 2nd edition, so it may be fluffy but is obsolete.
It was heavily influenced by the RT company organisation though, just cleaned up (and it had a marked lack of beastmen). The original Support squad had 10 men and 5 heavy weapons; that could easily be rejigged to 10 men with 3 weapon teams, 3 'spotters' and a Sgt. This would allow 4 abalative wounds which would really help HWS surivive even light small arms fire. Eternal warrior would also be appropriate, possibly even the artillery rules for Lascannon and Autocannon.
The gun shield rule would be nice but its too small a change, a single multilaser shouldn't be able to wipe out a 120 point squad in 1 volley.
The plastic Catachans are really quite poor, all of the deformities of the metals but none of the charm. I can see them being redone, particullary if there is a Codex:Catachans (MkII). The Cadians are fine though, maybe recut to include some more weapon options but the basic kits itself is perfectly servicable.
7375
Post by: BrookM
A Rough Rider kit would be fun.
27727
Post by: Bonde
I can live with the plastic Cadians, but the standard Catachans are a bit poor.
IG have a lot of non vehicle kits needing models or a revamp. We need a true veteran kit, a penal legion kit, a proper rough rider kit and a psyker battle squad kit, so I seriously doubt that we will get an entirely new unit
I don't think that Ogryns or Ratlings will be updated though, since those models are quite recent.
Considering tanks, I'm honestly afraid that some variants might get scrapped if they aren't suitable for a dual kit. GW needs to put out plastics for the current FW models, since their policy as of now is that standard codex units should have standard GW models. Otherwise they could get removed and become true FW units again.
The only tank model that doesn't have at model from either FW or GW is the Colossus. Many people thought that the FW Bombard is the correct model, but that is a Leman Russ size chassis, while the Colossus is a Chimera size chassis.
I could live with an IG release that only had infantry kits, but knowing GW's taste in huge plastic kits, that probably won't happen.
69756
Post by: Tower75
Imperial Guardsmen in mechanised armour, that's what we need!
What, who said that?
52163
Post by: Shandara
 Tower75 wrote:Imperial Guardsmen in mechanised armour, that's what we need!
What, who said that?
Well they have sentinels already. Unless you want some Centurion-like Cadian within a Cadian mecha-walker.
8778
Post by: HisDivineShadow
Platoon organization is not 'dated' its what sets Guard apart from everyone else. The loss of the Platoon structure would send me into a riot, along with other Guard players.
61391
Post by: cert
 Bonde wrote:
The only tank model that doesn't have at model from either FW or GW is the Colossus. Many people thought that the FW Bombard is the correct model, but that is a Leman Russ size chassis, while the Colossus is a Chimera size chassis.
Not according to FW themselves as they refer to the Bombard as being a Colossus, in addition to this it really only uses the tracks of a leman russ and rule wise it has the exact same armour values as a chimera.
49827
Post by: MajorWesJanson
Bonde wrote:The only tank model that doesn't have at model from either FW or GW is the Colossus. Many people thought that the FW Bombard is the correct model, but that is a Leman Russ size chassis, while the Colossus is a Chimera size chassis.
Looking at the Shadowsword, the Colossus would be easy to bundle with the Basilisk/Medusa- Just make the cannon modular like the shadowsword gun- have the breech/gun body with a short wide barrel as the Colossus. For the Medusa, a tapered barrel cap that extends the gun and makes it a smaller muzzle. For the Basilisk, a long thin barrel that plugs into the body to make an earthshaker.
23433
Post by: schadenfreude
1St priority should be a single tank kit for all leman russ and another single kit for all open topped artillery.
Not sure what to do about the hydra it's not open topped and the guns a supposted to be much larger than other ac. It really needs an official GW kit.
The vendetta will cause lots of butthurt. Either IG players will cry that a 15 point price increase with the same stats is harsh and unfair, or non IG players will cry that raising it's cost to that of a helldrake and lowering it's armor to 11/11/10 doesn't go far enough.
The vendetta isn't going to be the #1 source of butthurt if those rumors are true. The #1 source of butthurt would be IG vets being the only unit in the game able to charge out of a transport that isn't an assault vehicle. It's hilariously insulting to every elite cc unit in the game
51769
Post by: Snrub
 schadenfreude wrote:1St priority should be a single tank kit for all leman russ and another single kit for all open topped artillery.
That would be the sensible and logical thing to do. Therefore it won't get done.
Not sure what to do about the hydra it's not open topped and the guns a supposted to be much larger than other ac.
They could either have it on its own or they could combine it with a new tank and have it as a duel kit. Either is acceptable.
The vendetta isn't going to be the #1 source of butthurt if those rumors are true. The #1 source of butthurt would be IG vets being the only unit in the game able to charge out of a transport that isn't an assault vehicle. It's hilariously insulting to every elite cc unit in the game
I really hope this does happen. I desire the tears of all Eldar players.
23433
Post by: schadenfreude
As far as the elimination of the hws box goes my guess is they will have a single box with 8 regular guardsmen and a 2 man heavy weapons team inside
My wish list is for a plastic range on more than just cadians or jungle fighters. If they consolidate HWS and regular infantry and then consolidate command squads and vets it would leave more floor space to introduce another range or 2 of IG infantry. It would also require vehicle crew, but people could just direct order a mordian talaran Valhallan steel legion vostorwhatever and be happy with that.
Players want multi part plastic kits, and IG players shovel out buckets of cash. It makes no damn sense why GW doesn't crank out a regular and command/vet multi partplastic kit for every IG army
49827
Post by: MajorWesJanson
Vendetta for 145 and 11/11/10 seems rather fair IMO.
schadenfreude wrote:As far as the elimination of the hws box goes my guess is they will have a single box with 8 regular guardsmen and a 2 man heavy weapons team inside
My wish list is for a plastic range on more than just cadians or jungle fighters. If they consolidate HWS and regular infantry and then consolidate command squads and vets it would leave more floor space to introduce another range or 2 of IG infantry. It would also require vehicle crew, but people could just direct order a mordian talaran Valhallan steel legion vostorwhatever and be happy with that.
Infantry sprues are currently 5 men on each. No way to do 8 in a box with a HW team unless they do an entirely new sprue.
Command squad kit is nice, but only 5 models and no carapace armor for vets. Command Squads came out with the last Guard codex, so they aren't gong away anytime soon.
Most logical would be a 10 man Vets/Stormtroopers box in Cadian styling for now.
I would love to see any new tank kits have different crew on the sprues than what we have- a female tank crewer, or different style- catachan or steel legion crewer would be awesome and not take up any additional space.
23433
Post by: schadenfreude
 MajorWesJanson wrote:Vendetta for 145 and 11/11/10 seems rather fair IMO.
schadenfreude wrote:As far as the elimination of the hws box goes my guess is they will have a single box with 8 regular guardsmen and a 2 man heavy weapons team inside
My wish list is for a plastic range on more than just cadians or jungle fighters. If they consolidate HWS and regular infantry and then consolidate command squads and vets it would leave more floor space to introduce another range or 2 of IG infantry. It would also require vehicle crew, but people could just direct order a mordian talaran Valhallan steel legion vostorwhatever and be happy with that.
Infantry sprues are currently 5 men on each. No way to do 8 in a box with a HW team unless they do an entirely new sprue.
Command squad kit is nice, but only 5 models and no carapace armor for vets. Command Squads came out with the last Guard codex, so they aren't gong away anytime soon.
Most logical would be a 10 man Vets/Stormtroopers box in Cadian styling for now.
I would love to see any new tank kits have different crew on the sprues than what we have- a female tank crewer, or different style- catachan or steel legion crewer would be awesome and not take up any additional space.
They could Include the old sprue add a sprue with 4 heavy weapon crew, 1 or 2 of each HW, an extra sergeant, and 5 regular guardsmen for a 20 man platoon in a box. With double the guardsmen they could double the price or even increase it slightly over double the price if they were going to raise the price anyways. It would also take less shipping space and packaging.
31886
Post by: dkellyj
Consider the way GW has been taking other IG type HW units...Sabre Defense Platforms and the like.
So now your Heavy Weapon Team is a squad (including a SGT) with either 2 or 3 Heavy Weapons using the Gun Emplacement rules.
So now you MAY (rumor rumor rumor) have a 10 man unit with Ld8 (9 stubborn with Commissar upgrade) that counts as being S7 3+ save. I you fail a Ld check or otherwise leave coherency with the guns, the guns are destroyed.
Add another IG order (named "12 O'clock High") and you can give any infantry unit (the HWS or even a nearby Melta/Plasma-vet unit) Skyfire for that turn.
That would make HWS survivable in the era of no cover S5+ weapons and make them useful against all threat types (IF you pass the orders check).
(EDIT) Model wise it would be pretty easy to either make the HWS 1 of 2 ways:
The guns are a separate kit based on the ADL gun mount. A Quadgun base and mount that holds the weapon, 2 or 3 mounts per kit and enough guns to kit out each mount (3 autocannons, 3 lascannons, 3 Bolters, 3 Grenade launchers, etc..). Then just add the standard squad (sold separately).
A larger kit that has the guns AND all 10 troops in box.
8778
Post by: HisDivineShadow
 Snrub wrote: schadenfreude wrote:1St priority should be a single tank kit for all leman russ and another single kit for all open topped artillery.
That would be the sensible and logical thing to do. Therefore it won't get done.
This is exactly what they did to the Bane blade.
75974
Post by: eclipseoto
I'd hope that one of the new plastic kits is another IG trooper variant, like Valhallans or Steel Legion. Speaking of which, somewhere I feel like a read a resurgence of the Armageddon campaign, which would definitely line up right timeline wise.
78088
Post by: agent1320
Im not sure whether its going to be a good or a bad update
15115
Post by: Brother SRM
In other news: there is a 100% chance of weather today. That's such a vague comment with nothing backing it up, I don't really see the point in making it.
9598
Post by: Quintinus
Brother SRM wrote:
In other news: there is a 100% chance of weather today. That's such a vague comment with nothing backing it up, I don't really see the point in making it.
News at 11; someone pissed in SRM's wheaties.
Seriously lay off dude. Many Guard players in this thread ambivalent about the update, including the guy you replied to.
1185
Post by: marv335
To be honest, I can actually see most of this happening.
The Salamander is a cool looking tank (if nothing else, I've got one somewhere) and would suit a command squad.
The Vendetta is going to get hit with the Nerf Bat hard. That's a given, and to be fair it deserves it.
I wouldn't be surprised if they lost the squadron rule as well.
Personally I'd like to see the return of detachable weapon teams for squads.
Ogryns need something,
A return to auto hitting within 6" perhaps?
Anyway, I like the sound of most of this, To me it sounds like the non-cadian regiments will be coming out as supplements,
15115
Post by: Brother SRM
Cheerios, thank you very much
Ambivalence is one thing, but if you just say "it might be good might be bad" then you've added nothing to the conversation. It would be like a rumor reporting that it's going to be printed on paper. It goes without saying. If you were to say "well, the releases have been trending this way so it might be good, and this way so it might not be" with some evidence or examples, then you've got a half decent post.
For instance, I'm curious if doctrines will be implemented. We're seeing Chapter Tactics similar to the old Space Marine drawbacks/benefits system, and I'm curious if we'll see something like that. It would be good if there were a variety of them and they were all viable. it wouldn't be good if we ended up with one or two that were clearly better and the rest got ignored. Most of the Marine ones seem pretty balanced, so I'm hopeful.
45831
Post by: happygolucky
Awaiting new MC for Guard...
Apart from that I think Veterans will look cool
30432
Post by: Wuyley
I hope they add the "jeeps" in the codex even though everyone says they are gak. Granted this is coming from a player who uses ratlings and ogrens because they also look cool, and not because they are " OP"
58411
Post by: RogueRegault
MrMoustaffa wrote:Anyone else find it funny vets will supposedly have the ability to assault from vehicles?
Also, I'm going to get in trouble for this, but I actually like the sound of these rumors. Several units I've always wanted to try from FW, unit changes that needed it (vets no longer being glorified special weapon squads, actual SWS and HWS's becoming more useful thanks to extra men, Vendetta price increase, etc.) and vet sarges able to give orders sounds awesome. All of this makes me suspect this is wishlisting
If there are only Cadian heroes, that strongly suggests Steel Legion or Catachan supplement. I guess we'll find out soon enough
The "assault from vehicles" thing is what definitely trips my BS meter. If nothing in the Eldar codex got it, and none of the Space Marines got it as chapter tactics, I highly doubt the +1 Imperial Guards will get it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:  happygolucky wrote:Awaiting new MC for Guard...
Apart from that I think Veterans will look cool
Considering the Knightworlds are technically Imperial Guard, I think we'll actually see a straight up Knight Castellan with this release.
73480
Post by: ultimentra
Here's my question, what do you guys think would need to be changed on Storm Troopers to make them more competitive than they are now?
I just want a price decrease and a 24'' range. And change them back to the Hellgun. Sounds alot better than hot-shot lasgun. Maybe more access to special weapons.
Perhaps if they gave squads of 10 3 special weapons, and changed vets to a limit of 2, stormtroopers would just become an elite version of the vet with a 4+.
8778
Post by: HisDivineShadow
If Vets lost one special, but could gain access to a second heavy, coupled with Stormtrooper Sergeant being able to give an order, I think it'd make them both have a role.
20677
Post by: NuggzTheNinja
Not thrilled with these rumors, if true. GW needs to stop changing unit composition. They don't screw around with options for Tactical squads, reducing viable builds, so they shouldn't do so for Veteran squads either.
Truth be told, the only nerf in those rumors that needs to be adopted pertains to Vendettas, and they only need a 20 point increase maximum. Hydras could go to 100 if they gain Interceptor. Other than that, the codex needs buffs, not nerfs. It needs to be able to compete with codices like Tau, basically ignoring cover and the Assault Phase whenever convenient, or Necrons, with their ridiculously undercosted 100 point dedicated transport that flies, has an amazing gun, and magically protects the unit inside no matter what happens to the transport.
5269
Post by: lord_blackfang
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Truth be told, the only nerf in those rumors that needs to be adopted pertains to Vendettas, and they only need a 20 point increase maximum.
That would still leave it vastly superior to any other 6th edition flyer bar the Heldrake. No.
69729
Post by: Insane Smile
I really hope they don't take out Bastogne cause he's not the best but I love his fluff!
27727
Post by: Bonde
cert wrote: Bonde wrote:
The only tank model that doesn't have at model from either FW or GW is the Colossus. Many people thought that the FW Bombard is the correct model, but that is a Leman Russ size chassis, while the Colossus is a Chimera size chassis.
Not according to FW themselves as they refer to the Bombard as being a Colossus, in addition to this it really only uses the tracks of a leman russ and rule wise it has the exact same armour values as a chimera.
Ahh, I didn't know that. It's just that the track size is still slightly off, and the Bombard used to have very different rules from the Colossus.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Bonde wrote:The only tank model that doesn't have at model from either FW or GW is the Colossus. Many people thought that the FW Bombard is the correct model, but that is a Leman Russ size chassis, while the Colossus is a Chimera size chassis.
Looking at the Shadowsword, the Colossus would be easy to bundle with the Basilisk/Medusa- Just make the cannon modular like the shadowsword gun- have the breech/gun body with a short wide barrel as the Colossus. For the Medusa, a tapered barrel cap that extends the gun and makes it a smaller muzzle. For the Basilisk, a long thin barrel that plugs into the body to make an earthshaker.
I agree, GW could still very well pull off a triple kit for those tanks, but then we still need to get a plastic Hydra kit, perhaps paired with another new tank.
44940
Post by: BigJP
I'm surprised they're doing this before orks but maybe they feel its an OP dex.
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
 BigJP wrote:I'm surprised they're doing this before orks but maybe they feel its an OP dexquote]
Uhhh... What?
Other than the vendetta IG really isn't a big problem anymore. Pretty sure Tau and Eldar are the in armies to hate right now. Especially if you don't give us access to allies and FW.
54781
Post by: cableguy7uk
Can't wait for some IG hardware.Just hope GW delivers the goods till then i'll continue building a few home build conversion using other models.
50724
Post by: orkybenji
Wait, people actually like the bobble head Cadians?
77217
Post by: xruslanx
Yes, and that's a stupid and insulting term for them.
Those guys are quite clearly not "bobble heads". If you want to make a thread saying nothing but variations of " GW sucks and everything they do is rubbish, the money gauging lenton-loving spankers" then do so. Or even if you feel the need to spontaniously ejaculate your opinion about Cadian shock troopers into this thread, at least be articulate and explain what it is you dislike about them.
But please don't simply make gak up about how awful they look when quite clearly, they are not "bobble heads".
32186
Post by: Vain
xruslanx wrote:
Yes, and that's a stupid and insulting term for them.
Those guys are quite clearly not "bobble heads". If you want to make a thread saying nothing but variations of " GW sucks and everything they do is rubbish, the money gauging lenton-loving spankers" then do so. Or even if you feel the need to spontaniously ejaculate your opinion about Cadian shock troopers into this thread, at least be articulate and explain what it is you dislike about them.
But please don't simply make gak up about how awful they look when quite clearly, they are not "bobble heads".
Was your father a Cadian? You seem to be taking this very seriously.
One of the problems with the "heroic" scale of a lot of GW models is that to make it look cool, or expressive, they need to make things larger. Cadians show this very well, though their helmets dont really help matters from a 'not looking like a bobble head' point of view.
Take a peek at a comparison between a Cadian in a helmet vs a better scaled DKoK from forgeworld in a fully enclosed helmet with gasmask.
The less heroic sculpt scale and resin medium mean they can be a lot closer to reality (at the cost of being more expensive and time consuming, queue Resin vs Plastic debate)
Marine Sargeants suffer from the same thing, as their bare heads are just a fraction smaller than the normal mk VII helmet that most of the other marines wear.
TL;DR
Yes, Cadians can look a bit bobblehead-y, but they are far from the only GW model to be so.
34439
Post by: Formosa
Yeah, compared to even the old metal models (valhallans etc.) the plastic can'cadians do look naff, catachans even more so.
Here's hoping.for a new plastic infantry kit
59580
Post by: Civik
Not bobbleheads, but still waiting to see the Spaceballs army.
I just look forward to seeing what is actually done in the new dex.
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
So have there been any more real rumors, or is this thread just kind of meandering off topic?
22190
Post by: Theduke07
God more Vendetta whining in 2013 when Tau & Eldar are the ones punching face atm. One flyer is going to the best. Nerf it and you get issues of typical GW selling you something 'op' then making it junk so you have to buy more stuff to fill your points.
52539
Post by: Hydrapup
 lord_blackfang wrote: NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Truth be told, the only nerf in those rumors that needs to be adopted pertains to Vendettas, and they only need a 20 point increase maximum.
That would still leave it vastly superior to any other 6th edition flyer bar the Heldrake. No.
I don't think so ballistic skill 3 really does suck. Even with twin linked my vendetta rarely performs well at all.
67367
Post by: MajorStoffer
I just posted in the wrong thread, curse you tabs. I'd appreciate it if some kindly mod could delete this.
6772
Post by: Vaktathi
The simple fix for the much maligned Vendetta is to make it AV11, add 20pts, move it to Heavy Support, remove Squadron option, done. It'll have enough competition there to make it an actual choice, unlike the HS slot where it's far and away superior to anything else in the slot.
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
 Vaktathi wrote:The simple fix for the much maligned Vendetta is to make it AV11, add 20pts, move it to Heavy Support, remove Squadron option, done. It'll have enough competition there to make it an actual choice, unlike the HS slot where it's far and away superior to anything else in the slot.
I don't even like vendettas and I still think that's way too extreme of a nerf. Putting it at AV 11/11/10 with its current price alone would be a solid nerf. Maybe tack a few points on if needed.
We don't need more heavy support options, that slot is way too crowded as is.
6772
Post by: Vaktathi
Eh, I own 3 , and just the AV11 drop still leaves it vastly superior to most other flyers. The Eldar fighter is AV10 with similar firepower (i've leave the debate of 4 S8 shots at Bs4 and 2 with lance vs 3 TL BS3 S9 guns to another thread) but is AV10 and is significantly more expensive than the Vendetta.
36
Post by: Moopy
The ability to take 3 AND all the heavies makes it really over powered.
Its rather under priced for what it does, and the ability to take multiples lets it dominate the skies.
77217
Post by: xruslanx
all vendettas need is av 11 and 20 points increase. Yes it'd still be op but so what? Some things will always be more powerful than others, as long as it doesn't take the piss then nobody cares.
36
Post by: Moopy
Currently it's taking, "the piss".
All of it.
20677
Post by: NuggzTheNinja
I love how people bitch about Vendettas, when their role is anti-tank in an infantry-heavy edition riddled with ridiculous fliers like Heldrakes, which are far more survivable and have a superior weapon, and Night Scythes, which are 30 points cheaper, have a weapon that is better suited to the current meta, can be taken as a dedicated transport, and provides idiot-proof passenger protection for a troops choice.
If Vendettas were so amazing, you'd see IG winning tournaments galore. As it is, Daemons, Tau, and Eldar are roflstomping everybody. Even with Vendettas, IG doesn't compete in the current meta. I am completely lost as to why people are whining about them.
6772
Post by: Vaktathi
One amazing unit isn't going to mean that the army is going to win tons of tournaments. It does make it a crutch however, which is never good for a codex, not that IG are the only ones facing that, much the same can be said of the Heldrake.
Also, lascannons are effective against a lot more than just tanks, they're highly effective against heavy infantry and MC's as well, especially with 48" range, and against other flyers they're golden. If the vendetta were taken down a peg or two and IG medium armor and infantry were made more capable, I'd take that trade in a heartbeat.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Remove the Vendetta, give me Vultures or give me nothing!
20677
Post by: NuggzTheNinja
In the current meta, a Vulture would be a lot more useful - we can take anti-tank everywhere, but taking Punishers on Vector Dancing fliers is pretty boss. At least people wouldn't be moaning about Vendettas anymore.
The only issue with losing the Vendetta is that it basically leaves IG completely vulnerable to Heldrakes. S5 can't even scratch the paint.
24099
Post by: General Ian
NuggzTheNinja wrote:
In the current meta, a Vulture would be a lot more useful - we can take anti-tank everywhere, but taking Punishers on Vector Dancing fliers is pretty boss. At least people wouldn't be moaning about Vendettas anymore.
The only issue with losing the Vendetta is that it basically leaves IG completely vulnerable to Heldrakes. S5 can't even scratch the paint.
Its not like we have hydras or anything similar that can handle fliers...
5269
Post by: lord_blackfang
What it really needs is a new Gunship subtype of flier: cannot shoot while zooming.
49827
Post by: MajorWesJanson
Agreed. Give the Valk/Vendetta the Gunship rule, drop it to AV11, and make the Vendetta just an upgrade for the Valk (say the Valk comes base with Hellfury/Hellstrike Missiles and a multilaser, can upgrade the Multilaser for a Lascannon for 10 points or a TL LAs for 15, can wap the missiles for a pair of rocket pods for 30 points or a pair of TL Lascannons for 40 points. Then GW could add another flier, like a version of the Thunderbolt (an old model that GW did first) as an AA flier.
11
Post by: ph34r
Why? Such a change would be much more horrific for the fate of the Valkyrie, would break the established fluff around its AV, and would make your proposed cost changes overkill as it would be bad at that point already.
58692
Post by: DarthOvious
Ahem, excuse me, can we induct some of your guardsmen into the Blood Angels chapter? We would very much like to do this.
41203
Post by: Insurgency Walker
ph34r wrote:Why? Such a change would be much more horrific for the fate of the Valkyrie, would break the established fluff around its AV, and would make your proposed cost changes overkill as it would be bad at that point already.
AV11 is where the Valk started its life. But I like the av12 over 11. Go figure
29914
Post by: martin74
Ravajaxe wrote:Here comes the first batch of rumors for 6th edition Imperial Guard codex. Natfka (faeit212 blog author) has received these tidbits. They are supposedly from a playtest document.
september, 2nd
* Company Command is now the only, real HQ you can chose but you can swap the Commander for a Lord-Commissar.
* Primaris Psyker are now Advisors, Bodyguards are gone .
* Only Cadian named characters in this document.
* Salamander is in as transport for CCS/ PCS, open-topped Chimera with Autocannon, transports 6.
* Engineeers are Elite now (but 1-3 per slot), can buff squads in the vicinity (think Force Field and such).
* Priests must join a squad and won’t take HQ slots.
* Veterans, "get some lose some".
Size 5-10, can take 1 heavy wepaon or 1 special weapon per 5 soldiers.
Bastogne is gone but every Veteran Sarge can give orders now.
Can still take shotguns and get option to take pistol & CCW. New Veteran ability allows charging out of transport.
* Special Weapon and Heavy Weapon Squads are now 10 men each.
* Vendetta is gone, instead Valkyries can take the Vendettas-loadout for +45 points.
* Only one entry for Sentinels, no armor upgrade, closed cabin has no game effect but is just cosmetical.
* Thunderer/Destroyer is in.
Thunderer is a cheap Demolisher with nothing but a hull-mounted Demolisher cannon.
Destroyer is a dedicated tank hunter with a laser-lance weapon. Have a, hull-down“ rule that makes them extremely hard to kill if in cover, seem to be area-control units.
* There was talk about a new Cadian Veteran plastic set, 5 miniatures with all options.
* Heavy Weapon Squad will be repacked to include one sprue of standard Cadian infantry.
* Special Weapon Squads might get their own box with a new special weapon sprue (which is also used for Veteran box).
Not saying the body guards ever did much, but, in some small point tournaments I would sometimes have the extra points for them.
No Harker!? No MARBO!? One of two things. Either some one has lost thier mind or GW wants you to purchase a suplamental digital codex, IG: Catachan.
I like the salamander being back in. Even the vendetta load out to a valk is fine.
Seems like the IG are losing more than they are getting. Veterans really took a hit. I lose the ability to carry three special weapons, however, I can charge out a vehicle? Yeah, let me charge out with my I3 soldiers.
Not liking the changes at all.
6772
Post by: Vaktathi
ph34r wrote:Why? Such a change would be much more horrific for the fate of the Valkyrie, would break the established fluff around its AV, and would make your proposed cost changes overkill as it would be bad at that point already.
AV11 is what it was originally intended to be, it was AV11 for years as an Imperial Armour unit, it wasn't AV12 until they made it a skimmer, and provided extra fluff as to why it was AV12 and running as a Skimmer instead of a true flyer.
Really, AV12 should be exceptionally rare for a Flyer, that's full on medium tank armor.
9598
Post by: Quintinus
After reading some of y'all's comments on how to "fix" (neuter) the Vendetta, I am thanking God that none of you are GeeDubs designers.
8778
Post by: HisDivineShadow
Most of the suggestions are so hard a hit with the nerf bat they'd push the Vendetta to where the rest of the FA choices arein the IG codex. Mostly useless.
People want it to cost more, have weaker armor, be able to shoot less. And aapparently as few want all three. At that point, hell, let's just take it out of the codex?
What I think would be enough? Remove the Squadron option. A combined entry for sleekness maybe.
Every Dex has a 'new hotness' it seems a lot of people are just butthurt the Guards is a flyer.
69533
Post by: CommanderRyalis
I agree with the need for more models being made in to plastics, it's really quite frustrating when most but your regular troops and your HS are metal and online.
One of the reasons I love the guard is the variety of models you could potentially field. I think having models for different regiments e.g. Vostroyans, Mordians, etc. really makes the army unique and I would much rather run any of these instead of Cadians (not too keen on Catachans), unfortunately I'm not optimistic GW will ever release them as all plastic. It seems, to me, that it would be to many SKU's they would need to keep inventory on.
58692
Post by: DarthOvious
ph34r wrote:Why? Such a change would be much more horrific for the fate of the Valkyrie, would break the established fluff around its AV, and would make your proposed cost changes overkill as it would be bad at that point already.
Perhaps keep AV12 for the Valkyrie but make the Vendetta AV11?
One thing is for sure if the Vendetta keeps AV12 then it will be increased points wise. It functions a lot like the Stormraven (troop transport & AV12), barring guns of course and thats 200pts.
9431
Post by: niceguyteddy
No assault ramp though.
5269
Post by: lord_blackfang
 HisDivineShadow wrote:Most of the suggestions are so hard a hit with the nerf bat they'd push the Vendetta to where the rest of the FA choices arein the IG codex. Mostly useless.
People want it to cost more, have weaker armor, be able to shoot less. And aapparently as few want all three. At that point, hell, let's just take it out of the codex?
What I think would be enough? Remove the Squadron option. A combined entry for sleekness maybe.
Every Dex has a 'new hotness' it seems a lot of people are just butthurt the Guards is a flyer.
What I want is for the Vendetta to not be the most shooty, the most resilient and the cheapest all at once. Go look at the Tau, Eldar, or DA fliers and then try to justify the Vendetta costing 30-50 points less than those.
58692
Post by: DarthOvious
Actually I didn't know that but I do now (don't play guard). Guard tend to want to shoot at things instead of assaulting them anyway from what I've seen. My friend who does play guard uses an Elysian drop troops list and just shoots peoples faces off when he eventually disembarks.
34243
Post by: Blacksails
 Vladsimpaler wrote:After reading some of y'all's comments on how to "fix" (neuter) the Vendetta, I am thanking God that none of you are GeeDubs designers.
Because GW is doing such an amazing job at creating balanced units and finished rule sets.
Vendetta needs a nerf. I'm definitely on board with the AV11 club. An AV11 Vendetta would be pretty fine at ~150pts, other variables aside.
9598
Post by: Quintinus
Blacksails wrote: Vladsimpaler wrote:After reading some of y'all's comments on how to "fix" (neuter) the Vendetta, I am thanking God that none of you are GeeDubs designers.
Because GW is doing such an amazing job at creating balanced units and finished rule sets.
Vendetta needs a nerf. I'm definitely on board with the AV11 club. An AV11 Vendetta would be pretty fine at ~150pts, other variables aside.
Typical, focusing on "muh feelings" instead of logic. Make it AV 11 OR make it 150. You would do well to see what happened with star cannons as a classic example of doing what you're suggesting.
6772
Post by: Vaktathi
HisDivineShadow wrote:Most of the suggestions are so hard a hit with the nerf bat they'd push the Vendetta to where the rest of the FA choices arein the IG codex. Mostly useless.
People want it to cost more, have weaker armor, be able to shoot less. And aapparently as few want all three. At that point, hell, let's just take it out of the codex?
What I think would be enough? Remove the Squadron option. A combined entry for sleekness maybe.
Every Dex has a 'new hotness' it seems a lot of people are just butthurt the Guards is a flyer.
Vendettas are almost never run in squadrons, you don't need to, it's not like you're going use the other FoC slots for anything else.
To be fair, at AV11, 150pts, and HS, it'd still be a solid unit, just not the auto-buy it is now.
150pts for an AV11 flyer with 3 TL lascannons, a transport capacity, extra armor, hover mode option and a special deployment option is still miles better than most other flyers and still very powerful. Just more appropriately costed, with flyer armor and in the right FoC slot for something with 3 long range, high S, low AP, twin linked guns.
34243
Post by: Blacksails
Vladsimpaler wrote: Blacksails wrote: Vladsimpaler wrote:After reading some of y'all's comments on how to "fix" (neuter) the Vendetta, I am thanking God that none of you are GeeDubs designers.
Because GW is doing such an amazing job at creating balanced units and finished rule sets.
Vendetta needs a nerf. I'm definitely on board with the AV11 club. An AV11 Vendetta would be pretty fine at ~150pts, other variables aside.
Typical, focusing on "muh feelings" instead of logic. Make it AV 11 OR make it 150. You would do well to see what happened with star cannons as a classic example of doing what you're suggesting.
Again, no. An AV11, 150pts Vendetta is still a great unit. See Vaktathi's post below. Right now, the Vendetta is an absolute auto buy. An AV11, 150pts Vendetta is still strong, but no longer the auto-include it is now, especially if it was no longer squadronable, or in the heavy slot, or both.
And I wasn't focusing on 'yuh feelings' (whatever that means). My post was entirely logical. GW is notoriously bad at writing rules and balancing even the simplest of things. Not saying the masses of us are any better, but they're certainly not much worse than what GW has been giving us. If you doubt that, go take a hard look at other games.
8778
Post by: HisDivineShadow
Since this is wish listing now, I want wing mounted Battle cannons and a Vulcan Mega Bolter. Twin linked.
And cost 50 points.
It in seriousness, if the rest of the FA options weren't so over costed, Valks/Vendettas wouldn't be autobuy. I don't see anyone discussing that.
11
Post by: ph34r
Vaktathi wrote:AV11 is what it was originally intended to be, it was AV11 for years as an Imperial Armour unit, it wasn't AV12 until they made it a skimmer, and provided extra fluff as to why it was AV12 and running as a Skimmer instead of a true flyer.
Really, AV12 should be exceptionally rare for a Flyer, that's full on medium tank armor.
This is true, however in recent history, in the majority of its time as a legal unit, and in 99.9% of all games that a Valkyrie/Vendetta has been fielded in it has been AV12, so for balance/testing reasons it would be quite an unprecedented leap. It would be like if GW decided Predators were AV12 (though lets be real they should be AV11 they are the exact same chassis as a rhino) or that Necron vehicles were all AV11/12 instead of AV11/13. It would be bad.
6772
Post by: Vaktathi
ph34r wrote: Vaktathi wrote:AV11 is what it was originally intended to be, it was AV11 for years as an Imperial Armour unit, it wasn't AV12 until they made it a skimmer, and provided extra fluff as to why it was AV12 and running as a Skimmer instead of a true flyer.
Really, AV12 should be exceptionally rare for a Flyer, that's full on medium tank armor.
This is true, however in recent history, in the majority of its time as a legal unit, and in 99.9% of all games that a Valkyrie/Vendetta has been fielded in it has been AV12, so for balance/testing reasons it would be quite an unprecedented leap. It would be like if GW decided Predators were AV12 (though lets be real they should be AV11 they are the exact same chassis as a rhino) or that Necron vehicles were all AV11/12 instead of AV11/13. It would be bad.
Predators have fluff stating they have reinforced internal armor for that AV13, the Valkyrie had fluff justifying it's AV12 operating as a clumsier Skimmer (sometimes they mount heavier armor for close support and landing roles but their maneuverability and speed suffers). If GW wants it to be a proper flyer again, it should go back to AV11, or be AV12 and limited to running as a Skimmer (perhaps an option to field it as either/or). It's not like the Predator example really, as the Valkyrie specifically had fluff inserted justifying its higher armor and thus Skimmer status as opposed to an actual Flyer.
27151
Post by: streamdragon
HisDivineShadow wrote: It in seriousness, if the rest of the FA options weren't so over costed, Valks/Vendettas wouldn't be autobuy. I don't see anyone discussing that.
Flying vehicles are still all the rage what with the Snapshot thing, or needing Skyfire to deal with them. "Regular" AV12 tanks are far, far more vulnerable than an AV12 flyer. You'd have to drop the points on a *hound / sentinel quite a bit to make up just for that.
6772
Post by: Vaktathi
Yeah, until the Hellound and variants start to look around ~70-80ish points, I'm not seeing much of a reason to look at them. Sentinels are just so naff it hurts, and you can't really cut down their cost too much more or it just starts getting weird. RR's may be something to look at, the DKoK Death Riders finally have decent rules so that's something to look at, but unless they get new models, they won't be getting much attention either.
7375
Post by: BrookM
Just so long as Rough Riders aren't cut, I finally have some nice alternate minis and it would be shame if they were to be removed now.
9394
Post by: Malika2
No large action figure kits?
7375
Post by: BrookM
Yeah, still no spring-loaded missiles and water pistol action!
34243
Post by: Blacksails
Vaktathi wrote:I'm not seeing much of a reason to look at them. Sentinels are just so naff it hurts, and you can't really cut down their cost too much more or it just starts getting weird.
Well, I guess they could always move Sentinels as a part of platoons. Make them infantry support vehicles. Maybe even give them a rule to let them score or something. Then they'd at least have a distinct role, though there's no telling how effective of a role it'd be.
36
Post by: Moopy
Anything that causes a S10 hit to each figure w/no armor save when it crashes must hate the unit they put inside it. Unless I'm taking TH/ SS terminators there's no point in putting anything in a Stormraven, assault ramp or no. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Being rude doesn't make your opinion valid.
46486
Post by: jaxor1983
If the point cost of vendettas were to be raised any higher than around 150, they could easily be made irrelevant by replacing them with a couple hydras and a more efficient, higher armor heavy infantry/medium tank killer. And that would suck, since they take a while to glue together and stuff.
6772
Post by: Vaktathi
Blacksails wrote: Vaktathi wrote:I'm not seeing much of a reason to look at them. Sentinels are just so naff it hurts, and you can't really cut down their cost too much more or it just starts getting weird.
Well, I guess they could always move Sentinels as a part of platoons. Make them infantry support vehicles. Maybe even give them a rule to let them score or something. Then they'd at least have a distinct role, though there's no telling how effective of a role it'd be.
That'd be a great move, though they'd still need to be a bit cheaper, 35pts for an AV10 open topped 2HP BS3 mutli-laser isn't a great buy. If they were 25pts and taken as part of a Platoon they'd be solid, with the armored ones at a 15pt upgrade.
jaxor1983 wrote:If the point cost of vendettas were to be raised any higher than around 150, they could easily be made irrelevant by replacing them with a couple hydras and a more efficient, higher armor heavy infantry/medium tank killer.
There isn't one, that's part of the problem The Vendetta is such an efficient tank killer, and so much more survivable, not to mention manueverable, that there's just no replacement. Hydras lack the ability to engage ground targets effectively or heavily armored (either AV14 or 3+/2+ sv units) with much effectiveness.
34243
Post by: Blacksails
Vaktathi wrote:That'd be a great move, though they'd still need to be a bit cheaper, 35pts for an AV10 open topped 2HP BS3 mutli-laser isn't a great buy. If they were 25pts and taken as part of a Platoon they'd be solid, with the armored ones at a 15pt upgrade.
Yeah, a 25pts Sentinel with some sort of special rules and taken as an infantry support would make them at least workable. They'd essentially become cheaper, less durable (no 5++) warwalkers with less killy options. Especially if you make the weapons a touch cheaper (basically take 5pts off each upgrade in the current dex). It'd certainly make them interesting anyways and pull them out of the FA slot.
9394
Post by: Malika2
 BrookM wrote:Yeah, still no spring-loaded missiles and water pistol action!
I've got three words for you: Spring loaded thunderhawk.
As for water pistol action...I think water games are more meant for Slaaneshi forces...
77217
Post by: xruslanx
Vaktathi wrote: HisDivineShadow wrote:Most of the suggestions are so hard a hit with the nerf bat they'd push the Vendetta to where the rest of the FA choices arein the IG codex. Mostly useless.
People want it to cost more, have weaker armor, be able to shoot less. And aapparently as few want all three. At that point, hell, let's just take it out of the codex?
What I think would be enough? Remove the Squadron option. A combined entry for sleekness maybe.
Every Dex has a 'new hotness' it seems a lot of people are just butthurt the Guards is a flyer.
Vendettas are almost never run in squadrons, you don't need to, it's not like you're going use the other FoC slots for anything else.
To be fair, at AV11, 150pts, and HS, it'd still be a solid unit, just not the auto-buy it is now.
150pts for an AV11 flyer with 3 TL lascannons, a transport capacity, extra armor, hover mode option and a special deployment option is still miles better than most other flyers and still very powerful. Just more appropriately costed, with flyer armor and in the right FoC slot for something with 3 long range, high S, low AP, twin linked guns.
you're having a laugh mate. 150 points for an av 11 heavy support that can't start on the table? That would be taken less than armoured sentinals are at the moment, since you'd be castrating your heavy support which is where the goodies are.
7375
Post by: BrookM
 Malika2 wrote: BrookM wrote:Yeah, still no spring-loaded missiles and water pistol action!
I've got three words for you: Spring loaded thunderhawk.
As for water pistol action...I think water games are more meant for Slaaneshi forces...
I feel dirty now, I hope you're happy!
6772
Post by: Vaktathi
Blacksails wrote: Vaktathi wrote:That'd be a great move, though they'd still need to be a bit cheaper, 35pts for an AV10 open topped 2HP BS3 mutli-laser isn't a great buy. If they were 25pts and taken as part of a Platoon they'd be solid, with the armored ones at a 15pt upgrade.
Yeah, a 25pts Sentinel with some sort of special rules and taken as an infantry support would make them at least workable. They'd essentially become cheaper, less durable (no 5++) warwalkers with less killy options. Especially if you make the weapons a touch cheaper (basically take 5pts off each upgrade in the current dex). It'd certainly make them interesting anyways and pull them out of the FA slot.
Indeed, something like that would make them viable and worthwhile, without overpowering them, and giving them a niche that isn't the Über-walker of the Eldar, but is still useful.
xruslanx wrote: Vaktathi wrote: HisDivineShadow wrote:Most of the suggestions are so hard a hit with the nerf bat they'd push the Vendetta to where the rest of the FA choices arein the IG codex. Mostly useless.
People want it to cost more, have weaker armor, be able to shoot less. And aapparently as few want all three. At that point, hell, let's just take it out of the codex?
What I think would be enough? Remove the Squadron option. A combined entry for sleekness maybe.
Every Dex has a 'new hotness' it seems a lot of people are just butthurt the Guards is a flyer.
Vendettas are almost never run in squadrons, you don't need to, it's not like you're going use the other FoC slots for anything else.
To be fair, at AV11, 150pts, and HS, it'd still be a solid unit, just not the auto-buy it is now.
150pts for an AV11 flyer with 3 TL lascannons, a transport capacity, extra armor, hover mode option and a special deployment option is still miles better than most other flyers and still very powerful. Just more appropriately costed, with flyer armor and in the right FoC slot for something with 3 long range, high S, low AP, twin linked guns.
you're having a laugh mate. 150 points for an av 11 heavy support that can't start on the table? That would be taken less than armoured sentinals are at the moment, since you'd be castrating your heavy support which is where the goodies are.
AV11 HS with 3 TL lascannons and possibly two Heavy Bolters as well, that can transport troops, has incredible speed, generate a cover save for itself, is only hit by shooting attacks on 6's in the vast majority of situations and is completely immune to assaults? And can still revert to Skimmer type when it wants? Tri-las predators are 140pts, and while they have a slightly better overall hit rate and better frontal armor, they pack nowhere near the utility, mobility, etc and can't be transports either.
Hell, I own 3, I'd still take them like that.
9598
Post by: Quintinus
While you're at it why don't you just make it so that you can only take one of them for every primary detachment? I bet you would still take them then too. I mean at this rate why not make them 200 points and AV 10 because I bet you would still take them then. Because I mean a land raider is 250 and only has two twin linked lascannons! Talk about a deal.
34243
Post by: Blacksails
Vladsimpaler wrote:While you're at it why don't you just make it so that you can only take one of them for every primary detachment? I bet you would still take them then too. I mean at this rate why not make them 200 points and AV 10 because I bet you would still take them then. Because I mean a land raider is 250 and only has two twin linked lascannons! Talk about a deal.
You sure do know how to properly refute an argument.
Hyperbole and sarcasm really help to highlight your point (or lack thereof).
I imagine its probably easier than intelligently explaining your side or refuting any of the other points with counter points or examples.
77217
Post by: xruslanx
Vaktathi wrote: Blacksails wrote: Vaktathi wrote:That'd be a great move, though they'd still need to be a bit cheaper, 35pts for an AV10 open topped 2HP BS3 mutli-laser isn't a great buy. If they were 25pts and taken as part of a Platoon they'd be solid, with the armored ones at a 15pt upgrade.
Yeah, a 25pts Sentinel with some sort of special rules and taken as an infantry support would make them at least workable. They'd essentially become cheaper, less durable (no 5++) warwalkers with less killy options. Especially if you make the weapons a touch cheaper (basically take 5pts off each upgrade in the current dex). It'd certainly make them interesting anyways and pull them out of the FA slot.
Indeed, something like that would make them viable and worthwhile, without overpowering them, and giving them a niche that isn't the Über-walker of the Eldar, but is still useful.
xruslanx wrote: Vaktathi wrote: HisDivineShadow wrote:Most of the suggestions are so hard a hit with the nerf bat they'd push the Vendetta to where the rest of the FA choices arein the IG codex. Mostly useless.
People want it to cost more, have weaker armor, be able to shoot less. And aapparently as few want all three. At that point, hell, let's just take it out of the codex?
What I think would be enough? Remove the Squadron option. A combined entry for sleekness maybe.
Every Dex has a 'new hotness' it seems a lot of people are just butthurt the Guards is a flyer.
Vendettas are almost never run in squadrons, you don't need to, it's not like you're going use the other FoC slots for anything else.
To be fair, at AV11, 150pts, and HS, it'd still be a solid unit, just not the auto-buy it is now.
150pts for an AV11 flyer with 3 TL lascannons, a transport capacity, extra armor, hover mode option and a special deployment option is still miles better than most other flyers and still very powerful. Just more appropriately costed, with flyer armor and in the right FoC slot for something with 3 long range, high S, low AP, twin linked guns.
you're having a laugh mate. 150 points for an av 11 heavy support that can't start on the table? That would be taken less than armoured sentinals are at the moment, since you'd be castrating your heavy support which is where the goodies are.
AV11 HS with 3 TL lascannons and possibly two Heavy Bolters as well, that can transport troops, has incredible speed, generate a cover save for itself, is only hit by shooting attacks on 6's in the vast majority of situations and is completely immune to assaults? And can still revert to Skimmer type when it wants? Tri-las predators are 140pts, and while they have a slightly better overall hit rate and better frontal armor, they pack nowhere near the utility, mobility, etc and can't be transports either.
Hell, I own 3, I'd still take them like that.
i don't know how any guard player could hope to be taken seriously by saying you'd toss away all of your heavy support in exchange for three weaker vendettas.
Marine players take tri las predators because they don't have access to leman russes or manticores. Marines also do not rely on heavy support to deal damage the way that the guard does, you could make a perfectly killy and efficient marine list without touching heavy support, wheras many guard lists are build around theirs.
You may as well move veterans to hq, and move marbo into the dark eldar codex. It makes about as much sense.
11
Post by: ph34r
Vaktathi wrote:Valkyrie had fluff justifying it's AV12 operating as a clumsier Skimmer (sometimes they mount heavier armor for close support and landing roles but their maneuverability and speed suffers). If GW wants it to be a proper flyer again, it should go back to AV11, or be AV12 and limited to running as a Skimmer (perhaps an option to field it as either/or). It's not like the Predator example really, as the Valkyrie specifically had fluff inserted justifying its higher armor and thus Skimmer status as opposed to an actual Flyer.
Where did you find that information?
I wonder if people advocating for 150-175p vendettas with AV11 would consider them worthwhile ever over a new costed predator? People aren't falling over themselves to take the Predator this edition even though it is now very cost effective and AV13 is more relevant than ever. Predator has almost the exact same firepower as the Vendetta (2.22 vs 2.25 hits per turn) and though the Vendetta is more resilient against non-skyfire weapons and the Predator is worse vs flyer targets, the Vendetta can't shoot turn 1 and unless you intend to take away its flyer status saving grave will probably not be shooting on one of the later turns as well. Predator may therefore output 50% more firepower than the Vendetta for approximately the same cost. The current balance situation between the Vendetta and other similar units in other armies already seems contentious enough to justify a minimum of changes, though with the GW balance pendulum we already know for a fact that it is not in GW's best business interests to make decisions in favor of balance at the cost of sales. Vendettas may yet get a nerf that could put them in an inferior/not top tier competitive position for the next 5 years.
9598
Post by: Quintinus
Blacksails wrote: Vladsimpaler wrote:While you're at it why don't you just make it so that you can only take one of them for every primary detachment? I bet you would still take them then too. I mean at this rate why not make them 200 points and AV 10 because I bet you would still take them then. Because I mean a land raider is 250 and only has two twin linked lascannons! Talk about a deal.
You sure do know how to properly refute an argument. Hyperbole and sarcasm really help to highlight your point (or lack thereof). I imagine its probably easier than intelligently explaining your side or refuting any of the other points with counter points or examples.
If you guys (more directed at Vaktathi) seriously think that a Heavy Support, 150 pt AV11 Vendetta is a good deal then I might as well have fun with the whole thing since it's obvious that you guys REALLY hate it and nothing will fix it. So I have fun with it. Personally I think that making it 160 and keeping it where it is (disallowing squadrons) in Fast Attack is fine. I would still take it for 160 and I most Guard players would still consider it. Granted another underlying issue is the complete worthlessness of other Fast attack selections. Making it 150 and AV 11 and moving it to heavy support? Honestly why not just remove the entry because that's effectively what will happen.
11
Post by: ph34r
xruslanx wrote:Marine players take tri las predators because they don't have access to leman russes or manticores. Marines also do not rely on heavy support to deal damage the way that the guard does, you could make a perfectly killy and efficient marine list without touching heavy support, wheras many guard lists are build around theirs.
You may as well move veterans to hq, and move marbo into the dark eldar codex. It makes about as much sense.
And yet marine players in my opinion definitely have the edge on HS at this point in time. The TFC is now insane and the Predator is extremely good. The vindicator is still better than a Leman Russ Demolisher.
34243
Post by: Blacksails
An 150pts AV11 vendetta would still have a transport capacity, and can maneuver into positions for better AV facings. It'd also be reasonable to give it strafing run, so then it'd hit more reliably against ground targets than the Pred.
Assuming it'll be left in the FA slot, it'd also not compete for other key heavies, also unlike the pred.
Honestly, still a competitively priced unit.
9598
Post by: Quintinus
Blacksails wrote:An 150pts AV11 vendetta would still have a transport capacity, and can maneuver into positions for better AV facings. It'd also be reasonable to give it strafing run, so then it'd hit more reliably against ground targets than the Pred.
Assuming it'll be left in the FA slot, it'd also not compete for other key heavies, also unlike the pred.
Honestly, still a competitively priced unit.
See now this is more reasonable. I'd take a 150pt AV11 Vendetta that had Strafing Run.
34243
Post by: Blacksails
Vladsimpaler wrote: Blacksails wrote:An 150pts AV11 vendetta would still have a transport capacity, and can maneuver into positions for better AV facings. It'd also be reasonable to give it strafing run, so then it'd hit more reliably against ground targets than the Pred.
Assuming it'll be left in the FA slot, it'd also not compete for other key heavies, also unlike the pred.
Honestly, still a competitively priced unit.
See now this is more reasonable. I'd take a 150pt AV11 Vendetta that had Strafing Run.
I figure it'd be logical for a dedicated ground attack/anti-heavy armour gunship would've had it, but I guess that's just the edition change and a lack of a proper update.
Anyways, before this gets further off topic, I think we can safely agree that the Vendetta is overpowered and in need of some not insignificant re balancing. But we'll see what GW in their almighty wisdom has in store for us.
Either way, I'd like to see the Vulture make an appearance.
11
Post by: ph34r
Blacksails wrote:Anyways, before this gets further off topic, I think we can safely agree
Nope :^)
34243
Post by: Blacksails
If not externally overpowered, at least internally so.
There, that should just about sum up any perspective on the vendetta.
Now can we get some news/rumours, please?
11
Post by: ph34r
Blacksails wrote:If not externally overpowered, at least internally so.
There, that should just about sum up any perspective on the vendetta.
Now can we get some news/rumours, please?
I'll agree with that.
There are no new rumors sadly, I wouldn't expect more for a while.
30508
Post by: Captain Avatar
You guys are amusing. Especially those arguing about the Valk/Vendetta's. As to the rumours? Don't put any stock in them.
Now seeing as this has become a thread of conjecture and fantasy, I'll add my 2 pennies worth.
Imho, Valk/Vendettas will get nerfed, both because they need it(were 30 points undercosted as a skimmer in 5th ed) and because this is how gw operates(force the players to buy new models).
Question is" What would be appropriate?".
I'm betting that they will either get bumped to 160 pt for valk 190 for vendetta if they keep their current stats and abilities.
Or
They drop the front/side av to 11 then expect to see 130 for Valk and 160 for Vendetta.
At these points tbey are still better flyers than the Eldar, DE and Tau have.
Also expect to see one or both get repurposed like the Tau Broadside. Something like the Vendetta's lascannons getting replaced by 3tl autocannons or triple inferno cannons.
Btw, think that I've figured out what will happen with the HWT's. Bet gw makes them artillery units. Man, that would be nasty.
My fondest wish for the next codex is that there will be Vostroyan rough riders on cyber horses (space cossaks ftw).
Finally, expect that your snipers will get a Tau style buff like the kroot or sniper drones and that engineers can regenerate hull points on a roll of 4.
It's been fun postulating but Iz gottas goez now. Later
Edit for some of the typos...,tiny keyboard+no stylus=lotsa typos
74495
Post by: Senden
I'd like the see the Valkyrie & Vendetta become dedicated ground attack aircraft and lose Skyfire in return for Strafing run. That would give Thunderbolts and Lightnings a purpose. Move the Hydra into Fast Attack (it is the same chassis as the Hellhound) and make a plastic kit for it and there would be a reason for getting it.
77217
Post by: xruslanx
ph34r wrote:xruslanx wrote:Marine players take tri las predators because they don't have access to leman russes or manticores. Marines also do not rely on heavy support to deal damage the way that the guard does, you could make a perfectly killy and efficient marine list without touching heavy support, wheras many guard lists are build around theirs.
You may as well move veterans to hq, and move marbo into the dark eldar codex. It makes about as much sense.
And yet marine players in my opinion definitely have the edge on HS at this point in time. The TFC is now insane and the Predator is extremely good. The vindicator is still better than a Leman Russ Demolisher.
how do marines 'have the edge'? Demolishers have a turret and, more importantly, av 14/13/11, the vindicators crappy av 13/11/10 can be popped at the side by an autocannon.
Space marines also can't get basilisks or manticores, or any meaningful artillery at all really (whirlwinds are glorified peashooters). Guard's main problems are with troops, everything else just needs a price cut outside of the aforementioned vendetta.
58493
Post by: goundry
The thing with the vendetta is that it offten switches to hover mode to let off or take on troops, so dropping tis armour to 11 or 10 would just kill it as a transport option.
Id be more inclinde to bump it up to 150 points reduce its transport capacity to say 6 so it used for comand squads and the suposed smaller vet squads. but then id say that because it is a heavy flyer remove its jink save.
As for the rest of it instead of releaseing new plastic infantry units what id realy like to see is releasing a number of upgrade packs that have armour plates, diffrent heads weapons that sort of thing so you buy the base cadian or catachan unit and can then use the bits from the upgrade pack to make them diffrent.
well that and i want my plastic hydras
29914
Post by: martin74
 DarthOvious wrote: ph34r wrote:Why? Such a change would be much more horrific for the fate of the Valkyrie, would break the established fluff around its AV, and would make your proposed cost changes overkill as it would be bad at that point already.
Perhaps keep AV12 for the Valkyrie but make the Vendetta AV11?
One thing is for sure if the Vendetta keeps AV12 then it will be increased points wise. It functions a lot like the Stormraven (troop transport & AV12), barring guns of course and thats 200pts.
The vendetta is nothing like a stormraven.
1. not an assault vehicle
2. cannont carry troops and a walker
3. has fixed weapons, only shooting forward. No turret to shoot at a 2nd target, no machine spirit power in the IG
4. Is vunerable to the melta rule, 2 dice on the penetration role.
How to fix the Valk/vendetta.
1. No squadron
2. Point increase to 150 points - 170 range.
A storm talon puts out alot of fire power, twin linked too, at a pretty cheap price. Storm raven puts out as much if not more for more points, but, better protection.
What I want to see the Vendetta do:
1. Dedicated transport for CCS or Storm troopers (similar to how land raiders can do it)
2. Slight points increase
3. Would like deep strike to come back in, (similar to land raider rules for BA)
4. A varient where we can drop a scout sentinel into play (like the forge world)
58692
Post by: DarthOvious
 martin74 wrote: DarthOvious wrote: ph34r wrote:Why? Such a change would be much more horrific for the fate of the Valkyrie, would break the established fluff around its AV, and would make your proposed cost changes overkill as it would be bad at that point already.
Perhaps keep AV12 for the Valkyrie but make the Vendetta AV11?
One thing is for sure if the Vendetta keeps AV12 then it will be increased points wise. It functions a lot like the Stormraven (troop transport & AV12), barring guns of course and thats 200pts.
The vendetta is nothing like a stormraven.
Of course not. It doesn't fly and it doesn't carry troops.
1. not an assault vehicle
I know right. Cause Imperial Guard are famous for their assaults and not all their guns.
2. cannont carry troops and a walker
It can carry troops and you get the special deployment like we do. One extra walker on top of that is not a big difference. Some BA armies don't even take the walkers and just take the troops inside. Anything inside still takes a gigantic hit when the stormraven is destroyed and will probably be dead afterwards.
3. has fixed weapons, only shooting forward. No turret to shoot at a 2nd target, no machine spirit power in the IG
You do get 3 twin linked Lascannons though. Which is just nasty.
4. Is vunerable to the melta rule, 2 dice on the penetration role.
Those quad guns with their Meltas
To sum up, I wasn't stating that the Vendetta was an exact match for the stormraven, but it is very similar in what role it performs and how well it performs that role.
1) You can carry troops. OK so you can't carry a dreadnought but then you don't get any dreadnoughts anyway. However you can still carry squad X from destination A to destination B quickly
2) You are armour value 12
3) You have a special deployment rule. So even if you do get vector locked, you can still deploy.
The differences you cited still don't warrant the massive points cost difference between the Stormraven and the Vendetta.
6772
Post by: Vaktathi
Vladsimpaler wrote:While you're at it why don't you just make it so that you can only take one of them for every primary detachment? I bet you would still take them then too. I mean at this rate why not make them 200 points and AV 10 because I bet you would still take them then. Because I mean a land raider is 250 and only has two twin linked lascannons! Talk about a deal.
Again, a vehicle that's immune to assaults, is only hit by 98% of shooting attacks on 6's, has three twin linked long range guns that ignore all armor saves and can penetrate the heaviest tanks in the game, *and* transport capacity, incredible speed, and can still choose to operate as a skimmer if it chooses to. That's still puts almost everyone else's flyers to shame at 150pts and AV11, barring the Heldrake which i also think should be AV11 (but still would be 20pts more expensive).
this is coming from a guy that owns 3 vendettas.
xruslanx wrote:
i don't know how any guard player could hope to be taken seriously by saying you'd toss away all of your heavy support in exchange for three weaker vendettas.
Because they're silly good, getting that kind of firepower for that low a points investment is very rare, especially on super maneuverable skimmers that are incredibly difficult to engage, and still have a transport option. I'm not saying they'd be an auto-take, that's the point of such changes, but they'd still be very good and you'd have to actually think about taking them, as opposed to just tossing them in as a matter of course.
Marine players take tri las predators because they don't have access to leman russes or manticores.
Neither of which really fulfill the same roll as a trilas predator. Russ tanks aren't there to engage enemy tanks, they're bad at it, they're there to mash infantry of all types. Manticores can engage tanks due to their high Strength fairly effectively but are still much more generalist vehicles.
Marines also do not rely on heavy support to deal damage the way that the guard does, you could make a perfectly killy and efficient marine list without touching heavy support, wheras many guard lists are build around theirs.
To some degree yes, but at the same time, I've definitely run IG armies without any HS before and done just fine.
You may as well move veterans to hq, and move marbo into the dark eldar codex. It makes about as much sense.
Hrm...no.
A gunship transport sporting more firepower than a Land Raider and better direct-fire AT capability than any other unit in the codex sounds like a Heavy Support to me.
ph34r wrote: Vaktathi wrote:Valkyrie had fluff justifying it's AV12 operating as a clumsier Skimmer (sometimes they mount heavier armor for close support and landing roles but their maneuverability and speed suffers). If GW wants it to be a proper flyer again, it should go back to AV11, or be AV12 and limited to running as a Skimmer (perhaps an option to field it as either/or). It's not like the Predator example really, as the Valkyrie specifically had fluff inserted justifying its higher armor and thus Skimmer status as opposed to an actual Flyer.
Where did you find that information?
It's in the codex, talking about how sometimes it gets additional armor plating that limits its maneuverability when engaging in close support operations. I don't have my book on me right now but when I get home I can look up the passage.
I wonder if people advocating for 150-175p vendettas with AV11 would consider them worthwhile ever over a new costed predator? People aren't falling over themselves to take the Predator this edition even though it is now very cost effective and AV13 is more relevant than ever. Predator has almost the exact same firepower as the Vendetta (2.22 vs 2.25 hits per turn) and though the Vendetta is more resilient against non-skyfire weapons and the Predator is worse vs flyer targets, the Vendetta can't shoot turn 1 and unless you intend to take away its flyer status saving grave will probably not be shooting on one of the later turns as well. Predator may therefore output 50% more firepower than the Vendetta for approximately the same cost.
The big thing with the vendetta is that return fire is much less relevant and it can fill multiple roles, and can effectively take *all* the sponson options of a Predator and at very low premium by comparison, on top of being a transport. Right now, 140pts gets you three twin linked lascannons and two heavy bolters on an AV12 flyer platform that can transport 12 dudes, while all the Predator gets 1pt better frontal armor (and 1pt worse side armor) and the ability to start on the table, lacking the speed, transport capacity, and "double sponson" option of the Vendetta.
The current balance situation between the Vendetta and other similar units in other armies already seems contentious enough to justify a minimum of changes, though with the GW balance pendulum we already know for a fact that it is not in GW's best business interests to make decisions in favor of balance at the cost of sales. Vendettas may yet get a nerf that could put them in an inferior/not top tier competitive position for the next 5 years.
To be honest I'm *expecting* vendettas to be 230pts and take 2 HS slots with the way GW goes
58692
Post by: DarthOvious
Vaktathi wrote:
I wonder if people advocating for 150-175p vendettas with AV11 would consider them worthwhile ever over a new costed predator? People aren't falling over themselves to take the Predator this edition even though it is now very cost effective and AV13 is more relevant than ever. Predator has almost the exact same firepower as the Vendetta (2.22 vs 2.25 hits per turn) and though the Vendetta is more resilient against non-skyfire weapons and the Predator is worse vs flyer targets, the Vendetta can't shoot turn 1 and unless you intend to take away its flyer status saving grave will probably not be shooting on one of the later turns as well. Predator may therefore output 50% more firepower than the Vendetta for approximately the same cost.
The big thing with the vendetta is that return fire is much less relevant and it can fill multiple roles, and can effectively take *all* the sponson options of a Predator and at very low premium by comparison, on top of being a transport. Right now, 140pts gets you three twin linked lascannons and two heavy bolters on an AV12 flyer platform that can transport 12 dudes, while all the Predator gets 1pt better frontal armor (and 1pt worse side armor) and the ability to start on the table, lacking the speed, transport capacity, and "double sponson" option of the Vendetta.
I like the way they assume that Marine players are not going to be falling over themselves for predators in the new edition, even though the codex has only been out for 2 weeks and not enough time has been spent to learn what lists work.
29408
Post by: Melissia
* Only one entry for Sentinels, no armor upgrade, closed cabin has no game effect but is just cosmetical.
What.
That's... stupid.
65463
Post by: Herzlos
 Melissia wrote:* Only one entry for Sentinels, no armor upgrade, closed cabin has no game effect but is just cosmetical.
What.
That's... stupid.
Yeah that'll suck. The only reason I field 2 of them is that the 12 front armour makes them vaguely survivable (can't be brought down by 2 glances from bolters at the front).
11
Post by: ph34r
DarthOvious wrote:I like the way they assume that Marine players are not going to be falling over themselves for predators in the new edition, even though the codex has only been out for 2 weeks and not enough time has been spent to learn what lists work.
How old are the CSM and DA books again?
20677
Post by: NuggzTheNinja
lord_blackfang wrote: HisDivineShadow wrote:Most of the suggestions are so hard a hit with the nerf bat they'd push the Vendetta to where the rest of the FA choices arein the IG codex. Mostly useless.
People want it to cost more, have weaker armor, be able to shoot less. And aapparently as few want all three. At that point, hell, let's just take it out of the codex?
What I think would be enough? Remove the Squadron option. A combined entry for sleekness maybe.
Every Dex has a 'new hotness' it seems a lot of people are just butthurt the Guards is a flyer.
What I want is for the Vendetta to not be the most shooty, the most resilient and the cheapest all at once. Go look at the Tau, Eldar, or DA fliers and then try to justify the Vendetta costing 30-50 points less than those.
It's not the most resilient. Heldrakes are far more resilient. Night Scythes are more resilient in terms of passenger protection. It's also not the "most shooty". Both Heldrakes and Night Scythes have a weapon that is better suited to the current meta.
In an infantry-heavy meta, where hardly anybody takes mechanized armies, having 3 Lascannons really isn't that amazing. Vendettas are great for shooting down other fliers and stripping 1 or 2 wounds a turn off of a Riptide or Wraith Knight.
Finally, it's also not the cheapest. Night Scythes weigh in at ~30% fewer points and can be taken as Dedicated Transports.
0 for 3 on this one...
30508
Post by: Captain Avatar
NuggzTheNinja wrote:
It's not the most resilient. Heldrakes are far more resilient. Night Scythes are more resilient in terms of passenger protection. It's also not the "most shooty". Both Heldrakes and Night Scythes have a weapon that is better suited to the current meta.
In an infantry-heavy meta, where hardly anybody takes mechanized armies, having 3 Lascannons really isn't that amazing. Vendettas are great for shooting down other fliers and stripping 1 or 2 wounds a turn off of a Riptide or Wraith Knight.
Finally, it's also not the cheapest. Night Scythes weigh in at ~30% fewer points and can be taken as Dedicated Transports.
0 for 3 on this one...
Disagree about the helldrake being the most resilient. Now the Helldrake is the best dog-fighter and is better at alpha striking than a lone vendetta and as such has an edge 1 on 1.....but then helldrakes can't be taken in squadrons. Remember, we are not just talking about single model comparisons but unit vs unit and as a unit the Vendetta is more durable.
As to fire power, hmmm, a squadron of vendettas can remove a riptide in one turn. Not easily but it can happen. This is what many fail to recognize. A vendetta squadron is like a Tau broadside team from the old codex. A single model while super cheap for what it does, is still only decent. Its when you stack 2-3 models worth of firepower that the unit becomes devastating. This is why the Vendetta is the shootiest.
On the last one, I completely agree, the necron flyer "is" way under costed and op. Still, just because one unit is undercosted and super cheap doesn't preclude the Valk/Vendettas from also being way undercosted/ op. Also, remember that the Valk/Vendetta has better armour.
Later
Edit for corrections
67367
Post by: MajorStoffer
Vendetta better than a heldrake? Not a frigging chance. It's still under-costed, and needs a nerf, but let's be honest here, the Heldrake has almost broken the game.
You have a model which is AV12, regenerates hull points, has a 5+ invuln so it never has to jink and thus snap fire, it can fire in a full 360 degree arc, has an AP3 torrent template, giving it enormous threat radius and ability to just outright remove most models in the game, can vector strike things for reliable damage and can activate an ability to re-roll failed wounds.
It outright ignores what weaknesses fliers has, is a hard counter to pretty much any infantry based army, and is very resilient against most AA weapons. The only thing it isn't good against is heavy vehicle lists; my armoured company couldn't care less about the flying turkeys, but how many armies bring 7+ AV 14/13/10(11) vehicles to the table?
The vendetta, on the other hand, is merely a very good flier; it's probably the best anti-flier flier (that's what I use mine for), and it's an effective transport with good firepower. It is, however, limited by its firing arc, low ballistic skill direct fire weapons (twin linked, admittedly), has poor volume of fire so it's only really effective against vehicles and high value T4 multi-wound models, and doing a wound or two to MCs. Horde armies don't care about it, deep strike armies don't care about it, MC armies don't care very much about them unless in large numbers, only flier spam armies and vehicle lists really have something to worry about it.
Hell, I know a guy locally who often brings 3 vendettas and 2 vultures, and they accomplish far less than 2-3 heldrakes, while representing a larger points investment.
The vendetta should still be more expensive; 160 at absolute minimum, probably 170-180, but that's it really. The Turkey, on the other hand, needs serious consideration and revision.
The vendetta was god when people's lists hadn't yet changed from 5th, and their transports were just getting blown to pieces across the table, but now with a greater focus on foot sloggers, deep striking or easier-to-get cover saves, and no outflanking (which is what really made that thing boss; 3 TL lascannons on side armour is death to most things), it really isn't king anymore.
5269
Post by: lord_blackfang
NuggzTheNinja wrote: lord_blackfang wrote:
Go look at the Tau, Eldar, or DA fliers and then try to justify the Vendetta costing 30-50 points less than those.
[ a bunch of stuff about Heldrakes and Night Scythes ]
0 for 3 on this one...
Uh-huh.
20774
Post by: pretre
Larry Vela on Bell of Lost Souls wrote:
These rumors come to us in multiple sets, and we have ordered them from most trustworthy to least based on a variety of "truthifying methods":
The Probable stuff:
IG Veterans/Stormtroopers (plastic 5-man box)
Hydra
Artillery combo-kit
Roughriders (new plastic box)
The Possible stuff:
IG Regiment Doctrines: Each Regiment (Cadian, Catachan, etc...)has doctrines, similar to SM Chapter tactics. Examples listed were:
Cadians - may issue 2 orders to a unit
Catachans - Move-thru-cover, and Jungle Fighter (???)
Thunderbolt flyer: Very heavy armor, but cannot jink.
The Salt-mine
Imperial Robots - 2 new robots, requiring an Admech handler/enginseer.
Knight Paladin - Taller than riptide, not as tall as Wraithknight. Vanquisher cannon and Uber-chainsword are standard load out. May upgrade to Punisher Cannon, Uber-Fist with Inferno Flamers
31080
Post by: RandyMcStab
Man I really hope we don't get an action figure, cool as Knights are an everything, they should limit that stuff to apoc, obviously the stable door is well open now but SM didn't get one so there's hope.
73480
Post by: ultimentra
I actually would love to have one. That way i wont have to ally in space marines for an Ironclad to have awesome giant robot and giant monster fights.
Also, I want a Leman Russ variant with the Centurion Gravity Cannon and grav amp on it. Good bye riptide.
77217
Post by: xruslanx
 RandyMcStab wrote:Man I really hope we don't get an action figure, cool as Knights are an everything, they should limit that stuff to apoc, obviously the stable door is well open now but SM didn't get one so there's hope.
Dark Angels also didn't get one. Neither did Demons. Imperial Guard quite clearly won't get one, that rumour goes somewhere alongside " GW are going to up the price of tactical squads to £100" in terms of validity.
34328
Post by: l0k1
I call bs on the robots. The knight paladin is only slightly believable to me because of GW's new fondness for big MC models. If rumors hold true about the Vendetta being just a loadout for the Valkyrie, then the Thunderbolt may be true, but doubt it bit because if I recall Thunderbolts are FW territory.
51769
Post by: Snrub
IG Veterans/Stormtroopers (plastic 5-man box)
Make it 10 men you stingy sons of beaches 
1544
Post by: brassangel
ultimentra wrote:I actually would love to have one. That way i wont have to ally in space marines for an Ironclad to have awesome giant robot and giant monster fights.
Also, I want a Leman Russ variant with the Centurion Gravity Cannon and grav amp on it. Good bye riptide.
Because firepower is one thing Imperial Guard lacks...
4566
Post by: catharsix
Snrub wrote:IG Veterans/Stormtroopers (plastic 5-man box)
Make it 10 men you stingy sons of beaches
Though I like the way you think, you and I and every realistic Dakkanaut knows they will be 5-man if they are done at all... :(
-C6
47246
Post by: Yonan
If guard were to get something like chapter tactics, what would fit for the major regiments you reckon? Black Templar have the option for extra units and disabling other units, this would fit well with a lot of regiments too.
Cadians could emphasise orders and discipline but lock out abhumans, Catachans could go for stealth and scouting but lock out commissars, DKK fearless, Tallarn hit and run, so many options. Tanith lock out melta, plasma and lascannon but add extra snipers to squads and army wide camo cloaks. Really hope GW goes for something like that.
51769
Post by: Snrub
 catharsix wrote:Though I like the way you think, you and I and every realistic Dakkanaut knows they will be 5-man if they are done at all... :(
-C6
I know and that's what's makes me cry.
 Yonan wrote:If guard were to get something like chapter tactics, what would fit for the major regiments you reckon? Black Templar have the option for extra units and disabling other units, this would fit well with a lot of regiments too.
Cadians could emphasise orders and discipline but lock out abhumans, Catachans could go for stealth and scouting but lock out commissars, DKK fearless, Tallarn hit and run, so many options. Tanith lock out melta, plasma and lascannon but add extra snipers to squads and army wide camo cloaks. Really hope GW goes for something like that.
I like that idea but i can't help but think it would alienate homebrew regiments. One of those good in theory things.
8778
Post by: HisDivineShadow
I think there is a serious question here, will Guard get Grav weapons? Aside from the variant SM factions, will they spread throughout the Imperial forces or remain SM only?
51769
Post by: Snrub
We don't need grav weapons. We need cheaper infantry...
59580
Post by: Civik
Cheaper as in points or actual dollars per unit?
I look forward to the thunderbolt assuming a plastic variant is made.
21358
Post by: Dysartes
Well, he was answering the other part of your quote, which you seem to have conveniently mislaid...
51769
Post by: Snrub
 Civik wrote:Cheaper as in points or actual dollars per unit?
Dollar wise. $48 for 10 guardsmen is too much considering we used to be able to get 20 men for $50. Though i wouldn't say no to 3pt guardsman.
47246
Post by: Yonan
Snrub wrote: Yonan wrote:If guard were to get something like chapter tactics, what would fit for the major regiments you reckon? Black Templar have the option for extra units and disabling other units, this would fit well with a lot of regiments too. Cadians could emphasise orders and discipline but lock out abhumans, Catachans could go for stealth and scouting but lock out commissars, DKK fearless, Tallarn hit and run, so many options. Tanith lock out melta, plasma and lascannon but add extra snipers to squads and army wide camo cloaks. Really hope GW goes for something like that.
I like that idea but i can't help but think it would alienate homebrew regiments. One of those good in theory things.
No more so than they did for space marines though surely? Homebrew regiments can choose whichever one they like just as space marines can.
42950
Post by: Smitty
Heh, one of my friends thinks that guardsmen should be made BS 2 and that veterans should be BS 3.
No I say, no.
22289
Post by: EmilCrane
If they do a doctrine/traits thing, it should be by regiment type
Eg: Infantry, Reconnaissance, Drop Troops, Mechanized, Combat Engineers etc
67367
Post by: MajorStoffer
One thing I will say is we don't see Death Korps recognized in the codex in any big way; they're FW's baby now.
Regimental Doctrines would make me extremely happy, and the SM precedent is there, but the Chaos precedent is also not there, so it could go either way I think. There's some easy ways to do it too, 2 orders for Cadians makes sense, move through cover/stealth in forests for Catachans, maybe something like BS4 chimeras for Steel Legion, better grav-chuting for drop troop units or valkyries as dedicated transports, larger max squads or somesuch for Valhallans, etc, etc.
Guard are supposed to be one of the most diverse military forces in the setting, and ought to see some way to represent it. The 4th ed book had a pretty complex and interesting, if not entirely balanced doctrine system with clear winners and losers, but they made a decent system for Marines.
I still want plastic steel legion, or plastic mordians, or plastic valhallans, or re-done Cadians, or any new, improved infantry more than anything else. Part of me fears the vet/storm dual kit will have steel-legion esque models, and will only come in 5s for the same price or more as a normal cadian box. I'd be quite heartbroken if that were the case, with models I want for wayyyyyyy more than I'm willing to spend.
I'd have to build an army of one of Victoria's awesome not-guard instead, as by the Emperor, I want to be rid of my cadians.
7375
Post by: BrookM
Chances are that the plastic veterans will be Cadians with Kasrkin like armour.
47246
Post by: Yonan
 MajorStoffer wrote:Guard are supposed to be one of the most diverse military forces in the setting, and ought to see some way to represent it. The 4th ed book had a pretty complex and interesting, if not entirely balanced doctrine system with clear winners and losers, but they made a decent system for Marines.
Yeah exactly, and the Imperial Guard encourages it as it sees it as a strength, though I can't remember where I read that. Prolly a 'dex or Gaunts Ghosts book. Doctrines were definitely not perfect yeah, but was a good idea that needed refining.
Even just in the Gaunts Ghosts books you see multiple guard regiment types that fight differently and have different strengths and weaknesses. Gaunts Ghosts of course, stealth specialists, then you get the Blue Blood heavy infantry, the Pardus armour regiments, the Phantine drop troops and a few others I can't recall the names of. Sure, the commanders put the light infantry on the front line and hold the heavy infantry in reserve, but that's just the guard way ; p If we got a good guard dex, my loathing for GW would substantially reduce. Thankfully as others say, it's just not going to happen so I can continue frothing.
49827
Post by: MajorWesJanson
Larry Vela on Bell of Lost Souls wrote:
These rumors come to us in multiple sets, and we have ordered them from most trustworthy to least based on a variety of "truthifying methods":
The Probable stuff:
IG Veterans/Stormtroopers (plastic 5-man box)
Hydra
Artillery combo-kit
Roughriders (new plastic box)
The Possible stuff:
IG Regiment Doctrines: Each Regiment (Cadian, Catachan, etc...)has doctrines, similar to SM Chapter tactics. Examples listed were:
Cadians - may issue 2 orders to a unit
Catachans - Move-thru-cover, and Jungle Fighter (???)
Thunderbolt flyer: Very heavy armor, but cannot jink.
The Salt-mine
Imperial Robots - 2 new robots, requiring an Admech handler/enginseer.
Knight Paladin - Taller than riptide, not as tall as Wraithknight. Vanquisher cannon and Uber-chainsword are standard load out. May upgrade to Punisher Cannon, Uber-Fist with Inferno Flamers
Kits make sense. Roughriders are ancient and forgotten about. New models and new rules could do a lot for them, assuming the Valk/Vendetta are toned back some to make FA a more competitive slot.
5-man box for IG vets/Stromtroopers doesn't make sense unless Vets go to 5-10 man units like Stormtroopers. If they stuff it full of weapon though, say 5 lasguns, 5 hellguns, 5 lp/ ccw, 2 of each special weapon, tons of head and customization options for $40, I could live with it.
Regimental doctrines honestly seems unnecessary, as that is the SM gimmick. Guard gets orders, DE gets pain tokens, Sisters have faith, Orks have waaagh, ect. Adding more potential doctrines to Veterans would make sense- Vets already have Recon, Demolitions, and Grenadiers to choose from. Adding say Jungle Fighter, Close Order Drill, and one or two others could work.
 l0k1 wrote:I call bs on the robots. The knight paladin is only slightly believable to me because of GW's new fondness for big MC models. If rumors hold true about the Vendetta being just a loadout for the Valkyrie, then the Thunderbolt may be true, but doubt it bit because if I recall Thunderbolts are FW territory.
Thunderbolt as say a 12/12/10 could work, as if the Valk/Vendetta drop to AV11, it would provide a heavy hitter, but more balanced. And while FW has a thunderbolt model, GW will have to step on FW's toes for the IG release anyways with the Medusa, Hydra, and Griffon, so the "We don't copy FW" doesn't stand this time. And GW has had Thunderbolts forever in Epic.
Even making the Vendetta a Valk Upgrade (which it basically is already) would still cause issues for the Guard FA slot as is, which is already cramped with decent options- sentinels and hellhounds and friends are pretty good, just out competed by the Vendetta right now. Adding a Thunderbolt would make things even worse, regardless if they put it in FA or HS. Both are very crowded with good choices. I can see a potential solution though, if they leave the Valk (with vendetta upgrade) in FA as a squadron option for people who want to put command squads and infantry platoons in the things, but also make it a DT option for Vets and Stormtroopers as singles. Or even make them DT option only for say Vets, Stormtroopers, and Company command Squads.
Robots I don't buy, as they would step all over Ogryn and Sentinals I would think. And Honestly, they would fit better in say the next GK codex than in guard.
Knight Paladin could work though. Taller than Riptide shorter than Wraithknight does sound right. Vanq cannon and Chainfist would fit the old model, and punsher cannon and fist with flamers would allow for something like the Knight Errant/Warden. I can buy that rumor, and would buy 3+ of the models (to go with my Titans, as I have a bunch of knights in epic to accompany my Titan Legion in Epic)
722
Post by: Kanluwen
catharsix wrote: Snrub wrote:IG Veterans/Stormtroopers (plastic 5-man box)
Make it 10 men you stingy sons of beaches
Though I like the way you think, you and I and every realistic Dakkanaut knows they will be 5-man if they are done at all... :(
-C6
No, we don't.
What's more there is absolutely nothing stopping you from using the generic Cadians or Catachans as "Veterans". That box would almost certainly be just carapace armored troops.
41664
Post by: ShatteredBlade
Well honestly I would not be surprised if the Über unit for the codex is a baneblade. But I would love to see another guard regiment in plastic as well as a return to the doctrines that you used to be able to take. Like the fourth ed codex where you could have a general force, or you could take the doctrines that gave bonuses and limits.
4884
Post by: Therion
Knight Paladin could work though. Taller than Riptide shorter than Wraithknight does sound right. Vanq cannon and Chainfist would fit the old model, and punsher cannon and fist with flamers would allow for something like the Knight Errant/Warden. I can buy that rumor, and would buy 3+ of the models (to go with my Titans, as I have a bunch of knights in epic to accompany my Titan Legion in Epic)
Not making the Knight Paladin or an equivalent would be a huge mistakes business wise. It would be a massive, massive selling point and would alone give cause for tons of players to start Imperial Guard armies or Imperial Guard allied detachments. I know a lot of people who consider IG really boring because of the distinct, outdated and unbelievable look of their vehicles but a Knight would change everything. I know there are arguments against these types of units, but after the oversized Valkyrie, GK baby carriage, Trygon, other flyers, Tau Riptide, Eldar Wraithknight, and the upcoming mega Tyranid bugs, I think they are moot points. Armies have some huge centrepiece models now, and since IG have a lot of access to them in the background material I can't see any reason why they shouldn't add some to the game.
686
Post by: aka_mythos
I realize that GW could always rewrite fluff but Knights aren't part of the Imperial Guard.They're more their own formation, with tithed service to the Mechanicum rather then the Imperium. I think they're just a bit too removed from regular Imperial Guard use to be represented in the codex. With FW committed to slowly working towards a Mechanicus army I think they're far more likely to do it.
12150
Post by: Vintersorg
I call bs on the Knight. They are part of the Titan Legions on the Knight Worlds, not of the IG forces.
It wouldn't make much sense fluff-wise.
2515
Post by: augustus5
People have been wishlisting for Knights and plastic Thunderhawks forever. They will continue wishlisting for them, and never see them. No credibility to Knights being included in the IG codex. Had the SMs got some big model I might have been convinced otherwise, but it seems that not every codex is going to get one, and the IG have no need for one. There are plenty of great units/models already available. A plastic hydra would make much more sense.
15115
Post by: Brother SRM
MajorWesJanson wrote:
Regimental doctrines honestly seems unnecessary, as that is the SM gimmick. Guard gets orders, DE gets pain tokens, Sisters have faith, Orks have waaagh, ect. Adding more potential doctrines to Veterans would make sense- Vets already have Recon, Demolitions, and Grenadiers to choose from. Adding say Jungle Fighter, Close Order Drill, and one or two others could work.
Doctrines go back to the 4th edition IG codex, and there was even a Catachan supplement in 3rd. There's precedent for it, and I'd like if it was in there. IG are one of the most diverse armies in the universe (being billions strong, with men and equipment from every corner of the galaxy) and I'd like to see that represented in some way.
And I don't get why people are saying Baneblades will be in the regular codex. They're superheavies. They can't be in the regular codex. I know the Riptide and Wraithknight are big, but they're monstrous creatures with large models, not gargantuan creatures or superheavies.
41203
Post by: Insurgency Walker
Flyers started out as appoc. Units and squirmed their way in so i can see why some folks could belive the baneblade could cross. However I don't think the baneblade will be added to the codex, without getting rid of SP. I also don't see them adding a new medium tank kit, which was a rumor from awhile ago. I would dig a plastic T-bolt. And RR as a troop choice.
49827
Post by: MajorWesJanson
Brother SRM wrote: MajorWesJanson wrote:
Regimental doctrines honestly seems unnecessary, as that is the SM gimmick. Guard gets orders, DE gets pain tokens, Sisters have faith, Orks have waaagh, ect. Adding more potential doctrines to Veterans would make sense- Vets already have Recon, Demolitions, and Grenadiers to choose from. Adding say Jungle Fighter, Close Order Drill, and one or two others could work.
Doctrines go back to the 4th edition IG codex, and there was even a Catachan supplement in 3rd. There's precedent for it, and I'd like if it was in there. IG are one of the most diverse armies in the universe (being billions strong, with men and equipment from every corner of the galaxy) and I'd like to see that represented in some way.
True, but Marines lost chapter traits, then got them back. Guard lost traits and got orders instead. I'm pro diversity, but rules-wise, the Guard rules "gimmick" now is Orders, with Traits being the Codex: Marines thing.
Brother SRM wrote:
And I don't get why people are saying Baneblades will be in the regular codex. They're superheavies. They can't be in the regular codex. I know the Riptide and Wraithknight are big, but they're monstrous creatures with large models, not gargantuan creatures or superheavies.
Agreed. Riptide and Wraithknight are tall, but on a large oval, which is between a russ and a land raider in footprint. The Baneblade takes up the same amount of space as 2 land raiders, and is slightly taller as well. And even with the massive simplification that Apoc II brought to superheavies (along with a stupid buff to Destroyer weapons) makes them not all that suitable to normal games. Baneblade will not be in normal games.
46
Post by: alarmingrick
 augustus5 wrote:People have been wishlisting for Knights and plastic Thunderhawks forever. They will continue wishlisting for them, and never see them. No credibility to Knights being included in the IG codex. Had the SMs got some big model I might have been convinced otherwise, but it seems that not every codex is going to get one, and the IG have no need for one. There are plenty of great units/models already available. A plastic hydra would make much more sense.
I agree.
But would add the Hydra getting interceptor and a price bump.
67367
Post by: MajorStoffer
Technically, Marines gimmick is ATSKNF, moreso than chapter tactics. If anything, I'd say the chapter tactics have more to do with "Forging a Narrative" than anything else, as they provide an incentive for themed armies, and are an attempt to bring marines into the somewhat effective category of codecii without majorly revamping the faction (incredibly difficult given the rainbow variety of them with their own books). Guard already have a similar system to the old Marine system of buy a character, get thematic rules with Straken, Chenkov and Al'Rahem as well.
With the Imperial Guard, the current book is very much a product of 5th ed when GW tried to take the competitive scene a little more seriously. There's very little flavour, but a number of effective builds, both generalist and specialist. It doesn't mesh well with the more casual nature of 6th as there's no real reason to do a themed list; just take the best of each FOC choice and hammer the enemy. Doctrines would serve a gameplay purpose, if similar to the SM ones, of encouraging footsloggers or tanks or artillery or whathaveyou, rather than a power axe blob backed by manticores, a vendetta with meltavets and a demolisher and eradicator. It could let them buff the weaker builds indirectly (footsloggers or chimera lists spring to mind, just like IH chapter tactic can make dreadnoughts not completely terrible) while providing reasons to keep the powerful stuff seperated. It would also make the more hobby oriented gamers happy, giving them a reason to buy more stuff to fit their theme. It could also be why the old metal Guard ranges are some of the only "collectors" items to survive the great specialist purge of '13.
Basically, there's gameplay, marketing and fluff reasons to do it, with a recently established precedent and actually have the model range to do it when everything else was canned.
29914
Post by: martin74
A new varient of the Leman Russ would be nice.
14/13/10
twin link lascannon
all other normal options
Price this at about the plasma version, forgot the name, didn't bring codex to afghanistan.
Change the points on the punisher, maybe 15 lower.
7375
Post by: BrookM
You mean the Leman Russ Annihilator?
20677
Post by: NuggzTheNinja
Vintersorg wrote:I call bs on the Knight. They are part of the Titan Legions on the Knight Worlds, not of the IG forces.
It wouldn't make much sense fluff-wise.
Is Officio Assassinorum part of the Grey Knights?
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Vintersorg wrote:I call bs on the Knight. They are part of the Titan Legions on the Knight Worlds, not of the IG forces.
It wouldn't make much sense fluff-wise.
Considering that the Adeptus Mechanicus troops can effectively be considered "Guardsmen with Fiddly Bits", it's not impossible that the AM(who rumors have hinted at getting a Codex of their own--much like the Inquisition which instead got rolled into the Grey Knights book) could be rolled into the Guard book with a specific troop option 'unlocked' by a character ala Coteaz and Henchmen.
60281
Post by: FarseerAndyMan
I would start another I.G. army JUST to get a bad arse giant stomping warmachine!!
686
Post by: aka_mythos
I think a Knight in the IG codex would be misplaced. That said why does it have to be a "Knight" and why not just a bigger sentinel?-Even then I think GW could come up with something better to give IG.
52617
Post by: Lockark
 aka_mythos wrote:I think a Knight in the IG codex would be misplaced. That said why does it have to be a "Knight" and why not just a bigger sentinel?-Even then I think GW could come up with something better to give IG.
In all honesty a knight feels more at home in a IG book with Imperial Army and Imperial navy units then say a SM book.
Fluff wise it seems the adteptus mechanic fight alongside IG more often then SM.
57210
Post by: DemetriDominov
There should be a larger version of the sentinel, like a golaith from SC. Also, why aren't there more "resistance" type fighters? Bring back booby traps, more options for stealth, and why not have an opportunity to "craft your own hero" by having an independent character that's the statline of a high leadership gaurdsmen? Give us back the opportunity to equip the IC any way we wish, and even pay for some aura traits like MTC. What happened to doctrines? Don't the SMs have unique abilities for each chapter, even the DIY's? Why can't we be rewarded by making a themed army, or even a blended one? Wouldn't the Vostroyans and Vahallans be a force to be reckoned with as would the Tallarans, Catachans, and the Tanith 1st and Onlys, or Elysia's droptroops and Cadia, or the DkoK and the Harkonian Warhawks? There's some serious potential we as gamers are missing out of. In the same token howerver, I do appreciate the streamlined codex of the last edition, so compartmetalizing each division of the IG is a must. But its not as though GW has any practice with that in the SMs....
686
Post by: aka_mythos
 Lockark wrote: aka_mythos wrote:I think a Knight in the IG codex would be misplaced. That said why does it have to be a "Knight" and why not just a bigger sentinel?-Even then I think GW could come up with something better to give IG.
In all honesty a knight feels more at home in a IG book with Imperial Army and Imperial navy units then say a SM book.
Fluff wise it seems the adteptus mechanic fight alongside IG more often then SM.
Well I don't believe Knights belong with either IG or SM. It isn't even as simple as saying Adeptus Mechanicus fight along the IG either... Knights are at best a formation more removed from the IG than any inquisitorial unit.
77720
Post by: scommy
hmm tank destroyers yummm. Hope its a SU-152 lookalike, that has to be the most scary looking vehicle ever..
54614
Post by: sierra 1247
a plastic thunderbolt does sound fun..
1367
Post by: Knighty
MajorStoffer wrote:Regimental Doctrines would make me extremely happy, and the SM precedent is there, but the Chaos precedent is also not there, so it could go either way I think. There's some easy ways to do it too, 2 orders for Cadians makes sense, move through cover/stealth in forests for Catachans, maybe something like BS4 chimeras for Steel Legion, better grav-chuting for drop troop units or valkyries as dedicated transports, larger max squads or somesuch for Valhallans, etc, etc.
Guard are supposed to be one of the most diverse military forces in the setting, and ought to see some way to represent it. The 4th ed book had a pretty complex and interesting, if not entirely balanced doctrine system with clear winners and losers, but they made a decent system for Marines.
I very much suspect that things like this will be in future supplements, and the codex with be generic guard/cadians
47598
Post by: motyak
If there is actually a knight paladin, that model would definitely need to find its way into my hands (assuming its good). Even if it never sees the table, there is just so much potential (again, assuming its good)
64417
Post by: Iron Dragon
I don't know if it was just a unique case, but a buddy of mine just ordered a Basilisk. When GW shipped it to the FLGS, it came in a standard cardboard box. There was no GW box, just the sprues, instructions and transfers inside of a plain brown cardboard box. I thought about it, if this isn't a unique case then perhaps GW still has the molds on standby for whenever people buy the Basilisk, but have stopped ordering new boxes because they have a new kit coming out soon? I'd imagine a big company like GW would have to order their kit boxes in bulk and they see no reason to get a bunch if their new kit is just a few months away?
It's all conjecture on my part, but I think it's interesting. Then again it may have just been some kind of hiccup in the system.
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
I believe some of the Eldar models came like this a little while ago. I think I remember a FLGS owner complaining about it.
63623
Post by: Tannhauser42
Interesting that GW would do that, given their most recent trading terms with store require the GW brand to be plastered all over the packaging to prove that it is an authentic GW product.
1145
Post by: derling
MajorStoffer wrote:
With the Imperial Guard, the current book is very much a product of 5th ed when GW tried to take the competitive scene a little more seriously.
.
That statement strikes me funny, as it only works on the assumption the poster knows the unknowable.
To say the dev studio philosophy on codex design intentionally has made any effort one way or another regarding "competitive play"since 3rd editon(and maracay be 4th) strikes me as very unlikely.
 Like most of their design philosophy, the rule design serves three functions:
1. sell models, ussually ones people haven't stocked up on yet
2. Sell more models, often by making poor selling choices more tantalizing
2. Make the game modestly balanced and let people derive some sense of fun in a group of like minded nerds and socially stunted man children who feel the vast quantities of time and money they've invested makes them the next Robert E. Lee or Norman Schwarzkopf.(of course the smartest man children know this last sentence is a lie and enjoy it for what it is....a reason to gather into herds inhaling 20oz sodas, curse at their bad luck in dice, and converse about how cannons with lasers on them Are cooler than cannons without lasers.
The IG codex design was an exploration of increasing model counts of all shapes and sizes married to a desire to throw in some crazy IG have been. What it will be this time, I do not know. I'm not sure if they'll get doctrine-esque rules. But it would bee nice to se one similar to HH rites of war. Steel legions, armored companies, air cavalry themed force selection without bulking up on special rules. Maybe you throw a special rule bone to catachans since you are supporting 2 plastic model ranges for a single army design. Trade armor save 6 for str4 or move through cover. Let's leave it to chance!
Drumroll please...
 ... Damn my luck.
77217
Post by: xruslanx
if the point of codexes was to sell models, they'd let you bring squads of commissars and leman russes would be crap. But then you go onto insult 40k players. Classic dakka.
73480
Post by: ultimentra
 Iron Dragon wrote:I don't know if it was just a unique case, but a buddy of mine just ordered a Basilisk. When GW shipped it to the FLGS, it came in a standard cardboard box. There was no GW box, just the sprues, instructions and transfers inside of a plain brown cardboard box. I thought about it, if this isn't a unique case then perhaps GW still has the molds on standby for whenever people buy the Basilisk, but have stopped ordering new boxes because they have a new kit coming out soon? I'd imagine a big company like GW would have to order their kit boxes in bulk and they see no reason to get a bunch if their new kit is just a few months away?
It's all conjecture on my part, but I think it's interesting. Then again it may have just been some kind of hiccup in the system.
I actually saw this recently at my FLGS, the basilisk was sitting on a shelf in a cardboard box and I thought man this must be like an on-sprue bassy that someone traded in for store credit, maybe its got a reduced price. Nope, still 50 bucks. I asked about it and my FLGS owner (not a games workshop, its a regular game store) said that this is part of GW weeding out its least-sold 40k products to make room for new ones as they came out.
I have the same sneaking suspicion that we will see the kit re-released with one additional sprue to make an official version of the Medusa, Colossus, etc along with a price hike to 65 dollars.
1544
Post by: brassangel
I want to see more options, and a variety of lists that compete well with the other 6th edition books.
In other words, I want another 6th edition codex.
1145
Post by: derling
xruslanx wrote:if the point of codexes was to sell models, they'd let you bring squads of commissars and leman russes would be crap. But then you go onto insult 40k players. Classic dakka.
You misunderstand my point or I made it poorly in a vane attempt at being clever. I play lots of 40k... My friends all play 40k. My name is in several GW army books. I'm the Herculean Man-Godling of a 40k nerd.
My elusive point was that the design studio never had a strong focus one way or the other regarding competitive play. They exist to sell models and provide us a fun time in the process. The comment about 5th being competitive play focus caught me funny, as that never seemed to be driven in discussions. That's all...
rats!
77217
Post by: xruslanx
 derling wrote:xruslanx wrote:if the point of codexes was to sell models, they'd let you bring squads of commissars and leman russes would be crap. But then you go onto insult 40k players. Classic dakka.
You misunderstand my point or I made it poorly in a vane attempt at being clever. I play lots of 40k... My friends all play 40k. My name is in several GW army books. I'm the Herculean Man-Godling of a 40k nerd.
My elusive point was that the design studio never had a strong focus one way or the other regarding competitive play. They exist to sell models and provide us a fun time in the process. The comment about 5th being competitive play focus caught me funny, as that never seemed to be driven in discussions. That's all...
rats!
My apologies, I miss-understood your post.
1145
Post by: derling
no worries, What I pass for dry humor looks considerably close to trolling. Also On DakkaDakka, I would have been suspect too
30432
Post by: Wuyley
I heard someone talking that GW doesn't want to "cannibalize" forge world stuff anymore in their new codex's. Is that true? I was hoping that this new codex gave us those cool jeep models and a new Imperial Navy flyer.
63000
Post by: Peregrine
 Wuyley wrote:I heard someone talking that GW doesn't want to "cannibalize" forge world stuff anymore in their new codex's. Is that true? I was hoping that this new codex gave us those cool jeep models and a new Imperial Navy flyer.
GW realized that it's better to make new models and keep selling the old one than to just move the FW model to plastic. So expect a completely new $100 flyer kit that you've never even seen mentioned in the fluff before so that you can buy one to go with your Thunderbolts.
53595
Post by: Palindrome
Kanluwen wrote:
Considering that the Adeptus Mechanicus troops can effectively be considered "Guardsmen with Fiddly Bits"
That's only really true for Skitarii and their more common armour formations. GW isn't adverse to making shoddy fluff retcons though so they could simply make Knight Households Imperial in order to cram yet another mismatched 'cool' toy into a 28mm game. The concept of knights is sound and interesting, but only for Epic.
I suspect that most of these 'rumours' are complete bollocks
5951
Post by: Ravajaxe
The sound from imperial artillery begins to resound back in the battlefield.
Here is some new stuff posted by Larry Vela on Bell of Lost Souls (front page updated) :
* Codex Imperial Guard launches in March 2014
* Look for many refreshes in the codex rules.
* Expanded command system with the return of Doctrines
* The missing IG tanks will be released:
- Griffon/Collosus/Medusa artillery kit
* Stormtroopers released
* Veterans released
--> These two infantry kits include many, many optional bits to build command squads and even penal troops.
* New centerpiece kit is a Horus Heresy era tank.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Also this, already posted by pretre in another thread:
http://www.war-gamer.co.uk/updated-imperial-guard-rumours/
Noel at Wargamer wrote:
-‘Mission Objectives’ are potentially a new special rule for the Imperial Guard, although my channels are a little dry on this front, one can only begin to imagine what they do. I heard on the grapevine, that this special rule would allow even sergeants, to order ‘minor orders’ to their own unit.
-Formerly Forge World dominated vehicles will take a tour in the Imperial Guard codex. This means we could see such units as the Forge World Destroyer Tank Hunter as part of the upcoming codex. Although one finds it extremely unlikely they will receive a new plastic kit.
-Headquarters units have seen a massive shake up. Above the whole organisation, some units have been deleted, others modified. You start by buying a command squad, this is then changed by swapping the officer for a commissar, if one wishes too. The three present advisors have been retained, with the addition of the Primaris Psyker as a command squad advisor.
-Ministorum Priests are back in the same manner as before, this time though it has been rumoured they increase the ranged output of the unit, as well combat potential. Maybe in the form of the ‘preferred enemy’ special rule, who knows?
-The mighty (or not so mighty Enginseer) has stayed relatively the same, except for the transition from HQ to either Elite or Heavy Support. But what excites me the most, are their roles on the field of battle. Apparently they will act much like Royal Courts in the Necron army, bought with certain upgrades, then attached out to other units, to confer certain benefits to that unit.
-In terms of repacking, it is believed that special weapon squads will receive their own box set. This is also rumoured to be extended to veteran squads and heavy weapon teams. Coming in boxes of five models, with a wide variety of special equipment.
-Moving on from the veteran weapon squads re-boxing, it is believed that they will be changing their position on the battlefield. With smaller squad sizes, veterans seem to be taking a fire support role, that focuses on battlefield specialisation.
-Vendetta and Valkyrie gunship’ will more than likely be streamlined into one unit. Also it is believed that the squadron option will be lost, and an increase in points to balance out the power of Vendetta and Valkyrie gunship’ in sixth edition.
|
|
