Apparently any negative post about the new codex is frowned upon. So these are merely some points that I noticed about various units in the new codex. Feel free to post your own observations or counter points, but please do not just say "it just came out QQ", especially if you are a Tau player .

On Centurions (aka meganobz):
"Basically one dead Riptide or Wraithknight a turn if you're in range."

250pts base for 3 models that are slow & purposeful, 24" range, and their ONLY option for alternate movement or deployment is a 250pt landraider. So your talking 500 pts for them to be useful. The grav cannons would be GREAT if there were any way to get them there for a reasonable price. As it is you are just politely asking your opponent to have his riptides or wave serpents hold still while you plod forward into range.

"Army wide hit and run is amazing. Most of the chapter tactics are at least good, and really, FREE, Army Wide USRs is super good."

None of the chapter tactics are as good as being able to choose to fail a ld check & then auto rally.

Tiberius is great, but not with centurions. Not much will make Centurions useable at their points cost. Possibly all bolters with IF chap tactics to put out volume fire, rerolling 1's with tank hunter to kill light vehicles, possibly.

"BT can put down 120 T4 bodies at less than 1500 points"

Anything that buffs CC is mostly a waste at this point. Power armor spam is a decent tactic but I don't think it can compete with taudar. Besides DA do it better with the Dakkabanner. BT have nothing to help them get into combat through all that overwatch. Maybe a triple LRC list & try to line up all your units to charge on the same turn. But that will be VERY difficult to do.

TF are great & even better than before, Grav weapons on bikes are also good. These & Tigurius are about all I like in the dex.

"Centurians with the las cannon is like a cheap dread that can't get dinged by auto cannons (but get wasted by plasma"
Note that 3 centurions with las is 250 base, +30 for missiles, +10 for split fire on 1 model. So 290 for 3x T5 models, 6 wounds total. They have absolutely nothing to keep from getting tarpitted in CC, no running, no overwatch, no sweeping advance.

So far we've got:
Bike w/grav (not so good against horde armies)
Tigurius
TFC


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Okay without playing a game with it, I'll also say that marines are going to lose the exact same kinds of battles to Tau, Eldar, Daemons and CSM. Because there's not enough in this book to combat the current meta.


I've played 2 games so far. 1 against a deldar list that was a combo of venom/WS spam with a wraith knight & jet seer council, another against a tau/tau list with riptides & a far/sun bomb. Don't think I need to go through the specifics because I'm sure everyone is familiar with the inevitable outcome.

I have a game on monday against a tau/dar list which I'm sure will be oodles of fun!

Well, thats why you shouldn't run Centurions with only Grav Weapons. I certainly don't plan on spamming Grav weapons. I'm looking at twin-linked lascannons and missile launchers. Now that's fire power.

If I need to kill a giant MC I'll put grav weapons on something that can get into range. Or I'll use Lascannons and Melta weapons, they worked fine before and they'll work fine now.


The book is a good one from what little I've seen personally, and if what half of what I've heard is true its amazing. Just different.

14 point tac marines are awesome!

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, thats why you shouldn't run Centurions with only Grav Weapons. I certainly don't plan on spamming Grav weapons. I'm looking at twin-linked lascannons and missile launchers. Now that's fire power.

If I need to kill a giant MC I'll put grav weapons on something that can get into range. Or I'll use Lascannons and Melta weapons, they worked fine before and they'll work fine now.


The book is a good one from what little I've seen personally, and if what half of what I've heard is true its amazing. Just different.

14 point tac marines are awesome!

So 3x Cents with las/missile is 280(290 w/split fire) base for 6 wounds total T5 & a 2+. Add 90pts for additional models & pray they don't get stuck in CC. I'm not sold. Bikes are definitely the way to go for grav. Just too bad grav is such short range & no go against weak units.

I would gladly walk those Centurions up the board.

Why?

They have a 36" threat range and can withstand a ton of firepower. They don't need the Land Raider. Oh and Tigurius is sick with Centurions. Divination giving rerolls to hit with that many dice works wonders.

As for the LC Centurions... If you have them tarpitted or they are in the place to be tarpitted, you deserve to lose. They should be in the back shooting down the board.

You should seriously play this book out before jumping to conclusions. Tau and Eldar are not unbeatable, you just have to use the right tools in the right place.

I've had the book as long as you and I see plenty of potential.

If they get stuck in combat its my fault. Things with a 48" range should be easy to keep from getting stuck in.

I'm not feeling the hype over Gravity weapons though. Its just a weapon with a very narrow specialization(low armor save models) and little effectiveness against vehicles. I'll take a couple, but I'm not going to spam it. Compared to the option for a TL-lascannon and missile launcher it sucks against vehicles and those same weapons can kill a Wraithknight just as dead, and from 24" farther way to boot.

I'm just annoyed I can't pick up the codex yet due to $$$ constraints.



and hey, I just beat Eldar in a tournament with freaking footslogging GK Terminators. Yes they had all the cheesy loadouts and everything. If I can do it with footsloggin GK terminators, the SM codex can do it with what they just got.

Are you talking 36" for the Grav cannons? If so, how? A couple squads of fire warriors will take them down in a couple turns. They are only slightly more durable than a terminator squad, maybe less when you take into account the lack of invul. What do you think will happen to them when 3 crisis suits with plasma drop in on them?

"If they get stuck in combat its my fault. Things with a 48" range should be easy to keep from getting stuck in."
Agreed but we're talking about 3 tl-las shots & 3 krak missile shots for 290, regardless of whether they get tarpitted or not.

On a side note: how about that awesome reclusiam command squad box set eh?

Puscifer wrote:
I would gladly walk those Centurions up the board.

Why?

They have a 36" threat range and can withstand a ton of firepower. They don't need the Land Raider. Oh and Tigurius is sick with Centurions. Divination giving rerolls to hit with that many dice works wonders.

As for the LC Centurions... If you have them tarpitted or they are in the place to be tarpitted, you deserve to lose. They should be in the back shooting down the board.

You should seriously play this book out before jumping to conclusions. Tau and Eldar are not unbeatable, you just have to use the right tools in the right place.

I've had the book as long as you and I see plenty of potential.

I don't know I'd walk them up the board (at least against Tau or Eldar) -- Eldar have enough to wipe a whole unit fairly easily (D-Scythes, TL Suncannons, etc...). But I agree with the rest of what you said. Proper placement and the limitless amount of combos from various chapter tactics and HQ's will effect how they are played.

I'm still liking the idea of taking them with the IH CT and placing them on a Skyshield Landing pad giving them a 2+/3+(cover)/4++/6+ FNP and IWND on the Sergeant. Give them Lascannons/ML and they could really be a threat.

Centurions are okay, but with their new price cuts Devs and bikes can do more or less everything they can for cheaper and faster in the case of bikes...

The best part about the codex to me is the chapter tactics though they may not seem like much at first but they make a difference.

 Fulcrum wrote:
Are you talking 36" for the Grav cannons? If so, how? A couple squads of fire warriors will take them down in a couple turns. They are only slightly more durable than a terminator squad, maybe less when you take into account the lack of invul. What do you think will happen to them when 3 crisis suits with plasma drop in on them?

"If they get stuck in combat its my fault. Things with a 48" range should be easy to keep from getting stuck in."
Agreed but we're talking about 3 tl-las shots & 3 krak missile shots for 290, regardless of whether they get tarpitted or not.

On a side note: how about that awesome reclusiam command squad box set eh?

3 lascannons and 3 krak missile shots is pretty good when it comes on T5 2+ armor 2 wound bodies. And Split Fire is way awesome. I can fire one of those lascannons and krak missiles at something else if I need to. Pop 2 transports a turn, slam 2 MCs at a time, etc...

290 points is a steal. especially considering that a similarly equipped amount of Devestators cost more and don't have twin-linked.

Lack of Invuln isn't a big deal because they'll be sitting behind an Aegis line. Or on top of a Sky Shield for a 4+ invuln(and other stuff can be up there too)

And nobody in their right mind deep strikes anything without some sort of way to mitigate the scatter risks, in which case they're dropping way more than 290 points down.

One of the problems goes back to the fact that the ML sucks hard. So, of course, the hurricane bolter can only be changed out to a ML!!! WTF??

Auto rally and Hit & Run is pretty burly.

But I think alot of people are overlooking the Iron Hands getting It Will Not Die on Characters and Vehicles- the bonus on repair rolls for the techmarines is a cherry on top. Self healing vehicles and characters? O.o

But I really dont see Cents getting within 24" of a highly mobile MC like a Riptide very often. Theres better ways to sink the points that will do the job(and cost less $$) Theyre just too many points in one basket that doesnt have an Inv save(unless I missed something...) Its like they wanted to be Obliterators or Broadsides- but by the time you load them to be an equivalent, they cost a good bit more than either of those and arent as durable. I think the basic bolter loadout will be great for horde work-but past that the cost spikes. And they're big lumps of Grav-bait in thier own right.

I am impressed with the sneaky scout improvements- they got cheaper. And the Storm speeder is now only available as a dedicated transport for scouts(no waasting a FA slot) To go a step further- the Storm has a Cerebus launcher- which throws a large template 18" and causes Blind. And its pretty cheap itself. It still only carries 5 guys- but, Combat squads.

You wont see scout armies- but one or two squads for objective camping/grabbing with a storm wouldnt be a surprise.

Thats another thing- everyone but Centurions and Honor/Command squads can Combat Squad. That adds alot of verstatility in terms of both army list design and deployment for the various missions.

Also worth nting you can ally Space mariens with- space marines! As long as the Chapter tactics differ. So, mix and match accordingly

 NickTheButcher wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
I would gladly walk those Centurions up the board.

Why?

They have a 36" threat range and can withstand a ton of firepower. They don't need the Land Raider. Oh and Tigurius is sick with Centurions. Divination giving rerolls to hit with that many dice works wonders.

As for the LC Centurions... If you have them tarpitted or they are in the place to be tarpitted, you deserve to lose. They should be in the back shooting down the board.

You should seriously play this book out before jumping to conclusions. Tau and Eldar are not unbeatable, you just have to use the right tools in the right place.

I've had the book as long as you and I see plenty of potential.

I don't know I'd walk them up the board (at least against Tau or Eldar) -- Eldar have enough to wipe a whole unit fairly easily (D-Scythes, TL Suncannons, etc...). But I agree with the rest of what you said. Proper placement and the limitless amount of combos from various chapter tactics and HQ's will effect how they are played.

I'm still liking the idea of taking them with the IH CT and placing them on a Skyshield Landing pad giving them a 2+/3+(cover)/4++/6+ FNP and IWND on the Sergeant. Give them Lascannons/ML and they could really be a threat.

I'm proxying a Marine list vs Eldar tomorrow, I'll let you know how it goes.

D scythes are too short a range for me to worry tbh. The Grav Cents threat range should counter that. The suncannon though is something that bothers me. I don't have the codex to hand, so I don't know it's stats.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
Are you talking 36" for the Grav cannons? If so, how? A couple squads of fire warriors will take them down in a couple turns. They are only slightly more durable than a terminator squad, maybe less when you take into account the lack of invul. What do you think will happen to them when 3 crisis suits with plasma drop in on them?

"If they get stuck in combat its my fault. Things with a 48" range should be easy to keep from getting stuck in."
Agreed but we're talking about 3 tl-las shots & 3 krak missile shots for 290, regardless of whether they get tarpitted or not.

On a side note: how about that awesome reclusiam command squad box set eh?

3 lascannons and 3 krak missile shots is pretty good when it comes on T5 2+ armor 2 wound bodies. And Split Fire is way awesome. I can fire one of those lascannons and krak missiles at something else if I need to. Pop 2 transports a turn, slam 2 MCs at a time, etc...

290 points is a steal. especially considering that a similarly equipped amount of Devestators cost more and don't have twin-linked.

Lack of Invuln isn't a big deal because they'll be sitting behind an Aegis line. Or on top of a Sky Shield for a 4+ invuln(and other stuff can be up there too)

And nobody in their right mind deep strikes anything without some sort of way to mitigate the scatter risks, in which case they're dropping way more than 290 points down.

For just ten more points at 300 even, you can get two units of Devs with 4 Lascannons each. 8 Lascannons will always beat out 3, even if twin-linked. You can still put them in an aegis for cover. Now granted, Heldrakes will ruin their day, but well, you have the Quad gun, which you can have the Sgt man with a Signum (BS5). And they're gonna come in no later than turn 2, which means you should still be able to casue some damage before they're in any trouble.

Query, do you have more than 5 dudes in each of those Dev squads? because if you don't you're going to immediately start losing fire power once you start taking casualties.

Martel732 wrote:
One of the problems goes back to the fact that the ML sucks hard. So, of course, the hurricane bolter can only be changed out to a ML!!! WTF??

ML don't suck. They're a pretty good weapon.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Centurions are okay, but with their new price cuts Devs and bikes can do more or less everything they can for cheaper and faster in the case of bikes...

This is true as well, but on the other side of the coin, Devastators will die a lot more easily than Centurions. Bikes are a different story, but not everyone wants to play them and they don't bring as much heavy firepower as devs or Centurions.

What makes it legal to ally space marines with space marines?

Martel732 wrote:
What makes it legal to ally space marines with space marines?

Pg 77 of the new dex...

 Fulcrum wrote:
Are you talking 36" for the Grav cannons? If so, how? A couple squads of fire warriors will take them down in a couple turns. They are only slightly more durable than a terminator squad, maybe less when you take into account the lack of invul. What do you think will happen to them when 3 crisis suits with plasma drop in on them?

"If they get stuck in combat its my fault. Things with a 48" range should be easy to keep from getting stuck in."
Agreed but we're talking about 3 tl-las shots & 3 krak missile shots for 290, regardless of whether they get tarpitted or not.

On a side note: how about that awesome reclusiam command squad box set eh?

You move the Cents 6", then fire 24" for a total of 30". My bad - been awake for 70+ hours.

I can agree to a point regarding the immense cost of the LC/ML Cents, but for that price you're getting a more accurate and survivable squad against some of the heinous units that can point click erase a normal Dev unit.

Your Plasma Suit DS is a valid tactic, but it won't kill three Cents in one turn of shooting. You might kill two, leaving one. That one guy is getting five shots, so he'll hit with three and probably wound with three... That's one dead Crisis suit. If the Crisis team is in range for assault (unlikely if it's played properly) that Centurion will rip through the remaining two suits. It's quite equal and remarkably close.

A lascannon/missile Cent would have killed two suits with his shooting instead of just one. both cause ID!

 Grey Templar wrote:
Query, do you have more than 5 dudes in each of those Dev squads? because if you don't you're going to immediately start losing fire power once you start taking casualties.

Martel732 wrote:
One of the problems goes back to the fact that the ML sucks hard. So, of course, the hurricane bolter can only be changed out to a ML!!! WTF??

ML don't suck. They're a pretty good weapon.

I stopped paying attention when he said ML suck.

Firstly I highly disagree that 290 for 3 tl las & 3 ml is a good deal in any platform.

 Mistress of minis wrote:
Auto rally and Hit & Run is pretty burly.

But I think alot of people are overlooking the Iron Hands getting It Will Not Die on Characters and Vehicles- the bonus on repair rolls for the techmarines is a cherry on top. Self healing vehicles and characters? O.o

But I really dont see Cents getting within 24" of a highly mobile MC like a Riptide very often. Theres better ways to sink the points that will do the job(and cost less $$) Theyre just too many points in one basket that doesnt have an Inv save(unless I missed something...) Its like they wanted to be Obliterators or Broadsides- but by the time you load them to be an equivalent, they cost a good bit more than either of those and arent as durable. I think the basic bolter loadout will be great for horde work-but past that the cost spikes. And they're big lumps of Grav-bait in thier own right.

I am impressed with the sneaky scout improvements- they got cheaper. And the Storm speeder is now only available as a dedicated transport for scouts(no waasting a FA slot) To go a step further- the Storm has a Cerebus launcher- which throws a large template 18" and causes Blind. And its pretty cheap itself. It still only carries 5 guys- but, Combat squads.

You wont see scout armies- but one or two squads for objective camping/grabbing with a storm wouldnt be a surprise.

Thats another thing- everyone but Centurions and Honor/Command squads can Combat Squad. That adds alot of verstatility in terms of both army list design and deployment for the various missions.

Also worth nting you can ally Space mariens with- space marines! As long as the Chapter tactics differ. So, mix and match accordingly

FYI Hit & run isn't a failed morale check so there's really no interaction with atsknf, you always act normally the next turn. The costs of everything is in line with DA, just no magic flags or divination(or good warlord traits, ug). I believe everything has always had combat squads, though it has been nerfed slightly in that you now must declare you are combat squading before the game, not when you jump out of your transport.

I do like the scouts+storm as a cheap, fast troop. I wish they would add like a generic veteran squad or something as a 3rd troop option. Maybe allow them to take 2 specials or something. The price increase on the basic razorback(ala DA) really stinks.

 Grey Templar wrote:
A lascannon/missile Cent would have killed two suits with his shooting instead of just one. both cause ID!

Was using Grav Cannons... Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
One of the problems goes back to the fact that the ML sucks hard. So, of course, the hurricane bolter can only be changed out to a ML!!! WTF??

ML don't suck. They're a pretty good weapon.

Yes, yes they do, they are in fact the marine version of Grenade Launchers.

Puscifer wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
A lascannon/missile Cent would have killed two suits with his shooting instead of just one. both cause ID!

Was using Grav Cannons... Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I know. I was just saying a Las/missile guy would have killed more than the Grav cannon loadout.

Puscifer wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
Are you talking 36" for the Grav cannons? If so, how? A couple squads of fire warriors will take them down in a couple turns. They are only slightly more durable than a terminator squad, maybe less when you take into account the lack of invul. What do you think will happen to them when 3 crisis suits with plasma drop in on them?

"If they get stuck in combat its my fault. Things with a 48" range should be easy to keep from getting stuck in."
Agreed but we're talking about 3 tl-las shots & 3 krak missile shots for 290, regardless of whether they get tarpitted or not.

On a side note: how about that awesome reclusiam command squad box set eh?

You move the Cents 6", then fire 24" for a total of 30". My bad - been awake for 70+ hours.

I can agree to a point regarding the immense cost of the LC/ML Cents, but for that price you're getting a more accurate and survivable squad against some of the heinous units that can point click erase a normal Dev unit.

Your Plasma Suit DS is a valid tactic, but it won't kill three Cents in one turn of shooting. You might kill two, leaving one. That one guy is getting five shots, so he'll hit with three and probably wound with three... That's one dead Crisis suit. If the Crisis team is in range for assault (unlikely if it's played properly) that Centurion will rip through the remaining two suits. It's quite equal and remarkably close.

Ok if you have grav weapons, they are just going to stay out of range, not drop in, & you will never be able to catch them due to the assault jump. If you have lc/ml, they will drop in & kill 2 possible, or 3 if they are in rf range.

A 5 man dev squad w/4 las is 150 in DA I think, +65 for the Libby. So 215 for 4x tl lc shot + libby, put them in a ruin for 4+ cover. Granted you only have 1 ablative wound at that price, but you can add more. Now your +1 las shot & -2 ml shots is a trade off .

Either way I think the only way cents are useable is stock with bolters & IF chap tacs. That being said dev squads are not any good either really for their points.

 Krellnus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
One of the problems goes back to the fact that the ML sucks hard. So, of course, the hurricane bolter can only be changed out to a ML!!! WTF??

ML don't suck. They're a pretty good weapon.

Yes, yes they do, they are in fact the marine version of Grenade Launchers.

Sure, you just keep telling yourself that.

Puscifer wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Query, do you have more than 5 dudes in each of those Dev squads? because if you don't you're going to immediately start losing fire power once you start taking casualties.

Martel732 wrote:
One of the problems goes back to the fact that the ML sucks hard. So, of course, the hurricane bolter can only be changed out to a ML!!! WTF??

ML don't suck. They're a pretty good weapon.

I stopped paying attention when he said ML suck.

Your loss. Because they do.

Puscifer wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Query, do you have more than 5 dudes in each of those Dev squads? because if you don't you're going to immediately start losing fire power once you start taking casualties.

Martel732 wrote:
One of the problems goes back to the fact that the ML sucks hard. So, of course, the hurricane bolter can only be changed out to a ML!!! WTF??

ML don't suck. They're a pretty good weapon.

I stopped paying attention when he said ML suck.

As did I.

Okay geniuses. Have I imagined MLs accomplishing absolutely nothing? What exactly are the good for other than IDing T4 models with 3+ armor?

Martel732 wrote:
Okay geniuses. Have I imagined MLs accomplishing absolutely nothing? What exactly are the good for other than IDing T4 models with 3+ armor?

Popping light vehicles, doing some good DMG vs hordes, annihilating Tyranid Warriors and things like them, causing significant DMG to MC...

I could go on.

How many ML are you using in your opinion?

One is useless... Three + in a unit is pretty good vs all of the above.

Killing transports and medium vehicles(AV12 or less)

Killing MCs that don't have 2+ armor(so not Riptides or Dreadknights)

They have the ability to be a small blast weapon. Never underestimate what getting 2-3 hits vs 1 hit can do against weak enemies like Guardsmen, Orks, or Nids. Even Space Marines aren't immune.

This flexibility is a very good thing.

Str8 is actually pretty good at killing any vehicle that isn't a Land Raider and doesn't have Quantum Shielding(which it can still penetrate)


Flexibility, Flexibility, Flexibility, and did I mention Flexibility?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Killing transports and medium vehicles(AV12 or less)

Killing MCs that don't have 2+ armor(so not Riptides or Dreadknights)

They have the ability to be a small blast weapon. Never underestimate what getting 2-3 hits vs 1 hit can do against weak enemies like Guardsmen, Orks, or Nids. Even Space Marines aren't immune.

This flexibility is a very good thing.

Str8 is actually pretty good at killing any vehicle that isn't a Land Raider and doesn't have Quantum Shielding(which it can still penetrate)


Flexibility, Flexibility, Flexibility, and did I mention Flexibility?

This... Everything in this!!!

You two also forgot that they're the only AA weapon our infantry can use besides a quadgun/icarus Lascannon

Martel732 wrote:
Okay geniuses. Have I imagined MLs accomplishing absolutely nothing? What exactly are the good for other than IDing T4 models with 3+ armor?

They can be good against light-med armor. Good against crisis suits, but a smart opponent will have a T5 2+ suit in the front to tank the wounds. Problem is they are pricey & mostly 1shot. What I don't get is why whirlwinds & typhoons are different entries

Actually, even 4 MLs is too slow at popping vehicles. Do the math. They're terrible, even against lowly AV 11. They are ROF 1 hull strippers. That's the slowest possible way to kill a vehicle in this game.

I can't count on MLs against MCs, becaue the MC might be a Riptide or something else with a 2+ save. Remember I'm going for TAC, not a tailored list. I need a reliable choice, not if-come-mabye.

Frag missiles are terrible against hordes because the small blast template is very inconsistent and mitigated by spacing of models. Also, they allow a 5+ armor save, so things like guardians and guardsmen in the open are able to save against them. Terrible.

I use 0 MLs. Because whenever I see them in action, they are fail. Epic fail. They accomplish none of the tasks they are purported to. And they usually take up a heavy slot. Unacceptable.

Typhoon launchers on speeders are much better, because they can maneuver for side shots on more valuable targets. But the speeders themselves have issues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They are "flexible" but do none of the jobs well enough to consider the job done. Flexibility is worthless without efficacy. If you try this scheme with the centurions, you will find out the hard way.

While I think Martel is often "overly negative," he's dead on about MLs. As a veteran Space Wolf player, I completely agree about MLs being nearly useless in a TAC build.

The only exception being a Typhoon squadron with Prescience. That's an outstanding unit, and sadly the best AA option in the DA codex.

The math doesn't lie. Just because GW sells the ML as a TAC weapon that is flexible, doesn't mean a thing. You have to look at what it is taking off the battlefield that you care about. And the answer to that is not much.

I agree with him that ML are not very good for their cost & as they are utilized with SM. Just that the weapon itself is ok, but more often than not you are shooting a single ML shot from a combat squad, that will inevitably miss its target, or bounce off, or be saved. We all have seen it happen over & over. So your 70pt combat squad has effectively become a carrier for your 1 ML shot. Not saying its useless, but not a superstar by any stretch of the imagination.

It's worse than that. Even massed up their damage is meh. Especially now that are only 5 pts less than a lascannon. For how they function, they should be 5 pts max, not 15.

Oh, and what exactly am I 'overly negative' about? Do I lie about how miserable the BA are? Do I lie about MLs? Do I lie about how the new codex is just a speed bump for the Tau/Eldar?

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, even 4 MLs is too slow at popping vehicles. Do the math. They're terrible, even against lowly AV 11. They are ROF 1 hull strippers. That's the slowest possible way to kill a vehicle in this game.

I can't count on MLs against MCs, becaue the MC might be a Riptide or something else with a 2+ save. Remember I'm going for TAC, not a tailored list. I need a reliable choice, not if-come-mabye.

Frag missiles are terrible against hordes because the small blast template is very inconsistent and mitigated by spacing of models. Also, they allow a 5+ armor save, so things like guardians and guardsmen in the open are able to save against them. Terrible.

I use 0 MLs. Because whenever I see them in action, they are fail. Epic fail. They accomplish none of the tasks they are purported to. And they usually take up a heavy slot. Unacceptable.

Typhoon launchers on speeders are much better, because they can maneuver for side shots on more valuable targets. But the speeders themselves have issues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They are "flexible" but do none of the jobs well enough to consider the job done. Flexibility is worthless without efficacy. If you try this scheme with the centurions, you will find out the hard way.

Ahhhh... Now we get to the bones of contention.

In a TAC list the ML has uses. But if your meta contains Riptides (which honestly, mine doesn't) then you're better off with LC or Grav Weapon.

As always Metas are subjective and making a TAC list is very difficult with all the variables. I don't see Riptides in either of the two Metas I play in. We have five-six Drakespam players, tons of MEQ, two Tau both without Riptide, an Iyanden player, a Guard player and a smattering of other things.

Going from experience of my Meta, Centurions will rip face.

 Fulcrum wrote:
I agree with him that ML are not very good for their cost & as they are utilized with SM. Just that the weapon itself is ok, but more often than not you are shooting a single ML shot from a combat squad, that will inevitably miss its target, or bounce off, or be saved. We all have seen it happen over & over. So your 70pt combat squad has effectively become a carrier for your 1 ML shot. Not saying its useless, but not a superstar by any stretch of the imagination.

But see, I run Space Wolves. I used to run them A LOT. Which means I own a ridiculous amount of ML Long Fangs, because I used to be that guy. Long Fangs are probably still the best ML delivery system in the game...and well, they're still meh.

Krak Missles do have targets they excel against. They're awesome against Nid MCs. No doubt. And if we lived in a world where Tau players were idiots and ran a bunch of Suits around without a Commander tanking; then yeah, they'd be good there too. But ultimately, they're a poor TAC choice, because that's about all they're good at killing. A Daemon MC is going to be so buffed up, and flying, if he ever exposes himself to your immobile ML squad, that it doesn't matter. Marines are either going to be in cover or in massive numbers (assuming you even see Marines). They actually suck against light vehicles compared to other options because of the low ROF and AP 3.

Frag Missles are useless against a good opponent because of spacing versus small blast. I can think of one time I got good value out of frag misles....against a squad of Pink Horrors that chose to shoot rather than run after a deep strike.........but that's a pretty rare example; haha

Puscifer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, even 4 MLs is too slow at popping vehicles. Do the math. They're terrible, even against lowly AV 11. They are ROF 1 hull strippers. That's the slowest possible way to kill a vehicle in this game.

I can't count on MLs against MCs, becaue the MC might be a Riptide or something else with a 2+ save. Remember I'm going for TAC, not a tailored list. I need a reliable choice, not if-come-mabye.

Frag missiles are terrible against hordes because the small blast template is very inconsistent and mitigated by spacing of models. Also, they allow a 5+ armor save, so things like guardians and guardsmen in the open are able to save against them. Terrible.

I use 0 MLs. Because whenever I see them in action, they are fail. Epic fail. They accomplish none of the tasks they are purported to. And they usually take up a heavy slot. Unacceptable.

Typhoon launchers on speeders are much better, because they can maneuver for side shots on more valuable targets. But the speeders themselves have issues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They are "flexible" but do none of the jobs well enough to consider the job done. Flexibility is worthless without efficacy. If you try this scheme with the centurions, you will find out the hard way.

Ahhhh... Now we get to the bones of contention.

In a TAC list the ML has uses. But if your meta contains Riptides (which honestly, mine doesn't) then you're better off with LC or Grav Weapon.

As always Metas are subjective and making a TAC list is very difficult with all the variables. I don't see Riptides in either of the two Metas I play in. We have five-six Drakespam players, tons of MEQ, two Tau both without Riptide, an Iyanden player, a Guard player and a smattering of other things.

Going from experience of my Meta, Centurions will rip face.

No, that's the whole thing about TAC. It's not TAC if there's a huge swath of enemy types it can't engage. And it's your *heavy support*. Not your troops or fast attack. I don't know if I'm gonna see riptides or not. But I'll tell you that staring down Vindicator spam sucks if you are shooting them in the front with wimpy ass krak rockets. They will instagib your list before you can glance them to death.


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anonymou5 wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
I agree with him that ML are not very good for their cost & as they are utilized with SM. Just that the weapon itself is ok, but more often than not you are shooting a single ML shot from a combat squad, that will inevitably miss its target, or bounce off, or be saved. We all have seen it happen over & over. So your 70pt combat squad has effectively become a carrier for your 1 ML shot. Not saying its useless, but not a superstar by any stretch of the imagination.

But see, I run Space Wolves. I used to run them A LOT. Which means I own a ridiculous amount of ML Long Fangs, because I used to be that guy. Long Fangs are probably still the best ML delivery system in the game...and well, they're still meh.

Krak Missles do have targets they excel against. They're awesome against Nid MCs. No doubt. And if we lived in a world where Tau players were idiots and ran a bunch of Suits around without a Commander tanking; then yeah, they'd be good there too. But ultimately, they're a poor TAC choice, because that's about all they're good at killing. A Daemon MC is going to be so buffed up, and flying, if he ever exposes himself to your immobile ML squad, that it doesn't matter. Marines are either going to be in cover or in massive numbers (assuming you even see Marines). They actually suck against light vehicles compared to other options because of the low ROF and AP 3.

Frag Missles are useless against a good opponent because of spacing versus small blast. I can think of one time I got good value out of frag misles....against a squad of Pink Horrors that chose to shoot rather than run after a deep strike.........but that's a pretty rare example; haha

This. Spoken by a space wolf player. My BA can't beat SW because of their grey hunters, not their lame MLs long fangs. They evaporate in a mist from fragnoughts if I so desire.

So, just two small things to add from a non-SM player.

Firstly. Centurions appear to be MoN obliterators. They cost about the same for basically the same stats. Their two weapons isn't as good as the pick-any weapon, but do get a couple of options that obliterators don't. In any case, they're roughly comparable.

Oblits are good, but not straight up awesome in my book. Can centurions deepstrike? Because if they can't then they're definitely worse. In any case, the idea of deploying obliterators on the table and then walking them forward and hoping they survive is absurd. I can't imagine it would be any different for centurions.

Also, as for the mention of a BT T4 horde, I agree that it's nothing special. Not only because of bolter banner DA, but also because of CSM. CSM can get 120 T4 models in just over 1500 points, but all of them have power armor, which, unless they changed that in the new codex, I was under the impression that BT didn't. Plus, CSM can take marks and close combat weapons + BP + bolters.

I'd like to see how 120 BT bodies do against 120 BP+CCW MoK CSM for roughly the same price.

I can't speak much to the rest of it, as my knowledge of SM has suddenly become obsolete. What it does appear like, though, is that the codex is relatively on-balance with DA and CSM. Just because it doesn't have the same power level as "difficulty level: sandbox" taudar doesn't mean that it's a bad codex, though. It means that it's a good codex, and that the tau codex is bad.

Having the new SM codex compete with tau for which army requires the least effort to use would make the game overall a worse one, and I'm glad that they appear to have resisted the temptation.

Martel732 wrote:
The math doesn't lie. Just because GW sells the ML as a TAC weapon that is flexible, doesn't mean a thing. You have to look at what it is taking off the battlefield that you care about. And the answer to that is not much.

Oh, I don't bother with ML in Tactical Squads.

I either go with HB, PC or MM, depending on the army I'd be facing or the job I want them to do, which most of the time is infantry killing.

Also, counting on Tau players to not have riptides is a horrible, horrible plan.

No offense but that sounds like a pretty small limited meta. There's a couple hundred players in my area & since tau & eldar have come out 60%ish have switched to 1 of those 2(or just brought out their old armies & bought a few new models). Power armor is about as common as nids, chaos, or IG. Say 1 in 5 players or so.

I'll have to have a go at writing a TAC list from the new Dex and get back to you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't count on the tau players not having them. I know they own them, they choose not to field them.

I guarantee it will be better without MLs. Unless they are on speeders. Do the math on them massed in groups of four. It's depressing. Oh and flakk missiles? By the time you shoot donw the helldrake with them, your army is barbequed.

This is a game about time, efficiency and efficacy. The ML is too slow at its job to be effective.

 Fulcrum wrote:
No offense but that sounds like a pretty small limited meta. There's a couple hundred players in my area & since tau & eldar have come out 60%ish have switched to 1 of those 2(or just brought out their old armies & bought a few new models). Power armor is about as common as nids, chaos, or IG. Say 1 in 5 players or so.

I play in two metas, roughly 100 miles apart from each other and they have embraced the Drakespam more than any other army.

I've got a good record against Drakespam, but i lack experience in a TAC environment.

I think we have 40 players across the two metas I play in.

Not great, but we do have one, possibly two very experienced tourney players (both of them Drakespam players).

They top ten everywhere they play.

I'd kill for a more varied Meta though.

 Ailaros wrote:
So, just two small things to add from a non-SM player.

Firstly. Centurions appear to be MoN obliterators. They cost about the same for basically the same stats. Their two weapons isn't as good as the pick-any weapon, but do get a couple of options that obliterators don't. In any case, they're roughly comparable.

Oblits are good, but not straight up awesome in my book. Can centurions deepstrike? Because if they can't then they're definitely worse. In any case, the idea of deploying obliterators on the table and then walking them forward and hoping they survive is absurd. I can't imagine it would be any different for centurions.

Also, as for the mention of a BT T4 horde, I agree that it's nothing special. Not only because of bolter banner DA, but also because of CSM. CSM can get 120 T4 models in just over 1500 points, but all of them have power armor, which, unless they changed that in the new codex, I was under the impression that BT didn't. Plus, CSM can take marks and close combat weapons + BP + bolters.

I'd like to see how 120 BT bodies do against 120 BP+CCW MoK CSM for roughly the same price.

I can't speak much to the rest of it, as my knowledge of SM has suddenly become obsolete. What it does appear like, though, is that the codex is relatively on-balance with DA and CSM. Just because it doesn't have the same power level as "difficulty level: sandbox" taudar doesn't mean that it's a bad codex, though. It means that it's a good codex, and that the tau codex is bad.

Having the new SM codex compete with tau for which army requires the least effort to use would make the game overall a worse one, and I'm glad that they appear to have resisted the temptation.

Sorry, not good enough. I don't pour in time and effort and $$ to be humiliated by Tau/Eldars through *not fault of my own*. The Tau codex is the one that is "good", because your judgments about "difficulty: sandbox" doesn't help the W-L column at the end of the day. Compared to a company like Blizzard, GW is really pathetic.

"Firstly. Centurions appear to be MoN obliterators. They cost about the same for basically the same stats. Their two weapons isn't as good as the pick-any weapon, but do get a couple of options that obliterators don't. In any case, they're roughly comparable." 60pts base w/bolters, 80 with anything useful. No invul.

"Oblits are good, but not straight up awesome in my book. Can centurions deepstrike? Because if they can't then they're definitely worse. In any case, the idea of deploying obliterators on the table and then walking them forward and hoping they survive is absurd. I can't imagine it would be any different for centurions."
No deep strike, only transport option is LR, slow & purposeful(like oblits).


"Also, as for the mention of a BT T4 horde, I agree that it's nothing special. Not only because of bolter banner DA, but also because of CSM. CSM can get 120 T4 models in just over 1500 points, but all of them have power armor, which, unless they changed that in the new codex, I was under the impression that BT didn't. Plus, CSM can take marks and close combat weapons + BP + bolters."
For BT it would be 50/50 3+/4+, also 50% WS/bs 3, but with atsknf.

As a decade long avid Khorne player I didn't like the chaos dex either. I traded my army. I don't like oblits, heldrakes, or cultists :(

 Krellnus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
One of the problems goes back to the fact that the ML sucks hard. So, of course, the hurricane bolter can only be changed out to a ML!!! WTF??

ML don't suck. They're a pretty good weapon.

Yes, yes they do, they are in fact the marine version of Grenade Launchers.

So a weapon that can insta pop hq's and most tanks or is effective against swarm armies sucks? Huh...

They can't pop most tanks. Trying reading the thread. And small blasts suck.

No need for your attitude Martel. Thats what got the last thread closed.

I don't typically use ML's bar a 4x ML squad of devs in the old dex.

Most of the time in Tac squads I'm running MM or LC

Now -- that being said, with the new codex and point costs, why bring a missile launcher at all (unless you are going for Flakk Missiles)? The lascannon and plasma cannon are only 5 points more, and seem like they are much better TAC options. LC has the AP2 and high str. shot. The PC has AP2 and handles all types of infantry and even some light armor.

This is intended to be a legitimate question -- what does the ML bring that makes it more efficient than the other options in the new dex? When they were free, I could see them being a very solid option, but now you have to pay for them, and if I'm going to invest point, why not go the 5 more points to get something that appears to be better?

I'm not trying to get the thread locked. But I've had this conversation about MLs over and over. The math says they suck. Especially with the new price tag.

This concept is important when analyzing the new Centurions. Since half their firepower comes from a weapon that is really not effective in 6th edition, I have to question whether these models are good or not.

I don't think any of the new units are must haves.


Assault Centurions are slow, and I really don't see any reason to use them over TH/SS Terminators which have an option of DSing, aren't S&P, and have an invuln save to help against the CC monsters they can go up against as well as the anti-tank weapons that could be pointed their way . Dev Centurions are somewhat more usable, and if you can stick them in bolstered ruins or behind an Aegis, they have a bit more survivability. Both also run into the problem of being expensive...both in points and model cost.

Both the Stalker and Hunter are lacking Interceptor, which is severely missed. Neither is going to help all that much against the biggest problem unit for Space Marines, which are Helldrakes. I also think Hunters are too gimmicky, and the Savant Lock rule relies on opponents not paying attention. On the other hand, Stalkers can find use against Tau, Eldar, and Necrons since all 3 use skimmers (and some jetbikes) extensively, and twin-linked 4 shot autocannons (or two 4 shot autocannons firing at separate targets at BS2) can be some use against them.

Of course, the big problem with selecting any of the new Heavy Support units is the fact that Thunderfires actually got buffed. Barrage makes them much easier to hide and I'm having trouble justifying not taking at least 2.

 NickTheButcher wrote:
I don't typically use ML's bar a 4x ML squad of devs in the old dex.

Most of the time in Tac squads I'm running MM or LC

Now -- that being said, with the new codex and point costs, why bring a missile launcher at all (unless you are going for Flakk Missiles)? The lascannon and plasma cannon are only 5 points more, and seem like they are much better TAC options. LC has the AP2 and high str. shot. The PC has AP2 and handles all types of infantry and even some light armor.

This is intended to be a legitimate question -- what does the ML bring that makes it more efficient than the other options in the new dex?

Thank you for using logic and not swallowing the old wisdom of MLs being the default TAC choice. True story: they weren't good in 5th, either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nobody wrote:
I don't think any of the new units are must haves.


Assault Centurions are slow, and I really don't see any reason to use them over TH/SS Terminators which have an option of DSing, aren't S&P, and have an invuln save to help against the CC monsters they can go up against as well as the anti-tank weapons that could be pointed their way . Dev Centurions are somewhat more usable, and if you can stick them in bolstered ruins or behind an Aegis, they have a bit more survivability. Both also run into the problem of being expensive...both in points and model cost.

Both the Stalker and Hunter are lacking Interceptor, which is severely missed. Neither is going to help all that much against the biggest problem unit for Space Marines, which are Helldrakes. I also think Hunters are too gimmicky, and the Savant Lock rule relies on opponents not paying attention. On the other hand, Stalkers can find use against Tau, Eldar, and Necrons since all 3 use skimmers (and some jetbikes) extensively, and twin-linked 4 shot autocannons (or two 4 shot autocannons firing at separate targets at BS2) can be some use against them.

Of course, the big problem with selecting any of the new Heavy Support units is the fact that Thunderfires actually got buffed. Barrage makes them much easier to hide and I'm having trouble justifying not taking at least 2.

The Hunter and Stalker needed to be upgrades to a Rhino, not heavy support choices.

Fulcrum wrote:No invul. No deep strike,

Oh wow, then definitely worse.

Did they make preds cheaper like they did in the other power armor codices of late? Because if that's the case...

Fulcrum wrote:For BT it would be 50/50 3+/4+, also 50% WS/bs 3, but with atsknf.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

It would actually be kind of interesting to see a series of games played between CSM, BT, and DA, all with power-armor-heavy armies.

Martel732 wrote: I don't pour in time and effort and $$ to be humiliated by Tau/Eldars through *not fault of my own*. The Tau codex is the one that is "good", because your judgments about "difficulty: sandbox" doesn't help the W-L column at the end of the day.

Umm...

You're talking about being humiliated. You're talking about impoverishing yourself. You're talking about fundamental unfairness and inequality. You're talking about winning being the only thing that matters.

... about a dice game with toy soldiers.

You appear to be suffering a great deal of negative emotion about something that was never designed to be taken so seriously. Your first steps towards healing all of this hurt and anger might involve some time spent seriously reconsidering some of your life choices, at least with regard to 40k.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not trying to get the thread locked. But I've had this conversation about MLs over and over. The math says they suck. Especially with the new price tag.

This concept is important when analyzing the new Centurions. Since half their firepower comes from a weapon that is really not effective in 6th edition, I have to question whether these models are good or not.

To be fair I'd rather pay the points to have a ML over the Hurricane Bolters. I'd also argue that the ML or Hurricane bolters aren't half the firepower of the Centurion (at least the Grav-Cannon version).

Soooo, back to the original title for the post....

Since I live in the boondocks I haven't gotten my 'dex yet, but it seems like the Salamanders got a nice little buff. I like the Flamecraft USR and Vulkan's on-going TL MM. I'm bummed he lost the digital weapons (if he did in fact). It seems like the characters choosing a MC weapon is a pretty big buff over the old TH/SS and more in keeping with the fluff. Thoughts on the salamanders guys? Other than "they suck" unless you must be parsimonious.... try a haiku...

I think you are adding a lot into my statement. It's just a matter of choosing to spend time and $$ on this or play a game where the devs give a $%^^& like Starcraft.

I don't mind losing at all, but I like the loss to be mainly a function of my choices vs those of my opponent. Not Eldar and Tau looking in my general direction and me picking all my marines up. This is getting too reminiscent of 2nd edition for me.

 doktor_g wrote:
Soooo, back to the original title for the post....

Since I live in the boondocks I haven't gotten my 'dex yet, but it seems like the Salamanders got a nice little buff. I like the Flamecraft USR and Vulkan's on-going TL MM. I'm bummed he lost the digital weapons (if he did in fact). It seems like the characters choosing a MC weapon is a pretty big buff over the old TH/SS and more in keeping with the fluff. Thoughts on the salamanders guys? Other than "they suck" unless you must be parsimonious.... try a haiku...

Well we've already found a possible cheese unit for Salamanders regarding ASM, read here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/550654.page

Vulcan didn't loose digital weapons btw.

And yes, I'm really looking forward to taking Devs with 4 MM in a drop pod, only comes out to 145 points! With Vulcan Twin-Linking them even fliers will think twice about getting too close...

Martel732 wrote:
They can't pop most tanks. Trying reading the thread. And small blasts suck.

I did. ML suck for you so OK. They don't for me. Are there better options? Sure.

First game I'm playing against Nidzilla. With ml's I can wound the MC's and blast the gants.

Then the next game im playing against FMC demons. Sure some of them got iron arm. But I bet all 3-4 DP's didn't. If I kill one dp then they made there points back.

Wraithwing next game? Wraiths with fail that 3++ and die to one missle. If they loose 2-3 wraiths in the two turns you have before an assault they paid for their points. When your AA kills the scythes then you can murder the warriors when they come on the table.

IG next? Chimeras dead. Plasma vets when they come out are packed nicely for a blast from the ml's

Wave serpent spam? OK that they do have a hard time against. But s8 still glances on a 4 and pens on a 5-6.

This is all assuming you are not taking just one ml. Cause in that case yea their not so good.

As for the codex. Seems pretty good to me. Iron hands and white scars have the best chapter tactics. Tigurius, Emperors champ seems really good. Centurions are meh. They would better if they could deepstrike or had a invuln. Cheaper marines are good. Grav depends on your own meta. I'd give it a 8 out a 10.

 doktor_g wrote:
Soooo, back to the original title for the post....

Since I live in the boondocks I haven't gotten my 'dex yet, but it seems like the Salamanders got a nice little buff. I like the Flamecraft USR and Vulkan's on-going TL MM. I'm bummed he lost the digital weapons (if he did in fact). It seems like the characters choosing a MC weapon is a pretty big buff over the old TH/SS and more in keeping with the fluff. Thoughts on the salamanders guys? Other than "they suck" unless you must be parsimonious.... try a haiku...

Vulkan did not lose the Digital Weapons, they are now incorporated into the Gauntlet of the Forge.

As a Salamanders player, I'm rather happy with the chapter tactics.

See this thread for my thoughts on predators specifically & SM vehicles in general:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/549805.page#6026936

How awesome would speeders be if they were AV11 3HP. There were so many opportunities to make SM viable, but they dropped the ball.

I really should have titled this thread "New SM codex: still no answers for Tau & Eldar."

nobody wrote:

 doktor_g wrote:
Soooo, back to the original title for the post....

Since I live in the boondocks I haven't gotten my 'dex yet, but it seems like the Salamanders got a nice little buff. I like the Flamecraft USR and Vulkan's on-going TL MM. I'm bummed he lost the digital weapons (if he did in fact). It seems like the characters choosing a MC weapon is a pretty big buff over the old TH/SS and more in keeping with the fluff. Thoughts on the salamanders guys? Other than "they suck" unless you must be parsimonious.... try a haiku...

Vulkan did not lose the Digital Weapons, they are now incorporated into the Gauntlet of the Forge.

As a Salamanders player, I'm rather happy with the chapter tactics.

Same here. Salamanders didn't really lose much, and where they lost, they gained something that makes up for it. Being able to ally from the codex itself also gives us the ability to add in units that wouldn't normally benefit from our CT.

 spacewolved wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They can't pop most tanks. Trying reading the thread. And small blasts suck.

I did. ML suck for you so OK. They don't for me. Are there better options? Sure.

First game I'm playing against Nidzilla. With ml's I can wound the MC's and blast the gants.

Then the next game im playing against FMC demons. Sure some of them got iron arm. But I bet all 3-4 DP's didn't. If I kill one dp then they made there points back.

Wraithwing next game? Wraiths with fail that 3++ and die to one missle. If they loose 2-3 wraiths in the two turns you have before an assault they paid for their points. When your AA kills the scythes then you can murder the warriors when they come on the table.

IG next? Chimeras dead. Plasma vets when they come out are packed nicely for a blast from the ml's

Wave serpent spam? OK that they do have a hard time against. But s8 still glances on a 4 and pens on a 5-6.

This is all assuming you are not taking just one ml. Cause in that case yea their not so good.

You are cherry picking your data.

Do the math on MLs vs Chimeras. You likely got very lucky in that game.

It's not about making points back. It's about heavy support engaging targets like Riptides, AV 13, etc.

Besides, in all your examples lascannons would do better and kill 2+ armor targets to boot.


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 Fulcrum wrote:
See this thread for my thoughts on predators specifically & SM vehicles in general:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/549805.page#6026936

How awesome would speeders be if they were AV11 3HP. There were so many opportunities to make SM viable, but they dropped the ball.

I really should have titled this thread "New SM codex: still no answers for Tau & Eldar."

Yup, pretty much. I hate it. I don't want it to be true. But it is.

Agreed on Salamanders. Still the best build & very viable. They actually got a few buffs with reroll flame armor saves & being able to master craft any characters weapon. Th/Ss termies got nerfed, that's about it.

Stalkers help give some answers to both race's skimmers.

LotD give you a way of cracking both factions gunlines by being able to DS (rerolling scatter), ignoring cover saves, being fearless, and having what's effectively a storm shield on each model to help them survive the interceptor fire from Riptides. Back them up with Thunderfire cannons who are using Barrage to hide behind buildings and drop cover ignoring rounds.

Grav weapons and sternguard can do ugly things to Wraithknights and Riptides.

nobody wrote:
Stalkers help give some answers to both race's skimmers.

LotD give you a way of cracking both factions gunlines by being able to DS (rerolling scatter), ignoring cover saves, being fearless, and having what's effectively a storm shield on each model to help them survive the interceptor fire from Riptides. Back them up with Thunderfire cannons who are using Barrage to hide behind buildings and drop cover ignoring rounds.

Grav weapons and sternguard can do ugly things to Wraithknights and Riptides.

At what cost? Marines are too expensive to be suicide troops. I have busted marine player after marine player dropping sternguard in on my BA. They do their damage, and then I cut them to ribbons. And the BA are BAD codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not trying to get the thread locked. But I've had this conversation about MLs over and over. The math says they suck. Especially with the new price tag.

This concept is important when analyzing the new Centurions. Since half their firepower comes from a weapon that is really not effective in 6th edition, I have to question whether these models are good or not.

To be fair I'd rather pay the points to have a ML over the Hurricane Bolters. I'd also argue that the ML or Hurricane bolters aren't half the firepower of the Centurion (at least the Grav-Cannon version).

Agreed, but the range on the grav thingie is killer. A smart player will avoid their area or melt them before they move in. They really aren't that hard to kill, especially for Eldar.

 Fulcrum wrote:
Agreed on Salamanders. Still the best build & very viable. They actually got a few buffs with reroll flame armor saves & being able to master craft any characters weapon. Th/Ss termies got nerfed, that's about it.

And the way I look at the TH/SS Terminator nerf, is that it wasn't even that impacting since they are being used less on the table anyway due to points increase and Eldar.

 Fulcrum wrote:
See this thread for my thoughts on predators specifically & SM vehicles in general:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/549805.page#6026936

How awesome would speeders be if they were AV11 3HP. There were so many opportunities to make SM viable, but they dropped the ball.

I really should have titled this thread "New SM codex: still no answers for Tau & Eldar."

What problems are you having with Tau or Eldar? I've found that Marines have the flexibility to deal with both of these armies quite effectively.

The fact that they have shot everything to death in about 3-4 turns. Flexibility means nothing when you are dead.

 Fulcrum wrote:
See this thread for my thoughts on predators specifically & SM vehicles in general:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/549805.page#6026936

How awesome would speeders be if they were AV11 3HP. There were so many opportunities to make SM viable, but they dropped the ball.

I really should have titled this thread "New SM codex: still no answers for Tau & Eldar."

No you should have titled it "I'm gonna bitch and moan about a codex the day it comes out, and then a month later when all the good builds I was too lazy/angry/butthurt to discover for myself are posted, I'm then gonna change my tune and say 6th SM is da best codex ever"

It happened with Tau, with Eldar, with DA, with CD, even with CSM. Every. Single. Codex.

It won't happen with this one. I feel safe in saying this because it is so close to the old codex.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
See this thread for my thoughts on predators specifically & SM vehicles in general:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/549805.page#6026936

How awesome would speeders be if they were AV11 3HP. There were so many opportunities to make SM viable, but they dropped the ball.

I really should have titled this thread "New SM codex: still no answers for Tau & Eldar."

What problems are you having with Tau or Eldar? I've found that Marines have the flexibility to deal with both of these armies quite effectively.

So what are your strategies in beating 7 crisis suits, 14 drones, farsight, & shadowsun all tl, ignore cover, tank hunter, etc.? Or 4 riptides with IC's tanking? Or a pulse bomb putting out hundreds of S5 shots with concentric overlapping rings of over watch coverage? Or 6 wave serpents who deploy with their rear on the table edge filled with rending troops & guarded by a wraith knight who hop around at 60" range? Or jetseer council with a re-rollable 2++? Or a combination of these? It sounds like you have it figured out. Of course this is all rhetorical. Please don't answer it here, but feel free to do so in another thread & point me to it.

There are no reliable strategies for beating those builds in this codex. I don't know if others will admit it yet, but this codex is too similar to the old one.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
See this thread for my thoughts on predators specifically & SM vehicles in general:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/549805.page#6026936

How awesome would speeders be if they were AV11 3HP. There were so many opportunities to make SM viable, but they dropped the ball.

I really should have titled this thread "New SM codex: still no answers for Tau & Eldar."

No you should have titled it "I'm gonna bitch and moan about a codex the day it comes out, and then a month later when all the good builds I was too lazy/angry/butthurt to discover for myself are posted, I'm then gonna change my tune and say 6th SM is da best codex ever"

It happened with Tau, with Eldar, with DA, with CD, even with CSM. Every. Single. Codex.

As far as I can see the only truly viable competitive list remains the same, salamanders. Others may be decent but, like CSM & DA, it has maybe 1-2 actual competitive builds, any of which cannot stand up to a skilled player using Tau or Eldar. Daemons are a wildcard & have some nasty varieties. As for what has happened in the past I can't speak to it because I really only just started posting here. So tell me what is it you have against me specifically since you haven't actually offered anything related to the actual subject?

So now you're reported grandpa.

No. There is Stormraven spam. It's horrible and trite, but it works.

Never tried it but i suppose long as you don't load them up with expensive units that die horribly when they fall down & go boom. Though a Tau list with skyfire& interceptor on a few things could still ruin your day.

That's true. I've pointed out the flaws to the list, but it definitely works well in many tournaments.

4 Stormravens takes even the Tau a while to shoot down.

Ah so the whiners are already here.

Martel, I think it's about time you considered not playing until 7e because clearly this game is going to give you a heart attack.

 Kain wrote:
Ah so the whiners are already here.

Then there's no need for you to participate.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Ah so the whiners are already here.

Then there's no need for you to participate.

No seriously, take a break and if you want to play 40k just play Dawn of War or Space Marine while you relax and find a new hobby until 7e comes out or something. You're clearly getting *much* too upset about a game meant pretty much solely for casual play. Seriously, you're going to have an aneurysm.

 Kain wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Ah so the whiners are already here.

Then there's no need for you to participate.

No seriously, take a break and if you want to play 40k just play Dawn of War or Space Marine while you relax and find a new hobby until 7e comes out or something. You're clearly getting *much* too upset about a game meant pretty much solely for casual play. Seriously, you're going to have an aneurysm.

No, I have my research to give me one of those.

I really like GW's models, but it's just really frustrating to paint the stuff and then go to a physical game store and lose because "balance" is a forbidden word at GW. It's just math. GW doesn't try at all.

No sane person can think that the Vendetta or the Wave Serpent are appropriately priced, just for obvious examples.

 Kain wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Ah so the whiners are already here.

Then there's no need for you to participate.

No seriously, take a break and if you want to play 40k just play Dawn of War or Space Marine while you relax and find a new hobby until 7e comes out or something. You're clearly getting *much* too upset about a game meant pretty much solely for casual play. Seriously, you're going to have an aneurysm.

What is with you guys? Seriously if you have some insight into some tactics that could be good by all means point them out. Otherwise you guys are the ones spamming & flaming a legitimate discussion. You don't need to post here if you have nothing to add to the discussion.

 Fulcrum wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Ah so the whiners are already here.

Then there's no need for you to participate.

No seriously, take a break and if you want to play 40k just play Dawn of War or Space Marine while you relax and find a new hobby until 7e comes out or something. You're clearly getting *much* too upset about a game meant pretty much solely for casual play. Seriously, you're going to have an aneurysm.

What is with you guys? Seriously if you have some insight into some tactics that could be good by all means point them out. Otherwise you guys are the ones spamming & flaming a legitimate discussion. You don't need to post here if you have nothing to add to the discussion.

Iron Hands in my opinion seem like the best fit for my play style of invincible walls of armor, although these days I primarily play with the Siege Assault Vanguard.

A Spartan Assault tank with IWND makes me very happy, and I can afford to pay for a squad of assault termies to fit in it and obliterate anything I choose.

Of course that does make me have to choose between Termies in a SAT or Contemptors, which are also very much excellent.

But the reason why I tease Martel is that he always seems to have his jimmies rustled.

I'm also a Browns fan. I have decades of practice. And the absolute raping the BA took in 6th is just really hard to get over.

Yes adding FW into the discussion makes MEQ much better in so many ways & there is probably the key to making more viable against the top dawgs. Contemptors are the bees knees. Iron Hands are intriguing, possibly Ironclads with IWND.

Yeah, FW is really hit or miss on whether its allowed. I don't own any FW, because BA kinda got hosed there, too. And $$.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm also a Browns fan. I have decades of practice. And the absolute raping the BA took in 6th is just really hard to get over.

As I am neither American nor show interest in spectator sports your analogy went over my head.

5e was MeQ and Guard all day every day.

6e is and likely will remain Xenos and Chaos* all day every day.

*Daemons more so than CSMs.

It's a fairly long standing flip flop between editions meant to make you look into other armies.

5e was a terrible, terrible time for my Tyranids and an even worse one for the Eldar and Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fulcrum wrote:
Yes adding FW into the discussion makes MEQ much better in so many ways & there is probably the key to making more viable against the top dawgs. Contemptors are the bees knees. Iron Hands are intriguing, possibly Ironclads with IWND.

I'm still waiting for the updates to the Space Marine stuff in keeping with the new edition.

SAV vehicle spam with IWND makes me a very happy camper.

The Guard haven't gone anywhere in 6th really. They still have mass firepower.

I guess I'm still kinda bitter over 2nd edition, and don't want to be back in that position.

Martel732 wrote:
The Guard haven't gone anywhere in 6th really. They still have mass firepower.

I guess I'm still kinda bitter over 2nd edition, and don't want to be back in that position.

The guard isn't in the top three anymore like it once was. It may not have gotten worse but it faces stiff competition from the Necrons, Tau, Eldar, and Daemons.

It's still a good book, but it's showing it's age.

Maybe not, but the one IG vs Eldar game I saw was a hell of a lot closer than any game I've had against Eldar. Well, except the one where the Eldar guy didn't bubble wrap properly and I was playing with drop pods.

At least IG aren't paying for T4 they don't get to benefit from against Eldar.

If you look at the hoops the marines have to jump through to field S6 shooting and compare it to how Eldar get out of bed and trip over it. Yeah..........

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe not, but the one IG vs Eldar game I saw was a hell of a lot closer than any game I've had against Eldar. Well, except the one where the Eldar guy didn't bubble wrap properly and I was playing with drop pods.

Generally, Guard vs Tau devolves into the most boring gunline fight you've ever seen. There's just no life or joy in the match up.

Guard vs Necrons is a question of whether the guard can stop the Necrons from getting into the 24'-12' miracle mile, and if they can't stop them from getting there in force it usually gets ugly.

Guard vs Daemons is again, stopping the Daemons from getting into charge range, which can be quite difficult given the random dice shenanigans they can pull off.

Guard vs Eldar is proving to be a PITA because the Guard doesn't have many ways to bring down Wraith Knights with any speed as they pop all our vehicles while D-scythe wraithguards obliterate hordes.

 Kain wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe not, but the one IG vs Eldar game I saw was a hell of a lot closer than any game I've had against Eldar. Well, except the one where the Eldar guy didn't bubble wrap properly and I was playing with drop pods.

Generally, Guard vs Tau devolves into the most boring gunline fight you've ever seen. There's just no life or joy in the match up.

Guard vs Necrons is a question of whether the guard can stop the Necrons from getting into the 24'-12' miracle mile, and if they can't stop them from getting there in force it usually gets ugly.

Guard vs Daemons is again, stopping the Daemons from getting into charge range, which can be quite difficult given the random dice shenanigans they can pull off.

Guard vs Eldar is proving to be a PITA because the Guard doesn't have many ways to bring down Wraith Knights with any speed as they pop all our vehicles while D-scythe wraithguards obliterate hordes.

I've heard huge amounts of cheap lascannons might help with that. Heck, I've even saw Wave Serpents die that game because the IG had enough autocannons to bring them down. It took a *lot* of shots. That's why I laugh about marine players and their 4X MLs. Might as well as pop guns.

Again, if the Hunter and Stalker were Rhino upgrades, I'd feel like the marines got something substantial.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe not, but the one IG vs Eldar game I saw was a hell of a lot closer than any game I've had against Eldar. Well, except the one where the Eldar guy didn't bubble wrap properly and I was playing with drop pods.

Generally, Guard vs Tau devolves into the most boring gunline fight you've ever seen. There's just no life or joy in the match up.

Guard vs Necrons is a question of whether the guard can stop the Necrons from getting into the 24'-12' miracle mile, and if they can't stop them from getting there in force it usually gets ugly.

Guard vs Daemons is again, stopping the Daemons from getting into charge range, which can be quite difficult given the random dice shenanigans they can pull off.

Guard vs Eldar is proving to be a PITA because the Guard doesn't have many ways to bring down Wraith Knights with any speed as they pop all our vehicles while D-scythe wraithguards obliterate hordes.

I've heard huge amounts of cheap lascannons might help with that. Heck, I've even saw Wave Serpents die that game because the IG had enough autocannons to bring them down. It took a *lot* of shots. That's why I laugh about marine players and their 4X MLs. Might as well as pop guns.

My wife has a "Sweep and stay" list where Wraith knights stand there being invincible killing any heavy armor I have, then Wave serpents come in, killing all my medium armor before dropping off D-scythe wraithguard to wipe away infantry while Axe and shield wraithguard come in to plop themselves into objectives and give a hearty "come at me bro." And flying spaghetti monster help you if the warlocks accompanying them buffs their armor.

Aircraft are dealt with via Nightwings.

It certainly works best in our large games.

Oh I'm sure. I didn't see any wraithguard in the battle I was watching.

I'm not sure what the hell my marines would do against the same list other than just die faster.

Did the TFC change?

 doktor_g wrote:
Did the TFC change?

It's even better now.

It has barrage now. For that extra bit of "Feth you" to people hiding behind aegis defense lines.

I just had a conversation with a close friend who is a veteran tourney player and he agrees with you, Martel, regarding MLs... To some extent.

In the old Dex he suggests that the ML was good for anti horde, but with the new Dex, PC is just sooooo much better for the minor increase in PTS.

LC on the other hand are also better in this Dex, also due to the points and tank busting capability.

As for Centurions... He feels that they have a place vs some armies and believes that they are a unit that should be taken according to what CT you are using and your play style.

Great in an IH list, but not spectacular in anything else really.

He says that they are pricey, but useable and... This is the kicker... If you must take them in Devastators, take the ML. You get to shoot twice and it's a much higher quality of shot than the Hurricane Bolters.

He suggests taking no more than a three man squad and that you should either go all LC/ML or GC/GA and ML.

As for AssCents... They are not good at all.

One thing he does not believe though is that this codex is boned vs Eldar or Tau and that CSM is actually winnable now. He plays (and BA) and knows what he's talking about there.

Tau and Eldar seem to be this armies biggest Achilles heels, but it is a match up that CAN be won.

TFC still can't hit air units then?

 doktor_g wrote:
TFC still can't hit air units then?

No, but they are going to devastate anyone camping directional cover and snipe out characters from a unit.

And it's master crafted w Vulkan!... That can't be right.

 doktor_g wrote:
And it's master crafted w Vulkan!... That can't be right.

The TFC? No. Vulkan makes all Melta weapons (aside from bombs) in his detachment Master Crafted -- and that is also only if he is your warlord.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
So, just two small things to add from a non-SM player.

Firstly. Centurions appear to be MoN obliterators. They cost about the same for basically the same stats. Their two weapons isn't as good as the pick-any weapon, but do get a couple of options that obliterators don't. In any case, they're roughly comparable.

Oblits are good, but not straight up awesome in my book. Can centurions deepstrike? Because if they can't then they're definitely worse. In any case, the idea of deploying obliterators on the table and then walking them forward and hoping they survive is absurd. I can't imagine it would be any different for centurions.

Also, as for the mention of a BT T4 horde, I agree that it's nothing special. Not only because of bolter banner DA, but also because of CSM. CSM can get 120 T4 models in just over 1500 points, but all of them have power armor, which, unless they changed that in the new codex, I was under the impression that BT didn't. Plus, CSM can take marks and close combat weapons + BP + bolters.

I'd like to see how 120 BT bodies do against 120 BP+CCW MoK CSM for roughly the same price.

I can't speak much to the rest of it, as my knowledge of SM has suddenly become obsolete. What it does appear like, though, is that the codex is relatively on-balance with DA and CSM. Just because it doesn't have the same power level as "difficulty level: sandbox" taudar doesn't mean that it's a bad codex, though. It means that it's a good codex, and that the tau codex is bad.

Having the new SM codex compete with tau for which army requires the least effort to use would make the game overall a worse one, and I'm glad that they appear to have resisted the temptation.

Sorry, not good enough. I don't pour in time and effort and $$ to be humiliated by Tau/Eldars through *not fault of my own*. The Tau codex is the one that is "good", because your judgments about "difficulty: sandbox" doesn't help the W-L column at the end of the day. Compared to a company like Blizzard, GW is really pathetic.

You sound really angry, Martel. If GW are so pathetic stop wasting time commenting on their games, sell your stuff and move on. It's only a game.

I don't think the 24" range on Centurions is the end of the world. A 250 point squad with a 24" range is nothing new. A 5 man GK Termie squad is 225 with the psycannon and no other upgrades and you still see plenty of those around.

The range is even less of a problem with BAO style terrain where a big LOS blocking piece of terrain is often in the middle of the board.

It's really inconvenient for an army to dance outside a 4 foot diameter bubble with an entire army. If 250 points is going to dictate enemy movement and deployment it might be worth while. it makes sense to dance around with a riptide or wraithknight, but not an entire army for a single 250 point unit.

It's also a bad trade to keep 3 riptides cowering in a deployment zone corridor because there is a 250 point squad in the middle of the board.

That being said spamming grav gun centurions sounds like a bad idea. I think a single unit will give good returns, but the returns will diminish sharply as they are spammed.

Take 6 Land Speeder Storms, outflank them, and shoot riptides with cerberus launcher to make them BS1.

Then kill the markerlights with the rest of your army, and now the riptides are useless.

Problem solved?

Polecat wrote:
Take 6 Land Speeder Storms, outflank them, and shoot riptides with cerberus launcher to make them BS1.

Then kill the markerlights with the rest of your army, and now the riptides are useless.

Problem solved?

I'm trying to figure out the best secondary weapon for the LSS. The heavy flamer gets around the scout's low BS, but is short-ranged. Assault Cannon gives you the best flexibility to go after troops, walkers or MCs (non-walker vehicles are immune to blind), but it's also pretty expensive and relies on BS3 to hit...

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, thats why you shouldn't run Centurions with only Grav Weapons. I ceinly don't plan on spamming Grav weapons. I'm looking at twin-linked lascannons and missile launchers. Now that's fire power.

Right now I'm with Grey Templar here.

The way I look at Cents are 'appropriately costed dreadnoughts'. They are extremely good anti-tank role in this capacity.

I plan on fielding 36 bikes with two grav guns per squad. This comes out to be just under 1k points. That leaves me some points to fill. Due to the footprint of 36" bikes, anything I bring has to have good range.

Cents fill this role well. They are cheaper than dreads or preads for the same firepower. If my opponent's wave serpents are focused on shooting them, they will get steamrolled by the bikes shoving krak gernades down tailpipes.

Edit : Don't forget if you made them yellow, they are getting tank hunter. When you add in tank hunter those MLs and LCs get deadly fast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I think you are adding a lot into my statement. It's just a matter of choosing to spend time and $$ on this or play a game where the devs give a $%^^& like Starcraft

Then go play starcraft. It seems a no-brainer to me.

Everyone's planning on loads of grav-guns on bikes - where are they going to come from? For the moment there's one and a combi in the tac squad box, and one and two combis in the sternguard box. I'm guessing they'll be pretty prized bits being so rare or expensive on eBay.

Here's hoping GW release a grav-gun sprue/pack...

 Hedgehog wrote:

Polecat wrote:
Take 6 Land Speeder Storms, outflank them, and shoot riptides with cerberus launcher to make them BS1.

Then kill the markerlights with the rest of your army, and now the riptides are useless.

Problem solved?

I'm trying to figure out the best secondary weapon for the LSS. The heavy flamer gets around the scout's low BS, but is short-ranged. Assault Cannon gives you the best flexibility to go after troops, walkers or MCs (non-walker vehicles are immune to blind), but it's also pretty expensive and relies on BS3 to hit...

HF is nice and cheap, Multi-melta is only worth it with Vulkan, and Assault Cannon is flexible, but expensive for a BS3 model.

 Hedgehog wrote:
Everyone's planning on loads of grav-guns on bikes - where are they going to come from? For the moment there's one and a combi in the tac squad box, and one and two combis in the sternguard box. I'm guessing they'll be pretty prized bits being so rare or expensive on eBay.

Here's hoping GW release a grav-gun sprue/pack...

I just ordered 16 from Anvil.

Here is a thread where some different options are described.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/550534.page

GW was foolish and did not offer to sell them at bits off the bat. As such, I'm going to just buy from a different source


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In regards to the OP -- It appears like you wanted to make a bitch thread instead of a discussion of the good features. I don't know if that was your intention, but that is what the end result appeared to be. I will address your initial idea of the thread.

The Good
Cheaper units. Lowering the cost of units by 20%+ is a big difference. Imagine playing a game of chess, and instead of bringing 16 pieces to the board, your now able to bring 20. What kind of an impact would that have on your game?

Great USRs. Hit and run army wide? Tank hunter for all devastators? Those abilities are pretty bloody incredible! This is because the units in 40k increase exponentially in effectiveness when you start to combine special rules.

Good ally options. Tau and C:SM being battle bro's opens up the door for some very strong combos. A buff commander in a squad of dev centurians, for example. A squad of IG to provide cheap objective camping.

The stalker/hunter. The most common comment is 'they don't have interceptor'. Just reserve them. If you go after the flyer, you can just come on the board and shoot down the flyer. At the cost, these vehicles are a steal. STR 7, AP2 armorbane is a kick in the jimmies for most flyers.

LotD have some function now. They are still steep at 25 points a pop, but they can give some excellent utility to an army. Bringing one squad of these can have a lot of value. You can use them to tie up a wraithknight for the game, or you can use them to go after backfield scorers.

Honor guard are well priced for 2+ models with power weapons. If you go back and read up my article on the Rule of Resilience you will see how a model with a 2+ save is twice as durable to AP4+ weapons as a 3+ armor save unit. What do Tau and Eldar bring a lot of? Ap4+ weapons. This means when compared to a MEQ body, they have very good RPP values.

Sternguard are cheaper. This is nice as they are one of the best units in the dex for flexability. The drawback to this is now they can't combi-out like they used to as easily. 10 points per combi-weapon is a spicy meatball to swallow.

Land Speeder Storm as a dedicated transport. This is one of the most under-valued units in the game in terms of objective grabbing. Being able to get your speeder without sacrificing a storm raven slot is awesome.

Some of the old units just got better. Thunderfire cannons. They were already one of the best units in the codex...

Decent flyers. Look at the flyers that have come out in the past few codex's. Who actually uses the DA flyers? How many Tau flyers do you see? At NOVA I saw a total of 2 crimson hunters -- and those were not at top tables. However, storm talons and storm ravens are not bad flyers.


The Bad
GW has completely failed on the price of dreads and terminators. They over-estimate the value of those units. A terminator is just not worth 40 points. It should be priced at 35. Base dreads should be priced at 65. Those prices are 5+ years old and need to be updated.

Ultramarines are all about an all-comers army. In order to properly utilize their abilities, they need to be diverse. Diverse armies don't work in today's competitive environment.

There is still some dead weight in the codex. Chaplins. Razorbacks. Vanguard Vets. Dreadnoughts. Cent Assault Stquads. Scout Bikes.

Some of the new units just vastly overshadow the old ones. Why the hell would I take a AC/LC predator when I can take 2 hunters? The new tanks overshadow the old ones in every way. The only exception is the whirlwind -- which is a great tank for the cost. If you doubt that, ask HulkSmash.

Like many codex's, there are some FoC slots that are in high contention. There are multiple heavy support options that are all gold. Conversely, the elite section is pretty lackluster with only sternguard and LotD being worthwhile.


The Ugly
The $$$ prices behind these new models is sick. GW models are waaaaaay overpriced.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Some of the new units just vastly overshadow the old ones. Why the hell would I take a AC/LC predator when I can take 2 hunters?

They've got very different roles, the predator will be vastly better against the majority of targets, the hunters will only work against flyers and skimmers.

Ah, excellent point.

Here is what I'm noticing:

White Scars' chapter tactics seem to fit really well with what's available in the codex.

Bike lists are looking strong. 3 shot AP2 weapons that typically wound on 2+ or 3+ with 18" range is pretty darn good. If the meta shifts, there's still plasmaguns. Also, they got cheaper, and with White Scars Chapter Tactics, they all have a 4+ jink save, 3+ if turbo boosted. That's pretty survivable in the current good AP meta.

Typhoon Land Speeders will also do well with White Scars' Chapter Tactics. Yes, they're only av10, but it's a 75 point model with a 4+ jink save, a Typhoon ML, and a heavy bolter. That's good for light AV or anti-infantry, very mobile, and even with 1 less HP than normal it's still decently surviable thanks to the 4+ jink save. Just make sure you move first or hide them in cover to start.

Honor Guard look absolutely insane the moment you can get them into combat. Throw a Chapter Banner in there and you have a 10-man Honor Guard squad for 285 points that has a 2+ save, power weapons, and 5 attacks on the charge. That's very killy, and very survivable so long as you don't attack anything with a 2+ save. Since most AP2 weapons are unweildly, you can charge anyway and most likely wipe the squad if they aren't terminators. 50 attacks on the charge is nuts. It's also important that now you can make a bike list with a chapter master so you don't waste that HQ slot, and now chapter masters actually have a better statline (A4, W4) so you're still getting something for the points cost.

Overall it's looking fairly good. When I first looked at it, I was worrying about the lack of long-range firepower until I saw the points reduction of the Land Speeder and its interaction with White Scars tactics. I also want to point out that, if it's needed, Scout Bike Squads can also be taken as troops and given a locator beacon for anything that wants to deep strike in. The rule simply says "Bike squads of 5 or more" and Scout Bikes can adhere to that.

Do land speeders get the boosted Jink save? I thought it was only bikes.

 Lotus wrote:

Overall it's looking fairly good. When I first looked at it, I was worrying about the lack of long-range firepower until I saw the points reduction of the Land Speeder and its interaction with White Scars tactics..

Land Speeders don't benefit from the White Scars chapter tactics. Only Bikes gain the bonuses from Born in the Saddle.

Crap, you're right. I read that wrong. Well there goes that idea. There's a huge difference between a 5+ and a 4+.

The new codex isn't bad, but I have trouble seeing how it will be a Tau/Eldar/Daemons.

There are cool options, stuff is cheaper, but at the end of the day, they are still MEQ in a very anti-MEQ game.

After looking through, I think that they will be a very viable ally to Tau. If going pure SM:

-Tigirus or Kahn (depending on whether or not you want to go bike heavy)
-Bikes or Scouts in Land Speeder Storms (I actually think a Scouting Storm rush could be pretty fun)
-TFC
-Maybe a squad of Cents or two

Of course, you still have issues with anti-flyer (specifically FMCs), anti-Serpent spam (which I see no real answer for), and the whole problem of Infiltrating Kroot walls stopping your Scout shenanigans.

 JGrand wrote:


Of course, you still have issues with anti-flyer (specifically FMCs), anti-Serpent spam (which I see no real answer for), and the whole problem of Infiltrating Kroot walls stopping your Scout shenanigans.

Depending on FAQ (tournament or official) decisions, Grav Bikers may turn out to be the answer to Serpents. Vehicles only get cover saves against glancing or penetrating hits, a grav weapon causes neither. You can get 9 grav guns (one combi) in a bike squad for 90 odd points. That same squad is also solid against MCs, and with Scout has a huge threat range.

The Kroot wall doesn't shut down the Scout Shenanigans, the same builds that will have Army Wide Scout will also have Army Wide Hit and Run. They can function like a silly, not super powerful version of the Seer Council.

I have no idea if this will turn out to be a top tier book....but there are some good tools in it. If nothing else, they'll be great allies for Tau, lol.

anonymou5 wrote:

 JGrand wrote:


Of course, you still have issues with anti-flyer (specifically FMCs), anti-Serpent spam (which I see no real answer for), and the whole problem of Infiltrating Kroot walls stopping your Scout shenanigans.

Depending on FAQ (tournament or official) decisions, Grav Bikers may turn out to be the answer to Serpents. Vehicles only get cover saves against glancing or penetrating hits, a grav weapon causes neither. You can get 9 grav guns (one combi) in a bike squad for 90 odd points. That same squad is also solid against MCs, and with Scout has a huge threat range.

The Kroot wall doesn't shut down the Scout Shenanigans, the same builds that will have Army Wide Scout will also have Army Wide Hit and Run. They can function like a silly, not super powerful version of the Seer Council.

I have no idea if this will turn out to be a top tier book....but there are some good tools in it. If nothing else, they'll be great allies for Tau, lol.

You can't get 9 grav guns in a single squad. Only 2, and then a combi-grav for the sergeant.

 Lotus wrote:

anonymou5 wrote:

 JGrand wrote:


Of course, you still have issues with anti-flyer (specifically FMCs), anti-Serpent spam (which I see no real answer for), and the whole problem of Infiltrating Kroot walls stopping your Scout shenanigans.

Depending on FAQ (tournament or official) decisions, Grav Bikers may turn out to be the answer to Serpents. Vehicles only get cover saves against glancing or penetrating hits, a grav weapon causes neither. You can get 9 grav guns (one combi) in a bike squad for 90 odd points. That same squad is also solid against MCs, and with Scout has a huge threat range.

The Kroot wall doesn't shut down the Scout Shenanigans, the same builds that will have Army Wide Scout will also have Army Wide Hit and Run. They can function like a silly, not super powerful version of the Seer Council.

I have no idea if this will turn out to be a top tier book....but there are some good tools in it. If nothing else, they'll be great allies for Tau, lol.

You can't get 9 grav guns in a single squad. Only 2, and then a combi-grav for the sergeant.

Maybe he meant 9 shots?

A few first impressions about the codex:

Centurions - DevCents are decent, but only one build seems to bring something valuable to the table. Las/ML Cents have reliable, concentrated, semi-mobile AT firepower. They're a little overpriced, but make up for it by bringing the most firepower per HS choice in a crowded slot. They also have the range to fire from behind an ADL or similar cover, which makes up for the lack of an invuln and somewhat justifies their price. HB/Bolter Cents seem like decent value, particularly with IF Tactics, but SM armies have never lacked anti-infantry firepower and don't really need another platform for it. Grav Cents are very good if they get to shoot an appropriate target, but are highly situational and probably not worth it in a TAC list.

AssCents are exactly that, asinine. Given their speed, you need a LR to transport them, which means they directly compete/compare with Assault Termies. TH/SS are tougher against anything worth fighting, and have more attacks/damage as a squad against anything but AV14. Twin-linked meltaguns plus S9 AP2 make the AssCents the best unit in the codex at close-up vehicular destruction, but this role is redundant and not worth 500+ points in one unit. Against hordes, AssCents are tougher, and twin-linked flamers might make up for their lower damage compared to LC Termies. If anyone ever took LC Termies to begin with. Again, why do you need a 500+ point unit to kill hordes in CC when you can do this cheaper and easier from range? Overall, they aren't a "total crap, never take this" kind of unit, just redundant and narrow in application. They won't have a place in any competitive C:SM army.

TFC - I'm actually kind of mixed on this. Barrage obviously helped vs. aegis lines, but I think the TFC will be much more variable in its accuracy now - since barrage weapons never subtract BS, and all four blasts are dependent on where the first one lands, a bad initial scatter could completely ruin your volley, while a good scatter will probably improve damage. Is that loss of reliability worth the ability to snipe models and use its S6 blast on aegis lines? I'm not sure.

Stalker/Hunter - Both are solid choices and cheap. I think the Hunter is better against most flyers, but the Stalker is a better TAC choice.

From an Ultramarines perspective:

- Tigurius is easily the best SC in the Codex. He is the strongest and most reliable psyker in the book by far, ML3 re-rolling both power choices and failed Psychic tests. In addition, he's the only psyker with access to Prescience, which helps with one of the biggest weaknesses of Vanilla SM. He has 3W now, which helps with survivability, and he has the most useful Warlord trait on the table. His reserve manipulation lets you tailor a list to hit when you want it to. He is a relatively cheap character with enormous force multiplier potential, as long as you keep him away from the enemy.

- Calgar is 20 points more expensive with the armor, but much better. He's still never going to see competitive play because of his cost, but has several boosts. His pass/fail Morale ability is now more valuable because Combat Tactics is gone. His Warlord ability lets you make the best of a bad set of traits. His CT boost lets you get two turns of better shooting. Finally, his ability to unlock 3 squads of HG is more than just fluff now that HG are competitively priced. A list designed to take advantage of these HG might actually justify his points cost. For some reason, Titanic Might doesn't let you re-roll wounds anymore, but it's not a major loss.

- Sicarius is cheaper, but there really aren't any reasons beyond fluff to take him over Tigurius.

 Roboute wrote:

TFC - I'm actually kind of mixed on this. Barrage obviously helped vs. aegis lines, but I think the TFC will be much more variable in its accuracy now - since barrage weapons never subtract BS, and all four blasts are dependent on where the first one lands, a bad initial scatter could completely ruin your volley, while a good scatter will probably improve damage. Is that loss of reliability worth the ability to snipe models and use its S6 blast on aegis lines? I'm not sure.

You can still subtract BS if you maintain LoS. Barrage just now gives us an option to hide them if we want. There's no reason that we can't use them like we already were -- we can now deploy them in a more flexible manner.

IF you decide to hide them, then yes, you sacrifice some of you accuracy, but I don't think it's going to really make a major difference. I suppose I'll need to get some games in before I decide on that.

One other thing it adds is pinning. This gets overlooked because a lot of armies essentially ignore it, but it is added flavor.

Barrage weapons always hit the top floor of muti-story structures. Those Eldar rangers can just hide in one of the middle floors now.

The only reason to take Calgar's terminator armor is if you are going to teleport him in, or want the beacon. He's back in artificer armor and has an iron halo, so already has a 2+ 4++ save.

 Lotus wrote:
I also want to point out that, if it's needed, Scout Bike Squads can also be taken as troops and given a locator beacon for anything that wants to deep strike in. The rule simply says "Bike squads of 5 or more" and Scout Bikes can adhere to that.

I don't think this applies, much as I'd like it to. 'Bike squads' are a specific unit - scout bikes are not a 'bike squad'.

Puscifer wrote:
I just had a conversation with a close friend who is a veteran tourney player and he agrees with you, Martel, regarding MLs... To some extent.

In the old Dex he suggests that the ML was good for anti horde, but with the new Dex, PC is just sooooo much better for the minor increase in PTS.

LC on the other hand are also better in this Dex, also due to the points and tank busting capability.

As for Centurions... He feels that they have a place vs some armies and believes that they are a unit that should be taken according to what CT you are using and your play style.

Great in an IH list, but not spectacular in anything else really.

He says that they are pricey, but useable and... This is the kicker... If you must take them in Devastators, take the ML. You get to shoot twice and it's a much higher quality of shot than the Hurricane Bolters.

He suggests taking no more than a three man squad and that you should either go all LC/ML or GC/GA and ML.

As for AssCents... They are not good at all.

One thing he does not believe though is that this codex is boned vs Eldar or Tau and that CSM is actually winnable now. He plays (and BA) and knows what he's talking about there.

Tau and Eldar seem to be this armies biggest Achilles heels, but it is a match up that CAN be won.

As an experienced tournament player I would disagree with your friend. I can't see an instance where the Centurions will be good against top tier lists. Just look at how much terminators suck, then take away the invul save. Nuff said. Also where are you getting 2 shots from the ML? It's not even twin linked. As someone who plays chaos, marines, IG, nids, & Tau I literally laugh at Cents.

Puscifer wrote:
I just had a conversation with a close friend who is a veteran tourney player and he agrees with you, Martel, regarding MLs... To some extent.

In the old Dex he suggests that the ML was good for anti horde, but with the new Dex, PC is just sooooo much better for the minor increase in PTS.

LC on the other hand are also better in this Dex, also due to the points and tank busting capability.

As for Centurions... He feels that they have a place vs some armies and believes that they are a unit that should be taken according to what CT you are using and your play style.

Great in an IH list, but not spectacular in anything else really.

He says that they are pricey, but useable and... This is the kicker... If you must take them in Devastators, take the ML. You get to shoot twice and it's a much higher quality of shot than the Hurricane Bolters.

He suggests taking no more than a three man squad and that you should either go all LC/ML or GC/GA and ML.

As for AssCents... They are not good at all.

One thing he does not believe though is that this codex is boned vs Eldar or Tau and that CSM is actually winnable now. He plays (and BA) and knows what he's talking about there.

Tau and Eldar seem to be this armies biggest Achilles heels, but it is a match up that CAN be won.

I'll believe it when I see it. I must still disagree that the ML ever worked as anti-horde. The frag missile has sucked since 2nd edition. I'd like to think that playing BA since 2nd edition might give me some idea of what I'm talking about as well. Tank hunter totally changes the math for the ML, but that doesn't make the basic, standard ML work a damn.

Maybe the grav cannon thing will turn out to be the bees knees. I don't know. But the choice of hurricane bolter or ML as one of this things only two weapon choices really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It still looks to me that LC/ML centurions are just a really expensive way to play the HP stripping game with ROF 1 weapons. Cents are still wounded by Eldar weapons on 3's or 2's. I see them being spammed off the board very quickly.

No offense, but I want to know specifically how this guy thinks this codex is even going trouble the Eldar/Tau/Demon power block.

 schadenfreude wrote:
I don't think the 24" range on Centurions is the end of the world. A 250 point squad with a 24" range is nothing new. A 5 man GK Termie squad is 225 with the psycannon and no other upgrades and you still see plenty of those around.

5 man GK termies squads suck right now.

Who are you guus playing against these days? 2 squads of firewarriors will out range & out shoot these guys. 250 pts for a unit that move a max of 6" per turn & is weaker to plasma than terminators. Tau & Eldar laugh at these guys. Think about it, if you lose 4 wounds their combat effectiveness is shot. Not only that they are 1 use only, either v tanks/heavy or v swarms. The oblits are so much better than these.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Well, thats why you shouldn't run Centurions with only Grav Weapons. I ceinly don't plan on spamming Grav weapons. I'm looking at twin-linked lascannons and missile launchers. Now that's fire power.

NickTheButcher wrote:You can still subtract BS if you maintain LoS. Barrage just now gives us an option to hide them if we want. There's no reason that we can't use them like we already were -- we can now deploy them in a more flexible manner.

IF you decide to hide them, then yes, you sacrifice some of you accuracy, but I don't think it's going to really make a major difference. I suppose I'll need to get some games in before I decide on that.

One other thing it adds is pinning. This gets overlooked because a lot of armies essentially ignore it, but it is added flavor.

Read the BRB section on Barrage weapons again. "When firing indirectly, the Ballistic Skill of the firer is not subtracted from the scatter distance; unless a Hit! is rolled on the scatter dice, the blast marker always scatters a full 2D6." All barrage weapons can choose to fire directly as normal blast weapons (which I forgot, and assuages my earlier concerns), but if they do fire indirectly, their BS is reduced regardless of LoS. Regardless, the ability to choose is great and simply adds options for them.

Nevelon wrote:The only reason to take Calgar's terminator armor is if you are going to teleport him in, or want the beacon. He's back in artificer armor and has an iron halo, so already has a 2+ 4++ save.

Or if you think the Terminator model is way more badass and couldn't fathom taking anything different.

Regarding MLs vs. other options, in the previous codex there were a few reasons to take MLs on infantry. In Dev squads, lascannons were ridiculously overpriced. In Tac Squads, you got the ML for free, and it was better than nothing for a camping combat squad. Now LC Devs are much more affordable, and Tacs have to pay for a ML, which also went up in price compared to HB and PC. There isn't really any more reason to take ML on your Marines. They still work on Typhoons (or CML if you use Tac Termies).

Automatically Appended Next Post:
"In regards to the OP -- It appears like you wanted to make a bitch thread instead of a discussion of the good features. I don't know if that was your intention, but that is what the end result appeared to be. I will address your initial idea of the thread."

I don't see anything here that will let marines stand up on their own in a competitive environment against Tau, Eldar, & maybe Daemons too. I could care less what you think my intentions were. If you can see some way to make them work so be it.

"The Good
Cheaper units. Lowering the cost of units by 20%+ is a big difference. Imagine playing a game of chess, and instead of bringing 16 pieces to the board, your now able to bring 20. What kind of an impact would that have on your game?"

I play DA so this is all standard prices for me, go ask a DA player how their dex stands up to the Tau, Eldar, & Daemons.

"Great USRs. Hit and run army wide? Tank hunter for all devastators? Those abilities are pretty bloody incredible! This is because the units in 40k increase exponentially in effectiveness when you start to combine special rules."

Again at the loss of being able to choose to fail a ld check & auto rally. Devastator squads don't have the durability to survive on the battle field unless you give them ablative bolter wounds in which case they become too expensive. Maybe if SM could take autocannons this would be better. Hit & run army wide is useable only in combat & unless you are playing Daemons, you are probably involved in maybe 1-2 combats in a game. Not that great. I think the big problem is that they are still trying to make marines good at close combat & shooting, with the problem there being that even with scout or whatever most marines are too slow or not durable enough to make it into combat.

"Good ally options. Tau and C:SM being battle bro's opens up the door for some very strong combos. A buff commander in a squad of dev centurians, for example. A squad of IG to provide cheap objective camping."

This remains true. Tau with SM allies is and always was very good. Not quite as good now that you have to roll randomly for Gate & there is no more Null Zone. But still pretty good.

"The stalker/hunter. The most common comment is 'they don't have interceptor'. Just reserve them. If you go after the flyer, you can just come on the board and shoot down the flyer. At the cost, these vehicles are a steal. STR 7, AP2 armorbane is a kick in the jimmies for most flyers."

What you are not seeing is that Tau & Eldar are dominating the meta without using fliers. These will be good against flying circus lists maybe, but not a game changer. The missle is great except it's 1 shot & basically no good against FMCs. I'm not sure why GW is obsessed with making all SM skyfire options S7. But S7 sucks against a heldrake with a 5++ & IWND, so the missile is the better option there. Again these are too specialized IMO.

"LotD have some function now. They are still steep at 25 points a pop, but they can give some excellent utility to an army. Bringing one squad of these can have a lot of value. You can use them to tie up a wraithknight for the game, or you can use them to go after backfield scorers."

They certainly have a function. How good they are remains to be seen.

"Honor guard are well priced for 2+ models with power weapons. If you go back and read up my article on the Rule of Resilience you will see how a model with a 2+ save is twice as durable to AP4+ weapons as a 3+ armor save unit. What do Tau and Eldar bring a lot of? Ap4+ weapons. This means when compared to a MEQ body, they have very good RPP values."

Honor Guard are good & basically what terminators should be. Now if they could just move faster or deep strike they would be great. They are good though & it's unfortunate that you have to pay a chapter master tax to take 1 unit of them.

"Sternguard are cheaper. This is nice as they are one of the best units in the dex for flexability. The drawback to this is now they can't combi-out like they used to as easily. 10 points per combi-weapon is a spicy meatball to swallow."

Agreed, more will be better but not as good at punching hvy armour or 2+ save units. This was the 1 unit that was pretty good against Wave Serpents, but not so much any more.


"Land Speeder Storm as a dedicated transport. This is one of the most under-valued units in the game in terms of objective grabbing. Being able to get your speeder without sacrificing a storm raven slot is awesome."

Agreed I like 5 scouts in a storm for cheap effective & fast troops.

"Some of the old units just got better. Thunderfire cannons. They were already one of the best units in the codex..."

+

"Decent flyers. Look at the flyers that have come out in the past few codex's. Who actually uses the DA flyers? How many Tau flyers do you see? At NOVA I saw a total of 2 crimson hunters -- and those were not at top tables. However, storm talons and storm ravens are not bad flyers."

+


"The Bad
GW has completely failed on the price of dreads and terminators. They over-estimate the value of those units. A terminator is just not worth 40 points. It should be priced at 35. Base dreads should be priced at 65. Those prices are 5+ years old and need to be updated. "

Yep, I'd add to that list Predators, LR, Chaplains, Vanguard vets, razorbacks, & maybe Chapter masters (Centurions!).

"Ultramarines are all about an all-comers army. In order to properly utilize their abilities, they need to be diverse. Diverse armies don't work in today's competitive environment."

Yep, maybe if they could pick 1 tactic every turn & do an oblit style rotation to limit it.

"There is still some dead weight in the codex. Chaplins. Razorbacks. Vanguard Vets. Dreadnoughts. Cent Assault Stquads. Scout Bikes. "

Yep

"Some of the new units just vastly overshadow the old ones. Why the hell would I take a AC/LC predator when I can take 2 hunters? The new tanks overshadow the old ones in every way. The only exception is the whirlwind -- which is a great tank for the cost. If you doubt that, ask HulkSmash. "

I never leave my whirlwind at home with my RW. The predator is definitely the worst "main battle tank" in the game. Maybe if it could move & shoot effectively.

"Like many codex's, there are some FoC slots that are in high contention. There are multiple heavy support options that are all gold. Conversely, the elite section is pretty lackluster with only sternguard and LotD being worthwhile."

yep


"The Ugly
The $$$ prices behind these new models is sick. GW models are waaaaaay overpriced.

 Lotus wrote:
Here is what I'm noticing:

White Scars' chapter tactics seem to fit really well with what's available in the codex.

Bike lists are looking strong. 3 shot AP2 weapons that typically wound on 2+ or 3+ with 18" range is pretty darn good. If the meta shifts, there's still plasmaguns. Also, they got cheaper, and with White Scars Chapter Tactics, they all have a 4+ jink save, 3+ if turbo boosted. That's pretty survivable in the current good AP meta.

Typhoon Land Speeders will also do well with White Scars' Chapter Tactics. Yes, they're only av10, but it's a 75 point model with a 4+ jink save, a Typhoon ML, and a heavy bolter. That's good for light AV or anti-infantry, very mobile, and even with 1 less HP than normal it's still decently surviable thanks to the 4+ jink save. Just make sure you move first or hide them in cover to start.

Honor Guard look absolutely insane the moment you can get them into combat. Throw a Chapter Banner in there and you have a 10-man Honor Guard squad for 285 points that has a 2+ save, power weapons, and 5 attacks on the charge. That's very killy, and very survivable so long as you don't attack anything with a 2+ save. Since most AP2 weapons are unweildly, you can charge anyway and most likely wipe the squad if they aren't terminators. 50 attacks on the charge is nuts. It's also important that now you can make a bike list with a chapter master so you don't waste that HQ slot, and now chapter masters actually have a better statline (A4, W4) so you're still getting something for the points cost.

Overall it's looking fairly good. When I first looked at it, I was worrying about the lack of long-range firepower until I saw the points reduction of the Land Speeder and its interaction with White Scars tactics. I also want to point out that, if it's needed, Scout Bike Squads can also be taken as troops and given a locator beacon for anything that wants to deep strike in. The rule simply says "Bike squads of 5 or more" and Scout Bikes can adhere to that.

Good summation. I was thinking the same thing. Didn't catch the scout bike thing. Cluster mines will be a PITA for some armies.

 Roboute wrote:

- Calgar is 20 points more expensive with the armor, but much better. He's still never going to see competitive play because of his cost, but has several boosts. His pass/fail Morale ability is now more valuable because Combat Tactics is gone. His Warlord ability lets you make the best of a bad set of traits. His CT boost lets you get two turns of better shooting. Finally, his ability to unlock 3 squads of HG is more than just fluff now that HG are competitively priced. A list designed to take advantage of these HG might actually justify his points cost. For some reason, Titanic Might doesn't let you re-roll wounds anymore, but it's not a major loss.

I agree with everything in your post. Just don't forget with Calgar you can still roll on the BRB warlord tables & re-roll duplicates. This is the only thing that makes is as good as Azraels ability. Also the ability to bring 3 honor guard squads, now reasonably priced & arguably better than termies, is good. But as you said getting into CC is very difficult now. What Calgar really needs at his cost is non-unwieldy PF, which I don't think is OP when you compare what you get for the same price with Abbadon, Swarmlord, Draigo, or any similarly priced DP or GD.

Just to throw a couple things in here.

To the question of how to counter Tau/Eldar Grav weapons really bring a lot to the table combined with price reductions. If you need mobile Centurions look no further than Tigirius. Labmouse42 can run the numbers but it looks like he gets close to a 75% chance of getting any one power. He can also get things like Forewarning or endurance for extra durability. Its nearing Deathstar prices but with cheap bikes, scouts, crusaders, etc you can afford to spend on toys in this codex unlike last one.

Secondly Don't forget allies. O'vesastar or Seercouncil got you down? Space Wolves are BB, get JOWW and Rune Weapons. Also handy vs. Daemons. Anti-Drake can be accomplished with Tau allies. Lots of options here and I suspect there will be a bit of a lag for Space Marines to impact the meta in a lasting way because of the size of the codex...

 Nevelon wrote:
The only reason to take Calgar's terminator armor is if you are going to teleport him in, or want the beacon. He's back in artificer armor and has an iron halo, so already has a 2+ 4++ save.

I believe it also lets you move and fire his Orbital Bombardment.

 Fulcrum wrote:
I agree with everything in your post. Just don't forget with Calgar you can still roll on the book warlord tables & re-roll duplicates. This is the only thing that makes is as good as Azraels ability. Also the ability to bring 3 honor guard squads, now reasonably priced & arguably better than termies, is good. But as you said getting into CC is very difficult now. What Calgar really needs at his cost is non-unwieldy PF, which I don't think is OP when you compare what you get for the same price with Abbadon, Swarmlord, Draigo, or any similarly priced DP or GD.

Thanks, I didn't notice that bit about the book warlord traits. A few of those abilities, such as making him scoring, could be good. I would actually argue that Calgar is fine as-is - he's a strong beatstick, but he trades truly top-tier CC for more powerful force multipliers than Abbadon or the Swarmlord. This makes him less worthwhile in low points games, but he scales up much better as point values increase.

Glocknall wrote:
Just to throw a couple things in here.

To the question of how to counter Tau/Eldar Grav weapons really bring a lot to the table combined with price reductions. If you need mobile Centurions look no further than Tigirius. Labmouse42 can run the numbers but it looks like he gets close to a 75% chance of getting any one power. He can also get things like Forewarning or endurance for extra durability. Its nearing Deathstar prices but with cheap bikes, scouts, crusaders, etc you can afford to spend on toys in this codex unlike last one.

Secondly Don't forget allies. O'vesastar or Seercouncil got you down? Space Wolves are BB, get JOWW and Rune Weapons. Also handy vs. Daemons. Anti-Drake can be accomplished with Tau allies. Lots of options here and I suspect there will be a bit of a lag for Space Marines to impact the meta in a lasting way because of the size of the codex...

The problem with Grav weapons is needing that 6 to do ANYTHING against WS, meaning to be really effective you need the grav amp wich of course is only available on Dev Cents. Don't get me wrong, I have hopes for my biker army, but it's just hope not anticipation. Tiggy +3x Dev Cents w/grav is 415 base. Not very durable & a big target to get bogged down in CC. I love Tiggy & think there are better ways to use him without exposing him so much. What I don't understand about SM ever since 2nd ed is why they have so many limitations on who can take what as far as weapons & wargear. Why don't they "open up the playbook" so to speak. There are so many pieces of equipment that only 1 model in the army can ever take (signum, locator beacon, grav amp), or just allow termies, characters, dev squads, tac squads access to any special weapon. Termies with grav would be interesting, or assault marines. If devs could take 4 specials instead of only heavies. If HQs could take melta/grav/plas not in the single shot only variety. Just give more options. For an army thats supposed to be flexible, they are very inflexible. Also what was guilliman(sp?) thinking when he decided it was a good tactic to only allow tac squads 1 hvy & 1 special, think how much better it would be if it was 2 of either in any combo. Also where are my combat knives?!?! Did the GH steal them all?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roboute wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
I agree with everything in your post. Just don't forget with Calgar you can still roll on the book warlord tables & re-roll duplicates. This is the only thing that makes is as good as Azraels ability. Also the ability to bring 3 honor guard squads, now reasonably priced & arguably better than termies, is good. But as you said getting into CC is very difficult now. What Calgar really needs at his cost is non-unwieldy PF, which I don't think is OP when you compare what you get for the same price with Abbadon, Swarmlord, Draigo, or any similarly priced DP or GD.

Thanks, I didn't notice that bit about the book warlord traits. A few of those abilities, such as making him scoring, could be good. I would actually argue that Calgar is fine as-is - he's a strong beatstick, but he trades truly top-tier CC for more powerful force multipliers than Abbadon or the Swarmlord. This makes him less worthwhile in low points games, but he scales up much better as point values increase.

I would say the 3 characters I named have as much or more synergy/force multiplication/utility than Calgar + they strike a Ini.

I think another thing missing from this codex is any way to really change the FOC other than bike squads, which every other codex has. I understand they want to save ASM as troops for BA, but still something would be nice. I would pay a lot more for Pedro if he made Sternguard troops, not just scoring.

 Fulcrum wrote:
Also what was guilliman(sp?) thinking when he decided it was a good tactic to only allow tac squads 1 hvy & 1 special, think how much better it would be if it was 2 of either in any combo

If you want two heavies/10 guys, just take two 5-man squads.

 Fulcrum wrote:
The problem with Grav weapons is needing that 6 to do ANYTHING against WS, meaning to be really effective you need the grav amp wich of course is only available on Dev Cents. Don't get me wrong, I have hopes for my biker army, but it's just hope not anticipation. Tiggy +3x Dev Cents w/grav is 415 base. Not very durable & a big target to get bogged down in CC. I love Tiggy & think there are better ways to use him without exposing him so much. What I don't understand about SM ever since 2nd ed is why they have so many limitations on who can take what as far as weapons & wargear. Why don't they "open up the playbook" so to speak. There are so many pieces of equipment that only 1 model in the army can ever take (signum, locator beacon, grav amp), or just allow termies, characters, dev squads, tac squads access to any special weapon. Termies with grav would be interesting, or assault marines. If devs could take 4 specials instead of only heavies. If HQs could take melta/grav/plas not in the single shot only variety. Just give more options. For an army thats supposed to be flexible, they are very inflexible. Also what was guilliman(sp?) thinking when he decided it was a good tactic to only allow tac squads 1 hvy & 1 special, think how much better it would be if it was 2 of either in any combo. Also where are my combat knives?!?! Did the GH steal them all?

You make some good points. The firepower on the Grav Cents is staggering once you consider the Grav Cannons put out 15 shots rerolling pens. I think GW might of overlooked not twin-linking the grav cannons as they are clearly twin-linked on the model but whatever.. If you DS Tiggy remember your still working with 24" range so you don't have to expose him as much as you usually do when DSing. Also another solve for WS is Legion of the Damned with MM, MG, Combi Melta loadout. They ignore cover and have a reliable deep strike to get rear armor or exposed WS.

I agree with you whole heartedly about the opening of the playbook as you put it. I'd like to see more robust loadouts and options for certain.

Something to consider today about the meta is the importance of long range firepower. So much work is done in the 24"-36" range band these days that if you can deliver hard hitting firepower from beyond that range you are at a nice advantage. With T-Fires, Dev Cents, Whirlwinds and the extra FOC by allying with self you can really cripple a lot of armies these days in early rounds. Leafblower isn't quite back yet but Space Marines can reach out and touch things.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:
Also what was guilliman(sp?) thinking when he decided it was a good tactic to only allow tac squads 1 hvy & 1 special, think how much better it would be if it was 2 of either in any combo

If you want two heavies/10 guys, just take two 5-man squads.

Sure if you could put them in the same transport that would be great, also I'm more interested in the special weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"You make some good points. The firepower on the Grav Cents is staggering once you consider the Grav Cannons put out 15 shots rerolling pens. I think GW might of overlooked not twin-linking the grav cannons as they are clearly twin-linked on the model but whatever.. If you DS Tiggy remember your still working with 24" range so you don't have to expose him as much as you usually do when DSing. Also another solve for WS is Legion of the Damned with MM, MG, Combi Melta loadout. They ignore cover and have a reliable deep strike to get rear armor or exposed WS.

I agree with you whole heartedly about the opening of the playbook as you put it. I'd like to see more robust loadouts and options for certain.

Something to consider today about the meta is the importance of long range firepower. So much work is done in the 24"-36" range band these days that if you can deliver hard hitting firepower from beyond that range you are at a nice advantage. With T-Fires, Dev Cents, Whirlwinds and the extra FOC by allying with self you can really cripple a lot of armies these days in early rounds. Leafblower isn't quite back yet but Space Marines can reach out and touch things."

I just don't think the grav cents will ever make their points back before being killed. Sure maybe you can DS in & kill 1 thing before you die, possibly taking your warlord & best character (tiggy), with you. Without Tiggy though they will just get out ranged & out maneuvered.

With your legion of the damned load out you will have to hit & pen/glance with all 3 shots to kill a WS. Then die to whatever is inside or around it if you do. As we all know it is very easy for any Eldar player worth his salt to deny rear armour by deploying on the board edge or up against LOS terrain. As for your long range firepower point, just look at Tau, they have 36" threat with their basic gun. WS have an effective threat range of 72".

Martel732 wrote:
I'm also a Browns fan. I have decades of practice. And the absolute raping the BA took in 6th is just really hard to get over.

I'm not professing to be the greatest player in the world, or a tactical genius or even going to justify my positions with pseudo-intellectual positions, i must have played BA 50+ times in 5th edition...... What I will say is that if you think BLOOD ANGELS got RAPED then you obviously think the Following is all entirely reasonable.

1. Fast Tanks .......
2. Deep Striking Landraiders.....
3. Cheap Assault Marines as troops in cheap transports.
4. Snippy-Snippy Dreadnoughts.
5. Access to a Flyer only GK do?
6. Priests for FNP for almost every unit..
7. Tanks with Assault Cannons, or Flamestorm Cannons.
8. Razorback Spam.
9. Sanguinary Guard.
10. Red Thirst
11. Descent of Angels.
12. Meph - T6 I7 Bloodlance?
13. Magna-Grappler
14. Frag Cannon?

BA have had it better than good for a long time....Time for some Austerity - For perspective if you want to compare notes on Butt-hurt I play Iron Hands a LEGION!! That has been forgotten about since it became a Chapter mate, so your whinging about BA falls upon my Cold Deaf Ears as it did on Brother Ignatius Numen.

If that's what you think, maybe you missed the part in 5th where the GK immediately stole the BAs thunder. The BA were only truly broken in 3rd. In 5th, they got leaf blowered by the IG just like everyone else. The myth of how good the BA really were in 5th is alive and well I see.

You list off a lot things in the BA codex, yes. But the BA overpay for almost all of that stuff, leaving too few models on the table. It's not the mechanics of BA tricks so much as what they pay for them.

The BA were an expensive list in 5th, which brought its own hazards, but in 6th, their model count is just way too poor.

Martel732 wrote:
If that's what you think, maybe you missed the part in 5th where the GK immediately stole the BAs thunder. The BA were only truly broken in 3rd. In 5th, they got leaf blowered by the IG just like everyone else. The myth of how good the BA really were in 5th is alive and well I see.

You list off a lot things in the BA codex, yes. But the BA overpay for almost all of that stuff, leaving too few models on the table. It's not the mechanics of BA tricks so much as what they pay for them.

The BA were an expensive list in 5th, which brought its own hazards, but in 6th, their model count is just way too poor.

I have to agree with Martel with what he's said about BA.

I might not see eye to eye with a lot of his statements, but he's been on the money with his criticism of the BA from 5th to 6th.

Is BA the only army you play?

*YES*

Even allies are a bit cost prohibitive given GW's prices, but at this point, I'm not sure why I'd build around meqs.

If I roll 2 sixes with grav weapons on a vehicle does it take away 3 hull points?

First one immobilize and take a hull point, the second one immobilize takes a second hull point because of the immobilizing an already immobilize vehicle, and the same shot still causes a hull point due to the grav rule thus 3 hull points.

Is that correct?

Martel732 wrote:
*YES*

Even allies are a bit cost prohibitive given GW's prices, but at this point, I'm not sure why I'd build around meqs.

Makes sense.

Btw... tried making a TAC list using the new book. It's actually quite difficult when you have three or four very different codexes as the top ones.

I found that some units are great against some but useless against others.

For example...

Grav Cents are really good vs CSM, pretty good vs Tau and Eldar (depending on the Eldar build), but they are absolutely turd against Daemons.

It seems to be that this books units are very rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock. You might have to choose units that are good against the majority, but lose against one of the main tier lists.

Totally agree with you on the leaving a bad taste in your mouth with the Hurricane vs ML upgrade. If you are hunting Terminators and other 2+ save guys with Grav Cents, the ML is useless.

I have always maintained that krak missiles should be AP 2, Lascannons AP 1, and plasma AP 3.

"Grav Cents are really good vs CSM, pretty good vs Tau and Eldar (depending on the Eldar build), but they are absolutely turd against Daemons.

It seems to be that this books units are very rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock. You might have to choose units that are good against the majority, but lose against one of the main tier lists.

Totally agree with you on the leaving a bad taste in your mouth with the Hurricane vs ML upgrade. If you are hunting Terminators and other 2+ save guys with Grav Cents, the ML is useless."



How are you making Grav Cents "pretty good" vs. Tau & Eldar. Other than the previously mentioned Tigurius deepstrike(no guarantee), they are too slow & will never get in range before they die.

When you have to attach special character to make a weapon system functional, that means its bad.

Martel732 wrote:
When you have to attach special character to make a weapon system functional, that means its bad.

No arguments here. We'll call it the Tiggy Tax

 Fulcrum wrote:


I just don't think the grav cents will ever make their points back before being killed. Sure maybe you can DS in & kill 1 thing before you die, possibly taking your warlord & best character (tiggy), with you. Without Tiggy though they will just get out ranged & out maneuvered.

With your legion of the damned load out you will have to hit & pen/glance with all 3 shots to kill a WS. Then die to whatever is inside or around it if you do. As we all know it is very easy for any Eldar player worth his salt to deny rear armour by deploying on the board edge or up against LOS terrain. As for your long range firepower point, just look at Tau, they have 36" threat with their basic gun. WS have an effective threat range of 72".

You're oversimplifying things here. While I'd love to see the cost of Grav Cents go down a tad, maybe 50 points base, they have more delivery options than you're giving them credit for. . Raider is an over costed option but gives best protection in game. Many times you will not need movement, your enemies death star will come to you. Add a Tau buff commander w/ Iridium, twin link and ignores cover.

As for the Wave Serpent you seem to think all they do is hang at board edge and fire shields. Use Tiggy to delay your reserves and wait till they fire the shields, they will....on turn one. Also remember that the WS is carrying enemy troops. They will need to move off board edge to grab objectives. The little secret about the WS is stay out of laser lock range.

Models with bulky, very bulky, or extremely bulky do not get scout or infiltrate/outflank, reread the CT.

Glocknall wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:


I just don't think the grav cents will ever make their points back before being killed. Sure maybe you can DS in & kill 1 thing before you die, possibly taking your warlord & best character (tiggy), with you. Without Tiggy though they will just get out ranged & out maneuvered.

With your legion of the damned load out you will have to hit & pen/glance with all 3 shots to kill a WS. Then die to whatever is inside or around it if you do. As we all know it is very easy for any Eldar player worth his salt to deny rear armour by deploying on the board edge or up against LOS terrain. As for your long range firepower point, just look at Tau, they have 36" threat with their basic gun. WS have an effective threat range of 72".

You're oversimplifying things here. While I'd love to see the cost of Grav Cents go down a tad, maybe 50 points base, they have more delivery options than you're giving them credit for. . Raider is an over costed option but gives best protection in game. Many times you will not need movement, your enemies death star will come to you. Add a Tau buff commander w/ Iridium, twin link and ignores cover.

As for the Wave Serpent you seem to think all they do is hang at board edge and fire shields. Use Tiggy to delay your reserves and wait till they fire the shields, they will....on turn one. Also remember that the WS is carrying enemy troops. They will need to move off board edge to grab objectives. The little secret about the WS is stay out of laser lock range.

So we need a Tau ally to make marine centurions good?

Well for a short window you can take that FW Librarian that exchanges chapter tactics for infiltrate. I'm sure it's going to get changed, but I think that's actually a pretty solid delivery option for Centurions.

*milage varies on meta

Martel732 wrote:

Glocknall wrote:

 Fulcrum wrote:


I just don't think the grav cents will ever make their points back before being killed. Sure maybe you can DS in & kill 1 thing before you die, possibly taking your warlord & best character (tiggy), with you. Without Tiggy though they will just get out ranged & out maneuvered.

With your legion of the damned load out you will have to hit & pen/glance with all 3 shots to kill a WS. Then die to whatever is inside or around it if you do. As we all know it is very easy for any Eldar player worth his salt to deny rear armour by deploying on the board edge or up against LOS terrain. As for your long range firepower point, just look at Tau, they have 36" threat with their basic gun. WS have an effective threat range of 72".

You're oversimplifying things here. While I'd love to see the cost of Grav Cents go down a tad, maybe 50 points base, they have more delivery options than you're giving them credit for. . Raider is an over costed option but gives best protection in game. Many times you will not need movement, your enemies death star will come to you. Add a Tau buff commander w/ Iridium, twin link and ignores cover.

As for the Wave Serpent you seem to think all they do is hang at board edge and fire shields. Use Tiggy to delay your reserves and wait till they fire the shields, they will....on turn one. Also remember that the WS is carrying enemy troops. They will need to move off board edge to grab objectives. The little secret about the WS is stay out of laser lock range.

So we need a Tau ally to make marine centurions good?

Absolutely not.

As I said before, the key with the TAC marine army seems to be that no matter which units you take, they will not be good against everything.

GravCents Murder CSM (I used them against CSM last night and they worked brilliantly - two dead units of PM by T3 and a dead unit of Obliterators T4), they are ok vs Tau, ok vs Eldar depending on the type of Eldar army (they are stellar vs Wraith heavy lists), but they are incredibly bad vs Daemons.

Paper/Rock/Scissors/Lizard/Spock seems to be the norm with this book.

Yeah, maybe you are right. But I still hate the bimodal hurricane bolter/ML thing.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, maybe you are right. But I still hate the bimodal hurricane bolter/ML thing.

It was ok for squeezing through the kills on PM, but totally useless on my build vs the Obliterators.

I popped a Rhino on turn one, but again, you are right.

Not a great weapon.

I want to test the GravCents against other armies, but it seems that aside from MEQ and TEQ armies, they are just "OK" vs everything else.

This has a double edged effect. Being Ok means it is useable vs all, but they don't shine vs everything.

Grav Cents:

Vs MEQ and TEQ - Gravs are great here.
Vs Tau - Grav is ok vs the FW, good vs Suits and fantastic vs Riptide.
Vs Eldar - Great vs Wraiths, ok vs everything else.
Vs Daemons - Useless.
Vs Orks - Useless.
Vs Guard - Useless.
Vs Tyranids - Useless vs infantry, fantastic vs the medium beasts and MC.
Vs Necrons - It's a mixed bag here. Great vs some, average vs other units.

I really like the concept of the grav, but plasma is almost too good as "one stop shopping" in 6th edition.

People are pimping the lascannon/ML cents, but I just see three TL lascannons there.

The Riptide does not need to get anywhere close to the Cents, and it won't. Wraithknights will just use their heavy d cannons to blast apart your cents, and LR carrying them first if necessary. Maybe the LR can take the beating. This might make Eldar start using fire dragons again to stop "box full of centurions with grav". Not that fire dragons are bad.

Martel732 wrote:
I really like the concept of the grav, but plasma is almost too good as "one stop shopping" in 6th edition.

People are pimping the lascannon/ML cents, but I just see three TL lascannons there.

The Riptide does not need to get anywhere close to the Cents, and it won't. Wraithknights will just use their heavy d cannons to blast apart your cents, and LR carrying them first if necessary. Maybe the LR can take the beating. This might make Eldar start using fire dragons again to stop "box full of centurions with grav". Not that fire dragons are bad.

Never seen the WK take a Heavy D Cannon, only the Suncannon, but I see where you're coming from.

I don't think taking a LR is a good idea though. Too many points in one basket.

Smart Eldar players realize the value of ranged ST 10. ST 10 is power, and now with these grav guys running around, I expect to see it more. They one shot the cents, by the way. Fun, fun.

The suncannon is actually a weapon my BA find kinda meh. I'm more afraid of the thing in HTH. But heavy d cannons can blow up predators, etc.

I dont' know if the LR is good or not. If you don't have one, you will never get slow and purposeful models within grav range of riptides and wraithknights against good players.

Martel732 wrote:
Smart Eldar players realize the value of ranged ST 10. ST 10 is power, and now with these grav guys running around, I expect to see it more. They one shot the cents, by the way. Fun, fun.

The suncannon is actually a weapon my BA find kinda meh. I'm more afraid of the thing in HTH. But heavy d cannons can blow up predators, etc.

I dont' know if the LR is good or not. If you don't have one, you will never get slow and purposeful models within grav range of riptides and wraithknights against good players.

Is the Heavy D a blast?

I ran two LRC in my DW lists to great effect and I like Raiders a lot, I just don't know if I want to add another 250 points to the unit.

Then again though, I could DS in my Terminators if I chose to take them in my Vanilla army, so that frees up my LR to take the Cents, so really, I'm only paying for the Cents and not extra to get them there as I've repurposed the LR.

One useful tactic for advancing Centurions into range is to take a character with artificer or Terminator armor and the relic Storm Shield and have him stand in front. Not only will he be immune to Instant Death from strength 10 attacks, but his 3++ should work to deflect plasma/melta/grav attacks quite effectively.

 Kingsley wrote:
One useful tactic for advancing Centurions into range is to take a character with artificer or Terminator armor and the relic Storm Shield and have him stand in front. Not only will he be immune to Instant Death from strength 10 attacks, but his 3++ should work to deflect plasma/melta/grav attacks quite effectively.

Whilst I agree this tactic would work quite well, it's cost calls into question its effectiveness. Even in a Squad of 3 Centurions, that more than 400pts shoved into a single unit which is incredibly slow, albeit durable.

I personally don't feel that durability on the part of the Centurions is nearly as big an issue is as their terrible foot speed.

Iranna.

A question from a non C:SM-player... I have just finished painting an army that I have dreamt about since the early days of "Space Marine", the old 1991 version 6mm game. I finally have a full "Wraith" army (Iyanden supplement) with a single Spirit Seer as the only living Eldar of her dead Craftworld and pretty pleased about it. (Just to point out, I only run a single Wraith Knight and have two Wraith Lords so not so much of a power gamer, just wanted a nice themed army) Of course, going up against Dark Eldar with all those poison-ignore-T6-weapons would always be tricky, Kroot could be a problem and rending would hurt... but now with the marine Grav Weapons on the horizon, have I just completed something I can put on my shelf next to my 2500p Sisters of Battle? Or I am reading too much into the new rules and debate going on here on Dakka Dakka? Is Grav Weapons only something that will be used sometimes in some lists? Because I am seriously afraid that faced against an opponent with numerous Grav guns would be like facing a DE Venom spam, just smile, shake hands, concede and get a cup of coffee.

I am not trying to be negative (although I might come across as such) or interrupt this thread with an "Eldar" question but I should would love to hear from those who actually play C:SM since I will undoubtedly be facing some marines in the near future.

Regards: Agusto

Agusto wrote:
A question from a non C:SM-player... I have just finished painting an army that I have dreamt about since the early days of "Space Marine", the old 1991 version 6mm game. I finally have a full "Wraith" army (Iyanden supplement) with a single Spirit Seer as the only living Eldar of her dead Craftworld and pretty pleased about it. (Just to point out, I only run a single Wraith Knight and have two Wraith Lords so not so much of a power gamer, just wanted a nice themed army) Of course, going up against Dark Eldar with all those poison-ignore-T6-weapons would always be tricky, Kroot could be a problem and rending would hurt... but now with the marine Grav Weapons on the horizon, have I just completed something I can put on my shelf next to my 2500p Sisters of Battle? Or I am reading too much into the new rules and debate going on here on Dakka Dakka? Is Grav Weapons only something that will be used sometimes in some lists? Because I am seriously afraid that faced against an opponent with numerous Grav guns would be like facing a DE Venom spam, just smile, shake hands, concede and get a cup of coffee.

I am not trying to be negative (although I might come across as such) or interrupt this thread with an "Eldar" question but I should would love to hear from those who actually play C:SM since I will undoubtedly be facing some marines in the near future.

Regards: Agusto

I wouldn't worry yet, you may be ok, but again it's going to depend on the Meta.

A Marine army shouldn't be taking all Grav as it then severely handicaps them vs Horde and anything worse than 4+ Armour.

Puscifer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Smart Eldar players realize the value of ranged ST 10. ST 10 is power, and now with these grav guys running around, I expect to see it more. They one shot the cents, by the way. Fun, fun.

The suncannon is actually a weapon my BA find kinda meh. I'm more afraid of the thing in HTH. But heavy d cannons can blow up predators, etc.

I dont' know if the LR is good or not. If you don't have one, you will never get slow and purposeful models within grav range of riptides and wraithknights against good players.

Is the Heavy D a blast?

No, but the D-cannons do provide something the Eldar don't have. Which is long ranged anti-tank.

Eldar can already kill infantry well enough with Shurican so the Suncannon is kinda redundant actually. And if you MUST destroy a unit of terminators you still have Fire Dragons, who are better against vehicles to boot.

The Heavy D-cannon can kill even a Landraider from across the table. While being on an insanely durable platform that only needs to toe into a forest to get a cover save.

If you're worried about grav weapons, just know that they are more expensive than melta, about equivalent to plasma unless they're standing still to shoot, and only come one per squad of tactical marines.

Sternguard can take 2 grav guns and combi-gravs (this is what I'd use sternguard for anymore).

The only thing with gravcannons are centurions and you have the perfect counter to them. Str 10 ID's them.

Waveserpents are a great place to put wraith guard if you're worried about getting shot down. Plus, the flamer variety is always effective at taking down pretty much anything except Iron Armed Tyranid MCs.

Don't get your hopes down, be proud of your army and make it work!

Thanks for the quick replies... and seriously, am I still on Dakka Dakka? Nice, friendly and encouraging feedback? What has the world come to?

Yeah, I wouldn't worry about this C:SM codex at all. Equip your Wraithknight with the D-cannons and carry on.

Now the Orks and Nids may shake things up a bit.

The Double Heavy WraithCannons on the Wraithknight is really the best loadout. The Suncannon is pretty redundant with the rest of the Eldar list. I recently built two Wriathknights, a Suncannon/Shield/Scatter Laser and a Double Heavy Wriathcannon one. I have the two new Heavy Wriathcannons sitting on the desk to be painted as a replacement for the Suncannon. Ranged S10 is great, a melee brute is great, etc.

I don't forsee Wraithknights having much to fear from Grav Centurions.

I don't thing GravCannon/GravAmp will be the preferred loadout for Centurions, I expect that will be TLLC/ML as a mobile AT/AntiMC unit especially with Nids on the horizon and more 3+ MCs. Compare a unit of TLLC/ML Cents, 260 with splitfire vs 240 for a Wraithknight. The Centurions will pump out much more firepower, albeit as a slightly lower quality, at a longer range sacrificing T8, JumpMC mobility, for a 2+, and greater ease of cover. Hell, unlike the Wriathknight Dev Cents will have at least a passable option for an oncoming horde(ML Blasts). Doubling the points cost for a semieffective delivery method seems foolish and doubt it will achieve much success.

I expect we may see a Buffmander joining TLLC/ML Cents as an effective option offering a 2+, multiple wounds, and two ID LOS drones.

I see bikes and sternguard as the truly effective deployment options for grav weapons. LotD with a CombiGrav/Plasma, PlasmaGun, and Plasma Cannon could be effective as well for DSing and evaporating something tasty, but that serves an entirely different purpose than a true Grav unit as it has a reliable DS and SnP.

Looking more and more at the Centurions, the more I'm thinking they are not worth it.

While I've given my tactical opinions on which armies Grav Cents are useful against, the 24" range hurts them a lot, as does the fact that they are useless against the Horde Armies.

I don't like the LC/ML variant at all. Durable? Yes, but not worth the points.

The HB Variant is also not great.

TAC lists are very difficult with this book. You can't prep for the top three - CD, Tau and Eldar. You can be good against one or two of those lists, but ultimately you will lose against another.

CSM lists though, the Marines now have a chance, but it's still slim and you MUST take the Grav Cents.

I'm four games into testing so far and while that's not a great number to come to a conclusion, Grav Cents have won all four games for me cs MEQ and TEQ.

I think the marines can bury CSM with triple or quadruple Stormraven builds too. No grav cents necessary. Use grav bikers on the plague marines and watch them QQ. There's a thing: Ironhands Stormraven lists. Stormravens can be almost as slick as helldrakes. No, even with IWND, the Stormraven is still overpriced.

Martel732 wrote:
I think the marines can bury CSM with triple or quadruple Stormraven builds too. No grav cents necessary. Use grav bikers on the plague marines and watch them QQ. There's a thing: Ironhands Stormraven lists. Stormravens can be almost as slick as helldrakes. No, even with IWND, the Stormraven is still overpriced.

I don't plan on ever fielding the Raven... Waaaaay too expensive.

IH Talons though... Oh wait... They can't survive a hit.

what I like about this codex the most right now is that my army dropped almost 150 pts!

I know Tigurious can take divination, but regular space marine librarians can't. In this instance, I really prefer Dark Angel librarians.

If you use a jump pack libby like I do, telepathy is no joke.

Are they that good?
Because I am wondering what to do with my newly bought Sevrin-Loth /w JP.

Well, telepathy can lock up squads. Psychic scream can do nasty things on a bad roll. Invisibility is quite nice. So is hallucinate. It's not divination, but the price is right

Faq came out seems that the command squad can have special weapons, 5 grav guns on a relentless platform equals 15 grav shots! Add in scout moves with either Raven Guard or Khan and you will kill any riptide or mc with a armor save turn 1.

Hmm, good idea.
Would come down to 120 for the axe and JP.
I also like the Primary power, it kills MC's.

What about Special Issue Wargear?

What is the point on the FAQ of allowing pistol to swap for chainswords. Just more evidence that no one at GW actually plays their own game.

I'm just going to have to write my own sm codex as what it should have been. Then get it approved by every TO in the country!

 Fulcrum wrote:
What is the point on the FAQ of allowing pistol to swap for chainswords. Just more evidence that no one at GW actually plays their own game.

I'm just going to have to write my own sm codex as what it should have been. Then get it approved by every TO in the country!

That way they can then swap the melee weapon for a special weapon in the armory.

This is also how it was done in the DA codex.

Haha so they didn't word it to allow the bolt pistol to be swapped out? Didn't even notice that. At least there's not as many blatant mistakes as there was in DA on release.

You shouldn't be able to buy Eternal Warrior. That is just annoying, in my opinion. Adding cool special rules isn't a problem, but Eternal Warrior is for the rarest and most indomitable warriors in the galaxy. Just a little grievance, but still.

 Fulcrum wrote:
Haha so they didn't word it to allow the bolt pistol to be swapped out? Didn't even notice that. At least there's not as many blatant mistakes as there was in DA on release.

They did it that way so sternguard can't keep the bolter and still grab a special weapon. Was hoping they would errata the pistol as a swap for just that reason, but alas GW hates me (as evidenced by them teasing me with heavy flamer tacticals in the White Dwarf).

Martel732 wrote:
Okay geniuses. Have I imagined MLs accomplishing absolutely nothing? What exactly are the good for other than IDing T4 models with 3+ armor?

Well it partially depends on which army you're using for comparative context, because IF gets Tank Hunters and SW can take a ton of them very cheaply, but generally:
1. AV13 and lower vehicles
2. MCs with 3+ saves (which is most of them)
3. Most elite infantry (everything that doesn't have a 2+ save, which, again, is most things)
4. Hordes

In addition, they are the only heavy weapon that can take an anti-flying missile. I do think the total cost for ML and Flakk is 5 points too expensive, they should be 10 and 10 or 15 and 5, but depending on if you've got the slots in the FOC or want to spend the points on a flyer, they can be a good buy.

They need other tools around them because otherwise the periodic quadtide and tri-raider list will be very tough to handle, but they have a lot of versatility. They do a lot of things well. The problem is they don't do one or two things super well, and everyone wants them to do one or two things super well instead of a bunch of stuff decently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fulcrum wrote:
Haha so they didn't word it to allow the bolt pistol to be swapped out? Didn't even notice that. At least there's not as many blatant mistakes as there was in DA on release.

I mean, the unspecified melee weapon rule on 51, if you follow the breadcrumbs logically, means that bolt pistols have to be melee weapons, but GW probably isn't that clever, or just opted for the easy answer instead of explaining it and verifying it.

I have to disagree on hordes. Frag missiles are terrible.

 CKO wrote:
Faq came out seems that the command squad can have special weapons, 5 grav guns on a relentless platform equals 15 grav shots! Add in scout moves with either Raven Guard or Khan and you will kill any riptide or mc with a armor save turn 1.

This.

I thought Bike Squads with 9 Grav Gun shots for 125pts were going to be rough, 15 for 210pts is a pretty good buy and a pretty hard counter to some of the big nasties out there.

Actually, as I write this I'm not as concerned about the Command Squads with Grav Weapons, the Standard scoring Squads will be nastier and more points efficient albeit with reduced T3+ firepower.

I see the Biker Command Squad with a couple of Grav Guns, couple of Storm Shields, Apothecary, a pair of Lightning Claws led by a Shield Eternal/Thunderhammer/Artificer Armor Chaper Master on a Bike being absolutely nasty.



The word on C:SM... Bikes are in, Bikes with Grav are just Gravy.

IMO a White Scars list led by a Beatstick Chapter Master(Bike, Shield Eternal, Thunder Hammer, Artificer Armor) with a Grav/Storm Shield/Lightning Claw/Apothecary Bike Command Squad with Khan, a Second Grav Command Squad, and mixed Troop Bike Squads will be about the nastiest SM build I can see right now. Although Khan won't be required. 24" is enough to guarentee target priority and T2 Shoot Assault. It'd be hand for redeployment... I'm thinking a Bike ML2 Libby would actually be more useful here.

I already got 5 more bikes off ebay. I will strip them and bring into the Raven guard fold. Or maybe run them as "Red Scars" detachment.

So everyone is going with Bikes and Grav?

I think I'm going to buck the trend on this one, it seems to be too flimsy for me.

I can see that you get lots of bikes in 1000 pts, but how does it hold up to Drakespam? How does it cope with a Serpent full of Scythe Wraiths?

While the Grav Bike lists I've seen are versatile, they are not fool proof and have glaring weaknesses.

I"m not spamming them. I'm using 10 max in a White Scar detachment. I'm still bringing AA. I'm counting on Tau and Eldar to hold off the Drakespam.

I might also build Stormraven spam if I can get some cheap Stormravens.

Martel732 wrote:
cheap Stormravens.

If you find any, let me know. I want to know that they actually exists. Even through online discounters and Ebay, they are still fething expensive.

Martel732 wrote:
I"m not spamming them. I'm using 10 max in a White Scar detachment. I'm still bringing AA. I'm counting on Tau and Eldar to hold off the Drakespam.

I might also build Stormraven spam if I can get some cheap Stormravens.

Ahhhh fair enough, that seems to be ok.

As for Ravenspam, is that even a thing?

The Raven is a beast, but spamming them is not something I want to do.

Yeah, it's probably the best BA tourney build.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, it's probably the best BA tourney build.

I suppose it has some big advantages in that you don't really need any other transports or tanks or even flyers as the Raven gives three of these things in one package.

It even transports Dreads, which aren't great, but can be useful.

Hey guys, I just noticed a subtle change that makes Thunderfires even better than before!

Bolster Defenses - now refers to "a piece of terrain" instead of just ruins so if you take multiple TFCs you can bolster several pieces and they can be any type. (you cannot bolster the same piece twice and it cannot be a piece you purchased).

 Kolath wrote:
Hey guys, I just noticed a subtle change that makes Thunderfires even better than before!

Bolster Defenses - now refers to "a piece of terrain" instead of just ruins so if you take multiple TFCs you can bolster several pieces and they can be any type. (you cannot bolster the same piece twice and it cannot be a piece you purchased).

Not a bad idea, but would you need to take more than one, ever?

Puscifer wrote:

 Kolath wrote:
Hey guys, I just noticed a subtle change that makes Thunderfires even better than before!

Bolster Defenses - now refers to "a piece of terrain" instead of just ruins so if you take multiple TFCs you can bolster several pieces and they can be any type. (you cannot bolster the same piece twice and it cannot be a piece you purchased).

Not a bad idea, but would you need to take more than one, ever?

Need? No. Want? Yes. Which I do quite frequently.

Yeah, I regularly take two. Two was about the most I could reasonably expect to get good firing lanes for. But with them now being barrage and a therefore able to hit anything on the table indirectly, I am considering taking three.

 NickTheButcher wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

 Kolath wrote:
Hey guys, I just noticed a subtle change that makes Thunderfires even better than before!

Bolster Defenses - now refers to "a piece of terrain" instead of just ruins so if you take multiple TFCs you can bolster several pieces and they can be any type. (you cannot bolster the same piece twice and it cannot be a piece you purchased).

Not a bad idea, but would you need to take more than one, ever?

Need? No. Want? Yes. Which I do quite frequently.

I played a game this past weekend against a guy who used Iron Hands and two techmarines. To his credit, his vehicles were stupid hard to kill, and he was able to modify two pieces of terrain to make them 3+ and 4+, respectively.

I mean, I still beat him because my Tau just laugh at cover, but it was a neat idea.

Yea, against tau pathfinders are target numero uno.

 Leth wrote:
Yea, against tau pathfinders are target numero uno.

There's a Thunderfire cannon for that. S5 ignores cover and now has Barrage so it doesn't need line of sight. Roast some Pathfinders turn 1, then roast some Fire Warriors next turn.

 Wilytank wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Yea, against tau pathfinders are target numero uno.

There's a Thunderfire cannon for that. S5 ignores cover and now has Barrage so it doesn't need line of sight. Roast some Pathfinders turn 1, then roast some Fire Warriors next turn.

Yeah, that would work. Assuming you go first, of course. And you don't scatter too bad. And they don't use marker drones. Pathfinders are pretty weak outside of cover.

I'm liking a few things in the Dex so far.

I like that you can take multiple Chapter Masters for multiple Orbital Bombardments which you can throw out first turn.

Double tanking Iron Hands Chapter Masters also looks pretty solid.

TFC's are even better in this dex.

Tigirius is useful in multiple ways, buffing through Div, reserves manipulation possibly coupled with Gaze.

Is anyone thinking that a Master level 2 Librarian on a bike with Iron Arm is going to be amazing...

Hopefully get Iron Arm and maybe taking prescience. Give him the Burning Blade Relic and AA armor with a storm shield.

Iron Arm goes off with +3 to Strength and Toughness. He is going to be Strength 10 with the burning blade since it adds +3 Strength and +3 strength from iron arm and Toughess 8 being on a bike. And with Prescience you are rerolling to hit with a 2+/3++ saves.

Also you could get warp speed and endurance. Thoughts?

MadmanMSU wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Yea, against tau pathfinders are target numero uno.

There's a Thunderfire cannon for that. S5 ignores cover and now has Barrage so it doesn't need line of sight. Roast some Pathfinders turn 1, then roast some Fire Warriors next turn.

Yeah, that would work. Assuming you go first, of course. And you don't scatter too bad. And they don't use marker drones. Pathfinders are pretty weak outside of cover.

And provided the Pathfinders aren't on the first floor of a ruin.

Space Marine librarians can't get divination. That's my thoughts. And your chances of getting iron arm are not good on a level 2 psyker.

My impressions of the new SM codex were mostly negative but not becuase of any huge grievence .. it was more because the codex as a whole failed to address the issues I seem to suffer from when playing SM. I play Primarily Eldar, then SM, and I've recently started working up my CSM army.

What this codex has done for me is basically kick SM back to 3rd spot on my list of "likely to play" armies.

Point reduction on Tac Marines was not good, it was expected. ML is still laughably overpriced. Tac Marines should be able to use Heavy Flamers... they have officially released a model for that in the Sterngaurd Squad which could be easy to proxy, but the rules clearly say that the HF is for Sterngaurd only. WTF?.

Grav Weapons are largely useless IMO since they don't offer anything new to the list. Between the Bolter/Plasma/Metla options Tac Marines can still take down whatever you kit them for, I see no reason why the grav gun is preferable to any of those options.

Centurions are silly looking IMO but wouldn't really be so bad if they were less point heavy. That same role would have been better filled IMO by 6 Terminators instead of 3 bigger guys with 2w each, though the weapon loadouts would have to be figured in.

The Cptain got a nice boost and I like that he is not affordable and won't get waffle-stomped by other HQ's (as badly).



But what really killed this for me... is that they did absolutely nothing to fix the massivegap in assault play in 6e. SM players have even less reason to take assault units (which are the most visceral and intense part of the lore). The Vanguard Veterans rules are ridiculous now... I can't fathom anyone using them for their cost. The fact that all chapters can use Storm Ravens is cool, but hardly a fix.. assaulting as any army other than the Eldar/Dark Eldar will still just get you dead.

I don't have the new codex yet but they don't have access to divination?

And I agree that your chances of getting it are low but there is still a chance. =)

That's quite ironic.
Many people actually think Grav is beginning to look overpowered and you don't see a reason why it's preferable over other weapons?

@Kemp, no they cannot take Divination.
It's the only reason why I haven't dumped all my BA-models into a big can of paint.

You don't have to repaint.

You missed landspeeder storms = dedicated transports. Do Tau Blacksun filters protect from blindness?

Grav Rifles on bikes is going to put out a lot of hurt while still being able to shoot up hordes alright if need be. A relentless Grav weapon is good stuff indeed.

Martel732 wrote:
You don't have to repaint.
You missed landspeeder storms = dedicated transports. Do Tau Blacksun filters protect from blindness?

They do :(
And I won't repaint them, as most of the models are 50+ percent black already.

My plan is swap between Ravenguard (to keep that BA-feeling alive till the codex) and White Scars.

However, I'm not convinced that the codex is really a match for Eldar/Tau at all. The new toys are nice, but I think ultimately futile. GW needs to do more maths. But GW hates the maths, because they can't handwaive the maths away, because the maths never lie in the end. As long as you ask the right questions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kangodo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You don't have to repaint.
You missed landspeeder storms = dedicated transports. Do Tau Blacksun filters protect from blindness?

They do :(
And I won't repaint them, as most of the models are 50+ percent black already.

My plan is swap between Ravenguard (to keep that BA-feeling alive till the codex) and White Scars.

Awesome; they gave the storm useless equipment. At least it doesn't have a top, so my guys can get out and beat face. Seriously, BA should just saw the top off all their Rhinos and tank hits to the top of the tank with their power armor.

What makes the Tau and Eldar so strong?
Tau => Riptides and ML's.
Eldar => ???

I think the new Thunderfire cannons are great to take out those Pathfinders while the Grav-spam takes out Riptides.

Edit: What unit would you want to blind?

I want to blind all of them. The whole army if I could I feel that marines can take on BS 1 Tau.

You can blind the Markerlight-granting units?
That way they have to shoot at BS3 and cannot ignore cover (your bikes LOVE that)

Okay so has noone noticed annihilators are down 25pts?????????????????????

ANNIHILATE THEMMMMMM