Depending on the source you're reading, Primarchs have been killed by regular scrubs during a standard boarding action, or captured by Dark Eldar and kept in their fighting arenas for thousands of years.
Others seem to think that one eccentric Necron Lord has one in his collection.
The thing to remember about the Primarchs is that while they are said to have done all these really super-amazing things... those are legends and myths. Stories that have grown in the telling. The reality of their accomplishments, while still amazing, are much more grounded.
Depending on the source you're reading, Primarchs have been killed by regular scrubs during a standard boarding action, or captured by Dark Eldar and kept in their fighting arenas for thousands of years.
Others seem to think that one eccentric Necron Lord has one in his collection.
The thing to remember about the Primarchs is that while they are said to have done all these really super-amazing things... those are legends and myths. Stories that have grown in the telling. The reality of their accomplishments, while still amazing, are much more grounded.
same can be said about the sisters..... are you actually trying to say a sister can beat a primarch? like horus in 1 on 1 jesus christ
LightKing PMed me with this bizarre, out of the blue assertion (with no provocation form my part) about how Primarchs can't be beaten by anyone.
I responded by asserting that anyone who can land a headshot with a meltagun will kill a primarch in a single blow, just like they would kill anyone else. Firepower is, after all, the great equalizer. It doesn't matter how tough you are when you're being vaporized.
Melissia wrote: LightKing PMed me with this bizarre, out of the blue assertion (with no provocation form my part) about how Primarchs can't be beaten by anyone.
I responded by asserting that anyone who can land a headshot with a meltagun will kill a primarch in a single blow, just like they would kill anyone else.
you dont understand how much more powerful a primarch is then... primarchs are able to mow down marines, 10s of them 20s of them
Melissia wrote: LightKing PMed me with this bizarre, out of the blue assertion (with no provocation form my part) about how Primarchs can't be beaten by anyone.
I responded by asserting that anyone who can land a headshot with a meltagun will kill a primarch in a single blow, just like they would kill anyone else. Firepower is, after all, the great equalizer. It doesn't matter how tough you are when you're being vaporized.
Melissia wrote: LightKing PMed me with this bizarre, out of the blue assertion (with no provocation form my part) about how Primarchs can't be beaten by anyone.
I responded by asserting that anyone who can land a headshot with a meltagun will kill a primarch in a single blow, just like they would kill anyone else.
you dont understand how much more powerful a primarch is then... primarchs are able to mow down marines, 10s of them 20s of them
Yes, they are. But Marines are not Meltaguns.
Though perhaps Primarchs are resistant against Meltas, they are pretty darn tough after all, the bigger gun principle works.
Edit: Yes, exactly, you saw what he/she/it/whatever meant.
Melissia wrote: LightKing PMed me with this bizarre, out of the blue assertion (with no provocation form my part) about how Primarchs can't be beaten by anyone.
I responded by asserting that anyone who can land a headshot with a meltagun will kill a primarch in a single blow, just like they would kill anyone else.
you dont understand how much more powerful a primarch is then... primarchs are able to mow down marines, 10s of them 20s of them
Yes, they are. But Marines are not Meltaguns.
Though perhaps Primarchs are resistant against Meltas, they are pretty darn tough after all, the bigger gun principle works.
Edit: Yes, exactly, you saw what he/she/it/whatever meant.
can someone tell me when primarchs were unable to use meltaguns?
how am i trolling.... some of you are 40k fans and yet are saying sisters are equal to primarchs in combat, i can accept that they are = to some extend with marines, but primarchs come on
Being able to shoot someone in the face with a meltagun does not make someone "equal" to another person in combat.
If Bruce Lee and I were going to fight (assuming he was still alive and all that, of course), I am laughably out-classed by Bruce Lee in hand to hand combat.
I do, however, own a shotgun. So I can kill Bruce Lee from 75 yards away without breaking a sweat, because bullets beat kung fu.
Firepower is, as mentioned previously, a great equalizer. I don't need to be faster, stronger, or tougher than you if the weapon I have in my hands can disintegrate you instantly.
Psienesis wrote: Being able to shoot someone in the face with a meltagun does not make someone "equal" to another person in combat.
If Bruce Lee and I were going to fight (assuming he was still alive and all that, of course), I am laughably out-classed by Bruce Lee in hand to hand combat.
I do, however, own a shotgun. So I can kill Bruce Lee from 75 yards away without breaking a sweat, because bullets beat kung fu.
Firepower is, as mentioned previously, a great equalizer. I don't need to be faster, stronger, or tougher than you if the weapon I have in my hands can disintegrate you instantly.
i meant close combat..... you think a battle sister could beat angron in close combat
using the "firepower=great equalizer" is a pathetic excuse...... primarchs can use the same weapons if want
the fact is in close combat, H2H, melee a primarch destroys a sister
Right, because when I said "a meltagun to the face is a very common weakness", I was talking about hitting the person with the meltagun, not firing it while pointing the business end at their face.
Melissia wrote: Right, because when I said "a meltagun to the face is a very common weakness", I was talking about hitting the person with the meltagun, not firing it while pointing the business end at their face.
even with a meltagun...... a sister/meltagun vs.a primarch/meltagun... would still be in the advantage of primarchs
primarchs are have superior strength, speed, reflexes,etc.....
Psienesis wrote: Being able to shoot someone in the face with a meltagun does not make someone "equal" to another person in combat.
If Bruce Lee and I were going to fight (assuming he was still alive and all that, of course), I am laughably out-classed by Bruce Lee in hand to hand combat.
I do, however, own a shotgun. So I can kill Bruce Lee from 75 yards away without breaking a sweat, because bullets beat kung fu.
Firepower is, as mentioned previously, a great equalizer. I don't need to be faster, stronger, or tougher than you if the weapon I have in my hands can disintegrate you instantly.
i meant close combat..... you think a battle sister could beat angron in close combat
using the "firepower=great equalizer" is a pathetic excuse...... primarchs can use the same weapons if want
the fact is in close combat, H2H, melee a primarch destroys a sister
Well of course a Primarch wins in close combat, no one said otherwise. What we are saying is that anyone who is lucky enough to stick a melta gun down anyones throat and pull the trigger, that bugger is dead, Primarch or not. If someone gets a direct hit with a thunder hammer onto an unserspecting primarch he is down for the count, but probably not dead. Primarchs aren't invincible, if one is on planet when it blows up he is dead, if he gets an alpha plus level psyker angry he is dead, if he takes a power klaw repeatedly to the head he is dead. Live with it
I dunno, yesterday I was accused of being a blind fanboy who didn't understand the setting because I dared compare crappy Black Library books to crappy Star Wars books.
I think that Sister = Primarch in a BATTLE. As in, give both equipment, (including guns), GO!
I think a Primarch would probably beat a sister to a pulp in hand-to-hand...
....which is exactly why guns were invented.
This thread is like saying "MY FRIEND SAID PEOPLE WERE EQUAL TO LIONS!"
"Well, we do use GUNS. And have civilization."
"YEAH but a LION could pulp us in Close Combat!"
"Well, that's a given, but seriously, check your temperature - you're overheating."
Melissia wrote: Right, because when I said "a meltagun to the face is a very common weakness", I was talking about hitting the person with the meltagun, not firing it while pointing the business end at their face.
Psienesis wrote: Being able to shoot someone in the face with a meltagun does not make someone "equal" to another person in combat.
If Bruce Lee and I were going to fight (assuming he was still alive and all that, of course), I am laughably out-classed by Bruce Lee in hand to hand combat.
I do, however, own a shotgun. So I can kill Bruce Lee from 75 yards away without breaking a sweat, because bullets beat kung fu.
Firepower is, as mentioned previously, a great equalizer. I don't need to be faster, stronger, or tougher than you if the weapon I have in my hands can disintegrate you instantly.
i meant close combat..... you think a battle sister could beat angron in close combat
using the "firepower=great equalizer" is a pathetic excuse...... primarchs can use the same weapons if want
the fact is in close combat, H2H, melee a primarch destroys a sister
Well of course a Primarch wins in close combat, no one said otherwise. What we are saying is that anyone who is lucky enough to stick a melta gun down anyones throat and pull the trigger, that bugger is dead, Primarch or not. If someone gets a direct hit with a thunder hammer onto an unserspecting primarch he is down for the count, but probably not dead. Primarchs aren't invincible, if one is on planet when it blows up he is dead, if he gets an alpha plus level psyker angry he is dead, if he takes a power klaw repeatedly to the head he is dead. Live with it
what? Angron has mowed marines down, who most likely had weapons shooting at him......
When weapons are involved it all comes down to luck. I've known plenty of highly trained soldiers killed by some farmer in a Third-world hellhole armed with a forty-year-old AK-47.
Weltenwolf wrote: That's not luck, that's superior soviet technology.
Exalted. .. I know you're not serious, but part of the beauty of the AK-47 is that a third-world-country farmer with a gun older than him can still use it.
This X=Y because of *insert trivial reason here* line of reasoning in these topics is ridiculous. It's like saying a tank is the equivalent of a peasant, because that peasant might possibly have a RPG.
You can't just go off spouting out that sisters / Space Marines / the easter bunny are stronger than primarchs / the emperor / Duke Nukem, because there will always be certain conditions.
For example :
If BAMF goes hand to hand with *insert sacrifice here* = Primarch wins
If *insert sacrifice here* has a BFG = *insert sacrifice here* wins
If BAMF is fully armed and goes against 1000 *insert sacrifice here* = BAMF wins
If BAMF is arse naked and stoned out of his mind and goes against 1000 *insert sacrifice here* = *insert sacrifice here* wins.
Weltenwolf wrote: That's not luck, that's superior soviet technology.
Exalted. .. I know you're not serious, but part of the beauty of the AK-47 is that a third-world-country farmer with a gun older than him can still use it.
wasn't the ak-47 a blatant rip off of a german design though?
Weltenwolf wrote: That's not luck, that's superior soviet technology.
Exalted. .. I know you're not serious, but part of the beauty of the AK-47 is that a third-world-country farmer with a gun older than him can still use it.
I'm 50% serious. The AK is a superior design in it's ease of fabrication & use, it's longevity and the punch it packs. A wonderful weapon, it's just a shame that everybody around the world including children is running around with one and shooting each other.
Unit1126PLL wrote: but part of the beauty of the AK-47 is that a third-world-country farmer with a gun older than him can still use it.
Well, that's the whole thing with guns. And crossbows before that. It didn't take years to make a random peasant a proficient user like with a bow or sword, he could be trained in days or a few weeks. Hell, the pope himself tried to make Europeans quit using the crossbow against fellow christians and only use it on pagans. Knights were getting moved down by mooks and rebelling peasants. A gun really is a great equalizer - I have no chance against a MA master in close combat but if I shoot him before he gets there he's just as dead as if I killed him with my bare hands. And if I win I can tell everyone why it was such a great honorable victory!
All the people saying that the AK-47 is a blatant rip off- it really isn't.
The rip-off comes from the basic design, e.g. the gas-piston operation being on of the barrel. It's basically the same design possessed by things like the G3 and the SA-80.
The major difference, and part of the reason the AK-47 is so amazing, is a high tolerance within its machine parts.
EDIT: Admittedly the SA-80 is a bullpup, but in the 'gas-piston-above-barrel' category, it's fine.
Primarchs have survived getting shot at by Titans and have been hit by powerfists and point blank shots from blastmasters (One of Fulgrim's captains shot him with his blastmaster from a few feet away. Fulgrim tanked it and disintegrated one of the captains with a punch. Another captain in terminator armor punched him in the face after shooting him in the mouth with a sonic blaster, it did nothing). Angron survived getting buried under thousands of tons of rubble. Twice. Guilliman survived a blast from a starship that vaporized the bridge he was standing in and floated around in space for hours with no helmet on. Fulgrim was shot by a sniper rifle where the bullet hit in one ear and exited out the other side behind the other ear- he healed from it within hours.
So, no. A Cannoness would just die against a primarch, 10/10. Someone who isn't a Primarch needs either a phaseblade or psychic powers to defeat a Primarch.
Unit1126PLL wrote: but part of the beauty of the AK-47 is that a third-world-country farmer with a gun older than him can still use it.
Well, that's the whole thing with guns. And crossbows before that. It didn't take years to make a random peasant a proficient user like with a bow or sword, he could be trained in days or a few weeks. Hell, the pope himself tried to make Europeans quit using the crossbow against fellow christians and only use it on pagans. Knights were getting moved down by mooks and rebelling peasants. A gun really is a great equalizer - I have no chance against a MA master in close combat but if I shoot him before he gets there he's just as dead as if I killed him with my bare hands. And if I win I can tell everyone why it was such a great honorable victory!
BlaxicanX wrote: Primarchs have survived getting shot at by Titans and have been hit by powerfists and point blank shots from blastmasters (One of Fulgrim's captains shot him with his blastmaster from a few feet away. Fulgrim tanked it and disintegrated one of the captains with a punch. Another captain in terminator armor punched him in the face after shooting him in the mouth with a sonic blaster, it did nothing). Angron survived getting buried under thousands of tons of rubble. Twice. Guilliman survived a blast from a starship that vaporized the bridge he was standing in and floated around in space for hours with no helmet on. Fulgrim was shot by a sniper rifle where the bullet hit in one ear and exited out the other side behind the other ear- he healed from it within hours.
So, no. A Cannoness would just die against a primarch, 10/10. Someone who isn't a Primarch needs either a phaseblade or psychic powers to defeat a Primarch.
Oh i get it, you really should remove the question mark and change is to Isn't in the thread title. You obviously only want people to agree with you, and will ignore other peoples opinions no matter what we say. I simply don;t like Primarchs in general, they are far to powerful. Guilliman being out in space and not dieing is ridiculous, his blood would expand in his vains and his head would explode, but aparantly plot armour also effects vains.
My point is no one is (Or at least, should be) invincible, so that would include Primarchs. And with how Melta's are discribed in Black Libary books, if you stick that down the gullet of a Raging Primarch and pull the trigger, it should atomize their entire body. But as said, plot armor>Logic
LightKing wrote: how am i trolling.... some of you are 40k fans and yet are saying sisters are equal to primarchs in combat, i can accept that they are = to some extend with marines, but primarchs come on
Nobody is saying they could go toe to toe with a primarch in single combat. The point she was making is that the weaponry is so ridiculously powerful that all it would take is one solid hit from a meltagun from a Sororitas or a Guardsman or even a scared civilian to incapacitate or even kill a primarch. You're an American, think of it like the American football saying, "Any given Sunday".
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Oh i get it, you really should remove the question mark and change is to Isn't in the thread title. You obviously only want people to agree with you, and will ignore other peoples opinions no matter what we say. I simply don;t like Primarchs in general, they are far to powerful. Guilliman being out in space and not dieing is ridiculous, his blood would expand in his vains and his head would explode, but aparantly plot armour also effects vains.
My point is no one is (Or at least, should be) invincible, so that would include Primarchs. And with how Melta's are discribed in Black Libary books, if you stick that down the gullet of a Raging Primarch and pull the trigger, it should atomize their entire body. But as said, plot armor>Logic
Actually, he doesn't have a question mark in the title.
BlaxicanX wrote: Primarchs have survived getting shot at by Titans and have been hit by powerfists and point blank shots from blastmasters (One of Fulgrim's captains shot him with his blastmaster from a few feet away. Fulgrim tanked it and disintegrated one of the captains with a punch. Another captain in terminator armor punched him in the face after shooting him in the mouth with a sonic blaster, it did nothing). Angron survived getting buried under thousands of tons of rubble. Twice. Guilliman survived a blast from a starship that vaporized the bridge he was standing in and floated around in space for hours with no helmet on. Fulgrim was shot by a sniper rifle where the bullet hit in one ear and exited out the other side behind the other ear- he healed from it within hours.
So, no. A Cannoness would just die against a primarch, 10/10. Someone who isn't a Primarch needs either a phaseblade or psychic powers to defeat a Primarch.
Cue the whining about Black Library.
thank you....
Please understand, if you look at it that way, that is fine. I too regard primarchs as on another level compared to all human forces. Granted, It's because my favorite is probably an alpha plus so when I look at it.... well yeah. And then some brutish wolf beating a man even distracted arguably makes them pretty mighty which then snowballs into the rest. The thing though is this is just me. 40k fluff has it so that everything is cannon. Is the tale of the primarchs canon? The tales of men under fire? An unreliable narrator speaking of the past? The 40k world blesses you with the freedom to ignore much of the fluff. Heck, quite a few look at 40k as not as grimdark as others whilst others regard it as hell where guardsman are pathetic weaklings that just toss more and more bodies into the fire and that is all they really are whilst marines are gods among men. In one book, a marine will march through everything and scoff at eery las shot whilst in another 10 marines can be downed by 20 guardsmen and 1v1 a guardsman can slay a terminator. We all like 40k, sometimes we can get at one another's throat but that is much like anything else. 40k permits you to see the world how you fit and pick the fluff you prefer. That being said, always remember that not everybody looks at guardsman, marines, eldar, and even primarchs the same. In some fluff, primarchs can crush mountains, can slaughter millions like they are jokes, survive crashing from space, evaporate foes with punches, and many more ludicrous things such as taking a plasma shot from a titan or barel holding back a titan's stomp all the while flying around and snapping the back of one of the mightier servants of khorne's back twice. Yet in other fluff a primarch is mighty but not to such a level. A lucky shot can pick them off just as easily as any other and primarchs fall to ordinary men from a stray bullet. Don't rage or gripe with others when they see the world differently then you. Each one is fit to their own sight, their own vision.
The world of 40k is a place where history might be a lie. Tales of thousands of years ago could be true, overstated, or perhaps even understated. Even as each BL book comeso ut, one knows not who writes the books and for what reasons. Read them as literal fact, read them as a tale to children to scare or entertain them. An internet forum that has spun something simple into something dramatic or made something horrific a joke. That's the world of 40k, where everything is cannon but not necessarily everything is true.
BlaxicanX wrote: Primarchs have survived getting shot at by Titans and have been hit by powerfists and point blank shots from blastmasters (One of Fulgrim's captains shot him with his blastmaster from a few feet away. Fulgrim tanked it and disintegrated one of the captains with a punch. Another captain in terminator armor punched him in the face after shooting him in the mouth with a sonic blaster, it did nothing). Angron survived getting buried under thousands of tons of rubble. Twice. Guilliman survived a blast from a starship that vaporized the bridge he was standing in and floated around in space for hours with no helmet on. Fulgrim was shot by a sniper rifle where the bullet hit in one ear and exited out the other side behind the other ear- he healed from it within hours.
So, no. A Cannoness would just die against a primarch, 10/10. Someone who isn't a Primarch needs either a phaseblade or psychic powers to defeat a Primarch.
Cue the whining about Black Library.
thank you....
Please understand, if you look at it that way, that is fine. I too regard primarchs as on another level compared to all human forces. Granted, It's because my favorite is probably an alpha plus so when I look at it.... well yeah. And then some brutish wolf beating a man even distracted arguably makes them pretty mighty which then snowballs into the rest. The thing though is this is just me. 40k fluff has it so that everything is cannon. Is the tale of the primarchs canon? The tales of men under fire? An unreliable narrator speaking of the past? The 40k world blesses you with the freedom to ignore much of the fluff. Heck, quite a few look at 40k as not as grimdark as others whilst others regard it as hell where guardsman are pathetic weaklings that just toss more and more bodies into the fire and that is all they really are whilst marines are gods among men. In one book, a marine will march through everything and scoff at eery las shot whilst in another 10 marines can be downed by 20 guardsmen and 1v1 a guardsman can slay a terminator. We all like 40k, sometimes we can get at one another's throat but that is much like anything else. 40k permits you to see the world how you fit and pick the fluff you prefer. That being said, always remember that not everybody looks at guardsman, marines, eldar, and even primarchs the same. In some fluff, primarchs can crush mountains, can slaughter millions like they are jokes, survive crashing from space, evaporate foes with punches, and many more ludicrous things such as taking a plasma shot from a titan or barel holding back a titan's stomp all the while flying around and snapping the back of one of the mightier servants of khorne's back twice. Yet in other fluff a primarch is mighty but not to such a level. A lucky shot can pick them off just as easily as any other and primarchs fall to ordinary men from a stray bullet. Don't rage or gripe with others when they see the world differently then you. Each one is fit to their own sight, their own vision.
then you can pretty much say any 40k fluff could be true or not, same thing applies to sisters or marines
So why doesn't a Primarch survive a meltagun in the face... That's just silly. We've seen them survive even more insane stuff. I mean Lorgar did survive two plasma shots... from a Titan.
It's a silly conversation. Fluffwise a Cannones will never win... plotarmor. Gamewise they can... with quite some luck.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: So why doesn't a Primarch survive a meltagun in the face... That's just silly. We've seen them survive even more insane stuff. I mean Lorgar did survive two plasma shots... from a Titan.
And yet Horus, believed even by most primarchs to be the best of them, was felled by a sickly guardsman/corpse with an alien sword.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: So why doesn't a Primarch survive a meltagun in the face... That's just silly. We've seen them survive even more insane stuff. I mean Lorgar did survive two plasma shots... from a Titan.
And yet Horus, believed even by most primarchs to be the best of them, was felled by a sickly guardsman/corpse with an alien sword.
and yet Magnus destroyed hundreds of space wolves with his mind
But is that such a bad thing? Let your mind go mad. Make the impossible possible and shatter realities. Forge your own path, your own stories. Ones to be forgotten and others to be remembered. You are free to make of it whatever you wish (as long as you make sure to keep some spikes and skulls around ). Each game can be a recount, a competitive game, or your own narrative. A death on the board game doesn't necessarily mean death. Retreat, incapacitation, recovering a valuable plasma gun that overheated... what your mind creates is what has happened for you. The other individual might interpret differently but so be it. If you don't want a melta to kill a primarch, then think such a way but always remember there are others out there that prefer the notion that a primarch is not as godly as that and would be felled by such a powerful shot.
StarTrotter wrote: But is that such a bad thing? Let your mind go mad. Make the impossible possible and shatter realities. Forge your own path, your own stories. Ones to be forgotten and others to be remembered. You are free to make of it whatever you wish (as long as you make sure to keep some spikes and skulls around ). Each game can be a recount, a competitive game, or your own narrative. A death on the board game doesn't necessarily mean death. Retreat, incapacitation, recovering a valuable plasma gun that overheated... what your mind creates is what has happened for you. The other individual might interpret differently but so be it. If you don't want a melta to kill a primarch, then think such a way but always remember there are others out there that prefer the notion that a primarch is not as godly as that and would be felled by such a powerful shot.
And yes, Tzeentch is best god :U
so its pretty much open up to interpretation.....their is no true canon in 40k?
StarTrotter wrote: But is that such a bad thing? Let your mind go mad. Make the impossible possible and shatter realities. Forge your own path, your own stories. Ones to be forgotten and others to be remembered. You are free to make of it whatever you wish (as long as you make sure to keep some spikes and skulls around ). Each game can be a recount, a competitive game, or your own narrative. A death on the board game doesn't necessarily mean death. Retreat, incapacitation, recovering a valuable plasma gun that overheated... what your mind creates is what has happened for you. The other individual might interpret differently but so be it. If you don't want a melta to kill a primarch, then think such a way but always remember there are others out there that prefer the notion that a primarch is not as godly as that and would be felled by such a powerful shot.
And yes, Tzeentch is best god :U
so its pretty much open up to interpretation.....their is no true canon in 40k?
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: So why doesn't a Primarch survive a meltagun in the face... That's just silly. We've seen them survive even more insane stuff. I mean Lorgar did survive two plasma shots... from a Titan.
And yet Horus, believed even by most primarchs to be the best of them, was felled by a sickly guardsman/corpse with an alien sword.
and yet Magnus destroyed hundreds of space wolves with his mind
This is exactly the point everyone is trying to make to you, you realize this right? The primarchs are clearly beings of immense power but against a powerful enough weapon, or caught off guard, or any other of a near infinite set of circumstances could lead to them being killed by a normal human.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: So why doesn't a Primarch survive a meltagun in the face... That's just silly. We've seen them survive even more insane stuff. I mean Lorgar did survive two plasma shots... from a Titan.
And yet Horus, believed even by most primarchs to be the best of them, was felled by a sickly guardsman/corpse with an alien sword.
and yet Magnus destroyed hundreds of space wolves with his mind
This is exactly the point everyone is trying to make to you, you realize this right? The primarchs are beings of immense power but against a powerful enough weapon, or caught off guard, or any other of a near infinite set of circumstances could lead to them being killed by a normal human.
but i didnt even mean using weapons in the debate..i meant H2H/Melee
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: So why doesn't a Primarch survive a meltagun in the face... That's just silly. We've seen them survive even more insane stuff. I mean Lorgar did survive two plasma shots... from a Titan.
And yet Horus, believed even by most primarchs to be the best of them, was felled by a sickly guardsman/corpse with an alien sword.
and yet Magnus destroyed hundreds of space wolves with his mind
This is exactly the point everyone is trying to make to you, you realize this right? The primarchs are beings of immense power but against a powerful enough weapon, or caught off guard, or any other of a near infinite set of circumstances could lead to them being killed by a normal human.
but i didnt even mean using weapons in the debate..i meant H2H/Melee
Yeah, and the powerful weapon I mentioned that defeated Horus was a melee weapon.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: So why doesn't a Primarch survive a meltagun in the face... That's just silly. We've seen them survive even more insane stuff. I mean Lorgar did survive two plasma shots... from a Titan.
And yet Horus, believed even by most primarchs to be the best of them, was felled by a sickly guardsman/corpse with an alien sword.
and yet Magnus destroyed hundreds of space wolves with his mind
This is exactly the point everyone is trying to make to you, you realize this right? The primarchs are beings of immense power but against a powerful enough weapon, or caught off guard, or any other of a near infinite set of circumstances could lead to them being killed by a normal human.
but i didnt even mean using weapons in the debate..i meant H2H/Melee
Yeah, and the powerful weapon I mentioned that defeated Horus was a melee weapon.
and Angron mowed marines down with his ax, what are you trying to prove man?
and yet Magnus destroyed hundreds of space wolves with his mind
And yet Magnus got his ass handed by just 5 or so Space Wolves.
Is this the book where TS invade the SW base book? (just curious and taking a guess) I loved it cause Magnus kept on being like oh yeah I'm a alpha plus primarch daemon prince I forgot wait He's still alive! Wait where did he come from!? (to me at least. I just kinda found it funny)
Nurgle had nothing to do with the sword. Nurgle had infected the guardsman wielding it, not the sword itself. The sword just happened to be an extremely potent weapon.
Orblivion wrote: Nurgle had nothing to do with the sword. Nurgle had infected the guardsman wielding it, not the sword itself. The sword just happened to be an extremely potent weapon.
It happened to be the Anathame, arguably one of the most lethal close combat weapons in the galaxy.
Orblivion wrote: Nurgle had nothing to do with the sword. Nurgle had infected the guardsman wielding it, not the sword itself. The sword just happened to be an extremely potent weapon.
Fulgrim cut up a tank..... Angron avoided being crushed by a Titan...
Automatically Appended Next Post: it just seems like their is 2 groups of people on this debate
group a= trying to prove reasons why primarchs are weak
group b= trying to prove reasons why primarchs are strong
StarTrotter wrote: But is that such a bad thing? Let your mind go mad. Make the impossible possible and shatter realities. Forge your own path, your own stories. Ones to be forgotten and others to be remembered. You are free to make of it whatever you wish (as long as you make sure to keep some spikes and skulls around ). Each game can be a recount, a competitive game, or your own narrative. A death on the board game doesn't necessarily mean death. Retreat, incapacitation, recovering a valuable plasma gun that overheated... what your mind creates is what has happened for you. The other individual might interpret differently but so be it. If you don't want a melta to kill a primarch, then think such a way but always remember there are others out there that prefer the notion that a primarch is not as godly as that and would be felled by such a powerful shot.
And yes, Tzeentch is best god :U
so its pretty much open up to interpretation.....their is no true canon in 40k?
Everything is canon.... but nothing is necessarily true or false. So go with it! Make of it what you will. Have fun and don't look back and let your mind weave the tale that fits you best. Make it where guns reign and sword fights are extremely rare. Make it where they vainly charge to glory! Or make it simply that those forces can reach cc and a lovely melee appears. Pick what is real and what is false and let your mind fill in the rest. It's a dark and silly silly world just don't forget the one true canon. No chaos vehicle is permitted to not have some spikes on it :U
This is the discription of that certain sword
"The Anathame was a sword impregnated with the power of the Chaos God Nurgle created by the mysterious Kinebrach"
Plus that whole chain of events were all orchestrated by Erebus.
See fluff like the Creed from Assasins Creed. "Nothing is true, everything is premitted."
StarTrotter wrote: But is that such a bad thing? Let your mind go mad. Make the impossible possible and shatter realities. Forge your own path, your own stories. Ones to be forgotten and others to be remembered. You are free to make of it whatever you wish (as long as you make sure to keep some spikes and skulls around ). Each game can be a recount, a competitive game, or your own narrative. A death on the board game doesn't necessarily mean death. Retreat, incapacitation, recovering a valuable plasma gun that overheated... what your mind creates is what has happened for you. The other individual might interpret differently but so be it. If you don't want a melta to kill a primarch, then think such a way but always remember there are others out there that prefer the notion that a primarch is not as godly as that and would be felled by such a powerful shot.
And yes, Tzeentch is best god :U
so its pretty much open up to interpretation.....their is no true canon in 40k?
Everything is canon.... but nothing is necessarily true or false. So go with it! Make of it what you will. Have fun and don't look back and let your mind weave the tale that fits you best. Make it where guns reign and sword fights are extremely rare. Make it where they vainly charge to glory! Or make it simply that those forces can reach cc and a lovely melee appears. Pick what is real and what is false and let your mind fill in the rest. It's a dark and silly silly world just don't forget the one true canon. No chaos vehicle is permitted to not have some spikes on it :U
do most 40k fans like this type of philosophy when it comes to lore, or would most people like to see a more consistent approach
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: This is the discription of that certain sword
"The Anathame was a sword impregnated with the power of the Chaos God Nurgle created by the mysterious Kinebrach"
Plus it was all orchestrated by Erebus.
See fluff like the Creed from Assasins Creed. "Nothing is true, everything is premitted."
Thats the description from the 40k wiki, which is complete and utter garbage. Read the novel it is from again, it was not a chaos weapon.
StarTrotter wrote: But is that such a bad thing? Let your mind go mad. Make the impossible possible and shatter realities. Forge your own path, your own stories. Ones to be forgotten and others to be remembered. You are free to make of it whatever you wish (as long as you make sure to keep some spikes and skulls around ). Each game can be a recount, a competitive game, or your own narrative. A death on the board game doesn't necessarily mean death. Retreat, incapacitation, recovering a valuable plasma gun that overheated... what your mind creates is what has happened for you. The other individual might interpret differently but so be it. If you don't want a melta to kill a primarch, then think such a way but always remember there are others out there that prefer the notion that a primarch is not as godly as that and would be felled by such a powerful shot.
And yes, Tzeentch is best god :U
so its pretty much open up to interpretation.....their is no true canon in 40k?
Everything is canon.... but nothing is necessarily true or false. So go with it! Make of it what you will. Have fun and don't look back and let your mind weave the tale that fits you best. Make it where guns reign and sword fights are extremely rare. Make it where they vainly charge to glory! Or make it simply that those forces can reach cc and a lovely melee appears. Pick what is real and what is false and let your mind fill in the rest. It's a dark and silly silly world just don't forget the one true canon. No chaos vehicle is permitted to not have some spikes on it :U
do most 40k fans like this type of philosophy when it comes to lore, or would most people like to see a more consistent approach
It doesn't really matter, because what we are given by GW is not consistent. Thats the problem.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: This is the discription of that certain sword "The Anathame was a sword impregnated with the power of the Chaos God Nurgle created by the mysterious Kinebrach" Plus that whole chain of events were all orchestrated by Erebus.
See fluff like the Creed from Assasins Creed. "Nothing is true, everything is premitted."
And it can be held by your useless Chaos Lord (if you believe the Murder Sword is the Anathame) in tomorrow's game.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: This is the discription of that certain sword
"The Anathame was a sword impregnated with the power of the Chaos God Nurgle created by the mysterious Kinebrach"
Plus that whole chain of events were all orchestrated by Erebus.
See fluff like the Creed from Assasins Creed. "Nothing is true, everything is premitted."
And ut can be held by your useless Chaos Lord {if you blieve the Murder Sword is the Anathame) in tomorrow' game.
The Murder Sword is, or so is it implied, an Athame, that is, a shard of the Anathame. It is far weaker than the original.
Actually the funny part is that if the size of the primarchs is correct in the BL novels then they may not be able to fire a meltagun and their hand would be too big. They are like 2x the size of a SM. SO if the battlefield is littered with regular Imperial Army meltaguns then that is one dead primarch.
Honestly this sort of argument is like me saying a emperor titan can kill a primarch if they start a mile apart...yep, so what is the point?
Orblivion wrote: Nurgle had nothing to do with the sword. Nurgle had infected the guardsman wielding it, not the sword itself. The sword just happened to be an extremely potent weapon.
Fulgrim cut up a tank..... Angron avoided being crushed by a Titan...
Automatically Appended Next Post: it just seems like their is 2 groups of people on this debate
group a= trying to prove reasons why primarchs are weak
group b= trying to prove reasons why primarchs are strong
Alas your opener is.. heavily polarizing. For example, for me, I would say. Why, it is possible that the Canonesse could but it would require a ludicrous amount of holes for this faitfhul one to hop through just to reach them and even then it depends on how prepared are they. Did they shove the barrel down the throat? Yeah primarch or not you are either dead or injured horrendously (unless you are Vulkan and then I'm not sure whether I want to head cannon..... well most of you know what I'm hinting at). At the same time though, this is only how I interpret the fluff (which is funny since my opinion of marines is much closer to the table top than the walking tanks of doom others see them as). We all have our opinions and to some extent want to be in the right not to mention we try to argue our point to bring one to our side of reasoning. It doesn't make your interpretations wrong but always remember that in 40k, there are few times where there is an outright agreement. Lasguns, the jokingly named flashlights are argued to be able to blast off arms and punch through walls to some whilst others claim they cause only minor burns. Now, I'm not claiming to go up and start explaining lasguns are stronger theeeen Boltguns, Meltaguns, Tau pulse guns, Eldar guns, Necron guns, etc... that's something I think almost everybody agrees that the lasgun is weaker. Actually, I think you would enjoy the Imperial Primer. They made a book that fluff wise all guardsman must have on them (or so they claim!). It has propoganda claiming nids to be slow, tau to be afraid of everything and crummy shots, and orks to be brutish fools of no intellect that are barely decent in CC. Propaganda is the general interpretation of it
You're referring to Armageddon or the Dominion of Fire? Either way, he was still driven back into the Immaterium, by Titans and millions of Guardsmen.
Well to be honest it was titans, millions of guardsman (infantry, tanks, guns, artillery, planes), many a space marine particularly the wolves, and a total of 100 terminator grey knights.
You're referring to Armageddon or the Dominion of Fire? Either way, he was still driven back into the Immaterium, by Titans and millions of Guardsmen.
wow titans and millions of men to stop 1 primarch
1 Daemon Prince Primarch that has become either the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd strongest of the daemons of Khorne (yet again the fluff is unreliable and it is argued over)
Melissia wrote: LightKing PMed me with this bizarre, out of the blue assertion (with no provocation form my part) about how Primarchs can't be beaten by anyone.
I responded by asserting that anyone who can land a headshot with a meltagun will kill a primarch in a single blow, just like they would kill anyone else. Firepower is, after all, the great equalizer. It doesn't matter how tough you are when you're being vaporized.
Well for one, that won't kill Vulkan, and two, at least one of the Primarchs tanked a clean shot from the plasma cannon of a titan. They're mini-emperors. They're unlikely to go down to a meltagun or a Sister- irregardless of her rank. Even Mortarian getting beaten once by Kaldor Draigo isn't anything to sneeze at (especially given all the in the Grey Knight codex they used in place of glue).
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: So why doesn't a Primarch survive a meltagun in the face... That's just silly. We've seen them survive even more insane stuff. I mean Lorgar did survive two plasma shots... from a Titan.
And yet Horus, believed even by most primarchs to be the best of them, was felled by a sickly guardsman/corpse with an alien sword.
A corpse infested and empowered by Nurgle and armed with a plaguesword specifically designed by the Chaos Gods to take down a Primarch (the Anathame).
Say something else silly. I'm bored and desire entertainment.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: So why doesn't a Primarch survive a meltagun in the face... That's just silly. We've seen them survive even more insane stuff. I mean Lorgar did survive two plasma shots... from a Titan.
And yet Horus, believed even by most primarchs to be the best of them, was felled by a sickly guardsman/corpse with an alien sword.
A corpse infested and empowered by Nurgle and armed with a plaguesword specifically designed by the Chaos Gods to take down a Primarch (the Anathame).
Say something else silly. I'm bored and desire entertainment.
Why bother? This whole thread is a joke, or hadn't you noticed?
EDIT: And once again, the Chaos Gods had nothing to do with the Anathame. Stop looking things up on the 40k Wiki people.
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: So why doesn't a Primarch survive a meltagun in the face... That's just silly. We've seen them survive even more insane stuff. I mean Lorgar did survive two plasma shots... from a Titan.
And yet Horus, believed even by most primarchs to be the best of them, was felled by a sickly guardsman/corpse with an alien sword.
A corpse infested and empowered by Nurgle and armed with a plaguesword specifically designed by the Chaos Gods to take down a Primarch (the Anathame).
Say something else silly. I'm bored and desire entertainment.
Why bother? This whole thread is a joke, or hadn't you noticed?
EDIT: And once again, the Chaos Gods had nothing to do with the Anathame. Stop looking things up on the 40k Wiki people.
well it seems like your trying to prove that the primarchs are weak and people are refuting you
LightKing wrote: well it seems like your trying to prove that the primarchs are weak and people are refuting you
Not at all, read my post at the top of page 3. I believe I stated that the primarchs were beings of immense power. The point is that they can still be killed. You're talking 1on1 in a dueling scenario, but from what Melissia said about what she told you in the PM, she wasn't. So you only made this thread for a little bit of sensationalism, that's the joke.
No, decapitated. She then managed to broadcast footage of the kill before she was killed by Talos.
(Which also shows she definetly would not have taken him had he actually fought, given that Curze/The Night Haunter had killed several previous assassins.)
Melissia wrote: LightKing PMed me with this bizarre, out of the blue assertion (with no provocation form my part) about how Primarchs can't be beaten by anyone.
I responded by asserting that anyone who can land a headshot with a meltagun will kill a primarch in a single blow, just like they would kill anyone else. Firepower is, after all, the great equalizer. It doesn't matter how tough you are when you're being vaporized.
Well for one, that won't kill Vulkan, and two, at least one of the Primarchs tanked a clean shot from the plasma cannon of a titan. They're mini-emperors. They're unlikely to go down to a meltagun or a Sister- irregardless of her rank. Even Mortarian getting beaten once by Kaldor Draigo isn't anything to sneeze at (especially given all the in the Grey Knight codex they used in place of glue).
If, of course, you think the HH is an "eye witness account" and will not end with a pan back from the closing scene to a dude sitting around the campfire with some kids, closing a book, and saying "and that is how the God-Emperor ascended to the Golden Throne to secure the future of us all" or some similar passage. What we're getting in the HH books *might* be filtered through 10,000 years of myth and forgotten history, related to us by a figure in M41.
Melissia wrote: LightKing PMed me with this bizarre, out of the blue assertion (with no provocation form my part) about how Primarchs can't be beaten by anyone.
I responded by asserting that anyone who can land a headshot with a meltagun will kill a primarch in a single blow, just like they would kill anyone else. Firepower is, after all, the great equalizer. It doesn't matter how tough you are when you're being vaporized.
Well for one, that won't kill Vulkan, and two, at least one of the Primarchs tanked a clean shot from the plasma cannon of a titan. They're mini-emperors. They're unlikely to go down to a meltagun or a Sister- irregardless of her rank. Even Mortarian getting beaten once by Kaldor Draigo isn't anything to sneeze at (especially given all the in the Grey Knight codex they used in place of glue).
If, of course, you think the HH is an "eye witness account" and will not end with a pan back from the closing scene to a dude sitting around the campfire with some kids, closing a book, and saying "and that is how the God-Emperor ascended to the Golden Throne to secure the future of us all" or some similar passage. What we're getting in the HH books *might* be filtered through 10,000 years of myth and forgotten history, related to us by a figure in M41.
I take it you haven't read the Talos Trilogy at all. Talos, first hand account on the Night Haunter (which also isn't glorified). Night Haunter wants the assassin to kill him and lets her decapitate him so he can martyr himself and vindicate his nutjob logic. Talos, despite swearing with all other Night Lords that they would not intervene, chases down the assassin and kills her on her ship. Eldar then immediately show up and beat the snot out of the Night Lords.
And considering how much GW thumbs its fists on the podium when advertising the HH series, they're probably the final pure canon look on the Horus Heresy. Of course, people being fairly uptight when it comes to 'their' look on W40K, decide to ignore despite it being the best source on the subject and most likely completely true.
Why bother? This whole thread is a joke, or hadn't you noticed?
EDIT: And once again, the Chaos Gods had nothing to do with the Anathame. Stop looking things up on the 40k Wiki people.
In Horus Rising, the Kinebrecht explicitly state that the Anathame and the other weapons in their mausoleum are weapons crafted with chaos energies, which is why they were banned.
Where are you getting your information from? You might want to actually read the Heresy series before you comment on it.
Why bother? This whole thread is a joke, or hadn't you noticed?
EDIT: And once again, the Chaos Gods had nothing to do with the Anathame. Stop looking things up on the 40k Wiki people.
In Horus Rising, the Kinebrecht explicitly state that the Anathame and the other weapons in their mausoleum are weapons crafted with chaos energies, which is why they were banned.
Where are you getting your information from? You might want to actually read the Heresy series before you comment on it.
i thought the Anathame was created by the Interex?
I thought all Primarchs had Eternal Warrior, which means they couldn't be insta-gibbed. I also saw some people say that this was actually mentioned in the fluffs or the novels, too, that there seemed to be some almost supernatural force that prevented primarchs from instantly dying to cheap headshots (kinda like how Abaddon has a fluff reason for having Eternal Warrior. Of course, some chars have it for seemingly no reason at all like Calgar...)
Why bother? This whole thread is a joke, or hadn't you noticed?
EDIT: And once again, the Chaos Gods had nothing to do with the Anathame. Stop looking things up on the 40k Wiki people.
In Horus Rising, the Kinebrecht explicitly state that the Anathame and the other weapons in their mausoleum are weapons crafted with chaos energies, which is why they were banned.
Where are you getting your information from? You might want to actually read the Heresy series before you comment on it.
The Kinebrach don't even speak to the Imperial visitors in the scene you're thinking of. The Interex took the Anathame from the Kinebrach, and the Interex make no mention of chaos energies when describing how the blade is forged. Erebus asks if it was perhaps made with a curse, and the Interex official replies "I suppose that is how you could describe it." Explain to me how you consider that "explicitly stating that it was crafted with chaos energies".
Void__Dragon wrote: Given equal weapons, the Primarch will shoot the canonness a hundred times before she even considers shooting him once.
And a meltagun? lol
Lascannons have hit Angron and Corvus Corax dead in the chest, and they juggernauted their way through it.
Sanguinius survived an axe strike from Ka'Bhanda that killed five hundred Blood Angels and left him in a crater.
The axe strike in question did not strike Sanguinius. There was some kind of psychic backlash involved in the death of so many Blood Angels, that's what affected Sanguinius.
Melissia wrote: LightKing PMed me with this bizarre, out of the blue assertion (with no provocation form my part) about how Primarchs can't be beaten by anyone.
I responded by asserting that anyone who can land a headshot with a meltagun will kill a primarch in a single blow, just like they would kill anyone else. Firepower is, after all, the great equalizer. It doesn't matter how tough you are when you're being vaporized.
Well for one, that won't kill Vulkan, and two, at least one of the Primarchs tanked a clean shot from the plasma cannon of a titan. They're mini-emperors. They're unlikely to go down to a meltagun or a Sister- irregardless of her rank. Even Mortarian getting beaten once by Kaldor Draigo isn't anything to sneeze at (especially given all the in the Grey Knight codex they used in place of glue).
If, of course, you think the HH is an "eye witness account" and will not end with a pan back from the closing scene to a dude sitting around the campfire with some kids, closing a book, and saying "and that is how the God-Emperor ascended to the Golden Throne to secure the future of us all" or some similar passage. What we're getting in the HH books *might* be filtered through 10,000 years of myth and forgotten history, related to us by a figure in M41.
I take it you haven't read the Talos Trilogy at all. Talos, first hand account on the Night Haunter (which also isn't glorified). Night Haunter wants the assassin to kill him and lets her decapitate him so he can martyr himself and vindicate his nutjob logic. Talos, despite swearing with all other Night Lords that they would not intervene, chases down the assassin and kills her on her ship. Eldar then immediately show up and beat the snot out of the Night Lords.
And considering how much GW thumbs its fists on the podium when advertising the HH series, they're probably the final pure canon look on the Horus Heresy. Of course, people being fairly uptight when it comes to 'their' look on W40K, decide to ignore despite it being the best source on the subject and most likely completely true.
No, I havent, because most BL novels are terrible, and I have better things to do with my time. Even the audiobook versions are atrocious.
Also "most likely completely true" doesn't mean anything when GW themselves have told us "none of this is intended to be taken as completely true."
Also also because this is the same series of novels where Primarchs forget they are Primarchs because of the needs of the plot. So... no, I don't buy it.
Void__Dragon wrote: Given equal weapons, the Primarch will shoot the canonness a hundred times before she even considers shooting him once.
And a meltagun? lol
Lascannons have hit Angron and Corvus Corax dead in the chest, and they juggernauted their way through it.
Sanguinius survived an axe strike from Ka'Bhanda that killed five hundred Blood Angels and left him in a crater.
their is simply no way a sister could best sang
No, they could. It's called orbital ordinance, and the Sisters do have ships. While a ground battle is immensely costly, they would likely bury them under numbers or just call down orbital strikes. Of course, there is one exception. It's highly unlikely they could kill Magnus given his psyker abilities which include stopping time cold.
Also, and seriously? Most Black Library books are terrific. You just avoid the mainstream works like those on the Space Wolves. Death of Antagonis, Siege of Castellax, Legion of the Damned, Talos Trilogy, and the collections like Space Marine and Hammer and Bolter are all fantastic. The start of the Horus Heresy was also good, although McNeil taking a big crap on Abnett's work with Horus Rising was annoying, it's all enjoyable and readable. You just do research and don't blindly buy stuff off the shelf like a bad consumer.
Oh, and then there's the important fact that Warhammer 40kIS A COMEDY.
Void__Dragon wrote: Given equal weapons, the Primarch will shoot the canonness a hundred times before she even considers shooting him once.
And a meltagun? lol
Lascannons have hit Angron and Corvus Corax dead in the chest, and they juggernauted their way through it.
Sanguinius survived an axe strike from Ka'Bhanda that killed five hundred Blood Angels and left him in a crater.
The axe strike in question did not strike Sanguinius. There was some kind of psychic backlash involved in the death of so many Blood Angels, that's what affected Sanguinius.
come on dude, your going to continue saying a sister can beat a primarch in 1 on 1 h2h/melee
Void__Dragon wrote: Given equal weapons, the Primarch will shoot the canonness a hundred times before she even considers shooting him once.
And a meltagun? lol
Lascannons have hit Angron and Corvus Corax dead in the chest, and they juggernauted their way through it.
Sanguinius survived an axe strike from Ka'Bhanda that killed five hundred Blood Angels and left him in a crater.
The axe strike in question did not strike Sanguinius. There was some kind of psychic backlash involved in the death of so many Blood Angels, that's what affected Sanguinius.
explain Guilliaman taking a starcruiser laser shot and suriving in space without a helmet
Void__Dragon wrote: Given equal weapons, the Primarch will shoot the canonness a hundred times before she even considers shooting him once.
And a meltagun? lol
Lascannons have hit Angron and Corvus Corax dead in the chest, and they juggernauted their way through it.
Sanguinius survived an axe strike from Ka'Bhanda that killed five hundred Blood Angels and left him in a crater.
The axe strike in question did not strike Sanguinius. There was some kind of psychic backlash involved in the death of so many Blood Angels, that's what affected Sanguinius.
come on dude, your going to continue saying a sister can beat a primarch in 1 on 1 h2h/melee
That was not intended to be an argument at all. I was simply correcting a mistake I saw.
LightKing wrote: explain Guilliaman taking a starcruiser laser shot and suriving in space without a helmet
What is wrong with you? I wasn't arguing the point he made at all, I was just making a correction to one of his examples. I'm as big of a Sanguinius fanboy as you can find.
The axe strike in question did not strike Sanguinius. There was some kind of psychic backlash involved in the death of so many Blood Angels, that's what affected Sanguinius.
Did a quick check of this, you're actually right about this.
No, I havent, because most BL novels are terrible, and I have better things to do with my time.
Like argue with people about them on DakkaDakka.
Also also because this is the same series of novels where Primarchs forget they are Primarchs because of the needs of the plot. So... no, I don't buy it.
Melissia wrote: LightKing PMed me with this bizarre, out of the blue assertion (with no provocation form my part) about how Primarchs can't be beaten by anyone.
I responded by asserting that anyone who can land a headshot with a meltagun will kill a primarch in a single blow, just like they would kill anyone else. Firepower is, after all, the great equalizer. It doesn't matter how tough you are when you're being vaporized.
Primarchs take Titan plasma weaponry. They won't get hurt by a meltagun. Seriously all 30k tanks can be immune to melta. And primarchs are tougher than any non superheavy tank.
Again these melon-fethers are stronger than certain versions of Superman.
Sister shoves melta down primarch throat and pulls the trigger= fething LAVA down his throat= primarch dead. (the thing is, shed never get that close.
Sister and primarch both have meltas= primarch, cause he's faster (by alot)
Sister and primarch both have CCW = dead sister, cause he's stronger, faster.
Sister has CCW = primarch still wins.
You'd have to be high to think a Primarch could take on Goku. The only one I think might even last a bit against him is Magnus, but I don't remember if Goku has any defenses against attacks psychic in nature.
You'd have to be high to think a Primarch could take on Goku. The only one I think might even last a bit against him is Magnus, but I don't remember if Goku has any defenses against attacks psychic in nature.
He certainly does. He's too stupid for anyone to withstand touching his mind.
You'd have to be high to think a Primarch could take on Goku. The only one I think might even last a bit against him is Magnus, but I don't remember if Goku has any defenses against attacks psychic in nature.
I'm not going to acknowledge this but pretty much any version of Superman apart from the Frank Miller verison could beat primarchs bloody.
The movie versions would likely be taken out by Magnus given their lack of feats surrounding defense against mind attacks. But that's like... it. And boasting that you can beatdown a movie version of a superhero is like boasting you can smack around a paraplegic child.
the shrouded lord wrote: Sister shoves melta down primarch throat and pulls the trigger= fething LAVA down his throat= primarch dead. (the thing is, shed never get that close.
Sister and primarch both have meltas= primarch, cause he's faster (by alot)
Sister and primarch both have CCW = dead sister, cause he's stronger, faster.
Sister has CCW = primarch still wins.
that's what I been trying to say, even in a melta vs. melta fight....the primarch still has vastly superior reflexes, strength and speed then a sister
Automatically Appended Next Post: now what about this....... Magnus vs. Palpatine
Battle has no connection to the OP post. Problem with this argument is that the force and psykers power is tied to their own respective universe/galaxy. Without their powers, Magnus but that doesn't seem a fair fight etc etc
the shrouded lord wrote: Sister shoves melta down primarch throat and pulls the trigger= fething LAVA down his throat= primarch dead. (the thing is, shed never get that close.
Sister and primarch both have meltas= primarch, cause he's faster (by alot)
Sister and primarch both have CCW = dead sister, cause he's stronger, faster.
Sister has CCW = primarch still wins.
that's what I been trying to say, even in a melta vs. melta fight....the primarch still has vastly superior reflexes, strength and speed then a sister
Automatically Appended Next Post: now what about this....... Magnus vs. Palpatine
Psyker ability vs. The Force
Magnus can stop time. While Palps can open Force Storms capable of ripping apart fleets- Magnus simply is more powerful. Palps is good, but not comparable to the strongest psykers in W40K like Magnus, the Emperor, and Eldrad. He'd be on par with an Alpha Pysker though, possible Alpha Plus.
Also, for the Force and the Warp, equivalency is normally used.
People aren't denying that Primarchs are powerful, genius. Just that a lucky shot can kill anything. But if you want to keep arguing with people who bring this up, by all means.
Melissia wrote: Eh, stopping time isn't something that's exclusive to Magnus. It's something that primaris psykers are capable of as well, according to DH:Ascension.
I don't think that he was disputing that or making that argument, though.
Though most possibly can't do it at the scale Magnus can, which is planetary.
Melissia wrote: Eh, stopping time isn't something that's exclusive to Magnus. It's something that primaris psykers are capable of as well, according to DH:Ascension.
I know. He's simply vastly more powerful than human psykers and Palps wouldn't have time to get off a force storm to kill Magnus without killing himself in the process due to the storm being danger close. And we also know that he doesn't really have good control over them, considering he lost a body that way once.
Melissia wrote: Oh don't get me wrong, I don't disagree that psykers are massively more powerful than Jedi.
Yeah, there's only a couple Jedi and Sith comparable to the uber-high end human psykers, but there's none I know of even close to the GEOM or Magnus. Of course, there's Nihilus, but he's weird and a no-limits fallacy.
Melissia wrote: Meh, Nihilus was still nothing compared to a primaris psyker (ignoring how weak they are on the tabletop, which doesn't represent them well at all).
Well, he did permakill a planet by speaking a single word. The way he's funky is that he actually gets more lethal the greater in power his opponent is.
Melissia wrote: Meh, Nihilus was still nothing compared to a primaris psyker (ignoring how weak they are on the tabletop, which doesn't represent them well at all).
Uh, I seriously doubt your average primaris psyker can destroy worlds to feed their power and lift starships from gravity wells.
their isn't any regualar human psyker as powerful as Magnus besides the emperor...the only argument would be malcador, but even then, he got roasted on the golden throne
Melissia wrote: Meh, Nihilus was still nothing compared to a primaris psyker (ignoring how weak they are on the tabletop, which doesn't represent them well at all).
I always found Sion the more interesting of the pair. Nihilus was the emptiness consumed by hunger, while Sion embraced pain to survive. But both of them pale in comparison to Traya. Damn, I need to play that game again... with the restoration mod.
Melissia wrote: Meh, Nihilus was still nothing compared to a primaris psyker (ignoring how weak they are on the tabletop, which doesn't represent them well at all).
I always found Sion the more interesting of the pair. Nihilus was the emptiness consumed by hunger, while Sion embraced pain to survive. But both of them pale in comparison to Traya. Damn, I need to play that game again... with the restoration mod.
Nihilus is a great character. The problem is that they didn't build upon it, because Nihilus' background would be superb considering it'd be the king of tragedies in Star Wars and nigh impossible to screw up. He's pretty much the definition of the woobie, destroyer of worlds trope considering it's a long fall to end up a Wound, and literally lost everything.
You know, it's possible that the stories of primarchs not being killed by huge weapons are just tall tales based on things they actually did. Like, the story of Lorgar surviving a plasma blast was actually just an incident where he was in the vicinity of a huge plasma blast, managed to live by some miracle and his "sons" aggrandized the tale to make him look better. Guilliman may have just been spaced as a breach was opened up in his ship and managed to live despite the length of time spent in vacuum. People tend to stretch the facts as stories are told and retold.
Personally, I think a Conscript could kill a Primarch if he got a good hit off with a Plasma Cannon. It's just that the Primarchs are so good at what they do that it would never happen to them with a little bit of luck.
Either that or the Primarchs really are that tough and this setting is even more shallow than I thought.
LightKing wrote: a Primaris psyker is no where near Magnus level
come on now
? When did anyone say that? Lightking I think you need to read through the thread a little more thoroughly before you post, it seems like you're deliberately trying to extend your thread's life by posting nonsensical arguments against things that no one has raised.
Melissia wrote: Meh, Nihilus was still nothing compared to a primaris psyker (ignoring how weak they are on the tabletop, which doesn't represent them well at all).
I always found Sion the more interesting of the pair. Nihilus was the emptiness consumed by hunger, while Sion embraced pain to survive. But both of them pale in comparison to Traya. Damn, I need to play that game again... with the restoration mod.
Nihilus is a great character. The problem is that they didn't build upon it, because Nihilus' background would be superb considering it'd be the king of tragedies in Star Wars and nigh impossible to screw up. He's pretty much the definition of the woobie, destroyer of worlds trope considering it's a long fall to end up a Wound, and literally lost everything.
The idea of Nihilus is interesting, and it is what makes him so compelling, despite Nihilus playing a relatively minor role in the story. He's easily the most dangerous person in the game, but you only hear whispers of the destruction he brought, only get a taste of his power in the form of the Assassins. And if you weren't also a cypher for Force Users, Telos would have been annihilated. I found that interesting, how your own character's past was tied to the villains. You voluntarily cut yourself off from the force to survive, Nihilus chose to consume those around him, and Sion embraced pain. Malachor V did a number on the survivors.
Melissia wrote: Meh, Nihilus was still nothing compared to a primaris psyker (ignoring how weak they are on the tabletop, which doesn't represent them well at all).
I always found Sion the more interesting of the pair. Nihilus was the emptiness consumed by hunger, while Sion embraced pain to survive. But both of them pale in comparison to Traya. Damn, I need to play that game again... with the restoration mod.
Nihilus is a great character. The problem is that they didn't build upon it, because Nihilus' background would be superb considering it'd be the king of tragedies in Star Wars and nigh impossible to screw up. He's pretty much the definition of the woobie, destroyer of worlds trope considering it's a long fall to end up a Wound, and literally lost everything.
The idea of Nihilus is interesting, and it is what makes him so compelling, despite Nihilus playing a relatively minor role in the story. He's easily the most dangerous person in the game, but you only hear whispers of the destruction he brought, only get a taste of his power in the form of the Assassins. And if you weren't also a cypher for Force Users, Telos would have been annihilated. I found that interesting, how your own character's past was tied to the villains. You voluntarily cut yourself off from the force to survive, Nihilus chose to consume those around him, and Sion embraced pain. Malachor V did a number on the survivors.
Certainly a better entanglement of characters than some of the other fluff for Star Wars. After Dark Empire, palps seems more like a lost Dungeons and Dragons wizard.
Melissia wrote: LightKing PMed me with this bizarre, out of the blue assertion (with no provocation form my part) about how Primarchs can't be beaten by anyone.
I responded by asserting that anyone who can land a headshot with a meltagun will kill a primarch in a single blow, just like they would kill anyone else. Firepower is, after all, the great equalizer. It doesn't matter how tough you are when you're being vaporized.
Ha ha ha... He did the same to Troike and me in the "marines=sisters" thread. I guess he is upgrading his troll power.
I answered him in the topic, eventually leading to this conversation:
Magnus would still beat a sister 1 on 1 in combat because, well he's a primarch and vastly stronger then her
No way! Seriously?? LOL A mere primarch defeating a Sister of Battle in close combat!?! Preposterous! I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch??
No way a sissy like Magnus could take on a Sister of Battle 1 on 1. At least not in close combat.
No. Way.
You think THAT'S bad? Can you imagine what would happen if Magnus fought a grot? Poor guy would just get curb stomped.
lol are you guys serious? Magnus would destroy a sister
Oh come on. Of course I am super serious. Sisters are trained since birth, have Power Armour and Bolters, and they specialize in killing psykers.
And what is Magnus? A [/b]psyker[b]. No. Chance. He will never make it into close combat. And even if he manages to get there... then what? Try to get through her Power Armour? Hilarious.
Against a grot it would be a similar situation. While Magnus has psy-powers and stuff like that, the sneaky abilities of the grot will allow it to get into close combat... and then it is game over for Magnus totally. And even if he manages to detect the grot, its sheer will-power will protect him against everything a primarch can use.
Guilliaman tanked a shot from a starship and surived floating in space without a helmet
And Sister Macarena killed every single member of the Maximus Pious Chapter of the Space Marines (1000 Astartes in full gear) armed only with a wooden spear, and then used a Warhound Titan to seriously wound a grot. Sure the grot eventually dismembered her, but she wounded it.
She didn't even pilot the Warhound. She just picked up and dropped it on the grot. Like a titan sized nuke.
It is somehow funny, yet still a pity.
This threads are going sillier by the day. I blame the title. If it were "Can a human or a Marine defeat a Primarch?" there could be a chance. But, the way it is presented, and giving the tendency of LightKing to put words in other people´s mouths, this is troll territory, and worth nothing.
Melissia wrote: LightKing PMed me with this bizarre, out of the blue assertion (with no provocation form my part) about how Primarchs can't be beaten by anyone.
I responded by asserting that anyone who can land a headshot with a meltagun will kill a primarch in a single blow, just like they would kill anyone else. Firepower is, after all, the great equalizer. It doesn't matter how tough you are when you're being vaporized.
Ha ha ha... He did the same to Troike and me in the "marines=sisters" thread. I guess he is upgrading his troll power.
I answered him in the topic, eventually leading to this conversation:
Magnus would still beat a sister 1 on 1 in combat because, well he's a primarch and vastly stronger then her
No way! Seriously?? LOL A mere primarch defeating a Sister of Battle in close combat!?! Preposterous! I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch??
No way a sissy like Magnus could take on a Sister of Battle 1 on 1. At least not in close combat.
No. Way.
You think THAT'S bad? Can you imagine what would happen if Magnus fought a grot? Poor guy would just get curb stomped.
lol are you guys serious? Magnus would destroy a sister
Oh come on. Of course I am super serious. Sisters are trained since birth, have Power Armour and Bolters, and they specialize in killing psykers.
And what is Magnus? A [/b]psyker[b]. No. Chance. He will never make it into close combat. And even if he manages to get there... then what? Try to get through her Power Armour? Hilarious.
Against a grot it would be a similar situation. While Magnus has psy-powers and stuff like that, the sneaky abilities of the grot will allow it to get into close combat... and then it is game over for Magnus totally. And even if he manages to detect the grot, its sheer will-power will protect him against everything a primarch can use.
Guilliaman tanked a shot from a starship and surived floating in space without a helmet
And Sister Macarena killed every single member of the Maximus Pious Chapter of the Space Marines (1000 Astartes in full gear) armed only with a wooden spear, and then used a Warhound Titan to seriously wound a grot. Sure the grot eventually dismembered her, but she wounded it.
She didn't even pilot the Warhound. She just picked up and dropped it on the grot. Like a titan sized nuke.
It is somehow funny, yet still a pity.
This threads are going sillier by the day. I blame the title. If it were "Can a human or a Marine defeat a Primarch?" there could be a chance. But, the way it is presented, and giving the tendency of LightKing to put words in other people´s mouths, this is troll territory, and worth nothing.
Don´t feed the troll.
That was a very funny read - thanks
I truely loved this line:
I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch??
As for the topic... no, a Canoness is nowhere near as powerful as a Primarch. But she is one of the best trained and best equipped unmodified human warriors you can come across, capable of giving the average (not Calgar) SM Chapter Master a run for his money in a stand-up fight.
If the Primarch is otherwise occupied (slaughtering his way through a squad of SoB, for example) the Canoness might get in one good shot with her Inferno Pistol.
And as for other topics, I thought Sangiunus was regarded as the best duelist and swordsman of them all? Horus only killed him thanks to the massive Chaos boons he'd received.
Oh man.... How many of these "who is stronger, X or Y" threads are we gonna get? I mean, at least put it in one thread. Even better, use correct punctuation in the titles!
TheCustomLime wrote: You know, it's possible that the stories of primarchs not being killed by huge weapons are just tall tales based on things they actually did. Like, the story of Lorgar surviving a plasma blast was actually just an incident where he was in the vicinity of a huge plasma blast, managed to live by some miracle and his "sons" aggrandized the tale to make him look better. Guilliman may have just been spaced as a breach was opened up in his ship and managed to live despite the length of time spent in vacuum. People tend to stretch the facts as stories are told and retold.
Personally, I think a Conscript could kill a Primarch if he got a good hit off with a Plasma Cannon. It's just that the Primarchs are so good at what they do that it would never happen to them with a little bit of luck.
Either that or the Primarchs really are that tough and this setting is even more shallow than I thought.
Why would that make it shallow?
Some of the best stories ever told (The classic and Norse mythologies of old, All Star Superman, etc.) involve super powerful characters doing super powerful things.
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LightKing wrote: a Primaris psyker is no where near Magnus level
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Oh i get it, you really should remove the question mark and change is to Isn't in the thread title. You obviously only want people to agree with you, and will ignore other peoples opinions no matter what we say. I simply don;t like Primarchs in general, they are far to powerful. Guilliman being out in space and not dieing is ridiculous, his blood would expand in his vains and his head would explode, but aparantly plot armour also effects vains.
Believe the Sus-an Membrane implant allows SMs to survive in the vacuum of space. Don't see why a Primarch wouldn't have this as well.
I like to believe that the Primarch's are nigh unbeatable except by each other and acts of the Dark Gods or the false emperor. Other gods would probably kill them too, a 100% C'tan or the whole Khaine. Other mortals I don't believe stand a chance. This isn't because they are invulnerable to a meltagun to the face, but because they're so good at battle/fighting this type of war that the chances of them ever getting caught by said melta to the face are too small. The chance is there yes, but will it happen in foreseeable future (if they were around)? I don't think so. Given infinite time, anything is possible though, 4 out of the 18 were laid low by mortals - Cruze (on purpose I believe), Lion, Guiliman and Dorne (though I think he was retconed to have vanished except for his hands).
The Primarchs would be not lost or unattainable in both setting and gameplay if they could be defeated by mortals. My reasoning at least.
Edit: all that said, no a Canoness would probably never defeat a Primarch, even if they battled a million times. Maybe a billion though
Melissia wrote: LightKing PMed me with this bizarre, out of the blue assertion (with no provocation form my part) about how Primarchs can't be beaten by anyone.
I responded by asserting that anyone who can land a headshot with a meltagun will kill a primarch in a single blow, just like they would kill anyone else. Firepower is, after all, the great equalizer. It doesn't matter how tough you are when you're being vaporized.
Incorrect actually. On several occasions Primarchs have survived far worse injuries. Lorgar being shot by a titans plasma blastgun. Twice. Angron being crushed by thousands of tonnes of rubble and surviving unharmed. Guilliame having his head caved in by Lorgars maul. Showed no sign that he even felt it.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Oh i get it, you really should remove the question mark and change is to Isn't in the thread title. You obviously only want people to agree with you, and will ignore other peoples opinions no matter what we say. I simply don;t like Primarchs in general, they are far to powerful. Guilliman being out in space and not dieing is ridiculous, his blood would expand in his vains and his head would explode, but aparantly plot armour also effects vains.
Believe the Sus-an Membrane implant allows SMs to survive in the vacuum of space. Don't see why a Primarch wouldn't have this as well.
I like to believe that the Primarch's are nigh unbeatable except by each other and acts of the Dark Gods or the false emperor. Other gods would probably kill them too, a 100% C'tan or the whole Khaine. Other mortals I don't believe stand a chance. This isn't because they are invulnerable to a meltagun to the face, but because they're so good at battle/fighting this type of war that the chances of them ever getting caught by said melta to the face are too small. The chance is there yes, but will it happen in foreseeable future (if they were around)? I don't think so. Given infinite time, anything is possible though, 4 out of the 18 were laid low by mortals - Cruze (on purpose I believe), Lion, Guiliman and Dorne (though I think he was retconed to have vanished except for his hands).
The Primarchs would be not lost or unattainable in both setting and gameplay if they could be defeated by mortals. My reasoning at least.
Edit: all that said, no a Canoness would probably never defeat a Primarch, even if they battled a million times. Maybe a billion though
I could easily see a transcendent C'tan or Swarmlord or Tyranid bio-creature butchering a Primarch. Especially one of the weaker ones.
The thing is, though, that Primarchs are still made from matter. Organic matter, no less. They may have adamantium-laced bone (even this is doubtful; did they eat regular doses of the stuff while growing up on their individual worlds?) or something, but anything as destructively powerful as even the smallest weapons on a Titan (or indeed, a meltagun) are going to kill them outright unless they have some form of psychic/daemon invulnerable save (Magnus), much less a starship weapon.
I don't care how much of a badass you are, or how genetically modified you are. Your skin/bone/muscle is not possibly tougher than Terminator armour or even remotely on par with a Necron Monolith. Vehicles can be melta-immune because they have specific systems to deal with the heat, and usually very thick, very strong armour. Nothing short of Void Shields are capable of withstanding Strength-D weapons.
I agree with the above line, though; "This isn't because they're invulnerable to a meltagun to the face, but because they're so good at battle/fighting this type of war that the chances of them ever getting caught by said melta to the face are too small". To a degree, anyway. It'd never happen because a Primarch's greatest strength is their plot armour; in reality, such a high-value target would be immediately saturated with all manner of orbital strikes, artillery, and every other available scrap of firepower until nothing remains but atoms.
Personally, I always found Batman Konrad's death to be idiotic and pointless. It completely detracts from the ability of Callidus assassins, and layers on even more emphasis on the mindless butchering of female characters at every possible turn (oh no, my target was actually the Deceiver and I've been eaten, how sad). Not only did she kill him because he let her do it (so really, for all her skill she may as well have been a legless baby playing with a D-Cannon), but he gave specific orders for her to be allowed to leave - which were ignored and she was brutally slaughtered, anyway. Had it been an Eversor, we would have likely been treated to a lovely description of the Eversor's corpse surrounded by the remains of dozens of slaughtered Night Lords, the Night Haunter's lifeless head clutched almost jealously in his bloodied and Neuro-Gauntleted hand. It's not "oooh female characters should never die!", but that the story completely removes all skill on her part. She may as well have not been there at all.
EDIT: Speaking of misogyny, I get the distinct impression that LightKing's argument (judging by the PMs to several people all following the same pattern) revolves not around a Primarch vs a mortal, but a Primarch vs a woman. Just from the repeated mention of Battle-Sisters, specifically. And of course, all of the Primarchs are male...
Frozen Ocean wrote: The thing is, though, that Primarchs are still made from matter. Organic matter, no less. They may have adamantium-laced bone (even this is doubtful; did they eat regular doses of the stuff while growing up on their individual worlds?) or something, but anything as destructively powerful as even the smallest weapons on a Titan (or indeed, a meltagun) are going to kill them outright unless they have some form of psychic/daemon invulnerable save (Magnus), much less a starship weapon.
I don't care how much of a badass you are, or how genetically modified you are. Your skin/bone/muscle is not possibly tougher than Terminator armour or even remotely on par with a Necron Monolith. Vehicles can be melta-immune because they have specific systems to deal with the heat, and usually very thick, very strong armour. Nothing short of Void Shields are capable of withstanding Strength-D weapons.
I agree with the above line, though; "This isn't because they're invulnerable to a meltagun to the face, but because they're so good at battle/fighting this type of war that the chances of them ever getting caught by said melta to the face are too small". To a degree, anyway. It'd never happen because a Primarch's greatest strength is their plot armour; in reality, such a high-value target would be immediately saturated with all manner of orbital strikes, artillery, and every other available scrap of firepower until nothing remains but atoms.
Personally, I always found Batman Konrad's death to be idiotic and pointless. It completely detracts from the ability of Callidus assassins, and layers on even more emphasis on the mindless butchering of female characters at every possible turn (oh no, my target was actually the Deceiver and I've been eaten, how sad). Not only did she kill him because he let her do it (so really, for all her skill she may as well have been a legless baby playing with a D-Cannon), but he gave specific orders for her to be allowed to leave - which were ignored and she was brutally slaughtered, anyway. Had it been an Eversor, we would have likely been treated to a lovely description of the Eversor's corpse surrounded by the remains of dozens of slaughtered Night Lords, the Night Haunter's lifeless head clutched almost jealously in his bloodied and Neuro-Gauntleted hand. It's not "oooh female characters should never die!", but that the story completely removes all skill on her part. She may as well have not been there at all.
Except they have tanked shots from titan and starship weapons. And the Primarchs were allegedly created with powers stolen from Chaos/Immaterium. And as various strange creatures in W40K have shown us- just because you're made of flesh doesn't mean it can be supernaturally/impossibly strong.
Frozen Ocean wrote: EDIT: Speaking of misogyny, I get the distinct impression that LightKing's argument (judging by the PMs to several people all following the same pattern) revolves not around a Primarch vs a mortal, but a Primarch vs a woman. Just from the repeated mention of Battle-Sisters, specifically. And of course, all of the Primarchs are male...
Nah, not the impression I got. I think that he was just taking advantage of the fact that both Marines and Sisters have some strong suporters in order to play people against each other and start a gakstorm.
Frozen Ocean wrote: (...)
Personally, I always found Batman Konrad's death to be idiotic and pointless. It completely detracts from the ability of Callidus assassins, and layers on even more emphasis on the mindless butchering of female characters at every possible turn (oh no, my target was actually the Deceiver and I've been eaten, how sad). Not only did she kill him because he let her do it (so really, for all her skill she may as well have been a legless baby playing with a D-Cannon), but he gave specific orders for her to be allowed to leave - which were ignored and she was brutally slaughtered, anyway. Had it been an Eversor, we would have likely been treated to a lovely description of the Eversor's corpse surrounded by the remains of dozens of slaughtered Night Lords, the Night Haunter's lifeless head clutched almost jealously in his bloodied and Neuro-Gauntleted hand. It's not "oooh female characters should never die!", but that the story completely removes all skill on her part. She may as well have not been there at all.
EDIT: Speaking of misogyny, I get the distinct impression that LightKing's argument (judging by the PMs to several people all following the same pattern) revolves not around a Primarch vs a mortal, but a Primarch vs a woman. Just from the repeated mention of Battle-Sisters, specifically. And of course, all of the Primarchs are male...
I share your feelings. Both about LightKing being quite able to accept that men like Kor Phaeron, Luther or someone with a very big gun would have a chance against Primarchs while openly mocking at the idea of a woman doing the same, and what you wrote about Konrad´s death.
However, I would like to point out that the original story didn´t go that way. Curze letting the assassin killing him was kind of... unique, and no senseless stuff about Callidus assassins being pointless was to be found. That´s a posterior addition by Aaron Dembski-Bowden, a great author with a great, great hard-on on Marines and a tendency to change stuff he finds not cool enough. So yeah, a Marine killing a Callidus assassin. Take that. And the Emperor is an idiot, sending pathetically weak (as in "non-Marines") assassins against someone protected by mighty Astartes, a single one of them being a match for the most powerful assassins the Imperium has. And to make the senselessness of this bit more... palatable to the average w40k fan, the stupidly weak red shirt is a woman. It wouldn´t have worked with a male Eversor. There would be Marines torn to pieces everywhere, to the bitter tears of some fans.
Now there I go with my opinion on humans vs Primarchs: I think it is obvious that the Emperor, Malcador and the High Lords of Terra think that a human assassin can take down a Primarch. Proof? They sent assassins to do that mission, and they are not fools. Remember "Nemesis"? A Vindicare, alone, is quite able to kill a Primarch, in the eyes of the people who created the Primarchs.
Now, please, explain to me that the Emperor was a fool who ignored that the Primarchs couldn´t be killed by a mortal.
And explain to me how a single bullet, poisoned by a master of the Venenum Temple using the knowledge of the Primarch Project given to them by Malcador himself specifically to kill a Primarch, following a plan designed by a Vanus Master Assassin, and fired by an Exitus Rifle, will bound off the head of a Primarch because.... why? Because the Officio Assassinorum lacks a Codex since third edition and nobody remembers what they do?
The only things that are made of "flesh" and extremely strong are certain types of Tyranid; who are all covered in extremely strong and extremely thick armour. Saying that "because a Hierodule can take a meltagun, a Guardsman can because they're all fleshies" is the same as saying that a Land Speeder is equivalent to a Battle Barge because they're both vehicles, usually have Space Marines in them, and don't have wheels.
Even that doesn't cover it. Not even a Primarch-sized block of Adamantium could survive these things, so how could they have any hope? "Tanking" shots from these things is as "alleged" as their creation being supernatural (which is only hinted at). Also, if a Titan/Starship weapon could kill one, there is no way that a C'tan Phaseblade would be able to, even if the Primarch in question was letting it happen. The only possible way for anything to take a shot from a starship or Titan is if The Emperor decided to intervene with a supershield of psychic power or something. I'm going with the idea that these stories are massively exaggerated versions of what really happened.
Daemons are literally made from magic, not "flesh", and are the only "creatures" that match or exceed certain Tyranids for durability.
EDIT: More posts happened! Nemesis is a rather... interesting story, on the topic of female characters doing stuff. A number of the team are female, but fail to do anything except get killed by a random daemon. And then the Vindicaire (who killed the Daemon) spaces himself to get a shot at Horus and fails miserably!
You do raise a good point, though, that Assassins were reasonably considered to be able to get the job done. It's just unfortunate that they happened to send a team comprised entirely of the most incompetent assassins in the entire galaxy. Also yeah, poor Marines. I wouldn't mind so much if it was simply that - Kurze letting her kill him because he's crazy. It fits. I didn't know it was a change, but the rest of it on top of that just makes it feel like "Yeah no Callidus suck so yeah".
Frozen Ocean wrote: EDIT: Speaking of misogyny, I get the distinct impression that LightKing's argument (judging by the PMs to several people all following the same pattern) revolves not around a Primarch vs a mortal, but a Primarch vs a woman. Just from the repeated mention of Battle-Sisters, specifically. And of course, all of the Primarchs are male...
Nah, not the impression I got. I think that he was just taking advantage of the fact that both Marines and Sisters have some strong suporters in order to play people against each other and start a gakstorm.
Perhaps.
Sometimes he acts like a troll, sometimes he does not. I am not sure anymore.
Anyway, if that is the case I think he is failing miserably. At least I am enjoying some of his senseless threads.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I thoroughly love this thread. Watching LightKing repeat the "Guilleman in space" or the other three or four select phrases in response to anything that may or may not be relevant is great.
Frozen Ocean wrote: The only things that are made of "flesh" and extremely strong are certain types of Tyranid; who are all covered in extremely strong and extremely thick armour. Saying that "because a Hierodule can take a meltagun, a Guardsman can because they're all fleshies" is the same as saying that a Land Speeder is equivalent to a Battle Barge because they're both vehicles, usually have Space Marines in them, and don't have wheels.
Even that doesn't cover it. Not even a Primarch-sized block of Adamantium could survive these things, so how could they have any hope? "Tanking" shots from these things is as "alleged" as their creation being supernatural (which is only hinted at). Also, if a Titan/Starship weapon could kill one, there is no way that a C'tan Phaseblade would be able to, even if the Primarch in question was letting it happen. The only possible way for anything to take a shot from a starship or Titan is if The Emperor decided to intervene with a supershield of psychic power or something. I'm going with the idea that these stories are massively exaggerated versions of what really happened.
Daemons are literally made from magic, not "flesh", and are the only "creatures" that match or exceed certain Tyranids for durability.
EDIT: More posts happened! Nemesis is a rather... interesting story, on the topic of female characters doing stuff. A number of the team are female, but fail to do anything except get killed by a random daemon. And then the Vindicaire (who killed the Daemon) spaces himself to get a shot at Horus and fails miserably!
You do raise a good point, though, that Assassins were reasonably considered to be able to get the job done. It's just unfortunate that they happened to send a team comprised entirely of the most incompetent assassins in the entire galaxy. Also yeah, poor Marines. I wouldn't mind so much if it was simply that - Kurze letting her kill him because he's crazy. It fits. I didn't know it was a change, but the rest of it on top of that just makes it feel like "Yeah no Callidus suck so yeah".
And you're forgetting the myriad of warp-infused Astartes that creates strange creatures like Obliterators and Mutilators. And the Primarchs are literal demigods and not humans in the least.
Frozen Ocean wrote: The thing is, though, that Primarchs are still made from matter. Organic matter, no less. They may have adamantium-laced bone (even this is doubtful; did they eat regular doses of the stuff while growing up on their individual worlds?) or something, but anything as destructively powerful as even the smallest weapons on a Titan (or indeed, a meltagun) are going to kill them outright unless they have some form of psychic/daemon invulnerable save (Magnus), much less a starship weapon.
To be perfectly blunt, what you "think" has exactly no basis on what actually is.
If your personal canon of 40k doesn't have nigh-invulnerable Primarchs, that is fine, but do not deign to make absolutist statements on their durability when the only basis for it is what you would like to be the case.
Vulkan surviving macron cannons (I forgot who responded to this, this thread and the other one are hard to keep track of replies, but Vulkan, although he is a perpetual, took the macron cannon without needing to regenerate, IIRC), Angron having a mountain dropped on his head, Lorgar actually surviving Titan weaponry (And it must be said he defeated An'ggrath in martial combat, who eats Titans for breakfast), etc. These happened.
I don't care how much of a badass you are, or how genetically modified you are. Your skin/bone/muscle is not possibly tougher than Terminator armour or even remotely on par with a Necron Monolith. Vehicles can be melta-immune because they have specific systems to deal with the heat, and usually very thick, very strong armour. Nothing short of Void Shields are capable of withstanding Strength-D weapons.
Ferrus Manus' fists go through Terminator Armour as though they are butter, as shown and stated, but could only "lightly bruise the flesh of a Primarch".
I agree with the above line, though; "This isn't because they're invulnerable to a meltagun to the face, but because they're so good at battle/fighting this type of war that the chances of them ever getting caught by said melta to the face are too small". To a degree, anyway. It'd never happen because a Primarch's greatest strength is their plot armour; in reality, such a high-value target would be immediately saturated with all manner of orbital strikes, artillery, and every other available scrap of firepower until nothing remains but atoms.
It could also be both.
Personally, I always found Batman Konrad's death to be idiotic and pointless. It completely detracts from the ability of Callidus assassins, and layers on even more emphasis on the mindless butchering of female characters at every possible turn (oh no, my target was actually the Deceiver and I've been eaten, how sad). Not only did she kill him because he let her do it (so really, for all her skill she may as well have been a legless baby playing with a D-Cannon), but he gave specific orders for her to be allowed to leave - which were ignored and she was brutally slaughtered, anyway.
So do you believe that M'Shen should have been able to kill Curze up-close and personal on her own merits?
Had it been an Eversor, we would have likely been treated to a lovely description of the Eversor's corpse surrounded by the remains of dozens of slaughtered Night Lords, the Night Haunter's lifeless head clutched almost jealously in his bloodied and Neuro-Gauntleted hand.It's not "oooh female characters should never die!", but that the story completely removes all skill on her part. She may as well have not been there at all.
She still managed to infiltrate inside without anyone but Curze himself noticing.
Your comments on the Eversor are entirely speculation, and also ignore that the Callidus' abilities are what allowed her to infiltrate. How would an Eversor manage it?
Now there I go with my opinion on humans vs Primarchs: I think it is obvious that the Emperor, Malcador and the High Lords of Terra think that a human assassin can take down a Primarch. Proof? They sent assassins to do that mission, and they are not fools. Remember "Nemesis"? A Vindicare, alone, is quite able to kill a Primarch, in the eyes of the people who created the Primarchs.
A. The Emperor had no knowledge of the assassination attempt.
B. Malcador and the High Lords did not create the Primarchs.
C. (This is the important one) They... Oh, that's right, they failed.
Malcador is wrong about a lot of things. For example: He wishes he could have saved Lorgar, viewing him as the most innocent of those who threw their lot in with Chaos. Oh, how wrong he was.
EDIT: More posts happened! Nemesis is a rather... interesting story, on the topic of female characters doing stuff. A number of the team are female, but fail to do anything except get killed by a random daemon. And then the Vindicaire (who killed the Daemon) spaces himself to get a shot at Horus and fails miserably!
You do raise a good point, though, that Assassins were reasonably considered to be able to get the job done. It's just unfortunate that they happened to send a team comprised entirely of the most incompetent assassins in the entire galaxy. Also yeah, poor Marines. I wouldn't mind so much if it was simply that - Kurze letting her kill him because he's crazy. It fits. I didn't know it was a change, but the rest of it on top of that just makes it feel like "Yeah no Callidus suck so yeah".
Nemesis is lacking many things, not among my favorites at all.
About Curze´s death, here is the relevant section from Index Astartes II: Bringers of Darkness.
Spoiler:
It is quite possible that Night Haunter was aware of the fact that the Emperor had finally issued the order for his life to be terminated at the hands of the Callidus temple of assassins. Fully half of the existing Callidus operatives were dispatched to locate and destroy the Primarch, hoping his death would disband the Night Lords forever.
The last words of Night Haunter stand as one of the great enigmas of Imperial history. It is thought that the assassin M'Shen was consciously allowed to infiltrate Night Haunter's grotesque palace on the world of Tsagualsa, an edifice constructed entirely from still-living bodies. Expecting to have to deal with numerous guards and loyal retainers, she was surprised to find the halls of bone and flesh completely deserted. The vid-log built into M'Shen's baroque vambraces, kept in stasis at the heart of the most venerated Callidus shrine, shows the final confrontation between the twisted Primarch and the avenging angel. The events are portrayed thus:
Sitting in a pool of shadow upon a throne made from the fused bones of his victims, a carpet of still-screaming faces leading up to gnarled, naked feet, sits Night Haunter himself. His madness and hate radiate from him, palpable even through such a remote medium as a vid-log. M'Shen stops in her tracks when the fallen Primarch raises his head, her face reflected in the impassive, deep black pools of his eyes. Long moments pass. Then, in a voice thick with contempt and pain, Night Haunter speaks.
"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication."
Then the vid-log blurs for a fraction of a second as M'Shen leaps forwards, and the last image in the recording is of dark, staring eyes brimming with madness above a lipless smile before the recording inexplicably shorts out.
As you can see, the story was tantalizingly vague, as most stories concerning the Primarchs before the books. So ADB... "expanded" it, taking out some stuff he didn´t like, such as the description of the palace of Tsagualsa. And then feel the need to make it clear that Marines are awesome to the point of making the story pointless.
By the way, I strongly recommend the reading of the Index Astartes, all of them. They are among the best fluff ever written for this setting.
Frozen Ocean wrote: Oh, don't get me wrong. I thoroughly love this thread. Watching LightKing repeat the "Guilleman in space" or the other three or four select phrases in response to anything that may or may not be relevant is great.
And you're forgetting the myriad of warp-infused Astartes that creates strange creatures like Obliterators and Mutilators. And the Primarchs are literal demigods and not humans in the least.
But they can be killed.
Some of them were killed, and others were beaten, defeated or wounded by "minor" creatures. Humans, Astartes, their own psychological problems... They are at the top of the food chain, but they can be defeated. Which makes them interesting.
Even that doesn't cover it. Not even a Primarch-sized block of Adamantium could survive these things, so how could they have any hope? "Tanking" shots from these things is as "alleged" as their creation being supernatural (which is only hinted at). Also, if a Titan/Starship weapon could kill one, there is no way that a C'tan Phaseblade would be able to, even if the Primarch in question was letting it happen. The only possible way for anything to take a shot from a starship or Titan is if The Emperor decided to intervene with a supershield of psychic power or something. I'm going with the idea that these stories are massively exaggerated versions of what really happened.
If you are going to just deny and arbitrarily dismiss instances which do not fit with your preconceptions of the setting, you have no place in this thread.
C'tan Phase Blades would penetrate the hardiest of bunkers that even an orbital bombardment wouldn't go through in the fluff. Their source (The C'tan) operate on a scale higher than any Imperial technology.
Daemons are literally made from magic, not "flesh", and are the only "creatures" that match or exceed certain Tyranids for durability.
It is highly implied that the Primarchs are Warp-based. All have a psychic signature and can perceive Warp phenomena, even if they don't have active powers.
(Only read the first two pages so sorry if this has been covered since.)
Melissa said, by the sounds of it, very reasonably, that she believes a meltagun to the face would kill a primarch. This in no way implicates that a cannoness is stronger than a primarch. So your question should read, does a cannoness have a chance of killing a primarch. Or even better, does a 10 year old child holding a meltagun have a chance of killing a primarch (why limited to a cannoness?). The way you have portrayed it is totally out of context to what was discussed by the sound of it and have drawn people in with a title which is intentionally provocative. The title actually in no way reflects the statement you are trying to discuss. You should contact the Daily Mail, Murdoch adores journalists with this 'skill'.
Vulkan surviving being hit by a 1000 ton shell going a fraction of the speed of light (that's what a macro cannon is) and being mostly intact?
Jesus Christ that's a little absurd even for me. That's something that would feth up Post Crisis Superman.
Wyzilla wrote:
And you're forgetting the myriad of warp-infused Astartes that creates strange creatures like Obliterators and Mutilators. And the Primarchs are literal demigods and not humans in the least.
Obliterators and Mutilators are guys wearing Terminator Armour who can make their arms turn into weapons (because of the Warp). I don't see why this has any bearing on whether or not non-Chaotic Primarchs can survive melta shots to the face. Also, maybe they aren't humans, but what possible material are they made of? That's what I'm getting at! Their humanity has nothing to do with it.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Frozen Ocean wrote: The thing is, though, that Primarchs are still made from matter. Organic matter, no less. They may have adamantium-laced bone (even this is doubtful; did they eat regular doses of the stuff while growing up on their individual worlds?) or something, but anything as destructively powerful as even the smallest weapons on a Titan (or indeed, a meltagun) are going to kill them outright unless they have some form of psychic/daemon invulnerable save (Magnus), much less a starship weapon.
To be perfectly blunt, what you "think" has exactly no basis on what actually is.
If your personal canon of 40k doesn't have nigh-invulnerable Primarchs, that is fine, but do not deign to make absolutist statements on their durability when the only basis for it is what you would like to be the case.
And this doesn't also apply to you how, exactly? Everything anyone ever says is what they "think".
Void__Dragon wrote:
Vulkan surviving macron cannons (I forgot who responded to this, this thread and the other one are hard to keep track of replies, but Vulkan, although he is a perpetual, took the macron cannon without needing to regenerate, IIRC), Angron having a mountain dropped on his head, Lorgar actually surviving Titan weaponry (And it must be said he defeated An'ggrath in martial combat, who eats Titans for breakfast), etc. These happened.
Cast-iron proof, of course. Despite repeated mentions of how everything in 40k is meant to be taken with a pinch of salt?
Void__Dragon wrote:
So do you believe that M'Shen should have been able to kill Curze up-close and personal on her own merits?
Maybe, maybe not. Even if she couldn't, that doesn't mean that, as an assassin, she will engage him in close combat regardless just because she has a knife. Part of the skill of an assassin is overcoming obstacles; being unable to best him in close-combat doesn't mean she couldn't have caused his ship to explode or something.
Void__Dragon wrote:
She still managed to infiltrate inside without anyone but Curze himself noticing.
Your comments on the Eversor are entirely speculation, and also ignore that the Callidus' abilities are what allowed her to infiltrate. How would an Eversor manage it?
Because stealth and martial skill are entirely different, and she didn't best the Primarch by sneaking - she bested Space Marines. Which is really no big deal unless the Space Marines happen to also be the protagonists, which they weren't. An Eversor wouldn't have needed to sneak, and would have simply cut a swathe of death through anything that tried to stop him. Unless of course, again, the Space Marines were the protagonists - but they weren't.
Now there I go with my opinion on humans vs Primarchs: I think it is obvious that the Emperor, Malcador and the High Lords of Terra think that a human assassin can take down a Primarch. Proof? They sent assassins to do that mission, and they are not fools. Remember "Nemesis"? A Vindicare, alone, is quite able to kill a Primarch, in the eyes of the people who created the Primarchs.
Void__Dragon wrote:
A. The Emperor had no knowledge of the assassination attempt.
B. Malcador and the High Lords did not create the Primarchs.
C. (This is the important one) They... Oh, that's right, they failed
They didn't fail because they tried to attack a Primarch and said Primarch was impervious to their blades/bullets/etc; they failed because of a hilariously silly series of events, such as two of them essentially getting bored and leaving the mission, many of them getting killed by a Daemon, and the survivor displaying Ork levels of intelligence and spacing himself to try and get a shot at Horus. This didn't fail because the bullet bounced off Horus' invincible Primarchy head, but because the Vindicaire in question was an idiot who spaced himself.
Anyway, back to your original point about why my opinion is just opinion but yours is fact; physics. Seriously, just physics. You might be a super-duper-genetic-amazing-science-man, but you're made of molecules and atoms. Not even adamantium - regarded as the toughest material known to the Imperium - can resist such attacks as what the Primarchs are supposedly capable of. So what are they made of? Melta-immune vehicle armour has to be constructed from very specific materials (thick ceramite and heat capacitors) to resist melta, much less Titan weapons; this means that the skin of a Primarch is stronger than an entire Terminator or better yet, a Land Raider or other AV14 vehicle. They're organisms; they're mostly made of water, which also applies to their brains. Somehow they have super-special-Omega-Ultra-body fluids that can't be evaporated, and cells made from thousands of Land Raiders shrunk down and spun into fibres, but somehow really lightweight.
It also raises the question; why do they all wear armour, then? Master-crafted Terminator armour it seems like, except for Angron who refuses to do it because he's a badass (and therefore only has a 4+ save, I believe). Furthermore, if they really are made from invincibilium, how come they weren't left naked after being shot by space lasers or Titans?
Meanwhile, here's what my sister has to say about this thread after I showed her the bit with the Canoness dropping a Titan on a grot:
What my sister has to say about this thread (AIM) wrote:
40K IS BERY SRS
no fun allowed
stop that fun
right now
don't laugh
this is tiny models we're talking about
pretty much religion
also
can I point out
that thread title
we don't know the difference between 'than' and 'then', apparently
so basically it says
so a Canoness is strong, then! A primarch!
she was just stronger by herself
and then there was also a Primarch
in an unrelated incident
If you are going to just deny and arbitrarily dismiss instances which do not fit with your preconceptions of the setting, you have no place in this thread.
C'tan Phase Blades would penetrate the hardiest of bunkers that even an orbital bombardment wouldn't go through in the fluff. Their source (The C'tan) operate on a scale higher than any Imperial technology.
Daemons are literally made from magic, not "flesh", and are the only "creatures" that match or exceed certain Tyranids for durability.
It is highly implied that the Primarchs are Warp-based. All have a psychic signature and can perceive Warp phenomena, even if they don't have active powers.
The ability of Primarchs to resist these things only works if they have some kind of invincibility shield, as there is no possible physical material they could be made from that would protect them so. You are presuming that they do. So why, then, would a C'tan phaseblade ignore this as it ignores matter? That's my point. It's hardly "arbitrary".
It also really isn't "highly" implied. Sure they might have stronger Warp signatures than normal due to their connection to the Emperor (remember, every soul has a Warp signature), but that doesn't mean they get a 1++ rerollable invulnerable.
Anyone pointed out how a lucky gretchin with a meltagun would also be able to beat a primarch 1v1 yet? How about a lost squig with a meltabomb vs a baneblade or titan?
What my sister has to say about this thread (AIM) wrote: 40K IS BERY SRS no fun allowed stop that fun right now don't laugh this is tiny models we're talking about pretty much religion also can I point out that thread title we don't know the difference between 'than' and 'then', apparently so basically it says so a Canoness is strong, then! A primarch! she was just stronger by herself and then there was also a Primarch in an unrelated incident
I detect a hint of mockery. That is most heretical, and not at all SUPA SRS BIZNIZ. The fact that was in caps should give you an idea about how srs this is.
What about the grot who began the 14th and final Black Crusade? You see, there was an Imperial warship about to enact a bold plan; fire an incredibly large barrage of Vortex Missiles into the Eye of Terror, and hope it goes away.
Meanwhile, on the other side of the galaxy, a grot is fired through a SAG and ends up on this ship. Wandering for a while, this grot finds some buttons, which it promptly pushes.
Vortex missiles consume Cadia, and the Eye of Terror swells to consume the entire galaxy. Rocks fall, everyone dies.
EDIT: But wait! The Primarchs all wake up (they can't actually die, they just felt like taking a nap) and kick all the daemons and Chaos Gods out of the galaxy, where they get eaten by Tyranids/the Reapers from Mass Effect. Then they flew around space with their Superman flight (they all have wings like Sanguinius but they're invisible) and use SCIENCE to resurrect the humans and Necrontyr and Eldar and C'tan and Orks, except they're all friends now. In the bright light of the 42nd Millennium, there is only peace and love and the awkward life of Ferrus Manus, who is still just a head (but alive, because he doesn't require organs to function).
i like how people are trying to question what my motives are....lol
"he's sexist cause he always pits woman against men, primarchs".... no im not.... i have always said no one man and woman could take on a primarch unless with a special weapon/chaos amped or a very special curcumstance
in fact...i can say the same argument that some of you are to PC (politically correct) that its hard for you to admit that a man could beat a woman, in this case a primarch could beat a woman/battle sister.... so you wont admit it on the internet and try to come up with insane circumstances......... why it isn't true
Automatically Appended Next Post: and now da001 is saying a human could beat a primarch... i mean come on,... its such a freaking politically correct stance to take.....
Now there I go with my opinion on humans vs Primarchs: I think it is obvious that the Emperor, Malcador and the High Lords of Terra think that a human assassin can take down a Primarch. Proof? They sent assassins to do that mission, and they are not fools. Remember "Nemesis"? A Vindicare, alone, is quite able to kill a Primarch, in the eyes of the people who created the Primarchs.
A. The Emperor had no knowledge of the assassination attempt.
B. Malcador and the High Lords did not create the Primarchs.
C. (This is the important one) They... Oh, that's right, they failed.
Malcador is wrong about a lot of things. For example: He wishes he could have saved Lorgar, viewing him as the most innocent of those who threw their lot in with Chaos. Oh, how wrong he was.
Hey I nearly missed that post.
A: The Emperor sent the assassins against Curze... or so it is said. And the Emperor and Horus didn´t sent assassins against each other because both of them thought it was dishonorable. I know how it sounds, it is impossible to talk about Primarchs and not stumbling against something that sounds odd. But it is the way it is written.
B: Look, LightKing, could you please stop.... Wait, you are not LightKing. Where did I say that Malcador and the High Lords created the Primarchs? Is my evil twin using my Dakka account again? Wait, this doesn´t make sense, I am the evil twin. Anyway, Malcador gave the information at his disposal to the Officio in order to kill Horus. How much information is that? I don´t know. But I think it is a lot of information, it is Malcador we are talking about.
C: Hey, Curze is dead. And the team sent against Horus, while being consistenty depicted as morons, failed only because Horus somehow knew of the assassination attempt and sent a decoy.
If you think about it, Lorgar could be saved with a little more diplomacy on the Emperor´s part. Anyway, I always thought the Emperor knew what was coming, and he treated Lorgar (and Angron, and Perturabo, and Magnus...) more or less to get what he got. My opinion, though.
Frozen Ocean wrote: (...)
They didn't fail because they tried to attack a Primarch and said Primarch was impervious to their blades/bullets/etc; they failed because of a hilariously silly series of events, such as two of them essentially getting bored and leaving the mission, many of them getting killed by a Daemon, and the survivor displaying Ork levels of intelligence and spacing himself to try and get a shot at Horus. This didn't fail because the bullet bounced off Horus' invincible Primarchy head, but because the Vindicaire in question was an idiot who spaced himself.
^This. It is not a good book.
(...)
It also raises the question; why do they all wear armour, then? Master-crafted Terminator armour it seems like, except for Angron who refuses to do it because he's a badass (and therefore only has a 4+ save, I believe). Furthermore, if they really are made from invincibilium, how come they weren't left naked after being shot by space lasers or Titans?
Good point.
Meanwhile, here's what my sister has to say about this thread after I showed her the bit with the Canoness dropping a Titan on a grot.
Stop feeding your sister with that nonsense!! Sister Macarena was not a Canoness when she dropped the Titan on the grot. She was 18!
What my sister has to say about this thread (AIM) wrote:
40K IS BERY SRS
no fun allowed
stop that fun
right now
don't laugh
this is tiny models we're talking about
pretty much religion
also
can I point out
that thread title
we don't know the difference between 'than' and 'then', apparently
so basically it says
so a Canoness is strong, then! A primarch!
she was just stronger by herself
and then there was also a Primarch
in an unrelated incident
Did your sister sent you this through an Astropath? The style is similar.
Anyway, that´s a good catch. I would never have spotted without her help that the title had a hidden message.
"So a Canoness is stronger
THEN (suddenly) a wild Primarch!"
Another enigma to resolve. Whay was the Primarch there? To find out why the Canoness is stronger, obviouly. But, how did he know?!??
Unit1126PLL wrote: I think that Sister = Primarch in a BATTLE. As in, give both equipment, (including guns), GO!
I think a Primarch would probably beat a sister to a pulp in hand-to-hand...
....which is exactly why guns were invented.
This thread is like saying "MY FRIEND SAID PEOPLE WERE EQUAL TO LIONS!"
"Well, we do use GUNS. And have civilization."
"YEAH but a LION could pulp us in Close Combat!"
"Well, that's a given, but seriously, check your temperature - you're overheating."
Surely you jest. A battle sister, in no circumstances is equal to a primarch. A battle sister would be ripped in thirds by a naked primarch before she could pull the trigger. Even if the primarch was hit, he might get slightly singed.
cause your trying to be so politically correct da001...saying a human is more powerful then a primarch....i notice that many fiction fans argue in political correct terms, and view various fictions through a PC or "progressive lens"
because the primarchs are male, and the battle sisters are female...to say the primarchs could beat them (even because they could) but since the primarchs are men, it doesn't seem right......
TheCustomLime wrote: You know, it's possible that the stories of primarchs not being killed by huge weapons are just tall tales based on things they actually did. Like, the story of Lorgar surviving a plasma blast was actually just an incident where he was in the vicinity of a huge plasma blast, managed to live by some miracle and his "sons" aggrandized the tale to make him look better. Guilliman may have just been spaced as a breach was opened up in his ship and managed to live despite the length of time spent in vacuum. People tend to stretch the facts as stories are told and retold.
Personally, I think a Conscript could kill a Primarch if he got a good hit off with a Plasma Cannon. It's just that the Primarchs are so good at what they do that it would never happen to them with a little bit of luck.
Either that or the Primarchs really are that tough and this setting is even more shallow than I thought.
Why would that make it shallow?
Some of the best stories ever told (The classic and Norse mythologies of old, All Star Superman, etc.) involve super powerful characters doing super powerful things.
Shallow=/=Unentertaining. The Halo series is very shallow as far as SciFi shooty-blammy fests go but it's one of my favorite stories. The Primarchs being able to resist Plasma blasts makes 40k more shallow because it's basically saying, "Oh, here is a bunch of powerful weaponry. Well, guess what? Here are even more powerfuller people who make a mockery of those powerful weapons. And there are even more powerful people than them!". It's lame story writing and it's one of the things I dislike about the franchise (Particularly Necrons).
To each their own, I suppose, but I really don't like heroes that can't be killed by any average joe. There's barely any suspense until you introduce powerfuller characters and then it goes downhill from there as you keep introducing more and more powerfuller characters. Dragonball Z pulled it off okay, admittedly, but DBZ isn't a war drama.
Why did the Primarchs need to be uberpowerful , anyway? It seems like it would only be a liability in case they went rogue because you couldn't put them down without wasting more resources then they were worth.
Anyway, that´s a good catch. I would never have spotted without her help that the title had a hidden message.
"So a Canoness is stronger
THEN (suddenly) a wild Primarch!"
Another enigma to resolve. Whay was the Primarch there? To find out why the Canoness is stronger, obviouly. But, how did he know?!??
The canoness was obviously walking through unusually tall grass at the time. She now has to reduce the primarch to roughly 10% health, and throw a tessaract labyrinth at him.
And a guardsman has a ~17% chance of surviving being shot at by... pretty much anything unharmed. The tabletop game isn't meant to portray completely accurately the reality of the 40k universe.
does anyone think Frozen Ocean says these things, because he hates the primarchs because they are all male...... but if they were all female, he would be singing a different tone
its hard for him to accept that the primarchs could beat the battle sisters cause it goes against his PC ideology
ThePrimordial wrote: Vulkan surviving being hit by a 1000 ton shell going a fraction of the speed of light (that's what a macro cannon is) and being mostly intact?
Jesus Christ that's a little absurd even for me. That's something that would feth up Post Crisis Superman.
Pssshh.
Superman was knocked briefly unconscious by a supernova. A macro cannon would probably just rip through his bioelectric aura and mess up his suit a bit while knocking him backwards. He'd be up and running a few seconds later.
Wyzilla wrote:
And you're forgetting the myriad of warp-infused Astartes that creates strange creatures like Obliterators and Mutilators. And the Primarchs are literal demigods and not humans in the least.
Obliterators and Mutilators are guys wearing Terminator Armour who can make their arms turn into weapons (because of the Warp). I don't see why this has any bearing on whether or not non-Chaotic Primarchs can survive melta shots to the face. Also, maybe they aren't humans, but what possible material are they made of? That's what I'm getting at! Their humanity has nothing to do with it.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Frozen Ocean wrote: The thing is, though, that Primarchs are still made from matter. Organic matter, no less. They may have adamantium-laced bone (even this is doubtful; did they eat regular doses of the stuff while growing up on their individual worlds?) or something, but anything as destructively powerful as even the smallest weapons on a Titan (or indeed, a meltagun) are going to kill them outright unless they have some form of psychic/daemon invulnerable save (Magnus), much less a starship weapon.
To be perfectly blunt, what you "think" has exactly no basis on what actually is.
If your personal canon of 40k doesn't have nigh-invulnerable Primarchs, that is fine, but do not deign to make absolutist statements on their durability when the only basis for it is what you would like to be the case.
And this doesn't also apply to you how, exactly? Everything anyone ever says is what they "think".
Void__Dragon wrote:
Vulkan surviving macron cannons (I forgot who responded to this, this thread and the other one are hard to keep track of replies, but Vulkan, although he is a perpetual, took the macron cannon without needing to regenerate, IIRC), Angron having a mountain dropped on his head, Lorgar actually surviving Titan weaponry (And it must be said he defeated An'ggrath in martial combat, who eats Titans for breakfast), etc. These happened.
Cast-iron proof, of course. Despite repeated mentions of how everything in 40k is meant to be taken with a pinch of salt?
Void__Dragon wrote:
So do you believe that M'Shen should have been able to kill Curze up-close and personal on her own merits?
Maybe, maybe not. Even if she couldn't, that doesn't mean that, as an assassin, she will engage him in close combat regardless just because she has a knife. Part of the skill of an assassin is overcoming obstacles; being unable to best him in close-combat doesn't mean she couldn't have caused his ship to explode or something.
Void__Dragon wrote:
She still managed to infiltrate inside without anyone but Curze himself noticing.
Your comments on the Eversor are entirely speculation, and also ignore that the Callidus' abilities are what allowed her to infiltrate. How would an Eversor manage it?
Because stealth and martial skill are entirely different, and she didn't best the Primarch by sneaking - she bested Space Marines. Which is really no big deal unless the Space Marines happen to also be the protagonists, which they weren't. An Eversor wouldn't have needed to sneak, and would have simply cut a swathe of death through anything that tried to stop him. Unless of course, again, the Space Marines were the protagonists - but they weren't.
Now there I go with my opinion on humans vs Primarchs: I think it is obvious that the Emperor, Malcador and the High Lords of Terra think that a human assassin can take down a Primarch. Proof? They sent assassins to do that mission, and they are not fools. Remember "Nemesis"? A Vindicare, alone, is quite able to kill a Primarch, in the eyes of the people who created the Primarchs.
Void__Dragon wrote:
A. The Emperor had no knowledge of the assassination attempt.
B. Malcador and the High Lords did not create the Primarchs.
C. (This is the important one) They... Oh, that's right, they failed
They didn't fail because they tried to attack a Primarch and said Primarch was impervious to their blades/bullets/etc; they failed because of a hilariously silly series of events, such as two of them essentially getting bored and leaving the mission, many of them getting killed by a Daemon, and the survivor displaying Ork levels of intelligence and spacing himself to try and get a shot at Horus. This didn't fail because the bullet bounced off Horus' invincible Primarchy head, but because the Vindicaire in question was an idiot who spaced himself.
Anyway, back to your original point about why my opinion is just opinion but yours is fact; physics. Seriously, just physics. You might be a super-duper-genetic-amazing-science-man, but you're made of molecules and atoms. Not even adamantium - regarded as the toughest material known to the Imperium - can resist such attacks as what the Primarchs are supposedly capable of. So what are they made of? Melta-immune vehicle armour has to be constructed from very specific materials (thick ceramite and heat capacitors) to resist melta, much less Titan weapons; this means that the skin of a Primarch is stronger than an entire Terminator or better yet, a Land Raider or other AV14 vehicle. They're organisms; they're mostly made of water, which also applies to their brains. Somehow they have super-special-Omega-Ultra-body fluids that can't be evaporated, and cells made from thousands of Land Raiders shrunk down and spun into fibres, but somehow really lightweight.
It also raises the question; why do they all wear armour, then? Master-crafted Terminator armour it seems like, except for Angron who refuses to do it because he's a badass (and therefore only has a 4+ save, I believe). Furthermore, if they really are made from invincibilium, how come they weren't left naked after being shot by space lasers or Titans?
Meanwhile, here's what my sister has to say about this thread after I showed her the bit with the Canoness dropping a Titan on a grot:
What my sister has to say about this thread (AIM) wrote:
40K IS BERY SRS
no fun allowed
stop that fun
right now
don't laugh
this is tiny models we're talking about
pretty much religion
also
can I point out
that thread title
we don't know the difference between 'than' and 'then', apparently
so basically it says
so a Canoness is strong, then! A primarch!
she was just stronger by herself
and then there was also a Primarch
in an unrelated incident
Because Obliterators and Mutilators are warp-spawn/warp mutated, like the Primarchs. They flawlessly tank firearms and can regenerate from nearly anything. The Primarchs are not human. They are not remotely close to humans and rather are supersoldiers created by the Emperor via technomancy and witchcraft.
LightKing wrote: does anyone think Frozen Ocean says these things, because he hates the primarchs because they are all male...... but if they were all female, he would be singing a different tone
its hard for him to accept that the primarchs could beat the battle sisters cause it goes against his PC ideology
It is the opposite of PC to support one gender against another.
But yes, IMO a primarch could crush a sister as an afterthought.
LightKing wrote: does anyone think Frozen Ocean says these things, because he hates the primarchs because they are all male...... but if they were all female, he would be singing a different tone
its hard for him to accept that the primarchs could beat the battle sisters cause it goes against his PC ideology
It is the opposite of PC to support one gender against another.
But yes, IMO a primarch could crush a sister as an afterthought.
no, what i mean by PC is the image....... since the Primarchs are all male....and the battle sisters are female.....it doesn't seem right that a primarch could beat a battle sister.. because it reinforces man vs. woman
what im trying to get is..that alot of people on this forum have trouble accepting Primarch>>>Battle Sister, but could accept Primarch>>>Marine....even if Sister=Marine
because Primarch vs. Marine is Man vs. Man...so its not as bad
@The misoginy thing: No. Women are generally worse at combat, that much is true (I should know, I am female myself and I train in martial arts) but this is mostly due to usually having less muscle mass and other things like that. At the power differences we are talking about here, a Marine would die to a Primarch just as easily as a Sister or a Guardsman would.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: @The misoginy thing: No. Women are generally worse at combat, that much is true (I should know, I am female myself and I train in martial arts) but this is mostly due to usually having less muscle mass and other things like that. At the power differences we are talking about here, a Marine would die to a Primarch just as easily as a Sister or a Guardsman would.
women tend to be more technical/skilled fighters then men, but often like you said, that can't make up for strength differences
I think standard weaponry like melta guns could still kill a Primarch, but it would probably take several shots, depending on how powerful the weapon is. And of course, if you're lucky enough to get a first shot on a Primarch, you'll be astronomically lucky to get a second.
The first shot would likely scorch and blister the face. The second shot would burn and char the skin down to the bone. The third shot would damage the skull. And the fourth shot and so on would be the point at which potentially fatal brain damage would be caused.
Primarchs are described in the fluff as extremely hard to kill.
Lorgar is stabbed in the gut by Corax's lightning claw but barely registers it (he headbuts Corax a few times and breaks his nose), until Corax starts heaving up and mauling Lorgar's internal organs. (First Heretic).
Corax grabs a fistful of frag grenades, thrusts them inside a tank and detonates them in his hand - the explosion just numbs his hand. (Raven's Flight).
BrotherHaraldus wrote: @The misoginy thing: No. Women are generally worse at combat, that much is true (I should know, I am female myself and I train in martial arts) but this is mostly due to usually having less muscle mass and other things like that. At the power differences we are talking about here, a Marine would die to a Primarch just as easily as a Sister or a Guardsman would.
women tend to be more technical/skilled fighters then men, but often like you said, that can't make up for strength differences
I have never heard anywhere that women are supposed to be more technical/skilled.
I assume the average military trained man and woman are equally skilled.
A Primarch could easily beat a marine. They could also easily beat a sister. They could also defeat a Chapter Master and they can defeat Canonesses. They can do this because they are they are the apex of the Imperial war machine.
LightKing wrote: and now da001 is saying a human could beat a primarch... i mean come on,... its such a freaking politically correct stance to take.....
(...)
cause your trying to be so politically correct da001...saying a human is more powerful then a primarch....i notice that many fiction fans argue in political correct terms, and view various fictions through a PC or "progressive lens"
because the primarchs are male, and the battle sisters are female...to say the primarchs could beat them (even because they could) but since the primarchs are men, it doesn't seem right......
you want evidence of my theory= Frozen Ocean
Hey! Hi again! Wow that´s your biggest post to date. Welcome back to SUPA SRS BIZNIZ.
Actually, I have been defending the "human vs Primarchs" thing for about 10 pages, in two different threads. It has been a long and bloody path to get to this point. Do not hesitate in opening a new thread if you think you need it!
Surely you jest. A battle sister, in no circumstances is equal to a primarch. A battle sister would be ripped in thirds by a naked primarch before she could pull the trigger. Even if the primarch was hit, he might get slightly singed.
Wait... why is he naked?
Frozen Ocean wrote: What about the grot who began the 14th and final Black Crusade? You see, there was an Imperial warship about to enact a bold plan; fire an incredibly large barrage of Vortex Missiles into the Eye of Terror, and hope it goes away.
Meanwhile, on the other side of the galaxy, a grot is fired through a SAG and ends up on this ship. Wandering for a while, this grot finds some buttons, which it promptly pushes.
Vortex missiles consume Cadia, and the Eye of Terror swells to consume the entire galaxy. Rocks fall, everyone dies.
EDIT: But wait! The Primarchs all wake up (they can't actually die, they just felt like taking a nap) and kick all the daemons and Chaos Gods out of the galaxy, where they get eaten by Tyranids/the Reapers from Mass Effect. Then they flew around space with their Superman flight (they all have wings like Sanguinius but they're invisible) and use SCIENCE to resurrect the humans and Necrontyr and Eldar and C'tan and Orks, except they're all friends now. In the bright light of the 42nd Millennium, there is only peace and love and the awkward life of Ferrus Manus, who is still just a head (but alive, because he doesn't require organs to function).
With your permission, I would like to adapt this brilliant fluff to incorporate it to Sister Macarena´s fluff, if her parents allow me.
Perhaps she resurrects after the grot incident and then turns Slaanesh (of course) and kills all these Primarchs, in retaliation for one of them killing his boyfriend An'ggrath (you know, the one who was always an´ggryth).
Right I get the PC comment about gender... But how the hell can you claim somebody is being politically correct because they claim a man can kill a Primarch??? Primarchs aren't real! That's like claiming that somebody who says a goblin from a Tolkein novel doesn't have bad manners, is just being overly politically correct. No they aren't. Guess why? Goblins aren't real! Do you really understand the definition of political correctness? It means the adjustment of views or language to avoid offense to others. Well you can't offend a primarch... because they don't really exist!
LightKing wrote: and now da001 is saying a human could beat a primarch... i mean come on,... its such a freaking politically correct stance to take.....
(...)
cause your trying to be so politically correct da001...saying a human is more powerful then a primarch....i notice that many fiction fans argue in political correct terms, and view various fictions through a PC or "progressive lens"
because the primarchs are male, and the battle sisters are female...to say the primarchs could beat them (even because they could) but since the primarchs are men, it doesn't seem right......
you want evidence of my theory= Frozen Ocean
Hey! Hi again! Wow that´s your biggest post to date. Welcome back to SUPA SRS BIZNIZ.
Actually, I have been defending the "human vs Primarchs" thing for about 10 pages, in two different threads. It has been a long and bloody path to get to this point. Do not hesitate in opening a new thread if you think you need it!
Surely you jest. A battle sister, in no circumstances is equal to a primarch. A battle sister would be ripped in thirds by a naked primarch before she could pull the trigger. Even if the primarch was hit, he might get slightly singed.
Wait... why is he naked?
Frozen Ocean wrote: What about the grot who began the 14th and final Black Crusade? You see, there was an Imperial warship about to enact a bold plan; fire an incredibly large barrage of Vortex Missiles into the Eye of Terror, and hope it goes away.
Meanwhile, on the other side of the galaxy, a grot is fired through a SAG and ends up on this ship. Wandering for a while, this grot finds some buttons, which it promptly pushes.
Vortex missiles consume Cadia, and the Eye of Terror swells to consume the entire galaxy. Rocks fall, everyone dies.
EDIT: But wait! The Primarchs all wake up (they can't actually die, they just felt like taking a nap) and kick all the daemons and Chaos Gods out of the galaxy, where they get eaten by Tyranids/the Reapers from Mass Effect. Then they flew around space with their Superman flight (they all have wings like Sanguinius but they're invisible) and use SCIENCE to resurrect the humans and Necrontyr and Eldar and C'tan and Orks, except they're all friends now. In the bright light of the 42nd Millennium, there is only peace and love and the awkward life of Ferrus Manus, who is still just a head (but alive, because he doesn't require organs to function).
With your permission, I would like to adapt this brilliant fluff to incorporate it to Sister Macarena´s fluff, if her parents allow me.
Perhaps she resurrects after the grot incident and then turns Slaanesh (of course) and kills all these Primarchs, in retaliation for one of them killing his boyfriend An'ggrath (you know, the one who was always an´ggryth).
but...they wouldn't a human could not beat a primarch, its simple as that, what are you defending?
Surely you jest. A battle sister, in no circumstances is equal to a primarch. A battle sister would be ripped in thirds by a naked primarch before she could pull the trigger. Even if the primarch was hit, he might get slightly singed.
Wait... why is he naked?
It was to illustrate just how little a primarch would need to remove a battle sister.
Poly Ranger wrote: Right I get the PC comment about gender... But how the hell can you claim somebody is being politically correct because they claim a man can kill a Primarch??? Primarchs aren't real! That's like claiming that somebody who says a goblin from a Tolkein novel doesn't have bad manners, is just being overly politically correct. No they aren't. Guess why? Goblins aren't real! Do you really understand the definition of political correctness? It means the adjustment of views or language to avoid offense to others. Well you can't offend a primarch... because they don't really exist!
what im trying to say is, in real world terms how we look at things, can reflect how we view certain fiction...... i seen this in alot of versus threads when its a male character vs. female character, and the male character should win, by logic....but usually their is insane defences and justifications.....
LightKing wrote: does anyone think Frozen Ocean says these things, because he hates the primarchs because they are all male...... but if they were all female, he would be singing a different tone
its hard for him to accept that the primarchs could beat the battle sisters cause it goes against his PC ideology
It is the opposite of PC to support one gender against another.
But yes, IMO a primarch could crush a sister as an afterthought.
If Vulkan (who is immortal and will just return anyway) survived a teraton (multi) hit he could do a pelvic thrust 30 yards away from a sister and rip her to shreds with the shockeave created.
LightKing wrote: does anyone think Frozen Ocean says these things, because he hates the primarchs because they are all male...... but if they were all female, he would be singing a different tone
its hard for him to accept that the primarchs could beat the battle sisters cause it goes against his PC ideology
It is the opposite of PC to support one gender against another.
But yes, IMO a primarch could crush a sister as an afterthought.
If Vulkan (who is immortal and will just return anyway) survived a teraton (multi) hit he could do a pelvic thrust 30 yards away from a sister and rip her to shreds with the shockeave created.
LightKing wrote: does anyone think Frozen Ocean says these things, because he hates the primarchs because they are all male...... but if they were all female, he would be singing a different tone
its hard for him to accept that the primarchs could beat the battle sisters cause it goes against his PC ideology
It is the opposite of PC to support one gender against another.
But yes, IMO a primarch could crush a sister as an afterthought.
If Vulkan (who is immortal and will just return anyway) survived a teraton (multi) hit he could do a pelvic thrust 30 yards away from a sister and rip her to shreds with the shockeave created.
Poly Ranger wrote: Right I get the PC comment about gender... But how the hell can you claim somebody is being politically correct because they claim a man can kill a Primarch??? Primarchs aren't real! That's like claiming that somebody who says a goblin from a Tolkein novel doesn't have bad manners, is just being overly politically correct. No they aren't. Guess why? Goblins aren't real! Do you really understand the definition of political correctness? It means the adjustment of views or language to avoid offense to others. Well you can't offend a primarch... because they don't really exist!
what im trying to say is, in real world terms how we look at things, can reflect how we view certain fiction...... i seen this in alot of versus threads when its a male character vs. female character, and the male character should win, by logic....but usually their is insane defences and justifications.....
its more of a mentality thing
Yeh - I totally get what you mean with the political correctness involving gender. Might not necessarily agree that that's why the other posters say what they are saying. But I have seen such political correctness applied which has created a sort of inversed prejudice before (aka positive discrimination).
However, I am at a loss to see how you can apply the political correctness term when talking about a human beating a primarch. One is real, one is not. There is no political correctness issue. A person saying a human is more intelligent than an elder for example, isn't being politically correct for the sake of the human, because the term political correctness cannot apply, as the elder are not real.
LightKing wrote:i like how people are trying to question what my motives are....lol
"he's sexist cause he always pits woman against men, primarchs".... no im not.... i have always said no one man and woman could take on a primarch unless with a special weapon/chaos amped or a very special curcumstance
in fact...i can say the same argument that some of you are to PC (politically correct) that its hard for you to admit that a man could beat a woman, in this case a primarch could beat a woman/battle sister.... so you wont admit it on the internet and try to come up with insane circumstances......... why it isn't true
Automatically Appended Next Post: and now da001 is saying a human could beat a primarch... i mean come on,... its such a freaking politically correct stance to take.....
Yes, the Politically Correct Meltagun To The Face. I know it well.
da001 wrote:Stop feeding your sister with that nonsense!! Sister Macarena was not a Canoness when she dropped the Titan on the grot. She was 18!
Obviously she was already a Canoness at age 18, because although all Sisters can bench-press Titans, she demonstrated her skill at Titan-tossing by reaching through the fourth wall, grabbing the Escalation rulebook, and beating a Revenant Titan to death with it.
da001 wrote:
Did your sister sent you this through an Astropath? The style is similar.
AIM! Or Astropathic Imperial Messaging.
da001 wrote:
Anyway, that´s a good catch. I would never have spotted without her help that the title had a hidden message.
"So a Canoness is stronger
THEN (suddenly) a wild Primarch!"
Another enigma to resolve. Whay was the Primarch there? To find out why the Canoness is stronger, obviouly. But, how did he know?!??
His mystical amazing godpowers he has because he's a Primarch, of course.
LightKing wrote:cause your trying to be so politically correct da001...saying a human is more powerful then a primarch....i notice that many fiction fans argue in political correct terms, and view various fictions through a PC or "progressive lens"
because the primarchs are male, and the battle sisters are female...to say the primarchs could beat them (even because they could) but since the primarchs are men, it doesn't seem right......
you want evidence of my theory= Frozen Ocean
LightKing wrote:
Subject: hey
like how you are trying to question what my motives are....lol
"he's sexist cause he always pits woman against men, primarchs".... no im not.... i have always said no one man and woman could take on a primarch unless with a special weapon/chaos amped or a very special curcumstance
in fact...i can say the same argument that some of you are to PC (politically correct) that its hard for you to admit that a man could beat a woman, in this case a primarch could beat a woman/battle sister.... so you wont admit it on the internet and try to come up with insane circumstances......... why it isn't true
but you dont know alot about 40k if you think a human (man or woman) could beat a primarch
LightKing, I have been participating in this thread for quite a few posts now. Why did you PM this to me?
I was merely pointing out a trend. It seems to be "Sister of Battle" repeatedly from you, and being quite a bit overzealous about the whole thing (PMing several people about it, for a start). If you'd actually read anyone's posts, you would realise that it isn't the issue (you're the one who brought up Sisters, specifically, more than once). I don't care if it's a Canoness, Chapter Master, Space Marine Scout, Chaos Chosen, Raptor, Guardsman, Guardswoman, male Ogryn, female Ogryn, Baneblade driver, Ork, Necron, male Fire Warrior, female Fire Warrior, Tyranid, male Princeps, female Princeps, male Aspect Warrior, female Aspect Warrior - if they have a gun capable of vaporising all but specially-designed armour, they are capable of killing a Primarch by shooting them with said gun.
You are the only one to (repeatedly) bring up whether or not a Canoness (or any form of Sister) could kill a Primarch in melee. Given how you point blank ignore many of the things said in replies and simply pick up on the word "Primarch" or "Sister", and then respond with "Sisters can't be Primarchs in hand to hand" or something to that effect, it was very suspicious. You don't argue "Primarchs are too tough for meltas to kill", you argue "There's no way a Sister could kill a Primarch!". Repeatedly. Now you're arguing "political correctness" as if this is some kind of trump card that negates all points made against you. See my post about why the Callidus story is bad. I mentioned how it would have been different had the assassin been an Eversor (because they are usually male, unlike Callidus); even though this hypothetical Eversor still died, it was a better representation of skill rather than "Konrad let her do it and then she got mutilated horribly by Soul Drinker or whatever". It's still an underwhelming story if the assassin was male, while the Eversor version would be much more interesting regardless of the assassin's gender. It's just unfortunate - not because died, but because it's so rare for female characters to get a chance to do anything meaningful in 40k, and once again, a Callidus gets randomly murdered and mutilated (specifically mutilated, much like how the other one got "flayed alive") after helping a man commit suicide.
What really seems to rile you - based entirely upon this thread and the PMs mentioned within it - is the concept of a Sister of Battle defeating a Primarch. You say this several times. Not "mortal", not "human", not even just "Non-Primarch" or "meltagun" - you very specifically mention Sisters over and over again. So no, it's not me being overly PC. If you would like to avoid people getting this impression, perhaps you shouldn't specifically target women with your argument.
EDIT: Wooooah, so much thread happened.
da001: You have my full permission!
LightKing: As others have said (and I), you bring up "Sister". I am not disputing that a Sister of Battle or anything less than a Bio-Titan/Titan/Primarch/Greater Daemon could reasonably fight a Primarch in close combat. This isn't about Primarch vs Sister, it's about Primarch vs melta shot to the face. Is a melta shot female? Am I discriminating against men because obviously melta beams, being female, automatically win? No. I'm saying that someone's face, no matter how super-enhanced they are, will melt when shot with a weapon that reduces tanks to slag.
A one teraton hit would have an effect radius of 20% of the planet.
The KT impact was at most only 10 teratons.
I mean daaaaayyyyyuuuummm.
For those who want to do the calcs a shell from a macro cannon is 1000 tons and moves at 3000000 m/s or 1% the speed of light and KE= 1/2 mass*velocity (squared)E
LightKing wrote:i like how people are trying to question what my motives are....lol
"he's sexist cause he always pits woman against men, primarchs".... no im not.... i have always said no one man and woman could take on a primarch unless with a special weapon/chaos amped or a very special curcumstance
in fact...i can say the same argument that some of you are to PC (politically correct) that its hard for you to admit that a man could beat a woman, in this case a primarch could beat a woman/battle sister.... so you wont admit it on the internet and try to come up with insane circumstances......... why it isn't true
Automatically Appended Next Post: and now da001 is saying a human could beat a primarch... i mean come on,... its such a freaking politically correct stance to take.....
Yes, the Politically Correct Meltagun To The Face. I know it well.
da001 wrote:Stop feeding your sister with that nonsense!! Sister Macarena was not a Canoness when she dropped the Titan on the grot. She was 18!
Obviously she was already a Canoness at age 18, because although all Sisters can bench-press Titans, she demonstrated her skill at Titan-tossing by reaching through the fourth wall, grabbing the Escalation rulebook, and beating a Revenant Titan to death with it.
da001 wrote:
Did your sister sent you this through an Astropath? The style is similar.
AIM! Or Astropathic Imperial Messaging.
da001 wrote:
Anyway, that´s a good catch. I would never have spotted without her help that the title had a hidden message.
"So a Canoness is stronger
THEN (suddenly) a wild Primarch!"
Another enigma to resolve. Whay was the Primarch there? To find out why the Canoness is stronger, obviouly. But, how did he know?!??
His mystical amazing godpowers he has because he's a Primarch, of course.
LightKing wrote:cause your trying to be so politically correct da001...saying a human is more powerful then a primarch....i notice that many fiction fans argue in political correct terms, and view various fictions through a PC or "progressive lens"
because the primarchs are male, and the battle sisters are female...to say the primarchs could beat them (even because they could) but since the primarchs are men, it doesn't seem right......
you want evidence of my theory= Frozen Ocean
LightKing wrote:
Subject: hey
like how you are trying to question what my motives are....lol
"he's sexist cause he always pits woman against men, primarchs".... no im not.... i have always said no one man and woman could take on a primarch unless with a special weapon/chaos amped or a very special curcumstance
in fact...i can say the same argument that some of you are to PC (politically correct) that its hard for you to admit that a man could beat a woman, in this case a primarch could beat a woman/battle sister.... so you wont admit it on the internet and try to come up with insane circumstances......... why it isn't true
but you dont know alot about 40k if you think a human (man or woman) could beat a primarch
LightKing, I have been participating in this thread for quite a few posts now. Why did you PM this to me?
I was merely pointing out a trend. It seems to be "Sister of Battle" repeatedly from you, and being quite a bit overzealous about the whole thing (PMing several people about it, for a start). If you'd actually read anyone's posts, you would realise that it isn't the issue (you're the one who brought up Sisters, specifically, more than once). I don't care if it's a Canoness, Chapter Master, Space Marine Scout, Chaos Chosen, Raptor, Guardsman, Guardswoman, male Ogryn, female Ogryn, Baneblade driver, Ork, Necron, male Fire Warrior, female Fire Warrior, Tyranid, male Princeps, female Princeps, male Aspect Warrior, female Aspect Warrior - if they have a gun capable of vaporising all but specially-designed armour, they are capable of killing a Primarch by shooting them with said gun.
You are the only one to (repeatedly) bring up whether or not a Canoness (or any form of Sister) could kill a Primarch in melee. Given how you point blank ignore many of the things said in replies and simply pick up on the word "Primarch" or "Sister", and then respond with "Sisters can't be Primarchs in hand to hand" or something to that effect, it was very suspicious. You don't argue "Primarchs are too tough for meltas to kill", you argue "There's no way a Sister could kill a Primarch!". Repeatedly. Now you're arguing "political correctness" as if this is some kind of trump card that negates all points made against you. See my post about why the Callidus story is bad. I mentioned how it would have been different had the assassin been an Eversor (because they are usually male, unlike Callidus); even though this hypothetical Eversor still died, it was a better representation of skill rather than "Konrad let her do it and then she got mutilated horribly by Soul Drinker or whatever". It's still an underwhelming story if the assassin was male, while the Eversor version would be much more interesting regardless of the assassin's gender. It's just unfortunate - not because died, but because it's so rare for female characters to get a chance to do anything meaningful in 40k, and once again, a Callidus gets randomly murdered and mutilated (specifically mutilated, much like how the other one got "flayed alive") after helping a man commit suicide.
What really seems to rile you - based entirely upon this thread and the PMs mentioned within it - is the concept of a Sister of Battle defeating a Primarch. You say this several times. Not "mortal", not "human", not even just "Non-Primarch" or "meltagun" - you very specifically mention Sisters over and over again. So no, it's not me being overly PC. If you would like to avoid people getting this impression, perhaps you shouldn't specifically target women with your argument.
but maybe you should use logic of the fiction then
most 40k fans would agree that a primarch destroys a sister, yet people like you and da001 say a sister would destroy a primarch
Surely you jest. A battle sister, in no circumstances is equal to a primarch. A battle sister would be ripped in thirds by a naked primarch before she could pull the trigger. Even if the primarch was hit, he might get slightly singed.
Wait... why is he naked?
It was to illustrate just how little a primarch would need to remove a battle sister.
I am not sure you have read the previous pages of this thread, let alone its predecessor: "so Sisters of Battle= Space Marine ", by the same author. Both put together have over 23 pages of insanity and occasional interesting stuff.
Anyway, someone pointed out that we have some examples of humans or Astartes killing, wounding, defeating or nearly killing Primarchs. Luther and Kor Phaeron are humans and defeated Primarch, Eugen Temba nearly killed Horus, someone driving a Warhound against Lorgar, Guilliman nearly getting defeated by a squad of marines, Fulgrim wounded by a sniper, a Vindicare (a human sniper) sent to kill Horus, assassins sent to kill Curze by people who know a lot about what Primarchs can do,.... the list is long.
Then someone said that this could apply to Sisters of Battle (which are humans) and things went wild. Accusations of sexism and stuff.
Asking your post in a serious matter, nobody has claimed that a Canoness is stronger than a Primarch save the author of the thread, who is a troll or something really close.
Surely you jest. A battle sister, in no circumstances is equal to a primarch. A battle sister would be ripped in thirds by a naked primarch before she could pull the trigger. Even if the primarch was hit, he might get slightly singed.
Wait... why is he naked?
It was to illustrate just how little a primarch would need to remove a battle sister.
I am not sure you have read the previous pages of this thread, let alone its predecessor: "so Sisters of Battle= Space Marine ", by the same author. Both put together have over 23 pages of insanity and occasional interesting stuff.
Anyway, someone pointed out that we have some examples of humans or Astartes killing, wounding, defeating or nearly killing Primarchs. Luther and Kor Phaeron are humans and defeated Primarch, Eugen Temba nearly killed Horus, someone driving a Warhound against Lorgar, Guilliman nearly getting defeated by a squad of marines, Fulgrim wounded by a sniper, a Vindicare (a human sniper) sent to kill Horus, assassins sent to kill Curze by people who know a lot about what Primarchs can do,.... the list is long.
Then someone said that this could apply to Sisters of Battle (which are humans) and things went wild. Accusations of sexism and stuff.
Asking your post in a serious matter, nobody has claimed that a Canoness is stronger than a Primarch save the author of the thread, who is a troll or something really close.
you just said a human could beat a primarch, using the assassin example, stop lying
Surely you jest. A battle sister, in no circumstances is equal to a primarch. A battle sister would be ripped in thirds by a naked primarch before she could pull the trigger. Even if the primarch was hit, he might get slightly singed.
Wait... why is he naked?
It was to illustrate just how little a primarch would need to remove a battle sister.
I am not sure you have read the previous pages of this thread, let alone its predecessor: "so Sisters of Battle= Space Marine ", by the same author. Both put together have over 23 pages of insanity and occasional interesting stuff.
Anyway, someone pointed out that we have some examples of humans or Astartes killing, wounding, defeating or nearly killing Primarchs. Luther and Kor Phaeron are humans and defeated Primarch, Eugen Temba nearly killed Horus, someone driving a Warhound against Lorgar, Guilliman nearly getting defeated by a squad of marines, Fulgrim wounded by a sniper, a Vindicare (a human sniper) sent to kill Horus, assassins sent to kill Curze by people who know a lot about what Primarchs can do,.... the list is long.
Then someone said that this could apply to Sisters of Battle (which are humans) and things went wild. Accusations of sexism and stuff.
Asking your post in a serious matter, nobody has claimed that a Canoness is stronger than a Primarch save the author of the thread, who is a troll or something really close.
and what about all the examples of primarchs doing miraculous feats
My above edit, because more posts happened, in case it gets lost in the Warp;
Me wrote:EDIT: Wooooah, so much thread happened.
da001: You have my full permission!
LightKing: As others have said (and I), you bring up "Sister". I am not disputing that a Sister of Battle or anything less than a Bio-Titan/Titan/Primarch/Greater Daemon could reasonably fight a Primarch in close combat. This isn't about Primarch vs Sister, it's about Primarch vs melta shot to the face. Is a melta shot female? Am I discriminating against men because obviously melta beams, being female, automatically win? No. I'm saying that someone's face, no matter how super-enhanced they are, will melt when shot with a weapon that reduces tanks to slag.
EDIT: Apparently equipment makes no difference, so if an Eldar Phantom Titan stepped on a Primarch and killed him, then therefore all Eldar can beat Primarchs in melee. Yup. Or if a Tau fleet destroyed a planet a Primarch was on and killed him, that therefore all Tau can beat Angron in close combat.
Frozen Ocean wrote: My above edit, because more posts happened, in case it gets lost in the Warp;
Me wrote:EDIT: Wooooah, so much thread happened.
da001: You have my full permission!
LightKing: As others have said (and I), you bring up "Sister". I am not disputing that a Sister of Battle or anything less than a Bio-Titan/Titan/Primarch/Greater Daemon could reasonably fight a Primarch in close combat. This isn't about Primarch vs Sister, it's about Primarch vs melta shot to the face. Is a melta shot female? Am I discriminating against men because obviously melta beams, being female, automatically win? No. I'm saying that someone's face, no matter how super-enhanced they are, will melt when shot with a weapon that reduces tanks to slag.
then i apologize then, last night like i said i get heated in these debates
i still think alot of people in this debate bring in their own persona ideology (PC) when judging fiction... and they shouldn't...
remember the days of the female space marine debates....i feel like some people just won't admit a primarch is stronger then a female character
LightKing wrote: most 40k fans would agree that a primarch destroys a sister, yet people like you and da001 say a sister would destroy a primarch
when YOU should know their power levels.....
Sorry, I am going to quote again my conversation with LightKing on this matter. It is from the other thread. Sorry, cannot help it.
Magnus would still beat a sister 1 on 1 in combat because, well he's a primarch and vastly stronger then her
No way! Seriously?? LOL A mere primarch defeating a Sister of Battle in close combat!?! Preposterous! I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch??
No way a sissy like Magnus could take on a Sister of Battle 1 on 1. At least not in close combat.
No. Way.
You think THAT'S bad? Can you imagine what would happen if Magnus fought a grot? Poor guy would just get curb stomped.
lol are you guys serious? Magnus would destroy a sister
Oh come on. Of course I am super serious. Sisters are trained since birth, have Power Armour and Bolters, and they specialize in killing psykers.
And what is Magnus? A [/b]psyker[b]. No. Chance. He will never make it into close combat. And even if he manages to get there... then what? Try to get through her Power Armour? Hilarious.
Against a grot it would be a similar situation. While Magnus has psy-powers and stuff like that, the sneaky abilities of the grot will allow it to get into close combat... and then it is game over for Magnus totally. And even if he manages to detect the grot, its sheer will-power will protect him against everything a primarch can use.
Guilliaman tanked a shot from a starship and surived floating in space without a helmet
And Sister Macarena killed every single member of the Maximus Pious Chapter of the Space Marines (1000 Astartes in full gear) armed only with a wooden spear, and then used a Warhound Titan to seriously wound a grot. Sure the grot eventually dismembered her, but she wounded it.
She didn't even pilot the Warhound. She just picked up and dropped it on the grot. Like a titan sized nuke.
LightKing wrote: most 40k fans would agree that a primarch destroys a sister, yet people like you and da001 say a sister would destroy a primarch
when YOU should know their power levels.....
Sorry, I am going to quote again my conversation with LightKing on this matter. It is from the other thread. Sorry, cannot help it.
Magnus would still beat a sister 1 on 1 in combat because, well he's a primarch and vastly stronger then her
No way! Seriously?? LOL A mere primarch defeating a Sister of Battle in close combat!?! Preposterous! I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch??
No way a sissy like Magnus could take on a Sister of Battle 1 on 1. At least not in close combat.
No. Way.
You think THAT'S bad? Can you imagine what would happen if Magnus fought a grot? Poor guy would just get curb stomped.
lol are you guys serious? Magnus would destroy a sister
Oh come on. Of course I am super serious. Sisters are trained since birth, have Power Armour and Bolters, and they specialize in killing psykers.
And what is Magnus? A [/b]psyker[b]. No. Chance. He will never make it into close combat. And even if he manages to get there... then what? Try to get through her Power Armour? Hilarious.
Against a grot it would be a similar situation. While Magnus has psy-powers and stuff like that, the sneaky abilities of the grot will allow it to get into close combat... and then it is game over for Magnus totally. And even if he manages to detect the grot, its sheer will-power will protect him against everything a primarch can use.
Guilliaman tanked a shot from a starship and surived floating in space without a helmet
And Sister Macarena killed every single member of the Maximus Pious Chapter of the Space Marines (1000 Astartes in full gear) armed only with a wooden spear, and then used a Warhound Titan to seriously wound a grot. Sure the grot eventually dismembered her, but she wounded it.
She didn't even pilot the Warhound. She just picked up and dropped it on the grot. Like a titan sized nuke.
so you claim those primarch miraculous feets are false, so i can claim the feats of humans beating primarchs as false
LightKing wrote: most 40k fans would agree that a primarch destroys a sister, yet people like you and da001 say a sister would destroy a primarch
when YOU should know their power levels.....
Sorry, I am going to quote again my conversation with LightKing on this matter. It is from the other thread. Sorry, cannot help it.
Magnus would still beat a sister 1 on 1 in combat because, well he's a primarch and vastly stronger then her
No way! Seriously?? LOL A mere primarch defeating a Sister of Battle in close combat!?! Preposterous! I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch??
No way a sissy like Magnus could take on a Sister of Battle 1 on 1. At least not in close combat.
No. Way.
You think THAT'S bad? Can you imagine what would happen if Magnus fought a grot? Poor guy would just get curb stomped.
lol are you guys serious? Magnus would destroy a sister
Oh come on. Of course I am super serious. Sisters are trained since birth, have Power Armour and Bolters, and they specialize in killing psykers.
And what is Magnus? A [/b]psyker[b]. No. Chance. He will never make it into close combat. And even if he manages to get there... then what? Try to get through her Power Armour? Hilarious.
Against a grot it would be a similar situation. While Magnus has psy-powers and stuff like that, the sneaky abilities of the grot will allow it to get into close combat... and then it is game over for Magnus totally. And even if he manages to detect the grot, its sheer will-power will protect him against everything a primarch can use.
Guilliaman tanked a shot from a starship and surived floating in space without a helmet
And Sister Macarena killed every single member of the Maximus Pious Chapter of the Space Marines (1000 Astartes in full gear) armed only with a wooden spear, and then used a Warhound Titan to seriously wound a grot. Sure the grot eventually dismembered her, but she wounded it.
She didn't even pilot the Warhound. She just picked up and dropped it on the grot. Like a titan sized nuke.
I love how the last line is always my quip about the Titan - nuke
Surely you jest. A battle sister, in no circumstances is equal to a primarch. A battle sister would be ripped in thirds by a naked primarch before she could pull the trigger. Even if the primarch was hit, he might get slightly singed.
Wait... why is he naked?
It was to illustrate just how little a primarch would need to remove a battle sister.
I am not sure you have read the previous pages of this thread, let alone its predecessor: "so Sisters of Battle= Space Marine ", by the same author. Both put together have over 23 pages of insanity and occasional interesting stuff.
Anyway, someone pointed out that we have some examples of humans or Astartes killing, wounding, defeating or nearly killing Primarchs. Luther and Kor Phaeron are humans and defeated Primarch, Eugen Temba nearly killed Horus, someone driving a Warhound against Lorgar, Guilliman nearly getting defeated by a squad of marines, Fulgrim wounded by a sniper, a Vindicare (a human sniper) sent to kill Horus, assassins sent to kill Curze by people who know a lot about what Primarchs can do,.... the list is long.
Then someone said that this could apply to Sisters of Battle (which are humans) and things went wild. Accusations of sexism and stuff.
Asking your post in a serious matter, nobody has claimed that a Canoness is stronger than a Primarch save the author of the thread, who is a troll or something really close.
From the first page alone. Even saying they are remotely equal is grievously inaccurate.
I think that Sister = Primarch in a BATTLE. As in, give both equipment, (including guns), GO!
I responded by asserting that anyone who can land a headshot with a meltagun will kill a primarch in a single blow, just like they would kill anyone else. Firepower is, after all, the great equalizer. It doesn't matter how tough you are when you're being vaporized.
Nevertheless, primarch stories vary immensely so getting an accurate gage is difficult.
Frozen Ocean wrote: The fact that you "feel" this when nobody has stated it is worrying.
An Eldar Banshee can kill a Space Marine. A Space Marine can kill a female Guardsman. There is no gender A > gender B.
i understand that, but when it comes to Primarchs, they are vastly superior to any human man or woman....
Nobody has said otherwise. This entire thread has mostly been people saying exactly this, with you mostly ignoring it. As Melissia said in the second post, technology is a great equaliser. So an unarmed Space Marine vs a Tau; except the Tau is in a Riptide. Does this mean that all Tau can beat Space Marines effortlessly in close combat? No.
Frozen Ocean wrote: The fact that you "feel" this when nobody has stated it is worrying.
An Eldar Banshee can kill a Space Marine. A Space Marine can kill a female Guardsman. There is no gender A > gender B.
i understand that, but when it comes to Primarchs, they are vastly superior to any human man or woman....
Nobody has said otherwise. This entire thread has mostly been people saying exactly this, with you mostly ignoring it. As Melissia said in the second post, technology is a great equaliser. So an unarmed Space Marine vs a Tau; except the Tau is in a Riptide. Does this mean that all Tau can beat Space Marines effortlessly in close combat? No.
but when i proposed this thread, i meant close combat h2h/melee............ i reinforced that a few times in my 2 threads.....
and the technology argument is a good one, still a primarch would still have distinictive advantages of speed, strength, reflexes...... in a gun fight
Frozen Ocean wrote: The fact that you "feel" this when nobody has stated it is worrying.
An Eldar Banshee can kill a Space Marine. A Space Marine can kill a female Guardsman. There is no gender A > gender B.
i understand that, but when it comes to Primarchs, they are vastly superior to any human man or woman....
Nobody has said otherwise. This entire thread has mostly been people saying exactly this, with you mostly ignoring it. As Melissia said in the second post, technology is a great equaliser. So an unarmed Space Marine vs a Tau; except the Tau is in a Riptide. Does this mean that all Tau can beat Space Marines effortlessly in close combat? No.
but when i proposed this thread, i meant close combat h2h/melee............ i reinforced that a few times in my 2 threads.....
and the technology argument is a good one, still a primarch would still have distinictive advantages of speed, strength, reflexes...... in a gun fight
Which is why this thread is disingenuous. Because when Melissia sent you the PM that triggered this thread, she was not talking about close combat h2h/melee.
Frozen Ocean wrote: The fact that you "feel" this when nobody has stated it is worrying.
An Eldar Banshee can kill a Space Marine. A Space Marine can kill a female Guardsman. There is no gender A > gender B.
i understand that, but when it comes to Primarchs, they are vastly superior to any human man or woman....
Nobody has said otherwise. This entire thread has mostly been people saying exactly this, with you mostly ignoring it. As Melissia said in the second post, technology is a great equaliser. So an unarmed Space Marine vs a Tau; except the Tau is in a Riptide. Does this mean that all Tau can beat Space Marines effortlessly in close combat? No.
but when i proposed this thread, i meant close combat h2h/melee............ i reinforced that a few times in my 2 threads.....
and the technology argument is a good one, still a primarch would still have distinictive advantages of speed, strength, reflexes...... in a gun fight
Which is why this thread is disingenuous. Because when Melissia sent you the PM that triggered this thread, she was not talking about close combat h2h/melee.
then it was miscommunication then...i apologize on my behalve
LightKing wrote: does anyone think Frozen Ocean says these things, because he hates the primarchs because they are all male...... but if they were all female, he would be singing a different tone
its hard for him to accept that the primarchs could beat the battle sisters cause it goes against his PC ideology
It is the opposite of PC to support one gender against another.
But yes, IMO a primarch could crush a sister as an afterthought.
If Vulkan (who is immortal and will just return anyway) survived a teraton (multi) hit he could do a pelvic thrust 30 yards away from a sister and rip her to shreds with the shockeave created.
So I shouldn't invite Vulkan to the party at Slaanesh' palace? Good to know.
And again, meltagun's aren't going to do anything to a Primarch. Plasma cannons from a Titan are OOM stronger last I checked.
Frozen Ocean wrote: The fact that you "feel" this when nobody has stated it is worrying.
An Eldar Banshee can kill a Space Marine. A Space Marine can kill a female Guardsman. There is no gender A > gender B.
i understand that, but when it comes to Primarchs, they are vastly superior to any human man or woman....
Nobody has said otherwise. This entire thread has mostly been people saying exactly this, with you mostly ignoring it. As Melissia said in the second post, technology is a great equaliser. So an unarmed Space Marine vs a Tau; except the Tau is in a Riptide. Does this mean that all Tau can beat Space Marines effortlessly in close combat? No.
Which is why this thread is disingenuous. Because when Melissia sent you the PM that triggered this thread, she was not talking about close combat h2h/melee.
Frozen Ocean wrote: The fact that you "feel" this when nobody has stated it is worrying.
An Eldar Banshee can kill a Space Marine. A Space Marine can kill a female Guardsman. There is no gender A > gender B.
i understand that, but when it comes to Primarchs, they are vastly superior to any human man or woman....
Nobody has said otherwise. This entire thread has mostly been people saying exactly this, with you mostly ignoring it. As Melissia said in the second post, technology is a great equaliser. So an unarmed Space Marine vs a Tau; except the Tau is in a Riptide. Does this mean that all Tau can beat Space Marines effortlessly in close combat? No.
I can only assume he's trolling at this point.
what, i actually was on your side, and you call me troll...even though i apologize.... and even then people are still attacking me
We should ask Forge World to give us a free Warhound and for them to make a Canoness model that is nice, and then we could make it happen. I think they'd do it. For science?
Another day, another conflagration on the background forum from one of LightKing's painful threads.
Melissia wrote: LightKing PMed me with this bizarre, out of the blue assertion (with no provocation form my part) about how Primarchs can't be beaten by anyone.
I responded by asserting that anyone who can land a headshot with a meltagun will kill a primarch in a single blow, just like they would kill anyone else. Firepower is, after all, the great equalizer. It doesn't matter how tough you are when you're being vaporized.
Except Vulcan, he don't care. Lorgar tanked a plasma blaster with his face. Fulgrim had his brain ventilated by a bullet.
But yes, except for Vulcan, having your head vaporized is even lethal for a Primarch.
Vulcan doesn't count because spoilers. Lorgar didn't "tank a plasma blaster with his face" so much as he was in the area of effect and managed to not die... and had to be medivacced after by Angron.
If he HAD taken the blast directly to the face, he wouldn't continue to exist.
Plasma blaster is a Titan-killing weapon. To add to previous examples, Angron survived being buried under thousands of tons of rock and bench lifted a warhound, Guilliman survived his bridge evaporating around him, Corax tanked concentrated fire from multiple squads of Iron Warriors, it goes on and on. Oh, and Melissia, ever manipulating the text to suit your purpose, he wasn't in the "area of effect", he was the target at point-blank range.
The only way this hypothetical sister would succeed is if the Primarch was tied down for her to execute. That, or there were like 100+ sisters all with meltaguns.
Sorry, sorry! I can't help myself, his threads are so entertaining. They inevitably turn into a maelstrom of stupid as he sucks half of the forum into his event horizon.
Melissia wrote: Vulcan doesn't count because spoilers. Lorgar didn't "tank a plasma blaster with his face" so much as he was in the area of effect and managed to not die... and had to be medivacced after by Angron.
If he HAD taken the blast directly to the face, he wouldn't continue to exist.
Firepower is awesome like that.
Yeah Vulkan just took half a teraton of force that killed half of everything on the planet he was on. And the round made contact with him. And he walked it off.
The KT impact that killed the dinosaurs and covered the planet in ash for 3 years was 5-10 teratons.
Melta ain't doin gak to Vulkan.
Melissia wrote: Vulcan doesn't count because spoilers. Lorgar didn't "tank a plasma blaster with his face" so much as he was in the area of effect and managed to not die... and had to be medivacced after by Angron.
If he HAD taken the blast directly to the face, he wouldn't continue to exist.
Firepower is awesome like that.
Melta ain't doin gak to Vulkan.
As reflected perfectly in his rules.
Oh by the way Melissia that argument is tragic. Just sayin...
Melissia wrote: Vulcan doesn't count because spoilers. Lorgar didn't "tank a plasma blaster with his face" so much as he was in the area of effect and managed to not die... and had to be medivacced after by Angron.
If he HAD taken the blast directly to the face, he wouldn't continue to exist.
Firepower is awesome like that.
Melta ain't doin gak to Vulkan.
As reflected perfectly in his rules.
Oh by the way Melissia that argument is tragic. Just sayin...
I'm just stopping by to check on the thread every hour. Got a bag of miniature tootsie rolls to my right.
Melissia wrote: Vulcan doesn't count because spoilers. Lorgar didn't "tank a plasma blaster with his face" so much as he was in the area of effect and managed to not die... and had to be medivacced after by Angron.
If he HAD taken the blast directly to the face, he wouldn't continue to exist.
Firepower is awesome like that.
You didn't read the book.
The Plasma Blast Gun was fired directly at him.
Please stop this.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, holy gak, this thread grew three sizes in the time it took me to watch a movie.
To be fair, it's not like a Plasma Blastgun is the ultimate murderating thing there is. A Chapter Master with the right equipment could survive a hit from one.
What does it matter if Primarchs can be killed by ordinary weapons or not? They're mostly dead anyway.
TheCustomLime wrote: To be fair, it's not like a Plasma Blastgun is the ultimate murderating thing there is. A Chapter Master with the right equipment could survive a hit from one.
IIRC a battle sister could survive it with the right act of faith
Right. The thing you have to remember about 40k is that setting is built around a wargame and, as such, there are ways for people to survive even the deadliest weapons. Sisters can tough it out using their faith, Guard commanders have special energy fields that'll save them if they are lucky, Daemons have their... daemon energy and Primarchs are gut it out. It's not like them being able to survive such things makes them any more special than other high ranking commanders. I don't get why these examples are constantly cited as proof of their godhood.
TheCustomLime wrote: To be fair, it's not like a Plasma Blastgun is the ultimate murderating thing there is. A Chapter Master with the right equipment could survive a hit from one.
What does it matter if Primarchs can be killed by ordinary weapons or not? They're mostly dead anyway.
Aren't 10 out of 18 of them still alive incase GW decides to advance the "plot"?
D'oh, forgot about how the traitor primarchs mostly lived. Well, my point still stands. What does it matter whether Primarchs can survive conventional weaponry or not? It doesn't make them any more special than say a Wraithknight or a Carnifex.
``
Aren't 10 out of 18 of them still alive incase GW decides to advance the "plot"?
10 out of 20. There are also the two Unknown Primarchs who may or may not still be alive.
Even the Primarchs that are KIA might come back with that funky Sanguinator guy with the Blood Angels. The only ones we know are dead as the dodo are Horus, Manus, and Curze.
TheCustomLime wrote: Right. The thing you have to remember about 40k is that setting is built around a wargame and, as such, there are ways for people to survive even the deadliest weapons. Sisters can tough it out using their faith, Guard commanders have special energy fields that'll save them if they are lucky, Daemons have their... daemon energy and Primarchs are gut it out. It's not like them being able to survive such things makes them any more special than other high ranking commanders. I don't get why these examples are constantly cited as proof of their godhood.
Vulkan has 6 wounds, T7, the Blastgun would hit him at S:5, and he has a 3++.
It's not that he would survive it so much as be utterly unaffected by it.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: I have never heard anywhere that women are supposed to be more technical/skilled.
Actually, they do beat men in hand-eye coordination like shooting a gun when properly trained. Adrenaline... Men produce more of it by nature - making them better hand-to-hand fighters - but it makes your hands shake when you get a large enough dose of it, like being in mortal combat. That's probaby why standard Space Marines still have only a BS4 just like IG veterans and SoB - all their targeters and autosenses can't make up for the massive doses of adrenaline they get.
So? A Wraithknight, Leman Russ battletank (Most of the time), a Chapter Master with the Shield Eternal, every AV14 vehicle (Most of the time) and other high T and high W share that distinction. Just because something is on a titan doesn't mean it's the most godly powerful weapon ever.
``
Aren't 10 out of 18 of them still alive incase GW decides to advance the "plot"?
10 out of 20. There are also the two Unknown Primarchs who may or may not still be alive.
Even the Primarchs that are KIA might come back with that funky Sanguinator guy with the Blood Angels. The only ones we know are dead as the dodo are Horus, Manus, and Curze.
IIRC...
Aren't Rogal Dorn's skeletal fists being held in a shrine? Or this this no longer canon?
TheCustomLime wrote: So? A Wraithknight, Leman Russ battletank (Most of the time), a Chapter Master with the Shield Eternal, every AV14 vehicle (Most of the time) and other high T and high W share that distinction. Just because something is on a titan doesn't mean it's the most godly powerful weapon ever.
Vulkan is dramatically tougher than all of these though. And Vulkan is far less likely to receive damage from a Plasma Blastgun than any of these. And he has more wounds to top it off.
Hey, that's kinda cool. But Vanquisher, Battle, Demolisher and Las cannons wound him on a 3+ or better like other High T models. My point is that the ability to survive being hit by powerful weapons and walking away isn't all that special. The setting is littered with such examples.
TheCustomLime wrote: Hey, that's kinda cool. But Vanquisher, Battle, Demolisher and Las cannons wound him on a 3+ or better like other High T models. My point is that the ability to survive being hit by powerful weapons and walking away isn't all that special. The setting is littered with such examples.
The ability to be UNWOUNDED like 75% of the time while possessing 6 wounds and a rerollable 4+ IWND might be.
``
Aren't 10 out of 18 of them still alive incase GW decides to advance the "plot"?
10 out of 20. There are also the two Unknown Primarchs who may or may not still be alive.
Even the Primarchs that are KIA might come back with that funky Sanguinator guy with the Blood Angels. The only ones we know are dead as the dodo are Horus, Manus, and Curze.
IIRC...
Aren't Rogal Dorn's skeletal fists being held in a shrine? Or this this no longer canon?
Used to be his skeleton, got retconned to a single fist.
Least I introduced the concept of a Titan-Nuke. Did I mention it's being pile-drived into it's target?
You went up by half a tier for that in my scale.
so im not cool?
Considering you were the one who started this whole debacle and took forever to actually listen to what people had to say I have to say...no, not even close.
Least I introduced the concept of a Titan-Nuke. Did I mention it's being pile-drived into it's target?
You went up by half a tier for that in my scale.
so im not cool?
Considering you were the one who started this whole debacle and took forever to actually listen to what people had to say I have to say...no, not even close.
Jesus, can we all be nice?
There's a reason no one responded.
It is pretty obvious that Primarchs are stronger than Canonesses, but there is a huge psychological dimension to combat, and a Cannoness would be empowered by their connection to the Emporer.
It could go either way, depending on luck and circumstances.
). Each game can be a recount, a competitive game, or your own narrative. A death on the board game doesn't necessarily mean death. Retreat, incapacitation, recovering a valuable plasma gun that overheated... what your mind creates is what has happened for you. The other individual might interpret differently but so be it. If you don't want a melta to kill a primarch, then think such a way but always remember there are others out there that prefer the notion that a primarch is not as godly as that and would be felled by such a powerful shot.
in the Grey Knight codex they used in place of glue).
