Mike1975 wrote: They have plans for tournament play, just not finalized rules for them yet. Having a solid FAQ on what is wrong is a first step in that process.
Well, so far we have at least one thing that is wrong and actually NEEDS an FAQ, the part about friendly models in the same squad not blocking LOS.
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Mike1975 wrote: So.....center of attacker to any part of target? Gives you a cone and eliminates many of the flower or lamppost problems...
Yeah good point, "center to any" does make sense from a purely FAQ perspective.
I'm sticking to small changes, I think I'll get further that way.
Manchu wrote: Well, it does not seem too far off from Infinity given the above, at least in terms of cover. The again, as JudgeDoug mentioned:
judgedoug wrote: That Infinity example is the exact problem I have with any "portion of a model" - whether it's "about a quarter" or "25%" or whatever - and immediately makes me never want to play Infinity, considering how dynamic their models are. It's the laziest of game design.
Again that is why with Infinity 3rd Edition they have a template that uses a Silhouette Template, which also shows what is considered 'center'. It eliminates the issue with dynamic poses, miniature modifications, and doesn't leave 'center' up to subjective reasoning.
I realize that the LOS debate is still raging strong, but has anyone looked at the measurement rule?
Page 10, Measuring Distances:
"Although Robotech (r) RPG Tactics (TM) is a three-dimensional game of mecha combat, all the measurement done in the game is performed only on horizontal distances, ignoring elevation, because most of the mecha in Robotech (r) are ground based units (Destroids, Battlepods, etc.) and even the aerial mecha (Valkyries, Gnerls, etc.) tend to fly nap of the earth to take advantage of cover and stay out of the line of fire. Note that this applies to all measurement in the game, even though you will often be drawing Line of Sight on the diagonal."
Um. If I have the right of this, If say, a battlepod is on a rooftop three stories up and a valkyrie is at ground level, and the valk is shooting at the pod I don't measure diagonally from the base of the valk to the base of the battlepod, but rather from the base of the valk to the edge of the building, then from the edge of the rooftop of the building to the base of the battlepod, and that is my total distance.
Please someone tell me that I am just reading this wrong, please :/
Negative. It flat out says you ignore elevation. So you measure from the Valk to the base of the building, and then add a little more if the Battlepod is a bit back, assuming the pod isn't far enough back to be out of LoS.
Good luck checking LoS 2 feet into a table without disturbing anything else and getting a good 'from it's eyes view'.
Um. If I have the right of this, If say, a battlepod is on a rooftop three stories up and a valkyrie is at ground level, and the valk is shooting at the pod I don't measure diagonally from the base of the valk to the base of the battlepod, but rather from the base of the valk to the edge of the building, then from the edge of the rooftop of the building to the base of the battlepod, and that is my total distance.
Please someone tell me that I am just reading this wrong, please :/
I feel like this is pretty common. Isn't WMH always measured on a single plane regardless of elevation? (I've only played a few games so could be mistaken)
Mike, I have never seen a game suggest you measure over the mini. Most are actually pretty strict about measuring from the base.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, guys, I think you are missing the ignoring the elevation part. So if a mini is 12" up in the air, but you are only 4 inches horizontally away from it, you ignore the 12" straight up. At least that is how I am reading this.
Mike, I have never seen a game suggest you measure over the mini. Most are actually pretty strict about measuring from the base.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, guys, I think you are missing the ignoring the elevation part. So if a mini is 12" up in the air, but you are only 4 inches horizontally away from it, you ignore the 12" straight up. At least that is how I am reading this.
Tactics you measure base to base also but on the horizontal plane only. So you can have a Veritech flying 6 inches up but the range is measured over the table. If you have a bunch of terrain, trying to measure up and down and through trees and buildings is a PITA when you can hold the tape measure above the terrain and look straight down to the base and see what the range is.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I thought WTH why are they not doing this mini to mini so that a Veritech inthe sky is slightly further away BUT in the end I figured that's not a big deal since it also makes things much easier to measure distance when you have tight terrain like a bunch of trees that you could knock over trying to measure through. We always did the same in 40k. Like when you have a mini hiding on the other side of a second story window. You had to measure to the front of the building but if he was inside a ways you had to measure from over the building.
It is a big deal. And nowhere does it say you measure over the mini. Measuring above minis would lead to all kinds of fudging distance. TFG would have a field day with it.
How did no one playtesting catch the ignoring elevation distance issue?
I believe Malifaux ignores elevation as well. You measure on the horizontal, and it recognizes that sufficiently tall terrain might interfere, but it also uses the cylinder method.
Now, this is from my recollection of the game from its 1.5 edition a good year back, but that's basically how it worked at the time. You established a 'height' for terrain, tall enough figures (which also had a set height on their cards, ignoring the figure itself) could see/reach/shoot over it, and be shot over it by others, though with cover, which was pretty damned good in that game.
Mike, I have never seen a game suggest you measure over the mini. Most are actually pretty strict about measuring from the base.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, guys, I think you are missing the ignoring the elevation part. So if a mini is 12" up in the air, but you are only 4 inches horizontally away from it, you ignore the 12" straight up. At least that is how I am reading this.
So if a mini is 12" up in the air, but otherwise in base to base I can punch him? Right?
I am new to wargaming in general, and have never physically played a game, but this LOS argument is fascinating. I personally think their center of mecha to center of mecha is dumb as most here seem to feel too.
From a newb's perspective though, why isn't LOS just figured out from the optics of the mecha? So like, the head of a battaloid to any part of a pod? If it's more than 50% covered, there's a penalty. If you remember from the cartoon, missiles can fly around buildings, so if you can "lock on" even if in 50% cover or less (i'd say less than 50% would be a "sorry, can't lock on") then missiles can most likely hit (with a good roll of course). If you're using lasers or gun pods, etc. Then it would diminish your gunnery skill more. In my mind, it makes more sense to go with the "Can my Destroid SEE the enemy? If 100%, then yay! If lees, but not less than 50%, then roll for lock on and take a penalty".
just my 2 cents.. I know it's most likely laughable. But reading the pages on this, I felt compelled to speak up.
Your opinion is not at all laughable. That's a very intuitive approach and falls into the "true line of sight" family. I would argue against your idea that 50% obstruction blocks LOS, especially considering the very sophisticated targeting computers you mentioned. It seems to me that ideally, LOS should be established by seeing any part of a target (or the volume in which a target could be in a certain period of time) and obstruction should be a matter of cover. It makes sense to me that I can try to shoot at anything that I can see, even if it is a tough shot. This is sorta kinda how the published rule works and certainly how the current version of the FAQ suggestion works.
I think flying units are impervious to melee attacks or something. I vaguely recall it being an attribute of flying.
Flying (special rule) mentions nothing about immunity to melee attacks. You have to be base to base to melee someone though. But if you ignore elevation are you base to base if they are on the edge of a building rooftop and you are touching the building.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also Mike the rules state that you measure distance between mecha from the two closest points between their bases, not hovering over them.
I think flying units are impervious to melee attacks or something. I vaguely recall it being an attribute of flying.
Flying (special rule) mentions nothing about immunity to melee attacks. You have to be base to base to melee someone though. But if you ignore elevation are you base to base if they are on the edge of a building rooftop and you are touching the building.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also Mike the rules state that you measure distance between mecha from the two closest points between their bases, not hovering over them.
This is the more common problem to sort out:
If the model is on top of a building and another at the base: how can you engage in melee?
Assume he jump-jets up and applies a flying hammer-blow?
(Forge the Narrative! whoops! wrong system).
On the various 25% rules for targeting, unless a template or some grid on the stand is developed this will be a system with inherent variation.
If I look on an angle and squint just so, I can get what I want. Trying to safeguard against WAAC players is a fools game but I agree on not making it easy for them.
For the base to base measurement we may have to create a telescoping pointer fixture to measure true base to base at height...
"Parallax error" will be fun with the horizontal distance base to base (bad enough figuring out deviation dice results in 40k).
vitae_drinker wrote: Are your bases touching? If no, then you aren't base to base.
Gah!
Now we are into the "fighting across a wall" debate that was beaten to death in 40k discussions.
I suppose since this is largely a "shooting" game, it may not matter much but then there would be many instances where it would have been nice to get a melee attack in but cannot.
There is a car/picket fence/tree/garbage can/mailbox/outhouse on the ground between you and your target, I then have to go around.
That's why most games now include something along the lines of "ignore linear terrain" (walls, etc) which would not essentially interfere in a fight. Now, if you're on opposite ends of a car, I'm not sure how you can hit somebody with a combat knife, so i think the restriction for not being in hand to hand is reasonable. Picket fence? No restriction. Mailbox? No restriction. Outhouse? Eh, how big of an outhouse?
The rule says "base to base", right? Are your bases touching? Then that rule is not satisfied. No hand to hand.
The rules also state that you only measure on the horizontal and ignore elevation. In the building example if you remove the height from the building the models are base to base.
Are the bases actually touching? No? Then the rule isn't satisfied. Now this argument is getting to the point of ridiculous, GW, rules-lawyering, and based on as much logic. You can uae that argument to state that if my mech was 0.5" to infinity closer they would be base to base, and therefore I can do melee.
You ignore height for measuring distance, that's it.
Imagine if you were fighting on a two dimensional depiction of a city from birds eye view. Because the measurement rules (of which checking base to base contact would fall under) state you ignore elevation, you are essentially doing just that.
It may sound absurb, but the only absurdity here is the way the rule is written. It is made even worse and more bizzare by having LOS acknowlege the diagonal as a thing while measuring distance does not.
Swabby wrote: Imagine if you were fighting on a two dimensional depiction of a city from birds eye view. Because the measurement rules (of which checking base to base contact would fall under) state you ignore elevation, you are essentially doing just that.
It may sound absurb, but the only absurdity here is the way the rule is written. It is made even worse and more bizarre by having LOS acknowlege the diagonal as a thing while measuring distance does not.
You are over thinking it at this point and looking for other issues. The way it is written is actually fine. You only measure distances when dealing with range. If two models are base to base touching, there is no need to measure anything because there isn't a range. You are already in hand to hand combat range. Your range at base to base is 0 if you were using ranged weapons to continue fighting as well. There is absolutely no reason to measure. And no removing elevation doesn't make them base to base contact because they are physically not touching at all.
Removing elevation also doesn't simply mean remove elevation. You measure horizontally when measuring distances. You take the ruler horizontally above Model A and have it it go in a straight line to Model B (on building) from above both models horizontally. In other words you don't measure from the top of the building to the base diagonally, even though LOS is drawn that way (it states this in the rules). Measuring horizontally does not magically make bases of two models touch.
Merijeek wrote: So, one mecha has its base slightly elevated because it's on top of a car that doesn't even make it up to the thing's ankle.
It is now immune to melee?
I haven't had a chance to really look at terrain and see if there are situations this would arise. If you could move on top of a car or terrain that was slightly elevated, then yes you couldn't use hand to hand because base to base contact isn't happening. Most games are this way, it is the pre-qualifier to hand to hand or melee combat, unless you have a ranged melee. If the intent was to get to use hand to hand, then you wouldn't move to the top of the car. If the intent was to get into melee combat with the model on the car, then you would move on top of the car to initiate base to base contact. I don't see an issue with the base to base contact at all currently.
Swabby wrote: Because the measurement rules (of which checking base to base contact would fall under)
Checking base to base contact does not fall under measurement rules. They are two separate rules sections. Measuring Distances and Hand to Hand combat are not combined sections, they are two different sections.
There is no measurement done for base to base. Why would you ever need to measure if a model is touching a base of another base. It is either touching or not touching. If it is not touching then you measure. It is that simple.
Checking distance between bases is a measurement. It does not explicitly state otherwise and only mentions base to base contact is required to intiate hand to hand.
The measurement rules still apply unless a special rule overides it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To elaborate, checking for a lack of distance is still a type of measurement.
Dark Severance wrote: Measuring horizontally does not magically make bases of two models touch.
Merijeek wrote: So, one mecha has its base slightly elevated because it's on top of a car that doesn't even make it up to the thing's ankle.
It is now immune to melee?
I haven't had a chance to really look at terrain and see if there are situations this would arise. If you could move on top of a car or terrain that was slightly elevated, then yes you couldn't use hand to hand because base to base contact isn't happening. Most games are this way, it is the pre-qualifier to hand to hand or melee combat, unless you have a ranged melee. If the intent was to get to use hand to hand, then you wouldn't move to the top of the car. If the intent was to get into melee combat with the model on the car, then you would move on top of the car to initiate base to base contact. I don't see an issue with the base to base contact at all currently.
That's exactly the point. If I can take a model and put it in a piece of terrain (a wide enough fence, a car, whatever), if there isn't enough room on that piece of terrain for you to fit you model's base, even if it's just a slightly-higher-than-the-thickness-of-your-model's-base high, my model is now literally immune to melee.
Swabby wrote: The measurement rules still apply unless a special rule overides it.
The special rule you are looking for is called "Hand to Hand Combat" but you keep combining it with "Measuring Distances". The section on measuring distances is only defining what measuring distances, dice, re-rolls, etc are for when other sections of the rules call upon. When I have judged in tournaments, it is considered a concept or definition and that is why it is in the "General Concepts & Definitions" section. They aren't actually rules, they are what rules call upon when they state they need to do something done like measuring a distance.
In almost every game I have played, even those that do allow pre-measuring, you state what you will be doing combat wise. If you are firing a ranged weapon, then you would measure to check range. If you are using melee then you would check for the qualifier, in this case models must have base to base contact. If you are doing both you would measure distance for your ranged weapons and you would check the qualifier for melee, again in this case is base to base contact.
If you notice in the "Hand to Hand Combat" section, which is the actual rules for for Hand to Hand Combat... at no point does it say we need to measure a distance. There is no talk about distance. The only qualifier for Hand to Hand is that a model must be in base to base contact. There are no range checks, no measuring in melee, you are at 0 range when you are base to base.
In the "Ranged Combat" section, which is the actual rules for Ranged Combat, it calls to use measuring because you have to determine if someone is in range of your weapon.
The measuring is actually explained fine. You are hung up on the 'ignoring elevation' part and not paying attention to the rest of it. The reason it is done in a horizontal position is so you can simply measure with a ruler and don't require string or risk knocking over terrain or figures. It simplifies measurement like most games that do the same method. Otherwise I'm going to need string to go to the base of the building, then up the building then measure that distance. If you measure diagonally then you are going to have a lot of people bumping terrain, knocking it over in a terrain heavy game. That is how you measure horizontally. You keep getting hung up on the 'ignoring elevation'.
How exactly do you then measure from point A to point B horizontally?
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Merijeek wrote: That's exactly the point. If I can take a model and put it in a piece of terrain (a wide enough fence, a car, whatever), if there isn't enough room on that piece of terrain for you to fit you model's base, even if it's just a slightly-higher-than-the-thickness-of-your-model's-base high, my model is now literally immune to melee.
At this time there is no rules for terrain like a fence or a car. I also have not seen any terrain for a fence or car that could hold a model for this game. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened yet, but chances are this would only come up in a store game and not a tournament. Tournament terrain tends to be fairly straight forward. At the very least if it did then would have a MDC of 1 and can be destroyed and turned to rubble eliminating it. It probably wouldn't even support the model thereby turning it to rubble.
Measuring distance is listed under the game rules section. It is a rule. Checking distance (or for the lack of) between bases is a measurement.
If you read the rules priority section it makes a distinction between the rules in the standard rules section (which measuring distances and hand to hand both reside in) and the rules on the cards for mecha and vehicles. Those on he cards are the special rules I am referring to. Hand to hand is a standard rule and the section on measuring still applies..
Merijeek wrote: That's exactly the point. If I can take a model and put it in a piece of terrain (a wide enough fence, a car, whatever), if there isn't enough room on that piece of terrain for you to fit you model's base, even if it's just a slightly-higher-than-the-thickness-of-your-model's-base high, my model is now literally immune to melee.
At this time there is no rules for terrain like a fence or a car. I also have not seen any terrain for a fence or car that could hold a model for this game. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened yet, but chances are this would only come up in a store game and not a tournament. Tournament terrain tends to be fairly straight forward. At the very least if it did then would have a MDC of 1 and can be destroyed and turned to rubble eliminating it. It probably wouldn't even support the model thereby turning it to rubble.
Do they have rules for terrain like "hills"? If you're at the top of a hill and there is no way for someone to place their model so that it's touching your base you are now immune to melee. Will that help you skip the "there aren't rules for that" and see the actual point?
Manchu wrote: It makes sense to me that I can try to shoot at anything that I can see, even if it is a tough shot.
Then we can start going into the "shooting at things you can't see" which is 99% of modern warfare: suppressive fire. Make an enemy keep their head down (and technically out of line of sight) by a fire element so that an assault element can maneuver to close range and take them out.
Swabby wrote: Measuring distance is listed under the game rules section. It is a rule. Checking distance (or for the lack of) between bases is a measurement.
If you read the rules priority section it makes a distinction between the rules in the standard rules section (which measuring distances and hand to hand both reside in) and the rules on the cards for mecha and vehicles. Those on he cards are the special rules I am referring to. Hand to hand is a standard rule and the section on measuring still applies..
At this point I feel like I'm being trolled. I don't know how to explain sections and sub-sections if you already having this issue. It might be better to ask what miniatures games do you play so I can compare those rulebooks and how those rulebooks are laid out compared to this.
Game Rules (Chapter)
- Learning the Rules (sub-section)
- General Concepts & Definitions (sub-section)
- The Turn (sub-section)
- Ranged Combat (sub-section)
- Hand to Hand Combat (sub-section)
- Terrain (sub-section)
- Special Abilities (sub-section)
- Weapon System Special Abilities (sub-section)
For example under Special Abilities for Hands. Spend a command point and you can climb up a surface. It calls for you to measure horizontally to the vertical surface. If the base was touching it, you wouldn't need to measure (you are already at 0), just spend the command point to climb. For another example Leap, lets you jump terrain but has the stipulation of you can't end touching another mecha's base. Flight as another example can't end its turn with any part of its base on top of another mecha's base.
General Concepts & Definitions are used to explain when parts of the rules call upon something to be done like measuring distance, rolling dice, re-rolles, line of sight, rounding, priority, etc. You call upon it when referenced by the rest of the sections in the rules. At no point does it say anywhere in "Hand to Hand Combat" or call upon someone to measure distance. You would not use measuring distance because at no point does it ask for you to do it or have it done. It simply asks are the models in base to base contact.
Merijeek wrote: Do they have rules for terrain like "hills"? If you're at the top of a hill and there is no way for someone to place their model so that it's touching your base you are now immune to melee. Will that help you skip the "there aren't rules for that" and see the actual point?
Immune would be a strong word, it is saying you can't take damage. Hills would be considered open terrain. On the off chance that a tournament had terrain set up in such a way in your example, which they usually don't, then you could not use hand to hand. It isn't like that gives anyone an advantage or suddenly make them invulnerable (in fact its the opposite), it is the worst location to leave a mecha. They wouldn't need to worry about hand to hand because everyone else would just shoot at ranged. This situation would 99% never come up in a tournament to where it would even matter, because hand to hand at that point wouldn't matter. If you were going to do something like that, it would be better to hover and at least get a -1 Strike penalty.
Swabby wrote: But you do need to know if there is any quantity of distance between the two objects.
No you don't. If the base is touching there is 0 quantity of distance, no quantity of distance. It doesn't exist... touching means 0, no distances, can't get closer than that.
It is a binary observation. either there is no distance and hand to hand can occur or there is some distance and it cannot. You still must observe this distance by making a measurement (with your eyeballs) prior to deciding that the two models can engage in combat.
I understand your subsection take on things but I see nothing in the rulebook that states that any part of the game rules chapter is actually not a standard rule.
This rule is either bad for the reason I am stating or the reason Merijeek is stating. Either way you look at it fhe method of determining eligibility of hth is problematic.
There are also other considerations that get robbed from the measurement rules, like weapon ranges.
For the sake of the discussion I will agree with you. The scenario changes and now if a base is not at the exact elevation as the targets base that model cannot engage in HTH even if they are directly next to each other.
No. So you could theoretically punch a Gnerl. It doesn't matter where the flyer ends up anyway, because you could theoretically march up to it, snuggle up all close in base to base and then punch it.
From what I understand yes overlapping would be the equivalent to touching, but I can't seem to find anything that would let movement stop by overlapping... the closest is base to base contact.
With movement a mecha's base cannont be moved through the space occupied by another mecha's base, obstacle or other impassable object. With Flight you may move over another mecha, it cannot end its movement for the turn with any of its base on top of another mecha's base. With Leap the mecha cannot end its Leap with any part of its base on top of another mecha's base or in deadly terrain, regardless of which point in the movement the Leap takes places.
Yes, I did, but I often send updated ones when something else comes to mind. It included some optional and advanced rules too. Have something more to add?
No. So you could theoretically punch a Gnerl. It doesn't matter where the flyer ends up anyway, because you could theoretically march up to it, snuggle up all close in base to base and then punch it.
Where does it say that Mike? I can't find it in the rulebook.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I don't doubt you, I just can't find it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mike, I think I found what you are talking about.
The aircraft special rule states the following:
"An aircraft is never considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat. A mecha with the aircraft ability can move out of base to base contact with the enemy mecha without having to pay command points to do so."
The hand to hand combat subsection states the following in the engaged in hand to hand combat clause:
"Once a mecha is in base to base contact with an enemy mecha, the two are considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat and cannot attack with weapon systems at all. Additionally, an engaged mecha can't be attacked by other mecha with weapons systems. If either mecha wishes to move out of base to base contact with the other mecha, then its player must pay one command point to do so."
It does not say anywhere that you are required to be engaged in hand to hand combat in order to initiate a hand to hand attack. It is perfectly legal as written to walk up to an aircraft and punch it.
Also wtf is up with the parry rules? They state that you can never dodge a hand to hand attack?! The hell?! You can dodge bullets, but not a punch?
An aircraft is never considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat.
How can you perform a HTH attack and not be engaged?
You can find in any rules sets something like that IF you want to see it and try to make it ambiguous. You actually have to try to find these types of things. Answering this is kinda a waste since it is clear in the rules.
Parry is just the HtH version of the Dodge mechanic. It makes them feel warm and fuzzy having both in the game. If it makes you feel better I think parrying blasts will become available with 2nd gen when you take into account the shields that the Southern Cross infantry, Hovertanks, and Logans have.
Yes, I did, but I often send updated ones when something else comes to mind. It included some optional and advanced rules too. Have something more to add?
*snip*
Aircraft cannot engage or be engaged in HTH.
No, nothing to add. I was just curious if it got delayed with all the discussion. As for aircraft, the only HTH I think should ever affect them would be from using that have flight and are using it that turn (don't recall if it is a mode you have to turn on and off). I think it makes sense both mechanically and in universe for a Q-Rau to be able to sucker punch a ghost but not a gladiator punching a Gnerl no matter how low altitude a strafing run it may be doing.
Mike1975 wrote: An aircraft is never considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat.
How can you perform a HTH attack and not be engaged?
You can find in any rules sets something like that IF you want to see it and try to make it ambiguous. You actually have to try to find these types of things. Answering this is kinda a waste since it is clear in the rules.
Parry is just the HtH version of the Dodge mechanic. It makes them feel warm and fuzzy having both in the game. If it makes you feel better I think parrying blasts will become available with 2nd gen when you take into account the shields that the Southern Cross infantry, Hovertanks, and Logans have.
Funny you should mention them. A hover tank can jump into the air to catch a crashing Logan, but they can't leap into the air take a swing at a flying enemy?
I can only assume that "engaged" has a very clear definition in the rules.
Mike1975 wrote: An aircraft is never considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat.
How can you perform a HTH attack and not be engaged?
.
Being engaged in HtH is different then making HtH attacks. Many wargames make this distinction. There are models in warmachine that can make hand to hand attacks but they can freely move away from the models they are "engaged" with without suffering penalties. Same goes for 40k, vehicles can be attacked in hand to hand, but they are never stuck in assault. There are a ton of exceptions like that. The aircraft special rule is very similar.
There is absolutely nothing in the rules that prevents a hand to hand attack against an aircraft, in fact the rules fully support it. The advantage the aircraft has is that it can move off in its next turn without paying a command point and it can use its weapons as normal. The way the rule reads, technically if a Spartan walked up to and punch a Gnerl, the Spartan would be engaged while the Gnerl would not be due to the aircraft special rule having priority over the standard rule. The Spartan does not have that rule so the standard rule applies. On the Gnerls next turn if flys off as normal unless it actually died due to the punch.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Merijeek:
""Once a mecha is in base to base contact with an enemy mecha, the two are considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat and cannot attack with weapon systems at all. Additionally, an engaged mecha can't be attacked by other mecha with weapons systems. If either mecha wishes to move out of base to base contact with the other mecha, then its player must pay one command point to do so."
That is the meat of the actual rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And Mike, this is clear, and you are reading it wrong.
Swabby wrote: Being engaged in HtH is different then making HtH attacks. Many wargames make this distinction. There are models in warmachine that can make hand to hand attacks but they can freely move away from the models they are "engaged" with without suffering penalties. Same goes for 40k, vehicles can be attacked in hand to hand, but they are never stuck in assault. There are a ton of exceptions like that. The aircraft special rule is very similar.
This isn't Warmachine and this isn't 40K. Being engaged in hand to hand is not different from making hand to hand attacks. There are no distinctions between the two in Robotech Tactics, they are the same thing. This was actually covered in the demo at GenCon. Your combat choices are also covered in Step 3: The Combat Step which then tell you what to reference further.
Swabby wrote: Show me anywhere in the rulebook where it says you or your opponent has to be engaged in hand to hand in order to attack.
When you read rules you can't just pick and choose sections to apply when you want. The rules lay out the steps and procedures fairly straight forward. It isn't my fault you can't seem to comprehend what is written.
Step 3: The Combat Step -> A mecha can attack either at range with its various built-in weapon systems, or in hand to hand combat using its powerful metal fists and feet. In either case, the attack is handled during the Combat Step. However, there are other restrictions on combat. For instance, you must check LOS and range to a target mecha before a ranged attack can be made against it, and a mecha must be in base to base contact with an enemy mecha if it wishes to attack that mecha in hand to hand combat. It is also important to note that it's possible for some mecha from a squadron to engage in hand to hand combat while other mecha from the sqaudron are attacking at range during the same Combat Step. Both Ranged Combat and Hand to Hand Combat are handled in detail in their own rules sections below.
While in the combat step, you choose to attack either ranged or hand to hand. There are qualifiers that need to be met to either attack at ranged or hand to hand. If you pick ranged, you check LOS, measure distance and then proceed to the "Ranged Combat" section.
Choose a Weapon System -> Each mecha has a number of weapon systems that represent its built-in armament. When a mecha attacks, it picks one of these weapon systems with which to attack. A player may also spend Command Points at this time to attack with more than one of that mecha's weapon systems. For each additional Combat Point spent, the mecha may attack with any weapon system once per turn, unless permitted by a special ability such as Rapid Fire.
(Then the rules go on through the rest of Ranged Combat, Choose a Target, Roll to Strike, Attempt to Dodge, Roll with Impact, Taking Damage, Cover, Close Formation, Back Strike, and Crossfire.)
Weapon Systems and Hand to Hand attacks are listed separately on the cards. They aren't mixed. So you can't use command points to suddenly engage in hand to hand combat while shooting ranged. It is one or the other. You could spend Command Points to fire multiple weapon systems though. If you are choosing Hand to Hand then you must be in base to base contact with the mecha you wish to engage, then proceed to the Hand to Hand Combat section.
To make Hand to hand attack, an attacking mecha only needs to move into base to base contact with the enemy mecha that it wishes to attack (during the Movement Step), then roll to Strike as normal.
Engaged in Hand to Hand Combat -> Once a mecha is in base to base contact with an enemy mecha, the two are considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat and cannot attack with weapon systems at all. Additionall, an engaged mecha can't be attacked by other mecha with weapon systems. If either mecha wishes to move out of base to base contact with the other mecha, then its player must pay Once Command Point to do so. Note: A mecha may move, or change facing, as long as it doesn't move out of base to base contact with the mecha that it is engaged with. If a mecha is in base to base contact with multiple enemey mecha, it costs one Command Point fore each enemey mecha in base to base contact with it to be able to move out of hand to hand combat.
(Then the rules go on through the rest of Hand to Hand Comgbat, Choose an Attack, Choose a Target, Roll to Strike, Roll to Parry, Roll with Impact, Taking Damage, Outnumbered in Hand to Hand Combat, Back Strike, and Hand to Hand Attacks (Body Block, Club, Grab, Kick, Jump Kick, Punch, Power Punch, and Stomp)
Remember where during the Combat Step it says there are other restrictions on combat. Aircraft is one of the Special Abilities which has a restriction on combat and specifically states, "An aircraft is never considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat.". To engage in Hand to Hand to have to be in base combat, except Aircraft have a restriction. In Rules specially Magic and WoW TCG, since I've judged more of those tournaments than anything else, Can't > Can and Never > Can. That is how they establish an order or chain of events that happen. When two things are in conflict, one says can and another says can't, can't always trumps the can. There is no leap or shoryuken attack that a mecha can do in the rules.
The reason ranged doesn't use the word 'engaged' and Hand to Hand uses 'engaged' is because 'engaged' means something. It means when you are engaged in hand to hand combat, you cannot attack with weapon systems at all. It is also probably defined as engaged because if expansions or other rules later are to come out, they may at some point call or refer to something being engaged in hand to hand. You either have ranged attacks or you are engaged in hand to hand. There is no, "I"m not engaged in HtH but I will still make HtH attacks". Without that restriction there would be nothing from stopping me from using ranged attacks while in base to base contact, hence why you are engaged in hand to hand.
However there is one thing that is unclear which is Hover. There doesn't appear to be any restriction on Hand to Hand, it just says ranged attacks against it suffer -1 penalty to Strike. It says that terrain is treated as open ground but doesn't specifically have a restriction in it like Aircraft or Flight does. It implies that it isn't actually touching the ground, like flight, but doesn't mention it can't be in base to base contact and doesn't mention that it can never be considered engaged in hand to hand combat. If that is a mistake, it will need to be corrected.
The only requirement in the rules to attack in hand to hand combat is to be in base to base contact with an enemy mecha.
In the spartan/gnerl example the spartan is engaged in in hth while the gnerl is not.
You are totally ignoring the very clear definition of engagement in HtH combat.
Attacking an aircraft in hth is perfectly legal if you are in base to base contact and capable of using a hth attack. The Gnerl however can never attack in hth and must use a weapon system.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and if 40k and warmachine do not count as examples in your book you probably shouldn't drag magic into this.
At first I completely disagreed with Swabby but now I see his point and I don't think it is pedantic. While b2b grants "engaged" status to both models, it is no longer referenced later on in regards to attacks and being "engaged" isn't a prereq for being attacked in close combat but rather being in b2b is. When attacking, the rules on the next page no longer refer to "engaged" models but rather ones in b2b. Aircraft per the exact rules aren't engaged so they can move away from b2b models without paying a CP, can shoot and be shot at, and can't make close combat attacks themselves despite being in b2b. Other models can move up to b2b and swat at the model as they are considered engaged and b2b. Granting "engaged" status is done as a dual state but the later attack rules don't require both models to be engaged. I frankly don't think it is the intent though but each side does have it's merits and this will only be solved by a day 1 faq that clearly clarifies whether aircraft can be hit by close combat attacks.
The interesting caveat to this is that the ground model is still technically "engaged" so can't be shot at. If the intent is that aircraft should be able to be hit in close combat (but not suffer the other penalties of "engaged"), then the rule should say that neither model is engaged which would allow the gladiator trying to uppercut the gnerl to be shot at. As it stands right now, it is a get out of jail free safety card for almost dead models to move into base to base contact with aircraft that have already moved. If the intent is to never allow aircraft to be hit in close combat, the faq should probably clarify that in the definition of aircraft.
Swabby wrote: You are totally ignoring the very clear definition of engagement in HtH combat.
Oh and if 40k and warmachine do not count as examples in your book you probably shouldn't drag magic into this.
No I understand the definition of hand to hand and I also understand the restrictions that are laid out on special abilities. You are ignoring the simple rule of combat that says, "However, there are other restrictions on combat.". Do you understand what that means, how can you ignore that?
I didn't use magic to explain the differences of actual rules, it is used (hopefully so you can understand the differences when certain words are used like "never", "restriction" vs "something that says can". It is used as an example of how Never > Can and how Can't > Can. To be fair they are some concepts that some players never understand, which is usually why there are Judges at tournaments. It is a simple concept but I can understand how it can be confusing. Yes the definition of hand to hand combat is clear, except you are ignoring the restrictions which is specifically states there are and again "Never" trumps "Can". The fact that it says "Never" means that even though it is in base to base contact, you can't engage it in hand to hand.
At this point I'm done because its obvious you don't understand the basic rule concepts or we're being seriously trolled here. So for now I'll just agree to disagree as we are going around in circles and it is just easier to wait to until an actual tournament, official FAQ or a official rules section to cover these things that can be referenced too.
Actually, based solely on your earlier post, I agree with Swabby's interpretation. The rules you quote as written state that to use a HtH attack, you must be in base contact. There is no requirement to be "engaged" to use them in the quoted passages.
To make Hand to hand attack, an attacking mecha only needs to move into base to base contact with the enemy mecha that it wishes to attack (during the Movement Step), then roll to Strike as normal.
"Only" is a pretty clear word as well. Are you in base to base contact? If yes, you may use Hand-to-Hand attacks. It does not state that the target must be engaged in Hand-to-Hand combat for you to use the attacks rather that you ONLY must be in base-to-base contact. That the target doesn't count as engaged is irrelevant in the scope of being able to utilize hand-to-hand attacks as presented.
The aircraft special rule means that none of the conditions of being in hand-to-hand apply to the aircraft model. It can be targeted, it can use other weapon systems and it can move away freely. The model that moved into base contact is considered engaged and thus cannot be targeted nor can it move away if the aircraft doesn't move out of base contact on its own.
However, unless it says somewhere else in the rules that you must be engaged in hand-to-hand combat to be the target of hand-to-hand attacks then as written the aircraft could be attacked in hand-to-hand. That seems ridiculous, even for the subject at hand, so hopefully further down it does say something to that effect and you've just glossed over it.
Yes there are restrictions to combat. You must be in base to base contact to initiate a hth attack. That is the restriction as the rules are written.
The aircraft special rule specifically states that the aircraft can never be considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat and then goes on to state that the aircraft does not have to pay the command point to leave base to base contact.
No where does it say that the attacking mecha cannot attack the model in hth or not end up engaged itself. It only excepts the aircraft from dealing with the penalties involved with breaking engagement.
And since we brought up magic again I will only say this. My 40k and warmachine examples are far more relevant to this conversation than your magic experience.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What they should have done is state that aircraft cannot be attacked with hth abilities if that was there intent. 40k states as much in regards to flyers.
I have to ask though, is punching an aircraft that outlandish in a game based on a show where a spaceship punching another spaceship is a signature move?
Engaged in Hand to Hand Combat – Once a figure is in base to base contact with an enemy figure, the two are considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat and cannot attack with weapons systems at all.
Mike, there is a huge difference in making a HtH attack and being engaged in HtH.
Notice that it doesn't say that you must be engaged to make a HtH attack. It actually states the following:
"To make a hand to hand attack, an attacking mecha only needs to move into base to base contact with the enemy mecha that it wishes to attack (during the movement step, pg 15), then roll to strike as normal."
It says absolutely nothing about requiring one or both models to be considered engaged in hand to hand combat. I am pretty sure buildings are also not considered engaged in hand to hand, but you can beat them down as well.
You are buying into the idea that you cannot attack an aircraft without actually understanding the rules as written. Other games play it this exact way in regards to attacks and engagements, it really is not abnormal.
And the exclusion of "engagement" from the HTH that allows the Spartan to punch out a Gnerl may have been intentional. That way, a mecha can physically attack an objective (like a radar tower or HQ building).
If the intent is to not have the Gnerl punched out, the rules as have been shown here, need to be errated. Either on the flight rules, to preclude it, or on the engagement rules. But unless there's something we haven't yet seen, it seems like a valid rules interpretation, regardless of what was intended.
Mike1975 wrote: You must be in base to base contact to perform a HTH attack.
If you are in base to base contact you ARE considered engaged in HTH combat.
Pretty clear.
Except that aircraft are never engaged...which doesn't affect the other model in base to base at all which remains both engaged and b2b. It may not be the intent but the wording is clear.
Mike, you might want to mention that if they actually do not intend for aircraft to be capable of being hit in HtH that they should probably mention it not in the standard rules, but in the aircraft special rule itself.
warboss wrote: Except that aircraft are never engaged...which doesn't affect the other model in base to base at all which remains both engaged and b2b. It may not be the intent but the wording is clear.
To a very small degree I can understand what you are trying to say... but I still disagree. The roll to strike is summary, when the rest of the hand to hand goes more into hand to hand combat: Choose an Attack, Choose at Target, Roll to Strike, Roll to Parry, Roll with Impact, Taking Damage. You don't just move base to base, then roll to strike and that is it. You read the rest of the way through the rest of the other instructions for completing your hand to hand attack.
It does state "Once a mecha is in base to base contact with an enemy mecha, the two are considered to be engaged in hand to hand combat and cannot attack with weapon systems at all." It implies that when you are base to base, both mecha are engaged in hand to hand combat (not just one). Since an Aircraft can't be engaged in hand to hand combat, that would also mean the other mecha can't be engaged by default (since it requires two models to be engaged). For example the saying old sayings of "It takes two to tango, it takes two to fight, and it takes two to argue" because you can't fight yourself.
Using the reasoning and path you are going along that would also mean that mecha on the ground couldn't shoot at aircraft, because you are still saying they are engaged. It doesn't make sense that you can punch an Aircraft but you then you can't shoot it because if it was engaged in hand to hand, it couldn't use their weapon systems at all.
warboss wrote: While b2b grants "engaged" status to both models, it is no longer referenced later on in regards to attacks
Engaged is referenced in multiple parts as well as disengaged, which is no longer being engaged. In the Hand to Hand attacks, it does talk about becoming disengaged from hand to hand combat. "The target of a successful Body Block is disengaged from hand to hand combat with the original attacker at the end of the Body Block. If the target should be pushed into base to base contact with another enemy mecha, it is then engaged in hand to hand combat with that mecha, which can attack the target mecha with hand to hand attacks of its own when its gets to attack."
It also talks about Grab, "The attack does no MD, but prevents the enemy mecha from spending Command Points to disengage from hand to hand combat until the beginning of the next turn if the grab strikes and isn't parried."
Outnumbered in Hand to Hand Combat, "One sure way to lose a hand to hand combat is to be outnumbered. All attacking mecha gain a +1 bonus to Strike in hand to hand combat for each other friendly mecha that is engaged with the target and is not engaged with any other enemy mecha. This is applied to each of the attacking mecha's roll to Strike against the outnumbered defender."
It seems fairly clear to me through reading through the whole thing what is meant by engaged and disengage. If you are only reading the first sentence of Hand to Hand combat, then yes I can agree. But if you continue to read the whole section, the intention and what is meant seems outlined. I could agree that that line about rolling to attack could be removed but I honestly don't think it is that difficult to understand.
Dark Severance wrote: Using the reasoning and path you are going along that would also mean that mecha on the ground couldn't shoot at aircraft, because you are still saying they are engaged. It doesn't make sense that you can punch an Aircraft but you then you can't shoot it because if it was engaged in hand to hand, it couldn't use their weapon systems at all.
No, the disconnect seems to be that you believe that a hand to hand attack, can only be attempted by a model that is engaged. The rules we've seen mentioned don't have that requirement. Engagements have one set of rules, and hand to hand attacks have others. There is some overlap (in that you can do hand to hand attacks in an engagement), but they're not, at least given the rules mentioned, completely entwined. If that's the intent, then there needs to be an errata issued. Though that'd rule out H2H against static objects. If it's not intended against flying units, that'd require errata to the Flight rules.
So, just read the newest update and it's full of gak. I passed the PB booth at least 3 times during GenCon and all 3 times the demo tables were empty. There was no crowd surrounding the tables like there were, say, the FFG demo areas like they want you to believe.
There may have been some peak times, but definitely not the constant attention they want you to believe.
Actually Dark Severance, you are correct IF the mecha in question that was attacking the aircraft was base to base, because that model is not exempt from the standard rule for engagement. Only the aircraft is never considered engaged in HtH, the mecha that was in base to base would have to have the aircraft special rule to also be exempt.
So yes, if you go base to base with an aircraft you can only attack it in HtH, as you would be considered engaged in HtH.
Platuan4th wrote: So, just read the newest update and it's full of gak. I passed the PB booth at least 3 times during GenCon and all 3 times the demo tables were empty. There was no crowd surrounding the tables like there were, say, the FFG demo areas like they want you to believe.
There may have been some peak times, but definitely not the constant attention they want you to believe.
This seems to be about par for the course with palladium lately.
Also, I've noticed that there will be a lack of QC on the majority of this if the lack of laminated cards, templates and tokens are any indication.
They said before that container 2 was supposed to arrive the week they got back from Gencon.
Now it's not even due to leave china until the end of the month, meaning they'll be lucky to have it in hand by the end of Sept (assuming it doesn't roll a 99 on the percentile as well!), meaning delivery is already another month behind, and any backers unlucky enough to not be in wave one will get to listen to those gush about their packages (well, or bemoan them) for a month and a half or more.
Also, it'll be a fun race to see if they even manage to get boxes to retail before Christmas at this point.
Well, unless they had to dedicate some for retail to build hype and buzz about the game during the busy holiday season, but no, they'd never do that.... >.>
Morgan Vening wrote: No, the disconnect seems to be that you believe that a hand to hand attack, can only be attempted by a model that is engaged. The rules we've seen mentioned don't have that requirement. Engagements have one set of rules, and hand to hand attacks have others. There is some overlap (in that you can do hand to hand attacks in an engagement), but they're not, at least given the rules mentioned, completely entwined.
I've read them multiple times and I have really tried to see what everyone else is seeing but I must be completely blind. The only part that I can see as possibly confusing is the part where it says "then roll Strike as normal" just before it explains the rest of the Hand to Hand in the Engaged section. But if we are going just on that, you roll strike and then what... since we've skipped over the choose an attack.
Spoiler:
As seen in the image under the Hand to Hand Combat, specifically as part the "Engaged in Hand to Hand Combat", section it states, "When a mecha makes a hand to hand attack, the players must do the following:". Then it indents the next paragraphs, the next steps of Hand to Hand combat. Those paragraphs are indented as a list within the "Engaged in Hand to Hand Combat" part. It isn't separate from the Engaged section. As part of that section, Choose an Attack, Choose a Target, Roll to Strike, Roll to Parry, Roll with Impact and then Taking Damage... all part of Engaged in Hand to Hand Combat.
Spoiler:
It doesn't break out of the list to start a completely new paragraph differentiating from Engaged in Hand to Hand, until we get to "Outnumbered in Hand to Hand Combat" paragraph.
Spoiler:
Then it proceeds to explain the various types of Hand to Hand attacks that you can choose, depending on what is actually available depending for the type of mecha. I don't seem to see where engaged rules are one thing and Hand to Hand rules are completely separate and not related. If I'm only reading the engaged rules, then where are the hand to hand rules that are separate?
You are forging a logical (and sensible) link that is not actually in the rules. The rules for HtH attacks, even in the picture shown, mention one condition to be able to use HtH attacks and that is that you are in BtB contact. If you are in BtB you can use HtH attacks, full stop. Engagement is not mentioned at all.
Now, engagement is a condition caused by being in BtB contact and thus would normally occur at the same time as being able to make HtH attacks. However, being engaged clearly does certain things as evidenced by it's own section, but if you read closely granting the ability to use HtH attacks is not actually mentioned. Being engaged prevents the use of weapon systems, but does not in and of itself grant the ability to use HtH attacks. The only thing that mentions allowing HtH attacks is being in BtB.
So, the two rule sections involved share a trigger, but are not actually linked in any way beyond that nor do the mechanics of attacking mention the engaged status. Under Choose a Target, it again only specifies BtB contact and does not require that the target model is engaged (which would be the specific status that aircraft are exempt from). So while an aircraft is never engaged, it's irrelevant because being engaged is in no way a requirement to be hit by HtH attacks.
This can lead to nonseniscal situations (a Battlepod body blocking and then stomping an aircraft), so it's likely there was an intent for them to be linked at least as regards attacking aircraft. That said, such a link does not appear to be in the rules as simply sharing a trigger does not mean that given rules are intertwined. That one seems a good candidate for an FAQ to either fix it or make it clear that this was the intended function.
Hello, Wayne here. We’re all back from Gen Con. As most of you know, we did not get our miracle, so Robotech® RPG Tactics™ wasn't released from US Customs in time for us to have it for sale at the convention. However, we did have three copies with us to display, and we ran tons of demos. For more details, I’ll let Kevin’s Gen Con Report below fill you in.
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The reaction to Robotech® RPG Tactics™ at Gen Con was overwhelmingly positive. People liked what they saw, enjoyed the demos, and liked the game play and the size and detail of the game pieces. Some were positively giddy. I have to admit, so are we. We met many Kickstarter backers who expressed their support and appreciation for the game, and we returned the favor by shaking their hands and expressing our appreciation for them. It has been a long, rough journey, but the end product is sweet. Cannot wait till we can start shipping out product.
And speaking of product, I am happy to report that the first container from China has been released by US Customs and we expect to begin shipping by the end of next week. Meanwhile, Wayne Smith has been working with various out-of-house tech people to set up our new shipping hardware and software. We had technicians and IT people in and out of the office all week as they set up the new systems and customize software to suit our needs.
We have been hesitant to offer completion and shipping dates, because they seem to be constantly shifting and changing. I think the completion and ship dates for Container One changed something like four or five times; one day here, three days there, another two day delay later, then the boat left port a day and a half late, made up that day and a half at sea, only to see the container tagged and held up by US Customs for a random inspection. It seems crazy to us at Palladium Books to subject YOU to that kind of frustration and tension. However, many of you have told us that is exactly what you want to know. We aim to please, so we’ll tell you what we know, when we know it, but you need to realize that timetables and dates are almost certain to change. Shifting schedules in China, shipping schedules and intervention by Customs are beyond our control. Wayne is tentatively scheduled to visit the China factories in September to see the manufacturing process and help build strong communications. Things should start to move more quickly now, with a new container of product shipping every week or two. That said, the schedule has already slipped a bit from what we were told before Gen Con. Containers Two and Three were supposed to have shipped together this past week. However, a manufacturing delay has changed that.
At this time, Container Two is now tentatively scheduled to be packed around the middle to end of next week. We do not yet have a definitive date for when the ship will leave China. Probably between August 28 and September 3. Container Three should ship about one week later, and Container Four a week or so after that. This is the data we have at this time, but as noted, it often changes. By the way, these four containers should allow us to fulfill our Kickstarter obligations for Wave One. That’s everything, prints, accessories, etc.
Oh, and we only recently realized that the plastic blast template is not painted, and it is too late to do anything about it now. This detail slipped past all of us – Palladium, Ninja Division, the factory, everyone. Sorry. It still looks great, is a quality piece of plastic and is easy to use.
Meanwhile, we are working with Harmony Gold to be allowed to provide PDFs of the core rules and other key elements of play and other fun stuff.
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave Two
Everything is in motion and Wave Two is coming. We’re also already thinking about the Masters Saga (Southern Cross), New Generation (Invid), and other eras and battle fronts (like the Zentraedi’s interplanetary war with the Invid!). I think you’ll like the things we are kicking around.
2014 Gen Con Report
Without Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to sell, there was no reason to bring our new, special storefront. We went with the usual rolling shelves and tables. We filled space with specialty items, prints and artwork we would not normally have brought along. Having Robotech® RPG Tactics™ at Gen Con was just not meant to be.
We met a large number of Kickstarter backers, and hundreds upon hundreds of gamers enjoyed demos of Robotech® RPG Tactics™. We had three sample boxes of the main game on display (one completely laid out across a six foot table), and people got to examine the actual box contents, sprues, cards, rule book, etc. Most people were thrilled with what they saw and we got many positive comments about the quality.
We had a bunch of professionally painted Robotech® RPG Tactics™ game pieces in two glass display cases, along with some unpainted ones and a few sprues, so people could see them painted and unpainted. On the two small demo tables – one manned by Palladium’s very own Jeff Burke and the other by volunteer and uber Robotech® fan, Thomas Roache – were more game pieces professionally painted by Blue Table Painting. I think Jeff and Tom were surrounded (and I do mean surrounded) by interested fans non-stop throughout Gen Con, from morning till close of the Exhibit Hall. Unfortunately, that meant many of those passing by could not get a clear look at, or the chance to photograph, these superior painted pieces. Many did, however, get to play with them. Thank you, Tom and Jeff, for your hard work and tireless efforts to demonstrate Robotech® RPG Tactics™. And to Jeff Ruiz (NMI on the Palladium boards), who pitched in and did a good job running demos during breaks.
Carmen Bellaire manned the big Robotech® RPG Tactics™ demo table at the booth. Sadly, Carmen was not his usual flamboyant and fun self. His wallet was stolen two days before we were all to leave for Gen Con. As a Canadian, without his Enhanced Driver’s License, Carmen could not cross the border from Canada into the USA. He applied for an Emergency Passport, which seemed an unlikely turn of events. To everyone’s surprise and joy, Carmen was granted an Emergency Passport, and drove all Wednesday night to arrive at Gen Con by Thursday morning. Unfortunately, the stress of the theft (canceling credit cards and such), not knowing if he would get the passport in time, and very, very little sleep took a heavy toll on him. He looked tired, even a bit sickly, and as a result, his demos lacked the energy and zip that people have come to expect from Carmen. People still had fun, but it was not the rollicking Bellaire experience folks have come to expect. Moreover, Carmen had done a quick, basic painting of the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ game pieces with an unconventional color scheme that some people did not think showed them off in their best light, but we had to make due with what we had.
There were only so many advance game pieces from China to paint and use in demos. Despite having Blue Table Painting do nearly 60 game pieces and two other gents painting up another 10 or so, there were only so many for demonstrations. Carmen’s table used a combination of the actual plastic game pieces and our old demo pieces. As the other two, smaller demo tables were in constant use and usually surrounded by players and spectators, the large table with the unconventional painted game pieces was what many people got to see, especially when just walking by.
Pat Jakubowski ran two or three “official” Robotech® RPG Tactics™ games as part of Palladium’s block of 50+ Gen Con gaming events. From all reports, Pat rocked these games and players had a blast. I had several players come to the Palladium booth the next day specifically to tell me how much fun they had in his games. Awesome. I also had several people who played in demos as well as these games tell me they thought Robotech® RPG Tactics™ was fast, fun and a winner destined to be a big hit. (From your mouths to God’s ears.) Many people also commented on the quality and level of detail, and how much they were looking forward to the game’s release. Fantastic.
Well at least we now have someone to blame for this 'whole' debacle.
Frikken Carmen 'Grumpy Cat' Bellaire, thanks for dragging down the awesome-ness with your crap attitude and shoddy substandard painting.
Thank the gaming gods that Kevin S. was there to salvage Gen Con for the rest of humanity.
...I'll just put this here, cross posted from the Heavy Gear thread and from someone completely unrelated to the Robotech KS:
IceRaptor wrote: It was very... shall we say telling... to compare DP9's booth to the booths for Dark Age, Mercs, Relic Knights, DZC, Infinity, Malifaux. Warmachine is the beast it always is; but Malifaux's plastics beat the snot out of everything else, and gives them a great position long term, I think. Infinity had a better presence again this year; I caught part of their seminar and their growth is basically geometric at this point. They're up to 33 FTEs at this point and project further growth. Relic Knights had a fairly strong showing - good banner, great booth, excellent rulebook (in terms of composition) - check it out yourself http://sodapopminiatures.com/media/downloads/relic-knights-rulebook-web.pdf. They shared a long booth with DZC, which has fantastic production quality for their figures and the paper-terrain to help them make good sales. I was impressed with what they can accomplish with DP9 style prices which was the real killer - better quality for the same price. Mercs had a strong showing as well, building off their previous success with 4 (!) new games; Myth (kickstarted), Mercs Recon, Mercs Conflict and Emergence Event. Their booth and demo area was always hopping. Dark Age also had a strong showing, with a small tournament and new miniatures. They seemed to be gaining steam more than losing it. Robotech Tactics was present as well... but, well - see the other thread for that. I had my heart set on buying a box, saw the miniatures and kept my wallet in check. I might get a Super VF-1S as a desk model, but that will be about it.
IceRaptor wrote: The Tomahawks and Spartans aren't bad, though the flash on their feet is annoying. The guardians were so static is was painful. The VFs looked okay from a tabletop perspective, but there's no way I'm assembling 12 models of 30 pieces each for a starter army. Forget that.
Platuan4th wrote: So, just read the newest update and it's full of gak. I passed the PB booth at least 3 times during GenCon and all 3 times the demo tables were empty. There was no crowd surrounding the tables like there were, say, the FFG demo areas like they want you to believe.
There may have been some peak times, but definitely not the constant attention they want you to believe.
I can confirm all of this. I just rolled my eyes when I read the update.
Oh I am sure that the elder neckbeard council will retell this saga for decades to come. The end will be much farther off than the fulfillment of the kickstarter
Same here, the big table had a game Thursday, then nothing fri. and sat. and the smaller tables were full only one day.. I loitered for a while, no one offered a demo. I stood at one for like 10 minutes until one of the MA's or whoever was like "You need something?" .... not with that attitude.. I just said nope and gave up, walked off.
Funny, I thought maybe when I walked past it was just during quiet time, but also noticed how dead the booth was the 3 or 4 times I walked by. Especially considering how I could barely walk through the aisles due to traffic until passing the palladium booth.
Swabby wrote: The saddest part of all of this is that they may be telling the truth. That may have been a crowd for them.
You just aren't familiar with the Simbiedabible: And yea, despair not, for while the doubters may see only a dozen customers, the righteous know that a fan-friend counts as a hundred in the eyes of the Simbienlightened.
fruitlewps wrote: Same here, the big table had a game Thursday, then nothing fri. and sat. and the smaller tables were full only one day.. I loitered for a while, no one offered a demo. I stood at one for like 10 minutes until one of the MA's or whoever was like "You need something?" .... not with that attitude.. I just said nope and gave up, walked off.
Funny you mention that. One of the MA's was asked to step down as the head coordinater for PB. He was asked to step down and then quit. From what I was told from one side this person didn't communicate well about GC and there were complaints about how he ran the demos and he didn't have the proper materials as well as not being where he should be.
Is there a way to actually get in to look at these things without logging into Facebook? I've gone years without doing so, and would like to continue my streak.
As many of you have heard I was formally asked to step down from the MA Cordinator spot, due to my lack of communication concerning Gen Con, I find this a distasteful and slandering remark, but will discuss this with any person who wishes to know the truth of the matter via email.
As it stands I will be taking a hiatus from running, organizing or promoting this companies games on the west coast, and have made this known to my convention friends. As it stands I feel I am no longer appreciated or really cared for if ever by this company or its golden umbrella people.
So to every one who has any heart in this company I say Game on, for those who are or have been like me, I know what you feel like guys and I am sorry I have rained on your parades for so long.
Well good bye for now or always depending on how vengeful the board gods are.
The plot thickens on Days of our General Megaversal Hospital Turns! I don't exactly recall but is he one of the League of Fan Friends who were going to slave away for free shipping our stuff?
warboss wrote: The plot thickens on Days of our General Megaversal Hospital Turns! I don't exactly recall but is he one of the League of Fan Friends who were going to slave away for free shipping our stuff?
Since they would apparently have had to ship his ass in from the West Coast I seriously doubt it.
Why do that when I think the concentration of Kool-Aid drinkers seems to be located fairly locally? Or so I assume, based on the number that religiously visit open houses.
My buddy asked me to pick up the Max and Miriya figures for him, which I figured might be tough. I didn't get to it until Friday and I was afraid they might be sold out already given the mad rush for other con exclusives, or just to get demos of upcoming FFG and WK games, I had seen in my brief foray into the dealer hall between games on Thursday afternoon.
When I got to the Palladium booth, they had about a dozen Miriya's and a half dozen or so Max's. There was one other guy there, talking to Kevin and somebody else I did not recognize, not being a big time Palladium fan. There were at least three other people manning the booth, one of whom was standing around the demo tables with nothing to do at that moment. The other two, a man and a woman, accepted my money for my buddy's minis.
I let them know I backed the KS and the man said he hoped it would ship soon. I said the miniatures looked really good and he said something I don't even remember. That's about what the booth looked like all of that day and the next. I didn't go back to the dealer hall on Sunday.
The kind of hater I am, I would have released some 20 crickets or so around their booth just to add to the ambiance.
Then I would have asked what is this "Robotech thing"?
Just getting them to explain it would have been fun.
"So let me get this straight, the main series ended in 1984 (30 years ago) and a movie came out in 2007 (7 years ago) and you are putting out a game now? Is it a boardgame? Is this a novelty item?" "Ah it is a kickstarter launch... when was it funded?" "I heard there was some Ninja Division group involved, what do they do? Are they here?"
Forget it, I will save it for next year if they decide to show up at Anime North again.
I am not a very good troll, but they desperately need more trolling done to them.
I had a VERY bad thought, could you imagine if Fantasy Flight Games made a Robotech game? Like X-wing? My only thought would be: TAKE MY MONEY NOW, WILL $1000 COVER IT???!!!
If you take a look at page 1 of this thread, you will that warboss suggested using the minis for Flight Path style gaming and me emphatically agreeing that is a great use for them.
Manchu wrote: If you take a look at page 1 of this thread, you will that warboss suggested using the minis for Flight Path style gaming and me emphatically agreeing that is a great use for them.
I was just thinking of the pre-painted models they would produce.
Then the "mouth watering" concept would become a reality.
Never mind the rules which would be wonderful adding to great.
I had a VERY bad thought, could you imagine if Fantasy Flight Games made a Robotech game? Like X-wing? My only thought would be: TAKE MY MONEY NOW, WILL $1000 COVER IT???!!!
Scary part is I think I am not joking.
With FFG's level of quality of minis, prepaints and rules? I'd be selling my car. I plan to use some of Palladium's lumps of plastic for X-Wing anyways. I might use different maneuver dials for the three VF modes, and changing mode as an action, or something.
In related news, if FFG ever releases a Gundam version of X-Wing, I'll be fethed forever.
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Mike1975 wrote: I would have been super happy with something this simple.
Yeah, I said as much a long time ago :( You'll notice those have more detail than PB's lumps of plastic, and magically are not made as jigsaw puzzles.
Yeah, I would have been happy with those as well. We would have gotten 1/10 the minis for the $140 price tag of the blitzkrieg pledge but they would have been painted, much better looking, and come with better rules/support/communication. Just look at the feet on those gashapon and then compare them to the pic Bad Syntax posted of his primed veritech battloid.
warboss wrote: Yeah, I would have been happy with those as well. We would have gotten 1/10 the minis for the $140 price tag of the blitzkrieg pledge but they would have been painted, much better looking, and come with better rules/support/communication. Just look at the feet on those gashapon and then compare them to the pic Bad Syntax posted of his primed veritech battloid.
I still console myself with the idea that the zent stuff is mainly savageable... and there aren't many gashapons of those. I'll buy gashas for Spacy combatants and I dunno, I'll sell the spacy crap or something.
"Palladium Lowers the Bar:
For those of you not tracking the Robotech Tactics debacle at Palladium Games, here’s the short version. They ran a KickStarter for a miniatures game and ran into the exact same problems that almost every other company encounters in doing miniatures. They countered these issues with horrible communications and denials that they are missing dates (they are simply moving back delivery dates…duh.) Then before GenCon they announced that they had the product, but would not be delivering to their Kickstarter participants until after the Con. At the same time they announced they would be selling the game to the public at GenCon.
In an effort to pour kerosene on an already raging bonfire of hatred and distrust, Palladium announced an online vote to see if they would bring the product to GenCon – and that if you didn’t vote, they would count it as a “Yes” vote. Stalin would have been proud.
Well, I wanted to see the final product, maybe buy it. What I found was two empty demo tables and a stack of order forms. Apparently Palladium’s shipping container was hung up in customs. Gee, no surprise there – every KickStarter seems to encounter this. Palladium’s “strategy” at the convention was to get you to pay them for a game they didn’t have and had missed countless (okay five) dates on delivering on – and they would ship it to you someday-ish, maybe. I didn’t have to fight any crowds. In fact, it was like a tomb there. The few fans that Palladium had not pissed off found out they couldn’t add to their armies, because there was no new noticeable convention product, which managed to drive them to the ranks of the “Let’s Burn Palladium!” crowd. The SCA crowd was trying to sell pitchforks and torches to the agitated and fading fan-base that Palladium has managed defile at every turn.
The only good thing about Palladium’s public relations move is that people were more irritated at them than at WizKids (though it was a close race in my mind.)
Manchu wrote: It's really a bit much to call any of these minis crap.
From what I've seen so far, I reiterate my statement. Have you taken a look at the lack of detail (the parts basically only have detail in one face, if at all... the only real detail you can see in the rest of the faces are the seams), the softness of the detail there is, the production defects? I do assume you already have seen the completely nuts amount of parts, the fiddliness of them, the lack of poseability, the questionable decisions made on them...
It is quite evident to me that Palladium have chosen the cheapest of the el cheapo manufacturers, and it shows. Even with their suspect 3d designs, the amount of detail lost from said 3d designs to the actual models is staggering.
Manchu wrote: I have seen them in person and they are pretty nice, actually.
And the rest can only go by what been shown online. As such they are pretty bad, you think they would of put their best foot forward in the pics. But, all I see are subpar models from what was said to be the top of the line production by PB. Yeah, NO.
Manchu wrote: It's really a bit much to call any of these minis crap.
While I agree that calling the whole project crap is indeed very unfair, I would add that IMO parts of it are indeed crap like the destroids. The rest fall generally into the wide spectrum of "mediocre" (veritechs and glaugs) to decent (regults). Regardless of my opinions on the actual crunch, the rulebook itself and cards (with the minor caveat of reused art) look very nice especially given it coming from palladium who last updated their rpg book format back when Reagan was running for re-election. Nothing shown so far in wave one though has knocked my socks off.
Manchu wrote: Why would you rely on PB's word for what is "top of line" for miniatures? They have no experience with miniatures.
I'm not I am saying when someone calls their stuff great, them only shows crap in pics. I'm going to call it crap, I don't care what some ramdom person on the net says but what the photos show.
Manchu wrote: Why would you rely on PB's word for what is "top of line" for miniatures? They have no experience with miniatures.
Except for the ones they've been selling for over 25 years. They've had their toes in minis since the 1980s with the original lead robotech offerings. They're new to plastic minis but theyve been in the business of making and selling minis of their IP almost nonstop since the mid 1990s.
Manchu wrote: Why would you rely on PB's word for what is "top of line" for miniatures? They have no experience with miniatures.
Except for the ones they've been selling for over 25 years. They've had their toes in minis since the 1980s with the original lead robotech offerings. They're new to plastic minis but theyve been in the business of making and selling minis of their IP almost nonstop since the mid 1990s.
I would like to formally make a request to the mods that a separate thread related solely to Robotech rules discussions be allowed to be created without being locked.
As we get closer to the arrival of the Robotech game, and with the entire rulebook available online to be viewed, I'd really like to discuss aspects of the game engine and not have to sift through the myriad volume of complaints related to the fulfillment of the Kickstarter.
I'd rather not just create a new thread without mod approval as it might seem like a separate redundant thread since this thread does have the occasional rules discussion.
So you would say the folks selling those miniatures are experts in miniature quality?
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judgedoug wrote: I would like to formally make a request to the mods that a separate thread related solely to Robotech rules discussions be allowed to be created without being locked.
As we get closer to the arrival of the Robotech game, and with the entire rulebook available online to be viewed, I'd really like to discuss aspects of the game engine and not have to sift through the myriad volume of complaints related to the fulfillment of the Kickstarter.
I'd rather not just create a new thread without mod approval as it might seem like a separate redundant thread since this thread does have the occasional rules discussion.
Yes, this sounds like a good idea. Please go ahead and open a Rules Discussion thread in this same sub-forum.
Talk about Palladium PR, KS delivery issues, and miniature quality can stay ITT. Thanks!
So you would say the folks selling those miniatures are experts in miniature quality?
I would say they are not new to selling miniatures and not inexperienced at that. After all, doing it for about 25 years is almost as long as GW. Do you disagree?
warboss wrote: They're new to plastic minis but theyve been in the business of making and selling minis of their IP almost nonstop since the mid 1990s.
Compared to what they have been selling, their RoboTech minis are top of the line.
So you would say the folks selling those miniatures are experts in miniature quality?
Hey, don't shoot the messenger. It's not our fault palladium seemingly learned very little about minis in their multiple decades of making and selling them!
warboss wrote: They're new to plastic minis but theyve been in the business of making and selling minis of their IP almost nonstop since the mid 1990s.
Compared to what they have been selling, their RoboTech minis are top of the line.
Compared with what everybody else is selling, though...
Even then, I'd say their old minis might even have more defined details:
Albertorius wrote: I would say they are not new to selling miniatures and not inexperienced at that. After all, doing it for about 25 years is almost as long as GW. Do you disagree?
Yes, I disagree. I would say selling metal minis to RPGers decades ago (i.e., Palladium's current model) is absolutely nothing like selling plastic kits to war gamers in 2012 and after. As you can see from this very thread, I jumped on this KS very early on and somehow never once got the idea that the miniatures would be better than GW's stuff. Aside from Palladium's inexperience, the other big clue was the involvement of Ninja Division, which does not IMO make very good miniatures, either.
warboss wrote: Hey, don't shoot the messenger. It's not our fault palladium seemingly learned very little about minis in their multiple decades of making and selling them!
Honestly, I could say the same thing about almost everything Reaper makes.
Albertorius wrote: Even then, I'd say their old minis might even have more defined details:
If that is your standard, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by RoboTech minis with a good paintjob, unless of course you are already committed to an opinion.
Manchu wrote: Honestly, I could say the same thing about almost everything Reaper makes.
I think reaper has done a great job within the self imposed restriction of one piece metals at least with their characters. I wasnt a fan of the CAV sculpts though. Ymmv.
Albertorius wrote: I would say they are not new to selling miniatures and not inexperienced at that. After all, doing it for about 25 years is almost as long as GW. Do you disagree?
Yes, I disagree. I would say selling metal minis to RPGers decades ago (i.e., Palladium's current model) is absolutely nothing like selling plastic kits to war gamers in 2012 and after. As you can see from this very thread, I jumped on this KS very early on and somehow never once got the idea that the miniatures would be better than GW's stuff. Aside from Palladium's inexperience, the other big clue was the involvement of Ninja Division, which does not IMO make very good miniatures, either.
warboss wrote: Hey, don't shoot the messenger. It's not our fault palladium seemingly learned very little about minis in their multiple decades of making and selling them!
Honestly, I could say the same thing about almost everything Reaper makes.
Ninja Division make Super Dungeon Explore and Relic Knights: do you really think those are worse minis?
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Manchu wrote: If that is your standard, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by RoboTech minis with a good paintjob, unless of course you are already committed to an opinion.
That is my standard for 1 part minis 25 years old, yes. I'd expect loads better for 16-20 part ones.
Albertorius wrote: Ninja Division make Super Dungeon Explore and Relic Knights: do you really think those are worse minis?
I don't like either range; neither as a matter of aesthetics nor as a matter of quality. (In fact, I canceled my pre-order of SDE when pics of the minis started to surface.) I think there have been some paintjobs that make them look okay, however.
Albertorius wrote: Ninja Division make Super Dungeon Explore and Relic Knights: do you really think those are worse minis?
I don't like either range; neither as a matter of aesthetics or as a matter of quality. (In fact, I canceled my pre-order of SDE when pics of the minis started to surface.) I think there have been some paintjobs that make them look okay, however.
Yes, but he is pointing out the models are of better quality then the RTT models. If you don't like their quality how can you like RTT, seem more like aesthetics thing after all.
Albertorius wrote: Ninja Division make Super Dungeon Explore and Relic Knights: do you really think those are worse minis?
I don't like either range; neither as a matter of aesthetics nor as a matter of quality. (In fact, I canceled my pre-order of SDE when pics of the minis started to surface.) I think there have been some paintjobs that make them look okay, however.
Have you actually had them in hand, to ascertain the quality of the sculpts and how many detail actually got ported to the mini? And if so, do you think ND's are of the same quality as the RRT ones? Aesthetics are not relevant right now.
Albertorius wrote: Have you actually had them in hand, to ascertain the quality of the sculpts and how many detail actually got ported to the mini? And if so, do you think ND's are of the same quality as the RRT ones? Aesthetics are not relevant right now.
I saw both at GenCon. I think the RoboTech models are pretty nice, certainly not crap. I think the SDE miniatures are okay as well (if not to my taste) but I don't think they are are dramatically better in quality. Looking at the SDE stuff in person, I was not sad that I canceled my pre-order. Looking at the RoboTech stuff in person, I was not sad that I pledged for the KS (at least not because of model quality).
Noir wrote: If you don't like their quality how can you like RTT
Please keep in mind that my position is that the RoboTech miniatures are "pretty nice" and "certainly not crap" -- I am not saying they are "top of the line" (apparently like PB).
Manchu wrote: I saw both at GenCon. I think the RoboTech models are pretty nice, certainly not crap. I think the SDE miniatures are okay as well (if not to my taste) but I don't think they are are dramatically better in quality. Looking at the SDE stuff in person, I was not sad that I canceled my pre-order. Looking at the RoboTech stuff in person, I was not sad that I pledged for the KS (at least not because of model quality).
OK then, we'll have to agree to disagree . I've had SDE and RK minis on hand and they have details in all the planes of their volume, which to me is a marked improvement when compared with the Spacy stuff from RRT. But of course, a good sprue distribution and minis cutting does wonders for that.
EDIT: Ah, a last question. Did you get to compare the RRT minis with the new plastic one-part Battletech ones?
Bare plastic is the only real means of comparison.
Even I can make a blobby hunk of plastic look OK with a careful paintjob: you can paint on detail that is not there.
These models are to be like "paint by numbers", I should be able to put a base color on and a wash and be 80% done. If the detail is not there, this painting method will show the shortfalls rather quickly.
I have a bad feeling about my Wave 1 stuff, hope I am wrong.
Talizvar wrote: These models are to be like "paint by numbers", I should be able to put a base color on and a wash and be 80% done. If the detail is not there, this painting method will show the shortfalls rather quickly.
So... this, then, for the 80%?
(incidentally, it looks like the deviantart guy this pictures belong to has deleted my comment).
Anyone care to get their hands on some of these awesome, mouth watering, high quality miniatures let me know, once wave 1 ships I'll have some for sale..maybe I'll get some Christmas money...lol
Now I know why these are mouth-watering miniatures. Because vomit is in part, a liquid. Mouth-watering indeed.
Seriously, those things are nausatingly bad. I'd prefer bare, unpainted miniatures at the demo tables to those disgusting things. They're far worse than the first space marine I've painted at age 9. At least that thing stayed vaguely inside the lines, and had solid colors.
These literally look like someone rolled one around in a puddle of paint and then hosed off with some brackish water, then put in the dirt to dry.
It also speaks to the cheapness and lack of care when you look at that awful flowerpot terrain, next to the perfectly servicible but cardstock buildings from another, superior company (the Dropzone Commander paper city set)
Imo,the painted ones still look way better than the unpainted ones. At least with that paintjob, there's something to distract you from the multitude of seams
Let's be fair, many of those demo pieces were not professionally done.
Yes, they should have been.
Many were painted by the volunteers that ran the demo tables, one in particular that by all accounts goes above and beyond.
PB blame him for backlash. This isn't fair.
It's not his responsibility to get quality work done to show off the quality of the models.
It's not fair to judge someone who isn't a professional modeller/painter on the same grounds as we would someone claiming to be a professional.
So let's lay off the demo pieces, huh? We know PB should have done them properly, but there's no need to make a guy who spent an undefined amount of his own time making an effort on them feel like crap.
I don't know... I did a lot of painting teaching back when I was a redshirt at GW. That is literally worse than most I've seen done by 10 year-olds as their first mini (but they did have us ).
And I actually think it's fair to judge them as professionals. They were promoting their official game, at their official venue. The QC is obviously PB's problem. Once they get put at the table, though? I'll judge them on the same basis as anyone else's showcase demo tables.
There's nothing wrong with saying a paintjob is horrible if it is although I'll agree it's really PBs responsibility to make sure there are fairly decently painted minis on their demo tables.
Also, I think another part of the issue is that these are some of the FIRST painted minis we've seen out in the wild. Literally. So yes, people are going to focus on them because there aren't many other examples to focus on.
Nah, my point was the stuff in the display cabinets was supposed to be 'professional', whereas the stuff on the tables wasn't - that was apparently done by (very amateur) volunteers. Why that is the case is beyond me, but that seems to be the situation.
Whilst it (the demo stuff) should have been presented professionally (neat but basic bulk paintjobs), and *Palladium* deserve all the flak they get over that, it's not fair to criticise the poor shmo that did it.
I'm just kinda saying 'aim the blame where it's due', if you follow me.
This said, if it turns out that a 'pro' studio did any of these (what exactly did BTP paint), then they also deserve a fair amount of fire for the shoddy work.
If you believe KS, and the Surgeon General has a warning out against consuming large amounts of BS, their two small tables had models professionally painted by BTP, but those were SO SWAMPED by eager attendees that almost nobody got to photograph them. Instead, people could only gather around the BIG table where the poor schmo who reportedly had quite a bit of drama just getting to GenCon had his own personally painted models with a "basic" paint job.
If you think that KS just said that to equip his True Believers with hand-wavium to dismiss people criticizing the paintjobs even though many of the pictures likely are of the BTP tables, you win nothing...because it's pretty obvious. My guess is that the blue/black battlepods were the poor unfortunate's, but those "weathered" models recently posted are the BTP ones. However, winterdyne probably has better contacts to find out that sort of thing than me (which is easy, since I have no contacts).
Also, curse you Albertorius for posting that sprue pic of the PSC PzIV I spend too much on tiny tanks as it is damnit...
winterdyne wrote: Nah, my point was the stuff in the display cabinets was supposed to be 'professional', whereas the stuff on the tables wasn't - that was apparently done by (very amateur) volunteers. Why that is the case is beyond me, but that seems to be the situation.
From what I've seen on photos, I'd only consider actually professionally done a handful of the minis inside the display cabinet, you know. I've come to expect a certain level of quality from display miniatures.
The rest would have been all right for demos, though.
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Krinsath wrote: Also, curse you Albertorius for posting that sprue pic of the PSC PzIV I spend too much on tiny tanks as it is damnit...
Consider yourself an innocent bystander hit by a stray bullet ^_^
Korias1004 wrote: Anyone care to get their hands on some of these awesome, mouth watering, high quality miniatures let me know, once wave 1 ships I'll have some for sale..maybe I'll get some Christmas money...lol
This Christmas or next Christmas?
Problem is, I expect even if you got your stuff by this Christmas you'd find a bit of a buyer's market on Ebay for a while.
Krinsath wrote: their two small tables had models professionally painted by BTP
But he did not claim this:
Krinsath wrote: but those were SO SWAMPED by eager attendees that almost nobody got to photograph them
Yes, he seemingly exaggerated the amount of folks playing demos and asking about the game relative to what I and others actually witnessed at GenCon but he did not say crowds kept people from seeing the minis. I saw the minis there, both the poorly painted ones and the nicer ones (I did not know they were BTP jobs). I didn't take any pictures of the nicer ones because they looked like ones I had already seen since last GenCon.
Has this game gone on sale yet? Anywhere? This seems to be dragging. With all the money they raised I dont understand how I havent seen this game on sale everywhere by now.
Peeps who put their payments in on kickstarter must be irritated.
Krinsath wrote: their two small tables had models professionally painted by BTP
But he did not claim this:
Krinsath wrote: but those were SO SWAMPED by eager attendees that almost nobody got to photograph them
Yes, he seemingly exaggerated the amount of folks playing demos and asking about the game relative to what I and others actually witnessed at GenCon but he did not say crowds kept people from seeing the minis. I saw the minis there, both the poorly painted ones and the nicer ones (I did not know they were BTP jobs). I didn't take any pictures of the nicer ones because they looked like ones I had already seen since last GenCon.
...he also said (passed on by the person actually doing their PR work, so I can only assume it's true?) that nobody with Palladium Books had even the slightest idea of taking pictures of the miniatures.
So...how does one decide which blatant lies to believe and which ones to disbelieve?
Killionaire wrote: It also speaks to the cheapness and lack of care when you look at that awful flowerpot terrain, next to the perfectly servicible but cardstock buildings from another, superior company (the Dropzone Commander paper city set)
I like the little flowerpots and was thinking of doing something similar with my DZC cityscape terrain. :(
@ Albertorius
Those initial pictures of the models, I must admit the "dry brush" paint job was not doing the models any favors.
<shudder> I dare say they are horrible, you just don't dry brush surfaces like that... it is just SO wrong. For what little time spent painting them, one base color, a shade wash (80%!), a bit of edging would have looked worlds better.
Provided mold lines were removed and all the parting line gaps were filled...
Palladium wants our money which is apparent, but not to even expend a tiny bit of work to get it??
Looking at those blobs of paint on what is to be a showcase product...
Ever have that feeling some people do not deserve to run a business and you want to say "step aside and let me have a go!"?
I make a bloody career in evaluating supply risk and customer service, this is so painful to watch.
So many little/big things could have been made right with very little effort.
If customers for kickstarter were viewed as "partners" and treated as such, it would be like having an army for a sales force (R&D, design, Quality Eng., consultants...).
Instead, we act more as a cautionary crowd saying "keep away until they get this mess sorted out! (even then be cautious!)".
Wonder how the shipping equipment upgrades are going...
Wait till everything is packaged, send out in batches, send out to retailers first... any number of options are available.
If you see a box of the game at your local store, just don't tell anyone: it hurts enough.
Wonder how the shipping equipment upgrades are going...
I wonder how they expected anyone beyond the most die hard gullible fan friend to believe that taking most of the first container to gencon to sell wouldn't delay backers' shipments when backers apparently need the first FOUR containers to fill their wave 1 requirements and the people that SHOULD have been setting up the shipping were gone except for a skeleton crew of one or two guys left back at home base. If they had gotten the first container, the backer shipping system still wouldn't have been set up and the other containers still haven't been even loaded let alone arrived like they claimed they would have. They'd have shipped of a dozen or so packages during gencon to select fan friend backers and called it "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!" while they sold hundred of boxes to people at the con that were already sold to backers.
Thankfully, PB's dastardly plan was thwarted by the US Government. (I assume someone in Customs backed the KS.) So moving on, will PB start shipping out of that first container as soon as Customs releases it? Has that already happened?
Wonder how the shipping equipment upgrades are going...
I wonder how they expected anyone beyond the most die hard gullible fan friend to believe that taking most of the first container to gencon to sell wouldn't delay backers' shipments when backers apparently need the first FOUR containers to fill their wave 1 requirements and the people that SHOULD have been setting up the shipping were gone except for a skeleton crew of one or two guys left back at home base. If they had gotten the first container, the backer shipping system still wouldn't have been set up and the other containers still haven't been even loaded let alone arrived like they claimed they would have. They'd have shipped of a dozen or so packages during gencon to select fan friend backers and called it "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!" while they sold hundred of boxes to people at the con that were already sold to backers.
I still bet they will ship to distributors before they take care of backers,
Maaaaaaaaaaybe they'll be clever (and certainly with a sob story) and split it 50/50 or something. But no way all backers get wave one before distributors start getting it.
It has already been released IIRC according to the latest update. If you read between the lies, blame game, and marketing speak you'll find it in there.
warboss wrote: It has already been released IIRC according to the latest update. If you read between the lies, blame game, and marketing speak you'll find it in there.
It's definitely released. And since it generally takes 3-4 days to drive something cross country it should be there by the next time our friend Kevin toots out another rainbow.
Korias1004 wrote: Anyone care to get their hands on some of these awesome, mouth watering, high quality miniatures let me know, once wave 1 ships I'll have some for sale..maybe I'll get some Christmas money...lol
This Christmas or next Christmas?
Problem is, I expect even if you got your stuff by this Christmas you'd find a bit of a buyer's market on Ebay for a while.
Whenever, and I have already accepted I'll probably sell at a significant loss, but at this point I don't mind and just want some of mine and my Father's money, whom I sadly got to also back this endeavor. I'll just sink the funding back into GW as stated or MtG.
I think its funny no one has mentioned PB's next excuse for delays of container one shipping. The whole fact that they are just now getting the software and training to use said software for shipping all the rewards... seems very convenient for another 3 week delay at the fault of the inept tech installers, the under delivering power company, technically challenged volunteers handling the orders, etc.
Whenever, and I have already accepted I'll probably sell at a significant loss, but at this point I don't mind and just want some of mine and my Father's money, whom I sadly got to also back this endeavor. I'll just sink the funding back into GW as stated or MtG.
While I understand lots of people are angry at delays and such, I still don't understand this aspect. You're getting the models and rules, so where does this desire actually come from? What makes you want to actually ditch the product without having played it?
Whenever, and I have already accepted I'll probably sell at a significant loss, but at this point I don't mind and just want some of mine and my Father's money, whom I sadly got to also back this endeavor. I'll just sink the funding back into GW as stated or MtG.
While I understand lots of people are angry at delays and such, I still don't understand this aspect. You're getting the models and rules, so where does this desire actually come from? What makes you want to actually ditch the product without having played it?
Whenever, and I have already accepted I'll probably sell at a significant loss, but at this point I don't mind and just want some of mine and my Father's money, whom I sadly got to also back this endeavor. I'll just sink the funding back into GW as stated or MtG.
While I understand lots of people are angry at delays and such, I still don't understand this aspect. You're getting the models and rules, so where does this desire actually come from? What makes you want to actually ditch the product without having played it?
Because it's nowhere near the quality advertised?
Which part? The quality of Palladium Books as a company is certainly pretty poor, and opinions are all over the place regarding the models (I personally love the Zentraedi models and the RDF ones are acceptable for that scale, but just my opinion). But quality of models and company have never stopped people from playing 40k or WM/H or Star Trek Attack Wing or Deadzone or Kings of War. Is it the ruleset? I've only read the rules from Gencon a few times and they're quite simple and I'm really looking forward to playing them now. (But that's probably because someone else wrote them, and not Palladium).
Which part? The quality of Palladium Books as a company is certainly pretty poor, and opinions are all over the place regarding the models (I personally love the Zentraedi models and the RDF ones are acceptable for that scale, but just my opinion). But quality of models and company have never stopped people from playing 40k or WM/H or Star Trek Attack Wing or Deadzone or Kings of War. Is it the ruleset? I've only read the rules from Gencon a few times and they're quite simple and I'm really looking forward to playing them now. (But that's probably because someone else wrote them, and not Palladium).
...and plenty of people have resold all those models?
Which part? The quality of Palladium Books as a company is certainly pretty poor, and opinions are all over the place regarding the models (I personally love the Zentraedi models and the RDF ones are acceptable for that scale, but just my opinion). But quality of models and company have never stopped people from playing 40k or WM/H or Star Trek Attack Wing or Deadzone or Kings of War. Is it the ruleset? I've only read the rules from Gencon a few times and they're quite simple and I'm really looking forward to playing them now. (But that's probably because someone else wrote them, and not Palladium).
...and plenty of people have resold all those models?
Okay, so the desire to resell KS pledges is based solely on the perceived quality of miniatures and not on the game's merit itself. That's fine, I was just wondering (especially as the other poster mentioned selling his models specifically to buy GW models, which would be trading one type of low/medium quality for another type of low/medium quality)
Killionaire wrote: It also speaks to the cheapness and lack of care when you look at that awful flowerpot terrain, next to the perfectly servicible but cardstock buildings from another, superior company (the Dropzone Commander paper city set)
I like the little flowerpots and was thinking of doing something similar with my DZC cityscape terrain. :(
Whenever, and I have already accepted I'll probably sell at a significant loss, but at this point I don't mind and just want some of mine and my Father's money, whom I sadly got to also back this endeavor. I'll just sink the funding back into GW as stated or MtG.
While I understand lots of people are angry at delays and such, I still don't understand this aspect. You're getting the models and rules, so where does this desire actually come from? What makes you want to actually ditch the product without having played it?
For me, it's about speaking with my wallet. I, personally, like 40k models. It's a ruleset I already know, and after the treatment, not the delays by PB, I no longer have any desire to make any effort to learn the game, assemble their models, which look alright, or, really, give them anymore of my hard earned money. Period.
Whenever, and I have already accepted I'll probably sell at a significant loss, but at this point I don't mind and just want some of mine and my Father's money, whom I sadly got to also back this endeavor. I'll just sink the funding back into GW as stated or MtG.
While I understand lots of people are angry at delays and such, I still don't understand this aspect. You're getting the models and rules, so where does this desire actually come from? What makes you want to actually ditch the product without having played it?
For me, it's about speaking with my wallet. I, personally, like 40k models. It's a ruleset I already know, and after the treatment, not the delays by PB, I no longer have any desire to make any effort to learn the game, assemble their models, which look alright, or, really, give them anymore of my hard earned money. Period.
Gotcha, so in your case it's more dissatisfaction with the company over any other aspect of it.
I've been pretty clear that I always intended to sell off part of my package. I've got 3 battle cry boxes coming, and my two friends have another 5 between them. In hindsight we mostly wish we'd stuck more in the 4 range, but here we are.
I'll keep enough figures to field a force, but I'll likely be parting with around half of what I have coming to recoup some costs.
It's a mix of dissatisfaction with what what I'm seeing, with the company's manner of 'communicating' with backers, and simply not being interested in finding a storage and transportation solution for 300+ figures, not to mention the raw amounts of time and effort necessary to build all 6000-8000+ pieces worth of models that those represent.
Korias1004 wrote: For me, it's about speaking with my wallet. I, personally, like 40k models. It's a ruleset I already know, and after the treatment, not the delays by PB, I no longer have any desire to make any effort to learn the game, assemble their models, which look alright, or, really, give them anymore of my hard earned money. Period.
You absolutely should speak with your wallet as most companies listen only to that metric. In this case, however, it is as futile as posting on their forums. If lagging sales and a loss of the one of the top selling slots in the niche industry you're in weren't enough for Palladium to revamp their RPGs from the ground up, nothing will accomplish that. Regardless, I agree and applaud your decision to speak via your wallet. When they pulled their max/miriya stunt last year, my add ons went from pretty much one of everything not in battlecry to just two things.
and so on... and from that place I used coupon code SUNTEKSTORE15 to get 15% off if anyone else needs 'em.
Here's the car sizes compared to Battletech (MWO) mechs:
Spoiler:
Slightly off topic but.. where the heck did you get MWO style BTech models? Is someone making them somewhere? Since they're a billion times better designed than the old 80s/90s art.
Slightly off topic but.. where the heck did you get MWO style BTech models? Is someone making them somewhere? Since they're a billion times better designed than the old 80s/90s art.
PGI has allowed anyone to use the 3d files included in MWO as long as it's for personal/not-for-profit usage, so there's plenty of people cleaning up the files and getting them 3d-printed.
PB has proven it is terrible at PR. But IMO the product is looking from okay to awesome and I have been waiting for much less ambitious KS projects for much longer. I feel more positive about my pledge than ever.
Krinsath wrote: but those were SO SWAMPED by eager attendees that almost nobody got to photograph them
Yes, he seemingly exaggerated the amount of folks playing demos and asking about the game relative to what I and others actually witnessed at GenCon but he did not say crowds kept people from seeing the minis.
We can say this is a difference in interpretation, but when Kevin says:
Unfortunately, that meant many of those passing by could not get a clear look at, or the chance to photograph, these superior painted pieces.
to me that isn't a "he did not say" situation. His statement implies that few pictures of the "professionally painted" models were taken due to the crowds, because why mention the crowd and "unfortunately...many people" in any other circumstance? That's not an unfortunate circumstance; as FFG can tell you having crowded tables is a GOOD thing. It's only bad if you're trying to shovel a point of view that would make it bad. Also, the idea that "lots of crowds = no pictures" is somewhat silly on its face given that many of the people standing around those tables are carrying cameras, but I digress.
The entire next paragraph deals with the "large" table where they "had to make due with what they had" after detailing the travails of the involved demonstrator (and don't get me wrong, the events described certainly do suck for Carmen). This seems to be furthering what he's hinting at in the previous paragraph; that none of the pictures that look to show the painted models as anything less than great were from the professionally painted tables and instead were from the "large" table.
Sorry to rewind this conversation, but I was at work.
Krinsath wrote: but those were SO SWAMPED by eager attendees that almost nobody got to photograph them
Yes, he seemingly exaggerated the amount of folks playing demos and asking about the game relative to what I and others actually witnessed at GenCon but he did not say crowds kept people from seeing the minis.
We can say this is a difference in interpretation, but when Kevin says:
Unfortunately, that meant many of those passing by could not get a clear look at, or the chance to photograph, these superior painted pieces.
to me that isn't a "he did not say" situation. His statement implies that few pictures of the "professionally painted" models were taken due to the crowds, because why mention the crowd and "unfortunately...many people" in any other circumstance? That's not an unfortunate circumstance; as FFG can tell you having crowded tables is a GOOD thing. It's only bad if you're trying to shovel a point of view that would make it bad. Also, the idea that "lots of crowds = no pictures" is somewhat silly on its face given that many of the people standing around those tables are carrying cameras, but I digress.
The entire next paragraph deals with the "large" table where they "had to make due with what they had" after detailing the travails of the involved demonstrator (and don't get me wrong, the events described certainly do suck for Carmen). This seems to be furthering what he's hinting at in the previous paragraph; that none of the pictures that look to show the painted models as anything less than great were from the professionally painted tables and instead were from the "large" table.
Sorry to rewind this conversation, but I was at work.
Best part about the rush to get models painted for demo tables is in my head I'm going..... "Wait you only planned on 1 demo table" or they would of had enough painted before GEN-Con and "that doesn't show much belief in your product".
Well, I think we can at least agree that PB and Kevin (should that be and/or Kevin?) are just plain bad at PR.
For whatever reason(s), GenCon did not go well for PB on the RRT front. Kevin hamfistedly attempted to put a positive spin on things seemingly not realizing that some of the people reading his spin (a) are already skeptical of anything he writes and (b) actually were at GenCon and saw nothing like what he described. Or maybe he did realize it and he's just so hardened by various bad experiences with customers over the years and especially since this KS funded that he cynically aims his BS at those who are hypothetically most willing to swallow it/least likely to really care.
Despite knowing that Kevin is BSing me, because yes I was in fact there and the events from his perspective have nothing to do with the events from mine, it still just doesn't bother me. It's pretty much par for the course, I guess. Plus, I do think this product will deliver eventually and what I have seen of it so far IMO justifies the money I paid.
Y'know, when I professionally paint models, I take photos of them at studio level (or the best I am capable of) too. I found clients kinda like that. I'm fairly sure a couple of the photos Mantic used on their site are ones I took. The dwarf brock riders in particular, I think. Part of the service.
I'm still waiting to see proper, studio level photos of these models. I suspect I'll be waiting until I do them myself.
Incidentally, if I were to do a paint / build guide for these who'd buy it?
If you were able to add in where to add the missing details, how to correct them to what was seen on-screen, and how to paint them in a real-world style and anime style, I sure would - and I suspect most of those who went in on the KS would too. You'd probably get some sales from people who bought it once released too.
But if it was as a PDF. , then it'd have to get updates to include the character models, SDF-1, etc. that are due in wave 2 (IF that ever happens in our lifetimes, of course!)
Gah! (getting to be favorite expression on this thread)
Those parts are REALLY tiny, looking at the assembly instructions, it would have been fun (difficult) to assemble a model twice that size.
Agreed that some of those parts REALLY needed to be one piece, I thought putting together Eldar Guardians in 40k were irritating, this is a whole new level.
<edit> Agreed on the number of feed points into the parts are excessive, trimming those off will be time consuming but positive note: not likely to see short shots!
I may have to rethink the magnetizing the heads bit (metal in head magnet in body I think or say forget it and glue in anyway).
Mental note: get card sleeves to protect from the poor card stock.
On a more positive note: the model builder part of me is excited about the challenge of putting them together, I really think the seam lines and multiple pieces are readily dealt with.
Painting will be NUTS, glad I got the jeweler visor, there is a whole world in there for something so tiny.
I see no good way of painting them on the sprue, it just looks too painful (but may still be the way to go due to all the hard to reach bits).
Overall: too many parts, detail "good-enough", extra parts are good to see (a whole destroid!), #1 concern: cutting the tiny bits and making sure they do not escape my desk I would never find them again.
<add to post> For those selling their stuff, I guess it will hit Palladium a bit by selling the cut-rate models so then other customers do not buy from Palladium at retail.
STILL they have a bit of our money either way.
The only other way to "teach them" is to not buy their product.
Now it is a mixed feeling, it looks like the product is close to what we wanted so there is some joy in there, it just may be a year for a total of some two years to get it all.
sqir666 wrote: Huh, my backer kit says that my pledge is ready to ship.
A bunch of people have mentioned as much, local and international alike, apparently regardless of order size.
My guess is they did something that changed it for everyone, unless someone has found that theirs doesn't say their package is ready to ship.
Mine says it too. And since I'm one of the few people who will get theirs after you (based on purely random chance, naturally, or at least 98% of one, anyway) I think it's safe to say they flipped everyone's.
sqir666 wrote: Huh, my backer kit says that my pledge is ready to ship.
A bunch of people have mentioned as much, local and international alike, apparently regardless of order size.
My guess is they did something that changed it for everyone, unless someone has found that theirs doesn't say their package is ready to ship.
Mine says it too. And since I'm one of the few people who will get theirs after you (based on purely random chance, naturally, or at least 98% of one, anyway) I think it's safe to say they flipped everyone's.
To me it just looks like a function of the web page. I don't think they flipped a switch or anything. It's just they way the site works. Once you go through the backer kit process, the last page has always told me it's ready to ship, as in "we have your order".. People are just seeing it because we're going back and looking for our backer numbers. It was there when I first put in all my info and "order" a year ago.
I would be interested in buying RRT stuff from disillusioned backers willing to sell for a price commensurate with what they think of the quality. That is, those who think it's crap please let me know how cheap you are willing to sell.
Did you guys get an email about your backerkit status changing or are you logging in and checking it manually? I didn't get any messages from them about a change.
Manchu wrote: I would be interested in buying RRT stuff from disillusioned backers willing to sell for a price commensurate with what they think of the quality. That is, those who think it's crap please let me know how cheap you are willing to sell.
I may think the new Space Wolf Santa Logan on his Murderfangwolf bathtub sleigh looks like crap but if I got one for free I certainly wouldn't resell the model for chump change just because I personally hate it. Just because a seller doesn't like something at all doesn't mean there isn't someone else out there who does. I suspect the PT Barnum quote would be the best motto for those disillusioned backers looking to sell to use. In the end, the market will determine the final price, not the level of disillusionment.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But when I logged in, I saw "Your order is ready to ship!"
Ah, thanks. I'd have to remember my backerkit password and find the old email from them to access the site to check mine but it may not be worth it. It sounds like a global change maybe from them finally importing all the shipping info now that they are starting to work on implementing their shipping system at the last second despite being 9-10 months late.
warboss wrote: Just because a seller doesn't like something at all doesn't mean there isn't someone else out there who does.
Naturally. But I am not interested in rescuing a disillusioned backer's investment. I just want cheaper prices, starting at more than 25% below MSRP (as offered by online retailers). All other things being equal, folks who really hate the models might be more likely to sell in that price range than those who don't.
warboss wrote: Ah, thanks. I'd have to remember my backerkit password and find the old email from them to access the site to check mine but it may not be worth it. It sounds like a global change maybe from them finally importing all the shipping info now that they are starting to work on implementing their shipping system at the last second despite being 9-10 months late.
Yes, this is the problem when you use Microsoft Project and list a timeline item as a "dependency" than a parallel operation: not getting the flag to get shipping equipment ready until product is ready to ship!
Easy explination (Only if Palladium uses ANY type of scheduling software without breaking into a rash or just writing it down on a calendar...)
(Kevin is staying awake at nights thinking how to get this first wave out to stores without the backers knowing...)
(The two fan volunteers have unsuccessfully figured out how to knock small sprue pieces out while packing, due to all the flow joins, this is slowing things down)
warboss wrote: Just because a seller doesn't like something at all doesn't mean there isn't someone else out there who does.
Naturally. But I am not interested in rescuing a disillusioned backer's investment. I just want cheaper prices, starting at more than 25% below MSRP (as offered by online retailers). All other things being equal, folks who really hate the models might be more likely to sell in that price range than those who don't.
Not sure I understand there. There's a big difference between "rescuing a disillusioned backer's investment" and 25% below MSRP. If backers are wanting full profit, pre release, IMO that's insane. I sold a pledge last week for cost (well, a little below, once paypal took it's percentage). If I could provide the relevant safeguards, I'd sell my other one too for a similar price, but it being linked to my own account (which has 8 still unfulfilled projects) makes it harder to divest (the other one was a disposable account). But I'd be happy to sell it at cost, now, if I could.
Morgan Vening wrote: There's a big difference between "rescuing a disillusioned backer's investment" and 25% below MSRP.
Er, of course there is? I certainly didn't mean to equate them. In fact, my post specifically contrasts them -- I am not interested in the former because I can already do better than the latter. Now that said, buying out a BattleCry may still put me over 25% below MSRP. But the relevant concern for me is how far below market (25% off MSRP) I can get. I don't care whether a backer who wants to sell makes his pledge back.
Morgan Vening wrote: There's a big difference between "rescuing a disillusioned backer's investment" and 25% below MSRP.
Er, of course there is? I certainly didn't mean to equate them. In fact, my post specifically contrasts them -- I am not interested in the former because I can already do better than the latter. Now that said, buying out a BattleCry may still put me over 25% below MSRP. But the relevant concern for me is how far below market (25% off MSRP) I can get. I don't care whether a backer who wants to sell makes his pledge back.
Heh. Whereas for me, getting back my pledge amount is all I care about. I'm not interested in the speculative nature of the aftermarket. Don't care that some other Kickstarters had people paying 200-500%+ over the initial pledge. Just want back what I spent.
Morgan Vening wrote: There's a big difference between "rescuing a disillusioned backer's investment" and 25% below MSRP.
Er, of course there is? I certainly didn't mean to equate them. In fact, my post specifically contrasts them -- I am not interested in the former because I can already do better than the latter. Now that said, buying out a BattleCry may still put me over 25% below MSRP. But the relevant concern for me is how far below market (25% off MSRP) I can get. I don't care whether a backer who wants to sell makes his pledge back.
I agree. I am certainly anticipating the buyer's market that will exist very shortly, especially considering the echo chambers of disappointment that have caused observers to also wish to dump their pledge before receiving/playing with product.
Ages ago, I ran a bunch of numbers, comparing the updated MSRPs to the KS prices and the listed prices that a few retailers were selling wave one pre-orders for.
All told, it looks like Battle Cry boxes were sold at around 1/4 to 1/5 retail price, with some variance present in that some items (Rick, Roy, Miriya, etc) will not be available at retail.
So, depending on the supply and the demand, there is a lot of wiggle room for people to go with. Obviously, a backer who absolutely wants out entirely could sell their entire pledge at cost (give or take a little) and walk away. Selling piecemeal becomes a bit trickier.
Miniature Market seems to be selling pre-orders on the items for around 25-40% off MSRP, but the backers got such an amazing deal I could sell at 50% off MSRP and still come out ahead while undercutting the competition.
So then we're back to supply and demand. If the demand is huge, maybe I won't need to slash my prices. If the supply is immense, I might have to trim a bit just to keep competitive, etc, etc, etc.
Other factors will come into play like some shops offering free shipping on orders of a certain size, whereas I doubt many random netizens will be doing the same (though it wouldn't surprise me either). It might become a struggle to keep prices low while accounting for shipping on boxes that, while not heavy, will probably be a pretty good size once you get a couple of expansions in them, which might keep some of the markets reasonably local, or at least in country. Shipping to the US, for example, seems to get worse every year.
judgedoug wrote: I am certainly anticipating the buyer's market that will exist very shortly, especially considering the echo chambers of disappointment
Should be a fun ride for those of us who are still on board. Only danger is, folks who have swung so far to despair through delays may snap back to rabid enthusiasm once product makes it to their hands.
judgedoug wrote: I am certainly anticipating the buyer's market that will exist very shortly, especially considering the echo chambers of disappointment
Should be a fun ride for those of us who are still on board. Only danger is, folks who have swung so far to despair through delays may snap back to rabid enthusiasm once product makes it to their hands.
The biggest problem is if the buyer's market is too much in that favour, it can potentially have an impact on the strength/viability of the game as a whole. Normally, I'd just write that off as hyperbole, but as it stands, PB don't have the strongest of relationships with retailers/distributors. If those people are undercut significantly (because supply is outstripping demand), desire to devote shelf space is gonna slacken off, and without at least some impetus from the retail community, support for the game outside isolated groups (much like their RPG's apparently), is going to flounder. While I doubt the impact will be immediate enough, or strong enough, to affect Wave 2 (though it's not an impossibility, IMO), it may pull the plug on future generations, or alternate universes (I know several people want to see Rifts).
judgedoug wrote: I am certainly anticipating the buyer's market that will exist very shortly, especially considering the echo chambers of disappointment
Should be a fun ride for those of us who are still on board. Only danger is, folks who have swung so far to despair through delays may snap back to rabid enthusiasm once product makes it to their hands.
judgedoug wrote: I am certainly anticipating the buyer's market that will exist very shortly, especially considering the echo chambers of disappointment
Should be a fun ride for those of us who are still on board. Only danger is, folks who have swung so far to despair through delays may snap back to rabid enthusiasm once product makes it to their hands.
Where is the danger in that?!?
The danger for those of us who wish to capitalize upon the backers who have spent the last year calling the miniatures and game absolute gak. We can't get a pledge for pennies on the dollar from the masses of disappointed backers dumping their pledges as fast as they arrive if they decide that they in fact have done an about-face and discretely decide that the rules and minis are actually pretty good.
Figured I'd share here too. Something I did for fun.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm working on some Malcontents too
Senburu (Female only club that made the stingers)
Iron Ravens(Africa)
Steel Wind
Shroud(Southlands, North)
Crimson Ghosts(Mexico + Central America)
Burrowers (Paranka) (Southlands, Argentina)
Khyron's Fist (Southlands)
Quandolma(Africa)
Lyktauro(India)
Claimers(Australia/New Zealand, Female Only)
Seylos (Factory Satellite)
New Unity (Steel Wind Remnants)
judgedoug wrote: I am certainly anticipating the buyer's market that will exist very shortly, especially considering the echo chambers of disappointment
Should be a fun ride for those of us who are still on board. Only danger is, folks who have swung so far to despair through delays may snap back to rabid enthusiasm once product makes it to their hands.
Where is the danger in that?!?
The danger for those of us who wish to capitalize upon the backers who have spent the last year calling the miniatures and game absolute gak. We can't get a pledge for pennies on the dollar from the masses of disappointed backers dumping their pledges as fast as they arrive if they decide that they in fact have done an about-face and discretely decide that the rules and minis are actually pretty good.
That's what I figured, but...isn't that an overly cynical approach to take here?
Would the game and community as a whole be better served by more happy customers, no matter how they arrived there?
Well, Doug and I (and other backers still excited about the product) can't make people happy about the product. But we do stand to benefit from them being unhappy.
Sure, it would be nice if everyone who backed the KS was cheery about the product but you've read through some of this thread, right? Talk about overly cynical ...
Manchu wrote: Well, Doug and I (and other backers still excited about the product) can't make people happy about the product. But we do stand to benefit from them being unhappy.
Sure, it would be nice if everyone who backed the KS was cheery about the product but you've read through some of this thread, right? Talk about overly cynical ...
Botoru was Khyron's and Quadrono was Miriya's, not sure about Marino.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: Well, Doug and I (and other backers still excited about the product) can't make people happy about the product. But we do stand to benefit from them being unhappy.
Sure, it would be nice if everyone who backed the KS was cheery about the product but you've read through some of this thread, right? Talk about overly cynical ...
Honestly I was not excited for this project until very recently when the finished sprues were shown, I read the reaction of people playing at Gencon, and the pdf of the rulebook showed up. Now I'm quite looking forward to getting my pledge and trying out the rules and perhaps purchasing models from those who are still unhappy.
I thought you were referring specifically to these.
Senburu (Female only club that made the stingers)
Iron Ravens(Africa)
Steel Wind
Shroud(Southlands, North)
Crimson Ghosts(Mexico + Central America)
Burrowers (Paranka) (Southlands, Argentina)
Khyron's Fist (Southlands)
Quandolma(Africa)
Lyktauro(India)
Claimers(Australia/New Zealand, Female Only)
Seylos (Factory Satellite)
New Unity (Steel Wind Remnants)
Not much, mostly mentioned them as a whole and only once or twice. It focused on 2 or 3 factions working with Senburu and the need to shut down the faction making the stingers as they started sharing them with other groups.
Manchu wrote: Where do these bizarre zentraedi words come from? The novels?
The Quadronos are Millia's old unit, and you'll sometimes see her name rendered 'Millia Quadrono'. iirc, it was a unit composed exclusively of Queadlunn-Rau armor units.
I don't think that information is mentioned within the series, which means that it likely came from Macross source materials.
Thanks for the answers! My question was more basic, as in where do any of the Zentraedi words (aside from proper names) come from? I have not read the novels although I do own them.
well than that's your problem slacker. Get to reading.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok. so were the Quadronos the unit lead by Miriya specifically OR was it the forces led in all by Azonia? If the former, what was the name for the units lead by Azonia as a whole?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Azonia Laplamis was the highest-ranking female in the Zentraedi fleet. She had a superior attitude over everyone and a very clever, sly personality. She was a strong, capable fighter and a good combat strategist, but when in command had some trouble controlling her underlings. She was known to constantly argue with Khyron when he would disobey her orders, and she even used threats on his life to keep him in line. Azonia was initially called in to relieve Breetai's command when Dolza thought Breetai was failing in his mission to capture the SDF-1. After he was returned to his command, Azonia and her Quadrono Battalion stayed to help in the mission.
The superior females in their agile, deadly Queadlunn-Rau (female powered armour) were a great asset in the war, as they were the mecha most capable of standing up against the Valkyrie fighters. The Quadronos joined with Breetai and the SDF-1 against Dolza's main fleet. Khyron rescued her when her ship was disabled, and they fell in love while hiding out in Alaska and waiting for the right opportunity to attack. She helped in the unsuccessful plot to trade Minmei and Kyle for the SDF-1, and the more successful attack on Macross City when Khyron captured the protoculture cell and blew up the city. In that battle she faced off against her former ally, Miriya Parino, and seemed surprisingly almost equal to her in ability. Azonia went along with Khyron's change of plans to attack the SDF-1 rather than return to the Masters for reinforcements. Their cruiser was disabled by a final blast of the SDF-1's main gun, and the two died hand in hand as they rammed the ship into the damaged fortress.
Mike1975 wrote: well than that's your problem slacker. Get to reading.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok. so were the Quadronos the unit lead by Miriya specifically OR was it the forces led in all by Azonia? If the former, what was the name for the units lead by Azonia as a whole?
I *think* it was Millia's specific unit. But I'm not certain.
I notice Eumerin keeps posting about Milia rather than Miriya. Is the implication that the Zentraedi words (e.g., Quaedluun-Rau) are from Macross rather than RoboTech?
judgedoug wrote: Now I'm quite looking forward to getting my pledge and trying out the rules and perhaps purchasing models from those who are still unhappy.
I still don't think that's what you really should be hoping for, but hey, whatever!
Why not? It means those who want absolutely nothing to do with RRT recoup at least some of their expenditure and that those who want more RRT stuff can get it for lower than online retailer discount. That's an efficient market.
Do you mean we should all be hoping RRT becomes one of the most popular miniatures war game out there? I don't think that or anything even close was ever possible much less after a year of backers getting more and more worked up over PB's constant blunders and disingenuity.
I have no doubt that some who have moaned the loudest will flip back to being as enthusiastic as they were when the KS was being funded. That doesn't strike me as a good thing, given they are just as likely to flip back to debbie downers once they remember Wave 2 is yet to come or when novelty otherwise wears off of Wave 1, or TBH any number of other possibilities, such as a "I told you so" message from PB/Kevin in the face of an upswing in positive sentiment.
Manchu wrote: I notice Eumerin keeps posting about Milia rather than Miriya. Is the implication that the Zentraedi words (e.g., Quaedluun-Rau) are from Macross rather than RoboTech?
Apart from a few character name changes, Robotech defaults upon SDF Macross (and SDCSC and GCM) for background material not explicitly mentioned (see Robotech Art 1 and a variety of Macek interviews over the years).
Hence Valkyries still being called Valkyries in Robotech (and Defenders being called Defenders, and Regults being called Regults, explicity in the Robotech/English dialogue), the addition of the "Veritech" added to the Valkyrie, Spartas, AGACS, Logan, Alpha/Beta (Legioss/Tread) as a unifying element across the disparate for the human-designed transformable mecha. IIRC in Robotech there is some dialog either spoken by Azonia or Miriya about the Quadrono, I'd have to go back and check the dialogue. Probably around episode 12, 18, or 24.
Manchu wrote: Why not? It means those who want absolutely nothing to do with RRT recoup at least some of their expenditure and that those who want more RRT stuff can get it for lower than online retailer discount. That's an efficient market.
Do you mean we should all be hoping RRT becomes one of the most popular miniatures war game out there? I don't think that or anything even close was ever possible much less after a year of backers getting more and more worked up over PB's constant blunders and disingenuity.
I have no doubt that some who have moaned the loudest will flip back to being as enthusiastic as they were when the KS was being funded. That doesn't strike me as a good thing, given they are just as likely to flip back to debbie downers once they remember Wave 2 is yet to come or when novelty otherwise wears off of Wave 1, or TBH any number of other possibilities, such as a "I told you so" message from PB/Kevin in the face of an upswing in positive sentiment.
You're probably right there!
I'll tell you what though - once the Force Five RPG Tactics game gets Kickstartered, I'll be all in there, no matter what!
judgedoug wrote: IIRC in Robotech there is some dialog either spoken by Azonia or Miriya about the Quadrono, I'd have to go back and check the dialogue. Probably around episode 12, 18, or 24.
I'll take any excuse to watch specific episodes of RoboTech.
Alpharius wrote: once the Force Five RPG Tactics game gets Kickstartered, I'll be all in there, no matter what!
Same for me regarding Voltron. (NB: There was a Voltron-skinned Monsterpocalypse set a few years ago.)
Manchu wrote: I notice Eumerin keeps posting about Milia rather than Miriya. Is the implication that the Zentraedi words (e.g., Quaedluun-Rau) are from Macross rather than RoboTech?
With a few key exceptions (for instance, the definition of Protoculture), the lore for the Macross portion of Robotech is essentially identical to the SDF: Macross TV series. It's not until Southern Cross that they had to start introducing massive changes to the plotline and background lore. AFAIK, all Zentraedi wargear in Robotech has the same name as it does in Macross - albeit also with more colloquial names that refer to its purpose or function (for instance, "Female Power Armor"). Essentially, if the term was used for alien stuff in Macross, then the same term is probably used for the exact same thing in Robotech (notable exception, once again, for Protoculture).
This makes a lot of sense, btw. It meant that the storywriters could focus on the areas that needed to have changes (i.e. the Southern Cross and Mospeada sections, which needed to be rewritten to accommodate the new background and location), and save time by not changing the Macross background anymore than was absolutely needed for the new plot.
The human side of things is somewhat different as far as names are concerned. This is most obvious with the Destroids. Most of the Destroids have model names that were used in Macross... but the names have been shuffled around for some reason. For instance, a Spartan in Macross is the Destroid with two hands. A Spartan in Robotech is the Destroid that replaces its arms with massive missile pods.
The human side of things is somewhat different as far as names are concerned. This is most obvious with the Destroids. Most of the Destroids have model names that were used in Macross... but the names have been shuffled around for some reason. For instance, a Spartan in Macross is the Destroid with two hands. A Spartan in Robotech is the Destroid that replaces its arms with massive missile pods.
Those names were only used by Matchbox - due to the co-licensing agreement between Revell and Harmony Gold and are also non-canon. Revell was already releasing import Macross (and Orguss and Dougram etc) model kits in the USA. When Harmony Gold licensed Macross, they had to enter into a co-licensing agreement with Revell to utilize the designs in their marketing. One of the stipulations was that Harmony Gold had to include the "Robotech" name branding, which is where the name Robotech for the series came from. Revell had yet to release the Macross destroids (under it's "Robotech Defenders" model kit line, which, to add to brand confusion, had it's own comic series released by DC) but had already decided upon the names - Gladiator, Raidar X, Excalibur, Spartan, etc - which Matchbox then used for the Robotech toys. To make matters worse, the early Palladium RPG used the Matchbox toy names, further exacerbating the error. For example, Destroid Defenders are referred to as Destroid Defenders in the Robotech series dialogue, and not by the Revell/Matchbox name "Raidar X". Thankfully later editions of the Robotech RPG corrected this and the official Robotech infopedia from Harmony Gold also lists the correct Macross names (with a nota bene of "also known as" with the Revell/Matchbox names), but there still exists the Revell/Matchbox naming conventions amongst unaware fans but not in any official capacity (and thankfully it's not as pervasive as it was in the 90's)
Manchu wrote: (NB: There was a Voltron-skinned Monsterpocalypse set a few years ago.)
And it's a fun little set, although I wish they'd given you more units for each side so you could have a full in faction 15 and included a full size MonPoc map as well as the small Fleet of Doom themed map.
Ok here's what was posted on the ks in regards to the MA who quit and how things went down at GC. This was posted by Jorel for Gary. Looks like PB did go the cheap route to avoid paying for tables.
Originally GenCon organization was done for Palladium by a friend of Kevin's. He began the year doing it and found he couldn't do it, so Gary Miller aka ingexthefuryhunter1 on FotM stepped in to handle it. According to Gary he has 14 yrs experience organizing cons and working with them on the West coast. Gary had been helped in coordinating the event with NMI an had contacted Derek Gunter head of organizing GenCon several times. At that point and time Gary was only in charge of organizing RPGs and had no RRT games scheduled. Not even Phaze/Pat's.
To elaborate Gary talked to Gencon on getting Palladium there own room so as to properly showcase the companies systems but Palladium did not seem to want to pay like the other game companies at GenCon. According to Gary if Palladium went over more than 5 tables in the room it would have been cost the company as then Gencon would charge the company a room fee. Which is at least a thousand dollars. It would get them their own room, but it would cost them. Apparently the cost of a table in the Miniature gaming area was also a minimun of a thousand dollars. So Palladium went with the cheapest option to promote RRT, the free one and took the 5 table option. That room ended up being a mile walk from the booth. According to Gary those 5 tables were full almost the entire GenCon weekend, and according to Gary, Kevin and NMI did not frequent the RPG gaming room at all not even to drop off Prize Support for the MAs and their players. Gary said he even went out of his way to acquire a rectangular table to accommodate Phaze/Pats RRT games as all the tables in that room were round. Back to the preGenCon...
After this had all been arranged by Gary Miller for Palladium, he had a small heart attack in February of 2014. Because of his health issues he passed on the work of organizing to NMI. NMI took over and made one phone call to Derek Gunter who in turn called Gary and said, "Don't have that donkey-cave ever call me again." Even though Gary was sick he continued to coordinate. At this point he had never even talked to Kevin about GenCon, only NMI. When he finally talked to Kevin it was on a conference call with NMI and the other coordinators. From the sound of it Kevin demanded better communication of Gary and wanted accountability and emails to know how often he was trying to contact the GenCon organizers.
When GenCon rolled around Gary was still in communication with Derek Gunter. He went to board his flight and it was delayed something like 4 hrs. I think he said he got in at 8:30 on the Wed. As soon as the delay was announced he texted NMI that he was going to be late. To which NMI immediately called Kevin and blew gak out of proproportion. Instead of asking how he could help from this delay like getting Prize Support to the Wed. gamers. NMI never did that. Gary contacted Derek Gunter to make sure the badges needed to get into things were taken care of and Derek assured him they wouldn't even need to pick them up til the next morning. Gary then called Palladiums office and tried to relay this information to Kevin as NMI had called Kevin directly. After leaving the message with the office. his phone died. When he got to the convention center at 8:55 and plugged in his phone there was a nasty message from NMI claiming Kevin couldn't get thier badges and Kevin wasn't pleased. Gary later said Kevin admitted saying he was "Kevin the owner of Palladium" and they should have his badge to which they couldn't find them. Gary explained at that point to Kevin that the Badges were under the name "Megaversal Ambassadors" and he was named as the sponsor. Kevin never mentioned that word to the GenCon people as far as Gary is aware. On the Wed when he arrived he spoke to Derek Gunter to confirm that the badges were there and that indeed they did not need to get them til the next morning. Atfer NMI left him another offensive message, cursing at him and demanding Gary bring the badges and greet Kevin, "bringing flowers and roses" when he gets there in the morning as Kevin is not happy on the badges issue. even After Gary contacted Alex back at the office (cause he never had Kevin's #) and clarified what was happening in the AM and that they could get their badges then. Alex told him Gary had called and it was something to do with the badges which Kevin assumed was the same message Nmi had given him.
Gary got there at 6am on Thursday, got the badges, and starts working the RPG room. He swaps out a round table for the necessary rectangle one for the RRT game that was not in the original lineup he had planned, remember he was not brought in on that fiasco until closer to GenCon. After making sure the games were running and taking the tickets and such. Gary gets another call from NMI around 9am, telling him to come down to the Booth an meet Kevin. He walks the mile and gets there to find out the hall isn't open til 10 and he doesn't have the proper pass to gain early access. At about 9:40 NMI contacts him and tells him to meet them back at the RPG Gm Badge room. So he hustles there to meet them. I He meets them there and said every time he ever saw NMI there it was glued to Kevin's side. He never took time out to help out in the RPG gaming area, even though he was a Megaversal Ambassador. Every time Gary needed help with anything or needed Prize Support or whatever, he had to trek that mile to the booth to deal with Kevin and NMI.Which caused issues on Thursday night, as the booth closed at 6 p.m. And no one called Gary to inform him they where headed home did he need anything, So when Gary noticed he was down to low support for the last game, He went to get it and found it closed, He then called NMI who had already left for the day, having got there at 9 a.m, So gary did what any honest person would do and told the room that he he couldnt get prize support from the company and to please collect any names and emails from those effected and they would be able to get them picked up at the booth in the A.M.,
All NMI really even was asked to do was help get Prize Support to people and Kevin blamed Gary for the dropped ball on the Wed gamers when his flight was delayed. There was no communication between the people at the booth and the game room the rest of that Thursday.
On Saturday Gary went to the booth around noon to pick up more Prize Support. He later found out that Kevin or NMI had already been giving Prize Support to the Freelancers working games under Gary in the game room without Gary knowing because the booth had heard they where not getting prize support, can some one say WED games.
In order to do the Prize Support Gary had come up with a system on his tablet where he went around 5-10 minutes before the game ended and did a small interview with the table of player before giving them all Prize Support. He would fill out a survey for every table and save it and them some time. On Sunday NMI called him again freaking out, claiming NMI had tons of paper surveys they printed out that gary needed to be filling out. Instead of asking Gary his plans they all made assumptions and expected various results. Sunday ran pretty smoothly and Gary got on his flight home.
When Gary got there he was met with an email from NMI about how he, Gary was the problem and how he could fix HIS communication problems. He contacted the one other MA coordinator and told that guy he was considering quiting. That guy called Kevin and told Kevin he thought Gary was a valuable asset and would be a huge loss. Kevin supposedly said that he didn't want someone with Gary's issues with communication representing them any more, and wants him to step down. So Gary quit.
In regards to Robotech RPG Tactics Gary wanted us to know that he thought it would have served Palladium just as well to actually have one of the 3 game boxes in the Gaming Room where all those people could see it and motivate people that payed to actually play the RRT game Phaze/Pat was running as they were just as likely future customers as anyone wandering past the booth. Carmen Ballaire was given a ton of the RRT miniatures to run his own game he was promoting that wasn't RRT or even a Palladium product. It was some mech board game that utilized cards to power up mechs, according to Gary. As a result of all the painted pieces behind glass that weren't being used and the demo games alongside Carmens game that left Phaze/Pat with only a few game pieces to run his games in the RPG game room. A lot less than he had intented for his map terrain that showed in many peoples words a hell of a lot better than the one at the booth.
Cypher-xv wrote: From the sound of it Kevin demanded better communication of Gary and wanted accountability and emails to know how often he was trying to contact the GenCon organizers.
Wow, just wow. This bit really stuck out for me. Dude's a volunteer and he's the one organising the Gencon fair for them? And Kevin has the gall to go demand ---- from him while not helping in any way at all? Wtf man.
Alpharius wrote: This "NMI" character doesn't seem to ever be someone you'd like to meet/have working with you/etc.
Is there some sort of summary somewhere of just who he is and what he does?
He's the lead MOD over on the PB forums. He'll warn or ban you if your critical of PB or Kevin. In fact before you can make your first post he screens it. One person got banned before even making it onto the boards. If a thread gets heated he'll intervene by closing the thread only after the pro PB side has had their say or the last word. On FB he goes around harassing people who are critical of PB and Kevin. In one instance he even insulted one poster by making a sexual reference to someone's wife. He eventually apologized. Before he did I and a few others called him out on it. He also went on the ND FB page and began trolling them asking if why aren't they promoting RRT. Just this month alone he banned several critical members from their forums. When I say critical I mean well thought out complaints not being belegerant. Kevin is aware of all this and NMI runs the board the way Kevin wants it. It's my understanding that he's unemployed most of the time and he's always complaining about his life. I can't confirm the last part I was only told by someone close to him.
I almost forgot he also got banned from wiki because of his constant trolling there.
To be fair, while Kevin and NMI sound like gak bags, I didnt get the impression that Gary was on top of things communication wise either. Reading all that, it seems like there were a lot of points in that clusterfeth that would/could/should have been avoided through some proper prior planning, which as I understand it falls on Gary as he was the one hired to coordinate everything.
I wonder if that is Kevin's way of sticking up for Carmen. The models really did not look good and it needed explaining one way or another. I really don't think Kevin is the terrible human being he is often made out to be, especially ITT. He strikes me as socially awkward, which is unsurprising for a professional RPG designer especially from his era. His word choice, like his larger PR judgment, does not evidence a sophisticated understanding/anticipation of other people's feelings but it also does not at least IMO evidence malice.
I thought it was supposed to fall on PB since I don't know it's kinda their job. While it does seem Gary couldn't catch a break, why would Kevin leave it to a fan friend? It's his company with six other guys he can't do it himself? Befor GC it's all he talked about, how busy he was with preparing for it yet he could organize his own games to be played? Come on now.
Personally, I have never founded and run a small RPG publisher for any amount of time much less 33 years. I can't speak about what goes into it or how it should be done. Speaking only as a customer, I was not impressed by PB's presentation at GenCon but OTOH it was about the same as any other RPG publisher there excluding Paizo (WotC did not have a booth in the dealer hall). So I am thinking of Chaosium, Green Ronin, etc. What really left PB in the dust, along with all the non-Paizo RPG publishers, were the war gaming company booths -- and not just companies like PP. To use a very relevant comparison, Soda Pop's booth looked great and seemed to be constantly busy with demos and shoppers and onlookers.
PB is really from another era and unquestionably stuck there. Imagine if your grandpa used KS to fund some project on the advice of someone your age. How do you think that would go, especially after the younger person bailed? Grandpa would default to what he's been stubbornly doing for the last 33 years.
One main difference is that many of these awesome wargaming booths who generated huge buzz for their games (Sodapop/NinjaD, Dark Age/CMON, Dropzone, Spartan, etc) is that they all know what they're doing, and have adapted with the times.
They're all companies with experience from other major companies (for example, there's a bit of ex-privateer talent at Soda/ND, and at Cmon), while Spartan's been learning for the last number of years and recently expanded. Dropzone's guy is ex-spartan, and hit a real niche.
It's very different from grognard RPG days. Those days are dead, and it's that kind of mentality that's killing PB and companies like DP9 with their abysmal Heavy gear showing and decisions.
The way of the future is to be more like popular media. Design decisions and PR decisions modelled after for example, video game companies, making full use of both groundswell at cons and the internet are the path to success, as is the rigorous design of your physical product and a scientific approach to rules design.
That's why Fantasy Flight is a giant that hits home runs with every release, and why GW does not. Just look at the huge success Infinity has been steadily having to see that it's no accident.
Sorry grandpa = PB, not just Kevin. But that's where the hermit kingdom analogy comes in. I have a hard time believing a little company like PB is not an echo chamber (especially given what they have published over the years) and I think it's also clear most of those echoes are of Kevin's voice.
No, they have not adapted to the times -- they are the product of THIS era. Give it three or four decades. Also FFG has its share of misses but they do not linger on them (and dont' have to) like other companies.
I agree with the rest of your post, Killionaire. You cannot sell games like it's 1981. Just look at ADB, if you've even heard of it.
Indeed. It has been a bit of a wild ride regarding general thread emotion (if you can call it that). The first hundred or so pages are mostly filled with elation and cautious optimism but the next hundred seem to mirror the 5 stages of grief more culminating with the acceptance during the gencon unboxing. The inflection point for me personally was the Max and Miriya debacle prior to Gencon 2013 where I realized that palladium can indeed screw this up and kick the golden goose. Eh, in the end, I'll EVENTUALLY likely sometime in 2015 have all my robotech models for the first time ever.
chaos0xomega wrote: To be fair, while Kevin and NMI sound like gak bags, I didnt get the impression that Gary was on top of things communication wise either. Reading all that, it seems like there were a lot of points in that clusterfeth that would/could/should have been avoided through some proper prior planning, which as I understand it falls on Gary as he was the one hired to coordinate everything.
So you would say the folks selling those miniatures are experts in miniature quality?
I would say they are not new to selling miniatures and not inexperienced at that. After all, doing it for about 25 years is almost as long as GW. Do you disagree?
After MYTH? Unfortunately, yes. As I understand it, MCG had experience in making metal miniatures, but their inexperience with plastic miniature projects led to the current delay.
Metal miniatures are made domestically, while plastic ones are made overseas. Overseas, you have issues that are not local: foreign language and culture, shipping, customs, etc.
Sining wrote: There's nothing wrong with saying a paintjob is horrible if it is although I'll agree it's really PBs responsibility to make sure there are fairly decently painted minis on their demo tables.
Absolutely. In the end, PB selected these people to represent PB, so their actions reflect on PB. It's PB's responsibility to properly plan a project so that they have the right people to paint the demo figures -- and they chose the wrong people. A professional painting service would presumably have better results, and PB should have managed to project so that would happen. If this was the only problem PB had, we'd probably forgive them, but it's symptomatic of a poorly run project.
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Swabby wrote: Plastic minis could be made domestically as well.
You've got to be kidding me.
The cost of plastic manufacturing of miniatures domestically is *much* more expensive than overseas. Backers won't go for it. I'd *really* like to see the numbers of how much domestic plastics cost.
Better yet, *You* tell these miniatures companies to make plastic domestically and show *them* the numbers. Then we'd get our miniatures faster!
We have no idea how much backers would be willing to pay for RRT metal minis though considering there are no RRT metal minis. It might well have been that RRT would still have been funded with metal minis instead of plastic ones, especially considering how fanatical Robotech lovers seem to be. Same for PB people
Cypher-xv wrote: I thought it was supposed to fall on PB since I don't know it's kinda their job. While it does seem Gary couldn't catch a break, why would Kevin leave it to a fan friend? It's his company with six other guys he can't do it himself? Befor GC it's all he talked about, how busy he was with preparing for it yet he could organize his own games to be played? Come on now.
Well, this *is* the same KS who left his accounting to a "friend" who embezzled whatever amount of collectibles from KS (y'know, because Star Wars toys are company property) over four years or whatever.
As for grandpa Grenadier, Ral Partha, and RAFM are the old school miniature companies I remember from 20+ years back. First two are gone, and RAFM, unfortunately, isn't doing so well. Two or so of their KS weren't funded, and their succeeding ones were Cthulhu-based (something like that). Grandpa Chaosium's KS projects haven't gone well, although I assume they were on the ambitious side (seemed like a lot of stuff made by other parties). Sooner or later, Panda manufacturing is going to make *all* our stuff.
I think the closest we're going to see of a domestically produced project for a miniatures game of a large scale would be GameZone's HeroQuest, domestically produced resin.
Swabby wrote: Plastic minis could be made domestically as well.
This. The fact that they haven't is by choice.
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Manchu wrote: The comments at the end of the vid are a bit disheartening but the model still turned out looking great.
Agreed. Hopefully the plastic production ones turn out similar. I am quite fond of the Queadluun-Rau.
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Sining wrote: We have no idea how much backers would be willing to pay for RRT metal minis though considering there are no RRT metal minis. It might well have been that RRT would still have been funded with metal minis instead of plastic ones, especially considering how fanatical Robotech lovers seem to be. Same for PB people
Or resin ones.
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Manchu wrote: The Max and Miriya I bought at GenCon were metal.
Unfortunately, I can't buy them from over here. And they didn't offer them on the KS either.
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ced1106 wrote: I think the closest we're going to see of a domestically produced project for a miniatures game of a large scale would be GameZone's HeroQuest, domestically produced resin.
Or All Quiet on the Martian Front, as Manchu said. Or KS made with Renedra Or Reaper Bones,
ced1106 wrote: I think the closest we're going to see of a domestically produced project for a miniatures game of a large scale would be GameZone's HeroQuest
Again, the All Quiet on the Martian Front miniatures are plastic and are manufactured in the US.
Albertorius wrote: Hopefully the plastic production ones turn out similar.
I hope they turn out better. The Painting Clinic guy said it took him three days to get the mini ready for painting because the resin casting was so bad. He recommended not buying Max and Miriya in resin and just waiting for the plastic models.
Manchu wrote: I hope they turn out better. The Painting Clinic guy said it took him three days to get the mini ready for painting because the resin casting was so bad. He recommended not buying Max and Miriya in resin and just waiting for the plastic models.
The day has finally arrived: We have begun shipping Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to backers!
The first few lucky backers may have already received their automated emails with tracking numbers. The rest will receive theirs when they ship out. This will be a lengthy process, however. We can only ship what we have, so inevitably shipments will be stretched out over the following weeks as more and more product arrives from China. But rest assured, the process has begun and Wave One rewards will begin arriving on backers’ doorsteps next week.
We got confirmation this morning that Container #2 was packed and had been trucked to the port in China today. Container #3 is scheduled to complete at the end of next week. With those two containers in our warehouse in a few weeks, we’ll have every Wave One item in quantity, and shipping will speed up considerably.
Meanwhile...
Here’s Matthew Clements, one of our writers, standing with most of the copies of the main box game we got in the first container. (We got a bunch of expansion packs, too.)
And here’s a sight we hope not to see with any more containers in the future.
Besides all that, we have been working away on Wave Two, among other things. Jeff and I had a long talk with Ninja Kai yesterday, finishing our review of the Wave Two spec sheet. We’ll continue going over the renders and engineering issues soon, but not for the next few days. That’s because first, the Ninja Division folks are at PAX starting today, but then next week, Ninja John and I will be flying to China. We’ll be visiting factories to see the manufacturing process, as well as meeting with the engineering team to go over renders of the parts and sprue layouts.
Because I’ll be in China next week, there won’t be a new Update until the week after. However, Jeff will still be in the office, answering emails and shipping out Wave One with the rest of the guys. Until then, I hope those of you in the USA have a great Labor Day holiday weekend. I intend to spend mine sleeping as much as possible until my flight on Monday morning, and hopefully getting a head start adjusting to a 12 hour time difference.
so from the sounds of it very protracted shipping container 2 is 3-4 weeks at least away counting waiting for a ship, ship travel, customs, road travel to palladium and container 3 at least a 5-6 weeks away, and I bet they alctually need stuff in container 3 for most peoples orders. But on the other hand they do have stuff in the warehouse which is something some people never really believed would happen
Max has always been metal. The first round of Miriya models was in resin, the later ones they made were in metal.
I may have that backwards, but I'm pretty sure it's right, as I recall some concern over a metal mini that size. In that you could probably bludgeon someone to death with it.
People in the KS comments are trying to estimate the quantity they are shipping by counting boxes per pallet and pallets shown. Even the most generous math doesn't add up much more than a thousand boxes so I'm hoping they have more than they showed in just that photo.
Regardless, am I wrong to think that saying "two containers in our warehouse in a few weeks" is really optimistic? Just because your container is loaded onto a ship doesnt mean it's leaving any time soon. Those beasts don't move until they are fully loaded, then add a couple weeks for transit and a week or so for customs, and you're already at a 'few weeks' before they even ship to you from the port. Maybe i'm being too pessimistic and they have given us a reasonable date for once?
On the bright side that youtube video of the models has me actually feeling decent about what we're getting. Just about every time they post a photo of a painted mini, I get worried, and whenever I see raw pics of the models on sprue or recently assembled, i get happy again. The part count is ridiculous, yes, but at least they actually look like they have potential.
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Grenadier, Ral Partha, and RAFM are the old school miniature companies I remember from 20+ years back. First two are gone, and RAFM, unfortunately, isn't doing so well. Two or so of their 
