I'm on the fence about starting a new Army and was very curious about Tyranids. Please be honest with your opinions. I would like to hear directly from the new owners of the Codex.
people keep waiting for someone to pull a diamond out of this. Its not there sure nids can be annoying but again without acces to +toughness and 1 creature with a 2+ armor save, not to mention not a single wound increase,
Where do you plan on finding it? In all the melee additions? Cool tail brah ill shoot you before you use it
My intent for asking is that I want to read legit reviews. I want to hear directly from the owners of the book not people who are criticizing it before it even went on sale.
Johnnytorrance wrote: My intent for asking is that I want to read legit reviews. I want to hear directly from the owners of the book not people who are criticizing it before it even went on sale.
Is it asking much?
I agree with you, but people like me have seen direct quotes from the book now. There are too many units that got worse or didn't improve.
I still of the opinion that it is to early to tell. Right now anyone who says "This might work" gets drowen out by those who are unhappy not even looking at whatever positive thing is brought up.
Now I am a Marine Player mostly [the only one I dont play at this time is BT] and I see some things that worry me about fighting bugs.
The one Nid player in our group only has once compaint at the moment. We usaly play 2k games and was struggling to reach 2k and now I might be harder to reach 2k.
Johnnytorrance wrote: My intent for asking is that I want to read legit reviews. I want to hear directly from the owners of the book not people who are criticizing it before it even went on sale.
HQ Choices Hive Tyrant: -5 PPM; +1BS; Loses BRB powers; lost 2+ armor save option; loses starting Lashwhip/Bonesword (this upgrade now costs 20 points I think)
SwarmLord: +5 PPM; +1BS; +1 Mastery Level -1 psychic power; Loses BRB Powers; no longer forces rerolls of successful ++ saves
Tervigon: +35 PPM; +1 I; -2 Powers; Loses BRB Powers; no longer shares AG/TS; kills larger area of gaunts; spawns gaunts no longer move or charge
Tyranid Prime: +45 PPM
Deathleaper: now HQ from Elites; -10 PPM; gain Infiltrate; Fleshhooks lose Rending
Old One Eye: now HQ from HS; -40 PPM; +1I
Elite Choices Hive Guard: +5 PPM; -1BS
Lictor: -15 PPM; gain Infiltrate
Pyrovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A; No more Spores
Venomthrope: -10 PPM; Gains Shroud instead of default 5+c save; No more Spores
Zoanthrope: -10 PPM; Mastery Level 2; Loses BRB powers; No more Spores; Now Brotherhood of Psykers (not sure if this is a gain or loss, honestly; makes the whole unit very "all or nothing")
Troop Choices Tyranid Warriors: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
Genestealers: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
--Broodlord: +/- 0 PPM; Single default power (positive or negative is up for debate I suppose)
Termagants: -1 PPM; can mix weapon types within a unit; No more Spores; cost of TS/AG increased
Hormagaunts: -1 PPM; No more Spores; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses; cost of TS/AG increased
Ripper Swarms: +3 PPM; No longer guaranteed self destruct out of Synapse
Fast Attack Shrikes: +/- 0 PPM
Harpy: -25 PPM; +1W, A
Gargoyles: +/- 0 PPM
Sky Slasher Swarms: +3 PPM
Raveners: +/- 0 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWsSTs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Spore Mine Clusters: -5 PPM
Heavy Support Carnifex: -40 PPM, +1I; -1A; No more Spores
Biovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A
Trygon: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Trygon Prime: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Mawloc: -30 PPM; better From Below rule
Tyranofex: -75! PPM; +1I
Biomorphs -General-
Adrenal Glands: Grants Fleet along with Furious Charge
Toxin Sacs: No changes
Regeneration: Regain a wound on a 4+ instead of 6(I believe?)
-Melee-
Scything Talons: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; AP6 (lolz); No longer reroll 1s/misses
Rending Claws: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; AP5
Crushing Claws: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; No longer forces I1 for MCs; S+1; Armorbane; AP2 for non MCs; Lost D3 bonus attacks
-Ranged-
Devourer: No longer causes -1 to Ld
edit 1: Updated Swarmlord to +1ML, -1 power known
edit 2: Updated for lack of Spores
edit 3: Points adjustments and effects of some biomorphs.
Knock yourself out. The huge majority of changes from the 5th edition 'dex to the 6th edition codex, all verified by actual scanned images of the released codex.
Anpu42 wrote: I still of the opinion that it is to early to tell. Right now anyone who says "This might work" gets drowen out by those who are unhappy not even looking at whatever positive thing is brought up.
Now I am a Marine Player mostly [the only one I dont play at this time is BT] and I see some things that worry me about fighting bugs.
The one Nid player in our group only has once compaint at the moment. We usaly play 2k games and was struggling to reach 2k and now I might be harder to reach 2k.
I consider myself a top notch player. I have a solid record across 5 edition of 40k with every army I've played with, and have placed well in almost every tournament I've participated in. I've read every piece of 40k rules over the last 15 years and have the vast majority of it memorized. I've played tyranids since 1998.
I can't see how to make them work at the moment, but I have some hope that someone will come up with some cracked combo that will let them compete. Although, I have little hope of them standing against the current best, and they will likely be in the bottom third of the power "tier" (above orks, blood angels and sisters I suppose, but little else). The only reason I even have a shred of hope at the moment is because I honestly did not see the demons come out of left field with their crazy book+divination+screamstar combo, so I suppose there's remote chance I could be caught off-guard again, but if it does happen for nids....it's going to be something REALLY REALLY weird and completely off the wall, because all of the traditional and conventional tactics are largely dead.
I'm liking the haruspex regen for wounds quite a bit, IF it can get to combat. But we lost ymgarl and genestealers, and hive guard one of our most solid choices lost a bs point.. hmmm I guess gw wants tau and eldar to win forever.
Im not trolling i have the codex right here. The regen on any MC is usless because it still only has 4-6 wounds and a 3+ armor save.
It will be shot dead before it can regen
Automatically Appended Next Post: The only thing i can come up with ATM is mawloc lictor auto locking a scatter, but still I have to roll both fro reserve.......
I picked up the new book for my brother today and we looked through the book and even did some toying around with the lists. It's still too early to give a final verdict, but my tentative judgement is this: The book has horrid internal balance, but is going to have a couple solid builds. All in all I think it might suffer from the Codex: Helldrake problem of having a ton of crap, but a few spammable gems. Again, this is all first-look speculation, but I think that the Tyranids might be able to stand up to Eldar with some effort. Tau, however, I think will likely have an easy time dealing with the bugs. Grav Gun biker spam will also be nasty against 'nids.
Here are a few quick thoughts on the new stuff (I'm not going to cover everything here, just a few things):
HQ -Dakka Flyrants got a points reduction, clocking in at 230pts total for the critter and two brainleech devourers. They also got BS4 which will do wonders for all that shooting. However they (and all other psykers) lose access to the BRB powers, which is no fun. The other HQs don't seem like much special, though I haven't read Deathleaper's stuff, admittedly. Tervigons got nerfed hard...it was to be expected.
Troops Termagants and Hormagaunts got dropped by a point. Scything Talons got hit with the nerfbat so I don't think Hormagants are worth it, but the point reduction helps when filling out your troops with Termagants. Warriors are still lacklustre, and Rippers...we don't talk about Rippers.
Elites This used to be one of the best spots, but now it's rather...meh. Hive Guard were dropped to BS3 and got a 5pt/model increase...because why not? Venomthropes have an interesting effect, but since it's applied to models, rather than units, you have to bunch your stuff around the 'thropes...which might not always be good. Zoanthropes got 10pts cheaper and seem just as good (other than being restricted to Tyranid powers only) as they used to be--might be good for some extra synapse. The Haruspex has an underwhelming statline for a purely CC monster (WS3/A3? Really?) and it's not worth the points...which is a pity 'cause I think it's a cute lil' guy.
Fast Attack Pretty much everything here seemed mediocre...but then I took a good look at the Hive Crone. The flying beastie gets 4 Haywire missiles, a S6/AP4 template, and S8 Vector Strike for a few points more than a bare LRBT. These guys could do a lot of damage to flyers/vehicles and, once they run out of big targets, can melt infantry if there's nothing better to do. Unfortunately they have a T5, W5 profile with a 4+ armour save...so they will go down fast. Still, I think multiple Crones in an army led by two Flyrants can create for a nasty situation in the skies. I *think* these guys are going to become auto-includes, but I also think that there's a good chance I'll be proven wrong.
Heavy Support Trygons/Primes got a slight points decrease and I think the Primes are a decent choice for a reasonably durable synapse in a codex where the synapse creatures seem underwhelming, though a few zoanthropes might do a better job. I heard bad things about the Exocrine in the rumour discussions but I think this beastie is actually really solid. 6 S7/AP2 attacks or a single S7/AP2 Large Blast is impressive and when the critter stands still he's BS4--the 6-attack mode in particular strikes me as something which could seriously ruin somebody's day. Unfortunately the range of the thing is only 24", and the weapon gets much less effective if he's BS3 from moving around.
And then there's the Carnifex. The beautiful Carnifex. They got a 40 point reduction. Now a 'fex loaded out with 2 brainleech devourers is only 150pts--I think that's fairly reasonable for 12 twin-linked S6 shots. And you can take them in broods if you really love dakka (though diminishing returns is likely sure to kick in...). I think these guys have the potential to be devastating and help for saturating the board with targets.
Just my general, first thoughts. We'll see how things go in practice.
Regarding Venomthropes and shrouded, according to the rulebook, only a single model needs to have shrouded in order to bestow it to an entire unit.
So you only need to have one model in the Venomthrope's 6'' (iirc) bubble to give its whole unit the rule. Thus, you could reliably give at least two entire units the special rule with one single venomthrope.
Regarding the Crone, it's T5 AP4 armor is really, really ass. But I actually like its template weapon. The only problem with it is that it's not torrent, but unlike many people I prefer it to be AP4.
It's an inferior Heldrake, but the Heldrake is an abomination that never should have existed in its current form. A S6 Ap3 torrent turret-flamer on an AV12 flyer is stupid.
I did not know that about Shrouded, I'll have to consider Venomthropes again.
I don't think a single Crone is ever going to do anything. But if you're taking 2-3 and 2 Flyrants I think most enemies are going to start having a problem.
I just leafed through the Codex, and in my impression it's like the Chaos one: take the terrible, terrible previous book, make some random changes, take out whatever was passably decent before, add flyer and oval base monster, call it a day.
Cruddace or whoever must have scribbled this gak on his toilet break while working full time on the next Codex: Vendettas.
BlaxicanX wrote: It's an inferior Heldrake, but the Heldrake is an abomination that never should have existed in its current form. A S6 Ap3 torrent turret-flamer on an AV12 flyer is stupid.
I dont know why you think the Crone is inferior to the hell drake AT ALL because the best thing about the hell drake is the str 7 Vector strike:
Which a crone does at str8!
3 Crones auto includes ability to fight flyers, flamer units, and vector strike another at str8.
My problem is with how easy it is to kill, Quad gun will gun down 1 per turn and Since the HT can no longer get IA its not like i want them in combat vs anything either.
The 150 fexs though sound very spammable especcialy since only 1 unit can come from a Trygons tunnel, 1 unit of 3 SEXY FEXY's
- Hive Tyrants: Flying got cheaper. However, without iron arm, endurance, or leech life. these are easily dealt with. A foot slogging Tyrant is no longer an option as armoured shell is gone that would allow a 2+ save. And again no biomancy powers to help keep them from getting wrecked before they can get anywhere. The lash whip bone sword combo is less a wash because it used to cause opponents to be Initiative 1 but grants +3 initiative.
- Swarm Lord: more expensive and lost biomancy and the ability to make his opponent reroll their invulnerable saves. Again, with a 3+ armour save he would get wrecked before he got anywhere. Can no longer get eternal warrior in way, shape or form. With all of the insta-death wepons out there, he may not be viable anymore.
- Tyrant guard: being able to take bone sword/ lash whip now looks a bit appealing. However, you will need three of them to protect your Swarmie/Foot sloggin Tyrant and they will be saoking up fire. Hard to justify upgrading meat shields.
-Tervigon: Got pwned by the nerf bat. Points increase, no biomancy, no automatic catalyst (feel no pain), causes more damage to termagaunts, does not share biomorphs with gaunts, only gets one psychic power now, still only a 3+ save with no invulnerable save. Can only be taken as a troop now if a full 30 model termagaunt squad is taken
Tyranid Prime: increse in points. 3 wounds, T5, 4+ save. shares BS and WS with warriors. Not seeing him worth points cost.
Old one eye: Some cool rules and a tough model. However, you need all the synapse you can get with the new Instinctive behaviour rules and this guy does not provide it.
Needless to say I would rather play my old as dirt Ork Codex than this new Dex. Bye bye bugs time to go on the shelf until 7th edition.
Bloodynecronight wrote: I dont know why you think the Crone is inferior to the hell drake AT ALL because the best thing about the hell drake is the str 7 Vector strike:
Yes, that's clearly the best thing about the Heldrake. It's not its survivability and certainly not its AP3 torrent flamer that can fire in any direction.
Seems like a fun codex to be totally honest. It may not be as competitive as the Tau/Eldar/Overpowered Cheesedex. But nothing should be as powerful as those things anyway.
Bloodynecronight wrote: I dont know why you think the Crone is inferior to the hell drake AT ALL because the best thing about the hell drake is the str 7 Vector strike:
Which a crone does at str8!
The best thing about Heldrakes is how durable they are, with 12/12/10 AV, 3 Hull Points, 5+ invuln and IWND they are one of the toughest Flyers in the game to take down. The second best thing is their AP 3 Schrödinger's Torrent Flamer, the third best thing is their their Vector Strike.
1. At T5 with a 4+ save, a Hive Crone is squished by 2 Quad Guns, it takes 5 to shoot down a Heldrake.
2. with AP 4 and lacking Torrent, the Drool Cannon is much worse than a Baleflamer
3. Yes, a Crone is better at Vector Striking
So if you think being very fragile, having a much worse template weapon, having to take grounding tests, being slower and having to deal with Instinctive Behaviour are worth +1 Strength to Vector Strikes and Tantaclids, sure, they're not inferior at all.
12 TL S6 shots for 150 points?! That sounds pretty awesome right there. I'd take two Carnifexs (carnifi?) for that at 300 points.
Toss in huge hordes of termagants, a couple flyrants, maybe a zoanthrope or two and a Hive Crone.
welshhoppo wrote: Seems like a fun codex to be totally honest. It may not be as competitive as the Tau/Eldar/Overpowered Cheesedex. But nothing should be as powerful as those things anyway.
I fail to see how less units, less options, less chance of winning = fun.
welshhoppo wrote: Seems like a fun codex to be totally honest. It may not be as competitive as the Tau/Eldar/Overpowered Cheesedex. But nothing should be as powerful as those things anyway.
I fail to see how less units, less options, less chance of winning = fun.
I apologise, I meant fun in the Dwarf Fortress type of way.
Does everybody here play WAAC? Does everyone here play only tournament settings and only the most optimized and maximized lists? If that's the case then go ahead and be upset about the book. If you play this game for the fun and flavor of the army then this book still provides you with some cool options to have fun.
Icculus wrote: Does everybody here play WAAC? Does everyone here play only tournament settings and only the most optimized and maximized lists? If that's the case then go ahead and be upset about the book. If you play this game for the fun and flavor of the army then this book still provides you with some cool options to have fun.
Icculus wrote: If you play this game for the fun and flavor of the army then this book still provides you with some cool options to have fun.
I guess people's problem is that there are no such thing in the codex like "cool options". You have mediocre options at best and cheap grubs to boot. Like, give me only one thing that is a "cool option"... Well, maybe the kamikaze!Mawlock is hilarious but I can't see anything else.
Icculus wrote: Does everybody here play WAAC? Does everyone here play only tournament settings and only the most optimized and maximized lists? If that's the case then go ahead and be upset about the book. If you play this game for the fun and flavor of the army then this book still provides you with some cool options to have fun.
I wonder about that sometimes myself.
There are about 30 people where I play, and none of them are WAAC. Most of us are sad older men who play with toys on tuesdays.
It's mediocre. It has some good stuff but is overall lacking and has removed many of the good aspects of the previous codex in favour of inferior ones. It shows the grave writing limitations that seem to plague Games Workshop.
Johnnytorrance wrote: The one with the haters spouting crap and the one that starts a discussion on page 80 before anyone knew what was even in the codex?
"Haters"
"Spouting scrap"
Ah yes, the magnificent world of crappy ad-homien attacks, it's even funnier when you look into and realise everything that everyone said was based around leaked pages from the codex and information we knew to be true, but no addressing people's points is too hard. Calling them haters is easier. You could have just spammed WAAC and acted like any form of competitive play is a bad thing.
Icculus wrote: Does everybody here play WAAC? Does everyone here play only tournament settings and only the most optimized and maximized lists? If that's the case then go ahead and be upset about the book. If you play this game for the fun and flavor of the army then this book still provides you with some cool options to have fun.
I wonder about that sometimes myself.
There are about 30 people where I play, and none of them are WAAC. Most of us are sad older men who play with toys on tuesdays.
Icculus wrote: Does everybody here play WAAC? Does everyone here play only tournament settings and only the most optimized and maximized lists? If that's the case then go ahead and be upset about the book. If you play this game for the fun and flavor of the army then this book still provides you with some cool options to have fun.
I'm very far from a tournament player. Never even been in one. I don't power game. Heck, I've been playing SOB even whey they kinda suck...and I play a canoness on top of that. But, I can still win occasionally.
Gaky armies aren't fun to play and either are cut and paste internet spam lists.
Icculus wrote: Does everybody here play WAAC? Does everyone here play only tournament settings and only the most optimized and maximized lists? If that's the case then go ahead and be upset about the book. If you play this game for the fun and flavor of the army then this book still provides you with some cool options to have fun.
I play with a small circle of friends who, between us, own models for almost every army at this point. Our local 'meta' is weak compared to the tournament meta. Yet we still run into situations regularly where people are threatening not to play against other people's lists, because even for us the power level between armies can be so imbalanced that it's not fun losing regularly.
The Chaos Marine codex is a particular sticking point for us right now because so, so many builds in it are terrible, and we don't own any helldrakes (and never will). Chaos Marines end up playing like lackluster loyalists with no fun toys. It's all too easy, for example, for our Guard player to accidentally put together army lists that our Chaos army practically can't beat. They don't see much table time as a result.
The point of my little anecdote is that even for non-WAAC players just hanging out with friends, it's nice when you feel like your matches are fair, especially if you can do it without debating whether one person should be allowed to use the perfectly legal models they bought because they're too powerful. When a codex is crammed with underpowered and disappointing units, it's just not very fun to play, for either side. Just like in sports - nobody likes to watch a blow-out.
I think the problem people have is that when codexs and indeed the game in general is so very unbalanced that is actually better for WAAC people as they can ensure they have a huge advantage over their opponents before a game even starts. People who don't care that much about winning will very likley still like the chance of winning with their chosen army. Its very little fun for a game to be all but decided before the first dice is rolled.
Wanting your army to be competitive does not make you a WAAC player.
Icculus wrote: Does everybody here play WAAC? Does everyone here play only tournament settings and only the most optimized and maximized lists? If that's the case then go ahead and be upset about the book. If you play this game for the fun and flavor of the army then this book still provides you with some cool options to have fun.
I'm not a tournament player but the codex lost a lot of the crutches that could give you a shot at winning. I don't have to win, but i don't want to get tabled either. I think everyone can agree the army wasnt a top army to begin with but it lost even more. I don't think its wrong for people to be upset, i mean come on, no biomancy, no doom, no spore pod, no ymgarl, -bs on guard, lost rerolls on swarmlord. The positives, minor point break, carnifexs might be okay, deathleaper might get into cc, but not against tau who will marker light you arrival turn and pull them on your assault. I haven't looked at exocrine too much so that might be good, but i don't know.
So don't be upset that people are complaining, its expected.
No. What's that got to do with anything? Are you trying to explain away Codex deficiencies by saying the only people that care about them are WAAC players?
Icculus wrote: Does everyone here play only tournament settings and only the most optimized and maximized lists?
No. What's that got to do with anything? Are you trying to explain away Codex deficiencies by saying the only people that care about them are people who play only in tournament settings players?
Icculus wrote: If you play this game for the fun and flavor of the army...
*record scratch noise*
Stop right there. The strawman ends here. You're implying that tournament players/playing to win and fun are mutually exclusive. That's nonsense.
Come back when you have an actual argument and aren't attempting to dismiss a terrible Codex with some utter nonsense about "Play for flavour and fun".
And for the record, I've never been to a tournament nor do I really wish to go. I find competitive gaming boring and whilst I enjoy list building, tweaking the absolute min/max out of a list isn't my style. I'm almost a 100% narrative gamer these days, spending far more time playing the RPG's than the actual table top game. And this Codex suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckkkssssssss. You don't have to be a WAAC or some nut-case "I don't play to win" idiot to see just how un-fething-believably terrible this book is.
Its a sidegrade dex at best. Its very simplistic so I doubt any power combo is going to come in as it doesn't mix with the rulebook or other dexes. Which leaves limited options.
Stand out buffs:
-Spore mines, essentially just became the most annoying way to stop overwatch.
Not sure about:
-Mawlocs. That power is cool an all but if you don't kill everything you can mishap and kill yourself. Or you stand there like a idiot for a turn completely unsupported. Its oval base is bigger then the blast template. Lots of potential but lots of room for failure.
The ugly:
-Tervigons, another great case of gw using a hammer instead of a knife. Nerfed into the dirt. The beauty of tervigons was that it spewed out lots of scoring units, which is something nids have struggled with for ages, its troops suck so terribly bad at holding objectives, mostly because if they aren't fighting, they aren't protecting the synapse creatures, who then promptly die, and then the scoring unit breaks or is run down. Tervigons let you take objectives reliably and act as a synaptic anchor while the rest of the army moved forward. It also saturated the field with targets, wasting 10 marines on 7 gaunts and speed bumping were great ways at letting your enemy waste his points.
Now you have limited targets and taking a tervigon is very expensive and very bad for termagants. Only thing I can think of using this thing for is baby sitting biovores and a home objective or 2.
See whats maddening about this codex is not that is not "op", its that it is the same codex as before, with crappy new mcs (rules no models), points increase, and nerfs. yay.
No. What's that got to do with anything? Are you trying to explain away Codex deficiencies by saying the only people that care about them are WAAC players?
Icculus wrote: Does everyone here play only tournament settings and only the most optimized and maximized lists?
No. What's that got to do with anything? Are you trying to explain away Codex deficiencies by saying the only people that care about them are people who play only in tournament settings players?
Icculus wrote: If you play this game for the fun and flavor of the army...
*record scratch noise*
Stop right there. The strawman ends here. You're implying that tournament players/playing to win and fun are mutually exclusive. That's nonsense.
Come back when you have an actual argument and aren't attempting to dismiss a terrible Codex with some utter nonsense about "Play for flavour and fun".
And for the record, I've never been to a tournament nor do I really wish to go. I find competitive gaming boring and whilst I enjoy list building, tweaking the absolute min/max out of a list isn't my style. I'm almost a 100% narrative gamer these days, spending far more time playing the RPG's than the actual table top game. And this Codex suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckkkssssssss. You don't have to be a WAAC or some nut-case "I don't play to win" idiot to see just how un-fething-believably terrible this book is.
What this man said.
Considering your army book to provide the same capabilities to win or lose, contain the same access to strong choices, ability to take on and win against other armies produced with other recent books, in the same studio by the same team, is not a requirement of 'WAAC' players, it's a requirement of a person who wants an enjoyable game and not a endless stream of losing sessions to stronger books, regardless of player knowledge or skill.
That's not some abstract demand of the 'competitive' players, that's a basic requirement of customer service and the unspoken agreement between GW and it's customer base. There is no warning, on entering GW or opening their website, that some books for their game will be written at one tier and others at a lower tier, the customer expectation is that they can stand a reasonable chance of playing and winning a game against another player of equatable skill and knowledge, regardless of the book/faction they chose.
IF this book has failed to meet that criteria, as a customer, I say they are breaking that unwritten agreement and not providing suitable levels of playtest and development to their product before releasing it. IF this codex falls so far south of the Tau or Eldar codices in terms of how it works in the 40k rules, then those people who chose to spend thousands of dollars on tyranids instead of thousands of dollars on tau, with the intention of playing the game created for the miniature's use, were mis-sold a product by the company and it should be getting ready to do some VERY serious online amendments to the product to bring it up to speed.
It is as much a failure as leaving an army choice not updated on the 'great cycle' of new codices and rules sets. There should be no inferior armies in terms of customer service and expectation, only inferior lists and player skills/experience.
Well I look at it this way, Every Codex that has come out in 6th has had 2-3 great build and generaly has been good if not better. You can't expect everyone to be great, it is very hard to bat a 1,000.
Anpu42 wrote: Well I look at it this way, Every Codex that has come out in 6th has had 2-3 great build and generaly has been good if not better. You can't expect everyone to be great, it is very hard to bat a 1,000.
doesn't chaos have 1 based around helldrakes and what else is taken doesn't realy matter ?
DA have 2-3 big builds? Also CSM don't really have a build honestly. Its like... some combo of a chaos lord either Nurgle, Khorne juggerlord, and the rare Slaanesh lord, oh and Huron!, obliterators, a rare daemon prince, a few Havocs maybe, plague marines, cultists (which honestly are actually honestly not that great either), and sometimes noise marines, almost always spawn, sometimes spawn, and a few chaos bikers maybe. DA the only post I can think of is the bolter banner.
Anpu42 wrote: Well I look at it this way, Every Codex that has come out in 6th has had 2-3 great build and generaly has been good if not better. You can't expect everyone to be great, it is very hard to bat a 1,000.
doesn't chaos have 1 based around helldrakes and what else is taken doesn't realy matter ?
An I remeber when everyone was calling the Helldrake a stupid looking worthless unit.
You can build a good list without Heckturkes, but I find most are to lazy to try.
Anpu42 wrote: Well I look at it this way, Every Codex that has come out in 6th has had 2-3 great build and generaly has been good if not better. You can't expect everyone to be great, it is very hard to bat a 1,000.
doesn't chaos have 1 based around helldrakes and what else is taken doesn't realy matter ?
An I remeber when everyone was calling the Helldrake a stupid looking worthless unit.
You can build a good list without Heckturkes, but I find most are to lazy to try.
Yes, it's commonly known as mono-nurgle.
Also, most people criticised the Hell Turkey for it's appearance. Not it's stats. Also, people criticising the codex in the previous rumour thread commonly based their criticism's upon the confirmed stats we had. The concept that the criticisms were based upon no information what so ever, is a plain out lie before anymore starts to try and claim it. You can however, make straw man and ad-homien attacks. It's an excellent replacement for a proper argument.
Icculus wrote: Does everybody here play WAAC? Does everyone here play only tournament settings and only the most optimized and maximized lists? If that's the case then go ahead and be upset about the book. If you play this game for the fun and flavor of the army then this book still provides you with some cool options to have fun.
I play Tzeentch marines, Khorne armies, occasionally mono Khorne daemon armies (without DP spam), my Tzeentch daemon army has never had more than 1 MC, I have never played screamerstar nor plan to, and my guardsman army is tanks and I warn people when I am taking them so I am not fighting DE with portion and anti infantry but little av. I bought a Held rake about a year ago and played it in 2 games and then promptly shelved it in disgust for how good it was, in our group the only flying units you see are FMC, our tau player doesn't even have a single riptide (he wants one though cause he likes the model), the two best players in our group are the CSM player and the Nid player (he also plays Eldar and Nurgle/Slaanesh daemons but his iconic army is nids). Our guardsman plays hammer and anvil (guardsman platoons supported by tanks and artillery) and occasionally the power blub without any allies. We play campaigns and are into story making. Each one of us has fluff for our own chapter or regiment or company of a chapter or Nid hive fleet or warband. This doesn't mean we don't want to win. We all want to win. We don't like to curb stomp each other when our list makes thematic sense. We want to have fun toll but honestly 40k's rules and codices occasionally make that difficult with wonky rules and imbalances between and within the codices.
Also tournaments can be fun. I have never been to one and never want to but tournaments =/= not fun.
It's funny, the only positive review of the new Tyranids I've read was by someone who clearly has no idea what they're talking about.
Nice jab I suppose, but the truth is that while I don't actively play Nids anymore (I did play using the 4th ed book, but not the Doom & Friends book) I'm not ignorant of the things that go on. I just don't look at it from a "will this win tournaments" perspective but a "can this be fun to play" one instead. The fact is I don't really support competitive 40k because it's a mess and a joke. Nothing Nids were going to get in an update where going to offset "I brought 4 Riptides" or "I brought 6+ Wave Serpents" and make them the new kind of tournament play. But they do look like fun.
Seriously though: Kill Teams for tournaments. It's a much better ruleset than what people are trying to cobble 40k into.
Anpu42 wrote: Well I look at it this way, Every Codex that has come out in 6th has had 2-3 great build and generaly has been good if not better. You can't expect everyone to be great, it is very hard to bat a 1,000.
doesn't chaos have 1 based around helldrakes and what else is taken doesn't realy matter ?
An I remeber when everyone was calling the Helldrake a stupid looking worthless unit.
You can build a good list without Heckturkes, but I find most are to lazy to try.
Yes, it's commonly known as mono-nurgle.
Also, most people criticised the Hell Turkey for it's appearance. Not it's stats.
Admittedly hell turkey broke when it was faqd. Before that it was still pretty good. Admittedly Eldar and tau have many answers for it.
Also Dark Angels? I can honestly only think of one. DW seems fun but also don't really seem too functional.
Also honestly mono-nurgle whilst not bad still I wouldn't call hyper competitive or anything. It is an okay list (zombies can be annoying)
Anpu42 wrote: Well I look at it this way, Every Codex that has come out in 6th has had 2-3 great build and generaly has been good if not better. You can't expect everyone to be great, it is very hard to bat a 1,000.
doesn't chaos have 1 based around helldrakes and what else is taken doesn't realy matter ?
An I remeber when everyone was calling the Helldrake a stupid looking worthless unit.
You can build a good list without Heckturkes, but I find most are to lazy to try.
Yes, it's commonly known as mono-nurgle.
Also, most people criticised the Hell Turkey for it's appearance. Not it's stats.
Admittedly hell turkey broke when it was faqd. Before that it was still pretty good. Admittedly Eldar and tau have many answers for it.
Also honestly mono-nurgle whilst not bad still I wouldn't call hyper competitive or anything. It is an okay list (zombies can be annoying)
No, that's the super Typhus zombie apocalypse build. I'm taking about the Plague marine party van, with every other unit having the mark of Nurgle. Every unit having toughness five and a majority having feel no pain makes the list pretty effective.
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MWHistorian wrote: This Tyrannid codex seems to make the chaos codex look like solid flaming awesome in comparison.
It makes the Chaos codex look like fething Citizen Kane.
welshhoppo wrote: Seems like a fun codex to be totally honest. It may not be as competitive as the Tau/Eldar/Overpowered Cheesedex. But nothing should be as powerful as those things anyway.
I fail to see how less units, less options, less chance of winning = fun.
I updated the data files for battlescribe for nids, and it hardly felt like they lost options. Many things went down a LOT in points, and I'm excited to see what happens with this shuffle of stuff.
Also, side node, are links to data repositories allowed on dakka?
Icculus wrote: Does everybody here play WAAC? Does everyone here play only tournament settings and only the most optimized and maximized lists? If that's the case then go ahead and be upset about the book. If you play this game for the fun and flavor of the army then this book still provides you with some cool options to have fun.
I play with a small circle of friends who, between us, own models for almost every army at this point. Our local 'meta' is weak compared to the tournament meta. Yet we still run into situations regularly where people are threatening not to play against other people's lists, because even for us the power level between armies can be so imbalanced that it's not fun losing regularly.
The Chaos Marine codex is a particular sticking point for us right now because so, so many builds in it are terrible, and we don't own any helldrakes (and never will). Chaos Marines end up playing like lackluster loyalists with no fun toys. It's all too easy, for example, for our Guard player to accidentally put together army lists that our Chaos army practically can't beat. They don't see much table time as a result.
The point of my little anecdote is that even for non-WAAC players just hanging out with friends, it's nice when you feel like your matches are fair, especially if you can do it without debating whether one person should be allowed to use the perfectly legal models they bought because they're too powerful. When a codex is crammed with underpowered and disappointing units, it's just not very fun to play, for either side. Just like in sports - nobody likes to watch a blow-out.
Gunzhard wrote: "New Tyranid Codex: so I've been playing it for a few months now and my impression is..."
Said nobody ever (yet).
Here, let me fix that for you.
New Tyrabid Codex: so I've been playing it for a few years now, cause it is the exact same codex as the 5th codex SERIOUSLY take a second to compare them side by side, do it before you keep talking, and my impression is that it isn't going to wow anyone. It isn't medicore, it is bad. Everything that was good was nerfed, things that were bad are still bad, and the new units range from straight bad to potentially medicore.
Feel better?
I have done the side by side comparison with a store copy of the 5th codex. Nothing changed in any substantial way except for the worse. My god, I still can not believe that someone, somewhere thought to themselves, "Man Scything Talons are OP, we need to fix this!"
It is tempting to say Arbiter_Shade is wrong but he is not so far of the points.
As one who played a lott of nids during 5th edition and some during 6th I know some of it: The models every one where using happened to be very good. Above average (tervigon, fly-rant etc.) Like you would expect from most competetive lists it tended to only run the good stuff. The old tyranid codex only had 1 competitive build.
However, if you where to take one step down from competetive and into casual games you could try to use the other units, like warrior etc. However, those units really under performed, it was horrible. In the old codex you had the choise of some very slim genereic good units that where used by every one, and quite a lot of bad units that did not bring anything to the game. They always died fast and they where bad at the job the where performing.
What they did now is that they made all the units that where good before more expensive and also quite a bit worse. And they did not boost the once that always under performed.
The new codex has: Kept the bad units bad. Made the units that where good in the old codex worse and more exspensive.
Besides 40 points of carnifexes (who where horrible bad and costed to much) I do not see any upside in the new codex.
Gunzhard wrote: "New Tyranid Codex: so I've been playing it for a few months now and my impression is..."
Said nobody ever (yet).
Here, let me fix that for you.
New Tyrabid Codex: so I've been playing it for a few years now, cause it is the exact same codex as the 5th codex SERIOUSLY take a second to compare them side by side, do it before you keep talking, and my impression is that it isn't going to wow anyone. It isn't medicore, it is bad. Everything that was good was nerfed, things that were bad are still bad, and the new units range from straight bad to potentially medicore.
Feel better?
I have done the side by side comparison with a store copy of the 5th codex. Nothing changed in any substantial way except for the worse. My god, I still can not believe that someone, somewhere thought to themselves, "Man Scything Talons are OP, we need to fix this!"
Odin's beard... dude I hope Marijuana becomes legal in your state soon. The truth is, the last Tyranid codex was not a bad codex - it just wasn't a win-button codex. The new one, so far, looks very similar, but clearly not "the exact same". Your reaction is really quite embarrassing (for you), considering that despite your 'side by side comparison' you've yet to playtest the new codex in the current game.
If you want easy-wins, from 'first glance' it would appear that Tyranids again miss that role.
Gunzhard wrote: "New Tyranid Codex: so I've been playing it for a few months now and my impression is..."
Said nobody ever (yet).
Here, let me fix that for you.
New Tyrabid Codex: so I've been playing it for a few years now, cause it is the exact same codex as the 5th codex SERIOUSLY take a second to compare them side by side, do it before you keep talking, and my impression is that it isn't going to wow anyone. It isn't medicore, it is bad. Everything that was good was nerfed, things that were bad are still bad, and the new units range from straight bad to potentially medicore.
Feel better?
I have done the side by side comparison with a store copy of the 5th codex. Nothing changed in any substantial way except for the worse. My god, I still can not believe that someone, somewhere thought to themselves, "Man Scything Talons are OP, we need to fix this!"
Odin's beard... dude I hope Marijuana becomes legal in your state soon. The truth is, the last Tyranid codex was not a bad codex - it just wasn't a win-button codex. The new one, so far, looks very similar, but clearly not "the exact same". Your reaction is really quite embarrassing (for you), considering that despite your 'side by side comparison' you've yet to playtest the new codex in the current game.
If you want easy-wins, from 'first glance' it would appear that Tyranids again miss that role.
Niiai wrote: It is tempting to say Arbiter_Shade is wrong but he is not so far of the points.
As one who played a lott of nids during 5th edition and some during 6th I know some of it: The models every one where using happened to be very good. Above average (tervigon, fly-rant etc.) Like you would expect from most competetive lists it tended to only run the good stuff. The old tyranid codex only had 1 competitive build.
However, if you where to take one step down from competetive and into casual games you could try to use the other units, like warrior etc. However, those units really under performed, it was horrible. In the old codex you had the choise of some very slim genereic good units that where used by every one, and quite a lot of bad units that did not bring anything to the game. They always died fast and they where bad at the job the where performing.
What they did now is that they made all the units that where good before more expensive and also quite a bit worse. And they did not boost the once that always under performed.
The new codex has: Kept the bad units bad. Made the units that where good in the old codex worse and more exspensive.
Besides 40 points of carnifexes (who where horrible bad and costed to much) I do not see any upside in the new codex.
I am dramatizing it a bit, but I don't think I am being really unfair. I decided to buy the new codex, against all better judgement, just because I love Tyranids. They are the reason I got into this game in the first place, I have close to 5k points worth of bugs, and I love painting them. But at the same time, I just really wish I could keep the 5th codex which I hated from the moment it came out...
Warriors are bad, even casually and this bothers me so much because I have so many of them and I love the model. My dad plays IG and we play each other frequently. So many times I have to ask him, hey would you mind NOT running S8 pie plates so I can play some Warriors/Raveners? He gets pissed off and tells me, "only if you can't assault!" To which I roll my eyes and put my warriors back into the box never to be played. The one time I DID play him with warriors and raveners the game was over by turn 2 after he had taken 8-10 warriors/raveners off the table each turn and had more than enough Las Cannons and Las guns to kill my swarms and MCs respectively. They are not cheap enough to warrant how fragile they are. They cost the same amount as terminators and have no way to defend themselves.
EDIT: Gunzhard I live in Colorado so, moot point for you with that ridiculous comment. The Tyranid Codex WAS a bad codex, not because it would just flat out lose but because it was overpriced, was full of useless units, and lacked options. The 6th codex is better priced!, full of useless units, and lacks options.
welshhoppo wrote: Seems like a fun codex to be totally honest. It may not be as competitive as the Tau/Eldar/Overpowered Cheesedex. But nothing should be as powerful as those things anyway.
I fail to see how less units, less options, less chance of winning = fun.
I updated the data files for battlescribe for nids, and it hardly felt like they lost options. Many things went down a LOT in points, and I'm excited to see what happens with this shuffle of stuff.
Also, side node, are links to data repositories allowed on dakka?
Re: Lost options. 2 of them are special characters (Doom and Parasite) We also lost Spores, which you wouldn't really notice coding a Battlescribe file because they are transports and don't get their own entry in the army list. So in addition to losing the models, we lost the utility that deep striking quite a few units previously offered. Now, just about everything foot slogs; great for Pyrovores!
Carnifexes down 40 is nice, considering 160 was way overpriced.
Tyranofexes down 75 shows how crazy overpriced they were.
Harpy (lol) down 25
Mawloc (that noone took) down 30.
So the points drops were largely on models that no one took already, because they were insanely overpriced. The prices drops look huge, but really only put those models at "reasonable" to "good deal". Everything else went down a handful of points, again largely on things like Lictors that no one used because they were (and really, still kind of are, bad).
Many models that saw points drops also saw pretty sizable nerfs.
Lictors: Losing rending on flesh hooks removed their one-trick-pony use of showing up behind a tank and shooting it up the tail pipe.
Zoanthropes: Becoming a brotherhood of psykers means that they get 1 to 2 LESS powers to use a turn, and turns their Warp Blast into an All-or-Nothing affair.
Termagants: 1 point cheaper per model. Previously cost 50 points to unlock a Tervigon troop, now costs 120. Did you want AG/TS like you used to get from the Tervigon? 2 PPM each, so your costs go up WAY higher. You can pay less for weaker Terms, or MORE for the same power level they used to have.
Hormagant: 1 point cheaper per model. Would you pay 1 PPM to get to reroll 1s? Cause Horms lost that.
Re: Crones - Crones are possibly the worst anti-air in the game. Keep in mind: we gained NO skyfire weapons in this codex. 0. We have skyfire 'options' via our 3 flyers:
Harpy: It's only gun options are blast, and so CANNOT skyfire. Vector strike only
Crone: It's main weapon is template, and so CANNOT skyfire. It's Tentaclids are 1 use, and has as much chance to do nothing as it does to penetrate an enemy flyer. Most likely, it will glance and strip a single HP. (BS3 means 1 of 2 Tentaclids will hit.) S8 vector strike is nice and all, but IME vector striking enemy fliers is much harder than it sounds. So our "anti-flyer flyer" only has 4 1 shot weapons to deal with enemy flyers. Also keep in mind it does not have Torrent, so you have to be RIGHT UP on your enemy to use it. Perfect place for a T5 4+ critter right? No way in the world that will go wrong, right?
Hive Tyrant: Doing what it did before; our only real anti-flyer option.
Perhaps we should start Ignoring all the trolls who try to derail the thread by all that
"you can't say codex is bad you haven't played it for months"
And just focus on what this turd of a codex has to offer (if any).
Gunzhard wrote: "New Tyranid Codex: so I've been playing it for a few months now and my impression is..."
Said nobody ever (yet).
Here, let me fix that for you.
New Tyrabid Codex: so I've been playing it for a few years now, cause it is the exact same codex as the 5th codex SERIOUSLY take a second to compare them side by side, do it before you keep talking, and my impression is that it isn't going to wow anyone. It isn't medicore, it is bad. Everything that was good was nerfed, things that were bad are still bad, and the new units range from straight bad to potentially medicore.
Feel better?
I have done the side by side comparison with a store copy of the 5th codex. Nothing changed in any substantial way except for the worse. My god, I still can not believe that someone, somewhere thought to themselves, "Man Scything Talons are OP, we need to fix this!"
Odin's beard... dude I hope Marijuana becomes legal in your state soon. The truth is, the last Tyranid codex was not a bad codex - it just wasn't a win-button codex. The new one, so far, looks very similar, but clearly not "the exact same". Your reaction is really quite embarrassing (for you), considering that despite your 'side by side comparison' you've yet to playtest the new codex in the current game.
If you want easy-wins, from 'first glance' it would appear that Tyranids again miss that role.
Yes what he said. People seem to be bit chin about the fact there is no supreme easy list that will beat everything. Well boo hoo. Yes Taudar is good and easy to play but making every other army OP to compensate won't solve anything.
Wait that's what I thought - someone said they were the same. I was really afraid there for a bit, my friend runs Cultists a lot, and one of the other friends I have uses lots of Kroot, and I've played Orks before.
Well, I'm not buying the new codex for a good few months, I'm going to keep an eye on what people say here on dakka. I have the 5th edition and I only really got it just to get back into tyranids and be updated with the "new" models. I'm still deciding whether to learn how to play 40k yet, but with all the conflicts with how tyranids play now, I think I'm going to stay as a painter/collector for now lol.
Ratliker wrote: Perhaps we should start Ignoring all the trolls who try to derail the thread by all that
"you can't say codex is bad you haven't played it for months"
And just focus on what this turd of a codex has to offer (if any).
Is this an ironic post? ...pretty funny that the actual FACT is, nobody has play-tested the new codex yet - but to say so is apparently "trolling" and might endanger (derail) a whinefest thread about how much of a turd this codex, that nobody has played yet, is... Ok got it hah.
Gunzhard wrote: "New Tyranid Codex: so I've been playing it for a few months now and my impression is..."
Said nobody ever (yet).
Here, let me fix that for you.
New Tyrabid Codex: so I've been playing it for a few years now, cause it is the exact same codex as the 5th codex SERIOUSLY take a second to compare them side by side, do it before you keep talking, and my impression is that it isn't going to wow anyone. It isn't medicore, it is bad. Everything that was good was nerfed, things that were bad are still bad, and the new units range from straight bad to potentially medicore.
Feel better?
I have done the side by side comparison with a store copy of the 5th codex. Nothing changed in any substantial way except for the worse. My god, I still can not believe that someone, somewhere thought to themselves, "Man Scything Talons are OP, we need to fix this!"
Odin's beard... dude I hope Marijuana becomes legal in your state soon. The truth is, the last Tyranid codex was not a bad codex - it just wasn't a win-button codex. The new one, so far, looks very similar, but clearly not "the exact same". Your reaction is really quite embarrassing (for you), considering that despite your 'side by side comparison' you've yet to playtest the new codex in the current game.
If you want easy-wins, from 'first glance' it would appear that Tyranids again miss that role.
Yes what he said. People seem to be bit chin about the fact there is no supreme easy list that will beat everything. Well boo hoo. Yes Taudar is good and easy to play but making every other army OP to compensate won't solve anything.
No one is asking for Tau/Eldar level of power. What we are asking for is a codex where most of the units are poor choices and everything can be fielded. What we got is a codex where everything is a poor to medicore with no star units, the same problem the 5th codex had. It seems our choices now are between bad and worse and that makes the codex boring and uniteresting. I could care less if a army is powerful if they at least have units that I can put on the table and expect to do something with them. SoB are considered a pretty bad army but I love playing them, win just fine with them against most list, and while I have complaints about their codex over all I feel it is decent. The new Nid book? It is just plain bad, I don't mean that in terms of power level, it is just power written with no thought put into it. Most of the codex is filled with units that are just plain useless. Warriors lack survivability, don't put out that much damage, and are expensive. Same thing with Genestealers. Same thing with Hormagaunts, Lictors, Tervigons, Primes, Haruspex, Harpy, Raveners, etc, etc. The list goes on and on with units that are just so bad they aren't worth fielding. The units that ARE worth fielding are decent at best which leads to playing any army that is just boring to play with and against. The Crone on the one hand seems like it might be decent but in reality is so fragile that it is going to go down super fast against any army. The Exocrine looks like he is great on paper but in play will go down fast, lacks maneuverability and doesn't REALLY pack that huge of a punch. Will he put down Riptides? If he can get in range before being shot down. Will he kill Wraithknights? If he can get into range then the Wraithknight can charge him and frankly the Wraithknight is much better in melee than the Exocrine.
The biggest let down of the new book is that it is pretty much a complete copy-paste of the current book. So many missed opportunities to change things for the better, or just change them for the sake of novelty. Such a missed opportunity.
I noticed that Zoanthrope automatically get Warp blast AND can generate a power from the Tyranid codex powers. That's kind of nice....However, what do you do if you get catalyst? Do you get 3 chances to cast it because there are 3 psykers?
I feel like the answer is "no" due to brotherhood rules...
The other thing I want to point out is this: A viable shrike build (which by the way, no models were released for) costs 50 ppm!!! Even to make them more effective (TS) that brings them to 53 ppm. No way will they be used.
RE: Tervigon nerfs--I read somewhere that people were unsure if Gants got counter attack anymore and Yes, they do. Furthermore, did anyone read the how the "Spawn termagants" works? It's changed. Before, you had to spawn BEFORE you moved the Tervigon. Now you can spawn AFTER the Tervgion has moved. Sure you can't do anything but Run with those gants after they've spawned, but who cares? Anyone else seeing Outflanking Tervigons spawning Gants into Tau's backline?
I don't own the book or have any intentions of playing Tyranids but I always like reading the new Codexes to see what's changed. Personally, I don't like it. I feel that too much has been nerfed through point increases and loss of options for this to be as competitive as Eldar or Tau for example, although I imagine some long-time 'Nid players may be able to come up with some pretty competitive lists.
Gunzhard wrote: the actual FACT is, nobody has play-tested the new codex yet
This is the funny "ha-ha" part of your post, guessing it was your jab at irony? (I mean, even the cynics are hoping the rumor is that GW did playtest this one and just decided it was too stupid to fix in time.) The rest is funny "uh-oh" and pretty much bunk to anyone that has an understanding of rules.
Gunzhard wrote: "New Tyranid Codex: so I've been playing it for a few months now and my impression is..."
Said nobody ever (yet).
Here, let me fix that for you.
New Tyrabid Codex: so I've been playing it for a few years now, cause it is the exact same codex as the 5th codex SERIOUSLY take a second to compare them side by side, do it before you keep talking, and my impression is that it isn't going to wow anyone. It isn't medicore, it is bad. Everything that was good was nerfed, things that were bad are still bad, and the new units range from straight bad to potentially medicore.
Feel better?
I have done the side by side comparison with a store copy of the 5th codex. Nothing changed in any substantial way except for the worse. My god, I still can not believe that someone, somewhere thought to themselves, "Man Scything Talons are OP, we need to fix this!"
Odin's beard... dude I hope Marijuana becomes legal in your state soon. The truth is, the last Tyranid codex was not a bad codex - it just wasn't a win-button codex. The new one, so far, looks very similar, but clearly not "the exact same". Your reaction is really quite embarrassing (for you), considering that despite your 'side by side comparison' you've yet to playtest the new codex in the current game.
If you want easy-wins, from 'first glance' it would appear that Tyranids again miss that role.
Yes what he said. People seem to be bit chin about the fact there is no supreme easy list that will beat everything. Well boo hoo. Yes Taudar is good and easy to play but making every other army OP to compensate won't solve anything.
If all armies were OP, then none would be OP. If all lists were as good as Taudar, no one would be complaining about Taudar. Balance. It's a crazy idea, I know.
if the FAQ least allow tyranids to use other psychic power options and redone some biomorphs like those silly scything talons and such, then maybe you can see rather competitive lists...
Ratliker wrote: Perhaps we should start Ignoring all the trolls who try to derail the thread by all that
"you can't say codex is bad you haven't played it for months"
And just focus on what this turd of a codex has to offer (if any).
Is this an ironic post? ...pretty funny that the actual FACT is, nobody has play-tested the new codex yet - but to say so is apparently "trolling" and might endanger (derail) a whinefest thread about how much of a turd this codex, that nobody has played yet, is... Ok got it hah.
What's there to play-test? This book is a copy-paste of the 5th edition book.
well they could start somewhere, if GW is that stubborn as we know, least make that small change that dont go an all out review on the entire book, in which I would like it to be done in thi next months really...
Do I need to playtest a 300-point unit that has WS1, BS1, T3 and 5+ save with no special rules to know that it's an ass unit?
It's interesting that people believe 40K is some kind of ultra-complex game where you have to read between the lines to discover its secrets. After the years that people have been playing (decades for some) the game, it's not hard to look at a unit's rules and figure out whether it's crap or not, and the book only has like, around 20 units if that. You could literally read the entire codex and evaluate every units' rules in a day.
That this codex is basically the 5th edition codex just with tweaks makes that evaluation even easier.
BlaxicanX wrote: Do I need to playtest a 300-point unit that has WS1, BS1, T3 and 5+ save with no special rules to know that it's an ass unit?
It's interesting that people believe 40K is some kind of ultra-complex game where you have to read between the lines to discover its secrets. After the years that people have been playing (decades for some) the game, it's not hard to look at a unit's rules and figure out whether it's crap or not, and the book only has like, around 20 units if that. You could literally read the entire codex and evaluate every units' rules in a day.
That this codex is basically the 5th edition codex just with tweaks makes that evaluation even easier.
Exalted for truth. GW's simplistic stat system makes such analysis usually pretty trivial.
Icculus wrote: 12 TL S6 shots for 150 points?! That sounds pretty awesome right there. I'd take two Carnifexs (carnifi?) for that at 300 points.
Toss in huge hordes of termagants, a couple flyrants, maybe a zoanthrope or two and a Hive Crone.
Yea that's DAKKAjet on a waaagh! territory there. Granted the jet gets 18 if I remember right but you get 12 every turn from every fex, and you can take 3 per unit right? It's nice to see some love for those guys again. They are one of my fave units in the game just because of the cool factor
I'm tired of the "wait and see crowd" I've had the codex since wednesday. I've been sick all week and not working and have had time to look at it the book. It's not very good. It's DA good. So if you don't like the DA codex because it isn't very competitive or because there are very few builds, then you won't like this either. If you like the DA codex because of fluff and the awesome models, Tyranids will be fine for you.
I am also tired of getting asked how would I fix nids, as if how dare I, a simple gamer, question the judgement of those who make the rules. Well, I am going to tell the world now since GW took a big steamer on my aspirations for this book.
1. Models in synapse range or are synapse creatures may run and assault as long as they haven't arrived from deep strike or fired a heavy weapon.
2. Create two different psychic powers charts, destructive and enhancement. Destructive focus on witch fires and novas. Make a doom like power. Enhancement, take the biomancy table and remove the leaching powers (would go in destructive) add two other powers.
3. Fix Trygon deep striking hole. Models my arrive at same time as trygon (or prime) but may not assault in the turn they arrive.
4. Genestealers may charge from outflank, but go up in cost by +2 points per model.
5. Tervigons remain their 160 points with all their 5th ed rules, but you must take a unit of 30 gants per tervigon to unlock as troops
6. Create a flyer that can't be grounded, make said flyer T6 with living ammunition that chases it's intended targets. Smart bombs basically.
7. Make instinctive behavior brutal (like in the new edition).
8. Warriors boosted to T5 but lose a wound.
9. Scything talons remain re-rolled misses.
10. Increase price of Hive Tyrant, but make him ML 2 base.
Commissar Merces wrote: I'm tired of the "wait and see crowd" I've had the codex since wednesday. I've been sick all week and not working and have had time to look at it the book. It's not very good. It's DA good. So if you don't like the DA codex because it isn't very competitive or because there are very few builds, then you won't like this either. If you like the DA codex because of fluff and the awesome models, Tyranids will be fine for you.
I am also tired of getting asked how would I fix nids, as if how dare I, a simple gamer, question the judgement of those who make the rules. Well, I am going to tell the world now since GW took a big steamer on my aspirations for this book.
3. Fix Trygon deep striking hole. Models my arrive at same time as trygon (or prime) but may not assault in the turn they arrive. The hole is really meant for apoc. The ways to use it in regular games are too limited, but apoc is amazing with the way reserves works there
5. Tervigons remain their 160 points with all their 5th ed rules, but you must take a unit of 30 gants per tervigon to unlock as troops Maybe part of the problem with nid monobuild was the op-ness of the tervigon? Maybe this price hike and slight reduction in abilities is actually bringing it in line?
9. Scything talons remain re-rolled misses. Ok, yea, I agree here
10. Increase price of Hive Tyrant, but make him ML 2 base. He went down in price and he IS master level 2
Johnnytorrance wrote: Please be honest with your opinions. I would like to hear directly from the new owners of the Codex.
I want my $50 back and what he heck am I going to do with 6k worth of Bugs...
I would keep the $50 book and play the game. Hell, it's what I bought and painted models for, why should I stop playing because I have to re-learn my army?
Commissar Merces wrote: I'm tired of the "wait and see crowd" I've had the codex since wednesday. I've been sick all week and not working and have had time to look at it the book. It's not very good. It's DA good. So if you don't like the DA codex because it isn't very competitive or because there are very few builds, then you won't like this either. If you like the DA codex because of fluff and the awesome models, Tyranids will be fine for you.
I am also tired of getting asked how would I fix nids, as if how dare I, a simple gamer, question the judgement of those who make the rules. Well, I am going to tell the world now since GW took a big steamer on my aspirations for this book.
3. Fix Trygon deep striking hole. Models my arrive at same time as trygon (or prime) but may not assault in the turn they arrive.
The hole is really meant for apoc. The ways to use it in regular games are too limited, but apoc is amazing with the way reserves works there
5. Tervigons remain their 160 points with all their 5th ed rules, but you must take a unit of 30 gants per tervigon to unlock as troops
Maybe part of the problem with nid monobuild was the op-ness of the tervigon? Maybe this price hike and slight reduction in abilities is actually bringing it in line?
9. Scything talons remain re-rolled misses.
Ok, yea, I agree here
10. Increase price of Hive Tyrant, but make him ML 2 base.
He went down in price and he IS master level 2
Johnnytorrance wrote: Please be honest with your opinions. I would like to hear directly from the new owners of the Codex.
I want my $50 back and what he heck am I going to do with 6k worth of Bugs...
I would keep the $50 book and play the game. Hell, it's what I bought and painted models for, why should I stop playing because I have to re-learn my army?
Tervigons weren't OP. They were an honest to god GOOD unit in a terrible codex. That's what got them the "OP tag" No. The changes didn't bring them in line, it squished them to unusable.
That's my point. Tyrants were too expensive last edition for what you got. Increase their psychic awesomeness and slightly increases points. Now they are too weak and too cheap.
3. Fix Trygon deep striking hole. Models my arrive at same time as trygon (or prime) but may not assault in the turn they arrive.
The hole is really meant for apoc. The ways to use it in regular games are too limited, but apoc is amazing with the way reserves works there
The hole has frell all to do with Apoc, since it existed in the Forge World version of the Trygon before Apoc even existed.
OTOH, a simple fix would be to let the Trygon show up automagically on turn 1 or turn 2. We lost Spores, so why not let the Trygon be our new Drop Pod?
Noooo, that would make way too much frelling sense.
Maybe part of the problem with nid monobuild was the op-ness of the tervigon? Maybe this price hike and slight reduction in abilities is actually bringing it in line?
- Increased it's points substantially
- Removed access to BRB powers
- Increased the range at which it nukes termagants when it dies
- Removed the ability to provide TS/AG to nearby termagaunts
- Greatly increased the tax to make him a troop choice.
Pick any 3 and with the other changes the tervigon would have been pretty well balanced. Slap all of them on him and the only real reason to take it is because the synapse drawbacks are so bad that you have to make sure you provide some sort of defensible synapse or your army starts running away and/or eating itself in a couple turns of being shot at.
Icculus wrote: Does everybody here play WAAC? Does everyone here play only tournament settings and only the most optimized and maximized lists? If that's the case then go ahead and be upset about the book.
not again
Icculus wrote: If you play this game for the fun and flavor of the army then this book still provides you with some cool options to have fun.
Except it provides less flavor and less fun. If they removed everything bar the carnifex, hormagant, hive tyrant and sky slasher, the book would still provide "some cool options to have fun".
Ratliker wrote: Perhaps we should start Ignoring all the trolls who try to derail the thread by all that
"you can't say codex is bad you haven't played it for months"
And just focus on what this turd of a codex has to offer (if any).
Is this an ironic post? ...pretty funny that the actual FACT is, nobody has play-tested the new codex yet - but to say so is apparently "trolling" and might endanger (derail) a whinefest thread about how much of a turd this codex, that nobody has played yet, is... Ok got it hah.
What's there to play-test? This book is a copy-paste of the 5th edition book.
No. What's that got to do with anything? Are you trying to explain away Codex deficiencies by saying the only people that care about them are WAAC players?
Icculus wrote: If you play this game for the fun and flavor of the army...
*record scratch noise*
Stop right there. The strawman ends here. You're implying that tournament players/playing to win and fun are mutually exclusive. That's nonsense.
Come back when you have an actual argument and aren't attempting to dismiss a terrible Codex with some utter nonsense about "Play for flavour and fun".
And for the record, I've never been to a tournament nor do I really wish to go. I find competitive gaming boring and whilst I enjoy list building, tweaking the absolute min/max out of a list isn't my style. I'm almost a 100% narrative gamer these days, spending far more time playing the RPG's than the actual table top game. And this Codex suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckkkssssssss. You don't have to be a WAAC or some nut-case "I don't play to win" idiot to see just how un-fething-believably terrible this book is.
It doesn't matter how "un-freaking-believeably terrible this book is." I will still have fun playing games with my friends with the new Codex, despite its problems. If you can't have fun with even a poor codex making lists, trying fun/fluffy things, and challenging friends, you're either taking the game in its entirety too seriously, or you simply don't know how to have fun with a poor codex.
Heck, give me the Ork codex and I'll have a blast. I'm not defending a bad codex or a hurried release. I'm defending the notion that you and many others have that it's IMPOSSIBLE to have fun with a really, really sucky codex.
Gunzhard wrote: You can rephrase the argument however you like - FACT is, you are not out there playing the new codex yet.
Does it look very similar to the last edition? - yes.
Is that idea disappointing to Nid players? - clearly yes.
Have you given it a fair chance? - no.
That is why most of these Sky is Falling freakouts are so dumb.
Cue "veteran players" with comments of knowing exactly how such and such units will play in-game due to years of experience without playing a game with them.
Well if a icarus and quad guns are popular , then knowing what happens to a t5 FMC doesn't require veteran status . But that is my opinion on that . Losing a type of deployment always is a big lose .
It doesn't matter how "un-freaking-believeably terrible this book is." I will still have fun playing games with my friends with the new Codex, despite its problems. If you can't have fun with even a poor codex making lists, trying fun/fluffy things, and challenging friends, you're either taking the game in its entirety too seriously, or you simply don't know how to have fun with a poor codex.
Heck, give me the Ork codex and I'll have a blast. I'm not defending a bad codex or a hurried release. I'm defending the notion that you and many others have that it's IMPOSSIBLE to have fun with a really, really sucky codex.
There's no reason to defend that notion, because no one has ever claimed that you can't "have fun" with a piece of gak codex. The assertion from players who actually care about the rules of the codex is that the rules of the codex suck donkey shlong. It's fluff bunnies and self-proposed "anti-WAAC" players who fly off their butthurt handles and start complaining about people "taking the game too seriously" whenever a codex's rules get criticized.
No. What's that got to do with anything? Are you trying to explain away Codex deficiencies by saying the only people that care about them are WAAC players?
Icculus wrote: If you play this game for the fun and flavor of the army...
*record scratch noise*
Stop right there. The strawman ends here. You're implying that tournament players/playing to win and fun are mutually exclusive. That's nonsense.
Come back when you have an actual argument and aren't attempting to dismiss a terrible Codex with some utter nonsense about "Play for flavour and fun".
And for the record, I've never been to a tournament nor do I really wish to go. I find competitive gaming boring and whilst I enjoy list building, tweaking the absolute min/max out of a list isn't my style. I'm almost a 100% narrative gamer these days, spending far more time playing the RPG's than the actual table top game. And this Codex suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckkkssssssss. You don't have to be a WAAC or some nut-case "I don't play to win" idiot to see just how un-fething-believably terrible this book is.
It doesn't matter how "un-freaking-believeably terrible this book is." I will still have fun playing games with my friends with the new Codex, despite its problems. If you can't have fun with even a poor codex making lists, trying fun/fluffy things, and challenging friends, you're either taking the game in its entirety too seriously, or you simply don't know how to have fun with a poor codex.
Heck, give me the Ork codex and I'll have a blast. I'm not defending a bad codex or a hurried release. I'm defending the notion that you and many others have that it's IMPOSSIBLE to have fun with a really, really sucky codex.
Ha ha ha no. Don't criticize others. Want to know what sucks? CSM. Now you can have fun with it yes. But not to all people. Some people like competitive 40k. I personally don't, I don't feel the rules are good enough to make an entertaining meta. But let us forget that and talk casual players. Want to know my favorite legion? Thousand Sons. Want to know my favorite god? Tzeentch (followed by Slaanesh, then Khorne, and in last place Nurgle). Guess what, the CSM codex taunts me saying ha ha CSM Tzeentch is probably the worst army in the game that is themed. It is all a trap. An overpriced sub par not entertaining trap. And the heldrake? It is anti-fun in a nutshell. In competitive it is almost a must but all competitive armies can easily kill it (or just everything else), in casual games it is too strong especially when playing with worse players. Can I have some small bit of fun? Yeah. But it is painful knowing I am chopping my limbs off in playing. It is painful to know that all we are is SM-1 in all occasions. We don't get anything besides d3 infantry infiltrate to mix up deployment (oh and Slaanesh outflank steed) and the standard terminator/jump DS. Nids lost mystic spores restricting it even further. There is no fun in fighting a player that deploys 2-3 riptides with an ethereal commander and just carves you apart nor is it fun when you play a Khorne army of zerkers supported by Havocs and watch as Eldar dance around you and rend your armour as you never reach cc. And the most painful part of all is that SM comes out with what CSM have dreamed for since 3.5 edition. Why do I say this all? Because people whisper how alike this is to CSM and even SoB.
Cue "veteran players" with comments of knowing exactly how such and such units will play in-game due to years of experience without playing a game with them.
Why not?
I have been playing genestealers, tervigons and the like for years. It takes me 20 seconds to compare the new entry with the old one, because they are mostly the same. It can take one hour to do that for every unit I own. I know exactly how my models "will play in-game due to years of experience". Also, where is my Doom? My Imgarl Genestealers? My Mortrex Parasite? Spores? Do I need to wait for a month to realize that they are no longer there? Are you sure you don´t play some form of marines, the "we get more units with every release" army?
Even if there is something in the new stuff that compensates this, it will still be a failure, Heldrake style. A single broken thing does not compensate a crappy book, no matter how competitive it is. If there is something.
Johnnytorrance wrote: My intent for asking is that I want to read legit reviews. I want to hear directly from the owners of the book not people who are criticizing it before it even went on sale.
Is it asking much?
I agree with you, but people like me have seen direct quotes from the book now. There are too many units that got worse or didn't improve.
if you are looking for legit discussion on 40k, you're on the wrong site bro.
It doesn't matter how "un-freaking-believeably terrible this book is." I will still have fun playing games with my friends with the new Codex, despite its problems. If you can't have fun with even a poor codex making lists, trying fun/fluffy things, and challenging friends, you're either taking the game in its entirety too seriously, or you simply don't know how to have fun with a poor codex.
Heck, give me the Ork codex and I'll have a blast. I'm not defending a bad codex or a hurried release. I'm defending the notion that you and many others have that it's IMPOSSIBLE to have fun with a really, really sucky codex.
you make it sound as if you aren't playing the game , but just meeting with friends. One can hook up with friends without neeing to spend ton of cash on plastic models , painting etc.
BlaxicanX wrote: (...) It's fluff bunnies and self-proposed "anti-WAAC" players who fly off their butthurt handles and start complaining about people "taking the game too seriously" whenever a codex's rules get criticized.
As a fluff bunny, I disagree. Having good rules improves both "fun/fluffy/casual games" and competitive ones. Loving the background of a faction and seeing that the Codex does not do justice to it generates a lot of healthy criticism and some rightful nerd rage.
Look at the Codex: CSM. From a competitive point of view, the Heldrake and a handful other units somehow "save" it. But from a "fun" point of view, it is terrible, for the reasons StarTrotter posted (and others). And it seems Tyranids have gone the same way. I also feel bad for the Sisters. Compare it with Codex: Space Marines, and it looks like GW has a "first class / second class" customer classification.
No. What's that got to do with anything? Are you trying to explain away Codex deficiencies by saying the only people that care about them are WAAC players?
Icculus wrote: If you play this game for the fun and flavor of the army...
*record scratch noise*
Stop right there. The strawman ends here. You're implying that tournament players/playing to win and fun are mutually exclusive. That's nonsense.
Come back when you have an actual argument and aren't attempting to dismiss a terrible Codex with some utter nonsense about "Play for flavour and fun".
And for the record, I've never been to a tournament nor do I really wish to go. I find competitive gaming boring and whilst I enjoy list building, tweaking the absolute min/max out of a list isn't my style. I'm almost a 100% narrative gamer these days, spending far more time playing the RPG's than the actual table top game. And this Codex suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckkkssssssss. You don't have to be a WAAC or some nut-case "I don't play to win" idiot to see just how un-fething-believably terrible this book is.
It doesn't matter how "un-freaking-believeably terrible this book is." I will still have fun playing games with my friends with the new Codex, despite its problems. If you can't have fun with even a poor codex making lists, trying fun/fluffy things, and challenging friends, you're either taking the game in its entirety too seriously, or you simply don't know how to have fun with a poor codex.
Heck, give me the Ork codex and I'll have a blast. I'm not defending a bad codex or a hurried release. I'm defending the notion that you and many others have that it's IMPOSSIBLE to have fun with a really, really sucky codex.
Ha ha ha no. Don't criticize others. Want to know what sucks? CSM. Now you can have fun with it yes. But not to all people. Some people like competitive 40k. I personally don't, I don't feel the rules are good enough to make an entertaining meta. But let us forget that and talk casual players. Want to know my favorite legion? Thousand Sons. Want to know my favorite god? Tzeentch (followed by Slaanesh, then Khorne, and in last place Nurgle). Guess what, the CSM codex taunts me saying ha ha CSM Tzeentch is probably the worst army in the game that is themed. It is all a trap. An overpriced sub par not entertaining trap.
This. Casual players and themed armies are more screwed than competitive ones. The latter will almost always find some units and combinations that more or less work, the former if unlucky just have to accept being at the bottom. But no the fun lololol anti powergamer brigade does not accept this, because at the particular moment they have fun with their lists and their friends and it's all ok.
BlaxicanX wrote: It's interesting that people believe 40K is some kind of ultra-complex game where you have to read between the lines to discover its secrets. After the years that people have been playing (decades for some) the game, it's not hard to look at a unit's rules and figure out whether it's crap or not, and the book only has like, around 20 units if that. You could literally read the entire codex and evaluate every units' rules in a day.
If there was a way to multi-exalt, I would do so, because I cannot believe people don't understand this basic concept. So I can't multi-exact, but I can multi-quote. Maybe it'll sink in the 6th of 7th time someone reads it. I almost want to put it in my sig.
BlaxicanX wrote: It's interesting that people believe 40K is some kind of ultra-complex game where you have to read between the lines to discover its secrets. After the years that people have been playing (decades for some) the game, it's not hard to look at a unit's rules and figure out whether it's crap or not, and the book only has like, around 20 units if that. You could literally read the entire codex and evaluate every units' rules in a day.
BlaxicanX wrote: It's interesting that people believe 40K is some kind of ultra-complex game where you have to read between the lines to discover its secrets. After the years that people have been playing (decades for some) the game, it's not hard to look at a unit's rules and figure out whether it's crap or not, and the book only has like, around 20 units if that. You could literally read the entire codex and evaluate every units' rules in a day.
- Increased the range at which it nukes termagants when it dies
- Removed the ability to provide TS/AG to nearby termagaunts
- Greatly increased the tax to make him a troop choice.
Pick any 3 and with the other changes the tervigon would have been pretty well balanced. Slap all of them on him and the only real reason to take it is because the synapse drawbacks are so bad that you have to make sure you provide some sort of defensible synapse or your army starts running away and/or eating itself in a couple turns of being shot at.
This is classic GW pendulum rules design at its absolute best (worst!), and a true case of perception vs reality.
Perception: Tervigon is OP. Everyone is bringing them. Reality: Tervigon is one of the few good units in a terrible Codex. Everyone brings them because what the hell else are they going to bring? Rippers? Jesus...
Realistic Solution: Find a balance between changing its abilities and leaving its cost the same, or making its cost better reflect its abilities. GW Solution: Remove all its abilities and put its cost up.
StarTrotter wrote: Quick question if I might. Nids can ally with nids and get a bit extra? Or was that just some rumours?
Nope one FoC unless you double up at 2K. There is some potential uses of Fortification that Jifel has been working on but that's about it beyond the book.
I'm a long time Tyranid player, and it's for the first time I'm not looking forward to use the new rules.
I don't really care how strong a particular codex or unit is (I use Pyrovores on occassion..), but I feel the codex lost some of it's charm for me. We have unique rules like Synapse and Instinctive behaviour, and in this new codex it almost feels like a drawback, instead of something unique and special. Yes we get Fearless, but so does every other book in some form or shape. And on top of that Synapse Creatures got more expensive (exluding the Hive Tyrant), so it feels even more like a tax!
I hope things will work out eventually, I see some gems in there (cheap-ish Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes), and nice combos like with the Venomthrope.
BlaxicanX wrote: (...) It's fluff bunnies and self-proposed "anti-WAAC" players who fly off their butthurt handles and start complaining about people "taking the game too seriously" whenever a codex's rules get criticized.
As a fluff bunny, I disagree. Having good rules improves both "fun/fluffy/casual games" and competitive ones. Loving the background of a faction and seeing that the Codex does not do justice to it generates a lot of healthy criticism and some rightful nerd rage.
Look at the Codex: CSM. From a competitive point of view, the Heldrake and a handful other units somehow "save" it. But from a "fun" point of view, it is terrible, for the reasons StarTrotter posted (and others). And it seems Tyranids have gone the same way. I also feel bad for the Sisters. Compare it with Codex: Space Marines, and it looks like GW has a "first class / second class" customer classification.
Fluffy.. makes you wonder how a space traveling species of monster lands on the planet without spores? Do they beam down ala Star Trek?
No reliable way to deal with flyers is one part of it, except for the fact that I can spam Hive Crone and flying Hive Tyrant...
The loss of the micetic spore as a mean of transport... that's huge loss after the nerf done to the genestealers... now our amies are going to be even more static
Yeah... I can still make a line and charge... with a thousand Termagaunts...
The warlord traits table is joke ! Common... seriously ? Carnivorus jungle ? Wow... I'm seriously not rolling on that table, that's a fact !!!
I could have taken a brutal instinctive behaviour... but that and get nothing in return ?
The Tyranid Warriors are not a viable choice for troops, too expensive and not that good. The Genestealers are next to useless... but yeah... I can spam Hormagaunts and Termagaunts...
What happened to the cool rumors !!!
I've been a Tyranid player for 3 codex in a row now... through the good and the bad... and I will still play them... but I'm not putting money in them anymore... no cool models for me except for the Harpy/Crone and the Haruspex/Exocrine I've just bought... and they are not even that good. I'll go Nidzilla all the way for the next couple of games and see how well this codex is behaving.
I do how ever have one notion regarding this codex that I have not thought of before.
I think it might have very good internal balance. I have not tryed it so I can not verify, and it will take some time, but I think everything in there is just as bland. This could be a huge thing for very casual gaming. For people who are more interested in other aspects then competitive it can be fun to make a list.
However it will die horribly to anybody who brings a hell drake or a vendetta and a quadgun.
Proxy wrote:Seriously, this codex is a huge deception for me.
No reliable way to deal with flyers is one part of it, except for the fact that I can spam Hive Crone and flying Hive Tyrant...
Eh? Two Flying Hive Tyrants with 12 TL S6 Shots and Preferred enemy chip off 2.7 hull points on a heldrake, even with a 5+ invulnerable save. They can also deploy on the field turn one and heldrakes have next to no way of dealing with them. Even if you fail to destroy the Chicken in one go, there's always a chance that it will be destroyed by some of your other shooting.
The loss of the micetic spore as a mean of transport... that's huge lost after the nerf done to genestealer now our amies are going to be even more static. Make a line and charge... with a thousand Termagaunts...
The Ellipses "..." is used for an omission. There's no omission here and you're not trying to build suspense. You've used them four times. stop it. Also, Genestealers were never going to be good in sixth. Mycetic spores didn't change this.
The warlord traits are a huge joke !
guess which website said the same thing about the Tau Warlord Traits?
I could have taken a brutal instinctive behaviour... but that and get nothing in return ?
The instinctive behaviours are potentially hurtful maybe once per game. 67% of the time, they're useable.
The Tyranid Warriors are not a viable choice for troops, too expensive and not that good. The Genestealers are next to useless... but yeah... I can spam Hormagaunts and Termagaunts...
Oh, what's wrong with a 30 point model with a S4AP- gun with three shots and 3 wounds? Scything talons are useless, sure. But you're basically paying 10 points per toughness four wound. Sure, those guys get killed by missile launchers, sure. But that's why you use cover tactics. IF your opponent is Tau, Kill the guy with the MSSS, or, y'know, START WITH THEIR PATHFINDERS.
What happened to the cool rumors !!!
Stop Sulking, seriously. The codex isn't half bad. Just because you didn't get termagants at 2 points with 2++ doesn't mean the sky has fallen.
Or conveniently like riptides, or conveniently like serpents, etc. It also can possibly suffer from biker lovers that go grav. Finally, it seems like the nids went from assault to pure dakka almost.
Scipio Africanus wrote: Stop Sulking, seriously. The codex isn't half bad. Just because you didn't get termagants at 2 points with 2++ doesn't mean the sky has fallen.
I have yet to note anyone with such an asinine and condescending post with a Tyranid track or battle report.
Way too many of those snide posts prove ignorance of rule interaction, let alone game theory, or even basic logic.
That has been my sentiment since reading the codex.
Reading peoples posts about it go from the sympathetic (for Tyranid players) to doubting the honesty, integrity, or sanity of the poster.
Sometimes I just hope people are being optimistic and are right.
Those folk all play Tyranids though.
Proxy wrote:Seriously, this codex is a huge deception for me.
No reliable way to deal with flyers is one part of it, except for the fact that I can spam Hive Crone and flying Hive Tyrant...
Eh? Two Flying Hive Tyrants with 12 TL S6 Shots and Preferred enemy chip off 2.7 hull points on a heldrake, even with a 5+ invulnerable save. They can also deploy on the field turn one and heldrakes have next to no way of dealing with them. Even if you fail to destroy the Chicken in one go, there's always a chance that it will be destroyed by some of your other shooting.
The loss of the micetic spore as a mean of transport... that's huge lost after the nerf done to genestealer now our amies are going to be even more static. Make a line and charge... with a thousand Termagaunts...
The Ellipses "..." is used for an omission. There's no omission here and you're not trying to build suspense. You've used them four times. stop it. Also, Genestealers were never going to be good in sixth. Mycetic spores didn't change this.
The warlord traits are a huge joke !
guess which website said the same thing about the Tau Warlord Traits?
I could have taken a brutal instinctive behaviour... but that and get nothing in return ?
The instinctive behaviours are potentially hurtful maybe once per game. 67% of the time, they're useable.
The Tyranid Warriors are not a viable choice for troops, too expensive and not that good. The Genestealers are next to useless... but yeah... I can spam Hormagaunts and Termagaunts...
Oh, what's wrong with a 30 point model with a S4AP- gun with three shots and 3 wounds? Scything talons are useless, sure. But you're basically paying 10 points per toughness four wound. Sure, those guys get killed by missile launchers, sure. But that's why you use cover tactics. IF your opponent is Tau, Kill the guy with the MSSS, or, y'know, START WITH THEIR PATHFINDERS.
What happened to the cool rumors !!!
Stop Sulking, seriously. The codex isn't half bad. Just because you didn't get termagants at 2 points with 2++ doesn't mean the sky has fallen.
English is my third language and I didn't know that "..." was for pointing an omission. I'll stop using them.
The Micetic Spores had their use, dropping some devourer termagaunts with a carnifex next to a trygon was a great tactic and I used it from time to time. In fact they provided an option and it's always cool to have options. Why they took the spores away from one codex to the other is a mistery and it's a loss. Now I have on less way to deploy my Nids on the table.
The fact that I still have the option to take my Hyve Tyrant with wings and a pair of TL devourers is cool, but I wanted the option to be able to use my Hyve Tyrants differently and not have a mandatory setup if I want a chance to deal with flyers.Why did the Hyve Guards couldn't have a skyfire munition ? So simple and so fluffy !
What's wrong with a Tyranid Warrior for 30 pts ? For that price you have a Terminator with 2+/5++ with some cool weaponry or even better 2+/3++. And since they are only T4 they are easily crushed by a power fist and the like in CC and shot to death by missile launcher, meltagun and lascannon. Hell they don't get a save against most weapons ! 4+ save is a joke against any kind of MEQ army. But yes I can hide them. In fact that's the way to play as a Tyranid player. Hide your models.
But yes you're absolutly right. I should stop sulking and take my carnivorous jungle and be happy with it. I'll spam Hive Crones, Dakka Flyrants, Trygons and Dakkafex and call it a day.
But I'm not arguing with you. You know better I'm sure. Because let's face it, there's something worse somewhere and it's easy to deal with any kind of situation, I mean let's face it !!! We have the flying Hive Tyrant !!! Don't worry, it's going to be nerfed somewhere down the line. As long as the codex is not as bad as the Sister's of Battle codex we should be fine and just shut the ... up (omission intended).
And yes I'm still disappointed. That codex is a huge drawback for Tyranid players.
Scipio Africanus wrote: Eh? Two Flying Hive Tyrants with 12 TL S6 Shots and Preferred enemy chip off 2.7 hull points on a heldrake, even with a 5+ invulnerable save. They can also deploy on the field turn one and heldrakes have next to no way of dealing with them. Even if you fail to destroy the Chicken in one go, there's always a chance that it will be destroyed by some of your other shooting.
Uhh, they don't have PE and 12 S6 VS AV12 5++ is averaging about 1 HP per turn. Which, of course, can then be regenerated by IWND next turn.
The Ellipses "..." is used for an omission. There's no omission here and you're not trying to build suspense. You've used them four times. stop it. Also, Genestealers were never going to be good in sixth. Mycetic spores didn't change this.
Why? Why weren't they? There's no excuses for it. If you want people to buy them and broodlords then they need to be usable. My local GW has had a box of stealers sitting there since 4e for crying out loud, it's pathetic.
guess which website said the same thing about the Tau Warlord Traits?
Which are still pretty bad? Tau being awesome doesn't make their traits good. The nid ones, on the other hand, are objectively worse than the BRB ones, which is pathetic.
The instinctive behaviours are potentially hurtful maybe once per game. 67% of the time, they're useable.
Is this a joke? 1/2 the time they cripple you, 100% of the time they cripple gargoyles (who, as an assault unit literally cannot assault if they fail IB) and it's a huge nerf from the last codex. Synapse is actually not that hard to kill now, because the main source of tough synapse, Tervigons, is now almost unusable.
Oh, what's wrong with a 30 point model with a S4AP- gun with three shots and 3 wounds? Scything talons are useless, sure. But you're basically paying 10 points per toughness four wound. Sure, those guys get killed by missile launchers, sure. But that's why you use cover tactics. IF your opponent is Tau, Kill the guy with the MSSS, or, y'know, START WITH THEIR PATHFINDERS.
That'll sure help against farseers with perfect timing, buffmanders and the other ways which Tau can just ignore cover. There IS no "just seek cover" when one of the best armies in the game fires out a S8 AP2 ignores cover large blast. They just die. Even when they don't, a 4+ save is ignored by almost every decent gun in the game, from autocannons to Broadside MPs. They suck. They're again, objectively worse than before, where they also sucked. You're paying 30 points for the survivability of 2 MEQ at best (28 points) and 1 Necron Warrior at worse (13 points). 30 points for a S4 gun is pathetic when they also suck in assault, can be ID'd by a ton of stuff and most heavy guns ignore their save entirely.
Stop Sulking, seriously. The codex isn't half bad. Just because you didn't get termagants at 2 points with 2++ doesn't mean the sky has fallen.
You are a fool. The codex isn't "half bad", it's utterly dire. No-one wanted 2 point termagants with a 2++, we wanted a ****ing decent army. Hell, I'd consider being on par with CSM a success at the moment, at least they can make an army at all and not fear instantly losing if the opponent seizes. There is no excuse for this book being worse than the last one, not at all.
Scipio Africanus wrote: Stop Sulking, seriously. The codex isn't half bad. Just because you didn't get termagants at 2 points with 2++ doesn't mean the sky has fallen.
Scipio Africanus wrote: Stop Sulking, seriously. The codex isn't half bad. Just because you didn't get termagants at 2 points with 2++ doesn't mean the sky has fallen.
I really do hope you're being facetious.
He's actually correct.
It's almost entirely bad.
Awesome! +10 internets!
The nid dex is a big disappointment. Many missed opportunities with sloppy/lazy/poor/bland rules. After the lousy 5e dex I hoped GW would put some effort in making sure this one was decent, but nope. Not to say there aren't good units - of course there are and people will win games with the dex but it is a mess with poor internal balance and many units that are just bad choices, again. This dex shows a lack of creativity and imagination and was probably another rush job. I hope people let GW know that they are unhappy - if GW was a good game company it would take these concerns seriously, take responsibility for a botch job and release a new nid dex again after a proper overhaul (and not in 4 years). I will not support this company with any nid kit purchases to reward such a garbage product - for the money they charge this is a disgrace.
Nobody wants an OP dex - just want one that has had effort and someone doing it that cares about nids so will put some effort into the design philosophy behind the army and how the units work. Warriors still not fixed, raveners nerfed, tyranid prime goes up dramatically in points, rippers even went up - because they were OP? Compare shrikes and raveners - why would you ever take raveners over shrikes - stats almost the same, points cost the same yet shrikes have ld10 and synapse so no synapse issues and more options for biomorphs - of course both are vulnerable to Str 8+ and regular shooting so for their cost probably don't want to take them at all. loss of scything talon re-rolls because that was OP. no BRB psychic powers. For the nid powers onslaught is good (run & shoot) but don't you think an army with a lot of CC elements might want a run & assault power as an option as well? So much cut and paste without any imagination or effort - the trygon tunnel is still the same. This is just sad.
I had a thought that I haven't seen discussed in any threads so far.
It does seem surprising at how little new things are in the codex, doubly so that the new things aren't that great. It got me thinking. What if this is an experiment by GW?
Where I am going with this: we've already seen supplements such as farsight enclaves and dataslates. What if they've deliberately made this codex bland, to see if it will drive sales of supplements and dataslates harder as players seek to 'fill in the gaps'?
It's an interesting thought. GW have been changing a lot over the past year, it does feel a lot like they are experimenting to me. It would not surprise me if they were making some kind of an attempt to cash in on the microtransaction craze we are seeing in most digital mediums right now.
Obviously this is a bit of a tin-foil hat theory right now, but I'm still kind of baffled at this tyranid release and wondering what they are thinking. It just seems so empty. I'm not even a tyranid player and I feel disappointed, because of what it might represent for the future. I mean realistically, I feel this is just a one-off bad codex, but pondering theories has always been in my nature
Cryogen wrote: I had a thought that I haven't seen discussed in any threads so far.
It does seem surprising at how little new things are in the codex, doubly so that the new things aren't that great. It got me thinking. What if this is an experiment by GW?
Where I am going with this: we've already seen supplements such as farsight enclaves and dataslates. What if they've deliberately made this codex bland, to see if it will drive sales of supplements and dataslates harder as players seek to 'fill in the gaps'?
It's an interesting thought. GW have been changing a lot over the past year, it does feel a lot like they are experimenting to me. It would not surprise me if they were making some kind of an attempt to cash in on the microtransaction craze we are seeing in most digital mediums right now.
Obviously this is a bit of a tin-foil hat theory right now, but I'm still kind of baffled at this tyranid release and wondering what they are thinking. It just seems so empty. I'm not even a tyranid player and I feel disappointed, because of what it might represent for the future. I mean realistically, I feel this is just a one-off bad codex, but pondering theories has always been in my nature
Its the same idea as EA making incomplete games and forcing you to buy the DLC despite the content is technically already on the disc.
GW doing it is not surprising, making dozens of data slates and supplements for them essentially raises the codex cost but x number of dollars. An ill omen, especially considering GW is planning on releasing something every single Saturday from now on in some form or another.
Cryogen wrote: I had a thought that I haven't seen discussed in any threads so far.
It does seem surprising at how little new things are in the codex, doubly so that the new things aren't that great. It got me thinking. What if this is an experiment by GW?
Where I am going with this: we've already seen supplements such as farsight enclaves and dataslates. What if they've deliberately made this codex bland, to see if it will drive sales of supplements and dataslates harder as players seek to 'fill in the gaps'?
It's an interesting thought. GW have been changing a lot over the past year, it does feel a lot like they are experimenting to me. It would not surprise me if they were making some kind of an attempt to cash in on the microtransaction craze we are seeing in most digital mediums right now.
Obviously this is a bit of a tin-foil hat theory right now, but I'm still kind of baffled at this tyranid release and wondering what they are thinking. It just seems so empty. I'm not even a tyranid player and I feel disappointed, because of what it might represent for the future. I mean realistically, I feel this is just a one-off bad codex, but pondering theories has always been in my nature
The problem with that theory is that if you us a crap baseline product, there is no reason for us to believe that the supplement will be any better. All it will do, is drive Torrenting those books up.
Sooo, I have found 3 things so far in the codex that I'm happy about.
1) Cheaper Termagant/Hormagaunts By 1 point, but still! It's cheaper.
2) Cheaper wings for the Hive Tyrant. Looks like we won't see walking Hive Tyrants anytime soon.
3) The Hive Crone might actually make a decent flyer hunter. The drool cannon is not even close to being good and there's no option to replace it, but,the four tentaclids (haywire missiles that can re-roll against a flyer) almost make up for it and the cost of the thing is not that bad. Even if hitting on a 4+ is a drawback and the model is subjected to instinctive behaviour (feed), meaning it can eventually kill itself if out of synapse range.
Let's not say one of us didn't try to be positive about the blasted thing!!!
Proxy wrote: Sooo, I have found 3 things so far in the codex that I'm happy about.
1) Cheaper Termagant/Hormagaunts
By 1 point, but still! It's cheaper.
2) Cheaper wings for the Hive Tyrant.
Looks like we won't see walking Hive Tyrants anytime soon.
3) The Hive Crone might actually make a decent flyer hunter.
The drool cannon is not even good, and hitting on 4+ is a drawback, but the four tentaclids (haywire missiles that can re-roll against a flyer) almost make up for it and the cost of the thing is not that bad.
Let's not say one of us didn't try to be positive about the all thing!!!
Crones can only fire 2 weapons, so 2 bs3 haywire missiles with rerolls. It might get 2 hits. Odds are it takes a single hull point.
And everyone and their mom has quad guns, so its losing a bunch of wounds and potentially grounded before it ever does anything.
Goes back to the problem with this book; Lots of unwarranted nerfs, taxes and self damaging restrictive rules
Cryogen wrote: I had a thought that I haven't seen discussed in any threads so far.
It does seem surprising at how little new things are in the codex, doubly so that the new things aren't that great. It got me thinking. What if this is an experiment by GW?
Where I am going with this: we've already seen supplements such as farsight enclaves and dataslates. What if they've deliberately made this codex bland, to see if it will drive sales of supplements and dataslates harder as players seek to 'fill in the gaps'?
It's an interesting thought. GW have been changing a lot over the past year, it does feel a lot like they are experimenting to me. It would not surprise me if they were making some kind of an attempt to cash in on the microtransaction craze we are seeing in most digital mediums right now.
Obviously this is a bit of a tin-foil hat theory right now, but I'm still kind of baffled at this tyranid release and wondering what they are thinking. It just seems so empty. I'm not even a tyranid player and I feel disappointed, because of what it might represent for the future. I mean realistically, I feel this is just a one-off bad codex, but pondering theories has always been in my nature
Its the same idea as EA making incomplete games and forcing you to buy the DLC despite the content is technically already on the disc.
GW doing it is not surprising, making dozens of data slates and supplements for them essentially raises the codex cost but x number of dollars. An ill omen, especially considering GW is planning on releasing something every single Saturday from now on in some form or another.
Yes exactly, the vastly increased rate of releases in recent times (eg weekly magazine thingy) also drove me to considering this angle.
I totally agree that this is an awful plan. It's one thing to try and nickel-and-dime people, it's another thing entirely when your nickels and dimes are actually dollars, and quite the handful of dollars at that. Especially when there already appears to be a significant amount of people concerned about the quality/value.
Proxy wrote: Sooo, I have found 3 things so far in the codex that I'm happy about.
1) Cheaper Termagant/Hormagaunts By 1 point, but still! It's cheaper.
2) Cheaper wings for the Hive Tyrant. Looks like we won't see walking Hive Tyrants anytime soon.
3) The Hive Crone might actually make a decent flyer hunter. The drool cannon is not even good, and hitting on 4+ is a drawback, but the four tentaclids (haywire missiles that can re-roll against a flyer) almost make up for it and the cost of the thing is not that bad.
Let's not say one of us didn't try to be positive about the all thing!!!
Crones can only fire 2 weapons, so 2 bs3 haywire missiles with rerolls. It might get 2 hits. Odds are it takes a single hull point.
And everyone and their mom has quad guns, so its losing a bunch of wounds and potentially grounded before it ever does anything.
Goes back to the problem with this book; Lots of unwarranted nerfs, taxes and self damaging restrictive rules
You're right, but I'm trying to be positive.
With timing, if a quad gun doesn't shoot it down and ground it and if I can get to fly over it, I'll have 2 S8 hits (maybe 3 and potentially 4) from raking strike and then I'll have 2 chances to shoot down an AV12 flyer... at least I can force it to evade. Then I'll die, but hey it's worth it.
So if I take 2 of those, then maybe I'll have a chance against a Storm raven or a vendetta.
All the while I'll chase it down with my absolutly OP Dakka Flyrant!
See? I'll take 500 pts worth of models to deal with a 120-200 pts one, but still! There's hope!
Eh, people always complain about the Tyranid codex sucking. It's almost as much a Tyranid pastime as complaining about not getting updates/new models is for Sisters players.
From what I've read in this thread, it doesn't seem like Tyranids got it all that bad here, though a few favorite units got hit harder than they should have by the nerfbat.
I am face-palming at the people who say things like "the only good reviews are written by people who are stupid/ignorant/don't know the codex" though.
Melissia wrote: From what I've read in this thread, it doesn't seem like Tyranids got it all that bad here...
Then you haven't done enough reading. Maybe start with the Codex. Pretty hard not to see the deficiencies in the book when you start with the book itself.
Proxy wrote:Seriously, this codex is a huge deception for me.
No reliable way to deal with flyers is one part of it, except for the fact that I can spam Hive Crone and flying Hive Tyrant...
Eh? Two Flying Hive Tyrants with 12 TL S6 Shots and Preferred enemy chip off 2.7 hull points on a heldrake, even with a 5+ invulnerable save. They can also deploy on the field turn one and heldrakes have next to no way of dealing with them. Even if you fail to destroy the Chicken in one go, there's always a chance that it will be destroyed by some of your other shooting.
The loss of the micetic spore as a mean of transport... that's huge lost after the nerf done to genestealer now our amies are going to be even more static. Make a line and charge... with a thousand Termagaunts...
The Ellipses "..." is used for an omission. There's no omission here and you're not trying to build suspense. You've used them four times. stop it. Also, Genestealers were never going to be good in sixth. Mycetic spores didn't change this.
The warlord traits are a huge joke !
guess which website said the same thing about the Tau Warlord Traits?
I could have taken a brutal instinctive behaviour... but that and get nothing in return ?
The instinctive behaviours are potentially hurtful maybe once per game. 67% of the time, they're useable.
The Tyranid Warriors are not a viable choice for troops, too expensive and not that good. The Genestealers are next to useless... but yeah... I can spam Hormagaunts and Termagaunts...
Oh, what's wrong with a 30 point model with a S4AP- gun with three shots and 3 wounds? Scything talons are useless, sure. But you're basically paying 10 points per toughness four wound. Sure, those guys get killed by missile launchers, sure. But that's why you use cover tactics. IF your opponent is Tau, Kill the guy with the MSSS, or, y'know, START WITH THEIR PATHFINDERS.
What happened to the cool rumors !!!
Stop Sulking, seriously. The codex isn't half bad. Just because you didn't get termagants at 2 points with 2++ doesn't mean the sky has fallen.
English is my third language and I didn't know that "..." was for pointing an omission. I'll stop using them.
The Micetic Spores had their use, dropping some devourer termagaunts with a carnifex next to a trygon was a great tactic and I used it from time to time.
In fact they provided an option and it's always cool to have options.
Why they took the spores away from one codex to the other is a mistery and it's a loss.
Now I have on less way to deploy my Nids on the table.
The fact that I still have the option to take my Hyve Tyrant with wings and a pair of TL devourers is cool, but I wanted the option to be able to use my Hyve Tyrants differently and not have a mandatory setup if I want a chance to deal with flyers.Why did the Hyve Guards couldn't have a skyfire munition ? So simple and so fluffy !
What's wrong with a Tyranid Warrior for 30 pts ? For that price you have a Terminator with 2+/5++ with some cool weaponry or even better 2+/3++. And since they are only T4 they are easily crushed by a power fist and the like in CC and shot to death by missile launcher, meltagun and lascannon. Hell they don't get a save against most weapons ! 4+ save is a joke against any kind of MEQ army. But yes I can hide them. In fact that's the way to play as a Tyranid player. Hide your models.
But yes you're absolutly right. I should stop sulking and take my carnivorous jungle and be happy with it. I'll spam Hive Crones, Dakka Flyrants, Trygons and Dakkafex and call it a day.
But I'm not arguing with you. You know better I'm sure. Because let's face it, there's something worse somewhere and it's easy to deal with any kind of situation, I mean let's face it !!! We have the flying Hive Tyrant !!!
Don't worry, it's going to be nerfed somewhere down the line. As long as the codex is not as bad as the Sister's of Battle codex we should be fine and just shut the ... up (omission intended).
And yes I'm still disappointed. That codex is a huge drawback for Tyranid players.
You didn't use them wrong. They're also used for a sigh of disbelief or disappointment. That guy is being a right scally wag.
I wouldn't say that it's totally uncompetitive, but it certainly doesn't look fun to play. About the only viable troops choice is going to be termagant hordes, which should be about as effective as guardsmen or shoota boys for similar points. However, footslogging infantry hordes are an absolute nightmare to buy, build, paint, transport and move across the table.
I'm utterly baffled why warriors continue to be so rubbish. Everyone knows that they are bad, everyone is clear on why they are bad, it would be an easy fix to make them good again, but for some reason GW gave them the same old rules... don't expect sales of that new kit they got to be high.
I'm still praying an FAQ goes "oh crap, we didnt mean to take away main rulebook powers since the book says they have them" but i'm sure that's wishful thinking. Right up there with them giving me parasite of mortrex, doom, and ymgarl stealers back :(
I only want my drop pods back. That is really the only thing that upsets me. I had a 6 Pod list that wrecked everything it played.
That and the Hive guard BS nerf. I was hoping losing the doom out of the codex I would want to put in some Hive guard. Not w/ BS 3 and the Zoans and Venoms being so much better.
Did not see this mentioned anywhere, not sure on parasite, but doom and the pod were most likely removed from the book due to the chapterhouse ruling.
This codex makes no sense, the design decisions make no sense.. not even in a we must nerf what was good before to sell new models.
I mean it makes no sense to me at all.
They nerfed Rippers and pyrovore's ffs..... really? who in their right mind thought those needed nerfing.. what was the decision and reasoning behind that?
I'm starting to think that GW just hates tyranids and those who play them. The more i look at this book the more i get angry. For every cool thing (Red Terror
Return) there are 5 things that just suck.
Rakear wrote: Did not see this mentioned anywhere, not sure on parasite, but doom and the pod were most likely removed from the book due to the chapterhouse ruling.
This codex makes no sense, the design decisions make no sense.. not even in a we must nerf what was good before to sell new models.
I mean it makes no sense to me at all.
They nerfed Rippers and pyrovore's ffs..... really? who in their right mind thought those needed nerfing.. what was the decision and reasoning behind that?
And anyone who thinks jy2 isn't a realist just isn't making a credible argument.
He does point out that the winners of the Codex are mainly in the heavy support section, I suppose that's a change from the elite section in 5th edition.
Bloodynecronight wrote: people keep waiting for someone to pull a diamond out of this. Its not there sure nids can be annoying but again without acces to +toughness and 1 creature with a 2+ armor save, not to mention not a single wound increase,
Where do you plan on finding it? In all the melee additions? Cool tail brah ill shoot you before you use it
tell that to the mawloc behind you.
In all honesty, the only saving grace of the new codex is trygon prime+ 2 mawlocs.
and, as ive said on multiple other threads : THEY KILLED MY PARASITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
StarTrotter wrote: and ymgarl genestealers. Seriously does anybody have some fluff explaining the ymgarl factor? Because it kinda feels like a slap in the face.
My guess? Someone realized the idea of there being something Tyranids -won't- eat was a bit silly (seriously, eating is there thing and the idea that there would be these Genestealers -trying- to be eaten and failing is a bit silly regardless how they dressed it) but kept the idea and made it an artefact.
Not saying it wouldn't have made a cool upgrade for the Genestealers themselves (its what I was expecting when I first read the description) but I can see what they were trying to do too.
Wow, it appears the answer to my question is quite obvious. GW messed this one up big time. I don't know anyone who is happy about this. Maybe people should just boycott the new codex. Continue to use 5th edition rules if it's that bad.
StarTrotter wrote: and ymgarl genestealers. Seriously does anybody have some fluff explaining the ymgarl factor? Because it kinda feels like a slap in the face.
Manager: Delete Ymgarl Genestealers.
Designer: And what with the evolved abilities? Tyranids never go back in evolution.
Manager: Just make it a general ability. Worked with Old One Eye's regeneration.
Designer: Okay (sulks).
I don't know a great deal about synapse. But, from what I'm gathering it seems like you'd spend a lot of the game worrying about your own army killing itself somehow. Yeah, that sounds like fun....
I held off judgement of the rumours until I actually had my grubby mitts on the codex. Now I have it, I must say I too am seriously disappointed
I'm not one to jump on 'the sky is falling' bandwagon usually, but I have to say this codex is really very ill conceived. As most people have already said, it's very similar to the old (poorly balanced) codex, with a few changes that mostly amount to a slight (and frankly, baffling) nerf.
My main reaction to my first couple of readings was boredom. I've never had this before when I read a new codex, even ones that I think are under powered, poorly balanced, or over-the-top. New rules always interest me and get me excited. Not this time.
I was really expecting this new release to address the serious internal balance issues the previous codex had. I have to say, I hear a lot of people complain that Eldar and Tau are over powered books. I don't feel that at all. In fact I feel that they're rather well written, with an emphasis on internal balance.
This issue of internal balance really is key to me. External balance (how well an army can hold up against other armies) is important, for sure. But I'm not a competitive player. I don't mind playing with a codex that is widely considered not as powerful as some of the others. What I care about is being able to have fun, and feeling as though I have options to play with. The Tau codex for instance (which incidentally scored highly for external balance too) is great at this. Pick a force organisation slot that isn't troops. In that slot you have a choice of options to fullfil anti-transport, anti-tank, anti-air, ant-horde, anti-MEQ, etc etc. This is great, It gives the player a great deal of freedom in how he builds his army.
This was one of the serious short-comings of the previous Tyranid codex and it has barely been addressed at all. Tyranids still have an abundance of high rate of fire mid strength ani-infantry weapons with poor AP values that cap out at str6. What Tyranid players really needed were more viable options to create a healthy variety of builds, and this codex certainly doesn't provide that.
I want to make it clear that I'm not suggesting that Tyranids should have been given great anti-tank or anti-flyer abilities. Factions are (theoretically) characterised by weaknesses in this game, and armies like Orks and Nids have always had issues dealing with armour. I simply hopes that the options we did have were agbout to be more numerous and spread out over the FO chart. Some of the recent releases really got my hopes up in this regard.
Here's an example of a couple of small changes that would have greatly altered internal balance that I was foolish enough to hope for:
Heavy Venom Cannon loses blast template, becomes Str 9 Assult 2 AP 4. I wouldve been happy for it to keep it's penalty on the vehicle damage table. I would have even been happy for it to keep the old restriction of only being able to score glancing hits.
This would have given Hive Tyrants, Harpies, and Carnifexes a decent long range options for dealing with transports and make walking tyrants and fire support Carnis viable.
A biomorph that can only be taken by a few models in the codex that gives a model skyfire. Perhaps on option on warriors, Hive Guard, and Hive Tyrants. Make Venom Cannons Assault 2 str 6 and then a unit of warriors could be useful for spamming str5/6 shots into flyers.
That's just a start and an example of how some simple changes could really have helped Nids have more flexibility in list builds.
This was a rambling rant, I'm well aware, and I apologise for that. I really wasn't expecting, despite every one else protesting, to be this disappointed with the new codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I may be a complete idiot, but can someone explain to me why anyone would think it would be a good idea to charge more points to swap a Hive Guards Impaler Cannon with a Shock Cannon? That gun really really confuses me. I honestly don't know what the designer was thinking in this instance
This book was unwarranted. It's like what CSM players got only even worse.
It really feels like they just took the last book, cut whatever didn't specifically have a model, arbitrarily changed some random points values on existing stuff without much regard to appropriateness of the change, and added a couple new things randomly. All largely without any reference to how the 6E rules actually play.
Help me out please!
When unit of Biovores fires it's multiple barrage, does each large blast that misses the target spawns d3 mines? or only first one, or in some other way?
PrinceRaven wrote: Just noticed something today; Hive Guard, a unit described as a "gun-beast", has a better weapon skill than ballistic skill. This baffles me.
Their BS went down and they went up in price.
But it's ok - some things are now a bit cheaper, so the whole Codex is 100% perfect and fine and we didn't have a significant proportion of our units nerfed or stillborn. No. Some prices went down. That's all that matters.
PrinceRaven wrote: Just noticed something today; Hive Guard, a unit described as a "gun-beast", has a better weapon skill than ballistic skill. This baffles me.
Their BS went down and they went up in price.
But it's ok - some things are now a bit cheaper, so the whole Codex is 100% perfect and fine and we didn't have a significant proportion of our units nerfed or stillborn. No. Some prices went down. That's all that matters.
At the very least, CSM aren't alone on the whining about major fluff and codex issues anymore.
DA would be included if they had enough of a playerbase to complain about.
Along with Sisters, who have always been downtrodden.
This issue of internal balance really is key to me. External balance (how well an army can hold up against other armies) is important, for sure. But I'm not a competitive player. I don't mind playing with a codex that is widely considered not as powerful as some of the others. What I care about is being able to have fun, and feeling as though I have options to play with. The Tau codex for instance (which incidentally scored highly for external balance too) is great at this. Pick a force organisation slot that isn't troops. In that slot you have a choice of options to fullfil anti-transport, anti-tank, anti-air, ant-horde, anti-MEQ, etc etc. This is great, It gives the player a great deal of freedom in how he builds his army.
Umm, no - Tau has absolutely terrible internal balance. It's no coincidence that nearly all Tau armies look the same: contrast this to many archetypes Guard or Marines can put out.
I do wonder what effect the ruling in the Chapterhouse lawsuit and the many suppliers of alternate models for Tyranids had on this release.
For example, if GW can't be sure of their own copyright on Mycetic Spores, might it not be a good idea to not include them and avoid a potential lawsuit? I know the Mycetic Spore was one of the models that other suppliers made that GW didn't.
Melissia wrote: Eh, people always complain about the Tyranid codex sucking. It's almost as much a Tyranid pastime as complaining about not getting updates/new models is for Sisters players.
Oh yes, it's Tyranid pastime, I see it now, explains everything. It's funny how the most obvious thing is sometimes the last you would think of.
Or, maybe, the last book gave many people enough reasons to complain. And still, I did not complain ever, I liked it - but I don't like the new one. It is bland, boring and gives an impression of being castrated for the sake of future releases.
Fun fact, I defended 6th edition CSM book, claiming that this might be a start of balanced books trend (hahaha poor fool), was a fan (!) of Cruddace codex but can't find the heart to defend this one.
Melissia wrote: I am face-palming at the people who say things like "the only good reviews are written by people who are stupid/ignorant/don't know the codex" though.
I, for example, do not dismiss other people opinions, surely not as much as casual gaming brigade dissmises any criticism of GWs work throwing around WAAC powergamers or whiners (like you for example) bs at anyone disliking the codex. I can imagine the new codex fitting someones playstyle, army or general idea of how nids should work. Still it removed important tactical options and gave nothing in return, why couldn't it provide some new options or at the very least, some new form of deep strike that does not require models or sth.
Now to get back my favourite "nids everywhere" playstyle I will have to go Trygon + 2 Mawlocks route( surely dumbed down and less flexible than throwing down Zoathropes, Gants, Fexes or Doom and still using Trygons or Mawlocks), which btw will surely end up with me being called powergamer by every crybaby against whom they'll turn out even slightly OP. Thanks GW.
I read through the store codex and I was left with a really weak impression. Most of the changes I don't see as a positive and the two new big bugs were lackluster. I was really hoping that shrikes would be anything other than garbage but that has been an empty hope I had prior to the 5th ed book as well.
With the changes to cover in the current edition it turns into an absolute shooting gallery against nids and flyers are sitting ducks as most lists can field significant AA. I'm not seeing a lot of ways to push for assault style play which seems to be where nids are focused. I also have a Templars army and it's a problem that they face as well but they at least have transport options transports which nids do not.
I've had a nids army as long as I've been playing 40k but they've sat on the shelf almost that entire duration as well, I was hoping that the codex would improve things but it doesn't look to be the case. Between a subpar codex and the local bunker closing it's completely soured my interest in picking up any of the new tyranids as the rules are soft and I'll have nowhere local to play. I guess it's a good thing as I'd initially planned on spending the better part of $700 on updating my army. I love the look of nids but I guess they'll just have to continue on being display models as opposed to gaming models.
Kroothawk wrote: Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."
Apart from peopel like jy2 who have played using the codex, noted its deficiencies and think it's not that bad. There will be more.
There are so many price adjustments, on the mawloc, fexes, wings, biovores, venomthropes, even little things like i2 meaning your tervigon might actually survive JOTW, that actually, No; you can't judge the codex by simply looking at the entries. One thing the new codex might stimulate is more diverse builds - huge swarms, flyer spam, MC spam - and it's hard for people to judge unless they try them out and evolve new tactics.
So yes, the codex is lazy, there are obviously serious nerfs, it's outrageous that our troop choice is so limited, and some people will indeed walk away, after being forced to abandon their regular strategy. Of course the codex isn't Eldar or Tau powerful, but I think we've still ot a chance of regularly kicking marine butt. I don't know how it will turn out. Many people will know better than me - but as for those who say they can tell the future, those are the people I personally take least notice of. I'd rather read battle reports from people like jy2 or NIB over on the 'hive.
The codex is fine. It stacks up well against all the other books except Eldar and Tau. Take those two out of the game and it's a fair book.
That being said the Tyranids do have answers for the Tau and Eldar. It's just the devil on the details in trying to get everything into one army list.
Poisoned Gants of all kinds destroy Wraithknights.
Flyrants own daemon princes and even most of the Greater Daemons. They fly up to them and put them in shadows reach, then hit them with psychic scream so they test on leadership 6 or hit them with a str 10 warp lance to instant kill them. You still have 12 str 6 shots to get into them all for a Flyrant who costs 70-120pts less than the Daemon it is attacking.
The horror power is good against Tau, especially Riptides who are leadership 9 and not fearless.
There are things in here that can work. More than I just mentioned.
Most of the complainers are in two camps, IMO.
1. Their 1850pt Bug collection for 5e isn't good enough anymore. Which is true. If you had 2-3k of bugs you are in better shape.
2. The current dynamic of list building is to go cheap on troops and maximum carnage in the other FO slots. That will not work with bugs and people are looking at the codex through that prism.
Kroothawk wrote: Seems there are basically two kinds of posters: 1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!" 2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."
Let's add two more to that:
3.) "I've played using this army and it's not bad." 4.) "I haven't played this army and I've only taken a basic glance at its codex and it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks and I don't like it."
More categories is more inclusive after all, amirite?
More importantly, I'm now annoyed that there is yet another nasty flier I'm gonna have to deal with... mutter.
One thing the new codex might stimulate is more diverse builds - huge swarms, flyer spam, MC spam - and it's hard for people to judge unless they try them out and evolve new tactics.
LoL that is like saying that because IG got vendettas it stimulated them to make many different builds or the same for chaos with helldrakes.
Right now they more or less have to take 2 mawlocks and got forbid it gets FAQed or someone can play with opponents reserv rolls or plays a fortification build .
If a guant costs more or the same what it cost in the last codex and a lot of options fall away , because they lost pods and tervigon buffers , then they at least lost options of deployment .
If a vindicator doesn't destroy other armies , then a template exorcine won't destroy them . If tau can't win by spaming plasmas , then neither will nids with the exorcine .
If good armies were able to live with 2-3 FMC before the new tyranid dex , then they will still be able to deal with 2-3 FMC from the new nid codex.
Now I don't know much about 2k+games , everyone plays 1500 here and at 1500 both the old and the new nids sucked. And now they lost their only saving tricks . biomancy, doom, pod deviguants and ymgrasyls.
Kroothawk wrote: Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."
Let's add two more to that:
3.) "I've played using this army and it's not bad."
4.) "I haven't played this army and I've only taken a basic glance at its codex and it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks and I don't like it."
More categories is more inclusive after all, amirite?
Number 3 is more like "I've played using this army in the previous edition and it wasn't bad." .
Kroothawk wrote: Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."
Let's add two more to that:
3.) "I've played using this army and it's not bad."
4.) "I haven't played this army and I've only taken a basic glance at its codex and it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks and I don't like it."
More categories is more inclusive after all, amirite?
More importantly, I'm now annoyed that there is yet another nasty flier I'm gonna have to deal with... mutter.
A nasty flier that is on mathematical average oneshotted by a Quadgun the phase it comes in from Reserves, mind.
Kroothawk wrote: Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."
Let's add two more to that:
3.) "I've played using this army and it's not bad."
4.) "I haven't played this army and I've only taken a basic glance at its codex and it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks and I don't like it."
More categories is more inclusive after all, amirite?
More importantly, I'm now annoyed that there is yet another nasty flier I'm gonna have to deal with... mutter.
A nasty flier that is on mathematical average oneshotted by a Quadgun the phase it comes in from Reserves, mind.
That's why you barrage the Quadgun with spore mines first
I'm wondering if the seemingly underwhelming Codex is a planned prequel to a better supplement (similar to Black Legion or Farsight Enclaves) that will make Nids better but will require another $50 purchase.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: A nasty flier that is on mathematical average oneshotted by a Quadgun the phase it comes in from Reserves, mind.
I don't understand how it does that? Crone & Harpy are 5 wounds and T5, quad gun is 4 shots and S7? I'm only getting 3.2 wounds at BS5?
Edit: And the Harpy/Crone can also start on the table
This is what I am thinking, you can start it on the table, fly it 24" first turn, run and vector strike the quadgun. I mean if you are that worried about the quad gun, just take it out from the start and if you go second, just limit its targets to crappier stuff turn 1. It isn't impossible to deal with and sure you are wasting points killing a 50 point model, but if it saves you several hundred points later on, I say it is still a big win.
Statistically, it doesn't kill it on average, but what it does do is take off most of it's wounds, and forces a grounding test. If it fails that test, it's almost certainly dead either from the fall, or from the fact that it's a T5 4+ critter sitting on the ground with probably 1 wound at that point...meaning it's fodder for pretty much anything in range.
This is what I am thinking, you can start it on the table, fly it 24" first turn, run and vector strike the quadgun. I mean if you are that worried about the quad gun, just take it out from the start and if you go second, just limit its targets to crappier stuff turn 1. It isn't impossible to deal with and sure you are wasting points killing a 50 point model, but if it saves you several hundred points later on, I say it is still a big win.
Why would anyone place their quadgun within range of a turn 1 vector strike? Deploy it 1" back from the front of their deployment zone and it's now safe from the vector strike and only lost 1" of range....which is still far enough to cover most of the board.
I work it out to 3.2 wounds with BS5 and twin linked so it should have 2 wounds left? Plus if you are letting the quad gun shoot any flyer without having a good go at removing the quad gun first you are doing it wrong.
If I was starting first the crone/harpy would start on the table and I'd be focusing whatever I needed to remove any dedicated anti air, starting second and I'm going to keep it in reserve and focus on removing that anti air first turn.
On average 2 wounds left, and very vulnerable to grounding (which will almost certainly put another wound on it), leaving it dead in the water almost certain to not see another turn.
I think the new flyers can work, but you are going to need to have 2 flyrants + 2-3 of the crone/harpies to saturate the air defenses. Should work against most armies until you run into misslesides, or another flyer heavy army (then it comes down to who goes second).
Tervigons
Tyrants
Spore mine units
Pyrovores
Ripper swarms
Maybe don't take:
Genestealers
Trygons
Everything else is pretty good.
Also dealthleaper is a must have.
I disagree on death leaper. No power weapon means I just charge him and his 3 wounds and kill it. No one in their right mind will accept a challenge from him. You're basically paying 130pts to give -D3 Ld to a enemy character and maybe kill a couple dudes.
Im a long time Tyranid Player and have had the opportunity to get in 5-6 games with the new book, and I have a lot of thoughts on the Nids. Just so everyone knows, I'm not a tournament player, and play a variety of armies and games. Our group is close knit (after each game night a bunch of us go to the bar and drink for longer than we played) and while we compete and try our hardest to beat each other, we dont take ourselves too seriously. For every one-sided massacre Ive given in 40K, I've had games of mordheim where my opponent has only lost one model; the guy who tried to climb down a tower, fell and killed himself. (just so everyone can understand my perspective). We often limit what we bring and have no problem "toning down" our lists to play each other.
When I first heard that Tyranids were going to be updated, I was very excited. Overall, I feel that the changes to armies and the core rules show GWs main push for 6th edition is that players can and should be able to build whatever they want. Armies can take allies to recreate forces usually only allowed in the fiction. It feels to me like GW is trying to say "Take your IG, add a SM strike force, include an inquisitor to watch over everyone, add a tau battlesuit cadre, add a fortress, add whatever you'd like, it's your game" I'd hoped that the new Tyranid codex would take their 6th edition concepts and add them to Tyranids, an army that used to give players the MOST choices and options.
And then I got the book.
TO say I was let down would be an understatement. This is the first major release in IDK how long that actually lost options. For all its faults, I actually felt like the concepts that Cruddace included in the previous book were great. He made the army rely more on synergy and introduced the all-reserved nid army. I feel like the army lost most of its synergy and it definitely lost it's previous deployment options. It also lost it's BRB psychic powers; now the only book in the game to not have access, either on its own or through allies. Instinctive Behavior became more of a hindrance and Synapse less of a benefit. Besides the venomthrope, units in the previous book that attempted to build synergy lost these options. Units in the previous codex that were auto include lost some of their power (I think everyone expected that) but may of the less played options had at best a lateral shift in terms of effectiveness None of the new options change the feel of the new army or change how the army played in the previous edition.
In the old book, I usually ran either swarm nids or drop nids. My no-shooting drop nid army is not an option any more. I cant use the ymgarls or mycetic spores any longer. My swarm army, which actually included hormagaunts and carnifeces, looks like it stayed roughly the same size as before. Points drops were eaten up by adding options and points increases in other units. When I look at my army with the new book, I see largely the same army with less options and less flavor. Sything talons lost their only rules, Toxin and Adrenal glands on gaunts became prohibitively expensive to the point that they are no longer options, IB made running hordes of small gribblies even less attractive, as the death of a synapse creature can cause the unit to rout or attack itself.
Anyone who played tyranids in the previous edition could tell you the the problems that plagues the tyranid army. Small Gribblies were too expensive to be anything but small unit objective holders. Nids had very few options for dealing with tanks and flyers. Mid-sized monsters were too expensive for only t4, genestealers did not have the staying power to survive in an edition with overwatch, interceptor, and no assaults from the board edge. TMCs were too expensive for a WS 3 3-5 attack model, and died way too easily to most things in the game.
I feel that the reason that most Nid players are complaining, even though many have not had the opportunity to play the new book, is that a single read through will show anyone with an understanding of the previous codex that the fundamental issues that plagued the previous codex and weakened the army overall were not addressed. Yes many options dropped in cost, but I feel that those units ended up being costed what they should have been in the last codex, in addition to receiving a drop in effectiveness. In addition, alot of the options that myself and many tyranid players felt would give us options were not added. In an edition that is all about adding more choices and options to one's army, tyranid players are on the outside looking in and were not given anything to make up for the exclusion of BRB psychic powers, fortifications or allies.
Sturmtruppe wrote: I'm wondering if the seemingly underwhelming Codex is a planned prequel to a better supplement (similar to Black Legion or Farsight Enclaves) that will make Nids better but will require another $50 purchase.
There is a Vanguard Infestation dataslate planned, which focuses on genestealers & lictors.
At present, the main problem for 'nids is troops to take objectives, a role previously fulfilled in most people's armies by tervigons. If genestealers got buffed, there'd be a lot of happy 'nid owners. But, hey, let's not hope too much. Can't remember if it's been said before on this thread, but a huge contributor to the disappointment on this subject is the rumours that fulfillfed everyone's wish lists.
Kroothawk wrote: Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."
3. "It won't set tournaments on fire, but there really wasn't much that could come out in a release like this that would upset Wave Serpent spam or whatever the current new Tau powerbuild is in tournaments. It looks like it can be decent fun to play casually though, but tournament wise I think it won't fly. That said, tournaments are pants anymore and Kill Teams does a better job balancing the game and looks like a good replacement for the current competitive scene."
Kroothawk wrote: Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."
Let's add two more to that:
3.) "I've played using this army and it's not bad."
4.) "I haven't played this army and I've only taken a basic glance at its codex and it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks and I don't like it."
More categories is more inclusive after all, amirite?
More importantly, I'm now annoyed that there is yet another nasty flier I'm gonna have to deal with... mutter.
Bad hyperbole is bad.
Post for you, don't forget to respond with a sweeping generalisation lacking a single argument:
Eddtheman wrote: Im a long time Tyranid Player and have had the opportunity to get in 5-6 games with the new book, and I have a lot of thoughts on the Nids. Just so everyone knows, I'm not a tournament player, and play a variety of armies and games. Our group is close knit (after each game night a bunch of us go to the bar and drink for longer than we played) and while we compete and try our hardest to beat each other, we dont take ourselves too seriously. For every one-sided massacre Ive given in 40K, I've had games of mordheim where my opponent has only lost one model; the guy who tried to climb down a tower, fell and killed himself. (just so everyone can understand my perspective). We often limit what we bring and have no problem "toning down" our lists to play each other.
When I first heard that Tyranids were going to be updated, I was very excited. Overall, I feel that the changes to armies and the core rules show GWs main push for 6th edition is that players can and should be able to build whatever they want. Armies can take allies to recreate forces usually only allowed in the fiction. It feels to me like GW is trying to say "Take your IG, add a SM strike force, include an inquisitor to watch over everyone, add a tau battlesuit cadre, add a fortress, add whatever you'd like, it's your game" I'd hoped that the new Tyranid codex would take their 6th edition concepts and add them to Tyranids, an army that used to give players the MOST choices and options.
And then I got the book.
TO say I was let down would be an understatement. This is the first major release in IDK how long that actually lost options. For all its faults, I actually felt like the concepts that Cruddace included in the previous book were great. He made the army rely more on synergy and introduced the all-reserved nid army. I feel like the army lost most of its synergy and it definitely lost it's previous deployment options. It also lost it's BRB psychic powers; now the only book in the game to not have access, either on its own or through allies. Instinctive Behavior became more of a hindrance and Synapse less of a benefit. Besides the venomthrope, units in the previous book that attempted to build synergy lost these options. Units in the previous codex that were auto include lost some of their power (I think everyone expected that) but may of the less played options had at best a lateral shift in terms of effectiveness None of the new options change the feel of the new army or change how the army played in the previous edition.
In the old book, I usually ran either swarm nids or drop nids. My no-shooting drop nid army is not an option any more. I cant use the ymgarls or mycetic spores any longer. My swarm army, which actually included hormagaunts and carnifeces, looks like it stayed roughly the same size as before. Points drops were eaten up by adding options and points increases in other units. When I look at my army with the new book, I see largely the same army with less options and less flavor. Sything talons lost their only rules, Toxin and Adrenal glands on gaunts became prohibitively expensive to the point that they are no longer options, IB made running hordes of small gribblies even less attractive, as the death of a synapse creature can cause the unit to rout or attack itself.
Anyone who played tyranids in the previous edition could tell you the the problems that plagues the tyranid army. Small Gribblies were too expensive to be anything but small unit objective holders. Nids had very few options for dealing with tanks and flyers. Mid-sized monsters were too expensive for only t4, genestealers did not have the staying power to survive in an edition with overwatch, interceptor, and no assaults from the board edge. TMCs were too expensive for a WS 3 3-5 attack model, and died way too easily to most things in the game.
I feel that the reason that most Nid players are complaining, even though many have not had the opportunity to play the new book, is that a single read through will show anyone with an understanding of the previous codex that the fundamental issues that plagued the previous codex and weakened the army overall were not addressed. Yes many options dropped in cost, but I feel that those units ended up being costed what they should have been in the last codex, in addition to receiving a drop in effectiveness. In addition, alot of the options that myself and many tyranid players felt would give us options were not added. In an edition that is all about adding more choices and options to one's army, tyranid players are on the outside looking in and were not given anything to make up for the exclusion of BRB psychic powers, fortifications or allies.
Kroothawk wrote: Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."
3. "It won't set tournaments on fire, but there really wasn't much that could come out in a release like this that would upset Wave Serpent spam or whatever the current new Tau powerbuild is in tournaments. It looks like it can be decent fun to play casually though, but tournament wise I think it won't fly. That said, tournaments are pants anymore and Kill Teams does a better job balancing the game and looks like a good replacement for the current competitive scene."
The problem isn't that nids can't roll in and stomp a tournament with ease, the problem is they lost cool/fun things, got very little back in return, and everything that was good got knocked down hard with nothing bringing it back up. It's just playing the 5th Edition codex with less points than your opponent.
First up, I own the codex, I play nids and have done for about four years.
Now, at first glance, the codex is pretty bad. We've lost a lot of what was good about the old book (Spores, Doom, Ymargls, Biomancy and excellent Tervigons) and gained nothing much. However, the codex is still ok. It doesn't stand up to the best codexes of this edition (Eldar and Tau) but it's equally as good, if not better, than the worst ones (DA, CSM). The good thing, arguably, about the new dex is that there's no stand-out unit. Though the "good" units of the Codex aren't quite Wave Serpent level, there are a lot of them. Whereas, say, CSM's competitive lists are limited to Typhus/Zombies/Plague Marines/Heldrakes/Oblits, Tyranid lists will see a variety of different units which are all "fairly good".
I think Tyranids may struggle at tournaments, but in a friendly meta, they can quite easily stand up for themselves. If you're thinking of starting Tyranids, I'd still go for it. They're a good army, I think people are just disappointed because they were expecting something at the level of Eldar or Tau.
Kroothawk wrote: Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."
3. "It won't set tournaments on fire, but there really wasn't much that could come out in a release like this that would upset Wave Serpent spam or whatever the current new Tau powerbuild is in tournaments. It looks like it can be decent fun to play casually though, but tournament wise I think it won't fly. That said, tournaments are pants anymore and Kill Teams does a better job balancing the game and looks like a good replacement for the current competitive scene."
I don't know. Spore pods and some ignores cover would have gone a long way. Keeping biomancy would have been helpful too. 3pt termagants would have off set tervigon nerfs. Doom of Malatai having a 24" SitW. Ymgarls ignoring overwatch.
Instead of adding options they took them away, and did nothing to fill the gaps or fix 2 of the worst rules the army has had for 10 years.
I'm not sure but, isn't it possible for us to just not use the new codex and stick with the last one? It surely can't be called cheating, and I've seen a lot of non nid players feeling sorry for about it all, so if you play a game against someone, just say "oh and btw I'm going to use the old codex, is that ok?", figured this would work, but I don't know.
Glaiceana wrote: I'm not sure but, isn't it possible for us to just not use the new codex and stick with the last one? It surely can't be called cheating, and I've seen a lot of non nid players feeling sorry for about it all, so if you play a game against someone, just say "oh and btw I'm going to use the old codex, is that ok?", figured this would work, but I don't know.
People were pretty viciously against allowing that with GK and Sisters if I remember correctly. I'd imagine in this case, where people wish to play an older codex due to it being more powerful, they'd be even moreso against it. Same question also popped up and was shot down by players wanting to use the old 'Nid dex when the 5th edition one came out.
Waiting for Squats to come back and "Squat" the nids.
Glaiceana wrote: I'm not sure but, isn't it possible for us to just not use the new codex and stick with the last one? It surely can't be called cheating, and I've seen a lot of non nid players feeling sorry for about it all, so if you play a game against someone, just say "oh and btw I'm going to use the old codex, is that ok?", figured this would work, but I don't know.
Use the 3rd ed rulebook army list.
Tyrants were 80pts and you had to roll morale checks to charge them or you fell back.
lictors were ICs
Genestealers ignored armour saves (not power weapons, just flat out ignored armour saves)
The whole army had the ability to deepstrike. And you could make all fast, troops and elites infiltrate.
Kroothawk wrote: Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."
3. "It won't set tournaments on fire, but there really wasn't much that could come out in a release like this that would upset Wave Serpent spam or whatever the current new Tau powerbuild is in tournaments. It looks like it can be decent fun to play casually though, but tournament wise I think it won't fly. That said, tournaments are pants anymore and Kill Teams does a better job balancing the game and looks like a good replacement for the current competitive scene."
The problem isn't that nids can't roll in and stomp a tournament with ease, the problem is they lost cool/fun things, got very little back in return, and everything that was good got knocked down hard with nothing bringing it back up. It's just playing the 5th Edition codex with less points than your opponent.
Yes they did lose a couple of good things. Honestly though Spore Pods have been dead since the Chapterhouse case went south on GW and the Doom was such an automatic choice that I don't really think it was well written. Ymgarls were a silly concept but could have been a unit upgrade for Genestealers so I do agree that was a missed opportunity.
I do seem some good in this book though too, Lictors are better now that they have something akin to grenades and the giant carpet of bugs build isn't looking too bad thanks to how cheap it is to run 30 Gaunts now (plus I've always liked the giant carpet of bugs build). Tervigons did need something done to them to ease off the "I'm taking 5, and trying to Iron Arm everything" but with the loss of book powers (which honestly seems a bit fair when you consider that Tyranids aren't Psykers, they just use the power of the Hive Mind to achieve similar results which the powers do feel like, to me at least) the nerf bat swung a little too hard at it.
In the end it looks like a release that just ran out of available funding so they couldn't go as big as people expected, or wanted. Maybe that'll change in the future with some defense line-style rules-in-box models in the future, or perhaps a dataslate or two. I don't know. I get that people are disappointed but honestly I think people buy too much into the hype of a new book and then backlash when it doesn't meet that hype. It's not the worst book GW has ever made, even if it's not a competitive titan it looks like it could still be fun to play outside of that realm. That's just my thoughts on it though.
Now, that said, I'm sure someone will be glad to quote this and then tell me how wrong my opinion is and how the book is crap and so on. That's fine, that's your opinion, I just don't think lumping everyone into "blindly loves it" and "venomously hates it" was fair when there are plenty of mixed reactions. I get that the book isn't the book people expected and I get that there is some standard internet backlash going on as well (there always is to some extent with anything GW does good or ill) but I'm not in that camp and honestly unless someone has it on film that GW showed up to their house and Tom Kirby used the book to beat someone in submission I won't be. I'm also not someone who blindly loves the book either. I just go in expecting far worst than most and was pleasantly surprised to see there does seem to be something in there that looked playable and perked my interests again, something the last book failed to do (which is how I eventually ended up playing Sisters, I just didn't like the 5th ed book because it didn't really cater to how I liked to play bugs at the time). Will I be starting a Tyranid army? Probably not. But that has more to do with me being a college student now than the book itself.
Kroothawk wrote: Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."
3. "It won't set tournaments on fire, but there really wasn't much that could come out in a release like this that would upset Wave Serpent spam or whatever the current new Tau powerbuild is in tournaments. It looks like it can be decent fun to play casually though, but tournament wise I think it won't fly. That said, tournaments are pants anymore and Kill Teams does a better job balancing the game and looks like a good replacement for the current competitive scene."
The problem isn't that nids can't roll in and stomp a tournament with ease, the problem is they lost cool/fun things, got very little back in return, and everything that was good got knocked down hard with nothing bringing it back up. It's just playing the 5th Edition codex with less points than your opponent.
Yes they did lose a couple of good things. Honestly though Spore Pods have been dead since the Chapterhouse case went south on GW and the Doom was such an automatic choice that I don't really think it was well written. Ymgarls were a silly concept but could have been a unit upgrade for Genestealers so I do agree that was a missed opportunity.
I do seem some good in this book though too, Lictors are better now that they have something akin to grenades and the giant carpet of bugs build isn't looking too bad thanks to how cheap it is to run 30 Gaunts now (plus I've always liked the giant carpet of bugs build). Tervigons did need something done to them to ease off the "I'm taking 5, and trying to Iron Arm everything" but with the loss of book powers (which honestly seems a bit fair when you consider that Tyranids aren't Psykers, they just use the power of the Hive Mind to achieve similar results which the powers do feel like, to me at least) the nerf bat swung a little too hard at it.
In the end it looks like a release that just ran out of available funding so they couldn't go as big as people expected, or wanted. Maybe that'll change in the future with some defense line-style rules-in-box models in the future, or perhaps a dataslate or two. I don't know. I get that people are disappointed but honestly I think people buy too much into the hype of a new book and then backlash when it doesn't meet that hype. It's not the worst book GW has ever made, even if it's not a competitive titan it looks like it could still be fun to play outside of that realm. That's just my thoughts on it though.
Now, that said, I'm sure someone will be glad to quote this and then tell me how wrong my opinion is and how the book is crap and so on. That's fine, that's your opinion, I just don't think lumping everyone into "blindly loves it" and "venomously hates it" was fair when there are plenty of mixed reactions. I get that the book isn't the book people expected and I get that there is some standard internet backlash going on as well (there always is to some extent with anything GW does good or ill) but I'm not in that camp and honestly unless someone has it on film that GW showed up to their house and Tom Kirby used the book to beat someone in submission I won't be. I'm also not someone who blindly loves the book either. I just go in expecting far worst than most and was pleasantly surprised to see there does seem to be something in there that looked playable and perked my interests again, something the last book failed to do (which is how I eventually ended up playing Sisters, I just didn't like the 5th ed book because it didn't really cater to how I liked to play bugs at the time). Will I be starting a Tyranid army? Probably not. But that has more to do with me being a college student now than the book itself.
Again, it's not even so much that I think the book is an unwinable turd (I think it does suck) the real problem is that more things were taken than were added in, and the majority of things that were good before have been nerfed. The book still might be good, but it really seems to just be 5E codex with nerfs, and that's unfortunate.
Yeah, pretty obvious that there's nothing like chapter tactics where we're all pleased with the creative effort and flexibility of the new dex. Feels like CSM with it's missing legions... I think those rumors on Hive fleet builds were so clever and made so much sense that their absence just hurts.
Not sure if a solid supplement will be a bandaid or salt in the wound to the Hivemind.
Now, that said, I'm sure someone will be glad to quote this and then tell me how wrong my opinion is and how the book is crap and so on.
That was actualy a good post. What you miss imo is that without biomancy nids would be abysmal this edition but they took it and gave nothing back. Nids have no allies, no pods, no brb powers and only a few really fluffy rules (synapse, lictors, mawlocks, tervigon). They should be efficient and deadly, not because powergaming but it would fit the fluff and mood of the army, then they remove rerolls with STs and your Trygon from swift killer turns into a sloppy troll feel - wise. That Tervigon build you mention, it should have been nerfed a bit (only maybe though, and biomancy out would suffice for sure) but it was also extremly fluffy and shouldn't be nerfed that hard. Noone talks about how they want OP but just how more units should be viable and how the book should offer more vs the old one instead of being a step back. You also mention too much hype, didn't they at GW claim that they are going to fix the 5th edition book? It's hardly fixed, what would you expect if not massive dissapointment.
The book is playable ofc but vs what it should have been (and I'm not talking abou some unrealistic expectations or dreams of top tier) it is pretty bad.
Kroothawk wrote: Seems there are basically two kinds of posters:
1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!"
2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."
3. "It won't set tournaments on fire, but there really wasn't much that could come out in a release like this that would upset Wave Serpent spam or whatever the current new Tau powerbuild is in tournaments. It looks like it can be decent fun to play casually though, but tournament wise I think it won't fly. That said, tournaments are pants anymore and Kill Teams does a better job balancing the game and looks like a good replacement for the current competitive scene."
The problem isn't that nids can't roll in and stomp a tournament with ease, the problem is they lost cool/fun things, got very little back in return, and everything that was good got knocked down hard with nothing bringing it back up. It's just playing the 5th Edition codex with less points than your opponent.
Yes they did lose a couple of good things. Honestly though Spore Pods have been dead since the Chapterhouse case went south on GW and the Doom was such an automatic choice that I don't really think it was well written. Ymgarls were a silly concept but could have been a unit upgrade for Genestealers so I do agree that was a missed opportunity.
I do seem some good in this book though too, Lictors are better now that they have something akin to grenades and the giant carpet of bugs build isn't looking too bad thanks to how cheap it is to run 30 Gaunts now (plus I've always liked the giant carpet of bugs build). Tervigons did need something done to them to ease off the "I'm taking 5, and trying to Iron Arm everything" but with the loss of book powers (which honestly seems a bit fair when you consider that Tyranids aren't Psykers, they just use the power of the Hive Mind to achieve similar results which the powers do feel like, to me at least) the nerf bat swung a little too hard at it.
In the end it looks like a release that just ran out of available funding so they couldn't go as big as people expected, or wanted. Maybe that'll change in the future with some defense line-style rules-in-box models in the future, or perhaps a dataslate or two. I don't know. I get that people are disappointed but honestly I think people buy too much into the hype of a new book and then backlash when it doesn't meet that hype. It's not the worst book GW has ever made, even if it's not a competitive titan it looks like it could still be fun to play outside of that realm. That's just my thoughts on it though.
Now, that said, I'm sure someone will be glad to quote this and then tell me how wrong my opinion is and how the book is crap and so on. That's fine, that's your opinion, I just don't think lumping everyone into "blindly loves it" and "venomously hates it" was fair when there are plenty of mixed reactions. I get that the book isn't the book people expected and I get that there is some standard internet backlash going on as well (there always is to some extent with anything GW does good or ill) but I'm not in that camp and honestly unless someone has it on film that GW showed up to their house and Tom Kirby used the book to beat someone in submission I won't be. I'm also not someone who blindly loves the book either. I just go in expecting far worst than most and was pleasantly surprised to see there does seem to be something in there that looked playable and perked my interests again, something the last book failed to do (which is how I eventually ended up playing Sisters, I just didn't like the 5th ed book because it didn't really cater to how I liked to play bugs at the time). Will I be starting a Tyranid army? Probably not. But that has more to do with me being a college student now than the book itself.
Again, it's not even so much that I think the book is an unwinable turd (I think it does suck) the real problem is that more things were taken than were added in, and the majority of things that were good before have been nerfed. The book still might be good, but it really seems to just be 5E codex with nerfs, and that's unfortunate.
You may end up being right... but the fact is - you do really have to give it some reps in the current game/meta with 6th edition wholly in mind - abandon whatever you thought was good in 5th, the game has changed tremendously.
It might suck, but I know this - the last (5E codex) did NOT suck - it just wasn't an easy-win / win-button book. The few good players I saw and faced wielding that book were ridiculously hard to challenge.
The TauDar idea is not a good measure of anything - if you need TauDar to win - you are NOT "competitive", you are the opposite. If you have won the game at the 'list-building' phase, that does NOT make you a good or 'competitive' player. That said, if your army is so bad that nothing you do could result in a victory then that is clearly a problem - but that has NEVER been the case with any Tyranid codex.
Eddtheman wrote: I feel that the reason that most Nid players are complaining, even though many have not had the opportunity to play the new book, is that a single read through will show anyone with an understanding of the previous codex that the fundamental issues that plagued the previous codex and weakened the army overall were not addressed. Yes many options dropped in cost, but I feel that those units ended up being costed what they should have been in the last codex, in addition to receiving a drop in effectiveness. In addition, alot of the options that myself and many tyranid players felt would give us options were not added. In an edition that is all about adding more choices and options to one's army, tyranid players are on the outside looking in and were not given anything to make up for the exclusion of BRB psychic powers, fortifications or allies.
Lobukia wrote: Yeah, pretty obvious that there's nothing like chapter tactics where we're all pleased with the creative effort and flexibility of the new dex.
Yes one appreciates those even if not every each one is competitive or OP. Most just work, you get options and are happy with that unlike new nid codex where it's going to be "well Mawlock or Fexes, or just fun".
I just finished to read the book and I can said is a good book. Ok, some people doesnt like the fact that the Doom, the Parasite, spore mine are not there anymore. For the psychic power, they are not bad and we must wait until the faq come out to know if we can use the old psychic power.
Can someone can explain to me why the pyrovore is stile bad as before.
Kroothawk wrote: Seems there are basically two kinds of posters: 1.) "I haven't read it, but come on, it can't be that bad!" 2.) "I have read it, it IS that bad."
3. "It won't set tournaments on fire, but there really wasn't much that could come out in a release like this that would upset Wave Serpent spam or whatever the current new Tau powerbuild is in tournaments. It looks like it can be decent fun to play casually though, but tournament wise I think it won't fly. That said, tournaments are pants anymore and Kill Teams does a better job balancing the game and looks like a good replacement for the current competitive scene."
The problem isn't that nids can't roll in and stomp a tournament with ease, the problem is they lost cool/fun things, got very little back in return, and everything that was good got knocked down hard with nothing bringing it back up. It's just playing the 5th Edition codex with less points than your opponent.
Yes they did lose a couple of good things. Honestly though Spore Pods have been dead since the Chapterhouse case went south on GW and the Doom was such an automatic choice that I don't really think it was well written. Ymgarls were a silly concept but could have been a unit upgrade for Genestealers so I do agree that was a missed opportunity.
I do seem some good in this book though too, Lictors are better now that they have something akin to grenades and the giant carpet of bugs build isn't looking too bad thanks to how cheap it is to run 30 Gaunts now (plus I've always liked the giant carpet of bugs build). Tervigons did need something done to them to ease off the "I'm taking 5, and trying to Iron Arm everything" but with the loss of book powers (which honestly seems a bit fair when you consider that Tyranids aren't Psykers, they just use the power of the Hive Mind to achieve similar results which the powers do feel like, to me at least) the nerf bat swung a little too hard at it.
In the end it looks like a release that just ran out of available funding so they couldn't go as big as people expected, or wanted. Maybe that'll change in the future with some defense line-style rules-in-box models in the future, or perhaps a dataslate or two. I don't know. I get that people are disappointed but honestly I think people buy too much into the hype of a new book and then backlash when it doesn't meet that hype. It's not the worst book GW has ever made, even if it's not a competitive titan it looks like it could still be fun to play outside of that realm. That's just my thoughts on it though.
Now, that said, I'm sure someone will be glad to quote this and then tell me how wrong my opinion is and how the book is crap and so on. That's fine, that's your opinion, I just don't think lumping everyone into "blindly loves it" and "venomously hates it" was fair when there are plenty of mixed reactions. I get that the book isn't the book people expected and I get that there is some standard internet backlash going on as well (there always is to some extent with anything GW does good or ill) but I'm not in that camp and honestly unless someone has it on film that GW showed up to their house and Tom Kirby used the book to beat someone in submission I won't be. I'm also not someone who blindly loves the book either. I just go in expecting far worst than most and was pleasantly surprised to see there does seem to be something in there that looked playable and perked my interests again, something the last book failed to do (which is how I eventually ended up playing Sisters, I just didn't like the 5th ed book because it didn't really cater to how I liked to play bugs at the time). Will I be starting a Tyranid army? Probably not. But that has more to do with me being a college student now than the book itself.
I don't understand your reasonning. What does it have to do with funding ? They actually invested some money to build the crone / harpy kit, only to put completly useless stats on it. It has nothing to do with funding... I will play tyranid, even with a "bad" codex, and I see some possible list altho it will never be tournament level (who cares ?) but please, don't make it seems like there is no blatant design flaw with some of the units, especially if you compare them to their tau/eldar/SM counterpart.
It might suck, but I know this - the last (5E codex) did NOT suck - it just wasn't an easy-win / win-button book. The few good players I saw and faced wielding that book were ridiculously hard to challenge.
I 100% agree with this statement, which is why I'm sad to see the exact same book with units removed and major nerfs.
I would like to add to my previous comment the positive things I have to say about this new codex.
Although I am upset about the lack of internal balance, options, and the fact that the issues that were found in the previous codex were not addressed, there are some things to get excited about. I am very disappointed, but it's not all doom and gloom.
1. Huge points drops across the codex. Swarms are cheaper, and other models, such as the Carnifex and particularly the Tyrannofex, are now considerably better costed.
2. The Exocrine seems to me to be a possible new Gem. It is viable against transports, 2+ save monstrous creatures (Riptides), and elite infantry, as well as swarms of troops. I'm gradually getting rather excited about the thing.
3. Mawlocs have improved and are nicely costed.
4. Venomthropes, which I feel were better than they were generally given credit for last codex, are better than they were before.
5. Lictors, whilst not entirely fixed, seem a lot more viable.
6. Despite losing out on the Rule book psychic powers, I quite like the Tyranid codex powers.
7. The Crone, whilst not what I'd hoped it would be, seems decent, if fragile.
8. I haven't hear many people talk about this, so maybe I'm missing something, but Boneswords seem to have improved.
9. I think Hormagants being cheaper and faster may make up for the loss in accuracy. I'm not willing to bet on this just yet, but Im happy about this trade.
10. The option for blinding attacks on Gargoyles is certainly interesting. I'm not sure how viable it will be, but you never know.
There. Not a good or well written codex in my opinion, but I'll still play it and have fun with it. Hive Fleet Johnny wont be taken out so easily
It might suck, but I know this - the last (5E codex) did NOT suck - it just wasn't an easy-win / win-button book. The few good players I saw and faced wielding that book were ridiculously hard to challenge.
I 100% agree with this statement, which is why I'm sad to see the exact same book with units removed and major nerfs.
I agree as well, though a few units suffered from being extremly overcosted. They are in line now which people mistake with being super good or sth just because 30 points less.
Do Warriors suck as badly as people are saying? Would running a Warrior centric list be very weak? It's more an aesthetic thing that I've had in mind since the last codex but I couldn't be bothered coverting or using finecast for lashwhips and boneswords.
I really don't understand how lashwhips raise initiative. That doesn't seem to make any sense. Is it +1 Int or what?
Destroyer Lord (all the goodies)
Overlord (all the goodies)
10 Immortals (Tesla in Night Scythe)
9 Warriors (Ghost Ark)
Triach Stalker
6 Wraiths (whip coils)
Anni Barge
Wraiths did a lot of damage, but then died to 60+ guant shots and Exocrines. Dreadknights got locked up alot because of little guys, but ended up contesting the relic and burning them off it several times. Made 3 big bugs explode with force weapons (even at reduced leadership). Dreadknights are still beasts versus Nids. Had I used some riflemen instead... the horror. The Horror.
Speaking of the horror, after many shots it managed to pin a Necron Overlord once. Once.
Flyrants are a must and getting the Lance power is a must. It's going to be the best way to deliver that.
Venomthropes hidden out of LoS or in cover suck to shoot at. Then again, our armies (GK/N) were entirely 24" or less. Either didn't care about cover or the things we shot at never benefited (flyrants).
I denied the witch several times versus the Zoeys. That's pretty painful when one roll stops them all.
It could have gone a lot better for me (Draigowing) had Draigo not ate gak the second turn from some really bad armor saves and failing a 5~6" charge at a fallen Flyrant warlord. The GK/N had some PISS POOR dice rolls. The Nids essentially pointed at a unit and it died except for the Immortals, Coteaz and the Dreadknights.
Game came to a tie on turn 5 because we had to call it. Linebreaker + First Blood versus Linebreaker (yea shunts) + Slay the Warlord.
What do I think against the Nids?
Had I had full Paladinstar, they'd be in a world of hurt. We took a hard beating, but it was kind of pathetic considering the Nids were bringing their best (maybe not the Harpy, but w/e) and a bad match up (full psyker army) and an non-optimized Necrons list had a chance at winning, even with the worst dice in the world. (Still mad Draigo lost three wounds from the first flyrant).
If I was playing my Sisters, I could outrange them greatly and use a butt-ton of flamers to incinerate the little guys. And my soon to be Eldar (not even a cheese list)? Nope.
I'd like to try again, certainly, but I felt at loss because of the pairings not the armies. I think Exocrines are a must take.
Venomthropes were amazing in 5E but nobody used them because they were afraid to 'waste' an elite slot. That forced 'dangerous terrain' check radius alone was so deadly - of course in 6E you can now get an armour save for failed dangerous-terrain so the effect is far less threatening. Still I was always surprised that so many people ignored that unit...
Gunzhard wrote: Venomthropes were amazing in 5E but nobody used them because they were afraid to 'waste' an elite slot. That forced 'dangerous terrain' check radius alone was so deadly - of course in 6E you can now get an armour save for failed dangerous-terrain so the effect is far less threatening. Still I was always surprised that so many people ignored that unit...
Probably because with one good shot they popped right open along with the fact that natural cover was better then the venoms.
Along with being in the elite slot when you desperately needed to open vehicles with the hive guard.
Medium of Death wrote: Do Warriors suck as badly as people are saying? Would running a Warrior centric list be very weak? It's more an aesthetic thing that I've had in mind since the last codex but I couldn't be bothered coverting or using finecast for lashwhips and boneswords.
I really don't understand how lashwhips raise initiative. That doesn't seem to make any sense. Is it +1 Int or what?
Warriors are the same points cost and stats as the previous book, although their options have changed a bit in points. I honestly dont really see warrior armies doing that well, unfortunately. They still have the same weaknesses and limitations as last codex: they are too expensive for a T4 model. When each one costs a rhino with even basic upgrades, facing an army with lots of S8, (especially blasts) or tons of S6 multishot (hi eldar) will give you a very hard time. They dont seem to be very killy at range (3 S4 shots at 18" aint much to write home about) and making them good in CC bumps their cost to more than a terminator.
Lash whips add 3 to your initiative, rather than reduce your opponents to 1 (so if your I is 5, you pile in and strike at I8). Im not sure if the ability allows you to strike at I 4 when charging into cover though. From a fluff perspective it doesn't make much sense, but I do feel that the new rules are a definite nerf to the wielder and synergy of the army.
Medium of Death wrote:Do Warriors suck as badly as people are saying? Would running a Warrior centric list be very weak? It's more an aesthetic thing that I've had in mind since the last codex but I couldn't be bothered coverting or using finecast for lashwhips and boneswords.
Warriors are just way over costed for what they do. You need to spend Terminator-level points on them to make them anywhere near good in assault, and their shooting power is very 'meh'. They also don't have the survivability to last very long against any kind of sustained firepower.
Having said that, they will start to see play more often because most other Troops options have huge drawbacks, and cheap Synapse is desperately needed.
Eddtheman wrote:Lash whips add 3 to your initiative, rather than reduce your opponents to 1 (so if your I is 5, you pile in and strike at I8). Im not sure if the ability allows you to strike at I 4 when charging into cover though.
They don't, you need Flesh Hooks for that.
JohnnyElfSlayer wrote:
6. Despite losing out on the Rule book psychic powers, I quite like the Tyranid codex powers.
The Nid powers are pretty good on the whole. The main issue is that they're mostly very situational. With the changes to Zoanthropes and Tervigons, extra rolls for psychic powers are much harder to get now, just when we need them to most.
It's very easy to end up with several useless abilities spread across your army, such as The Horror when fighting Marines/Daemons, or Psychic Scream on a slow Tervigon. Other armies get to choose to roll on BRB tables to avoid this, but for some reason we don't.
JohnnyElfSlayer wrote:
8. I haven't hear many people talk about this, so maybe I'm missing something, but Boneswords seem to have improved.
Boneswords were nerfed. They used to ignore all armour, effective making them AP2. Now they're AP3, with no other huge benefit, and they're still costed more than a power fist. There's also no benefit for using 2 swords over 1 sword and a whip other than points.
Also, people keep mentioning Mawloc being "buffed" due to a points reduction and doing a second blast after the first for survivors, however:
1. He used to punish parking-lots and scatter them. Now, if he doesn't make room for himself, he just straight-up mishaps.
2. Mawloc also can't burrow until the 2nd turn if you start with him on-board, and you have to roll for him from reserves, he doesn't auto-return.
3. He also hits vehicles on side instead of rear armor like he used to making him much worse again.
Now, that said, I'm sure someone will be glad to quote this and then tell me how wrong my opinion is and how the book is crap and so on.
That was actualy a good post. What you miss imo is that without biomancy nids would be abysmal this edition but they took it and gave nothing back. Nids have no allies, no pods, no brb powers and only a few really fluffy rules (synapse, lictors, mawlocks, tervigon). They should be efficient and deadly, not because powergaming but it would fit the fluff and mood of the army, then they remove rerolls with STs and your Trygon from swift killer turns into a sloppy troll feel - wise. That Tervigon build you mention, it should have been nerfed a bit (only maybe though, and biomancy out would suffice for sure) but it was also extremly fluffy and shouldn't be nerfed that hard. Noone talks about how they want OP but just how more units should be viable and how the book should offer more vs the old one instead of being a step back. You also mention too much hype, didn't they at GW claim that they are going to fix the 5th edition book? It's hardly fixed, what would you expect if not massive dissapointment.
The book is playable ofc but vs what it should have been (and I'm not talking abou some unrealistic expectations or dreams of top tier) it is pretty bad.
I appreciate the compliment.
Biomancy has been a crutch for the codex for a long time and isn't what is, or should have been propping it up. Assault rules are what has mostly been the make-or-break factor for the army. Tyranids have always been a "get close and eat their faces" army and the 6th edition assault rules really kneecapped that. Now some of the changes made sense (random charge ranges are needed to offset pre-measuring to ensure people can't just park themselves outside of charge range for instance), but things like the Tau's ability to break the rules of overwatch really hurt the army.
Allies is a weird system and while most of it makes sense there are issues and honestly I can't see a way to give Tyranids allies. Genestealer cult dataslates perhaps, but not full allies with the other codexes. I see a lot of clamoring about the pods but I don't recall a lot of lists that used pods. If this book is basically a copy and paste (plus nerf bat) wouldn't that make pods still fairly useless since you can't assault out of them?
All armies should be deadly and efficient. They aren't though and that's one of the reasons I don't really use competitiveness as a measuring stick to say that a book is good or bad because competitive 40k is basically broken. There are just too many things stacked against the Nids to expect them to just come in and be competitive like people want right now. The assault rules, Tau and Eldar books all kick the army in the shins pretty hard and even if this book was better I don't think it'd really fix those issues.
The Tervigon needed a nerf of some kind, but they did get too zealous with it. The 30 gaunt requirement was a pretty good way to mitigate most of it because you'd need a lot of models to run that build, something you didn't really need before.
For the record, I don't recall GW claiming (at least publicly) that they were going to "fix" anything, and attribute that to "hype". Fans can't help but hype things. It's what fans do, they get excited and build something up and that almost always ends poorly when GW is involved because the final product is almost never what they wanted or expected. I don't blame people for being fans though, just noting that sometimes expectations get ahead of what the end result is and disappointment occurs.
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WhiteDog wrote: I don't understand your reasonning. What does it have to do with funding ?
They actually invested some money to build the crone / harpy kit, only to put completly useless stats on it. It has nothing to do with funding...
I will play tyranid, even with a "bad" codex, and I see some possible list altho it will never be tournament level (who cares ?) but please, don't make it seems like there is no blatant design flaw with some of the units, especially if you compare them to their tau/eldar/SM counterpart.
Releases have budgets. And since GW has stepped up the release schedule, they have smaller budgets than before. This means less kits overall. They converted some Finecast ones to plastic, plugged the hole for the Harpy and added in something new (because if we didn't get anything new people would likely flip their gak even more that they already are about "copy and paste" design). Stats have nothing to do with that.
2. Mawloc also can't burrow until the 2nd turn if you start with him on-board, and you have to roll for him from reserves, he doesn't auto-return.
3. He also hits vehicles on side instead of rear armor like he used to making him much worse again.
It does auto-return, after burrowing the Mawloc enters Ongoing Reserves. That's why Burrow can't be used on turn 1, as it would allow you to skip the roll for reserves.
They also added Ignores Cover to the attack, which is arguable more useful than hitting rear armour.
Watched two games yesterday, Nids versus Grey Knights and then Necrons. Took the flying anti-air bug, 3 of the exocrines, tyrant, deathleaper, and lots of hiveguard.
Not sure if the Grey Knight player hadn't looked at any of the rules for the new stuff, but he got absolutely wrecked. Exocrines were the mvp, they blew up the board. Hive guard and their ignore-everything guns took out what was huddling in cover. Big flying bug blew up a stormraven pretty fast. And deathleaper + SitW made all the psykers pretty sad pandas.
Second game against Necrons was a lot closer, but Tyranids won again. Less curbstomping since the Necrons took a lot of fliers and there was just the one harpy thing, but it took out two croissants over the course of the game. No psykers so SitW didn't do anything and Deathleaper got beat up by a bunch of wraiths+destroyer lord. Still, Necron shooting had to get close to do anything for the most part and that was the sweet spot for the Tyranids as well. They just out-shot them off the board.
Overall I wanna call Tyranids a mid-shooting army now in the same vein as Grey Knights and Necrons, but potentially better at it. I can see them suffering pretty bad against more long range armies like Eldar/Tau/IG, but doing fine against everyone else.
On the warrior front boneswords cost the same as a power weapon, and with a lash it's 20. Sure there expensive but run them behind gaunts with a venomthrope behind and 3+ cover is yours.
There are ways around this but if there shooting at warriors/venomthropes with ignor cover weapons there not shooting at the fex's or other MC's threat overload I feel is key.
First look oh copy n paste given time I'm finding tactics and synargy it's not top tier and mistakes will make you pay but very usable (think less Shooty de).
Sure there expensive but run them behind gaunts with a venomthrope behind and 3+ cover is yours.
Cover stoped being a viable protection option a long time ago . It was already weaker when helldrakes came out and after taudar , tau formation and D weapons cover is hardly a way to protect important models.
I think Grey Knights are the preferred enemy for Exocrines (well, all MEQ really), because Grey Knights basically sit at 24''. They can't drop an Exocrine before it gets into range as easily as the xenos armies.
Jesus, if only we still had pods. Exocrine in a pod for some surprise assault6, S7AP2 butsecs would be fantastic.
BlaxicanX wrote: I think Grey Knights are the preferred enemy for Exocrines (well, all MEQ really), because Grey Knights basically at 24''. They can't drop an Exocrine before it gets into range as easily as the xenos armies.
Jesus, if only we still had pods. Exocrine in a pod for some surprise assault6, S7AP2 butsecs would be fantastic.
It's still weird not hearing GK running S8 Autocannon dreads, but I guess they've become quite useless in this edition.
Just bought the codex today and spent the day reading it. And trying to understand what GW's thought process was behind this codex, because I don't understand it.
Four of the psychic powers are garbage, one is decent, two are good. Limiting powers to just codex, and making you randomly role instead of picking. Terrible combination.
Weird increases in the cost of certain units, which often were not good or overpowered to begin with. . Increases in point cost of certain units while at the same time nerfing their abilities now making the units overpriced and underpowered, tervigon is the prime example but swarmlord got hit too.
Removal of traits (scything talons change being a huge one) for no apparent reason. Changing some traits making them not very game effective.
No change in force organization chart. This was a huge, utter shock. I actually spent 10 minutes after reading the codex going back through it looking for something I missed. I figured I had to have missed something.
Tail weapons not getting smash effect ...... why?
The hideous instinctive behavior tables. This actually seems worse then the Chaos warp table. For no reason.
So much hope for this new codex, so much disappointment. I might still buy one exocrine box, and maybe a harpy box. But I won't buy anything else.
BlaxicanX wrote: I think Grey Knights are the preferred enemy for Exocrines (well, all MEQ really), because Grey Knights basically sit at 24''. They can't drop an Exocrine before it gets into range as easily as the xenos armies.
Jesus, if only we still had pods. Exocrine in a pod for some surprise assault6, S7AP2 butsecs would be fantastic.
I really wanted to be able to pod Tyrannofexes. Since they are either very short ranged shooters or ranged tank killers having an option to deep strike them would have been perfect.
2. Mawloc also can't burrow until the 2nd turn if you start with him on-board, and you have to roll for him from reserves, he doesn't auto-return.
3. He also hits vehicles on side instead of rear armor like he used to making him much worse again.
It does auto-return, after burrowing the Mawloc enters Ongoing Reserves. That's why Burrow can't be used on turn 1, as it would allow you to skip the roll for reserves.
They also added Ignores Cover to the attack, which is arguable more useful than hitting rear armour.
Missed that on the "Ongoing", however this was possible for last book, so is a nerf still.
I agree, ignore cover is awesome and makes way more sense, but Mawloc is now basically a troop killer instead of a vehicle parking lot killer, which means that without him being as effective and without Ymgarls I have no clue how on earth Tyranids are going to deal with back-line IG tanks.
lucasbuffalo wrote: without Ymgarls I have no clue how on earth Tyranids are going to deal with back-line IG tanks.
Flyrants are the best option, they can be in charge range on turn 2, as well as putting lots of S6 fire into side/rear armour when the opportunity arises. Crones can also Vector Strike them. Don't forget Onslaught; it can help a FMC move up to 36" and shoot in the same turn.
Failing that, Lictors/Deathleaper are a possibility. With their decent strength, Stealth and Rending they could be the new Ymgarls.
Besides, Tyranids already got a bunch of points reductions on heaps of units. What more do 'Nid players want? An auto-'I Win' Codex that all the WAAC players can high-five one another over.
I mean they've got the awesome long-ranged Exocrine that can just bombard units to pieces, the Harpy and Crone that really give the Hellturkey a run for its money (the Crone more than the Harpy, if I'm honest), a great set of really useful psychic powers (like Onslaught – what other army can do anything like Onslaught?), the Haruspex can just monster vehicles and infantry alike, the new bio-artefacts give players heaps of really cool options (like the amazingly versatile Ymgarl Factor), and the Venomthrope can shroud most of your army meaning that enemy shooting is toast, giving plenty of time for your Genestealers and Warriors to get into combat. Sure, some units did go up in price – Prime, Tervigons, Hive Guard – but those were crutch units that power-gamers relied on to win games, so now they’re just paying what they’re worth rather than getting ‘el cheapo super-creatures.
Tyranids are awesome now!
*shudders*
Sorry. I had to get that out of my system. For the record, everything in the above few paragraphs is utter nonsense. This new book is fething awful.
Tyran wrote: If Forgeworld is smart, they are going to make a mycetic pod resin model and put its rules in the next IA 4 as 40k approved.
I've been thinking that as well. I can see it happening. Maybe not in a reprint IA4, but in a supplement eventually yes.
Hoping for a supplement to fix the codex is a double edged sword though, esp the ones ive seen saying maybe theyll re add what they took out.
Are we glad they fixed it or mad they deliberately sold us crap for a codex so they could then sell us a fix, which they would be likely to repeat in future.
Calm down H.B.M.C. Just because Tyranids don't have some one-click-win 2++ rerolling save deathstar doesn't mean it's a bad codex.
We got a one point reduction for our 'gaunts! 5 point reductions across the board for our monsterous creatures! The possibilities for strong lists are flowing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rumbleguts wrote: No change in force organization chart. This was a huge, utter shock. I actually spent 10 minutes after reading the codex going back through it looking for something I missed. I figured I had to have missed something.
This is the biggest disappointment for me really. Not even the effort to do this. Old One Eye would be cool making Carnifexes troops. Or being able to join a brood like a Tyrant joins a guard. That would be neat.
Am going to be shot for saying that the codex isn't "that bad"
It's got a gak load of problems
THEY KILLED MY fething PARASITE OF MORTREX.
But aside from this, we can now fit nine carnifexes and 30 gaunts and a hive tyrant + 2 tyrant guard into 1500 point list.
Marine player: ok here's my army, a few tac squads, a dev squard, and 2 preds, oh and a storm raven.
'nids player: here's mine.
*places nine carnifexes on the field*
xttz wrote: I just noticed that the Ymgarl Factor only ever works in the assault phase, meaning you can't ever use the 2+ armour save against shooting attacks.
Better yet, you can't use the same ability two turns in a row, meaning that even when you do get to use it you only get the 2+ save half of the time.
Tyran wrote: I said IA4 because I believe it is the next IA to be updated.
Yes it is the FW Tyranid book, but at the same time if you look at the plot of IA4 the Tyranids in that story don't arrive from orbit, so whilst it would be a 'Nid unit in a 'Nid book, it'd be a little out of context.
ClockworkZion wrote: Biomancy has been a crutch for the codex for a long time and isn't what is, or should have been propping it up. Assault rules are what has mostly been the make-or-break factor for the army. Tyranids have always been a "get close and eat their faces" army and the 6th edition assault rules really kneecapped that. Now some of the changes made sense (random charge ranges are needed to offset pre-measuring to ensure people can't just park themselves outside of charge range for instance), but things like the Tau's ability to break the rules of overwatch really hurt the army.
You listed some of the exact reasons for Tyranids to get a solid buff instead of the nerf they got.
ClockworkZion wrote: Allies is a weird system and while most of it makes sense there are issues and honestly I can't see a way to give Tyranids allies. Genestealer cult dataslates perhaps, but not full allies with the other codexes.
Yes I fully agree, they should never have allies, and that is another reason the army should get stronger, gain more flexibility etc. It didn't.
ClockworkZion wrote: I see a lot of clamoring about the pods but I don't recall a lot of lists that used pods. If this book is basically a copy and paste (plus nerf bat) wouldn't that make pods still fairly useless since you can't assault out of them?
Not only you could drop Zoanthrope in it, having a solid chance of delivering it into range of whatever you wanted to kill, you could also drop Dakkafex with 12 S6 shots, Devilgants and obviously, if there was Doom, deliever him (her/ it). It's a matter of finding the right spot and in majority of games I was able too, generaly found them usefull even in 6th. Spores served as a cover for freshly dropped units, denied objectives or blocked pathways, also noone says you have to drop them directly into enemy fire. Not to mention GW could make it useful in the new book, if they wanted to.
ClockworkZion wrote: All armies should be deadly and efficient. They aren't though and that's one of the reasons I don't really use competitiveness as a measuring stick to say that a book is good or bad because competitive 40k is basically broken.
Yes but in different ways. IG should barrage you into the mud, Tyranids should kill you dead if they get you. You can't nerf CC with them like no rerolls on ST, worse boneswords or making Genestealers the idiots they are now, especialy if you're not going to make up for it.
ClockworkZion wrote: There are just too many things stacked against the Nids to expect them to just come in and be competitive like people want right now. The assault rules, Tau and Eldar books all kick the army in the shins pretty hard and even if this book was better I don't think it'd really fix those issues.
Again, that's why the book is bad, it was GWs job to mitigate those issues and they didn't. Allow them shooting into CC, make them faster, give them proper deepstrike or outflank possibilities, I don't know. Maybe the isssues are hard to fix but they could have done a better job. I really think I could do a better job tbh.
ClockworkZion wrote: For the record, I don't recall GW claiming (at least publicly) that they were going to "fix" anything, and attribute that to "hype". Fans can't help but hype things. It's what fans do, they get excited and build something up and that almost always ends poorly when GW is involved because the final product is almost never what they wanted or expected. I don't blame people for being fans though, just noting that sometimes expectations get ahead of what the end result is and disappointment occurs.
Ok after reading 160 pages of rumors thread I can't recall wheher this was interview, statement or just a rumour, not sure here.
the shrouded lord wrote: Am going to be shot for saying that the codex isn't "that bad"
It's got a gak load of problems
THEY KILLED MY fething PARASITE OF MORTREX.
But aside from this, we can now fit nine carnifexes and 30 gaunts and a hive tyrant + 2 tyrant guard into 1500 point list.
Marine player: ok here's my army, a few tac squads, a dev squard, and 2 preds, oh and a storm raven.
'nids player: here's mine.
*places nine carnifexes on the field*
So you have 1 source of Synapse with ablative wounds on it. Marive player's Dev squad and Predator just starts shooting. And in looks like 3 rounds, your only source of Synapse is dead and you effectively will lose the game.
It makes me sad that Raveners aren't mentioned at all with the changes in these 6th edition threads.. do people just really not use them so much that they're just ignored? They're my favourite models next to Warriors, and the pure nerf they got (no more rerolls whatsoever, lost an attack so bonus attack from 2 CCWs doesn't do anything, and spinefists are weaker) bothers me to no end, especially when the Red Terror comes back in and suffers immediately from its own lack of rerolls. Really, my largest beef with the codex as it is, is the changes to the CCWs, and how said change doesn't reflect on the Tyranids that use them at all (look at the Tervigon), it's as if they were a last second decision. Mawlocs are looking nice because they never had any weapons to begin with!
Turret49 wrote: Really, my largest beef with the codex as it is, is the changes to the CCWs, and how said change doesn't reflect on the Tyranids that use them at all (look at the Tervigon), it's as if they were a last second decision. Mawlocs are looking nice because they never had any weapons to begin with!
It's one of the things that bothers me quite a bit, like the unexplainable points increase that Rippers received. I mean, now things with one set of ScyTals get nothing. I love my two Venom Cannon/Scytal Carnifex, and my two ancient RT-era Screamer Killers (double ScyTals). Now on the former they do almost literally nothing, and on the latter they net me a whopping +1 attack. And we can't combine HTH bioweapons any more because of reasons.
But no, it's ok. Some things got cheaper. The books totally cool. We just haven't playtested it for months so we can't tell yet.
Not sure if this was already posted or not but I think this about sums up how garbage nids are now since synapse is such a killer and not much can be done about besides a prime hiding ina squad of 3 fexes with an adl at max range and a venom behind the fexes to provide a 2+ cover, but that wont really work vs barrage, tau, serpent shields, or anything fast enough to get over the adl like white scar bikers. I suppose there is always bubble wrap but its not too hard to just kill the bubble wrap or venom to cripple them before taking out the synapse and winning the game cuz nids dont understand that biting themselves will kill them, that those silly guardsmen really arent thay scary and you shouldnt be running away from them, or that there really arent a bunch of invisibile bullets flying through the air and they should quit ducking, without a god telling them that it really isnt that bad.
A GumyBear wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQQGcgJ5PZ0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Not sure if this was already posted or not but I think this about sums up how garbage nids are now since synapse is such a killer and not much can be done about besides a prime hiding ina squad of 3 fexes with an adl at max range and a venom behind the fexes to provide a 2+ cover, but that wont really work vs barrage, tau, serpent shields, or anything fast enough to get over the adl like white scar bikers. I suppose there is always bubble wrap but its not too hard to just kill the bubble wrap or venom to cripple them before taking out the synapse and winning the game cuz nids dont understand that biting themselves will kill them, that those silly guardsmen really arent thay scary and you shouldnt be running away from them, or that there really arent a bunch of invisibile bullets flying through the air and they should quit ducking, without a god telling them that it really isnt that bad.
Hahahaha you can tell he is soooooo mad at the new Nid dex. That was actually pretty fun to watch.
In all seriousness I almost feel like he tried to make a gakky list. Knowing that synapse is crucial with just a glance should make you take more than 2 synapse creatures total. I feel that Nids is going to have very few different builds but that they are not completely screwed. Though, I say this without having access to the codex yet.
A GumyBear wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQQGcgJ5PZ0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Not sure if this was already posted or not but I think this about sums up how garbage nids are now since synapse is such a killer and not much can be done about besides a prime hiding ina squad of 3 fexes with an adl at max range and a venom behind the fexes to provide a 2+ cover, but that wont really work vs barrage, tau, serpent shields, or anything fast enough to get over the adl like white scar bikers. I suppose there is always bubble wrap but its not too hard to just kill the bubble wrap or venom to cripple them before taking out the synapse and winning the game cuz nids dont understand that biting themselves will kill them, that those silly guardsmen really arent thay scary and you shouldnt be running away from them, or that there really arent a bunch of invisibile bullets flying through the air and they should quit ducking, without a god telling them that it really isnt that bad.
That was the most entertaining bat rep I've ever seen. The dude's scorn for the codex dripped from every dice roll. LOL! Wow. Their nerfing of the tau/eldar army in the second game was hilarious.
It seems like he has Dominion, but hadn't used it to extend his synapse range, which would have helped against a lot of that instinctive behavior.
He also didn't try spamming the horror, which can lock down missilesides and even the riptide.
He also is trying it against one of the best competitive lists out there - that hardly means the list is unplayable. Try some CSM lists against that eldar list sometime, see how well they do.
The problem with the dex isnt that its not competitive (even though it isnt really) There will probably be 1 or 2 decent competitve lists, so those players are fine (and not the ones doing most of the complaining despite everyone saying so).
The problem is you have to choose between monobuild to have a chance or play fun/fluffy lists that almost have zero chance at winning. Those are the players complaining.
For example i dont like the models holding weapons, i think they look stupid, but since melee either got left broken, or broken more -
no fix for stealers, warriors, raveners, trygon tunnels
loss of parasite, doom, pods
no brb powers, no allies or compensating rule to balance it
nerfs to claws which effect trygons and melee fex badly
effective nerf even to the cheaper haumagaunts (loss of rerolls and more expensive upgrades more than cancels out fleet +3" and 1 point base cheaper)
The ridiculous synapse nerf which effects melee most of all as they eat themselves! As if melee was majorly overpowered to begin with, it was barely hanging on!
Costing carnis to what they should have been anyway before the nerf doesnt make them amazing, just average.
The dedicated (!) anti flyer is weaker than the flying hive tyrant were almost forced to take and collapses due to how fragile it is.
So basically the premier close combat army now has to play a boring shooty monobuild to have a chance at winning, or play fun.fluffy lists for your oponent to destroy at leisure
Personal favorite unit is the hive crone. That thing looks really good. The haywire effect makes the tentaclids a terrifying prospect for flyers. Not terrible in melee if you want to smash vehicles and the creatures got a good shooting attack for infantry also. So its useful no matter the enemy.
The Exocrine is a fantastic unit to protect Hive Crones by killing anti-air units and just about any others. 6 str 7 ap2 shots does not suck, and when it moves you can mitigate its lower bs by firing the large blast. Its unfortunate that it is a heavy support. It seems like a Tyranid Vindicator in the way its USED.
The new codex will change how people have to play. It means buying more models probably but existing lists look like they will work. Carnifexes are surely better and people may go back to using them so old timers might have some goof news too.
Though, having taken a look at the codex I honestly do see some slight potential but I feel you will have a harder time playing to the strengths of this codex than it should be.
But I think that we could start seeing hive tyrants actually walking with some hive guard with mandatory dominion for some easy guaranteed synapse. I was thinking with a heavy venom cannon, but, with BS1(if im seeing this right) i dont know if any guns(other than TLdevs) are really going to be worth it.
Why is the tenteclid a "terrifying prospect for flyers"? They pen on a 6 and Crones are BS3 to boot. You'll be taking less than one hullpoint off a flyer per turn on average without vector striking.
- - - - - -
The best bright spot I see for 'nids is the big middle finger they give to psychic deathstars. Deathleaper+Shadow in the Warp equals a leadership 5 psyker on average (4 for a perfect roll on the d3).
The 1000 point list that I've been using for the past few year is actually no longer legal. Why? Because, without adding or removing ANY units, the list has actually gone UP in points.
I saved 130 points between the carnifex point drop, zoanthrope point drop and the termagaunt drop.
But I've lost 205 points from the Prime increase, bonesword&lash increase, tervigon increase, and having to pay for toxin sacs now.
So in all my list has become 75 points more expensive.
Thanks Games Workshop. I can reeeeeeeally feel the savings in points here.
H.B.M.C. wrote:I love my two Venom Cannon/Scytal Carnifex, and my two ancient RT-era Screamer Killers (double ScyTals). Now on the former they do almost literally nothing, and on the latter they net me a whopping +1 attack. And we can't combine HTH bioweapons any more because of reasons.
But no, it's ok. Some things got cheaper. The books totally cool. We just haven't playtested it for months so we can't tell yet.
Hate to be the one to say it, but no they don't. Carnifexes lost an attack from their profile, so the +1 from 2 sets of CC biomorphs only puts you on par with what you had before.
PrinceRaven wrote: Just noticed something today; Hive Guard, a unit described as a "gun-beast", has a better weapon skill than ballistic skill. This baffles me.
This is evolution. It appears that some units improve, some gain factors (Ymgarl) from other units.
Medium of Death wrote: What's the deal with Boneswords now? Instant death on a wound roll to 6? Does taking two boneswords improve that or just give you an extra attack?
Just gives you an extra attack.
Basically, if you have one CC biomorph there is almost no reason to take anything other than Scything Talons if you want the bonus attack. Scything Talons are basically worthless on their own. They're essentially an (AP6 *finger twirl*) extra CCW.
I have to come back here and eat my words. Currently Tyranids can not be played within a competitive environment.
They do not have the range/durability or the bodies to put down to take on the firepower of Tau or Eldar.
I think they could do ok against other armies but it will still potentially be a struggle.
Such a shame as I was really looking forward to playing Tyranids again.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And your Carnifexes punch each other to death.
But no, we keep forgetting: A bunch of units went down in cost. The Codex is perfect.
Don't forget the price increases on units like Hive Tyrants and Ripper Swarms, just to make the Codex fair for everyone else to play against. I'd hate to make my Eldar-playing friend rage-quit in frustration as he drowns under the might of my maxed out Ripper Swarm unit.
L0rdF1end wrote: I have to come back here and eat my words. Currently Tyranids can not be played within a competitive environment.
They do not have the range/durability or the bodies to put down to take on the firepower of Tau or Eldar.
I think they could do ok against other armies but it will still potentially be a struggle.
Such a shame as I was really looking forward to playing Tyranids again.
Medium of Death wrote: What's the deal with Boneswords now? Instant death on a wound roll to 6? Does taking two boneswords improve that or just give you an extra attack?
Just gives you an extra attack.
Basically, if you have one CC biomorph there is almost no reason to take anything other than Scything Talons if you want the bonus attack. Scything Talons are basically worthless on their own. They're essentially an (AP6 *finger twirl*) extra CCW.
Ah, cheers for the clarification. Not really sure what the GW "Design Team" were going for with all these changes.
streamdragon wrote: Hate to be the one to say it, but no they don't. Carnifexes lost an attack from their profile, so the +1 from 2 sets of CC biomorphs only puts you on par with what you had before.
Not a big deal. Things got cheaper, didn't they? This Codex is a Tau-breaker!!!
I'm having trouble keeping the faux-enthusiasm and sarcasm up. It's draining.
I can't even believe I bought it, honestly, or was seriously considering starting Tyranids again. Maybe if I had paid more attention to the Tyranid rumor thread the past few days I could have dodged a $50 bullet...I've been working late and spending what little free time I have for the past week talking to my maybe future girlfriend, so I didn't see any of the copy/pasted info from the new book. I expected it to be bad, but I expected a lazy copy/paste of the 5th edition rulebook with point cost tweaks (all decreases) and the new units added in with rules designed to sell them. I really didn't think GW had the balls to make it any worse. But by God they did.
Spellbound wrote: He also is trying it against one of the best competitive lists out there - that hardly means the list is unplayable. Try some CSM lists against that eldar list sometime, see how well they do.
The difference is that 5th edition Nids could beat that list.
HBMC I gather that you are repeating "things got cheaper" in a mocking tone to make fun of those that keep saying it is the reason that things aren't so bad?
Honestly I see some potential in the codex. I don't think it's going to be brainless, I think it will take a lot of skill to play but that's the way it is.
Also, everyone keeps saying "WHAT WILL THEY DO AGAINST TAU AND ELDAR AND TAUDAR AND ELDAU?!?!?!?!?!?!?!"
Really, you're going to bring up THE best lists? What about against marines? Chaos? Orks? Are they that screwed against those? There's other armies than tau and eldar, and there are other games than tournament games. The list looks like it CAN do alright in MOST environments so why worry so much?
Spellbound wrote: HBMC I gather that you are repeating "things got cheaper" in a mocking tone to make fun of those that keep saying it is the reason that things aren't so bad?
Honestly I see some potential in the codex. I don't think it's going to be brainless, I think it will take a lot of skill to play but that's the way it is.
Also, everyone keeps saying "WHAT WILL THEY DO AGAINST TAU AND ELDAR AND TAUDAR AND ELDAU?!?!?!?!?!?!?!"
Really, you're going to bring up THE best lists? What about against marines? Chaos? Orks? Are they that screwed against those? There's other armies than tau and eldar, and there are other games than tournament games. The list looks like it CAN do alright in MOST environments so why worry so much?
Is there something wrong with wanting to be able to compete with the best? I notice you throw Chaos and Orks, generally considered two of the weakest armies out there under the bus, as though being able to compete with them is some milestone. For a new book to come out in complete disarray, with next to none of the old edition's issues fixed, with almost 0 new fluff, with changes that make almost no sense and nerfs to things that didn't call for nerfs is ridiculous. For people to accept it or somehow martyr themselves over the book ("We just HAVE to make it work! It takes SKILL!") is almost insanity.
I can't even believe I bought it, honestly, or was seriously considering starting Tyranids again. Maybe if I had paid more attention to the Tyranid rumor thread the past few days I could have dodged a $50 bullet...I've been working late and spending what little free time I have for the past week talking to my maybe future girlfriend, so I didn't see any of the copy/pasted info from the new book. I expected it to be bad, but I expected a lazy copy/paste of the 5th edition rulebook with point cost tweaks (all decreases) and the new units added in with rules designed to sell them. I really didn't think GW had the balls to make it any worse. But by God they did.
I wouldn't hold my breath while waiting on that answer.
Yeah. I predicted this going badly as soon as the news leaked that models had been taken OUT of the dex. After the troop profiles were leaked it basically confirmed it for me, I think I may have just been about the first one to post in that thread asking... why the hell is everybody so happy??
Return your book. You will get a refund. On the offchance that they try to say no, cite false advertising. It might be shaky but between undelivered model promises such as strong anti-air capabilities, the faked White Dward battle report, and the phrase "all units playable - all units desirable" being used by GW to describe this dex, they probably won't bother arguing it
Just looking at the kits and it seems like this is a great time to get into Tyranids if you love kitbashing and general converting. Bad for the wallet though. Very bad.
This is the THE perfect time to get into Nids. I imagine eBay will be flush with people dumping their armies. So the book is sub-par for tournaments, I still think it's a cool army and I'd still play it despite the rules, I don't play in tournaments, and in friendly games will still be fun to run.
I've never been on the other side of a poor release to be honest. I played old Grey Knights, then our book was good, 6th Edition made it a bummer, oh well. Every other army I just buy, paint, play, think of anther, and move on. I've always wanted to start Tyranids, and this will be the time to snipe some good nid deals online.
Sorry to those that hate the book, and I understand the anger and frustration at such a poor showing. Nothing great about having an army you've probably had forever continually dumped on.
Matt1785 wrote: This is the THE perfect time to get into Nids. I imagine eBay will be flush with people dumping their armies. So the book is sub-par for tournaments, I still think it's a cool army and I'd still play it despite the rules, I don't play in tournaments, and in friendly games will still be fun to run.
I've never been on the other side of a poor release to be honest. I played old Grey Knights, then our book was good, 6th Edition made it a bummer, oh well. Every other army I just buy, paint, play, think of anther, and move on. I've always wanted to start Tyranids, and this will be the time to snipe some good nid deals online.
Sorry to those that hate the book, and I understand the anger and frustration at such a poor showing. Nothing great about having an army you've probably had forever continually dumped on.
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