I'll save you the wait. Going through the Nid codex (as a Tau player) I saw nothing but buffs... For Tau. Losing Biomancy really hurts Nids. The Crone actually manages to make Broadsides better at removing air threats.
As it was explained to me the Death Leaper has a power that says all shots against it must be made as snap fires.
You cannot do many things if all you are allowed to do is snapfire against this beast you can hardly see.
Nem wrote: Well. Won't really know how good or bad power wise it is for a few months.
Do you not own a copy?
I do, I've played with it, and I know its not half as bad as some people make out. Annoyingly you've also posted on the tactics thread where other players are also visibly wandering how people thought it was that bad.
As it was explained to me the Death Leaper has a power that says all shots against it must be made as snap fires.
You cannot do many things if all you are allowed to do is snapfire against this beast you can hardly see.
That is correct, I ran him today. Few biker units waisted shots trying to get rid of him. Best utility though will probably be guiding Mawlocs in for accurate blasts (I wasn't running Mawlocs in lieu of running new units).
And considering that the Tyranids weren't even in the galaxy at the time of the Horus Heresy
Not true . The legions fought against tyranid scout fleet that was imprisoned by one of the eldar races .Fenris krakens and Catachan devils are left overs from tyranids scout fleets and Fenris fauna was the same it is now , even durning the golden age.
And considering that the Tyranids weren't even in the galaxy at the time of the Horus Heresy
Not true . The legions fought against tyranid scout fleet that was imprisoned by one of the eldar races .Fenris krakens and Catachan devils are left overs from tyranids scout fleets and Fenris fauna was the same it is now , even durning the golden age.
Source on fenris and catachan please.
There is in-universe speculation about Krakens and Devils being Tyranids, but it's just speculation from inside the setting.
However, I personally doubt this. Tyranids have a unified aesthetic. Chitinous plates, fleshy bits, a short, powerful head, six (or eight if winged) limbs, and hooves if they're not slithering, entirely airborne, or otherwise don't walk on legs,.
I may be wrong, but that speculation dates quite a bit back, no? Before Nids more or less all conformed to the same aesthetics?
Another speculation I remember was that many of the more incurable plagues, dating back to when humanity was still Earth-bound, may have had a Tyranid origin.
Nem wrote: Well. Won't really know how good or bad power wise it is for a few months.
Do you not own a copy?
I do, I've played with it, and I know its not half as bad as some people make out. Annoyingly you've also posted on the tactics thread where other players are also visibly wandering how people thought it was that bad.
As it was explained to me the Death Leaper has a power that says all shots against it must be made as snap fires.
You cannot do many things if all you are allowed to do is snapfire against this beast you can hardly see.
That is correct, I ran him today. Few biker units waisted shots trying to get rid of him. Best utility though will probably be guiding Mawlocs in for accurate blasts (I wasn't running Mawlocs in lieu of running new units).
I really don't understand why people shoot death leaper. Just charge him, 3 T4 wounds with 5+ save. Whoppity doo he has 5 attacks none of which are power weapons. 10 Guardsmen can beat him up
I've been seeing the age old problem with people playing against Nids; they are afraid that if they touch them they'll suddenly explode. A riptide has very good odds of beating down a hive tyrant in combat, and that's taking a charge from a unwounded Tyrant. Be aggressive, Nids are squishy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Savageconvoy wrote: I'll save you the wait. Going through the Nid codex (as a Tau player) I saw nothing but buffs... For Tau. Losing Biomancy really hurts Nids. The Crone actually manages to make Broadsides better at removing air threats.
I did the same as an Eldar player, the only things that worried me in the Nid book before were Iron arm T9 tyrants, hive guard and Tervigons making a billion scoring units and they nerfed all of those and added nothing. This dex just made it that much easier, as instinctive behaviour pretty much makes the army useless once the synapse is out of the way.
Seriously though. The codex is fine. The problem is the really overpowered codices like Grey Knights, Necrons, Blood Angels, Tau and Eldar. If GW made it up to that level, people would be bitching that it was OP. As it happens, they made a balanced, well-written codex and so everybody complained it was a massive nerf despite that fact that it's a million times better than the last 'dex (which was itself better than the godawful 4th ed 'dex).
To recap:
+Hive Crone, one of the best flying monstrous creatures in the game.
+Carnifexes, Mawlocs and Tyrannofexes get significant points decreases.
+Zoanthropes andVenomthropes both get points decreases and massive buffs.
+Some pretty nifty (if expensive) bio-artifacts.
+Exocrine gives us much-needed anti-terminator firepower.
+The Red Terror is back!
+Pyschic powers are pretty good.
+Termagaunts are now dirt cheap.
+Hormagaunts are also cheaper, although giving them Toxin Sacs brings them to the same cost as before.
+Crushing Claws are now actually good (and make up for MCs loss of Armourbane by default).
+Tyrant Guard can take Crushing Claws.
+Venom Cannons are no longer restricted when penetrating vehicle armour.
+Mawlocs now more destructive.
+Old One Eye and Deathleaper are now HQ, which is cool.
+Trygon Primes can be heavily upgraded.
+Biovores are great now.
-Slight points increases on a few units, the only really significant one being the Tervigon.
-No BRB powers.
-No more Mycetic Spores (although they were useless on most units anyway).
-Ymgarl Genestealers are gone (not much use to begin with).
-Parasite of Mortrex is gone (totally useless anyway, who cares?).
-Doom of Malan'Tai is gone (OK, this one IS kinda sad).
What exactly is the problem again?
Wow. This is like the crème de la crème of the bad posts in here so far. I mean, there is people in here talking about how the dex is a fine release because even with the nerf it has enough competitive units to build a strong list or two. But your post? It's like you are wilfully oblivious.... I was willing to see where you went with this, as soon as I read "Hive Crone one of the best MC's in the game" I continued on simply out of incredulity to what one person could convince themselves of to justify there codex purchase. You did not disappoint. Extremely nifty artifacts? Crushing Claws are BETTER?? You even listed Psychic Powers as an improvement from the last dex??? Just keep sipping the kool-aid mate.
Again, unfunny image macros, and not supplying any real argument beyond "lol it sux".
Try again.
You said this in a response to a message full of information and presented with solid reasoning behind their point of view.
You then proceeded to respond to the next person who pushed an argument, with a non-funny link and a non-existent argument, all because he used the word "Competitive" which is beyond hypocritical. As stated:
40K has never, NEVER been intended as a majorly competitive game. Quite frankly I find the concept of playing any game, tabletop or otherwise, "competitively" to be utterly slowed, but when the CREATORS of the game have outright stated that it's designed for casual/fluffy games, it's laughable. 40K's selling point has never been amazing, revolutionary gameplay, it's the universe and the backstory (and the models) that everybody loves, and is why people play the game. As a similar example, take EarthBound; gameplay-wise it's an unremarkable RPG. What sells it is the quirky world, funny characters and charming atmosphere (and a certain nightmare-inducing eldritch abomination).
TL;DR: If you'r eplaying 40K because you want a competitive, perfectly balanced game then you're playing the wrong game, and should probably go play chess instead.
The discussion is about opinions on the competitive nature of the dex, feel free to share that it works great from a casual perspective, but when you clearly have no idea about the competitive side of gameplay, don't write up a ridiculous list of reasons on how great it is competitively, and then tell anybody who disagrees that their competitive opinions are worthless because 40k isn't meant intended to be competitive (because GW doesn't host tournaments or anything). You are wasting everybody's time, including your own.
My perspective on the new dex is somewhat in the middle. I feel the people talking about the strength of the codex might just be mistaken, it is as powerful as before if not more so. I think the people talking about the strength of individual units are 100% correct however, and the nerf of so many units, the indifference to so many other useless ones, and the removal of more, makes this dex a terrible release. We have been pushed towards one style of play, regardless if it performs better than the last dex did competitively, we have lost so many playstyle options and even playable units, the only people I could see supporting this release are powergamers. But hey what would you know about that? Mycetic spores were useless on everything right? I mean, because Devilgaunts / Zoanthropes / Dakkafex in a pod "was pretty much useless anyway" right? Zoanthropes losing the spore was written up as buffed unit in your little list, which pretty much sums up how much worthwhile information you have to add to this topic.
SickSix wrote: How many people crying "the sky is falling" have actually played with the new book?
I'm not really in the business of complaining on forums for days on end but I did get a game in and it was terrible. I played vs a casual Eldar list with no Serpents, no Knight and 350 pts tied up in footslogging Wraithguard that didn't even get to use their guns of Just Take Everything Off The Table because everything was already off the table by the time they got into range.
SickSix wrote: How many people crying "the sky is falling" have actually played with the new book?
I'm not really in the business of complaining on forums for days on end but I did get a game in and it was terrible. I played vs a casual Eldar list with no Serpents, no Knight and 350 pts tied up in footslogging Wraithguard that didn't even get to use their guns of Just Take Everything Off The Table because everything was already off the table by the time they got into range.
They mopped you up that badly? not that I doubt it, but would you mind sharing your list, it's pretty subjective otherwise because you could have been running a bunch of rippers genestealers and raveners for all we know....
Nem wrote: Well. Won't really know how good or bad power wise it is for a few months.
Do you not own a copy?
I do, I've played with it, and I know its not half as bad as some people make out. Annoyingly you've also posted on the tactics thread where other players are also visibly wandering how people thought it was that bad.
The problem here is that 'not that bad' is still bad. It's about Chaos Space Marines level. The problem is it's not good either. Not even 'not that good', just 'not good'. It is, at best, a sideways step, if not the backwards step doomsayers have been crying, from the 5th edition codex. It's a simple revision of the 5th edition codex, with some point changes here and there, and a few baffling decisions (scything talons what the feth) put in for good measure.
The biggest telltale sign is they did not attribute it to a single author, but the GW design team. We know all books are a team effort, they've repeatedly said as much in Q&A's. We'll see if the Guard codex is the same, but if subsequent books start getting individually noted authors again, it's glariingly obvious no one on the design team wanted to fall on this sword and take responsibility for how it turned out.
And again, it's not that the book is flat out terrible. It's that it is, at beast about as good as the last book, which basically killed the Tyranid community and was widely accepted as being one of the least powerful books in the game with almost no build options. Sitting at the same level with a few tweaks is not worthy of praise of any kind.
What did the nids trade actualy from old to new , ignoring the every new codex model shift.
Doom, pods , biomancy and no need for synaps vs Exorcine and maybe a points drop on somethings , but considering one has to run bad units now to have synaps all the time , the points drop is hardly felt . But am not a nid player , I could be missing more stuff.
If we're resorting to slinging unfunny image macros around now, then I have the perfect response to that:
Seriously though. The codex is fine. The problem is the really overpowered codices like Grey Knights, Necrons, Blood Angels, Tau and Eldar. If GW made it up to that level, people would be bitching that it was OP. As it happens, they made a balanced, well-written codex and so everybody complained it was a massive nerf despite that fact that it's a million times better than the last 'dex (which was itself better than the godawful 4th ed 'dex).
To recap:
+Hive Crone, one of the best flying monstrous creatures in the game.
+Carnifexes, Mawlocs and Tyrannofexes get significant points decreases.
+Zoanthropes andVenomthropes both get points decreases and massive buffs.
+Some pretty nifty (if expensive) bio-artifacts.
+Exocrine gives us much-needed anti-terminator firepower.
+The Red Terror is back!
+Pyschic powers are pretty good.
+Termagaunts are now dirt cheap.
+Hormagaunts are also cheaper, although giving them Toxin Sacs brings them to the same cost as before.
+Crushing Claws are now actually good (and make up for MCs loss of Armourbane by default).
+Tyrant Guard can take Crushing Claws.
+Venom Cannons are no longer restricted when penetrating vehicle armour.
+Mawlocs now more destructive.
+Old One Eye and Deathleaper are now HQ, which is cool.
+Trygon Primes can be heavily upgraded.
+Biovores are great now.
-Slight points increases on a few units, the only really significant one being the Tervigon.
-No BRB powers.
-No more Mycetic Spores (although they were useless on most units anyway).
-Ymgarl Genestealers are gone (not much use to begin with).
-Parasite of Mortrex is gone (totally useless anyway, who cares?).
-Doom of Malan'Tai is gone (OK, this one IS kinda sad).
What exactly is the problem again?
This is a prime example of someone who rarely played the 5th codex.
Biovores are great now? So you're implying they were bad..
Mycetic spores were useless? What....
Ymgarl genestealers were useless? What.....?
Tervigons got a little more then a slight points increase.
Why is losing doom sad if pods are useless?
I personally don't hate the new Dex but it could have been designed a lot better...
Coming from a 3rd ed crons codex players perspective I have to say that the new nids dex is awful since it suffers from the same thing that made the cron dex awful (IB and phase out). The fact that you can basically ignore all the threats from the army and just focus on killing certain units to remove the entire army is an atrocious ability and shouldnt exist ever. E.x. why should I bother being worried about this swarm of gants and carnies etc. When all I have to do is focus on killing those very few and fairly weak (for what they need to do) synapse creatures and the majority of those gants/gaunts and other threats just go away completely anyways? In the old cron dex the same thing happened e.x. why bother fighting that crazy c'tan god and gunning down those indestructible monoliths when you can just kill the bog standard infantry and win in a turn unless they are hiding and not doing anything.
Seriously though. The codex is fine. The problem is the really overpowered codices like Grey Knights, Necrons, Blood Angels, Tau and Eldar. If GW made it up to that level, people would be bitching that it was OP. As it happens, they made a balanced, well-written codex and so everybody complained it was a massive nerf despite that fact that it's a million times better than the last 'dex (which was itself better than the godawful 4th ed 'dex).
To recap:
+Hive Crone, one of the best flying monstrous creatures in the game.
+Carnifexes, Mawlocs and Tyrannofexes get significant points decreases.
+Zoanthropes andVenomthropes both get points decreases and massive buffs.
+Some pretty nifty (if expensive) bio-artifacts.
+Exocrine gives us much-needed anti-terminator firepower.
+The Red Terror is back!
+Pyschic powers are pretty good.
+Termagaunts are now dirt cheap.
+Hormagaunts are also cheaper, although giving them Toxin Sacs brings them to the same cost as before.
+Crushing Claws are now actually good (and make up for MCs loss of Armourbane by default).
+Tyrant Guard can take Crushing Claws.
+Venom Cannons are no longer restricted when penetrating vehicle armour.
+Mawlocs now more destructive.
+Old One Eye and Deathleaper are now HQ, which is cool.
+Trygon Primes can be heavily upgraded.
+Biovores are great now.
-Slight points increases on a few units, the only really significant one being the Tervigon.
-No BRB powers.
-No more Mycetic Spores (although they were useless on most units anyway).
-Ymgarl Genestealers are gone (not much use to begin with).
-Parasite of Mortrex is gone (totally useless anyway, who cares?).
-Doom of Malan'Tai is gone (OK, this one IS kinda sad).
What exactly is the problem again?
Wow. This is like the crème de la crème of the bad posts in here so far. I mean, there is people in here talking about how the dex is a fine release because even with the nerf it has enough competitive units to build a strong list or two. But your post? It's like you are wilfully oblivious.... I was willing to see where you went with this, as soon as I read "Hive Crone one of the best MC's in the game" I continued on simply out of incredulity to what one person could convince themselves of to justify there codex purchase. You did not disappoint. Extremely nifty artifacts? Crushing Claws are BETTER?? You even listed Psychic Powers as an improvement from the last dex??? Just keep sipping the kool-aid mate.
Again, unfunny image macros, and not supplying any real argument beyond "lol it sux".
Try again.
You said this in a response to a message full of information and presented with solid reasoning behind their point of view.
You then proceeded to respond to the next person who pushed an argument, with a non-funny link and a non-existent argument, all because he used the word "Competitive" which is beyond hypocritical. As stated:
40K has never, NEVER been intended as a majorly competitive game. Quite frankly I find the concept of playing any game, tabletop or otherwise, "competitively" to be utterly slowed, but when the CREATORS of the game have outright stated that it's designed for casual/fluffy games, it's laughable. 40K's selling point has never been amazing, revolutionary gameplay, it's the universe and the backstory (and the models) that everybody loves, and is why people play the game. As a similar example, take EarthBound; gameplay-wise it's an unremarkable RPG. What sells it is the quirky world, funny characters and charming atmosphere (and a certain nightmare-inducing eldritch abomination).
TL;DR: If you'r eplaying 40K because you want a competitive, perfectly balanced game then you're playing the wrong game, and should probably go play chess instead.
The discussion is about opinions on the competitive nature of the dex, feel free to share that it works great from a casual perspective, but when you clearly have no idea about the competitive side of gameplay, don't write up a ridiculous list of reasons on how great it is competitively, and then tell anybody who disagrees that their competitive opinions are worthless because 40k isn't meant intended to be competitive (because GW doesn't host tournaments or anything). You are wasting everybody's time, including your own.
My perspective on the new dex is somewhat in the middle. I feel the people talking about the strength of the codex might just be mistaken, it is as powerful as before if not more so. I think the people talking about the strength of individual units are 100% correct however, and the nerf of so many units, the indifference to so many other useless ones, and the removal of more, makes this dex a terrible release. We have been pushed towards one style of play, regardless if it performs better than the last dex did competitively, we have lost so many playstyle options and even playable units, the only people I could see supporting this release are powergamers. But hey what would you know about that? Mycetic spores were useless on everything right? I mean, because Devilgaunts / Zoanthropes / Dakkafex in a pod "was pretty much useless anyway" right? Zoanthropes losing the spore was written up as buffed unit in your little list, which pretty much sums up how much worthwhile information you have to add to this topic.
Yeah, one look at that post and I have to say "Thanks for taking the time from your alternate dimension!" But seriously, there's so much about that post that is just plain... wrong. Blood Angels, overpowered? LOL. Hive Crones don't hold a candle to even Flyrants, Zoanthropes didn't get "massively buffed" by any means, the bio-artifacts suck, Termagants went down 1pt but lost a lot of utility and power in the process, OOE and Deathleaper moving to HQ means they probably will get used even less now, price increases were significant on more than just the Tervigon (Tyranid Prime anyone?), Mycetic Spores were a lynch pin unit for many of our best units (Devilgaunts, Dakkafexes, Zoanthropes, Doom, etc) and Ymgarl Genestealers were considered one of our best Elites choices before.
Nem wrote: Well. Won't really know how good or bad power wise it is for a few months.
Do you not own a copy?
I do, I've played with it, and I know its not half as bad as some people make out. Annoyingly you've also posted on the tactics thread where other players are also visibly wandering how people thought it was that bad.
The problem here is that 'not that bad' is still bad. It's about Chaos Space Marines level. The problem is it's not good either. Not even 'not that good', just 'not good'. It is, at best, a sideways step, if not the backwards step doomsayers have been crying, from the 5th edition codex. It's a simple revision of the 5th edition codex, with some point changes here and there, and a few baffling decisions (scything talons what the feth) put in for good measure.
The biggest telltale sign is they did not attribute it to a single author, but the GW design team. We know all books are a team effort, they've repeatedly said as much in Q&A's. We'll see if the Guard codex is the same, but if subsequent books start getting individually noted authors again, it's glariingly obvious no one on the design team wanted to fall on this sword and take responsibility for how it turned out.
And again, it's not that the book is flat out terrible. It's that it is, at beast about as good as the last book, which basically killed the Tyranid community and was widely accepted as being one of the least powerful books in the game with almost no build options. Sitting at the same level with a few tweaks is not worthy of praise of any kind.
As someone who plays CSM, I'm feeling they might actually be below that, maybe DA level.
MWHistorian wrote: Here's an honest question. For people who actually bought the codex, do you think it was worth the price?
For example, I have the SM and SOB codex and think they are worth the price. The Inquisitor book...not so much.
Yep! But I love a challenge. The whining and complaining is hilarious to me, the last thing I want is a 'top tier', win every game, easy button codex.
Every win will be forcibly wrested from the dice gods, and the currency of my victory will be the the piled bodies of my dead.
What about the complaining from people who started playing Tyranids last edition deliberately for the fact that they were not a top tier codex and also love a challenge, and are upset with the release of the new codex not due to power levels but due to the fact that we have a book with less units in it than the last dex, and no longer have any transports what so ever and are pretty much limited to one style of play?
I feel sorry for everyone who play competitively, I dont , so I actually find that its a major improvement from last codex. Perhaps its true that in the super competitive environment this new codex doesnt quite have what it take to hold his own, but I'm still not convinced of that one.
I find that its gained all sorts of usefull tactics that it didnt have before.
True we lost great stuff:
Doom 'o Malantai, Biomancy and Mycetic Spore!
The Tervigon got a big nerf (its still useable though)
Even The Trygons lost their re-roll to hit and Tyranid prime got slapped with a point increase plus we lost the old adversary bubble. Swarmlord lost his re-roll passed invul and cost 5points more (he did becomme a lvl3 psyker, and got bs4 with possibility of Warpblast tho) Instinctive behavior sucks a bit more than before so synapse controle is more important. A few other things but these are the big ones mostly.
All of these really blow and certainly wish we could purely just have them back. I know I'll occasionally be playing with the old codex as allies with my friends, its gonna be a lot of fun We find that a few custom rules can really balance a game out better if the people involved can agree on it
We did get some major improvements on many dudes though, including: Devilgaunts, Venomthrope, Lictors, Mawlocs, Dakkafex, Tyranofex and Harpy.
Some good buffs on: Flyrants, Tyrant guard, Zoanthrope, Shrikes. We also gained the Crones and Exocrines which are very nice.
Some light upgrade due to meta and codex synergy: Genestealer and warriors got more appealing due to Tervigon nerf and Instinctive Behaviours changes, now we need something to fill the troops choice when before it was a no brainer. They were too frail so they were just getting shot off the board, well, now they're still kinda frail but now we have access to much more defensive arsenal, mostly due to Venomthrope but partially simply through more mass, cheaper across the board means more guys, so oversaturation of target means the little 100pts Warriors team gets ignored, Shrikes and Lictors benefit from this tactic as well. I love the fact that Tau and Eldar are succeptible to pinning and fear, space marines ignore fear but not pinning. This codex can really force a lot of Ld tests and Genestealers and Warriors both force many pinning tests at long range, contributing to the well being of the Hive. Both are also unaffected by Instinctive Behaviour, Tyranid Warriors and Shrikes really helps it actually.
For those that say that "the best defense is a good offence" you all get a candy this codex since we shoot much stronger than before and then pin the ones that didnt get shot up too much.
more FMC means better maneuverability, I am looking forward to play between 2-5 FMC per turn
Flanking 30x Devilgaunts is gonna be amazing!
Mawlocs will just keep the opponent on his toes, wondering whats gonna get hit by the massive Wurm coming out of below with two Str6 Ap2, Ignore Cover, Large Blast!!!
Lictors are... are actually playable....I'm..... I'm...... I'm just so happy...I've waited so long for this....Yaaaayyyy!!!
Overall more options then before, even with loss of mycetic spore.
The Tervigon got a big nerf (its still useable though)
Even The Trygons lost their re-roll to hit and Tyranid prime got slapped with a point increase plus we lost the old adversary bubble. Swarmlord lost his re-roll passed invul and cost 5points more (he did becomme a lvl3 psyker, and got bs4 with possibility of Warpblast tho) Instinctive behavior sucks a bit more than before so synapse controle is more important. A few other things but these are the big ones mostly.
You've just described a fairly significant set of downgrades to Tyranids as a whole, and then go on to dismiss these issues with a wave of "a few custom rules can balance a game". Sorry, but just because you're going to house rule it doesn't suddenly make the flaws of this new Codex go away. I'm happy that your group is so open that bad Codices can be fixed with house rules - my group spent years playing our own re-written version of 40K, so I know what that's like - but not everyone is like you. Some people are just going to be playing pick up games at their local store - not even competitive tournaments - and they're stuck with this gak hole of a Codex for the foreseeable future.
Some of the other things you said just aren't right. Zoanthropes didn't get buffed. They lost book powers, and they have all-or-nothing powers thanks to psychic brotherhood. Many units got cheaper, but their upgrades got more expensive. This is a bad Codex through and through, and the fact that people are out and out denying that bothers me. This isn't a matter of opinion or how one "feels" about the book. This Codex is simply worse from an objective and mathematical standpoint, with units receiving no benefits and rules being removed wholesale in return for nothing.
fartherthanfar wrote: I feel sorry for everyone who play competitively, I dont , so I actually find that its a major improvement from last codex. Perhaps its true that in the super competitive environment this new codex doesnt quite have what it take to hold his own, but I'm still not convinced of that one.
I find that its gained all sorts of usefull tactics that it didnt have before.
True we lost great stuff:
Doom 'o Malantai, Biomancy and Mycetic Spore!
The Tervigon got a big nerf (its still useable though)
Even The Trygons lost their re-roll to hit and Tyranid prime got slapped with a point increase plus we lost the old adversary bubble. Swarmlord lost his re-roll passed invul and cost 5points more (he did becomme a lvl3 psyker, and got bs4 with possibility of Warpblast tho) Instinctive behavior sucks a bit more than before so synapse controle is more important. A few other things but these are the big ones mostly.
All of these really blow and certainly wish we could purely just have them back. I know I'll occasionally be playing with the old codex as allies with my friends, its gonna be a lot of fun We find that a few custom rules can really balance a game out better if the people involved can agree on it
We did get some major improvements on many dudes though, including: Devilgaunts, Venomthrope, Lictors, Mawlocs, Dakkafex, Tyranofex and Harpy.
Some good buffs on: Flyrants, Tyrant guard, Zoanthrope, Shrikes. We also gained the Crones and Exocrines which are very nice.
Some light upgrade due to meta and codex synergy: Genestealer and warriors got more appealing due to Tervigon nerf and Instinctive Behaviours changes, now we need something to fill the troops choice when before it was a no brainer. They were too frail so they were just getting shot off the board, well, now they're still kinda frail but now we have access to much more defensive arsenal, mostly due to Venomthrope but partially simply through more mass, cheaper across the board means more guys, so oversaturation of target means the little 100pts Warriors team gets ignored, Shrikes and Lictors benefit from this tactic as well. I love the fact that Tau and Eldar are succeptible to pinning and fear, space marines ignore fear but not pinning. This codex can really force a lot of Ld tests and Genestealers and Warriors both force many pinning tests at long range, contributing to the well being of the Hive. Both are also unaffected by Instinctive Behaviour, Tyranid Warriors and Shrikes really helps it actually.
For those that say that "the best defense is a good offence" you all get a candy this codex since we shoot much stronger than before and then pin the ones that didnt get shot up too much.
more FMC means better maneuverability, I am looking forward to play between 2-5 FMC per turn
Flanking 30x Devilgaunts is gonna be amazing!
Mawlocs will just keep the opponent on his toes, wondering whats gonna get hit by the massive Wurm coming out of below with two Str6 Ap2, Ignore Cover, Large Blast!!!
Lictors are... are actually playable....I'm..... I'm...... I'm just so happy...I've waited so long for this....Yaaaayyyy!!!
Overall more options then before, even with loss of mycetic spore.
I fail to see how the Harpy was buffed more than the Flyrant in your list, but whatever.
Or how Zoanthropes were buffed at all, with the loss of spores and the mechanics changing to one deny or one fail roll being all rolls have failed. I'd pay 50 points more for spore back and less risk of missing all 3 shots when rolling to hit.
Major improvements from a competitive standpoint would suggest they went up a level of playability, which the Harpy and Lictor did not - they still suffer the same weakness as always for slightly cheaper. They are still completely uncompetitive and not something to be listed as a major selling point. The shrikes are somewhat the same, yes their cheaper but they are still just non-scoring warriors, and largely outclassed by the also terrible ravener who beats them for everything bar Synapse.
While mostly the rest of your list of changes is accurate, I think you are missing the bigger picture - while we have more playable models in the book, most are crammed in to Heavy Support slot, every other slot has a massive stand-out choice. But the main thing we lost is a playstyle - that one model, the spore, was Tyranids only transport. Now we are fairly restricted to lumbering slowly across the board. Deep strike is no more common than before, Trygon's were always the HS option for that and Flyrants always flap ahead, but now there is no further deep striking units like Doom, Zoanthropes, Dakkafex, the closest we can get is outflanking termagants no comparison to a deepstriking devilpod. So while the last book was not packed full of viable playstyle options, we at least had our 2. This book has half as many.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Units that avoided being hit by the Instinctive Behaviour nerf do not count as improved units. Also the reason for this dex being bad is far from competitive reasons. Quite the opposite. Almost everything you listed is almost only relevant to the competitive scene.
... i lost what I was trying to say... damn it.. technology can be a cruel mistress. oh well
When i claimed major improvements I meant compared to before, Can you say 70 pts less per tyranofex, 40pts less per dakkafex, 30pts less per Mawlocs with better rules. if you cant agree that that is a major upgrade on all the important levels then you need to get yourself checked.
The Harpy got a better upgrade than the flyrant cuz he didnt lose anything, got cheaper, aaaand got stronger. The Flyrant did get much cheaper and stronger, but he did also lost biomancy, which is huge, so overall better upgrade on harpy through complete lack of nerf.
sure we lost some deepstrike capabilities due to loss of mycetic spore, that doesnt mean we cant do decent list they will be all in yo face coming out of mostly nowhere on second turn, remember that Deathleaper and lictors are now a decent choice and Mawocs too(better than the old Trygons BTW) , and now we can flank as many units as we have Flyrants instead of just one per army. Also Genestealer can make a comeback in this codex. Plus due to our better shooting we can even have the option of keeping some points to support the forward force, something we couldnt really do before. Plus we have better FMC than last codex and FMC are awesome to support deeptriking army.
see, we still have deepstrike option in this codex, we do have more choices to make then before though since there is no clear winner in the Troops selection.
Zoanthropes did lose deepstrike capabilities, but still got buffs (better chances to get +1 to deny the witch, less dices to roll when casting Warp Blast 2 or 3 times) and cheaper (especially since we arent paying for a spore). lost biomancy and ap1 but they are still playable, its true that this one should be considered minor buff instead of good upgrade due to loss but its puts the Zoan on the same level as the rest of the choices in the elite slots. I will agree the elite slot isnt anywere near as attractive as last codex but that fine, more points to spend on FMC and HS.
The Tervigon got a big nerf (its still useable though)
Even The Trygons lost their re-roll to hit and Tyranid prime got slapped with a point increase plus we lost the old adversary bubble. Swarmlord lost his re-roll passed invul and cost 5points more (he did becomme a lvl3 psyker, and got bs4 with possibility of Warpblast tho) Instinctive behavior sucks a bit more than before so synapse controle is more important. A few other things but these are the big ones mostly.
You've just described a fairly significant set of downgrades to Tyranids as a whole, and then go on to dismiss these issues with a wave of "a few custom rules can balance a game". Sorry, but just because you're going to house rule it doesn't suddenly make the flaws of this new Codex go away. I'm happy that your group is so open that bad Codices can be fixed with house rules - my group spent years playing our own re-written version of 40K, so I know what that's like - but not everyone is like you. Some people are just going to be playing pick up games at their local store - not even competitive tournaments - and they're stuck with this gak hole of a Codex for the foreseeable future.
Some of the other things you said just aren't right. Zoanthropes didn't get buffed. They lost book powers, and they have all-or-nothing powers thanks to psychic brotherhood. Many units got cheaper, but their upgrades got more expensive. This is a bad Codex through and through, and the fact that people are out and out denying that bothers me. This isn't a matter of opinion or how one "feels" about the book. This Codex is simply worse from an objective and mathematical standpoint, with units receiving no benefits and rules being removed wholesale in return for nothing.
I wasnt dismissing them at all, I was actually doing the complete opposite of that, I was acknowledging them, that's why I took the time to mention them, if I wanted to dismiss them I would have just said something like "so we lost some little stuff" or something
I did also mention that I would only play custom rules (old codex as allies) occasionally which means that I will be playing most of the time with the real codex.
If you would have taken the time to read the rest of my post you would have also seen that I validate my calm attitude towards the significant loss we took in this new codex by going over some of the awesome upgrades we got. You know since we cant just focus on what we lost for a clear "through and through" picture of the new codex right?
I dont get how you would be complaining about the codex if you dont play super competitive, for regular power level game (ready to fight 2 to maybe even 3 Riptides in a list, not more) then i find we can really give a great fight with this codex
MWHistorian wrote: Here's an honest question. For people who actually bought the codex, do you think it was worth the price?
For example, I have the SM and SOB codex and think they are worth the price. The Inquisitor book...not so much.
Yep! But I love a challenge. The whining and complaining is hilarious to me, the last thing I want is a 'top tier', win every game, easy button codex.
Every win will be forcibly wrested from the dice gods, and the currency of my victory will be the the piled bodies of my dead.
What about the complaining from people who started playing Tyranids last edition deliberately for the fact that they were not a top tier codex and also love a challenge, and are upset with the release of the new codex not due to power levels but due to the fact that we have a book with less units in it than the last dex, and no longer have any transports what so ever and are pretty much limited to one style of play?
Pretty hilarious right.
Yes. Last codex was fun for me, this codex is fun as well, but with reduced points costs. I'm just enjoying the game I play, being amused by the 'world is ending we have no wraithtide' sorrow that is so prevalent.
The best design philosophy for GW now would be to make every army and unit overpowered, thus making no army or unit overpowered.
If every army is Taudar and Daemons level, then people stop complaining about the Tau. If every unit is Riptide, Wave Serpent, or Hellturkey level good, the griping about those two armies vanishes.
Pretending nothing is wrong and continuing to make mediocre armies and units does nothing to fix the problems we already have. So may as well throw all restraint out the window and go completely over the top.
Kain wrote: The best design philosophy for GW now would be to make every army and unit overpowered, thus making no army or unit overpowered.
If every army is Taudar and Daemons level, then people stop complaining about the Tau. If every unit is Riptide, Wave Serpent, or Hellturkey level good, the griping about those two armies vanishes.
Pretending nothing is wrong and continuing to make mediocre armies and units does nothing to fix the problems we already have. So may as well throw all restraint out the window and go completely over the top.
I'm gonna give you three guess's to figure out why that's not a lucrative or even possible idea for games workshop.
Why is the Venomthrope mentioned as some sort of a super saving buff giver of the nid codex .the edition drips in anti cover stuff and it is realy not that hard to kill it .
Kain wrote: The best design philosophy for GW now would be to make every army and unit overpowered, thus making no army or unit overpowered.
If every army is Taudar and Daemons level, then people stop complaining about the Tau. If every unit is Riptide, Wave Serpent, or Hellturkey level good, the griping about those two armies vanishes.
Pretending nothing is wrong and continuing to make mediocre armies and units does nothing to fix the problems we already have. So may as well throw all restraint out the window and go completely over the top.
I'm gonna give you three guess's to figure out why that's not a lucrative or even possible idea for games workshop.
I was always in favor of GW being bought out by an actually competent company like Hasbro anyway.
When i claimed major improvements I meant compared to before, Can you say 70 pts less per tyranofex, 40pts less per dakkafex, 30pts less per Mawlocs with better rules. if you cant agree that that is a major upgrade on all the important levels then you need to get yourself checked.
An upgrade means a unit got better, a points reduction only means it got cheaper. In the case of fexes they were so severely overcosted last codex anyway the point reduction only brings them into balance cost/use wise with the rest of the choices, its not a great unit, just now its priced appropriately.
I'll give you mawloc got better though.
As for everyone saying about people complaining the codex is bad because it isnt top tier, or overpowered, thats not why what makes it a bad codex. There will no doubt be 1 or 2 good builds that are competitive, who cares? those who are in it for that scene just move around at will.
No. what makes it a bad codex is its almost identical to the last one, almost all copy pasted (so hardly anything new yet charged for a new codex) most units/play choices are practically an auto lose and unplayable since you need certain things to have a balanced chance at a win - no im not talking tournament, just in general, a game isnt fun unless both sides have a chance to win.
For example i hate the models that carry weapons, i thnk they look stupid, a like nids that are actually creatures, fighting with creatures weapons (claws, talons, teeth, spit/pulse/spine weapons etc) not carrying guns or swords!
But to play that list im severely hamstringing my self and almost gurunteeing a loss since melee units either got left alone with no change to already underpowered or fragile options (raveners, genestealers, melee warriors, shrikes), got point increases (tyranid prime 50% increase for no upgrade im especially looking at you!) or even nerfed (no pods, 2 good characters removed, ib feed - the one melee units use - being a crippling blow to them all and the main melee weapon got an undeed nerf - no rerolls from scything talons. Even horms that got cheaper got the upgrades increased to cancel it and got a huge nerf from the ib as well as a smaller one from the scything talons. Not to mention loss of book powers.
So yes there are competitive list options if you like a mono build but if you like a variety of builds of fun/fluffy lists you are playing with a severe handicap against every other army, not least of which is because of no allies to fix gaps like every other army has access to!
Its true we still dont have the fix for the lack of allies but that is likely to be fix when the codex supplement will come out.
if a model is exactly is as powerfull as before yet he is cheaper then that means he is proportionally stronger. that is why i claim that a decrease in points is an upgrade.
its funny how it feels like you talk about the carnifex actually getting priced back to cost/usable as if its not awesome. Im psycked about using Dakkafexs now.
I payed 60$ for my codex and given it is Games-Workshop, and I didnt t have the last codex, I felt satisfied with this codex, i like the fact that its hard backed. the stories might be similar but that fine, the feel was good before and still is now. If you want to talk about builds, then I can say that i find much more choice then last codex now, I'm seeing all sorts of potentials.
Some unit upgrades got better priced, like toxin sacs for Warriors and Shrikes, and Cluster Spines for Tervigon and even Harpy, although the Biomorph Wargear is pretty bad. I never considered Warriors or even genestealers before, well Im considering them now. 100 points for a Troop unit that can shoot 36" Large Blast, Pinning, that give Synapse and can take bolter fire pretty decently. Actually they are as hard to kill as terminators vs bolter fire yet they only cost 30pts each.
lots of our old worthless stuff got pointed more appropriately and now we get to try them without feeling like your shooting yourself in the foot for choosing them.
I, for one, am not happy. Games workshop sold me a product. They did NOT say that I would require an additional purchase in the form of a "dataslate" and personnaly will wait until some one like minded (but more nice) person posts it online, which considering, probably will hapon. if worst comes to worst, and I am forced to puchase this abomination, I will have to go in-store, as I can't make purchases off the inter-webs. DAMN MY 14-NESS!
fartherthanfar wrote: Its true we still dont have the fix for the lack of allies but that is likely to be fix when the codex supplement will come out.
if a model is exactly is as powerfull as before yet he is cheaper then that means he is proportionally stronger. that is why i claim that a decrease in points is an upgrade.
its funny how it feels like you talk about the carnifex actually getting priced back to cost/usable as if its not awesome. Im psycked about using Dakkafexs now.
I payed 60$ for my codex and given it is Games-Workshop, and I didnt t have the last codex, I felt satisfied with this codex, i like the fact that its hard backed. the stories might be similar but that fine, the feel was good before and still is now. If you want to talk about builds, then I can say that i find much more choice then last codex now, I'm seeing all sorts of potentials.
Some unit upgrades got better priced, like toxin sacs for Warriors and Shrikes, and Cluster Spines for Tervigon and even Harpy, although the Biomorph Wargear is pretty bad. I never considered Warriors or even genestealers before, well Im considering them now. 100 points for a Troop unit that can shoot 36" Large Blast, Pinning, that give Synapse and can take bolter fire pretty decently. Actually they are as hard to kill as terminators vs bolter fire yet they only cost 30pts each.
lots of our old worthless stuff got pointed more appropriately and now we get to try them without feeling like your shooting yourself in the foot for choosing them.
Some of what you say is really accurate and on the ball, the other half you really miss, I've noticed this with a lot of your posts.
Carnifexi are friggin sweet, they are definitely better than that guy gave them credit for.
I have no idea what you mean in the paragraph about codex. You didn't have the last book but you bought this one because it's hard backed and looks prettier? That's nice. On to the actual logic stuff, What do you mean by cluster spines got better? They were FREE before and Tervigon got more expensive? You talk about considering Warriors now like they somehow got better, just FYI they were "100 points for a Troop unit that can shoot 36" Large Blast, Pinning, that give Synapse and can take bolter fire pretty decently, actually they are as hard to kill as terminators vs bolter fire yet they only cost 30pts each" in the last codex, and they are just as bad in this one, this isn't an improvement to the unit at all. Absolutely nothing worthless got pointed appropriately. Mawloc's, Dakkafexe's and Tyranno's were playable in the last book, far from worthless, while the REALLY worthless units like Pyrovore, Raveners, Rippers & Genestealers remain unchanged or worse. Old One Eye got a decent point reduction and is still way overpriced, just like Lictors, although the real fix needed for Lictor's does not involve points, they need to be much cheaper to be worthwhile, regardless of how many times you say otherwise. A 3 man Lictor squad is the fastest way to lose 200 points, there is literally not a single squad you can build for 200 points that dies as easy. I rank them #3 worst unit in the codex after Rippers and Pyrovore at #1 & #2 respectively.
fartherthanfar wrote: ... i lost what I was trying to say... damn it.. technology can be a cruel mistress. oh well
When i claimed major improvements I meant compared to before, Can you say 70 pts less per tyranofex, 40pts less per dakkafex, 30pts less per Mawlocs with better rules. if you cant agree that that is a major upgrade on all the important levels then you need to get yourself checked.
The Harpy got a better upgrade than the flyrant cuz he didnt lose anything, got cheaper, aaaand got stronger.
The Flyrant did get much cheaper and stronger, but he did also lost biomancy, which is huge, so overall better upgrade on harpy through complete lack of nerf.
sure we lost some deepstrike capabilities due to loss of mycetic spore, that doesnt mean we cant do decent list they will be all in yo face coming out of mostly nowhere on second turn, remember that Deathleaper and lictors are now a decent choice and Mawocs too(better than the old Trygons BTW) , and now we can flank as many units as we have Flyrants instead of just one per army. Also Genestealer can make a comeback in this codex.
Plus due to our better shooting we can even have the option of keeping some points to support the forward force, something we couldnt really do before.
Plus we have better FMC than last codex and FMC are awesome to support deeptriking army.
see, we still have deepstrike option in this codex, we do have more choices to make then before though since there is no clear winner in the Troops selection.
The Tyrannofex and Carnifex were so overpriced that they were useless as units. Bringing them down to a reasonable price isn't an improvement, its fixing a mistake.
The reduction in the cost of the Mawloc was nice, and unexpected.
Not really sure the genestealer can make a comeback. They are still extremely easy to kill with fire and scything talons for 4 points a model is ridiculous. The Horror will be useful with Broodlord if you can manage to have him get line of sight to the unit in your previous turn and not get him killed during your opponent's turn. That the Broodlord is still going to be an effective Toughness 4 (average toughness of the brood) makes him barely harder to kill then the genestealers. And he is massively more expensive.
We did get some better shooting, although I still wonder at Hive Guard getting a reduced BS and a price increase at the same time.
I have some better feelings about the codex now then I did when I first read it. However, the Instinctive Behavior tables went to far. If the 1 - 3 effect only occurred on a 1, then the tables wouldn't be bad. But if you are trying to run a swarm then you have to take a lot of synapse, which is reducing your swarm. Since the only synapse creature you can bury in a brood is the now bizarrely overpriced Tyranid Prime, all your opponent needs to do is hunt your synapse creatures. Kill a few of those and watch the swarm defeat itself. Its a great adaptation of the fluff into the rules, trouble is, very little of the positive fluff seems to appear in the codex.
To everybody complaining: If you hate this codex so much, and you think you honestly know better than the goddamn creators of the game you all pretend to like as an excuse to moan, then apply for a job as a GW codex writer and make a better codex yourself. Or play a different game and stop whining about how anybody who doesn't consider GW the devil incarnate are corporate sheep who need educating. All the bitching in the world isn't going to change anything. Either go and get gak done yourselves, or get lost and stop complaining. Becvause complaining will make no difference whatsoever. At all. If anything, it will make things worse; if I was a GW manager I'd be pretty sick of the constant whining by now and would be going out of my way not to give into your demands. You are not entitled to have the game rules written to your exact demand; you are not the creators. The only thing they "owe" you is products that don't contain warp-anthrax.
But then this whole site is basically a more unified, highly pretentious version of /tg/, convinced of its only intellectual supeirority and with an utterly slowed hipster, entitled hivemind. Heck, the Tyranid Hivemind is more agreeable than most of you. I really don't know why I bother with this forum.
Squigsquasher wrote: To everybody complaining: If you hate this codex so much, and you think you honestly know better than the goddamn creators of the game you all pretend to like as an excuse to moan, then apply for a job as a GW codex writer and make a better codex yourself. Or play a different game and stop whining about how anybody who doesn't consider GW the devil incarnate are corporate sheep who need educating. All the bitching in the world isn't going to change anything. Either go and get gak done yourselves, or get lost and stop complaining. Becvause complaining will make no difference whatsoever. At all. If anything, it will make things worse; if I was a GW manager I'd be pretty sick of the constant whining by now and would be going out of my way not to give into your demands. You are not entitled to have the game rules written to your exact demand; you are not the creators. The only thing they "owe" you is products that don't contain warp-anthrax.
But then this whole site is basically a more unified, highly pretentious version of /tg/, convinced of its only intellectual supeirority and with an utterly slowed hipster, entitled hivemind. Heck, the Tyranid Hivemind is more agreeable than most of you. I really don't know why I bother with this forum.
You seem to not understand how a free market works. If you're a store manager and everyone is complaining...maybe you should listen or risk losing your customers. Oh wait, that's exactly what's happening.
The creators of the game also made rules for mutilators and Penitent Engines. Just sayin'.
SickSix wrote: How many people crying "the sky is falling" have actually played with the new book?
I'm not really in the business of complaining on forums for days on end but I did get a game in and it was terrible. I played vs a casual Eldar list with no Serpents, no Knight and 350 pts tied up in footslogging Wraithguard that didn't even get to use their guns of Just Take Everything Off The Table because everything was already off the table by the time they got into range.
They mopped you up that badly? not that I doubt it, but would you mind sharing your list, it's pretty subjective otherwise because you could have been running a bunch of rippers genestealers and raveners for all we know....
I admit I had a Lictor and 4 Devourer Warriors
Apart from that:
Flyrant (swooped in on turn 2, did gak all, got grounded by the first scatter laser pointed its way and finished off by jetbikes)
Tervigon (rolled 1,2,2 on first spawning, did 1 wound on Avatar with dessicators, then got sliced in half)
Zoanthrope (tried to babysit Termagants, but didn't make it to turn 2)
30 Termagants (did random things all game because any synapse that moved into their range died before next turn)
20 Hormagaunts (flamer fodder)
2 Hive Guard (the only unit that really did anything - blew up 2 War walkers)
Mawloc (killed 3 Wraithguard coming in)
Dakkafex (died to massed shuriken fire)
Exocrine (died to War Walkers on turn 1 before even firing)
My opponent had the Avatar, a Jetseer, 2x6 Jetbikes, 15 Wraithguard, 3 War Walkers, Wraithlord.
Squigsquasher wrote: To everybody complaining: If you hate this codex so much, and you think you honestly know better than the goddamn creators of the game you all pretend to like as an excuse to moan, then apply for a job as a GW codex writer and make a better codex yourself. Or play a different game and stop whining about how anybody who doesn't consider GW the devil incarnate are corporate sheep who need educating. All the bitching in the world isn't going to change anything. Either go and get gak done yourselves, or get lost and stop complaining. Becvause complaining will make no difference whatsoever. At all. If anything, it will make things worse; if I was a GW manager I'd be pretty sick of the constant whining by now and would be going out of my way not to give into your demands. You are not entitled to have the game rules written to your exact demand; you are not the creators. The only thing they "owe" you is products that don't contain warp-anthrax.
But then this whole site is basically a more unified, highly pretentious version of /tg/, convinced of its only intellectual supeirority and with an utterly slowed hipster, entitled hivemind. Heck, the Tyranid Hivemind is more agreeable than most of you. I really don't know why I bother with this forum.
Squigsquasher wrote: To everybody complaining: If you hate this codex so much, and you think you honestly know better than the goddamn creators of the game you all pretend to like as an excuse to moan, then apply for a job as a GW codex writer and make a better codex yourself. Or play a different game and stop whining about how anybody who doesn't consider GW the devil incarnate are corporate sheep who need educating. All the bitching in the world isn't going to change anything. Either go and get gak done yourselves, or get lost and stop complaining. Becvause complaining will make no difference whatsoever. At all. If anything, it will make things worse; if I was a GW manager I'd be pretty sick of the constant whining by now and would be going out of my way not to give into your demands. You are not entitled to have the game rules written to your exact demand; you are not the creators. The only thing they "owe" you is products that don't contain warp-anthrax.
But then this whole site is basically a more unified, highly pretentious version of /tg/, convinced of its only intellectual supeirority and with an utterly slowed hipster, entitled hivemind. Heck, the Tyranid Hivemind is more agreeable than most of you. I really don't know why I bother with this forum.
If you hate this forum so much, and you think you honestly know better than the goddamn admins, then register a website and make a better forum yourself. Or use a different forum and stop whining about how anybody who doesn't agree with you is a slowed, entitled hipster. All the bitching in the world isn't going to change anything. Either go and get gak done yourself, or get lost and stop complaining. Because complaining will make no difference whatsoever. At all. If anything, it will make things worse; if I was a slowed hipster I'd be pretty sick of the constant whining by now and would be going out of my way not to give into your demands. You are not entitled to have threads written to your exact demand; you are not the only user here. The only thing Dakka "owes" you is posts that don't contain goatse links.
the shrouded lord wrote: Wait, wraithguard are good? Are they only good if you give them D scythes? Or are they good with cannons?
That depends on what you need them for, though D-scythes are preferred at the moment because the current strategies like lots of models on the board. Scytheguards are also more or less assault proof.
nwns wrote: I really don't know why I bother with this forum.
I have no idea either. A thread asking for people's thoughts gets. . .people's thoughts. Are you shocked that people disagree with you or that "your thoughts" did not apply only to you personally?
nwns wrote: I really don't know why I bother with this forum.
I have no idea either.
A thread asking for people's thoughts gets. . .people's thoughts.
Are you shocked that people disagree with you or that "your thoughts" did not apply only to you personally?
The book is not good.
Does that bother you?
[sarcam=the shrouded lord/]NO! we have codex that surpasses even the 4th edition in pure awesomeness! In fact, did you even notice all of the new fluff? So much new story!
[\sarcam]
fartherthanfar wrote: Its true we still dont have the fix for the lack of allies but that is likely to be fix when the codex supplement will come out.
if a model is exactly is as powerfull as before yet he is cheaper then that means he is proportionally stronger. that is why i claim that a decrease in points is an upgrade.
its funny how it feels like you talk about the carnifex actually getting priced back to cost/usable as if its not awesome. Im psycked about using Dakkafexs now.
I payed 60$ for my codex and given it is Games-Workshop, and I didnt t have the last codex, I felt satisfied with this codex, i like the fact that its hard backed. the stories might be similar but that fine, the feel was good before and still is now.
If you want to talk about builds, then I can say that i find much more choice then last codex now, I'm seeing all sorts of potentials.
Some unit upgrades got better priced, like toxin sacs for Warriors and Shrikes, and Cluster Spines for Tervigon and even Harpy, although the Biomorph Wargear is pretty bad.
I never considered Warriors or even genestealers before, well Im considering them now. 100 points for a Troop unit that can shoot 36" Large Blast, Pinning, that give Synapse and can take bolter fire pretty decently. Actually they are as hard to kill as terminators vs bolter fire yet they only cost 30pts each.
lots of our old worthless stuff got pointed more appropriately and now we get to try them without feeling like your shooting yourself in the foot for choosing them.
No offense intended, but this explains quite a lot.
And "lots of our old stuff" being pointed correctly is being generous. That applies almost exclusively to HS options, with things like Warriors, Raveners, Shrikes, and Genestealers sitting all but unchanged since their last iteration. Meanwhile, Ripper swarms (and their flying variant) get MORE expensive. In what world do these two things not build the foundation for "they clearly had no frelling idea what to do with this codex"? For crying out loud, this codex actually made the Pyrovore LESS useful!
nwns wrote: I really don't know why I bother with this forum.
I have no idea either.
A thread asking for people's thoughts gets. . .people's thoughts.
Are you shocked that people disagree with you or that "your thoughts" did not apply only to you personally?
The book is not good.
Does that bother you?
Indeed,
This book is good, I'm even going to say that its very good... and not explain why
Does that bother you?
SickSix wrote: How many people crying "the sky is falling" have actually played with the new book?
I'm not really in the business of complaining on forums for days on end but I did get a game in and it was terrible. I played vs a casual Eldar list with no Serpents, no Knight and 350 pts tied up in footslogging Wraithguard that didn't even get to use their guns of Just Take Everything Off The Table because everything was already off the table by the time they got into range.
They mopped you up that badly? not that I doubt it, but would you mind sharing your list, it's pretty subjective otherwise because you could have been running a bunch of rippers genestealers and raveners for all we know....
I admit I had a Lictor and 4 Devourer Warriors
Apart from that:
Flyrant (swooped in on turn 2, did gak all, got grounded by the first scatter laser pointed its way and finished off by jetbikes)
Tervigon (rolled 1,2,2 on first spawning, did 1 wound on Avatar with dessicators, then got sliced in half)
Zoanthrope (tried to babysit Termagants, but didn't make it to turn 2)
30 Termagants (did random things all game because any synapse that moved into their range died before next turn)
20 Hormagaunts (flamer fodder)
2 Hive Guard (the only unit that really did anything - blew up 2 War walkers)
Mawloc (killed 3 Wraithguard coming in)
Dakkafex (died to massed shuriken fire)
Exocrine (died to War Walkers on turn 1 before even firing)
My opponent had the Avatar, a Jetseer, 2x6 Jetbikes, 15 Wraithguard, 3 War Walkers, Wraithlord.
More than likely your list still should of accounted well for itself against the opposing list, especially since the bulk of its forces were slower than you (bikes aside). The codex is brand new and it is probably one of the least user friendly codex releases in recent memory. The book is a fair bit better than the peanut crowd on this site is bemoaning but it is much harder to make work; and its better builds will be trumped by Eldar. The codex can maul tau and daemons with the tools at hand, especially if your opponent is underestimating you.
Ignore the previous books, this one is weaker than the previous two. With that said the 3.5 Chaos book has more powerful stuff than its current incarnations, same with Necrons, Sisters and a dozen others during their respective heydays. Look at the book currently in a vacuum in comparison to other 6th edition books and you will see where its relative strengths lie.
- Benefits far more from Stronghold Assault and Fortifications in general than any other army. Void shields or Aegis + Venonthrope make for a staunch defense. Tau cannot simultaneously destroy all components of your army in one volley, plus they go second half the time. You would be wise to invest in LOS blocking terrain and maybe hiding more vulnerable units until the biovores waste the pathfinders. You shoot less than your enemy so defenses matter more to you. Playing in a soccer field and crying over Tau is unhelpful and futile.
- Point for point some of the most efficient units at every FOC. Flying Hive Tyrant, Hive Guard/ Venomthropes, Termagaunts, Gargoyles/Harpies, Carnifexes/Biovores: These things are all powerful in the current state of the game. You have to deal with more of a drawback than your opponent, however if your going to play the army frankly deal with it.
- MC as troops and a ready ability to flood the board with a supply of more of them during the course of the game. Again gimped from the last book, again counters, but again something your opponent doesn't have.
- A very versatile discipline that by itself is probably the best one currently in the game. If you were told as a Tyranid player you were going to be stuck with one only.. your picking this one.
- One of the larger books from a unit choice standpoint. Every slot has at least 5 options with all but a few of them being bantered about currently in the opening stages of dissecting the codex.
- In the running for one of the best modeling experiences you can have in the hobby. If you barely glue and throw bare grey plastic at the opponent this counts little. Just paint up your bugs, display them, and win at the other half of the hobby.
- Nerf or not Tervigons still play the objective game better than anyone, its the only thing that made the book slightly competitive in the last book and it still works. You just now can bring 3 Mawlocs at a reasonable price point and support it.
The book has holes, the book doesn't play itself for you unlike setting up 4 riptides. This book can beat the 4 riptide list though, it can laugh at Helldrakes, it can bog down Flying Circus lists and shut down Jetstar/Screamer Star lists well enough. It has more models than its opponent and a few special tricks in its own right that will be difficult to counter. Play with LOS terrain, realize you get your own shooting phase as well. Realize the opponent cant simultaneously whittle down every unit you have in one volley of fire. Also realize the best marine/ chaos/ necron or grey knight lists are usually victim to Taudar as well.
Makumba wrote: Why is the Venomthrope mentioned as some sort of a super saving buff giver of the nid codex .the edition drips in anti cover stuff and it is realy not that hard to kill it .
I find that very much depends what army your fighting against, try playing against Dark angels, space wolves, grey knights, Chaos and even Imperial guard only have short range ignore cover, these are all armies I fight against and I know the venomthrope will be super usefull against. there are other ones too but I feel the point is made.
btw Im only expecting the venomthropes to survive till turn 2 or 3 not more, and as long as they can do that I'll be really happy with them, (make sure to leave them out of range and sight as much as possible and most armies wont be able to avoid your army being shrouded)
Makumba wrote: Why is the Venomthrope mentioned as some sort of a super saving buff giver of the nid codex .the edition drips in anti cover stuff and it is realy not that hard to kill it .
I find that very much depends what army your fighting against, try playing against Dark angels, space wolves, grey knights, Chaos and even Imperial guard only have short range ignore cover, these are all armies I fight against and I know the venomthrope will be super usefull against. there are other ones too but I feel the point is made.
btw Im only expecting the venomthropes to survive till turn 2 or 3 not more, and as long as they can do that I'll be really happy with them, (make sure to leave them out of range and sight as much as possible and most armies wont be able to avoid your army being shrouded)
It completely fits behind a carnifex or three. It doesn't have to die right off the bat. Sitting it out in the open will see it off in short order.
I find that very much depends what army your fighting against, try playing against Dark angels, space wolves, grey knights, Chaos and even Imperial guard only have short range ignore cover, these are all armies I fight against and I know the venomthrope will be super usefull against. there are other ones too but I feel the point is made.
But those are bad armies , it is hard to impossible to find someone playing those . IG ignore cover is not short range , all the stronghold and escalation D templates have more then enough range . Tau ally or tau formation to support IG also means the ignore cover stuff is there too and it is long range . Sure If someone tries to kill tyranids with melta and flamer vets in chimeras , then yeah venomothrops are the bomb . Only the chimer rush army stoped being good when chaos started playing multi drake builds.
And as being someone who gets pwned by chaos a lot , Two helldrakes will clear venomothropes without problem . Even a single one can just swoop it without cover and then finish it off with a backward flame thanks to the 360 torrent turret .
I find that very much depends what army your fighting against, try playing against Dark angels, space wolves, grey knights, Chaos and even Imperial guard only have short range ignore cover, these are all armies I fight against and I know the venomthrope will be super usefull against. there are other ones too but I feel the point is made.
But those are bad armies , it is hard to impossible to find someone playing those . IG ignore cover is not short range , all the stronghold and escalation D templates have more then enough range . Tau ally or tau formation to support IG also means the ignore cover stuff is there too and it is long range . Sure If someone tries to kill tyranids with melta and flamer vets in chimeras , then yeah venomothrops are the bomb . Only the chimer rush army stoped being good when chaos started playing multi drake builds.
And as being someone who gets pwned by chaos a lot , Two helldrakes will clear venomothropes without problem . Even a single one can just swoop it without cover and then finish it off with a backward flame thanks to the 360 torrent turret .
They do nothing when your in close combat, which is where you should be as Tyranids by the time both of them are flying around doing cool moves. Also if your reserving almost 400 points, especially in 1500 points, then you should be at a distinct disadvantage those first two turns.
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Kain wrote: The Necron 5e book is less competitive than the 3e book?
Wat?
The 3ed book as just as annoying, moreso, than the 5ed book when it came out (having played both extensively upon release). It also wasn;t unplayable up to the point of the release of the newer book.
The book, at the very least, is pretty. I'm still reading through the fluff section and won't probably have time to read the unit rules until this weekend.
I gamed yesterday and apparently got the piss stomped out of me, but that went largely unnoticed as I was so enraptured by the codex's pretty pictures and fluff that I forgot I was even playing. In my fluff induced intoxication I wandered away from the table.
When the game was over he asked at what point I'd left, based on the performance of my army he honestly couldn't tell.
Kain wrote: The Necron 5e book is less competitive than the 3e book?
Wat?
Their comparative power levels for the editions they were used in shows the 3rd ed cron book much more powerful for its editions than the 5th ed cron book especially considering that the basic cron warrior rendered vehicles useless e.x. the stray glance from a gauss flayer just blew up your land raider have fun with that.
You can't build an army you like and take it to a casual game and not worry, that's my problem with the book at this point. I'm a casual gamer, and I like to build the armies I like, but I also like to win occasionally.
With other armies, I've built what I wanted, and been able to rely on tactics and army strengths to carry me through. When I put together lists of what I'd like to run with this book I just come out sad. There are TONS of options in the book and so few of them actually serve a purpose outside of combat... and even in combat not much of a purpose. I like walking Tyrants, I like Tyrant Guard, like the Tyranid Prime, like the warriors, like Hormagants, like Crushing claw carnifexes, like Ravenors... to be honest I don't like much of anything with wings. There are so many options where you're just like, "Wow, what a great model... oh well, I suppose I'd like to spend another $80 on models I can't use unless I just want to remove them."
I didn't play the book before, but I could see the 5th Edition uses. In my mind the spore was so cool and a very fluffy concept, it's demise was complete gak, I envisioned this book giving me that powerful carnifex in a pod that didn't have to weather 2 rounds of firepower before he got into the face of the enemy.
Very sad state of affairs, I love the idea of Tyranids, and had always wanted to start an army of them.. but 5th Edition release was poor and now the 6th Edition release is... yeah.
What game are you guys playing where you can't use anything except flyrants and troop tervigons? Taking models off the board wholesale, every turn? Is everyone playing against Taudar competition lists on planet bowling ball every single time you go out?
I'm serious. I don't have these problems that you all are having, maybe I have a really great gaming group or something, but really?
Makumba wrote: Why is the Venomthrope mentioned as some sort of a super saving buff giver of the nid codex .the edition drips in anti cover stuff and it is realy not that hard to kill it .
I find that very much depends what army your fighting against, try playing against Dark angels, space wolves, grey knights, Chaos and even Imperial guard only have short range ignore cover, these are all armies I fight against and I know the venomthrope will be super usefull against. there are other ones too but I feel the point is made.
btw Im only expecting the venomthropes to survive till turn 2 or 3 not more, and as long as they can do that I'll be really happy with them, (make sure to leave them out of range and sight as much as possible and most armies wont be able to avoid your army being shrouded)
Chaos has 36" S8 AP3 ignoring cover blasts, or S5 AP4 on the move, and getting close means you get blasted by the salvo's.
At my local bunker whenever I go in literally 40% of the people playing are using Tau and another 25-30% are using Eldar. Between those two factions it's 65%-70% of the players, no joking or exaggeration that's the current playing field at the Chicago bunker.
Now that nids armies are being built that percentage may change a bit, but even if they take over a decent chunk of the players it's still going to be a lot of Tau and Eldar to get through. I likely won't be able to see long term effects of the Tyranid relase as the bunker is closing for good next week, but given that they have such as hard match up against the majority of the current local meta I don't see them getting in a very good foothold beyond people trying out the rules for a change of pace.
According to staff the new nids sold well, but most everyone was underwhelmed with the new codex and is not thinking there's much hope for them based on the TauDar presence locally.
We have a very experienced set of players there due to the Adeptus Windy City crew (who run's Adepticon) they hold a fair amount of events here and the average players are pretty skilled, their overall reception of the new mechanics was not very good especially given the local enviroment.
Kain wrote: The Necron 5e book is less competitive than the 3e book?
Wat?
Their comparative power levels for the editions they were used in shows the 3rd ed cron book much more powerful for its editions than the 5th ed cron book especially considering that the basic cron warrior rendered vehicles useless e.x. the stray glance from a gauss flayer just blew up your land raider have fun with that.
IIRC You needed a 6s to glance and a 6s to blew up, so an average of 36 shoots. In 6th edition you need 6s to glance and 4 glances destroy a Land Raider so 24 shoots .
paulson games wrote: At my local bunker whenever I go in literally 40% of the people playing are using Tau and another 25-30% are using Eldar. Between those two factions it's 65%-70% of the players, no joking or exaggeration that's the current playing field at the Chicago bunker.
Now that nids armies are being built that percentage may change a bit, but even if they take over a decent chunk of the players it's still going to be a lot of Tau and Eldar to get through. I likely won't be able to see long term effects of the Tyranid relase as the bunker is closing for good next week, but given that they have such as hard match up against the majority of the current local meta I don't see them getting in a very good foothold beyond people trying out the rules for a change of pace.
According to staff the new nids sold well, but most everyone was underwhelmed with the new codex and is not thinking there's much hope for them based on the TauDar presence locally.
We have a very experienced set of players there due to the Adeptus Windy City crew (who run's Adepticon) they hold a fair amount of events here and the average players are pretty skilled, their overall reception of the new mechanics was not very good especially given the local enviroment.
Well, then it all makes sense. I didn't realize how many new Eldar and Tau players there were in some areas now.
Squigsquasher wrote: To everybody complaining: If you hate this codex so much, and you think you honestly know better than the goddamn creators of the game you all pretend to like as an excuse to moan, then apply for a job as a GW codex writer and make a better codex yourself. Or play a different game and stop whining about how anybody who doesn't consider GW the devil incarnate are corporate sheep who need educating. All the bitching in the world isn't going to change anything. Either go and get gak done yourselves, or get lost and stop complaining. Becvause complaining will make no difference whatsoever. At all. If anything, it will make things worse; if I was a GW manager I'd be pretty sick of the constant whining by now and would be going out of my way not to give into your demands. You are not entitled to have the game rules written to your exact demand; you are not the creators. The only thing they "owe" you is products that don't contain warp-anthrax.
But then this whole site is basically a more unified, highly pretentious version of /tg/, convinced of its only intellectual supeirority and with an utterly slowed hipster, entitled hivemind. Heck, the Tyranid Hivemind is more agreeable than most of you. I really don't know why I bother with this forum.
Oh my a thread called "opinions on the new codex?"
I'm going to go inside and check it out, and there had best not be any opinions in there!
I mean, sure, the upgrade costs went up as well so it's either a case of breaking even or getting more expensive for the same thing... but reduced prices! OMG! So wow. Very Tyranid. Much Cruddace.
I mean, sure, the upgrade costs went up as well so it's either a case of breaking even or getting more expensive for the same thing... but reduced prices! OMG! So wow. Very Tyranid. Much Cruddace.
I can't fathom why they got him to do a faction most people agreed was better left to anyone but him? Kelly is an admitted Tyranid fanboy. He seems better suited for the job. Or hell, drag Thorpe out of the library and get his lazy ass back in the game.
Makumba wrote: Why is the Venomthrope mentioned as some sort of a super saving buff giver of the nid codex .the edition drips in anti cover stuff and it is realy not that hard to kill it .
I find that very much depends what army your fighting against, try playing against Dark angels, space wolves, grey knights, Chaos and even Imperial guard only have short range ignore cover, these are all armies I fight against and I know the venomthrope will be super usefull against. there are other ones too but I feel the point is made.
btw Im only expecting the venomthropes to survive till turn 2 or 3 not more, and as long as they can do that I'll be really happy with them, (make sure to leave them out of range and sight as much as possible and most armies wont be able to avoid your army being shrouded)
Chaos has 36" S8 AP3 ignoring cover blasts, or S5 AP4 on the move, and getting close means you get blasted by the salvo's.
Ill fight chaos any day of the week with this new codex, Chaos really doesnt have much good anti air aside from the helturkey and since I dont play in a hyper competitive environment, my people have agreed on a limit of 2 heldrake and a few of the other OP models (riptides, wraithknights) per army so im looking forward to outclassing my chaos opponent in the airforce department.
noise marines are expensive, sure you could kill my venomthropes,IF, you can see them behind all my MC, which might be hard, especially for heavy weapon that cant move.
Squigsquasher wrote: To everybody complaining: If you hate this codex so much, and you think you honestly know better than the goddamn creators of the game you all pretend to like as an excuse to moan, then apply for a job as a GW codex writer and make a better codex yourself. Or play a different game and stop whining about how anybody who doesn't consider GW the devil incarnate are corporate sheep who need educating. All the bitching in the world isn't going to change anything. Either go and get gak done yourselves, or get lost and stop complaining. Becvause complaining will make no difference whatsoever. At all. If anything, it will make things worse; if I was a GW manager I'd be pretty sick of the constant whining by now and would be going out of my way not to give into your demands. You are not entitled to have the game rules written to your exact demand; you are not the creators. The only thing they "owe" you is products that don't contain warp-anthrax.
But then this whole site is basically a more unified, highly pretentious version of /tg/, convinced of its only intellectual supeirority and with an utterly slowed hipster, entitled hivemind. Heck, the Tyranid Hivemind is more agreeable than most of you. I really don't know why I bother with this forum.
LO-freaking-L. Yes, I do think I know better than the Codex writers what makes for a good Codex, since they've shown some pretty naff judgement before. And this is coming from someone who has written, play-tested, balanced and maintained 3 Fandexes. Feel free to keep posting here though, your rants make me laugh.
kronk wrote: The book, at the very least, is pretty. I'm still reading through the fluff section and won't probably have time to read the unit rules until this weekend.
This is a fair point. The double-spread artwork straight after the introduction is among the best I've seen in a GW publication. I want it as a poster on my wall.
Squigsquasher wrote: To everybody complaining: If you hate this codex so much, and you think you honestly know better than the goddamn creators of the game you all pretend to like as an excuse to moan, then apply for a job as a GW codex writer and make a better codex yourself. Or play a different game and stop whining about how anybody who doesn't consider GW the devil incarnate are corporate sheep who need educating. All the bitching in the world isn't going to change anything. Either go and get gak done yourselves, or get lost and stop complaining. Becvause complaining will make no difference whatsoever. At all. If anything, it will make things worse; if I was a GW manager I'd be pretty sick of the constant whining by now and would be going out of my way not to give into your demands. You are not entitled to have the game rules written to your exact demand; you are not the creators. The only thing they "owe" you is products that don't contain warp-anthrax.
But then this whole site is basically a more unified, highly pretentious version of /tg/, convinced of its only intellectual supeirority and with an utterly slowed hipster, entitled hivemind. Heck, the Tyranid Hivemind is more agreeable than most of you. I really don't know why I bother with this forum.
Blink. Blink.
Well that happened.
I think someone is passionate. I agree on some level. This forum is pretty filledwith naysayers just because of the sheer OPPORTUNITY afforded by the number of people on this forum. I wonder if GW would listen more if voices of reason like this guy were on it more often.
Squigsquasher wrote: ... and you think you honestly know better than the goddamn creators of the game...
Well... yeah. I don't like to toot my own horn like this, but as someone with around ten published 40KRPG rulebooks to his name I'd say that myself and a few others I've worked with on those books could do a bang up job with 40K.
Squigsquasher wrote: To everybody complaining: If you hate this codex so much, and you think you honestly know better than the goddamn creators of the game you all pretend to like as an excuse to moan, then apply for a job as a GW codex writer and make a better codex yourself.
I love it when people say this and actually think it is a legitimate argument. How about I go around saying "If you don't like the government than either shut up or run for office yourself".
Can you actually shoot at a Venemthrope in a bastion? If not then that is likely why JY2 takes them and eliminates the need to worry about it being shot at? still worried then you can always take 2?
Also.. whilst some armies can remove cover that bastion will likely give EVERYTHING in your army shrouded if you deploy correctly. A couple of unit's don't benefit from cover and have to use there own saves, well those are the ones that you give FNP too (2 x flyrant's, Zoanthrope or 2, maybe a Tervigon there is a very good chance to roll it).
And isn't a 3+ 5++ statistically better than a 2+ ?
*My local meta is competitive but not over the top ie.. nothing but broadsides and/or 2++ re rolls*
bodazoka wrote: Can you actually shoot at a Venemthrope in a bastion? If not then that is likely why JY2 takes them and eliminates the need to worry about it being shot at? still worried then you can always take 2?
Also.. whilst some armies can remove cover that bastion will likely give EVERYTHING in your army shrouded if you deploy correctly. A couple of unit's don't benefit from cover and have to use there own saves, well those are the ones that you give FNP too (2 x flyrant's, Zoanthrope or 2, maybe a Tervigon there is a very good chance to roll it).
And isn't a 3+ 5++ statistically better than a 2+ ?
*My local meta is competitive but not over the top ie.. nothing but broadsides and/or 2++ re rolls*
You cannot fire at the venomthrope if he is inside the bastion, and it extends its range by quite a bit. And technically the bastion itself has 5+ cover save, making it very difficult to kill. Not to mention anything on the battlements has a 2+ cover save like say a zoanthrope with Dominion working as a synaptic anchor.
Makumba wrote: Why is the Venomthrope mentioned as some sort of a super saving buff giver of the nid codex .the edition drips in anti cover stuff and it is realy not that hard to kill it .
I find that very much depends what army your fighting against, try playing against Dark angels, space wolves, grey knights, Chaos and even Imperial guard only have short range ignore cover, these are all armies I fight against and I know the venomthrope will be super usefull against. there are other ones too but I feel the point is made.
btw Im only expecting the venomthropes to survive till turn 2 or 3 not more, and as long as they can do that I'll be really happy with them, (make sure to leave them out of range and sight as much as possible and most armies wont be able to avoid your army being shrouded)
Chaos has 36" S8 AP3 ignoring cover blasts, or S5 AP4 on the move, and getting close means you get blasted by the salvo's.
Ill fight chaos any day of the week with this new codex, Chaos really doesnt have much good anti air aside from the helturkey and since I dont play in a hyper competitive environment, my people have agreed on a limit of 2 heldrake and a few of the other OP models (riptides, wraithknights) per army so im looking forward to outclassing my chaos opponent in the airforce department.
noise marines are expensive, sure you could kill my venomthropes,IF, you can see them behind all my MC, which might be hard, especially for heavy weapon that cant move.
"I'll fight Chaos any day of the week under house rules that remove the things that other are most concerned about!"
Sorry, but I hope you can see why that sounds a little silly.
I would still fight Chaos even if he decided to pull out 4 Heldrakes in a 1999+1 pts or less game. Although that is power-gaming. I was just saying that I wont be doing that due to my meta. Most likely we will put restriction on something in the Nids codex too if we find that there is a unit that is OP on the level of a heldrake and I will be fine with that.
I hope we can all agree that a heldrake is OP tho right?
fartherthanfar wrote: I would still fight Chaos even if he decided to pull out 4 Heldrakes in a 1999+1 pts or less game. Although that is power-gaming. I was just saying that I wont be doing that due to my meta.
Most likely we will put restriction on something in the Nids codex too if we find that there is a unit that is OP on the level of a heldrake and I will be fine with that.
I hope we can all agree that a heldrake is OP tho right?
The heldrake is an odd one. It's not really op nor is it bad. Simply put, it has this odd effect. Against the top tier armies, it is absolutely worthless struggling to handle them and is absolutely ineffective against fliers and is in a codex that can't really use it to its best potential as the rest of the book has very little to any AA (or decent AA either) and is generally under performing. It's really only in casual games where the heldrake is op anymore and that's namely because enemies are going to be deploying sub par units (and due to percentile chances will be power armour marines) and in an era where several codices are still too outdated to function against it. That's really the biggest problem. It was nasty when it came out but it has long fallen from op to merely a polarizing weapon that is really only strong in competitive environments. It's still pretty much a must take though. Also 4 is generally regarded as too much. 3 is already pushing it.
New thoughts on Tyranids now that I have a couple games under my belt and have been playing with list building for awhile now...
I feel like I could call this Codex: Tax. I feel like I can't just take what I want, I have to pay a tax to use everything to make it viable. The most obvious of course being Tervigons, but more importantly synapse creatures. I find myself including a group of 3 warriors in most every list for back field objective holding/synapse...But warriors are still terrible. They almost always die in every game I have played, never make back a fraction of their points, and I don't want to take them. At the same time I feel like I have to because I need the synapse.
Let me break down why I dislike the new synapse and why I feel it is one of the leading contributors of what makes this codex bad. In HQ you have Tyrants/Swarmy, Tervigons, and Primes as your synapse. You will take one of these obviously but because of the ridiculous pricing on the Prime and the fact that a Tervigon can't be your warlord you are almost required to take a Tyrant as your HQ, which isn't bad because they are awesome but that means that every single Tyranid army that wants to be relatively competitive will be taking a Tyrant or multiple Tyrants. This is bad because it makes all the other choices a sad waste of potential and as I said above, it is like a Tyrant Tax which isn't that bad but when you move on to other slots you start to see the problem. In Troops you can take a Tervigon as a troop if you take 30 Termagants to give you more synapse or you can take warriors. Tervigons aren't great but they are a rock for your army to rally around, still a decent choice, but warriors...warriors are still as bad as they have always been. But you find yourself needing synapse in a list and paying the points for Tervigons/30 gants is just to much so you fall back on warriors not because you want them but because you feel you need them. Continuing on you have the elites which means Zoanthropes, which aren't bad but the more Zoanthropes you take the less Venomthropes you take, or Hive Guard, or Haruspex if you want to run straight nid zilla. Fast has no synapse so we move on to heavy, which is the Trygon Prime. He is a great little synapse creature, a little expensive, but in the most contested slot in the book making him less appealing. What I am saying is that every synapse creature you take is one less option, because you NEED synapse but there are often better choices that they are competing with.
So going back to my original statement about this being Codex: Tax, look at the FOC and break down how many slots you are dedicating to Synapse just to field this army and the Synapse creatures have almost universally been nerfed from 5th to 6th, some not so bad like the Zoanthrope, but some really bad like the Tervigon. You are forced to take probably 3-4 synapse creatures to run your list and that means less choices in what you actually want to run. None of the synapse creatures except the Hive Tyrant really appeal to my play style but here I am, forcing myself to take more and more, taking up more of the FOC, just so I can run my army. Most people will get around this by running 2x Flyrants and a Tervigon/Zoanthropes and that will be the vast majority of list making the army once again, for another edition, bland and mono-list.
Squigsquasher wrote: To everybody complaining: If you hate this codex so much, and you think you honestly know better than the goddamn creators of the game you all pretend to like as an excuse to moan, then apply for a job as a GW codex writer and make a better codex yourself. Or play a different game and stop whining about how anybody who doesn't consider GW the devil incarnate are corporate sheep who need educating. All the bitching in the world isn't going to change anything. Either go and get gak done yourselves, or get lost and stop complaining. Becvause complaining will make no difference whatsoever. At all. If anything, it will make things worse; if I was a GW manager I'd be pretty sick of the constant whining by now and would be going out of my way not to give into your demands. You are not entitled to have the game rules written to your exact demand; you are not the creators. The only thing they "owe" you is products that don't contain warp-anthrax.
But then this whole site is basically a more unified, highly pretentious version of /tg/, convinced of its only intellectual supeirority and with an utterly slowed hipster, entitled hivemind. Heck, the Tyranid Hivemind is more agreeable than most of you. I really don't know why I bother with this forum.
This is brilliant.
Your "bitching" (any form of complaint or criticism, in your view) about bitching. Especially with your comparison to /tg/ and your constant use of ad-hom. Your a very silly person Squig.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: New thoughts on Tyranids now that I have a couple games under my belt and have been playing with list building for awhile now...
I feel like I could call this Codex: Tax. I feel like I can't just take what I want, I have to pay a tax to use everything to make it viable. The most obvious of course being Tervigons, but more importantly synapse creatures. I find myself including a group of 3 warriors in most every list for back field objective holding/synapse...But warriors are still terrible. They almost always die in every game I have played, never make back a fraction of their points, and I don't want to take them. At the same time I feel like I have to because I need the synapse.
Let me break down why I dislike the new synapse and why I feel it is one of the leading contributors of what makes this codex bad. In HQ you have Tyrants/Swarmy, Tervigons, and Primes as your synapse. You will take one of these obviously but because of the ridiculous pricing on the Prime and the fact that a Tervigon can't be your warlord you are almost required to take a Tyrant as your HQ, which isn't bad because they are awesome but that means that every single Tyranid army that wants to be relatively competitive will be taking a Tyrant or multiple Tyrants. This is bad because it makes all the other choices a sad waste of potential and as I said above, it is like a Tyrant Tax which isn't that bad but when you move on to other slots you start to see the problem. In Troops you can take a Tervigon as a troop if you take 30 Termagants to give you more synapse or you can take warriors. Tervigons aren't great but they are a rock for your army to rally around, still a decent choice, but warriors...warriors are still as bad as they have always been. But you find yourself needing synapse in a list and paying the points for Tervigons/30 gants is just to much so you fall back on warriors not because you want them but because you feel you need them. Continuing on you have the elites which means Zoanthropes, which aren't bad but the more Zoanthropes you take the less Venomthropes you take, or Hive Guard, or Haruspex if you want to run straight nid zilla. Fast has no synapse so we move on to heavy, which is the Trygon Prime. He is a great little synapse creature, a little expensive, but in the most contested slot in the book making him less appealing. What I am saying is that every synapse creature you take is one less option, because you NEED synapse but there are often better choices that they are competing with.
So going back to my original statement about this being Codex: Tax, look at the FOC and break down how many slots you are dedicating to Synapse just to field this army and the Synapse creatures have almost universally been nerfed from 5th to 6th, some not so bad like the Zoanthrope, but some really bad like the Tervigon. You are forced to take probably 3-4 synapse creatures to run your list and that means less choices in what you actually want to run. None of the synapse creatures except the Hive Tyrant really appeal to my play style but here I am, forcing myself to take more and more, taking up more of the FOC, just so I can run my army. Most people will get around this by running 2x Flyrants and a Tervigon/Zoanthropes and that will be the vast majority of list making the army once again, for another edition, bland and mono-list.
I agree with most of this. To be fair though you are almost always going to take at least 1 x Zoanthrope right? It's worth it just for the extra psyker power's let alone synapse. However you are likely to play it VERY safe with the guy and hide him most of the battle which is somewhat restrictive.. I do also think that I am looking at thing's like warriors, prime's and Tervigon's mostly for the synapse and that either choice is un likely to contribute much to the battle for there points.
The above makes me really consider a tax of Norn crown + Dominion to be a cheaper alternative than actually taking a Prime or Warrior's or Tervigon.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: New thoughts on Tyranids now that I have a couple games under my belt and have been playing with list building for awhile now...
I feel like I could call this Codex: Tax. I feel like I can't just take what I want, I have to pay a tax to use everything to make it viable. The most obvious of course being Tervigons, but more importantly synapse creatures. I find myself including a group of 3 warriors in most every list for back field objective holding/synapse...But warriors are still terrible. They almost always die in every game I have played, never make back a fraction of their points, and I don't want to take them. At the same time I feel like I have to because I need the synapse.
Let me break down why I dislike the new synapse and why I feel it is one of the leading contributors of what makes this codex bad. In HQ you have Tyrants/Swarmy, Tervigons, and Primes as your synapse. You will take one of these obviously but because of the ridiculous pricing on the Prime and the fact that a Tervigon can't be your warlord you are almost required to take a Tyrant as your HQ, which isn't bad because they are awesome but that means that every single Tyranid army that wants to be relatively competitive will be taking a Tyrant or multiple Tyrants. This is bad because it makes all the other choices a sad waste of potential and as I said above, it is like a Tyrant Tax which isn't that bad but when you move on to other slots you start to see the problem. In Troops you can take a Tervigon as a troop if you take 30 Termagants to give you more synapse or you can take warriors. Tervigons aren't great but they are a rock for your army to rally around, still a decent choice, but warriors...warriors are still as bad as they have always been. But you find yourself needing synapse in a list and paying the points for Tervigons/30 gants is just to much so you fall back on warriors not because you want them but because you feel you need them. Continuing on you have the elites which means Zoanthropes, which aren't bad but the more Zoanthropes you take the less Venomthropes you take, or Hive Guard, or Haruspex if you want to run straight nid zilla. Fast has no synapse so we move on to heavy, which is the Trygon Prime. He is a great little synapse creature, a little expensive, but in the most contested slot in the book making him less appealing. What I am saying is that every synapse creature you take is one less option, because you NEED synapse but there are often better choices that they are competing with.
So going back to my original statement about this being Codex: Tax, look at the FOC and break down how many slots you are dedicating to Synapse just to field this army and the Synapse creatures have almost universally been nerfed from 5th to 6th, some not so bad like the Zoanthrope, but some really bad like the Tervigon. You are forced to take probably 3-4 synapse creatures to run your list and that means less choices in what you actually want to run. None of the synapse creatures except the Hive Tyrant really appeal to my play style but here I am, forcing myself to take more and more, taking up more of the FOC, just so I can run my army. Most people will get around this by running 2x Flyrants and a Tervigon/Zoanthropes and that will be the vast majority of list making the army once again, for another edition, bland and mono-list.
And it makes it if you want to try to run a swarm, you need lots of synapse creatures, because you pretty much need them to overlap. Which greatly reduces the number of little guys you can take. Which pretty much defeats the idea of swarm. If you don't take quite a bit of synapse; and have a lot of guys, which you will need to spread out to avoid large blasts, then your opponent kills just one synapse unit and you could very well have lost control of quite a few units, or even have had them suffer catastrophic losses in the case of units like hormagaunts.
One thing about this codex that I find very strange is that Tervigons are now an ok synapse unit, but not for termigants. Good for controlling everything else, but with the change in the synaptic backlash and the loss of the ability to grant termigants poison and adrendal gland effect it better to keep the termigants away from their broodmother.
streamdragon wrote: Just wanted to point out: the old Tyranid FAQ has been removed from the US site. Hopefully that means FAQ 1.0 is coming soon?
Hopefully, maybe. I'm a little apprehensive about it really. Though if its much like other new releases, they'll be 1 or 2 lines to fix things and thats it.
Taking it down is a step forward though. I keep checking and need to double check the 2013 part every time .
Squigsquasher wrote: You can't accuse someone of Ad Homenim and then follow it up with
Your a very silly person Squig.
On account of that being, well, Ad Homenim.
That wasn't an Ad Hominem.
An ad hominem would be "You're wrong -because- you're a very silly person Squig". What he said was "You're wrong -and- you're a very silly person". There's a pretty significant difference.
The new FAQ when it goes up is more likely to say we cant use fortifications than to say we can use biomancy the way things have been in the past and going by what they did and didnt do with the codex...
Squigsquasher wrote: ... and you think you honestly know better than the goddamn creators of the game...
Well... yeah. I don't like to toot my own horn like this, but as someone with around ten published 40KRPG rulebooks to his name I'd say that myself and a few others I've worked with on those books could do a bang up job with 40K.
Well, after a couple of weeks mulling this book over I am super not impressed. As a long time tyranid player (15+ years now) and fairly competitive player overall (I think I was 7-0 with nids in 6th edition, with 6 of those games being in small local tournaments) I think I'm done with nids until something changes with the core rules, the dataslates or the FaQ.
One thing I can say is that the internal balance is about as good as it's ever been....but the external balance is pretty much the worst it's been in a long time.
The entire book is either straight up blatant nerfs, or subtle sneaky nerfs. The new units are a bloody mess, so they don't help. My favorite quote about this book so far is; "This codex is the most disappointing 40k codex release since the last Tyranid codex".
I've toyed with writing an in depth review of every unit and option, but I realized it would be quite literally a 5000+ word essay of depressing sadness, and I don't want to waste anymore time on this book than I need to. If anyone wants my opinions on anything in particular, I'll post them, but I'm not going to spend hours on writing this.
Well I think the Tyranids have the best anti air in the game now 2/3 rds of the time. I don't see why you wouldn't run 2 Tryants. So w/ 2 powers each you'll get warp blast 2/3 of your games. A Tryant w/ a 10/1 will wreck flyers. That is not even considering you'll still fire six 6 str attacks w/ that.
I can sum up my opinion of this book in one sentence. The best part of the new Nid book is the Matt Ward fluff.
Oh, and no spore pods is a huge kick in the junk. Was it really that hard to make a big plastic seed thing? Is the 30 devilguant suicide drop really that game breaking? Nothing like an assault army with no access to grenades and no deep strike.....
Automatically Appended Next Post: ps- Has it been confirmed that Crudface wrote this thing?
Mythra wrote: Well I think the Tyranids have the best anti air in the game now 2/3 rds of the time. I don't see why you wouldn't run 2 Tryants. So w/ 2 powers each you'll get warp blast 2/3 of your games. A Tryant w/ a 10/1 will wreck flyers. That is not even considering you'll still fire six 6 str attacks w/ that.
I was thinking about this yesterday evening actually.
First off, Warp Blast is AP2....it got nerfed from 5th edition
Second, getting the power isn't reliable enough, or advantageous enough, that you'd give up the second TL-BL devourer for it....so you aren't saving the 15 points from not buying the gun.
So the question is; Does a psychic S10 AP2 lance beat out 6 S6 AP- twin-linked shots?
Warp Lance;
91.66% chance to pass the psychic test
61.11% chance to hit
50.93% chance to hit after deny the witch
------
Against AV10; Auto-pen, 1/3 chance to kill. Overall, 33.95% chance to take a hull point/do damage, 16.97% chance to kill straight out. 0.34 HP, 0.17 Kill
Against AV11; Glances on a 1, Pen on a 2+. 8.488% chance to glance, 28.29% chance to take a hull point/do damage, 14.14% chance to kill straight out. 0.36HP, 0.14 kill
Against AV12; Glances on a 2, Pen on a 3+. 8.488% chance to glance, 22.63% chance to take a hull point/do damage, 11.31% chance to kill straight out. 0.31HP, 0.11 kill
Basically a solid chance to do a damage roll, but less than 1 in 6 chance of killing straight up.
TL-BL Devourers;
88.8% chance to hit
-------
Against AV10: 4 to glance, 5+ to pen; 14.8% chance to glance, 29.62% chance to pen (4.93 to kill straight up) x 6 = 2.37HP, 0.30 Kills
Against AV11; 5 to glance, 6 to pen; 14.8% chance to glance, 14.8% chance to pen (2.47 to kill straight up) x 6 = 1.63 HP, 0.148 kills
Against AV12; 6 to glance; 14.8% chance to take a hull point x6 = 0.88HP
TL-BLdev are just straight up better against AV10/11, period
Against AV12, Devs cannot kill it straight out, but is averaging more hull points worth of damage still. Combined with the second BL-devourer, I'd score twin-BL devourers over Warp lance + BLdev higher, since you can just glance something to death faster.
Overall....I don't think Warp lance it worth firing at anything but an AV13+ ground vehicle (or that ONE AV13 flyer of course). Frankly, I write warp blast off as a mediocre power for Winged tyrants, right up there with The Horror and Dominion.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: New thoughts on Tyranids now that I have a couple games under my belt and have been playing with list building for awhile now...
I feel like I could call this Codex: Tax. I feel like I can't just take what I want, I have to pay a tax to use everything to make it viable. The most obvious of course being Tervigons, but more importantly synapse creatures. I find myself including a group of 3 warriors in most every list for back field objective holding/synapse...But warriors are still terrible. They almost always die in every game I have played, never make back a fraction of their points, and I don't want to take them. At the same time I feel like I have to because I need the synapse.
Let me break down why I dislike the new synapse and why I feel it is one of the leading contributors of what makes this codex bad. In HQ you have Tyrants/Swarmy, Tervigons, and Primes as your synapse. You will take one of these obviously but because of the ridiculous pricing on the Prime and the fact that a Tervigon can't be your warlord you are almost required to take a Tyrant as your HQ, which isn't bad because they are awesome but that means that every single Tyranid army that wants to be relatively competitive will be taking a Tyrant or multiple Tyrants. This is bad because it makes all the other choices a sad waste of potential and as I said above, it is like a Tyrant Tax which isn't that bad but when you move on to other slots you start to see the problem. In Troops you can take a Tervigon as a troop if you take 30 Termagants to give you more synapse or you can take warriors. Tervigons aren't great but they are a rock for your army to rally around, still a decent choice, but warriors...warriors are still as bad as they have always been. But you find yourself needing synapse in a list and paying the points for Tervigons/30 gants is just to much so you fall back on warriors not because you want them but because you feel you need them. Continuing on you have the elites which means Zoanthropes, which aren't bad but the more Zoanthropes you take the less Venomthropes you take, or Hive Guard, or Haruspex if you want to run straight nid zilla. Fast has no synapse so we move on to heavy, which is the Trygon Prime. He is a great little synapse creature, a little expensive, but in the most contested slot in the book making him less appealing. What I am saying is that every synapse creature you take is one less option, because you NEED synapse but there are often better choices that they are competing with.
So going back to my original statement about this being Codex: Tax, look at the FOC and break down how many slots you are dedicating to Synapse just to field this army and the Synapse creatures have almost universally been nerfed from 5th to 6th, some not so bad like the Zoanthrope, but some really bad like the Tervigon. You are forced to take probably 3-4 synapse creatures to run your list and that means less choices in what you actually want to run. None of the synapse creatures except the Hive Tyrant really appeal to my play style but here I am, forcing myself to take more and more, taking up more of the FOC, just so I can run my army. Most people will get around this by running 2x Flyrants and a Tervigon/Zoanthropes and that will be the vast majority of list making the army once again, for another edition, bland and mono-list.
I agree with most of this. To be fair though you are almost always going to take at least 1 x Zoanthrope right? It's worth it just for the extra psyker power's let alone synapse. However you are likely to play it VERY safe with the guy and hide him most of the battle which is somewhat restrictive.. I do also think that I am looking at thing's like warriors, prime's and Tervigon's mostly for the synapse and that either choice is un likely to contribute much to the battle for there points.
The above makes me really consider a tax of Norn crown + Dominion to be a cheaper alternative than actually taking a Prime or Warrior's or Tervigon.
Honestly? No, I never plan on running Zoanthropes because I don't have enough elite slots. This is where I am really feeling the crunch because I am going to auto include two groups of one Venomthropes to give my army the coverage it needs and fill the other slot with the, admittedly bad but awesome looking, Haruspex. Or maybe some Hive Guard if I ever feel like playing them again.
I don't think that the problem is synapse range, I think the problem is how hard it is to keep your synapse alive when playing against a semi decent opponent.
New BRB rules are in playtest so they wrote the 'nid dex to work in light of that.
No pods because they break a rule of two races having the same tactic, SM and 'nids, so that would be considered a fix IMHO.
New white dwarf weekly coming that will add new kits and rules. Remember the Talons and DakkaDakka Jets with the rules only being in the WD?
New combined website with FW now folded in. FW making new "fixes" to all the missing fortifications and adding some new units that we all see are missing.
The reason I say this is that GW has begun to step up their releases. They seem to actually have a long term plan in mind to getting codex releases out faster than ever before, thus allowing them to plan the contents of the codex to better align with the releases down the road. We see no Finecast in this release and I think we are seeing the end to finecast altogether. We are seeing the data slate as a way to add more rules and options in a faster format. I personally would like to have my codex buffed up now, in a dataslate, then wait for the new codex to come out.
Yes, the 'nid codex is not stellar, but we do get to use more models, get actually kits to build, and the play style of 'nids is much better than ever. Remember, we never got a Drop Pod model, I wonder if we will. If we do, then I will be the first to wonder how that fits with the lore. Also, where is all that cool terrain\fortifications that I saw in the last codex. Will we ever see it? I am hoping we do.
Now chew on this, is 40k in need of better CinC rules. Is that what we are seeing in the synapse rules. Will we see something in the Orks and IG that balance this out? I would not be surprised in the least. Also, on the dataslate it talks to the arrival of the hive to a planet, could the new data slates be giving us some Deep Strike options. Far fetched, but it all rings true of so much of what I see GW doing.
As for keeping your synapse alive - you need to think outside the bubble, Tyranids were once all about the endless swarm of models (fast moving targets!)... we have returned to that. The low Ld models, primarily your gaunts need synapse the most, but they are also fast as heck (and cheap) and will threaten early. You can't ignore 20 hormagants coming towards you.
Even the spammiest TauDar list will give pause to overwhelming numbers, it's not just about AP2 weapons.
The whiners here love to gloss over the point reductions, but again, just my 1750 point list is already 200 points cheaper than from the last codex!
Gunzhard wrote: As for keeping your synapse alive - you need to think outside the bubble, Tyranids were once all about the endless swarm of models (fast moving targets!)... we have returned to that. The low Ld models, primarily your gaunts need synapse the most, but they are also fast as heck (and cheap) and will threaten early. You can't ignore 20 hormagants coming towards you.
Even the spammiest TauDar list will give pause to overwhelming numbers, it's not just about AP2 weapons.
The whiners here love to gloss over the point reductions, but again, just my 1750 point list is already 200 points cheaper than from the last codex!
Those 20 hormagaunts do not matter against the Tau and Eldar players because they can easily snipe the supporting synapse creature making those 20 hormagaunts likely to kill themselves. IB is so bad now that it really does cripple the army to not have it and people will realize that. There is no longer an effective way to spam synapse either which makes it even harder, there is no cheap synapse, it is all tied up in important slots or to expensive to be viable.
Gunzhard wrote: By 'good' lists do you mean douchy WAAC lists
OK, so how often do you play against people that understand game play and design an army around it?
My group are all veteran gamers, but if you're seriously telling me the new synapse has you that stumped I question if you fall into that category.
"New synapse" does not have me stumped but it combined with the rest of the book as an infinitesimal number of folks willing to rematch me with swapped armies. People used to want to swap with me to prove that it was the list that was the issue.
Gunzhard wrote: As for keeping your synapse alive - you need to think outside the bubble, Tyranids were once all about the endless swarm of models (fast moving targets!)... we have returned to that.
I'm kinda' feeling the exact opposite. Monster Smash is back in town with double Flyrants, a Tervigon, a HS section filled with MCs and a Lords of War gargantuan creature. Supported by Venomthropes of course. And some min-maxed spinegaunt broods (like 1x30 for the Tervigon and 1x20 for camping) too.
Gunzhard wrote: As for keeping your synapse alive - you need to think outside the bubble, Tyranids were once all about the endless swarm of models (fast moving targets!)... we have returned to that. The low Ld models, primarily your gaunts need synapse the most, but they are also fast as heck (and cheap) and will threaten early. You can't ignore 20 hormagants coming towards you.
Even the spammiest TauDar list will give pause to overwhelming numbers, it's not just about AP2 weapons.
The whiners here love to gloss over the point reductions, but again, just my 1750 point list is already 200 points cheaper than from the last codex!
And my 1500 point tournament list is both more expensive AND not legal....so, yay for you?
I stand by the fact that there were almost no point reductions in the codex outside of a tiny buff to carnifexes and a moderate one to tyranno-fexes.
As for keeping your synapse alive - you need to think outside the bubble, Tyranids were once all about the endless swarm of models (fast moving targets!)... we have returned to that
Without synaps your not moving fast anywhere . There is not outside of the bubble . Nids need it to work and opponents know that killing them will be a huge boon for them . And in a game where there is ignore cover stuff , D weapons and ally in case your army doesn't have any of the first two keeping something alive is far from easy.
TL-BL Devourers;
75% chance to hit
-------
Against AV10: 4 to glance, 5+ to pen; 12.5% chance to glance, 25% chance to pen (4.166 to kill straight up) x 6 = 2HP, 0.25 Kills
Against AV11; 5 to glance, 6 to pen; 12.5% chance to glance, 12.5% chance to pen (2.08 to kill straight up) x 6 = 1.37 HP, 0.125 kills
Against AV12; 6 to glance; 12.5% chance to take a hull point x6 = 0.75HP
TL-BLdev are just straight up better against AV10, period
Against AV11, marginally less likely to explode the vehicle outright (1.5% difference) but averages 1.37 hull points to lance's 0.36. Win for TL-BLdevsIMO.
Against AV12, Devs cannot kill it straight out, but is averaging more hull points worth of damage still. Combined with the second BL-devourer, I'd score twin-BL devourers over Warp lance + BLdev higher, since you can just glance something to death faster.
Overall....I don't think Warp lance it worth firing at anything but an AV13+ ground vehicle (or that ONE AV13 flyer of course). Frankly, I write warp blast off as a mediocre power for Winged tyrants, right up there with The Horror and Dominion.
Thanks for doing the math, but just wanted to point out one thing.
Tyrants are BS4 now, so twin-linked devourers with worms hit something like 89% of the time instead of 75%.
Which just further skews the numbers in favor of the TL-Dw/BLW.
Gunzhard wrote: As for keeping your synapse alive - you need to think outside the bubble, Tyranids were once all about the endless swarm of models (fast moving targets!)... we have returned to that. The low Ld models, primarily your gaunts need synapse the most, but they are also fast as heck (and cheap) and will threaten early. You can't ignore 20 hormagants coming towards you.
Even the spammiest TauDar list will give pause to overwhelming numbers, it's not just about AP2 weapons.
The whiners here love to gloss over the point reductions, but again, just my 1750 point list is already 200 points cheaper than from the last codex!
And my 1500 point tournament list is both more expensive AND not legal....so, yay for you?
I stand by the fact that there were almost no point reductions in the codex outside of a tiny buff to carnifexes and a moderate one to tyranno-fexes.
You can stand by it, but it's not a fact. Let's see this list.
As for keeping your synapse alive - you need to think outside the bubble, Tyranids were once all about the endless swarm of models (fast moving targets!)... we have returned to that
Without synaps your not moving fast anywhere . There is not outside of the bubble . Nids need it to work and opponents know that killing them will be a huge boon for them . And in a game where there is ignore cover stuff , D weapons and ally in case your army doesn't have any of the first two keeping something alive is far from easy.
This argument is ridiculous, with any army facing weapons that ignore cover, D weapons etc, things are going to die. So basically you want a point and click, auto-win force that never suffers a casualty, well ok Tyranids likely won't work for you.
Based on this thread I'd think Tyranids are only allowed to play against the Tau. Is "competitive" 40k really just a filtered down match of the current top-tier net-lists?
And my 1500 point tournament list is both more expensive AND not legal....so, yay for you?
I stand by the fact that there were almost no point reductions in the codex outside of a tiny buff to carnifexes and a moderate one to tyranno-fexes.
You can stand by it, but it's not a fact. Let's see this list.
My last list off hand...the tourny was in May, so I might be a touch off;
260 Winged Tyrant, 2xTL-BLdevs (-30 points now, and pretty much worse because of the loss of biomancy)
130 Doom in a pod (GONEEEEEEE.....)
100 2 Hive Guard (+10 points now, and -1 BS)
200 Tervigon, 2 powers, toxin-sacs (Don't even know where to start.....loss of biomancy is crippling, not to mention the loss of the 2 extra powers, doesn't support gaunts with toxin-sacs or LD 10 for counter attack)
50 10 termigants (save 10 points here now)
200 Tervigon, 2 powers, toxin-sacs
50 10 termigants
-----------------------------
Need 40 more gaunts to make this legal again
210 Trygon, Toxin-sacs (-10 points now! WOO! Only lost 22-25% of his melee ability to balance that out)
210 Trygon, Toxin-sacs
90 2 Biovores (I'd have sworn I had 3, but it doesn't math out properly. -5 points now I think? No real changes otherwise.)
-----
1500.
I think it mathed out at -60 points in reduced units, +10 for HG and I need another 40 gaunts, so that's 130 lost there. 130 points of models that will never see the table again.
As for my point about "nothing getting cheaper", it was a somewhat flawed point I guess. Lots of stuff got cheaper, but they also got WORSE. There are very very few units that are better off now than they were before this book....mainly carnifexes, venomthropes, biovores and tyranno-fexes. Even in those cases, the changes were not enough (except venoms, which I'm actually not unhappy with).
This argument is ridiculous, with any army facing weapons that ignore cover, D weapons etc, things are going to die. So basically you want a point and click, auto-win force that never suffers a casualty, well ok Tyranids likely won't work for you.
Based on this thread I'd think Tyranids are only allowed to play against the Tau. Is "competitive" 40k really just a filtered down match of the current top-tier net-lists?
the old codex nids were far away from being auto win .They were realy hard to play , but skilled people could do something with them . I wasn't one of them , I play IG . If it was out for my army being good , I should be happy about nids new codex.
Nids right now are like oldcrons . They have a rule build in to their codex that makes them lose . If all nids were base Ld 9-10 one could say that synaps is just a random factor , added for flavor and fluff . But nids are not Ld 9-10. The synaps they have now makes units that are technicly better , like a flyarant, worse then the weaker one , like a foot tyrant. No army that forces someone to play weaker units will be better , then one that didn't have to do it .
Above the being or not being allowed to play against tau , there are no such things in the rules .
This argument is ridiculous, with any army facing weapons that ignore cover, D weapons etc, things are going to die. So basically you want a point and click, auto-win force that never suffers a casualty, well ok Tyranids likely won't work for you.
Based on this thread I'd think Tyranids are only allowed to play against the Tau. Is "competitive" 40k really just a filtered down match of the current top-tier net-lists?
the old codex nids were far away from being auto win .They were realy hard to play , but skilled people could do something with them . I wasn't one of them , I play IG . If it was out for my army being good , I should be happy about nids new codex.
Nids right now are like oldcrons . They have a rule build in to their codex that makes them lose . If all nids were base Ld 9-10 one could say that synaps is just a random factor , added for flavor and fluff . But nids are not Ld 9-10. The synaps they have now makes units that are technicly better , like a flyarant, worse then the weaker one , like a foot tyrant. No army that forces someone to play weaker units will be better , then one that didn't have to do it .
Above the being or not being allowed to play against tau , there are no such things in the rules .
This all over, the new nids are now like oldcrons where you have to take certain units or autolose. And it just so happens that these units are also highly focusable and oftentimes not that good or have their effectiveness restricted by having to keep all the units in order instead of doing damage like they should do, e.x. zoans sitting back popping dominion instead of pew pewing with warp blast.
Maybe it is the month passing that made the folk saying "wait a month and see how awesome it is, you are just missing it!" stop responding; now they are missing it too.
kirsanth wrote: Maybe it is the month passing that made the folk saying "wait a month and see how awesome it is, you are just missing it!" stop responding; now they are missing it too.
Except it hasn't been a month yet.
In any case, I'd give a Codex about a year before it can be said whether it is weak or strong. A lot can change in that amount of time, as the rules are updated and new tactics are discovered.
You can stand by it, but it's not a fact. Let's see this list.
This reads as "I just wrote a list proving that things got cheaper."
I must have a different (new) Tyranid codex than everyone else, I see a LOT of units getting cheaper. In fact, with the models I own, no matter how hard I try there is no combination I could make that is more expensive.
My Hive Tyrant with 2xTL-Devourers (add wings) is 230 (versus 260) with better BS.
Tyrant guard cheaper
Lictor cheaper
Zoanthropes cheaper
Venomthropes cheaper
Pyrovore (lol) cheaper
Shrikes cheaper
Ravener same
Gargoyles same
Harpy cheaper
Warriors same
Genestealers same
Termagants cheaper
Hormogaunts cheaper
Carnifex cheaper
Biovore cheaper
Trygon cheaper
Mawloc cheaper
Tyrannofex cheaper
kirsanth wrote: Maybe it is the month passing that made the folk saying "wait a month and see how awesome it is, you are just missing it!" stop responding; now they are missing it too.
Except it hasn't been a month yet.
In any case, I'd give a Codex about a year before it can be said whether it is weak or strong. A lot can change in that amount of time, as the rules are updated and new tactics are discovered.
I'm not commenting on the state of the codex but I can't help but laugh at this.
Cmon guys the weekend isn't over yet give it a chance.
Cmon guys it's only been a week give it a chance.
Cmon guys it hasn't even been a month yet give it a chance.
Cmon guys give it at least a year.
I'm sorry, but this is all I've been hearing from the defenders for the past week.
kirsanth wrote: Maybe it is the month passing that made the folk saying "wait a month and see how awesome it is, you are just missing it!" stop responding; now they are missing it too.
Except it hasn't been a month yet.
In any case, I'd give a Codex about a year before it can be said whether it is weak or strong. A lot can change in that amount of time, as the rules are updated and new tactics are discovered.
I'm not commenting on the state of the codex but I can't help but laugh at this.
Cmon guys the weekend isn't over yet give it a chance.
Cmon guys it's only been a week give it a chance.
Cmon guys it hasn't even been a month yet give it a chance.
Cmon guys give it at least a year.
I'm sorry, but this is all I've been hearing from the defenders for the past week.
These 25 pages of nonsense remind of those the folks still pissed about losing the Genestealer Cult, it was 15 something years ago, let it go... the brief romance with Nidzilla is dead or changed, the standard Tervigon spam net-list is dead or changed - we have something new, it's different, but it allows you to put huge numbers of bread-and-butter troops on the table which really is the essence of the bug army and very effective for winning most missions.
What I'm hearing here is - well the Tau, since we all only play against Tau, will simply snipe all of your Warriors, all of your Shrikes, Zoanthropes, Trygon Primes and HQ synapse etc in the 3 turns before you eat them with a mass assault, and you will fail all leadership rolls, then roll 1-3 on the FEED chart and your entire army will eat itself... That IS frightening.
Gunzhard wrote: I must have a different (new) Tyranid codex than everyone else, I see a LOT of units getting cheaper. In fact, with the models I own, no matter how hard I try there is no combination I could make that is more expensive.
My Hive Tyrant with 2xTL-Devourers (add wings) is 230 (versus 260) with better BS.
Tyrant guard cheaper
Lictor cheaper
Zoanthropes cheaper
Venomthropes cheaper
Pyrovore (lol) cheaper
Shrikes cheaper
Ravener same
Gargoyles same
Harpy cheaper
Warriors same
Genestealers same
Termagants cheaper
Hormogaunts cheaper
Carnifex cheaper
Biovore cheaper
Trygon cheaper
Mawloc cheaper
Tyrannofex cheaper
Pretty sure that Shrikes didn't change, but otherwise the list looks right.
Mostly it's just that cheaper does not always equal better, especially when the power level of models went down as the points when down. A prime example: Trygons (see what i did there?) got 10 points cheaper, but lost their rerolls to hit in melee. I'd gladly pay the 10 points for that.
Only a handful of models came down in price without taking a nerf in the process, and of those that did, only an even smaller handful of those became suddenly useful.
Zoanthropes took a versatility and IMO power hit. Brotherhood of Psykers is not as good as 3 individual users.
Pyrovore: You could drop this thing another 10 PPM and STILL no one would take it. Without Spods or Torrent, it is pretty much DoA.
Lictors: 15 points cheaper, gained infiltrate. Good buffs for an underused model. It still lost its rerolls (but gained an attack) and lost rending on Flesh Hooks.
Termagants: lost their TS/AG AND LD from a nearby Tervigon. You want those biomorphs, you pay MORE per model than previously. Was the tervigon cut in price or did it remain the same for losing this ability? Nope, we all know how that turned out.
Hormagaunts: Lost their rerolls in CC. -1PPM not really big enough to make someone take Horms over Terms. Should really have come down to the same price point.
Carnifex: Was stupidly overpriced before (so you never saw them). Down to where they should have been, but lost an attack in the process. Making a CC fex? They get the attack back, but still lost their rerolls. There's also almost 0 reason to take crushing claws anymore, imo.
Trygon has been covered.
There are definitely some buffed units:
Biovores: The new spore rule is strange and should probably have been 1 mine per biovore to make full broods more worthwhile than single models, but enh.
Tyrannofex: That you could drop 75 points off this guy shows how insanely priced he was. As it is, the only thing he really has going for him over other models in this slot is that 2+, which we lost anywhere else.
As to "there is no combination I could make that is more expensive", you're just not trying hard enough. Did you previously pay points to have a Tervigon (as a troop) with TS/AG to pass onto Termagants? Welp, there you go. If you want those Terms with TS/AG, and that Terv as a troop you're paying WAY more than you used to.
Old
10x Term: 50
Terv w TS/AG: 180
Total: 230
New
30x Term w TS/AG: 240
Terv: 195
Total: 435
(Keep in mind, that Tervigon no longer has TS/AG himself, that'd be another 25 points)
But let's pretend we don't care about TS/AG on Terms
30x Term: 120
Terv: 195
Total : 315
Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.
If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?
And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.
Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.
If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?
And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.
Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.
If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?
And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.
Guys! The book doesn't suck! YOU DO!
Your words not mine. I said it will compete when you do.
Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.
If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?
And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.
Guys! The book doesn't suck! YOU DO!
Your words not mine. I said it will compete when you do.
No, that is pretty much exactly what you said. Just in simpler and less floofy words that try to hide the point you're trying to make.
Gunzhard wrote: I must have a different (new) Tyranid codex than everyone else, I see a LOT of units getting cheaper. In fact, with the models I own, no matter how hard I try there is no combination I could make that is more expensive.
My Hive Tyrant with 2xTL-Devourers (add wings) is 230 (versus 260) with better BS.
Tyrant guard cheaper
Lictor cheaper
Zoanthropes cheaper
Venomthropes cheaper
Pyrovore (lol) cheaper
Shrikes cheaper
Ravener same
Gargoyles same
Harpy cheaper
Warriors same
Genestealers same
Termagants cheaper
Hormogaunts cheaper
Carnifex cheaper
Biovore cheaper
Trygon cheaper
Mawloc cheaper
Tyrannofex cheaper
Pretty sure that Shrikes didn't change, but otherwise the list looks right.
Mostly it's just that cheaper does not always equal better, especially when the power level of models went down as the points when down. A prime example: Trygons (see what i did there?) got 10 points cheaper, but lost their rerolls to hit in melee. I'd gladly pay the 10 points for that.
Only a handful of models came down in price without taking a nerf in the process, and of those that did, only an even smaller handful of those became suddenly useful.
Zoanthropes took a versatility and IMO power hit. Brotherhood of Psykers is not as good as 3 individual users.
Pyrovore: You could drop this thing another 10 PPM and STILL no one would take it. Without Spods or Torrent, it is pretty much DoA.
Lictors: 15 points cheaper, gained infiltrate. Good buffs for an underused model. It still lost its rerolls (but gained an attack) and lost rending on Flesh Hooks.
Termagants: lost their TS/AG AND LD from a nearby Tervigon. You want those biomorphs, you pay MORE per model than previously. Was the tervigon cut in price or did it remain the same for losing this ability? Nope, we all know how that turned out.
Hormagaunts: Lost their rerolls in CC. -1PPM not really big enough to make someone take Horms over Terms. Should really have come down to the same price point.
Carnifex: Was stupidly overpriced before (so you never saw them). Down to where they should have been, but lost an attack in the process. Making a CC fex? They get the attack back, but still lost their rerolls. There's also almost 0 reason to take crushing claws anymore, imo.
Trygon has been covered.
There are definitely some buffed units:
Biovores: The new spore rule is strange and should probably have been 1 mine per biovore to make full broods more worthwhile than single models, but enh.
Tyrannofex: That you could drop 75 points off this guy shows how insanely priced he was. As it is, the only thing he really has going for him over other models in this slot is that 2+, which we lost anywhere else.
As to "there is no combination I could make that is more expensive", you're just not trying hard enough. Did you previously pay points to have a Tervigon (as a troop) with TS/AG to pass onto Termagants? Welp, there you go. If you want those Terms with TS/AG, and that Terv as a troop you're paying WAY more than you used to.
Old
10x Term: 50
Terv w TS/AG: 180
Total: 230
New
30x Term w TS/AG: 240
Terv: 195
Total: 435
(Keep in mind, that Tervigon no longer has TS/AG himself, that'd be another 25 points)
But let's pretend we don't care about TS/AG on Terms
30x Term: 120
Terv: 195
Total : 315
Still 85 points more, AND less effective to boot!
Yeah again you are talking about the one Tervigon-net-build... but based on the ideas in this thread - Tau would snipe that thing dead in turn 1 anyway leaving you with no Tervigon and certainly no TS/AG.
I think I'll get a few more Thunderfire cannons for my SM's and a few more flammers for my SOB with exorcists to target the big boys.
Target everything at the synapse creatures.
I'm not saying that it will be easy, far from it. A Nid list can and will win sometimes. But against an opponent that knows what they're doing with a half decent list its very much an uphill battle. That may be alright for some.
That's not my complaint. My complaint is the copy and past job they did with the dex and the lazy almost random way they wrote the rules.
Its a weak codex.
It's also a poorly written one that won't gain many new nid players and has turned a few current nid players away. (not good business sense)
Me, I play SOB so I'm used to uphill battles so people that think I'm complaining because I'm a WAAC player? Hardly. But I also don't want to play an army that self destructs if my player happens to know what to shoot at.
Your words not mine. I said it will compete when you do.
Which is an odd desire given the codex in discussion.
Once I can be competitive to top-tier armys with the Tyranid Codex as printed I can discuss why it is not competitive? If not it is because of me, not the book. Right?
That reads like an idiot's statement. I hope I misread.
Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.
If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?
And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.
Guys! The book doesn't suck! YOU DO!
Your words not mine. I said it will compete when you do.
No, that is pretty much exactly what you said. Just in simpler and less floofy words that try to hide the point you're trying to make.
You sir, don't know me well enough. So I am gonna' let that slide.
kirsanth wrote: I am going to do like the ignorant white knights.
Things are cheaper if you don't upgrade them to be useful!
This book is the best!
Oh wait, Carnifex are still more than 4e so it is an AWESOME UPGRADE because I am too new to understand stupid.
Lol ...I bet you are pissed that Genestealer Cults are gone too. Let it go dude - let your old Tervigon-netlist go, this is a new book for a new edition, take an objective look at it.
This whole thread is just a tat for tat comparison and it's totally skewed and inaccurate ...for one thing, most of the units are cheaper _with_ the useful upgrades.
kirsanth wrote: I am going to do like the ignorant white knights.
Things are cheaper if you don't upgrade them to be useful!
This book is the best!
Oh wait, Carnifex are still more than 4e so it is an AWESOME UPGRADE because I am too new to understand stupid.
Lol ...I bet you are pissed that Genestealer Cults are gone too. Let it go dude - let your old Tervigon-netlist go, this is a new book for a new edition, take an objective look at it.
This whole thread is just a tat for tat comparison and it's totally skewed and inaccurate ...for one thing, most of the units are cheaper _with_ the useful upgrades.
Tottaly agree that even with upgrades things are still cheaper and in some case ALSO more usefull
Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.
If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?
And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.
Yeah, that is a convincing argument. "You're just bad at the game, so stop whinning." NO ONE is saying they are upset because this codex isn't top tier, we are upset because it put unreasonable restrictions on the army, is boring, bland, and unintuitive, it is STILL full of useless units that will never see play, on top of all that they nerfed somethings that were obviously SOOO powerful. I mean everyone remember the terror of Scything Talon spam? How it just ruined the game by making mediocre units into good units? How ridiculous it was to have up to 6 S8 AP 4 shots at BS 4 for 150 points? The only nerf that makes sense to me as a long time Tyranid player was to Tervigons, but they went from possibly best troop in the game to a giant bullet sponge that's only synergy with the army is that it HURTS you more than it helps. It can't shoot, it can't assault, it can get a good buff going 1/6 of the time, and it is a massive liability but we will STILL take it because it is BETTER than the other options.
That in a nut shell is the 6th Tyranid codex, there is nothing to get excited about with this army, it is a list building exercise in taking what is the LEAST crap. It will do fine in casual games if it sticks to a certain few units, outside of those units you will do poorly even at a casual level. Let that sink in, this codex has to spam its best choices to compete casually. Sadly, its best options will put it above most casual list but bellow most competitive list.
Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.
If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?
And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.
I largely agree. New codexs should aim for the middle, and not the top, to create a properly balanced game. The main problem with that is that isn't how GW does things. A new codex can literally be the best in the game, or mid-tier, but almost never the absolute worst. Therefore, any new book that starts at mid-tier (5th edition nids, current nids, current Dark Angels....etc) is only going to slide downwards as the odd new book pops to the top of the list. With very very few exceptions, an army will only get worse over time in relation to other armies that get updated (The only exception I can think of off-hand is 6th edition nids getting a big boost with Biomancy).
With nids STARTING on the lower end of middle tier (Call it 14 armies overall I think, not including supplements, I'd peg nids between 9th and 11th) there's really nowhere to go but down from here.
Codex Tyranids penalizes you for playing the army and doesn't compensate you in any way, it doesn't do anything over the top special that counters the fact that the army can collapse in on itself.
Should an army do things that are "OTT special"? Why? Do vanilla Marines do something OTT Special?
Synapse is a major thing for Nids. Always has been. Having a ponzi scheme of synapse creatures in the swarm is how the Nids have always been described as working, with the will of the Hive Mind filtering down to the lowliest bugs through its various Synapse creatures, and killing them has always been the #1 rule of Tyranids, go as far back as 3rd edition (?) with the "Shoot the Big Ones!" rule (this allowed anyone playing against Tyranid to target your big bugs, regardless of any intervening models).
So this is hardly the first time the army has "penalized" you for playing it. Also not the first time bugs would eat one another with IB. That's... 2nd ed? Old, at least, I remember people bitching about it happening way, way back in the day. I've never been a bug fan myself, so have no first-hand experience with them.
Psienesis wrote: Should an army do things that are "OTT special"? Why? Do vanilla Marines do something OTT Special?
Synapse is a major thing for Nids. Always has been. Having a ponzi scheme of synapse creatures in the swarm is how the Nids have always been described as working, with the will of the Hive Mind filtering down to the lowliest bugs through its various Synapse creatures, and killing them has always been the #1 rule of Tyranids, go as far back as 3rd edition (?) with the "Shoot the Big Ones!" rule (this allowed anyone playing against Tyranid to target your big bugs, regardless of any intervening models).
So this is hardly the first time the army has "penalized" you for playing it. Also not the first time bugs would eat one another with IB. That's... 2nd ed? Old, at least, I remember people bitching about it happening way, way back in the day. I've never been a bug fan myself, so have no first-hand experience with them.
The problem is at those points is that they were far less painful. 4th edition even gave Eternal warrior with it.
2Nd edition nids were unique in that they got their own special cards and things that others did not.
Psienesis wrote: Should an army do things that are "OTT special"? Why? Do vanilla Marines do something OTT Special?
Synapse is a major thing for Nids. Always has been. Having a ponzi scheme of synapse creatures in the swarm is how the Nids have always been described as working, with the will of the Hive Mind filtering down to the lowliest bugs through its various Synapse creatures, and killing them has always been the #1 rule of Tyranids, go as far back as 3rd edition (?) with the "Shoot the Big Ones!" rule (this allowed anyone playing against Tyranid to target your big bugs, regardless of any intervening models).
So this is hardly the first time the army has "penalized" you for playing it. Also not the first time bugs would eat one another with IB. That's... 2nd ed? Old, at least, I remember people bitching about it happening way, way back in the day. I've never been a bug fan myself, so have no first-hand experience with them.
And in 3rd they had mutable creatures so every troop had a hive node that made them pretty much independent of synapse. And minuses to Ld were based on outnumbering not on wounds.
In 4th you had Nidzilla and stealer shock
In 5th it sucked and the only way to win was tervigon spam and speed bump people to death. Then 6th gave them biomancy and they became mid tier.
Those are examples of being compensated for being penalized for synapse. As for vanilla marines, they have chapter tactics, which work as army wide buffs that you can mix and match as you please with allies, as well as 'and they shall know no fear' which is dumb good. Oh and grav weapons.
Codex Tyranids penalizes you for playing the army and doesn't compensate you in any way, it doesn't do anything over the top special that counters the fact that the army can collapse in on itself.
Penalize you hah - for playing the same list you played in last edition perhaps? This is a new book, for a new edition. The Tervigon-spam list has changed - move on... most of the rest of the book is FAR cheaper (compensation).
Here's the reality of the arguments in this thread:
"old codex, new codex, most codex - Tau will snipe you dead"
"my old list sucks now, apparently I didn't realize a new codex would affect this"
"everything is worse and more expensive, except the majority of the units in the book"
"Tau will snipe you dead"
"It's not about WAAC - but I can't just drop these models on the table and auto-win"
Grav Weapons are only situationally useful... if you go up against low-armor armies, Grav Guns aren't that impressive.
Chapter Tactics aren't all that and a bag of chips. They're flavorful, and sometimes cool (and probably should not apply to allies from a different Codex), but I can't think of one that is OTT. OTT would be like giving Necrons 2+ RP rolls.
The mutants Nids had back in the day was based on how many different units you took in your total army build, and then only went from there. Someone tried to explain it to me, but it was too complicated for my (at the time) Ork mind. I seem to recall that there were some pretty stringent limits placed on how many mutants you could have, and of what type.
ATSKNF is kind of broken, but it's always been broken, but it's also not a "trick". It's an always-on sort of deal, not like a "You did X, so I can do Y, which lets me also do ABC, 123 and 7,8 and 9, too!" sort of deal. Not like, say, Warp Quake shenanigans. Or MSS. MSS in general is a trick. Or...ah.. whats-his-face... the guy who replaces other guys who kill him... whatever, that guy.
Codex Tyranids penalizes you for playing the army and doesn't compensate you in any way, it doesn't do anything over the top special that counters the fact that the army can collapse in on itself.
Penalize you hah - for playing the same list you played in last edition perhaps? This is a new book, for a new edition. The Tervigon-spam list has changed - move on... most of the rest of the book is FAR cheaper (compensation).
Here's the reality of the arguments in this thread:
"old codex, new codex, most codex - Tau will snipe you dead"
"my old list sucks now, apparently I didn't realize a new codex would affect this"
"everything is worse and more expensive, except the majority of the units in the book"
"Tau will snipe you dead"
"It's not about WAAC - but I can't just drop these models on the table and auto-win"
"this book sucks - Tau are too powerful"
If you honestly believe that's what the complaints are, then your reading comprehension sucks. There are legitimate problems with the dex and pointing them out shouldn't hinder you from having fun. If you like the dex, then go for it.
Codex Tyranids penalizes you for playing the army and doesn't compensate you in any way, it doesn't do anything over the top special that counters the fact that the army can collapse in on itself.
Penalize you hah - for playing the same list you played in last edition perhaps? This is a new book, for a new edition. The Tervigon-spam list has changed - move on... most of the rest of the book is FAR cheaper (compensation).
Here's the reality of the arguments in this thread:
"old codex, new codex, most codex - Tau will snipe you dead"
"my old list sucks now, apparently I didn't realize a new codex would affect this"
"everything is worse and more expensive, except the majority of the units in the book"
"Tau will snipe you dead"
"It's not about WAAC - but I can't just drop these models on the table and auto-win"
"this book sucks - Tau are too powerful"
You aren't comprehending this....
In 3rd and 4th there were ways to reliably mitigate the negative effects of synapse, in 5th you had a mono build and synapse wasn't an issue til late game. Early 6th you had deployment options and hard synapse pegs. Now you can be crippled in a turn and you aren't given anything to help patch the problems, instead you were handed more problems, sure take buckets of termagants and hormagaunts, half will pin themselves or run away while the other half actually kill themselves.
Having synapse just be fearless and IB being representive by their low Ld was good enough, to add charts and further negatives to that is extremely poor design. No other army has to worry about its unit killing itself off an objective with that amount of certainty.
Nids are weak in the first turn and late game. Right there you are looking at uphill battle games where your tactics basically involve hoping your opponent rolls poorly*
*Not a real tactic, in case you're being thick.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psienesis wrote: Grav Weapons are only situationally useful... if you go up against low-armor armies, Grav Guns aren't that impressive.
okay sure. Tiggy and his 6 buddies disagree.
Psienesis wrote: Chapter Tactics aren't all that and a bag of chips. They're flavorful, and sometimes cool (and probably should not apply to allies from a different Codex), but I can't think of one that is OTT. OTT would be like giving Necrons 2+ RP rolls.
And more then a dozen variations including the forgeworld ones.
Psienesis wrote: The mutants Nids had back in the day was based on how many different units you took in your total army build, and then only went from there. Someone tried to explain it to me, but it was too complicated for my (at the time) Ork mind. I seem to recall that there were some pretty stringent limits placed on how many mutants you could have, and of what type.
Not complicated or restrictive, Ld10 fast moving hormagants and T7 S7 2+ save tyrants.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: Honestly? No, I never plan on running Zoanthropes because I don't have enough elite slots. This is where I am really feeling the crunch because I am going to auto include two groups of one Venomthropes to give my army the coverage it needs and fill the other slot with the, admittedly bad but awesome looking, Haruspex. Or maybe some Hive Guard if I ever feel like playing them again.
I don't think that the problem is synapse range, I think the problem is how hard it is to keep your synapse alive when playing against a semi decent opponent.
I see that, there is some competition there mostly because you want to auto include 2 x Venomthrope slots in the army! Have you tried the JY2 trick with the bastion? (or some similar large fortress) to increase the range of the Venomthrope and maybe then it justifies taking just the 1? I personally also like the option of the comms relay as I like to reserve.
I'm going to try and test a couple of the lists further back in the thread which are allot less reliant on synapse also.
Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.
If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?
And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.
Yeah, that is a convincing argument. "You're just bad at the game, so stop whinning." NO ONE is saying they are upset because this codex isn't top tier, we are upset because it put unreasonable restrictions on the army, is boring, bland, and unintuitive, it is STILL full of useless units that will never see play, on top of all that they nerfed somethings that were obviously SOOO powerful. I mean everyone remember the terror of Scything Talon spam? How it just ruined the game by making mediocre units into good units? How ridiculous it was to have up to 6 S8 AP 4 shots at BS 4 for 150 points? The only nerf that makes sense to me as a long time Tyranid player was to Tervigons, but they went from possibly best troop in the game to a giant bullet sponge that's only synergy with the army is that it HURTS you more than it helps. It can't shoot, it can't assault, it can get a good buff going 1/6 of the time, and it is a massive liability but we will STILL take it because it is BETTER than the other options.
That in a nut shell is the 6th Tyranid codex, there is nothing to get excited about with this army, it is a list building exercise in taking what is the LEAST crap. It will do fine in casual games if it sticks to a certain few units, outside of those units you will do poorly even at a casual level. Let that sink in, this codex has to spam its best choices to compete casually. Sadly, its best options will put it above most casual list but bellow most competitive list.
I so disagree, I can find some very decent choices in every slots, and lets not pretend there is a codex that doesnt have some crap choices, they ALL have SOME crap choices.
And we have a better internal balance than before, used to be you would always see the same list for nids:
2 flyrants (maybe a swarmlord) 2 tervigon 2 min unit of termagaunt doom in a pod sometimes some gargoyles/ymgarlm genestealers/Deathleaper hive guards or maybe zoanthrope in a pod trygon or biovore (biovore got better in this new codex !!!!)
those were the only thing we had now I see about double the amount of decent choice in our new codex
Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.
If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?
And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.
Yeah, that is a convincing argument. "You're just bad at the game, so stop whinning." NO ONE is saying they are upset because this codex isn't top tier, we are upset because it put unreasonable restrictions on the army, is boring, bland, and unintuitive, it is STILL full of useless units that will never see play, on top of all that they nerfed somethings that were obviously SOOO powerful. I mean everyone remember the terror of Scything Talon spam? How it just ruined the game by making mediocre units into good units? How ridiculous it was to have up to 6 S8 AP 4 shots at BS 4 for 150 points? The only nerf that makes sense to me as a long time Tyranid player was to Tervigons, but they went from possibly best troop in the game to a giant bullet sponge that's only synergy with the army is that it HURTS you more than it helps. It can't shoot, it can't assault, it can get a good buff going 1/6 of the time, and it is a massive liability but we will STILL take it because it is BETTER than the other options.
That in a nut shell is the 6th Tyranid codex, there is nothing to get excited about with this army, it is a list building exercise in taking what is the LEAST crap. It will do fine in casual games if it sticks to a certain few units, outside of those units you will do poorly even at a casual level. Let that sink in, this codex has to spam its best choices to compete casually. Sadly, its best options will put it above most casual list but bellow most competitive list.
I so disagree, I can find some very decent choices in every slots, and lets not pretend there is a codex that doesnt have some crap choices, they ALL have SOME crap choices.
And we have a better internal balance than before, used to be you would always see the same list for nids:
2 flyrants (maybe a swarmlord)
2 tervigon
2 min unit of termagaunt
doom in a pod
sometimes some gargoyles/ymgarlm genestealers/Deathleaper
hive guards or maybe zoanthrope in a pod
trygon or biovore (biovore got better in this new codex !!!!)
those were the only thing we had
now I see about double the amount of decent choice in our new codex
I so disagree, I can find some very decent choices in every slots, and lets not pretend there is a codex that doesnt have some crap choices, they ALL have SOME crap choices.
And we have a better internal balance than before, used to be you would always see the same list for nids:
2 flyrants (maybe a swarmlord)
2 tervigon
2 min unit of termagaunt
doom in a pod
sometimes some gargoyles/ymgarlm genestealers/Deathleaper
hive guards or maybe zoanthrope in a pod
trygon or biovore (biovore got better in this new codex !!!!)
those were the only thing we had
now I see about double the amount of decent choice in our new codex
Noone is saying that the 5th edition book was a pinnacle of awesomeness, just that it was better than what we have now.
We all hated the 5th edition book for all the reasons we hate the 6th edition one....bland, restrictive and boiled down to 4-6 useful units while the rest were laughably bad. Now, it's the exact same book....but without the 4-6 useful units, now it's 3, winged tyrants, venomthropes and biovores, the rest is laughably bad in the grander scheme.
In 3rd and 4th there were ways to reliably mitigate the negative effects of synapse, in 5th you had a mono build and synapse wasn't an issue til late game. Early 6th you had deployment options and hard synapse pegs. Now you can be crippled in a turn and you aren't given anything to help patch the problems, instead you were handed more problems, sure take buckets of termagants and hormagaunts, half will pin themselves or run away while the other half actually kill themselves.
Having synapse just be fearless and IB being representive by their low Ld was good enough, to add charts and further negatives to that is extremely poor design. No other army has to worry about its unit killing itself off an objective with that amount of certainty.
Nids are weak in the first turn and late game. Right there you are looking at uphill battle games where your tactics basically involve hoping your opponent rolls poorly*
I got it loud and clear - you are totally stumped by the new synapse, because - let me guess, Tau will just snipe all of your synapse models dead before deployment. It's different and more strict, but it's not that difficult. You can take plenty of synapse, you can increase the range of synapse if you need to, you do NOT automatically fail leadership checks and then roll a 1-3 on the 'feed' chart as soon as you put your models on the table, your synapse models do not auto-die on turn 1.
In 3rd and 4th there were ways to reliably mitigate the negative effects of synapse, in 5th you had a mono build and synapse wasn't an issue til late game. Early 6th you had deployment options and hard synapse pegs. Now you can be crippled in a turn and you aren't given anything to help patch the problems, instead you were handed more problems, sure take buckets of termagants and hormagaunts, half will pin themselves or run away while the other half actually kill themselves.
Having synapse just be fearless and IB being representive by their low Ld was good enough, to add charts and further negatives to that is extremely poor design. No other army has to worry about its unit killing itself off an objective with that amount of certainty.
Nids are weak in the first turn and late game. Right there you are looking at uphill battle games where your tactics basically involve hoping your opponent rolls poorly*
I got it loud and clear - you are totally stumped by the new synapse, because - let me guess, Tau will just snipe all of your synapse models dead before deployment. It's different and more strict, but it's not that difficult. You can take plenty of synapse, you can increase the range of synapse if you need to, you do NOT automatically fail leadership checks and then roll a 1-3 on the 'feed' chart as soon as you put your models on the table, your synapse models do not auto-die on turn 1.
Ah yes, detractors of the dex are just stupid and don't know how to play and passing Ld6 tests is super easy every turn and killing 3 to 4 MCs a turn isn't a thing. Gotcha.
Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.
If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?
And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.
Yeah, that is a convincing argument. "You're just bad at the game, so stop whinning." NO ONE is saying they are upset because this codex isn't top tier, we are upset because it put unreasonable restrictions on the army, is boring, bland, and unintuitive, it is STILL full of useless units that will never see play, on top of all that they nerfed somethings that were obviously SOOO powerful. I mean everyone remember the terror of Scything Talon spam? How it just ruined the game by making mediocre units into good units? How ridiculous it was to have up to 6 S8 AP 4 shots at BS 4 for 150 points? The only nerf that makes sense to me as a long time Tyranid player was to Tervigons, but they went from possibly best troop in the game to a giant bullet sponge that's only synergy with the army is that it HURTS you more than it helps. It can't shoot, it can't assault, it can get a good buff going 1/6 of the time, and it is a massive liability but we will STILL take it because it is BETTER than the other options.
That in a nut shell is the 6th Tyranid codex, there is nothing to get excited about with this army, it is a list building exercise in taking what is the LEAST crap. It will do fine in casual games if it sticks to a certain few units, outside of those units you will do poorly even at a casual level. Let that sink in, this codex has to spam its best choices to compete casually. Sadly, its best options will put it above most casual list but bellow most competitive list.
I so disagree, I can find some very decent choices in every slots, and lets not pretend there is a codex that doesnt have some crap choices, they ALL have SOME crap choices.
And we have a better internal balance than before, used to be you would always see the same list for nids:
2 flyrants (maybe a swarmlord)
2 tervigon
2 min unit of termagaunt
doom in a pod
sometimes some gargoyles/ymgarlm genestealers/Deathleaper
hive guards or maybe zoanthrope in a pod
trygon or biovore (biovore got better in this new codex !!!!)
those were the only thing we had
now I see about double the amount of decent choice in our new codex
Oh, please DO tell us.
even though Im sure your totally sarcastic. I will.
so all the ones I previously mentionned are still decents choices now(except for the doom and ymgarl which are obsolete), some less strong then before but still see some use in each of them.
Mawlocs, Trygon Prime, Dakkafex, Harpy, Crone, Shrikes, Warriors, Genestealers, Lictors, Venomthropes, Hormagaunts
Termagaunts werent good before, they merely allowed you to get a tervigon, now they are actually good.
even the raveners could find some use against certain armies.
so all the ones I previously mentionned are still decents choices now(except for the doom and ymgarl which are obsolete), some less strong then before but still see some use in each of them.
Mawlocs, Trygon Prime, Dakkafex, Harpy, Crone, Shrikes, Warriors, Genestealers, Lictors, Venomthropes, Hormagaunts
Termagaunts werent good before, they merely allowed you to get a tervigon, now they are actually good.
even the raveners could find some use against certain armies.
Nice and specific.
I don't want to say "Raveners will never see the table", because I'm 100% sure there are people that will field them. But the reality of the unit is that pretty much anything they can do, can be done better by a different unit. Heck, even Shrikes in the same fast attack slot are almost universally better. For the same point cost and 1I, you get a synapse creature instead of a Ld6 beast.
Although I just noticed that making CC Warriors (RC/ST) now costs 5 points MORE than it used to. Thanks GW.
Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.
If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?
And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.
Yeah, that is a convincing argument. "You're just bad at the game, so stop whinning." NO ONE is saying they are upset because this codex isn't top tier, we are upset because it put unreasonable restrictions on the army, is boring, bland, and unintuitive, it is STILL full of useless units that will never see play, on top of all that they nerfed somethings that were obviously SOOO powerful. I mean everyone remember the terror of Scything Talon spam? How it just ruined the game by making mediocre units into good units? How ridiculous it was to have up to 6 S8 AP 4 shots at BS 4 for 150 points? The only nerf that makes sense to me as a long time Tyranid player was to Tervigons, but they went from possibly best troop in the game to a giant bullet sponge that's only synergy with the army is that it HURTS you more than it helps. It can't shoot, it can't assault, it can get a good buff going 1/6 of the time, and it is a massive liability but we will STILL take it because it is BETTER than the other options.
That in a nut shell is the 6th Tyranid codex, there is nothing to get excited about with this army, it is a list building exercise in taking what is the LEAST crap. It will do fine in casual games if it sticks to a certain few units, outside of those units you will do poorly even at a casual level. Let that sink in, this codex has to spam its best choices to compete casually. Sadly, its best options will put it above most casual list but bellow most competitive list.
I so disagree, I can find some very decent choices in every slots, and lets not pretend there is a codex that doesnt have some crap choices, they ALL have SOME crap choices.
And we have a better internal balance than before, used to be you would always see the same list for nids:
2 flyrants (maybe a swarmlord)
2 tervigon
2 min unit of termagaunt
doom in a pod
sometimes some gargoyles/ymgarlm genestealers/Deathleaper
hive guards or maybe zoanthrope in a pod
trygon or biovore (biovore got better in this new codex !!!!)
those were the only thing we had
now I see about double the amount of decent choice in our new codex
Oh, please DO tell us.
even though Im sure your totally sarcastic. I will.
so all the ones I previously mentionned are still decents choices now(except for the doom and ymgarl which are obsolete), some less strong then before but still see some use in each of them.
Mawlocs, Trygon Prime, Dakkafex, Harpy, Crone, Shrikes, Warriors, Genestealers, Lictors, Venomthropes, Hormagaunts
Termagaunts werent good before, they merely allowed you to get a tervigon, now they are actually good.
even the raveners could find some use against certain armies.
Let's break it down unit by unit,
Flyrants: Still great, still a much better choice than a walking Tyrant. In fact, now they are universally better than a walking Tyrant.
Tervigon: Were nerfed into nothing but a solid synapse anchor that can score. They can't melee, they can't reliably buff, and they sure can't shoot. So all they really do is sit around and generate synapse, which doesn't make them bad but they aren't really good. They are just kinda there in terms of power.
Hive Guard: They lost a BS and went up in points for no reason, on either count. They are still decent enough but why did they need to be nerfed?
Zoanthropes: Never really used them before, might start using them a bit now. Overall I think they are a decent choice for elites but as I stated earlier they have a lot of competition in the elite slot still.
Tyrgons: No, these guys got worse. A lot worse, both prime and regular. The lost of Scything Talons rerolls means that they are getting a lot less hits and if they smashed that really matters. Now with that said, I am might run them once in awhile, it is just that compared to Carnifex and Exocrine they really don't bring much to the table except for synapse on the prime. But the prime is REALLY expensive just for some synapse on a decent CCMC.
Biovores: No argument here, rock on you beautiful bastards.
Mawlocs: For the life of me I can not understand peoples praise of these things. I ran them in 5th, know how they work in 5th, they didn't really change in 6th. Just like in 5th they will pop up, eat a couple of units, then get shot to pieces. Or assaulted by a semi-competant assault unit. WS3 A3 makes them kinda weak for the same reason that the Haruspex, which true story I just watched a game where a group of Conscripts CHARGED a Haruspex, delt enough wounds to win combat, and sweeping advanced the Haruspex.
Harpy/Crone: Seen them fielded multiple times, looked over the numbers, everything about them is just substandard. The Harpy has a better time of things because he has the utility to do what he was designed to do. The Crone just doesn't have the power to do what he was designed to do, hunt other fliers.
Warriors/Genestearls/Lictors/Shrieks: Really? Okay, if you think THESE are good then I call into question your judgement.
Hormagaunts: Statistically are the same, the drop in points actually makes up for the lack of rerolling ones with the extra attacks gained from the extra gaunts. Problem is they weren't to hot to begin with. They have trouble actually killing things in CC because they have no AP, don't hit hard, don't hit a lot, and are only WS3. They are best as a screen which is cheaper with Termagants.
Termagants: Exact same except one point cheaper...So I don't get where you are saying they used to be bad but are now good. You mean splitting weapons? I guess that is good...
Raveners: My favorite unit in the codex. They are just...sad...They are okay against some armies, throw away against some, just to expensive for what they do. Warriors have more potential because they can take BS/LW.
Only HQ unit without it is the Hive Guard, but I think you auto include them with a Hive Tyrant so that is covered. The Deathleaper is without. Everyone else is either synapse or fearless and thus auto pass their synapse check.
Troops have the warriors are synapse but all others are without and not fearless. That makes sense in the lore. BTW, Ripper swarms are fearless,but I don't think they will ever see table.
Elites have Zoantropes as synapse and Haruspex are fearless but all others are without.
Fast has Shrikes as synapse, Harpy, Crone, and spore mines are fearless. That means Ravener, Red Terror, and gargoyles are without.
Heavy support everything is fearless or synapse except Biovores. Note: Trygon Prime is a synapse.
19 out of 33 are immune to synapse rules out right, never testing, 58% of the army never tests. Almost all the HQ and Heavy are free from testing. The only weak link is Gargoyles and the elites. IMHO that is not a game breaker. So I really need to baby sit my terms and gargoyles. The rest need to be next or in my big guys. I am not as worried now. My vemontrope is without, but I was going to have him walk behind my MCs with synapse anyway. My gargoyles will need to rush with my Harpies and have to have a Flyrant to keep things moving. My Biovores need someone, so can I just buy a cheap unit of warriors and have them hang out with them at an objective that I place at the back field.
Just saying, but was later told fearless is no help with the IB check, oh well.
yes I'm loving it. I should email this to my buddy, he'll practically GIVE me his 'Nids!
Really though, who cares if the codex sucks? Name one codex that doesn't suck in some way. Tau are sucky because they're too easy, Space Marines suck because GW loves them, Dark Eldar suck because some unit got nerfed way back in the day, Eldar suck because, well see the above picture, I could go on and on.
Point is serious players, and by that I mean the guys with 3 or 4 armies and a dedicated games table strewn with homemade terrain, will take their new codex in stride, home rule the stuff that needs it and laugh at the haters on the forums who are still desperately trying to convince themselves that GW will be around in 5 years. Which, I can't bloody wait for that because then I'll buy ALL your models for the low low cost of whatever it takes to stem your tears. Trust me.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: NO ONE is saying they are upset because this codex isn't top tier, we are upset because it put unreasonable restrictions on the army, is boring, bland, and unintuitive, it is STILL full of useless units that will never see play, on top of all that they nerfed somethings that were obviously SOOO powerful. I mean everyone remember the terror of Scything Talon spam? How it just ruined the game by making mediocre units into good units? How ridiculous it was to have up to 6 S8 AP 4 shots at BS 4 for 150 points? The only nerf that makes sense to me as a long time Tyranid player was to Tervigons, but they went from possibly best troop in the game to a giant bullet sponge that's only synergy with the army is that it HURTS you more than it helps. It can't shoot, it can't assault, it can get a good buff going 1/6 of the time, and it is a massive liability but we will STILL take it because it is BETTER than the other options.
That in a nut shell is the 6th Tyranid codex, there is nothing to get excited about with this army, it is a list building exercise in taking what is the LEAST crap. It will do fine in casual games if it sticks to a certain few units, outside of those units you will do poorly even at a casual level. Let that sink in, this codex has to spam its best choices to compete casually. Sadly, its best options will put it above most casual list but bellow most competitive list.
The fact that no one seems to get that and, worse, can only respond with various takes on "But the prices went down", "Just wait a week/month/year/until the heat-death of the universe!", "So it's not a WAAC instant-win button!" and the always meaningless "Use tactics!" (or even the utterly mystifying "You're just angry about Genestealer Cults"... I mean... Red Herring much?) just shows a consistent lack of critical thinking applied to this book and inability to see the bad that's there.
No really... that's your attempt an argument? "Everything is somehow sucky!". Ever heard of the "golden mean" fallacy?
sgtpjbarker wrote: I just reread the rule, beginning of your turn you take a leadership test. Fearless always pass morale rolls, so leadership test are not covered?
All Morale Tests are Leadership Tests. Not all Leadership Tests are Morale Tests.
sgtpjbarker wrote: I just reread the rule, beginning of your turn you take a leadership test. Fearless always pass morale rolls, so leadership test are not covered?
If IB worked this way it would be a complete non-issue...but no, it does not. Look at it this way, GW has some terrible writers but why on earth would they list a fearless unit with IB: Feed, such as the Haruspex. They are immune to moral rolls, but not to IB.
Which just made me realize that the game I just watched, the Haruspex should not have been swept by the Conscripts...ohh well, the IG player still worked over the synapse creatures and the game was over anyways.
@Gunzhard For the last 10 pages you've been the only one who keeps mentioning how Tyranids will stack up against Tau. Meanwhile everyone else has calmly tried to explain that it's not the power level of the Codex they are not happy with. It's the copy/paste job from an already lazy 5th edition Codex, the adding of about 5% new Artwork and fluff, not fixing a single broken unit thus leaving the internal balance outside of Heavy Support an absolute mess, sheer frustration at things that we can't comprehend like Rippers going up in price and Pyrovores staying terrible, the removal.. I repeat the removal of units from the previous Codex... the day one DLC in the shape of Data Slates and the frustration that we now have to live with this dex for another 3-5 years after we just endured the last one.
To be perfectly honest the Codex does have viable builds and has as much chance against Tau/Eldar asmost other armies but it's just the complete lack of effort that appears to have been put into this book that boggles the mind and is why so many of us are "whining".
This is at no one in particular but from what I can tell a lot of the people who dislike the Codex are Tyranid players who started in 2nd/3rd/4th and a lot of the "White Knights" are people who I presume with how often they're quoting rules and point values wrong and the list they used to take are:
A: People who started nids in 5th with the 5th Codex and thus did not endure the pain of the 4th to 5th transition like so many of us.
B: People who started nids in 6th with 5th Codex.
C: People who never played nids and just like a good argument.
Zande4 wrote: @Gunzhard For the last 10 pages you've been the only one who keeps mentioning how Tyranids will stack up against Tau. Meanwhile everyone else has calmly tried to explain that it's not the power level of the Codex they are not happy with. It's the copy/paste job from an already lazy 5th edition Codex, the adding of about 5% new Artwork and fluff, not fixing a single broken unit thus leaving the internal balance outside of Heavy Support an absolute mess, sheer frustration at things that we can't comprehend like Rippers going up in price and Pyrovores staying terrible, the removal.. I repeat the removal of units from the previous Codex... the day one DLC in the shape of Data Slates and the frustration that we now have to live with this dex for another 3-5 years after we just endured the last one.
To be perfectly honest the Codex does have viable builds and has as much chance against Tau/Eldar asmost other armies but it's just the complete lack of effort that appears to have been put into this book that boggles the mind and is why so many of us are "whining".
This is at no one in particular but from what I can tell a lot of the people who dislike the Codex are Tyranid players who started in 2nd/3rd/4th and a lot of the "White Knights" are people who I presume with how often they're quoting rules and point values wrong and the list they used to take are:
A: People who started nids in 5th with the 5th Codex and thus did not endure the pain of the 4th to 5th transition like so many of us.
B: People who started nids in 6th with 5th Codex.
C: People who never played nids and just like a good argument.
I can agree with this. NONE of my complaints have been about if I can win games with the new book.
its about just how plain bad the book is, and how if feels so disappointing, especially with the such high expectations coming on the heels of the last several books (i.e. tons of options, cool builds, lots of flexibility etc.).
I have games under my belt now, and have seen even more, and can say, yes, we can win games with the book. I can also say, its a disappointing book, with needless nerfs (I find the scything talon nerf, to be the most damaging, especially with out access to allies other ways to get rerolls) and lackluster options.
Sure, there are many strong units, and things that work. But it feels like they are either auto-include (flyrants) or just not thought out well (tyrnaid prime????)..
I also find the lack of an eternal warrior upgrade option or invul saves to be just brutal when fighting against opponents in their point classes (lysander, calgar, dragio, big demons, etc.) - yes, I know, I can hit them with huge squads of gants.
thats not the point. I don't want to have the swarm lord dodge combat against a worthy adversary - I want him to engage him in an epic battle of "forging a narrative" proportions!!!
And without a better invul save or eternal warrior ...tragically its just ugly (not to mention the psy grenades out there thanks to the inq dex...yeah, thanks for making nids psykers guys).
Part of the problem is that nid players felt marginalized in the last book, then with some of the recent books being so good - expectations were high.
And the book fails to deliver....even close.
The book is not bad....its just not good. And that my friends, is bad.
sgtpjbarker wrote: I just reread the rule, beginning of your turn you take a leadership test. Fearless always pass morale rolls, so leadership test are not covered?
If IB worked this way it would be a complete non-issue...but no, it does not. Look at it this way, GW has some terrible writers but why on earth would they list a fearless unit with IB: Feed, such as the Haruspex. They are immune to moral rolls, but not to IB.
Which just made me realize that the game I just watched, the Haruspex should not have been swept by the Conscripts...ohh well, the IG player still worked over the synapse creatures and the game was over anyways.
You are right. I know GW will not FAQ it to read. Fearless units auto pass IB. It is just terrible writing on their part. I wonder if they made the same mistake I did and think fearless is worth something here?
Bummer, synapse is done wrong. So we have our O&G in 40k and their ain't even Orks.
Zande4 wrote: @Gunzhard For the last 10 pages you've been the only one who keeps mentioning how Tyranids will stack up against Tau. Meanwhile everyone else has calmly tried to explain that it's not the power level of the Codex they are not happy with. It's the copy/paste job from an already lazy 5th edition Codex, the adding of about 5% new Artwork and fluff, not fixing a single broken unit thus leaving the internal balance outside of Heavy Support an absolute mess, sheer frustration at things that we can't comprehend like Rippers going up in price and Pyrovores staying terrible, the removal.. I repeat the removal of units from the previous Codex... the day one DLC in the shape of Data Slates and the frustration that we now have to live with this dex for another 3-5 years after we just endured the last one.
To be perfectly honest the Codex does have viable builds and has as much chance against Tau/Eldar asmost other armies but it's just the complete lack of effort that appears to have been put into this book that boggles the mind and is why so many of us are "whining".
This is at no one in particular but from what I can tell a lot of the people who dislike the Codex are Tyranid players who started in 2nd/3rd/4th and a lot of the "White Knights" are people who I presume with how often they're quoting rules and point values wrong and the list they used to take are:
A: People who started nids in 5th with the 5th Codex and thus did not endure the pain of the 4th to 5th transition like so many of us.
B: People who started nids in 6th with 5th Codex.
C: People who never played nids and just like a good argument.
I'm sorry but that's a load... "calmly tried to explain" - hah most of this thread is a frantic panic attack. Your response seems measured and calm, but that's not the general temperature of this thread and the Tau/Eldar comparison dominated the early part of this thread as well. And as much as those resolved to hate this book dislike hearing it - it IS still very early to judge.
As for the copy/paste job - if you are talking fluff, sadly this has happened with every codex to varying degrees and personally I think if they are gonna just rehash this stuff they should make the books cheaper. If you are talking about rules, this is where things kind of get nonsensical... some of the same people complaining that their old (tervigon-spam) list is nerfed, are also upset the book is not totally different. You have your reason for "whining", heck I don't even disagree, but a large percentage of this thread, and the several other Sky-Is-Falling nid-codex threads are full of total nonsense.
Personally with ALL of the newer codex I truly hate the organization and this one is particular bad in that regard. You have to flip back to several different sections just to generate one unit.
Gunzhard wrote: I'm sorry but that's a load... "calmly tried to explain" - hah most of this thread is a frantic panic attack.
Actually most of this thread has been calm analysis of the problems with this Tyranid Codex (and ridicule of those who lack basic reading comprehension skills, but we've gotto have our fun somewhere! ). The fact that you continue to both ignore that and insult everyone every time you post reflects more on you than it does on the thread's other participants.
Carnage43 wrote: Noone is saying that the 5th edition book was a pinnacle of awesomeness, just that it was better than what we have now.
We all hated the 5th edition book for all the reasons we hate the 6th edition one....bland, restrictive and boiled down to 4-6 useful units while the rest were laughably bad. Now, it's the exact same book....but without the 4-6 useful units, now it's 3, winged tyrants, venomthropes and biovores, the rest is laughably bad in the grander scheme.
I got it loud and clear - you are totally stumped by the new synapse, because - let me guess, Tau will just snipe all of your synapse models dead before deployment. It's different and more strict, but it's not that difficult. You can take plenty of synapse, you can increase the range of synapse if you need to, you do NOT automatically fail leadership checks and then roll a 1-3 on the 'feed' chart as soon as you put your models on the table, your synapse models do not auto-die on turn 1.
hehe. so true. So true.
As usually happens, I now feel compelled to borrow some Tyranids and do 20 games with it to unlock the puzzle. First Ill get monkey stomped. And ill tweak it. Then I'll tie. and I'll tweak it some more. Then I'll win. Because the codex isn't dictating that FOR ME. I'm quite sue of it. I don't see in the Tyranids the kind of fail that Necrons were for so long for example. I mean you talk about a Codex that just got FORGOTTEN! That and the old Dark Eldar codex are the only codex's I ever felt got left behind utterly, and even then Dark Eldar had a good build you could use all the way up to its resurrection. And even despite that Necron codex, I was able to make it about an inch from the third round of Ard Boyz with necrons (that one inch haunts me...Lol).
This is no necrons situation folks. And I am thinking the Dataslates may make some Tyranid players happy (as unfair as i do indeed find that statement to be, it's probably also true)
I got it loud and clear - you are totally stumped by the new synapse, because - let me guess, Tau will just snipe all of your synapse models dead before deployment. It's different and more strict, but it's not that difficult. You can take plenty of synapse, you can increase the range of synapse if you need to, you do NOT automatically fail leadership checks and then roll a 1-3 on the 'feed' chart as soon as you put your models on the table, your synapse models do not auto-die on turn 1.
hehe. so true. So true.
As usually happens, I now feel compelled to borrow some Tyranids and do 20 games with it to unlock the puzzle. First Ill get monkey stomped. And ill tweak it. Then I'll tie. and I'll tweak it some more. Then I'll win. Because the codex isn't dictating that FOR ME. I'm quite sue of it. I don't see in the Tyranids the kind of fail that Necrons were for so long for example. I mean you talk about a Codex that just got FORGOTTEN! That and the old Dark Eldar codex are the only codex's I ever felt got left behind utterly, and even then Dark Eldar had a good build you could use all the way up to its resurrection. And even despite that Necron codex, I was able to make it about an inch from the third round of Ard Boyz with necrons (that one inch haunts me...Lol).
This is no necrons situation folks. And I am thinking the Dataslates may make some Tyranid players happy (as unfair as i do indeed find that statement to be, it's probably also true)
Necron Fail, they only failed in 5th due to the renovation of the glance mechanic, That's only when it started hurting them.
The gist of why people are pissed.
I have payed over 500 dollars on tyranids. This SHOULD include the ability to use them in a competition. GW has pretty much said (with the "dataslates") you will need to pay extra for.
Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.
If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?
And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.
Yeah, that is a convincing argument. "You're just bad at the game, so stop whinning." NO ONE is saying they are upset because this codex isn't top tier, we are upset because it put unreasonable restrictions on the army, is boring, bland, and unintuitive, it is STILL full of useless units that will never see play, on top of all that they nerfed somethings that were obviously SOOO powerful. I mean everyone remember the terror of Scything Talon spam? How it just ruined the game by making mediocre units into good units? How ridiculous it was to have up to 6 S8 AP 4 shots at BS 4 for 150 points? The only nerf that makes sense to me as a long time Tyranid player was to Tervigons, but they went from possibly best troop in the game to a giant bullet sponge that's only synergy with the army is that it HURTS you more than it helps. It can't shoot, it can't assault, it can get a good buff going 1/6 of the time, and it is a massive liability but we will STILL take it because it is BETTER than the other options.
That in a nut shell is the 6th Tyranid codex, there is nothing to get excited about with this army, it is a list building exercise in taking what is the LEAST crap. It will do fine in casual games if it sticks to a certain few units, outside of those units you will do poorly even at a casual level. Let that sink in, this codex has to spam its best choices to compete casually. Sadly, its best options will put it above most casual list but bellow most competitive list.
Isn't everybody getting a bit bored of repeating the same points again and again? This thread should really be put out of its misery.
I confess, we gave up on nids for six months after 6th dropped, we got so depressed about loving our beloved genestealers. But life - or rather, interplanetary predation - goes on. Personally I'd rather see people use the codex, slag off the crap units after having tried them, than spend the next six months arguing over text in a book.
the shrouded lord wrote: The gist of why people are pissed.
I have payed over 500 dollars on tyranids. This SHOULD include the ability to use them in a competition. GW has pretty much said (with the "dataslates") you will need to pay extra for.
People are using the new Nids in tournaments. They do have the ability, but they will struggle against some setups for sure. The new codex has problems, so the Hive Mind have been working to overcome them. Naturally these people wish the codex were better, but not everyones jumping ship in competative play.
Personally with ALL of the newer codex I truly hate the organization and this one is particular bad in that regard. You have to flip back to several different sections just to generate one unit.
Now this I can agree with, I absolutely hate the new layout in the 6th edition Codices it's a fail of epic proportions..
Carnage43 thanks for breaking that down it isn't as good as I though unless your going against an AV 13-15. I have seen some people use the AV 15 Buildings. It would still be good there and also vs the super high Toughness Eldar you see now and then. It would also insta kill harpies/crowns so it still will have it uses.
Also vs vehicles they get no deny the witch which is another plus.
Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.
If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?
And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.
Yeah, that is a convincing argument. "You're just bad at the game, so stop whinning." NO ONE is saying they are upset because this codex isn't top tier, we are upset because it put unreasonable restrictions on the army, is boring, bland, and unintuitive, it is STILL full of useless units that will never see play, on top of all that they nerfed somethings that were obviously SOOO powerful. I mean everyone remember the terror of Scything Talon spam? How it just ruined the game by making mediocre units into good units? How ridiculous it was to have up to 6 S8 AP 4 shots at BS 4 for 150 points? The only nerf that makes sense to me as a long time Tyranid player was to Tervigons, but they went from possibly best troop in the game to a giant bullet sponge that's only synergy with the army is that it HURTS you more than it helps. It can't shoot, it can't assault, it can get a good buff going 1/6 of the time, and it is a massive liability but we will STILL take it because it is BETTER than the other options.
That in a nut shell is the 6th Tyranid codex, there is nothing to get excited about with this army, it is a list building exercise in taking what is the LEAST crap. It will do fine in casual games if it sticks to a certain few units, outside of those units you will do poorly even at a casual level. Let that sink in, this codex has to spam its best choices to compete casually. Sadly, its best options will put it above most casual list but bellow most competitive list.
Isn't everybody getting a bit bored of repeating the same points again and again? This thread should really be put out of its misery.
I confess, we gave up on nids for six months after 6th dropped, we got so depressed about loving our beloved genestealers. But life - or rather, interplanetary predation - goes on. Personally I'd rather see people use the codex, slag off the crap units after having tried them, than spend the next six months arguing over text in a book.
I am getting tired of repeating myself, giving valid complaints about this book to have people just shrug them off and counter with a non sequitur. I am not upset at the units we lost, I am upset at the units that continue to be bad and that there are so many of them in the book and absolutely no attempt was made to fix them. I didn't like the 5th codex at all because it was Codex: Tervigon, I feel this new codex is just Codex: Flyrant. It is like the CSM book in that it relies on a crutch to hobble along for a slightly competitive build.
I haven't stopped playing my Tyranids from 3rd up to 6th now and I have no intention of doing so, despite having five other armies. Tyranids are my first love in this game, I will play them through thick and thin, but it is frustrating to see people defending this book then showing that the have obviously not read it by quoting stats that don't exist, making mistakes about very simple rules, and just over exaggerating how useful some units are. I had someone argue with me about Lictors and how viable they are. Sorry but they are elites, a competitive slow full of decent options, that can't even do what they set out to do. They aren't very good assassins and their pheromone trail isn't really useful in this new codex considering most things lost the ability to deep strike. The codex is filled with units that can't even do effectively what they were designed to do, like the Hive Crone. It was supposed to be our anti-flyer unit and it is extremely lack luster in that regard because it is more than likely only going to take off two hull points in a single turn and it will NOT survive the return fire.
Carnage43 wrote: Noone is saying that the 5th edition book was a pinnacle of awesomeness, just that it was better than what we have now.
We all hated the 5th edition book for all the reasons we hate the 6th edition one....bland, restrictive and boiled down to 4-6 useful units while the rest were laughably bad. Now, it's the exact same book....but without the 4-6 useful units, now it's 3, winged tyrants, venomthropes and biovores, the rest is laughably bad in the grander scheme.
How is a Dakkafex laughably bad?
Because it's still not good. People are stuck on the "It's 40 points CHEAPER! So it MUST be good now!" mind set. The thing is, it was AWFUL in 5th edition, and the 40 point decrease still doesn't bring it into line with other good monstrous creatures.
It's main issues is that it tries to be a swiss army knife unit, and all the roles it tries to fill can be done better by other units.
Anti-Infantry? 19 Devourer gaunts or 3 biovores will do it better. Gaunts will do it at the same range, and biovores will do it at twice the range and without LoS.
Anti-vehicle? Hive Guard will do this better, as would a Crone I imagine. The loss of the spore pod really kills them in this role, as having to walk across the board and shoot at front armor really stings.
Melee? 3 WS3 attacks with no rerolls, even at S9 AP2, is impressing no one. Hell, Assault Centurions can beat these guys in combat point for point, and they are not very good. The only thing these guys shine against in melee is T4 multi-wound creatures (which are basically extinct) and dreadnoughts (also extinct). 80% of the book is better in melee than these guys.
Deathstar/tough unit? 38+ points per T6 wound is not very good on T6 3+ save with no invul. A riptide is 40 points per wound, but gets a 2+/5++, Canotpyk Spiders are 25 for T6 3+, a base dreadknight is 32.5 for 2+/5++. Carnifexes are pretty much the least survivable monstrous creatures in the game point for point.
Anti-air? Leave that to your winged tyrants and/or crone
It's a swiss army knife unit that tries to be good at several things, but ends up second rate at all of them. It's tactical squad syndrome all over again. Some people like units like this, but personally, I think they are awful. I much prefer a unit that is the unrivaled best at it's role, with anything else it can do being gravy. To add insult to injury, it's in the highly contested heavy support slot, so taking fexes means less biovores/exocrines/whatevers.
Carnage, I have to agree about the Carnifex. I had been thinking about it a lot lately. The idea of running 3 dakkafex sounds great on paper, until you realize it's generally 25% of your points or more in one unit. Sure, they will melt pretty much whatever they shoot at, but because they can only shoot one unit, will take pretty much every round of shooting to make up their points. Not to mention their range isn't that great given how slow they are. They just seem like a total red herring unit.
I think GW just severely over-estimates how good "flexible" units are. Because flexible units are almost always going to be better off hyper-specializing, to not waste potential. Especially in small squads with expensive models.
Anti-Infantry? 19 Devourer gaunts or 3 biovores will do it better. Gaunts will do it at the same range, and biovores will do it at twice the range and without LoS.
19 guants will die to a stiff breeze
Carnage43 wrote: Anti-vehicle? Hive Guard will do this better, as would a Crone I imagine. The loss of the spore pod really kills them in this role, as having to walk across the board and shoot at front armor really stings.
Comparing typical number of glances+pens, a single dakkafex will do much better than Hive Guard against AV10/11, and about the same VS AV12. The indirect fire and ignoring cover is useful, but then again so is volume of fire and re-rolls to hit for getting snapshots when needed.
Of course there's nothing to stop you taking both units, and really the decision comes down to the rest of your list and if Elite or HS slots are more valuable. Also don't forget Onslaught can help to close the gap.
Carnage43 wrote: Melee? 3 WS3 attacks with no rerolls, even at S9 AP2, is impressing no one. Hell, Assault Centurions can beat these guys in combat point for point, and they are not very good. The only thing these guys shine against in melee is T4 multi-wound creatures (which are basically extinct) and dreadnoughts (also extinct). 80% of the book is better in melee than these guys.
This is a rather poor comparison:
1) Centurions are a very specialised unit equipped with relatively rare I4 AP2 weapons perfectly designed to kill MC's in melee. Would you tell people not to take Flyrants because Quad-guns exist? I think that match-up is far more likely to happen too.
2) How hard can it be to avoid melee with a Slow and Purposeful unit anyway, especially when your MC can take Fleet?
3) You skipped over the automatically-hitting bonus HoW attacks, which on a S9 unit can be pretty significant.
4) You didn't finish your sentence:
"The only thing these guys shine against in melee is T4 multi-wound creatures (which are basically extinct) and dreadnoughts (also extinct) AND ALSO ANY VEHICLE EVER"
Statisically, 2 Fexes with no upgrades are likely to wreck or explode virtually anything AV13 or below in one round of combat. Throw on Adrenal Glands and they're likely to take out AV14 in one round too.
Something else interesting to note is that Fexes with Frag Spines will now always get to attack before any powerfists or other Unwieldy weapons. This can make a huge difference in their survivability against infantry.
Carnage43 wrote: Deathstar/tough unit? 38+ points per T6 wound is not very good on T6 3+ save with no invul. A riptide is 40 points per wound, but gets a 2+/5++, Canotpyk Spiders are 25 for T6 3+, a base dreadknight is 32.5 for 2+/5++. Carnifexes are pretty much the least survivable monstrous creatures in the game point for point.
By throwing on Shrouded or FNP onto one them, the whole unit benefits. This can help squeeze the most from Venomthropes or Catalyst. It's also pretty easy to pull off wound allocation shenanigans by shuffling position, letting them stay around longer.
The Riptides and Dreadknight comparisons perplex me, as they're not in the Tyranid codex and therefore aren't an alternative option to Carnifexes. Trygons and T-fexes would have been a better comparison, but of course the number of points per wound isn't the only factor in picking a unit or you'd be telling us to spam Mawlocs.
Carnage43 wrote: Anti-air? Leave that to your winged tyrants and/or crone
What if I don't want to buy a Crone, and only own one Flyrant? Relying on FMCs generally means building a list around several of them for redundancy, and results in a boring mono-build style a la the old Tervigon list. Plus I bet there's more of us out there with multiple Fexes than multiple Crones.
It's all very well saying you want specialised units to perfectly counter everything that can be thrown at you, but in reality that's hardly practical. Opponents do something unexpected, crucial dice rolls go the wrong way, key units can get caught out of place or lost at a bad time, and plans unravel. Sometimes it is better to have a few generalist units that can switch role when needed. Carnifexes can fill a gap when your Crone gets Quad-gunned to death on arrival, or your Flyrant fails that key grounding test. I don't get how you can say a unit is 'awful' just because it isn't the mathematically optimal choice for a specific situation.
A Carnifex isn't perfect for most roles, but it's good at a lot of them. And in the codex that brought us the Pyrovore, Genestealers and Rippers, I think that's great.
The thing that I am going to miss more than anything else is the character classification that certain MC units had, notably the Trygon Prime and Tervigon, though I rarely used the latter. The ability to challenge is something I used on these guys to great effect to extend their lifespan. It meant I would not be quickly ground down by a single power fist squad leader or tooled out character. Precision shots on the Trygon Prime was also a nice feature. But now, if a unit has a hidden fist in it, I get to eat wounds from it, meaning that your average Tactical squad grinds me out before I grind them out, especially without the rerolls. And that's not even getting into the likely wounds I lose on the approach to Plasma and Missiles.
Pods would be a very close second. As someone who sometimes used a large unit of warriors, pods were a way for me to get them in close to where half the squad might make it into combat. Now not only do the same warriors cost more while being less effective (AP3 Boneswords, Scything nerf), but you get to get mowed down by bolters before a single model sees a fight. And that's a fluff bunny unit, not even a serious tourney unit. I guess their plan is to make people use Trygon tunnels, since now there is literally no other option for deep strike.....
Carnifexes used to be even cheaper in 4th and even then they were barely cutting it as gun platforms and were near useless for melee. And the average power level of the game was much lower then. There were no Jaws, barely any poison, no "pass a single stat test or die" gak. They're really incredibly bad now.
Building the current basic Fex under the 4th ed. codex would have cost 113 pts, exact same stats and everything. You could buy him T7, or a 2+ save, or frag grenades, not to mention all sorts of crazy things like spore generators. And all that was barely cutting it then.
Why do people keep going on about HoW hits on a carnifex? Whoopdie do, d3 Str 9 hits AP - hits. They don't help vs infantry that matter (anything with a high save). They don't help vs infantry that don't matter (low save units tend to have tons of guys anyways, and are cheap and unimportant). It misses the key value of Str 10, so it doesn't ID toughness 5 guys.
The only thing it helps against is vehicles. Guess what a carnifex already kills really well in melee, if they can catch em? Guess what HoW doesn't help a carnifex do?
Personally with ALL of the newer codex I truly hate the organization and this one is particular bad in that regard. You have to flip back to several different sections just to generate one unit.
Now this I can agree with, I absolutely hate the new layout in the 6th edition Codices it's a fail of epic proportions..
Yeah totally agreed. I loved the layout in 5th ed, this "streamlining" in 6th Codices is just irritating.
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JPong wrote: Why do people keep going on about HoW hits on a carnifex? Whoopdie do, d3 Str 9 hits AP - hits. They don't help vs infantry that matter (anything with a high save). They don't help vs infantry that don't matter (low save units tend to have tons of guys anyways, and are cheap and unimportant). It misses the key value of Str 10, so it doesn't ID toughness 5 guys.
The only thing it helps against is vehicles. Guess what a carnifex already kills really well in melee, if they can catch em? Guess what HoW doesn't help a carnifex do?
Unfortunately, you have to actually *catch* things with a Carnifex use that...
Makumba wrote: Well I don't think the codex is good , but it is better to have d3 HoW , then not having it .
Sort of. If the ability were totally free, then yes, it is obviously better. However, from a game design perspective, we know the ability isn't free. Therefore if you're paying for it, it has to provide something new and useful. Since the ability is only really useful against vehicles, we need to look at the carnifex's ability to kill vehicles. The carnifex was already really good at ccing vehicles. That makes this ability of marginal use. It's not enough attacks to make a dent against swarms, and it has no AP making it of little use against elite units
If it were to give the carnifex new options, or utility to do something it couldn't do before, then it would be good. I would rather the fex be 5-10 points cheaper than get a useless ability. Think of the tyrant for example. He is paying for WS 8, which, as long as that stupid chart stays the way it is, 2-3 WS is almost always useless. It's paying for useless utility.
GW never realy was good at costing units . When they are doing strick specialist units for stuff like eldar , it works great , because you get BS 9999 and rest is meh , but you will use this unit only to shot . But when they do those jack of all trades units they suck at it , just like you say . High WS on BS units making them cost too much , stupid melee abilities shoting units will never use . I know those units as an IG player to be stuff like ogruns, storm troopers or RR.
Because it's still not good. People are stuck on the "It's 40 points CHEAPER! So it MUST be good now!" mind set. The thing is, it was AWFUL in 5th edition, and the 40 point decrease still doesn't bring it into line with other good monstrous creatures.
It's main issues is that it tries to be a swiss army knife unit, and all the roles it tries to fill can be done better by other units.
Anti-Infantry? 19 Devourer gaunts or 3 biovores will do it better. Gaunts will do it at the same range, and biovores will do it at twice the range and without LoS.
Anti-vehicle? Hive Guard will do this better, as would a Crone I imagine. The loss of the spore pod really kills them in this role, as having to walk across the board and shoot at front armor really stings.
Melee? 3 WS3 attacks with no rerolls, even at S9 AP2, is impressing no one. Hell, Assault Centurions can beat these guys in combat point for point, and they are not very good. The only thing these guys shine against in melee is T4 multi-wound creatures (which are basically extinct) and dreadnoughts (also extinct). 80% of the book is better in melee than these guys.
Deathstar/tough unit? 38+ points per T6 wound is not very good on T6 3+ save with no invul. A riptide is 40 points per wound, but gets a 2+/5++, Canotpyk Spiders are 25 for T6 3+, a base dreadknight is 32.5 for 2+/5++. Carnifexes are pretty much the least survivable monstrous creatures in the game point for point.
Anti-air? Leave that to your winged tyrants and/or crone
It's a swiss army knife unit that tries to be good at several things, but ends up second rate at all of them. It's tactical squad syndrome all over again. Some people like units like this, but personally, I think they are awful. I much prefer a unit that is the unrivaled best at it's role, with anything else it can do being gravy. To add insult to injury, it's in the highly contested heavy support slot, so taking fexes means less biovores/exocrines/whatevers.
Yeah na.. you said "Laughably bad"
A TMC with a 12 x shot Str 6 twin linked gun for 120 + Gun's (cant remember the cost off the top of my head) is not a laughably bad unit...
I'm a brand new tyranid player and a new-ish 40k player in general but I personally quite like the book. Maybe that is simply because I don't know what previous codices were like; but this book seems to stand up to the Tau and Space Marine books fine. At least in friendly games anyway. I have friends who play both Tau and Space Marines and I don't see either of those books as outclassing the Tyranids. That's just me though!
Because it's still not good. People are stuck on the "It's 40 points CHEAPER! So it MUST be good now!" mind set. The thing is, it was AWFUL in 5th edition, and the 40 point decrease still doesn't bring it into line with other good monstrous creatures.
It's main issues is that it tries to be a swiss army knife unit, and all the roles it tries to fill can be done better by other units.
Anti-Infantry? 19 Devourer gaunts or 3 biovores will do it better. Gaunts will do it at the same range, and biovores will do it at twice the range and without LoS.
Anti-vehicle? Hive Guard will do this better, as would a Crone I imagine. The loss of the spore pod really kills them in this role, as having to walk across the board and shoot at front armor really stings.
Melee? 3 WS3 attacks with no rerolls, even at S9 AP2, is impressing no one. Hell, Assault Centurions can beat these guys in combat point for point, and they are not very good. The only thing these guys shine against in melee is T4 multi-wound creatures (which are basically extinct) and dreadnoughts (also extinct). 80% of the book is better in melee than these guys.
Deathstar/tough unit? 38+ points per T6 wound is not very good on T6 3+ save with no invul. A riptide is 40 points per wound, but gets a 2+/5++, Canotpyk Spiders are 25 for T6 3+, a base dreadknight is 32.5 for 2+/5++. Carnifexes are pretty much the least survivable monstrous creatures in the game point for point.
Anti-air? Leave that to your winged tyrants and/or crone
It's a swiss army knife unit that tries to be good at several things, but ends up second rate at all of them. It's tactical squad syndrome all over again. Some people like units like this, but personally, I think they are awful. I much prefer a unit that is the unrivaled best at it's role, with anything else it can do being gravy. To add insult to injury, it's in the highly contested heavy support slot, so taking fexes means less biovores/exocrines/whatevers.
Yeah na.. you said "Laughably bad"
A TMC with a 12 x shot Str 6 twin linked gun for 120 + Gun's (cant remember the cost off the top of my head) is not a laughably bad unit...
So your response is "Nuh uh, IT'S GOOD!" with nothing to back that up. No math, no comparisons, not even a silly anecdote of "Well it killed 75 space marines last game for me!". Nothing? Well, I'm certainly convinced.....<cough>
As far as the tyranid codex goes, I'd rate the dakka dex as poor to mediocre. In the grander scheme of things, it's laughably bad.
Anti-Infantry? 19 Devourer gaunts or 3 biovores will do it better. Gaunts will do it at the same range, and biovores will do it at twice the range and without LoS.
19 guants will die to a stiff breeze
Where's your venomthrope/cover save? You were taking it into effect further down in the survivability argument. 19 guants with a 3+ cover save are actually tougher to remove with every weapon in the game (barring ignores cover stuff of course) than a carnifex. I could number crunch it for you, but the 19 wounds offsets the toughness advantage against small arms when they are both getting a 3+ cover save. Plus the gaunts are scoring. I'm not going to legitimately try to argue that 19 guants is tougher to kill than a carnifex, but give optimal circumstances....they kinda are.
Carnage43 wrote: Anti-vehicle? Hive Guard will do this better, as would a Crone I imagine. The loss of the spore pod really kills them in this role, as having to walk across the board and shoot at front armor really stings.
Comparing typical number of glances+pens, a single dakkafex will do much better than Hive Guard against AV10/11, and about the same VS AV12. The indirect fire and ignoring cover is useful, but then again so is volume of fire and re-rolls to hit for getting snapshots when needed.
Of course there's nothing to stop you taking both units, and really the decision comes down to the rest of your list and if Elite or HS slots are more valuable. Also don't forget Onslaught can help to close the gap.
HG have better range, ignore cover and don't need line of sight. The ignore cover alone is enough to tip the scales. You are also 6 wounds vs 4 (although 3+ vs 4+ save....4+ is WAY worse) but that's somewhat needless as the HG shouldn't even be taking any fire since they don't need LOS. Instant death against T4 is gravy. Again, I think this is a largely silly argument, and you know it too. I'll admit it's probably closer than I'd like to admit, and the carnifexes' other advantages will tip the scales in it's favor in a TAC environment.
Just because I'm curious;
AV10; Carni (4HP, 0.50 destroyed), HG (2.16HP, 0.33 destroyed) Clear carni win here, but both are likely to blow up a 3HP vehicle in 1 volley, and almost certain to kill a 2HP. In a case of cover, the carni still has the edge.
AV11 Carni (2.75HP, 0.25 destroyed), HG (1.75hp, 0.25 destroyed) Clear carni win here, it's toasting a rhino fairly solidly, where the HG are only doing 2/3 damage. In a case of 5+ cover they are pretty much dead even though.
AV12 Carni (1.5HP, 0 destroyed), HG (1.33HP, 0.17 destroyed) Dead even, maybe with a minor edge to Hive Guard because of the damage on the vehicle chart. In a case of cover the HG have the clear edge.
AV13+ HG obviously win.
Your numbers checkout. The only issue I see is with the carnifexes in units....they are super overkill against AV10 and AV11, at least multiple HG units have pseudo split fire. Looks like the BS3 nerf on HG hurt more than I thought really. Going to have to reconsider anti-tank I think.
Carnage43 wrote: Melee? 3 WS3 attacks with no rerolls, even at S9 AP2, is impressing no one. Hell, Assault Centurions can beat these guys in combat point for point, and they are not very good. The only thing these guys shine against in melee is T4 multi-wound creatures (which are basically extinct) and dreadnoughts (also extinct). 80% of the book is better in melee than these guys.
This is a rather poor comparison:
1) Centurions are a very specialised unit equipped with relatively rare I4 AP2 weapons perfectly designed to kill MC's in melee. Would you tell people not to take Flyrants because Quad-guns exist? I think that match-up is far more likely to happen too.
2) How hard can it be to avoid melee with a Slow and Purposeful unit anyway, especially when your MC can take Fleet?
3) You skipped over the automatically-hitting bonus HoW attacks, which on a S9 unit can be pretty significant.
4) You didn't finish your sentence:
"The only thing these guys shine against in melee is T4 multi-wound creatures (which are basically extinct) and dreadnoughts (also extinct) AND ALSO ANY VEHICLE EVER"
Statisically, 2 Fexes with no upgrades are likely to wreck or explode virtually anything AV13 or below in one round of combat. Throw on Adrenal Glands and they're likely to take out AV14 in one round too.
Something else interesting to note is that Fexes with Frag Spines will now always get to attack before any powerfists or other Unwieldy weapons. This can make a huge difference in their survivability against infantry.
Not a great comparison, I'll admit. Just the first S9 AP2 melee unit I could think of. As for the comparison itself, I didn't mean against one another but against other targets. 2.5 Cents will do more melee damage and will stand up to small arms better than a carnifex in melee...sadly.
The D3 HoW attacks aren't anything to write home about, since it's only +1 attack on average over a non-carnifex MC. The real issue has been outlined above; not enough attacks to affect hordes, no AP to affect elite troops and it's overkill against vehicles when you already have 4 S9+ attacks.
As for avoiding melee, well, at least the centurions have transports....the carnifexes are always walking. If you spring for adrenal glands, you driving the prices up even more.
Carnage43 wrote: Deathstar/tough unit? 38+ points per T6 wound is not very good on T6 3+ save with no invul. A riptide is 40 points per wound, but gets a 2+/5++, Canotpyk Spiders are 25 for T6 3+, a base dreadknight is 32.5 for 2+/5++. Carnifexes are pretty much the least survivable monstrous creatures in the game point for point.
By throwing on Shrouded or FNP onto one them, the whole unit benefits. This can help squeeze the most from Venomthropes or Catalyst. It's also pretty easy to pull off wound allocation shenanigans by shuffling position, letting them stay around longer.
The Riptides and Dreadknight comparisons perplex me, as they're not in the Tyranid codex and therefore aren't an alternative option to Carnifexes. Trygons and T-fexes would have been a better comparison, but of course the number of points per wound isn't the only factor in picking a unit or you'd be telling us to spam Mawlocs.
The dread/riptide/spyder comparison is to show how poorly the tyranid codex in general and carnifexes in particular, is balanced externally against other books. You are correct about the points per wound though, again it's just to illustrate just how expensive and fragile they are in the grander scheme. We both know that venomthropes are going to eat dirt before anyone fires anything significant at the carnifexes, and while catalyst on the unit is actually pretty awesome, it still won't overcome the gap that other book's MCs have in terms of survivability....and if we are getting into third party psyker buffs in a comparison....well, god help the carnifexes in that case.
Carnage43 wrote: Anti-air? Leave that to your winged tyrants and/or crone
What if I don't want to buy a Crone, and only own one Flyrant? Relying on FMCs generally means building a list around several of them for redundancy, and results in a boring mono-build style a la the old Tervigon list. Plus I bet there's more of us out there with multiple Fexes than multiple Crones.
Of course. A lot of us have carnifex heavy armies from 4th edition, and Crones are the new kids on the block. As for mono-builds....well, the codex will be boiled down eventually, and it's not like it's brimming over with top notch competitive choices.
It's all very well saying you want specialised units to perfectly counter everything that can be thrown at you, but in reality that's hardly practical. Opponents do something unexpected, crucial dice rolls go the wrong way, key units can get caught out of place or lost at a bad time, and plans unravel. Sometimes it is better to have a few generalist units that can switch role when needed. Carnifexes can fill a gap when your Crone gets Quad-gunned to death on arrival, or your Flyrant fails that key grounding test. I don't get how you can say a unit is 'awful' just because it isn't the mathematically optimal choice for a specific situation.
A Carnifex isn't perfect for most roles, but it's good at a lot of them. And in the codex that brought us the Pyrovore, Genestealers and Rippers, I think that's great.
This is a personal thing more than anything. I've played marines even longer than Nids, and I have grown to DETEST "flexible" units. In GW speak, that basically means that they are bad at everything for their points, but are never completely helpless. It's a choice to "mitigate bad situations" when you should be aiming to "maximize optimal situations". I'd rather build an army of optimal specialists and let my skill dictate how well I do, than use more flexible units in fear of being out played/maneuvered. Like I said, mostly a personal philosophy thing.
Thanks for the well written response. It's a joy to argue against well formed arguments.
Carnage43 wrote: So your response is "Nuh uh, IT'S GOOD!" with nothing to back that up. No math, no comparisons, not even a silly anecdote of "Well it killed 75 space marines last game for me!". Nothing? Well, I'm certainly convinced.....<cough>
As far as the tyranid codex goes, I'd rate the dakka dex as poor to mediocre. In the grander scheme of things, it's laughably bad.
No.. It really isn't.
You wan't an argument refer to the other guy's response to your post, I agree with his assertions in all of that.
Im a long time marine player but I picked up this book and am going to start a new nids army with it. Instead of vitriol and rehashing old arguments, can we divert this topic to maybe talking about what is good in the book? I would like to see peoples opinions of how to use the new codex as it is in a positive light and not bash the book incessantly for how bad it is perceived.
Well you need to play in a set up that makes it possible for synaps to survive . This means no escalation ,the stronghold codex is tricky , because on one hand you can get huge forts to hide your venomothrops , but on the other hand there are D shoting weapons in it . You shouldn't be playing against armies that can ignore cover and which can alfa strike without D weapons . If a nid player loses venoms or half his synaps turn 1 , playing stops making sense .
A lot of the good options are good in a void , but not so good when the whole army is seen as one force. The dakka tyrants are kill wise the best tyrants , but they die much faster then the foot slogging ones . And working synaps is more important then a being a bit more shoty , because if your opponent loses from you fielding one or two FMCts , then it probably doesn't matter what kind of a nid army your playing.
The back field section is pre made . Biovores got , I would say better, some will say different , but never bad. There are no synaps units other then the tervigon to baby sit them . Puting a tyrant or zoanthrops would be a waste of points, warriors die too fast and taking a prime to do it is a lot of points , low resiliance and burning and HQ slot. No idea why GW didn't make primes 4 per HQ slot like they did with heralds .
With lack of pods and in the age where almost every army can use anti scout or anti infiltrationt tech , the "tactics" are more or less a zerg rush . Two turns of moving and lets hope there is enough of me left to kill the opposing army. turn 1-2 are the most important , because nids are very glas type of army . If the synaps units get killed in those turns the whole army can fall over . I think the minimum of synaps units for a 1500 army is around 4-5 and imo most of the time it is going to be a walking tyrant +bodyguards, zoanthrops ,prime in a unit of zerglings , tervigon for the back section and a unit of warriors , which may die fast . Although when opposing army can kills 2-3 synaps per turn it probably doesn't matter , if they are taken or not and if the opposing army can't do it , then they are at worse shoting magnet with synaps.
After a couple of triies.... Flyrants are buffed, maybe even beyond the loss of biomancy. The extra BS makes a real difference, last night both my flyrants got Warp Blast, and splattered the Warlord second turn.
Last night we faced a good HH Mechanicus list, lots of Toughness 7. Mawloc, proxied two exocries, Crone and a Harpy. THe Crone is great, harpy mediiocre... but the old nid tactics of getting in the enemy's face and dominating the space work even better with more flyers. We scraped it 12 kill points to 10, and I doubt we would have done better with our old list. If we can run Carnifexes as troops wiht the upcoming dataslate, we'll be tougher than before.
A tough list, according to others who've faced, used by one of the group's most experienced players.
They were tough opponents, and keeping everything in synapse was a real plate-spinning exercise. But very enjoyable. If we get to use carnifexes as troops, we reckon we might end up in a better place.
Of course I understand that some people, on the basis of looking at entries, claim the army is broken and uncompetitive, and will dismiss the odd game reports as unrepresntative. That's kinda how we felt once we lost all our pods. But we're feeling cautiously optimistic, and are enjoying experimenting - and take more notice of others who are doing the same, like jy2 or NIB, than those who dismiss the codex on the basis of reading it, rather than playing it.
(None of that means we aren't annoyed about zoeys being nerfed, raveners still unusable, or the prospect of paying out for dataslates. It just means, shock horror, we are enjoying ourselves).
I probably worded this wrong . I don't know w30k armies are like , they are FW and FW is not played around here . So I don't have a scale to check what good w30k army is .
Makumba wrote: I probably worded this wrong . I don't know w30k armies are like , they are FW and FW is not played around here . So I don't have a scale to check what good w30k army is .
My bad. They look amazing and they are nearly all toughness 7. We'll try and get a copy of the list and post it. It's not our oppo's tourney list. We won, on balance, prioritising his threats and bringing them down one by one, whereas he found it harder to prioritise because four flyers, plus gargoyles and mawloc, were onto him by turn 2.
We made a few errors, we left his tanks, which turned out to be v powerful, with preferred enemy, and we lost both flyrants, the crone, the harpy, 19 gargoyles, one exocrine, one biovore, 30 out of 45 gaunts and, on the last turn, the mawloc (which smashed a couple of his units to death), but we controlled or challenged all the objectives. A classic bug-hunt with piles of bodies.
But it was a great battle, wouldn't have minded if we lost because the opponents were painted beautifully... didn't know who'd won until we did the maths at the end. Should've photographed it, but our crones are only primed so didn't bother.
HG have better range, ignore cover and don't need line of sight. The ignore cover alone is enough to tip the scales. You are also 6 wounds vs 4 (although 3+ vs 4+ save....4+ is WAY worse) but that's somewhat needless as the HG shouldn't even be taking any fire since they don't need LOS. Instant death against T4 is gravy. Again, I think this is a largely silly argument, and you know it too. I'll admit it's probably closer than I'd like to admit, and the carnifexes' other advantages will tip the scales in it's favor in a TAC environment.
Just because I'm curious;
AV10; Carni (4HP, 0.50 destroyed), HG (2.16HP, 0.33 destroyed) Clear carni win here, but both are likely to blow up a 3HP vehicle in 1 volley, and almost certain to kill a 2HP. In a case of cover, the carni still has the edge.
AV11 Carni (2.75HP, 0.25 destroyed), HG (1.75hp, 0.25 destroyed) Clear carni win here, it's toasting a rhino fairly solidly, where the HG are only doing 2/3 damage. In a case of 5+ cover they are pretty much dead even though.
AV12 Carni (1.5HP, 0 destroyed), HG (1.33HP, 0.17 destroyed) Dead even, maybe with a minor edge to Hive Guard because of the damage on the vehicle chart. In a case of cover the HG have the clear edge.
AV13+ HG obviously win.
Your numbers checkout. The only issue I see is with the carnifexes in units....they are super overkill against AV10 and AV11, at least multiple HG units have pseudo split fire. Looks like the BS3 nerf on HG hurt more than I thought really. Going to have to reconsider anti-tank I think.
Yeah BS3 really put me off Hive Guard this time around. I'd probably still be keen on them if it was easier to stick PE on them, but now the only option to do that is the Swarmlord, which is silly.
Not a great comparison, I'll admit. Just the first S9 AP2 melee unit I could think of. As for the comparison itself, I didn't mean against one another but against other targets. 2.5 Cents will do more melee damage and will stand up to small arms better than a carnifex in melee...sadly.
The D3 HoW attacks aren't anything to write home about, since it's only +1 attack on average over a non-carnifex MC. The real issue has been outlined above; not enough attacks to affect hordes, no AP to affect elite troops and it's overkill against vehicles when you already have 4 S9+ attacks.
Free HoW attacks are a big deal when it comes to vehicles, and really tip the scales against AV13/14. They make up for the loss of To Hit re-rolls and can easily get that crucial extra HP down that kills the vehicle rather than having it drive away the next turn. Being able to double-out Nobz and other characters with automatic hits is also a nice benefit, even if no AP means you can't guaruntee it. Although to be honest, I think that's a BRB issue, and high-strength HoW attacks should be getting an AP value.
This is a personal thing more than anything. I've played marines even longer than Nids, and I have grown to DETEST "flexible" units. In GW speak, that basically means that they are bad at everything for their points, but are never completely helpless. It's a choice to "mitigate bad situations" when you should be aiming to "maximize optimal situations". I'd rather build an army of optimal specialists and let my skill dictate how well I do, than use more flexible units in fear of being out played/maneuvered. Like I said, mostly a personal philosophy thing.
Yeah I think it's more personal preference. In contrast, I tend to dislike hyper-optimised net lists (such as 3x Tervigon 3x10 Termagant in the old codex, or 2x Flyrant 3x Crone now), as I find them boring and they often require buying a bunch more stuff to win. After this half-assed codex the last thing I want to do is reward GW by dropping nearly £150 on 3 Crones. I'd rather make the best of it with what I have.
Carnage43 wrote: Thanks for the well written response. It's a joy to argue against well formed arguments.
Indeed. You're right in that Fexes aren't an optimal solution for anything really, but I wanted to address the comment saying that they're "awful". For internal balance purposes with the rest of this codex, I think you could do far worse.
Martel732 wrote: Plain marines haven't outclassed too many lists in quite a while. I'm not so sure the Nids stand up to the Tau, but maybe.
Played 2 games against Tau last night, won both. And one of them was with my Mawloc mishapping and dying. Ended the game with 3 Warriors, 3 Hive Guard, my Flyrant, my Tyrannofex, 2 Hormagaunts, and 1.5 groups of 10 Termagants left (The heroes that held the Relic turn 5!) The use of cover and so many T6 multiwound monsters was really the winner here. That and I got some really good rolls for the new run mechanicac on the Hormagaunts pressuring him to focus them down before he ripped his entire backfield apart. The Flyrant also rolled the psyker power that decreased D3 WS and D3 BS, which GREATLY helped control the Riptide... He was nearly useless the entire game. The Flyrant whiped out Markerlight support and the rest was just delaying the inevitable.
Also, I love Hiveguard. Depending on your terrain they can really stir up gak with those impaler cannons. Had my Mawloc not killed itself, it would've been extremely one sided.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seriously this Codex does not suck. I fricken love it. I've wanted to play Nids for so long and decided to wait for the new Dex and bought a 2000 point used army from a local player and it's now certainly going to be my main.
Now keep in mind I did win those games yes, whatever... but i'm also a for fun player, I could've lost those games and still loved the new Nids. Too me the new synapse is actually alot of fun, gives you something to think about! I couldn't be happier with my purchase
Tyranids can really hit Tau where they dont like to get hit: Up close ansd personal and with no way to stop it. I am tyhinking they will definitely give Tau and Mechdar some serious headaches.
The Flyrant also rolled the psyker power that decreased D3 WS and D3 BS, which GREATLY helped control the Riptide... He was nearly useless the entire game.
The as in one Riptide , a tau army with 1 riptide . Cool . What build was he using and how did you avoid your tyrant being hurt ?
The Flyrant also rolled the psyker power that decreased D3 WS and D3 BS, which GREATLY helped control the Riptide... He was nearly useless the entire game.
The as in one Riptide , a tau army with 1 riptide . Cool . What build was he using and how did you avoid your tyrant being hurt ?
It was only a 1000 point game. He had a lot of Fire Warriors, some suits, and some Path Finders, Devil Fish, and a Riptide. The Tyrant did lose 3 wounds but that was from ALOT of fire, allowing the Hormagaunts/Termagaunts/Hive Guard/Warriors to move into position pretty much unscathed. But with a Riptide hitting on 6's, it was a lot less scary and it got ignored once all the scoring units died. (I am the roommate by the way).
Had that Mawloc survived... it would've been ugly.
The Flyrant also rolled the psyker power that decreased D3 WS and D3 BS, which GREATLY helped control the Riptide... He was nearly useless the entire game.
The as in one Riptide , a tau army with 1 riptide . Cool . What build was he using and how did you avoid your tyrant being hurt ?
Exactly - your opponent must have been a newb or not using a 'good' list cuz the "veterans" in this thread have assured us that Tau will snipe all of your synapse dead on turn 1.
Actually, I see Eldar as being harder on synapse than Tau. I'm hoping big fat bugs might keep some pie plates at home. Eldar firepower is too perfect. Practically everything in the game is vulnerable to massed S6/7 from long range.
The Flyrant also rolled the psyker power that decreased D3 WS and D3 BS, which GREATLY helped control the Riptide... He was nearly useless the entire game.
The as in one Riptide , a tau army with 1 riptide . Cool . What build was he using and how did you avoid your tyrant being hurt ?
Exactly - your opponent must have been a newb or not using a 'good' list cuz the "veterans" in this thread have assured us that Tau will snipe all of your synapse dead on turn 1.
The Flyrant also rolled the psyker power that decreased D3 WS and D3 BS, which GREATLY helped control the Riptide... He was nearly useless the entire game.
The as in one Riptide , a tau army with 1 riptide . Cool . What build was he using and how did you avoid your tyrant being hurt ?
Exactly - your opponent must have been a newb or not using a 'good' list cuz the "veterans" in this thread have assured us that Tau will snipe all of your synapse dead on turn 1.
So you're evidence is non standard points where the game isn't close to balanced. Okay, I see you have a heavy stock of this:
So 2000-points against a spammy (3 riptide) Tau list isn't standard or even close to balanced? ...well according to this thread the Tau should have a MAJOR advantage and win on turn 1 - certainly not close to balanced I guess.
That Tau list looks to be about 60 points short.
Or maybe they didn't write the list right.
Since they gave the commander equipment to reroll BS2 markerdrones and let them ignore cover, just so he can't shoot his two guns which I have never seen used in that combination.
And the list already has the more expensive upgrades in it, so if the commander was just a drone commander then it makes the list almost 90 points short.
So 2000-points against a spammy (3 riptide) Tau list isn't standard or even close to balanced? ...well according to this thread the Tau should have a MAJOR advantage and win on turn 1 - certainly not close to balanced I guess.
Most people don't like 2k games because double Foc shenanigans and 1850 is the current competitive meta in tournaments.
So 2000-points against a spammy (3 riptide) Tau list isn't standard or even close to balanced? ...well according to this thread the Tau should have a MAJOR advantage and win on turn 1 - certainly not close to balanced I guess.
I have my reservations about that Tau list. One source of markers in the army, with a buff commander attached to it none the less.
So his entire plan for the three Riptides was to fire the cover ignoring pieplates at the exact same target each turn.
I would have expected at least one to be a HBC, but still.
So 2000-points against a spammy (3 riptide) Tau list isn't standard or even close to balanced? ...well according to this thread the Tau should have a MAJOR advantage and win on turn 1 - certainly not close to balanced I guess.
Most people don't like 2k games because double Foc shenanigans and 1850 is the current competitive meta in tournaments.
Regardless, it's silly to put too much stock in one game for sure - but it is funny that every 'Nid versus Tau' report so far has not gone at all how the naysayers claimed it would here.
Even writing from memory, and assuming it was a drone commander, I don't know where those extra 90 points go.
Assuming the Broadsides and firewarriors had team leaders, there is still 60 points unaccounted for.
There isn't anything that he could put on the Hammerhead that would help if he was just going to castle it.
So 2000-points against a spammy (3 riptide) Tau list isn't standard or even close to balanced? ...well according to this thread the Tau should have a MAJOR advantage and win on turn 1 - certainly not close to balanced I guess.
Most people don't like 2k games because double Foc shenanigans and 1850 is the current competitive meta in tournaments.
bodazoka wrote: Why do people COMPLETELY write off a 2000 point double force org game?
Because most people rarely play 2000 points, and when they do it's usually in a casual setting.
Most games around where I play tend be 1500, so a 2000 point game, while interesting to read, doesn't really represent what the codex can do, at least not for me.
bodazoka wrote: So tournament's allow TauDar, Farsight bomb, Screamer Star, Jet Seer Council, and 2++ but not double force org...
Yup. Welcome to the world where people are totally fine with everything you just mentioned, but the mere mention of Forge World brings forth cries of "Cheese!" and "WAAC". In the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium, there is only imbalance.
The Flyrant also rolled the psyker power that decreased D3 WS and D3 BS, which GREATLY helped control the Riptide... He was nearly useless the entire game.
The as in one Riptide , a tau army with 1 riptide . Cool . What build was he using and how did you avoid your tyrant being hurt ?
Exactly - your opponent must have been a newb or not using a 'good' list cuz the "veterans" in this thread have assured us that Tau will snipe all of your synapse dead on turn 1.
double FoC and he isn't using ally or at least coteaz and has 1 unit of marker lights which are drones . Interesting army . I have never seen marker drones used . Do they have some sort of combat squad rules , so they can split or some join other units ?
bodazoka wrote: So tournament's allow TauDar, Farsight bomb, Screamer Star, Jet Seer Council, and 2++ but not double force org...
Yup. Welcome to the world where people are totally fine with everything you just mentioned, but the mere mention of Forge World brings forth cries of "Cheese!" and "WAAC". In the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium, there is only imbalance.
Indeed, I dont get eh double standards, totally oblivious double standards as well. Why not limit allies if you are limiting force orgs?
bodazoka wrote: Why do people COMPLETELY write off a 2000 point double force org game?
Because most people rarely play 2000 points, and when they do it's usually in a casual setting.
Most games around where I play tend be 1500, so a 2000 point game, while interesting to read, doesn't really represent what the codex can do, at least not for me.
I would rather play against weaker tier 2-3 armies and live with the fact that I won't beat taudar with or without dual foc , then play dual foc grav marines or dual foc chaos .
fartherthanfar wrote: Am I the only one that wouldve wanted the Swarmlord to get +1 on steal the initiative roll?
Feel to me like that would represent well his ability to out-think his opponent.
right now i find him a little sub-par
Yeah he's basically slightly worse than in 5th ed, and in 5th ed he was considered grossly overpriced... still, he seems like he'd be half-decent, if only for buffing and being a synaptic lynchpin. Way too damn expensive though, I'd rather have 2 Primes for his cost.
No it's not that the nid dex is bad or good it's that when you boil it all down there's nothing that really stands out. It lacks a wow factor unit.....which probably means it's balanced.
That being said I play games with DFO, allies, stronghold assault, FW and escalations all legal and I haven't seen many problems. Really all I do is keep bad counts as crap out of it. Hard to get steamrolled by a phantom titan if I tell the guy who made one out of toilet papers rolls to frak off and get a real one or at least convert one worthy of the name.
Plumbumbarum wrote: Minor gripe for most I guess but big for me is that they replaced the great picture of Hive Tyrant strangling some ork with the atrocious new one.
Also is anyone else thinking the artwork looks worse in color, at least the way GW did it?
I personally love the "new" Harpy art that is a really bad photoshop of the old picture with color!
Savageconvoy wrote: Even writing from memory, and assuming it was a drone commander, I don't know where those extra 90 points go.
Assuming the Broadsides and firewarriors had team leaders, there is still 60 points unaccounted for.
There isn't anything that he could put on the Hammerhead that would help if he was just going to castle it.
I just looked up the game. Buffmander (with no pure tide chip) with marker drones. Railgun broadsides with velocity trackers and drones (109pts each!), 105pts wasted on stim injectors, playing under points and gigantic LOS blocking terrain in non standard points. Beating up on Noobs doesn't count as evidence. Not to mention the illegal play of outflanking with the alpha warrior. The kroot moving up, knowing there is 13 stealers, and target the tyrannofex? Are you dumb? They aren't even sniper kroot. The riptides not moving away from the stealers is just mind boggling.
The fact all these terrible choices happened and the Tau still won. So what battle report are these Nid players reading?
bodazoka wrote: So tournament's allow TauDar, Farsight bomb, Screamer Star, Jet Seer Council, and 2++ but not double force org...
What double force org shenanigans could be that bad compared to the above?
1999 + 1 Is a left over from 6th dropping before a large tournament which didn't have time to adjust...
Ovesastar and 3 to 6 skyrays would be where I start. Nids wouldn't have a hope of winning short of making the table look like castle fething grey skull.
Ovesastar and 3 to 6 skyrays would be where I start. Nids wouldn't have a hope of winning short of making the table look like castle fething grey skull.
Tau already can get an Ovesastar and 4 Skyrays in a single FOC, double FOC doesn't change anything.
Ovesastar and 3 to 6 skyrays would be where I start. Nids wouldn't have a hope of winning short of making the table look like castle fething grey skull.
Tau already can get an Ovesastar and 4 Skyrays in a single FOC, double FOC doesn't change anything.
Granted, but it just gives you room for more. DFOC really should have been a 3000pt or higher thing. Like Escalation or the other expansions it puts the game into the exhibition side show category. Doesn't count for gak.
Plus the game is ideally played at 1500 to 2000 SFOC, some armies are incredibly unbalanced at different point values, Orks for example are disgusting until they get over 2000pts and cant fit anything else in that's effective, where as guard suck in small games and get disgusting once at 2000pts+. The game has its problems, adding to it will just compound the issues. However, If 40k tournaments got ETC style, I can definitely see nids getting a handicap.
Don't know if trolling.
