I would return my dex had I bought one since it sold out at my GW at my FLGS, however I just checked back in yesterday at my FLGS, to pick up some reaper models for count as slaanesh daemon princes, only to find that almost all the books were back in stock (there was I think 1 book missing) when I asked if they already restocked that fast he reponded quickly with "no they all got returned and I'm not suprised" despite the fact that on saturday they won a RTT at that same FLGS (mainly due to bad matchups though since he went up against GK/IG with relatively no AA, ork BW spam with sally allies, again almost no AA in that list, and the final matchup was GK with only one SR and a psyfleman dread, I'm not sure how he won against the GK player but I could see how he did it and took 1st despite not really facing any hardcore competitive lists like tau/eldar/taudar/eldau)
I spent the weekend reading the dex, i really don't get the design philosophy behind it.
Tyranids are meant to be the ultimate close combat army, the changes made in 6th edition of the game favour shooting over CC, and Nids suffered for this.
So why does this codex nerf CC so much. Some units lost stats, others lost abilities, some units have disapeared.
To make up for this we have new units which are "meh" and some units got points drops, but options became more expensive.
It all looks like a push to get everyone to field ever larger units of basic troops, meaning buying more models, which for some reason are direct order only now.
I can't help but think a marketing manager wrote the book.
Luckily i read a friends copy of the codex, so I won't waste my money buying it, and my small Nids force will remain in a display cabinet, It's not worth spending the couple of hundred pounds needed to flesh it out into a usable force.
PrinceRaven wrote: Just noticed something today; Hive Guard, a unit described as a "gun-beast", has a better weapon skill than ballistic skill. This baffles me.
This is evolution. It appears that some units improve, some gain factors (Ymgarl) from other units.
I don't think your quote matches your text. Either that, or you have a worse than average understanding of the word "Evolution" (Hint, there is no selective pressures forcing a cheetah to slow down).
Flyrants own daemon princes and even most of the Greater Daemons. They fly up to them and put them in shadows reach, then hit them with psychic scream so they test on leadership 6 or hit them with a str 10 warp lance to instant kill them. You still have 12 str 6 shots to get into them all for a Flyrant who costs 70-120pts less than the Daemon it is attacking.
Don't forget about the effects of psychic scream on lesser daemons. Daemons being leadership 7 base, then reduced to 4 by shadows in the warp, and you're looking at causing an average of 5 wounds per unit caught in your bubble, and their only answer is a 5+ invul save.
Statistically, it doesn't kill it on average, but what it does do is take off most of it's wounds, and forces a grounding test. If it fails that test, it's almost certainly dead either from the fall, or from the fact that it's a T5 4+ critter sitting on the ground with probably 1 wound at that point...meaning it's fodder for pretty much anything in range.
Worried about a quad gun? I have an answer for you: Lictors. Deep strike them with no scaatter right behind the ADL, flesh hook the crew manning the gun itself (if not outright destroy the thing, I forget the exact stats on the flesh hooks, I think they're S6 Ap- on lictors?), you'll probably lose the lictors to whatever else is back there, but it knocks the Quad Gun out long enough for your Harpy or Crone or whathave you to book it up the field and vector strike it out of existence. For added fun, also take deathleaper. Alternatively, take a Mawloc. Even better, take a Mawloc AND lictors, infiltrate the Lictors up front, and get them in position by turn 2 to allow the mawloc to come up underneath the quad gun. With Swarmlord in the mix you're almost guaranteed to pull it off.
My thoughts about the book, middle of the road, I think they are more competitive than before, they definitely have some good counters for Taudar (come on Shadows in the Warp screws over any psychic power shenanigans your opponent might try to pull, plus access to poison and certain psychic powers can really hurt as well) and I think they are balanced against all comers, but they definitely lack a blatant "I win" like certain other books have (although nine carnifexes... *shudders*), and the army is a lot more reliant on synergy and requires a bit of strategic play (see my above example of using lictors and/or mawlocs to disrupt your opponent and open up holes to allow the rest of your army to overrun their line).
My biggest complaint about the book is that its uninspired, aside from removing two of my favorite units (Parasite and Ymgarl stealers), the new things added in are rather lackluster, as in I see what they were attempting to do with the different units they introduced, but for the most part the execution seems lazy and boring, like the Haruspex could be great... if it wasn't a crappy model with WS3 and only 3 or 4 attacks. The Crone could be great, if it wasn't so fragile or its drool cannon was a little bit better (come on, no Torrent??!?). Really the only new thing that shines I think is the Exocrine. Some of the point cuts I think weren't quite steep enough (I think warriors/shrikes could have been a bit cheaper, as well as adrenal glands/toxin sacs for anything except monstrous creatures), and they seem to have missed some opportunities for cool special rules (would it really be too much to ask for deathleaper to have the old ymgarl ability to assault on the turn it appears or something?)
SYK
evolution= random mutation massed on from generation to generation.
E.g: A fish being orange instead of silver, and procreating to create a new sub-species of the original fish species.
Adaptation= changes made to a creature's appearance or mental trait that helps it survive in an otherwise hostile environment or situation
E.g: a desert spider living under ground to avoid the heat, or a lizard developing larger claws to grab larger prey as their is a shortage in smaller.
/ SCIENCE!
A GumyBear wrote: I would return my dex had I bought one since it sold out at my GW at my FLGS, however I just checked back in yesterday at my FLGS, to pick up some reaper models for count as slaanesh daemon princes, only to find that almost all the books were back in stock (there was I think 1 book missing) when I asked if they already restocked that fast he reponded quickly with "no they all got returned and I'm not suprised" despite the fact that on saturday they won a RTT at that same FLGS
That is the only language, a GW manager might understand, before he again overrules the design team.
Flyrants own daemon princes and even most of the Greater Daemons. They fly up to them and put them in shadows reach, then hit them with psychic scream so they test on leadership 6 or hit them with a str 10 warp lance to instant kill them. You still have 12 str 6 shots to get into them all for a Flyrant who costs 70-120pts less than the Daemon it is attacking.
Don't forget about the effects of psychic scream on lesser daemons. Daemons being leadership 7 base, then reduced to 4 by shadows in the warp, and you're looking at causing an average of 5 wounds per unit caught in your bubble, and their only answer is a 5+ invul save.
Statistically, it doesn't kill it on average, but what it does do is take off most of it's wounds, and forces a grounding test. If it fails that test, it's almost certainly dead either from the fall, or from the fact that it's a T5 4+ critter sitting on the ground with probably 1 wound at that point...meaning it's fodder for pretty much anything in range.
Worried about a quad gun? I have an answer for you: Lictors. Deep strike them with no scaatter right behind the ADL, flesh hook the crew manning the gun itself (if not outright destroy the thing, I forget the exact stats on the flesh hooks, I think they're S6 Ap- on lictors?), you'll probably lose the lictors to whatever else is back there, but it knocks the Quad Gun out long enough for your Harpy or Crone or whathave you to book it up the field and vector strike it out of existence. For added fun, also take deathleaper. Alternatively, take a Mawloc. Even better, take a Mawloc AND lictors, infiltrate the Lictors up front, and get them in position by turn 2 to allow the mawloc to come up underneath the quad gun. With Swarmlord in the mix you're almost guaranteed to pull it off.
My thoughts about the book, middle of the road, I think they are more competitive than before, they definitely have some good counters for Taudar (come on Shadows in the Warp screws over any psychic power shenanigans your opponent might try to pull, plus access to poison and certain psychic powers can really hurt as well) and I think they are balanced against all comers, but they definitely lack a blatant "I win" like certain other books have (although nine carnifexes... *shudders*), and the army is a lot more reliant on synergy and requires a bit of strategic play (see my above example of using lictors and/or mawlocs to disrupt your opponent and open up holes to allow the rest of your army to overrun their line).
My biggest complaint about the book is that its uninspired, aside from removing two of my favorite units (Parasite and Ymgarl stealers), the new things added in are rather lackluster, as in I see what they were attempting to do with the different units they introduced, but for the most part the execution seems lazy and boring, like the Haruspex could be great... if it wasn't a crappy model with WS3 and only 3 or 4 attacks. The Crone could be great, if it wasn't so fragile or its drool cannon was a little bit better (come on, no Torrent??!?). Really the only new thing that shines I think is the Exocrine. Some of the point cuts I think weren't quite steep enough (I think warriors/shrikes could have been a bit cheaper, as well as adrenal glands/toxin sacs for anything except monstrous creatures), and they seem to have missed some opportunities for cool special rules (would it really be too much to ask for deathleaper to have the old ymgarl ability to assault on the turn it appears or something?)
my Slaanesh Daemon Princes own flyrants. Their lack of invul, lower initiative, etc always loses... Not to mention it's even worse for them now give we actually STILL have access to biomancy. A lot of crack has been smoked prior to writing this. Not to mention shadows doesn't effect tzeentch daemons as they always have a static +3 to their leadership.
my Slaanesh Daemon Princes own flyrants. Their lack of invul, lower initiative, etc always loses... Not to mention it's even worse for them now give we actually STILL have access to biomancy. A lot of crack has been smoked prior to writing this. Not to mention shadows doesn't effect tzeentch daemons as they always have a static +3 to their leadership.
While I dont disagree that DPs will eat Flyrants, what is giving your Daemons the +3 ??
my Slaanesh Daemon Princes own flyrants. Their lack of invul, lower initiative, etc always loses... Not to mention it's even worse for them now give we actually STILL have access to biomancy. A lot of crack has been smoked prior to writing this. Not to mention shadows doesn't effect tzeentch daemons as they always have a static +3 to their leadership.
While I dont disagree that DPs will eat Flyrants, what is giving your Daemons the +3 ??
my Slaanesh Daemon Princes own flyrants. Their lack of invul, lower initiative, etc always loses... Not to mention it's even worse for them now give we actually STILL have access to biomancy. A lot of crack has been smoked prior to writing this. Not to mention shadows doesn't effect tzeentch daemons as they always have a static +3 to their leadership.
While I dont disagree that DPs will eat Flyrants, what is giving your Daemons the +3 ??
Daemons of tzeentch get plus 3 to psy tests
But only to psychic tests. They will still suffer -3 to their instability tests.
i hate reading this as a good friend of mine plays nids. And it makes me worried about the future ork codex.. i want my greenskins to run-assault all over the battlefield again like they did in 5th, not run and get shot to grotpieces..
I had expected a lot more from the first close combat centric codex in 6th. There is no delivery mechanism for close combat troops/short range shooty units except target saturation, cover and some risky deep strike options. The drop pod removal without any compensation is hard to understand. The Hive fleets could have been used to promote different builds through different synapse buffs much like SM chapter tactics. The return of the mutable genus and mutations from third edition was another thing I was hoping for.
Instead we end up with an uninspired copy paste from 5th edition with four/two new units of which only the Exocrine seem to offer new ability the army lacked, some random point changes and a new physic table. All of which could have been made by an intern in a single afternoon.
I'm tempted to return the codex to the store, as I won't buy any of the new units and I can pretty much use my 5th edition codex with a few errata pages instead.
Might be a bit controversial, but I'm actually quite happy with how underwhelming the new book is.
After Tau and Eldar books which are absolutely absurd and game breaking in terms of power (good bye, every faction that relied on cover to survive!), it's nice to have one that's potentially bearable to play against, and doesn't melt half your army within 2 shooting phases.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Might be a bit controversial, but I'm actually quite happy with how underwhelming the new book is.
After Tau and Eldar books which are absolutely absurd and game breaking in terms of power (good bye, every faction that relied on cover to survive!), it's nice to have one that's potentially bearable to play against, and doesn't melt half your army within 2 shooting phases.
And yet, Tau and Eldar are balanced very well against each other.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Might be a bit controversial, but I'm actually quite happy with how underwhelming the new book is.
After Tau and Eldar books which are absolutely absurd and game breaking in terms of power (good bye, every faction that relied on cover to survive!), it's nice to have one that's potentially bearable to play against, and doesn't melt half your army within 2 shooting phases.
And yet, Tau and Eldar are balanced very well against each other.
It is odd. Given the aroma of 2nd Edition I get playing 6th I was suspecting that nids would get a boost to their CC abilites, along with things like disruption tables.
Nids take lots of shooting damage but are powerful in assault such that if we can get broods into combat we have a good chance of winning or crippling. I'm talking about Stealers, Warriors, Raveners, MCs, etc. I'm not saying three hormies should be taking down a GK Paladin squad.
That broods might attack each other due to failed IB tests seems unwarranted compared to the pros and cons of ATsKNF/chapter tactics.
The nerfs piled onto the Tervigon are unwarranted. Three Troops MCs for a pittance in 'gaunt' tax was a bit much but capping it at 0-1 and upping the unlocking brood to 30 would have set things straight. it was also one of the only models in the fifth ed codex that had actual, functioning synergy. Which has been completely removed and replaced with the new improved Field of Death.
The biggest thing at the moment is the HTH capabilites of the Nids. I get the sense that GW really didn't want them overshadowing other armies.
For example, we now have to play by the same rules as everybody else with regard to stacking weapons. I believe this was a great rule, easy to understand and gave Nids a little more punch in CC. However, GW clearly didn't think this wasn't fair. So Nids are forced to play by the rules.
Except we aren't allowed to play by the rules - we have to have two sets of CC weapons to gain a bonus attack rather than just the one pair everybody else needs. Given the number of attacks thrown out by some Ork, Marine and Daemon units I just don't understand this.
Then add on that we can't take allies. Our transport options were deleted wholesale. We can't use the BRB psychic disciplines.
It also seems a tad arbitrary that Carnifexes and Haruspexes are WS3. At WS5 these guys would be viable as assault units against infantry as well as vehicles.
Lastly, there is an odd mix about things they fixed (Spore Mines not giving the enemy anything for dying, for example) but the Pyrovore remains doggedly pointless. The Deathspitter remains a slightly buffed Devourer rather than the excellent weapon it was until Cruddace completely changed it.
The Crone is an odd duck... I just dont' see why I would take it over the Harpy - which can drop bombs, engage targets at much safer ranges with better weapons, assist in assault.
Warriors still mope around with T4 - which oddly makes them more likely to die in the kind of casual games they are likely to appear in!
In an edition where shooting armies have received buffs to shooting I was hoping that Nids - who let us remember take casualites by the fistful to shooting - would get a little boost. I get the impression that GW has oversold itself on the value of quantity over quality.
my Slaanesh Daemon Princes own flyrants. Their lack of invul, lower initiative, etc always loses... Not to mention it's even worse for them now give we actually STILL have access to biomancy. A lot of crack has been smoked prior to writing this. Not to mention shadows doesn't effect tzeentch daemons as they always have a static +3 to their leadership.
While I dont disagree that DPs will eat Flyrants, what is giving your Daemons the +3 ??
Daemons of tzeentch get plus 3 to psy tests
But only to psychic tests. They will still suffer -3 to their instability tests.
And they're technically still at -3 to their psychic tests, trying to make your psychic tests at ld 7 ain't fun, trust me.
The Crone is an odd duck... I just dont' see why I would take it over the Harpy - which can drop bombs, engage targets at much safer ranges with better weapons, assist in assault.
You take the Crone for its anti-vehicle and anti-flyer capabilities, something that the Harpy cant (in my opinion) do quite as well.
The Crone is an odd duck... I just dont' see why I would take it over the Harpy - which can drop bombs, engage targets at much safer ranges with better weapons, assist in assault.
Well, the Crone does come with S8 vector strike and 4 haywire missiles, so it's slightly better against flyers.
I for one was hoping to see the living ammunition and that variable weapon strength for the bio-weapons return. I thought those were some pretty cool rules back in fourth. But nope, same as everyone else :/
For a faction that's meant to be an alien threat from another galaxy, they seem to be just like everyone else. Still, at least they didn't mess up the meta as much as marker lights and Serpents did. They just didn't change it :/
I managed to get a refund when I returned my codex at GW, the book didn't even last a day with me and I'm actually pretty upset about it, I'm being playing Nids now for the last 3 generations and I've loved them, sure the last 'dex had it's problems but we had builds that were strong so it wasn't that bad, but this dex? I'll just get on my hands and knees for GW and beg for a FAQ asap, will that make you happy!
I think when playing Tau, spore barrage and Biovores could go an extremly long way, which I'm actually quite interested in trying out
Oh the best/worst bit, when returning the 'dex, the poor guy at GW said I wasn't the first returning it today and that he too is upset with how much of a rush job it seems which made me feel guilty, I asure you he wasn't going for the sympathy card with puppy eyes either, and ended up buying the carnifex box cause I didn't in the morning and wish I did when I left, curse you GW!
The Crone is an odd duck... I just dont' see why I would take it over the Harpy - which can drop bombs, engage targets at much safer ranges with better weapons, assist in assault.
Well, the Crone does come with S8 vector strike and 4 haywire missiles, so it's slightly better against flyers.
Which it can only fire 2 weapons a turn and only moves 24" guaranteeing a turn of shooting at it. Or losing half its wounds to anyone with a quad gun simply by showing up. A storm talon with skyhammer missiles has a good chance of one shotting it. Good thing there isn't a formation that lets you take 6.
The Crone is an odd duck... I just dont' see why I would take it over the Harpy - which can drop bombs, engage targets at much safer ranges with better weapons, assist in assault.
Well, the Crone does come with S8 vector strike and 4 haywire missiles, so it's slightly better against flyers.
Which it can only fire 2 weapons a turn and only moves 24" guaranteeing a turn of shooting at it. Or losing half its wounds to anyone with a quad gun simply by showing up. A storm talon with skyhammer missiles has a good chance of one shotting it. Good thing there isn't a formation that lets you take 6.
Yeah...they should have really made everything be taken in squads. Like, 1-3 Haruspex in a squad, 1-3 Exocrine, ect.
If IG can do it with tanks, nids can do it with MC. I mean, they already did it for carnies, why not them?
Likan Wolfsheim wrote: I picked up the new book for my brother today and we looked through the book and even did some toying around with the lists. It's still too early to give a final verdict, but my tentative judgement is this: The book has horrid internal balance, but is going to have a couple solid builds. All in all I think it might suffer from the Codex: Helldrake problem of having a ton of crap, but a few spammable gems. Again, this is all first-look speculation, but I think that the Tyranids might be able to stand up to Eldar with some effort. Tau, however, I think will likely have an easy time dealing with the bugs. Grav Gun biker spam will also be nasty against 'nids.
Here are a few quick thoughts on the new stuff (I'm not going to cover everything here, just a few things):
HQ -Dakka Flyrants got a points reduction, clocking in at 230pts total for the critter and two brainleech devourers. They also got BS4 which will do wonders for all that shooting. However they (and all other psykers) lose access to the BRB powers, which is no fun. The other HQs don't seem like much special, though I haven't read Deathleaper's stuff, admittedly. Tervigons got nerfed hard...it was to be expected.
Troops Termagants and Hormagaunts got dropped by a point. Scything Talons got hit with the nerfbat so I don't think Hormagants are worth it, but the point reduction helps when filling out your troops with Termagants. Warriors are still lacklustre, and Rippers...we don't talk about Rippers.
Elites This used to be one of the best spots, but now it's rather...meh. Hive Guard were dropped to BS3 and got a 5pt/model increase...because why not? Venomthropes have an interesting effect, but since it's applied to models, rather than units, you have to bunch your stuff around the 'thropes...which might not always be good. Zoanthropes got 10pts cheaper and seem just as good (other than being restricted to Tyranid powers only) as they used to be--might be good for some extra synapse. The Haruspex has an underwhelming statline for a purely CC monster (WS3/A3? Really?) and it's not worth the points...which is a pity 'cause I think it's a cute lil' guy.
Fast Attack Pretty much everything here seemed mediocre...but then I took a good look at the Hive Crone. The flying beastie gets 4 Haywire missiles, a S6/AP4 template, and S8 Vector Strike for a few points more than a bare LRBT. These guys could do a lot of damage to flyers/vehicles and, once they run out of big targets, can melt infantry if there's nothing better to do. Unfortunately they have a T5, W5 profile with a 4+ armour save...so they will go down fast. Still, I think multiple Crones in an army led by two Flyrants can create for a nasty situation in the skies. I *think* these guys are going to become auto-includes, but I also think that there's a good chance I'll be proven wrong.
Heavy Support Trygons/Primes got a slight points decrease and I think the Primes are a decent choice for a reasonably durable synapse in a codex where the synapse creatures seem underwhelming, though a few zoanthropes might do a better job. I heard bad things about the Exocrine in the rumour discussions but I think this beastie is actually really solid. 6 S7/AP2 attacks or a single S7/AP2 Large Blast is impressive and when the critter stands still he's BS4--the 6-attack mode in particular strikes me as something which could seriously ruin somebody's day. Unfortunately the range of the thing is only 24", and the weapon gets much less effective if he's BS3 from moving around.
And then there's the Carnifex. The beautiful Carnifex. They got a 40 point reduction. Now a 'fex loaded out with 2 brainleech devourers is only 150pts--I think that's fairly reasonable for 12 twin-linked S6 shots. And you can take them in broods if you really love dakka (though diminishing returns is likely sure to kick in...). I think these guys have the potential to be devastating and help for saturating the board with targets.
Just my general, first thoughts. We'll see how things go in practice.
Well, seems great that there are people who can find something good to say about this new codex.
Three most important things I see here:
- Exocrine looks pretty good. Never underestimate large blasts. Or S7. S7 is nice.
- Carnifexes seem pretty good to me. Not great, but good.
- Crone. S6AP4 Template. AP4. Ringing any bells? 4+ armor guys that need cover save, anyone?
Sorry if I missed something important, haven't played with 'Nids
GW codices these days are produced first and foremost to charge a lot, the current books along with those silly picture books called "supplements" are made without even a modicum of real effort. It's not a surprise the codex ended up being like this. They needed to rush it into sale to keep up the blitzkrieg of book releases as a new way to scam out money since finecast failed so badly.
A few points about the new shadow in the warp guys.
It only affects psykers,
so previous post about how usefull against deamons (for psychic scream) is forgeting to mention this.
it does on the other hand affect psychers on all leadership test (not just psychic test) which is awesome for psychic scream, the horror, fear tests, panic test and all sorts of other shenanigans. Overall its much better than before (especially when you see our new psychic powers.)
And even tzeetch deamon are annoyed by it since they lose their +3 on their psychic test and lose 3 on every other test they might be forced to take (psychic scream!!!!!!!!)
fartherthanfar wrote: A few points about the new shadow in the warp guys. It only affects psykers, so previous post about how usefull against deamons (for psychic scream) is forgeting to mention this. it does on the other hand affect psychers on all leadership test (not just psychic test) which is awesome for psychic scream, the horror, fear tests, panic test and all sorts of other shenanigans. Overall its much better than before (especially when you see our new psychic powers.) And even tzeetch deamon are annoyed by it since they lose their +3 on their psychic test and lose 3 on every other test they might be forced to take (psychic scream!!!!!!!!)
It also hoses GK, since all of their infantry have the brotherhood of psykers special rule, iirc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: here are my thought about the new book, ITS STILL GOOD!!!! I would dare to say its better than before, and thats all I was hoping for. I wouldnt have minded becoming the top dog like eldars and tau did but im fine where we stand.
if i break it down it goes like this:
we lost
Mycetic spores ( hate this one the most )
doom of malantai (with no spores im not surprised but it still really sucks)
Biomancy (really big blow but the new powers are very decent overall so I can deal with this (especially since we cast better than before))
Tervigon got hit with a nerf hammer (really hopping for a FAQ on this to help him a little bit cuz I have a hard time imagining a list with a tervigon now and i have 2 well painted Tervigon models)
Flyrants hive commander doesnt give +1 to reserve roll is 5pts less tho (losing mycetic spore makes this less annoying but still kinda sucks
Lance Warp blast is now ap2 (acceptable loss cuz now the swarmlord can cast it, doesnt quite break even but we got other stuff to make up )
hive guards cost 5 pts more and lost Bs going down to 3. their gun is more stable in its affect (fully ignores cover and can still shoot out of line of sight if out of synapse)
tyranid prime was never an option for me so I dont care for the point increase
on the other hand we GAINED:
regular Flyrant is 30 pts cheaper (30!!!!!) got Bs4 and can now cast 2 spells per turn (lost biomancy but still a clear buff on our best unit from last edition)
Swarmlord got Bs4 and warpblast access and psycker lvl3, lost a few tricks but not the important one (lost biomancy which is the big blow and cost 5 pts more, not great but tyrant guard are 10 pts less each so a swarmlord with 2 guards is 15pts less than before (i call that one breaking about even)
deathleaper is now cheaper and I would say a bit better in its ability, he's HQ which is slightly annoying but I can see some use for that
Venomthropes are freaking Awesome!!!!! will be a "must have". So much better than before it not even funny (such a win!!!!!)
lictors got an extra attack, fear, infiltrator, assault grenades and cost 15pts less (sooooo win!!! I always loved lictors and now I can actually use them without feeling like i am shooting myself in the foot to use them)
crones are good and harpys cost 10pts less and get +1w and +1 att (awesome, now we got ourselves a real airforce)
exocrines are great
trygons gost 10pts less
mawlocs are way better (only 140pts and better terror from the deep (ignores cover!!)
more than this but I got no more time to write
overall our guys are ALOT cheaper, got a good shooter MC and great easy access to amazing cover saves, and a great airforce with lots of other stuff, we lost alot, but I think its still better than before.
tomball0706 wrote: Oh the best/worst bit, when returning the 'dex, the poor guy at GW said I wasn't the first returning it today and that he too is upset with how much of a rush job it seems which made me feel guilty
Yikes. That's not good.
A GumyBear wrote: I would return my dex had I bought one since it sold out at my GW at my FLGS, however I just checked back in yesterday at my FLGS... only to find that almost all the books were back in stock (there was I think 1 book missing) when I asked if they already restocked that fast he reponded quickly with "no they all got returned and I'm not suprised"...
Double yikes.
I'm really hoping this acts as a wakeup call to GW.
soomemafia wrote: - Exocrine looks pretty good. Never underestimate large blasts. Or S7. S7 is nice.
Say it with me now: Twenty-four inches!
soomemafia wrote: - Carnifexes seem pretty good to me. Not great, but good.
If one of the good things you can say about a Codex ends with the words "Not great, but good", then we are indeed fishing for good things to say. And you forgot that Carnifex broods out of synapse can punch each other to death.
soomemafia wrote: - Crone. S6AP4 Template. AP4. Ringing any bells? 4+ armor guys that need cover save, anyone?
Doesn't have torrent. It's not a Helldrake. It's not even close to a Helldrake.
soomemafia wrote: - Crone. S6AP4 Template. AP4. Ringing any bells? 4+ armor guys that need cover save, anyone?
Doesn't have torrent. It's not a Helldrake. It's not even close to a Helldrake.
Just a second.
Mmmmmm..... Nope. I just re-read my post and never claimed such.
If your definition of a bad unit is that it's not as good as Heldrake, then no wonder you got disappointed.
As a new Tyranid player, I'm not complaining. I'm sure something will shake out of this codex, even though most people think it will be something smelling like fecal matter.
I gave it a thumbs up. Heck, I did a video review of it.
fartherthanfar wrote: Nids isnt a shooters army so some guns being 24" is fine, especially if they are as strong and versatile as the bio-plasmic cannon
Some guns yes, but maybe not the massive piece of bio-artillery whose entire existance is dedicated to shooting the gigantic cannon on his back.
my Slaanesh Daemon Princes own flyrants. Their lack of invul, lower initiative, etc always loses... Not to mention it's even worse for them now give we actually STILL have access to biomancy. A lot of crack has been smoked prior to writing this. Not to mention shadows doesn't effect tzeentch daemons as they always have a static +3 to their leadership.
While I dont disagree that DPs will eat Flyrants, what is giving your Daemons the +3 ??
Daemons of tzeentch get plus 3 to psy tests
Yes, I was pointing out to him that the +3 is only for Psy Tests. Also most DPs come with wings nowadays, so the Psy Scream power cannot affect them while swooping.
SHUPPET wrote: Return your book. You will get a refund. On the offchance that they try to say no, cite false advertising. It might be shaky but between undelivered model promises such as strong anti-air capabilities, the faked White Dward battle report, and the phrase "all units playable - all units desirable" being used by GW to describe this dex, they probably won't bother arguing it
Where does that come from? I can't recall.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Might be a bit controversial, but I'm actually quite happy with how underwhelming the new book is.
After Tau and Eldar books which are absolutely absurd and game breaking in terms of power (good bye, every faction that relied on cover to survive!), it's nice to have one that's potentially bearable to play against, and doesn't melt half your army within 2 shooting phases.
Well that quite sums up the power level codex, people who are going to play against it like it.
you only need one of the flyrants smash hits to wound to instant kill a DP, (and flyrant is more of a gun beats than a close combat one nowadays, whos considerably cheaper than a DP) if you've won every close combat engagement against a flyrant then I would have to believe that you got lucky, a DP isnt likely to kill a flyrant in one round where a flyrant is likely to kill the dp as he returns blows, plus hes cheaper!!! and shoots like a motha!!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I realise the codex isnt a top dog codex, but its still a good enough codex, I think anyone returning the codex to the shop is silly. Its not like games-workshop is gonna make another one.
I guess the people who are complaining are comparing it to tau and eldar codex, and realise its not as strong ( I would agree) but im not a whinner and I look at what we do have instead of what we dont have. What we do have is a very decent codex which I am looking forward to play with.
if you want to know why I say its a good codex look at my post on page 11 of this thread
then people are gonna say " maybe your satisfied with "good enough" but im not!!!!" and to those people I say: " Poor baby, life is tough eh."
others will say " its not "good enough" its crap de crap" and to those I say: "Look more closely, its a very synergetic codex, look at what you can do instead of what you cant do anymore." For example no doubt the Crone isnt as good as a heldrake, (first of all, of course its not, it would be silly if it was, the heldrake as anyone knows is op, I for one am entirely ok with the crone being less powerfull than a heldrake) then you realise that CSM dont have access to flyrants, Dp arent nearly as good (proportionnally speaking) and only one can get a black mace, and they dont shoot.
make a list with 2 flyrants at 230pts 2 harpies at 150pts and a crone at 155pts and you have a beautifull and cheap airforce that could jink save with shrouded from a 3 venomthrope floating aroundso jinking at 3+ add 2 exocrine and a brood of 2 dakkafexes at 150pts you then have 300pts left for 3 teams of 3 warriors with barbed strangler for troops that can take anti infantry gun very well and still shoot 36" large pie plate that pin. this gives you a 1990pts list that is very hard to beat.
fartherthanfar wrote: you only need one of the flyrants smash hits to wound to instant kill a DP, (and flyrant is more of a gun beats than a close combat one nowadays, whos considerably cheaper than a DP) if you've won every close combat engagement against a flyrant then I would have to believe that you got lucky, a DP isnt likely to kill a flyrant in one round where a flyrant is likely to kill the dp as he returns blows, plus hes cheaper!!! and shoots like a motha!!!!
So what is going to protect you from a CSM Daemon Prince using a Black Mace. It has 5 attacks +1 for charging +d6 for Daemon weapon that is AP2. It has a higher weapon skill and INI. 8-12 AP2 attacks will plaster your Hive Tryant into tomorrow.
Even baseline ChDPs' will own you with ML3 pskers that can easily get Iron Arm, have a 4+ invuln save and still out Melee you and some with weapons that will ID your HT.. Again before you even swing.
Its sounds like your experience with fighting DPs is very limited.
fartherthanfar wrote: you only need one of the flyrants smash hits to wound to instant kill a DP, (and flyrant is more of a gun beats than a close combat one nowadays, whos considerably cheaper than a DP) if you've won every close combat engagement against a flyrant then I would have to believe that you got lucky, a DP isnt likely to kill a flyrant in one round where a flyrant is likely to kill the dp as he returns blows, plus hes cheaper!!! and shoots like a motha!!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I realise the codex isnt a top dog codex, but its still a good enough codex, I think anyone returning the codex to the shop is silly.
Its not like games-workshop is gonna make another one.
I guess the people who are complaining are comparing it to tau and eldar codex, and realise its not as strong ( I would agree) but im not a whinner and I look at what we do have instead of what we dont have.
What we do have is a very decent codex which I am looking forward to play with.
if you want to know why I say its a good codex look at my post on page 11 of this thread
People are returning it because its a bad product, but showing dissatisfaction with it is the only way to prevent such clusterfucks from happening in the future. You can deny it all you want. This codex is option bare and one dimensional, short of the vanguard dataslate allowing stealers and lictors to assault from the shadows (And then you should question GW for making a purposefully incomplete dex) then this book stinks.
When you realize that more then half the books give you hard counters with standard armies its time to pull your head out of your ass.
Matt1785 wrote: This is the THE perfect time to get into Nids. I imagine eBay will be flush with people dumping their armies. So the book is sub-par for tournaments, I still think it's a cool army and I'd still play it despite the rules, I don't play in tournaments, and in friendly games will still be fun to run.
I've never been on the other side of a poor release to be honest. I played old Grey Knights, then our book was good, 6th Edition made it a bummer, oh well. Every other army I just buy, paint, play, think of anther, and move on. I've always wanted to start Tyranids, and this will be the time to snipe some good nid deals online.
Sorry to those that hate the book, and I understand the anger and frustration at such a poor showing. Nothing great about having an army you've probably had forever continually dumped on.
Just in relation to the eBay assumptions, its not. Might come in time but as of now, prices and amount of nids for sale on eBay is largely the same as ever. At least in my country. I doubt it's going to change too much. Prices are already cheap on eBay, people put up miniatures they no longer want, for a price they think they will sell for. I think it's fairly unlikely that they are going to be any cheaper than usual. It's still the cheapest place to look though, you should be able to find a nicely sized army really cheap if you dedicate two weeks to checking just a couple of times each day. You could do this any day of the year though, so I'm going to go ahead and say now is the worst possible time to get into Nids because they have a terrible new ruleset, and you can do exactly what you were planning to do with a nid army with another army, one with a more interesting codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ravenous D wrote: short of the vanguard dataslate allowing stealers and lictors to assault from the shadows (And then you should question GW for making a purposefully incomplete dex)
Is this a thing yet? How do you know that's what it does? More info?
Seems, Natfka can't get it right even after the release :
Reader Review of the Tyranid Codex by Shadow of Prometheus on faeit212
Let’s start this post by stating that I am pleased with the new codex. Remember, I am approaching this as someone who is moving on from the past. We can either lay on the floor, kicking and screaming, or face reality and understand that these are our rules. However, I am not going Pollyanna here, and there are some things I am disappointed did not happen. But this disappointment is not based on changes from the last dex…it is based on missed opportunities.
Overall, the book is quality. The artwork, even the carryover, is gorgeous. If I am going to spend $50 on a hardcover book, it had better be a beauty…this one is. I really like the layout of the codex and the fold-out reference pages at the end. The sections for army rules, bio-artifacts, biomorphs, weapons…all well organized and easy to read. So as a book, it meets the high standards I expect from GW.
Let’s talk next about content, not rules. I was disappointed that there was so much carryover from the last dex in terms of backstory. The story of Old One Eye was copied verbatim from the previous book, as is true of much of the narrative. With the stable of exceptional writers that GW has, there should have been lots more new content. There was a bit scattered about, mostly with the new units. That I would have expected anyway. But with the existing units, there should have been much more new backstory for each. It just feels like laziness and trying to push this thing out the door. As previously discussed, the artwork is exceptional. I am particularly fond of the map on page 31 that is a wonderful representation of all of the major Hive Fleets and where they have attacked. It provides a great sense of scale in terms of the 40K venue. Here again, however, there are many pieces of artwork carried over from the last dex; this is particularly true when it comes to carryover units. C’mon, GW, you have so many resources. Almost all of the artwork for this book should have been new. So in terms of new content, I was disappointed.
Now a brief comment on the rules. I say brief because I will be going into much more detail as we get more experience with this codex.
I like this rule set.
Just kidding…not that brief!! Seriously, I do like the rules I have to use now. I like the changes to synapse. Are they more harsh for violators? Absolutely! Many will disagree, but this is a good thing. Our army is based on the fact that the Hive Mind has a connection to each and every creature. When they do not, it is not a good thing. If you cannot keep your beasties in synapse with the new rule set, you may want to reconsider playing Nids. Don’t mean to be harsh, but this is probably the most basic concept when playing Bugs. The best part is that we now have the tools to significantly increase our synapse range. I have admittedly lost synapse in latter parts of a game or two, and have paid for that lapse. Now it should be much easier to avoid the potentially devastating effects.
I also like the new psychic powers. We are now aligned with the BRB in terms of our powers being more random; I am ok with this. The new powers are also useful in several ways. I will detail some thoughts on the use of the new powers in future posts.
Next, I know that many will feel there is a lack of transport capacity in this codex. I would agree. It means that we will have to be more cognizant of ways to compensate for this. We still have the option of outflanking a few of our units. We still have some units that can burrow and jump out of holes. A few of our bug buddies can deep strike. Moreover, one of our troops, Hormagaunts, now have the potential to move-run a total of 15” with good run die (which we can reroll because they are fleet). For those units that do not have any of the above options, I would suggest that we find creative ways to protect them as they move to engage their gun-heavy opponents.
Last comment for this installment; I am very disappointed that there was not some inclusion of compensation for a lack of allies for Tyranids. Extra FOC slots, Genestealer Cults…something!! Nids are already a challenging army to be successful with. When I actually win, or even tie a game with the experienced players I throw down with, I always feel I have accomplished something. Not giving Tyranids the chance to even the playing field in terms of 6th edition allies seems a significant oversight. Something in the future? Maybe. But even my optimistic outlook on things doesn’t see it coming.
OK. First salvo fired. Lots more detailed analysis and commentary in the coming days and weeks. Have my first game with the new rules.
BTW good that more and more people are returning their Codex. Only message GW managers might understand.
The story of Old One Eye was copied verbatim from the previous book, as is true of much of the narrative. With the stable of exceptional writers that GW has, there should have been lots more new content. There was a bit scattered about, mostly with the new units. That I would have expected anyway. But with the existing units, there should have been much more new backstory for each. It just feels like laziness and trying to push this thing out the door
That's a bad sign. If they're literally copypasting fluff entries from the last book then they really did rush this thing.
People saying that this book is "good" or "better" need to look at it realistically, an army got many major nerfs with very miniscule buffs and now has the ability to lose in the first turn of playing at least a half knowledgavle opponent and almost insta lose to ig since their synapse is such a killer. You dont even really have to fight the nid army just fight the synapse and you win. If an ig army can easilly take out nids in one turn of shooting then what kind of "forging the narrative" is going on?
The first line basically says "I'm pretending like the old books don't exist and this is something new *Rocks back and forth nervously"
Next part: "This book is soooooooooo pretty its worth the money I wasted" FUN FACT: there are lots of books with the same page count and pretty level that are hard cover for half the cost. Guess he also didn't notice the crap ton of typos. Pyrovores hitting every model on the table is interesting...
Next part: At least he is capable of disappointment.
Medium of Death wrote: I never thought about returning Codex's. I'm surprised that most stores would honour that.
GWs mostly don't allow you to return books because of the plastic wrap, it counts as open product. But if you can deal with the hard time they give you you'll get it back. FLGS aren't that worried about it.
Well depending on a country at least in euro land you can return a lot of stuff . For some stuff you have even 30 days .
I have a funny story too . My friend that pre ordered some of the stuff , is happy about everything . Even the codex . And it is not the rules , its the actual book he is happy about . Somehow he got lucky and got a miss print one and 5 pages have this , I don't know how to call them in english, things . On the top and bottom corners which make the pages bigger . His codex evolved to be bigger then the other books.
Okay I made the tough decision to bite the bullet and keep this crap codex. I have decided to actually buy some new models and play with them, despite supporting this kind of rushed, hack job, money grabbing crap. I have no doubt that part of the reason this codex feels so bad is because it had to be modified due to the out come of the law suit with Chapter House. To those saying, "Look at this codex in a vacuum, or as a new player..." Cut the crap. You can not, in a game, take one piece of it, and make an educated opinion of it. You have to compare it to its precursors and its competitors. This codex is worse than the CSM codex and I do play CSM before anyone calls me on it, I was disappointed in the CSM codex, I am just floored with how bad the new Tyranid codex is.
I don't personally care that this codex is not on par with Eldar/Tau, I am just amazed that this codex hardly stacks up against the 5th edition Tyranid codex IN 5th! Not even considering what wonders the 6th BRB psychic powers brought nids, just in relation to 5th edition nids playing in 5th to the now 6th nids playing in 6th. This codex is just poorly written in every meaning of the phrase and the crunch is so horrible I scoff at the notion it was play tested.
Now, with that said, it is still not bad as far as power level goes. It will do just fine against anything short of Tau, Eldar, Screamstar, etc.
The problem is that the 5th codex was filled with unusably crap units and the 6th codex is filled with the exact same crap units. Except now, the powerful units of 5th were nerfed to make the terrible units seem more appealing. The problem with this codex is there was little thought put into a lot of the units. What am I supposed to do with Genestealers? Pyrovores? OOE and Deathleaper? Synapse is to important to let slide with two HQ options that don't have it.Hormagaunts are as bad as they have always been and in every way inferior to Termagaunts. Ripper Swarms? What, will anyone every consider using these? THEY WENT UP IN POINTS! Lictors are still bad.
I'm going to stop here but I hope I illustrated my point. It's like GW made no effort to make some of these units playable even at a casual level. They have sucked for years and will continue to suck for years, making the codex full of not must takes, but only options. My only options are to take the least terrible units, which can still work and can still make the army run. But there are just some units that make no sense and will never be taken in any list.
EDIT: Also, I would like to point out to some naysayers that the idea that Tyranids lost the ability to stack weapon biomorphs, read it again. Each pair of weapons counts as ONE weapon. Which means that a warriors with Rending Claws and LW/BS still get rending, insta death on 6's, and +3 initiative.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: Okay I made the tough decision to bite the bullet and keep this crap codex. I have decided to actually buy some new models and play with them, despite supporting this kind of rushed, hack job, money grabbing crap. I have no doubt that part of the reason this codex feels so bad is because it had to be modified due to the out come of the law suit with Chapter House. To those saying, "Look at this codex in a vacuum, or as a new player..." Cut the crap. You can not, in a game, take one piece of it, and make an educated opinion of it. You have to compare it to its precursors and its competitors. This codex is worse than the CSM codex and I do play CSM before anyone calls me on it, I was disappointed in the CSM codex, I am just floored with how bad the new Tyranid codex is.
I don't personally care that this codex is not on par with Eldar/Tau, I am just amazed that this codex hardly stacks up against the 5th edition Tyranid codex IN 5th! Not even considering what wonders the 6th BRB psychic powers brought nids, just in relation to 5th edition nids playing in 5th to the now 6th nids playing in 6th. This codex is just poorly written in every meaning of the phrase and the crunch is so horrible I scoff at the notion it was play tested.
Now, with that said, it is still not bad as far as power level goes. It will do just fine against anything short of Tau, Eldar, Screamstar, etc.
The problem is that the 5th codex was filled with unusably crap units and the 6th codex is filled with the exact same crap units. Except now, the powerful units of 5th were nerfed to make the terrible units seem more appealing. The problem with this codex is there was little thought put into a lot of the units. What am I supposed to do with Genestealers? Pyrovores? OOE and Deathleaper? Synapse is to important to let slide with two HQ options that don't have it.Hormagaunts are as bad as they have always been and in every way inferior to Termagaunts. Ripper Swarms? What, will anyone every consider using these? THEY WENT UP IN POINTS! Lictors are still bad.
I'm going to stop here but I hope I illustrated my point. It's like GW made no effort to make some of these units playable even at a casual level. They have sucked for years and will continue to suck for years, making the codex full of not must takes, but only options. My only options are to take the least terrible units, which can still work and can still make the army run. But there are just some units that make no sense and will never be taken in any list.
We call this the apologetic stage of the cycle of abuse.
Kroothawk wrote: Seems, Natfka can't get it right even after the release :
Reader Review of the Tyranid Codex by Shadow of Prometheus on faeit212 (stuff).
Natfka stopped doing criticism after GW closed his site for a few days. Since then, everything is awesome. Escalation? Awesome. Supplements? Awesome. Centurions´ models? So beautiful. Everything GW does is a masterpiece. Not a single flaw is detected except the most glaring.
I still visit his page, but he is a vendor now.
BTW good that more and more people are returning their Codex. Only message GW managers might understand.
I can't even believe I bought it, honestly, or was seriously considering starting Tyranids again. Maybe if I had paid more attention to the Tyranid rumor thread the past few days I could have dodged a $50 bullet...I've been working late and spending what little free time I have for the past week talking to my maybe future girlfriend, so I didn't see any of the copy/pasted info from the new book. I expected it to be bad, but I expected a lazy copy/paste of the 5th edition rulebook with point cost tweaks (all decreases) and the new units added in with rules designed to sell them. I really didn't think GW had the balls to make it any worse. But by God they did.
I've seen that some of the Rulebook art has made it's way in to the codex. Out of interest has anybody scanned through and identified new art? Or at least art that was not present in the last codex and isn't in the current 40k rulebook?
I wonder how the sales figures for Tyranids are doing? I think this has been the most negative release yet (in terms of online opinion) and I wonder if that's translating into substantial real world sales loss.
The more negative info. I hear about this book the more I want to pick it up. Morbid curiosity.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: EDIT: Also, I would like to point out to some naysayers that the idea that Tyranids lost the ability to stack weapon biomorphs, read it again. Each pair of weapons counts as ONE weapon. Which means that a warriors with Rending Claws and LW/BS still get rending, insta death on 6's, and +3 initiative.
Perhaps you should read pg 51 of the BRB again about More than One Weapon. You can either get Rending or ID+INI, not both.
Medium of Death wrote: I've seen that some of the Rulebook art has made it's way in to the codex. Out of interest has anybody scanned through and identified new art? Or at least art that was not present in the last codex and isn't in the current 40k rulebook?
I wonder how the sales figures for Tyranids are doing? I think this has been the most negative release yet (in terms of online opinion) and I wonder if that's translating into substantial real world sales loss.
The more negative info. I hear about this book the more I want to pick it up. Morbid curiosity.
I don't think that the people they see as their main group of buyers goes around and reads stuff on forums , before they buy their models . Also because most of those people join in groups , no one wants to be left outside . So even if nids suck they will buy them , because you never one to be the only guy not playing the few other table top gamers from your school.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: EDIT: Also, I would like to point out to some naysayers that the idea that Tyranids lost the ability to stack weapon biomorphs, read it again. Each pair of weapons counts as ONE weapon. Which means that a warriors with Rending Claws and LW/BS still get rending, insta death on 6's, and +3 initiative.
Perhaps you should read pg 51 of the BRB again about More than One Weapon. You can either get Rending or ID+INI, not both.
You're right...I just got hopeful. I know, I shouldn't have with this codex.
no more armoured shell for the tyrant. that is true. but the tyrant is much better than before so im not complaining.
You take the Tyrant for his possibility to become the best type ever, Flying Monstrous Creature. Flying 24 inches forward an then shooting 12 shots twin-linked at a better Bs (Bs4) and str of 6. Being a more potent psyker than before with better deny the witch potential, 2 cast per turn and a shadow in the warp upgrade (loss of iron arm posibility which does really suck but hive mind powers are very decent). Whats great is even though its better than before, and it was our star player in the last dex, its now 30pts less!!! that is just amazing!!! plus it gets much better synergy from the rest of the codex since harpys and crones are a super viable option and distract the anti air shot of the opponent.
if people are not able to realise how good the flyrant now became than they will never be happy.
I'll just recopy what I've found personally as a jist... the codex overall is VERY poor one way or another..
Close combat Biomorphs are no longer applied to all CC attacks, instead you choose which ONE weapon applies to any attack..
Losing Scything talons ability to reroll 1's forces you to run other biomorphs on units that only have scything talons to start
Losing access to ANY other psychic powers
These 3 changes alone are painful enough... but STREAMLINING the cost of biomorphs has destroyed some models more than anything. Those models that could get Regeneration for 20-25, or adrenal glands for 5-10 are now punished, and for the sake of not wanting to take extreme measures against my own custom Tyranid Prime I will ignore how this destroys him as a feasible model alone.
We lost not one, or two, or even three but FOUR units within the codex, with little to replace them. All FMC suffer from the same problem, everyone else has skyfire EXCEPT tyranids, and of WE get shot we have a chance to fall out of the sky. No durability added in, it becomes a game of "when does a stray bullet knock me out of the sky".
Tyrants were nerfed in the means of Old Adversary, no longer STARTING with bone sword and lash whip but now having to spend 20 POINTS to take them, no way of getting 2+ armor.. I mean yes making Tyrant guard autopass look out sir rolls is amazing, but again... game full of ID and ap 2-3.
I'll ignore the Tervigon's existance for the same reason as the overpricing on the Tyranid prime.
Old one eye and death leaper are intersting as HQ, except.... no synapse = not going to be used. Synapse is too mandatory now.
Troops are still as per standard.. everything's points have pretty much evened out to be the exact same, except for Rippers which they should white out of the codex if they're just going to insult us with them, and INCREASING the cost of a Broodlord, and scything talons while taking away their ability, and forcing the BL to take the same power every time...
Elites are again more of the same, Hive guard shouldn't have gone up in price, though getting adrenal glands IS nice. Lictors are a bit more viable now with infiltrade to not bring them in via DS but instead use them as a turn 1 locator beacon. Zoanthropes..... heh... I'm sure I'm not alone saying id rather roll 3 rolls and get 3 saves with 3 shots than 1 set of rolls with 3 shots. Venomthropes got better, point blank easy. Surprisingly so did Pyrovores, but their still useless. Haruspex.... will NEVER see use. it's a weaker old one eye that is more fragile than old one eye, has less attacks, and with an odd number of attacks, no extras, and WS 3, he might hit once a round and MIGHT get the second attack. mandatory adrenal glands to try and get most things across the field.
Fast, Shrikes went down in price with upgrades going up... enough said. Raveners are still the same, except terror is stupidly overpriced. Sky slashers... see ripper requirement for whiteout. Gargoyles... nerfed. up in points. annoying and needless. Harpy/crone... see flyrant issue with being FMC, only these guys have lower saves, and toughness, and worse overall stats. Only upside is MAYBE haywire missling 1 maybe 2 enemy fliers.
Heavy, Carnifex are usable again, very usable. Biovores... got nerfed HARD losing their 1/biovore in the unit, so unless you're eating up multiple heavy slots with 1 biovore at a time to try and cover the field with mines they are vastly under useful for body production. Trygon and prime lost rerolls AND an attack to go down 10 points and up the cost of regen and adrenal glands by 5 points... the ONLY plus here is if you want to dump a load of points, you can give the Prime a bio artifact to adapt its attacks but even that is just putting MORE cost to it... Mawlock got a buff and debuff in one, so dead even. Tyrannofex got the point drop it needed, but not the rupture cannon upgrade it needed, the gun should be at LEAST ap 3, not 4. Exocrine is by far the best of the new units, since if you platform it it goes to bs4, IF you platform it. Still not that good though.
I love tyranids.. so I've been mulling this over for the last 2-3 days reading and re reading and comparing the codex to the old one checking for little things that were changed hear and there.. and well, they removed things and hid it under a pile of slight point reductions and a couple of VERY justified point reductions.
soomemafia wrote: Just a second.
Mmmmmm..... Nope. I just re-read my post and never claimed such.
I took the "ringing any bells" as an implied "it's like another certain flyer unit that's really good". Clearly I was mistaken.
soomemafia wrote: If your definition of a bad unit is that it's not as good as Heldrake, then no wonder you got disappointed.
And while we're on the subject of things not said...
So a misunderstanding here as well. From my point of view I tod that Crone is good unit and the answer I get is that "it's not Heldrake"
And yes, I was simply nothing that 4+ saves are pretty common with current power of Tau and Eldar, so this might be pretty good.
Oh, and Haywire Missiles. Aand S8 Vector Strike. Overall it's not a bad flyer.
fartherthanfar wrote: no more armoured shell for the tyrant. that is true. but the tyrant is much better than before so im not complaining.
You take the Tyrant for his possibility to become the best type ever, Flying Monstrous Creature. Flying 24 inches forward an then shooting 12 shots twin-linked at a better Bs (Bs4) and str of 6. Being a more potent psyker than before with better deny the witch potential, 2 cast per turn and a shadow in the warp upgrade (loss of iron arm posibility which does really suck but hive mind powers are very decent). Whats great is even though its better than before, and it was our star player in the last dex, its now 30pts less!!! that is just amazing!!! plus it gets much better synergy from the rest of the codex since harpys and crones are a super viable option and distract the anti air shot of the opponent.
if people are not able to realise how good the flyrant now became than they will never be happy.
> Almost exactly the same as the last codex with stats except for a change to BS and Intuitive > Can't footslog anymore without spending another 150 points on Tyranid guards > Can fly, just like in the last codex > Can use devourers, just like in the last codex > 30 point decrease, wow that does sound good > Oh wait I can't increase my toughness, I've got randomised mediocre psychic powers, and I no longer can avoid the massive issue of lacking a 2+ save > "Synergy" > Best hope the enemy isn't smart enough to shoot at the actual threat huh 'eh guys? I hope you realize that's not work synergy means, that's what we call a distraction.
So, the angry person in me is actually tempted to buy the new codex with the sole intent of returning it. I'm running a fairly bad CSM list against it tomorrow, and expecting to beat it quite handily. I have no idea what sort of Tyranid list I'm going to be facing, but I expect it to crumble horriffically against the CSMs. I don't expect them to ever make it to CC with me, since I figure all the synapse is just going to explode in a hail of ap3 bolter fire.
fartherthanfar wrote: no more armoured shell for the tyrant. that is true. but the tyrant is much better than before so im not complaining.
You take the Tyrant for his possibility to become the best type ever, Flying Monstrous Creature.
Flying 24 inches forward an then shooting 12 shots twin-linked at a better Bs (Bs4) and str of 6. Being a more potent psyker than before with better deny the witch potential, 2 cast per turn and a shadow in the warp upgrade (loss of iron arm posibility which does really suck but hive mind powers are very decent). Whats great is even though its better than before, and it was our star player in the last dex, its now 30pts less!!! that is just amazing!!! plus it gets much better synergy from the rest of the codex since harpys and crones are a super viable option and distract the anti air shot of the opponent.
if people are not able to realise how good the flyrant now became than they will never be happy.
But it is still bad writing to eliminate choices. Choosing between wings and 2+ was good internal balance. I for one think walking tyrants look better than winged ones, but now winged is the only real option.
fartherthanfar wrote: no more armoured shell for the tyrant. that is true. but the tyrant is much better than before so im not complaining.
You take the Tyrant for his possibility to become the best type ever, Flying Monstrous Creature.
Flying 24 inches forward an then shooting 12 shots twin-linked at a better Bs (Bs4) and str of 6. Being a more potent psyker than before with better deny the witch potential, 2 cast per turn and a shadow in the warp upgrade (loss of iron arm posibility which does really suck but hive mind powers are very decent). Whats great is even though its better than before, and it was our star player in the last dex, its now 30pts less!!! that is just amazing!!! plus it gets much better synergy from the rest of the codex since harpys and crones are a super viable option and distract the anti air shot of the opponent.
if people are not able to realise how good the flyrant now became than they will never be happy.
But it is still bad writing to eliminate choices. Choosing between wings and 2+ was good internal balance. I for one think walking tyrants look better than winged ones, but now winged is the only real option.
Agreed, I quite liked my Armoured Shell Tyrant in 5th edition... it was always a pain in the butt for my opponents to deal with.
Do you think being able to split Synapse units, like Warriors, up and put them into units that don't have Synapse would have helped at all? Kind of like how the Royal Court or Wolf Guard work. Or do you think that would have been too "Squad Leader" esque for Tyranids?
MIni MIehm wrote: So, the angry person in me is actually tempted to buy the new codex with the sole intent of returning it. I'm running a fairly bad CSM list against it tomorrow, and expecting to beat it quite handily. I have no idea what sort of Tyranid list I'm going to be facing, but I expect it to crumble horriffically against the CSMs. I don't expect them to ever make it to CC with me, since I figure all the synapse is just going to explode in a hail of ap3 bolter fire.
Assuming this isn't humor. I fully expect them to destroy you You best make good target priority or you be eaten.
MIni MIehm wrote: So, the angry person in me is actually tempted to buy the new codex with the sole intent of returning it. I'm running a fairly bad CSM list against it tomorrow, and expecting to beat it quite handily. I have no idea what sort of Tyranid list I'm going to be facing, but I expect it to crumble horriffically against the CSMs. I don't expect them to ever make it to CC with me, since I figure all the synapse is just going to explode in a hail of ap3 bolter fire.
Assuming this isn't humor. I fully expect them to destroy you You best make good target priority or you be eaten.
Good target priority is easy when the giant hive tyrant is goofing off shouting "hey im a synapse creature if you kill me you win" simply take your tri-las preds and give it a whirl or better yet just gun them down with those 1k sons you have since they cant take a 2+ and you can just pump out enough bullets to eventually do something
@ mr crimson, it isnt BAD writing to eliminate choices. Every codex that EVER came out eliminated choice from previous issues.
you guys are all such whiny baby, STOP LOOKING ONLY AT WHAT YOU LOST. Look at the loss and compare with what we gained and realize it very decent.
for example: yes we lost the 2+ walking tyrant, a mediocre option from last dex, what we gained is a considerably better flyrant for 30 pt cheaper.... I will repeat that for the thick skulls out there, 30 pts cheaper yet better than before! (and it was our best unit last dex)
fartherthanfar wrote: no more armoured shell for the tyrant. that is true. but the tyrant is much better than before so im not complaining.
You take the Tyrant for his possibility to become the best type ever, Flying Monstrous Creature.
Flying 24 inches forward an then shooting 12 shots twin-linked at a better Bs (Bs4) and str of 6. Being a more potent psyker than before with better deny the witch potential, 2 cast per turn and a shadow in the warp upgrade (loss of iron arm posibility which does really suck but hive mind powers are very decent). Whats great is even though its better than before, and it was our star player in the last dex, its now 30pts less!!! that is just amazing!!! plus it gets much better synergy from the rest of the codex since harpys and crones are a super viable option and distract the anti air shot of the opponent.
if people are not able to realise how good the flyrant now became than they will never be happy.
But it is still bad writing to eliminate choices. Choosing between wings and 2+ was good internal balance. I for one think walking tyrants look better than winged ones, but now winged is the only real option.
Agreed, I quite liked my Armoured Shell Tyrant in 5th edition... it was always a pain in the butt for my opponents to deal with.
I still miss my 3rd edition winged tyrants. 2+ save, winged, and came with warp blast every time for under 200 points....those were the days.....
fartherthanfar wrote: @ mr crimson, it isnt BAD writing to eliminate choices. Every codex that EVER came out eliminated choice from previous issues.
you guys are all such whiny baby, STOP LOOKING ONLY AT WHAT YOU LOST. Look at the loss and compare with what we gained and realize it very decent.
for example: yes we lost the 2+ walking tyrant, a mediocre option from last dex, what we gained is a considerably better flyrant for 30 pt cheaper.... I will repeat that for the thick skulls out there, 30 pts cheaper yet better than before! (and it was our best unit last dex)
Nids lost survivability. All in all your gonna get about 10-15% more bodies for your points. It is not nearly enough to compensate for all we lost.
we didnt lose survivability, we gained it, Venomthropes anyone!? sure we lost biomancy with its amazing iron arm, its was a 1 out of 3 chances for a flyrant to get it. I much prefer the current flyrant
I am amazed at the level of unhapinness coming from some of you guys (and girls possibly). some of you really think that returning the codex to the store will change GW ways? Get your heads out of your asses and grow some balls, when life deals you a crappy hand you deal with it like a man, not like a whiny biitch. If anything im happy that this isnt a top dog codex, I would feel bad winning even more than before simply due to the table being tilted in my favor. I much prefer winning when the table is tilted against me. (by this I mean fighting a wave serpent spam or triptide or screamerstars cuz against other list that arent as optimized (in an op way) I feel im evenly matched)
people are whinning saying "str4 ap3 bolters will destroy me" my answer is "are you high?" all of our ArSv 3+ guys are T6 with 4-6 wounds and can still get coversaves and even feel no pain. ap3 bolters dont scare me in the least.
notice that whenever im talking about the new codex im mentionning the good but also the bad, im actually looking at the full picture, most everyone else is just going "We lost this, and that, and he isnt as good as before, and this one didnt get better like i was hoping..." with no mention of what we actually gained.
how to recognize a hater: they only see the bad and focus on that, they chooses to ignore the good, if they do see it and/or mention it they add why its not enough. They can't actually accept that there is anything good in this codex cuz they want to whine, and admiting that some things got better would not satisfy them in their need to hate, biitch and moan.
we didnt lose survivability, we gained it, Venomthropes anyone!?
As someone who is an Emperor's Children player, aka Noise Marine Blastmasters. I still don't understand this statement.
Also considering that Tau will easily Ignores Cover all over, Eldar won't care and simply drown you in rate of fire, Dark Eldar still being your counter and all..
how to recognize a hater: they only see the bad and focus on that, they chooses to ignore the good, if they do see it and/or mention it they add why its not enough. They can't actually accept that there is anything good in this codex cuz they want to whine, and admiting that some things got better would not satisfy them in their need to hate, biitch and moan.
How to recognise someone who cannot argue for the life of them. Note the use of the term "hater", and the words whining and bitching. It's almost like we're on the YouTube comment section. This poorly strung together ad-hom attack is used when the user is countered by logic, or a decent response.
I've looked at the full picture, in fact, I've looked over it and searched for something to like, but the copious amount of crap that cover and smudge the small amounts of mediocre to good stuff is ludicrous. One or two good units are not good when the other twelve range from mediocre to awful. You don't even need to make comparisons with the last codex to know this, unless, your fine with mono build.
fishy bob wrote: I haven't read through the whole thread, but have people actually had success returning the book? Even with the shrink wrap gone?
Depends where you bought it from, GW will give you a hard time, but then just call customer service.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
fartherthanfar wrote: we didnt lose survivability, we gained it, Venomthropes anyone!? sure we lost biomancy with its amazing iron arm, its was a 1 out of 3 chances for a flyrant to get it. I much prefer the current flyrant
I am amazed at the level of unhapinness coming from some of you guys (and girls possibly). some of you really think that returning the codex to the store will change GW ways? Get your heads out of your asses and grow some balls, when life deals you a crappy hand you deal with it like a man, not like a whiny biitch.
If anything im happy that this isnt a top dog codex, I would feel bad winning even more than before simply due to the table being tilted in my favor. I much prefer winning when the table is tilted against me. (by this I mean fighting a wave serpent spam or triptide or screamerstars cuz against other list that arent as optimized (in an op way) I feel im evenly matched)
people are whinning saying "str4 ap3 bolters will destroy me" my answer is "are you high?" all of our ArSv 3+ guys are T6 with 4-6 wounds and can still get coversaves and even feel no pain. ap3 bolters dont scare me in the least.
notice that whenever im talking about the new codex im mentionning the good but also the bad, im actually looking at the full picture, most everyone else is just going "We lost this, and that, and he isnt as good as before, and this one didnt get better like i was hoping..." with no mention of what we actually gained.
how to recognize a hater: they only see the bad and focus on that, they chooses to ignore the good, if they do see it and/or mention it they add why its not enough. They can't actually accept that there is anything good in this codex cuz they want to whine, and admiting that some things got better would not satisfy them in their need to hate, biitch and moan.
how to recognize a hater: they only see the bad and focus on that, they chooses to ignore the good, if they do see it and/or mention it they add why its not enough. They can't actually accept that there is anything good in this codex cuz they want to whine, and admiting that some things got better would not satisfy them in their need to hate, biitch and moan.
How to recognise someone who cannot argue for the life of them. Note the use of the term "hater", and the words whining and bitching. It's almost like we're on the YouTube comment section. This poorly strung together ad-hom attack is used when the user is countered by logic, or a decent response.
I've looked at the full picture, in fact, I've looked over it and searched for something to like, but the copious amount of crap that cover and smudge the small amounts of mediocre to good stuff is ludicrous.
But dude, the flyrant is the bestest ever! No one can shoot them down in one turn! Only WAAC jerks do that!
As a tyanid player whose just bought the codex and had a chance to ponder it I’d like to add my opinion.
Firstly I agree that the codex production is quite lazy and it is mildly annoying that for such an expensive book, much of the art, stories, etc is just a rehash of old stuff.
But anyway onto the rules.
I don’t believe that the list is bad, I think at first glance it seems that way because it doesn’t have a blockbuster unit (other than the flyrant) but that’s actually a good thing because the codex is much better balanced internally than most. This codex is incredibly synergistic, everything depends on each other- the hordes depend on the monstrous creatures for synapse while the monstrous creatures depend on the hordes for cover and objectives. The problem is with tyranids more than most is that, if you overwhelm one portion of it (usually the synapse) then the entire thing falls apart spectacularly. This means that you need massive redundancy with this codex so it’s a combined arms force with just so much of everything that you overwhelm your opponent, this is obviously the way the designers intended it to be since by and large point costs have gone down for almost everything. I do think it will be quite a good army when played cheaply and numerously.
The problem I have with this is that seems the ONLY way to play it; because of all this redundancy you need and because they got rid of spores and yamagarls, the codex has almost no depth to it. I think the only way to play tyranids now is bumrushing up the board with loads of everything so that the only choice you are really making is having mostly big bugs or having mostly little bugs, still you are talking about taking lots and rushing them head on.
I played a deep strike list in 5th because I enjoyed having less on the board for the ability to ambush, I’m gutted that this option is gone now with little offered instead.
I also think it was lazy of gw to keep synapse basically the way it was. Why not reward players for layering synapse somehow instead of just making it necessary to do so or else, that massively cuts down on the depth of the codex. In dawn of war there is different synapses which give you different bonuses and I thought something like this might come in to play on tabletop.
The other thing which smacks of laziness to me is having one biomorph cost for every unit…how can regeneration cost the same for a tervigon or a hive tyrant as a broodlord or a prime? I really can’t see the logic behind that, it was fine before.
Reading the forums though, I can’t understand people complaining about the tervigons. They were obviously overpowered before, 160 points for a T6 W6 troops unit that spawns more troops? In an objective game?! I think GW have got it right this time and that’s a good thing because it’s still a great unit but the question now is whether to take a tervigon not how many to take.
They do a good balanced review, going over each new thing, and also saying that its all well and good talking about what they see on the paper, but to really see if things will work or if things are really bad or not, they have to play them in a game first. Which I can't agree more with.
fartherthanfar wrote: we didnt lose survivability, we gained it, Venomthropes anyone!? sure we lost biomancy with its amazing iron arm, its was a 1 out of 3 chances for a flyrant to get it. I much prefer the current flyrant
I am amazed at the level of unhapinness coming from some of you guys (and girls possibly). some of you really think that returning the codex to the store will change GW ways? Get your heads out of your asses and grow some balls, when life deals you a crappy hand you deal with it like a man, not like a whiny biitch.
If anything im happy that this isnt a top dog codex, I would feel bad winning even more than before simply due to the table being tilted in my favor. I much prefer winning when the table is tilted against me. (by this I mean fighting a wave serpent spam or triptide or screamerstars cuz against other list that arent as optimized (in an op way) I feel im evenly matched)
Then you obviously playing against inferior opponents. Which is fine if that is your meta, but dont try to pretend that you beating elementary school kids is going to translate to a good codex. The Venom is a nice change, but your precious bug will die first, and then what do you have ? Not much.
fartherthanfar wrote: @ mr crimson, it isnt BAD writing to eliminate choices. Every codex that EVER came out eliminated choice from previous issues.
you guys are all such whiny baby, STOP LOOKING ONLY AT WHAT YOU LOST. Look at the loss and compare with what we gained and realize it very decent.
for example: yes we lost the 2+ walking tyrant, a mediocre option from last dex, what we gained is a considerably better flyrant for 30 pt cheaper.... I will repeat that for the thick skulls out there, 30 pts cheaper yet better than before! (and it was our best unit last dex)
Um... You realise there is a major difference between 3+ and 2+ don't you?
I mean, with 3+ their is a 1/3 chance of being wounded, a 2+
is 1/6
Half as many shots will wound a 2+ as 3+.
Also, hive tyrants with wings are ugly as hell.
Especially when people put fleshborer hives on them, I mean seriously, how does one of those things fly.
Don't say "well how does the harpy/crone/shrike/gargoyles fly?"
They have specialised hollow bones and gas bladders.
fartherthanfar wrote: @ mr crimson, it isnt BAD writing to eliminate choices. Every codex that EVER came out eliminated choice from previous issues.
you guys are all such whiny baby, STOP LOOKING ONLY AT WHAT YOU LOST. Look at the loss and compare with what we gained and realize it very decent.
for example: yes we lost the 2+ walking tyrant, a mediocre option from last dex, what we gained is a considerably better flyrant for 30 pt cheaper.... I will repeat that for the thick skulls out there, 30 pts cheaper yet better than before! (and it was our best unit last dex)
Um... You realise there is a major difference between 3+ and 2+ don't you?
I mean, with 3+ their is a 1/3 chance of being wounded, a 2+
is 1/6
Half as many shots will wound a 2+ as 3+.
Also, hive tyrants with wings are ugly as hell.
Especially when people put fleshborer hives on them, I mean seriously, how does one of those things fly.
Don't say "well how does the harpy/crone/shrike/gargoyles fly?"
They have specialised hollow bones and gas bladders.
No he is right - you are all simply comparing the 5E codex tat for tat without thinking context (6E)... Power Weapons are not the same in 6E and while it would be nice if all of your units were 2+ the impact is not so drastic. And as for ugliness - well, I sort of agree but that's a different story...
fartherthanfar wrote: @ mr crimson, it isnt BAD writing to eliminate choices. Every codex that EVER came out eliminated choice from previous issues.
you guys are all such whiny baby, STOP LOOKING ONLY AT WHAT YOU LOST. Look at the loss and compare with what we gained and realize it very decent.
for example: yes we lost the 2+ walking tyrant, a mediocre option from last dex, what we gained is a considerably better flyrant for 30 pt cheaper.... I will repeat that for the thick skulls out there, 30 pts cheaper yet better than before! (and it was our best unit last dex)
Um... You realise there is a major difference between 3+ and 2+ don't you?
I mean, with 3+ their is a 1/3 chance of being wounded, a 2+
is 1/6
Half as many shots will wound a 2+ as 3+.
Also, hive tyrants with wings are ugly as hell.
Especially when people put fleshborer hives on them, I mean seriously, how does one of those things fly.
Don't say "well how does the harpy/crone/shrike/gargoyles fly?"
They have specialised hollow bones and gas bladders.
of course I realize 2+ is better than 3+
do you realize that most shots that have the strength to hurt the tyrant are gonna be Ap2? And being a FMC will make most of those shot not even hit through lack of skyfire (most skyfire shot are not ap3-2) while also making the tyrant four times faster than by walking, yes he can be grounded but as an overall the flyrant has more survivability than the walking armored carapace tyrant by making the nasty shot miss and not letting him shoot at him for as many turn since in 2 turns he can reach anywhere on the board whereas the armored carapace tyrant can be kited very easily and never do anything other then be a moving target.
ugly models are an opportunity for fun conversion, I love my flyrants, they look awesome, check them out on my profile if you want to see them.
fartherthanfar wrote: @ mr crimson, it isnt BAD writing to eliminate choices. Every codex that EVER came out eliminated choice from previous issues.
you guys are all such whiny baby, STOP LOOKING ONLY AT WHAT YOU LOST. Look at the loss and compare with what we gained and realize it very decent.
for example: yes we lost the 2+ walking tyrant, a mediocre option from last dex, what we gained is a considerably better flyrant for 30 pt cheaper.... I will repeat that for the thick skulls out there, 30 pts cheaper yet better than before! (and it was our best unit last dex)
Um... You realise there is a major difference between 3+ and 2+ don't you?
I mean, with 3+ their is a 1/3 chance of being wounded, a 2+
is 1/6
Half as many shots will wound a 2+ as 3+.
Also, hive tyrants with wings are ugly as hell.
Especially when people put fleshborer hives on them, I mean seriously, how does one of those things fly.
Don't say "well how does the harpy/crone/shrike/gargoyles fly?"
They have specialised hollow bones and gas bladders.
of course I realize 2+ is better than 3+
do you realize that most shots that have the strength to hurt the tyrant are gonna be Ap2? And being a FMC will make most of those shot not even hit through lack of skyfire (most skyfire shot are not ap3-2) while also making the tyrant four times faster than by walking, yes he can be grounded but as an overall the flyrant has more survivability than the walking armored carapace tyrant by making the nasty shot miss and not letting him shoot at him for as many turn since in 2 turns he can reach anywhere on the board whereas the armored carapace tyrant can be kited very easily and never do anything other then be a moving target.
ugly models are an opportunity for fun conversion, I love my flyrants, they look awesome, check them out on my profile if you want to see them.
Missile launchers and skyfire missile launchers are first to come to my mind.
fishy bob wrote: I haven't read through the whole thread, but have people actually had success returning the book? Even with the shrink wrap gone?
Yeah I managed to get a complete refund in my local GW, I had even taken off the shrink wrap. Didn't even really have to make the slightest fuss, just said i wished to return the product and the guy was more than willing to refund me, he even stated himself how he was upset over the codex with nids being his main army, if that doesn't sum up GWdevs. newest "product" then I do not know what will anymore. Oh well, imma solider on and keep playing them, house mate bought the limited edition and man for all those flaws, it is a damn beautiful book
fartherthanfar wrote: we didnt lose survivability, we gained it, Venomthropes anyone!? sure we lost biomancy with its amazing iron arm, its was a 1 out of 3 chances for a flyrant to get it. I much prefer the current flyrant
I am amazed at the level of unhapinness coming from some of you guys (and girls possibly). some of you really think that returning the codex to the store will change GW ways? Get your heads out of your asses and grow some balls, when life deals you a crappy hand you deal with it like a man, not like a whiny biitch. If anything im happy that this isnt a top dog codex, I would feel bad winning even more than before simply due to the table being tilted in my favor. I much prefer winning when the table is tilted against me. (by this I mean fighting a wave serpent spam or triptide or screamerstars cuz against other list that arent as optimized (in an op way) I feel im evenly matched)
Then you obviously playing against inferior opponents. Which is fine if that is your meta, but dont try to pretend that you beating elementary school kids is going to translate to a good codex. The Venom is a nice change, but your precious bug will die first, and then what do you have ? Not much.
I play against a group of people aged 25-30 and even though its true that they arent power gamers, they are by no means bad players.
the venomthropes can be hid by the bigger beast completely, and even if they arent completely hidden then they get a 3+ coversave which can help then survive, its all about strategic placement, I agree they are kinda frail but they can survive if used properly, we can now premeasure so try to avoid being within range of their guns, avoid line of sight, give them other priorities to shoot at.
The problem is, everyone is looking at the new codex, seeing that very little changed, and thinking that because little changed in the book, little changed on the tabletop. I am pretty certain, that even though the changes were 'small', the actual end-result in gameplay will be a lot bigger than everyone realizes.
Every codex that EVER came out eliminated choice from previous issues.
old chaos . Good Plague marines , oblits and flying Demon Princes.
new chaos .Good Plague marines , oblits and flying Demons Planes.
Heh, funny, I remember when the 5th edition CSM book came out everyone bitched about how obliterators were now the worst thing ever.... I also remember everyone bitching about how they were the worst thing ever when the 6th edition book came out... hmmmm....
The tyranids did change big on the tabletop, now they can lose in one turn, and can nuke the table with suicidal pyrovores jumping off a bastion onto blobs o' 30 gaunts
Missile launchers and skyfire missile launchers are first to come to my mind.
skyfire missile are ap4 so a flyrant can take an average of 27 space marines skyfire missile being shot at him before dying if he passes all his grounding test and doesnt have feel no pain to help him, I realize its unlikely to pass so many grounding test but just saying that the skyfire missiles dont really hurt the flyrant much.
yes krak missiles have ap3 and i do realize ArSv2 is better than ArSv3
just saying that all the lascannons out there, the bright/dark lances wraith cannons, plasma shots, fusionguns, melta guns and all sorts of other stuff doesnt care about the armored carapace, but do care about it being a flyer.
Tau and Eldar don't care about your 3+ cover save, and it's only T4 W2. A single overcharged ion accelerator blast will instant-death it and almost anything around it.
BlaxicanX wrote: Tau and Eldar don't care about your 3+ cover save, and it's only T4 W2. A single overcharged ion accelerator blast will instant-death it and almost anything around it.
as mentionned before I realise tau and eldars are a stronger codex, so I dont expect to have an easy time beating them (its still not impossible, especially if the opponent isnt power gaming). I also realise the venomthrope is frail (i did mention this too)
this is still not to say there isnt anything we can do, for example
- stay out of sight and/or reach of his weapons. use the terrain to your advantage. - dont take any other elite and take 3 teams of 1 venomthrope, this will force a tau player for example to sacrifice a minimum of 6 units to take them out (each venomthropes needed to get added markerlights and then get shot at) - give him other stuff to worry about
fartherthanfar wrote: we didnt lose survivability, we gained it, Venomthropes anyone!? sure we lost biomancy with its amazing iron arm, its was a 1 out of 3 chances for a flyrant to get it. I much prefer the current flyrant
I am amazed at the level of unhapinness coming from some of you guys (and girls possibly). some of you really think that returning the codex to the store will change GW ways? Get your heads out of your asses and grow some balls, when life deals you a crappy hand you deal with it like a man, not like a whiny biitch.
If anything im happy that this isnt a top dog codex, I would feel bad winning even more than before simply due to the table being tilted in my favor. I much prefer winning when the table is tilted against me. (by this I mean fighting a wave serpent spam or triptide or screamerstars cuz against other list that arent as optimized (in an op way) I feel im evenly matched)
people are whinning saying "str4 ap3 bolters will destroy me" my answer is "are you high?" all of our ArSv 3+ guys are T6 with 4-6 wounds and can still get coversaves and even feel no pain. ap3 bolters dont scare me in the least.
notice that whenever im talking about the new codex im mentionning the good but also the bad, im actually looking at the full picture, most everyone else is just going "We lost this, and that, and he isnt as good as before, and this one didnt get better like i was hoping..." with no mention of what we actually gained.
how to recognize a hater: they only see the bad and focus on that, they chooses to ignore the good, if they do see it and/or mention it they add why its not enough. They can't actually accept that there is anything good in this codex cuz they want to whine, and admiting that some things got better would not satisfy them in their need to hate, biitch and moan.
Whiny beaches, well that's new, you raised the bar there really, from the puny WAAC to this. Let's go with the tone, maybe apologist beaches, low quality plebs and casual bastards will finaly realise that even when you like uphil battles (like me for example) there is still little excuse for GW creating a codex thet senselessly nerfed, uninspired and castrated for the sake of paid updates. That's a matter of quality, you want handicaps do it yourself through list building and stop painting it as a high point of he book, not to mention using as an argument for others to suck it up, grow some balls? Grow balls to play toy soldiers at disadvantage? Jesus.
Maybe, just maybe (2%) they did this to release a supplement later, with missed entries and models for them but even if this was the case, proper way to do it would be announcing the fact now somehow. Other than that the book is not fully functional (why is vanguard dataslate not in the codex along with FOC adjusments? Are stealers and lictors better there? Don't you find that fact offensive?
BlaxicanX wrote: Tau and Eldar don't care about your 3+ cover save, and it's only T4 W2. A single overcharged ion accelerator blast will instant-death it and almost anything around it.
as mentionned before I realise tau and eldars are a stronger codex, so I dont expect to have an easy time beating them (its still not impossible, especially if the opponent isnt power gaming).
I also realise the venomthrope is frail (i did mention this too)
this is still not to say there isnt anything we can do, for example
- stay out of sight and/or reach of his weapons. use the terrain to your advantage.
- dont take any other elite and take 3 teams of 1 venomthrope, this will force a tau player for example to sacrifice a minimum of 6 units to take them out (each venomthropes needed to get added markerlights and then get shot at)
- give him other stuff to worry about
fartherthanfar wrote: @ mr crimson, it isnt BAD writing to eliminate choices. Every codex that EVER came out eliminated choice from previous issues.
you guys are all such whiny baby, STOP LOOKING ONLY AT WHAT YOU LOST. Look at the loss and compare with what we gained and realize it very decent.
for example: yes we lost the 2+ walking tyrant, a mediocre option from last dex, what we gained is a considerably better flyrant for 30 pt cheaper.... I will repeat that for the thick skulls out there, 30 pts cheaper yet better than before! (and it was our best unit last dex)
Fair enough, but some of us still have our metal Tyrants on foot lying about that we wish were a viable option... Granted they're not totally screwed with a 3+, but I'd feel much more secure with a 2+ save (and for that matter, Flyrants are the clearly better choice as you've said).
how to recognize a hater: they only see the bad and focus on that, they chooses to ignore the good, if they do see it and/or mention it they add why its not enough. They can't actually accept that there is anything good in this codex cuz they want to whine, and admiting that some things got better would not satisfy them in their need to hate, biitch and moan.
How to recognise someone who cannot argue for the life of them. Note the use of the term "hater", and the words whining and bitching. It's almost like we're on the YouTube comment section. This poorly strung together ad-hom attack is used when the user is countered by logic, or a decent response.
I've looked at the full picture, in fact, I've looked over it and searched for something to like, but the copious amount of crap that cover and smudge the small amounts of mediocre to good stuff is ludicrous. One or two good units are not good when the other twelve range from mediocre to awful. You don't even need to make comparisons with the last codex to know this, unless, your fine with mono build.
For my own part, I do see some good in the Codex (the Heavy Slot, Venomthropes), but in general my thoughts on the book are very negative. It's just a matter of context - in threads about complaining about the Codex, I complain rather than say "oh man, I'm glad to see Tyrannofexes are actually at a reasonable cost now!"
BlaxicanX wrote: Tau and Eldar don't care about your 3+ cover save, and it's only T4 W2. A single overcharged ion accelerator blast will instant-death it and almost anything around it.
as mentionned before I realise tau and eldars are a stronger codex, so I dont expect to have an easy time beating them (its still not impossible, especially if the opponent isnt power gaming).
I also realise the venomthrope is frail (i did mention this too)
this is still not to say there isnt anything we can do, for example
- stay out of sight and/or reach of his weapons. use the terrain to your advantage.
- dont take any other elite and take 3 teams of 1 venomthrope, this will force a tau player for example to sacrifice a minimum of 6 units to take them out (each venomthropes needed to get added markerlights and then get shot at)
- give him other stuff to worry about
I love fisting riptides with my Daemon Princes.
And then they Smash the Prince and he falls apart.
BlaxicanX wrote: Tau and Eldar don't care about your 3+ cover save, and it's only T4 W2. A single overcharged ion accelerator blast will instant-death it and almost anything around it.
as mentionned before I realise tau and eldars are a stronger codex, so I dont expect to have an easy time beating them (its still not impossible, especially if the opponent isnt power gaming).
I also realise the venomthrope is frail (i did mention this too)
this is still not to say there isnt anything we can do, for example
- stay out of sight and/or reach of his weapons. use the terrain to your advantage.
- dont take any other elite and take 3 teams of 1 venomthrope, this will force a tau player for example to sacrifice a minimum of 6 units to take them out (each venomthropes needed to get added markerlights and then get shot at)
- give him other stuff to worry about
I love fisting riptides with my Daemon Princes.
And then they Smash the Prince and he falls apart.
Nah hes got iron arm, warp speed, 4+ fnp, and +1w IWND like the rest of the daemon princes
I still dont understand how the pyrovore becomes a nuke after jumping off a bastion. while i do understand the wording that allows the explosion, its the jumping off that I dont understand.
It has to die from instant death correct? instant death is a usr with specific rules.
a 2 wound model falling off a tower isnt going to die to a single dt test, nor would it explode if it could as its not double the toughness.
and you cant even jump off the tower if you cant place the model legally on the ground, if its forced to via tower destruction its removed from the table, which is not instant death.
So what makes the jumping off a tower work? Cause I dont see it.
Pyrovores are still garbage all the way around, even if you pay the tax to make them torrent, its still not worth it.
No point pointing out gaps in saves, there is no such thing as a infallible save and there isn't for a reason. Some units have ignore cover, more have access to AP2, or AP3 etc.
Best your going to get is Invun, or higher T FNPUSR gives the best defence. Some armies lean on a certain type of save than others.
Nids rely for the most part on cover, and that's how it is.
I agree the codex could have, and should have been better. But how bad it is in terms of 'power' by the internet I feel is a bit of a stretch. Now you can take a unit, point out how it can be one shotted by one other tactic in the game, that's fine, and doesn't really mean much at all as the game works by units strengths and weaknesses, and it's the same for any unit.
I have my first games with the new dex this weekend so I'll see how I get on at least. Hopefully against 1ksons, Marine biker list and Eldar, I'm feeling pretty optimistic.
fartherthanfar wrote: @ mr crimson, it isnt BAD writing to eliminate choices. Every codex that EVER came out eliminated choice from previous issues.
you guys are all such whiny baby, STOP LOOKING ONLY AT WHAT YOU LOST. Look at the loss and compare with what we gained and realize it very decent.
for example: yes we lost the 2+ walking tyrant, a mediocre option from last dex, what we gained is a considerably better flyrant for 30 pt cheaper.... I will repeat that for the thick skulls out there, 30 pts cheaper yet better than before! (and it was our best unit last dex)
You are either a middling troll or an incredible powergamer.
It's not a bad thing to eliminate choice and internal balance inside a codex, if a unit itself gains a stronger option?
I take it this release would be perfect if the codex was a pop-up book, with the best unit and ideal load-out from each section and coming up at you as you turn the pages. Well, it's not really far from it as is, which is why I guess this codex has satisfied you.
Our mentality is a lot different from yours - we want options and internal balance, not an auto-pick HQ, a limit of 1 usable troop choice, a useless fast attack section, and the only choice for elites being "do I take Venomthropes or do I need more Synapse?"
Hooray, you might be able to make a stronger build with the nex dex, using these units. We don't care. It's a terrible book, at this point its beyond ignorant to call everyone whiners. I've even seen talk of it being a disappointment on most the painting blogs I follow.
fartherthanfar wrote: @ mr crimson, it isnt BAD writing to eliminate choices. Every codex that EVER came out eliminated choice from previous issues.
you guys are all such whiny baby, STOP LOOKING ONLY AT WHAT YOU LOST. Look at the loss and compare with what we gained and realize it very decent.
for example: yes we lost the 2+ walking tyrant, a mediocre option from last dex, what we gained is a considerably better flyrant for 30 pt cheaper.... I will repeat that for the thick skulls out there, 30 pts cheaper yet better than before! (and it was our best unit last dex)
You are either a middling troll or an incredible powergamer.
It's not a bad thing to eliminate choice and internal balance inside a codex, if a unit itself gains a stronger option?
I take it this release would be perfect if the codex was a pop-up book, with the best unit and ideal load-out from each section and coming up at you as you turn the pages. Well, it's not really far from it as is, which is why I guess this codex has satisfied you.
Our mentality is a lot different from yours - we want options and internal balance, not an auto-pick HQ, a limit of 1 usable troop choice, a useless fast attack section, and the only choice for elites being "do I take Venomthropes or do I need more Synapse?"
Hooray, you might be able to make a stronger build with the nex dex, using these units. We don't care. It's a terrible book, at this point its beyond ignorant to call everyone whiners. I've even seen talk of it being a disappointment on most the painting blogs I follow.
What's not internally balanced? I thought points increase on things like the Prime, Tervigon & Hive Guard were to address internal balance? This is far more internally balanced than the last.
- stay out of sight and/or reach of his weapons. use the terrain to your advantage.
I don't see this really working to the nid advantage. Staying out of reach of Tau is insanely difficult, and hiding just limits the places you are able to put them. For an army that's main weakness is lacking long range power, I don't see this as a positive.
- give him other stuff to worry about
As a Tau player I don't see how this works to the Nid advantage. I looked through the book to see what I'd have to worry about the next time I went against a nid player, since there are a few in my area. I didn't find anything that scared me. I have a 115 point tank that is a hard counter to every big threat Nids can put out and I usually only brought it for marker lights. The Crone I literally thought was a typo since it actually manages to buff Missilesides and missile pods by having a 4+ and at T5 it gets wounded on 2's. The horde units don't even really bother me that much since Piranha with drones will mulch through them.
I'm not trying to brag about Tau, nor am I trying to really dog on the nids. As a Tau player I'm actually upset to see this. I literally have nothing to change in my list to handle what's supposed to be a changing meta. I have nothing to worry about or hard counter to face in the new army. 40K for all it's imperfections is supposed to work as an imbalanced game with the power creep slowly making things change. But then we have spikes like the Tau and Eldar with lows like the DA, CSM, and now the Nids that really manage to cement the current "OP" netlists as "OP" answers to everything.
fartherthanfar wrote: @ mr crimson, it isnt BAD writing to eliminate choices. Every codex that EVER came out eliminated choice from previous issues.
you guys are all such whiny baby, STOP LOOKING ONLY AT WHAT YOU LOST. Look at the loss and compare with what we gained and realize it very decent.
for example: yes we lost the 2+ walking tyrant, a mediocre option from last dex, what we gained is a considerably better flyrant for 30 pt cheaper.... I will repeat that for the thick skulls out there, 30 pts cheaper yet better than before! (and it was our best unit last dex)
You are either a middling troll or an incredible powergamer.
It's not a bad thing to eliminate choice and internal balance inside a codex, if a unit itself gains a stronger option?
I take it this release would be perfect if the codex was a pop-up book, with the best unit and ideal load-out from each section and coming up at you as you turn the pages. Well, it's not really far from it as is, which is why I guess this codex has satisfied you.
Our mentality is a lot different from yours - we want options and internal balance, not an auto-pick HQ, a limit of 1 usable troop choice, a useless fast attack section, and the only choice for elites being "do I take Venomthropes or do I need more Synapse?"
Hooray, you might be able to make a stronger build with the nex dex, using these units. We don't care. It's a terrible book, at this point its beyond ignorant to call everyone whiners. I've even seen talk of it being a disappointment on most the painting blogs I follow.
What's not internally balanced? I thought points increase on things like the Prime, Tervigon & Hive Guard were to address internal balance? This is far more internally balanced than the last.
Primes didn't need points increases, neither did the Swarmlord when he lost biomancy. Or what about Rippers? HOW THE HECK DID THEY GO UP 3 POINTS!?! The book may be slightly more internally balanced than the last, but the book still boils down to Flyrant/Prime + Hive Guard/Zoanthropes/Venomthropes + Termagants + Biovores/TFexes/Carnifexes/Mawlocs. That's only about 1/3 of the units in the army being worth consideration.
Hive Guard nerf, no pods for Zoanthropes, no Lictor buff, additional of the crappy Haruspex, Pyrovores still gak, no more Ygarls or DoM... so now Elite slot is internally balanced in this sense that.... wow I don't any want any of the crap from this slot in my army except maybe the Venomthrope.
fartherthanfar wrote: @ mr crimson, it isnt BAD writing to eliminate choices. Every codex that EVER came out eliminated choice from previous issues.
you guys are all such whiny baby, STOP LOOKING ONLY AT WHAT YOU LOST. Look at the loss and compare with what we gained and realize it very decent.
for example: yes we lost the 2+ walking tyrant, a mediocre option from last dex, what we gained is a considerably better flyrant for 30 pt cheaper.... I will repeat that for the thick skulls out there, 30 pts cheaper yet better than before! (and it was our best unit last dex)
Um... You realise there is a major difference between 3+ and 2+ don't you?
I mean, with 3+ their is a 1/3 chance of being wounded, a 2+
is 1/6
Half as many shots will wound a 2+ as 3+.
Also, hive tyrants with wings are ugly as hell.
Especially when people put fleshborer hives on them, I mean seriously, how does one of those things fly.
Don't say "well how does the harpy/crone/shrike/gargoyles fly?"
They have specialised hollow bones and gas bladders.
do you realize that most shots that have the strength to hurt the tyrant are gonna be Ap2? And being a FMC will make most of those shot not even hit through lack of skyfire (most skyfire shot are not ap3-2) while also making the tyrant four times faster than by walking, yes he can be grounded but as an overall the flyrant has more survivability than the walking armored carapace tyrant by making the nasty shot miss and not letting him shoot at him for as many turn since in 2 turns he can reach anywhere on the board whereas the armored carapace tyrant can be kited very easily and never do anything other then be a moving target..
My wave serpents arent ap 2 and they will take down your tyrant pretty darn easy.
- stay out of sight and/or reach of his weapons. use the terrain to your advantage.
I don't see this really working to the nid advantage. Staying out of reach of Tau is insanely difficult, and hiding just limits the places you are able to put them. For an army that's main weakness is lacking long range power, I don't see this as a positive.
- give him other stuff to worry about
As a Tau player I don't see how this works to the Nid advantage. I looked through the book to see what I'd have to worry about the next time I went against a nid player, since there are a few in my area. I didn't find anything that scared me. I have a 115 point tank that is a hard counter to every big threat Nids can put out and I usually only brought it for marker lights. The Crone I literally thought was a typo since it actually manages to buff Missilesides and missile pods by having a 4+ and at T5 it gets wounded on 2's. The horde units don't even really bother me that much since Piranha with drones will mulch through them.
I'm not trying to brag about Tau, nor am I trying to really dog on the nids. As a Tau player I'm actually upset to see this. I literally have nothing to change in my list to handle what's supposed to be a changing meta. I have nothing to worry about or hard counter to face in the new army. 40K for all it's imperfections is supposed to work as an imbalanced game with the power creep slowly making things change. But then we have spikes like the Tau and Eldar with lows like the DA, CSM, and now the Nids that really manage to cement the current "OP" netlists as "OP" answers to everything.
staying out of reach of tau is difficult i will definitly agree, this is more of an option against non-tau. against tau ist about the other options i proposed
The Harpy got alot better than before, its got an extra wound, and an extra attack allowing for up to 3 smash attacks on the charge and its 10 pts cheaper. I'm happy with this.
I dont understand how you think that a skyray is a hard counter that will auto destroy us, yes its good but not "omg were dead" good
either way we all know tau are op at the moment
I play casual games, never played against a wave serpent spam or triptide or screamerstar or triplle heldrake, I do have eldar, tau, deamon and CSM opponents though, I just happen to have a cool group that will consciously choose to avoid what is know to be OP, unless we both agree to go as op as possible. and even against these I feel I could give them a good fight with the current codex.
BlaxicanX wrote: Tau and Eldar don't care about your 3+ cover save, and it's only T4 W2. A single overcharged ion accelerator blast will instant-death it and almost anything around it.
He fails to understand that its only a T4 model and only need 6 wounds on average to kill that precious Venom. We all know how hard 6 wounds is to do to a T4 model. ......
You feel you know how to beat them, but you've never actually played against them. And you are in here giving advice to people who consistently have. Advice like "beat eldar and tau by staying out of sight and reach of his guns" "give him other stuff to worry about".
I don't even feel the first one dignifies a response, the second one is... what? Give them what to worry about? Start making innuendo towards them from across the table during the course of a game? Tell them you think they may have left their head lights on? What can you give them to worry about in game that you don't want getting shot down... it's all coming out of your points.
chaos0xomega wrote: The problem is, everyone is looking at the new codex, seeing that very little changed, and thinking that because little changed in the book, little changed on the tabletop. I am pretty certain, that even though the changes were 'small', the actual end-result in gameplay will be a lot bigger than everyone realizes.
Every codex that EVER came out eliminated choice from previous issues.
old chaos . Good Plague marines , oblits and flying Demon Princes.
new chaos .Good Plague marines , oblits and flying Demons Planes.
Heh, funny, I remember when the 5th edition CSM book came out everyone bitched about how obliterators were now the worst thing ever.... I also remember everyone bitching about how they were the worst thing ever when the 6th edition book came out... hmmmm....
From what I understand , in 4th ed they were better. Not heavy but elite . So people were runing 9 of them on top of 4 heavy support units from being IW. From that point of view they did get nerfed , but I could be wrong I didn't play in 4th ed . The new 6th ed oblits got hit by the nerf bat too , can keep using the same weapons , are no longer fearless .
One could say the same about the new nids . Is the new tyrants worse then he was before , probably yes , because the best set up for him dies too fast and synaps is more important then ever before . So one either has to run him in a weaker set up to keep the army going or go gung-ho with devityrants and see them drop like flies . Although I most say that focusing on ground MC and big deathstars isn't the same since codex INQ and escalation became legal .
Ravenous D wrote: Just glancing through mine now and Im sure glad I didn't open the wraithknight because that think is crap for 300pts, I'd rather take 2 wraithlords.
besides that:
- Farseers: terrible, I rolled it out a bunch of times and sometimes got Doom fortune, the other powers just blow. I even rolled Eldrad and managed it a few times. If I cant rely on them getting good powers they are a waste of points.
-Warlocks: also terrible, seriously you cant rely on a solid battle plan with these things unless you are getting shrouding, and they cant even join wraithguard!
-Spiritseer: cheaper then I expected but otherwise good, 2 rolls on that table is better then one, still random but its better then nothing.
-Wraithguard/blades: No battle trance is a bummer, but I think having a unit of D scythes will be a combat deterrent unless your enemys want to lose half a unit on the way in. Overall happy with these guys.
-Wraithknight: Waste of points, 280pts for 3 s6 plasma cannon shots? Next.
-Jetbikes: Sweet Jesus, why are the models so bad because these things are busted.
Warpspiders: 6 + 2D6 + D6 + shoot + 2D6 move? Holy feth balls!! and they are S7 against vehicles and everything i3 and lower? Give me 30.
pizzaguardian wrote: Since it was nearly an impossible task to make the codex worse, it is better now.
But they seem to have nerfed units that didn't needed nerf.
Buff units that didn't needed buff.
Missed to fix the assault problem.
And somehow left many units hanging with no idea what to do with them. (Like banshees, i mean what are they for now?)
zephoid wrote: .... People really dont read do they. Someone stated that the cron codex was bitched about at first also. However, things like the Doom scythe and Wraiths were overlooked by many players until 6th for the doom scythe and the new wraith models for the wraiths. The eldar codex really doesnt have many "must takes" like those two models. He is pointing that out.
It's not about the "must takes" or units that are no-brainer-powerful. It's about looking at a codex and not seeing any strengths at all.
It's about bitching the whole codex is ruined and worst while completely ignoring the options that are good. And there are good options and they already have been stated here and in other topics that bloomed after codex release.
Just because it doesn't have "doom scythes" does not mean that it's "unplayable mess". It does not have to include those and at the same time not to be the worst thing ever.
JB_Man wrote: Personally, I'm finding the Eldar codex to be very one-dimensional, and possibly overpowered. Jetbikes are just too cheap, now. Running 24 GJBs was a lot, before. That was all of my troops. It barely scratches the surface, now. I'm contemplating running 54 of them, while still having plenty or room to round out my lists. Honestly, I don't want to buy 30 more jetbikes (300 bucks MORE in jetbikes? lolno.), so GW can suck it, but it seems like a very reasonable thing to do. I can't imagine running anything else when the jetbikes are sooooo nasty.
bit81 wrote: thoughts are eldar realy dont get alot for 2000pts
dont like dire avenger exarchs and most exarch since they no longer help the squad and hate that you have to buy a character in order to get pathfinders.
but thats about my only gripes with the codex that and the gaurdins still only getting a 12" range gun
apart from that its an ok codex not the most powerful codex to date (which it should be considering eldar are one of the oldest and most advance) but I do like some of the nice touches like the spinners and sheilds on the war walker and realy like the return to epic with the wave serpent being able to launch its sheild as a weapon
first games tonight with the new codex against imperial gaurd so will be vastly out numbered
Admittedly it doesn't look like the Nid Codex will be stomping all over Tau and Eldar....
But it's basically the same types or arguments all over again. Sorry it isn't what everyone was looking for and didnt live up to the BS rumors we all were believing.
I dont understand how you think that a skyray is a hard counter that will auto destroy us, yes its good but not "omg were dead" good
It's base BS4, and has the ability to get BS5 on average or if it's lucky BS4 with ignoring cover. It has Skyfire built in. It has 6 missiles with long enough range that it can easily hit large MCs from a safe distance, at S8 it wounds just about everything on a 2+, at AP3 it will ignore armor. (With ignoring cover it will deal out an average of 3.33 wounds assuming T6 and less, SMS adding an additional .29 wounds )
The point is that it's cheap as dirt and it works good against things that are way more expensive than it. When it's out of missiles, it can still marker a FMC for things like missilesides.
fartherthanfar wrote: I play casual games, never played against a wave serpent spam or triptide or screamerstar or triplle heldrake, I do have eldar, tau, deamon and CSM opponents though, I just happen to have a cool group that will consciously choose to avoid what is know to be OP, unless we both agree to go as op as possible. and even against these I feel I could give them a good fight with the current codex.
Well goody then, in that sort of environment, any Codex is "good". Unfortunately, we're talking about how the Codex stacks up against competitive or unknown opponents.
SHUPPET wrote: You feel you know how to beat them, but you've never actually played against them. And you are in here giving advice to people who consistently have. Advice like "beat eldar and tau by staying out of sight and reach of his guns" "give him other stuff to worry about".
I don't even feel the first one dignifies a response, the second one is... what? Give them what to worry about? Start making innuendo towards them from across the table during the course of a game? Tell them you think they may have left their head lights on? What can you give them to worry about in game that you don't want getting shot down... it's all coming out of your points.
Actually I am not giving you advice on how to beat tau and eldar, im giving you advice on how to use tyranids as a whole, against any army, so obviously certain armies (especially the op ones) will avoid some of these strategies. and youre going to have to find what to do depending on whats on the board.
But it's basically the same types or arguments all over again. Sorry it isn't what everyone was looking for and didnt live up to the BS rumors we all were believing.
Put your models on the table and roll some dice.
Ok , what if it realy does suck . What your saying now about the play it , test it , wait for others to find good builds etc. Happened in the 5th ed too and till nids got biomancy in 6th , there was no way to make them work in areas where 1500pts games were the norm . In US where some games were played at 2k or more nids could do well with a very good player, but good players do well with a lot of things and it surely didn't help the casual or less skilled players to get more wins with their tyranids , specialy when everyone was runing that same tervigons+hiveguard+doom etc builds .
I mean no one can claim that losing a way of deployment is good for any codex . What if sm lost drop pods ?Even if someone doesn't use them at all , it would still mean that everyone else doesn't have to worry about them being a pain in their back sides . Also for nids any mechanical change is always a big thing , because unlike my IG , they can't ally in other armies to cover their weak spots . When I had problems with melee armies , I just took 2 units of GH and a RP. A tyranid player can't do something like that .
fartherthanfar wrote: I play casual games, never played against a wave serpent spam or triptide or screamerstar or triplle heldrake, I do have eldar, tau, deamon and CSM opponents though, I just happen to have a cool group that will consciously choose to avoid what is know to be OP, unless we both agree to go as op as possible. and even against these I feel I could give them a good fight with the current codex.
Well goody then, in that sort of environment, any Codex is "good". Unfortunately, we're talking about how the Codex stacks up against competitive or unknown opponents.
ah so you mean your looking for how to make an OP Nids list, well I dont have the answer to that since the codex is too new for that, potentially we will find it. I know that nobody expected the waveserpent to be as op as it is when the eldar codex came out. maybe something in the nids codex will end up being completely awesome.
Join the game currently being played by every other army. The TauDar is the top-of-the-pile build. Nothing is a hard counter to it. It is probably the OP build.
There's always going to be 1 or 2. Previously, it's been SW or GK or Necrons. Now it's Tau and Eldar. Them's the breaks.
I am amazed at the level of unhapinness coming from some of you guys (and girls possibly). some of you really think that returning the codex to the store will change GW ways? Get your heads out of your asses and grow some balls, when life deals you a crappy hand you deal with it like a man, not like a whiny biitch. If anything im happy that this isnt a top dog codex, I would feel bad winning even more than before simply due to the table being tilted in my favor. I much prefer winning when the table is tilted against me. (by this I mean fighting a wave serpent spam or triptide or screamerstars cuz against other list that arent as optimized (in an op way) I feel im evenly matched)
how to recognize a hater: they only see the bad and focus on that, they chooses to ignore the good, if they do see it and/or mention it they add why its not enough. They can't actually accept that there is anything good in this codex cuz they want to whine, and admiting that some things got better would not satisfy them in their need to hate, biitch and moan.
Okay, first, stop insulting everyone that disagrees with you. And I've reported you.
Second, "Deal with it like a man?" Dude, its a friggin' game that we pay money for. We're consumers and if we don't like the product, we return it or send in a complaint. That's how an economy works. If we're not satisfied we can spend our money elsewhere. We're under no obligation to spend our money at GW. In fact, there is a lot of competition out there for my money. Its called "competition" and GW needs to learn that word as well. So, if GW puts out a product we're not satisfied with, why should we buy it? We shouldn't "Deal with it like a man." Dealing with a crappy product you paid a lot of money for is not what I'd call "being a man." Far from it.
Third. How to recognize an apologist. they only see the good and focus on that, they chooses to ignore the bad, if they do see it and/or mention it they add why its not enough. They can't actually accept that there is anything bad in the codex cuz they want to whine and admiting that some things got bader would not satisfy them. (it hurt to write such poor grammar, btw.)
But it's basically the same types or arguments all over again. Sorry it isn't what everyone was looking for and didnt live up to the BS rumors we all were believing.
Put your models on the table and roll some dice.
Ok , what if it realy does suck . What your saying now about the play it , test it , wait for others to find good builds etc. Happened in the 5th ed too and till nids got biomancy in 6th , there was no way to make them work in areas where 1500pts games were the norm . In US where some games were played at 2k or more nids could do well with a very good player, but good players do well with a lot of things and it surely didn't help the casual or less skilled players to get more wins with their tyranids , specialy when everyone was runing that same tervigons+hiveguard+doom etc builds .
I mean no one can claim that losing a way of deployment is good for any codex . What if sm lost drop pods ?Even if someone doesn't use them at all , it would still mean that everyone else doesn't have to worry about them being a pain in their back sides . Also for nids any mechanical change is always a big thing , because unlike my IG , they can't ally in other armies to cover their weak spots . When I had problems with melee armies , I just took 2 units of GH and a RP. A tyranid player can't do something like that .
I am not saying it is good OR bad - it SEEMS to me that it isn't an army that is going to stand up well against Tau and Eldar or Taudar. But I was just responding to the person earlier in the thread that didn't believe there was EVER negative commentary in regards to the Eldar Codex... here is more about the Tau Codex...
Yes the Nid codex may very well be underwhelming. I know it isn't what I was specifically hoping for - but I'm always amazed at what players come up with on the table. I'll be curious to see how it all shakes out in the end.
fartherthanfar wrote: I play casual games, never played against a wave serpent spam or triptide or screamerstar or triplle heldrake, I do have eldar, tau, deamon and CSM opponents though, I just happen to have a cool group that will consciously choose to avoid what is know to be OP, unless we both agree to go as op as possible. and even against these I feel I could give them a good fight with the current codex.
Well goody then, in that sort of environment, any Codex is "good". Unfortunately, we're talking about how the Codex stacks up against competitive or unknown opponents.
ah so you mean your looking for how to make an OP Nids list, well I dont have the answer to that since the codex is too new for that, potentially we will find it. I know that nobody expected the waveserpent to be as op as it is when the eldar codex came out. maybe something in the nids codex will end up being completely awesome.
No, I want to make a list that will stand an even chance of winning in a blind match up. Especially if I don't have to take Flyrant/Venomthropes/Termagaunts in every single list I write.
Also, what? Everyone knew Wave Serpents were ridiculous when the Codex came out (just maybe not to the degree it is now). I also said that Jetbikes were really good too at the time, and they're easily the 2nd best unit in that Codex.
I am amazed at the level of unhapinness coming from some of you guys (and girls possibly). some of you really think that returning the codex to the store will change GW ways? Get your heads out of your asses and grow some balls, when life deals you a crappy hand you deal with it like a man, not like a whiny biitch. If anything im happy that this isnt a top dog codex, I would feel bad winning even more than before simply due to the table being tilted in my favor. I much prefer winning when the table is tilted against me. (by this I mean fighting a wave serpent spam or triptide or screamerstars cuz against other list that arent as optimized (in an op way) I feel im evenly matched)
how to recognize a hater: they only see the bad and focus on that, they chooses to ignore the good, if they do see it and/or mention it they add why its not enough. They can't actually accept that there is anything good in this codex cuz they want to whine, and admiting that some things got better would not satisfy them in their need to hate, biitch and moan.
Okay, first, stop insulting everyone that disagrees with you. And I've reported you.
Second, "Deal with it like a man?" Dude, its a friggin' game that we pay money for. We're consumers and if we don't like the product, we return it or send in a complaint. That's how an economy works. If we're not satisfied we can spend our money elsewhere. We're under no obligation to spend our money at GW. In fact, there is a lot of competition out there for my money. Its called "competition" and GW needs to learn that word as well. So, if GW puts out a product we're not satisfied with, why should we buy it? We shouldn't "Deal with it like a man." Dealing with a crappy product you paid a lot of money for is not what I'd call "being a man." Far from it.
Third. How to recognize an apologist. they only see the good and focus on that, they chooses to ignore the bad, if they do see it and/or mention it they add why its not enough. They can't actually accept that there is anything bad in the codex cuz they want to whine and admiting that some things got bader would not satisfy them. (it hurt to write such poor grammar, btw.)
firstly I do realize I was letting myself get emotionnaly charged when writting that and for that I apologize.
second I do see the bad of the codex, please look at page 11 of this thread to see some of what i see, I fully acknowledge the other side of the situation whereas most other naysayers in this list dont do the same.
explaining what sucks is one thing focusing on it and avoiding the good is another
I was merely trying to encourage better attitude (while being a douche on that particular comment, I will admit)
once again I apologize for being a douche, I was kinda dissapointed in ppls reaction and let myself go while writing a comment.
Dakka does that to ya, I've been on that side of the coin before. Just don't sweat it too much, maybe you'll be righteously vindicated in a month when we turn out opinions around (for my own part though, I doubt it ).
I am amazed at the level of unhapinness coming from some of you guys (and girls possibly). some of you really think that returning the codex to the store will change GW ways? Get your heads out of your asses and grow some balls, when life deals you a crappy hand you deal with it like a man, not like a whiny biitch. If anything im happy that this isnt a top dog codex, I would feel bad winning even more than before simply due to the table being tilted in my favor. I much prefer winning when the table is tilted against me. (by this I mean fighting a wave serpent spam or triptide or screamerstars cuz against other list that arent as optimized (in an op way) I feel im evenly matched)
how to recognize a hater: they only see the bad and focus on that, they chooses to ignore the good, if they do see it and/or mention it they add why its not enough. They can't actually accept that there is anything good in this codex cuz they want to whine, and admiting that some things got better would not satisfy them in their need to hate, biitch and moan.
Okay, first, stop insulting everyone that disagrees with you. And I've reported you.
Second, "Deal with it like a man?" Dude, its a friggin' game that we pay money for. We're consumers and if we don't like the product, we return it or send in a complaint. That's how an economy works. If we're not satisfied we can spend our money elsewhere. We're under no obligation to spend our money at GW. In fact, there is a lot of competition out there for my money. Its called "competition" and GW needs to learn that word as well. So, if GW puts out a product we're not satisfied with, why should we buy it? We shouldn't "Deal with it like a man." Dealing with a crappy product you paid a lot of money for is not what I'd call "being a man." Far from it.
Third. How to recognize an apologist. they only see the good and focus on that, they chooses to ignore the bad, if they do see it and/or mention it they add why its not enough. They can't actually accept that there is anything bad in the codex cuz they want to whine and admiting that some things got bader would not satisfy them. (it hurt to write such poor grammar, btw.)
firstly I do realize I was letting myself get emotionnaly charged when writting that and for that I apologize.
second I do see the bad of the codex, please look at page 11 of this thread to see some of what i see, I fully acknowledge the other side of the situation whereas most other naysayers in this list dont do the same.
explaining what sucks is one thing focusing on it and avoiding the good is another
I was merely trying to encourage better attitude (while being a douche on that particular comment, I will admit)
once again I apologize for being a douche, I was kinda dissapointed in ppls reaction and let myself go while writing a comment.
I, for one, feel your apology very acceptable.
YEs, we all wish that the codex was good, and it is understandable to become emotionally engaged about somE thing you can spend thousands of dollars on.
But, in all honesty, re-reading your post(s), It seems you may be in denial of how bad the situation is, where as before we had the tervi-spam mono-build, we now have the swarm+synapse oh-by1-the-way-your-monster-died-so-you-lose-list.
Yes the Nid codex may very well be underwhelming. I know it isn't what I was specifically hoping for - but I'm always amazed at what players come up with on the table. I'll be curious to see how it all shakes out in the end.
But both tau and eldar became realy good only with ally.. Mono tau and mono eldar aren't as good . Separate units or combinations are ok , but when people said that farseers suck they were right . Comparing to the old seers they did. Old seers worked without the baron . The new seers were kind of a bad without the baron and with him they shot in to the stratosphere. Mono tau were ok against some armies specialy against people with bad lists , but it was when they got their hands on new eldar and farsight ally when they realy became good.
And because of how important synaps is now a lot of stuff is retro nerfed. The devityrant is the best tyrant in a void . But against a lot of armies if he tries to be this shoty platform he is dead and dead synaps is not worth a better devityrant, unless he starts spiting out D templates. w40k is not a Ld using game . Sure there are tests , to which half the armies are immune , and there are psychic powers . But no army other then nids falls apart because one MC , which you can't hide , dies . And am talking about core rules here , non of the escalation D weapons stuff being used by people , FW adding more flyer and anti flyer options etc. And we are suppose to use this stuff right ? That is what w40k approved stamp is for right ?
Or are nids suppose to play only against core rules armies . Right now synaps is a bit like old necron phase out . kill X models and the army stops working how it suppose to . Sure there is gimiks in forms of SotW/ResProtocols, but all in all any good player will know that after X models dead they will be in a favorable position and no tactics or list building skill can help the other player from them doing it .
I for example see the good. Nids didn't start talking, doing politics and motivational pre battle speeches. New models fit the look of the army which is still incredibly menacing, assuming it's not GW painting it as Hive Fleet Leviathan. Mawlocks might provide some teeth gnashing assuming a good matchup, Carnifexes make sense, Pyrovore nuke might be fun until FAQed, synapse does not outright kill you, warriors did not go up in price etc. It's all kind of piece of bread in concentration camp good though.
I'm not even returning my codex (shiny), still it is so obviously flawed that it makes my head hurt. I'd love to see tables they playtested it on because the only somehow logic explanation is a lot of big LoS blocking terrain pieces.
fartherthanfar wrote: I play casual games, never played against a wave serpent spam or triptide or screamerstar or triplle heldrake, I do have eldar, tau, deamon and CSM opponents though, I just happen to have a cool group that will consciously choose to avoid what is know to be OP, unless we both agree to go as op as possible. and even against these I feel I could give them a good fight with the current codex.
Well goody then, in that sort of environment, any Codex is "good". Unfortunately, we're talking about how the Codex stacks up against competitive or unknown opponents.
ah so you mean your looking for how to make an OP Nids list, well I dont have the answer to that since the codex is too new for that, potentially we will find it. I know that nobody expected the waveserpent to be as op as it is when the eldar codex came out. maybe something in the nids codex will end up being completely awesome.
No, I want to make a list that will stand an even chance of winning in a blind match up. Especially if I don't have to take Flyrant/Venomthropes/Termagaunts in every single list I write.
Also, what? Everyone knew Wave Serpents were ridiculous when the Codex came out (just maybe not to the degree it is now). I also said that Jetbikes were really good too at the time, and they're easily the 2nd best unit in that Codex.
so you want to have an even chance of winning against a blind match up against potentially an op list like wave serpent spam or triptide, so to have an even chance against those you need to be as strong as them so you want to be op like them
Ravenous D wrote: Just glancing through mine now and Im sure glad I didn't open the wraithknight because that think is crap for 300pts, I'd rather take 2 wraithlords.
besides that:
- Farseers: terrible, I rolled it out a bunch of times and sometimes got Doom fortune, the other powers just blow. I even rolled Eldrad and managed it a few times. If I cant rely on them getting good powers they are a waste of points.
-Warlocks: also terrible, seriously you cant rely on a solid battle plan with these things unless you are getting shrouding, and they cant even join wraithguard!
-Spiritseer: cheaper then I expected but otherwise good, 2 rolls on that table is better then one, still random but its better then nothing.
-Wraithguard/blades: No battle trance is a bummer, but I think having a unit of D scythes will be a combat deterrent unless your enemys want to lose half a unit on the way in. Overall happy with these guys.
-Wraithknight: Waste of points, 280pts for 3 s6 plasma cannon shots? Next.
-Jetbikes: Sweet Jesus, why are the models so bad because these things are busted.
Warpspiders: 6 + 2D6 + D6 + shoot + 2D6 move? Holy feth balls!! and they are S7 against vehicles and everything i3 and lower? Give me 30.
.
Yes because this summary is as scoulding as what I think of Nids. Me disliking random and loving some other units. Plus I wasn't wrong.
regular Flyrant is 30 pts cheaper (30!!!!!) got Bs4 and can now cast 2 spells per turn (lost biomancy but still a clear buff on our best unit from last edition)
crones are good and harpys cost 10pts less and get +1w and +1 att (awesome, now we got ourselves a real airforce)
I think you are grossly overestimating Flyrants. So, you think that +1 BS (as if that's even a great deal when everyone in their dog is running 2x TLdevs) and the chance to cast 2 powers from one of the worst psychic tables balances out the loss of biomancy. Okay... Changes to synapse mean that the HT is under a massive strain. 4 wounds is not a big deal and when he gets taken out your army will suffer. You seem to think that buffing the offensive potential at the sake of it's durability is a net positive. I think you are straight up wrong.
Crones and Harpies are mediocre at best. Actually, the harpy is pretty bad. On paper, crones look "ok", but they are not great at their role: AA. Defensively, they simply do not have what it take to survive. Opponent's AA will not have difficulty eliminating them (right after HT's) and their output in the meantime is mediocre.
Now, if I remember correctly you used to have a quote sigged that in your mind 40k should be a game where all options within a codex should be worth taking. To me, the absence of that sig and your current defense of the tyranid codex make your position suspect and somewhat hypocritical.
Tyranids do not have the tools to complete in a competitive or semi-competitive environment. This is my scale:
At 2k:
I play in a 0 riptide environment.
I play in a 1 riptide environment.
I play in a 2 riptide environment.
I play in a 3 riptide environment.
I play in a 4 riptide environment.
I play in a 4+ riptide environment.
If you play in a 0 to 1 riptide meta, good luck/have fun; you are gaming against people who have fun rolling cubes and your tyranids can compete. I play in a 2 riptide meta (semi-competitive) and tyranids are sub-par.
i will not judge yet as people said every new dex is gak even tau when they first got released was called worse. people saying riptides were alright nothing special and same as the USR but we alln now ow hard it is to charge a tau gunline give it a month and i bet there will be some good lists hat will do well.
i collect tau but i cant wait to get some nids once i finished painting my tau up whats left
kyle foster wrote: i will not judge yet as people said every new dex is gak even tau when they first got released was called worse. people saying riptides were alright nothing special and same as the USR but we alln now ow hard it is to charge a tau gunline give it a month and i bet there will be some good lists hat will do well.
i collect tau but i cant wait to get some nids once i finished painting my tau up whats left
Alternatively, you can look at the codex yourself and form your own opinions. People's opinions now, people's opinions later... it's all the same. Use your grey matter and decide for yourself.
I've watched a couple batreps on youtube and I don't dispute some of the issues with synapse creatures being somewhat fragile and easy to disarm. But what I was struck by with how they were blitzing a single flyrant and crone inside the opponents zone of control game after game. Yet they acted shocked when those two models were brought down by the combined firepower of the entire opposing army. No matter how tough an individual model is if you allow the entire enemy force to concentrate on it for 1-2 full shooting phase yes that model should die.
It's a bad move to go rushing in with two units that compose 25% of your force with no other supporting units that would force the opponent to split fire between multiple targets.
I think it'd meet in much better results in if the flyrant and crone were held off until other units were in range to be a threat, that way the opponent would be able to mass fire on those units as easily. They've been basically offering their armies up piecemeal to their opponent which contributes to their losses. Not saying that Tyranids are godly, just that the playstyle being used is not granting any favors towards winning.
A Trygon/Mawloc hitting their aegis battery or skyfire units would also go a long way to keeping their lynchpins airborne.
New nids batrep by frontline gaming incase you hadnt seen it, this really reinforces the amount of stupid the nids codex is (its nids vs orks and I'm sure you can guess the outcome)
Personally I feel that the nids dex has necron syndrome, where you literally need certain units to play the game (no synapse, no army unless you spam stealers) like necron phase out where if they lose x amount of warriors they lose their army so it makes the player feel like they have to play two games at once (the missions and then play keep away with rheir synapse units so they can keep doing the mission). There was a reason crons lost phase out in the new dex because it was a terrible idea and severely handicaps armies and does not allow them to preform at full potential, especially with the new nid dex where a few of your heavy hitters are synapse like the flyrant so it has to be babysat and protected like a house of cards at a frat party.
The sad part about games like this is that it becomes less and less about playing what you LIKE to play, and more about playing to either Beat the other guy senseless, or play using the most OP things you have.
I myself have an Eldar player in my primary group, and he constantly brags about his ID weapons, tough 8 giant model, and constant use of invulnerable saves so even his standard use models could take a full brood of carnifex beating their face in if he gets lucky.
What gets me the most about this codex.... 90% of the real "improvements" are in the Heavy slots. Every other slot either has changes that even out, stat reductions or ability adjustments that coincide with a slight points decrease or a points increase in the HQ slots. Troops are evened out completely due to decreases in cost but increases in upgrades. Elites saw some points decreases or small increases, while seeing unecessary changes/nerfs. The venomthrope was the best treated there because even though its "shrouded" is now MODELS within 6 inches instead of UNITS, it is shrouded instead of a 5+ cover which is far better. Hive guard had noooooo reason to go up in cost, even when fixing their main gun, also the sub gun is totally NOT worth 5 points unless your fighting guard running multi tank spam. Fast attacks are... interesting, shrikes are cheaper but again, some costs went up, goyles are more costly, but the saddest is the FMC's, they themselves have no extra durability so since everyone Except Tyranids gets decent skyfire they are prone to get shot off, though the flyrant has the best survivability.
The heavy slot saw massive improvements in pure points cost, the ONLY heavy not to see some kind of improvement via stats and/or cost are the Trygon and prime. There is SOME potential... but without higher toughness, Eternal warrior, FNP, or invulnerable saves we are stuck relying on that stealth upgrade to Venomthropes to protect our more important units. Like I can imagine a group of hive guard plopped center field in some terrain for cover to give them that 3+cover save and pray they can out shoot whatever is going to dodge their cover save before it hits them. We do still have FNP if we manage to roll the power, and that power did get a HUGE buff thankfully. But with the change to how Synapse works, and all of our protection being on the Venomthrope there aren't going to BE many models that are going to be a bigger target without some way to port them across the field.
I do however look forward to deep striking a trygon prime with the Reaper of Obliterax to scare them into targetting it, they may have lost their scything talons but at least the prime can make up for it with the artefact even if it's FAR overpriced... but on a trygon prime I think it will be very interesting.
Overall I'm dissapointed, but I won't be returning my codex, and I will be keeping on buying models to MAKE something work somehow.
kirsanth wrote: So the response to specific critiques is glittering generalities?
That's been the story the whole way through. No one has even attempted to refute the specific and detailed criticisms of this book, responding only with general nonsense statements like "We don't know yet!" and "But the prices have gone down", as if those two things hold any meaning.
kirsanth wrote: Next up, the complainers are not "strategic generals" and are "stuck in the previous codex" right?
Followed no doubt by the best one of all: Use tactics!
kirsanth wrote: So the response to specific critiques is glittering generalities?
That's been the story the whole way through. No one has even attempted to rebut the specific and detailed criticisms of this book, responding only with general nonsense statements like "We don't know yet!" and "But the prices have gone down", as if those two things hold any meaning.
kirsanth wrote: Next up, the complainers are not "strategic generals" and are "stuck in the previous codex" right?
Followed no doubt by the best one of all: Use tactics!
OF COURSE!!! Tactics will make our rippers better! Those 3 points were a to balance out their hidden powers!!! What hidden powers you ask? Well I cant tell you since I havent found them out but my rumour guy says that to unlock it you have to beat the campaign on max difficulty with no damage taken and no resets
A GumyBear wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzkYbJj4-Ns&feature=youtube_gdata_player
New nids batrep by frontline gaming incase you hadnt seen it, this really reinforces the amount of stupid the nids codex is (its nids vs orks and I'm sure you can guess the outcome)
That's actually one of the videos I'd been thinking of when I made my comment, in their games the flyrant and crone has been front and center leading the charge while the rest of the army is playing catch up. They are amazing at reaching the rear of the field but I think maybe they are dropping that bomb a turn to soon and they'd also benefit with a second crone as it'd bring a bit more force to the rear at the same time. Right now he's splitting his forces into two smaller ones in effect, the fliers try and immediately harass but quickly die as they don't have quite enough punch but die while the rest of the army advances and get shot at the next turn. If there was a second flier it or rear striker it'd raise their threat level.
Not sure if it'd be enough to get around the other units being synapse f-ed but it'd be worth trying IMO.
SHUPPET wrote: You feel you know how to beat them, but you've never actually played against them. And you are in here giving advice to people who consistently have. Advice like "beat eldar and tau by staying out of sight and reach of his guns" "give him other stuff to worry about".
I don't even feel the first one dignifies a response, the second one is... what? Give them what to worry about? Start making innuendo towards them from across the table during the course of a game? Tell them you think they may have left their head lights on? What can you give them to worry about in game that you don't want getting shot down... it's all coming out of your points.
Actually I am not giving you advice on how to beat tau and eldar, im giving you advice on how to use tyranids as a whole, against any army, so obviously certain armies (especially the op ones) will avoid some of these strategies. and youre going to have to find what to do depending on whats on the board.
Well your post says "Tau & Eldar are a strong codex, so I don't expect to have an easy time beating them, but there are some things we can do -" and then you proceeded the list the things I mentioned in my post. There's not many ways to claim that what you said wasn't intended to be advice about beating Tau and Eldar. A subject which, by your own admittance, you are completely inexperienced in.
A GumyBear wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzkYbJj4-Ns&feature=youtube_gdata_player
New nids batrep by frontline gaming incase you hadnt seen it, this really reinforces the amount of stupid the nids codex is (its nids vs orks and I'm sure you can guess the outcome)
That's actually one of the videos I'd been thinking of when I made my comment, in their games the flyrant and crone has been front and center leading the charge while the rest of the army is playing catch up. They are amazing at reaching the rear of the field but I think maybe they are dropping that bomb a turn to soon and they'd also benefit with a second crone as it'd bring a bit more force to the rear at the same time. Right now he's splitting his forces into two smaller ones in effect, the fliers try and immediately harass but quickly die as they don't have quite enough punch but die while the rest of the army advances and get shot at the next turn. If there was a second flier it or rear striker it'd raise their threat level.
Not sure if it'd be enough to get around the other units being synapse f-ed but it'd be worth trying IMO.
Well currently alot of stuff is worth trying since the nids are deperate to be even playable against opponents even in friendly games (your opponent shouldnt have to try to lose so you can score a win they should be able to use tactics and kill the important stuff like everyone else).
While I do agree that he should have taken more of an air presence if he was gonan go that route, he didnt really have the option of holding thenback while the rest of his army plays catchup due to the nid flyers being so squishy where they can barely weather a quad gun and even then they sometimes go poof, flyrants on the other hand are still good but are easilly out matched by any real AA like the devastion a dakkajet or some NS can pull off, if he still had BRB powers then I would think he would be fine and could hold his own but as of right now hes a joke conpared to other air units.
I have been thinking of reliable ways to keep synapse and I was thinking of either a prime with crown in a blob of dakka carnies or a tyrant doing the same thing but with guard. Its expensive but it could reliably keep most of an army within synapse (24" for the tyrant if it takes the primaris and crown, 18" for the prime since I'm pretty sure he isn't a psyker) hpwever it would be a pretty expensive deathstar that could go down to focus fire, I thought about taking an adl and deploying it max range then use venoms to toss out 2+ cover to everyone but everyone and their mom has ignores cover so that may not work either.
Something I'm considering is if you use the Trygon for it's tunnel, based on the huge 6" size which is just enough to position a unit of warriors around the Trygon's base. (that also bring extra synapse)
Granted people seem to run warrior light, but it's a way to get some firepower up the table long enough to shoot and a full size squad of warriors is a fair amount of shots. It's nowhere as good as the old spore list but it may be an option over footslogging the whole way, combined with fliers overhead it might speed up enough of the force to be worthwhile.
Admittedly it doesn't look like the Nid Codex will be stomping all over Tau and Eldar....
But it's basically the same types or arguments all over again. Sorry it isn't what everyone was looking for and didnt live up to the BS rumors we all were believing.
Put your models on the table and roll some dice.
And here is a thread for you good sir, that rather than taking out specific posts from an opinion that was well below the majority, has instead counted and compiled the amount of positive and negative responses towards the eldar dex, and compared it to the the same thread for Tyranids.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/573445.page I would suggest having a read of this before inciting comparisons to the eldar release. It does kind of prove the whole "selective memory when it suits my point of view" statement that nid players have been using against people like you running to past releases as a way to combat the complaints about this dex.
Place a unit of warriors and/or a dakkafex in reserve, hope I get the tunnel up before they arrive. It's not reliable as it depends on the trygon popping up first.
It'd devote a lot towards this strategy but running a pair of trygons could in theory have you deploying and shooting in their rear zone 2nd turn with back up arriving 3rd turn which is a full turn ahead of footslogging and prevents you from being hit by long range fire on the way in. May not prove to be viable but it might be worth experimenting with. The 6 inch foot print is larger enough to squeeze another MC out of, or a tyrant and his guard.
DS the trygon do his shooting if he survives and is alone with no synapse you can pop warriors out the following turn which gets him out of his IB funk and moving.
It'd be weird/dumb but if the crones or harpies left the table for some reason (into ongoing reserves) they could come back via the tunnel? I have no idea if there's any practical application for that though.
The crone/harpy out of the tunnel trick could be used for vector striking I guess or get to the other side of the board safely since they are SUPER squishy for an FMC
And if it doesn't work, you've got 270 points (minimum) of Warriors in your backfield doing nothing. Or, alternatively, they arrive exactly where you want them, shoot something and... then what? Besides die next turn, that is.
I am just unwilling to bank on the "roll +3 on first model, under 3 on second roll, next turn roll +3 on same model" strategy. Second turn if you don't get a trygon or you do get the Warriors, you're now behind instead.
Few comments having used the new codex in 2 matches now:
Gotta have that mid range synapse...
Zoans are literally the BEST synapse unit in the codex now, being the only unit to come with an invul save and 2 wounds a piece makes 3 the ideal midfield synapse unit. Need to reread their rules as far as coming stock with warp blast, but I believe you can sub that power out for dominion after rolling for their second power...could be wrong, but I don't remember seeing any restriction to subbing out that power for the primaris.
This still only gives them a 1 of 5 chance to grab catalyst, but every other power(other than the nova save for extreme circumstances) works quite well with them. Paroxysm is awesome for shutting down High fire power low model units like broadsides, wraithknights and riptides. It is close to the best defence against the ranged ID attacks from wraithknights. They are also the only real unit where dominion works well to keep the majority of the army in synapse.
Offensively, the warp blast is quite good, sad if you fail the one and only LD test, but three BS4 lance shots wrecks vehicles and 3 S5 ap3 blasts levels marines.
use 2 units of these, never looked back.
I also use two tyrannofexes stock, still trying to decide if regen is worth it (I am leaning towards no), but 175 points for these guys is a steal. Manage to get either catalyst, onslaught or both on these guys and man oh man do they level infantry. I used them in the last book with acid spray, and used to use them with dessicator larvae, but I have recently been trying shreddershard as rending with shred is pretty great.
Still on the fence with hive guard... point increase and reduced BS really hurt them... but gaining pure "ignores cover" is damn good against skimmers.
devilgaunts are still good and cheaper! Hurray!
Having so much trouble justifying venomthropes... army-wide shrouded is very nice indeed, but as you guys are well aware of, there is just SO much ignores cover in the top armies these days, and unless completely blocked from line of sight against (or really just F'ed against smart missiles) these guys will never last more than a turn without a prime attached.
Anyways, just some thoughts...
Jeebus that was a longer post than planned, sorry about that!
Tyranids
Hive tyrant x 1
Mawloc
16 x turmagaunts
15 x hormagaunts
Rippers x 5: tunnel swarm.
3 x warriors.
1 x carnifex
7 x genestealers
Chaos
12 x cultists
10 x cultists
daemon prince
Helbrute (I've lost my DV stats sheet so we used it as a chaos dread.)
5 x terminators
10 x marines.
chaos lord
Well, the mawloc killed eight cultist on turn one, then was assaulted by the daemon prince. The daemon prince took three turns to kill it, wit the help of the lord, mawloc did two wounds back.
Rippers deep strike and daemon prince assaults them.
Genestealers outflanked and assaulted by terminators, after a few turns, two stealers are left and all terminators dead.
Genestealers assault the last four cultists, one more stealer dies, all cultists dead. The chaos lord kills the last stealer. Daemon prince assaults carnifex and KILLS IT IN ONE TURN! But, the daemon prince gets assaulted and killed by the hive tyrant.
Helbrute does one wound to the hive tyrant (multi melta) and the gaunts and cultists shoot each other, with most hormagaunts now dead and only two cultists left. Tyrant assaults helbrute, and wrecks it.
Tyrant kills lord.
Now all that's left is
Hive tyrant, 2 horms, 8 turms, 3 warriors,
2 cultists, 10 space marineS.
By the end of next turn I win.
Okso.
Rippers losing a wound has really hurt them, they now last only a fraction of what they used to.
Mawloc was good ( was my first turn using him).
Gaunts were meh.
Carnifex was piss poor, didn't kill anything, although daemon prince did have power sword.
Tyrant was really good, I dint use any psychic powers.
Genestealers did good, although I was lucky with where he put the terminators.
Warriors were meh.
Wow, the fur on end in this post is almost too much to be believed. I have to say that OP codexes are really not going to make the game any fun to play. I am glad this codex is not broken, and it is not OP. In my neck of the woods, games are being won by Smurfs, crazy right. I have seen screamer stars go down, I have seen riptide/battle suit spam lose, and I have seen guard mech take no prize at all. But that is only in a 18 player RTT. The big GTs are totally different. Now, how many of those GTs are there and how often? LVO and BOA are once a year? Say what you want, but those are not really the norm. Again, I can only speak to my back yard. In these parts the player is really the deciding factor. It is not like the old 4th ed days where Necrons brought grieve and Eldar Psyker powers were OP.
I really wish the next codexes are more like this one. I hope people can start playing the game and leaving the arm chair quarterbacking to professional sports. I just ran a game with 3 Harpies, 3 Tervigons, 3 thirty Termigaunts, and a prime in a warrior unit. I was able to jump out turn one and smoke a raider, TLHVC are good, but at 5s to glance, I got lucky. I was hit hard in return, but regen really saved me and again, I was lucky. The wave on wave of haunts was really too bunch for his infantry so in the end, having MCs sitting in cover on objectives was a winner. So my take is to be a bug, run at his prize unit turn one and do as much as you can. The shadow of the warp makes most armies that rely on powers less of a threat.
Ok, the game was a blast, for both sides. My feeling is that 'nids are are not going to be showing up in big numbers any time soon. People want easy builds and they just don't exist. People say the FMC are squishy and they are. I got an extra turn with regen and luck, things I don't reccomend a player rely on. I was fine with synapse, but I play Orcs and Goblins so I am use to funny units doing funny things. I don't think the talk of reserving is anything but crazy, maybe one trigon, but waiting for half your big heavies to show is crazy talk IMHO.
I plan on playing a real combined arms list next. So, one Tervigon, one 30 Termigaunt unit, one harpy, one croon, a HGuard unit, a Flyrant, some genestealers in outflank, a venomtrope, and some carnifexes with whatever points I have left over. I think there might be something in that, but I will post my idea after it has been tested, that way no one can say I was blowing smoke.
I will say this too, making this game balanced when it is this complex is near impossible. I have been playing since 4th and in my area, it has seemed to be the most balanced yet. That has no hard evidence, it is just a feeling. I really hope people start playing the bugs and telling us what they got out of it.
You know, the only thing that I feel that is 100% perfect in the new codex is the Fall of Shadowbrink, it is just excellent to have Chaos Daemons vs Tyranids battle and see how those 2 races have a WTF moment when meeting the other.
A GumyBear wrote: Both of those lists seem horridly unoptimized and the csm list was even worse than the nids list
Also forgot about hit and running out of combat with the mawloc.
Used the Mawloc on cultists instead of ANYTHING ELSE.
Who charges genestealers with ANYTHING?
Can the Mawloc not smash at S10? I don't understand how it did two wounds to between a chaos lord and a Deamon prince without instant killing either of them.
A GumyBear wrote: Both of those lists seem horridly unoptimized and the csm list was even worse than the nids list
Also forgot about hit and running out of combat with the mawloc.
Used the Mawloc on cultists instead of ANYTHING ELSE.
Who charges genestealers with ANYTHING?
OMG, low level play makes my brain hurt.
Mawloc has hit and run?
Fuuu.....
I wanted to see what the mawloc would do in close combat as again, it was my first time using it.
We buy what looks cool, half his cultists were LOTR orks.
He didn't know about rending, he's more in the hobby for modelling than anything else.
A GumyBear wrote: Both of those lists seem horridly unoptimized and the csm list was even worse than the nids list
Also forgot about hit and running out of combat with the mawloc.
Used the Mawloc on cultists instead of ANYTHING ELSE.
Who charges genestealers with ANYTHING?
OMG, low level play makes my brain hurt.
Well I personally appreciate the input from a casual gamer's perspective, it's interesting to know where a large portion of the community may stand.
Also, why be so arrogant and rude. No call for it.
He's not wrong though. Even non-competitive players such as myself find the idea of non-cohesive "bitsy" lists full of randomly selected units frustrating.
badkamer1 wrote: Why is nobody mentioning the fact that "The doom of Malan'tai" has been scrapped from this dex?
It's been mentioned quite a bit. Sadly the response is always the same:
"Anyone who took it is just a WAAC power-gamer!"
Seems having a real discussion about the legitimate failings of this book is quite a difficult thing given all the inane attempts to defend it. "Wait and see". "Stop whining". "Use Tactics!".
BlaxicanX wrote: Why is the tenteclid a "terrifying prospect for flyers"? They pen on a 6 and Crones are BS3 to boot. You'll be taking less than one hullpoint off a flyer per turn on average without vector striking.
- - - - - -
The best bright spot I see for 'nids is the big middle finger they give to psychic deathstars. Deathleaper+Shadow in the Warp equals a leadership 5 psyker on average (4 for a perfect roll on the d3).
First, tentaclids are 360 degrees. Getting behind the flyers isn't unlikely. Second its str 5, not just haywire. And of course I see no reason not to vector strike thus saving tentaclids for other targets if need be. The tentaclids can glance or penetrate two times each, potentially. Thats pretty good. I'd take a pair, myself.
Cool , only your crones are huge models and are getting battered from turn 1 on by opponents skyfire units and they will be the first on the table so flyers will get a round of shoting on them first. the only thing they counter "good" is other FMC
A GumyBear wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzkYbJj4-Ns&feature=youtube_gdata_player
New nids batrep by frontline gaming incase you hadnt seen it, this really reinforces the amount of stupid the nids codex is (its nids vs orks and I'm sure you can guess the outcome)
That's actually one of the videos I'd been thinking of when I made my comment, in their games the flyrant and crone has been front and center leading the charge while the rest of the army is playing catch up. They are amazing at reaching the rear of the field but I think maybe they are dropping that bomb a turn to soon and they'd also benefit with a second crone as it'd bring a bit more force to the rear at the same time. Right now he's splitting his forces into two smaller ones in effect, the fliers try and immediately harass but quickly die as they don't have quite enough punch but die while the rest of the army advances and get shot at the next turn. If there was a second flier it or rear striker it'd raise their threat level.
Not sure if it'd be enough to get around the other units being synapse f-ed but it'd be worth trying IMO.
This is so true. It was an unfocused 'nids list vs a fairly efficient Ork list (he ran Trukks, it was otherwise optimised). Having Swarmy meander up the board while the flyrant did all the heavy lifting was silly; it might show us that Swarmy isn't very good, but I wouldn't have run him with no support whatsoever, even on the old Codex.
Getting one flyrant in an enemy's face without support was never a winning move; you could get away with it if you an Iron Arm in the past. I think these days if you run one, you need to run two; we'll be running two flyrants, two crones, gargoyles and a Mawloc. Granted, it's still an uphill struggle; in the old days, with Hive Commander and Spores, we could unleash two carnifexes and the doom at the same time the flyrant hit and one tervigon outflanked. Losing that plus one to reserve rolls is another massive pain.
A GumyBear wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzkYbJj4-Ns&feature=youtube_gdata_player
New nids batrep by frontline gaming incase you hadnt seen it, this really reinforces the amount of stupid the nids codex is (its nids vs orks and I'm sure you can guess the outcome)
That's actually one of the videos I'd been thinking of when I made my comment, in their games the flyrant and crone has been front and center leading the charge while the rest of the army is playing catch up. They are amazing at reaching the rear of the field but I think maybe they are dropping that bomb a turn to soon and they'd also benefit with a second crone as it'd bring a bit more force to the rear at the same time. Right now he's splitting his forces into two smaller ones in effect, the fliers try and immediately harass but quickly die as they don't have quite enough punch but die while the rest of the army advances and get shot at the next turn. If there was a second flier it or rear striker it'd raise their threat level.
Not sure if it'd be enough to get around the other units being synapse f-ed but it'd be worth trying IMO.
This is so true. It was an unfocused 'nids list vs a fairly efficient Ork list (he ran Trukks, it was otherwise optimised). Having Swarmy meander up the board while the flyrant did all the heavy lifting was silly; it might show us that Swarmy isn't very good, but I wouldn't have run him with no support whatsoever, even on the old Codex.
Getting one flyrant in an enemy's face without support was never a winning move; you could get away with it if you an Iron Arm in the past. I think these days if you run one, you need to run two; we'll be running two flyrants, two crones, gargoyles and a Mawloc. Granted, it's still an uphill struggle; in the old days, with Hive Commander and Spores, we could unleash two carnifexes and the doom at the same time the flyrant hit and one tervigon outflanked. Losing that plus one to reserve rolls is another massive pain.
Yeah, I also noticed he had his gaunts behind the zoanthropes and the swarmy. That doesn't look right.
H.B.M.C. wrote: He's not wrong though. Even non-competitive players such as myself find the idea of non-cohesive "bitsy" lists full of randomly selected units frustrating.
He may not be wrong that it gives him a headache but he is wrong to deride someone for how they choose to play the game.
You can't complain you find their way of playing frustrating while also suggesting people shouldn't complain about WAAC/tourney play without it edging toward hypocrisy...
Now, my thoughts on the dex (From the point of view of a fairly casual meta with very diverse armies):
It's okay, I think it's about where it was before. We lost out in some areas (Biomancy, how I'll miss you) but gained in others in terms of points drops. I like the fluff for the psi powers as since the Nids are from outside the galaxy why would they share powers with the natives.
Fluff wise I also like the new IB, all the Nid stories have the death of synapse breaking the swarm and in previous editions this wasn't true, now it really will break you.
100 gaunts for 400-500pts as well as the cut price Carnifex broods let you really thicken out your numbers and create a real horde feel.
I don't think I'll ever understand the huge points increase on Primes but hey, you take the good with the bad. Personally I look forward to driving my horde forward with a regenning Dakkatyrant with 3 guards, losing Old adversary is a shame but will will adapt and consume.
I'm still having fun with the game and this codex won't change that, in fact I think I shall enjoy the next few months/year more as I try out all the new combinations I dream up.
I used to enjoy a more competitive environ though I no longer do so I will say this in regards to it:
Clearly the GW writers are not writing 40k as a competitive ruleset, by design or lack of skill (I'm not touching which it is with a 10ft pole), if that's what you want it would seem you want something different to the writers. At some point you will need to decide whether you wish to continue in the hobby because after all it should be bringing you fun and entertainment, if it isn't doing that maybe it's time to cut your losses and move on.
No game is ever completely balanced, there is always a top list/build/playstyle in no holds barred competition, currently that's Tau-dar/Eld-Au. If you dislike GW's direction vote with your wallet and feet or houserule it.
Now I say this with all due respect, this is not a "Suck it up or GTFO" post, but if you aren't having fun you need to act, either to houserule, sell up or change your expectations.
Tyran wrote: You know, the only thing that I feel that is 100% perfect in the new codex is the Fall of Shadowbrink, it is just excellent to have Chaos Daemons vs Tyranids battle and see how those 2 races have a WTF moment when meeting the other.
Really enjoyed that myself. Loved the conclusion that powers in the warp are plotting revenge. Oddly enough chaos might save the imperium.
H.B.M.C. wrote: He's not wrong though. Even non-competitive players such as myself find the idea of non-cohesive "bitsy" lists full of randomly selected units frustrating.
He may not be wrong that it gives him a headache but he is wrong to deride someone for how they choose to play the game.
You can't complain you find their way of playing frustrating while also suggesting people shouldn't complain about WAAC/tourney play without it edging toward hypocrisy...
I agree, it's very elitist, why can't he have his opinion? Also, there is a difference between non-competitive and casual - tbh it was actually one of the more interesting posts I read, whether he played the units the correct way or not. I more or less know exactly how the new units are going to play out competitively, I can work that out by reading them. I am curious how this release affects a casual player, because like it or not the bulk of the people buying the models fit into the category of either casual players or modellers, and I'm glad the opinions outside the competitive scene are also negative meaning that hopefully almost everyone shares the correct opinion that this release is gak, thus more books & models globally being returned / not bought, by possibly the bulk of the customer base which means far more than any amount of opinions posted on dakkadakka.com forum by angry high level players. Plus, every competitive player has an opinion and he thinks his is the right one (incl myself). It was very nice for me to be able to hear of how a random list of models built from the new nid dex performed for him, no its not at all relevant to the competitive scene, idgaf. Shooting down such opinions with "WOW LOW LEVEL PLAY MY HEAD HURTS BECAUSE OF HOW BAD YOU ARE" is such arrogant bs, if you don't care about the post just ignore it.
sgtpjbarker wrote: Wow, the fur on end in this post is almost too much to be believed. I have to say that OP codexes are really not going to make the game any fun to play. I am glad this codex is not broken, and it is not OP. In my neck of the woods, games are being won by Smurfs, crazy right. I have seen screamer stars go down, I have seen riptide/battle suit spam lose, and I have seen guard mech take no prize at all. But that is only in a 18 player RTT. The big GTs are totally different. Now, how many of those GTs are there and how often? LVO and BOA are once a year? Say what you want, but those are not really the norm. Again, I can only speak to my back yard. In these parts the player is really the deciding factor. It is not like the old 4th ed days where Necrons brought grieve and Eldar Psyker powers were OP.
I really wish the next codexes are more like this one. I hope people can start playing the game and leaving the arm chair quarterbacking to professional sports. I just ran a game with 3 Harpies, 3 Tervigons, 3 thirty Termigaunts, and a prime in a warrior unit. I was able to jump out turn one and smoke a raider, TLHVC are good, but at 5s to glance, I got lucky. I was hit hard in return, but regen really saved me and again, I was lucky. The wave on wave of haunts was really too bunch for his infantry so in the end, having MCs sitting in cover on objectives was a winner. So my take is to be a bug, run at his prize unit turn one and do as much as you can. The shadow of the warp makes most armies that rely on powers less of a threat.
Ok, the game was a blast, for both sides. My feeling is that 'nids are are not going to be showing up in big numbers any time soon. People want easy builds and they just don't exist. People say the FMC are squishy and they are. I got an extra turn with regen and luck, things I don't reccomend a player rely on. I was fine with synapse, but I play Orcs and Goblins so I am use to funny units doing funny things. I don't think the talk of reserving is anything but crazy, maybe one trigon, but waiting for half your big heavies to show is crazy talk IMHO.
I plan on playing a real combined arms list next. So, one Tervigon, one 30 Termigaunt unit, one harpy, one croon, a HGuard unit, a Flyrant, some genestealers in outflank, a venomtrope, and some carnifexes with whatever points I have left over. I think there might be something in that, but I will post my idea after it has been tested, that way no one can say I was blowing smoke.
I will say this too, making this game balanced when it is this complex is near impossible. I have been playing since 4th and in my area, it has seemed to be the most balanced yet. That has no hard evidence, it is just a feeling. I really hope people start playing the bugs and telling us what they got out of it.
Ok, have at it.
I can agree with everything you're saying here, but the downside is they've already put out at least one codex that has piles and piles of OP things, there in the Eldar.. I only know because a friend is a hardcore Eldar player. My big issues are the little changes... like adjusting "Units within __ inches" to "MODELS within __ inches" for everything from Synapse to Venomthrope forcing us to cluster all of our models together in such a way that we become template fodder. It's going to be a VERY trying type to be a tyranid player, and though I'm willing, I am not looking forward to anything but testing to see if it really is broken down or not.
sgtpjbarker wrote: My big issues are the little changes... like adjusting "Units within __ inches" to "MODELS within __ inches" for everything from Synapse to Venomthrope forcing us to cluster all of our models together in such a way that we become template fodder. It's going to be a VERY trying type to be a tyranid player, and though I'm willing, I am not looking forward to anything but testing to see if it really is broken down or not.
Bear in mind that for Shouded, if one model is within 6 inches all models in the unit get Shrouded (BRB). I am not sure about FNP, etc, will have to check.
Tsunai wrote: My big issues are the little changes... like adjusting "Units within __ inches" to "MODELS within __ inches" for everything from Synapse to Venomthrope forcing us to cluster all of our models together in such a way that we become template fodder.
What frightens me more is the fact that the people who made those changes might not even appreciate just how much they changed the rule, and take a really flighty "Oh just play it the way we meant" attitude which is 100% the wrong attitude to take to writing rules.
I can agree with everything you're saying here, but the downside is they've already put out at least one codex that has piles and piles of OP things, there in the Eldar.. I only know because a friend is a hardcore Eldar player. My big issues are the little changes... like adjusting "Units within __ inches" to "MODELS within __ inches" for everything from Synapse to Venomthrope forcing us to cluster all of our models together in such a way that we become template fodder. It's going to be a VERY trying type to be a tyranid player, and though I'm willing, I am not looking forward to anything but testing to see if it really is broken down or not.
Doesn't work like that in 6th. In 6th ed, usually when a single model is affected by something, the whole unit is affected as well.
"Shroud" is an example of this. SnP, iirc, is another.
I can't decide wether or not to be offended TBH.
I stated clearly that we had models we like the look of, not models nessacerily good in-game.
I mean seriously, we woke up at ten in the morning and went
Literally: "dude, wanna get a game in before you have to leave?"
"yeah, you wanna use marines or 'nids?"
"I'l use nids, you use marines and your chaos."
It was the most casual game I've had, it was also fun.
You know, FUN. Where you do seme thing you like, not something that will win.
Damn. I mean, I was just trying to give my experience and opinion.
the shrouded lord wrote: I can't decide wether or not to be offended TBH. I stated clearly that we had models we like the look of, not models nessacerily good in-game. I mean seriously, we woke up at ten in the morning and went Literally: "dude, wanna get a game in before you have to leave?" "yeah, you wanna use marines or 'nids?" "I'l use nids, you use marines and your chaos." It was the most casual game I've had, it was also fun. You know, FUN. Where you do seme thing you like, not something that will win. Damn. I mean, I was just trying to give my experience and opinion.
Don't be offended. I personally enjoyed your post, not everything needs to be hyper competitive just like not everything should be beer & pretzels.
SHUPPET wrote: Don't be offended. I personally enjoyed your post, not everything needs to be hyper competitive just like not everything should be beer & pretzels.
I think the point a lot of us have been making is that regardless of your play-style, there are deficiencies in the Tyranid Codex that can't be explained away with a "Only competitive players care about that" or "Just play to have fun" type of response.
SHUPPET wrote: Don't be offended. I personally enjoyed your post, not everything needs to be hyper competitive just like not everything should be beer & pretzels.
I think the point a lot of us have been making is that regardless of your play-style, there are deficiencies in the Tyranid Codex that can't be explained away with a "Only competitive players care about that" or "Just play to have fun" type of response.
Hey I don't know if you've been reading but I've nonstop fully agreed with all this.
As does the shrouded lord, even if his list sucks he still agrees that the new codex is terrible, which just shows the sentiment is universal to all levels of skill (hopefully).
Well let's hope so. I wish it wasn't this way, but it's good to see that when something really bad for the game occurs (most) people actually sit up and take notice.
the shrouded lord wrote: I can't decide wether or not to be offended TBH.
I stated clearly that we had models we like the look of, not models nessacerily good in-game.
Ignore him. That was rude, but perhaps with no intention. He is a competitive player and they have this "bragging" thing. Do not take that seriously.
Most players are NOT competitive and only play (and enjoy) casual games. I have never played an "optimized" list in my life, and hope I never will.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Well let's hope so. I wish it wasn't this way, but it's good to see that when something really bad for the game occurs (most) people actually sit up and take notice.
I agree, my hope isn't that this dex has had a negative affect towards casuals where possible, just that people realise when they are being fed a sub-par meal. Because that way they know they can fight for the quality cuisine !
Oh yeah, I don't think I've actuely said it yet, sorry, the new codex is crap. I mean, there are some things that look good , tail biomorphs point reductions, but you tourney-goers are fethed. And to those saying "don't compare to taudar, let's face it, that IS the average tourney list. Personally, I'm going to keep playing tyranids, I play against wraith-dar (my own army), space marines (no vehicles), chAos ( my best friends army), and necrons (again mine. No flyers) so I don't really have anything to worry about.
Except of course for GW damn killing my parasite of mortrex. But other people, those who play against tau and stuff, are totally destroyed. Tervigon spam was so expensive you didn't see it much, but at least it stood a chance against the aforementioned. Now the only thing I can see working is as many synapse and carnifexes crammed into a list as possible.
Also, what's a dataslate?
the shrouded lord wrote: Oh yeah, I don't think I've actuely said it yet, sorry, the new codex is crap.
Well you made a battle report with an end game summary describing basically all your units as useless piece's of gak except for the Hive Tyrant, so I don't think you have to specifically state that you personally aren't ecstatic with the new codex.
Especially after making multiple posts throughout different threads, with varying uses of capitalization, and a bunch of hits on the swear filter each time, conveying your reaction to GW's decision to cut a certain model.
the shrouded lord wrote: Oh yeah, I don't think I've actuely said it yet, sorry, the new codex is crap. I mean, there are some things that look good , tail biomorphs point reductions, but you tourney-goers are fethed. And to those saying "don't compare to taudar, let's face it, that IS the average tourney list. Personally, I'm going to keep playing tyranids, I play against wraith-dar (my own army), space marines (no vehicles), chAos ( my best friends army), and necrons (again mine. No flyers) so I don't really have anything to worry about.
Except of course for GW damn killing my parasite of mortrex. But other people, those who play against tau and stuff, are totally destroyed. Tervigon spam was so expensive you didn't see it much, but at least it stood a chance against the aforementioned. Now the only thing I can see working is as many synapse and carnifexes crammed into a list as possible.
Also, what's a dataslate?
A "dataslate" is a horrendous monstrosity recently created by GW to turn this game into hell. It is the equivalent of video-games´ DLCs. You pay for them and you get a handful of pages for one single model or one "formation" to use with your Codex. The first one introduced Be´Lakor, a named character for Chaos, and the most eagerly expected gave us back the beloved Cypher. The problem is that many dataslates introduce completely broken units, absolutely over the top, so a "competitive" player can pay more than the rest and easily defeat them. Particularly bad are the Formations, that do not include new units or fluff: paying will allow you to use the same units you have with additional, completely broken rules, and that´s all. Pure, undiluted, shameless "pay for win".
So you get the Tyranids Codex and it is crap. On purpose. But GW has already announced dataslates for it. Perhaps they will include the Parasite of Mortrex. Or the Doom. Or fix the Genestealers. Or the Lictors. So you pay for a broken Codex and then pay for the fixes. Fixes that were already written before-hand. See? Like those video-game DLCs that appear a week after the game is released.
It is the last step of this company towards eternal damnation. I hope this blows in their faces.
the shrouded lord wrote: Oh yeah, I don't think I've actuely said it yet, sorry, the new codex is crap. I mean, there are some things that look good , tail biomorphs point reductions, but you tourney-goers are fethed. And to those saying "don't compare to taudar, let's face it, that IS the average tourney list. Personally, I'm going to keep playing tyranids, I play against wraith-dar (my own army), space marines (no vehicles), chAos ( my best friends army), and necrons (again mine. No flyers) so I don't really have anything to worry about.
Except of course for GW damn killing my parasite of mortrex. But other people, those who play against tau and stuff, are totally destroyed. Tervigon spam was so expensive you didn't see it much, but at least it stood a chance against the aforementioned. Now the only thing I can see working is as many synapse and carnifexes crammed into a list as possible.
Also, what's a dataslate?
A "dataslate" is a horrendous monstrosity recently created by GW to turn this game into hell. It is the equivalent of video-games´ DLCs. You pay for them and you get a handful of pages for one single model or one "formation" to use with your Codex. The first one introduced Be´Lakor, a named character for Chaos, and the most eagerly expected gave us back the beloved Cypher. The problem is that many dataslates introduce completely broken units, absolutely over the top, so a "competitive" player can pay more than the rest and easily defeat them. Particularly bad are the Formations, that do not include new units or fluff: paying will allow you to use the same units you have with additional, completely broken rules, and that´s all. Pure, undiluted, shameless "pay for win".
So you get the Tyranids Codex and it is crap. On purpose. But GW has already announced dataslates for it. Perhaps they will include the Parasite of Mortrex. Or the Doom. Or fix the Genestealers. Or the Lictors. So you pay for a broken Codex and then pay for the fixes. Fixes that were already written before-hand. See? Like those video-game DLCs that appear a week after the game is released.
It is the last step of this company towards eternal damnation. I hope this blows in their faces.
So, there might be a parasite of mortrex?
Ha ha ha!
GW expects me to pay money for that? Have they not heard of the internets!
Usually I don't approve of "scan-and-print" especially considering a tau codex I purchased off eBay, but If this happens, I'm printing it from the dark places of the Internet, cause that is bull gak. How much does a "data slate" cost? I assume you buy it online and it is a PDF file?
the shrouded lord wrote: Oh yeah, I don't think I've actuely said it yet, sorry, the new codex is crap. I mean, there are some things that look good , tail biomorphs point reductions, but you tourney-goers are fethed. And to those saying "don't compare to taudar, let's face it, that IS the average tourney list. Personally, I'm going to keep playing tyranids, I play against wraith-dar (my own army), space marines (no vehicles), chAos ( my best friends army), and necrons (again mine. No flyers) so I don't really have anything to worry about.
Except of course for GW damn killing my parasite of mortrex. But other people, those who play against tau and stuff, are totally destroyed. Tervigon spam was so expensive you didn't see it much, but at least it stood a chance against the aforementioned. Now the only thing I can see working is as many synapse and carnifexes crammed into a list as possible.
Also, what's a dataslate?
A "dataslate" is a horrendous monstrosity recently created by GW to turn this game into hell. It is the equivalent of video-games´ DLCs. You pay for them and you get a handful of pages for one single model or one "formation" to use with your Codex. The first one introduced Be´Lakor, a named character for Chaos, and the most eagerly expected gave us back the beloved Cypher. The problem is that many dataslates introduce completely broken units, absolutely over the top, so a "competitive" player can pay more than the rest and easily defeat them. Particularly bad are the Formations, that do not include new units or fluff: paying will allow you to use the same units you have with additional, completely broken rules, and that´s all. Pure, undiluted, shameless "pay for win".
So you get the Tyranids Codex and it is crap. On purpose. But GW has already announced dataslates for it. Perhaps they will include the Parasite of Mortrex. Or the Doom. Or fix the Genestealers. Or the Lictors. So you pay for a broken Codex and then pay for the fixes. Fixes that were already written before-hand. See? Like those video-game DLCs that appear a week after the game is released.
It is the last step of this company towards eternal damnation. I hope this blows in their faces.
Lol, hyperbole much? For real, your valid point gets lost in overstatement. For what its worth, I agree with you. Dataslates are a scam, judging by the way they have been implemented recently. The FOC just gets in the way of people spending money. I have about 4000-5000 points of tyranids that I am putting back in the display case until such time as they are made playable in at least a semi-competitive environment. They still won't get my money, but I will use their rules. Vanguard may mean that I can mitigate the entirely sub-par codex and get back to using nids.
I apologize for my rudness about the level of competitiveness I merely pointed it out to show how those results may have shown good things for nids, but were scewed by unoptimised choices and tactics (like if a race car was going up against a sportscar but the race car could only go into 1st gear but the sportscar could go into 2nd, see how that may scew the results of the race?)
Lol, hyperbole much? For real, your valid point gets lost in overstatement. For what its worth, I agree with you. Dataslates are a scam, judging by the way they have been implemented recently. The FOC just gets in the way of people spending money. I have about 4000-5000 points of tyranids that I am putting back in the display case until such time as they are made playable in at least a semi-competitive environment. They still won't get my money, but I will use their rules. Vanguard may mean that I can mitigate the entirely sub-par codex and get back to using nids.
Yeah hyperbole, I don´t think they have damned their souls with this. I think they lost their souls some time ago.
It is a money-grabbing, with things like Be´Lakor being the shiny face of it. And it calls to the worst in the soul of competitive players: pay us and you don´t get fluff, don´t get models, don´t get anything save two pages with a couple of rules...
I also like the fact that, in one single month, they have moved from 3.49 to 5.99. I hope it is 7.99 in April and 15.99 in June. "Get the last rules for your Riptides! Prove those losers you are the Best General Ever! Only 15.99 € stays in your path to glory!!." Hilarious.
A GumyBear wrote: I apologize for my rudness about the level of competitiveness I merely pointed it out to show how those results may have shown good things for nids, but were scewed by unoptimised choices and tactics (like if a race car was going up against a sportscar but the race car could only go into 1st gear but the sportscar could go into 2nd, see how that may scew the results of the race?)
This speaks well of you
Anyway, I do not think your post was rude. At least for me. You were actually right. When I said "Ignore him. That was rude" I was referring to another post.
AesSedai wrote: I don't begrudge a corporation its money grab. After all, I know firsthand that GW is reaping the fruit of their actions.
Oh so you work in the sales figures team then?
Yeah, I am curious too.
Unless you mean they are using the benefit to reap bananas in order to pay some of the people writing the rules and background. I was told they now accept to be paid in bananas.
They are a publicly traded company. As such, they have to release their financial information.
That said, despite price increases and such, their profit has stagnated the last few years from my understanding. Which means that while they are making more per unit sold, they are selling less units.
AesSedai wrote: I don't begrudge a corporation its money grab. After all, I know firsthand that GW is reaping the fruit of their actions.
Oh so you work in the sales figures team then?
Yeah, I am curious too.
Unless you mean they are using the benefit to reap bananas in order to pay some of the people writing the rules and background. I was told they now accept to be paid in bananas.
AesSedai wrote: I don't begrudge a corporation its money grab. After all, I know firsthand that GW is reaping the fruit of their actions.
Oh so you work in the sales figures team then?
Yeah, I am curious too.
Unless you mean they are using the benefit to reap bananas in order to pay some of the people writing the rules and background. I was told they now accept to be paid in bananas.
Tsunai wrote: My big issues are the little changes... like adjusting "Units within __ inches" to "MODELS within __ inches" for everything from Synapse to Venomthrope forcing us to cluster all of our models together in such a way that we become template fodder.
What frightens me more is the fact that the people who made those changes might not even appreciate just how much they changed the rule, and take a really flighty "Oh just play it the way we meant" attitude which is 100% the wrong attitude to take to writing rules.
There is no such thing as RAI until human develop telepathy. There is only RAW.
Ignore him. That was rude, but perhaps with no intention. He is a competitive player and they have this "bragging" thing. Do not take that seriously.
Most players are NOT competitive and only play (and enjoy) casual games. I have never played an "optimized" list in my life, and hope I never will.
I never played a non optimized list and even those lists we call for casual seem to be viewed as OP here . Never seen anyone play or even buy bad armies .
And if something thinks that the problem with the nid dex hits the tournament players your dead wrong. The top will just switch codex , others will just play the stuff which is good , ending up with a mono build . But the real problem is going to be for those noob players , who will play against their friends noob armies and get kicked around by those .
Ignore him. That was rude, but perhaps with no intention. He is a competitive player and they have this "bragging" thing. Do not take that seriously.
Most players are NOT competitive and only play (and enjoy) casual games. I have never played an "optimized" list in my life, and hope I never will.
I never played a non optimized list and even those lists we call for casual seem to be viewed as OP here . Never seen anyone play or even buy bad armies .
And if something thinks that the problem with the nid dex hits the tournament players your dead wrong. The top will just switch codex , others will just play the stuff which is good , ending up with a mono build . But the real problem is going to be for those noob players , who will play against their friends noob armies and get kicked around by those .
This is true. People like me who are stuck with one army are hurt the worst. At least BA become "Blood Hands" which a couple of red-sprayed TFCs.
Makumba wrote: Cool , only your crones are huge models and are getting battered from turn 1 on by opponents skyfire units and they will be the first on the table so flyers will get a round of shoting on them first. the only thing they counter "good" is other FMC
A lack of imagination does not constuitute good advice. You reserve Hive Crones if they are there to fight flyers. Obviously. So no. You're not shooting them turn 1. and in turn 3 when they show up, you'll have your hands full with gaunts and other various and sundry monsters. If not, the game is already lost anyways. The Crones are also, btw, not bad in combat and can help crash the party where needed.
Ignore him. That was rude, but perhaps with no intention. He is a competitive player and they have this "bragging" thing. Do not take that seriously.
Most players are NOT competitive and only play (and enjoy) casual games. I have never played an "optimized" list in my life, and hope I never will.
I never played a non optimized list and even those lists we call for casual seem to be viewed as OP here . Never seen anyone play or even buy bad armies .
Really? Optimized? As in always the best and only the best?
So if tomorrow a Dataslate is released giving you an unfair advantage for just 12.99 you will run to get it, refusing to play a single game until you are "optimized" again? And if your Codex is released and half your units have been nerfed you rush to buy a new army from the scratch, regardless of the money, and never play a single time with nothing but the best?
And you have never seen anybody who do otherwise? Everyone you know run to the shop to buy the newest piece of overpowered stuff GW poops every week? Do you really never saw a player buying a model just because he thought the model was cool, or the background of the unit / army? Everyone you know buys based on min-maxing the chances to win? Seriously?
Wow. I don´t know if you are being sarcastic. I hope you are. If you are not, you are the first really competitive player I have ever heard of. You must have an awful lot of money to invest in this money too. I sort of envy you.
Ignore him. That was rude, but perhaps with no intention. He is a competitive player and they have this "bragging" thing. Do not take that seriously.
Most players are NOT competitive and only play (and enjoy) casual games. I have never played an "optimized" list in my life, and hope I never will.
I never played a non optimized list and even those lists we call for casual seem to be viewed as OP here . Never seen anyone play or even buy bad armies .
Really? Optimized? As in always the best and only the best?
So if tomorrow a Dataslate is released giving you an unfair advantage for just 12.99 you will run to get it, refusing to play a single game until you are "optimized" again? And if your Codex is released and half your units have been nerfed you rush to buy a new army from the scratch, regardless of the money, and never play a single time with nothing but the best?
And you have never seen anybody who do otherwise? Everyone you know run to the shop to buy the newest piece of overpowered stuff GW poops every week? Do you really never saw a player buying a model just because he thought the model was cool, or the background of the unit / army? Everyone you know buys based on min-maxing the chances to win? Seriously?
Wow. I don´t know if you are being sarcastic. I hope you are. If you are not, you are the first really competitive player I have ever heard of. You must have an awful lot of money to invest in this money too. I sort of envy you.
I just don't think they quite understood exactly what it was they were saying... Obviously they prefer a casual playstyle and think we're all the stereotypical WAAC-job.
Makumba wrote: Cool , only your crones are huge models and are getting battered from turn 1 on by opponents skyfire units and they will be the first on the table so flyers will get a round of shoting on them first. the only thing they counter "good" is other FMC
A lack of imagination does not constuitute good advice. You reserve Hive Crones if they are there to fight flyers. Obviously. So no. You're not shooting them turn 1. and in turn 3 when they show up, you'll have your hands full with gaunts and other various and sundry monsters. If not, the game is already lost anyways. The Crones are also, btw, not bad in combat and can help crash the party where needed.
And how does that change being hit by skyfire/interceptors other armies run? Against other flyers this at best means they have a 50% chance to come out of reservs after they do .They suddenly become more survivable , just because they are in reservs . And while they are in reservs on turn 1 there are fewer options for the AA guns to shot at and ending with the tyrants dieing sooner .
They will never reach melee , so that is hardly a argument in their favor . I
Really? Optimized? As in always the best and only the best?
Yes , it is better to play a good army and have fun most of the time , then play a bad army , have a bad time and try to force others to play bad armies too , so you have a chance to win . When of course your not playing to win ,because wining is bad .
So if tomorrow a Dataslate is released giving you an unfair advantage for just 12.99 you will run to get it, refusing to play a single game until you are "optimized" again? And if your Codex is released and half your units have been nerfed you rush to buy a new army from the scratch, regardless of the money, and never play a single time with nothing but the best?
If it is in the rules then there is no such thing as unfair . And I have never seen anyone refuse a game here , because someone thinks his opponent is too tough. Not liking the other person , being the supporter of a different football team . Yeah those things happened and probably will , not playing because someone plays a legal army is not something we do .
And you have never seen anybody who do otherwise? Everyone you know run to the shop to buy the newest piece of overpowered stuff GW poops every week? Do you really never saw a player buying a model just because he thought the model was cool, or the background of the unit / army? Everyone you know buys based on min-maxing the chances to win? Seriously?
yes people buy good armies and stick to them . The better the armies , the longer they can play them without changing and the more people buy the armies . No one wants to play an army which will be bad for 4 years and then maybe gets a good codex. Because most people play the games only for some time . And if by background you mean w40k fluff then it is kind of a stupid and most of the time doesn't make sense . I don't see how someone could spend cash on an army on units that will never work like the fluff tells they do . Would be a huge waste of money too , if the units someone likes also happen to suck .
Wow. I don´t know if you are being sarcastic. I hope you are. If you are not, you are the first really competitive player I have ever heard of. You must have an awful lot of money to invest in this money too. I sort of envy you.
Unless someone can live out of playing w40k , and that is I think limited to people in the GW design team , there are no competitive players runing GW games.
@Makumba: first things first, thanks for the reply. I was concerned that it could be taken as rude or as an attack. Instead you took your time to answer everything I posted.
Let me assure you I respect whatever view you have of the game. But our opinions of what is the most important part of the hobby couldn´t be more different! In my opinion, the rules suck like no tomorrow. Three reasons:
1: They are poorly worded. The number and length of "You Make Da Call"´s threads gives a correct impression of how confusing this game can get. It is a game supposed to be played without really caring about the rules (the "just roll a dice" thing).
2: They are too random. You create a brilliant tactic yet a 1 or a 6 destroys it. And it happens every turn.
3: They are lacking balance. The people writing them has expressed many times that they do not pretend them to be balanced, they do not care for competitions. They just write stuff that sounds fun. And Formations (and other stuff) are money grabbings: they give an edge to players who pay for getting rules. Nothing else. You pay for the rule that benefits you. That´s like paying the referee.
I played chess competitively for some time, and it was a blast. Every time you win you know it is because you have oursmarted your enemy in a fair match. Every defeat teaches you something about tactics. And if you are really good at it, you can make a living out of it.
I wouldn´t be here if it wasn´t for the background, which I love. The game is a way to bring it to life. And properly prepared models help me to visualize the story the game is telling. I have a blast every time I play, regardless of winning or losing, as long as the battle is "fun". If I table my opponent in turn 3 I do not feel good, and neither if he tables me. And playing with a "better" list is like playing chess with the other person playing without bishops. What´s the point?
No offense intended, but I will not play against a competitive player with a list far better than mine, it would be like a chess player proposing me to play against him without some pieces, to help him to win. With the additional embarrasment of the other person thinking that he is a better player than me because he has more pieces. A fair match is a good match.
Have you tried some way to know who is actually the better player? Like playing with your list and then playing again after exchanging armies with your rival.
---- Sorry for the off-topic. I was curious.
on topic again:
Makumba wrote: (...)
And if something thinks that the problem with the nid dex hits the tournament players your dead wrong. The top will just switch codex , others will just play the stuff which is good , ending up with a mono build . But the real problem is going to be for those noob players , who will play against their friends noob armies and get kicked around by those .
I think otherwise.
People who care for tournaments who have invested money in tyranids will just switch codex... which implies a lot of money and effort, just because the Codex is not good enough. The problem hits them on the wallet, and depending on the person that may be really bad.
On the other side, people who are new to the army will enjoy it, not knowing better, as long as they stay away of competitions. Sure they will lose a lot, but they will probably lose with Tau too, until they learn the game. And they will learn quickly with a difficult, weak army than with an easy, strong army.
Martel732 wrote: (...)
People like me who are stuck with one army are hurt the worst. At least BA become "Blood Hands" which a couple of red-sprayed TFCs.
Then do not get stuck with one army.
Get some units from other armies and play them, you will learn a lot about the setting and the game by switching sides this way. Allies help this a lot.
Get some units from other armies and play them, you will learn a lot about the setting and the game by switching sides this way. Allies help this a lot.
That is easy to say when someone plays marines . You can switch a chaos army to any loyalist army , back and forth ,, but a nid player doesn't realy have another army that looks like his . Technicly he could play IG with crones being valks , guants being troopers and vets and other MCs being chimeras and Russes , but everything is going to be the wrong size . Nids also do not have ally .
I was concerned that it could be taken as rude or as an attack.
From what I see on polish boards , I view Dakka as very civil and polite , maybe even too much.
On the other side, people who are new to the army will enjoy it, not knowing better, as long as they stay away of competitions. Sure they will lose a lot, but they will probably lose with Tau too, until they learn the game. And they will learn quickly with a difficult, weak army than with an easy, strong army.
But there is little difference between armies played in tournaments and outside of them . Maybe a starting dude will not have the revenant , but he will counts as it soon or buy it for cheap . A tau player may not start with buying half and eldar army and 5 riptides to get 3-4 builds . But the tides , the seers , the missilisides , cmd will be there even if he doesn't start with 1500pts . The bikes will be driping gravs and chaos is going to be runing helldrakes . He may not face a baronstar or a screamer star , but the portal/grim and wave serpents will be there from day one , because those things are the core of those armies . And considering his skill will be the way they are with all noobs , not very high on avarge , his friends with armies that have units that play themselfs are going to have more fun and he will have less fun .
And if fun for him is just being with people and not playing , why buy an army at all . Pick some models here and there and start becoming a pro painter . Cheaper and one can even get money from it
excuse the "just get another army" guy.
I'm guessing he's a space marine player (they/we all have at least one other army).
ok, well, soon enough I'll have two new fexes so il be able to say how a full brood does in a game.
I was concerned that it could be taken as rude or as an attack.
From what I see on polish boards , I view Dakka as very civil and polite , maybe even too much.
On the other side, people who are new to the army will enjoy it, not knowing better, as long as they stay away of competitions. Sure they will lose a lot, but they will probably lose with Tau too, until they learn the game. And they will learn quickly with a difficult, weak army than with an easy, strong army.
But there is little difference between armies played in tournaments and outside of them . Maybe a starting dude will not have the revenant , but he will counts as it soon or buy it for cheap . A tau player may not start with buying half and eldar army and 5 riptides to get 3-4 builds . But the tides , the seers , the missilisides , cmd will be there even if he doesn't start with 1500pts . The bikes will be driping gravs and chaos is going to be runing helldrakes . He may not face a baronstar or a screamer star , but the portal/grim and wave serpents will be there from day one , because those things are the core of those armies . And considering his skill will be the way they are with all noobs , not very high on avarge , his friends with armies that have units that play themselfs are going to have more fun and he will have less fun .
And if fun for him is just being with people and not playing , why buy an army at all . Pick some models here and there and start becoming a pro painter . Cheaper and one can even get money from it
Interesting. This just makes it more obvious how different are our "metas". I play mostly with old friends, lots of house rules, beer, proxies....
Coming to think of it, I am sure your group supports more this game that ours.
the shrouded lord wrote: excuse the "just get another army" guy.
I'm guessing he's a space marine player (they/we all have at least one other army).
ok, well, soon enough I'll have two new fexes so il be able to say how a full brood does in a game.
That´s me!
I play Tyranids, Chaos Space Marines (main army), Chaos Daemons, Sisters aaaannnnd yes, Space Marines, in two flavors: vanilla and wolves. You were right By the way, the only reason I do not have more armies is the money.
And you are also right in this: Tyranids is the most difficult army to switch to and from (no allies). And Space Marines is the easiest (lots of books for the same army): I have used my marines (both vanilla and chaos) as Dark Angels, Templars (in 4th and 5th) and Blood Angels.
Anyway, my advice is still the same: get another army. It will give you a wider view of the setting and the game. It will help you to appreciate how unique and awesome Tyranids are. Pick your choice and try it. Getting stuck in a single Codex makes you quite vulnerable to GW´s schizophrenia.
It doesn´t need to be a full army. I have about 500 points of Sisters, and it has been a while since I played them due to the lack love from GW, but it is enough to get a feeling of the army, and it they get an interesting Codex I can get a 1000/1500 army quicker. Also, you can ask your friends to let you their armies to get a feel of the faction. How much money did you planed to expend in the Tyranid Codex? Use it to get some cheap models on ebay and build a second army.
I think it is worth the effort, and recommend it to all other players.
^ He's right. Nothing puts your army into perspective more than playing against the same army again with a completely different race full of its own advantages and weaknesses. Only if you can afford it, there is no real point to having two unfinished armies imo, tighten up what you need for the new nid dex so you still have a playable army, then have a look at the other army you think is cool.
It's not like building your first army, you will be a lot more focused, as you have knowledge of the game and can decide on a list before purchases, everything is easier than the first time around.
And how does that change being hit by skyfire/interceptors other armies run? Against other flyers this at best means they have a 50% chance to come out of reservs after they do .They suddenly become more survivable , just because they are in reservs . And while they are in reservs on turn 1 there are fewer options for the AA guns to shot at and ending with the tyrants dieing sooner .
They will never reach melee , so that is hardly a argument in their favor . I
Sir... By the time it comes from reserve, the main anti-air will be gone unless it is itself aircraft...buyt then thats what we wanted. And 50% chance of coming out after the enemy flyer is better than the ZERO chance you had before so you make my point FOR me. Who cares what the AA gun shoots at for ONE turn that ISNT a vehicle or flying thing? Lol. No one. Because the 1-2 wounds it causes before it expires is fine with me.
And the Hive Crone can most definitely get in melee if needed. It isn't a frontline fighter, but its there and available to help an otherwise Not-so-great looking melee. So the usefulness of having an answer to a protracted combat your troops might get into is valuable.
Imagination is whats needed here. not words like "Just" and "only". Fact is, tactically, a reserved Hive Crone makes sense a lot of the time.
I took my Nids from shelf after 10+ years because of the new dex. I can´t say I like it nor can I say I dislike it. It looks interesting and somewhat appealing so I shelved my other armies for now and will try nids again. Buy everything as often as I can use it and try out stuff or proxy if you are not such a freak as me who is sinking so much money&freetime into this awesome hobby. I have to admit that there are some strange rules like tunnels and some swampy rules but nothing that can´t be worked out since I don´t play with people who never realised the first rule of this game is fun. So if something is unclear discuss it beforehand and focus on the game after. If something comes up during the game, roll a dice and keep playing to discuss the rule problem after the game.
I had a lot of fun playing against my cousin's new Nids. He used a little of everything.
The mawlocks are the coolest, I think. Nothing else really stood out.. but we had fun. I play a pretty aggressive CSM list, so I was not just gun-lining him.
So how much of the fluff in the new codex IS copy pasted? I don't really care too much about unit entrys... but the rest of the book, is the bulk of it new? If so what percentage is just ganked from 5E?
SHUPPET wrote: So how much of the fluff in the new codex IS copy pasted? I don't really care too much about unit entrys... but the rest of the book, is the bulk of it new? If so what percentage is just ganked from 5E?
Sir... By the time it comes from reserve, the main anti-air will be gone unless it is itself aircraft...buyt then thats what we wanted. And 50% chance of coming out after the enemy flyer is better than the ZERO chance you had before so you make my point FOR me. Who cares what the AA gun shoots at for ONE turn that ISNT a vehicle or flying thing? Lol. No one. Because the 1-2 wounds it causes before it expires is fine with me.
Realy with short range weapons and most of nids being slow you wipe our all skyfire/interceptors ?And you don't have problems with tyrants or the new FMC out pacing the rest of the army , no problems with grounding tests . Two quad guns demolish a single crone , everything nids have gets grounded the same way it did before , only before there were dooms to deal with and pod devi gaunts. now whole turn 1 can be spend on killing/grounding just the FMCs .And that is for armies that don't run any stronghold fortifications or tau as main or ally .
There was no 0% chance before , because you didn't have them before this codex. Unless you somehow were crazy enough to put your other FMC in to reservs , the dakka tyrant and then you had a 50% chance to come after your opponent flyers. So it was the same chance to get grounded or shot down as before . That is why no one did it , because it was better to be on the board from turn 1 and cast biomancy to make oneself more survivable , then try to come out of reservs and get hit by skyfire and get grounded.
And how does that change being hit by skyfire/interceptors other armies run? Against other flyers this at best means they have a 50% chance to come out of reservs after they do .They suddenly become more survivable , just because they are in reservs . And while they are in reservs on turn 1 there are fewer options for the AA guns to shot at and ending with the tyrants dieing sooner .
Sir... By the time it comes from reserve, the main anti-air will be gone unless it is itself aircraft...buyt then thats what we wanted. And 50% chance of coming out after the enemy flyer is better than the ZERO chance you had before so you make my point FOR me. Who cares what the AA gun shoots at for ONE turn that ISNT a vehicle or flying thing? Lol. No one. Because the 1-2 wounds it causes before it expires is fine with me.
I would never field a Crone without also fielding a Mawloc to try to knock out AA. Most squads that would man a Quad Gun will have their day seriously wrecked by 2 St6 AP2 hits.
It is a real shame that Deathleaper is an HQ, and hence prevents you from taking 2x Flyrants. My hunch is that at some point in the future, GW will release a Tyranid supplement which will allow Tyranids to ally with the supplement Tyranids. I think that would make them much more competitive in tournament play.
It is a real shame that Deathleaper is an HQ, and hence prevents you from taking 2x Flyrants. My hunch is that at some point in the future, GW will release a Tyranid supplement which will allow Tyranids to ally with the supplement Tyranids. I think that would make them much more competitive in tournament play.
I disagree. Allying won't help that much.
What additional units would you take if you could?
3 Flyrants perhaps? So that's 690 Points gone.
Troops - Terv, 2 units of Gants, 965 points gone.
Fast - 40 Gargs with Adrenal - 1285 points gone.
Heavy - 6 plain fexes? - 2005 points gone.
That really doesn't feel like a 2k list to me, feels more 1850.
It would seem that the Tyranids need an army wide buff or further points drop to be competitive, allying with yourself I don't think will help enough.
^ Yep, Nids needs a boost to be competitive.
But rather a pointless discussion, nothing will change, best shelving your Nids and not wasting your time.
Gibbsey wrote: I'm mostly dissapointed by the lack of hive fleet tactics and self allying.
Hell even if none of the rules changed nid chapter tactics could completely change how the codex works.
Something like:
Swarm tactic
Tervigons spawn units with ag/ts and halved gaunt radius damage when it dies
Termagaunts etc ag/ts cost 1pt less
Flyer tactics
Gargoyles as troops
Parasite hq/elite option
Serpent tactics
Ravenors as troops and can use trygon holes
Trygon prime also as hq
Nidzilla tactics
Carnifex list
Don't want to get people's hopes up, but there seems to be a good chance that the three new dataslates will include options to have gargoyles as troops, or to have an MC army, which will possibly include carnifexes as troops. Yes, I agree those options should have been included in the dex - as it's not so much the lack of power of the 'dex that irritates lots of people, as the fact it hugely restricts your play style.
Gibbsey wrote: I'm mostly dissapointed by the lack of hive fleet tactics and self allying.
Hell even if none of the rules changed nid chapter tactics could completely change how the codex works.
Did you honestly expect either? I mean, in a world where chaos and imperial guard don't have chapter tactics, eldar don't have craft world rules and tau don't have Sept rules, you really expected Tyranids to get Hive Fleet distinctions?
You have to be somewhat careful with your "Hive Fleet tactics" as well. Giving up access to units for a bonus, when you have no intention of using said units anyways, is just a straight bonus....we call it "3.5 Edition Chaos Codex" or "4th Edition Space Marine Codex" Syndrome. You could take a tiny draw back and then a big advantage and laugh all the way to the bank as the draw back has no effect on you.
As for the expanded FoC chart, well, 6 months ago people would have laughed in your face if you said you wanted that, but the release of Lord of War, dataslates and the inquisition codex for ally free....allies.....has really removed the credibility/importance of the force organization chart. That said, with tyranids not allowed to take allies, I'm not surprised we didn't get anything here. The dataslates will probably allow FoC free units anyways....but it remains to be seen if they are going to be even remotely good (we should know in about 10 hours anyways).
You have to be somewhat careful with your "Hive Fleet tactics" as well. Giving up access to units for a bonus, when you have no intention of using said units anyways, is just a straight bonus....we call it "3.5 Edition Chaos Codex" or "4th Edition Space Marine Codex" Syndrome. You could take a tiny draw back and then a big advantage and laugh all the way to the bank as the draw back has no effect on you.
As for the expanded FoC chart, well, 6 months ago people would have laughed in your face if you said you wanted that, but the release of Lord of War, dataslates and the inquisition codex for ally free....allies.....has really removed the credibility/importance of the force organization chart. That said, with tyranids not allowed to take allies, I'm not surprised we didn't get anything here. The dataslates will probably allow FoC free units anyways....but it remains to be seen if they are going to be even remotely good (we should know in about 10 hours anyways).
Yeah mainly expecting it because of zero allies and how effective tactics are in space marine codex. I would of rathered we got decent rules in our codex instead of being gouged right off the bat for dataslates.
Sir... By the time it comes from reserve, the main anti-air will be gone unless it is itself aircraft...buyt then thats what we wanted. And 50% chance of coming out after the enemy flyer is better than the ZERO chance you had before so you make my point FOR me. Who cares what the AA gun shoots at for ONE turn that ISNT a vehicle or flying thing? Lol. No one. Because the 1-2 wounds it causes before it expires is fine with me.
Realy with short range weapons and most of nids being slow you wipe our all skyfire/interceptors ?And you don't have problems with tyrants or the new FMC out pacing the rest of the army , no problems with grounding tests . Two quad guns demolish a single crone , everything nids have gets grounded the same way it did before , only before there were dooms to deal with and pod devi gaunts. now whole turn 1 can be spend on killing/grounding just the FMCs .And that is for armies that don't run any stronghold fortifications or tau as main or ally .
There was no 0% chance before , because you didn't have them before this codex. Unless you somehow were crazy enough to put your other FMC in to reservs , the dakka tyrant and then you had a 50% chance to come after your opponent flyers. So it was the same chance to get grounded or shot down as before . That is why no one did it , because it was better to be on the board from turn 1 and cast biomancy to make oneself more survivable , then try to come out of reservs and get hit by skyfire and get grounded.
Yes. Really really. There are pretty reliable ways to kill the AA before crones arrive and target saturation is pretty much what nids look to excel at. As was said, Mawlocs and exocrines might do it on their oen if they even need both.. obviously every game unfolds differently but its no Amazing leap to understand that the Hive Crone can be freed to do its duty with very reasonable chances of success.
What I'm reading here saddens me greatly. Tyranids were my first army, back in 2nd edition. (I'm ignoring all the crap about people being evil for hoping to defeat their opponents. That's the name of the game, folks. There's no shame in losing, but there's no shame in wanting to win either. And equal footing is not too much to ask for.)
I thought it would be intuitive for GW to make Tyranids at least on par with the other 6th ed codices. Give them more access to upgrades/biomorphs than other armies get, as they should be the most varied race, what with the ability to evolve and adapt and all... I don't think it would have been too ridiculous to allow them to choose upgrades at the beginning of the battle so they can tailor their needs specifically depending on their opponent.
How many iterations of Tyranids is it going to take before GW grows a brain? Every Nid dex has been met with resounding disappointment. My theory (and yes, I honestly believe this) is that GW is afraid of Tyranids. Maybe not directly, (then again maybe) but they're afraid that their grim dark universe will feel too doomed if Tyranids (the race Eldrad predicted would wipe out the galaxy) start winning too many games on the table top. They're afraid 40k players will become too full of despair if Tyranids become a threat to their army. So they turn them into the "noncompetitive" army, aka, the army that is made to lose... The army that is made to make the other armies feel good about themselves.
By my reckoning, there's no other accounting for this codex being so unabashedly inferior. There's just no way GW doesn't see it. People have been screaming at them about this for years.
Sonic scream with Acid blood. I charge with a Harpy and Sonic scream, you are -5 I, so EVERYONE is going after the harpy. I do my attacks, now you hit me, but the whole unit tests on 1 or 2 I, every fail gives the unit a S5 AP2 hit. Is that worth something. In other words, the unsaved wound on the Harpy forces a check for the whole unit. Also, I am going to probably win every combat and sweep every won combat. Just other Fearless and SM get to stick it out.
Only problem is that a harpy will most likely die before it every gets to CC, stick to the air and shooting from a distance is a much safer option for them and doesn't result in dead harpies.
So I fly at the bad guys and drop my spore mines, then vector strike, if I am able to connect the dots. Then I shoot my TL Venom cannon. Then the bad guys say, ouch, I need to drop him, so they hit me and I hit the ground in their turn. Hopefully surviving their turn. Now I jump into combat with my scream and acid blood. I just wonder if it actually works.
Sir... By the time it comes from reserve, the main anti-air will be gone unless it is itself aircraft...buyt then thats what we wanted. And 50% chance of coming out after the enemy flyer is better than the ZERO chance you had before so you make my point FOR me. Who cares what the AA gun shoots at for ONE turn that ISNT a vehicle or flying thing? Lol. No one. Because the 1-2 wounds it causes before it expires is fine with me.
Realy with short range weapons and most of nids being slow you wipe our all skyfire/interceptors ?And you don't have problems with tyrants or the new FMC out pacing the rest of the army , no problems with grounding tests . Two quad guns demolish a single crone , everything nids have gets grounded the same way it did before , only before there were dooms to deal with and pod devi gaunts. now whole turn 1 can be spend on killing/grounding just the FMCs .And that is for armies that don't run any stronghold fortifications or tau as main or ally .
There was no 0% chance before , because you didn't have them before this codex. Unless you somehow were crazy enough to put your other FMC in to reservs , the dakka tyrant and then you had a 50% chance to come after your opponent flyers. So it was the same chance to get grounded or shot down as before . That is why no one did it , because it was better to be on the board from turn 1 and cast biomancy to make oneself more survivable , then try to come out of reservs and get hit by skyfire and get grounded.
Yes. Really really. There are pretty reliable ways to kill the AA before crones arrive and target saturation is pretty much what nids look to excel at. As was said, Mawlocs and exocrines might do it on their oen if they even need both.. obviously every game unfolds differently but its no Amazing leap to understand that the Hive Crone can be freed to do its duty with very reasonable chances of success.
I've seen Hive Crones in action and read some battle reports, so far I've been underwhelmed with their performance, they're just suffer a lot from being squishy and Instinctive Behaviour.
Hey guys, have you ever considered flanking some devilgaunts?!!
I predict this to be one of our best tactic ever!!!!
Imagine 30x devilgaunts coming out of nowhere and shooting 90 18" str 4 shots at you (90!!!!) for only 240pts (260 if you want to consider the Hive Commander)
This will mow down armies, add prefered enemy to them through the Swarmlord and your Jammin.
I can attest to the effectiveness of outflanking devilgants, outflanked a unit of 15 devs and 15 fleshborers, they put in work, taking out 2 CSM units.
Devilgaunts are must have in just about every army now, 10 at the back of a 30 man squad is a no brainer, taking a 30 man unit and outflanking or putting them behind something else and marching them up with Venomthropes behind them might play nicely as well
Hey guys, have you ever considered flanking some devilgaunts?!!
I predict this to be one of our best tactic ever!!!!
Imagine 30x devilgaunts coming out of nowhere and shooting 90 18" str 4 shots at you (90!!!!) for only 240pts (260 if you want to consider the Hive Commander) This will mow down armies, add prefered enemy to them through the Swarmlord and your Jammin.
If they fail a leadership test (leadership 6, so it's gonna be most of the time) and roll 1-3 (50% chance) that unit runs off the edge of the board which it just outflanked from. The tactic will ether need you to be quite lucky, or have a Flyrant that isn't being targeted by every anti-air weapon your opponent has.
PrinceRaven wrote: I've seen Hive Crones in action and read some battle reports, so far I've been underwhelmed with their performance, they're just suffer a lot from being squishy and Instinctive Behaviour.
Not our experience.
We had to run a single crone (with two flayrants) vs marines, complete with Whirlwind yesterday. We took out the Whirlwind, and the Cone survived to the end of the game, where we mashed an armoured force - only flyer to go down was a single flyrant.
The Crone isn't a silver bullet; but given we've lost spores, they're a great way of applying pressure really early on, using the standard devices of hugging cover first turn, and unleashing everything you can second turn. We're still working out how to address the troops weakness, but Crones (magnetised to swithc to Harpies for the odd game) present some good new possibilities.
Hey guys, have you ever considered flanking some devilgaunts?!!
I predict this to be one of our best tactic ever!!!!
Imagine 30x devilgaunts coming out of nowhere and shooting 90 18" str 4 shots at you (90!!!!) for only 240pts (260 if you want to consider the Hive Commander)
This will mow down armies, add prefered enemy to them through the Swarmlord and your Jammin.
If they fail a leadership test (leadership 6, so it's gonna be most of the time) and roll 1-3 (50% chance) that unit runs off the edge of the board which it just outflanked from. The tactic will ether need you to be quite lucky, or have a Flyrant that isn't being targeted by every anti-air weapon your opponent has.
Which they can't do the turn they arrive, so at minimum you get one turn. And getting them in range of synapse isn't tricky
Devil gaunts in my experience have always been fantastic, if the opponent ignores them in favor of bigger targets they really can tear apart infantry units, if they shoot at them with less than template weapons they generally can't get enough volume of fire to cause them to leadership check. I don't know how outflanking them will work anymore though, if you loose synapse on them they could run off the board the turn after they come in =(
Yeah, damn GW give us back our mycetic spores. And BRB powers. Those are my 2 largest issues with new codex, aside that 90% of the fluff is pure copy-paste, one finds more originality on the Wikipedia that in the Codex.
Devilgaunts, eh? You mean those that outflanked my Paladinstar, shot all the shots, and did a total of one wound? The same unit that then got eaten by a 5 man Sisters of Battle Squad from a Hvy Fl/Flamer drive by?
Scary stuff, I tell you what. Not to mention they'd need a synapse escort or you just either force a pinning check, morale check, or let them just do their own IB. That's 3 chances to fail on Ld6 if unsupported.
Played against the bugs twice. Still not scared. I had my Sisters "Deathstar" (20 girls + 3 Preachers + Uriah) mulch 60+ guants, a Mawloc, and on the way to two Zoeys and a Venomthrope. In close combat.
XT-1984 wrote: My first impression of the Tyranid codex is its much less 'competitive' than the last one for a few reasons.
Perhaps its an attempt at promoting taking Forgeworld units to make up for the weaknesses of the Codex.
Don't know if Tyranids have any forgeworld units worth using though.
You have the Stonecrusher Carnifex.
Which would be in an already heavily contested heavy slot.
That's pretty much all the "gee whiz" stuff you'll find for the nids from forgeworld.
It's a good, competetive unit, but it's not a war-winner.
You also have the malanthrope (went down from being a god of CC to a decidedly mediocre unit), meiotic spores (spore mines+1), and the rest is apocalypse stuff.
TheKbob wrote: Devilgaunts, eh? You mean those that outflanked my Paladinstar, shot all the shots, and did a total of one wound? The same unit that then got eaten by a 5 man Sisters of Battle Squad from a Hvy Fl/Flamer drive by?
Scary stuff, I tell you what. Not to mention they'd need a synapse escort or you just either force a pinning check, morale check, or let them just do their own IB. That's 3 chances to fail on Ld6 if unsupported.
Played against the bugs twice. Still not scared. I had my Sisters "Deathstar" (20 girls + 3 Preachers + Uriah) mulch 60+ guants, a Mawloc, and on the way to two Zoeys and a Venomthrope. In close combat.
Play against someone who really knows their way around the Tyranids. I absolutely love it when my opponent uses a majority toughness 3 army, even with 3+ armour. It takes more finessse than 'here, I put down a lot of models! But they're unsupported, and away from my lines, and out of cover, and shooting at the wrong thing...'
Incidentally, Paladins shouldn't be shot. They should be tied up with infinite numbers of fearless gants. ***
...You do know that the units you listed as demolishing in CC are either dedicated shooting or support units, right? It says nothing about the martial prowess of your ladies (and one old guy!) other than 'We destroyed their baggage train!'
If it wins you the game, then great, but those aren't the best examples of combat skill, so you know.
I had khaldor draigo go for 10 neurone warriors, a cryptic of destruction, and an overlord. He didn't make it because of lack of time but he got close and only took one wound.
As someone who suffered through an ass codex in 5e I'll suffer through another ass codex through 6e and hope that I don't have yet another ass codex in 7e.
If we're resorting to slinging unfunny image macros around now, then I have the perfect response to that:
Seriously though. The codex is fine. The problem is the really overpowered codices like Grey Knights, Necrons, Blood Angels, Tau and Eldar. If GW made it up to that level, people would be bitching that it was OP. As it happens, they made a balanced, well-written codex and so everybody complained it was a massive nerf despite that fact that it's a million times better than the last 'dex (which was itself better than the godawful 4th ed 'dex).
To recap:
+Hive Crone, one of the best flying monstrous creatures in the game.
+Carnifexes, Mawlocs and Tyrannofexes get significant points decreases.
+Zoanthropes andVenomthropes both get points decreases and massive buffs.
+Some pretty nifty (if expensive) bio-artifacts.
+Exocrine gives us much-needed anti-terminator firepower.
+The Red Terror is back!
+Pyschic powers are pretty good.
+Termagaunts are now dirt cheap.
+Hormagaunts are also cheaper, although giving them Toxin Sacs brings them to the same cost as before.
+Crushing Claws are now actually good (and make up for MCs loss of Armourbane by default).
+Tyrant Guard can take Crushing Claws.
+Venom Cannons are no longer restricted when penetrating vehicle armour.
+Mawlocs now more destructive.
+Old One Eye and Deathleaper are now HQ, which is cool.
+Trygon Primes can be heavily upgraded.
+Biovores are great now.
-Slight points increases on a few units, the only really significant one being the Tervigon.
-No BRB powers.
-No more Mycetic Spores (although they were useless on most units anyway).
-Ymgarl Genestealers are gone (not much use to begin with).
-Parasite of Mortrex is gone (totally useless anyway, who cares?).
-Doom of Malan'Tai is gone (OK, this one IS kinda sad).
Kain wrote: You forgot the massive swarmlord nerf.
Rest in peace Primarch slaying Swarmstar.
Massive Sawrmlord nerf? You mean the fact he no longer forces rerolls of invun saves?
Not a huge loss, I'll be honest. And let's face it, if he were a unit for any other codex people would be crying "ZOMG THE OP".
Price bump, no more BRB powers to allow him to kill the forgeworld primarchs mano e mano.
Now he pretty much loses to Abaddon outright, forget about killing Horus.
He costs exactly the same as before: 280 points.
And considering that the Tyranids weren't even in the galaxy at the time of the Horus Heresy, the Forge World Primarch comparison is totally redundant. The Primarchs are only meant for Horus Heresy games, not standard 40K.
And considering that the Tyranids weren't even in the galaxy at the time of the Horus Heresy
Not true . The legions fought against tyranid scout fleet that was imprisoned by one of the eldar races .Fenris krakens and Catachan devils are left overs from tyranids scout fleets and Fenris fauna was the same it is now , even durning the golden age.
Kain wrote: You forgot the massive swarmlord nerf.
Rest in peace Primarch slaying Swarmstar.
Massive Sawrmlord nerf? You mean the fact he no longer forces rerolls of invun saves?
Not a huge loss, I'll be honest. And let's face it, if he were a unit for any other codex people would be crying "ZOMG THE OP".
Price bump, no more BRB powers to allow him to kill the forgeworld primarchs mano e mano.
Now he pretty much loses to Abaddon outright, forget about killing Horus.
He costs exactly the same as before: 280 points.
And considering that the Tyranids weren't even in the galaxy at the time of the Horus Heresy, the Forge World Primarch comparison is totally redundant. The Primarchs are only meant for Horus Heresy games, not standard 40K.
It's worthwhile as a beatstick comparison. And honestly, nobody I know who uses the 30k armies really bothers with the "no 40k" rules. It's easy to treat them as a very different MEQ codex that shines at higher point games.
Beforehand an Iron Arm+Warp speed or Endurance Swarmlord could take on a Primarch and win given some luck, back when he was awesome. I actually remember beating Angron before, which tickled me pink alright.
Now he loses the moment Skarbrand scratches him thanks to instant death and the complete loss of any and all eternal warrior from the entire book. That's rather lame.
Kain wrote: It's worthwhile as a beatstick comparison. And honestly, nobody I know who uses the 30k armies really bothers with the "no 40k" rules. It's easy to them as a very different MEQ codex that shines at higher point games.
Beforehand an Iron Arm+Warp speed or Endurance Swarmlord could take on a Primarch and win given some luck, back when he was awesome. I actually remember beating Angron before, which tickled me pink alright.
Now he loses the moment Skarbrand scratches him thanks to instant death and the complete loss of any and all eternal warrior from the entire book. That's rather lame.
Or heck, If the swarmlord gets in base contact to a Nercon lord with a mind scarab shackle and has a 50% chance to instant death himself. A monster beatstick that costs more than a land raider gets punked by a guy that costs less than half his points
If we're resorting to slinging unfunny image macros around now, then I have the perfect response to that:
Seriously though. The codex is fine. The problem is the really overpowered codices like Grey Knights, Necrons, Blood Angels, Tau and Eldar. If GW made it up to that level, people would be bitching that it was OP. As it happens, they made a balanced, well-written codex and so everybody complained it was a massive nerf despite that fact that it's a million times better than the last 'dex (which was itself better than the godawful 4th ed 'dex).
To recap:
+Hive Crone, one of the best flying monstrous creatures in the game.
+Carnifexes, Mawlocs and Tyrannofexes get significant points decreases.
+Zoanthropes andVenomthropes both get points decreases and massive buffs.
+Some pretty nifty (if expensive) bio-artifacts.
+Exocrine gives us much-needed anti-terminator firepower.
+The Red Terror is back!
+Pyschic powers are pretty good.
+Termagaunts are now dirt cheap.
+Hormagaunts are also cheaper, although giving them Toxin Sacs brings them to the same cost as before.
+Crushing Claws are now actually good (and make up for MCs loss of Armourbane by default).
+Tyrant Guard can take Crushing Claws.
+Venom Cannons are no longer restricted when penetrating vehicle armour.
+Mawlocs now more destructive.
+Old One Eye and Deathleaper are now HQ, which is cool.
+Trygon Primes can be heavily upgraded.
+Biovores are great now.
-Slight points increases on a few units, the only really significant one being the Tervigon.
-No BRB powers.
-No more Mycetic Spores (although they were useless on most units anyway).
-Ymgarl Genestealers are gone (not much use to begin with).
-Parasite of Mortrex is gone (totally useless anyway, who cares?).
-Doom of Malan'Tai is gone (OK, this one IS kinda sad).
What exactly is the problem again?
Lord, this thread is a bunch of blah.
I'm on your side in general, I think the complaining is hugely overdone. But this post is utter twaddle.
Zoanthropes are demonstrably nerfed - a single can't cast their trademark power any more, and a brood has lost all felxibility re secondary powers
Ymgarls were a staple of many lists because they could assault first turn
Mycetic spores were great for zoantrhopes, t get close to armour, carnifexes, and the doom.
You haven't even mentioned the huge price increase for Primes.
I wonder if you have much experience with 'nids if you can make posts like this one.
+Hive Crone, one of the best flying monstrous creatures in the game.
Not much of a statement here, outside of the crone and harpy are there any other monsterous flying creatures in the game that aren't a special character?
You have the crone and harpy that means either one has a 50/50 chance of being "the best monsterous creature in the game" Just because if might be the only contender doesn't magically make it better. Flying vehicles which are the best comparison all tend to trump the flying creatures.
+Carnifexes, Mawlocs and Tyrannofexes get significant points decreases.
They were unplayable before, now they are playable but still a bit lackluster and they all compete for the same slots.
+Zoanthropes andVenomthropes both get points decreases and massive buffs.
The Venomthropes are better but still fragile, Zoanthropes I totally disagree on all or nothing warplance is not good and no access to non-tyranid powers is major downgrade.
+Termagaunts are now dirt cheap.
+Hormagaunts are also cheaper, although giving them Toxin Sacs brings them to the same cost as before.
And are worse than ever due to the severity of the new IB rules. You get a points reduction for them being naked, if you equip them as their previous version there's no change. So you get a larger disadvantage than before with for no benefit, what a great change.
+Old One Eye and Deathleaper are now HQ, which is cool.
Maybe ignoring the fact they are HQ units without synapse, so mostly useless in fulfilling a leadership role. Isn't leadership supposed to be the point of HQ units? In order to make either of them effective you need to baby sit them with another synapse which ups the overall points and reliance on another fragile unit. What an awesome deal.
-Slight points increases on a few units, the only really significant one being the Tervigon.
-No BRB powers.
-No more Mycetic Spores (although they were useless on most units anyway).
-Ymgarl Genestealers are gone (not much use to begin with).
-Parasite of Mortrex is gone (totally useless anyway, who cares?).
-Doom of Malan'Tai is gone (OK, this one IS kinda sad).
What exactly is the problem again?
I think you just quoted a large part of it right there, plus you glossed over several others.
+Hive Crone, one of the best flying monstrous creatures in the game.
Not much of a statement here, outside of the crone and harpy are there any other monsterous flying creatures in the game that aren't a special character?
You have the crone and harpy that means either one has a 50/50 chance of being "the best monsterous creature in the game" Just because if might be the only contender doesn't magically make it better. Flying vehicles which are the best comparison all tend to trump the flying creatures.
[/img]
The other FMCs are all Daemons (LoC, BTs, Flying Princes), and the Flyrant.
+Hive Crone, one of the best flying monstrous creatures in the game.
Not much of a statement here, outside of the crone and harpy are there any other monsterous flying creatures in the game that aren't a special character?
You have the crone and harpy that means either one has a 50/50 chance of being "the best monsterous creature in the game" Just because if might be the only contender doesn't magically make it better. Flying vehicles which are the best comparison all tend to trump the flying creatures.
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The other FMCs are all Daemons (LoC, BTs, Flying Princes), and the Flyrant.
Which part of non-special character (HQ choice) did you not understand?
Please show me a MC flyer that isn't a HQ choice to compare with the crone or harpy so we can see if they are the best flyer in the game, I'll wait.
+Hive Crone, one of the best flying monstrous creatures in the game.
Not much of a statement here, outside of the crone and harpy are there any other monsterous flying creatures in the game that aren't a special character?
You have the crone and harpy that means either one has a 50/50 chance of being "the best monsterous creature in the game" Just because if might be the only contender doesn't magically make it better. Flying vehicles which are the best comparison all tend to trump the flying creatures.
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The other FMCs are all Daemons (LoC, BTs, Flying Princes), and the Flyrant.
Which part of special character (HQ choice) did you not understand?
Ah I thought you meant special character as in the rules definition, not an HQ choice.
Though Princes can be (re: always are) heavy support in a daemon army.
After hearing all the negativity about the new Nids dex I was not expecting much from a game I saw last night where Tau and Nids where facing off.
But Wow the Nids ate his lunch and raided his fridge for more! Especially that Death Leaper running amok in his back field!
Zakiriel wrote: After hearing all the negativity about the new Nids dex I was not expecting much from a game I saw last night where Tau and Nids where facing off.
But Wow the Nids ate his lunch and raided his fridge for more! Especially that Death Leaper running amok in his back field!
Zakiriel wrote: After hearing all the negativity about the new Nids dex I was not expecting much from a game I saw last night where Tau and Nids where facing off.
But Wow the Nids ate his lunch and raided his fridge for more! Especially that Death Leaper running amok in his back field!
Anecdote is not a synonym of evidence.
He won in spite of, not because of his book.
Assertions are not evidence. They're possibly the one thing that's even less convincing than anecdotes.
Zakiriel wrote: After hearing all the negativity about the new Nids dex I was not expecting much from a game I saw last night where Tau and Nids where facing off.
But Wow the Nids ate his lunch and raided his fridge for more! Especially that Death Leaper running amok in his back field!
Anecdote is not a synonym of evidence.
He won in spite of, not because of his book.
Assertions are not evidence.
Can you prove that the Tyranid codex is on an equal footing with the Tau book? I myself, being cynical, certainly don't buy into the laughable idea of GW having the competence to make a game without rather obvious tiers of "good, okay, bad".
Or can we say for certain that the Tau list was even being played competently or built properly?
His "evidence" is not only an anecdote, it is also such an incomplete one as to be useless.
+Hive Crone, one of the best flying monstrous creatures in the game.
Not much of a statement here, outside of the crone and harpy are there any other monsterous flying creatures in the game that aren't a special character?
You have the crone and harpy that means either one has a 50/50 chance of being "the best monsterous creature in the game" Just because if might be the only contender doesn't magically make it better. Flying vehicles which are the best comparison all tend to trump the flying creatures.
It's still a damn good unit, close to a Heldrake if you ask me, and it also gives us much-needed anti-air.
+Carnifexes, Mawlocs and Tyrannofexes get significant points decreases.
They were unplayable before, now they are playable but still a bit lackluster and they all compete for the same slots.
They weren't "unplayable", just sub-optimal and overcosted. They've been hugely improved by the new 'dex- a Tyrannofex with regeneration is an absolutely beastly, nigh-indestructible linebreaker for less than a Land Raider.
+Zoanthropes andVenomthropes both get points decreases and massive buffs.
The Venomthropes are better but still fragile, Zoanthropes I totally disagree on all or nothing warplance is not good and no access to non-tyranid powers is major downgrade.
Umm...Warp Blast/Lance is exactly the same as before. The only difference is AP2 instead of AP1. Plus, in a brood they can get plenty of shots, and they can take an extra power as well as the Warp blast/Lance, whereas they had to replace it before. Also, as mentioned above, most BRB powers were kinda meh anyway.
+Termagaunts are now dirt cheap.
+Hormagaunts are also cheaper, although giving them Toxin Sacs brings them to the same cost as before.
And are worse than ever due to the severity of the new IB rules. You get a points reduction for them being naked, if you equip them as their previous version there's no change. So you get a larger disadvantage than before with for no benefit, what a great change.[/quote}
Then may I suggest you follow the single most important bit of tactics advice when playing Tyranids (of ANY edition) and not let them out of Synapse range? Keeping everything in Synapse range has always been the lynchpin of Tyranid tactics.
+Old One Eye and Deathleaper are now HQ, which is cool.
Maybe ignoring the fact they are HQ units without synapse, so mostly useless in fulfilling a leadership role. Isn't leadership supposed to be the point of HQ units? In order to make either of them effective you need to baby sit them with another synapse which ups the overall points and reliance on another fragile unit. What an awesome deal.
On the other hand it is much more fluff-friendly, as Old One Eye was a living rallying point for the surviving Tyranids on Calth, and Deathleaper is meant as a vanguard leader/master assassin.
-Slight points increases on a few units, the only really significant one being the Tervigon.
-No BRB powers.
-No more Mycetic Spores (although they were useless on most units anyway).
-Ymgarl Genestealers are gone (not much use to begin with).
-Parasite of Mortrex is gone (totally useless anyway, who cares?).
-Doom of Malan'Tai is gone (OK, this one IS kinda sad).
What exactly is the problem again?
think you just quoted a large part of it right there, plus you glossed over several others.
These are all rather minor problems with what is otherwise a fairly decent book. I mean, it's not an amazing book, but it's certainly playable.
I'll recap for you:
Again, unfunny image macros, and not supplying any real argument beyond "lol it sux".
Kain wrote: The loss of BRB powers is hardly a "minor" loss.
Most of the lists in pre-new book 6e were heavily reliant on biomancy and the codex powers certainly don't match the buffing madness of biomancy.
I shall quote one of my favourite lines in reference to the Tyranids:
Adapt or Die.
Completely invalidating the playstyle of the majority is hardly an example of good updating procedure. You instead encourage other playstyles to develop by making them just as viable.
I'm of the school of "if everything is overpowered, nothing is." So everything should be built to the over the top standards of taudar rather than pretend nothing's wrong and keep on building things to a lower standard. If every unit was made to the standards of the riptide and baledrake, the game would be a lot more balanced.
This is awesome! Really sums up how i feel in one picture. Obviously its not all bad, but overall i'm sure we are all disappointed by whats happened. I think this picture will be around for a long time to come.
Zakiriel wrote: After hearing all the negativity about the new Nids dex I was not expecting much from a game I saw last night where Tau and Nids where facing off.
But Wow the Nids ate his lunch and raided his fridge for more! Especially that Death Leaper running amok in his back field!
Waite they didn't marker light him to death the next turn? Thats kinda what i figured would be his fate against tau, this is good to hear!
Most of the "won" games are probably against inexperienced players. I was just told that Nids got an amazing victory. This is the conversation:
GW employee: *describes marine army he just rofl stomped*
Me: Wait, hold on, orange marines? Tall lanky kid?
GWE: Yes why?
Me: He doesn't even own a rulebook...
Kain wrote: The loss of BRB powers is hardly a "minor" loss.
Most of the lists in pre-new book 6e were heavily reliant on biomancy and the codex powers certainly don't match the buffing madness of biomancy.
I shall quote one of my favourite lines in reference to the Tyranids:
Adapt or Die.
Completely invalidating the playstyle of the majority is hardly an example of good updating procedure. You instead encourage other playstyles to develop by making them just as viable.
I'm of the school of "if everything is overpowered, nothing is." So everything should be built to the over the top standards of taudar rather than pretend nothing's wrong and keep on building things to a lower standard. If every unit was made to the standards of the riptide and baledrake, the game would be a lot more balanced.
As much as I hate to agree, this does make sense.
What I think may have happened is that GW realized how absurd the last two alien codices were, so they over compensated by making the last one underwhelming. What they should have done is just go bat-gak and gave all of the TMCs T7 with EW. Or just re-release the 4th ed codex and update that to 6th ed.
You have some pretty skewed ideas on what made Nids work. You can have fun games with them and jerk it to the fluff all you want but they won't be competitive in the current environment.
The adapt or die line is cute, the problem is that in order to adapt to a different strategy you need to be given options within the rules first. GW decided to nerf everything that previously worked while not giving any proper options to replace it with.
You have some pretty skewed ideas on what made Nids work. You can have fun games with them and jerk it to the fluff all you want but they won't be competitive in the current environment.
The adapt or die line is cute, the problem is that in order to adapt to a different strategy you need to be given options within the rules first. GW decided to nerf everything that previously worked while not giving any proper options to replace it with.
If anything they removed a few amount of options that nids had for playstyles (such as spore armies)
You have some pretty skewed ideas on what made Nids work. You can have fun games with them and jerk it to the fluff all you want but they won't be competitive in the current environment.
The adapt or die line is cute, the problem is that in order to adapt to a different strategy you need to be given options within the rules first. GW decided to nerf everything that previously worked while not giving any proper options to replace it with.
If anything they removed a few amount of options that nids had for playstyles (such as spore armies)
Yep, im expecting monobuilds out of this codex. Chances are we might get something good out of one of the three datalsates, if we do it will probably be better to the point where people just spam it out like eldar to try to be competitive. It would be nice to have a few different types of units that can hold their own so we can swap around what type of army we want to play and still have a chance.
40K has never, NEVER been intended as a majorly competitive game. Quite frankly I find the concept of playing any game, tabletop or otherwise, "competitively" to be utterly slowed, but when the CREATORS of the game have outright stated that it's designed for casual/fluffy games, it's laughable. 40K's selling point has never been amazing, revolutionary gameplay, it's the universe and the backstory (and the models) that everybody loves, and is why people play the game. As a similar example, take EarthBound; gameplay-wise it's an unremarkable RPG. What sells it is the quirky world, funny characters and charming atmosphere (and a certain nightmare-inducing eldritch abomination).
TL;DR: If you'r eplaying 40K because you want a competitive, perfectly balanced game then you're playing the wrong game, and should probably go play chess instead.
If anything they removed a few amount of options that nids had for playstyles (such as spore armies)
Pulling the spores out was a very painful move IMO as it eliminated a very sound tactic for dealing with vehicles armor. Being able to drop a fex or zoans into threat range was a huge boost, now everything has to foot slog and pray they can last long enough to get in range which is really tough against Guard and Tau.
I also find the elimination of the spores to be terribly un-fluffy, part of the image built around Tyranids was that the massive waves of them falling from the sky and erupting from the ground. It would be like eliminating pods from the space marines, or armor from guard which is something that is well established in the fluff as being a primary invasion tactic.
SickSix wrote: How many people crying "the sky is falling" have actually played with the new book?
"Sky is falling" or this is worse? I play Tomb Kings too, and despite Cruddace's work to make me hate everything about both armies I play, they CAN win.
Does that make them good books? Does that prove they are worth paying more for DLC supplements to add what was missing in the first place? Does that mean that in spite of people thinking it is sub-par work, they should start lying about legitimate issues?
editing to add: No one I have played against has much of a chance if we switch armies and play - few want to. I ROFL stomp them when they use mine. I have lost. . .I think. Bear in mind I just said I win with Tyranids and Tomb Kings, and it is not rare.
SickSix wrote: How many people crying "the sky is falling" have actually played with the new book?
I have...it's essentially resetting the nid book back to what it was during 5e. Can work under skilled hands. but faces an uphill battle against most of the top tier lists and has some rather glaring, exploitable holes in it.
It's not horrific, but it's incredibly underwhelming and another example of why Cruddace should stick to Space Marines and Guardsmen.
Hey I'd argue certain games can be competitive . If not, there is no such thing as competitive (besides school grades and jobs (not counting sports either as if a game can't be competitive neither can sports )).
Just to say this quickly, I have no gripes with people playing the game competitively. If that is what tickles your fancy, have a blast! But I must say, I never got how being designed for casua/fluffy games suddenly meant it was fine to throw away the notion of ballance! Think about it. What's fun about an unbalanced game. Want to know what is fluffy? A friggin Thousand Son army let alone a Tzeentchian Space Marine army. Do it I dare you. Play it 0 chaos daemon allies and no other superior marks. Play it and watch as every enemy curb stomps you 90% of the time. Do you think that's fun? Do you think that's intriguing? I don't think anybody is expecting perfect balance as perfect balance is impossible. Especially for something as big as 40k. When you have several armies that all exist at once there is absolutely zero way to truly balance them out. But you know what? That doesn't mean that they should not strive. Codices made for competitive functions are entertaining because that means my ccasual/fluffy games become balanced! No longer do I have to fear my friend is thinking of buying 3 riptides because he likes the models all the while I think oh god I'm playing CSM and I don't even use Heldrakes how they feth will I take that on with my codex without succumbing to freakin nurgle? I don't want every game to be a victory, heck, I hate it when I have a crushing victory but seriously.... Do you think this game is balanced for casual/fluffy games? It's not! The rules are so horribly developed that one Tzeentch chariot becomes outright unplayable as it can only fire when not moving except it has AV10 all sides and is a close ranged shooter!
40K has never, NEVER been intended as a majorly competitive game. Quite frankly I find the concept of playing any game, tabletop or otherwise, "competitively" to be utterly slowed, but when the CREATORS of the game have outright stated that it's designed for casual/fluffy games, it's laughable. 40K's selling point has never been amazing, revolutionary gameplay, it's the universe and the backstory (and the models) that everybody loves, and is why people play the game. As a similar example, take EarthBound; gameplay-wise it's an unremarkable RPG. What sells it is the quirky world, funny characters and charming atmosphere (and a certain nightmare-inducing eldritch abomination).
TL;DR: If you'r eplaying 40K because you want a competitive, perfectly balanced game then you're playing the wrong game, and should probably go play chess instead.
Ah yes, because the game was always competitively awful, GW should spend no effort into not making it so, and anyone who disagrees with this notion clearly should just play other games because they don't get the game. Well guys, thread's over, because we don't deserve to complain because GW shouldn't be expected to competently manage it's product like any other business. Nope, just better take it or leave because that's what REAL 40kers do.
Oh and okay then so if you want a fluffy game let's have it. My 3000 points of SM surprise ambushing your IG/Tau/whatever. You can pick from 1000 points ol' pal! (let's be honest, it is always humerous that SM, Eldar, DE, Tau are always equal points to the enemy. Think about it. Every single one of these bases their army around primarily ambushes, surprise attacks, and shock trooping (you could also add CSM to this last as well actually) yet every last time they have equal points! It's rather silly but imagine this game without it xD)
Squigsquasher wrote: 40K has never, NEVER been intended as a majorly competitive game.
I'm not talking about being competitive in a tournament sense. I'm talking about having enough internal balance so it's not a one sided blow out even in "friendly" and "fun" games. It isn't much fun when your army exists solely to serve as a shooting gallery for the opponent.
No wargame is ever completely balanced unless both sides are playing perfect mirrors, but you can establish enough of a balance that it keeps it engaging and fun for both players. Currently Tyranids are like playing a game like monopoly where each player gets a d6 for movement but you only get a d4, you also get 30% less starting funds. Yes you can still play and with godly luck you may even win, but the reality is you are at a large disadvantage from the beginning and most games you'll curl up and die before you ever get the chance to participate beyond being a token presence.
Saying 40K isn't meant to be competitive reminds me of the time Kevin Smith said Jersey Girl wasn't meant for critics.
When you're say that a game with a victory condition between two players using a collection, that they've invested a lot of time and money into, is not meant to be competitive then you're effectively saying the game is a festering pile of broken rules and imbalanced units.
There are games that aren't competitive. Like Munchkin. But Munchkin doesn't cost an arm and a leg and require I dedicate hours into painting, and space for all the models and painting supplies.
You have some pretty skewed ideas on what made Nids work. You can have fun games with them and jerk it to the fluff all you want but they won't be competitive in the current environment.
The adapt or die line is cute, the problem is that in order to adapt to a different strategy you need to be given options within the rules first. GW decided to nerf everything that previously worked while not giving any proper options to replace it with.
If anything they removed a few amount of options that nids had for playstyles (such as spore armies)
Yep, im expecting monobuilds out of this codex. Chances are we might get something good out of one of the three datalsates, if we do it will probably be better to the point where people just spam it out like eldar to try to be competitive. It would be nice to have a few different types of units that can hold their own so we can swap around what type of army we want to play and still have a chance.
Competitive wise that will be no different to last edition, or any competitive army. Competitive armies take there best units and stick as many as possible in, up to the point they can not sacrifice any more utility. The only real competitive problem the codex will have is keeping synapse up (should it need it)
Non- Competitive there are different play styles still, and viable units depending on what your wanting to do, there are more viable units than the last codex - I know people don't think much of points decreases but in this case this has made units viable which were just too costly for utility previously. The only type which was lost was spodding in. If you want something similar now outflank the devigants. Others are based around pinning etc, and this is without the formations.
I played a competitive 1850 WS list today - and while I did lose I can happily say
-It was tight enough for me to remain confident - and look forward to the rematch.
-I was trying out new units and know what to adjust out - Was not well optimised running 1 of many things (Including 1 FHT, GS, 1 Crone. etc)
-I played bad, forgot too many normal things (Like.. moving) while trying to remember new things. Resulting in bad things happening.
-I am inexperienced against W.Scars (In general. Assault a TC (Oh that has a flamer... Oh super... Oh whut roll 6 is ID? Glad I charged him)
Non competitive the codex will not have a problem power wise.
40K has never, NEVER been intended as a majorly competitive game. Quite frankly I find the concept of playing any game, tabletop or otherwise, "competitively" to be utterly slowed, but when the CREATORS of the game have outright stated that it's designed for casual/fluffy games, it's laughable.
So, why do they even include point costs?
Why not just tell players they can use whatever they like?
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But there is little difference between armies played in tournaments and outside of them . Maybe a starting dude will not have the revenant , but he will counts as it soon or buy it for cheap . A tau player may not start with buying half and eldar army and 5 riptides to get 3-4 builds . But the tides , the seers , the missilisides , 
