As I've said before, I love the Sisters of Battle and I love tanks. Having upgunned the Heavy Support and Fast Attack slots with the Soritas Predator and Oriflamme Scout Tank, I decided to try my hand at Lords or rather Ladies of War -- plus a new Heavy Support assault vehicle for our Repentia and a whole list of liturgical wargear that only such massive war machines can carry.
[UPDATE: The final (?) versions of most of these units -- and two dozen others -- are now in my Sororitas fandex/expandnex]
Armoured Pulpit: 50 points Devout mechanics have converted one of this vehicle's cupolas or hatches into a heavily armoured pulpit from which a preacher can deliver inspiring, terrifying, and massively amplified sermons over the roar the heat of battle. All friendly, Emperor-worshipping units* within 6" of a vehicle with an Armoured Pulpit gain the War Hymns special rule. However, they may only use the "The Emperor Protects" and "Righteousness of the Emperor" hymns. An Armoured Pulpit counts as a weapon for the purpose of the Vehicle Damage table and may be destroyed by a "weapon destroyed" result. *An Emperor-worshipping unit is any of the following: - any unit from Codex:Adepta Sororitas, Codex:Imperial Guard, or Codex:Inquisition - any unit from a Space Marines detachment using Black Templars chapter tactics - any unit from an Adeptus Arbites fandex. Any other units lack the faith in the divinity of the Emperor required to benefit from these rules.
Holy Light: 25 points As the massive war machine crashes into the enemy lines, its gilded armour gleaming and its sacramental spotlights blazing, the eyes of the evildoers are dazzled by a pure white light and their ears fill with celestial music. Then the faithful charge out of the vehicle and rip them apart. [spoiler] Assault vehicles only (including open-topped vehicles). When a unit charges out of a transport with Holy Light, it counts as having assault grenades and inflicts a Blind attack on all enemies it is charging, resolved at Initiative 10.
Icon of Courage: 20 points Looming literally larger than life, these holy images of Imperial saints past look sternly down on today's combatants and forbid them to waver for an instant. Friendly units within 12" of a vehicle with Icons of Courage re-roll failed Morale, Fear, and Pinning tests.
Vox Dei: 30 points A soul-stirring, ear-splitting array of high-powered laud hailers inspires Sororitas at great distances. All friendly units within 24" of a vehicle equipped with a Vox Dei re-roll failed Leadership tests when attempting an Act of Faith.
Design notes: Except for Holy Light, whose cost is basically a big fat guess, these are all scaled-up versions of existing wargear/priests, with point costs increased to reflect increased ranges. Remember that doubling the range quadruples the area of effect and even the same range counts for more when measured from all sides of vehicle rather than from a single model!
Deliverer Assault Shrine: 200 points Ugly juggernauts converted from civilian mining vehicles, their hulls covered first with crude slabs of heavy armour and then with layer upon layer of devotional decoration, Delivers can lurch across the battlefield with surprising speed. Flamers roaring, they slam into enemy positions and drop their front ramps to disgorge Sororitas shock troops or hate-crazed Frateris. BS:4 Armour: 13/13/12 HP:4
Spoiler:
Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank, Transport)
Unit Composition: 1 Deliverer Assault Shrine
Wargear: Twin-linked multi-melta Two flamestorm cannons Searchlight Smoke launchers
Special Rules: Assault Vehicle Shield of Faith
Transport Capacity: 12 models
Options: May replace twin-linked multi-melta with twin-linked heavy bolter or twin-linked heavy flamer: free. May take items from the Adepta Sororitas Vehicle Equipment List. May take items from the Rolling Chapel Equipment List.
Design notes: Basically a pious poor man's Land Raider Redeemer, with worse armour and no Machine Spirit -- but with access to all the sacramental nasties of the Rolling Chapel Equipment List. Points cost is pure guesstimate.
Sororitas Baneblade Variants
Spoiler:
Adepta Sororitas super-heavy vehicles are moving temples of destruction. Fortunately for heretics, they are also rare. Between the Sisterhood's preference for short-range urban fighting in defense of shrines and the Ecclesiarchy's on-and-off relationship with the Machine Cult, the Orders Militant actually have fewer superheavies per 100,000 infantry than the Imperial Guard. In fact, most Sororitas "Ladies of War" are converted from the Baneblade and its variants, and they are rarely provided directly by the Mechanicum: Instead, the Sisters tend to acquire former Imperial Guard super-heavy tanks, whether by recovering wrecked ones from the battlefield, capturing them from traitor regiments, or simply "requisitioning" them from overawed Guard commanders and never giving them back.
A Sororitas Baneblade Variant starts with an Imperial Guard super-heavy datasheet but adds the following special rules: Retributor Crew: Increase Ballistic Skill to 4. Rolling Chapel: May take items from the Rolling Chapel Equipment List. Shield of Faith: As per Codex:Adepta Sororitas. Sponsons of Fire: If a Sororitas Baneblade Variant takes sponsons, replace each lascannon with a Flamestorm Cannon.
Storm Queen: 560 points The Sororitas's favorite superheavy vehicle is the Imperial Guard Stormlord, because its troop bay can either carry squads of sharpshooting Retributors or be converted to hold Exorcist missile launchers or even a towering minaret for a Ministorum Priest.
Spoiler:
As Imperial Guard Stormlord (Escalationpg. 111) except
Special rule: Sororitas Baneblade Variant
Options: A Storm Queen may replace its troop bay with one of the following, reducing its transport capacity to 20 models and losing all fire points:
- Kriegsminaret: 100 points All friendly, Faithful units within 12" of a Storm Queen with a Kriegsminaret gain +1 Ld and the War Hymns special rule. However, they may only use the "The Emperor Protects" and "Righteousness of the Emperor" hymns. Shooting attacks may target a Kriegsminaret separately from the vehicle on which it is mounted: It has T:6 W:3 Sv:6++. Also, any shooting attacks are at -1 to Ballistic Skill because of the height and mast-like thinness of the minaret.
Design notes: Some IG superheavies can replace their sponson lasguns -- worth about 40 points, if you go by the cost of Predator sponsons -- with targeters to gain +1 BS. In addition, Shield of Faith seems like it should be worth at least 40 points for such a massive vehicle: Destroyer weapons may ignore it, but the majority of things fired at a superheavy won't. So +80 points total.
Flameblade: 585 points [i]This Baneblade variant replaces the original's cannon with weapons more to the Sororitas' fiery taste.
Spoiler:
As Imperial Guard Blaneblade (Escalationpg. 79) except
Replace turreted Baneblade Cannon with Inferno Gun: Template S:7 AP:3 Primary, Super-Torrent* Super-Torrent: As per Torrent, but the template may be placed 18" away.
Design notes: The Flameblade pays only 20 points for BS4, rather than 40 as for the Storm Queen, because its main weapon uses a template.
Sword of Light: 505 points This modified Shadowsword replaces the giant laser of the Volcano Cannon with the more Sisterhood-friendly Melta Cannon.
Spoiler:
As Imperial Guard Shadowsword (Escalationpg. 107) except
Replace Volcano Cannon with Melta Cannon: 72" S:10 AP:1 Ordnance 1, 10" Blast, Titanic Melta*, Primary Weapon *Titanic Melta: The Melta Cannon rolls 3d6+10 for armour penetration against targets directly under the hole in the center of the blast template, 2d6+10 against all other targets under the template.
Special rule: Sororitas Baneblade Variant
Options: A Sword of Light may not take targeters.
[i]Design notes: The Melta Cannon seems less potent than the Volcano Cannon, so I gave the Sword of Light a 20 point discount from the +80 cost I used for the Storm Queen.
Edited to allow Codex:Inquisition to benefit from the Armoured Puplit & Kriegsminaret, and to make both destroyable in combat.
Interesting. That being said I would like to see a Lord of War in the form of a living saint (sort of like in dawn of war). There is also a black libary novel that has a living saint taking down a baneblade.
I don't know about that really, Living Saints are buff but organical Lords of War are things like C'tan and Primarchs. That's on a whole different level.
I am okay with Sororitas Superheavies though, but I'd recommend you use the Apocalypse profiles for the main weapons (The melta cannon and inferno gun, that is.)
Furthermore, Flamestorm Cannons are not Lascannon equivalents. Heavy Flamers are. Given how IG superheavies can be equipped, I'd say a TL heavy flamer would seem roughly balanced compared to a Lascannon.
1) What's the Living Saint in Dawn of War? I don't want to overshadow Celestine, and I'm a treadhead rather than a hero/monster fan, but it's a very interesting option.
2) Weapons profiles -- oops. I'm using obsolete versions, it looks like. Err, anywhere I could find the 6th edition stats besides the Apocalypse book itself?
3) Not sure about TL heavy flamer = lascanoon. Looking at the Space Marine Codex, a lascannon is twice the price of a heavy flamer (as an infantry Heavy Weapon) and TL =/= two weapons.
No, I fear Apocalypse is the book you need if you want the stats for these weapons. It should be noted that the Melta Cannon is far more powerful than the Inferno Gun; the former is a Reaver primary weapon while the latter is designed for a Warhound arm.
The Living Saint in Dawn of War is basically the Sisters' strongest melee unit. It gets wrecked by a Bloodthirster, but it is very nasty against many lesser foes.
I'd say TL Heavy Flamers are most equivalent to a Lascannon. A Flamestorm Cannon would both be too large for the sponson's turret and is honestly a fair amount more powerful; it is replacing the TL lascannons on a Land Raider, and IMO the Flamestorm Cannon is far better.
Besides, of course the Heavy Flamers are cheaper. High strAT weaponry is always more expensive. But if you want an anti-infantry equivalent, I insist the TL heavy flamers are closest to it.
The reason I suggested a Living saint is cause I don't want the sisters super heavies to just be Guard Superheavy with a little extra. The living saint gives sisters a unique lord of war.
1) What's the Living Saint in Dawn of War? I don't want to overshadow Celestine, and I'm a treadhead rather than a hero/monster fan, but it's a very interesting option.
A freakishly huge, actual Angel that is fairly easily defeated. Wasn't a fan.
Necrosis wrote: Well we could also just make the Living Saint Lord of War almost as good as a Primarch but also comes with a bunch of army buffs as well.
Why? Nothing I have seen suggests that they'd be close to a Primarch in prowess. Especially considering how easy it is to drop Celestine in-game and stomp her down if she tries to rise, as well as killing the Living Saint in DoW.
Game mechanics are game mechanics, but they are like that everywhere.
Necrosis wrote: Well we could also just make the Living Saint Lord of War almost as good as a Primarch but also comes with a bunch of army buffs as well.
Why? Nothing I have seen suggests that they'd be close to a Primarch in prowess. Especially considering how easy it is to drop Celestine in-game and stomp her down if she tries to rise, as well as killing the Living Saint in DoW.
Game mechanics are game mechanics, but they are like that everywhere.
Alright let's disregard the living saint from DOW (lets not forget a land raider in that game can take on a baneblade in that game).
So then that leaves Saint Celestine who's rules have change from time to time. Alright she can sometimes be easy to take down but I place the argument that each living saint is unique from each other, that no two living saints are even similar in terms of power. In one novel we have a living saint taking down a baneblade with nothing but a sword and a few guardsmen with some lasguns. So to me having a living saint with the stats of WS 6 or 7, BS 5, S 5, T 5, W 5, I 6, A 5, LD 10, Sv 2+/4++ and having the indepent character rule doesn't seem to far out there. Not as powerful as a primarch (or a bloodthrister) but you can make that up by giving her army buffs and certain wargear ane special rules. Compared to other Lord of Wars she would be pretty inexpensive.
Necrosis wrote: In one novel we have a living saint taking down a baneblade with nothing but a sword and a few guardsmen with some lasguns.
We do??? What novel is this? It isn't that Gaunt one, is it?
Necrosis wrote: The reason I suggested a Living saint is cause I don't want the sisters super heavies to just be Guard Superheavy with a little extra. The living saint gives sisters a unique lord of war.
If you want a superheavy that's entirely SoB, look not further than this:
Spoiler:
The box on the right, specifically. Sorry for the small size.
Troike wrote:If you want a superheavy that's entirely SoB, look not further than this:
Spoiler:
The box on the right, specifically. Sorry for the small size.
I'm having a hard time reading that.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:She seems to have a statline roughly on par with a C'tan Shard.
A C'tan Shard is not a LoW.
LoW isn't just the stat lines is also their rules. A C'tan Shard doesn't have the Independent character rule which is what can seperate a Lord of War from other characters.
Troike wrote:
We do??? What novel is this? It isn't that Gaunt one, is it?
It is the Gaunt one, where the Living Saint is like a 19 year old girl who, for a very long time, just sort of pretends to be a Saint. And then is one. Though I think it was just "a tank", not a Baneblade.
Like the one in that amazing picture from Codex:Witch Hunters, yes. (Anyone have the file to embed?)
Those are awesome, but they make an Imperator Titan look low-key. They'd stretch the limits of Epic, and in 40K the onyl way to represent them on the tabletop would be to have another entire tabletop for the Assault Cathedral model.
By contrast, my writing up a poor man's Land Raider, three Baneblade variants, and a bunch of churchy bits to stick on them seems positively underpowered.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: I don't want a giant, glowing Living Saint as a Lord (Lady) of War because it's out of character for the Imperium in general and the Sororitas in particular. Even the Space Marines aren't superheroes, and a huge part of the Sisters' appeal is that they're ordinary human beings with extraordinary zeal. Giant glowy superheroes are fun, but they're appropriate for factions like Eldar and Chaos. The Imperium is about human-sized heroes -- even a 7" Marine is human-sized -- and giant, crude machinery holding the line against a universe of magic and nightmares.
Also also: any comment on the things I did write up, especially the vehicle upgrades that turn tanks into rolling chapels with pulpits and icons and mega-laud hailers to buff nearby troops ?
24" is maybe a bit too much for the vox dei. After all, it'd mean that with two of those you could make pretty much your entire army re-roll their AoF. I think either the price should be doubled or the range decreased to 18".
That's a good point. A single 24" radius bubble is 48" diameter, except you have to add the width of the tank base so it's actually an oval maybe 54" on its long axis and 52" on the narrow. You're right, two of those cover most of the gaming table....
Also, I'd love to see some kind of titan-sized penitent engine. I have no idea if such a thing exists in the fluff, but some kind of rusty metal behemoth with dozens of penitents bound to it doesn't sound out of place in 40K
Oh, boy, that would be seriously fethed up... Let's make that!
How would it work? In a standard Penitent Engine, the Penitent is the pilot. In a super heavy PE, what do you use the extra penitents for? Crazed thrashing does not good gunners make, though maybe the thing has flamers and blades scything every which way.
Armoured Pulpit: I tink that units from the following should also benefit:
Inquisition Codex should also benefit - likely all but Deamon hosts? Inquisitors are usually true believers
Same with Grey Knights? again not Deamon hosts?
Imperial Assassins
I like the variant IG Superheavy variants but I almost feeel they should be unique units with the Delverer (although I also kinda prefer the name Deliverence) as the best they can normally do.
A Penitent Titan woud be fun - although the Mechancius would hate it!
I have no idea at all if this fits with the lore, but I'm going to suggest it anyway:
What if there was a penitent engine-titan (penititan?) with several penitents bound to it, like one for each flamer, one for each insanely brutal close combat weapon and then a few with lame jobs such as operating the legs and power distribution and the like. Now, what if in the head of said penititan, there was a penitent psyker overseeing the whole process through some form of telepathy or mind control? I'd make for a logical explanation to how it functions (well, "logical"), and it would explain how the whole thing would be able to work with completely immobile crew stuck to separate areas.
But then again I'm relatively new to 40K, and it's quite likely that somewhere some institution of something (still having a hard time remembering what every adeptus somethingus does) forbids psykers from being put into penitent engines or somehow the penitent engine messes with the psyker's mind in some way that psychic powers become unusable...
Armoured Pulpit: ...
Inquisition Codex should also benefit - likely all but Deamon hosts? Inquisitors are usually true believers
Same with Grey Knights? again not Deamon hosts?
Imperial Assassins
Good point about the Inquisition. I'd been thinking of them as too cynical to be affected , but they're equally likely to be religious fanatics, and whether they're cynical or not they still grew up in an Emperor-worshipping culture (well, almost all of them, some do get recruited from really weird places).
Same, I presume, for Assassins. Though some may be too crazy to benefit ...
Grey Knights, I just don't know the lore well enough: do they worship the Emperor as God (like Black Templars) or "merely" revere him as the greatest human who ever lived?
2. Penitent Titan
A Penitent Titan woud be fun - although the Mechancius would hate it!
...
What if there was a penitent engine-titan (penititan?) with several penitents bound to it, ...Now, what if in the head of said penititan, there was a penitent psyker overseeing the whole process through some form of telepathy or mind control? I'd make for a logical explanation to how it functions (well, "logical"), and it would explain how the whole thing would be able to work with completely immobile crew stuck to separate areas.....
Yes. Yes! The Imperium has all sorts of psykers, from chaos subversives to sanctioned servants of Imperial organizations to Inquisitor psyker-lords, and the Ecclesiarchy has a major role policing them. It makes horrific sense (i.e. perfect sense by Imperial standards) that when a high-ranked psyker falls, his or her penitence must be more spectacular then that of the sinful priests and Sisters who are put into the ordinary Penitent Engines.
So, yea, let there be a fallen psyker of high degree - a Primaris, an Inquisitor - and let there be put upon his head the Crown of Pain, and let him be bound inside the steel skull of the Titan Penitent. And into the limbs and body of said Titan let there be bound as many penitents as there are places for, and into the skull of each let there be implanted such devices as may connect them unto the psyker. Thus his will shall rule their wills, and their pain shall all be his pain, yea, even as they die in battle, one by one by one, let each death be a death for him who deserves death a hundredfold.
So, Penitent Titan -- walker or monster? I can see it as a Gargantuan Creature that becomes more powerful with every Wound it takes as the bound penitents expire and pour their death-agonies into the psyker at the helm....
First of all, I'd give the PT the following:
- two titan close combat weapons with built-in heavy flamers w. torrent (and hellstorm if you're feeling mean )
- shield of faith
- feel no pain
- fearless
For the damage table I suggest the following:
1. Destroyed Relic
The hit has damaged or destroyed one of the holy symbols on the titan. Enraged by the loss, the penitent crew is driven to even greater feats of anger. The model loses a hull point, but gains the rage special rule.
2. Leg Pilot Wounded
The hit has injured one of the penitents controlling the titan's legs. The pilot is driven to an even greater frenzy by the pain. The model loses a hull point. Additionally, it gains the Furious Charge special rule. If the model does not move in a friendly movement phase (unless it is engaged in combat), it loses this rule again.
3-5. Thud.
The hit did not damage anything (or anyone) vital. Treat as a glancing hit.
6. Psyker hit
The psyker controlling the titan is wounded by the hit. The model loses D3 hull points. The titan gains the preferred enemy special rule against the unit responsible for the hit. If this was the enemy warlord, the titan gains preferred enemy against both the warlord and any models from the same codex instead. If this result is rolled twice, the titan is removed as a casualty with no saves of any kind allowed.
Some neat ideas. I think we can do better with "3-5" than "thud" -- probably "weapon destroyed" results for the secondary weapons.
Each arm having a Titan Close Combat Weapon and a Hellstorm-template Inferno Gun would be awesome. OTT, probably, and I don't think other Titans get two weapons per arm slot -- dammit, to get this right I have to buy the new Apocalypse, that's $70US down the drain -- but you take away the carapace weapon, it might balance it out a bit.
Actually, you could combine these two ideas for better balance: normal superheavies don't ever suffer "weapon destroyed" results -- in fact they ignore every result on the damage table except "explodes" -- so losing weapons (or some degree of mobility for leg hits) would balance having four Titan-scale arm weapons as opposed to the normal two.
Also I'd like multiple twin-linked heavy flamers (or firestorm cannons??) shooting out every which way and some nice rotary scythes at the ankles to so Stomp attacks use a larger template.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SisterSydney wrote: ....dammit, to get this right I have to buy the new Apocalypse, that's $70US down the drain....
Oh, double dammit, Apocalypse isn't available as an ebook, as far as I can tell.
Have you seen the Menoth Battle Engine for Warmachine? It strikes me as exactly the sort of thing you might see a Sisters army fielding. An enormous, extremely heavy altar with an ornate pipe organ and a Sister banging out hymns to the Emperor. But instead of an engine, the altar is towed by a team of a dozen Sisters Repentia chained together at the neck. Perhaps treat the unit as a gargantuan creature, and for every two wounds it suffers, its movement is reduced by an inch. Special rules include unique, vastly OP acts of faith and other bonuses to nearby units, and throw in 8 D-weapons for good measure.
This horrific thing? (Sorry I don't know how to insert the image directly). Yes, that's adequately grimdark. Not a superheavy, though, more of a chariot -- except you can kill the people dragging it in close combat.... hrm.
Also, I've updated the Kriegsminaret and Armoured Pulpit to let them be destroyed on "weapon destroyed results.
SisterSydney wrote: This horrific thing? (Sorry I don't know how to insert the image directly). Yes, that's adequately grimdark. Not a superheavy, though, more of a chariot -- except you can kill the people dragging it in close combat.... hrm.
Also, I've updated the Kriegsminaret and Armoured Pulpit to let them be destroyed on "weapon destroyed results.
Forgot to add a line of text to the 'psyker hit' result. It now also loses D3 hull points to compensate for the lack of 'explodes' on the damage table ('explodes' causes D3+1 hits, iirc, but can never cause instant death like the 6 on this table).
SisterSydney wrote: As I've said before, I love the Sisters of Battle and I love tanks. Having upgunned the Heavy Support and Fast Attack slots with the Soritas Predator and Oriflamme Scout Tank, I decided to try my hand at Lords or rather Ladies of War -- plus a new Heavy Support assault vehicle for our Repentia and a whole list of liturgical wargear that only such massive war machines can carry.
Ladies of War. Cheesy. I'd just stick with Lords of war, it's more 'professional'.
Rolling Chapel Equipment List
Spoiler:
Armoured Pulpit: 50 points Devout mechanics have converted one of this vehicle's cupolas or hatches into a heavily armoured pulpit from which a preacher can deliver inspiring, terrifying, and massively amplified sermons over the roar the heat of battle. All friendly, Emperor-worshipping units within 6" of a vehicle with an Armoured Pulpit gain the War Hymns special rule. However, they may only use the "The Emperor Protects" and "Righteousness of the Emperor" hymns. An Emperor-worshipping unit is any of the following: - any unit from Codex:Adepta Sororitas - any unit from Codex:Imperial Guard - any unit from a Space Marines detachment using Black Templars chapter tactics - any unit from an Adeptus Arbites fandex. Any other units lack the faith in the divinity of the Emperor required to benefit from these rules.
No Space Marines worship the Emperor as a God, this includes the Black Templars. To them he is the Father of Mankind, not a God. I would simply make it that any Sisters Battle Brother can use it, so: Adepta Sororitas Armoured Battle Group Death Korps Armoured Battle Group Death Korps Assault Brigade Death Korps Siege Regiment Elysian Drop Troops Imperial Guard Inquisition
The idea is fine though, I'd say make it a Priest in the Pulpit, and say it provides an Laspistol to whatever it's mounted on for the lulz. 50pts seems fine for this.
Holy Light: 25 points As the massive war machine crashes into the enemy lines, its gilded armour gleaming and its sacramental spotlights blazing, the eyes of the evildoers are dazzled by a pure white light and their ears fill with celestial music. Then the faithful charge out of the vehicle and rip them apart. [spoiler] Assault vehicles only (including open-topped vehicles). When a unit charges out of a transport with Holy Light, it counts as having assault grenades and inflicts a Blind attack on all enemies it is charging, resolved at Initiative 10.
I would say make this like the CSM Dirge Casters, have it affect any enemy unit within 6". Maybe 12" due to Super Heavy status.
I'd also change it to grant any unit charging within range a Hammer of Wrath attack with the Blind Rule. Much simpler.
Icon of Courage: 20 points Looming literally larger than life, these holy images of Imperial saints past look sternly down on today's combatants and forbid them to waver for an instant. Friendly units within 12" of a vehicle with Icons of Courage re-roll failed Morale, Fear, and Pinning tests.
This is fine.
Vox Dei: 30 points A soul-stirring, ear-splitting array of high-powered laud hailers inspires Sororitas at great distances. All friendly units within 24" of a vehicle equipped with a Vox Dei re-roll failed Leadership tests when attempting an Act of Faith.
Also fine.
Design notes: Except for Holy Light, whose cost is basically a big fat guess, these are all scaled-up versions of existing wargear/priests, with point costs increased to reflect increased ranges. Remember that doubling the range quadruples the area of effect and even the same range counts for more when measured from all sides of vehicle rather than from a single model!
Deliverer Assault Shrine: 200 points Ugly juggernauts converted from civilian mining vehicles, their hulls covered first with crude slabs of heavy armour and then with layer upon layer of devotional decoration, Delivers can lurch across the battlefield with surprising speed. Flamers roaring, they slam into enemy positions and drop their front ramps to disgorge Sororitas shock troops or hate-crazed Frateris. BS:4 Armour: 13/13/12 HP:4
Spoiler:
Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank, Transport)
Unit Composition: 1 Deliverer Assault Shrine
Wargear: Twin-linked multi-melta Two flamestorm cannons Searchlight Smoke launchers
Special Rules: Assault Vehicle Shield of Faith
Transport Capacity: 12 models
Options: May replace twin-linked multi-melta with twin-linked heavy bolter or twin-linked heavy flamer: free. May take items from the Adepta Sororitas Vehicle Equipment List. May take items from the Rolling Chapel Equipment List.
Design notes: Basically a pious poor man's Land Raider Redeemer, with worse armour and no Machine Spirit -- but with access to all the sacramental nasties of the Rolling Chapel Equipment List. Points cost is pure guesstimate.
LR Redeemer - 240 -4AV -40 Replace TL AssCannon with TL Multimelta -20 -Frag Launchers -10 -POTMS -30 +Shield of Faith +10 Total: 150
Sororitas Baneblade Variants
Spoiler:
Adepta Sororitas super-heavy vehicles are moving temples of destruction. Fortunately for heretics, they are also rare. Between the Sisterhood's preference for short-range urban fighting in defense of shrines and the Ecclesiarchy's on-and-off relationship with the Machine Cult, the Orders Militant actually have fewer superheavies per 100,000 infantry than the Imperial Guard. In fact, most Sororitas "Ladies of War" are converted from the Baneblade and its variants, and they are rarely provided directly by the Mechanicum: Instead, the Sisters tend to acquire former Imperial Guard super-heavy tanks, whether by recovering wrecked ones from the battlefield, capturing them from traitor regiments, or simply "requisitioning" them from overawed Guard commanders and never giving them back.
A Sororitas Baneblade Variant starts with an Imperial Guard super-heavy datasheet but adds the following special rules: Retributor Crew: Increase Ballistic Skill to 4. Rolling Chapel: May take items from the Rolling Chapel Equipment List. Shield of Faith: As per Codex:Adepta Sororitas. Sponsons of Fire: If a Sororitas Baneblade Variant takes sponsons, replace each lascannon with a Flamestorm Cannon.
This will be +50pts to base I reckon, equivalent to a pair of HB Sponsons and Targetters. The Flamestorm is probably about even to a single Lascannon, so this is fine.
Storm Queen: 560 points The Sororitas's favorite superheavy vehicle is the Imperial Guard Stormlord, because its troop bay can either carry squads of sharpshooting Retributors or be converted to hold Exorcist missile launchers or even a towering minaret for a Ministorum Priest.
Spoiler:
As Imperial Guard Stormlord (Escalationpg. 111) except
Special rule: Sororitas Baneblade Variant
Options: A Storm Queen may replace its troop bay with one of the following, reducing its transport capacity to 20 models and losing all fire points:
- Kriegsminaret: 100 points All friendly, Faithful units within 12" of a Storm Queen with a Kriegsminaret gain +1 Ld and the War Hymns special rule. However, they may only use the "The Emperor Protects" and "Righteousness of the Emperor" hymns.
Design notes: Some IG superheavies can replace their sponson lasguns -- worth about 40 points, if you go by the cost of Predator sponsons -- with targeters to gain +1 BS. In addition, Shield of Faith seems like it should be worth at least 40 points for such a massive vehicle: Destroyer weapons may ignore it, but the majority of things fired at a superheavy won't. So +80 points total.
Stormlord +50, 530pts.
By my math, an Exorcist Launcher is 65pts. As far as I can gather, Transport Capacity is about 2pts per model. So the twin launcher should be a 90pt upgrade. And I'd say +50 for the Minaret would be fine.
Flameblade: 585 points [i]This Baneblade variant replaces the original's cannon with weapons more to the Sororitas' fiery taste.
Spoiler:
As Imperial Guard Blaneblade (Escalationpg. 79) except
Replace turreted Baneblade Cannon with Inferno Gun: Template S:7 AP:3 Primary, Super-Torrent* Super-Torrent: As per Torrent, but the template may be placed 18" away.
Design notes: The Flameblade pays only 20 points for BS4, rather than 40 as for the Storm Queen, because its main weapon uses a template.
Assuming the Baneblade Cannon is equivalent to a 'Light Titan Weapon' (as per Warhounds / Reavers, as opposed to 'Heavy Titan Weapons' found on Warlords and Emperors), so a stright swap would be fine. But Inferno Guns are not Torrent anymore, so that shouldn't be free. Regular Torrent is worth 15pts The 'super' would probably be +25 at least.
Magna Melta for Demolisher is fine.
That the main gun is a template doesn't matter, all other weapons on it will benefit. Baneblade = 525 +1BS, SoF +50 'super torrent' +25 Total: 600
Sword of Light: 505 points This modified Shadowsword replaces the giant laser of the Volcano Cannon with the more Sisterhood-friendly Melta Cannon.
Spoiler:
As Imperial Guard Shadowsword (Escalationpg. 107) except
Replace Volcano Cannon with Melta Cannon: 72" S:10 AP:1 Ordnance 1, 10" Blast, Titanic Melta*, Primary Weapon *Titanic Melta: The Melta Cannon rolls 3d6+10 for armour penetration against targets directly under the hole in the center of the blast template, 2d6+10 against all other targets under the template.
Special rule: Sororitas Baneblade Variant
Options: A Sword of Light may not take targeters.
[i]Design notes: The Melta Cannon seems less potent than the Volcano Cannon, so I gave the Sword of Light a 20 point discount from the +80 cost I used for the Storm Queen.
As per Titans, Titan Weapons seems to be costed equivalently across. Probably shouldn't be, but they are.
Melta Cannons are just Melta now. Melta is 10pts, Double Melta then should be 20, and triple Melta would be 30, but only in the center of the template, so call it +25. Shadowsword = 455 +1BS, SoF +50 +'titanic melta' +25 Total: 530
Overall, sound ideas mostly, a bit fuzzy on costing, but not TOO bad really. Superheavies are.. tricky to say the least.
For the 'mega penitent', it needs to be a Walker. It should not have a Psyker in it. Rogue Psykers are put to death immediately, they are too much of a threat due to their psychic ability and pose too much risk of becoming a conduit for daemonic incursion to live. They wouldn't be used at the core of a Sisters weapon.
I see a Titanic Penitent Engine as something that would be roughly Warhound equivalent. 10-12" tall, lither with weaker armour (AV 13/12/11 maybe?) with 9 Hull Points.
Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons aren't found on titans so small generally, and I don't think it'd 'fit' on a lighter frame like the T.Peni. (The exception being the Stompa, but that thing has 1 and outmasses a lot of things being a walking trashcan). No 'Titan Class' weaponry at all infact. I'd give it a pair of giant Eviscerators / Chainfists though and 2 Flamestorm Cannons.
Possibly with a pair of shoulder mounted TL Heavy Bolters. And drawing from my own Sisters stuff, I'd give it some Zenith Missiles: A Zenith Missile is a weapon with the following profile: Zenith Missile: Range-48", Str-8, AP-2, Type-Heavy 1, Skyfire, One Shot.
Also bear in mind it gains the following just from being a Super Heavy Walker: ( S-HW: Fear ) ( S-HW: Hammer of Wrath ) ( S-HW: Invincible Behemoth ) ( S-HW: Move Through Cover ) ( S-HW: Relentless ) ( S-HW: Smash ) ( S-HW: Stomp ) ( S-HW: Strikedown )
Ladies of War. Cheesy. I'd just stick with Lords of war, it's more 'professional'.
Why? Lady is the feminine variant of Lord.
No Space Marines worship the Emperor as a God, this includes the Black Templars.
Incorrect. Would you like me to list the names of GW-created Chapters who venerate the God-Emperor as the God-Emperor of Mankind?
It sounds more professional because the entry is Lords of War, that's all. It would have made more sense to call it 'Apocalypse Formation', but hey.
And Feel free to list them and cite sources, but what I've read says that all Space Marines do not see the Emperor as a god. But I'm always happy to be proven wrong though. You don't learn anything if you aren't open to critisicm after all.
Regardless, I'd still stick with making it Battle Brothers only affected, it's just easier, as those are who could be affected by it normally.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is my take on the concept of a mega-penitent.
Spoiler:
Army: Sisters of Battle
BG: The Penintentiarius Titan is truly a horrifying site to behold.
Nine wretched souls that have committed the most heinous crimes are bound to the chasis of a towering walker.
Lightly armoured and fast, it charges the enemy lines seeking redemption for its begotten crew, often spewing Repentia and Penitent Engines that use handles and clamps on the outside of the machine to carry them into the fray.
FO: Apocalypse / Lords of War
Squad: Penintentiarius Titan
Unit: Penintentiarius Titan, Points Per: 550, Models: 1-3, Vehicle Type: Super-Heavy Walker, Open-Topped,
WS-4, BS-2, S-10, FA-12, SA-12, RA-11, HP-9, I-3, A-3(4).
Wargear:
Two Chainfists with built-in Flamestorm Cannons
Two Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters
Six Zenith Missiles
One Void Shield
Special Rules:
( S-HW: Fear )
( S-HW: Hammer of Wrath )
( S-HW: Invincible Behemoth )
( S-HW: Move Through Cover )
( S-HW: Relentless )
( S-HW: Smash )
( S-HW: Stomp )
( S-HW: Strikedown )
Transport Capacity: 10+2* or 3*
Shield of Faith
Penance Engine
Rage
It Will Not Die
Agile
Options:
Void Shields:
Each hit scored against a model with a Void Shield will instead hit a void shield (whilst they remain).
Close combat attacks come from inside the shield and therefore are not stopped.
Void shields have an Armour Value of 12.
A glancing or penetrating hit (or any hit from a Destroyer weapon) scored against a void shield causes it to collapse.
After all the void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the Titan instead.
At the end of each of the Titan's turns, roll one dice for each collapsed void shield:
each roll of 5+ instantly restores one collapsed shield.
Zenith Missiles:
A Zenith Missile is a weapon with the following profile:
Zenith Missile: Range-48", Str-8, AP-2, Type-Heavy 1, Skyfire, One Shot.
Transport Capacity: 10+2* or 3*
This model has a transport capacity of ten Repentia plus 2 Characters or up to three Penitent Engines.
If any models are mounted on the Penintentiarius Titan, each time it suffers a penetrating hit, D3 occupants suffer a Str3, AP-, Rending hits.
Penance Engine:
For each Hull Point lost, increase the Attack value of the Penintentiarius Titan by one.
Agile:
In the Shooting phase, this model can choose to either:
- Fire all available weapons.
- Fire a single weapon and then Run.
- Fire no weapons at all and Run twice.
I'll do a proper costing in the morning.
But I estimate it to be around 550 based on quick fuzzy brain maths against a Warhound.
Ladies of War. Cheesy.
I'd just stick with Lords of war, it's more 'professional'.
Why? Lady is the feminine variant of Lord.
No Space Marines worship the Emperor as a God, this includes the Black Templars.
Incorrect. Would you like me to list the names of GW-created Chapters who venerate the God-Emperor as the God-Emperor of Mankind?
It sounds more professional because the entry is Lords of War, that's all.
It would have made more sense to call it 'Apocalypse Formation', but hey.
And Feel free to list them and cite sources, but what I've read says that all Space Marines do not see the Emperor as a god.
But I'm always happy to be proven wrong though. You don't learn anything if you aren't open to critisicm after all.
Regardless, I'd still stick with making it Battle Brothers only affected, it's just easier, as those are who could be affected by it normally.
The Fire Hawks are one, prior to becoming the LotD, having been one of the first to the fight during the Age of Apostasy, in support of Sebastian Thor (and did, in fact, get awarded a Heresy-era Battle Barge by him, iirc, as Vandire had destroyed their homeworld). (IA v9, C:UM 2E, WH40K Comp, WD 99, C:Assassins 3E)
The Adulators were mentioned in a Chapter Approved article, of which it is said (according to Lexicanum) "The chapter is steeped in the ways of the Ecclesiarchy and are on close terms with their holy orders". (Chapter Approved 2001, Blood of Asaheim(BL) )
The Angels Revenant were said to be "stern supporters of the Imperial Creed". (Chapter Approved 2001, IA v12)
The White Consuls also worship the Emperor as a god, which is noted for being unusual for the Astartes. (WH40KBRB 5E, C:UM, C: EoT, DW: Rites of Battle, C: SM 6E ebook)
The Doom Eagles are "notoriously pious". (DW: Honour the Chapter, Legends of the Space Marines anthology, several BL novels/stories)
The Fire Angels (a UM Successor) are zealously dedicated to the Creed. Of them, it is said, "they do not revere their ancestral primarch (Roboute Guilliman) as most chapters do, believing this to be a form of idolatry". (IA v9)
The Red Scorpions, who developed the Helios-pattern Land Raider, are seriously in the Emp-worshipping camp. (IA v4, v6, v7, v9, WD 101, WD 105)
And then there are the Storm Wardens, from FFG's Deathwatch RPG. Not a GW Chapter, obviously, but one more for the pile.
One can make arguments for the Angels Resplendent/Angels Penitent, the Brazen Skulls, the Celebrants, the Crimson Fists, the Templars of Blood, and the Novamarines, though these Chapters are not outright said to worship the God-Emperor (but elements to what lore there is about them suggests such an arrangement).
Psienesis, thanks for the list of Emperor-worshiping Astartes. That took a lot of work.... I think "pious" could refer either to Emperor-worship or the Astartes' own rites, which are a form of ancestor worship (fallen heroes < chapter founder < primarch < Emperor, but not a God-Emperor). But "Imperial Creed" definitely means Emperor-worship.
Hmmm. Maybe Ovion's "applies to all Battle Brothers of Sororitas" is the simplest way to go. Then you can home-rule that Templars, say, or Fire Angels are Battle Brothers, unlike other Marines, because they share the Sisters' faith.
2. Superheavy point cost
Ovion, thanks. Again, a lot of work.
I've actually gotten a look at a copy of Apocalypse so I'll bring the weapon stats into alignment with those rather than stick with the current stats, so that removes one costing complexity. Otherwise I think I'd stick with what you say.
3. Penitent Titan
Lots of good ideas coming in on this one. I personally like the idea of a penitent psyker in command: He or she is not a rogue psyker -- that indeed would be too dangerous to let live -- but a truly penitent psyker, one who personally feels he or she has failed the God-Emperor and who accepts the judgment of the Ecclesiarchy and the sentence of Titanhood.
Size is going to tricky, and arguably you could have a whole series of Penitent Engines from regular to big to Holy Feth. Again, now I can actually look at a copy of Apocalypse, I'll be able to think much more rigorously in terms of existing models (in both senses of the term).
And I love the idea of Repentia clinging to its legs as it charges into battle. Hadn't thought of regular-sized PEs doing it, though. Those are really the two units that are crazy enough....
I would go ahead and change the Melta Cannons titanic melta wording.
I understand the +10 to the D6 rolls are meant to be the strength of the gun. But I know a lot if people that would argue pure RAW it then means 3D6+10 and THEN add the weapon strength. Just say it rolls 3D6 for Armour Penetration.
I don't like the idea of a psyker in there. But I know you disagree with me on the nature of Faith, so I'm going to let it lie aside from this one comment.
Other than that, everything looks good. I'd personally offer a one-for-one swap on the Flameblade for heavy bolters and heavy flamers (when I built my Laevantine, I gave it a flamestorm cannon, TL heavy flamer, incendiary siege mortar and two sponsons with TL multi-melta and inferno cannon).
Hmmm. Folks are convincing me, it'd be hard as heck to find a psyker who'd failed badly enough to be sentenced to a Penitent Titan and yet remained loyal enough he could be trusted with one.
As long as the pilot is a former high official and feels the agonies of all the crew as if they were his own, I'm happy.
(Well, I might add the option to buy Psyker Mastery Levels, perhaps at a points premium...).
I've revised the Deliver (heavy support assault transport), the Sororitas Baneblade variants, and the Rolling Chapel wargear based on folks' suggestions -- especially Ovion's cost breakdown -- and on finally having access to Apocalypse 6th edition.
Rolling Chapel Equipment List
Spoiler:
Armoured Pulpit: 50 points
Devout mechanics have converted one of this vehicle's cupolas or hatches into a heavily armoured pulpit from which a preacher can deliver inspiring, terrifying, and massively amplified sermons over the roar the heat of battle. As long as they are within 6" of a vehicle with an Armoured Pulpit, any units from Codex:Adepta Sororitas and allied detachments that are Battle Brothers with the Sororitas gain the War Hymns special rule. However, they may only use the "The Emperor Protects" and "Righteousness of the Emperor" hymns.
Any other units lack the faith in the divinity of the Emperor required to benefit from these rules.
Holy Light: 25 points
As the massive war machine crashes into the enemy lines, its gilded armour gleaming and its sacramental spotlights blazing, the eyes of the evildoers are dazzled by a pure white light and their ears fill with celestial music. Then the faithful charge out of the vehicle and rip them apart. [spoiler]
Assault vehicles only (including open-topped vehicles). When a unit charges out of a transport with Holy Light, it counts as having assault grenades and inflicts a Blind attack on all enemies it is charging, resolved at Initiative 10.
[Design note: One case where I didn't take Ovion's suggestion.... It's meant more to be more like a souped-up version of a Land Raider's frag assault launchers than like a Dirge Caster.]
Icon of Courage: 20 points
Looming literally larger than life, these holy images of Imperial saints past look sternly down on today's combatants and forbid them to waver for an instant. Friendly units within 12" of a vehicle with Icons of Courage re-roll failed Morale, Fear, and Pinning tests.
Vox Dei: 25 points
A soul-stirring, ear-splitting array of high-powered laud hailers inspires Sororitas at great distances. All friendly units within 18" of a vehicle equipped with a Vox Dei re-roll failed Leadership tests when attempting an Act of Faith.
[Design note: reduced the range of effect from 24" to 18" so it wouldn't have a 48"+vehicle base diameter and cover most of the table, reduced cost slightly.]
Deliverer Assault Shrine: 150 points
Ugly juggernauts converted from civilian mining vehicles, their hulls covered first with crude slabs of heavy armour and then with layer upon layer of devotional ornamention, Delivers can lurch across the battlefield with surprising speed. Flamers roaring, they slam into enemy positions and drop their front ramps to disgorge Sororitas shock troops or hate-crazed Frateris. BS:4 Armour: 13/13/12 HP:4
Spoiler:
Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank, Transport)
Force Organization: A Deliverer counts as a Heavy Support choice for a [Codex:Adepta Sororitas army.
Unit Composition: 1 Deliverer Assault Shrine
Wargear:
Twin-linked multi-melta
Two flamestorm cannons
Searchlight
Smoke launchers
Special Rules:
Assault Vehicle
Shield of Faith
Transport Capacity:
12 models
Options:
May replace twin-linked multi-melta with twin-linked heavy bolter or twin-linked heavy flamer: free.
May take items from the Adepta Sororitas Vehicle Equipment List.
May take items from the Rolling Chapel Equipment List.
Design notes: A poor man's Land Raider Redeemer, for which I'm now just totally taking Ovion's costing -- not sure on exact details (POTMs seems overvalued, Shield of Faith undervalued) but it all balances out:
LR Redeemer - 240
-4AV -40
Replace TL AssCannon with TL Multimelta -20
-Frag Launchers -10
-POTMS -30
+Shield of Faith +10
Total: 150
Sororitas Superheavy: 50 points
Spoiler:
Adepta Sororitas super-heavy vehicles are moving temples of destruction. Fortunately for heretics, they are also rare. Between the Sisterhood's preference for short-range urban fighting in defense of shrines and the Ecclesiarchy's on-and-off relationship with the Machine Cult, the Orders Militant actually have fewer superheavies per 100,000 infantry than the Imperial Guard.
In fact, most Sororitas "Ladies of War" are converted from the Baneblade and its variants, and they are rarely provided directly by the Mechanicum: Instead, the Sisters tend to acquire former Imperial Guard super-heavy tanks, whether by recovering wrecked ones from the battlefield, capturing them from traitor regiments, or simply "requisitioning" them from overawed Guard commanders and never giving them back.
A Sororitas Superheavy starts with an Imperial Guard super-heavy datasheet but adds the following special rules:
Retributor Crew: Increase Ballistic Skill to 4.
Rolling Chapel: May take items from the Rolling Chapel Equipment List.
Shield of Faith: As per Codex:Adepta Sororitas.
Holy Trinity Weapons: If the original Imperial Guard vehicle has lascannons, either as standard equipment or as an option, the Sororitas version replaces each lascannon with a twin-linked flamestorm cannon. Replace any heavy stubber with a heavy bolter and any autocannon with a multi-melta.
If a vehicle's dataslate already includes the "Sororitas Superheavy " special rule, the points cost is already included.
[Design note: Ovion's costing again, and that makes it applicable as an SR to any Baneblade variant or even Forge World superheavies like the Macharius, Crassus, or Gorgon!]
Storm Queen: 530 points
The Sororitas's most common superheavy vehicle is based on the Imperial Guard Stormlord. As a giant infantry fighting vehicle, optimized to carry infantry into combat and support them at short range and high risk, the very attributes that make it unattractive to the average Guard commander make it a favorite for the fiercer and more infantry-focused Sororitas. In addition, the Sisterhood makes good use of the Stormlord's troop bay, not only using it to carry squads of sharpshooting Retributors but often converting it to hold Exorcist missile launchers or even a towering minaret for a Ministorum Priest.
Spoiler:
As Imperial Guard Stormlord except
Special rule: Sororitas Superheavy
Options:
A Storm Queen may replace its troop bay with one of the following, reducing its transport capacity to 20 models and losing all fire points:
- Kriegsminaret: 50 points
The Kriegsminaret counts as an Armoured Pulpit, but with 12" range instead of 6".
Shooting attacks may target a Kriegsminaret separately from the vehicle on which it is mounted: It has T:6 W:3 Sv:6++. Any such attacks are at -1 to Ballistic Skill because of the height and mast-like thinness of the minaret.
[Design notes: Again, I'm going to adopt Ovion's math almost entirely: "Stormlord +50, 530pts. By my math, an Exorcist Launcher is 65pts. As far as I can gather, Transport Capacity is about 2pts per model.
So the twin launcher should be a 90pt upgrade. And I'd say +50 for the Minaret would be fine."
Flameblade: 575 points
[i]This Baneblade variant replaces the original's cannons with weapons more to the Sororitas' fiery taste, drastically reducing range but dramatically improving close-in firepower with a high-powered melta and a Titan-sized flamer. Once the Ecclesiarchy's mechanics are done with it, the Guard's general-purpose super heavy tank has become a specialized city-clearing, bunker-busting nightmare.
Replace hull-mounted Demolisher Cannon with Magna-Melta:
18" S:8 AP:1 Heavy 1, Large Blast (5"), Melta
Special rule: Sororitas Superheavy
Design notes: Adopting Ovion's costing -- +50 points for Sororitas Superheavy -- and bringing the Inferno Gun into line with 6th edition: "Assuming the Baneblade Cannon is equivalent to a 'Light Titan Weapon' (as per Warhounds / Reavers, as opposed to 'Heavy Titan Weapons' found on Warlords and Emperors), so a stright swap would be fine....Magna Melta for Demolisher is fine."[/i]
Sword of Light: 505 points
This modified Shadowsword replaces the giant laser of the Volcano Cannon with Melta Cannon, trading range and killing power versus other superheavies for a huge blast effect that melts through fortress walls and whole formations of lesser vehicles. What was once a sniper-like Titan killer becomes a brutal assault gun.
Design notes: Again, I'm following Ovion's costing and bringing the Titan weapons in line with 6th edition:
As per Titans, Titan Weapons seems to be costed equivalently across. Probably shouldn't be, but they are.
Melta Cannons are just Melta now....
Shadowsword = 455
+1BS, SoF +50
Now back to your regularly scheduled Penitent Titan discussion!
Also thinking of giant tank-chapels on tracks as the Ecclesiarchy equivalent of Titans, though nothing as ginormous as the one in the Witch Hunters two-page spread...
[EDITED 28 January to make "Sororitas Superheavy" wording more clearly applicable to vehicles that aren't Baneblade variants. EDITED 29 January to replace Baneblade's un-Sisterly autocannon with a TL multimelta on the Flameblade. EDITED 30 January to remove Stormlord's un-Sisterly heavy stubbers without replacing them with anything on the Storm Queen. EDITED 15 May (!) to replace the autocannon with a non-TL multimelta (both being 10 points) and the stubbers with bolters instead, rewriting the "Sororitas Superheavy" rule to make it even more generalizable. EDITED 20 May to replace IG lascannons with TL flamestorm cannons rather than regular flamestorm cannons, which seemed a downgrade.]
Well, the description of a penitent engine is the following:
To be a pilot of a Penitent Engine is to have committed a terrible crime, one so heinous that punishment such as imprisonment, exile, arco-flagellation or execution is deemed too lenient.
It certainly doesn't say anywhere that the penitents have to be voluntarily placed in one. Together with the whole story of wires and injectors forced into their heads, it seems more likely that the unfortunate souls placed in one are unable to turn on the sisters, rather than unwilling.
Considering that, it sounds very well possible to me that somewhere a fallen psyker to whom even being stuck in a penitent engine would be too lenient a punishment would be stuck in one of those. With his mind badly damaged by all the injectors rammed in it, his powers would be greatly reduced but not completely gone.
Alternatively, you could say that any high official could be stuck in a penitent titan, while only some of them are psykers. Those piloted by psykers would get the Psychic Pilot rule, and some rule that allows the titan to 'foresee' enemy attacks, giving him a +1 to his invulnerable save against any attacking models with a(n equal or) lower base initiative than himself. However, then there's still the problem of how the titan could work with like a dozen immobile pilots in different closed-off areas, if not by some sort of telepathy. I doubt a speaker system would work due to the amount of screaming the eternal torture would generate.
I am saddend by the lack of Laspistol on the Armoured Pulpit. Oooh - Laspistol with the following options:
Spoiler:
May replace laspistol with one of the following:
Autogun +0
Bolt pistol +1
Boltgun +1
Shotgun +1
Storm bolter +5
Combi-flamer +10
Combi-melta +10
Combi-plasma +10
Condemnor boltgun +10
Plasma pistol +10
Inferno pistol +10
Plasma gun +15
Must admit not really familiar with Frag Launchers, so prolly fine.
I didn't forget the improvements, including the drop for Transcapacity, that makes it 90pts total.
Like the Twin Exorcists are 130, lesss 40pts of transport capacity that it's replacing.
Brother Michael wrote: Alternatively, you could say that any high official could be stuck in a penitent titan, while only some of them are psykers. Those piloted by psykers would get the Psychic Pilot rule, and some rule that allows the titan to 'foresee' enemy attacks, giving him a +1 to his invulnerable save against any attacking models with a(n equal or) lower base initiative than himself. However, then there's still the problem of how the titan could work with like a dozen immobile pilots in different closed-off areas, if not by some sort of telepathy. I doubt a speaker system would work due to the amount of screaming the eternal torture would generate.
A regular Titan apparently is operated by the Primarch (i.e. chief pilot) having all sorts of crap plugged directly into his freakazoid Mechanicus skull. Presumably the other Machineheads in the Titan have their brains cabled into things to, 'cause thats how da Machine Cult rolls, yo. So it wouldn't be a stretch for the Ecclesiarchy to hot-wire the Penitent Titan's crew directly into the machine and each other, only with a lot less mechanical aptitude than the Tech-Priests and a lot less concern for whether the victim of such surgery was in constant pain, remained capable of coherent rational thought, or could ever unplug....
There are different ways of connecting too.
Some just sit on the chair and wear a VR helm or something.
Others are plugged in directly through cables.
Others intern themselves in a case, and give themselves entirely over to the titan, it sustaining them as they sustain it.
Very strange.
The Ecclesiarchy wouldn't do it themselves either, as that would be heresy.
There would be Tech Priests present to do it for them, and the Mechanicum would likely have produced to Titans for the Sisters in the first place.
Probably as a gift, or payment for a task they wanted that was a little.. off the books, and only relevant to the Mechanicums interests.
Princeps, right. Oops. Rare as they are, there are rather more than 18 Titans in the Imperium.
And yes, I imagine the Mechanicum would be more than a little ambivalent about the Ecclesiarchy having any of their precious Titans, let alone modifying one into a jury-rigged monstrosity best suited to suicide missions. Likewise I think the Ecclesiarchy would only plug cables into the brains of condemned penitents rather than sentence a "good person" to the Princeps job (or let a Techpriest control so much firepower in the middle of their army...).
Also, I wrote up my rough idea of a Penitent Titan:
Penitent Titan: 800 points
In some corners of the Imperium that are even darker than the rest, worship takes on gruesome forms. There are worlds where the devout build mighty effigies of the God-Emperor and fill them with heretics and criminals -- or with the innocent -- before setting the whole thing on fire. The Penitent Titan is the same cruel concept made into a war machine: A jury-rigged Warhound scout Titan with condemned sinners not only wired immovably in every crew station but bound screaming to the outside of the armour. Cables crudely plugged into the skulls of the condemned ensure they experience not only their own torment but one another's, and each time one dies it sends the survivors into new ecstasies of self-annihilation.
Special Rules:
Agile
Rage
Shield of Faith
Void Shields (1)
That Which Kills Us Makes Us Stronger
Every time the Penitent Titan loses a Hull Point, the controlling player may choose one of the following bonuses:
- The Titan moves an additional 2" in the next Shooting Phase if it Runs.
- The Titan gains +1 Attack and +1 Initiative in the next Assault Phase if it is in close combat.
If the Titan lose multiple Hull Points at once, it gains one bonus for each HP.
These bonuses are temporary: If the Titan does not Run in its next Shooting Phase, it loses all moving bonuses; if it does not fight in the next Assault Phase, it loses all bonuses to A and I. Subsequent HP losses will, of course, give the Titan new bonuses.
Design Notes: Trying to keep it simple, so it's basically a Warhound that trades one of its two Void Shields for Rage, Shield of Faith (6++), and That Which Kills Us Makes Us Stronger. I think this is a serious net gain, whose value I'd guestimate as +80 points.
Comments? How do we improve (a) costing and (b) the rules themselves?
I don't know if slightly editing the Warhound's profile is going to be enough.
After all, the warhound is (as far as I know) not meant for combat, while the penitent titan most definitely is.
That makes the Warhound a totally appropriate basis for a "light superheavy" that hurls itself into battle on a suicide run in the hope of killing as many enemies as it can before it goes out in a blaze of hate and glory -- which is pretty much what the original Penitent Engine does. I'm not sure if this thing makes any sense tactically (as opposed to fluffwise) except as a big screaming DISTRACTION CARNIFEX to freak out the enemy and draw their fire while the rest of your army quietly wins the battle.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: The Warhound is designed for scouting, but it is most certainly a combat vehicle. It would not have void shields and massive guns otherwise.
I was referring to combat in the sense of melee combat, not 'combat' in the sense of open warfare.
I don't think a single Ws4 S10 attack really justifies the 800 points it costs, nor the idea of a giant mechanized monstrosity tearing through enemy lines. I mean, even the standard penitent engine has more attacks, and the titan is essentially a pentitent engine plus. I think it really needs a pair of oversized eviscerators or something.
Aha, now I get it. GW's use of "combat" to mean "close combat" is deeply confusing.
And your point about this having only one attack (two on the charge with Rage) is well made: I was mentally counting on the enemy shooting it up just before it assaulted so "That Which Kills Makes Us Stronger" could buff its Attacks statistic -- but of course the enemy might not be that cooperative.
What do people think would be good base Attack and Initiative values?
For comparison: Khorne Lord of Skulls (ridiculous name) has I:3 A:4, +1A for every wound it takes ever (the bonus doesn't go away after one use as it does with the draft Penetitan). Ork Stompa has I:1 A:4; Revenant Titan has I:2 A:1; Imperial Titans have I:1 A:1; and the normal-sized Penitent Engine has I:3 A:3 +1 on the charge for Rage.
So maybe I:2 A:2, +1 on the charge for Rage, +1 per wound taken for the Penitent Titan, with the wound bonuses not going away?
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Rage would give it three on the charge. Strength D is still nasty.
The way it's currently written it does not have strength D. The titan has a Titan Close Combat Weapon, not a Titan Powerfist.
How about giving it a titan-eviscerator which counts as a titan cc weapon with armourbane instead?
Options:
The Penitent Titan may take either of the following (but not both):
Chainscythe anklets: ?? Points
Giant chainblades jury-rigged to the Titan's mechanical ankles whir to bloody life as it crushes the heretic underfoot. A Penitent Titan with chainscythe anklets uses the Large Blast template for Stomp attacks.
Repentia Racks: 30 points
Handrails and footholds crudely welded onto the Titan's leg armor let it carry fanatically fearless passengers into battle.
The Titan counts as an open-topped transport for 20 infantry models. However, each model must have the Fearless special rule or the And They Shall Know No Fear special rule. (Models that do not have the rule themselves but which gain it from an independent character joining their unit may not ride). In addition, every time an enemy shooting or melee attack hits the Titan with a to-hit roll of 6, one of the units riding the Titan takes a hit with same Strength, AP, and special rules.
Design notes: 2 points per passenger = 40, -25% for the restrictions and chance of being killed.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Rage would give it three on the charge. Strength D is still nasty.
The way it's currently written it does not have strength D. The titan has a Titan Close Combat Weapon, not a Titan Powerfist.
How about giving it a titan-eviscerator which counts as a titan cc weapon with armourbane instead?
I'd meant to give a Destroyer melee weapon, actually -- just sloppy terminology on my part.
But a Titanic Eviscerator sounds rather lovely. Destroyer and Armourbane, maybe?
I like the racks/anklets option. Sounds cool both fluffwise and gamewise.
Strength D armourbane is somewhat overpowered. With three attacks it means you have two hits, with a 30/36th (so 5/6th) chance of scoring a penetrating hit against AV 14 each. That means that it will undoubtedly crush any non-sh vecicle in close combat, and has a 10/6th*1/6th = 10/36th chance of inflicting D6+6 hull point damage on the charge against superheavies. The math may be a bit off because it's late and I'm tired, but still.
Also, a lot of people hate strength D, so I'd personally go for strength 10 armourbane. Since it's custom-made, it's likely people won't accept its use if it has a destroyer weapon.
And because I like throwing random fluffy ideas around: what if the squad holding onto the racks would have to take a toughness/initiative test (whichever is higher) or lose D3 models with no saves allowed due to models losing grip and falling off the racks?
Brother Michael wrote: I like the racks/anklets option. Sounds cool both fluffwise and gamewise.
Strength D armourbane is somewhat overpowered. With three attacks it means you have two hits, with a 30/36th (so 5/6th) chance of scoring a penetrating hit against AV 14 each. That means that it will undoubtedly crush any non-sh vecicle in close combat, and has a 10/6th*1/6th = 10/36th chance of inflicting D6+6 hull point damage on the charge against superheavies. The math may be a bit off because it's late and I'm tired, but still.
Also, a lot of people hate strength D, so I'd personally go for strength 10 armourbane. Since it's custom-made, it's likely people won't accept its use if it has a destroyer weapon.
And because I like throwing random fluffy ideas around: what if the squad holding onto the racks would have to take a toughness/initiative test (whichever is higher) or lose D3 models with no saves allowed due to models losing grip and falling off the racks?
Armourbane does exactly othing for StrD.
StrD auto pens vehicles on a roll of a 1, ad autoexplodes them on a roll of 2-5.
Which is why I gave my one Chainfists. Though Eviscerators were a definate maybe too.
Options:
The Penitent Titan may take either of the following (but not both):
Chainscythe anklets: ?? Points
Giant chainblades jury-rigged to the Titan's mechanical ankles whir to bloody life as it crushes the heretic underfoot. A Penitent Titan with chainscythe anklets uses the Large Blast template for Stomp attacks.
Repentia Racks: 30 points
Handrails and footholds crudely welded onto the Titan's leg armor let it carry fanatically fearless passengers into battle.
The Titan counts as an open-topped transport for 20 infantry models. However, each model must have the Fearless special rule or the And They Shall Know No Fear special rule. (Models that do not have the rule themselves but which gain it from an independent character joining their unit may not ride). In addition, every time an enemy shooting or melee attack hits the Titan with a to-hit roll of 6, one of the units riding the Titan takes a hit with same Strength, AP, and special rules.
Design notes: 2 points per passenger = 40, -25% for the restrictions and chance of being killed.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Rage would give it three on the charge. Strength D is still nasty.
The way it's currently written it does not have strength D. The titan has a Titan Close Combat Weapon, not a Titan Powerfist.
How about giving it a titan-eviscerator which counts as a titan cc weapon with armourbane instead?
I'd meant to give a Destroyer melee weapon, actually -- just sloppy terminology on my part.
But a Titanic Eviscerator sounds rather lovely. Destroyer and Armourbane, maybe?
I am not sure, Stomp attacks can oneshot anything non-Superheavy or Gargantuan, so it is a pretty big upgrade to make them large blast.
What does it cost for a Transcendent? Like 120-150 points?
And yes, armourbane is redundant for a Destroyer weapon since it wipes the floor so bad with vehicles anyway so armourbane literally makes no difference whatsoever.
Have't actually looked at costing it up. Seismic Shockwave, that upgrades the Stomp to Large Blast is 60pts.
And it's not that Armourbane makes no difference, it literally does nothing due to StrD technically not being a Strength value.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SisterSydney wrote:Also, I wrote up my rough idea of a Penitent Titan:
Spoiler:
Penitent Titan: 800 points In some corners of the Imperium that are even darker than the rest, worship takes on gruesome forms. There are worlds where the devout build mighty effigies of the God-Emperor and fill them with heretics and criminals -- or with the innocent -- before setting the whole thing on fire. The Penitent Titan is the same cruel concept made into a war machine: A jury-rigged Warhound scout Titan with condemned sinners not only wired immovably in every crew station but bound screaming to the outside of the armour. Cables crudely plugged into the skulls of the condemned ensure they experience not only their own torment but one another's, and each time one dies it sends the survivors into new ecstasies of self-annihilation.
Special Rules: Agile Rage Shield of Faith Void Shields (1)
That Which Kills Us Makes Us Stronger Every time the Penitent Titan loses a Hull Point, the controlling player may choose one of the following bonuses: - The Titan moves an additional 2" in the next Shooting Phase if it Runs. - The Titan gains +1 Attack and +1 Initiative in the next Assault Phase if it is in close combat. If the Titan lose multiple Hull Points at once, it gains one bonus for each HP. These bonuses are temporary: If the Titan does not Run in its next Shooting Phase, it loses all moving bonuses; if it does not fight in the next Assault Phase, it loses all bonuses to A and I. Subsequent HP losses will, of course, give the Titan new bonuses.
Design Notes: Trying to keep it simple, so it's basically a Warhound that trades one of its two Void Shields for Rage, Shield of Faith (6++), and That Which Kills Us Makes Us Stronger. I think this is a serious net gain, whose value I'd guestimate as +80 points.
Comments? How do we improve (a) costing and (b) the rules themselves?
SisterSydney wrote:Oh, right, stomping on things! That reminds me:
Spoiler:
Options: The Penitent Titan may take either of the following (but not both):
Chainscythe anklets: ?? Points Giant chainblades jury-rigged to the Titan's mechanical ankles whir to bloody life as it crushes the heretic underfoot. A Penitent Titan with chainscythe anklets uses the Large Blast template for Stomp attacks.
Repentia Racks: 30 points Handrails and footholds crudely welded onto the Titan's leg armor let it carry fanatically fearless passengers into battle. The Titan counts as an open-topped transport for 20 infantry models. However, each model must have the Fearless special rule or the And They Shall Know No Fear special rule. (Models that do not have the rule themselves but which gain it from an independent character joining their unit may not ride). In addition, every time an enemy shooting or melee attack hits the Titan with a to-hit roll of 6, one of the units riding the Titan takes a hit with same Strength, AP, and special rules.
Design notes: 2 points per passenger = 40, -25% for the restrictions and chance of being killed.
I don't think 20 will reasonably fit on just the legs. 10-15 maybe. Remember that Open Topped is worth 10pts. I figure at 10, with Open-Topped and the drawbacks it'd be roughly 25-30pts.
Ovion, thanks, that's helpful. So what would you say is the total cost of the base Titan (without options) if we put all the ideas together into a revised version?
Everyone who's not Ovion should obviously chime in as well, there's lots to talk about besides point costs.
Penitent Titan: 850 points
Revised fluff:
Spoiler:
In some corners of the Imperium that are even darker than the rest, worship takes on gruesome forms. There are worlds where the devout build mighty effigies of the God-Emperor and fill them with heretics and criminals -- or with the innocent -- before setting the whole thing on fire. The Penitent Titan is the same cruel concept made into a war machine: A converted Warhound Scout Titan with condemned sinners not only wired immovably in every crew station but bound screaming to the outside of the armour. Cables crudely plugged into the skulls of the condemned ensure they experience not only their own torment but one another's, and each time one dies it sends the survivors into new ecstasies of self-annihilation. At the helm, where a Princeps of the Legio Titanicus would normally stand, there is always a disgraced Imperial servant of high degree, some cardinal, field marshal, or great noble whose rank demands greater agonies than those inflicted by a plebian Penitent Engine, and into this damned commander's brain pour all the agonies of his captive crew. Most in the Adeptus Mechanicus revile Penitent Titans as ad hoc abominations against the Machine God, blasphemies perpetrated by the technophobic ignoramuses of the Ecclesiarchy. Only the most heterodox of Forge Worlds would ever build such a thing. Nevertheless, the Ministorum manages to recover crippled Warhounds abandoned on old battlefields or in ancient ruins. That done, the Imperial Cult can always recruit rogue Tech-Priests to oversee the crude repairs and conversions, though the bulk of the work is done by pious artisans with more enthusiasm than skill, and the complex Void Shields in particular are almost never restored to full capacity. The resulting jury-rigged monstrosity rattles with mechanical malfunctions and human suffering, but no matter: The Ecclesiarchy needs neither it nor its condemned occupants to long survive.
WS:4 BS:2 S:10 Armour:14/13/12 I:2 A:2 HP:9
A Penitent Titan is a Lord of War choice for a Codex:Adepta Sororitas army.
Unit Type: Super-heavy Walker Unit Composition: 1 Penitent Titan
Wargear: Titanic Eviscerator: Range 0" S:10 AP:1 Armourbane, Melee Must choose one of the following arm weapons, at no additional points cost: - Inferno Gun - Vulcan Mega-Bolter - Melta Cannon - a second Titanic Eviscerator
Special Rules: Agile Fleet Rage Shield of Faith Void Shields (1)
That Which Kills Us Makes Us Stronger Every time the Penitent Titan loses a Hull Point, the controlling player may choose one of the following bonuses, but you may not choose the same bonus twice in a row: - The Titan moves an additional 2" whenever it Runs during the Shooting phase, to a maximum of 12". - The Titan gains +1 Attack, to a maximum of 10. - The Titan gains +2 Initiative, to a maximum of 10. and +1 Initiative in the next Assault Phase if it is in close combat. If the Titan loses multiple Hull Points at once, it gains one bonus for each HP. The Penitent Titan can never regain lost HP from Repair rolls or for any other reason.
Options:
Chainscythe anklets: 60 Points Giant chainblades jury-rigged to the Titan's mechanical ankles whir to bloody life as it crushes the heretic underfoot. A Penitent Titan with chainscythe anklets uses the Large Blast template for Stomp attacks.
Repentia Racks: 30 points Handrails and footholds crudely welded onto the Titan's leg armor let it carry fanatically fearless passengers into battle. The Titan counts as an open-topped transport for 12 infantry models. However, each model must have the Fearless special rule or the And They Shall Know No Fear special rule. (Models that do not have the rule themselves but which gain it from an independent character joining their unit may not ride). In addition, every time an enemy shooting or melee attack hits the Titan with a to-hit roll of 6, one of the units riding the Titan takes a hit with same Strength, AP, and special rules.
Design notes -- changes from original version:
Spoiler:
- The big one: That Which Kills Us Makes Us Stronger now gives permanent bonuses like the "Fueled by Rage" rule for the Khorne Lord of Skulls (giggle), only it's better because the Penitent Titan can choose one of three effects. But you can't Repair this thing in combat -- it won't fething stand still long enough! - With the new, improved TWKUMUS, I've upped the cost to 850 points, way more than a regular Warhound and almost as much as a Lord of Skulls. But that's glorious guesswork. - Added more fluff! - Attacks are up from A:1 to A:2 (+1 on the charge with Rage, +1 per Wound). - Now has Fleet. - CCW is now a Titanic Eviscerator with S:10 AP:1 Armourbane. - The other arm weapon may be any of the Sororitas "holy trinity" -- though maybe the Melta Cannon is too big for a Warhound-sized arm? - Repentia Racks' capacity is smaller and saner, but still enough for a full Repentia Squad plus Priest plus some other fearless Independent Character.
Is this closer to the grimdark atrocity that we all want?
My main problem with the new fluff, is that something the Mechanicum sees as abominations agianst the machine god, and that uses stolen titans (that are most holy), and are worked on by rogued tech priests, are going to have a mechanicum fleet and likely a Titan Legion knocking at its door.
^ That. Titans are some serious business for the Admech.
It's comparable to if the Admech kidnapped a Living Saint and turned the protesting Saint into a servitor.
As you can imagine, certain people would be very unhappy about that.
You really should balance the weapons. The Melta Cannon is a Reaver weapon while the other ranged weapons are Warhound weapons. The Cannon is far superior.
Also, front armour 14 for such a jury-rigged thing seems OTT. 13, like a Stompa, at most I'd say.
Replace Melta Cannon with a smaller equivalent. Nerf front armour, redesign fluff, reduce pts cost appropriately. That should do the trick.
Yes, I'm not running an enlargement spam thread. (Though we could homebrew something...).
And I'll tone down the fluff, y'all's objections made sense. How about
"The Adeptus Mechanicus is deeply divided about the Penitent Titan. Most Forgeworlds disdain it as a prime example of Ecclesiarchical excess and barbarism. Some consider it an outright abomination against the Machine God (wars have been fought over such things). A few Forge Worlds, however, see Penitence as a fitting end for Titans whose core systems are damaged or decaying beyond all repair. It is this part of the Mechanicum that sends teams of Tech-Priests to oversee the restoration of crippled Warhounds recovered from old battlefields or ancient ruins, though most of the crude repairs and modifications are performed by Ministorum artisans with more fervor than skill. The resulting jury-rigged monstrosity rattles with mechanical failures and human pain, its reactor soon to give out -- but no matter: Its masters need neither machine nor crew to long survive.
I'm really tempted to give it a Destroyer melee weapon rather than S:10 Armourbane, whose max impact is one penetrating hit per attack. I know many people dislike Destroyer weapons -- I consider the rule an inelegant kludge myself -- but if anything in the game should routinely one-shot tanks and stagger superheavies with D3+1 HP damage, it's a space chainsaw the size of a city bus....
SisterSydney wrote: I'm really tempted to give it a Destroyer melee weapon rather than S:10 Armourbane, whose max impact is one penetrating hit per attack. I know many people dislike Destroyer weapons -- I consider the rule an inelegant kludge myself -- but if anything in the game should routinely one-shot tanks and stagger superheavies with D3+1 HP damage, it's a space chainsaw the size of a city bus....
How about allowing it to take a titan power fist as arm weapon (so instead of one of the guns) for extra points?
Still sad GK's arent Inquisition Buddies (Battle Brothers) with the Sisters though.
They are dirty, dirty psykers.
Overall... not real sure I am into everything on the battlefield being this blinged-out Ecclesiarchal work of war-art... except the super-heavy, which is a gangly beast of flesh and metal that looks like it was built by a team of Orks and Skaven rather than human beings.
Though, I'm also not a fan of the SOB super-heavy being a Living Saint, but bigger. Though making it a "disposable Titan" makes some sense... it just seems to me that it would take a large number of apostate Tech-Priests (yes, they do exist) to make such a thing happen.... and I'm not sure that the psykers/heretics strapped to it would need to be anything more than passengers. Let the War-Spirit of the Titan do its thing for as long as it will last. Maybe there's one of those anime-esque evil essence-stealing devices that look like some high-tech restraint thing with tubes attaching to people's heads and all, and it is this device that drains the psychicness out of the prisoners to power the War-Spirit (or something along those lines).
Perhaps this thing should have only anti-infantry ranged weapons (bolters and flamers) and its melee attacks primarily used for wrecking vehicles, enemy titans, and other super-heavies? Like a Warhound with two huge chainsaw blades for arms, or a Titan powerfist and a chainsaw arm? Plus, of course, its stomps and its various hull-mounted weapons.
Oh, there should also be, like, a 10" pie-plate or something for if/when it explodes while in combat with another unit. Titans die in impressive ways.
Brother Michael wrote:How about allowing it to take a titan power fist as arm weapon (so instead of one of the guns) for extra points?
Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying -- the current draft of the rules give it one Titanic Eviscerator and one arm gun (or you can take a second Eviscerator.... but not two guns). Since all Titan Destroyer melee weapons have the same stats, it doesn't really matter whether we call it a power fist, eviscerator, or Khleaver of Khorne.....
Still sad GK's arent Inquisition Buddies (Battle Brothers) with the Sisters though.
They are dirty, dirty psykers.
We had a whole discussion on Sisters' attitudes towards the GK at one point. Final verdict was that they might not even notice what the GK were doing amidst the chaos of battle -- it's not like Grey Knights shoot laser beams out of their eyes, after all, they just kind of look at you funny and your testicles explode or whatever:
BATTLE SISTER #1: Did that Marine just....
SISTER SUPERIOR: Eyes on target!
BATTLE SISTER #1: But his eyes, they...
SISTER SUPERIOR: Stop watching the Astartes!
BATTLE SISTER #2 (sing-song): Alicia has a crush!
BATTLE SISTER #1: I do not!
SISTER SUPERIOR: Would everybody just SHUT UP AND SHOOT THINGS!
SISTER: So those guys are all psykers?
INQUISITOR: The good kind! Totally sanctioned and everything!
SISTER: That one's, uh, foaming at the mouth.
INQUISITOR: Overflowing with love for the God-Emperor!
SISTER: And levitating.
INQUISITOR: It's a miracle!
SISTER: And spewing obscenities about how our corpse-god cannot save our pitiful human souls from the all-consuming hunger of the Warp.
INQUISITOR: Ah, yes. Um.
SISTER: [checks pilot light of heavy flamer is on]
INQUISITOR: It's opposites day! It's opposites day on his planet so he's really talking about how the immortal Emperor Protects! Ha! Ha!
SISTER: You're not one of those radical Inquisitors, are you?
INQUISITOR: Oh my look at the time I have to go ktxbai.
Psienesis wrote:Overall... not real sure I am into everything on the battlefield being this blinged-out Ecclesiarchal work of war-art... except the super-heavy, which is a gangly beast of flesh and metal that looks like it was built by a team of Orks and Skaven rather than human beings. ....
1) Bling is a thing the Mininstorum is big into. If you wanna play relatively level-headed Sisters, just don't buy the crazier vehicle options....
2) It took a while for me to figure out the Ecclesiarchy, but I came to realize its non-Sisters forces like the Frateris are pretty much Skaven in human form: superstitious, ignorant, and available in economy size disposable packages....
At a side note, I wonder if, when GK are forced to intervene visually, they mindwipe the Sisters afterwards like they do with Astartes or if they execute them like they do with Guardsmen?
The former seems more likely, but I can't be sure and I don't think I have read anything on it yet. Anyone?
And an upgrade for a D weapon is fine. Maybe put some kind of restriction against smaller targets since it'd be difficult to reach them down there?
It's a variant of the Warhound, and I don't think those have the "can't reach mah feets" problem the larger Titans have. I think bopping a tank on the turret would be perfectly feasible. Or you could overkill the hell out of one infantry model, I suppose.
Initial concept art for my Penintentiarius Titan. Not entirely sure how much I like it... will have to do up more later, but would like reviews on this quick sketch anyway.
It's a lighter, Penitent Enginey Warhound-ish sized affair, maybe a bit smaller.
Okay, I think this is the final version -- except oh boy do I need Ovion to check costing.
It has the new new fluff, no option for a Melta Cannon, and the Titanic Eviscerator upgraded to a Destroyer weapon, because feth restraint. I think that hits everything we've discussed, right?
EDITED (twice...) to include Ovion's costing and to fix errors. This is the finally final GIANT PENITENT ENGINE!
Penitent Titan: 775 points
Revised fluff:
Spoiler:
In some corners of the Imperium that are even darker than the rest, worship takes on gruesome forms. There are worlds where the devout build mighty effigies of the God-Emperor and fill them with heretics and criminals -- or with the innocent -- before setting the whole thing on fire. The Penitent Titan is the same cruel concept made into a war machine: A converted Warhound Scout Titan with condemned sinners not only wired immovably in every crew station but bound screaming to the outside of the armour. Cables crudely plugged into the skulls of the condemned ensure they experience not only their own torment but one another's, and each time one dies it sends the survivors into new ecstasies of self-annihilation. At the helm, where a Princeps of the Legio Titanicus would normally stand, there is always a disgraced Imperial servant of high degree, some cardinal, field marshal, or great noble whose rank demands greater agonies than those inflicted by a plebian Penitent Engine, and into this damned commander's brain pour all the agonies of his captive crew. The Adeptus Mechanicus is deeply divided about the Penitent Titan. Most Forgeworlds disdain it as a prime example of Ecclesiarchical excess and barbarism. Some consider it an outright abomination against the Machine God (wars have been fought over such things). A few Forge Worlds, however, see Penitence as a fitting end for Titans whose core systems are damaged or decaying beyond all repair. It is this part of the Mechanicum that sends teams of Tech-Priests to oversee the restoration of crippled Warhounds recovered from old battlefields or ancient ruins, though most of the crude repairs and modifications are performed by Ministorum artisans with more fervor than skill. The resulting jury-rigged monstrosity rattles with mechanical failures and human pain, its reactor soon to give out -- but no matter: Its masters need neither machine nor crew to long survive.
WS:4 BS:2 S:10 Armour:14/13/12 I:2 A:2 HP:9
A Penitent Titan is a Lord of War choice for a Codex:Adepta Sororitas army.
Unit Type: Super-heavy Walker Unit Composition: 1 Penitent Titan
Wargear: Titanic Eviscerator: Range 0" S: D AP:1 Melee Must choose one of the following arm weapons, at no additional points cost: - Inferno Gun - Vulcan Mega-Bolter - a second Titanic Eviscerator
Special Rules: Agile Fleet Rage Shield of Faith Void Shields (1)
That Which Kills Us Makes Us Stronger Every time the Penitent Titan loses a Hull Point, the controlling player may choose one of the following bonuses, but you may not choose the same bonus twice in a row: - The Titan moves an additional 2" whenever it Runs during the Shooting phase, to a maximum of 12". - The Titan gains +1 Attack, to a maximum of 10. - The Titan gains +1 Initiative, to a maximum of 10. If the Titan loses multiple Hull Points at once, it gains one bonus for each HP. The Penitent Titan can never regain lost HP from Repair rolls or for any other reason.
Options:
The Penitent Titan may take either of the following leg upgrades, but not both:
Chainscythe Anklets: 60 Points Giant chainblades jury-rigged to the Titan's mechanical ankles whir to bloody life as it crushes the heretic underfoot. A Penitent Titan with chainscythe anklets uses the Large Blast template for Stomp attacks.
Repentia Racks: 30 points Handrails and footholds crudely welded onto the Titan's leg armor let it carry fanatically fearless passengers into battle. The Titan counts as an open-topped transport for 12 infantry models. However, each model must have the Fearless special rule or the And They Shall Know No Fear special rule. (Models that do not have the rule themselves but which gain it from an independent character joining their unit may not ride). In addition, every time an enemy shooting or melee attack hits the Titan with a to-hit roll of 6, one of the units riding the Titan takes a hit with same Strength, AP, and special rules.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I like the idea of a barely together Titan running on faith and grease tromping across a battlefield till it shuts down.
Yes, that's basically it. Except less "tromping" and more "staggering drunkenly at terrific speed in a fiery zigzag towards the enemy lines carrying a chainsaw the size of a city bus."
SisterSydney wrote: Okay, I think this is the final version -- except oh boy do I need Ovion to check costing.
It has the new new fluff, no option for a Melta Cannon, and the Titanic Eviscerator upgraded to a Destroyer weapon, because feth restraint. I think that hits everything we've discussed, right?
Penitent Titan: 850 points
Revised fluff:
Spoiler:
In some corners of the Imperium that are even darker than the rest, worship takes on gruesome forms. There are worlds where the devout build mighty effigies of the God-Emperor and fill them with heretics and criminals -- or with the innocent -- before setting the whole thing on fire.
The Penitent Titan is the same cruel concept made into a war machine: A converted Warhound Scout Titan with condemned sinners not only wired immovably in every crew station but bound screaming to the outside of the armour. Cables crudely plugged into the skulls of the condemned ensure they experience not only their own torment but one another's, and each time one dies it sends the survivors into new ecstasies of self-annihilation. At the helm, where a Princeps of the Legio Titanicus would normally stand, there is always a disgraced Imperial servant of high degree, some cardinal, field marshal, or great noble whose rank demands greater agonies than those inflicted by a plebian Penitent Engine, and into this damned commander's brain pour all the agonies of his captive crew.
The Adeptus Mechanicus is deeply divided about the Penitent Titan. Most Forgeworlds disdain it as a prime example of Ecclesiarchical excess and barbarism. Some consider it an outright abomination against the Machine God (wars have been fought over such things). A few Forge Worlds, however, see Penitence as a fitting end for Titans whose core systems are damaged or decaying beyond all repair. It is this part of the Mechanicum that sends teams of Tech-Priests to oversee the restoration of crippled Warhounds recovered from old battlefields or ancient ruins, though most of the crude repairs and modifications are performed by Ministorum artisans with more fervor than skill. The resulting jury-rigged monstrosity rattles with mechanical failures and human pain, its reactor soon to give out -- but no matter: Its masters need neither machine nor crew to long survive.
Spoiler:
WS:4 BS:2 S:10 Armour:14/13/12 I:2 A:2 HP:9
A Penitent Titan is a Lord of War choice for a [i]Codex:Adepta Sororitas army.
Unit Type: Super-heavy Walker
Unit Composition: 1 Penitent Titan
Wargear:
Titanic Eviscerator: Range 0" S: D AP:1 Melee
Must choose one of the following arm weapons, at no additional points cost:
- Inferno Gun
- Vulcan Mega-Bolter
- a second Titanic Eviscerator
Special Rules:
Agile
Fleet
Rage
Shield of Faith
Void Shields (1)
That Which Kills Us Makes Us Stronger Every time the Penitent Titan loses a Hull Point, the controlling player may choose one of the following bonuses, but you may not choose the same bonus twice in a row:
- The Titan moves an additional 2" whenever it Runs during the Shooting phase, to a maximum of 12".
- The Titan gains +1 Attack, to a maximum of 10.
- The Titan gains +2 Initiative, to a maximum of 10.
and +1 Initiative in the next Assault Phase if it is in close combat.
If the Titan loses multiple Hull Points at once, it gains one bonus for each HP.
The Penitent Titan can never regain lost HP from Repair rolls or for any other reason.
Options:
Chainscythe Anklets: 60 Points
Giant chainblades jury-rigged to the Titan's mechanical ankles whir to bloody life as it crushes the heretic underfoot. A Penitent Titan with chainscythe anklets uses the Large Blast template for Stomp attacks.
Repentia Racks: 30 points
Handrails and footholds crudely welded onto the Titan's leg armor let it carry fanatically fearless passengers into battle.
The Titan counts as an open-topped transport for 12 infantry models. However, each model must have the Fearless special rule or the And They Shall Know No Fear special rule. (Models that do not have the rule themselves but which gain it from an independent character joining their unit may not ride).
In addition, every time an enemy shooting or melee attack hits the Titan with a to-hit roll of 6, one of the units riding the Titan takes a hit with same Strength, AP, and special rules.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I like the idea of a barely together Titan running on faith and grease tromping across a battlefield till it shuts down.
Yes, that's basically it. Except less "tromping" and more "staggering drunkenly at terrific speed in a fiery zigzag towards the enemy lines carrying a chainsaw the size of a city bus."
Ah nuts.
See, what I'd done before, is cost up the previous version of your Penitent Titan... aaaand then completely forgotten to actually put it in the post where I costed the anklets and racks.
Was still sat in Notepad on my laptop in the kitchen.
Original costing:
Warhound 720
+1I +10
-1 Void Shield -25
+Rage +10
+Shield of Faith +10
+TWKUMUS +15
Total: 740
New version:
You need to put back the 'may only choose one' for the options.
Having both is crazy, as having people hanging off the legs, that then need to drop through the blades to get off is a bad plan. The switch from temporary to permament increases for That Which Kills Us increases its costs significantly, a little tricky to actually price.
New costing:
Warhound 720
+1I +10
+1A +10
-1 Void Shield -25
+Rage +10
+Shield of Faith +10
+TWKUMUS (+2" run +10, +1A +10, +2I +20, +1I-conditional +5, never repair -10) +35
Total: 770
1) Good catch on the leg options -- will edit to fix.
2! Are +1A, Rage, etc. really only worth 10 apiece for a unit this massive, though? Surely that should scale up with how brutal the +1A you get actually is -- maybe not from one infantry model to another, but surely for a Destroyer weapon.
3) Also, in your costing of TWKUMUS, why does the bonuses being "conditional" make them worth more instead of less? Surely having to take a wound to get your +1A or whatever is a disadvantage?
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS: I also edited the TWKUMUS bonus for Initiative down from +2I per wound taken to +1I. Looking over Ovion's costing made me realize I is as valuable as A because if your low I lets the enemy kill you before you strike, your Attacks value is effectively zero....
1) Good catch on the leg options -- will edit to fix.
2! Are +1A, Rage, etc. really only worth 10 apiece for a unit this massive, though? Surely that should scale up with how brutal the +1A you get actually is -- maybe not from one infantry model to another, but surely for a Destroyer weapon.
3) Also, in your costing of TWKUMUS, why does the bonuses being "conditional" make them worth more instead of less? Surely having to take a wound to get your +1A or whatever is a disadvantage?
Yes, I do, as there is no precedent for that specific option, I revert to the standard costing. Strength of the Weapon is built into the weapon, and has already been paid for. The additional attacks are seperate.
3: The way it reads, whatever options you choose you get +1 I in the next assault phase. That's the conditional part.
The rest is permament boosts, so whenever it loses a HP (normally a reasonable negative), it gains a positive. Potential +120pts in stats from that (+8I and +4A), with a temporary extra +8I along the way. +35 is probably reasonable for that.
Edit: with a reduction of -1I per boost, drop the cost by 10pts to 760.
760 it is! The final version is here, edited into the post earlier rather than reprinting the whole thing.
I was tempted to bump it up to 775 just for round numbers (or 777, but that seemed, um, blasphemous), but 760 has a certain "we really calculated this precisely, see?"
HERETIC #1: Hey, was that church there before? HERETIC #2: It's moving. HERETIC #3: It's a tank! HERETIC #1: It's a church! HERETIC #2: It's madness! CONFESSOR ON FRONT TOWER: Madness? This. Is. CHURCHTANK!
Imagine this. On tracks. With guns. The two smaller towers are the front.
[EDIT: Revised rules and significantly revised costing are here]
Adventus Battle Chapel: 1,730 points A black steel cathedral on massive treads, the Battle Chapel uplifts the spirits of the faithful and crushes the bodies of the unclean. From each of its three towers fires a Titan-sized exemplar of the Adepta Sororitas' "holy trinity": a Melta Cannon and an Inferno Gun in the two front towers, a Vulcan-Mega Bolter equipped to sweep the sky of enemy aircraft in the lofty central tower. Sixty Battle Sisters can fire out from its galleries, while its capacious nave can hold 60 more Sisters or two normal-sized tanks, ready to roar out when the sacramental assault ramp drops down between the two forward towards. Choirs of Progena sing sweet hymns of hatred that, vastly magnified, emanate from the Battle Chapel in all directions, while a vast cloud of black exhaust pours constantly from the massive engines in back, where the altar of an ordinary church would be.
BS:4 Armour:14/14/13 HP:27
Unit type: Super-heavy vehicle (Lord of War)
Wargear: Vulcan Mega-Bolter (main tower) Inferno Gun (left front tower) Melta Cannon (right front tower)
Holy Light: As the massive war machine crashes into the enemy lines, its gilded armour gleaming and its sacramental spotlights blazing, the eyes of the evildoers are dazzled by a pure white light and their ears fill with celestial music. Then the faithful charge out of the vehicle and rip them apart. When a unit charges out of a transport with Holy Light, it counts as having assault grenades and inflicts a Blind attack on all enemies it is charging, resolved at Initiative 10.
Icon of Courage Looming literally larger than life, these holy images of Imperial saints past look sternly down on today's combatants and forbid them to waver for an instant. Friendly units within 12" of a vehicle with Icons of Courage re-roll failed Morale, Fear, and Pinning tests.
Vox Dei A soul-stirring, ear-splitting array of high-powered laud hailers inspires Sororitas at great distances. All friendly units within 18" of a vehicle equipped with a Vox Dei re-roll failed Leadership tests when attempting an Act of Faith.
Special Rules: Assault Vehicle Interceptor and Skyfire (Vulcan Mega-Bolter only)
Choirs of Thunder: Songs of praise and pealing bells ring out from the Battle Chapel, clearly audible over the roar of battle. As long as they are within 12" of the Battle Chapel, any units from Codex:Adepta Sororitas and allied detachments that are Battle Brothers with the Sororitas gain the War Hymns special rule. However, they may only use the "The Emperor Protects" and "Righteousness of the Emperor" hymns. Any other units lack the faith in the divinity of the Emperor required to benefit from these rules.
Ponderous Beyond Belief: During its Movement phase, the Adventus Battle Chapel may either move 6" directly forward or pivot up to 45 degrees, but not both. The Chapel may never move in the Shooting phase.
Transport: Transport capacity: 120 models. The Battle Chapel may carry Bulky, Very Bulky, and Extremely Bulky models. In addition, it may carry one or two smaller vehicles (but not super-heavy vehicles!), which count as 30 models each; vehicles that are transports may carry models inside without taking up additional room in the Battle Chapel. Fire Points: 20 on each side, 10 front, and 10 rear. Access points: One at the front and one on each side.
Options: May add up to four pairs of side sponsons, each armed with one of the following: - Exorcist Missile Launcher: 65 points - Flamestorm Cannon and twin-linked heavy bolter: 50 points - Magna-Melta: 70 points
Design notes:
Spoiler:
a) To start with, I kludged together three of Storm Queen tanks (Stormlord variants) that we costed up earlier: That's 3 Titan-scale weapons (remember they're all equal in cost, bizarrely), 3x40 = 120 passengers with half of them able to shoot out, and 3x9 = 27 Hull Points, for the cost of 3x560 = +1,680 points.
b) A Storm Queen (i.e. a modified Stormlord) counts as open-topped for embarking and disembarking. Making this an Assault Vehicle with three access points seems equivalent. O points.
c) But this thing's maneuverability is fething terrible: It's half as fast as a Baneblade and less than half as maneuverable, but let's just call that a 25% discount off the above: -420 points.
d) Now those Baneblade-derived tanks are only Armour 14/13/12; to get 14/14/13, you need +3 AV (+1 to each side and +1 to the back). Ovion costs +1 AV as +10 points for a normal vehicle, but, measuring in HP, this thing is three times the size of a Blaneblade, which is three times the size of a regular tank, so it's 3x3x3x10 = +270 points.
e) The Vulcan Mega-Bolter gets skyfire and interceptor. Normally 20 points for al the weapons on a regular/vehicle unit, so for a single Titan-scale weapon, say +30 points.
f) Choirs of Thunder = Kriegsminaret = 90 points (more than on the Storm Queen because it doesn't take away passenger capacity), +10 because you can't shoot it off like the Kriegsminaret = +100 points.
g) From the Rolling Chapel Equipment List, Holy Light = 25 points, Icons of Courage = 20 points, Vox Dei = 25 Points, total = +70 points
h) Sponson options are based on Ovion's cost for the Exorcist Missile launcher by itself and for Flamestorm +TLHB sponsons; then the Predator Infernus counts a Magna-Melta as a +30 upgrade from the Flamestorm Cannon, but I figured taking away the TLHB would be worth -10 points (sponsons seem to get their TLHBs at a discount....).
SisterSydney wrote: This horrific thing? (Sorry I don't know how to insert the image directly). Yes, that's adequately grimdark. Not a superheavy, though, more of a chariot -- except you can kill the people dragging it in close combat.... hrm.
Also, I've updated the Kriegsminaret and Armoured Pulpit to let them be destroyed on "weapon destroyed results.
No I believe he is talking about this:
Nope. I was talking about the chariot thing. But scaled way up.
Brother Haraldus:
Well, I want the Vulcan to be able to fire either at ground targets or surface ones, and Skyfire plus Interceptor is the only way (that I know of) for a ground vehicle to do that without writing a new special rule.
I'm aware that Interceptor also lets you do nasty, nasty things to ground units coming in from Reserves, but honestly if any weapon can see incoming reserves from a great distance and in time to shoot them up, it'd be a weapon mounted on a freakin' cathedral tower....
Boss Fearless:
The chariot thing is awesome. I suspect even scaled up it's still more of a Fast Attack or Heavy Support option rather than a superheavy. (The number of models required to pull a Baneblade on wheels would be, um, hundreds?). What kind of rules were you thinking about?
In My Graven Image:
The more things to mount on the back of a Stormlord/Storm Queen, the better. What were you thinking of it doing rules-wise? I don't know what it does in Warmachine.
SisterSydney wrote: Brother Haraldus:
Well, I want the Vulcan to be able to fire either at ground targets or surface ones, and Skyfire plus Interceptor is the only way (that I know of) for a ground vehicle to do that without writing a new special rule.
I'm aware that Interceptor also lets you do nasty, nasty things to ground units coming in from Reserves, but honestly if any weapon can see incoming reserves from a great distance and in time to shoot them up, it'd be a weapon mounted on a freakin' cathedral tower....
Boss Fearless:
The chariot thing is awesome. I suspect even scaled up it's still more of a Fast Attack or Heavy Support option rather than a superheavy. (The number of models required to pull a Baneblade on wheels would be, um, hundreds?). What kind of rules were you thinking about?
In My Graven Image:
The more things to mount on the back of a Stormlord/Storm Queen, the better. What were you thinking of it doing rules-wise? I don't know what it does in Warmachine.
To me the Vulkan seems too slow and cumbersome to intercept say, Deathmarks teleporting in, before they can even do anything.
A Melta Cannon and Inferno Gun together with that troop capacity is sufficient anti-ground IMO.
Giving it a special rule ( ) that allows it to fire at both but not Intercept is what I'd do.
Give it an 'optional skyfire'.
Like 'Enhanced Radar Array' or some such, that allows it to choose to fire as Skyfire or just ignore it and fire as normal.
Ovion wrote: Give it an 'optional skyfire'.
Like 'Enhanced Radar Array' or some such, that allows it to choose to fire as Skyfire or just ignore it and fire as normal.
Like the Tau Velocity Tracker.
+20pts.
Would arguably be worth far more on a Titan.
If a few S7 missiles get Skyfire it has a lot less impact compared to the powerful Mega-Bolter...
Yeah, scaling costs up for Titanic things is tricky. In this case it is a bit easier because we're only talking about one gigantic weapon of mass death instead of all the weapons on the war machine.
I also realize I forgot that part of the points you pay for a Stormlord/Storm Queen go for "all power to weapons" -- ie shooting the Vulcan twice if you don't move. Just applying that same benefit to the three Titan-scale weapons on this thing would be OP.... and no one would ever bother to move it. Thoughts?
Ovion wrote: Give it an 'optional skyfire'. Like 'Enhanced Radar Array' or some such, that allows it to choose to fire as Skyfire or just ignore it and fire as normal.
Like the Tau Velocity Tracker. +20pts.
Would arguably be worth far more on a Titan.
If a few S7 missiles get Skyfire it has a lot less impact compared to the powerful Mega-Bolter...
It's 20pts to give the model it. So that's say... the Str8, AP1 Rail Rifle. The slew of Str7 Missiles on a Broadside. The Plasma Fusion Blasters of a battlesuit.
The Ion Accelerator or Heavy Burst Cannon and Smart Missile System of a Riptide.
All 20pts. That's what the rule is worth.
That the gun is bigger and stronger is built into the cost of the gun. That the platform is bigger and nastier, is built into the unit.
If it's only applied to the Vulcan Mega Bolter, then the +20 should be fine.
SisterSydney wrote: Yeah, scaling costs up for Titanic things is tricky. In this case it is a bit easier because we're only talking about one gigantic weapon of mass death instead of all the weapons on the war machine.
I also realize I forgot that part of the points you pay for a Stormlord/Storm Queen go for "all power to weapons" -- ie shooting the Vulcan twice if you don't move. Just applying that same benefit to the three Titan-scale weapons on this thing would be OP.... and no one would ever bother to move it. Thoughts?
I was thinking like a Praetor, with the 2 heavy bolters swapped for heavy flamers (free on data sheet), a 300pt superheavy assault tank with, essentially, a giant exorcist
Giant Exorcist Praetor is a neat idea. So is a Sisterized Crassus...
I have a mental image of the Ecclesiarchy acquiring a whole bunch of Gorgons (carries 50, open-topped, but you can't shoot out of it) and proudly presenting them to the Sisters of Battle, who scornfully reply "You want us to ride in that thing? STFU and get us CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT."
And then the Ministorum sadly fills the Gorgons with Frateris Militia, leading the Sisters to name the vehicles "Dump Trucks" and "Buckets o' Martyrs."
SisterSydney wrote: I also realize I forgot that part of the points you pay for a Stormlord/Storm Queen go for "all power to weapons" -- ie shooting the Vulcan twice if you don't move. Just applying that same benefit to the three Titan-scale weapons on this thing would be OP.... and no one would ever bother to move it. Thoughts?
Limit the All Power thing to one Primary Weapon.
But... but... but you pay for it three times! [sniff]
Hadn't really looked at the unit yet. If it's literally just 3 of them in one, then it may be well fine.
Otherwise, modify it and cost appropriately.
Looking at it. hoboy.
Opentopped means the entire Hull is an access point.
Furthermore, going slow isn't worth 25% of the cost.
Each 6" is worth about 10pts, then the turning is probably worth a bit more.
Call it -50 not -420.
Yeah, costing is hard....and 40K's small boards relative to the range of Titan weapons make slow speed less of a problem. Maybe if we come up with a point savings from getting rid of "All Power To Weapons," we can still keep it under 2,000 points...
Also, I didn't (intentionally) grant it open-topped, even only "for purposes of embarking and disembarking": it's an Assault a Vehicle with three access points and a finite but large number of fire points (60!). That may change valuation a bit too, though I thought it was close enough to a giant Stormord.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS: is my costing for +3 AV = 270 points reasonable, seeing as this is 9 times as large as an ordinary vehicle (27 HP vs 3) for which your system (I think) says +1AV = 10 points?
I come from a line of thought that focuses more on how to fit a concept into existing rules rather than homebrewing new rules to fit a concept, so I apologize beforehand that my following comments go somewhat against the thread.
I see two legitimate routes to fielding a Penitent Titan within the existing rules, legal for Apoc or Escalation: Greater PT (Reaver) and Lesser PT (Warhound).
The Lesser is easier and cheaper to model rules-wise, as a "Warhound" with twin Flamer "arms" and the Titan's inherent Stomp attack filling in for the two massive CCWs the "Flamers" are mounted to. 720pts, and legal in any Sister list.
The Greater is a better model for an actual up-sized Penitent Engine, with two TCCWs for the arms, and a carapace "mounted" Flamer standing in for the two arm mounted Flamers. The torrent capable Inferno Cannon simulates both Flamers being fired together as a single Helstorm template. The two TCCW will net you 0-12-ish Str D hits, a good model for to hugianormous melee arms.
While I've yet to run a Warhound with this set up, it does stsnd as a pretty decent melee oriented Titan with phenomenal anti-infantry capability. The Reaver version is something I run in the form of my Brawler Light Battle Titan, a Reaver with 2 TCCW and a Vortex Missile. This guy is awesomely distracting, and only marginally useful, but on so fun to outflank!
Interesting. But how do two Titan Power Fists on a Reaver give you "0-12" hits? The Reaver has A:2, +1 for an additional close combat weapon -- or am I missing something?
But yes, I can see why a Reaver with two Titan Power Fists would be a little overspecialized for close-range fighting -- especially if you have an Inferno Gun on top instead of a Vortex Missile.
Ah. Given how many people hated D weapons in the past, I can understood how "you get extra attacks and each hit auto-kills a tank" might best be dialed down to "you get your normal number of attacks and each hit auto-kills a tank."
Well, a Reaver currently has 2 base attacks, so would have 2+1 Str D attacks with 2 TCCW, which deal 0-12 wounds/hull points per successful hit, for a total of 36 if you roll all 6's, 0 if you miss, or an average of 6 in most combats. That does not include Hammer of Wrath nor Charge bonus.
Ah, ok. You're thinking of the Hull Points you can potentially take off an enemy Superheavy -- which is, wow, a lot.
I was thinking about wading into a bunch of normal sized units and wailing on them -- for which a Destroyer melee weapon is pretty inefficient, since you're overkilling a handful of targets and leaving the rest alone. Normal-sized units are what Stomp is for (in melee, that is; you can also just stand off and fire blast weapons, but that's not in character for the Penitent Titan specifically).
Did a little math on Titanic melee combat. 9-HP superheavies -- Warhounds, Penitent Titans (which are just Warhound variants), and all the variant Baneblades -- actually die pretty fast to a Titan optimized for close combat,
Since there's very little terrain that gives a cover save to a Titan, basically a battle between a normal firepower-heavy Titan and a crazy melee-specialist Titan comes down to whether the shooter can kill the assaulter before it charges, which in turn is a matter of raw speed (go, Warhound!), HP (go, Reaver!), and how far apart they started (go, ludicrously small gameboards!)
The tactical dilemma that our homebrewed Penitent Titan poses is that it has the "That Which Kills Us Makes Us Stronger" special rule, when means the more you shoot it, the more Attacks, Initiative, and movement it gets.... until it drops dead. So you really, really, really don't want to shoot it up unless you're sure you're going to shoot it dead before it can charge -- but you also don't want to spend too much of your army's firepower shooting at the DISTRACTION TITAN and letting the rest of the enemy force move up unmolested. And Penititan makes an especially good distraction because its 6++ Shield of Faith save means that 17% of the time hits from non-Destroyer weapons will just bounce off hilariously. "Goddammit I just hit you with my Battle Cannon/Melta Cannon/Baneblade Cannon/Skullhurler and it got deflected by your fething beliefs???"
Quick boil-down of my math (which may, y'know, be wrong): Jeffersonian's Reaver maxed out for melee combat with two Titan Power Fists can kill a Baneblade in a single charge most of the time and a Warhound or Penitent Titan some of the time. A Penitent Titan can kill either a Baneblade or a Warhound most of the time if it gets the charge. If it's taken enough damage to really power up, it has a good change of killing a Reaver. And the Penitent Titan has higher initiative (I:2 vs. I:1, even without using "TWKUMUS" for an Initiative boost) so it's getting the first shot in all these cases. That said, if the Penititan charges a Reaver and doesn't kill it, and that Reaver has two Titan Power fists, the Penititan is probably toast.
Stop! Mathhammer time:
Spoiler:
A hit with a Destroyer weapon does, on average, 3.75 Hull Points of damage to a super-heavy vehicle. (It has an 83% chance of killing a lesser vehicle at a blow).
A Reaver Titan (WS:2 A:2) with two Titan Power Fists (+1 A) on the charge (+1A) gets 4 Destroyer attacks, with a - 50% chance of hitting another Titan (Penitent or otherwise) = 2 hits on average = 7 HP damage. That's a nearly-dead Warhound (or, much of the time, a thoroughly dead Warhound). - 67% chance of hitting a non-walker superheavy that's moved = 2.7 hits on average = 10.5 HP damage. That's a dead Baneblade right there.
A Penitent Titan (WS:4 A:2) with a single Titanic Eviscerator (i.e. no extra attacks) on the charge (+2A with rage) also gets 4 Destroyer attacks, with a - 67% chance of hitting either another Titan or a superheavy = 2.7 hits on average = 10.5 HP damage.
A Penitent Titan that's lost a Hull Point and used "That Which Kills Us Makes Us Stronger" to get an extra attack gets 5 Destroyer attacks on the charge, averaging 12.6 HP damage. A Penititan that's taken three HP and used two of them to get extra attacks (TWKUMUS doesn't let you take the same bonus twice in a row) gets 6! Destroyer attacks on the charge, averaging 15 HP damage. A half-dead Penititan that's lost 5 HP and gotten three extra attacks gets 7 Destroyer attacks on the charge, averaging 17.6 HP damage -- that's a nearly 50% chance of killing a Reaver in one round. A nearly-dead Penititan that's lost 7 HP (just two left!) and gotten four extra attacks gets 8 Destroyer attacks on the charge, averaging 20 HP damage -- if you don't kill that Reaver, your dice dislike you today.
(Or the Penititan could take two Titanic Eviscerators and get the 5 attacks without having to lose a HP first -- but honestly if the enemy hasn't taken an HP off you before you get into close combat, you're doing it wrong.
Math behind the math:
Spoiler:
Attacks: Reavers have A:2, Warhounds have A:1. Penitent Titans have A:2, +1 extra on the charge for Rage, +1 per two wounds taken (if you take all the +1A bonuses possible).
To hit: Normal Imperial Titans have WS:2, vehicles that aren't walkers have WS:1 in self-defense (assuming they've moved), the Penitent Titan has WS:4. So one normal Titan fighting another hits on 4+, i.e. 50% of the time; a normal Titan fighting a vehicle hits on 3+, i.e. 67% of the time; a Penitent Titan fighting either hits on 3+, 67% of the time. A normal Titan attacking a Penitent Titan hits on 4+, 50% of the time.
Damage: A Destroyer hit on a superheavy takes off, on average, 3.75 Hull Points. (1/6 chance of a penetrating Hit, i.e. 1 HP; 4/6 chance of D3+1 HP, on average 3 HP; 1/6 chance of D6+6 HP, on average 9.5 HP; so (1+4*3 + 9.5)/6 = 3.75)
Hoookay I like what you did here. I don't play Apocalypse or have a copy of Escalation, so I'll comment on the Deliverer Assault Shrine only.
The first thing came into my mind when I was reading its fluff was this.
It is all good by now, but I think its transport capacity should be higher, if it is going to be used alongside your Frateris Militia. And instead of POTMs, the Shrine may have a version of the All Aboard ! rule of FW Grot Mega Tank, since it is that big, and have a full load of enthusiastic and blood thirsty crew And gameplaywise, it allows SoB player to put out maximum firepower on the move, since its weapons are mostly short-range and without Heavy, it won't be able to use most of them. If you do this, the price should be raised.
Keep up the good work !
Neat thoughts. The Deliverer is really just a big tank, like a Land Raider, plus I imagine very few players (or 40K commanders) would fill it with Frateris rather than Repentia. But I also have an idea for a ramshackle Frateris-only transport (the Hussite) capable of carrying 20, which I need to update and revise, and that could certainly steal some ideas from the Grot Mega Tank.
A Frateris Gorgon is definitely a thing I'd like to do... though it would have an invulnerable save (6++) with the Shield of Faith. Pack it full of Frateris and the Sisters can snarkily call it the "dump truck" or "bucket o'martyrs." (In my headcanon, Battle Sisters don't have a lot of respect for untrained militia who consider themselves warriors for the faith...).
The Hussite is more along the lines of an Ork Trukk -- in fact big enough Frateris mobs can take it as a Dedicated Transport -- but there's no reason not to have a super-heavy equivalent.
I was thinking of just letting the Frateris have, basically, decommissioned Imperial Guard Gorgons. But now that I read your post, I realize that really they'd be much more likely to have some godawful thing jury-rigged out of an ore transporter or the like, so AV 14/14/10 just ain't happening.
Dropping the Gorgon's 5++ on the prow but adding Shield of Faith's 6++ all around is probably a wash in terms of points cost, but dropping AV down to 12/11/10 is losing 8 points of AV, at least -80 points by Ovion's rules of thumb and probably more since this is a superheavy. You'd also lose Amphibious and the option to carry a mortar....but maybe you could pack in even more bodies, I mean passengers.
On Frateris, way not run them as Boyz? Citizen militia hopped up on prayer using makeshift weapons and vehicles while fighting in big blobs is very much an Ork thing, and nets you Stompas, Meks, Trukks, Fightas/Bombas, all with a Gorka Morka Human theme. Get your ramshackle on with a steam powered "Punknought" filled with Frateris Boyz and wielding a Mega Eviserator while "Stompa-ing" across the battlefield being chased by Frateris in "Redneck Tank" Trukks and "Hillbilly Homebrew" Dreds. Remember, Frateris are the dudes that didn't get drafted into the Guard.
Personally, I always wanted to run a bunch of "Thunder Warrior" Nobs supported by "Frateris" Boyz as an Orkish Humie Armie.
That's definitely the easiest way to run "Mad Max" Frateris -- all you have to do is convince someone to let your Sororitas and Orks be Battle Brothers.....
But either you use a LOT of Gretchin or you make up something about how your Frateris Boyz are hopped up on combat drugs & fanaticism enough to have such good stats.
I personally see Frateris as not good enough for Guard or the WAAAGH! They're more like human Skaven, numerous, disposable, barely competent, and cowardly without the right leadership (read: Priests). I even homebrewed up an "improvised weapons" rule that lets their heavy weapons explode on them... very Skavenish.
I'll definitely have to redo those units next, since my original Mad Max Frateris homebrew predates the current Codex:Adepta Sororitas.
If they're Battle Brothers (Sisters) with the Guard, it would be very strange for them to be Allies of Convenience with the other half of the Ecclesiarchy's military force. I guess you could run your Frateris Boyz as "gee these guys are a little weak on church doctrine and basic hygiene but we can work with them for now."
SisterSydney wrote: If they're Battle Brothers (Sisters) with the Guard, it would be very strange for them to be Allies of Convenience with the other half of the Ecclesiarchy's military force. I guess you could run your Frateris Boyz as "gee these guys are a little weak on church doctrine and basic hygiene but we can work with them for now."
Frateris Militia are not an arm of the Ecclesiarchy military, as the Ecclesiarchy is restricted from having men under arms. They are, however, a self-funded, self-organized citizen militia formed by non-Guardsmen and lead by evangelical street preachers in the name of the God-Emperor of Humanity, making them a potential for trouble in the eyes of the Emperor's Daughters. If you want them as BBs, take them as IG blobs. Personally, I like the Humie Armie angle.
Legally the Frateris militia aren't a military arm of the Ecclesiarchy, no, you're quite right. Practically they are. They're a diverse and disorganized mass consisting of everything from ordinary faithful citizens, to pious gangsters (comparable to the Sicilian Mafia's attitude towards the Catholic Church), to crazed fringe cultists that the local Cardinal plans to burn at the stake as soon as they stop being useful, to the Cardinal's clerks and personal servants who got guns shoved in their hands. I'd imagine the Sisters of Battle find many of them suspect, a handful of them inspiring, and all of them frustrating. But they are always at least nominally following the Ecclesiarchy's orders and often formally get incorporated into the forces prosecuting a War of Faith. In terms of US history in the 19th century -- there's no modern equivalent that comes to mind -- the Sisters of Battle are the Ecclesiarchy's regular soldiers, professionally trained and always on duty, while the Frateris are the state militia who show up in a crisis with various levels of discipline, training, and sobriety.
But enough fluff! Let's homebrew a nice big transport to pack Frateris into like highly disposable sardines bent on martyrdom!
Unit Composition: 1 Cortege Transport Unit Type: Super-heavy vehicle
Wargear: Four heavy stubbers
Special Rules: Open-Topped Shield of Faith
Can't Shoot Out: Even though the vehicle is open-topped, the troop bay is so deep that passengers may not shoot out of the Cortege Transport.
Fire Points: None
Transport capacity: 50 models
Options: Replace any heavy stubbier with a heavy flamer: +5 points per weapon.
Design notes
Spoiler:
Based on the Imperial Guard Gorgon from Imperial Armour:Apocalypse, which costs 400 points. -3 AV for a vehicle 3 times normal size = -90 points Remove Amphibious: -10 points. The weapons load out is simply one of the free options for the Gorgon. Shield of Faith: Swapping 5++ on front only (Armoured Prow) for 6++ on all four sides (Shield of Faith) means you go from a 1/3 chance of a save on the area you'll be hit 50% of the time (scientific wild-ass guess here) to a 1/6 chance 100% of the time. I call that a wash. +/- 0 points.
I'd like to make this more ramshackle and awful, but I'm not sure how. I had an idea for a "Pack 'em in" rule whereby you could overload the transport with more than 50 passengers at the risk of them trampeling each other, but that seemed unduly complicated to implement. Ideas?
A black steel cathedral on massive treads, the Battle Chapel uplifts the spirits of the faithful and crushes the bodies of the unclean. From each of its three towers fires a Titan-sized exemplar of the Adepta Sororitas' "holy trinity": a Melta Cannon and an Inferno Gun in the two front towers, a Vulcan-Mega Bolter equipped to sweep the sky of enemy aircraft in the lofty central tower. Sixty Battle Sisters can fire out from its galleries, while its capacious nave can hold 60 more Sisters or two normal-sized tanks, ready to roar out when the sacramental assault ramp drops down between the two forward towards. Choirs of Progena sing sweet hymns of hatred that, vastly magnified, emanate from the Battle Chapel in all directions, while a vast cloud of black exhaust pours constantly from the massive engines in back, where the altar of an ordinary church would be.
BS:4 Armour:14/14/13 HP:27
Unit type: Super-heavy vehicle (Lord of War)
Wargear: Vulcan Mega-Bolter (main tower) Inferno Gun (left front tower) Melta Cannon (right front tower) Three Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters (one each left, right, and rear) Holy Light* Icons of Courage* Vox Dei*
Auspex Maximus: The Battle Chapel's highest tower bristles with arcane sacramental sensors that can detect enemies on an elaborate swiveling mount, the Adventus's Vulcan Mega-Bolter can engage enemy aircraft and ground troops alike. The Battle Chapel's Vulcan Mega-Bolter has the Interceptor and Skyfire special rules.
Choirs of Thunder: Songs of praise and pealing bells ring out from the Battle Chapel, clearly audible over the roar of battle. As long as they are within 12" of the Battle Chapel, any units from Codex:Adepta Sororitas and allied detachments that are Battle Brothers with the Sororitas gain the War Hymns special rule. However, they may only use the "The Emperor Protects" and "Righteousness of the Emperor" hymns. Any other units lack the faith in the divinity of the Emperor required to benefit from these rules.
Ponderous Beyond Belief: During its Movement phase, the Adventus Battle Chapel may either move 6" directly forward or pivot up to 45 degrees, but not both. The Chapel may never move in the Shooting phase.
Transport: Transport capacity: 120 models. The Battle Chapel may carry Bulky, Very Bulky, and Extremely Bulky models. In addition, it may carry one or two smaller vehicles (but not super-heavy vehicles!), which count as 30 models each; vehicles that are transports may carry models inside without taking up additional room in the Battle Chapel. Fire Points: 20 on each side, 10 front, and 10 rear. Access points: One at the front and one on each side.
Options: May add up to four pairs of side sponsons, each armed with one of the following: - Exorcist Missile Launcher: 65 points - Flamestorm Cannon and twin-linked heavy bolter: 50 points - Magna-Melta: 70 points
Design notes:
Spoiler:
Places where I've revised costing are in italics.
a) To start with, I kludged together three of Storm Queen tanks (Stormlord variants) that we costed up earlier: That's 3 Titan-scale weapons (remember they're all equal in cost, bizarrely), 3x40 = 120 passengers with half of them able to shoot out, and 3x9 = 27 Hull Points, for the cost of 3x550 = +1,650 points.
[EDITED: I removed the Stormlord's Heavy Stubbers from the Storm Queen and dropped point cost by -10 per tank accordingly]
a1) But none of the three Titan weapons has the Storm Lord/Queen's "All Power to Weapons!" rule, which we just paid for above and is worth at least -15 points per weapon: -45 points
b) A Storm Queen (i.e. a modified Stormlord) counts as open-topped for embarking and disembarking. Making this an Assault Vehicle with three access points seems almost[ equivalent, except that you lose the ability to dismount from any part of the vehicle. Let's say that was 10 points of the price of each of the Stormlords we're buying: -30 points.
c) But this thing's maneuverability is fething terrible: It's half as fast as a Baneblade and less than half as maneuverable, but let's just call that a 25% discount off the abovewhich Ovion argues is worth at most 50 points: --50 points.
d) Now those Baneblade-derived tanks are only Armour 14/13/12; to get 14/14/13, you need +3 AV (+1 to each side and +1 to the back). Ovion costs +1 AV as +10 points for a normal vehicle, but, measuring in HP, this thing is three times the size of a Blaneblade, which is three times the size of a regular tank, so it's 3x3x3x10 = +270 points.
e) The Vulcan Mega-Bolter gets the equivalent of much better than the Tau Velocity Tracker, but on a Titan-scale weapon I think that's worth a little more skyfire and interceptor. Normally 20 points for all the weapons on a regular/vehicle unit, so for a single Titan-scale weapon, say +30 points.
f) Choirs of Thunder = Kriegsminaret = 90 points (more than on the Storm Queen because it doesn't take away passenger capacity), +10 because you can't shoot it off like the Kriegsminaret = +100 points.
g) From the Rolling Chapel Equipment List, Holy Light = 25 points, Icons of Courage = 20 points, Vox Dei = 25 Points, total = +70 points
h) Sponson options are based on Ovion's cost for the Exorcist Missile launcher by itself and for Flamestorm +TLHB sponsons; then the Predator Infernus counts a Magna-Melta as a +30 upgrade from the Flamestorm Cannon, but I figured taking away the TLHB would be worth -10 points (sponsons seem to get their TLHBs at a discount....).
So with all the changes, the net difference is +270 points to the original costing Grand Total: 1,990 points but let's get real, this is imprecise, so let's round up to a tidy 2,000 points [i]exactly. [/i].
[EDIT: I couldn't resist restoring Interceptor to the Vulcan Mega-Bolter....]
Now that the Battle Chapel has swollen to 2,000 points (err, unless Ovion tells me I've screwed up the costing again, always possible), I think the Ecclesiarchy needs something a little lighter to fill the gap between the 2,000 point Chapel and the 750-point Penitent Titan, something roughly equivalent to the Reaver Titan -- and something much less devoted to troop transport than the Battle Chapel: a super-super-heavy tank designed to take on Titans FOR THE GOD-EMPEROR! and win.
So, instead of squashing three Storm Queens together as I did to make the Battle Chapel, I'm squashing a Flameblade and Sword of Light together to make the Saint Jehanne:
Saint Jehanne Ultra-Heavy Assault Tank: 1,140 points
Spoiler:
The arcane STC that serves as the basis for the Saint Jehanne is named for some ancient saint unmentioned except in the print-out's marginalia: a heroine revered for her crusades to defend humanity against Abominable Intelligence and the Men of Iron in the Age of Strife before even the Imperium. St. Jehanne struck the Ministorum as a worthy icon of fury, purity, and distrust of the machine. Indeed, the reason the Adepta Sororitas fields such a massive tank, rather than rely on the Titan Legions for firepower on this scale as other Imperial forces do, is that the Imperial Cult can never entirely trust the Machine Cult to have its back. The Jehanne is a super-superheavy tank twice the size of an Imperial Guard Baneblade and comparable to a Reaver Titan. It carries a Titan-scale Melta Cannon in its massive turret to take down other juggernauts and an Inferno Gun in its prow to scour the target area before the assault ramp drops and a picked force of foot troops charge out. Heavily armed, highly mobile, and adorned with icons of holy hate, the Jehanne is the offensive spearhead of the greatest Wars of Faith.
Transport capacity: 20 models Fire points: none. Access points: one front.
Options: May add up to two pairs of side sponsons, each armed with one of the following: - Exorcist Missile Launcher: 65 points - Flamestorm Cannon and twin-linked heavy bolter: 50 points - Magna-Melta: 70 points
I edited the Battle Chapel because couldn't resist restoring Interceptor to the Vulcan Mega-Bolter. My justification is that the highest tower of the Chapel bristles with "arcane sacramental sensors" that can see all sorts of enemies coming.
SisterSydney wrote: I edited the Battle Chapel because couldn't resist restoring Interceptor to the Vulcan Mega-Bolter. My justification is that the highest tower of the Chapel bristles with "arcane sacramental sensors" that can see all sorts of enemies coming.
Yes, I know you consider that OTT & OP. I consider it pure fething awesome. Bye-bye, Necron Croissants! Bye-bye, Vendetta Squadron! Bye-bye, Tyranid Harridan!
SisterSydney wrote: Yes, I know you consider that OTT & OP. I consider it pure fething awesome. Bye-bye, Necron Croissants! Bye-bye, Vendetta Squadron! Bye-bye, Tyranid Harridan!
Nah, just joking.
I just thought the weapon would turn too slowly to do hunt superfast flyers effectively.
Even the mighty Phantom Titan only has small secondary missile launchers for AA.
Maybe just stick 4 or so Quadguns on it and call it a day?
Slow pivot is a potential problem -- which is why I justified it as saying not only is there a special mount but the VMB is cued by long range sensors, so it's not actually just noticing your aircraft when it comes on the board, it's been tracking you miles out and started slewing to track before you ever left Reserves....
Automatically Appended Next Post: And remember this very much is a Not A Titan. It is slow, unmaneuverable, and utterly without melee attacks, with its strengths in firepower, durability, and, oh yeah, having 120 fething Battle Sisters or four Penitent Engines onboard. Lots of GW rules talk about this vehicle or that being a mobile fortress, but the Battle Chapel really is one, in ways both good and bad. Its tactical role is to plow ahead, escorted by ordinary-sized units -- remember foot troops can walk fast enough to keep up with this thing! -- and providing long-range firepower in return, until it reaches what is hopefully now a weak point in the enemy line and the great front doors swing open so your shock troops can pour out.
So that your mighty SoB can charge in with their 2 WS3 S3 I3 attacks per model? Lethal stuff. But what do I know, they might get 2D6 S10 AP1 attacks in melee due to AoF SUPERPOWERS or whatever, I don't have the codex.
And remember that this is less than half the price of a Phantom!
Standard Sisters will be attacking with the profile you describe, plus Preferred Enemy.
Repentia will be attacking at WS4, S6 AP2, 2d6 Armour Penetration with four attacks, a 6++ and a 3+ FnP. Admittedly, they will be striking at I1, but then... hmm. It needs something to make the victim of the charge I1.
Furyou Miko wrote: Standard Sisters will be attacking with the profile you describe, plus Preferred Enemy.
Repentia will be attacking at WS4, S6 AP2, 2d6 Armour Penetration with four attacks, a 6++ and a 3+ FnP. Admittedly, they will be striking at I1, but then... hmm. It needs something to make the victim of the charge I1.
...That gak had better be expensive.
A squad of 10 Khorne chosen with 5 flamers, a combiflamer and power mauls should do the trick. 6D3 S4 hits when you charge them, and then 4 S6 I4 attacks per model, cancelling out FNP.
Might as well put Kharn in there for more S6 goodness and rerolls to hit for the whole squad.
Come, Repentia, I've got your repentance for you right here...
Fething expensive squad, but hey, it's apocalypse.
On the other hand, an octa-Destroyer Reaver would do the job just as well, and maul their transport to boot.
Furyou Miko wrote: Standard Sisters will be attacking with the profile you describe, plus Preferred Enemy.
Repentia will be attacking at WS4, S6 AP2, 2d6 Armour Penetration with four attacks, a 6++ and a 3+ FnP. Admittedly, they will be striking at I1, but then... hmm. It needs something to make the victim of the charge I1.
...That gak had better be expensive.
A squad of 10 Khorne chosen with 5 flamers, a combiflamer and power mauls should do the trick. 6D3 S4 hits when you charge them, and then 4 S6 I4 attacks per model, cancelling out FNP.
Might as well put Kharn in there for more S6 goodness and rerolls to hit for the whole squad.
Come, Repentia, I've got your repentance for you right here...
Fething expensive squad, but hey, it's apocalypse.
On the other hand, an octa-Destroyer Reaver would do the job just as well, and maul their transport to boot.
Repentia are 14pts each, (with a Mistress required every 9), so each unit of 10 is 155, and 120 is 1820pts.
Also, if memory serves, smalle vehicles / walkers took up 15 transport cap each, so that would be up to 8 Penitent Engines. I would suggest making it that (Penitent take up 15 slots), and then you can have a mix of. Say 3-6 Penitent Engines, and 30-45 Repentia. Good times.
The St. Jehanne tank is, yes; the Churchtank is about 20% less: Jehanne Tanl: 1,440 Reaver Titan: 1,450 Battle Chapel: 2,000 Phantom: 2,500
...an octa-Destroyer Reaver would do the job just as well, and maul their transport to boot.....
Probably. (Do you mean octa- or quad? I thought you could carry one double-barreled destructor per arm = 4 barrels). The range advantage the Reaver has with that load-out vs. the Sisters' melta-cannon would be brutal just by itself, plus it has Void Shields and the Sororitas vehicles don't. I'm mostly going for fluffiness at this point and really don't know how well these would work tactically.
Furyou Miko wrote: Repentia will be attacking at WS4, S6 AP2, 2d6 Armour Penetration with four attacks, a 6++ and a 3+ FnP. Admittedly, they will be striking at I1, but then... hmm. It needs something to make the victim of the charge I1.
But to actually think tactically for a moment, yes, the first wave out of a Battle Chapel would be Repentia and Penitent Engines. Say two Penitent Engines (taking up space for 30 models), two squads of 10 Repentia +1 Priest +1 independent character (24 models), plus 60 Retributors (or whatever) to fire out of the 60 fire points, plus a Canoness with her Sororitas Command Squad (6 models). The PEs and Repentia sweep what's left of the enemy after the preliminary bombardment, the Retributors etc. come out second and secure the position.
The St. Jehanne just carries 20 infantry, it's a "by the way" capability like the transport capacity on many Baneblade variants, so I'd either do all Repentia or 10 Repentia w/ Priest & IC (12 models) plus Canoness w/ SCS & Priest (7 models) and, uh, one other person: say an Inquisitor, an Assassin, a Palatine or something else I homebrew later.....
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS: When I say "Priest" I really mean Chorister.
Reavers can take one Laser Blaster per arm and one twin Turbolaser on the back.
3+3+2=8
And I agree about tactics. Who gives a feth about that? I have a custom apocalypse High Command formation consisting of the Glacier Serpents leadership & bodyguard. 3000 points for a squad of 26 models that will be wiped in one turn by a Octa-Destroyer Reaver. But it's awesome and it's fun. Nobody with a shred of honour will attack that with D-weapons, they will use their own hardest Apocalypse melee deathstars and make an epic battle!
I enjoy making them and I enjoy the feedback even more -- all my homebrew threads have gotten consistently constructive (and occasionally hilarious) comments.
The Battle Chapel is just a terrible Titan killer: For 2,000 points you get one Destroyer weapon that doesn't even have great range by Titanic standards. But with the short-range firepower from Inferno gun, sponsons, and fire points, it should annihilate regular-sized units far more efficiently as it moves to its assault objective.
Moves slooooowly... four turns just to cross the 24" no-mans-land between deployment zones!
PS: My 4-year-old son, who is currently cuddling me half-naked in my home office chair, insists your avatar is a girl.....What.
Oh, you're right, Melta Cannon s S10. Ha! Not only is the Battle Chapel not a Titan killer, any Titan is a Battle Chapel Killer. And that makes the St. Jehanne pretty sad versus Titans too. Maybe I need to homebrow a giant Exorcist Missile Launcher that fires Destroyer missiles?
30 spaces per vehicle is what the IA:Apocalypse book says for the only vehicle in there that carries multiple vehicles, the Tau Manta mega-dropship.
SisterSydney wrote: Moves slooooowly... four turns just to cross the 24" no-mans-land between deployment zones!
Y'know, put like that, a 6" maximum move is pretty crippling. I think I'll cut the -50 point "Ponderous" disadvantage down to -20 or something and rewrite it as follows:
During its Movement phase, the Adventus Battle Chapel may either move up to 12" directly forward or pivot in place up to 90 degrees, but not both.
The Chapel may never move in the Shooting phase.
That gets you across no-man's-land in two turns instead of four and potentially across the entire table by the end of the game.
Agreed about the movement, but Tau vehicles take much more space than Imperial Rhino-sized vehicles do. Look at the models and tell me 20 doesn't make more sense!
TBH, it doesn't actually need a Titankiller weapon. To me it seems more like an 'anchor' for your advancing battleline. A big nasty foundation.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Also, I think you should change vehicle size to 20 models. They are not THAT big.
SisterSydney wrote:Oh, you're right, Melta Cannon s S10. Ha! Not only is the Battle Chapel not a Titan killer, any Titan is a Battle Chapel Killer. And that makes the St. Jehanne pretty sad versus Titans too. Maybe I need to homebrow a giant Exorcist Missile Launcher that fires Destroyer missiles?
30 spaces per vehicle is what the IA:Apocalypse book says for the only vehicle in there that carries multiple vehicles, the Tau Manta mega-dropship.
Large Vehicles, such as Tanks take up 30.
I remember it used to be (though for the life of me can't find it), that Large Vehicles / Tanks were 30, small vehicles (land speeders, pirahnas and such) and dreads, were 15.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: I insist 20 for anything smaller than a Land Raider, because, well, just look at the model size!
But whatever keeps your watercraft on the surface.
To Math it out a bit, and have a sensible, logical way of doing it: Floorspace wise, a LR is about equivalent to about 23 25mm bases. A Predator, roughly 16. A rhino, is equivalent to 11. A Land Speeder is about equivalent to 7-8. A Dreadnought, about 5.
If we attempt to account for any extra height, weight and bulk, and just double and round it, you get about 45 a Land Raider (or equiv large vehicle), 30 A Predator (or equiv standard vehicle), 20 a Rhino (or equiv mid vehicle), 15 a Land Speeder (or equiv small vehicle) and about 10 per dread (or equiv 60mm base).
Centurions (50mm base) are 3, Terminators (40mm base) are 2, and regular guys (25mm base) are 1, so I feel the above spaces for vehicles would be about accurate.
That's typically thorough and rigorous analysis on your part, Ovion. But I suspect GW is putting nowhere near as much thought into how large its various vehicles are relative to one another.
Hmm. Especially when you're putting vehicles in the nave of a mobile cathedral, where there's going to be headroom for anything short of a Titan.
And, on the topic of transports, I sorta wonder how my Chaos Termies can fit into Land Raiders with those big trophy racks...
The racks fold down, then spring back up at the press of a button? That'd be awesomely ungrimdark.
"Hey, Killripper, your rack of skulls is still down." "Oh, yeah, thanks, Murderblood!" SPROINGGGGG
Or someone with better art skills than me needs to draw a Chaos dude trying to get into a Land Raider and catching his trophy rack on the top of the door while all his buddies and a Daemon Prince laugh hysterically.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and here's a rule of thumb for transporting vehicles & monstrous creatures:
Walkers & Monstrous Creatures: 5 spaces per Hull Point or Wound
Other vehicles: 10 spaces per HP/Wound
But Walkers & MCs, being tall, don't fit in a lot of cargo bays that can accommodate regular, lower-riding vehicles.
Transporting Walkers and MCs is what the CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT is for. It can carry 30 IG soldiers or spend 5 slots each on carrying Cyclops Demolition vehicles, which are like small Rhinos (1.5 tons in-universe).
If you paint a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT black, gold and red, it turns into CHURCHTANK.
Moreso, though, it is a pre-existing vehicle that offers rules for transporting large quantities of people and vehicles, so works as a template for a SOB version. Though it is noted (ie, retconned) that the CRASSUS is a vehicle fielded in huge numbers in the Macharian Crusade, and remains fielded in large quantities.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Doubling for height is meaningless. Usually passengers are not in two layers, you know. Or are you proposing that they sit on each other's shoulders?
The bulk was already counted in via base size.
And I'll assume that the whole rolling chapel fortress is able to account for the extra weight.
And, on the topic of transports, I sorta wonder how my Chaos Termies can fit into Land Raiders with those big trophy racks...
By bulk and weight, I meant that each base has a dude on it, who doesn't take up 100% of the area above it, so when accounting for transport space, they can sit, or turn sideways, or whatever.
The doubling accounts for it being a solid block of mass, with no ability to 'squidge down'.
SisterSydney wrote: Oh, and here's a rule of thumb for transporting vehicles & monstrous creatures:
Walkers & Monstrous Creatures: 5 spaces per Hull Point or Wound
Other vehicles: 10 spaces per HP/Wound
But Walkers & MCs, being tall, don't fit in a lot of cargo bays that can accommodate regular, lower-riding vehicles.
My problem with this is, it means that:
Spoiler:
Imperial Rhinos, Chimeras, Vindicators, and Whirlwinds,
Sisters Exorcists and Immolators,
Dark Eldar Raiders and Ravagers,
Eldar Falcons, Fire Prisms, Night Spinners and Wave Serpents,
Necron Annihilation Barges and Command Barges,
Ork Looted Wagons and Trukks
and Tau Devilfish and Hammerheads,
are all 30 spaces.
Even though you could easily fit 2 of those in some of the others.
And that lots of the 2HP vehicles, that you could fit 2-3 of into one of the 3HP Vehicles is only 10HP less.
And I think part of the issue is that both Armour Value and HP Value only have a slight bearing on the size of the thing, making it hard to have a simple rules-based rule to determine it.
Good point about vehicle sizes correlating very poorly with HP.
Psienesis wrote: If you paint a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT black, gold and red, it turns into CHURCHTANK.
Moreso, though, it is a pre-existing vehicle that offers rules for transporting large quantities of people and vehicles, so works as a template for a SOB version. Though it is noted (ie, retconned) that the CRASSUS is a vehicle fielded in huge numbers in the Macharian Crusade, and remains fielded in large quantities.
Ooh, the Crassus rules are free online? Nice. Definitely should make a Sororitas version -- though I think you could just apply the 50-point "Sororitas Superheavy" upgrade and have done. For an infantry-focused elite like the Sisters, the Crassus is a much better for than the Gorgon.
But the Crassus is just way too small to be the basis for CHURCHTANK. That's why my design notes esentially start with "ok, imagine you have three Storm Lords and you bolt them together...."
SisterSydney wrote: Design notes: Some IG superheavies can replace their sponson lasguns -- worth about 40 points, if you go by the cost of Predator sponsons -- with targeters to gain +1 BS. In addition, Shield of Faith seems like it should be worth at least 40 points for such a massive vehicle: Destroyer weapons may ignore it, but the majority of things fired at a superheavy won't. So +80 points total.
Would just like to point this out: Escalation book has 1 pair of Sponsoons for 50Pts, Replace Lascanons with targeters for BS4 (Shadowsword) and Extra TL Heavy flamer/HBolter for 20Pts (do not have the book, might need to confirm). Hull-mounted TLHF or HB, so the sponsoons ones are slightly "better".
50 points - 20 points x 2 = 10 points for the two Lascannons / Targeters
So going by the cost of Shadowsword items in escalation, i'd price targeters at 10points (and very arguable if you have the book and show both those entries)
Now it does seem a bit cheap for 2 Lascanons/Targeters, but definitely points towards a cheaper cost that 40... to which i'd add: at 10Pts for standard HF,HB, Twin-linked ones would be 15? so 50 - 30 = 20 points for the BS4? i'd go with that once my Baneblade is finished, and say "i'll have it for 20, or do the maths above and get it for 10" OR if you think it's OP, let's just not play escalation xD
10-20 points for +1BS really does seem low. +10 pts for +1 BS on a regular vehicle, yes, that's an okay rule of thumb, but these things have three times as many hullpoints and much nastier main guns...
Just checked Escalation book: 10 points for the TLHF or HB.
This means 50-20: 30 points for the BS4. Pure maths from p45 of escalation and actually works well (i remembered it did).
Only the 5 points on the Rhino to compare SoF though, so any SoF cost is guesstimates =P
Just checked Escalation book: 10 points for the TLHF or HB.
This means 50-20: 30 points for the BS4. Pure maths from p45 of escalation and actually works well (i remembered it did).
Only the 5 points on the Rhino to compare SoF though, so any SoF cost is guesstimates =P
How we were doing it, is the +1BS is somehow rated as equal the 2 lascannons on the sponson.
Something normally +10, is now worth around +40.
The SoF, normally a +5, is who knows what on this.
So call it equivalent to buying the sponsons with targeters, and call it a day.
The flamer baneblade was cool...
but i like the biggest war machines stomping and spraying gore throughout the field of battle...so i think that penitent titan should have lots of scythes and stubbers so it could bodyslam another titan amidst a well of spraying gore-wait, i thought of a psychic titan just now...
)
