Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

That makes the Warhound a totally appropriate basis for a "light superheavy" that hurls itself into battle on a suicide run in the hope of killing as many enemies as it can before it goes out in a blaze of hate and glory -- which is pretty much what the original Penitent Engine does. I'm not sure if this thing makes any sense tactically (as opposed to fluffwise) except as a big screaming DISTRACTION CARNIFEX to freak out the enemy and draw their fire while the rest of your army quietly wins the battle.

"No, Mr. Titan, I expect you to die."

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
The Warhound is designed for scouting, but it is most certainly a combat vehicle. It would not have void shields and massive guns otherwise.

I was referring to combat in the sense of melee combat, not 'combat' in the sense of open warfare.

I don't think a single Ws4 S10 attack really justifies the 800 points it costs, nor the idea of a giant mechanized monstrosity tearing through enemy lines. I mean, even the standard penitent engine has more attacks, and the titan is essentially a pentitent engine plus. I think it really needs a pair of oversized eviscerators or something.

Aha, now I get it. GW's use of "combat" to mean "close combat" is deeply confusing.

And your point about this having only one attack (two on the charge with Rage) is well made: I was mentally counting on the enemy shooting it up just before it assaulted so "That Which Kills Makes Us Stronger" could buff its Attacks statistic -- but of course the enemy might not be that cooperative.

What do people think would be good base Attack and Initiative values?

For comparison: Khorne Lord of Skulls (ridiculous name) has I:3 A:4, +1A for every wound it takes ever (the bonus doesn't go away after one use as it does with the draft Penetitan). Ork Stompa has I:1 A:4; Revenant Titan has I:2 A:1; Imperial Titans have I:1 A:1; and the normal-sized Penitent Engine has I:3 A:3 +1 on the charge for Rage.

So maybe I:2 A:2, +1 on the charge for Rage, +1 per wound taken for the Penitent Titan, with the wound bonuses not going away?

Rage would give it three on the charge. Strength D is still nasty.

Fluffwise, a Warhound would be lethal in combat to anything less than other titans since it can just step on things.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Rage would give it three on the charge. Strength D is still nasty.

The way it's currently written it does not have strength D. The titan has a Titan Close Combat Weapon, not a Titan Powerfist.
How about giving it a titan-eviscerator which counts as a titan cc weapon with armourbane instead?

Oh, right, stomping on things! That reminds me:

Options:
The Penitent Titan may take either of the following (but not both):

Chainscythe anklets: ?? Points
Giant chainblades jury-rigged to the Titan's mechanical ankles whir to bloody life as it crushes the heretic underfoot.
A Penitent Titan with chainscythe anklets uses the Large Blast template for Stomp attacks.

Repentia Racks: 30 points
Handrails and footholds crudely welded onto the Titan's leg armor let it carry fanatically fearless passengers into battle.
The Titan counts as an open-topped transport for 20 infantry models. However, each model must have the Fearless special rule or the And They Shall Know No Fear special rule. (Models that do not have the rule themselves but which gain it from an independent character joining their unit may not ride). In addition, every time an enemy shooting or melee attack hits the Titan with a to-hit roll of 6, one of the units riding the Titan takes a hit with same Strength, AP, and special rules.

Design notes: 2 points per passenger = 40, -25% for the restrictions and chance of being killed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Michael wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Rage would give it three on the charge. Strength D is still nasty.

The way it's currently written it does not have strength D. The titan has a Titan Close Combat Weapon, not a Titan Powerfist.
How about giving it a titan-eviscerator which counts as a titan cc weapon with armourbane instead?

I'd meant to give a Destroyer melee weapon, actually -- just sloppy terminology on my part.

But a Titanic Eviscerator sounds rather lovely. Destroyer and Armourbane, maybe?

Ok thats pretty awesome

Still sad GK's arent Inquisition Buddies (Battle Brothers) with the Sisters though.

I like the racks/anklets option. Sounds cool both fluffwise and gamewise.

Strength D armourbane is somewhat overpowered. With three attacks it means you have two hits, with a 30/36th (so 5/6th) chance of scoring a penetrating hit against AV 14 each. That means that it will undoubtedly crush any non-sh vecicle in close combat, and has a 10/6th*1/6th = 10/36th chance of inflicting D6+6 hull point damage on the charge against superheavies. The math may be a bit off because it's late and I'm tired, but still.

Also, a lot of people hate strength D, so I'd personally go for strength 10 armourbane. Since it's custom-made, it's likely people won't accept its use if it has a destroyer weapon.

And because I like throwing random fluffy ideas around: what if the squad holding onto the racks would have to take a toughness/initiative test (whichever is higher) or lose D3 models with no saves allowed due to models losing grip and falling off the racks?

Brother Michael wrote:
I like the racks/anklets option. Sounds cool both fluffwise and gamewise.

Strength D armourbane is somewhat overpowered. With three attacks it means you have two hits, with a 30/36th (so 5/6th) chance of scoring a penetrating hit against AV 14 each. That means that it will undoubtedly crush any non-sh vecicle in close combat, and has a 10/6th*1/6th = 10/36th chance of inflicting D6+6 hull point damage on the charge against superheavies. The math may be a bit off because it's late and I'm tired, but still.

Also, a lot of people hate strength D, so I'd personally go for strength 10 armourbane. Since it's custom-made, it's likely people won't accept its use if it has a destroyer weapon.

And because I like throwing random fluffy ideas around: what if the squad holding onto the racks would have to take a toughness/initiative test (whichever is higher) or lose D3 models with no saves allowed due to models losing grip and falling off the racks?

Armourbane does exactly othing for StrD.

StrD auto pens vehicles on a roll of a 1, ad autoexplodes them on a roll of 2-5.

Which is why I gave my one Chainfists.
Though Eviscerators were a definate maybe too.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Oh, right, stomping on things! That reminds me:

Options:
The Penitent Titan may take either of the following (but not both):

Chainscythe anklets: ?? Points
Giant chainblades jury-rigged to the Titan's mechanical ankles whir to bloody life as it crushes the heretic underfoot.
A Penitent Titan with chainscythe anklets uses the Large Blast template for Stomp attacks.

Repentia Racks: 30 points
Handrails and footholds crudely welded onto the Titan's leg armor let it carry fanatically fearless passengers into battle.
The Titan counts as an open-topped transport for 20 infantry models. However, each model must have the Fearless special rule or the And They Shall Know No Fear special rule. (Models that do not have the rule themselves but which gain it from an independent character joining their unit may not ride). In addition, every time an enemy shooting or melee attack hits the Titan with a to-hit roll of 6, one of the units riding the Titan takes a hit with same Strength, AP, and special rules.

Design notes: 2 points per passenger = 40, -25% for the restrictions and chance of being killed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Michael wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Rage would give it three on the charge. Strength D is still nasty.

The way it's currently written it does not have strength D. The titan has a Titan Close Combat Weapon, not a Titan Powerfist.
How about giving it a titan-eviscerator which counts as a titan cc weapon with armourbane instead?

I'd meant to give a Destroyer melee weapon, actually -- just sloppy terminology on my part.

But a Titanic Eviscerator sounds rather lovely. Destroyer and Armourbane, maybe?

I am not sure, Stomp attacks can oneshot anything non-Superheavy or Gargantuan, so it is a pretty big upgrade to make them large blast.

What does it cost for a Transcendent? Like 120-150 points?

And yes, armourbane is redundant for a Destroyer weapon since it wipes the floor so bad with vehicles anyway so armourbane literally makes no difference whatsoever.

Have't actually looked at costing it up.
Seismic Shockwave, that upgrades the Stomp to Large Blast is 60pts.

And it's not that Armourbane makes no difference, it literally does nothing due to StrD technically not being a Strength value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SisterSydney wrote:Also, I wrote up my rough idea of a Penitent Titan:

Spoiler:

Penitent Titan: 800 points
In some corners of the Imperium that are even darker than the rest, worship takes on gruesome forms. There are worlds where the devout build mighty effigies of the God-Emperor and fill them with heretics and criminals -- or with the innocent -- before setting the whole thing on fire. The Penitent Titan is the same cruel concept made into a war machine: A jury-rigged Warhound scout Titan with condemned sinners not only wired immovably in every crew station but bound screaming to the outside of the armour. Cables crudely plugged into the skulls of the condemned ensure they experience not only their own torment but one another's, and each time one dies it sends the survivors into new ecstasies of self-annihilation.

WS:4 BS:2 S:10 Armour:14/13/12 I:2 A:1 HP:9

Wargear:
Titan Close Combat Weapon (right arm)
Inferno Gun (left arm)
1 Void Shield

Special Rules:
Agile
Rage
Shield of Faith
Void Shields (1)

That Which Kills Us Makes Us Stronger
Every time the Penitent Titan loses a Hull Point, the controlling player may choose one of the following bonuses:
- The Titan moves an additional 2" in the next Shooting Phase if it Runs.
- The Titan gains +1 Attack and +1 Initiative in the next Assault Phase if it is in close combat.
If the Titan lose multiple Hull Points at once, it gains one bonus for each HP.
These bonuses are temporary: If the Titan does not Run in its next Shooting Phase, it loses all moving bonuses; if it does not fight in the next Assault Phase, it loses all bonuses to A and I. Subsequent HP losses will, of course, give the Titan new bonuses.

Design Notes: Trying to keep it simple, so it's basically a Warhound that trades one of its two Void Shields for Rage, Shield of Faith (6++), and That Which Kills Us Makes Us Stronger. I think this is a serious net gain, whose value I'd guestimate as +80 points.

Comments? How do we improve (a) costing and (b) the rules themselves?

SisterSydney wrote:Oh, right, stomping on things! That reminds me:

Spoiler:

Options:
The Penitent Titan may take either of the following (but not both):

Chainscythe anklets: ?? Points
Giant chainblades jury-rigged to the Titan's mechanical ankles whir to bloody life as it crushes the heretic underfoot.
A Penitent Titan with chainscythe anklets uses the Large Blast template for Stomp attacks.

Repentia Racks: 30 points
Handrails and footholds crudely welded onto the Titan's leg armor let it carry fanatically fearless passengers into battle.
The Titan counts as an open-topped transport for 20 infantry models. However, each model must have the Fearless special rule or the And They Shall Know No Fear special rule. (Models that do not have the rule themselves but which gain it from an independent character joining their unit may not ride). In addition, every time an enemy shooting or melee attack hits the Titan with a to-hit roll of 6, one of the units riding the Titan takes a hit with same Strength, AP, and special rules.

Design notes: 2 points per passenger = 40, -25% for the restrictions and chance of being killed.

I don't think 20 will reasonably fit on just the legs.
10-15 maybe.
Remember that Open Topped is worth 10pts.
I figure at 10, with Open-Topped and the drawbacks it'd be roughly 25-30pts.

The Stomp boost would be 60pts.

Ovion, thanks, that's helpful. So what would you say is the total cost of the base Titan (without options) if we put all the ideas together into a revised version?

Everyone who's not Ovion should obviously chime in as well, there's lots to talk about besides point costs.

Penitent Titan: 850 points

Revised fluff:


WS:4 BS:2 S:10 Armour:14/13/12 I:2 A:2 HP:9

A Penitent Titan is a Lord of War choice for a Codex:Adepta Sororitas army.

Unit Type: Super-heavy Walker
Unit Composition: 1 Penitent Titan

Wargear:
Titanic Eviscerator: Range 0" S:10 AP:1 Armourbane, Melee
Must choose one of the following arm weapons, at no additional points cost:
- Inferno Gun
- Vulcan Mega-Bolter
- Melta Cannon
- a second Titanic Eviscerator

Special Rules:
Agile
Fleet
Rage
Shield of Faith
Void Shields (1)

That Which Kills Us Makes Us Stronger
Every time the Penitent Titan loses a Hull Point, the controlling player may choose one of the following bonuses, but you may not choose the same bonus twice in a row:
- The Titan moves an additional 2" whenever it Runs during the Shooting phase, to a maximum of 12".
- The Titan gains +1 Attack, to a maximum of 10.
- The Titan gains +2 Initiative, to a maximum of 10.
and +1 Initiative in the next Assault Phase if it is in close combat.
If the Titan loses multiple Hull Points at once, it gains one bonus for each HP.
The Penitent Titan can never regain lost HP from Repair rolls or for any other reason.

Options:

Chainscythe anklets: 60 Points
Giant chainblades jury-rigged to the Titan's mechanical ankles whir to bloody life as it crushes the heretic underfoot.
A Penitent Titan with chainscythe anklets uses the Large Blast template for Stomp attacks.

Repentia Racks: 30 points
Handrails and footholds crudely welded onto the Titan's leg armor let it carry fanatically fearless passengers into battle.
The Titan counts as an open-topped transport for 12 infantry models. However, each model must have the Fearless special rule or the And They Shall Know No Fear special rule. (Models that do not have the rule themselves but which gain it from an independent character joining their unit may not ride).
In addition, every time an enemy shooting or melee attack hits the Titan with a to-hit roll of 6, one of the units riding the Titan takes a hit with same Strength, AP, and special rules.

Design notes -- changes from original version:


Is this closer to the grimdark atrocity that we all want?

My main problem with the new fluff, is that something the Mechanicum sees as abominations agianst the machine god, and that uses stolen titans (that are most holy), and are worked on by rogued tech priests, are going to have a mechanicum fleet and likely a Titan Legion knocking at its door.

^ That. Titans are some serious business for the Admech.

It's comparable to if the Admech kidnapped a Living Saint and turned the protesting Saint into a servitor.

As you can imagine, certain people would be very unhappy about that.

You really should balance the weapons. The Melta Cannon is a Reaver weapon while the other ranged weapons are Warhound weapons. The Cannon is far superior.

Also, front armour 14 for such a jury-rigged thing seems OTT. 13, like a Stompa, at most I'd say.

Replace Melta Cannon with a smaller equivalent. Nerf front armour, redesign fluff, reduce pts cost appropriately. That should do the trick.

The name 'GIANT PENITENT ENGINE' .. I almost misread.

 Shandara wrote:
The name 'GIANT PENITENT ENGINE' .. I almost misread.

You see what you want to see.

Yes, I'm not running an enlargement spam thread. (Though we could homebrew something...).

And I'll tone down the fluff, y'all's objections made sense. How about

"The Adeptus Mechanicus is deeply divided about the Penitent Titan. Most Forgeworlds disdain it as a prime example of Ecclesiarchical excess and barbarism. Some consider it an outright abomination against the Machine God (wars have been fought over such things). A few Forge Worlds, however, see Penitence as a fitting end for Titans whose core systems are damaged or decaying beyond all repair. It is this part of the Mechanicum that sends teams of Tech-Priests to oversee the restoration of crippled Warhounds recovered from old battlefields or ancient ruins, though most of the crude repairs and modifications are performed by Ministorum artisans with more fervor than skill. The resulting jury-rigged monstrosity rattles with mechanical failures and human pain, its reactor soon to give out -- but no matter: Its masters need neither machine nor crew to long survive.

Better?

I like it

I'm really tempted to give it a Destroyer melee weapon rather than S:10 Armourbane, whose max impact is one penetrating hit per attack. I know many people dislike Destroyer weapons -- I consider the rule an inelegant kludge myself -- but if anything in the game should routinely one-shot tanks and stagger superheavies with D3+1 HP damage, it's a space chainsaw the size of a city bus....

 SisterSydney wrote:
I'm really tempted to give it a Destroyer melee weapon rather than S:10 Armourbane, whose max impact is one penetrating hit per attack. I know many people dislike Destroyer weapons -- I consider the rule an inelegant kludge myself -- but if anything in the game should routinely one-shot tanks and stagger superheavies with D3+1 HP damage, it's a space chainsaw the size of a city bus....

How about allowing it to take a titan power fist as arm weapon (so instead of one of the guns) for extra points?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Ok thats pretty awesome

Still sad GK's arent Inquisition Buddies (Battle Brothers) with the Sisters though.

They are dirty, dirty psykers.

Overall... not real sure I am into everything on the battlefield being this blinged-out Ecclesiarchal work of war-art... except the super-heavy, which is a gangly beast of flesh and metal that looks like it was built by a team of Orks and Skaven rather than human beings.

Though, I'm also not a fan of the SOB super-heavy being a Living Saint, but bigger. Though making it a "disposable Titan" makes some sense... it just seems to me that it would take a large number of apostate Tech-Priests (yes, they do exist) to make such a thing happen.... and I'm not sure that the psykers/heretics strapped to it would need to be anything more than passengers. Let the War-Spirit of the Titan do its thing for as long as it will last. Maybe there's one of those anime-esque evil essence-stealing devices that look like some high-tech restraint thing with tubes attaching to people's heads and all, and it is this device that drains the psychicness out of the prisoners to power the War-Spirit (or something along those lines).

Perhaps this thing should have only anti-infantry ranged weapons (bolters and flamers) and its melee attacks primarily used for wrecking vehicles, enemy titans, and other super-heavies? Like a Warhound with two huge chainsaw blades for arms, or a Titan powerfist and a chainsaw arm? Plus, of course, its stomps and its various hull-mounted weapons.

Oh, there should also be, like, a 10" pie-plate or something for if/when it explodes while in combat with another unit. Titans die in impressive ways.

Brother Michael wrote:How about allowing it to take a titan power fist as arm weapon (so instead of one of the guns) for extra points?

Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying -- the current draft of the rules give it one Titanic Eviscerator and one arm gun (or you can take a second Eviscerator.... but not two guns). Since all Titan Destroyer melee weapons have the same stats, it doesn't really matter whether we call it a power fist, eviscerator, or Khleaver of Khorne.....

Psienesis wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Ok thats pretty awesome

Still sad GK's arent Inquisition Buddies (Battle Brothers) with the Sisters though.

They are dirty, dirty psykers.

We had a whole discussion on Sisters' attitudes towards the GK at one point. Final verdict was that they might not even notice what the GK were doing amidst the chaos of battle -- it's not like Grey Knights shoot laser beams out of their eyes, after all, they just kind of look at you funny and your testicles explode or whatever:

BATTLE SISTER #1: Did that Marine just....
SISTER SUPERIOR: Eyes on target!
BATTLE SISTER #1: But his eyes, they...
SISTER SUPERIOR: Stop watching the Astartes!
BATTLE SISTER #2 (sing-song): Alicia has a crush!
BATTLE SISTER #1: I do not!
SISTER SUPERIOR: Would everybody just SHUT UP AND SHOOT THINGS!

Although Daemonhosts might be a bit harder to ignore:

SISTER: So those guys are all psykers?
INQUISITOR: The good kind! Totally sanctioned and everything!
SISTER: That one's, uh, foaming at the mouth.
INQUISITOR: Overflowing with love for the God-Emperor!
SISTER: And levitating.
INQUISITOR: It's a miracle!
SISTER: And spewing obscenities about how our corpse-god cannot save our pitiful human souls from the all-consuming hunger of the Warp.
INQUISITOR: Ah, yes. Um.
SISTER: [checks pilot light of heavy flamer is on]
INQUISITOR: It's opposites day! It's opposites day on his planet so he's really talking about how the immortal Emperor Protects! Ha! Ha!
SISTER: You're not one of those radical Inquisitors, are you?
INQUISITOR: Oh my look at the time I have to go ktxbai.

Psienesis wrote:Overall... not real sure I am into everything on the battlefield being this blinged-out Ecclesiarchal work of war-art... except the super-heavy, which is a gangly beast of flesh and metal that looks like it was built by a team of Orks and Skaven rather than human beings. ....

1) Bling is a thing the Mininstorum is big into. If you wanna play relatively level-headed Sisters, just don't buy the crazier vehicle options....

2) It took a while for me to figure out the Ecclesiarchy, but I came to realize its non-Sisters forces like the Frateris are pretty much Skaven in human form: superstitious, ignorant, and available in economy size disposable packages....

Shame I missed the GK-SoB discussion.

At a side note, I wonder if, when GK are forced to intervene visually, they mindwipe the Sisters afterwards like they do with Astartes or if they execute them like they do with Guardsmen?

The former seems more likely, but I can't be sure and I don't think I have read anything on it yet. Anyone?

And an upgrade for a D weapon is fine. Maybe put some kind of restriction against smaller targets since it'd be difficult to reach them down there?

It's a variant of the Warhound, and I don't think those have the "can't reach mah feets" problem the larger Titans have. I think bopping a tank on the turret would be perfectly feasible. Or you could overkill the hell out of one infantry model, I suppose.

Initial concept art for my Penintentiarius Titan.

Not entirely sure how much I like it... will have to do up more later, but would like reviews on this quick sketch anyway.

It's a lighter, Penitent Enginey Warhound-ish sized affair, maybe a bit smaller.

Cool. Needs more condemned heretics strapped to the outside with barbed wire, tho.

Has 9.
9 Heretics for this one.
1 Heretic for each HP.

Haha thanks for the link

I like the idea of a barely together Titan running on faith and grease tromping across a battlefield till it shuts down.

Okay, I think this is the final version -- except oh boy do I need Ovion to check costing.

It has the new new fluff, no option for a Melta Cannon, and the Titanic Eviscerator upgraded to a Destroyer weapon, because feth restraint. I think that hits everything we've discussed, right?

EDITED (twice...) to include Ovion's costing and to fix errors. This is the finally final GIANT PENITENT ENGINE!


Penitent Titan: 775 points

Revised fluff:


WS:4 BS:2 S:10 Armour:14/13/12 I:2 A:2 HP:9

A Penitent Titan is a Lord of War choice for a Codex:Adepta Sororitas army.

Unit Type: Super-heavy Walker
Unit Composition: 1 Penitent Titan

Wargear:
Titanic Eviscerator: Range 0" S: D AP:1 Melee
Must choose one of the following arm weapons, at no additional points cost:
- Inferno Gun
- Vulcan Mega-Bolter
- a second Titanic Eviscerator

Special Rules:
Agile
Fleet
Rage
Shield of Faith
Void Shields (1)

That Which Kills Us Makes Us Stronger
Every time the Penitent Titan loses a Hull Point, the controlling player may choose one of the following bonuses, but you may not choose the same bonus twice in a row:
- The Titan moves an additional 2" whenever it Runs during the Shooting phase, to a maximum of 12".
- The Titan gains +1 Attack, to a maximum of 10.
- The Titan gains +1 Initiative, to a maximum of 10.
If the Titan loses multiple Hull Points at once, it gains one bonus for each HP.
The Penitent Titan can never regain lost HP from Repair rolls or for any other reason.


Options:

The Penitent Titan may take either of the following leg upgrades, but not both:

Chainscythe Anklets: 60 Points
Giant chainblades jury-rigged to the Titan's mechanical ankles whir to bloody life as it crushes the heretic underfoot.
A Penitent Titan with chainscythe anklets uses the Large Blast template for Stomp attacks.

Repentia Racks: 30 points
Handrails and footholds crudely welded onto the Titan's leg armor let it carry fanatically fearless passengers into battle.
The Titan counts as an open-topped transport for 12 infantry models. However, each model must have the Fearless special rule or the And They Shall Know No Fear special rule. (Models that do not have the rule themselves but which gain it from an independent character joining their unit may not ride).
In addition, every time an enemy shooting or melee attack hits the Titan with a to-hit roll of 6, one of the units riding the Titan takes a hit with same Strength, AP, and special rules.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I like the idea of a barely together Titan running on faith and grease tromping across a battlefield till it shuts down.

Yes, that's basically it. Except less "tromping" and more "staggering drunkenly at terrific speed in a fiery zigzag towards the enemy lines carrying a chainsaw the size of a city bus."

Because of course in a SoB army even the vehicles have so much faith in the emperor that they won't collapse

Looks very nice!