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 SisterSydney wrote:
Okay, I think this is the final version -- except oh boy do I need Ovion to check costing.

It has the new new fluff, no option for a Melta Cannon, and the Titanic Eviscerator upgraded to a Destroyer weapon, because feth restraint. I think that hits everything we've discussed, right?

Penitent Titan: 850 points

Revised fluff:

Spoiler:

In some corners of the Imperium that are even darker than the rest, worship takes on gruesome forms. There are worlds where the devout build mighty effigies of the God-Emperor and fill them with heretics and criminals -- or with the innocent -- before setting the whole thing on fire.
The Penitent Titan is the same cruel concept made into a war machine: A converted Warhound Scout Titan with condemned sinners not only wired immovably in every crew station but bound screaming to the outside of the armour. Cables crudely plugged into the skulls of the condemned ensure they experience not only their own torment but one another's, and each time one dies it sends the survivors into new ecstasies of self-annihilation. At the helm, where a Princeps of the Legio Titanicus would normally stand, there is always a disgraced Imperial servant of high degree, some cardinal, field marshal, or great noble whose rank demands greater agonies than those inflicted by a plebian Penitent Engine, and into this damned commander's brain pour all the agonies of his captive crew.
The Adeptus Mechanicus is deeply divided about the Penitent Titan. Most Forgeworlds disdain it as a prime example of Ecclesiarchical excess and barbarism. Some consider it an outright abomination against the Machine God (wars have been fought over such things). A few Forge Worlds, however, see Penitence as a fitting end for Titans whose core systems are damaged or decaying beyond all repair. It is this part of the Mechanicum that sends teams of Tech-Priests to oversee the restoration of crippled Warhounds recovered from old battlefields or ancient ruins, though most of the crude repairs and modifications are performed by Ministorum artisans with more fervor than skill. The resulting jury-rigged monstrosity rattles with mechanical failures and human pain, its reactor soon to give out -- but no matter: Its masters need neither machine nor crew to long survive.

Spoiler:

WS:4 BS:2 S:10 Armour:14/13/12 I:2 A:2 HP:9

A Penitent Titan is a Lord of War choice for a [i]Codex:Adepta Sororitas army.

Unit Type: Super-heavy Walker
Unit Composition: 1 Penitent Titan

Wargear:
Titanic Eviscerator: Range 0" S: D AP:1 Melee
Must choose one of the following arm weapons, at no additional points cost:
- Inferno Gun
- Vulcan Mega-Bolter
- a second Titanic Eviscerator

Special Rules:
Agile
Fleet
Rage
Shield of Faith
Void Shields (1)

That Which Kills Us Makes Us Stronger
Every time the Penitent Titan loses a Hull Point, the controlling player may choose one of the following bonuses, but you may not choose the same bonus twice in a row:
- The Titan moves an additional 2" whenever it Runs during the Shooting phase, to a maximum of 12".
- The Titan gains +1 Attack, to a maximum of 10.
- The Titan gains +2 Initiative, to a maximum of 10.
and +1 Initiative in the next Assault Phase if it is in close combat.
If the Titan loses multiple Hull Points at once, it gains one bonus for each HP.
The Penitent Titan can never regain lost HP from Repair rolls or for any other reason.


Options:

Chainscythe Anklets: 60 Points
Giant chainblades jury-rigged to the Titan's mechanical ankles whir to bloody life as it crushes the heretic underfoot.
A Penitent Titan with chainscythe anklets uses the Large Blast template for Stomp attacks.

Repentia Racks: 30 points
Handrails and footholds crudely welded onto the Titan's leg armor let it carry fanatically fearless passengers into battle.
The Titan counts as an open-topped transport for 12 infantry models. However, each model must have the Fearless special rule or the And They Shall Know No Fear special rule. (Models that do not have the rule themselves but which gain it from an independent character joining their unit may not ride).
In addition, every time an enemy shooting or melee attack hits the Titan with a to-hit roll of 6, one of the units riding the Titan takes a hit with same Strength, AP, and special rules.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I like the idea of a barely together Titan running on faith and grease tromping across a battlefield till it shuts down.

Yes, that's basically it. Except less "tromping" and more "staggering drunkenly at terrific speed in a fiery zigzag towards the enemy lines carrying a chainsaw the size of a city bus."

Ah nuts.
See, what I'd done before, is cost up the previous version of your Penitent Titan... aaaand then completely forgotten to actually put it in the post where I costed the anklets and racks.

Was still sat in Notepad on my laptop in the kitchen.
Original costing:
Warhound 720
+1I +10
-1 Void Shield -25
+Rage +10
+Shield of Faith +10
+TWKUMUS +15
Total: 740

New version:
You need to put back the 'may only choose one' for the options.
Having both is crazy, as having people hanging off the legs, that then need to drop through the blades to get off is a bad plan.
The switch from temporary to permament increases for That Which Kills Us increases its costs significantly, a little tricky to actually price.
New costing:
Warhound 720
+1I +10
+1A +10
-1 Void Shield -25
+Rage +10
+Shield of Faith +10
+TWKUMUS (+2" run +10, +1A +10, +2I +20, +1I-conditional +5, never repair -10) +35
Total: 770

I think that's about reasonable.

Thanks! Three things:

1) Good catch on the leg options -- will edit to fix.

2! Are +1A, Rage, etc. really only worth 10 apiece for a unit this massive, though? Surely that should scale up with how brutal the +1A you get actually is -- maybe not from one infantry model to another, but surely for a Destroyer weapon.

3) Also, in your costing of TWKUMUS, why does the bonuses being "conditional" make them worth more instead of less? Surely having to take a wound to get your +1A or whatever is a disadvantage?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: I also edited the TWKUMUS bonus for Initiative down from +2I per wound taken to +1I. Looking over Ovion's costing made me realize I is as valuable as A because if your low I lets the enemy kill you before you strike, your Attacks value is effectively zero....

 SisterSydney wrote:
Thanks! Three things:

1) Good catch on the leg options -- will edit to fix.

2! Are +1A, Rage, etc. really only worth 10 apiece for a unit this massive, though? Surely that should scale up with how brutal the +1A you get actually is -- maybe not from one infantry model to another, but surely for a Destroyer weapon.

3) Also, in your costing of TWKUMUS, why does the bonuses being "conditional" make them worth more instead of less? Surely having to take a wound to get your +1A or whatever is a disadvantage?

Yes, I do, as there is no precedent for that specific option, I revert to the standard costing.
Strength of the Weapon is built into the weapon, and has already been paid for.
The additional attacks are seperate.

3: The way it reads, whatever options you choose you get +1 I in the next assault phase.
That's the conditional part.

The rest is permament boosts, so whenever it loses a HP (normally a reasonable negative), it gains a positive. Potential +120pts in stats from that (+8I and +4A), with a temporary extra +8I along the way. +35 is probably reasonable for that.

Edit: with a reduction of -1I per boost, drop the cost by 10pts to 760.

Ah, I miswrote that, then. It should NOT get +1 per wound in next assault phase in addition to the other "choose one of three" bonuses. Will fix!

Lol, I'd that would reduce it by 5pts, but at this level that looks wierd, so I'd keep it at 760pts.

760 it is! The final version is here, edited into the post earlier rather than reprinting the whole thing.

I was tempted to bump it up to 775 just for round numbers (or 777, but that seemed, um, blasphemous), but 760 has a certain "we really calculated this precisely, see?"

[EDITED: Ok, bumped it up to 775 after all.]

HERETIC #1: Hey, was that church there before?
HERETIC #2: It's moving.
HERETIC #3: It's a tank!
HERETIC #1: It's a church!
HERETIC #2: It's madness!
CONFESSOR ON FRONT TOWER: Madness? This. Is. CHURCHTANK!

Imagine this. On tracks. With guns. The two smaller towers are the front.

[EDIT: Revised rules and significantly revised costing are here]

Adventus Battle Chapel: 1,730 points
A black steel cathedral on massive treads, the Battle Chapel uplifts the spirits of the faithful and crushes the bodies of the unclean. From each of its three towers fires a Titan-sized exemplar of the Adepta Sororitas' "holy trinity": a Melta Cannon and an Inferno Gun in the two front towers, a Vulcan-Mega Bolter equipped to sweep the sky of enemy aircraft in the lofty central tower. Sixty Battle Sisters can fire out from its galleries, while its capacious nave can hold 60 more Sisters or two normal-sized tanks, ready to roar out when the sacramental assault ramp drops down between the two forward towards. Choirs of Progena sing sweet hymns of hatred that, vastly magnified, emanate from the Battle Chapel in all directions, while a vast cloud of black exhaust pours constantly from the massive engines in back, where the altar of an ordinary church would be.

BS:4 Armour:14/14/13 HP:27

Unit type: Super-heavy vehicle (Lord of War)

Wargear:
Vulcan Mega-Bolter (main tower)
Inferno Gun (left front tower)
Melta Cannon (right front tower)

Holy Light:
As the massive war machine crashes into the enemy lines, its gilded armour gleaming and its sacramental spotlights blazing, the eyes of the evildoers are dazzled by a pure white light and their ears fill with celestial music. Then the faithful charge out of the vehicle and rip them apart.
When a unit charges out of a transport with Holy Light, it counts as having assault grenades and inflicts a Blind attack on all enemies it is charging, resolved at Initiative 10.

Icon of Courage
Looming literally larger than life, these holy images of Imperial saints past look sternly down on today's combatants and forbid them to waver for an instant.
Friendly units within 12" of a vehicle with Icons of Courage re-roll failed Morale, Fear, and Pinning tests.

Vox Dei
A soul-stirring, ear-splitting array of high-powered laud hailers inspires Sororitas at great distances.
All friendly units within 18" of a vehicle equipped with a Vox Dei re-roll failed Leadership tests when attempting an Act of Faith.

Special Rules:
Assault Vehicle
Interceptor and Skyfire (Vulcan Mega-Bolter only)

Choirs of Thunder:
Songs of praise and pealing bells ring out from the Battle Chapel, clearly audible over the roar of battle.
As long as they are within 12" of the Battle Chapel, any units from Codex:Adepta Sororitas and allied detachments that are Battle Brothers with the Sororitas gain the War Hymns special rule. However, they may only use the "The Emperor Protects" and "Righteousness of the Emperor" hymns.
Any other units lack the faith in the divinity of the Emperor required to benefit from these rules.

Ponderous Beyond Belief:
During its Movement phase, the Adventus Battle Chapel may either move 6" directly forward or pivot up to 45 degrees, but not both.
The Chapel may never move in the Shooting phase.

Transport:
Transport capacity: 120 models. The Battle Chapel may carry Bulky, Very Bulky, and Extremely Bulky models. In addition, it may carry one or two smaller vehicles (but not super-heavy vehicles!), which count as 30 models each; vehicles that are transports may carry models inside without taking up additional room in the Battle Chapel.
Fire Points: 20 on each side, 10 front, and 10 rear.
Access points: One at the front and one on each side.

Options:
May add up to four pairs of side sponsons, each armed with one of the following:
- Exorcist Missile Launcher: 65 points
- Flamestorm Cannon and twin-linked heavy bolter: 50 points
- Magna-Melta: 70 points

Design notes:

 Necrosis wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
This horrific thing? (Sorry I don't know how to insert the image directly). Yes, that's adequately grimdark. Not a superheavy, though, more of a chariot -- except you can kill the people dragging it in close combat.... hrm.

Also, I've updated the Kriegsminaret and Armoured Pulpit to let them be destroyed on "weapon destroyed results.

No I believe he is talking about this:

Nope. I was talking about the chariot thing. But scaled way up.

I love the idea of this mounted on the back of a stormlord chassis too:

Remove interceptor on the vulcan.

Otherwise it's good.

Brother Haraldus:
Well, I want the Vulcan to be able to fire either at ground targets or surface ones, and Skyfire plus Interceptor is the only way (that I know of) for a ground vehicle to do that without writing a new special rule.

I'm aware that Interceptor also lets you do nasty, nasty things to ground units coming in from Reserves, but honestly if any weapon can see incoming reserves from a great distance and in time to shoot them up, it'd be a weapon mounted on a freakin' cathedral tower....


Boss Fearless:
The chariot thing is awesome. I suspect even scaled up it's still more of a Fast Attack or Heavy Support option rather than a superheavy. (The number of models required to pull a Baneblade on wheels would be, um, hundreds?). What kind of rules were you thinking about?

In My Graven Image:
The more things to mount on the back of a Stormlord/Storm Queen, the better. What were you thinking of it doing rules-wise? I don't know what it does in Warmachine.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Brother Haraldus:
Well, I want the Vulcan to be able to fire either at ground targets or surface ones, and Skyfire plus Interceptor is the only way (that I know of) for a ground vehicle to do that without writing a new special rule.

I'm aware that Interceptor also lets you do nasty, nasty things to ground units coming in from Reserves, but honestly if any weapon can see incoming reserves from a great distance and in time to shoot them up, it'd be a weapon mounted on a freakin' cathedral tower....


Boss Fearless:
The chariot thing is awesome. I suspect even scaled up it's still more of a Fast Attack or Heavy Support option rather than a superheavy. (The number of models required to pull a Baneblade on wheels would be, um, hundreds?). What kind of rules were you thinking about?

In My Graven Image:
The more things to mount on the back of a Stormlord/Storm Queen, the better. What were you thinking of it doing rules-wise? I don't know what it does in Warmachine.

To me the Vulkan seems too slow and cumbersome to intercept say, Deathmarks teleporting in, before they can even do anything.

A Melta Cannon and Inferno Gun together with that troop capacity is sufficient anti-ground IMO.

Giving it a special rule ( ) that allows it to fire at both but not Intercept is what I'd do.

Give it an 'optional skyfire'.
Like 'Enhanced Radar Array' or some such, that allows it to choose to fire as Skyfire or just ignore it and fire as normal.

Like the Tau Velocity Tracker.
+20pts.

Ah, I hadn't thought about teleporting deep strikers.... Maybe that Tau thing is a better model.

 Ovion wrote:
Give it an 'optional skyfire'.
Like 'Enhanced Radar Array' or some such, that allows it to choose to fire as Skyfire or just ignore it and fire as normal.

Like the Tau Velocity Tracker.
+20pts.

Would arguably be worth far more on a Titan.

If a few S7 missiles get Skyfire it has a lot less impact compared to the powerful Mega-Bolter...

Yeah, scaling costs up for Titanic things is tricky. In this case it is a bit easier because we're only talking about one gigantic weapon of mass death instead of all the weapons on the war machine.

I also realize I forgot that part of the points you pay for a Stormlord/Storm Queen go for "all power to weapons" -- ie shooting the Vulcan twice if you don't move. Just applying that same benefit to the three Titan-scale weapons on this thing would be OP.... and no one would ever bother to move it. Thoughts?

BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Ovion wrote:
Give it an 'optional skyfire'.
Like 'Enhanced Radar Array' or some such, that allows it to choose to fire as Skyfire or just ignore it and fire as normal.

Like the Tau Velocity Tracker.
+20pts.

Would arguably be worth far more on a Titan.

If a few S7 missiles get Skyfire it has a lot less impact compared to the powerful Mega-Bolter...

It's 20pts to give the model it.
So that's say... the Str8, AP1 Rail Rifle.
The slew of Str7 Missiles on a Broadside.
The Plasma Fusion Blasters of a battlesuit.

The Ion Accelerator or Heavy Burst Cannon and Smart Missile System of a Riptide.

All 20pts.
That's what the rule is worth.

That the gun is bigger and stronger is built into the cost of the gun.
That the platform is bigger and nastier, is built into the unit.

If it's only applied to the Vulcan Mega Bolter, then the +20 should be fine.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Yeah, scaling costs up for Titanic things is tricky. In this case it is a bit easier because we're only talking about one gigantic weapon of mass death instead of all the weapons on the war machine.

I also realize I forgot that part of the points you pay for a Stormlord/Storm Queen go for "all power to weapons" -- ie shooting the Vulcan twice if you don't move. Just applying that same benefit to the three Titan-scale weapons on this thing would be OP.... and no one would ever bother to move it. Thoughts?

Limit the All Power thing to one Primary Weapon.

I was thinking like a Praetor, with the 2 heavy bolters swapped for heavy flamers (free on data sheet), a 300pt superheavy assault tank with, essentially, a giant exorcist

Giant Exorcist Praetor is a neat idea. So is a Sisterized Crassus...

I have a mental image of the Ecclesiarchy acquiring a whole bunch of Gorgons (carries 50, open-topped, but you can't shoot out of it) and proudly presenting them to the Sisters of Battle, who scornfully reply "You want us to ride in that thing? STFU and get us CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT."

And then the Ministorum sadly fills the Gorgons with Frateris Militia, leading the Sisters to name the vehicles "Dump Trucks" and "Buckets o' Martyrs."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ovion wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
I also realize I forgot that part of the points you pay for a Stormlord/Storm Queen go for "all power to weapons" -- ie shooting the Vulcan twice if you don't move. Just applying that same benefit to the three Titan-scale weapons on this thing would be OP.... and no one would ever bother to move it. Thoughts?

Limit the All Power thing to one Primary Weapon.

But... but... but you pay for it three times! [sniff]

Hadn't really looked at the unit yet.
If it's literally just 3 of them in one, then it may be well fine.

Otherwise, modify it and cost appropriately.

Looking at it. hoboy.

Opentopped means the entire Hull is an access point.

Furthermore, going slow isn't worth 25% of the cost.
Each 6" is worth about 10pts, then the turning is probably worth a bit more.
Call it -50 not -420.

Yeah, costing is hard....and 40K's small boards relative to the range of Titan weapons make slow speed less of a problem. Maybe if we come up with a point savings from getting rid of "All Power To Weapons," we can still keep it under 2,000 points...

Also, I didn't (intentionally) grant it open-topped, even only "for purposes of embarking and disembarking": it's an Assault a Vehicle with three access points and a finite but large number of fire points (60!). That may change valuation a bit too, though I thought it was close enough to a giant Stormord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: is my costing for +3 AV = 270 points reasonable, seeing as this is 9 times as large as an ordinary vehicle (27 HP vs 3) for which your system (I think) says +1AV = 10 points?

I come from a line of thought that focuses more on how to fit a concept into existing rules rather than homebrewing new rules to fit a concept, so I apologize beforehand that my following comments go somewhat against the thread.

I see two legitimate routes to fielding a Penitent Titan within the existing rules, legal for Apoc or Escalation: Greater PT (Reaver) and Lesser PT (Warhound).

The Lesser is easier and cheaper to model rules-wise, as a "Warhound" with twin Flamer "arms" and the Titan's inherent Stomp attack filling in for the two massive CCWs the "Flamers" are mounted to. 720pts, and legal in any Sister list.

The Greater is a better model for an actual up-sized Penitent Engine, with two TCCWs for the arms, and a carapace "mounted" Flamer standing in for the two arm mounted Flamers. The torrent capable Inferno Cannon simulates both Flamers being fired together as a single Helstorm template. The two TCCW will net you 0-12-ish Str D hits, a good model for to hugianormous melee arms.

While I've yet to run a Warhound with this set up, it does stsnd as a pretty decent melee oriented Titan with phenomenal anti-infantry capability. The Reaver version is something I run in the form of my Brawler Light Battle Titan, a Reaver with 2 TCCW and a Vortex Missile. This guy is awesomely distracting, and only marginally useful, but on so fun to outflank!

SJ

Interesting. But how do two Titan Power Fists on a Reaver give you "0-12" hits? The Reaver has A:2, +1 for an additional close combat weapon -- or am I missing something?

But yes, I can see why a Reaver with two Titan Power Fists would be a little overspecialized for close-range fighting -- especially if you have an Inferno Gun on top instead of a Vortex Missile.

Jeffersonian is thinking of the old rules. They heavily nerfed D melee weapons in the latest book. They used to give several bonus attacks.

Ah. Given how many people hated D weapons in the past, I can understood how "you get extra attacks and each hit auto-kills a tank" might best be dialed down to "you get your normal number of attacks and each hit auto-kills a tank."

Well, a Reaver currently has 2 base attacks, so would have 2+1 Str D attacks with 2 TCCW, which deal 0-12 wounds/hull points per successful hit, for a total of 36 if you roll all 6's, 0 if you miss, or an average of 6 in most combats. That does not include Hammer of Wrath nor Charge bonus.

SJ

Ah, ok. You're thinking of the Hull Points you can potentially take off an enemy Superheavy -- which is, wow, a lot.

I was thinking about wading into a bunch of normal sized units and wailing on them -- for which a Destroyer melee weapon is pretty inefficient, since you're overkilling a handful of targets and leaving the rest alone. Normal-sized units are what Stomp is for (in melee, that is; you can also just stand off and fire blast weapons, but that's not in character for the Penitent Titan specifically).

Did a little math on Titanic melee combat. 9-HP superheavies -- Warhounds, Penitent Titans (which are just Warhound variants), and all the variant Baneblades -- actually die pretty fast to a Titan optimized for close combat,

Since there's very little terrain that gives a cover save to a Titan, basically a battle between a normal firepower-heavy Titan and a crazy melee-specialist Titan comes down to whether the shooter can kill the assaulter before it charges, which in turn is a matter of raw speed (go, Warhound!), HP (go, Reaver!), and how far apart they started (go, ludicrously small gameboards!)

The tactical dilemma that our homebrewed Penitent Titan poses is that it has the "That Which Kills Us Makes Us Stronger" special rule, when means the more you shoot it, the more Attacks, Initiative, and movement it gets.... until it drops dead. So you really, really, really don't want to shoot it up unless you're sure you're going to shoot it dead before it can charge -- but you also don't want to spend too much of your army's firepower shooting at the DISTRACTION TITAN and letting the rest of the enemy force move up unmolested.
And Penititan makes an especially good distraction because its 6++ Shield of Faith save means that 17% of the time hits from non-Destroyer weapons will just bounce off hilariously. "Goddammit I just hit you with my Battle Cannon/Melta Cannon/Baneblade Cannon/Skullhurler and it got deflected by your fething beliefs???"

Quick boil-down of my math (which may, y'know, be wrong):
Jeffersonian's Reaver maxed out for melee combat with two Titan Power Fists can kill a Baneblade in a single charge most of the time and a Warhound or Penitent Titan some of the time.
A Penitent Titan can kill either a Baneblade or a Warhound most of the time if it gets the charge. If it's taken enough damage to really power up, it has a good change of killing a Reaver.
And the Penitent Titan has higher initiative (I:2 vs. I:1, even without using "TWKUMUS" for an Initiative boost) so it's getting the first shot in all these cases.
That said, if the Penititan charges a Reaver and doesn't kill it, and that Reaver has two Titan Power fists, the Penititan is probably toast.

Stop! Mathhammer time:


Math behind the math:

Hoookay I like what you did here. I don't play Apocalypse or have a copy of Escalation, so I'll comment on the Deliverer Assault Shrine only.
The first thing came into my mind when I was reading its fluff was this.
It is all good by now, but I think its transport capacity should be higher, if it is going to be used alongside your Frateris Militia. And instead of POTMs, the Shrine may have a version of the All Aboard ! rule of FW Grot Mega Tank, since it is that big, and have a full load of enthusiastic and blood thirsty crew And gameplaywise, it allows SoB player to put out maximum firepower on the move, since its weapons are mostly short-range and without Heavy, it won't be able to use most of them. If you do this, the price should be raised.
Keep up the good work !

Neat thoughts. The Deliverer is really just a big tank, like a Land Raider, plus I imagine very few players (or 40K commanders) would fill it with Frateris rather than Repentia. But I also have an idea for a ramshackle Frateris-only transport (the Hussite) capable of carrying 20, which I need to update and revise, and that could certainly steal some ideas from the Grot Mega Tank.