Dark Eldar Archon get it. Being fragile theirs breaks upon failure but I don't think it is too far a stretch of the imagination to believe that Marines could be given a superior version of something that a Xenos army has.

I really like the sound of the Lion-themed Terminators. If GW do a Terminator or new DA upgrade sprue I hope that bits for Lionators would be included

I really hate the sound of Lion-themed Terminators.

This is just silly. Terminators are SUPPOSED to be Elite within elite. But that's not enough, now we get Elite-Terminators (Elite within Elite within Elite) and even more powerful Elite-Elite-Terminators (...). Lets not even mention "arms race" this sparks between codices. Obviously, codex Marines and Black Templars now also need their elite^2 Terminator units. And when time comes to write new Grey Knight codex, Paladins have to be buffed as they're no longer anything specials compared to Uber-terminators of other books. Before long, we are going to have super-mega-elite-hyper-terminators with WS6 BS6, 2++, 3 wounds and EW.

These new rumours sound great for my planned DW army with small support from a speeder sqaudron and one or two tac squads. 2+inv on belial sounds ott though

Well, if Ward really wants a FOC full of Terminators perhaps DA will get a Fortification that spawns D6 Terminators per turn? Or a huge walking fortress-cum-Terminator....

tuiman wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
I don't think there will be a 2++ on Belial. I don't know of anything off the top of my head (even in Apoc) that has a 2++.

These seem a little far-fetched.

Warding stave for grey knights (I know its not the same thing but its still a 2++) and the armor you can get for a dark eldar archon

It could even be something like a warding stave, will have to wait and find out I guess

Yeah, but those both have drawbacks. I'm thinking of the lines of a flat out 2++ save. I could see something like the warding staff, but a flat out 2++.

What's Vulkan Hestans save?
Doesn't the celestine have a 2++?

Celestine has a normal 2+ and a 4++.

Doesn't eldrad have a 2++ rerollable?

A 3++.. which he can use Fortune on to make it re-rollable.

PredaKhaine wrote:
What's Vulkan Hestans save?
Doesn't the celestine have a 2++?

Celestine is 2+ armour save & 4++ invuln.
Vulkan has a 3+ armour & 3++ invuln.

Hell, even Chaos Daemons - the army of invulnerable save, only have 3++ at best! -this crap if DA's get a stupid 2++ on a character...

Mind you, I believe this could likely happen because, well, look who's writting the book. I love GW's new balanced model of books for both Fantasy & 40k. Too bad it looks like it's about to get fethed up by one moron though...

We don't know that for sure yet. Rumors are just that, rumors. While I understand that he-who-shall-not-be-named is basically a hat, I am going to give him one last shot. I DO like the chaos dex and the overall direction that has been taken. I am hoping that GW understands that they have been starting to actually make people happy and tone down the stupid stuff that appears in some of the more...unpopular codices.

I really hope that Codex: Dark Angels isn't just Codex:Raven/Deathwing. I myself like those list options but it would be a shame to have the DA be a non PA army.(again.)

Not to stop the hate wagon, but GK and Necrons are actually faring quite well from a balance standpoint and BA/SM are a bit below that. Keep raging against Ward though.

Experiment 626 wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
What's Vulkan Hestans save?
Doesn't the celestine have a 2++?

Celestine is 2+ armour save & 4++ invuln.
Vulkan has a 3+ armour & 3++ invuln.

Cheers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:
Not to stop the hate wagon, but GK and Necrons are actually faring quite well from a balance standpoint and BA/SM are a bit below that. Keep raging against Ward though.

WAAARD!

(sorry, saw the post above and thought I'd better keep my hand in...)

Liking the idea of lion themed terminators. Made my command squad with Scribor lion heads and shoulder pads some time ago. Now all we need is to get some attack lions

 Absolon wrote:
Liking the idea of lion themed terminators. Made my command squad with Scribor lion heads and shoulder pads some time ago. Now all we need is to get some attack lions

You could use the high elf ones mixed in with Space Wolf thunderwolf bionic leg bits in the meantime for a double dose of heresy.

The problem is that Calibanite Lions weren't actual "lions" in any real sense.

They were chimera styled creatures, with no two being the same.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The problem is that Calibanite Lions weren't actual "lions" in any real sense.

They were chimera styled creatures, with no two being the same.

Hey maybe everyone will stop complaining about Thunderwolves [for about 5 min]

There are no lions on caliban . *ducks*

Or the rock

I liked Thunder Wolves. They make sense in the context of Space Wolves...

Well, at least until they started being ridden.

But Calibanite Lions were all products of the Warp taint on Caliban, and have more in common with the monsters infesting Ulthuan in Warhammer Fantasy than lions proper.

ellis_esquire wrote:
There are no lions on caliban . *ducks*

You mean there is no Caliban for Lions. Except for the rock, of course.

Experiment 626 wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
What's Vulkan Hestans save?

Vulkan has a 3+ armour & 3++ invuln.

Vulkan has a 2+ (artificer armor) and 3++ (crazy cape)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am guessing that the x2 Str power sword is probably wrong, it's more than likely just the +2 Str that he has currently.

It might be S8, but it sounds like it will still be AP3 so he will need help vs 2+ armor.

Well, 2++ tend to be rare and usually limited in some other ways, but they do exist: Ghaz, Dark Eldar Archon, GK Staff, etc..

Dark Angels may or may not get it.

At some point however, some future army surely will get it.

Now I'm worried if I should bother getting a TAC squad for Dark Angels or waiting to see if they'll get a specific infantry box. And, while I do know that there is an "upgrade" kit, I'm rather unimpressed with the five poses that are in said kit.

Big lion-themed armour... where have I seen that before?

Oh oh I know! They could make them into walkers of different colour and have them combine together to form a bigger walker!

http://cyrildason.com/wp-content/uploads/voltron.jpg

There's also the whole thing about the Atramentar from ADB's Night Lords novel having a roaring lion/cougar head for their shoulderpads...

The idea of heraldic animals is nothing new, and I definitely like it. At least as long as it's restricted to the Deathwing or Inner Circle.

All hail the Liontron!!! Hail! Hail! HAIL!!!!

The Scibor lion themed stuff is really tight... And I do believe that MY opinion of the models is that they would be awesome... But fluff-wise, it wouldn't make sense... And I think that the cavalry concept is a little silly for a Spess Mahren... More of an IG thing... Or Khorne, of course... Well, maybe less silly than I had originally imagined... Okay, fine... Not as silly for mechanical steeds, anyway...

OOOOH!!! Lion-speeders... Not quite jet-bikes... Not quite lions... Their fuel is mostly soy-based meat-substitute... And then, although no wounds are caused, their thrust-exhaust causes units passed over to make panic tests (as for shooting), or be forced to flee 2d6" in a random direction to get out of the affected area, and are treated as pinned in the following round as they are retching violently... They are capable of be used as a standard bike (can be scoring) as they have legs and can walk on the ground; and as jet-bikes (ignores terrain, however starting or stopping in difficult terrain requires a dangerous terrain test).

Lion-speeders FTW!!!

Those rumors sound like absolute malarky.

 pretre wrote:
Not to stop the hate wagon, but GK and Necrons are actually faring quite well from a balance standpoint and BA/SM are a bit below that. Keep raging against Ward though.

6th contained a significant quantity of nerfs against GK. Power weapon nerfs made it so that halberds can be countered in CC relatively easily by just using Terminators, and hull points cut a lot of the cheese out of Fortitude.

In any case, if Ward is trying to temper his work and balance dexes, then that's great.

I love the idea of having a Belial model, that sounds awesome.

As far as the rest of it goes. *shrugs* It is what it is. Doesn't matter what we end up getting there will be as many people that don't like it as people that do.

The thing I want to see the most, is that there is a unique feel to the chapter, like they did with Blood Angels, instead of just Codex: Space Marines 6th ed (DA fluff)

Praise the Emperor and brace yourselves for the Dark Cheese is inbound!

While I'm much more excited than I was as I was really worried that the DA wouldn't feel the same with subpar terminators and bikers compared to SW/GK, I'm now concerned that DA may once again be nothing more than their wings.

Hopefully there's a lot more we haven't heard to make the green side of the army just as viable as the black and white.

S5 Assault 6 AP3? Are you kidding? That can't be real.

TedNugent wrote:
6th contained a significant quantity of nerfs against GK.

Or GK and Necrons were designed for 6th...

 pretre wrote:

TedNugent wrote:
6th contained a significant quantity of nerfs against GK.

Or GK and Necrons were designed for 6th...

Mind...blown...

Just read through these and I'm getting kind of nervous. Stick has been reliable but some of this stuff is just waaay out there. It reminds me of his early (inaccurate) predictions of Anointed armor for all GK's, etc.

Updated on the tracker either way.

ellis_esquire wrote:
There are no lions on caliban . *ducks*

LOL
not anymore anyway

I like these rumors I'll just have to bring some crackers to game then. Also ther is no way it will be a permanent 2++ it will probably be similar to the warding stave.

If these rumors are true I will be very upset due to the main fact that all of my friends will hate me :/ Some of these are utterly absurd. Some make a lot of sense.

I too am worried that it will once again become Codex: Deathwing. Especially now that terminators are so good, there really seems like no reason to NOT use DW as your troops. Luckily they are my favorite unit in the DA fluff etc but still... i like my PA guys too. If nothing else I'll keep my BT allies for a little less TDA overload.

-VardenV2

Interesting that Stickmonkey didn't post his latest set of DA rumours on Warseer but seems to PM them to BOLS (the latter is hard to tell, as BOLS almost never tells its sources). Seems that Stickmonkey is sick of all the trolling he gets on Warseer, esp. Avian, an ex-moderator.

Ralis wrote:
I love the idea of having a Belial model, that sounds awesome.

As far as the rest of it goes. *shrugs* It is what it is. Doesn't matter what we end up getting there will be as many people that don't like it as people that do.

The thing I want to see the most, is that there is a unique feel to the chapter, like they did with Blood Angels, instead of just Codex: Space Marines 6th ed (DA fluff)

If Ward does to DA what he did to BA, I will probably quit DA.

I want Dark Angels which feel like Dark Angels. I don't want gee-whiz special toys and units which feel forced and stupid.

 pretre wrote:

TedNugent wrote:
6th contained a significant quantity of nerfs against GK.

Or GK and Necrons were designed for 6th...

Necrons were almost certainly designed with 6th in mind and it reads very similar to both Chaos Daemons just before 5th & Beastmen from just before 8th hit.

GK's though are clearly a 5th edition codex that looks like it has a very few nods towards 6th, similar to the 7th ed Skaven book.
The shift towards mass TEQ units has hurt the GK's assault potential, but overall, they still are a dominating army at the mid-range game and still have plenty of OTT/silly things they can pull.

I do seriously hope however that Ward can produce a decent book that's on the same level as the new CSM's, but simply knowing his habbits and that he's ed-up far more projects than he's balanced, I'm not expecting any miracles...

 Cyrax wrote:

Stickmonkey wrote:HQ:
Azrael - Artificer or Terminator options. New model. Lions Helm grants 3+ Inv., Lion's Wrath grants Gets Hot rerolls (army-wide?), Master crafted Plasma Blaster (see Horus Heresy book?), Sword of Secrets is Sx2 Master Crafted Power weapon. Watcher in the Dark model is W:1 5+ Inv, with no other stats. It cannot be targeted by anything including blasts, and must stay within 2" of Azrael or is removed. Watcher can take Look Out Sirs.

Belial - Terminator armor. New model. Eternal Warrior 2+ Inv!!! Grants Elites Deathwing Termys Heroic Intervention if he is attached. Cannot take options, Master Crafted Strombolter. Sword of Secrets is a Relic Blade with an additional effect. Belian grants a buff to Termys within 6".

Sammael - If mounted in his Speeder, unlocks scoring Speeders. Can also take his normal bike.

Azmodai - Current model (finecast) Unlocks no units. His Litanies grants a longer ranged more potent buff.

Ezekiel - Current model (finecast), Psyker Level 3

Barakiel - Master of the Forge. Armed with a "Reaper Cannon" - 36" S:5 Assault (6 or 12?) AP:3 Extremely Expensive in points.

Librarian - Power Level 1 (upgrade to 2)
Company Master - Power Armor, or Terminator armor
Interrogator Chaplain
Command/Honor squad Terminators or Bikes with Belial or Sammael respectively, Apothecary, Standard bearer, 1x Heavy weapon upgrades. W:2 regardless of armor, or bikes.

Elites:

Chaplains / Brother-Interrogators - Unit size 1-3. Chaplain style death masks, dual bolt pistols and power maul. (can upgrade pistols). B-I have an increased BS over regular chaplains and can operate independantly as IC or join units, B-I only buff the unit they join with litanies (more potent version), while non-upgraded chaplains buff a 6" bubble. B-I are only characters if independent, and cannot leave attached units (similar to Wolfguard).

Inner Circle Unit Terminator armor. W:1, Heroic Intervention if Belial is attached to the unit. WS/BS 5. They get a cover save upon deepstriking. "Lion-themed" visually. Entire unit can purchase Sergeant upgrades. No heavy weapons, Unit max size:5. Categorized as Deathwing Assault Unit

Dreadnought - Venerable and Mortis options. Categorized as Deathwing Assault Unit.

Scouts - Land Speeder Storm as dedicated transport. "Markerlight" effect targets one enemy unit - other Dark Angels units then get a bonus (reroll to hit?) versus the unit as long as the Scouts are within line of sight to thier "Fallen" target. Teleport Homer. Sergeant Namaan (WOOHOO!!) returns, granting Reserve rerolls to all Death Wing units.

Techmarine

Veterans

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/11/40k-rumors-dark-angels-hqs-and-elites.html

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?24243-DA-Rumours

You know what, Belial without that ridiculous 2++ save (It would probably be 2+, 3++) sounds legit. An improved Sword of Secrets, because a relic blade should be a bit beefier if its, you know, important. And instead of unlocking terminators as troops, he instead grants them a buff when he joins them (such as heroic intervention). That does not sound to bad, and it somewhat fits with the lore (terminators teleporting in - assaulting with no hesitation since they are with Belial, a bad ass sword, so on and so forth). The rest of it sounds a bit.... iffy.

The problem is now what am I going to do with my Kick as Stand-in Belial Model with a cool pose and TH/SS

Don't worry nothing is certain yet.

fidel wrote:
The problem is now what am I going to do with my Kick as Stand-in Belial Model with a cool pose and TH/SS

In theory, use him as a regular Master/Captain/whatever-a-generic-SM-Commander-gets-called-in-the-DA-book with that wargear?

I do seriously hope however that Ward can produce a decent book that's on the same level as the new CSM's, but simply knowing his habbits and that he's ed-up far more projects than he's balanced, I'm not expecting any miracles...

You want him to produce a book that has bad internal costs?

fidel wrote:
An improved Sword of Secrets, because a relic blade should be a bit beefier if its, you know, important.

And this is how creep happens. Sword of Secrets was the original +2S power weapon before there was such a thing as relic blades. It was a special unique power weapon, therefore it had +2S. This was considered very powerful - so powerful in fact that CSM had their 1-per-army +2S power weapon taken away by the Gavdex. Then Matt Ward comes out with the 5th ed SM codex and puts a generic Sword of Secrets in it, and he calls it the Relic Blade - after all, who's to say another chapter couldn't also have a unique revered artifact in its armoury too, right? Ok, fair enough. So far so good. But then he goes and allows entire veteran squads to be equipped with them.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

fidel wrote:
An improved Sword of Secrets, because a relic blade should be a bit beefier if its, you know, important.

And this is how creep happens. Sword of Secrets was the original +2S power weapon before there was such a thing as relic blades. It was a special unique power weapon, therefore it had +2S. This was considered very powerful - so powerful in fact that CSM had their 1-per-army +2S power weapon taken away by the Gavdex. Then Matt Ward comes out with the 5th ed SM codex and puts a generic Sword of Secrets in it, and he calls it the Relic Blade - after all, who's to say another chapter couldn't also have a unique revered artifact in its armoury too, right? Ok, fair enough. So far so good. But then he goes and allows entire veteran squads to be equipped with them.

I couldn't agree more, but if you cant beat em...

Relic Blades do make a bit of sense with space marine chapters though since many chapters had these... relic weapons... that weren't really power swords but definitely not as cumbersome as a thunder hammer/power fist. Vulkan's Spear, All the Ultramarines captains weapons (I am thinking Ventris' weapons)... cannot think of others but you get the idea. The +2 strength might just represent the power/sharpness of that weapon that actually comes from the dark age of technology. So back on track, the Sword of Secrets is not just a power sword, it is a power sword from the long times ago where weapons actually had awesome behind it - I guess now the way GW attempts to unique the relic weapons is by adding special rules. Vulkan's spear, Khan's power sword, Emperor champion blade, and other relic weapons all have different rules.


Edit: REMEMBERED ANOTHER ONE - Can't remember his name for the life of me though - the Space Wolf who had a bunch of novels written atter him... I think Ragnar?

Ghaz has been rockin' a 2++ Eternal Warrior for years.

But than another model might get a stab at it and the sky is falling?

I don't get it.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Ghaz has been rockin' a 2++ Eternal Warrior for years.

But than another model might get a stab at it and the sky is falling?

I don't get it.

Ghaz Margaret Thatcher has a 2+ invul once per game when he WAAGHs. The Shadowfield grants a 2+ invul until you roll a 1. The Warding Stave grants a 2+ invul in combat.

Belial just gets a straight up 2+ invul, it doesn't matter where and it's not situational.

I expect that Belial will cost at least 250 points if he has a 2+ invul and Eternal Warrior.

fidel wrote:
Edit: REMEMBERED ANOTHER ONE - Can't remember his name for the life of me though - the Space Wolf who had a bunch of novels written atter him... I think Ragnar?

Ragnar Blackmane - one of the Special Characters from the original Space Wolves codex, and still rocking the same model today...

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


Belial just gets a straight up 2+ invul, it doesn't matter where and it's not situational.

Says who?

I am fairly sure it'll come with some form of caveat like all the other 2++ (assuming the rumour is correct to begin with).

Sweet jebus, why does everyone always take rumours as wrote truth the second it drops and then complain about it like it is already having a baring on their game? What we have right now is a bunch of contextless rumours that may or may not be true/accurate and could be based on playtest material that is wildly out of date. But people are already grabbing their torches and pitchforks and heading to Frankenward's castle to him up.

Hell people aren't even discussing the interesting possibilities of the rumours, just railing against a 2++ save that may or may not have severe limitations (and may not even be 2++ anymore, if it ever was).

What I'm interested in is the flood of new units that have been absent from the Dark Angels for years. Deathwing Honour Guard, elite teleport-assault specialist deathing, Deathwing and Ravenwing being straight up troop choices. The respective MotDW and MotRW providing buffs for their troops rather than being prereqs. Expansion in to new territory (Brother-Interrogators) and expanding on themes left to gather dust for over a decade (the importance of Chaplains). Hell combine this with the other hints of Jetbikes and the Dark Angels are finally starting to sound unique again for the first time since '96.

Even even half of this stuff is true this bodes well for an army that has been hovering in developmental limbo for over a decade as other codices siphon of what little they had before.

As a long time Dark Angels player I am glad we aren't getting another Angels of Death reprint. Either way we are unlikely to know until Q1 next year, so no reason to rage about it already.

As for Deathwing as straigh-up troop choices... why would they ever turn out in significant numbers without their Captain?

Doesn't make much sense IMO.

 Zweischneid wrote:
As for Deathwing as straigh-up troop choices... why would they ever turn out in significant numbers without their Captain?

Doesn't make much sense IMO.

True, on the other hand I've always disliked "you have to take Special character X to field this army". It makes armies so cookie-cutter and special characters feel less "special" if they're on every list. So if this change is true it's one aspect which I like. Particularly if Belial becomes huge killing machine, which also means he's going to be very expensive.

 Zweischneid wrote:
As for Deathwing as straigh-up troop choices... why would they ever turn out in significant numbers without their Captain?

Doesn't make much sense IMO.

Because there are 100 Deathwing members, and only one captain? He can't be everywhere at once after all.

 Zweischneid wrote:
As for Deathwing as straigh-up troop choices... why would they ever turn out in significant numbers without their Captain?

Doesn't make much sense IMO.

Along with the 100:1 ratio thing. It also opens up leading them with other characters, including but not limited to, Azrael, a non-Belial MotDW made with the Master statline, an Interrorgator-Chaplain in TDA attached to the company for a special mission, an attendant Librarian. And it allows this to happen without needing to build the option in to characters armed with TDA or any other fiddly option. It allows you to field an independant group from a large formation made up of a single unit-type.

What's more, it isn't like FoC chart position has much to do with anything other than allowing for a play style. Blood Angels certainly don't have any more assault squads than a codex force but they get them as troops. Grey Knights are rare as it is but can field pure terminator forces. Neither of these require a special character that would be in control of an unusually large formation of the given type (such as a Captain of one of the Assault-squad reserve companies).

FoC position is all about encouraging unique composition and changing play styles. Reading more in to it than that will only drive you insane. :p

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


Belial just gets a straight up 2+ invul, it doesn't matter where and it's not situational.

Says who?

I am fairly sure it'll come with some form of caveat like all the other 2++ (assuming the rumour is correct to begin with).

Says the rumor.

And given who we're dealing with, I'm going to say highly likely that it will come with no caveat. But like you said, assuming the rumor is even correct in the first place.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


Belial just gets a straight up 2+ invul, it doesn't matter where and it's not situational.

Says who?

I am fairly sure it'll come with some form of caveat like all the other 2++ (assuming the rumour is correct to begin with).

Says the rumor.

And given who we're dealing with, I'm going to say highly likely that it will come with no caveat. But like you said, assuming the rumor is even correct in the first place.

I sincerely hope that he doesn't have a 2++ permanent invul save. Even if it was something like a once per game activation liek Ghaz has etc that'd be decent. Belial should be a totally killface character considering he is the captain of one of the best terminator companies in the 40k universe. He is very lackluster in the current rendition. I would love to see him as a much less common choice but with beefier rules, making the army about him, similar to Mephiston etc. As such, I would consider him to be at least 200 points if he gets 3-4 wounds, 2+ 4++ (or whatever is standard) Eternal warrior and a Str 6 power sword and storm bolter + other buffs. Lysander is 200 points and I would hope he would be around the same power level and role as him.

In a way, I am OK with ward writing the dex as I know it should be incredibly powerful, but I also don't want to be seen as a WAAC powergamer/bandwagoner despite the fact that I have been playing DA since 3.5. I also don't want my friends (Vladimpaler + others) to hate my codex as a cheese dex if the units I originally played because they were cool are also super OP. It just ruins the dynamic. At least I can always fall back to my Orks if I need a good fun game with a lot of laughs and tears (as all the Orks die in droves).

-VardenV2

 VardenV2 wrote:

I sincerely hope that he doesn't have a 2++ permanent invul save. Even if it was something like a once per game activation liek Ghaz has etc that'd be decent. Belial should be a totally killface character considering he is the captain of one of the best terminator companies in the 40k universe. He is very lackluster in the current rendition. I would love to see him as a much less common choice but with beefier rules, making the army about him, similar to Mephiston etc. As such, I would consider him to be at least 200 points if he gets 3-4 wounds, 2+ 4++ (or whatever is standard) Eternal warrior and a Str 6 power sword and storm bolter + other buffs. Lysander is 200 points and I would hope he would be around the same power level and role as him.

I wouldn't mind if he was like Lysander but anything more than that is pretty ridiculous. He's lackluster currently but he's only 130 points, for that amount he's actually pretty good considering what he does for the army and what he comes with as standard. Of course, his stats are a holdover from 4th edition so yeah I would expect something a little bit better.

In a way, I am OK with ward writing the dex as I know it should be incredibly powerful, but I also don't want to be seen as a WAAC powergamer/bandwagoner despite the fact that I have been playing DA since 3.5. I also don't want my friends (Vladimpaler + others) to hate my codex as a cheese dex if the units I originally played because they were cool are also super OP. It just ruins the dynamic. At least I can always fall back to my Orks if I need a good fun game with a lot of laughs and tears (as all the Orks die in droves).

-VardenV2

I know you're not a powergamer so it's not a huge deal, it's not as if I will hold it against you. However, assuming even 3/4ths of the described buffs are as ridiculous as the rumors are describing, well...that's what God made Vendettas for, so I can't be too mad.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 VardenV2 wrote:

I sincerely hope that he doesn't have a 2++ permanent invul save. Even if it was something like a once per game activation liek Ghaz has etc that'd be decent. Belial should be a totally killface character considering he is the captain of one of the best terminator companies in the 40k universe. He is very lackluster in the current rendition. I would love to see him as a much less common choice but with beefier rules, making the army about him, similar to Mephiston etc. As such, I would consider him to be at least 200 points if he gets 3-4 wounds, 2+ 4++ (or whatever is standard) Eternal warrior and a Str 6 power sword and storm bolter + other buffs. Lysander is 200 points and I would hope he would be around the same power level and role as him.

I wouldn't mind if he was like Lysander but anything more than that is pretty ridiculous. He's lackluster currently but he's only 130 points, for that amount he's actually pretty good considering what he does for the army and what he comes with as standard. Of course, his stats are a holdover from 4th edition so yeah I would expect something a little bit better.

Indeed, for 130 pts he actually makes a Codex somewhat viable... that's ridiculously cost effective in my book!

 Yojiro wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 VardenV2 wrote:

I sincerely hope that he doesn't have a 2++ permanent invul save. Even if it was something like a once per game activation liek Ghaz has etc that'd be decent. Belial should be a totally killface character considering he is the captain of one of the best terminator companies in the 40k universe. He is very lackluster in the current rendition. I would love to see him as a much less common choice but with beefier rules, making the army about him, similar to Mephiston etc. As such, I would consider him to be at least 200 points if he gets 3-4 wounds, 2+ 4++ (or whatever is standard) Eternal warrior and a Str 6 power sword and storm bolter + other buffs. Lysander is 200 points and I would hope he would be around the same power level and role as him.

I wouldn't mind if he was like Lysander but anything more than that is pretty ridiculous. He's lackluster currently but he's only 130 points, for that amount he's actually pretty good considering what he does for the army and what he comes with as standard. Of course, his stats are a holdover from 4th edition so yeah I would expect something a little bit better.

Indeed, for 130 pts he actually makes a Codex somewhat viable... that's ridiculously cost effective in my book!

Oh, he's very cost effective but for his "fluff" background he is not as good as he should be. He SHOULD be an expensive but powerful character. Not a tax on DW troops so you can unlock cool stuff. He is coming off of 4th edition where he was more on par with characters. Now he is basically a captain in terminator armor that unlocks stuff for a reasonably cheap amount of points.

If the rumors are true he is going in the direction he should be going, however, I feel like maybe a little too far. He should not be able to be beating up Abaddon, Logan, Marneus Calgar (debatable ) and other chapter masters. I'd say he should be a tough, killy, support character like Lysander etc. Buff his homies and dish out the pain when he needs to.

-VardenV2

Ok. So with all the feedback on Belial this is what I am getting:

Belial
WS 6
BS 6
S 4
T 4
W 4
I 5
A 5
LD 10
SV 2+/ 5++ (3++ with storm shield)

Special Rules: Eternal Warrior, Master of Deathwing, Fearless

Wears Terminator armor and carries Sword of Secrets (Relic Blade that grants +2S, AP 2, and does something awesome - like every kill allows his group to do one attack at normal strength immediately - Think hammer of wrath like ability but for every kill he does). Can either carry a plasma Pistol or a Storm Shield at no extra cost.

Master of Deathwing - Unlocks a personal retinue of Deathwing Warriors, all handpicked from the worst grizzled warzones of Deathwing (Basically these guys are Deathwing with one more wound - Paladin "esque"). When Deathwing assaulting, has the Heroic Intervention rule with his squad.

@ Above Doesn't sound too bad. Attack/ wounds maybe high. 7 on charge w/o SS? 5 base+ 1 charge+1 Extra CCW. that spells a lotta hurt all at AP 2 too.( Thought PS were AP 3?Or are Relics upped to Ap 2?) he'll be expexsive to say the least but heading in a direction where he should be IMO. Though probably not final come print time.

fidel wrote:
Ok. So with all the feedback on Belial this is what I am getting:

Belial
WS 6
BS 6
S 4
T 4
W 4
I 5
A 5
LD 10
SV 2+/ 5++ (3++ with storm shield)

Special Rules: Eternal Warrior, Master of Deathwing, Fearless

Wears Terminator armor and carries Sword of Secrets (Relic Blade that grants +2S, AP 2, and does something awesome - like every kill allows his group to do one attack at normal strength immediately - Think hammer of wrath like ability but for every kill he does). Can either carry a plasma Pistol or a Storm Shield at no extra cost.

Master of Deathwing - Unlocks a personal retinue of Deathwing Warriors, all handpicked from the worst grizzled warzones of Deathwing (Basically these guys are Deathwing with one more wound - Paladin "esque"). When Deathwing assaulting, has the Heroic Intervention rule with his squad.

This ruleset would be awesome. But I'd tone his attacks down to 4. And give him a SB or combi-plasma. OR keep his attacks high but make his attacks AP3 like all swords. So it's basically a maul with AP3 instead, which is great. I think he would have an Iron Halo equivalent so a 4++ save but no storm shield. Id put his points at around 225 with these stats. He's pretty beast like this, especially if in a squad with banner and apoth granting FNP.

-VardenV2

The new rumors since mylast post are just awesome. Even from the new models.perspective.
:;
Old Sword of Secrets vs. Relic Blade (Codex creep) - I believe that the SoS didn't count as a 2handed weapon, so Azrael got his +1 attack for his bolt pistol. And it's mastercrafted. IMO the SoS is still better than the RB. Why make it Str x2 (8)? Well it's unique first off, so you're not going to be seeing a shitton of them. And IMO they would do it because the leader of the DA should be be to go H2H with a Wraithlord, a Swarmlord, a DaemonPrince, or other high toughness model that comes down the line with an average or better chance of wounding. There's less of an argument if he'd had a Thunder Hammer, but the DA's are swordy in their fluff, so I can suspend disbelief a little for one item. Don't know why he'd need more than Artificer armor though....the Lion's Helm makes it better than TDA.

Stickmonkey on BOLS wrote:TROOPS:

Deathwing Terminators - Same general layout as we have now, but with additional Plasma Cannon and Autocannon heavy weapon options.

Tactical Squads - The old classics we all love, moving on...

Ravenwing Bike Squad - Up to ten bikers, for each 5 bikes, you may upgrade one to an Attack bike. Attack bike gunner options are: HB, MM, HF, Twin-linked Plasmagun!. Squad can Combat Squad and has Teleport Homers.

FAST ATTACK:

Ravenwing Landspeeder Support Squad - Same as now, but gunner option are: HB, MM, HF, Twin-linked Plasmagun!

Ravenwing Bike Support Squad - Full Attack Bike unit (could also be a duplicate report of the TROOPS Bike Squad)

Assault Squad - Same old classic jump-pack squad we have now.

Ravenclaw Air Superiority Fighter - Dual "Reaper Cannons" allowing Snap Shots on flyers. Can be replaced with 2x Missiles, or 2x Plasma Cannons.

 pretre wrote:

Stickmonkey on BOLS wrote:TROOPS:

Deathwing Terminators - Same general layout as we have now, but with additional Plasma Cannon and Autocannon heavy weapon options.

Tactical Squads - The old classics we all love, moving on...

Ravenwing Bike Squad - Up to ten bikers, for each 5 bikes, you may upgrade one to an Attack bike. Attack bike gunner options are: HB, MM, HF, Twin-linked Plasmagun!. Squad can Combat Squad and has Teleport Homers.

FAST ATTACK:

Ravenwing Landspeeder Support Squad - Same as now, but gunner option are: HB, MM, HF, Twin-linked Plasmagun!

Ravenwing Bike Support Squad - Full Attack Bike unit (could also be a duplicate report of the TROOPS Bike Squad)

Assault Squad - Same old classic jump-pack squad we have now.

Ravenclaw Air Superiority Fighter - Dual "Reaper Cannons" allowing Snap Shots on flyers. Can be replaced with 2x Missiles, or 2x Plasma Cannons.

Allowing snap fire in flyers? I thought flyers get skyfire rule? maybe I am wrong

Sooo...there any rumors here yet?

 Marthike wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Stickmonkey on BOLS wrote:TROOPS:

Deathwing Terminators - Same general layout as we have now, but with additional Plasma Cannon and Autocannon heavy weapon options.

Tactical Squads - The old classics we all love, moving on...

Ravenwing Bike Squad - Up to ten bikers, for each 5 bikes, you may upgrade one to an Attack bike. Attack bike gunner options are: HB, MM, HF, Twin-linked Plasmagun!. Squad can Combat Squad and has Teleport Homers.

FAST ATTACK:

Ravenwing Landspeeder Support Squad - Same as now, but gunner option are: HB, MM, HF, Twin-linked Plasmagun!

Ravenwing Bike Support Squad - Full Attack Bike unit (could also be a duplicate report of the TROOPS Bike Squad)

Assault Squad - Same old classic jump-pack squad we have now.

Ravenclaw Air Superiority Fighter - Dual "Reaper Cannons" allowing Snap Shots on flyers. Can be replaced with 2x Missiles, or 2x Plasma Cannons.

Allowing snap fire in flyers? I thought flyers get skyfire rule? maybe I am wrong

Regardless of whether or not Flyers automatically get Skyfire... If it's an "Air Superiority Fighter", why is it not very good at shooting at Flyers? Seems like it would be an Air Inferiority Fighter, if it's only hitting on Snap Shot...

It's probably just the standard

shoot at ground targets at full BS AND snap fire at flyers

or shoot flyers at full BS etc

Huh, Ravenclaw flier. That sounds..possible actually.

Seems Stickmonkey indeed prefers to post his rumours on BOLS now, where he can't be trolled by Avian:

Stickmonkey on BOLS wrote:SM here, good day BOLS from the far side of the world... Some new small bits to clarify:

Raven's Claw is apparently a nickname or playtest name of the fighter, sounds like this is not the final name.

The snapfire only applies to this rumored reaper cannon on the fighter when firing "full auto" as a Heavy 12 cannon to balance it. Again, according to playtest notes.

TL plasma guns on some models will make their way to standard C:SM

...now I got to go to BOLS for rumors...what is the world coming to?

 wyomingfox wrote:
...now I got to go to BOLS for rumors...what is the world coming to?

Nah, just come here and ignore BOLS.

 pretre wrote:

 wyomingfox wrote:
...now I got to go to BOLS for rumors...what is the world coming to?

Nah, just come here and ignore BOLS.

Nonsense.

You come here to get rumors, but don't believe them until they are reposted (uncredited to Dakka of course) on BoLS.

That's how you do it.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Seems Stickmonkey indeed prefers to post his rumours on BOLS now, where he can't be trolled by Avian

Dude was getting trolled for reporting what he hears? And by Avian of all people? Sheesh...

So, to make the 12 shot reaper cannon balanced, we'll make it snap fire at flyers. So, statistics say 2 of 12 will hit. But to be worthwhile, those shots will need to be str 6 w/ rending, or str 8 really, as most flyers have AV 12 that they present to be shot.

But a str 6 or higher gun getting 12 shots at ground guys w/ a likely marine bs of 4 is balanced? yikes. Are my kids writing this codex?

And to the guy who asked, I agree that it sounds like an Air Inferiority Fighter. Yay.

Salacious Greed wrote:

And to the guy who asked, I agree that it sounds like an Air Inferiority Fighter. Yay.

No no, it's to give your enemy Air Superiority! Think of "You can't fire me, I quit!"

via Nickolas94 via Warseer wrote:
The release date is between 15 January and 15 February u.u Source: friend with an inner informer. This is the reason of so much information in this period.

That will be the first Sat of Feb then, as all big releases are.

Salacious Greed wrote:
So, to make the 12 shot reaper cannon balanced, we'll make it snap fire at flyers. So, statistics say 2 of 12 will hit. But to be worthwhile, those shots will need to be str 6 w/ rending, or str 8 really, as most flyers have AV 12 that they present to be shot.

But a str 6 or higher gun getting 12 shots at ground guys w/ a likely marine bs of 4 is balanced? yikes. Are my kids writing this codex?

And to the guy who asked, I agree that it sounds like an Air Inferiority Fighter. Yay.

Anyone think maybe it snapfires at ground units, and fires full bs at flyers? The would lend to the Air Superiority part.

UltraPrime wrote:
That will be the first Sat of Feb then, as all big releases are.

Or, more likely, this dude is talking out of his ass and is hoping for a false positive.

 ShatteredBlade wrote:
Huh, Ravenclaw flier. That sounds..possible actually.

I just want you to know that every time I read one of your posts I hear it in Dr. K's voice lol.

heavy 12 sounds cool but a lil far fetched, but a flier snap shooting other fliers is a lil weird to say the least. i agree with whale on the snap fire on troops much more likely.this thing sounds like A-10 vulcan mega canon on crack. glad to see new rumors coming down the pipe.

also 10 bikers!? i hope they drop in price or thats a huge point sink

 Hrontore Da Death Bringer wrote:

also 10 bikers!? i hope they drop in price or thats a huge point sink

Look at the Chaos BIkers. They're cheap, like low-20s points a guy now.

I'm surprised no one has put this up yet:

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2012/11/ravenwing-units-black-knights-and-dark.html

That's because it is pure speculation.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

via the Faeit 212 inbox from Carl (name altered because I do not have permission to use it) wrote:

Just reading ravenwing book at blacklibary weekender ravenwing might not get jetbikes still says the technology Is lost but a land speeder called dark shrouds which obscure the area to protect other craft dark talons with hurricane bolters and land speeders with plasma cannons all feature early on also nephilim fighters weather they are in the new codex I don't know but are defo in the book




The new units in the ravenwing book are black knights they ride bikes and have plasma weapons and hammers with a ravens beak on the back they are the sammeal's elites and are almost ready for the deathwing also the deathshourd land speeders which use relics for the tower of angels attached to power generators to project a veil of darkness ahead of there squadron to protect there units and vengance class speeders with plasma cannons. Flyers seem to be dark talons which have hurricane bolters and nephilim fighters. The book is fantastic also. Was told when I asked if they would be in the codex that it was researched very deeply!

So basically, it is one of Natfka's anonymous sources...

 Brother SRM wrote:

 Hrontore Da Death Bringer wrote:

also 10 bikers!? i hope they drop in price or thats a huge point sink

Look at the Chaos BIkers. They're cheap, like low-20s points a guy now.

I mean i'm happy for more bikes. 200pts for 10 bikes sounds awsome plus any other odds and ends you throw on.

Stickmonkey wrote:HEAVY SUPPORT:

Predator - Plasma and "Reaper Cannon" new main gun option, no new sponson options - new model kit possible (and the Predator is kind of an old kit).

Whirlwind - Flakk missile option.

Land Raider - Dark Angels get all the current Imperial types. Deathwing can take then at dedicated transports.

Dreadnought - The classics that we know and love, moving on...

Devastator Squad - Flakk missile option.

Vindicator - Nothing new here...

Siege Cannon - Techmarine's mortar-like cannon. Multiple sources speak of this model being somehow interchangable with Imperial Guard artillery kits to round out the last missing models. ~Editor's note: the Griffon perhaps?

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS:

Rhino - Standard rules.

Razorback - Standard rules, new updated model kit with ALL turret weapons options mentioned.

Land Raider - Deathwing Terminators ONLY.

Land Speeder Storm - Scouts only.

Battle Bunker - from the Wall of Martyrs kit.

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?24243-DA-Rumours

Nothing really surprising as far as transports and heavy support. But aren't Dreaknoughts Elites?

I hope that Mat Ward is not writing the codex... the last thing we need is more OP Loyalist Marine cheese-fest!

 MetalOxide wrote:
I hope that Mat Ward is not writing the codex... the last thing we need is more OP Loyalist Marine cheese-fest!

Thanks for your constructive and well-read comment; it's completely original and I've never heard anything like it before! Let's not forget the bastion of overpowered codex writing; Codex: Space Marines, by Mat Ward, or Codex: Blood Angels, which is more silly than cheesy.

 Brother SRM wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:
I hope that Mat Ward is not writing the codex... the last thing we need is more OP Loyalist Marine cheese-fest!

Thanks for your constructive and well-read comment; it's completely original and I've never heard anything like it before! Let's not forget the bastion of overpowered codex writing; Codex: Space Marines, by Mat Ward, or Codex: Blood Angels, which is more silly than cheesy.

I'm honestly more worried about silly then cheesy....

The point being that the comments "I hope X didn't write this" Are usually posted twice a day. Let's try and do a little more than build your count.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New Razorback model with all the turret options sounds promising. I just bought six Rhino bodies last month...makes me wish I'd bought just a few less.

On that list of DA stuff I was surprised to to see the Imperial Defense network listed while the Fortress of Redemption was not...or is that because it's in the BRB.

And I'm a fan of LR's being DTs for termies. All in all I just can't wait to get the new codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And here's one last thing I'm wondering about...is the new codex going to have power maul options for the character upgrades. Power Mauls being on the DA sprue I used them on my sergeants when a power weapon was a power weapon, was a power weapon. Now that everything got it's own profile I'm wanting them as counts as power swords over mauls. Would still like to use those models in my games. Cuz they look freakin sweet.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:


I'm honestly more worried about silly then cheesy....

Same. In fact cheese wouldn't really bother me. Been playing them since 3rd so a decent codex doesn't seem like a whole lot to ask. I'm still hoping it's a touch more than Space Marines with robes and wing ornaments, which offering a couple types of bikers and terminators might cover.

@MetalOxide...

Is your avatar a picture of Justin Bieber with Iron Man?

Apologies for the slight deviation, but Daemons are now suggested to be arriving first, yet there aren't any new rumours for them since August, and we've practically got a complete codex breakdown for DA.

I think we're seeing them sooner rather than later.

I sincerely doubt we'll see a Razorback or Predator kit with a comprehensive list of options. They're about four years late for the Razorback kit, and while a Predator with better sponsons was made with the Baal Predator, GW stil haven't updated the stock Predator kit. I doubt we'll see a redo of either of those kits until the next Codex: Space Marines.

 Brother SRM wrote:
I sincerely doubt we'll see a Razorback or Predator kit with a comprehensive list of options. They're about four years late for the Razorback kit, and while a Predator with better sponsons was made with the Baal Predator, GW stil haven't updated the stock Predator kit. I doubt we'll see a redo of either of those kits until the next Codex: Space Marines.

I honestly dont see a problem with the current Predator or Razorback kits. They may not be as sexy as the Baal Preds, but they still do their job well enough. I doubt anyone wants their preds or razorbacks to really be built differently. It stays at decently long range and kills A.) Infantry B.) vehicles. Razorback is in the same area. you choose these vehicles to gain long range shooting.

I would like to see what the Ravenclaw is all about. The chibi talon just doesn't deliver the punch I need in the air using allies.

Would be cool to not have to convert a las/plas turret though

Paitryn wrote:

I honestly dont see a problem with the current Predator or Razorback kits. They may not be as sexy as the Baal Preds, but they still do their job well enough. I doubt anyone wants their preds or razorbacks to really be built differently. It stays at decently long range and kills A.) Infantry B.) vehicles. Razorback is in the same area. you choose these vehicles to gain long range shooting.

They look fine. The problem is the Predator's weak and thin sponson weapons. They snap off if you breathe on them too hard.

 Skipphag da Devoura wrote:
@MetalOxide...

Is your avatar a picture of Justin Bieber with Iron Man?

No it's me with Iron man.

As for topic... i would really love to see Plasma Predator turn into reality.
But i think that giving the Termies Plasma and Autocannon is a little to much.

 azreal13 wrote:
Apologies for the slight deviation, but Daemons are now suggested to be arriving first, yet there aren't any new rumours for them since August, and we've practically got a complete codex breakdown for DA.

I think we're seeing them sooner rather than later.

Or perhaps, Daemons are coming out first, but far fewer people play the army/are as excited about the impending release as compared to the 'oodles of longtime DA fans & Space Marine players in general?! Thus we get almost 0 rumors on Daemons, but plenty of tidbits/rumor mongering/wishlisting about the newest marine release.

Dark Angels at least have no outright OTT/broken units causing huge amounts of grief right now.
Daemons on the other hand... Well, let's just say that once again, thanks to those unscrupulous and donkeycave WAAC'ers, us poor Daemon players who've been with the army since early/mid 5th edition are now being lumped in with 'those guys' who've gone out and bought 27 Flamers + 27 Screamers since the WD update.

it would expalin Bieber's rapid rise to superstardom.....

Yeah I've been waiting for a new Pred kit since the Baal came out...

I am really digging the idea of a new pred kit... But let us be somewhat reasonable... The IG get the Plas Leman Russ... And it's really the only truly cool thing that they get... The DA picking it up, is like the C:SM getting Mortis dreads, and Plas (in general), and SW & GK getting TEQ troops... It's taking away from the "cool" factor of the IG...

I will still get one (or more)... But I will feel bad about it... And maybe cry a little...

 Skipphag da Devoura wrote:
I am really digging the idea of a new pred kit... But let us be somewhat reasonable... The IG get the Plas Leman Russ... And it's really the only truly cool thing that they get... The DA picking it up, is like the C:SM getting Mortis dreads, and Plas (in general), and SW & GK getting TEQ troops... It's taking away from the "cool" factor of the IG...

I will still get one (or more)... But I will feel bad about it... And maybe cry a little...

I wouldn't try to pull the "But it's their unique snowflake so we shouldn't get it" card with DA players. They may never find your body

Or you could assume Skipphag was being ironic

 Brother SRM wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:
I hope that Mat Ward is not writing the codex... the last thing we need is more OP Loyalist Marine cheese-fest!

Thanks for your constructive and well-read comment; it's completely original and I've never heard anything like it before! Let's not forget the bastion of overpowered codex writing; Codex: Space Marines, by Mat Ward, or Codex: Blood Angels, which is more silly than cheesy.

Codex: Space Marines was extremely powerful in its heyday, as were the Blood Angels (and arguably they are better in 6th than in 5th). Each book he writes is more powerful than the last. Your sarcasm is asinine. The reason you hear this a lot is because it's true, although I suppose at this point it goes without saying, so there's little need for repetition.

And silly is in some ways far worse than cheesy.

So how do you think Roboute Guilliman will be shoehorned into the Dark Angels story line?

 Skipphag da Devoura wrote:
I can see it all now***

From a very young age, El'Johnson, known as the Lion, held a deep feeling of regret... Remorse even... Having not been born to be an Ultra... So he set out a master plan to fool everyone...

His mentor, Luther, schemed with him... Luther would stay behind, on Caliban, to lure the forces of Chaos there... And when the Lion returned, the two worked furiously to blow up the planet, and kill the Lion... Leaving his sons to fend for themselves in a cold, dark galaxy... In hopes that Guilliman would take pity on the miserable wretches known as the Dark Angels, and allow them entry into his hallowed legion...

THAT is the true sin committed by the Unforgiven...

Guys this thread is not to discuss any and all things Dark Angel, but to address release rumors.

If you are enjoying your conversation about the background by all means start a thread in backgrounds to continue, but it can't continue here. Please only post here with comments on the specific models and rules brought up by the rumors.

Forge World has put out a Plasma Flinger turret for the Deimos Pattern Predator. That's no guarantee that GW will add something similar to the DA Codex, but perhaps if it sells well they could consider it. In any event, I think it would make a fluffy and solid addition to a DA army list.

At the same time I doubt GW wants third party manufactures making readily available and cheaper “future tank energy turrets”. I don’t think “FW already makes it” would be an excuse that flies any more at GWHQ.

 kronk wrote:
Forge World has put out a Plasma Flinger turret for the Deimos Pattern Predator. That's no guarantee that GW will add something similar to the DA Codex, but perhaps if it sells well they could consider it. In any event, I think it would make a fluffy and solid addition to a DA army list.

Considering the book was being written years ago, I doubt this thing will have any impact whatsoever on the codex.

 Brother SRM wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Forge World has put out a Plasma Flinger turret for the Deimos Pattern Predator. That's no guarantee that GW will add something similar to the DA Codex, but perhaps if it sells well they could consider it. In any event, I think it would make a fluffy and solid addition to a DA army list.

Considering the book was being written years ago, I doubt this thing will have any impact whatsoever on the codex.

they might just take a second look at any product they release now, though. I mean, it was done, sure, but it's not as if they've got 40K printed copies lying around (fiscally alone it would be insane) and since GW playtesting seems to be the joke of the century anyway, yeah I can see them adding an option or two.

If it's something that is added to the codex, I doubt it has anything to do with Forgeworld putting a similar model out shortly beforehand.

Faeit212 wrote:January White Dwarf Will Feature Dark Angels
Here is a little snippet sent in to me which gives us a timeline for an exciting end the year, first of 2013 codex release for 40k. Accordingly Dark Angels will probably be released for pre-order before December is done, and up hitting the shelves January 5th.
That would be a great way to start off the new year.

via the Faeit 212 inbox (anonmyous as I have no permission to use the sources name)

the next WD is Hobbit releases and the WD after will feature Dark Angels.
DA codex will be after Christmas though.

As Hastings said in August

Didn't he just say it was march? MAKE UP YOUR MIND!

could make sense given the other rumors about GW business operations. preorder sales for christmas time for DA would not take effect until the next year when the sales become available giving a strong first quarter sales, affecting stockholder confidence vs good christmas sales from DA increasing profit margins too well this year.

only question is, what about the rumor about CD being released jan/feb? I thought they had first crack since they affected both fantasy and 40k?

 Ozymandias wrote:
Didn't he just say it was march? MAKE UP YOUR MIND!

Hastings? No. Guess you think of Stickmonkey. BTW my rumour roundup has them in January since August as well.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Ozymandias wrote:
Didn't he just say it was march? MAKE UP YOUR MIND!

Hastings? No. Guess you think of Stickmonkey. BTW my rumour roundup has them in January since August as well.

Going by context, I think he was thinking of Faeit - though nice to see your bias shining through again, Kroot.

Faeit has numerous anonymous sources, many contradicting, so it is not one "he".
Though nice to see you attacking me for no reason again.

I was really just being facetious...

I hope it's sooner rather than later, when I know a new codex is coming out,my enthusiasm for playing the current one goes out the window.

i was at my local gaming store and the store owner told me he "Knew" that dark angels will be released next month. he wouldn't tell me how he knew or found out but he was very happy and sure of himself

 MetalOxide wrote:
I hope that Mat Ward is not writing the codex... the last thing we need is more OP Loyalist Marine cheese-fest!

Ward isn't THAT bad in terms of rules, sure he does ridiculous stuff, but the armies pay for it in points generally, rather than say, giving long fangs close combat weapons, counter attack, the ability to split fire, and cheaper heavy weapons, while simultaneously making them one point cheaper per model and making their sergeant upgrade free.

Having said that of course, I'm no fan of his fluff and would hate to see "Dark" or "Lion" used as a prefix for every new piece of wargear or special rule, seriously, Blood Fists? What was he thinking...

yay, more honourable first founding chapters that will probably start hugging xenos scum.
lets see, ultramarines love tau, blood angels lov necrons, who are the DA gonna love?

 sierra 1247 wrote:
yay, more honourable first founding chapters that will probably start hugging xenos scum.
lets see, ultramarines love tau, blood angels lov necrons, who are the DA gonna love?

I think they love each other already. No love left for Xenos in that cupboard.

 sierra 1247 wrote:
yay, more honourable first founding chapters that will probably start hugging xenos scum.
lets see, ultramarines love tau, blood angels lov necrons, who are the DA gonna love?

Tyranids. After all, Dark Angels hate Abhumans almost as much as the Fallen and the Nids ate an entire Abhuman civilization.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 sierra 1247 wrote:
yay, more honourable first founding chapters that will probably start hugging xenos scum.
lets see, ultramarines love tau, blood angels lov necrons, who are the DA gonna love?

Tyranids. After all, Dark Angels hate Abhumans almost as much as the Fallen and the Nids ate an entire Abhuman civilization.

Nah, Squats make more sense as the DA BFF as they could be the ones keeping DA in all that old tech like Jetbikes. Then again, DA already have alien BFFs, the watchers.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:
I hope that Mat Ward is not writing the codex... the last thing we need is more OP Loyalist Marine cheese-fest!

Ward isn't THAT bad in terms of rules, sure he does ridiculous stuff, but the armies pay for it in points generally, rather than say, giving long fangs close combat weapons, counter attack, the ability to split fire, and cheaper heavy weapons, while simultaneously making them one point cheaper per model and making their sergeant upgrade free.

Having said that of course, I'm no fan of his fluff and would hate to see "Dark" or "Lion" used as a prefix for every new piece of wargear or special rule, seriously, Blood Fists? What was he thinking...

Riiiiiiiiight... Because before hand, Long Fangs could still split fire, had 'True-Grit' and Counter-Attack, and were so stupidly over-costed they weren't ever worth taking!
And people seem to forget that those 5-6 dudes have no ablative wounds to soak-up casulties, are the ONLY heavy weapon troopers in an entire army AND that every other fething Marine can do the 'split fire' way better through Combat Squads!

So sure, SW's have a couple really solid units that when spammed ad nausium are highly obnoxious to play against, just like every other kind of boring- spam list!

However, unlike Codex: Grey Knights, SW's didn't utterly invalidate 2 entire codicies while simultaniously making a complete mockery of the game meta by forcing every other MEQ & Ork army to go from assaulty to gunline...



I really, really want to see Dark Angels get a good and flavourful codex like what CSM's now have. (ignoring the haters and whiners who still feel overly butthurt that they don't have special snowflake cult termies!)

I really don't want to see the poor DA's turned into just the next flavour of the month bandwagon army that all the ultra competitive players and TFG's gravitate towards in order to simply win games.

 temprus wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 sierra 1247 wrote:
yay, more honourable first founding chapters that will probably start hugging xenos scum.
lets see, ultramarines love tau, blood angels lov necrons, who are the DA gonna love?

Tyranids. After all, Dark Angels hate Abhumans almost as much as the Fallen and the Nids ate an entire Abhuman civilization.

Nah, Squats make more sense as the DA BFF as they could be the ones keeping DA in all that old tech like Jetbikes. Then again, DA already have alien BFFs, the watchers.

Squats aren't aliens, they're Abhumans. Unless they rape the fluff, DA refuse to fight alongside Abhumans.

However, unlike Codex: Grey Knights, SW's didn't utterly invalidate 2 entire codicies while simultaniously making a complete mockery of the game meta by forcing every other MEQ & Ork army to go from assaulty to gunline...

Oh Hey DE, who forced the meta to get rid of high T MC's because they can easily wound down with basic weaponry.

Watching MC's die to splinter pistols is terrible.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Squats aren't aliens, they're Abhumans. Unless they rape the fluff, DA refuse to fight alongside Abhumans.

What's this "unless" nonsense. You can already have armies that see Harlequins and Slaaneshi Daemons fighting side by side, so what's the big deal with DA/Abhumans?

Experiment 626 wrote:



Riiiiiiiiight... Because before hand, Long Fangs could still split fire, had 'True-Grit' and Counter-Attack, and were so stupidly over-costed they weren't ever worth taking!
And people seem to forget that those 5-6 dudes have no ablative wounds to soak-up casulties, are the ONLY heavy weapon troopers in an entire army AND that every other fething Marine can do the 'split fire' way better through Combat Squads!

So sure, SW's have a couple really solid units that when spammed ad nausium are highly obnoxious to play against, just like every other kind of boring- spam list!

However, unlike Codex: Grey Knights, SW's didn't utterly invalidate 2 entire codicies while simultaniously making a complete mockery of the game meta by forcing every other MEQ & Ork army to go from assaulty to gunline...



I really, really want to see Dark Angels get a good and flavourful codex like what CSM's now have. (ignoring the haters and whiners who still feel overly butthurt that they don't have special snowflake cult termies!)

I really don't want to see the poor DA's turned into just the next flavour of the month bandwagon army that all the ultra competitive players and TFG's gravitate towards in order to simply win games.

Forgive me for being audacious, but what exactly did grey knights invalidate? Besides taking a very specific army list and set up that left a lot of easily exploitable openings for other armies, grey knights didn't utterly shut down Daemons. Daemons( i presume that this is an army which you were referring to) weren't even played largely at all in the large tournaments, which consisted mostly of Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard and Dark Eldar. And in a casual format anyone pulling that specific trick is probably not someone you want to play with.
I also don't see how other competitive armies were "invalidated" by ANY of the recent Codex creep offenders. No doubt they have a significant edge in terms of efficiency, but just because my X unit is 1 point less than your X unit, that doesn't mean i just shouldn't take any X at all.
I get that its stressful to have to sit and watch and wait for your army book to get its spot on stage. I play Bretonnians in Warhammer fantasy. My main opponents are High Elves, Skaven, Tomb Kings and Lizardmen, all of which are bad match ups for me. But don't let that foster undeserved hatred for innocent books. Many people thought that Grey Knights were OP in 5th. Turns out they were just designed for a different rules set. Necrons, who were a very balanced army, are now top-tier in multiple categories.
Overall, 6th edition has brought in a multitude of new rules changes and tweaks to smooth balance over. Whether it was intentional or not is a different matter. But overall, the playing field has leveled a lot.

Back in August(?) Hastings said CSM, WOC, DA and CD/DOC by February. We seem to be on course so far. Since DA would seem to be the larger release in terms of models and kits, January just seems to fit. It's GW's "spend your Xmas money" slot, and putting some SM in that slot has to make the bean counters happy.

It'd be a first (I think?) to have back-to-back codex releases. Perhaps it'll be Daemon preorders in late February. But then GW might see Daemons as technically occupying a WFB slot. And if they're as backed up with stuff as they proclaim to be, they gotta pick up the pace a little at some point, right?

Neronoxx wrote:

Forgive me for being audacious, but what exactly did grey knights invalidate? Besides taking a very specific army list and set up that left a lot of easily exploitable openings for other armies, grey knights didn't utterly shut down Daemons. Daemons( i presume that this is an army which you were referring to) weren't even played largely at all in the large tournaments, which consisted mostly of Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard and Dark Eldar. And in a casual format anyone pulling that specific trick is probably not someone you want to play with.
I also don't see how other competitive armies were "invalidated" by ANY of the recent Codex creep offenders. No doubt they have a significant edge in terms of efficiency, but just because my X unit is 1 point less than your X unit, that doesn't mean i just shouldn't take any X at all.
I get that its stressful to have to sit and watch and wait for your army book to get its spot on stage. I play Bretonnians in Warhammer fantasy. My main opponents are High Elves, Skaven, Tomb Kings and Lizardmen, all of which are bad match ups for me. But don't let that foster undeserved hatred for innocent books. Many people thought that Grey Knights were OP in 5th. Turns out they were just designed for a different rules set. Necrons, who were a very balanced army, are now top-tier in multiple categories.
Overall, 6th edition has brought in a multitude of new rules changes and tweaks to smooth balance over. Whether it was intentional or not is a different matter. But overall, the playing field has leveled a lot.

*sigh* Why do people seem to think that you need an entire army of Warp Quake models to screw over the likes of Daemons, Drop Pod armies, DoA, etc...?
1 single 10-man squad. That's it. Play a castle deployment, slap your WQ unit out front, spread 'em out the full 2" coherency and boom! There's a reletively massive 20"x30" or so bubble of instant mishap. Now factor in that the player deep striking will have to aim just over 7" back from that area in order to likely avoid potentially scattering into it, and you've effectively pushed back your enemy by anywhere from about 21" to 28" or more depending on scatter rolls.
Because that's a really fun game, being forced to run your entire army into the teeth of a GK gunline...

In 5th, GK's also;
- Purifyer spam broken every single horde army. Green Tide Orks, Power Blob IG & Tyranids all got roflstomped by what was deemed 'winning flame'. It also really hurt Wych Cults too.
Before combat beings and auto-hitting every single enemy model is just dumb. Added on top of guys who get more attacks and get super cheap Halberds for I6 which no MEQ unit should EVER have! (not even Slaaneshii CSM's outside of HQ should have I6 - it's just too much on top of MEQ stats)

- Draigowing pretty much auto-won any Kill Points mission due to wound allocation BS.

- An entire army of Force Weapons also shifted every single MEQ army from assault capable, (SW's & BA's), into a more 'shooting only' type of army.

- Henchmen spam played the IG's mech game way better than the IG could.

And I wouldn't say the GK's were "obviously designed with 6th in mind", rather they were clearly intended to be a 5th edition army that started to look ahead to 6th edition, just like how Skaven were/are in Fantasy.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

Forgive me for being audacious, but what exactly did grey knights invalidate? Besides taking a very specific army list and set up that left a lot of easily exploitable openings for other armies, grey knights didn't utterly shut down Daemons. Daemons( i presume that this is an army which you were referring to) weren't even played largely at all in the large tournaments, which consisted mostly of Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard and Dark Eldar. And in a casual format anyone pulling that specific trick is probably not someone you want to play with.
I also don't see how other competitive armies were "invalidated" by ANY of the recent Codex creep offenders. No doubt they have a significant edge in terms of efficiency, but just because my X unit is 1 point less than your X unit, that doesn't mean i just shouldn't take any X at all.
I get that its stressful to have to sit and watch and wait for your army book to get its spot on stage. I play Bretonnians in Warhammer fantasy. My main opponents are High Elves, Skaven, Tomb Kings and Lizardmen, all of which are bad match ups for me. But don't let that foster undeserved hatred for innocent books. Many people thought that Grey Knights were OP in 5th. Turns out they were just designed for a different rules set. Necrons, who were a very balanced army, are now top-tier in multiple categories.
Overall, 6th edition has brought in a multitude of new rules changes and tweaks to smooth balance over. Whether it was intentional or not is a different matter. But overall, the playing field has leveled a lot.

*sigh* Why do people seem to think that you need an entire army of Warp Quake models to screw over the likes of Daemons, Drop Pod armies, DoA, etc...?
1 single 10-man squad. That's it. Play a castle deployment, slap your WQ unit out front, spread 'em out the full 2" coherency and boom! There's a reletively massive 20"x30" or so bubble of instant mishap. Now factor in that the player deep striking will have to aim just over 7" back from that area in order to likely avoid potentially scattering into it, and you've effectively pushed back your enemy by anywhere from about 21" to 28" or more depending on scatter rolls.
Because that's a really fun game, being forced to run your entire army into the teeth of a GK gunline...

In 5th, GK's also;
- Purifyer spam broken every single horde army. Green Tide Orks, Power Blob IG & Tyranids all got roflstomped by what was deemed 'winning flame'. It also really hurt Wych Cults too.
Before combat beings and auto-hitting every single enemy model is just dumb. Added on top of guys who get more attacks and get super cheap Halberds for I6 which no MEQ unit should EVER have! (not even Slaaneshii CSM's outside of HQ should have I6 - it's just too much on top of MEQ stats)

- Draigowing pretty much auto-won any Kill Points mission due to wound allocation BS.

- An entire army of Force Weapons also shifted every single MEQ army from assault capable, (SW's & BA's), into a more 'shooting only' type of army.

- Henchmen spam played the IG's mech game way better than the IG could.

And I wouldn't say the GK's were "obviously designed with 6th in mind", rather they were clearly intended to be a 5th edition army that started to look ahead to 6th edition, just like how Skaven were/are in Fantasy.

Gks are definatly designed to be 6th ed in mind, The whole reason they has over powered forceweapons is because now they are all Ap3 which means they can't kill terminators and would die horiabblily against them. There amazing tanks which everyone thought was OP now is useless.

GK is still good because they are a new release, Now if you talk about necrons, every necron list can probably beat a GK list, thats how over powered the necrons are, so stop complaning about the GKs and complain about necrons, Atleast you can deal with GKs with range, how do you deal with never dying necrons and flyers..... ? You can't you just hope you have enough troops to out last their shooting which is just stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More Dark angel releated, I wish the plasma predators are true because then maybe I don't have to choose speeders for every DA list because currently the predators are over price and we have hardly any AP2 stuff unless you take deathwing, even that we have no ranged ap2 on any good troops or tanks.

via Faeit 212 and Stickmonkey

A bit of tidying up and omnibus Dark Angels stuff today boys and gals.

First up Dark Angels Scheduling:

- Dark Angels devoted White Dwarf for January
- Miniatures go up for pre-order end of December and are available very early January. ~So save up some of your holiday money!

Rules-wise we hear the following:

-Sammael still rides the Imperium's only functioning jetbike.
-Larger sized Tactical Squads have been reported ~perhaps the 1st Chapter is still holding onto some of the "old Legion ways"???
-Standard "Green Dark Angels" are well represented with 8 unit choices across the codex. It won't be all Deathwing and Ravenwing.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/11/40k-rumors-dark-angels-for-new-year.html

They don't say which one was which... That's annoying. I imagine the rules part was Stick.

So next year it is.. or better only a few weeks away.

Bigger Tactical units don't seem useful, anyone seen these enlarged CSM squads they could have?

Green Marines. 8 choices ?
- Tacs, Scouts, Devs, Asm, command?, comp. vets? , maybe the Techmarine too?
- would vehicles count as "green" too?

I dunno, if they keep combat squads big squads could be pretty amusing. Even if they don't 20 marines is hard to shift.

Experiment 626 wrote:

In 5th, GK's also;
- Purifyer spam broken every single horde army. Green Tide Orks, Power Blob IG & Tyranids all got roflstomped by what was deemed 'winning flame'. It also really hurt Wych Cults too.
Before combat beings and auto-hitting every single enemy model is just dumb. Added on top of guys who get more attacks and get super cheap Halberds for I6 which no MEQ unit should EVER have! (not even Slaaneshii CSM's outside of HQ should have I6 - it's just too much on top of MEQ stats)

Purifier spam had a ridiculously low body count that was easily abuse-able by a majority of those horde.It also required you to take a 150 hq that almost never contributed to a game, and the whole army gave up killpoints rather easily. With 6th, those weaknesses have only been exacerbated. And wyches did just fine against purifiers, as long as the DE player thought about their charges. And what is wrong with an MEQ unit having I6? go ahead an give a 10 man unit halberds. That unit now costs 260 points. will it wreck your assualt guys? Yeah, thats why their taken! so instead of charging the 10 man halbifiers unit, try shooting them with a plasma gun or 2. See if the halberds make a difference.

Experiment 626 wrote:

- Draigowing pretty much auto-won any Kill Points mission due to wound allocation BS.

This was due to a rules abuse that was obscure at best and only used by certain players. I unfortunately do not believe that the writers of the rules play competitively, and so they have no idea that certain loopholes exist. Nob bikers were doing this before Paladins, and while Paladins did do it better, they hardly "auto-won" games. Did they have an advantage? Yes, but a vindicator or anything of the like helped your problems immensely.

Experiment 626 wrote:

- An entire army of Force Weapons also shifted every single MEQ army from assault capable, (SW's & BA's), into a more 'shooting only' type of army.

That's called adapting to your meta. Guess what? It's not new. And if a player brought a Take All Comers list, he often could deal with "An entire army of force weapons" just fine.

Experiment 626 wrote:

- Henchmen spam played the IG's mech game way better than the IG could.

I'm sorry but how? by spamming psybolted assualt cannons? on Razorbacks? I do believe that the majority of IG tanks out-range and outclass razorbacks. Fortitude was an extreme boon in a GK mech spam list, i'll give you that but that doesnt turn a razorback into a leman russ.

Experiment 626 wrote:

And I wouldn't say the GK's were "obviously designed with 6th in mind", rather they were clearly intended to be a 5th edition army that started to look ahead to 6th edition, just like how Skaven were/are in Fantasy.

Mastery Levels, their force weapons, warp quake, brain mines, psycannons and a few others now, after looking back, have very obvious 6th edition applications or uses that its hard to believe Ward didn't know what was coming. They were clearly and literally, "designed with 6th edition in mind." They were made to be effective in 5th edition while still being affected by the changes wrought by 6th.

But i won't comment on this anymore, as this is a Dark Angel thread. Honestly what i want out of the Dark Angels book is a mid-tier/competitive book with good internal/external pricing. If ward is writing it, the book could go either way. Good rules, but bad pricing or bad rules, good pricing, etc. I just hope that there are builds beyond deathwing and ravenwing.
Just saw Cyrax's post. Yay

Best if we take the GK discussion to the 40k general board chaps. Thanks

 pretre wrote:
They don't say which one was which... That's annoying. I imagine the rules part was Stick.

You are correct

11-17-12: Faeit 212

naftka wrote:via the Faeit 212 inbox (anonmyous as I have no permission to use the sources name)
the next WD is hobbit releases and the WD after will feature Dark Angels.
DA codex will be after Christmas though.

 sierra 1247 wrote:
yay, more honourable first founding chapters that will probably start hugging xenos scum.
lets see, ultramarines love tau, blood angels lov necrons, who are the DA gonna love?

I see someone doesn't know who the Watches In The Dark are.

We don't actually know what the Watchers in the Dark are.

They could be aliens, they could be abhumans, they could be manifestations of a Warp entity.

 Kanluwen wrote:
We don't actually know what the Watchers in the Dark are.

They could be aliens, they could be abhumans, they could be manifestations of a Warp entity.

so my guess is that they'll end up being warp manifestations of the guilt hanging over the Dark Angels.

-Sammael still rides the Imperium's only functioning jetbike.

Yeah, that just gets more and more daft every time I read it.

"The Dark Angels and their successors hold the only working examples of ancient Jetbike technology. They alone know how to maintain their limited quantity and, like all their secrets, are loathe to share them with anyone else..." seems far more reasonable than "Sammael has the last one ever. EVER EVER! So it gets borked then he can't get another one. Ever. EVER EVER!"

 Kanluwen wrote:
We don't actually know what the Watchers in the Dark are.

Space Hobbits!

except, i remember Watchers in the first HH novel for the DA's...
they should be some kind of Warp creature though, as Caliban seemed to be a very tainted world...

i'm looking forward to seeing what they do with this Codex...
i like the way BA's went more assualt, and got a few cool new toys...
it will be interesting to see the DA's new toys...

cheers
jah

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

-Sammael still rides the Imperium's only functioning jetbike.

Yeah, that just gets more and more daft every time I read it.

"The Dark Angels and their successors hold the only working examples of ancient Jetbike technology. They alone know how to maintain their limited quantity and, like all their secrets, are loathe to share them with anyone else..." seems far more reasonable than "Sammael has the last one ever. EVER EVER! So it gets borked then he can't get another one. Ever. EVER EVER!"

At least its not a deep striking land raider..... /sigh

Kroothawk wrote:

Faeit212 wrote:via the Faeit 212 inbox (anonmyous as I have no permission to use the sources name)
the next WD is Hobbit releases and the WD after will feature Dark Angels.
DA codex will be after Christmas though.

wyomingfox wrote:

 pretre wrote:
They don't say which one was which... That's annoying. I imagine the rules part was Stick.

You are correct
11-17-12: Faeit 212

naftka wrote:via the Faeit 212 inbox (anonmyous as I have no permission to use the sources name)
the next WD is hobbit releases and the WD after will feature Dark Angels.
DA codex will be after Christmas though.

Nice find

Oh, and:

75hastings69 wrote:Don't know quite why I'm getting misquoted across the interwebz I've been saying for MONTHS (not cryptically either) that DA would be up for preorder in Dec and Daemons release in Feb???? Must not be straightforward enough for some!

That release order I posted still stands BTW

Saving up for deamons in February. Hope blight drones make it in.

Not blight drones but similar, I can see 40k players using the FW blight drones instead of the big nurgle flies ridden by plagubearers that are getting released.

That doesn't work since they were present before the Fall.

fursphere wrote:
At least its not a deep striking land raider..... /sigh

Don’t count your chickens yet. Ward is apparently writing this one as well. We could still get Deep Striking “Dark Predators” with “Dark Plasma Cannons”.

So if the jan WD if going to be DA, does that mean that the codex is slated for jan as well? or Feb?

 Billagio wrote:
So if the jan WD if going to be DA, does that mean that the codex is slated for jan as well? or Feb?

Have a look at the White Dwarfs of the last 20 years and make a daring guess

December pre-orders would be good. Might even have some money left after all those damn christmas presents

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
We could still get Deep Striking “Dark Predators” with “Dark Plasma Cannons”.

Which spawn 1D6 Dark Deathwing Terminators when they Dark Deep Strike.

At this point I'll just be happy if the book is at least an upgrade but if there must be cheese...well then there must be cheese. Pepper Jack. Will probably make my SM friend's army sad though, can already beat him with half his book with some planning.

 ShatteredBlade wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
We don't actually know what the Watchers in the Dark are.

They could be aliens, they could be abhumans, they could be manifestations of a Warp entity.

so my guess is that they'll end up being warp manifestations of the guilt hanging over the Dark Angels.

And when you're doing nasty things to yourself in the dark, they're always watching!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly, I'd be happy just to be able to have an odd number of marines in my squads. Just that would be fantastic. Maybe bring some weapon prices in line with the vanilla dex, give my dreadnoughts options to make a mortis too.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Space Hobbits!

Guard have them already!

Space Gnomes?

The Watcher in the Dark were around before the Heresy? Too bad, it would be cool if they were like the gnome-like creatures in Cirque du Freak: The Vampire's Assistant. Except, you know, them being the Fallen.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Space Gnomes?

Phase 1: collect Dark Angels Artifacts

Phase 2: ????

Phase 3: profit

BramGaunt wrote:On a sidenote: Despite my sources said nothing on the specifics about the january release, they did say that, due to new year, january release could be one week later then the regular schedule. I have the january White Dwarf for release on the 5th of january. The same thing happened this year, iirc.

I guess they'll be hobbits, and will match the release of the hobbit & the codex in december.

... but Hobbits with a dark secret

I imagine the Watchers to be sort of like the Keepers in mass Effect, if any of you have played that. They are just sort of there and take care of things. And everyone is like, "Well, ok it makes our life simpler I guess..."

I think that they probably are some sort of warp entity that protects Caliban (what's left of it) and maybe even had something to do with Lion's success before the Spess Emprah arrived. They are dark and mysterious, as they should be...

-VardenV2

The problem with claiming that they are Warp entities is found in Codex: Dark Angels 3rd... The Watchers in the Dark are semi-unique in that they are immune to effects of the Warp... Like the Pariah of Codex: Necrons of yore...

What are the Watchers In The Dark? As one friend of mine said, now we know what happened to the Squats.

They are supposed to be mysterious sub-humans that were indiginous to Caliban, and now reside in the Rock.

They are not Squats.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
They are supposed to be mysterious sub-humans that were indiginous to Caliban, and now reside in the Rock.

They are not Squats.

Someone got out on the wrong side of their Drop Pod and left their sense of humor behind. Wow, Dark Angels really are grim and humorless fanatical killing machines, joy killing machines that is! Thanks folks, I'm here all week.

 ShatteredBlade wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
We don't actually know what the Watchers in the Dark are.

They could be aliens, they could be abhumans, they could be manifestations of a Warp entity.

so my guess is that they'll end up being warp manifestations of the guilt hanging over the Dark Angels.

Read the HH Fallen Angels watchers existed before the Emperor found Caliban.

IN other news YEEEEEEEAAAAAHHHH my codex is on the way!

Also it sound like we will be very diverse with a lot of different choices here is hoping it works.

I'll go for the watchers being a psycic manefestation of all the psykers that are killed to fuel the golden throne (& yes I know they were around while the emperor was healthy, but time has no meaning in the warp)

They serve the Dark Angels for now, but in the end will make them into their instruments of revenge on the Imperium that took their lives

 captain collius wrote:

 ShatteredBlade wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
We don't actually know what the Watchers in the Dark are.

They could be aliens, they could be abhumans, they could be manifestations of a Warp entity.

so my guess is that they'll end up being warp manifestations of the guilt hanging over the Dark Angels.

Read the HH Fallen Angels watchers existed before the Emperor found Caliban.

IN other news YEEEEEEEAAAAAHHHH my codex is on the way!

Also it sound like we will be very diverse with a lot of different choices here is hoping it works.

Yes, they were pre heresy. But with the..uhm..author of the coming book who knows?

From blog.spikeybits.com/2012/11/angels-of-vengeance-coming-2013.html

Angels of Vengeance- Coming 2013?
Posted by Man Boy Genius Tuesday, November 20, 2012
More rumors were swirling recently about a possible White Dwarf delay because of apparently Hurricane Sandy? Personally I don't know what that is about, but I do know I love me some Dark Angels so lets get to it!

Now would perhaps be a good time to pick up some of the Dark Vengeance Dark Angel models BEFORE everyone else wants them and their prices go though the roof!

Oh and Faeit also reports December's White Dwarf (when it comes) will be a DOUBLE sized feature event. Excited?

From Faeit 212
Here is a little snippet sent in to me which gives us a timeline for an exciting end the year, first of 2013 codex release for 40k. Accordingly Dark Angels will probably be released for pre-order before December is done, and up hitting the shelves January 5th.

That would be a great way to start off the new year.

via the Faeit 212 inbox (anonmyous as I have no permission to use the sources name)
the next WD is hobbit releases and the WD after will feature Dark Angels.
DA codex will be after Christmas though.

Spikeybits made an acceptable summary of what is written in this thread

I still think it would be kinda cool, if you could add a few Watchers to a group, to act kinda like Tau Drones.

Don't say that!!!! Now it's gonna happen... And then, that will just add to the whole "We LOVE the Tau" Imperium...

And that would make me a sad panda...

Everyone knows the watchers are Jawas.

Yes... Jar-Jar be praised, Jawas... Let them be Jawas...

Everyone knows the watchers are Jawas.

I am surprised it took this long to be brought up. Whenever I moved my watchers, I always made the "hoo-tini" noise

As an aside if we dont get jetbike sqauds I swear I will I will...be very upset

This one's got a bad motivator, what are you tying to pull?

 Volkov wrote:

Everyone knows the watchers are Jawas.

I am surprised it took this long to be brought up. Whenever I moved my watchers, I always made the "hoo-tini" noise

As an aside if we dont get jetbike sqauds I swear I will I will...be very upset

Prepare to be very upset good sir.

Maybe ward is trying to redeem himself by NOT provideing us with jetbikes?

You won't get jet bikes, your space marines of the ward dynasty, you'll get dark jet bikes which will be maintained by dark watchers in the dark.

Theophony wrote:
You won't get jet bikes, your space marines of the ward dynasty, you'll get dark jet bikes which will be maintained by dark watchers in the dark.

They'll have Shrouded, right?

I don't understand why no jetbikes. That is the most obvious unit to add. The rumours I have heard have units of quasi-chaplains with twin bolt pistols. Where the hell did that idea come from? It must be another GW marketing strategy. "Lets not make a unit that people definitely want...lets make a unit that people never knew they might want"

 Volkov wrote:
I don't understand why no jetbikes. That is the most obvious unit to add. The rumours I have heard have units of quasi-chaplains with twin bolt pistols. Where the hell did that idea come from? It must be another GW marketing strategy. "Lets not make a unit that people definitely want...lets make a unit that people never knew they might want"

Forge-World made the Scimitar Pattern Space Marine Legion Jetbike just recently. So, from my guess, they won't include them into the DA codex. Pretty strange reasoning but that is my take on it. I want jet bikes too but I'm not getting my hopes up for my mother Jetbikes! ... !

Giving people what they clamour for would set up a dangerous precedent of actually delivering on fanbase feedback.

Can't have that, mate.

 Volkov wrote:
I don't understand why no jetbikes. That is the most obvious unit to add. The rumours I have heard have units of quasi-chaplains with twin bolt pistols. Where the hell did that idea come from? It must be another GW marketing strategy. "Lets not make a unit that people definitely want...lets make a unit that people never knew they might want"

You're crazy if you think there is desire for Jetbikes across the board, there's plenty of Dark Angels players who give a crap about not retconning that particular fluff.

Also, I've seen numerous people make groups of plasma/bolt pistol dual wielding veterans just because they could, so I don't think those "quasi-chaplains" as you call them are nearly as undesirable as you are making out.

I'd also be surprised if Forgeworld jetbikes are what prevented GW from making DA jetbikes, if they thought jetbikes would really be a huge seller they would have made them part of the proper GW line because forgeworld is still niche and will never sell as much of a product as having it in every GW store and a standard codex will.

They may give us Jet bikes, if only to separate us from the Codex further.

I'll be happy if there are no jetbikes. I am not a big fan of GW's "more is better" policy, I think it dilutes the good ideas/designs they have come up with in the past. For example, Dante's design made him stand out and gave the Blood Angel range contrast and something unique. Now we have Sanguinary Guard which just spams the concept, with Sanguinor (heresy!) to top it all off. Thunderwolf cavalry are in the same basket ("we heard you like wolves, so we put a wolf on your wolf, being followed by a wolf, with wolf fur covering half of his wolf iconography"). If DA get jetbikes, the 'special-ness' of Sammael goes out the window. Half-interrogators all duel wielding pistols: c'mon, seriously? Plasma-spam, if it is as widespread as the rumours suggest, is also in the same basket. Plasma weapons and jetbikes do not define the Dark Angels Chapter, and should not be used for that purpose. If that is the crutch that GW leans on, instead of a rich and edifying background, I will be greatly saddened

The Dark Angels I love are brave, loyal without conscience, proud but unforgiven, opinionated and strategically gifted. I want the new Codex units to reflect this, with enough subtlety to respect me as a veteran collector of Dark Angels.

If it doesn't, well... I'll just keep playing and collecting my way

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 Volkov wrote:
I don't understand why no jetbikes. That is the most obvious unit to add. The rumours I have heard have units of quasi-chaplains with twin bolt pistols. Where the hell did that idea come from? It must be another GW marketing strategy. "Lets not make a unit that people definitely want...lets make a unit that people never knew they might want"

You're crazy if you think there is desire for Jetbikes across the board, there's plenty of Dark Angels players who give a crap about not retconning that particular fluff.

\o_ Here's one DA player who hates the idea of jetbikes. It would be lame if the only way to tell Dark Angels apart from other chapters is that they have jetbikes or other extra special bling toys.

Also...isn't there only like less than ten jet bikes left? I couldn't see units of them being used playing out well.

 blood lance wrote:
Also...isn't there only like less than ten jet bikes left? I couldn't see units of them being used playing out well.

According to the current DA book, there aren't even that many. Sammael's entry specifically says it's the ONLY one left.

Except for all the successor chapters who have their own not-Sammael...

 Ozymandias wrote:
Except for all the successor chapters who have their own not-Sammael...

Nah, they get landspeeder duplicates.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
This one's got a bad motivator, what are you tying to pull?

But I was going to Tashi Station to pick up some power converters!

 Platuan4th wrote:

 blood lance wrote:
Also...isn't there only like less than ten jet bikes left? I couldn't see units of them being used playing out well.

According to the current DA book, there aren't even that many. Sammael's entry specifically says it's the ONLY one left.

Actually, the codex doesn't say it is the only one left. It uses a lot of weasel words such as "one of the last", "nigh extinct technology" and other things that give them a lot of wiggle room. In the end I don't give much of a crap in either direction anymore. I just don't want another rehash of the original 1996 codex. I own that one, I love it, and I wont be buying yet another version of it. I want the Dark Angels to get made distinct from standard codex formations. Whether they do that with jet bikes or another unique unit or two matters little to me.

But let's be clear adding jet bikes back is a retcon of a retcon. I, for one, wouldn't mind seeing the return of the RT-era RW background of a company-wide orbital bike drop come back (and who said you needed Ward for over the top fluff? Managed just fine back then without 'im. )

 Ronin_eX wrote:
(and who said you needed Ward for over the top fluff? Managed just fine back then without 'im. )

Only the Ward haters say that because they forget that the entire Studio has a say on the fluff and that the fluff has to be ok'd by a "Fluff Master" that makes sure nothing makes it in that the Studio as a whole doesn't want.

It's just denial that the entire Studio wants the fluff to be this over the top.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Ronin_eX wrote:
(and who said you needed Ward for over the top fluff? Managed just fine back then without 'im. )

Only the Ward haters say that because they forget that the entire Studio has a say on the fluff and that the fluff has to be ok'd by a "Fluff Master" that makes sure nothing makes it in that the Studio as a whole doesn't want.

It's just denial that the entire Studio wants the fluff to be this over the top.

What the is a Fluff Master and where can I find him or her.

But seriously I don't know why people do not understand that. Said codex fluff does have to be approved as well as edited by the editor.

 ShatteredBlade wrote:
Said codex fluff does have to be approved as well as edited by the editor.

I'm not so sure about the use of editing or editors.

 Volkov wrote:
I don't understand why no jetbikes. That is the most obvious unit to add. The rumours I have heard have units of quasi-chaplains with twin bolt pistols. Where the hell did that idea come from? It must be another GW marketing strategy. "Lets not make a unit that people definitely want...lets make a unit that people never knew they might want"

I was pretty sure that has been standard procedure at GW for a long time?

I am just hoping that FW comes out with the regular sized jetbikes.

Well I am a ravenwing player first and Dark Angels second. I have played Ravenwing since the appendix of the 3rd Edition rulebook, and well 16 years later, I am kind of wanting more than bikes, attack bikes, and landspeeders. For the jetbike nay-sayers all I can say is; then play codex space marines. I am in the camp that Dark Angels aren't really that divurgent and 'could' be rolled into C:SM with maybe 2 special characters. Space Marine bike armies are better than Ravenwing anyway. I liked the direction Blood Angels took in that they made them a distinct army from Space Marines. Yes wargear like bloody blood fists of bloodiness had to be invented to achieve that, but oh well such is life. Dark Angels should be different then Space Marines, and ret-conning is necessary to achieve that. I wasn't bashing the plasma pistol wielding chaplains, I was just commenting that you need not think outside the box when you still have ideas within.

I'm actually liking the sound of splitting up the specialist companies in to multiple groups (and extending the Inner Circle to actually be seen concretely on the game table outside of just being what we call our characters). Ever since 3rd Edition rolled around and the concept of DW and RW armies became our thing, one thing has always been abundantly clear. And that is that mono-unit armies are boring.

Now, from the sounds of things, GW have realized this and also realized that a lot of Dark Angels players identify as, umm, wingers. Whether they claim to play Greenwing, Deathwing or Ravenwing. This go around actually sounds like it caters to those players while also giving the mixed-arms approach a lot of possible build options.

As Deathwing player who has had a love affair with terminators since he started playing in 2nd Edition, I am really hoping the multiple Deathwing units is a thing. I'd love to be able to build a Deathwing army without composing it from a single troop type and a handful of vehicles. 4th tried to force mixed-arms tactics on everyone by making DA a one-trick pony (and failed because it never made the greenies an important part of the trick). Here is hoping this one will cater to Ravenwing, Deathwing, Greenwing and mixed-DA players alike by being flexible and varied.

As it is some of the Ravenwing rumours sound great (even some focus on Speeders again, something kind of left to the wayside after 3rd Edition gave away our unique vehicle). If Jetbikes end up being some kind of elite unit in there I will be happy. If not then I will still be fine with the other potential rumours like the Nephilim and Black Knights.

Now here is hoping they also take the time to fix some of the background and actually add a little more to it (Wolves and BA get a lot of time spent on initiation, I want to know how the DA go about it for once). In the end I want us to get a codex that makes me go "wow" again and reminds me of the first time I opened Angels of Death. I want a codex that brings the magic back and ends the stagnant design we have been getting since our first codex dropped. And even if only half of these rumours are true, it sounds like we may get it (at the very least these rumours sound exciting, unlike those for 4th Edition where the big things were getting bolt pistols and grenades on our troops for free... oh and combat squads).

 Volkov wrote:
Well I am a ravenwing player first and Dark Angels second. I have played Ravenwing since the appendix of the 3rd Edition rulebook, and well 16 years later, I am kind of wanting more than bikes, attack bikes, and landspeeders. For the jetbike nay-sayers all I can say is; then play codex space marines. I am in the camp that Dark Angels aren't really that divurgent and 'could' be rolled into C:SM with maybe 2 special characters. Space Marine bike armies are better than Ravenwing anyway. I liked the direction Blood Angels took in that they made them a distinct army from Space Marines. Yes wargear like bloody blood fists of bloodiness had to be invented to achieve that, but oh well such is life. Dark Angels should be different then Space Marines, and ret-conning is necessary to achieve that. I wasn't bashing the plasma pistol wielding chaplains, I was just commenting that you need not think outside the box when you still have ideas within.

I can understand that if you focus on the Ravenwing component of the army, it would be good to have more variety. Ravenwing has consistently been given more variety with every new Codex. For example, in 2nd Ed. we only had one type of Landspeeder (AC and HB) and one type of Attack Bike (MM). Look at how the army has grown since then!

Sensible ret-conning doesn't bother me, a single Codex can only explore so much and is limited by what the miniature range can achieve. New units don't bother me, everyone likes new stuff. Ward and the dedicated team of writers/editors at GW do not bother me. Turning something special and unique into a joke does bother me. Blood Angels were distinct before everyone had armour like Dante. Space Wolves were distinct before they were riding wolves. My greatest concern is that people can no longer celebrate the distinctions between Chapters, unless it is explicitly modelled in an over-the-top way. It is unimaginative.

My opinion is that GW could do better with the DA narrative than just taking a good idea and spreading it thinly until it runs out.

...And I'll start playing the SM codex when the Dark Angels are forgiven, thank you very much

Well said Ronin, well said


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I can understand that if you focus on the Ravenwing component of the army, it would be good to have more variety. Ravenwing has consistently been given more variety with every new Codex. For example, in 2nd Ed. we only had one type of Landspeeder (AC and HB) and one type of Attack Bike (MM). Look at how the army has grown since then!

Sensible ret-conning doesn't bother me, a single Codex can only explore so much and is limited by what the miniature range can achieve. New units don't bother me, everyone likes new stuff. Ward and the dedicated team of writers/editors at GW do not bother me. Turning something special and unique into a joke does bother me. Blood Angels were distinct before everyone had armour like Dante. Space Wolves were distinct before they were riding wolves. My greatest concern is that people can no longer celebrate the distinctions between Chapters, unless it is explicitly modelled in an over-the-top way. It is unimaginative.

My opinion is that GW could do better with the DA narrative than just taking a good idea and spreading it thinly until it runs out.

...And I'll start playing the SM codex when the Dark Angels are forgiven, thank you very much

I see what your saying. But Blood angels weren't that distinct. The only unit they had that Space Marines did not were the command squad with jump pack, and the Baal predator. Space wolves were always way out there, whether they are riding wolves are not. I guess my hope is that the DA become less Codex Astartes oriented, and a much different army play-style then smurfs. DA are also in a unique position of really being 3 armies in one, and expanding one doesn't have to happen at the expense at another. So give us plasma chaplains and jetbikes, and lion riding terminators...ok scratch that last one. But DA variety right now is stifled, and I think it could really be expanded.

As a Dark Angels player who runs a "Whatever Wing" force with lots of termies, backed up by grunts, with a Ravenwing cav unit bringing up the mobile fire power I concur with Ronin completely, I feel like the rumors are lending themselves to more varied and individualistic forces compared to dropping 30 terminators on a table. I'm hoping we end up with a unique heavy armor variant of some kind, whether it be Land Raider or Predator.

I really hope I can still field my force though. I literally field 30 terminators. Now some of you will be crying "OMG YOU DOING THIZ CUZ ITS 6TH" ... so then I slap then with my old metal termie model. I have been playing that ever since 1) the dark angel codex came out; 2) I got 30 terminators for 100 dollars .

Honestly I play 30 terminators because it is cool as hell to see - I personally love how terminators look and all the more better that I can field them all. I mean my force does have some support (2 dreadnoughts usually backed up by three landspeeders), but its nothing significant. I would be pretty mad if they took away my ability to field my army.

fidel wrote:
I really hope I can still field my force though. I literally field 30 terminators. Now some of you will be crying "OMG YOU DOING THIZ CUZ ITS 6TH" ... so then I slap then with my old metal termie model. I have been playing that ever since 1) the dark angel codex came out; 2) I got 30 terminators for 100 dollars .

Honestly I play 30 terminators because it is cool as hell to see - I personally love how terminators look and all the more better that I can field them all. I mean my force does have some support (2 dreadnoughts usually backed up by three landspeeders), but its nothing significant. I would be pretty mad if they took away my ability to field my army.

I doubt they will, the 30 termie force is the hallmark of the "wings" personally I run 20 termies with two tac squads to consolidate objectives while the terms continue to advance.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

fidel wrote:
I really hope I can still field my force though. I literally field 30 terminators. Now some of you will be crying "OMG YOU DOING THIZ CUZ ITS 6TH" ... so then I slap then with my old metal termie model. I have been playing that ever since 1) the dark angel codex came out; 2) I got 30 terminators for 100 dollars .

Honestly I play 30 terminators because it is cool as hell to see - I personally love how terminators look and all the more better that I can field them all. I mean my force does have some support (2 dreadnoughts usually backed up by three landspeeders), but its nothing significant. I would be pretty mad if they took away my ability to field my army.

I doubt they will, the 30 termie force is the hallmark of the "wings" personally I run 20 termies with two tac squads to consolidate objectives while the terms continue to advance.

Well.. you know... you get 30 termies all built already (it was 10 thunder hammers, 10 lighting claws, and 10 Storm bolter shields - all with the max allowed cyclone missile launchers (so he put all 6 of them on thunder hammer termies)) for $100... you have to use it at every game

My actual list ( I will do 1750 since from there on all you do is add termie squads and you get 2000 and 2250 lol) consists of Usually belial, librarian (termie), dreadnaught, mortis contemptor, 4 squads of 5 terminators, and three landspeeders. As long as it doesn't deviate from that too much with a new codex I am fine

I wonder if deathwing terminators will be like csm terminators and wolf guard with regards to gear. Maybe they'll come cheap (like 33 points) with stormbolter and powerweapon and you pay extra for a powerfist etc. Would be cool to get some cheap terminators like that but they'd better include a lot of power weapons in the deathwing terminator set if they choose that route

via Master Sheol on Warseer
About DA models... A guy in the italian forum i go told that a friend of him saw some new DA models...
I think this must be taken with a huge amount of salt but this is the rumor...

DW box in DV style...
Veteran unit in PA + robes with guns an shields and a lot of blings...
Belial model in a very cool TDA...

The other guy who gave the rumors of multiple DW units said

Élite DW CC unit can purchase one of the following upgrades: BS5, some kind of reroll in H2H, some kind of bonus for DS...

Heavy support termies can swap PF for a second SB (assault4), sternguard ammo and peculiar heavy weapons (AC with "plasma" ammo or something like that) and take one of the following upgrades: BS5, some kind of reroll against veichles, full BS of charged...

Please take all this rumors with a HUGE amount of salt... They are not mine... I am just reporting and translating them from italian sources...

Ok, I like dual Storm Bolter options; seems rahter cool.

But Plasma Ammo?
Can someone please explain to me how the hell do you conceal plasma in a shell than fire it trough your Assault Cannon?

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

via Master Sheol on Warseer
About DA models... A guy in the italian forum i go told that a friend of him saw some new DA models...
I think this must be taken with a huge amount of salt but this is the rumor...

DW box in DV style...
Veteran unit in PA + robes with guns an shields and a lot of blings...
Belial model in a very cool TDA...

The other guy who gave the rumors of multiple DW units said

Élite DW CC unit can purchase one of the following upgrades: BS5, some kind of reroll in H2H, some kind of bonus for DS...

Heavy support termies can swap PF for a second SB (assault4), sternguard ammo and peculiar heavy weapons (AC with "plasma" ammo or something like that) and take one of the following upgrades: BS5, some kind of reroll against veichles, full BS of charged...

Please take all this rumors with a HUGE amount of salt... They are not mine... I am just reporting and translating them from italian sources...

Ok, I like dual Storm Bolter options; seems rahter cool.

But Plasma Ammo?
Can someone please explain to me how the hell do you conceal plasma in a shell than fire it trough your Assault Cannon?

Magic

Imperial Space Magic, patented by the Emperor obviously

75hastings69 wrote:As for DA they'll be in the WD that gets released in December and will be on sale in Jan, as some have quite rightly already said.
(...)You can certainly expect a new speeder type

Faeit 212 Inbox wrote:I just read yesterdays rumor post about Deathwing, this is nothing like what I have been told by the Games Workshop source I know. This is what I was told.

*HQ models will be recast into finecast. Same models
*New Belial model robes, powersword, stormbolter, or plasma bolter combi
*New Chaplain
*Deathwing Box Set: Comes with 3 options; Normal DW Terminator Squad, Command/HQ Squad with Banner and Apothecary, and an Elite Squad with Plasma Cannon options
*Ravenwing Box Set: Bikes remodeled and look like the Ravenwing bikes from Dark Vengeance, but same build as normal bikes, also with added weapons for the new Ravenwing Elite unit.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
But Plasma Ammo?
Can someone please explain to me how the hell do you conceal plasma in a shell than fire it trough your Assault Cannon?

Wardian physics.

I don't see how that's any different than "Vengeance Rounds", to be honest.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I don't see how that's any different than "Vengeance Rounds", to be honest.

Which was created by....

12thRonin wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I don't see how that's any different than "Vengeance Rounds", to be honest.

Which was created by....

Do you have a point or are you just wanting to have more Ward hate?

Look into the Deathwatch RPG. See how much of Ward's stuff has made it over there.

The plasma gun he's referring to is likely just the plasma cannon terminators we've been hearing about for months. Perhaps it's not a plasma cannon but rather just an assault 3 plasma gun type deal.

 Kanluwen wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I don't see how that's any different than "Vengeance Rounds", to be honest.

Which was created by....

Do you have a point or are you just wanting to have more Ward hate?

Look into the Deathwatch RPG. See how much of Ward's stuff has made it over there.

Considering that he wrote both of them, it shouldn't be surprising. Stupid Ward fluff has happened before and it will happen again. Deathwatch also has nothing to do with this discussion but I applaud your attempt at the Jedi Mind Trick.

12thRonin wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I don't see how that's any different than "Vengeance Rounds", to be honest.

Which was created by....

Do you have a point or are you just wanting to have more Ward hate?

Look into the Deathwatch RPG. See how much of Ward's stuff has made it over there.

Considering that he wrote both of them, it shouldn't be surprising. Stupid Ward fluff has happened before and it will happen again. Deathwatch also has nothing to do with this discussion but I applaud your attempt at the Jedi Mind Trick.

The perception that one author alone is responsible for each book is silly. The studio, as a whole, is responsible for each book and the material in it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
But Plasma Ammo?
Can someone please explain to me how the hell do you conceal plasma in a shell than fire it trough your Assault Cannon?

Wardian physics.

Kroot Rifles already fire Pulse-(i.e. Tau Plasma)-enhanced projectiles in the fluff.

Contrary the Ward Haters looking for another straw, the credit would thus have to go to Andy Chambers, Graham McNeill and Pete Haines (irrespective of whether something like this goes into the DA Codex or not).

 Kanluwen wrote:
I don't see how that's any different than "Vengeance Rounds", to be honest.

I'm assuming there's something lost in translation here and they're basically Terminators with Sternguard ammo. A squad of assault 2 AP2 weapons sounds kinda nuts.

12thRonin wrote:
Considering that he wrote both of them, it shouldn't be surprising. Stupid Ward fluff has happened before and it will happen again. Deathwatch also has nothing to do with this discussion but I applaud your attempt at the Jedi Mind Trick.

Mat Ward had nothing to do with the DW RPG.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

12thRonin wrote:
Considering that he wrote both of them, it shouldn't be surprising. Stupid Ward fluff has happened before and it will happen again. Deathwatch also has nothing to do with this discussion but I applaud your attempt at the Jedi Mind Trick.

Mat Ward had nothing to do with the DW RPG.

I didn't say he did. That was Kan's notion.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Contrary the Ward Haters looking for another straw, the credit would thus have to go to Andy Chambers, Graham McNeill and Pete Haines (irrespective of whether something like this goes into the DA Codex or not).

You're not a Ward hater Zwei? And here I was thinking that there was at least one thing where you'd be critical of GW.

12thRonin wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

12thRonin wrote:
Considering that he wrote both of them, it shouldn't be surprising. Stupid Ward fluff has happened before and it will happen again. Deathwatch also has nothing to do with this discussion but I applaud your attempt at the Jedi Mind Trick.

Mat Ward had nothing to do with the DW RPG.

I didn't say he did. That was Kan's notion.

No it actually was not. That was you making an assumption.

I said:

Look into the Deathwatch RPG. See how much of Ward's stuff has made it over there.

The Deathwatch RPG is intrinsically tied into the Studio at this point.
Look at how fast the Stormraven made an appearance in the Deathwatch RPG.

Why wouldnt the stormraven make it into deathwatch? Its an official GW product from their fluff. As far as i know, Deathwatch uses the official GW fluff. And why make an entirely new device when a perfectly good one exists?

I'd assume plasma rounds would be just like a conventional explosive or armor piercing incendiary round in out universe. Hollow round with some form of containment, impact triggers the secondary effect.

 Kanluwen wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

12thRonin wrote:
Considering that he wrote both of them, it shouldn't be surprising. Stupid Ward fluff has happened before and it will happen again. Deathwatch also has nothing to do with this discussion but I applaud your attempt at the Jedi Mind Trick.

Mat Ward had nothing to do with the DW RPG.

I didn't say he did. That was Kan's notion.

No it actually was not. That was you making an assumption.

I said:

Look into the Deathwatch RPG. See how much of Ward's stuff has made it over there.

The Deathwatch RPG is intrinsically tied into the Studio at this point.
Look at how fast the Stormraven made an appearance in the Deathwatch RPG.

Deathwatch was brought up by you so I'm not sure how that's an assumption on my part. Put your favorite crimson fish back in it's scabbard and climb down from the back of your white knight steed.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


You're not a Ward hater Zwei? And here I was thinking that there was at least one thing where you'd be critical of GW.

Oh. I am. Games Workshop produced some of the worst gaming products in history in recent years.

The Space Wolves Codex and Dark Eldar Codex with their appalling loony-toon black-hole in a box hack-job of fluff stand out first among them. Not even considering the travesty that their internal balance is. DreadFleet is something they should be eternally ashamed of, not only because it sold bad, but because it is the absolute low point in convoluted, counter-intuitive and simply bad game design. I still have nightmares about the ineptitude that brought us cheese falcons in 4th Edition. And all of that pales in contrast to the universal singularity of inept game design that was the Chaos Codex 3.5.

But by and large, GW has been on an upswing late. Rule balance has improved immensely (if ya don't look at Space Wolves), some of the new model ranges such as Grey Knights are simply stunning, as well as cleverly lowering the entry barrier to the game with innovative game designs like the "Draigo-Wing", which needs very few models. The fluff is respecting it's tongue-in-cheek roots a lot more. It's a good time to be playing 40K by and large.

Aaand ... another thread hijacked by Zweischneid and H.B.M.C.

Maybe they could be removed from the forum, for the public good?

Public good? Oh give me a break...

Nvs wrote:
The plasma gun he's referring to is likely just the plasma cannon terminators we've been hearing about for months. Perhaps it's not a plasma cannon but rather just an assault 3 plasma gun type deal.

There used to be a Plasma Blaster back in 2nd edition...was more or less a twinlinked plasma gun (note that TLing was different back then).

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

via Master Sheol on Warseer
About DA models... A guy in the italian forum i go told that a friend of him saw some new DA models...
I think this must be taken with a huge amount of salt but this is the rumor...

DW box in DV style...
Veteran unit in PA + robes with guns an shields and a lot of blings...
Belial model in a very cool TDA...

The other guy who gave the rumors of multiple DW units said

Élite DW CC unit can purchase one of the following upgrades: BS5, some kind of reroll in H2H, some kind of bonus for DS...

Heavy support termies can swap PF for a second SB (assault4), sternguard ammo and peculiar heavy weapons (AC with "plasma" ammo or something like that) and take one of the following upgrades: BS5, some kind of reroll against veichles, full BS of charged...

Please take all this rumors with a HUGE amount of salt... They are not mine... I am just reporting and translating them from italian sources...

Ok, I like dual Storm Bolter options; seems rahter cool.

But Plasma Ammo?
Can someone please explain to me how the hell do you conceal plasma in a shell than fire it trough your Assault Cannon?

I'm not liking the sounds of these supposed Elite/Heavy termie options... BS5 dudes with assault 4 AND special ammo?!

5 of them better cost about 500+ pts or else there's going to be little point in playing against these guys if you can't hide in tanks the whole game.

gorgon wrote:

Nvs wrote:
The plasma gun he's referring to is likely just the plasma cannon terminators we've been hearing about for months. Perhaps it's not a plasma cannon but rather just an assault 3 plasma gun type deal.

There used to be a Plasma Blaster back in 2nd edition...was more or less a twinlinked plasma gun (note that TLing was different back then).

It was not a twin linked gun in 2nd edition (the card specifically said it was not linked). It was a plasma gun with 2 sustained fire dice.

*Deathwing Box Set: Comes with 3 options; Normal DW Terminator Squad, Command/HQ Squad with Banner and Apothecary, and an Elite Squad with Plasma Cannon options

This sounds awsome! I wonder if it will still only be $50...

12thRonin wrote:

gorgon wrote:

Nvs wrote:
The plasma gun he's referring to is likely just the plasma cannon terminators we've been hearing about for months. Perhaps it's not a plasma cannon but rather just an assault 3 plasma gun type deal.

There used to be a Plasma Blaster back in 2nd edition...was more or less a twinlinked plasma gun (note that TLing was different back then).

It was not a twin linked gun in 2nd edition (the card specifically said it was not linked). It was a plasma gun with 2 sustained fire dice.

I stand corrected, although the differences between TL plasma guns and the plasma blaster were minor. Still, the point remains that it was a high rate of fire terminator plasma weapon that could easily make a comeback for DA, given the studio's recent habit of resuscitating RT/2nd ed gear.

And the best part is that it would be Dark Angels stealing something introduced by the Ultramarines! Though open to all the Plasma Blaster was introduced in Codex: Ultramarines and was used by Captain Invictus. After losing so many things to vanilla armies after all these years, getting something from them as a unique feature would be hilarious.

You're right. It was something Invictus had.

But FW just started putting Plasma Blasters into their HH books, so we might not get them in the DA book as well.

Experiment 626 wrote:
I'm not liking the sounds of these supposed Elite/Heavy termie options... BS5 dudes with assault 4 AND special ammo?!

5 of them better cost about 500+ pts or else there's going to be little point in playing against these guys if you can't hide in tanks the whole game.

It makes sense then, this is their way to bolster their failing transport sales.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

via Master Sheol on Warseer
About DA models... A guy in the italian forum i go told that a friend of him saw some new DA models...
I think this must be taken with a huge amount of salt but this is the rumor...

DW box in DV style...
Veteran unit in PA + robes with guns an shields and a lot of blings...
Belial model in a very cool TDA...

The other guy who gave the rumors of multiple DW units said

Élite DW CC unit can purchase one of the following upgrades: BS5, some kind of reroll in H2H, some kind of bonus for DS...

Heavy support termies can swap PF for a second SB (assault4), sternguard ammo and peculiar heavy weapons (AC with "plasma" ammo or something like that) and take one of the following upgrades: BS5, some kind of reroll against veichles, full BS of charged...

Please take all this rumors with a HUGE amount of salt... They are not mine... I am just reporting and translating them from italian sources...

Ok, I like dual Storm Bolter options; seems rahter cool.

But Plasma Ammo?
Can someone please explain to me how the hell do you conceal plasma in a shell than fire it trough your Assault Cannon?

I'll be honest here, I don't paticularly mind about the options, as long as the models look prettyful.

Especially the character models.
I really do hope that Belial gets a character model with this update, and even more so that the model actualy looks nice, he's one of the characters that I like the concept of the most, and provided the excecution is correct (About a 70/30 good/bad chance I'd say, given GW's recent form), would be an almost instant buy for me.

Also, in answer to your question, I'd assume something along the lines of miniaturised plasma grenades as bullets. Either that or just being a plasma weapon that fires loads and loads of really small plasma charges.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
I'm not liking the sounds of these supposed Elite/Heavy termie options... BS5 dudes with assault 4 AND special ammo?!

5 of them better cost about 500+ pts or else there's going to be little point in playing against these guys if you can't hide in tanks the whole game.

It makes sense then, this is their way to bolster their failing transport sales.

That's just asinine. Transports still work very well in 6th edition, and making one specific unit that can shoot pretty well solely to sell more transports makes no sense whatsoever.

 Brother SRM wrote:
That's just asinine. Transports still work very well in 6th edition, and making one specific unit that can shoot pretty well solely to sell more transports makes no sense whatsoever.

Just a joke, but you can't deny, even if transports still work, the reputation of the ubiquitous rhino has taken a hit in the eyes of many gamers.

The First Blood secondary objective does make Rhinos a liability, but I will still use the hell out of them!

 kronk wrote:
The First Blood secondary objective does make Rhinos a liability, but I will still use the hell out of them!

I stopped using rhinos since the first blood thing. But I play GK, maybe it will be different with DA, though I'd preffer to deepstrike atm, and wait to see the DA fliers.

GWtilea wrote:
- Whirlwind will get recut with a third missile rack with a single big missile (AA skyhammer option?)
- Two new flyers - one smaller and one bigger (rumored Darktalon and Nephilim from BL book?)

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?24243-DA-Rumours

 Ronin_eX wrote:
And the best part is that it would be Dark Angels stealing something introduced by the Ultramarines!

/shrug

Ultramarines should be used to that. After all, Dark Angels stole Veteran Squads, Attack Bikes, Landspeeders, Whirlwinds, HQ-units in Terminator Armour and a whole host of other stuff from UM in 2nd

I was hoping for DA codex after the SM codex so they don't get screwed again 6 months down the road when the SM Codex comes out and units that are the same or similar in both codexes are bettter in the SM codex because GW wants to go in a new direction.

I don't play much SM really but I think they should be the first codex done each edition to use as a measuring stick for every other codex (Marine or not).