yeah the old gorkamorka gunners/drivers look like ork midgets/anorexics that some warboss had a mek build a training box with a wheel in it and painted a picture of a space marine inside and crammed an ork in it then fed them a restricted diet so they would grow all short and stuff to fit into the buggys the meks made...probably had a grot poking them in the side constantly with a grot stikk through a hole in the box to get them squirm about to burn calories.
Perfect Organism wrote: No, the battlewagons are not part of a Detachment, they are their own Formation which is taken in addition to any other detachments. They do not use Force Organisation slots.
So then I just have to have to have at least 5 BW in my list and say I'm using the formation in order for my BW to get scout it doesn't matter where the BW come from?
I guess I'm just not sure how formations fit into the detachment system
They certainly didn't make it clear.
You could do:
Detachment #1 (Faction: Orks)
-CAD (1 HQ + 2 TR required)
-Or use the specific ork detachment (i.e. Great Waaagh)
Detachment #2 (Faction: Orks)
-CAD (1 HQ + 2 TR required)
-Or use the specific ork detachment (i.e. Great Waaagh)
-You cannot make this an allied detachment as it is the same faction as your first detachment
You can keep adding new CADs, ally detachment (as long as it is not from Faction Ork) or formations (even non-ork ones but they need to follow the ally matrix, i.e. add in a skyblight tyranids but follow come the apocalypse rules).
OH!!!! ok I think my confusion was the difference between Combined Arms Detachments and Allied Detachments but I've got it now.
I originally planned on sticking my Big Mek on a bike with a KFF and running him next to my BW but scouting the force means my BM can't keep up so I may just put him in one of the BW with my Boy. Now I gotta figure out if I'm gonna run him in MA or not.
He can scout with a Squad of Deffkopas. I had the same problem then it hit me. An Ah Ha moment.
Has anyone else noticed that the boyz can take a trukk no matter the unit size? At least, that's what it looks like to me. The old entry for boyz said a unit of 12 or less can take a trukk. The new codex just says boyz can take a trukk.
-edit- ahha... just looked over the 1st page. old news... but it's weird to have that option now that everyone can take a trukk.
Only real benefit is now your 30man boyz blobs can take a random 30pt trukk to snag objectives. I wouldnt even put ram on it since its either gonna get shot off the board to prevent a 24" objective steal, or score 1 objective for ya and just sit there.
If it were like the old dex where everything for some dumb reason couldnt take a trukk, people would be doing the "Deployed empty dedicated transport, Turn1 a unit that didnt buy it jumps in" trick.
If you were planning to run a KFF big mek anyways, probably. It only takes a hand full of additional successful saves to make the extra investment worth its points.
So how does list building with the ghaz supplement work? Can you just take a ghaz warboss or mek for their specific gear, then use standard codex for everything else?
You need to use the Great Waaagh! Detachment or one of the formations, otherwise you have no access to the Relics, Warlord table or special rules (read: drawbacks). If you do, you simply get the supplement rules as part of the detachment.
You can still roll on the codex warlord table though, which is not the worst idea, considering how many useless results the new one has.
So, in order to get a HQ with one of the relics, you have to get at least one HQ, one Elite and two Troops choices with supplement rules.
Big Mek w/ KFF, Rokkit, Da Finkin' Kap, 'Eavy Armor, Cybork 109pts
Big Mek w/ KFF, Rokkit, 'Eavy Armor 94pts
Fraid these are illegal. :( The Big Mek has to replace their Slugga to get the KFF, and the Mek Weapons (and ranged weapons) tables also require that the Mek replace their ranged weapon. (Which they no longer have since they have the KFF.) Meks with KFFs basically have to have either MA or a bike if they want to shoot.
Jidmah wrote: You need to use the Great Waaagh! Detachment or one of the formations, otherwise you have no access to the Relics, Warlord table or special rules (read: drawbacks). If you do, you simply get the supplement rules as part of the detachment.
You can still roll on the codex warlord table though, which is not the worst idea, considering how many useless results the new one has.
So, in order to get a HQ with one of the relics, you have to get at least one HQ, one Elite and two Troops choices with supplement rules.
Wait, I can't use a CAD if I make a Waaagh! force my primary detachment? Must have missed that in the supplement.
Solar Shock wrote: Yeh hating converting standard boyz to do the job. Such a pain in the ass. I actually quite like the old models! i use them to keep a nice variety in my army, they all undergo some conversion work, which also helps. But those mini little drivers are hilarious
At this point it might be worth putting grot heads on them and just calling them beefed up grotz rather than trying to make them orkz.
Big Mek w/ KFF, Rokkit, Da Finkin' Kap, 'Eavy Armor, Cybork 109pts
Big Mek w/ KFF, Rokkit, 'Eavy Armor 94pts
Fraid these are illegal. :( The Big Mek has to replace their Slugga to get the KFF, and the Mek Weapons (and ranged weapons) tables also require that the Mek replace their ranged weapon. (Which they no longer have since they have the KFF.) Meks with KFFs basically have to have either MA or a bike if they want to shoot.
Nuts didnt see that. Meh whatever -2 rokkits and i got 10pts to throw somewhere, no big deal.
Technically the KFF did that before too. Will almost never come into play since if youre that close with the KFF its probably about to charge in with the boyz its attached to anyway and none of our guns that will be charging has the AP to pen ANYBODY'S armor lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: Technically the KFF did that before too. Will almost never come into play since if youre that close with the KFF its probably about to charge in with the boyz its attached to anyway and none of our guns that will be charging has the AP to pen ANYBODY'S armor lol.
Ah, good point, just noticed that. I'm not all that sold on KFF to be honest this edition. The fact that it's only models within 6" and that you can no longer radiate it form a vehicle makes me feel like the only viable transport for a KFF mek is bikes, and surrounding a mek with 3/4 trukks to get that 5++ just means that high-str large blasts will have a field day.
felixcat wrote: I plan on running a big mek, kff, killsaw, bp, bike with a unit of three feffkoptas and a buzzsaw and scout or outflank them.
And you're going to use them to charge a unit? Seems like a lot of points to sink into a 2W 6+/5++ model, even if he is T5. His KFF will only be saving 3 deffkoptas as well. It's not like their firepower will be significant, if they survive past turn 2.
streamdragon wrote: Wait, I can't use a CAD if I make a Waaagh! force my primary detachment? Must have missed that in the supplement.
Well, it's kind of easy to miss, since it's not spelled out that way. The supplement pretty much says that it applies its rules when you pick the detachment or Formations from the book. Those rules then force you to pick from another relic table and you get the +2 to mob rule for all units in the detachment/formation. On top of that, Warlords chosen from either the detachment or a formation can chose whether to roll their trait from supplement, BRB or codex and gets the biggest an' da best rule.
Thats what our ork characters are this codex. They make our units excel at their job, either by buffs, morale, or new rules.
None of our characters, not even Ghaz since he got the nerfbat for some dumb reason, are a solo-power house anymore. Loss of an invul did that to us. Slap a Painboy and Boss or Bigmek with Da Lucky Stikk in a unit of your choice, suddenly that unit is pretty fethin nasty.
None of our characters, not even Ghaz since he got the nerfbat for some dumb reason, are a solo-power house anymore.
While this may be true they can still detach and do damage. Our characters are excellent at taking out vehicles with pks or killsaw. If they are on bikes they can attach and reattach where needed.I still see great uses for them. But yes, the lucky stuikk buffs are amazing.
1). 3 gorkanauts
*the formation gets furious charge on turn 2,..... Furious charge, hatred on turn 3..... furious charge, hatred, shred on turns 4+
2) 3 big meks, 1 Warboss, & 1 wierdboy master level 2
*1 big Mek must be warlord
*warlord gets "kunning but brutal" warlord trait
*d3 units get acute senses & outflank
*add +1 to sieze the initiative roll
Vineheart01 wrote: Furious charge on a gork? Wth for? Hes str10 ap1 lol.
Other rules are nifty though.
Yeah I didn't understand those rules at all. What I really don't understand is that the formations for the imperium forces were REALLY good, while I don't think the gorkanaut formation even works correctly.
Can you bring a formation and unbound? Like if I wanted to could I bring the green tide formation then go unbound for the rest to get a second warboss and a painboy to stick in there?
mrfantastical wrote: 2) 3 big meks, 1 Warboss, & 1 wierdboy master level 2
*1 big Mek must be warlord
*warlord gets "kunning but brutal" warlord trait
*d3 units get acute senses & outflank
*add +1 to sieze the initiative roll
Depending on the details, this could be really, really good. I fought a game last night which I won pretty much because my opponent seized the initiative and I didn't have sufficient resources coming into his back field. Some tankbustas or even a nice big mob of shoota boys engaging him from the side would have been an absolute game changer. I generally run at least one big mek and a weirdboy anyway and could easily find uses for the other meks and a warboss, especially if they can outflank. My only concern is that they have to deploy as one unit, but even then it will be OK if you can attach them to a mob of meganobs and add a painboy or something.
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Billagio wrote: Can you bring a formation and unbound? Like if I wanted to could I bring the green tide formation then go unbound for the rest to get a second warboss and a painboy to stick in there?
"Unlike other Detachments, Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the Formation."
Billagio wrote: Can you bring a formation and unbound? Like if I wanted to could I bring the green tide formation then go unbound for the rest to get a second warboss and a painboy to stick in there?
You could I believe, but you could also stay 'battle forged' and bring a second CAD and just put the HQs from it into the Green Tide, which is what I'm going to do.
Might have been covered already, 22 pages is a lot but what are your guys views on the best artillairy units? Im drawn towards the bubblechucka myself. I know the str is technically inverse to the AP but the big blast template is nice.
That or the kannon? Would you take extra crew for their cheapish points?
Ratius wrote: Might have been covered already, 22 pages is a lot but what are your guys views on the best artillairy units? Im drawn towards the bubblechucka myself. I know the str is technically inverse to the AP but the big blast template is nice.
That or the kannon? Would you take extra crew for their cheapish points?
I'm partial to the traktor kannon myself. Now that FMC's only take one grounding test per turn that -3 modifier to grounding tests from the traktor kannon is REALLY helpful for grounding them.
Second best imo is the kustom mega-kannon, because it's good at killing everything, including av. Plus you can insta-gib stuff like paladins, which I fight a lot...soooooo I'm slightly biased.
Kustom Mega Kannons all the way. Put a Mega Armoured HQ with them to discourage assaults and even move and shoot if you feel like it. Add a Mek to eat challenges.
dont even know where to begin.......22 pages of orkiness!! thats my kinda of love. i have a question to add. what is the best way to play against centurions? any and all ideas are greatly appreciated
Centurians don't have an invuln, so anything ap2 is gonna hurt. I think they are t5 with 2+ armor save though, so it'll be rough for the boys. But on a charge with a pk nob, I think they'll do OK. Look out for the attached IC, which will make the job more difficult.
I don't think you can get any of the formation or detachment special rules if you go Unbound at all, because the rule reads "unbound army" not unbound detachment.
Speaking of detachments, what are people thinking make the best detachment combos? I like the Ghaz Great Waaagh detachment for the epic Elite boost, but if I take two CADs I get one more elite and the only extra requirement is one more troops choice. Technically you need one more hq with two CADs but I don't count that as a requirement because there are soooooooooooooo many hq. I count that as a benefit for taking two CAD.
Here it is again but more straight forward:
Great Waaagh: 1HQ, 2Troops, 1Elite required. Plus 1HQ, 6Troops, 4Elite and the usual 3 fast and heavy
CADx2: 2HQ, 4Troops required. Plus 2HQ, 8Troops, 6Elite, and a whopping 6 of both fast and heavy
And then there are the special rules to consider, ObjectSec vs Deepstrike. For competition sake I'd have to say the ObSec is much better, but I really like the Deepstrike for fluffy reasons, so I've got my choice made depending on the nature of the game in this regard. On the other hand, I can fit so much more into 2Cad that I would like to deepstrike. So I'm left mixing and matching rules to accommodate my narrative, same as with the 4th ed codex.
I'm still interested in other combos tho. Any good ideas?
OrksesNevaLooz your right they dont have an inv. save but do have t5 and a 2+ save. they make lunch meat out of a boyz squad and one pc is never enough. would it be worth it to consider taking a warboss with mega armour and pc just to handle the centurions? thanks again
Sure could. Have the nob accept challenges while the boss goes to town. Back when I played works, I generally ran bosses with nobs. Don't underestimate boys though..... they'll often grab a wound or two...
DaKKaLAnce wrote: So what do you guys think about fielding a big Mek with a shokk attack gun on a bike? Would that be a good mobile long range support?
It's an interesting concept, a mobile SAG. But the gun itself has 60" range, so the "need" for it to be mobile isn't very great. It's useful for hiding the Big Mek a turn, then jumping out and blasting something.
I personally don't have any ork bikes yet, and i bought the new Big Mek plastic kit with the awesome snotling vaccuum. My current tricknology with this guy is him in a looted wagon, along with 8 lootas, a mek with KMB, and a Mega Armor big mek with a KFF. The mega armor gives S&P to the unit, so the looted wagon can tool around 6" and all the lootas & the SAG can fire normally.
I don't get why so many people think kustom mega kannons are good. 30 pts per BS3 S8 AP2 shot is a very bad investment no matter how you look at it.
Lobbas seem to be the best by a wide margin. They got significantly cheaper, and can taken in batteries of 5. I think one in any list will be great because ironically new Orks seem like they aren't that good at killing masses infantry. 5 with 3 ammo runts is 1 pt less than a thunderfire cannon.
herpguy wrote: I don't get why so many people think kustom mega kannons are good. 30 pts per BS3 S8 AP2 shot is a very bad investment no matter how you look at it.
Lobbas seem to be the best by a wide margin. They got significantly cheaper, and can taken in batteries of 5. I think one in any list will be great because ironically new Orks seem like they aren't that good at killing masses infantry. 5 with 3 ammo runts is 1 pt less than a thunderfire cannon.
That's a small blast shot... basically you're looking at a Plasma cannon w/ +1 S on a T7 2W gun. Using the grot crew and cover right, it's a very durable and very cheap TEQ/MEQ/Light Vehicle killer. I can take a full battery, plus lots of ablative wounds for 180 pts,
That's pretty cheap for that sort of killing power.
herpguy wrote: I don't get why so many people think kustom mega kannons are good. 30 pts per BS3 S8 AP2 shot is a very bad investment no matter how you look at it.
Lobbas seem to be the best by a wide margin. They got significantly cheaper, and can taken in batteries of 5. I think one in any list will be great because ironically new Orks seem like they aren't that good at killing masses infantry. 5 with 3 ammo runts is 1 pt less than a thunderfire cannon.
That's a small blast shot... basically you're looking at a Plasma cannon w/ +1 S on a T7 2W gun. Using the grot crew and cover right, it's a very durable and very cheap TEQ/MEQ/Light Vehicle killer. I can take a full battery, plus lots of ablative wounds for 180 pts,
That's pretty cheap for that sort of killing power.
The leadership 5 is the biggest issue. You can slap an HQ mek in there to make them LD7 but thats just bringing a lousy LD to a meh LD, and you dont get mob rule chart since every model needs it not just one.
Thats why im reluctant to field any of the new guns. The kannons or lobbas are so cheap and durable nobody wants to hit them - the traktor or KMK are nasty enough, even if they are still cheap, that people WILL want to shoot them. They dont take much to clear off when you actually want to clear them off. The fact that theyre nigh immune to anti infantry weaponry is why theyre so resilient, shoot anti tank or anti heavy infantry and they'll melt.
I almost never lose my guns unless im getting tabled. And thats because my opponent doesnt want to shoot his nasty guns at an 18pt model instead of my bikers or 'ard boyz or MANz. Im certain if i beefed up their damage (and nearly doubled the cost) they would be shot at in a heartbeat, cause i know i would.
The thing is that lobbas will pretty much be able to take shots each and every turn due to being barrage. Ammo runts help to reroll the crucial scatter. Lobbas can also be hidden behind LoS and be fine. Kustom mega kannons need to have line of sight which exposes you and lets your enemies hide. Once you start taking wounds you're one failed Ld5 leadership test from losing all your gunz. Plus I really don't think that adding points by 67% for AP2 is worth it either. Orks should never rely on ap2 to hurt 2+ enemies. If you try to play that game other armies will beat you in that efficiency contest every time.
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Vineheart01 wrote: The leadership 5 is the biggest issue. You can slap an HQ mek in there to make them LD7 but thats just bringing a lousy LD to a meh LD, and you dont get mob rule chart since every model needs it not just one.
Thats why im reluctant to field any of the new guns. The kannons or lobbas are so cheap and durable nobody wants to hit them - the traktor or KMK are nasty enough, even if they are still cheap, that people WILL want to shoot them. They dont take much to clear off when you actually want to clear them off. The fact that theyre nigh immune to anti infantry weaponry is why theyre so resilient, shoot anti tank or anti heavy infantry and they'll melt.
I almost never lose my guns unless im getting tabled. And thats because my opponent doesnt want to shoot his nasty guns at an 18pt model instead of my bikers or 'ard boyz or MANz. Im certain if i beefed up their damage (and nearly doubled the cost) they would be shot at in a heartbeat, cause i know i would.
Exactly. A battery of lobbas or kannons (I think lobbas are better) will be able to safely sit back and be safe all game. They're just not on an enemy's priority list but they should consistently do damage. Plus T7 scares most opponents away into thinking they're too hard to kill, when in actuality with LD5 it's not a hard unit to erase.
Lobbas are really good too, it just depends on the army your facing - if you know what your facing. I face primarily gk's and necrons so I face a lot of dk's, flyers, and termies (usually paladins), so that's why I'm partial to the kmk and especially the traktor. In a tournament setting I likely wouldn't use kmk's since I wouldn't know what I'd be facing, though I definitely would still field traktor kannons, but to each his own.
What do you guys do about psycher heavy armies? I played a game of 7th against Eldar Jetseer and it was basically a free round of shooting, etc for the Eldar since I didn't bring a weirdboy.
Also, am I right in assuming that two psychers are all we can bring anyway? And that they eat up two of the HQ slots? And that they aren't going to ever compete with psycher heavy armies?
matphat wrote: What do you guys do about psycher heavy armies? I played a game of 7th against Eldar Jetseer and it was basically a free round of shooting, etc for the Eldar since I didn't bring a weirdboy.
Also, am I right in assuming that two psychers are all we can bring anyway? And that they eat up two of the HQ slots? And that they aren't going to ever compete with psycher heavy armies?
How do we approach this?
By using more bodies than they can kill and firing more shots than they can save. But quite frankly, unless you ally in something, orks have no access to proper psychic defense vs armies built around warp charge generation. Seer councils, daemons, grey knights, they will all have more WC:s than you can deny anyhow. A weirdboy and some luck can yield amazing results, but only on the offense.
Edit - If you do want to counter them, the single best anti-psyker star weapon in the game is a grey knights stormraven. Goodbye council, goodbye screamers.
The way GW has done the deny the witch rules in any edition has always seemed unfair to me. Its basically nonexistant, in fact its harder now, unless you are one of two maybe 3 races that are able to spam psykers and/or have BIG psykers.
My weirdboy went against an eldar player that doesnt even really focus on psykers, but he still has a couple for presciencing his wraiths or fireprisms. Just because of the amount of warps he generated he was able to deny me my +1 attack multiple times by throwing the bucket at it, which was more than quadruple what i had harnessed after throwing almost all my dice to get it. Because of the value of warbosses, big meks, or painboyz i cannot afford more than 2 weirdboy, while he can easily field 2-4 psykers.
I understand that in theory a more powerful "wizard" would be able to nullify a lesser "wizard" majorirty of the time. But in a game setting its pretty unfair to allow such powerful abilities to 2-3 armies without even trying, while same said armies can prevent anybody else from attempting to use them.
Btw, my weirdboy only got two spells off in the 3 turns he was alive. That was Frazzle, as he didnt have any dice left after denying both my Warpath and Killbolt, and it didnt even do anything since i missed >.<
Vineheart01 wrote: The way GW has done the deny the witch rules in any edition has always seemed unfair to me. Its basically nonexistant, in fact its harder now, unless you are one of two maybe 3 races that are able to spam psykers and/or have BIG psykers.
It's not meant to be fair, it's meant to forge a narrative. Have you read any of GW's books. The narratives are that the orks lose.
Vineheart01 wrote: The way GW has done the deny the witch rules in any edition has always seemed unfair to me. Its basically nonexistant, in fact its harder now, unless you are one of two maybe 3 races that are able to spam psykers and/or have BIG psykers.
It's not meant to be fair, it's meant to forge a narrative. Have you read any of GW's books. The narratives are that the orks lose.
Orks along with nids and chaos. Oh wait, I think I see a pattern here....
Vineheart01 wrote: The way GW has done the deny the witch rules in any edition has always seemed unfair to me. Its basically nonexistant, in fact its harder now, unless you are one of two maybe 3 races that are able to spam psykers and/or have BIG psykers.
It's not meant to be fair, it's meant to forge a narrative. Have you read any of GW's books. The narratives are that the orks lose.
Orks along with nids and chaos. Oh wait, I think I see a pattern here....
Need some help with my Orky hammer unit. So I am moving away from Nob Bikers as support for my Warboss, and deciding between either normal bikers or DeffKopptaz.
Guts of the unit looks like this:
Warboss
PK, Lukky Stikk, Bike
Painboy
Bike
Then either another Warboss with the Headwompa, or a Big Mek with KFF bike and the Headwompa (basically the same price as eachother)
Both units have their advantages/disadvantages.
Warbike: cheap, plentiful, have more attacks than Kopptaz in assault, better cover save when jinking but limited firepower that just stacks with the already good anti infantry that Orks bring.
Can take a Nob to eat up to 2 S9 or lower attacks (or 1 Smash attack) in a challenge against things like MC's so that the Headwompa and S10 PK can do their thing.
DeffKopptaz: cheaper than bikes on a per-wound basis (15/wound vs 18/wound). Access to better firepower and a free upgrade (TL S8 or S8 AP2 for taking out transports or buildings so that the unit can assault the occupants). No dangerous terrain tests unless they actually land on the terrain.
Most importantly they provide Scout to the entire unit, which almost guarantees a T2 assault.
Lower jink save (4+ instead of 3+ for turboboosting).
No access to a Nob, so can't soak up those few extra wounds.
So there you go, what should I take? Also, should I go with a 2nd Warboss to take the Headwompa or a Big Mek with KFF and Headwompa? I mean, the real tradeoff is 1 attack and WS6 over WS5 (assuming the Lukky Stikk is still in play).
Deffkoptas are a bad choice for a hammer unit and should not even be considered. While they have the advantage of scout that is only good for a biker boss delivery method, the unit itself is not suited for assault. Deffkoptas should be looking for flank attacks on vehicles and turbo boosting on objectives while avoiding combat altogether. Take those points you used to spend on biker nobs and put them into a biker painboy with a whole lot of warbikers.
If the Buzzsaw was either a Killsaw or only costed 10-15pts rather than 25, then i'd consider them an assault unit. A S7 AP2 attack on the charge without armorbane isnt going to reliably kill jack when its only 3 attacks. Assuming theyre alive, since if you sink that many points into them theyre bound to become a bullet magnet without the durability to survive it.
Also if the game was truely a "narrative" then space marine armies would be composed of a single squad versus the number of boyz we usually field. Composed of 3-6 marines and a sergeant or MAYBE a captain against 300+ orks and win without a single casualty.
This is the game, not the lore. There are numerous flaws comparing the game to the fluff because it would make the game utterly unplayable.
I could see Big Shoota Deffkoptas being a retinue for a KFF Bike Mek when the purpose of the Mek is to provide cover for Battlewagons, but not an assault unit.
More Dakka wrote: Need some help with my Orky hammer unit. So I am moving away from Nob Bikers as support for my Warboss, and deciding between either normal bikers or DeffKopptaz.
Guts of the unit looks like this:
Warboss
PK, Lukky Stikk, Bike
Painboy
Bike
Then either another Warboss with the Headwompa, or a Big Mek with KFF bike and the Headwompa (basically the same price as eachother)
Both units have their advantages/disadvantages.
Warbike: cheap, plentiful, have more attacks than Kopptaz in assault, better cover save when jinking but limited firepower that just stacks with the already good anti infantry that Orks bring.
Can take a Nob to eat up to 2 S9 or lower attacks (or 1 Smash attack) in a challenge against things like MC's so that the Headwompa and S10 PK can do their thing.
DeffKopptaz: cheaper than bikes on a per-wound basis (15/wound vs 18/wound). Access to better firepower and a free upgrade (TL S8 or S8 AP2 for taking out transports or buildings so that the unit can assault the occupants). No dangerous terrain tests unless they actually land on the terrain.
Most importantly they provide Scout to the entire unit, which almost guarantees a T2 assault.
Lower jink save (4+ instead of 3+ for turboboosting).
No access to a Nob, so can't soak up those few extra wounds.
So there you go, what should I take? Also, should I go with a 2nd Warboss to take the Headwompa or a Big Mek with KFF and Headwompa? I mean, the real tradeoff is 1 attack and WS6 over WS5 (assuming the Lukky Stikk is still in play).
I've been running this with 15 bikes, PK Nob, 2 Warbosses, 1 Painboy , & Zhadsnark from forgeworld...... Stupidly good, and way better then the old Nob Biker list that I use to run.
mrfantastical wrote:
2) 3 big meks, 1 Warboss, & 1 wierdboy master level 2
*1 big Mek must be warlord
*warlord gets "kunning but brutal" warlord trait
*d3 units get acute senses & outflank
*add +1 to sieze the initiative roll
Been seriously thinking about how to take advantage of this. I keep thinking about outflanking a big mek in MA attached to a Kustom mega Kannon Mek gun unit, or BW full of Burnas.
Outflanking units of 30 boyz or MANZ in a trukk and just spook people with them. Tankbustas in a trukk or burnas could do good work too. Flame a troop choice off an objective
fedorarogue wrote: Outflanking units of 30 boyz or MANZ in a trukk and just spook people with them. Tankbustas in a trukk or burnas could do good work too. Flame a troop choice off an objective
fedorarogue wrote: Outflanking units of 30 boyz or MANZ in a trukk and just spook people with them. Tankbustas in a trukk or burnas could do good work too. Flame a troop choice off an objective
how are you out flanking that stuff?
By using the 'Mogrok's Bossboys' formation from Sanctus Reach: the Red Waaagh!
fedorarogue wrote: Outflanking units of 30 boyz or MANZ in a trukk and just spook people with them. Tankbustas in a trukk or burnas could do good work too. Flame a troop choice off an objective
how are you out flanking that stuff?
By using the 'Mogrok's Bossboys' formation from Sanctus Reach: the Red Waaagh!
how is the sanctus reach? would you recommend getting it? and could you give an overview of it please?
fedorarogue wrote: Outflanking units of 30 boyz or MANZ in a trukk and just spook people with them. Tankbustas in a trukk or burnas could do good work too. Flame a troop choice off an objective
how are you out flanking that stuff?
By using the 'Mogrok's Bossboys' formation from Sanctus Reach: the Red Waaagh!
how is the sanctus reach? would you recommend getting it? and could you give an overview of it please?
Haven't finished reading the background, but so far it seems OK. Not great, not terrible.
Lots of special missions which I doubt I will ever use.
Not many datasheets and the Imperial ones seem distinctly better than the Ork ones. Mogrok's Bossboys is literally the only really useful thing orks get.
Updated Planetstrike rules seem OK, not much different to the previous ones.
More Dakka wrote: Need some help with my Orky hammer unit. So I am moving away from Nob Bikers as support for my Warboss, and deciding between either normal bikers or DeffKopptaz.
Guts of the unit looks like this:
Warboss
PK, Lukky Stikk, Bike
Painboy
Bike
Then either another Warboss with the Headwompa, or a Big Mek with KFF bike and the Headwompa (basically the same price as eachother)
Both units have their advantages/disadvantages.
Warbike: cheap, plentiful, have more attacks than Kopptaz in assault, better cover save when jinking but limited firepower that just stacks with the already good anti infantry that Orks bring.
Can take a Nob to eat up to 2 S9 or lower attacks (or 1 Smash attack) in a challenge against things like MC's so that the Headwompa and S10 PK can do their thing.
DeffKopptaz: cheaper than bikes on a per-wound basis (15/wound vs 18/wound). Access to better firepower and a free upgrade (TL S8 or S8 AP2 for taking out transports or buildings so that the unit can assault the occupants). No dangerous terrain tests unless they actually land on the terrain.
Most importantly they provide Scout to the entire unit, which almost guarantees a T2 assault.
Lower jink save (4+ instead of 3+ for turboboosting).
No access to a Nob, so can't soak up those few extra wounds.
So there you go, what should I take? Also, should I go with a 2nd Warboss to take the Headwompa or a Big Mek with KFF and Headwompa? I mean, the real tradeoff is 1 attack and WS6 over WS5 (assuming the Lukky Stikk is still in play).
In 6 i've used 5 Deffkoptas + bikerboss to great effect. They were a cheaper, more mobile alternative to biker nobz. Don't underestimate that 12' scoutmove. They're even cheaper now and can have rokkits that don't cost you more! That's still a very strong and viable unit. And they'll work.
Note however that they're not supposed to act like biker boyz or nob bikers. They can't take that much punishment and don't hit that hard and they're more dependant on blos. But they're significantly more mobile with a reliable turn 2 charge since koptas can turbo-boost 24', you can create a further-spread chain from your warboss that goes 12' or 18'. And they come to be cheaper. That's important and makes them shine in the "one of the threats" role.
I'm not sure if adding a biker painboy is a good idea though. If you make them too expensive they probably won't work.
I've been running this with 15 bikes, PK Nob, 2 Warbosses, 1 Painboy , & Zhadsnark from forgeworld...... Stupidly good, and way better then the old Nob Biker list that I use to run.
19 scouting bikes is something you can't ignore.
how did you make em scouting? am i missing something?
Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.
He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.
Thats what makes him balanced. He has no invul (under previous rules he had no invul i mean) and has less armor for some odd reason even though he has a fancier bike. If he had the invul and 4+ armor on top of what else he has, he'd be a bit broken.
I dunno i kinda wanna stay away from the FW orks for abit because im seeing a TON of rule issues with either 7th edition conflicts or new ork dex conflicts. Such as the 1-3 Deffdredd troop units. The entry specifically says "Note they do not score" when in 7th they can....but codex trumps brb >.< even though im sure they can score now, it needs to be changed.
And a lot of warlord traits are pointless now because of the "everything scores" thing, so new traits are needed.
Vineheart01 wrote: I dunno i kinda wanna stay away from the FW orks for abit because im seeing a TON of rule issues with either 7th edition conflicts or new ork dex conflicts. Such as the 1-3 Deffdredd troop units. The entry specifically says "Note they do not score" when in 7th they can....but codex trumps brb >.< even though im sure they can score now, it needs to be changed.
And a lot of warlord traits are pointless now because of the "everything scores" thing, so new traits are needed.
You're talking about the Dread Mob list; he's not even allowed to be taken in that list.
His warlord trait lets bikes be troops as well - doesn't add in scoring. Troops makes them that, so the warlord trait works just fine.
The only minor thing is that he has the Waaagh rule and not 'ere we go which is rather different now. His own unit can't benefit from waaagh or 'ere we go but the other units can. He is written as a warboss, so I could see them adding 'ere we go and keeping Waaagh with him in it's current 7th ed form.
defense lawyer, eh? hopefully I won't ever have to play against you...
Now I have yet to use one. Anyone have any advice?
In a non-tournament setting, use the IA8 stompa builda if you can, the one in the book totally blows.
Also, put a squad of lootas in it, with 3 meks, and a big mek with Kff and fixer uppers, and he'll be one tough nugget to pinch.
Tactics: stay with the rest of you army and shoot everything at everything. when something gets too close, charge it in, as long as the target is not high strength AND CC oriented
Sorry for all the stupid edits, posting from my phone
NamelessBard wrote: Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.
He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.
Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.
He's pretty good.
And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.
So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.
NamelessBard wrote: Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.
He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.
Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.
He's pretty good.
And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.
So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.
Skilled Rider gives you an auto-pass on dangerous terrain tests and +1 to your jink. Turbo-boosting has no effect on jinking in this edition. All you have to do with a warbiker unit with Zhadsnark is say "they jink" when they get shot at, before to hits are rolled. You have to snapfire next round, but hey - all your bikes receive a 2+ cover (4+ jink, +1 for having ork warbikes, +1 from skilled rider). All except Zhadsnark, who gets a 3+. Thank god Focus Fire is gone though, just make sure he's not up front and you're set.
NamelessBard wrote: Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.
He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.
Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.
He's pretty good.
And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.
So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.
Skilled Rider gives you an auto-pass on dangerous terrain tests and +1 to your jink. Turbo-boosting has no effect on jinking in this edition. All you have to do with a warbiker unit with Zhadsnark is say "they jink" when they get shot at, before to hits are rolled. You have to snapfire next round, but hey - all your bikes receive a 2+ cover (4+ jink, +1 for having ork warbikes, +1 from skilled rider). All except Zhadsnark, who gets a 3+. Thank god Focus Fire is gone though, just make sure he's not up front and you're set.
NamelessBard wrote: Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.
He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.
Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.
He's pretty good.
And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.
So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.
Skilled Rider gives you an auto-pass on dangerous terrain tests and +1 to your jink. Turbo-boosting has no effect on jinking in this edition. All you have to do with a warbiker unit with Zhadsnark is say "they jink" when they get shot at, before to hits are rolled. You have to snapfire next round, but hey - all your bikes receive a 2+ cover (4+ jink, +1 for having ork warbikes, +1 from skilled rider). All except Zhadsnark, who gets a 3+. Thank god Focus Fire is gone though, just make sure he's not up front and you're set.
Turbo boosting does have an effect on ork warbikes, it gives them +1 to their cover save if you turboboost. You do not get it automatically when jinking (you technically get this bonus even without jinking).
And skilled rider does apply to the unit as long as one model has it.
NamelessBard wrote: Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.
He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.
Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.
He's pretty good.
And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.
So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.
Skilled Rider gives you an auto-pass on dangerous terrain tests and +1 to your jink. Turbo-boosting has no effect on jinking in this edition. All you have to do with a warbiker unit with Zhadsnark is say "they jink" when they get shot at, before to hits are rolled. You have to snapfire next round, but hey - all your bikes receive a 2+ cover (4+ jink, +1 for having ork warbikes, +1 from skilled rider). All except Zhadsnark, who gets a 3+. Thank god Focus Fire is gone though, just make sure he's not up front and you're set.
That's awesome, but does he give skilled rider to the unit? Or is it one of those rules that if one has it, they all have it.
The latter. So he has to survive, but then again - he's a delivery method. Once you scout up and close in on round 1, you fire all you got if you had first turn you don't have to jink). Next turn, you jink before the enemy fires (even against tau - rather let them shoot you at low BS and snapshoot yourself than not jinking just to shoot more later. You want to assault next turn, so let them waste markerlights on ignore cover), and get ready to charge. If you feel you can take the overwatch (and you probably want to multi-assault) on a 3+ cover, you can split Zhad off to go do something else (Maybe TANK SHOCK 24", SINCE HE'S AWESOME AND CAN DO THAT). This lets you re-roll a charge dice on your other bikes, since he doesn't have 'ere we go.
My point with this was - Zhad is important to keep alive - but only crucial until you reach the enemy lines. Then you can detach your characters and go crazy if you want to.
NamelessBard wrote: Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.
He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.
Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.
He's pretty good.
And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.
So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.
Skilled Rider gives you an auto-pass on dangerous terrain tests and +1 to your jink. Turbo-boosting has no effect on jinking in this edition. All you have to do with a warbiker unit with Zhadsnark is say "they jink" when they get shot at, before to hits are rolled. You have to snapfire next round, but hey - all your bikes receive a 2+ cover (4+ jink, +1 for having ork warbikes, +1 from skilled rider). All except Zhadsnark, who gets a 3+. Thank god Focus Fire is gone though, just make sure he's not up front and you're set.
Turbo boosting does have an effect on ork warbikes, it gives them +1 to their cover save if you turboboost. You do not get it automatically when jinking (you technically get this bonus even without jinking).
And skilled rider does apply to the unit as long as one model has it.
haha, bummer, I totally missed that it's TB exclusive. I guess I could blame it on my main biker force being White Scars, but dang. You'd still want to Turbo round one I suppose.
NamelessBard wrote: Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.
He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.
Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.
He's pretty good.
And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.
So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.
Skilled Rider gives you an auto-pass on dangerous terrain tests and +1 to your jink. Turbo-boosting has no effect on jinking in this edition. All you have to do with a warbiker unit with Zhadsnark is say "they jink" when they get shot at, before to hits are rolled. You have to snapfire next round, but hey - all your bikes receive a 2+ cover (4+ jink, +1 for having ork warbikes, +1 from skilled rider). All except Zhadsnark, who gets a 3+. Thank god Focus Fire is gone though, just make sure he's not up front and you're set.
I believe Ork bikers get a +1 to their cover save when they turbo boost, in place of the 4+ cover they used to get by default. So, they normally get a 3+ jink if they boost, and with the skilled rider, they get a 2+ instead.
NamelessBard wrote: Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.
He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.
Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.
He's pretty good.
And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.
So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.
Skilled Rider gives you an auto-pass on dangerous terrain tests and +1 to your jink. Turbo-boosting has no effect on jinking in this edition. All you have to do with a warbiker unit with Zhadsnark is say "they jink" when they get shot at, before to hits are rolled. You have to snapfire next round, but hey - all your bikes receive a 2+ cover (4+ jink, +1 for having ork warbikes, +1 from skilled rider). All except Zhadsnark, who gets a 3+. Thank god Focus Fire is gone though, just make sure he's not up front and you're set.
I believe Ork bikers get a +1 to their cover save when they turbo boost, in place of the 4+ cover they used to get by default. So, they normally get a 3+ jink if they boost, and with the skilled rider, they get a 2+ instead.
Aye, it's been stated in the posts above yours already - I got carried away and remembered the rule incorrectly.
NamelessBard wrote: Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.
He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.
Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.
He's pretty good.
And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.
So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.
Skilled Rider gives you an auto-pass on dangerous terrain tests and +1 to your jink. Turbo-boosting has no effect on jinking in this edition. All you have to do with a warbiker unit with Zhadsnark is say "they jink" when they get shot at, before to hits are rolled. You have to snapfire next round, but hey - all your bikes receive a 2+ cover (4+ jink, +1 for having ork warbikes, +1 from skilled rider). All except Zhadsnark, who gets a 3+. Thank god Focus Fire is gone though, just make sure he's not up front and you're set.
I believe Ork bikers get a +1 to their cover save when they turbo boost, in place of the 4+ cover they used to get by default. So, they normally get a 3+ jink if they boost, and with the skilled rider, they get a 2+ instead.
Wow, just wow. Or if you get night fighting turn 1 you get 2+ cover without jinking, this list just became my answer to IG, and maybe TAU & Eldar.
NamelessBard wrote: Zhadsnark can make a unit of bikes he joins scout. He also gives them skilled rider for 2+ cover saves during turbo boost. Add in a Mek with the lucky stikk and enjoy.
He's also a warboss and has the Waaagh special rule.
Finally he has a PK that goes at initiative.
He's pretty good.
And he makes warbikers troops if he's the warlord.
So skilled rider gives you a +1 cover while turbo-boosting, and it can be bestowed to the unit? Are you sure? I don't have the 7th BRB yet, and that seems really good.
Skilled Rider gives you an auto-pass on dangerous terrain tests and +1 to your jink. Turbo-boosting has no effect on jinking in this edition. All you have to do with a warbiker unit with Zhadsnark is say "they jink" when they get shot at, before to hits are rolled. You have to snapfire next round, but hey - all your bikes receive a 2+ cover (4+ jink, +1 for having ork warbikes, +1 from skilled rider). All except Zhadsnark, who gets a 3+. Thank god Focus Fire is gone though, just make sure he's not up front and you're set.
I believe Ork bikers get a +1 to their cover save when they turbo boost, in place of the 4+ cover they used to get by default. So, they normally get a 3+ jink if they boost, and with the skilled rider, they get a 2+ instead.
Wow, just wow. Or if you get night fighting turn 1 you get 2+ cover without jinking, this list just became my answer to IG, and maybe TAU & Eldar.
1: Take Necron allies led by Imotekh the Stormlord.
2: ...
3: Profit.
obsidiankatana wrote: Tau, IG, and Eldar all have easy access to ignore cover weaponry. I would not depend on it too heavily.
Which is why a proper bike star should tote around the Mega Force Field, for those nasty Ap4 and below ignore cover shots. But yes, bikes are obviously vulnerable to ignore cover, which is why you krump those bits first.
Anyone else getting the feeling that normal Boyz aren't worth it in a list other than Green Tide?
For an Ork Warband detachment that doesn't get obsec 3 units of 10 grots is plenty to scrabble around getting objectives, meanwhile all the other slots are full of great units (tank bustaz, Manz, bikes, buggies, Kommandoz, Stormboys etc etc).
Normal Boyz couldn't get across the board in 6th and nothing much has changed in that department in 7th, why not just take the best of the best?
I'm still struggling with the old philosophy of boys before toys but with the new codex and 7th ed making everything scoring I honestly think it's time to go toys before boys. At first I was thinking I'll just make my third troop choice a basic grot unit just to get the third HQ choice. Then I started thinking why not make all my troops grots, they'll just sit at the back capturing objectives where there isn't much conflict and I'll have a lot more points to spend on everything else.
Boyz are still very viable in Battle Wagons. They need to be at full squads of 20 though otherwise they just fizzle out and die to quick. They need to have to the extra bodies in case they roll a 4,5 or 6 on the Mob rule or else they are boned. 3x 20 squads are potent and will take a while to chew threw once behind enemy lines. If your running some bikes as well you can charge them in with the 20 unit and use the biker nob to challenge things. He will be better vs naked Sgt's or Power fists.
Has anyone tried actually fielding the "Council of Waaagh!" formation from the Ghazzy supplement? I find the sheer, shameless excess of the whole thing to be immensely appealing- I'd love to hear some actionable intel from the front.
Then I started thinking why not make all my troops grots, they'll just sit at the back capturing objectives where there isn't much conflict and I'll have a lot more points to spend on everything else.
I had a similar thought earlier today. If my compulsary troop choices are grots, it leaves me points to field Tankbusters instead of regular boyz.
DaisyWondercow wrote: Has anyone tried actually fielding the "Council of Waaagh!" formation from the Ghazzy supplement? I find the sheer, shameless excess of the whole thing to be immensely appealing- I'd love to hear some actionable intel from the front.
Besides my bikermob, I'm working on a Waaagh! council transported in an ork battlefortress. It'll be interesting, just have to build the damn vehicle first
Sinji wrote: Boyz are still very viable in Battle Wagons. They need to be at full squads of 20 though otherwise they just fizzle out and die to quick. They need to have to the extra bodies in case they roll a 4,5 or 6 on the Mob rule or else they are boned. 3x 20 squads are potent and will take a while to chew threw once behind enemy lines. If your running some bikes as well you can charge them in with the 20 unit and use the biker nob to challenge things. He will be better vs naked Sgt's or Power fists.
The problem I have with that is I would much rather spend my Heavy Support slots on Mek Guns & Lootas otherwise my army is left fighting without long ranged support.
On the subject of Mek Guns, I love my Traktor kannons.
Last game I played with traktor kannons they didn't kill a single thing the entire game, yet they more than paid for themselves as it pretty much set up a no fly zone over 2/3 of the board.
More Dakka wrote: Anyone else getting the feeling that normal Boyz aren't worth it in a list other than Green Tide?
For an Ork Warband detachment that doesn't get obsec 3 units of 10 grots is plenty to scrabble around getting objectives, meanwhile all the other slots are full of great units (tank bustaz, Manz, bikes, buggies, Kommandoz, Stormboys etc etc).
Normal Boyz couldn't get across the board in 6th and nothing much has changed in that department in 7th, why not just take the best of the best?
6th for me started the death of the Boyz feeling, and 7th made them worse. My one hope was that the new codex would drop their price to keep them competitive, and no. I do agree that the green tide breathes some life into the Boyz, but outside of that formation there are just too many things in the book that runs better, cheaper, faster, or is more survivable then Boyz now.
My boyz are fine, and im only bringing 70 in a 2000pt game. 1 30man blob for a weirdboy unit and 2 20mans, all sluggachoppa sprinting down the lanes.
Theyre fine because theyre not getting shot at. The warbikers, MANz missiles, and blitzabomma is lol. 20 sluggachoppas slam into something its going to get hurt. God forbid my weirdboy in his 30man unit gets the +1 attack spell (5 attacks each on the charge....zomg...2base +1 dual CCW +1 Charge +1 Spell ftw)
My only issue with them is the vulnerability to fear. That irritates me. Slammed into a big bug and failed the fear check, even with 5 attacks each i barely did anything since i needed 5s to hit and to wound. Sad part is, that wasnt even a nasty big bug - was just a Mawloc that scattered right infront of my boyz so i charged it lol.
DaisyWondercow wrote: Has anyone tried actually fielding the "Council of Waaagh!" formation from the Ghazzy supplement? I find the sheer, shameless excess of the whole thing to be immensely appealing- I'd love to hear some actionable intel from the front.
I have but not in a normal game. I went with 2 mega armour warbosses, the MKFF and 10 nobz with 3 PKs and 3 BC in a battlewagon.
Had I realized that rampage works in every phase it would have been a lot better.
The until killed: Azreal, 10 terminators, Corbulo, 2 librarians. Mephistan was all that was left.
Sinji wrote: Boyz are still very viable in Battle Wagons. They need to be at full squads of 20 though otherwise they just fizzle out and die to quick. They need to have to the extra bodies in case they roll a 4,5 or 6 on the Mob rule or else they are boned. 3x 20 squads are potent and will take a while to chew threw once behind enemy lines. If your running some bikes as well you can charge them in with the 20 unit and use the biker nob to challenge things. He will be better vs naked Sgt's or Power fists.
The problem I have with that is I would much rather spend my Heavy Support slots on Mek Guns & Lootas otherwise my army is left fighting without long ranged support.
On the subject of Mek Guns, I love my Traktor kannons.
Last game I played with traktor kannons they didn't kill a single thing the entire game, yet they more than paid for themselves as it pretty much set up a no fly zone over 2/3 of the board.
Then take a Blitz Brigade. 5 Battle Wagons with Scout and you can keep your HS slots for something else. Or just run Dual CAD. 4 Battle Wagons and 4 Squads of Shoota Boyz in the Battle Wagons and you still have 2 HS slots left to fill and all basic troops covered.
I am quite partial to the Blitz Brigade though. The free scout move is prure gold. The Shoota Boyz inside will always be in range of something and then turn 2 you should be in combat even if your Wagons were popped. I'm findimg my Battle Wagons aren't exploding as often as before and even my Trukk's have been holding together a bit better as well. So of you scout to mid table even if your going second and a Wagon blows up there is 12" you don't need to foot slog. If you jump out of the wrecked wagon 3" you have managed to cover 15" of ground. Any guys that do end up on foot can jump in behind surviving wagons in your turn for some cover or LOS blocking mobile cover. Turn 2-3 has always been where the true magic of the Orks has been in the last 17 years I have played Orks and it hasn't changed in 7th ed even with the new codex.
A unit of nobz is at least 54 points wasted, for just 61 points more you can get scout on all your battlewagons and one additional battlewagon for picking up units, capturing objectives or just randomly tank-shocking stuff.
I see little reason for using a nob unit solely to get a fourth battlewagon.
Jidmah wrote: A unit of nobz is at least 54 points wasted, for just 61 points more you can get scout on all your battlewagons and one additional battlewagon for picking up units, capturing objectives or just randomly tank-shocking stuff.
I see little reason for using a nob unit solely to get a fourth battlewagon.
Totally agree. If you need to take a battlewagon with your HS filled with them, go with Blitz Brigade. If you want one but got your HS filled with other units, might as well get another CAD. (Unless it's a rare case where you try to run on minimum troops and one HQ)
I dont even see using MANz to get that 4th battlewagon worth it. I find them to be too easily removed when you buy them in numbers worth bringing inside a battlewagon since now theyre a big enough threat to draw big gun attention.
You could, however, buy the BW for the minimal 3 MANz and not put them in it, and instead buy a trukk with whatever unit you just put in that BW and start both units outside of the transports. Now you got 4 BWs and a MANz missile. That trukk and BW cannot flat out that turn since they embarked something, but better than footslogging lol.
Issue here is do you have enough points lol, as 3 MANz is 120pts bare and i like to slap a BP and Killsaws on the character one (15pts more). More expensive than bareboned minimal regular nobz, but at least this unit is a real threat and can kill things wheras the minimal footnobz wont do anything more than draw a couple S8 shots.
I've got a bit of an issue with target saturation and list building. I wanna try and fit a unit of Warbikers into my ork list. Only, the last time I tried them they got ripped apart by an IG Wyvren mortar. Now, I know the Wyvren is meant to gun down light infantry and such, so a wyvren squad should be gunning down units of orks....the thing is, the Warbikers were in a battlewagon force. They were the only things not in transports. That's my big issue with warbikers right now, if I take them and my opponent has anti-infantry weapons that ignore cover, the warbikers will be the only target for those weapons.
The question I want to ask is, if I wanna use warbikers what other units should I have in that same warbiker army? My original plan was a kind of light deathstar with KFF mek and Warboss inside this big warbiker blob, I'm really worried about things like Manticores and Wyvrens which are going to ignore my cover anyways. What other units should I run if I'm going to run warbikers? Should I just try and focus on alpha-striking those enemy guns off the table? Is that even possible with orks?
Loose outline (probably a lot more Trukk Boyz in the mix), but you get the idea. Basically throw so many trukks at someone, using the Trukk Boyz to shield your MANz trukks and Mek(s), that it's impossible to stop em all?
Contemplating trying it using my old looted wagons as trukks. I think I have 8 total laying around...
Wyverns are unlikely to be taken out by anything an ork army can do in the first turn. Best way to deal with them is to use the large biker base size and some careful positioning to minimise the number of hits and take a painboy to help soak wounds.
Hellhounds will die to Lootas and rokkit spam, with a bit of luck.
Leman Russ Eradicators are pretty much immune to ork shooting until they can get round behind them.
In order to draw first-turn ignore-cover fire from your bikers, you need units which are an early game threat and vulnerable to similar weapons. Kommandos can infiltrate into some ruins or something, then go-to-ground for a 2+ cover save. A minimum-size kommando unit is difficult to kill with anything which doesn't ignore cover, cheap enough that it's not a huge waste when it does get killed and can carry a couple of special weapons which make it just enough of a threat that it can't be ignored.
all the guard AV 12 stuff will die in droves to tank bustas.... even wyveryns
15 pt guys with assault rokkit launchers that have tank hunters will EASILY do 3 hp of damage a turn (5 hits on average, 4+ to glance, 2.5 glances, +1.25 for the reroll, ~3.75 HP a turn)
heck, lobbas will hit their side armour of 10 if they are hidden out of sight
that being said, they are the best anti ork unit in game
Here's a list I worked out last night, so far I think it may be the closest to a tac list I've come up with. Let me know what you guys think, it comes in at 1500pts:
HQ
Bikerboss - da lucky stikk, pk
Painboy - bike
Painboy - bike
Troops
10 grots
10 grots
10 grots
Elites
3 MANz w/ 1 killsaw and bp - trukk
3 MANz w/ 1 killsaw and bp - trukk
3 MANz w/ 1 killsaw and bp - trukk
Fast attack
10 warbikers - nob w/ pk and bp
5 warbikers - nob w/ pk and bp
Heavy support
4 traktor kannons
4 lobbas
Fortification
adl w/ quad-gun
So I'll have one squad of grots manning the quad-gun while the others try to capture objectives in the backfield. Smaller biker squad will have one painboy and will mostly try and capture objectives and assault tanks and weakened squads when needed, while larger biker squad will have the boss and painboy, and try to back up the MANz. .
There's a thread on this, but it was based on SM and I didn't want to derail it:
Does anybody have ideas on taking a wraithknight down with our new ladz? I'm not a huge fan of rokkits (and big guns more-or-less equally so) in this case, since they still need a 4+ to wound after a 5+ (or 4+) to hit. And I think that boys squads with a pk would likely never make it there with the new rules
im autotaking 'eadwompa if i know im facing eldar. i dislike tailoring but that thing is nigh impossible for orks to kill unless they actually dedicate part of their army to do it, and even then its not that awesome.
Nothing sounds more thrilling than taking that gayass unit down in 1 swing
It's great because you can just throw it on to a Warboss with PK and get the best of both worlds for a meesily 20 points.
Don't forget to keep a Nob in the unit to give/accept a challenge, that way the WK has to slap at the Nob, eating up 2 wounds or 2 smash attack, then hit em back with the Eadwompa!
Only real issue is that it's Eadwompa OR Lukky Stikk, but you can always just take a 2nd warboss since they are so dirt cheap, or throw it on a Big Mek with KFF and Bike (just give him a squig to re-roll one miss).
Not only nobz but Warbosses and Biker nobz too. Only one that won't get insta killed by him is a Biker Boss. In saying that I find the Warboss PK to be the most reliable way to kill a WK. He will obviously need back up though. Some boyz to eat wounds and a nob with PK should be enough to take him down a peg a or 2.
So eadwompa missile with 10 boys in a trukk, nob+ pk, and boss wiv da wompa? Sounds really risky, super expensive, and horribly unlikely to work, but when it does....
yeah I think throwing something ridiculous like that together really helps to highlight all of the flaws in each of those strategies individually...
I agree a bikerboss is probably the best bet, and at least he won't just get kited the whole time, but throwing him with bob nikerz seems like a total waste, since the WK will just slap them all silly. Maybe bikerboyz to soak wounds since they're fast enough and cheaper than NBs? still seems like a big waste of points to me though
More Dakka wrote: Anyone else getting the feeling that normal Boyz aren't worth it in a list other than Green Tide?
For an Ork Warband detachment that doesn't get obsec 3 units of 10 grots is plenty to scrabble around getting objectives, meanwhile all the other slots are full of great units (tank bustaz, Manz, bikes, buggies, Kommandoz, Stormboys etc etc).
Normal Boyz couldn't get across the board in 6th and nothing much has changed in that department in 7th, why not just take the best of the best?
The problem with grots is that they're really overpriced for their stats. Conscripts cost the same but are +1s, +1t, +1ini, 5+ armor and carry a lazgun. Also, they're fearless more often than not with 25 pts priests. Grots are bad troops also. At least boyz can kick some faces from time to time and won't die to outflanking scouts.
I think that if you want to take something to grab backfield points - our troops are bad for that role. Just take those big gunz u're gona use anywayz. If you got free FA slot, take a couple of koptas with tlbs to just shoot at something and still be there for obj grabbing with their awesome mobility.
You got to take troops unless you play unbound, so why not just make them worthy? 20 boyz with a nob are still vulnerable on their own but they'll at least help out on the frontline. Orkses are all about overhelming the opponent with too many threats to deal with.
Let's think of stuff that can be used for scoring effectively.
Awesomesauce wrote: So eadwompa missile with 10 boys in a trukk, nob+ pk, and boss wiv da wompa? Sounds really risky, super expensive, and horribly unlikely to work, but when it does....
yeah I think throwing something ridiculous like that together really helps to highlight all of the flaws in each of those strategies individually...
I agree a bikerboss is probably the best bet, and at least he won't just get kited the whole time, but throwing him with bob nikerz seems like a total waste, since the WK will just slap them all silly. Maybe bikerboyz to soak wounds since they're fast enough and cheaper than NBs? still seems like a big waste of points to me though
The 'eadwompa warboss has a 45% chance of splatting his opponent on the charge, a little more than that if you take an attack squig. Given enough ablative wounds to be crushed by the big guy's sword, he usually ends up getting beheaded within two rounds of combat.
More Dakka wrote: Anyone else getting the feeling that normal Boyz aren't worth it in a list other than Green Tide?
For an Ork Warband detachment that doesn't get obsec 3 units of 10 grots is plenty to scrabble around getting objectives, meanwhile all the other slots are full of great units (tank bustaz, Manz, bikes, buggies, Kommandoz, Stormboys etc etc).
Normal Boyz couldn't get across the board in 6th and nothing much has changed in that department in 7th, why not just take the best of the best?
The problem with grots is that they're really overpriced for their stats. Conscripts cost the same but are +1s, +1t, +1ini, 5+ armor and carry a lazgun. Also, they're fearless more often than not with 25 pts priests. Grots are bad troops also. At least boyz can kick some faces from time to time and won't die to outflanking scouts.
I think that if you want to take something to grab backfield points - our troops are bad for that role. Just take those big gunz u're gona use anywayz. If you got free FA slot, take a couple of koptas with tlbs to just shoot at something and still be there for obj grabbing with their awesome mobility.
You got to take troops unless you play unbound, so why not just make them worthy? 20 boyz with a nob are still vulnerable on their own but they'll at least help out on the frontline. Orkses are all about overhelming the opponent with too many threats to deal with.
Let's think of stuff that can be used for scoring effectively.
The problem is;
You bring boys, they sit backfield and see no action. They sit on some objectives and get you some VP's. In this scenario the grots would have been just as effective, as there stats are irrelevant. So by bringing grots you save points. you talk about the boys helping on the front line, but how are they helping the front line when their backfield holding objectives? if there at the front their not helping hold objectives. their roles contradict. Thats why you use grots. They are cheaper and not meant to see much action.
Comparing them to conscripts is also not really the point imo. IG sit back and want to shoot you in the face, therefore their game plan is already different to yours. the large majority of your units want to get in their grill. So typically in terms of spread your way more likely to be further into the IG side of the board. So yeh if he has some outflanking units grots are vunerable, but you knew that anyway and should be addressing his outflanking with a plan, rather than letting them come on and wipe your grots
Boys want to be krumpin not standing about like little spascehhh maahinessss.
grots want to be standing about and not krumpin (although they dream of it).
They have separate roles even though they are both troops and should be used that way.
More Dakka wrote: Anyone else getting the feeling that normal Boyz aren't worth it in a list other than Green Tide?
For an Ork Warband detachment that doesn't get obsec 3 units of 10 grots is plenty to scrabble around getting objectives, meanwhile all the other slots are full of great units (tank bustaz, Manz, bikes, buggies, Kommandoz, Stormboys etc etc).
Normal Boyz couldn't get across the board in 6th and nothing much has changed in that department in 7th, why not just take the best of the best?
The problem with grots is that they're really overpriced for their stats. Conscripts cost the same but are +1s, +1t, +1ini, 5+ armor and carry a lazgun. Also, they're fearless more often than not with 25 pts priests. Grots are bad troops also. At least boyz can kick some faces from time to time and won't die to outflanking scouts.
I think that if you want to take something to grab backfield points - our troops are bad for that role. Just take those big gunz u're gona use anywayz. If you got free FA slot, take a couple of koptas with tlbs to just shoot at something and still be there for obj grabbing with their awesome mobility.
You got to take troops unless you play unbound, so why not just make them worthy? 20 boyz with a nob are still vulnerable on their own but they'll at least help out on the frontline. Orkses are all about overhelming the opponent with too many threats to deal with.
Let's think of stuff that can be used for scoring effectively.
The problem is;
You bring boys, they sit backfield and see no action. They sit on some objectives and get you some VP's. In this scenario the grots would have been just as effective, as there stats are irrelevant. So by bringing grots you save points. you talk about the boys helping on the front line, but how are they helping the front line when their backfield holding objectives? if there at the front their not helping hold objectives. their roles contradict. Thats why you use grots. They are cheaper and not meant to see much action.
Comparing them to conscripts is also not really the point imo. IG sit back and want to shoot you in the face, therefore their game plan is already different to yours. the large majority of your units want to get in their grill. So typically in terms of spread your way more likely to be further into the IG side of the board. So yeh if he has some outflanking units grots are vunerable, but you knew that anyway and should be addressing his outflanking with a plan, rather than letting them come on and wipe your grots
Boys want to be krumpin not standing about like little spascehhh maahinessss.
grots want to be standing about and not krumpin (although they dream of it).
They have separate roles even though they are both troops and should be used that way.
I think you completely misunderstood my point. Actually you've understood the opposite of what i've written Maybe my english ain't good enough, i'll try to explain once again.
You have to take troops.
You need to score the backfield.
Everything can score now.
OK, those are the main statements.
If you take min grots - they're cheap pointwise but are very fragile and i'd say they're easy VP for the opponent. It's super easy to take out 11 t2 wounds. They can GTG every turn and have 4+ or even 3+ cover - that's not bad but the opponent usually has plenty of ignore cover stuff and our ld is not reliable to say the least. And this 70-80 pt of grots don't contribute to the frontline even a tiny bit.
If you take min orkses squads - they're almost 2 times as expensive as grots but are way tougher and can have BS or Rokkit launcha. Still quite vulnerable and almost don't contribute to the frontline but at least can hold their own vs something like fast flamer skimmers or outflanking small squads of enemies. They can even handle a deepstriking crysis suit if they're lucky to survive the shooting.
But i suggest to look in another direction. We have scoring backfield shooty support. We can have awesome scoring koptas that are very fast and fairly tough, besides, have mid-long ranged weapons to help out a bit. But we still need troops. And we can make boyz fairly decent. You spend 145 pts and get 20 sluggaboyz with 2 rokkits and bp nob, +25 pts and the nob gets PK but if you're short on pts even a regular one will do. They'll be not bad when you consider that they're another threat on the front.
Thus, my point is - use something else to score the backfield and not troops. Make troops decent and use them on the front.
Agree. Anything can score backfield, so gretchin really don't have anything going for them. If you add their minimum 35 points to something it suddenly becomes a lot less good.
While boyz are no longer a no-brainer choice, they still can have a major impact on the game. Over the course of a game a transport, some unit that managed to dodge being wiped out or someone stranded in the middle of nowhere will do that job just as well without being a 70 point handicap.
I think you completely misunderstood my point. Actually you've understood the opposite of what i've written Maybe my english ain't good enough, i'll try to explain once again.
You have to take troops.
You need to score the backfield.
Everything can score now.
OK, those are the main statements.
If you take min grots - they're cheap pointwise but are very fragile and i'd say they're easy VP for the opponent. It's super easy to take out 11 t2 wounds. They can GTG every turn and have 4+ or even 3+ cover - that's not bad but the opponent usually has plenty of ignore cover stuff and our ld is not reliable to say the least. And this 70-80 pt of grots don't contribute to the frontline even a tiny bit.
If you take min orkses squads - they're almost 2 times as expensive as grots but are way tougher and can have BS or Rokkit launcha. Still quite vulnerable and almost don't contribute to the frontline but at least can hold their own vs something like fast flamer skimmers or outflanking small squads of enemies. They can even handle a deepstriking crysis suit if they're lucky to survive the shooting.
But i suggest to look in another direction. We have scoring backfield shooty support. We can have awesome scoring koptas that are very fast and fairly tough, besides, have mid-long ranged weapons to help out a bit. But we still need troops. And we can make boyz fairly decent. You spend 145 pts and get 20 sluggaboyz with 2 rokkits and bp nob, +25 pts and the nob gets PK but if you're short on pts even a regular one will do. They'll be not bad when you consider that they're another threat on the front.
Thus, my point is - use something else to score the backfield and not troops. Make troops decent and use them on the front.
Ahhh gotcha
Yeh, i liked the idea of using koptas i forgot to mention but I get your point now
How have you found using lobbas or mek guns to hold backfield objectives? I was thinking that putting them on an objective simply makes them a strong target for DS'ers or outflanking. But then again even if you dont they are likely to target the guns and then move on to the objective in the following turn. so meh, seems practical to simply have them on it then.
Blitz brigade with boys, then pick up the barebones trukk for each unit; to cart about in the backfield scoring objectives? also able to pick up any stranded units and Block LOS if really needed.
Hmmmm actually backfield trucks are an awesome idea! If you have footslogging squads, why not take a 30 pts truck with a bigshoota or even rokkit just to sit on those points! And it's mobility will allow capturing whatever's close there! I guess we have no problems with backfield scoring at all! And those trucks are gona be objective secured to boot
Lobbas are great for scoring. They're super tough to get killed from range with anything that's not s8+ or poisoned. And even so, if those gunz shoot at 100 pts of lobbas, those are allready points that payed off! And there are generally not that much mellee threats that are lurking at your backfield.
koooaei wrote: Hmmmm actually backfield trucks are an awesome idea! If you have footslogging squads, why not take a 30 pts truck with a bigshoota or even rokkit just to sit on those points! And it's mobility will allow capturing whatever's close there! I guess we have no problems with backfield scoring at all! And those trucks are gona be objective secured to boot
Yeh OBJ-Secure trukks is a rather hilarious thought. Having trukks rock up and secure an objective that was currently being held by some elite unit just sounds so orky! I know other races get OS transports, but the orks ability to field so damn many! In fact I think anytime I can get a free OS trukk im just gona put it in my list and have it driving about attempting to pick-up VP's.
Updated first Post with info I gathered on the Red Waaagh. I'd greatly appreciate someone posting the exact wording of the two formations since posters have delivered biased info before.
Jidmah wrote: Updated first Post with info I gathered on the Red Waaagh. I'd greatly appreciate someone posting the exact wording of the two formations since posters have delivered biased info before.
Mogrok's Bossboys
3 Big Meks
1 Warboss
1 Weirdboy (must be upgraded to Mastery Level 2)
Big Mek Mogrok: The controlling player must nominate one Big Mek in this formation to be his Warlord (Mogrok). Mogrok
always has the Kunnin’ But Brutal Warlord Trait.
Very Kunnin’: Before deployment, the controlling player can nominate up to D3 friendly Ork units; these units gain the Acute
Senses and Outflank special rules. The controlling player also adds +1 to any attempts to Seize the Initiative.
Gorkanaut Krushin Krew
3 Gorkanauts
Escalating Rivalry: At the start of each game turn, look up the current game turn number on the following table. All models in
this Formation gain the special rules listed on the table.
For the record, my Lobba batteries have been my backfield scorers now.
Theyre sitting back there anyway, why would i want to leave 40pt grot units or ~120pt boy units to do that job when something that i can deploy next to an objective and literally never move the entire game can do the same job that im bringing anyway?
Yes they have leadership issues, more so than normal grots, but they unlike the grots take a bit of dedication to remove without an assault or short-ranged weapons. Unless something outflanks me, my batteries almost never even get shot at until ive already lost the game anyway cause my frontal army is dead.
why the crap does a *Naut get Furious Charge? Aren't their CC weapons already S10? I mean, I guess if it ever gets destroyed Furious Charge is something, but really? Even without the CC weapon they're S8!
If you shelled out for three nauts you probably didn't do it for competitiveness. In that case, you're happy with your orks nobz inside those walkers being furious for fluff's sake.
Spartan089 wrote: Has anyone actually run the repair Stompa build to any success?
I have, it was my first game of 7th ed (with the old ork 'dex). A 2000pt escalation game vs eldar. He didn't have the revanant, but he did have a WK and serpents and all the usual eldar , stompa and 8 boyz were the only things left standing by the end of the game. I lost, obviously, and Stompa had about 6 hull points taken off by the end of the game, but He would have been dead if it weren't for the 4 repair rolls each turn ( I only had one squad of lootas with 3 meks in there, not 2)
streamdragon wrote: why the crap does a *Naut get Furious Charge? Aren't their CC weapons already S10? I mean, I guess if it ever gets destroyed Furious Charge is something, but really? Even without the CC weapon they're S8!
Not the first time a rule was given to a unit that cant benefit from it.
Any idea how pissed off i get when i reroll a warlord trait into the +1 strength trait? My damn warlord has S10.....fml
streamdragon wrote: why the crap does a *Naut get Furious Charge? Aren't their CC weapons already S10? I mean, I guess if it ever gets destroyed Furious Charge is something, but really? Even without the CC weapon they're S8!
Not the first time a rule was given to a unit that cant benefit from it.
Any idea how pissed off i get when i reroll a warlord trait into the +1 strength trait? My damn warlord has S10.....fml
How about the Stikk bomb Chucka. That's basically an auto include on all of my Ork Vehicles. And man the Grotsnik is so much more durable with his cybork body. My favorite combo though is my Warboss with Attack Squig and Lukky Stikk wow what a power house. Sometimes I think GW would do better to release a 6 month trial beta version first so the gamers can find all the stupid stuff to fix before release. That way on official release all points costs and rule questions will be perfect.
streamdragon wrote: why the crap does a *Naut get Furious Charge? Aren't their CC weapons already S10? I mean, I guess if it ever gets destroyed Furious Charge is something, but really? Even without the CC weapon they're S8!
Not the first time a rule was given to a unit that cant benefit from it.
Any idea how pissed off i get when i reroll a warlord trait into the +1 strength trait? My damn warlord has S10.....fml
streamdragon wrote: why the crap does a *Naut get Furious Charge? Aren't their CC weapons already S10? I mean, I guess if it ever gets destroyed Furious Charge is something, but really? Even without the CC weapon they're S8!
Not the first time a rule was given to a unit that cant benefit from it.
Any idea how pissed off i get when i reroll a warlord trait into the +1 strength trait? My damn warlord has S10.....fml
How about the Stikk bomb Chucka. That's basically an auto include on all of my Ork Vehicles. And man the Grotsnik is so much more durable with his cybork body. My favorite combo though is my Warboss with Attack Squig and Lukky Stikk wow what a power house. Sometimes I think GW would do better to release a 6 month trial beta version first so the gamers can find all the stupid stuff to fix before release. That way on official release all points costs and rule questions will be perfect.
The attack squig can serve a purpose. You can fail the attack squig reroll and not get removed for lucky stick.
For 15 points though?? I guess its useful if your taking multiple warbosses.. but even +1 attack like it used to be would have been a better option.. no?
Its basicly the same thing digital weapons now. What's the points coat of digital weapons? Pretty sure its not 15 points. What a rip. They should have brought back big horns for +1 Leadership. That would have been a worth while piece of wargear.
Jidmah wrote: Updated first Post with info I gathered on the Red Waaagh. I'd greatly appreciate someone posting the exact wording of the two formations since posters have delivered biased info before.
Mogrok's Bossboys
3 Big Meks
1 Warboss
1 Weirdboy (must be upgraded to Mastery Level 2)
Big Mek Mogrok: The controlling player must nominate one Big Mek in this formation to be his Warlord (Mogrok). Mogrok
always has the Kunnin’ But Brutal Warlord Trait.
Very Kunnin’: Before deployment, the controlling player can nominate up to D3 friendly Ork units; these units gain the Acute
Senses and Outflank special rules. The controlling player also adds +1 to any attempts to Seize the Initiative.
There are no additional restrictions, so it seems you can deploy the units from the formations anyway you like.
About Mogrok formation, the Very Kunnin rule (outflank) is limited to non-vehicule units, or any Ork units? ( outflanking Gorkanaut, anyone?)
Jidmah wrote: I assume that this is the exact wording, so no limits.
It is.
Jidmah wrote: The formation is very awesome, basically giving you five additional HQ slots. The only downside is not having a Waaagh.
Well, it requires you to take a warboss but denies you the best uses for him by not letting him be the warlord and it restricts your warlord traits (I'd rather have two re-rollable strategic traits using a CAD and Da Finkin Kap).
Still probably going to use it quite a bit though.
its also takes up one detachment slot, might not be an issue for lots of builds, but its a limiting factor.
all the ork formations are great and fill some sort of niche without being over the top, really well done and worth it to play with and have fun with lots of them.
easysauce wrote: all the ork formations are great and fill some sort of niche without being over the top, really well done and worth it to play with and have fun with lots of them.
I am really very strongly tempted to pick up the Ghazzie supplement and run the 15 Meganobz formation. I love the look of the models, and it seems like a fairly hilarious way to collect the tears of my opponents. Ork Boyz just don't do it for me in melee anymore, so three small and viciously dangerous mobz of Megas seem like a better bet instead. Perhaps combined with a Stompa to overload my opponent's ability to judge threats.
easysauce wrote: all the ork formations are great and fill some sort of niche without being over the top, really well done and worth it to play with and have fun with lots of them.
I am really very strongly tempted to pick up the Ghazzie supplement and run the 15 Meganobz formation. I love the look of the models, and it seems like a fairly hilarious way to collect the tears of my opponents. Ork Boyz just don't do it for me in melee anymore, so three small and viciously dangerous mobz of Megas seem like a better bet instead. Perhaps combined with a Stompa to overload my opponent's ability to judge threats.
Depends what points game you play at, stompa plus 15 meganobz and 3 trukks (because we know they aren't walking into the melee) cost nearly 1500 pts. Its not that hard to isolate 4 targets and you'll be hard pressed to secure objectives.
Yeah, that would be a 2k list. At 1500 I think that you'd be taking one or the other. The Stompa, while funny and the model that I am currently painting, is actually the world's biggest chore to transport. So I'm a bit loath to make it a standard element of my 1500 list...
Charles Rampant wrote: Yeah, that would be a 2k list. At 1500 I think that you'd be taking one or the other. The Stompa, while funny and the model that I am currently painting, is actually the world's biggest chore to transport. So I'm a bit loath to make it a standard element of my 1500 list...
so do you feel the stompa is worth his points then? I cringe when I think about the suppa gattla jamming on the first turn for me.
It is worth the look on your opponent's face. I actually just finished a game where mine got blown up turn one
The Stompa's shooting is fun, but despite having loads of guns it isn't a shooting unit. It can blow up tanks reasonably easily, thanks to a Primary weapon (= roll 2d6 pick highest on penetration rolls) with 7" blast, S10 AP1. That allows you to hammer a tank or two, one of our biggest problems. The rockets are fun for killing squads, I guess, while the gattler is a very nice all-round weapon (including anti-flyer duties, I feel).
The main thing that a Stompa does is attract attention, which it is better equipped to receive than any of our other units, and get into melee and stamp on stuff. Like an Imperial Knight, the real damage comes in melee; it just happens to be much better at shooting, and has more hull points.
I've noticed that people often avoid shooting it, as they interpret that as wasting their time; instead they throw units of hammernators, Meganobs or other melee damage dealers at it to try and do 12 HP worth of damage in one go. For a demonstration of that, I have a battle report here. This inclines me to think that filling it with a KFF and meks to fix it isn't hugely worthwhile, as you are throwing points away, especially when the rest of your army is anaemic anyway. In the game that I just finished, my Ork opponent charged a MegaBoss and seven Meganobz into it, and did 19 hullpoints of damage in one go. Totally worth it.
I found out that a battlewagon filled to the brim with Ard slugga boys, a painboss and a Warboss hits like a ton of bricks and can rip most things apart while sustaining little casualties. Lack of an invuln save still hurts the warboss though.
Anyways, the squad singlehandedly can kill a baneblade in one round of combat (I would have today, but I forgot stikk bombs are krak grenades) and it can hold it's own against a lot of nids.
EDIT EDIT DANGER DANGER: as they pointed out below I missread the rules and turns out they are just frags X-X I'm not the smartest gamer there is.
Thats asking for some baller dice to kill a baneblade in one go. I dont remember how many HP they have but i know they have a lot and 4 S9 and 5 S10 AP2 attacks hitting on 3s...you kinda need them all unless you roll like a boss on the explode bonus damage (if you GET the explode result).
Vineheart01 wrote: stikk bombs are krak grenades wait what? since when? theyve always been assault grenades where the hell does it say theyre kraks?
....OH CRAP YOUR RIGHT. Whoopsie daisy. I must have misread the entire passage in the heat of the moment thanks for catching that before I blew up another super heavy tank with str 3 boys.
quick question guys, I'm using a mek gun battery of 5 kustom mega blastas, and I'm wondering if i need to add an IC to this unit. if so, which one works best here? just a bare bones mek for leadership boost, or is there one that can add more to the squad? is a SAG big mek waisted here? any help is appreciated.
Bit of a weird one this. I'm looking at some allies for my daemons list, party to fill holes tactically and partly for something different to paint. I'm open to any level of alliance provided the disadvantages can be avoided. Just wondering if you thought orks might be able to bring anything to the table?
The holes I'm looking to plug are ranged anti tank, anti flyer, and anti knight (or superheavy in general). I've got about 500pts to spend and the rest of my list is 2 disc heralds, 2 pink horror units, 1 big screamer unit and 2 slaanesh grinders (1000pts approx).
Well, Lootaz Flashgitz and Tankbustaz are the ore's best footslogin shootaz for armor. But there are also the Mekgunz with BS3... which is the highest BS in the codex. Leading me to my next point - What Tetrisphreak said.
Nope that is very true! A better option is probably necrons, but I was tempted by a battery of mek gunz for some dirty cheap AA and AT power, plus maybe some twin rokkit buggies for speedy AT. Fluff justification is a lot easier with orks than necrons too
And I might as well ask here, since you "revived" it anyway
If a character has both da Supa-Cyborg and Mega Armour on him, does he move normally because of the Relentless special rule, or does he still get the penalty of SnP?
If a character has both da Supa-Cyborg and Mega Armour on him, does he move normally because of the Relentless special rule, or does he still get the penalty of SnP?
Still subject to the restrictions of Slow and Purposeful, since relentless does nothing to stop them and you can't choose to turn S&P off.
Added the Dataslate and Formations from Sanctus Reach: Stormclaw and Sanctus Reach: Hour of the Wolf to first post.
Bardrukk's Flash Gits look awesome, though bookkeeping the master-crafted rolls is going to be a pain in the rear.
The Grukk formation is kind of lame, though I guess it helps people expand their ork armies if they started with a Stormclaw set. Otherwise I don't why you would ever want to field it.
The air armada is pretty awesome in case you want to field five planes on top of other fast attack slots. Being able to bomb and missile stuff all game also makes the burna bommer a lot more viable.
I'm building toward a TAC 1850 Ork army. I've got about 1/2 of the models, and am at a decision point to decide the direction I want to build toward first. I am eyeing the Blitz Brigade, but it is fairly pricey to bring at 1850. This is the list I'm leaning toward:
I've got 2 Battlewagons already, but would need 3 more, a Mek, and 3 more MANZ
Is there a better way to go with Blitz Brigade at 1850? I was debating about dropping the Mek Gunz for 3-4 Deffkoptas in an effort to give my outside battle wagons a cover save, but I worry about depending on things like Tankbustas for anti-air.
My other inclination is to go for Ghazghull's Bullyboyz, and get lots more Trukks:
Spoiler:
Combined Arms Warboss (EA, WB, PK, Da Finken' Kap) <- Master of Ambush allows me to infiltrate all the Bikes, and all the MANZ.
Painboy (WB)
The Grukk formation is kind of lame, though I guess it helps people expand their ork armies if they started with a Stormclaw set. Otherwise I don't why you would ever want to field it.
Being able to deepstrike turn 1 with all that stuff sounds good, depending on who you're facing
The Grukk formation is kind of lame, though I guess it helps people expand their ork armies if they started with a Stormclaw set. Otherwise I don't why you would ever want to field it.
Being able to deepstrike turn 1 with all that stuff sounds good, depending on who you're facing
The fixed wargear is what screws it up. If you could Deep Strike Killa Kans with Grotzookas, it would be more appealing. Or if you could put a painboy with the Nobz it might make sense. as is you've got a lot of expensive units that aren't equipped very well, and are likely to die to the opponent's alpha strike.
Agreed, fixed wargear is the issue. I could care less about the grots but theyre so cheap i would gladly take them to get the rest to deepstrike in turn 1 as a "special rule cost"
Footnobz by default have issues, i didnt even bother looking at their loadout since i doubted they'd do anything anyway barring being able to deepstrike behind a wall to hide or something.
The kan trio....when i heard they deepstriked i went OOOO OOO !! but then saw they have three different and completely stupid loadouts in the SAME UNIT. Why the hell would you mix and match ANY kan weapon? Even the bigshoota and grotzooka dont like each other because of the range difference and ones a blast other is 3 shots without twinlink. No matter the target, at least one of their weapons will be wasted either via overkill (rokkit vs guardsmen) or useless (grotzooka vs AV12 vehicle)
Literally if they just allowed custom loadouts but limited the numbers, that formation would be pretty good.
The Grukk formation is kind of lame, though I guess it helps people expand their ork armies if they started with a Stormclaw set. Otherwise I don't why you would ever want to field it.
Being able to deepstrike turn 1 with all that stuff sounds good, depending on who you're facing
The fixed wargear is what screws it up. If you could Deep Strike Killa Kans with Grotzookas, it would be more appealing. Or if you could put a painboy with the Nobz it might make sense. as is you've got a lot of expensive units that aren't equipped very well, and are likely to die to the opponent's alpha strike.
Hmm, yeah, that's not as appealing. Still, splitting the cost of the box was a great way to get a bunch of models that work in other units very cheaply, so more of that please GW
I'm loving the grukk face rippa as my warlord. Reroll morale & pinning checks for at least 1/2 my army, then a reroll on the mob rule. Yes please, it makes me a happy ork. It almost makes up for losing fearless.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: Added the Dataslate and Formations from Sanctus Reach: Stormclaw and Sanctus Reach: Hour of the Wolf to first post.
Grukk Facerippa
- Warboss with 'eavy armor, kombi-rokkit, PK and boss pole
- Always has the Bellowing Tyrant warlord trait
- For 16 additional points he gets 5+ FNP and Shred on his PK.
he also has an attack squig.
Where is this 16 points for FNP & shred listed? on his datasheet FNP is listed as a special rule of his already.
I thought the git rippa was included as well, but it's not listed under wargear so now I'm wondering where you found this 16 point cost at.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: That flash gitz formation is legit. in a higher point game with a player who enjoys flash gitz could put out some dakka!!
if I thought I could deal with painting another 10 Flash Gits I'd totally do it, but ugh. Though, I do have 5 nobs I got in Stormclaw that aren't marked for anything... that means I'd only have to buy another box of Flash Gitz...
The Grukk formation is kind of lame, though I guess it helps people expand their ork armies if they started with a Stormclaw set. Otherwise I don't why you would ever want to field it.
Being able to deepstrike turn 1 with all that stuff sounds good, depending on who you're facing
I was talking about the Grukk Formation from the Hour of the Wolf, which basically is a mini-dreadmob. Sadly, fear isn't that awesome outside of fighting other orks, so that's why I called it lame.
The deep strike formation from Stormclaw is somewhat nonsense though. I can't think of a single army that can't handle 3 Kanz, 5 nobz and a warboss deep-striking right in front of them. The only gems from that set are the character kan (AV11 issuing challenges is evil) and Grukk, who is a nice sidegrade to regular foot warboss, especially in mobs without painboy.
Squighound does D6 hits now, it technically got nerfed because of this. S3 hits wound grots on a 3+ but then again you still need to roll to wound so possibly less painful yet equally possible it hurts more.
Does anyone have suggestions for Alternate Battle Wagons or Trukks? I actually think the Trukk kit is one of GW's best, but I need quite a few BWs (5) and Trukks (9) for my Ork army, and cringe at the price tag.
Go find a hobby store that sells model kits, usually 1/35 scale i believe is what you want. Get some tanks and humvees or something of the sort, slap some orky things to them, paint'm good, bam trukks and wagons. Also makes them different from each other, which technically is more orky since no ork vehicle is the same thing due to the meks slapping random crap on that "fits" lol.
Cheap plastic model kits can usually be found for ~10-15USD each. Their detail level is really low but you want the chassis anyway not the detail since youre going to be adding that.
If you dont want to kitbash, but dont want GW models, you might as well just poke around other tabletop games or miniature companies that just make models for RPG-purposes rather than their own game. However you wont save that much doing this.
In the Hour of the Wolf, Grukks crew get Fear, and Logan's get fearless. Seems like it should be the other way around. Fearless on Grukks crew would make me want to find a way to use it. As is....meh.
Badrukk's crew is legit.
The wingnutz formation got me debating with a friend against something that would benefit me. Its special rules state "whenever a flyer from this formation leaves combat airspace, it returns to play with its full complement of hull points, and with it's starting quota of one use only weapons"
Now, I took a liking to this immediately but a friend pointed out something that can't be right... It states that the flyer returns to play when it leaves combat airspace, NOT ongoing reserves meaning that once all the flyers from this formation have come in from reserves they are always overhead until shot down. That can't be right, can it? I guess reading the fluff entry on the dataslate kinda supports that, but seems a bit much.
Amiricle wrote: In the Hour of the Wolf, Grukks crew get Fear, and Logan's get fearless. Seems like it should be the other way around. Fearless on Grukks crew would make me want to find a way to use it. As is....meh.
Badrukk's crew is legit.
The wingnutz formation got me debating with a friend against something that would benefit me. Its special rules state "whenever a flyer from this formation leaves combat airspace, it returns to play with its full complement of hull points, and with it's starting quota of one use only weapons"
Now, I took a liking to this immediately but a friend pointed out something that can't be right... It states that the flyer returns to play when it leaves combat airspace, NOT ongoing reserves meaning that once all the flyers from this formation have come in from reserves they are always overhead until shot down. That can't be right, can it? I guess reading the fluff entry on the dataslate kinda supports that, but seems a bit much.
I thought it read that "When it returns to play" that it gets healed/full armament. So you have a bomba come in. In a turn or two, it takes a HP, and drops a bomb or two. You fly it off the board and it goes into 'reserves', but they come back automatically next turn if I'm not mistaken, so now it has full HP and Bombs. I'm pretty sure when a flier leaves the board, you don't have to reroll to get back onto the board, they just come off your edge again.
Yea, that's how I read it and will play it. He said that you could move it off the board, then immediately back on healed & rearmed able to shoot in that same phase. His reasoning is that it's not actually that plane but hoards of planes flying overhead and another brand new one is taking the place of the one flying off, but he's a beakie anyway so I'll just ignore his advice.
Neither his reasoning nor the fluff overrides the rules.
While it fluff-wise is a different plane coming on, rules-wise it's the exact same burna-bommer that you moved off. For that reason it will be coming from ongoing reserves as usual.
I'm starting a small ork army for fun (mainly because I want to paint up some ork models lol), so I am putting together a 1,000pt list for starters. I've picked up a full Assault on Black Reach kit on ebay, plus another 20 AoBR Boyz and 1 Deffkopta to start with. This is what I'm thinking of going with:
GoonBandito wrote: I'm starting a small ork army for fun (mainly because I want to paint up some ork models lol), so I am putting together a 1,000pt list for starters. I've picked up a full Assault on Black Reach kit on ebay, plus another 20 AoBR Boyz and 1 Deffkopta to start with. This is what I'm thinking of going with:
Comes out to 1000 pts on the dot. Dakkajet there is mainly because I love the look of the model. Any major shortcomings in the list?
Problems against armor and their pie plates? I'd at least try and fit a unit of Tankbustas/Flash Gits/Lootas. Maybe hold off on MANZ till games of higher point level? At the very least you wanna give ALL your mobs some special weapons like rokkits/big shootas. Orks is about spamming stuff. Most of it blows up so easily/, and you need a lotta boyz shooting to hit anything.
MANz are more of a 1500pt or higher thing, as the ~170pts for a MANz Missile can be quite a point sink for low point games. Especially since they usually only kill 1-2 units if theyre the biggest obvious target, and they will be at low points.
For not much more you can get Tankbustas and they can be a bigger thorn than you think. Lootas too for that matter.
Hmm, ok I can drop the MANz and grab 4 Tankbusters + Boss Nob with BP and 5 Lootas for the same points. Or 2 groups of 5 Tankbusters. Though I do like the MANz model :( Perhaps that will be something to look forward to for higher points.
And are Big Shootas/Rokkits worth it in Slugga mobs? I was thinking to just run them across the board and use a Waagh! to run+assault on Turn2.
GoonBandito wrote: Hmm, ok I can drop the MANz and grab 4 Tankbusters + Boss Nob with BP and 5 Lootas for the same points. Or 2 groups of 5 Tankbusters. Though I do like the MANz model :( Perhaps that will be something to look forward to for higher points.
And are Big Shootas/Rokkits worth it in Slugga mobs? I was thinking to just run them across the board and use a Waagh! to run+assault on Turn2.
Ya drop MANZ. You can get away with smaller Loota units of five. They have so many shots coming out they hit a lot. They may run easy, but the longish range really helps them survive. You want bigger size Tankbusta units. like 10-15. cause each guy is firing 1 rokkit so you need pretty many to hit a decent amount of times. Also they have a bunch of fun amti armor gubbins now. I take 12 in a trukk.and they do awesome!
I would even consider making your unit of shootas into Tankbustas and giving them a trukk. Any extra points just fatten up both slugga units.
Personally, I feel Rokkits and Big Shootas are worth it when your running blobs. Theyre assault weapons (move and fire), higher strength and theyre longer range then sluggas, so you can at least start hitting stuff sooner while your moving forward and getting blown apart.. I think theyre cheap for what they do. If you stick 3 rokkits in a blob of 30 and kill 1 marine they almost got their points back.
Hey, guyz! What do you think about grot artillery in low-pt games?
First of all, i must say that i'm scratch-building big gunz using plastic clay. They're supposed to be lobbas and pretty much look like them but the opponents won't mind if i proxy them as basically any gun in a true ork spirit that 'you don't know what gun it is unless it actually fires'. So far i've built 3 gunz and have almost done the 4-th one. There will be 5 total.
I want to field a Warboss, a Painboy, 30 sluggaboyz, 20 shootaboyz and 4-5 big gunz spread in 2-3 squads since HS is not occupied.
From my gaming experience, lobbas are awesome but they start to be effective only in squads of 3 or more just cause of how multiple barrage works.
So, here's the question: what gunz would you take in such low pt games in a footsloggin' list? KMK are probably the go-to but are the other gunz like smashas or zzaps worth it? But i run into the 36' range problem with most big gunz other than lobbas =(
Btw, if you want, i can make some photos of plastic-clay big gunz after conpleting the 4-th one this evening
koooaei wrote: Hey, guyz! What do you think about grot artillery in low-pt games?
First of all, i must say that i'm scratch-building big gunz using plastic clay. They're supposed to be lobbas and pretty much look like them but the opponents won't mind if i proxy them as basically any gun in a true ork spirit that 'you don't know what gun it is unless it actually fires'. So far i've built 3 gunz and have almost done the 4-th one. There will be 5 total.
I want to field a Warboss, a Painboy, 30 sluggaboyz, 20 shootaboyz and 4-5 big gunz spread in 2-3 squads since HS is not occupied.
From my gaming experience, lobbas are awesome but they start to be effective only in squads of 3 or more just cause of how multiple barrage works.
So, here's the question: what gunz would you take in such low pt games in a footsloggin' list? KMK are probably the go-to but are the other gunz like smashas or zzaps worth it? But i run into the 36' range problem with most big gunz other than lobbas =(
Btw, if you want, i can make some photos of plastic-clay big gunz after conpleting the 4-th one this evening
I think you answered your question. Lobbas are solid. Rethink lobbas.
sirlynchmob wrote: I'm loving the grukk face rippa as my warlord. Reroll morale & pinning checks for at least 1/2 my army, then a reroll on the mob rule. Yes please, it makes me a happy ork. It almost makes up for losing fearless.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: Added the Dataslate and Formations from Sanctus Reach: Stormclaw and Sanctus Reach: Hour of the Wolf to first post.
Grukk Facerippa
- Warboss with 'eavy armor, kombi-rokkit, PK and boss pole
- Always has the Bellowing Tyrant warlord trait
- For 16 additional points he gets 5+ FNP and Shred on his PK.
he also has an attack squig.
Where is this 16 points for FNP & shred listed? on his datasheet FNP is listed as a special rule of his already.
I thought the git rippa was included as well, but it's not listed under wargear so now I'm wondering where you found this 16 point cost at.
Oh, I missed that post. Added the attack squig. The points are the "tax" you pay compared to just picking a regular warboss with the same loadout.
How the hell do you apply a +2 modifier to a chart roll? The way im assuming it works is absolutely garbage since 9/10 of the time i want a 2/3 result not a 4+, and it makes it sound like i add 2 to the dice result making it impossible to get a 1 or 2 and damn near impossible to get a 3. That totally ruins mob rule for units less than 10, wth
How the hell do you apply a +2 modifier to a chart roll? The way im assuming it works is absolutely garbage since 9/10 of the time i want a 2/3 result not a 4+, and it makes it sound like i add 2 to the dice result making it impossible to get a 1 or 2 and damn near impossible to get a 3. That totally ruins mob rule for units less than 10, wth
If it's intended to apply to any dice roll, then yes, once again GW haven't done their proof reading, as clearly a +2 is nonsensical in some cases. Some more careful rewording - e.g. "you may modify any one dice result by from -2 to +2" - would make more sense.
I think the idea behind Waaagh! Ghazghkull is to keep large mobs on the table without needing a character. The formations reflect this, as they all are either fearless, made of vehicles or consist of a metric ton of models.
The only formation that can hurt from it i guess if you look at it is the Snikrot "Sneaky Gitz" formation, since they form 4 units of 15 models. The rest as you stated are fearless, a vehicle, or ginormous lol. Stormboy one can be up to 30models per unit, so thats not even an issue (deepstriking that many is an issue on its own)
Thankfully nothing says the CAD you take in addition to the formation says you must use the supp rules for the CAD, so our MANz missiles and other such small units are from the normal codex without these rules if we so choose.
Hey guys, please forgive my ignorance, but I'm REALLY confused here. I have my shiny new codex here (Got it when it came out) but I don't see things like the supplements, extra formations and rules like "Da Boss is Watching."
Is there another book that I'm missing, or am I just REALLY bad at reading this thing?
Sytakan wrote: Hey guys, please forgive my ignorance, but I'm REALLY confused here. I have my shiny new codex here (Got it when it came out) but I don't see things like the supplements, extra formations and rules like "Da Boss is Watching."
Is there another book that I'm missing, or am I just REALLY bad at reading this thing?
Sytakan wrote: Hey guys, please forgive my ignorance, but I'm REALLY confused here. I have my shiny new codex here (Got it when it came out) but I don't see things like the supplements, extra formations and rules like "Da Boss is Watching."
Is there another book that I'm missing, or am I just REALLY bad at reading this thing?
Yup, it's GW's latest cruel trick - release a bland codex, and put all the cool formations and special characters etc in a separate supplement, so you have to buy both books.
Some GW accountant probably thinks it's a genius way to double sales revenue, but all it's really doing is discourage new players and lower overall sales. :(
sirlynchmob wrote: I'm loving the grukk face rippa as my warlord. Reroll morale & pinning checks for at least 1/2 my army, then a reroll on the mob rule. Yes please, it makes me a happy ork. It almost makes up for losing fearless.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: Added the Dataslate and Formations from Sanctus Reach: Stormclaw and Sanctus Reach: Hour of the Wolf to first post.
Grukk Facerippa
- Warboss with 'eavy armor, kombi-rokkit, PK and boss pole
- Always has the Bellowing Tyrant warlord trait
- For 16 additional points he gets 5+ FNP and Shred on his PK.
he also has an attack squig.
Where is this 16 points for FNP & shred listed? on his datasheet FNP is listed as a special rule of his already.
I thought the git rippa was included as well, but it's not listed under wargear so now I'm wondering where you found this 16 point cost at.
Oh, I missed that post. Added the attack squig. The points are the "tax" you pay compared to just picking a regular warboss with the same loadout.
Thanks for clearing that up. I'll pay the tax for the warlord trait I want.
Bellowing Tyrant, that's the one I was trying to think of before. So if you take the Council of Waaagh! formation, you get Prophet of Gork & Mork, Bellowing Tyrant, and two additional Warlord Traits from the Ghaz supplement.
Note that Council of Waaagh! is slightly different than bellowing tyrant - you get to reroll as long as the Waaagh! banner is alive, rather than as long as Thrakka is alive.
Sytakan wrote: Hey guys, please forgive my ignorance, but I'm REALLY confused here. I have my shiny new codex here (Got it when it came out) but I don't see things like the supplements, extra formations and rules like "Da Boss is Watching."
Is there another book that I'm missing, or am I just REALLY bad at reading this thing?
The name of the book is the bold and underlined part above each section. Also note that all books except the Sanctus Reach:Stormclaw one are available as ebooks for a lot less than hard covers. You'll usually only use one or two pages out of those per game, so printing them and shoving them in your codex is valid option.
I have been having issues with Mega Armour, because I am winning combats and my opponent just runs away and regroups next turn, and shoots me to death. Drives me crazy.
What is the Flash Git formation? What book is it in?
I have been having issues with Mega Armour, because I am winning combats and my opponent just runs away and regroups next turn, and shoots me to death. Drives me crazy.
What is the Flash Git formation? What book is it in?
that's why I usually have him in heavy armor so he could run and stuff. I almost never have him in a challenge, but most challenge heros are ap2 anyways. though honsestly the squad he's in runs over stuff anyways
There was at least one greentide formation at NOVA. One of them went undefeated day 1. Does anyone know the details of one of those lists? If not, could someone give me an 1850 Greentide formation list that you would take to a top tier tourney?
Quick question regarding Council of Da Waaagh! formation.
The part talking about the bearer of the waaagh banner makes it sound like its giving you +1WS and Fearless in addition to the usual +1WS from the banner to begin with. Am i just reading this in my favor? Huge difference between WS7 and 8 on my bosses lol.
Reason im reading it as +1 more than the banner usually gives is because its writing it as a condition for fearless and +1ws. Then again im thinking proper writing here, not GW logic so im probably wrong here lol
tag8833 wrote: Maybe someone with a good eye can figure out the list from the pics.
Looks like the Green Tide itself, several units of mek guns (two sets of three traktor kannons and some lobbas from what I can tell) an ADL and at least one more unit of ork infantry, presumably boyz. Can't make out any characters, which are going to be a significant factor.
As general advice for a green tide formation, I'd say try to get as many buffs onto it as possible. The warboss in the formation is unfortunately limited to the W:G unique wargear, so no lukky stikk. Probably best to give him Da Big Bosspole to make the whole lot fearless.
Then grab a couple more characters to buff the big mass of boys; another warboss with da lukky stikk for +1 WS to all of them and a Painboy to give them FNP would be my choice. If those characters come from a combined arms detachment, you are going to need a couple of units of boys to fill out the compulsory FOC slots. Use them as objective grabbers. Then fill out your points allowance with support units (probably mek guns).
The tricky bit would seem to be maneuvering the large unit effectively. It seems obvious from the images that he isn't just pushing them forwards in one big blob, but exactly what tactics are being used is beyond me.
tag8833 wrote: Maybe someone with a good eye can figure out the list from the pics.
Looks like the Green Tide itself, several units of mek guns (two sets of three traktor kannons and some lobbas from what I can tell) an ADL and at least one more unit of ork infantry, presumably boyz. Can't make out any characters, which are going to be a significant factor.
As general advice for a green tide formation, I'd say try to get as many buffs onto it as possible. The warboss in the formation is unfortunately limited to the W:G unique wargear, so no lukky stikk. Probably best to give him Da Big Bosspole to make the whole lot fearless.
Then grab a couple more characters to buff the big mass of boys; another warboss with da lukky stikk for +1 WS to all of them and a Painboy to give them FNP would be my choice. If those characters come from a combined arms detachment, you are going to need a couple of units of boys to fill out the compulsory FOC slots. Use them as objective grabbers. Then fill out your points allowance with support units (probably mek guns).
The tricky bit would seem to be maneuvering the large unit effectively. It seems obvious from the images that he isn't just pushing them forwards in one big blob, but exactly what tactics are being used is beyond me.
Based on your thoughts and my observations of the pictures I've got this 1850 list as a proposal, but I don't have much experience with these sorts of lists, so let me know where I'm guessing wrong.
Spoiler:
CAD:
Warboss: EA, PK, Da Finkin' Kap <- I know you said Da Lukky Stik, but infiltrating this whole mob or even move through cover and Stealth in ruins would be huge. As I said, not a pro at big ork lists, so maybe Da Lukky Stik would be better.
Painboy
Mek Gunz (3 Tractor Kannons, 2 Kannons) w/ 5 ammo runts <- I think they were Kannons instead of Lobbas. Of course they could have been in a separate squad, can't tell.
Mek Gunz (3 Tractor Kannons) w/ 3 ammo runts
Jidmah wrote: The rule is on top of the regular Waaagh! banner, so you get +2 WS.
Some people argue that it should only give +1WS because the rule replaces the Waaagh! banner, but the rules don't support that in any way.
Thats how i was viewing it.
GW is notorious for never ever repeating rules. The only time they state a rule without being in an "armory" type listing is when it pertains to a specific unit/unit type, such as vehicle rules, jet/jumppack rules, or special character rules (and formations). This would be literally the only time they reiterate what the waaagh! banner did, which made me believe it was +2WS.
Which is awesome as hell because vast majority of true melee monsters that actually HAVE a ws to shake a stick at usually cap out at ws7. Means my bosses and ghaz still hit on 3s lol.
Also i noticed something rather.....scary about this formation. If Ghaz gets the Rage warlord trait, and you benefit from Rampage, he can max out at 10 attacks on the charge lol. Thats just gnarly, especially considering the bosses will be toting 8 right behing him (im saying the D3 fro Rampage gave 3, assuming you were actually outnumbered). Thought about adding a weirdboy purely for Warpath goodness but then noticed i cant add or remove any ICs....nuts lol
I do believe the 2 Leftenuntz will get +2 to their WS, but this is because it specifically states the these two get a +1 because of their status. All Formation members also benefit from +1WS because of the WAAAGH!!! Banner AND are Fearless.
This has nothing to do with interpretation. The +1 WS for the unit simply is a formation rule, which gives it bonus as long as the Waaagh! banner lives. If the banner dies, you still have the rule, it just doesn't do anything anymore.
The Waaagh! banner itself is a piece of wargear also providing +1 WS. Neither rule interacts with each other, so the is no reason to believe that they counter or replace each other.
The leftenuntz have three independent rules each giving them +1 WS. If you disagree with this, feel free to get confirmation on YMDC.
Which also falls under what i mentioned: GW does not repeat rules. If it was +1WS as long as the banner is alive and not +2, it would simply omit the +1WS part in the formation and just say fearless, still granting +1 because of the banner's normal rules.
Let's face it, GW sucks at actually putting their thoughts into rules. Then some poor editor without knowledge of the game has to edit the whole mess and make it readable.
Good rules would simply have read:
"This unit's Waaagh! banner adds a further +1 WS (for a total bonus of +2 WS), confers the Fearless special rule to the bearer's unit and allows all models with 'ere we go within 12" to reroll moral and pinning checks."
Play-testing doesn't just help with balancing and broken rules, it also tells you where you need to put more clarifications.
Clang wrote: Yup, it's GW's latest cruel trick - release a bland codex, and put all the cool formations and special characters etc in a separate supplement, so you have to buy both books.
Some GW accountant probably thinks it's a genius way to double sales revenue, but all it's really doing is discourage new players and lower overall sales. :(
Yeah, they started this nasty bit of business with poor Tyranids, putting all the good formations in Dataslates. It worked, as all the Nid players bought the Dataslates to have a chance at competing. Now everyone is going to get the same treatment. This strategy works pretty well on second tier armies like Orks and Nids, who need whatever help they can get. Not so much on other factions.
Im just as frustrated by poor editing and rules writing.
I believe the intent of the rule for the Banner of the Great WAAAGH! is to include the WAAAGH! Banner +1WS bonus to show that it is in fact a WAAAGH! Banner but also adds the Fearless special rule to show its uniqueness.
Since its an independent formation not part of the base codex, I dont believe it adds +1 to the base codex WAAAGH! banner, as it is not that banner.
What about gitz formation? 20 + badruk = footslogging. Which is awful for gitz unless the enemy's rushing at your lines. And it doesn't happen every game.
unfamiliar with that formation. are they all in one unit or is it multiples?
if its multiples nothing says you cant split them up into wagons. The sneaky gitz formation acts as 3 separate units for all purposes except the reserve roll. Though they shouldnt be taking vehicles, they can lol
Clang wrote: Yup, it's GW's latest cruel trick - release a bland codex, and put all the cool formations and special characters etc in a separate supplement, so you have to buy both books.
Some GW accountant probably thinks it's a genius way to double sales revenue, but all it's really doing is discourage new players and lower overall sales. :(
Yeah, they started this nasty bit of business with poor Tyranids, putting all the good formations in Dataslates. It worked, as all the Nid players bought the Dataslates to have a chance at competing. Now everyone is going to get the same treatment. This strategy works pretty well on second tier armies like Orks and Nids, who need whatever help they can get. Not so much on other factions.
Spoiler:
Just download the pdf and you got the rules, eh. All the changes can fit on one page. Everything else is story, missions and stuff like that. They're not bad but won't affect the rules.
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Vineheart01 wrote: unfamiliar with that formation. are they all in one unit or is it multiples?
if its multiples nothing says you cant split them up into wagons. The sneaky gitz formation acts as 3 separate units for all purposes except the reserve roll. Though they shouldnt be taking vehicles, they can lol
Look at the 1-st page. Hour of the Wolf. They can be joined. Or can stay in separate units. I'm just trying to figure out if joining them is worth the loss of a battlewagon.
i would leave them separate then. gitz are too vulnerable to footslog it. least after they zoom up a turn or two they can duck around cover while shooting.
kaiservonhugal wrote: Since its an independent formation not part of the base codex, I dont believe it adds +1 to the base codex WAAAGH! banner, as it is not that banner.
That's pretty much the point. You have a rule on the formation which stops doing something when the Waaagh! banner dies. And you have the regular codex Waaagh! banner. Each adds +1 WS.
looking at doing some changes with my list. one of which is adding a bigmek with SAG. i love the model, don't know if love its actual functionality though.
thinking about adding one to my big mek guns, but I'm not sure which variant he synergises with best though.
I'm not running any bikes, so that's not an option. my list is mostly built around a greentide.
thanks for any tips.
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koooaei wrote: How valuable is DLS warboss for a greentide?
i would say pretty significant, I'm running one in my tide with an additional warboss from a CAD. i wouldn't personally leave the house without one.
Two questions for you guys; (rather random - as I like odd tactics)
Doh! just answered one of em myself and its not possible, I was just thinking about a DLSMA warboss in a tide of grots, but then remembered that theres no way to get a huge single unit of grots - brain fart there. But would have been hilarious for board coverage with a 2+ at the front.
Second;
Im running some cron allies 2 ghostarks with warriors and the HQ and crytek in one each. I was considering pushing the ghostarks out in front of my battlewagons, bikes and trukks, rotating them sideways in order to create an AV13 wall in effect.
Aims being; blocking LOS from my MANz missile and BW/trukk boys
Can i shoot past the ghost arks with my own units? Not 100% on how skimmers block LOS in this regard? as they are allies of convienience? so they are an enemy unit that i simply cannot charge, shoot etc...
Skimmers block LoS like any other unit, usually blocking more than regular vehicles because theyre on a post. My warboss can shoot over my trukks because hes so tall, but not a wagon because its slightly taller.
Likewise, my Firewarriors may be short little buggers but if a devilfish goes in front of them, they arent THAT short to see under it.
You can however do the current "Fish of Fury" tactic, which i use all the time. Move/fire the units you want to block, then flat-out with the skimmers that were sitting right behind them to move in front and block LoS. Little tricky to do this multiple times especially when trying to advance, but it will allow you to shoot and still be covered.
What would be more useful in a Speed Freaks list utilizing Blitz Brigade? A unit of five Deffkoptas (with either Rokkit Launchas or Kustom Mega Blastas) or two units of three Warbuggies?
zachwho wrote: what are y'all running in a blitz brigade??
I'm thinking about starting one to have some other way of playing, other than moving 180 models around....
I'm currently running 2 units of 20 Boyz with Nob w/ PK and BP, 2 units of 3 MANz with BP and 1 unit of 10 Tankbustas, with their Wagon having a Mek and moar Rokkits
Vineheart01 wrote: Probably 3 units of boyz and 2 tankbustas followed by a MANz missile and a warbiker squad.
I play at 2k so i might be able to do that, havent actually tried to pull the list lol
I wouldn't include the warbikers. It gives thunderfire cannons (one of the most popular units out there) a target they wouldn't otherwise have, and all other firepower that can't hurt the wall of armor is going into those warbikers. I would add Mek Gunz with a couple of traktor Kannons for anti air. If the options are deff koptas or warbuggies, the answer is warbuggies, because it adds more armor to the list. The one advantage with Deff Koptas is that you can scout them alongside the battlewagons to give them cover from shots targeting their side armor.
If going with DeffKoptas, id head in this direction...
CAD 1
Warlord; Bosspole; Warbike; Power Klaw; Da Finkin' Kap
Big Mek; Killsaw; Kustom Force Field; Warbike
Painboy; 'Urty Syringe; Dok's Tools; Warbike; Feel No Pain
3 Deffkoptas; Twin-linked Rokkit Launcha x3; Buzzsaw x1; Hammer of Wrath; Hit & Run; Jink; Relentless; Scout
2 Units of 19 Slugga Boyz and 1 Boss Nob with Bosspole, Shoota and Power Klaw
This CAD's HQ's and Deffkopta's form a unit and provide KFF to as many BW's as possible. They Scout move with the BW's.
CAD 2
Warboss in Mega Armour; Bosspole; Da Lucky Stick
4 Meganobz
2 Units of 19 Slugga Boyz and 1 Boss Nob with Bosspole, Shoota and Power Klaw
The purpose of this CAD is to provide a hard hitting core, capable of taking on nastiness (Im looking at you Knights). This MANZ unit has WS5 AND a MAWB. I can save some points here by dropping the MAWB...he is carrying his Lucky Stick though so Im hesitant to drop him - what would I replace him with?
Um....how exactly are thunderfire cannons a counter to warbikers? i have the SM codex, just not the army. The only mode that ignores cover doesnt pen our armor so its still a 4+ and FNP. Danger tests arent that big a deal either, we take a ton of them as it is anyway (often i have games where the entire unit makes a test for 2-3 turns because of the terrain layout forcing me to do so, or not use the bikers for 1-2 more turns going around crap)
Also the one that ignores cover is S5 so it wounds on a 4+.
With a small blast on any of the modes. Proper spacing, get 2 models at best.
Heavy flamers are a bigger issue than thunderfire.
i have alot of burna boys, I'd like to use them in the blitz brigade,
but I'm not sure what characters would supplement them best. I'd love to use a megaboss, but I'm losing the ability to overwatch. I'd also like to use maddok (love this guy) for his extra punch, fnp, and fearless.
Personally i find the burnas to be the most useless unit in the codex. Tons of flamers sounds cool but unless you get a perfect positioning on your target, you wont kill many models with it. I never understood how the burnawagon even worked because if you move more than 6" you cant shoot and if you move less than 6" you probably arent in range - and nobody with half a brain is going to let that thing get close lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: Um....how exactly are thunderfire cannons a counter to warbikers? i have the SM codex, just not the army. The only mode that ignores cover doesnt pen our armor so its still a 4+ and FNP. Danger tests arent that big a deal either, we take a ton of them as it is anyway (often i have games where the entire unit makes a test for 2-3 turns because of the terrain layout forcing me to do so, or not use the bikers for 1-2 more turns going around crap) Also the one that ignores cover is S5 so it wounds on a 4+.
With a small blast on any of the modes. Proper spacing, get 2 models at best.
Heavy flamers are a bigger issue than thunderfire.
It would average 6-8 hits (possibly as many as 12) because it is Heavy 4 barrage. Wounding on 3's (surface det). So about 5 wounds. You save 3, and 1 more with FNP, so I guess you only lose one warbiker. Most marine armies like to include 2 of these, so you probably are dropping 3 warbikers a turn. Not near as bad as I expected.
I mainly play Tyranids, and TFC can demolish my squads easily, I wasn't thinking of Orks as particularly more resilient. I was wrong.
Vineheart01 wrote: Personally i find the burnas to be the most useless unit in the codex. Tons of flamers sounds cool but unless you get a perfect positioning on your target, you wont kill many models with it. I never understood how the burnawagon even worked because if you move more than 6" you cant shoot and if you move less than 6" you probably arent in range - and nobody with half a brain is going to let that thing get close lol.
i used the burnawagon alot in 5th, there didn't seem to be as near as much speed then either. eldar and tau were a non issue then, with demons deepstriking, greyknights, drop pod, and blood angels being what i faced the most. and with the old kff, a wagon rush was pretty durable.
it was a devastating unit.
but i agree, the game is probably too fast now. the blitz brigade is still something i want to use, but I'll have to.find some better combos and list builds.
Should MANz have a Boss Pole in them? Currently running two squads of three with BP, both in Boarding Plank Wagons, but I don't think BP would be optimal as there are no characters or does the Boss Pole Nob become a character? Or would it be better to give them a Kombi-weapon of sorts?
Vineheart01 wrote: Um....how exactly are thunderfire cannons a counter to warbikers? i have the SM codex, just not the army. The only mode that ignores cover doesnt pen our armor so its still a 4+ and FNP. Danger tests arent that big a deal either, we take a ton of them as it is anyway (often i have games where the entire unit makes a test for 2-3 turns because of the terrain layout forcing me to do so, or not use the bikers for 1-2 more turns going around crap)
Also the one that ignores cover is S5 so it wounds on a 4+.
With a small blast on any of the modes. Proper spacing, get 2 models at best.
Heavy flamers are a bigger issue than thunderfire.
speaking from experience, it's mostly due to the fact they can pile on wounds, as multiple barrage can move around and hit a few more guys than your expecting because of the multiple barrage stuff. even if you can only hit 2, if you roll a direct hit someone can possibly get a few more under the template.
oh im not denying it cant put wounds on them, but wtf cant?
My warbikers regularly face the gun barrels of the entire enemy team and usually come out with only 5-7 dead bikers. ~1600pts usually firing at them turn 1, 3+ jink and fnp is amazing. Ive only lost them once unexpectedly because of a REALLY bad melee luck on my part, not shooting.
Rereading the barrage rules apparently ive been doing it wrong with my lobbas lol. I was under the impression because of that chain-link blast template that it was basically a carpet bombing effect, not focused on the center blast and its edges Also missed the Hit! part letting you overlap...nice..
Still not THAT awesome since its a small blast against bikers. pretty much just as effective as our lobbas would be (wounding on 4s instead of 3s though if using the proper modes) and i still wouldnt be firing them at bikers, thats for infantry that they can reliably splat.
Frozocrone wrote: Should MANz have a Boss Pole in them? Currently running two squads of three with BP, both in Boarding Plank Wagons, but I don't think BP would be optimal as there are no characters or does the Boss Pole Nob become a character? Or would it be better to give them a Kombi-weapon of sorts?
1 model in the MANZ unit is a character by default (boss nob) so yes, they should always have a bosspole. It's mainly for pinning tests but it can come in handy in combat as well.
The only kombi weapon that might be worth it is the scorcha, to thin out stuff before they slam into it.
Bosspole is mandatory imo, pinning tests as well as combat like sn0zcumb3r said.
As for the kombi weapon, i dont take any at all. Rokkits on a bs2 model....right...and Scorchas cant overwatch with SNP which is why i want them to begin with. Yes they can be fired for heavy damage but unless im right in your face i'd be worried im going to kill you out of assault range. Three scorchas will rarely do more damage than 12 powerklaws, especially if it doesnt pen their armor.
Has anyone run the zagstruk formation yet?
I was just looking at it and I have ordered a box of stormboyz which ill combine with some other ork bits to make a 12-20ish models, and if I make 15; then I have the bare minimum for this formation.
I've heard about people running it as a largish group (30+ boys etc), but has anyone tried it much more bare bones?
What im thinking is;
5 Stormboyz
5 stormboyz
5-10 stormboyz Zag, nob + PK
What this gives to a list is 3 units that I can pretty much DS wherever needed to provide threats, now I know 5 orks with no Nob aint exactly scary nor hard to remove, but at 45 pts they seem incredibly well suited to forcing the opponent to focus his attentions elsewhere. For example bringing them in behind some guard heavy weapons teams or an aegis line manned by non-CC orientated units.
The opponent then has the choice of ignoring and getting charged next turn, or putting fire into them/charging them. With 3 units, and pref a comms relay to hopefully get all 3 in at once and at around 5 models I could potentially land bang smack mid their units, with Zags unit providing quite a nasty surprise should he be left to charge next turn.
Or, I can then also run this as 1 unit of 15 should I feel the army im going to face is best suited, perhaps an elitist army where I actually only need threaten 1-2 units rather than MSU's. However, I am thinking that maybe beefing up the squads just a tad, might actually yield greater results, say at the 10 boyz mark, or keeping them small but giving them a Nob and a PK so I can potentially threaten 3 tanks or the like. But at this point i've then got;
45 pt unit for 5
Nob and PK, bumping that up to 80, 85 with a BP. Which is now like double the original cost. where spending an extra 27,36 pts on 3 or 4 more bodies seems much more useful.
Any thoughts?
Also; @Vineheart
Read your post about your dred formation battle, sounded really fun, I was going to comment there but felt like the thread was already de-railed enough But do let us know how the next game goes, got a couple dreads and kans on the workbench as we speak.
I'd rather make it a unit of 20+Zagstrukk and get at least two PK nobz in there. That way, all stormboyz get Zagstrukk shred buff, and the unit is a true force to be reckoned with. Even when you've lost most of your boyz, the two PKs and Zagstrukk should wreck anything they touch. Just make sure that you get them down in cover or out of LoS, so they don't get shot to pieces on arrival.
Also note that nothing prevents Zagstrukk from leaving the unit and joining somewhere else. That way you can deny your opponent the three VP for the formation when necessary.
Ah that is very true, I was thinking even with the 3 units, drop them behind cover, use the 2d6 run they have to spread into the cover, ready for assault next turn. Suppose that works better for 20+ unit as well, as even if i did manage to land bang smack in the middle of a gunline with a 20 blob, there still gona take some serious punishment, may as well plop them in cover, then let them; move, 2d6 run and 2d6 assault. I mean if I cant reach something with that then the cover I chose was quite clearly way too far away
Umm in the suppliment the formation states if you form the 3 units into 1, zag can't leave. But if you don't form them up then yeh i assume he can (as like you said nothing prevents him leaving).
As a side note I also considered using the 2x5 man barebones as a cover save, same way people have suggested with the kommandos formation. But without stealth/shoud probably nowhere near as effective (actually yeh without the re-rolls too not great). But Zag and snikrot formation? that could be fun
I would suggest to take also the 3rd nob with nothing , or just a big choppa, to take unwanted challenge. Even if Zagstrukk is a challenge beast in this formation, there will be challenges he better not faces,
I am afraid the formation rule specifies that zagstruk can't leave the unit if we combine the 3 mobs ;(
But all is not lost ;p it counts "as 3 units" when destroyed, not necessarily 3 VP (depends on the mission type)
I have some questions for the Orkimedes of this thread:
1) Has anyone got any experience with the Chinork? It's damn near my favourite model, and I love the idea of it ferrying some Kommando's or Flash Gitz or something into battle!
2) The Grot Mega Tank. How do these go? I love the looks of it, and just worry that people will be scared off because it's FW.
3) The Kill Blasta and Kill Bursta are just dead sexy. Try as I may, Google just hasn't bought up anything about their usefulness in the field.
4) Morka/Gorkanaut/Stompa. How are people finding these in regular games? I would LOVE to get a Stompa, but would settle for a Morka/Gorkanaut in it's place if the Stompa is going to get called OP.
P.S. First time Ork player. They have always been at the back of my mind as the army I want to do, but have never been able to find a list I like. Sorry if the questions are pretty newbish!
Stompa is not OP. It might be frightening for an unprepared enemy but it's not only killable but also prone to getting outmaneuvred. It's a good LOW nevertheless.
XC18 wrote: Not a rule question but something a bit unclear for me.
In a Boyz mob, add 1 each to change all to shootas, add 10 to upgrade 1 boy into a nob boss.
Therefore, in shootas mob: the nob is 1pt more expensive than in slugga mob?
Sorry if this is obvious, I just never realised.
It's actually a bit unclear.
For example, you have a mob of 10 boyz. You want 1 special and nob. You equip it with shootas. Now there are 2 possible poit costs depending on how you read the rule:
1. You interpret it so that for every model you pay 1 pt. So, you pay 10 pts.
2. You interpret it so that for every model that can replace a slugga with a shoota, you pay 1 pts. So, the special and nob (cause he can have shoota for free from ranged weapons) don't have sluggas and thus can't exchange them for shootas. You pay 8 pts.
Generally, everyone agrees that there's no need to pay extra points for the upgrades you don't get - specials still don'g get shootas cause they wield specials and nob can allready have a free shoota and thus doesn't need to replace it with an identical 1 pt shoota. But sometimes, people just love to play rule lawhers - lots of examples on YMDC where even the most obvious rules get twisted to the point of being silly and broken. Like: "you can't shoot a quad-gun with artillery grots cause they have no ranged weapons, thus can't shoot it INSTEAD of their weapons as written in rules. Also, you can't charge with spawns cause the models have no eyes, thus can't see the opponent and you can't declare charge on something out of your line of sight. Oh, i feel so horny when twist the rules this way..."
If you want it dead - tankbustas and pk warbosses. Bullyboyz with 1-2 killsaws. Even killsaw meks are doing fine - though, i'd not recommend abusing killsaw meks in a tac list.
But we have great potential for just tarpitting it and/or blocking. Boyz, grots, trucks, whatever - all will do. The more stuff you have - the more realistic it becomes to invalidate a super-heavy. And we've got lots of stuff.
Tankbustas are all but a hard counter. That many meltabombs = bad news for any vehicle in Close Combat, especially given that Tankbustas have the Tank Hunters USR (reroll Armour Pen).
Keep in mind the Knight is only going to be able to kill 3 at most of your boyz before I1 and who cares how many will die from the Stomp Attacks. The cataclysmic explosion from when it dies probably would have killed them anyway lol.
10 Tankbustas is 145pts. A Knight is 375pts. Take 2 groups of 10 and you're still cheaper than a single knight.
hey all looking for some experienced advice on uses of the following formations:
the waaaagh council, the bully boyz, and the dread mob.
on the council, is it best to equip all characters that can have megaarmor with it? so the big mek and the two warbosses. what codex do the characters draw their gifts from? waaagh ghaz or the parent codex? when using this formation, does it count as using a LoW, since ghaz is one but I'm not technically purchasing him as one, but a requirement of this formation.
bullyboyz, i don't know how else to use them, expect maybe running them with the council and a blitz formation?
does anyone have any suggestions on how to make a dread mob work? run both gorkanaughts, ccw dreads and shooty cans?
thanks for any and all suggestions, I'm even thinking of trying to fit a greentide in with a dread mob... idk if its possible though
zachwho wrote: hey all looking for some experienced advice on uses of the following formations:
bullyboyz, i don't know how else to use them, expect maybe running them with the council and a blitz formation?
Bully boyz are great with Blitz brigade or just 3 wagonz. Some people like putting them in trucks. Works well when you get the 1-st turn. Doesn't really work when you get 2-d. But that's a matter of preference.
does anyone have any suggestions on how to make a dread mob work? run both gorkanaughts, ccw dreads and shooty cans?
thanks for any and all suggestions, I'm even thinking of trying to fit a greentide in with a dread mob... idk if its possible though
Dread mob needs a warboss to utilise their main strength - 'ere we go. You can either put him in a 30-strong footslogging squad with a painboss or make a biker star which is durable enough on it's own and will draw some s6-8 fire away from your walkers. It's a nice formation as it is but don't expect to win every game - especially vs something competitive.
Greentide doesn't synchronise quite well with the dread mob. Just cause you both need your boyz and walkers at the front and there's rarely enough space, so you're wasting 1 turn which is vital.
zachwho wrote: hey all looking for some experienced advice on uses of the following formations:
bullyboyz, i don't know how else to use them, expect maybe running them with the council and a blitz formation?
Bully boyz are great with Blitz brigade or just 3 wagonz. Some people like putting them in trucks. Works well when you get the 1-st turn. Doesn't really work when you get 2-d. But that's a matter of preference.
It seems to me that Bully Boyz are begging for a speedfreaksesq trukk spam list. Something like this:
Spoiler:
Bully Boyz:
5 Manz in Trukk (RR)
5 Manz in Trukk (RR)
5 Manz in Trukk (RR)
CAD Warboss on Bike with PK and DA 'Finking Kap (or Lucky Stikk)
Painboy on Bike with Boss pole.
Mek with Rokkit
10 Slugga Boyz w/ Nob(BC, BP) in Trukk (RR)
10 Slugga Boyz w/ Nob(BC, BP) in Trukk (RR)
10 Slugga Boyz w/ Nob(BC, BP) in Trukk (RR)
10 Slugga Boyz w/ Nob(BC, BP) in Trukk (RR)
I like DA 'Finking Kap because it lets you infiltrate the MANZ and Warbikers most of the time, and you often have a chance to get Stealth in Ruins or Night Fighting. If you do have 2nd turn, put your Warbikers out front of your trukks. Jink if they get targeted by anything. This gives you Trukks at least a 5+ cover save. If you lose a MANZ trukk, shift the MANZ over to one of the Trukks with Boyz riding in it.
zachwho wrote: hey all looking for some experienced advice on uses of the following formations:
bullyboyz, i don't know how else to use them, expect maybe running them with the council and a blitz formation?
Bully boyz are great with Blitz brigade or just 3 wagonz. Some people like putting them in trucks. Works well when you get the 1-st turn. Doesn't really work when you get 2-d. But that's a matter of preference.
It seems to me that Bully Boyz are begging for a speedfreaksesq trukk spam list. Something like this:
Spoiler:
Bully Boyz:
5 Manz in Trukk (RR)
5 Manz in Trukk (RR)
5 Manz in Trukk (RR)
CAD Warboss on Bike with PK and DA 'Finking Kap (or Lucky Stikk)
Painboy on Bike with Boss pole.
Mek with Rokkit
10 Slugga Boyz w/ Nob(BC, BP) in Trukk (RR)
10 Slugga Boyz w/ Nob(BC, BP) in Trukk (RR)
10 Slugga Boyz w/ Nob(BC, BP) in Trukk (RR)
10 Slugga Boyz w/ Nob(BC, BP) in Trukk (RR)
I like DA 'Finking Kap because it lets you infiltrate the MANZ and Warbikers most of the time, and you often have a chance to get Stealth in Ruins or Night Fighting. If you do have 2nd turn, put your Warbikers out front of your trukks. Jink if they get targeted by anything. This gives you Trukks at least a 5+ cover save. If you lose a MANZ trukk, shift the MANZ over to one of the Trukks with Boyz riding in it.
I haven't had any experience with the bully boys, but to me I would always think that bringing a couple extra trukks would be a very strong force multipler. As lets be honest, those MANZ in that formation are pretty nasty, like Koooaei said, works well on first turn, but not so much second. Which I am assuming is due to those trukks being popped and now your MANZ are walking. Simply by bringing a couple extra trukks it means you can pick up which ever unit of MANZ gets their trukk popped (as they aren't likely to take any wounds from it either) and have them crashing back into action simply a turn later. Also, for that measely 30 pts, you dont need to disembark that boys unit to have the MANZ shuffle over, you can simply catapult that slugga trukk straight forwards. So this way you 'hopefully' have no units footslogging it.
I'd heavily advice against fielding that many trukks. If your opponent has a decent amount of high-rate, medium strength shooting, he can easily strand half your army if he gets first turn, pretty much losing you the game right there. You can safely assume that all your MANz will be losing their trukk as soon as your opponent gets too shoot, just because the massive difference in power compared to those boyz. Target saturation only works when all targets are of the same value. Just spamming AV10 and hoping for your opponent to pick the wrong trukks to shoot isn't going to help at all.
For that reason, any more than two units of trukkboyz would be a waste of points. Another unit of warbikers would add much more to your army, as would larger squads of buggies or koptaz. More mek gunz would also work well, since T7 draws attention from the same guns as AV10.
Personally, I'd just combine the blitz brigade with bully boyz, put boyz with warboss or painboy in the other two trukks, add a support unit of your choice and call it a day.
As for the Council of Waaagh!, it's not a very competitive choice, and most equipment is pretty obvious. Give the warbosses MA (the unit is S&P anyways thanks to Ghaz), buy the mega-force field relic for the big mek, keep the nob unit as cheap as possible and buy the dedicated battlewagon. Add relics as you see fit, though most are just over-costed gimmicks. Also note that a mek without MA can have both the MFF and a SAG.
The only less obvious option is putting the Mek and the nobz on bikes to bump average toughness to 5. It also allows you to pull shenanigans with bikes, like driving 12" without leaving coherency and pulling the slow parts of the unit into combats they couldn't have reached otherwise or spreading the unit far enough to enable multi-charges (who cares about a charge bonus when you have a metric ton of S10 attacks and rampage).
On the other hand, you can purchase fast attacks empty trucks to screen the full ones or to place this 3 full trucks close with the ones so that you could embark and still go 24'. That'd force the opopnent to waste shots on empty trucks.
"Screen" means providing 5+ cover, there is no way to position a trukk model to make it completely blocks sight to a trukk behind it. You could do pretty much the same by just driving them behind terrain. A mob of Warbikers also covers 25% of a trukk, so no need to waste points on useless vehicles.
Either way, 5+ cover is not going to prevent your opponent from killing three trukks, he'll just ignore the empty trukks. In addition, when there are trukks in front of them, the MANz didn't go at full speed.
To be honest, the Bully Boyz plus battlewagons or a blitz brigade is just nasty.
The Bully Boyz formation takes away the biggest problem with mega armour by making them fearless. WS5 is just a bonus.
The only other weakness is speed. They can't afford to footslog, but trukks are made of wafers. Battlewagons give you a unit which remains a credible threat after they've dumped out their troops, and have enough transport capacity to allow you to scale up the bully boyz units if you want to.
Jidmah wrote:
As for the Council of Waaagh!, it's not a very competitive choice, and most equipment is pretty obvious. Give the warbosses MA (the unit is S&P anyways thanks to Ghaz), buy the mega-force field relic for the big mek, keep the nob unit as cheap as possible and buy the dedicated battlewagon. Add relics as you see fit, though most are just over-costed gimmicks. Also note that a mek without MA can have both the MFF and a SAG.
The only less obvious option is putting the Mek and the nobz on bikes to bump average toughness to 5. It also allows you to pull shenanigans with bikes, like driving 12" without leaving coherency and pulling the slow parts of the unit into combats they couldn't have reached otherwise or spreading the unit far enough to enable multi-charges (who cares about a charge bonus when you have a metric ton of S10 attacks and rampage).
This sounds hilarious fun simply in what you'd be able to convert and what would actually be in the unit Ghaz,
2 biker bosses
a SAG and MFF mek
and then the rest! Would look so funny on field, having the bikes assault ahead of the unit as the rear end slowly wander in to the fray
Jidmah wrote:"Screen" means providing 5+ cover, there is no way to position a trukk model to make it completely blocks sight to a trukk behind it. You could do pretty much the same by just driving them behind terrain. A mob of Warbikers also covers 25% of a trukk, so no need to waste points on useless vehicles.
Either way, 5+ cover is not going to prevent your opponent from killing three trukks, he'll just ignore the empty trukks. In addition, when there are trukks in front of them, the MANz didn't go at full speed.
I think what he's suggesting is that the MANZ stand outsside the empty trukks, with a couple spare. That way which ever he blows up, you get into the others. The trukks will LOS the MANZ and even if they are caught in the explosion they are MANz. I still dont think that less than 100 points spent on spare trukks is in anyway a 'waste' of points. it provides you with mobility redundancy, that can be used as later turn transport to objectives, as LOS blocks to open field boys. The thing I see with bully boys in comparison to MANz missiles and trukk boys is this; Trukk boys you target saturate with similar threat units; therefore nullifying his target choice, in this case you want to hit with simply as many trukks as possible. MANz missiles on the other hand are cheap instant threats that the enemy simply must engage or they will chew back their points cost quite happily.
Whereas; bullyboys are like you said; a much more of a threat than the rest of the trukk boys, so they will be main priority. So by holding a spare trukk for each essentially allows you to negate their first turn shooting. As if they manage to strand 1-2 of the bullyboy units and then next turn they are already back in a trukk his shooting has been negated by those 100 points. Would you pay 100 pts to effectively get first turn? If one of those MANz units makes it into combat a turn earlier through the use of a spare trukk im pretty confident they'd make those points back in that turn.
Jidmah wrote:"Screen" means providing 5+ cover, there is no way to position a trukk model to make it completely blocks sight to a trukk behind it. You could do pretty much the same by just driving them behind terrain. A mob of Warbikers also covers 25% of a trukk, so no need to waste points on useless vehicles.
Either way, 5+ cover is not going to prevent your opponent from killing three trukks, he'll just ignore the empty trukks. In addition, when there are trukks in front of them, the MANz didn't go at full speed.
I think what he's suggesting is that the MANZ stand outsside the empty trukks, with a couple spare. That way which ever he blows up, you get into the others. The trukks will LOS the MANZ and even if they are caught in the explosion they are MANz. I still dont think that less than 100 points spent on spare trukks is in anyway a 'waste' of points. it provides you with mobility redundancy, that can be used as later turn transport to objectives, as LOS blocks to open field boys.
Yep, that was the 2-d part of my proposition. Once again, Solar Shock easilly gets the whole picture!
And also, i don't find it impossible to completely block los to one truck with another. It just needs some perspective positioning. It won't block 100% of field but usually the opponent doesn't have ALL his line denced with anti-tank.
I see, that might work sometimes, but even six trukks isn't that hard to stop, plus you're now spending 70 points per unit on trukks, only 40-50 points short of getting a battlewagon.
The issue with trukks is that you can pretty much always see something through their wheels, through the gap between the drivers and the passengers or over the heads of the drivers. The roll bar of the trukk is a shootable piece and pretty much always visible over a trukk standing in front of it. It is possible to block sight to a single gun by placing two trukks facing the gun right behind each other, but minimal movement make the trukk behind it visible again. When using a laser-pointer and counting any flicker of red light on the trukk as shootable (obviously not reflections... and yes, somebody tried that against me), you'll almost always find something sticking out to be shot.
Anti-tank isn't needed to kill trukks, anything with S6 and up will do a good job destroying them, actual anti-tank will just tear right through them. A trukk penned by something with AP1 is all but dead. For that reason target saturation doesn't really work, too many guns which are commonly used across all armies do a good job at killing them.
Therefore, you aren't going to fix the issue of your mini-death-stars losing their flimsy transport by simply throwing more flimsy transports to shoot in the mix. If your opponent's S6-7 weapons are busy shooting the warbikers racing at them, high strength AP3 weaponry is shooting the mek gunz that are destroying his vehicles or infantry and crashing his planes and his lascannons/meltas are trying to stop a battlewagon which is delivering a MA Stikk Warboss into his ranks, then your trukks have a good chance of survival. When he just has to pick trukks from most important to least important, no unit of "two wound terminators with chainfists, fearless and WS5!" is going to be riding a trukk for long.
Trukks for bully boyz is very dicey. I always buy mine battlewagons, it is just a better option. You could then chuck some trukk boyz in there because your opponent is in some serious trouble with three wagons of fearless meganobz steaming 18" turn 1 straight down the pipe. It will force them to react to you rather than pick away.
As far as those trukk boyz, while they will mess you up if they get first turn, if you get first turn you will set them up for a serious nightmare scenario. 18" battlewagons and 24" trukks will leave you just shrugging at them as they try to decide how or what to shoot.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I can agree with all the points Jidmah is stating.
But in continuation of the debate; The idea of the amount of spare trukks becomeing excessive, does then naturally lead to why not BWs? But at the same time, At the initial onset;
Its turn 1, your going second, you are on the edge of your deployment and all your bullyboy trukks have been destroyed. If you dont have any other form of transport how are they getting across the table? thats gona be 3-4 turns of walking.
At this point its irrelevant what else is in the list, its irrelevant whether your going to win or lose(in regards to the bullyboys here), because at this point those bully boys are doing nothing (possibly they will be ensuring units wont come towards your table edge and a few other little things), but by and large they are currently worth not a lot of points. The enemy isn't going to shoot them, he's now moved down the priority chain and whatever else that is a threat in your army is next; whether thats more trukks he's simply going to cut through or side armour on BWs.
But with 3 trukks, you are for 100 points basically re-activating the threat of those bullyboys, they then again become something that he will have to deal with, they are no longer dead in the water. So they are a turn behind the other trukks or whatever else is in your army, but now instead of simply;
Shoot bully trukks
Shoot boys trukks
Shoot boys
win game
Hes got to think, well if I shoot those boys trukks I leave the MANZ, who are something pretty scary, or shoot the bully boys again, yeh they are now walking again if he does shoot them, but it also means for 2 whole turns hes taken out 6 trukks (obviously not in all cases will he take six, could be none could be all, this is a dice game and some lists will be hard counters others wont be able to handle it.), your boys are now probably gona get into assault, possibly unharmed, which isn't something to scoff at, those boys will still deal quite a lot of damage, tie up units and potentially allow your MANz to see combat.
So now you force decisions;
Case 1;
Shoot bully trukks
Shoot re-embarked bully trukks
Shoot boys trukks
(in this case the boys are now assaulting/ have already assaulted)
Case 2;
Shoot bully trukks
shoot boys trukks
Shoot bullys trukks
In this case your possibly not assaulting, but your units including your MANz are on his door steps.
Im not trying to say bully boys; trukks > wagons
I just dont think its as simple as wagons being the only effective thing for their transport. I really want to test this now But I dont have bullyboys might bring an extra trukk to a couple games and see how it pans out.
Issue is, those trukk boyz aren't scary at all, so there is little to reason to shoot them over the bully boyz' trukks.
From experience, most 1500 point armies can take out 3, maybe 4 trukks in one turn if they put their mind to it and they are neither tailoring nor bringing a crappy list. At 1750/1850 four trukks are pretty much a given, at 2000 they might even catch a fifth one. When facing armies exceptionally well equipped to handle AV10, which includes, but is not limited to most common eldar or tau lists, you can easily increase that number by 50%.
Note that I'm also not arguing against putting bully boyz in trukks. I'm just saying that you need some actual threats to draw fire from them if you do. Trukk boyz manage to kill two squads of troops if you're lucky, there is no way that someone is going to shoot them instead of five MANz that murder everything they touch.
I see where you guys are coming from dismissing trukks as a viable transport for bully boyz. I haven't run them in Trukks, or Battlewagons or seen them played. But I have played against Trukks many, many times, and I think you are underestimating their durability. With 'Da Finkin Kap you are probably going to get either night fighting, stealth in ruins or infiltrate. So you are looking at a 4+ cover for your Trukks on turn 1, and a reasonable chance that you can hide 2-3 out of LOS.
In those situations, you are losing 2 trukks at most, so you Bully Boyz are getting moved 24" Your Warbikers are moving, and you've got a turn 2 charge.
I am not a fan of Bully Boyz in a Blitz Brigade, because
1) Most tournaments don't let you run 2 formations.
2) That is a ton of points. At 1850 you don't have room for basically anything else.
Taking a dedicated BW for each Bully Boy group is a tad more attractive, but still seems excessive.
Jidmah is correct. If you see megas in trukks and boyz in trukks, the megaz will be the ones getting the lead thrown at them. Which is really why you need to spring for wagons on them.
Now all of this assumes you don't get turn 1. So really, you could still be fine half the time, or even slightly more than half the time give n the vagaries of random dice rolling. You would also get to deploy second and place units in cover, behind buildings, etc, giving them even more of a chance to survive, but going with the wagons is just a better choice when you are investing so much in that formation.
Jidmah wrote: I see, that might work sometimes, but even six trukks isn't that hard to stop, plus you're now spending 70 points per unit on trukks, only 40-50 points short of getting a battlewagon.
The issue with trukks is that you can pretty much always see something through their wheels, through the gap between the drivers and the passengers or over the heads of the drivers. The roll bar of the trukk is a shootable piece and pretty much always visible over a trukk standing in front of it. It is possible to block sight to a single gun by placing two trukks facing the gun right behind each other, but minimal movement make the trukk behind it visible again. When using a laser-pointer and counting any flicker of red light on the trukk as shootable (obviously not reflections... and yes, somebody tried that against me), you'll almost always find something sticking out to be shot.
Anti-tank isn't needed to kill trukks, anything with S6 and up will do a good job destroying them, actual anti-tank will just tear right through them. A trukk penned by something with AP1 is all but dead. For that reason target saturation doesn't really work, too many guns which are commonly used across all armies do a good job at killing them.
Therefore, you aren't going to fix the issue of your mini-death-stars losing their flimsy transport by simply throwing more flimsy transports to shoot in the mix. If your opponent's S6-7 weapons are busy shooting the warbikers racing at them, high strength AP3 weaponry is shooting the mek gunz that are destroying his vehicles or infantry and crashing his planes and his lascannons/meltas are trying to stop a battlewagon which is delivering a MA Stikk Warboss into his ranks, then your trukks have a good chance of survival. When he just has to pick trukks from most important to least important, no unit of "two wound terminators with chainfists, fearless and WS5!" is going to be riding a trukk for long.
While i agree with most points, i'm providing suggestions to some actual tactics with trucks. I see them having advantage over wagonz in some cases.
For example, if the opponent is loaded with meltadrop, grav guns, haywire - not uncommon now - truck's durability is on par with a wagon. And if you have 2 trucks, it's even better cause you're not gona be stuck in place and could use an empty one for your advantage. Not once have i won games thanks to a couple of grots or an empty truck blocking the way.
On the other hand, if the opponent is not short on s5-8 dakka, it's quite the opposite.
Currently, it all depends on your meta. And that's why it's not correct to say that wagonz are clearly better than trucks.That's exactrly the reason to have them both.
tag8833 wrote: I see where you guys are coming from dismissing trukks as a viable transport for bully boyz. I haven't run them in Trukks, or Battlewagons or seen them played. But I have played against Trukks many, many times, and I think you are underestimating their durability. With 'Da Finkin Kap you are probably going to get either night fighting, stealth in ruins or infiltrate. So you are looking at a 4+ cover for your Trukks on turn 1, and a reasonable chance that you can hide 2-3 out of LOS.
In those situations, you are losing 2 trukks at most, so you Bully Boyz are getting moved 24" Your Warbikers are moving, and you've got a turn 2 charge.
Since you brought up tournaments, do yours really have that much LoS blocking terrain? When you go to a store here (tournament or not) you get one big piece in the middle an a bunch of GW ruins and forest for the rest of the board. Since you can't start directly behind the LoS blocker, I find it hard to hide more than one trukk unless my battlewagons are doing the hiding.
Otherwise agree, the thinking cap is probably a good thing to bring to protect the trukks. Putting a KFF with the bikers might also be a possibility, considering that bully boyz are threatening enough to use cover-ignoring buffs against them. Again, I can see bully boyz in trukks working, but trukk boyz won't have anything to do with that.
I am not a fan of Bully Boyz in a Blitz Brigade, because 1) Most tournaments don't let you run 2 formations. 2) That is a ton of points. At 1850 you don't have room for basically anything else.
Taking a dedicated BW for each Bully Boy group is a tad more attractive, but still seems excessive.
The bully boy formation is 775, assuming boss pole and two killsaws on every unit, the blitz brigade is 575 with just rams (which is how I usually run my wagons). Add a MA Stikk Warboss (125) and a unit of boyz with nob, pk and bp for him to lead (148) and another one for the last BW (160). Leaves you with 67 points to spend on a pain boyz, a mek, a shoota boy upgrade, some kannons or lobbas or a pair of traktor kannons. You could also drop the PK of the nob accompanying the warboss for more points. Keep in mind that you are slinging three (four if you count the MA Stikk Warboss) vehicle-crushing death-stars with scout across the board, the actual need for support is limited.
Interesting points Glad this thread is able to remain an actual debate without someone getting their panties twisted; but saying that, jidmah always appears to remain cool, unless ofc under that calm and pleasant poster is a nerd raging, taking a baseball bat to his keyboard everytime we reply
I think your right, with only trukk boys as support your probably not threatening enough with all your main killy units being the bully boys. And i will admit, the advantage of the blitz brigade in combo with bullyboys is simply that they are scouting and rather close for comfort.
hadn't looked at the points, but thats pretty cheap, didn't think you'd get the bullyboys, the blitz, a warboss and 2 units into 1500, that would be a very scary list no need for redundancy trukks in there!
Jidmah and everyone else, what are your thoughts on mini-stars with orks? Ive just been constantly allured by the idea of warbosses run almost bare, maybe with the relic BC's in boys units in wagons, acting more like; every ork unit has some kind of small power house, with a nice pool of wounds. But I always seem to think that for the points cost of each I may as well just have more units of boys/put more eggs into one basket and go for the full MA, DLS loadout; who will destroy most things.
tag8833 wrote: I see where you guys are coming from dismissing trukks as a viable transport for bully boyz. I haven't run them in Trukks, or Battlewagons or seen them played. But I have played against Trukks many, many times, and I think you are underestimating their durability. With 'Da Finkin Kap you are probably going to get either night fighting, stealth in ruins or infiltrate. So you are looking at a 4+ cover for your Trukks on turn 1, and a reasonable chance that you can hide 2-3 out of LOS.
In those situations, you are losing 2 trukks at most, so you Bully Boyz are getting moved 24" Your Warbikers are moving, and you've got a turn 2 charge.
Since you brought up tournaments, do yours really have that much LoS blocking terrain? When you go to a store here (tournament or not) you get one big piece in the middle an a bunch of GW ruins and forest for the rest of the board. Since you can't start directly behind the LoS blocker, I find it hard to hide more than one trukk unless my battlewagons are doing the hiding.
Well, I'm doing my best to mirror BAO terrain at my Tourney next week. Generally, yes, you've got 2 ruins big enough to provide 4+ or maybe even 3+ cover to a Trukk in your deployment, and then a big LOS blocker in the middle. If you roll master of Ambush: 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/5 + 1/5 = 73% of the time then you can infiltrate behind the big LOS blocker.
Going beyond that, my meta is increasingly adopting Tourney FAQ's since GW has been so incompetant when it comes to releasing FAQ's. Along with that comes a bit of a social contract that you run 2 detachments unless you pre-negotiate something else.
Jidmah wrote: Otherwise agree, the thinking cap is probably a good thing to bring to protect the trukks. Putting a KFF with the bikers might also be a possibility, considering that bully boyz are threatening enough to use cover-ignoring buffs against them. Again, I can see bully boyz in trukks working, but trukk boyz won't have anything to do with that.
Most armies have a limit to their ignore cover options, and the Warbikers are a better target for that stuff usually.
Jidmah wrote: The bully boy formation is 775, assuming boss pole and two killsaws on every unit, the blitz brigade is 575 with just rams (which is how I usually run my wagons). Add a MA Stikk Warboss (125) and a unit of boyz with nob, pk and bp for him to lead (148) and another one for the last BW (160). Leaves you with 67 points to spend on a pain boyz, a mek, a shoota boy upgrade, some kannons or lobbas or a pair of traktor kannons. You could also drop the PK of the nob accompanying the warboss for more points.
Keep in mind that you are slinging three (four if you count the MA Stikk Warboss) vehicle-crushing death-stars with scout across the board, the actual need for support is limited.
Interesting that you put Killsaws and BP on your Bully Boyz. I feel like they are good enough base. They are fearless, so no need for BP, and with 5 PKs per unit, armor bane isn't as critical.
Right, you don't need the boss pole at all. Since I don't own that many MANz, I field 2x 5 at max, and when I do they get them this loadout.
The killsaws are for taking down things like knights or soulgrinders, since you won't have that many PKs left after they struck first and you don't really have the points to bring anything else to handle them.
One thing is for certain. Inside the vacuum there is no single indestructible ork unit. Everything we do has a better chance of success with each extra identical unit on the field.
For every two battlewagonz with five bully boyz you can have five trukkz with boyz and a PK nob in each. At 650 to 700 points nobody should be turn one destroying all those vehicles. At 1800+ if your list just wants to get stuck in then ideally you need 4/5/6 wagonz or 14-16 trukkz. Not just two wagonz or four trukkz.
If you want to use trukkz that is how you do it. Take two CADs, fourteen trukkz and fill them with units that are all similar in points and purpose. They can't shoot all of it.
They can shoot half of it, and you just paid points to split your army into a slow and a fast portion, one of the biggest mistakes you can do as an ork when building lists.
No matter how many trukks you bring, your list will still be bad. Keep trukk boyz at a minimum and bring actually dangerous fast units like warbikers and you'll be good.
Besides that, four battlewagons are plenty at 2000, the only reason to bring a fifth one is the blitz brigade, I can see no reason for bringing a sixth. You're just wasting points and slots that could have been used on support choices at that point.
There are reasons not to spam explictly trucks or explictly battlewagons. Hardcounters. You're usually better off with partly trucks, partly wagonz. Besides, you can easilly hide trucks behind wagonz if/when needed. There are some situations where the benefits usually outweigh the dangers, though - blitz brigade for higher pt games. Or more trucks when playing at lower pt games cause usually 1 wagon won't fit well in a game below 750 pts.
I say there's alwayz place for a truck in the list even if you're footslogging. There's no bad in a single truck with 'ard boyz or manz. And here's why:
- A single truck is easy to hide at start.
- You can freely place it in reserves if you feel it's gona be more benefical and plenty of other stuff will still be on board. And this way you're following one of the most important concepts of our army - timing. Also, with vanguard deployment, reserves are just like outflanks from a pre-determined table edge.
- Spacing is a huge problem for footsloggas. Usually, you can effectively put only a limited ammount of spread-out footslogging orks at the front. Usually that's around 3 squads. Or a greentide in the middle and probably 1-2 lesser squads on the flanks. Thus, a truck might prove useful for that extra push where needed. I think it's more or less obvious for every horde player and doesn't need further clarification.
Personally, i use a single truck with my footsloggas. And am gona try out a 10-strong squad of stormboyz. I love how they can pull a 24-28' more or less reliable charge on the WAAAGH!
Fully agree, I usually try to fit a trukk in my battlewagon lists as well, at 2000 even a second one. Having the option to flank the unit or putting an additional PK into combat against a tough opponent is invaluable.
I tell you what though. You could almost save the statistical one pen on a trukk by the time you talk about destroying 6+ trukkz in a turn :p .
Devils advocate here really. But I would like to think that scenario isn't soo grim. A gun line designed to shoot half my trukkz turn one should likely be overwhelmed by half my boyz in melee turn two? A mobile shooty army capable of destroying 7 trukkz can't escape to the center of the board because they stranded my now slow portion there on turn one.
But yes I don't plan to buy that many trukkz and will run a mix. I do think with two CADs new spam armies should be looked at.
Rismonite wrote: I tell you what though. You could almost save the statistical one pen on a trukk by the time you talk about destroying 6+ trukkz in a turn :p .
In my experience, most trukks die to being glanced to death by weapons similar to autocannons. Every other true anti-tank weapon will also take one down, and gauss or haywire will also take a toll on them. Also keep in mind that immobilized is pretty much the same as destroyed for a trukk.
Devils advocate here really. But I would like to think that scenario isn't soo grim. A gun line designed to shoot half my trukkz turn one should likely be overwhelmed by half my boyz in melee turn two?
Why should it? We're talking about a fully intact gunline here, including counter-charge units like wraith knights, riptides or GKT, fighting six to eight units that can barely handle a unit of troops on their own. In worst case, you're facing one or more imperial knights, with no real way to handle them but piling on multiple units.
A mobile shooty army capable of destroying 7 trukkz can't escape to the center of the board because they stranded my now slow portion there on turn one.
The can escape to the side though, and they get two turns of shooting before you arrive.
But yes I don't plan to buy that many trukkz and will run a mix. I do think with two CADs new spam armies should be looked at.
See, the thing is that there are basically two reasons to spam any given unit.
The first reason is that the unit is exceptionally low costed for its power and spamming it would make your army a lot better than spending those points on other things. Annihilation Barges and Wave Serpents would be a prime example of this. This is not true for trukk boyz. The codex is full of units that can do their job better.
The second reason is that your opponent only has limited capabilities to handle a given unit and thus is not able to use a good chunk of his army when you spam that unit. This isn't true for trukks either. Outside of some S3 guns and some poison weapons everyone can hurt them. They don't die to bolters anymore, but bolters (shurikens, shootas...) will definitely help in their demise and are far from being wasted. This also true for footsloggers, but footsloggers don't have the down-side of getting split up in two handleable bits.
Trukkboyz are not an overly efficient unit, they don't archive target saturation, and they are not an all-upsides choice. For those two reasons, spamming trukks will not improve your army.
"Slow and Purposeful A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turbo-boost, move Flat Out…"
Kinda sounds like the rules are written to stop such a thing.
Also what do you guy’s think of spamming Stormboys? For example Two squads of 30?
Automatically Appended Next Post: The mega armor problem occurred to me when I was trying to figure out why someone would field Nobs.
The rule only applies to the actual unit and not anything that happens to transport them. Besides trukks can't actually join the unit nor the other way around, the unit is simply embarking on the vehicle, it's not fusing the two units together. Furthermore, the main rulebook also specifies which USR applies to both the unit's transport and the unit itself, like Infiltrate and Scout, of which SnP is not part of.
Also, in the case of stormboyz, taking 30 is a bit overkill, particularly two of them because it makes them both unwieldy and too big a points sink for such a fragile but speedy unit. It's better to go for smaller units and spread the rest of the points you have onto other fast/deadly units to maximize threat saturation. That way it forces your opponent to split up his fire and make it more likely for either your stormboyz or other units to make it. So 2 medium sized stormboy squads alongside trukk boyz would arguably be more effective.
Every time i've tried large blobs of stormboyz, they weren't worth it. Even a Zaggy unit with 3 nobz. They're just too fragile for the points and you can't effectively hide large blobs. They're also harder to maneuvre.
But ~10 strong unit with a pk/bp nob is great. Especially for footsloggas. Can be hidden away, can easier move over others due to smaller footprint. Still pose a 22-27" threat on WAAAGH!
As cool as it sounds to take that many ws5 fearless meganobz - especially in conjunction with the blitz brigade - I would have thought it was overkill that left you vulnerable to hard counters.
In games I have played, units of just three regular meganobz are plenty to demolish the things that meganobz are actually designed to kill. For everything else, I.e. hordes and terminators, boyz are much more points efficient.
If I were to take the bully boyz, then I would probably give them a kombi-skorcha per squad to add a bit of versatility. I would also add grotsnik in the CAD (he can still join a unit from another detachment, right?).
dont even know where to begin.......22 pages of orkiness!! thats my kinda of love. i have a question to add. what is the best way to play against centurions? any and all ideas are greatly appreciated
But quite frankly, unless you ally in something, orks have no access to proper psychic defense vs armies built around warp charge generation. Seer councils, daemons, grey knights, they will all have more 
.....i see the word "
You'd still want to Turbo round one I suppose. 
, stompa and 8 boyz were the only things left standing by the end of the game. I lost, obviously, and Stompa had about 6 hull points taken off by the end of the game, but He would have been dead if it weren't for the 4 repair rolls each turn ( I only had one squad of lootas with 3 meks in there, not 2)
