So I am throwing together a little list for a fun game this saturday. My main concern is that I am putting too many points into TWC. A unit of 4 TWC (3 storm shields, 2 claws, 1 hammer, 1 maul) with an iron priest +2 wolves and a wolf priest to go with it. That just seems like a seriously massive investment for a single unit. Sure they should tear anything they touch apart, but I feel like I don't have enough units turn 1.
I also have 5GH in stormwolf, axe/shield dread in pod, void claws, helfrost dread and a lone wolf.
Is that unit overkill? I was thinking of dropping the Thunderhammer because I have an iron priest, but I keep reading tactics about having the IP split off and assault something on his own.
I would also drop some weapons on the TWC, use SS+chainsword on 2 of them, then 1 maul and 1 hammer (or fist). I would probably also do away with the Void Claws (they are cool, and the reserve boost they give is good, but still they are so vulnerable, and will do nothing in your first turn). With them dropping in your opponent's face they will likely be the first target (good in some ways of course, but it may be a bit of an expensive unit to throw away as bait, and you also lose the reserve manipulation when they die).
If you have more drop pods I would instead use min sized GH units (4+WGPL with melta or plasma) in drop pods (2 with GH, 1 with dread) and put the Lone wolf in the Stormwolf (I think you have a free FA slot for it?). You might even have some points left to add another Lone wolf or something else.
Yeah, my models are a bit lacking and I am suffering from awesome overload. There are a lot of things in the book I want to run, specific builds, but I don't own enough models. I have a single drop pod built, another in box that I could probably get up and running by the weekend. Lone wolf is in TDA, fully decked up with melta bomb, shield and claw.
Maybe I should keep the TWC on the shelf for this game. The only tactics I see posted are all TWC or nothing. The points about void claws are well understood, the unit costs almost as much as the TWC unit and isn't as good.
My models are in a strange place. I have like 4 dreadnoughts, about 60 infantry, 8 or so TDA, an assortment of priests and 6 TWC. Then the 2 pods and fyer. The match will just be a fun match so I am not looking for anything crazy. This is my first time with an imperial/power armor army after a few years of daemons and necrons. I forget the durability that a +3 can give, and I am sure I will forget the vulnerability not having FNP, res, or invul will give.
So here are two other types of lists I am thinking of.
Same bike wolf priest
2 TDA decked out lone wolves
dual auto cannon dread
Axe/shield in pod/locator becon
Helfrost dred
TWC: fist, claw, maul, 2 shields
10GH, 2 plasma with dedicated flyer (probably wont start in it)
7GH with 1 melta
I could also run 50 GH (30 with chainswords), 2 dreadnoughts, 1 rune priest and 3 lone wolves. There would be TDA pack leaders in 3 of the units.
Honestly I just am not 100% about much with what I have, so I feel like I should just dive in with a list.
Ill make 3 or 4 lists tonight and post them in the army lists section and link for feedback.
Back on tactical, now that the book has been out, helfrost cannons, yes or no? Are they pretty boss on dreadnoughts? Outside of anything on a thunderwolf, what do you feel like is a really awesome unit?
Oh, Why would I ever put extra armor on a vehicle these days? Stunned and shaken are pretty much the same if you are not a flyer.
I say just dive in. When you go in with the attitude that you could lose horribly, it's not a big deal when you do.
I just ran a mostly grey hunters list at a big tournament. 40 grey hunters, TDA pack leader (soaking up wounds), 2 squads of long fangs and 2 rune priests buffing everyone. I didn't do too badly because it was maelstrom. I could spread out, take objectives, and have models standing at the end.
In response to your last points; yes! Hellfrost is amazing. Against low Str armies like Tau and Eldar/Dark Eldar it'll clean up their characters quick smart.
Harald (2 Wolves)
BC (10) with Flamer in Stormwolf (TL-MM)
GH (5) with CCW and Wolf Standard in Stormwolf (TL-MM)
GH (5) with Melta in Rhino
TWC (4) with SS/WC, SS/CCW, PF/BP, BP/CCW Long Fangs (5) with 3 ML/Lascannon
Long Fangs (6) with 4 ML/Lascannon
Bastion with Void/Comm Relay
Coteaz
Xenos with Rad, Liber and 3 Servos
1850 on the nose.
Rad/Liber shenanigans:
- Attach to TWC for Scout, Rad and/or Hatred. With rad, this squad gets hilarious. Too bad Inquisitors can't get bikes.
- Join the Blood Claws for Rad Shenanigans and Give them Hatred.
That list. Seems pretty good. Wolf standard on 5 GH is a waste. For 25 points you want to get maximum effect out of it. Take 10. From my experience (I've taken a wolf standard every game since the codex dropped), the unit carrying the standard often ends up being the only unit that benefits from the +1 attack. It just comes down to the enemies units being spread out or units are needed elsewhere on the battlefield.
I think the Standard is there to provide second wind in the mid/late game to his other units (6" doesn't seem like much, but in assault you're always bunched up) and those GH actually have 20 attacks on the charge. From 5 MEQ costing 105 points. It's a really good Stormwolf loudout, both buffing the squad, saving points for more boys or toys elsewhere and it's a decent force multiplier if you have a fast army that can wolfpack units on one side of the board then do the same on the other.
gwarsh41 wrote: So I am throwing together a little list for a fun game this saturday. My main concern is that I am putting too many points into TWC. A unit of 4 TWC (3 storm shields, 2 claws, 1 hammer, 1 maul) with an iron priest +2 wolves and a wolf priest to go with it. That just seems like a seriously massive investment for a single unit. Sure they should tear anything they touch apart, but I feel like I don't have enough units turn 1. I also have 5GH in stormwolf, axe/shield dread in pod, void claws, helfrost dread and a lone wolf.
Is that unit overkill? I was thinking of dropping the Thunderhammer because I have an iron priest, but I keep reading tactics about having the IP split off and assault something on his own.
Regarding your TWC...the IP and WP already give you a maul and Strength 10 AP1. I think your hammer and maul points would be better spent on another model (or two, if you ditch some of the other upgrades). I used a unit of 4 TWC at a recent tourney and though it wasn't hyper-competitive it didn't do too badly, but the whole game I couldn't help but feel it would have been better with a few more ablative wounds here or there. (Side note: In the last round I attached my TDA Wolf Lord to the unit and walked, pulled the slingshot tactic, it helped a lot and was cheaper than a full-blown Wolf Lord).
The Banner has its' uses. It adds attacks to things that are generally already beatsticks if they are nearby, so it can be a real force multiplier. My Wolf Lord and my Axe Dread sometimes get 6 attacks on the charge because of it (it does affect all friendly Space Wolf units, I think...right?). My best result has been putting it into a unit in a pod, with a couple of big characters in it. Adding an extra attack for a Wolf Lord is nothing to sneeze at, and saving points on the GH themselves to give them CCWs means 4 attacks per model. This is pretty mean. To me the banner is almost a must-take because of the buff to the hard-hitters. The 6-inch bubble only has to touch one model in a unit for the whole unit to get the benefit.
I salivate at the inevitable day when my TWC or Blood Claws wander near the banner in-game.
Araenion wrote: I think the Standard is there to provide second wind in the mid/late game to his other units (6" doesn't seem like much, but in assault you're always bunched up) and those GH actually have 20 attacks on the charge. From 5 MEQ costing 105 points. It's a really good Stormwolf loudout, both buffing the squad, saving points for more boys or toys elsewhere and it's a decent force multiplier if you have a fast army that can wolfpack units on one side of the board then do the same on the other.
Exactly this. With the unit in the Stormwolf, they have a very large wolf standard footprint and I can get it anywhere I want turn 2 (+1 Attack for TWC, don't mind if I do.) And, as Araenion said, 20 attacks on the charge is not chump change.
Yeah, the WS is really a toolbox unit in the Stormwolf. Go where it is needed to give extra attacks/rerolls on morale (very cool with Blood claws as well. 5 Attacks each is crazy.)
This is my alpha strike list designed to create a threat overload by scouting melta bikes, thunderwolves and poding cents.
It is in your face T1 and delivers lots of grav and melta and a close combat star that can possibly take on anything.
It is designed to counter Knights, serpents and maybe deathstars (before powering up hopefully).
Fought the tournament today with the following list. I got 2 major victories (1 vs Triptide Farsight Enclaves!!!), 1 minor victory and a major loss (5x Wave Serpents and 2x Wraithknights... yeah). EDIT: Found out that I came in 6th out of 26, so not bad at all, considering that I was the only Wolves player representing.
HEAVY SUPPORT
Vindicator (Storm Bolter)
Vindicator (Storm Bolter)
TOTAL: 1500pts
I liked the list, but I'd ditch the Rune Priests for Ulrik or something more reliable. They were basically useless in every game, and only got off a power 1/2 or 1/3 of the time. The Skyclaws were okay for a suicide squad, but they didn't get a lot of opportunities to actually kill anything. They basically captured 1 objective, soaked up a lot of fire and killed a Hammerhead, so not awful but not amazing either. I could also lose them for a TWC Iron Priest I think.
But yeah, outflanking Rhinos with master of ambush is full of win, I tank shocked a Riptide, a huge Crisis team and 3 Missilesides off with lowly Rhinos, and almost knocked another Ridtide off as well (1 more inch...). MSU definitely seems like the way to go for a competitive list, especially if you're not running allies.
Bummed to hear about the Rune priest Andilus, but awesome to hear about the victory. I FINALLY got games in with my wolves, and damn they were sweet. Not tournaments, though we did walk in right before a tournament started and were asked for our lists, so they could be rated, that lead to some confusion.
I was running 2 lists, but I had void claws and TWC in both. First against guard, I tried the sword/board dreadnought and forgot about the invul so I positioned poorly, still managed to barely survive and assault a leman russ tank squadron, killing both pask and a demolisher russ. TWC and 2 void claws hit a unit of like 40 conscripts and reduced them to a tiny puddle of blood, so hat was satisfying. The Stormwolf is Awesome, holy damn it is amazing.
Second list there was no stormwolf, but used a wolf lord in TWC instead of wolf priest on bike. Damn I missed that preferred enemy more than anything else. The lord was a powerhouse, but even with like 7 attacks on the charge or whatever, he wiffed against an ork warboss, who then scored 3 wounds and I failed a save, and was instagibbed. Not saying wolf priest would have done better, but the TWC unit as a whole would have done better. The rest of the TWC rolled crap against the nobs as well. They absolutely annihilated some boys though. Void claws charged a big unit of boys, I failed freaking 5 out of 10 saves in TDA.
Game went really poorly for me, it was kill points. At the end of the day he had a walker (which was apparently a proxy for a FW walker he forgot to mention) and a runt herder. I had a riflemen dread. The game ended and we totalled it up, 11-9. I only won because he had so many more units and ICs in his army.
Some thoughts after both games.
Stormwolf is best flyer, A#1. Flew in, blasted a russ, then unloaded cargo into assault, cool beans.
Riflemen dreadnoughts are cool, I never considered how useful it could be. Then I thought about annihilation barges (which are better in almost every way, but still) and it did pretty well.
Thunderwolves are awesome, but I need to pick my targets better, and the wolf priest is a really big help. A prescience rune priest might prove to be the biggest help though. I will try that next game.
Void claws, the re-roll reserves is tits up awesome, but they are really expensive. I see it as a really fun unit, but not too competitive.
Helfrost. I missed my dreadnoughts helfrost 3 turns in a row. When it hit it was pretty cool though. Used the small blast and froze a big mek to death. Will probably give it to bjorn when I bring him.
Grey hunters, with CC, or without CC. Still unsure. I plan on building my lists with them with CC untill I think I need points somewhere else. I mean, how many other units in the game would pay 2pt for a bonus attack? Just about everyone outside guardsmen and tau I think.
After some testing on Vassal, I think I finally settled on what models to purchase for my SW list. It goes:
HQ:
Ulrik the Slayer - 145
Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Armour of Russ, TWM, PF/WC, 2x Wolves - 196
Troops:
5 GH: Wolf Standard - 105
5 GH: Plasmagun, WGPL: Combi-plasma, Drop Pod - 140
10 GH: 8x CCW, 2x meltaguns, Drop Pod - 211
10 GH: 9x CCW, 2x meltaguns, Drop Pod - 213
Elites:
Iron Priest: TWM, 4x Cyberwolves - 165
Lone Wolf: Terminator Armour, Combi-plasma, Power Fist - 65
Lone Wolf: Terminator Armour, Combi-plasma, Power Fist - 65
The GH with the Standard and Ulrik stay in the Redeemer and give a Stubborn/PE/+1 attack bubble 6"/12" all around the Raider. TWC stand up front and the melta Hunters are dropping first turn to try and difuse the most immediate threat. The Plasma Hunters and the Lone Wolves are here as mid/late game mopping up units, once my army is in the thick of it, they're there as second wind.
The biggest flaw of the list is no AA. If I could get some reliable reserve manipulation, I'd get a Stormwolf instead of the Raider, but without it, it's too much of a risk, in my opinion. Thoughts?
EDIT: Or perhaps this is a better list of the two:
The biggest flaw of the list is no AA. If I could get some reliable reserve manipulation, I'd get a Stormwolf instead of the Raider, but without it, it's too much of a risk, in my opinion. Thoughts?
Void claws are very expensive and vulnerable, while Unleashed keeps me away from OBS. The closest reliable solution is to grab Eldar allies with a Mantarch, because his reserve roll modification is army-wide, regardless of ally status.
Honestly, if I took the Bastion with Coms, I'd put it on an objective with 5 GH shooting those nice Heavy Bolters while scoring.
What do you guys say on the 2nd list? I'm itching to have a deadhard assault army after my shooty Eldar. And the only thing I want them to have in common is crazy mobility.
I don't know why you would ever take a bastion when the Bunker is available for less points with most of the same benefits. It even occasionally can't be seen in LOS because of its small size.
Grimnar's War council + Bjorn the Fell-Handed + Callidus Assassin = Twin-Linked 3+ Seize the Initiative.
Find a way to put all of those HQs to good use (Iron Priest with Thunderwolves, Rune Priest with Biker Wolf Guard, Njal with TH/SS Terminators, Ulrik as Warlord with Long Fangs?) and you all but guarantee first turn.
Hey, different subject really quick, not sure if anyone noticed,. Helfrost weapons will automatically remove artillery from play, as they have no strength value. So if that quad gun is really bugging you, zap it with your stormwolf once and be on your way.
whoa, so true for TFC's too? assuming its not hitting the Techpriest
Automatically Appended Next Post: So a lot of GK players seem to be really stoked about dropping in Purifiers via SW drop pods. I'm not the most versed in GK tactics/combos, but it seems like theres some merit to it. What kind of SW force would compliment this strategy well?
gwarsh41 wrote: Hey, different subject really quick, not sure if anyone noticed,. Helfrost weapons will automatically remove artillery from play, as they have no strength value. So if that quad gun is really bugging you, zap it with your stormwolf once and be on your way.
gwarsh41 wrote: Hey, different subject really quick, not sure if anyone noticed,. Helfrost weapons will automatically remove artillery from play, as they have no strength value. So if that quad gun is really bugging you, zap it with your stormwolf once and be on your way.
I am too tied up using it to ice FMCs to really waste it on something like that (though great option for a Drop Pod dread! Turn one...goodbye, Thunderfire Cannon!).
I'm entertaining a couple of new builds lately, one of them involves downgrading my Long Fangs to five Multi Meltas with a Melta Gun on the Ancient, putting them in the Imperial Bunker, and deploying it as far forward in the center of my deployment zone as possible.
CRAZY, I know, but hear me out! I've been using Lascannons and frankly they don't cut it. They excel at killing MCs, but vehicles seem to roll right by them a lot of the time as I am usually firing from a long distance and there's always cover, etc. People generally ignore the Lascannon Bunker because the shots are mitigated by long firing lines with iffy line of sight and plentiful cover.
This build will cost me a lot less in points, and will create a gross cone 12 inches from the firing points that no one is going to want to get near if they have armor, especially if I take the Ammo Store which will let me re-roll 1s. I'm hoping to create a decent denial area that people will take a wide berth around in a lot of cases. The hope is this will lead them to split up and feed into my army divided, somewhat.
My other unit that is coming in to make up for lost long range firepower is a squadron of 3 Speeders with Typhoon MLs and Heavy Bolters. This should do more damage than Long Fangs would to infantry, as they are putting out 6 blast templates and 9 HB shots. They should also be maneuverable enough to score some points on distant objectives and pick off vehicles on side armor (or overwhelm T6 MCs). The plan with these guys is to flank up the side of the board, keep extreme range to minimize response and camp objectives I intentionally place near the far table edge.
With these two threats, my smallish 3-man TWC unit should be able to move up and the Iron Priest riding with them can potentially break off to engage two targets, and my Stormwolf will come on the same side to support them.
With this setup I'm not sure what to do with troops and HQs, though. I definitely want to fit in some more dreadnoughts or Terminators, maybe I will go that route.
Yeah, with the changes, SW went from having nice melee and ranged, to mainly just having super melee. I don't really feel like long fangs are going to be worth it.
gwarsh41 wrote: Yeah, with the changes, SW went from having nice melee and ranged, to mainly just having super melee. I don't really feel like long fangs are going to be worth it.
Well, really, the changes to 6th and then 7th killed Long Fangs. The new codex just didn't fix them. Mass missile launchers and low ROF heavy weapons don't do the trick from a static position.
I'd rather have a stormwolf than a squad of long fangs anyday.
gwarsh41 wrote:Yeah, with the changes, SW went from having nice melee and ranged, to mainly just having super melee. I don't really feel like long fangs are going to be worth it.
pretre wrote:To be honest, I think I'm putting my long fangs away for a while...
Hmm I was afraid of all this about a year before the Codex dropped. 5x MLLFs were good for their time, but they were obviously going to get the nerf-hammer. I didn't expect Lascannon Fangs to be lackluster though.
Lately I've been running Vindicators... not so much for their AT capabilities, but more because they're relatively cheap and they provide some serious threat overload, combined with my Rhino armour saturation and TWC barreling down the field. They don't get all that many kills, but they definitely pay for themselves with all the attention they draw away from my other units.
My core is where I have the most trouble, honestly. Part of me wants 10-man drop pod units, but the cost makes me only want two of them and they frankly lack the punch they once had.
Another part of me screams "Go all Blood Claw, save the points" but that seems very limited.
Objective Secured is great but it has come up very rarely in my experiences, and only matters most against other Ob-Sec stuff. Which by late in the game is mostly dead, or at least enough that a decently geared GH squad has little to fear from it.
You still need to fly low to claim it, I believe, which for me is something I don't want it doing -- I want him in the sky being scary absorbing shots.
Ok, so long long time want of mine was to run a 100% dreadnought list. I know it isn't too competitive, but I always thought it would be a blast.
I will have a contemptor (assault cannon/power fist), and several magnetized dreadnoughts with, lets assume, all possible weaponry.
First, is there any ally worth considering. I know there is a FWHQ dreadnought for salamanders who is a serious boss, however then I would be required to take some sort of troops.
I plan on going almost full drop pod assault on this one too.
My thoughts so far-
Bjorn, plasma cannon, drop pod (think helfrost would be better?)
1 contemptor with assault cannon in fast attack pod
2 axe shield dreads in pods
2 dual autocannon dreads on the field
1 helfrost dread in pod
2 multimelta dreads in pod
leaves me 10pt to give a few mastercrafted weapons. Looking over the list of possible dread upgrades we can take, has anyone ever considered a dual heavy flamer dreadnought? Twin linked on one arm and standard in the other?
The Heavy Flamer dread in a pod is pretty brutal, especially if you have others to crack armor open for him on turn 1.
I'd use Helfrost wherever you can, just because you are going to need the flexibility in a list like this.
Given any thought to Murderfang here? Or Bjorn's formation? That would add some longevity.
For troops you are looking at minimized Blood Claws, I think universally that's our only decent choice. You could mech them up to add AV saturation, though.
gwarsh41 wrote: Ok, so long long time want of mine was to run a 100% dreadnought list. I know it isn't too competitive, but I always thought it would be a blast.
I will have a contemptor (assault cannon/power fist), and several magnetized dreadnoughts with, lets assume, all possible weaponry.
First, is there any ally worth considering. I know there is a FWHQ dreadnought for salamanders who is a serious boss, however then I would be required to take some sort of troops.
I plan on going almost full drop pod assault on this one too.
My thoughts so far-
Bjorn, plasma cannon, drop pod (think helfrost would be better?)
1 contemptor with assault cannon in fast attack pod
2 axe shield dreads in pods
2 dual autocannon dreads on the field
1 helfrost dread in pod
2 multimelta dreads in pod
leaves me 10pt to give a few mastercrafted weapons. Looking over the list of possible dread upgrades we can take, has anyone ever considered a dual heavy flamer dreadnought? Twin linked on one arm and standard in the other?
Hmm, a potential weak spot would be hoard armies. In keeping with your desire to play all dreads, maybe some Deathwind upgrades on some of the Drop Pods? It would save you from having to try for another dread.
Btw, potential use for Scouts - if you run a FA heavy or TDAWG that you want on the table T1, you can take a pod in FA, a pod for the Wolves, and put the TDA in the FA pod, thus giving you the ability to deploy both squads and only leaving the empty drop pod in reserve. Big for alpha strike armies.
But, the problem is, why are those Wolf scouts worth having on the table without being a tax? Well, I found two loudouts that work pretty well.
First is simple. Take camo cloaks, a plasma cannon and Infiltrate on an objective. They're not OBS, but not every squad has to be. Works in any list as cheap support scoring/firepower.
The other loudout works best in aggressive list. You take SM shotguns on everyone, and take a Multi-melta. 80 points for 5 + MM. Infiltrate will put them 18" from the enemy. Scout will put them at 12". In melta range. Either that, or the enemy has to commit to keep you away, opening him up for flanking melta/plasma hunters or TDAWG. A squad of Scouts could shift the game in your favout from the start, if you're going first. At the very least, they can be used to control deployment of enemy infiltrators and create a 24" range around the objective no Rhino or Chimera will want to get near.
Araenion wrote: Btw, potential use for Scouts - if you run a FA heavy or TDAWG that you want on the table T1, you can take a pod in FA, a pod for the Wolves, and put the TDA in the FA pod, thus giving you the ability to deploy both squads and only leaving the empty drop pod in reserve. Big for alpha strike armies.
But, the problem is, why are those Wolf scouts worth having on the table without being a tax? Well, I found two loudouts that work pretty well.
First is simple. Take camo cloaks, a plasma cannon and Infiltrate on an objective. They're not OBS, but not every squad has to be. Works in any list as cheap support scoring/firepower.
The other loudout works best in aggressive list. You take SM shotguns on everyone, and take a Multi-melta. 80 points for 5 + MM. Infiltrate will put them 18" from the enemy. Scout will put them at 12". In melta range. Either that, or the enemy has to commit to keep you away, opening him up for flanking melta/plasma hunters or TDAWG. A squad of Scouts could shift the game in your favout from the start, if you're going first. At the very least, they can be used to control deployment of enemy infiltrators and create a 24" range around the objective no Rhino or Chimera will want to get near.
Hmm, this is good to hear. I haven't given much thought to Wolf Scouts yet, but I'm glad to see that their major nerf didn't make them totally useless, they still can fit a niche.
Wait...can Scouts have a heavy weapon? I don't think they can.
EDIT: Holy crap, it appears they can! I checked a PDF version of the codex, however -- is there any possibility this is an error? Can someone confirm on the paper version of the book?
EDIT AGAIN: Nope. Should've went with my gut instinct on this one. Those cooler options have a superscript 2 with them, which the key says Wolf Scouts can't take.
Too bad GW, I was actually ready to go buy some scouts and a Dev box to make this.
It isn't, but the Heavy Weapons list itself forbids scouts from taking Plasma Cannons, unfortunately.
Epic fail, unfortunately. The unit really is a crap copy-paste of normal scouts, with +1 BS/ WS.
I guess this means tactically all you want to do with them is give them camo cloaks and hide all day, sadly. What happens when you attach an IC to a unit with Infiltrate or Scout? Do they even have that utility?
I totally forgot about murderfang, I will have to squeeze him in somewhere.
I don't have to worry about troops though, company of the great wolf and all. Bjorns formation could be nice, but that would be another 50pt to upgrade 2 other dreadnoughts.... allthough... the sword and shield dreadnoughts could count as those venerables. That is a +5 save while within 6 AND they get to re-roll hits while bjorn is alive, which is pretty awesome for them.
Question about the formation though, can I bring it and still have Bjorn as my HQ? That would be a bit of a deal breaker. Rulebook states that "each individual unit maintains its normal battlefield role" but I am not sure what that means. I am guessing it means that they still count as HQ and elite though.
What are your feelings on the contemptor? If I am going to squeeze in some missile pods, I will need more points. I would like to field him, as I have the model. I could drop a dreadnought, maybe an autocannon dread, then upgrade one to murderfang and give a few pods missiles.
gwarsh41 wrote: I totally forgot about murderfang, I will have to squeeze him in somewhere.
I don't have to worry about troops though, company of the great wolf and all. Bjorns formation could be nice, but that would be another 50pt to upgrade 2 other dreadnoughts.... allthough... the sword and shield dreadnoughts could count as those venerables. That is a +5 save while within 6 AND they get to re-roll hits while bjorn is alive, which is pretty awesome for them.
Question about the formation though, can I bring it and still have Bjorn as my HQ? That would be a bit of a deal breaker. Rulebook states that "each individual unit maintains its normal battlefield role" but I am not sure what that means. I am guessing it means that they still count as HQ and elite though.
What are your feelings on the contemptor? If I am going to squeeze in some missile pods, I will need more points. I would like to field him, as I have the model. I could drop a dreadnought, maybe an autocannon dread, then upgrade one to murderfang and give a few pods missiles.
Your warlord can be from any one detachment, so yes. And also, this frees up two elite slots in the CAD, since it is its' own detachment. It also shores up the only weakness the Shield Dreads have - side and rear armor would get a 5+ invul.
I don't know much about the Contemptors, but if they have access to noteworthy firepower it is probably definitely worth including them. I say kit it out how you want, then see what you could get out of the vanilla dreads for the same points (I'm going to guess not much).
I have been looking at Wolf Scouts to be used 3 ways
Wolf Sniper Scouts: Sniper Rifles, Cano and either a Missile Launcher or Heavy Bolter. Then find some Ruins or an ADL. Might be worth taking the WGPL in Power Armor
Wolf Bolter Scouts [This is how I have been using them since 5th. ]: Just take Bolt Guns and a Plasma Gun. Camo is a good option especially if you plan on planting them on an objective. They are also good at coming out of Reserves to take Objectives. I normally went with a Plasma Gun and 2 Plasma Pistols. I have not got to try them yes with the new Codex, though I am thinking of adding the WGPL with a Combi-Plasma.
Close Combat Wolf Scouts: Weather using them as an Assault Unit or Counter-Assault the principle is the same, you want the ability to Assault. The other Weapons selection is also based on what you are planning on using them on.
>Infantry: Bolt Pistols or Shotguns. If you go with Shotguns, go with Plasma Pistols [Remember you are replacing you Bolt Gun for these Giving you Gun Fighters]. For Power Weapons you want Bolt Pistols. The WGPL is not another bad option. Tool him up for close combat, a Storm Shield would not be out of place. As for the Special Weapon, a Flamer would be good.
>MCs/Tanks: I would tend to go with a Shotguns because most of the time you will just be using Krak Grenades most of the Time. I would also look at either Power Axe or Plasma Pistol. For the Special Weapon I would look at the Melta Gun. For the WGPL Either go with the Combi-Melta/Power Fist combo or Plasma Pistol. Another combo I have been looking at for Dreadnaught/MC Hunting is Storm Shield, Plasma Pistol and Melta-Bomb.
With the cost associated, I'd really only use them for one thing -- inilftrate onto a distant, easy to hold objective with camo cloaks and maybe a flakk ML for the occasional lucky rear armor shot. Spend most of the game gone to ground.
So I was thinking of building a SW allied detachment. In trying to keep the HQ cheap and possibly provide some psy defense via a hood, I'm thinking of bringing a RP. Originally, I was going to keep him cheap but recently I've been leaning towards this build:
-ML2
-Psychic Hood
-Helm of Durfast
-Plasma Pistol
-Biomancy
At 130, he's still fairly cheap.
The helm gives him rerolls to hit (which pretty much solves Gets Hot) and ignores cover, so the pistol will probably pay for itself first shot.
The biomancy primaris adds another 4 cover ignoring AP2 shots and possibly 2 more if life leech is rolled. Without armor upgrades he's squishy, but he really only needs a turn or two to make a mess of something.
The one thing I'm not sure about is whether he should have an axe or a sword. The Axe is S6 AP2. As long as he hides in a unit he's got 4 rerollable attacks on the first round.
On the other hand he's already got a bunch of psychic/shooting AP2 attacks, the sword would preserve his initiative and almost 2/3rds of the time be better for a biomancy psyker. Iron Arm would make it AP2 without the downsides of the axe, that other power would boost his initiative to make him pretty much always swing first if he's not wielding an axe. If I realize he needs to stay away from super melee focused enemy deathstars, AP3 might be good enough and the extra initiative can protect his squad especially given that as a character on a 6 he can direct his wounds to enemy power firsts or the like.
Now initially, I was thinking I should give him a bike and attach to TWC or the like, but really if I wanted to bring a bike psyker Sentinels of Terra would do that job better with the +1 WC and rerollable psychic tests relic.
My second idea is to keep him on foot and stick him in a Drop pod with a GH squad. Since my main army is SoB, I can give them a priest with the book that makes the War Hymns always go off without a Ld test. For those unfamiliar with this guy he's just like the one AM get but with more wargear and relic options. At 40 points with the book, he's a T3 4++ W1 zealot who allows the unit to reroll all saves in melee or basically have shred in melee (Technically I could add a second priest and have both.) Rerollable 3+ is pretty crazy against non-AP3 weapons. (For example, it would take enemy MEQ making S4 AP- attacks 36 attacks on average to remove a single one of my marines in that squad.) He doesn't help with getting shot, but meh? Actually, the priest makes Runic armor seem possibly worthwhile because rerollable 2+ leads to sad opponents. (Going to terminator armor would prevent sweeping advances, cost me the cover-ignoring plasma shot, one attack in melee, and one additional ablative wound in the squad coming down in the pod all for a 5++.)
This leaves me with the squad itself. My initial idea, since I need a troop squad anyway would be to take 8 GH with a standard, WGPL (someone to eat a challenge). 147 points is not overly much. I could add up to 2 power fist and a CCW on everyone which starts to bring the squad up there. This means that they are around 300ish points depending on the upgrades. With the standard they get 5 attacks from the RP at AP2 or 3 and 3,4, or 7 from power fists. (Or maybe the WGPL takes an axe for the extra attack?) on the first round. Also the priest gives them the ability to reroll to hit that first round.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I can then use my FA slot for another drop pod for some sort of SoB unit then I probably have to take a third pod (Murderfang? Empty along with a squad of Longfangs that start on the board?)
I also scout forward 1-2 units with 4 cover-ignoring melta guns giving the enemy at least 4 total important targets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One other thought would be to take wolf guard as they effectively have the extra attack built in, but then no banner buff for the RP, but a much wider selection of weapons.
Alternatively, instead of taking the power first, I could take an Iron Priest. GH with PF = 39 points. For 16 more, I'd get a 4th (and 5th attack first round) and a 2+ save (without losing sweeping advances) and an additional character to eat a challenge. Only reason I can see not to take him is if this is an allied detachment and I really want Murderfang.
Retributors with 4 heavy flamers coming out of a pod sounds dope. What does their act of faith do again? I know SoB heavy support slots are quite precious though.
Oh man that sounds sexy. How about keep the hunters cheap with melta to crack something open for FLAMES OF RETRIBUTION!!! Your scouting ignores cover melta should help with that too.
Yeah, other thought was to make the GH just be a cheap squad of blood claws instead. The enemy would probably focus on the melta/flamer squads. 8 BC with a priest for save rerolls or shred would be reasonably good at removing non-pimped out enemy units and cheaper.
Both the sister squads can take a priest and a 10 point upgrade that gives them a second turn of using their act of faith. This makes them Fearless units that must be removed by the enemy or at least which the enemy should give a wide berth to.
I'm considering a list -- perhaps foolishly -- that includes a Land Raider Crusader with Ulrik and a squad of kitted-out GH with the banner, AND a Stormwolf with some Blood Claws and a tooled up Battle Leader.
This is a LOT of points, but has some merit. However, that being said, I'm considering ditching the Blood Claws entirely and just taking the Stormwolf empty, putting the Battle Leader in the Raider with Ulrik's boys. It doesn't save me much in terms of points, but I do want the rest of the army to be able to make an impact and gain some benefit from Ulrik and the Banner's buffs. I'm thinking Drop Pod units for the rest just the same, so that there is some pressure on before the Ulrik raider and his boys arrive.
What do you all think of an idea like these two options?
I've been contemplating making a Deathwatch army, and I'm thinking Champions of Fenris might be the go. Mounted PA Wolf Guard squads with combi-weapons, Dreadnoughts and Terminators.
gwarsh41 wrote:I will have a contemptor (assault cannon/power fist),
My books says Space Wolves can't take contemptors?
Fenris Frost wrote:Given any thought to Murderfang here? Or Bjorn's formation? That would add some longevity.
For troops you are looking at minimized Blood Claws
Any unit can only belong to 1 formation. If he takes Bjorn's formation then Bjorn can't be the mandatory HQ required for a Company of the Great Wolf detachment. That detachment doesn't need troops either, and he said he wanted an "All Dreadnought army".
Fenris Frost wrote: I'm considering a list -- perhaps foolishly -- that includes a Land Raider Crusader with Ulrik and a squad of kitted-out GH with the banner, AND a Stormwolf with some Blood Claws and a tooled up Battle Leader.
This is a LOT of points, but has some merit. However, that being said, I'm considering ditching the Blood Claws entirely and just taking the Stormwolf empty, putting the Battle Leader in the Raider with Ulrik's boys. It doesn't save me much in terms of points, but I do want the rest of the army to be able to make an impact and gain some benefit from Ulrik and the Banner's buffs. I'm thinking Drop Pod units for the rest just the same, so that there is some pressure on before the Ulrik raider and his boys arrive.
What do you all think of an idea like these two options?
I was thinking of a similar list myself, 15 BC's and Ulrik in a Crusader seems a really fun unit on the table. Though for the rest of my list I was thinking of GHs in Rhinos or pods and either a couple of Dreads or some TWC.
I like your list but a Crusader and Stormwolf is quite a bit of points, but if played correctly will be very effective. (As long as your opponents army isn't full of melta and AA )
I tried out this odd list this week, it was against pure Tau and the list was upgraded to 2500 for this encounter. Unfortunately, I found some things out the hard way.
First and foremost...man, how do you beat these guys? I've never had a game go from so in my favor to so cripplingly in the other guy's favor so far. I attempted two charges at the top of turn 3 and got 600 points of stuff crippled, only for him to effortlessly finish it off on his player turn. I never made combat with a single model.
He had two Ethereals in Devilfish pumping out the extra pulse shot bonus to about 30 firewarriors, a couple of Riptides with the usual gear, a squad of Kroot, a unit of Rail Rifle broadsides, a couple of Railheads, and three units of Pathfinders. I quickly dropped two of the pathfinder units (though in the process Bjorn got lit up and immobilized, facing sideways, so he couldn't do much every turn afterward)
I managed to quickly breach the front and break open a devilfish but two more were waiting and were able to deploy a lot of stuff quickly. Classic Tau tactics -- stayed close so I would eat it on the charge with their super overwatch-o-rama trick.
The Crusader is, as it always has been IMO, a liability. Every army has some kind of dedicated AV14 killing trick, and a lot of them can easily reach and kill it. At first I was very confident because it advanced and shot and was right on target, delivering my Ulrik+Banner unit right where I wanted it alongside my last living TWC, and the charge attempt just obliterated it all. Ulrik not having a 2+ save really hurts, you need a supplemental character in their to soak up some shots on the way in. By the time it was near him and he decided to pay attention to it, it died very easily to some fusion gun suits he deep struck (3 sets of 3).
My Multimelta Long Fangs in a Bunker idea really stunk it up. The same thing that has been happening to my Lascannon Fangs happened to these guys; he ignored them. The difference is the Lascannons had the distance to do some damage from downtown, though it is highly minimized it worked well. I'm considering the incredibly foolish idea of putting the 5 multis in a Pod with a 2+ Psyker or Termie WG in front to tank a bit...dropping it somewhere really inconvenient and letting the enemy have to deal with it might at least take them off their game a bit. The Bunker works great if you have a threat in it but it is really not worth much with Fangs in it...they are your only unit with long range threat so most armies don't really care.
The Stormwolf was meh as well. It's not bad but when carrying cargo (in my case, a Battle Leader and a bunch of Blood Claws), it is fairly easy for it to drop their gunnery role and become too vulnerable while flying low. My opponent deep struck three squads of fusion gun suits which of course polished off the Raider and the Stormwolf in super short order, shortly after my disastrous charge.
I used the three CML speeder unit as well and found it totally wanting for the points. For 15 points less I can have 6 multimeltas, which is probably better off. They are a good unit but I found that, again, most of the time he was willing to just let me have the shots, as they were largely inconsequential.
My takeaway questions following this game:
1.) It seems like other armies have some units that can power up their allies, it seems like the closest thing to that we have is Ulrik and the Priests, both easily killed. Where is our HQ beef? People seem generally unimpressed/not concerned, unlike with things like a Nurgle Prince or a Eternal Shield Chapter Master where people are like 'I MUST KILL THIS THING'.
2.) I think Long Fangs are dead, man. I've tried so many different configs, none seem to work: - 5ML, they just put 2+ targets in front of them - 5LC, effective but not as much as 190 points would have you believe, and they are vulnerable usually without supplemented investments. - 5HB, no one cares, you are either hurting guys who will save most of the wounds or hurting guys who are too cheap for the other dude to care. - 5PC, they just burn themselves to death, one kills himself every other turn. - 5MM seems pretty good for the price but then no one gets anywhere near them because the entire rest of our army is aggressive short-range stuff so they quickly are left in the dust.
The question is, what can be used in their place?
3.) Bjorn, verdict is still out on this one. Worth the points? Probably not against Tau.
4.) Do any of the Champions of Fenris formations or detachments alleviate any of these issues?
Seems like a fully upgraded Wolf Lord on a TW is the wolves' version of the shield eternal CM. Sure no EW, but S10 attacks are rare and you get an extra attack to compensate.
I tried out this odd list this week, it was against pure Tau and the list was upgraded to 2500 for this encounter. Unfortunately, I found some things out the hard way.
First and foremost...man, how do you beat these guys? I've never had a game go from so in my favor to so cripplingly in the other guy's favor so far. I attempted two charges at the top of turn 3 and got 600 points of stuff crippled, only for him to effortlessly finish it off on his player turn. I never made combat with a single model.
He had two Ethereals in Devilfish pumping out the extra pulse shot bonus to about 30 firewarriors, a couple of Riptides with the usual gear, a squad of Kroot, a unit of Rail Rifle broadsides, a couple of Railheads, and three units of Pathfinders. I quickly dropped two of the pathfinder units (though in the process Bjorn got lit up and immobilized, facing sideways, so he couldn't do much every turn afterward)
I managed to quickly breach the front and break open a devilfish but two more were waiting and were able to deploy a lot of stuff quickly. Classic Tau tactics -- stayed close so I would eat it on the charge with their super overwatch-o-rama trick.
The Crusader is, as it always has been IMO, a liability. Every army has some kind of dedicated AV14 killing trick, and a lot of them can easily reach and kill it. At first I was very confident because it advanced and shot and was right on target, delivering my Ulrik+Banner unit right where I wanted it alongside my last living TWC, and the charge attempt just obliterated it all. Ulrik not having a 2+ save really hurts, you need a supplemental character in their to soak up some shots on the way in. By the time it was near him and he decided to pay attention to it, it died very easily to some fusion gun suits he deep struck (3 sets of 3).
My Multimelta Long Fangs in a Bunker idea really stunk it up. The same thing that has been happening to my Lascannon Fangs happened to these guys; he ignored them. The difference is the Lascannons had the distance to do some damage from downtown, though it is highly minimized it worked well. I'm considering the incredibly foolish idea of putting the 5 multis in a Pod with a 2+ Psyker or Termie WG in front to tank a bit...dropping it somewhere really inconvenient and letting the enemy have to deal with it might at least take them off their game a bit. The Bunker works great if you have a threat in it but it is really not worth much with Fangs in it...they are your only unit with long range threat so most armies don't really care.
The Stormwolf was meh as well. It's not bad but when carrying cargo (in my case, a Battle Leader and a bunch of Blood Claws), it is fairly easy for it to drop their gunnery role and become too vulnerable while flying low. My opponent deep struck three squads of fusion gun suits which of course polished off the Raider and the Stormwolf in super short order, shortly after my disastrous charge.
I used the three CML speeder unit as well and found it totally wanting for the points. For 15 points less I can have 6 multimeltas, which is probably better off. They are a good unit but I found that, again, most of the time he was willing to just let me have the shots, as they were largely inconsequential.
My takeaway questions following this game:
1.) It seems like other armies have some units that can power up their allies, it seems like the closest thing to that we have is Ulrik and the Priests, both easily killed. Where is our HQ beef? People seem generally unimpressed/not concerned, unlike with things like a Nurgle Prince or a Eternal Shield Chapter Master where people are like 'I MUST KILL THIS THING'.
2.) I think Long Fangs are dead, man. I've tried so many different configs, none seem to work:
- 5ML, they just put 2+ targets in front of them
- 5LC, effective but not as much as 190 points would have you believe, and they are vulnerable usually without supplemented investments.
- 5HB, no one cares, you are either hurting guys who will save most of the wounds or hurting guys who are too cheap for the other dude to care.
- 5PC, they just burn themselves to death, one kills himself every other turn.
- 5MM seems pretty good for the price but then no one gets anywhere near them because the entire rest of our army is aggressive short-range stuff so they quickly are left in the dust.
The question is, what can be used in their place?
3.) Bjorn, verdict is still out on this one. Worth the points? Probably not against Tau.
4.) Do any of the Champions of Fenris formations or detachments alleviate any of these issues?
I tried out this odd list this week, it was against pure Tau and the list was upgraded to 2500 for this encounter. Unfortunately, I found some things out the hard way.
First and foremost...man, how do you beat these guys? I've never had a game go from so in my favor to so cripplingly in the other guy's favor so far. I attempted two charges at the top of turn 3 and got 600 points of stuff crippled, only for him to effortlessly finish it off on his player turn. I never made combat with a single model.
He had two Ethereals in Devilfish pumping out the extra pulse shot bonus to about 30 firewarriors, a couple of Riptides with the usual gear, a squad of Kroot, a unit of Rail Rifle broadsides, a couple of Railheads, and three units of Pathfinders. I quickly dropped two of the pathfinder units (though in the process Bjorn got lit up and immobilized, facing sideways, so he couldn't do much every turn afterward)
I managed to quickly breach the front and break open a devilfish but two more were waiting and were able to deploy a lot of stuff quickly. Classic Tau tactics -- stayed close so I would eat it on the charge with their super overwatch-o-rama trick.
The Crusader is, as it always has been IMO, a liability. Every army has some kind of dedicated AV14 killing trick, and a lot of them can easily reach and kill it. At first I was very confident because it advanced and shot and was right on target, delivering my Ulrik+Banner unit right where I wanted it alongside my last living TWC, and the charge attempt just obliterated it all. Ulrik not having a 2+ save really hurts, you need a supplemental character in their to soak up some shots on the way in. By the time it was near him and he decided to pay attention to it, it died very easily to some fusion gun suits he deep struck (3 sets of 3).
My Multimelta Long Fangs in a Bunker idea really stunk it up. The same thing that has been happening to my Lascannon Fangs happened to these guys; he ignored them. The difference is the Lascannons had the distance to do some damage from downtown, though it is highly minimized it worked well. I'm considering the incredibly foolish idea of putting the 5 multis in a Pod with a 2+ Psyker or Termie WG in front to tank a bit...dropping it somewhere really inconvenient and letting the enemy have to deal with it might at least take them off their game a bit. The Bunker works great if you have a threat in it but it is really not worth much with Fangs in it...they are your only unit with long range threat so most armies don't really care.
The Stormwolf was meh as well. It's not bad but when carrying cargo (in my case, a Battle Leader and a bunch of Blood Claws), it is fairly easy for it to drop their gunnery role and become too vulnerable while flying low. My opponent deep struck three squads of fusion gun suits which of course polished off the Raider and the Stormwolf in super short order, shortly after my disastrous charge.
I used the three CML speeder unit as well and found it totally wanting for the points. For 15 points less I can have 6 multimeltas, which is probably better off. They are a good unit but I found that, again, most of the time he was willing to just let me have the shots, as they were largely inconsequential.
My takeaway questions following this game:
1.) It seems like other armies have some units that can power up their allies, it seems like the closest thing to that we have is Ulrik and the Priests, both easily killed. Where is our HQ beef? People seem generally unimpressed/not concerned, unlike with things like a Nurgle Prince or a Eternal Shield Chapter Master where people are like 'I MUST KILL THIS THING'.
2.) I think Long Fangs are dead, man. I've tried so many different configs, none seem to work:
- 5ML, they just put 2+ targets in front of them
- 5LC, effective but not as much as 190 points would have you believe, and they are vulnerable usually without supplemented investments.
- 5HB, no one cares, you are either hurting guys who will save most of the wounds or hurting guys who are too cheap for the other dude to care.
- 5PC, they just burn themselves to death, one kills himself every other turn.
- 5MM seems pretty good for the price but then no one gets anywhere near them because the entire rest of our army is aggressive short-range stuff so they quickly are left in the dust.
The question is, what can be used in their place?
3.) Bjorn, verdict is still out on this one. Worth the points? Probably not against Tau.
4.) Do any of the Champions of Fenris formations or detachments alleviate any of these issues?
I have yet to play against the current Tau dex ( thankfully ) Drop pods filled with GHs and WG with Combi's seem good on paper against Tau, would have to actually play to see it's effectiveness though.
Combi weapons cost more now but it might be worth it against tau gunline.
Also maybe a couple of vindicators might be a good distraction while the rest of your army moves up the table.
That Tau list was a pretty bad matchup though, enough railguns in it to easily put down your LR, and a lot of points with it.
I agree on LFs, too expensive and probaly won't make their points back.
The Long Fangs might have more utility if I drop them in a pod if I keep them with Multi Meltas. At the very last it's a must-kill unit, and with a meltagun on the leader it could potentially slag a tank on arrival. Seems like a crap idea either way.
I'm considering going back to Lascannons. I'm also taking a page out of my opponents book and trying 3x 3-man TDAWG units with combi-meltas. This should slag any tanks that come up and give me some durable throw-away units to try to assault into the line first to take that gross triple-overwatch.
I'm also hoping to have 2 Vindicators and 2 Whirlwinds next go around, too.
Fenris Frost wrote: The Long Fangs might have more utility if I drop them in a pod if I keep them with Multi Meltas. At the very last it's a must-kill unit, and with a meltagun on the leader it could potentially slag a tank on arrival. Seems like a crap idea either way.
I'm considering going back to Lascannons. I'm also taking a page out of my opponents book and trying 3x 3-man TDAWG units with combi-meltas. This should slag any tanks that come up and give me some durable throw-away units to try to assault into the line first to take that gross triple-overwatch.
I'm also hoping to have 2 Vindicators and 2 Whirlwinds next go around, too.
The LFs in a pod will at least attract a good few shots that isn't going into the rest of your army.
2 Vindicators and 2 Whirlwinds sounds good, they will at the very least kill some stuff and attract a lot of fire which isn't hitting your troops.
gwarsh41 wrote:I will have a contemptor (assault cannon/power fist),
My books says Space Wolves can't take contemptors?
Fenris Frost wrote:Given any thought to Murderfang here? Or Bjorn's formation? That would add some longevity.
For troops you are looking at minimized Blood Claws
Any unit can only belong to 1 formation. If he takes Bjorn's formation then Bjorn can't be the mandatory HQ required for a Company of the Great Wolf detachment. That detachment doesn't need troops either, and he said he wanted an "All Dreadnought army".
Space wolves have their own contemptor dreadnought. Its a few pages after the standard contemptor in the most recent Apoc book.
I tried out this odd list this week, it was against pure Tau and the list was upgraded to 2500 for this encounter. Unfortunately, I found some things out the hard way.
First and foremost...man, how do you beat these guys? I've never had a game go from so in my favor to so cripplingly in the other guy's favor so far. I attempted two charges at the top of turn 3 and got 600 points of stuff crippled, only for him to effortlessly finish it off on his player turn. I never made combat with a single model.
He had two Ethereals in Devilfish pumping out the extra pulse shot bonus to about 30 firewarriors, a couple of Riptides with the usual gear, a squad of Kroot, a unit of Rail Rifle broadsides, a couple of Railheads, and three units of Pathfinders. I quickly dropped two of the pathfinder units (though in the process Bjorn got lit up and immobilized, facing sideways, so he couldn't do much every turn afterward)
I managed to quickly breach the front and break open a devilfish but two more were waiting and were able to deploy a lot of stuff quickly. Classic Tau tactics -- stayed close so I would eat it on the charge with their super overwatch-o-rama trick.
The Crusader is, as it always has been IMO, a liability. Every army has some kind of dedicated AV14 killing trick, and a lot of them can easily reach and kill it. At first I was very confident because it advanced and shot and was right on target, delivering my Ulrik+Banner unit right where I wanted it alongside my last living TWC, and the charge attempt just obliterated it all. Ulrik not having a 2+ save really hurts, you need a supplemental character in their to soak up some shots on the way in. By the time it was near him and he decided to pay attention to it, it died very easily to some fusion gun suits he deep struck (3 sets of 3).
My Multimelta Long Fangs in a Bunker idea really stunk it up. The same thing that has been happening to my Lascannon Fangs happened to these guys; he ignored them. The difference is the Lascannons had the distance to do some damage from downtown, though it is highly minimized it worked well. I'm considering the incredibly foolish idea of putting the 5 multis in a Pod with a 2+ Psyker or Termie WG in front to tank a bit...dropping it somewhere really inconvenient and letting the enemy have to deal with it might at least take them off their game a bit. The Bunker works great if you have a threat in it but it is really not worth much with Fangs in it...they are your only unit with long range threat so most armies don't really care.
The Stormwolf was meh as well. It's not bad but when carrying cargo (in my case, a Battle Leader and a bunch of Blood Claws), it is fairly easy for it to drop their gunnery role and become too vulnerable while flying low. My opponent deep struck three squads of fusion gun suits which of course polished off the Raider and the Stormwolf in super short order, shortly after my disastrous charge.
I used the three CML speeder unit as well and found it totally wanting for the points. For 15 points less I can have 6 multimeltas, which is probably better off. They are a good unit but I found that, again, most of the time he was willing to just let me have the shots, as they were largely inconsequential.
My takeaway questions following this game:
1.) It seems like other armies have some units that can power up their allies, it seems like the closest thing to that we have is Ulrik and the Priests, both easily killed. Where is our HQ beef? People seem generally unimpressed/not concerned, unlike with things like a Nurgle Prince or a Eternal Shield Chapter Master where people are like 'I MUST KILL THIS THING'.
2.) I think Long Fangs are dead, man. I've tried so many different configs, none seem to work:
- 5ML, they just put 2+ targets in front of them
- 5LC, effective but not as much as 190 points would have you believe, and they are vulnerable usually without supplemented investments.
- 5HB, no one cares, you are either hurting guys who will save most of the wounds or hurting guys who are too cheap for the other dude to care.
- 5PC, they just burn themselves to death, one kills himself every other turn.
- 5MM seems pretty good for the price but then no one gets anywhere near them because the entire rest of our army is aggressive short-range stuff so they quickly are left in the dust.
The question is, what can be used in their place?
3.) Bjorn, verdict is still out on this one. Worth the points? Probably not against Tau.
4.) Do any of the Champions of Fenris formations or detachments alleviate any of these issues?
I have yet to play against the current Tau dex ( thankfully ) Drop pods filled with GHs and WG with Combi's seem good on paper against Tau, would have to actually play to see it's effectiveness though.
Combi weapons cost more now but it might be worth it against tau gunline.
Also maybe a couple of vindicators might be a good distraction while the rest of your army moves up the table.
That Tau list was a pretty bad matchup though, enough railguns in it to easily put down your LR, and a lot of points with it.
I agree on LFs, too expensive and probaly won't make their points back.
I have faced them twice since our new Dex dropped and crushed them both times (and they were using fairly competitive or semi-competitive lists to boot). With Tau, it seems to me like the key is a combination of threat overload and target priority. I like to have lots of heavy-hitting units or cheap distractions drawing fire away from my objective grabbers. I also really like Rhinos, with all the other distractions on the board they can often get into a position to tank shock lots of Tau... and since they're probably playing gunline, all you need is 1 failed check and they'll probably fall off the board.
If you can force them to split their fire, or waste it all on a single unit, Tau are quite manageable. Also, priority #1 is HYMP Broadsides and Plasma/Fusion Crisis Suits. Riptides are dangerous, but they're more valuable for soaking up incoming fire. Don't even bother with them if you don't have a good chance of killing them (again - tank shocking is your friend!!!!).
It has its' issues for sure, I consider this a pretty terrible list as it had little synergy and not many targets. Priority for him was elementary.
Well it did not give me Wargear load outs, but with what I could make out:
A CAD is nice, but if you could squeeze in a 2nd Character I would go with a Wolves Unleashed. This way your LRC could get in close quickly if you can pull off the Outflank. I would also conceder a Redeemer, it is a little cheaper and with Tau it will kill of the In Cover Marker Lights Quickly.
The Blood Claws should be a full 15 model Pack or go with Grey Hunters.
Long Fangs: I have been having good luck with a 4x Missile Launcher, 1x Las Canon set up. It will ID Crisis Suits and the Las-Cannon can work on the Riptides.
Put the Arjac and squad in a Pod
Drop Pods: With Pods Go big or don't bother. As it is One Pod Unit Arrives and gets blasted out of existence before it can do any Damage and then 1-3 turns later #2 Show up to the same fit.
especially if you thing of going with Melta-Fangs in a Pod
This if how I would do it:
Pod #1: Dread with either a Multi-Melta, Assault Cannon or Helfrost Cannon. Another option could be Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer and Heavy Flamer for dealing with Pathfinders in Cover.
Pod #2: Bjorn: Assault Cannon or Helfrost Cannon.
Pod #3: Plasma Grey Hunters [WGPL with Combi-Plasma and Power Fist, 2 Plasma Guns and a Plasma Pistol] for dealing with Riptides and or Crisis Suits.
Pod #4: Long Fangs with either Heavy Bolters for Anti-Infantry Work or Multi-Meltas and a Wolf Priest or Divination-Rune Priest.
Pod #5: Wolf Guard Terminators loaded with Combi-Flamers [For units in cover] or Combi-Plasmas [For Vehicles and Riptides]
3 can land on Turn-1.
You don't truly need Melta for Tau with a drop list.
Screamerstar isn't all too much of a huge issue anymore. It is annoying, but not as bad as it used to be. Our answer to most thing is TWC and stormwolf gunship. There is also the Sicarious FW tank that shoots something like 6 autocannon shots that ignore jink and is 13/12/11 for dirty nasty cheap (sub 150pt) I think I will get myself that as an xmas gift.
Wraithknights? Honestly, most of the time you can just ignore 1 or two and wipe out the rest of the army. Or you can throw some TWC at it lol.
Of course, if you don't like TWC, go old school. Metric buttload of drop pods, and the sword/board dreadnought is a beast! Murderfang just became S8 on the charge too.
In all these instances I would feel just trying to throw TWC at them might work, or for the MCs maybe using hellfrost would work, but that still is a big if, in both cases would need to take an unsaved wound and then roll a 6. We do not have anything superbly amazing, such as grav to deal with these tough items.
As for Wraithknights - they are s10 in close combat. That will id any TWC or Thunderlord. The only solution is a rune priest on a bike and a hope to roll Endurance (EW,FNP 4+)
gausus wrote: As for Wraithknights - they are s10 in close combat. That will id any TWC or Thunderlord. The only solution is a rune priest on a bike and a hope to roll Endurance (EW,FNP 4+)
Or take Storm Shields and pass off any wounds to a cheap TWC, then hit it with a Thunder Hammer or Powerfist. Not a guarantee, but it's your best chance.
Space wolves are also able to spam Plasma and Melta better than most, giving good ranged capabilities versus Wraithknights and Riptides in addition to the melee.
I finally beat the Tau at a recent tournament using foot grey hunter spam. The list consisted of:
1500pts
2 Rune Priests (ml2) runic armour
5 units of Grey Hunters led by WGPL in Termi armour
2 units of Long Fangs, 1 with 5xML, 1 with 3xPC 1xHB
The Termi leaders did a great job soaking up fire. The long fangs were pretty useless. The rune priest that rolled levitation was VERY useful. That extra 12" move is super good in Maelstrom missions (which is what we where playing). In the end, having so many models on the table was a big boon. And with the Termi leaders in front, he just couldn't kill them fast enough. I didn't table him, I just took objectives and survived until the end of the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Taking out a Wraithlord?
10 Grey Hunters
2x melta
Power fist
Wolf standard
WGPL with power fist and combi melta.
Fire meltas, charge, let the bolter guys take the wounds. Maybe cause a wound or two with Krak grenades.
Finish him off with your 7 power fist attacks.
Expensive, but it does the job.
Your fist attacks are s8, not s7.
Still Your tactic has little chance of success.
A wraitknight can just outrun you, or use three twin linked s6 ap2 blasts to get rid of you, befere you even get into bolter range
2.) I think Long Fangs are dead, man. I've tried so many different configs, none seem to work:
- 5ML, they just put 2+ targets in front of them
- 5LC, effective but not as much as 190 points would have you believe, and they are vulnerable usually without supplemented investments.
- 5HB, no one cares, you are either hurting guys who will save most of the wounds or hurting guys who are too cheap for the other dude to care.
- 5PC, they just burn themselves to death, one kills himself every other turn.
- 5MM seems pretty good for the price but then no one gets anywhere near them because the entire rest of our army is aggressive short-range stuff so they quickly are left in the dust.
If your only concern with the long fangs using plasma cannons is them hurting themselves, why not put them in the bunker and give it an ammo dump so they can reroll the gets hot results? I was considering a unit like that inside the bunker and maybe a separate lascannon unit on top.
gausus wrote: Your fist attacks are s8, not s7.
Still Your tactic has little chance of success.
A wraitknight can just outrun you, or use three twin linked s6 ap2 blasts to get rid of you, befere you even get into bolter range
No, 7 attacks, not Str7. In a Stormwolf it's virtually guaranteed success. He won't even get any overwatch. I've never seen anyone take that version (300pts worth!) but I'll take it into consideration now. Sounds scary!
For what it's worth, I had a game this weekend where the Stormwolf's Helfrost turret took out BOTH of the enemy Wraithknights. It takes some luck, but I did that with only one; maybe a few on some dreads would do the trick, or looking for some rends on the Helfrost sword.
Not as good an answer as TWC, really, but might at least hold up as a backup plan occasionally.
If your only concern with the long fangs using plasma cannons is them hurting themselves, why not put them in the bunker and give it an ammo dump so they can reroll the gets hot results? I was considering a unit like that inside the bunker and maybe a separate lascannon unit on top.
The ammo dump lets them re-roll 1's to hit, not just 1's in general. As such, it doesn't protect the plasma cannons from the gets hot check. :(
pretre wrote: Gets hot specifically addresses rerolling 1's.
Huh. How bout that? You learn something new every day. I must have not caught that last sentence.
I still don't know if this works, I will have to check out how it interacts with the ammo store's rules (it may literally say "when rolling to hit, you may re-roll any results of 1" and it would probably override it). But if not...5 plasma cannons in an AV14 shell for 165+~75 sounds pretty mean.
Recently had a game where helfrost took out 2 of thos grot artillery pains in the butt. Took one down, then the second turn he moved all his grot crew up front to protect it, so I flew over and shot it in the butt, killing the second one.
Very satisfying.
Planning a game tonight for kicks and giggles,
Bjorn with 4 dreadnoughts and 2 units of 4 TWC. 3 dreads have pods so 2 can alpha strike. Also threw in a stormwolf, just for additional shenanigans. Should be a good time!
I'm toying with the idea of trying all of the various Long Fang units I've been testing out lately in one list.
Did the math. For about 650 you can get:
- 6 Fangs w/ 5 Lascannons
- 6 Fangs w/ 5 Plasma Cannons in an Imperial Bunker with Void Shield and Ammo Store
- 6 Fangs w/ 5 Multimeltas and a Meltagun on the Ancient in a Deathwind Drop Pod
I normally hate spending 650 points on static stuff but in this case I think it could work. The melta unit drops in the enemy lines deploying into cover, potentially with a Termie leader to tank hits, and maybe gets off a lucky snap to kill something with the heavy weapons while Split Fire lets the leader hit something else. The enemy is either going to overcommit or push away from that unit, potentially pushing toward the Space Wolf line in the process. I put the plasma cannons in a bunker on one side of the board and the lascannons in solid cover on the other, and just make it rain AP2 while they deal with the Deathwind and Multimeltas in their lines for a turn or two.
Crazy idea. Not sure it will work. What do you guys think?
I'm thinking of synergy here, not literal "single unit in a vacuum" stuff. So if you're going to tell me to take TWC a TWM Lord and a Stormwolf for these same points, well...basically, why even have a tactics thread when we can answer everything with that?
I would rather take 650pt of dreadnoughts in drop pods with similar equipment.
2 multimelta dreads in pods
2 plasma cannon dreds in pods
1 lascannon dreadnought.
660pt
Sure you don't have the same firepower, but you have better alpha strike power, as all your long fangs will snap fire first turn but the melta.
plus you almost double your units. 4 pods instead of 3, and 5 units instead of 3. You also have a decent enough deterrent from assault. Where every army will gladly throw anything at your long fangs to prevent them from firing, not everyone will toss a 5 man tactical squad at a dreadnought. Then your platform is mobile, which on melta, I argue will be better, plus the ability to assault vehicles and all sorts of other goodies while your drop pods hold the objectives.
I ran a list with only dreadnoughts and TWC twice recently and did pretty well.
Bjorn(helfrost)
Shield/axe + pod
dual heavy flamers +pod
multimelta heavy flamer +pod
dual autocannon
2 units of 4 TWC stormwolf
The dreadnoughts are amazing fire magnets, allowing the TWC to get to their targets (the heavy weapons teams and vehicles usually) on turn 2. With 3 pods, bjorn on foot (he really needs a pod though) and rifleman sniping stuff, it works out pretty well. I faced an army with 2 land speeders, 2 vindicators, 2 razorbacks and a whirlwind, thinking I would be crushed by the mass vehicles, however it went the other way pretty quickly. Alpha strike got first blood and pulled lots of fire while TWC ran up the field. Turn 2, most his anti tank was down and the dreadnoughts were free to do whatever.
My current planed loudout for the Long Fangs is with 4 Plasma Cannons in Imperial bunker with Coms relay and Ammo dump. AV 14, re-rolling reserves, re-rolling 1's, 4 S7 AP2 blasts for 210 points. It frees up a FA slot for an empty drop pod (so 2 full ones can drop in T1) and they work the relay so my Stormwolf arrives reliably. It's a pretty nice little package that works really well for my army.
Fenris Frost wrote:I'm toying with the idea of trying all of the various Long Fang units I've been testing out lately in one list.
Did the math. For about 650 you can get:
- 6 Fangs w/ 5 Lascannons
- 6 Fangs w/ 5 Plasma Cannons in an Imperial Bunker with Void Shield and Ammo Store
- 6 Fangs w/ 5 Multimeltas and a Meltagun on the Ancient in a Deathwind Drop Pod
I normally hate spending 650 points on static stuff but in this case I think it could work. The melta unit drops in the enemy lines deploying into cover, potentially with a Termie leader to tank hits, and maybe gets off a lucky snap to kill something with the heavy weapons while Split Fire lets the leader hit something else. The enemy is either going to overcommit or push away from that unit, potentially pushing toward the Space Wolf line in the process. I put the plasma cannons in a bunker on one side of the board and the lascannons in solid cover on the other, and just make it rain AP2 while they deal with the Deathwind and Multimeltas in their lines for a turn or two.
Crazy idea. Not sure it will work. What do you guys think?
6 Long fangs with multimeltas and melta gune + drops pod...... that's a LOT of points for a 1-shot weapon that will MAYBE kill 1 (you're 5/6 or LESS THAN 1.0 probability to even HIT a target, and then only 33% to even HIT your other target).
Secondly, I don't know how you missed re-rolls to hit potentially saving you from something that only trigger one a 1 to hit (which is an auto-miss for every unit ever)
gwarsh41 wrote:I would rather take 650pt of dreadnoughts in drop pods with similar equipment.
2 multimelta dreads in pods
2 plasma cannon dreds in pods
1 lascannon dreadnought.
660pt
Sure you don't have the same firepower, but you have better alpha strike power, as all your long fangs will snap fire first turn but the melta.
plus you almost double your units. 4 pods instead of 3, and 5 units instead of 3. You also have a decent enough deterrent from assault. Where every army will gladly throw anything at your long fangs to prevent them from firing, not everyone will toss a 5 man tactical squad at a dreadnought. Then your platform is mobile, which on melta, I argue will be better, plus the ability to assault vehicles and all sorts of other goodies while your drop pods hold the objectives.
I ran a list with only dreadnoughts and TWC twice recently and did pretty well.
Bjorn(helfrost)
Shield/axe + pod
dual heavy flamers +pod
multimelta heavy flamer +pod
dual autocannon
2 units of 4 TWC stormwolf
The dreadnoughts are amazing fire magnets, allowing the TWC to get to their targets (the heavy weapons teams and vehicles usually) on turn 2. With 3 pods, bjorn on foot (he really needs a pod though) and rifleman sniping stuff, it works out pretty well. I faced an army with 2 land speeders, 2 vindicators, 2 razorbacks and a whirlwind, thinking I would be crushed by the mass vehicles, however it went the other way pretty quickly. Alpha strike got first blood and pulled lots of fire while TWC ran up the field. Turn 2, most his anti tank was down and the dreadnoughts were free to do whatever.
Long Fangs are much easier to kill than a Dreadnought, and the Dreadnought can fire while moving. It seems much more sensible at the moment.
However - Dreadnoughts are elites and unless you're running Champions of Fenris, you only get 3 with ObSec pods. If you *ARE* running Champions, the pods *aren't* ObSec
I almost exclusively run Champs of fenris. Losing objective secured isn't as bad as everyone on the internet makes it out to be. I rarely face armies that spam troops, and I generally use my pods very aggressively, which doesn't always land them on an objective.
Are pods for elite choices objective secured? I thought only troop drop pods were objective secured.
As for that list, I am considering dropping Bjorn, or squeezing in room for him to be in a pod. Currently he doesn't do all that much. However with him in a pod, I would want to round up to 5 pods for a 3 pod alpha strike, so I need to free 70pt, which doesn't seem really easy.
Araenion wrote: My current planed loudout for the Long Fangs is with 4 Plasma Cannons in Imperial bunker with Coms relay and Ammo dump. AV 14, re-rolling reserves, re-rolling 1's, 4 S7 AP2 blasts for 210 points. It frees up a FA slot for an empty drop pod (so 2 full ones can drop in T1) and they work the relay so my Stormwolf arrives reliably. It's a pretty nice little package that works really well for my army.
I was going to run 4 or 5 plasma cannon long fangs myself, but I don't plan on the bunker having a comms relay because the Space Wolf detachment will get me the guaranteed Stormwolf in turn 2 anyway. I will definitely be using an ammo dump and probably void shields though. I may only run one drop pod. I've still got to buy and assemble a few things for my space wolves because I haven't used them since 3rd edition.
I always play Champs too. So no automatic reserves for me. I don't want Void shields because my opponents won't target it then. 4 plasma blasts are deadly, but not really a game changer, unlike my line of Wolf cavalry charging toward them. I don't need protection from alpha strike melta squads because they'd be insane to target anything else than my heavy hitters and I have an amazing bubblewrap in F. wolves.
gwarsh41 wrote:I almost exclusively run Champs of fenris. Losing objective secured isn't as bad as everyone on the internet makes it out to be. I rarely face armies that spam troops, and I generally use my pods very aggressively, which doesn't always land them on an objective.
I usually split my force between a CotGW for my elites/TWC and a CAD for my troops
gwarsh41 wrote:Are pods for elite choices objective secured? I thought only troop drop pods were objective secured.
No, elite pods are not ObSec.... TBH I can't remember what (if anything) I was thinking..... I was probably drunk
gwarsh41 wrote: I would rather take 650pt of dreadnoughts in drop pods with similar equipment.
2 multimelta dreads in pods
2 plasma cannon dreds in pods
1 lascannon dreadnought.
660pt
Sure you don't have the same firepower, but you have better alpha strike power, as all your long fangs will snap fire first turn but the melta.
plus you almost double your units. 4 pods instead of 3, and 5 units instead of 3. You also have a decent enough deterrent from assault. Where every army will gladly throw anything at your long fangs to prevent them from firing, not everyone will toss a 5 man tactical squad at a dreadnought. Then your platform is mobile, which on melta, I argue will be better, plus the ability to assault vehicles and all sorts of other goodies while your drop pods hold the objectives.
I ran a list with only dreadnoughts and TWC twice recently and did pretty well.
Bjorn(helfrost)
Shield/axe + pod
dual heavy flamers +pod
multimelta heavy flamer +pod
dual autocannon
2 units of 4 TWC stormwolf
The dreadnoughts are amazing fire magnets, allowing the TWC to get to their targets (the heavy weapons teams and vehicles usually) on turn 2. With 3 pods, bjorn on foot (he really needs a pod though) and rifleman sniping stuff, it works out pretty well. I faced an army with 2 land speeders, 2 vindicators, 2 razorbacks and a whirlwind, thinking I would be crushed by the mass vehicles, however it went the other way pretty quickly. Alpha strike got first blood and pulled lots of fire while TWC ran up the field. Turn 2, most his anti tank was down and the dreadnoughts were free to do whatever.
Good feedback. I think a few points got missed, though. The Long Fang loadout was only going to have the one pod, that unit is roughly 150 or so so it's basically a sucide unit. Albeit one that, if it survives, will cause problems next turn. I figured, "ehh. It's the same cost as a dread, just about, but with more melta shots and can go to ground or win light assaults." The jury's still out on this one, I have to try it out. But I don't know if a Dread at the same price would always be better. Definitely so against non-mech opponents.
The other two units of Plasma Cannons and Lascannons were going to be deployed elsewhere, not via pods. I'm not so hot on Pods lately. Even if you dedicate the army to it, you still fight piecemeal unless you pay the tax for some unused ones here or there. These guys would be deployed, potentially both in and on the battlements of the Bunker.
I *do* own five pods and numerous dreadnoughts, so I suppose I could give it a shot. They just seem so piddly in melee and their weapons loadouts are just so...meh. I feel like 650 points of Dreads would not do nearly as well offensively over the course of a game as those Fangs would.
Though...I wonder would it would be like to do both. That'd be pretty gross, eh? Four pods of Dreadnoughts (maybe one of them Bjorn), along with triple Long Fangs? You guys are probably right that the long range static Fang units would be better served by cheaper dreads, but I have to try it first before I commit either way.
I'm also considering a 140pt 5-man Scout unit, toting a combi-melta Sergeant, meltagun, and two plasma pistols. Infiltrating in the right place and then popping out for a good melta shot might be decent alongside a drop strike.
What I want to know is what exactly would I fill the rest of this army with? Seems like Troops are not a good choice anymore, no matter what build I make their points always seem really egregious (unless they are Blood Claws, but then you have the problem of them being inflexible).
Are you going to be droppoding the long fangs, remember if you do they will be snap firing and this is less reliable than hitting on a 3+. If just using it to help drop pod assault ignore my comment.
Hmm so I've come across a little conundrum... I've already got 2 units of 3x TWC, and I'm trying to figure out which of these would be a better investment for a tournament list - 2 Iron Priests to join those units, or a third unit of TWC?
On the one hand, a third unit adds even more target saturation into my target saturation-themed list and basically guarantees that at least 1-2 units will make it into combat intact.
On the other hand, Iron Priests have more survivability vs non-AP2 weaponry (mathematically, 2+ saves are approximately equivalent to 2 3+ saves, so 4W with 2+ should be better than 6W 3+ in most situations), come with S10 attacks (RAI), can LOS on a 2+, can be split off from their unit if needed (basically doubling my ability to score) and can tank to keep the rest of the unit alive. With higher saves and a lower wound count, they're more prone to the effects of bad luck though, which is a double-edged sword.
Fenris Frost wrote: I'm also considering a 140pt 5-man Scout unit, toting a combi-melta Sergeant, meltagun, and two plasma pistols. Infiltrating in the right place and then popping out for a good melta shot might be decent alongside a drop strike.
I was considering this also, albeit without plasma pistols, but you can't Infiltrate, since the WGPL doesn't have it. Shame, really. Scouts got so many restrictions that beat their purpose to begin with.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andilus Greatsword wrote: Hmm so I've come across a little conundrum... I've already got 2 units of 3x TWC, and I'm trying to figure out which of these would be a better investment for a tournament list - 2 Iron Priests to join those units, or a third unit of TWC?
On the one hand, a third unit adds even more target saturation into my target saturation-themed list and basically guarantees that at least 1-2 units will make it into combat intact.
On the other hand, Iron Priests have more survivability vs non-AP2 weaponry (mathematically, 2+ saves are approximately equivalent to 2 3+ saves, so 4W with 2+ should be better than 6W 3+ in most situations), come with S10 attacks (RAI), can LOS on a 2+, can be split off from their unit if needed (basically doubling my ability to score) and can tank to keep the rest of the unit alive. With higher saves and a lower wound count, they're more prone to the effects of bad luck though, which is a double-edged sword.
Problem with 3-man TWC units is that you only need to kill two from each squad to make them useless. Sure, 1 TWC might do some light damage, but it can be easily tarpited and forgotten about. I much prefer playing 5/6-man TWC, accompanied by a Rune Priest or two and a 2+ tanking Lord/Battle-leader. That unit will use 2+/3++, LOS and Cyberwolves to mitigate any and all casualties to the actual TWC. Depends on the list, but in the case of TWC, I'd rather take the max squad approach. You can still threaten 3 or even 4 units with that squad, since every part of it is self-sufficient.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: Hmm so I've come across a little conundrum... I've already got 2 units of 3x TWC, and I'm trying to figure out which of these would be a better investment for a tournament list - 2 Iron Priests to join those units, or a third unit of TWC?
On the one hand, a third unit adds even more target saturation into my target saturation-themed list and basically guarantees that at least 1-2 units will make it into combat intact.
On the other hand, Iron Priests have more survivability vs non-AP2 weaponry (mathematically, 2+ saves are approximately equivalent to 2 3+ saves, so 4W with 2+ should be better than 6W 3+ in most situations), come with S10 attacks (RAI), can LOS on a 2+, can be split off from their unit if needed (basically doubling my ability to score) and can tank to keep the rest of the unit alive. With higher saves and a lower wound count, they're more prone to the effects of bad luck though, which is a double-edged sword.
Problem with 3-man TWC units is that you only need to kill two from each squad to make them useless. Sure, 1 TWC might do some light damage, but it can be easily tarpited and forgotten about. I much prefer playing 5/6-man TWC, accompanied by a Rune Priest or two and a 2+ tanking Lord/Battle-leader. That unit will use 2+/3++, LOS and Cyberwolves to mitigate any and all casualties to the actual TWC. Depends on the list, but in the case of TWC, I'd rather take the max squad approach. You can still threaten 3 or even 4 units with that squad, since every part of it is self-sufficient.
pretre wrote:With three more though he can make the squads 5 and 4.
At only 1500pts though that'd take up a huge chunk of my lists... I mean, sure I could go that route, but I prefer target saturation and consider TWC to be my heavy hitters/ultimate distraction while my 10 objective secured scoring units move around with free reign. Ditching troops choices and tons of bodies in favour of a few more TWC doesn't seem like a great trade-off at that point level... maybe at 1850pts though.
Fenris Frost wrote: I'm also considering a 140pt 5-man Scout unit, toting a combi-melta Sergeant, meltagun, and two plasma pistols. Infiltrating in the right place and then popping out for a good melta shot might be decent alongside a drop strike.
I was considering this also, albeit without plasma pistols, but you can't Infiltrate, since the WGPL doesn't have it. Shame, really. Scouts got so many restrictions that beat their purpose to begin with.
Only one squad member has to have infiltrate, scout, and move through cover in order for the whole squad to benefit. That gives me an idea. Add an uber character to the squad and he can get close to the enemy.
That's...not how it works. Does it? I'm still a bit weak on 7th edition rules changes.
Andilus Greatsword, I didn't realise it was 1500 points, my bad. That changes things, since the level of firepower aimed at you won't be as harsh at that point level.
Araenion wrote: Andilus Greatsword, I didn't realise it was 1500 points, my bad. That changes things, since the level of firepower aimed at you won't be as harsh at that point level.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: Hmm so I've come across a little conundrum... I've already got 2 units of 3x TWC, and I'm trying to figure out which of these would be a better investment for a tournament list - 2 Iron Priests to join those units, or a third unit of TWC?
I would highly suggest magnetizing 3 or 4 of your TWC at the waist. It will save you some money and allow you to field a few of them as whatever you want. I recently bumped up to 10 (3 boxes and Herald) and I think 4 are magnetized. I have 2 Iron priests and a lord that I can easily swap out whenever I want.
I havent every run 10 TWC, but I have been running 2 units of 4 lately and having a good time. Iron priests with cyberwolves can be nice too, for the look out sir, and the little extra oomph when you split off to go deal with something else, like a devastator unit.
I played a 1250 army featured 3 hordes of BC with TDAWG leader. They did pretty well I have to say, especially against 2 bad matchups (Tau and Necrons).
They got units across the board by T2-3 and once they got in they were very hard to shift and did a lot of damage (for the squads that were more or less still at full strength by that point).
The TDAWG really soaks up the fire. I gave them SS/WC and Melta Bombs, all were useful and made them a solid toolbox for 50 points. The trick to using them is being judicious about what hits to make them take and which to pass. For massed AP3 or higher I just tanked them all out one at a time. For low volume AP2 or less I would try to use the Storm Shield. If there was a lot of AP2 I started rolling LoS's and trying to pass those off.
Each BC unit was maxed out and had a PF in there, with Rage the 3 attacks on the charge is worth it for sure.
I think in most of my lists I will try to squeeze one unit of these guys in there, they just manage to be a very big pain in the butt for my opponent.
On a side note, I really want to try this list out:
1500
HQ Ulrik
Elites
Iron Priest
Twolf
Troops
10x GH 2x Plasma
Rhino
Wolf Standard
10x GH 2x Plasma
Rhino
Fast Attack
3x Twolves
PF 3x Storm Shields
Formation
Arjack's Shield Bros (Arjack + 5x TH/SS TDAWG)
LRC with MM
Keep the Rhinos near-ish to the LRC so that Ulrik can dish out PE for them, then they in turn can keep close enough to give the Shield Bros +1 attack (gives the army a good edge against other deathstars, MC's etc).
Araenion wrote:I was considering this also, albeit without plasma pistols, but you can't Infiltrate, since the WGPL doesn't have it. Shame, really. Scouts got so many restrictions that beat their purpose to begin with.
@Araenion - Infiltrate rule is "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule" so the WGPL doesn't prevent Infiltrate (or Scout, as it's the same wording).
You just can't attach an IC to the unit (ICs without Infiltrate can't attach to units who have it before deployment...so basically you can attach to them but only if they aren't infiltrating).
I have a silly idea, that, for its points, is most likely a waste, but might be fun.
Naked wolf guard, if run with champs of fenris, would this cause as much damage as 15 blood claws?
They are the exact same cost, and WG will have 1 more attack when charged, and in every round aside from the first.
If my math is right, 10 WS5 WG will have about 33 hits on the first round, where 15 blood claws will only net about 28. These are both against weapon skill 4 opponents, WG will keep their lead in the second round, as they will then have the same amount of attacks as the blood claws. What is more, is that specialist melee weapons will be better all around. No longer are you taking a WS3 powerfist, now its WS5, and will have 3 attacks on the charge (just like a blood claw) and 2 attacks every round after (twice as much as a blood claw)
Then, you get 6 jump pack WG to 10 jump BC, and 7 biker WG to 10 bike BC. I feel like the strategy of taking blood claws for the assault oomph is negated by wolf guard being better at stacking S4 wounds up. The downside is you cant get a legit special weapon, but you can take melta bombs and more special weapons.
I really cant understand why blood claws would be taken outside of someone wanting a lot of bodies.
gwarsh41 wrote: I have a silly idea, that, for its points, is most likely a waste, but might be fun.
Naked wolf guard, if run with champs of fenris, would this cause as much damage as 15 blood claws?
They are the exact same cost, and WG will have 1 more attack when charged, and in every round aside from the first.
If my math is right, 10 WS5 WG will have about 33 hits on the first round, where 15 blood claws will only net about 28. These are both against weapon skill 4 opponents, WG will keep their lead in the second round, as they will then have the same amount of attacks as the blood claws. What is more, is that specialist melee weapons will be better all around. No longer are you taking a WS3 powerfist, now its WS5, and will have 3 attacks on the charge (just like a blood claw) and 2 attacks every round after (twice as much as a blood claw)
Then, you get 6 jump pack WG to 10 jump BC, and 7 biker WG to 10 bike BC. I feel like the strategy of taking blood claws for the assault oomph is negated by wolf guard being better at stacking S4 wounds up. The downside is you cant get a legit special weapon, but you can take melta bombs and more special weapons.
I really cant understand why blood claws would be taken outside of someone wanting a lot of bodies.
Not sure what you mean by the exact same cost, BC are 2/3 the cost of WG with the same loadout. Also, WG can't be lead by a TDAWG (unless you give one squad Arjack).
That is exactly the point, you get 15 bodies with T4 3+ armor, lots of attacks and a 2+ tank to lead them for a pretty good price.
Well, the quality of the attacks is higher and return damage is lessened in melee, so those are key points. But a million T4 3+ save bodies is worth its' own merits.
Adding Arjac seems awesome until you realize it'd be almost another 10 Blood Claws.
It'd be pretty effective to have Ulrik with them, though. Re-rolling to hit roll sof 3 in melee is pretty sick.
I guess I'd say if I were going on foot, go for the Blood Claws, but if I were using something to deploy out of (Raider or Stormwolf), I'd go for Wolf Guard.
The thing is with the Blood Claws, once you have them, you don't really need to gear them up beyond the termie leader. Question is, what can you get for those extra points in a Wolf Guard unit? ~50 points can add some useful stuff (like untargetable hidden power weapons). I don't think you'd ever want a frost weapon, though -- much too expensive!
Not sure what you mean by the exact same cost, BC are 2/3 the cost of WG with the same loadout. Also, WG can't be lead by a TDAWG (unless you give one squad Arjack).
That is exactly the point, you get 15 bodies with T4 3+ armor, lots of attacks and a 2+ tank to lead them for a pretty good price.
10WG is the exact same cost as 15BC.
@Fenris Frost
A hidden powerfist, or a few power weapons, or even a slew of melta bombs would be pretty nice.
I've been really reconsidering the power fist lately.
Much of the time when I'm building lists I have a spare 100 or so points that wouldn't yield a terribly effective unit -- things like an ML1 Rune Priest or a Whirlwind, etc. But I think in the future I might add some hidden Power Fists with these points to see if I can have a little assault insurance. Losing one Razorback with Blood Claws inside (pretty meh on its' own) might be worth several units having the extra power fist oomph.
I'm considering that Wolf Guard unit with 3 fists.
On the Power Fist, I have never been sorry that I still take them.
Wolf Scouts: I took some out last night. Basically 10 with 9x Bolt Guns and a Plasma-Gun, Cammo Cloaks and Out Flanked them.
They did not show up till Turn 3, but when they did they mad a major impact even though dice were my Foe that night.
I had a Nurgel 4x AC Havoc Squad that was causing all sorts of Havoc in my ranks chewing quickly though my Long Fangs. I Showed up and Fed them my Plasma Gun and Bolt Guns killing all but 2 quickly. I managed to make all of my Cover Saves vs the Auto-Cannons [Some of the few Saves I made in the game] The Next Turn I decided to Assault them to avoid being shot up by a Terminator Squad Killing one in the Assault. That is were that went wrong. My dice went Cold and I could just not kill the last one off. The last three turns of the game were the 6 of them trying to kill off one guy with a Auto-Cannon.
Looking at it though, with out my cursed dice they would have done real well and should have ended up in control of Set of Ruins overlook a good part of the field and been a thorn in my opponent's side.
Conclusions If Outflanking they need the WGPL or Wolf Scouts with a Power Weapon of some sort.
Wolf Bolter Scouts can still do a lot of Damage even with only the basics.
Camo Cloaks are always worth it.
I still think they are vary viable, but I need to play a few more games to see if the results were just flukes or not.
So, one thought: Adding a Pack Leader in Terminator armor to Blood Claws = 47 total points.
Adding an Iron Priest = 55
For 8 extra points you get the ability to still make sweeping advances, better LoS (for those AP2 weapons), ability to add some cyber wolves, an extra attack, and S8 AP2 without spending additional points to upgrade your terminator's power weapon. You lose an elite slot.
Mavnas wrote: So, one thought: Adding a Pack Leader in Terminator armor to Blood Claws = 47 total points.
Adding an Iron Priest = 55
For 8 extra points you get the ability to still make sweeping advances, better LoS (for those AP2 weapons), ability to add some cyber wolves, an extra attack, and S8 AP2 without spending additional points to upgrade your terminator's power weapon. You lose an elite slot.
Remember Servitors don't take up a slot with an Iron priest around so you can chuck them in for cheap wounds as well if you wanted.
Mavnas wrote: So, one thought: Adding a Pack Leader in Terminator armor to Blood Claws = 47 total points.
Adding an Iron Priest = 55
For 8 extra points you get the ability to still make sweeping advances, better LoS (for those AP2 weapons), ability to add some cyber wolves, an extra attack, and S8 AP2 without spending additional points to upgrade your terminator's power weapon. You lose an elite slot.
Hmm that's an interesting idea. Man, just giving Iron Priests the IC rule has made them so much more viable than before. I wanna get an apoc game in with all of my SW minis sometime just to try some of these ideas out.
Much of the time when I'm building lists I have a spare 100 or so points that wouldn't yield a terribly effective unit -- things like an ML1 Rune Priest or a Whirlwind, etc. But I think in the future I might add some hidden Power Fists with these points to see if I can have a little assault insurance. Losing one Razorback with Blood Claws inside (pretty meh on its' own) might be worth several units having the extra power fist oomph.
I'm considering that Wolf Guard unit with 3 fists.
Let me know how it goes, I might just be giving it a try soon too.
I like the iron priest instead of pack leader idea. I run company of the great wolf pretty often, so elite choices are not hard to come by. The iron priest is AP1 btw, always attack with the servo arm.
I was frequently the victim of Greg Knight Techmarine Grenade caddies in their previous incarnation. Having Independent Iron Priests has been too long in coming if you ask me.
Between mounting them on Thunderwolves and sticking them in squads of Grey Hunters or Blood Claws we have lots of fun ways to deliver that Servo Arm where we want it.
Rune Priest
ML2
Armor of Russ
Helm of Durfast
Power Axe (or staff or sword to taste)
Plasma Pistol if you have the points, or a combi-plas works well as well.
Combine with
Iron Priest
Thunderwolf Mount
w/ Cyberwolf
You roll on Biomancy, ideally getting Iron Arm, but Endurance is also a great force multiplier, and nothing besides Hemo is bad really, esp with the Helm.
If you get Iron Arm then the entire unit jumps to T8 with 2+ saves all around, and is overall very killy.
It's kind of a budget mini-deathstar that clocks in a 260-275 points with lots of attacks at different init steps and it's very easy to hide and maneuver.
Has anyone tried a large squad of WG on bikes with a biker rune priest yet? Roll on SW powers and if you get shrouded you have a 2+ jink and can bring all the CC goodies you want. It would be expensive as heck though...
Havent tried any bikers outside of HQ bikers chilling with TWC. A full squad is an investment I don't care to make without playtesting. I plan on seeing if a friend will let me proxy a bit before I invest a bunch.
I do feel that TWC are better than bikers at everything but speed. You could take the same amount of points of WG bilkers in TWC, the same priest and biomancy hoping for endurance (same 1/3 chance as the shrouding power)
No combi weapons stinks, but much heavier CC power.
I tried a stormwolf with Ulrik and a standard bearing 5 man GH squad inside. 3rd turn I came on and was within 6" of over 3 models, they all rapid fired and in CC had 4 attacks in the first round. It was very awesome. When I have more pods, I plan on running a pod heavy army with the same stormwolf. Use the wolves unleashed to ensure it is in on turn 2.
To double check, you still have to declare an enemy with ulrik the slayer, right? He doesn't have PF everything?
My plan if using that combo would be 5 GH all with CCW, plus a TDAWG leader with Frost sword and maybe combi-melta. If points allow, I'd throw in a Melta gun in the GH team. Throw in Ulrik and this squad can throw ridicolous punch, while also buffing your entire army. It works well even if Ulrik isn't there, and spares you 150 points.
The buff is awesome but the way I see it that was ~500 points that wasn't on your board until turn 3, so I don't know how I'd feel about it.
Besides if all those models rapid fired how'd they charge into CC anyway?!
Karlosvic had it, 3 units rapid fired at be'lakor, then he charged into a unit, killed 4, then died to the 24 return attacks.
If I was to run that unit again, it would not be with champs of fenris, it would be wolves unleashed, just to make sure I can get the unit in on turn 2. I would probably be running a troop heavy drop pod and transport army. Possibly pick up some bikes to have a little fun with as well.
The thread in this forum about using the Imperial Bunker offensively with the Escape Hatch seems like it would be a boon to shootier units, or ones with characters for tanking. I am definitely going to try this since I've been taking the Bunker anyway, getting out that close to the enemy on turn 1 saves me a drop pod's worth of points or so, plus the unit can be bigger than the limiting 10-man capacity in a pod.
Any thoughts on how we can best utilize this? I'm thinking Ulrik and a Priest with a big squad of Grey Hunters kitted to the nines.
I've been running the following with great success. (1500 pts)
Wolf Lord - wolf claw, storm shield, runic armour, thunderwolf.
5 x Thunderwolves - 3 x storm shield, thunder hammer, 2 x melta bombs.
Rune priest - helm of Durfast, armour of russ, psychic hood ML2, melta bombs, digital weapons.
GH x 9 - 5 x CCW, melta, Power fist, standard, WGPL with power fist and combi-melta.
Drop pod.
GH x 10 - 6 x CCW, 2 x melta, power fist, WGPL a with power fist and combi-melta.
Drop pod.
GH x 10 - 6 x CCW, 2 x plasma gun, power fist, WGPL a with power fist and combi-melta.
Drop pod.
Yea, I gave in and decided that it's ok to take multiple relics on one guy. Every one else was doing it. When your facing biker captains with the shield eternal and that flaming sword.... You know the saying; if you can't beat em'...
Anyway what you gonna do? Kill the GH? Now the Thunderwolves are gonna mess you up. Kill the Thunderwolves? You probably couldn't kill them all and now the GH are continuing to mess you up. That auto reserves thing is the best thing ever to happen to drop pod grey hunters.
Looks like a sweet list, and one I could try out too! I like to give my TWC leader a wolf claw, and generally he does challenges for PF, while my lord slaps the unit so hard that by I1 the powerfist is slapping the challenger.
Do you prefer biomancy, or tempestus on the RP? Ignore cover living lightning should be nice, but ignore cover smite should also be cool.
gwarsh41 wrote: Looks like a sweet list, and one I could try out too! I like to give my TWC leader a wolf claw, and generally he does challenges for PF, while my lord slaps the unit so hard that by I1 the powerfist is slapping the challenger.
Do you prefer biomancy, or tempestus on the RP? Ignore cover living lightning should be nice, but ignore cover smite should also be cool.
Don't know yes, I have mostly been using a Divination Priest. The one time I took out a Tempest Priest I put him with my Blood Claws in a Stormwolf and just after unloading the other player had to head out.
Thanks. For psychic disciplines it depends on the opponent. Against tyranids I'll take biomancy every time. Against Toughness 3 tempestus is good. Divination when you need to make sure those plasmas do a good job. I tend to steer away from divination though because he already has the helm of Durfast. I know it's not popular, but I actually like Telekinesis when my opponent has a vehicle heavy list. Obdurate on Mechanicum's ability to hit flyers is great, and a Str 6 beam with ignores cover out of a drop pod is nothing to sniff at.
Well I just played a game with the Champions of Fenris using the Arjac Formation. Normally 1st times using a unit is a cure that fails utterly, but I think my Bad Karma with Stormwolves took all of that up with this game Vs AM [Guard].
The list was a variation of my Logan Wing lead by Ragnar. I also used this to test two of my Battle-Theories.
Battle-Theories: >Give the Arjac and buddies a try.
>More Testing with the Stormwolf/Skyshield Landing Pad Tactic
>Bare Bones Wolf Guard as a viable unit.
Ragnar was in a Stormwolf with a Divination Rune Priest [I had planed on going with Biomancy, but I forgot that was part of the initial plan until Turn 2 ] and 10 Bare Bones Power Armored Wolf Guard (The WGPL had paired Wolf Claws) in the Storm Wolf sitting on the Skyshield
Landing Pad Ready for Take off.
Arjac and his Wolf Guard in the LRC with a Wolf Lord (Krakenbone Sword] and a Tempest Rune Priest in Terminator Armor.
The other was a Terminator Squad [Paired Wolf Claws, 3x with Wolf Claw/Chain Fist, Assault Cannon/Power Maul] just Teleporting in [Did not Show up to Turn 3.
Arjac and his Precision Thunder Hammer Whack-A-Mole Drill Team killed off 2 Chimeras, 2x Melta Vet Squads, a Sniper Team. The best kill was the Taurox that I rolled 3x 6s in a row, 6 To Hit, 6 to Pen, 6 for the Explosion Radius. The Death Toll for that one Hammer Throw was, 1x Taurox, 6 Vets and 3 Scions.
The Wolf Guard Terminators mostly killed off Creed and his Command squad.
Stormwolf...Turn one catches every weapon that could fire at him, Pie Plates front The Sky, Basilisk Rounds, Lost count of the HK Missiles and Auto Cannon shots, and nothing happened. The a stupid HWS gets a Luck shot and Immobilizes it before it could leave the Landing Pad... . I think I am cursed with my Stormwolves. Forcing Ragnar to hitch a ride on the LRC [After managing to pull off a Turn One Assault] as I was not going to cross a open field with 2 Pie Plates running around. Once I got them past a HWT, a Chimera finally got to the Basilisk and silenced it.
Conclusions: >Arjac's Formation Rocks, it was fun watching Las-Guns Needing 6's to wound. I will use this one again.
>Stormwolf/Skyshield Landing Pad, still don't know. Every time I pull it out everything hat can go wrong does and it is usually freak rolls.
I'm about to finish assembling and painting my space wolves to use them again and I had a couple units I was trying to plan out before I did so.
For a unit of bloodclaws in a stormwolf, would it be better to attach Ulrik or a generic Wolf priest with the mark of the wulfen?
Thunderwolf Cavalry, I'm debating a wolf guard battle leader with the armor of russ or a wolf lord with auric armor leading the charge to soak up fire. Is this a waste of their abilities? Figured I'd have a couple wolves or a storm shield model nearby to los with too just in case.
I know a lot of people have advocated iron priests in the twc too, but I was more tempted by a wolf priest on a bike in the unit. Seems pricey though when I could just get several more bare twc instead.
Ulrik is the accepted accompaniment for most things in a Storm Wolf, just because his buff extends out of the plane itself, and is Preferred Enemy without any restrictions as opposed to being relegated to a unit type for a regular Wolf Priest.
lessthanjeff wrote: I'm about to finish assembling and painting my space wolves to use them again and I had a couple units I was trying to plan out before I did so.
Experimentation if half the fun.
For a unit of bloodclaws in a stormwolf, would it be better to attach Ulrik or a generic Wolf priest with the mark of the wulfen?
I think I more depends on what you face and what you are planning on throwing them at.
Ulrik: He is a Multi-Tool an buffs those around him to.
Wolf Priest: Can be cheaper and does great if you are planning on going after just one Type of Target.
There are some more subtle differences, but hat is the crux of it.
Thunderwolf Cavalry, I'm debating a wolf guard battle leader with the armor of russ or a wolf lord with auric armor leading the charge to soak up fire. Is this a waste of their abilities? Figured I'd have a couple wolves or a storm shield model nearby to los with too just in case.
Either are a good choice. Storm Shields are never a bad choice.
I know a lot of people have advocated iron priests in the twc too, but I was more tempted by a wolf priest on a bike in the unit. Seems pricey though when I could just get several more bare twc instead.
Iron Priest: What the Iron Priest gives you are multiple S10 AP1 Attacks in Close Combat real cheap, that and the 2+ Save. Tack on some Cyberwolves and he can take a lot of Damage.
Wolf Priest: This is a great choice for a Buffing your TWC.
Rune Priest: This has started to be popular and relatively cheap way to add Biomancy to your TWC.
Whoops, I guess the artifact is called the Wulfen Stone.
Thanks for the input. I usually play lots of small units in my other armies, so I like the idea of just a few hard hitting units in this one.
So far I'm looking at one big thunderwolf cavalry unit with a couple characters, 1 large bloodclaw unit in a stormwolf with a couple characters, and then one terminator unit with a couple characters coming by droppod. A final min bloodclaw unit would fill my troop reqs and sit back on an objective.
The 4 wolf guard terminators would have combi plasma (and a couple with stormshields), 1 wolf priest with combi-plasma, and 1 rune priest with helm of durfast and combi plasma all in a drop-pod for first turn arrival. Seems like it would wipe out any one vehicle, monstrous creature, or unit and then be tough to remove in response.
It's making me nervous having so few units like this because it's so different from my other armies. I also hate seeing that each unit costs 500ish points, but thought it would be fun to mix it up like that. I may have to trim some points here and there to run a couple long fang units or squeeze in my old trusty vindicare assassin.
You'd think the plasma would be effective, but it often isn't. Enough will miss that it won't get the job done against most MCs and cover is pretty ubiquitous. I know it's sarcrilege but I've had better luck using weaker weapons in larger numbers than I ever have with plasma.
Fenris Frost wrote: You'd think the plasma would be effective, but it often isn't. Enough will miss that it won't get the job done against most MCs and cover is pretty ubiquitous. I know it's sarcrilege but I've had better luck using weaker weapons in larger numbers than I ever have with plasma.
I don't know about Wolf Guard with Combi-Plasmas, but I always do good with mine.
My real problem with my Drop Pod Plasma Hunters is 90% of the time the two Plasma Guns kill off the Vehicle before anything leaving me with nothing else to fire at the rear AV10 Armor.
I tested rolled it out a fair number of times against a lot of units I'd want to wipe out first turn like flying tyrant, riptide, wraithknight, and centurions. I think I had maybe 1 in 20 test rolls not wipe out the target. It's that you get 12 shots rerolling 1's to hit and wound that wipes them out. The priest also adds a little extra versatility with his spells but I was planning on Living Lightning.
Monstrous creatures and vehicles don't get cover saves for just being in the area terrain, so I would think the drop pod placement and subsequent move should make it pretty consistent that you can deny them a save. Even without cover though, I was rolling through the tyrant's jink and the riptide's invuln.
What are people's thoughts on the Bite of Fenris vs. Combi-plasma? I usually like to throw a combi-plasma on a Wolf Priest when I stick him with a BC pack that also has Plasmaguns. Just wondering because the combi and the Bite are the same price but I like the option of having Helfrost or a stronger bolter shot that ignores cover without having to worry about overheating and blasting my Wolf Priest's face off.
Battle-Theories: >Give the Arjac and buddies a try.
>More Testing with the Stormwolf/Skyshield Landing Pad Tactic
>Bare Bones Wolf Guard as a viable unit.
I really want to try bare bones wolf guard as well. On paper, 10 WG will beat 15 blood claws in damage output against WS3 and up. Cool to hear that Arjac did so well too, that formation is the soul reason I bought a land raider. Putting WG with Ragnar just seems so much more right than blood claws, I can't believe I never thought of that, thank you!
lessthanjeff wrote: I tested rolled it out a fair number of times against a lot of units I'd want to wipe out first turn like flying tyrant, riptide, wraithknight, and centurions. I think I had maybe 1 in 20 test rolls not wipe out the target. It's that you get 12 shots rerolling 1's to hit and wound that wipes them out. The priest also adds a little extra versatility with his spells but I was planning on Living Lightning.
Monstrous creatures and vehicles don't get cover saves for just being in the area terrain, so I would think the drop pod placement and subsequent move should make it pretty consistent that you can deny them a save. Even without cover though, I was rolling through the tyrant's jink and the riptide's invuln.
Monstrous Creatures do get a cover save for area terrain, though. 12 combi shots, re-rolling 1's, and one of them ignoring cover and re-rolling entirely, is probably pretty effective. I don't consider that a very durable unit though, I could see it getting punked (and likely giving up Warlord+potentially more VP) pretty easily. Remember also that a Wolf Priest only gives preferred enemy against one unit type, decided before the game. Ulrik would probably be a better choice, I think, for a comparable points investment. You lose a plasma shot though, I believe. Tough sell either way.
One of the things I hate about the codex is there are really no more effective cheap options, you have to blow points all over on Wargear and really end up no better off survivability-wise much of the time.
Battle-Theories: >Give the Arjac and buddies a try.
>More Testing with the Stormwolf/Skyshield Landing Pad Tactic
>Bare Bones Wolf Guard as a viable unit.
I really want to try bare bones wolf guard as well. On paper, 10 WG will beat 15 blood claws in damage output against WS3 and up. Cool to hear that Arjac did so well too, that formation is the soul reason I bought a land raider. Putting WG with Ragnar just seems so much more right than blood claws, I can't believe I never thought of that, thank you!
Well next time I am just putting him in a Pod with His Wolf Guard an a Rune Priest with Biomancy.
Here is the rough base of what I have planed, it is still under refinement.
The Wolves Unleashed Detachment (2000 pts)
Spoiler:
Ragnar Blackmane, 195 pts (Warlord)
Rune Priest 145 pts (Bolt Pistol; Psychic Hood; Runic Sword; Digital Weapons; Melta Bombs; The Armor of Russr; Psyker (Mastery Level 2); Biomancy)
Power Armored Wolf Guard, 249 pts
>Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Wolf Claw; Power Fist)
>7x Wolf Guard (Bolt Pistol, Chainsword)
>Drop Pod (Locator Beacon; Deathwind Missile Launcher)
Wolf Lord in Terminator Armor, 180 pts (Storm Bolter; Digital Weapons; Black Death)
Wolf Guard Void Claws, 240 pts
Wolf Guard Terminators
>Wolf Guard Terminator Leader (Two Wolf Claws)
>4x Wolf Guard Terminators ( Two Wolf Claws)
Arjac and the Shieldbrothers is a great formation. Everything in the unit is good, and when you add all the bonuses up it makes the 3ppm premium of the TH/SS TDAWG worth it (over codex Termies with TH/SS that is).
The only issue with them is finding a good enough target to focus that 355 points at. They excel against other melee deathstars and MC's, but in my last game they were basically chewing through tactical squads, which is OK I guess, but not their real bread and butter.
I stuck Ulrik in the unit the first time I played them and he made the whole formation godly, from the guns on the LRC to Arjac's hammer toss, etc, being able to re-roll ones is just so satisfying.
Arjac at the fore of the unit also lets you break up wound saturation with Look out Sirs, I tanked about 21 AP2/1 shots in a single shooting phase (thanks grav guns!) and being able to roll the 3++ saves out one at a time worked out well.
Fenris Frost wrote: Monstrous Creatures do get a cover save for area terrain, though. 12 combi shots, re-rolling 1's, and one of them ignoring cover and re-rolling entirely, is probably pretty effective. I don't consider that a very durable unit though, I could see it getting punked (and likely giving up Warlord+potentially more VP) pretty easily. Remember also that a Wolf Priest only gives preferred enemy against one unit type, decided before the game. Ulrik would probably be a better choice, I think, for a comparable points investment. You lose a plasma shot though, I believe. Tough sell either way.
One of the things I hate about the codex is there are really no more effective cheap options, you have to blow points all over on Wargear and really end up no better off survivability-wise much of the time.
Interesting, I thought the specification about needing 25% coverage was for vehicles and monstrous creatures. That will make it less likely that they knock out a wraithknight in the opening volley, but most of the other units I ran numbers against a 5++ or 4+ jink anyway. Averages still give over 6 wounds to centurions, obliterators, and other devastator equivalent units, 4 wounds to Flying Tyrants, and 5 wounds to a riptide.
Alas, Ulrik is already penciled in with a storm wolf full of blood claws unit. The drop pod unit won't be giving up warlord for me though (nor do I see them giving up any other victory points unless it's purge the alien). Survivability wise, I will be depending on the couple storm shields and the terminator armor to protect the two priests though. It's entirely possible they'll be wiped out in the following turn, but they seem to have pretty good odds of wiping out the one unit that poses the greatest threat to them so hopefully the termies out front can endure the attacks of the rest of the army pretty well. Maybe I should look at regular wolf guard to cram a couple more combi-plasmas in and put a WGBL in termie armor and storm shield out front instead.
Fenris Frost wrote: Monstrous Creatures do get a cover save for area terrain, though. 12 combi shots, re-rolling 1's, and one of them ignoring cover and re-rolling entirely, is probably pretty effective. I don't consider that a very durable unit though, I could see it getting punked (and likely giving up Warlord+potentially more VP) pretty easily. Remember also that a Wolf Priest only gives preferred enemy against one unit type, decided before the game. Ulrik would probably be a better choice, I think, for a comparable points investment. You lose a plasma shot though, I believe. Tough sell either way.
One of the things I hate about the codex is there are really no more effective cheap options, you have to blow points all over on Wargear and really end up no better off survivability-wise much of the time.
Interesting, I thought the specification about needing 25% coverage was for vehicles and monstrous creatures. That will make it less likely that they knock out a wraithknight in the opening volley, but most of the other units I ran numbers against a 5++ or 4+ jink anyway. Averages still give over 6 wounds to centurions, obliterators, and other devastator equivalent units, 4 wounds to Flying Tyrants, and 5 wounds to a riptide.
Alas, Ulrik is already penciled in with a storm wolf full of blood claws unit. The drop pod unit won't be giving up warlord for me though (nor do I see them giving up any other victory points unless it's purge the alien). Survivability wise, I will be depending on the couple storm shields and the terminator armor to protect the two priests though. It's entirely possible they'll be wiped out in the following turn, but they seem to have pretty good odds of wiping out the one unit that poses the greatest threat to them so hopefully the termies out front can endure the attacks of the rest of the army pretty well. Maybe I should look at regular wolf guard to cram a couple more combi-plasmas in and put a WGBL in termie armor and storm shield out front instead.
Ruins are the one class of terrain where you do not need to be 25% obscure any more. There is no "area terrain" as something defined in the rule book anymore, but the new "Ruins" are basically 6th ed. "area terrain"
Fenris Frost wrote: Monstrous Creatures do get a cover save for area terrain, though. 12 combi shots, re-rolling 1's, and one of them ignoring cover and re-rolling entirely, is probably pretty effective. I don't consider that a very durable unit though, I could see it getting punked (and likely giving up Warlord+potentially more VP) pretty easily. Remember also that a Wolf Priest only gives preferred enemy against one unit type, decided before the game. Ulrik would probably be a better choice, I think, for a comparable points investment. You lose a plasma shot though, I believe. Tough sell either way.
One of the things I hate about the codex is there are really no more effective cheap options, you have to blow points all over on Wargear and really end up no better off survivability-wise much of the time.
Interesting, I thought the specification about needing 25% coverage was for vehicles and monstrous creatures. That will make it less likely that they knock out a wraithknight in the opening volley, but most of the other units I ran numbers against a 5++ or 4+ jink anyway. Averages still give over 6 wounds to centurions, obliterators, and other devastator equivalent units, 4 wounds to Flying Tyrants, and 5 wounds to a riptide.
Alas, Ulrik is already penciled in with a storm wolf full of blood claws unit. The drop pod unit won't be giving up warlord for me though (nor do I see them giving up any other victory points unless it's purge the alien). Survivability wise, I will be depending on the couple storm shields and the terminator armor to protect the two priests though. It's entirely possible they'll be wiped out in the following turn, but they seem to have pretty good odds of wiping out the one unit that poses the greatest threat to them so hopefully the termies out front can endure the attacks of the rest of the army pretty well. Maybe I should look at regular wolf guard to cram a couple more combi-plasmas in and put a WGBL in termie armor and storm shield out front instead.
Ruins are the one class of terrain where you do not need to be 25% obscure any more. There is no "area terrain" as something defined in the rule book anymore, but the new "Ruins" are basically 6th ed. "area terrain"
It's a little more esoteric than that, they opted to go with a language based thing. Anything that says it gives a cover save for being "in cover behind" it is a thing requiring 25% obscured for the save (regardless of what model it is). There's a bold paragraph in the rules at the beginning of the section on cover explaining it.
Being "in cover behind" pretty much anything gets a cover save, and being "in" anything that is difficult terrain confers a 5+. Vehicles have an exception to "in" cover in their rules. MCs don't.
It's written in a streamlined way but it can be confusing because they decided to delineate language that we normally might have considered to mean the same thing.
I believe rubble also specifies not needing 25% too. I was thinking there's another as well, but I'd have to check.
I'm starting to lean towards just taking two wolf guard drop pod units of 6 or 7 combi plasmas instead of one unit with a rune and wolf priest too. Having multiple units would also increase the value of Ulrik being placed with them, so maybe I'd pull him from the Stormwolf to give two bigger units preferred enemy. Not sure what I'd do with a 3rd droppod to get the others both in on first turn though, maybe a dreadnought with assault cannon and heavy flamer.
I find it's better to go with the Helfrost cannon on Dreads. I don't know what it is but they keep coming up huge for me, and the ability to switch between high strength and decent AP3 blast is pretty flexible during a game.
Actually it's "in cover behind" difficult terrain that gives you a cover save. Monstrous creatures (or anything else for that matter) need to be in ruins(4+) or a forest(5+) or craters(6+) to get a cover save if not 25% obscured.
Gamerely wrote: I was wanting to try running The Great Company detachment sometime. Anybody have any luck with it as a detachment?
I have been Having S0-So luck with it and LUCK is the key word.
I have been using it with Arjac's Shield Brothers, a Wolf Guard Terminator Squad and Power Armored Wolf Guard Pack with Ragnar in a Stormwolf.
Arjac and His Terminators Wreck Face and the Terminator Wolf Guard do well, but I keep getting freak luck with my Stormwolf and having it getting Immobilized while on the Landing Pad or making my Jink for Every Penetrating Hit and then Tanking the 3 Glancing Hits.
Gamerely wrote: I was wanting to try running The Great Company detachment sometime. Anybody have any luck with it as a detachment?
I have been Having S0-So luck with it and LUCK is the key word.
I have been using it with Arjac's Shield Brothers, a Wolf Guard Terminator Squad and Power Armored Wolf Guard Pack with Ragnar in a Stormwolf.
Arjac and His Terminators Wreck Face and the Terminator Wolf Guard do well, but I keep getting freak luck with my Stormwolf and having it getting Immobilized while on the Landing Pad or making my Jink for Every Penetrating Hit and then Tanking the 3 Glancing Hits.
Otherwise though I like it.
Hmhm, I was wanting to give it a try. Seems like a good way of bringing a little bit of everything and a great way of seeing how it all works together. I may need to bring some Dreads though. Gamerely loves Dreads.
I like to run units of 4 TWC 1. Storm shield, bolt pistol
2. Wolf claw, bolt pistol
3. power fist, bolt pistol
4, leader: Storm shield wolf claw
Only trick is making sure each wolf is placed where they need to be based on what they are closest too. It has worked out pretty well for me in a bunch of games. Managed to wipe the floor with 20 fles hounds once, that was fun!
Gamerely wrote: I was wanting to try running The Great Company detachment sometime. Anybody have any luck with it as a detachment?
I use it to get a bunch of TWC. It's totally great for getting the toys you want
Feel free to share how you load them out. That's my weakest part I feel. Outfitting everybody.
I ran:
Sisters CAD Celestine
Priest
5 SOB with Melta/Flamer in Repressor
5 SOB with Melta/Flamer in Repressor
5 Dominions with 4 Melta in Repressor
5 Dominions with 4 Melta in TL-MM Immo
Exorcist
Exorcist
5 Retributors with 4 HF, Combi-Flamer (drop pod from SW)
CotGW
Wolf Lord on TWM with Krakenbone and Storm Shield
Iron Priest on TWM
Iron Priest on TWM
4 TWC (SS/WC, SS/CCW, PF/BP, BP/CCW)
Drop Pod
1850
3 solid wins against C:SM (Cents, TFC, Knight, IF Chapter Tactics, Bikes), Guard/White Scars (Bikes, Khan, Yarrick, Sicaran, Big Blob, Wyvern) and C:SM (Drop Vulkan with Castigator).
Gamerely wrote: I was wanting to try running The Great Company detachment sometime. Anybody have any luck with it as a detachment?
I use it to get a bunch of TWC. It's totally great for getting the toys you want
Feel free to share how you load them out. That's my weakest part I feel. Outfitting everybody.
I ran:
Sisters CAD Celestine
Priest
5 SOB with Melta/Flamer in Repressor
5 SOB with Melta/Flamer in Repressor
5 Dominions with 4 Melta in Repressor
5 Dominions with 4 Melta in TL-MM Immo
Exorcist
Exorcist
5 Retributors with 4 HF, Combi-Flamer (drop pod from SW)
CotGW
Wolf Lord on TWM with Krakenbone and Storm Shield
Iron Priest on TWM
Iron Priest on TWM
4 TWC (SS/WC, SS/CCW, PF/BP, BP/CCW)
Drop Pod
1850
3 solid wins against C:SM (Cents, TFC, Knight, IF Chapter Tactics, Bikes), Guard/White Scars (Bikes, Khan, Yarrick, Sicaran, Big Blob, Wyvern) and C:SM (Drop Vulkan with Castigator).
The great company is a wolf lord, unit of wolf guard, 4 units of grey hunters with one standard, 3 units of some sort of blood claw unit, 2 units of long fangs and a unit of scouts. Company of the great wolf looks fun though.
I'm wondering about how to use Brethren of the Fell-Handed.
I definitely want to run one of the Axe/Shield dreads in a pod.
My instinct is to pod Bjorn, too, probably giving him the Hellfrost Cannon.
The real question is what to do with the 3rd Dread. I could equip Great Wolf Claw and standard Multimelta in a pod and go Dreadnought alpha strike. The melta and hellfrost would have a good chance to pop something first turn, and then there'd be 3 angry dreadnoughts rampaging through my opponents back line. The only problem is I'd need at least 2 more pods to get all the dreads first turn... or choose 1 of them to stay behind initially (and none of that configuration jumps out as the obvious second wave)
Or, I could go Rifleman or Plasma/Missile and leave him backfield... although he'd be missing out on all the formation benefits.
The best option might be to also leave Bjorn back with the 3rd Dread to share the invulnerable save and they could anchor my back/mid field, while other units pushed forward in the other 2 drop pods. A unit of Void Claws might help give the first wave some punch in this case
After talking it through with my good chum, 1500 may be too small of a number to bring a formidable force. I usually shy away from bringing units of 5 if I can. I feel like 5 is just too small to achieve anything of value.
Gamerely wrote: I was wanting to try running The Great Company detachment sometime. Anybody have any luck with it as a detachment?
I use it to get a bunch of TWC. It's totally great for getting the toys you want
Feel free to share how you load them out. That's my weakest part I feel. Outfitting everybody.
I ran:
Sisters CAD Celestine
Priest
5 SOB with Melta/Flamer in Repressor
5 SOB with Melta/Flamer in Repressor
5 Dominions with 4 Melta in Repressor
5 Dominions with 4 Melta in TL-MM Immo
Exorcist
Exorcist
5 Retributors with 4 HF, Combi-Flamer (drop pod from SW)
CotGW
Wolf Lord on TWM with Krakenbone and Storm Shield
Iron Priest on TWM
Iron Priest on TWM
4 TWC (SS/WC, SS/CCW, PF/BP, BP/CCW)
Drop Pod
1850
3 solid wins against C:SM (Cents, TFC, Knight, IF Chapter Tactics, Bikes), Guard/White Scars (Bikes, Khan, Yarrick, Sicaran, Big Blob, Wyvern) and C:SM (Drop Vulkan with Castigator).
Awesome list. Despite how much Sisters and the Wolves may hate each other in the fluff, they make beautiful ally babies on the TT.
karlosovicMade, the formation really needs to have all the dreadnoughts unusually close together, as cool as it sounds, I just cant see a decent way of running it.
gwarsh41 wrote: karlosovicMade, the formation really needs to have all the dreadnoughts unusually close together, as cool as it sounds, I just cant see a decent way of running it.
The two ways I have seen is:
Bjorn with Assault-Cannon or Frost-Cannon.
2x With Axes
All in Pods
or
Bjorn with Plasma-Cannon or Las-Cannon
x2 Rifleman Dreads.
Gamerely wrote: After talking it through with my good chum, 1500 may be too small of a number to bring a formidable force. I usually shy away from bringing units of 5 if I can. I feel like 5 is just too small to achieve anything of value.
I used to think this as well, but they actually have done very well for me - especially if you're grouping 2-3 units in the same general area. It requires 3x as much shooting to wipe out the three units, and they can gang up on targets if necessary without worrying too much about overkill. 5-man units tend to be the most efficient from my experience (although 10-man are funner ).
gwarsh41 wrote: karlosovicMade, the formation really needs to have all the dreadnoughts unusually close together, as cool as it sounds, I just cant see a decent way of running it.
Well there's 3 beneficial rules and only one of them requires the other dreads to be near Bjorn; that's the 5++, and splitting the axe/shield dread off is not so bad because his save is better (if you're careful of the facing).
All three get +1 Deny the Witch and re-roll melee hits, no matter of coherency.
So as I see it, the axe dread gets re-rolls to hit, and the rifleman shares the 5++ with Bjorn as they fire from range
Also, they don't take up any FOC - which can be good, but can be bad if you need to fill compulsory elites slots in a Champions list
buddha wrote: What are everyone's thoughts on wolf scout builds? In a vacuum, what do players find to the best kit?
Well I am bouncing between a number of them.
Plasma Scouts: Taking both Plasma Pistols and the Plasma-Gun. Outflank and put those Plasma Shots into the side or rear of a Tank. Possibly Adding a WGPL with a Combi-Plasma.
Melta Scouts: Similar to the Plasma Scouts, but taking the Melta-Gun and the WGPL with a Combi-Melta, maybe the two Plasma Pistol. Those without "Special Weapons" going with Bolt Pistol just to keep the same Range Profile.
Flamer Scouts: This one I go with Bolt Pistols and a Flamer, as for "Special Weapons" I would go with Power Weapons as you are going planning on Assaulting. The WGPL is probably an Option as not Taking him gives you Challenge Immunity.
Bolter Scouts: This is what I have been using mostly. Just taking a Plasma-Gun and keeping the Bolt Guns. Find a good Place to get into cover or Outflanking, both work well. I usually take 10 with an attach a WGPL with a Combi-Plasma/Wolf Claw. With the Wolves Unleashed Detachment I can almost choose when they come on. It is not that expensive and the turn you come on they can put out a decent amount of shots.
Sniper Scouts: I m not sure about this being the best use as once you go past 5 models they stop being cheap. I give them Camo Cloaks, Sniper Rifles and usually a Heavy Bolter. Place them in cover near a Divination Priest or Wolf Priest and you can get off some really accurate fire though with Re-Rolls and their BS4.
I wouldn't mind trying out some sniper scouts, maybe infiltrate them near an objective to babysit so my other units can take on the enemy with the scouts providing fire support.
my issue with sniper scouts is, against anything MEQ they are almost useless. Ive had them snuggled into ruins near an objective and poured phase after phase of shots into advancing marines only to be shot to death at almost point blank range. could have been my dice that day but, scouts against MEQs with snipers is always a bad time
Yes MEQs and TEQs can be an issue, though a Wolf Priest can help with that giving you some re-rolls on damage hoping for the Quasi-Rending.
Vs MCs though they can do a good job by forcing saves with the 4+ wound everything.
Anpu42 wrote: Yes MEQs and TEQs can be an issue, though a Wolf Priest can help with that giving you some re-rolls on damage hoping for the Quasi-Rending.
Vs MCs though they can do a good job by forcing saves with the 4+ wound everything.
I don't get to play them too often unfortunately but ill try em out see how it works.
Something ive taken to lately is dropping a Wolf priest with a helm and like 5 WG with combi weapons to ignore cover and shoot down the big nasty bits here and there.
Anpu42 wrote: Yes MEQs and TEQs can be an issue, though a Wolf Priest can help with that giving you some re-rolls on damage hoping for the Quasi-Rending.
Vs MCs though they can do a good job by forcing saves with the 4+ wound everything.
I don't get to play them too often unfortunately but ill try em out see how it works.
Something ive taken to lately is dropping a Wolf priest with a helm and like 5 WG with combi weapons to ignore cover and shoot down the big nasty bits here and there.
If you re going for a Tempest-Priest with the Helm that could help, but I think a Wolf Priest might be better giving the Pack Re-Rolls from Preferred Enemy and an Invulnerable Save, His S6 Attack can be helpful to.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: The armies I mostly come up against in my meta are Raven Guard Space Marines, IG, Chaos Daemons/Marines, Eldar, Tau and Orks.
Is it worth taking Sniper scouts against any of those?
Snipers start to pay off at T5 plus. Lots of that in Chaos Demons/Marines.
The MCs of Eldar and Tau will be good targets too.
I've played against the Bjorn + 2 ven dreads formation yesterday as a footslogging ork. The dreads were footslogging too. He launched them on the flank but as i had no intention to rush at 3 dreads with heavy flamers supported by 2 tac squads with my boyz, dreads didn't work that great. Yep, 5++ helped a bit vs my big gunz and rokkits but they were just too slow to make a difference. Sure, they reached the flank by turn 4 as he was going forward + shooting but it was too late to make a difference.
Mobility issues. Durability is somewhat fine with this 5++ but you either got to move + run and forego shooting, which is fairly decent, or move + shoot and arrive late.
Being able to look out sir a sniper hit makes me sad. I need to roll a lot of 6's to pick off important things that are nestled safely and he can just look out sir them.
Gamerely wrote: Being able to look out sir a sniper hit makes me sad. I need to roll a lot of 6's to pick off important things that are nestled safely and he can just look out sir them.
That is why I usually go for the non-character Special Weapons First. I usually have a character available to take out the Sargent in a challenge later.
Gamerely wrote: Being able to look out sir a sniper hit makes me sad. I need to roll a lot of 6's to pick off important things that are nestled safely and he can just look out sir them.
That is why I usually go for the non-character Special Weapons First. I usually have a character available to take out the Sargent in a challenge later.
Not a bad idea. Especially against my friend's Orkz. He brings 30 boyz at a time with 3 rokkit guys.
Don't know if it's been mentioned, but Brethren of the Fell-Handed is awesome. I've been using it a lot and they kick some serious ass. Against a close combat oriented army like blood Angels, chaos, orks, Tyranids they will come to you! In any case, the table only so big. By turn 3 you should be in combat regardless of the opponent. Set them up as close to the enemy as possible and make a bee line for the enemies ranks. Then watch your opponent cry as his army disappears! Don't be afraid to split them up on the turn you charge. The 5++ is nice, but most opponents will struggle to damage them anyway. Locking up more units at once is more important. Bjorn is the ultimate. With so many attacks, re-rolls to hit and wound ws6 str10 ap2, the power fists are dead before it's their turn to hit back (even if it's a fresh unit and the power fist is right at the back, they need a 6 to pen and he is venerable and has a 5++, you do the math).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Melta-bombs could be trouble though....
I know a lot of players aren't super keen on long fangs right now, but I like some of the options they have that other devastator and havoc units don't get. Getting an extra heavy weapon in the squad and having split fire are awesome (as is ATSKNF compared to my havocs).
I'm debating between two ways of protecting a pair of squads right now. I was planning on using a bunker and giving it void shields and ammo stores, but now I'm starting to like just giving terminator armor and a stormshield to the leader for a mere 15 points per unit (free power weapon swap out). When you guys run long fangs, what usually does them in and would this keep them fairly safe?
lessthanjeff wrote: I know a lot of players aren't super keen on long fangs right now, but I like some of the options they have that other devastator and havoc units don't get. Getting an extra heavy weapon in the squad and having split fire are awesome (as is ATSKNF compared to my havocs).
I'm debating between two ways of protecting a pair of squads right now. I was planning on using a bunker and giving it void shields and ammo stores, but now I'm starting to like just giving terminator armor and a stormshield to the leader for a mere 15 points per unit (free power weapon swap out). When you guys run long fangs, what usually does them in and would this keep them fairly safe?
Well for the longest time I ran two Packs based on what I found in the bits box.
1st: Heavy Bolter x1, Las-Cannon x2, Missile Launcher.
2nd: Missile Launcher x5
The First one did so well in 5th-7th that it become my go to unit with a Divination Priest.
When the 7th dropped I want to ML x4, LC x1 and...well lets just say I just have had no luck with them, the best I have with them was glance a Taurox once. So its back to the HB x1, LC x2, ML x2.
I am thinking of a Fortification of some sort with the Ammo dump.
Also if I am expecting to face a Assault Based Army I give the Ancient a Flamer
I still think 3-5 LFs with 3-5 plasma cannons in a bunker with ammo dump is the most cost-effective way to go. 1/36 chance at overheating is minimal and you're laying down some serious blast shooting. And with so many blasts, even hordes have reason to fear.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: What's the opinion on Champions of Fenris? Worth the money or should I wait for it to possibly get cheaper?
That is a very subjective thing, but I think it is worth it as it lets me play my Loganwing as a Battleforged List. I love the Void Claws for my Drop Pod List.
My favorite though is Arjac's Synchronized Whack-A-Mole Drill Team, it is just Brutal.
Champions of Fenris is my favorite way to go. The increase in WS and having the elites as compulsory is amazing, also a big proponent of the thunderstrike formation.
I do appreciate the advice on long fang loadouts, but I was actually wondering more about people's experience with putting them in bunkers compared to having a terminator leader with a storm shield. I'm curious as to what units usually kill or pressure your long fangs and which would be better and more cost effective for protecting them.
I discovered this great new formation through a friend of mine for space wolves.
You take 3 squads of blood claws and then you SMASH THEM UPON THE FLOOR SO THE PUPS OF THE IMPERIUM NEVER GROW STRONG ENOUGH TO FIGHT FOR THE FALSE CORPSE GOD YOU SCUM CALL EMPEROR
changerofways wrote: I discovered this great new formation through a friend of mine for space wolves.
You take 3 squads of blood claws and then you SMASH THEM UPON THE FLOOR SO THE PUPS OF THE IMPERIUM NEVER GROW STRONG ENOUGH TO FIGHT FOR THE FALSE CORPSE GOD YOU SCUM CALL EMPEROR
pretre wrote: I haven't had a lot of success with them recently, both in a bastion and out.
I've overinvested in Long Fangs as I'm in a campaign against Tyranids right now and need the FMC control.
The Imperial Bunker with a Lone Wolf on the quad gun is great. He also makes excellent defense for the squad, since the roof counts simply as difficult terrain he can hop off and charge things as needed.
I find the building being AV14 and being pretty far back is often enough. The unit won't get hurt really at all unless you get out late in the game or the enemy is dedicated to destroying it. You will need some bubble wrap if the enemy is deep striking melta but otherwise it tends to stand on its own and it makes a hell of a firebase.
Looks like the allied detachment comes out to about 500pt. Not really sure what I would drop from my list. I wont know until I try out those unit though! I haven't taken a TWC lord in a while, I was just using WGBL so I could have more toys.
pretre wrote: You don't need anyone on the roof nowadays. The squad inside can fire the quad.
Oh I know. But you can now only have a single unit in the building, but the roof is just difficult terrain. So it's the best way for me to give the other Fangs cover comparable to the Aegis, but also have someone with Monster Hunter on the quadgun (against guaranteed Nids as I am in the campaign, the re-roll to wound on FMCs is helpful). I also have a Rune Priest up there to hand out buffs, since an RP from inside the building can't do that. This helps because if he gets the Ignore Cover power I always have someone nearby worth casting it on.
I'm not saying anyone should use the same loadout, but having the Lone Wolf man the gun adds a lot. His re-roll to Wound and his ability to just hop off the roof and counter assault anything that draws nigh is very helpful. I'd do it even if I were only using one squad of Long Fangs. If anybody decides to fire at the Lone Wolf his gun is Toughness 7, meaning majority toughness comes into play...
Hm, I never played it that quad guns became part of the unit when they were being used. Otherwise, I think there's a rule for weapon batteries that you always use their toughness for shooting attacks anyway.
Runic armor for both, its cheap and awesome. Wolf priest is great pretty much naked. Rune priest ML2 with biomancy and helm of durfast has some nice potential. Best case you can buff yourself or the unit. Worst case you have some nice ignore cover AP2 shooting.
So I played against my good buddy Gwarsh's Daemons yesterday and I'd like to get some tips on taking down a Great Unclean One reliably, that won't take many wounds in return... I figured out that scouts are not reliable in doing so.
Got some nice money for xmas so I was planning on getting two more boxes of TWC, just looking for advice on how to outfit them.
As of right now I have:
1 x Power Fist/Bolt Pistol
2 x Storm Shield/CCW
For the other six I'm getting, I was thinking:
1 w/ Power Axe/SS, to proxy as Harald from time to time
2 w/ Wolf Claw/SS, because they're awesome and wreck some serious face, especially if they get challenged
1 w/ Power Maul/Bolt Pistol, I really like Power mauls after reading Anpu42's breakdown of TWC and I thought it would be a good/cheap alternative to a Hammer or Fist to smash light armour or something
1 w/ Power Sword/SS, to proxy as a Wolf Lord because the Sword can be used to represent Relics and because Power/Frost swords are pretty awesome as well
1 w/ Thunder Hammer, anti-armour/MC and I am hoping to get my hands on some bits and alternate it as an Iron Priest on Thunderwolf on occasion
I figured that these would be a good mix that I can alternate in and out as needed and cover a lot of my bases as needed. Any advice and tips are definitely welcome. Hopefully in the future I can get more but this is it for now.
Gamerely wrote: So I played against my good buddy Gwarsh's Daemons yesterday and I'd like to get some tips on taking down a Great Unclean One reliably, that won't take many wounds in return... I figured out that scouts are not reliable in doing so.
You could probably get by with mass plasma/melta on a non-amped GUO, but if it's got iron arm then I think TWC are the only ones who can do it reliably. The rending attacks will allow you to get past its high toughness, and you can also throw in some power fists for strength 10 as well. Put some stormshields on them to keep them alive.
I can't actually speak as to how well this'll work, but off the top of my head this seems like the best option.
EDIT- You could also try to tie it up with some shield-naughts. Even with warp speed and iron arm on, the GUO is only taking ~1 HP off a shield-dreadnought per turn. With a 6'' move, it's likely that they won't be meeting each other in assault until around turn 3, meaning your 145 point dreadnought can easily tie up the 200+ point GUO for the entire game.
Gamerely wrote: So I played against my good buddy Gwarsh's Daemons yesterday and I'd like to get some tips on taking down a Great Unclean One reliably, that won't take many wounds in return... I figured out that scouts are not reliable in doing so.
You could probably get by with mass plasma/melta on a non-amped GUO, but if it's got iron arm then I think TWC are the only ones who can do it reliably. The rending attacks will allow you to get past its high toughness, and you can also throw in some power fists for strength 10 as well. Put some stormshields on them to keep them alive.
I can't actually speak as to how well this'll work, but off the top of my head this seems like the best option.
EDIT- You could also try to tie it up with some shield-naughts. Even with warp speed and iron arm on, the GUO is only taking ~1 HP off a shield-dreadnought per turn. With a 6'' move, it's likely that they won't be meeting each other in assault until around turn 3, meaning your 145 point dreadnought can easily tie up the 200+ point GUO for the entire game.
I felt my twc could have brought it down, but at the point they fought it they were already at half strength from killing his daemon prince.
Got some nice money for xmas so I was planning on getting two more boxes of TWC, just looking for advice on how to outfit them.
As of right now I have:
1 x Power Fist/Bolt Pistol
2 x Storm Shield/CCW
For the other six I'm getting, I was thinking:
1 w/ Power Axe/SS, to proxy as Harald from time to time
2 w/ Wolf Claw/SS, because they're awesome and wreck some serious face, especially if they get challenged
1 w/ Power Maul/Bolt Pistol, I really like Power mauls after reading Anpu42's breakdown of TWC and I thought it would be a good/cheap alternative to a Hammer or Fist to smash light armour or something
1 w/ Power Sword/SS, to proxy as a Wolf Lord because the Sword can be used to represent Relics and because Power/Frost swords are pretty awesome as well
1 w/ Thunder Hammer, anti-armour/MC and I am hoping to get my hands on some bits and alternate it as an Iron Priest on Thunderwolf on occasion
I figured that these would be a good mix that I can alternate in and out as needed and cover a lot of my bases as needed. Any advice and tips are definitely welcome. Hopefully in the future I can get more but this is it for now.
Gamerely wrote: So I played against my good buddy Gwarsh's Daemons yesterday and I'd like to get some tips on taking down a Great Unclean One reliably, that won't take many wounds in return... I figured out that scouts are not reliable in doing so.
NOTHING WILL SAVE YOU FROM THE LINGERING POWER OF NURGLE!!!!!
On a side note, I am planning on playing around with some SM allies. I have a Thunderfire, a spare bike, and some scouts lying around. So I thought about bringing the smashfether, 5 scout and a thunderfire as allies. SW side will be some TWC, dreadnoughts, flyer and probably some GH for alpha strike goodness.
@Thorgrim Bloodcrow
Wolf claws shine above and beyond most other options for TWC. They are worth the extra points over standard power weapons, and are better in every way aside from armor, than power mauls. I was really excited about making a TWC power maul beatdown squad. Everyone with power maul, lord or WGBL with wulfen stone for some S8 charges. After doing some math though, on all fleshy targets, the wolf claws still come out ahead.
I run my TWC with 2 claws, 2 shields and a fist in a unit of 4. Leader has a claw and shield, then its a claw, a shield, and a fist dude.
Got my first game in with Space Wolves in over a decade and it was a pretty solid tabling against Tyranid. My big thunderwolf cavalry unit proved to be a champ despite a hive tyrant and 3 dakkafexxes unloading into them. I had a single Long Fangs missile launcher unit in a bunker with a quad gun in a distant corner too and I loved using split fire for the quad gun. They took down a couple monstrous creatures and decimated a flood of gaunts.
Still liking the long fangs as back field objective holders. Does anyone run a couple units of lascannons/plasma cannons but put a single flak missile launcher in each unit to split fire on aircrafts with? My next game with them I'm going to test a term leader out front with a storm shield to see how survivable they are and to see how having the split firing missiles works too.
Yeah I don't expect the damage to be anything noticeable, but I am hoping a couple skyfire shots could force one or two flyers to jink or act as a deterrent. I hate the cost of the flak upgrade as well and would never put it on any other heavy weapon team, but I do like thinking of ways to take advantage of our split fire.
oz of the north wrote: Regarding fliers, I would say the best method would just be attach them to a quad gun.
That is how I do it.
I am going back to my 1x HB, 2x LC, 2x ML. With the change to split fire I can have the Ancient or attached Priest fire the Quad Gun.
I've been tossing around the idea of a Wolf Guard jump pack unit.
I know most people are going to say it's hopelessly uncompetitive, and it's horrifically expensive, and I probably wouldn't ever try to use it in a tournament..... BUT!
total = 385
possibly lead by either a Rune Priest or Wolf Priest with jump pack
tactics would be to put 1-2 basic models out front so that Storm Shield models weren't falling to simple volume of fire, but otherwise using them to shield the bulk of the unit from AP2.
Weapon load-out is intended to be versatile, to take all comers - mix of AP2/AP3, melta, protection, and chaff
This unit could be used in conjunction with both aggressive armies and gunline formations - providing a strong back field counter-assault element to either.
They would initially take shelter in LOS blocking terrain in my own deployment zone, waiting to counter attack and assault anything that threatened my back line
With TWC being what they are, I compare just about every fancy assault idea to TWC. In this case you could get 6 TWC with 145pt left over for special weapons, which should net you more wounds and more special weapon attacks, as well as more durability. You lose on ignoring terrain and deepstrike though, but you gain fleet and HoW.
My favorite use of wolf guard is squads with some combi weapons and a few special CC weapons in a pod.
gwarsh41 wrote: With TWC being what they are, I compare just about every fancy assault idea to TWC. In this case you could get 6 TWC with 145pt left over for special weapons, which should net you more wounds and more special weapon attacks, as well as more durability. You lose on ignoring terrain and deepstrike though, but you gain fleet and HoW.
My favorite use of wolf guard is squads with some combi weapons and a few special CC weapons in a pod.
I think if you stack most units against t-wolves they'll lose out in terms of cc stuff. Jet packs would be a cool way to spice things up a bit. Them AND a unit of T-wolves? Could be a pretty good threat to both flanks.
gwarsh41 wrote: With TWC being what they are, I compare just about every fancy assault idea to TWC. In this case you could get 6 TWC with 145pt left over for special weapons, which should net you more wounds and more special weapon attacks, as well as more durability. You lose on ignoring terrain and deepstrike though, but you gain fleet and HoW.
My favorite use of wolf guard is squads with some combi weapons and a few special CC weapons in a pod.
I think if you stack most units against t-wolves they'll lose out in terms of cc stuff. Jet packs would be a cool way to spice things up a bit. Them AND a unit of T-wolves? Could be a pretty good threat to both flanks.
Yeah that's kinda what I was thinking - I hate armies that just spam the best 2-3 units ad-nauseam.
I do have a unit of 6 Thunder Wolves plus Wolf Lord
I also have every other option in Fast Attack covered, and I like to switch things up a bit sometimes for interest's sake (although technically this unit counts towards Elites...)
Played my first couple games with Champions of Fenris. First game, my two thunderwolf units wiped out a full necron court with a couple mindshackle scarabs in the unit. Second game, one unit lost to a dreadknight and imperial knight while simultaneously my second unit lost to a different pair of dreadknights. I did kill the imperial knight from one combat and one of the dreadknights in the second combat. I think the fights actually would have gone better if I'd been regular Space Wolves and not had to accept the challenges with my wolf lords in each unit. I also downgraded the thunder hammers to power fists and ended up regretting that. Anyone else have much experience facing triple dreadknights or imperial knights and have tactics to offer?
Why would you accept the challenge with your Wolf Lord when you have a TWC pack leader?
That said, ouch, facing a knight and and a dreadknight sounds brutal. I think adding an Iron priest on a TWC with a full complement of Cyberwolves could help here. The Cyberwolves are characters so can also take challenges if needed.
I was looking through a friends dex the other day and was trying to see if I could come up with a good drop pod list useing wolfs. This is a purely theoretical list so I have no idea if it would work at all or if I am wasting points on things I shouldn't.
Anyways the list should be droping 6 pods 1st turn, 43-58 bodies, I would be putting 2 Blood Claws units and one Wolf Guard unit in the other 3 FA pods so the 2 empty OS pods can drop in on objectives in later turns.
I did accept the challenges with the pack leaders first, but that didn't even last through one round of combat. The wounds spilled over too unfortunately. I actually did pretty well in the combat with the imperial knight, but then when he exploded he took out a couple more with him.
I'm curious how well they did, personally. Grey Hunters are virtually identical with their upgrade to carry close combat weapons; I'm curious as to how this unit was any different.
Genuinely curious, actually, as I am going to be doing something similar, but that was by design via the Champions of Fenris supplement.
Fenris Frost wrote: I'm curious how well they did, personally. Grey Hunters are virtually identical with their upgrade to carry close combat weapons; I'm curious as to how this unit was any different.
Genuinely curious, actually, as I am going to be doing something similar, but that was by design via the Champions of Fenris supplement.
Well this is what I based it on, mostly replacing the Razorbacks with Drop Pods and adding one more pack.
Spoiler:
Company of the Great Wolf Detachment (1000 pts) Wolf Lord in Power Armor, 140 pts (Bolt Pistol; Krakenbone Sword; Warlord)
Rune Priest in Power Armor, 105 pts (Bolt Pistol; Runic Sword; Melta Bombs; Fellclaw's Teeth; Psyker {Mastery Level 2})
Wolf Guard #1, 175 pts
>Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Bolt Pistol, Combi-Plasma)
>4 Wolf Guard (Bolt Pistol; Chainsword or Bolt Gun)
>Razorback (Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter; Dozer Blade; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Extra Armor)
Wolf Guard #2, 195 pts
>Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Plasma)
>4 Wolf Guard (Bolt Pistol; Chainsword or Bolt Gun)
>Razorback (Twin-Linked Assault Cannon; Dozer Blade; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Extra Armour)
Wolf Guard #3, 190 pts
>Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Plasma)
>4 Wolf Guard (Bolt Pistol; Chainsword or Bolt Gun)
>Razorback (Twin-Linked Las-Cannon; Dozer Blade; Extra Armor)
Wolf Guard #4, 195 pts
>Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Bolt Pistol; Combi-Plasma)
>4 Wolf Guard (Bolt Pistol; Chainsword or Bolt Gun)
>Razorback (Las-Cannon and TL Plasma Gun; Dozer Blade; Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter; Extra Armor)
And how it went
Anpu42 wrote: Well the game happen last night with mixed results. I ended up using variant that add one more Wolf Guard Pack and Traded out the 4 Razorbacks for 5 Drop Pods. I did go with Bolt Gun/Bolt Pistol Combo.
Well I would have done much better, but I could not inflict Penetrating Shots, I inflicted more Hull Points from Massed Bolter Fire than with my Plasma Shots. For the first two turns I could not Make a Save, which was countered with the Dark Eldar bad rolling, during the whole game hit twice with his Dark Lances.
Now that we got done with the Nights Sucky Dice Rolling.
It was a Maelstrom Mission. The Power Armored Wolf Guard Performed Well with every thing, Shooting, Overwatch, Being Assaulted, and Assaulting. Heaving 3 Attacks During the Assault Phase made a real difference with using a Small Pack. Once turn 3 Happened and my Dice decided I was aloud to make my saves they were very durable. The only time I had a problem was when his dedicated Assault Unit showed up and hit I7 AP3 Instant Death Warlord started to issue Challenges.
Over All it think it is going to work, next time I think I will go with Larger Packs, probably in Drop Pod or at least one in a Stormwolf.
I ran a naked wolf guard unit in my stormwolf and attached an iron priest to the unit. They disembarked and wiped out a unit of purifiers but then got wrecked by a dreadknight the next turn (the first game they actually died in a fiery explosion from my stormwolf being shot down). I was happy with them because they had a good number of attacks hitting on 3's for wiping out basic infantry while the single iron priest gave a threat to vehicles and monstrous creatures.
If one was to give a wolf guard found in a grey hunters squad a storm shield, would one be crazy? If you give him a combi and melta bombs, the fancy 40 something point model could be taken out by a random lasgun sure, but with placement it could be nice against some ap2 and such. It could also be a cool model to make with that whole nordic shield brother thing going on. You could always upgrade the wolf guard with terminator armor but if you are using a drop pod that upgrade takes away a grey hunter, a special weapon, and comes out to being the same points. What do you all think? I haven't had very much experience playing to be honest.
giggles333 wrote: If one was to give a wolf guard found in a grey hunters squad a storm shield, would one be crazy? If you give him a combi and melta bombs, the fancy 40 something point model could be taken out by a random lasgun sure, but with placement it could be nice against some ap2 and such. It could also be a cool model to make with that whole nordic shield brother thing going on. You could always upgrade the wolf guard with terminator armor but if you are using a drop pod that upgrade takes away a grey hunter, a special weapon, and comes out to being the same points. What do you all think? I haven't had very much experience playing to be honest.
If you are planing getting into Melee it is a good choice, especial;y if you are taking on things with an I5+.
I am not a real fan of the Terminator Armor, mostly becouse it makes your enimes imune to Sweeping Advances. It is not such a big deal with Grey Hunters as much as Blood Claws. Terminator Armor might be good for Podding MSUs though.
It sounds pointless to me at first glance, but when you do the maths, they're probably more economical than Sternguard or Vanguard.
They don't do either job as well, but they do both jobs at once for a reasonable price.
The only question left is... is cheap flexibility better than slightly more expensive specialisation?
Well they're better than Vanguard Vets - hands down.
Sternguard vets get role appropriate chapter tactics, and special issue ammo.... I'd probably rather pay the extra for proper Sternguard, except that they take up elite slots, while Wolf Guard squads in a CoF detachment are pretty abundant
karlosovic wrote: It sounds pointless to me at first glance, but when you do the maths, they're probably more economical than Sternguard or Vanguard.
They don't do either job as well, but they do both jobs at once for a reasonable price.
The only question left is... is cheap flexibility better than slightly more expensive specialisation?
Well they're better than Vanguard Vets - hands down.
Sternguard vets get role appropriate chapter tactics, and special issue ammo.... I'd probably rather pay the extra for proper Sternguard, except that they take up elite slots, while Wolf Guard squads in a CoF detachment are pretty abundant
Well that is part of why it is an Experiment for me.
I normally run small "Elite, Very Specialized" Armies. I an normal 2k game I normally have about half the Model Count.
It's probably going to be situational.
E.g. against Tyranids, the lack of special ammo will hurt you more than i would aginst, say, traitor guard
Probably, my plan is to try it vs Guard, Orks and Marines at least once if not 2-3 times each.
What I do know is the one time I tried it one 1 Wolf Guard Pack lead by Ragnar once I got into my opponents face it...well wracked face big time.
When I took on the Dark Eldar I did well once I started to make saves.
Like a fool, I forgot about this thread when asking for some Space Wolf help (which went over, rightly, like a wet fart), so hopefully someone here can help?
To keep it brief...
1. Bloodclaws vs. Grey Hunters. What are the merits and uses of each? Is one definitively better in general? Does adding Lukas to one, or Wolf Standard to the other change things up meaningfully?
2. SW Dreadnaught tips? Are characters Dreads like Bjorn, Murderfang, or Blizz-Shield Dreads viable, compared to the normally mediocre classic SM Dread?
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Like a fool, I forgot about this thread when asking for some Space Wolf help (which went over, rightly, like a wet fart), so hopefully someone here can help?
To keep it brief...
1. Bloodclaws vs. Grey Hunters. What are the merits and uses of each? Is one definitively better in general? Does adding Lukas to one, or Wolf Standard to the other change things up meaningfully?
2. SW Dreadnaught tips? Are characters Dreads like Bjorn, Murderfang, or Blizz-Shield Dreads viable, compared to the normally mediocre classic SM Dread?
Replied again on your other thread, might wanna check it out.
I ran a 9 dreadnought list 2 days ago, crushed some tyranids, though there was some luck involved. Murderfang is great, but he will be target #1 when he arrives. No one likes 8-10 S10 mastercrafted shredding attacks on the charge at I4.
I think a few pages back on this thread I did the math on BC vs WG. GH win vs BC just for all around usefulness. In CC you should compare them to WG.
Tried out two units of WG in PA last night, had a handful of combis thrown in each of them. Besides some awful rolling, I was actually pretty happy with their performance.
A couple of problems though, the board we were on was homemade with terrain like rivers and trenches built in so I was forced to put my Predator close to the front of my deployment zone. My opponent had three ironclads stomping around and once I lost my Pred, I didn't have much in the way of really strong anti-tank so my squads fell victim to giant robots they couldn't beat and my awful rolling meant I couldn't escape them.
Besides that, the WG held their ground pretty ably, I was able to capture and hold a couple of objectives for a little while. I definitely will be using them again but I want to ask, would it be worth the points to give every model in the squad a combi weapon? I'm thinking half combi-melta and half combi-plasma in case I run into armour again and if not, I can just rapid fire the plasmas against troops?
Thinking about my upcoming Highlander Store Championship tournament, I am thinking I might go Space Wolves w/Imperial Knight instead of SW/GK. Highlander also means needing to take a greater diversity of models, and not just the best options as well, giving me an excuse to bring one of those Dreads in a Pod, which I had been wanting to do.
Highlander store rules indicate that Bjorn, Murderfang, etc... count as Dreads for the "can only take one of any give unit" rule, so I get to bring one.
So my question. This podded Dread is intended to drop front-line, and absorb a lot of turn one shooting while my army advances up field. As such, its semi-suicidal, I know. To that end... which is MORE survivable...
Bjorn, with his front-armor being one higher, and having a 5++, or a Fenrisian Axe/Blizzard Shield Dread having lower armor, but a 3++?
Not sure how to average out the general survivability across that. Thoughts?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Incidentally, i'd love some feed-back on this prospective list. For those unfamiliar, Highlander expressly forbids more than one of any given unit.
Its a 1500pt tournament. The meta is semi-competitive, with a large and diverse player-base not afraid to take fun lists, or less popular armies. There is, of course, that f'n guy (in this case, that f'n girl, a woman who net-lists the grossest Eldar Wave-Serpent list possible, since troops and dedicated transports are immune to the Highlander rule), who has won the last two events, by picking the only top-tier army which can skirt the rules to transplant into Highlander unscathed.
As such, I want my list pretty TAC friendly. I imagine the troops hanging back-field, holding objectives and manning the Quad Gun, BUT if I want, I could run the troops as MSU, ditch the Aegis Line, and take a Storm-Fang Gunship.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Note: Wolf-Lord actually doesn't have the Helm + Power-Sword, I just needed a points-analog since Battlescribe doesn't have Champions of Fenris Relics for some reason.
He actually has Krackenbone Sword, so AP2, strikes at initiative, master-crafted, etc...
The reason why Battlescribe doesn't allow you to take CoF relics is that you can't take them when using a CAD, you need to use a detachment or formation from CoF to take a relic from that book.
You have a problem with the list when using those relics, if you want to use a Company of the Great Wolf detachment you need to have at least 2 elite units.
I'm not sure what the SS on the WGPL will be good for? Wouldn't it be better to have more bodies in those squads (or plasma/meltaguns)? A 3++ save on a 1 wound T4 model feels kind of pointless to me, or well, at least too expensive for what you get. Anyway, the GH will be behind the ADL in any case, so even less point in having the SS. I would get a plasmagun for that squad instead.
The Stormwolf is an awesome flier, so skipping the ADL and doing MSUGHs/BCs might be a good idea.
Thanks guys. A quick test game gave me some of the same insights. I sometimes like the MSU w/Pack Leader using a Storm-Shield, only to help keep 'em alive while out in the open, but yeah... its a mixed bag, and less needed in a list with ADL.
That said, I think I am going with this list. I have been so set on two-source list-building as a thought process that I didn't realize this crazy tournament is unlimited sources.
So i've whipped up (and will be testing)...
1500pts, Space Wolvers/Sisters of Battle/Imperial Knight.
Bjorn and scout-moved Melta Doms, plus Imperial Knight and Exorcist shooting, and rapidly advancing Thunderwolf Cav should create enough turn 1 stress to occupy my opponent and muck up their plans. I figure Bjorn and Melta Doms will take the brunt of turn 1 fire, and Turn 2 will see a lot of my army in the opponents face.
Still light on bodies, but those bodies sole job is hanging out back field and earning modified Maelstrom points. :-p
Thoughts are of course very appreciated.
+++ New Roster (1500pts) +++
++ Space Wolves: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++
+ HQ +
Bjorn the Fell Handed, Last of the Company of Russ [Helfrost Cannon]
····Drop Pod [Storm Bolter]
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit: The main problem, at least jumping out at me is the poor options as far as who is my Warlord. Bjorn is going to die, and the Canoness is too soft a target.
I guess, I could make it the Knight, but if I could mine out a few points, I could have the Canoness be replaced with St. Celestine. This would give me a HQ I could hide in a Squad, and have break off and jump for a last turn objective... Plus she has to die on two separate turns to count as a Warlord kill. Problem is... where do those points come from?
Depending on the rules for the tournament, you can make any character in the primary detachment the Warlord, not just HQs. Food for thought, I have actually heard good things about that sort of silly set-up.
Who would even be a good choice for such a move? Ditch Canoness, add four more generic Sisters as bullet-catchers, and make that squad's Sister Superior the Warlord?
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Who would even be a good choice for such a move? Ditch Canoness, add four more generic Sisters as bullet-catchers, and make that squad's Sister Superior the Warlord?
Maybe, someone in one of the Sisters threads did exactly that and they said that most people forget that the random Sister Superior is even the Warlord and focus too much on the killy HQs.
pretre wrote: Get Celestine, make her your warlord and add her to the TWC blob. Then when she dies, don't get her back up.
Problem was finding the points for her. I'd LOVE to have her, if only because splitting off a jump-infantry for grabbing some late, late game objective or something would be nice in this relatively low model-count list. Thing is... if I want her, I almost must ditch a TWC for her... and that just seems unacceptable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The other possibility is pulling out Bjorn, and either replacing him with a Fenrisian Axe/Shield Dread, and thus having points for Celestine, or ditching the Dread altogether, and maybe including a tricked out Wolf Lord w/Relics and a Thunderwolf...
It loses me a threat-vector, and puts a turn one cross-hairs firmly on the Melta Doms, but he's sure to earn back his points, and can likewise snag later objectives if need be.
I'm pretty torn on this one as I don't have a lot of time to test variations of this list.
Actually, looking at that list, I think you should rework it entirely.
The 5 man/girl troop squads with nothing and no ride don't do it for me.
It feels like you just want TWC, so just go Champions instead.
Take Bjorn or a TWC Lord, 2 Iron Priests and a Bunch of TWC. I would also not take special weapons on all your twc (take two bear, one SS/PF and one SS/WC).
Then take your Celestine, BSS with at least a rhino, Dominions, Exo, etc so on.
I just don't see those 5 man walking squad worth it, even with mod Maelstrom.
I ran a SW/SOB list at a tournament recently and went undefeated. They are a good combo. You need to find a good balance though.
Finally got a chance to try out that White Tide list. Was 2500 points, used 120 Blood Claws with some supporting vindicators, a TWC squad and a Fire Raptor.
Played against two other dudes playing 1250 points of Eldar and unbound Forgeworld Riptide spam respectively.
They kicked the gak out of me. Was fun as hell though, even though the Blood Claws did literally nothing but die.
pretre wrote: Actually, looking at that list, I think you should rework it entirely.
The 5 man/girl troop squads with nothing and no ride don't do it for me.
It feels like you just want TWC, so just go Champions instead.
Take Bjorn or a TWC Lord, 2 Iron Priests and a Bunch of TWC. I would also not take special weapons on all your twc (take two bear, one SS/PF and one SS/WC).
Then take your Celestine, BSS with at least a rhino, Dominions, Exo, etc so on.
I just don't see those 5 man walking squad worth it, even with mod Maelstrom.
I ran a SW/SOB list at a tournament recently and went undefeated. They are a good combo. You need to find a good balance though.
Definitely appreciate the thoughts. Honestly, the MSU Sisters were just about the required troops. I am taking Sisters mainly for Melta Doms and Exorcist. The local meta for this event is VERY heavy on jinking bike tricks, so I figured Melta Doms have a secondary bonus of their Act of Faith turn helping me muck up some of my opponent's plans.
SOB CAD Celestine
2 BSS in Repressors with M/HF 3 Doms (2 Repressors with 4 Melta, 1 Immo with 4 Melta)
2 Exos
Rets (5) with 4 HF and Combi
SW Champs
TWLord
2 Iron Priests
TWC Squad
Drop Pod (for Rets)
Jinking bikes didn't stand a chance.
Wish I could follow your lead, as more Melta Doms and Exorcits go a long way towards reminding people how valid Sisters can be. Problem is, that this tournament being Highlander, means one is all I get. So no multiples of anything that isn't a basic troop, or dedicated transport (meaning, as I said, someone inevitably abuses Wave Serpent cheese)
Much appreciated pretre. While I wait on that, a quick general question...
What are people's thoughts on TWC with just a Bolt-Pistol/Chainsword, for filling out TWC units?
See, I was, perhaps under the wrong impression that TWC are such elite killers, that you always run even the average unit-member with a pair of Wolf Claws, for the pure killy, AP3, MEQ-shredding, goodness... but I see a ton of people suggesting that running a bigger, less geared group is actually more practical.
I use a mix of bare TWC and shields. Generally 2 out of my 5 are bare.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, so stuck with Highlander, I would probably go with just Wolves and knight. I think you're spreading too thin with SOB, SW and Knight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe something like:
Champions of Fenris:
Harold
Iron Priest on TWC Ven Dread in Drop Pod
GH with Stormwolf and Wolf Banner
5 TWC with WC/SS, 2x SS/CCW, PF/CCW, BP/CCW Knight Paladin
You can always trade for some scoring, but it gets all your smashy in there.
And I assume the plan for denying Jink-saves to those lists who will try to abuse it is simply, get stuck in with TWC, and render them moot? Sounds valid. :-)
For what it is worth, I ran the SW/Sisters/Knight version of the list yesterday, vs my wife's Orks. Just a super-quick mini practice to see how deployment should look, etc...
I wish I had learned more, but amazingly weird luck made the game an outlier as far as usable knowledge goes.
Almost perfect run and charge rolls on the Waaagh, meant my wife charged TWC with a Lucky-Stikk/Klaw Boss and a huge mob of Boyz. The Boss alone ID killed both my Storm Shields, and a Boss Nob with Klaw did the others in...
Likewise, PERFECT rolls of Kustom Mega Kannons, and perfect 6's on pen results, meant my Imperial Knight, even from his shielded front-facing, went down on turn one.
She had no juicy hard-targets for Melta Doms so they did little of note.
Ironically my suicidal distraction Bjorn wiped our a unit of Boyz who he ran off the table, and wiped out a huge unit of Lootas with a Hellfrost blast which scattered right onto a poorly place blob of 'em.
All in all my list just bombed... but I am not sure how much usable info I can draw from the game other than...
1. Dice happens...
2. Warboss with mountains of ablative wounds, and a Lucky Stikk is a bad, bad, bad, man. :-p
Well, one thing you can take from that loss is that TWC by themselves (as in no Wolf Lord or Iron Priests/Rune Priests support) is not going to cut it versus tough assault enemies. If that's what you expect to face you need to play them smarter and make sure that they don't get charged by units they can't handle (well, this time you were unlucky).
The very first game I played with TWC I charged a 3 man strong unit into a Inq. henchman band with crusaders, assassins and a priest. Not making that mistake again...
gruntl wrote: Well, one thing you can take from that loss is that TWC by themselves (as in no Wolf Lord or Iron Priests/Rune Priests support) is not going to cut it versus tough assault enemies. If that's what you expect to face you need to play them smarter and make sure that they don't get charged by units they can't handle (well, this time you were unlucky).
The very first game I played with TWC I charged a 3 man strong unit into a Inq. henchman band with crusaders, assassins and a priest. Not making that mistake again...
^Very much this. You can use them as a blunt object, but against the right opponent, they will just rip you apart. Use them like a surgical knife and most opponent's won't know what to do expecting a Blunt Object. .
gruntl wrote: Well, one thing you can take from that loss is that TWC by themselves (as in no Wolf Lord or Iron Priests/Rune Priests support) is not going to cut it versus tough assault enemies. If that's what you expect to face you need to play them smarter and make sure that they don't get charged by units they can't handle (well, this time you were unlucky).
The very first game I played with TWC I charged a 3 man strong unit into a Inq. henchman band with crusaders, assassins and a priest. Not making that mistake again...
That is all very much the truth. I think my mistake from hearing hype, and my local meta crying about how "OP" TWC were, that they were a magical, one-size-fits-all solution to nearly any problem. In finally playing with them I learned much more about the nuance of using them. In ideal match-ups they will just devastate, and in "bad" match-ups they will do a commendable, but certainly not heroic effort.
I know everyone else already knows this, but simply shuffling my war-gear helped, putting Storm Shields on the generic bolt-pistol guys, versus specialists, makes it much easier to LOS and not feel bad about losing them.
And yes, I have since pulled Bjorn, and replaced him with a Wolf Lords/Krackenbone/Relic Armor/Storm Shield, and have found that while I lost a thoroughly distracting Turn 1/2 unit, the Lord just consistently does more work throughout the game. He's been soooo impressive thus far. Plus, in at least one game, having the ability to break him off, and grab a last turn objective, has helped.
Oh, and incidentally, I am not down on Bjorn at all. I actually really like him, and he's certainly my favorite Dread in 40k, and a fun, viable unit. If this tournament didn't have such specific list-building limitations AND such a low point-value, I would have found a place for him.
A few pages back I noticed some folks increasingly experimenting with running a lot of Wolf Guard in various flavors as, essentially, highly flexible, core troops (of a sort).
Has anyone dug further into this and tried more games?
I find myself frequently amazed by how terrific the +1 WS bonus is for the Company of the Great Wolf Detachment, and am tempted to try building lists with even more Wolf Guard and Thunderwolves to reap the benefit.
How are Wolf-Guard with loads of Combi-Meltas, essentially used as glorified Sternguard Vets, in Drop-Pods? Is it worth taking minimum squads, or on the opposite end of the spectrum, full units, maybe with a hidden power-weapon to further do tank-busting beyond a first turn?
Absolutely nowhere. The wording, for example, under a Wolf Lord dictates that he may take items from the Relics of the Fang list. This list dictates that one may be taken per army, and a model may replace one weapon with one of the following. This wording causes some debate in the Space Marine book (if a character has multiple weapons, can he replace multiple weapons?) but this is avoided in the Wolf book, because Helm of Durfast, Wulfenstone, and The Armor of Russ all have a notation stating that they do not replace a weapon.
If this argument can be used here then it can also be used in the SM argument too. SM codex has options for relics that do not replace weapons.
Are combi's for WG squad leaders worth it anymore? I'm modeling 4 power-armoured squad leaders at the moment and I'm leaning towards giving them axes, sword, wolf claw and fist, respectively. It seems like a better spend than a one shot weapon. I'm thinking I'll leave the combi's for my 10x terminators.
My feeling is that 10pts to use a weapon once isn't worth it if you can get the 2nd one in your squad on a normal guy.
There's also the issue of it reducing the # of attacks your WGPL can make in melee... although that's not an issue for if you're using a Specialist Weapon
An example of where I would use it is 10 Blood Claws in a drop pod. They don't meet the requirements for the 2nd special weapon, so I gave my WGPL a combi-flamer to maximise their shooting on the turn the DP lands (before they can charge)
)
] and 10 Bare Bones Power Armored Wolf Guard (The WGPL had paired Wolf Claws) in the Storm Wolf sitting on the Skyshield
. I think I am cursed with my Stormwolves. Forcing Ragnar to hitch a ride on the 
I actually did run it once a year ago though, it was pretty glorious. 
).
