This is an often problem with Tournaments, around my way as well, this game is designed to have a lot of terrain, that is sooo vital when dealing with high volume shooters like that, and I would bet if you re-did that battle with appreciate terrain Ur wolves would have shown you how good they are. Sense that is Ur Meta, then you will have to plan for it. And Grey hunters in pods don’t just die; they distract and pull fire away from the TWC if that is how you are using the TWC. But yah couple of wolves and an IP is super helpful too. Also IIRC in 7th isn’t it still majority T is used, so those wolves would be like trying to wound a TWC that’s full of win in my world
GH in pods are durable if you support them, but I'd hesitate to take less than the maximum in a pod (8 and TDA or 10 in PA) and you do need at least two squads landing on T1 for maximum usefulness.
Paradigm wrote: GH in pods are durable if you support them, but I'd hesitate to take less than the maximum in a pod (8 and TDA or 10 in PA) and you do need at least two squads landing on T1 for maximum usefulness.
At least two squads? Half the pods come down turn one...
Paradigm wrote: GH in pods are durable if you support them, but I'd hesitate to take less than the maximum in a pod (8 and TDA or 10 in PA) and you do need at least two squads landing on T1 for maximum usefulness.
At least two squads? Half the pods come down turn one...
Use at least three, Putting Axe/Storm Shield Dread or Murderfang in one will also cause your opponent to sweat for a turn or two till he shows up
Paradigm wrote: GH in pods are durable if you support them, but I'd hesitate to take less than the maximum in a pod (8 and TDA or 10 in PA) and you do need at least two squads landing on T1 for maximum usefulness.
At least two squads? Half the pods come down turn one...
I meant you need at least two squads able to land on T1, so you need a minimum of three podded units. Apologies for the confusion.
Paradigm wrote: GH in pods are durable if you support them, but I'd hesitate to take less than the maximum in a pod (8 and TDA or 10 in PA) and you do need at least two squads landing on T1 for maximum usefulness.
At least two squads? Half the pods come down turn one...
I meant you need at least two squads able to land on T1, so you need a minimum of three podded units. Apologies for the confusion.
I'm going to be trying an 1850 point game with a knight Errant thrown in. It means I'll have a dirty TWC unit of 5, with a WGBL and an IP and the knight on the board turn one, with a Melta maxed GH pod turning up too. The pods target will normally be the thing that can do the most damage to the knight. The Knights tend to draw a shed load of firepower and it seems they soak it up well from what I've been reading. Then, with the wolves unleashed detachment my Wolf packed full of blood claws will turn up turn two and unleash a tide of cutting, ripping and tearing.
Basically, what I'm saying is, I'm hoping the knight will draw enough firepower turn one to allow my wolves to get up close and personal. If he can do the same turn to most will be able to assault, if not everything apart from the claws. And they should be charging turn 3 minimum. Hopefully with outflank.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Take amok here and tell me what you guys think...
Paradigm wrote: GH in pods are durable if you support them, but I'd hesitate to take less than the maximum in a pod (8 and TDA or 10 in PA) and you do need at least two squads landing on T1 for maximum usefulness.
Ive had some really good experiences podding in a full GH squad with murderfang. As long as they aren't too far apart, nobody seems to shoot at the GH squad
koooaei wrote: You've just faced an uber-list and probably didn't have enough blos terrain to hide against his shooting. Trust me, TWC are quite durable for their points and many armies will have hard time dealing with them. For example, my orkses. A standard squad of 20 shootaboyz (pk nob, rokkits) will statistically inflict around 1.5 wounds on TWC. Than will promptly die in mellee killing another one or two at best. And this squad of shootaboyz costs ~180 pts. That's the ideal scenario when orks get to shoot and charge.
Yep, wolves are not unkillable but they're really awesome for their points.
I'm actually thinking Rhinos for my tournie list, just to give the TWC guaranteed LOS blockers for cheap (not to mention that I don't have pods anyway... )
Just picked up the Champions of Fenris supplement. Now Im dying to try the Arjack formation with 5 TH/SS TDAWG in a crusader.
605 points, really not terrible for an 1850 game, really going to pack a punch and should be able to take a beating as well.
I'd also consider throwing in an IC with something like those rending Wolf Claws, something to strike at full initiative and take down threats that strike before the Termies.
I'm kind of torn between Blood Claws and Grey Hunters. Sure, Blood Claws are cheaper, but in general they're going to put out less than half the firepower as an equal number of Grey Hunters, since they're stuck with bolt pistols and BS3. I'm just not sure if the 10-40pts saved per unit is really worth the drop in efficiency. I mention this because I'm trying to come up with a 1500pt list for a tournament and want my 5-man units to actually contribute somewhat...
Andilus Greatsword wrote: I'm kind of torn between Blood Claws and Grey Hunters. Sure, Blood Claws are cheaper, but in general they're going to put out less than half the firepower as an equal number of Grey Hunters, since they're stuck with bolt pistols and BS3. I'm just not sure if the 10-40pts saved per unit is really worth the drop in efficiency. I mention this because I'm trying to come up with a 1500pt list for a tournament and want my 5-man units to actually contribute somewhat...
Blood claws are not designed for MSU play style. For this, I'd suggest grey hunters.
koooaei wrote: You've just faced an uber-list and probably didn't have enough blos terrain to hide against his shooting. Trust me, TWC are quite durable for their points and many armies will have hard time dealing with them. For example, my orkses. A standard squad of 20 shootaboyz (pk nob, rokkits) will statistically inflict around 1.5 wounds on TWC. Than will promptly die in mellee killing another one or two at best. And this squad of shootaboyz costs ~180 pts. That's the ideal scenario when orks get to shoot and charge.
Yep, wolves are not unkillable but they're really awesome for their points.
Truth is, against top tier pure Wolves will struggle. Any competitive army needs to be allied nowadays.
From a competitive perspective there are 4 units in the SW Codex (Champions of Fenris supplement actually) that reign supreme:
Thunderwolf Cavalry, the only reliable hard counter to Knights
Wolf Guard BL with Armour of Asvald Stormrack (2+ 4++ IWND for 50 pts), Thunderwolf, Chainfist, 2 Wolves 181pts
Wolf Priest on bike to give the TWCPE and 6+ FNP 130
Servitor 10
Servitor 10
6 TWC, 3 PF, 3 SS Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Culexus
There's room for either a Rune Priest or Librarian ML 2 to go with the second Centurion squad.
WGBL has 1 less wound, attack and ws than a Wolf Lord but gains IWND and a 2+ Save for 5 pts less. And you can take Chainfist for 15 pts!
koooaei wrote: You've just faced an uber-list and probably didn't have enough blos terrain to hide against his shooting. Trust me, TWC are quite durable for their points and many armies will have hard time dealing with them. For example, my orkses. A standard squad of 20 shootaboyz (pk nob, rokkits) will statistically inflict around 1.5 wounds on TWC. Than will promptly die in mellee killing another one or two at best. And this squad of shootaboyz costs ~180 pts. That's the ideal scenario when orks get to shoot and charge.
Yep, wolves are not unkillable but they're really awesome for their points.
Truth is, against top tier pure Wolves will struggle. Any competitive army needs to be allied nowadays.
From a competitive perspective there are 4 units in the SW Codex (Champions of Fenris supplement actually) that reign supreme:
Thunderwolf Cavalry, the only reliable hard counter to Knights
Wolf Guard BL with Armour of Asvald Stormrack (2+ 4++ IWND for 50 pts), Thunderwolf, Chainfist, 2 Wolves 181pts
Wolf Priest on bike to give the TWCPE and 6+ FNP 130
Servitor 10
Servitor 10
6 TWC, 3 PF, 3 SS Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Culexus
There's room for either a Rune Priest or Librarian ML 2 to go with the second Centurion squad.
WGBL has 1 less wound, attack and ws than a Wolf Lord but gains IWND and a 2+ Save for 5 pts less. And you can take Chainfist for 15 pts!
I do believe your WGBL is illegal my friend. I am pretty sure you can't have a terminator riding on a Thunderwolf, but I could be wrong. If I am then I think I may know where an additional 30 points of my list are going lol.
Overall though that does look pretty nasty, might want to free up some points though to put those centurions into drop pods though
I have seen the relic armor being debated on TDA or not. It is obviously TDA, but I don't believe it states that the character must take stuff from the TDA wargear and cant ride a bike or TWC.
Technically in the rules the armor does not say it is a suit of terminator armor(it does in the fluff) so right now its not against the rules(there was a thread about it)
Personally I would rather get the krakenbone sword and a storm shield for the same points(which is what I am running)
It is a suit of terminator armour in the fluff but not in the rules, it just gives 2+ 4++ and Bulky, Relentless, Deep Strike etc. I might be wrong about being able to take a Chainfist with it though.
Drop Pods are there.
Why would you pass up the chance to get Str 10? It's the raison d'etre of putting anything on TWC. Str 6 attacks don't really help against Knights, the chief melee threat. And you need Str 10 to punch other wolves.
Currently RAW the wolves are only 9 unfortunately so that is how I am playing them just to be on the safe side. With that in mind having the claw at initiative is actually quite nice since it will still rend
Leth wrote: Currently RAW the wolves are only 9 unfortunately so that is how I am playing them just to be on the safe side. With that in mind having the claw at initiative is actually quite nice since it will still rend
Leth wrote: Currently RAW the wolves are only 9 unfortunately so that is how I am playing them just to be on the safe side. With that in mind having the claw at initiative is actually quite nice since it will still rend
What about TWC?
Same thing unfortunately. The way it is worded is the same as 5th, only now we don't have the FAQ like we did before. So there is currently lots of wording that supports str 9, and next to no wording in the rules that supports strength 10. The real nail in the coffin for me was that furious charge uses the exact same wording as the thunderwolves and that definitely doesnt apply before doubling.
Makes me sad, but still very powerful so I dont mind.
Leth wrote: Currently RAW the wolves are only 9 unfortunately so that is how I am playing them just to be on the safe side. With that in mind having the claw at initiative is actually quite nice since it will still rend
What about TWC?
Same thing unfortunately. The way it is worded is the same as 5th, only now we don't have the FAQ like we did before. So there is currently lots of wording that supports str 9, and next to no wording in the rules that supports strength 10. The real nail in the coffin for me was that furious charge uses the exact same wording as the thunderwolves and that definitely doesnt apply before doubling.
Makes me sad, but still very powerful so I dont mind.
But they are listed at S5, not S4[5], so by RAW they would be S10.
Leth wrote: Currently RAW the wolves are only 9 unfortunately so that is how I am playing them just to be on the safe side. With that in mind having the claw at initiative is actually quite nice since it will still rend
What about TWC?
Same thing unfortunately. The way it is worded is the same as 5th, only now we don't have the FAQ like we did before. So there is currently lots of wording that supports str 9, and next to no wording in the rules that supports strength 10. The real nail in the coffin for me was that furious charge uses the exact same wording as the thunderwolves and that definitely doesnt apply before doubling.
Makes me sad, but still very powerful so I dont mind.
But they are listed at S5, not S4[5], so by RAW they would be S10.
The problem lies in the fact that the wargear says "these bonuses are already included in the profile" but that is neither here nor there. Play it how your group plans to play it. I am planning on going to tournaments so I need to play it conservative and then ask the TO
Leth wrote: Currently RAW the wolves are only 9 unfortunately so that is how I am playing them just to be on the safe side. With that in mind having the claw at initiative is actually quite nice since it will still rend
What about TWC?
Same thing unfortunately. The way it is worded is the same as 5th, only now we don't have the FAQ like we did before. So there is currently lots of wording that supports str 9, and next to no wording in the rules that supports strength 10. The real nail in the coffin for me was that furious charge uses the exact same wording as the thunderwolves and that definitely doesnt apply before doubling.
Makes me sad, but still very powerful so I dont mind.
But they are listed at S5, not S4[5], so by RAW they would be S10.
The problem lies in the fact that the wargear says "these bonuses are already included in the profile"
Yes the problem is they did not make it Clear. The problem is the Ruleing that makes them "S9" uses the word Modification and No where does it say it is a Modification.
This is why group is going with the old FAQ on it.
Ugh, please don't get into the TWC debate in here. I read some NOVA bat reps and the TWC were played as S10. My LGS and all players within are going with 10, as that is the statline says 5, as does all the old stuff (which I know doesn't matter)
I would also go with krakensword and SS on the lord. Remember that he will be tied up in a challenge most of the time, and at initiative AP2 is going to be awesome. Put the TH or PF on a standard TWC for your S10. If you are really worried about knights, bring an Iron priest, he is S10(9) ap1 thanks to his servo harness (and rending, woo!)
I am actually throwing it on a Wolf guard battle leader. I think on a wolf it is worth saving the 50 points(especially since I am buying the invul anyway) as well as getting preferred enemy(which will benefit the entire unit as well.)
WGBL Kraken, Runic, Storm, T-wolf.
That will mess up almost everything. with 4-5 attacks, preferred enemy at str 6 ap 2. Even better if I can get re-roll hits on the squad.
I think for a WGBL the Armor of Russ + WC+ PF is a better combo, you get +1 attack and force the enemy down to I1 and then you can choose to hit at I5 S6 AP3 Shred and Rending or go at the same time as the enemy with S9 AP2 (also rending but doesn't matter with AP2 already).
Think of it this way, if you run into PA character, or an Ork Warboss with PK then you want to use the claw, for anything tougher you want that PF handy.
The Runic Armor + PF + SS is a good discount version though, if you're tight on points.
More Dakka wrote: I think for a WGBL the Armor of Russ + WC+ PF is a better combo, you get +1 attack and force the enemy down to I1 and then you can choose to hit at I5 S6 AP3 Shred and Rending or go at the same time as the enemy with S9 AP2 (also rending but doesn't matter with AP2 already).
Think of it this way, if you run into PA character, or an Ork Warboss with PK then you want to use the claw, for anything tougher you want that PF handy.
The Runic Armor + PF + SS is a good discount version though, if you're tight on points.
Are you referring more to the Armor of Russ or the PF/WC combo? Former is applicable only under the SW codex, not the Champions of Fenris book (which I believe is what Leth is using). Its initiative reduction value is then only applicable in challenges, if memory serves.
Yeah, just going off the SW codex. I'd mix and match the books personally, the only tax is 2nd HQ choice for the benefit of +1WS units and Obsec troops and transports.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: I still don't see the role he plays. What do you need to attack at I5 that is so pressing? Powerfist is better against everything.
Any character with a 2+ armor save with a lower initiative. There are very few AP 2 weapons that strike at initiative, so I am not worried about them breaking my armor. I would rather kill them first than have them attack at the same time.
Such as anyone with a fist, barge lords, People charging through cover without grenades, chaos lords with fist/claw.
I played in a tournament recently where I REALLY missed having the AP 2, and going last was not going to help, going at initiative with ap 2 would have been HUGE.
Combined with str 6 to wound most targets on 2 it is really all you need. The extra +2 from a fist is not worth going last IMO.
Now if you are not on a T wolf then no I dont think its worth it.
More Dakka wrote: Yeah, just going off the SW codex. I'd mix and match the books personally, the only tax is 2nd HQ choice for the benefit of +1WS units and Obsec troops and transports.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: I still don't see the role he plays. What do you need to attack at I5 that is so pressing? Powerfist is better against everything.
Any character with a 2+ armor save with a lower initiative. There are very few AP 2 weapons that strike at initiative, so I am not worried about them breaking my armor. I would rather kill them first than have them attack at the same time.
Such as anyone with a fist, barge lords, People charging through cover without grenades, chaos lords with fist/claw.
I played in a tournament recently where I REALLY missed having the AP 2, and going last was not going to help, going at initiative with ap 2 would have been HUGE.
Combined with str 6 to wound most targets on 2 it is really all you need. The extra +2 from a fist is not worth going last IMO.
Now if you are not on a T wolf then no I dont think its worth it.
Let's see what credible CC threats there are on the competitive 40k table:
Chapter Masters on Bike, Shield Eternal, Artificer Armour
(They strike at I1, and with a 3++ unlikely to go down in a single round of attacks. Powerfist / Sword has marginally the same result )
Daemon Princes / Greater Daemons
(Powerfist clearly superior as you mostly strike after them)
Tyranid Hive Tyrants
(Powerfist clearly superior as they have higher I)
Imperial Knights
(Sword can only hurt them on Rends, Powerfist superior)
Wraithknights
(Sword only wounds on 6's, Powerfist superior)
Phoenix Lords
(Don't have an invuln save but go before you)
Thunderwolf Cavalry
(The only credible threat, mutually assured destruction is the probable outcome. But only if you have a powerfist)
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: I still don't see the role he plays. What do you need to attack at I5 that is so pressing? Powerfist is better against everything.
Any character with a 2+ armor save with a lower initiative. There are very few AP 2 weapons that strike at initiative, so I am not worried about them breaking my armor. I would rather kill them first than have them attack at the same time.
Such as anyone with a fist, barge lords, People charging through cover without grenades, chaos lords with fist/claw.
I played in a tournament recently where I REALLY missed having the AP 2, and going last was not going to help, going at initiative with ap 2 would have been HUGE.
Combined with str 6 to wound most targets on 2 it is really all you need. The extra +2 from a fist is not worth going last IMO.
Now if you are not on a T wolf then no I dont think its worth it.
Let's see what credible CC threats there are on the competitive 40k table:
Chapter Masters on Bike, Shield Eternal, Artificer Armour
(They strike at I1, and with a 3++ unlikely to go down in a single round of attacks. Powerfist / Sword has marginally the same result )
Daemon Princes / Greater Daemons
(Powerfist clearly superior as you mostly strike after them)
Tyranid Hive Tyrants
(Powerfist clearly superior as they have higher I)
Imperial Knights
(Sword can only hurt them on Rends, Powerfist superior)
Wraithknights
(Sword only wounds on 6's, Powerfist superior)
Phoenix Lords
(Don't have an invuln save but go before you)
Thunderwolf Cavalry
(The only credible threat, mutually assured destruction is the probable outcome. But only if you have a powerfist)
I find myself mostly in agreement of the first over the sword. But what are your thoughts on the black death? Especially when combined with the Wulfen stone. S8 AP2 on the charge. But it's the chance of the extra 3 attacks that attracts me....
I can definitely see its merits against certain units. I suppose it depends on what your wolf lord/WGBL has as a target. Mine is a big fan of punching things like riptides in the face. So going last isn't a massive concern for me. That tide has to be pretty lucky to kill him... Especially with his iron priest sidekick....
I met a unit of five Thunderwolf cavalry with shields and frost swords, and they were brutal on the charge, causing 12 wounds to a Tactical squad, and we even forgot about HoW
They got cheaper in base cost, the shields now only cost 15 instead of 30, and now the entire unit can take power/frost weapons. Imo this unit is finally good to take, which is nice because it's one of the coolest SW units.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: I can definitely see its merits against certain units. I suppose it depends on what your wolf lord/WGBL has as a target. Mine is a big fan of punching things like riptides in the face. So going last isn't a massive concern for me. That tide has to be pretty lucky to kill him... Especially with his iron priest sidekick....
Oddly enough one of the big reasons that I missed it was that it was not the big combat characters that were causing a lot of my problems. It was the random combat wounds from mooks that added up. Also barge lords are a real thing that needs to be dealt with.
centuryslayer wrote: I met a unit of five Thunderwolf cavalry with shields and frost swords, and they were brutal on the charge, causing 12 wounds to a Tactical squad, and we even forgot about HoW
They got cheaper in base cost, the shields now only cost 15 instead of 30, and now the entire unit can take power/frost weapons. Imo this unit is finally good to take, which is nice because it's one of the coolest SW units.
That's a pretty expensive unit but it's also rock solid. I am experimenting with a similar one, but less shields (I want models with shields to tank damage and not be carrying weapons I don't want to lose). They can also be 6 man now, which is great if you aren't going for any defense and just want a mean unit out there -- 6 T-wolves is only about a Land Raider's cost.
My biggest problem is I keep wanting to take Bjorn...but I just still can't justify his point cost. In melee he seems lacking.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: I can definitely see its merits against certain units. I suppose it depends on what your wolf lord/WGBL has as a target. Mine is a big fan of punching things like riptides in the face. So going last isn't a massive concern for me. That tide has to be pretty lucky to kill him... Especially with his iron priest sidekick....
Oddly enough one of the big reasons that I missed it was that it was not the big combat characters that were causing a lot of my problems. It was the random combat wounds from mooks that added up. Also barge lords are a real thing that needs to be dealt with.
Yeah I can see that. I keep trying with a company of the great wolf detachment. 2 x 5 thunderwolfs. 3 Shields. 2 pairs of claws. One powerfist. 2 wolf mounted iron priests. And a lord with the relic sword. And the Re roll to hit relic. Then add a knight paladin and a knight Errant. It's 1850. Don't know if it will/could work....
Khaine's Wrath wrote: I can definitely see its merits against certain units. I suppose it depends on what your wolf lord/WGBL has as a target. Mine is a big fan of punching things like riptides in the face. So going last isn't a massive concern for me. That tide has to be pretty lucky to kill him... Especially with his iron priest sidekick....
Oddly enough one of the big reasons that I missed it was that it was not the big combat characters that were causing a lot of my problems. It was the random combat wounds from mooks that added up. Also barge lords are a real thing that needs to be dealt with.
Yeah I can see that. I keep trying with a company of the great wolf detachment. 2 x 5 thunderwolfs. 3 Shields. 2 pairs of claws. One powerfist. 2 wolf mounted iron priests. And a lord with the relic sword. And the Re roll to hit relic. Then add a knight paladin and a knight Errant. It's 1850. Don't know if it will/could work....
Its good, and it will probably wreck a lot of people. However it definitely lends itself to a hard counter. I would not bother with the pair of claws. The extra 15 points is not worth the extra attack on the thunderwolves. I would also work in 3 cyber wolves for the iron priests.
So each unit would look something like
5x thunder wolves
3x storm shield
1x claw/storm(on the unit leader)
1x fist
Iron Priest on wolf with three cyber wolves
So recently I have been thinking about grimnar a bunch, he just doesn't seem to be worth it anymore.
Logan grimnar is the cost of a land raider and honestly doesn't seem to have the stats or rules to justify it, here is why I believe that to be.
TWC wolf lord, armor of russ, Power fist, Wolf claw. This loadout is 15pt cheaper than grimnar. It moves 12", gives -5 initiative to enemies in challenges, has 1 more attack, has rending, and shred when striking at initiative. Logans sword is +2S, but the TWC/Claw is also +2, so they are both S6 ap3 at initiative, logan is S8ap2, while the TWC lord is S9/10ap2 (pending FAQ) at initiative 1. Both can choose which weapon to use, which was always Logans big thing, he could hit hard, or light pending on who he fought.
The TWC lord can run units down, logan cannot.
The TWC lord is 12" move, logan is 6"
Logan can deep strike, the TWC lord cannot.
Logan has Eternal Warrior, the TWC lord does not.
Logan can ride a pimp boat, the TWC cannot ride the boat.
Logan is a lord of war, the TWC lord is not.
Logan can go in a transport, the TWC lord cannot (Edited: good point Leth)
Am I missing something about logan? He seems to just be lackluster when compared to a cheaper, arguably better HQ. His lack of special rules is very saddening.
Logan can be a real beast when you get him into combat.
He has the choice of acting on I5 or I1 or both.
I have good write up of him in my Space Wolf Synergy Thread
Anpu42 wrote: Logan can be a real beast when you get him into combat.
He has the choice of acting on I5 or I1 or both.
I have good write up of him in my Space Wolf Synergy Thread
It's getting him there though. I have the new logan model. And I love it. But unless it's my 3000 point list I don't have a space for him. If he's not in his chariot I don't know how you would do it. A land raider is 250 points. With logan that's 500 with no other units. And if he deep strikes his whole unit sits there and waits. I love him. But Lords and battle leaders are so much cheaper that in smaller/normal point games I think they will always be first pick.
Anpu42 wrote: Logan can be a real beast when you get him into combat.
He has the choice of acting on I5 or I1 or both.
I have good write up of him in my Space Wolf Synergy Thread
It's getting him there though. I have the new logan model. And I love it. But unless it's my 3000 point list I don't have a space for him. If he's not in his chariot I don't know how you would do it. A land raider is 250 points. With logan that's 500 with no other units. And if he deep strikes his whole unit sits there and waits. I love him. But Lords and battle leaders are so much cheaper that in smaller/normal point games I think they will always be first pick.
Though I have not gotten to try him yet, I am looking at a Stormwolf with 5 other Wolf Guard Terminators.
And the Land Raider (Any) is a Good Choice.
Anpu42 wrote: Logan can be a real beast when you get him into combat.
He has the choice of acting on I5 or I1 or both.
I have good write up of him in my Space Wolf Synergy Thread
The TWC lord can also strike at I5 or I1, he just cannot mix them as far as I know. His stats are better than logans in CC, so he should be just as, if not more beastly (+1 S, T, A)
The point cost is another think, does a lord of war take up an HQ slot? If not then you still need at least 65pt for an HQ. I don't really think of a transport cost, as the TWC lord will need a TWC unit to run with.
I do love the synergy thread!
The main reason I thought of this is I was considering buying the logan model. Though I am trying not to buy models I will never field, and I can't really think of a time I would use him. Beautiful model though! It crossed my mind to try to use the TWC that come with it as regular TWC, sort of like how you get 2 free screamers with the burning chariot kit.
Anpu42 wrote: Logan can be a real beast when you get him into combat.
He has the choice of acting on I5 or I1 or both.
I have good write up of him in my Space Wolf Synergy Thread
The TWC lord can also strike at I5 or I1, he just cannot mix them as far as I know. His stats are better than logans in CC, so he should be just as, if not more beastly (+1 S, T, A)
The point cost is another think, does a lord of war take up an HQ slot? If not then you still need at least 65pt for an HQ. I don't really think of a transport cost, as the TWC lord will need a TWC unit to run with.
I do love the synergy thread!
Again I have not run him in 7th, but I have been running him in a 13 Model/15 Model 1,500/2,000 point list that has not lost [don't ask me how, it just does].
He is one of those who on paper looks ok, but once you get him out there just does amazing things. I would say give a try a few times, you might be surprised.
On the Split attack thing, it looks to be nasty with his ability to take out models near him and them move 3" to crush something else.
Logan Claws looks like it could also be devastating.
Grimnar can't strike ap2 at initiative, I guess a champions of fenris TWC lord could though. Trade the -5initiative in challenges, 1 attack and shred for ap2 at initiative. Not sure what the new point cost would be though.
I would say that moving 12" and being able to run down units is also a pretty big advantage.
I guess the TWC lord having hammer of wrath could be a downside. Apparently if you kill your challenge at I10 with hammer of wrath, you don't get to strike at your normal initiative, as only wounds will spill over, and there is nothing for you to hit.
gwarsh41 wrote: Grimnar can't strike ap2 at initiative, I guess a champions of fenris TWC lord could though. Trade the -5initiative in challenges, 1 attack and shred for ap2 at initiative. Not sure what the new point cost would be though.
I would say that moving 12" and being able to run down units is also a pretty big advantage.
I guess the TWC lord having hammer of wrath could be a downside. Apparently if you kill your challenge at I10 with hammer of wrath, you don't get to strike at your normal initiative, as only wounds will spill over, and there is nothing for you to hit.
Is the pile in really that much worth it?
Have not had the HoW issue.
Also Logan is not something you just tack on. He also does not fit every list. If you want to play Logan, build around him.
gwarsh41 wrote: Grimnar can't strike ap2 at initiative, I guess a champions of fenris TWC lord could though. Trade the -5initiative in challenges, 1 attack and shred for ap2 at initiative. Not sure what the new point cost would be though.
I would say that moving 12" and being able to run down units is also a pretty big advantage.
I guess the TWC lord having hammer of wrath could be a downside. Apparently if you kill your challenge at I10 with hammer of wrath, you don't get to strike at your normal initiative, as only wounds will spill over, and there is nothing for you to hit.
Is the pile in really that much worth it?
That was more about the conversation we were having earlier about thunderwolf characters with kraken sword or power fist.
Anpu42 wrote: Logan can be a real beast when you get him into combat.
He has the choice of acting on I5 or I1 or both.
I have good write up of him in my Space Wolf Synergy Thread
It's getting him there though. I have the new logan model. And I love it. But unless it's my 3000 point list I don't have a space for him. If he's not in his chariot I don't know how you would do it. A land raider is 250 points. With logan that's 500 with no other units. And if he deep strikes his whole unit sits there and waits. I love him. But Lords and battle leaders are so much cheaper that in smaller/normal point games I think they will always be first pick.
Iron Priest: WS4, 6 Attacks at Str 9, (2++ 6++) 105 points
Not sure 40 points is worth losing -1 WS and -1 Str.
Also, why would you arm your TWC frost blades? You take them to do Str 10 attacks, not Str 6...
All depends on how you look at TWC, some people say that they are all S9 right now. Locally everyone plays them S10 like in 6th and 5th. Iron priest gets AP1 and a bonus attack, as well as a thunderhammer, so concussive which is generally meh. TWC are only going to be WS5 in the champions of fenris detachment, so if you are running straight codex it isn't as bad. The main bonus to an Iron priest is +2 armor +6 invul, AP1 for popping vehicles easier, and he can split off later in the game if needed. Say you run up on your enemies lines. You know your 4 TWC can handle that unit of devastators, and there is a vindicator right over within charge range. Iron priest splits off from TWC and totals the vehicle, TWC jack up the devastators.
Honestly? I would only bring one because I have always, always loved the way iron priests sound and look, but they have always been crummy. Now they are decent, just not optimal.
Anpu42 wrote: Logan can be a real beast when you get him into combat.
He has the choice of acting on I5 or I1 or both.
I have good write up of him in my Space Wolf Synergy Thread
It's getting him there though. I have the new logan model. And I love it. But unless it's my 3000 point list I don't have a space for him. If he's not in his chariot I don't know how you would do it. A land raider is 250 points. With logan that's 500 with no other units. And if he deep strikes his whole unit sits there and waits. I love him. But Lords and battle leaders are so much cheaper that in smaller/normal point games I think they will always be first pick.
Drop pod?
Same issue as deep striking. I'll land here and wait to let you unload in my face.
I think iron priests are almost an auto include on thunderwolfs now. And with a great wolf detachment they fill mandatory elites choices. So, win win. Thunderwolf army is now possible.
For the cost of the two Iron Priests you could field another 5 Thunderwolves.
Just take Servitors for your mandatory Elites choice.
IC is nice so I would only ever take them if I wanted hidden Str 10 attached to other units; I already have a Wolf Lord and Wolf Priest to split off if needs be.
AP 1 isn't a huge deal since most vehicles can't survive 5 Str 10 attacks rerolling 1s most of the time.
For the cost of the two Iron Priests you could field another 5 Thunderwolves.
Just take Servitors for your mandatory Elites choice.
IC is nice so I would only ever take them if I wanted hidden Str 10 attached to other units; I already have a Wolf Lord and Wolf Priest to split off if needs be.
AP 1 isn't a huge deal since most vehicles can't survive 5 Str 10 attacks rerolling 1s most of the time.
True, they are not cheep.
However the 4x S10, AP1 Attacks [5 on the Assault] is just the punch deeded a lot of times. Sometimes Thunder Hammers don't cut it vs. Land Raiders.
Well if you already have a wolf priest and wolf lord in the unit, then yeah, you don't need another IC. Think of the Iron priest as the WGBL lite. Pay a little more for blowing up vehicles on a +5 and being able to detach.
You can already easily hide S10 in TWC units, just give the character a stormshield or something and have a normal dude use the TH. If cyberwolves were T5 I would say bringing a cyberwolf or two could be fun as well, nice LoS wound for under 10pt.
The other, and less reliable bonus to the Iron priest, is if you are bringing any dreadnoughts in pods. Good chance your priest could swing by and try to fix an immobilized one. Could just be preference though. I am totally going to use one because I want a badass iron priest to whop people on the heads with a wrench. A T5 +2 model is a tough nut to crack with small arms fire.
I think a TWC lord is better than logan hands down, but if others like Logan better, I wont get my wolf pelts in a bundle.
For the cost of the two Iron Priests you could field another 5 Thunderwolves.
Just take Servitors for your mandatory Elites choice.
IC is nice so I would only ever take them if I wanted hidden Str 10 attached to other units; I already have a Wolf Lord and Wolf Priest to split off if needs be.
AP 1 isn't a huge deal since most vehicles can't survive 5 Str 10 attacks rerolling 1s most of the time.
So Iron priest is 100 points on thunder wolf
A thunder wolf with fist is 65 points.
So you are paying 35 points for armor 2+ and ap 1.
In addition you can bring 4 additional wounds to the squad as well as split off and other such things.
The reason for the iron priest is not about getting more wounds, it is about going beyond the maximum unit size as well as additional movement versatility. Sure I could get 2-3 thunder wolves, however the unit cap is still 5 and anything that benefits on a per unit basis does not help me.
Cyber wolves offer a lot beyond additional wounds, they bring the ability to expand your unit making multi charges easier, being beasts they help make ing circumventing terrain easier. So on and so forth.
You are bringing a lot to the table with an iron priest.
I used to team up my Iron Priest [+4 Cyberwolves] with Canis [+2 Wolves] back in 5th. Never got to try that combo in 6th.
I did well with it then. It might work now, will have to give it a try.
The unit cap for Thunderwolves is 6 now. They start with three and can get three more. One of them is a character.
Quick aside here, but... Morkai's Claws... two specialist weapons or just one modeled as two (a la Tyranid CCWs)? My inclination is that they are two separate ones, but that seems egregious.
Leth wrote: It says a pair of claws, each claw has the below profile so you get +1 attack.
However they are 100% not worth it IMO
This +1. There is so much better to spend your points on. Fluff is the only reason anyone may take these if it fits their story. But they aren't worth their points.
I guess rules-wise it doesn't matter either way due to the wording of the Maul rule, but ehh. In my case, I have a sweet model with claws already, so...just making sure I've got all the pros and cons on deck, heh.
Going to ask some silly questions as i played Imperial Wolves in early 6th edition, and my LGS doesnt have a codex on hand.
does an allied unit (thinking conscripts here) benefit from the:
Wolf Priests preferred enemy (or is it like previous versions)
the Wulfen Stone (the thing that gives Furious charge)
What IC's from SW can take a Thunderwolf Mount (Battle leader, Iron Priest, named characters, Rune Priest?)
Leth wrote: It says a pair of claws, each claw has the below profile so you get +1 attack.
However they are 100% not worth it IMO
This +1. There is so much better to spend your points on. Fluff is the only reason anyone may take these if it fits their story. But they aren't worth their points.
They're 2 specialist weapons, but you get D3 bonus attacks instead of +1 due to the Maul special rule.
I think they're worth it if you wanted a infantry character specifically striking at initiative to help fill gaps in an I1 unit.
You get +d3 base attacks +1S and shred and rending for 5 points more than a pair of normal wolf claws would run you.
They'd be great on a WL or WGBL if you wanted to buff up a unit of TH/SS TDAWG for example (or that awesome Arjack formation with the TH/SS)
The problem is that you are spending an extra 15 points to 1/3 of the time get the same, 1/3 of the time get +1 attack and 1/3 of the time get +2 attacks.
And that is if you were already buying a pair of wolf claws(which after testing is a bad decision for the points anyway)
Here's a brutal support units I've been tinkering with
Wolf Guard with dual plasma pistols, jump packs with a jump pack Wolf Priest for preferred enemy of you choice.
I think this would synergies' well with drop pod locator beacons to deep strike in the unit and for instance fill a meq or teq squad with plasma, or even a scary looking MC. If they survive the round of shooting that'll inevitably comes at them they're nice and mobile to get to their next target and still benefit from 2 ccs for in assault.
More Dakka wrote: Yeah but now what are you going to do with that unit? Trudge up the board firing storm bolters?
Actually, I don't hate the idea...
I normally put them with Njal in some sort of cover on an Objective and lets the Storms do all the work. Most things that got close I got to do real damage. I had thought of using a Cestus, but that was usually filled with Logan and friends.
More Dakka wrote: I like it! But then I like a lot of things that are fun but not necessarily practical.
You're looking at a min 288 points for 3 WG with this loadout and the Priest (with nothing but the jump pack).
It's threatening but it's just going to get nuked by basically any anti-infantry fire.
I think a min sized squad of TDWAG with combi-plas and a priest in a pod are a better potion for 259 points.
I admit it's very pointy for what it does, I plan on magnetising my dudes so I'm definitely going to try this, perhaps with the following load out as part of an allied detachment:
Wolf Priest; runic armour, combo plas, jump pack
Wolf Guard (5) all with jp and, dual plasma pistols
More Dakka wrote: I like it! But then I like a lot of things that are fun but not necessarily practical.
You're looking at a min 288 points for 3 WG with this loadout and the Priest (with nothing but the jump pack).
It's threatening but it's just going to get nuked by basically any anti-infantry fire.
I think a min sized squad of TDWAG with combi-plas and a priest in a pod are a better potion for 259 points.
I admit it's very pointy for what it does, I plan on magnetising my dudes so I'm definitely going to try this, perhaps with the following load out as part of an allied detachment:
Wolf Priest; runic armour, combo plas, jump pack
Wolf Guard (5) all with jp and, dual plasma pistols
Which clocks in at 395 (ouch)
D
It could work in a fun list.... Maybe. But I'm not convinced. Apart from the TH/SS terminator combo, has anyone discovered any other realistic and competitive wolf guard load outs? Power armour or TDA
I think PAWG are overpriced, except maybe on bikes. I mean 1 guy with power weapon costs the same as a termi, WTF?
PA + combi +power weapon = 43 points
TDA + combi + power weapon = 38 ponts
5 TDAWG with 5 Combis, 3 shields and 2 chainfists could be nasty and for 220 points affordable.
PAWG in the CoF book with Jump packs are really reasonable.
Just sprinkle in some combis and storm shields to taste and they'll do just fine I think.
Outside of that I don't see any reason to throw points into them, they're barely better than GH for a considerable points hike.
TDAWG on the other hand are amaze.
I've been rolling the 2 TDAWG formations around in my head and I really like both.
One thing I failed to realize in the Arjac's Shieldbrothers formation is that you can take a min sized squad of TDAWG. So really you can field this for 519 points (assuming you put the MM on the Crusader, and why wouldn't you?). That's pretty cheap for a solid melee deathstar that also provides solid mid-ranged anti-infantry in the form of the LRC.
The Wolf Guard Void Claws formation is also pretty solid. If you combine it with a maxed drop pods list it gives you 5 units on the board T1 at 1500 (you can fit 7 drop pods comfortably into an army at this point level). That's a lot of threat and target saturation on the table.
The ability for them to reroll scatter makes them pretty reliable, and there's no restriction that prohibits you from putting a character into the unit to tank AP2 wounds (the most point efficient being Arjac again).
I think that's a bargain at 240. Those buffed up Wolf Claws are a solid threat to nearly anything short of walkers.
More Dakka wrote: I like it! But then I like a lot of things that are fun but not necessarily practical.
You're looking at a min 288 points for 3 WG with this loadout and the Priest (with nothing but the jump pack).
It's threatening but it's just going to get nuked by basically any anti-infantry fire.
I think a min sized squad of TDWAG with combi-plas and a priest in a pod are a better potion for 259 points.
I admit it's very pointy for what it does, I plan on magnetising my dudes so I'm definitely going to try this, perhaps with the following load out as part of an allied detachment:
Wolf Priest; runic armour, combo plas, jump pack
Wolf Guard (5) all with jp and, dual plasma pistols
Which clocks in at 395 (ouch)
D
Honestly, you might be better off running the Wolf Priest plus 5x Skyclaws (2x Plasma Guns and a Wolf Guard with combi-plasma or 2x Plas Pistols), which actually puts out more plasma shots at a longer range for 100pts less (less than that if you're running the Wolf Guard with 2x Plas Pistols).
More Dakka wrote: I like it! But then I like a lot of things that are fun but not necessarily practical.
You're looking at a min 288 points for 3 WG with this loadout and the Priest (with nothing but the jump pack).
It's threatening but it's just going to get nuked by basically any anti-infantry fire.
I think a min sized squad of TDWAG with combi-plas and a priest in a pod are a better potion for 259 points.
I admit it's very pointy for what it does, I plan on magnetising my dudes so I'm definitely going to try this, perhaps with the following load out as part of an allied detachment:
Wolf Priest; runic armour, combo plas, jump pack
Wolf Guard (5) all with jp and, dual plasma pistols
Which clocks in at 395 (ouch)
D
Honestly, you might be better off running the Wolf Priest plus 5x Skyclaws (2x Plasma Guns and a Wolf Guard with combi-plasma or 2x Plas Pistols), which actually puts out more plasma shots at a longer range for 100pts less (less than that if you're running the Wolf Guard with 2x Plas Pistols).
The problem I have with skyclaws is that they're BS3, so whilst they have longer range they're not hitting the target often enough for the points invested, and they still have all the vulnerabilities of the WG. My meta is very power armour heavy, so whilst I think this load out wil prove somewhat success for me, I definitely don't think it's the most competitive or point efficient.
More Dakka wrote: I like it! But then I like a lot of things that are fun but not necessarily practical.
You're looking at a min 288 points for 3 WG with this loadout and the Priest (with nothing but the jump pack).
It's threatening but it's just going to get nuked by basically any anti-infantry fire.
I think a min sized squad of TDWAG with combi-plas and a priest in a pod are a better potion for 259 points.
I admit it's very pointy for what it does, I plan on magnetising my dudes so I'm definitely going to try this, perhaps with the following load out as part of an allied detachment:
Wolf Priest; runic armour, combo plas, jump pack
Wolf Guard (5) all with jp and, dual plasma pistols
Which clocks in at 395 (ouch)
D
Honestly, you might be better off running the Wolf Priest plus 5x Skyclaws (2x Plasma Guns and a Wolf Guard with combi-plasma or 2x Plas Pistols), which actually puts out more plasma shots at a longer range for 100pts less (less than that if you're running the Wolf Guard with 2x Plas Pistols).
The problem I have with skyclaws is that they're BS3, so whilst they have longer range they're not hitting the target often enough for the points invested, and they still have all the vulnerabilities of the WG. My meta is very power armour heavy, so whilst I think this load out wil prove somewhat success for me, I definitely don't think it's the most competitive or point efficient.
D
Blood Claws and Skyclaws are not great Anti-Armor Units. They do best in the Anti-Infantry job, mostly because of the BS3. A small pack of Wolf Guard with Combi-Weapons, Melta-Bombs and/or Fist with jump pack can really do a number on most big thing though. You also don't need a Priest with them to give them a boost.
Besides the BS3 (which is mitigated somewhat with the Wolf Priest), how are they any worse at anti-armour than the similarly-equipped Wolf Guard unit, despite costing over 100pts less?
That said, running this as a dedicated anti-armour unit is probably a mistake considering how much they cost. I'm interested in 5x Skyclaws + 2 Meltaguns + Wolf Guard Combi-melta for a very cheap anti-armour option (115pts!). Even with BS3, they're doing to average 2 hits and then can follow up with krak grenades if need be.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: Besides the BS3 (which is mitigated somewhat with the Wolf Priest), how are they any worse at anti-armour than the similarly-equipped Wolf Guard unit, despite costing over 100pts less?
That said, running this as a dedicated anti-armour unit is probably a mistake considering how much they cost. I'm interested in 5x Skyclaws + 2 Meltaguns + Wolf Guard Combi-melta for a very cheap anti-armour option (115pts!). Even with BS3, they're doing to average 2 hits and then can follow up with krak grenades if need be.
As I see it you have two Melta-Guns and maybe a Combi-Melta.
You will probably hit with two Melta Shots the first time giving you a good shot of taking down your target, but after than, you now are probably going to be hitting with only one, and it does not do the job, now what?
Andilus Greatsword wrote: Besides the BS3 (which is mitigated somewhat with the Wolf Priest), how are they any worse at anti-armour than the similarly-equipped Wolf Guard unit, despite costing over 100pts less?
That said, running this as a dedicated anti-armour unit is probably a mistake considering how much they cost. I'm interested in 5x Skyclaws + 2 Meltaguns + Wolf Guard Combi-melta for a very cheap anti-armour option (115pts!). Even with BS3, they're doing to average 2 hits and then can follow up with krak grenades if need be.
As I see it you have two Melta-Guns and maybe a Combi-Melta.
You will probably hit with two Melta Shots the first time giving you a good shot of taking down your target, but after than, you now are probably going to be hitting with only one, and it does not do the job, now what?
In my experience small units with multiple meltas rarely have thec chance to fire twice. But I think a speeder or 2 with double MMs would be better than BCs for anti-tank
Andilus Greatsword wrote: Besides the BS3 (which is mitigated somewhat with the Wolf Priest), how are they any worse at anti-armour than the similarly-equipped Wolf Guard unit, despite costing over 100pts less?
That said, running this as a dedicated anti-armour unit is probably a mistake considering how much they cost. I'm interested in 5x Skyclaws + 2 Meltaguns + Wolf Guard Combi-melta for a very cheap anti-armour option (115pts!). Even with BS3, they're doing to average 2 hits and then can follow up with krak grenades if need be.
As I see it you have two Melta-Guns and maybe a Combi-Melta.
You will probably hit with two Melta Shots the first time giving you a good shot of taking down your target, but after than, you now are probably going to be hitting with only one, and it does not do the job, now what?
In my experience small units with multiple meltas rarely have thec chance to fire twice.
That is a separate issue in a way. Wolf Guard can mitigate this a little by being able to take a few Storm Shields, but then they no longer are cheep.
As for the Plasma Gun, while I love them, I would never take them on a Dedicated Assault Unit unless you can make them Relentless like Swiftclaws.
Leth wrote: Jump units and calvary are not relentless.
Becareful of that.
Yes that is a big thing a lot of people forget. More than once I have and a Assault Squad with a Combi-Plasma try to Assault me and I had to make them look it up.
Swift Claws on the other hand can make great use of Plasmas and Combi-Plasmas, that and the Multi-Melta Attack bile.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: Besides the BS3 (which is mitigated somewhat with the Wolf Priest), how are they any worse at anti-armour than the similarly-equipped Wolf Guard unit, despite costing over 100pts less?
That said, running this as a dedicated anti-armour unit is probably a mistake considering how much they cost. I'm interested in 5x Skyclaws + 2 Meltaguns + Wolf Guard Combi-melta for a very cheap anti-armour option (115pts!). Even with BS3, they're doing to average 2 hits and then can follow up with krak grenades if need be.
As I see it you have two Melta-Guns and maybe a Combi-Melta.
You will probably hit with two Melta Shots the first time giving you a good shot of taking down your target, but after than, you now are probably going to be hitting with only one, and it does not do the job, now what?
In my experience small units with multiple meltas rarely have thec chance to fire twice. But I think a speeder or 2 with double MMs would be better than BCs for anti-tank
If my 115pt suicide squad kills something or draws fire away from the rest of my army, I consider them a success. The more points you pour into that kind of unit though, the less attractive it becomes. I acknowledge that a double-melta Land Speeder is probably the more efficient option though, but Skyclaws would be a tad more survivable.
Kavish wrote: 10 wolf guard
10 combi-plasmas
1 drop pod
Would kill absolutely anything.
Edit: except av14.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On second thought, at 315pts there had better be something substantial for them to kill. Maybe just five would do.
I've been tossing around ideas like this but..... what do they do afterwards?
Are they just a 1-shot suicide squad, or do you buy them even more weapons so they do something else afterwards?
If you gave them plasma pistols instead of combi-plasma, they still get +1A in melee, and can fire for more than 1 turn.... although with either less range or less shots on turn 1
TBH, better value is probably the TDAWG (Does anyone else say this as "T-Dog"?)
since 5 combi weapons is probably overkill most of the time anyway, you could take 3 Termis with combi-weapons.
5 PAWG + combi = 140
3 TDAWG + combi AND Power Weapons = 114
They more survivable and have power weapons (or free SS)
DOOMONYOU wrote: Its a pity the minimum squad size went up for PAWG. I miss the 3 minimum squad. :(
It's still on terminators, who also get 5pt combis. 28pts for power armor and a combi vs 38 for combi, terminator armor, and a power weapon. Pod restrictions are a point of contention, but for a combi drop I have a hard time looking at PAWG over the terminators.
DOOMONYOU wrote: Its a pity the minimum squad size went up for PAWG. I miss the 3 minimum squad. :(
It's still on terminators, who also get 5pt combis. 28pts for power armor and a combi vs 38 for combi, terminator armor, and a power weapon. Pod restrictions are a point of contention, but for a combi drop I have a hard time looking at PAWG over the terminators.
28 points for a PAWG with a combi-weapon is just a bit too much IMHO. Especially considering as you said, for only ten points more you get terminator armor and a power weapon...
I mean it's 140 points plus the drop pod for 5 PAWG with combis. That's pricey
DOOMONYOU wrote: Its a pity the minimum squad size went up for PAWG. I miss the 3 minimum squad. :(
It's still on terminators, who also get 5pt combis. 28pts for power armor and a combi vs 38 for combi, terminator armor, and a power weapon. Pod restrictions are a point of contention, but for a combi drop I have a hard time looking at PAWG over the terminators.
28 points for a PAWG with a combi-weapon is just a bit too much IMHO. Especially considering as you said, for only ten points more you get terminator armor and a power weapon...
I mean it's 140 points plus the drop pod for 5 PAWG with combis. That's pricey
DOOMONYOU wrote: Its a pity the minimum squad size went up for PAWG. I miss the 3 minimum squad. :(
It's still on terminators, who also get 5pt combis. 28pts for power armor and a combi vs 38 for combi, terminator armor, and a power weapon. Pod restrictions are a point of contention, but for a combi drop I have a hard time looking at PAWG over the terminators.
28 points for a PAWG with a combi-weapon is just a bit too much IMHO. Especially considering as you said, for only ten points more you get terminator armor and a power weapon...
I mean it's 140 points plus the drop pod for 5 PAWG with combis. That's pricey
Especially for a suicide unit
With no mobility or real use after the initial shot.
TDAWG can't take a Drop Pod as a dedicated transport, meaning you have to rely on their teleporters or use up a fast attack slot for them. The for we means they can't contribute to a turn one drop pod alpha strike, which is a hallmark of Space Wolf tactics. The second means one less slot for Thunderwolves which have become nastily epic this edition.
PAWG face neither of these issues and you can bring twice as many in the pod if you want maximum firepower on arrival.
Remind me why dedicating one fast slot to a pod is so unreasonable? The only thing remotely competitive in the slot is TWC. If you're running three packs, that's one thing. Else one pod isn't too much to ask, unless of course you want multiple suicide drops, which also probably means less TWC. Now, sure, if you want 6-10 combi weapons shots at something then there's something to be said for PAWG. Else, again, I believe terminators are a better choice.
obsidiankatana wrote: Remind me why dedicating one fast slot to a pod is so unreasonable? The only thing remotely competitive in the slot is TWC. If you're running three packs, that's one thing. Else one pod isn't too much to ask, unless of course you want multiple suicide drops, which also probably means less TWC. Now, sure, if you want 6-10 combi weapons. Shots at something then there's something to be said for PAWG. Else, again, I believe terminators are a better choice.
Here here. We can get 3 melta shots or 6 plasma shots easily enough with a 10 man GH squad in a pod. Don't think most folks will be needing many "suicide" drop units...
Name: Wolf Guard [Power Armored]
FOC: Elite
UNIT TYPE: Infantry
UNIT COMPOSITION: 5-10 Models
WARGEAR:
Bolt Pistol
Chain Sword
Frag & Krack Grenades
Power Armor [Save: 3+]
SPECIAL RULES: Acute Senses
ATSKNF Counter Attack
OPTIONS: May replace their Bolt Pistol and/or Chain Sword for a Bolt Gun.
Any Model may take items from Melee and Ranged Weapons
Any Model may take Melta Bombs
The whole Pack may Take Bikes
The whole Pack may take Jump Packs
May take a Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod, Stormwolf, or any Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport.
What does all of this mean? This looks to be a very customizable unit. You can tool it up to be everything from a Gunline Force to an Assault Force.
Tools of the Trade and how to use and abuse them. >Bolt Pistol & Close Combat Weapon: The standard combination. This combination will give you 4 Attacks. Ragnar or someone with the Wulfen Stone will give you a boost.
>Basic Bolter Wolf Guard: By replacing your Bolt Pistol and/or CCW you can take a Bolt Gun [I would suggest the CCW]. Only lightly more expensive than Grey Hunter they can pull of the same basic job of Taking and Holding Objectives. Someone like a Wolf Priest can add a lot to your ability to project firepower.
>Storm Bolters: These give you the ability to make 2 long range shots and Assault after Firing. These might make a good choice if you only take one Specialist Weapon without a Storm Shield. It could be another good choice for as Objective Holders.
>Combi-Bolters: This creates something similar to the Basic Bolter Guard, but with the addition of additional Firepower.
>Combi-Flamer [Template, S4, AP5, Assault-1]: Good for either Taking or Holding Objective. A hand full of these should clear an objective and then another couple will make others wish they did not Assault you.
>Combi-Melta [12” S8, AP1, Assault-1]: If you are going to go Tank or MC hunting this is a good choice with the advantage of being able to Assault after firing.
>Plasma-Gun [24”, S7, AP2, Rapid Fire, Gets Hot]: A great option for Gunline or dealing with MCs and Armor.
>Plasma Pistol [12”, S7, AP2, Pistol, Gets Hot]: These are a good choice, mostly because you trade in your Chain Sword for the Plasma-Pistol, leaving you with your Bolt Pistol allowing you to use Gunslinger and you still get an extra attack for having the second Pistol.
>Frost Axe [S+2, AP-2, Melee, Unwieldy]: A good choice if you are planning on taking on 2+ models. A few in the Pack could really give you the ability to take on most units.
>Frost Sword [S+1, AP-3, Melee]: A good choice if you are planning on taking on most units.
>Power Axe [S+1, AP-2, Melee, Unwieldy]: A good choice if you are planning on taking on 2+ models. A few in the Pack could really give you the ability to take on most units.
>Power Lance [S-User, AP4, Melee or S+1, AP3, Melee on the Assault]: A fluffy and somewhat useful Power Weapon, great for Close Combat Wolf Guards.
>Power Maul [S+2, AP4, Melee, Concussive]: Another overlooked weapon that is good for dealing with Vehicles and MCs. It also lets you keep the extra attack for having 2 Melee Weapon if taken wit a Pistol.
>Power Sword [S-User, AP3, Melee]: A good basic choice for a Close Combat Wolf Guard Pack.
>Power Fist [Sx2, AP2, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy]: Great for slapping down MCs or Vehicles. I would not give it to the Pack Leader unless it is mixed with a Storm Shield.
>Thunder Hammer [Sx2, AP2, Concussive, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy]: A classic weapons that give you an extra punch. Again is a good weapon to team up with a Storm Shield, Storm Bolter or even a Combi-Bolter.
>Wolf Claw [S+1, AP3, Shred, Specialist Weapon]: Another very “Wolfy Weapon. Good mixes are Power Fist and Thunder Hammers, giving you a choice of the Wolf Claw or S8 Attacks.
>Storm Shield [3++ Save]: Just a great choice for survivability. I would suggest taking one for the Pack Leader just for Challenge Protection.
Dedicated Transport Options:
>Rhino [Model Capacity: 10 Models]: A great cheep no frills choice to get your Wolf Guard across the field.
>Razorback [Model Capacity: 6 Models]: Not as cheep as a Rhino, but it gives you extra firepower and can take up to 6 Wolf Guard.
>Drop Pod [Model Capacity: 10 models]: A quick way to get your Wolf Guard into the backfield. Good Weapon choices are Combi-Weapons and a few Storm Shields.
>Land Raider “God-Hammer” [Model Capacity: 10 Models]: A good solid choice with its mix of toughness and Long range Fire Power. Good with both types of Builds.
>Land Raider Crusader [Model Capacity: 16 Models]: This is a good in close Vehicle and with the extra space you can easily add as Wolf Lord or Wolf Guard Battle Leader with his Wolves. Probably best with a Close Combat Build.
>Land Raider Redeemer [Model Capacity: 12 Models]: Similar to the LRC, though instead of Bolters it has Flame Throwers. With its 12 model capacity you could even add a Character in Terminator Armor or both a Rune Priest and Wolf Priest.
>Stormwolf [Model Capacity: 16]: Similar to the LRC, but you must start in Reserves, but when you show up you will move quickly.
I'd be keen to try either of those combos, being a fan of bikers and jump pack type blood claws.
I'm just not sure how points effective they'd be compared to the cheapness of the blood claw versions
Maybe it's just me, but Bike and Jump Pack Wolf Guard just seem outclassed by their Blood Claw counter-parts in terms of points-efficiency.
I'm not really choked up if PAWG suck now though, I only ever ran Wolf Guard as pack leaders (which is an upgrade now, obviously), or in Terminator Armour.
karlosovic wrote: I'd be keen to try either of those combos, being a fan of bikers and jump pack type blood claws.
I'm just not sure how points effective they'd be compared to the cheapness of the blood claw versions
I think jumpers would be too expensive but bikes would be ok because Swiftclaws don't have a CCW. For only 5 points more you get +1 WS/BS, +1 A on a charge and +2 A when not charging.
I don't see Powered Armored Wolf Guard in a "Competitive Setting", but if tooled up right they could be devastating.
I could also see them in a larger game being used to slow down Death Stars when loaded up with Storm Shields.
DOOMONYOU wrote: Anpu, your synergy thread misses jump packs and Bikes.
I am talking about tactics, not synergy too.
Have people tried jump packs with combi-meltas or melta bombs?
I have not tried either yet so I am not sure on tactics.
Very limited on my Bike use. I have run a Swiftclaw unit, but for some reason if there is a Dreadnaught on the field they end up spending the whole game in Close Combat with it and I try to avoid them. So other than loading them up with Anti-Tank Weapons to make the Dread go away I have not devolved any.
As for Jump Units I mostly have run Assault Squads and Skyclaws. The closest thing to Jump Wolf Guard is a Blood Angels Honor Guard built to go with my Shrike Models all tooled up with Lighting Claws. My primary tactic for them is to bounce from cover to cover until you can get close enough to Assault.
I'm going to be running 1 small 5-man squad with 2 Meltaguns in a tournament at the end of this month. For only 95pts, it seems like too good a deal to pass up. I'll have a test game or 2 before then, so I might even drop them entirely, but they sound even more useful than my old standby of plasma Scouts.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: I'm going to be running 1 small 5-man squad with 2 Meltaguns in a tournament at the end of this month. For only 95pts, it seems like too good a deal to pass up. I'll have a test game or 2 before then, so I might even drop them entirely, but they sound even more useful than my old standby of plasma Scouts.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: I'm going to be running 1 small 5-man squad with 2 Meltaguns in a tournament at the end of this month. For only 95pts, it seems like too good a deal to pass up. I'll have a test game or 2 before then, so I might even drop them entirely, but they sound even more useful than my old standby of plasma Scouts.
Would it be considered viable to pay the WGSL upgrade and equip with melta bombs and combi-melta? Seems we are forced to pay a 10 point tax for MBs but getting an extra melta attack on a vehicle and at the very least forcing it to move next turn and make snap shots with all but one weapon lest it takes another melta bomb hit. Or better yet, tie up and actually stand a chance of hurting a MC. Seems OK to me.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: I'm going to be running 1 small 5-man squad with 2 Meltaguns in a tournament at the end of this month. For only 95pts, it seems like too good a deal to pass up. I'll have a test game or 2 before then, so I might even drop them entirely, but they sound even more useful than my old standby of plasma Scouts.
Would it be considered viable to pay the WGSL upgrade and equip with melta bombs and combi-melta? Seems we are forced to pay a 10 point tax for MBs but getting an extra melta attack on a vehicle and at the very least forcing it to move next turn and make snap shots with all but one weapon lest it takes another melta bomb hit. Or better yet, tie up and actually stand a chance of hurting a MC. Seems OK to me.
It could be worth it for the Melta Bomb that or a Power Fist, but then you start to run up the cost.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: I'm going to be running 1 small 5-man squad with 2 Meltaguns in a tournament at the end of this month. For only 95pts, it seems like too good a deal to pass up. I'll have a test game or 2 before then, so I might even drop them entirely, but they sound even more useful than my old standby of plasma Scouts.
Would it be considered viable to pay the WGSL upgrade and equip with melta bombs and combi-melta? Seems we are forced to pay a 10 point tax for MBs but getting an extra melta attack on a vehicle and at the very least forcing it to move next turn and make snap shots with all but one weapon lest it takes another melta bomb hit. Or better yet, tie up and actually stand a chance of hurting a MC. Seems OK to me.
It could be worth it for the Melta Bomb that or a Power Fist, but then you start to run up the cost.
I agree with this, but even for just the squad leader and a combi-melta, that's an additional 20pts... If you have the points to spare then I'd go for it, but I personally prefer to keep the points at a minimum on borderline-suicide squad.
All right, so in 2 weeks or so I should be getting a big shipment of bits and models in the mail. With these I will be able to confidently field 1000pt, maybe even 1500, but I lack transports. so there are some tactics I wanted some feedback on. I am confident these have been discussed, but I haven't seen anyone talk about how well they worked. I also have questions on why some tactics were great.
Ulrik the Slayer: I keep reading here and other sites that he is really boss now, he seems solid, but what puts him above and beyond? Is he a beatstick to go with 9 grey hunters in a pod? Or a buffer to run with a filled up land raider?
TWC: Everyone knows they are good, but where is the balance in wargear? How many special weapons, Storm shields or ICs do you feel is right? What has been the "magic number" for unit size for you? I was thinking 4 TWC, 2 or 3 shields, 1 PF/TH and 2 wolf claws, and a WGBA or Iron priest to roll with them.
Dreadnoughts: What has been working for everyone? I have seen the axe/shield dread do amazing things, and I have seen it get unlucky immobilized turn 1. I am leaning towards a helfrost/claw dread in pod.
Troops: Drop pods, rhinos, or razorbacks? Personally I am leaning towards drop pods, but I don't think it would hurt to have a few rhinos or razors on the field.
Formations: I havent seen much more than talk about how good formations look, very little talk of how good they actually are. Is it worth grabbing a land raider and Arjac, or am I throwing away money?
Lone Wolves: I really dig lone wolves, they just seem awesome. I havent seen many reports or tactica about them in a bit. TDA, wolf claw, SS and melta bombs seems nice to me, and will add some target saturation.
Combat rune priests Anyone tried a biomancy durfast biker priest yet? What about the tempestus powers, as lackluster as we thought?
Biker Wolf Priest Like the rune priest, curious to see if it is even needed in TWC, they seem plenty capable on their own. Are swift claws worth it with a wolf priest assist?
gwarsh41 wrote: All right, so in 2 weeks or so I should be getting a big shipment of bits and models in the mail. With these I will be able to confidently field 1000pt, maybe even 1500, but I lack transports. so there are some tactics I wanted some feedback on. I am confident these have been discussed, but I haven't seen anyone talk about how well they worked. I also have questions on why some tactics were great.
Ulrik the Slayer: I keep reading here and other sites that he is really boss now, he seems solid, but what puts him above and beyond? Is he a beatstick to go with 9 grey hunters in a pod? Or a buffer to run with a filled up land raider?
TWC: Everyone knows they are good, but where is the balance in wargear? How many special weapons, Storm shields or ICs do you feel is right? What has been the "magic number" for unit size for you? I was thinking 4 TWC, 2 or 3 shields, 1 PF/TH and 2 wolf claws, and a WGBA or Iron priest to roll with them.
Dreadnoughts: What has been working for everyone? I have seen the axe/shield dread do amazing things, and I have seen it get unlucky immobilized turn 1. I am leaning towards a helfrost/claw dread in pod.
Troops: Drop pods, rhinos, or razorbacks? Personally I am leaning towards drop pods, but I don't think it would hurt to have a few rhinos or razors on the field.
Formations: I havent seen much more than talk about how good formations look, very little talk of how good they actually are. Is it worth grabbing a land raider and Arjac, or am I throwing away money?
Lone Wolves: I really dig lone wolves, they just seem awesome. I havent seen many reports or tactica about them in a bit. TDA, wolf claw, SS and melta bombs seems nice to me, and will add some target saturation.
Combat rune priests Anyone tried a biomancy durfast biker priest yet? What about the tempestus powers, as lackluster as we thought?
Biker Wolf Priest Like the rune priest, curious to see if it is even needed in TWC, they seem plenty capable on their own. Are swift claws worth it with a wolf priest assist?
You might want to look at my Space Wolf Synergy Thread [look in my Sig] if you have not. It might not give you everything you need, but it should give you lots to work with.
stripeydave wrote: Was considering the power lance, but compared to the maul it seems kinda lame - especially with rending.
It is sort of a niche Weapon. If you know you are going to be going after MEQs it can be a good choice, but yes the rending does make the S+1 AP3 on Assault not as good.
On Bikes they average out though.
Would using the CoF detachment make PAWG any more viable? I feel like an assault jump squad with a butt lod of PWs at WS5 sounds retty good but is the added point of WS worth the additional pts?
In regards to Ulrik, he's good in basically any squad since Preferred Enemy buffs shooting and assault, plus he provides 6+ FNP for additional protection. I like to give him to a squad of Grey Hunters though to maximize the value of the shooting and assault versatility. Plasma Hunters would probably see the most benefit.
The fact that he's pretty powerful in CC in his own right is just gravy.
It improves them, but also improves Terminators and Thunderwolves, so you end up basically at the same point as without that book. IMO its strengths are a couple of the formations (the Thunderstrike is the only thing that makes me even THINK about my PAWGs).
Speaking of the Thunderstrike...how do the Drop Pod rules factor into it? If the Thunderstrike pod is part of your initial turn 1 drop pods, does that mean the Terminators auto-arrive with it? Can you even do this?
I am hoping that's the case. Would make a nasty Alpha Strike and null deployment set up if you paired it with odd numbered drop pod units and the Void Claws formation.
Ok, I'm an xenos player who is building my first space marine army in decades. So, be kind if this is dumb... lol
I love the stormwolf model, so I have been thinking about trying out 15 blood claws, ulrick, in a stormwolf. Is this stupid?
I know when I face storm ravens who are carrying cargo, I have to address it respectively, and usually manage to deal damage and hurt the dudes inside.
Has anyone had luck with packing dudes in this thing and letter her rip?
I'm fairly sure that the blood claws will tear through most infantry, and light vehicles... but will they ever actually hit the table?
Gangrel767 wrote: Ok, I'm an xenos player who is building my first space marine army in decades. So, be kind if this is dumb... lol
I love the stormwolf model, so I have been thinking about trying out 15 blood claws, ulrick, in a stormwolf. Is this stupid?
I know when I face storm ravens who are carrying cargo, I have to address it respectively, and usually manage to deal damage and hurt the dudes inside.
Has anyone had luck with packing dudes in this thing and letter her rip?
I'm fairly sure that the blood claws will tear through most infantry, and light vehicles... but will they ever actually hit the table?
That is actually SOP for the Stormwolf/Blood Claw/Ulrik Combo
pretre wrote: I think the difference between SR and SW is that I rarely see multiple Stormravens, whereas I would never run a SW alone. I've been running two.
You would probably see Stormravens more with Space Marines, Grey Knights and Blood Angels if they were Dedicated Transports. Just like Imperial Guard and Valks
That's a very good point. Having SW as dedicated transports is pretty awesome. Especially since they are low enough to the ground to take advantage of ObSec.
Im trying out the Bloodclaw+Priest assault from SW later today against a really nasty CSM/Daemons list. Im using both a SW and a Crusader to deliver two 15-man squads of BC into assault. One is joined by a Wolfpriest the other by a WGBL (trying him without the mount).
Paying 35pts more for Ulrik compared to a regular Wolfpriest is a decent tradeoff since you dont have to choose preferred and get a small stubborn-bubble as a bonus.
Had a game this past week. I wanted to see how the new psychic discipline holds out, so I took a Rune Priest as well as Njal Stormcaller. Njal in a pod with GH turn one, he weapon destroyed a Hammerhead (periled himself and took out half the squad), and the Rune Priest shooting from a Rhino with GH got a few wounds/glances before being killed by an Ork Biker Nob.
A squad of GH with a Rune Priest is what I'll will probably do from now on. Living Lightning, probably our best power, is real nice against that sweet rear armour, adding special weapons you have a nice little Alpha Strike. Not using Njal for that purpose though, too many points for the and he can't take the Helm of Durfast. They didn't have any infantry to mind bullet at, but it seems to me Tempestas is suited for hunting light armour.
Helm of Durfast is worth the points. With all those Witchfires we have ,twin-linking and Ignoring Cover make him a decent shooter against light armour.
Cool to hear about a rune priest with durfast doing well. Seems like a fun option. Njal doesnt really seem worth it unless you really want an ML3 caster in the army. His points seem adjusted well, but I just don't really see myself ever using him.
gwarsh41 wrote: Cool to hear about a rune priest with durfast doing well. Seems like a fun option. Njal doesnt really seem worth it unless you really want an ML3 caster in the army. His points seem adjusted well, but I just don't really see myself ever using him.
Podding him in looks to be a bad idea.
He will probably do well as a Mid-Field Unit if he is well protected.
In Theory vs. the right opponent.
Taking on the right opponent is the key.
Assaulting the Storm Shield/Thunder Hammer Terminators is a good way to get killed, though taking on mixed Weapon Chaos Terminators might not.
Sounds like he's pretty decent on the sled then. Good to know since I like the model and was considering adding it to my collection (well that and I have want to build the great company of Great Wolf).
gwarsh41 wrote: Cool to hear about a rune priest with durfast doing well. Seems like a fun option. Njal doesnt really seem worth it unless you really want an ML3 caster in the army. His points seem adjusted well, but I just don't really see myself ever using him.
He'd be much better if he wasn't basically forced to take Tempestas Powers with his special rules.
It comes with a base for Grimnar, iirc. the thing I messed up on and wish I hadn't was putting a magnet in the floor of the sled before I assembled it. Now I have to drill. :(
I use grass flock for my SW, but that's because I'm stuck in 3rd edition.
pretre wrote: It comes with a base for Grimnar, iirc. the thing I messed up on and wish I hadn't was putting a magnet in the floor of the sled before I assembled it. Now I have to drill. :(
I'll keep that in mind a head of time! My next purchase is the Battleforce (store still has one in stock) and/or a drop pod or two. I've got a legal 1741 pt list right now if I take everything, but it's not a good list right now either. So I need to work on it.
pretre wrote: I use grass flock for my SW, but that's because I'm stuck in 3rd edition.
I like doing different things for different armies. I feel it gives them more flavor that way. Plus with Wolves I'd feel a little blasphemous not putting them in winter basing of some kind.
So what's the consensus on buying CCWs or not? I've got a bunch modeled and like the idea of the extra attacks on Grey Hunters, but I don't know how useful it really is.
I base them all the same way so I can use the same display boards.....Also for when I mix and match my allies. Working on a new display board now that is going to look pretty cool(putting buildings and terrain on it to get most of my points for the board).
Once again another game where my Void shield has been such a huge deterrent that it has gotten me so many points its not even funny. Just the fact that I can get at least two objectives inside it means two units are not getting shot off it.
Also T-Wolves with chaplain, and HQ in a Bike command squad has been huge for getting there safely. Having a unit with 3+ Jink base as well as 5+ FNP has gotten my characters into many different combats while the chaplain gives the T-wolves re-roll hits and hit and run.
pretre wrote: It comes with a base for Grimnar, iirc. the thing I messed up on and wish I hadn't was putting a magnet in the floor of the sled before I assembled it. Now I have to drill. :(
I'll keep that in mind a head of time! My next purchase is the Battleforce (store still has one in stock) and/or a drop pod or two. I've got a legal 1741 pt list right now if I take everything, but it's not a good list right now either. So I need to work on it.
pretre wrote: I use grass flock for my SW, but that's because I'm stuck in 3rd edition.
I like doing different things for different armies. I feel it gives them more flavor that way. Plus with Wolves I'd feel a little blasphemous not putting them in winter basing of some kind.
So what's the consensus on buying CCWs or not? I've got a bunch modeled and like the idea of the extra attacks on Grey Hunters, but I don't know how useful it really is.
Depends on what you are dong with them
>Flamer Hunter: Yes go with them because are defiantly planning on Assaulting.
>Melta Hunters: Depends on how Aggressive you are going to be with them.
>Plasma Hunters: I would not bother as you are probably not going to Assault with them much.
pretre wrote: It comes with a base for Grimnar, iirc. the thing I messed up on and wish I hadn't was putting a magnet in the floor of the sled before I assembled it. Now I have to drill. :(
I'll keep that in mind a head of time! My next purchase is the Battleforce (store still has one in stock) and/or a drop pod or two. I've got a legal 1741 pt list right now if I take everything, but it's not a good list right now either. So I need to work on it.
pretre wrote: I use grass flock for my SW, but that's because I'm stuck in 3rd edition.
I like doing different things for different armies. I feel it gives them more flavor that way. Plus with Wolves I'd feel a little blasphemous not putting them in winter basing of some kind.
So what's the consensus on buying CCWs or not? I've got a bunch modeled and like the idea of the extra attacks on Grey Hunters, but I don't know how useful it really is.
Depends on what you are dong with them
>Flamer Hunter: Yes go with them because are defiantly planning on Assaulting.
>Melta Hunters: Depends on how Aggressive you are going to be with them.
>Plasma Hunters: I would not bother as you are probably not going to Assault with them much.
Currently I've got Plasma Hunters but I'm planning on changing some of them to flamer and melta instead. I plan to go Drop Pod heavy so having some dedicated anti-tank and anti-horde just seems prudent for future lists.
Though longer term I want to go full on Champions of Fenris so maybe it's not a huge deal as is either.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
karlosovic wrote: I've been doing 50% CCW and stick the guys with no CCW out front to take the first hits
I've been thinking... now that the WGPL counts towards pack numbers and we can fit both him and the 2nd special gun inside a 10-man transport.... and because combi-weapons have gone up in price... and because challenges... and because CCW now cost extra....
Maybe combi-weapons have lost their shine.
I'm thinking now that tooling the WGPL purely for close combat would be a better idea.
Maybe Claw and shield, or claw and fist, or plasma pistol & frost sword
ClockworkZion wrote: So what's the consensus on buying CCWs or not? I've got a bunch modeled and like the idea of the extra attacks on Grey Hunters, but I don't know how useful it really is.
They're definitely much less versatile in assault off the charge without them. It's especially noticeable if you're running MSU and get into assaults. In my opinion, if you're running a Wolf Banner, then you should stick CCWs on that squad as well to maximize assault potential.
Those are all expensive options though, so they're only worth it in aggressive melta/flamer packs - not plasma units
For a plasma gunline unit.... maybe TDA to tank shots (optional shield), or no WGPL at all
Shame the WGPL no longer has access to terminator heavy weapons, but I'll take the trade off for all the ways it's better now he's a proper part of the pack
ClockworkZion wrote: So what's the consensus on buying CCWs or not? I've got a bunch modeled and like the idea of the extra attacks on Grey Hunters, but I don't know how useful it really is.
They're definitely much less versatile in assault off the charge without them. It's especially noticeable if you're running MSU and get into assaults. In my opinion, if you're running a Wolf Banner, then you should stick CCWs on that squad as well to maximize assault potential.
Yeah that's a no brainer.
The Wolf Standard is not worth 25pts just for leadership (on top of ATSKNF)
It's all about the melee bonus, and since you can only take one banner (per FOC) you really want to maximise its potential if you're going to use it
I wouldn't run it in MSU unless you make sure to keep them all within 6", and even then you're still better off with larger packs all with CCW and as many special melee weapons as possible
ClockworkZion wrote: Though longer term I want to go full on Champions of Fenris so maybe it's not a huge deal as is either.
I can already do that easily
I'm definitely not there yet. This is what I currently own:
11x Lascannon Longfangs (need to build 1 more to bring total to 12, I have the lascannon, just not the spare body right now).
3x Long Fang Wolf Guard Pack Leader Bolt Pistol/Chainsword
4x Wolfguard Terminators with Wolf Claws
8x Grey Hunter w/ Bolters
11x grey Hunters w/ Bolter, Chainsword
8x Grey Hunter w/ Plasmagun
4x Grey Hunters w/ Plasma Pistol
4x Grey Hunters w/ Power Fists, Bolters
4x Bloodclaws (originally used to represent models w/ Mark of the Wulfen)
1x Ulfric the Slayer (metal)
1x Converted Ulfric the Slayer (Bolt Pistol, count-as Wolf Priest)
1x Rune Priest w/ Bolt Pistol, Runic Sword
This was originally a 2k all foot list built in 5th on a lark of trying to do something outside the usual meta of parking lot armies. It didn't do great.
karlosovic wrote: I've been thinking... now that the WGPL counts towards pack numbers and we can fit both him and the 2nd special gun inside a 10-man transport.... and because combi-weapons have gone up in price... and because challenges... and because CCW now cost extra....
Maybe combi-weapons have lost their shine.
I'm thinking now that tooling the WGPL purely for close combat would be a better idea.
Maybe Claw and shield, or claw and fist, or plasma pistol & frost sword
Thoughts?
Those are all good options, though it also depends what you are doing.
Gun Line Plasma Hunters, the Combi-Plasma and a Wolf Claw or Power Weapon might be worth it.
Drop Pod Wolves
>Flamer Hunters: I would go with a Shield and a Claw, maybe a Melta Bombs
>Melta Hunters: Combi-Melta, Power Fist or Thunder Hammer.
>Plasma Hunters: Combi-Melta, Wolf Claws or Power Maul
Out of Stormwolf, I would conceder Terminator Armor, but the same basic load out.
ClockworkZion wrote: Though longer term I want to go full on Champions of Fenris so maybe it's not a huge deal as is either.
I can already do that easily
I'm definitely not there yet. This is what I currently own:
11x Lascannon Longfangs (need to build 1 more to bring total to 12, I have the lascannon, just not the spare body right now).
3x Long Fang Wolf Guard Pack Leader Bolt Pistol/Chainsword
4x Wolfguard Terminators with Wolf Claws
8x Grey Hunter w/ Bolters
11x grey Hunters w/ Bolter, Chainsword
8x Grey Hunter w/ Plasmagun
4x Grey Hunters w/ Plasma Pistol
4x Grey Hunters w/ Power Fists, Bolters
4x Bloodclaws (originally used to represent models w/ Mark of the Wulfen)
1x Ulfric the Slayer (metal)
1x Converted Ulfric the Slayer (Bolt Pistol, count-as Wolf Priest)
1x Rune Priest w/ Bolt Pistol, Runic Sword
This was originally a 2k all foot list built in 5th on a lark of trying to do something outside the usual meta of parking lot armies. It didn't do great.
Lets see off the top of my head:
Logan, Njal, Bjorn, Ulrik, Canis
About 40 Wolf Guard Terminators
10-15 Powered Armored Wolf Guard
60 Grey Hunters [2 Packs of each Type]
60 Blood Claws
10 Skyclaws
6 Skyclaws + Attack Bike
12 Long Fangs [ML x7, LC x2, HB x1]
3x Thunderlords
5x Thunderwolf Cavalry
3x Land Speeders
Land Raider, Land Raider Crusader
20 Wolf Scouts
10-15 Wolves
And this does not count Proxies
Well I don't have quite tham much either, but close
Logan, Ragnar, Ulrik, Bjorn and both Njals
Thunder Lord
2 other Rune Priests (one TDA)
Wolf Priests on Bike and Jump Pack
WGBL jump pack
Iron Priest
30 WG Terminators
~10 WG Power Armour with mix of combi-weapons
40 Grey Hunters (2 packs plasma, 2 packs melta, all with extras for Power: Fist/ Axe/ Sword)
15 Blood Claws
24 Long Fangs (4x6, half ML, half mixed other)
10 Swift Claws inc Attack Bike
20 Sky Claws
10 Wolves
6 TWC 2xLand Raider (crusader & redeemer)
Las-Pred
Whirlwind
4xRazorback/Rhinos
Land Speeder
Storm Eagle Gunship (bloody hard kit to build!)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and the new VenDread - Axe & Shield
plus regular dread with plasma cannon
It's a great kit. I may never use it, but it's still awesome looking. I managed to magnetize the crap out of it.
I think it's one of the best close combat dreads in the game. That 3++ really makes it extra survivable. A Dreadnought Drop Pod with him or Murderfang to give them an extra turn of protection (unless they FAQ'd it, they don't get out of the Drop Pod when it hits, and it's an assault vehicle) seems like an awesome combo.
gwarsh41 wrote: What do you mean, like the FW dreadnought pod doesn't have to open when it arrives?
I don't know if it's been errata'd but it didn't have the rule that said models had to disembark when it lands which basically makes up for the rules regarding not being able to assault when coming from reserves in 6th edition.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And looking closer apparently it's actually a bit of a mess rules-wise because it gives the model inside Shrouded which means that it either disembarks and has Shrouded while standing on the model, or it doesn't disembark and Shrouded is a mess since the only things that can hit models inside of open-topped transports are templates (which ignore cover).
Automatically Appended Next Post: To borrow someone who explained it better's post from B&C:
The Dreadnought needs to remain on part of the Lucius model to get Shrouding. That is the wording. No mention of it being embarked or disembarked at all in that rules, so normal rules apply and you'd need to disembark but stay on part of the Lucius model to make use of that rule.
Separately it also has Assault Vehicle (that can't be used on the turn it Deep Strikes) and is lacking the rule in Drop Pod Assault that forces you to disembark on the turn it arrives. So this allows the Dread to stay embarked on the Drop Pod and it can still shoot out (due to Open Topped) and then disembark and assault the turn after it Deep Strikes.
Anpu42 wrote: Lets see off the top of my head:
Logan, Njal, Bjorn, Ulrik, Canis
About 40 Wolf Guard Terminators
10-15 Powered Armored Wolf Guard
60 Grey Hunters [2 Packs of each Type]
60 Blood Claws
10 Skyclaws
6 Skyclaws + Attack Bike
12 Long Fangs [ML x7, LC x2, HB x1]
3x Thunderlords
5x Thunderwolf Cavalry
3x Land Speeders
Land Raider, Land Raider Crusader
20 Wolf Scouts
10-15 Wolves
And this does not count Proxies
I'm pretty close to this, but 1/3 of the Termies, 3/4ths of the core infantry and no bikers or Land Speeders basically (but swap those out for my Dreadnoughts, tons of tanks, etc and it's close enough). I can run the Apoc Great Company formation and still have units to spare.
Not 100% precise, but more or less the following:
Spoiler:
Logan, Ulrik, Ragnar, 2 versions of Njal, Canis Wolfborn, really old metal Bjorn
3 different versions of my Wolf Lord (3rd ed Terminator Armour, Runic Armour version and Scibor Terminator version for ultra-badassery)
TWC Lord
3 Rune Priests (official model, old school metal Terminator model and a lightly converted BA Chaplain from 3rd ed)
3 Wolf Priests (converted chaplain, a Jump Pack one based on my character in a Deathwatch campaign and a Terminator conversion I whipped up based on the one in the new Codex)
14 or 15 Blood Claws + Lukas
70-80 Grey Hunters (possibly even more)
1 Iron Priest
~20 Wolf Scouts
2 Lone Wolfs (Lone Wolves? )
4 or 5 Dreadnoughts + Murderfang
~15 Terminators + Arjac Rockfist
6 Rhinos, 1 Razorback
5 TWC 7 Fenrisian Wolves
9 Skyclaws
17 Long Fangs
2 Vindicators
1 Land Raider Crusader
5 Old School Wulfen
Storm Eagle Gunship
10 Wolf Guard Sky Guard - Jump Packs, 2xCombi Melta & Storm Shield, Power Fist, Pair of Claws, 2xPower Axe - 345
It's almost double the points of my usual Skyclaws unit of:
10 Skyclaws - Power Fist, Flamer - 180
Is there a viable way to build a Wolf Guard "Sky Guard" unit?
I don't see the point of paying extra for Wolf Guard unless you're going to make use of their weapon options.... but is it too many points on what is still a T4 W1 3+ unit (albeit with 2 SS thrown in)
I'm thinking the best way to use them would be deep striking. Open to suggestions of a suitable IC
karlosovic wrote: Is there a viable way to build a Wolf Guard "Sky Guard" unit?
I've been wondering the same myself actually. It seems like the best route to take PAWG, but equipping them properly is another question entirely.
Yes that's certainly a key part of it.
My thinking is if they deep strike, then they don't have to risk several turns hopping around the battlefield getting shot before they can do their thing.
So they deep strike in and use the combi-meltas first turn to try and pop something. Those guys then, having fired their weapon, become tanks (with the SS) to try and keep the rest of the guys alive long enough to assault something on the following turn. Not sure if I've got the right mix of weapons though
Having thought about it, since PAWG don't have Bolters I'd say if you want them shooty, give them bikes, if you want them punchy take Packs. I don't really have great advice about how to gear them up yet, but that basically covers my very limited opinion on what to do with them since they just don't stike me as great on their own without one of those sets of upgrades (unless you play Kill Teams or something).
Automatically Appended Next Post: I stand corrected, PAWG can get Bolters. They just can't get them and keep the bonus attacks. Bolters for PF/SS models only I guess.
Still looks like bikes and packs are better for them all around though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a small tangent, what are the thoughts on how to gear up Lone Wolves?
Well for Lone Wolves I use two basic Builds
1] Power Armor, Storm Shield, Frost Blade [it used to be 2] SS/MotW]: Looks good and solid and give you Sweeping Advance. I run a Pair with 2 wolves each. They usually do good, but I have not gotten to take them out yet with the new Dex. I may add Melta Bombs.
Terminator Armor, Chain Fist, Wolf Claw: This give you a option to take on everything with a 2+/5++ Save. Now you can Deep Strike them.
This is my list I'm looking at running soon some feedback would be great as I haven't picked up all the models yet.
Seems a bit short on models though
Tournament Rules
Spoiler:
Building army:
All armies must have only one Combined Arms Detachment (CAD). This may be chosen from the following list: (1 item from bellow may be used)
1. Normal codex/rulebook combined arms detachment.
2. Codex particular combined arms detachment (eg Nemesis strike force from codex grey knights)
3. A formation may be used as a CAD. (eg grey knight brother hood)
Allied detachment: (1 item from bellow may be used)
1. May be taken as normal, but no Come the Apocalypse allies may be taken.
2. Formation, either electronic or from relevant codex. Must be of the same, battle brothers of or no faction as the CAD above.
3. Data slate, maybe taken from relevant electronic sources. If unsure please check first. Must be of the same, battle brothers to, or have no faction as CAD above.
Fortifications:
Have no restrictions at this tournament, but if using non GW standard fortifications please send me a picture first with a standard model stood next to it to check scale please.
Lord of war units:
Can be used, but have a 400pt restriction. All 40k approved, Escalation and codex LOW can be used
All Codexs are viable and all Forge World units
Codex: Imperial Knights may be used, but are limited to 1 Knight (of either type) only and counts as either your Lord of war or Allies detachment.
1750 list
Spoiler:
Space Wolves Champions of Fenris - Company of the Great Wolf Detachment
Thunderwolf Cavalry
PF/SS PF/SS SS 215
Thunderwolf Cavalry
PF/SS PF/SS SS 215
Wolf Lord
2 Fen Wolves
Thunder Wolf
Runic Armour
Krakenbone Sword
Melta Bombs
Storm Shield
246
Wolf Guard Terminators
2 extra
AC/PW SB/PW SB/CF SB/SS SB/PW 200
Wolf Guard Terminators
1 extra
CM/SS/Cyclone
CM/CF CM/SS CM/WC 202
Arjac
115
Drop Pod
35
Allies - Offico Assassinorum
Culexus Assassin
140
LOW - Imperial Knights
Knight Errant
370
Total 1738
Arjac goes in the drop pod with the Wolf Guard above him in the list, its a go for the throat list everything just pounds forwards the other termi unit will DS in.
Not sure whether to have the Culexus or the Callidus Assassin at this point.
Anpu42 wrote: Well for Lone Wolves I use two basic Builds
1] Power Armor, Storm Shield, Frost Blade [it used to be 2] SS/MotW]: Looks good and solid and give you Sweeping Advance. I run a Pair with 2 wolves each. They usually do good, but I have not gotten to take them out yet with the new Dex. I may add Melta Bombs.
Terminator Armor, Chain Fist, Wolf Claw: This give you a option to take on everything with a 2+/5++ Save. Now you can Deep Strike them.
Well your build is going to lose a little already: no more MotW.
That aside, I am liking the Terminator option. It just seems like a good all-rounder who can tank a little while he's at it.
Anpu42 wrote: Well for Lone Wolves I use two basic Builds
1] Power Armor, Storm Shield, Frost Blade [it used to be 2] SS/MotW]: Looks good and solid and give you Sweeping Advance. I run a Pair with 2 wolves each. They usually do good, but I have not gotten to take them out yet with the new Dex. I may add Melta Bombs.
Terminator Armor, Chain Fist, Wolf Claw: This give you a option to take on everything with a 2+/5++ Save. Now you can Deep Strike them.
Well your build is going to lose a little already: no more MotW.
That aside, I am liking the Terminator option. It just seems like a good all-rounder who can tank a little while he's at it.
Yes I know my PA Lone Wolves lost a bit, I will have to see how they go. I used to be able to chew up a Squad a Turn, large mobs took a bit.
I once that the two keep a 30 model Ork Mob busy the whole Game. I would have wiped them out, but I forgot I was WS5.
GiraffeX wrote: This is my list I'm looking at running soon some feedback would be great as I haven't picked up all the models yet.
Seems a bit short on models though
Tournament Rules
Spoiler:
Building army:
All armies must have only one Combined Arms Detachment (CAD). This may be chosen from the following list: (1 item from bellow may be used)
1. Normal codex/rulebook combined arms detachment.
2. Codex particular combined arms detachment (eg Nemesis strike force from codex grey knights)
3. A formation may be used as a CAD. (eg grey knight brother hood)
Allied detachment: (1 item from bellow may be used)
1. May be taken as normal, but no Come the Apocalypse allies may be taken.
2. Formation, either electronic or from relevant codex. Must be of the same, battle brothers of or no faction as the CAD above.
3. Data slate, maybe taken from relevant electronic sources. If unsure please check first. Must be of the same, battle brothers to, or have no faction as CAD above.
Fortifications:
Have no restrictions at this tournament, but if using non GW standard fortifications please send me a picture first with a standard model stood next to it to check scale please.
Lord of war units:
Can be used, but have a 400pt restriction. All 40k approved, Escalation and codex LOW can be used
All Codexs are viable and all Forge World units
Codex: Imperial Knights may be used, but are limited to 1 Knight (of either type) only and counts as either your Lord of war or Allies detachment.
1750 list
Spoiler:
Space Wolves Champions of Fenris - Company of the Great Wolf Detachment
Thunderwolf Cavalry
PF/SS PF/SS SS 215
Thunderwolf Cavalry
PF/SS PF/SS SS 215
Wolf Lord
2 Fen Wolves
Thunder Wolf
Runic Armour
Krakenbone Sword
Melta Bombs
Storm Shield
246
Wolf Guard Terminators
2 extra
AC/PW SB/PW SB/CF SB/SS SB/PW 200
Wolf Guard Terminators
1 extra
CM/SS/Cyclone
CM/CF CM/SS CM/WC 202
Arjac
115
Drop Pod
35
Allies - Offico Assassinorum
Culexus Assassin
140
LOW - Imperial Knights
Knight Errant
370
Total 1738
Arjac goes in the drop pod with the Wolf Guard above him in the list, its a go for the throat list everything just pounds forwards the other termi unit will DS in.
Not sure whether to have the Culexus or the Callidus Assassin at this point.
Thanks
Is it just me, or are there no Troops in your primary detachment? I thought it said it had to be a CAD detachment?
I have spotted a mistake though I need to have 5 WG in the last squad to have the cyclone so that puts the unit to 6 models with Arjac, they cant go via drop pod now, back to the drawing board
I'm not finding this very easy, spent all day trying to make a list
GiraffeX wrote: In point two you can use a unique detachment.
I have spotted a mistake though I need to have 5 WG in the last squad to have the cyclone so that puts the unit to 6 models with Arjac, they cant go via drop pod now, back to the drawing board
I'm not finding this very easy, spent all day trying to make a list
Just FYI, there is no such thing as a codex specific combined arms detachment. There is only one CAD and that's the detachment available from the rulebook. Codex specific detachments are exactly that. Detachments. Not Combined arms detachments.
And he has no troops as he is picking a company of the great wolf detachment. Requires no troops at all. But a minimum of 2 Elites.
Something amusing I spotted today: you can built an all TWC army if you really want. Champions of Fenris FOC, Iron Priests for your Elites, and HQ on a TW and TWC to fill out the rest of the army. Add Cyberwolves and Fenrisian Wolves to taste.
Probably not the most effective army you can field, but possible one of the most interesting/thematic!
Yep, I read the champions and realized that you cant actually take a regular detachment from that book so I switched to scars primary, Champions secondary. That gave me thunderwolves at WS 5 as well as all wolf guard at weapon skill 5.
I am trying out a 3 man unit of terminators as my second elite with 3 combi meltas, 2 storm shields, and 1 power fist on the leader.
I am interested in seeing if I might be better off switching to combi plasmas or not.
I was looking at the Champions of Fenris supplement the other day and I can see one argument for taking PAWG with packs or bikes over the Blood Claw version: WS5 on the PAWG.
I guess they're basically WS5 Blood Claws in the CoF supplement.
Leth wrote:Yep, I read the champions and realized that you cant actually take a regular detachment from that book so I switched to scars primary, Champions secondary.
As far as I can tell now, the only difference between primary and secondary is which one you want for Warlord. Personally I'd go for the Wolf Lord, but I guess it depends which traits you want?
Leth wrote:Dont forget +1 attack as well as a chance for preferred enemy for an extra 6 points. A bit pricy but not bad.
Blood Claws get Rage though, so same attacks on the charge
Anpu42 wrote:Well for Lone Wolves I use two basic Builds
1] Power Armor, Storm Shield, Frost Blade [it used to be 2] SS/MotW]: Looks good and solid and give you Sweeping Advance. I run a Pair with 2 wolves each. They usually do good, but I have not gotten to take them out yet with the new Dex. I may add Melta Bombs.
Terminator Armor, Chain Fist, Wolf Claw: This give you a option to take on everything with a 2+/5++ Save. Now you can Deep Strike them.
I haven't gotten to try the new codex (or edition, really) yet, but does their giving up KP now not seem like an issue? I mean, having a dude you can use as a (FOC-less) spanner in the works seems nice, I admit, but also very fragile. Seems kind of gambity to use LWs now.
Anpu42 wrote:Well for Lone Wolves I use two basic Builds
1] Power Armor, Storm Shield, Frost Blade [it used to be 2] SS/MotW]: Looks good and solid and give you Sweeping Advance. I run a Pair with 2 wolves each. They usually do good, but I have not gotten to take them out yet with the new Dex. I may add Melta Bombs.
Terminator Armor, Chain Fist, Wolf Claw: This give you a option to take on everything with a 2+/5++ Save. Now you can Deep Strike them.
I haven't gotten to try the new codex (or edition, really) yet, but does their giving up KP now not seem like an issue? I mean, having a dude you can use as a (FOC-less) spanner in the works seems nice, I admit, but also very fragile. Seems kind of gambity to use LWs now.
I think it will come down to the Mission. I do feel the loss of them not giving a VP sad, but not the end of the world.
This should be where the Terminator Armored or putting one in a Stormfang will be a big thing. Because of there late arrival times they should not be giving up "First Blood".
Leth wrote:Yep, I read the champions and realized that you cant actually take a regular detachment from that book so I switched to scars primary, Champions secondary.
As far as I can tell now, the only difference between primary and secondary is which one you want for Warlord. Personally I'd go for the Wolf Lord, but I guess it depends which traits you want?
I always go strategic(they are too good not to,unless there are zero ruins on the table. Even then) so traits don't matter much. It becomes a matter of being able to get an eternal warrior warlord versus the wolf lord(which I have upgraded to now that I don't have the troops).
Leth wrote: Dont forget +1 attack as well as a chance for preferred enemy for an extra 6 points. A bit pricy but not bad.
True, the WGPL can get PE, but I was speaking more about the WGPA unit as a whole. They basically feel like buffed Bloodclaws with more choppy options the more I look at them. I don't know if it really makes them worth it, but I'm thinking it might be the best approach for them: not as Vet Grey Hunters but Vet Blood Claws.
ClockworkZion wrote: Has anyone tried out the Space Sled at all yet? I've been curious how it stacks up in a game.
I've never used chariots ever. People tell me when it is wrecked the rider dies. If that is the case the sled is terrible!
It wouldn't die as quickly if you toss a couple of shooting fodder Fenrisina wolves with Logan's chariot.. . Not to mention a pack of 15 running just in front of him towards the target >
Bringing a pod full of WGPA seems like a pretty fun choice now. It was a blast in 5th (last time I played wolves). Bring 10, give a bundle combi weapons, give a bundle power weapons and create a moderately expensive high threat do your enemies back line. Place it right with some other pod units, or TWC/Bikes running up and it should be a blast.
ClockworkZion wrote: Has anyone tried out the Space Sled at all yet? I've been curious how it stacks up in a game.
I've never used chariots ever. People tell me when it is wrecked the rider dies. If that is the case the sled is terrible!
It wouldn't die as quickly if you toss a couple of shooting fodder Fenrisina wolves with Logan's chariot.. . Not to mention a pack of 15 running just in front of him towards the target >
ClockworkZion wrote: Has anyone tried out the Space Sled at all yet? I've been curious how it stacks up in a game.
I've never used chariots ever. People tell me when it is wrecked the rider dies. If that is the case the sled is terrible!
It wouldn't die as quickly if you toss a couple of shooting fodder Fenrisina wolves with Logan's chariot.. . Not to mention a pack of 15 running just in front of him towards the target >
ClockworkZion wrote: Has anyone tried out the Space Sled at all yet? I've been curious how it stacks up in a game.
I've never used chariots ever. People tell me when it is wrecked the rider dies. If that is the case the sled is terrible!
It wouldn't die as quickly if you toss a couple of shooting fodder Fenrisina wolves with Logan's chariot.. . Not to mention a pack of 15 running just in front of him towards the target >
Logan can't buy any Wolves.
True, but nothing stops the mobile Meat Shield.
Also true. I just wanted to point out that the effectively 7 wound Logan on a Chariot (4 wounds + 3 Hull Points) can't bump it to 9 (I wish he could take a couple on foot at least though). At least with EW he can help tank shots. Plus the chariot can't explode (since all pens are glances).
ClockworkZion wrote: Has anyone tried out the Space Sled at all yet? I've been curious how it stacks up in a game.
I've never used chariots ever. People tell me when it is wrecked the rider dies. If that is the case the sled is terrible!
It wouldn't die as quickly if you toss a couple of shooting fodder Fenrisina wolves with Logan's chariot.. . Not to mention a pack of 15 running just in front of him towards the target >
Logan can't buy any Wolves.
True, but nothing stops the mobile Meat Shield.
Also true. I just wanted to point out that the effectively 7 wound Logan on a Chariot (4 wounds + 3 Hull Points) can't bump it to 9 (I wish he could take a couple on foot at least though). At least with EW he can help tank shots. Plus the chariot can't explode (since all pens are glances).
Actually it is 6 wounds at taking Logan or Storm Rider to 0Woulds/Hull Points take him out, witch should take at least 12 time to achieve.
Also Remember you can take your 4 Free Attacks, a S7 Attack on I5 and then on I1 if you are free move 3" if you need to, to inflict some S8 goodness.
ClockworkZion wrote: Has anyone tried out the Space Sled at all yet? I've been curious how it stacks up in a game.
I've never used chariots ever. People tell me when it is wrecked the rider dies. If that is the case the sled is terrible!
It wouldn't die as quickly if you toss a couple of shooting fodder Fenrisina wolves with Logan's chariot.. . Not to mention a pack of 15 running just in front of him towards the target >
Logan can't buy any Wolves.
True, but nothing stops the mobile Meat Shield.
Also true. I just wanted to point out that the effectively 7 wound Logan on a Chariot (4 wounds + 3 Hull Points) can't bump it to 9 (I wish he could take a couple on foot at least though). At least with EW he can help tank shots. Plus the chariot can't explode (since all pens are glances).
Actually it is 6 wounds at taking Logan or Storm Rider to 0Woulds/Hull Points take him out, witch should take at least 12 time to achieve.
Also Remember you can take your 4 Free Attacks, a S7 Attack on I5 and then on I1 if you are free move 3" if you need to, to inflict some S8 goodness.
I get what you're saying on the wounds/HP thing, just took a second for it to click.
And yeah, he seems like a right proper monster on that thing.
ClockworkZion wrote: Has anyone tried out the Space Sled at all yet? I've been curious how it stacks up in a game.
I've never used chariots ever. People tell me when it is wrecked the rider dies. If that is the case the sled is terrible!
It wouldn't die as quickly if you toss a couple of shooting fodder Fenrisina wolves with Logan's chariot.. . Not to mention a pack of 15 running just in front of him towards the target >
Logan can't buy any Wolves.
True, but nothing stops the mobile Meat Shield.
Also true. I just wanted to point out that the effectively 7 wound Logan on a Chariot (4 wounds + 3 Hull Points) can't bump it to 9 (I wish he could take a couple on foot at least though). At least with EW he can help tank shots. Plus the chariot can't explode (since all pens are glances).
Actually it is 6 wounds at taking Logan or Storm Rider to 0Woulds/Hull Points take him out, witch should take at least 12 time to achieve.
Also Remember you can take your 4 Free Attacks, a S7 Attack on I5 and then on I1 if you are free move 3" if you need to, to inflict some S8 goodness.
I get what you're saying on the wounds/HP thing, just took a second for it to click.
And yeah, he seems like a right proper monster on that thing.
I think so, I am just going have to wait a few months before I can find out for sure.
Yep, I read the champions and realized that you cant actually take a regular detachment from that book so I switched to scars primary, Champions secondary.
Why is that Leth ? I do like it as now I can work in a Librarian on bike. I also want the Wolf Priest on a bike to go with the command squad - I think that was your idea too.
I found that while the chaplain was nice, I really needed that eternal warrior chapter master. to tank wounds and help keep the unit alive.
At that point it is a matter of points. I think it works quite well with a chaplain as well, however I find that the boost to WS 5 helps to mitigate that in addition to the chance to get prefered enemy.
There are a lot of different buiilds that could work just fine but for the purposes of my list this works way better.
So I have made a few lists but still havent had a chance to play with my wolves. If memory serves, I have about 60 power armor marines. I am 90% sure I wont ever use all of them, and I am considering selling a bunch.
Of the lists I have made, only a few have 30 power armor models that are not riding wolves. Has anyone played a GH spam list, and is it worth having this many bodies? With the flier, dreadnoughts and TWC, I just don't have enough points.
gwarsh41 wrote: So I have made a few lists but still havent had a chance to play with my wolves. If memory serves, I have about 60 power armor marines. I am 90% sure I wont ever use all of them, and I am considering selling a bunch.
Of the lists I have made, only a few have 30 power armor models that are not riding wolves. Has anyone played a GH spam list, and is it worth having this many bodies? With the flier, dreadnoughts and TWC, I just don't have enough points.
To Quote Team America: Yes!
I do it all of the time [2x Plasma Hunter, 2x Melta Hunters, 2x Flamer Hunters]. The level of Accurate Fire can impress Tau.
The ability to Counter Assault can cause Ork and Nids to think twice.
Then Supported by some Long Fangs and a couple of Rune Priest actual make a decent TAC Foot List.
I hadn't considered a foot force that didn't have pods or rhinos. Ill see what I can write up. Might just be fun enough to keep all those bodies for!
So just for giggles and because I can.
2x 10GH +2 plasma
2x 10GH +2 melta with 10CC weps
2x 10GH +2 flamer with 10CC weps
Leaves me with 50pt left over. I could give both plasma units CC weapons and have 10, which doesn't seem like a bad idea. 60GH on the table with 4 lone wolves popping up in the back field, hopefully sooner rather than later. I just worry about stuff like demolisher cannons. I guess I could also go full on TDA leading the GH packs too. That gets pricy pretty quick though.
ClockworkZion wrote: Has anyone tried out the Space Sled at all yet? I've been curious how it stacks up in a game.
I've never used chariots ever. People tell me when it is wrecked the rider dies. If that is the case the sled is terrible!
It wouldn't die as quickly if you toss a couple of shooting fodder Fenrisina wolves with Logan's chariot.. . Not to mention a pack of 15 running just in front of him towards the target >
Logan can't buy any Wolves.
True, but nothing stops the mobile Meat Shield.
Also true. I just wanted to point out that the effectively 7 wound Logan on a Chariot (4 wounds + 3 Hull Points) can't bump it to 9 (I wish he could take a couple on foot at least though). At least with EW he can help tank shots. Plus the chariot can't explode (since all pens are glances).
Actually it is 6 wounds at taking Logan or Storm Rider to 0Woulds/Hull Points take him out, witch should take at least 12 time to achieve.
Also Remember you can take your 4 Free Attacks, a S7 Attack on I5 and then on I1 if you are free move 3" if you need to, to inflict some S8 goodness.
I get what you're saying on the wounds/HP thing, just took a second for it to click.
And yeah, he seems like a right proper monster on that thing.
I think so, I am just going have to wait a few months before I can find out for sure.
For hilarity's sake, get a rune priest to cast endurance on Stormrider. Then he can regen his wounds (as can Stormrider) as well and get FNP (just for Logan, I believe). muhahahaha
ClockworkZion wrote: Has anyone tried out the Space Sled at all yet? I've been curious how it stacks up in a game.
I've never used chariots ever. People tell me when it is wrecked the rider dies. If that is the case the sled is terrible!
It wouldn't die as quickly if you toss a couple of shooting fodder Fenrisina wolves with Logan's chariot.. . Not to mention a pack of 15 running just in front of him towards the target >
Logan can't buy any Wolves.
True, but nothing stops the mobile Meat Shield.
Also true. I just wanted to point out that the effectively 7 wound Logan on a Chariot (4 wounds + 3 Hull Points) can't bump it to 9 (I wish he could take a couple on foot at least though). At least with EW he can help tank shots. Plus the chariot can't explode (since all pens are glances).
Actually it is 6 wounds at taking Logan or Storm Rider to 0Woulds/Hull Points take him out, witch should take at least 12 time to achieve.
Also Remember you can take your 4 Free Attacks, a S7 Attack on I5 and then on I1 if you are free move 3" if you need to, to inflict some S8 goodness.
I get what you're saying on the wounds/HP thing, just took a second for it to click.
And yeah, he seems like a right proper monster on that thing.
I think so, I am just going have to wait a few months before I can find out for sure.
For hilarity's sake, get a rune priest to cast endurance on Stormrider. Then he can regen his wounds (as can Stormrider) as well and get FNP (just for Logan, I believe). muhahahaha
Oh that is deliciously evil. I may need to get a bottle to collect all the gamer tears for doing that.
ClockworkZion wrote: Has anyone tried out the Space Sled at all yet? I've been curious how it stacks up in a game.
I've never used chariots ever. People tell me when it is wrecked the rider dies. If that is the case the sled is terrible!
It wouldn't die as quickly if you toss a couple of shooting fodder Fenrisina wolves with Logan's chariot.. . Not to mention a pack of 15 running just in front of him towards the target >
Logan can't buy any Wolves.
True, but nothing stops the mobile Meat Shield.
If by "Mobile Meat Shield" you men a separate pack of Fenrisian Wolves.... that's useless
Due to the f#$%ing $#!+ targetting/armour/cover rules in current editions, and because Logan and the chariot already have invulnerable saves, and because the chariot model is much taller than some wolves ......
There is NO WAY AT ALL that a separate unit could possibly have any effect what-so-ever on Logan's durability
-Your enemy is perfectly free to ignore a closer unit
-True-Line-Of-Sight™ means he will be able to see
-The wolves would provide a 5+ cover save which is useless because Logan's own save is better and you can only use one form of save ("cover" is 95% meaningless to a Space Marine army)
-There are no penalties for firing at an obscured target
ClockworkZion wrote: Has anyone tried out the Space Sled at all yet? I've been curious how it stacks up in a game.
I've never used chariots ever. People tell me when it is wrecked the rider dies. If that is the case the sled is terrible!
It wouldn't die as quickly if you toss a couple of shooting fodder Fenrisina wolves with Logan's chariot.. . Not to mention a pack of 15 running just in front of him towards the target >
Logan can't buy any Wolves.
True, but nothing stops the mobile Meat Shield.
If by "Mobile Meat Shield" you men a separate pack of Fenrisian Wolves.... that's useless
Due to the f#$%ing $#!+ targetting/armour/cover rules in current editions, and because Logan and the chariot already have invulnerable saves, and because the chariot model is much taller than some wolves ......
There is NO WAY AT ALL that a separate unit could possibly have any effect what-so-ever on Logan's durability
-Your enemy is perfectly free to ignore a closer unit
-True-Line-Of-Sight™ means he will be able to see
-The wolves would provide a 5+ cover save which is useless because Logan's own save is better and you can only use one form of save ("cover" is 95% meaningless to a Space Marine army)
-There are no penalties for firing at an obscured target
True he will not get a "Cover Save", but you opponent has a choice of Logan on the Pack of Wolves.
Half the shot that hit Logan will be useless, but every Shot fired at Logan is one not fired at the Wolves. 45 attacks is nothing the laugh at
The will also keep him from being Tar-Pitted easy.
Anpu42 wrote: 45 attacks is nothing the laugh at
They will also keep him from being Tar-Pitted easy.
Yes that's true, and there's certainly merit to making a supported attack.
I was just having a bit of a rage about the moronic over-simplicity of certain 40K rules.
To that effect, you can't really call the wolves a "meat shield".... at best they're a "targeting dilemma"
Automatically Appended Next Post: But even then, it's usually a simple case of matching the weapon you're firing to the optimal target.
Fenrisian Wolves and the Logan Sleigh are VERY different targets in terms of weapon effect.
Firing 2 lascannons at the wolves would be pointless
However if you had a flamer, frag missile, rapid firing lasguns etc you're going to get more effect by targettng the wolves
10 wolf guard
5 plasma pistols
3 storm shields
Drop pod + locator beacon
Shoot the crap out of whoever is capable of destroying your drop pod before your turn 2, point the storm shields in the direction of the ap2/3. Next turn and assault with what's left, to tie up whatever can kill your terminators. While the terminators arrive.
Still expensive, but facilitates termi tactics.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually I'm liking that suggestion earlier
10 wolf guard
5 combi-plasmas
Drop pod+locator beacon.
Combis in front as meat shield the rest can assault.
275pts. I'm looking to field wolf guard thunderstrike formation as part of a champions of fenris army.
Yeah I've been giving that formation some thought.
Considering none of them can assault the turn they pod, and considering the get twin-linked on the turn they pod, it really lends itself to shooty formations - both for the PA guys and the TDA guys.
I'd consider sticking with the pistols though, so they can be of some use after turn 1. An expended combi-weapon is not much other than a burden
Automatically Appended Next Post: Depends on your meta though.
I suppose there's always a use for a bunch of rapid firing bolters in your opponent's end zone.... what you have to ask yourself is how these guys make up the points increase over basic Grey Hunters doing the same thing
I'm trying to see the merit in the Thunderstrike and I just can't. Every loadout I come up with is either alpha strike overkill wasted points, or a liability in suicidal points expenditure.
The only thing I can think of is having a Grey Hunter squad with the Wolf Banner landing amidst the Thunderstrike units. This would turn a naked PAWG squad into a pretty mean unit with 5 attacks each on the charge. But to really do it safely you would send the Thunderstrike down on turn 2 and then need to hold back the Grey Hunters for turn 3 so they could land on a turn when assault was viable.
The weapon costs on PAWG just ruin them as an option, really.
Something I just noticed while working on my Synergy Thread [I try to keep a few pages ahead] with The Wolves Unleashed Detachment and Great Company Formation.
You can choose one unit each turn [after the 1st] to Come in out of Reserves. This Grantees Turn-2 Stomwolf Entry.
Fenris Frost wrote: I'm trying to see the merit in the Thunderstrike and I just can't. Every loadout I come up with is either alpha strike overkill wasted points, or a liability in suicidal points expenditure.
The only thing I can think of is having a Grey Hunter squad with the Wolf Banner landing amidst the Thunderstrike units. This would turn a naked PAWG squad into a pretty mean unit with 5 attacks each on the charge. But to really do it safely you would send the Thunderstrike down on turn 2 and then need to hold back the Grey Hunters for turn 3 so they could land on a turn when assault was viable.
The weapon costs on PAWG just ruin them as an option, really.
This is pretty much where I come down on it all too.
There's a couple of differentiating points over Grey Hunters or Blood Claw variants
1) WG have +1 A
2) WG have access to better melee weapons
3) In a "Champions" detachment they have +1 WS over Grey Hunters and +2 WS over Blood Claw variants
4) In terms of shooting, WG can only take combi-weapons.... one-shot only < the proper special weapons of GH or BC 5) WG only ever have 2 weapons (as opposed to Grey Hunters having access to a 3rd weapon)
Bearing that in mind:
1) WG are worse at shooting than Grey Hunters. There's just no situation where 10 WGPA are a more points-efficient shooting option than GH
10 Wolf Guard - 3xCombi Plasma - 210
10 Grey Hunters - WGPL with Combi-plasma, 2xPlasma Gun - 190
Turn 1: GH do the same shooting as WG for 20pts less (or 30pts less for Melta and 40pts less for Flamer)
Turn 2: WG are spent - no special shots left. GH still have 2 special weapons each turn for the rest of the game (or until killed) for 20/30/40 pts less)
2) They have a 16% better chance to hit over Blood Claws, but only get 1 shot per game..... net draw
Therefore the only possible benefit to WGPA is in melee
1) Basic WG is slightly better in melee than a Grey Hunter, but not enough to justify the points - especially when their shooting is worse.
2) Compared to Blood Claws, they have a 16% better chance to hit low-end troops on the charge or an equal chance to hit WS4 - difference is very minor. If combat continues for a 2nd round their odds get a bit better over Blood Claws.... but I'm still not sure it justifies the points differential.
Either way - they can't charge after a deep strike, and take just as long to get up field in other ways, which means much more expensive cannon fodder
So cheap and cheerful Wolf Guard are simply not economical in any way what-so-ever
Therefore, the only possibility left for their effective use is tooling them up to some degree, and this is where it become very tricky.
I just don't see them as a viable "take all comers" option.
You'd have to know your opponent and plan their load-out as a specific counter to what you know your opponent will probably take.
This means...
WGPA in any form are basically a "Beer and Pretzels" unit.
They're great fluff, but only useful in specific situations.
I feel like if you combine say two thunderstrike formations with two voidclaw formations with an extra pod thrown in to get the turn 1 landings that it could be a pretty mean force with a lot of target variety. There would be 4 units of termies plus two pods full of WG. That's a lot to shoot at in one turn. Most will make it through to assault. I feel like it could be viable. The nice thing about thunderstrike plus void claws is that they can all come in on turn one. That's at least my understanding of it.
you would have two close combat units with probably arjac in their somewhere and maybe another character in the other and then two slightly more shooty termi units with two full unit of WG kitted out who would all be twin linked first turn. I think it atleast sounds like fun to try.
Thunderstrike Formation just doesn't work that way unfortunately.
There's a thread in YMDC and to sum up the Thunderstrike special rule only comes into effect if you bring the pod in T2 onwards.
Now, Voidclaws on the other hand give you some great options.
For 240 you have a unit that threatens a lot of targets and you can always attach a TDA or Jump Pack toting HQ to the unit to buff them and increase their threat.
They help you saturate T1 deep strike in conjunction with drop pods, since you get 1 more unit on the table than if you were to use come in with half your pods rounded-up.
Arjac is my top pick for this so far, since he gives them 3++ and the option to try and crack a transport when he lands.
In a higher point game you could also throw in a RP or WP with TDA or jump pack to give them a further boost.
There's a school of thought (that unfortunately I can't see a reason to argue with) that the Void Claws formation doesn't work if you attach a character. If it does, hallelujah, those guys would be in every list I make.
Fenris Frost wrote: There's a school of thought (that unfortunately I can't see a reason to argue with) that the Void Claws formation doesn't work if you attach a character. If it does, hallelujah, those guys would be in every list I make.
Void claws is a unit of 5 with the special ability to alpha strike. ICs don't have the ability to alpha strike. Rules don't state the rule will carry to an IC, so it doesn't. Formations are pretty cut and dry, you bring what the formation says you can and you get a special rule.
This formation is for a unit of at least 5 TDA wolf guard and all have to have one pair of wolf claws. There is no room for any IC in there.
You could always alpha pod your IC in and disembark into the unit. Then when you run you could re-position.
gwarsh41 wrote: Void claws is a unit of 5 with the special ability to alpha strike. ICs don't have the ability to alpha strike. Rules don't state the rule will carry to an IC, so it doesn't. Formations are pretty cut and dry, you bring what the formation says you can and you get a special rule.
This formation is for a unit of at least 5 TDA wolf guard and all have to have one pair of wolf claws. There is no room for any IC in there.
You could always alpha pod your IC in and disembark into the unit. Then when you run you could re-position.
Yeah this is my take on formations as well.
You can add options which are part of the required unit, but you can't add extra units.
e.g. Brethren of the Fell Handed says you must take Bjorn and 2 Ven Dreads. The options are up to you though, so you can give them drop pods (unit upgrade), but not Murderfang.... or another Dreadnought... or an Iron Priest.... or anything else
For what it's worth... here's my take on the formations in Champions of Fenris
Kingsguard Stormforce Flexibility on number and armament of the WGT Flexibility on the LR variant
Good special rules that you can actually make use of
Verdict - Good formation that is tactically flexible
Brethren of the Fell Handed Bjorn is a lot more points effective in this codex
Free to choose armament of other ven dreads, and there are some pretty good options in this codex.
All retain option for drop pods if you want to go aggressive
OK special rules.
Verdict - Good choice if you want to run 3 dreadnoughts
Wolf Guard Void Claws No ranged weapons
No AP2+
No high strength
Can't Assault when they land, and have nothing to shoot
No decent invulnerable save
1 good rule (re-roll future reserves)
1 average rule (re-roll scatter.... but still very vulnerable to mishaps)
1 bad rule (MUST deploy turn 1 - before beacons and maybe before support)
Verdict - Worst formation in the book. Expensive suicide chaff
Grimnar's War Council Not much to be said.
They're all usable characters in this codex.
If you're going to be taking all these characters anyway, and don't need them as mandatory HQ slots it's a no-brainer
I'd field them separately to use as needed, and simply take the +2 the Seize the Initiative
Arjac's Shield Brothers Arjac is a great character
WGT with T.Hammers are a solid choice
LR Crusader is my personal favourite varient
Massive points reduction for this type of unit from the previous codex, now with an amazingly good special rule
Verdict: Possibly the best formation in the book at what they do
Note: It's a shame you couldn't swap the delivery mechanism on this unit for the Void Claws formation. This unit could actually survive the Deep Strike insertion, while giving the protection of a Land Raider to the softer claw guys
Wolf Guard Thunderstrike A bit mis-leading at first glance as most people think to combine the "arrive together" with "drop pod assault" and imagine them all arriving automatically on turn 1
Actual options are:
1) Deploy other Drop Pods turn 1 and then deploy this formation together from reserves
2) Deploy the Drop Pod in the formation on turn 1, preferably with a beacon to assist the Terminator unit deploy accurately on a later turn
Either way, this is still a quite usable formation. Considering the assault limitations of Deep Striking, and the fact the formation's units get Twin Linked on the turn they arrive, I'd go for a more shooty setup.
Combi-weapons and a nice Assault Cannon or Heavy Flamer would work well
Verdict: Not as good as first impressions, but still a good option if used right
The Champions of Fenris Clocking in at around 3000pts this is an expensive formation, probably only intended for Apoc games
There are some nice special rules, but as mentioned above, some liabilities to be carried
I can't see myself using it (even though I have the models to do so) as it is simply too constrained
Best used as part of a much larger force.
If you like playing 5000pt+ battles, give it a crack
I feel like the problem with that analysis though is that your thinking of the units on their own. In my mind formations are meant to be supported in most cases. They just provide an elite force that does something special or is suited to a specific task. VOid claws for instance are not going to be very good if you deep strik them by themselves with nothing else to support them or draw fire. However, as an addition to an alpha strike or a turn 1 pod army they have a lot of potential if you put them against the right kind of targets. especially if you have a large amount of stuff coming in turn 1 where they may not even be first priority. Plus, if you take the formaton multiple times you can have a lot of them coming down turn 1 and against an mostly MEQ or weaker force they are probably going to be pretty devastating. Its easy to shoot up one squad. Not as easy when its three squads you have to clear along with 2 squads of GH in pods or worse, Murderfang and/or a sword and board dread. That's gonna give you 5 targets to choose from, all of which are relatively survivable and threatn a lot of hurt in that next assault phase. Most armies don't have that much ap2 shooting and even the ones that do have to deal with limited shots, range, target selection. You may not be able to just throw them down on the table and claim victory but as a piece of a thought out force I think that they can be one of the best units in the game.
The thing that sucks about the shield brothers is that you have to a) take the land raider which while not being bad doesn't work if you are using a podded and DS army and b) if you do DS them you cant do it until turn two which means no combat until turn 3 at the earliest. meaning that their overall usefulless would be pretty wasted. They are great for an army moving across the board, but they don't really seems to fit any of the more alphastrike/in from reserve playstyles
^Yes this
I am planning on doing a Double [if not triple] Wolves Unleashed Pod List with three Pods each. Adding in Void Claws could put a lot of targets in your opponents backfield with 2 Grey Hunter Packs, a Venerable Dread (with Axe and Shield) and Murderfang along with a bunch of Void Claws could easily overwhelm your enemy.
Random question for you guys. In a drop pod list, would you always chose to take Murderfang over let's say, 4 terminators in a pod, which cost about the same?
Super Newb wrote: Random question for you guys. In a drop pod list, would you always chose to take Murderfang over let's say, 4 terminators in a pod, which cost about the same?
I would choose a 5 man Terminator Pack just for the flexibility and Heavy Weapon.
Id agree, the pack has much more versatility. That said, if you already have some termies and are looking for something special murderfang is a great choice. Sure there is always the chance he can get blown up with a lucky shot but he can wreak some massive havoc in CC. Plus, when he does make it to combat (which in my experience has been more often than I thought he would), He is a lot of fun to play.
Dramagod2 wrote: Id agree, the pack has much more versatility. That said, if you already have some termies and are looking for something special murderfang is a great choice. Sure there is always the chance he can get blown up with a lucky shot but he can wreak some massive havoc in CC. Plus, when he does make it to combat (which in my experience has been more often than I thought he would), He is a lot of fun to play.
True
With Murderfang he does work best with Pod Saturation. I would at least drop him with 2 other Pods.
For me that would be Murderfang, 1-2 Packs of Grey Hunters, 1-2 Dreads and/or 1-2 Packs of Wolf Guard.
Super Newb wrote: Random question for you guys. In a drop pod list, would you always chose to take Murderfang over let's say, 4 terminators in a pod, which cost about the same?
I would choose a 5 man Terminator Pack just for the flexibility and Heavy Weapon.
Go all out, 9 dreadnought army.
Bjorn + 8 dreadnoughts of choice and like 5 drop pods. Once I get the new Bjorn, and my FW ven dread arrives, I will be be up 5 dreads including my contemptor. Should be a nice start to a fun army.
Super Newb wrote: Random question for you guys. In a drop pod list, would you always chose to take Murderfang over let's say, 4 terminators in a pod, which cost about the same?
I would choose a 5 man Terminator Pack just for the flexibility and Heavy Weapon.
But then the price isn't the same.
Unless you are going fluffy or for a 1st turn Mass Drop Pod Assault the 5 man Pack is worth the extra points. He is not as efficient as the Terminators in the long run. (I don't believe I just said that)
I know this is a rule question but does having two master crafted lightning claws things allow murderfang to reroll two attack since it's two weapons, or just one?
Having played several games since the book's release I have to say I struggle with hordes of bodies and am not quite sure what in the book remedies this. Ulrik is an awesome HQ, especially for Drop Plasma hunters.
I really want to find some way to use Arjac's Shieldbrothers. That toughness 5 is just too sweet.
Well any marine army would struggle going up against a super horde. However, Grey Hunters are pretty cheap and pretty beefy. Having a bunch of those yourself could deal with hordes ok...
Super Newb wrote: Well any marine army would struggle going up against a super horde. However, Grey Hunters are pretty cheap and pretty beefy. Having a bunch of those yourself could deal with hordes ok...
Thunderfires excel at stomping hordes though.
Could try using some SM allies to grab a Thunderfire, but honestly the Grey Hunter suggestion will probably work better. Thunderfires work best in (at least) pairs, and you can only get 1 via allies.
Super Newb wrote: Well any marine army would struggle going up against a super horde. However, Grey Hunters are pretty cheap and pretty beefy. Having a bunch of those yourself could deal with hordes ok...
Thunderfires excel at stomping hordes though.
Could try using some SM allies to grab a Thunderfire, but honestly the Grey Hunter suggestion will probably work better. Thunderfires work best in (at least) pairs, and you can only get 1 via allies.
Don't forget about Whirlwinds. They deal well with large units.
I actually run full drop pods, including a deathstorm, but it just isn't enough. About 60 grey hunters, plasma & melta, deathstorm, fire raptor. Couldn't beat the 100+ ork boy horde.
Is the WGBL entry allowing a stormshield for 25 points considered a typo or irrelevant? It seems weird since they're allowed weapons from the melee list which would be a 15 point shield or a free one as a terminator.
I was looking at running a WGBL as the tank for my thunderwolf cavalry unit with either the armor of russ or runic armor and a stormshield. If you have to pay the higher cost for some reason, it would definitely make the choice easier.
lessthanjeff wrote: Is the WGBL entry allowing a stormshield for 25 points considered a typo or irrelevant? It seems weird since they're allowed weapons from the melee list which would be a 15 point shield or a free one as a terminator.
I was looking at running a WGBL as the tank for my thunderwolf cavalry unit with either the armor of russ or runic armor and a stormshield. If you have to pay the higher cost for some reason, it would definitely make the choice easier.
lessthanjeff wrote: Is the WGBL entry allowing a stormshield for 25 points considered a typo or irrelevant? It seems weird since they're allowed weapons from the melee list which would be a 15 point shield or a free one as a terminator.
I was looking at running a WGBL as the tank for my thunderwolf cavalry unit with either the armor of russ or runic armor and a stormshield. If you have to pay the higher cost for some reason, it would definitely make the choice easier.
It is probably a typo
I dunno, I think it's intentional so you can take a gun and a storm shield if you want to, or maybe an alternate melee weapon.
I suppose that could be it, but then it also makes it weird that the Wolf Lord has the same line in his profile but can get it for 15 points. Usually the characters with more wounds pay more for things like terminator armor, not less. It seems like something weird happened there, but I guess it is what it is.
Tactics-wise, is running Long Fangs with a terminator leader holding a storm shield pretty effective for tanking shots or should I look at running a bunker? I liked the idea of a couple squads of long fangs sitting back with Ulrik for preferred enemy. Alternatively, I was thinking the bunker might be the better option if I only wanted 1 long fang squad then set it up with ammo stores and void shields.
The Wolf Lord gets it for 15 because he comes with a 4++ so it is less valuable than the WGBL.
Bunker or Bastion is cheaper and probably better. You can get a Bastion/Bunker with Ammo Dump and Void pretty cheap and then you don't need to keep Ulrik back.
pretre wrote: The Wolf Lord gets it for 15 because he comes with a 4++ so it is less valuable than the WGBL.
Bunker or Bastion is cheaper and probably better. You can get a Bastion/Bunker with Ammo Dump and Void pretty cheap and then you don't need to keep Ulrik back.
Good point on the invulnerable save for wolf lords, I keep forgetting they come with that.
For the long fangs, only one unit would get the protection and rerolls from the bunker or bastion though, right? I've only run an ADL before, so I'm not well versed in fortification tactics and rules. I believe one unit can be inside and another on top but that would just give the top unit the cover save as far as I know. I could also see a quad gun for the wolf leader being valuable thanks to split fire if bunkers are generally tough enough without void shields though.
The ammo dump is an external item, so anyone within 2 or 3 of it gets it. So not the group on top, but the group inside and anything else you put within range.
Battlements are protected by the Void Shield as well.
pretre wrote: The ammo dump is an external item, so anyone within 2 or 3 of it gets it. So not the group on top, but the group inside and anything else you put within range.
Ammo Dump is actually "BATTLEMENTS & BATTLEFIELD" so they certainly can be placed so they assist the group up top.
There's also an "AMMO STORE" for 5 pts cheaper, but it only effects the unit inside the building
pretre wrote: The ammo dump is an external item, so anyone within 2 or 3 of it gets it. So not the group on top, but the group inside and anything else you put within range.
Ammo Dump is actually "BATTLEMENTS & BATTLEFIELD" so they certainly can be placed so they assist the group up top.
There's also an "AMMO STORE" for 5 pts cheaper, but it only effects the unit inside the building
You know, I hadn't thought about that. You could place it in the center of the battlements. Good call!
Ok, so now I have Herald Deathwolf on the way, and I managed to get the DA Ravenwing command squad power maul bits (pick axes or whatever and 2 baseball bats) I plan on running herald with 3-4 power maul TWC, character and another with storm shield, the other two with bolt pistols.
The unit will put out ~20 S8 rending hits at I4, then herald will follow up with some I2 S8 ap2 hits on the charge. This unit should be able to handle itself against just about anything and everything. What I am curious about though, is how it fairs mathematically against wolf claws.
Against armor, power mauls will win, S8 on charge lets me pen a land raider on a 6 (thank you rending!) where as claws will only auto glance on a 6 with a good chance for a pen.
Against marines, claws will win, ap3 is just going to go to town. Shred will have them wound as much, if not more than mauls, however the mauls can instagib stuff like Khorne dogs.
The more I think about it, the more it seems the mauls will only beat claws in a few situations, fighting daemons for example.Shred with ap3 and rending is just so awesome. Why couldn't we get frost/wolf mauls that were +3 strength? (aside from it being silly powerful)
gwarsh41 wrote: Ok, so now I have Herald Deathwolf on the way, and I managed to get the DA Ravenwing command squad power maul bits (pick axes or whatever and 2 baseball bats) I plan on running herald with 3-4 power maul TWC, character and another with storm shield, the other two with bolt pistols.
The unit will put out ~20 S8 rending hits at I4, then herald will follow up with some I2 S8 ap2 hits on the charge. This unit should be able to handle itself against just about anything and everything. What I am curious about though, is how it fairs mathematically against wolf claws.
Against armor, power mauls will win, S8 on charge lets me pen a land raider on a 6 (thank you rending!) where as claws will only auto glance on a 6 with a good chance for a pen.
Against marines, claws will win, ap3 is just going to go to town. Shred will have them wound as much, if not more than mauls, however the mauls can instagib stuff like Khorne dogs.
The more I think about it, the more it seems the mauls will only beat claws in a few situations, fighting daemons for example.Shred with ap3 and rending is just so awesome. Why couldn't we get frost/wolf mauls that were +3 strength? (aside from it being silly powerful)
I have been using the Picks as Power Axes and the Clubs as Mauls.
Ok, I finally got to take on a Non-Marine army last knight, Dark Eldar. It was a pair of small 700 games.
The only issue I had (And I think part of it was the small size of the game that made this an issue) was his Warlord was AP3, I7, Lots of Attacks. So he pretty much would run up to a squad, Kill off of the WGPL before I got the chance to do anything and then on I5 the rest of the Squad would finish off the rest with there Power Swords. This was the patter of the first game.
The Second Game my Rune Priest managed to get Precognition and when My Blood Claws engaged the same Warlord if fed him my WGPL with a Frost Blade and Storm Shield. Well for the rest of the game he could not fail his 2+ Save and my 3++ with Re-Roll Save just continued to Cycle in Circles.
So I decided to go with a Strom Shield and a AP2 Weapon for dealing with 2+ Saves, the choices are:
>Frost Axe
>Power Axe
>Power Fist
gausus wrote: The best idea is to use a Power Fist and a storm shield. There is one more evil combo - PF+WC+Armour of Russ/Belt of Russ.
Also, Black Death and Krakenbone Fang works great.
Well this if for the WGPL so I think I will be going for the Power Fist, unless I take Terminator Armor, then just a Axe.
I had though about a Thunder Hammer for the Concussive effect, but the ID effect makes it better to just take Power Fist.
pretre wrote: Precog only works on the caster, not the unit.
That really needs to be bolded, when ever that comes up. I and my Opponent completely forget it every time.
I know when I get my hard copy I am bringing out the High-lighter.
SublimeShadow wrote: Having played several games since the book's release I have to say I struggle with hordes of bodies and am not quite sure what in the book remedies this. Ulrik is an awesome HQ, especially for Drop Plasma hunters.
I really want to find some way to use Arjac's Shieldbrothers. That toughness 5 is just too sweet.
Lets not forget about the S6 ap3 pie plate from the stormfang gunship, with two and a pack of longfangs (all with ML) you can handle a horde army, or you cand drop one and spam small blast weapons, 3 packs of longfangs with Ml and one plasma cannon could make the work, maybe you coud get two runepries with adivination and look for the ignore cover power
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a side note, today i played a 1500 points game, my list was something like this
WGBL: thuderwolve, frost sword, runic armour and storm shield
Wolf priest: runic armour and bike
Dreadnought:Venerable, shield and axe, drop pod (with locator beacon)
Grey hunters x10: 2 meltas and WG with combi melta, drop pod
Grey hunters x10: 2 plasmas and Wg with combiplasma
Thuderwolf calvar x3: 2 SS, 2 wolfclaws and one thunder hammer
Long fangs x4: 3 ML, 1 lascannon
Long fangs x4: 3 ML, 1 plasma cannon
I learned two thigns from this game:
1 Astra militarum became a good army with the new codex
2 Two tanks commanders (with their squads) hit like bricks
My oponent begin, in the firts turn he manage to kill one pack of lonag fangs and to cripple my wolf calvary (he kill one, and wound other) and with the salvo from his 2 wyrms (even the storm shard is S4, with shred i consider it as a respectable weapon), with so little on the field, the posibilitys of being tabled on turn one was so high, but lady luck wacht over me that firts turn and my opponent faild to destroy my rhino with his battle cannonshis, on my turn one my drop pod fall with the star of the game, my dread, he just land ther in front of his gunline, in his turn 2 manage to strip two hull points from my dread, after he shoot everything he had, EVERYTHING, oh and i forget to mention he had one Punisher with Pask, my dread survived a comple turn of astra militarum shooting fase, the next my dread proceed to cripple one unit of tanks on CC; saddly we couldnt finish the game, but i learn another thing from this game:
Spacewolves Venerable dreadnoughts are really badasses
PD: again, pardon the bad grammar, long night shift at work
Was just musing last night at work and realized a book legal Champions of Fenris detachment could be made from 12 independent characters riding thunder wolves.
Jefffar wrote: Was just musing last night at work and realized a book legal Champions of Fenris detachment could be made from 12 independent characters riding thunder wolves.
Jefffar wrote: Was just musing last night at work and realized a book legal Champions of Fenris detachment could be made from 12 independent characters riding thunder wolves.
Jefffar wrote: Was just musing last night at work and realized a book legal Champions of Fenris detachment could be made from 12 independent characters riding thunder wolves.
Yeah, this book is excellent for wacky armies.
Yes, I was cackling at the idea if a unit with 17 thunderwolves, 32 cyberwolves and 8 fenrisian wolves loping across the table to multi-chsrge the gak out of a gunline.
I know it's a bit odd, but I've been giving the Rune Priest a lot of thought, since he ends up being my leftover points-filler a lot of the time.
It seems like a good plan is to get a lot of low-cost Witchfires, so that he becomes more effective with less dice. Tempestas has a decent chance but I have been looking more and more at Telekinesis.
I know...not that great. But hear me out!
First -- four out of the six powers are witchfires.
The Primaris is an 18" Strength 6 beam with Strikedown. Strikedown can make a whole unit have to move as though in difficult terrain even though it only technically affects one model. It also works one models that suffer one or more unsaved wounds, or passes one or more saves -- which basically means all you have to do is hit and wound and regardless of the outcome you can get that perk. As a beam with 18" it can also get a decent number of hits on a unit that wound most of the time on 2's or 3's.
Okay so the primaris is a decent Warp Charge 1 power. What about the rest?
Crush isn't that good, but it has merit as an added shot, being also only Warp Charge 1. The average is Strength 7 AP4, I believe, which isn't too bad (and could double out a T3 target with a little luck).
Objuration Mechanicum is Warp Charge 1 and has 24 inch range, and can basically make it very dangerous for many super-shooty units to shoot. Anything with a lot of shots will mangle itself to death firing with the Gets Hot rule, more than likely (I'm thinking Guard blobs, big Ork units, etc). If it's a vehicle, you get a free Haywire roll for your trouble as well. This may be a good way to shut down flyers if they are viable targets. It can really hinder AM's Tank Commander units, too -- and gives a Haywire hit for each vehicle in the squadron where applicable, remember.
Shockwave isn't much, but with a good roll on the 2d6, you can probably make a decent impact among the T3 armies out there. Low leadership will probably get hit bad by the pinning effect as well. And again -- Warp Charge 1. So in theory if you rolled 2 and 3 for powers as an ML2 Rune Priest, you could use Shockwave, Objuration, and the Primaris.
Levitation is a bit meh, but it has a benefit in that the unit "immediately" makes a move of 12". So you can potentially add a big range to your movement if you end up with this one.
Telekine Dome is very expensive, but combined with Levitation you could probably turn a footslogging unit into a decent speed threat and give them some added survivabiliy if the shots come in with decent AP against you.
Psychic Maelstrom is a Strength 10 AP1 Large Blast with Barrage for 2 WC. Okay...so you don't need to see the target, thanks to barrage, and it doubles out quite a lot of the games' tougher candidates (Bike and T-wolf Characters). It will split open tanks in a pinch, too.
The ideal combo to me seems to be Psychic Maelstrom with Assail and Shockwave as follow-ups. Nothing major, but decent damage output, compared to Tempestas anyway. What do you all think?
Honestly, I'm really disliking Rune Priests right now, although it's more to do with the unreliability of psychic powers in 7th ed, rather than anything to do with the Priests themselves. I'm still finding Divination to be my go-to discipline, but Ulrik or a Wolf Priest are so much more reliable and effective for force multiplication, albeit at a higher cost.
I'm in the same boat. I only use the Rune Priest to fill points. Frankly I'd find even a Whirlwind better to use, but I don't own one and am working with what I've got at the moment.
Taking him just to stick a 2+ save at the front of my Long Fang unit for a local tourney, I ended up getting frustrated with my Blood Claws and Wolf Lord for wasting most of the tourney inside a Stormwolf. For the last round, I put the Priest with the Claws and walked, and put the Lord with Thunderwolves and walked. It was surprisingly effective, oddly -- both units had a 2+ to tank but both were very cost effective due to not being T-wolf characters and being cheap.
It made me briefly, briefly consider walking Terminators instead of the Blood Claws, but frankly, I'm pretty sure more bodies is the better choice when doing something so foolish. But in that last round I went Tempestas just because I didn't like an ML2 primaris with Divination, and ended up getting witchfires. It made him pretty decent but the Tempestas Witchfires are very situational and somewhat lame, so I started looking at other witchfire-heavy disciplines we could take and came up with that breakdown. That most of it is ML1 makes it much more consistent.
I'm probably going to give it a try at some point, I'll report the findings.
Dozer Blades wrote: I like the Rune Priest for psychic defense. Biomancy can work for WolfStar if you roll up Endurance.
That's a big if... And even then, you have to dedicate most, if not all, of your Warp Charges to get off the power. Maybe I'm just getting unlucky, but if I really need a power to go off, I find that 2 warp charges is still too risky, but more charges mean less of other buffs (...obviously). Rune Priests have just lost a ton of reliability for me.
Psychic Maelstrom is WC3. I've never successfully cast it. Objuration Mechanicum is awesome though. And so is levitation. That extra 12" can really come in handy.
Prescience going to WC2 is a major blow.
I'm not really sure what to do with my Rune Priests at the moment.
I guess I was always a bit more of a fan of Wolf Priests anyway, but RPs being so cheap now is a tease
Put a naked Rune Priest in a pod with Helm of Durfast his only upgrade. Roll on Tempestas and keep what you get for an off-chance that you'll use it. You get Living Lightning, which is now 3 TL S7 shots at 18" inches that Ignores Cover. Aimed at a Serpent's butt, it actually has a reasonable chance it'll die from one turn of shooting. Add an Ignores Cover combi-melta if you have the points.
Or put two RPs on bikes, give them ML2 and Runic Armour. Roll on Biomancy. Most powers in there are useful, but with 4 rolls, you're likely to get Endurance or Iron Arm. First one means EW, 4+ FNP unit of TWC, the second one means an I4, S9 AP2, ID Runic Stave on a T8 model, which is hilariously effective. Imagine attaching a WL to an Iron Arm RP. Now you have 6 2+ T8 wounds that you need to kill. Making it even worse than a WK when trying to take it down.
I don't know about whacky, but for a competitive list 1850, I'm looking at 2 RPs, a Thunderlord, Harald, 2 Iron Priests on TWC with 4 Cyberwolves each, 6 TWC, a screen of 30 Fenrisian Wolves and 2 squads of WG bikers with combi-meltas for support of the "deathstar". It isn't really a deathstar, since it'll never stick together from T2 onwards and it can't really be dealt with how you usually deal with deathstars. Tarpit or ignore won't work, and there's few armies that can deal with 60+ models, half of which T5 and with multiple 2+ tanks in front in their deployment zone T1. No AA defense, but with the aggresive style of the list, you don't really need it.
Both of what Araenion mentioned are what I plan on doing with my RP. If I run a slog pod army, I will take tempestus with helm, right now I am making a biker RP for biomancy with my TWC, possibly also with helm. Ignore cover wont be as good, but if you get iron arm or warp speed with reroll hits, it will be awesome.
Could be hilarious to have an army in just special characters in a single unit. Roll up with something like 2 biker biomancy priests, wolf priest and wolf lord then some iron priests. If you can go multiple force org, run a few great wolf detachments and you end up with a super death star! Just hope against all hell you can get endurance so the unit cant be insta gibbed.
I'm not sure I would consider all that as foolproof as it seems on paper, just because psychic powers really don't go off as reliably as they used to.
Mass buff chaining seems like a lot to hope for. They are likely to wound themselves pretty much every game and on a 2-wound model with a crap invul I'm not sure I want to be throwing 4-6 dice at my one MUST HAVE power.
Here's a good topic for the thread, though -- assuming a Rune Priest and one upgrade or so, what else can we do with those points that might be comparable? I briefly considered four "blood claw" Lone Wolves just for hilariousness' sake. And a Whirlwind seemed like it would have a more consistent but less severe impact on a game.
IMO once the Priest gets above 70 or 80 points the entire point is lost and you might as well take a WGBL or Wolf Priest instead at that point.
I'm not relying on buffs in that army, since S10 can easily be LOS'd to cyberwolves, EW isn't crucial. Another way to play this would be two Wolf Priests on a bike and meltas switched for plasmas on the bikes. Or one Wolf and one Rune Priest.
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Yes!
