So now that everyone has the new codex what changes can people see from the old dex that opens up some new tactics/combos.
I have noticed:
Skyclaws can now have 2 special weapons. May be good for a rapid AT unit.
Longfang no longer MUST have a heavy weapon, so taking a few meat shields for a terminator to LOS to might be viable.
or for 75 points you can drop a long fang leader and 1 long fang, in a pod with a melta gun. Cheap alpha strike anti Tank
I have already been running 15 blood claws (including lucas) with a wolf priest in a LRC, this combo just got 107 points cheaper. It hit like a ton of bricks, so now it will hit like a ton of bricks only cheaper swap the LRC for a stormwolf and thats another 45 points cheaper (have a MM on LRC)
These are just the thing that have jumped out from quickly flicking through the dex.
Solo rune priests in pods to supplement a mass grey hunter drop. I hashed out 9 pods at 1500 rocking two helfrost dreads, Murderfang, 40 hunters, and two priests. Drop the priest pod near some hunters so he can join them upon disembark.
TWC are amazing now, especially being cheaper and cheaper storm shields.
Drop pod armies are even more legit now, especially as allied armies.
Is this the way space wolf builds are going though? Full of T 5 3++ close combat units?
Or being used as allies only for another imperial unit in one of their drop pods?
Are combi-wolf guard viable now? With the price increase to combi weapons, and the minimum of 5 in a squad of power armoured wolf guard they just went to 175 for 5 guys in a pod.
What about Heavy support options? Are long fangs still priced well enough to take, or has the codex opened up other options such as Stormfang and Whirlwind?
What are peoples opinions on the relics? What uses can they fill?
Armour of russ:
A wolf lord already has a 4++ you would only be taking it for its -5 inititive? It would probably be better point efficiency on a battle leader.
On a rune priest would be the best bet I reckon though. Gets him a better save than power armour, you could pay 25 points for a 2+ 5/6++ or another 10 points for a 4++ and -5 Init. Couple that with runic weapon, force and maybe Biomancy powers and you could get a decent close combat runepriest, able to take on MC and HQ characters.
Bite of Fenris:
You would be paying 10 points for a combi-weapon, so 10 points is rather good for it. Str 5 AP 4 ignores cover is not to be laughed at.
Black Death:
If you were planning on taking a frost axe the extra 5 point investment in this would be worth it. Providing you are planning on charging a numerically superior enemy.
Helm of Durfast:
Re-roll to hits and Ignores cover shooting for 20 points? Seeing as best this could be used on a combi-weapon or plasma pistol, maybe shooting psychic powers I am not to sure on this relic.
Anyone have any combo's for it?
Fangsword of the icewolf (there is GW great naming conventions again)
Helfrost and rending on a frost sword for 5 extra points, yes please coupled with furios charge from wulfenstone or formation and you have a chance for str 6 AP2 at inititive. Or use it for taking on MC's, with a chance of rending and Helfrost death.
Wulfenstone.
I could see this on a wolf priest, leading blood claws or sky claws, or wolf guard terminators with wolf claws/power weapons to get str 5 and 6 on the charge, coupled with preferred enemy
Interestingly if you put the Armour of russ, Black death, helm of durfast and wulfenstone on a wolf lord with thunderwolf you get a
2+ 4++ save, Toughnes 5, with re-rollable 8-11 attacks on the charge at str 8 AP 2, rending for only *drumroll* 275 points!
Got to give that a try
Armor of Russ. I'd leave this one at home - the only models who truly benefit from it usually have a low enough wound count to require a Thunderwolf for fluffed up wounds, which causes point costs to rise really quickly. Anything that depends on Challenges I'm very weary about using, since a simple "no" from your enemy negates its effectiveness outright. Yes, it could may make a rune priest good in CC, but Wolf Lords already are.
Bite is nice, but not the ignore cover AP4 version (which is excellent), but for the cheap investment required to hinge for a Helfrost failure. Still, I'd likely leave it at home. It lacks for alpha potential (primary use for shooting Wolves) and finds itself oddly placed for a CC-oriented list.
Black Death is gorgeous. Love it, love it, love it. Slap it on a Thunderwolf Lord and shove him in with Cavalry. This is designed to kill infantry, and a lot of it. Not 100% certain, but the wording of the weapon reads as simply having it granting the +3A benefit. Possibility of using it as a 25pt +3A for the Thunderwolf's rending.
Helm of Durfast is a bit undersold. It allows re-rolls of all to-hits (CC and shooting), plus gives shooting ignore cover. I'll ignore the second part, because a Thunderwolf Lord rocking 6-10 attacks on the charge loves the ability to re-roll them. Especially if he's using ->
Fangsword of the Icewolf. Re-rolls get better the more potential there exists for re-rolls. Sword and pistol pushes a Thunderwolf Lord to a staggering six attacks base at Str6 Rending with I5. Seven on the charge. Re-rolling to hit with the above makes this utterly insane, and the loadout clocks in at 200pts.
Wulfenstone. Many uses for this gem. Wolf Priests make great carriers, for multiple reasons. Stick him in a Blood Claw blob, ruin something in assault. You do run the risk of overkill and leaving yourself exposed to shooting thereafter, but the relatively low cost of Blood Claws and built in 6+ FNP conferred by the Priests helps mitigate return fire quite a bit. Toss him in the beloved 50man melee Guard blob for fantastic benefits. ATSKNF, 6+ FNP, Fearless, Hatred, Furious Charge, and a preferred enemy of your chosen unit type all rolled up in one. Absolutely phenomenal. Alternatively, use this item greedily to bump a Thunderwolf Lord to 8 attacks on the charge at Str 6-7 depending on weapon choice, and shove his retinue to similar levels.
Absolutely nowhere. The wording, for example, under a Wolf Lord dictates that he may take items from the Relics of the Fang list. This list dictates that one may be taken per army, and a model may replace one weapon with one of the following. This wording causes some debate in the Space Marine book (if a character has multiple weapons, can he replace multiple weapons?) but this is avoided in the Wolf book, because Helm of Durfast, Wulfenstone, and The Armor of Russ all have a notation stating that they do not replace a weapon.
^ If your referring to the Relics page...mine says nothing about replacing a weapon...mine reads "Only one of each Relic of the Fang may be taken per army" period. No line after.
Wolf Lords page say they may take items (plural) from the relics page...so no, you may take as many relics as you want on a single character, you just cant duplicate
Strasgard wrote: ^ If your referring to the Relics page...mine says nothing about replacing a weapon...mine reads "Only one of each Relic of the Fang may be taken per army" period. No line after.
Wolf Lords page say they may take items (plural) from the relics page...so no, you may take as many relics as you want on a single character, you just cant duplicate
It's the price page in the basic codex (pg47) It doesn't seem to limit to 1 though, I mean it says the same thing for replacing melee/ranged weapons
Is this the way space wolf builds are going though? Full of T 5 3++ close combat units?
Some people are, because everyone(despite complaints) seems to like thunderwolves and so them becoming viable makes people happy
Or being used as allies only for another imperial unit in one of their drop pods?
This is just one use, they have merit on their own but they make a lot of units viable that weren't before
Are combi-wolf guard viable now? With the price increase to combi weapons, and the minimum of 5 in a squad of power armoured wolf guard they just went to 175 for 5 guys in a pod.
I think they have their place, however don't know about running many of them unless you run the champions of fenris formation
What about Heavy support options? Are long fangs still priced well enough to take, or has the codex opened up other options such as Stormfang and Whirlwind?
I think long fangs also have their place, however the missile kit out isnt the way to go, more like lascannons imo(especially with above ulrik bubble on 2-3 units of them) I would personally only ever take the transport version of the flier because now you have a OS flier that can hover(and thus score) Also friends dont let friends take whirlwinds, they are a low point game option in the book but worthless otherwise
What are peoples opinions on the relics? What uses can they fill?
I think they all have uses other than the helfrost gun
Armour of russ:
A wolf lord already has a 4++ you would only be taking it for its -5 inititive? It would probably be better point efficiency on a battle leader.
Remember you are going to be buying runic anyway, so its really only 15 points for -5 init. With how challenges work since you can allocate attacks to people in challenges now, it brings a daemon prince down to 4, a wraithknight down to 1, so on and so forth which means that it is possible that the rest of the squad will kill stuff enough to bleed over to the challenge before the guy even strikes. Offers some options to reduce the damage you take in combat.
On a rune priest would be the best bet I reckon though. Gets him a better save than power armour, you could pay 25 points for a 2+ 5/6++ or another 10 points for a 4++ and -5 Init. Couple that with runic weapon, force and maybe Biomancy powers and you could get a decent close combat runepriest, able to take on MC and HQ characters.
It could work that way, but the thing about saves is that the more wounds the model has the more efficient it gets. So a rune priest with 2 wounds versus a lord with 5 wounds(on T wolf)
Bite of Fenris:
You would be paying 10 points for a combi-weapon, so 10 points is rather good for it. Str 5 AP 4 ignores cover is not to be laughed at.
Black Death:
If you were planning on taking a frost axe the extra 5 point investment in this would be worth it. Providing you are planning on charging a numerically superior enemy.
No brainer over a frost axe
Helm of Durfast:
Re-roll to hits and Ignores cover shooting for 20 points? Seeing as best this could be used on a combi-weapon or plasma pistol, maybe shooting psychic powers I am not to sure on this relic.
Anyone have any combo's for it?
If I was not running mine with a chaplain I would run this on a lord with the black death, you are going to have enough attacks/fighting characters that it is worth it for the re-rolls
Fangsword of the icewolf (there is GW great naming conventions again)
Helfrost and rending on a frost sword for 5 extra points, yes please coupled with furios charge from wulfenstone or formation and you have a chance for str 6 AP2 at inititive. Or use it for taking on MC's, with a chance of rending and Helfrost death.
Wulfenstone.
I could see this on a wolf priest, leading blood claws or sky claws, or wolf guard terminators with wolf claws/power weapons to get str 5 and 6 on the charge, coupled with preferred enemy
Bit pricy, there are few units that it would be worth it(that are not large) where it would be worth it over additional models
Interestingly if you put the Armour of russ, Black death, helm of durfast and wulfenstone on a wolf lord with thunderwolf you get a
2+ 4++ save, Toughnes 5, with re-rollable 8-11 attacks on the charge at str 8 AP 2, rending for only *drumroll* 275 points!
Got to give that a try .........I like it
I think you made a lot of solid points and here or my thoughts on most of them
Armour of russ:
A wolf lord already has a 4++ you would only be taking it for its -5 inititive? It would probably be better point efficiency on a battle leader.
Remember you are going to be buying runic anyway, so its really only 15 points for -5 init. With how challenges work since you can allocate attacks to people in challenges now, it brings a daemon prince down to 4, a wraithknight down to 1, so on and so forth which means that it is possible that the rest of the squad will kill stuff enough to bleed over to the challenge before the guy even strikes. Offers some options to reduce the damage you take in combat.
Hadn't even thought about that. You could put it on a rune priest or some other, not super awesome combat monster. As long as his unit is capable of murdering their targets at initiative you can use him in a challenge to slow down the enemy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The shooting attacks ignore cover part of the helm... does that include witchfires? Because otherwise, I can't think of someone who can take it that's firing more than like a single plasma pistol shot.
Armour of russ:
A wolf lord already has a 4++ you would only be taking it for its -5 inititive? It would probably be better point efficiency on a battle leader.
Remember you are going to be buying runic anyway, so its really only 15 points for -5 init. With how challenges work since you can allocate attacks to people in challenges now, it brings a daemon prince down to 4, a wraithknight down to 1, so on and so forth which means that it is possible that the rest of the squad will kill stuff enough to bleed over to the challenge before the guy even strikes. Offers some options to reduce the damage you take in combat.
Hadn't even thought about that. You could put it on a rune priest or some other, not super awesome combat monster. As long as his unit is capable of murdering their targets at initiative you can use him in a challenge to slow down the enemy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The shooting attacks ignore cover part of the helm... does that include witchfires? Because otherwise, I can't think of someone who can take it that's firing more than like a single plasma pistol shot.
It does say shooting attacks, so right now I would say yes......which means it works pretty well with a biomancy, re-rolling hits on ignore cover smite, very nice. Also could always throw someone on a quad gun or icarus with it as well.....
Armor of Russ. I'd leave this one at home - the only models who truly benefit from it usually have a low enough wound count to require a Thunderwolf for fluffed up wounds, which causes point costs to rise really quickly. Anything that depends on Challenges I'm very weary about using, since a simple "no" from your enemy negates its effectiveness outright. Yes, it could may make a rune priest good in CC, but Wolf Lords already are.
Bite is nice, but not the ignore cover AP4 version (which is excellent), but for the cheap investment required to hinge for a Helfrost failure. Still, I'd likely leave it at home. It lacks for alpha potential (primary use for shooting Wolves) and finds itself oddly placed for a CC-oriented list.
Black Death is gorgeous. Love it, love it, love it. Slap it on a Thunderwolf Lord and shove him in with Cavalry. This is designed to kill infantry, and a lot of it. Not 100% certain, but the wording of the weapon reads as simply having it granting the +3A benefit. Possibility of using it as a 25pt +3A for the Thunderwolf's rending.
Helm of Durfast is a bit undersold. It allows re-rolls of all to-hits (CC and shooting), plus gives shooting ignore cover. I'll ignore the second part, because a Thunderwolf Lord rocking 6-10 attacks on the charge loves the ability to re-roll them. Especially if he's using ->
Fangsword of the Icewolf. Re-rolls get better the more potential there exists for re-rolls. Sword and pistol pushes a Thunderwolf Lord to a staggering six attacks base at Str6 Rending with I5. Seven on the charge. Re-rolling to hit with the above makes this utterly insane, and the loadout clocks in at 200pts.
Wulfenstone. Many uses for this gem. Wolf Priests make great carriers, for multiple reasons. Stick him in a Blood Claw blob, ruin something in assault. You do run the risk of overkill and leaving yourself exposed to shooting thereafter, but the relatively low cost of Blood Claws and built in 6+ FNP conferred by the Priests helps mitigate return fire quite a bit. Toss him in the beloved 50man melee Guard blob for fantastic benefits. ATSKNF, 6+ FNP, Fearless, Hatred, Furious Charge, and a preferred enemy of your chosen unit type all rolled up in one. Absolutely phenomenal. Alternatively, use this item greedily to bump a Thunderwolf Lord to 8 attacks on the charge at Str 6-7 depending on weapon choice, and shove his retinue to similar levels.
I normally take a 2+ armour option on a rune priest for added survivability, so the extra 10 points for a 4++ is a pretty good price.
Chances on the hellfrost rounds actually doing something useful is really remote, but I have also used the old Jotww on wraithknights in the 1 in a million chance of taking them out (which has happened ) Who would be the best to equip it on then?
I'm debating on putting WG on bikes/Jump Packs as they take up an Elite slot (though could be pricey). Having skyclaws for bullet shields and then the TWC bringing up the hammer.
I think the armor of russ is one of the top relics.
Considering that saga of the bear is now pretty lackluster, a lot of us are worried about our fancy TWC lords dying before they get their +6 swings off, so you pop on that armor and boom, virtually every enemy is striking at I1. All the big fancy single modes, like daemon princes and greater daemons, are now striking at the same time, if not after the rest of your TWC. Allowing you the chance to slaughter it. Only initiative 10 baddies will not care about this, and that is only if you put an unwieldy weapon on your lord. Give them a wolf claw or something and he will strike before, if not at the same time as every model in the game.
The beef I have with the armor, is every model I think to put it on, already has a ++4 save, so I feel like I am wasting points in a sense. WGBL and iron priest dont, but they lack the wounds to make that kind of investment, and the iron priest already has a +2 save.
The helm seems like it could be good on a rune priest. If you want to try out tempestus it could be nice, or roll around on a bike with biomancy. Re-rolls/ignore cover on smite and potentially life leech could be pretty nice. Have him cruise around with TWC or wolf gaurd bikers, who seem to be pretty nice now. Rune priest on bike with tempestus getting the shrouded ability would give bikers a +2 jink save, only a 1/3 chance to get it though, so that stinks. If you can take 2 relics per dude, rune priest with armor and hat with ML2 biomancy seems pretty nice on a bike.
Wolfcup seems like it is just a nice deathstar addon, but when I start putting points to paper on who will carry it, I find that for TWC, the character is better, and even blackmane seems to be nice on food for a furious charge buffer to a big BC pack.
Regarding the black death what does everyone think of this combo.
Wolf Lord with runic armor, black death, other wargear can be included. In a drop pod with 5 grey hunters, with power weapon, melta and wolf standard.
This is only a basic idea to be built upon, the idea is to keep unit number low to benefit the black death's ability and the wolf standard to increase number of attacks. Maybe throw in a rune priest for possible prescience, or wolf priest for preferred enemy
GiraffeX wrote: Has Logan been totally nerfed now, I read his page so many times but need to ask to make sure I haven't missed anything.
So he no longer lets you take Wolf Guard as troops.
No longer has the the High King special rule....
My Logan Wing Army seems to have been crushed
But he has the option to have a sleigh and is now a LoW so cant count as an HQ
I would not call it a NERF, just shifted sideways and repurposed.
I expected the loss of FOC Manipulation. That is something they have just been getting rid of over the last few Codex.
Loganwing is still possible, you just have to go Unbound.
Every Codex now it going to include at least one big character becoming a LoW. As much as it may suck, I can work with it.
oz of the north wrote: Regarding the black death what does everyone think of this combo.
Wolf Lord with runic armor, black death, other wargear can be included. In a drop pod with 5 grey hunters, with power weapon, melta and wolf standard.
This is only a basic idea to be built upon, the idea is to keep unit number low to benefit the black death's ability and the wolf standard to increase number of attacks. Maybe throw in a rune priest for possible prescience, or wolf priest for preferred enemy
I am thinking of running a generic Wolf Lord with the Helm, Wulfen Stone, and Fangsword. 5 points cheaper than Ragnar, loses the reroll one save per assault phase, but gains reroll to hit all the time, Helfrost in melee, can give any squad he joins FC (even allies), can have a more useful warlord trait, and doesn't have to challenge if he is outmatched. and for 20 more points, can have a 2+/4++.
einlanzer wrote: "Only one of each Relic of the Fang may be taken per army. A model can replace one weapon with one of the following:" is the exact writing.
Hmm well I read this as "one relic per character", but if everyone else is saying otherwise then I'm willing to compromise...
gwarsh41 wrote: I think the armor of russ is one of the top relics.
Considering that saga of the bear is now pretty lackluster, a lot of us are worried about our fancy TWC lords dying before they get their +6 swings off, so you pop on that armor and boom, virtually every enemy is striking at I1. All the big fancy single modes, like daemon princes and greater daemons, are now striking at the same time, if not after the rest of your TWC. Allowing you the chance to slaughter it. Only initiative 10 baddies will not care about this, and that is only if you put an unwieldy weapon on your lord. Give them a wolf claw or something and he will strike before, if not at the same time as every model in the game.
The beef I have with the armor, is every model I think to put it on, already has a ++4 save, so I feel like I am wasting points in a sense. WGBL and iron priest dont, but they lack the wounds to make that kind of investment, and the iron priest already has a +2 save.
Yeah, the 4++ thing in the armour is enough to make me consider not using it on my Wolf Lord either. At the moment I'm leaning towards Wulfenstone + Black Death for tons of S7 AP2 attacks on the charge.
Anyone else check out Champions of Fenris yet? The relics aren't very good in that either, but there's one 15pt helfrost Stormbolter with 4 shots which looks pretty good for the cost!
Yeah, the 4++ thing in the armour is enough to make me consider not using it on my Wolf Lord either. At the moment I'm leaning towards Wulfenstone + Black Death for tons of S7 AP2 attacks on the charge.
The 10 point investment on it for a battle leader or rune priest seems worth it to me, I would be putting them in terminator/runic armour anyway, they get a better ++ save and a bonus in challenge
I havent seen the champions of fenris yet, didn't know it was already out. Do you have to do anything special to use the relics or warlord traits in that book?
GiraffeX wrote: My Logan Wing Army seems to have been crushed
Good news!
Haven't seen anything really posted on the Champions of Fenris supplement, so I thought I'd throw out some information for folks. Fans of the old Logan Wing will really want to take note of the new Force Organziation chart. For people who wonder why I colored some things:
Spoiler:
Auto-include. If you don't take this, you are shooting yourself in the foot.
Good option. Nice, not broken, definitely worth looking at.
Decent, baseline option. Not stand-out, but also not bad.
Subpar at best. Not completely awful, but either extremely situational or just generally underwhelming.
Trap option. Terrible, bad, you should avoid this almost entirely.
Special Rules Sagaborn: Characters must always issue and accept challenges. Challenges still have a pretty terrible mechanic in 7e, so being forced to issue and accept kinda stinks. Not really game breaking though.
First Among Equals: Wolf Guard Battle/Pack/Terminator leaders and TWC leaders get Preferred Enemy in challenges. If we're going to be forced to challenge, we might as well be good at it.
Overall, not anything to worry about. We have to challenge, but get bonuses when we do.
Warlord Traits 1. Re-roll a single failed save each turn. Always nice.
2. Re-roll all failed To-Wound rolls in Challenges. Not bad. Pairs nicely with First Among Equals, too bad challenges are still meh.
3. One free mastercrafted weapon, can't be a relic. *finger twirl*
4. Outflank for him and his unit. Let's you actually use your Acute Senses rule, and being able to Outflank any unit is always excellent.
5. Fearless. Most marines don't gain all that much from getting Fearless over ATSKNF, and I think they still can't Go To Ground while Fearless. Overall one of the weaker Warlord Traits
6. Preferred Enemy. Not bad, not great. Edit: Apparently Preferred Enemy does extend to a squad! I'd rate this normal to Cyan, depending on your other units. There seem to be plenty of ways to get PE for Wolves now though!
Relics (not sure if I can list costs. This book is only out to Wolf Guard buyers, but it is out...)
Armour of Asvald Stormwrack- 2+/4++ with Bulky, Deep Strike, IWND and Relentless. Lose sweeping advance. It's important to note that while fluffed as Terminator armor, there is currently nothing preventing a character from taking this armor AND a thunderwolf mount. It's basically 30 points for Relentless, IWND, and +2 to invulnerable save over Runic Armor. Not bad, but a wolflord already has a 4++. Other units that can take this armor only have W2 with no way to increase (i.e., no Thunderwolf access). Not bad, and IWND is probably worth that 30 points alone on a W4 Wolf Lord...
Frostfury- If you liked Bite of Fenris, this 5 points more for Assault 4 instead of Rapid Fire. You do lose the AP4/IC fire mode though. I'd say I actually like this one slightly better for Hellfrost spamming.
Krakenbone Sword- Basically a Master Crafted Power Axe that isn't Unwieldy, for 10 points over the Fangsword of the Icewolf. A TWC lord is hitting ATINIT, with S6 AP2 Master Crafted. Basically extra reliable AP2.
Morkai's Claws- For 15 more points, this set of Wolf's Claws gives you Rending and +d3 attacks instead of +1 for 2 CCWs. I'm pretty sure I'd pay 15 points just for Rending. Not great for your TWC lord (who already has Rending), but maybe on a Wolf Priest leading a bunch of Blood Claws?
Pelt of the Balewolf- Grants Fear (no, not kidding). Beasts, Cavalry or MCs, though, automatically FAIL that check if they aren't Fearless or have ATSKNF. Extremely situational, even if it's cheap. Are Carnifexes still Fearless outside of Synapse? I don't think they are? Can't remember. Either way, hardly much use for this, even for its cheap cost.
Fellclaw's Teeth- Reroll all failed To-Hit rolls in close combat. Just a passive bonus, not too expensive. Be really nice for TWC lords with the number of attacks they'll be pumping out. If you have spare points, you could do worse than buying this.
Detachment - Company of the Great Wolf For all you Logan Wing fans, this detachment is for you.
Compulsory: 1HQ, 2 ELITES
OPTIONAL: 3HQ, 3 Troops, 6 ELITES, 3 Fast Attack, 3 Heavy Support, 1 Fortification, 1 Lords of War
Grimnar's Right Hand: Reroll your Warlord Trait, but only if you use the chart in the book. Pretty standard stuff, though I'd say the chart is weaker overall than BRB charts.
Kingsguard: Gives a free +1WS for Wolf Guard of all stripes, and Thunderwolf Cavalry/Pack Leaders. Ya know, the guys you have a TON of slots for?
So fans of Logan Wing, you still don't have ObSec, but at least you have 8 Elites slots to fit everything in. With 0 mandatory troops!
Dataslates Kingsguard Stormforce: Requires Logan on a sled, 5 WG Terminators with Land Raier, and a Stormfang. When the WG charge from the Land Raider they get Furious Charge AND get to reroll failed charges. Also, as long as Logan is alive, you can choose to pass or fail and Reserve roll for the Stormfang. Pretty freakin sweet if you ask me.
Brethren of the Fell-Handed: Bjorn + 2 venedreads. All get Adamantium Will. As long as the dreads are within 6" of Bjorn, they get a 5++. While he's alive (regardless of distance), they all get to reroll failed To-Hit rolls in CC. Makes that Axe/Shield venedread seem really awesome. 3++ to the front, 5++ everywhere else, reroll hits in CC? DON'T MIND IF I DO!
Wolf Guard Void Claws: 1 unit of Wolf Guard Terminators (5 or more models), all have to have dual Wolf Claws, must start in reserve and arrive on turn 1. Starting out at 240 points for this Dataslate, all you get is:
-Reroll reserves as long as one model lives
-Reroll scatter when they deepstrike
They do get Kingsguard for the +1WS though.
Frankly, I think it's kind of a weak dataslate for its cost.
Grimnar's War Council- Ulrik, Njal, 1 Rune Priest, 1 Iron Priest. All get Fearless. Can be formed into a special unit that can't be joined by ICs except Logan and Arjac. If Logan joins them their Fearless becomes Zealot instead. More importantly, they let you reroll to see who deploys first AND give +2 to Seize the Initiative. Combined with Bjorn you're seizing on a 3+!
Arjac's Shieldbrothers- Arjac with TH/SS Wolf Guard (no unit size requirement) in a Land Raider Crusader. They get Kingsguard for +1WS, and Hammer of Wrath. Additionally, if Logan is in the army and alive, they Fearless. If Logan dies, Fearless becomes Zealot. (sort of the opposite of the War Council, sort of.) THey also get Shieldwall.. basically as long as models in the formation are in B2B with another model from the formation, they get +1T. When they roll 6s on invulnerable saves in CC, they cause a S8 AP2 Concussive hit with Random Allocation. Kind of badass, imo.
Wolf Guard Thunderstrike- 1 unit of WG Terminators (any size), 1 unit of 10 WG in a DP. Kingsguard once again. All arrive via 1 Reserve roll, and get Twin Linked (except the DP) when they show up. No idea how the "all arrive on 1 reserve roll" thing works if you decide to include the DPWG in your turn 1 Drop Pods... (wait, do they still get half on turn 1 automatically?)
Champions of Fenris- Okay, so you know the 6 Dataslates I already listed? The Champions of Fenris dataslate requires you take ALL of them. If you do, all models in all formations get:
Fear (lol)
Fearless
While Logan is alive, all non-vehicles reroll failed to-hit rolls in CC.
While the Iron Priest is alive, all vehicles get IWND! (hello Brethren of the Fell-Handed!)
While Njal is alive, all models get Adamantium Will.
While Ulrik is alive, all models get Preferred Enemy.
I'll leave it to someone else to figure out the point costs associated, but considering the number of Wolf Guard Terminators you need it's going to be hefty. Still, the picture for that dataslate is beyond epic!
So there you go. A basic rundown of the options in the Champions of Fenris book. Honestly? It's kind of awesome, but doesn't entirely eclipse the options in the actual codex (which is good). The Relics are pretty amazing, the Warlord traits (like most) are decent on average, and the dataslates are (largely) really fluffy and interesting. I suspect the Brethren of the Fell-Handed will see a decent amount of use. (seriously, 3 venedreads with 5++ saves AND adamantium will? yes please!)
The re-rolls in challenges are not all too bad. Consider that the majority of challenges will be against some sgt character who might have +1 attack, or +1 leadership. Most don't have upgrades. Then out of all the HQ challenges, how many will be striking at initiative AP2, MCs, daemons and Iron Arm dudes. So not all that much.
Average challenge is like, 1 wound. Your TWC lord has what, 5 or 6 attacks on the charge, all get to re-roll hit because of the challenge. So more attacks hit, which then spill over into the rest of the unit. I mean, worst case you end up against an opponent who has a good chance at killing your dude, then they will challenge anyway.
Also, doesn't the rule for preferred enemy state "as long as one model in the unit has this rule the whole unit gets it"?
Leth wrote: Except only one model in the unit has to have preferred enemy for the entire squad to benefit.
Just a heads up for warlord trait 6.
Huh, did not realize this. Updated!
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gwarsh41 wrote: The re-rolls in challenges are not all too bad. Consider that the majority of challenges will be against some sgt character who might have +1 attack, or +1 leadership. Most don't have upgrades. Then out of all the HQ challenges, how many will be striking at initiative AP2, MCs, daemons and Iron Arm dudes. So not all that much.
Average challenge is like, 1 wound. Your TWC lord has what, 5 or 6 attacks on the charge, all get to re-roll hit because of the challenge. So more attacks hit, which then spill over into the rest of the unit. I mean, worst case you end up against an opponent who has a good chance at killing your dude, then they will challenge anyway.
Also, doesn't the rule for preferred enemy state "as long as one model in the unit has this rule the whole unit gets it"?
I rated most of the Challenge-centric stuff as "normal". Mostly I think challenges are still wonky in 40k. I rated the "must challenge or accept" purple mainly because I dislike being forced to challenge or accept a challenge. It's fluffy enough, sure, but there are still plenty of reasons to not want to issue or accept a challenge. Like I said, not game breaking by any stretch of the imagination but still not ideal.
I'm suddenly very very glad I ordered the supplement. In an edition whereby it seems the whole world is going down the route of grey hunters in drop pods I'm almost compelled to field wolf guard with jump packs alongside TWC....
A question on the relics... Does A detachment chosen from the supplement HAVE to take relics from that book, or may they take them? So could they still take the relics from the standard Dex instead?
Khaine's Wrath wrote: I'm suddenly very very glad I ordered the supplement. In an edition whereby it seems the whole world is going down the route of grey hunters in drop pods I'm almost compelled to field wolf guard with jump packs alongside TWC....
A question on the relics... Does A detachment chosen from the supplement HAVE to take relics from that book, or may they take them? So could they still take the relics from the standard Dex instead?
I am also pretty curious about this. Plus, can you mix and match relics? Can a supplement detachment take a relic from the codex? That sword with the armor of russ on a TWC lord is a dream come true for me.
The Company of the Great Wolf detachment is specific to Champions of Fenris, so those units can only take relics from Champions of Fenris and NOT from Codex: Space Wolves.
The Wolves Unleashed detachment is specific to Codex: Space Wolves, so units in that detachment can only take relics from Codex: Space Wolves, NOT from Champions of Fenris.
Combined Arms detachment is specific to no book, and so can be used to select models from Champions of Fenris, or Codex: Space Wolves. Whichever codex you opt to use, you can only take relics from that book, for that detachment.
So, no, you can not mix and match relics on a single model. Yes, you can mix and match relics in an army, provided you field a full* detachment of some kind per book.
*Full as in you meet the minimum requirements for that detachment. (e.g., 1HQ/2Troops for CAD, 1HQ/2Elites for CotGW, etc.)
Relics of the Great Wolf Any character that is part of a Detachment or Formation presented in this book that can select Relics of the Fang cannot select from those listed in Codex: Space Wolves, but can instead select from Relics of the Great Wolf, presented opposite, at the points costs shown.
Relics of the Great Wolf Any character that is part of a Detachment or Formation presented in this book that can select Relics of the Fang cannot select from those listed in Codex: Space Wolves, but can instead select from Relics of the Great Wolf, presented opposite, at the points costs shown.
Thanks dude. I'm gutted. But thanks for that. I'm still looking forward to getting the book.
Fast Attack Drop Pods carrying plasma'd up AM Company Comand Squad and Veteran Squads from an Allied Dettchment
That's not wolf tactics. That is list tactics.
I for one will not be on the fast attack drop pod bandwagon unless I put an actual wolf unit in it, such as terminators, lone wolves or scouts.
It's wolf tactics as well actually.
Their offensive shooting output is higher than a Grey Hunters squad due to the large number of plasma/melta weapons each unit can take, so they will definitely get your opponents attention if you drop them in Rapid Fire range, giving Dreads, Grey Hunters or Wolfguard a little more breathing room to close in for the kill.
The veterans also have Objective Secured, which is something wolves lack in a Wolves Unleashed Detatchment, so instead of using them to Alpha Strike you can drop them on an objective you want to control.
Combine this with a load of SW in drop pods who start assaulting turn 2 and a couple of (possibly outflanking) full strength units of Blood Claws who can assault anywhere on the board starting about turn 3 and you have a very nasty wolf pack closing in from every direction for the kill.
Why would someone take a Wolves Unleashed Detachment? You can just take a CAD of SW.
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Jefffar wrote: a couple of (possibly outflanking) full strength units of Blood Claws who can assault. Anywhere on the board starting about turn 3 and you have a very nasty wolf pack closing in from every direction for the kill.
Did I miss some part of Wolves Unleashed that allows assault from Outflank?
So a troops unit could buy a drop pod not start in it, but that empty pod would still up your total pod count and have objective secured, right? (Place a random objective somewhere and force the other guy to shoot at an empty pod if he wants it).
Jefffar wrote: Mostly for the outflank and the ability to take more than 2 HQs.
But outflank isn't that good and you can take plenty of HQs from multiple CADs... Obsec is way better than 6 HQs.
Outflank is pretty terrible indeed. Even with acute senses. Same problem with drop pods and deep striking. You will enter play.... And stand there for a turn. As we're talking tactics I've heard a lot of people saying they will outflank big units of TWC.... Well I hope you take loads of SS, cos they're going to get hammered!
Personally I would outflank a vindicators or something if I could.
But I do see a bonus to the wolves unleashed, and that's the ability to guarantee the entry of one reserve per turn. With units like the storm fang in the army now I think that's pretty huge. Knowing that big hellfrost ap3 large blast is DEFINITELY coming in is awesome.
If you take an iron priest, servitors don't take up a force org slot. Therefore, you could take 30 units of single servitors with a plasma cannon for 900 points. Only 15 would be able to fire each turn, but those 15 plasma cannons can cause a lot of damage.
Well outflanking in an AV 12 flyer that is immune to Melta certainly ups the survival rate and it means that even on the wrong side of the board (unlikely with Accute Senses) you can be in range to assault something the turn after you arrive, even if it's not your preferred target.
I was referring to Jeffars statement that outflank was somehow better because you could assault the turn after you arrive from the flyer. You can do the same without outflank.
That... doesn't even make sense. Nowhere in the text does it say one relic per character. It says one weapon for one relic, and one of each relic per army. Since three of them do not require a weapon to be traded, there's no reason you can't take them and a weapon relic.
pretre wrote: You can get anywhere on the board with an assault flyer without outflank though. What bonus does outflank gain you?
Well first off, it depends on which way the table is laid out. if you have a table where you are having to go the full 72 inch length to get from your table edge to oyur opponents, an Assault flyer can't deliver its cargo into an assault in less than three turns coming in from its own table edge.
Second, it depends what you want to assault. Generally an opponent will rush his best assault units headlong across the table at you. This puts them at the front of his lines. As a general rule, when assaulting, you should attack the weak units and leave the tougher units for your shooting to take care of. Coming in fom the flank allows you to position your assault behind these units and go for the throat easier.
Third is the threat. Knowing that the enemy could hit him from the side as well as the front affects the way your opponent deploys and utilizes his forces. If he pushes too deep forwards, he risks having any unit that starts to fall back cut off and destroyed. Likewise he risks unmasking his valuable fire support units to being buried under a tide of blood claws.
All things being equal, having the outflank opens up a number of options that can make it worthwhile. Now, is it worth giving up objective secured? I'd have to play it each way a few times to make up my mind.
blaktoof wrote: It says a model may replace a weapon with one of the following.
some of the following do not require you to give up a weapon by the note of "6"
however that does not take away that you only get to take one of the following.
that they are limited to one for one weapon, and some do not require you to give up a weapon does not take away that you are still limited to one.
It say you can replace One Weapon for One of the Following.
There are 3 of them that do not replace a Weapon.
So you can take One as a replacement of a Weapon.
The other Three either have no Restrictions on number as none are listed OR Because you can't Replace a Weapon with one of them you cant take ANY.
It has to be the first, there are NO Restrictions other than only one can be taken in place of a Weapon.
blaktoof wrote: The restriction is that you can take one of the following. Some of them require you to replace a.weapon, some do not.
One relic per character
The most literal interpretation of it dictates that anything that doesn't require a weapon replacement cannot be taken, since the rule says you may replace one weapon for one of the following. So I guess if you can't replace a weapon for it, you can't take it.
blaktoof wrote: The restriction is that you can take one of the following. Some of them require you to replace a.weapon, some do not.
One relic per character
No where does it say that, the two Restrictions Are:
>Only One of each Relic of the Fang may be taken per Army.
>A Model Can Replace One Weapon with One of the Following.
So All of them can be taken by the Army
Each Model Can replace One Weapon for One Relic.
Three of them have a 6 after them.
6] Does not Replace One of the Characters Weapons.
blaktoof wrote: The restriction is that you can take one of the following. Some of them require you to replace a.weapon, some do not.
One relic per character
It says, and I quote "These artefacts are items of incredible rarity, ancient heirlooms that are carefully maintained and stored within the impregnable armouries of the Fang. Only one of each of the following relics may be chosen per army."
And then if we pop over to say, The Wolf Lord page, it says "May take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and/or Relics of the Fang lists". Items means plural.
Then on the equipment page it says, under Relics of the Fang, "Only one of each Relic of the Fang may be taken per army. A model can replace one weapon with one of the following:"
Doesn't say anywhere that a character can only take one relic, only that one of each relic can be in the entire army. There is a small annotation next to a few of the items that reads "Does not replace one of the character's weapons"
The Sisters of Battle Codex explicitly forbids a character from taking more than one. I have always taken that to mean that codices that don't explicitly do so intend for you to be able to take multiple relics on one character.
Mavnas wrote: The Sisters of Battle Codex explicitly forbids a character from taking more than one. I have always taken that to mean that codices that don't explicitly do so intend for you to be able to take multiple relics on one character.
pretre wrote: You can get anywhere on the board with an assault flyer without outflank though. What bonus does outflank gain you?
Well first off, it depends on which way the table is laid out. if you have a table where you are having to go the full 72 inch length to get from your table edge to oyur opponents, an Assault flyer can't deliver its cargo into an assault in less than three turns coming in from its own table edge.
Second, it depends what you want to assault. Generally an opponent will rush his best assault units headlong across the table at you. This puts them at the front of his lines. As a general rule, when assaulting, you should attack the weak units and leave the tougher units for your shooting to take care of. Coming in fom the flank allows you to position your assault behind these units and go for the throat easier.
Third is the threat. Knowing that the enemy could hit him from the side as well as the front affects the way your opponent deploys and utilizes his forces. If he pushes too deep forwards, he risks having any unit that starts to fall back cut off and destroyed. Likewise he risks unmasking his valuable fire support units to being buried under a tide of blood claws.
All things being equal, having the outflank opens up a number of options that can make it worthwhile. Now, is it worth giving up objective secured? I'd have to play it each way a few times to make up my mind.
flyers move 36 the first tyrn, fire for full effect, 12 under hover (2 plus machine spirit) disembark 6 and charge 2d6. That's 54 to 66 inches not counting flat out. That should get you across the board even without outflank.
Outflanking Grey Hunters {Note the plural} can really change up the game.
The same with Swift Claws/Wolf Guard Bikers, heck the threat of TWC puts you opponent in the Defensive.
It also let you get units in place in your opponents backfield for Line-Breaker and objective Stealing.
And lets not forget a Land Raider Crusader filled with Blood Claws.
You opponent will know they are out there and with Acute Senses he will never know where they will be coming from.
pretre wrote: You can get anywhere on the board with an assault flyer without outflank though. What bonus does outflank gain you?
Well first off, it depends on which way the table is laid out. if you have a table where you are having to go the full 72 inch length to get from your table edge to oyur opponents, an Assault flyer can't deliver its cargo into an assault in less than three turns coming in from its own table edge.
Second, it depends what you want to assault. Generally an opponent will rush his best assault units headlong across the table at you. This puts them at the front of his lines. As a general rule, when assaulting, you should attack the weak units and leave the tougher units for your shooting to take care of. Coming in fom the flank allows you to position your assault behind these units and go for the throat easier.
Third is the threat. Knowing that the enemy could hit him from the side as well as the front affects the way your opponent deploys and utilizes his forces. If he pushes too deep forwards, he risks having any unit that starts to fall back cut off and destroyed. Likewise he risks unmasking his valuable fire support units to being buried under a tide of blood claws.
All things being equal, having the outflank opens up a number of options that can make it worthwhile. Now, is it worth giving up objective secured? I'd have to play it each way a few times to make up my mind.
flyers move 36 the first tyrn, fire for full effect, 12 under hover (2 plus machine spirit) disembark 6 and charge 2d6. That's 54 to 66 inches not counting flat out. That should get you across the board even without outflank.
You cant fly 12 when you want to disembark, only 6" allowed. The disembark and assault move might be obstructed, it would be hard to charge something in their back lines.
Mavnas wrote: The Sisters of Battle Codex explicitly forbids a character from taking more than one. I have always taken that to mean that codices that don't explicitly do so intend for you to be able to take multiple relics on one character.
And what would be the wording on that?
Actually... I take that back. It seems to be the same now.
I now agree with you that only one relic can be taken per character. I notice the special issue wargear list says:
A model can take up to one of each of the following:
Champions of Fenris- Okay, so you know the 6 Dataslates I already listed? The Champions of Fenris dataslate requires you take ALL of them. If you do, all models in all formations get:
Fear (lol)
Fearless
While Logan is alive, all non-vehicles reroll failed to-hit rolls in CC.
While the Iron Priest is alive, all vehicles get IWND! (hello Brethren of the Fell-Handed!)
While Njal is alive, all models get Adamantium Will.
While Ulrik is alive, all models get Preferred Enemy.
I'll leave it to someone else to figure out the point costs associated, but considering the number of Wolf Guard Terminators you need it's going to be hefty. Still, the picture for that dataslate is beyond epic!
2908pts MINIMUM! I'm talking 3 man squads with no upgrades wherever possible. One to save for 3500-4000pts mega games.
Kavish wrote: 2908pts MINIMUM! I'm talking 3 man squads with no upgrades wherever possible. One to save for 3500-4000pts mega games.
Yowch! Even in a 3k game you don't have a ton of space for options...
Question: What are people eyeing in regards to Grey Hunter load outs. I was mucking about trying to find a good template, but I'm looking at 250+ points a squad. It's been awhile since I've played my Space Wolves (been focusing on my Orks), so I can't quite remember if that's normal.
Sample:
Grey Hunters x10
CCW x9 (no sense giving the Powerfist dude a CCW)
Powerfist (I know an axe is 10 points cheaper and mostly as effective, but I love my fist models...)
Plasma Pistol
Plasma Gun x2
Drop Pod
Weighs in at 263 points. Still drops 5 plasma shots when it arrives, has the usual Wolf CC punch, and seems generally useful all around. I realize it's basically the most expensive options as well (e.g., Plasma over Melta and Fist over Axe). Thoughts?
I'll just continue running two plasma/melta and CCW and go from there. It's a little more expensive than last time, but can still do what it's been doing for 5 years o just as well. It clocks in at 190 points, or 225 with a transport.
I might try 5-men-1-special as an MSU list at some point.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: That doesn't mean one relic per character. It means one of EACH of the relics listed a.k.a. multiple relics can be taken.
you can take one of each relic.
Only one of each Relic of the Fang may be taken per army. A model can replace one weapon
with one of the following:
a character may replace one weapon for one of the following.
Let us look at the above sentence. A character is allowed one of the following, they replace a weapon for it.
some of the items do not require you to replace the weapon.
not replacing the weapon does not mean you also get to ignore that you are allowed "one of the following" as it is not a modification to that part of the rule but to the replacing of an item.
its the same reason you cannot replace one weapon and take one relic, and then replace another one weapon and get another one relic.
You are only allowed one relic per character, and some of them do not require you to give up a weapon the character already has to take as noted by footnote 6.
This is quite germane to the tactica thread as some people are tying to take a wolf lord with 2-4 relics.
Only one of each Relic of the Fang may be taken per army. A model can replace one weapon
with one of the following:
a character may replace one weapon for one of the following.
Let us look at the above sentence. A character is allowed one of the following, they replace a weapon for it.
That's not what it says at all. The only limit is that only one weapon can be replaced. If I replace my Bolt Pistol with the Fangs of Fenris, then buy the Armor of Russ, I have still only "replace[d] one weapon with one of the [relics]:". The sentence doesn't specify how many relics may be taken, only how many weapons may be replaced.
Edit:
its the same reason you cannot replace one weapon and take one relic, and then replace another one weapon and get another one relic.
You are only allowed one relic per character, and some of them do not require you to give up a weapon the character already has to take as noted by footnote 6.
The reason you can not replace one weapon with one of the relics, and then replace another weapon with of the relics, is that you have then replaced two weapons. There is no rule written that specifies how many relics may be taken, only how many weapons may be replaced. (One)
Kavish wrote: 2908pts MINIMUM! I'm talking 3 man squads with no upgrades wherever possible. One to save for 3500-4000pts mega games.
Yowch! Even in a 3k game you don't have a ton of space for options...
Question: What are people eyeing in regards to Grey Hunter load outs. I was mucking about trying to find a good template, but I'm looking at 250+ points a squad. It's been awhile since I've played my Space Wolves (been focusing on my Orks), so I can't quite remember if that's normal.
Sample:
Grey Hunters x10
CCW x9 (no sense giving the Powerfist dude a CCW)
Powerfist (I know an axe is 10 points cheaper and mostly as effective, but I love my fist models...)
Plasma Pistol
Plasma Gun x2
Drop Pod
Weighs in at 263 points. Still drops 5 plasma shots when it arrives, has the usual Wolf CC punch, and seems generally useful all around. I realize it's basically the most expensive options as well (e.g., Plasma over Melta and Fist over Axe). Thoughts?
I'd rather take 5 Wolf Guard w/ Plasma Pistols over that. 5 WG w/ PP's and DP is 200 points for 5 Plasma Shots. 5 fewer attacks, but WS 5 if you go with the supplement. 63 points in savings is better. Use those points for Blood claws or whatever. Also, you can assault after firing the 5 Plasma shots. The more I think about GH, the more I like simple ccw + flamer. Leave the Tank and Elite busting to other units, they do it better.
Mad_Proctologist wrote: If you take an iron priest, servitors don't take up a force org slot. Therefore, you could take 30 units of single servitors with a plasma cannon for 900 points. Only 15 would be able to fire each turn, but those 15 plasma cannons can cause a lot of damage.
How about 5 servitors with Multi Meltas in a drop pod - 135 points. Add in an iron priest and they might even survive a turn or 2 with him tanking on his 2+
Mavnas wrote: Is there any unit in this codex that can take 3+ plasma guns?
15 blood claws can get 2, if one is wolfguard pack leader you can pick up another plasma pistol or combi plasma.
10 grey hunters can get 2, if one is wolfguard pack leader you can pick up another plasma pistol or combi plasma.
5 skyclaws can get get 2, if one is wolfguard pack leader you can pick up another plasma pistol or combi plasma.
The skyclaw unit comes in as the cheapest option at about 125 points. Although they are BS 3.
edit, you can take Wolf Scouts and take 5, give 2 plasma pistols, 1 a plasma gun, and upgrade one to a pack leader with combi plasma or a 3rd plasma gun. This with combi plasma on the pack leader is 135pts.
Mad_Proctologist wrote: If you take an iron priest, servitors don't take up a force org slot. Therefore, you could take 30 units of single servitors with a plasma cannon for 900 points. Only 15 would be able to fire each turn, but those 15 plasma cannons can cause a lot of damage.
How about 5 servitors with Multi Meltas in a drop pod - 135 points. Add in an iron priest and they might even survive a turn or 2 with him tanking on his 2+
They snap fire turn 1. At that cost you would need more than hoping they survive a turn.
Uriels_Flame wrote: I'm debating on putting WG on bikes/Jump Packs as they take up an Elite slot (though could be pricey). Having skyclaws for bullet shields and then the TWC bringing up the hammer.
Still working on price points for them though.
Any thoughts on the more flexible way to run WG? Bikes or Jump?
Kavish wrote: 2908pts MINIMUM! I'm talking 3 man squads with no upgrades wherever possible. One to save for 3500-4000pts mega games.
Yowch! Even in a 3k game you don't have a ton of space for options...
Question: What are people eyeing in regards to Grey Hunter load outs. I was mucking about trying to find a good template, but I'm looking at 250+ points a squad. It's been awhile since I've played my Space Wolves (been focusing on my Orks), so I can't quite remember if that's normal.
Sample:
Grey Hunters x10
CCW x9 (no sense giving the Powerfist dude a CCW)
Powerfist (I know an axe is 10 points cheaper and mostly as effective, but I love my fist models...)
Plasma Pistol
Plasma Gun x2
Drop Pod
Weighs in at 263 points. Still drops 5 plasma shots when it arrives, has the usual Wolf CC punch, and seems generally useful all around. I realize it's basically the most expensive options as well (e.g., Plasma over Melta and Fist over Axe). Thoughts?
I'd rather take 5 Wolf Guard w/ Plasma Pistols over that. 5 WG w/ PP's and DP is 200 points for 5 Plasma Shots. 5 fewer attacks, but WS 5 if you go with the supplement. 63 points in savings is better. Use those points for Blood claws or whatever. Also, you can assault after firing the 5 Plasma shots. The more I think about GH, the more I like simple ccw + flamer. Leave the Tank and Elite busting to other units, they do it better.
You could dual wield them with bolt pistols and get in 5 bolter shots too, while still keeping +1 attack for 2 weapons. I had a build like this in 6th but ripped them apart to make more grey hunters, I might rebuild them now that I have more models from stormclaw
The other wolfguard option I want to try is all stormbolters, for 20 shots at range 24", couple this with jump packs and You would have a highly mobile ( could get to or get away from enemies) anti infantry squad.
Wolf scouts:
I see a combo with sniper rifles and a heavy bolter for a fire support unit. Or camo cloaks and flak missiles for 105 points for a hidden skyfire missile somewhere on the board (but you coul also split fire 1 skyfire missile out of a long fang pack too.
Skyclaws: MSU packs of 5 skyclaws jumping around with 2 flamers would be hell to enemy infantry.
A 250+ point troop squad is a bad investment. I will be running my GH with CCW and 2 meltas, that's it. No wolf guard, no 25 point unwieldy power fist on a guy with a 3+ save, and no plasma guns that prevent me from firing and charging. Plasma pistols have killed my own GH more than they've killed enemies in the 25~ games I used them in. I have since ripped them all off and replaced with less suicidal weapons.
Toofast wrote: A 250+ point troop squad is a bad investment. I will be running my GH with CCW and 2 meltas, that's it. No wolf guard, no 25 point unwieldy power fist on a guy with a 3+ save, and no plasma guns that prevent me from firing and charging. Plasma pistols have killed my own GH more than they've killed enemies in the 25~ games I used them in. I have since ripped them all off and replaced with less suicidal weapons.
That also depends on your Meta.
In my Meta we all tend to fill up on Wargear and options, so most Troop Choices are in the 250-300+ without Trasports. It actually balances out at the end of the day. *Then again we are not into the competitive scene.
I run ravenwing now so im leaning towards throwing WG with jump packs. However T5 is nothing to throw away. I agrre with the Melta as i dont like using plasma unless there a twin link there, hence RW knights.
I'm considering adding the following unit to my SW collection.
Canis Wolfborn 185
Wolfpack (5, 1 is cyber) 50
Iron priest, 4 cyber wolves, thunderwolf 165
400pts
Has 11 models (Canis, IP, 5 cyber wolves, 4 fenrisian wolves) They all get stubborn from saga of wolfkin.
on the charge the unit has rampage, Furious charge, and all the wolves/cyber wolves + canis reroll failed to hit rolls.
If they outnumber what they charge, due to being shot at or whatever, then...rampage!
Lets say we lose the 4 normal wolves to shooting before they charge turn 2 and get rampage against a unit.
Canis is 7+d3 str7 ap 3 attacks @ I5 on the charge with reroll hits and reroll wounds.
Iron priest is 5+d3 str 10 attacks ap1 hitting at I 1 or ap2 with concussive
5 cyber wolves are a total of 4+d3(x5)=20+5d3 attacks str 5 @ I 4 with rerolls to hit.
The wolves alone, against an invis unit with the reroll to hit are looking at an average of 9 str 5 hits, canis would add in another 2 str 7 ap 3 hits, and the IP would add in 1 str 10 hit on average.
They would gib almost any other unit short of a insanely huge blob like a greentide.
blaktoof wrote: I'm considering adding the following unit to my SW collection.
Canis Wolfborn 185
Wolfpack (5, 1 is cyber) 50
Iron priest, 4 cyber wolves, thunderwolf 165
400pts
Has 11 models (Canis, IP, 5 cyber wolves, 4 fenrisian wolves) They all get stubborn from saga of wolfkin.
on the charge the unit has rampage, Furious charge, and all the wolves/cyber wolves + canis reroll failed to hit rolls.
If they outnumber what they charge, due to being shot at or whatever, then...rampage!
Lets say we lose the 4 normal wolves to shooting before they charge turn 2 and get rampage against a unit.
Canis is 7+d3 str7 ap 3 attacks @ I5 on the charge with reroll hits and reroll wounds.
Iron priest is 5+d3 str 10 attacks ap1 hitting at I 1 or ap2 with concussive
5 cyber wolves are a total of 4+d3(x5)=20+5d3 attacks str 5 @ I 4 with rerolls to hit.
The wolves alone, against an invis unit with the reroll to hit are looking at an average of 9 str 5 hits, canis would add in another 2 str 7 ap 3 hits, and the IP would add in 1 str 10 hit on average.
They would gib almost any other unit short of a insanely huge blob like a greentide.
thoughts? criticisms?
Long as you can avoid assault Termies or CCWGT you should be decent, as they will shrug off your AP3 attacks, and their hits back will hurt, also, anything with init lowering abilities or init 6+ can shred you before you strike.
This is true, against assault termies however they would still get hit by 22 wounds before initiative 1 happend, even at 2+ save they are losing 3-4 models. assuming no rampaging. at I1 the IP will gib 1 more on average.
assuming 10 termies total, for ~400 points with TH/SS return attacks would be from 7-6 models, we will be generous and say 7, and will cause 10 wounds, which would probably gib all the wolves, leaving canis and the IP who would not be able to finish them off and get gibbed in return leaving 2-3 termies still in the unit.
pretre wrote: Why would you take Canis over Harald? He buffs wolves as well doesn't he?
He is fun to use?
Meh, I thought this was a tactics thread...
True, but there is nothing wrong with a little levity now and then.
I find he is good as a Leader for Fenrisian Wolves.
One trick with him is to take him with his 2 wolves + 2-3 Packs of Wolves. Just before you Assault you break him off from the Wolf Packs and let them make the first Assaults of the Assault Phase eating up Overwatch. Then have him Assault, this will almost always guaranty him being outnumbered. Now you have the choice of letting one of the Cyberwolves issue the challenge or let Canis do it.
Anyone Consider a cheap HQ with the Twin-Linked/Ignores cover relic dropping with meltas/plasmas into the opponents backfield? Bikes, Wave Serpents, A Barges would be toast whereas they would get a 4+/3+ jink usually
thisisnotpancho wrote: Anyone Consider a cheap HQ with the Twin-Linked/Ignores cover relic dropping with meltas/plasmas into the opponents backfield? Bikes, Wave Serpents, A Barges would be toast whereas they would get a 4+/3+ jink usually
Is sounds great, but The Helm of Durfast only affect the model using it.
lliu wrote: What about that hideous logansled or the clown shoe spaceship.
Well Logan I think is going to be a beast in Assaults.
The two Flyers, One is a flying LRC with hardly any downsides and the other is basically and A-10 with troop transport capability. Which is better, I think play style will determine that.
thisisnotpancho wrote: Anyone Consider a cheap HQ with the Twin-Linked/Ignores cover relic dropping with meltas/plasmas into the opponents backfield? Bikes, Wave Serpents, A Barges would be toast whereas they would get a 4+/3+ jink usually
Is sounds great, but The Helm of Durfast only affect the model using it.
On a drop poded combi-melta is that a bad thing?
Runepriest with Helm of durfast and Combi-melta
Either Tempestas, telekinesis or biomancy powers
Can Nova/witchfire/buff in psychic phase with re-rolls to hit, and then Melta a vehicle with re-roll to hit and ignores cover.
thisisnotpancho wrote: Anyone Consider a cheap HQ with the Twin-Linked/Ignores cover relic dropping with meltas/plasmas into the opponents backfield? Bikes, Wave Serpents, A Barges would be toast whereas they would get a 4+/3+ jink usually
Is sounds great, but The Helm of Durfast only affect the model using it.
On a drop poded combi-melta is that a bad thing?
Runepriest with Helm of durfast and Combi-melta
Either Tempestas, telekinesis or biomancy powers
Can Nova/witchfire/buff in psychic phase with re-rolls to hit, and then Melta a vehicle with re-roll to hit and ignores cover.
The Frost Sword is generally better as long as you're gaining the extra attack from a pistol or ccw. If you're mounted on a Thunderwolf your chances to wound are usually so good that the shred is much less useful than the extra attack. If you have few attacks the Frost Sword has much better odds of getting you an extra wound. Finally, some of the combat boosting effects like Preferred Enemy or Furious Charge improve the Frost Sword's advantage.
Use Wolf Claw if you're taking a SS or you have more than 4 base attacks but don't expect to be wounding on 2s. If you're only hitting on 4s and wounding on 3s you'd want the Wolf Claw if you are making 4 attacks or more.
For me the benefit of Wolves Unleashed is 6 HQ for 2 troop. Yes you can take 6 HQ under CAD but would need 6 troops. Losing objective secured would be mimimal in the face of a WL on TWC with the black death IMO.
Greyhunter77 wrote: For me the benefit of Wolves Unleashed is 6 HQ for 2 troop. Yes you can take 6 HQ under CAD but would need 6 troops. Losing objective secured would be mimimal in the face of a WL on TWC with the black death IMO.
I pretty much agree. I also am building a storm wolf with 10 Grey hunters and possibly a rune priest inside. Allowing me to guarantee its arrival on turn two is very nice too.
Greyhunter77 wrote: For me the benefit of Wolves Unleashed is 6 HQ for 2 troop. Yes you can take 6 HQ under CAD but would need 6 troops. Losing objective secured would be mimimal in the face of a WL on TWC with the black death IMO.
I pretty much agree. I also am building a storm wolf with 10 Grey hunters and possibly a rune priest inside. Allowing me to guarantee its arrival on turn two is very nice too.
And it coul come on from a side edge of the board, hopefully angling for rear armour
Wolf guard battle leader
Armor of russ
twox claws
thunderwolf
The idea is that he can issue challenges, get their initiative down and then go before them, hopefully putting some wounds on so the rest of the squad can finish them off. With the rending and shred I am not as worried about the lack of AP2 and was more concerned about going at init.
You wont need to worry too much about AP2 because you have rending, as does the rest of your unit. The WGBL with armor of russ does seem like nice "cheap" anti challenge dude to beef up a TWC unit.
I am really starting to think that wolf claws/frost swords are the way for TWC to go. Give the storm shield dudes wolf claws, and the naked dudes frost swords. They are the same cost, so you might as well take shred if you don't have that pistol.
Rune priest on bike with the helm and biomancy is what I am thinking about for a melee priest. Pop him in with some TWC or WG on bikes. Hope for endurance or iron arm. Smite being twin linked and ignores cover is just awesome. I just cant decide what type of weapon to give him. I really dig the staff for the +2 strength, but having AP3 with the sword would be awesome as well. The axe is nice, but I1 always stinks.
Greyhunter77 wrote: For me the benefit of Wolves Unleashed is 6 HQ for 2 troop. Yes you can take 6 HQ under CAD but would need 6 troops. Losing objective secured would be mimimal in the face of a WL on TWC with the black death IMO.
I just bought 6 thunderwolves. One day, I'm going to have to run them with this detachment and 2 min GH squads, using them all as Thunderlords!
I still think you are gonna want that strength 10 on the wolves just to deal with knights if you have to as well as ID out almost anything(like CCB lords). I am running three storm and 2 power fist in my 5 man unit right now.
People harp on about not needing Ap2 the ks to Rending.... But it really isn't all that good. And it's particularly unreliable. It's a 1 in 6 chance. That's pretty poor.
Anpu42 wrote: Don't overlook the Power Mace/Maul/Staff. This gives you a base S7, AP4, Concussive & Rending on a Thunderwolf.
I completely forgot that you can take a power maul over a power sword. I really dig power mauls on wolf priests. Looks like I need to make a set of power mauls for my TWC. Tough call between a wolf claw and a power maul though. 1 less strength and AP with shred. Sure it isn't as nice against vehicles, but shred should make up for that loss of strength, and AP3 will be very nice. Its what, 5 pt more?
Anpu42 wrote: Don't overlook the Power Mace/Maul/Staff. This gives you a base S7, AP4, Concussive & Rending on a Thunderwolf.
I completely forgot that you can take a power maul over a power sword. I really dig power mauls on wolf priests. Looks like I need to make a set of power mauls for my TWC. Tough call between a wolf claw and a power maul though. 1 less strength and AP with shred. Sure it isn't as nice against vehicles, but shred should make up for that loss of strength, and AP3 will be very nice. Its what, 5 pt more?
I love them, I have a Wolf Priest that has wracked up more Rhinos that I can count, and that is with S6
A Mace on a Thunderwolf is like having a Auto-Cannon in your pocket.
Greyhunter77 wrote: For me the benefit of Wolves Unleashed is 6 HQ for 2 troop. Yes you can take 6 HQ under CAD but would need 6 troops. Losing objective secured would be mimimal in the face of a WL on TWC with the black death IMO.
I think I may like the Company of the Great Wolf better. Sure, it's only 4 HQ instead of 6, but it's 8 elites, still 3 fast attack, and no mandatory troops (not that I wouldn't have Grey Hunters in my army...). Plus I feel like the guaranteed +1WS for Wolf Guard of all kinds and for Thunderwolf Cavalry and Thunderwolf Pack Leaders is better than the 1-in-6 chance my unit might Outflank. Granted, it's 4+ if the unit is troops AND has a leader attached, but really, how many units do I need outflanking with Drop Pods and Thunderwolves all over the place?
I'm running something like that at an 1850 tournament soon.
Steel Host with Pask
Wolf Priest with BC in Stormwolf
GH in Stormfang
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I finally got my stormwolf kits. I love them!
I see potential for adding Wolf Priests to blob guard. Either an assaulty group with Inquisitor / rad grenades / hammerhand (declare pref enemy to Infantry or MCs depending on your target of choice), or a shooty lascannon blob and declare pref enemy vehicles or MCs.
I think blob guard would benefit most from ulrik. Fearless, preferred enemy and stubborn within 6. Throw a techmarine(potentially on thunderwolf into another blob and now they both benefit from preferred enemy all the time.
Leth wrote: I think blob guard would benefit most from ulrik. Fearless, preferred enemy and stubborn within 6. Throw a techmarine(potentially on thunderwolf into another blob and now they both benefit from preferred enemy all the time.
Stubborn and Fearless really don't... matter? When combined, I mean. Fearless means the Stubborn won't matter, though Stubborn alone is decent. The pref enemy bubble would be difficult to utilize, however. Simply because the secondary wolf model would have to be within 12'' of Ulrik, when both models are in large blobs of guardsmen. Not impossible, but it inhibits the movement of the guard in favor of utilizing pref enemy. There is something to be said for paying roughly a rhino's worth of points to get pref enemy anything, stubborn, and +1W for ulrik over a standard priest.
I was thinking of putting a Lone Wolf with a Blood Claw/Grey Hunter unit mounted in a pod. Charge the Lone Wolf first so he eats up all of the overwatch. From what I understand from the rules this is perfectly fine, as long as the unit does not include an IC or Wolf Pack Leader.
My main issue with Lone Wolves is that they now give up VP when killed. They are basically easy First Blood if you're not careful, and that's a VP that can only be earned by one side.
So finished my first battle, a few things I noticed:
-Wolf Banner got nerfed pretty bad, but the 1 unit that can take it got a huge buff if it gets into assault.
-Ulrik is freaking AWESOME. 6+ FNP is not amazing, but it's at such a sweet point that you don't expect it to ever work, but whenever it does you're going to feel amazing. I got 2 FNP rolls off in a row and I felt like a god as my opponent angrily caused 0 wounds on me. -The Black Death just shreds through units, possibly even too much. I was running Wolf Lord + Runic Armour + Storm Shield + Black Death + Wulfen Stone and annihilated a Tyrannofex, a unit of 20 Devilgaunts and some Zoanthropes without even suffering a wound (yeah, not that impressive, but I can imagine the weapon being just as fearsome for anything else short of an EW).
-That said, the Wulfen Stone is better than I expected. I thought 40pts for Furious Charge and Rage was probably overcosted, but if you can get +1S on a large unit of Grey Hunters with a banner, you can be a legitimate threat to almost anything.
-Tempestus powers are kind of meh, I'm probably going to dabble with Biomancy and Divination in the future.
-The Wolves Unleashed detachment (or whatever it's called) is pretty cool, the lack of Objective Secured wasn't a deal-breaker for me by any means. Being able to take extra HQs seems to be worthwhile (of course, I don't particularly like being able to take unlimited detachments so YMMV depending on your house rulings).
All-in-all, I was mostly playing a "fun" game to see how my old units changed, so I don't mind that I lost. I'm happy with the new book, although I'll have to fiddle some more to see how I want to play it.
Played my first game with Njal under the new codex. First tempest power (living lightning) got perils. Is that a good sign?
I played a maelstrom of war mission and noticed that fenrisian wolves are an awesome tool now. 40 points for a 12" move unit that can score now. They can net you a VP each turn with securing objectives if you place them right during deployment. And it was hardly worth my opponents time to shoot at them as they were no real threat to his units
Khaine's Wrath wrote: Yeah, I took a read through the psychic powers, and I think biomancy is the discipline for me. There isn't really a bad power in that tree.
Yeah, I am confident that an RP with helm of durfast with ML2 biomancy will be a solid unit choice. Re-roll hits in CC and shooting, and you get ignore cover on smite and life leech. Have him on a bike leading some TWC, or bike/jump dudes and you should have a decent unit.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: Yeah, I took a read through the psychic powers, and I think biomancy is the discipline for me. There isn't really a bad power in that tree.
Yeah, I am confident that an RP with helm of durfast with ML2 biomancy will be a solid unit choice. Re-roll hits in CC and shooting, and you get ignore cover on smite and life leech. Have him on a bike leading some TWC, or bike/jump dudes and you should have a decent unit.
Wow, do his psychic attacks benefit from ignores cover too? I may have to squeeze some points from somewhere.....
Yeah, the helm is re-roll hits and ignores cover. Re-roll hits is pretty all encompassing. I want to try one with tempestus, I know it wont be optimal, but it might be fun.
Assuming for a moment you can take multiple relics (how in playing it) would it be any good to run the Helm with Black Death on a Thunderlord? He's hitting 7 attacks on the charge, re-rolling those could be pretty handy for hacking up... Well, anything really.
Paradigm wrote: Assuming for a moment you can take multiple relics (how in playing it) would it be any good to run the Helm with Black Death on a Thunderlord? He's hitting 7 attacks on the charge, re-rolling those could be pretty handy for hacking up... Well, anything really.
Haha, imagine that alongside the Wulfen stone? Rage and furious charge thrown in the mix?
Paradigm wrote: Assuming for a moment you can take multiple relics (how in playing it) would it be any good to run the Helm with Black Death on a Thunderlord? He's hitting 7 attacks on the charge, re-rolling those could be pretty handy for hacking up... Well, anything really.
Haha, imagine that alongside the Wulfen stone? Rage and furious charge thrown in the mix?
With a Thunderwolf bodyguard? SOLD! I know what's going in my next list...
Side note, do Rage and Black Death stack? I can't see why they wouldn't, and 9 attacks on the charge sounds pretty fething awesome.
Paradigm wrote: Assuming for a moment you can take multiple relics (how in playing it) would it be any good to run the Helm with Black Death on a Thunderlord? He's hitting 7 attacks on the charge, re-rolling those could be pretty handy for hacking up... Well, anything really.
Haha, imagine that alongside the Wulfen stone? Rage and furious charge thrown in the mix?
With a Thunderwolf bodyguard? SOLD! I know what's going in my next list...
Side note, do Rage and Black Death stack? I can't see why they wouldn't, and 9 attacks on the charge sounds pretty fething awesome.
They should do. I can't imagine a reason they wouldn't.
Wolf Lord with Thunderwolves Mount, Helm of Durfast, The Wulfenstone, Black Death, Runic Armour and a Storm Shield comes to 275 points. Throw in 5 Thunderwolf Cavalry for 200 points. On the charge, it will put out 30 S6 Rending attacks and 9 S8 AP2 attacks on the charge, the latter re-rolling hits. Not a lot can stand up against that.
Paradigm wrote: Wolf Lord with Thunderwolves Mount, Helm of Durfast, The Wulfenstone, Black Death, Runic Armour and a Storm Shield comes to 275 points. Throw in 5 Thunderwolf Cavalry for 200 points. On the charge, it will put out 30 S6 Rending attacks and 9 S8 AP2 attacks on the charge, the latter re-rolling hits. Not a lot can stand up against that.
If you didn't take the shield (a conversation you and I have had many a time) and instead took a pistol.... It's 10 attacks. Hence my Lord has the black death and the Wulfen stone. If you wanted to go mental, you could give him the armour of russ and be striking most challenges at the same time... But I feel that a waste of points.
I am personally taking a wolf guard battle leader on wolf with armor of russ and a pair of wolf claws. I am gaining a 4+ invul and a -5 init in challenge for 10 more points that I would be spending on the 2+ save anyway. I like that he can challenge, go before almost all enemies and even if they are save 2+ I got rending with shred the rest of the squad can put the hurt on and hopefully bleed over. If not most of the things I need to worry about are save 3+ or worse anyway.
Paradigm wrote: Wolf Lord with Thunderwolves Mount, Helm of Durfast, The Wulfenstone, Black Death, Runic Armour and a Storm Shield comes to 275 points. Throw in 5 Thunderwolf Cavalry for 200 points. On the charge, it will put out 30 S6 Rending attacks and 9 S8 AP2 attacks on the charge, the latter re-rolling hits. Not a lot can stand up against that.
If you didn't take the shield (a conversation you and I have had many a time) and instead took a pistol.... It's 10 attacks. Hence my Lord has the black death and the Wulfen stone. If you wanted to go mental, you could give him the armour of russ and be striking most challenges at the same time... But I feel that a waste of points.
It would almost be worth it, just to max out in attacks for the hell of it. But as you know I swear by the shield and I'm pretty sure what 9 S8 AP2 attacks won't kill, 10 won't do much better.
Leth wrote:I am personally taking a wolf guard battle leader on wolf with armor of russ and a pair of wolf claws. I am gaining a 4+ invul and a -5 init in challenge for 10 more points that I would be spending on the 2+ save anyway. I like that he can challenge, go before almost all enemies and even if they are save 2+ I got rending with shred the rest of the squad can put the hurt on and hopefully bleed over. If not most of the things I need to worry about are save 3+ or worse anyway.
Sounds like a good use of the armour, making sure you swing first. Out of interest why a WGBL rather than a Wolf Lord? Just points?
So lets say for a wolf guard you go from 2 wounds to 3, that is a 50% increase. However for a wolf lord it is a 25% increase. Same deal for attacks. Basically for the points you are investing you are getting a reduced return(assuming that they are pointed correctly for their initial points)
Also if I am using the armor of russ I am getting the 2+(which costs 25) so I am only spending 10 points for a 4+ invul as well as a the initiative mechanic. Once again these are things that are factored into the cost of the lord that I would not be getting a benefit from.
So for 50 points with a lord I am getting +1 atk, wound, ld and weapon skill. Not worth it IMO. for those points I can get another thunderwolf with storm shield.
Which would you rather have? Wolf lord or wolf guard battle leader and a thunderwolf with storm shield?
So right now my WGBL and a thunderwolf with storm shield 220 points. A wolf lord with the same equipment is 220 points
So thats a total of 5 wounds versus 4. 2 of which are at 3+ invul
Thats a total of 5 wolf claw attacks and 4 regular attacks versus 6 wolf claw attacks
actually......now that I am thinking about it, it would make sense to just have him with one wolf claw and then put wolf claw stormshield on a second thunderwolf for the extra 10 points.....
Interesting, and certainly valid. I'd never looked at it like that before. Honestly, I'd still go with the Lord as I like the more concentrated wounds and killing power, and also because, as I'm not taking the Relic Armour, I'm not paying for a 4++ that's not getting used. But I can certainly see where you're coming from.
It is the same reason that a single lightning claw is good on a person with more attacks per point than buying two lightning claws.....Which means it probably makes more sense to have something else with the claws instead of a pair.
All with thunderwolf other builds I am considering:
WGBL - Russ, two claws
WGBL - Russ, Death
WGBL - Runic, Claw/shield
Its probably what I will end up going with, but I want to try the armor and see if the challenge mechanic is worth giving up the 3+ invul for about the same points. Also I forgot wolf lords get runic armor for 5 points cheaper.
I think the main reason for the WGBL is that the wolf lord does not have a way to get eternal warrior, and thus against a lot of the targets I am worried about the extra wound is not going to get me very far if that makes sense.
pretre wrote: Also, keep in mind that any WGBL and TWC Pack Leaders get PE when part of a CoF detachment. and TWC get +1 WS.
Only when in a challenge for PE, or when part of that specific detachment, not a general detachment from the book.
Although the krakenbone being at init ap2 is very tempting.... STR 6 on a thunderwolf, rerolling 1 miss always(which most of the time might as well be 1 extra attack) re-rolling 1s from preferred enemy in a challenge...
I might have to look at that, considering the only thing I am losing is the armor of russ as a option that I would take.
So lets see, 35 points for the kraken instead of the black death. You are getting 1 attack(from master crafted) instead of D3 attacks, You are one less strength, but at initiative. Man that is a tough call.
You can take the Armor from CoF instead of the Armor of Russ. It's basically Terminator Armor that isn't Terminator Armor, so you can wear it on a TWC.
Nobody has mentioned anything about the murderfangs yet...are they not even worth considering? It seems like if you dropped enough of them into enemy lines with pods, they'd have a hard time ensuring that nothing got hit.
xlEternitylx wrote: Nobody has mentioned anything about the murderfangs yet...are they not even worth considering? It seems like if you dropped enough of them into enemy lines with pods, they'd have a hard time ensuring that nothing got hit.
xlEternitylx wrote: Nobody has mentioned anything about the murderfangs yet...are they not even worth considering? It seems like if you dropped enough of them into enemy lines with pods, they'd have a hard time ensuring that nothing got hit.
Murderfang is unique, isn't he?
....totally missed that one! So let me rephrase: What about dreadnaughts (with murderfang tossed in) that are outfitted with the blizzard shield and axe? With the 3++ (and venerable) they'd likely survive long enough to hit their target, especially if podded in.
xlEternitylx wrote: Nobody has mentioned anything about the murderfangs yet...are they not even worth considering? It seems like if you dropped enough of them into enemy lines with pods, they'd have a hard time ensuring that nothing got hit.
Murderfang is unique, isn't he?
Yeup!
He is not something to just aim at the enemy, you need to support him.
>Part of a drop Pod Army
>Give him a wall of bodies and/or Tanks to follow in giving him mobile cover.
Murderfang will be part of my dreadnaught army once I get enough dreads to run it.
Doing some points/returns analysis right now will post it when I am done.
I am thinking against MEQ, Tyranid monstrous stat line, anything else?
All builds will have thunder wolf and a 2+ with some form of invul.
So here are the stats for a basic thunder wolf attack hitting on fours with different equipment against different toughness and saves. This is per attack, not per wolf.
A Wolf with fist does .417 wounds to everyone
A Claw does more than A fist at str 4/str 5 but less at str 6 and against 2+ save targets
and a naked wolf does about .1 to .15 wounds per attack against the range of targets
So I think a mix is good, simply because you have attacks at initiative.
Leth wrote: I am personally taking a wolf guard battle leader on wolf with armor of russ and a pair of wolf claws. I am gaining a 4+ invul and a -5 init in challenge for 10 more points that I would be spending on the 2+ save anyway. I like that he can challenge, go before almost all enemies and even if they are save 2+ I got rending with shred the rest of the squad can put the hurt on and hopefully bleed over. If not most of the things I need to worry about are save 3+ or worse anyway.
Have you thought about powerfist and wolf claw, you still get the +1 attack from two weapons and the choice of higher strength attacks/instant death attacks when you need them
I have thought about it, but I think it would be better to put the second weapon on another model.
that way I get the benefit all the time instead of just when I think I need it.
Especially now that I looked at the math and saw that Thunderwolves without weapons dont do much. for an extra 50% they increase their killing power by 3 times against most marine targets
JesusFreak wrote: Is it just me or is Logan not really worth taking anymore? Save, perhaps, as part of the Champions of Fenris supplement.
Actually I think he is very viable.
Without his Chariot him and a Wolf Guard Terminator Pack out of Stormwolf can inflict a lot of damage.
With his Charaot if properly supported is going to be a beast in close combat and very durable.
JesusFreak wrote: Is it just me or is Logan not really worth taking anymore? Save, perhaps, as part of the Champions of Fenris supplement.
Actually I think he is very viable.
Without his Chariot him and a Wolf Guard Terminator Pack out of Stormwolf can inflict a lot of damage.
With his Charaot if properly supported is going to be a beast in close combat and very durable.
In general I think he's actually better than he was before, but he's so expensive that I wouldn't consider even taking him under... oh, 2500pts probably. Although if you wanted to trolololol in Stormrider, then you could theoretically turn him into a one-man pimp-slapping deathstar in a lower pointed game.
That said, this is pretty much how I approached him before anyway, so on those rare occasions where I bust him out, he should be even more effective.
JesusFreak wrote: Is it just me or is Logan not really worth taking anymore? Save, perhaps, as part of the Champions of Fenris supplement.
Actually I think he is very viable.
Without his Chariot him and a Wolf Guard Terminator Pack out of Stormwolf can inflict a lot of damage.
With his Charaot if properly supported is going to be a beast in close combat and very durable.
I must be missing something I think. The chariot is a liability in close combat. Glance it 3 times and say goodbye to Logan.
Well you need to be able to glance it 6 times, hitting against logans weapon skill to reliably get through the invul, against armor 12. In addition you have to have enough people survive logans attacks to do it.
Very few units can actually do that in CC.
300 points of Logan backed up by two units of T cav and a few podding units......pretty solid.
Leth wrote: Well you need to be able to glance it 6 times, hitting against logans weapon skill to reliably get through the invul, against armor 12. In addition you have to have enough people survive logans attacks to do it.
Very few units can actually do that in CC.
300 points of Logan backed up by two units of T cav and a few podding units......pretty solid.
More easily than you'd think. Saw it happen yesterday...10 DC charged Logan. He swung first, only took out 2 marines. In return, the DC caused 10 wounds...he didn't last one round of combat.
I honestly don't see how Logan is supposedly better now. He lost the high king rule for a start, gained a wound and the chariot is situationally better at best.
Truly, I think a tooled up wolf lord on thunderwolves hits much harder and is.more resilient for less points.
In all fairness, that is on logan for letting himself get stuck in a bad combat for him, that has nothing to do with the chariot. Unless it was a unprecidented charge range, there is no way the chariot should have been caught.
Leth wrote: In all fairness, that is on logan for letting himself get stuck in a bad combat for him, that has nothing to do with the chariot. Unless it was a unprecidented charge range, there is no way the chariot should have been caught.
I agree. I walked in to the gw store just before this happened. The DC disembarked from a LRC and then charged Logan...I didn't stay long enough to figure out if the space wolf player was just playing poorly. I think its liked he was.
As a hardcore sw enthusiast, I was pretty devastated to see Logan get owned.
So what do people think to paying the points for psychic hoods on rune priests? I have a rune priest kitted out as my warlord as follows - mastery level 2, armour of russ, Helm of durfast, bite of fenris and psychic hood. So he should strike most things at the same time with his unweildy force axe. He should hit with most as he Re rolls to hit. And if he has no chance of making combat he has a ignores cover Bolter that will hit more often than not with hellfrost.
Leth wrote: In all fairness, that is on logan for letting himself get stuck in a bad combat for him, that has nothing to do with the chariot. Unless it was a unprecidented charge range, there is no way the chariot should have been caught.
I agree. I walked in to the gw store just before this happened. The DC disembarked from a LRC and then charged Logan...I didn't stay long enough to figure out if the space wolf player was just playing poorly. I think its liked he was.
As a hardcore sw enthusiast, I was pretty devastated to see Logan get owned.
And don't tell me that, just finished building santa and his sleigh.... Looking forward to slamming it into a riptide...
Khaine's Wrath wrote: So what do people think to paying the points for psychic hoods on rune priests? I have a rune priest kitted out as my warlord as follows - mastery level 2, armour of russ, Helm of durfast, bite of fenris and psychic hood. So he should strike most things at the same time with his unweildy force axe. He should hit with most as he Re rolls to hit. And if he has no chance of making combat he has a ignores cover Bolter that will hit more often than not with hellfrost.
Leth wrote: In all fairness, that is on logan for letting himself get stuck in a bad combat for him, that has nothing to do with the chariot. Unless it was a unprecidented charge range, there is no way the chariot should have been caught.
I agree. I walked in to the gw store just before this happened. The DC disembarked from a LRC and then charged Logan...I didn't stay long enough to figure out if the space wolf player was just playing poorly. I think its liked he was.
As a hardcore sw enthusiast, I was pretty devastated to see Logan get owned.
And don't tell me that, just finished building santa and his sleigh.... Looking forward to slamming it into a riptide...
That was one incident that we don't have all of the facts on. I once had a single Gretchen Model kill three Khorne Berserkers in Close Combat in two turns [this was back in 2nd].
I think we need to see more before we can call him a poor unit.
Im trying out two Venerable with Axe and Shield in my next game, both in pods ofc. Added a third pod to get them on the table turn 1. Im having quite high expectations for them so we will see. In my head it will be glorious slaughter haha!
Grimm_81 wrote: Im trying out two Venerable with Axe and Shield in my next game, both in pods ofc. Added a third pod to get them on the table turn 1. Im having quite high expectations for them so we will see. In my head it will be glorious slaughter haha!
You should consider the formation in Champions of Fenris "Brethren of the Fell-Handed". It's basically Bjorn + 2 venerable dreadnoughts. As long as they stay near Bjorn, they get a 5++. They also get Adamantium Will for free, and can reroll hits in CC as long as Bjorn is alive (even if they aren't within 6" of him).
Grimm_81 wrote: Im trying out two Venerable with Axe and Shield in my next game, both in pods ofc. Added a third pod to get them on the table turn 1. Im having quite high expectations for them so we will see. In my head it will be glorious slaughter haha!
You should consider the formation in Champions of Fenris "Brethren of the Fell-Handed". It's basically Bjorn + 2 venerable dreadnoughts. As long as they stay near Bjorn, they get a 5++. They also get Adamantium Will for free, and can reroll hits in CC as long as Bjorn is alive (even if they aren't within 6" of him).
Saw the models online for it but have not looked into it. Bjorn however is a tad on the expensive side. On the other hand you no longer need the Venerable status for an invul (albeit 5++ not 3++) and dont need the axe/shield combo so a few points off there..
I got to see a venerable with shield in action a few weeks back. It was pretty awesome, the dreadnought was able to shrug off everything thanks to the ++3 save. Never even took a HP. Brethren of the fell handed could make for an interesting first wave of pods.
I am cloudy on the chariot rules, and couldn't see anything about it in the BRB, but Logan will still be I1 if he swings 2 handed in the chariot right?
No one got any insight on rune priests taking psychic hoods? I have a feeling they're a waste of points when I can take a Combi Melta on my GH WGPL in a pod.
Leth wrote: Well you need to be able to glance it 6 times, hitting against logans weapon skill to reliably get through the invul, against armor 12. In addition you have to have enough people survive logans attacks to do it.
Very few units can actually do that in CC.
300 points of Logan backed up by two units of T cav and a few podding units......pretty solid.
More easily than you'd think. Saw it happen yesterday...10 DC charged Logan. He swung first, only took out 2 marines. In return, the DC caused 10 wounds...he didn't last one round of combat.
I honestly don't see how Logan is supposedly better now. He lost the high king rule for a start, gained a wound and the chariot is situationally better at best.
Truly, I think a tooled up wolf lord on thunderwolves hits much harder and is.more resilient for less points.
These are my thoughts exactly.
A kitted out TW lord do basicly the exact same thing as Logan. He is litteraly just attacks with some S and ap. A unit ov TWC sould probably be far superior, sadly. To bad he dont have any rules at all that affect the army as a whole.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: So what do people think to paying the points for psychic hoods on rune priests? I have a rune priest kitted out as my warlord as follows - mastery level 2, armour of russ, Helm of durfast, bite of fenris and psychic hood. So he should strike most things at the same time with his unweildy force axe. He should hit with most as he Re rolls to hit. And if he has no chance of making combat he has a ignores cover Bolter that will hit more often than not with hellfrost.
Any thoughts?
I definitely was happy for bringing a psychic hood during my battle, it saved me on a couple occasions from witchfires and a malediction. ML2 + Adamantium Will mean that the Rune Priest is going to be nullifying non-blessings on a 4 or 3+.
What is the genereal oppinion on gearing up the WGBL or Lord offensively? There are SO many options...
Dual Claw
Claw / Fist
Black Death
Frostsword
Thunderhammer
Sword is good since you get one hand free, decent AP and not striking last. Black Death is kind of situational but possibly could be a killer. Dual claw is good but maybe a Claw/Fist combo to be more versatile...
I keep shifting back and forth between all of them... Advice!
Grimm_81 wrote: What is the genereal oppinion on gearing up the WGBL or Lord offensively? There are SO many options...
Dual Claw
Claw / Fist
Black Death
Frostsword
Thunderhammer
Sword is good since you get one hand free, decent AP and not striking last. Black Death is kind of situational but possibly could be a killer. Dual claw is good but maybe a Claw/Fist combo to be more versatile...
I keep shifting back and forth between all of them... Advice!
For the Wolf Lord the Wolf Claw/Power Fist is a good combo. Along with the Frost Sword and Bolt Pistol/Plasma Pistol might be good. If you don't mind going off on I1 Black Death and a Storm Shield or Bolt Pistol/Plasma Pistol for the extra Attack.
For the WGBL...The Frost Sword and a Storm Shield unless you don't mind going of in I1 Black Death.
In running Black Death, Storm Shield, Runic Armour and a Thunderwolf Mount. He's dead hard to put down, gets a ton of attacks on the charge, and looks awesome!
Paradigm wrote: In running Black Death, Storm Shield, Runic Armour and a Thunderwolf Mount. He's dead hard to put down, gets a ton of attacks on the charge, and looks awesome!
This is exactly what I'm running. 205 points of pure awesomeness. Give him a little TWC bodyguard and he's a tank.
I also have a rune priest at level 2 with the armour of russ and the Helm. I've used the krom dragongaze model and put a different head on him. I'll upload a picture if people are interested....
Automatically Appended Next Post: (I'm also running the Wulfen stone on him for some rage and furious charge goodness)
Yup, Black Death is definitely worth it. Even if it doesn't get the attacks bonus, +2S AP2 is still more than worth it for what you pay. However, if you're running him with TWC or Termies or the like, then you'll be outnumbered more often than not.
Also, is the attacks bonus calculated at the start of the fight sub-phase, or when it's the character's turn to attack? The wording is ambiguous enough that I wasn't really sure how to play it.
Have you thought about powerfist and wolf claw, you still get the +1 attack from two weapons and the choice of higher strength attacks/instant death attacks when you need them
wolf claw is a specialist weapon while the fist is not so you wouldn't be able to get the bonus attack for that combo
Have you thought about powerfist and wolf claw, you still get the +1 attack from two weapons and the choice of higher strength attacks/instant death attacks when you need them
wolf claw is a specialist weapon while the fist is not so you wouldn't be able to get the bonus attack for that combo
The List of Specialist Weapons Available to Space Wolves
>Chain Fist [Requires Terminator Armor]
>Power Fist [Yes it is a Specialist Weapon]
>Thunder Hammers
>Wolf Claws
Have you thought about powerfist and wolf claw, you still get the +1 attack from two weapons and the choice of higher strength attacks/instant death attacks when you need them
wolf claw is a specialist weapon while the fist is not so you wouldn't be able to get the bonus attack for that combo
The List of Specialist Weapons Available to Space Wolves
>Chain Fist [Requires Terminator Armor]
>Power Fist [Yes it is a Specialist Weapon]
>Thunder Hammers
>Wolf Claws
Have you thought about powerfist and wolf claw, you still get the +1 attack from two weapons and the choice of higher strength attacks/instant death attacks when you need them
wolf claw is a specialist weapon while the fist is not so you wouldn't be able to get the bonus attack for that combo
The List of Specialist Weapons Available to Space Wolves
>Chain Fist [Requires Terminator Armor]
>Power Fist [Yes it is a Specialist Weapon]
>Thunder Hammers
>Wolf Claws
Well then good on ya! Was it that way in 6th?
Yeup, that is where the Wolf Claw/Power Fist and Wolf Claw/Chain Fist combos got their Start
Not sure if I saw this covered yet, but Iron Priest on a Twolf, 105 points and unless I am missing something:
4 base attacks at S10 AP2 (2 base, +1 for Twolf mount, +1 for the combination of Thunder Hammer and Servo-arm).
2+ 6++ (Runic Armor).
Seems like a pretty sweet deal before factoring that he can repair HP, even in close combat (assuming this works, I am going off the wording in the codex of "instead of shooting).
Even if he can't repair stuff in CC he can repair something like a Venerable Dredd that's locked in CC before he charges in.
Twolf adds to the base statline, not a modifier like Furious Charge, unless I am getting that wrong, 5th ed characters on Twolves had S10 if striking with a PF or TH.
More Dakka wrote: Twolf adds to the base statline, not a modifier like Furious Charge, unless I am getting that wrong, 5th ed characters on Twolves had S10 if striking with a PF or TH.
No you are not getting it wrong. Thunderwolves make you S5, not 4[5]
More Dakka wrote: Twolf adds to the base statline, not a modifier like Furious Charge, unless I am getting that wrong, 5th ed characters on Twolves had S10 if striking with a PF or TH.
No you are not getting it wrong. Thunderwolves make you S5, not 4[5]
This is being debated in another thread. Not here please.
I do like the Iron Priest as a 105pts cc beatstick on a TW.
However when running Lords/WGBL with TWC you do need a few of them to soak damage. 3 TWC will not be enough against AM, Tau or Eldar or Gravspam even with shields. Im running 5 TWC with 3 shields and the WGBL but against shooty armies that is barely enough. They have a HUGE bullseye on their foreheads and will in most games have to endure a hail of incoming fire.
I did think that. And I did think about dropping a stormfang to increase the units survivability. I currently run my WGBL with 3 TWC all with Shields. I'm thinking about dropping my 255 point stormfang and investing it in increasing the TWC. Maybe add 2 more wolves and an IP.
About the Iron Priest on TW, just for comparison since the IP seems like a very popular choice atm which im not arguing against. Just offering food for thought.
Ironpriest on Wolf is 4A S10 on the charge with the hammer, 2+/6++ and 1W. A regular TWC with Thunderhammer is 5A on the charge, and additional wound and 35pts cheaper, 25pts cheaper if you buy a Stormshield giving it 3+/3++. With one more attack, one more wound and alot better invulsave (although only 3+ regular) is the Priest really worth the additional 25pt given you dont take the Cyberwolves into account?
Khaine's Wrath wrote: And add to that young can split him off with yourord/battle leader for some protection whilst making use of the black death.
Good point, splitting of the IP and Lord/WGBL to mess up an additional unit.... Damnit, I might have to revise my list.. Again...
Haha. Well I feel your point about needing more TWC to protect him is true. As he is a bullet magnet. But the black death requires you to have less models than you're charging to use its full effect. So if you throw a priest in I can have 5 guys soaking up fire power, and then when I'm ready to charge I can split the WGBL and IP off and more than likely be able to gain the additional attacks. I can use the IP to take the brunt of over watch. And I can also use him to accept challenges I don't want to fight in.
I'm going to run a WGBL with runic, black death, Wulfen stone and SS on a wolf with a IP on a wolf, and 5 TWC. 3 SS, 1 PF, 2 WC, and 2 pairs of WC. Should eat the board up.
The main reason you'd take an Iron Priest TWC is because of the 2+ armour, which is significantly cheaper than if you were to take a tanking Wolf Lord or Battle Leader to do the same thing. The 4 S10 Hammer attacks are just gravy and further reason to do it.
Isnt the iron priest 5 on the charge attacks as well?
2 base
1 from TWC 1 from servo-arm+TH 1 from charge.
Iron priest is also AP1 thanks to servo arm, so he can take down vehicles better than just about anything in the book outside of melta.
The only issue I have was pointed out, is he is like 35pt more than the TWC/TH for the same statline. Though you gain runic armor, AP1 and the ability for cyberwolves. I havent tried it, but I have already converted one up. I plan on using him soon to see how I like that +2/++6.
Black death does seem like a nice go-to weapon. For 5pt more than a frost axe you get the chance at additional attacks.
Servo arm ins't a single attack anymore. Just a melee, unwieldy, specialist weapon. No reason it should be limited to a single attack. S10, AP1, rending. Go go ability to pen AV18!
Yeah I am thinking of using him as an extra extra beatstick/bullet soaker in a Twolf unit, that 2+ gives him a lot more durability.
I'm also considering using a ML2 RP with Helm of Durp and Biomancy in my Twolf list.
If he gets stuck with all the shooting powers the helm will make him pretty beastly, if he gets all the self-buffs like Iron Arm and Warpspeed he's also great, and if he gets Endurance, well, those Twolves will just be ridiculously hard to kill (assuming I can get the power off).
Yeah I am thinking of using him as an extra extra beatstick/bullet soaker in a Twolf unit, that 2+ gives him a lot more durability.
I'm also considering using a ML2 RP with Helm of Durp and Biomancy in my Twolf list.
If he gets stuck with all the shooting powers the helm will make him pretty beastly, if he gets all the self-buffs like Iron Arm and Warpspeed he's also great, and if he gets Endurance, well, those Twolves will just be ridiculously hard to kill (assuming I can get the power off).
I have been wanting to see how a rune priest with that loadout will work for a while. Still working on converting up another priest that can ride a bike, as both mine are pewter. Worst case with biomancy is he gets hemorrhage.
gwarsh41 wrote: Servo arm ins't a single attack anymore. Just a melee, unwieldy, specialist weapon. No reason it should be limited to a single attack. S10, AP1, rending. Go go ability to pen AV18!
Oh. My. God. I stand corrected. Rune priests on thunderwolfs kick butt.
gwarsh41 wrote: Servo arm ins't a single attack anymore. Just a melee, unwieldy, specialist weapon. No reason it should be limited to a single attack. S10, AP1, rending. Go go ability to pen AV18!
Oh. My. God. I stand corrected. Rune priests on thunderwolfs kick butt.
Yeah! If you want an awesome iron priest model for your TWC. the stormfang pilot is almost exactly like the metal iron priest. You will just be missing the servo arm. Both have the long snout with cables going into it, the chest isn't as awesome, but the shoulderpads are the same.
Its had some work, but you get the general idea. Arm is made from necron bits, has a second arm, but I decide against it.
Really easy to jam a magnet up into the torso of the model too. That way I can swap out between iron priest, HQ, or standard TWC without needing tons of models.
I had a leftover pilot head from a stormtalon I think, or it might have been from a bits bag. Any who, that head and general space wolves chest and shoulders.
Can you take the Cyberwolves and still attach him to a unit? That would significantly increase his awesomeness esp as a bullet magnet for a Twolf unit.
On another topic, anyone taken a good look at Arjak? He dropped in points by a good heap, still has Eternal Warrior, and can come in with a suicide squad of drop podding TAWG to give them a decent chance of surviving the return fire. Not to mention that sweet BS5 S10 AP2 Concussive shot he can take when he comes in.
You could even split him off on the drop and shoot down a 2nd target with him as long as you move out of coherency.
More Dakka wrote: Can you take the Cyberwolves and still attach him to a unit? That would significantly increase his awesomeness esp as a bullet magnet for a Twolf unit.
On another topic, anyone taken a good look at Arjak? He dropped in points by a good heap, still has Eternal Warrior, and can come in with a suicide squad of drop podding TAWG to give them a decent chance of surviving the return fire. Not to mention that sweet BS5 S10 AP2 Concussive shot he can take when he comes in.
You could even split him off on the drop and shoot down a 2nd target with him as long as you move out of coherency.
Arjac seems like a no-brainer to me if you're running Termies, unless you're very tight on points. He was awesome at 180pts, but at 115pts with no nerfs (aside from only being able to join Wolf Guard now), he's amazing. Since my Wolf Lord can't take EW anymore, I'm thinking of sticking him with Arjac to take on any challengers while the Lord goes to town with the Black Death.
Leth wrote: Also hate to be nitpicky but he still has some flash on the front of the hammer.
Also another thing to add to your calculations is access to cyberwolves which really aid in the ability of your techpriest to tank for the unit.
AP 2 dead cyberwolves.
Oh yeah, I know about the flash. That pic was taken right after I got his posing right. Sometimes I get really excited about my work and like to take pictures before it is done. There was a bundle of cleanup afterwards. Filed the front of that hammer down too, I dislike how some thunderhammers have partially rounded faces.
So I have some TDA now thanks to the Stormclaw box. I have them all magnetized so they can preform virtually any role. I even have a set of 5 TDA power swords on its way (don't have combi weapons yet, that will take some time) I want to pick up arjac because he is awesome. Do you guys think a Landraider will be useful for anything outside of the Arjac formation? I owned one back in 5th, but never really used it. If I was to get one, which one would be the optimal choice?
I'd get a Land Raider Crusader, as it works great as a delivery method for any CC unit while working with the medium range of the army. Fifteen Blood Claws with a priest or Termites, Arjac and attached TDA priest would both kick some ass.
undertak1983 wrote: For 715 pts. You can have 3 full units of Long Fangs with Lascannons situated around Ulrik The Slayer.
That's 15 Lascannons with Preferred Enemy. With a 3+ to hit and reroll all 1s, that can be devastating.
If you'd rather have Missile Launchers, that's only 640pts to do the same.
I would love to hear how that lascannon spam works. Would you bastion, ADL or skyshield them to protect them from drop pods, deep strikers, outflankers and ordinance?
In regard to the Lascannon Spam Long Fangs, a decent option is the Bunker from Stronghold Assault (and before legality debates set in, just a heads up that I assume if you use ADL or Bastions that this thing is acceptable for the local meta,l as it is from the same book).
It's short points if I recall correctly, something like 55. It has a rule allowing more models to shoot from its' fire points than usual (I think it's 4 each and it has two of them). It has Battlements and can take some upgrades, too. I believe it holds 20 models and is AV14. Pretty good protection for the cost!
undertak1983 wrote: For 715 pts. You can have 3 full units of Long Fangs with Lascannons situated around Ulrik The Slayer.
That's 15 Lascannons with Preferred Enemy. With a 3+ to hit and reroll all 1s, that can be devastating.
If you'd rather have Missile Launchers, that's only 640pts to do the same.
I would love to hear how that lascannon spam works. Would you bastion, ADL or skyshield them to protect them from drop pods, deep strikers, outflankers and ordinance?
I haven't had to worry about drop pods since I'm the only space marine player amongst my friends. I'll have to try out bastions, ADL, and bunkers to see how that works for them. The only think I've done for extra protection is upgrading the long fang ancient to Wolf Guard leader with terminator armor to soak up fire and/or putting them in ruins for a 4+ cover save. So far that has been enough. Time will tell.
Well a lot of the other options protect them to the point where they can't even be hurt by small arms, so that's the only reason I advocate for the Bunker. YMMV of course.
so has anyone put the cost togther to put a WP and a RP on bikes and attach them to a TWC star yet? i am at work, but i wonder how much that would run and weather it would be worth it. i imagen a WP and RP on bikes in a 6 TWC awith lords, it literly makes my jaw hurt the smile i get.
Slipknotzim wrote: so has anyone put the cost togther to put a WP and a RP on bikes and attach them to a TWC star yet? i am at work, but i wonder how much that would run and weather it would be worth it. i imagen a WP and RP on bikes in a 6 TWC awith lords, it literly makes my jaw hurt the smile i get.
I dunno... sounds like super overkill to sink that many points into 1 unit...
With a unit that has that many models it would be very easy to get a few multi charges off(cyber wolves give you a HUGE reach).
However I have been learning in my games that you really want your death stars turned into death star lite. Sure you are not at 100% but the number of times I have been enfeebled and then just wiped out or marker lighted and just lit up.......
I've been thinking of getting a Stormwolf/fang, but I'm not sure what I'd assemble it as. If I was mainly going to use it as a gunship, what would be better?
A large blast ap3 with a chance to kill multi wound creatures outright isnt bad. Imo if you dont care for a flyer transport av the points are close enough to justify taking the gun ship. And you can still put some guys in it to drop somewhere if ya want.
I think the transport is the best version, its got assault vehicle, can be a dedicated transport for troops and can fit a full pack of blood claws in it
I built mine as a gunship. The cannon with Lance is too hard to pass up. Drop pods are better troop delivery systems. Unless you're set on taking a max size BC squad there's really no reason to go with the transport. The meta right now is heavy on MSU so 5 man GH squads are my preference, which go very well in the flying cannon.
Toofast wrote: I built mine as a gunship. The cannon with Lance is too hard to pass up. Drop pods are better troop delivery systems. Unless you're set on taking a max size BC squad there's really no reason to go with the transport. The meta right now is heavy on MSU so 5 man GH squads are my preference, which go very well in the flying cannon.
I think this is debatable. I'm not saying you're wrong. The large blast and Lance is very nice. BUT the wolf's cannon is twin linked, and that arguably makes it better than large blast. Also it comes with Lascannons as standard and you only have to pay for meltas. Makes it a whole wolf claw cheaper than the gunship...
In fairness neither are bad. I just personally think the transport can do the gunships job AND dies a decent transport job. Possibly even better if you have a landing pad!
Wilytank wrote: I've been thinking of getting a Stormwolf/fang, but I'm not sure what I'd assemble it as. If I was mainly going to use it as a gunship, what would be better?
Mavnas wrote: Don't most of the guns have limited firing arcs? This seems like it would be problematic on a zooming flyer.
Yes, the gunship is problematic with line of sight.
Im going for the transport all the way:
Turret and twin linked makes more than enough up for the smaller blast.
Also full unit + IC in a fast assault vehicle.
+ objective secure.
I can't believe that no-one has raised this point yet, but in Champions of Fenris you can take Servitors in units of 1 for 10 points each to fill your compulsory troop choices.
Since you can take up to 8 elite slots, you can have 8 models just derping on your objectives while the rest of your min-maxed army wreaks merry havoc.
Also TWC with Power Fists are some of the most brutally efficient close combat units in the game: 5 WS 5 Str 10 attacks for 65 points on a 12" moving, fleet, ignores terrain 2W platform that can be protected by: Invisibility, 2+ armour saves and 3++ shield saves. Add Wolf Priests for preferred enemy and FNP; Wolf Lord to tank with Runic. TWCs are a hard counter to the melee monster du jour, Imperial Knights, in particular the Adamantine Lance formation of 4++/3++ rerollable Ion shields. 20 Str 10 attacks hitting on 3+ rerolling 1s and glancing on 3+ rerolling 1s will absolutely wreck any Knight before it can Stomp, and you can have your wolves absorb any D hits.
I'm starting to lean towards the Stormwolf more now since I have had problems with fliers and this one's weapons seem better suited to taking them out. The Helfrost guns are short ranged either way, but TL against fliers are better than Lance which won't matter most of the time against fliers anyway.
Awesome! What was your list? I tried looking back through the thread but couldn't find it :\
I finally picked up a copy of the book, so far it's the most interesting power armor book out there IMO. Any minor nerfs seem to have been made up by big buffs and overall internal balance. We'll see how the army does on the whole against the general meta but I think in the semi-competitive realm it will be solid and fun at the same time.
I am taking a shine to Bjorn in higher point lists (1850-2000).
I feel like his significant points drop, the ability to now take a Drop Pod (for less than he used to cost at base price) and removal of kneecapping special rules make him a solid choice to head up a big distracting drop pod spear head.
Oh and his claw got better too
My only main concern is what ranged weapon to equip him with.
The Assault Cannon is solid, but not sure it's really going to make much of an impact against most targets, even rerolling 1's to hit with 6's
Plasma Cannon is always handy, esp subtracting 6 from a scatter. Given that he's BS6 he does get to re-roll a Get's Hot result.
Hellfrost Cannon also seems solid. He's got a 2+ to hit with it and a 1/6 chance to insta-kill a MC if he wounds it.
TL Las-Cannon is the only option I am not a fan of at all. I mean, I like Las Cannons, but a single one isn't going to do much of anything and I hate paying more for upgrades that really should be free. Am I missing something on this?
More Dakka wrote: Awesome! What was your list? I tried looking back through the thread but couldn't find it :\
I finally picked up a copy of the book, so far it's the most interesting power armor book out there IMO. Any minor nerfs seem to have been made up by big buffs and overall internal balance. We'll see how the army does on the whole against the general meta but I think in the semi-competitive realm it will be solid and fun at the same time.
I am taking a shine to Bjorn in higher point lists (1850-2000).
I feel like his significant points drop, the ability to now take a Drop Pod (for less than he used to cost at base price) and removal of kneecapping special rules make him a solid choice to head up a big distracting drop pod spear head.
Oh and his claw got better too
My only main concern is what ranged weapon to equip him with.
The Assault Cannon is solid, but not sure it's really going to make much of an impact against most targets, even rerolling 1's to hit with 6's
Plasma Cannon is always handy, esp subtracting 6 from a scatter. Given that he's BS6 he does get to re-roll a Get's Hot result.
Hellfrost Cannon also seems solid. He's got a 2+ to hit with it and a 1/6 chance to insta-kill a MC if he wounds it.
TL Las-Cannon is the only option I am not a fan of at all. I mean, I like Las Cannons, but a single one isn't going to do much of anything and I hate paying more for upgrades that really should be free. Am I missing something on this?
WGBL with Armor of russ, twin claws on thunderwolf
Ulrik
Techguy on Thunderwolf
3x Cyberwolf
5x Grey hunters
Melta
Terminator Wolf Guard with combi melta and stormshield
Drop Pod
5x Grey hunters
Melta
Terminator Wolf Guard with combi melta and stormshield
Drop Pod
Fast Attack Drop Pod
5x Thunderwolves
3x storm shield
2x power fist
White Scars Allies
Chaplain
Bike
Auspex
Command Squad
Bikes
2x grav, 2x storm, apoth
5x scouts - Melta Bomb
5x scouts - Melta Bomb
3x Centurions with Grav and omniscope
Void Shield with 1 extra shield.
Wolf Guard battle leader and techpriest went with command squad, Chaplain went with thunderwolves, Ulrik went with grav in a pod
So I set up the void shield to protect my two units on objectives, and then everything else just went on the offensive. I tended to box them into one quarter and just used board control to make it hard for them to score.
For WGBL missing out on the AP 2 was rough and I think I am going to go Champions of Fenris instead, take the Krakenbone Sword and Relic Armor from that book. The -5 init was nice, but against a lot of targets it didnt matter, however if I had had AP 2 at init it would have been a huge deal. Also with preferred enemy characters and str 6 with 5 attacks at ap 2 it is going to work much better.
Thunderwolves worked well, I positioned them so storm shields were out front. I liked that I didn't buy storm/fist for all of them because they would just die before they made it. they are just two T5 marines when it comes to dying. Saved points that way and didn't really notice a drop in killing power. I am also going to get the re-roll hits talisman on my techpriest, number of times I wish he would re-roll hits when I sent him and the wolves to go hunt a unit......
I cant speak to how awesome the stormshield terminator was in the squad, kept them alive through sweep attacks, close combat and just tanked a bunch of wounds(number of back to back twos I rolled.......) Worth the 10 extra points over a power armor guy with a combi. I like that they will be getting preferred enemy in challeges which could really help improve my combat ability without needing to buy the squad a weapon. I have considered investing in a frost axe for one of the grey hunter mooks.
Oh yeah, I totally missed that you can swap the power weapon for a storm shield for free! Man I am learning so many new things about this book every time I read this thread.
Did you feel like you had any problems with the GH in CC or was their primary job just to nuke something, stay alive and hold on until the cavalry came in to save the day?
I'm thinking that throwing one of those SS/Combi Terminators into a 3 man unit of Terminators in a pod would also be great at tanking those low AP wounds off the squad (possibly for Arjack).
Were the Cyberwolves decent at eating a few extra wounds and/or worth their points?
More Dakka wrote: Oh yeah, I totally missed that you can swap the power weapon for a storm shield for free! Man I am learning so many new things about this book every time I read this thread.
Did you feel like you had any problems with the GH in CC or was their primary job just to nuke something, stay alive and hold on until the cavalry came in to save the day?
I'm thinking that throwing one of those SS/Combi Terminators into a 3 man unit of Terminators in a pod would also be great at tanking those low AP wounds off the squad (possibly for Arjack).
Were the Cyberwolves decent at eating a few extra wounds and/or worth their points?
I had some problems with the grey hunters in CC, but I didnt want them there anyway unless it was against a mook squad. Still them having counter attack was really nice, I did miss having a melta bomb on the sergeant and so I need to look into finding the points for that. But they did their job quite well and I love the kit out. Outside of the melta bomb there is nothing I think I need to add.
My main rationeal behind the storm shield combo in the grey hunters is that it increases the survivability by so much. Against ap4 or worse it is twice as survivable, against ap 3 it is 5 times as survivable. Against ap 2 it is 3 times as survivable on average. All that for an extra 10 points more than I would spend otherwise. I think in a 3 man squad with arjac, make the other two stormshield and something else like wolf claw since arjac is going to mess up anything in CC and they can just tank a few hits/contribute attacks at initiative.
Cyberwolves are boss. I think of them as better assault marines. They increase the model count and ability to spread out for your unit(crucial for multi charges) They have 3 attacks base as well as ignore difficult terrain for charging/moving(once again great for getting the cav around terrain without taking tests). They have counter attack(i believe) as well as a marine stat line. But most importantly......they are characters!!!! Challenge bait/character protection. As far as just being ablative wounds they are not worth it I mean for 10 more points than 2 I could get another thunderwolf, but for everything else they are add to the unit.
Has anybody found the Heavy Support options a bit tough to decide on? I had a mainstay Long Fang unit for a long time with 5x Missile Launchers but with that being 165 points I've started to look at other options. Vindicators aren't really doing it for me, honestly.
Also -- been using Murderfang. Not sure I like him, compared to 10 points more for the 3++ one. Thoughts?
I ran a Terminator unit deep striking with Arjac with a Claw and Storm Shield on every guy, the last being a Thunder Hammer Storm Shield termie. Just a heads up: don't make the same mistake I did and pay the price for the Hammer and take the free shield, when you can just make a single model have a THSS combo for 15 extra points!
Only when the techpriest split off to take out a target because there were more of them(I have been going with t4). Since they are usually the first casualties I have not had toughness problems with them. I keep him in my command squad most of the time so the wolves have FNP wounds.
Moveing characters around as fits the situation best but I found that the WGBL and Techmarine in the command squad was plenty of punch and I also found that the thunderwolves had plenty of punch with the chaplain that combining them was overkill and un-necessary against most targets.
Gangrel767 wrote: For the thunderwolves... is it worth taking the FOC from the champions of fenris book which gives them a +1 WS?
It depends if you have enough Elites to fill the mandatory slots or not.
TWC get no benefit from a CAD, neither do Wolf Guard packs. If you're taking either of those (or any elites, really), then yes, using the Company of the Great Wolf detachment is superior to CAD or the one from the Codex (whose name I forget).
So, you could do:
CAD - HQ + ObSec Grey Hunters
CotGW - HQ, Iron Priests on TW, TWC
With your heavy support filling in wherever. Not a bad set up, really.
Gangrel767 wrote: For the thunderwolves... is it worth taking the FOC from the champions of fenris book which gives them a +1 WS?
It depends if you have enough Elites to fill the mandatory slots or not.
TWC get no benefit from a CAD, neither do Wolf Guard packs. If you're taking either of those (or any elites, really), then yes, using the Company of the Great Wolf detachment is superior to CAD or the one from the Codex (whose name I forget).
So, you could do:
CAD - HQ + ObSec Grey Hunters
CotGW - HQ, Iron Priests on TW, TWC
With your heavy support filling in wherever. Not a bad set up, really.
So I played my second game with SW last night (also 2nd game in powerarmour) and got my ass handed to me... Again.. Against Eldar/Dark Eldar. My list wasnt optimized for sure but I wanted to try some things out. Basically what I used was...
WGBL, Russ, Black Death, TWC 5 TWC, 3SS/2TH
Bjorn and Friends in pods, 3 Helfrost Cannon (wanted to try these guys out).
2x5 GH, meltas in Razorback with Assaultcannon
2x5 GH, meltas in pods (Wolfguard Terminator in each unit)
Stormwolf
And what I faced was something like this:
Farseer and a warlock with some bikers
Wraithknight with Suncannon
2 Serpents, Firedragons/Dire Avengers enbarked
Falcon with Avengers
2 Warwalkers
Warpspiders
And I think an Autarch on bike solo.
The DE part was a Haemo with Hexrifle and Casket of Flensing in a Venom and a Voidraven Bomber(?)
He got first turn, didnt manage to seize and basically he blew me off the board in 2 turns. TWC died horribly under the combined fire of the Knight, Warwalkers and Serpents. Bjorn and his bunch made a hole killing the Falcon, the troops inside and sinking the Venom but after that they were left stranded by the fast Eldar army. Called it after 4 turns.
Sure my list was not optimal but a few lessons learned anyway:
It is critical for TWC to have either Fenrisian or Cyberwolves (or both) to soak up damage, the 3+/3++ is not enough with only 2W. Enter Ironpriests...
5++ on a Dread is a bonus not a mean to survive. Will try out the shield/axe combo next time around, and fewer Dreads. If you go ranged go Autocannon for the 54" threatrange.
Where I am still lost though, I feel that I need more threat on the table turn 1 to take some of the heat from the TWC but how? Not only for this particular list which will be scrapped but in general for SW.
Also GH in pods, still not convinced. They drop down, claim an objective and then... die horribly.
If you guys knew that you were facing the Deldar-army i listed in advance, what would you put on the board?
You've just faced an uber-list and probably didn't have enough blos terrain to hide against his shooting. Trust me, TWC are quite durable for their points and many armies will have hard time dealing with them. For example, my orkses. A standard squad of 20 shootaboyz (pk nob, rokkits) will statistically inflict around 1.5 wounds on TWC. Than will promptly die in mellee killing another one or two at best. And this squad of shootaboyz costs ~180 pts. That's the ideal scenario when orks get to shoot and charge.
Yep, wolves are not unkillable but they're really awesome for their points.
Correct, our tournaments dont have much LoS blockers (usually 2-3 per board) so we tend to play the same way at home as well. Regardless, I think SW need some more units on the board turn 1. Now I had the TWC-unit and two Razorbacks which makes the target priority VERY easy for any opponent.
For my next game, whoever the opponent might be ill be trying out something completely different. Landraider Crusaders with Bloodclaws Runepriest and WGBL for that turn 2 prescienced charge, a few Skyclaws with Flamers, Stormwolf, GH in Razorbacks with Lascannons...
Was it that way in 6th?
