Odd No has mentioned intractable, it's pricey but when my hellblasters get charged, people are in for a nasty surprise when they fall back and fire as normal.
DA actually have some really good strats, in my opinion. WftDA is an obvious stand-out, but SotR is underappreciated, in my estimation. First-turn charges with bikes can really cause a lot of disruption. Auspex scan and Intractable are fantastic situational defensive options. Hunt the Fallen is fabulous for 1 CP. I don't know any other DA players, but it's an auto-use for me if I'm running anything other than flyer spam or an Azrael gunline. Last but not least, nobody ever talks about Fortress of Shields. Deathwing Knights are rock hard to begin with but get ridiculous with -1 to wound them. I've been messing around with Librarian-buffed 10 man units, so negating at least 1/6 of the wounds coming back at me is a huge deal - totally worth a CP.
Took part in a 40 player, 6 round tournament at the 2K level. I took a Battalion and a Spearhead. The Battalion consisted of Azrael, a Librarian, Sammael, four Scout Squads, a Ravenwing Bike Squad, a Chapter Ancient and an Apothecary. The Spearhead was a ten man Hellblaster Squad with Plasma Incinerators, a ten man Hellblaster Squad with Heavy Plasma Incinerators, a five-man Devastator Squad and a Primaris Lieutenant. We had to submit our lists a month out and then I checked out the missions. The missions were all different with a host of different special rules.
Game 1 vs Alaitoc with five objectives. My opponent had Wraithguard and Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents, Vipers, Jetbikes and a Fire Prism. I sent the Ravenwing off on a distraction mission using Speed of the Raven to stay alive while the Hellblaster deathball rolled up the other flank. Even with the -1, the Hellblasters and Devastators were able to chew through vehicles, while WFtDA is nice against Wraithguard. This was actually a decisive victory for me.
Game 2 vs Astra Militarum with Sisters and Celestine. He had plenty of Forgeworld including a big flyer and three Earthshaker Carriages in addition to a Basilisk. He had first turn and by the end of it I knew the game was pretty much lost. I had no real answer to the long range artillery that was out of LOS, but the Hellblasters did at least kill Celestine. This was a fairly big loss.
Game 3 vs Orks. There was only one Ork player and I drew him. My Hellblasters are overkill against Orks, and with six objectives to capture I knew that once again I was facing an uphill struggle. He had five full mobs of Boys and five Weirdboyz plus some artillery. This fun game ended up being a closer loss than I had thought possible. The Bikes did well trimming Ork boys until Smite spam took them (the Beta rules actually help Weirdboyz as the game progresses.) My loss was really due to my gambling that I would not face Orks.
Game 4 vs Custodes. He had a bike squad, a Terminator squad and three normal squads plus two champions with -1 to hit banners and a Lord of some kind. I went first (the only time of the tourney), but he rolled 3+ and 4+ saves like a boss. I grabbed some secondary objective points and killed his bikes, lord and Terminators (Auspex scan with rapid fire is nice) but this was still a loss. His invul saves were really good, and this could have gone either way in Turn 1. Still, this was the first time I had faced Custodes and it was fun.
Game 5 vs Dark Angels. This blue on blue match saw me face a big Black Knight Squad, a Deathwing Knight Squad, a Deathwing Squad, Belial, Scouts, Intercessors, two Predators and a Nephilim. This mission had everybody at +2 BS over 12 " (so 5+ BS for us) and -2 to movement. He got first turn, but my Auspex scan with supercharging rapid-fire Hellblasters and a Chapter Ancient spoiled his alpha strike. The Hellblasters and Devastators then dismantled his heavy stuff. A fairly close victory despite out of proportion losses for him as he played smart with this Black Knights and racked up some objectives to keep it close.
Game 6 vs Astra Militarum. A wild game agaist three Baneblade variants, twenty Ratlings (on board one of the superheavies) and some character support. Oh, and there was a Chaos Warhound Titan walking down the centre of the board shooting the closest squads. The good news was that my opponent had a Shadowsword that dealt with the Warhound. The bad news was that his other two Superheavies were kitted out for anti-infantry and pounded my Hellblasters. I had formed a tight ball around Azrael and while the Heavy Plasma squad was down to one man after two turns the others were still in the fight. The regular Hellblasters and Devastators killed one superheavy per turn while the Jinking Ravenwing cleared out his light troops. A decisive victory that looked really grim at the end of his first turn as I contemplated the killing ground. His Ratlings on a superheavy killed my Ancient in the first round but they were neutralized when their ride was destroyed and the Ravenwing got in amongst them. This meant I went 3:3 over the weekend and finished in the exact middle of the pack.
Observations - Hope is not a method with list construction! I needed more crowd control. The Hellblasters were awesome against most opponents, however, and they will stay in my lists in some form. The Scouts might get reduced a little to add some Intercessors for balance. The Chapter Ancient was awesome while the Apothecary was a waste. The Librarian was underwhelming in every match. Azrael, Sammael and the Lt were worth every point. The Ravenwing Bikes were really good!
Key stratagems were WFtDA, Auspex Scan, Speed of the Raven and Intractable. I budgeted four CPs for WFtDA, at least 1 CP for Speed of the Raven and then tried to keep 2 CPs in reserve for either an Auspex Scan or Intractable as the situation dictated.
A fun tournament that forced me to think on my feet as every mission was a home brew with really interesting twists.
TL/DR - I took too many Hellblasters even if they did awesome!
Intractable is excellent , hellfire and flak are also handy. I’ve won games with WotDA and SotR, but my favorite moment so far was a squad of Black Knights and a Company Champion charging into a squad of Berserkers, failing miserably to do much, dying, and then the Champion popping the stratagem that let’s you attack again after dying and causing just enough wounds to kill the Berserkers from morale. His sacrifice saved the game for me.
I also learned well the importance of proper bubble wrap that game. My opponent deep strikes turn one with 30 Bloodletters, pops a stratagem to charge 3d6 and mulches 2 Assault Cannon Razors and a small dev squad with missile launchers. He also killed my one screen unit of scouts, damaged a Rhino, and shot up half of my other Devastators. I thought I was done for, but Azrael, Hellblasters, Black Knights and a Talonmaster can do stupid damage if they can live long enough to get off 2 or 3 volleys of fire.
I’ve been very pleased with my mobile gun line so far.
I so want to run 2 talos masters for my anti infantry firepower. 12 hb shots and 24 assault cannon shots plus protection for being a charecter just seems stupid good. Add Samuel on a bike and I don't see how it could go bad. (Or on his own speeder for more dakka)
Azuza001 wrote: I so want to run 2 talos masters for my anti infantry firepower. 12 hb shots and 24 assault cannon shots plus protection for being a charecter just seems stupid good. Add Samuel on a bike and I don't see how it could go bad. (Or on his own speeder for more dakka)
Sammy on a bike is very underwhelming compared to sammy in the speeder.
Given the prevelance of units with the FLY keyword, like many Eldar and Tau units, as well as demons, Tyranids, Stormravens, not to mention the new Custodes bikes, are people having success with fielding Stalker units? Hunters seem like they would be a waste of a single shot.
Hey everyone, do you play Company Veterans ? And if yes, in which setup ? I really like the models (robes and armour are my weakness) but don't know how I would use them. Given we pay extra points for more attacks I believe they're best geared with CC options, but they'd need a transport. And using them as special weapons carriers would be costly, for a unit no more resilient than regular TAC squads, with fewer numbers.
Got a lovely little comp Ravenwing force, but I'm looking to expand. I'd love a Deathwing force to compliment my army thematically, but is there any way to play them at least semi-competitively? Tanks and gunline it more than a terminator force? Advice pls
In my opinion, company vets are best run cheap: stormbolter and chainswords for chaff clearing. I played a game where I dropped 5 of them plus 5 company champions in a drop pod, and it seemed to work pretty well. Some people enjoy putting plasma weapons on them, but I think we have much better options for plasma than that.
As for Deathwing, the only reasonably competitive option available at the moment is Deathwing Knights. They're ridiculously slow, so you have to either transport them (probably in a LRC or a Stormraven) or use other units to box in the stuff you want the DWK to mulch. Relying on making a 9" charge with such an expensive unit left out on its own just isn't viable, even with charge distances rerolls. They crush things once they get to combat, though, and with Fortress of Shields, they never, ever die.
Stormbolter+Chainsword. Put 5 in a Razorback. Put 2 company champions, 1 librarian and 5 tacticals with combi plasma and plasma in a rhino. Use the psychic power of rerolling hit and wound rolls in mele in the Company Veterans.
Profit.
Shrapnelbait wrote: Given the prevelance of units with the FLY keyword, like many Eldar and Tau units, as well as demons, Tyranids, Stormravens, not to mention the new Custodes bikes, are people having success with fielding Stalker units? Hunters seem like they would be a waste of a single shot.
When I ran AM I'd try to run Hydras following this exact chain of logic. The problem is such units are too swingy. Either your opponent brought flyers, in which case you get to blow one up before they all concentrate on the AA (making back more than its points usually) or no flyers were brought and you are playing with something that can't get any other work done. Meanwhile I could pack flamers and have the best AA of all. DA doesn't get any nice 16" flamers that I know of, but you'd be better off packing a couple of flamer sponsons on key vehicles rather than dedicating an AA unit.
MilkmanAl wrote:In my opinion, company vets are best run cheap: stormbolter and chainswords for chaff clearing. I played a game where I dropped 5 of them plus 5 company champions in a drop pod, and it seemed to work pretty well. Some people enjoy putting plasma weapons on them, but I think we have much better options for plasma than that.
As for Deathwing, the only reasonably competitive option available at the moment is Deathwing Knights. They're ridiculously slow, so you have to either transport them (probably in a LRC or a Stormraven) or use other units to box in the stuff you want the DWK to mulch. Relying on making a 9" charge with such an expensive unit left out on its own just isn't viable, even with charge distances rerolls. They crush things once they get to combat, though, and with Fortress of Shields, they never, ever die.
Galas wrote:Stormbolter+Chainsword. Put 5 in a Razorback. Put 2 company champions, 1 librarian and 5 tacticals with combi plasma and plasma in a rhino. Use the psychic power of rerolling hit and wound rolls in mele in the Company Veterans.
Profit.
I feel we have enough choice in the anti-horde department :/ Between bolter Inceptors, the Bikes, every hing that has an Assault Cannon, regular DW... Wouldn't it be redundant to use a specific squad to go deal S4 AP0 hits ? The benefit would be locking units in CC of course, but I'm unsure it's worth the investment.
Anyone ever tried a footslogging Deathstar with Asmodai, DW Ancient, Ezekiel (for the extra attack + Righteous Repugnance) and DW Knights ? It would take an eternity to cross the board, but you'd have 10 Knights with 4 attacks each, that reroll hits and wounds, with each model within 6" of Ezekiel doing a last strike before dying, + the CC of all the characters. Just a theory here but it looks hilarious.
xttz wrote: I'm picking up 2 boxes of Devs this week and was wondering how best to arm the 2nd squad (obviously the first will be all plasma).
My army is mostly DW Terminators with 1 LR & 1 LRR, and I plan to add a Deredeo alongside the Devastators at some point.
I think the general consensus for SM has been three lascannons and a pair of heavy bolters. Just enough shooting to threaten elite infantry, all the lascannons needed to threaten a knight.
Aaranis wrote: Going to try a 7 men Dev squad with 4 plasma cannons wednesday, I'll tell you how they fared. Going to run a Lieutenant nearby for more effectiveness.
Yeah I'd be interested to see how that works, thanks. I was already considering using a Primaris Lieutenant with master-crafted stalker bolter to buff devs & backfield dreads.
Shrapnelbait wrote: Given the prevelance of units with the FLY keyword, like many Eldar and Tau units, as well as demons, Tyranids, Stormravens, not to mention the new Custodes bikes, are people having success with fielding Stalker units? Hunters seem like they would be a waste of a single shot.
I usually field 2 (sometimes 3) Relic Sicarians with heavy bolters and they are great. Costs 25pts more than a predator but T7 14 wounds and most importantly a str7 assault 8 -1ap weapon that ignores the benefits of Fly (and also has -3 ap when rolling a 6 to wound). With the 14" movment they are very good jack of all trades.
Aaranis wrote: Going to try a 7 men Dev squad with 4 plasma cannons wednesday, I'll tell you how they fared. Going to run a Lieutenant nearby for more effectiveness.
Yeah I'd be interested to see how that works, thanks. I was already considering using a Primaris Lieutenant with master-crafted stalker bolter to buff devs & backfield dreads.
Game played and won ! But honestly couldn't test the Dev squad thoroughly, they ate infiltrated flamer Aggressors in the face turn one and had 1 plasma cannon left after the losses + 1 from morale. BUT ! Stoically facing the prospect of his near death, he promptly avenged his fallen brothers by overcharging his plasma cannon, killing an Aggressor, and as he saw his arms hadn't melted yet, he used the Armorium Cherub as fuel to shoot once more, and kill the two remaining Aggressors by himself. He then stood there for the rest of the game, because he had no targets in sight.
So overall, I'll likely play them again, the 2 ablative wounds from the regular Marines were worth it, otherwise these Aggressors would've been wandering forever.
TAC squads are absolute trash however, I use 5 to charge at a wounded Primaris Lieutenant, and they manage to all die in CC in two turns. I'll soon have 10 Intercessors, these are nice. I'll buy Scouts someday too.
Aaranis wrote: Going to try a 7 men Dev squad with 4 plasma cannons wednesday, I'll tell you how they fared. Going to run a Lieutenant nearby for more effectiveness.
Yeah I'd be interested to see how that works, thanks. I was already considering using a Primaris Lieutenant with master-crafted stalker bolter to buff devs & backfield dreads.
Game played and won ! But honestly couldn't test the Dev squad thoroughly, they ate infiltrated flamer Aggressors in the face turn one and had 1 plasma cannon left after the losses + 1 from morale. BUT ! Stoically facing the prospect of his near death, he promptly avenged his fallen brothers by overcharging his plasma cannon, killing an Aggressor, and as he saw his arms hadn't melted yet, he used the Armorium Cherub as fuel to shoot once more, and kill the two remaining Aggressors by himself. He then stood there for the rest of the game, because he had no targets in sight.
So overall, I'll likely play them again, the 2 ablative wounds from the regular Marines were worth it, otherwise these Aggressors would've been wandering forever.
TAC squads are absolute trash however, I use 5 to charge at a wounded Primaris Lieutenant, and they manage to all die in CC in two turns. I'll soon have 10 Intercessors, these are nice. I'll buy Scouts someday too.
Could you have auspex scanned them ?
yea when I run Plasma Dves I usually run an Ancient near them. Even if they die to overcharge they shoot again.
Scouts for me are go too. I have tried Intercessors but when I figure in cost I just want another unit of scouts. Deployment outside of Deployment zone is key vs infiltrate and DS. I think this would have saved your Devs as well.
xttz wrote: I'm picking up 2 boxes of Devs this week and was wondering how best to arm the 2nd squad (obviously the first will be all plasma).
My army is mostly DW Terminators with 1 LR & 1 LRR, and I plan to add a Deredeo alongside the Devastators at some point.
I think the general consensus for SM has been three lascannons and a pair of heavy bolters. Just enough shooting to threaten elite infantry, all the lascannons needed to threaten a knight.
When running Lascannon Devs I have been going 2 LC, 1 HB and 1 ML. The HB and ML allows me to possible use 2 strats for 2-6 mortal wounds
Aaranis wrote: Going to try a 7 men Dev squad with 4 plasma cannons wednesday, I'll tell you how they fared. Going to run a Lieutenant nearby for more effectiveness.
Yeah I'd be interested to see how that works, thanks. I was already considering using a Primaris Lieutenant with master-crafted stalker bolter to buff devs & backfield dreads.
Game played and won ! But honestly couldn't test the Dev squad thoroughly, they ate infiltrated flamer Aggressors in the face turn one and had 1 plasma cannon left after the losses + 1 from morale. BUT ! Stoically facing the prospect of his near death, he promptly avenged his fallen brothers by overcharging his plasma cannon, killing an Aggressor, and as he saw his arms hadn't melted yet, he used the Armorium Cherub as fuel to shoot once more, and kill the two remaining Aggressors by himself. He then stood there for the rest of the game, because he had no targets in sight.
So overall, I'll likely play them again, the 2 ablative wounds from the regular Marines were worth it, otherwise these Aggressors would've been wandering forever.
TAC squads are absolute trash however, I use 5 to charge at a wounded Primaris Lieutenant, and they manage to all die in CC in two turns. I'll soon have 10 Intercessors, these are nice. I'll buy Scouts someday too.
Cool. Just curious, isn't the Cherub it's own model? I believe it can be sacrificed first like the Ammo Runts for the ork Nobs. As a bonus it's not considered when calculating moral, so you might have kept 2 extra Devs (one in place of the cherub and if you only lost moral by one, or was that from grim resolve)
Aaranis wrote: Going to try a 7 men Dev squad with 4 plasma cannons wednesday, I'll tell you how they fared. Going to run a Lieutenant nearby for more effectiveness.
Yeah I'd be interested to see how that works, thanks. I was already considering using a Primaris Lieutenant with master-crafted stalker bolter to buff devs & backfield dreads.
Game played and won ! But honestly couldn't test the Dev squad thoroughly, they ate infiltrated flamer Aggressors in the face turn one and had 1 plasma cannon left after the losses + 1 from morale. BUT ! Stoically facing the prospect of his near death, he promptly avenged his fallen brothers by overcharging his plasma cannon, killing an Aggressor, and as he saw his arms hadn't melted yet, he used the Armorium Cherub as fuel to shoot once more, and kill the two remaining Aggressors by himself. He then stood there for the rest of the game, because he had no targets in sight.
So overall, I'll likely play them again, the 2 ablative wounds from the regular Marines were worth it, otherwise these Aggressors would've been wandering forever.
TAC squads are absolute trash however, I use 5 to charge at a wounded Primaris Lieutenant, and they manage to all die in CC in two turns. I'll soon have 10 Intercessors, these are nice. I'll buy Scouts someday too.
Cool. Just curious, isn't the Cherub it's own model? I believe it can be sacrificed first like the Ammo Runts for the ork Nobs. As a bonus it's not considered when calculating moral, so you might have kept 2 extra Devs (one in place of the cherub and if you only lost moral by one, or was that from grim resolve)
nah.. as far as I know the cherub isn't a separate model.. just wargear
Cherub is indeed a separate model. You can see that it has a profile in the dev datasheet. It doesn't have 3+ armour though so you have to roll 1 die at a time for its saves till it dies.
zedsdead wrote: When running Lascannon Devs I have been going 2 LC, 1 HB and 1 ML. The HB and ML allows me to possible use 2 strats for 2-6 mortal wounds
Good thinking.
I have some scouts coming on the same order, so I'm thinking of giving them the HB for Hellfire. The devs can take 3 lascannon 1 ML which combine well together, and the signum can be used on any Flakk missile attempts.
nah.. as far as I know the cherub isn't a separate model.. just wargear
The Cherub has a profile and can definitely be used as an ablative wound, and even has a rule to say that for morale purposes you ignore it dying. However it does only have a 6+ save, so you'll likely find it doesn't last very long.
Swillsswil wrote: Cherub is indeed a separate model. You can see that it has a profile in the dev datasheet. It doesn't have 3+ armour though so you have to roll 1 die at a time for its saves till it dies.
thx for the correction. didn't realize it could eat a wound for the unit
No I kept it so as to be able to shoot twice with any survivors. I lost 5 men to the flamers, and one more to morale with Grim Resolve. Rolled two 5 for morale anyway, so one Marine gone nonetheless. Couldn't Auspex them, because the Raven Guard infiltration is not considered "coming from reserves" as you deploy it on the table before the first turn. It's like the Alpha Legion or Stygies VII stratagem. I had a Lieutenant for the rerolls of 1 to Wound, and he's the one that finished that immortal Primaris Lieutenant so I was happy to have him.
On another subject, I just found out about the stratagem "Data-link Telemetry", the one that allows you to chose a target within 12" of a Land Speeder and in LoS, to shoot at it with a Whirlwind with auto-hits. Given I intend on having at least one LS (Sammael or regular ones) I'm wondering if I should consider buying a Whirlwind too. The Vengance missiles look pretty neat, I didn't run the maths yet but 2d6 autocannon shots at 72" without LoS, that auto-hit, seems pretty good. Anyone tried that ?
EDIT: Nevermind I ran the maths with just the Whirlwind + Launcher and it's awful. Following numbers are those obtained with the auto-hits from the stratagem, on average.
- The Castellan Launcher is only effective against 1W light infantry, like GEQ (3,89 W), Scions (2,92 W) and MEQ (1,56 W). When you aim vehicles with it you quickly obtain 3/4 or 1/2 of a Wound.
- The Vengeance Launcher is all the opposite, it's overkill against GEQ (2,78 W), Scions (2,22 W) and MEQ (1,33). due to the 2D, but manages good results nonetheless, even if less efficient points-wise than the Castellan. It gets way better than its counterpart against multi-wounds models such as Primaris (2,67 W), TEQ (1,78) but is still mediocre. Against Vehicles such as Rhinos (2 W), Land Raiders (1,33 W) and Leman Russes (1,33 W) it can scrap off the occasional last wound to finish it off, but you're paying 1 CP for these results, remember.
We have to consider it can shoot without LoS, at 72", and on a Rhino chassis, but I believe it's still not worth bringing one to the table. Consider paying for the hunter-killer missile if you want to play it though, as all his weapons benefit from the stratagem, it can help do 1d6 more damage.
Swillsswil wrote: Cherub is indeed a separate model. You can see that it has a profile in the dev datasheet. It doesn't have 3+ armour though so you have to roll 1 die at a time for its saves till it dies.
Also good for eating mortal wounds, or the Grim Resolve moral check
axisofentropy wrote: quick army workshop, 1000 point singles event on small tables (3x4?)
Thoughts? Two ~180 point HQ's, two ~230 point plasma bombs
I'm fairly new to this, but I think you either have to go with Azzy or Sammy not both. The plasma bombs are good but they can be wiped fairly easily. 1000pts isn't enough to diversify like that, you have to specialize. If you go with gunline (Azzy) take another Hellblaster squad or some Devs. If you go mobile (Sammy) maybe a Darkshroud, or Inceptors, or Melta bikes.
axisofentropy wrote: quick army workshop, 1000 point singles event on small tables (3x4?)
Azreal
Sammeal on Corvex
7 Hellblasters
5 Black Knights
5 Scouts
5 Scouts
6 Scouts!
Thoughts? Two ~180 point HQ's, two ~230 point plasma bombs
Gonna have to agree with Shrapnelbait above, at 1000 points you can't do two things at once really. I think I'd drop the Hellblasters and Azzy for a Talonmaster and either a second unit of Black Knights (expensive), a Dark Talon (not much at that points level can deal with a flyer easily), or some regular bikers. Possibly consider using any leftover points to trade in the 6-man scout squad for some Intercessors with bolt rifles, as they have more staying power and can harass the enemy from further away while camping an objective.
Thanks guys, y'all gave me a lot to think about. I just finished painting Azrael, Sammeal, and 10 Hellblasters so I wanted to get all of them on the table, but Sammy will just have to wait. Thinking about adding a Company Ancient too to really turn this gunline up to 11.
axisofentropy wrote: Thanks guys, y'all gave me a lot to think about. I just finished painting Azrael, Sammeal, and 10 Hellblasters so I wanted to get all of them on the table, but Sammy will just have to wait. Thinking about adding a Company Ancient too to really turn this gunline up to 11.
In 1000 pts
go with 3 scout squads make them 5 man squads.. you need a good bubble wrap for your Hellblaster bomb make them bare bones
Make the Hellblasters 1 unit to take advantage of WotDa reduce size to add in Ancient
Remove the master (you are already re-rolling hits) Add in a lieutenant with a jet pack... re-roll wounds of 1 and this guy can be greaqt at counter assault with the relic blade
Add a Chapter Ancient. Makes your Hellblaster super effective. If they die they shoot again. And they will die. Even if they die to Overcharging..they shoot again.
What's your opinions on this as a warlord option: Master in Termie suit, Combi plas and storm shield, Huntsman, and shroud of the unseen. 150pts, pretty survivable, and may be able to take out the opponents HQ or clean up pesky psykers or other buffers. Drop him upfield with a squad of termies, Knights and/or Inceptors.
Machabees wrote: I have a big tournament coming up and am trying out a variety of lists. This is my current list and I would love some input please and thank you!
Azrael
Chapter Ancient
10 Hellblasters
3 x 5 Scouts
Looks decent, most 1k armies will have a hard time dealing with two units of hellblasters backed by azy. A master and Azrael should wreck anything that makes it into CC, at least at 1k points.
The issue with scouts at 1k is there is just so much board, and so little bubble wrap. I suppose you have 8 CP so having to drop 2 points for intractable won't hurt you too much, especially considering you have a chance to get part of it back, and a chance to get back points on incidentals like WFTDA.
Maybe you could go a little cheap on the master, drop him to a lt with a normal power sword and pistol, drop the extra scouts and get an ancient, which should make alpha striking your hellblasters a prickly proposition.
Grimgold wrote: Looks decent, most 1k armies will have a hard time dealing with two units of hellblasters backed by azy. A master and Azrael should wreck anything that makes it into CC, at least at 1k points.
The issue with scouts at 1k is there is just so much board, and so little bubble wrap. I suppose you have 8 CP so having to drop 2 points for intractable won't hurt you too much, especially considering you have a chance to get part of it back, and a chance to get back points on incidentals like WFTDA.
Maybe you could go a little cheap on the master, drop him to a lt with a normal power sword and pistol, drop the extra scouts and get an ancient, which should make alpha striking your hellblasters a prickly proposition.
yea he needs the Ancient big time and I would dump the master for the LT with jump pack.
1000 Pts really should be playing on a 4X4 board. 1000pts is just to small for 6x4. played on both and the 4x4 was much better
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Machabees wrote: I have a big tournament coming up and am trying out a variety of lists. This is my current list and I would love some input please and thank you!
Azrael
Chapter Ancient
10 Hellblasters
3 x 5 Scouts
Sammael in Sableclaw
Talonmaster
2 x 3 Ravenwing Bikers
3 Plasma Inceptors
1 Darkshroud
2 x Dark Talons
8cp 2000pts
What do you guys think?
here is the problem with half gunline half ravenwing armies: you need expensive characters to make them work well. RW needs Sammy and a TM. Gunlines need Azzy and an CA to really work well. In this list you are paying big points for 4 Characters. IMHO its the one thing bad about DA... its hard to build competitive 'Mixed" DA armies without going outside the Dex. Personally I would choose to go one or the other.
I would go with the RW portion of your list and add in a Knight bike squad, 7 of them.. leave the Inceptors. they are so good Add in a RW Ancient and maybe a Libby on bike if you have the pts
Also try to move things around to get an Outrider detatchment for an extra CP
Would a Supreme Command detachment of 3 Custodes Bike Captains be a good add-in for Dark Angels? Maybe to supplement the hitting power of Ravenwing, or provide some mobile killing potential to a gunline list?
Horde armies, the challenges are obvious. Orks are very heavy in the local meta right now, and I just can't put out the necessary firepower to deal with them (even when I was rolling 12 bolter Inceptors). I've found similar issues with chaos lists that roll heavy on the models.
I've been finding success against armor heavy, and elite lists. I absolutely wrecked a Knight list last week, and today dismantled a Marine list with no difficulty.
In the past on here people keep saying to not do the snipers, well I think they're smoking crack. Those guys have been money every game, just wrecking characters.
First game was against IG with a Shadowsword, a few sentinels, and the rest infantry with mortars and lascannons. Table quarters deployment on a very open board with only one real LOS blocking terrain piece. I won first turn, but seized on, and he destroyed my Dark shroud and Talon and did a few other wounds here and there. I ended up losing but was able to drop my plasma inceptors on turn 3 and nuke the Shadowsword even with -1 to hit and +1 save. Had to wait to turn 3 for a dropzone to open up. The rest of my army chewed up decent amounts of guardsmen, and game ended after 4 turns due to time.
Second game was against Space Wolves with 30+ Thunderwolf cavalry and 3 characters (iron priest, Canis, and some super werewolf). I went first and used my speed and range to stay out of his melee reach for several turns, dropping a few squads per turn. He got pissed and said Dark Angels are pure cheese (never had that happen before lol), but he brought a one dimensional list with next to no shooting, and less speed than mine. Won this one without issue.
Last game was also against IG. Baneblade w/salamander, 5 basilisks, infantry and veterans with lascannons. Played on same board as first game. I went first, moved Dark talon, shroud, Sammy and Talon master, and bikes up. Dropped all inceptors in front of Sammael and Talon master and Shroud. 1 combat squad of Hellblasters overcharged and took some wounds off the baneblade, then plasma inceptors finished it off easily, losing one to overheating. Rest of force effectively removed another 2.5-3 infantry squads. Opponent conceeded after turn two, with just basilisks and maybe 2 infantry squads left.
Overall I did well in points and finished 2nd. First place was some type of chaos and/or demons.
My takeaways:
-Inceptors are fantastic, both styles. Bolter-ceptors are super points efficient for the dakka, and I prefer plasma-ceptors to hellblasters or black knights since they are protected thru deepstrike ability.
-Sammy and Talon Master are a great mobile firebase. I would not rush them headlong into enemy ranks, rather use them to finish off weakened units or to countercharge. I prefer them to a jump pack master & lieutenant, among other reasons, because they buff the inceptors with rerolls 1's to hit and wound.
-Make sure your army is resilient, which can be obtained thru several methods, ie deep strike, Azrael invul bubble, Dark shroud, etc.
-Don't quit. First game looked bleak, but my list's resilience (see above bullet) plus not quitting still netted me some decent points. Sure it was still a loss, but it was enough to push me to second place. My opponent asked me after turn 2 if I wanted to continue, I said yes. Concession would have yielded zero points.
-Strategems I used- Speed of the Raven, Weapons from the Dark Age, Armor of Contempt, Only in Death does duty end (awesome when Sammy died from shooting in 1st game)
-I'm not sure what I want to change yet. May keep it strictly DA for now, may add some Custodes bikes, I think they would synergize well with my list.
First game was against IG with a Shadowsword, a few sentinels, and the rest infantry with mortars and lascannons. Table quarters deployment on a very open board with only one real LOS blocking terrain piece. I won first turn, but seized on, and he destroyed my Dark shroud and Talon and did a few other wounds here and there. I ended up losing but was able to drop my plasma inceptors on turn 3 and nuke the Shadowsword even with -1 to hit and +1 save. Had to wait to turn 3 for a dropzone to open up. The rest of my army chewed up decent amounts of guardsmen, and game ended after 4 turns due to time.
Second game was against Space Wolves with 30+ Thunderwolf cavalry and 3 characters (iron priest, Canis, and some super werewolf). I went first and used my speed and range to stay out of his melee reach for several turns, dropping a few squads per turn. He got pissed and said Dark Angels are pure cheese (never had that happen before lol), but he brought a one dimensional list with next to no shooting, and less speed than mine. Won this one without issue.
Last game was also against IG. Baneblade w/salamander, 5 basilisks, infantry and veterans with lascannons. Played on same board as first game. I went first, moved Dark talon, shroud, Sammy and Talon master, and bikes up. Dropped all inceptors in front of Sammael and Talon master and Shroud. 1 combat squad of Hellblasters overcharged and took some wounds off the baneblade, then plasma inceptors finished it off easily, losing one to overheating. Rest of force effectively removed another 2.5-3 infantry squads. Opponent conceeded after turn two, with just basilisks and maybe 2 infantry squads left.
Overall I did well in points and finished 2nd. First place was some type of chaos and/or demons.
My takeaways:
-Inceptors are fantastic, both styles. Bolter-ceptors are super points efficient for the dakka, and I prefer plasma-ceptors to hellblasters or black knights since they are protected thru deepstrike ability.
-Sammy and Talon Master are a great mobile firebase. I would not rush them headlong into enemy ranks, rather use them to finish off weakened units or to countercharge. I prefer them to a jump pack master & lieutenant, among other reasons, because they buff the inceptors with rerolls 1's to hit and wound.
-Make sure your army is resilient, which can be obtained thru several methods, ie deep strike, Azrael invul bubble, Dark shroud, etc.
-Don't quit. First game looked bleak, but my list's resilience (see above bullet) plus not quitting still netted me some decent points. Sure it was still a loss, but it was enough to push me to second place. My opponent asked me after turn 2 if I wanted to continue, I said yes. Concession would have yielded zero points.
-Strategems I used- Speed of the Raven, Weapons from the Dark Age, Armor of Contempt, Only in Death does duty end (awesome when Sammy died from shooting in 1st game)
-I'm not sure what I want to change yet. May keep it strictly DA for now, may add some Custodes bikes, I think they would synergize well with my list.
Thanks for sharing, i'm running a simialr list with inceptors both bolters and plasma and azrael bubble as the core, but why not take a company ancient? his aura is pretty descent giving the +1 to leadership and 4+ to shoot when killed including when killed by supercharged plasma
Shrapnelbait wrote: Not sure where else to post it, where is Sammy in the Land speeder model? I can't find it on GW or Forgeworld site?
Ravenwing accessory sprue bits on a Land speeder.
So, do you have to buy the Sammy on Bike kit to get the Sammy model, the accessory sprue, and a Land Speeder? I find it so odd that they have official stats for a model they don't make
Shrapnelbait wrote: Not sure where else to post it, where is Sammy in the Land speeder model? I can't find it on GW or Forgeworld site?
Ravenwing accessory sprue bits on a Land speeder.
So, do you have to buy the Sammy on Bike kit to get the Sammy model, the accessory sprue, and a Land Speeder? I find it so odd that they have official stats for a model they don't make
You don't need the Sammy bike model. Just combine certain bits from the Ravenwing accessory sprue with a regular Land Speeder kit and you're good to go. I'd swear there were even published conversion instructions from GW somewhere (think it was in the White Dwarf Weekly that talked about the 7th edition codex release). They might have released them electronically as well. He's basically the same build as a Talonmaster, including the same weapons.
So any advice for what's a good place to go from here? I've been amassing this for about 1.5 editions now in kits (mostly unbuilt), as I'm often drawn away from having the time to build and paint (health, school, etc).
6x10 tactical squads
1x5 Tart squad
1x5 Cat squad
1x Contemptor
1x Interrogator Chaplain
1x Azrael
2x3 Ravenwing Bike Squads
1x Attack bike
1x Landspeeder
Kinda scratching my head at this point, and wondering if I should just go for a full company list, and maybe add some tempestus scions in for good measure, along with (obviously) transports and aircraft. maybe some hellblasters too for heavy support and ignoring devastators entirely.
Wyzilla wrote: So any advice for what's a good place to go from here? I've been amassing this for about 1.5 editions now in kits (mostly unbuilt), as I'm often drawn away from having the time to build and paint (health, school, etc).
6x10 tactical squads
1x5 Tart squad
1x5 Cat squad
1x Contemptor
1x Interrogator Chaplain
1x Azrael
2x3 Ravenwing Bike Squads
1x Attack bike
1x Landspeeder
Kinda scratching my head at this point, and wondering if I should just go for a full company list, and maybe add some tempestus scions in for good measure, along with (obviously) transports and aircraft. maybe some hellblasters too for heavy support and ignoring devastators entirely.
Get some plasma. You can go Devestators for the old skool appeal, Hellblasters for static offense, or Inceptors for point drop erasure.
Wyzilla wrote: So any advice for what's a good place to go from here? I've been amassing this for about 1.5 editions now in kits (mostly unbuilt), as I'm often drawn away from having the time to build and paint (health, school, etc).
6x10 tactical squads
1x5 Tart squad
1x5 Cat squad
1x Contemptor
1x Interrogator Chaplain
1x Azrael
2x3 Ravenwing Bike Squads
1x Attack bike
1x Landspeeder
Kinda scratching my head at this point, and wondering if I should just go for a full company list, and maybe add some tempestus scions in for good measure, along with (obviously) transports and aircraft. maybe some hellblasters too for heavy support and ignoring devastators entirely.
If you haven't built the Landspeeder and you have saved the Ravenwing Accessory Packs that are found in the Ravenwing Bike Squad kit, you have the parts to build either the Ravenwing Talonmaster or Sammael in Sableclaw. Both are hot in the lastest Codex. I actually put a instruction "How to Build a Ravenwing Talomaster or Sammel in Sableclaw" in the Painting & Modeling Tutorials. Although I will probably update it, it will give you some instructions on how to build either of these two models.
Wyzilla wrote: So any advice for what's a good place to go from here? I've been amassing this for about 1.5 editions now in kits (mostly unbuilt), as I'm often drawn away from having the time to build and paint (health, school, etc).
6x10 tactical squads
1x5 Tart squad
1x5 Cat squad
1x Contemptor
1x Interrogator Chaplain
1x Azrael
2x3 Ravenwing Bike Squads
1x Attack bike
1x Landspeeder
Kinda scratching my head at this point, and wondering if I should just go for a full company list, and maybe add some tempestus scions in for good measure, along with (obviously) transports and aircraft. maybe some hellblasters too for heavy support and ignoring devastators entirely.
Get some plasma. You can go Devestators for the old skool appeal, Hellblasters for static offense, or Inceptors for point drop erasure.
Well my plan for the tactical squads (since they're the parts I have), is giving literally all of them plasma guns and heavy bolters, for a mobile force able to jump on objectives and pump out a lot of firepower without worrying about moving and losing accuracy with the heavy weapons too much.
Wyzilla wrote: So any advice for what's a good place to go from here? I've been amassing this for about 1.5 editions now in kits (mostly unbuilt), as I'm often drawn away from having the time to build and paint (health, school, etc).
6x10 tactical squads
1x5 Tart squad
1x5 Cat squad
1x Contemptor
1x Interrogator Chaplain
1x Azrael
2x3 Ravenwing Bike Squads
1x Attack bike
1x Landspeeder
Kinda scratching my head at this point, and wondering if I should just go for a full company list, and maybe add some tempestus scions in for good measure, along with (obviously) transports and aircraft. maybe some hellblasters too for heavy support and ignoring devastators entirely.
Get some plasma. You can go Devestators for the old skool appeal, Hellblasters for static offense, or Inceptors for point drop erasure.
Well my plan for the tactical squads (since they're the parts I have), is giving literally all of them plasma guns and heavy bolters, for a mobile force able to jump on objectives and pump out a lot of firepower without worrying about moving and losing accuracy with the heavy weapons too much.
With strategems like Weapons of the Dark Age, you need large amounts of plasma to really capitalize on them. I run a squad of 10 hellblasters, and they will auto erase anything they fire at with that strategem.
Wyzilla wrote: So any advice for what's a good place to go from here? I've been amassing this for about 1.5 editions now in kits (mostly unbuilt), as I'm often drawn away from having the time to build and paint (health, school, etc).
6x10 tactical squads
1x5 Tart squad
1x5 Cat squad
1x Contemptor
1x Interrogator Chaplain
1x Azrael
2x3 Ravenwing Bike Squads
1x Attack bike
1x Landspeeder
Kinda scratching my head at this point, and wondering if I should just go for a full company list, and maybe add some tempestus scions in for good measure, along with (obviously) transports and aircraft. maybe some hellblasters too for heavy support and ignoring devastators entirely.
Get some plasma. You can go Devestators for the old skool appeal, Hellblasters for static offense, or Inceptors for point drop erasure.
Well my plan for the tactical squads (since they're the parts I have), is giving literally all of them plasma guns and heavy bolters, for a mobile force able to jump on objectives and pump out a lot of firepower without worrying about moving and losing accuracy with the heavy weapons too much.
With strategems like Weapons of the Dark Age, you need large amounts of plasma to really capitalize on them. I run a squad of 10 hellblasters, and they will auto erase anything they fire at with that strategem.
Wyzilla wrote: So any advice for what's a good place to go from here? I've been amassing this for about 1.5 editions now in kits (mostly unbuilt), as I'm often drawn away from having the time to build and paint (health, school, etc).
6x10 tactical squads
1x5 Tart squad
1x5 Cat squad
1x Contemptor
1x Interrogator Chaplain
1x Azrael
2x3 Ravenwing Bike Squads
1x Attack bike
1x Landspeeder
Kinda scratching my head at this point, and wondering if I should just go for a full company list, and maybe add some tempestus scions in for good measure, along with (obviously) transports and aircraft. maybe some hellblasters too for heavy support and ignoring devastators entirely.
Get some plasma. You can go Devestators for the old skool appeal, Hellblasters for static offense, or Inceptors for point drop erasure.
Well my plan for the tactical squads (since they're the parts I have), is giving literally all of them plasma guns and heavy bolters, for a mobile force able to jump on objectives and pump out a lot of firepower without worrying about moving and losing accuracy with the heavy weapons too much.
With strategems like Weapons of the Dark Age, you need large amounts of plasma to really capitalize on them. I run a squad of 10 hellblasters, and they will auto erase anything they fire at with that strategem.
With 10 hellblasters? Damn.
Spoiler:
"You see that Titan?"
"Yes Sir?"
"It's blocking my view of the Emperor"
Played a game the other day against a Primaris army, never even super charged, just 1 strategem a turn, equaled 10 dead primaris marines a turn. My opponent brought 2 10 man hellblasters, and 2 10 man Intercessors, and after my Ancient and Apothecary were done they failed to inflict a single casualty, while I killed 40 Primaris marines.
So, I got an absolute steal on some Dark Angels models, and couldn't pass up the price. As such I find myself with three Dark Talons, Sammael (on bike), an a Talon Master Landspeeder.
I own plenty of scouts I could easily repaint to be DA, and as such, feel like I have 1000-ish points of very competitive stuff on my hands.
My question is, if I don't plan to invest in more Dark Angels, where would I go if I am planning Imperial Soup? My wife owns thousands of pts of Militarum, and Sisters, so I have a ton of options there, and I could reappropriate parts of my old Marine collection if needed.
I'm thinking the stuff here has Scouts for anti-deployment shenanigans, and anti-horde in droves, but am looking for anti-armor suggestions.
For context, the meaningful games around here are played under ITC format, and Zedsdead will tell you we have some tough-as-balls players coming to even store level events.
I mean, anti-armor for me in any imperial army is two things: lascannons and plasma.
Min sized Tac squads with a lascannon or Devastator squads with two lascanons (and not a lot of points spent otherwise) seem to be pretty effective. That's a convenient option because almost everyone has lascannons and marines just laying around.
Otherwise, if you're good with soup, Scions are one of the best units in the game and can take plasma. You don't get to abuse weapons from the dark age with them, but they're still good for putting some extra wounds on, well, just about anything.
If you're not opposed to Primaris, DA Hellblasters (as I think someone just said) can remove almost literally anything from play in a single turn because they can abuse weapons from the dark age.
Inceptors are flying and basically have two short range plasma cannons each. They also can use weapons from the dark age. That's nice.
daedalus wrote: I mean, anti-armor for me in any imperial army is two things: lascannons and plasma.
Min sized Tac squads with a lascannon or Devastator squads with two lascanons (and not a lot of points spent otherwise) seem to be pretty effective. That's a convenient option because almost everyone has lascannons and marines just laying around.
Otherwise, if you're good with soup, Scions are one of the best units in the game and can take plasma. You don't get to abuse weapons from the dark age with them, but they're still good for putting some extra wounds on, well, just about anything.
If you're not opposed to Primaris, DA Hellblasters (as I think someone just said) can remove almost literally anything from play in a single turn because they can abuse weapons from the dark age.
Inceptors are flying and basically have two short range plasma cannons each. They also can use weapons from the dark age. That's nice.
Scions are probably a huge no-no as under the ITC they give away kill points far too easily. I definitely entertained the thought though.
So what's the delivery system for Hellblasters? They seem strong, but I imagine getting them to their optimal range doesn't happen often against a knowledgeable opponent?
daedalus wrote: I mean, anti-armor for me in any imperial army is two things: lascannons and plasma.
Min sized Tac squads with a lascannon or Devastator squads with two lascanons (and not a lot of points spent otherwise) seem to be pretty effective. That's a convenient option because almost everyone has lascannons and marines just laying around.
Otherwise, if you're good with soup, Scions are one of the best units in the game and can take plasma. You don't get to abuse weapons from the dark age with them, but they're still good for putting some extra wounds on, well, just about anything.
If you're not opposed to Primaris, DA Hellblasters (as I think someone just said) can remove almost literally anything from play in a single turn because they can abuse weapons from the dark age.
Inceptors are flying and basically have two short range plasma cannons each. They also can use weapons from the dark age. That's nice.
Scions are probably a huge no-no as under the ITC they give away kill points far too easily. I definitely entertained the thought though.
So what's the delivery system for Hellblasters? They seem strong, but I imagine getting them to their optimal range doesn't happen often against a knowledgeable opponent?
Their feet. They have a 30" range on their gun. A round of movement gives them an effective 36" range, which is will pretty much ensure they can hit something of value turn 1.
daedalus wrote: I mean, anti-armor for me in any imperial army is two things: lascannons and plasma.
Min sized Tac squads with a lascannon or Devastator squads with two lascanons (and not a lot of points spent otherwise) seem to be pretty effective. That's a convenient option because almost everyone has lascannons and marines just laying around.
Otherwise, if you're good with soup, Scions are one of the best units in the game and can take plasma. You don't get to abuse weapons from the dark age with them, but they're still good for putting some extra wounds on, well, just about anything.
If you're not opposed to Primaris, DA Hellblasters (as I think someone just said) can remove almost literally anything from play in a single turn because they can abuse weapons from the dark age.
Inceptors are flying and basically have two short range plasma cannons each. They also can use weapons from the dark age. That's nice.
Scions are probably a huge no-no as under the ITC they give away kill points far too easily. I definitely entertained the thought though.
So what's the delivery system for Hellblasters? They seem strong, but I imagine getting them to their optimal range doesn't happen often against a knowledgeable opponent?
These boots are made for walking...With 30" range and 6" move you can usually zap something first turn. Walk forward in a stately pace with Azrael and Brother Bethor (a Chapter Ancient). I take Hellblasters and Devastators with Lascannon to help if I am going the long way across the board.
Hellblasters are undeniably good, but I want to remove them from my list because they’re the only Primaris models I’m running and it just doesn’t look right to me on the table. I’ve painted up a Plasma Cannon Devastator squad to replace them and satisfy my aesthetic tastes, but I haven’t put them on the table yet. Mathhammer wise they look like a respectable substitute and they make better use of Grim Resolve. Have any of you tried both, and if so, which do you prefer? For clarity it’s 5 Hellblasters or 9 Devastators with 4 cannons and a few changes to accommodate the points variation.
IandI wrote: Hellblasters are undeniably good, but I want to remove them from my list because they’re the only Primaris models I’m running and it just doesn’t look right to me on the table. I’ve painted up a Plasma Cannon Devastator squad to replace them and satisfy my aesthetic tastes, but I haven’t put them on the table yet. Mathhammer wise they look like a respectable substitute and they make better use of Grim Resolve. Have any of you tried both, and if so, which do you prefer? For clarity it’s 5 Hellblasters or 9 Devastators with 4 cannons and a few changes to accommodate the points variation.
Yo
Well you could add in a squad or two of inceptors and run 3 units of the primaris troops. That's addresses the aesthetic
Can we consider them to be efficient when we're actually paying hundreds of points in characters/units to give them boni ? I'm all for buffing the right stuff, but you're basically building your whole list around Hellblasters at this point. Your opponent could have first turn and focus them, and then your plans falls apart.
Aaranis wrote: Can we consider them to be efficient when we're actually paying hundreds of points in characters/units to give them boni ? I'm all for buffing the right stuff, but you're basically building your whole list around Hellblasters at this point. Your opponent could have first turn and focus them, and then your plans falls apart.
Two units of 10 Hellblasters, plus Azrael, a Lieutenant, an Ancient, and a Darkshroud clocks in at around 1100 points and change, so there is definitely room for other stuff to keep your opponent busy. Maybe drop a couple of distraction units like Reivers, or have a little firebase of Lascannon Devastators with a Master, or for good anti-infantry, a Talonmaster, Sammy in Sableclaw, a Dark Talon or three, hell, even the old reliable Assault Cannon Razorback. Yes, the Hellblasters are definitely the most dangerous thing and will catch a lot of aggro, but they won't be the only thing in the list.
One thing I'm wanting to try will be a flyer wing with a Stormraven (kitted out for anti-infantry) and two Dark Talons. I'd rather have a Fire Raptor instead of a Stormraven, but I'm unlikely to get one soon.
Just curious, but are the last few posters players of ITC format, or tournament-goers?
I'm asking sincerely, because in my meta, if I hinged 1000-ish points I supporting 10-20 Primeris Marines, i'd see them shot off the table on turn one. Footslogging Primeris have no hope around here, at least.
I know it isn't optimal, or even top-tier per se, but i'm going to try the items I mentioned getting earlier, and adding a Fire Raptor w/Las, and three Las-Preds as my anti-armor options. I suspect a good opponent will opt to remove a Predator immediately to deny me "Kill Shot", but it still seems more survivable, and longer range than the Hellblasters.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Just curious, but are the last few posters players of ITC format, or tournament-goers?
I'm asking sincerely, because in my meta, if I hinged 1000-ish points I supporting 10-20 Primeris Marines, i'd see them shot off the table on turn one. Footslogging Primeris have no hope around here, at least.
I know it isn't optimal, or even top-tier per se, but i'm going to try the items I mentioned getting earlier, and adding a Fire Raptor w/Las, and three Las-Preds as my anti-armor options. I suspect a good opponent will opt to remove a Predator immediately to deny me "Kill Shot", but it still seems more survivable, and longer range than the Hellblasters.
Check the descriptions of the ancient and Azrael. Also chekc the auspex stratagem.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Just curious, but are the last few posters players of ITC format, or tournament-goers?
I'm asking sincerely, because in my meta, if I hinged 1000-ish points I supporting 10-20 Primeris Marines, i'd see them shot off the table on turn one. Footslogging Primeris have no hope around here, at least.
I know it isn't optimal, or even top-tier per se, but i'm going to try the items I mentioned getting earlier, and adding a Fire Raptor w/Las, and three Las-Preds as my anti-armor options. I suspect a good opponent will opt to remove a Predator immediately to deny me "Kill Shot", but it still seems more survivable, and longer range than the Hellblasters.
I've been playing nothing but ITC since I started running these guys. They haven't been to a tournament yet, but I'm going to 1 GT, and 5 or 6 Major's, starting next month, with them this year.
The objectives are challenging at times, especially against horde armies, but against non-horde armies, I've just absolutely dominated.
Building a list around Hellblasters isn't a bad thing. I like to add the LT with jetpack and HF blade since he allows reroll 1s on wounds so buffs them more. The pack and blade make him my go to for counter assault and late turn Obj grabbing.
So i was thinking about maybe building a primarly primaris dark angels army.
Gonna cheat just a little by using a primaris captain as proxy for Azrael and some scouts squads, but i have some questions.
How many scout squads are needed to properly screen your army? If i could get away with using none i would, but my local meta is deep strike heavy, especially a raven guard player who likes to infiltrate agressors and deeps strike loads of plasma with that hq that gives reroll all misses.
Agressors seem like a good option for anti horde, especially since they seem pretty cheap for thier fire power.
What is the best choice between a second 10 man hellblaster squad or a 5 man inceptor plasma squad, while the inceptors have a harder time to get rerolls, being able to deeps strike seems like a good option to have.
ThePie wrote: So i was thinking about maybe building a primarly primaris dark angels army.
Gonna cheat just a little by using a primaris captain as proxy for Azrael and some scouts squads, but i have some questions.
put Azrael on a 32mm base. I talked to several Tournament organizers who said 40mm is too big for a model with a powerful aura that comes on a 25mm base.
I strapped a 90's plasma pistol on mine to satisfy WYSIWYG.
ThePie wrote: So i was thinking about maybe building a primarly primaris dark angels army.
Gonna cheat just a little by using a primaris captain as proxy for Azrael and some scouts squads, but i have some questions.
put Azrael on a 32mm base. I talked to several Tournament organizers who said 40mm is too big for a model with a powerful aura that comes on a 25mm base.
I strapped a 90's plasma pistol on mine to satisfy WYSIWYG.
Good points, i will make sure to do that as well.
So what primaris units do you use in your army and how effective do you find them?
So what primaris units do you use in your army and how effective do you find them?
Any primaris standing next to Azrael is super effective, especially Hellblasters and Aggressors. Bonus points for a company ancient.
Plasma Inceptors certainly have a place too so long as you can get a captain next to them when they drop, although Black Knights compete for that niche because they get Sammael, Speed of the Raven, and sometimes a darkshroud and/or talonmaster.
What does everyone think is the minimum # of Hellblasters needed to make an ancient worthwhile? Ive considered it for my list, but with only 10 hellblasters (and plasma inceptors likely landing outsid his aura) I'm not sure he is worth it.
EOD Tech wrote: What does everyone think is the minimum # of Hellblasters needed to make an ancient worthwhile? Ive considered it for my list, but with only 10 hellblasters (and plasma inceptors likely landing outsid his aura) I'm not sure he is worth it.
I thought about this a lot and instead of answering that question I just brought enough Aggressors to be surely worthwhile.
The company ancient is worth at least 30 points as a model with 4 wounds and 3 attacks, so he's worth taking if his banner can squeeze more than 33 points of value from dying Hellblasters, which happens to be the cost of one Hellblaster model.
It's harder to put a number on one more plasma shot. But I think the break even point is somewhere between 5 and 10 Hellblasters. So if you have 10 Hellblasters absolutely take an ancient, then give him a power sword or fist to help protect them.
Running some math hammer on a few possibilities, the Chapter ancient upgrade cost doesn't seem worthwhile if you've got the ancient in the Azrael bubble (where he should be anyways). Exceptions may include if you face lots of -1 to hit units.
EOD Tech wrote: Running some math hammer on a few possibilities, the Chapter ancient upgrade cost doesn't seem worthwhile if you've got the ancient in the Azrael bubble (where he should be anyways). Exceptions may include if you face lots of -1 to hit units.
I found ancient quite usefull in many situations. One time a knight killed 6 hellblasters, and as they were dying they managed to kill a stormtalon
EOD Tech wrote: Running some math hammer on a few possibilities, the Chapter ancient upgrade cost doesn't seem worthwhile if you've got the ancient in the Azrael bubble (where he should be anyways). Exceptions may include if you face lots of -1 to hit units.
Yeah, I stick to the Company Ancient. That extra 20 or so points for the 2+ to hit isn't really worth it to me. Especially since it's still a 50/50 if they're going to shoot in the first place.
Kitbashed myself a Company Ancient, as well as a cheap Azrael, which I built just by adding a flag on the backpack of the Dark Vengeance Master Thinking about building a better one when I'll have more kits though, I'm working with scrap.
Thinking about placing the Ancient with Azrael either on the backfield with my 10 Hellblasters and the 4x plasma cannons Devastators, or just constantly walking to get in rapid fire range with the Hellblasters. It will depend on my opponent's army, if I'm playing against Tau I'll just wait them to come nearby and see if they die in blazing glory. I'm already picturing the dying Primaris finding the strength to overcharge his gun and take revenge in a fiery explosion.
You could have the Ancient strolling alongside anything really, even with Deathwing Terminators so that they make their points back more efficiently, or even Knights. Although I prefer Ezekiel for accompanying Knights. I really want to build a deathstar of 10 Knights, Asmodai, a DW Ancient, Ezekiel and Belial. Belial is not even mandatory. 4 Attacks for each Knight, and a last one when dying, rerolling all failed hits, and maybe wounds too if Righteous Repugnance passes.
I'll definitely try this in an Apocalypse game someday.
I really want to run a couple 4man units of plasma inceptors. I think point for point they are the most damaging unit SM can field.
Problem I'm having is I really want an ancient near-by but the only way to get him close is to put him in a pod if I'm reading the codex/index correct.
This really isn't ideal because it increases my off the board drops (which I'm already struggling with) and is 85 points which I don't want to spend (already got an lt and master with jump packs.)
I could drop the jump packs on the master and LT and put them in the pod with the ancient but I loose so much mobility by not having a jump pack captain (I like to be able to drop the second unit of inceptors not right on top of the first one, in the rare event the first unit is still alive after it drops). Also I can't think of anything else good to put in the pod (if only aggressors could ride...)
So, any suggestions for getting more mobility on a ancient or good units to put into a pod (company vets with storm bolters and chainswords was what I was thinking. 2 x 3 of those with lt, ancient and captain)? Or am I totally over-estimating the killing power of inceptors and should go with a more traditional Azzy, shroud, hellblaster combo?
I really want to run a couple 4man units of plasma inceptors. I think point for point they are the most damaging unit SM can field.
Problem I'm having is I really want an ancient near-by but the only way to get him close is to put him in a pod if I'm reading the codex/index correct.
This really isn't ideal because it increases my off the board drops (which I'm already struggling with) and is 85 points which I don't want to spend (already got an lt and master with jump packs.)
I could drop the jump packs on the master and LT and put them in the pod with the ancient but I loose so much mobility by not having a jump pack captain (I like to be able to drop the second unit of inceptors not right on top of the first one, in the rare event the first unit is still alive after it drops). Also I can't think of anything else good to put in the pod (if only aggressors could ride...)
So, any suggestions for getting more mobility on a ancient or good units to put into a pod (company vets with storm bolters and chainswords was what I was thinking. 2 x 3 of those with lt, ancient and captain)? Or am I totally over-estimating the killing power of inceptors and should go with a more traditional Azzy, shroud, hellblaster combo?
My experience is inceptors die way to quickly to be worth it. I swapped out 12 inceptors for 3 predators, and the pay off was more then worth it.
I just really love the ability to land w/in 18" of something and have it dead, or at least mostly dead.
16ish 3 damage plasma shots @ 18" sounds really good to me. I can't find that for 250 or less even with the CP spent. I don't care if they don't get to turn 2 and hopefully I have an ancient nearby for "accidental" plasma deaths, hence the pod quandary. But then they are stuck in one spot and can't apply damage as efficiently.
They should be able to earn back their points in one round of shooting. With the option to come in two waves or one big clump gives a lot of tactical flexibility to a list with them.
Paired with Dark Talons and scout bikes for mobile chaff clearing it seems like it could be a really fun and competitive army if only I could find a way to keep the ancient mobile...
Anyone run anything similar and care to talk me out of my delusions? With some custode bikes or black knights? One dark shroud or two? Do I really need sableclaw?
Ravenwing do have advantages: speed of the Raven, Sammeal, and often a Darkshroud. Compared to inceptors, Black Knights trade shooting efficiency for durability, melee, and mobility.
Has anyone tried a DA / SW list using the Lion & Wolf stratagem? Any thoughts on this?
My thoughts would be to put the duelling buff on characters with powerfists or thunderhammers, seeing as the +1ws negates the -1 to hit on these weapons, the +1S makes them hit at S10 and the +1A further multiplies all this. Should combine well with a bike, jump pack or terminator armor.
If I were pairing space puppies and dark angels I'd probably do an Azrael gunline in the back and wulfen in the front, outflanking with their chapter approved stratagem Cunning of the Wolf.
Automatically Appended Next Post: also lots of scouts
Wow the spam is real with the first list. He really counted on tabling the opponent with so few units on the table, it could have gone wrong many times.
Second list is more varied that's for sure. Don't understand the Scouts with four shotguns and one sniper rifle though ?
Dominique Carette has an interesting list. Damn I want to try this one out. Have 2 Dreadknights I haven't used in a while that need a dusting off and a Voldus I just finished painting.
I'm assuming that clipped off Battalion is Celestine, Company commander and 3 units of Guard troops
Josh Kinders list is similar to what I run....however the Supreme command are Custode Shield Capts on bikes
Ricky has a nice all Primaris DA list. Not sure why he didn't go with scouts..
Been playing DoW II and now that I have access to Davian Thule I want some Dreadnoughts in my army saying "I have come to destroy you" Anyone have an opinion on them for our Dark Angels ? Non-FW preferably. What do they bring ? What's the good setups ?
Aaranis wrote: Been playing DoW II and now that I have access to Davian Thule I want some Dreadnoughts in my army saying "I have come to destroy you" Anyone have an opinion on them for our Dark Angels ? Non-FW preferably. What do they bring ? What's the good setups ?
I mean... they benefit from Grim Resolve right? So I suppose a small bunker of them could serve as anti-armor in the way you might use las-Preds?
I'd try running a couple with Las/Autocannon as an experiment, but the minute you need to move them they would lose a fair chunk of efficiency.
Aaranis wrote: Been playing DoW II and now that I have access to Davian Thule I want some Dreadnoughts in my army saying "I have come to destroy you" Anyone have an opinion on them for our Dark Angels ? Non-FW preferably. What do they bring ? What's the good setups ?
Use venerable dreads. they work very well.
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MilkmanAl wrote: The lists and results say a lot about Dark Talons. It's nothing we didn't already know, but I'm sure we'll see some changes to those relatively soon.
Well they only got a little cheaper but the stats stayed the same i think. They may nerf it a bit as long as they buf the deathwing.
Grimgold wrote: Looks decent, most 1k armies will have a hard time dealing with two units of hellblasters backed by azy. A master and Azrael should wreck anything that makes it into CC, at least at 1k points.
The issue with scouts at 1k is there is just so much board, and so little bubble wrap. I suppose you have 8 CP so having to drop 2 points for intractable won't hurt you too much, especially considering you have a chance to get part of it back, and a chance to get back points on incidentals like WFTDA.
Maybe you could go a little cheap on the master, drop him to a lt with a normal power sword and pistol, drop the extra scouts and get an ancient, which should make alpha striking your hellblasters a prickly proposition.
yea he needs the Ancient big time and I would dump the master for the LT with jump pack.
1000 Pts really should be playing on a 4X4 board. 1000pts is just to small for 6x4. played on both and the 4x4 was much better
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Machabees wrote: I have a big tournament coming up and am trying out a variety of lists. This is my current list and I would love some input please and thank you!
Azrael
Chapter Ancient
10 Hellblasters
3 x 5 Scouts
Sammael in Sableclaw
Talonmaster
2 x 3 Ravenwing Bikers
3 Plasma Inceptors
1 Darkshroud
2 x Dark Talons
8cp 2000pts
What do you guys think?
here is the problem with half gunline half ravenwing armies: you need expensive characters to make them work well. RW needs Sammy and a TM. Gunlines need Azzy and an CA to really work well. In this list you are paying big points for 4 Characters. IMHO its the one thing bad about DA... its hard to build competitive 'Mixed" DA armies without going outside the Dex. Personally I would choose to go one or the other.
I would go with the RW portion of your list and add in a Knight bike squad, 7 of them.. leave the Inceptors. they are so good Add in a RW Ancient and maybe a Libby on bike if you have the pts
Also try to move things around to get an Outrider detatchment for an extra CP
I honestly really like the half and half GW/RW list but I think that people just have the wrong idea about how to go with the gunline portion. They usually try and include Azrael and hellblasters etc which becomes way too super expensive and elite for your backfield when your ravenwing are going to be super expensive too. To me the point should be to keep your gunline cheap and effective. Tacticals/scouts/dreadnoughts/devestators with long range options and a lieutenant to support. With grim resolve you don't need to over spend. Everything in your gunline should just sit back re-rolling one's to hit and wound, capping objectives etc, while your RW work the forward board.
Widied wrote: I honestly really like the half and half GW/RW list but I think that people just have the wrong idea about how to go with the gunline portion. They usually try and include Azrael and hellblasters etc which becomes way too super expensive and elite for your backfield when your ravenwing are going to be super expensive too. To me the point should be to keep your gunline cheap and effective. Tacticals/scouts/dreadnoughts/devestators with long range options and a lieutenant to support. With grim resolve you don't need to over spend. Everything in your gunline should just sit back re-rolling one's to hit and wound, capping objectives etc, while your RW work the forward board.
That's a philosophy I'm having most of the time, we instinctively tend to maximise the output of our best units with the help of characters, to apply many buffs to said units, forming a sort of Death Star. I'm always worried in these cases that our opponent might have a strong counter or just a good tactic to deal with it and render said Star nigh useless, effectively disabling a good portion of our army. I said earlier that the efficiency of our best units only goes lower the more characters you add to them, at least partly. I believe we have to use these characters to benefit more than a single unit, like Hellblasters. If these go down, have a plan B so that the characters can still support the fight effectively, either by accompanying other units or by getting in the fight themselves. I think that if the list falls apart because a key unit is dismissed, it is a bad list. But I'm a fervent TAC-list user, so that's just my opinion.
I think it's natural to think that way. My goal when I saw the new book was to take advantage of speed (because the RW got sooooo good) and Grim Resolve. I personally think GR is great but you really need to build with it in mind. It's basically a free captain for certain units if you want it to be. You really need to rely on cheaper units to get the job done. My idea was to put most of my money points wise into Ravenwing and then take a cheap Greenwing contingent to offer up some efficient long range support and anti-armor which RW doesn't do as well.
My team at Adepticon actually played against Dominique Carette's team. Fantastic group of players. Easily the most fun game I had at Adepticon, and I played in 12 games there. The army is super cool too, full of awesome conversions.
Anywho, on topic, I'm glad most of these successful DA lists are similar enough to the direction I've gone with my own collection. Now that I've picked up some plasma Inceptors and plenty of Hellblasters, I need to build my second Dark Talon and then I'm set list and model-wise. I even ordered some left-side Lascannons from Forge World in order to try out Mortis Dreadnoughts. I think they'll be a good source of anti-tank to supplement my Hellblasters. After that it's just a matter of tightening up my game and learning to play smarter, something I found out the hard way at Adepticon.
On a Dev Sarge, I say keep him cheap, maybe splurge on a storm bolter if you have a couple of points left over. He's usually the first casualty in a 5-man, 4-heavy weapon squad. If you were to be using a drop pod to deploy your devs (with grav or something) he could take a combi-plasma I guess, but devs usually don't operate close enough to be worth paying points for such a weapon.
Is anyone able to explain the BA command detatchment in this list? Are the three characters just used as melee beatsticks? I don't really see the synergy
Is anyone able to explain the BA command detatchment in this list? Are the three characters just used as melee beatsticks? I don't really see the synergy
Can the Dark Angel Lieutenant be given just a Bolt Pistol and Chainsword to be kept uber cheap? I was messing around with some DA lists on Battle Scribe and it won't let me do this with DA. However, this is legal on regular SM on Battlescribe. I assume this is just weird programming since the lieutenant would be a standard choice. I have the SM codex but not the DA one and was just messing with some lists. Really like the Ravenwing or even some of the Hellblaster combos that are there.
I believe so. It' is probably a programming error. He comes in at 60 pts stock I believe.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm wondering if anyone has done any Ravenwing/Custodes lists (Particularly the jetbikes) and how has it been working out for you? They are expensive but they seem like they might compliment the speed well and offer some punch.
hoya4life3381 wrote: Can the Dark Angel Lieutenant be given just a Bolt Pistol and Chainsword to be kept uber cheap? I was messing around with some DA lists on Battle Scribe and it won't let me do this with DA. However, this is legal on regular SM on Battlescribe. I assume this is just weird programming since the lieutenant would be a standard choice. I have the SM codex but not the DA one and was just messing with some lists. Really like the Ravenwing or even some of the Hellblaster combos that are there.
Did you accidentally select a primaris lieutentant? They don't have a chainsword option.
hoya4life3381 wrote: Can the Dark Angel Lieutenant be given just a Bolt Pistol and Chainsword to be kept uber cheap? I was messing around with some DA lists on Battle Scribe and it won't let me do this with DA. However, this is legal on regular SM on Battlescribe. I assume this is just weird programming since the lieutenant would be a standard choice. I have the SM codex but not the DA one and was just messing with some lists. Really like the Ravenwing or even some of the Hellblaster combos that are there.
Did you accidentally select a primaris lieutentant? They don't have a chainsword option.
Nope I just was 3 points short in my army. I wanted to see if it is possible to take a base Lieutenant for 60 points. To get the 3 points, I wanted to drop the MC Boltgun. In BS, it allows be to do that for vanilla marines but not for DA. I did the same with BA and it wasn't allowed too.
Was wondering if this is a legal combination to do that. Reading the vanilla marine codex again, it says the model comes with MC boltgun, bolt pistol, and chainsword. It says you can replace Boltgun with other weapons. But I don't think I'm allowed to replace the Boltgun with another bolt pistol. Every other option would cost more which isn't what I want.
So in essence is the lowest cost Lieutenant 60 points or 63? It's programmed wrong somewhere in BS.
hoya4life3381 wrote: Can the Dark Angel Lieutenant be given just a Bolt Pistol and Chainsword to be kept uber cheap? I was messing around with some DA lists on Battle Scribe and it won't let me do this with DA. However, this is legal on regular SM on Battlescribe. I assume this is just weird programming since the lieutenant would be a standard choice. I have the SM codex but not the DA one and was just messing with some lists. Really like the Ravenwing or even some of the Hellblaster combos that are there.
Did you accidentally select a primaris lieutentant? They don't have a chainsword option.
Nope I just was 3 points short in my army. I wanted to see if it is possible to take a base Lieutenant for 60 points. To get the 3 points, I wanted to drop the MC Boltgun. In BS, it allows be to do that for vanilla marines but not for DA. I did the same with BA and it wasn't allowed too.
Was wondering if this is a legal combination to do that. Reading the vanilla marine codex again, it says the model comes with MC boltgun, bolt pistol, and chainsword. It says you can replace Boltgun with other weapons. But I don't think I'm allowed to replace the Boltgun with another bolt pistol. Every other option would cost more which isn't what I want.
So in essence is the lowest cost Lieutenant 60 points or 63? It's programmed wrong somewhere in BS.
DA have a separate repository from vanilla marines. It's possible you could raise and issue and perform a fix for the next upload.
hoya4life3381 wrote: Can the Dark Angel Lieutenant be given just a Bolt Pistol and Chainsword to be kept uber cheap? I was messing around with some DA lists on Battle Scribe and it won't let me do this with DA. However, this is legal on regular SM on Battlescribe. I assume this is just weird programming since the lieutenant would be a standard choice. I have the SM codex but not the DA one and was just messing with some lists. Really like the Ravenwing or even some of the Hellblaster combos that are there.
Did you accidentally select a primaris lieutentant? They don't have a chainsword option.
Nope I just was 3 points short in my army. I wanted to see if it is possible to take a base Lieutenant for 60 points. To get the 3 points, I wanted to drop the MC Boltgun. In BS, it allows be to do that for vanilla marines but not for DA. I did the same with BA and it wasn't allowed too.
Was wondering if this is a legal combination to do that. Reading the vanilla marine codex again, it says the model comes with MC boltgun, bolt pistol, and chainsword. It says you can replace Boltgun with other weapons. But I don't think I'm allowed to replace the Boltgun with another bolt pistol. Every other option would cost more which isn't what I want.
So in essence is the lowest cost Lieutenant 60 points or 63? It's programmed wrong somewhere in BS.
DA have a separate repository from vanilla marines. It's possible you could raise and issue and perform a fix for the next upload.
So is a 60 point lieutenant legal or not? Or does it start at 63? Ignoring battle scribe as it is not the arbiter of rules and am sure there are tiny errors everywhere.
axisofentropy wrote: Neither battlescribe nor dakka are a replacement for your codex. Get a copy. The wargear options on the dataslate are clear.
To be fair though if you are looking to save some cash they do a pretty good job subbing in. I wouldn't take them to a tournament, but besides that their rate of accuracy is very high. Cross checking with 1d4chan tactics is also pretty solid, but do watch for 1d4chan because of course some liberties are taking with rule interpretations.
I put him on a 32mm base, slapped a plasma pistol to his gauntlet, and now he's an Azrael that matches my other primaris dudes that he combos with so well.
hoya4life3381 wrote: Can the Dark Angel Lieutenant be given just a Bolt Pistol and Chainsword to be kept uber cheap? I was messing around with some DA lists on Battle Scribe and it won't let me do this with DA. However, this is legal on regular SM on Battlescribe. I assume this is just weird programming since the lieutenant would be a standard choice. I have the SM codex but not the DA one and was just messing with some lists. Really like the Ravenwing or even some of the Hellblaster combos that are there.
Did you accidentally select a primaris lieutentant? They don't have a chainsword option.
Nope I just was 3 points short in my army. I wanted to see if it is possible to take a base Lieutenant for 60 points. To get the 3 points, I wanted to drop the MC Boltgun. In BS, it allows be to do that for vanilla marines but not for DA. I did the same with BA and it wasn't allowed too.
Was wondering if this is a legal combination to do that. Reading the vanilla marine codex again, it says the model comes with MC boltgun, bolt pistol, and chainsword. It says you can replace Boltgun with other weapons. But I don't think I'm allowed to replace the Boltgun with another bolt pistol. Every other option would cost more which isn't what I want.
So in essence is the lowest cost Lieutenant 60 points or 63? It's programmed wrong somewhere in BS.
DA have a separate repository from vanilla marines. It's possible you could raise and issue and perform a fix for the next upload.
So is a 60 point lieutenant legal or not? Or does it start at 63? Ignoring battle scribe as it is not the arbiter of rules and am sure there are tiny errors everywhere.
It's legal, but you'd have to take 2 chainswords or two bolt pistols by the looks of it.
He's fun for casual games, but not competitive for tournament play. The model is awesome though!
One thought I did have for him is that I think he can replace his sword with the Heavenfall Blade, which on a model with that many attacks could be pretty spicy!
He's fun for casual games, but not competitive for tournament play. The model is awesome though!
One thought I did have for him is that I think he can replace his sword with the Heavenfall Blade, which on a model with that many attacks could be pretty spicy!
Once he's in combat that could be fun. Would probably need to be taking a Repulsor for it to be worth it though
He's fun for casual games, but not competitive for tournament play. The model is awesome though!
One thought I did have for him is that I think he can replace his sword with the Heavenfall Blade, which on a model with that many attacks could be pretty spicy!
Once he's in combat that could be fun. Would probably need to be taking a Repulsor for it to be worth it though
Probably right on the Repulsor thing. Maybe stick four Aggressors in there as well and make a true Party Bus out of it!
I was thinking that aggressors is about all he would pair well with. Has to get up close and personal, with no way to do it other than footslogging or repulsor. That's 135pts that's very situational.
What do you guys think is a good loadout for a jump pack Master to accompany a squad of plasma Inceptors (allowing them to reroll 1's and avoid blowing themselves to kingdom come)? I was thinking of Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, but that's a bit expensive on a "babysitter" character. He'd be a nasty charge deterrent, though!
Also, for making said Master, I was thinking of using an Inceptor body as the base for a conversion. Would players be okay with that, or would they be put off by the fact that he's a non-Primaris character who's the size of a Primaris marine? I realize this question isn't tactical, but it's related.
ZergSmasher wrote: What do you guys think is a good loadout for a jump pack Master to accompany a squad of plasma Inceptors (allowing them to reroll 1's and avoid blowing themselves to kingdom come)? I was thinking of Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, but that's a bit expensive on a "babysitter" character. He'd be a nasty charge deterrent, though!
Also, for making said Master, I was thinking of using an Inceptor body as the base for a conversion. Would players be okay with that, or would they be put off by the fact that he's a non-Primaris character who's the size of a Primaris marine? I realize this question isn't tactical, but it's related.
I'm not sure about the Inceptor conversion, that might throw me off a bit since inceptors look very different from regular jump packs.
I think inceptors are going to be focused down pretty fast to bother throwing the cost of a master in with them. Maybe if you concentrated on a drop in force, and added some termies with storm bolters, as well as a master or Belial, that might make your opponent have to make a tough choice about what to focus on. Belial would reroll all misses for the stormbolters, and 1's for the inceptors.
I wouldn't bother with the master if you are running Sammael / Talon Master especially. You can usually wait and drop them in near them for the re-rolls of 1's.
I was thinking of running them along with an Azrael Hellblaster gunline as something to take a little heat off of those units, with the Master adding a viable melee threat as he buffs the Inceptors. Good point about Sammael, though, and in a more mobile list I'll definitely run him.
How do people feel about Mortis Dreadnoughts? I ordered some left-side lascannons to make a couple of them (swappable with regular dread options of course). I feel like they could be good since they benefit from Grim Resolve, meaning they don't need a babysitter character so much.
Have people thought of using a Bastion to anchor a large hellblaster unit?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZergSmasher wrote: What do you guys think is a good loadout for a jump pack Master to accompany a squad of plasma Inceptors (allowing them to reroll 1's and avoid blowing themselves to kingdom come)? I was thinking of Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, but that's a bit expensive on a "babysitter" character. He'd be a nasty charge deterrent, though!
Also, for making said Master, I was thinking of using an Inceptor body as the base for a conversion. Would players be okay with that, or would they be put off by the fact that he's a non-Primaris character who's the size of a Primaris marine? I realize this question isn't tactical, but it's related.
When I was toying with Inceptors, I had a master and Lt. jump in with them. The Master had a Relic Blade and Combi-Plasma, while the Lt. had a Heavenfall blade and combi-plasma. With the boosts they gave the inceptors, they were also a very powerful cc deterrent.
ZergSmasher wrote: What do you guys think is a good loadout for a jump pack Master to accompany a squad of plasma Inceptors (allowing them to reroll 1's and avoid blowing themselves to kingdom come)? I was thinking of Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, but that's a bit expensive on a "babysitter" character. He'd be a nasty charge deterrent, though!
If you're not running a Talonmaster, give him the Heavenfall blade. I'd suggest taking at least 6 Inceptors to get the most out of WotDA and make them harder to deal with
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djones520 wrote: Have people thought of using a Bastion to anchor a large hellblaster unit?
My issue with this is that it pretty much forces you to take the heavy incinerators and effectively immobilised the unit. The great thing about running Az with regular incinerators is that you can move around (and double your shots when you get close enough). If you already prefer running heavy incinerators then it's probably a decent idea because it does vastly improve the unit's durability.
I'm looking at bringing my Dark Angels army up to par with 8th ed - so what's the consensus on a ravenwing build army for around 1500-2000 points in a FLGS / local tourney setting? Would it be better to build out to green wing and primaris, or could I potentially salvage what I've got. If I go primaris, I'm going all in because I refuse to have primaris marines on the table with the regular space marines - I don't like the size contrast. I'm looking at my roster build from the end of 7th where I was utilizing a Ravenwing heavy army including Sammael, landspeeders, dark talon, black knights, dark shroud, bikers and assault bikes. I do have the dark vengeance kit and all that comes with but I never used them much save for sub 1000 point matches. I'd like to utilize as much as my ravenwing as possible, but I expect that I'll need to fill out a battalion for the CP's and support. What are everyone's thoughts?
eternalxfl wrote: I'm looking at bringing my Dark Angels army up to par with 8th ed - so what's the consensus on a ravenwing build army for around 1500-2000 points in a FLGS / local tourney setting? Would it be better to build out to green wing and primaris, or could I potentially salvage what I've got. If I go primaris, I'm going all in because I refuse to have primaris marines on the table with the regular space marines - I don't like the size contrast. I'm looking at my roster build from the end of 7th where I was utilizing a Ravenwing heavy army including Sammael, landspeeders, dark talon, black knights, dark shroud, bikers and assault bikes. I do have the dark vengeance kit and all that comes with but I never used them much save for sub 1000 point matches. I'd like to utilize as much as my ravenwing as possible, but I expect that I'll need to fill out a battalion for the CP's and support. What are everyone's thoughts?
I think you can certainly use your ravenwing, just get three squads of scouts for a batallion and the ravenwing upgrade sprue to turn landspeeders into a talonmaster
eternalxfl wrote: I'm looking at bringing my Dark Angels army up to par with 8th ed - so what's the consensus on a ravenwing build army for around 1500-2000 points in a FLGS / local tourney setting? Would it be better to build out to green wing and primaris, or could I potentially salvage what I've got. If I go primaris, I'm going all in because I refuse to have primaris marines on the table with the regular space marines - I don't like the size contrast. I'm looking at my roster build from the end of 7th where I was utilizing a Ravenwing heavy army including Sammael, landspeeders, dark talon, black knights, dark shroud, bikers and assault bikes. I do have the dark vengeance kit and all that comes with but I never used them much save for sub 1000 point matches. I'd like to utilize as much as my ravenwing as possible, but I expect that I'll need to fill out a battalion for the CP's and support. What are everyone's thoughts?
I think you can certainly use your ravenwing, just get three squads of scouts for a batallion and the ravenwing upgrade sprue to turn landspeeders into a talonmaster
Yea I picked up a LS to use along with my upgrade sprue to get a Talonmaster modeled. I'm finding that things are starting to get expensive when I include Sammael as well as the Talonmaster. Is there a preferred choice, or is their combo just that gnarly that I auto-include them both?
ChargerIIC wrote: +20 pts to a Dark Talon. BRB emergency rebalance of my list.
correct me if im wrong but isnt it 40 points increase ? im shocked at this one. i expected an increase but 40 points each ? thats silly....
I'm trying to figure that out. It's 180 points base, but doesn't have any of it's equipment in the wargear list and can't swap any of the gear out. Am I missing something?
ChargerIIC wrote: +20 pts to a Dark Talon. BRB emergency rebalance of my list.
correct me if im wrong but isnt it 40 points increase ? im shocked at this one. i expected an increase but 40 points each ? thats silly....
I'm trying to figure that out. It's 180 points base, but doesn't have any of it's equipment in the wargear list and can't swap any of the gear out. Am I missing something?
Its 180 pts without wargear so you will need to fork up another 20 pts for the bolters
ChargerIIC wrote: +20 pts to a Dark Talon. BRB emergency rebalance of my list.
correct me if im wrong but isnt it 40 points increase ? im shocked at this one. i expected an increase but 40 points each ? thats silly....
I'm trying to figure that out. It's 180 points base, but doesn't have any of it's equipment in the wargear list and can't swap any of the gear out. Am I missing something?
Its 180 pts without wargear so you will need to fork up another 20 pts for the bolters
exactly.. that's the way I read it.
I'm sorry but that's a bit much. a points increase and a 0-3 restriction ?? the restriction was good enough.
ChargerIIC wrote: +20 pts to a Dark Talon. BRB emergency rebalance of my list.
correct me if im wrong but isnt it 40 points increase ? im shocked at this one. i expected an increase but 40 points each ? thats silly....
I'm trying to figure that out. It's 180 points base, but doesn't have any of it's equipment in the wargear list and can't swap any of the gear out. Am I missing something?
Its 180 pts without wargear so you will need to fork up another 20 pts for the bolters
exactly.. that's the way I read it.
I'm sorry but that's a bit much. a points increase and a 0-3 restriction ?? the restriction was good enough.
Hey, at least it didnt go up 90 pts as the fire raptor That said I think a 20 pts increase would have been justified even with the 0-3 change. 40 pts seems a little much. Seems like Leman russ squadrons will be the new black now...
ChargerIIC wrote: Some tidbits if you ran Fallen, but nope - pretty much the Dark Talon nerf
Wonder how much work it'll be to convert a dark talon to a nephilim..
its super easy!
Just take off the magnetized riftcannon, hurricane bolters and stasis bomb and exchange it with your magnetized nephilim bits.
I'm pretty sure you just should put the whole thing in your closet for a while. Nephilim hasn't been good since....ever. I'd still run it as a Dark Talon, personally.
So, as far as the FAQ and its impact on the Unforgiven as far as I can tell:
-Dark Talons took a massive kick in the nuts. I'm not sure they are worth running at all for 200 points, plus we can't take more than 3 (thanks to whoever it was that ran 8 of them at Adepticon for putting the Dark Talon on GW's nerf radar). Limiting to 3 and only raising 10 or 20 points would have been fine, but 40 points? -As TedNugent said above, Deathwing is truly dead now, if it wasn't already in competitive play. Here I was hoping they'd make Termies actually good, but instead they made all termies everywhere categorically worse. -Strangely, they whacked Dark Talons with the nerf bat, and they touched Bobby G, but they left Azrael alone. I'm very glad our favorite mini-Primarch is still really good and will now form the core of even more lists as players abandon their Dark Talons in droves.
-I think we may see more Devastators and other gunline stuff since the need for cheap chaff has decreased. Scouts will still be our cheap troop choice, but now we may see more Intercessors hit the table since they are a better gunline unit.
-Inceptors took a minor hit with the turn 1 DS nerf, but they are probably still solid even if held back until turn 2, and can even drop in your DZ on turn 1 and get work done if your opponent is running a melee army that has to come across no man's land to reach you.
-With the aforementioned nerf to the Talon and also the one to the Fire Raptor, plus the fact that Nephilims are still not great, the Stormraven is looking a lot better. Start it next to a Darkshroud for -2 save goodness.
-We can still ally in some of our friends, just in different detachments. Celestine for -1CP or in a patrol with a Battle Sister Squad, or 3 Assassins in a Vanguard (no HQ needed per the FAQ). Plus the old standby of 3 Custodes JetCaptains should still work.
Yes, I'm salty about the Talons, but rather than grouse about it, I'm going to see what I can come up with for our boys in green. Our top build (Azrael Gunline with Hellblasters and Devastators) is still very good, in fact if anything it got better now that Battalions give 5 CP, so DA are still a solid army, with some decent ally options.
Yeah, this FAQ did nothing negative to my Greenwing (that's black), so all in all, I feel it just became better, because a lot of armies got worse.
Now that I don't need to worry about dealing with 3 Fire Raptors, or 7 Hive Tyrants, or other crap like that, I know my small but destructive force will live longer to get done what they need to.
With Dark Talons essentially out of the mix, I'm liking the alliance of a Custodes Outrider for some horde clearing and combat toughness supported by Azrael and some Hellblasters. It's more Custodes than DA, but it's a nifty combo, especially with the extra CP from Battalions!
The best thing about playing Dark Angels this edition is that you receive 0 changes, be it CA, your 2-week FAQ, the BIG FAQ, etc... so I only need my codex to play
MilkmanAl wrote: With Dark Talons essentially out of the mix, I'm liking the alliance of a Custodes Outrider for some horde clearing and combat toughness supported by Azrael and some Hellblasters. It's more Custodes than DA, but it's a nifty combo, especially with the extra CP from Battalions!
I have been playing Greenwing with allied Custodes, they work great. Greenwing for your longe range support, Custodes for jetbikes and meele godness.
MilkmanAl wrote: With Dark Talons essentially out of the mix, I'm liking the alliance of a Custodes Outrider for some horde clearing and combat toughness supported by Azrael and some Hellblasters. It's more Custodes than DA, but it's a nifty combo, especially with the extra CP from Battalions!
You could always take a supreme command detachment with jetbike shield captains instead
Automatically Appended Next Post: What do people think of black knights now that theyre one of the few units that can turn 1 charge? I think a big unit of them (or two) with supporting characters is looking more viable
I'm not exactly playing anything competitive, but I have noticed that literally everyone making competitive lists is using Scouts.
I've always been opposed to the aesthetics and the idea of Scouts as troops in a mainline list.
I realize that Tacticals are not that exciting, albeit with two considerations - 1 the infiltration nerf and 2 - the number of genuine improvements they have seen since 5th edition.
I lean towards them in terms of fluff and aesthetics - plus, I have a lot of them from Dark Vengeance.
Is there any reason that I should be categorically opposed to running 5 man tactical combi plas/plas, or even 10 man combi/plas/cannon squads?
Perhaps I just have a mental block against Primaris marines in DA since it doesn't really make sense in their tiered knowledge setup. Ironically I view standard greenwing marines as being elite, old guard DA in comparison to Primaris newbie scrublords. Incidentally even though the Primaris Lieutenant Zakariah looks great in his robe, I also find this offensive. What is that clown doing with rank and in robes, when he is wet behind the ears in comparison to my standard bolter pleb in olive drab?
Anyway, what's the deal. I know people are against tacticals, but are they still so atrocious that I am a fool to use them?
TedNugent wrote: I'm not exactly playing anything competitive, but I have noticed that literally everyone making competitive lists is using Scouts.
I've always been opposed to the aesthetics and the idea of Scouts as troops in a mainline list.
I realize that Tacticals are not that exciting, albeit with two considerations - 1 the infiltration nerf and 2 - the number of genuine improvements they have seen since 5th edition.
I lean towards them in terms of fluff and aesthetics - plus, I have a lot of them from Dark Vengeance.
Is there any reason that I should be categorically opposed to running 5 man tactical combi plas/plas, or even 10 man combi/plas/cannon squads?
Perhaps I just have a mental block against Primaris marines in DA since it doesn't really make sense in their tiered knowledge setup. Ironically I view standard greenwing marines as being elite, old guard DA in comparison to Primaris newbie scrublords. Incidentally even though the Primaris Lieutenant Zakariah looks great in his robe, I also find this offensive. What is that clown doing with rank and in robes, when he is wet behind the ears in comparison to my standard bolter pleb in olive drab?
Anyway, what's the deal. I know people are against tacticals, but are they still so atrocious that I am a fool to use them?
Competitively, tacticals suffer from the problem of not having any job that they do well. They are generalists in a game where specialists tend to rule. I've tried them a little, and was underwhelmed, to say the least. That said, Combiplasma/plasma is probably the way to go if you insist on using them, and you can double them up in a Rhino or drop pod. Comparing them to the other troop choices, Scouts are cheaper, while Intercessors are twice as durable, at least against 1 damage weapons, and their bolt rifles have better range and AP.
Believe me, I want tacticals to be good, as I myself have a ton of them from last edition when I was building a Lion's Blade force (that I never even got a chance to field). They just aren't cutting it, at least in competitive play. They can be fun and flavorful in a more casual setting though, so go crazy!
You'll get far more mileage out of the Razorback than its passengers. I tried this very thing, and that's what happened: the Razorback put in solid work, but the Tacticals got one shooting attack that didn't make a hell of a lot of difference, and then they died without too much effort on my opponent's part.
I actually did think of one possible decent use of a tac squad: stick them in cover with a Lascannon. They become a bit more of a pain in the butt for your opponent, as he'll have to commit more firepower than a tactical squad is really worth to remove them. At the same time, he doesn't want to keep getting his vehicles nailed with a lascannon every turn, so he needs to commit that firepower, meaning he doesn't have it to use on the rest of your army. It's a niche use, but probably the only real way to make tacs do something the other troop options can't do better.
What do people think of black knights now that theyre one of the few units that can turn 1 charge? I think a big unit of them (or two) with supporting characters is looking more viable
you don't pay 46 points for their hammers. You generally don't want them in combat, you want them exactly 18" away from your opponent's scariest units. Sure I can imagine using Speed of the Raven into a big screen and then Intractable the next turn, but then they risk getting too far from the Darkshroud.
Anyway I have a max unit of 10 in my competitive list now. We'll see how that goes in May.
I'm thinking of using an imperial bastion to protect hellblasters but what i cant figure out is whether embarked hellblasters will be able to benefit from grim resolve and rerol 1s?
Does anyone know?
What do people think of black knights now that theyre one of the few units that can turn 1 charge? I think a big unit of them (or two) with supporting characters is looking more viable
you don't pay 46 points for their hammers. You generally don't want them in combat, you want them exactly 18" away from your opponent's scariest units. Sure I can imagine using Speed of the Raven into a big screen and then Intractable the next turn, but then they risk getting too far from the Darkshroud.
Anyway I have a max unit of 10 in my competitive list now. We'll see how that goes in May.
Yeah I guess it's a case of just because you can doesn't mean you should...
Still running the greenwing / RW hybrid list from a few pages back? I look forward to hearing how it goes
Timur wrote:I'm thinking of using an imperial bastion to protect hellblasters but what i cant figure out is whether embarked hellblasters will be able to benefit from grim resolve and rerol 1s?
Does anyone know?
As was said above you're probably better off with devastators, but either way I don't see why the unit wouldn't benefit from grim resolve
5 man tac sqds with a lascannon is a decent unit. It spreads your firepower (a lascannon dev sqd can be cleared easily) so you still have lascannons to hurl across the table, plus objective secured.
Monobuild Ravenwing and Deathwing both took a further kick in the nuts. Ravenwing with the increased cost of Dark Talons plus low CP generation for using Outrider detachments, and Deathwing with the new Deepstrike rule and low CP generation as above but with Vanguard.
I would really like to see Ravenwing bike sqds counts as Troops if every unit in the detachment had the keyword "Ravenwing". Same for Deathwing, but Terminator sqds as troops. Yes, you would have to use the Inner Circle strategem to make your Dreads and Land Raiders Deathwing (so would lose some CPs there) but should still come out ahead. Alternatively, if all share same Ravenwing or Deathwing keyword, make it 3CPs for Outrider and Vanguard instead.
Not a fan of them personally but I think tacs are more viable now that the DS nerf has made scouts less mandatory. I think we're more likely to see an increased number of Intercessor units rather than tac squads though
People getting all salty and wanna convert DT into Nephilim without even playing a game? Seriously? Yes, Dark Talon was undercosted for the benefits it gave and yes the 40p increase is too steep imo but i think its still viable. There is no Flyer in the game which can fly 60'' over a 10man dev squad/reaper sq 1st turn from the edge of the table and deliver that many mortal wounds just for passing over with a single cp.
And dont forget that some guy walked into LVO with 8 Dark Talons...
As for the DS nerf, its Beta rule and i dont think its gonna pass. So scouts still playable for the most part.
Going to be playing with a ferocious Tau player tomorrow, 2000 pts. I know he uses Farsight and plays kinda WAAC so I expect to get bummed. Also, shop is not using beta rules, except if both players agree, and OF COURSE he doesn't want to, he plays Farsight.
What should I be wary of ? I've played him once with his Index pre-Tau Commander nerf and got raped severely (didn't know he was going to play such a list to be honest), playing a pure Stygies VIII AdMech list. My 3 Dragoons feel useless against Tau due to insane Overwatch. Was going to play my 10 Fulgurites and 3 Dragoons in Infiltration but I wonder. Have 2 Battalion, Stygies and Dark Angels with 10 Hellblasters, Ancient and some stuff. Can post the list if you want. Anyone ever played against a good Tau player recently (post-codex) ?
ChargerIIC wrote: Some tidbits if you ran Fallen, but nope - pretty much the Dark Talon nerf
Wonder how much work it'll be to convert a dark talon to a nephilim..
its super easy!
Just take off the magnetized riftcannon, hurricane bolters and stasis bomb and exchange it with your magnetized nephilim bits.
I got lucky as heck. The 'Dark Talon' I was buying off a friend turned out to be a 100% Nephilim Fighter. I ain't complaining. Course now I have two fighters I need to pry the avenger bolters off of to do some magnetizing of the nose weapons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Noneisbackhere wrote: People getting all salty and wanna convert DT into Nephilim without even playing a game? Seriously? Yes, Dark Talon was undercosted for the benefits it gave and yes the 40p increase is too steep imo but i think its still viable. There is no Flyer in the game which can fly 60'' over a 10man dev squad/reaper sq 1st turn from the edge of the table and deliver that many mortal wounds just for passing over with a single cp.
And dont forget that some guy walked into LVO with 8 Dark Talons...
As for the DS nerf, its Beta rule and i dont think its gonna pass. So scouts still playable for the most part.
I've played with both and even got in a post-FAQ game in last night. Both are good fighters but are really similar in performance. The Dark Talon edges out because of the Stasis Bomb but that's not worth 25 points of difference. I'm swapping from 2 Dark Talons, 1 Nephilim to two nephilim, 1 dark talon.
ChargerIIC wrote: Some tidbits if you ran Fallen, but nope - pretty much the Dark Talon nerf
Wonder how much work it'll be to convert a dark talon to a nephilim..
its super easy!
Just take off the magnetized riftcannon, hurricane bolters and stasis bomb and exchange it with your magnetized nephilim bits.
I got lucky as heck. The 'Dark Talon' I was buying off a friend turned out to be a 100% Nephilim Fighter. I ain't complaining. Course now I have two fighters I need to pry the avenger bolters off of to do some magnetizing of the nose weapons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Noneisbackhere wrote: People getting all salty and wanna convert DT into Nephilim without even playing a game? Seriously? Yes, Dark Talon was undercosted for the benefits it gave and yes the 40p increase is too steep imo but i think its still viable. There is no Flyer in the game which can fly 60'' over a 10man dev squad/reaper sq 1st turn from the edge of the table and deliver that many mortal wounds just for passing over with a single cp.
And dont forget that some guy walked into LVO with 8 Dark Talons...
As for the DS nerf, its Beta rule and i dont think its gonna pass. So scouts still playable for the most part.
I've played with both and even got in a post-FAQ game in last night. Both are good fighters but are really similar in performance. The Dark Talon edges out because of the Stasis Bomb but that's not worth 25 points of difference. I'm swapping from 2 Dark Talons, 1 Nephilim to two nephilim, 1 dark talon.
I played a post Faq game last night as well.. ran 3 DTs and 1 Neph. I still found the DT to be better in every way. The Hurricanes hitting on 2s and the SB is so good situationally.
Unfortuantly ran against Eldar and took a loss. But i still think the DT is way better.
ChargerIIC wrote: Some tidbits if you ran Fallen, but nope - pretty much the Dark Talon nerf
Wonder how much work it'll be to convert a dark talon to a nephilim..
its super easy!
Just take off the magnetized riftcannon, hurricane bolters and stasis bomb and exchange it with your magnetized nephilim bits.
I got lucky as heck. The 'Dark Talon' I was buying off a friend turned out to be a 100% Nephilim Fighter. I ain't complaining. Course now I have two fighters I need to pry the avenger bolters off of to do some magnetizing of the nose weapons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Noneisbackhere wrote: People getting all salty and wanna convert DT into Nephilim without even playing a game? Seriously? Yes, Dark Talon was undercosted for the benefits it gave and yes the 40p increase is too steep imo but i think its still viable. There is no Flyer in the game which can fly 60'' over a 10man dev squad/reaper sq 1st turn from the edge of the table and deliver that many mortal wounds just for passing over with a single cp.
And dont forget that some guy walked into LVO with 8 Dark Talons...
As for the DS nerf, its Beta rule and i dont think its gonna pass. So scouts still playable for the most part.
I've played with both and even got in a post-FAQ game in last night. Both are good fighters but are really similar in performance. The Dark Talon edges out because of the Stasis Bomb but that's not worth 25 points of difference. I'm swapping from 2 Dark Talons, 1 Nephilim to two nephilim, 1 dark talon.
I played a post Faq game last night as well.. ran 3 DTs and 1 Neph. I still found the DT to be better in every way. The Hurricanes hitting on 2s and the SB is so good situationally.
Unfortuantly ran against Eldar and took a loss. But i still think the DT is way better.
How are you hitting on 2s? Are you hovering and not moving? I tried that but found out the hard way that hovering Dark Talons can be charged by ground units, if they aren't shot off the board since they don't have Hard To Hit when hovering either.
Heh. I was running against Eldar as well. Fire Dragoons wrecked two my flyers, but not before they alpha'd one of those big wraith walkers off the board. I should have paid the CP to Hover-Advance the Dark Talon. Might have kept it in a good bracket.
DT has Strafing Run. If the target unit doesn't sport the FLY rule, DT has +1 to hit. Hurricane Bolter is a Rapid Fire weapon, so DT's BS 3+ gets a +1 to hit vs infantry (except those with fly), war walkers and the monsters (again, not those with fly).
Vector Strike wrote: DT has Strafing Run. If the target unit doesn't sport the FLY rule, DT has +1 to hit. Hurricane Bolter is a Rapid Fire weapon, so DT's BS 3+ gets a +1 to hit vs infantry (except those with fly), war walkers and the monsters (again, not those with fly).
Not all Eldar armies are Alaitoc FLY-spam stuff
Huh - didn't realize it was RapidFire 6, the output with strength 4 and AP 0 I rarely have to worry about its statline. I was facing Sam-Hain.
The FAQ concerning charges with Fly units made me happy today. Facing a Farsight bomb, I DSed my jet pack Master with TH as well as 3 Inceptors on a building 9" from the target, then passed Righteous Repugnance on him, and sent him on a charge 7" horizontally, rolled 8. By the way I used the 3CP strat to make a character fight again, and that allowed me to maul Farsight to death in one go. I believe I'll always include my jet pack Master, and consider using more jet pack characters in the future. Notably a Librarian or Interrogator-Chaplain for Ld debuffs with other units.
Aaranis wrote: The FAQ concerning charges with Fly units made me happy today. Facing a Farsight bomb, I DSed my jet pack Master with TH as well as 3 Inceptors on a building 9" from the target, then passed Righteous Repugnance on him, and sent him on a charge 7" horizontally, rolled 8.
Both the setup distance and charge move should be measured diagonally, so I don't see how you're getting one to be short than the other
Aaranis wrote: The FAQ concerning charges with Fly units made me happy today. Facing a Farsight bomb, I DSed my jet pack Master with TH as well as 3 Inceptors on a building 9" from the target, then passed Righteous Repugnance on him, and sent him on a charge 7" horizontally, rolled 8.
Both the setup distance and charge move should be measured diagonally, so I don't see how you're getting one to be short than the other
Here's the bit of the FAQ I'm talking about:
Q: When a unit that can Fly declares a charge move against a
unit that is on the upper levels of a ruin, do I need to include
the vertical distance when making the subsequent charge move
for the unit?
A: No. A unit that can Fly effectively ignores vertical
distances when making a charge move. Note though that
the charging unit must still be within 12" (measured
directly ‘base-to-base’, i.e. diagonally) to be able to
declare the charge in the first place.
Interesting. Rereading it I guess your interpretation is probably correct. I figured that ignoring vertical movement meant that you moved the diagonal distance as opposed to making two right-angled movements (eg. 6" horizontally, 3" vertically)
Edit: just read the YMDC thread on this and wow that makes charging ruins on arrival super easy...
What do people think of black knights now that theyre one of the few units that can turn 1 charge? I think a big unit of them (or two) with supporting characters is looking more viable
you don't pay 46 points for their hammers. You generally don't want them in combat, you want them exactly 18" away from your opponent's scariest units. Sure I can imagine using Speed of the Raven into a big screen and then Intractable the next turn, but then they risk getting too far from the Darkshroud.
Anyway I have a max unit of 10 in my competitive list now. We'll see how that goes in May.
i actually use them in c&c a lot and no need to fall back as most targets are dead after the fight phase, I also bring Sammael on corvex with them of course
What do people think of black knights now that theyre one of the few units that can turn 1 charge? I think a big unit of them (or two) with supporting characters is looking more viable
you don't pay 46 points for their hammers. You generally don't want them in combat, you want them exactly 18" away from your opponent's scariest units. Sure I can imagine using Speed of the Raven into a big screen and then Intractable the next turn, but then they risk getting too far from the Darkshroud.
Anyway I have a max unit of 10 in my competitive list now. We'll see how that goes in May.
i actually use them in c&c a lot and no need to fall back as most targets are dead after the fight phase, I also bring Sammael on corvex with them of course
How many out of intrest? And do you bring a Talonmaster +/or RW ancient for good measure?
What do people think of black knights now that theyre one of the few units that can turn 1 charge? I think a big unit of them (or two) with supporting characters is looking more viable
you don't pay 46 points for their hammers. You generally don't want them in combat, you want them exactly 18" away from your opponent's scariest units. Sure I can imagine using Speed of the Raven into a big screen and then Intractable the next turn, but then they risk getting too far from the Darkshroud.
Anyway I have a max unit of 10 in my competitive list now. We'll see how that goes in May.
i actually use them in c&c a lot and no need to fall back as most targets are dead after the fight phase, I also bring Sammael on corvex with them of course
Whats your reasoning behind bringing Corvex and not Saberclaw? Personally I think the extra pts are well worth it. With Black Knights and Hellblasters the plasma should not be necessary.
Aaranis wrote: The FAQ concerning charges with Fly units made me happy today. Facing a Farsight bomb, I DSed my jet pack Master with TH as well as 3 Inceptors on a building 9" from the target, then passed Righteous Repugnance on him, and sent him on a charge 7" horizontally, rolled 8.
Both the setup distance and charge move should be measured diagonally, so I don't see how you're getting one to be short than the other
Hmmm yes I would agree with Brother Payne here. I would have to look at the Deepstrike rule wording again, but surely its intended the 9" is just 9" (so a direct/diagonal 9" not 9" horizontal + vertical)? But maybe another question for a future FAQ.
As for the current FAQ...
"Q: When a unit that can Fly declares a charge move against a
unit that is on the upper levels of a ruin, do I need to include
the vertical distance when making the subsequent charge move
for the unit?
A: No. A unit that can Fly effectively ignores vertical
distances when making a charge move. Note though that
the charging unit must still be within 12" (measured
directly ‘base-to-base’, i.e. diagonally) to be able to
declare the charge in the first place."
This only specifically answers whether you include vertical distance. It would have been better to specify how you would measure the charge distance - whether only including the horizontal distance or a direct/diagonal distance (base to base).
Aaranis wrote: The FAQ concerning charges with Fly units made me happy today. Facing a Farsight bomb, I DSed my jet pack Master with TH as well as 3 Inceptors on a building 9" from the target, then passed Righteous Repugnance on him, and sent him on a charge 7" horizontally, rolled 8.
Both the setup distance and charge move should be measured diagonally, so I don't see how you're getting one to be short than the other
Hmmm yes I would agree with Brother Payne here. I would have to look at the Deepstrike rule wording again, but surely its intended the 9" is just 9" (so a direct/diagonal 9" not 9" horizontal + vertical)? But maybe another question for a future FAQ.
As for the current FAQ...
"Q: When a unit that can Fly declares a charge move against a
unit that is on the upper levels of a ruin, do I need to include
the vertical distance when making the subsequent charge move
for the unit?
A: No. A unit that can Fly effectively ignores vertical
distances when making a charge move. Note though that
the charging unit must still be within 12" (measured
directly ‘base-to-base’, i.e. diagonally) to be able to
declare the charge in the first place."
This only specifically answers whether you include vertical distance. It would have been better to specify how you would measure the charge distance - whether only including the horizontal distance or a direct/diagonal distance (base to base).
Aaranis is correct here. There was an image shared in the YMDC thread from the Know No Fear starter book that clearly displayed an interceptor moving onto a building but only measuring the horizontal movement, so I think it's clear that Fly units now only measure horizontal distance. Which makes charging from / into leveled terrain a bit of a gimmick but it works nonetheless
Brother Payne wrote: Aaranis is correct here. There was an image shared in the YMDC thread from the Know No Fear starter book that clearly displayed an interceptor moving onto a building but only measuring the horizontal movement, so I think it's clear that Fly units now only measure horizontal distance. Which makes charging from / into leveled terrain a bit of a gimmick but it works nonetheless
Edit: typos
Well then fair enough haha! I always thought a simple diagram would work wonders. Wish the BRB included something like this. Thanks for the info
What do people think of black knights now that theyre one of the few units that can turn 1 charge? I think a big unit of them (or two) with supporting characters is looking more viable
you don't pay 46 points for their hammers. You generally don't want them in combat, you want them exactly 18" away from your opponent's scariest units. Sure I can imagine using Speed of the Raven into a big screen and then Intractable the next turn, but then they risk getting too far from the Darkshroud.
Anyway I have a max unit of 10 in my competitive list now. We'll see how that goes in May.
i actually use them in c&c a lot and no need to fall back as most targets are dead after the fight phase, I also bring Sammael on corvex with them of course
Whats your reasoning behind bringing Corvex and not Saberclaw? Personally I think the extra pts are well worth it. With Black Knights and Hellblasters the plasma should not be necessary.
I already use two talonmasters in that list and I do not have more landspeeders in the same configuration. My darkshroud also follows the Knights, no other buffing characters unless a talonmaster is near.
What do people think of black knights now that theyre one of the few units that can turn 1 charge? I think a big unit of them (or two) with supporting characters is looking more viable
you don't pay 46 points for their hammers. You generally don't want them in combat, you want them exactly 18" away from your opponent's scariest units. Sure I can imagine using Speed of the Raven into a big screen and then Intractable the next turn, but then they risk getting too far from the Darkshroud.
Anyway I have a max unit of 10 in my competitive list now. We'll see how that goes in May.
i actually use them in c&c a lot and no need to fall back as most targets are dead after the fight phase, I also bring Sammael on corvex with them of course
How many out of intrest? And do you bring a Talonmaster +/or RW ancient for good measure?
8 Knights including the sergeant with sammael and a darkshroud and maybe a talonmaster when it is near.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is the list I use
TedNugent wrote: I'm not exactly playing anything competitive, but I have noticed that literally everyone making competitive lists is using Scouts.
I've always been opposed to the aesthetics and the idea of Scouts as troops in a mainline list.
I realize that Tacticals are not that exciting, albeit with two considerations - 1 the infiltration nerf and 2 - the number of genuine improvements they have seen since 5th edition.
I lean towards them in terms of fluff and aesthetics - plus, I have a lot of them from Dark Vengeance.
Is there any reason that I should be categorically opposed to running 5 man tactical combi plas/plas, or even 10 man combi/plas/cannon squads?
Perhaps I just have a mental block against Primaris marines in DA since it doesn't really make sense in their tiered knowledge setup. Ironically I view standard greenwing marines as being elite, old guard DA in comparison to Primaris newbie scrublords. Incidentally even though the Primaris Lieutenant Zakariah looks great in his robe, I also find this offensive. What is that clown doing with rank and in robes, when he is wet behind the ears in comparison to my standard bolter pleb in olive drab?
Anyway, what's the deal. I know people are against tacticals, but are they still so atrocious that I am a fool to use them?
I haven't tried it yet, but what about arming the 5 man squad with a Heavy Bolter? They probably won't move much anyway, and they have the possibility of handing out D3 mortal wounds for 1CP.
Dark Talon is now overpriced compared to other flyers... again.
180 points with wargear would put it in a good place. There is no way it is at all comparable to the 210 point Eldar psyker flyers with S10 AP -4 flamers.
So, I picked up a Dark Talon last week on a work trip to Germany (couldn't find one here). Lovingly carried across the Atlantic. Was half-way through painting it when the FAQ dropped...
Ran it anyway in a 1250 list to prep for a tourney next month along with a Ravenwing detachment. Its still better than the Nephilim, but the 40 point increase meant I had to do some surgery on the list I penned at a nice café in Germany. My Ravenwing surprised an Eldar force with their brashness/early damage output but were wiped out. Against Custodes the Ravenwing did much better, using mobility and WfTDA to float annoyingly out of range.
As an aside, I've gained a new appreciation for Ravenwing carried Meltaguns. Since the Black Knights hog WfTDA each turn, the Meltaguns have proved useful. They are also good against targets that frustrate my Plamsa weaponry (things with a -1, damage reduction etc).
On my next business trip maybe I'll pick up some Dark Reapers or Wave Serpents...Maybe that will bring an additional nerf on them!
TangoTwoBravo wrote: So, I picked up a Dark Talon last week on a work trip to Germany (couldn't find one here). Lovingly carried across the Atlantic. Was half-way through painting it when the FAQ dropped...
Ran it anyway in a 1250 list to prep for a tourney next month along with a Ravenwing detachment. Its still better than the Nephilim, but the 40 point increase meant I had to do some surgery on the list I penned at a nice café in Germany. My Ravenwing surprised an Eldar force with their brashness/early damage output but were wiped out. Against Custodes the Ravenwing did much better, using mobility and WfTDA to float annoyingly out of range.
As an aside, I've gained a new appreciation for Ravenwing carried Meltaguns. Since the Black Knights hog WfTDA each turn, the Meltaguns have proved useful. They are also good against targets that frustrate my Plamsa weaponry (things with a -1, damage reduction etc).
On my next business trip maybe I'll pick up some Dark Reapers or Wave Serpents...Maybe that will bring an additional nerf on them!
I'm a big fan of my melta RW. I run the with a HB attack bike to tank wounds (I don't think the MM is worth it when you're constantly moving)
So how would everyone rate 8ed DA compared to the most competitive armies? I'm getting a very 2nd or 3rd tier vibe (which seems to be the usual for DA).
Also, any word on when or if The Lion will be released as a model?
Retrogamer0001 wrote: So how would everyone rate 8ed DA compared to the most competitive armies? I'm getting a very 2nd or 3rd tier vibe (which seems to be the usual for DA).
Also, any word on when or if The Lion will be released as a model?
No word yet on a model of the Lion. Next Primarch is supposed to be loyalist but my guess is that Russ will be it. I've heard rumor after rumor so don't quote me on this.
Hey - I've been a bit out of the loop on Dark Angels / SM's since 8th dropped but I know there's been a lot of negative talked associated with Drop Pods. So what exactly's the negative press with these guys? At 85 points, it doesn't seem too terrible as a delivery mechanism, especially for squads of Devastators and such..
I just noticed our tactical srgs have more flexibility in their weapons selection, notably we can equip a tactical srg with 2 storm bolters or 2 combi weapons. Personally I am loving that idea, a 5 man tactical with the srg having 2 storm bolters puts out 8 shots at 24" or 16 at 12", all for 68 pts. That's crazy effective for the points. I am thinking of running 3 of these "dakka" squads in a land raider crusader because I don't want to put anything expensive in there and if they don't get far they at least get somewhere. Or even putting 2 squads like that in a rhino with 2 storm bolters, that's 74 pts for the rhino and 136 for the men for a ton of firepower. Yeah, they are bolters, but everyone has to fail some wounds at some point.
eternalxfl wrote: Hey - I've been a bit out of the loop on Dark Angels / SM's since 8th dropped but I know there's been a lot of negative talked associated with Drop Pods. So what exactly's the negative press with these guys? At 85 points, it doesn't seem too terrible as a delivery mechanism, especially for squads of Devastators and such..
Drop Pods aren't bad, but before the FAQ they were pretty outdated. A few more points got you a better armed/armor transport. Several units (and a few stratagems) could deepstrike natively, which reduced the desire to pay 85pts for a deepstrike. If Tactical Marines go up in value or Intercessors become more viable in melee we might see them come back. I suppose if they get to DS turn 1, that might make them 'money' again.
Azuza001 wrote: I just noticed our tactical srgs have more flexibility in their weapons selection, notably we can equip a tactical srg with 2 storm bolters or 2 combi weapons. Personally I am loving that idea, a 5 man tactical with the srg having 2 storm bolters puts out 8 shots at 24" or 16 at 12", all for 68 pts. That's crazy effective for the points. I am thinking of running 3 of these "dakka" squads in a land raider crusader because I don't want to put anything expensive in there and if they don't get far they at least get somewhere. Or even putting 2 squads like that in a rhino with 2 storm bolters, that's 74 pts for the rhino and 136 for the men for a ton of firepower. Yeah, they are bolters, but everyone has to fail some wounds at some point.
They can't take 2 Storm Bolters.
SERGEANT EQUIPMENT
Up to two weapons can be chosen from the following list:
-snip-
One weapon can be chosen from the following list:
-snip-
Storm Bolter
They can pick a Storm Bolter only once. If you want a S4 font of dakka, either go Aggressors or Company Veterans with Storm Bolters (the entire squad can take it)
What's you guys thoughts on Repulsors ? I'm thinking about including one in the DA battalion accompanying my AdMech. I'm thinking of filling it with Intercessors (I love these guys so far) but wonder if I can't fit in a useful character or two. The Primaris Master looks nice, I'm thinking about giving him the power sword and plasma pistol loadout, or the power fist to have more punch (literally). Maybe fit in a Lieutenant too, with the power sword and plasma pistol too ?
It would help me reduce the number of drops in my list, while providing a way to travel safely for my Intercessors. I don't know how to equip the Repulsor itself though, I'm thinking about keeping it cheap so as to not put all my eggs in one basket.
Aaranis wrote: What's you guys thoughts on Repulsors ? I'm thinking about including one in the DA battalion accompanying my AdMech. I'm thinking of filling it with Intercessors (I love these guys so far) but wonder if I can't fit in a useful character or two. The Primaris Master looks nice, I'm thinking about giving him the power sword and plasma pistol loadout, or the power fist to have more punch (literally). Maybe fit in a Lieutenant too, with the power sword and plasma pistol too ?
It would help me reduce the number of drops in my list, while providing a way to travel safely for my Intercessors. I don't know how to equip the Repulsor itself though, I'm thinking about keeping it cheap so as to not put all my eggs in one basket.
imo they're not great. Your AdMech can shoot better, and it's a seriously big points sink. That being said if you're running AdMech and Primaris you don't have much of an option in terms of transports. If you do run one I'd consider filing it with something of more value than Intercessors. I'd run scouts to protect your AdMech gun line (alpha strikes are still a thing), and fill the Repulsor with either Hellblasters or Aggressors with a supporting character
Brother Payne wrote: imo they're not great. Your AdMech can shoot better, and it's a seriously big points sink. That being said if you're running AdMech and Primaris you don't have much of an option in terms of transports. If you do run one I'd consider filing it with something of more value than Intercessors. I'd run scouts to protect your AdMech gun line (alpha strikes are still a thing), and fill the Repulsor with either Hellblasters or Aggressors with a supporting character
Ah yes I was thinking about 2x5 Scouts to fill the remaining Troop slots. Why didn't I think about Hellblasters ? I could either run 10 of them inside with my jet pack Master close by, or 9 with a Primaris Master. Good idea thanks. I'll ask a friend to borrow his Repulsor for a game to try it out someday.
I want to use my DA to provide mobility mostly, with already 2x3 Bikes and 3 Inceptors with their jet pack Master. So far they've been good, but the bikes die all the time. Very happy of my Master and his Inceptors. I always include a Librarian as a second HQ to deny enemy Psykers, buff the Master (or the DW Knights when I use them) and just generally annoy the enemy.
If you're already running a JP master then drop off 10 Hellblasters near him and skip the Primaris master
Bikes are handy but they don't work wonders. Hide them from heavy shooting and don't expect to do much in cc except force a tank to fall back. If you want some added durability to each unit you could always add a HB attack bike to soak up wounds
Yeah, I just realized it myself and went to come on here and say I was wrong. You can replace the pistol for a storm bolter and get 3 shots or 6 shots at 12", so it still works ok.
Azuza001 wrote: Yeah, I just realized it myself and went to come on here and say I was wrong. You can replace the pistol for a storm bolter and get 3 shots or 6 shots at 12", so it still works ok.
I don't really think that's correct. From the dataslate, you may replace the bolt pistol and the boltgun with items from the sergeant equipment list.
Per the sergeant equipment list, there are two subsections on page 75.
Up to two may be chosen from the pistols/melee weapons, and up to one may be chosen from the boltgun/combi weapons list.
Ergo you could replace up to one weapon with the storm bolter but still be left with one weapon from the first list (chainsword, bolt pistol, etc). I think this is both RAW and RAI. Now, if the storm bolter had been included in the first list....
TedNugent wrote: Ergo you could replace up to one weapon with the storm bolter but still be left with one weapon from the first list (chainsword, bolt pistol, etc). I think this is both RAW and RAI. Now, if the storm bolter had been included in the first list....
Aaranis wrote: What's you guys thoughts on Repulsors ? I'm thinking about including one in the DA battalion accompanying my AdMech. I'm thinking of filling it with Intercessors (I love these guys so far) but wonder if I can't fit in a useful character or two. The Primaris Master looks nice, I'm thinking about giving him the power sword and plasma pistol loadout, or the power fist to have more punch (literally). Maybe fit in a Lieutenant too, with the power sword and plasma pistol too ?
It would help me reduce the number of drops in my list, while providing a way to travel safely for my Intercessors. I don't know how to equip the Repulsor itself though, I'm thinking about keeping it cheap so as to not put all my eggs in one basket.
I really, really want to use one in a list but they are the land raider problem x2. You can easily run up to nearly 300 points kitting one out only to have it shot off the board turn one. It just does waaay too much at once to ever be getting the full use of it's hefty point cost. If you are using it as a transport, than you aren't getting the full value of the Anti-armor weapons. Maneuver to use those and you aren't getting the full value of the anti-infantry weapons. So on and so forth.
If I could fit my plasma ceptors in one I would be so happy.
I can't think of any way to keep them from being shot off the board turn 1 and dropping from deepstrike leaves my most potent high damage shooting potentially off the board for 2 turns.
I can't think of any way to keep them from being shot off the board turn 1 and dropping from deepstrike leaves my most potent high damage shooting potentially off the board for 2 turns.
Deploying out of LOS hasn't protect against the biggest marine killers in my Meta (guard, super mobile eldar reapers and now DE).
They just have too big of a target. With their bulky backpacks and height it's hard to keep them on the first floor of a ruin (ITC) so they've been shot through second story windows from ground level troops...
If they aren't screened they get 1st turn charged still (depending on deployment if it can move 12 and still charge it can usually get in and no overwatch because I'm cowering out of LOS), but if I screen then they are too far from the one piece of LOS terrain that can protect such tall/bulky models.
It feels like they were designed with deepstrike as a tool to keep them from getting blown off the table. Without that protection I think I may have to go back to storm cannon leviathan dreads (similar damage output but can actually survive a round or two of getting shot)
Hmm I think either way my opponent will be able to eliminate 300 pts of my army first turn in any case. If he prefers shooting the Repulsor than my Onager Dunecrawler or my Robots he's welcome. There's no shortage of juicy targets in my army anyway. There's no scenery big enough in my LGS to hide a Repulsor behind it unfortunately. And in any case I'd prefer it on the first line to be closer to his passengers' targets. I'll try it out someday before choosing if I buy one or not.
bananathug wrote: Deploying out of LOS hasn't protect against the biggest marine killers in my Meta (guard, super mobile eldar reapers and now DE).
They just have too big of a target. With their bulky backpacks and height it's hard to keep them on the first floor of a ruin (ITC) so they've been shot through second story windows from ground level troops...
If they aren't screened they get 1st turn charged still (depending on deployment if it can move 12 and still charge it can usually get in and no overwatch because I'm cowering out of LOS), but if I screen then they are too far from the one piece of LOS terrain that can protect such tall/bulky models.
It feels like they were designed with deepstrike as a tool to keep them from getting blown off the table. Without that protection I think I may have to go back to storm cannon leviathan dreads (similar damage output but can actually survive a round or two of getting shot)
If he can ignore LOS, the only thing I can say is park them within an Azrael bubble turn one, keep them in a darkshroud bubble, or cast Aversion on the unit. Perhaps 2 or all three. Aversion requires you to go first if I understand correctly, so you can get your first psychic phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Like other Dark Angels, players, I'm annoyed with the lack of viability of Deathwing. If nothing else because of the lost potential flavor.
I know it's not great, but I think this is the best I could do in making a Deathwing "flavor list."
I'm just not ready to abandon Deathwing. They're cool as gak.
This would also be an easy list to create as it only requires the Dark Vengeance models plus an Assault Terminator kit.
So I've been doing some thought experimenting on what could be done to make a Deathwing list.
Bearing in mind that in spite of their downsides, Terminators did receive an additional wound, guaranteed deep strike distance, a free attack on the sergeant, and double the shots on storm bolters and assault cannons.
I think any Deathwing list is going to be dependent on one warlord trait in particular. Master of Maneuver provides re-rolls to charge and advance rolls within 6" of the warlord. I think this is vital for ensuring a realistic charge from deep strike with even a single unit on average.
Second, two units are particularly interesting to me in the Deathwing arsenal. Belial now gives full rerolls to hit to all deathwing units. The Deathwing Ancient provides +1 attack.
So in my view a possible Deathwing list would include:
Belial
Deathwing Ancient with Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield - Warlord with Master of Maneuver and Shroud of Heroes or Eye of the Unseen relic
At least 2 Deathwing Terminator squads with 4 PFs, 3 SBs, 1 Asscan, and one TH/SS on the sergeant for the 3 attacks
Watcher in the Dark
Per FAQ, a 9 is required on the 2D6 charge roll when arriving from deep strike to achieve a successful charge on turn 2. Mathematically this is approximately a 27.8% chance on a 2D6, or ~47.8% with a reroll from Master of Maneuver. This gives these 4 units just under an average of 2 units successfully charging on turn 2, or at least 1 unit in most cases.
Additionally, upon arrival they would be able to provide 28 bolter shots and 12 assault cannon shots. 4 bolter shots would be on BS2 with rerolls. 24 bolter shots would be on BS3 with rerolls. The 12 asscan shots would be on BS4 with rerolls.
Each unit would additionally have rerolls in close combat, hitting on 4's, and an additional attack apiece in CC.
So each fist would have 3 attacks, 4 attacks with the TH/SS each with a 75% hit chance.
These 4 units would deal approximately 7 wounds to MEQs on arrival from shooting on turn 2. On average just under 2 of units would complete the charge on turn 2.
Total cost would weigh in at just over 750 points, leaving room for bare batallion fillers.
So, what do you guys think. Would this be viable as a Deathwing component as part of a supporting greenwing force with an additional HQ to fill a batallion, plus 3 naked troops, and fire support units?
The problem I have with the DS Terminators is that you'll have to shoot at something 12" away to benefit from the double shots, and in most cases it will be the unit you want to charge to move up. Most of the time your opponent will just remove models from the front to make your charge impossible, and you'll be standing there open to enemy fire for the rest of the game. Personally I'm keeping my Terminators shooting only for this reason, and will build a DW Knights bomb if I want to engage, with the build you mentioned. Ancient + Belial/Chaplain are the most important, but we could get cheeky and add an Apothecary. Ideally having Ezekiel run around with them to allow them a free attack before dying and cast Righteous Repugnance on them would be nice. If you can fit Asmodai instead of the Belial/Ancient you'll get one more attack for every unit in range, but it's getting costly. The problem being bringing Ezekiel and Asmodai there in the first place. But if you're playing a defensive type of list and DS the bomb close to your line you could manage to bring both characters where they'd need to be to buff the bomb.
Speaking of cost the aforementioned bomb would cost 957 points though. 10 DW Knights (500), 1 DW Apothecary (77), 1 DW Ancient with Lightning Claws (the cheapest, at 115), Ezekiel (135) and Asmodai (130).
The rest of the army would need to be Scouts to protect your landing zone (you'll need a lot of room), Bikes for the mobility and tarpitting, and some form of anti-horde.
I think death wing really only works now when teamed with raven / green marines. They are most effective once a hole has opened in an enemy's line and you want to capitalize on it. But just death wing at this point seems to be for fun games not serious competitive games.
Paying 750 points for 7 MEQ wounds is absurd. DW can't be taken in high enough numbers to guarantee multiple charges off deepstrike, and are too slow to create a proper threat any other way as they can simply be walked away from. In a pure DW list they also now suffer the problem of needing half the lists' PL deployed on the table, which is significant bc DW are expensive.
There are only really two ways I can see DW being run, both of them with DW as token elements of an otherwise non-DW force. The first is a block of 10 kitted out for shooting to act as area denial. Put scout screens out to make sure they have somewhere to land or use an opening in the enemy lines and then use them to lock down that portion of board. The second is DWK with Ezekiel and Asmodai in a Stormraven, with a JP master and plas Inceptors arriving along side them on turn 2.
Edit: alternatively run a Ven Dread / FW Dread gunline but I don't think that's what you meant by Deathwing
Brother Payne wrote: Paying 750 points for 7 MEQ wounds is absurd. DW can't be taken in high enough numbers to guarantee multiple charges off deepstrike, and are too slow to create a proper threat any other way as they can simply be walked away from. In a pure DW list they also now suffer the problem of needing half the lists' PL deployed on the table, which is significant bc DW are expensive.
There are only really two ways I can see DW being run, both of them with DW as token elements of an otherwise non-DW force. The first is a block of 10 kitted out for shooting to act as area denial. Put scout screens out to make sure they have somewhere to land or use an opening in the enemy lines and then use them to lock down that portion of board. The second is DWK with Ezekiel and Asmodai in a Stormraven, with a JP master and plas Inceptors arriving along side them on turn 2.
Edit: alternatively run a Ven Dread / FW Dread gunline but I don't think that's what you meant by Deathwing
I don't think I described it as paying 750 points for 7 MEQ wounds, and the group has an approximately 48% chance per unit for a charge upon arrival with the Master of Maneuver Warlord Trait. So within 4 units, you could expect a good chance of 2 units to charge on arrival.
With rerolls for all close combat attacks, and 3 attacks per power fist, is that really such an atrocious waste of points?
Imo, yeah. There's just too much hinging on enough units getting in and 48% are not odds I'd want to be backing. If either of the characters fail their charge you either lose their buff or have to daisy chain your terminators back to stay within their bubble meaning not everyone gets to fight. Just one of those terminator units not making it in severely diminishes the output this stike is putting out, and I haven't done the math, but I honestly think you'll be underwhelmed by the amount of damage 10 terminators can put out even with all the buffs.
I also think they be pretty easy to screen against, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.
I suggested one unit of 10 because if the charge doesn't go off, it hasn't cost you a whole load of points, and they can act as an area denial. You could combat squad the unit in order to try and make one of the charges, but I'd probably just run it as one because chances are they're getting charged not doing the charging, and one unit wouldn't afford the opponent any concessions on overwatch or being able to charge one unit at a time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Personally though, I'd go the Stormraven route. If you want to guarantee turn 2 charges that's the way to do it. Plus the stormraven's a good unit of its own accord. Yes you're getting less terminators in, but it's heaps more reliable. You could ofc double down on the tactic and run 2 storm ravens with 5 termis each, Asmodai an Ezekiel in one, and a DW ancient in the other. That's a heap of points but equally would be a heap of fun
I wouldn't ever deepstrike DW Knights; the charge is just not reliable enough even with a reroll. The one time I tried it, I failed and my Knights just got kited the whole game and slowly killed. Instead, if I were hellbent on actually running Deathwing, I'd put a unit of 5 Knights in a Land Raider Crusader, along with Asmodai and an Ancient (could add a 6th Knight and/or Ezekiel if you wanted). Problem is, that combo is a huge number of points for not enough return, especially if you go second and the Land Raider gets blown up on your opponent's first turn.
An alternative I've used for DWK is dropping a Librarian in with them. That way, they at least stand a chance of having rerolls every turn. If you have a Ravenwing or other fast component to your army, you can often hem someone in fairly effectively by flanking with the DWK.
The big Deathwing drop (two squads with Belial and Ancient) was working well for me in the Index days, but it got tougher even before the Big FAQ as Codexes came out. Stratagems against units arriving from reserves became more common. It was always a CP hog, and I often had squads left in the open.
I've tried the Stormraven option, but its draws so much fire they tend to die leaving you no further ahead than if you teleported on turn 2. I even rolled three "1s" last week for my Deathwing Knights when the Stormraven crashed. I'm shelving normal Deathwing for a while, but I will keep adding the DW Knights from time to time to see if they can earn a place back in my list. Sometimes they have really shone! Other times, not so much...And they go through CPs like water.
I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.
I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.
I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.
Shrapnelbait wrote: I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.
I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.
I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.
i actually use full chainsword squads of bikers or plasma. With chainswords they are good horde cleaners.
Shrapnelbait wrote: I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.
I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.
I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.
i actually use full chainsword squads of bikers or plasma. With chainswords they are good horde cleaners.
Assuming no modifiers, a flamer unit in the shooting phase will do 3.06 unsaved wounds on MEQ and 8.15 against GEQ. A chainsword unit would do 1.33 MEQ / 3.55 TEQ wounds in the shooting phase followed by 0.78 MEQ / 2.07 GEQ in combat. Flamers over one phase outperform chainswords over two agains both GEQ and MEQ. Even when you account for points, flamer bike are putting out significantly more damage per point.
Personally I like to run a melta squad with a HB attack bike attached to soak up wounds (the MM isn't worth the points when you'll be moving every turn).
Shrapnelbait wrote: I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.
I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.
I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.
i actually use full chainsword squads of bikers or plasma. With chainswords they are good horde cleaners.
Assuming no modifiers, a flamer unit in the shooting phase will do 3.06 unsaved wounds on MEQ and 8.15 against GEQ. A chainsword unit would do 1.33 MEQ / 3.55 TEQ wounds in the shooting phase followed by 0.78 MEQ / 2.07 GEQ in combat. Flamers over one phase outperform chainswords over two agains both GEQ and MEQ. Even when you account for points, flamer bike are putting out significantly more damage per point.
Personally I like to run a melta squad with a HB attack bike attached to soak up wounds (the MM isn't worth the points when you'll be moving every turn).
Do you find yourself regularly advancing to get the Jink 4++ then using the Assault keyword on the meltas?
Shrapnelbait wrote: I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.
I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.
I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.
i actually use full chainsword squads of bikers or plasma. With chainswords they are good horde cleaners.
Assuming no modifiers, a flamer unit in the shooting phase will do 3.06 unsaved wounds on MEQ and 8.15 against GEQ. A chainsword unit would do 1.33 MEQ / 3.55 TEQ wounds in the shooting phase followed by 0.78 MEQ / 2.07 GEQ in combat. Flamers over one phase outperform chainswords over two agains both GEQ and MEQ. Even when you account for points, flamer bike are putting out significantly more damage per point.
Personally I like to run a melta squad with a HB attack bike attached to soak up wounds (the MM isn't worth the points when you'll be moving every turn).
you are right of course but i like to keep my bikers as cheap as possible as i need my points elsewhere.
Shrapnelbait wrote: I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.
I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.
I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.
Ravenwing bike squad sergeants cannot take combi weapons. Per the entry they can only replace their bolt pistol with a CCW or another pistol.
Shrapnelbait wrote: I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.
I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.
I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.
i actually use full chainsword squads of bikers or plasma. With chainswords they are good horde cleaners.
Assuming no modifiers, a flamer unit in the shooting phase will do 3.06 unsaved wounds on MEQ and 8.15 against GEQ. A chainsword unit would do 1.33 MEQ / 3.55 TEQ wounds in the shooting phase followed by 0.78 MEQ / 2.07 GEQ in combat. Flamers over one phase outperform chainswords over two agains both GEQ and MEQ. Even when you account for points, flamer bike are putting out significantly more damage per point.
Personally I like to run a melta squad with a HB attack bike attached to soak up wounds (the MM isn't worth the points when you'll be moving every turn).
Do you find yourself regularly advancing to get the Jink 4++ then using the Assault keyword on the meltas?
Honeslty it depends. If I think they're going to get all their work done in one phase of shooting then I won't bother. If I need them to stick around for multiple turns and can't protect them some other way then yeah, I'll advance for the 4++. If possible I'll even pop speed of the raven to tie something shooty up - they can fall back but at least I'll have shot at full BS and still have the 4++
Shrapnelbait wrote: I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.
I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.
I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.
Ravenwing bike squad sergeants cannot take combi weapons. Per the entry they can only replace their bolt pistol with a CCW or another pistol.
Somehow I totally missed that. Given that I would prefer to use codex rules, what would be your preferred loadout for the Sargent? Pistol seems meh as you would have to be in CC to use it or give up the bolter shots, but hey are not an exceptional HTH unit either.
Shrapnelbait wrote: I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.
I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.
I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.
Ravenwing bike squad sergeants cannot take combi weapons. Per the entry they can only replace their bolt pistol with a CCW or another pistol.
Somehow I totally missed that. Given that I would prefer to use codex rules, what would be your preferred loadout for the Sargent? Pistol seems meh as you would have to be in CC to use it or give up the bolter shots, but hey are not an exceptional HTH unit either.
combi plasma is a good general loadout.
I do have one running a combi melta with a squad of 2 melta bikers. They target a vehical
Shrapnelbait wrote: I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.
I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.
I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.
Ravenwing bike squad sergeants cannot take combi weapons. Per the entry they can only replace their bolt pistol with a CCW or another pistol.
Somehow I totally missed that. Given that I would prefer to use codex rules, what would be your preferred loadout for the Sargent? Pistol seems meh as you would have to be in CC to use it or give up the bolter shots, but hey are not an exceptional HTH unit either.
If you're set on using codex rules then you're probably best just sticking to a chainsword. As you said, they're not a great CC unit so it's not really worth investing in a pistol or melee. I'd strongly recommend going with the index and giving him a combi-weapons though
I've taken a new look at these guys recently as allies for a Custodes Bike force. What are all your opinions on Black Knights and Darkshrouds after the FAQ and all the other changes back to CA?
I think Black Knights make most sense when combined with Sammael, Talonmaster and a big Weapons of the Dark Age buff.
I think what we were just discussing is that you can actually make pretty shooty Ravenwing Biker units instead, with 3 specials and 3 storm bolters. Or you can add an attack bike for another heavy bolter and storm bolter.
Dark Shroud could stack with the Custodes banner unit that gives -1 to hit. Dark Angels Librarians also have a spell called Aversion that subtracts one to hit for shenanigans. If you could combined the -1 to hit from the banner and the Dark Shroud, that would be effective. The -1 to hit warlord trait could also be pretty lulzy. You could theoretically stack the banner, the Dark Shroud, the Warlord Trait, then cast Aversion for a -4 to hit on your Warlord.
TedNugent wrote: I think Black Knights make most sense when combined with Sammael, Talonmaster and a big Weapons of the Dark Age buff.
I think what we were just discussing is that you can actually make pretty shooty Ravenwing Biker units instead, with 3 specials and 3 storm bolters. Or you can add an attack bike for another heavy bolter and storm bolter.
Dark Shroud could stack with the Custodes banner unit that gives -1 to hit. Dark Angels Librarians also have a spell called Aversion that subtracts one to hit for shenanigans. If you could combined the -1 to hit from the banner and the Dark Shroud, that would be effective. The -1 to hit warlord trait could also be pretty lulzy. You could theoretically stack the banner, the Dark Shroud, the Warlord Trait, then cast Aversion for a -4 to hit on your Warlord.
I believe the Darkshroud is for chapter units only and the Custodes one is for Custodes units only. They won't stack.
You could however, use the Darkshroud, Relic, and Aversion for -3 for the warlord against the one unit that the aversion was on, but your opponent probably woudn't be able to target the Warlord anyway since you will have other units on the table. The Darkshroud would be the first to go.
TedNugent wrote: I think Black Knights make most sense when combined with Sammael, Talonmaster and a big Weapons of the Dark Age buff.
I think what we were just discussing is that you can actually make pretty shooty Ravenwing Biker units instead, with 3 specials and 3 storm bolters. Or you can add an attack bike for another heavy bolter and storm bolter.
Dark Shroud could stack with the Custodes banner unit that gives -1 to hit. Dark Angels Librarians also have a spell called Aversion that subtracts one to hit for shenanigans. If you could combined the -1 to hit from the banner and the Dark Shroud, that would be effective. The -1 to hit warlord trait could also be pretty lulzy. You could theoretically stack the banner, the Dark Shroud, the Warlord Trait, then cast Aversion for a -4 to hit on your Warlord.
I believe the Darkshroud is for chapter units only and the Custodes one is for Custodes units only. They won't stack.
You could however, use the Darkshroud, Relic, and Aversion for -3 for the warlord against the one unit that the aversion was on, but your opponent probably woudn't be able to target the Warlord anyway since you will have other units on the table. The Darkshroud would be the first to go.
Unfortunately you're right concerning the Dark Shroud
I don't think it'd be worth it in that case. The dang thing is p. expensive. Unless you were building a max strength Black Knights unit and spamming WotDA on it with Aversion to keep it protected. It'd have to have something to make it worth the points investment.
I use my dark shroud to protect my dev plasma squad, sitting back any hopefully hiding behind cover. It still normally does die first or 2nd turn, but it is a fire magnet so it's expected and if it lives one turn have it "advance" an inch to get a 4++ save. Your not using its gun, keep it a heavy bolter, and keep something expensive alive for as long as you can. But yeah, it's going to die. Accept it. But if you CAN keep it alive until you get your first turn run it next to a flyer that is hard to hit for one seriously nasty drop ship.
Dark shroud + dark talon + ravenwing bike squad + Samuel in sableclaw = an expensive but seriously fast and hard to deal with force. As long as you get first turn to get that jinx off that is.
2 Darkshrouds is the way to go. The first one won't last past turn one and if they're taking both down then they've protected your other units better even than their -1 could have.
Stacking with the shroud is pretty situational given characters are unlikely to be targetable anyway. It could work on a kamikaze Talonmaster, but then you're better of giving him the Heavenfall Blade.
I would've expected as much. I definitely think they're still worth it at 200pts. I only think it'd become truely cost inefficient if you were to properly spam them (which we can't do anymore anyway)
My local GT, the TNT in Nashville, is May 18th - 20th thanks for asking! I swapped out Inceptors for 4 bikes. I've gotten lots of reps in so I'm confident I'll place about as well as a Dark Angel can. Just gotta resist charging in those Black Knights and keep them at skirmish range, a mistake I often make.
zedsdead wrote: btw.. did you run your list at that GT yet ? interested to see how you did.
-ed
My local GT, the TNT in Nashville, is May 18th - 20th thanks for asking! I swapped out Inceptors for 4 bikes. I've gotten lots of reps in so I'm confident I'll place about as well as a Dark Angel can. Just gotta resist charging in those Black Knights and keep them at skirmish range, a mistake I often make.
Did you have a specific reason for the switch? I haven't found RWBK to be worth it with less than 6 in the unit
zedsdead wrote: btw.. did you run your list at that GT yet ? interested to see how you did.
-ed
My local GT, the TNT in Nashville, is May 18th - 20th thanks for asking! I swapped out Inceptors for 4 bikes. I've gotten lots of reps in so I'm confident I'll place about as well as a Dark Angel can. Just gotta resist charging in those Black Knights and keep them at skirmish range, a mistake I often make.
Did you have a specific reason for the switch? I haven't found RWBK to be worth it with less than 6 in the unit
the first turn deep strike beta rule. The new bikes are not black Knights, but will screen for the black Knights.
zedsdead wrote: btw.. did you run your list at that GT yet ? interested to see how you did.
-ed
My local GT, the TNT in Nashville, is May 18th - 20th thanks for asking! I swapped out Inceptors for 4 bikes. I've gotten lots of reps in so I'm confident I'll place about as well as a Dark Angel can. Just gotta resist charging in those Black Knights and keep them at skirmish range, a mistake I often make.
Did you have a specific reason for the switch? I haven't found RWBK to be worth it with less than 6 in the unit
the first turn deep strike beta rule. The new bikes are not black Knights, but will screen for the black Knights.
Oh gotcha. Have you play tested the Inceptors with the beta rules? Idk about you but I rarely find myself dropping mine in T1 anyway
zedsdead wrote: btw.. did you run your list at that GT yet ? interested to see how you did.
-ed
My local GT, the TNT in Nashville, is May 18th - 20th thanks for asking! I swapped out Inceptors for 4 bikes. I've gotten lots of reps in so I'm confident I'll place about as well as a Dark Angel can. Just gotta resist charging in those Black Knights and keep them at skirmish range, a mistake I often make.
Did you have a specific reason for the switch? I haven't found RWBK to be worth it with less than 6 in the unit
the first turn deep strike beta rule. The new bikes are not black Knights, but will screen for the black Knights.
Oh gotcha. Have you play tested the Inceptors with the beta rules? Idk about you but I rarely find myself dropping mine in T1 anyway
I have an I've been dropping them turn 1 too. Even with Dawn or War for deployment, it's a big ol' 3/4 of the board those 18" guns can cover. The only scenario I can't cover it the really big parking lot shooters like the Baneblades or artillery parks.
My local GT, the TNT in Nashville, is May 18th - 20th thanks for asking! I swapped out Inceptors for 4 bikes. I've gotten lots of reps in so I'm confident I'll place about as well as a Dark Angel can. Just gotta resist charging in those Black Knights and keep them at skirmish range, a mistake I often make.
Its so true about the BKs .. to often i want to charge them into combat and regret doing it.
Ive been switching back and forth between the BKs and a Supreme Command Det of 3 Shield Capts. I also ran 2 squads of 5 each Agressor squads with a full 10 hellblaster and Azzy and Ancient the other night. Sheesh the firepower coming from 10 Agressors is amazing.
I don't know that charging with Black Knights is always such a bad idea unless you are charging into something like a large blob or a dedicated assault unit (like Berzerkers). Run them up the board with Speed of the Raven, supercharge your plasma into a tough target like a vehicle, then charge some small weak unit (like Guardsmen or Fire Warriors, provided they aren't T'au sept with all kinds of buddies nearby...). If you wipe the unit you charged, great. If not, your opponent will have to either fall back to allow his other units to shoot your Knights, or he will stay in which case you'll get a second round of swings to hopefully polish them off. With good positioning and some luck, you could even wrap the survivors so they can't fall back in their turn. If you are somehow still locked in combat at the beginning of your next turn, just fall back and use the Intractable stratagem to allow your guys to still get their shots in.
Okay, I realize this may not be viable that much in practice, but to me you are wasting the power of the Corvus hammers if you absolutely never charge with Black Knights.
I've given up on my black knights, unless you pour loads of points into supporting them with an ancient, Sammael, Talonmaster, Darkshroud, and maybe even apothecary, I've been find that they just don't pull their weight. I could see a list being build around two big blobs of 10 with all the support they need, but I can rely much more heavily on my semi-mobile Az gunline.
Aggressors and Hellblasters pull their weight every damn time. I currently run just 3 aggressors, and could see myself going for a second unit of 3, but I don't think I'd go any more than that. I'm thinking of adding scout bikes for a more mobile element to the force
Brother Payne wrote: I've given up on my black knights, unless you pour loads of points into supporting them with an ancient, Sammael, Talonmaster, Darkshroud, and maybe even apothecary, I've been find that they just don't pull their weight. I could see a list being build around two big blobs of 10 with all the support they need, but I can rely much more heavily on my semi-mobile Az gunline.
Aggressors and Hellblasters pull their weight every damn time. I currently run just 3 aggressors, and could see myself going for a second unit of 3, but I don't think I'd go any more than that. I'm thinking of adding scout bikes for a more mobile element to the force
my man what if i told you you can do both, and most of what supports the bikes also supports the primaris dudes.
Brother Payne wrote: I've given up on my black knights, unless you pour loads of points into supporting them with an ancient, Sammael, Talonmaster, Darkshroud, and maybe even apothecary, I've been find that they just don't pull their weight. I could see a list being build around two big blobs of 10 with all the support they need, but I can rely much more heavily on my semi-mobile Az gunline.
Aggressors and Hellblasters pull their weight every damn time. I currently run just 3 aggressors, and could see myself going for a second unit of 3, but I don't think I'd go any more than that. I'm thinking of adding scout bikes for a more mobile element to the force
my man what if i told you you can do both, and most of what supports the bikes also supports the primaris dudes.
Bolter Aggressor squad : 5 guys
Bolter Aggressor squad : 5 guys
Company Ancient
Darkshroud
10 Hellblasters
Astra Milit: Cadian Battalion
Commander: Kurov's Aquila
Commander
3 Infantry squads
Supreme Command: Custodes
3 Shield Capts
The Aggressors/Hellblasters/Azzy/Lt/Dark Shroud and Ancient all Advanced up one side of the board to get into range.
This was a pretty nasty bubble. Turn 1 i was able to remove 50 infantry from the board. In turn 1 i forgot to use the strat that allowed me to advance and shoot my Hellblasters.
The rest of the game Infantry held enough objectives to either tie or hold more in ITC missions. Shield capts would help with that but also move up with the bubble and serve as counter assaulters against the bubble.
In the end i had 2 Hellblasters left and 1 squad of Aggressors with 4 guys. Lost the LT and 2 Shield capts , 2 squads of scouts and 1 AM infantry.
I pretty much had the remainder of the board with him being held in the corner of his deployment with his Basilisks 2, Wyverns 2, tank commander and pask the only things still alive.
The list does sort of struggle with long range Shooting Tanks.. and a good portion of this list was tough for me to deal with. In turn 3/4 i was able to engage a few tanks to get them to stop shooting. Bassys and Waverns did hurt my out of site troops holding objectives. But i was able to hold them.
I have had a ton of success with space wolves and dark angels mixed. Wolves I take a wolf Lord on thunderwolf, wolf guard battle leader on thunderwolf, 3x 5 bloodclaw squads, Lucas the trickster, and a stormwolf. I use the wolf and lion stratagem to give Lucas a major boost in cc abilities and a da lib loves the bonus to leadership, especially with some of our more "useful" powers.
My issue is the dark angels side of the list dies quickly. It's always targeted first (it's expected, I mean 4 plasma cannons in a dev squad from the dark angels is going to get targeted. ) but they continue to do their jobs of being such a huge threat my opponent ignores the wolves first turn (such a big mistake) and once those bloodclaws hit turn 2 it gets ugly.
Anyone have experience with a Stormraven? I want something like the stormwolf for my da's but it doesn't seem as survivable since it doesn't get hard to hit. Plus the idea of dropping a dreadnaught into my opponents lines makes me happy
Stormraven does get hard to hit. Bobby G lists used to rock them hard before the Fire Raptor came down in points (and the SR went up). I really want to get a Stormraven for my own Dark Angels, especially now that Dark Talons skyrocketed in price.
This was a pretty nasty bubble. Turn 1 i was able to remove 50 infantry from the board. In turn 1 i forgot to use the strat that allowed me to advance and shoot my Hellblasters.
The rest of the game Infantry held enough objectives to either tie or hold more in ITC missions. Shield capts would help with that but also move up with the bubble and serve as counter assaulters against the bubble.
In the end i had 2 Hellblasters left and 1 squad of Aggressors with 4 guys. Lost the LT and 2 Shield capts , 2 squads of scouts and 1 AM infantry.
I pretty much had the remainder of the board with him being held in the corner of his deployment with his Basilisks 2, Wyverns 2, tank commander and pask the only things still alive.
The list does sort of struggle with long range Shooting Tanks.. and a good portion of this list was tough for me to deal with. In turn 3/4 i was able to engage a few tanks to get them to stop shooting. Bassys and Waverns did hurt my out of site troops holding objectives. But i was able to hold them.
What stratagem allows you to advance and fire Hellblasters? I'm not tracking one - the Ravenwing can use Speed of the Raven, but Hellblasters can't use that strat.
This was a pretty nasty bubble. Turn 1 i was able to remove 50 infantry from the board. In turn 1 i forgot to use the strat that allowed me to advance and shoot my Hellblasters.
The rest of the game Infantry held enough objectives to either tie or hold more in ITC missions. Shield capts would help with that but also move up with the bubble and serve as counter assaulters against the bubble.
In the end i had 2 Hellblasters left and 1 squad of Aggressors with 4 guys. Lost the LT and 2 Shield capts , 2 squads of scouts and 1 AM infantry.
I pretty much had the remainder of the board with him being held in the corner of his deployment with his Basilisks 2, Wyverns 2, tank commander and pask the only things still alive.
The list does sort of struggle with long range Shooting Tanks.. and a good portion of this list was tough for me to deal with. In turn 3/4 i was able to engage a few tanks to get them to stop shooting. Bassys and Waverns did hurt my out of site troops holding objectives. But i was able to hold them.
What stratagem allows you to advance and fire Hellblasters? I'm not tracking one - the Ravenwing can use Speed of the Raven, but Hellblasters can't use that strat.
Your correct i wrote that wrong... i realized after i advanced with the Hellblasters i couldnt use the strat and shoot making them unable to shoot the first turn.
Which brings up a point.... would i have been better off running a big squad of BKs instead of hellblasters ?
I still like running the HBs because they have a better plasma gun.. but the BKs are more mobile.
Actually i forgot the Assault version of the Plasma gun the HBs have. I wonder if this would be the better way to run them. This blob seems to want to "run and gun" alot more.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Payne wrote: Nice report, thanks for the insights. I think jetbike SCs are a great way to add mobility and punch to most imperium armies.
How come the JP on the LT?
Yea.. i agree. if going pure i would run sammy and a TM instead but the SCs are far better in a competitive game.
The JP on the Lt has been great. He sticks around with the blob for most of the game and later he usually will jump out and take on small squads with the Heavenfall blade. Its performed very well in my games.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZergSmasher wrote: Stormraven does get hard to hit. Bobby G lists used to rock them hard before the Fire Raptor came down in points (and the SR went up). I really want to get a Stormraven for my own Dark Angels, especially now that Dark Talons skyrocketed in price.
Still at 200 pts the DT is still great. I would still take 2 of them over the Stormraven. Not only that DTs can take advantage of strats.
I would only consider a SR if i wanted to transport a Chaplain Dread onto the field. Combine that with a Leviathan dread Deapstriking onto the field at the same time for a nasty suprise.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: I have had a ton of success with space wolves and dark angels mixed. Wolves I take a wolf Lord on thunderwolf, wolf guard battle leader on thunderwolf, 3x 5 bloodclaw squads, Lucas the trickster, and a stormwolf. I use the wolf and lion stratagem to give Lucas a major boost in cc abilities and a da lib loves the bonus to leadership, especially with some of our more "useful" powers.
My issue is the dark angels side of the list dies quickly. It's always targeted first (it's expected, I mean 4 plasma cannons in a dev squad from the dark angels is going to get targeted. ) but they continue to do their jobs of being such a huge threat my opponent ignores the wolves first turn (such a big mistake) and once those bloodclaws hit turn 2 it gets ugly.
Anyone have experience with a Stormraven? I want something like the stormwolf for my da's but it doesn't seem as survivable since it doesn't get hard to hit. Plus the idea of dropping a dreadnaught into my opponents lines makes me happy
Yea it gets hard to hit... plus the darkshroud makes it even harder to hit. Drop in a Chaplain Dread.
Yeah, that's what I get for quick referencing battlescribe instead of looking at my book. :p.
I am not a fan of the chaplain dread only because I don't want to spend the $$$ on models I can't take at a local tournament and which I need another book to run, 2 is bad enough thanks to gw trying to keep some relevance to the indexes. Having said that, ironclad dreadnaughts are awesome and need a ride to the front lines...
I just wish we could put masters on bikes...... So lame.
Azuza001 wrote: Yeah, that's what I get for quick referencing battlescribe instead of looking at my book. :p.
I am not a fan of the chaplain dread only because I don't want to spend the $$$ on models I can't take at a local tournament and which I need another book to run, 2 is bad enough thanks to gw trying to keep some relevance to the indexes. Having said that, ironclad dreadnaughts are awesome and need a ride to the front lines...
I just wish we could put masters on bikes...... So lame.
DA cannot use Ironclad dreads and yes I wish we had a master on a bike, then again talonmasters are really good.
Azuza001 wrote: Yeah, that's what I get for quick referencing battlescribe instead of looking at my book. :p.
I am not a fan of the chaplain dread only because I don't want to spend the $$$ on models I can't take at a local tournament and which I need another book to run, 2 is bad enough thanks to gw trying to keep some relevance to the indexes. Having said that, ironclad dreadnaughts are awesome and need a ride to the front lines...
I just wish we could put masters on bikes...... So lame.
DA cannot use Ironclad dreads and yes I wish we had a master on a bike, then again talonmasters are really good.
Ironclads wouldn't really benefit from being DA anyway so you could always ally it in with a raven. You could do the same with a bike captain but that likely defeats the purpose of him - unless he's there to buff the dread, then go for it, tho you'd probably be better w a JP captain inside the raven instead
So, do storm ravens have any place in competetive DA lists, or is it better to run dark talons?
To me storm raven seems pretty expensive
Ive been to a tourney recently with my azrael hellblaster gunline, but it struggled gainst mass hordes like astra militarum so i'm wondering whats the best unit to deal with such enemies
Timur wrote: Ive been to a tourney recently with my azrael hellblaster gunline, but it struggled gainst mass hordes like astra militarum so i'm wondering whats the best unit to deal with such enemies
For good rate-of-fire, the old reliable Twin Assault Cannon Razorback is still decent value, just not as much of an auto-take as it used to be. Other possible units to consider for this role would be Land Raider Crusaders (bit expensive for what you get though), Repulsors (same story), Dark Talons, Stormravens with Hurricane Bolters (also expensive) or even a full squad of Assault Bolter Inceptors. Even Heavy Bolter Devastators can be good, and they can even use the Hellfire Shells stratagem to throw out a few mortal wounds.
Another solution would be to ally in a couple of Astra Militarum Vultures, with their double Punisher cannons.
Is it worth modifying for a Librarian on Bike, or would you just go with a jump pack? For almost the same points, The bike has 5T and the dual bolters. With the FAQ there is no point in using the jump packs deep strike capability.
Timur wrote: So, do storm ravens have any place in competetive DA lists, or is it better to run dark talons?
To me storm raven seems pretty expensive
Ive been to a tourney recently with my azrael hellblaster gunline, but it struggled gainst mass hordes like astra militarum so i'm wondering whats the best unit to deal with such enemies
My brother's DA had some success in fielding aggressors with Azrael.
Ive been to a tourney recently with my azrael hellblaster gunline, but it struggled gainst mass hordes like astra militarum so i'm wondering whats the best unit to deal with such enemies
Dark Talon for me - ideally fly over the front line who you bomb, then 24 bolters hitting on 2's does work. Get sneaky and use SotR on it.
The speeder characters do well at horde clearing too
Brother Payne wrote: If you've got aggressors in your Azrael bubble and a couple of dark talons, you should be alright. Scout bikes are great value too
This...
I run 2 squads of 5 Aggressors and when i run pure DA (leaving my Shield capts home) i add 2 Dark Talons.
Shrapnelbait wrote: Is it worth modifying for a Librarian on Bike, or would you just go with a jump pack? For almost the same points, The bike has 5T and the dual bolters. With the FAQ there is no point in using the jump packs deep strike capability.
I really like to use a librarian on a bike, he can be a force by himself often
Hey,
I'm building a more or less competitive DA force and I'm into wysiwyg. What do you think is there a place for several (3 units) of RW bike squads with 2 plasma and a storm bolter on the sergeant or is just two squads with triple plasma so much better always? I have only two combi-plasma bitz, but several bikes so I started thinking what if.. I will br spending my CP's of WotDA on my hellblasters accompanied with Azrael, lieutenant and ancient anyways..
Xirax wrote: Hey,
I'm building a more or less competitive DA force and I'm into wysiwyg. What do you think is there a place for several (3 units) of RW bike squads with 2 plasma and a storm bolter on the sergeant or is just two squads with triple plasma so much better always? I have only two combi-plasma bitz, but several bikes so I started thinking what if.. I will br spending my CP's of WotDA on my hellblasters accompanied with Azrael, lieutenant and ancient anyways..
Ravenwing Bike Squadron Sergeants from the Codex cannot take Storm Bolters or combi weapons. He can take Pistols or Melee weapons.
Xirax wrote: Hey,
I'm building a more or less competitive DA force and I'm into wysiwyg. What do you think is there a place for several (3 units) of RW bike squads with 2 plasma and a storm bolter on the sergeant or is just two squads with triple plasma so much better always? I have only two combi-plasma bitz, but several bikes so I started thinking what if.. I will br spending my CP's of WotDA on my hellblasters accompanied with Azrael, lieutenant and ancient anyways..
Ravenwing Bike Squadron Sergeants from the Codex cannot take Storm Bolters or combi weapons. He can take Pistols or Melee weapons.
But the index wargear allows you to so its fine.
I think 2 plas and storm bolter would be fine. A combi plas would probably be optimal, but I wouldn't worry about it too much. Just make sure they've all got chainswords and not bolt pistols
I use the Index for my Librarian on a Bike...because I used bolt cutters on my Codicier from 1997. Beyond that, if you are into Wysiwyg then why not be into the Codex?
Thanks guys, I had totally missed that one out.. Battlescribe screwing.. like with the twin autocannon option on venerable dread..
This is more of a modeling issue, but how you guys have been modeling the chainswords on your bikers? Especially those with let's say plasma gun. I don't like the idea to model my drivers "no hands, no hands!" style, so just glue a chainsword or plasma gun on the the bike or do you know if they let you just say in tourney's that these all are equipped with chainswords? Atleast you can do that with bolt pistols, but chainswords feel a bit different.
After your thoughts, I'm doing my bikes as:
6x plasma gun, chainsword
7x chainsword (3x sergeants, 4x marines)
Attack bike with heavy bolter
Xirax wrote: Thanks guys, I had totally missed that one out.. Battlescribe screwing.. like with the twin autocannon option on venerable dread..
This is more of a modeling issue, but how you guys have been modeling the chainswords on your bikers? Especially those with let's say plasma gun. I don't like the idea to model my drivers "no hands, no hands!" style, so just glue a chainsword or plasma gun on the the bike or do you know if they let you just say in tourney's that these all are equipped with chainswords? Atleast you can do that with bolt pistols, but chainswords feel a bit different.
After your thoughts, I'm doing my bikes as:
6x plasma gun, chainsword
7x chainsword (3x sergeants, 4x marines)
Attack bike with heavy bolter
I plan on magnetizing the guns (plasma, melta, flamer) from the Veterans pack (I think), the ones that don't have hands, to the bikes. That way I can swap loadouts if I want. Then I'm going to put Chainswords in the left hand.
Anyone with exprience running the Assault version of the Hellblaster Guns ? Im going to try it out with a bunch of Aggressors. Interested to see anyones opinion on them having given them a try ? Ill give feedback when i get in a game.
zedsdead wrote: Anyone with exprience running the Assault version of the Hellblaster Guns ? Im going to try it out with a bunch of Aggressors. Interested to see anyones opinion on them having given them a try ? Ill give feedback when i get in a game.
zedsdead wrote: Anyone with exprience running the Assault version of the Hellblaster Guns ? Im going to try it out with a bunch of Aggressors. Interested to see anyones opinion on them having given them a try ? Ill give feedback when i get in a game.
I have used them yesterday and they performed quite well, I let them walk up behind a leviathan dread with Azrael and a lieutenant. I might change the lieutenant to a tech marine though.
Xirax wrote: Thanks guys, I had totally missed that one out.. Battlescribe screwing.. like with the twin autocannon option on venerable dread..
This is more of a modeling issue, but how you guys have been modeling the chainswords on your bikers? Especially those with let's say plasma gun. I don't like the idea to model my drivers "no hands, no hands!" style, so just glue a chainsword or plasma gun on the the bike or do you know if they let you just say in tourney's that these all are equipped with chainswords? Atleast you can do that with bolt pistols, but chainswords feel a bit different.
After your thoughts, I'm doing my bikes as:
6x plasma gun, chainsword
7x chainsword (3x sergeants, 4x marines)
Attack bike with heavy bolter
I plan on magnetizing the guns (plasma, melta, flamer) from the Veterans pack (I think), the ones that don't have hands, to the bikes. That way I can swap loadouts if I want. Then I'm going to put Chainswords in the left hand.
Is it worth putting a power axe on the Sargent?
I bought a bunch of the chainswords off ebay from the Mk3 (I think?) tactical box that don't have hands or arms on to stick to the bikes. And no I don't think it's work a power weapon (of any kind) on the sarge. The chainswords are only there because they're better than bolt pistols, not because the bikes should be looking to be in combat
axisofentropy wrote:
zedsdead wrote: Anyone with exprience running the Assault version of the Hellblaster Guns ? Im going to try it out with a bunch of Aggressors. Interested to see anyones opinion on them having given them a try ? Ill give feedback when i get in a game.
They'd be alright if they weren't more expensive.
Yeah it's the price that turns me off them. The two shots at full range is nice, but the price and lower strength don't make it worth it imo. I run standard incinerators alongside aggressors and they pretty much always rapid fire after T1 ayway. I find the ability to overcharge for S8 invaluable against both T7 and 8 stuff
I had some success with a 3 man squad of bikers with flamers yesterday. Playing against space wolves,and out of courtesy that he didn't have a codex, I didn't use strategems or psychics that weren't in the index. I took them up the side of the board and into his Intercessors, which was the least melee capable unit he had. After dealing 3 wounds, they charged into melee. He was forced to bring his 5 man unit of skyclaws over to help out, but all three squads basically bounced hits off each other for the rest of the game.
Take away:
1) my one squad tied up two squads for the entire game, so not as good as a kill, but I think that makes their points back in a game with objectives.
2) I could definitely see the squad doing well against T3 low save infantry like cultists, IG, etc. Having the speed to get into flamer/rapid fire range from across the board was really useful.
3) Melee wasn't that bad of a place to be as long as you pick your targets. T5 3+ defense vs basic HTH attacks really held out.
4) Going to equip the Sargent with a power axe, I was really wishing for something that would punch through the MEQ instead of bouncing everything.
Paul Dennett got 7th place with Dark Angels in Games Workshop's Grand Tournament final at WarhammerFest. Anyone know where to find his army roster?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Got an answer in the tournament thread
Scarecrow20 wrote: I played the dark angels guy. He was spot on player
From memory he had....
He had 3 dark talons... flyers
3 squads of scouts
Belile (excuse spelling)
Loads if bikes with plasma. Think 2 x 3 and 1 x 6
Tank to give - 1 hut bubble
Dude on a landspeeder with sword twin assault n heavy bolter
Landspeeder with twin assault and heavy bolter
axisofentropy wrote: Paul Dennett got 7th place with Dark Angels in Games Workshop's Grand Tournament final at WarhammerFest. Anyone know where to find his army roster?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Got an answer in the tournament thread
Scarecrow20 wrote: I played the dark angels guy. He was spot on player
From memory he had....
He had 3 dark talons... flyers
3 squads of scouts
Belile (excuse spelling)
Loads if bikes with plasma. Think 2 x 3 and 1 x 6
Tank to give - 1 hut bubble
Dude on a landspeeder with sword twin assault n heavy bolter
Landspeeder with twin assault and heavy bolter
Looks like a decent reasonable non-spam list, I'm happily surprised.
axisofentropy wrote: Paul Dennett got 7th place with Dark Angels in Games Workshop's Grand Tournament final at WarhammerFest. Anyone know where to find his army roster?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Got an answer in the tournament thread
Scarecrow20 wrote: I played the dark angels guy. He was spot on player
From memory he had....
He had 3 dark talons... flyers
3 squads of scouts
Belile (excuse spelling)
Loads if bikes with plasma. Think 2 x 3 and 1 x 6
Tank to give - 1 hut bubble
Dude on a landspeeder with sword twin assault n heavy bolter
Landspeeder with twin assault and heavy bolter
Somehow I'm failing to see how Belial fits into that list at all.
Sneggy wrote: To clarify on paul dennetts dark angels army list:
Sammael on speeder
2 talonmaster one has heavenfall blade
1x8 black knights
2x3 bikes one unit is flamer, other is grav
3x5 scouts
3 dark talons
1 darkshroud.
That makes much more sense. I like that list, but I'm not sure it would do that well in my hopped-up ITC meta. I'm curious on the choice of grav guns too; the one time I tried them way back at the beginning of 8th edition, they just didn't perform. If they were Assault 2 instead of Rapid Fire, they'd be okay. As it stands, I'd much much rather have plasma.
I am working on a mobile type of list besides my Azrael Hellblaster gunline list, and this does give me a good starting point. I'll probably have a unit of Plasma Inceptors in mine, though.
Sneggy wrote: To clarify on paul dennetts dark angels army list:
Sammael on speeder
2 talonmaster one has heavenfall blade
1x8 black knights
2x3 bikes one unit is flamer, other is grav
3x5 scouts
3 dark talons
1 darkshroud.
Interesting choice on the Grav bikes. Not sure i would run them like that. Is this list pre FAQ ? because i dont think this is a 2000 point list.
Looks to be over by about 60 points (could be more depending on Scout loadouts), so maybe pre-FAQ. Easy enough to adjust and keep the theme.
I'm getting ready for a 1,250 Great Crusade tourney. We have to have a named character and the list should represent his retinue. No super-heavies and only two Detachments. Since I've taken Azrael to the last two tourneys I am thinking:
Sammael on Corvex
Talonmaster
Ravenwing Black Knights x 6
Darkshroud
Tactical Squad with Lascannon
Scouts with Sniper Rifles/Cloaks
Scouts with Heavy Bolter
Dark Talon
I could sub-in Sammael on Sableclaw and go with less heavy weapons/snipers in the Troops. The Corvex model looks cooler though...
I have plenty of Ravenwing bikes and Ravenwing Elites (Champion, Apothecary etc) that could go in place of the Dark Talon, but it looks so nice and it draws attention.
Thinking about building a better one when I'll have more kits though, I'm working with scrap.
That said I think a 20 pts increase would have been justified even with the 0-3 change. 40 pts seems a little much. Seems like Leman russ squadrons will be the new black now...
