ZergSmasher wrote: That makes much more sense. I like that list, but I'm not sure it would do that well in my hopped-up ITC meta. I'm curious on the choice of grav guns too; the one time I tried them way back at the beginning of 8th edition, they just didn't perform. If they were Assault 2 instead of Rapid Fire, they'd be okay. As it stands, I'd much much rather have plasma.
I am working on a mobile type of list besides my Azrael Hellblaster gunline list, and this does give me a good starting point. I'll probably have a unit of Plasma Inceptors in mine, though.
curious why you might say this army would have a hard time in the ITC Meta ? I run a similar list and i find it performs very well vs the ITC meta as far as a pure Dark Angels army goes. I would say taking Custode Bike Capts might ratchet this list up a bit in lew of the Talon Masters.. However i have never run 2 Talon Masters and Sammy so it would be interesting to try that route.
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TangoTwoBravo wrote: Looks to be over by about 60 points (could be more depending on Scout loadouts), so maybe pre-FAQ. Easy enough to adjust and keep the theme.
I'm getting ready for a 1,250 Great Crusade tourney. We have to have a named character and the list should represent his retinue. No super-heavies and only two Detachments. Since I've taken Azrael to the last two tourneys I am thinking:
Sammael on Corvex
Talonmaster
Ravenwing Black Knights x 6
Darkshroud
Tactical Squad with Lascannon
Scouts with Sniper Rifles/Cloaks
Scouts with Heavy Bolter
Dark Talon
I could sub-in Sammael on Sableclaw and go with less heavy weapons/snipers in the Troops. The Corvex model looks cooler though...
I have plenty of Ravenwing bikes and Ravenwing Elites (Champion, Apothecary etc) that could go in place of the Dark Talon, but it looks so nice and it draws attention.
Thoughts from my brother Masters?
I have yet to run Sammy on Corvex... anyone else do it ? Interested to see some results over him in the speeder.
Not a fan of the Tac squad .. i would go with a bare bones squad. not sure if any of the scout squads should be more than bare bones. If you go that route you might have the points to add in a single 3 man squad of regular bikes.
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TangoTwoBravo wrote: Looks to be over by about 60 points (could be more depending on Scout loadouts), so maybe pre-FAQ. Easy enough to adjust and keep the theme.
yea.. looks like you can drop 1 RW Knight and the gravs off of the bike squad and you have the list. still very effective
ZergSmasher wrote: That makes much more sense. I like that list, but I'm not sure it would do that well in my hopped-up ITC meta. I'm curious on the choice of grav guns too; the one time I tried them way back at the beginning of 8th edition, they just didn't perform. If they were Assault 2 instead of Rapid Fire, they'd be okay. As it stands, I'd much much rather have plasma.
I am working on a mobile type of list besides my Azrael Hellblaster gunline list, and this does give me a good starting point. I'll probably have a unit of Plasma Inceptors in mine, though.
curious why you might say this army would have a hard time in the ITC Meta ? I run a similar list and i find it performs very well vs the ITC meta as far as a pure Dark Angels army goes. I would say taking Custode Bike Capts might ratchet this list up a bit in lew of the Talon Masters.. However i have never run 2 Talon Masters and Sammy so it would be interesting to try that route.
I think I read the list wrong. It's actually pretty decent. Black Knights seem kinda meh for their points, but they aren't absolutely godawful or anything. The list should absolutely murder hordes like Guard or Orks, but a heavily mechanized army could be a problem since there's relatively little heavy firepower in there (Rift Cannons, possibly Black Knights' plasma). I'll definitely give this some thought, as it's nice to see a Dark Angels list that doesn't use Azrael and Hellblasters.
That's interesting. I never really considered Aggressors much, or a Deredeo. Maybe I'll have to rethink this. Also, it's yet another successful DA list with 3 Dark Talons. I guess they are still pretty good even at their new price point.
I'm nor certain how seriously I would consider the Equilibrium store meta for the greater tournament scene. Especially when the three closest gaming stores (Black Diamond, Games/Antioch, Outflank Games) had tournaments on the same day.
I'm curious what their tactics were used with the DA flyers. Those things are hard to keep alive.
axisofentropy wrote: Aggressors with Azrael are bonkers good, probably best in faction.
I noticed the plasma Deredeo on this thread's first page but I didn't think it was all that great. Maybe Azrael makes it great?
I've been creating an excel file comparing the anti-tank (and later the anti-infantry) options we have access to. For now I've done Deimos Predator, Relic Contemptor, Deredeo, Sicarans (all s7+ variants) and the Tarantula Sentry Gun.
Assuming optimal distance, still dreadnoughts, overcharging plasma and WotDA stratagem, the Hellfire Cannonade Deredeo is simply better than all of the others against T7 3+ (a bit less than 20 points per damage inflicted). The closest, inside the same list, is the Relic Contemptor with 2 Heavy Plasma Cannon and a Cyclone Missile Launcher - but even then it's almost 10 points per damage worse.
The plasma Deredeo is the best option (again, among that list) against T5 4+/5++ (Dark Eldar), but only 4 points per damage more than a Relic Contemptor with 2 twin Autocannons + CML.
It would be the best one vs T6 4+ (Necrons), but the Quantum Shielding makes it less valuable. The same AC Relic Contemptor is just a bit worse and more efficient (as the Necrons player would need to roll 1s instead of 3s or less).
Again, the plasma Deredeo wins - this time, vs T7 2+/5++ (Riptide). Didn't factor in 3++ because it would be just worse, but still better than the other options.
It's also the best option vs T8 3+ and 2+.
2 conclusions this far:
- WotDA is really a good stratagem.
- Plasma Deredeo is a really good anti-tank option. Too bad it's only 24".
I think I'll finish the AT part this weekend and I'll post the results here.
axisofentropy wrote: Aggressors with Azrael are bonkers good, probably best in faction.
I guess if they don't have to move, they can absolutely murder hordes. Maybe I'll try a few at some point, as I am trying to figure out the best anti-horde option we currently have without taking allies.
axisofentropy wrote: Aggressors with Azrael are bonkers good, probably best in faction.
I guess if they don't have to move, they can absolutely murder hordes. Maybe I'll try a few at some point, as I am trying to figure out the best anti-horde option we currently have without taking allies.
With Azzy and a LT a squad of 6 "on the move" still murders a 30 man conscript blob in 1 round of shooting. In most cases Agressors are going to have to move to be effective.
axisofentropy wrote: Aggressors with Azrael are bonkers good, probably best in faction.
I noticed the plasma Deredeo on this thread's first page but I didn't think it was all that great. Maybe Azrael makes it great?
I've been creating an excel file comparing the anti-tank (and later the anti-infantry) options we have access to. For now I've done Deimos Predator, Relic Contemptor, Deredeo, Sicarans (all s7+ variants) and the Tarantula Sentry Gun.
Assuming optimal distance, still dreadnoughts, overcharging plasma and WotDA stratagem, the Hellfire Cannonade Deredeo is simply better than all of the others against T7 3+ (a bit less than 20 points per damage inflicted). The closest, inside the same list, is the Relic Contemptor with 2 Heavy Plasma Cannon and a Cyclone Missile Launcher - but even then it's almost 10 points per damage worse.
The plasma Deredeo is the best option (again, among that list) against T5 4+/5++ (Dark Eldar), but only 4 points per damage more than a Relic Contemptor with 2 twin Autocannons + CML.
It would be the best one vs T6 4+ (Necrons), but the Quantum Shielding makes it less valuable. The same AC Relic Contemptor is just a bit worse and more efficient (as the Necrons player would need to roll 1s instead of 3s or less).
Again, the plasma Deredeo wins - this time, vs T7 2+/5++ (Riptide). Didn't factor in 3++ because it would be just worse, but still better than the other options.
It's also the best option vs T8 3+ and 2+.
2 conclusions this far:
- WotDA is really a good stratagem.
- Plasma Deredeo is a really good anti-tank option. Too bad it's only 24".
I think I'll finish the AT part this weekend and I'll post the results here.
have you factored in the Chap Dread with Plasma cannon into this ?
zedsdead wrote: have you factored in the Chap Dread with Plasma cannon into this ?
No, because it's not a prime ranged AT source. But I'll put it in there, alongside the Multi-Melta and Twin Lascannon options.
I'm almost finished with the AT part (I think I'll finish it before noon, GMT 0 time).
zedsdead wrote: have you factored in the Chap Dread with Plasma cannon into this ?
No, because it's not a prime ranged AT source. But I'll put it in there, alongside the Multi-Melta and Twin Lascannon options.
I'm almost finished with the AT part (I think I'll finish it before noon, GMT 0 time).
Do me a favor and run the numbers against plasma inceptors? Their wounds inflicted per point overcharged with WftDA is the highest on my list for Marines and would love to be sure that I'm not over-looking anything.
They reliably earn their points+ back in one round of shooting (usually all they get) and are good at surgically removing the biggest enemy threat, in my experience. I prefer two groups of 4 but with their crazy PL I end up running one 5 and one 3 most of the time.
zedsdead wrote: have you factored in the Chap Dread with Plasma cannon into this ?
No, because it's not a prime ranged AT source. But I'll put it in there, alongside the Multi-Melta and Twin Lascannon options.
I'm almost finished with the AT part (I think I'll finish it before noon, GMT 0 time).
im very interested to see the outcome.
Well, From T5 4+ to T6 3+/5++, the Chaplain Dread isn't in a very good position... The Plasma Cannon one is certainly less worse than the Lascannon and Multi-Melta ones, but it is still lacklustre. Again, I'm not counting on the melee capacity.
bananathug wrote: Do me a favor and run the numbers against plasma inceptors? Their wounds inflicted per point overcharged with WftDA is the highest on my list for Marines and would love to be sure that I'm not over-looking anything.
They reliably earn their points+ back in one round of shooting (usually all they get) and are good at surgically removing the biggest enemy threat, in my experience. I prefer two groups of 4 but with their crazy PL I end up running one 5 and one 3 most of the time.
Plasma Inceptors and Rapid Fire Hellblasters are showing quite the good numbers in my calculations. Even Assault Hellblasters aren't that bad against T5 and T6 stuff (both Hellblaster flavours are better than the Heavy one - considering everyone still)
Vector Strike wrote: Rapid Fire Hellblasters are showing quite the good numbers in my calculations. Even Assault Hellblasters aren't that bad against T5 and T6 stuff (both Hellblaster flavours are better than the Heavy one - considering everyone still)
This is actually very interesting to me. I have moved on from the standard HB and moved to the Assault version. I would like to see the numbers.
I run them with a bunch of agressors. Im constantly moving them and sometimes advancing alll the units.
Are you giving a stat on "advancing" Hellblasters ?
So, I'm thinking I may have found a little hidden gem in our codex in the form of Scout Bikes. Considering they get shotguns for free in addition to the bike's twin bolter, they seem pretty solid. Add to this that the sarge can take a storm bolter (in the Index, which is still valid for wargear choices), and can fire all of his weapons (so 10 bolter shots under 12"!) and they seem like a very nice source of cheap chaff-clearing power. I've got a buddy who likes to run them with his White Scars and they seem solid for him. Compared to standard Ravenwing, Scout Bikes cost 2 points less per model, have no access to specials (flamers, etc.) and don't get the Ravenwing keyword (so no Jink, Speed of the Raven, etc.), and they have a worse save, but I'm thinking they might still be worth including. Plus, they can use the Cluster Mines stratagem if they end up in combat and have to fall back.
Tier 3: HPC+CML Relic Contemptor, LC/AC/MM/HPC+CML Contemptor-Mortis, Laser Rapier, CMLan/SCA Leviathan, HPC+ML* (Venerable) Dread, MM Devastators, Heavy Hellblasters, MM Land Speeder, Land Speeder Vengeance
Disclaimer: Dark Talon didn't show up as any kind of promising unit, but as we all know reality is different. Anyway, this is for anti-tank, while Dark Talons are known for mowing down infantry. Next month it'll certainly shine in my calculations
* Just noticed I wrote 'CML' instead of 'ML'. Please consider it as 'ML'.
This is actually very interesting to me. I have moved on from the standard HB and moved to the Assault version. I would like to see the numbers.
I run them with a bunch of agressors. Im constantly moving them and sometimes advancing alll the units.
Are you giving a stat on "advancing" Hellblasters ?
No, because I'm lazy after doing this for the entire weekend. I'm posting the spreadsheet as well, so all you have to do is remove the '+0,17' from each 'Tx Y++' columns regarding said units to see the numbers and compare with the PDF for each bracket.
I'd guess it wouldn't make them any much different, as they're already some of the best choices for DA.
---
Ah, as anything GW-related, a errata must follow the main product.
- Report, page 1, point 2: Redemptor Dreadnought's underarm Gatling weapon WAS factored in my calculations.
- Report, page 1, point 9: instead of 'damage inflicted', read 'weapon damage'. 'Damage inflicted' is the result of the formulae. PPD is the point cost of the unit divided by the damaged inflicted.
So looking at that top DA list (that finished 52nd overall) its interesting in that there is not a Hellblaster in sight. The plasma is sourced from Company Veterans and Inceptors mainly, which does track with the results that Vector Strike came up with above as being about as effective as Hellblasters. The list also had no Dark Talons in it either. He did, however, have the standard 3 Golden Jetcaptains seen in almost every Imperial list these days.
This is making me want to revisit Company Veterans. Maybe there's something to them if people are having some success with them. They are slightly cheaper than Hellblasters, but to me not enough since they only have 1 wound and slightly worse AP on their guns. 4 ppm for an extra wound is worth it IMO. The main thing Vets can do that Hellblasters cannot is ride in any transport other than a Repulsor. I'm planning on picking up a Stormraven from a friend soon, so maybe I'll try dropping a few Vets out of that and see what happens.
Hi all, this is my 2,000 point list with influences from some on here. Thinking the second Talonmaster is unnecessary though, so tempted to swap him out for a different HQ choice? Any ideas?
Guys, I've updated the spreadsheet and the report. It shall provide more accurate results!
It is still limited to anti-tank (both ranged and melee), but next month I'll do anti-infantry.
That's a cool analysis! Looks like maybe Veterans should be in every list, at least with plasma. I wonder how they'll fare in the anti-infantry calculations?
Looking at the results of your comprehensive survey, it looks lie Assault Hellblasters actually better at fighting T8+ tanks such as the Leman Russ that the Heavy Hellblasters.
I was sort of considering Heavy Hellblaster do to the longer range and the S9 guns. But maybe not.
Then there is the rapid fire variant. But you have to get in pretty damn close to get your two shots.
I'm worried that in an actual game, are the closer range varients really going to be able to get close enough to do work without being blasted off the table?
dan2026 wrote: Looking at the results of your comprehensive survey, it looks lie Assault Hellblasters actually better at fighting T8+ tanks such as the Leman Russ that the Heavy Hellblasters.
I was sort of considering Heavy Hellblaster do to the longer range and the S9 guns. But maybe not.
Then there is the rapid fire variant. But you have to get in pretty damn close to get your two shots.
I'm worried that in an actual game, are the closer range varients really going to be able to get close enough to do work without being blasted off the table?
Just take note that this comparison is unit-by-unit basis. Azrael really helps RF Hellblasters do their job - and they do it better than either different Hellblaster option.
I'd say Plasma Devastators simply surpass Heavy Hellblasters to the point the latter aren't really in the same league
dan2026 wrote: Looking at the results of your comprehensive survey, it looks lie Assault Hellblasters actually better at fighting T8+ tanks such as the Leman Russ that the Heavy Hellblasters.
I was sort of considering Heavy Hellblaster do to the longer range and the S9 guns. But maybe not.
Then there is the rapid fire variant. But you have to get in pretty damn close to get your two shots.
I'm worried that in an actual game, are the closer range varients really going to be able to get close enough to do work without being blasted off the table?
Just take note that this comparison is unit-by-unit basis. Azrael really helps RF Hellblasters do their job - and they do it better than either different Hellblaster option.
I'd say Plasma Devastators simply surpass Heavy Hellblasters to the point the latter aren't really in the same league
So for taking on T8 targets like Leman Russes what would you recommend?
Devastators?
So for taking on T8 targets like Leman Russes what would you recommend?
Devastators?
RF Hellblasters, Plasma Veterans, Plasma Inceptors and Plasma Devastators are the most cost-effective units to do that (all overcharging and with WotdA).
But a Leviathan Dread with 2x Cyclonic Melta Lance will kill a Leman Russ per turn, in average (13.60 damage inflicted if standing still*, 11.60 if moved). Standing still, overcharging and using WotDA RF Hellblasters at half-range will more or less kill one too (11.76 damage inflicted), followed by Inceptors (same conditions: 11.71 damage inflicted). Company Veterans and Plasma Devastators, folloing the same conditions, won't kill one Leman Russ in average (less than 10 damage caused)
*standing still can be exchanged for a nearby Master/Azrael
So for taking on T8 targets like Leman Russes what would you recommend?
Devastators?
RF Hellblasters, Plasma Veterans, Plasma Inceptors and Plasma Devastators are the most cost-effective units to do that (all overcharging and with WotdA).
But a Leviathan Dread with 2x Cyclonic Melta Lance will kill a Leman Russ per turn, in average (13.60 damage inflicted if standing still*, 11.60 if moved). Standing still, overcharging and using WotDA RF Hellblasters at half-range will more or less kill one too (11.76 damage inflicted), followed by Inceptors (same conditions: 11.71 damage inflicted). Company Veterans and Plasma Devastators, folloing the same conditions, won't kill one Leman Russ in average (less than 10 damage caused)
*standing still can be exchanged for a nearby Master/Azrael
And this here is the rub. I am finding that S7 hellblasters are a bit overkill in so many instances. i find my HBs shooting at T4-6 stuff so much more often. Im still on the fence but i am finding the Assault HBs version a bit more versitile. I almost never get outranged and im getting 2 shots out of them. With Azzy they are great. Sure the RFHBs are awsome but by then im in such close range im getting shot or charged. Its still a tough one but im liking my Assault HBs more and more.
ZergSmasher wrote: That's a cool analysis! Looks like maybe Veterans should be in every list, at least with plasma. I wonder how they'll fare in the anti-infantry calculations?
I would like to point out that I asked about this idea months ago and promptly got shot down that they were too expensive! Oh, irony.
ZergSmasher wrote: That's a cool analysis! Looks like maybe Veterans should be in every list, at least with plasma. I wonder how they'll fare in the anti-infantry calculations?
I would like to point out that I asked about this idea months ago and promptly got shot down that they were too expensive! Oh, irony.
To be honest, their damage per point is really good as per the analysis, but with just 1 wound their survivability per point is probably not so great. Hence why people (including myself probably) said they were too expensive. One way to mitigate that and make sure they get to shoot would be to let them ride in a Stormraven or something, perhaps.
ZergSmasher wrote: That's a cool analysis! Looks like maybe Veterans should be in every list, at least with plasma. I wonder how they'll fare in the anti-infantry calculations?
I would like to point out that I asked about this idea months ago and promptly got shot down that they were too expensive! Oh, irony.
To be honest, their damage per point is really good as per the analysis, but with just 1 wound their survivability per point is probably not so great. Hence why people (including myself probably) said they were too expensive. One way to mitigate that and make sure they get to shoot would be to let them ride in a Stormraven or something, perhaps.
I was thinking of putting two veteran squads with plasma and chain swords in a crusader together with Ezekiel and start wrecking stuff.
zedsdead wrote:And this here is the rub. I am finding that S7 hellblasters are a bit overkill in so many instances. i find my HBs shooting at T4-6 stuff so much more often. Im still on the fence but i am finding the Assault HBs version a bit more versitile. I almost never get outranged and im getting 2 shots out of them. With Azzy they are great. Sure the RFHBs are awsome but by then im in such close range im getting shot or charged. Its still a tough one but im liking my Assault HBs more and more.
Well, Assault Hellblasters aren't that bad vs T8 3+ (22,50 PPD; 7.76 damage inflicted) and if they're working for you, kudos to that!
Shrapnelbait wrote:
ZergSmasher wrote: That's a cool analysis! Looks like maybe Veterans should be in every list, at least with plasma. I wonder how they'll fare in the anti-infantry calculations?
I would like to point out that I asked about this idea months ago and promptly got shot down that they were too expensive! Oh, irony.
As ZergSmasher said: they're very effective for their points, but they're flimsy. They need a transport do to their job, while Hellblasters have a bit more survivability and Devastators can plink away from a safe distance.
Played in a 40 player "Supreme Commander" tournament at 1,250 points. You had to have a Named Character and you could not bring Lords of War or Super Heavies. I took Sammael on Corvex, a Talonmaster, an RW Champion, six RW Black Knights, an RW Bike Squad with two Meltas and a Multi-Melta Attack Bike, a Darkshourd, two Scout Squads and a Tactical Squad. The missions all had bonus points for your Warlord doing stuff.
Game 1 vs Custodes: He had Trajan, a Shield Captain on a Bike, a Bike squad and three normal squads. The Darkshroud helped me weather his Meltamissiles. I then used my mobility to focus on his jetbikes. The Meltas on the RW Bikes combined with massed Black Knight supercharging WfTDA Plasma wiped the Custodes bikes. After that I could use my mobility and firewpower to erase a squad a turn. By Turn 5 Trajan was limping along alone and Sammael went in for the mercy kill (and tabling). Result - Dark Angles win.
Game 2 vs Blood Angels. He had Mephiston, a variety of BA units and a Leviathan Dreadnought. The objective was simply to kill the enemy Warlord. Half of the Black Knights died to rolling 1s on supercharge on the first turn and the Leviathan made its invul saves. My plan was distract him with movement until Sammael was within striking range of Mephiston. The plan worked and I pulled off the surprise aerial assault, but I did a bad job of managing my CPs and did not have enough for Honour the Chapter or Only in Death Does Duty End when I made my surprise solo assault. Mephiston was left with two wounds after my strikes and Sammael went down. At least it was dramatic! Dark Angels loss.
Game 3 vs Blood Angels. This was for Kill Points. He had The Sanguinor, a 15 man Deathcompany, a Las Pred and three tactical squads in Rhinos. His Death Company went after my screening scouts, after which I whittled him down to nothing in two turns of massed shooting while the other Tac Squad and Scouts bought time. There was lots of LoS blocking terrain which, combined with my Darkshround, neutralized his Las Predator. When the game ended on Turn 5 he was down to a Rhino and a Tac Squad. Dark Angels Win.
Game 4 vs Harlequins. The Harley codex had come out the night before so this was a journey of discovery! He had Bikes and Harleys on Vypers. We were fighting for Table Quarters and this one turned into a revolving door as my Bikes smashed his left wing while two of his Harley squads on Vypers rolled up my own left wing. Even with his -1 to hit and 4++ saves, though, my own Darkshroud and Jink evened that out. Massed RW firepower with the Talonmaster and Sammael buffing was too much for his Harleys. Dark Angels Win.
We closed with boss battles - I drew Gazkull. I could have simply flew around him and shot him but that seemed lame so I charged in to a glorious death!
I was happy with the list, bearing in mind that the format means that the lessons may not be universally applicable. The big RW Knight squad was great, although the rubber band of probability hurt me on Game 2 - I am a gambler with Plasma and it can hurt! I was constantly supercharging with WFTDA and they certainly made their mark on the enemy. The RW Bikes with Melta were also quite useful. I realized in the final game that I had been forgetting to apply the Talonmaster's ability to allow RW units to ignore the +1 Cover Saves when they were within 6". This would have helped in Game 2 and 3. The Talonmaster was still amazing. The RW Champion with The Eye of the Unseen was a nasty surprise to some folks. I am not saying he is a open tourney must-have, but he was a late addition to my list that worked out. Sammael on Corvex was fun and characterful. If I had managed CPs better in Game 2 I could have gone 4-0 instead of 3-1. Lesson learned!
As an aside, tourneys with low points values can be a nice change of pace. The top finishers were Tyranids with the Swarmlord, Chaos with Abaddon and the Blood Angel I faced in round 2.
I'd like to try something that isn't just the usual Azrael + Hellblasters and Devastators gunline. I know there has been some measure of success with more mobile DA lists before, and I've been wanting to get my Ravenwing on the table again, so this seemed like a good opportunity. I'm curious how some of you, my fellow Dark Angels fans, feel about it? Is there something I should tweak? Should I just stick to Azrael and those Hellblasters?
Seems like it could go alright. I always think having two options for WotDA is a good call. Little tweaks I'd make would be to swap the snipers for bolters (personally haven't got much mileage out of snipers) and get a fourth heavy weapon in the devastator unit with the extra points. I'd also ditch the GL on the RWBK to maximize WotDA use. Big fan of the scout bikes. Unless you're trying to minimize drops, 2x3 might be worth considering over 1x6 but idk
I dig it, should do well. Consider paying a CP for the -1 to hit relic for your jump pack master for extra fun with that 3++. I concur with dropping the sniper rifles and switching out the Ravenwing grenade launcher.
The grenade launcher is only there because that's the model I have, but honestly I doubt anyone will have a problem with it being a slight breach of WYSIWYG. I had also thought about the stratagem for it, but I'm not sure it's worth losing a plasma talon. I had originally planned for the snipers to harass enemy characters and at least force them to keep their heads down (so to speak), but I think it's true that one unit will not accomplish much on its own. Probably better to have the fourth heavy weapon (either 2nd ML or 3rd LC) in the dev squad.
Sammael on speeder
2 talonmaster one has heavenfall blade
1x8 black knights
2x3 bikes one unit is flamer, other is grav
3x5 scouts
3 dark talons
1 darkshroud.
New to the forum, but stumbled upon this thread and very happy to see people discussing running lots of ravenwing! I'm just getting back into the game after not playing for over 15 years. I've been using a similar list like the one above, but keep feeling like the knights end up getting targeted quickly/dying and then the "bubble" sort of crumbles.
I still have lots to learn, but could anyone give some advice on how best to maneuver a list like the one above? Obviously it depends on the type of mission and board layout, but generally speaking. My commander skills certainly need a lot of work but any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Sammael on speeder
2 talonmaster one has heavenfall blade
1x8 black knights
2x3 bikes one unit is flamer, other is grav
3x5 scouts
3 dark talons
1 darkshroud.
New to the forum, but stumbled upon this thread and very happy to see people discussing running lots of ravenwing! I'm just getting back into the game after not playing for over 15 years. I've been using a similar list like the one above, but keep feeling like the knights end up getting targeted quickly/dying and then the "bubble" sort of crumbles.
I still have lots to learn, but could anyone give some advice on how best to maneuver a list like the one above? Obviously it depends on the type of mission and board layout, but generally speaking. My commander skills certainly need a lot of work but any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Welcome to the Rock!
I find that deciding who Jinks and gets to use Speed of the Raven is a critical decision. A lot will depend on the target array - if I don't need to supercharge the Plasma Talons then they can Advance and fire without worry allowing an RW Bike Squad to use Speed of the Raven to advance, fire and get that 4++ as well. My Ravenwing tend to run as a bit of a blob with at least two big units within 6" of Sammael, the Talonmaster and the Darkshroud. Use mobility to hit one part of the enemy hard (preferably one of the enemy wings/flanks) and then roll him up. Driving into the centre of the enemy position is usually inviting disaster.
A Ravenwing list on an open table without much LOS blocking terrain is praying for 1st turn or else the RW Black Knights will indeed die quickly. Try to deploy the RW Black Knights out of sight otherwise they get targeted if you lose the roll-off. Once I am moving, though, I find that a Darkshroud and Jink make the Black Knights pretty resilient. Just avoid the temptation to charge into CC with them unless its really favourable/desperate.
I'd like to try something that isn't just the usual Azrael + Hellblasters and Devastators gunline. I know there has been some measure of success with more mobile DA lists before, and I've been wanting to get my Ravenwing on the table again, so this seemed like a good opportunity. I'm curious how some of you, my fellow Dark Angels fans, feel about it? Is there something I should tweak? Should I just stick to Azrael and those Hellblasters?
I often use a lot more ravenwing and keep Azrael near a dread and maybe 5 hellblasters. I find ten of them just too boring.
Sammael on speeder
2 talonmaster one has heavenfall blade
1x8 black knights
2x3 bikes one unit is flamer, other is grav
3x5 scouts
3 dark talons
1 darkshroud.
New to the forum, but stumbled upon this thread and very happy to see people discussing running lots of ravenwing! I'm just getting back into the game after not playing for over 15 years. I've been using a similar list like the one above, but keep feeling like the knights end up getting targeted quickly/dying and then the "bubble" sort of crumbles.
I still have lots to learn, but could anyone give some advice on how best to maneuver a list like the one above? Obviously it depends on the type of mission and board layout, but generally speaking. My commander skills certainly need a lot of work but any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Welcome to the Rock!
I find that deciding who Jinks and gets to use Speed of the Raven is a critical decision. A lot will depend on the target array - if I don't need to supercharge the Plasma Talons then they can Advance and fire without worry allowing an RW Bike Squad to use Speed of the Raven to advance, fire and get that 4++ as well. My Ravenwing tend to run as a bit of a blob with at least two big units within 6" of Sammael, the Talonmaster and the Darkshroud. Use mobility to hit one part of the enemy hard (preferably one of the enemy wings/flanks) and then roll him up. Driving into the centre of the enemy position is usually inviting disaster.
A Ravenwing list on an open table without much LOS blocking terrain is praying for 1st turn or else the RW Black Knights will indeed die quickly. Try to deploy the RW Black Knights out of sight otherwise they get targeted if you lose the roll-off. Once I am moving, though, I find that a Darkshroud and Jink make the Black Knights pretty resilient. Just avoid the temptation to charge into CC with them unless its really favourable/desperate.
Thanks for the advice! Twice i've attempted to run my BK heavy blob more or less straight into some heavy stuff assuming I could do a lot of damage with the plasma and then charge and finish up in CC. Yeah that clearly doesn't work very well (in most cases anyway).
Should I be using bikers in front of the BK's as a screen for moving up the field -- this is assuming I already have a dark shroud as well. In general i'm guessing I should try to keep all of my bikes in a bubble rather than attempt to spread out on the board?
Also curious how you feel about leaving something heavy in the backfield -- predator, venerable dread -- something with lascannons and some more anti-tank to harass from afar while the dark talons get up close.
At 1,500 points you can fit a big RW Black Knight Squad, a decent-sized Ravenwing Bike Squadron, Sammael, the Talonmaster and a Darkshroud plus some supporting units (Scouts, Devastators etc).
I find its useful to run the Rawenwing units as a cohesive blob to benefit from the various aura and provide mutual support at the decisive point. If you need to secure multiple objectives you can try to use your mobility late in the game to split up and secure after defeating the main enemy as a concentrated force. That's one of the big advantages of Ravenwing over normal Dark Angels - exploit their mobility and firepower! The normal Ravenwing Bikes are not so much a screen (although I have sacrificed them a few times to save the Black Knights), but rather extra dakka to help destroy the enemy at your chosen point.
Even with the Beta Deepstrike/Reserve rules I still use Scout squads to create a DS-free zone in the midfield. This can pay off on Turn 2 as I find the Ravenwing Bikes like to engage from midfield. I usually use the full 18" of range for the Black Knights to limit retaliation - there is no real benefit to closing the range and you can always use your mobility the next turn to displace.
At 1,500 points I can include some long-ranged firepower in the form of a Devastator Squad with Lascannon. Black Knights can deal with most enemy tanks, but the range limit of 18" can be exploited by your opponent if he screens his tanks properly. Having something with real range in your force can certainly help.
One thing I can't get to work is normal Ravenwing Landspeeder. While the Talonmaster and Sammael on Sableclaw are great, the rank and file Landspeeders have struggled to find a place in my lists. I tried to make them work out of nostalgia, but they are pretty much just display models for now.
Against my better judgement and after some.unsuccessful test, I tried a Land Speeder with the double heavy flamer... and it works!!!!
It synergies very well with the fast movement, have a decent AP (with a Talonmaster around and unit hidden around) and in general was a pleasant surprise.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: At 1,500 points you can fit a big RW Black Knight Squad, a decent-sized Ravenwing Bike Squadron, Sammael, the Talonmaster and a Darkshroud plus some supporting units (Scouts, Devastators etc).
I find its useful to run the Rawenwing units as a cohesive blob to benefit from the various aura and provide mutual support at the decisive point. If you need to secure multiple objectives you can try to use your mobility late in the game to split up and secure after defeating the main enemy as a concentrated force. That's one of the big advantages of Ravenwing over normal Dark Angels - exploit their mobility and firepower! The normal Ravenwing Bikes are not so much a screen (although I have sacrificed them a few times to save the Black Knights), but rather extra dakka to help destroy the enemy at your chosen point.
Even with the Beta Deepstrike/Reserve rules I still use Scout squads to create a DS-free zone in the midfield. This can pay off on Turn 2 as I find the Ravenwing Bikes like to engage from midfield. I usually use the full 18" of range for the Black Knights to limit retaliation - there is no real benefit to closing the range and you can always use your mobility the next turn to displace.
At 1,500 points I can include some long-ranged firepower in the form of a Devastator Squad with Lascannon. Black Knights can deal with most enemy tanks, but the range limit of 18" can be exploited by your opponent if he screens his tanks properly. Having something with real range in your force can certainly help.
One thing I can't get to work is normal Ravenwing Landspeeder. While the Talonmaster and Sammael on Sableclaw are great, the rank and file Landspeeders have struggled to find a place in my lists. I tried to make them work out of nostalgia, but they are pretty much just display models for now.
Excellent advice thank you! I think I need to be more aware of my distance from the enemy to maximize the plasma talons but also to stay out of charge range if possible. That should help me stay mobile (and hopefully more 'alive').
Question for you guys, looking at a Battalion and an Outrider detachment. I have Sammy on a sableclaw and a talonmaster for the Battalion, but need another HQ choice for the outrider. How does a librarian on a bike sound? Better options? I was thinking of using Aversion to help give another -1 to hit for enemy unit in 24" which would also help with the dark shroud as well. Either mind wipe or smite for the other psychic ability.
Also have some points left over, does anyone run a Ravenwing Apothecary? I figured it's extra plasma talons and can keep some of my black knights alive longer.
Though a librarian biker + ravenwing apothecary is about 221pts. I at least need 1 HQ for the second detachment, just not sure what's best. Rest of the list looks like:
Sammael Sableclaw
Talonmaster
Scouts (4 + heavy bolter)
Scouts (4 + heavy bolter)
Scouts (4 + heavy bolter)
Ravenwing Apothecary
Ravenwing Dark Shroud
Librarian on a bike
Ravenwing bike squad (2 bikes + sarge, flamer + meltagun)
Ravenwing bike squad (2 bikes + sarge, flamer + meltagun)
Ravenwing Black knights (9)
Dark Talon (x2)
Another option rather than librarian on bike is techmarine on bike. Its cheaper and you can heal Sammy and Talon master with him. He can also heal a dark shroud or even a dark talon if you move just right.
I have run a Librarian on a Bike out of the Index to support my RW at 1500 points. Psychic defence against Smite etc is important for your valuable bikes, and as you note Aversion can be really effective.
I also run an Apothecary from time to time. When he brings a Black Knight or two back he's a star. Sometimes he just eats CPs from me re-rolling to get a 3+.
A good suggestion from Swillsswil on a Techmarine on a Bike, especially if Sammael is running on Sableclaw!
Personally, I'd be inclined to ditch both the apothecary and lib and fill that HQ slot with a second Talonmaster. I'm not sold on the apothecary but if you go that route I think the Techmarine is a good call
So we were going to have a tournament earlier today, but hardly anyone showed up. We ended up just playing a few pickup games instead using the ITC missions. I ran my Dark Angels with 2 detachments: a Battalion with Sammael in Sableclaw, a Talonmaster (with Heavenfall Blade), 3 Scout Squads, a Devastator Squad (2 Lascannons, 2 Missile Launchers), and a Dark Talon, along with an Outrider with a Master with Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer, and Storm Shield, a 6-man Inceptor Squad with Plasma, a Darkshroud, a 6-man Scout Bike squad, and a 6-man Black Knights squad with a grenade launcher. The first game I played was vs. pure Drukhari. I ended up winning only because the game was going long and we ended it early (both of us were learning our armies and units, so we were equally guilty of slow play). If it had gone on, I probably would not have won, as I was running out of material. The Inceptors did really well, as did the Dark Talon. That Agents of Vect strat is really annoying, as it prevented me from firing after falling back in one instance. I did make good use of Hellfire Shells and Flakk Missile though, along with WotDA of course. In my second game of the day, I faced one of the top players in the ITC and he was running a pure Tsons list. The only way I ended up accomplishing anything in that game was because he failed two important charges on turn 1 (Magnus and some Tzaangors that used the Dark Matter Crystal), allowing my Plasma Inceptors to drop in and erase Magnus (3 Inceptors blew themselves up thanks to -1 to hit). I rolled really hot with their numbers of shots, though, or Magnus would not have died. I also wiped the Tzaangors. Ultimately the list just could not cope with the number of Smites he was throwing out, since Tsons ignore the penalty to Smite apparently (didn't know that), and I conceded on turn 3 with just 7 of my models on the board.
My feelings about the units I used:
Sammael: He's good, but only with Ravenwing, who aren't that hot overall. Sableclaw is better than Corvex for sure.
Talonmaster: Really fun, but expensive. Probably works better with a gunline so he won't have to move as often, as that screws up his shooting.
Scouts: I mean, they are your troop tax, so you gotta take them if you want a decent supply of CP. The infiltrate is cool, although it didn't really help in either of my two games today. I might swap one unit for some Intercessors instead.
Devastators: They are solid, and provide some heavy firepower to supplement your plasma guys. The Cherub + Flakk or Hellfire is legit. 2d3 mortal wounds for 1 CP? Yes please!
Dark Talon: Another solid performer. Absolutely shreds hordes, and works very well against mooks with invul saves (like Tzaangors) thanks to the stasis bomb. The short range on the rift cannon sucks, but the speed of the plane helps negate that little problem.
Master on Jump Pack: He didn't really get a chance to shine in either game, so the jury is still out on the loadout. Rerolling 1's on the Inceptors is clutch, though.
Inceptors with Plasma: Very solid unit. They put out so many wounds with WotDA. They are expensive and not that tough to kill, though, so don't expect them to get much more than 1 turn of shooting in.
Darkshroud: Must take unit. It will get focused hard though, so don't expect it to win you the game and be prepared to lose that protection quickly. It will take some of the heat off your squishier units though.
Scout Bikes: Again, jury's still out as they never got a real chance, but in the first game they got to squeeze off a nice 40-shot volley (6 Twin Bolters + 6 Shotguns + Storm Bolter on Sarge, all under 12"). I feel like they are very good for their points, and if they survive something charging them, they can use that cheeky stratagem as they fall back.
Black Knights: Nowhere near good enough for their points. Yes, the Plasma Inceptors are more expensive with the same durability, but they get a lot more shots at least plus they can hide in reserves. They really need a points drop to be worth taking. Mortal wounds from psychic powers/C'tan abilities just wreck them fast.
Overall I think I need to just stick to the Azrael gunline for competitive play. It's boring as hell to run, but at least it sort of works. I should save the Ravenwing stuff for casual play, as it is at least interesting and fun to run a fast-moving list like that.
I've seen a few lists that take one dev blob with 4 heavies in it. Consider spending a few points to do 2 dev squads with 2 heavies each. This gets you an extra signum and an extra cherub. I personally use 1 LC+1ML and 1 LC+1 HB. This allows you to double fire flakk and hellfire turn 1. That could be 4d3 mortals on something like magnus. You also end up with 2 meat shields in each squad before you loose more valuable models.
Imperial Knights seem to be all the craze atm. I was wondering if anyone had good ideas on how to add knight elements to a dark angels army as a supporting element.
Been running different variations of azrael and hellblasters or ravenwing and I am struggling to think of an effective combination.
While I may not *need* them, I already have a plan for a small knight force seconded to my dark angels. The armigers will be painted in ravenwing livery. The questoris class in greenwing. And the dominus class in deathwing.
1. Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment
2. Imperial Knight Gallant
3. Give it <Questor Mechanicus> allegiance (better Stratagems, I'd say)
4. Make it a Freeblade
a. Quality: Peerless Warrior
b. Burdens: Exiled in Shame and Obsessed with Vengeance
5. Spend 1CP on the Stratagem to make it a Character and give it the +1A Warlord Trait
6. Give it the 5++ in melee relic
7. Give extra weapons at will
Now you have a 12" moving, WS 2+ T8 24W 6A with tremendous power. You have a 50% chance to get +1 WS (which means it'll still fight at WS2+ for 2 brackets instead of 1) and 33% chance of getting +2" move.
It's simply more efficient than any other melee unit at our disposal vs T5+. I have yet to calculate vs T4-, though.
I was actually thinking about making a Superheavy detachment with 2 Armiger Helverins, 2 Armiger Warglaives, and a Knight Gallant, along with Azrael and friends (Hellblasters and stuff). I have a feeling that mixing DA and Knights will really be taking Knights and adding DA to supplement it, rather than the other way around, at least if you want more than 1 Knight. I do kind of like the Freeblade idea above though.
Knights need allies with bodies, and so pair much better with Guard and AdMech than other Imperials. Best Dark Angels can offer is probably piles of scouts. A smash jump master is good too, but Blood Angels do this better.
How about this idea: 3 Dark Talons, and 1400 points worth of Knight stuff. Could probably get 3 full size Knights in there. The Talons could deal with hordes that could bog Knights down and overwhelm their relatively low numbers of shots, and the Knights could deal with the heavy stuff. You would only have 7 CP to work with though, and that hurts since Knights need quite a few for their best stratagems.
Vector Strike wrote: 1. Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment
2. Imperial Knight Gallant
3. Give it <Questor Mechanicus> allegiance (better Stratagems, I'd say)
4. Make it a Freeblade
a. Quality: Peerless Warrior
b. Burdens: Exiled in Shame and Obsessed with Vengeance
5. Spend 1CP on the Stratagem to make it a Character and give it the +1A Warlord Trait
6. Give it the 5++ in melee relic
7. Give extra weapons at will
Now you have a 12" moving, WS 2+ T8 24W 6A with tremendous power. You have a 50% chance to get +1 WS (which means it'll still fight at WS2+ for 2 brackets instead of 1) and 33% chance of getting +2" move.
It's simply more efficient than any other melee unit at our disposal vs T5+. I have yet to calculate vs T4-, though.
add in 30 hellblasters, Azzy, 3 scout squads a LT with HF blade and an ancient and you have a pretty formidable force
Honestly don't think we'd really benefit all that much from a knight. A Gallant could combat our relatively week melee options but the Gallant itself need melee support like Dragoons or something imo.
If you do go that route I think the best loadout is probably Terryn (for the strat) with either Ion Bulwark or Landstrider WLT and either the Paragon Gauntlet (if there's something you want to Death Grip) or the Armour of Sainted Ion.
Imo our best option is probably a Hawkshroud Valiant though, with Ion Bulwark and Traitor's Pyre for the overwatch threat. Our Az bubble already wanted to be at around the same range for rapid fire and to put the aggressors to work
To take Terryn or any other House Tradition, you'll need an entire 3-Questor/Dominus Super-heavy Detachment. By that time you're already playing an IK list, not DA...
Vector Strike wrote: To take Terryn or any other House Tradition, you'll need an entire 3-Questor/Dominus Super-heavy Detachment. By that time you're already playing an IK list, not DA...
What about supporting a Knight list with a bunch of Ravenwing? I had come up with a list with 3 Questoris Knights (Gallant, Crusader, Warden), along with Sammael, a Talonmaster, a Scout Bike unit, 3 Scout Squads, and some regular Ravenwing bikes. I think mobility is good to support the Knights and just cover the board. Obviously we want a warlord with Brilliant Strategist to hopefully recycle a couple of CP. I won't be able to try it out real soon as I don't have my other 2 Knights yet, but it seems like it could be okay.
So, I came up with another radical idea of how to combine Knights with our boys in green. Dreadnought spam! Basically, run a House Raven Castellan, and then put in as many Dreads as you can cram in. Shooty ones can stand still and thus benefit from Grim Resolve, whereas some can move up the board with their fists and punch stuff. I'm not sure it's competitive or anything, but it sure would be fun to see all those angry washing machines on the table. Probably want a Techmarine or two as HQ's so they can fix the Dreads, plus a Master to reroll 1's to hit on the moving ones. Better yet, to keep with the theme, take a Chaplain Dread!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Question, have any of you ever used a bastion. we are doing a league locally and the missions do not really benefit from a mobile army so I was thinking of putting ten hellblasters in a bastion with heavy incinerators.
I haven't used one before but it could be worth while. I'd take 2x5 Devs with plas cannons over hvy incinerator Hellblasters though as they're largely more efficient despite only being able to use WotDA on half of them. I'd take the Devs and then another unit to use WotDA on - standard Hellblasters or plas inceptors probably. Also could be worth taking 2x imperial bunker over the bastion if going with Devs - you trade the HBs for added durability and deployment flexibility
Edit: nice techy
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have an allies question: what have people found to be most valuable? And/or what holes do you think we could benefit from using allies to plug?
The two main things for me are psychic defense an LoS ignoring firepower. I can therefore see the merits of taking a calexus or even a vanguard with 2 other assassins, and of a guard artillery battalion with Basilisks - the cheap bodies and improved CP regen are a plus too.
Brother Payne wrote: I haven't used one before but it could be worth while. I'd take 2x5 Devs with plas cannons over hvy incinerator Hellblasters though as they're largely more efficient despite only being able to use WotDA on half of them. I'd take the Devs and then another unit to use WotDA on - standard Hellblasters or plas inceptors probably. Also could be worth taking 2x imperial bunker over the bastion if going with Devs - you trade the HBs for added durability and deployment flexibility
Edit: nice techy
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have an allies question: what have people found to be most valuable? And/or what holes do you think we could benefit from using allies to plug?
The two main things for me are psychic defense an LoS ignoring firepower. I can therefore see the merits of taking a calexus or even a vanguard with 2 other assassins, and of a guard artillery battalion with Basilisks - the cheap bodies and improved CP regen are a plus too.
What are people's thoughts?
As far as i know you can only use a stratagem once each turn which is why i am using a full squad of then hellblasters. by the way one sqaud of devs can only have 4 plasma cannons. how are they more efficient?
For allies I do sometimes use a vanguard of assassins but i find one calexus is often more than enough. As far as LOS ignoring firepower why not use the telemetry stratagem?
Brother Payne wrote: I haven't used one before but it could be worth while. I'd take 2x5 Devs with plas cannons over hvy incinerator Hellblasters though as they're largely more efficient despite only being able to use WotDA on half of them. I'd take the Devs and then another unit to use WotDA on - standard Hellblasters or plas inceptors probably. Also could be worth taking 2x imperial bunker over the bastion if going with Devs - you trade the HBs for added durability and deployment flexibility
Edit: nice techy
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have an allies question: what have people found to be most valuable? And/or what holes do you think we could benefit from using allies to plug?
The two main things for me are psychic defense an LoS ignoring firepower. I can therefore see the merits of taking a calexus or even a vanguard with 2 other assassins, and of a guard artillery battalion with Basilisks - the cheap bodies and improved CP regen are a plus too.
What are people's thoughts?
As far as i know you can only use a stratagem once each turn which is why i am using a full squad of then hellblasters. by the way one sqaud of devs can only have 4 plasma cannons. how are they more efficient?
For allies I do sometimes use a vanguard of assassins but i find one calexus is often more than enough. As far as LOS ignoring firepower why not use the telemetry stratagem?
Brother Payne wrote: I haven't used one before but it could be worth while. I'd take 2x5 Devs with plas cannons over hvy incinerator Hellblasters though as they're largely more efficient despite only being able to use WotDA on half of them. I'd take the Devs and then another unit to use WotDA on - standard Hellblasters or plas inceptors probably. Also could be worth taking 2x imperial bunker over the bastion if going with Devs - you trade the HBs for added durability and deployment flexibility
Edit: nice techy
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have an allies question: what have people found to be most valuable? And/or what holes do you think we could benefit from using allies to plug?
The two main things for me are psychic defense an LoS ignoring firepower. I can therefore see the merits of taking a calexus or even a vanguard with 2 other assassins, and of a guard artillery battalion with Basilisks - the cheap bodies and improved CP regen are a plus too.
What are people's thoughts?
As far as i know you can only use a stratagem once each turn which is why i am using a full squad of then hellblasters. by the way one sqaud of devs can only have 4 plasma cannons. how are they more efficient?
For allies I do sometimes use a vanguard of assassins but i find one calexus is often more than enough. As far as LOS ignoring firepower why not use the telemetry stratagem?
It's not each turn, it's each phase per turn
His point still stands though - you'd only be able to use WotDA on one of the Devs squads. PlasDevs are more efficient than hvy Hellblasters on a point for point basis, but as stated they suffer from only having 4 plas weapons and so aren't great targets for WotDA - hence why I suggested taking a separate unit for WotDA.
I always try to run two eligible units for WotDA, so in this case I would take either plas Inceptors or regular Hellblasters and use WotDA on that unit until they suffer enough casualties that it no longer becomes worth it, at which stage I'd switch to the secondary option (in this case heavy Hellblasters or plasDevs). Until that time the plas devastators would be putting out more efficient firepower without stratagem support than the heavy Hellblasters which is why I'd choose to take them. Hope that makes sense
I would think that the Devs can be more efficient if you consider ablative wounds. a plasma dev squad can have 4 cannons with d3 shots at 36", a combi plasma with 1 at 24", and 5 additional wound soaking bodys that can still shoot bolters at 24". You have to kill half the squad before you even get to the plasma, so the squad itself isnt lossing effectiveness until its halfway gone. Alternatively hellblasters have slightly shorter range at 30", not a big deal, but 9 shots vs devs 7-8 average shots, and each loss effects the squads damage output linearly. If you can get the hellblasters into double tap range they become much stronger, but 15" can be harder said than done.
Personally when i run my devs i put an apothecary and azreal near them and just let then do their thing. They make an excellent center of line area of denial, and are quite effective.
Azuza001 wrote: I would think that the Devs can be more efficient if you consider ablative wounds. a plasma dev squad can have 4 cannons with d3 shots at 36", a combi plasma with 1 at 24", and 5 additional wound soaking bodys that can still shoot bolters at 24". You have to kill half the squad before you even get to the plasma, so the squad itself isnt lossing effectiveness until its halfway gone. Alternatively hellblasters have slightly shorter range at 30", not a big deal, but 9 shots vs devs 7-8 average shots, and each loss effects the squads damage output linearly. If you can get the hellblasters into double tap range they become much stronger, but 15" can be harder said than done.
Personally when i run my devs i put an apothecary and azreal near them and just let then do their thing. They make an excellent center of line area of denial, and are quite effective.
We're comparing the plasDevs to Hellblasters with heavy incinerators so they've got the same range and the Hellblasters will always have less shots per model (though better strength and AP).
I almost always run a 10-man unit of standard Hellblasters with Az, a Lieutenant, and an Ancient. I think you'll find you get much more milage out of an Ancient than the Apothecary, especially in your case with single wound models like Devastators. The Ancient isn't limited to one model a turn in the same way an Apothecary is, so if my 10 Hellblasters get nuked off the board, 5 of them are going to go down shooting with absolutely no reason not to overcharge - not to mention the same applies to whatever else is in the 6" buff bubble provided by my characters.
Didnt realize it was heavy incinerators, but i stand by my logic. An ancient doesnt do anything until your losing strength, its burst damage vs sustained with the apothecary. When your removing bolter guys on the dev squad them getting free shots isnt a big deal. I agree a lieutenant is a good idea as well.
I have seen the heavy incinerators multiple times in semi competitive and competitive games, and even the owner of the models in these games has agreed they never do anything that normal couldnt have done better.
Well i they have to chew through 20 wounds t8 first of the bastion while the helblasters are shooting from it. after that Azrael bubble takes over. This is the list i will probably be using:
Just had a game with my Dark Angels, playing against my friend's pure Tempestus Scions list. We played an ITC mission (#1 from the Champions packet I believe), with 2000 point lists.
My list:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment:
Azrael
Ezekiel
Ravenwing Talonmaster: Heavenfall Blade
5 Scouts with knives
5 Scouts with 4 bolters and a knife
5 Scouts with 3 bolters, 1 Heavy Bolter, and a knife
Company Ancient
6 Scout Bikes with a Storm Bolter on the Sarge
Ravenwing Darkshroud
Ravenwing Dark Talon
Spearhead Detachment:
Lieutenant with MC bolter
8 Hellblasters with regular Incinerators
7 Hellblasters with regular Incinerators
8 Devastators with 2 Lascannons and 2 Missile Launchers, Armorium Cherub
I don't know my opponent's list composition exactly, but I do know it was 2 battalions with 3 Tempestor Primes with command rods, a Lord Commissar with the relic pistol (one of the Tempestors had Kurov's Aquila), 3 Taurox Primes (all had HSVG, Storm Bolters and Gatling Cannons) and a large number of Tempestus Scion squads, of which some had just the regular hotshot lasguns, some had Volley Guns, and some had Plasma guns.
He won the roll-off, but elected to go second. I flew my Dark Talon over into his backfield using the Speed of the Raven stratagem and dropped my stasis bomb on one of his squads. I got 9 4+'s with the bomb, which was crazy good. I then polished off the last guy and took a few wounds off of one of the Tauroxes with the plane's shooting. My Devastators finished the Taurox, but due to everything of my opponent's being out of line of sight that was all the shooting I could do. My Scout Bikes were deployed in my backfield to prevent deep strikes, which ended up being key. My opponent brought in the Tempestor with the Aquila, and despite having about 3 squads shooting at my Dark Talon (and using Grenadiers on one of them to throw 9 krak grenades), he only did 7 wounds to it (thanks to some very lucky rolls on my part and some really crappy rolls on his part). In the second turn, it went pretty much like the first except that I didn't actually kill anything. I took both remaining Tauroxes down to 3 wounds apiece and knocked one Scion squad down to a single guy (thanks to the +1 save strat), but nothing actually got fully killed. My opponent finally dropped my plane and managed to place a couple of dropping squads on some objectives and killing a single Hellblaster (who did not get to shoot back). On turn 3 I killed both Tauroxes and a Scion squad. He dropped his remaining Scions, careful to stay outside of Auspex Scan range. This actually hurt him a lot, as he was way too conservative with his drops and thus didn't really threaten my units. He did kill two of my Scout squads and actually had held more objectives than me for 2 turns. From then on it just went downhill for him, with me just hunting down and killing Scion squads and thanks to atrocious dice rolling on his part he didn't kill a single other model for the rest of the game. I ended up winning fairly handily (my opponent conceded in turn 5). It was mainly a bad matchup for my opponent, with all of my Azrael saves and the -1 from the Darkshroud just hosing his shooting. As I said, his dice were ice cold all game long, so that didn't help him either. I'm definitely liking the Azrael gunline as far as being competitive, but it is actually fairly boring and dull to play. I have some mobile stuff in the form of Scout Bikes and the Talonmaster, but the bikes mainly ended up doing backfield screening duty. They were key to preventing those Scions from dropping in behind my lines, which really would have thrown a monkey wrench into my plans.
Based on this game and others I've played with similar lists, I can recommend the following things to all competitive Dark Angels players:
Always, always, always advance with the Darkshroud. Remember, you don't have to use its full movement even if you advance, but the 4++ save on it will keep it alive longer, and let's be honest that Heavy Bolter it carries rarely makes a difference.
Speed of the Raven is probably the second best Dark Angels stratagem in the book (after WotDA). Being able to advance with a Talonmaster and still shoot and charge gives him a massive threat range, and on the first turn you can get just about anywhere on the board with a Dark Talon.
Get yourself some Scout Bikes. Seriously, do it! They are an extremely versatile unit, good for screening the important stuff, grabbing objectives, and shooting your opponent's screen units (6 with a Storm Bolter on the Sarge put out 40 S4 shots at 12" or less). The only negative to them is the lack of the Ravenwing keyword.
Hellblasters can be their own screen against reserve units. The threat of Auspex Scan from such a powerful unit will make your opponent think twice about dropping close to them. Of course, if your opponent is figuring on charging them with something that was already on the board (like a Knight Gallant), you will want to have something in between, but even if they get charged, they can fall back and shoot with the Intractible stratagem (if they survive the attack).
Ezekiel is pretty good to have, and worth taking over a standard Librarian for the extra denial if you have the extra points. I like to take Aversion and Trephination as my powers, although Trephination is kind of bad against some opponents (with good Leadership).
Devastators make a great supplement to Hellblasters for engaging big stuff, and they should always take a Cherub if possible. Lascannons are probably best, but Missile Launchers give some good versatility in addition to granting access to the Flakk Missile stratagem, which when coupled with the Cherub can be a great way to deal with pesky flying enemies (like Flyrants or Riptides).
It's not a terrible idea to give a Heavy Bolter to at least one Scout squad, as they can then use the Hellfire shells strat. Good for dealing mortal wounds to something big that Scouts would otherwise struggle to hurt, or for punching through invul saves.
SpaceJS wrote: nice writeup, i just do not see the advantage over scout bikers as opposed to normal scouts. i rather use normal ravenwing bikers for that.
Scout bikes have pros and cons over normal Ravenwing. They are slightly cheaper and have slightly more firepower (except for expensive special weapons on standard Ravenwing), but have a worse save and don't get the Ravenwing keyword, meaning no Speed of the Raven or Jink on them. I've found the scout bikes to be more efficient than Ravenwing, but YMMV I guess.
I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LCML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?
I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.
TheNightWillEnd wrote: I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LCML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?
I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.
i use a mortis contemptor with two twin lasses for this a bit better survivability
TheNightWillEnd wrote: I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LCML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?
I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.
It would be a bit harder for me to make that work, as most events I go to use ITC terrain rules (meaning bottom floor of ruins blocks line of sight). Not impossible, but difficult. I do like the way you think, though, and I too am trying very hard to find a niche for dreads in my comp lists.
TheNightWillEnd wrote: I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LCML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?
I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.
i use a mortis contemptor with two twin lasses for this a bit better survivability
Yeah, but also a much bigger point sink and it degrades. I think I'd rather have 8 wounds that hits on the re-rollable 2s all game than 10 that only has that until it loses 5. I am interested in mortis options though. I also think this is the reason the deredeo is popping up in DA comp lists.
TheNightWillEnd wrote: I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LCML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?
I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.
i use a mortis contemptor with two twin lasses for this a bit better survivability
Yeah, but also a much bigger point sink and it degrades. I think I'd rather have 8 wounds that hits on the re-rollable 2s all game than 10 that only has that until it loses 5. I am interested in mortis options though. I also think this is the reason the deredeo is popping up in DA comp lists.
true, it does have a 5++ and i also use a techmarine on bike to support my dreads. my opponent also often has other units to worry about. I did order a Sicaran venator as a replasment as well to see how that goes.
TheNightWillEnd wrote: I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LCML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?
I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.
Not so much... if you're willing to overcharge and spend WotDA, the HPC+ML is a better build, in average. Heck, even the 2x Twin AC is a bit better in average as well. The Twin LC Mortis has more or less the same performance.
But, if I'd use any kind of Dreadnought for AT purposes, I'd look no further than Contemptor Mortis or the Leviathan. Both are more efficient than the normal dreads
TheNightWillEnd wrote: I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LCML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?
I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.
Not so much... if you're willing to overcharge and spend WotDA, the HPC+ML is a better build, in average. Heck, even the 2x Twin AC is a bit better in average as well. The Twin LC Mortis has more or less the same performance.
But, if I'd use any kind of Dreadnought for AT purposes, I'd look no further than Contemptor Mortis or the Leviathan. Both are more efficient than the normal dreads
Yeah, but I feel like there's always going to be a better WotDA candidate that particular phase in a DA army. You don't want to burn that every turn for one PC.
Definitely will think about the Contemptor Mortis or Leviathan, but I do think the twin LC/ML Ven Dread is the best non-FW option for ranged AT.
I have a friend who uses a twin-las / CML contemptor Mortis in his RG list and it performs really well. I tend to get all my anti-tank from various forms of plas in my DA force. I'll be trying a plas/ML Deredeo later this week as a secondary option for WotDA - will let you know how it goes
Yeah, but I feel like there's always going to be a better WotDA candidate that particular phase in a DA army. You don't want to burn that every turn for one PC.
Definitely will think about the Contemptor Mortis or Leviathan, but I do think the twin LC/ML Ven Dread is the best non-FW option for ranged AT.
(Forgot about the plasma Deredeo - it's really good)
non-FW Dreads... yeah, I'd say you're right. Plasma Redemptor is close to its performance also, but falls short after losing some Wounds
TheNightWillEnd wrote: I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LCML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?
I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.
i use a mortis contemptor with two twin lasses for this a bit better survivability
Yeah, but also a much bigger point sink and it degrades. I think I'd rather have 8 wounds that hits on the re-rollable 2s all game than 10 that only has that until it loses 5. I am interested in mortis options though. I also think this is the reason the deredeo is popping up in DA comp lists.
Does it matter if actually degrades? By the time its BS gets that low a regular Dread would be dead.
TheNightWillEnd wrote: I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LCML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?
I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.
i use a mortis contemptor with two twin lasses for this a bit better survivability
Yeah, but also a much bigger point sink and it degrades. I think I'd rather have 8 wounds that hits on the re-rollable 2s all game than 10 that only has that until it loses 5. I am interested in mortis options though. I also think this is the reason the deredeo is popping up in DA comp lists.
Does it matter if actually degrades? By the time its BS gets that low a regular Dread would be dead.
TheNightWillEnd wrote: I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LCML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?
I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.
i use a mortis contemptor with two twin lasses for this a bit better survivability
Yeah, but also a much bigger point sink and it degrades. I think I'd rather have 8 wounds that hits on the re-rollable 2s all game than 10 that only has that until it loses 5. I am interested in mortis options though. I also think this is the reason the deredeo is popping up in DA comp lists.
Does it matter if actually degrades? By the time its BS gets that low a regular Dread would be dead.
When the Contemptor has lost 5 wounds and is hitting on 3s, the Ven Dread still has 3 wounds left and hitting on 2s. I don't have the FW points in front of me.
How much more are you paying for the extra 2 wounds and the 5++?
TheNightWillEnd wrote: I haven't tried this yet, but it seems like from a mathhammer perspective, a ven dread with twin LCML has got to be one of the more efficient AT options for 165 points, right?
I mean, it's small enough to tuck into some advantageous level of ruins somewhere and as long as it doesn't move, grim resolve is giving it re-rollable 2+ shooting, so it's most likely to punch through with 2 of the 3 shots for D6 damage each. And, it's likely to get cover in there and thereby give it a 2+ 6+ FNP all game too and doesn't degrade.
i use a mortis contemptor with two twin lasses for this a bit better survivability
Yeah, but also a much bigger point sink and it degrades. I think I'd rather have 8 wounds that hits on the re-rollable 2s all game than 10 that only has that until it loses 5. I am interested in mortis options though. I also think this is the reason the deredeo is popping up in DA comp lists.
Does it matter if actually degrades? By the time its BS gets that low a regular Dread would be dead.
When the Contemptor has lost 5 wounds and is hitting on 3s, the Ven Dread still has 3 wounds left and hitting on 2s. I don't have the FW points in front of me.
How much more are you paying for the extra 2 wounds and the 5++?
Not much more, actually.
And by the time that Ven Dread loses those three wounds the Mortis is still contributing to the fight.
axisofentropy wrote: The 8 Wound dreads don't degrade and that's really valuable.
By how much though? By the time the Ven Dread is at BS3+, the regular one or Ven one is almost dead. Is three wounds before dying at BS2+ worth more than actually being more survivable? Chances are at 3 wounde the opponent is gonna just commit at that point and just kill it.
axisofentropy wrote: The 8 Wound dreads don't degrade and that's really valuable.
Only if they survive, and it's not too hard to put 8 wounds on a dread these days with all the Knights and big melee blobs (Bloodletters, Tzaangors with VotLW, etc.) running amok. I really, really want Dreads to be good as I have several of them, but I just don't think they are top tier competitive.
Any tips for dealing with Knights on turn 1? (/ other T8 high invuln units). It generally takes my Hellblasters a turn to get into effective range and normally I can weather the storm for a turn with Az and -1 to hit, and then hit hard when my Inceptors come in, but I've really started to feel the need to put the hurt on earlier. Is simple lascannons the way to go? Or am I better off dealing with them some other way?
Brother Payne wrote: Any tips for dealing with Knights on turn 1? (/ other T8 high invuln units). It generally takes my Hellblasters a turn to get into effective range and normally I can weather the storm for a turn with Az and -1 to hit, and then hit hard when my Inceptors come in, but I've really started to feel the need to put the hurt on earlier. Is simple lascannons the way to go? Or am I better off dealing with them some other way?
I decided to get a sicaran venator, very good value for the amount of damage it can do. Besides that engaging it into CC with a contemptor dread also works really well but Las cannons is also a option.
Brother Payne wrote: Any tips for dealing with Knights on turn 1? (/ other T8 high invuln units). It generally takes my Hellblasters a turn to get into effective range and normally I can weather the storm for a turn with Az and -1 to hit, and then hit hard when my Inceptors come in, but I've really started to feel the need to put the hurt on earlier. Is simple lascannons the way to go? Or am I better off dealing with them some other way?
Brother Payne wrote: Any tips for dealing with Knights on turn 1? (/ other T8 high invuln units). It generally takes my Hellblasters a turn to get into effective range and normally I can weather the storm for a turn with Az and -1 to hit, and then hit hard when my Inceptors come in, but I've really started to feel the need to put the hurt on earlier. Is simple lascannons the way to go? Or am I better off dealing with them some other way?
It's hard to go wrong with 4 Lascannon Devs, with a cherub in there to give you a 5th shot on one turn. You can at least force your Knight opponent to spend the CP to use Rotate Ion Shields, meaning he won't have those CP later unless he also has a Guard CP battery in his list. Otherwise, the above posters have a great idea in just bringing a Knight of your own, preferably a Castellan. You'll have to cut stuff out to fit a 600-point model in, but it can be done.
I was also toying with the idea of a castellan but it feels a bit like an "if you can't beat them, join them" cop out. I think I'll start with las devs (simply because I have them readily available), but I actually really like the idea of a venator. Even if you roll low on damage that -1 to hit modifier is a big deal and when stacked with a darkshroud and maybe even aversion, that could render a knight largely useless. I'll see if I can proxy one and give it a go
Brother Payne wrote: I was also toying with the idea of a castellan but it feels a bit like an "if you can't beat them, join them" cop out. I think I'll start with las devs (simply because I have them readily available), but I actually really like the idea of a venator. Even if you roll low on damage that -1 to hit modifier is a big deal and when stacked with a darkshroud and maybe even aversion, that could render a knight largely useless. I'll see if I can proxy one and give it a go
yeah that is my idea to get at those baneblades, i am also adding a librarian with jump pack and the shroud of hero's to add mind wipe and aversion on the baneblade.
My latest list idea is to use a House Raven Crusader to save points over a Castellan (plus the fact that I don't currently own a Castellan...), along with the standard Azrael Hellblaster blob. To wrangle one more command point, I actually replaced a unit of Hellblasters with some Plasma Inceptors so that I could get an Outrider along with the Battalion and SHA. Here's my first rough idea for the list:
Basically the Knight sits back and blasts things while the Azrael blob slowly moves up the board. The Inceptors will usually drop near Az for the rerolls on their guns, but have the option to drop further away if I really need something dead that is too far away from him. One thing I have considered is taking the Rapid Fire Battle Cannon instead of the Thermal, but it is more points and doesn't have the same armor penetration ability, although it does get twice as many shots on average, so...eh. I'd have to drop a Scout Bike to make that happen, but that is definitely doable. I also have to live without the banner, but there's nothing I can easily trade out to fit an Ancient in there unfortunately.
So, recently a few of my friends and I started talking about a potential hidden gem from Index: Imperium 1. That being the Rhino Primaris. It gives a unit within 12" +1 to their hit rolls, which due to how modifiers are applied completely negates the chance of overcharged plasma blowing up your guys. That is very spicy! In addition, it has a one-off d3 shot S10 AP-4 d6 damage shooting attack that can hit things out of LOS, and it has a twin plasma gun as its armament and a small transport capacity (could hide a scout unit and/or character inside to reduce drops). The only downside to me is its hefty points cost (170), which is probably too much for what it does. Still, it might be worth considering.
The +1 to hit only targets any <CHAPTER> unit, which as per what it says in the Index means that keyword is replaced by <DARK ANGELS>, so it only works for Dark Angels units. It does say unit and doesn't specify infantry or anything, so it can buff anything you need it to. It's a pretty nifty buff for some overcharging Inceptors or Hellblasters or even a Land Speeder Vengeance (not that those are that good). And that d3 shot Orbital Array attack (that I like to call Rods From God) is great for picking off a vehicle that is hiding out of LOS.
That +1 go hit can also offset Altioc, making it viable to overcharge again. I used one in a apoc battle once and it did a decent job. Its is more difficult to work into a 2k pt list though unless you build around it a little.
Also unless you hide it it will get focused, and it is not hard to kill.
So I was looking throught the ETC lists and saw a mere four lists with any Dark Angels in them at all, and only one of those was pure DA. One list was mostly Custodes bikers with a DA battalion consisting of a Lieutenant, Librarian, and 3 Scout squads. Another was Imperial Soup with a funny detachment consisting of Sammael in Sableclaw, a Talonmaster, and Bjorn the Fell-handed. Not sure what that one was about. The third one I saw was the pure DA one, with the standard Azrael+LT+Darkshroud+Ancient with two big units of Hellblasters, along with 3 Dark Talons. The last one was Sammy, a Talonmaster, and 3 Scout squads along with 3 Imperial Knights (Castellan, Crusader, and Gallant). That honestly was the one that piqued my interest the most, as that is a combo I'm considering running at some point.
The pure list is being run by Christophe Baudar of Team Belgium. I was reluctant to post full lists here because I don't want to get in trouble, but at the same time I thought they might stimulate a bit of discussion, hence why I mentioned them in my earlier post.
And you should get yourself at least one Dark Talon. Those things are money! I wasn't sold on them at first after the price hike, but really they were actually broken at 160 points. They are very good at making hordes disappear. Baudar's list has 3 Dark Talons and a unit of Aggressors for horde clearing, and that's probably all he needs really.
2 Dark Angels 3-0 at BAO. Check your BCP app for the list. None are pure the the first place list is primarily DA with all the good stuff. Talon Master and Sammy, Dark Talons and a Shroud. Small Bike squad. BA Battalion. Good, smart list. Uses the BA to do what DA cant and that combat. The rest shoot. Will be interesting to see how it deals with Tau/Dark Eld and Knights in the next couple of games.
The other list are dreads. Interesting list not sure if its something i would run.. but it seems to be working.
Need to look at some of the lists both of these guys beat.
Shaun is running a 4 dread spearhead with a Catachan Batt and is so far 4-0.
He has beat Dark Eldar, Eldar, Necrons and an Assault Knight list consisting of a Valiant.
Very interesting results.
Looks like he might have to play an all Knight list next if the rankings stay the same
I really hope that sometime this year GW fixes the game so that Imperial armies can be contenders, staying pure faction. Drives me nuts that you need to do this soup stuff to do well.
djones520 wrote: I really hope that sometime this year GW fixes the game so that Imperial armies can be contenders, staying pure faction. Drives me nuts that you need to do this soup stuff to do well.
soup is a thing. Not saying im happy about it.. however i dont see anything pure winning tournaments for the most part anymore. However ive embraced it as reality. I think Shauns list does a decent job of going almost all DA.
What interests me is if he used the DW strat and Deep struck any of those Levis.
I also think Shaun has dodged a bit of a bullet here. Both Knight lists havent fielded a single Castellian..
I have a friend who is really struggling with his DA lists to a point where he's almost giving up on the game and I'd like to give him a hand.
He is in a tough spot, he doesn't have the energy nor the allowance to really invest in new models at the moment and both me and another friend that usually play with him have quite a good collection already (Death Guard, Chaos Demons and Necrons).
What I know he has:
- Assorted Tacticals, mostly with plasma guns and missile launchers.
- Most HQ options on Power Armour.
- A few Ravenwing Bike Squads, we usually let him proxy weapon loadouts.
- Black Knights on Bikes, he loves these guys.
- A couple HQ choices on Bikes.
- Two Land speeders.
- Sammael on his Plasma bike
- 2 Rhinos/Razorbacks
- A few Deathwing Termies
- A few of the CC Deathwing Termies
- A few scouts
I'm looking for general direction on how to help him out. I think he feels very frustrated by losing expensive models to Smite and other kinds of Mortal wounds. Is there anything in DA arsenal that can help with that?
Last saturday we where playing a 1000pts narrative event and he got trashed by a mobile Eldar List and a Chaos Demon list with 4 Demon Princes wreaking havoc with their smites. He had a large bike force but I feel like he must be mishandling the bikers as when I field them they feel great. Any advice and pointers would be welcome, I'll go ahead and dig on the thread for tips. Thanks in advance.
I have a friend who is really struggling with his DA lists to a point where he's almost giving up on the game and I'd like to give him a hand.
He is in a tough spot, he doesn't have the energy nor the allowance to really invest in new models at the moment and both me and another friend that usually play with him have quite a good collection already (Death Guard, Chaos Demons and Necrons).
What I know he has:
- Assorted Tacticals, mostly with plasma guns and missile launchers.
- Most HQ options on Power Armour.
- A few Ravenwing Bike Squads, we usually let him proxy weapon loadouts.
- Black Knights on Bikes, he loves these guys.
- A couple HQ choices on Bikes.
- Two Land speeders.
- Sammael on his Plasma bike
- 2 Rhinos/Razorbacks
- A few Deathwing Termies
- A few of the CC Deathwing Termies
- A few scouts
I'm looking for general direction on how to help him out. I think he feels very frustrated by losing expensive models to Smite and other kinds of Mortal wounds. Is there anything in DA arsenal that can help with that?
Last saturday we where playing a 1000pts narrative event and he got trashed by a mobile Eldar List and a Chaos Demon list with 4 Demon Princes wreaking havoc with their smites. He had a large bike force but I feel like he must be mishandling the bikers as when I field them they feel great. Any advice and pointers would be welcome, I'll go ahead and dig on the thread for tips. Thanks in advance.
- First things first: you guys shouldn't use top-level lists like those vs a guy without his prime assortment of lists as well. But don't go too easy on him; just use TAC lists hwile he struggles to find what works best. When he gets the good things DA can offer, you guys can level up the challenge.
- That sorted out, suggest him to make one of the Land Speeders a Ravenwing Talonmaster and the other one Sammael on Sableclaw. These 2 are character with less than 10W (so they're protected if behind other units), are very fast, pack quite the punch and help his army a lot (the former allows your units to re-roll 1s to wounds AND ignore enemy cover; the latter re-roll 's to hit or all hits if the beneficiary is Ravenwing as well).
- Termies aren't really good in this edition. The best use for them is to deep strike behind enemy lines to secure an objective/linebreaker.
- The missile launcher Tacticals could become a unit of Devastators, while the Plasma ones could work as Company Veterans (really good for their price); Tactical Marines per se are pretty bad. Tell him to buy enough Scouts to have at least 3x5 of them.
Stick the Razorbacks with the Plasma Vets as their method of transportation (give them the Assault Cannon turrets).
- Ravenwing Bikes are good, if somewhat a bit costly. If you give them plasmaguns, they perform better than Black Knights. They are good with Flamers as well (can even move, turboboost and fire without needing the stratagem). On the same tone, Black Knights are good as well, but shouldn't be the core of his army (too costly).
- Librarian on Bike is a very good HQ. Aversion is usually regarded as the best power, while both Mind Wipe and Trephination work well if you stack Leadership-reducing factors.
If he has Ezekiel among the on-foot HQs (Turmiel from the Dark Vengeance box works as well), he's pretty good too.
- If he has Azrael (or the Balthasar rom the Dark Vengeance box), he's the prime option for Warlord. Put everything that likes to fire from afar around him. If he has a Lieutenant (there's no particular model for that - he needs to convert one), stick him around the blob too.
Those would be my tips for him. Oh, and whenever possible, tell him to get a Dark Talon, a Chapter Ancient (again, have to be converted) and 2x10 Hellblasters
I have a friend who is really struggling with his DA lists to a point where he's almost giving up on the game and I'd like to give him a hand.
He is in a tough spot, he doesn't have the energy nor the allowance to really invest in new models at the moment and both me and another friend that usually play with him have quite a good collection already (Death Guard, Chaos Demons and Necrons).
What I know he has:
- Assorted Tacticals, mostly with plasma guns and missile launchers.
- Most HQ options on Power Armour.
- A few Ravenwing Bike Squads, we usually let him proxy weapon loadouts.
- Black Knights on Bikes, he loves these guys.
- A couple HQ choices on Bikes.
- Two Land speeders.
- Sammael on his Plasma bike
- 2 Rhinos/Razorbacks
- A few Deathwing Termies
- A few of the CC Deathwing Termies
- A few scouts
I'm looking for general direction on how to help him out. I think he feels very frustrated by losing expensive models to Smite and other kinds of Mortal wounds. Is there anything in DA arsenal that can help with that?
Last saturday we where playing a 1000pts narrative event and he got trashed by a mobile Eldar List and a Chaos Demon list with 4 Demon Princes wreaking havoc with their smites. He had a large bike force but I feel like he must be mishandling the bikers as when I field them they feel great. Any advice and pointers would be welcome, I'll go ahead and dig on the thread for tips. Thanks in advance.
- First things first: you guys shouldn't use top-level lists like those vs a guy without his prime assortment of lists as well. But don't go too easy on him; just use TAC lists hwile he struggles to find what works best. When he gets the good things DA can offer, you guys can level up the challenge.
- That sorted out, suggest him to make one of the Land Speeders a Ravenwing Talonmaster and the other one Sammael on Sableclaw. These 2 are character with less than 10W (so they're protected if behind other units), are very fast, pack quite the punch and help his army a lot (the former allows your units to re-roll 1s to wounds AND ignore enemy cover; the latter re-roll 's to hit or all hits if the beneficiary is Ravenwing as well).
- Termies aren't really good in this edition. The best use for them is to deep strike behind enemy lines to secure an objective/linebreaker.
- The missile launcher Tacticals could become a unit of Devastators, while the Plasma ones could work as Company Veterans (really good for their price); Tactical Marines per se are pretty bad. Tell him to buy enough Scouts to have at least 3x5 of them.
Stick the Razorbacks with the Plasma Vets as their method of transportation (give them the Assault Cannon turrets).
- Ravenwing Bikes are good, if somewhat a bit costly. If you give them plasmaguns, they perform better than Black Knights. They are good with Flamers as well (can even move, turboboost and fire without needing the stratagem). On the same tone, Black Knights are good as well, but shouldn't be the core of his army (too costly).
- Librarian on Bike is a very good HQ. Aversion is usually regarded as the best power, while both Mind Wipe and Trephination work well if you stack Leadership-reducing factors.
If he has Ezekiel among the on-foot HQs (Turmiel from the Dark Vengeance box works as well), he's pretty good too.
- If he has Azrael (or the Balthasar rom the Dark Vengeance box), he's the prime option for Warlord. Put everything that likes to fire from afar around him. If he has a Lieutenant (there's no particular model for that - he needs to convert one), stick him around the blob too.
Those would be my tips for him. Oh, and whenever possible, tell him to get a Dark Talon, a Chapter Ancient (again, have to be converted) and 2x10 Hellblasters
Thank you! A very comprehensive summary and enough for me to dig my teeth into (I also play wolves so...)
We don't usually run competitive broken lists against him, but he complains too much about new models (DG drones and new characters particularly) as it feels like they are made more powerful just to push models out the shelves. To top that Marines are a good matchup for my necrons (neg AP is always good against marines) so he can be put into a difficult situation.
I do think that there isa lot of value on his army he just needs to find the potential and unlock it. Thanks again, I'll report back here with the results!
Ravenwing Black Knights can do some great work. I took a large squadron as the core of my army at a 1250 tourney and they did well in all but one game. Run them with Sammael and a Talonmaster and use Speed of the Raven and Weapons from the Dark Age stratagems along with supercharging when the target warrants it.
The only times I've used Black Knights they have disappointed me. Usually they end up eating a bunch of Smites or something, which could mean I'm playing them wrong. They just don't seem to be worth 46 points per model to me. Maybe I'm being too aggressive with them, but honestly isn't that what they are for (really aggressive moves using Speed of the Raven)? I've had much better luck with Scout Bikes and plasma Inceptors in my Fast Attack slots. At least the Inceptors can hide in reserves until a target presents itself (like after the enemy screening units have been cleared).
ZergSmasher wrote: The only times I've used Black Knights they have disappointed me. Usually they end up eating a bunch of Smites or something, which could mean I'm playing them wrong. They just don't seem to be worth 46 points per model to me. Maybe I'm being too aggressive with them, but honestly isn't that what they are for (really aggressive moves using Speed of the Raven)? I've had much better luck with Scout Bikes and plasma Inceptors in my Fast Attack slots. At least the Inceptors can hide in reserves until a target presents itself (like after the enemy screening units have been cleared).
If you take away one plasma exterminator from plasma inceptors they cost almost the same as black knight ~ 42 points for plasme d3 shots at the same 18 inch range.
Black knights cost only 4 points more for almost the same stats except they can move up to 20 inches gain an invulnerable save against shooting,and have better melee, i think they are well worth 46 points
I think the main problem is that they are on the table turn one, making them vulnerable to long range attacks if you dont hide them somewhere
Dark talons could be a good way of eating smites if you keep them close to enemy psykers
Agree that turn 1 vulnerability is an issue until you get moving and Jinking. I also agree that Smite spam etc is a problem. Orks are also an issue. Stuff in power armour and high wounds targets, though, are prime prey for Black Knights. A Dark Talon helps with crowd control, as does the Talon Master.
I really like their mobility, though, which can catch opponents off guard.
While it might be nice to have more Darkshroud coverage, I think it is a case of diminishing returns. Having a second Darkshroud means I have that many points less of stuff that actually kills things. I'd rather not lose that much firepower just to have a little more protection. One is usually sufficient.
Against any decent opponent and with average terrain, the dark shroud won't last beyond the first turn. The nice thing is it will usually take more firepower to remove the dark shroud than it would to remove most of our threat units and is cheaper so it can be beneficial to add one. Adding two however will often just make the opponent ignore the dark shrouds and directly target our threats. Since we have even less firepower after diverting points to the shrouds, this is far more damaging to us.
Maelstrom808 wrote: Against any decent opponent and with average terrain, the dark shroud won't last beyond the first turn. The nice thing is it will usually take more firepower to remove the dark shroud than it would to remove most of our threat units and is cheaper so it can be beneficial to add one. Adding two however will often just make the opponent ignore the dark shrouds and directly target our threats. Since we have even less firepower after diverting points to the shrouds, this is far more damaging to us.
good point
Automatically Appended Next Post: Christopher baudar lost two games at ETC against nids and imperial knights. Even three dark talons did not help. 0-20 loss both times, i assume he got tabled which is a common issue with azrael blob.
I played several times vs nids and its just not possible to win if you run azrael blob, you get stomped on turn one or two by genestealers or by their carnifex with ridicilous amount of shots
Havent played vs knights, but they have so much firepower and stratagem to avoid degradation penalties...
I also struggle a lot against nids.
The closest I came to winning was a tie (and I forgott about a whole squad of tacticals in one of my razorbacks)
What would you field against nids?
I feel like there is just not much I can do against them.
A trygon bomb will deliver 180 S4 shots plus genestealers are running up the field.
Any advice is appreciated!
PS: what do you guys think about adding a knight to a DA army?
I painted one in the DA color scheme for 7th ed and it was a lot of fun.
Hello guys, new to the forums and the tabletop aswell.
So I'm writing this post to know what more experienced players think about our stratagem "The Lion and the Wolf".
I figured that given how many knights and high toughness targets (baneblades) are in my local meta, getting two smashcaptains would go a long way.
On the matter of adding a Space Wolves detachment, I thought about the 3 HQ one, the wolf lord (captain), along with 2 rune priests (vanilla librarians). The rune priest also have access to an equivalent of aversion, which could also let me stack them somewhat avoiding the psichic focus rule.
Anyways , I'd love some insight on the list as I'm planning on taking it to my next in-house tournament. Hope you guys can help me.
Stationmoon wrote: Hello guys, new to the forums and the tabletop aswell.
So I'm writing this post to know what more experienced players think about our stratagem "The Lion and the Wolf".
I figured that given how many knights and high toughness targets (baneblades) are in my local meta, getting two smashcaptains would go a long way.
On the matter of adding a Space Wolves detachment, I thought about the 3 HQ one, the wolf lord (captain), along with 2 rune priests (vanilla librarians). The rune priest also have access to an equivalent of aversion, which could also let me stack them somewhat avoiding the psichic focus rule.
Anyways , I'd love some insight on the list as I'm planning on taking it to my next in-house tournament. Hope you guys can help me.
To me it seems that the main threat in this list is 9 hellblasters. Problem is that this list will struggle against mass infantry, for example tyranids with several carnifex or drukhari which will just screw you over by stealing our WoFTDA strategaem.Not much you can do about IG either, so it basically depends on your local meta.By the way, it doesn't make much sense to take many psykers since each consecutive smite will come with a penalty, so no point in taking ezekiel or those rune priests.
Ezekiel is a great looking model, but i wouldnt rely on him since our powers are not really that great and even if you commit to them, its better to take a libby with jump pack/bike to deliver those powers wherever you want
I don't find Ezekiel to really be worth the price of admission. The ability is kinda cool but you're not gonna want to build around it. More mileage would be found by a generic Librarian with a relic.
Librarians underperform terribly though thanks to limited tables. Rule-of-1-cast really wouldn't matter if we at least had more spells to cast.
I have a friend who is really struggling with his DA lists to a point where he's almost giving up on the game and I'd like to give him a hand.
He is in a tough spot, he doesn't have the energy nor the allowance to really invest in new models at the moment and both me and another friend that usually play with him have quite a good collection already (Death Guard, Chaos Demons and Necrons).
What I know he has:
- Assorted Tacticals, mostly with plasma guns and missile launchers.
- Most HQ options on Power Armour.
- A few Ravenwing Bike Squads, we usually let him proxy weapon loadouts.
- Black Knights on Bikes, he loves these guys.
- A couple HQ choices on Bikes.
- Two Land speeders.
- Sammael on his Plasma bike
- 2 Rhinos/Razorbacks
- A few Deathwing Termies
- A few of the CC Deathwing Termies
- A few scouts
I'm looking for general direction on how to help him out. I think he feels very frustrated by losing expensive models to Smite and other kinds of Mortal wounds. Is there anything in DA arsenal that can help with that?
Last saturday we where playing a 1000pts narrative event and he got trashed by a mobile Eldar List and a Chaos Demon list with 4 Demon Princes wreaking havoc with their smites. He had a large bike force but I feel like he must be mishandling the bikers as when I field them they feel great. Any advice and pointers would be welcome, I'll go ahead and dig on the thread for tips. Thanks in advance.
maybe you guys should start using the new beta rules for starters so stuff like 4 demon princes does not happen anymore, second any marines list will struggle in low point matches as it is a elite army. try not to go below 1750 with it
Aeri wrote: I also struggle a lot against nids.
The closest I came to winning was a tie (and I forgott about a whole squad of tacticals in one of my razorbacks)
What would you field against nids?
I feel like there is just not much I can do against them.
A trygon bomb will deliver 180 S4 shots plus genestealers are running up the field.
Any advice is appreciated!
PS: what do you guys think about adding a knight to a DA army?
I painted one in the DA color scheme for 7th ed and it was a lot of fun.
Nids are a tricky opponent for anyone, but like most other armies DA can address them. For horde control, Talonmasters and Sammy in Sableclaw are both pretty nice. 2-3 Dark Talons can give pretty good horde control as well. Plus we have the old standby Twin Asscan Razorback and Aggressors, and even the probably-not-worth-its-points Repulsor. If what you are having trouble with is big bugs like Flyrants and Carnifex spam, pretty much anything with Lascannons or Missiles can rough them up pretty good. Plus our old reliable Hellblasters next to Azrael can smush them bugs good. Don't put your guys in a position where Genestealers can get an unopposed charge off, or you will have a really rough time. Keep enough space around your main blob so that they have to eat some overwatch to get to you, if that's possible. Don't hug terrain or they'll just charge you from behind it and get in scot free. Also, what is the range on the guns that come in the Trygon bomb? If it's short, just Auspex Scan them to keep the number of incoming shots down. I've never faced a Trygon before, at least not recently, and even that time it was Hormagaunts that came up with it, so no shooting.
As far as Knight allies, I just played in an RTT earlier today with Dark Angels supported by a Knight Crusader and an Astra Militarum battalion (for the CP). Knights bring some great firepower and are pretty tanky if they get their 3++ (Ion Bulwark trait with Rotate Ion Shields strat). I went 1-2, with the first game being a pretty bad defeat vs. an all-Knights opponent that went first against me, the second game being my only win, vs. AM and Space Wolves, and the third game losing by 1 point against a Guilliman list (and I wouldn't have lost that one if I had not made a couple of big mistakes, plus Guilliman made his 3++ saves like my opponent's life depended on it or something!). The Knight was a star in all 3 games, causing all kinds of pain for my opponents, and he only went down once (to the Knights guy, who tabled me). So yes, I'd say they make a great ally for Dark Angels. I recommend House Raven for the strat, but Krast isn't a terrible choice either for their relic.
Thanks for the Feedback! Just to make sure: I thought Knights can only be Freeblades in an Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment, no?
I (currently) neither have a Talonmaster or Sammy on Sableclaw (but on Corvex ), but I agree they are my best bet against hordes together with some Razorbacks.
Trygon Bombs have 18'' range I think, so there is not much you can do about except for zoning with scouts. Problem here is, that those scouts offer a free charge for genestealers, so they advance even faster :/
*************** 1 Flyer *************** Ravenwing Dark Talon - - - > 200 P
Questor Imperialis: Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 493 P *************** 1 Lord of War *************** Knight Crusader, Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer, Ironstorm missile pod, Thermal cannon, Heavy stubber - - - > 493 P
PS: I never build lists against 1 certain opponent, although at the moment I mostly face Nids ;-)
I am looking for feedback on below list. Mainly on the 4 landspeeders, which I have not seen in that many lists ....most likely for a good reason
I actually believed they have several advantages.
Durability, 6 wounds on a T5 model with 3+ and 4++ after turn 1 is fair.. and backed by a darkshoud
Mobility, 20” +d6 (reroll with sammy around)
Firepower, with the mobility they really pack a punch ...and of course adding talon master and sammy on top
And then Weapons of the old age can be used else where (compared to black knights being the tip of the spear) ...like 4 inceptors supporting the speeders in turn 2
The rest is all about screening units . Bikes and storm running flanking duty and the whirlwind creating a even more focused punch.
The reason for the librarian is two fold. One is aversion which works nicely with the darkshroud, and secondly The eye of the unseen combined with mobility, tallonmaster with heavenfall blade, sammy and mindwipe have allowed me to defeat some scary opponents in close combat. (Having all of them swing first)
For the same cost as those four Land Speeders, you could ally in a Knight Crusader. Better firepower and durability, and comparable mobility. Speeders really, really need a points drop with the next Chapter Approved; they are just not really viable at their current cost. A Typhoon costs almost as much as a Las/Missile Dreadnought, and I'd take the Dreadnought over the Speeder every single time. And Dreads aren't exactly top tier competitive right now either.
Another option for a similar job to the Land Speeder unit you've got there would be 2 Dark Talons, plus 70 points of other stuff. You could probably trim enough fat out of that list (dropping the LS Storm and the Whirlwind) to get 3 Dark Talons in an Air Wing detachment.
Believe me, I want more of our stuff to be viable. I used to really love running my Speeders back in 7th when they actually did some good work, but they just aren't worth it now, mainly due to their cost. I've got quite a few models that are doing shelf duty just because they aren't good, including 4 Speeders, some 25-30 Deathwing Terminators of various types, and several Dreads, plus some Tacticals and Assault units from back when Lion's Blade Battle Company was a thing, and none of those models are worth actually fielding, so they just collect dust. Ultimately every army has some units like that, with cool models that are utter trash to actually play with.
ZergSmasher wrote: For the same cost as those four Land Speeders, you could ally in a Knight Crusader. Better firepower and durability, and comparable mobility. Speeders really, really need a points drop with the next Chapter Approved; they are just not really viable at their current cost. A Typhoon costs almost as much as a Las/Missile Dreadnought, and I'd take the Dreadnought over the Speeder every single time. And Dreads aren't exactly top tier competitive right now either.
Another option for a similar job to the Land Speeder unit you've got there would be 2 Dark Talons, plus 70 points of other stuff. You could probably trim enough fat out of that list (dropping the LS Storm and the Whirlwind) to get 3 Dark Talons in an Air Wing detachment.
Believe me, I want more of our stuff to be viable. I used to really love running my Speeders back in 7th when they actually did some good work, but they just aren't worth it now, mainly due to their cost. I've got quite a few models that are doing shelf duty just because they aren't good, including 4 Speeders, some 25-30 Deathwing Terminators of various types, and several Dreads, plus some Tacticals and Assault units from back when Lion's Blade Battle Company was a thing, and none of those models are worth actually fielding, so they just collect dust. Ultimately every army has some units like that, with cool models that are utter trash to actually play with.
What do you think about using vulture gunships instead of dark talons?
They have several advantages that makes them a good replacement:
1. 24 inch range which sometimes might be enough to shoot something without even moving at BS3+
2. More wounds toughness
3. Costs less - 162 points
Good distraction since 40 shots is something that many opponents may fear, especially if the volture goes hover mode.
You may run them as an airwing detachment and either throw them at opponent or shoot from deployment zone, in both cases they will be a great distraction while your other forces do their stuff
ZergSmasher wrote: For the same cost as those four Land Speeders, you could ally in a Knight Crusader. Better firepower and durability, and comparable mobility. Speeders really, really need a points drop with the next Chapter Approved; they are just not really viable at their current cost. A Typhoon costs almost as much as a Las/Missile Dreadnought, and I'd take the Dreadnought over the Speeder every single time. And Dreads aren't exactly top tier competitive right now either.
Another option for a similar job to the Land Speeder unit you've got there would be 2 Dark Talons, plus 70 points of other stuff. You could probably trim enough fat out of that list (dropping the LS Storm and the Whirlwind) to get 3 Dark Talons in an Air Wing detachment.
Believe me, I want more of our stuff to be viable. I used to really love running my Speeders back in 7th when they actually did some good work, but they just aren't worth it now, mainly due to their cost. I've got quite a few models that are doing shelf duty just because they aren't good, including 4 Speeders, some 25-30 Deathwing Terminators of various types, and several Dreads, plus some Tacticals and Assault units from back when Lion's Blade Battle Company was a thing, and none of those models are worth actually fielding, so they just collect dust. Ultimately every army has some units like that, with cool models that are utter trash to actually play with.
Unfortunately I am in complete agreement. Land Speeders, with the exception of the Talonmaster and of course the Dark Shroud, just don't work. They need a points drop or perhaps something like Strafing Run to be viable. They do look nice on my shelf though. Its sad since they are fairly iconic.
I have been working really hard to try and make the Deathwing work. They can do OK in some matchups, but they fold like a cheap suit against many foes. Terminators need some serious redesign, or many of their opponent's weapons need a redesign. I don't see either happening.
Thank you for your feedback. I guess I kind of knew the answer, as I have felt the pain when I field the Landspeeder version of ravenwing. At least I have not been able to make it work. Can only hope for a small buff at some point as I really like the idea of a ravenwing landspeeder army...
I'm wondering about the Azrael blob myself, like maybe that build is a trap or something. I'm just not sure what to replace it with. Ravenwing are okay-ish, but like most bikes are too fragile vs. most things for their points. With the bikes you have the mobility to grab objectives, but no staying power to actually hold those objectives. With the Azzy deathball, you lack mobility, but you do have some staying power and a lot of firepower. The problem with it is that it is very one-dimensional and your opponent will know exactly what it does and probably good ways to limit its effectiveness. Hence why I'm saying it might be a trap. The more I try listbuilding, the more I'm considering just running more Knights and gradually replacing the DA portions of my lists...
Hopefully Chapter Approved will fix some of the problems Marines in general have. Our units are too expensive for what they do, compared to other armies. I'm just starting to lose faith a little, after my last tournament performance with Dark Angels was less than stellar. I'm still going to play in a GT with them in a couple of weeks, so we'll see what happens.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm wondering about the Azrael blob myself, like maybe that build is a trap or something. I'm just not sure what to replace it with. Ravenwing are okay-ish, but like most bikes are too fragile vs. most things for their points. With the bikes you have the mobility to grab objectives, but no staying power to actually hold those objectives. With the Azzy deathball, you lack mobility, but you do have some staying power and a lot of firepower. The problem with it is that it is very one-dimensional and your opponent will know exactly what it does and probably good ways to limit its effectiveness. Hence why I'm saying it might be a trap. The more I try listbuilding, the more I'm considering just running more Knights and gradually replacing the DA portions of my lists...
Hopefully Chapter Approved will fix some of the problems Marines in general have. Our units are too expensive for what they do, compared to other armies. I'm just starting to lose faith a little, after my last tournament performance with Dark Angels was less than stellar. I'm still going to play in a GT with them in a couple of weeks, so we'll see what happens.
After monitroring different tournament results i noticed that mostly its ravenwing list that perform well, the 3 talon 2 landspeeder combo.
Aaron Wisch has a very interesting list and it seems like it is the most you can get out of DA.
I believe blood angels smash captains and plasma inceptors can take down any heavy threat, while other part of his list does great job at horde killing as well as being mobile.
And with clever positioning, character land speeders should always be covered by other units.
As for azrael blob, while it can sit on an objective for the entire game, when playing against horde armies i noticed that its almost impossible to get a hold of any other objective. When playing against tyranids, deathguard, imperial guard, you just dont have enough bodies and eventually you get cornered, or maybe its just me doing something wrong.
I think ill try running Aaron Wish's list and check how it does in our meta
I am also becoming more inclined to think the Az blob is a trap. I think the key things for DA to leverage are plas, Dark Talons and our 3 good speeders (Sableclaw, TM, & Darkshroud). I think Aaron Wish's list does that really well and I think the Slamtallion compliments the fairly aggressive nature of those two DA detatchments too.
Although it would be fairly low on CP, I wouldn't mind trying out that list but switching the BA detatchment for Knight. Probably a House Raven Castellan, and then making the main DA detachment a battalion with Master & LT w JPs and THs, 3x scouts, 5 plas Inceptors, Darkshroud.
The issue with that list would be that it would be fairly hard to screen the Castellan from smash captains and the like so maybe a Gallant would be a better option. A Gallant with an Ironstorm missile pod would also give you enough points spare to bump the Master & LT back up to Sableclaw and a TM
Brother Payne wrote: I am also becoming more inclined to think the Az blob is a trap. I think the key things for DA to leverage are plas, Dark Talons and our 3 good speeders (Sableclaw, TM, & Darkshroud). I think Aaron Wish's list does that really well and I think the Slamtallion compliments the fairly aggressive nature of those two DA detatchments too.
Although it would be fairly low on CP, I wouldn't mind trying out that list but switching the BA detatchment for Knight. Probably a House Raven Castellan, and then making the main DA detachment a battalion with Master & LT w JPs and THs, 3x scouts, 5 plas Inceptors, Darkshroud.
The issue with that list would be that it would be fairly hard to screen the Castellan from smash captains and the like so maybe a Gallant would be a better option. A Gallant with an Ironstorm missile pod would also give you enough points spare to bump the Master & LT back up to Sableclaw and a TM
Knights might work, but thats alot of points that may go down turn one. BA captains on the other hand will be safe until you drop them, by that time dark talons will clear screens. With dark talons you can deploy your army far away from enemy shooting and possibly even survive turn one without critical losses.
Got a game in last night with my planned GT list vs. my friend's Imperial Soup list. My list was the following:
Spoiler:
Detachment 1: Battalion Detachment (Dark Angels)
Azrael (Warlord: Brilliant Strategist)
Lieutenant: MC Bolter, Chainsword, Shroud of Heroes
5 Scouts: 3x Bolter, Heavy Bolter, Pistol and Combat Knife on Sergeant
5 Scouts: 4x Bolter, Pistol and Combat Knife on Sergeant
5 Scouts: 5x Pistol and Combat Knife
Company Ancient: Chainsword
Ravenwing Darkshroud
3 Scout Bikes: Storm Bolter on Sergeant
3 Scout Bikes: no upgrades
8 Hellblasters: Plasma Incinerators
7 Hellblasters: Plasma Incinerators
Ravenwing Dark Talon
Detachment 2: Battalion Detachment (Astra Militarum: Vostroyan)
Company Commander: Kurov's Aquila, Shotgun, Chainsword
Company Commander: Shotgun, Chainsword
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Detachment 3: Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperial Knights: House Terryn)
Knight Gallant: Armor of the Sainted Ion, Warlord Trait: Landstrider
2000 points exactly
My opponent's list was the following:
Spoiler:
Detachment 1: Battalion Detachment (Adeptus Custodes):
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: Auric Aquilis
Shield-Captain in Allarus Armor: Guardian Spear
3 Custodian Guard: 3 Guardian Spears
3 Custodian Guard: 3 Guardian Spears
3 Custodian Guard: 3 Guardian Spears
5 Vertus Praetors: 5 Hurricane Bolters
5 Vertus Praetors: 5 Hurricane Bolters
Detachment 2: Battalion Detachment (Astra Militarum: Catachan)
Company Commander: (Warlord: Grand Strategist)
Company Commander: Kurov's Aquila
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Detachment 3: Patrol Detachment (Space Marines: Black Templars)
Captain: Jump Pack, MC Bolter, Teeth of Terra
5 Scouts: 4x Bolter, Pistol and Combat Knife on Sergeant
This was my first game facing the Adeptus Custodes. We played one of the new, recently updated ITC missions (which is why neither one of us had any Mortars in our infantry squads). He used some pregame stratagems as he deployed, including Victor of the Blood Games on both of his Shield-Captains, and deepstriking both units of Golden Jetbikes. Since my Aquila bearer was already on the board, I got 3 CP when he used those strats, making up for the 3 I spent pre-game (1 for Aquila, 1 for Exalted Court, 1 for Heirlooms). Our deployment map was the pointy Dawn of War one. I chose the Old School, Headhunter, and Marked for Death secondaries (MFD: both jetbike units, and two of the Custodian Guard units), and my opponent chose Old School, Recon, and Titan Slayer. I deployed my Azrael blob near the middle, with my Knight next to it. I put Guard squads near the flanks to prevent deep strike shenanigans, and deployed my Scouts in the middle of the table. My opponent put his Custodian Guard in some buildings, and deployed his own Guardsmen pretty much at the front edge of his deployment zone, with the jetbikes and Allarus captain deep striking in. I won the roll-off to go first, but my opponent siezed the initiative. He basically just moved up the board and consolidated two of his Guardsmen squads into a single one. His BT Captain got an early charge into my melee Scouts, but didn't manage to drop all of them, so he killed no units on the first turn. On my turn, I advanced the Knight toward one unit of Custodian Guard that had jumped on one of the midfield objectives. My Dark Talon flew over and dropped the stasis bomb on the big Guardsmen squad, but only killed 3 models due to poor rolling. My Scout Bikes moved up the board toward midfield objectives, and I slowly started to move the Azrael blob forward as well, advancing with the Darkshroud to give it the 4++ save from Jink. In my shooting phase, I managed to wax the big Guardsmen squad, but that was about it. My Knight used Full Tilt to charge the Custodes despite having advanced, and thanks to some lucky damage rolls (my opponent only failed 3 invul saves), managed to wipe the squad with his stompy feet. I got 6 points in that turn, so I was off to a good start. On turn 2, both Jetbike squads came in, as well as the Allarus captain. My opponent managed to plink 3 wounds off of the Knight with his Hurricane Bolters, but other than that his shooting phase was uneventful. He charged the Knight with both Jetbike units, but only one made it in, thankfully. A squad of Custodian Guard and the Jetbike Captain charged one of my Hellblaster squads, but they only killed 3 of them thanks to Azrael's 4++ bubble. However, one Hellblaster was wrapped, which prevented the unit from falling back. The BT captain charged and murdered one of my units of Scout Bikers. The Knight, thanks to its relic Armor, managed to only take 10 wounds, but it only killed 2 of the bikes in return, and that was only because I burned 3 CP for the House Terryn "Fight Again" stratagem. 4++ saves on those bikes are brutal! The surviving bikers surrounded the Knight to prevent it from falling back as well. On my turn, I had my Dark Talon shoot at the unengaged jetbikes with its rift cannon, but only managed to do 3 wounds to one (failed the Vortex roll). It did mulch the remaining squad of Catachan guardsmen, though, with its Hurricane Bolters, except for one single guy, who my opponent auto-passed morale for since he held an objective. My unengaged Hellblasters had no targets, so they just kind of hung around Azrael and the banner. My second unit of Scout Bikers grabbed an objective. Azrael himself charged the Jetbike Captain, but only managed to do 2 wounds. He took none in return, though, as the Captain swung into the Hellblasters. I even used Honor the Chapter on Azrael, but he failed to get any damage through the 3++ save. 1 Hellblaster hung on and survived the Custodes' swings. The BT captain consolidated into one of my Vostroyan squads, who punched back and got a couple of wounds through the armor save. On my next turn, I ordered those Guardsmen to shoot in combat (thanks to Vostroyan order), doing another unsaved wound. I didn't want to fall back right there, because that would have left my Aquila bearer wide open to be ganked. Turn 3 saw the Knight finally go down once the second bike unit charged it, but it did manage to get off a round of attacks with the stratagem that allows it to fight one more time if it doesn't explode (which it didn't). That killed 2 of the bikes from that unit. Before charging the Knight, those bikers waxed one of my Guardsmen squads, and the survivors of the other squad fell back from the Knight and dropped my non-Aquila commander. The BT captain swung at the Guardsmen he was stuck in with, but only managed to kill 2 of them due to poor wound rolls. They didn't hurt him back, though. On my turn I charged a unit of Scouts into that captain, dropping him to 1 wound, but he turned around and wiped them out in one round of combat. The Guardsmen got revenge by killing him in their fight phase. A lot of what happened near Azrael I have forgotten what turn it happened, but I do know that the first Hellblaster squad went down, Azrael managed to do a couple more wounds to that captain, and then he fell back, allowing my second Hellblaster squad to kill both him and the Custodian Guard unit thanks to Weapons from the Dark Age. The surviving Jetbikes then came in and mowed down some Hellblasters in combat, and they even waxed my Guard squad, who, after killing the Marine captain, jumped up to the second floor of the ruins to put some FRFSRF on the Custodes (doing a couple of wounds before the Hellblasters finished the job). The jetbikes killed all but two of the Hellblasters, and Azrael. My Dark Talon finished off one Jetbike squad, and then another on the final turn of the game (we went to turn 6). In the end, I only had the Ancient, the Aquila commander, the Dark Talon, the Darkshroud, 1 Hellblaster, and one of my Scout Bike units left (which got me Linebreaker for my Old School). My opponent had both of his Guard commanders, one unit of Custodian Guard, his Allarus Shield-Captain, and I think he still had that lone survivor of the Guard squad from before. I won the game 26-23, and only because I played the objectives hard. I also made a lot of saves that kept my Knight alive longer (at one point I had 7 5+ saves to make vs. the Jetbikes, and I made 6/7 of them). I also had some downright crappy rolls in there too, so dice luck was probably about average for both players. My MVP was probably the Dark Talon, as it managed to harass a lot of stuff and very much kept me in the game by killing a few key models and units here and there.
My takeaways from the game:
-The new ITC missions and secondaries are awesome! The secondaries actually feel easier to score now. Technically the missions themselves haven't dropped yet, but the revamped secondaries are great.
-Knight Gallants make a great distraction that can actually kill stuff. Without it, I would have been eating jetbike charges on Azrael and friends a lot earlier. Landstrider is a great choice of trait for it, and the Armor of the Sainted Ion is pretty good too if you are facing opponents with good AP on their melee weapons.
-While I said earlier that the Azrael gunline is a trap build, it can be a daunting prospect for many opponents. The banner guy is really, really good, and punishes your opponent for shooting your Hellblasters, while Azrael himself can make anyone who charges the blob regret it due to being fairly strong in CC. Just don't do what I tend to do and leave his cheese hanging out in the wind after combat, because he can and will get crushed by strong CC enemies, and then there go your good buffs. The downside of the gunline is that it is fairly static, and once it does get locked up it struggles to do much of anything.
-I know I've said it several times before, but Scout Bikes are an awesome, reasonably cheap, mobile unit for grabbing objectives, and they have decent horde-clearing firepower as well. Ravenwing are more durable, but not that much, and they have less firepower and cost more.
-It's a sad reality of most current tournament metas (especially at the big tournaments), but it really is necessary to bring a cheap AM battalion for the Aquila, as CP regeneration is a hugely powerful mechanic. The guardsmen have the additional benefit of being a good cheap screen unit. Soup is likely here to stay.
Imperial Knights have a stratagem that you can use (Exalted Court) to make a Knight a character and give them a Warlord Trait. They only count as the Warlord for purpose of that trait.
Other topic:
Now that the Dark Talon is 200 Points, do you guys think the Nephilim with Avenger Mega Bolter has the edge again?
Not really. Dark Talon still does so much more between the Hurricane Bolters, Rift Cannon, and Stasis Bomb. Plus it can hover if needed.
I just got back from a 5-round GT this weekend. I ran an Imperial Soup list that was mainly Dark Angels (about 70% of my list). The event used the new and improved ITC missions and secondaries. Here is the list I ran:
Spoiler:
Detachment 1: Battalion Detachment (Dark Angels)
Azrael (Warlord)
Lieutenant: MC Bolter, Chainsword, Shroud of Heroes
5 Scouts: Heavy Bolter, 3x Bolter, Pistol/CCW on sarge
5 Scouts: 5x Pistol/CCW 5 Scouts: 4x Bolter, Pistol/CCW on sarge
Company Ancient
Ravenwing Darkshroud: Heavy Bolter
3 Scout Bikes: Storm Bolter on Sarge
3 Scout Bikes: no upgrades
8 Hellblasters: Plasma Incinerators
7 Hellblasters: Plasma Incinerators
Ravenwing Dark Talon
Detachment 2: Battalion Detachment (Astra Militarum: Vostroyan)
Company Commander: Kurov's Aquila, Shotgun, Chainsword
Company Commander: Shotgun, Chainsword
3x Infantry Squad: no upgrades
Detachment 3: Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperial Knights: House Terryn)
Knight Gallant: Exalted Court (I took different traits depending on opponent), Heirlooms (usually Armor of the Sainted Ion)
My first game was against a Guard list with a Knight Castellan allied in, but oddly enough no BA Slam Captains. We got the pointy version of Hammer & Anvil deployment, which considering our lists was a huge advantage to my opponent. The only things I managed to completely kill were 2 Hellhounds, which due to extremely sloppy play exploded right next to my Dark Talon, killing it after it fired its shots. I ultimately played just plain sloppy and way too conservatively, hence why I got absolutely crushed. Game 2 was against an inexperienced player running a very soft Grey Knights list. I won, but due to my opponent's inexperience we only got to turn 4. To be fair, the terrain helped her as well, as she was able to mostly hide stuff from my Knight, but only after it smashed a Dreadknight and a Razorback. My third opponent was running 3 Knights (a Castellan, Crusader, and Cerastus Lancer) along with a battalion of AdMech and an Imperial Bastion fortification. It was a wild game, with my Knight barely surviving being charged by the Lancer and then falling back so the Hellblasters could soften it up. It then charged back in and finished the job, and on the following turn it died to overwatch from the Crusader. I managed to play the objectives and very nearly managed to get a draw, but unfortunately due to an unlucky morale check on a Scout unit on the last turn I ended up losing by 2 points. My opponent was great, and it really was one of the best games of Warhammer I've ever played. Game 4 had me facing pure Alpha Legion CSM. I ended up going second, but due to extreme luck I weathered the storm and managed to give much better than I got that turn (my opponent's melta shots mostly just failed to wound the Knight, although the first one did 6 wounds). On my first turn, I charged the Knight into a unit of Bikes, a Jump Sorcerer, and 2 Princes. I used the happy feet to mash the Sorcerer and all the Bikers, somehow managed to make every save vs. the Princes (Armor of the Sainted Ion helped a lot here), and then popped the House Terryn strat to fight again. Both princes were wounded by my stomping feet, but neither were killed, that is until I Death Gripped one of them. My opponent chose to drop his Oblits near Azrael and friends instead of going after the Knight and he left the Prince in combat with it, and the results were fairly predictable in that matchup. I ended up winning fairly decisively, but it was a pretty good game that could have gone either way. I faced Drukhari in game 5, and was well on my way to getting absolutely pasted, but due to a real-life emergency my opponent had to concede mid-game, so I ended up with a win that I really didn't earn.
I ended up going 3-2, and was the top Dark Angels player (out of 3). I had a hell of a good time, and am looking forward to playing more GTs in the future. Prize support was awesome (everyone got a swag bag with some free stuff, and everyone who lost their first game got a free Scibor model of their choice) and the event itself was very well-run, with both my club and 2 others contributing terrain for it. Met a lot of great people, and just overall had a great time with the event. I look forward to going back next year.
Anyway, as far as my list and everything goes, here are my takeaways:
-The problem with the Azrael blob is that it is very slow moving, and that is a huge problem considering most gunline armies have longer ranged guns than Hellblasters do. The first game really empnasized this. That said, if it does get into rapid-fire range it will absolutely murder stuff, as long as it doesn't have -1 to hit or something. Weapons of the Dark Age may be the best stratagem in the Dark Angels codex, with Intractable coming in second (was absolutely clutch in game 4 for me).
-Knights are incredibly strong, even as an add-in to a list like I was running. My Gallant put in work in nearly every game. Of course, half the lists at the event had Knights of some kind in them, with several that had 3 or more. Knights are tricky for Dark Angels to handle, as the Hellblasters do struggle due to T8 and the invulnerable saves.
-Scout Bikes are a great cheap objective grabber unit. They don't last long if your opponent points any kind of serious weapon at them (Drukhari Disintegrators hurt them bad...), but they get a fair amount of shots for how cheap they are. I say this every time, but just about every Marine list should have some Scout Bikes.
-Dark Talons are absolutely amazeballs. Mine put in work in nearly every game. If I had more than 1 I would totally run more.
-If you run a Guard CP battery, make them Vostroyan. They get a great stratagem, a great unique order, and their regimental doctrine is really solid for a screen unit, allowing them to put in more work than most other regiments. The combo of combining their squads, using the Vostroyan strat, FRFSRF, and perhaps Vengeance for Cadia (if facing Chaos) can make them punch well above their weight. Don't treat your guardsmen as expendable; they are good objective holders and can potentially do things on offense if your opponent underestimates them and brings the party to you.
-Always, always, always take the Ancient if you run the Azrael blob. This thing was money in several of my games. Chapter Ancient really isn't necessary if you have Azrael unless -1 to hit is very prevalent in your meta.
ZergSmasher wrote: I just got back from a 5-round GT this weekend. I ran an Imperial Soup list that was mainly Dark Angels (about 70% of my list). The event used the new and improved ITC missions and secondaries.
Heh, I was there as well as the one brave necron player to face down all the imperial nastiness. Your list was one of the ones I was hoping to play against to see it run through it's paces and see what I wanted to apply to my own DA.
ZergSmasher wrote: I just got back from a 5-round GT this weekend. I ran an Imperial Soup list that was mainly Dark Angels (about 70% of my list). The event used the new and improved ITC missions and secondaries.
Heh, I was there as well as the one brave necron player to face down all the imperial nastiness. Your list was one of the ones I was hoping to play against to see it run through it's paces and see what I wanted to apply to my own DA.
I saw your army. I would have enjoyed the challenge of facing it, as I haven't had many games against Necrons since their codex dropped, and none at all with my Dark Angels (I've faced them twice with my Tau).
-The problem with the Azrael blob is that it is very slow moving, and that is a huge problem considering most gunline armies have longer ranged guns than Hellblasters do. The first game really empnasized this. That said, if it does get into rapid-fire range it will absolutely murder stuff, as long as it doesn't have -1 to hit or something. Weapons of the Dark Age may be the best stratagem in the Dark Angels codex, with Intractable coming in second (was absolutely clutch in game 4 for me).
That's issue for gunlines in general. You really need some fast objective grappers. Yesterday my orks were blown to pieces but I still won because the IG stayed put in his DZ first 3 turns more or less(apart from pair of hellhounds and sentinel). With his army not that he even could move much with that army.
-If you run a Guard CP battery, make them Vostroyan. They get a great stratagem, a great unique order, and their regimental doctrine is really solid for a screen unit, allowing them to put in more work than most other regiments. The combo of combining their squads, using the Vostroyan strat, FRFSRF, and perhaps Vengeance for Cadia (if facing Chaos) can make them punch well above their weight. Don't treat your guardsmen as expendable; they are good objective holders and can potentially do things on offense if your opponent underestimates them and brings the party to you.
Vengeance for Cadia is a) cadian model only b) affects, funnily enough, cadian units only. Thus if you are using Vostroyan not only you can't field it easily but if you do by taking up cadian character(thus losing vostroyan regimental doctrine) it only affects any CADIAN units you might have. So no way whatsoever to combine vostroyan effects with vengeance for cadian effects. You could have vostroyan and cadian detachments but that's not quite the same.
Vengeance for Cadia only mentions Cadia in the name of the strategem. Otherwise it specifically mentions a Astra Militarium unit as the target, not a Cadian unit.
Ah sorry mistook that for the relic. Too much term cadia running around(not to mention never have had chance to use that strategem. Relic yes, strategem no)
I'm expecting a significant meta shift in the near future, with Knights getting a huge whack, and the subsequent release of Orks is going to lead towards a swing back to Hordes owning the tables. Got me thinking of a list I'd like to test out against such things.
BN and Spearhead
Azrael
Lt. w/ RHeavan Fall Blade/Plasma Pistol
Lt. w/ MC Bolter
10 Intercessors
10 Intercessors
5 Sniper Scouts
5 Sniper Scouts
Darkshourd
10 Hellblasters
Rapier w/ Heavy Bolters
Rapier w/ Heavy Bolters
Rapier w/ Quad Mortars
Leviathan w/ 2 Storm Cannons
Whirlwind Hyperios
If hordes become the new meta, I'll definitely start actually running my Repulsor. That thing does terrible, terrible things to hordes, especially if it can get rerolls (like being next to Azrael).
I'm definitely leaning towards mobility being key to making Dark Angels work well. I will be running the "same old Azrael gunline" tomorrow in a tournament just because I don't want to have to try to learn to operate a new list, but in future I'm probably going to lean more towards using Sammael and a Talonmaster, at least 2 Dark Talons, some plasma Inceptors and/or Black Knights, and possibly some Space Wolf allies (Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves, possibly a unit of Wulfen outflanking, all in a Supreme Command detachment). The Azrael gunline barely works (sort of), but it is a very one-dimensional list and it auto-loses against any kind of REAL gunline (like what Guard Artillery or Tau can do) due to the relatively short range of Hellblasters and almost complete lack of mobility.
I've seen a lot of lists where a biker Sergeant is equipped with a Combi-Plasma, but in my codex he can only take weapons from melee or pistol list. Am I missing something?
Crimson_ wrote: I've seen a lot of lists where a biker Sergeant is equipped with a Combi-Plasma, but in my codex he can only take weapons from melee or pistol list. Am I missing something?
The combi-weapons are an Index option, so while they aren't listed in the codex they are still allowed as per GW's FAQ concerning Index wargear and models.
Looks pretty close to me that's why I asked. Attack bikes have better movement (20 if they advance) and twice as many wounds. Does that make up for not having as many s5 attacks?
Mk X wrote: Looks pretty close to me that's why I asked. Attack bikes have better movement (20 if they advance) and twice as many wounds. Does that make up for not having as many s5 attacks?
The bikes would advance and then not be able to fire their weapons, and then they only have 3 shots each.
Speed of the raven would allow them to advance and then fire
the twin bolters and heavy bolters, without penalty and then
they'd be allowed to charge as well. If I'm not mistaken. They'd
end up with 4++ jink saves too.
Okay so that's three people who agree attack bikes are no good. I'll go with the assault bolter inceptors instead. I'll use speed of the raven on my warlord.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hey fellas how can I improve my list? The Devs can move and
shoot without concern as the Sargent can negate the penalty
for the heavy bolter. 12 command points should allow for some
hellfire shooting with the Devs when using grim resolve,
Sargent and the cherub. The warlord can use speed of the
raven, get in close and target the enemy warlord with 4 plasma
shots. Hopefully he'll be buffed by Sammael and the TM.
RW Champion is a DA character
RW Champion can be DA warlord
A DA character can take a relic if the warlord is DA Should be a good BS3+ character sniper with Sotr + Wftda + Sammael RR + TM negating cover and RR 1s to wounds on 4
shots at s7 ap-3 dm2.
I believe the Lion's roar is an upgrade for a combi-plasma, and I don't think Ravenwing Champions can take one of those (in fact, no upgrades at all)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if you want a character sniper then a techmarine (on bike) may be a good option. Sadly will not get the ravenwing keyword, so no speed of the raven for him, but will pack alot of shots (two from Lion's roar, one from plasma cutter + 6 bolter shots at bs 2+). Also, a flamer! Needs to get within 12" (8" for the flamer) to pull it off, and has basically no defence apart from his character keyword. Could be a nasty surprise for someone.
if you really want character snipers, bring 15 scouts with sniper rifles. dark angel HQ's, like all Space Marines, are good at buffing and beating. keep them focused on that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: also the castellan knight is great for character sniping with it's missile stratagem
Yes, snipers to actually do sniping is a good idea. I think Reese from Frontline gaming used alot of these together with a reroll bubble in in SM army at Nova.
Brickolage wrote: I believe the Lion's roar is an upgrade for a combi-plasma, and I don't think Ravenwing Champions can take one of those (in fact, no upgrades at all)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if you want a character sniper then a techmarine (on bike) may be a good option. Sadly will not get the ravenwing keyword, so no speed of the raven for him, but will pack alot of shots (two from Lion's roar, one from plasma cutter + 6 bolter shots at bs 2+). Also, a flamer! Needs to get within 12" (8" for the flamer) to pull it off, and has basically no defence apart from his character keyword. Could be a nasty surprise for someone.
The techmarine has access to a way better weapon which enables him to stay in the backgroud. Take a look at the conversion beamer you can use on the techmarine with bike.
Brickolage wrote: I believe the Lion's roar is an upgrade for a combi-plasma, and I don't think Ravenwing Champions can take one of those (in fact, no upgrades at all)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if you want a character sniper then a techmarine (on bike) may be a good option. Sadly will not get the ravenwing keyword, so no speed of the raven for him, but will pack alot of shots (two from Lion's roar, one from plasma cutter + 6 bolter shots at bs 2+). Also, a flamer! Needs to get within 12" (8" for the flamer) to pull it off, and has basically no defence apart from his character keyword. Could be a nasty surprise for someone.
The techmarine has access to a way better weapon which enables him to stay in the backgroud. Take a look at the conversion beamer you can use on the techmarine with bike.
Yes, but I think the conversion beamer is heavy, which means it can't be used with the huntsman warlord trait.
Brickolage wrote: I believe the Lion's roar is an upgrade for a combi-plasma, and I don't think Ravenwing Champions can take one of those (in fact, no upgrades at all)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if you want a character sniper then a techmarine (on bike) may be a good option. Sadly will not get the ravenwing keyword, so no speed of the raven for him, but will pack alot of shots (two from Lion's roar, one from plasma cutter + 6 bolter shots at bs 2+). Also, a flamer! Needs to get within 12" (8" for the flamer) to pull it off, and has basically no defence apart from his character keyword. Could be a nasty surprise for someone.
The techmarine has access to a way better weapon which enables him to stay in the backgroud. Take a look at the conversion beamer you can use on the techmarine with bike.
Yes, but I think the conversion beamer is heavy, which means it can't be used with the huntsman warlord trait.
That is indeed true, I did not take that into account.
axisofentropy wrote: also the castellan knight is great for character sniping with it's missile stratagem
that's pretty much quaranteed 3 CP for <30% chance to kill 4W character. if you try that you need some snipers or you will likely end up with just wounded character.
Those missiles sounds awesome but when you realize how easy it is to miss(3+ to hit), wound(2+) or not roll enough wounds and how much CP it eats...Well I find generally better use for CP. Like house raven strategem for extra turn for that awesome "blow up 2-3 units a turn" castellan.
axisofentropy wrote: also the castellan knight is great for character sniping with it's missile stratagem
that's pretty much quaranteed 3 CP for <30% chance to kill 4W character. if you try that you need some snipers or you will likely end up with just wounded character.
Those missiles sounds awesome but when you realize how easy it is to miss(3+ to hit), wound(2+) or not roll enough wounds and how much CP it eats...Well I find generally better use for CP. Like house raven strategem for extra turn for that awesome "blow up 2-3 units a turn" castellan.
sounds like you don't really need character sniping then.
axisofentropy wrote: also the castellan knight is great for character sniping with it's missile stratagem
that's pretty much quaranteed 3 CP for <30% chance to kill 4W character. if you try that you need some snipers or you will likely end up with just wounded character.
Those missiles sounds awesome but when you realize how easy it is to miss(3+ to hit), wound(2+) or not roll enough wounds and how much CP it eats...Well I find generally better use for CP. Like house raven strategem for extra turn for that awesome "blow up 2-3 units a turn" castellan.
sounds like you don't really need character sniping then.
Character sniping is always useful but the big knights are rather resource heavy way to do that and unless you bring in OTHER character snipers you are basically depending on luck.
So far out of all the attempts my castellan(and that's raven one so better than any other house. Other houses don't reroll 1's for everything which helps with the 3 chances you can screw it) and very rarely have succeeded with it. Only vs eldar it actually worked(twice though one time didn't need strategem and frankly didn't need missile either. I was standing 1.1" from autarch...) and that was pure blind luck both missiles killed target. Odds are waaaaay too low.
With raven vs say farseer you are looking at:
75% chance to hit
97% chance to wound
38.89% chance to cause enough wounds.
That's what 28% chance combined that it actually worked...
Command reroll to reroll those 2's to hit and 2, 3 and 4 to wound helps of course but then again you can end up using that for the reroll to hit and then roll 2, 3 and 4 to damage.
I remember the fuss about that combo but in practice it's too unreliable to RELY on if you need character sniping. You need plenty of snipers to help along with IG battery to provide CP for that super CP hungry attempt. Alone it's leaving just wounded characters most of the time(good vs ork weirdboys though. 2 wounds to them basically neuters it)
Vector Strike wrote: Today I've managed to kill a full HP knight in one turn with 6 plasma inceptors and one jump pack master near them.
It was... glorious.
That unit can put in serious work, given some good rolls. How long did they survive afterwards, though? And how many blew themselves up despite the Master's rerolls?
Vector Strike wrote: Today I've managed to kill a full HP knight in one turn with 6 plasma inceptors and one jump pack master near them.
It was... glorious.
That unit can put in serious work, given some good rolls. How long did they survive afterwards, though? And how many blew themselves up despite the Master's rerolls?
The opponent conceded after that, but we did a joke next round and his rune priest + wolf lord killed them all (charged me behind a tall buildind).
Regarding overheat, none died. I was amazed (and so was my opponent )
---
Ah, and his TWC smashed through my Hellblasters. The latter certainly aren't an answer to the former, if these are carrying storm shields
I dunno, supercharging and popping WotDA on the Hellblasters could still do work. They may not fail that many saves but each one is a dead Thunderwolf, so not total cabbage against them.
I'm a pretty casual gamer and plan to stay that way, but I don't like leaning into the pain unnecessarily.
Has anyone figured out good ways to use Deathwing stuff? I have a bunch and am tempted. But my first army is IG, and the point efficiencies on all of that just seem outrageous to me.
Terminators are kind of in a bad place in 8th edition. They are among the most inefficient units for their points. They seem pretty sturdy at first with 2 wounds and a 2+ armor save, but there are plenty of weapons out there with good AP modifiers and 2 or more damage that will just delete them with little or no effort (like Drukhari Ravagers with Disintegrators).
That said, if you insist on giving Deathwing a shot, you really should include Belial. He gives them full rerolls to hit, and is pretty beastly in combat himself. Play them aggressively; drop them close to the enemy and charge with them if possible, as they will get killed if they just sit out in the open. I used to use Deathwing at the beginning of 8th, but now, nearly everything else is more efficient. The rules for Terminators in general need a serious overhaul, as they don't really have anything that they are good at. Their firepower is mediocre at best, they are slow-moving, they are too expensive to just sit on objectives all game, and there are too many weapons in the game that just wipe them out.
Personally I think our best hope may lie in Chapter Approved. If nothing is done for termies then, my boys in bone will just continue to keep vigil over my shelves, waiting for an edition that actually makes them good.
Right, so I finally finished the thread and have accepted a few sad truths. One, I've given up on character sniping. Two, a lot of the models I have aren't the best performing. Three, It'll be a waste of money to buy a stormraven to ferry in a Vernerable (Deathwing) Dreadnought Chaplain, Belial and 5 Deathwing Knights.
I really like the idea of a Vernerable Dreadnought Chaplain Warlord upgraded with the Deathwing strat to buff its shooting with Belial. As the warlord the vern-dread-chap could buff the charge range or strength of the others around him to +2. Additionally the knights charging in only have to make it to within an inch of the dreads large base right?
But it seems like a waste of points. What are some good ways to use stormravens in a DA list?
I'm thinking of getting a Stormraven just to provide heavy fire support. It can supplement my 2 Dark Talons in an Air Wing detachment. There's not really anything worthwhile to put in it, except maybe some Company Veterans with plasma or something, as they are too fragile and slow to footslog up the board.
Problem is, a Stormraven with Deathwing Knights inside becomes a fire magnet that goes beyond Distraction Carnifex into points sink. I've tried to make it work since our 8th Ed Codex allowed SRs. It looks nice on my table, but thats it for now.
I also regret to report that you cannot transport Primaris in a Stormraven.
Mk X wrote: I'm going to do, I'll buy one and another dark talon/nephilm. It sounds like it'll be fun.
I imagine you could drop a full squad of hellblaster right next to the enemy warlord. Character targeting.
Primaris can't go inside the Stormraven. Plasma Veterans or storm bolter/chainsword Veterans are your best bet imo. You could then add Asmodai, Ezekiel +/or an Ancient to the mix, although the cheaper the combo the better
SHUPPET wrote: Opinions on running Primaris-less DA guys?
you mean Oldmarines?
Plasmacannon Dev squads are a favorite of the 'I hate Primaris' players. Less range for slightly less points but still good in a pinch. Scouts are still the best troop choice and DA likes to have at least one squad be snipers. Essentially putting up a screen of cheap scouts to keep the enemy away from a huge shooting line of rerolls 1s dark angels (with lieutenants for wounds rerolls of one), backed by everyone favorite Dark Shroud speeder. It essentially the same the primaris list, but with lascannons and plasma cannons in place of hellblasters.
SHUPPET wrote: Opinions on running Primaris-less DA guys?
you mean Oldmarines?
Plasmacannon Dev squads are a favorite of the 'I hate Primaris' players. Less range for slightly less points but still good in a pinch. Scouts are still the best troop choice and DA likes to have at least one squad be snipers. Essentially putting up a screen of cheap scouts to keep the enemy away from a huge shooting line of rerolls 1s dark angels (with lieutenants for wounds rerolls of one), backed by everyone favorite Dark Shroud speeder. It essentially the same the primaris list, but with lascannons and plasma cannons in place of hellblasters.
Nothing against Primaris, in fact I like them, but I'm building Fallen and it wouldn't make sense thematically
Essentially what I'm asking is, how crucial is Primaris to a good DA list? And you seem to have answered that fairly well, just wondering how big of a handicap it is?
I don't think a lack of Primaris is a big handicap. The Hellblaster/Azrael bubble is good but a bit of a one-trick pony. Black Knights with Sammael or Azrael are a very good alternative to Hellblasters as well.
SHUPPET wrote: Opinions on running Primaris-less DA guys?
you mean Oldmarines?
Plasmacannon Dev squads are a favorite of the 'I hate Primaris' players. Less range for slightly less points but still good in a pinch. Scouts are still the best troop choice and DA likes to have at least one squad be snipers. Essentially putting up a screen of cheap scouts to keep the enemy away from a huge shooting line of rerolls 1s dark angels (with lieutenants for wounds rerolls of one), backed by everyone favorite Dark Shroud speeder. It essentially the same the primaris list, but with lascannons and plasma cannons in place of hellblasters.
Nothing against Primaris, in fact I like them, but I'm building Fallen and it wouldn't make sense thematically
Essentially what I'm asking is, how crucial is Primaris to a good DA list? And you seem to have answered that fairly well, just wondering how big of a handicap it is?
I love primaris and have primarily built lists in that direction, but the more established DA players never put anything more than hellblasters in their lists. (I think they are missing out on inceptors, but the Deepstrike nerf is a pain to get around). You really aren't losing out if you use Dev squads instead. You don't get the focused fire, but lascannons can outmatch the hellblasters for range and the plasmacannons work just as well for a slight point discount.
I think the final asnwer is that Tourney winning lists will take hellblasters so they can ping the hell out of knights from 30" away and make the knights afraid to come within 15". Really good but not strictly waac lists can take dev squads and probably do just as well, but require a little more skill in placement as you'll be dealing with oldmarine's more limited range and single wound.
SHUPPET wrote: Opinions on running Primaris-less DA guys?
you mean Oldmarines?
Plasmacannon Dev squads are a favorite of the 'I hate Primaris' players. Less range for slightly less points but still good in a pinch. Scouts are still the best troop choice and DA likes to have at least one squad be snipers. Essentially putting up a screen of cheap scouts to keep the enemy away from a huge shooting line of rerolls 1s dark angels (with lieutenants for wounds rerolls of one), backed by everyone favorite Dark Shroud speeder. It essentially the same the primaris list, but with lascannons and plasma cannons in place of hellblasters.
Nothing against Primaris, in fact I like them, but I'm building Fallen and it wouldn't make sense thematically
Essentially what I'm asking is, how crucial is Primaris to a good DA list? And you seem to have answered that fairly well, just wondering how big of a handicap it is?
I love my Hellblasters, but I never leave the Rock without at least Devastator Squad armed with Lascannons/Missile Launchers. A Devastator Squad with four Plasma Cannons is less reliable than a Hellblaster Squad in terms of damage output, but it can still put out some pain with WFtDA. A Spearhead consisting of one Devastator Squad with Lascannons and two Devastator Squads with Plasma Cannons led by a Lieutenant (or two) can be a useful firebase for a Dark Angels list.
I've been looking closely at mortis dreads instead of devs or predators. I'm thinking one lascannon mortis dread or one autocannon mortis dread parked up the back next to a rhino primaris.
For my no-primaris Fallen build, I was thinking of doing something like
Battalion:
Talonmaster Sammael
Scouts Scouts Scouts
Ravenwing Ancient
Ravenwing Darkshroud
Outrider:
Librarian w/ Bike, Aversion + Mind Wipe
3x Ravenwing Bikers, Sergeant w/Power Sword 3x Ravenwing Bikers, Sergeant w/Power Sword 3x Ravenwing Black Knights 3x Ravenwing Black Knights
Airwing:
Dark Talon Dark Talon Dark Talon
I love the synergy and speed, however I don't know if it's too few bodies or dice. I haven't run this faction before so I'd like to ask here first. Thoughts?
Looks pretty good to me. I'd run the RWBK as one unit of 6 to make the most of WotDA.
If you're not against soup I think a guard battalion would probably be more beneficial than the scouts for the extra bodies (edit: and ofcCP regen but that may well be going away this month - I still think it'd be worth it even without the farming)
SHUPPET wrote: For my no-primaris Fallen build, I was thinking of doing something like
Battalion:
Talonmaster
Sammael
Scouts
Scouts
Scouts
Ravenwing Ancient
Ravenwing Darkshroud
Outrider:
Librarian w/ Bike, Aversion + Mind Wipe
3x Ravenwing Bikers, Sergeant w/Power Sword
3x Ravenwing Bikers, Sergeant w/Power Sword
3x Ravenwing Black Knights
3x Ravenwing Black Knights
Airwing:
Dark Talon
Dark Talon
Dark Talon
I love the synergy and speed, however I don't know if it's too few bodies or dice. I haven't run this faction before so I'd like to ask here first. Thoughts?
I think you are putting too much into ravenwing, dark talons, talon master and sammael are great, but i think its better to swap some bikers for plasma inceptors and some smash captains.
Depending on terrain it might not be easy to hide all your black knights and if they are dead you will struglle against monsters and tanks.
in my opinion black knights are too expensive and too vulnerable to alphastrikes
The list is fine - agree that the Black Knights should roll into one big squad. You've got lots of dakka, so I might add some meltas to the Ravenwing bikers.
I'm not sure what a Fallen themed list drawn from the Dark Angels Codex would look like, but with your no-Primaris restriction I think you have a solid list. I ran something similar at a tourney (lower points though) and I was happy.
Can somebody enlighten me, why Hellblasters are considered superior to dev squads?
I think for Dark Angels, the devs are superior.
To profit from rerolling 1s you want to keep your plasma weapons stationary. Because of that, the larger range of the Plasma Canon is very important. in Addition, an average of 2 shots seems very decent to me.
Aeri wrote: Can somebody enlighten me, why Hellblasters are considered superior to dev squads?
I think for Dark Angels, the devs are superior.
To profit from rerolling 1s you want to keep your plasma weapons stationary. Because of that, the larger range of the Plasma Canon is very important. in Addition, an average of 2 shots seems very decent to me.
Because they have a better weapon, the entire squad has it and they can move and shoot. In 8e, standing still is really dangerous
However, Devs aren't bad at all. Hellblasters are just more cost-effective
Aeri wrote: Can somebody enlighten me, why Hellblasters are considered superior to dev squads?
I think for Dark Angels, the devs are superior.
To profit from rerolling 1s you want to keep your plasma weapons stationary. Because of that, the larger range of the Plasma Canon is very important. in Addition, an average of 2 shots seems very decent to me.
Because they have a better weapon, the entire squad has it and they can move and shoot. In 8e, standing still is really dangerous
However, Devs aren't bad at all. Hellblasters are just more cost-effective
And you will most likely have Azrael or at least a master babysitting them so they will reroll 1 even if they move.
Aeri wrote: Can somebody enlighten me, why Hellblasters are considered superior to dev squads?
I think for Dark Angels, the devs are superior.
To profit from rerolling 1s you want to keep your plasma weapons stationary. Because of that, the larger range of the Plasma Canon is very important. in Addition, an average of 2 shots seems very decent to me.
I use both Devastators and Hellblasters. The Hellblasters allow you to really benefit from WFtDA if you commit to them. A full squad of ten puts out serious pain and they have some mobility. Azrael goes with them, along with a Lieutenant and an Ancient. The Ap-4 is also something that you cannot ignore (although targets with invuls don't care). My ten-man squad deleted a Baneblade chassis three turns in a row during a tourney in Feb.
I played a 3 round store tournament with both 10 hellblasters and 6 plasma inveptors. The inceptors are where it's at because they don't start on the table as targets. Deep Strike, and the Fly keyword protect them from many threats.
Aeri wrote: Can somebody enlighten me, why Hellblasters are considered superior to dev squads?
I think for Dark Angels, the devs are superior.
To profit from rerolling 1s you want to keep your plasma weapons stationary. Because of that, the larger range of the Plasma Canon is very important. in Addition, an average of 2 shots seems very decent to me.
If you like plasma devs, try using them with a rhino primaris. I picked up a Rhino Damocles and im going to build it with a couple of antennas from a darkshroud/LSV box and a couple of servitor skulls and for the twin plasmagun turret I'll use magnets.
I'm thinking a 5 man Dev squad, sgt with combi plasma, 4 plasma cannons and a reload cherub next to a
Rhino Primaris next means they can disembark or move and shoot without the -1 penalty. When stationary they'd all beable to supercharge rerolling 1s and getting +1 to hit. If you're in rapid fire range the combi plasma sgt gets 4 shots the the reload cherub.
There's room in the rhino primaris for a tech marine too, might as well give him a combi plasma. Also there could be a couple of mortis dreads near to him to keep him busy repairing.
Indeed, let's make non-primaris great again. With that in mind; I've been trying really hard to work out the most competitive build I can make with my existing collection, but I keep drawing a blank. I can field most 'old' things including 3 predators, but I have no flyers, no primaris and no smash captains (masters).
I won't list every model (there are 261), but suffice to say I can field:
Various masters on foot, including the DV one who can proxy as Azrael
Various chaplains
Librarian on foot, librarian on bike
A bunch of veterans/lieutenants
6 full tac squads
2 full dev squads
1 full assault squad
1x4 snipers + msl scout
2x5 pistol and CCW scout.
11 black knights
RW Ancient
RW champ
RW Apothecary
21 ravenwing bikes including 2 flamers, 2 meltas and 3 sergeants
15 deathwing knights including 2 masters
2 rhinos
1 droppod
3 predators
1 vindicator
Techmarine
3 dreadnoughts
4 land speeders
1 dark shroud
1 talonmaster/sammael
1 land raider
All I can think of is an Azrael/devastator blob plus ravenwing, but as soon as I try building that I run out of points so fast... I've never been comfortable with elite armies and I think I need help designing one. Not having 50+ models on the board feels wrong.
Plasma Cannon devs are decent due to price. You typically invest 330pts into hellblasters, Azrael to protect and reroll (180pts), an Lt (63pts), and an ancient (63pts) so that's 636pts which makes a great target.
A dev sqd with 4 PCs and a cherub is 154pts (I'd be tempted to add a few ablatives), but no need to add a reroll aura due to Grim Resolve. It's such a small point cost that you can invest in greater threats elsewhere, but it's still an average of 10 S8 AP-3 3 damage shots (after using cherub). That's a decent return.
bullyboy wrote: Plasma Cannon devs are decent due to price. You typically invest 330pts into hellblasters, Azrael to protect and reroll (180pts), an Lt (63pts), and an ancient (63pts) so that's 636pts which makes a great target.
A dev sqd with 4 PCs and a cherub is 154pts (I'd be tempted to add a few ablatives), but no need to add a reroll aura due to Grim Resolve. It's such a small point cost that you can invest in greater threats elsewhere, but it's still an average of 10 S8 AP-3 3 damage shots (after using cherub). That's a decent return.
The biggest issue for me is that I use the weapons form the dark ages strategem which works considerably better on a unit of ten plasma guns than on a unit of four. Also the mobility is a important factor. I actually move my in a blob with azrael, lt and ancient and a leviathan dreadnought in front. This combo works really well.
Eldarsif wrote: What are people's current "do not leave home without it" units for Dark Angels in 8th?
Dark Shroud. -1 to hit is so good and it's fast enough to rush foward with RW or it can stay back to protect a gunline. There's just no reason to not bring one.
Besides the Darkshroud I would say either Sammael on Land Speeder or a Talonmaster. The amount of dakka that the twin assault cannon/twin heavy bolter put out is amazing.
axisofentropy wrote: Talonmaster and/or Sammeal on speeder are probably the best units in all armies and matchups.
Also good:
Azrael surrounded by primaris marines and an ancient. Dark Talon or two.
I often use a darkshroud but I have mixed feelings about it. It's always the first thing opponents shoot at.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and scouts are the best unit in all space marines codexes. Can't forget them. No other Troop unit comes close.
Yeah the darkshroud is the first thing they shoot at, but it's doing it's job as long as it's protecting your other units in any way . It will usually eat up more shooting than it's cost and a lot of times all you need is for it to survive a turn to get into range with the rest of your army.
Although, this weekend I had one blow up in the middle of my Azrael bubble....
Honestly if you are going with a more mobile list Black Knights might suit you better than Hellblasters anyways. Inceptors are a good pick for that kind of list too.
I have no problem with people shooting at my darkshroud (even better if I went first and advanced to get the 4+ jink), as it's simply an aura with almost zero offensive capability (I always just add the HB since I want to advance with it). It's not going to kill anything so please go ahead and shoot at it.
I need to make a Sammy on Sableclaw as I only have corvex right now. I have the bits, just need the landspeeder. Him, a talon master and a pair of dark talons is serious dakka.
I also think the land Speeder Vengeance is undervalued too, it can do some serious work with the right rolls (but is unreliable).
ZergSmasher wrote: Honestly if you are going with a more mobile list Black Knights might suit you better than Hellblasters anyways. Inceptors are a good pick for that kind of list too.
Plasma inceptors vs black knights.
59 points vs 46 points.
Black knights get to Jink. Inceptors get Crushing Charge.
Black knights get buffs from RWHQs though.
Black knights seem to be better.
ZergSmasher wrote: Honestly if you are going with a more mobile list Black Knights might suit you better than Hellblasters anyways. Inceptors are a good pick for that kind of list too.
Plasma inceptors vs black knights.
59 points vs 46 points.
Black knights get to Jink. Inceptors get Crushing Charge.
Black knights get buffs from RWHQs though.
Black knights seem to be better.
Inceptors get Deep Strike, which makes them save against Alpha Strike in T1.
Well, Black Knights will do IMHO an better Alpha Strike because of Speed of the Raven.
ZergSmasher wrote: Honestly if you are going with a more mobile list Black Knights might suit you better than Hellblasters anyways. Inceptors are a good pick for that kind of list too.
Plasma inceptors vs black knights.
59 points vs 46 points.
Black knights get to Jink. Inceptors get Crushing Charge.
Black knights get buffs from RWHQs though.
Black knights seem to be better.
Inceptors get Deep Strike, which makes them save against Alpha Strike in T1.
Well, Black Knights will do IMHO an better Alpha Strike because of Speed of the Raven.
Think, it is a list/meta choice descision.
Good points and it's good to know the black knights aren't considered obsolete. I have loads of knights but I have zero plasma inceptors.
When it comes to deep striking primaris units I only have 1 3 man unit of assault bolter inceptors. I have regular assault troops, DW Knights and DW Terminators, at the moment I'm considering Reviers over Inceptors. Because they're cheap and may last a while.
Based on your tactical design, you might want to replace at least one squadron of Black Knights with Hellblasters. Azrael would stick with them while Sammael heads off with the Black Knights. A Talonmaster would also help your Black Knights, but he is quite expensive.
Unfortunately, you cannot conga line back to Azrael. His invul aura is for models within 6" of Azrael, not units, so only the 1 or 2 Black Knights at the back will get the invul. It's better to advance the Black Knights every turn for Jink and use Speed of the Raven on whatever unit you are going to overcharge with.
I think you should drop Azrael and the Lieutenant and replace them with 1 Talonmaster, drop the tac squad for a third scout squad and try to find space for either a Dark Talon or another Talonmaster.
abyrn wrote: Unfortunately, you cannot conga line back to Azrael. His invul aura is for models within 6" of Azrael, not units, so only the 1 or 2 Black Knights at the back will get the invul. It's better to advance the Black Knights every turn for Jink and use Speed of the Raven on whatever unit you are going to overcharge with.
Argh, you are right.
abyrn wrote: I think you should drop Azrael and the Lieutenant and replace them with 1 Talonmaster, drop the tac squad for a third scout squad and try to find space for either a Dark Talon or another Talonmaster.
Well, I think that (probably?) Azrael is impotrant to survive first turn shooting? Also, i don't have Talonmaster model and haven't plan to buy it (right now I'm not thaht fan from it). Also, I only have 2 Scouts sqaud atm.
Based on the Feedback and the not possible conga line back to Azrael.
Think has more bunch and speed.
Hm, good point reagarding Hellblasters. Have to think about.
But do you think, that the inclusion of Hellblaster would be limit the maneuverability?
The Hellblasters can still march along with Azrael - it just gives you options.
Your Custodes Supreme Command Detachment list would be quite zippy! I can't quite bring myself to add those fellows to my Ravenwing but you might be on to something.
Hm, good point reagarding Hellblasters. Have to think about.
But do you think, that the inclusion of Hellblaster would be limit the maneuverability?
The Hellblasters can still march along with Azrael - it just gives you options.
Your Custodes Supreme Command Detachment list would be quite zippy! I can't quite bring myself to add those fellows to my Ravenwing but you might be on to something.
Like our own Talon Masters Supreme Command Detachment?
(Edit reason: wrote dark talons instead of talon master)
9 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon - 414 Pts.
9 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon - 414 Pts.
9 Ravenwing Black Knights, Plasma talon - 414 Pts. Total: 2.000 Pts
Idea is, that first turn all Black Knights, Azrael, Sammy and Lieutenant stand nearby Azi because of 4++. Darkshroud covers the blob.
My first turn, one BK units advance in front and shoots/charge thanks to SotR and with WftDA. Supported from Sammy as well Lieutenant.
The other Black Knights will conga lineup to Azi.
thoughts?
Almost exactly what I tweaked my list to, except I put in only TWO black Knight squads, and made the third one into 3 squads of 3x Ravenwing Bikers so that I could take a Ravenwing Ancient. Also instead of Azrael and LT, I had Talonmaster and a Psyker. I figured 2 was enough since you can only give one WftDA a turn?
You're getting pretty soupy, but I guess that's OK! At least the Dawn Eagles fit the theme of the army - the BA Slamguinius' version make the list look like its trying very hard. To keep Dark Angels pure I second the suggestion of someone earlier about Dark Talons instead of the Dawn Eagles.
I run nine Black Knights as one big squad rather than two smaller ones as you have them. Weapons From the Dark Age works best on large squads - you only get one use per turn. The same goes for Speed of the the Raven. One big squad running with Sammael can take advantage of both Strategems each turn - thus gaining the 4++ Jink save without a negative effect on your Damage 3 superchariging WFtDA shooting. The downside is that the enemy can focus fire on them. At least they are immune to morale losses!
My nine-man Black Knights squadron took down an Eldar Knight in one round of shooting two weekends ago.. Big guns are a worry, but the 4++ plus the Dark Shroud can help against low-volume high damage shots. They are vulnerable to lots of small arms fire. I lost them to two-twenty man Guardian squads with Shuriken Catapults in rapid-fire range (one of them used deep strike). Doom didn't help...I try to keep my Black Knights at the 16" to 18" range, exploiting their mobility. I took a six-man Black Knight squadron as the centre of a 1,250 point tourney and they were great. They died in one game where I rerolled a bunch of ones - dance with lady luck enough times and you get burnt! Otherwise they took down the enemy's big scary things while the Talonmaster and a normal Ravenwing squad hanlded crowds.
I am not sold on Dark Angels Librarians for your list. I think that a Lieutenant with a Jump Pack or Talonmaster would be much more useful.
ps - While my Ravenwing Ancient looks nice, he is not all that useful. Adding +1 attack to the list is not a huge buff for a list that doesn't really want to be in close combat. I tried him out for a while when 8th dropped and he doesn't make the cut for me. If he had the other Ancient abilities it would be a different story. Paradoxically, the Ravenwing Champion can be useful. In addition, a Talonmaster (or three) is not that hard to kitbash. A plasic Landspeeder with an extra assault cannon and heavy bolter from your bitz box plus some Ravenwing bling from your Black Knights left-overs and you are good to go. I wouldn't call myself a modeller and I was pleasantly surprised with my results.
Regarding soup:
I feel, in a competitive environment, mono list (especially Marines of any kind) isn’t worth. Or do you have another experience? Because if I look to ETC/LOV lists etc there were all soups.
@Ancient/Champion:
Agree with you: On paper he doesn’t looks very scary.
Yeah, the RW champion looks decent. I have tried to integrate him into the list, but he is always the first who is kicked out if points running out.
@Talonmaster
Is the Talonmaster sooooo good, that he is a must have? Because on paper he looks god but the Heavy Weapon penalty hurts. I don’t feel impressed.
That is the nice thing from the Shield Captains because the don’t get any penalties and weren’t vehicles (so such abilities like Melta doesn’t work against them [ok poison will work better against the Shield-Captains ).
@Libby:
I feel also not so hapyy with them too.
@Black Knights:
Ok, then I will do a 9 Black Knight squad.
Looking at your first list, it seems you didn't add a weapon to the Darkshroud. It must at least have a Heavy Bolter.
As for the Talon Master, he should always be escorting Sammael, so with just the -1 to hit with Hvy weapons, you get to reroll ones and twos anyway. They make a great tandem.
At some point, I would think about getting 1 or preferably 2 Dark Talons in the list.
I do not think the ravenwing champion or ancient are worth the points, a libby on a bike or with jump pack really works for me. I use him to debuf big enemy things with mind worm and or aversion. knights and baneblades get less scary when they can only hit on a 6+.
SpaceJS wrote: ..., a libby on a bike or with jump pack really works for me. I use him to debuf big enemy things with mind worm and or aversion. knights and baneblades get less scary when they can only hit on a 6+.
Good Idea! Thanks. I guess that a Libby with JP would be the better option becuase of the deep strike ability? Otherwise it could be hard to come in range with mind wipe.
However, with mind wipe it is bit gambling against an IK?
What happens, if I cast multiple times successful mind wipe on the same target?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bullyboy wrote: Looking at your first list, it seems you didn't add a weapon to the Darkshroud. It must at least have a Heavy Bolter.
SpaceJS wrote: ..., a libby on a bike or with jump pack really works for me. I use him to debuf big enemy things with mind worm and or aversion. knights and baneblades get less scary when they can only hit on a 6+.
Good Idea! Thanks. I guess that a Libby with JP would be the better option becuase of the deep strike ability? Otherwise it could be hard to come in range with mind wipe.
However, with mind wipe it is bit gambling against an IK?
What happens, if I cast multiple times successful mind wipe on the same target?
That is the really dirty part, it stacks and yes with jump pack
the one on the right, still in progress though. another good addition when you are using a few dreadnoughts and some other armor is a techmarine on bike with a conversion beamer
One good thing about the bike librarian is that you can cast spells after advancing, and he gets the auto advance of 6" from turbo boost, giving him an effective threat range of 38" (20" advance and 18" range) for mind wipe and 44" (20" + 24" range) for aversion.
Though the jump pack librarian has some advantages in that it has fly and can deep strike.
I have seen, that the Rune Priest have the same power as we have (-1 to hit roll). Debuff unit spam?
Couples of Libbys and Rune Priests and that nasty Super heavy hits on 7+ .
Does any Imperium faction have a power or ability to reduce the enemies Ld?
Bike Librarian is index-only. You can still use him, but he did not get the big points discount that other librarians got. And don't be surprised if tournaments stop allowing index units a year or two from now.
All that said, bike librarians are very mobile with turbo-boost and the T5 +1W helps a lot.
I've been running my Librarian on a Bike as an Aux Support Detachment from a vanilla chapter. He advances up and casts Null Zone. Its a gamble, but the effect on folks who bank on Invul saves is priceless.
I added a Talonmaster in Feb and I haven't looked back.
Maxamato wrote: I have seen, that the Rune Priest have the same power as we have (-1 to hit roll). Debuff unit spam?
Couples of Libbys and Rune Priests and that nasty Super heavy hits on 7+ .
Does any Imperium faction have a power or ability to reduce the enemies Ld?
of course , our own power Mind Wipe does that among other things
After looking at what people are using and suggesting, how would this list feel like? Not enough bodies? Ineffective? I am trying to keep both steady fire of plasma along with some mobility. Azrael and the Lieutenant would babysit the larger guns on the backline while Sammael with the Knights and Darkshroud harass and attempt to take objectives. The Heavy Bolters on the scouts are intended more for harassment so it gets harder to ignore the scouts. More fire aimed at them means less fire aimed at anything else. 1986 points total
Battalion Detachment
HQ -Azrael
-Sammael in Sableclaw
Eldarsif; your list has two key problems in my view.
1. Based on my experience in running a pure primaris list, relying on plasma as your sole source of anti tank/monster is a bad idea. Too many things have damage reduction or BS reduction.
2. MSU. You have 16 drops assuming no-one rides in the razorbacks during deployment. I can't see anyone who would want to be inside - Azrael's not doing his job if he's not on the field protecting others with his invulnerable, and the devastators will suffer the -1 to hit if they start off mounted. Additionally, your black knights and hellblasters aren't going to get the full benefit of WftDA because they're in small squads.
Sacrificing the 1 CP from the Outrider detachment allows you to combine the black knights and the hellblasters. Swap the primaris lieutenant for a standard lieutenant, and he can hop inside a razorback during deployment. Now you only have 13 drops - significantly increasing your chance of finishing deployment first. This should also free up about 10 points, which combined with the 14 you already have is more than enough to upgrade your plasma cannons to lascannons.
With the new +1 cover strat for going 2nd, does that possibly allow talk of the LRC being used as a delivery system for Knights + asmodai/Ancient again. A 1+ Land Raider is quite a tough cookie (especially under the darkshroud umbrella turn one), or is the stormraven still better (-2 to hit plus a 2+ save now). Stormraven, 5 knights, asmodai, 2 dark talons and darkshroud is still a huge chunk of points though.
Vector Strike wrote: Stormraven is cheaper, faster, cooler and has better weapons. Also, can bring along a dreadnought!
Technically the typical LRC is cheaper than the Stormraven but has much worse weapons. Only saving grace is the T8 and 2+ armour, but loses twin las and twin MM with the addition of twin AC and and a SB. It is faster and harder to hit which tells me the basic LR body should come down about 40-50pts.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The basic Land Raider can also be stopped by a single Gaunt charging it. No thanks.
the Intractable stratagem is costly at 2CP, but always worth it for a Land Raider to Fall Back and shoot. this is why the Dark Angels Land Raider is better than most chapters'.
The main problem with a Land Raider is that there are a lot of Imperial Knights in the current competitive meta, so a lot of lists are tooled up to kill them. These same tools are even more effective at killing a Land Raider, as they are less durable in general than a Knight. There are also just plain more points-efficient choices out there.
I really like your list, it's great that you're playing pure Dark Angels. What armies/lists are you facing mostly ? As I don't have many models yet for my DA I'm still wondering what are the best Troop taxes to fill a Batallion, and 2x5 Scouts + 5 Intercessors looks great. Are you satisfied with the Scouts' loadout ? Do they get targeted early ? Same thing for the Intercessors, I have 2x5 of them but if I go with only one squad it would allow me to model some characters with the 5 others, and that would be great. But I wouldn't like to destroy 5 Intercessors if I need them
How do you use your Librarian ? Deep strike near the anti-tank, Aversion them, then lock them in CC ?
What's your star made of ? Azrael, the Hellblasters I guess, and what else ?
Aaranis wrote: I really like your list, it's great that you're playing pure Dark Angels. What armies/lists are you facing mostly ? As I don't have many models yet for my DA I'm still wondering what are the best Troop taxes to fill a Batallion, and 2x5 Scouts + 5 Intercessors looks great. Are you satisfied with the Scouts' loadout ? Do they get targeted early ? Same thing for the Intercessors, I have 2x5 of them but if I go with only one squad it would allow me to model some characters with the 5 others, and that would be great. But I wouldn't like to destroy 5 Intercessors if I need them
How do you use your Librarian ? Deep strike near the anti-tank, Aversion them, then lock them in CC ?
What's your star made of ? Azrael, the Hellblasters I guess, and what else ?
Thanks in advance !
I face ad mech, tyranids and necrons mostly. for me the scouts are there to screen and not do much else, i try to deploy them in full cover most of the time. intercessors are there to defend objectives. I deep strike my librarian and he goes after the anti-tank using mind wipe and aversion and locks them in cc,
My star is Azrael with ancient, lieutenant, hellblasters and the leviathan in front so it also benefits from the re-rols
SpaceJS wrote: My star is Azrael with ancient, lieutenant, hellblasters and the leviathan in front so it also benefits from the re-rols
Not sure but what you should put your Sicaran Venator in front to get the rerolls (just don't block your firing arcs!), because the Leviathan gets to reroll 1's already if he sits still thanks to Grim Resolve. Also, a Ravenwing Darkshroud would do you some good to reduce incoming damage or at least draw some fire.
Wondering about a few things. Are Company Champions still good ? I was thinking 3 along with maybe Asmodai for +1A, and some Veterans with storm bolters to tank the wounds and deal with the chaff. All of them in a Termite Assault Drill (that thing is fantastic) so that the vehicle can go monster-hunting too.
SpaceJS wrote: My star is Azrael with ancient, lieutenant, hellblasters and the leviathan in front so it also benefits from the re-rols
Not sure but what you should put your Sicaran Venator in front to get the rerolls (just don't block your firing arcs!), because the Leviathan gets to reroll 1's already if he sits still thanks to Grim Resolve. Also, a Ravenwing Darkshroud would do you some good to reduce incoming damage or at least draw some fire.
I generally start moving the star up the battlefield so no chance for grim resolve and i move the venator behind the star. The venator also starts in complete cover and yes a darkshroud would help but at 1750 you need to make choices
I’m wondering, what people think about a Mass Hellblaster list? Is this worth in an competitive area?
Also, I should have they have the RF version or the assault ones?
I’m also not sure how to play.
Should I play them with Azrael and to bubble wrap or should I do combat squads and jump around on the board with out Azrael ?
Oldman Lee wrote: Hi all anyone try a tank army for dark Angels I know it won't be the most competitive list on the planet but would be something different?
I'd like to see a triple Repulsor list in action. Having tanks with Fly would be great to keep them shooting. They would probably go down pretty hard though to lists geared to kill Knights.
Question for you guys. Here's a summary of the situation. I was running a librarian on a bike yesterday to support my ravenwing and he had Aversion and Mind Wipe.
I successfully cast both of those abilities on his Knight Valiant. So, his WS/BS (permanently) is +1 making him 5+/4+ respectively to hit. Aversion gives the knight another -1 to hit. I then degraded the knight to its second bracket making its WS/BS now 6+/5+ and a -1 to hit.
If this Knight were to target anything near my Darkshroud, that Knight would then have a -2 to hit (Aversion, Darkshroud Aura) making him hit on 7+. Is that possible?
My friend said that 6's hit regardless of modifiers and since it was a friendly game I didn't really press the issue. Is this true? I searched through the base rules and didn't see anything about 6's always hitting or is there something in one of the FAQ's? Thank you!
turmoil wrote: Question for you guys. Here's a summary of the situation. I was running a librarian on a bike yesterday to support my ravenwing and he had Aversion and Mind Wipe.
I successfully cast both of those abilities on his Knight Valiant. So, his WS/BS (permanently) is +1 making him 5+/4+ respectively to hit. Aversion gives the knight another -1 to hit. I then degraded the knight to its second bracket making its WS/BS now 6+/5+ and a -1 to hit.
If this Knight were to target anything near my Darkshroud, that Knight would then have a -2 to hit (Aversion, Darkshroud Aura) making him hit on 7+. Is that possible?
My friend said that 6's hit regardless of modifiers and since it was a friendly game I didn't really press the issue. Is this true? I searched through the base rules and didn't see anything about 6's always hitting or is there something in one of the FAQ's? Thank you!
Your friend is mistaken, there are effectively ways to negate shooting/attacking in CC if modifiers are heavy enough. There's no rule saying that 6s always hit, only that 1s always miss.
That's what I thought. Thanks for the support guys!
I didn't want to slow our game down by dragging out the rulebook, but good to know for future games.
Hey guys, so I've always loved Chaplains in 40k, they're my favourite HQ models from the whole SM range and DA have even cooler Chaplains. So I'd like to build a list around a Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought as I could go wild on the conversion (I'd take a Redemptor Dread for this) and I love the idea of a force led by this model.
So I wanted to ask if anyone here had experience playing him, and what did you think of it ? I'm aiming at playing mono-DA, with a list that packs a punch in CC if possible. Not looking to fight the toughest lists out there but definitely having my chances with most armies, so that it stays fun for my opponent and I.
Right now I'm wondering on his loadout, I don't believe the 2 CCW are necessary, as there should be another character nearby for rerolls anyway, and the price of the second CCW is high enough. So I'm thinking CCW + Assault Cannon + Storm Bolter for 183 pts.
And also, which units would best benefit from his +1S in CC ? DW Knights would hit at S10, which is not much of a bump from S8 except against T8. Black Knights with Corvus Hammers would hit on S6, but S5 is already good enough I believe. Could wound T3 on 2+ but I wouldn't charge chaff with these would I ?
As for the delivery system, either he footslog and is protected by his Character rule, or he's loaded up in a Stormraven. Now I see the benefits of a Stormraven for transporting DW Knights and such, but I'm not a fan of the model and playing Flyers in general. And that would cost me another good chunk of money. I feel like the Stormraven would be to juicy a target if it was full of DW Knights + a few support characters + my Dread Warlord, too.
Aaranis wrote: Hey guys, so I've always loved Chaplains in 40k, they're my favourite HQ models from the whole SM range and DA have even cooler Chaplains. So I'd like to build a list around a Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought as I could go wild on the conversion (I'd take a Redemptor Dread for this) and I love the idea of a force led by this model.
So I wanted to ask if anyone here had experience playing him, and what did you think of it ? I'm aiming at playing mono-DA, with a list that packs a punch in CC if possible. Not looking to fight the toughest lists out there but definitely having my chances with most armies, so that it stays fun for my opponent and I.
Right now I'm wondering on his loadout, I don't believe the 2 CCW are necessary, as there should be another character nearby for rerolls anyway, and the price of the second CCW is high enough. So I'm thinking CCW + Assault Cannon + Storm Bolter for 183 pts.
And also, which units would best benefit from his +1S in CC ? DW Knights would hit at S10, which is not much of a bump from S8 except against T8. Black Knights with Corvus Hammers would hit on S6, but S5 is already good enough I believe. Could wound T3 on 2+ but I wouldn't charge chaff with these would I ?
As for the delivery system, either he footslog and is protected by his Character rule, or he's loaded up in a Stormraven. Now I see the benefits of a Stormraven for transporting DW Knights and such, but I'm not a fan of the model and playing Flyers in general. And that would cost me another good chunk of money. I feel like the Stormraven would be to juicy a target if it was full of DW Knights + a few support characters + my Dread Warlord, too.
Thanks in advance for the advice !
i would not play against you if are using a redemptor dreadnought as a base for a chaplain dreadnought is it is really not the correct size, just use a normeal venerable one
So actually I had a big gift from a friend who stopped his Primaris project and got 9 Inceptors, 1 Redemptor Dreadnought, 15 Intercessors, 14 Hellblasters, a Primaris Captain in Gravis, a Primaris Ancient and a Primaris Lieutenant. So now I have a much wider range to build my lists so I'm pretty happy. I played a 1500 pts game today against a beginner (4-5 games under his belt) playing mono-Custodes, so I had a mono-DA list that I wrote to be fun and not too much tryhard, here it is:
- 3x5 Intercessors w/ grenade launcher each
- 3 Company Champions
- 3 Inceptors with bolters
Vanguard:
- Interrogator-Chaplain Terminator, Master of Maneuver, Eye of the Unseen
- DW Ancient with claws
- 5 DW Knights
- Primaris Ancient
- Redemptor Dread, plasma, Onslaught cannon, 2 storm bolters, Icarus
I managed to table him at 6th turn, and won 13-7 on objectives. He played 3x3 jetbikes, 2x3 regular Custodians, a Shield-Captain as warlord, and a Vexilla guy on foot.
First turn he killed one Intercessor and strike his Warlord on an objective he needed close to my lines. My turn I shoot the Warlord with 5 Intercessors, Librarian, 3 Inceptors and all the dread's guns but he survives with 2W. The I strike the Knights, Chaplain and Ancient behind a wall (ruin) and charge 9" with all of them through to get a unit of Bikes, which the Knights destroy entirely. They pile-in on the second unit of Bikes but my Ancient and Chaplain are too far away and didn't have the right to consolidate because they had no Fight phase.
Turn two, he disengaged the bikes, leaving my guys in the open, and shot my Knights with 72 bolter shots from the two bike units. He killed another Intercessor with his Warlord and stood there as he had +2A while near and objective. My turn I Mind Worm him, leaving him with 1W, to charge him later with the Librarian, Lieutenant and 4 Intercessors so as to win 1+1d3 (which I rolled 3) VP by destroying him in CC. With the Chaplain and Ancient I climbed a ruin to charge 3 Custodians, I killed one and suffered a few wounds on each guy. Meanwhile I shot the Bikes with the rest, dealing a few wounds to rattle them down each turn.
Then, to cut short, I lost my Warlord against the remaining Custodian who survived with 1W all alone, my DW Ancient wasn't engaged anymore and climbed down to take part in a massive charge against a bike to destroy it but got killed (the bike too). I lost my Librarian in CC against three Custodians due to a failed charge, along with 3 Intercessors. Afterwards the remaining bike got punched by the Redemptor, the Custodian who killed my Chaplain got gunned down by Inceptors (they died afterwards in CC against two bikes). The final fight was one of my Company Champions who killed the Vexilla all by himself in two turns (and survived the swings back), my Lt who killed two Custodians and died, and finally my Redemptor who crushed the last Custodian.
It was a fun game, although I think my opponent could have made much more damaged had he manoeuvred his Bikes differently, and if he didn't leave his Warlord all alone. On my side I think Company Champions are nice although two of them just twiddled their thumbs. My Ancient was useless as nobody got shot close to him, and the Lt's rerolls + offensive power on the charge with the Heavenfall Blade where very useful. The Intercessors are solid troops and dealt a steady amount of damage even on the T6 bikes, while resisting in their 2+ in cover. The Redemptor was fun, being a DA and rerolling his 1s to Hit without moving makes him a nice support unit, but once he starts moving the shooting gets significantly worse. He punches hard in CC though. Against a list with more ranged anti-tank he will die early though. and I loved my Knights even if they died early. It confirms me that when they do their charge they can roll over anything. The Chaplain was not really great though, he lacks punch as the Crozius is fairly weak, only the rerollable hits were nice.
axisofentropy wrote: Strap a plasma pistol and a 32mm base on the gravis captain, now he's Azrael.
I already have a conversion for Azrael (or just my custom chapter master) in the works based on a Primaris, I just need to learn how to sculpt robes in GS decently and he's good ! The profile of the Gravis Captain looks good to me, though. Only problem may be the mobility but depending on the list I'm facing it's the enemy who comes in my face most of the time anyway.
Oldman Lee wrote: Hey guys
Do people think you can make a competitive ravenwing list with out dark talons ?
From my experience - no.
Best units in our codex are dark talons, talon master, samael on sable claw and plasma inceptors with plasma.
Blood angels seem to be very good allies, librarian dreadnoght , scouts and captains are great for a battaliaon detachment.
Other than that we have an azrael gunline which gets overwhelmed by horde armies easily
Any lists around terminators are just for fun play
Which do you guys feel is better plasma inceptors or black knights? Plasma inceptors get more shots, but are worse in CC, they can deep strike, but can't benefit from ravenwing auras/abilities/stratagems, are slower, but have the fly keyword.
Inceptors by a country mile. The ability to hide in reserves is crucial for an expensive unit like that. Black Knights can try to hide out of LOS, but often that means they won't be doing anything interesting on the first turn anyway. Plus, the firepower doesn't even compare between the two. Black Knights really don't want to be in CC either, although they are admittedly better if they end up in that situation. But surviving Inceptors can fall back and shoot without having to spend 2 CP on Intractable.
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