I feel like Belial would be better for the rerolls (instead of Ezekiel), but then again having psychic powers to buff your DWK and debuff your enemies is also useful.

The 2k version has Belial leading a 10 man Deathwing Terminator squad with double Cyclones and two chainfists.

Ezekiel leading the Deathwing Knights.

Plus some other fun stuff.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I feel like Belial would be better for the rerolls (instead of Ezekiel), but then again having psychic powers to buff your DWK and debuff your enemies is also useful.

Righteous Repugnance on a unit of DWK is golden, it's better to take Ezekiel if you have only one unit of termies in your list.

Just for S+G I put together a deathwing list yesterday.

basically it was..

Ezekiel
Belial
7 DW Knights, watcher.
5 DW terms, cyclone, 1 TH/SS
5 DW terms, cyclone, 1 TH/SS
Dread with twin las, DCCW
LRC with MM, SB
LR SB
LR SB

Just below 2000pts, 5CP (lol)

would be fun to run one time I guess

People don't realize how good 2 Venerable Dreads with Twin Lascannons and close combat weapons are until they get on you in close combat.

When I played in the local team tournament last weekend in the last game they killed over 1k worth of stuff by themselves. Note that we each brought 1k lists.

My 2k version of it would have tabled my last opponents by itself with no help.

Timur wrote:

Aeri wrote:
Isn't the plasma Executioner better?

There is always the risk that plasma executioner will get killed before it even shoots.

Plasma inceptors along with phobos leutenant will be safe in reserves

Point of order - my SM Codex specifies that Target Priority has to be used on a Phobos unit, and that doesn’t apply to Inceptors or Executioners

 lindsay40k wrote:

Timur wrote:

Aeri wrote:
Isn't the plasma Executioner better?

There is always the risk that plasma executioner will get killed before it even shoots.

Plasma inceptors along with phobos leutenant will be safe in reserves

Point of order - my SM Codex specifies that Target Priority has to be used on a Phobos unit, and that doesn’t apply to Inceptors or Executioners

Dark Angels' version of that trait has not been updated yet, so it can be used on a non-Phobos unit. GW specifically excluded DA, BA, SW, etc. from using the stuff in the new Codex: Space Marines, so that means we get to use the previously published versions of the Phobos warlord traits as well as the previous point costs of everything (meaning while we pay more for Tactical and Assault Marines we pay less for Thunder Hammers on our characters).

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

Timur wrote:

Aeri wrote:
Isn't the plasma Executioner better?

There is always the risk that plasma executioner will get killed before it even shoots.

Plasma inceptors along with phobos leutenant will be safe in reserves

Point of order - my SM Codex specifies that Target Priority has to be used on a Phobos unit, and that doesn’t apply to Inceptors or Executioners

Dark Angels' version of that trait has not been updated yet, so it can be used on a non-Phobos unit. GW specifically excluded DA, BA, SW, etc. from using the stuff in the new Codex: Space Marines, so that means we get to use the previously published versions of the Phobos warlord traits as well as the previous point costs of everything (meaning while we pay more for Tactical and Assault Marines we pay less for Thunder Hammers on our characters).

At least until CA2019 comes out

Black Knights are going to be 34 points a model after Chapter Approved 2019 comes out apparently

 Reivax26 wrote:
Black Knights are going to be 34 points a model after Chapter Approved 2019 comes out apparently

Obviously this is not the whole picture, but does that make them usable over Plasma Inceptors? My gut instinct is that it does not since they are still only 2 wounds without an invuln if you go second, and Inceptors can be placed in reserves and brought down when they need to delete something off the board...

But it does mean that you can take almost twice as many Black Knights as you can Inceptors and you can easily give them a 4++ once you start moving them. Now if only Plasma dealt MW instead of outright killing models.

I hope to see some point reductions for deathwing as well.

abyrn wrote:

 Reivax26 wrote:
Black Knights are going to be 34 points a model after Chapter Approved 2019 comes out apparently

Obviously this is not the whole picture, but does that make them usable over Plasma Inceptors? My gut instinct is that it does not since they are still only 2 wounds without an invuln if you go second, and Inceptors can be placed in reserves and brought down when they need to delete something off the board...

But it does mean that you can take almost twice as many Black Knights as you can Inceptors and you can easily give them a 4++ once you start moving them. Now if only Plasma dealt MW instead of outright killing models.

They also get half as many shots on average as an Inceptor so they need almost twice as many to stay on par.

The new BA article says they'll get Doctrines and Litanies, so we can expect getting those too in our Psychic Awakening book.

What makes me wonder why flavored marines couldn't get them from the get-go...?

I think that the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels are all getting specific Litanies like the Templars did.

It would make sense if the Blood Angels or Wolves had a +1 version of the Assault Doctrine.

I could see us getting a +1 version of Tactical or Devastator depending on the Warlord. That's something that would make sense to me actually. Each of the characters in the lore are quite a bit different so having them effect your army in a variety of ways when they are in command seems logical.

Has anyone thought about spamming RWBK after the points drop on them?

Running 2 squads , 10 dudes in each supported by darkshroud, sammy and talonmaster could be fun.
Throw in 2 dark talons and upgrade to ravenwing attack squadron for the +1 to hit buffs and close combat shenanigans

I don't think I'll run more than one unit of RWBK ever, but at least now I can consider running one instead of zero. Inceptors are still probably better, but Black Knights get good synergy with Sammael, the RWAS from Vigilus, etc. The problem is that 2-damage weapons are way too common. A typical Tau tournament list with 3 Riptides will very easily mulch Black Knights, and a Leviathan Dread with SCA can delete an entire unit of them in one turn fairly easily. Offensively they aren't bad, with a potential 38" threat range (assuming you advance and pop Speed of the Raven) and potentially 20 S8 AP-3 D3 shots (supercharging and Weapons from the Dark Age). Not as many shots per model as Inceptors, but not as swingy either.

One really cheeky trick I've thought about with RWBK is to charge something, fight it, and use the Vigilus strat to immediately run away. However, instead of going back the way you came, send the bikes around the enemy unit towards your opponent's backfield. Then, pop Honor the Chapter to allow your guys to bad touch your opponent's tanks and stuff. You could potentially even pull off some wrap tricks if you do it right. Sure you don't get to swing, but at least if you wrap something your opponent can't shoot your Black Knights. On your next turn, you can fall back and use Intractable if you need your Black Knights to shoot. Yes, that's a lot of CP for a gimmick, but it could at least be hilarious.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I don't think I'll run more than one unit of RWBK ever, but at least now I can consider running one instead of zero. Inceptors are still probably better, but Black Knights get good synergy with Sammael, the RWAS from Vigilus, etc. The problem is that 2-damage weapons are way too common. A typical Tau tournament list with 3 Riptides will very easily mulch Black Knights, and a Leviathan Dread with SCA can delete an entire unit of them in one turn fairly easily. Offensively they aren't bad, with a potential 38" threat range (assuming you advance and pop Speed of the Raven) and potentially 20 S8 AP-3 D3 shots (supercharging and Weapons from the Dark Age). Not as many shots per model as Inceptors, but not as swingy either.

One really cheeky trick I've thought about with RWBK is to charge something, fight it, and use the Vigilus strat to immediately run away. However, instead of going back the way you came, send the bikes around the enemy unit towards your opponent's backfield. Then, pop Honor the Chapter to allow your guys to bad touch your opponent's tanks and stuff. You could potentially even pull off some wrap tricks if you do it right. Sure you don't get to swing, but at least if you wrap something your opponent can't shoot your Black Knights. On your next turn, you can fall back and use Intractable if you need your Black Knights to shoot. Yes, that's a lot of CP for a gimmick, but it could at least be hilarious.

You cannot get in base contact when leaving combat

 Vector Strike wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I don't think I'll run more than one unit of RWBK ever, but at least now I can consider running one instead of zero. Inceptors are still probably better, but Black Knights get good synergy with Sammael, the RWAS from Vigilus, etc. The problem is that 2-damage weapons are way too common. A typical Tau tournament list with 3 Riptides will very easily mulch Black Knights, and a Leviathan Dread with SCA can delete an entire unit of them in one turn fairly easily. Offensively they aren't bad, with a potential 38" threat range (assuming you advance and pop Speed of the Raven) and potentially 20 S8 AP-3 D3 shots (supercharging and Weapons from the Dark Age). Not as many shots per model as Inceptors, but not as swingy either.

One really cheeky trick I've thought about with RWBK is to charge something, fight it, and use the Vigilus strat to immediately run away. However, instead of going back the way you came, send the bikes around the enemy unit towards your opponent's backfield. Then, pop Honor the Chapter to allow your guys to bad touch your opponent's tanks and stuff. You could potentially even pull off some wrap tricks if you do it right. Sure you don't get to swing, but at least if you wrap something your opponent can't shoot your Black Knights. On your next turn, you can fall back and use Intractable if you need your Black Knights to shoot. Yes, that's a lot of CP for a gimmick, but it could at least be hilarious.

You cannot get in base contact when leaving combat

You can get in base contact using Honor the Chapter to "activate" a second time in the fight phase. Although you don't get to fight again, you get to activate a second time, for a 3" consolidate and a 3" pile in, at the end of which you can be in base contact with something. I'm unsure if you can be within 1" after the consolidate with something you did not declare a charge against, but you can after the pile in for sure. DA still get to use the original honor the chapter stratagem which is very badly written... RAW you can select any unit to fight, including one that did not charge (fight a second time is meaningless RAW since it comes after the requirement, but RAI it's pretty clear you should be selecting a unit in combat). The new wording states you have to be within 1" of a unit, i.e. in combat so this trick won't work once we get new stratagems.

Over on the Unforgiven Reddit page someone leaked them the Dark Angels section of Chapter Approved along with all the other factions. This is a summary of ours:

Asmodai 110
Azrael 150
Belial 125
Ezekiel 110
Sammael on Sableclaw 200
Sammael on Corvex 140
Devastators 11 per
Armorium Cherub 5
Eliminator 18
Hellblaster 18
Hunter 75
Land Raider 180
Land Raider Crusader 200
Land Raider Redeemer 180
Repulsor Executioner 215
Stalker 75
Vindicator 125
Black Knights 34

Based on that, the immediate standout changes to me are Azrael dropping by a whopping 30 points (and here I thought he'd possibly go UP), Eliminators going down by 3 (so 21 ppm with wargear), and RWBK down by 4 ppm. Sammy on his bike dropped significantly also, and even Sableclaw is cheaper now. Based on this info they unfortunately didn't touch any of our flyers even though both the Nephilim and Stormraven are not good at their current price point. However, I notice that this list seems to only include the named characters, Heavy Support choices, and Black Knights (which were already leaked by GW themselves), so maybe there are other things that did get some drops.

The Predator was mentioned as going down too but not by how much.

I like these point drops

That spares me 27 points from 3 squads of elimitaors
and 16 for sammy

Not much, but still good

Asrael points drop makes me want to play a gunline again, Maybe something like Azrael + agressors that charge forward while devastators sit back

Azrael Castle formation with some Dreadnoughts providing long range support and close combat support.

Deredeos and Leviathans could provide some serious support

The leak for DA was just one page with some of the heavy support, all of the named characters, and some of the wargear. The page was very blurry and the wargear section was pretty much unreadable, so this is not the full extent of the points changes. We should get the full changes soon when the NDA drops.

I really hope to see some terminator point changes along with even cheaper land speeders.

Asmodai together with some DWK is still one of my favourite combos. With 2extra attacks on the charge and rerolls they pretty much killwhatever they charge.

Changes as follows from D6Evolution youtube channel:

Black Knights down 4
Land Speeder Vengeance down 34
Ravenwing Land Speeder down 5
Nephilim down 33
Dark Talon down 15
DW Ancient down 48 (!)
DW Champion down 28
DW Apothecary down 5
DWK down 2
RW Ancient down 37
RW Champion down 36
RW Apothecary down 32

Nice

Looks good - all the RW/DW Elites Characters were way overpriced. I'm not saying they will make top table lists now, but it's something. Maybe the Vengeance will,see some play now? Azrael coming down was a nice surprise.

My Ravenwing list now has a little more breathing room for extra support. I still find my RWBK to be my star unit and even they got a little cheaper.

Curious to see what new rules we get in CA19. The preciew implied something is coming, or maybe I read what I wanted to see?

Interesting reveal. After Blood of Baal which is Blood Angels vs Tyranids, we get Dark Angels and Grey Knights vs Thousand Sons. The trailer makes it sound like we are fighting in the ruins of Prospero.

Full reveal on Christmas day apparently.

 Reivax26 wrote:
Interesting reveal. After Blood of Baal which is Blood Angels vs Tyranids, we get Dark Angels and Grey Knights vs Thousand Sons. The trailer makes it sound like we are fighting in the ruins of Prospero.

Full reveal on Christmas day apparently.

Just saw that teaser. Wonder if Azrael is going to cross the Primaris Rubicon? Doesn't jive with the points drop, but hey.

Could it be a new named character maybe?

 Reivax26 wrote:
Could it be a new named character maybe?

I'm all for change as long as everything stays the same.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 Reivax26 wrote:
Could it be a new named character maybe?

I'm all for change as long as everything stays the same.

Ahh it is our way isn't it.

But if those point decreases are correct it could make my Dreadwing a bit better as honestly the Ancient was a bit over priced

As predicted, BA got updated phobos warlord traits, which means no more +1 to hit on plasma weapons when our supplement drops.
Unless we get a stratagem that does the same

Timur wrote:
As predicted, BA got updated phobos warlord traits, which means no more +1 to hit on plasma weapons when our supplement drops.
Unless we get a stratagem that does the same

Once our supplement drops we can us the +1 to hit chaplain prayer instead. It's not as reliable since it needs a 3+ and requires the chaplain to start on the board, but it is something.

Well, with Azrael going down and no info on Ezekiel, I think the latter will be Primarised, but the former won't

 Vector Strike wrote:
Well, with Azrael going down and no info on Ezekiel, I think the latter will be Primarised, but the former won't

Ezekiel dropped in points too

I thought Ezekiel and Asmodai both dropped to 110?

I read an article by Goonhammer about the CA changes and how it'll affect how each army plays, and they talked a bit about Dark Angels. Pretty much all of our characters got price drops with the notable exception of the Ravenwing Talonmaster, who stayed the same. With characters in pretty much all armies going down in points, this is almost like a soft nerf. It is nice to hear that both of our planes got price cuts, but unfortunately no mention of the Stormraven which means it'll probably remain non-competitive. It's safe to assume that whichever Psychic Awakening book includes DA will give us Doctrines given that Blood Angels got them in theirs, so maybe, just maybe, DA will be fairly strong in the future.

bullyboy wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Well, with Azrael going down and no info on Ezekiel, I think the latter will be Primarised, but the former won't

Ezekiel dropped in points too

Reivax26 wrote:I thought Ezekiel and Asmodai both dropped to 110?

Oopsie! Then all bets are off

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I read an article by Goonhammer about the CA changes and how it'll affect how each army plays, and they talked a bit about Dark Angels. Pretty much all of our characters got price drops with the notable exception of the Ravenwing Talonmaster, who stayed the same. With characters in pretty much all armies going down in points, this is almost like a soft nerf. It is nice to hear that both of our planes got price cuts, but unfortunately no mention of the Stormraven which means it'll probably remain non-competitive. It's safe to assume that whichever Psychic Awakening book includes DA will give us Doctrines given that Blood Angels got them in theirs, so maybe, just maybe, DA will be fairly strong in the future.

We'll find out soon enough, DAs are in the next book. More apparently teased on Xmas day.

The points drop across the board has helped my 2k list out quite a bit. I will be playtesting it sometime soon.

I'm very much hoping there is an updated primaris Azrael - his model is in dire need of an update, his model was what mid-90's?

I think a Primaris Azrael would be awesome for sure, together with asmodai and Ezekiel.

Would be awesome to have the psychic awakening awaken something - or a certain somebody - aswell.
It certainly is time for another primarch to appear.

I agree with that notion. It would be epic to see the Lion return.

I am wondering what cool thing we are going to get where it relates to Combat Doctrines. I can guess that Ravenwing and Deathwing are going to love the Tactical Doctrine based on their loadouts.

I want us to have some unique Litanies and Psychic Powers though.

Any thoughts on what the new Powers and Litanies might be?

 Reivax26 wrote:
I am wondering what cool thing we are going to get where it relates to Combat Doctrines. I can guess that Ravenwing and Deathwing are going to love the Tactical Doctrine based on their loadouts.

I want us to have some unique Litanies and Psychic Powers though.

Any thoughts on what the new Powers and Litanies might be?

We might not get new Psychic powers, Blood Angels did not get access to any new ones.

They did get a Chapter specific Litany along with the new range of litanies, so I would expect that as well. Potentially Interrogator-Chaplains might get access to a different list of litanies, much like how BT get an extra set of them in lieu of psychic powers.

My big question is if our Chapter Tactic is going to get revisited. Technically we already have a "double" chapter tactic (reroll 1's to hit when not moving and only lose 1 model to morale) but both of these two are pretty weak. Hopefully they will get improved. I'm also wondering if the PA book extended chapter tactics for Blood Angels to the rest of their range or if it is still only for Dreadnoughts, Bikers, and Infantry. No one is talking about it because the BA tactic is not very useful for vehicles, though it would affect if the Invictor suit gets the tactic.

My guess is that we will get an enhanced Devastator Doctrine, since GW seems to think that we are mostly a gunline army, and that SW will get an enhanced Tactical Doctrine, rounding out one of each doctrine for the three non-codex chapters, but that is just a wild guess. I would love it if RW and DW got different enhanced doctrines than greenwing, since that could allow us to make some cool multi-purpose lists or dedicated board control or combat lists.

I'm hoping that we get sort of three "mini" super doctrines.

Buff Ravenwing in devastator, buff Greenwing in tactical, and buff Deathwing in Assault.

DA in general should keep Grim Resolve as-is.

Maybe Ravenwing ignores the penalty to move and shoot heavy in devastator or can advance and treat all weapons as assault.

In Tactical doctrine Greenwing should get re-roll 1's even if they move and either make plasma safe or give plasma +1AP or +1D and then re-work weapons of the dark age to do the opposite of what the Tactical buff gives.

Assault doctrine should give Deathwing the ability to advance and charge or maybe to deepstrike at 7" or 8" away instead of 9". Or perhaps a bonus attack or something would be more in-line with what the other supplements are getting.

Having three different mini super doctrines gives players choices for what they want to focus on and makes it so there are tradeoffs on whether or not you want to advance between doctrines.

I want a Ravenwing unit to be able to flank and come in from any table edge.

Or a stratagem that allows terminator units to drop within 6 ignoring enemy units 9 inch bubble

Slaul wrote:
I'm hoping that we get sort of three "mini" super doctrines.

Buff Ravenwing in devastator, buff Greenwing in tactical, and buff Deathwing in Assault.

???
Ravenwing uses Rapid Fire much more than Heavy. I hope Greenwing gets Devastator buff, not Ravenwing.

Agreed. Ravenwing and Deathwing should get the Tactical buff. Greenwing gets Devastator and then Deathwing Knights and Assault Squads get Assault buff.

It might actually make people think about running an Assault squad. I am currently putting together my own version of the Azrael castle formation and it's going to have an Assault squad as a counter charge unit/objective grabber.

 Vector Strike wrote:

Slaul wrote:
I'm hoping that we get sort of three "mini" super doctrines.

Buff Ravenwing in devastator, buff Greenwing in tactical, and buff Deathwing in Assault.

???
Ravenwing uses Rapid Fire much more than Heavy. I hope Greenwing gets Devastator buff, not Ravenwing.

The idea was to provide more options to Dark Angels. Sure Ravenwing uses more Rapid Fire now, partly because hitting on 4 or 5's after moving sucks and isn't worth it.

If Ravenwing ignored the penalty to move and shoot heavy for example you might see more land speeders get used. I'd love to put together a bunch of landspeeders but its just not worth it right now.

What I'm most worried that DA will get with the new supplement is just a "buff" to the Azrael gunline build that GW keeps trying to force on DA. It's not that good. DA needs options for other builds, not buffs to a bad build.

Did the talon master go down in points at all?

Jimbobbyish wrote:
Did the talon master go down in points at all?

No, still the same

Opinion question:

Which is better the Leviathan Dread or the Sicaran tank? Specifically the Venator variant that destroys tanks.

What are Dark Angels best options against Craftworld Eldar flier/psyker heavy lists? I've been pondering list options, but that seems a tough matchup for us.

I have had the most success killing fliers with repulsor executioners with heavy laser destroyer.

As long as you have a full reroll aura a repulsor executioner should more or less knock down a flier a turn.

Deredeo Dreadnought with the Autocannon battery can wreck flyers. If you don't move you hit on a 2+, with a +1 to hit flyers.

8 str8 shots that deal 2 damage each

 Reivax26 wrote:
Opinion question:

Which is better the Leviathan Dread or the Sicaran tank? Specifically the Venator variant that destroys tanks.

Leviathan with Storm Cannons all day every day. 20 S7 AP-2 D2 shots is good against a lot of targets, especially with reroll buffs like Lieutenants and Azrael (if you sit still you don't even need Azrael). Range can be an issue, though.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Reivax26 wrote:
Opinion question:

Which is better the Leviathan Dread or the Sicaran tank? Specifically the Venator variant that destroys tanks.

Leviathan with Storm Cannons all day every day. 20 S7 AP-2 D2 shots is good against a lot of targets, especially with reroll buffs like Lieutenants and Azrael (if you sit still you don't even need Azrael). Range can be an issue, though.

IMO using Leviathans with Storm Cannons as anti-air basically relies on your opponent mis-positioning and allowing you to shoot them down. 24" is too easy to play around, especially if they are CWE flyers.

Slaul wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Reivax26 wrote:
Opinion question:

Which is better the Leviathan Dread or the Sicaran tank? Specifically the Venator variant that destroys tanks.

Leviathan with Storm Cannons all day every day. 20 S7 AP-2 D2 shots is good against a lot of targets, especially with reroll buffs like Lieutenants and Azrael (if you sit still you don't even need Azrael). Range can be an issue, though.

IMO using Leviathans with Storm Cannons as anti-air basically relies on your opponent mis-positioning and allowing you to shoot them down. 24" is too easy to play around, especially if they are CWE flyers.

I wasn't speaking about anti-air, specifically. I meant as a general purpose heavy unit. Anti-air is one thing a Leviathan can't do well, although if it can somehow get in range it'll knock just about any flyer out of the sky.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Slaul wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Reivax26 wrote:
Opinion question:

Which is better the Leviathan Dread or the Sicaran tank? Specifically the Venator variant that destroys tanks.

Leviathan with Storm Cannons all day every day. 20 S7 AP-2 D2 shots is good against a lot of targets, especially with reroll buffs like Lieutenants and Azrael (if you sit still you don't even need Azrael). Range can be an issue, though.

IMO using Leviathans with Storm Cannons as anti-air basically relies on your opponent mis-positioning and allowing you to shoot them down. 24" is too easy to play around, especially if they are CWE flyers.

I wasn't speaking about anti-air, specifically. I meant as a general purpose heavy unit. Anti-air is one thing a Leviathan can't do well, although if it can somehow get in range it'll knock just about any flyer out of the sky.

Ah, yeah you are right sorry. I got my wires crossed!

Not sure if you guys know yet, but the new model coming from the next PA, will be a Dark Angel. Sources from GW.

elook wrote:
Not sure if you guys know yet, but the new model coming from the next PA, will be a Dark Angel. Sources from GW.

not really shocking news, out of the 3 factions I would have put hard money on the character being a DA.

elook wrote:
Not sure if you guys know yet, but the new model coming from the next PA, will be a Dark Angel. Sources from GW.

My money is on it being a Primaris Azrael, but it could be Ezekiel or Asmodai that crosses the Rubicon Primaris. Or, perhaps it will be a new character. Either way, exciting times ahead, especially since it's likely we'll get doctrines like BA got.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

elook wrote:
Not sure if you guys know yet, but the new model coming from the next PA, will be a Dark Angel. Sources from GW.

My money is on it being a Primaris Azrael, but it could be Ezekiel or Asmodai that crosses the Rubicon Primaris. Or, perhaps it will be a new character. Either way, exciting times ahead, especially since it's likely we'll get doctrines like BA got.

And probably an upgraded chapter tactic as well.

I'm not holding my breath, I don't think GW will solve the Dark Angels problems with a Psychic Awakening book.

Though, some new stuff will hopefully make me not feel as bad playing DA

Slaul wrote:
I'm not holding my breath, I don't think GW will solve the Dark Angels problems with a Psychic Awakening book.

Though, some new stuff will hopefully make me not feel as bad playing DA

Just adding doctrines (plus our own super doctrine), chaplain litanies, and an addition to the chapter tactic will dramatically boost DA capabilities. If they decide to add more strats, relics, etc then it will be even better.
Right now I'm just looking for release date to determine if it comes out before the LVO deadline.

 bullyboy wrote:

Slaul wrote:
I'm not holding my breath, I don't think GW will solve the Dark Angels problems with a Psychic Awakening book.

Though, some new stuff will hopefully make me not feel as bad playing DA

Just adding doctrines (plus our own super doctrine), chaplain litanies, and an addition to the chapter tactic will dramatically boost DA capabilities. If they decide to add more strats, relics, etc then it will be even better.
Right now I'm just looking for release date to determine if it comes out before the LVO deadline.

Oh for sure, it will definitely help! I just don't expect it to be enough to be very competitive. I'm not even talking Iron Hands competitive, even 50%ish WR would be nice.

I think GW said the release of the next book is December 25th.

Slaul wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Slaul wrote:
I'm not holding my breath, I don't think GW will solve the Dark Angels problems with a Psychic Awakening book.

Though, some new stuff will hopefully make me not feel as bad playing DA

Just adding doctrines (plus our own super doctrine), chaplain litanies, and an addition to the chapter tactic will dramatically boost DA capabilities. If they decide to add more strats, relics, etc then it will be even better.
Right now I'm just looking for release date to determine if it comes out before the LVO deadline.

Oh for sure, it will definitely help! I just don't expect it to be enough to be very competitive. I'm not even talking Iron Hands competitive, even 50%ish WR would be nice.

I think GW said the release of the next book is December 25th.

No, that is the reveal date, not release. It could be up for preorder on the 28th for a jan 4th release though, that would be good. The cutoff date for new material is the 11th, so that would give one more week. If it's pre0rder 11th for 18th though, SOL. Doubt that will be the case.

 bullyboy wrote:

Slaul wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Slaul wrote:
I'm not holding my breath, I don't think GW will solve the Dark Angels problems with a Psychic Awakening book.

Though, some new stuff will hopefully make me not feel as bad playing DA

Just adding doctrines (plus our own super doctrine), chaplain litanies, and an addition to the chapter tactic will dramatically boost DA capabilities. If they decide to add more strats, relics, etc then it will be even better.
Right now I'm just looking for release date to determine if it comes out before the LVO deadline.

Oh for sure, it will definitely help! I just don't expect it to be enough to be very competitive. I'm not even talking Iron Hands competitive, even 50%ish WR would be nice.

I think GW said the release of the next book is December 25th.

No, that is the reveal date, not release. It could be up for preorder on the 28th for a jan 4th release though, that would be good. The cutoff date for new material is the 11th, so that would give one more week. If it's pre0rder 11th for 18th though, SOL. Doubt that will be the case.

Oh shoot, right that is just the reveal date.

i hope it is Primaris Azrael and he lost the watcher with the helm due to the lion taking it back.

That would be indeed epic.

It's going to be Lazarus, not any of the old models. There is no way that GW aren't going to take advantage of his "Thousand Sons and Tzeentch hate" in this conflict book. Whether he comes alone, or is tied to a battle box with other miniatures (not new ones), who knows?

I have been wondering why nothing about this has been leaked. All of the other ones had stuff leaked but not this one.

The preview today confirms Master Lazarus. It also mentions that we'll have "juicy new content, especially for Deathwing and Ravenwing commanders." I suppose this is a tactics thread and not a news and rumours thread, but I look forward to a boost to the Deathwing in particular.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
The preview today confirms Master Lazarus. It also mentions that we'll have "juicy new content, especially for Deathwing and Ravenwing commanders." I suppose this is a tactics thread and not a news and rumours thread, but I look forward to a boost to the Deathwing in particular.

Yeah, sort of disappointed in the lack of The Lion or Primaris Azrael, but that Lazarus model is pretty badass! I'll have to get it of course, as well as the new book. Hopefully we get some really sweet stuff for our Ravenwing and Deathwing too and not just fluffy non-competitive options and rules.

I am looking at collecting a small dark angels army of around 1000pts, what is best to take at those small levels in order to be effective.

I'm actually thrilled that Azzy didn't get the mutant marine treatment. I strongly dislike Primaris in general so it means he can still be used with the builds I like.

froper98 wrote:
I am looking at collecting a small dark angels army of around 1000pts, what is best to take at those small levels in order to be effective.

best to wait a few weeks to see what is in store with the updated Dark Angels.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
The preview today confirms Master Lazarus. It also mentions that we'll have "juicy new content, especially for Deathwing and Ravenwing commanders." I suppose this is a tactics thread and not a news and rumours thread, but I look forward to a boost to the Deathwing in particular.

Yeah, sort of disappointed in the lack of The Lion or Primaris Azrael, but that Lazarus model is pretty badass! I'll have to get it of course, as well as the new book. Hopefully we get some really sweet stuff for our Ravenwing and Deathwing too and not just fluffy non-competitive options and rules.

I find the model quite boring when compared to the other characters released. I'm already looking at what I'm going to do to change it and make it more dynamic or imposing. It's a shame that you're spending $40 on a model that you feel like you have to change to look decent (yes I know, I don't have to buy him, but I guess we'll see what his rules are like first)

I had a game the other day against Orks. He played 3 flyers, 30 man squad, 2 10 man squads in Trucks, 3 squads of gretchen, big Mek with shock attack gun, 2 warbosses, pain doc, another big Mek with a kustom force field, 14 lootas and some of the big guns batteries they can take.

I played a new list of mine that's a Vanguard and an Airwing.
Belial
Ezekiel
5 Deathwing Knights
10 Deathwing Terminators. 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 2 Chainfists. Sgt with Double Lightning Claws
2 Venerable Dreadnoughts with Twin Lascannons and close combat weapons
Deredeo Dreadnought with Autocannon Battery and Heavy Bolters
Stormraven: Twin Heavy Plasma, Hurricane Bolters, Twin Multi Melta
Dark Talon
Nephilim Jetfighter

We played an ITC setup where there were 5 objectives on the board plus the secondaries. I went first and after my 2nd turn he quit because he got called in to work. Wasn't looking that good for him though. I had killed 2 of the flyers and crippled the other. Both trucks, 20 out of the 30 man squad, half his big guns, and the Big Mek with the shock attack gun. He was down 4 Lootas too.

He had killed the Nephilim Jetfighter, Dark Talon and put 5 wounds on the Stormraven.

In the twilight days of our Codex I've had a number of tournament games (local) and test games for other player prepping for an upcoming tourney. Several things have struck me when playing the new Space Marine lists (besides Iron Hands being bonkers).

First is that Terminators are both helped and hurt by Doctrines. I took fifteen Tartaros Terminators for a tourney (going with a theme). Terminators melt under high volume AP-1/AP-2 fire which is now quite common. Their own fire when they drop in Turn 2, however, can be improved by Tactical Doctrine (not that I could use it at the tourney). Shock Assault means that they hit in close combat much harder. Five extra Powerfist attacks is nothing to sneeze at. I'm also keen to try Transhuman Physiology with them. On the whole, though, I still think they'll be a tough choice in the new meta unless we get some Iron Hands-level Strats for them.

Next, my Black Knights can still get the business done but they also hate high volume AP-1/AP-2 fire. At least they are T5. With Shock Assault my large squadron has actually wiped out two large Ork Mobs in close combat (not on purpose). They were helped by Sammael in both instances, but all those extra S5 AP-1 attacks are good.

Sammael and the Talonmaster have been the stars in most games. They actually took down an Iron Hands Leviathan with massed fire that had shrugged off Lascannon fire for two turns (and had massacred a Deathwing assault). It's sad watching Iron Hands do Landspeeders better than us, but being on the receiving end gave me some ideas for when we get Devastator Doctrine! Massed Assault Cannon/Heavy Bolter fire at AP-2 could be fun.

The Dark Talon has a tough time facing Iron Hands flyers that can essentially one-shot it. At least the Alaitoc Flyers might be getting the same treatment...

Cheers to the upcoming update!

I have basically started running just Deathwing and Dreadnoughts. Maybe a Land Raider Crusader to help get Deathwing Knights into combat.

I did this for 2 reasons: my turns go a lot faster and I love Terminators.

Any idea when Ritual of the Damned is coming out?

 Reivax26 wrote:
Any idea when Ritual of the Damned is coming out?

Sisters might be a two week release so end on January early February we might see the book but I'm not 100% sure tbh
We just have to wait and see at this point biggest worry for me is the fact they have not previewed any rules yet I hope there not crap but with gw you never know

I'm joining an escalation league in a few weeks and I think I want to take my Dark Angels.

Rules are no named characters (until a certain points level) and warlord + trait is set for the entire league. We'll be using Open War cards using the CA 2019 rules.

Here is what I'm thinking for the first step at 500 points. I know I'm a little light on high strength weapons but I'm hoping that I won't encounter any T8 at 500 points. If I do, my plan is to maaaybe plink some wounds with the suppressors and if not I'll try to play objectives / get my intercessors + master into combat.

Overall strategy is to apply pressure on characters with the eliminators, hopefully giving them hard choices on positioning, and to move the troops and master up the board as quickly as possible taking objectives early and holding them with the intercessors.

Any idea on what I could change, maybe make this meaner?

++ Patrol Detachment (Imperium - Dark Angels) [29 PL, 3CP, 500pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

+ HQ +

Primaris Master [6 PL, 86pts]: 3. Brilliant Strategist, Warlord
. Auto Bolt Rifle & Bolt Pistol: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle
. Heavenfall Blade

+ Troops +

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 94pts]: 4x Intercessor
. Bolt rifles
. Intercessor Sergeant: Power fist

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 94pts]: 4x Intercessor
. Bolt rifles
. Intercessor Sergeant: Power fist

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 64pts]: 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun, Power sword

+ Fast Attack +

Suppressor Squad [5 PL, 90pts]
. 2x Suppressor: 2x Accelerator autocannon, 2x Grav-chute
. Suppressor Sergeant: Accelerator autocannon, Grav-chute

+ Heavy Support +

Eliminator Squad [3 PL, 72pts]
. Eliminator: Bolt sniper rifle, Camo cloak
. Eliminator: Bolt sniper rifle, Camo cloak
. Eliminator Sergeant: Bolt sniper rifle, Camo cloak

++ Total: [29 PL, 3CP, 500pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

 Reivax26 wrote:
Any idea when Ritual of the Damned is coming out?

My guy who worked for GW speculated based on history that it will be the end of January.

Preorder next saturday.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/11/psychic-awakening-sorcerous-schemesgw-homepage-post-4/

Rumors of some leaks of the DA stuff (+6" range in dev doctrine?) out on the interwebs. Anyone have any links?

Here from B&C:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/360223-ritual-of-the-damned-psychic-awakening/page-16#entry5461179

Maxamato wrote:
Here from B&C:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/360223-ritual-of-the-damned-psychic-awakening/page-16#entry5461179

I'm taking most of that with a HUGE grain of salt. Some of those things are absurdly powerful if true. Looks to me like a wishlist, perhaps with some nuggets of truth.

Wow that is pretty wishlisty that second Deathwing trait that gives 1-3 fails to wound that has to be just on the character because otherwise sign me up.

Heavy weapon increased range...that sounds good the kicker seems to be leaving devastator. The ravenwing stuff sounds incredible

The extended range and the "1." RW trait to move and fire with no penalty on a Talon Master makes land speeder squads annoyingly effective harassing units.

From what I have seen it's an improvement. Don't think it makes us as strong as the Marines with the broken supplements but better is better.

Ravenwing Land Speeder squadrons with Typhoons hanging around Sammael on Sableclaw are going to be crazy good.

So it's all true. Amazing!

It looks like there is hope to be had after all so far for the Deathwing. Assuming the rest of the leaks are true, what are everyone's thoughts on bringing Deathwing back to life on the table top? The combined assault stratagem looks like it will be a no-brainer naturally.

This is looking pretty good all round (RW appear to be the big winners though).

I may have cause to actually dig out my DW with heavy flamer models again.

looking forward to dropping dw knights down just outside of 6", especially if that Outnumbered but never outmatched strat is real. What with shock assault on top they should be able to put quite a dent in say a knight

If the rest of the leaks are true (and its looking likely) my old 4th ed DW/RW list may FINALLY be viable in 8th.

On the other hand, a combined arms 3 detachment list (green battalion, DW vanguard, RW outrider vigilus thingy) looks fun, itll be small, but fun.

hmm, wheres my books, gotta try some plotting.

princeyg wrote:
This is looking pretty good all round (RW appear to be the big winners though).

I may have cause to actually dig out my DW with heavy flamer models again.

looking forward to dropping dw knights down just outside of 6", especially if that Outnumbered but never outmatched strat is real. What with shock assault on top they should be able to put quite a dent in say a knight

If the rest of the leaks are true (and its looking likely) my old 4th ed DW/RW list may FINALLY be viable in 8th.

On the other hand, a combined arms 3 detachment list (green battalion, DW vanguard, RW outrider vigilus thingy) looks fun, itll be small, but fun.

hmm, wheres my books, gotta try some plotting.

I think a double battalion will serve better for all the CP that will be needed, but it will be hard to make a list with a double batallion that also has all the toys to use the CP on....

How does combined assault interact with infiltrators aura?

12" bubble of thou shall not pass cares not for our tricky tricks (at least that's how I remember the last FAQ I read on the issue).

I don't remember reading that anywhere, can you tell me where to look that up?

I'm a little worried about the CP cost because the Deathwing beta strike looks like 2 CP for combined assault, very likely another CP to give the Ravenwing jink since they can't advance and use combined strike, and another 2 or 3 CP for Deathwing assault to double-tap heavy flamers and storm bolters. I suppose it would be better to split up your shooty Deathwing from your CC focused Deathwing. Obviously Deathwing knights supported by an ancient will be the choice to use combined assault, at a five-man that's 16 s8 3D shots hitting on 3+, plus five flail of the unforgiven attacks from the Seargent (which you can instead use to daisy chain auras), on a near-guaranteed charge. Larger units would benefit more, but I'm still a bit hesitant to all-in on terminators since they are not very efficient.

Does a heavy flamer make the five-man unit of Deathwing worth using Deathwing assault on? that would be 32 bolter shots and 2d6 heavy flamer shots, which seems good for clearing screens until you realize that they will be way more expensive than any screen they are clearing.

Aggressors actually get a lot of mileage out of our abilities, with a 21" bolt storm config or 11" flame storm config. It might actually make flame storm worthwhile since they would be able to torch deep strikers, seems especially good against blood letter bombs and anything from the GSC.

Land speeders seem to have gotten a lot of love, a heavy bolter Land speeder costs 55 points, which is a steal for what we will get out of it. First, it will act as a Deathwing diving board since it's fast and has the fly keyword, second, the reroll hits stratagem brings units outside of a DA castle up to snuff, my immediate thought was plasma inceptors who can OC from deep strike without killing themselves (much), but dark knights can pull the same trick. Probably run two H-Bolter land speeders, not in a squadron.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aeri wrote:
I don't remember reading that anywhere, can you tell me where to look that up?

I think he is referring to Infiltrators, which is a bad unit with a good ability. But people have had to deal with deep strike charges for a long time and infiltrators have never caught on.

Found it:

FAQS Q: If a unit has a rule that says enemy units cannot set up within a certain distance of it (e.g. Omni-scramblers), but an enemy unit has a rule that says it can set up within a certain distance (e.g. Vexilla Teleport Homer and Lying in Wait), which takes precedence? A: The rule that says you cannot be set up within a certain distance (in the example instance, Omniscramblers) always takes precedence.

However, the stratagem does not only allow to be setup within a certain range of a unity but also closer to another unit than it would normally be allowed to.
Therefore the answer in the faq does not cover the issue at hand.

princeyg wrote:
This is looking pretty good all round (RW appear to be the big winners though).

I may have cause to actually dig out my DW with heavy flamer models again.

looking forward to dropping dw knights down just outside of 6", especially if that Outnumbered but never outmatched strat is real. What with shock assault on top they should be able to put quite a dent in say a knight

If the rest of the leaks are true (and its looking likely) my old 4th ed DW/RW list may FINALLY be viable in 8th.

On the other hand, a combined arms 3 detachment list (green battalion, DW vanguard, RW outrider vigilus thingy) looks fun, itll be small, but fun.

hmm, wheres my books, gotta try some plotting.

DW knights can do more than dent a knight, they can kill them outright. I have been using 5 DW Knights an Ancient with MoM and a DW Libby with RR power and that will down a knight with ease. Using 3 CP to fight again and you can get 2. What is better most Knight players do not expect it and are quite happy for you to charge 5 terminators in.

Do you use an Ancient with Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer?

 Reivax26 wrote:
Do you use an Ancient with Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer?

Twin Claws because it's cheaper and I do not have a TH/SS model I could use that is different enough to the Knights. TBH he is there solely to be the Warlord and give MoM for the reroll charge and his +1a aura, so even if I had the model I would probably keep him as twin Claws.

Can ab explain how consolidating into a second unit and fighting again allows you to hit that unit?
I thought you can only ever target a unit you charged or were already in combat with.

Declare charges against everything w/in 12". You don't have to end your charge move w/in 1" of a unit to fight it, you only need to have declared it as a target in your charge phase.

Did DA just get VIABLE ASSAULT TERMINATORS??!! I want too!

I'm not sold yet. I struggle to use dark knights so having to include them to use the DWK doesn't seem great.

Sammy on a bike or one of the RW bike characters (ancient/apoth) seems like the best delivery method to me. I saw sammy on bike + a couple talon masters as a delivery bubble to blow away chaff and make a good landing spot seems fun (supreme command detachment?)

I still think they'll suffer from being so dang slow once they land but that's a genreic termie problem.

I'm looking forward to seeing what people who are better at 40k than I am come up with. There are defo some tools, now it's about getting in the lab and figuring out what works for you (my favorite part of 40k).

Dadavester wrote:

princeyg wrote:
This is looking pretty good all round (RW appear to be the big winners though).

I may have cause to actually dig out my DW with heavy flamer models again.

looking forward to dropping dw knights down just outside of 6", especially if that Outnumbered but never outmatched strat is real. What with shock assault on top they should be able to put quite a dent in say a knight

If the rest of the leaks are true (and its looking likely) my old 4th ed DW/RW list may FINALLY be viable in 8th.

On the other hand, a combined arms 3 detachment list (green battalion, DW vanguard, RW outrider vigilus thingy) looks fun, itll be small, but fun.

hmm, wheres my books, gotta try some plotting.

DW knights can do more than dent a knight, they can kill them outright. I have been using 5 DW Knights an Ancient with MoM and a DW Libby with RR power and that will down a knight with ease. Using 3 CP to fight again and you can get 2. What is better most Knight players do not expect it and are quite happy for you to charge 5 terminators in.

Ok, cool. Its been a while since I actually got a game in.
Im not the most competitive minded player ( heck I use a DW apothecary) but my nids have been shot up or stood on by too many of those oversized tin cans its nice to know one of my armies has something that can make them go splat! (lets not talk about my stompa eh?)

Looking at the list of leaks, IF they are all true then i'm gonna have to expand my ravenwing collection i think, looking at a couple of cheap landpeeders for the targeting strat (ahem {old man voice} " brings back memories of epic that does, lad") does anybody use units of em with typhoons? are they any good?

What do people think about the old epic spotter landspeeder + safely hidden out of the way whirlwind combo?? With the extra range from the doctrine you could zip the speeder up a flank (or two) and the whirlwind should be able to hit most things.

As someone who runs a 10 man DW unit for teleporting onto objectives ( im mad like that) the relic for the ancient seems good, even though the ancient is probably better off with the knights. Anything that makes termies harder to kill is fine by me
P.S. i know lots of people think 10 man termies are too expensive, but its gotta be my 2nd best performing unit overall (after the flying chapel of course)

One last question. As someone who has never owned a primaris marine, and in fact only bought tacticals about 2 months before primaris were revealed, do the 2 wounds make them ok to use in 5 man squads? If im gonna go double battalion im gonna need troops (looking at 3 squads of intercessors, 3 squads of scouts, because scouts are cool) I was always wary of 5 man tacticals.

*edited for spelling

princeyg wrote:

One last question. As someone who has never owned a primaris marine, and in fact only bought tacticals about 2 months before primaris were revealed, do the 2 wounds make them ok to use in 5 man squads? If im gonna go double battalion im gonna need troops (looking at 3 squads of intercessors, 3 squads of scouts, because scouts are cool) I was always wary of 5 man tacticals.

5 man intercessors are excellent IMO, for only 20 points more they get a better gun and double the wounds.
I think you could even make a competitive list based on them, instead of taking just the bare minimum.

 Nivoglibina wrote:

princeyg wrote:

One last question. As someone who has never owned a primaris marine, and in fact only bought tacticals about 2 months before primaris were revealed, do the 2 wounds make them ok to use in 5 man squads? If im gonna go double battalion im gonna need troops (looking at 3 squads of intercessors, 3 squads of scouts, because scouts are cool) I was always wary of 5 man tacticals.

5 man intercessors are excellent IMO, for only 20 points more they get a better gun and double the wounds.
I think you could even make a competitive list based on them, instead of taking just the bare minimum.

Thanks for the reply. Good to know.

Its not that I WANT to take bare minimum, but its looking like ill have to to fit in all the funky DW/RW stuff I like, plus maybe trying to squeeze in some stuff I have never used, like the aforementioned whirlwind. Im also not one of these people who have a grudge against primaris existing, just finances have meant I have concentrated more on my nids in the last 2 years so never bought any. Saying that, my most played opponent (space wolves) has just added a whole bunch of them to his secondary army (crimson fists) and i am quite taken with the models.

Ive never really been one for msu (even my eldar fielded multiple 20 guardian units)
Its why i field 6 man RW units. 3 just looks to piddling small for me (again, not a tournament player so min/maxing isnt really an issue in my games).

Its looking like for the first time in a Loong time the DA are not going to be lagging behind the other chapters at least (never played vs iron hands so wont include them).

Considering the range bonus, what weapons would you now take on hellblasters?

Aeri wrote:
Considering the range bonus, what weapons would you now take on hellblasters?

I think the standard Rapid Fire version is still the way to go. The Heavy version just doesn't have enough shots, and the Assault version capping out at S7 when overcharged is too much of a downside for me - S8 feels like a pretty important breakpoint to reach right now.

My list got better I suppose. Now my Deredeo has 42 inches on his Autocannon Battery and Heavy Bolters. Plus my Venerable Dreadnoughts are packing 54 inch Lascannons lol

 Reivax26 wrote:
My list got better I suppose. Now my Deredeo has 42 inches on his Autocannon Battery and Heavy Bolters. Plus my Venerable Dreadnoughts are packing 54 inch Lascannons lol

I run 3x ML/LC Ven dreads as my anti-Tank. This will make them even better.

I might run the Ancient I was using as a SS/TH Master now that I can give him a trait to ignore to wound rolls against him of a 1-3.

Aeri wrote:
Considering the range bonus, what weapons would you now take on hellblasters?

I don't know if the extra range really changes that equation, the assault plasma incinerator needed the extra range the most, but only got 3". Perhaps the new litany might help make a case for heavy plasma incinerators since they would be able to move and shoot without penalty, with a 42" range and a 6" move there are not many things that could outrange them, and they are basically las cannons at str 9 ap -4 and 3 damage (with WFTDA). I still think plasma incinerators are the better overall weapon thanks to rapid-fire (now at a range of 18"), but str 9 is more useful against knights and the like.

Devastator Doctrine made Leviathan Dreads with Stormcannon Arrays even spicier. Now we get 30" range cannons at AP-3. Now I wish I had two, but the one I do have is probably an auto-include in my competitive lists.

The extra 3" range on Flamers could lead to some saucy shenanigans, like maybe putting some Flamer Vets in a Drop Pod for turn 1 horde-clearing. Not sure it's worth the points though. Storm Bolters are probably just as good and don't need the range bonus (they really want Tactical Doctrine while the army as a whole wants Devastator).

Other units that I think have won big are the planes and the character speeders. Dark Talons can hit things with their Rift Cannons at 24" (and rapid fire their Hurricane Bolters at 15" for what it's worth), and Nephys heavy weapons benefit nicely with Dev Doctrine for an extra -1 AP. The extra range and AP will really buff Talonmasters and Sableclaw too. Plus Talonmasters have some new relics and stuff they can use, although I hate to give up the Heavenfall Blade on them.

With the added range, the Azrael Hellblaster Gunline might have new life, especially since we can now add Lazarus and his protection from mortal wounds. Still not sure but what it's kind of a trap build, but we'll have to see. 36" range means we can at least match ranges with Tau heavies rather than have them sit out of range and knock Hellblasters over (avoiding retaliation from the banner).

The Ravenwing pregame move warlord trait opens up an interesting tactical option. As I understand it, it allows you to move a character and another unit AFTER any roll to seize or anything, so by time you make this move you know 100% who's going first. Meaning you can move your Black Knights up aggressively for a turn 1 shooting and charge if you are first, or move them behind some terrain if going second. Perhaps kind of obvious but this absolutely makes RWBK playable.

Just my 2 cents on some things we'll be able to do better with the stuff from this book. Other people have already talked a bit about the RW + DW combo and strat, and I have nothing to add right now. All I know is, it's a good time to be a Son of the Lion.

For those wandering what the points costs of Lazarus are:



This is seriously good!

He seems pretty baller at that cost. Probably an auto-include for gunline-style lists, but too slow to keep up with mobile Ravenwing lists.

His aura working against all mortal wounds and not just pyskers etc definitely makes it a viable inclusion, and at a very small increase over a normal primaris master as well.


Also if you build the kit as Lazarus you'll have a spare DA power fist to give to an Intercessor Sgt

The redeemer also suddenly got very interesting for me, at least in a not fully competitive environment.

The extra range benefits all of its guns in a great way.

Even with the new shiny RW/DW warlord traits, I still think that Brilliant Strategist will be necessary due to the thirsty CP nature of the army. I will probably start with the Impeccable Mobility on a Talon Master in addition though.
DW certainly got more resilient though, either through the +1T strat (if tergeted by massed S4 shots), or Transhuman Physiology if hit by the high powered guns. So many things to think about. The hard part is going to be balancing the % of RW/DW/GW in a list. I think when I go GW it will not contain too many RW elements, but not sure how I will load out. I will try a few games with my old marines though, even though I know that Intercessors are just better. i will slowly transition into adding them to my lists.

 bullyboy wrote:
Even with the new shiny RW/DW warlord traits, I still think that Brilliant Strategist will be necessary due to the thirsty CP nature of the army.

I've been experimenting with an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with the Esoteric Law Warlord Trait, and that's been working out fairly well so far. It doesn't have all of the perks of Brilliant Strategist, but has kept my CPs topped up to a decent level.

You lose doctrines though

Aeri wrote:
You lose doctrines though

A single Inquisitor doesnt break doctrines or super-doctrines. They have an explicit rule that allows them to run in "pure" armies.

Yup, they're a great deal as things stand - they don't cause any issues for Doctrines, Sacred Rites or the like, and a minimally kitted Inquisitor can give you a CP farm and the Terrify psychic power that denies Overwatch for around 50 points plus a CP (for a Warlord trait and relic). It's a pretty solid addition to any Imperium army.

I have been running a Deathwing list with Dreadnoughts for a while now so the new releases don't change anything that much. The Doctrines will help some. I am really thinking about taking the Deathwing Warlord trait where you can deny any one Psychic Power. That is strategically speaking crazy as gak.

If anyone is going to run Ravenwing you better have a crap load of CP or its not going to do what you want it to. Which means you get to waste points on models who probably won't do anything but make Ravenwing cool.

 Reivax26 wrote:
I have been running a Deathwing list with Dreadnoughts for a while now so the new releases don't change anything that much. The Doctrines will help some. I am really thinking about taking the Deathwing Warlord trait where you can deny any one Psychic Power. That is strategically speaking crazy as gak.

If anyone is going to run Ravenwing you better have a crap load of CP or its not going to do what you want it to. Which means you get to waste points on models who probably won't do anything but make Ravenwing cool.

This is a problem I hope they address because we cannot run these themed lists and not be at a major disadvantage. Maybe Belial allows a Deathwing Battalion of elites. The obvious downside to this is others would demand similar imagine a Tau elite battalion where they can ignore the need for fire warriors and can instead take foresight marksman or something similar.


As it is. I'm cautiously optimistic that Deathwing will be good I do believe Ravenwing will be competitive especially with minimum squads of intercessors or scouts for a battalion

That's how it used to be. Special character let you do cool stuff. Lysander used to let Imperial Fists run all Terminators like our Deathwing could.

The other side of this is you would have to take the Warlord trait of that character. I think Belial should have the trait from the new book where you ignore wound rolls against you that were a 1,2, or 3. He is notoriously tough and if you combined it with his current rules he would be a beast in close combat.

I am shocked that we didn't get a Ravenwing strategem to let a squad of Ravenwing flank in from the board edges.

 Reivax26 wrote:
That's how it used to be. Special character let you do cool stuff. Lysander used to let Imperial Fists run all Terminators like our Deathwing could.

The other side of this is you would have to take the Warlord trait of that character. I think Belial should have the trait from the new book where you ignore wound rolls against you that were a 1,2, or 3. He is notoriously tough and if you combined it with his current rules he would be a beast in close combat.

I am shocked that we didn't get a Ravenwing strategem to let a squad of Ravenwing flank in from the board edges.

Yep 4th edition Belial who was 130 made Deathwing troops and could take Th/Ss for free was great.

I've been having fun with Sammael in Sableclaw and two Talonmasters. One of the Talonmasters is the Warlord with Impeccable Mobility and Corvus Occulus. The extra range and AP along with Relentless Hunt overcomes the main weaknesses of the weapon load-out of the speeders. I might even add a third Talonmaster...

I just noticed something peculiar in the back of RoTD Deathwing Apothecaries are now fifty points base. This is a twenty point drop from chapter approved

I had a 1k game on Saturday against an Ork player who brought 2 30 man shoota squads, 1 30 man slugga squad, paindoc, Big Mek, Weirdboy, and Boss. There was a big terrain piece in the center of the board and he moved around it. He called it at the end of the 5th. The new super doctrine worked wonders and the new Deathwing Strategems are ridiculous.

The 30 sluggas charged 6 Deathwing Knights being led by Belial and a Storm Shield Thunder Hammer Ancient. I popped the Strategems for +1 toughness, +1 to hit and the one where you get a bonus attack if fighting 10 or more models. 12 of his boys counting the Nob with power klaw swung and I made 3 armor saves and 2 invuls. Then my guys swung back and killed everything in the combat zone. Then during my turn I beat them to death.

List was:
Belial
Lt

2 10 man Tactical squads with triple Plasma
10 scout Snipers

6 Deathwing Knights
DW Ancient with relic banner and the Warlord trait where you deny a Psychic power.

The Snipers killed his paindoc during my first turn. After that the Tactical squads with the Lt standing between them really were the star of the show. I made him come to me and just stood my ground double firing my Bolters and plasma.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I've been having fun with Sammael in Sableclaw and two Talonmasters. One of the Talonmasters is the Warlord with Impeccable Mobility and Corvus Occulus.

What are you using to shield them with? Impulsors?

 Smirrors wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I've been having fun with Sammael in Sableclaw and two Talonmasters. One of the Talonmasters is the Warlord with Impeccable Mobility and Corvus Occulus.

What are you using to shield them with? Impulsors?

Early on I use two lines of infantry (Scouts and then Intercessors), with bikes and Land Speeders for turn 3. Used a Drop Pod as well. Haven't tried an Impulser, but that's a good idea.

I feel like I need the two battalions to get use out of the DA strats so most likely will also have 3 scouts and a unit of infiltrators up front when terrain permits.

For 79pts I think the Impulsor could be a good fit for talon masters as no one really wants to shoot at. It moves 14" so can keep up and for 18pts can have a 4++ to make it a little annoying to get rid of.

Anyone had any luck with using master-crafted weapon on a Talonmaster yet? Seems that a 12-shot -2 d2 assault cannon would be too good to pass up.

Special Issue can't be given to vehicle character.

Maxamato wrote:
Special Issue can't be given to vehicle character.

Plus the Corvus Oculus is hard to pass up on a Talon Master. Pushing another 6" of range onto your guns and the +1 to hit are both so good (particularly when comboed with Impeccable Mobility).

So Sammael for Rerolls Hits
A Talon Master hero of the chapter - Impeccable Mobility
A Talon Master with Corvus Oculus (spread the risk)

Expensive but sounds fun. Need to see how it translates on the table top.

I dont see how it would be bad. I have ran 2 talon masters and sammael for a while now with my ravenwing and never regretted it. Sure they are expensive but they put out so much firepower and are not target able by anything of real threat that they are worth it. The new toys just make them better.

I'm going to be running Sammie a pair of talonmaster With 2 max units of speeders (13 total speeders )

I ran a game this weekend with 15 Tacticals 3 units of 5 each with a plasma cannon, A lieutenant with a power axe and bolter, and a mastelr with a combi-plasma and a relic blade for a battalion. Also 6 black knights.
A vanguard with deathwing Interrogator chaplain 10 deathwing knights, an ancient with the relic banner and claws and, an apothecary.
The second vanguard ran a relic contemptor with two kheres assault cannons and a cyclone missile launcher. A venerable dreadnought with twin lascannon. and 6 deathwing with thunder hammers. A terminator librarian with reroll to hit and wound. and Master in terminator armor with storm shield and Relic blader.


it worked well especially with my turn two 4 inch charge, i brought the chaplain and ancient in 9" away but their auras worked especially when both made their pwn 7" charges. I wiped 4 units of necrons (warriors and two immortals and a lord with scythe.) while my dreadnoughts and plasma cannons picked off fliers. It worked well.

I got a 1k team tournament coming up in 2 weeks. My partner is playing Space Wolves. I have 2 possible options for lists that I want to bring.

Option 1 is Ravenwing. Talonmaster, Darkshroud, 6 man bikers, 5 Black Knights, Ravenwing Apothecary and 3 Typhoon Speeders.

Option 2 is Deathwing. Belial, Ancient with Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer with relic banner, 6 Deathwing Knights, 2 Venerable Dreadnought with twin lascannons and close combat weapons, Deredeo with Autocannon battery and atomantic pavaise.

Interested to hear peoples thoughts on the options. I am happy with either one.

Option 1 is definitely more powerful

Ravenwing > Deathwing even with the new stuff. Both together can do some nice combos like the close deep strike strat, but if you only want one or the other, take Ravenwing.

On another note, what are everyone's thoughts about going Brigade with Dark Angels? We've got cheap options in almost every slot; the real question is where do we splurge and take more pricey stuff?

I have actually had more success with Deathwing than Ravenwing in my area.

Brigade works fine starting from 2250 points. For 2000 points 2 battalions is preferable in my opinion.

 captain collius wrote:


it worked well especially with my turn two 4 inch charge, i brought the chaplain and ancient in 9" away but their auras worked especially when both made their pwn 7" charges. I wiped 4 units of necrons (warriors and two immortals and a lord with scythe.) while my dreadnoughts and plasma cannons picked off fliers. It worked well.

The chaplain wont be able to chant the turn he deepstrikes so it sounds like you played it wrong?

Even with the cool DA litany, I'm not sure Chappies are worth it. Only unit I really want to use that litany on is Aggressors (because being stationary procs both Grim Resolve and their double shooting), and taking a Chaplain is just adding points to make one unit good. Maybe I'm missing something, I dunno. I still think the go-to HQ's are Sammy in Sableclaw and Talonmasters. Honorable mention to the Master in Phobos Armor though; he's been useful to me in several games.

On another note, how do people feel about our planes now? Dark Talons got a small points reduction in CA2019, and Nephilims got a much bigger one. With Doctrines I'm thinking Nephys might actually be okay now, if not great or anything. Considering running an Air Wing with 2 Dark Talons and a Nephy. Stormravens are still massively overpriced for competitive play, but could perhaps be a sort of okay delivery method for Deathwing Knights, at least in casual/semicomp play.

Speaking of Deathwing Knights, I really want to try out a big blob of them (10 guys), dropping in next to a Ravenwing unit for an easy 6 inch charge on something juicy. I imagine there's decent counterplay to this though if your opponent has good screens. Good thing the character speeders and planes are good at killing chaff!

Update on the post from the other day. I got to play test the Ravenwing list and it performed ok but not spectacular. I was playing with a guy running a Chaos Soup list and we went against a big gun Ad Mech list paired with 7 Dreadnought Blood Angels list.

Any big guns with a decent amount of shots were wrecking my Land Speeders and the bikers. My Black Knights were awesome though.

I think the DA litany is just a bonus, the real gem is the +1 to hit litany so plasma can safely overcharge.

The DA Litany is also really good for moving Eliminators and Intercessors with Stalker Bolt Rifles onto good positions. You can start them out of LOS and move them up first turn without losing rerolls or taking the heavy weapon penalty.

And, yeah, the DA litany is free so you can get it in addition to the +1 to hit litany or any other one and then choose which to activate each turn depending on the game state.

Chaplain will be worthwhile, if you build your army around it (Agressors, Intercessors, Suppressors).
Regarding aircrafts, I think that 1-3 Nephilims with impeccable mobility Talonmaster is a very nasty combo.

 Smirrors wrote:

 captain collius wrote:


it worked well especially with my turn two 4 inch charge, i brought the chaplain and ancient in 9" away but their auras worked especially when both made their pwn 7" charges. I wiped 4 units of necrons (warriors and two immortals and a lord with scythe.) while my dreadnoughts and plasma cannons picked off fliers. It worked well.

The chaplain wont be able to chant the turn he deepstrikes so it sounds like you played it wrong?

So I Did. Tis no matter ill simply bring in a jump pack chappy

I think our "trick" play is 10 Deathwing Knights supported by Deathwing Ancient and either Belial or Libby Terminator, teleported in via Ravenwing Apothecary. In total this section costs 616pts leaving you plenty to fill around it (and you will want to run 2 battalions at minimum).

Deathwing Ancient gives +1 attack but its mainly the relic banner which also gives a 5+++ on top (yes you get both!). He should also get the character trait Master of Maneuver to give reroll charges and advance which the Knights will definitely need after they destroy their target.

With their 3++/5+++, and Transhuman Physiology (2CP), or +1T or -1 to Wound (1CP) these guys should hopefully survive return fire. Dont forget that watcher to deny a smite.

For offense they can get +1 to hit or get extra attacks for hordes at 1CP each (against mobs of 10+, this 10 man squad can generate 51 attacks!). For 3CP attack again!

(In a meta the rewards maximising blobs I am curious whether a second blob would be worthwhile for security).

Belial or Libby is pretty self explanatory. Belial for the full rerolls is set and forget or the libby for full reroll hit and wounds is better but in a psychic meta it is high risk reward. I prefer Belial. There are arguments you may not even need these characters so can be dropped if you need to skimp on points.

Ravenwing Apothecary is straight forward. He is the delivery mechanism. Can heal himself, can heal the knights, can grab objectives afterwards, can add some extra shooting and close combat with short notice. With Full Throttle (1CP), he can deliver knights with a threat range of min 41" (14 move +14 move again +7 deploy +6 assault). All for 60pts!

I think its a pretty powerful tool box for the Dark Angels and very fluffy too. Its all theory crafting but with the dakka we get from our speeders, we should be able to clear screens comfortably.

The counter to Knights is probably going to be smite spam but everyone has to face that terror.

I am running something similar to this in an upcoming team tournament. If you want to get funny, take the Ancient and give him the relic banner, plus a Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer. Then give him the Warlord trait Watched so you get the free denial once a game.

Then take a Master in Terminator armor and give him Lay Low the Mighty. So now the Knights and Ancient are destroying characters and anything with 8+ wounds.

 Reivax26 wrote:
I am running something similar to this in an upcoming team tournament. If you want to get funny, take the Ancient and give him the relic banner, plus a Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer. Then give him the Warlord trait Watched so you get the free denial once a game.

Then take a Master in Terminator armor and give him Lay Low the Mighty. So now the Knights and Ancient are destroying characters and anything with 8+ wounds.

Its a shame the character cost of thunder hammer and shield is so much (39pt premium). Deny would be nice but the volume of stuff that is coming his way will make that deny basically useless.

That said Lay Low the Mighty might be a good option on the Ancient as well if you feel you can skip the reroll charge and assault but I feel that will sometimes backfire. Given that this 10 man squad needs to get into combat at all cost I feel like you need to go all in.

Its a real shame that Belial has Huntsman for his trait, absolutely balls for what you want him to do. That said his full rerolls for Deathwing and his sword that wounds on 2s (hit 2 with rerolls, wound 2, AP3 D2) is not bad for 125pts.

I am currently taking a Talonmaster with Impeccable Mobility which means only 1 extra character which I have chosen for the Ancient.

You don't need Belial or Librarian really. Sammael allows DW to reroll ones and is probably more useful overall. Pop the strat to allow the knights to hit on 2s and you can rock n roll. I'd probably give the Ancient the lay Low the Might trait if facing lots of vehicles or knights etc.

Given the nature of the list, the Deathwing Knights will go where they have to so usually unsupported. With the apothecary moving up to 28" they are unlikely be in range of any buffs other than Ancient. But with +1 to hit strat, I agree they dont have to be buffed. As hitting on 2s and wounding on 2/3s with that volume of attacks should be sufficient outside of T8 which you may want to consider the Libby.

I am just glad that they actually did something to help Deathwing.

Saw some GT results for a couple of different events on a Warhammer facebook group, and Dark Angels won one of them and made a strong showing in another. Don't know the full lists, but I know the one that won an event had 3 Dark Talons and 3 Nephilims in it along with a Darkshroud. Somehow I doubt DA flyer spam will ever be as cancer as Alaitoc spam was, but it looks like it can be made to work. Of course, it could be very matchup dependent (one comment said something about the list not facing any of the current meta defining lists like Iron Hands).

I'm not going to buy into something like that without more data though. What I am thinking of doing is getting some more Deathwing Knights to run a full unit of 10. That should do some work if they can drop next to something juicy.

Yup the genghiscon

https://www.40kstats.com/genghiscon

I was originally going to build into knights but the comp scene will be sammael, talonmasters and flyers.

I am taking 2 impulsors to help screen. But the invictors are solid choices with the changes to ITC deployment. Not sure of his eliminator choices either but they would help screen out.

Context of the tournament would be important to see what else was there. 2nd was GK paladin bombs but it looks like he dodged that match up.

I'm taking a Talonmaster trio plus Sammael and Black Knights to a six round tourney this weekend. I made some adjustments to fit in some DW Knights out of nostalgia and an interest in the 6" deep strike. It's a dual Battalion for CPs and enough screening troops to let the Talonmasters bring the rain.

It's done well in test games - but the proof will be in the pudding!

I'll definitely give a Flyer-heavy list a try at some point. I only have 2 Dark Talons, a Nephilim, and a Stormraven, so I can't do the double Air Wing thing, but instead I could have more stuff on the ground to prevent getting Boots'd. That would be my main concern in a really tough meta when you bring so many flyers; the potential to lose to Boots on the Ground. Alaitoc could avoid it by having durable vehicles that could hide out of LOS and still shoot (Night Spinners) or were just a pain in the ass to remove (Wave Serpents), plus having good hit modifiers on everything.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I'm taking a Talonmaster trio plus Sammael and Black Knights to a six round tourney this weekend. I made some adjustments to fit in some DW Knights out of nostalgia and an interest in the 6" deep strike. It's a dual Battalion for CPs and enough screening troops to let the Talonmasters bring the rain.

It's done well in test games - but the proof will be in the pudding!

Curious what you are using to screen the Speeders?

Ive got a 3 round RTT this Sunday and taking the following:

Sammael and 2 Talonmasters
3 x 5 Intercessors
2 Impulsors with domes
2 Executioners
2 Nephilims with lascannons

Pretty simple, shoot the crap out of everything, the opponents will need to shoot the Impulsors (and the 5 man teams in side) and Nephilims to get at the speeders leaving the Executioners to do the heavy lifting.

Which kind of executioners you use, Smirrors, with plasma or with lasers?

Mine are built up as Heavy Laser Destroyers but theres definitely merit for the plasma as long as you are willing to potentially reroll shots which gets a little expensive when you want to use it alongside Weapons from the Dark Age.

Potentially 1 of each? Push the plasma up as a threat. 47" threat range is still decent.

Small update, ITC yesterday managed to come 4th with 2-1 record. Loss was to Imperial Fists running the infamous indirect fire and chap dreads list. He managed to destroy both Executioners Turn 1 but I was still able to claw back some points losing 35-18.

Win was guard which was brutal for opposition and final round against the undefeated Ravenguard player at the time. Managed to get a close win 28-26 due to him being ultra cagey.

Nephilms did good work. Without indirect fire they were able to get angles on units the others couldn't touch. They were pretty frail and outside of buffs their output drops a fair bit but you only need them to hit hard turn 1 and 2 (which is the limit to their buffs for the most part).

Impulsors (first time using) are a brilliant model. So much utility. They helped screen and also importantly would help grab secondaries, delivery intercessors effectively, bump shooting units and screen deepstrike and characters.

Executioners. Was good but definitely a risky investment if enemy is adept at killing vehicles.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 raverrn wrote:
Dark Angels Hellblasters are going to be terrifying, Re-rolls of 1 AND 3 damage on overcharge? Christ.

yeah I've just ordered some more.

I find that hilarious, on the 40k wiki it states that Dark Angels are apparently in possession of a surplus of Plasma weapons, it's even their speciality.

Next list I am going to try out the Deathwing Knights. I like them in theory but after adding all the points for their maximum effectiveness I think its going to be too much. So I have adjusted my shooty DA list above to accommodate what I think is the bare minimum to get it to work.

Battalion:
Sammael
Talonmaster Warlord
2 units of 5 Autobolt Intercessors and 1 unit of Scouts
2 Impulsors with Dome
1 Executioner
8 Deathwing Knights
Deathwing Ancient with Relic Banner
Ravenwing Apothecary

Airwing
3 Nephilim Jetfighters with Lascannons

A bit short on CP (starting 7CP) but just enough to get it to work i think.

Thoughts?

Have the new FAQs changed anything for us, I haven't actually put models to table since getting back into the swing of things here on Dakka but a few of the meta lists like close to what I already own so I'm interested to know what's changed for us.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Have the new FAQs changed anything for us, I haven't actually put models to table since getting back into the swing of things here on Dakka but a few of the meta lists like close to what I already own so I'm interested to know what's changed for us.

Devastator Doctrine now works only for the first round of the game
Tactical Doctrine now works automatically from round 2 and goes up to 4; round 5 must start Assault Doctrine
Adaptive Strategy stratagem is kaputt
The Dreadnought stratagem that reduced incoming damage by half now only reduces it by 1

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Have the new FAQs changed anything for us, I haven't actually put models to table since getting back into the swing of things here on Dakka but a few of the meta lists like close to what I already own so I'm interested to know what's changed for us.

Devastator Doctrine now works only for the first round of the game
Tactical Doctrine now works automatically from round 2 and goes up to 4; round 5 must start Assault Doctrine
Adaptive Strategy stratagem is kaputt
The Dreadnought stratagem that reduced incoming damage by half now only reduces it by 1

Close, the Tactical Doctrine is active Round 2 and Round 3 you can choose either Tactical or Assault. From Round 4 on you can only be in Assault.

As for the nerf in relation to DA, it means we can't build our lists around Heavy Weapons and just sit in the Devastator Doctrine all day outranging our opponent. This means we make a strong turn 1 strike hitting key enemy units and then try to leverage the Tactical Doctrine.

Talonmaster/ Sammael is still going to be strong because Sam gives rerolls anyway and if we really wanted to there is a WL trait that lets us activate a different doctrine for RW units within 6 I believe.

Personally I'm going to have to take a look at aggressors/chaplain combos and ravenwing bikers to be more mobile and also to leverage tactical doctrine.

Tactical doctrine is only t2 and 3, t4 onwards you have to be in assault doctrine.

• During the first battle round, the Devastator Doctrine is active for your army.
• During the second battle round, the Tactical Doctrine is active for your army.
• At the start of the third battle round, select either the Tactical Doctrine or Assault Doctrine: until the
end of that battle round, the doctrine you selected is active for your army.
• During the fourth and subsequent battle rounds, the Assault Doctrine is active for your army.

 Dr.Scheme wrote:


Talonmaster/ Sammael is still going to be strong because Sam gives rerolls anyway and if we really wanted to there is a WL trait that lets us activate a different doctrine for RW units within 6 I believe.

Yes Ravenwing Warlord trait is called Tactically Flexible. Prior to the FAQ this was basically useless but with FAQ you can definitely consider this as its quite unique (only UM can do it). But you will want to run this in conjunction with Impeccable Mobility. Its good when the game makes you make choices that actually matter

 Dr.Scheme wrote:


Personally I'm going to have to take a look at aggressors/chaplain combos and ravenwing bikers to be more mobile and also to leverage tactical doctrine.

How do you get Aggressors in proper range? If they go via a transport then Chaplain wont really work. If they walk around then they are likely going to shooting at only what opponents let them.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Have the new FAQs changed anything for us, I haven't actually put models to table since getting back into the swing of things here on Dakka but a few of the meta lists like close to what I already own so I'm interested to know what's changed for us.

Devastator Doctrine now works only for the first round of the game
Tactical Doctrine now works automatically from round 2 and goes up to 4; round 5 must start Assault Doctrine
Adaptive Strategy stratagem is kaputt
The Dreadnought stratagem that reduced incoming damage by half now only reduces it by 1

I know what the changes are, I was more wondering if it hurt the viability of things like Talonmasters, Black Knights, etc.

-----

With my current models, I wouldn't exactly be building ITC crushing lists but I have the scouts, bikes, and speeders to build a core around. Beyond that I might see what Combined Assault and a couple of units of DWK can do.

Generally I'd consider if going only DA is valid anymore. Having this extra range for 1 turn instead of backup from more effective sources... I'd rather pick something out side of DA which will give me more then rely on this additional range for 1 turn.

I don't think the bonus was never relevant outside of turn 1.
And remember, we never even had doctrines before, so having them is a huge bonus already

TirScath wrote:
Generally I'd consider if going only DA is valid anymore. Having this extra range for 1 turn instead of backup from more effective sources... I'd rather pick something out side of DA which will give me more then rely on this additional range for 1 turn.

Even prior to the Doctrine nerf, sticking with mono DA was not a huge boon as it was with other chapters. Our average doctrine and chapter tactics lends itself to mix with others well as we do lose very little in the scheme of things. Heck we are even somewhat encouraged to mix a wolf unit in.

I played in a team tournament last weekend. We each got 1k so I brought a Deathwing list with 3 Dreadnoughts backing them up. A Deredeo with the Autocannon Battery, Pavaise and then 2 Ven Dreads with twin las and close combat weapons beside them.

They took out multiple units of MSU Intercessors a turn. My buddy brought Space Wolves with Dreads and a Baneblade.

We had a blast. Lost badly to Thousand Sons and Tau team. Lost 2nd game only because the game ended on time. They outscored us but were going to get tabled. Was Aeldari and Genestealer Cult.

3rd game was against Necrons and Raven Guard. We beat the crap out of them.

As far as the new changes are concerned I am going to start running an alpha strike list setup around 3 Drop Pods with as much Plasma as I can load in. With Azrael, LT, and the Ancient there with them. 2 squads of Plasma Vets so even if they jump in front of a character to take a wound, on a 4 up they super charge their Plasma and rapid fire as they die.

I am going to run a Dark Talon and a Jetfighter to help with the initial strike and then 2nd turn Belial and 10 Deathwing Terminators land and wreck 2 squads.

Brothers, what do you think of running the following list?



It's certainly far from an optimized list but the Librarians ensure that 2 of your midfield scoring units won't be shot at, your black knights get into the enemy's face and keep them off objectives, the dark shroud goes where it's needed and keeps important things alive. The other HQs pick off enemy units and the DW Knights and Ancient provide a backfield distraction that demands attention or drops right into the opponents face and kills something you'd rather not deal with.

Are the libs casting anything specific? I would recommend bring one as terminator so he can cast righteous repugnance to buff the Deathwing Knights. I would also drop the 2nd lib for a Ravenwing Apothecary who can help drop the Deathwing Knights up close and provide heals or objective grabbing.

 Smirrors wrote:
Are the libs casting anything specific? I would recommend bring one as terminator so he can cast righteous repugnance to buff the Deathwing Knights. I would also drop the 2nd lib for a Ravenwing Apothecary who can help drop the Deathwing Knights up close and provide heals or objective grabbing.

I think I covered this in the Army List thread. If not feel free to poke me again.

I never understand how lists like yours function. Where's your units for holding home objectives? Where's your anti tank? Yes black Knights have plasma, but in my experience, black Knights die in the first 2 turns. You've got nothing else that can deal with T7+, unless the deathwing Knights are way more effective for you than they are for me

Zustiur wrote:
I never understand how lists like yours function. Where's your units for holding home objectives? Where's your anti tank? Yes black Knights have plasma, but in my experience, black Knights die in the first 2 turns. You've got nothing else that can deal with T7+, unless the deathwing Knights are way more effective for you than they are for me

I can drop scouts onto my backline objectives as easily as I can send them midfield.

Why do I need a ton of anti-tank? Anything that invests too much in armor probably can't beat me on objective control. Also, the Talonmaster + Sammael blob versus T7 3+ goes something like; 54 shots, 50 hits, 19 wounds, 9.5 unsaved wounds (12.67 wounds on T1). That's frightening to a lot of armor, even if I'd rather they shoot at tanks most of the time.

As for RW BKs and their survivability, I've seen them survive disgusting amounts of incoming fire when Transhuman Physiology is used on them and with my CP pool I'll have no issues dropping that on them as needed.

Are you running your DWKs down people's throats with 6" charges from reserves?

None of this is to say that there aren't counters to my list or that it doesn't need changes, I'm already cutting the Librarians for a RW Apothecary plus whatever else I can fit with the leftover points.

Regarding anti tank - that amount of wounds is not frightening at all to mecha lists. You are not killing poor rhino even... not to mention that apart from this you've got only RWBK for turn 1. There are lists that will blow you up in 2 turns with that low amount of threats.

I can tell you that 3 Typhoon speeders around Sammy and the Talonmaster can put out some pretty good anti tank.

The trick is to not leave them too exposed in the process because speeders are like paper bags against good anti tank firepower.

TirScath wrote:
Regarding anti tank - that amount of wounds is not frightening at all to mecha lists. You are not killing poor rhino even... not to mention that apart from this you've got only RWBK for turn 1. There are lists that will blow you up in 2 turns with that low amount of threats.

Agreed here, what does an Eldar player care when he has 3 Nightspinners, 3 Prisms, 3 Crimson Hunters etc (that's combined, not choose 3 of them?

 bullyboy wrote:

TirScath wrote:
Regarding anti tank - that amount of wounds is not frightening at all to mecha lists. You are not killing poor rhino even... not to mention that apart from this you've got only RWBK for turn 1. There are lists that will blow you up in 2 turns with that low amount of threats.

Agreed here, what does an Eldar player care when he has 3 Nightspinners, 3 Prisms, 3 Crimson Hunters etc (that's combined, not choose 3 of them?

In that case, I also put the bikes plasma talons into the tanks and play the objectives. The list has also evolved to have a Smash Master and RW Apothecary to help get the DW Knights where they need to be.

-----

After some initial feedback about my list I've come around to the following. I'm looking for feedback that will further help me refine this into something worth putting on the table.



DW Ancient gets Master of Maneuver for 1 CP so this list really has 11 CP to work with.

 Canadian 5th wrote:


After some initial feedback about my list I've come around to the following. I'm looking for feedback that will further help me refine this into something worth putting on the table.

I like the adjustments you've made for the most part.

Whats with the smash master? If hes supporting the knights I feel like a termie librarian casting righteous and aversion would help the DWK a lot more. A smash cap might have trouble getting into combat effectively.

I dont think you have priced in the Watcher in the Dark on your DWK squad.

If you were to strip the scouts of their cloaks and the helix and downgrade the master to a termie lib, that leaves you with 70 points to get 2 more DWK or RWBK. Just food for thought.

Otherwise it seems to be a flavorful list as you can get while being as competitive as possible.

 Smirrors wrote:
I like the adjustments you've made for the most part.

Whats with the smash master? If hes supporting the knights I feel like a termie librarian casting righteous and aversion would help the DWK a lot more. A smash cap might have trouble getting into combat effectively.

The smash master is there as another anti-tank threat as well as another deep strike option that can start out on the table or in reserves based on the scenario. They also seem pretty popular in a lot of lists so I figured there must be something to having one. I'm also considering spending a CP to get him a master-crafted Thunder Hammer but I'll certainly try him both with an without and see if D4 is worth 1 CP over D3.

I dont think you have priced in the Watcher in the Dark on your DWK squad.

It seems you are correct. I was tweaking points at the end to reach 2,000 and must have miscounted. It's not essential

If you were to strip the scouts of their cloaks and the helix and downgrade the master to a termie lib, that leaves you with 70 points to get 2 more DWK or RWBK. Just food for thought.

I have the bikes to upsize the RWBKs so this is an option if the current form of my list feels a little off.

Otherwise it seems to be a flavorful list as you can get while being as competitive as possible.

That's the goal. Be competitive without just being a flier spam tournament list; be fluffy without giving up that competitive edge.

I have been thinking about trying a board control alpha strike list. It would look something like:

Master in Phobos armor
LT in Phobos
3 5 man Infiltrators
2 Invictors with Incendium Cannon

Azrael
Lt
Chapter Ancient
4 Plasma Vets
3 Plasma Vets
2 10 man Tactical squads with Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon and Sgt with Combi Plasma
10 man scout Snipers with cloaks
3 drop pods

General idea is that the Phobos characters, Infiltrators and Scouts hold objectives on my side of the board and help with Deep Strike denial.

The drop pods land on whichever flank that's needed with the Invictors sneaking in.

I am going to be proxying it over the next few weeks to see how it does but am pretty optimistic about it.

 Reivax26 wrote:
I have been thinking about trying a board control alpha strike list. It would look something like:

Master in Phobos armor
LT in Phobos
3 5 man Infiltrators
2 Invictors with Incendium Cannon

Azrael
Lt
Chapter Ancient
4 Plasma Vets
3 Plasma Vets
2 10 man Tactical squads with Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon and Sgt with Combi Plasma
10 man scout Snipers with cloaks
3 drop pods

General idea is that the Phobos characters, Infiltrators and Scouts hold objectives on my side of the board and help with Deep Strike denial.

The drop pods land on whichever flank that's needed with the Invictors sneaking in.

I am going to be proxying it over the next few weeks to see how it does but am pretty optimistic about it.

I can see what it's supposed to do it just seems like there are a few inefficient choices made along the way.

That 10 man Tactical squad with all of its upgrades and a drop pod costs 223 points. That's steep for both their survivability and their ability to kill other units. On top of it all, you've limited where you can drop to places where the pod and 10 marines can fit instead of just needing to fit 10 models that can get there without a pod.

Swapping them for two units of 7 infiltrators saves 138 points, which could get you a Dev Squad with 4 plasma cannons to make up for the plasma you lost in those tac squads. Those 7 infiltrators are also almost as survivable as the tacs against D2 weapons and more survivable against D1 weapons.

I've already been toying with a similar type of list, just going for ground control like that. Slightly inspired by a Blood Angels list run by a friend of mine, except DA don't get Death Company or Sanguinary Guard. The main thing I was thinking was double Batallion with Scouts in one and decent-sized units of Intercessors in the other, and a bunch of our special characters to buff them. Especially Asmodai for the +1A to give those Intercessors 4 attacks on the charge (5 for Sergeants, don't forget the hammers!). Azrael could give a bunch of them a 4++ and full rerolls to hit too. For dealing with larger targets, some Ravenwing characters could use Combined Assault to bring in a big unit of Deathwing Knights.

Just something I've been kicking around in my head for the last couple of weeks.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

The smash master is there as another anti-tank threat as well as another deep strike option that can start out on the table or in reserves based on the scenario. They also seem pretty popular in a lot of lists so I figured there must be something to having one. I'm also considering spending a CP to get him a master-crafted Thunder Hammer but I'll certainly try him both with an without and see if D4 is worth 1 CP over D3.

While he sounds good on paper, in practice I think you will find he wont be as effective as he is with other chapters. Other chapters have ways of buffing their captains ability to make a charge or buff their hitting ability all of which DA do not have. At best he is used as a counter charger as deep striking is really not a good enough option with only a 50% success rate. 5 attacks on the charge hitting on 3s rerolling 1's is really underwhelming against many high value targets particularly ones with invulns. You really have to commit to using the 3cp strat honor the chapter to get any mileage out of him. If you do bring him then you really need the relic upgrade as you are likely to only get 2 or 3 wounds through. The 12 damage (from 3 attacks) is likely to kill something light like a flyer but less likely to hurt a knight which is what you kind of want and need him to do (that is what a blood angels smash cap is capable of doing in comparison).

The Terminator Lib on the other hand really increases the value to your Knights for relatively cheap cost.

I also tested the Smash Master a few weeks ago and he was super underwhelming in my matches. I brought him as "Insurance" to protect and travel with 2 Executioners. Game 1, he killed an Impulsor (97pts) and died shortly after. Game 2, he babysat a backfield objective the whole game. Game 3 he died to Overwatch from 2 Centurions (thats what we get for not being able to deny overwatch). Obviously anecdotal but its about par for what you would expect to do on the table top.

Regarding Smash Master:
What you can do is:
- Give him the Stratagem “Inner Circle”, so he gets the DW Keyword
- Give him the DW Warlord Trait: Lay low the mighty
- Give him the Relic: Key of Archrabael

So, you get a Smash Master with Str.10, 6 Attacks re-roll ones to hit and re-roll wound rolls against Characters and/or units with a wound characteristic with 8 or more.

This isn’t bad.

Maxamato wrote:
Regarding Smash Master:
What you can do is:
- Give him the Stratagem “Inner Circle”, so he gets the DW Keyword
- Give him the DW Warlord Trait: Lay low the mighty
- Give him the Relic: Key of Archrabael

So, you get a Smash Master with Str.10, 6 Attacks re-roll ones to hit and re-roll wound rolls against Characters and/or units with a wound characteristic with 8 or more.

This isn’t bad.

It's not too bad, but there are generally better things to spend our warlord trait/relic slots on. If you really want a good Smash Captain, play BA instead.

Regarding the DW Knight blob, I got a chance to try it out in a friendly game last evening (at a friends's house; the FLGSs in town aren't hosting games due to COVID-19). He was playing Thousand Sons with Daemon allies. I was too cagey in my first couple of turns and so was out of position to effectively use the blob. Still managed to drop several characters with it, and survived a surprising number of mortal wounds thanks to the Pennant of Remembrance. Lost the game but I learned some things. That banner is a must-have for these guys to keep them alive. Didn't end up needing Transhuman Physiology, but I know it's also something to budget a couple of CP for. Also, a Ravenwing Apothecary is a pretty good delivery mechanism since he is generally useful even outside of using Combined Assault.

My current list idea. It's the same as before but without the Smash Captain and camo cloaks and with a Terminator Libby and 1 extra RW BK per unit.



DW Ancient gets Master of Maneuver for 1 CP so this list really has 11 CP to work with. The Librarian will likely take Aversion and Righteous Repugnance.

I am currently building a Dark Angels Phobos army.
Mainly because I think the Stealth theme fits the green colour and Primaris Dark Angels are going to be inevitable in the foreseeable future - I just hope we get Primaris deathwing Knights sooner than later.

My question is, about the Invictor tactical warsuit.
I think for dark angels it's a great unit if equipped with the flamer because of the +6 extra range turn one.
You get an effective 28" range considering its 10" move.
Therefore you don't have to deploy it right in the enemies face but can rather make use of some terrain in case you go second.

However, how does 2D6 autohit shots (=7 hits on average) compare to the Autocannon?
I know it's only 6 shots and if I move that equals 3 hits on average. But the damage and strength characteristics are much better.

What do you guys think about dark angels Phobos lists and the Invictor in particular?
I also plan to add an executioner and 2 Impulsors with 5 Hellblasters each (I know, not the tournament 10 man blob for weapons of the dark age, but this can be used on the executioner as well )

New tactics article featuring our favorite Green Marines:
https://www.theartofwar40k.com/home/faction-focus-dark-angels?fbclid=IwAR148Ejeua73tEaUpJBjI-P2d7TG6MQPYBR9iMinhlcsWiZA_wko5kqkBXE
By none other than Nick Nanavati!

Is there any reason why Dark Angels to use the Exhortation of Rage Litany over Litany of Hate.

Exhortation allows additional hit rolls on natural 6s whilst Litant of Hate allows full re-rolls.

Would like to know the consensus about these two Litanies.

elook wrote:
Is there any reason why Dark Angels to use the Exhortation of Rage Litany over Litany of Hate.

Exhortation allows additional hit rolls on natural 6s whilst Litant of Hate allows full re-rolls.

Would like to know the consensus about these two Litanies.

One thing I can think of is that if you want full rerolls in melee, have a Libby cast Righteous Repugnance on whichever unit is fighting.

If we have a detachment from another Space Marine army we lose the Super doctrine right?

Correct

If anyone hasn't noticed the new rules about putting stuff in Reserves and then coming in wherever you want that might help us out considerably.

Ravenwing flanks in, big blob of Deathwing Knights land 6 inches away from opponent, whatever they charge dies horribly...

Just a thought.

So with the news of 9th edition coming soon, what's on your wishlist in terms of things that could be reasonably tweaked to keep us on par with our vanilla cousins?

I never actually got my purchases made or games played due to Covid so I don't have any practical knowledge of my own to contribute.

Primaris bikes are a thing, hopefully we'll get a unique ravenwing unit

Deathwing and Ravenwing are CP hungry - it looks like the new CP system will make an all Deathwing/Ravenwing force at least thinkable in terms of CP. Agree that being able to put Black Knights in Reserve and come on the table edges could be useful.

 Repent wrote:
Primaris bikes are a thing, hopefully we'll get a unique ravenwing unit

I'd settle for the Primaris bikes in a Dark Angels army getting the Ravenwing keyword.

Any chance the new blast weapon changes makes it possible that we see a Land Speeder Vengeance on the table once in a blue moon?

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
Any chance the new blast weapon changes makes it possible that we see a Land Speeder Vengeance on the table once in a blue moon?

Ha! I'd forgotten about those things ,

Combined with it now being able to move and fire without penalty its a possibility at least? I know I'm definitely interested in the spotter Landspeeder and whirlwind combo now too.

I think we are almost certainly going to see more typhoons flying about for a start. Maybe, just maybe, even speeders with multimeltas and hvy flamers!! OG marine loadlouts for the win!!

I am more interested in the fact that vehicles and dreadnoughts can move and fire with no penalty.

I immediately thought of Nephilim Jetfighters and Dark Talons. They both just got way better. Hitting on 2s as long as they are shooting something on the ground with their possible loadouts is ridiculous.

And with the new flyer rules they just previewed today, if one flies off the table it can come in anywhere on the board more than 9" from an enemy next turn, so easy to set up a perfect firing solution!

The Sammael Speeder deathball is simpler now - no need to burn a Warlord trait on a Talonmaster to avoid the moving and shooting penalty. Maybe Nephilims will see more action now? I am excited about Dreadnoughts, but I guess they aren't just a DA thing...

One of the announcers on the stream, which iirc is a designer on the game, mentioned repeatedly that the bikes are Ravenwing, and It looks like there are Ravenwing and Deathwing symbols on the transfer sheet.

If the bikes get the Ravenwing keyword, and if the shield guys and the Ancient get the Deathwing keyword for the 5+++ banner (and especially if they have storm shields and not some other nonsense "primaris shield" for the -1 to wound strat) some very strong combos will open up.

The Dark Talon Was not in the aircraft list - a mistake?

Aeri wrote:
The Dark Talon Was not in the aircraft list - a mistake?

It was definitely there. Listed as the Ravenwing Dark Talon.

Oh right.
Still weird for me that the nephilim has no Ravenwing in its name

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
Any chance the new blast weapon changes makes it possible that we see a Land Speeder Vengeance on the table once in a blue moon?

I don't think the Blast rule will help. If you're firing at hordes with the plasma weapon, things are not well. I also don't expect many people will be running 6-10 models of elite things, For example, in my harlequins, skyweavers will be capped at 5, same with Aggressors I expect. Why take the extra dude to improve enemy shooting at you?

Question does come up for Hellblasters though....although I think the 10 man hellblaster castle is a dead end build anyway. 5 man in Impulsors probably better.

Welp, so the last community post suggested converting the new primaris outrider models with RW wings to fit DA, which would suggest to me that we're not going to see chapter-specific primaris stuff, including bikes, for a while.

How many of you are going to be ripping the hussar wings off of your RW bikes and pinning on these new dudes?

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
Welp, so the last community post suggested converting the new primaris outrider models with RW wings to fit DA, which would suggest to me that we're not going to see chapter-specific primaris stuff, including bikes, for a while.

How many of you are going to be ripping the hussar wings off of your RW bikes and pinning on these new dudes?

I'm pretty sure I have enough RW decorations to spruce them up. Thinking beakie helms too, and probably cutting up shoulder pads and replacing with RW ones.

WH Community site has new the Primaris Bladeguard models painted up in Deathwing livery. Not the same as rules, but perhaps an indication of an expanded Deathwing moving forward.

Where did you see that?

well, today they confirmed that the Bladeguard are in the 1st company, so Deathwing keyword should get attached. It does mean that they will get the benefit of the deathwing relic banner though.

 bullyboy wrote:
well, today they confirmed that the Bladeguard are in the 1st company, so Deathwing keyword should get attached. It does mean that they will get the benefit of the Deathwing relic banner though.

I see positives and negative to this from a fluff point of view (yes i know this is a tactica thread, please be kind I'll get there eventually)

First off, its always welcome to see an expansion of the 1st company's ranks, however, one of the major draws of the Dark Angels is that we have always been able to field our ENTIRE 1st company in Terminator Armour because we have more of them in working order than any other chapter. Now if this gets expanded to Terminator and GRAVIS armourd units then I'll be a happy bunny. perhaps the Bladeguard in Dark Angels armies could be utilized in the same manner that we get company veterans? After all, one of the big draws to the Sons of the Lion is that we are almost But Not Quite a codex chapter. I am thinking they will take the approach that we already have Deathwing keyworded characters running our companies why not a unit? This is entirely a headcannon thing though so...

Game wise? If those bikers do indeed get the Ravenwing keyword then holy moly thats going to be a big thing for us. While we don't know the full rules yet, stat wise those primaris bikers are absolutely nuts! Jink saves on a T5 4W model...yes please!!!

Having used DW knights quite a lot i know how nasty storm shield units can be with our new deathwing related strats, so from a gaming point of view..bring it on with the bladeguard!

May i also say that what with all the ornamentation and robes on these models, it will simply be a case of add a few spare DA bits and done!

I have played Deathwing since 2nd ed book, and deathwing/ravenwing since 4th, but I cant remember a time i thought this army set up could be as viable as it now seems.

On another note, looks like I may have to invest in a few more venerable dreadnoughts..........

Hey folks, as a last hurrah in 8th I wanted to run a Dark Angels list. I have never played them before, but wanted to give it a go. How viable does this look?

Aeri wrote:
Where did you see that?

Sorry - I am on my phone with a janky connection so I can’t seem to link. There is an article today on the Community Page (Jun 18)

weaver9 wrote:
Hey folks, as a last hurrah in 8th I wanted to run a Dark Angels list. I have never played them before, but wanted to give it a go. How viable does this look?

Spoiler:

Basically:

Azrael
Sammi in Sable

X3 Scouts

Talon master
black knights (9)
Black knights (9)
Landspeeder vengeance

Terminator librarian
Deathwing ancient
Deathwing knights (7)
Invictor

Most of it looks ok,but...

I can't see what Azrael is going to be doing in this list, his BIG thing is the 4+ invuln aura for infantry. The only units in your list that might get any use out of this is your scouts and as you'll probably be using them to forward deploy then they wont get any use out of it. Maybe reduce the 9 man RW knights to 6 man and put in some intercessors (or better yet hellblasters) for him to wander about with.

On that subject....Ravenwing knights are very dangerous and your opponent will know this. They tend to get focused down immediately. Keep the squads small enough to hide- 9 bikes have a huge footprint I'd recommend units of 3 min max 6. Big units sound fun but currently they are nowhere near survivable enough to justify and also possibly overkill depending on you're target. Also, multiple small units can threaten more areas of the board than 1 big one.

Do you have the vigilus book? if yes, put all your ravenwing in the specialist detachment...its very very good.

Landspeeder vengeances are (at least in 8th rules) damn near useless unfortunately.

What i can see from this list is too many points on black knights, not enough units.
My advice? swap out Azrael and the vengeance for more terminators or bikers ( I play dw/rw and know the temptation to field max size units well).

Hope this helps a bit.

I am thinking that 9th is going to rock for us. Flanking Black Knights could be a good deterrent for how opponents deploy in the beginning of the game.

princeyg wrote:

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
Any chance the new blast weapon changes makes it possible that we see a Land Speeder Vengeance on the table once in a blue moon?

Ha! I'd forgotten about those things ,

Combined with it now being able to move and fire without penalty its a possibility at least? I know I'm definitely interested in the spotter Landspeeder and whirlwind combo now too.

I think we are almost certainly going to see more typhoons flying about for a start. Maybe, just maybe, even speeders with multimeltas and hvy flamers!! OG marine loadlouts for the win!!

The speeder/WW Combo has been written out of the new SM codex, if you’re thinking about investing in minis specifically to use the strat bear in mind it’s days are possibly numbered

So, the Dark Angels Faction Focus article is up. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/07/03/faction-focus-dark-angels/

No rules glimpses, since I guess that cat is well and truly out of the bag...The article doesn't really tell us very much, was hoping they might talk about Storm Shields when they show the Deathwing Knights but they just showed the weapons. At the very bottom, however, they do confirm that the new Outriders will get the Ravenwing keyword and Bladeguard Veterans will get the Deathwing keyword. I imagine that there will be a Dark Angels "FAQ" on day one that gives a rundown of how the new units interact with us.

Any thoughts on how the new edition will treat our army? Character-heavy lists face issues with CPs in the new edition so the Sammael/Talonmaster deathball is a major investment in HQ slots. On the other hand, our Landspeeders moving and shooting without penalty will be nice.

I kind of hoped that that it would be Gravis troops that get into the Deathwing, and the power amour lot would be company veterans

This still works for me

Anyone else digging the bike chaplain?

I am going to assume DA get all the new SM toys in 9th?

Those ATV thingies I think look good too. DW/RW is going to be fun times in 9th I think.

Single Battalion should work decent for us still. 3 HQ slots gives us room for Sammy and 2 Talonmasters. We'll see how the points look though. It'll be interesting to see how well the new Outriders do in a DA list. Having the Ravenwing keyword opens up several strats including Speed of the Raven and the one that lets us drop Deathwing close to the enemy.

On the Deathwing side, the Bladeguard Veterans will be decent with a Deathwing Ancient holding the relic banner nearby, as they'll then get a 5+++ on top of their other saves.

Overall, the thing I'm actually looking forward to the most will be painting the new models in DA colors, as they are awesome!

The Relic Shields they are carrying already give them a 4 up FNP from what I understand. So around Azrael is where they get crazy.

The Relic Shield is the one on the Captain/Master, and it gives a 4+++ against MW only, not against all wounds.

The Lieutenant and Bladeguard have "Storm Shields" that provide a 4++ and +1 to save.

The bladeguard seem like a decent choice to go in my Redeemer, as my knights have mostly been using the ravenwing related teleport strategem.

Looking forward to rocking up with the redeemer and going..."go on then..charge me I dare you...."

princeyg wrote:
The bladeguard seem like a decent choice to go in my Redeemer, as my knights have mostly been using the ravenwing related teleport strategem.

Looking forward to rocking up with the redeemer and going..."go on then..charge me I dare you...."

Except that Primaris models can't go in a Redeemer. They can, however, ride in either model of Repulsor, or an Impulsor if that's your jam.

A big squad of Bladeguard Vets with some character support in a Repulsor might be alright. If can screen for them.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

princeyg wrote:
The bladeguard seem like a decent choice to go in my Redeemer, as my knights have mostly been using the ravenwing related teleport strategem.

Looking forward to rocking up with the redeemer and going..."go on then..charge me I dare you...."

Except that Primaris models can't go in a Redeemer. They can, however, ride in either model of Repulsor, or an Impulsor if that's your jam.

OH heck, serves me right for not actually using primaris very often, had completely forgotten about that.

Bladeguard in impulsors sound fun, however I am annoyed of the new 3 man squad sizes we are seeing more and more.
I want to be able to field them in larger unitsto make use of the transport capacity.

Do you guys think baldeguard will be our new Deathwing hotness or should we wait to see what gw makes exclusively for DW (in 3-10 years)

Aeri wrote:
Bladeguard in impulsors sound fun, however I am annoyed of the new 3 man squad sizes we are seeing more and more.
I want to be able to field them in larger unitsto make use of the transport capacity.

Do you guys think baldeguard will be our new Deathwing hotness or should we wait to see what gw makes exclusively for DW (in 3-10 years)

Aren't DW Knights just better other than they have 1 less wound and can't go in a repulsor?

I am of the mindset that in 9th Deathwing Knights in a Crusader with character support is going to be viable. Especially with something to block for them, like maybe drop pod squads.

Center objectives are going to be really important so we rush the center with our Land Raider while using the drop pods and squads inside as a wall to help protect the center.

Add in some Ravenwing to grab objectives in the late game and that's not a bad strategy at all.

Deathwing knights are great in 8th anyway, I also think they will be very very good in 9th.

With the new missions encouraging moving to the middle of the board early, I agree that putting them in a land raider of some type will be the way to go. They are tough enough to hold objectives really well (especially with strategem support) and can threaten pretty much any unit in combat.

Now that my thought of raider based bladeguard has been shot down (admittedly by my own oversight) I think its gotta be the knights and ancient in my redeemer, use them to punch into the middle of the board and hold it, while the ravenwing threaten the flanks. Looking forward to trying the new rules.

As an aside, while my Nids will be mostly used for pick up games, my Dw/Rw are going to be in the crusade campaign..love the idea of following a small group of them as they hunt down their targets (also, very small army which will help with the amount of bookeeping that seems to be involved)

I prefer the redeemer
Just the ability to charge my LR into enemy troops just to shoot them with my flamer next turn is amazinf

I would suggest the possibility of dropping DW Knights from a Stormraven, but it looks like it's still going to be too expensive for what it does in 9th. Oh well.

Maybe a squad in each?

It feels like we're going to be well suited for the new mission structure. We have a lot of fast hard-hitting units, durable melee units that can drop in at 6" range and delete most reasonable backfield objective holders, and 4++ saves/-1 to hit for the units tasked with holding our own backlines.

Dark Angels points are being leaked by Youtubers. It's hard to follow, but for the most part we are in step with Space Marine points leaked around two weeks ago. Key Dark Angels specific units appear to be:

Azrael - 160
Belial - 125
Sammael in Sableclaw - 210
Sammael on Corvex - 140
Ezekiel - 115

Deathwing Knights - 41 per model

Ravenwing Black Knights - 40

Nephilim - 105 (Avenger Mega Bolter 35)
Dark Talon - 185

My limited games thus far tell me that controlling or at least contesting the middle of the board early is important. The Deathwing might just be a big part of that. Looking at the pros and cons of bringing the Black Knights on from a flank. Makes sense, but they really need character support. I suppose I could orchestrate Sammael and a Talonmaster to be in the right place to support them? Landspeeders might be important to protect our own Speeder characters with the new rules.

From the "Relic of the Damned" FAQ on Warhammer Community: *Page 56 – Impeccable Mobility
Change this Warlord Trait to read:
‘Whilst they are within 6" of this Warlord, models in Ravenwing
units from your army that have Advanced this turn can treat
any Heavy weapons they are equipped with as Assault weapons.
In addition, such models do not suffer the penalty for Advancing
and firing Assault weapons.’

So we can advance and fire heavy weapons with no penalty?

 Freeflow44 wrote:
From the "Relic of the Damned" FAQ on Warhammer Community: *Page 56 – Impeccable Mobility
Change this Warlord Trait to read:
‘Whilst they are within 6" of this Warlord, models in Ravenwing
units from your army that have Advanced this turn can treat
any Heavy weapons they are equipped with as Assault weapons.
In addition, such models do not suffer the penalty for Advancing
and firing Assault weapons.’

So we can advance and fire heavy weapons with no penalty?

Ravenwing ones anyway. Lots just dropped in the FAQs bringing us up to 9th Ed. Most seems to be expected. Grim Resolve now means that we automatically pass all Attrition Tests, for instance.

The char sniping talonmaster is nice
the loosing a bit on our super doctrine for ravinwing kinda sux due to changing heavy to assault
Any word on new points for talonmaster?

Should be 180 with what I have seen. 105 base, 30 for twin heavy bolters, 40 for twin Assault Cannon, 5 for Power Sword.

NOLA_tiger wrote:
The char sniping talonmaster is nice
the loosing a bit on our super doctrine for ravinwing kinda sux due to changing heavy to assault
Any word on new points for talonmaster?

How are we sniping characters with a Talonmaster? The Huntsman trait doesn't work for heavy weapons. I guess we can have one dash in and gun somebody down, but that means sacrificing a Talonmaster.

Because if double Talonmasters are in one place then one takes Impeccable Mobility to turn Heavy weapons into Assault weapons per the FAQ that just dropped about Ritual of the Damned.

The other takes Huntsman and the Corvus Occulus.

 Reivax26 wrote:
Because if double Talonmasters are in one place then one takes Impeccable Mobility to turn Heavy weapons into Assault weapons per the FAQ that just dropped about Ritual of the Damned.

The other takes Huntsman and the Corvus Occulus.

This is so broken

I think Ravenwing outriders are going to be sick.
6 Attacks on a charge per bike and 14'' move.
Combine with a chaplain and some other fancy RW units for extra fun.

My old list, spoilered below, went up to 2,230 pts:



My new list, trimmed down to a single Battalion, drops the Librarian, Infiltrators, 2 Units of Scouts, and the Darkshroud and adds in a Land Speeder Storm, and a unit of Eliminators.



I'm considering cutting a Black Knight from each squad and replacing a scout unit with something a bit tougher. I'm leaning towards Incursors because ignoring cover and modifiers to hit seems like it could be a big deal this edition.

Aeri wrote:
I think Ravenwing outriders are going to be sick.
6 Attacks on a charge per bike and 14'' move.
Combine with a chaplain and some other fancy RW units for extra fun.

Speed of the Raven on that unit will really give them a disgusting threat range. In Assault Doctrine they'll shred stuff hard.

I feel RW are going to be stupidly good this edition.

Add some DW for surgical DS disruption.

Hellblasters stayed the same points (cheaper with heavy version).
Having a 10 unit of Hellblasters in reserves sounds fun

I want RW themed force with some Scout units and DW.

Played a game today using the new rules.

Plasma inceptors are insane, good vs hordes due to blast weapon rule and tanks too.
Overcharging is much safer now since you die only on unmodified rolls of 1 which will be rerolled always

Talonmasters and sammy are autoincludes, this impeccable mobility trait is so broken.I didnt use huntmaster + impeccable mobility since that would be just cheating, but too me it seems getting bonus AP for 3 turns on all their weapons is too good.
They are definitely getting nerfed

Another great thing about them is that they are vehicles which work great with look out sir rules

Here the list:
talonmaster
talonmaster
sammael
infiltrator squad 5
infiltrator squad 5
infiltrator squad 5
Scout snipers
jetfighter
jetfighter
inceptors x3
inceptors x5
inceptors x5

Strategy was to put inceptors and nephelim jetfighters in reserves and hold on till turn 2. Most work will be done by characters and inceptors. Infiltrators scouts and jetfighters are needed mostly to gain control of the battle field and cover characters from enemy shooting

Ok well you answered my question as to whether you guys thought plasma inceptors were still the way to go. I'm just about done painting my hellblasters and a squad of 3 inceptors is up next.

Is only unmodified 1s killing overcharging Plasma officially a thing for Dark Angels yet in 9th? I’ve lost the plot on the leaks....

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Is only unmodified 1s killing overcharging Plasma officially a thing for Dark Angels yet in 9th? I’ve lost the plot on the leaks....

Yeah, Chapter traits haven't changed for DA. Grim Resolved changed in that if we fail morale we lose the initial model but ignore combat attrition so it's the same more or less.

jivardi wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Is only unmodified 1s killing overcharging Plasma officially a thing for Dark Angels yet in 9th? I’ve lost the plot on the leaks....

Yeah, Chapter traits haven't changed for DA. Grim Resolved changed in that if we fail morale we lose the initial model but ignore combat attrition so it's the same more or less.

Actually, Impeccable mobility got changed and there are lots of arguments about how its supposed to work:

*Page 56 – Impeccable Mobility Change this Warlord Trait to read: ‘Whilst they are within 6" of this Warlord, models in Ravenwing units from your army that have Advanced this turn can treat any Heavy weapons they are equipped with as Assault weapons. In addition, such models do not suffer the penalty for Advancing and firing Assault weapons.’

Which if im not mistaken allows you to advance you talonmasters and sammael, shoot without penalties and benefit from combat doctrines for three turns.

Add another warlord trait for your second talonmaster and you get the best sniper in the game:

*Page 138 – Warlord Traits, Huntsman, rules text Change the first sentence to read: ‘Each time you select a target for a Pistol, Assault, Rapid Fire or Grenade weapon this Warlord is making an attack with, you can ignore the Look Out, Sir rule.

Going by RAW everything seems to be legal, but by RAI its clear that heavy weapons shouldnt get bonuses other than first turn nor should they be allowed to be used with huntsman for any reasons.