Oh yeah, sorry. Stormbolter and chainsword. I have a bunch of DWK and other heavy-hitting units that are really expensive, so crowd control comes at a premium.
Standard setup that's been seeing most of my lists that I've been putting together lately. Should have the first opportunity to actually put it to the test tomorrow.
Drop pod with:
5x vets with storm bolter and chainsword
2x company champs
Lieutenant w/ mace of redemption
Azzy
Asmodai
Hmm... I'll try the 5 man squad with stormbolters and Chainsword. I have a ton of Stormbolters from Terminators, but do you know a cheap source of chainswords?
I have a ton of Chaos Marines chainsword but they are very... chaosy
Thanks for the vet feedback yall.
Guess i know where all my excess deathwing storm bolter hands are going.
Out of interest, havent ever bought a codex or played, were stormbolters always available to powerarmour units?
Snail22 wrote: Out of interest, havent ever bought a codex or played, were stormbolters always available to powerarmour units?
They were indeed, at least for characters. They weren't a very competitive choice in the last edition at least, costing 5 points for an Assault 2 gun (2 shots instead of 4). They're a steal now!
I'm really liking this vets with champions idea a lot. I'd initially planned to drop the Champs behind my bikers, but if they bring their own crowd control and bodyguards, there's no need for that. I don't like the diminished chances of getting multiple Champions immediately into combat (since there are fewer of them to begin with, obviously), but I think that trade is probably worthwhile. It cuts down the cost of the drop dramatically, too. I'll give that a shot next time around, for sure.
Guys, I'm expecting Champions to get a price bump at some point, so I'm not sure it's a great idea to go all in with converting them. They may be the next Malefic Lords. That said, right now they are really solid! I've got one and I should perhaps make another.
ZergSmasher wrote: Guys, I'm expecting Champions to get a price bump at some point, so I'm not sure it's a great idea to go all in with converting them. They may be the next Malefic Lords. That said, right now they are really solid! I've got one and I should perhaps make another.
I expect a numbers restriction rather than a points bump, although of course the latter is possible. They might do something like "You may take one Company Champion per Dark Angels Detachment" or something like that.
Agree. I don't think they're *that* much better than DWK, so more than 5-ish point increase would basically render them useless. Numbers restriction makes more sense to me.
Used the Company Champions today. Wasn't really amazed.
3 charged a 4-man Deathwatch Terminator unit (Sarge with TH/SS, 3 with Assault Cannons and another one was barebones). One died to Overwatch (highly unusual, I know) and the other 2 killed 1 Termie. The Termie unit cleaned the ground with them.
Later, other 2 charged a Captain with just a Chainsword and a 4++. NEITHER managed to land a single wound, while the Captain dealt 2W to one of them. Next round, the Captain left the battle while those Champions endured some shooting to 1W left each. They charged the Captain AGAIN and... failed miserably to deal one simple wound. The Captain killed them.
My tip is to not use them vs anything with a reasonable invulnerable save
Geez, Vector, you had some pretty awful luck. By the numbers, each Champ should kill a Terminator pretty reliably each round of combat. The Captain should've been toast, too. Give them another shot. It sounds like your dice hated you.
So had my first game with the new book tonight. Played ITC missions against my usual opponent who is probably one of the best Tau players in the area. Pulled out a win but it was a blood bath. Proxied ravenwing and my character and vet packed drop pod.
I'm not going to do a full write-up, but I'll list the noteworthy bits.
- ravenwing is strong but there are hard choices to be made. You want to keep your units together to maximize all of your force multipliers with Sammael, the talonmaster, and the darkshroud, but many abilities and pushing objectives will force you to split up, especially against a mobile opponent. Making the choice of maximizing your damage output vs keeping them alive through your opponent's turn is a difficult call on almost every turn (which for me makes for highly engaging gameplay).
- the drop pod worked for me but it was hard to utilize. Due to the large footprint of the pod (we played with the doors open), and savy deployment and moves by my opponent, it was hard to find good places to drop. In addition, you need to make sure you are dropping against units that it makes sense to engage. In my case I really had little choice but to drop it against a couple units of plasma crisis suits and their accompanying gun drones. I was fortunate enough to have him in a position where he had to engage the stuff that dropped in so that he had a chance to score some points and deny me the same, otherwise he could have simply jumped away. In the end it worked out, but it could have gone very bad.
- killing all of his markerlights, then getting -1 to hit my guys thanks to the darkshroud just felt like kicking a puppy. It really neutered his ability to respond to my moves.
In the end this feels like a ”high floor/high ceiling” type of build. It can be frustrating but also highly rewarding. Mistakes by either player will hurt...a lot.
On Company Champions: I really hope they don't limit their numbers. I'd like to see Blade of Caliban costing 5p or something like that.
They can't get a Jump Pack, both Stormraven and Land Raider can be destroyed and Drop Pods put them 9" away. A smart player can really keep them away from you. No reason to limit their number, I'd say.
Also, I don't think they'll fix the Combat Shield thing, as SM has the same situation and their codex already got a FAQ... which didn't even touch Company Champions.
My champ is a champion from the command squad set with the sword from the DA upgrade sprue and a backpack made from an old Swooping Hawk set of wings and the original Cypher backpack with the skeleton draped on it. He looks like a real avenging angel, I'm pretty proud of it (paint job needs some retouching, though, I painted it years ago)
As usual, I've whipped up several lists that I want to try out, but won't have time to do the games for a while.
I had my new years 2v2 game yesterday, 1000 points per player. Went Sammael, a Talonmaster, 2 bike squads (plasmax2, combiplasma), and a black knights squad. Teammate did deathwing with a single bike squad.
They did blood angels and space wolves, though I wouldn't be able to relate the exact lists to you. I recall bjorn and a squad of wolfen on the SW side, and a captain, chaplin, and a couple assault squads on the BA side.
They got too many tactical objectives first turn, which led us to try to table them to win. It went pretty blow for blow the entire time, but we barely wound up tabling them on round 5.
Some takeaways:
Other than soaking a decent number of bullets, the DW didn't do a whole lot. they wiped out a couple of devastator squads on the other side of the map from where all the action was going on at, but then couldn't really walk back far enough to do anything good.
Attack bikes are a good source of ablative wounds, though I'm not sure they're point efficient.
Bikes as a whole put out buckets of bullets though, particularly with the support hqs. Man, I was impressed.
Sammael is a monster in melee, and seems all around solid.
I made some pretty stupid mistakes, and we still wound up with maybe 400-500 points on the table when it ended. They had a few too, but all things considered, I could easily see a heavy Ravenwing list being a solid tournament contender for the future.
Hmm all of these reports are discouraging for my Deathwing-heavy project. I'd really like to build around a unit of 5 Knights, the Deathwing Champion, Apothecary, Ancient + Asmodai for maximum effectiveness. I don't play tournaments but my local meta has some solid lists, although no cheesy lists. I'd deliver them trough a deep-strike, but Asmodai can't do that, so either I load them up in a Land Raider (seems really costly), a Stormraven (dislike the model heavily), or I drop Asmodai and load up an Interrogator-Chaplain or a Librarian Terminator to cast Repugnance for the rerolls. What do you think is best ?
Also, how do you use your Knights ? Do you make them go after tanks, monsters, characters ? What are they best fighting against ?
Thinking to flesh out the rest of the list with Ravenwing and Greenwing, but I have some hesitations again.
Ravenwing: what roles do bikes fill ? Inceptors with bolters are good enough dakka-dealers and have roughly the same resilience, but can fly. Black Knights and their plasma can be replaced by Hellblasters for busting T7+, are they best used in CC with their Corvus hammers ? I was thinking about using Land Speeders with various heavy weapons, supported by either Sammael or a Talon Master. They're faster, can fly and looks resilient enough, the -1 to hit is mitigated by the characters' rerolls.
Greenwing: Intercessors really interest me, I'd like something that can hold my backfield objectives decently while having ObSec against late turns contesting shenanigans, and Scouts don't look like they'd be good for this role. I also have 30 tacs but as I understood they are somewhat mediocre, is that correct ? I could use full Scouts but they look like they'd just die quickly. Maybe a mix of Intercessors and Scouts ?
I think intercessors would be pretty good for backline holding, give them the stalker pattern bolt guns because DA get additional benefits for not moving, and have them camp out in the back because a 36" range str 4 AP -2 weapon gives them quite a bit of board presence.
Attack bikes don't really seem worth it because of the -1 to hit on the heavy weapon. 2 bikers is only 9 points more, is slightly more durable, has more shots, and more attacks in close combat, so unless you are going full squad it doesn't seem worth it.
I just played my DA + white scars list in a 1500 point tourney. It performed very well getting me the overall win with 3 max point wins.
Plasma inceptors are amazing, as are Sammie and the talonmaster, bike squads are good all around units that can handle multiple tasks during a game.
Aaranis wrote: Hmm all of these reports are discouraging for my Deathwing-heavy project. I'd really like to build around a unit of 5 Knights, the Deathwing Champion, Apothecary, Ancient + Asmodai for maximum effectiveness. I don't play tournaments but my local meta has some solid lists, although no cheesy lists. I'd deliver them trough a deep-strike, but Asmodai can't do that, so either I load them up in a Land Raider (seems really costly), a Stormraven (dislike the model heavily), or I drop Asmodai and load up an Interrogator-Chaplain or a Librarian Terminator to cast Repugnance for the rerolls. What do you think is best ?
Also, how do you use your Knights ? Do you make them go after tanks, monsters, characters ? What are they best fighting against ?
My Deathwing Knights will take on anything (well, maybe not Grots...) Mine have smashed tanks, Dreads, Killa Kans, Ork Mobs (the Flail and an accompanying DW Champion helped), Warbosses and other Terminators. They are best against high-value models with multiple wounds that rely on invulnerable saves. The -2 AP on the Maces mean that a 4++ or 5++ on the opponent is just business as usual, while Str 8 means that you will usually wound. The 3 wounds per strike is the killer. Combined with a Librarian's Righteous Repugnance and a DW Ancient within 6" and they can take down all sorts of nasties. Their flaw is relying on charge rolls. These guys have spent more of my CP than any other squad. I recall one tourney game where they never got into combat (but they also shaped the enemy). Still, a DW Knights squad in your list is an answer to the biggest, nastiest threat that your opponent can muster.
Aeri wrote: I began a unit rating for myself, but might aswell post it to open the discussion.
I didn't rate every unit, because I just dont have all of them and therefore dont care.
HQ:
Azrael: A+ [No explanation needed I guess. Great to keep Devs/Hellblasters alive]
Asmodai: A- [Great DWK Force Multiplier, but no Teleport Strike. Relies on riding a Landraider with a unit of DWK. Also works great with Company Veterans geared for melee.]
Sammael: A+ [Swift and deadly. Great Support for Black Knights and other Ravenwing units aswell. Can assault flyers with his S8 sword making him super versatile.]
Belial: B [Great Deathwing Multiplier and Combat beast, but suffers from the same problem every melee buff character has - he might not make the charge to support his unit.]
Interrogator Chaplain: C+ [Very expensive compared to a chaplain. The extra -1 to morale is rarely worth it. Pick a chaplain or Asmodai instead.]
Chaplain: B- [Good Melee Buff. When used in Terminator Armour to deep strike with terminators you have a high chance of him not making the charge and therefore not beeing able to buff the charging units. Works great in a transport though.]
Librarians C [Don't like our Powers, so librarians mostly don't see the board anymore.]
Troops:
Scouts: A- [Cheap and very versatile troop choice. Great to take objectives early on and harass/charge shooty units.]
Tactical Squad: B [The same solid troop choice as ever. Sturdy, can take many different weapons and are very flexible. Kind of expensive though, since our best units are super pricey. Need a Razorback or Rhino for best effectiveness or are doomed as a backline place and forget unit.]
Elite:
Deathwing Knights: A- [Pure deadlyness. Even better with Asmodai and a Deahwing Ancient. May get stuck if your Landraider blows early though. Darkshroud helps a lot to prevent this.]
Deathwing Terminators: C [Price and outshined in melee by DWK. For shooting there are better choices. Great to harass a backfield unit though and soak up enemy fire. If left alone they can hurt quite badly, so the enemy HAS to deal with them.]
Dreadnoughts: B+ [As Rifledreads a very solid choice, specially with our new reroll 1s. No degrading aswell. I prefer 2 with Twin Las/Twin Autocannon in my force.]
Venerable Dreadnoughts: A [Very potent backfield heavy weapon plattforms. BS2+ and reroll 1s almost guarantees hits. And they come with a 6+ FNP for extra toughness. worth the 20P upgrade!]
Fast Attack: Black Knights: A [Some of our best units. Deadly. Fast. Reliable. With Weapons of the Dark Age also super deadly. 6 can kill a Monolith in 1 shooting phase. They are also small enough to evade enemy fire if placed carefully. In melee they are "ok". Not as great as they used to be, but can still pack a punch with sammy and/or an ancient. Very expensive though.]
Ravenwing Bikes C- [Very expensive for what they bring to the field. Mediocre in melee, mediocre in shooting. I see little reason to field these guys.]
Darkshroud A [Great defensive tool. Let it protect the backfield, your transports or your bikes. It makes your units a lot tougher for very little points. Don't bother with weapon upgrades, it's not there to shoot stuff.]
Land Speeders B- [Very expensive, but versatile. Best used stationary because of their heavy weapons, and this is exactly where they are outshined by Dreadnoughts.]
Heavy Support: Devastators B+ [Superb Heavy hitters for your backline. With rerolls to 1s and our Plasma Stratagem they can really hurt stuff for reasonable points. Add Azrael or other buff units to make them even better. Might die quite easily though, since the unit is just 5 Marines.]
Predators A- [Tough and can hurt a lot. Best used with Predator Auto Cannon and Las Cannon sponsons. Other than Ven Dreads they lose BS when taking damage, making them less effective the longer the battle lasts.]
Landspeeder Vengeance D [Nopes. Just don't]
Land Raider Redeemer A- [Love this thing with DWK in it. The flamers are also great to kill flyers and other hard to hit stuff. Creates a nice threat bubble, but is kinda slow. Also can leave combat due to our new stratagem, eliminating one of the greatest weaknesses of landraiders. But who would want to charge this thing anyways?]
Land Raider Crusader B+ [Greater transport capacity, but less dmg output. IMHO the Darkshroud is better to take the anti horde role.]
Flyers: Nephilim Jetfighter: B+ [Great damage output and survivability. Can get kinda expensive though. Still a solid choice.]
Dark Talon: A- [One of our best anti horde tools. Cheap, tough and reliable. BF2+ hurricane bolters can get stuff done. The rift canon is a great addition to take on heavier targets. The stasis bomb is a 1 time gimmick - a good one.]
this is good and i've added to OP
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's my own garbage takes:
HQ: Azreal will be Warlord of nearly every Dark Angel army. Sammeal, Belial, Asmodai, Talonmaster, and a Jump Pack Master fill out the remaining HQ slots.
Troops: Scouts. Some with heavy weapons for mortal wound stratagems.
Elites: For now, the Company Champion's Blade of Caliban costs 0. Abuse this until it changes but don't spend money on it. Aggressors with boltstorms pair well with Azreal. Deathwing Ancient belongs in every Deathwing army.
Fast Attack: This is the good stuff. Plasma Inceptors and Black Knights can anchor an alpha-strike army. Darkshroud provides powerful defense if you need to play for all 6 turns.
Heavy Support: Plasma Cannon Devastators love Grim Resolve. Hellblasters pair well with Azreal.
Flyer: Dark Talon is great. Stormraven recently got more expensive but Fire Raptors got cheaper. Both require support to succeed.
Dedicated Transport: If you want a parking lot, play Ultramarines with Roboute.
Vector Strike wrote: Can normal Chaplains take Terminator armour? Can't find that option in the codex
No they cannot. Anyone worthy of wearing terminator armour is deathwing/inner circle, and standard chaplains don't have those honors, only int-chaplains. Int-chaplain is almost always an auto-upgrade anyway in my experience.
Vector Strike wrote: Can normal Chaplains take Terminator armour? Can't find that option in the codex
No they cannot. Anyone worthy of wearing terminator armour is deathwing/inner circle, and standard chaplains don't have those honors, only int-chaplains. Int-chaplain is almost always an auto-upgrade anyway in my experience.
Vector Strike wrote: Can normal Chaplains take Terminator armour? Can't find that option in the codex
No they cannot. Anyone worthy of wearing terminator armour is deathwing/inner circle, and standard chaplains don't have those honors, only int-chaplains. Int-chaplain is almost always an auto-upgrade anyway in my experience.
Belial or Asmodai.
Yes both great options. Unless you are a successor. Also Asmodai can't deep strike.
If you are just taking Deathwing Knights then an Interrogator-Chaplain in Terminator Armour can fit the bill since he gives them the rerolls for the Fight Phase. If I am taking Deathwing Terminators, though, I always take Belial. His shooting buff makes the arrival of the force painful for the enemy (using the Deathwing Assault Stratagem as appropriate), and he can carve a bloody swath through the enemy on his own with his sword. Since he also gives reroll misses in the Fight Phase he buffs the Knights as well as long you keep things synchronized. I've been trying to have two buffing characters in my Deathwing Vanguards for that reason. It doubles down on the cost, but I think I need to. A Librarian in Terminator Armour can also be useful - I've been trying one out. He gives some extra protection against Smite (in addition to the Watchers), while Righteous Repugnance (risky but potent) can let the Knights do their thing even if the support Character fails a charge roll or needs to be smashing something else in the face. Sometimes he even kills something!
Huh, so Dark Angels Intercessor Sergeants can now take power swords. Think that’s a divergence or will codex compliant marines get errata’d to be able to use them, too?
Either way, it’s one step closer to Intercessors replacing Tacticals.
[EDIT] I just checked, the Codex: Space Marine Intercessor dataslate says the sergeant may take a power sword too, even tho the Intercessor box does not include a power sword bit. And Blood Angels get a chainsword. I bet Space Wolves will get a blood frost axe of the wolf or something.
Aeri wrote: I began a unit rating for myself, but might aswell post it to open the discussion.
I didn't rate every unit, because I just dont have all of them and therefore dont care.
HQ:
Azrael: A+ [No explanation needed I guess. Great to keep Devs/Hellblasters alive]
Asmodai: A- [Great DWK Force Multiplier, but no Teleport Strike. Relies on riding a Landraider with a unit of DWK. Also works great with Company Veterans geared for melee.]
Sammael: A+ [Swift and deadly. Great Support for Black Knights and other Ravenwing units aswell. Can assault flyers with his S8 sword making him super versatile.]
Belial: B [Great Deathwing Multiplier and Combat beast, but suffers from the same problem every melee buff character has - he might not make the charge to support his unit.]
Interrogator Chaplain: C+ [Very expensive compared to a chaplain. The extra -1 to morale is rarely worth it. Pick a chaplain or Asmodai instead.]
Chaplain: B- [Good Melee Buff. When used in Terminator Armour to deep strike with terminators you have a high chance of him not making the charge and therefore not beeing able to buff the charging units. Works great in a transport though.]
Librarians C [Don't like our Powers, so librarians mostly don't see the board anymore.]
Troops:
Scouts: A- [Cheap and very versatile troop choice. Great to take objectives early on and harass/charge shooty units.]
Tactical Squad: B [The same solid troop choice as ever. Sturdy, can take many different weapons and are very flexible. Kind of expensive though, since our best units are super pricey. Need a Razorback or Rhino for best effectiveness or are doomed as a backline place and forget unit.]
Elite:
Deathwing Knights: A- [Pure deadlyness. Even better with Asmodai and a Deahwing Ancient. May get stuck if your Landraider blows early though. Darkshroud helps a lot to prevent this.]
Deathwing Terminators: C [Price and outshined in melee by DWK. For shooting there are better choices. Great to harass a backfield unit though and soak up enemy fire. If left alone they can hurt quite badly, so the enemy HAS to deal with them.]
Dreadnoughts: B+ [As Rifledreads a very solid choice, specially with our new reroll 1s. No degrading aswell. I prefer 2 with Twin Las/Twin Autocannon in my force.]
Venerable Dreadnoughts: A [Very potent backfield heavy weapon plattforms. BS2+ and reroll 1s almost guarantees hits. And they come with a 6+ FNP for extra toughness. worth the 20P upgrade!]
Fast Attack: Black Knights: A [Some of our best units. Deadly. Fast. Reliable. With Weapons of the Dark Age also super deadly. 6 can kill a Monolith in 1 shooting phase. They are also small enough to evade enemy fire if placed carefully. In melee they are "ok". Not as great as they used to be, but can still pack a punch with sammy and/or an ancient. Very expensive though.]
Ravenwing Bikes C- [Very expensive for what they bring to the field. Mediocre in melee, mediocre in shooting. I see little reason to field these guys.]
Darkshroud A [Great defensive tool. Let it protect the backfield, your transports or your bikes. It makes your units a lot tougher for very little points. Don't bother with weapon upgrades, it's not there to shoot stuff.]
Land Speeders B- [Very expensive, but versatile. Best used stationary because of their heavy weapons, and this is exactly where they are outshined by Dreadnoughts.]
Heavy Support: Devastators B+ [Superb Heavy hitters for your backline. With rerolls to 1s and our Plasma Stratagem they can really hurt stuff for reasonable points. Add Azrael or other buff units to make them even better. Might die quite easily though, since the unit is just 5 Marines.]
Predators A- [Tough and can hurt a lot. Best used with Predator Auto Cannon and Las Cannon sponsons. Other than Ven Dreads they lose BS when taking damage, making them less effective the longer the battle lasts.]
Landspeeder Vengeance D [Nopes. Just don't]
Land Raider Redeemer A- [Love this thing with DWK in it. The flamers are also great to kill flyers and other hard to hit stuff. Creates a nice threat bubble, but is kinda slow. Also can leave combat due to our new stratagem, eliminating one of the greatest weaknesses of landraiders. But who would want to charge this thing anyways?]
Land Raider Crusader B+ [Greater transport capacity, but less dmg output. IMHO the Darkshroud is better to take the anti horde role.]
Flyers: Nephilim Jetfighter: B+ [Great damage output and survivability. Can get kinda expensive though. Still a solid choice.]
Dark Talon: A- [One of our best anti horde tools. Cheap, tough and reliable. BF2+ hurricane bolters can get stuff done. The rift canon is a great addition to take on heavier targets. The stasis bomb is a 1 time gimmick - a good one.]
So here are my ratings for what I have played
HQ Sammael in sable claw - A+ Great in shooting, super mobile hands out some good buffs. Great in the assault, especially on the charge. If you are not running a gunline he is out best HQ Also very durable between T6 7 wounds and character protections. Combos well with scouts.
Talonmaster - B+ provides good buffs, if he takes the Heavenfall blade relic he is good in combat, good in shooting but really needs Sammi (or some other Master) for re-rolls due to hitting on a 4+ most of the time. If you are only taking 1 landspeeder HQ take sammi he is worth the extra points.
Master - B good all around, usually used with a Jump pack for the re-rolls 1 to hit buff. Consider if bringing inceptors.
Lieutenant - B good all around, usually used with a Jump pack for the re-rolls 1 buff. Consider if bringing inceptors, Master is more important though. A good cheap inclusion in an Azzy gunline though.
Azreal - A+ he is not an auto include, but will make most gunline builds. If you are bringing Helblasters he is going to come along.
Troops
Scouts - A - Best troop in the book and it isn't close. The provide alpha strike protection, can claim midfield objectives, and with the CA character rules change are a good pick for denying shooting targeting your Landspeeder borne HQ choices
Tacticals - C- - I really don't see why you would take them over scouts, but they are not terrible. I guess plasma + combi-plasma in a Razorback is an ok load out. I don't think any other build is worth bothering.
Intercessors - B - They are ok, they don't benefit as much from out tactics as other units or in other factions. They are not a bad pick, but with a lot of our other stuff being pricey it can be hard to fit in expensive troops as well.
Elites
DW terminators - C- So so, the DWA stratagem is too many CP, and you won't have many if you run a big terminator squad to take advantage of it. Terminators are just not that great this edition, and they don't really fill a role in most DA builds.
Fast Attack
RW black knights - C+ Not a big fan here, they are ok, but I think they are too expensive for their durability and we have other good plasma units. They are an obvious target for most players. I do think if you use them it is go big or go home. 3 man squads are bad when compared to plasma bikers.
RW bikes - B+ - good all around unit, brings a lot of shooting on a fast platform, bolters + plasma makes them dangerous to many different types of units.
Scout bikes - B+ - among the best units for anti-infantry, super fast, tons of shooting, can do mortal wounds when they fall back out of combat. Most people underestimate them, but I think that won't last. If they were RW they would be an A+ unit. Honestly if you want to take them doing it by allying in marines is the way to go. I've run them both as DA and White Scars and doing white scars lets you double up on Advance + shoot + charge stratagems to jump on your opponent.
Inceptors - A+ - with plasma they are the best target we have for WOTDA, expect them to die, but they will kill something on the drop (sometimes more than 1 thing.)
Heavy Support
Helblasters - A - effective with Azreal, but I honestly think they work better in other chapters to some extent, they want to be at half range to get the most of their shooting, and are not all that fast. They are great, but not my favorite in the codex.
How do you use your Scouts to "claim midfield objectives" ? It seems obvious that they are going to die extra-fast and so I don't see their use as objective cappers, at least in the 1st turn.
Aaranis wrote: How do you use your Scouts to "claim midfield objectives" ? It seems obvious that they are going to die extra-fast and so I don't see their use as objective cappers, at least in the 1st turn.
If your running RW or DW, the scouts should be the least of your opponents worries and they should be concentrating fire on the units that can actually kill them.
Hmm, not quite convinced by my experience, it doesn't take much to kill 5 Scouts. A dedicated unit who intend to claim the same objective should wipe them up, or just some anti-MEQ weapons from vehicles. Maybe I'm just playing wrong though
Automatically Appended Next Post: When list building, do you tend to focus on one Wing with support from the others, or do you try to have an even quantity of each Wing ? I tend to always build my lists to be TAC as possible but in this edition it just means I can't do anything well enough, I always suffer from not enough anti-tank, not enough fast units and such. Another problem for me is I tend to want to optimise each Wing to form a little Deathstar each time, like when I write a theoretical list, I wouldn't think to include Deathwing Knights without at least an Ancient and Belial/Chaplain for rerolls. Same for Ravenwing, I'd immediately pick Sammael for rerolls and the Darkshroud for -1 to Hit for full optimisation. Or Azrael for Hellblasters... So I end up with expensive little Deathstars with too little numbers and no real place in the list for secondary units like Troops, or a Dreadnought and such.
Should I pick a Wing and build around it ? It would be hard for me not to include at least a min squad of Knights, and impossible not to support them with an Ancient and someone to give them rerolls like Belial or a Librarian. But I'm interested in the Ravenwing stuff, especially an all-flying Ravenwing with Land Speeders, Talon Master and a Dark Talon.
Aaranis wrote: How do you use your Scouts to "claim midfield objectives" ? It seems obvious that they are going to die extra-fast and so I don't see their use as objective cappers, at least in the 1st turn.
If your running RW or DW, the scouts should be the least of your opponents worries and they should be concentrating fire on the units that can actually kill them.
Basically this I tend to push into my opponent and keep scouts out of LOS. Sure my opponent can try to send stuff to kill 5 scouts, but doing that either means they are not killing bikes or inceptors, or that the unit they sent to do it dies to those units. That said sure they can die but so do the rest of our troops most of which have issue getting to objectives in the midfield in the first place.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In my last tournament I never lost more than 1 of my scout squads in 3 games.
Automatically Appended Next Post: When list building, do you tend to focus on one Wing with support from the others, or do you try to have an even quantity of each Wing ? I tend to always build my lists to be TAC as possible but in this edition it just means I can't do anything well enough, I always suffer from not enough anti-tank, not enough fast units and such. Another problem for me is I tend to want to optimise each Wing to form a little Deathstar each time, like when I write a theoretical list, I wouldn't think to include Deathwing Knights without at least an Ancient and Belial/Chaplain for rerolls. Same for Ravenwing, I'd immediately pick Sammael for rerolls and the Darkshroud for -1 to Hit for full optimisation. Or Azrael for Hellblasters... So I end up with expensive little Deathstars with too little numbers and no real place in the list for secondary units like Troops, or a Dreadnought and such.
Should I pick a Wing and build around it ? It would be hard for me not to include at least a min squad of Knights, and impossible not to support them with an Ancient and someone to give them rerolls like Belial or a Librarian. But I'm interested in the Ravenwing stuff, especially an all-flying Ravenwing with Land Speeders, Talon Master and a Dark Talon.
Pick one and use the rest of the army to support it. If you try to do an even mix you dilute everything to the point of being ineffective IMO. I've gone heavily on Greenwing because they benefit the most from the Chapter Tactics, and bring 2-3 Ravenwing units to support them. The army ends up being 75% Greenwing and 25% Ravenwing. So far I'm mostly happy with it, but it still feels like it's missing something from a flavor standpoint.
I've written lists that were Green and Deathwing, but I prefer the speed of the boys in black. Trying to use all 3 at once led me to taking too many HQ's, not because I needed them for detachments, but because I wanted to buff all my assorted strike groups. Too top heavy, not enough boots and tracks on the ground for my liking.
When list building, do you tend to focus on one Wing with support from the others, or do you try to have an even quantity of each Wing ? I tend to always build my lists to be TAC as possible but in this edition it just means I can't do anything well enough, I always suffer from not enough anti-tank, not enough fast units and such. Another problem for me is I tend to want to optimise each Wing to form a little Deathstar each time, like when I write a theoretical list, I wouldn't think to include Deathwing Knights without at least an Ancient and Belial/Chaplain for rerolls. Same for Ravenwing, I'd immediately pick Sammael for rerolls and the Darkshroud for -1 to Hit for full optimisation. Or Azrael for Hellblasters... So I end up with expensive little Deathstars with too little numbers and no real place in the list for secondary units like Troops, or a Dreadnought and such.
Should I pick a Wing and build around it ? It would be hard for me not to include at least a min squad of Knights, and impossible not to support them with an Ancient and someone to give them rerolls like Belial or a Librarian. But I'm interested in the Ravenwing stuff, especially an all-flying Ravenwing with Land Speeders, Talon Master and a Dark Talon.
I can't speak to all those questions as I pretty much play pure Deathwing with 3 ravenwing flyers for support, but surprisingly it's very effective. Placed 3rd in an 11 man GT the other weekend with it.
So what I can speak to is DW Knights. Belial isn't necessary if you just want to run a squad of Knights perse, yeah his re-rolls are good and he's a beast against enemy characters, but half of his re-roll ability is wasted on Knights since they don't shoot, so you could easily go with other characters that can do the same thing but are a touch cheaper. As you said, a libby with righteous repugnance and aversion is sick. Interrogator Chaplain gives them the CC re-rolls they need, or the ancient with TH/SS for the extra attacks and a nice CC character. I bring 1 squad in every DW list of mine and DS them in, but with charging off DS being such a little chance, they really need a delivery system. I've tried making the character that follows them around the WL and making him master of maneuver but even still, that's only a 50/50 chance to make that charge. Storm raven or crusader are the best rides but that's a large point sink.
Thanks for the insight everyone. Currently I play a Deathwing Detachment in my Mechanicus lists as I don't have enough models to build a proper 2000 pts army. I think I'll go with 2x5 Intercessors and 1 Scout squad for troops, so as to have always a tougher option depending on the terrain configuration. I'll also focus on almost mono-build lists in the future. As you said, the problem for the Knights is their delivery system, you either DS them unreliably or you end up with a transport as expensive as the Knights. I tried yesterday playing with an Ancient as my Warlord with the Master of Maneuver trait but I totally failed as I charged him first, so the rest of the squad was too far away to benefit from the Trait
I think I'll always include at least two Bike squads in every pure DA list, maybe except on Ravenwing-heavy lists, so as to have always a fast unit to contest in the last minute.
On a completely other subject, Inceptors, anyone tried them with the Bolters ? I'm torn as to which build use for them, the Bolters are fantastic anti-horde weapons and can force saves on anything, but I feel I already have enough anti-horde weapons with my Kastelan Robots so Plasma to deal with Leman Russes and the likes looks tempting.
I've used them both ways and both are good. It just depends on the role you want them to fill.
When I build a list I don't focus on any one wing. I focus on a concept for my list and having a purpose for every unit. So when adding a unit I ask myself what does my army need? where is it lacking? how am I going to use this unit in game?
Since our new Codex dropped, I've tried a few list, but right now I'm focusing on a viable Greenwing (without Primaris: since don't have them, and I have too many other stuff to paint before I can even consider them).
Right now, I think a gunline for DA is a quite viable army. But, it lacks a little punch and especially a resilient model, when I face Daemon Princes, Khorne Berserker and those brutal assault unit (I have several Imperial Knights, but I'd like to change a little my usual army composition).
What do you think about the Chaplain Dreadnought as "the" a solution? I found out it's quite useful (even if he suffer very much against tarpits) and ridiculously resilient vs almost any kind of attach when used with DA as Warlord (thanks to Trait).
My last test was with:
- A Dreadnought Chaplain (a Venerable Dread with 5++... and remember that any venerable Dread has a 6+++), with 2 Dreadnought H2H Weapons (reroll "1" to hit in combat, as in his Datasheet) and double heavy flamer (a waste of his BS2+, but whatever). I made him Warlord (with the trait for a 6+++, a 5+++ in he not move) and Shroud of Heros (-1 to be hit). It's a 204 pt. total setup.
Then, I embarked him on Dreadnought Drop Pod (80 points).
My initial idea was to keep him until late game (2° or even 3° turn), deploy the pod, charge and use the pod itself as an achor to avoid shooting (the Chaplain is a Character with 9 wounds). I can use 2CP to have a charge reroll, if I pick up the right character (using the Stratagem to give +1Attack to an enemy Character, and reroll charge against him with Deathwing) and them making him Deathwing. Otherwise, if I can drop the Warlord Trait I can give him a in-build charge reroll. Or, also, I can give him the Eye of Unseen to try fish out characters to their doom.
The thing is an absolute monster, at least as resilience (And it's also a Character!).
5++/6+++/6+++ (Index Stat with standard Warlord Trait) was already nasty, but 5++/6+++/5+++ is somehow ridiculous.
He only takes around 0,3 wound for damage, and has the same absorption ratio even against Smite Spam (thanks to the Strategem to give a Vehicle a 5+++ against MW... he has a either 6+++/5+++/5+++ or 6+++/6+++/5+++... vs MW!!!! He can take something around 8 Smite in a single phase before to die).
Also vs CC unit is tough. Suppose that Mortarion Charge him - that's an approximation, of course, without psychic phase and such... but I think Mortarion is one of the biggest CC guys out there. I believe it shows how stupidly durable the DA Dread Warlord Chaplain is.
On average, with either his 6 or 18 attacks (and note that I DO NOT USE the Shroud here...that make the Chap even more durable thanks to -1 to be hit).
Eviscerating Blow | 6 attack | 5 hits | 4.2 wounds | 2.77 wounds after 5++ | 9.7 damage (D6) | 8.15 damage after 6+++ (already not enough to kill him) | 5.38 after 5+++. On average, a slightly less than half his wound. And the Chap doesn't degrade. Also (even more important), since the +++ are applied AFTER D6 damage, if the opponent roll very high, you have an high number of dice to roll... so you can statistically absorb more damage. A single ++ leaves you vulnerable to reroll on Damage. A +++ much less.
Reaping Scyte |18 attack | 15 hits | 10 damage | 6.66 after 5+/5++ | 5.59 dmg after 6+++ | 3.69 after 5+++. As above.
Also, a simple Machinator for quick repair keep him alive even longer..
[b]Alternate Loadout[b]
Since I believe it's already enough durable to stop for a turn or two anything in the game (I think)... what if, instead of the two close combat weapons and double heavy flamer I leave the drop pod at home (-80pt), make him footslogging (since he's Warlord, trouble will come his way in any case) and save -34pt. for the double heavy flamer?
With the 114 pt saved I can take a Twin Laser Cannon and a Storm Bolter (52 pt.) and save EXACTLY enough point for a Liutenant or a Machinator.
What do you think of this as a setup? Less aggressive, more supportive of the gunline. Eventually, I can also juggle around the Warlord Trait losing in durability but adding something else up (aura of +1 S for example, meaning +2 S for unit in H2H with him... Basic Maring wounding Aggressor on 3+ ^^).
Other good ideas to exploit him in a DA army? Also with Ravenwing or Deathwing, eventually (I have enought models to play anything ^^).
It's limited wargear is the only drawbacks I see (he can pick between assault cannon, melta or twin laser cannon... if I recall correctly).
P.S: it started as a request for optimal wargear, but became more a unit analysis Sorry
I'm building a RW BK force to accompany Sammael and a Talonmaster. My plan is to add 7 BK (that's the models available) and I'm wondering if I should include an apothecary and/or an Ancient in this crew. I'm not planning to play competitively but i'd like to run a solid list.
I'm building a RW BK force to accompany Sammael and a Talonmaster. My plan is to add 7 BK (that's the models available) and I'm wondering if I should include an apothecary and/or an Ancient in this crew. I'm not planning to play competitively but i'd like to run a solid list.
Thanks !
I don't think so. Maybe an Ancient. Build that model as another Black Knight. Spend saved points on Scouts, they help create space for bikes.
Aaranis wrote: I tried yesterday playing with an Ancient as my Warlord with the Master of Maneuver trait but I totally failed as I charged him first, so the rest of the squad was too far away to benefit from the Trait .
This should never happen unless you messed up. Even with your ancient failing the charge, you can get all 5 Knights into CC and still get his buff. Put the first 3 or 4 Knights 1" away from enemy, then leave 1 or 2 as a second row 1" behind them and don't pile in. Terminator bases are 1.5", you only have to be within 1" of an enemy to be considered in CC with them, and you are under no obligation to pile in more. Models only have to be within 1" of another model that's in CC to be able to use their attacks. so to recap, you've got your first row 1" away from enemy, +1.5" base size +1" in between your front row of terms and the back row +1.5" for their bases gives you 5" inches back, that means your only 4" away from your Ancient and still getting all your attacks and his buff.
It's the same thing you do with larger squads of smaller models. You leave a tail back to your buff character, only with terminators being on such big bases, you can get them all into CC and get the buff without losing any attacks, at least with 5 man squads.
Aaranis wrote: I tried yesterday playing with an Ancient as my Warlord with the Master of Maneuver trait but I totally failed as I charged him first, so the rest of the squad was too far away to benefit from the Trait .
This should never happen unless you messed up. Even with your ancient failing the charge, you can get all 5 Knights into CC and still get his buff. Put the first 3 or 4 Knights 1" away from enemy, then leave 1 or 2 as a second row 1" behind them and don't pile in. Terminator bases are 1.5", you only have to be within 1" of an enemy to be considered in CC with them, and you are under no obligation to pile in more. Models only have to be within 1" of another model that's in CC to be able to use their attacks. so to recap, you've got your first row 1" away from enemy, +1.5" base size +1" in between your front row of terms and the back row +1.5" for their bases gives you 5" inches back, that means your only 4" away from your Ancient and still getting all your attacks and his buff.
It's the same thing you do with larger squads of smaller models. You leave a tail back to your buff character, only with terminators being on such big bases, you can get them all into CC and get the buff without losing any attacks, at least with 5 man squads.
Oh I messed up alright, I know that, first time I ran that comp on didn't think my move through.
Anyway, since then I have PTSD from invincible Leman Russes and so I made some maths to find out what was the most efficient between some AdMech and Dark Angels units I'd play with my playstyle. I'll pass you the details about AdMech but here's some results with what I'd use against Leman Russes (or Repulsors, both T8 3+). Disclaimer, I don't believe them to be the most objective choices in the whole codex, just what I'd use in my lists with my own playstyle and preferences:
Spoiler:
Please note that I didn't take in account the points and attacks from eventual support Characters for simplicity.
10 Hellblasters with Heavy Incinerators, rerolling 1s to Hit: 4,00 D; 87,50 pts/W
- Rerolling 1s to Hit, Overcharge: 10,67 D; 32,80 pts/W
- Rerolling 1s to Hit, Overcharge, +1D: 16,00 D; 21,88 pts/W
- Rerolling Hits, Overcharge, +1D: 17,78 D; 19,69 pts/W
3 Inceptors with Plasma: 2,22 D; 79,73 pts/W (I didn't count rerolls because they'll be out of reach of support most of the time)
- Overcharge: 6,67 D; 26,54 pts/W
- Overcharge, +1D: 10,00 D; 17,70 pts/W
As you can see, the most efficient unit to destroy these targets are in order and without any rerolls or Stratagems; 1 Predator with 4 Lascannons, 5 Deathwing Knights, 10 Hellblasters with Incinerators (in rapid fire range !), 10 Hellblasters with Heavy Incinerators, and then 3 Inceptors with Plasma.
We can note that the Heavy Incinerators lose against the regular Incinerators in every case, but only as long as you are in rapid fire range. If you don't want to move Azrael and your Hellblasters around pick the Heavy guns. Start using the rerolls and the Overcharge, and you have the Incinerators as best weapons, even more so with +1D from the Stratagem. Inceptors are good too, but you won't destroy a Leman Russ in a single volley with a min squad, and if you double the squad size you must double the results and while you can inflict 20 D you have less points efficiency than the Hellblasters.
The Knights, once supported by Asmodai and and Ancient are really strong, but lack Punch against these targets due to the lack of AP compared to the Hellblasters. The Predator is only better as long as the other choices aren't in optimal mode with rerolls, overcharges and such. I don't think it's a good option to include, especially since you can't protect them in Azrael's bubble.
TL;DR: Heavy Incinerators when not moving, Rapid-fire Incinerators when moving, Knights but only when supported with Ancient and Belial/Asmodai, Inceptors and then Predator with 4 Lascannons. Other options might be better depending on your own compositions and preferences, and the opponent you face. I didn't calculate the whole codex obviously :p
Your assumption about not having re-rolls for inceptors is a poor one. I have played them in 10+ games and never not had re-roll 1s to hit and wound. If you plan around it then it is super easy. Also WOTDA changes the math some, using it kills a leman Russ pretty easily with 3 inceptors with re-rolls.
I think it's a pretty decent assumption. They like to DS, they like to be mobile, jumping 10" a turn and spewing death, kind of like ravenwing. If you DS them in and don't DS them near an HQ that allows re-rolls your definitely not re-rolling that turn.
bobafett012 wrote: I think it's a pretty decent assumption. They like to DS, they like to be mobile, jumping 10" a turn and spewing death, kind of like ravenwing. If you DS them in and don't DS them near an HQ that allows re-rolls your definitely not re-rolling that turn.
bobafett012 wrote: I think it's a pretty decent assumption. They like to DS, they like to be mobile, jumping 10" a turn and spewing death, kind of like ravenwing. If you DS them in and don't DS them near an HQ that allows re-rolls your definitely not re-rolling that turn.
Which is why you deepstrike them near an HQ that gives re-rolls. Jump pack master, Belial, or Sammi, all work. I suppose it depends on your list but it is no more of a good assumption that they will have no re-rolls than that helblasters will have the,. Both involve deciding to purchase an additional model for that purpose (or that the helblasters not move into range). It is certainly a worse assumption the the assumption that 5 DW Knights make it into combat with a leman Russ with supporting characters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean if you include azzy with 10 Helblasters (rapid fire) it is 510 points. For those exact same points I get 6 inceptors with a JP master and JP lieutenant.
In rapid fire range according to the above you get ~27 damage.
The inceptors in my example average 25.83 for the same points. It is much harder to deliver those helblasters into range. When not in range it is not close.
Breng77 wrote:Your assumption about not having re-rolls for inceptors is a poor one. I have played them in 10+ games and never not had re-roll 1s to hit and wound. If you plan around it then it is super easy. Also WOTDA changes the math some, using it kills a leman Russ pretty easily with 3 inceptors with re-rolls.
I didn't include them with rerolls because I don't have any JP Characters, but I did thought about the rerolls from a JP Master, it's just I don't play them. WOTDA was counted, when I write "Overcharge, +1D" I mean I Overcharge and use the WOTDA stratagem.
Breng77 wrote:
bobafett012 wrote: I think it's a pretty decent assumption. They like to DS, they like to be mobile, jumping 10" a turn and spewing death, kind of like ravenwing. If you DS them in and don't DS them near an HQ that allows re-rolls your definitely not re-rolling that turn.
Which is why you deepstrike them near an HQ that gives re-rolls. Jump pack master, Belial, or Sammi, all work. I suppose it depends on your list but it is no more of a good assumption that they will have no re-rolls than that helblasters will have the,. Both involve deciding to purchase an additional model for that purpose (or that the helblasters not move into range). It is certainly a worse assumption the the assumption that 5 DW Knights make it into combat with a leman Russ with supporting characters.
I mean if you include azzy with 10 Helblasters (rapid fire) it is 510 points. For those exact same points I get 6 inceptors with a JP master and JP lieutenant.
In rapid fire range according to the above you get ~27 damage.
The inceptors in my example average 25.83 for the same points. It is much harder to deliver those helblasters into range. When not in range it is not close.
For some reason I had in mind the Exterminators had a 12" range. Anyway, I didn't totally dismiss Inceptors and I showed they can be really efficient, but we have to take into account others things than pure maths when making a choice, too. Sometimes you will play against a list with so much bodies you won't have room to DS near your target, and you have less Wounds in your Inceptors unit (but they're tougher). On the other hand, yes Hellblasters might be difficult to move into RF range, will footslog, and can be locked in CC while the Inceptors can fly away freely.
I still consider Heavy Incinerators for the sole reason they don't struggle with range that much, and have a good average damage output. you can castle them in a ruin with Azrael and spit out plasma constantly. RF Incinerators are more risky and needs more thought, but you gain the possibility to move your gunline and inflict much more damage when well-placed.
Another small point for Hellblasters compared to Inceptors is the extra AP, if your target is a Land Raider or if the Leman Russ gets +1 to its save it'll save less wounds against Hellblasters than Inceptors.
Just because you don't play something doesn't mean it does not exist. As for targeting 18" range makes it pretty easy to
Hit your target most of the time, though it is true not all of the time. But you could say the same thing about LOS and helblasters your static helblasters might not always have LOS to their target and if they must move they go down the tubes for efficiency. It really comes down to playstyle I suppose I just think it is disingenuous to assume the optimal conditions for one unit and not another when looking at efficiciency.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The AP does make a difference but it isn't a very large one most of the time.
I did the calculations for myself after all, just thought I'd translate and share my results with you, I didn't intend on running the calculations for every unit in every situation, hence no JP Master because I don't want to play a JP Master and Inceptors models are not too much to my taste so I'll just use a min squad (got one offered at Christmas), I was just wondering how to equip and use them based on numbers, not build my list around them.
Didn't think about LoS too much since it's almost impossible to have LoS blocking terrain with GW elements (I play only at my local GW store), and it's hard to hide a Leman Russ on our tables. I agree with you on this point however, Inceptors have mobility going on for them. If I include them with the plasma I'll probably use them to drop somewhere and finish off what the Hellblasters couldn't one-shot.
The issue is that you presented them not in context of your list or models you like but as what you believed to be our most sensible options against a leman Russ. I mean lascannon devs are pretty decent with re-rolls as well (15.7 points per wound to a russ). So if you are playing a gunline DA list with Azzy, then yes helblasters are great. If you find you don't move much then heavy incinerators are a good choice, though they leave you vulnerable to short range shooting and assault more than the rapid fire variety.
Breng77 wrote: The issue is that you presented them not in context of your list or models you like but as what you believed to be our most sensible options against a leman Russ. I mean lascannon devs are pretty decent with re-rolls as well (15.7 points per wound to a russ). So if you are playing a gunline DA list with Azzy, then yes helblasters are great. If you find you don't move much then heavy incinerators are a good choice, though they leave you vulnerable to short range shooting and assault more than the rapid fire variety.
You're right, I see what you mean. I edited my original post to say the results were subjective and will be better or worst depending on the army composition and the opponent you're facing. Thanks for your constructive criticism, I've known threads where I would've been almost insulted
I think people assume that getting their Inceptors in range is always going to be easy. I play Guard and I can tell you that if I went up against any SM player with Plasma Inceptors my Russ's will be at least 9 inches behind my line of guardsman or scout sentinels.
Have fun killing a 70ish point guard squad with that 400ish point combo of Master, Lieutenant, and Inceptors. Longer range units don't suffer from that limitation. I use Plasma Scions in my guard army and there are games when I am waiting until 2nd or 3rd turn to bring them in because I am playing an opponent that has a well structured army to rebuff deep strike. Honestly I feel that DS protection is a requirement given the current meta in 8th and while you may catch the occasional player not doing it, anyone that even remotely has their act together is screening with cheap units.
Well sure if you put your stuff further back, but again I assume you won't put them in LOS of my heavy weapons teams either. If I cannot hit you with them turn 1 I'll wait delete your chaff turn 1, then bring them down. It is easier said than done depending on deployment to have a Russ 9" behind your guardsman, as for sentinels I use scouts to push them back in pregame and clear a landing zone. If the guard player goes first it is much harder to deal with as they can push their screen up, but on that same not they can delete those static heavy weapon units. I see the deepstrike more as alpha strike defense than super offense. No a DA player with helblasters can dump a darkshroud and azzy to keep them survivable but they need to sit and take an alpha strike.
I like both inceptors and hellblasters, and sometimes use both.
Inceptors are inherently glass cannons. They WILL get focused and every dead inceptor greatly hurts. On the plus side, you can factor that in and use them as a distraction carnifex in addition to their alpha strike role. Just try to set them up so your opppnent has to work for it--such as moving to suboptimal positions or abandoning a fight elsewhere.
Best to take at least two good units that can use WOTDA so that your opponent doesn't have easy target priority. One of the best things a commander can do is force their opponent to make hard decisions. That increases the odds of making mistakes.
What type of terrain are you using that there is anything approaching a significant amount of LOS blockage on the board? Are you sitting literally bricks down or something?
I'm usually lucky (or my opponent sloppy) if I can hide the characters in my IG army to make sure snipers of some sort don't take them out. Having enough LOS blocking terrain to actually hide a fair portion of my army seems like a pipe dream.
I think Inceptors are good but in an environment where you don't know what army you are going to go up against they (and the support to make them very good) can find themselves quickly overcome with very little contribution to the game. My preference is to units that are capable of contributing in a more general fashion that can be tailored to the type of army you are fighting. But again that is my preference and I am by no means the end all as far as army building goes. As an IG player though I would *love* to see 500+ points tied up in close range plasma like the Inceptors because it's something I can deal with in a very predictable manner, even if you use scouts to keep my line right at my deployment edge, I'll decide what you get to shoot at, not the other way around.
WrentheFaceless wrote: So new to the DA game, felt like its time for a "real" marine army (my poor GK), and Ad Mech is getting a bit state
Current list I'm building working towards is the following, C&C would be appreciated, 2k list
DA Bat
Azrael
LT with power sword/plas pistol
Intercesor X 5, aux grenade launcher
Intercesor X 5, aux grenade launcher
Intercesor X 5, aux grenade launcher
Helblasters X10 (heavy plasma)
Outrider
Samael on Corvex
Talonmaster w/ heavenfall blade
Black knights x4
Black knights x4
Black knights x5
Darkshroud
My personal opinions:
You need scouts. At least 2 squads with bolters, CC or shotguns to act as a forward screen.
Try merging two of your BK squads into one super squad. Makes more efficient use of RW strategem or WOTDA. You'd still have enough FA for Outrider.
I don't think heavy incinerators are a good trade off vs normal. More points for +6" range and +1S but you loose out on one potential shot, plus -1 to hit if you move. Rapid fire hellblasters + Auspex Scan can neuter a poorly planned deep strike. YMMV though.
It's elite heavy, so you may have a tough time with horde lists. Hopefully the plasma is good enough antitank for mech lists.
I'd think about a RW apothecary in case Sammy has a poor melee round or runs afoul of psykers. Not a must take though.
Swillsswil wrote: I like both inceptors and hellblasters, and sometimes use both.
Inceptors are inherently glass cannons. They WILL get focused and every dead inceptor greatly hurts. On the plus side, you can factor that in and use them as a distraction carnifex in addition to their alpha strike role. Just try to set them up so your opppnent has to work for it--such as moving to suboptimal positions or abandoning a fight elsewhere.
Best to take at least two good units that can use WOTDA so that your opponent doesn't have easy target priority. One of the best things a commander can do is force their opponent to make hard decisions. That increases the odds of making mistakes.
Hmm scouts are cheap yes but attempting to go as primaris as I can with my list. But turning 2 of the knight squads into 1 is a good idea
The hellblaster decision is one ive been debating. How much will you really be in rapid fire range with the normal ones, vs +1 str/AP when overcharging.
That is part of the question, the other part is how often do you need them to move. I always lean toward mobility and more shots close up. Your opponent may come to you and then rapid fire is better. Especially because it is cheaper.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Hmm scouts are cheap yes but attempting to go as primaris as I can with my list. But turning 2 of the knight squads into 1 is a good idea
The hellblaster decision is one ive been debating. How much will you really be in rapid fire range with the normal ones, vs +1 str/AP when overcharging.
There are lots of armies that like to run toward you, it happens far more often than you'd think that you rapid fire.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Hmm scouts are cheap yes but attempting to go as primaris as I can with my list. But turning 2 of the knight squads into 1 is a good idea
The hellblaster decision is one ive been debating. How much will you really be in rapid fire range with the normal ones, vs +1 str/AP when overcharging.
I am running a ten-man Hellblaster Squad with the standard Plasma Incinerator. Azrael is with the squad to allow them to move and still get re-rolls on 1s when Supercharging. This lets them take the fight to the enemy while maintaining some standoff. This can catch the enemy off guard and gives the standard Hellblasters a battle space of 36". I have certainly used their Rapid Fire ability and its devastating.
The Plasma Incinerator can safely deal with T7 or less targets on the standard setting with Rapid Fire and Azrael plus Weapons of the Dark Age (and a Lt of course). I usually gamble and Supercharge anyway, but if the target has any sort of -1 to hit protection then Supercharging is not the best idea.
I'm aiming towards rapid-fire ones too, mostly because I'm tired of AdMech static gunlines. On the same note, it seems we're quite a lot of AdMech players turning to Dark Angels isn't it ?
What are you guys thoughts about Reivers ? I fail too see how they could be used, the only tactic I've heard about them is to give them Grapnel launchers, have them sneak up behind a enemy unit on a ruin and charge it, but that's it. So, Character hunters ? Sniper hunters ? The Shock grenade is nice but would be best used in synergy with another charging unit. Would be nice against something with a mean Overwatch. The range is really short however, I don't know if it allows easy placements to benefit from it.
if the heavy and assault blasters were cheaper they'd be worth considering. but somehow they're more expensive, so rapid fire is the clear choice. ditto the intercessors' options.
So I keep seeing post on aggressors and thought I'd leave my two cents
Are they slow?
A 5" move and poor access to transports would imply they are slow, but they can advance with literally no downside since their weapons are all assault and they have a rule to ignore the -1. This makes them pretty quick for infantry, with an average speed between 8 and 9 inches.
Are they undergunned?
Focusing on the auto bolt gun variety as opposed to the fire bat variety, per model they have a bit north of a hurricane bolter apiece, which is some pretty serious firepower. It's low strength and no ap, but with only 5s to wound and a very high volume of fire it can present a sizable amount of saves to anything with toughness less than 8, and shreds screens. That's before we get to the powerfists, which is the agressors answer to tougher/armored opponents.
Do they suck compared to terminators?
The cheapest a terminator squad gets for DA is 192 points for a 5 man squad, a 5 man squad of Aggressors 189 points. The aggressors will massively outgun the terminators, and be about the same effectiveness in close combat. The aggressors will be faster because they can advance with impunity, but the terminators can deep strike. Access to transportation is about even, as a repulsor and a land raider are pretty similar. Terminators are a bit tougher with a 2+/5++ save, but there are a few common weapon strengths where the aggressors are very close in toughness, str 4, str 5, and str 8. Overall I'd say aggressors are more useful than vanilla terminators as all rounder units, but after that it's hard to compare because the Aggressor occupy a niche that isn't serviced by other units.
Are they a one trick pony?
More like a two or three trick pony, certainly they can charge across the board (distraction carnifex style) and drown screens in a hail of shots, but that's only a single use for them. They can also function as good defensive fixtures, shooting twice on an auspex scan is a good discouragement for deep striking in charge range, and they make good counter chargers with their powerfists. With the hellbat configuration they are a good minefield, nobody wants to charge 12d6 auto hits so attackers will go around or take the time to shoot them to death before advancing.
On the scale given before I'd put them in the C+/B- range, not viable in every list, so situationally useful, but the situations where they are useful are fairly common.
What are you guys thoughts about Reivers ? I fail too see how they could be used, the only tactic I've heard about them is to give them Grapnel launchers, have them sneak up behind a enemy unit on a ruin and charge it, but that's it. So, Character hunters ? Sniper hunters ? The Shock grenade is nice but would be best used in synergy with another charging unit. Would be nice against something with a mean Overwatch. The range is really short however, I don't know if it allows easy placements to benefit from it.
I've used reivers in a couple games now. They have never been super stars but they are great for one key reason: cheap deep strike. Don't view them as a direct threat via killing models so much as a way to harass your opponent's back lines/home objectives. Use them similar to an assault squad.
A smart opponent will hold more back if they know you have a deep striker, which is often to your advantage since DA tends to be more shooty and less choppy.
In essence, you use them as a psychological weapon. Don't expext too much from them and they won't disappoint, but they are far from mandatory.
One other pro for reivers is that they are cheaper than intercessors using the assault bolter with the added bonus of a heavy pistol. I would never take assault intercessors over these guys.
So, I just played my first game ever with the new DA codex. My opponent ran a very unoptimized Chaos soup list with Black Legion, Renegades, and even a squad of Nurglings. My list was definitely stronger which makes me feel kind of bad about winning, although I still almost lost. It ultimately came down to Abaddon failing a 4 inch charge with my opponent being out of command points (he had just spent his last 2 on Tide of Traitors). I then smushed Abaddon with a Venerable Dreadnought in my half of the turn, and we called it shortly thereafter as that was his last chance of winning (he'd have pulped Azrael and the Devastator squad around him).
My takeaways from this game:
-Azrael is too good to just leave him in the backfield in most situations. He is a monster with that Sword of Secrets. I had him with a 10-man squad of Hellblasters, but I didn't really get a chance to move as my lines got charged by a big squad of Warp Talons. My plan was to slowly walk them up the board, supercharging the plasma every turn and maybe popping WotDA a couple of times.
-Inceptors are great for chaff clearing if they take the assault bolters. They shredded so many Cultists in my opponent's backfield and he never had enough return fire to do anything to them. I ran a 3-man squad. It could be worth including 2 6-man units (one with each weapon option), dropping the first one on the first turn to clear screen units, and the second after the screens are gone to kill stuff with plasma.
-It's not a no-brainer to take Scouts over Intercessors. Some of each is definitely good. I didn't run any Scouts today (I actually ran 2 Intercessor and 1 Tactical squad), but I plan to in future, especially once I get a few more of the models. I feel like even Tacticals have their niche (like plasma/combiplasmas out of a Rhino or Drop Pod).
-Our stratagems are actually solid. The fall back and shoot one (can't remember what it's called) came in handy and allowed my Hellblasters to shoot an oncoming unit of Possessed that would have wrecked my face. I never got to use WotDA, but I already know that one's good! -Predators are only worth it if they have a source of rerolls. Pretty much always take Dreads or especially Mortis Dreads instead as they can reroll 1's at least if they don't move.
Grimgold wrote:So I keep seeing post on aggressors and thought I'd leave my two cents
Are they slow?
A 5" move and poor access to transports would imply they are slow, but they can advance with literally no downside since their weapons are all assault and they have a rule to ignore the -1. This makes them pretty quick for infantry, with an average speed between 8 and 9 inches.
Are they undergunned?
Focusing on the auto bolt gun variety as opposed to the fire bat variety, per model they have a bit north of a hurricane bolter apiece, which is some pretty serious firepower. It's low strength and no ap, but with only 5s to wound and a very high volume of fire it can present a sizable amount of saves to anything with toughness less than 8, and shreds screens. That's before we get to the powerfists, which is the agressors answer to tougher/armored opponents.
Do they suck compared to terminators?
The cheapest a terminator squad gets for DA is 192 points for a 5 man squad, a 5 man squad of Aggressors 189 points. The aggressors will massively outgun the terminators, and be about the same effectiveness in close combat. The aggressors will be faster because they can advance with impunity, but the terminators can deep strike. Access to transportation is about even, as a repulsor and a land raider are pretty similar. Terminators are a bit tougher with a 2+/5++ save, but there are a few common weapon strengths where the aggressors are very close in toughness, str 4, str 5, and str 8. Overall I'd say aggressors are more useful than vanilla terminators as all rounder units, but after that it's hard to compare because the Aggressor occupy a niche that isn't serviced by other units.
Are they a one trick pony?
More like a two or three trick pony, certainly they can charge across the board (distraction carnifex style) and drown screens in a hail of shots, but that's only a single use for them. They can also function as good defensive fixtures, shooting twice on an auspex scan is a good discouragement for deep striking in charge range, and they make good counter chargers with their powerfists. With the hellbat configuration they are a good minefield, nobody wants to charge 12d6 auto hits so attackers will go around or take the time to shoot them to death before advancing.
On the scale given before I'd put them in the C+/B- range, not viable in every list, so situationally useful, but the situations where they are useful are fairly common.
That's a nice review, thanks for the insight, I didn't know how we were supposed to use them effectively.
What are you guys thoughts about Reivers ? I fail too see how they could be used, the only tactic I've heard about them is to give them Grapnel launchers, have them sneak up behind a enemy unit on a ruin and charge it, but that's it. So, Character hunters ? Sniper hunters ? The Shock grenade is nice but would be best used in synergy with another charging unit. Would be nice against something with a mean Overwatch. The range is really short however, I don't know if it allows easy placements to benefit from it.
I've used reivers in a couple games now. They have never been super stars but they are great for one key reason: cheap deep strike. Don't view them as a direct threat via killing models so much as a way to harass your opponent's back lines/home objectives. Use them similar to an assault squad.
A smart opponent will hold more back if they know you have a deep striker, which is often to your advantage since DA tends to be more shooty and less choppy.
In essence, you use them as a psychological weapon. Don't expext too much from them and they won't disappoint, but they are far from mandatory.
One other pro for reivers is that they are cheaper than intercessors using the assault bolter with the added bonus of a heavy pistol. I would never take assault intercessors over these guys.
Being a psychological weapon fits them I guess ! However Intercessors are cheaper, considering they pay their auto bolt rifle 1 pt they end up 19 pts/model and the Reivers are only cheaper at 18 pts if not taking a grav-chute/grapnel launcher. Or do you mean using them as regular troops, not deep-striking ? Then I agree, I considered that too, but didn't think much of it yet.
ZergSmasher wrote: So, I just played my first game ever with the new DA codex. My opponent ran a very unoptimized Chaos soup list with Black Legion, Renegades, and even a squad of Nurglings. My list was definitely stronger which makes me feel kind of bad about winning, although I still almost lost. It ultimately came down to Abaddon failing a 4 inch charge with my opponent being out of command points (he had just spent his last 2 on Tide of Traitors). I then smushed Abaddon with a Venerable Dreadnought in my half of the turn, and we called it shortly thereafter as that was his last chance of winning (he'd have pulped Azrael and the Devastator squad around him).
My takeaways from this game:
-Azrael is too good to just leave him in the backfield in most situations. He is a monster with that Sword of Secrets. I had him with a 10-man squad of Hellblasters, but I didn't really get a chance to move as my lines got charged by a big squad of Warp Talons. My plan was to slowly walk them up the board, supercharging the plasma every turn and maybe popping WotDA a couple of times.
-Inceptors are great for chaff clearing if they take the assault bolters. They shredded so many Cultists in my opponent's backfield and he never had enough return fire to do anything to them. I ran a 3-man squad. It could be worth including 2 6-man units (one with each weapon option), dropping the first one on the first turn to clear screen units, and the second after the screens are gone to kill stuff with plasma.
-It's not a no-brainer to take Scouts over Intercessors. Some of each is definitely good. I didn't run any Scouts today (I actually ran 2 Intercessor and 1 Tactical squad), but I plan to in future, especially once I get a few more of the models. I feel like even Tacticals have their niche (like plasma/combiplasmas out of a Rhino or Drop Pod).
-Our stratagems are actually solid. The fall back and shoot one (can't remember what it's called) came in handy and allowed my Hellblasters to shoot an oncoming unit of Possessed that would have wrecked my face. I never got to use WotDA, but I already know that one's good! -Predators are only worth it if they have a source of rerolls. Pretty much always take Dreads or especially Mortis Dreads instead as they can reroll 1's at least if they don't move.
I agree with Azrael. I use him with a small horde of Intercessors and Hellblasters, walking from the board towards the enemy. They are very durable agaisn't small arms fire because the +3 and 2W, and vs plasma and heavy weapons because the 4++. They are vulnerable vs MW tought.
Aggressors are great marching to the middle with Azreal and should be evaluated in that context. I don't think there's any other role they can do better than other units.
axisofentropy wrote: Aggressors are great marching to the middle with Azreal and should be evaluated in that context. I don't think there's any other role they can do better than other units.
Aggressors are something new for Dark Angels, the only unit to fill a similar role for space marines prior to 8th is Devastator Centurions, which we never really had. The thing they do better than any other unit is volume of fire per point invested, and that is useful because screening units are so prevalent in 8th ed. Units like deathwing knights live and die based on our ability to clear screens out of their way so they can get to HVTs. Aggressors are quite literally the most efficient unit we have for removing screens, and can earn their points back in a single volley shooting at guardsmen, which is remarkable considering how tough guardsmen are per point invested. I went over this in the durable armies thread (linked below), but the TL;DR is if the rest of your army was as good at killing their designated targets you could reliably table an opponent in 3 or less turns. Since they can earn their points back so easily, it's not a big deal if they get shot off of the board early.
Of course math aside there are a few things that make them a bit awkward to use. The first is how random advances are, no bell curve here so every outcome is just as likely and it's easy to get a bad roll and get them stuck in the open. Second is their short range, they will likely be the closest non-assault unit to your opponent, and thus attract a lot of firepower. They have a weird target profile that is more akin to a light vehicle than infantry, they fare well against small arms, but things like las cannons will give them trouble, and they are just expensive enough to make it worth a las predators time. So they fare better in ITC style events where there is more LoS blocking terrain, and in any case should probably avoid fire lanes, which is another complication to their use.
Planning to take this list on Wednesday to my groups game night. I have had luck with a smaller version of this against ultramarines last week and just upscaled to 2000.
Spoiler:
DA Battalion
Azreal
Lieutenant w/ storm bolter
Scout squad bolters
Tac squad plas/combi-plas Tac squad plas/combi-plas 3 aggressors
Company ancient
Dev squad 4 lascannoned
10 hellblasters
Not sure what I will be facing. But my plan is have azreal, aggressors, hellblasters, and tac squads move up and try to control midfield. Bikes hit flanks and clear chaff. Lascannons hellblasters and black knights hit the hard targets. I've got a good number of CPs and units to spend them on so I feel good using strategems liberally.
I'd use more scouts but I only have the 5 right now. Also not sure if it's worth the master for reroll 1s with the bikes. Any and all thoughts appreciated.
FirePainter wrote: Planning to take this list on Wednesday to my groups game night. I have had luck with a smaller version of this against ultramarines last week and just upscaled to 2000.
Spoiler:
DA Battalion
Azreal
Lieutenant w/ storm bolter
Scout squad bolters
Tac squad plas/combi-plas Tac squad plas/combi-plas 3 aggressors
Company ancient
Dev squad 4 lascannoned
10 hellblasters
Not sure what I will be facing. But my plan is have azreal, aggressors, hellblasters, and tac squads move up and try to control midfield. Bikes hit flanks and clear chaff. Lascannons hellblasters and black knights hit the hard targets. I've got a good number of CPs and units to spend them on so I feel good using strategems liberally.
I'd use more scouts but I only have the 5 right now. Also not sure if it's worth the master for reroll 1s with the bikes. Any and all thoughts appreciated.
Looks pretty solid. I was wondering about the scouts till I saw your explanation.
With the amount of plasma bikes the master is a decent pick. Probably will want to keep him with BKs & Talonmaster if they all split up.
Only thing I might do different is try to squeeze in a couple rhinos for the tac marines, since you said you want them midfield. Probably would need to reduce a couple bike squad sizes to find the points. They would give you great ablative wounds, are fast, and after you drop the squad you charge something with it. I've tied up land raiders and lemans so many times with a rhino its hillarious.
As is should still do well though, I just like to provide options whenever I see a list.
Your list and its battle plan is fairly similar to a couple I'm considering. My big question is whether to take a 2nd scout squad for additional denial. Let us know how that one works out for you in practice!
Here are mine:
Operation: Pandorax
Spoiler:
Battalion Master- Heavenfall Blade, MC boltgun
Lieutenant- Storm Bolter, Power Sword
6x Intercessors, aux grenade
6x Intercessors, aux grenade
5x scouts, 4 sniper, 1 ML
4x Ravenwing Bikes- power sword on sarge, 3x chainsword
3x Ravenwing LS- AC, HB
9x Devastators- 4x Plasma Cannon, Cherub
Vanguard Chaplain on Bike
Ravenwing Talonmaster- Shroud of Night (I'm paying the CP for an extra relic)
Apothecary
Company Champ
Primaris Ancient
Vanguard Inquisitor- Force Sword, Dominate
Acolyte
Callidus
Culexus
GK Terminators
5x Nemesis Halberds, Hammerhand
Ravenwing stands ready to charge off and assault anything it can, GK is ready for deep strike and shooting, Culexus moves behind the Scouts first, then wherever is needed, the rest is a somewhat mobile firebase ready to unleash hell where needed with strong counter assault elements.
Hunting the Fallen
Spoiler:
Battalion Azrael
Primaris LT- power sword
5x Intercessor, aux grenade
5x Scouts, 4x sniper, 1 ML 9x Tac, Plas/Plas, Sgt Plas pistol
Main thing I'm concerned about is psychic defense (of which this list has absolutely none) but with the beta rules for Smite I'm not as worried. Is this at least a workable concept for a list, or should I go back to the drawing board?
Main thing I'm concerned about is psychic defense (of which this list has absolutely none) but with the beta rules for Smite I'm not as worried. Is this at least a workable concept for a list, or should I go back to the drawing board?
I've used many lists without active psyker defense. It's not a show stopper as long as you have ablative wounds to soak smites (scouts, rhinos, etc). If you use beta smite rules it will be even less of an issue. Your inceptors will need to be wary of psykers though!
I'm interested in the double inceptors and hearing how that goes. That's a lot of points for not many models. Not saying don't do it, just an observation.
Lastly, you may want to use your relic to give your master the shroud. With the melee kit you've given him he would be very hard to kill with the -1 to hit. Unless you plan on getting that Lt into melee (which will take time foot slogging) the heavenfall blade may not have much impact.
Noob question, as I haven't played DA yet. Is an Apothecary worthwhile to put with Hellblasters and a Master? Since the Hellblasters have 2W each, they would benifit from the healing, and having models come back from the dead would really irritate your opponent.
Shrapnelbait wrote: Noob question, as I haven't played DA yet. Is an Apothecary worthwhile to put with Hellblasters and a Master? Since the Hellblasters have 2W each, they would benifit from the healing, and having models come back from the dead would really irritate your opponent.
Not a bad idea, personally I like apothecary and ancient, 50/50 chance to shoot when killed, and then a 50/50 chance to get back up and shoot again, and then thank your opponent for an extra shot. Master doesn't do as much for dark angels as they do for other chapters because of grim resolve, so I generally have been doing librarian and lieutenants.
For me it depends on how many helblasters. If you are using a full squad of 10 it is probably worth it. For a smaller squad I'd rather add more models to the squad. It is probably worth it though since bringing back 1 helblasters basically pays for the apothecary.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unless points are an issue I'd go azreal over a master, re-roll and 4++ save make the squad much better.
Shrapnelbait wrote: Noob question, as I haven't played DA yet. Is an Apothecary worthwhile to put with Hellblasters and a Master? Since the Hellblasters have 2W each, they would benifit from the healing, and having models come back from the dead would really irritate your opponent.
Apothecaries are not clear cut on whether to take or not. Keep in mind that you will only have around 4-6 chances to bring back a dead model in most games. With a 50/50 chance that's 2-3 models over the game. They need to be pricy models to be worth it.
Also keep in mind that pricy models usually have more than one wound and you HAVE to heal before you can res a model in a unit. That might bring down your opportunities further.
Having said all that, I actually like apothecaries not for ressing, but to keep Azrael and Sammy alive. In a couple games they have been clutch in avoiding character death and therefore were very worth the points.
How do we use regular Ravenwing Bikes ? To tarpit ? To claim objectives ? To shoot at stuff ? I now have 9 thanks to 3 DV boxes and was wondering how to include them in my AdMech/DA army.
Aaranis wrote: How do we use regular Ravenwing Bikes ? To tarpit ? To claim objectives ? To shoot at stuff ? I now have 9 thanks to 3 DV boxes and was wondering how to include them in my AdMech/DA army.
create space for other units like black knights, Deathwing, and primaris dudes. Like scouts but more mobile (you should have scouts too)
I was thinking about primaris DA. Hellblasters are solid and DA makes them even better. Has anyone tried or thought of building a list around them?
I was thinking 2x10 Hellblasters in a phalanx with Azrael (modeled as Primaris), An Ancient with the relic banner, a Darkshroud, and maybe even an Apothecary.
Obviously this is a ton of points, but as a core you have a solid block of Primaris Marines with a 4++ and -1 to hit, if they do die they have a chance to shoot again (and almost certainly hit) and they can be brought back or healed. It's also just a hefty chunk of wounds. With the plasma stratagem and Azrael they should delete anything they look at, and are hard to tarpit with the fall back and shoot stratagem. .
I don't know about being ultra-competitive but it seems like it would do well with other supporting elements. Now, I don't have the DA dex so if the wording on some of the auras is models rather than units it may be a waste. But does this seem like a solid idea, thoughts?
Colgado wrote: I was thinking about primaris DA. Hellblasters are solid and DA makes them even better. Has anyone tried or thought of building a list around them?
I was thinking 2x10 Hellblasters in a phalanx with Azrael (modeled as Primaris), An Ancient with the relic banner, a Darkshroud, and maybe even an Apothecary.
Obviously this is a ton of points, but as a core you have a solid block of Primaris Marines with a 4++ and -1 to hit, if they do die they have a chance to shoot again (and almost certainly hit) and they can be brought back or healed. It's also just a hefty chunk of wounds. With the plasma stratagem and Azrael they should delete anything they look at, and are hard to tarpit with the fall back and shoot stratagem. .
I don't know about being ultra-competitive but it seems like it would do well with other supporting elements. Now, I don't have the DA dex so if the wording on some of the auras is models rather than units it may be a waste. But does this seem like a solid idea, thoughts?
I have been using the 10 man Hellblaster with Azrael, Apoth and Ancient and will likely add a second squad. It works!
I have been using the 10 man Hellblaster with Azrael, Apoth and Ancient and will likely add a second squad. It works!
Great to hear! Does the Darkshroud work with them as well? What would you support this "Core" with (bonus points for using other Primaris)?
The darkshroud goes with everything! I almost always take one. It's hard not to get value out of it. Plus it draws fire away from your stuff that has actual firepower because your opponent will rage over it.
Stack it with flyers or aversion for sweet -2 to hit goodness.
I have been using the 10 man Hellblaster with Azrael, Apoth and Ancient and will likely add a second squad. It works!
Great to hear! Does the Darkshroud work with them as well? What would you support this "Core" with (bonus points for using other Primaris)?
You'll need a way to delete hordes since the Hellblasters want to shoot bigger tougher things. Inceptors with Assault Bolters or even Intercessors would work and keep the Primaris theme going. Aggressors jumping out of a Repulsor would also work. I have yet to try a Repulsor, but in the last tournament I played in a guy ran an all-Primaris army (not Dark Angels, but still) and absolutely wrecked face with 2 Repulsors and a bunch of Inceptors and Hellblasters.
Looks pretty solid. I was wondering about the scouts till I saw your explanation.
With the amount of plasma bikes the master is a decent pick. Probably will want to keep him with BKs & Talonmaster if they all split up.
Only thing I might do different is try to squeeze in a couple rhinos for the tac marines, since you said you want them midfield. Probably would need to reduce a couple bike squad sizes to find the points. They would give you great ablative wounds, are fast, and after you drop the squad you charge something with it. I've tied up land raiders and lemans so many times with a rhino its hillarious.
As is should still do well though, I just like to provide options whenever I see a list.
So I ended up fighting custodes and the dice were not with me tonight. He had 3 squads of custodes 2 landraiders a contemptor a squad of sisters of silence all with flamers and 2 inquisitors.
I blame the dice but I feel that I played to aggressive vs his units. I moved up turn 1 to try and nuke down the squad not in a land raiders. Failed miserably only doing 1 wound. He then was able to charge with his contemptor and 1 squad murdering my aggressors and black knights. After that it was a slow grind to defeat. By turn 3 I was so far behind on points I had no chance to come back.
Ended the game killing 10 of the 15 custodes the sisters and 1 land raiders. I think I needed to wait for him to commit moving forward more before trying to go for the kill. Anyway good learning game. Don't think I'll change anything til I get to fight something less elite
Breng77 wrote:I use mine to shoot stuff 4 shots per bike + 3 special weapons is considerable output.
So, shooty option I take it. I only have plasma guns as special weapons. Do you run min squads or bigger ?
axisofentropy wrote:
Aaranis wrote: How do we use regular Ravenwing Bikes ? To tarpit ? To claim objectives ? To shoot at stuff ? I now have 9 thanks to 3 DV boxes and was wondering how to include them in my AdMech/DA army.
create space for other units like black knights, Deathwing, and primaris dudes. Like scouts but more mobile (you should have scouts too)
Don't have Scouts yet, but now I have 40 TAC Marines as Troops thanks to DV boxes I've been gifted. I think I'll use the bikes as escorts to my Dragoons, they have the speed necessary to stop stuff from going in their path and can eat Overwatch instead of my Dragoons.
Depends, I have been taking a squad of 5 with 2 plasma, combo-plasma and chainswords. Min squads also work but I am only running a single squad and lack the points for more special weapons. If I were going pure RW I think I'd run min squads with specials and combis as that is where the most power comes from. Being able to shoot bolters + other guns.
I would add the following considerations for RW bikes:
Min squads maximize special weapon density, but that is a doible edged sword. Every biker you loose is a dead special weapon. Same issue as min dev squads, but worse since your bikes will probably be closer to more enemy weapons.
If you want to add ablative wounds consider an atk bike w HB. Same wounds as 2 bikes for cheaper, and you trade out 1 TWB for a HB, which has pros and cons.
You can trade out a bikers pistol for a chainsword. Always do this. Try to keep them out of CC though as they are really bad at it against anything skilled plus you probably won't get to shoot your good guns.
Meltas and flamers are good picks because they are assault which means you can jink and shoot just like BKs. Plus their speed brings you into range quickly. Flamers may risk you getting tied up in CC, but at least your overwatch will be good. I prefer to leave plasma to BKs and hellblasters as they do it better.
As I said it depends on how many squads you are taking. If you are taking 2 squads with HB attack bikes it is almost worth just taking a 3rd mi. Squad with specials instead of the attack bike. While true every loss is a special weapon those squads dies quickly anyway.
What do you guys think about equiping ravenwing bikes with flamers and chainswords for anti horde work?
They seems to me as very point efficient squads, each biker will have 4 bolter shots in rapidfire range and d6 shots from the flamer
Cheaper then agressors, highly mobile and the 4 invuln save if they advance as well as an ability to charge after advancing to tie something up in CC for just one CP.
Timur wrote: agressors put out 18 bolter shots at 18' range
ravenwing bikes have 12 shots in rapid fire, and 3d6 from flamer at 8' range
Seems to me that bikes are more shooty if they get in flamer range which shouldn't be a problem with the 14' move and 6' advance
Aggressors put out 18 + 3D6 shots at 18", bikes have 14 shots (2 at -1 to hit) and 3D6 flamed hits.
So aggressors average 28.5 shots which averages 19 hits, bikes in flamed range average 19.5 hits. So they have a slight edge if they are 10"
Closer. Aggressors benefit more from re-rolls though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That said I don't love aggressors in DA because we lack ways to get them into the fight.
Here's a question: Is the Company Champion 44 points or 40? I think he's 44 because as far as I can tell you need to pay 4 points for the combat shield, but Battlescribe seems to think he's only 40 points.
Timur wrote: agressors put out 18 bolter shots at 18' range
ravenwing bikes have 12 shots in rapid fire, and 3d6 from flamer at 8' range
Seems to me that bikes are more shooty if they get in flamer range which shouldn't be a problem with the 14' move and 6' advance
Aggressors put out 18 + 3D6 shots at 18", bikes have 14 shots (2 at -1 to hit) and 3D6 flamed hits.
So aggressors average 28.5 shots which averages 19 hits, bikes in flamed range average 19.5 hits. So they have a slight edge if they are 10"
Closer. Aggressors benefit more from re-rolls though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That said I don't love aggressors in DA because we lack ways to get them into the fight.
That's not even counting the double shots from standing still, which is an aggressor special rule, which dovetails nicely into grim resolve. Your opponent can't let aggressors get into range and stay there, otherwise he is going to get 57 shots (rerolling ones) which ends up being 44 hits. Also being armed with powerfists is an advantage for aggressors, which allows them to punch heavy vehicles to death, something flamer equipped bikes won't be able to do. There is just no comparison between the fire power aggressors bring and the fire power ravenwing bikes bring.
To be honest though it's not really a fair comparison the two units have very different roles, Ravenwing bikes are fast, have Jink which makes them hard to kill, and stratagems that allow them to extend their reach and be more deadly. They are a scalpel, used to eliminate specific units that are hard to reach/hidden. Aggressors are blunt instruments that force your opponent react, and given a chance they can dust a thirty man IG screen in a single volley, unless your opponent is willing to blow CP to save less than 10 dudes.
Edit
As for how to use them, that's the rub, they are a high risk high reward unit. If you are fighting something like Tyranids or Orks, armies that close into to fight in CC, the plays write themselves. Put them behind the screen, have the screens fall back from melle, double shoot, profit. Using them against gunlines is more difficult, most people will advance them the first turn, after which they can still shoot at full BS, and then take a chunk out of a screen. If they are still alive after that, hold fast, and let them double shoot. After they are out of targets, and if by some miracle they are still kicking, run up and punch things. There are other things like using a repulsor to deliver and block LoS for them, or using them in firebat config as a minefield to discourage incoming charges (42 autohits in overwatch tends be an effective deterrent).
I agree with that statement. I'm considering using aggressors in concert with hellblasters and Azrael as my midfield meatgrinder. It bothers me that you'll likely have a dead turn from such an expensive unit, but 6 aggressors provide impressive horde control and some much-needed protection for the hellblasters.
IandI wrote: Here's a question: Is the Company Champion 44 points or 40? I think he's 44 because as far as I can tell you need to pay 4 points for the combat shield, but Battlescribe seems to think he's only 40 points.
As far as I can tell you pay 44 points and that is what I do. Its 40 points for the Company Champion base and then 4 points for the Combat Shield. The Blade of Caliban is free as is the bolt pistol, but the Combat Shield has a cost.
Yeah if you're playing in a tournament where there is even a remote chance of a CC army and you already have Azreal I think it's a no brainer to at least bring a minimum squad if you can at all find the points. Aggressors that can stand still and have Azreals 4+ are just straight up broken they're so good.
If you deploy the Hell Blasters at the edge of your deployment area and they move up you'll likely have something to fire at since even gun line armies like Guard *have* to deploy deep strike screens now if they don't want to be 1st turn charged. Sentinels or normal IG squads. It's not great but it's something and you do have to clear that stuff eventually so it likely won't be an entirely dead turn.
Took an explorational list to the FLGS warming up for the club championships with Hellblasters and Deathwing Knights in a Stormraven:
Azrael
Primaris Lieutenant
Librarian in Terminator Armour
Apothecary
4 x Scout Squads (mix of weapons)
Full Hellblaster Squad with Plasma Incinerators
Deathwing Knights
Devastators (2 x Lascannon, 2 x Misslie Launcher)
(Edit - bad copy paste - extra squad removed)
Stormraven
Nephilim
The first game was against a Steel Legion Astra Militarium Brigade with a Shadowsword, Chimeras and Myverns. I got the first turn and destroyed the Shadowsword with massed Supercharged/WOTDA Plasma and the Stormraven's multi-meltas. The Hellblasters also wiped a deep-striking Plasma-Scion squad with an Auspex Scan in the bottom of the first turn. By the end of second turn the Deathwing Knights were smashing their way through the Wyverns (while splatting a Primaris Psyker and a Master or Ordnance) after the Hellblasters cracked open two Chimeras to allow the Flyers to mow down the troops that piled out. A rough game for my opponent. Going first was huge, and so were the Hellblasters (who lost four to Supercharging along the way).
The second game was against Biel-Tan Eldar with Wave Serpeants, Banshees, Fire Dragons, Dire Avengers, an Avatar and those Wraith-Dreads in Big Guns Never Tire. This was a rougher game with him going first, and I was down the Devastators and two Scout squads by the end of his first turn. There was plenty of LOS blocking terrain in the centre of the board which made the game quite tactical, and my Hellblasters were frustrated by those shields on the Wave Serpeants that reduce damage by 1. The Deathwing Knights and Librarian opted to Deep Strike in the enemy's backfield instead of riding in the Stormraven and failed their 1st turn Charge Rolls.
In the second turn his Banshees piled out of a Serpeant and charged my Hellblasters (learned me some Eldar rulz). I had been lazy with Azrael and the Lt's placement and they could only offer encouragment instead of Heroic Intervening. Still, the Hellblasters lost only one of their number and then proceded to punch all but one of the Banshees to death (Azrael's and the Lt's advice was helpful at least). They then fell back from combat, used a Strategem and vaporized both Eldar Wraith-Dreads with Rapid-Fired/Supercharged WOTDA goodness. Azrael and the Lt plasma'd the last Banshee for good measure. In turn 3 the Avatar charged and was slain by Azrael after two rounds. The Deathwing Knights, though, were worn down by shooting and Psychic attacks as the Librarian and Watchers could only do so much. The store was closing, and I conceded the game. I had neglected to place the Devastators in Azrael's bubble at deployment and this was a critical error.
Observations - Still loving the Hellblasters. The Flyers were fun but fragile. Will likely swap them for more Hellblasters. The DW Knights were overkill in both games and vulnerable at the same time in Game 2. I will ponder these matches...
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Took an explorational list to the FLGS warming up for the club championships with Hellblasters and Deathwing Knights in a Stormraven:
Azrael
Primaris Lieutenant
Librarian in Terminator Armour
Apothecary
4 x Scout Squads (mix of weapons)
Full Hellblaster Squad with Plasma Incinerators
Deathwing Knights
Devastators (2 x Lascannon, 2 x Misslie Launcher)
Deathwing Knights
Stormraven
Nephilim
Wow it seems the Hellblasters were always doing their jobs, I'll be sure to include a full squad as soon as I can ! Was the Apothecary supporting them as well or was he more in the heat ?
So, not convinced by two squads of Knights ? I agree they seem too pricy to include two squads, maybe a single squad of 6-7 Knights instead ? Transport is always the problem, the Crusader is too expensive for what it does, but the Stormraven looks like the good solution. But why does it have to be so ugly ?
Sorry, I only had one squad of DW Knights - bad copy/paste in my list! Using the squad at the tourney will be my biggest single decision for the list build. They attract attention, but they take a big chunk of points.
The Apothcary was there to heal the Hellblasters and Azrael if necessary. He brought one Hellblaster and one Scout to life over two games and healed one Hellblaster that had taken a wound. Not great but not bad either.
Thoughts on Masters and Leuts with Hammers or Power fists ?
right now I run them with powerswords
I am running a tallonmaster with the relic blade but I am considering adding a Powerfist to my Jumpack Leutenant and a ThunderHammer to my jumpack Master.
zedsdead wrote: Thoughts on Masters and Leuts with Hammers or Power fists ?
right now I run them with powerswords
I am running a tallonmaster with the relic blade but I am considering adding a Powerfist to my Jumpack Leutenant and a ThunderHammer to my jumpack Master.
thoughts on those loadouts ?
Weapons with -1 to hit would be good with the Master since you have a greater chance to reroll the misses. If the lieutenant is not near the master, you would be better with sure hit/questionable wound weapons.
I'd take a powerfist on the Master. It's more cost-effective than a thunder hammer. I like to keep my lieutenants cheap, though: power sword and nothing else.
So I tested out shroud of heroes on my chaplain dread today, wow it's good, the combination of character on a dread with -1 to hit kept it in the game long after the power fists should have dropped it, even 2+ to hit character with a fist or hammer needs 4's, the termies I assaulted needed 5's, everything else just had trouble hitting and wounding it most of the time.
Giving it a solid A with the shroud, it flys up in a raven with 5 knights, as my warlord it had rr to charge too, solid.
Hi everyone,
Has anyone tried running an infantry gunline with azrael?
How competitive is it?
Currently i'm thinking of runnning the following list:
Azrael
Company Ancient
Hellblasters x10
Scouts x5 bolters
intercessors 2x5
Leutenant
Master with jumpack
DarkShroud
Inceptors Assault Bolters x6
Inceptors Plasma x5
Company veterans x2 + stormshield +1 lascannon
Company Veterans x2 + 1 lascannon
Librarian with jumpPack
Culexus
The idea behind this list is castling around on some objective in cover and deepstriking inceptors with WotDA to eliminate anti infantry vehicles. Afterwards maybe footslogging everyone towards opponent.
Really like the Ancient with hellblasters combo that allows to shoot again if killed by overcharge
Culexus seems like a good option against psychic armies and especially usefull vs space maines null zone, or to tie something up in CC for a turn or two
Hey guys,
I've been struggling to find a list that I'm pleased with so haven't even played with my DA yet. I really want to, because got a darkshroud and the talonmaster which I'm eager to test out.
I have couple questions for you:
1. Is playing a deathwing knights anyway near valid with only DS, full charge, drop on an objective or LR is the only way to go?
2. What about what's the comp way to use RW bikers, I've been thinking 2x plasma and power axe on sergeant, but should I just go max plasma? I'll throw in some ablatives in the two squads I'll field.
Xirax wrote: Hey guys,
I've been struggling to find a list that I'm pleased with so haven't even played with my DA yet. I really want to, because got a darkshroud and the talonmaster which I'm eager to test out.
I have couple questions for you:
1. Is playing a deathwing knights anyway near valid with only DS, full charge, drop on an objective or LR is the only way to go?
2. What about what's the comp way to use RW bikers, I've been thinking 2x plasma and power axe on sergeant, but should I just go max plasma? I'll throw in some ablatives in the two squads I'll field.
Thanks.
My DW Knight are rarely successful with a first turn charge after DS, and they usually burn a CP in failing their charge...In one Tourney game my Knights never got into combat, but they did soak up fire and chased a chunk of his army away from an objective. I have tried the Hunt the Fallen Stratagem as well - even though it hasn't panned out yet I might keep trying. Even if they fail the first turn charge, though, they certainly attract a lot of attention and can usually survive. Psychic attacks that deal Mortal Wounds are a problem - the Watcher can help but only for one. DW Knights in your backfield are not something that can usually be ignored. Getting them a transport costs as much as a second squad. I'm trying a Stormraven now - expensive! All that to say that I think that either option is valid but have a backup plan.
As for RW bikes, I don't think that any of them are ablative. I add extra bikes to my RW squads to get more dakka, not to soak up casualties. Plasma certainly seems the way to go now, although Black Knights let you really use WFTDA.
I strongly prefer transporting DWK. They're really easy to run away from. That said, in the 2 games I've used them, my unit of 10 DWK has been pretty successful at boxing in the opponent. I failed my charge once but denied his escape with my unit of bikes, sammael, and talonmaster on the other side of his main force. The game where I made the charge against a broodlord and some of his flunkies, life was good. After the initial house cleaning, they just happened to be positioned where all the action was, so they were free to move on to other juicy targets.
Company Ancient to babysit a unit of plasma cannon devs and missile launcher devs (the thinking being a lot of people might go after the plasma devs fearing WFTDA and for their trouble will then wear a whole lot of supercharged plasma shots if the devs die).
Or, if I scrouge around for a few points I can get a Ravenwing Champion.
So, in short, with the 4+ roll needed for it to work .... is the Company Ancient effective in your experience?
Has anyone used the RW Champion? Does he manage to succeed in his character killing role?
I found the ancient well worth the points since you may also get an additional shot when killed by overcharged plasma. Paired with hellblasters he is especially good
Timur wrote: I found the ancient well worth the points since you may also get an additional shot when killed by overcharged plasma. Paired with hellblasters he is especially good
Yep agreed, the bonus shots in the event of rolling a 1 (albeit I'd need to roll 1 twice assuming I'm not moving) was one of the things that attracted me to the idea.
Hey guys getting ready to put together my first da flyer and I've been reading that the dark talon with the rift cannon and the 2 hurricane bolters on the wings are the way to go. Have your games been backing this up?
Tagony wrote: Hey guys getting ready to put together my first da flyer and I've been reading that the dark talon with the rift cannon and the 2 hurricane bolters on the wings are the way to go. Have your games been backing this up?
Hi guys
Here is a list that I have been working on, haven’t test it yet. Need to buy some stuff first
What do you think? I think its seems really solid.
I need to get rid of around 150p, which one ven dread or 5 man dev with lasc?
My thoughts: dreds/ devestaors in the back, try to be behind cover and stay still for the reroll on 1s.
All the bikes around darkshroud. Move all the bikes as far as possible to get within 12” rapid. And the black knights advance for the extra range and inv save. Use command point so I can still shoot and charge with the black knights, and use another command point so the plasmas are deadly
Keep Sammy and the huntmaster close for rerolls on hit and wounds.
The regular bikes shoot 36 bolter shoots and 18 plasma shoots.
Flyers move and do their thing.
You got som good dakka:
Bolter shoots 36+24+24+4 =88
Assault cannon 12+12+6=30
Heavy bolter 6+6=12
Lascannon + missile 3+3 =6
Plasma 18+10 =28
2 bombs and 2 rift cannon
Sniper 5
HQ - Sammael in Sableclaw 183p (Twin Assault C 0p, Twin Heavy Bolter 0p, Raven Sword 0p) 183p
- Ravenwing Talonmaster 123p (Twin Assault C 44p, Twin Heavy Bolter 17p, PS 4p) 188p
(PS –replace it with hevenfall blade 0p)Warlord
-Librarian bike 119p (FS 14p) 133p
Tagony wrote: Hey guys getting ready to put together my first da flyer and I've been reading that the dark talon with the rift cannon and the 2 hurricane bolters on the wings are the way to go. Have your games been backing this up?
There's just something about the idea of putting 12 Ak47s under the wings of a fighter jet and expecting it to be effective that amuses me.
Timur wrote: It seems that sniper scouts are a waste of point, in many armies ive seen they are usually used as a screen.
What do you guys think? Is it worth investing in scouts to snipe hqs?a 5 man sniper squad is not likely to kill an hq
I've run 5 sniper scouts in every Dark Angels army I played in 8th edition and they are usually pretty terrible. There has been one game where they did well because the other army didn't have much shooting. Other than that, they are either a deep strike screen or First Blood for the other guy.
Heck I used some earlier tonight. Turn one they ran away from their deployment spot, turn 2 they shot 1-2 orks, turn 3 they got charged and wiped out.
I'd much rather have bolter scouts or CCW scouts, but that's how they're built and I really like the paint job so they are staying in the list.
Tactical squads have been equally useless. They are little more than Battalion filler and bullet catchers for the good stuff.
IMO the Dark Angels snipe characters with Hellblasters and Black Knights, right after the Talonmaster and some Razorbacks kill all the guys standing in front of the characters. I've got maybe 30-35 games of 8th in and I have yet to see sniper rifles make much of an impact.
Scout snipers, ratings, rangers, etc all need very large numbers to fish enough 6's to kill most characters you need dead. At least 15 rifles. Don't think that's worth it but many meta armies do have lynchpin characters.
What's the case with vindicare assassin?He seems good against infantry and ignores invulnerable saves.
But i assume you need two of those to make an impact on the game since one is not likely to kill a character on turn one, and thats whole 180 points which can be spent on a darktalon
And a smart opponent might simply put his important HQs out LoS making the vindicares totally useless
Seems to me that its not worth taking any kind of snipers, since they will probably not be able to kill anything really important in the first turn or two
theriam wrote: Hi guys
Here is a list that I have been working on, haven’t test it yet. Need to buy some stuff first
What do you think? I think its seems really solid.
I need to get rid of around 150p, which one ven dread or 5 man dev with lasc?
My thoughts: dreds/ devestaors in the back, try to be behind cover and stay still for the reroll on 1s.
All the bikes around darkshroud. Move all the bikes as far as possible to get within 12” rapid. And the black knights advance for the extra range and inv save. Use command point so I can still shoot and charge with the black knights, and use another command point so the plasmas are deadly
Keep Sammy and the huntmaster close for rerolls on hit and wounds.
The regular bikes shoot 36 bolter shoots and 18 plasma shoots.
Flyers move and do their thing.
You got som good dakka:
Bolter shoots 36+24+24+4 =88
Assault cannon 12+12+6=30
Heavy bolter 6+6=12
Lascannon + missile 3+3 =6
Plasma 18+10 =28
2 bombs and 2 rift cannon
Sniper 5
HQ - Sammael in Sableclaw 183p (Twin Assault C 0p, Twin Heavy Bolter 0p, Raven Sword 0p) 183p
- Ravenwing Talonmaster 123p (Twin Assault C 44p, Twin Heavy Bolter 17p, PS 4p) 188p
(PS –replace it with hevenfall blade 0p)Warlord
-Librarian bike 119p (FS 14p) 133p
You have sammi listed at his corvex price not Sableclaw .(33 points different). You also forgot to pay for twin bolters on all your bikes squads so each squad is 6 points under it's actual cost (that adds 18 to your list). So really you are over by almost 200 points (198).
As far as I can tell you list is an outrider detachment and a patrol detachment, so you only have 4 CP, which is really lacking.
You need a better screen against turn 1 assault/deepstrike alpha strikes. 5 scouts just won't cut it. I would drop the sniper rifles and camo cloaks off the scouts as neither are all that great a buy (saves you 35 points). I would also drop the assault cannon on the darkshroud, you'll want to advance it every turn for jink so will rarely fire that weapon (saves another 12 points.) That gets you back to being over by only 151. However I would look to add in 2 more 5 man scout squads with bolters. Which would put you over by 261 points. That would get you to a battalion + outrider and 7 CP. It also looks like your bike libby is off on points as the most expensive force weapon is only 10 points. I'd go for a sword at 8 points which puts him at 127.
I would probably drop the dreads as their load out with lascannon and missile is meh, and they are a lot of points. Dropping both of them gets you 330 points back, so 75 points to play with.
Potentially you could add some extra bodies to your dev squad, heavy bolters to a couple scout units, another black knight etc.
Beyond that you regular bikers (not sargent) should always have chainswords instead of pistols as they are the better option, as you will almost never use the pistol.
It is unlikely that you will get all your bikes in rapid fire turn 1, unless you get very lucky 14" move + 12" shooting is only 28" threat range, so essentially you would need to be on your deployment edge straight across from the unit you wanted to shoot, so some will and some won't. You may want to use speed of the raven on one of those instead of the Knights unless you feel like you need to overcharge the knights, or assault with them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Timur wrote: What's the case with vindicare assassin?He seems good against infantry and ignores invulnerable saves.
But i assume you need two of those to make an impact on the game since one is not likely to kill a character on turn one, and thats whole 180 points which can be spent on a darktalon
And a smart opponent might simply put his important HQs out LoS making the vindicares totally useless
Seems to me that its not worth taking any kind of snipers, since they will probably not be able to kill anything really important in the first turn or two
I agree with this, characters are too easy to hide, or too durable. Snipers are fishing for 6s all the time, which makes them not all that great. Especially when some armies have -1 to hit, so you never get a 6. Snipers were kind of a think when commissars were an issue, but even then those characters could just hide out of LOS. The biggest targets now would be things like primaris psykers etc. If sniper rifles were a free swap or maybe 1 point on scouts they might be ok, but they are too pricey for what they accomplish.
vonjankmon wrote: I think people assume that getting their Inceptors in range is always going to be easy. I play Guard and I can tell you that if I went up against any SM player with Plasma Inceptors my Russ's will be at least 9 inches behind my line of guardsman or scout sentinels.
Have fun killing a 70ish point guard squad with that 400ish point combo of Master, Lieutenant, and Inceptors. Longer range units don't suffer from that limitation. I use Plasma Scions in my guard army and there are games when I am waiting until 2nd or 3rd turn to bring them in because I am playing an opponent that has a well structured army to rebuff deep strike. Honestly I feel that DS protection is a requirement given the current meta in 8th and while you may catch the occasional player not doing it, anyone that even remotely has their act together is screening with cheap units.
As someone else who plays guard, if I'm forced to keep a line 9ish inches in front,sides and behind my Russ tanks you probably won a victory in point values spent threatening each other. It's the scion problem only with Space Marines.
You have sammi listed at his corvex price not Sableclaw .(33 points different). You also forgot to pay for twin bolters on all your bikes squads so each squad is 6 points under it's actual cost (that adds 18 to your list). So really you are over by almost 200 points (198).
As far as I can tell you list is an outrider detachment and a patrol detachment, so you only have 4 CP, which is really lacking.
You need a better screen against turn 1 assault/deepstrike alpha strikes. 5 scouts just won't cut it. I would drop the sniper rifles and camo cloaks off the scouts as neither are all that great a buy (saves you 35 points). I would also drop the assault cannon on the darkshroud, you'll want to advance it every turn for jink so will rarely fire that weapon (saves another 12 points.) That gets you back to being over by only 151. However I would look to add in 2 more 5 man scout squads with bolters. Which would put you over by 261 points. That would get you to a battalion + outrider and 7 CP. It also looks like your bike libby is off on points as the most expensive force weapon is only 10 points. I'd go for a sword at 8 points which puts him at 127.
I would probably drop the dreads as their load out with lascannon and missile is meh, and they are a lot of points. Dropping both of them gets you 330 points back, so 75 points to play with.
Potentially you could add some extra bodies to your dev squad, heavy bolters to a couple scout units, another black knight etc.
Beyond that you regular bikers (not sargent) should always have chainswords instead of pistols as they are the better option, as you will almost never use the pistol.
It is unlikely that you will get all your bikes in rapid fire turn 1, unless you get very lucky 14" move + 12" shooting is only 28" threat range, so essentially you would need to be on your deployment edge straight across from the unit you wanted to shoot, so some will and some won't. You may want to use speed of the raven on one of those instead of the Knights unless you feel like you need to overcharge the knights, or assault with them.
Hi
Thanks for the info, i have made most of the Changes you have said, they sound really good.
I will play with it a couple of turns and se how it goes.
Timur wrote: What's the case with vindicare assassin?He seems good against infantry and ignores invulnerable saves.
But i assume you need two of those to make an impact on the game since one is not likely to kill a character on turn one, and thats whole 180 points which can be spent on a darktalon
And a smart opponent might simply put his important HQs out LoS making the vindicares totally useless
Seems to me that its not worth taking any kind of snipers, since they will probably not be able to kill anything really important in the first turn or two
I agree with this, characters are too easy to hide, or too durable. Snipers are fishing for 6s all the time, which makes them not all that great. Especially when some armies have -1 to hit, so you never get a 6. Snipers were kind of a think when commissars were an issue, but even then those characters could just hide out of LOS. The biggest targets now would be things like primaris psykers etc. If sniper rifles were a free swap or maybe 1 point on scouts they might be ok, but they are too pricey for what they accomplish.
Two things- first, -1 to hit doesn't prevent rolling a 6 to wound, although it does lower the number of opportunities to roll that magic 6. Also, most characters who are not monsters are wounded on 4's, sometimes even 3's (in the case of Guard characters for example). Getting a 6 guarantees a wound, but the target can still fail saves and therefore take more wounds. I do agree that a single unit of snipers is next to useless unless there are like 10 of them in the squad (or more). A pair of such squads, or one squad and a Vindicare assassin, could at least force some tough deployment decisions by your opponent.
Timur wrote: What's the case with vindicare assassin?He seems good against infantry and ignores invulnerable saves.
But i assume you need two of those to make an impact on the game since one is not likely to kill a character on turn one, and thats whole 180 points which can be spent on a darktalon
And a smart opponent might simply put his important HQs out LoS making the vindicares totally useless
Seems to me that its not worth taking any kind of snipers, since they will probably not be able to kill anything really important in the first turn or two
I agree with this, characters are too easy to hide, or too durable. Snipers are fishing for 6s all the time, which makes them not all that great. Especially when some armies have -1 to hit, so you never get a 6. Snipers were kind of a think when commissars were an issue, but even then those characters could just hide out of LOS. The biggest targets now would be things like primaris psykers etc. If sniper rifles were a free swap or maybe 1 point on scouts they might be ok, but they are too pricey for what they accomplish.
Two things- first, -1 to hit doesn't prevent rolling a 6 to wound, although it does lower the number of opportunities to roll that magic 6. Also, most characters who are not monsters are wounded on 4's, sometimes even 3's (in the case of Guard characters for example). Getting a 6 guarantees a wound, but the target can still fail saves and therefore take more wounds. I do agree that a single unit of snipers is next to useless unless there are like 10 of them in the squad (or more). A pair of such squads, or one squad and a Vindicare assassin, could at least force some tough deployment decisions by your opponent.
I use a squad of five Snipers and they are part of my gunline and not part of the screen. I don't expect miracles from them, but against Guard and Orks they can realistically kill the minor supporting cast characters that are important to those armies (Platoon Commanders, Painboyz, Weirdboyz, Astropaths and even Commissars if anybody still takes them). Against major characters they might chip a wound or two off. That doesn't sound like much, but it can make a difference in the final duel.
Tagony wrote: So I like the look of the nepilim jet fighter better. Do you guys think anyone will mind if I put the dark talon weapon load on the jet fighter body?
It's the same kit, so you're asking if you just don't build the cathedral on top? I'd think that's fine so long as the weapons are correct. You might mention it to your opponent during deployment. I've thought about doing this too because Dark Talons are so good but I don't much like the model.
Yah, I asked a buddy of mine that goes to more tourneys than I do and he agrees. To me, as long as the right weapon load is on it and i'm specific to my opponent that it is the dark talon I do not think they will care I skipped putting a cathedral on a plane. Plus all I ever get are friendly games anymore. The last tourney I was in was probably 4 years ago sadly.
Had two games at the FLGS as preparation for an upcoming tourney. I took two Detacments:
Battalion: Azrael, Sammael, Librarian, 4 Scout Squads (one Sniper Sqd), 1 Ravenwing Biker Squad with 5 bikes and two Plasmaguns, a Chapter Ancient and a Apothecary.
Spearhead: Primaris Lieutenant, Full Hellblaster Squad with Plasma Incinerators, Full Hellblaster Squad with Heavy Plasma Incinerators, Devastator Squad (2 x Las, 2 x Missile).
Game 1 vs Necrons. We played Tactical Objectives on a city board. This was my first match against Necrons. He had two big Warrior squads, a hover-thing that looked like an Ark, two Destroyer Squads (floaty Lascannons), a big squad with Tesla(?), a squad with some heavy weapons and a squad of Wraiths. I placed a central core of Hellblasters with Azrael and the supporting characters with the Scouts spread out to buy space and be able to grab an objective or two if the chance arose.
He won the roll to go first and pounded at my Hellblasters while his Warriors went after my Scouts. It looked grim for a bit, but the Hellblasters did their thing and pulverised Wraiths, the flying tank, the Destroyers and plenty of other Necrons. The Ravenwing did well, using Speed of the Raven and Sammael to do some damage and get objectives. The Sniper Scouts rolled several 6s and while they didn't kill his characters, they did scare them! By the end of the third turn he was pretty much down to his three Characters hiding in a building. I had both Hellblaster Squads (the Heavies were down to 2 models) and the Devastators plus two remnant Scout squads and a remnant Ravenwing Squad. Sammael had torn through a squad but ended up alone in front of six of those floaty Lascannons...Oops.
Once I figured out target priorities the shooting duel turned in my favour. The Heavy Plasma Incinerators were a bit awkward in this match, but still effective. The normal Hellblasters deleted expensive things each turn with WFTDA while the Heavies sniped stuff. I had four CPs left at the end (Azrael rolled well) and I forgot to use Only in Death Does Duty End when Sammael died in the centre of their line. The Librarian rolled Super Smite twice and used Aversion to annoy one of the Floaty-Lascannon squads all game.
Game 2 vs Grey Knights. He had a Dreadnought character, a Master, three Forge World GK Dreads, two Razorbacks, a Stormraven and four Squads of Grey Knights. We played Kill Points and he won the roll-off for first turn. The highlight and lowlight was his Stormraven swooping in and buffed by a Psychic power proceeding to wipe out the Plasma Incinerator Hellblaster Squad. Six of the dying troops though, knocked the Stormraven down. Good job Chapter Ancient. The Heavy Plasma Incinerators knocked his Dreadnought Master down to three wounds, and a Scout Squad with a Heavy Bolter used the Hellfire Stratagem to finish him off. I ended up tabling him, but I was looking pretty ragged by the end. The Apothecary did well in this game, adding a Heavy Plasma Incinerator guy each round. The Heavy Plasma Incinerators were nasty against the Dreads while the Devastators took down Razorbacks. The Ravenwing and Sammael were also effective as a small, mobile strike force to complement my shooters.
I am pretty happy with the list, although I think I should have built the second Hellblaster Squad with standard Incinerators. Still, had I faced T8 tanks the Heavy guys might have been well worth it. The Chapter Ancient is staying, but I am still chewing on the Apothecary. He is a nice insurance policy, and he was certainly effective but he is not a miracle worker and takes a drop. I put the Ravenwing element in for a lark and I have to say that I was impressed. I have another week to submit my list, but I am travelling so these were my last test games. I could triple down on Hellblasters and buy another box and build them as normal Incinerator dudes and swap out the Devastators for a five-man Heavy Incinerator Squad.
I love hearing blow-by-blow reports like that. What was the outcome of the first match? It's interesting to hear an account of Hellblasters with the heavy incinerators.
On that note, I've been kicking around a more gunline-ish list than I usually run. It pains me to give up Deathwing, but I'm giving it a try. Here's what I'm thinking so far:
Battalion
Azrael - 180
Sammael on Sableclaw - 216
Lieutenant - power sword - 64
3x5 Scouts - 165
20 Hellblasters - incinerators - 660
Company Ancient - heavenfall blade - 67
Air Wing Detachment
Dark Talon x4 - 640
Lots of shooty fun! I'm not entirely sold on the double Hellblasters, but it's nice to create some target priority issues with them since you can just use WFTDA on whichever unit has more dudes left. I've never used an Ancient, and I'm optimistic that it's going to make a difference with 20 guys who like to fry themselves 1/36 times. I may give it a go to see how it works!
edit: I may switch out one of the Hellblaster units and the Ancient for a Dark Talon, a Darkshroud, and a unit of Scouts.
The game against Necrons was won on Objective points, and I was also in a position to table him. The Hellblasters are not just a gun-line. With Azrael along they marched forwards to take a central objective that a I drew. Having said that, I was looking pretty tattered! High-rate of fire shots will wear them down.
I think that the Rapid-Firing Plasma Incinerators are the way to go. With Azrael along I Supercharged with Rapid Fire with a sense of confidence (how I deleted the Wraiths). They also took down a Stormraven out of spite in death (2+ to hit with the Chapter Ancient). I think I'll keep the second squad with the Heavies, though, as they do deal with T8 stuff (and T4 for that matter) a little better.
I do not like facing -1 to hit things with my list. I also lack a Darkshroud, and will not be able to get one before the tournament.
Your list with four Dark Talons looks solid. That's a lot of Dakka!
That sounds like a real bitch to play against. I like it! I'm surprised it didn't struggle more, though. That list obviously devastates horde armies, but I can't see it being able to generate enough damage against tough targets. The 10 Plagueburst Crawler list that seems to be making rounds comes to mind.
I would think that the "Boots on the Ground" thing would make a list like that a non-starter these days. Of course having to shoot at a bunch of -1 to hit flyers before you can shoot the characters would be a royal pain.
New around here and picking up my Dark Angels after a ~10 year break.
Our FLGS is running a casual tournament 750pts first, then to 1000pts, then 1250pts.
My Ravenwing list is:
Sammael in Sableclaw
6 Black Knights
3 RW Bikers (2 meltas, sarge with power sword)
Darkshroud with HB
Just played one game so far (my second 40k game) and got a win against a newish space wolf player. He was running 5 Wulfen and Rune Priest riding in a Stormfang Gunship, 5 Sky Claws (? Jump pack assault marines) and 3 cyber wolves.
It was the ancient relic mission and a real bloodbath of a game (Wulfen wiped the entire Black Knight squad in turn one!). Ended turn 4 as I killed all his ground units with only the Gunship left on 2 wounds unable to claim the objective. I was left with Darkshroud and two bikers.
I'm loving the speed of the Ravenwing and they seem fairly resilient to ranged attack with T5, the 4+ invuln, and -1 to hit. Sammael is super fun - I assaulted his Gunship, finished off the wulfen, fell back from combat to blast 4 of the Sky Claws - he has so many options and re-rollable 2+ to hit feels wrong!
A couple of questions:
- Do you guys constantly advance your RW to get the Jink save? I feel like I didn't want run away from the objective and wanted to make use of my fire power. But that 4+ was useful so many times.
- Tips to expand the force to 1000 and 1250? I've got a box of 10 Hellblasters. Them plus Azrael? but don't want to get too cheesy with Sammy and Azrael in 1250pts haha. But an advancing tough gunline could work to back up the initial RW assault.
Whether you advance RW depends on what guns they will get shot with. Anything AP -1 or less and jink won't do any good. Also if you plan on charging and don't want to use or can't use the Speed strategem is the other factor. Keep in mind that when you advance you don't have to use all of the movement. You can declare advance and only move a fraction of an inch.
DA hellblasters are great. They don't need a master to reroll unless you are moving and can take down most any target.
Having said that you may want to consider a devoted antitank unit like devastators or a dread. Both benefit from stationary rerolls unlike predators. Your melta bikes may not be enough.
Scouts will help screen off alpha strike shenanegans and you should be able to get two squads plus anything else since they are relatively cheap.
Azrael is great but only if you have a couple high value squads for him to protect. He won't keep up with your RW.
Alternatively you can go full RW and put in the talonmaster or dark talon. Both will benefit from sammy and talonmaster will reciprocate. Both units provide some anti horde that you are currently lacking.
Wow I didn't even think advance works like that. Is that way of doing it specified in the rules/faq anywhere? Not doubting you, I just would assume your model has to at least move further than your max. move distance to count as advancing.
Thanks for the list tips. I've got a dread so I'll give that a shot with the hellblasters - I can only edge highlight so much black! Also got some sniper scouts, though a couple unit of bolter scouts would be an easy addition.
From core rules advance: roll a dice and add the result to their move characteristic.
From core rules moving: a model can be moved in any direction to a distance less than or equal to their move characteristic.
Since advancing only changes the characteristic and you are allowed to move less than your characteristic you can therefore declare advance and move less than 1 inch.
Sadly, I've verified this. They don't specify that you need to use your full advance unless you have a minimum move stat, which is present on the aerospace fighters
If it makes you feel better you can move your unit in a big circle so it ends up a fraction of an inch from where it started (unless its a supersonic flyer of course).
I'm looking at Cypher/Fallen and trying to figure out how I would make them work. I like that they're a slightly cheaper version of Company Veterans and that Cypher has a decent amount of short range dakka to go with, but I'm not sure how to make them fit in a way that makes sense.
I'm confused at taking the regular Space Marine Captain on Jump Pack. It seems to me he is listed as generic Space Marines. Inceptors are under Dark Angels. I assume the Captain is NOT allowed to re-roll the misses of Inceptors since the ability is listed as Chapter. They aren't in the same Chapter correct?>
I'm assuming that's why he is taking Captain and Librarian with Jump Pack to drop in with the Inceptors but maybe not...
I'm confused at taking the regular Space Marine Captain on Jump Pack. It seems to me he is listed as generic Space Marines. Inceptors are under Dark Angels. I assume the Captain is NOT allowed to re-roll the misses of Inceptors since the ability is listed as Chapter. They aren't in the same Chapter correct?>
I'm assuming that's why he is taking Captain and Librarian with Jump Pack to drop in with the Inceptors but maybe not...
I expect it's actually a Master, which is the exact same thing as a Captain. Some players still call it a Captain.
I'm confused at taking the regular Space Marine Captain on Jump Pack. It seems to me he is listed as generic Space Marines. Inceptors are under Dark Angels. I assume the Captain is NOT allowed to re-roll the misses of Inceptors since the ability is listed as Chapter. They aren't in the same Chapter correct?>
I'm assuming that's why he is taking Captain and Librarian with Jump Pack to drop in with the Inceptors but maybe not...
I expect it's actually a Master, which is the exact same thing as a Captain. Some players still call it a Captain.
Okay maybe it's just a BattlesScribe thing. Then he should choose Dark Angels Battalion for his Captain, Librarian, and 3 Scouts.
The reason I suspect he wants regular Marines is to get access to other stratagems as well as regular Marines psychic phase for access to Nullzone and Psychic Fortress perhaps. This would mean having the battalion be regular marines.
If he wants to re-roll the Inceptors with Captain, then they need to be Dark Angels.
I do love that list though since he has 2 units of Plasma love.
I feel like other than maybe guard (and maybe not even them) all imperium armies play better as soup. I'get restricted my self to space marine soup, but even the different flavors of marines have strengths and weaknesses that can be exploited.
Soup was always going to be what worked best as soon as they decided to go with the current detachment format for list building. It doesn't take long for the most efficient choices to float to the top of the competitive scene and when guys can cherry pick the best units from more than one codex, they will. However, I still think this is better than in previous editions where if we got an overpowered codex, we were stuck with it dominating the tournament scene, potentially for years Or, conversely, if your codex was weak, you knew you might as well pack up you figs and put them in storage until (hopefully) the next edition.
I like the fluff and mono-armies as much as the next long time player, but I'll take 8th over any of the other editions just based on the flexibility and responsiveness GW has shown in managing it. (As a tournament rules set anyway, narrative play is different IMO). Anyway, I'm just glad that DA are back to being a useful and competitive army.
This does confirm my suspicion that the Azreal gunline is not the strongest way to go using DA. It just lacks the range to beat out other gunline armies. Things may have been different if DA got turn 1 but I'm not sure how much. I think azzy can make a good firebase but too many points sunk into that base reduces your flexibility.
I'd agree with all of that. DA have excellent area denial ability and can easily take advantage of weak spots in opposing deployment with bikes and powerful deep striking units like DWK. The gunline options are strong, but I think you'd be remiss to not take advantage our more mobile units.
I thought they were only streaming top table? If I knew they were moving around I would have tuned in today, but I didn't because top table will always be one of three or four broken lists, slow turns, and armies that were speed painted.
I thought they were only streaming top table? If I knew they were moving around I would have tuned in today, but I didn't because top table will always be one of three or four broken lists, slow turns, and armies that were speed painted.
I thought they were only streaming top table? If I knew they were moving around I would have tuned in today, but I didn't because top table will always be one of three or four broken lists, slow turns, and armies that were speed painted.
This wasn't true at all though. Over 2 days I saw
Dark Angels
Aeldari
Daemons,
CSM Ravenguard
Blood Angels
Astra Millitarum.
All different lists. It is true that it seemed like games were not finishing though. Also the warhammer tv (GW) stream was not top tables and had other armies on it like Orks. Admech.
My modeling budget is at a point where I can get either a box of 3 Inceptors or a box of 3 Aggressors. From what I've been reading, it seems to be fairly even in terms of pros and cons, Is there one or the other that I should get? I currently have a small DA force, and just play garagehammer with friends.
I went back and forth on the same dilemma but finally picked up a box of Inceptors the other day. They were pretty fun to put together. I'm honestly not sure which one would have been the stronger choice, but I know that the Inceptors should at least get to shoot once (long as there's no Dark Reapers on the table).
If you're not going with the plasma guns, consider the starter kit Inceptors. I think they come with the assault bolters instead, and they're probably cheaper on ebay. Really, if I had to do it again, I'd probably just cut down some plasma cannons or plasmaguns or something and put them on the starter kit ones.
That is how I made my plasma inceptors as I had 12 starter box inceptors. For DA inceptors are probably the better choice, but it depends on the rest of your list.
daedalus wrote: I went back and forth on the same dilemma but finally picked up a box of Inceptors the other day. They were pretty fun to put together. I'm honestly not sure which one would have been the stronger choice, but I know that the Inceptors should at least get to shoot once (long as there's no Dark Reapers on the table).
If you're not going with the plasma guns, consider the starter kit Inceptors. I think they come with the assault bolters instead, and they're probably cheaper on ebay. Really, if I had to do it again, I'd probably just cut down some plasma cannons or plasmaguns or something and put them on the starter kit ones.
I love my plasma inceptors. With the Secrets of the Dark Age strategem they've eaten LoW units, Helldrakes and more than a few tanks. I want to buy Know no Fear, but would need to replace the arms on the Inceptors. I just don't see the value in the bolter version
Bolter Inceptors are great for clearing chaff units. I ran them once against a Chaos opponent with lots of cultists holding objectives in his backfield, and they put in some major work. Even a unit of 3 puts out 18 Heavy Bolter shots that can potentially get rerolls of 1's if a jump Master accompanies them. A unit of 6 will shred any light infantry they come across unless they have multiple stacking -1 to hit buffs.
Shrapnelbait wrote: My modeling budget is at a point where I can get either a box of 3 Inceptors or a box of 3 Aggressors. From what I've been reading, it seems to be fairly even in terms of pros and cons, Is there one or the other that I should get? I currently have a small DA force, and just play garagehammer with friends.
Aggressors with Azreal, or inceptors with more mobile HQ's
This may seem like an odd question at this point but I recently picked up the Dark Vengance models for a steal of a price (35$) and I have another 7 bikers laying around not painted yet and no army for them to go to, so I was thinking of going with a small dark angels force.
Problem is I am having a problem finding the "inspirational spark" to move forward on this army. I already have a large space wolf and a very large salamander army, so one is cc oriented and one is range focused. That's what's dragging me to dark angels, thinking green firebase with ravenwing support. Any ideas on where I should go from here? I would like this army to be semi competitive since my other factions are more fluffy based.
I have been having fun using a techpriest as warlord. I give him a Servo-harness, a bike, Lion's Roar and add Huntsman as warlord trait. Then I can drive around and snipe characters with 3 plasma shots, a flamer and twin bolters, all at bs 2+ And while “hiding” behind own Landspeeders and healing them every turn.
I'm still early in my gaming experience but have had a couple of wins with a 750pt RW list and a win with a 1000pt mix list (750 RW 250 Green). The protection from Jink and Darkshroud seem pretty key and I've had great success with Speed of the Raven and WotDA strats.
I'm hesitant to go bigger in points without more CP 's or more bodies - if I don't get first turn the RW are quite vulnerable.
But man having speed is fun. And I wouldn't leave without Sammy in Sableclaw - he hangs around and can pull off those critical late game moves to secure a victory.
I just read through the DAFAQ and noticed multiple mentions of RW reolling saves with jink. What did I miss? When jinking your save becomes 4+ rerollable?
Radikus wrote: I just read through the DAFAQ and noticed multiple mentions of RW reolling saves with jink. What did I miss? When jinking your save becomes 4+ rerollable?
Radikus wrote: I just read through the DAFAQ and noticed multiple mentions of RW reolling saves with jink. What did I miss? When jinking your save becomes 4+ rerollable?
100% was looking at the 7e one. My confusion was off the chart trying to figure out how to get a 4+ rerollable save on Ravenwing.
Anyways, I always have a boner for RW but they hardly are ever competitive and my group basically plays for tourney practice. This means running DA is a labor of love where someone could test hyper strong lists against you. I am sure someone will be running the eldar list for other people to practice against. Is RW the place to be to play competitive DA? The triple flyer, black knight lists seems to be the go to. I have yet to try it, but the it kinda excites me. Does anyone have experience with running it against other strong lists?
So I'm just now starting a DA army with bits and pieces and would like the core of it to be Deathwing. I get that this is not the most competitive build, but this is going to be a low model count just-for-fun side army for me, so that doesn't bother me.
I don't want it to get wiped every time though, so what wisdom do ye have about how to outfit 2-3 deathwing units dropping in along with a DK squad that are going be supported mostly by Greenwing non-Primaris dudes?
TheNightWillEnd wrote: So I'm just now starting a DA army with bits and pieces and would like the core of it to be Deathwing. I get that this is not the most competitive build, but this is going to be a low model count just-for-fun side army for me, so that doesn't bother me.
I don't want it to get wiped every time though, so what wisdom do ye have about how to outfit 2-3 deathwing units dropping in along with a DK squad that are going be supported mostly by Greenwing non-Primaris dudes?
I would use a landraider for the deathwing knights to get them into a good position for a reliable charge + landraider can be used to do some chaff clearing work before you disembark and charg your knights.
I just finished painting my 2000pts RW list and should be giving it a run this weekend. Agree on vulnerability to Turn 1 strikes.
It currently consists of
Sammy on Corvex
Talonmaster, heavenfall, brilliant strategist
Librarian on bike
Apothecary on bike
8 Black Knights
Shroud w HB 3 bikes, 2 meltas
3 bikes, 2 meltas
4 bikes, 2 plasma, pw LS, HB/AC AB, MM AB, MM LS Vengeance
Dark Talon
3 Outrider detachments, 6 CPs.
I was running the Attack Bikes with the melta sqds to bulk out wound but now not sure I want to since I can advance the melta bikes and still shoot (and getting the 4+ jink) plus the MM doesn't have to get so close and can benefit from being stationary at times giving reroll 1s. Will see how it plays out.
I've run a pretty similar army since 8th started and had a lot of fun with it. There are a few auto-loss matchups, but it'll compete with many of the heavy hitters. I've had great luck with Deathwing Knights and Land Raider Crusaders. I want to love terminators, but they really only achieve okay status with Belial or Azrael giving them rerolls. If Deathwing Assault ever becomes 1/2 CP, they might be a little more worthwhile, but they're a thematic choice at best until then. Azrael and Belial are basically auto-includes in a DW list, and if you have the guts to run large unit of DWK, a librarian can be very helpful, too. It's a great list that won't break the bank. Have fun!
So I was looking at the dark angels codex, planning out my build, and came across something unexpected.
The codex says that a srg of a tactical squad can replace both his bolt pistol and bolter with items from the equipment list. This means you could do stuff like have a squad of 10 men, you can have a guy with a plasma gun, a guy with a plasma cannon, and a srg with 2 combi plasmas right? That seems silly and awesome at the same time.
A 5 man squad, each with srg with 2 combi plasma and a plasma gun comes to only 108 pts, not bad.
Personally if I am reading that right I am thinking dual storm bolters on him, giving a 10 man squad 26 shots, that's a bit cool. Dire avengers exarch eat your heart out.
Aleister_Dakka wrote: The Sergeant Equipment list allows for the unit to take 1 combi weapon. There is a ‘take one of these’ lists and a ‘take up to two of these’ lists.
OK thanks, I totally missed that last night. I was thinking that was crazy odd that they would do that for dark angels and not normal marines, but then again dark angels are an odd group and I could also see that being allowed.
Oh well my dreams of a single dude firing 8 bolter shots at 12" will have to go back to the bikers dudes.
so how did the Dark Angels end up doing at the LVO? I didn't see a single list that seemed to employ Deathwing at all. Very sad. GW really needs to do something about making Terminators more viable as a whole. Maybe that also involves nerfing Plasma a bit, I don't know.
I think if all Terminators were 5 points cheaper they'd be a lot closer to being viable. And if the Deathwing Assault stratagem was 1-2 CP instead of 2-3. Or, perhaps have it be a "once per game" deal and let it be 1 CP for 1 unit to do it, or 3 CP for 2 units. Or something. Just spitballing here.
bobafett012 wrote: so how did the Dark Angels end up doing at the LVO? I didn't see a single list that seemed to employ Deathwing at all. Very sad. GW really needs to do something about making Terminators more viable as a whole. Maybe that also involves nerfing Plasma a bit, I don't know.
I think at least 1 list was in the top 100, maybe 2? I think competitively Ravenwing is what is doing the best (which is still low/middle of the pack). It's cool that Ravenwing can sorta hang, I am hoping the updates can really push DA up there a bit more. I think everyone in this thread shares your sentiment about termies and Deathwing. I doubt Deathwing will ever be competitive, which is a bummer. But, Ravenwing might be our shining beacon with a bit of a buff.
35 per Terminator might be about right. Deathwing assault really needs to be cheaper, somehow. With RW bikes readily available and able to use SotR, precision mass dakka isn't really all that awesome. It's definitely not worth a whopping 3 CP when you can have your plasma units eviscerate something huge for 1. 2 CP for a full termies unit to fire twice would be something I'd use. I still don't think it'd be amazing, but it would at least make the strat functional.
As for LVO, we didn't do so hot. It looks like sammael and planes was the weapon of choice, which is not terribly surprising to anyone here, I'd imagine. There were a couple Azrael gunline in the middle of the pack, but that's just not a viable strategy when Dark Reapers do everything that list can but do it better.
bobafett012 wrote: so how did the Dark Angels end up doing at the LVO? I didn't see a single list that seemed to employ Deathwing at all. Very sad. GW really needs to do something about making Terminators more viable as a whole. Maybe that also involves nerfing Plasma a bit, I don't know.
I think at least 1 list was in the top 100, maybe 2? I think competitively Ravenwing is what is doing the best (which is still low/middle of the pack). It's cool that Ravenwing can sorta hang, I am hoping the updates can really push DA up there a bit more. I think everyone in this thread shares your sentiment about termies and Deathwing. I doubt Deathwing will ever be competitive, which is a bummer. But, Ravenwing might be our shining beacon with a bit of a buff.
The real problem with DA right now that stopped them from being more common in the top 100 was they are not good soup ingredients. As a single codex I think we are one of the more well rounded, but there is almost nothing on our list that can't be gotten for cheaper somewhere else. There were two other problems, minuses to hit were very common, which hurts our plasma units, and the our -1 to hit bubble was ignored by the most common meta list (ynarri-altioc). BA did better than us because they can handle dark reaper spam better than we can, and their players are bit more willing to cheat (descent of angels totally works like that).
When Ynarri get adjusted down to sane level, I expect Dark Angels will do better since they are a hard counter for us. Still in the land of soup, ingredients are king, and we are just not a good soup ingredient. So Until they fix soup (and we have to accept that may never happen), we just won't be a top army.
TBH, that's what the codex looked like to me when I first went through it, but I got told how crazy I was and how great it was.
It'll be somewhat interesting to see how Custodes do, because they are ridiculously Elite, far more than DW, but they have like twice the wounds and some other goodies to keep them alive. I'm just not sure small points decreases would do very much to make terms competitive even in non-DW space marine armies.
For instance, in my army, 5 points cheaper doesn't even give me 1 extra squad of terminators, more like 3 extra terms. of course the points drop is needed, I just think there has to be more adjustment than just that. Maybe go back to 2 heavy weapons per squad, maybe 3 wounds, tone down over charged plasma, or a combination of some of these things.
And yeah, the deathwing assault stratagem is pretty much garbage for the cost. I can't believe anyone, play testers, GW's guys though that 2/3 CPs for extra bolter fire was worth that cost... now if it also did something like add 1 to wound roll, or -1 to their save, then maybe, but the way it is now is not worth the cost. Should have been 1/2CPs, or 2/3CPs for ALL Deathwing terminator squads deep striking that turn. Oh well, I have been a DW player since the mid 90's, i'm certainly not going to stop now, just some terminator love would have been nice!
I REALLY wish that they would've had a homing beacon strat that allowed bike squads to drop a marker similar to stealth suits for Tau. Dropping DW squads within 6" of your opponent would give them the reliability they need for their cost.
I think melee termies may be fun to transport in a storm raven with a chaplain dreadnought, an ancient and asmodai for extra attacks.
They would be absolutely devastating, but probably not very competetive.
Storm raven paired with a darkshorud is likely to survive a round of shooting and get termies into position, unless youre facing those dark reapers, then youre screwed
Timur wrote: I think melee termies may be fun to transport in a storm raven with a chaplain dreadnought, an ancient and asmodai for extra attacks.
They would be absolutely devastating, but probably not very competetive.
Storm raven paired with a darkshorud is likely to survive a round of shooting and get termies into position, unless youre facing those dark reapers, then youre screwed
Problem is that doesn't work. I tried writing a list with the exact same setup, but the SR only holds 12 models, so 5 terms is 10, the ancient makes 12, so no room for asmodai unfortunately. Got to run LR crusader to get them all in.
Timur wrote: I think melee termies may be fun to transport in a storm raven with a chaplain dreadnought, an ancient and asmodai for extra attacks.
They would be absolutely devastating, but probably not very competetive.
Storm raven paired with a darkshorud is likely to survive a round of shooting and get termies into position, unless youre facing those dark reapers, then youre screwed
Problem is that doesn't work. I tried writing a list with the exact same setup, but the SR only holds 12 models, so 5 terms is 10, the ancient makes 12, so no room for asmodai unfortunately. Got to run LR crusader to get them all in.
That seems to be my problem with deathwing knights as well, they are already expensive, but if they can get into CC they are arguably worth it. Getting them into CC is the problem, even with master of maneuver it's still about coin flip odds, and that requires you to have your warlord deep strike behind them. Adding a transport skews the value proposition, so it's easy to tie up almost a third of your points getting 10 wounds of models into CC.
I'm hesitant to make that kind of investment in a TAC list, especially since other units can fulfill similar roles, for a lot less.
Grimgold wrote: The real problem with DA right now that stopped them from being more common in the top 100 was they are not good soup ingredients.
this is the right context. The highest ranking Imperial players mixed Guard, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc. Custodes will probably appear in the next tournament's soups.
I do think Azreal and a few primaris marines are good in soup but it's hard to compete with the more specialized factions. And yes the best possible Dark Angels list probably includes other Imperials. It's possible that GW will add another carrot or stick to make soup armies less common, but for now they're firmly in the Competitive meta. (Getting mad about this is a waste of your time and do it in another thread.)
The things I see as attractive as "soup" from DA would be
Character land speeders (people are going crazy for custodes bikers right now, our speeders are equally good IMO.)
Plasma Inceptors with WOTDA. The issue is that you don't want to take a ton of these guys at the cost so it makes finding the right detachment tough.
I think Sammi and a talon master with 3 scout squads and 1-2 plasma ceptor squads could fit nicely with some other armies in a soup
Other marines (blood angels seem best) or some guard.
I honestly think in the current meta Azzy + helblasters is an expensive trap. I think Ravenguard do helblasters better against things like dark reapers (deploy in range of the reapers. ) But in both cases I think helblasters struggle against things like dark reapers. (what doesn't) where your character speeders don't
I believe right now Dark Angels are the most flexible Imperial Army out there. I think is a Codex that offers a ton of flexibility in how you want to build and play your army.
But as others have said, this is better achieved by using just Imperial Soup. In the context of "Codex-only" armies thought, I don't think other imperial army that can accomplish what DA can.
That doesn't mean theres not some balance changes to be made, of course, specially for DeathWing.
I'm not sure it's fair to say hell blasters struggle against dark reapers, It's like saying tokyo struggles against godzilla, when the problem isn't tokyo it's how OP godzilla is. As for soup maybe black knights, but that's a stretch because ingredients are usually cheap and/or specialized neither of which really apply to black knights.
Grimgold wrote: I'm not sure it's fair to say hell blasters struggle against dark reapers, It's like saying tokyo struggles against godzilla, when the problem isn't tokyo it's how OP godzilla is. As for soup maybe black knights, but that's a stretch because ingredients are usually cheap and/or specialized neither of which really apply to black knights.
When talking about competitive meta Dark Reapers should be excluded to measure how good a unit is. They are just so OP that they negate wholle factions like Tyranids or Imperial Guard from existing. They will be nerfed, and if not, whell. We are screwed
Timur wrote: I think melee termies may be fun to transport in a storm raven with a chaplain dreadnought, an ancient and asmodai for extra attacks.
They would be absolutely devastating, but probably not very competetive.
Storm raven paired with a darkshorud is likely to survive a round of shooting and get termies into position, unless youre facing those dark reapers, then youre screwed
Problem is that doesn't work. I tried writing a list with the exact same setup, but the SR only holds 12 models, so 5 terms is 10, the ancient makes 12, so no room for asmodai unfortunately. Got to run LR crusader to get them all in.
I tried a list the other week where I had 7 DW Knights, Asmodai and a regular Apothecary in a LR Crusader.
Is it close to a 1000 points? Yes, yes it is.
Does it completely delete whatever it manages to charge? Yes, yes it does.
I've an idea for a Ravenwing force (essentially because I want an excuse to use those sexy new Custodes jetbikes as a Sammael conversion) but I'd like to know if it would at least be semi-comp.
The list is essentially Sammael, Talonmaster, 8 Black Knights, a Darkshroud, 2 Dark Talons and 3 squads of Scouts.
I'm not sure if it's too few models or too narrow a strategy? Thoughts and usage/list building tips please.
Just curious, what is the main reason that people are taking Hellblasters over an all plasma cannon Devastator squad? The HBs are definitely more durable, but the Devs would get an average of 2 shots each out to the full 36". One of the Devs also gets +1 to hit making it better against all the -1 to hit floating around or guaranteed not to overheat on no minuses. Is the mobility of the hellblasters the deciding factor, and if so are people taking the assault versions?
daedalus wrote: I'm a fan of the mobility and the deep strike nature. Plus they're flying. The opponent HAS to remove them otherwise I shut down one of his units on an assault, then walk away, shoot again, and shut down the unit again.
I think you're thinking of Inceptors not Hellblasters. Just curious, (I don't have the codex yet) how are you assaulting a second time when you leave combat. Shooting yes, due to Fly keyword, but I didn't think you were allowed to charge after falling back normally.
White Scars can fall back and charge in the same turn, but sadly our boys in green cannot. Still, the tactic of shoot, charge, fall back, and shoot again is a viable thing for Inceptors.
daedalus wrote: I'm a fan of the mobility and the deep strike nature. Plus they're flying. The opponent HAS to remove them otherwise I shut down one of his units on an assault, then walk away, shoot again, and shut down the unit again.
I think you're thinking of Inceptors not Hellblasters. Just curious, (I don't have the codex yet) how are you assaulting a second time when you leave combat. Shooting yes, due to Fly keyword, but I didn't think you were allowed to charge after falling back normally.
I was thinking about Inceptors. I was also thinking that there was a stratagem that allowed charging, but looking more carefully, I'm not honestly sure what I was thinking.
There are no primaris specific tactics in any of the space marine codexes, that and some obvious holes in the primaris lineup make me suspect we are going to get an angels of death style codex supplement for them.
As for inceptors, I've found them most useful when deployed out of charge range, preferably while using some reivers as a screen for them. Each unit when deep struck alone is vulnerable but together they can pose quite a challenge, forcing the opponent to choose between 18 heavy bolter shots or 16 CC attacks and 5 heavy bolt pistol shots.
Mobility is the main advantage Hellblasters have, in my opinion. I tend to be running all over the board, so the static nature of Devastators is...well, devastating. The option of getting double the firepower at half range is also amazing. 15" is longer than it seems, and you'll likely be able to catch a couple units in that rapid fire range if you're facing anything other than a gunline.its hellblasters or Inceptors for plasma, as far as I'm concerned. That said, I want to try out Black Knights as plasma sources. They're pricy, but the jack of all trades thing is appealing, especially with SotR around.
-4 AP on the Hellblasters is a huge advantage over the Plasma Cannon. And mobility with no -1 to hit - opens up more target options, grab objectives. Also at a pinch 2 attacks across the unit is useful.
Helblasters also make better use of WOTDA as they can take more plasma shots. At best a unit of devs is getting 12 plasma shots (average is 8), helblasters can easily have more than that and up to 20. Now if you have a different unit making use of WOTDA, then it becomes a closer discussion as devestators are a bit cheaper.
I don’t play dark angels but I use primaris a lot. As a DA player I’d go for the units that benefit most from your CTs and stratagems. That seems to be aggressors with bolters, hellblasters (of any variety, but probably assault) and plasma inceptors.
Aggressors standing still with rerolls to hit will be really great. So will hellblasters, though you’ll sometimes have problems if they get picked on. I’d go for aggressors rather than dakka inceptors, because they’ll very rarely sit still.
Plasma inceptors are far better for DA than anyone else, thanks to WftDA. It also helps that you could have an HQ keep up with them relatively easily, since your captain doesn’t have to sit in your firebase to give all of them rerolls. Even if he can’t keep up you’ve got the option of not overcharging but still using WftDA.
The real stars of the codex seem to be dark talons. Compared to a storm talon they seem seriously under-costed. I was at a teams tournament this weekend and a guy on the winning team had 7 of them. He was undefeated at the end. These seem to be the most likely unit to make it into soup lists.
Dark angels reroll ones if they don't move, so having an HQ babysit is completely optional. That same CT is the reason you won't see many of us using the assault versions, because sitting and shooting is our jam. We would use the heavy version if it had a reason to exists, but as yet there is no convincing argument to get us off of the default plasma incinerator.
Dark angels generally play in what I like to call fortress dark angels style, where you have the hell blasters by a banner, surrounded by mooks. Add in azrael for a 4++ and you'll find dark angels firebase is a tough nut to crack. We then use ravenwing as flankers/harassment/objective getters, which are supplemented by rievers and inceptors. We generally don't go for plasma inceptors though because we can only use WFTDA once a shooting phase, and it's almost always better on hell blasters who will have some form of reroll support.
I've been experimenting with the Heavy Plasma Incinerators. The extra Strength has come in handy against vehicle targets as well as T4 MEQs. I run a Hellblaster Squad with Plasma Incinerators and a Hellblaster Squad with Heavy Plasma Incinerators. I think, though, that the standard Plasma Incinerator is indeed the better option.
p.s. In two recent games against Eldar my Hellblasters have come out on top against Howling Banshees in close combat (Azrael's 4++ helped them survive the charge of course). They also took down a Farseer in close combat. I am not saying that they should actively seek close combat, but they don't fold like most shooty units.
Today I saw a 'bubble' DA style that might interest you, guys:
- Darkshroud
- 3 Venerable Dreads with Missile Launcher and Twin Lascannons
- 1 Dreadnought with Twin Autocannon and Missile Launcher
- 2 Tactical Squads, one with Lascannon and the other with Missile Launcher
- Scout Squad with Missile Launcher
- Master
- Lieutenant
- Techmarine
They all stood close to each other, firing at the enemy and barely moving. Although the Darkshroud died in one Shooting phase, the rest dealt with the table. Plasma Inceptors and some Scions helped later.
It's not a gamestyle I'm keen on playing, but it worked
Grimgold wrote: We generally don't go for plasma inceptors though because we can only use WFTDA once a shooting phase, and it's almost always better on hell blasters who will have some form of reroll support.
But if you don't want to use Hellblasters, Plasma Inceptors become the best target for WotDA. Also, they can fire at everything in the game instead of having to walk or care about terrain. All you need is a Jump Master to give them re-roll 1s.
Grimgold wrote: . We generally don't go for plasma inceptors though because we can only use WFTDA once a shooting phase, and it's almost always better on hell blasters who will have some form of reroll support.
I disagree with this sentiment, it works better on helblasters for you because you are giving them the support. If you gave that same (or similar) support to Plasma inceptors they on average out perform Helblasters. Helblasters are more durable, but are far less good at destroying a target of your choosing due to mobility and LOS, they also get fewer shots per point.
Grimgold wrote: We generally don't go for plasma inceptors though because we can only use WFTDA once a shooting phase, and it's almost always better on hell blasters who will have some form of reroll support.
But if you don't want to use Hellblasters, Plasma Inceptors become the best target for WotDA. Also, they can fire at everything in the game instead of having to walk or care about terrain. All you need is a Jump Master to give them re-roll 1s.
Master in jump pack is 96 points with a chainsword and a master crafted boltgun, on top of the almost 200 you pay for three plasma inceptors. At 200 points plasma inceptors are already pricey for what they do, and adding another 96 points to that doesn't make the math better. They aren't going to last more than a round, so you have to get that 300 points worth damage as soon as they drop. So it's possible they can work out, I just don't think it's likely.
Grimgold wrote: . We generally don't go for plasma inceptors though because we can only use WFTDA once a shooting phase, and it's almost always better on hell blasters who will have some form of reroll support.
I disagree with this sentiment, it works better on helblasters for you because you are giving them the support. If you gave that same (or similar) support to Plasma inceptors they on average out perform Helblasters. Helblasters are more durable, but are far less good at destroying a target of your choosing due to mobility and LOS, they also get fewer shots per point.
Yeah, Azreal doesn't come in jump variety, and neither does an ancient. Without those two plasma inceptors are way too vulnerable to getting shot off the board before they can earn their points back.
Next question from the DA Noob, if you're building a small list (1000pts, and no flyers) and you don't know what you're going to be playing against, what would you choose to include to deal with either crowd control (Ork or guard) and MEQ?
MEQ can be answered by plasma - usually hellblasters. Just rip that armor save off.
Orks and other horde stuff is another matter. I'm fond of using Flamestorm Agressors, but bolter scouts perform remarkably well. 10 shots at range, 20 up close, pistols for melee backup... they'll generally kill over twice their point value in cheap stuff.
Redemptor with a heavy onslaught gatling cannon? That or bolt storm aggressors. I want to like the fire bat config of aggressors, but By the time that ork mob is close enough to flame they are also close enough to charge.
From a BA perspective, redemptors are quite useful. They are good bullet sponges, and contribute in every phase of the game. You guys even get a bonus ability relevant to the macroplasma loadout. I think they are even better for DA than BA, and I take them over my furiosos now.
Shrapnelbait wrote: Next question from the DA Noob, if you're building a small list (1000pts, and no flyers) and you don't know what you're going to be playing against, what would you choose to include to deal with either crowd control (Ork or guard) and MEQ?
The Land Speeder Characters or RW bikes can do crowd control. And yeh plasma for MEQ.
That sounds profoundly expensive for the damage output. I'd rather have Hellblasters babysat by Azrael or Inceptors. I like my vets with stormbolters and chainswords for cheap horde-mulching goodness.
The new horde mulchers are talonmasters and dark talons. You will need nothing else. They are devestatingly good at this role. I personally like my vets with all plasma guns. Just another nice alternative for weapons of the dark age. Plunk them in a razorback with twin assault cannons and maybe a worthy character, I personally like Ezekiel, and you have yourself a useful elite unit. It will fold under too much pressure but right now it's easy to put forth other priority targets your opponent might not pay as much attention to these guys.
MilkmanAl wrote: That sounds profoundly expensive for the damage output. I'd rather have Hellblasters babysat by Azrael or Inceptors. I like my vets with stormbolters and chainswords for cheap horde-mulching goodness.
That's what I thought at first, but they are only 2 pts more than equal number of Hellblasters. Slightly shorter range but comparable amount of plasma output, and 3++ save to offset the single wound compared to two. Was curious to find out if the 3++ save made them good for objective camping and stuff. The effort to dig them out of cover might be too much when presented with other juicy targets like Contemptors, Hellblasters and stuff.
It might make for a unit that can operate without being babysat by characters.
Storm shields on vets is hard to justify for me. Only weapon that ot will come in useful for is plasma. Even -1 ap weapons won't use it if you are in cover. I like shields on multiwound models likely to get hit by big guns like characters or terminators. I wish we had an option for an ogryn shield lite that would add +1 to armour saves instead.
Hey all, I've been lurking in the shadows for a long time, and am considering returning to 40k after a long "break". Former Ultramarine and Eldar player but am considering going green. I currently have the the Dark Vengeance box plus one tac squad w/ plasma gun, plasma cannon, one scout squad w 2x sniper, missle launcher, shotgun and sgt w/powerfist. I also have 5 terminators w/ 2x TH/SS, 1 LC, 1chainfist, one dread with TLLC and heavy flamer fist, one ironclad dread with hurricane bolter, one tech-marine and enough spare marines to put together a 5 man dev squadwith two missles and a plasmacannon. I do not own any of the 8th edition codecies or the index.
That is a mess of a list. I am hoping that someone here can help me to figure out how to set this up and then build a wishlist for what to purchase in the near future to help make the list better. From reading this entire tactica I can see scouts are the new black so I will aim at getting more of them.
What advice can you give on how to set up and expand?
Before you commit, I'd go check http://boards.4chan.org/tg/ and search for the 40k general thread. In the first post of the thread there should be some resources to help decision making, such as the FAQs, mathhammer worksheets, that kind of stuff. Just ignore the silliness that follows the first post.
The default force org chart of this edition has three troops and two HQ as mandatory, fortunately you have that covered with a little to spare. So the starting point is the librarian and the master, a squad of scouts, and two tac squad with plasma guns. The two extra plasma cannons will go to the dev squad.
Thanks Grimgold. Does the new codex for DA use Ironclad dreads? I was thinking of trying to convert it to a rifleman dread. Can I use the master as a counts as Azreal model due to the identical weapons load out?
MilkmanAl wrote: That sounds profoundly expensive for the damage output. I'd rather have Hellblasters babysat by Azrael or Inceptors. I like my vets with stormbolters and chainswords for cheap horde-mulching goodness.
That's what I thought at first, but they are only 2 pts more than equal number of Hellblasters. Slightly shorter range but comparable amount of plasma output, and 3++ save to offset the single wound compared to two. Was curious to find out if the 3++ save made them good for objective camping and stuff. The effort to dig them out of cover might be too much when presented with other juicy targets like Contemptors, Hellblasters and stuff.
It might make for a unit that can operate without being babysat by characters.
Shorter Range Less AP, fewer wounds. Sure you have a 3++ but shooting you with bolters or AP -1 if you are in cover. If you are taking azzy with the helblasters your 3++ does not off set the extra wound (I would argue it doesn't do so for the most part anyway. They also suffer from 5 man max squad so they are worse for WOTDA.
Look at it this way
IN cover against AP 0 and 1 Helbalsters are twice as durable. Against AP 2 helblasters are still more durable unless you are taking multiple damage wounds. IF the Helblasters have azzy then they are better against pretty much ever damage 1 weapon and pretty comparable against everything else given they same cost. I think if I were sitting them in cover somewhere I would want longer range weapons than plasma guns as well.
MilkmanAl wrote: That sounds profoundly expensive for the damage output. I'd rather have Hellblasters babysat by Azrael or Inceptors. I like my vets with stormbolters and chainswords for cheap horde-mulching goodness.
That's what I thought at first, but they are only 2 pts more than equal number of Hellblasters. Slightly shorter range but comparable amount of plasma output, and 3++ save to offset the single wound compared to two. Was curious to find out if the 3++ save made them good for objective camping and stuff. The effort to dig them out of cover might be too much when presented with other juicy targets like Contemptors, Hellblasters and stuff.
It might make for a unit that can operate without being babysat by characters.
Shorter Range Less AP, fewer wounds. Sure you have a 3++ but shooting you with bolters or AP -1 if you are in cover. If you are taking azzy with the helblasters your 3++ does not off set the extra wound (I would argue it doesn't do so for the most part anyway. They also suffer from 5 man max squad so they are worse for WOTDA.
Look at it this way
IN cover against AP 0 and 1 Helbalsters are twice as durable. Against AP 2 helblasters are still more durable unless you are taking multiple damage wounds. IF the Helblasters have azzy then they are better against pretty much ever damage 1 weapon and pretty comparable against everything else given they same cost. I think if I were sitting them in cover somewhere I would want longer range weapons than plasma guns as well.
I totally agree with this. Veterans make a great platform for storm bolters since they are a cheap weapon, but they won't last long enough in a game to warrant 18 extra points of bling (plasmagun + SS). With the storm bolters, put them in a drop pod or Razorback and go kill hordes. With 3 attacks each (because chainswords) they can even charge to finish off a unit that they shoot at. Or even charge to lock a tank or two in combat and prevent them from shooting back. Now I'm kind of wishing I had some more veterans. The ones I have are kitted out for last edition with grav guns, which I think we can all agree are terrible in 8th.
In that case, Why wouldn't you just use reivers instead of veterans? Same attacks, more wounds, and can deep strike. 200 points gets you a deep striking 20 wound blob, with 31 attacks in CC, plus another 10 pistol shots with -1 ap.
Grimgold wrote: In that case, Why wouldn't you just use reivers instead of veterans? Same attacks, more wounds, and can deep strike. 200 points gets you a deep striking 20 wound blob, with 31 attacks in CC, plus another 10 pistol shots with -1 ap.
Because Veterans are 18ppm vs 20ppm for Deepstriking Reivers (So 90p vs 100p), they can ride inside a razorback, and they have 20 stormbolter shoots vs 5 Pistol Shots. Yeah they have half the wounds, but that is not really relevant, for what you want them to do.
Extra points if you run those Company Veterans alongside a Rhino with 2-3 Company Champions and a Librarian for those sweet rerroll to hit and to wound in meele for the veterans.
EDIT: And I'll say that I have 10 Reivers, 5 with bolters and 5 with pistol+CCW. I love them, and they are very usefull, but I think their lack of special weapons, even a powersword for the sargeant, really hurts them.
If you wanted a ton of shots and good CC wouldn't you go for aggressors? 110 points gets you extra toughness, and an extra wound, with power fists, and a ton more shots. Vets seem way too delicate even by the standards of aggressors, which are the second most most delicate of the primaris.
Grimgold wrote: If you wanted a ton of shots and good CC wouldn't you go for aggressors? 110 points gets you extra toughness, and an extra wound, with power fists, and a ton more shots. Vets seem way too delicate even by the standards of aggressors, which are the second most most delicate of the primaris.
I want a good amount of cheap shots and competent CC in a movile platform that can go where I need it. And Razorbacks are very good by themselves. Agressors aren't movile, and Reivers don't fill the same tactical role for me.
To me, the deal breaker for Aggressors is their short range and slow movement. They might work okay as backline objective guards, but if you want to use them offensively you probably should put them in a Repulsor, which is a massive point sink. SB Vets, on the other hand, are able to ride in a Rhino or Razorback, and they can reach out and touch something at 24" compared to the 18" for Aggressors. And they can move a bit faster if their ride gets blown up or their target is destroyed (or moves away from them). Yes, you can advance Aggressors and still shoot them, but now you're hitting on 4's. With rerolls that's okay I suppose, but I'd still rather have the veterans. I do intend to get a set of Aggressors at some point and give them a fair trial, if for no other reason than they are very cool models.
ZergSmasher wrote: To me, the deal breaker for Aggressors is their short range and slow movement. They might work okay as backline objective guards, but if you want to use them offensively you probably should put them in a Repulsor, which is a massive point sink. SB Vets, on the other hand, are able to ride in a Rhino or Razorback, and they can reach out and touch something at 24" compared to the 18" for Aggressors. And they can move a bit faster if their ride gets blown up or their target is destroyed (or moves away from them). Yes, you can advance Aggressors and still shoot them, but now you're hitting on 4's. With rerolls that's okay I suppose, but I'd still rather have the veterans. I do intend to get a set of Aggressors at some point and give them a fair trial, if for no other reason than they are very cool models.
Unless I'm mistaken, Aggressors have Relentless advance, which negates the penalty for advancing and firing. This actually gives them a good movement (comparatively) of 5+D6 base since there is no reason not to advance every time.
Aggressor death balls (18 guys) as Raven Guard with the Ancient and Shrike win games all on their own. If they win the first tun, they massacre everything (342 shots with rerolls). If they lose the first turn they can make their ball at a safe spot. They just need some support against assault, but soup lists have plenty to choose from.
For Dark Angels they just aren’t flexible enough in the deployment and more vulnerable to alpha. It’s like night and day.
I'm not sure about 18 Agressors but they are arguably better against alpha strike in a dark angel list than in Raven Guard. Take a Dark shroud to get -1 to hit, and Azzy for a 4++ save, and they end up more durable. The place they lose out is their own potential for alpha strike, you will never get first turn double shots in dark angles.
They are reasonably mobile though with their advance and fire rule you are moving on average 8-9" per turn. To me for Dark Angles it would come down to why am I not using Sammi and dark talons as my anti-horde? But as part of an Azzy blob aggressors might be attractive.
Raven Guard Aggressors are also -1 to hit, and in cover (not difficult for infantry) the 2+ save is solid enough.
Dark Talons are amazing. Sammy and the Heavenfall Talonmaster are too. They are strong in a different way. Better vs assault and they always get their shots against the enemy regardless of terrain. On the other hand, they are actually more vulnerable to alpha, not nearly as versatile in deployment, don’t shoot quite as much as Aggressors point for point, and lastly Talons currently are in the danger zone of getting a points increase in next month’s big faq. If they stay at 160 points, forget the DA Aggressors and keep flying. Dark Talon spam is currently a meta defining list, and could be a dominating list if Dark Reapers take a hard hit from the nerf bat and Talons avoid it.
I would say Sammi and the Talonmaster are far less venerable to alpha strike than aggressors are. Being characters it is really easy to make them unable to be shot, and screens prevent charges.
Quick Questions: If you were to load a Terminator squad, what load would you go for? I am trying to go for a mixed Death/Ravenwing and trying to decide between Plasma or Assault Cannon.
Eldarsif wrote: Quick Questions: If you were to load a Terminator squad, what load would you go for? I am trying to go for a mixed Death/Ravenwing and trying to decide between Plasma or Assault Cannon.
Deathwing Knights.
Probably assault cannon to clear chaff. Put plasma on the Inceptors landing just behind your terminators, or Black Knights.
Eldarsif wrote: Quick Questions: If you were to load a Terminator squad, what load would you go for? I am trying to go for a mixed Death/Ravenwing and trying to decide between Plasma or Assault Cannon.
Depends on what's in your Ravenwing? If you have Black Knights or Plasma gun equipped Bikers, go with the Asscan. You are trying to combine unit strategy, so use one unit to fill in the holes of the other. If you have flamer and bolter bikers for the low toughness chaff, combines with storm bolters on the termies, that should clear quite a bit of T3 stuff. On the other hand if you are trying to get through a blob of Reivers, plasma is your friend.
Eldarsif wrote: Quick Questions: If you were to load a Terminator squad, what load would you go for? I am trying to go for a mixed Death/Ravenwing and trying to decide between Plasma or Assault Cannon.
Depends on what's in your Ravenwing? If you have Black Knights or Plasma gun equipped Bikers, go with the Asscan. You are trying to combine unit strategy, so use one unit to fill in the holes of the other. If you have flamer and bolter bikers for the low toughness chaff, combines with storm bolters on the termies, that should clear quite a bit of T3 stuff. On the other hand if you are trying to get through a blob of Reivers, plasma is your friend.
My Ravenwing is a mix of Black Knights and normal bikers with plasma. I am basically making an easily portable list(elite) for fun games, but at the same time trying to avoid gimping myself too much. Maybe it is my eternal desire to play mostly Deathwing and Ravenwing which is something GW will never properly balance.
The list is as follow:
Outrider detachment
* Sammael on Corvex
* 4 Ravenwing bikers with Plasma (I could technically got for another MSU Black Knights if I remove this squad, reduce the number of BK in the next unit by 1)
* 4 Black Knights
* Darkshroud
Vanguard Detachment
* Belial
* Deathwing Champion
* Deathwing Knights w. Watcher
* Deathwing Terminators w. Plasma/Assault Cannon
* Scout Squad with Bolters
* Scout Squad with Bolters
Inceptors are good with both weapon loadouts, depends on what you need.
Reivers are good in a pure Primaris army, though definitely not needed.
Hellblasters are amazing anti-tank, especially with Weapons from the Dark Age... they will be targeted though so best to have redundancy (Plasma Inceptors could do this or more Hellblasters).
The biggest thing to worry about is that you will struggle against army's that have -1 to hit them since most of your damage is coming from Plasma. Redemptors will give you some good anti-infantry, so will Inceptors with Bolters, Intercessors, and the Reivers.
ThePie wrote: Im trying to make a not terrible almost pure primaris army but i have some questions
Are inceptors any good, and plasma or bolters?
Are reivers useful? They seem kinda nice to tie up enemy shooty units.
Are hellblasters and one repulsor good enough anti tank, or is the range too short? I was looking at the xiphon interceptor, which is a cool model.
I will be cheating by using a primaris captain as azrael
I haven't used bolter inceptors but Plasma Inceptors w/Weapons of the Dark Age prety much let me pick the highest point value model on the table and wipe it off the face of the earth. 170pts that can kill twice that is fantastic
Reivers are good, but I'm not sold on their grapnel or grav-chute options. It seem easier to keep them in cover and rush up when the opponent gets close to all your shooty marines.
Hellblasters can be incredibly good anti-tank, but the repulsor has the Land-Raider problem. It's about a third of your list in point value and has a bunch of weapons that do different things. It's hard to use in practice.
As others have said, your hellblasters will get focused early and often. In a pure primaris force the only counter to that is an ancient, which lets you hit back while they are being eliminated.
A jump pack master + Plasma interceptors is 273 points, and you more or less have to make that back in one round of shooting. The odds of killing a daemon primarch are pretty low, even assuming just a 4++
(2/3 + (1/6 * 2/3)) * 2/3 * 1/2 = 7/27 * 3 (damage per shot) * 12 (average Number of shots) = 9.3 wounds is what you should expect assuming you roll average. 9.3 wounds off of Mortarion/Magnus is debatably 273 points of value. However That's not taking into account mortarion's disgustingly resilient, or magnus getting a buff to his invul save.
Hellblasters aren't anti-tank. They are midfield control units. Very powerful vs other elite lists, but terrible against gunlines which will outrange them.
9.3 wounds is what you should expect (from 3 inceptors) assuming you roll average
I doubt I'd run with fewer than 6 Inceptors because of WftDA. That's too much damage to pass up, and as you demonstrated, you need more than 3 dudes to take down the seriously tough targets.
I posted this over in the Custodes thread but figured you guys would get some mileage out of it, too. I'm trying to figure out how to make a Custodes force work well in a relatively competitive environment, and it seems like DA actually pair up fairly well with them. This is what I have so far:
Outrider
Shield Captain - auric aquilus, hurricane bolter, misericordia, superior creation (warlord), victor of the blood games - 164
Shield Captain - eagle's eye, hurricane bolter, misericordia, victor of the blood games - 164
3x3 Vertus Praetors - hurricane bolters, misericordias - 846
1174
Basically, Custodes bikes do their thing, clearing screens and bashing heads, while Sammael moves upfield. Ideally, Sammy will be in position to buff the Inceptors who'll drop in with the Lieutenant. I could just use a Master with a jump pack and another unit of scouts instead to ensure the Inceptors reroll their hits, but Sammy is pretty sweet. What do you guys think?
Yeah I suppose you could improve the cost benefit ratio by leaving the jump master out, because if they blow up, well you expected them to die the next turn anyway. They would function like the grav devs in a skyhammer annihilation force back in 7th ed, drop to squish the biggest bad they have and then forget about them because they are going to die.
However we don't have as many good targets for a suicide squad of six dudes, Magnus and Mortarion are more or less it, all of the rest of the superheavies aren't very threatening. So I don't know if a six man plasma inceptor squad has a place in a TAC list.
Well, with everything splitting fire, they can gun down a couple vehicles or even heavy infantry as necessary. They'll be priority 1 once they drop, but I wouldn't quite call them a suicide squad. With a bunch of Custodes bikes rocketing up the field, you'll have the opportunity to tie up or just kill a fair amount of whatever might threaten them. 400pts of guys isn't too large an amount to keep off the table for a turn if you need to put your hurricane bolters to work for a round to clear up a landing zone and essentially ensure that your bikes will be getting into combat the turn your Inceptors come down.
I ran a list over the weekend with 6 Plasma Inceptors and 15 Hellblasters. It did very well. The Inceptors dropped in with a Master, Erased an enemy flyer with leftover shots, and because I dropped them in cover ate a lot of the fire that would have otherwise gone at my Primaris force marching up the middle. Azrael, Lieutenant, Dark Shroud, and 3 5-man Hellblaster squads made up my center, and they erased everything that got within range. I had scouts that blocked off landing zones for my Inceptors and then a small Black Knight unit (6-man) with a Talonmaster that flanked and distracted.
I was playing Ultramarines, but no Roboute. His Hellblasters and Predators didn't do enough fast enough to stop me before I was on him and mopping up. The game was over on turn 3 and my opponent conceded.
Captain Garius wrote: I ran a list over the weekend with 6 Plasma Inceptors and 15 Hellblasters. It did very well. The Inceptors dropped in with a Master, Erased an enemy flyer with leftover shots, and because I dropped them in cover ate a lot of the fire that would have otherwise gone at my Primaris force marching up the middle. Azrael, Lieutenant, Dark Shroud, and 3 5-man Hellblaster squads made up my center, and they erased everything that got within range. I had scouts that blocked off landing zones for my Inceptors and then a small Black Knight unit (6-man) with a Talonmaster that flanked and distracted.
I was playing Ultramarines, but no Roboute. His Hellblasters and Predators didn't do enough fast enough to stop me before I was on him and mopping up. The game was over on turn 3 and my opponent conceded.
what army were you up against?
It seems to me that DA infantry gunline will struggle against horde armies like nids or orks
Also, do you think running inceptors is better with a jumpack capitain and a leutenant to maximize kill potential or is that too much points for a suicide squad?
Currently i'm working on a similar list, seems to perform pretty well against space marines
Shrapnelbait wrote: I haven't heard much in the way of using Predators for Dark Angels. Are they very useful for us?
They’re still good, but they don’t benefit from Grim Resolve so if you want lascannons Devastators are more accurate, and if you want Dakka Sammael or the Talonmaster are far superior. I have been toying with the idea of swapping my 10 man Dev squad with lascannons out for a Predator because it’s cheaper and may help a little with vehicle saturation, but I haven’t put it on the table yet. The Devs have been pretty good for me, but they tend to get shot up fast. On more than one occasion they have died without firing a shot, . The Predator is more mobile and can hide if needed, and it may draw some heat off my Rhino and Razorbacks which also tend to eat a lot of bullets early.
Strategems: Not talking about the obvious ones like wotda, but how many of them do you use in your games? Do people use Cluster Mines, Stasis Shells, Flack Missiles, or Hellfire Rounds to do mortal wounds to targets?
