ZergSmasher wrote: Inceptors by a country mile. The ability to hide in reserves is crucial for an expensive unit like that. Black Knights can try to hide out of LOS, but often that means they won't be doing anything interesting on the first turn anyway. Plus, the firepower doesn't even compare between the two. Black Knights really don't want to be in CC either, although they are admittedly better if they end up in that situation. But surviving Inceptors can fall back and shoot without having to spend 2 CP on Intractable.
+1. Inceptors are absolutely the best source of plasma that Dark Angels have.
Black Knights get the stratagems like Speed of the Raven. So when they survive they can do a lot more than inceptors. But in my experience they are your opponent's first target and a darkshroud isn't enough to protect them if you go second and can't Jink. Maybe Prepared Positions helps, but the safest place for your plasma is not on the table at all. So advantage to inceptors.
Chapter Approved may tip this balance so don't buy anything for another week or two!
I'm planning on running an azrael deathball, with 10 hellblasters, 6 aggressors, supported by a LT, a darkshroud, and an ancient. My thought is to take the middle with azrael and crew, split off my screens when I can, and use a fast strike force with a Talonmaster and either black knights or incpetors to hit targets not in range of the central deathball.
My concern with inceptors is them getting zoned out from valuable targets. It really doesn't take many units to make vast swathes of the board inaccessible, and they have a round to get their area denial setup before I can even try. Black knights can move 20" from round one, still fire and charge, and keeping them from targets requires a lot more effort.
Not to say I don't think deep strike is valuable, I use reivers for deployable screens, to run up and bad touch vehicles, or land on objectives. If the reivers end up getting zoned out not doing much I didn't spend that much on them. But I really need my mobile force to work, and between the talon master and whichever flavor of fast plasma I chose, it's a chunk of points.
What's people's opinion on Deathwing as a support detachment in a non-competitive army?
My friends and I are doing the Vigilus campaign, so we're all using our fluffy armies to have some fun. I was thinking about taking a Vanguard detachment of DW. What are thoughts on a 750 point force?
Servitors went up because they don't pay for servo arm anymore?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also thank you much for that summary of changes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now might be a good time to make a new Dark Angels thread for 2019? Post your updated unit reviews etc and I'll put them into new OP.
very exciting changed indeed! my normal list picked up at least 130 points just from guesstimating. Seems like most armies got a bit of a points decrease though, so curious how these changes will pan out.
Here's hoping the Vigilus content brings some more love to the first.
Wooooh 5 DW Knights went from 250 to 185 pts ! And their accompanying Interrogator-Chaplain in Terminator is 25 pts cheaper too !
Also, playing Tartaros is even more advantageous than regular Terminators because they're the same cost, have 6" move, can now have a free Grenade harness and the Reaper autocannon is now 10 pts against the Assault cannon's 22 pts.
My (very preliminary) takeaways from these leaks:
The good:
Dreadnoughts (all varieties): These were already not terrible, but not good enough to make the top tier lists, but now I think a dread-heavy list could really do some work. Probably still have to have the right stuff supporting them though, and apparently they forgot about the poor FW Mortis Dreadnought.
Deathwing: Kind of a mixed bag. Regular termie squads are still subpar, I think, but might be okay in the right list. Deathwing Knights are the big winners here, with the unit themselves going way down, their shields going down, and their preferred transport (Land Raiders) and buddies (Interrogator-chappys) also getting nice points drops. The Deathwing Party Bus (LR Crusader, DW Knights, Asmodai, DW Ancient) probably got around 150-200 points cheaper. Probably still too much of an "eggs in one basket" trick to work in highly competitive lists, but at least it is better. Funnily enough, Tartaros termies are probably better than their standard cousins for the reasons Aaranis noted above.
Veterans: These used to be too expensive when kitted out with special/combi weapons; now they might have a place in lists, especially with Drop Pods getting a price drop. Storm Bolters will probably still be the way to go as a nice little anti-horde unit. At 80 with 5 SBs, they make a cheaper alternative to Aggressors.
Ravenwing: Between the special weapons becoming slightly cheaper and the bikes themselves going down in cost, I think they might be reasonably playable now. Black Knights are the big winners here, going down by 8 points a pop. which adds up when you are running a 6-model unit. Might actually make them a viable alternative to Plasma Inceptors. Scout bikes are probably still better even though they now cost the same as naked Ravenwing, but Ravenwing have a niche (fast special weapons) that they can fill. Time will tell if they are worth it.
Vehicles: Land Speeders went down, but are probably still not good enough. Might need playtesting to confirm this, though. The Stalker, Hunter and Whirlwind all got decent drops too. The big winners here are the Land Raiders and the Repulsor, which all got significantly cheaper. The FW Sicarans got good drops too, at least certain variants.
The bad (or at least disappointing):
Non-Primaris Marines: Tacticals are still 13 points? Really GW? Same with Assault Marines, although their jump packs got a point cheaper, so there's that (insert golf clap here). Yes, the special and heavy weapons got cheaper, but that's not enough to get Tactical Marines on the table. Devastators, at least, got some improvement with the heavy weapon point drops.
Land Speeder Vengeance: Apparently GW thought these were already good enough. News flash: they aren't.
The flyers: Nephilim Jetfighter is still stuck playing second fiddle to the Dark Talon, although at least the Lascannons got cheaper. Dark Talons are still awesome, so I didn't actually expect any changes (honestly I'm just glad they missed the nerf bat this time!). Stormravens are still a little expensive, but at least their weapons got cheaper, so maybe they'll have a role. Xiphon Interceptors actually went up in points, but I'm not sure what they are armed with so maybe with the weapon points drops they stayed the same?
Just my 2 cents from reading the changes. We'll just have to see how the meta shifts (a lot will depend on what happened to other armies besides ours).
We're also lacking point cost reductions on terminator characters to go with these terminators units changes.
Post CA, dw ancient/champion cost more than terminator masters/librarians... Not sure I agree with this.
Choose a detachment with the Dark Angels keyword and all Ravenwing-keyworded models there will get a new Keyword, Attack Squadron The new Warlord Trait lets your Warlord to always attack first (with the Field Commander Stratagem - a generic 1CP Stratagem that everyone that used a Specialized Detachment has access - you could give the Warlord Trait to Ravenwing Champion without making him your Warlord)
The new Relic is a Relic Blade with +1 to Wound vs Monsters/Vehicles
The 2CP Stratagem lets an Attack Squadron unit in the Fight Phase to either Move + Advance (if no enemy unit is within 1") or Fall Back (if there is an enemy unit within 1") - both after having already fought (it doesn't say End of Fight Phase, so I guess you might use it before the enemy unit has fought - if your unit has Charged or isn't fighting something that always fight first, after all...)
The 1CP Stratagem gives +1 to hit to ALL Attack Squadron units against a single target after an Attack Squadron unit has at least caused a Wound in that same target (it's basically the same thing the 7e formation gave, but having to Wound instead of only to Hit)
Guys this Ravenwing detachment is _bonkers_. +1 to hit means no Gets Hot. Falling back after fighting in the Fight phase makes White Scars look like chumps. Combined with the big points drops for Black Knights, I think we'll see this on tables. They still die to shooting tho...
I'm loving the Specialist Detachment. Going to chew through CP even faster, but hopefully it'll be worth it.
Question. Will models on land speeders -- Dark Shroud, Talonmaster, Sammy on Sableclaw -- get a points decrease because they're on them or no? I'm assuming no since they weren't called out explicitly, but that would be at least 60 more points, which would be awesome.
Yes to the Ravenwing detachment, and instead of taking scouts, I'm seriously thinking about adding a Deathwatch battalion for CPs. They are pretty solid now too. One of the only "regular" marine lists that got massive boosts.
I find it extremely odd that our death/ravenwing characters didn't get reductions to match. I see very little pointsin taking ancients or apothecaries now
Deathwing ancient is still good as hell. His storm shield dropped 5 points. I wouldn't take apothecary unless you have 1500+ points of stuff for him to heal every turn.
bullyboy wrote: Yes to the Ravenwing detachment, and instead of taking scouts, I'm seriously thinking about adding a Deathwatch battalion for CPs. They are pretty solid now too. One of the only "regular" marine lists that got massive boosts.
I was actually doing a lot of this before CA dropped, and it was working decently even then. It'd be very, very strong now, so I can theoretically recommend it, though I've been too excited at the idea of bringing RW and DW back out to see what the new DA/DW joint force would look like now. Generally, though, the 2 point storm shield price is a tremendous boost for them, maybe even a little bit too much of one. And it wasn't their only buff!
PS - I still can't believe that Watch Captain Artemis didn't get a points drop, that's a bizarre and indefensible choice for GW. It's not one that actually matters for balance, as it isn't like DW desperately needs access to him or anything. But that last part is why it's so weird that he didn't get a drop. He's not even that great! He's just a captain with some interesting but extremely situational abilities!
As expected, the points changes are hit and miss. GW isn't doing this as comprehensively as I'd like. For example, combat shields are now twice the cost of storm shields.
Let's avoid doom and gloom though. Are missile launchers ok at their new price, or are they still something to avoid?
I can't wait to try out an all DW list at my next friendly game. Looks like I'm going to be adding an entire unit and may still have some points spare.
Zustiur wrote: As expected, the points changes are hit and miss. GW isn't doing this as comprehensively as I'd like. For example, combat shields are now twice the cost of storm shields.
Let's avoid doom and gloom though. Are missile launchers ok at their new price, or are they still something to avoid?
I can't wait to try out an all DW list at my next friendly game. Looks like I'm going to be adding an entire unit and may still have some points spare.
If your meta is filled with Fly stuff (not only flyers, but Xenos land vehicles, jump pack units, jetbikes, etc), MLdevs + armorium cherub + flakk missile strat is a must (this alone might kill an exposed smashcaptain). Also, a lack of T8 stuff (knights, land raiders, etc) would also advocate the use of ML instead of LC
Automatically Appended Next Post: Did a quick mathhammer here and, if I'm not mistaken, the new relic is better than Heavenfall Blade vs monsters/vehicles. Not that it'll kill Knights left and right, but every bit of help, well, helps
The difference between them is not even of 1 entire unsaved wound, though
I think the best part of the relic is that you can give it to one Talonmaster and give the Heavenfall blade to a second one
Automatically Appended Next Post: Are the points drops in landspeeders and the associated weapons enough to justify taking a squadron of them? Or is it still better to just take more talonmasters?
Vector Strike wrote: Fellas, could you tell me if this stratagem works with any Whirlwind-keyworded unit or just the one in the codex?
I like where your head is at, I wondered about the same combo! My read is the same as the above responses. Given that they actually sold a FW bundle in 2017 for this exact strat, though, I think it might just be an oversight of wording? I still might try this out with a regular whirlwind.
abyrn wrote: I think the best part of the relic is that you can give it to one Talonmaster and give the Heavenfall blade to a second one
Automatically Appended Next Post: Are the points drops in landspeeders and the associated weapons enough to justify taking a squadron of them? Or is it still better to just take more talonmasters?
The drops for regular speeders and weapons is enough to push it over the edge for me, at least to try it out so I can see how it comares. I think that the many, many different configurations you can kit them out with gives them a lot of flexibility and utility. I'm currently exploring ways to bring along at least 2 very different squads. Honestly, though, even if regular speeders turn out to be better in the long run, you're not really going to hurt yourself too much in the short-term if you bring 3 talonmasters instead for just a tiny bit of dakka, maybe a very modest sword here and there.
Won a stalker at a GT, what's the general consensus on them? I want to like it because of the 6 autocannon shots and looking kind of cool. With azrael (and what DA player isn't running him) I think they could even be decent at ground targets, at 109 points seems like a lot of dakka on a pretty durable platform.
Those autocannons do get cheaper in Chapter Approved, but still consider selling it on eBay unless you're really trying to make vehicles work. All Space Marine vehicles are in a bad place still.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (except maybe Land Raiders)
Sadly they don't get cheaper, they are icarus storm autocannons (heavy 3), instead of just normal icarus autocannons (heavy 2). I guess I'll just keep it and goof off with it then, has that 5th ed vibe in the way it looks, like someone left a bored tech marine alone with a rhino for too long, and the word heretek gets whispered in the halls now.
*edit* Nevermind I'm wrong, 95 points now, you know i've made worse decisions in list building
Hi All!
After CA 2018 I’m thinking about to (re-)use DWK’s because of the point sink.
My Idea actual is:
9 DWK
1 DW Ancient
1 TDA Libby with the re-roll hit and wound spell.
Should be around 500pts for this package.
My concern is actual how to bring them into the battle. Should I deep strike them or ride with an LRC?
Maxamato wrote: Hi All!
After CA 2018 I’m thinking about to (re-)use DWK’s because of the point sink.
My Idea actual is:
9 DWK
1 DW Ancient
1 TDA Libby with the re-roll hit and wound spell.
Should be around 500pts for this package.
My concern is actual how to bring them into the battle. Should I deep strike them or ride with an LRC?
Would do you think?
To make deep strike work, you'd need a warlord guy with master of maneuver, and even that would make you successfully charge at 47%. I'd rather spend the points in a LRC (which is also cheaper now - not even 270p with base gear). However, I don't think a LRC can hold them all... 16 slots = 8 termies total. You'd have to ditch 3 DWKs
IF you make your librarian your warlord and pick the "reroll charge" trait, it's kinda ok to deep strike them (you either reroll both dice with the trait or use a CP to reroll only one).
Otherwise I wouldn't since if you miss the charge you're screwed with move 5.
Also 9 might be overkill, depends what you're planning to smash though
abyrn wrote: Did the Dark Talon actually go down in points? Is it not still 180+20 for wargear?
Ravenwing and Deathwing got a lot better though.
Still the same (over)price AFAIK but nobody has bothered to confirm.
Dark Talon is not overpriced, it was broken before the spring FAQ bumped it up. It is still crazy good. I'm frankly just glad it didn't get another price bump in CA2018.
Guys, I've been thinking about the stratagem The Lion and the Wolf. Now with the Space Wolves codex released and CA2018 points reductions, this might be a funny Furrylord for us:
Wolf Lord (117)
- Jump Pack
- Thunder Hammer
- Storm Shield
- The Wulfen Stone (relic)
With the stratagem, this little fella will make 6 attacks at WS2+ S10 AP-3 D3, re-rolling 1s. Althought it doesn't have the re-roll charges + no overwatch relic (the latter easily mitigated by terrain) nor a D4 Thunder hammer, it does a better job than the Slamguinius, damage-wise.
Now, to bring him to the field: I'm thinking either a Patrol detach with Grey Hunters (cheaper, at 182p all) or a Vanguard detach with 3x Wolf Scouts (more expensive at 282p minimum, but with 3 units that can enter through the enemy's backfield and bring a plasma/meltagun per squad - increasing the total price to 315p for plasmaguns) and getting the 1 CP back.
What say you?
Edit: forgot the 3d6 blood angel strat to charge...
Vector Strike wrote: Guys, I've been thinking about the stratagem The Lion and the Wolf. Now with the Space Wolves codex released and CA2018 points reductions, this might be a funny Furrylord for us:
Wolf Lord (117)
- Jump Pack
- Thunder Hammer
- Storm Shield
- The Wulfen Stone (relic)
With the stratagem, this little fella will make 6 attacks at WS2+ S10 AP-3 D3, re-rolling 1s. Althought it doesn't have the re-roll charges + no overwatch relic (the latter easily mitigated by terrain) nor a D4 Thunder hammer, it does a better job than the Slamguinius, damage-wise.
Now, to bring him to the field: I'm thinking either a Patrol detach with Grey Hunters (cheaper, at 182p all) or a Vanguard detach with 3x Wolf Scouts (more expensive at 282p minimum, but with 3 units that can enter through the enemy's backfield and bring a plasma/meltagun per squad - increasing the total price to 315p for plasmaguns) and getting the 1 CP back.
What say you?
Edit: forgot the 3d6 blood angel strat to charge...
Could be fun. Yes the Blood Angel reliability of the charge after deepstrike is huge. Plus the strat to give them D3 extra attacks may make them get better damage output. Still the Wolf Lord will def get work done.
For the wolf stuff though - maybe 3x Long Fangs? Long Range firepower that ignores negs to hit (I think that is their special rule?). Only because I feel like a lot of good DA stuff needs to get in close range to be most efficient. Would be nice to have some long range support. Much more pricier though. Chuck in a rune priest (?) for the intercept strat.
Could be fun. Yes the Blood Angel reliability of the charge after deepstrike is huge. Plus the strat to give them D3 extra attacks may make them get better damage output. Still the Wolf Lord will def get work done.
For the wolf stuff though - maybe 3x Long Fangs? Long Range firepower that ignores negs to hit (I think that is their special rule?). Only because I feel like a lot of good DA stuff needs to get in close range to be most efficient. Would be nice to have some long range support. Much more pricier though. Chuck in a rune priest (?) for the intercept strat.
Ugh, another strat I've forgotten. Yeah, in this prism I'd rather bring the Slamguinius + 3 scouts. The Wolf Lord at least saves more CP
Long fangs alone, with missile launchers, would cost closer to 600p. At this point the flea infestation in my list would be too much
Long Fangs don't natively ignore hit penalties, or they'd be better Dark Reapers. They can use a stratagem to do so, but only 1 unit per phase could use it. So diminishing returns on multiple units. As far as how to ally in a Wolf Lord, I'd say maybe take a Supreme Command with 2 of them and a Rune Priest. Rune Priest takes the Fury of the Wolf Spirits and the -1 to hit power, and you should also have a DA libby with Aversion in there as well, to either stack -1s to hit or put it on multiple enemies. One Wolf Lord could benefit from The Lion and the Wolf and take the Wulfen Stone, while the other could perhaps take the Armor of Russ to make an enemy swing last in combat. Could add some pretty solid melee potential to a DA list, without being as CP intensive as bringing the Blood Angels guy.
So, anyone know why none of our characters got an adjustment in points in CA? Seems really odd with the changes to Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Custodes and Space Marine characters.
Most of our characters were already solid at their current costs. Azrael is still amazing value at 180, for example. A lot of the characters that got price cuts were overcosted before.
ZergSmasher wrote: Most of our characters were already solid at their current costs. Azrael is still amazing value at 180, for example. A lot of the characters that got price cuts were overcosted before.
I agree with Azrael, but I feel that Belial, Sammael on Corvex and Asmodai are a little overpriced when you compare to other characters new prices.
ZergSmasher wrote: Most of our characters were already solid at their current costs. Azrael is still amazing value at 180, for example. A lot of the characters that got price cuts were overcosted before.
I agree with Azrael, but I feel that Belial, Sammael on Corvex and Asmodai are a little overpriced when you compare to other characters new prices.
Asmodai in a Land Raider with terminators makes them twice as good. You're both right about the others.
SGHarker wrote: How do you interpret the swift strike stratagem - can it be used in your opponents fight phase? This will of course open up for a lot of tricks !?
It absolutely says in "the" Fight Phase, not "your" Fight Phase so yes. This makes the Warlord Trait much better since he can fight second without paying 2CPs to interrupt, then break off using the strategem.
SGHarker wrote: How do you interpret the swift strike stratagem - can it be used in your opponents fight phase? This will of course open up for a lot of tricks !?
It absolutely says in "the" Fight Phase, not "your" Fight Phase so yes. This makes the Warlord Trait much better since he can fight second without paying 2CPs to interrupt, then break off using the strategem.
SGHarker wrote: How do you interpret the swift strike stratagem - can it be used in your opponents fight phase? This will of course open up for a lot of tricks !?
It absolutely says in "the" Fight Phase, not "your" Fight Phase so yes. This makes the Warlord Trait much better since he can fight second without paying 2CPs to interrupt, then break off using the strategem.
you mean first, right?
nah, second because you have to assume you get charged somewhere, so it would be opponent chooses charger, then your Warlord goes (without having to pay 2CP), then pay 2CP and break off.
So it only comes in to play if your opponent has charged you with several units. Surely he will pick who ever charged your warlord as his first combat.
SGHarker wrote: So it only comes in to play if your opponent has charged you with several units. Surely he will pick who ever charged your warlord as his first combat.
it's situational, sure, but you may be willing to pay 2CP elsewhere to interrupt so he has to pick the right target. I could have Black Knights in combat, pay 2CP, interrupt, then 2CP to get out of dodge. That's a lot of CP mind you. I just need to play around with it a little to see how it pans out. he may also have several units in with your warlord, but will only get to use one.
In CA2018 assault cannons and twins have only pts changes in the Space Marine and Grey Knight sections so does that mean we go back to using the Codex costs for our assault cannons as they arent in our section of CA? The same issue is with Blood Angels and Space Wolves they no longer have the CA pts cost for assault cannons. I assume this is because standard Codex Marines have access to Guilliman where as we dont?
Which is kind of unfair to non ultramarine players.
IGNORE THAT, OUR CODEXES HAVE THE SAME PTS COST AS THE CA MOMENT! Brainfart haha!!!!
OK, so drop pod is still pants right, but what about some plasma vets? A vet with plasmagun or combi-plasma and stormshield is now 27pts compared to 34pts it was previously. Not sure what else I'd put in the pod (probably a 5 man tac sqd actually, not because they are good, but just because the new CA missions wants Troop units on the ground). It's always good to have some units that can cover the board to increase mobility (although our Ravenwing bikes have improved for this too)
Per the rules of the specialist detachment, there is no reason you couldn't.
The only condition to use it is for your army to be battle forged.
Then you select a detachment and every primaris from this detachment listed in the stratagem gains <indomitus crusaders>, no keyword needed.
The Stratagem that allows that specialist detachment says you ahve to pick a Space Marines detachment. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Space Wolves or Grey Knights don't have Space Marines Detachments. Thus, they can't use that new one
Vector Strike wrote: The Stratagem that allows that specialist detachment says you ahve to pick a Space Marines detachment. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Space Wolves or Grey Knights don't have Space Marines Detachments. Thus, they can't use that new one
I've been tooling with my Ravenwing list a bit since CA and Vigilus and hoping to get some thoughts. I used to run 10 CP (1 Battalion, 1 Airwing, and 1 Outrider) across 12 drops. This basically worked out to:
3 dark talons
Talonmaster, Sammael on Sableclaw
3 squads of scouts, 2 heavy bolters
Librarian on a bike
12 black knights (two squads of 6)
1 Dark shroud
It was a decent list but CP got chewed up pretty fast and the lack of troops really hurt for getting to objectives and gaining points. The librarian is awesome for casting Aversion/Mind Wipe to almost act like another Dark Shroud. I would attempt to get one or both of those off on big targets I know I won't be able to kill that turn, and then focus the rest of my army on taking out something else in the mean time. Plus smite is nice and the ability to deny psychic tests is awesome.
What i've been thinking is something like 2 Battalions and 1 Airwing for 14 CP but around 15 drops. Roughly worked out to:
3 dark talons
2 librarians on jump packs
30 scouts, 2 heavy bolters
Talonmaster, Sammael on Sableclaw
7 black knights (one big-ish blob)
1 Dark shroud
A little more CP and twice as many troops. The downside is that I lose 5 black knights (and a lot of heavy fire power) in the process.
Long story short: I've yet to try this out, but would it be absolute madness to ditch the Dark Shroud in this second list so I can add more Black Knights?
In my head having the two librarians running around casting aversion/mind wipe almost act like a poor man's dark shroud (almost) and I think this list just lacks a bit of heavy punch. Plus having one giant blob of black knights is a bit of a target and once they're gone i'm kind of stuck.
Of course...I could pop in an IG battalion, rework some things and end up keeping a Dark Shroud and most of this list. Just prefer to keep it mono build :/
I have a tournament coming up next year and was wondering if you guys could help out.
its 1k doubles, I am taking the dankest of all angels and my buddy is taking blood angels.
Each datasheet can only be taken twice per army unless its a troop choice.
So any advice tips etc. would be much appreciated
It's a good pairing - your Dark Angels can be the anvil while his Blood Angels are the hammer.
At 1K you could have an Azrael-led Battalion with a decent Hellblaster squad and maybe some Aggressors. A Lieutenant and three Scout Scouts would round you out, and you could even squeeze in a Devastator Squad.
I have a tournament coming up next year and was wondering if you guys could help out.
its 1k doubles, I am taking the dankest of all angels and my buddy is taking blood angels.
Each datasheet can only be taken twice per army unless its a troop choice.
So any advice tips etc. would be much appreciated
It's a good pairing - your Dark Angels can be the anvil while his Blood Angels are the hammer.
At 1K you could have an Azrael-led Battalion with a decent Hellblaster squad and maybe some Aggressors. A Lieutenant and three Scout Scouts would round you out, and you could even squeeze in a Devastator Squad.
Im going to test this out
Ezekiel: mind word, aversion, mind wipe
Primaris LT: Heavenfall blade, master stratigest
Vector Strike wrote: The Stratagem that allows that specialist detachment says you ahve to pick a Space Marines detachment. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Space Wolves or Grey Knights don't have Space Marines Detachments. Thus, they can't use that new one
Detachment faction is determined by the most specific shared faction keyword, and since space marine is not a valid faction keyword (the keyword is adeptus astartes), your logic says no one could use it. I think it's pretty obvious they meant it for it to be used by adeptus astartes detachments, in which case would apply to all of the chapters you mentioned. It could be that the intention was to only include chapters using chapter tactics from the Space marines codex, in which case they would specify detachments with the adeptus astartes keyword using chapter tactics found in the codex space marines. However since nearly every loyalist founding chapter or one of its successors participated in the Indomitus crusade, there is no canonical reason to exclude them.
As it is, it's another editing fail, kind of like the orks super heavy detachment, which requires almost 3000 points to use. I'd expect an errata in the coming days to settle this and other questions raised by poor editing.
Vector Strike wrote: The Stratagem that allows that specialist detachment says you ahve to pick a Space Marines detachment. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Space Wolves or Grey Knights don't have Space Marines Detachments. Thus, they can't use that new one
Detachment faction is determined by the most specific shared faction keyword, and since space marine is not a valid faction keyword (the keyword is adeptus astartes), your logic says no one could use it. I think it's pretty obvious they meant it for it to be used by adeptus astartes detachments, in which case would apply to all of the chapters you mentioned. It could be that the intention was to only include chapters using chapter tactics from the Space marines codex, in which case they would specify detachments with the adeptus astartes keyword using chapter tactics found in the codex space marines. However since nearly every loyalist founding chapter or one of its successors participated in the Indomitus crusade, there is no canonical reason to exclude them.
As it is, it's another editing fail, kind of like the orks super heavy detachment, which requires almost 3000 points to use. I'd expect an errata in the coming days to settle this and other questions raised by poor editing.
I really hope your interpretation is the same of GW's, because right now I have no reason whatsoever to use Intercessors... but most people I've seen discussing this say that it applies only for SM detachs. I'd like a better clarification from GW to put an end on this matter
To be fair, I don't think we are missing out on much even if they don't let us take it. All three of the bolter stratagems are a minimum 3 CP investment, and the returns vary pretty wildly. I wanted to like the stalker bolt rifle one, but it ends up being only 2.7 wounds against a target with a 4++, and 3.24 against targets without an invul, assuming toughness 4 and a 3+ save. The bolt rifle one seems the best of the bunch, rapid fire 2 is a straight doubling of their damage done, but intercessors aren't exactly a unit we lean on for damage. The assault bolter one is flat inferior to the bolt rifle one since 4 shots hitting 2/3 of the time is better in almost every case than 2 shots that auto hit, especially since the bolt rifle one will have extra range and AP.
turmoil wrote: I've been tooling with my Ravenwing list a bit since CA and Vigilus and hoping to get some thoughts. I used to run 10 CP (1 Battalion, 1 Airwing, and 1 Outrider) across 12 drops. This basically worked out to:
3 dark talons
Talonmaster, Sammael on Sableclaw
3 squads of scouts, 2 heavy bolters
Librarian on a bike
12 black knights (two squads of 6)
1 Dark shroud
It was a decent list but CP got chewed up pretty fast and the lack of troops really hurt for getting to objectives and gaining points. The librarian is awesome for casting Aversion/Mind Wipe to almost act like another Dark Shroud. I would attempt to get one or both of those off on big targets I know I won't be able to kill that turn, and then focus the rest of my army on taking out something else in the mean time. Plus smite is nice and the ability to deny psychic tests is awesome.
What i've been thinking is something like 2 Battalions and 1 Airwing for 14 CP but around 15 drops. Roughly worked out to:
3 dark talons
2 librarians on jump packs
30 scouts, 2 heavy bolters
Talonmaster, Sammael on Sableclaw
7 black knights (one big-ish blob)
1 Dark shroud
A little more CP and twice as many troops. The downside is that I lose 5 black knights (and a lot of heavy fire power) in the process.
Long story short: I've yet to try this out, but would it be absolute madness to ditch the Dark Shroud in this second list so I can add more Black Knights?
In my head having the two librarians running around casting aversion/mind wipe almost act like a poor man's dark shroud (almost) and I think this list just lacks a bit of heavy punch. Plus having one giant blob of black knights is a bit of a target and once they're gone i'm kind of stuck.
Of course...I could pop in an IG battalion, rework some things and end up keeping a Dark Shroud and most of this list. Just prefer to keep it mono build :/
Do you usually play ITC or standard? If you don't play ITC then the number of drops is now no longer a parameter. In the new missions the armies are deployed all at once.
Spoletta wrote: Do you usually play ITC or standard? If you don't play ITC then the number of drops is now no longer a parameter. In the new missions the armies are deployed all at once.
At the moment, mostly standard missions. I haven't played the new ones in CA though, but that does sound pretty nice. I am looking into playing some events/ITC missions soon though.
Vector Strike wrote:I really hope your interpretation is the same of GW's, because right now I have no reason whatsoever to use Intercessors... but most people I've seen discussing this say that it applies only for SM detachs. I'd like a better clarification from GW to put an end on this matter
Well, Dark Angels don't have any Space Marine stratagems - only Dark Angels stratagems. I think it's pretty clear that this is unusable on anything but Codex Marines at this time.
Grimgold wrote:To be fair, I don't think we are missing out on much even if they don't let us take it. All three of the bolter stratagems are a minimum 3 CP investment, and the returns vary pretty wildly. I wanted to like the stalker bolt rifle one, but it ends up being only 2.7 wounds against a target with a 4++, and 3.24 against targets without an invul, assuming toughness 4 and a 3+ save. The bolt rifle one seems the best of the bunch, rapid fire 2 is a straight doubling of their damage done, but intercessors aren't exactly a unit we lean on for damage. The assault bolter one is flat inferior to the bolt rifle one since 4 shots hitting 2/3 of the time is better in almost every case than 2 shots that auto hit, especially since the bolt rifle one will have extra range and AP.
There's situational uses for all 3, and the unlock is done pregame based on the opponent, not in the list building phase, so it's smart not to lean too heavily on them early anyway. It also gives codex marines something other than hellfire, flakk, command rerolls, and situational uses of WotA to spend CP on. As for DA, BA, DW, SW...all the special marines have strats usually worth spending points on.
What i've been thinking is something like 2 Battalions and 1 Airwing for 14 CP but around 15 drops. Roughly worked out to:
3 dark talons
2 librarians on jump packs
30 scouts, 2 heavy bolters
Talonmaster, Sammael on Sableclaw
7 black knights (one big-ish blob)
1 Dark shroud
A little more CP and twice as many troops. The downside is that I lose 5 black knights (and a lot of heavy fire power) in the process.
Long story short: I've yet to try this out, but would it be absolute madness to ditch the Dark Shroud in this second list so I can add more Black Knights?
In my head having the two librarians running around casting aversion/mind wipe almost act like a poor man's dark shroud (almost) and I think this list just lacks a bit of heavy punch. Plus having one giant blob of black knights is a bit of a target and once they're gone i'm kind of stuck.
I can't speak for the Dark Talons because I have none, but when I look at this list, I see one unit (black knights) which will vaporize on turn 1. I played in a tournament in November with 10 black knights. Even with the protection of Azrael (or jink) and a Dark Shroud, they vanished on turn 1 almost every game. When they didn't vanish completely they were already severely depleted. As a result, when I look at your list, I see no anti tank that will be present from turns 2-7. Again, I can't speak for the dark talons, I know they have the rift cannon but I'm just not familiar enough with its output.
I also don't have much faith in scouts surviving, though I guess with 30 of them, at least some will survive due to being such low priority kills (from a purely threat perspective).
Zustiur wrote: I played in a tournament in November with 10 black knights. Even with the protection of Azrael (or jink) and a Dark Shroud, they vanished on turn 1 almost every game. When they didn't vanish completely they were already severely depleted.
This is my experience as well. They're now so cheap maybe they're still workable in large numbers? If they survive to turn 2 they can win you the game by themselves, but that's a big IF.
I don't know how to make Black Knights work, but my plasma Inceptors work for me more consistently.
Same experience with me for the Black Knights. I think I'd rather run 2x5 or 2x6 just to have one unit possibly survive. You pretty much have to find something tastier to put in the front window.
So I tested out my list and it seems to lack a bit of oomf, it was fairly ok at supporting my Blood angels mate but eventually he got overwhemed at i simply could not put enough damage on the enemy leman russ tanks.
Any suggestions on changes would be great, its a doubles tournament and I am trying to make a strong supporting force.
Formosa wrote: So I tested out my list and it seems to lack a bit of oomf, it was fairly ok at supporting my Blood angels mate but eventually he got overwhemed at i simply could not put enough damage on the enemy leman russ tanks.
Any suggestions on changes would be great, its a doubles tournament and I am trying to make a strong supporting force.
I whipped up something on the quick which is close to what I generally run as the mobile-ish shooting platform of my list. You seem to want to run a battalion, so here you go:
999 pts
Azrael
Lt (regular)
9x Intercessors
5x Bolter scouts
5x Bolter scouts
3x Aggressor w/boltstorm
Apothecary
Company Ancient
8x Hellblasters (plas Incinerator)
You can pull the Aggressors in favor of some other upgrades like sniper rifles and some power fists for the LT and Int Sgt, and some more Hellblasters, but I like having them for counter assault threat. Hellblasters plus strat are going to do work, and if they focus fire on them, you have an Apothecary and Standard to keep them coming back and shooting more, plus Azrael's force field.
A battalion is not completely needed but it seemed the most logical to start with, I have never used aggressors or intercessors so why do you suggest them, what makes them suitible for dark angels in particular?
I can't speak for the Dark Talons because I have none, but when I look at this list, I see one unit (black knights) which will vaporize on turn 1. I played in a tournament in November with 10 black knights. Even with the protection of Azrael (or jink) and a Dark Shroud, they vanished on turn 1 almost every game. When they didn't vanish completely they were already severely depleted. As a result, when I look at your list, I see no anti tank that will be present from turns 2-7. Again, I can't speak for the dark talons, I know they have the rift cannon but I'm just not familiar enough with its output.
I also don't have much faith in scouts surviving, though I guess with 30 of them, at least some will survive due to being such low priority kills (from a purely threat perspective).
I definitely agree about the giant squad of black knights getting vaporized quickly. I've had better luck with them in 2x5 or 2x6 squads. That was part of my dilemma/reasoning behind attempting to drop the Dark Shroud and pick up at least 3 more black knights so I could run 2x5 squads. It's also a little easier to try and hide 5 bikes out of line of sight vs a bigger blob.
As much as I don't want to add an IG battalion i'm going to give it a try mostly for tournaments where I want to have a shot at winning anything.
I will say having 2-3 Dark Talons helps draw some attention away from your Black Knights. The rift cannons have potential for solid output, but in my experience they usually just fizzle out -- 1 shot and usually fails to hit/wound. When it does go off it's really nice. I love having them as a distraction and the bolters + stasis bomb.
A battalion is not completely needed but it seemed the most logical to start with, I have never used aggressors or intercessors so why do you suggest them, what makes them suitible for dark angels in particular?
again appreciated for the help
Both are multi-wound models that can put out a good amount of firepower, as well as being mobile enough to shift around easily. Aggressors have power fists as well as a lot of dakka, so they (along with a Heroically Intervening Azrael and other characters) can do serious damage in assault. Though I notice that post CA the flamer Aggressors are actually cheaper than the boltstorms, so you might go that route for massive overwatch hits and be able to throw a power sword on the LT or something.
The main thing that DA give them is Azrael's force field, which makes them cheap multi-wounds with lots of shooting and a 4++
Greetings everyone! Haven't really posted anything here before, but I would like to join the conversation. I play Dark Angels for 7 ( not counting 2019) years now, I started when 6th was still new. So far trough out 6th and 7th I had a good time with my DA, specially in 7th where, yes yes I was that guy and no people had no problem with it, I played pure Black Knights army. During 6th I played some mix of all wings, mostly focusing on Ravenwing with some green and Deathwing support, as I mentioned in 7th I went full on Ravenwing. However since the start of 8th I am seriously struggling to find a suitable build for my army, I don't expect to win every game, that is kind of impossible, but I wish to have a fighting chance, it happens sometimes that I get wiped turn 1 or get so much crippled that it is pointless to go on. I have tried different variations of mixed lists, lists that go heavy on Deathwing, lists that go heavy on Ravenwing, lists that go around Azrael and Hellblasters castle and so on and so on, I have tried to use screening units, cheap troops to be able to take Battalion for the CP and to prevent my important units from charges and Smite spam. Problem is I am always outgunned, out charged, other armies simply seem to have answer for everything I bring and I don't seem to have answer for most units the opponents bring. I usually play against Tyranids and Necrons, from time to time against Chaos too. Tyranids are problematic because the mix of horde and monsters they bring, plus that damn unit of 6 Zoanthropes with all of their shenanigans, Necrons simply won't die... My biggest problem is that I have noticed how screen is not really working for me, it feels like point dump because Scouts and/or Tacticals die too fast, sometimes they don't even get the chance to even shoot, they die too fast and leave my other units open for charging or more psychic shenanigans. Lately I am running combination of Azrael castle with Hellblasters and some devastators, combined with either Deathwing or Imperial Knight, but it's still not good enough. What I find problematic is the lack of protection in out units, other armies seem to have more layers of protection, cheap hordes or expensive but extremely durable big units, either situations hard to deal, feels like our units don't make it up for the lack of protection in fire or/and melee power and vice versa, sure we have some great choices, on paper at least, but it always seem to me like I can't deal enough damage to actually cripple the opponent's army.
All of this being said, I look at the changes that CA brought, they seem ok, the new Ravenwing detachment from Vigilus got my attention, but it seems to me, correct me if I am wrong, that it's very CP hungry for it to be fully effective. Black Knights dropped in points and that's awesome, to me even now without that funny 2+ re-rollable Jink save Black Knights are still my fav unit in our codex. However, even with the points drop I wonder who effective they are still. As I was reading the previous posts in this topic I noticed that most of you agree that they still get vaporized very very fast, and I think that is again due to a serious lack of "protection", as some of you mentioned, even Dark Shroud seems to not be enough. So I was thinking, isn't it a better choice to maybe play more regular Ravenwing Bikes, ofc by all means to not exclude the Black Knights, but now in 7th they don't seem too much drastically different. Ofc, BKs have the Plasma Talon and decent melee weapon, but it feels that in a way the regular Ravenwing bikes are very very close to how good they are with BKs now much more than how it was back in 7th when BKs had Skilled Rider, which I hope you'll agree made big difference, but now when that is gone, I am not so sure on the effectiveness level of both of those units.
Here is an example of what I mean. Let's take the basic starting unit composition, 3 models in each squad, BKs being 114 and regular bikes being 69, despite the points difference BKs seem like the better choice, seemingly better weapons, but let us give the regular bikes 2 plasma guns and a combi-plasma to the Stg. Now the regular bikes are 102, which is still less than BKs, but now they have plasma that can shoot on 24", sure it is one shot less than the Plasma Talon, but it can still make a shot, while the PT is only 18", on 12" the plasma guns can shoot twice since they are Rapid Fire, and let's be honest if there is a unit close enough for me to use Rapid Fire, in both cases of regular bikes and BKs the situation has already became somewhat serious, the enemy got too close already. Now I know we can add more models, and the number of plasma shots will go up for the BKs while not for the regular bikes, but the regular bikes will still have good number of shots from their twin-linked bolters, in a way regular bikes still get more shots number-wise than BKs. This is all mathhammer and it may not mean anything, but it seems to me that, maybe, just maybe regular bikes are more effective for the points than BKs, even after CA 2018. The only thing that BKs have better is the Corvus Hammer, it is decent, but let us be honest, bikes are mainly not really a CC units, sadly.
Honestly I would like to see Ravenwing great again, I mean, to me at least, they were the knightly cavalry of our Chapter, something very very cool. I would like to see your experience with the Ravenwing detachment in the days to come, in hope that I'll see more good experiences than bad ones. If anyone has any suggestions also on good army lists that are decent and have good winning chances, or some nice combos, I would really appreciate if you'll share some with me.
Yeah, pure Dark Angels are in a tough spot. Mostly, Space Marines in general aren't doing really great in this meta.
I'm planning on getting a knight to make up for most of my melee necessities in one flank (also killing big things), while a Vigilus RW go for the other flank and harass the enemy. Some Scout screen (either with camo cloaks or hidden from the enemy's view) and Azrael + Lieutenant with Devs to provide long-range support. Oh, and if points allow, plasma Vets in a Rhino or 2
Rihariel wrote: Greetings everyone! Haven't really posted anything here before, but I would like to join the conversation. I play Dark Angels for 7 ( not counting 2019) years now, I started when 6th was still new. So far trough out 6th and 7th I had a good time with my DA, specially in 7th where, yes yes I was that guy and no people had no problem with it, I played pure Black Knights army. During 6th I played some mix of all wings, mostly focusing on Ravenwing with some green and Deathwing support, as I mentioned in 7th I went full on Ravenwing. However since the start of 8th I am seriously struggling to find a suitable build for my army, I don't expect to win every game, that is kind of impossible, but I wish to have a fighting chance, it happens sometimes that I get wiped turn 1 or get so much crippled that it is pointless to go on. I have tried different variations of mixed lists, lists that go heavy on Deathwing, lists that go heavy on Ravenwing, lists that go around Azrael and Hellblasters castle and so on and so on, I have tried to use screening units, cheap troops to be able to take Battalion for the CP and to prevent my important units from charges and Smite spam. Problem is I am always outgunned, out charged, other armies simply seem to have answer for everything I bring and I don't seem to have answer for most units the opponents bring. I usually play against Tyranids and Necrons, from time to time against Chaos too. Tyranids are problematic because the mix of horde and monsters they bring, plus that damn unit of 6 Zoanthropes with all of their shenanigans, Necrons simply won't die... My biggest problem is that I have noticed how screen is not really working for me, it feels like point dump because Scouts and/or Tacticals die too fast, sometimes they don't even get the chance to even shoot, they die too fast and leave my other units open for charging or more psychic shenanigans. Lately I am running combination of Azrael castle with Hellblasters and some devastators, combined with either Deathwing or Imperial Knight, but it's still not good enough. What I find problematic is the lack of protection in out units, other armies seem to have more layers of protection, cheap hordes or expensive but extremely durable big units, either situations hard to deal, feels like our units don't make it up for the lack of protection in fire or/and melee power and vice versa, sure we have some great choices, on paper at least, but it always seem to me like I can't deal enough damage to actually cripple the opponent's army.
All of this being said, I look at the changes that CA brought, they seem ok, the new Ravenwing detachment from Vigilus got my attention, but it seems to me, correct me if I am wrong, that it's very CP hungry for it to be fully effective. Black Knights dropped in points and that's awesome, to me even now without that funny 2+ re-rollable Jink save Black Knights are still my fav unit in our codex. However, even with the points drop I wonder who effective they are still. As I was reading the previous posts in this topic I noticed that most of you agree that they still get vaporized very very fast, and I think that is again due to a serious lack of "protection", as some of you mentioned, even Dark Shroud seems to not be enough. So I was thinking, isn't it a better choice to maybe play more regular Ravenwing Bikes, ofc by all means to not exclude the Black Knights, but now in 7th they don't seem too much drastically different. Ofc, BKs have the Plasma Talon and decent melee weapon, but it feels that in a way the regular Ravenwing bikes are very very close to how good they are with BKs now much more than how it was back in 7th when BKs had Skilled Rider, which I hope you'll agree made big difference, but now when that is gone, I am not so sure on the effectiveness level of both of those units.
Here is an example of what I mean. Let's take the basic starting unit composition, 3 models in each squad, BKs being 114 and regular bikes being 69, despite the points difference BKs seem like the better choice, seemingly better weapons, but let us give the regular bikes 2 plasma guns and a combi-plasma to the Stg. Now the regular bikes are 102, which is still less than BKs, but now they have plasma that can shoot on 24", sure it is one shot less than the Plasma Talon, but it can still make a shot, while the PT is only 18", on 12" the plasma guns can shoot twice since they are Rapid Fire, and let's be honest if there is a unit close enough for me to use Rapid Fire, in both cases of regular bikes and BKs the situation has already became somewhat serious, the enemy got too close already. Now I know we can add more models, and the number of plasma shots will go up for the BKs while not for the regular bikes, but the regular bikes will still have good number of shots from their twin-linked bolters, in a way regular bikes still get more shots number-wise than BKs. This is all mathhammer and it may not mean anything, but it seems to me that, maybe, just maybe regular bikes are more effective for the points than BKs, even after CA 2018. The only thing that BKs have better is the Corvus Hammer, it is decent, but let us be honest, bikes are mainly not really a CC units, sadly.
Honestly I would like to see Ravenwing great again, I mean, to me at least, they were the knightly cavalry of our Chapter, something very very cool. I would like to see your experience with the Ravenwing detachment in the days to come, in hope that I'll see more good experiences than bad ones. If anyone has any suggestions also on good army lists that are decent and have good winning chances, or some nice combos, I would really appreciate if you'll share some with me.
Yes, and I really hope that they will remain legal, simply because I have two beautiful conversions of a Librarian and Interrogator-Chaplain both on bikes that I really love, and I wan't them to be playable units, even though I don't play them anymore, all though maybe the Librarian on Bike can still work good.
Rihariel wrote: Yes, and I really hope that they will remain legal, simply because I have two beautiful conversions of a Librarian and Interrogator-Chaplain both on bikes that I really love, and I wan't them to be playable units, even though I don't play them anymore, all though maybe the Librarian on Bike can still work good.
I have one of each of those as well that I converted! I still use the LIbrarian sometimes, but the Interrogator is just not really worth it in 8th.
Finally got to play my first game using the new specialist detachment. Oh boy. It's good.
Played 2000pts against Tyranids. Was able to screen out my blob of black knights, Sammael, and the Talonmaster with some guard infantry. Heroic intervention, kill some stuff, leave combat safely to shoot again next turn. Rinse and repeat that about 2 more times. It just helps so much.
The other stratagem I think I used once or twice, which came in handy for Sammy and the TM getting +1 to hit for all their heavy weapons. Oddly enough, black knights didn't need to do a whole lot vs the bugs, but I sort of expected that.
turmoil wrote: Finally got to play my first game using the new specialist detachment. Oh boy. It's good.
Played 2000pts against Tyranids. Was able to screen out my blob of black knights, Sammael, and the Talonmaster with some guard infantry. Heroic intervention, kill some stuff, leave combat safely to shoot again next turn. Rinse and repeat that about 2 more times. It just helps so much.
The other stratagem I think I used once or twice, which came in handy for Sammy and the TM getting +1 to hit for all their heavy weapons. Oddly enough, black knights didn't need to do a whole lot vs the bugs, but I sort of expected that.
turmoil wrote: Finally got to play my first game using the new specialist detachment. Oh boy. It's good.
Played 2000pts against Tyranids. Was able to screen out my blob of black knights, Sammael, and the Talonmaster with some guard infantry. Heroic intervention, kill some stuff, leave combat safely to shoot again next turn. Rinse and repeat that about 2 more times. It just helps so much.
The other stratagem I think I used once or twice, which came in handy for Sammy and the TM getting +1 to hit for all their heavy weapons. Oddly enough, black knights didn't need to do a whole lot vs the bugs, but I sort of expected that.
Can you post your list?
Airwing Detachment 1 CP Dark Talon x3
Dark Angels Battalion 5 CP -- Specialist Detachment, Ravenwing Attack Squadron (-1CP) -- Relics of the Rock (-3CP)
Talonmaster - Heavenfall Blade
Talonmaster - Monster Slayer of Caliban
Sammael on Sableclaw
5 Scouts, 1 w/Heavy Bolter rest have bolters
5 Scouts, 1 w/Heavy Bolter rest have bolters
5 Scouts, 5 w/bolters
8 Black Knights
1 Dark Shroud
Astra Militarum Battalion 5 CP - Cadian
Company Commander -- Warlord, Kurov's Aquila, Grand Strategist
Company Commander
10 guardsmen
10 guardsmen
10 guardsmen
Didn't actually get to use the Monster Slayer Relic, so could always save 2 CP and just get 1 relic blade. Not sure how this will do against armies with lots of T7/8 targets. Probably not great, but maybe the weight of fire will help that. We'll see.
Kind of hate not having a mono dark angels list, but if that's what it takes to win then i'll do it for events. For fun games though, i'll keep it pure DA.
The purpose of a screen is to a) die, b) be targetted before the units you care about. If you feel they're dying too fast, that probably means they're doing their job right. This is why they should be as cheap as possible.
Black knights are indeed one of the best units in the codex. But there is one key area in which regular RW bikers out-do black knights. Durability per point. I think you're on the right track. Ideally, I think bikers should be acting as a variety of screen for black knights. Put the regular bikes in front, and keep the black knights on the edge of 18" from their targets. There really is no need to get closer (assaulting with black knights is usually going to do more harm than good).
2x5 black knights may well be the better than 1x10, especially post CA2018. I went with 1x10 for several reasons: a) maximizing WftDA, b) it's easier to keep one squad in reroll and -1 to hit bubbles, c) it was one less unit drop which meant a greater chance of going first.
Point c is negated by CA2018 mission deployment rules.
At the moment, I suspect our best build features:
Many RW bikes for anti-horde (flamers/combi flamer)
2-3 Dark Talons
10 Black knights
Backed up by some solid (long range) anti-tank in the form of devastators or predators
1-3 scout squads to be a screen and/or prevent placement of enemy screens
But I'm no-where near top placing in tournaments, so take that as you will.
Hey there, DA friends! I recently started playing 40k again in 8th edition and well, I haven't played my DA since I was playing Doublewing/Deathwing in 5th (with the 4th ed codex). So, generally I have the 6th edition starter (DA models ofc), I have an old RW battle force, some terminators, some extra bikers, a Landspeeder, some dreadnoughts, a Storm Raven and the new starter Primaris Marines set. I want to create a fun list (it's not going to be my main or competitive army) using either RW, DW or both ideally. I miss the new flyer models and the Dark shroud and I'm not quite sure if I want to invest in them. What I do want to buy is the plasma heavy squad thing.
So, any chance someone can explain how RW/DW works or how they would work together? I understand I'm probably going to have to get a battalion with scouts (which I also don't really have) in order to get some CP going. Worthy of mention is the fact that I also have some blood angels, namely: 10+ sanguinary guard, Dante, many many assault marines, DC squads, Lib Dread, DC dread, Lemartes and some random vehicles like rhinos/razorbacks etc.
Getting a BA/DA force (DA being RW or DW or both) would also interest me.
Get Azrael if you want to play Dark Angels (you can use the captain from your started set). Get a Land Raider for terminators (and use the Intractible stratagem on it). Build as many Talonmaster/Sableclaw models as you can for Ravenwing. Scouts are one of the best Troops in the game, so certainly some of those. Hope that helps.
I know this isn't exactly DA heavy, but it's the first list I came up with using the models I have (only thing I'm missing is that many intercessors). Didn't really end up using DW, just some RWHQ and some bolter bikers for chaff. The BA element is pretty strong, but I'd really love some comments, at least on the DA part.
necr0n wrote: I know this isn't exactly DA heavy, but it's the first list I came up with using the models I have (only thing I'm missing is that many intercessors). Didn't really end up using DW, just some RWHQ and some bolter bikers for chaff. The BA element is pretty strong, but I'd really love some comments, at least on the DA part.
Azrael isn't doing much with just a 5 man Hellblaster unit to keep him company; maybe trade him out for Sammael in Sableclaw instead (if you can find some points elsewhere in your list). You could probably save some points if you got some more Scouts to replace the Tactical squads with. Razorbacks with Twin Asscans are solid, as is the Talonmaster (he's actually really amazing). On your bikers, I'm thinking you might want to find a way to get a couple of special weapons in there. Flamers at least for some horde-clearing (which seems to be the role you are going for with that unit). Scout Bikes would be better, as they carry both shotguns and twin bolters, meaning 6 shots per guy at 12 inches or less. I realise that the list is the models you have available, but I'm just making suggestions for potential future purchases.
Azrael isn't doing much with just a 5 man Hellblaster unit to keep him company; maybe trade him out for Sammael in Sableclaw instead (if you can find some points elsewhere in your list). You could probably save some points if you got some more Scouts to replace the Tactical squads with. Razorbacks with Twin Asscans are solid, as is the Talonmaster (he's actually really amazing). On your bikers, I'm thinking you might want to find a way to get a couple of special weapons in there. Flamers at least for some horde-clearing (which seems to be the role you are going for with that unit). Scout Bikes would be better, as they carry both shotguns and twin bolters, meaning 6 shots per guy at 12 inches or less. I realise that the list is the models you have available, but I'm just making suggestions for potential future purchases.
That does make sense, Azreal is too expensive for buffing 5 marines, heh. So what about Librarian on a bike instead of Sammael (well, cause I don't have Sammael and he's harder to proxy)? I've updated the list:
Got some plasma (Plasma on Tacs, Plasma on biker, Plasma on Black Knights), a couple of TwinAssaults, let's not foget the H.B attack bike, a lot of (storm)bolters and then powerfists/Inferno pistols. Looks way prettier than the one before it. Also, a 4man Black Knight squad should be kind of easier maybe to operate, given what I read earlier in this thread?
EDIT: Would like some feedback on who should be warlord. DA / BA or who in specific and why? Which is the best trait?
Go for Sammael in Sableclaw if you are running Black Knights. Use a Landspeeder as the base with an extra Assault Cannon and an extra Heavy Bolter plus some bits from the Black Knights. It's not too hard of a conversion and it's worth the effort.
Azrael isn't doing much with just a 5 man Hellblaster unit to keep him company; maybe trade him out for Sammael in Sableclaw instead (if you can find some points elsewhere in your list). You could probably save some points if you got some more Scouts to replace the Tactical squads with. Razorbacks with Twin Asscans are solid, as is the Talonmaster (he's actually really amazing). On your bikers, I'm thinking you might want to find a way to get a couple of special weapons in there. Flamers at least for some horde-clearing (which seems to be the role you are going for with that unit). Scout Bikes would be better, as they carry both shotguns and twin bolters, meaning 6 shots per guy at 12 inches or less. I realise that the list is the models you have available, but I'm just making suggestions for potential future purchases.
That does make sense, Azreal is too expensive for buffing 5 marines, heh. So what about Librarian on a bike instead of Sammael (well, cause I don't have Sammael and he's harder to proxy)? I've updated the list:
Got some plasma (Plasma on Tacs, Plasma on biker, Plasma on Black Knights), a couple of TwinAssaults, let's not foget the H.B attack bike, a lot of (storm)bolters and then powerfists/Inferno pistols. Looks way prettier than the one before it. Also, a 4man Black Knight squad should be kind of easier maybe to operate, given what I read earlier in this thread?
EDIT: Would like some feedback on who should be warlord. DA / BA or who in specific and why? Which is the best trait?
I didn't have a lot of luck with my librarian on bike so far. I once denied death hex and saved Sammael which is huge. A shame he is an index option and there for expensive.
In a 1000pts list I ran:
Sammael
Librarian on Bike
3x 5 Scouts
Bike Squad with 2x Plasmagun
1x 6 Black Knights
Dark Shroud
Just got the codex. I play Dark Elfs but always like to look through the books.
It looks like we can put all our leader guys in terminator armor, but can't put them on bikes. Which is strange and annoying becuase we are the biker Marines right?
Librarians and Techmarines can ride bikes in the Index. Because they're Index-only, they did not get the points drops over the past two years, and they may no longer be legal a year or two from now.
Dark Angels could never put a Captain/Master on a bike because there's only one in the lore and his name is Sammael.
What happens when we combine this beta rule with the Indomitus Veteran stratagem for Bolt Rifles ? We quadruple the shots ? A unit of 10 Indomitus Veterans Intercessors that didn't move shoots 6 times under 15" ?
Dark Angels cannot use the Indomitus Crusaders specialist detachment because they are not a Space Marines detachment, unfortunately. This was clarified in the recent Designer's Commentary for Vigilus.
Either way, each Intercessor would get 4 shots since the stratagem changes the bolt riles to be rapid fire 2. The new rule says that they get the rapid fire bonus if either they are within half range or they did not move, not that they can get the rapid fire bonus twice.
Well... frankly looks like the Dark Talon is even more of a staple in my army now but its my Termies whom I am happiest about, 24" 4 shots apiece is gonna help with actually being able to do something when they inevitably get out of charge ranges.
As I usually run a 10 man termie squad, Im looking forward to the increased firepower at range
bobafett012 wrote: Edit: nm, I read the rule wrong. It replaces rapid fire so only affects outside 12" range for terms. Basically, they always fire 4 shots I guess.
bobafett012 wrote: Edit: nm, I read the rule wrong. It replaces rapid fire so only affects outside 12" range for terms. Basically, they always fire 4 shots I guess.
You say that like its a bad thing.... terms are cheaper now, and putting out a lot of firepower to their points.
Think of 165 pts of terms vs 165 pts of cultists. Even assuming cultists shoot first they can expect to get 16 hits, 6 wounds, and 1 failed armor save (which isnt anything). Terms fire back and should kill around 7 cultists. Cultists move up, fire again, maybe kill that wounded term off. Terms fall back because why would they let the cultists get into rapid fire range, fire back, kill another 5. You have now killed 13 cultists to 1 term, or 65 pts to 29.
Point is terms are great chaft clearers now. Only thing that sucks for da is we cant swap those power fists out for better / cheaper cc weapons. Are they OMG bestest now? No. But they are getting better.
You can make a pretty decent (though not top tier) gunline army with primaris Hellblasters, Plasma Inceptors, and Aggressors, but it depends on what else you are willing/allowed to take.
To make infantry work you need a Darkshroud and Azrael for the 4++ and the -1 to hit because they are not survivable without it. I would also say you need at least 1 Dark Talon if not 2 to help screen. Talonmaster is a great addition for the rerolls to wound and for the amount of dakka it puts out, but a Primaris Lieutenant can replace him.
The Primaris Chapter Ancient is decent, I don't think that the difference between him and the Company Ancient is that much if you have Azrael around, though he is more expensive than he should be.
The same goes for the Primaris Librarian and the Apothecary. They are useful models but they are support characters that pay to have offensive/defensive stats that they do not regularly get to use.
Finally, Scouts/Intercessors are good troops to fill out the battalion and take objectives. I like to take at least one of each because Intercessors are harder to budge from objectives, but Scouts are cheaper and can infiltrate.
Do you have an idea of what list you are thinking of taking?
abyrn wrote: You can make a pretty decent (though not top tier) gunline army with primaris Hellblasters, Plasma Inceptors, and Aggressors, but it depends on what else you are willing/allowed to take.
To make infantry work you need a Darkshroud and Azrael for the 4++ and the -1 to hit because they are not survivable without it. I would also say you need at least 1 Dark Talon if not 2 to help screen. Talonmaster is a great addition for the rerolls to wound and for the amount of dakka it puts out, but a Primaris Lieutenant can replace him.
The Primaris Chapter Ancient is decent, I don't think that the difference between him and the Company Ancient is that much if you have Azrael around, though he is more expensive than he should be.
The same goes for the Primaris Librarian and the Apothecary. They are useful models but they are support characters that pay to have offensive/defensive stats that they do not regularly get to use.
Finally, Scouts/Intercessors are good troops to fill out the battalion and take objectives. I like to take at least one of each because Intercessors are harder to budge from objectives, but Scouts are cheaper and can infiltrate.
Do you have an idea of what list you are thinking of taking?
Just something based round primaris with the new chapter approved mission in mind I don't play itc mission much in the uk
abyrn wrote: You can make a pretty decent (though not top tier) gunline army with primaris Hellblasters, Plasma Inceptors, and Aggressors, but it depends on what else you are willing/allowed to take.
To make infantry work you need a Darkshroud and Azrael for the 4++ and the -1 to hit because they are not survivable without it. I would also say you need at least 1 Dark Talon if not 2 to help screen. Talonmaster is a great addition for the rerolls to wound and for the amount of dakka it puts out, but a Primaris Lieutenant can replace him.
The Primaris Chapter Ancient is decent, I don't think that the difference between him and the Company Ancient is that much if you have Azrael around, though he is more expensive than he should be.
The same goes for the Primaris Librarian and the Apothecary. They are useful models but they are support characters that pay to have offensive/defensive stats that they do not regularly get to use.
Finally, Scouts/Intercessors are good troops to fill out the battalion and take objectives. I like to take at least one of each because Intercessors are harder to budge from objectives, but Scouts are cheaper and can infiltrate.
Do you have an idea of what list you are thinking of taking?
Just something based round primaris with the new chapter approved mission in mind I don't play itc mission much in the uk
bobafett012 wrote: Edit: nm, I read the rule wrong. It replaces rapid fire so only affects outside 12" range for terms. Basically, they always fire 4 shots I guess.
You say that like its a bad thing.... terms are cheaper now, and putting out a lot of firepower to their points.
Think of 165 pts of terms vs 165 pts of cultists. Even assuming cultists shoot first they can expect to get 16 hits, 6 wounds, and 1 failed armor save (which isnt anything). Terms fire back and should kill around 7 cultists. Cultists move up, fire again, maybe kill that wounded term off. Terms fall back because why would they let the cultists get into rapid fire range, fire back, kill another 5. You have now killed 13 cultists to 1 term, or 65 pts to 29.
Point is terms are great chaft clearers now. Only thing that sucks for da is we cant swap those power fists out for better / cheaper cc weapons. Are they OMG bestest now? No. But they are getting better.
Not a bad thing, just ok. You can compare them to cultists if you'd like. Put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig, so no matter how you want to dress it up, terminators are still not worth their points, even after a 6 point drop, they aren't survivable enough, and they don't have the best weapon options, they aren't mobile, hell the new tactical reserve times even hurt them.
I've been playing Deathwing since second edition and over the last few editions, I've seen terminators go from 40ks iconic unit to a unit that's basically not even seen on the table other than in friendly games.
Azuza001 wrote: Point is terms are great chaft clearers now. Only thing that sucks for da is we cant swap those power fists out for better / cheaper cc weapons. Are they OMG bestest now? No. But they are getting better.
7 points for a STR 8, AP -2 , D3 wounds is better than a poke in the eye.
Let's say that a hellbrute gets close to a 10 man deathwing squad.
The deathwing fires their 40 storm bolter shots for ((2/3 hit) * (1/6 wound) * (1/3 failed save) = 2/54 chance of wounding per dice) * 40 shots = 1.48 wounds. (Yes, adding up chances to hit is not a perfect solution, just as you are not guaranteed to get a heads if you flip a coin twice, but in that above attack (40 + 27 + 4 = 71) dice would be rolled in the attack. The law of large numbers will start to come into play)
The deathwing assault the hellbrute. They will swing 18 times at a 4+ to hit. ((1/2 hit) * (2/3 wound) * (5/6 failed save) = 10/36 chance of wounding per dice) * 20 swings = ~5 swings go through for ~11 wounds. That's not including any lucky swings from a power sword.
*BOOM* .
No more hellbrute. If you have a deathwing ancient nearby, they will have 3 attacks each for 50% more damage.
As a sidenote, the hellbrute will (2/3 to hit, 5/6 to wound, 2/3 failed save = 20/54 chance of a dead TEQ) * 4 swings = ~1.48 dead TEQ.
Powerfists are really dangerous for vehicles. You just can't part a vehicle next to a squad of termies and expect it to be unmolested.
Edit : I'm really debating the value of sticking assault cannons on terminators at this point. For their cost, just going with more storm bolters may be a better solution. 32 points a termie, while not great, is not unreasonable. Those heavy weapon platforms could be placed on other delivery mechanisms like preds or dreads.
I'll be trying out a deathwing list next week and will post my thoughts after.
* This gives 121 wounds on the table. 89 of those wounds is in a 2++/5++ platform.
* It has 180 SB shots per round. Bring a bucket of dice!
* It has 8 LC shots a round. It's not the most anti-armor shots, but it can throw some LCs into a high threat target like a IK.
* 85 PF (STR 8, AP-3, 1d3) damage attacks up close.
* There are 16 DCCW (STR 12, AP-3, 1d3) attacks as well, further deterring getting close.
* The banner giving another +1 Attack to every unit within 6"
It has a a few glaring weaknesses. No troops are one thing. A weakness to D2 weapons is another.
I could put MLs on the dreads, relying upon the termies to do heavy assault lifting, but the 4 attacks for the dread is such a nice perk.
* This gives 121 wounds on the table. 89 of those wounds is in a 2++/5++ platform.
* It has 180 SB shots per round. Bring a bucket of dice!
* It has 8 LC shots a round. It's not the most anti-armor shots, but it can throw some LCs into a high threat target like a IK.
* 85 PF (STR 8, AP-3, 1d3) damage attacks up close.
* There are 16 DCCW (STR 12, AP-3, 1d3) attacks as well, further deterring getting close.
* The banner giving another +1 Attack to every unit within 6"
It has a a few glaring weaknesses. No troops are one thing. A weakness to D2 weapons is another.
I could put MLs on the dreads, relying upon the termies to do heavy assault lifting, but the 4 attacks for the dread is such a nice perk.
What do you think?
One of your Vanguard detachments is illegal due to no HQ. Other than that, it looks solid, or rather as solid as pure Deathwing is likely to get anyways. You are going to really be hurting for Command Points due to no Troops, so good luck using Deathwing Assault at all.
ZergSmasher wrote: One of your Vanguard detachments is illegal due to no HQ. Other than that, it looks solid, or rather as solid as pure Deathwing is likely to get anyways. You are going to really be hurting for Command Points due to no Troops, so good luck using Deathwing Assault at all.
Good call. I'll have to swap out the ancient for a librarian. That fits right into the same cost.
You drop down to 38 termies from 41. You gain an extra CP and librarian .
You get more of a split of different kids of termies. 3 DWTDA, 2 Tartos, and 2 Cataphractii gives you some flex.
You are down to just 40 SBs, so only 160 dice per round.
This is why its really difficult to do an effective pure deathwing army atm. Vanguards only giving you 1 CP hurts. Unless you wanna drop one vanguard and go for a small battalion of scouts ( do the old 1st and 10th) then i cant really see how you could get any more short of dropping something and adding in the ol loyal 32 (but again, this defeats the idea of pure deathwing) its something ive been struggling with, though ive found relying on character auras for rerolls and spending the few cps available on DW assault helps. My advice would be...
princeyg wrote: This is why its really difficult to do an effective pure deathwing army atm. Vanguards only giving you 1 CP hurts. Unless you wanna drop one vanguard and go for a small battalion of scouts ( do the old 1st and 10th) then i cant really see how you could get any more short of dropping something and adding in the ol loyal 32 (but again, this defeats the idea of pure deathwing) its something ive been struggling with, though ive found relying on character auras for rerolls and spending the few cps available on DW assault helps.
We could squeeze out an extra CP for a total of 6 with the second solution. That would allow for 3 uses of DW assault on 5 man squads.
Let's talk about how good DW assault is. Every game lasts around 6 turns. Not every unit is going to be able to fire every turn. Units will also take casualties, lowering their damage output. Let's stay that in an average game, each unit will get 3 rounds of 'full' firing.
DW assault provides a 33% increase in firepower for a unit. That's a pretty sweet deal. More importantly, this increase in firepower is done right when it's needed, just as the unit is dropped onto the theater. A full 10 man squad will be dropping 80 SB dice when it lands. If you dropped a captain (or Belial) right before that 10 man squad, then nearly all those shots will hit.
The first list would get to use this ability once per game, as the 3CP cost would drain 3/5 of the total CP. This gives a total of 40 extra shots. This leaves 2 CP for rerolls or other fun.
The second list would be able to use this ability 3 times per game, at 2CP per cost. Given that the units are half size, this gives 20 shots per DWA, for a total of 60 extra shots. This does not leave any other CPs for rerolls.
princeyg wrote: My advice would be...drop something and swap the master for Belial?
What though? Where to come up with the 40 extra points?
Belial lets you reroll all to-hits, which is pretty sweet when it comes to PFs. In the second list I dropped the master for a Chaplain for that very reason.
I've played pure Deathwing since second edition, even with GW doing their best to make it unplayable every time you turn around. Having said that, I've played mine in this edition one of 2 ways, triple venerable dead for fire support/anti tank (usually babysat by Azreal) or triple ravenwing flyers, although the triple dread list was killed when they changed the rules for Azrael shield.
The flyers are ridiculously better in the list tbh. They do more, they live longer, they draw more fire and they have the one thing that DW lacks the most, mobility. Now with the extra points I have left over from CA and the boost to hurricane bolter's, I'm trying my damnedest to drop a flyer and squeeze in a Stormraven. That lets me transport a squad of knights (and hopefully Asmodai) straight into CC, plus it brings just a ridiculous amount of firepower along with it.
Would love to get some input on this list. It's not designed to be uber competitive, just wanted to use all 3 wings of the DA and have some fun. I wanted to mess around with a tiny gunline (Azrael, hell blasters, and dreads), use sammy and the talonmaster to support that gunline or break off and go shoot things, and finally use some deathwing because why not?
It's LVO week, and the lists have been released on Best Coast Pairings. I thought I'd copy down all the Dark Angels ones I could find in case anyone finds them helpful or useful in building their own DA lists. I'll also give a few of my own thoughts on them.
Aaron Wisch:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment (Blood Angels)
Captain: Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
Captain: Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
5 Scouts: 4x Combat Knife, Plasma Pistol and Power Maul on Sgt.
5 Scouts: 4x Combat Knife, Combi-flamer and Power Maul on Sgt.
5 Scouts: 4x Combat Knife, Inferno Pistol and Power Maul on Sgt.
Air Wing Detachment (Dark Angels)
Ravenwing Attack Squadron
Dark Talon
Dark Talon
Dark Talon
Outrider Detachment (Dark Angels)
Sammael in Sableclaw
Ravenwing Talonmaster (Warlord: Brilliant Strategist)
3 Inceptors: Plasma Exterminators
3 Inceptors: Plasma Exterminators
Ravenwing Darkshroud
This list is similar to what we've seen in the past from this guy. It's a solid list. Dark Talons are rock solid, and Inceptors, though fragile for their points, are pretty powerful on the turn they drop, especially if they can come down next to Sammy and the Talonmaster. The Blood Angels make a nice beatstick detachment that can hold objectives with the Scouts.
This is an interesting list. Not sure the snipers are worth it, but Knights are pretty much always good. The Redemptor's plasma weapon is not very good at all IMO, and would be better swapped for the heavy gatling weapon. It's definitely a different sort of Dark Angels list from what we normally see, so we'll have to see how it does.
Andrew Gonyo:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment (Deathwatch)
Watch Captain: Jump Pack, Storm Bolter, Power Sword
Librarian: Force Sword, Bolt Pistol
Veterans: 5x Veteran (Storm Bolter/Storm Shield), 1 Bike (Teleport Homer, Chainsword), 2x Terminator (Storm Bolter/Power Sword), 1x Vanguard Veteran (2x Hand Flamer), Sergeant (Storm Bolter/Storm Shield)
Veterans: 6x Veteran (Storm Bolter/Storm Shield), 1 Bike (Teleport Homer, Chainsword), 1x Terminator (Storm Bolter/Power Sword), 1x Vanguard Veteran (2x Hand Flamer), Sergeant (Storm Bolter/Chainsword)
Veterans: 6x Veteran (Storm Bolter/Storm Shield), 1 Bike (Teleport Homer, Chainsword), 1x Terminator (Storm Bolter/Power Sword), 1x Vanguard Veteran (2x Hand Flamer), Sergeant (Storm Bolter/Chainsword)
Battalion Detachment (Adepta Sororitas: Order of the Bloody Rose)
Celestine
Canoness: Bolt Pistol, Eviscerator, Warlord
Canoness: Bolt Pistol, Eviscerator
5 Battle Sisters: Boltgun
5 Battle Sisters: Boltgun
5 Battle Sisters: Boltgun
10 Seraphim: 2x Double Hand Flamers
10 Seraphim: 2x Double Hand Flamers
10 Seraphim: 2x Double Hand Flamers
Auxiliary Support Detachment (Dark Angels)
10 Deathwing Knights: Watcher in the Dark
Technically this isn't a Dark Angels list, but it's a known good player and he's actually using Deathwing Knights in his list, so I figure it deserves some kind of mention. I'll be interested to find out how he actually uses the DWK.
Bronson James:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment (Dark Angels)
Asmodai
Librarian on Bike: Force Stave
5 Scouts: 5x Sniper Rifle
5 Scouts: 5x Sniper Rifle
5 Scouts: 4x Boltgun, Heavy Bolter
5 Deathwing Knights
Redemptor Dreadnought: Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Storm Bolters
Relic Deredeo Dreadnought: Anvillus Autocannon Battery, Twin Heavy Bolter
6 Ravenwing Black Knights: 1x Grenade Launcher
Darkshroud: Heavy Bolter
Land Raider Crusader: Storm Bolter
Predator: Twin Lascannon, Lascannon sponsons
Ravenwing Dark Talon
This does not seem terribly strong, but it should be fun to play. The Deathwing Party Bus will depend a lot on going first, as that Land Raider will not last long against all those lists that either have Knights or are tooled up to beat Knights.
Chris Rice:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment (Dark Angels)
Azrael
Lieutenant: MC Boltgun, Chainsword
5 Intercessors: Bolt Rifles, Aux Grenade Launcher, Chainsword on Sgt.
5 Intercessors: Bolt Rifles, Aux Grenade Launcher, Chainsword on Sgt.
5 Intercessors: Bolt Rifles, Aux Grenade Launcher, Chainsword on Sgt.
Company Ancient
10 Hellblasters: Plasma Incinerators
Battalion Detachment (Dark Angels)
Ravenwing Attack Squadron
Sammael in Sableclaw
Talonmaster: Monster Slayer of Caliban
5 Scouts: 5x Boltgun
5 Scouts: 5x Boltgun
5 Scouts: 5x Boltgun
Darkshroud: Heavy Bolter
Dark Talon
Dark Talon
Okay, this list is pretty awesome I think. A good twist on the Azrael gunline, sacrificing one of the Hellblaster units for a second Battalion. It has lots of horde control in the form of the two Ravenwing characters and the planes, and the Hellblasters can go after big targets. The main concern I have with the list is that it will struggle against multiple Imperial Knights. It should have decent board control with all those Scouts and stuff.
Christopher Wilmarth:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment (Dark Angels)
Azrael
Talonmaster
5 Scouts: 4x Boltgun, Pistol/CCW on Sgt.
5 Scouts: 4x Boltgun, Pistol/CCW on Sgt.
5 Scouts: 4x Boltgun, PIstol/CCW on Sgt.
3 Aggressors: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets and Fragstorm Launchers
Primaris Ancient
Darkshroud: Heavy Bolter
Spearhead Detachment (Dark Angels)
Primaris Lieutenant: MC Auto Bolt Rifle
5 Devastators: 2x Heavy Bolter, 2x Lascannon, Armorium Cherub
10 Hellblasters: Plasma Incinerators
8 Hellblasters: Plasma Incinerators
Stormraven Gunship: Twin Assault Cannon, Twin Multi-melta, Hurricane Bolters, Stormstrike Missile Launchers
Classic Azrael Gunline setup, but the interesting thing here is the inclusion of a Stormraven instead of a Dark Talon or two. I've been considering getting one of those myself. I'm just not sure the points are worth it on something that can probably get knocked down fairly easily by dedicated anti-armor.
Isaiah Connell:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment (Dark Angels)
Azrael
Talonmaster: Shroud of Heroes
5 Scouts: 5x Sniper Rifle, Camo Cloaks
5 Scouts: 5x Sniper Rifle, Camo Cloaks
5 Scouts: 5x Sniper Rifle, Camo Cloaks
10 Hellblasters: Plasma Incinerators
Outrider Detachment (Dark Angels)
Sammael in Sableclaw
5 Deathwing Knights: Watcher in the Dark
3 Ravenwing Attack Bikes: 3x Multi-melta
9 Ravenwing Black Knights: 1x Grenade Launcher, Melta Bombs
Darkshroud: Heavy Bolter
Seems like a solid list, again based around the tried-and-true Azrael gunline. Black Knights are nice to give the list some mobility, but I'm not sure about the Deathwing Knights in this list. Same with the Attack Bikes. Attack Bikes, to me, just aren't worth the points considering that if they move they suffer the -1 to hit with their primary weapon. But, maybe with Sammael nearby it doesn't matter as much.
There are more DA lists, but it's getting late as I post this so I'll come back and post the rest tomorrow.
I was struggling not to take DA to LVO but decided to fall back onto my Eldar, it seems to match my play style better. Would have loved to have taken a Vigilus Ravenwing detachment, alongside a detachment with some serious AT and maybe some Guard/scouts for board control. I just haven't had the time to practice with them enough.
Okay, getting back to the rest of the DA lists from LVO:
James Walsh:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment (Space Marines: Salamanders)
Techmarine on Bike: Chainsword, Combi-melta, Servo-harness
Techmarine on Bike: Chainsword, Combi-melta, Servo-harness
5 Scouts: 3x Boltgun, Heavy Bolter, Combi-melta and CCW on Sgt.
5 Scouts: 3x Boltgun, Heavy Bolter, Combi-melta and CCW on Sgt.
5 Scouts: 3x Boltgun, Heavy Bolter, Combi-melta and CCW on Sgt.
Land Speeder Storm: Heavy Flamer
Land Speeder Storm: Heavy Flamer
Land Speeder Storm: Heavy Flamer
Battalion Detachment (Dark Angels)
Talonmaster: Warlord (Fury of the Lion)
Sammael in Sableclaw
5 Intercessors: Bolt Rifles, Aux Grenade Launcher, Power Fist on Sgt.
5 Scouts: 3x Boltgun, Heavy Bolter, 2x Plasma Pistol on Sgt.
5 Scouts: 3x Boltgun, Heavy Bolter, 2x Plasma Pistol on Sgt.
3 Ravenwing Bikes: 2x Plasmagun, Combi-plasma on Sgt.
Patrol Detachment (Space Wolves)
Njal Stormcaller in Terminator Armor
Wolf Lord in Terminator Armor
5 Intercessors: Bolt Rifles, Aux Grenade Launcher, Power Fist on Sgt.
5 Wolf Guard Terminators: 4x Combi-plasma/Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield on Pack Leader
An interesting Astartes Soup list with those Salamanders and Wolves alongside the Dark Angels. The Wolf Guard bomb will hit something hard when it drops, but honestly I think it's too big of a point commitment. Terminators cost too much even with the Chapter Approved points drops. Also, generally I'd rather have Ravenwing Black Knights than regular Ravenwing with plasma. Regular Ravenwing, I feel, should have flamers or meltas to give them a slightly different role. I do like the loadout of the Sallies stuff; it really takes advantage of their Chapter Tactic.
Jon Moralee:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment (Dark Angels)
Azrael (Warlord)
Primaris Lieutenant: Plasma Pistol, Power Sword
5 Intercessors: Bolt Rifles
5 Scouts: 4x Boltgun, Heavy Bolter
5 Scouts: 4x Shotgun, Boltgun
10 Hellblasters: Plasma Incinerators
Repulsor: Auto Launchers, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, 3x Storm Bolter, Twin Heavy Bolter
Outrider Detachment (Dark Angels)
Sammael on Corvex
Ravenwing Ancient
3 Inceptors: Plasma Exterminators
3 Ravenwing Black Knights: Power Sword on Huntmaster
Darkshroud: Heavy Bolter
Dark Talon
While I think this list will be fun to play, it lacks armor saturation so that Repulsor will likely get blown sky high on the first turn. At least it's the cheapest loadout possible. I'm also not convinced that the Ravenwing Ancient is worth it unless you've got a large unit of Black Knights. This army will look pretty awesome on the table, though!
Mycroft Holmes:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment (Dark Angels)
Ravenwing Attack Squadron
Sammael in Sableclaw (Warlord)
Talonmaster
5 Scouts: 5x Sniper Rifle, CCW on Sgt.
5 Scouts: 5x Sniper Rifle, CCW on Sgt.
5 Scouts: 5x Shotgun, CCW on Sgt.
6 Ravenwing Black Knights
Darkshroud: Assault Cannon
3 Land Speeders: Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Battalion Detachment (Dark Angels)
Librarian on Bike: Force Axe, Storm Bolter
Lieutenant: Storm Bolter, Power Sword
5 Scouts: 5x Sniper Rifle, CCW on Sgt.
5 Scouts: 5x Sniper Rifle, CCW on Sgt.
6 Tactical Marines: Plasmagun, Storm Bolter/Chainsword on Sgt.
2 Land Speeders: Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolter
10 Devastators: 4x Plasma Cannon, Storm Bolter/Chainsword on Sgt., Armorium Cherub
I'm honestly not sure what to think about this one. I don't like Land Speeders in 8th at all, but that many of them will mulch hordes pretty hard, and Orks are pretty popular at LVO this year. I'd still rather have Dark Talons, as they are harder to hit and tougher. At least with the snipers the list is committed and could actually threaten characters, rather than just throwing one squad in that won't accomplish anything.
Philip Hall (a.k.a. The Glacial Geek):
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment (Dark Angels)
Talonmaster (Warlord)
Talonmaster
Sammael in Sableclaw
5 Scouts: 5x Boltgun
5 Scouts: 4x Boltgun, Heavy Bolter
5 Scouts: 5x Boltgun
5 Scouts: 5x Boltgun
3 Aggressors: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Launchers
3 Aggressors: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Launchers
Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperial Knights: House Raven)
Knight Castellan: 2x Twin Siegebreaker Cannon, 2x Shieldbreaker Missile
Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperial Knights: House Krast)
Knight Gallant: Heavy Stubber
The only ranged anti-tank is the Castellan, and there aren't enough CP in there to Rotate Shields too many times, especially if he wants to use Order of Companions at all. Plenty of anti-horde stuff with all those Aggressors and the three character speeders, though. I think the lack of CP is going to be a massive issue though.
Shaun Sharp:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment (Astra Militarum: Catachan)
Colonel Straken
Primaris Psyker
20 Conscripts
Infantry Squad: Chainsword/Laspistol on Sgt.
Infantry Squad: Chainsword/Laspistol on Sgt.
8 Bullgryns: 5x Slabshield, 3x Bruteshield, 8x Bullgryn Maul
Ministorum Priest
Battalion Detachment (Astra Militarum: Catachan)
Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company
Company Commander: Power Sword, Boltgun, Warlord
Primaris Psyker
Infantry Squad: Chainsword/Laspistol on Sgt.
Infantry Squad: Chainsword/Laspistol on Sgt.
Infantry Squad: Chainsword/Laspistol on Sgt.
Wyvern: Heavy Bolter
Spearhead Detachment (Dark Angels)
Talonmaster
Sammael in Sableclaw
Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought: 2x Twin Lascannon
Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought: 2x Twin Lascannon
Relic Leviathan Dreadnought: 2x Heavy Flamer, 2x Stormcannon Array
This isn't entirely unlike Sharp's BAO list from last year, except with more Guard in there. The Bullgryn bomb with Straken and the Priest is pretty solid despite the nerfs that prevent it from getting a 2++. Not sure it's worth it to take the special Artillery formation for just one Wyvern, but maybe it's just because he's got CP to burn. The strats for that are pretty good.
This could be a pretty solid list. Small Azrael bomb with some mobility in the form of Inceptors and the Knights. Helverins are definitely a good choice; better than Warglaives for sure, I think, especially since this list already has lots of plasma for good AP weapons. Hordes could be a bit of a problem, though, as there really aren't any good ROF weapons in there.
That's all the DA lists I could find, although there could be some I missed that weren't labeled as Dark Angels in the BCP app. It'll be interesting to see where these players all end up finishing, both in the whole tournament and in relation to each other. Some of these lists are things I've thought about trying myself before, so I'll definitely keep an eye on things when LVO is going on.
Glacial Geek's list will have double struggles as its CP-starved, and he uses them soooo poorly. Just a pet peeve as he makes fun content primarily, but people who throw CP at unnecessary, long-shot rerolls, drive me nuts. :-p
You're not wrong, though it'll have some bad match-ups. Nikki has run a similar list vs. me a few times (with BA instead of DA) and it does really well or have an uphill battle depending on the opponent.
I've spent some time going through the DA codex, and have written my thoughts below.
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Special Rules
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Spoiler:
Jink This rule can be very useful if you are looking to get your ravenwing into position.
Being able to give a 4++ to any units is rock solid. While a 4++ is good, it's not good enough to just turbo boost around the game to avoid damage. Your units can and will get killed while turbo-boosting. It just will help them live a little longer.
Inner Circle This rule means that you don't need to ever worry about losing units. This can be useful for your deathwing terminators if you lose 8 models in 1 round. You don't have to worry about any chance of losing those other two.
In 30 years of playing 40k, I have only seen someone play 'fallen' once. They are such a rare unit, the second perk of this rule is not really worth anything.
Defenders of Humanity This is a solid rule for troops that gives them an advantage. Most armies have a similar rule.
Grim Resolve This is a great rule, probably the best for any marine chapter. If a unit did not move in the its prior movement phase, it can reroll 1's to hit. This is great for units that are sitting on the back line delivering damage -- such as devastators.
The other perk of this rule is that you can never lose more than 1 model due to morale issues. Even if you lose 8 marines out of a 10 man squad, there is no way you will lose the entire squad. This can be very useful for scoring those points. ATSKNF is very helpful, but does not prevent wipeouts.
Play to these strengths when playing with DA. Try and bring a few units that can just stand on an objective and shoot it out. Don't just rush up because you can. Dig in and act like the stubborn dark angel you are.
Deathwing Assault For 3 CPs you can have a squad shoot the turn it uses Teleport Strike twice. This will give an extra 40 SB shots and up to 4 CML shots. This is a very powerful stratagem, and gives the deathwing a nice boost in the arm.
While you can use this for smaller DW units, it's more CP effective to use it with larger units.
Wisdom of the Ancients This is useful if you had to move your units and cannot take advantage of 'grim resolve' but you still want to up your damage output for the round.
Only in Death Does Duty End This stratagem can be a nice perk when you want to do more damage or kill an enemy unit. Given that characters deliver more damage in assault than at range, you will usually use this if a DP punks your Belial or Azrael.
This can, however, be used if you are taking a Caplain Dreadnaught from Forge World, letting you get 2 more LC shots before removing the model from play.
Auspex Scan With Bolter Discipline, this rule got better. If your squad did not move, all your models will be firing at twice their rapid fire rate.
Hunt the Fallen This can be useful if you are playing in an ITC game and you want to target an enemy IC. The DA are generally more of a shooty army than an assaulty army, but being able to reroll to-hits against an enemy warboss with your dreadnaught can be a game changer.
Weapons From the Dark Age For 1 CP, you can increase the damage value for plasma weapons by 1. If you have 5 devastators with 4 PCs standing on the top floor in a ruin, and you burn their armoriumm cherub, the squad will have 10 shots, rerolling 1s to hit, that are STR 8, -3 AP, D3. That will do a number on a knight.
Speed of the Raven The real winner here is that by advancing, you also trigger 'jink' for the unit. This means you can now shoot and still enjoy the 4+ invlun save jink provides. For 1 CP, this is a nice perk.
Fury of the Lion Adding 1 to the STR score of +1S for ALL DA in 6 inches is decent, but there are better choices out there.
The problem is that adding just 1 to the STR (and only the round your warlord charges or intervens) is that it is not that much of a damage multiplier.
It's not a bad choice, per say, there are just better ones out there.
Courage of the First Legion Given that Grim Resolve already prevents you from losing more than 1 model, this trait is lackluster
Brilliant Strategist This trait is money. It effectivly gives you 1 extra CP, and then for every Stratagem you use, you have a 1/3 chance of getting one back. If you are using 1 point stratagems, this means a 6 CP army will effectivly have 9 CPs (including the one you get for the trait).
This is hands down the best trait, and the one you should always be taking.
Huntsman This can be useful, but given that you will be shooting something like a plasma gun at your target, it's not game breaking.
Master of Manoeuvre Given that DA are more of a 'stand and shoot' army, this does not fit well into the feel of the army.
Stubborn Tenacity A FNP of 6+ if you did not move your warlord. This ability is 'meh' and will only net your warlord, on average, less than 1 extra wound per battle.
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Relics of Caliban
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Spoiler:
HeavenFall Blade This is a nice upgrade from the standard power sword.
Foe Smiter Making a storm bolter AP -1 and D2 is pretty good. While those 4 shots won't change the scope of the game, they are not bad for a free upgrade.
Shroud of Heroes This can be really useful if you think your character will be targeted on a regular basis.
I see this going with a Chaplain Dreadnaught to make it harder to kill.
Mace of Redemption This upgrades a chaplian's weapon. It's a pretty decent option if you are taking an Interrogator-Chaplain.
Lion's Roar This lets you shoot both the plasma and bolter with your combi-weapon, effectivly netting you 1-2 extra bolter shots. I would rather take the Foe Smiter.
The Eye of the Unseen This stacks nicely with Interrogator-Chaplains. That gives a total -2 to LD. It also gives that DP a big shock when it flies into your warlord only to get smacked around before it can swing.
Mind Worm This is a 1 mortal wound smite that makes your opponent swing last. This can be useful if an enemy DP is about to assault your dreadnaughts. 5 scouts swinging first won't make any difference, so in that case just use a normal smite.
Aversion This causes an enemy unit to have a -1 to hit. This can stack with a dark shroud, making it very hard for enemy units to hit yours.
Righteous Repugnance This stacks very well with Deathwing Terminators. Going from 50% of the power fists hitting to 75% of the power fists hitting and wounding 35/36 of the time instead of 5/6 of the time is a huge boost to damage output.
Trephination Whoever came up with this power does not understand how bell curves work. If you are targeting a LD 8 unit, then there is only a 27.77% to do even one mortal wound. Only 11% of the time you will do more damage than a regular smite, and 72.22% of the time you will do nothing.
If you were to stack the Eye of the Unseen along with an Interrogator-Chaplain, you could boost the effect of this power, but those are a lot of blocks to stack up for a fairly underwhelming result.
Engulfing Fear This power can be really useful when stacked with the Eye of the Unseen along and an Interrogator-Chaplain. Forcing your opponent to roll 2d6 and pick the lowest, along with lowering LD by 2 can cause serious LD issues for units taking losses.
Mind Wipe This power lets you target one model and lower it's LD, BS, and WS if you win a rolloff.
Don't go after enemy characters with this. Target something like a soul grinder or ravager. You will have a better chance of causing the debuff, and the effect will be stronger. Making a model go from a 2+ to 3+ to hit is much less effective than lowering it from 4+ to 5+.
Azrael This guy is expensive, but comes with some nice auras and is exceptional is assault. He also has a nice gun as well.
His Lion helm only effects models within 6", and does not effect vehicles.
This is still one of the few characters in relic armor, so out of the gate he is a 2+ save without the bulky terminator armor.
Belial This guy is not quite as pricy as Azrael, but still fairly pricy.
Obviously he is best when placed with units of deathwing as his aura benefits them the most.
In assault, he's good but not a match for Azrael, who has more attacks and a higher STR.
Sammael on Corvex This guy is just three more points than Azrael. Where Azrael is focused on aura's, Sammael is focused on killing.
He comes with a plasma cannon and two storm bolters. If he charged, his sword is swinging at STR 8, with -3 AP and 2 DMG.
He does still come with a basic aura, which is on a bike base -- making it slightly larger than other character's auras.
Sammael on Sableclaw The twin AC and HB are nice for shooting. He has an improved aura over the bike Sammael.
This version of Sammael is much more underwhelming due to the cost. IMHO, he is about 30 points overcosted.
Interrogator-Chaplain These guys got a point drop in the CA2018 codex, now coming in at a stock 80 points with a 4++ and crozius arcanum.
They also come with 3 auras, two of which buff your units and the third is a debuff aura. Overall, these guys are pretty sweet.
For an extra 15 points, you can give them jump packs, which can work if you are going with an assault based army. If you are looking to go with an assault army, however, you should consider soup with another chapter like BA.
Ravenwing Talonmaster This guy suffers from the same problem as Sableclaw. He's just to expensive for what he gives.
The aura of "No Escape" is nice but he's just too expensive.
Interrogator-Chaplain in Terminator Armor 20 more points gets you a storm bolter, a 2+ save, +1 wound, and teleport strike.
There are a few cases where this is really to your advantage, as a 2+ save is twice as durable as a 3+ save vs AP0 weapons. In most cases though, you will be just relying upon your invlun save.
I think this is a worthwhile 20 point upgrade. It was not worth the 40 points it cost before the CA2018 update.
Asmodai Asmodai comes in at 130 points for basically a Interrogator-Chaplain combined with an ancient.
You could potentially combine his aura with an ancient for +2 attacks per model.
Given that the regular Interrogator-Chaplain is only 80 points, I just can't justify the extra 50 points for that aura.
Chaplain A regular chaplain is only 8 points cheaper than a Interrogator-Chaplain.
Those 8 points give you an extra wound and the aura of dread -- well worth the upgrade.
Given those upgrade options, I don't see any reason to take the plain chaplain over the Interrogator-Chaplain.
Primaris Chaplain These guys are 3 points cheaper than the Interrogator-Chaplain.
They come with an extra wound and attack over the plain chaplain -- only losing the option for jump pack assault. They also get the absolver bolt pistol, which is a nice upgrade for a pistol.
The problem with all these chaplains is simple -- DA are more of a shooting based army vs an assault based army. In nearly every instance, it's better just to grab a master to give ranged auras. If you want to go with assault marines, bring a detachment of BA or SW.
Ezekial Ezekial is 39 more points than a stock librarian, and he gives some nice options for those 39 points.
He has a better WS and BS, he beefed up force sword, he has an extra wound and a 2+/4++ save.
Ezekial can also deny 2 powers a turn, where other librarians can only deny one.
Just to add to the mix, he has an aura which can be a real bummer for that DP that just wiped out a terminator squad, which then pile in and get 1 more attack each.
Librarian There is nothing special about these guys compared to librarians of other chapters. The only unique thing about them is that they know powers from the Interromancy discipline.
Primaris Librarian For only 5 more points, the Primaris librarian comes with 1 extra wound and 1 extra attack.
There are very few reasons you would ever want to take a plain librarian over a Primaris version.
Librarian in Terminator Armor For 20 more points you get terminator armor for your librarian, increasing the wounds and save.
The librarian also gains a 5++ save. While not game breaking, this save actually useful to the librarian -- unlike the chaplain or master.
If you are going to take a stock librarian, this is a worthwhile upgrade. If you are already throwing down 20 points to upgrade your librarian, you should consider another 19 for Ezekial.
Master Masters got a small boost to their master-crafted boltguns with the bolter discipline rule. Otherwise they are still fairly plain.
77 points gets you a master that will let units near him reroll 1s. You can spend some points to make him more of a beatstick -- but he will never come close to a DP for that potential.
Master in Terminator Armor Terminator armor increases the cost of your master by 21 points.
Stock they come in at 106 points -- though I suggest swapping out the relic blade for a power fist to get the free wrist mounted gernade launcher.
If you are going with a deathwing theme and want to bring a master, but don't want to shell out the 150 points for Belial, this is a decent option.
Master in Cataphractii Armor You can save 7 points and bring your master in Cataphractii Armor, giving him a 3++ save but lowering the move to 4".
Given how weak chainfists are, you might want to swap out for a different weapon.
As masters are generally more of a gunline support and counter-punch this is not a bad option.
Primaris Master A Primaris Master is 4 more points than a plain Master, and gives 1 more attack and wound - -making it an exceptional investment.
They get to have a master crafted auto-bolt rifle, which is a margianal upgrade over the regular master. Adding a power sword for 4 points is also a great addition.
Master in Gravis Armor This master is 35 more points than the Primaris Master. This guy is one of the big losers of the CA2018 book.
The boltstorm gauntlet is basically a power fist that did not get a price drop. Sure, it is also a pistol with 3 shots, but it's overall very underwhelming for the cost.
For 125 points, I can think of much better characters to bring.
Overall, masters are decent for increasing the shooting of nearby units. If a unit is normally hitting on a 3+, it increases the to hit chances from 2/3 to 5/9. This is a 20% increase in damage output. If hitting on a 4+ (like using a heavy weapon and moving) then the damage output increases by 16%. For the record, you can get this same damage increase by using Lieutenants.
Since DA come with grim resolve, masters' aura brings less value than other auras.
Lieutenants These guys are 63 points a pop before any upgrades.
Their aura is to reroll to-wound results of 1 vs roll to-hit rolls. Generally this offers less of an advantage, as most of your weapons will be wounding on a 4+ or worse. If your Lieutenant is near units that are wounding on a 3+ or better, then they are generally more effective than your master for damage output increases.
One of the nice perks of Lieutenants is that 1-2 come in a squad, so you could spam 6 of them into your army if you so choose.
Given the grim resolve aura that come with all DA, there is a lot of value in bringing lieutenants.
Techmarines Techmarines got a hidden boost with the 2018CA. Servo-arms, which used to cost 12, now cost 0.
This means they are only 50 points base, and if you bring a servo-harness they go up to 61 points -- well worth the upgrade cost.
As an added bonus they can also repair DA vehicles for d3 wounds, and come with a 2+ save.
For a cheap HQ, these are pretty decent. I've written up a few lists full of dreadnaughts and techmarines to be the HQ.
Primaris Lieutenants Other Primaris versions dropped in price with the CA2018 release, but these guys stayed the same. They are a full 10 points more expensive than a regular Lieutenant for an extra attack and wound.
I see no reason to take these guys.
Tactical Squad These guys got a boost with the bolter discipline rule, and got a few hidden point drops. A Plasma cannon dropped 5 points, and a melta gun dropped 3 points.
10 of these guys costs 160 points equipped as such. These guys are just underwhelming for their cost.
Intercessor Squads These guys also got a nice boost, with the CA2018 release and the new bolter discipline rule.
Auxiliary grenade launchers are also now free, which gives the option of throwing krak gernades at vehicles.
10 of these guys standing still are throwing 20 STR 4 shots at 30" with -1 AP for 170 points. They are also rerolling 1's to hit.
I plan on bringing 20 of these in most of my lists from now on.
Scout Squads Before the bolter discipline rule, these models were always used with sniper rifles - now regular bolter scouts could be useful.
5 of these guys with a 4 bolters and 1 ML cost only 75 points. Given that they can deploy using concealed positions, they make for very solid objective campers.
These guys mix very well with the grim resolve rule, as they will usually just be sitting on an objective.
Summary There are only really 2 choices for troops in the DA army. Scouts and Intercessors.
If you are playing ITC missions, holding objectives is critical to earning points, and defenders of humanity gives a huge advantage in this regard. I'm looking at 20 Intercessors and 10 scouts as standard. That gives you troops on 3 objectives for 490 points, throwing 40 bolt rifle, 18 bolter and 2 MLs a turn.
Primaris Apothecary For 13 more points than a plain Apothecary, you can upgrade yours to a Primaris. Gives gives you 1 more wound, and dual wielded pistols (though one only had a 3" range).
Personally I don't think the Primaris version is worth it.
Apothecary The main reason to bring an Apothecary is to heal your other units. If, every round, your Apothecary is healing a unit, they can bring ~3 models back from the dead over the course of a game, or they can heal up to 6 wounds on a character.
Given a base cost of 55 points, bringing Intercessors back would bring back 51 points worth of models -- resulting in a net loss of points. Bringing back 3 deathwing would bring back 96 points. This means the effectiveness of your Apothecary is directly related to the quality of your units.
If you are bringing multiple high quality units, an Apothecary can be worth the cost. If you are spamming cheaper units, leave him at home.
Company Ancient The ancient's statline is roughly the same as a Lieutenant, so you are effectively paying the points for the banner.
The banner lets your units get one extra use of shooting/fighting before they die. How effective this is really depends on the units that you have.
Over the course of a game, a unit will have, at most 6 rounds of shooting. If your unit is destroyed on turn 4, then 1/3 of their shooting potential is lost. This banner saves you some of that loss potential. One way to think of this would be to add 1/6 to the cost of every unit, as if it dies it would get an additional round of shooting.
Much like an Apothecary, you are hedging your bets that the cost of the Ancient will make up for the extra shots you get from the units.
Primaris Ancient For 27 more points you can upgrade to a primaris, getting 1 more wound and 1 more attack.
This is not worth it, and should be avoided.
Company Champion 40 points gets you a character that will engage other characters in a heroic intervention.
While the Blade of Caliban is very effective, the champion only gets 3 attacks so won't stop something like a DP in it's tracks.
Given that DA are more of a 'stand back and shoot' army, I'm less inclined to bring these. While I like them, I just don't think they are the best models out there -- still for 40 points, they are very affordable.
Company Veterans These guys went down to 14ppm with the CA2018 release.
Storm shields are also only 2 PPM for these guys. You can swap their bolt pistol for one.
Storm bolters can be swapped for their chainsword.
This means for 90 points, you can bring 5 guys with storm bolters and storm shields, which throws 20 shots at 24" with a 3++ save. If you are looking for pure storm bolter firepower, this is a cheap way to deliver.
The main issue is that these squads are limited to 5 in size. In a competitive setting, you will be limited to only 3 squads, or 15 of these guys.
Deathwing Apothecary For 20 more points, you get to upgrade the apothecary to terminator armor.
This adds 1 extra wound, but oddly enough lowers 1 attack. It gives the Apothecary a storm bolter, which is a nice upgrade.
If you are running a deathwing themed army, this is the way to go for an apothecary. The problem is that at 77 points, the RoI for your apothecary is less effective. You are hedging that you will bring back 3 deathwing back a game.
Chapter Ancient This option is effectively paying 85 points for a slightly better version of the Company Ancient, giving their last attack a BS/WS of 2+.
The extra cost for this upgrade is 22 points. Personally I don't think this upgrade is worth the cost.
Deathwing Ancient The deathwing ancient clocks in at 112 with gear. Unlike other ancients, his aura gives all deathwing units within 6" +1 attack. This could be combined with Asmodai to give your deathing 4 attacks per model, and allowing them to reroll their missed attacks in the fight phase.
This is a fairly heavy investment of points, but could be a surprise to someone who gets to close to your deathwing. 40 powerfist swings hitting 75% of the time will deliver 30 hits, compared to the 10 hits the same squad would normally deliver.
What is the difference between the two? The first would be a hurt knight, the second would be a dead knight.
Deathwing Terminator Squad These guys got a lot better with the CA2018 update and Bolter Discipline rule. A basic deathwing now clocks in at 32 points, giving a model with a 2+/5++, 4 shots with a SB, and a PF.
Unlike ultramarine terminators, there is no such thing as a 'terminator assault squad'. You can mix and match LC or TH/SS terminators in with the SB marines. This would be great if they were not incredibly overpriced. Even with the cost reduction for the storm shield, a TH/SS termie still runs 41 points. A LC terminator runs 34 points, even more than PF/SB version. In summary, while the idea of bringing CC termies mixed in with your shooting ones sounds great, the cost-benifit is just not worth it.
The CML is the heavy weapon of choice, as it -- when combined with the storm bolter, only costs 40 points. It has gotten cheaper, and still allows for the SB to throw out 4 dice. If you have the spare points to throw them into a squad, it's well worth it.
The watcher is a 2/3 deny for an incoming power. This will usually be a smite, and will -- on average, kill 1 terminator. On average this means that you will save 21 points of terminators for this 5 point upgrade. As many armies have psychic powers, if you have a spare 5 points lying around, this is worthwhile.
Deathwing are all Inner Circle, which means they don't are about any morale. This is a minor upgrade over grim resolve.
While 10 TEQ with 2+/5++ and 20 wounds sounds great, the reality is that they are still picked up in droves. Keep these guys hidden when possible, so those -3 AP supercharged plasma guns only knock you down to a 4+ save instead of your 5++.
Deathwing Knights Assault terminators are overpriced. Deathwing Knights, after getting a cost reduction with the CA2018 codex are just about right on cost.
Coming in at 35 points, they come with a more effective thunder hammer/SS, and get a flail of the unforgiven.
One squad of 10 of these coming in via teleport strike could put a lot of needed pressure on a specific area of the board.
Deathwing Cataphractii Terminators with a 4++ are pretty handy. The 4" base move is extremely slow, however, so they won't get a lot of movement on the board.
You can give them all a single LC to save a point, but the PF is a bit better, as it's STR 8 with -3 AP and 2 wounds per hit on average.
When you take into consideration the new bolter discipline rule, there is no reason to take a heavy flamer with these guys. Just use them at 35 point bolter caddies that are hard to dislodge with a 4++.
Deathwing Tartaros These terminators have some nice options over the plain deathwing terminators.
They can bring reaper autocannons, which are nice tools and only 10 points with the CA2018 update.
Generally I think that normal Deathwing Terminators are better than Tartaros terminators. If you want to bring more than 3 squads of terminators, this is the next place to go.
Dreadnought These units got nice boosts in CA2018. Their base cost went down, and the cost of their weapons went down.
A dread with a twin LC, DCCW, and SB runs only 132 points.
The dread can take advantage of grim resolve, not needed a master to let them reroll 1s when they are standing on the backline offering fire support.
The dread is dangerous in assault, with a STR 12 -3AP 3 wound weapon swinging 4 times a round. I've used them to kill ork warbosses, DPs, and razorbacks. Dedicated CC units charging the dread can kill it before it can swing, but when the dread gets to activate first -- it can do serious damage.
That DCCW is why I don't suggest bringing a ML on them. The DCCW turns them into a valid threat in assault to pillow fighting in assault. That extra missile per round is not worth the loss of utility.
Dreadnoughts also have less than 10 wounds, which means they never degrade in profile. They also count as a vehicle, which allows for techmaines to heal ~2 wounds per turn.
Venerable Dreadnought For 20 more points, you get a better WS/BS and you ignore a wound 1/6 of the time (which results in 1.33~ more wounds)
Grim resolve works more effectively with the 2+ WS. The unit goes from hitting 7/9 of the time (78%) to 35/36 of the time (97%). If you have a Lieutenant near your Venerable Dreadnought, you are going to be wounding with your LC nearly every time. (35/36)hit * (7/9)wound
Contemptor Dreadnought For 142 points, you get a MM Dreadnought with a degrading profile.
The 5+ invlun save means the dread will be getting about 13 wounds before it dies, making it roughly twice as durable as a plain Dreadnought. Until it only has 2 wounds left, it's profile is still as good as a plain Dreadnought, and hits like a Venerable Dreadnought at 6+ wounds.
This Dreadnought is obviously more of a 'in your face' kind of Dreadnought vs a supporting fire Dreadnought. It weapon has a shorter range and has half as many shots.
Redemptor Dreadnought This Dreadnought is base 105 points and can carry a large array of weapons. Unlike the other Dreadnoughts, the Redemptor fist's cost is included with the dread cost, making the real base cost of this Dreadnought closer to 75 points.
The Heavy Onslaught Cannon and Macro Plasma Incinerator have a difference in 1 point of cost. The Heavy Onslaught Cannon is akin to having 4 heavy bolters tied together with twine. The Macro Plasma Incinerator is akin to a twin PC with a slightly better AP and STR. Personally I think the Macro Plasma Incinerator is a slightly better option, given that the army already has a great many number of bolter shots.
The Heavy Flamer will hit 3.5 times, where the Onlaught Cannon will only shoot 3 times, hitting twice -- however the Onlaught Cannon will get a lot more shots than the Heavy Flamer. Both are solid options, depending on how you want to play your Redemptor Dreadnought.
You will want to grab two storm bolters over the Fragstorm Gernade Launchers. The storm bolters now shoot more times are half the cost. It's a no brainer.
The Icarus Rocket Pod is half of a Reaper Auto Cannoon that is slighly better against flyers and slightly worse against ground troops. For the cost of 7 points, this is optional - but far from a must-have.
Durability-wise, the Redemptor Dreadnought is right alongside the Contemptor Dreadnought, but has a worse degrading profile.
The entire package will run you around 155 points -- putting it slightly more expensive than a standard Venerable Dreadnought with a TLLC. It's a solid choice.
Ravenwing Apothecary The Ravenwing Apothecary comes with one more wound and toughness than a plain Apothecary.
He also moves 14", giving a great deal more flexibility to get to where he needs to be in order to heal a unit. This is balanced by the cost of 92 points, making the RoI much harder to reach.
This unit comes with a Plasma Talon, which is a fantastic weapon. A Ravenwing Black Knight comes with one of these, and is 38 points stock. If you consider that you are getting this extra 'black knight', the cost of this Apothecary drops to 54 points -- a very reasonable amount for getting the RoI.
Overall, I think this is the best way to go if you are going to bring an Apothecary. The speed and extra wounds make this unit worth it.
Ravenwing Ancient The Ravenwing Ancient, much like the Ravenwing Apothecary, comes with a Plasma Talon.
He also brings the Ravenwing Banner, which like the Deathwing Banner, gives an extra attack to all Ravenwing units. This can be useful if you are using a squad of Ravenwing Black Knights.
Ravenwing Champion The Ravenwing Ancient is much like the other champions, designed to battle other mid-level characters.
Unlike the other champions, the Ravenwing Champion has a 14" move, can Jink and comes with a Plasma Talon.
While the model clocks in at a premium 106 points, he brings a lot to the table.
If you are planning on running an 'in your face' ravenwing army, I could see someone wanting to bring one.
Aggressor Squad Aggressor have an extra toughness and 1 less movement than Intercessors and are 4 more points per model.
They can either fire twice if they stand still, or advance and shoot assault weapons with no modification to hit. The latter helps greatly with their short move.
Aggressors come with either Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets or Flamestorm Gauntlets. Both options count as a power fist in assault.
The Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets are 12 points. If you consider that a PF is 7 points, you are effectivly paying 5 points for a 6 shot storm bolter with 18" range -- which is fairly lackluster. If the Aggressors stay still, they get to shoot the boltstorm gauntlets twice, for 12 shots each -- in addition to taking advantage of Grim Resolve.
The Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets also mean the Aggressor has to take a Fragstorm Gernade Launcher for 4 points -- which is an average of 3.5 extra bolter shots per round of shooting. Again, if the Aggressor stands still, this gets a little more interesting as that is 7 'bolter' shots from the Fragstorm Gernade Launcher and another 12 from the Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets. A squad of 3 of these well placed can deliver 57 shots -- a respectable amount.
When configured this way, the Aggressors run 37 points each.
Flamestorm gauntlets give 2d6 attacks that auto hit from 8" away. Given that these auto hit, it's the equilivant of ~9 bolter shots. If standing still, each model will deliver ~14 hits. While the Flamestorm gauntlet Aggressor only comes in at 36 points, it is giving up one advantage of Grim Resolve.
My overall view is that Aggressors are to expensive for what they deliver. 19 bolter shots per model if standing still is amazing damage per point, but they are extremely fragile at only T5 with 2 wounds and a 3++. If you are going to run with Azrael this is a good place for him.
Servitors These guys got a lot cheaper with the CA2018 release, since the servo-arm is now free. They have dropped from 14 points to 5 points.
Now the bad news. They are hitting with that on 6s. If there is a friendly tech-marine within 6", then they are hitting on 5+ with the servo arm.
For 5 points per model, they are not bad.
Reiver Squad Reivers are 18 points per model, and fill the role of 'assault primaris' marines.
They come stock with an assault 2 bolter and a heavy bolt pistol. They can swap out either one of those for a combat knife, which grants them an extra attack.
If you are willing to bump their cost to 20, you can have them use a grav-chute which deploys them anywhere on the battlefield. This can be useful for putting pressure on enemy forces.
Summary There are 23 different elite choices to choose from. This lends strongly to vanguard formations to bring those extra elite slots.
There are lots of different options you can choose from here, and most of them are decent.
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Fast Attack
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Spoiler:
Scout Bike Squad These guys are decent now. They are 23 points per model with a twin boltgun.
They don't get jink, and are not Ravenwing, which makes them a bit weaker than regular Ravenwing bike squads.
Assault Marines There is not much to say about these guys. They are 15 points with a jump pack, with a 12" move. They have bolt pistol and chainsword. They can swap out for 2 flamers.
DA are not normally an assault based army, and using DA assault marines is like shoving a square peg in a round hole. Grim Resolve does not lend itself well to this playstyle.
If you really want to bring assault troops, bring a BA or SW detachment.
Inceptor Squad These models clock in at 25 points each. They are Gravis marines with a 10" move.
The squad has the option of taking assault bolters, which are effectively 2 short ranged HBs for 20 points, or two plasma exterminators for 34 points, which are assault plasma guns. This makes them either 45 or 59 points for a 2 wound, 3++ model.
They have great firepower, are fast, but they are just so expensive for how fragile they are. I really want to like these models, as they are beautiful models -- but they are just so lackluster in the game.
Ravenwing Attack Bike Squad Attack bikes are down to just 25 points per model before wargear. If you have a HB and twin boltgun, they run 37 points per model. Alternatively, they can swap the HB out for a MM for 22 points, making the entire bike 48 points.
48 points for a 4 wound model that has a heavy weapon is not bad.
Ravenwing Bike Squad Ravenwing bikes dropped to 21 bikes stock, and 23 with the twin boltgun.
You can take up to 8 of them in one squad, for a total of 184 points that can shoot 32 bolter shots at 24".
Up to two of the models can take special weapons. Unlike previous editions of 40k, a model can shoot all of their guns, which means they can fire the twin bolter and a normal weapon. For 12 points, you can add two flamers to the unit to gain some versatility.
They can take one attack bike with the rest of the bikes. This can be a useful tool if you are looking to gain some extra wounds for the squad.
The biggest challenge with this squad is their footprint on the table is quite large.
Ravenwing Land Speders Ravenwing Land Speeders got a price drop of 20 points per model. They frame is now only 50 points -- twice as much as an attack bike. For those extra 25 points, the land speeder gains 2 more wounds, 2" more move (6" if 3 more more speeders are in a unit), and the ability to fly. Where attack bikes are limited to HBs and MMs, the Land Speeders can get a much broader array of weapon loadouts.
For an extra 38 points per model, you can give them typhoon missile launchers, which fire 2 missiles per turn.
A squad of 5 speeders with 5 HBs and 5 typhoon missile launchers would cost 490 points. Thats a highly mobile firing platform throwing 10 krak missiles and 15 HB shots a round.
You can take a multimelta and heavy flamer on a land speeder for 86 points. While a single multi-melta hit is not going to destory a land raider any more, like in 5th edition, it has a good chance to knock off ~4 wounds off a model. A squad of 5 of these will put some serious hurting on a knight. The heavy flamers shooting 5d6 times will also do some damage to horde armies. 5 speeders equipped like this would run 430 points.
You can also mix and match other weapon loadouts. You could get a few MM speeders and a few typhoon missile launcher speeders. I would suggest keeping them focused on either long or short ranged, but you could do either.
One key element here is that they get pricy fast. 430 points goes a long way, and investing this into five T5 models with a 3+ save -- even with 30 wounds -- is just a large amount of points in a very fragile platform.
Ravenwing DarkShroud The Ravenwing DarkShroud runs either 138 or 150, depending on if it comes with a heavy bolter or assault cannon.
This model's main role is to provide your army with a -1 to hit buff against shooting for your units.
How useful is the -1 to hit? It depends on what is targeting your unit. If your unit is getting targeted by a weapon that normally hits on a 4+, then going to hit on a 5+ pretty good. If you are getting hit on a 5+, then that -1 doubles your durability.
Given that this vehicle will be targeted first, the Ravenwing DarkShroud will likely be jinking every round, so
Ravenwing Land Speeder Vengeance The options for this speeder are to take a heavy bolter or assault cannon -- and the heavy bolter is the odvious choice as it has the same range as the plasma storm battery. This sets the model at 132 points.
The plasma storm battery is 13.3% less effective than two plasma cannons (shooting 3.5 times a turn instead of 4 times a turn).
Plasma cannons dropped 5 points in the CA2018 release, nearly 25% of their price. The Ravenwing Land Speeder Vengeance, which has the cost of the plasma storm battery bundled into the vehicle, did not decrease in price. This means that GW acknowledged that this weapon was overpriced but did not lower the cost of the Ravenwing Land Speeder accordingly.
Currently you are paying 90 points for the land speeder hull. While it does have 9 wounds, this speeder hull should be closer to 70 points. At this point, it's just more effective to take a regular land speeder and give it a Typhoon Missle Launcher.
Ravenwing Black Knights The guys got a point drop with the CA2018 codex down 8 points per model, putting them at 17 more points per model than regular Ravenwing Bikes.
What do they get for that extra cost? They get +1 attack, Plasma talons and corvus hammers. Plasma talons are basically assault plasma guns. Corvus hammers are nice weapons that give +1 STR, -1 AP and any wound rolls of a 6 will do D3 wounds instead of 1 wound. This squad can deliver some punch in CC.
A squad of 10 of these knights will set you back 380 points. They hit like a truck but are very fragile.
Summary The real winners in here are bikes. You can really load up some units, like land speeders, with lots of heavy weapons. The problem is that they can cost you a great deal of points very quickly, putting you at a competitive disadvantage to other armies.
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Heavy support
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Spoiler:
Devastator Squad These guys have not changed that much in the past 15 years. Marines with heavy weapons, with your first five marines costing 65 points. You can add bullet catchers for 13 points per model so you are not losing heavy weapons with your first casualties.
The Armorium Cherub is a nice perk, letting your unit get an extra shot with a heavy weapon. As each game only gives you 6 shots with a heavy weapon, getting a free shot is helpful -- especially given that there is no cost.
They got a little better with the CA2018 release, as many of the heavy weapons dropped in price. This means 4 PCs inside a squad will run you 129 points if you have just 1 bullet catcher. This is cheaper than a Ravenwing Land Speeder Vengeance with over twice the shots.
Devastator Squads pair nicely with Grim Resolve. You will probably be putting a squad up in a ruin or other building and leave them there all game. Since they are not moving, they will reroll 1s to hit.
I think that one squad of these is the perfect number to add to an army. Spamming these is not effective, as they can only be placed in so many places on the battlefield.
Hellblaster Squad The Primaris Devastator squad. Unlike the Devastator's, the Hellblasters all have long range plasma guns.
Unlike the Intercessors, the Hellblasters did not drop in price.
If you take the assault plasma incinerator, the Hellblasters run 35 points per model. If you go with the rapid fire version, they run 33 points per model. The rapid fire ones have a longer range, but only double tap when within 15". Both are valid choices, and it's up to you which you perfer.
He heavy plasma incinerator variants will also run you 35 points per model. They will never be able to double tap, so you are losing 50% of your shots. Every time you don't move, you can use the supercharge ability as it stacks with Grim Resolve - this allows you to shoot STR 9, AP -4, D2 shots. These will put a hurting on any high armor target quickly. 5 Hellblasters equipped in such a way will set you back 175 points.
Predator This unit got slighly cheaper in the CA2018 release due to the decrease in cost of a twin lascannon.
A single lascannon still runs 25 points, which means that the 4 LC pred is not as good of a deal. It might be better to run with just HB sponsons.
The predator autocannon did not decrease in price. It's still a solid weapon, shooting ~4 shots that do 3 damage a pop. It still does the job of destroying light armor like a champ.
The HK missile is now only 6 points. As it's a 1 shot item, I'm still not sold on it. Over the course of a game, you should get 6 shots with a unit (provided it's not destroyed), which means the HK is a ML that costs 6*(number of turns the unit lives). If the unit dies on turn 2, then the HK was a great buy, as the same ML equivalent would have cost 20 points. If the unit lives to round 4, then the RoI starts to fall behind.
Overall, I think the predator is just not worth the points. 90 points for a T7 chassis that degrades is just not the best platform for weapons. I would rather pay 60 points for a dreadnaught that can also threaten units in close combat.
Hunter This unit also got a price drop down to 80 points.
This unit basically has a lascannon that's slighly better vs flying and worse vs non-flying. It can take a storm bolter, and for two points, it's always worth adding.
Is this unit worth it? 80 points for a lascannon is not a great buy, but it does come with an 11 wound delivery mechanism.
Stalker Basically a hunter with a 3 shot autocannon on it for 75 points.
Whirlwind The vengance launcher is a solid weapon. You are effectivly paying 104 points for an indirect weapon that is great at killing tough targets. It's the perfect tool to kill daemon princes.
Land Raider These dropped quite a bit of points with the CA2018 release. The base land raider dropped effectively 59 points, meaning that a LR stocked with two twin LCs, a twin HB, and a storm bolter runs 299 points.
That's rock solid for the point cost. For about twice the cost of ven dread, you are getting twice the firepower and roughly double the durability. PotMS means that while moving the LR has the same 'to hit' as a ven dread that moved.
The LR is also a transport. It can be used to deliver assault troops, or can be used to hide a squad that is near death.
If you have ever played with Land Raiders, you will also know they are effectively mobile terrain. They are such giant pieces they can be used to block LOS from most units.
Vindicator 125 points gets you a unit that can effectively fire two lascannon shots vs small units, and 3.5 lascannon shots vs large units.
There is little difference between STR 9 and STR 10 -- as most units will be wounded on a 3+ regardless. The only noticeable difference will be wounding T5 targets on a 2+ instead of a 3+.
The stock platform is 70 points, you are paying 55 points for the demolisher cannon. As a TLLC is now only 40 points, there are better platforms to put this weapon on.
Land Raider Crusader Like the LR, these dropped in points. The point drop is not as great as the LR, but the overall package is still cheaper, clocking in at 266 points.
This is a solid anti-infantry tool. It throws out 40 anti-infantry shots at 24" -- the same as 10 terminators. It can also be used to store 16 infantry inside.
I personally think this is one of the best buys of the codex after the CA2018 and Bolter Discipline rules.
Land Raider Redeemer Another winner in the point cost race as the base cost is now 180 for the frame.
The flamestorm cannons are still extremely pricy at 30 points a pop, meaning that with weapons the vehicle comes in at 288 points -- more than the LRC.
Is this better than the LRC? Well, that depends on what you plan on using them for. The LRC is better at staying back 24" and shooting at infantry. The LRR has to get within 8" to be effective, so it's a pretty clear delivery mechanism for heavy hitting infantry units.
The flamestorm cannon is a pretty solid weapon. 2d6STR 6, AP-2 D2 hits are good. That's ~7 hits per turn.
Summary With the drop in cost for plamsa cannons, I personally think you are better off running 5 Devastators with plasma cannons over 5 Hellblasters.
In regards to the vehicles, I think the LRC is the clear winner here. The Whirlwind also holds a lot of promise, but I almost never see them on the table.
Rhino Rhinos are a classic of a unit as Terminators for marines. With the buff to bolter discipline, you should always be taking dual storm bolters on your rhinos now, which makes them cost 74 points.
The Rhino is still pretty much the same vehicle it always was. It's a transport. T7, 10 wounds, and a 3+ save mean it's fairly tough. It can increase the speed of which a unit can get around the board until it starts to degrade.
The rhino can also be thought of to add some ablative wounds to your squad. It will cost about 7 points per wound you want to add to your squad. For even regular tacticals, this is still nearly have the price of a normal marine, meaning that for ablative wounds, the rhino is decent at protecting. Just disembark before the vehicle wrecks, or you will lose 1/6 of your embarked unit.
Overall though, Rhinos are still fairly lackluster IMHO. If they were 40 points, I could see bringing them, but at 70 points for the frame, they are just to expensive for what they do.
Razorback Let's take a rhino, and give it a heavy weapon! This is a great spot to put a twin lascannon, as they dropped in price and are now cheaper than a twin assault cannon. A twin heavy bolter is also a decent choice, but with bolter discipline, heavy bolters are not as needed as they once were.
Tossing a twin lascannon and SB onto this costs 112 points -- cheaper than a dread with the same armament. You can also use this to transport 5 marine bodies around, which can be useful.
Overall I think Razorbacks are decent.
Drop Pod The frame here dropped 20 points with the CA2018 codex.
It does what it always has. It drops a squad of 10 marines onto a specific spot. It also stays on the board as a T6, 8W, 3+ save vehicle that is great for holding an objective.
I can totally see someone dropping one of these and deploying some marines out on turn 2 to hold an objective that is uncontested by your opponent. This often happens if your opponent has chosen to castle or just focus their entire force on one half of the board.
Land Speeder Storm These models got slightly cheaper, now only costing 70 points to equip. With only a T5, 7W, and 4+ save, this vehicle will not weather a great deal of fire.
Point for point, using this as mobile firing bases is not very effective. Bolter discipline would require the scouts to stand still, which is not the point of a vehicle that can fly 18"
What it's really good at is getting your unit to their objective. The only problem is that scouts already can do this during deployment.
Repulsor This behemoth of a vehicle comes in at 185 for the frame, which is down from 215. With the base wargear, the stock Repulsor is 256 points.
There are some loadouts that you can swap for this vehicle, adding more anti-armor or adding more anti-infantry.
* You want to swap out the Icarus ironhail heavy stubber for a storm bolter -- which is just the better weapon.
* You want to add an additional ironhail heavy subber for 6 points.
This gives 2 ironhail heavy subbers, 3 storm bolters, 1 heavy onslaught gatling cannon, 2 fragstorm gernade launchers, and 1 twin HB. That's ~38 bolter-equse shots at 18" that can also transport 5 Gravis Primaris marines.
I'm not sold on this. I would rather take the LRC. The biggest advantage this vehicle brings is the ability to fly and the ability to transport aggressors. Those are nice perks, and should not be ignored -- I just don't think they are worth the cost.
Summary Transports in this book are not auto-take. The winners are the Razorbacks and Drop Pods. Rhinos and LSS's are fairly lackluster, and the Repulsor is good if you have a specific purpose in mind
Dark Talons These things were bumped to 180 points before wargear in 2017. They come with dual hurricane bolters putting their after-wargear cost to 200.
They come with a variety of different rules like 'hard to hit' and 'strafing run' that just make this unit even better.
They are still solid for the cost. The rift cannon does lots of damage to heavy targets like Knights, and the hurricane bolters just got better.
Nephilim Jetfighter These start at 123 points for the frame. If you take the avenger mega bolter, the total cost is 175 which makes a decent anti-infantry unit throwing out 16 dice. The blacksword missiles are good against light armor targets, with a STR 7, -3 AP, D2 being very decent.
Swapping out the megabolter for the twin LC only increases the cost by 5 points. This changes the role of the Nephilim to more of an anti-armor loadout.
Stormraven Gunship These did not get a price decrease directly from the CA2018 codex, but got one indirectly. The frame is 192 points, which did not change -- but the weapons you can put on it has changed.
Twin heavy plasma cannons dropped to 24 points. The twin HB can be swapped for a twin MM or typhoon ML -- both of which are solid choices. It has to take 2 stormstrike ML's and you always want to take the twin hurricane bolters.
The resulting firepower is the following, all of which does not suffer a penalty for shooting heavy weapons.
* 24 STR 4, AP 0, D1 bolter shots
* 2 STR 8, AP -4, D1d6 MM shots
* 4 STR 7, AP -3, D1 PC shots (with possible supercharge)
* 2 STR 8, AP -3, D3 missiles
As an added bonus, you can transport 12 infantry and 1 dreadnought.
The problem is the cost. With this loadout, the cost is 318 points. For a T7, 14 wound vehicle, it's just not worth the cost. At ~250, these would be worth it, but right now you are better off taking land raiders.
Didn't read past traits due to time and all this has probably already been talked about a thousand time I guess but :
Jink : It's "meh" because you have it on shooty elements which can't shoot if they advance unless you pay 1CP. So it's ok to use on one unit per turn. Still nice to have of course if you need the extra resilience and don't need to shoot, like a dark shroud or if you need to grab an objective.
Inner circle : It's "meh" for small units because of grim resolve + ATSKNF. It's ok-ish on the big ones.
Grim Resolve : It's ok, nothing extraordinary. There is a lot of stuff in a marine/DA army that wants to move (maybe less now with bolter discipline). Losing max one miniature to moral is nice but it's also on top of ATSKNF. Kinda same issue than inner circle. It's not bad, it's just more of the same (some models have 3 moral mitigating rules...)
Fury of the lion : It's +1S for ALL DA in 6 inches. Not just the character, it's a decent-ish warlord trait enabling some fun stuff you wouldn't be able to do otherwise.
For example, if you take Asmodai as your warlord, you are able to give +1A, +1S and reroll hits in the fight phase to all DA in 6 inches. Add to that moral shenanigans and/or other characters and you have a decent surprise (nothing over the top but it kinda works).
Master of Manoeuvre : I don't think DA is a stand & shoot army. And DA kinda has a decent amount of element able to use this trait (for some reason you want to deepstrike termies and charge ? Maybe you should have a master of manoeuvre nearby)
Fury of the lion : It's +1S for ALL DA in 6 inches. Not just the character, it's a decent-ish warlord trait enabling some fun stuff you wouldn't be able to do otherwise.
For example, if you take Asmodai as your warlord, you are able to give +1A, +1S and reroll hits in the fight phase to all DA in 6 inches. Add to that moral shenanigans and/or other characters and you have a decent surprise (nothing over the top but it kinda works).
The problem with that one is the need for the warlord to charge, be charged or execute a heroic intervention
Brilliant Strategist does not grant a free CP. That's an Azrael-specific thing. The trait lets you gain a CP on a 5+, and it gives you a free reroll of a hit, wound, or save roll. Still the best trait in the book hands down.
And in the Stratagems, you can't forget one of the most useful ones Dark Angels have access to: Intractable. If you have a powerful unit like Hellblasters or a Land Raider that got locked in combat and had to fall back, being able to spend 2 CP to let them still shoot is cash money.
Now, as for LVO results:
Aaron Wisch had the highest finish of all the DA primary lists, coming in 68th. He faced a variety of opponents, including Drukhari, Marines, Tau, and Imperial Knights, and his only loss was to an Eldar Soup list with 3 Alaitoc flyers in it. He had one draw against Knights with Custodes Jetbike Captains and the Loyal 32 for a final record of 4-1-1. Not too shabby for a mid-tier army!
Shaun Sharp's DA Dreads with Guard Support was the next best DA list, with a 4-2 record. He finished 136th. His losses were to Eldar Soup and a weird Space Wolves list with a Falchion in it. Still a pretty strong showing to go 4-2 in the most competitive environment imaginable.
None of the other DA lists did better than 3-3, and most went 2-4. Alaitoc Flyers seemed to be the bane of most of the lists, as from what I could tell only one of the DA players who faced them won their game. This makes sense really, as our best damage dealers are plasma weapons and they don't like all the negative hit modifiers at all. I went through and took notes on what armies each DA player faced and which they won against to try to figure out what we consistently struggle against, but really the data was inconclusive other than the Alaitoc flyer thing (but let's be honest they give a lot of armies fits). I might also say we tend to do well against other Marines (loyalist and Chaos), but then Marines in general aren't the pinnacle of the game currently.
Fury of the lion : It's +1S for ALL DA in 6 inches. Not just the character, it's a decent-ish warlord trait enabling some fun stuff you wouldn't be able to do otherwise.
For example, if you take Asmodai as your warlord, you are able to give +1A, +1S and reroll hits in the fight phase to all DA in 6 inches. Add to that moral shenanigans and/or other characters and you have a decent surprise (nothing over the top but it kinda works).
The problem with that one is the need for the warlord to charge, be charged or execute a heroic intervention
Note that much of an issue when you're planning to make use of it but yeah, it's not an "always on" aura.
I am in the middle of a six-round Club Championships with forty players. My 2000 point list has:
Battalion: Azrael, Primaris Lt, 2 x Intercessor Squads, 1 x Scout Squad, 1 x Devastator Squad, 1 x Aggressor Squad and 1 x Hellblaster Squad (nine dudes)
Outrider (Ravenwing Attack Sqn) - Sammael, Talonmaster, Black Knigts x 9, Dark Shroud, Attack Bike
Game 1 vs Admech. He had a Knight and two Armigers; an Iron Hands Battalion with three squads and an Admech force with Cawl, two walkers and four Robots. The first game was for kill points and included random Ambulls appearing and attacking. I went first and dropped both of his Armigers with the Black Knights and Hellblasters. In Turn 2 I dropped his Knight but he brought it back with two wounds. I finished off the Knight in Turn 3 along with his tactical marines. After four turns I was nestled in a corner. He wounded my Hellblasters and Black Knights but both units were alive and I could play keep-away against his robots securing the win. The Ravenwing Stratagem from Vigilus was handy in allowing my Black Knights to supercharge without fear.
Game 2 vs Orks. He had three big Boyz (Evil Sunz), Bad Moons artillery and a massive unit of Lootas screened by Grots. This game ended on turn 1 when his Lootas wiped out both my Hellblasters and Black Knights. I hadn't met the new Lootas. They can put out an eye-watering amount of damage about which you can really do nothing. I have to rethink my list/strategy if I continue to face lists like this! You can't turtle behind terrain as you get swamped. You can't sit in the open either! Those Grots keep the Lootas alive. Ah well.
Game 3 vs Necrons. He had three battalions of Necrons with plenty of supporting characters. We were playing a mission with "supply crates" that you had to capture (and could move) over a snow-filled terrain that slowed movement by 2 inches. The first turn was a little ropey, but Sammael and the Talonmaster hit their stride and started deleting units.
The Hellblasters and Black Knights were great in the first game against high-wound targets but a bit of a liability against the more "hordey" lists I then faced. Sammael and the Talonmaster are great. I am eying a Supreme Command with Sammael and two Talonmasters...
Three more games tomorrow. The missions are really funky (one has a NPC Warhound Titan) and you don't really know what to expect. There are three other Dark Angels players in the tourney.
None of the other DA lists did better than 3-3, and most went 2-4. Alaitoc Flyers seemed to be the bane of most of the lists, as from what I could tell only one of the DA players who faced them won their game. This makes sense really, as our best damage dealers are plasma weapons and they don't like all the negative hit modifiers at all. I went through and took notes on what armies each DA player faced and which they won against to try to figure out what we consistently struggle against, but really the data was inconclusive other than the Alaitoc flyer thing (but let's be honest they give a lot of armies fits). I might also say we tend to do well against other Marines (loyalist and Chaos), but then Marines in general aren't the pinnacle of the game currently.
That's why you can't rely solely on plasma for heavy duty for DAs. You have to figure hard to hit flyers will be present and plan accordingly.
So, I've seen people take supporting knights for their marine armies, but I haven't seen anyone take House Mortan. A simple Crusader with RFBC, Avenger Gatling (preferably Endless Fury) can play a 1CP strat that ignores all modifiers when shooting. So the often -3 to hit CHEs would still be hit on 3's. Same for Skyweavers etc. No Aeldari platform can take that many hits, not when they max at T6. Of course, you have the issue of Agents of Vect, which might just give them the time they need to take the knight down with haywire before that strat could be utilized. Other downside is that it is Imperialis instead of Mechanicus so has no defence vs the mortal wound output.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: I am in the middle of a six-round Club Championships with forty players. My 2000 point list has:
Battalion: Azrael, Primaris Lt, 2 x Intercessor Squads, 1 x Scout Squad, 1 x Devastator Squad, 1 x Aggressor Squad and 1 x Hellblaster Squad (nine dudes)
Outrider (Ravenwing Attack Sqn) - Sammael, Talonmaster, Black Knigts x 9, Dark Shroud, Attack Bike
Game 1 vs Admech. He had a Knight and two Armigers; an Iron Hands Battalion with three squads and an Admech force with Cawl, two walkers and four Robots. The first game was for kill points and included random Ambulls appearing and attacking. I went first and dropped both of his Armigers with the Black Knights and Hellblasters. In Turn 2 I dropped his Knight but he brought it back with two wounds. I finished off the Knight in Turn 3 along with his tactical marines. After four turns I was nestled in a corner. He wounded my Hellblasters and Black Knights but both units were alive and I could play keep-away against his robots securing the win. The Ravenwing Stratagem from Vigilus was handy in allowing my Black Knights to supercharge without fear.
Game 2 vs Orks. He had three big Boyz (Evil Sunz), Bad Moons artillery and a massive unit of Lootas screened by Grots. This game ended on turn 1 when his Lootas wiped out both my Hellblasters and Black Knights. I hadn't met the new Lootas. They can put out an eye-watering amount of damage about which you can really do nothing. I have to rethink my list/strategy if I continue to face lists like this! You can't turtle behind terrain as you get swamped. You can't sit in the open either! Those Grots keep the Lootas alive. Ah well.
Game 3 vs Necrons. He had three battalions of Necrons with plenty of supporting characters. We were playing a mission with "supply crates" that you had to capture (and could move) over a snow-filled terrain that slowed movement by 2 inches. The first turn was a little ropey, but Sammael and the Talonmaster hit their stride and started deleting units.
The Hellblasters and Black Knights were great in the first game against high-wound targets but a bit of a liability against the more "hordey" lists I then faced. Sammael and the Talonmaster are great. I am eying a Supreme Command with Sammael and two Talonmasters...
Three more games tomorrow. The missions are really funky (one has a NPC Warhound Titan) and you don't really know what to expect. There are three other Dark Angels players in the tourney.
Yes lootas are damn scary on an ork force now, especially vs our bikes. However i would suggest the following assuming you wish to keep with the theme...
Whirlwinds with castellen launchers (as in 2 or 3 of them). Putting out 4d6-6d6 shots at str 6 will do some work thanks to no los and range vs orks/hordes.
Bikes. Regular bolter bikes. Squad of 8 comes in at 184, 186 if you give the srg a storm bolter. They will put out 36 shots, rerolling thanks to sam, at 24".
Between the 2 options you kill the grots first with one (whirlwinds eat grots alive) then the bikes can get up 24" from the lootas and unload. Between them and Sams attacks thats 36 str 4, 12 str 6 ap-1, and 6 str 5 ap-1 hits. If that doesn't kill the lootas then i don't know what will, they dont have good armor. And honestly lootas lose a lot of effectiveness once they lose boys. 12 lootas = needs to die. 4 lootas = they can die later.
Alternatively you could try flaming biker missiles..... squads of 3 bikers with flamers / combi flamers. 89 pts for 3d6 auto hits, that should do some work vs grots.
Or trip land speeder heavy flamers, moving 20"+d6 for advance and putting out 6d6 str 5 ap-1 auto hits (speed of the raven) could wipe the grots off as well, as well as the toughness of 3 t5, 6w, 3+/4++ speeders sitting infront of the lootas, but thats really expensive for what it does and is basing units of index which may not be very smart going forward.
But either way, kill the grots then kill the lootas, it doesnt get more direct than that
Azuza001 wrote: But either way, kill the grots then kill the lootas, it doesnt get more direct than that
This. There are a few things to know about the grot shields.
Grot Shield 1CP Use this Stratagem after a <CLAN> INFANTRY unit from your army (excluding units comprised entirely of GRETCHIN models) has been hit by a ranged weapon. Until the end of the phase, you can roll a D6 each time a model from that unit loses a wound if there is a friendly unit comprised entirely of <CLAN> GRETCHIN INFANTRY models within 6" of it, and the GRETCHIN unit is closer to the attacking model than the target. On a 2+ the original model does not lose that wound but one model in that GRETCHIN unit (your choice) is slain. Otherwise, the model loses the wound as normal.
* The grot that is being used to shield must be a member of the same clan as the loota. A lot of ork players will bring multiple clans, and make sure they are not shucking off wounds to invalid grots.
* The grots have to be closer to your shooter to be used as shields. Normally this is not a problem as the ork player will line the lootas up on the back edge of the board and screen the board with lootas. Also make sure that your opponent does not pull grots from a squad that's within 6" but is actually further than your intended target.
* This stratagem can only be used once a turn. If you go first and the lootas have not mobbed up, you can target the 10 man squad, let him pop grot shield, then switch your shooting to the 15 man loota squad.
* The grots will likely be screened out. In order to use a KFF, the entire unit must be within 9" of the big mek. If even one grot is out of range, the KFF won't protect the unit. They will probably have that grot be the first casualty, but still...
* Grots have a 4LD. Unless there is a warboss around to 'break eads', to kill a 10 grot unit, you need to kill 7 of them. They lowest they can roll is a 1, which would wipe the rest casualties. As the loota trick devours CPs, your opponent will likely have lots of 10 grot squads.
* If you shoot the lootas, you are facing a T4 target and possibly a 5++. While 1/6 of the shots will pluck off a loota, a T4 weapon is wounding grots on a 2+. 15 bolter shots (2/3 to hit * 5/6 to wound * 5/6 failed save) = 7 dead grots. If you are using intercessors, and you stood still you will need roughly 12 bolt rifle shots to hit your magic number of 7 dead grots. When bolter discipline becomes an official rule, intercessors will be pure gold.
Thanks for the tips regarding the Grots and Lootas fellas! I focused on the Boyz when I should have at least tried to dent the Lootas.
Finished the six-round Tourney today.
Game 4 - Custodes. He had a squad of Dawn Eagles, a Captain dude on a Dawn Eagle a Hover Tank, a Dread, Vexilla, three squads of Custodes and Wardens. We played a mission where two objectives appeared each turn that also dished out Mortal Wounds...I won the roll-off to go first and hammered one flank. I used the Signal the Attack Stratagem after Sammael inflicted two wounds on the Dawn Eagles. Nine super-charging/WFtDA Black Knights did the rest. The Devastators got the Hover Tank to one wound. He laid everything into my Black Knights over the next two rounds and wiped them out, but in the meantime I killed everything except two Custodes dudes. Result - Win. The Ravenwing Attack Squadron formation and Stratagem from Vigilus was game-changing for this battle. I have faced plenty of Custodes over the past year and I have to admit that I have thought long and hard about how to kill them - should have invested some of those thoughts into how to deal with Ork Lootas...
Game 5 - Imperial Guard with Custodes. This was a Kill Points mission and my opponents Astra Militarum (Cadian) Brigade with a Custodes Supreme Command Detachment (three Dawn Eagle Captains and a Vexilla) and a small Black Templars Battalion with Scouts and Techmarines with Conversion Beamers. He had something like 33 units which was a liability in Kill Points. By the end of the first turn I had killed enough small units to vritually guarantee a win. His Dawn Eagle Captains raced up alone to deal with my Black Knights. One Black Knight escaped and my army wiped out the exposed Dawn Eagles on Turn 2. After that it was mopping up. Result - Win.
Game 6 Death Guard/Nurgles on a crazy Daemon World mission. He had Mortarian, some character dudes, cultists, a nine-man Terminator Squad, three PBCs and a Daemon Prince. He also had that tree thing. I went first and piled everything into Mortarian. He rolled saves very well, but it was his Disgustingly Resilient saves that left me facing an uphill battle (a total of five unsaved wounds). He wiped out my Black Knights. I was able to kill Morty on turn 2, but by then I was behind on Kill Points. In the end I killed Morty, the Demon Prince and the Terminators but he had killed twice that in units. Result - loss.
So I went 4-2 and was playing the final round against the guy who won the battle points portion of the tourney - not bad! I came 8th overall out of 40 - my painting is good, but not nearly as good as the folks in the top! I will play a different list next time (maybe Deathwing?), but if I ran this again tomorrow I would likely drop three Black Knights (to six man from a nine-man Squadron) and get a little more dakka. The nine-man Squadron could really put out the pain, but it was a little unwieldy and actually quite vulnerable. The list dealt with Knights both in the tourney and in practice matches. The Aggressors surprised almost every opponent. Working with Azrael they are quite useful for the points. We used the Beta Bolter rules and I really like Intercessors now.
Hi all!
I’m planning to go with the following list to a tourney and it would be great to get some feedback.
There are no tactical missions (cards) in use but to score it is important to be on different places on the board at the end of each round.
Total pts.: 1499
Power level: 96
CP: 9
Dark Angels: Battalion Detachment – 342 Pts. (PL 24)
*************** 2 HQ ***************
Librarian, Jump Pack
+ Bolt pistol, Force stave -> 8 Pkt.
+ Psychic Powers, Smite, Aversion, Mind Wipe -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 120 Pts. (PL 7)
The buffs can only target Phobos characters, thus limiting their effect.
- Shrouding makes a unit only targetable for shooting if it's the closest and visible. This will probably be good with Infiltrators flanking a position and taking an objective while other things (like a Knight or bikes) zoom towards the enemy, or Eliminators when you'll need them alive in your next turn.
- Scryer's Gaze lets ranged weapons to re-roll hits and ignore cover. This is quite good on everything from Shadowspear - but especially Eliminators; however, the main target would be Infiltrators, because you want those saucy 6s!
- Temporar Corridor is basically Warptime, but you HAVE to Advance (at 3d6, discard 2 lowest). Perhaps for Linebreaker or catching an objective (no Phobos weaponry is Assault, so wouldn't be able to shoot anyway)
The debuffs are quite awesome!
- Hallucination makes the enemy lose 1 Ld and you roll 2d6 against its Ld; if you roll higher, it has -1 to hit. This goes REALLY well with Aversion and Darkshroud. We can make a Castellan to hit only on a 6, muhahaha! The icing on the cake is following it with Mind Wipe. - Tenebrous Curse only works on non-Fly units. They suffer a mortal wound and halve their movement/charge/advance. Great against melee folks like GSC and Orks. It's very situational.
- Mind Raid does a mortal wound and, if you target an enemy character, you get 1 command point if you roll 3D6 (yes, THREE) and surpass the model's Ld. Goes nicely with Brillaint Strategist WT and, again, Hallucination.
Maxamato wrote: Hi all!
I’m planning to go with the following list to a tourney and it would be great to get some feedback.
There are no tactical missions (cards) in use but to score it is important to be on different places on the board at the end of each round.
Total pts.: 1499
Power level: 96
CP: 9
Dark Angels: Battalion Detachment – 342 Pts. (PL 24)
*************** 2 HQ ***************
Librarian, Jump Pack
+ Bolt pistol, Force stave -> 8 Pkt.
+ Psychic Powers, Smite, Aversion, Mind Wipe -> 0 Pkt. - - - > 120 Pts. (PL 7)
The Outrider detach. Will be the RW Attack squadron.
Thx in advance!
Regards
Most tournaments right now limit datasheets to 3 of the same type (i.e. you could only take 3 units of Black Knights). I would check with your tournament if they are following that rule. You could reorganize the black knights into 3 units, since the unit limit is 9 knights/unit.
I've tried to sift through the Shadowspear info but have not been able to determine how or if Dark Angels will be able to use the new Primaris. Anyone been able to find something out? Does the Mini Codex in the box give something about how to use the new models in non Codex Adeptus Astartes forces?
For even more lolz, combo the new -1 to hit power with not just Aversion but the similar Space Wolves power from an allied Rune Priest! I already love the DA/SW debuff combo, and it just got even better.
ZergSmasher wrote: For even more lolz, combo the new -1 to hit power with not just Aversion but the similar Space Wolves power from an allied Rune Priest! I already love the DA/SW debuff combo, and it just got even better.
"Hey, that Castellan of yours, what's it good for?"
"Well, it has a Volcano Ca-"
"It was a rethoric question. It now shoots at 7+ against anything near this Darkshroud."
"We are now enemies for life!"
Just played in a 10-man tournament yesterday, using the Adepticon Championship missions. I ended up going 1-1-1, losing to a list with Drukhari and Alaitoc, getting a draw vs. Orks, and soundly crushing an Ultramarines all-Primaris list (with Bobby G). My list was the typical Azrael Hellblaster gunline, with 19 Hellblasters surrounding Azrael, a Lieutenant, a Primaris Ancient, and a Darkshroud. I also had a Talonmaster, 2 Dark Talons, some Ravenwing bikers and scouts as troops. The Ravenwing units were in an Outrider detachment for which I did spend the CP to make it a Ravenwing Attack Squadron. It only really came in handy against the Orks when I used the +1 to hit strat for my Talonmaster to counteract the penalty for moving with heavy weapons. He mulched a lot of Boyz before he went down in that game. In the first game I did take the Monster Slayer of Caliban on my Talonmaster and it did come in handy when he charged a couple of different vehicles (a Razorwing and a Venom). +1 to wound is nice vs. vehicles.
My takeaways from the day:
-I know I seem to flip-flop on my opinion of the Azrael bomb, but it is actually solid. Its main weakness is the lack of mobility, which is what cost me in the first game and probably the reason DA struggle against Eldar a lot. The Hellblasters melt a lot of stuff if they get the chance.
-Dark Talons continue to be amazing. I ran two of them for the first time, and they absolutely performed (less so in game 1, but even then they weren't a total flub). Just stay away from anything with strong auto-hit weapons, as they will wreck a Dark Talon fairly easily.
-The Eye of the Unseen may be a hidden gem in our codex. It really didn't accomplish anything in the tournament this time, but things like Harlequin Solitaires or Assassins would hate to get caught by it (forced to hit last when in the middle of some somewhat annoyed Hellblasters...)
-Speed of the Raven was probably my strat of the day, even more so than Weapons from the Dark Age. Being able to advance and still shoot and charge with a Ravenwing unit is huge. Really increases the threat range of a Dark Talon or Talonmaster.
-The Ravenwing Attack Squadron specialist detachment is good, but not a must take. I'll probably skip it next time and use the CP (and change some stuff in the list) to stick in an Assassin instead. If you are running more Ravenwing than I was, it's worth it though.
-When choosing a character to take a relic, it is worth taking your free relic on something other than a Talonmaster. That way if you have the RAS detachment you can spend a CP to choose which sword you want him to have. Monster Slayer > Heavenfall Blade vs. a vehicle/monster heavy list, but not as good vs. hordes of regular joes. Of course if you are running multiple Talonmasters you should probably take both relic swords!
Is there a reason for not running Sammael in Sableclaw? In my games he combo'ed really well with the Talonmaster. Sammael, Talonmaster, Dark Shroud and Dark Talon are basically must takes for me.
Crimson_ wrote: Is there a reason for not running Sammael in Sableclaw? In my games he combo'ed really well with the Talonmaster. Sammael, Talonmaster, Dark Shroud and Dark Talon are basically must takes for me.
In the Index days it was more sensible to take Sammael on Corvex. With the change to Sableclaw in the Codex there is not really a reason to take Corvex. If you are spending that many points spend a little more for some real firepower!. Surround Sammael in Sableclaw and a Talonmaster in cheap troops and let their firepower do the heavy lifting.
@Zergsmasher,
Thanks for sharing your experience. I also keep coming back to the Azrael/Hellblaster/Ancient list. I've spent a few months also using Black Knight squads to gain mobility and hard hitting firepower. The Ravenwing Attack Squadron is a nice counter to those dreaded -1 to hit armies out there that make us hesitate to Supercharge our plasma. The Black Knights are a little unwieldy when you run nine in one squad, but at least they can manoeuvre.
I've had good success with Eye of the Unseen on a Ravenwing Champion. Made at least two Smash Captains cry in a tourney last spring (different games) that were trying to assasinate Sammael.
I tried out a Deathwing-heavy list on Saturday against Eldar soup (Drukhari with Alaitoc). I regret to report that they are still not getting it done. The DW Knights were tanky and killy, but they couldn't be everywhere! Terminators need a redesign.
Does anyone have experience running a Forgeworld Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought? On paper he seems to pair well with Deathwing Knights (+1 strength means wounding Knights on 3's) and has the benefit of being a character with less than 10 wounds. He also has a WS of 2 so arming him with the twin Lascannons can be strong.
abyrn wrote: Does anyone have experience running a Forgeworld Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought? On paper he seems to pair well with Deathwing Knights (+1 strength means wounding Knights on 3's) and has the benefit of being a character with less than 10 wounds. He also has a WS of 2 so arming him with the twin Lascannons can be strong.
I don't have experience running him with DA but he tends to be a melee monster that either forms a terrifying roadblock that keeps the enemy from wanting to close, or as a rear line fighter than hops in wherever the melee is worse and start wailing away. You are paying a lot of points for all that melee potential just to get the BS2 for lascannons. Might be better of saving the points and having a normal venerable dreadnought or even springing for one of the other relic (forgeworld) dreadnoughts.
I thought about using normal venerable dreadnoughts but there is a guy in my local meta that tends to run 6 to 9 talos with haywire blasters... so any vehicle that pops it's head out gets destroyed immediately. It is expensive and I would rather bring more lascannons but the character keyword is tempting me.
Got a question for the group. Now that shadowspear is out I think the DA have some secret tech around trepidation power. I struggling to build a list around this combo involving trepidation. Phobos Libby with the hallucination and temporal corridor powers, a DA libby with mind wipe and trepidation, a Int. Chaplin with eye of the unseen and a squad of reivers. With this combo and assuming all powers go off the enemy unit is -5 leadership going into trep. The tricky parts of this is getting the reivers and chaplin within 3" of the target. Any suggestions on what to build around this?
Combo with Mind Wipe, maybe take a third Libby for the strat for +2 to cast? The Chaplain can take a jump pack to get in range, as for the Reivers, they might be a trap in this case, I don't know how to get them close.
Mind wipe was already factored in. Reivers are easy to get into range thanks to the temporal corridor power. you get to move them even if they deepstrike in. I totally forgot about that +2 to cast stratagem. so what do you build around this to make it viable in a competitive setting? standard ravenwing list or Azrael castle?
I don't think you can cast Temporal Corridor on a unit that used deepstrike, per the FAQ for Warptime. Other than that, I think that Ravenwing would be better because they can keep up with the rest of the force, but the Azrael bubble will provide better fire support.
I feel like that's a gimmick with too many moving parts to work well. That being said, if you skip the Reivers and the Chappy and just go with the -1 leadership powers and then cast Trephination, it should still work well enough.
Personally, I want to try running the Phobos libby with a regular DA libby and a SW Rune Priest for the combo of Hallucination, Aversion and Tempest's Wrath (potential -3 to hit on one unit or -1 on three different units). Throw in a Darkshroud and maybe the Mind Wipe power and you can really stack up the negative hit modifiers.
ZergSmasher wrote: I feel like that's a gimmick with too many moving parts to work well. That being said, if you skip the Reivers and the Chappy and just go with the -1 leadership powers and then cast Trephination, it should still work well enough.
Personally, I want to try running the Phobos libby with a regular DA libby and a SW Rune Priest for the combo of Hallucination, Aversion and Tempest's Wrath (potential -3 to hit on one unit or -1 on three different units). Throw in a Darkshroud and maybe the Mind Wipe power and you can really stack up the negative hit modifiers.
Not sure about new primaris stuff, but ive had some pretty good success with running DA+GK:
3 dark talons
shroud
sammy
talonmaster
3 scouts
2 GMNDK
draigo
Dark talons with speeders clear screens like no other, i usually drop bombs turn 1 since this way they do much more damage than being inside auras
Some times dark talons are better than snipers, when opponent leaves characters in the backfield, simply move + advance and kill
GMNDKs along with Draigo can be boosted up to 2++ which helps staying on the board for a long time and have good close combat as well as psychic protection
Timur wrote: Not sure about new primaris stuff, but ive had some pretty good success with running DA+GK:
3 dark talons
shroud
sammy
talonmaster
3 scouts
2 GMNDK
draigo
Dark talons with speeders clear screens like no other, i usually drop bombs turn 1 since this way they do much more damage than being inside auras
Some times dark talons are better than snipers, when opponent leaves characters in the backfield, simply move + advance and kill
GMNDKs along with Draigo can be boosted up to 2++ which helps staying on the board for a long time and have good close combat as well as psychic protection
I'm interested in hearing more about this list. I'd also love to see the list itself and I was wondering whether you'd consider the Ravenwing Attack Squadron.
Timur wrote: Not sure about new primaris stuff, but ive had some pretty good success with running DA+GK:
3 dark talons
shroud
sammy
talonmaster
3 scouts
2 GMNDK
draigo
Dark talons with speeders clear screens like no other, i usually drop bombs turn 1 since this way they do much more damage than being inside auras
Some times dark talons are better than snipers, when opponent leaves characters in the backfield, simply move + advance and kill
GMNDKs along with Draigo can be boosted up to 2++ which helps staying on the board for a long time and have good close combat as well as psychic protection
GW FAQed it:
Page 101 – Sanctic Discipline, Sanctuary Change the rules text to read:
‘Sanctuary has a warp charge value of 6. If manifested, pick a friendly Grey Knights unit within 12" of the psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, the invulnerable save of that unit is improved by 1 (to a maximum of 3+). Models that do not have an invulnerable save instead gain a 5+ invulnerable save.'
Timur wrote: Not sure about new primaris stuff, but ive had some pretty good success with running DA+GK:
3 dark talons
shroud
sammy
talonmaster
3 scouts
2 GMNDK
draigo
Dark talons with speeders clear screens like no other, i usually drop bombs turn 1 since this way they do much more damage than being inside auras
Some times dark talons are better than snipers, when opponent leaves characters in the backfield, simply move + advance and kill
GMNDKs along with Draigo can be boosted up to 2++ which helps staying on the board for a long time and have good close combat as well as psychic protection
GW FAQed it:
Page 101 – Sanctic Discipline, Sanctuary Change the rules text to read:
‘Sanctuary has a warp charge value of 6. If manifested, pick a friendly Grey Knights unit within 12" of the psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, the invulnerable save of that unit is improved by 1 (to a maximum of 3+). Models that do not have an invulnerable save instead gain a 5+ invulnerable save.'
Timur wrote: Not sure about new primaris stuff, but ive had some pretty good success with running DA+GK:
3 dark talons
shroud
sammy
talonmaster
3 scouts
2 GMNDK
draigo
Dark talons with speeders clear screens like no other, i usually drop bombs turn 1 since this way they do much more damage than being inside auras
Some times dark talons are better than snipers, when opponent leaves characters in the backfield, simply move + advance and kill
GMNDKs along with Draigo can be boosted up to 2++ which helps staying on the board for a long time and have good close combat as well as psychic protection
GW FAQed it:
Page 101 – Sanctic Discipline, Sanctuary Change the rules text to read:
‘Sanctuary has a warp charge value of 6. If manifested, pick a friendly Grey Knights unit within 12" of the psyker. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, the invulnerable save of that unit is improved by 1 (to a maximum of 3+). Models that do not have an invulnerable save instead gain a 5+ invulnerable save.'
You just have use HEED THE PROGNOSTICARS stratagem on Draigo and you will still have 2++
Timur wrote: Not sure about new primaris stuff, but ive had some pretty good success with running DA+GK:
3 dark talons
shroud
sammy
talonmaster
3 scouts
2 GMNDK
draigo
Dark talons with speeders clear screens like no other, i usually drop bombs turn 1 since this way they do much more damage than being inside auras
Some times dark talons are better than snipers, when opponent leaves characters in the backfield, simply move + advance and kill
GMNDKs along with Draigo can be boosted up to 2++ which helps staying on the board for a long time and have good close combat as well as psychic protection
I'm interested in hearing more about this list. I'd also love to see the list itself and I was wondering whether you'd consider the Ravenwing Attack Squadron.
Well, this is not the best list out there and i think taking blood angels as allies works much better since that leaves some points for inceptors with plasma.
But, i think it has good potential against armies with lots of casters and high AP weapons. You can deny with +1, use 3 dice to deny an important spell.
And the dreadknights are awsome models
As for attack squadron, i cant find mush use for it. I have tried running 5 man squads of black knights, but unless you are going first you might not even get a chance to shoot with them.
They are fragile and get killed fast.
I think attack squadron is a must have if you are fielding black knights, since that will allow you to overcharge without worrying of dying.
If you are going against eldar you might also want to take it, as they have built in -1 to hit and can boost it to -2 to hit when you shoot them.
I've found the Ravenwing +1 to hit strat useful with Sammael and Talonmasters more than with Black Knights. Usually with the Black Knights shooting anything else at the same target is overkill, but Sammael giving the Talonmasters a +1 to hit is great for removing the hit penalty for moving, and it is rare that Sammael does not get at least 1 wound on something, even a Knight.
edit: The move after fighting strat I have not found a good use for though, a single Talonmasters/Sammael or the Black Knights don't really have much of a melee punch to be worth spending 2cp for.
The +1 to hit strat is great. Like the T'au Sept one except ours only costs 1 CP compared to their 3. It was very clutch for me in a game against Orks a couple of weeks ago.
The Attack Squadron +1 to hit Strat is great. At a recent tourney I put a Custodes player on his back foot with a Black Knight Squadron supercharging/WFtDA after Sammael got a wound on the Dawn Eagles. The same went for Alaitoc. Enemies with -1 to hit rules are hell for our plasma, so getting around that is gold! It's gold Jerry!
I am thinking about putting a small Ravenwing squad in my 2k list in place of my 3rd Dev squad. I am running a gunline army with some Deathwing friends dropping in so I might need the help for objective grabbing.
I've been finding my typical list is too static also. Thinking of going half green half black to see if that helps. I haven't found the right balance yet.
My new list is the following:
Battalion: Dark Angels
Sammael in Sableclaw
Ravenwing Talonmaster
3x 5 Scouts
10 Ravenwing Black Knights
2x Ravenwing Dark Talon
Outrider: Dark Angels
Ravenwing Talonmaster
Ravenwing Darkshroud
2x 3 Ravenwing Bikers: Storm Bolter on Sgts.
Battalion: Astra Militarum
2x Company Commander: Boltgun
3x Infantry Squad
Both DA detachments will get the Ravenwing Attack Squadron treatment, and the two Talonmasters will each get one of the relic swords. I feel like this scratches the mobile itch really well and can mulch hordes hard, which is good in a meta with Orks and Genestealer Cults around. The hardest part is going to be keeping the Black Knights alive, especially if facing Dark Reapers (who don't care about Darkshrouds). I also have the Guard stuff for objective holding and extra Command Points.
ZergSmasher wrote: My new list is the following:
Battalion: Dark Angels
Sammael in Sableclaw
Ravenwing Talonmaster
3x 5 Scouts
10 Ravenwing Black Knights
2x Ravenwing Dark Talon
Outrider: Dark Angels
Ravenwing Talonmaster
Ravenwing Darkshroud
2x 3 Ravenwing Bikers: Storm Bolter on Sgts.
Battalion: Astra Militarum
2x Company Commander: Boltgun
3x Infantry Squad
Both DA detachments will get the Ravenwing Attack Squadron treatment, and the two Talonmasters will each get one of the relic swords. I feel like this scratches the mobile itch really well and can mulch hordes hard, which is good in a meta with Orks and Genestealer Cults around. The hardest part is going to be keeping the Black Knights alive, especially if facing Dark Reapers (who don't care about Darkshrouds). I also have the Guard stuff for objective holding and extra Command Points.
I am thinking to change 10 Black Knights to 6 Plasma Inceptors. Then you have 26 points to give Bikers 2 plasma guns.
ZergSmasher wrote: My new list is the following:
Battalion: Dark Angels
Sammael in Sableclaw
Ravenwing Talonmaster
3x 5 Scouts
10 Ravenwing Black Knights
2x Ravenwing Dark Talon
Outrider: Dark Angels
Ravenwing Talonmaster
Ravenwing Darkshroud
2x 3 Ravenwing Bikers: Storm Bolter on Sgts.
Battalion: Astra Militarum
2x Company Commander: Boltgun
3x Infantry Squad
Both DA detachments will get the Ravenwing Attack Squadron treatment, and the two Talonmasters will each get one of the relic swords. I feel like this scratches the mobile itch really well and can mulch hordes hard, which is good in a meta with Orks and Genestealer Cults around. The hardest part is going to be keeping the Black Knights alive, especially if facing Dark Reapers (who don't care about Darkshrouds). I also have the Guard stuff for objective holding and extra Command Points.
I am thinking to change 10 Black Knights to 6 Plasma Inceptors. Then you have 26 points to give Bikers 2 plasma guns.
I thought about that, but Inceptors don't have the Ravenwing keyword and so can't use the Attack Squadron benefits.
My nine-man Black Knight squad in an Attack Squadron detachment with Sammael and the Talonmaster has done some truly heavy lifting. It can also come apart against certain foes, but at least it has mobility and can work around -1 to hit debuffs.
That's part of why I concocted the list I posted: mobility. I like the Azrael gunline but mobility is a fatal weakness of that list. Sure, you can add a few bikes to give it some mobile elements but it's still ultimately a gunline. Granted, you should always be moving the Hellblaster blob around; never stand still. But it's still going to get beaten by a list that is good at playing the objectives. My biggest concern with the Black Knights is that D2 weapons will just wipe them off the table with little effort. I'm thinking I'll just have to learn to play around that weakness.
ZergSmasher wrote: That's part of why I concocted the list I posted: mobility. I like the Azrael gunline but mobility is a fatal weakness of that list. Sure, you can add a few bikes to give it some mobile elements but it's still ultimately a gunline. Granted, you should always be moving the Hellblaster blob around; never stand still. But it's still going to get beaten by a list that is good at playing the objectives. My biggest concern with the Black Knights is that D2 weapons will just wipe them off the table with little effort. I'm thinking I'll just have to learn to play around that weakness.
In my last six-round tournament there was one game where the Black Knights fell apart without getting much done - vs Orks with massed Lootas. Otherwise they were my heavy-lifters. Dark Reapers have also caused problems. Both those threats will also shred Hellblasters. I have enjoyed a list with Azreal and a Hellblasters plus Sammael and Black Knights. The Black Knights can start under the Azrael bubble in case I go second, relying on Jink/Speed of the Raven after that.
I really like your dual Talon Master list! Three twin Assault Cannons/Twin Heavy Bolters behind screening units can cause a lot of damage!
Hello, I am not a dark angels player, but I am a long time space marines player. I mostly play primaris infantry and forgeworld vehicles these days. (Once I started buying primaris infantry I just had a hard time aesthetically mixing them with classic marines besides scouts). With dark angels being the best chapter for plasma, has anyone had consistently good experiences with the plasma inceptors with the weapons from the dark age strat? My army already often frequently uses scouts and a librarian, so I'm thinking about just tagging the librarian and one of the scout squads as dark angels so I can have a dark angels patrol and bring a dark angels inceptor squad along as a point and click medium tank deletion unit. Math hammer says a dark angels 3 man plasma inceptor team overcharging with the strat should average above 12 wounds on a standard t7 3+ save target. I'm just wondering if in actual experience they accomplish this task more often than not and if its worth it.
rooster92 wrote: Hello, I am not a dark angels player, but I am a long time space marines player. I mostly play primaris infantry and forgeworld vehicles these days. (Once I started buying primaris infantry I just had a hard time aesthetically mixing them with classic marines besides scouts). With dark angels being the best chapter for plasma, has anyone had consistently good experiences with the plasma inceptors with the weapons from the dark age strat? My army already often frequently uses scouts and a librarian, so I'm thinking about just tagging the librarian and one of the scout squads as dark angels so I can have a dark angels patrol and bring a dark angels inceptor squad along as a point and click medium tank deletion unit. Math hammer says a dark angels 3 man plasma inceptor team overcharging with the strat should average above 12 wounds on a standard t7 3+ save target. I'm just wondering if in actual experience they accomplish this task more often than not and if its worth it.
Inceptors with plasma are powerful, but fragile for their points. If they can get a source of rerolls (dropping near Azrael or at least a Master and preferably a Lieutenant) they will do some good work, but their damage output can be very swingy since they get 2d3 shots per model (meaning you could roll low on number of shots and end up not doing much). Don't expect them to last long after the drop, as they will be a priority target. If you really want to use Weapons from the Dark Age, a unit of Hellblasters is probably better, as they don't cost as much per model and you can get more models and more consistent damage output. There's a reason one of the more popular Dark Angels list builds involves Hellblasters around Azrael and a Lieutenant or Talonmaster. One other thing to think about with our plasma: larger units are more efficient for WotDA.
Oldman Lee wrote: Just had a browse through the adeptacon results not a good showing by are codex
I'm guessing that the adepticon missions favoring tough units that can sit on objectives exacerbated the problems already present in our codex, as we lack both the ability to kill tough units, or our own tough units to contest objectives.
Oldman Lee wrote: Just had a browse through the adeptacon results not a good showing by are codex
Yeah I wasn't impressed by the lists I saw for Dark Angels. Makes me wish I had gone because I might have been able to do better. Then again, the competition at Adepticon is pretty fierce, so I might have gotten my face pushed in as well.
Oldman Lee wrote: Just had a browse through the adeptacon results not a good showing by are codex
I'm guessing that the adepticon missions favoring tough units that can sit on objectives exacerbated the problems already present in our codex, as we lack both the ability to kill tough units, or our own tough units to contest objectives.
Do you have a link to the full results?
The results are on best coast pairings I've not seen them anywhere else tbh not much to see best dark Angels list had 2 wins I think. Like I say very poor showing
Oldman Lee wrote: Just had a browse through the adeptacon results not a good showing by are codex
I'm guessing that the adepticon missions favoring tough units that can sit on objectives exacerbated the problems already present in our codex, as we lack both the ability to kill tough units, or our own tough units to contest objectives.
Do you have a link to the full results?
The results are on best coast pairings I've not seen them anywhere else tbh not much to see best dark Angels list had 2 wins I think. Like I say very poor showing
Thanks, I am still a bit curious to see what the DA lists were but I don't know where to find them.
Oldman Lee wrote: Just had a browse through the adeptacon results not a good showing by are codex
I'm guessing that the adepticon missions favoring tough units that can sit on objectives exacerbated the problems already present in our codex, as we lack both the ability to kill tough units, or our own tough units to contest objectives.
Do you have a link to the full results?
The results are on best coast pairings I've not seen them anywhere else tbh not much to see best dark Angels list had 2 wins I think. Like I say very poor showing
Thanks, I am still a bit curious to see what the DA lists were but I don't know where to find them.
Oldman Lee wrote: Just had a browse through the adeptacon results not a good showing by are codex
I'm guessing that the adepticon missions favoring tough units that can sit on objectives exacerbated the problems already present in our codex, as we lack both the ability to kill tough units, or our own tough units to contest objectives.
Do you have a link to the full results?
The results are on best coast pairings I've not seen them anywhere else tbh not much to see best dark Angels list had 2 wins I think. Like I say very poor showing
ZergSmasher wrote: My new list is the following:
Battalion: Dark Angels
Sammael in Sableclaw
Ravenwing Talonmaster
3x 5 Scouts
10 Ravenwing Black Knights
2x Ravenwing Dark Talon
Outrider: Dark Angels
Ravenwing Talonmaster
Ravenwing Darkshroud
2x 3 Ravenwing Bikers: Storm Bolter on Sgts.
Battalion: Astra Militarum
2x Company Commander: Boltgun
3x Infantry Squad
Both DA detachments will get the Ravenwing Attack Squadron treatment, and the two Talonmasters will each get one of the relic swords. I feel like this scratches the mobile itch really well and can mulch hordes hard, which is good in a meta with Orks and Genestealer Cults around. The hardest part is going to be keeping the Black Knights alive, especially if facing Dark Reapers (who don't care about Darkshrouds). I also have the Guard stuff for objective holding and extra Command Points.
Pretty much the exact same list i've been running except all my Ravenwing are in one Battalion (2 TMs, Sammael on Sableclaw, 3x5 bolter scouts, 8 Black Knights, 8 bikers w/3x plasma, Darkshroud, and 2 Dark Talons). And of course the loyal 32 Battalion for CP and screens.
I've played against soup lists and wrecked knights pretty easily, even going second. Hordes are fantastic to deal with given the extra bodies from the guard to screen and you pretty much stay as far away and throw 160+ shots a turn at them. My favorite part is making one company commander the warlord. I get to sit them in a corner, out of LOS (preferably) and just collect CP. This makes me so much more willing to risk a talonmaster to snipe a character in close combat or just jump out with the vigilus strat. I haven't played against any eldar yet, but i'm sure it's going to be an uphill battle as those games always are.
I'll likely be taking this list to a local ITC event in a few weeks to see how it really does.
ZergSmasher wrote: My new list is the following:
Battalion: Dark Angels
Sammael in Sableclaw
Ravenwing Talonmaster
3x 5 Scouts
10 Ravenwing Black Knights
2x Ravenwing Dark Talon
Outrider: Dark Angels
Ravenwing Talonmaster
Ravenwing Darkshroud
2x 3 Ravenwing Bikers: Storm Bolter on Sgts.
Battalion: Astra Militarum
2x Company Commander: Boltgun
3x Infantry Squad
Both DA detachments will get the Ravenwing Attack Squadron treatment, and the two Talonmasters will each get one of the relic swords. I feel like this scratches the mobile itch really well and can mulch hordes hard, which is good in a meta with Orks and Genestealer Cults around. The hardest part is going to be keeping the Black Knights alive, especially if facing Dark Reapers (who don't care about Darkshrouds). I also have the Guard stuff for objective holding and extra Command Points.
I have tried running a similar list with 10 black knights... If you are going second its very likely they will all die and you wont have anything left to deal with tanks unless dark talons shoot really well
So, thinking of going DA for ITC this year (mono dex).
Right off the bat I'm looking at how to handle knights. For starters I think using our psychics to degrade them is the best start, but a smart opponent will employ a Culexus to counter this.
Other options of course include overcharged plasma and lascannons.
For the former I'm thinking Plasma Cannon dev sqds instead of hellblasters. Primarily because they are cheaper and have less of a bullseye on them.than the usual Hellblaster, Azzy, Ancient (which is very points intensive).
As for lascannons, I'm looking at either ven dreads, preds or even a Sicaran. Of course with any vehicle, haywire is a thing, and something I would have to think heavily about.
For anti-horde I'll probably run some Ravenwing with Sammy/TM and 2 dark talons.
Other things I'm really looking at is a large blob of deathwing knights and possibly some of the new Shadowspear units.
bullyboy wrote: So, thinking of going DA for ITC this year (mono dex).
Right off the bat I'm looking at how to handle knights. For starters I think using our psychics to degrade them is the best start, but a smart opponent will employ a Culexus to counter this.
Other options of course include overcharged plasma and lascannons.
For the former I'm thinking Plasma Cannon dev sqds instead of hellblasters. Primarily because they are cheaper and have less of a bullseye on them.than the usual Hellblaster, Azzy, Ancient (which is very points intensive).
As for lascannons, I'm looking at either ven dreads, preds or even a Sicaran. Of course with any vehicle, haywire is a thing, and something I would have to think heavily about.
For anti-horde I'll probably run some Ravenwing with Sammy/TM and 2 dark talons.
Other things I'm really looking at is a large blob of deathwing knights and possibly some of the new Shadowspear units.
Lots to think about overall.
I'm also going to try to go mono-dex for ITC this year, hence why I'm having to change my list (can't bring the Loyal 32 if I'm mono-dex). I think 2 Dark Talons is a must take, and quite possibly 2 Talonmasters as well for anti-horde duty. The current list I'm now trying out is the following:
Spoiler:
Battalion 1
Ravenwing Attack Squadron
Sammy in Sableclaw
Talonmaster with Monster Slayer (Warlord: Brilliant Strategist)
3x 5 Scouts
Darkshroud
10 Black Knights
2x Dark Talon
Battalion 2
Talonmaster with Heavenfall Blade (for 1 CP)
Librarian
5 Intercessors with Bolt Rifles
6 Scouts with Sniper Rifles
5 Scouts with Sniper Rifles
The real question for this list is whether to spend an extra CP to make the second Battalion into an Attack Squadron, as the only thing that will benefit is the Talonmaster. I have lots of anti-horde with 3 character speeders and 2 planes, and the Black Knights can kill some big stuff potentially, assuming I can keep them alive long enough. The Darkshroud helps with that, as does the Libby if he can get Aversion off on some nasty shooty unit. 2 units of sniper scouts puts some pressure on enemy characters; not as much as a Vindicare or even a unit of Eliminators, but better than nothing for sure. I actually tried this list out earlier tonight against my friend's shiny new Chaos list using their latest toys. I lost, but my list did some work and could have won had a few die rolls gone my way. The ability of the Black Knights to charge, beat some stuff up, and then burn 2 CP with the formation strat to immediately get out of combat should not be underestimated. And the other strat from the formation is pretty nice as well, as it negates the hit penalties from the Speeders' heavy weapons if they move, and it lets the Black Knights supercharge their weapons safely.
As for plasma, I think plasma Devs are a trap. They are much squishier than Hellblasters, can't get more than 4 cannons in a squad, and their output is too swingy. Their weapons are also Heavy, meaning they really need to sit still, whereas Hellblasters can actually move and still shoot effectively, which allows for at least limited board control with them (you should always move them if possible, as their range is too short to be a static gunline). Being able to take them in larger units (up to 10 per squad) gets you more mileage with Weapons from the Dark Age, and putting them around Azzy and a banner is cash money.
Personally I think pure Dark Angels have only two possible builds that are truly competitive: the tried-and-true Azrael Gunline (and you really should commit to it as much as possible, so don't skimp on the support stuff), or a mobile Ravenwing build with Sammael, at least 2 Talonmasters, and some Dark Talons, with mobile units to taste (usually Black Knights or regular Ravenwing). Supporting cast for these lists can vary some, and don't forget that you can build your list to 1915 points and use the strat to get an Assassin while still being pure DA for ITC purposes. I think Eliminators and Sniper Scouts together might have some promise, as long as you don't have to undermine the main parts of the list to get them in. Scout Bikes are a decent choice for the Azrael gunline list, as they provide good mobility, but you probably want Ravenwing bikers in the mobile list since they synergize better with the Attack Squadron buffs.
i think I have to disagree with you on the plasma devs vs hellblaster situation. For the latter, you invest in 10 of them (330pts), add Azrael (180pts) and then an Ancient (63pts) and probably an Lt (63pts) for a total of 636pts. I've seen them just drop to a stiff breeze because they are ultimately the first thing targeted. A plasma dev sqd with 4 PC, cherub and 3 additional marines is 173pts. It can sit in cover and use the extended range of the PC plus reroll 1s to hit. Losing the unit is not such a burden as losing the hellblasters plus I'm not investing in the support characters for them.I my even just take 7 guys to drop points to 160pts total.
The hellblaster mob is a one trick pony and ultimately won't surprise anyone, I plan to steer clear of it.
bullyboy wrote: i think I have to disagree with you on the plasma devs vs hellblaster situation. For the latter, you invest in 10 of them (330pts), add Azrael (180pts) and then an Ancient (63pts) and probably an Lt (63pts) for a total of 636pts. I've seen them just drop to a stiff breeze because they are ultimately the first thing targeted. A plasma dev sqd with 4 PC, cherub and 3 additional marines is 173pts. It can sit in cover and use the extended range of the PC plus reroll 1s to hit. Losing the unit is not such a burden as losing the hellblasters plus I'm not investing in the support characters for them.I my even just take 7 guys to drop points to 160pts total.
The hellblaster mob is a one trick pony and ultimately won't surprise anyone, I plan to steer clear of it.
Yeah the hellblasters castle is not that good at all
The problem is as others have pointed out we don't have a lot of competitive options. I've been wracking my brain trying to come up with something different but we struggle on so many levels as a codex.
Inceptors are an interesting option but they are damned expensive and fragile once landed. However, whenever I field Black Knights they tend to drop immediately too, at least the Inceptors are safe from first strike. As dumb as it sounds, I may even start looking at combi-plasma vets with SS as a plasma delivery system. You're only paying 13pts for the gun and shield and an overall cost of 135pts for the 5 man sqd, but you do have to then pay for a delivery system such as rhino or drop pod. I'm wondering if multiple smaller units of compact plasma (dev sqds, combi-plasma vets, inceptors etc) are better off than the huge investment in a large unit. yes, they all can't benefit from WotDA but at least one of them should be alive to actually use the strat. I'd even consider the LS vengeance if it didn't have the dumb rule of not being able to fire it again if you roll a one to overcharge it. Amazingly, plasma dreads don't have that problem. Although with the point drops, the redemptor is better now anyway,
I refuse to put all the points into that Hellblaster blob. All those points for a bunch of guys who can't fight in close combat to save their own ass. There are too many units in the game that will wreck them
bullyboy wrote: Inceptors are an interesting option but they are damned expensive and fragile once landed. However, whenever I field Black Knights they tend to drop immediately too, at least the Inceptors are safe from first strike. As dumb as it sounds, I may even start looking at combi-plasma vets with SS as a plasma delivery system. You're only paying 13pts for the gun and shield and an overall cost of 135pts for the 5 man sqd, but you do have to then pay for a delivery system such as rhino or drop pod. I'm wondering if multiple smaller units of compact plasma (dev sqds, combi-plasma vets, inceptors etc) are better off than the huge investment in a large unit. yes, they all can't benefit from WotDA but at least one of them should be alive to actually use the strat. I'd even consider the LS vengeance if it didn't have the dumb rule of not being able to fire it again if you roll a one to overcharge it. Amazingly, plasma dreads don't have that problem. Although with the point drops, the redemptor is better now anyway,
Man, if Devastators get the Havocs treatment, I believe drop pods will come back hot!
Reivax26 wrote: I refuse to put all the points into that Hellblaster blob. All those points for a bunch of guys who can't fight in close combat to save their own ass. There are too many units in the game that will wreck them
Well, that is just flat out wrong. I've had my Hellblasters take on Ork Boyz and come out on top. You definitely need to have the rerolls available from Azrael and company. And to make the Hellblaster castle work in general, you really need to commit to it and have some other stuff that can be more mobile, hence why I mentioned Scout Bikers and Dark Talons earlier. I've found that having the -1 to hit from a Darkshroud really does increase the longevity of the Hellblasters. Yes, it's a massive points sink once you take all the bells and whistles (especially since I actually run TWO big Hellblaster units next to Azzy and friends), but it does terrible, terrible things to vehicles and elite infantry. I would tend to agree that the more mobile build with Sammael is probably better though.
Surely, investing just 44pts for a Company Champion to sit <3" behind the hellblasters would be a nice bolster to their close combat capability. He is really efficient for the points.
I'm very keen to paint up some Plasma Inceptors - I think they would compliment Sammy, TM and Dark Talons nicely. Possibly combo'd with the Phobos Lt with the +1 to hit warlord trait? Definitely would only expect them to drop, melt something, then die, but for the right trade off it would be worth it. At least they won't get shot before shooting themselves.
I love Hellblasters but have had many frustrating games where my opponent keeps them out of rapid fire range long enough to chip away at their numbers, or they just get focus fired on T1 and die. Against other marine armies they are great - but that's not really our biggest problem.
Similar problems with Black Knights - either just too far away, or they die first. Had luck with the new RW vigilus strat in a couple of recent games. A unit of 6 buffed with Sam, TM and +1 to hit did 27 wounds to a Storm Raven. Though against T8 the numbers drop significantly.
I think you are onto something. I have not abandoned Hellblasters, but I am examining Plasma Devs as well as an alternative. Price is right, although the damage output is less predictable. My Plasma Inceptors have been one-hit wonders, but I will keep exploring. My Black Knights have dropped enemy Knights in one volley, but they are a little vulnerable themselves.
Talonmasters are great - I might start running two. Character armour is better than an Invul save for a shooter.
I do worry how Assasins will affect our lists. We are a character-dependent as an army.
That's one of the benefits of Talonmasters; they are a vehicle and so don't care too much about the dreaded Vindicare Assassin, or even any of them really. Plus their shooting really murders horde armies like Orks.
I've been slowly moving away from black Knights to inceptors as ive found if you don't go first black knight just get nuked of the board turn one I've not tried duel talonmaster yet do people rate it then?
I've been slowly moving away from black Knights to inceptors as ive found if you don't go first black knight just get nuked of the board turn one I've not tried duel talonmaster yet do people rate it then?
Two Talonmasters is fantastic. So much fire power. Add in Sammy on the Sableclaw and it's a pretty deadly trio, albeit an expensive trio.
I haven't used Inceptors, but the ability to deepstrike in plasma is very tempting. I agree about BKs being a huge target if you go second (as I often do). On paper I think I prefer the BKs still, you just have to try and get them out of LOS or range as best you can.
I've been slowly moving away from black Knights to inceptors as ive found if you don't go first black knight just get nuked of the board turn one I've not tried duel talonmaster yet do people rate it then?
Two Talonmasters is fantastic. So much fire power. Add in Sammy on the Sableclaw and it's a pretty deadly trio, albeit an expensive trio.
I haven't used Inceptors, but the ability to deepstrike in plasma is very tempting. I agree about BKs being a huge target if you go second (as I often do). On paper I think I prefer the BKs still, you just have to try and get them out of LOS or range as best you can.
Yeah at for me is one of the best thing about inceptors is the deep strike ability they can't get shot up turn one
So, I usually wanted to play Black Knights, but I've kind of changed my mind. So, I made a new list that is pure DA. I'd like if you could find flaws in it or rate it, or tell me how to improve it.
EDIT: The list is pretty simple, core with Azrael, ancient and lieutenant with hellblasters and devastrators and maybe some Intercessors to screen. Dark shroud supports core with hellblasters, bikes go for other objectives and to clear hordes while they screen for Talonmaster or even Librarian who wants to debuff enemy shooting. I guess it's not very dangerous, but it's capable of playing objectives and maybe screening enough, I mean as much as you can screen without IG or other super cheap options.
necr0n wrote: So, I usually wanted to play Black Knights, but I've kind of changed my mind. So, I made a new list that is pure DA. I'd like if you could find flaws in it or rate it, or tell me how to improve it.
EDIT: The list is pretty simple, core with Azrael, ancient and lieutenant with hellblasters and devastrators and maybe some Intercessors to screen. Dark shroud supports core with hellblasters, bikes go for other objectives and to clear hordes while they screen for Talonmaster or even Librarian who wants to debuff enemy shooting. I guess it's not very dangerous, but it's capable of playing objectives and maybe screening enough, I mean as much as you can screen without IG or other super cheap options.
EDIT2: Changed the list slightly.
I actually like this list, but I think you should definitely try to get at least one Dark Talon in there somehow. Those things are amazeballs for the points, and can really do a number on Hordes. Failing that, get a second Talonmaster to replace your regular Lieutenant (put the Libby in the first detachment with Azrael so that both Talonmasters benefit from Ravenwing Attack Squadron). Regular bikes are not terrible, but not super great either, although they do make a decent way to grab objectives if you can keep them alive.
I actually like this list, but I think you should definitely try to get at least one Dark Talon in there somehow. Those things are amazeballs for the points, and can really do a number on Hordes. Failing that, get a second Talonmaster to replace your regular Lieutenant (put the Libby in the first detachment with Azrael so that both Talonmasters benefit from Ravenwing Attack Squadron). Regular bikes are not terrible, but not super great either, although they do make a decent way to grab objectives if you can keep them alive.
At first I wanted to have 4 units of 3 bikers, so I can get max ammounts of Stormbolters, but then I couldn't get more than 3 FA in the Battalion so for RAS I made one squad 6 bikers.
Now, as for the suggestions, I want to get a Dark Talon too, in there but I can't think of how I get the points. Do I keep my assassin or skip assassin and 5 bikers and go for Flyer?
Also, I think Lieutenant supporting Hellblasters and Devastrators and Intercessors is kinda worth it for the shooting, no? Or do you think it's just extra and I should just go for more dakka through a second Talonmaster?
Maybe drop the Librarian, keep the Lieutenant and go for the second Talonmaster? Although, I do like Aversion and Mind Wipe for potential big threat units.
But, the only way to get the flyer in is drop Devastrators and then I'm supporting 1 unit of hellblasters with 3 characters. I'd like to keep the Devastrators.
So, I don't know if I can find way to fit in a Dark Talon.
2nd Talonmaster list is just instead of 12 bikes have 8 bikes (2 units of 4) and also remove the librarian, so no Powers or Deny (although I do have an assassin still). And I'm not sure a Talon master is worth 4 bikes + librarian? He does shoot a lot, but that much? I don't know.
I think in order to fit in a Dark Talon I have to remove bikes and I can't remove devastrators. (That's because Devastrators are unique in their role in the list, while bikes provide something fast that anti-hordes, which is what the Dark Talon also does). Removing enough bikes is not easy. The easiest thing to do is skip the assassin, but I think he provides a lot of help in a lot of match ups and is worth it for just 85 points. However, here's the list without him:
Bearing in mind, I can't think of other things to drop as I think hellblasters/devastrators are core to the list and the rest is pretty much required for the Double Battalion (and the assassin is too good for the points)
Here's the following questions:
--Is the second Talonmaster worth a Librarian and 4 bikes (which also means I'm dropping to 2 units)?
--Is the Dark Talon worth 5 bikes (again, drops to 2 units) and an assassin?
Which of the two is the better option? I think Talonmaster is easier to include because he doesn't replace the Assassin as he can replace an HQ, which are required for Minimum Battalions.
So what are people's best Ravenwing loadouts? How much do you invest?
Sammael 216
Talonmaster 188
Darkshroud 138
2 Dark Talons 400
6 Black Knights 228
That's 1170pts....quite significant. But is it worth it? What do you include/remove. Definitely see the possibility of dropping both Dark Talons and adding a second Talon Master bringing it to 958pts. Also thinkingmaybe going 2x5 Black knights (have had no luck with one big unit...too much of a bullseye)
bullyboy wrote: So what are people's best Ravenwing loadouts? How much do you invest?
Sammael 216
Talonmaster 188
Darkshroud 138
2 Dark Talons 400
6 Black Knights 228
That's 1170pts....quite significant. But is it worth it? What do you include/remove. Definitely see the possibility of dropping both Dark Talons and adding a second Talon Master bringing it to 958pts. Also thinkingmaybe going 2x5 Black knights (have had no luck with one big unit...too much of a bullseye)
Yeah that seem the cookie cutter options have not run 2 talonmaster so can't say how good that is I've tried 2 5 man black Knights it's ok. I've been trying some lists with Other units I've had some ok success with 2 max units of land speeders. I'm at the moment playing around with a list based round 3 max units of normal bikes and support units
bullyboy wrote: So what are people's best Ravenwing loadouts? How much do you invest?
Sammael 216
Talonmaster 188
Darkshroud 138
2 Dark Talons 400
6 Black Knights 228
That's 1170pts....quite significant. But is it worth it? What do you include/remove. Definitely see the possibility of dropping both Dark Talons and adding a second Talon Master bringing it to 958pts. Also thinkingmaybe going 2x5 Black knights (have had no luck with one big unit...too much of a bullseye)
I'm trying the above but without the Black Knights, instead running 2 x 3 man RW Bike units with storm bolters on sergeants. A bit over 1000pts - 80 Bolter shots, 24 Autocannon, 12 Heavy Bolter, 2xD3 rifts cannons...hoping to clear some screens lol.
bullyboy wrote: So what are people's best Ravenwing loadouts? How much do you invest?
Sammael 216
Talonmaster 188
Darkshroud 138
2 Dark Talons 400
6 Black Knights 228
That's 1170pts....quite significant. But is it worth it? What do you include/remove. Definitely see the possibility of dropping both Dark Talons and adding a second Talon Master bringing it to 958pts. Also thinkingmaybe going 2x5 Black knights (have had no luck with one big unit...too much of a bullseye)
Sammy on Sableclaw and 2 Talonmasters will absolutely shred. I'm trying to always include these 3 units since they do a lot of work, especially in melee.
The Dark Shroud is an unfortunate, but necessary tax.
Dark Talons and Black Knights i'm really torn on.
For me, the Dark Talon's hurricane bolters do the most work. The rift cannon 9 times out of 10 wiffs and wiffs hard. You want to fly over units to drop the bomb, but if you do that you're not going to be in re-roll range from Sammy or the Talon Masters, hence the wiffing. The stasis bomb -- if I can even get it off before it gets shot off the board -- will do 4-5 mortal wounds consistently.
Black Knights. Super deadly if they stay alive and can get in range. I'm thinking about trying out 3 units of 4 -- force my opponent to split up fire vs having one large blob. That's 456pts though.
Plasma Inceptors could be interesting to try. The deepstriking would be fantastic, but I feel like you'd probably want to land them near your castle to get re-rolls so they don't just kill themselves if they overcharge.
Since the hurricane bolters have been doing well, i'm tempted to just take a bunch of ravenwing bikers. 6 bikers will get you to 24 bolter shots. Add in some plasma guns or melta guns to add some teeth.
My biggest challenge at the moment is figuring out how to deal with Knights assuming any/all Black Knights are going to be their #1 target.
bullyboy wrote: So what are people's best Ravenwing loadouts? How much do you invest?
Sammael 216
Talonmaster 188
Darkshroud 138
2 Dark Talons 400
6 Black Knights 228
That's 1170pts....quite significant. But is it worth it? What do you include/remove. Definitely see the possibility of dropping both Dark Talons and adding a second Talon Master bringing it to 958pts. Also thinkingmaybe going 2x5 Black knights (have had no luck with one big unit...too much of a bullseye)
Sammy on Sableclaw and 2 Talonmasters will absolutely shred. I'm trying to always include these 3 units since they do a lot of work, especially in melee.
The Dark Shroud is an unfortunate, but necessary tax.
Dark Talons and Black Knights i'm really torn on.
For me, the Dark Talon's hurricane bolters do the most work. The rift cannon 9 times out of 10 wiffs and wiffs hard. You want to fly over units to drop the bomb, but if you do that you're not going to be in re-roll range from Sammy or the Talon Masters, hence the wiffing. The stasis bomb -- if I can even get it off before it gets shot off the board -- will do 4-5 mortal wounds consistently.
Black Knights. Super deadly if they stay alive and can get in range. I'm thinking about trying out 3 units of 4 -- force my opponent to split up fire vs having one large blob. That's 456pts though.
Plasma Inceptors could be interesting to try. The deepstriking would be fantastic, but I feel like you'd probably want to land them near your castle to get re-rolls so they don't just kill themselves if they overcharge.
Since the hurricane bolters have been doing well, i'm tempted to just take a bunch of ravenwing bikers. 6 bikers will get you to 24 bolter shots. Add in some plasma guns or melta guns to add some teeth.
My biggest challenge at the moment is figuring out how to deal with Knights assuming any/all Black Knights are going to be their #1 target.
Bikers are too fragile, they wont live long enough to kill knights.
Best bet is deepstriking blood angels captains, or getting a knight yourself
Bikers are too fragile, they wont live long enough to kill knights.
Best bet is deepstriking blood angels captains, or getting a knight yourself
But I think Bullyboy was mostly interested in running a mono codex with the new ITC changes to best in faction. If that's the case, looking at DA options on taking down knights.
I'm surprised more people don't mention the DA Librarian. On 6+ he can reduce BS by 1 (Aversion). On 7+ Mind wipe he can reduce BS and WS by 1 for the remained of the match. These also have a long range 18-24 unlike say null zone.
With Reavers and a Relicy and re-rolls the Libb has a very good chance of getting off Mind Wipe. Thus a top tier Knight is hitting on 5+, and 6+ if its degraded.
Gareth_Evans wrote: I'm surprised more people don't mention the DA Librarian. On 6+ he can reduce BS by 1 (Aversion). On 7+ Mind wipe he can reduce BS and WS by 1 for the remained of the match. These also have a long range 18-24 unlike say null zone.
With Reavers and a Relicy and re-rolls the Libb has a very good chance of getting off Mind Wipe. Thus a top tier Knight is hitting on 5+, and 6+ if its degraded.
I've had some success with Aversion/Mind Wiping a knight. If you still have a dark shroud too it makes hitting some things impossible. Kinda cool, but Mind wipe isn't as easy to get off, but aversion certainly is.
That's my big issue at the moment we don't have a lot of solid options for dealing with Knights if we go mono Dex black Knights are target no1 if you go the Ravenwing route hellblasters are easy to stay out of there range predators with kill shoot are not to bad but you need to first as the stupid crutchstellan will easily kill 2 out of the 3
As I've mentioned before, if you're willing to get allied help stack Aversion with a Space Wolves Rune Priest casting Tempest's Wrath for -2 to hit on something. You could even consider taking a Phobos Librarian with Hallucination for a potential -3 to hit without needing Mind Wipe to go off (and since Hallucination reduces Leadership, it makes Mind Wipe easier to land). It's a fair amount of points for what amounts to a funny gimmick, but being able to completely neuter a Castellan without having to try and shoot it down isn't a terrible idea.
Not really interested in adding allies.
Libby and darkshroud to reduce incoming, quick movers with lots of dakka, some troops for CP and ground control, then the final piece of the jigsaw....hitting power to take on knights.
bullyboy wrote: Not really interested in adding allies.
Libby and darkshroud to reduce incoming, quick movers with lots of dakka, some troops for CP and ground control, then the final piece of the jigsaw....hitting power to take on knights.
Given all that, what about something like this?
Air Wing Detachment
Dark Talon x3
Outrider Detachment
Talonmaster x1
Inceptors with Plasma Exterminators x2 (3 man units)
Ravenwing Bikers with 2 Plasma Guns and 1 Combi Plasma x2 (3 man units)
Dark Shroud
Battalion Detachment
Sammael in Sableclaw
Librarian on Bike (Aversion, Mind Wipe)
Scouts x3
Starting on 10 CP. Fair amount of shooting for hordes, plasma still feels a bit on the weak side for dealing with Knights, but the Librarian could help with that.
bullyboy wrote: Yeah, that doesnt work vs knights. Plus I want Sammy, TM and DTs in the vigilus detachment.
You could run a single Battalion and get most of the things you want in one detachment for the Vigilus stratagem, but you'd only get up to 2 Dark Talons, which may be enough.
Without the extra DT, Inceptors and Bikers you have about 750pts to play with.
3 units of scouts bare minimum is 165.
Intercessors are pretty decent for sitting on objectives if they're in cover.
For AT, this is the tough part.
Venerable Dreads with Twin Las + Missile launcher are 140pts. Hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1's if they don't move, 6+ FNP, and they don't degrade. No invulnerable save though and only 8 wounds.
Predators with all Lascannons for 180pts... no invlun, FNP and they degrade....
Not sure Hellblasters or Devastators are the right move without Azrael and maybe even a lieutenant nearby.
This is why i'm looking at some Plasma Inceptors to drop down. They're not going to kill a knight by themselves, unless you get really lucky. Maybe dropping down with a JP librarian to cast at least Aversion and possibly Mindwipe onto the target. If you'd bracket it and get 1 of those 2 abilities off it's already -2 at least. Of course they'll just use the strat to make it shoot at the top profile next turn.
Deathwing knights could be interesting if there were a reliable way to get them into CC without needing a transport.
I am looking at Deathwing knights and possibly making use of the reroll charge warlord trait (tough to give up Brilliant Strategist though). I am thinking that the ven Dread may have to be the way to go, simply because it's relatively cheap now.
As for troops, possibly 2x sniper scouts and 1 infiltrator (open up that zone for Ravenwing/Deathwing)
turmoil wrote: 3 units of scouts bare minimum is 165.
Intercessors are pretty decent for sitting on objectives if they're in cover.
For AT, this is the tough part.
Venerable Dreads with Twin Las + Missile launcher are 140pts. Hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1's if they don't move, 6+ FNP, and they don't degrade. No invulnerable save though and only 8 wounds.
Predators with all Lascannons for 180pts... no invlun, FNP and they degrade....
Not sure Hellblasters or Devastators are the right move without Azrael and maybe even a lieutenant nearby.
This is why i'm looking at some Plasma Inceptors to drop down. They're not going to kill a knight by themselves, unless you get really lucky. Maybe dropping down with a JP librarian to cast at least Aversion and possibly Mindwipe onto the target. If you'd bracket it and get 1 of those 2 abilities off it's already -2 at least. Of course they'll just use the strat to make it shoot at the top profile next turn.
Deathwing knights could be interesting if there were a reliable way to get them into CC without needing a transport.
The strat allows the knight to shoot at the top profile. I'm not aware that it removes externally placed -1 to hit though.
bullyboy wrote: I am looking at Deathwing knights and possibly making use of the reroll charge warlord trait (tough to give up Brilliant Strategist though). I am thinking that the ven Dread may have to be the way to go, simply because it's relatively cheap now.
As for troops, possibly 2x sniper scouts and 1 infiltrator (open up that zone for Ravenwing/Deathwing)
Libby term arm 112
5 DW knights, watcher 190
Ven dread 140
Ven Dread 140
67pts left
Not sold completely on the BKs though although with Signal the Attack, overcharging plasma is no worry at all.
Played a fun game today with a list that, at its core, was similar to yours. We are having a 1250 Supreme Commander tournament next month, and while family commitments prevent me from playing I enjoy the format and brought a list very similar to your core. I came to the store ready to play either 1250 against folks prepping or 2000 points. I played against a GSC/AM list at 2000 points today. He had two Leman Russ, three Sentinels and a bunch of infantry plus GSC units. My 2000 list was:
Battalion: (Ravenwing Attack Sqn)
Sammy in Sableclaw (Warlord)
Talonmaster
Librarian on a Bike
Dark Shroud
Dark Talon
Black Knights x 6
Intercessors x 5
Intercessors x 5
Scouts x 5
Deathwing Knights x 5
Spearhead
Lieutenant
Devastators (3 x Plasma Cannon)
Devastators (2 x Lascannon)
Devastators (2 x Missile Launcher)
We played Dawn of War with four objectives. I won the roll to go first but he seized. At the end of his shooting I had lost the Dark Shroud and the Dark Talon plus one Ravenwing Black Knight. The Black Knights killed a Leman Russ, while the Lascannon Devastators and Plasma Devastators killed the other. On his turn 2 his arriving Abberants wiped out my Black Knights. In return my fire wrote down his Abberents who were finished off by the arriving Deathwing Knights (who re-rolled their charge due to Sammy). The DW Knights then died to a counter-attack led by a Hammer-wielding brute. Those GSC units were gunned down in turn by Sammy and the Talonmaster who had two Intercessor squads as armour. The next two turns saw Sammy and the Talonmaster wipe out the rest of the enemy squads near the objectives while the Devastators took out the Sentinels.
I have found over the last year that a Talonmaster is better than a Dark Talon. The Talonmaster pumps out the firepower while staying safe behind non-character units. I think that they over-nerfed the Dark Talon last spring. The Rule of Three was all that was needed for the Dark Talon. The Black Knights made their points, I guess, and also functioned as a very expensive distraction Carnifex. I put the Deathwing Knights in for fun - they did OK in a match that did let them truly shine. The Plasma Devastators were effective. I will keep running them for now.
bullyboy wrote: Have you thought about using infiltrators instead of intercessors to be a better shield for the speeder characters? I do like your list though.
Hadn't considered that - I just took a look at their stats/rules and they could absolutely help forming the pocket in which the Ravenwing Black Knights could operate! Black Knights really suffer if they don't get first turn and they lack true LOS blocking terrain. Even with such terrain, their short range can be a handicap even with Speed of the Raven. I find once they are rolling they can hope for 4++ saves but they do need something to keep chargers away. I've been using Scouts for that, but the durability and special rules of the Infiltrators looks appealing! I have been loving Intercessors with the Beta Bolter Rules as my back-field objective holders. I will juggle some points and see how Infiltrators work.
I am seeing Sammael and the Talonmaster(s) more and more as the true heavy-lifters in my list.
Infiltrators cost too many points for what they bring. Being able to put Primaris Marines in no-man's land seems good, but they cost twice as much as Scouts and 5 points per model more than Intercessors, both of which are decent units. Now, against armies like GSC that love to use reserves to bring in the big nasties, the 12 inch bubble of NOPE! is very nice indeed. Problem is, most opponents will just kill them on the first turn and then deep strike normally on the second. Since they will be deployed forward most of the time, they'll be a fairly easy charge target for Orks or GSC or even Chaos melee units. I'm not mentioning the chance of them being shot off the board because presumably they will be hidden in ruins or something. If they cost less points, this wouldn't be that big of an issue, as it does cause some target priority problems for the opponent, but when you are losing that many points on them, it is less of a worthwhile trade.
All that being said, I suspect that GW will reduce their cost once they realize that nobody is playing them. I hope they do, as the models are awesome and they have decent rules. The only thing keeping them from competitive play is their high cost, which is why you still see Scouts and occasionally Intercessors being used instead.
turmoil wrote: Anyone thinking about squeezing in an Assassin for -1CP and 85 pts? It doesn't affect your best in faction points either.
I want to, but my current list is already so tight on points that I can't free up the 85 I need without gimping it. I'm probably going to try other lists as well and then I'll be able to run one.
I am going to be playing a game tomorrow, most likely against Imperial Soup list or maybe a gunline Ultramarine list. I am bringing:
Batallion
Termie Librarian
Termie Master
3 10 man tac squads with PG, PC and sgt with Combi Plas
3 Dev squads. 1 with 3 Las, 1 with 3 Missile and 1 with 2 Las and a Plasmacannon
Vanguard:
Belial
Deathwing Ancient
Deathwing Apothecary
Deathwing squad: 2 Assault Cannon and PF, 2 with Chainfist and SB, 5 SB and PF, Sgt with Power Sword and SB.
Well, that didn't go well. Fought against an Imperial Soup list with 3 Knights, including a Castellan, the Loyal 32 and some Custodes with Trajan.
High point was that when my Deathwing squad landed they wiped out 2 full squads of Guardsmen and managed to weather the fire of the Custodes and 2 of the Knights. Only dropped 6 of them.
It is what it is. Not much I could have done against that level of cheese anyway.
I just had a game last night myself. I lost, but I learned some lessons and it's always good to get more reps in. My biggest bonehead play was deciding to supercharge my Black Knights' plasma on overwatch. Ended up losing almost half the squad to overheats. And then the rest got mowed down in close combat anyway (the final guy fled because of morale). I also have a bad habit of being too aggressive with my scout squads, and splitting up my guys too much.
I have 2 three man bike squads with sgt's and power weapons. It has been running through my head to try and convert them into being Black Knights. Really only need the plasma bits from Ebay and I could do without any problems.
That is my first reaction though, which is usually incorrect. I was facing a list that is totally unique in what it does. Against any other list or even a Soup list with just the Castellan I think I would have performed much better.
The Ancient and the Apothecary didn't really earn their points to be honest. They were a hell of a distraction though. I could run a squad of 6 bikes with an attack bike MM in their place.
Reivax26 wrote: I have 2 three man bike squads with sgt's and power weapons. It has been running through my head to try and convert them into being Black Knights. Really only need the plasma bits from Ebay and I could do without any problems.
That is my first reaction though, which is usually incorrect. I was facing a list that is totally unique in what it does. Against any other list or even a Soup list with just the Castellan I think I would have performed much better.
The Ancient and the Apothecary didn't really earn their points to be honest. They were a hell of a distraction though. I could run a squad of 6 bikes with an attack bike MM in their place.
Any thoughts on that?
I think if you need some shooting the 6 bikes + attack bike could be good. If they were apart of the Ravenwing Attack Squad it could help cause a wound on something so you could use the +1 to hit strat for your other units in the squad.
I had somewhat fluffy game the other day against a primaris ultramarines army. He didn't really have much in the way of threats other than aggressors or hell blasters (no Bobby G). As always, the Talonmasters did the majority of the heavy lifting. -1 AP S5/6 and ignoring cover was invaluable. Both my Dark Talons more or less wiffed hard and then got shot down from the hell blasters. I got to use the plasma inceptors. They did their job. Drop down. Delete something. Get deleted the next turn. They're not bad, I just wish they weren't so expensive and could synergize better with the ravenwing.
Still not sure if I want to even try mono-DA competitively. Talonmasters and Sammael are great. Dark Talons can be alright depending on who you're playing. Black Knights can also be great, but are just a bit too expensive.
Reivax26 wrote: I am going to be playing a game tomorrow, most likely against Imperial Soup list or maybe a gunline Ultramarine list. I am bringing:
Batallion
Termie Librarian
Termie Master
3 10 man tac squads with PG, PC and sgt with Combi Plas
3 Dev squads. 1 with 3 Las, 1 with 3 Missile and 1 with 2 Las and a Plasmacannon
Vanguard:
Belial
Deathwing Ancient
Deathwing Apothecary
Deathwing squad: 2 Assault Cannon and PF, 2 with Chainfist and SB, 5 SB and PF, Sgt with Power Sword and SB.
2000 points and 60 models with 6 cp.
Unfortunately, this list does have some glaring weaknesses.
I would certainly drop the Ancient and Apothecary, plus the termie master.
tactical sqds are a little but meh for my tastes, but if you do decide to keep them I would switch out the hvy weapons. Go 3 5 man sqds with a lascannon and then put your 4 plasmacannons in the dev sqd (with afew ablative bodies). If you want a mobile tac sqd, just keep the plasma gun and combi, dropping the heavies.
So that would start with...
Belial
Terminator Librarian
10 terminators as you've got already.
3x5 tac with lascannon
8 dev marines, 4 plasma cannons
See what you can add from there.
As for the Black Knights, I wouldn't add these until you decide to go all in with the Ravenwing (Sammael, Talon Master, darkshroud).
Reivax26 wrote: I am tempted to pick up a Dark Talon. I keep hearing mixed reviews about it. Would be simpler to just get the bits and convert my bikes to be Knights.
Could field a 5 man squad of them for about the same points as the Ancient and the Apothecary.
Black Knights are a unit I used to not like very much, but I'm definitely warming up to them now. The Ravenwing Attack Squadron from the first Vigilus book adds some shenanigans that they can do. The Ancient and Apothecary are not worth their points honestly. Black Knights do have a decent CC weapon, but they generally don't want to actually be in CC very much, so giving them more attacks is not a big deal. And one more attack on Sammy or a Talonmaster isn't that useful either (or rather it is, but it's not worth spending that many points on an Ancient).
As for a Dark Talon, you should absolutely get one. I run two of them in my lists nowadays, and they are GOD TIER. I kid you not, they do work for me in just about every single game. Even if they get taken down early, they get stuff done, or absorb fire that would otherwise get put into your bikes and stuff.
My local GW managed to get one and put it aside for me. Picked it up today...good thing as it looked available online but then said out of stock when trying to add it to cart.
I found a Dark Talon in an FLGS in Germany last year on a business trip. Snapped it up! It came home carry-on, cradled protectively. Dark Shrouds were also hard to find.
I find better mileage out of Talonmasters, but maybe I'm using my Flyers wrong.
I do intend to get another landspeeder to make a second Talon Master (although technically I could do that now if I run Sammael on Corvex which is suboptimal but looks do damn cool)
I also built a techmarine on bike a few weeks ago as i think between the dark Talons, Darkshroud and speeder heroes, adding some wounds each turn could be super helpful.
Just curious. Anyone using Repulsors?
I had a thought about maybe running 2 transporting maybe 5ish hell blasters each.
My thought is they have a good amount of shooting. They’re T8 16 wounds so they could be distractions and soak up some fire. Park a dark shroud nearby so it would be -1 to hit as well.
Ideally I’d run them in front of a couple of talonmasters and Sammy to screen and if/when they do go down the hell blasters would be able to get some shooting in getting some reroll support too.
Might be an absolute terrible idea. I’m just trying to look for alternatives to having all my plasma on the table (ala black knights). They’re a bit tougher than a dark talon so thinking he extra 50pts per repulsor may be worth it?
Part of what makes a Dark Talon so good is the mobility, which the Repulsor simply doesn't have. I want to like Repulsors, I really do, but I don't think they currently cut it competitively. Now, I have heard that Castellans may be getting a nerf with the upcoming FAQ, so perhaps vehicles might become more viable again, but I'm still not sure Repulsors will be worth taking. I have one myself, painted, and I have yet to actually run it. I think running multiples might be necessary, as they will be a priority target for the opponent since they have so much firepower, especially with guys inside.
I completely agree about the mobility. My issues with the dark talon are that for 200pts it’s really not that tough to bring down. For 52 more points the repulsor would get 6 more wounds and go to T8. Sure it doesn’t move as well but honestly if it can be a bullet magnet and put out some decent fire that might be good enough.
I think 2 would be ideal but that’s already about 500 points...
Went against a Death Guard/ Nurgle Demon list. Barely lost and might have won in the end but had to go home earlier than I would have liked.
I realize now why people run the Azrael castle formation. At one point he was within bubble range of the Hellblasters, 2 Tac squads and the Terminators. The rerolling from him and the LT was crazy good.
I've been thinking about using one as a transport for Deathwing Knights, but honestly I can't bring myself to do it in competitive play. Just too many points. For flyers, I just stick to Dark Talons.
So with the new FAQ dropping what is everyones initial thoughts?
The main nerf I can see is that bolter discipline rule doesn't affect vehicles which means the poor Dark Talon can never catch a break! I think I'll try sticking more Ravenwing Bikers instead for cheap chaff clearers.
Dark Talons were some of our best chaff clearers before the Bolter Disciple. I ran three before and even after the flyer nerfs, I'll likely run three still.
Kinda bummed about no more beta bolters for the dark talon.
Also no prepared positions anymore for the dark talon either.
Other thing that could possibly hurt is the rule about moving over flyer's bases. So if you want to screen any of your units with dark talons i'd think you need to keep something almost directly behind them otherwise they could just move over the base and into your lines.
I never used my Dark Talon for move blocking so that change affects me very little. Bummed about the bolter thing but whadyagunnado? I still think Dark Talons are cash money and can still murder hordes effectively.
I was thinking about the Stormraven carrying the Chaplain Dreadnought. I can imagine what would happen if he got behind enemy lines with double DCCW's and 2 heavy flamers...
So we can’t use our Dark Talons to charge things (in hover mode) and subsequently stop them from shooting? I did that lots - tying up hard to see hive guard or multiple artillery vehicles.
Dark Talons change like yo-yos! Points, bolter discipline, aircraft keyword changing movement and prepared positions , etc.
For sure they are still good. But for a struggling codex it would have been nice to still have all those tactical options even though it might have been “op” on paper. The entirety of the faction needs to be considered imo. DA aren’t winning tournaments Dark Talons aren’t even being used in top imperium soup.
Having believable rules is important but at the cost of less tactical options in the game - not the end of the world but my Dark Angels will see less competitive play for sure.
This FAQ in the meta was good but as a dark angles player I was hoping for some type of buff to marines in general.
As it stands now I don't know if I want to spend anymore money on a army that's subpar at best. Which is a shame as I started playing dark Angels back in 2nd edition
ZergSmasher wrote: I never used my Dark Talon for move blocking so that change affects me very little. Bummed about the bolter thing but whadyagunnado? I still think Dark Talons are cash money and can still murder hordes effectively.
They absolutely murder hordes and guard-like infantry. I ran 3 DTs last night in a game (post FAQ rules) and they did great, but not being able to block movement is kind of annoying now. Before I would've been able to keep two of his knights from getting into my characters but now they were able to move right through and charge/shoot.
I think they're still great units, but i'd consider trying out 2 Talonmasters and Sammael on Sableclaw. The extra TM gets you 18 more -1 AP shots and he's decent in combat and can charge flyers.
Vector Strike wrote: Speed of the Raven now doesn't consider the targeted unit to have Advanced. That means Assault weapons won't have -1 to hit after using SotR!
This has always been the case - clarified by the first Dark Angels FAQ (the original FAQ said "In addition, that unit does not suffer the penalty to hit rolls for Advancing and firing Assault Weapons." This new FAQ just makes the language a little tighter/cleaner.
I really am considering a mechanized list with some flyers running point. Still think a Stormraven carrying a Chaplain Dread and some Deathwing Knights would scare the hell out of people.
They would soak up so much fire that the rest of your army wouldn't even have to worry about being shot at.
Reivax26 wrote: I really am considering a mechanized list with some flyers running point. Still think a Stormraven carrying a Chaplain Dread and some Deathwing Knights would scare the hell out of people.
They would soak up so much fire that the rest of your army wouldn't even have to worry about being shot at.
I'd put some scouts or servitors in there for when it inevitably gets shot down. Losing terminators to emergency disembark would hurt tremendously.
edit: n/m they would not fit... I'm not sure that paying that many points to transport 6 terminators is worth it.
ZergSmasher wrote: I never used my Dark Talon for move blocking so that change affects me very little. Bummed about the bolter thing but whadyagunnado? I still think Dark Talons are cash money and can still murder hordes effectively.
They absolutely murder hordes and guard-like infantry. I ran 3 DTs last night in a game (post FAQ rules) and they did great, but not being able to block movement is kind of annoying now. Before I would've been able to keep two of his knights from getting into my characters but now they were able to move right through and charge/shoot.
I think they're still great units, but i'd consider trying out 2 Talonmasters and Sammael on Sableclaw. The extra TM gets you 18 more -1 AP shots and he's decent in combat and can charge flyers.
The list I'm working with now has 2 Dark Talons, Sammy, and 2 Talonmasters. Hordes pretty much get hosed. I also have a big unit of Black Knights, which I'm liking more and more these days despite my early reservations about them. If you're playing on Planet Bowling Ball then they are bad, but if you can deploy them away from your opponent's scariest guns, preferably behind terrain, they'll live long enough to get something done. The Attack Squadron from the first Vigilus book turns them up to 11 with the neato strats.
ZergSmasher wrote: I never used my Dark Talon for move blocking so that change affects me very little. Bummed about the bolter thing but whadyagunnado? I still think Dark Talons are cash money and can still murder hordes effectively.
They absolutely murder hordes and guard-like infantry. I ran 3 DTs last night in a game (post FAQ rules) and they did great, but not being able to block movement is kind of annoying now. Before I would've been able to keep two of his knights from getting into my characters but now they were able to move right through and charge/shoot.
I think they're still great units, but i'd consider trying out 2 Talonmasters and Sammael on Sableclaw. The extra TM gets you 18 more -1 AP shots and he's decent in combat and can charge flyers.
The list I'm working with now has 2 Dark Talons, Sammy, and 2 Talonmasters. Hordes pretty much get hosed. I also have a big unit of Black Knights, which I'm liking more and more these days despite my early reservations about them. If you're playing on Planet Bowling Ball then they are bad, but if you can deploy them away from your opponent's scariest guns, preferably behind terrain, they'll live long enough to get something done. The Attack Squadron from the first Vigilus book turns them up to 11 with the neato strats.
I like it! Keep the Black Knights away from the Lootas until they are dead! Otherwise Black Knights can wreck most opponents once they get Jinking.
Reivax26 wrote: Actually 5 Deathwing Knights, Techmarine and that Dread can all be transported. The Techmarine could help keep it alive. Not a waste of points either.
