I've had a half-dozen real games with Dark Angels in 9th Edition. I have used the Codex and Ritual of the Damned along with their FAQs. My impression is that 9th favours armies that can physically dominate the middle of the board early and then challenge the opponent's deployment zone. The terrain rules mean that while a gunline still has value, it is not the path to victory.
I have found that Deathwing Terminators and Aggressors have done well. An Azrael and Lieutenant bubble of either of these units moving up to the middle objectives has done well. Two squads of Deathwing or two squads of Aggressors have been effective. A Chaplain walking along allowing Aggressors to shoot as if they remained stationary cranks up the firepower, especially in Turn 2 when Tactical Doctrine kicks in. A Deathwing Ancient with the 5+++ aura can keep Deathwing Terminator squads on their feet. A Ravenwing Apothecary can allow a squad of Deathwing Knights to either kill that one enemy unit unit that you hate or mess up the enemy's deployment zone.
Regarding the new Indomitus units, the Outriders have been money even without the Ravenwing keyword (yet.) Finally we have a bike unit that isn't afraid to mix it up in melee while also dishing out the dakka. Once they receive the Ravenwing keyword they will be even better with Speed of the Raven. Black Knights will still have a place, but Outriders should become a staple.
The Bladeguard have done well, but I'm not yet seeing how they will really benefit from the Deathwing keyword (when they presumably receive it) unless some changes are made to the existing stratagems. It would be great if the Bladeguard Ancient is allowed to take the 5+++ Relic allowing the Bladeguard to be more resilient.
The Eradicators do not really benefit from anything inherently Dark Angels with the exception of walking along with Azrael. Chaplain inspired Aggressors for crowd control while the Eradicators deal with big targets all under an Azrael aura is a decent combo.
Looking towards the new Codex and Supplement, the changes to Grim Resolve offer pluses and minuses. Standing still is not a great idea, but heavy weapons with a +1 to hit and a reroll from a Master or Azrael is not a bad thing. We'll see how the Dark Angels' Chaplain Litany works out in the new edition. He could become an auto-include. The expected changes to plasma overheating mean that leaving Plasma squads on their own without a reroll will be more dangerous than today (no native reroll 1). It will also mean that we can't shenanigan our way out of overcharging. It will also mean that our opponent can't shenanigan our Plasma guys into overheating on 2s. All in all I think its a positive thing.
BillyN831 wrote: What are the top three to five best Dark Angels units? Thank you.
That's a tough question and somewhat subjective. Your Mileage May Vary is going to be especially applicable as some units will be meta dependent. That being said, here's a few units that I think will be very solid in 9th (take with a grain of salt as I have yet to play a game of 9th thanks to our old pal COVID...):
Ravenwing Talonmaster: Probably better than ever before now that it has come down in points (especially good since almost everything else went up in the edition change). Solid firepower and it's a character to boot. And it gives a Lieutenant buff and allows Ravenwing (including itself) to ignore the benefits of cover. Very spicy!
Sammael in Sableclaw: Similar reasons to the Talonmaster above; probably our best Captain analogue.
Leviathan Dreadnought: Between the DA super doctrine and the smaller table sizes of 9th edition, I think this is the Leviathan's time to shine. Even if he gets bad touched, we can use the Intractable stratagem to keep his guns firing (unless we want to shoot whatever was dumb enough to touch him of course!).
Eradicators: 6 Melta shots for 120 points, on T5 3W platforms. Yes please!
Aggressors: These guys were brutal before, and I think they are still very good, benefitting greatly from our doctrines (extra range in Devastator is handy on the first turn, and then we of course get the -1AP from Tactical). I think Azrael babysitting a unit or three of these could be a decent core of a list, although you also will want a Chaplain of some kind so that one unit can move and still double tap.
Inceptors: Plasma Inceptors are another of the few units that actually got cheaper with the edition change, and if the changes to Plasma weapons filter through to all plasma they'll be safer when firing at -1 to hit enemies. A full unit of these with a couple of buff characters and Weapons from the Dark Age can delete a Knight in one round of shooting.
I am wondering if they are going to make Successor Chapters a more diverse group in the next codex? I want to do my custom chapter as Dark Angels and am hoping that we get something worthwhile.
I just played my first 9th edition game the other night, and I used Dark Angels. Kind of a throw-together list. My opponent was playing Necrons.
My list:
Spoiler:
Battalion
Sammael in Sableclaw
Talonmaster: Warlord (Brilliant Strategist), Corvus Occulus
Talonmaster: Heavenfall Blade
2x 5 Intercessors: Bolt Rifles, Thunder Hammer on Sgt.
5 Infiltrators
5 Inceptors: Plasma Exterminators
3 Outriders
3 Eradicators
Relic Leviathan Dreadnought: 2x Stormcannon Array, 3x HK Missile
Ravenwing Dark Talon
His list:
Spoiler:
Outrider and Spearhead, not sure what was in which detachment (Nephrekt Dynasty)
Overlord (the new one from Indomitus): Veil of Time
Destroyer Lord: Warlord (trait that lets him get back up on a 4+), Relic Phylactery thingy
3x 5 Canoptek Wraiths
10 Triarch Praetorians
5 Destroyers
2x 3 Heavy Destroyers
3x Annihilation Barge
Won't go over the whole game or anything, but I got my butt handed to me pretty spectacularly because I basically didn't play the mission and just tried to kill things instead. Not smart in 9th. My Outriders and Dark Talon both died turn 1 (I went second), but I feel like I responded well with the Leviathan wiping out the Praetorians and my speeder characters taking out all of the Heavy Destroyers on my turn 1. It went downhill for me from there since I was out of position to score much. I think the Sammael + 2 Talonmasters core will be in nearly every DA list I play since that combo is SO nasty. Protecting them is not even terribly difficult since, being vehicles, as long as there are two of them (and they are not the nearest models) they cover each other due to a quirk of the Look Out, Sir rules. The Leviathan put in serious work too, although he's perhaps not an auto-include and I don't think I'd run 2 of them. Jury's still out on the Outriders and Dark Talon as they died before they could do anything. Necron Destroyers are nasty, y'all...
On another note, is it time perhaps for a new DA tactics thread, dedicated to 9th edition tactics for our boys in green (and black, and bone)?
The FAQ that came out today has cleared up Look Out Sir so that only Vehicles with 10 or more wounds provide protection. So Sammael and the Talonmasters cannot use Look Out Sir for each other. I think this makes sense. It also means that normal Landspeeders cannot protect Sammel.
Regarding a new thread, I know they are looking at "banning" the mega threads. Its too bad, since I think this one was fairly good. Maybe we see what comes from the Codex Space Marines for us and start one then?
ps - They just adjusted the Look Out Sir again. Character vehicles do not protect each other, but non-character vehicles can. So Landspeeders can provide character protection again. At least until tomorrow's FAQ...
Reivax26 wrote: 3 wound Terminators are going to be awesome.
Couldn't agree more. I've been using them at two wounds in Salamanders the last few weeks, and they're currently better than they've been since 4th edition. An extra wound is the cherry on top!
So, it seems that all of our old MiniMarine units are going to 2 wounds now, except probably Scouts. How does that affect us? I might actually consider using Tacticals instead of Intercessors for some things, like if I need a heavy weapons platform with a bunch of ablative wounds.
ZergSmasher wrote: So, it seems that all of our old MiniMarine units are going to 2 wounds now, except probably Scouts. How does that affect us? I might actually consider using Tacticals instead of Intercessors for some things, like if I need a heavy weapons platform with a bunch of ablative wounds.
It's good news options-wise! It obviously depends on what the point gap is up to the newbie stretch-marines, but some of the old minis might actually be viable again. It's been a while...
Reivax26 wrote: 2 Drop Pods land in front of their lines turn 1. Turn 2 10 Deathwing Knights, Ancient, Apothecary and Master land on center objective.
Laughter ensues..
I don't think I'd use Knights for that, but rather regular Termies. They can shoot at least even if their saves aren't quite as good. Replace that Master with Belial and profit!
Also, what might be good in Pods these days? Tacticals? Tooled-up Company Veterans?
Tactical squads with Triple Plasma. Our current Trait makes a drop pod assault really good. So you take Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon and Combi Plasma in the squad.
Drop in. Well all 3 Plasma weapons have a +6 inch range 1st turn. So the Combi Plasma and Plasmagun are going to be in Rapid Fire range even if they get out behind the door of a drop pod.
They land side by side with the doors touching each other. Now you have a wall in front of your opponent blocking him from getting to an objective early on in the game.
Took part in a 1500 point local tournament yesterday - our first for 9th Ed and our first under social distancing protocols. It was a three round format, with no Lords of War and you had to have a named character as your Warlord. I went with something I had been using in the twilight of 8th Edition: Sammael in Sableclaw, a Talonmaster, five Black Knights, a Ravenwing Squad (four bikes with two Plasma) with an Attack Bike, Outriders, three Tactical Squads and a squad of Deathwing Knights. Oh, and a squad of Eradicators. The Outriders do not have the Ravenwing keyword yet, but I included them to see how they would perform at baseline level.
Round 1 - Sweep and Clear vs Slaneesh Demons. He had three Keepers of Secrets and Shalakshi along with several blobs of Nurglings and a big unit of Poxwalkers. I went with Bring it Down, Abhor the Witch and the tourney special secondary which was basically a variant of Thin the Ranks but that had to be performed by your Warlord. By the end of the first turn I was quite worried - I had crippled one Keeper but the rest were unscatched and he was all over the middle objectives. The -1 to ranged damage Exalted trait was a major hit to my speeder fire. I essentially sacrificed the Black Knights and Outriders to draw him in. The Deathwing Knights then came in, guided by the Ravenwing bikers and took down a Keeper and Shalaksi in the following turns while the Sammy, Talonmaster combo and the Eradicators killed the third. The Character speeders then mopped up. A nail-biting game, with him slightly ahead on Primary (45 to 40) but I pretty much maxed out my Secondaries and won.
Round 2 - Scorched Earth vs Slaneesh Demons. He had Shalaxi, three Keepers and something I called Big Bird. He also had four units of Daemonettes. My first round of shooting was dismal, and at the end of Turn 1 my army was in tatters. The Deathwing Knights, Eradicators and Sammy/Talonmaster took down three of the big monsters and crippled two others, but I went down hard by Turn 5. My opponent won a convincing victory, but my Secondaries (same as the first) gave me a decent number of victory points. I also interrupted his Ritual, which was thematically satisfying. Take that foul demon.
Round 3 - Surround and Destroy vs Tzeench Demons. Really? Demons again? What did we do to deserve this? He had two of the Big Bird thingies, a Herald, a massive unit of Pink Horrors, those Flamer dudes and a bunch of Nurglings. I took Abhor the Witch (saw that coming), Assassinate and the Warlord Thin the Ranks variant. My target selection in the first turn was horrible and I also dispersed my Ravenwing units. 1000 points of firepower killed precisely three bases of Nurglings that came back. My opponent, though, put his Herald on his own during his Turn 1 to support his upcoming Turn 2 Pink Horror Strike. I was able to snipe him in my Turn 2, earning my a bunch of VPs. The Deathwing Knights went into his army like a wrecking ball, dying in the process but putting him on the back foot and crippling a Keeper that Sammy finished off. Sammy and the Talonmaster also mowed down little Demons who had come from in from Reserves. The low point for me was when his second Big Bird took control of the Talonmaster. The possessed Talonmaster wasn't able to kill Sammy, but Sammy had to kill him in the Fight Phase. Should have brought a Deathwing character with the Watched trait!
What did I learn? Lookout Sir is something you have to pay attention to. 8th Edition muscle memory will get your characters killed. My list was (unintentionally) very good at denying Secondaries to my opponent. Never give up, as you can scape VPs as you go. The Outriders should be great once they get the Ravenwing keyword. Deathwing Knights are wonderful, but of course you need plenty of CPs to power them. Sammy and a Talonmaster are still great fun, but you need much better protection than in 8th Edition.
I came third, after the two Slaneesh Demon lists I faced. Next time...Next time.
I have a feeling that 3 KoS with Shalaxi is going to be popular as it moves fast and has hard-hitting monsters. Kind of like the old triple Discolords for CSM was. Nice writeup; I definitely think Sammy with 1-2 Talonmasters is the way to go as far as HQs, which is kind of a mixed blessing. It's great because it's powerful, but it sucks because most of our HQ selection is completely invalidated by those guys in a competitive setting. I'd love to have a reason to take the Indomitus captain or something but models like that just don't do anything DA need.
lindsay40k wrote: In light of 2W buffs, what do we reckon to a plasmastator squad in a firstborn army?
I assume you mean a Devastator Squad with four Plasma Cannons? They are great now, and I figure they will still be when we go to 2W. They will be a little more durable, while their weapon can delete W2 opponents.
Played an 1,850 game against Harlequins today. I wanted to take my 30K themed Deathwing for one last march before we see what a Relic Terminator squad looks like. I went with a Cataphractii Master (Huntsman), a Master, an Interrogator-Chaplain (Watched), Deathwing Ancient with Standard of Repentance (5+++ aura for Deathwing) a ten-man Deathwing Tartaros Squad, a five-man Cataphractii Squad, three Tactical Squads, a Devastator Squad with Heavy Bolters, a Devastator Squad with Grav Cannons, a Ven Dread and a stock Contemptor Dread. He had a bunch of characters, three squads in Vypers(?), two bike squads, two shooty Vyper thingies and a Flyer. We played Battle Lines. I took the Mission secondary, Assassinate and Abhor the Witch.
My Tac Squads, Dreads and Grav Squad pushed on the left, while my bikes would chill for a turn before delivering Deathwing on the right. I got first turn, but his debuff to range and Obscuring Terrain meant that only my Ven Dread could shoot anything - it put two wounds on his Flyer. His counterpunch looked terrifying, but The Armour of Contempt kept my Contemptor operational against all that Haywire. Watched also stopped his second bike squad from getting into range by denying a power. His bike squad assaulted one of my Tac squads and wounded Contemptor, but my Master intervened and wiped them with a Relic Blade (and the Contemptor squished one).
Turn 2 my left was looking like it was in trouble. My Cat Master, Ancient and Tartarus came down in the middle to be able to help out my left flank. The Catapractii went onto the right in close range of one of his shooty skimmers. Shooting and assault took down a couple of Skimmers, a squad of Harlies, an isolated Death Jester and his Flyer. His Turn 2 saw one of his Troops and Troope Master bring the Tartaros squad down to one model. The 5+++ was kept the squad around a little longer. The Contemptor fell to Haywire.
Turn 3 my Cataptractii cleared the enemy objective of the sole Character holding it with bolter fire as they trudged. The Grav Devastators, Tactical Squad remnants and Ravenwing took down several characters and another skimmer. The Master and Chaplain took down the second bike squad in the fight phase. His riposte took down a Tactical Squad and the Grav Devasators, but he was now down to one squad and a character. He conceeded - I was now maxing Primary and two of my secondaries.
His list had won the previous eight games. The Harlies are Marine-killers, but my 5+++ was a bit of a counter and I had lots of shots. My list would have suffered against heavy armour - I was going for a fluffy last dance with my models and got lucky with the matchup. Still, Deathwing Terminators have done well for me in the this edition. Its early, but going to 3W should only make them more resilient.
Tagony wrote: Are eliminators still decent for da? I heard they got a nerf, but I wanted to see if you guys think I should pick up a box.
Not a nerf per se unless I missed something, but they did get a price bump with the new edition, which hurts a little. I still think they are okay, although they're now competing for our precious HS slots with the quite frankly amazing Eradicators.
New Online Preview is up. In Dark Angels news: Marine Codex is coming in October (we knew that), DA Supplement is coming early 2021 (but we're getting some kind of "hold me over" rules before that), Bladeguard are confirmed to be getting the Deathwing keyword, new Primaris Storm Speeder will have the Ravenwing keyword for DA (so it follows that all appropriate Primaris units will be getting it), a whole bunch of new units that might or might not be really good for DA.
I'm actually really liking the Heavy Intercessors, if they are costed appropriately. With our special Doctrine (assuming it doesn't change), those guns should be pretty nasty.
Took a Hellblaster + Indomitus army for a stroll today against Iron Hands. It was like putting on an old, comfortable coat. The Hellblasters did what they do best, slagging Dreadnoughts, Landspeeders and Terminators. Bladeguard match up well right now against Terminators in melee, but 3W will reel that back a bit.
It might seem counter-intuitive, but Obscuring Terrain is a friend to Hellblasters.
The Bladeguard have done well, but I'm not yet seeing how they will really benefit from the Deathwing keyword (when they presumably receive it) unless some changes are made to the existing stratagems. It would be great if the Bladeguard Ancient is allowed to take the 5+++ Relic allowing the Bladeguard to be more resilient.
Deathwing Ancient benefits them and with the pennant of remembrance allows them to get 5+++, in addition to +1 attack from normal banner
I gotta say, I'm not convinced that Bladeguard are really any good. Only three in the unit is no bueno when it comes to efficiency (why would I waste strats like Fury of the First or Transhuman Physiology on a tiny unit?). And with 3 wounds, your opponent isn't really wasting shots if he fires his bigger guns at them.
Unless I'm missing something and they have a niche that I've overlooked?
I am BRAND new to playing DA as I have only really played orks for the last 8 years so bear with me when I ask newbie questions. I saw a deal on a DA army and still had 2 DV boxes in my possession so I figured I might as well pick up another army. I have also now picked up a BNIB Indomitus and was wondering what I should keep, and what I could part out.
Here is what I have so far:
Spoiler:
10x Primaris Infiltrators
10x Primaris Intercessors
15x Hellblasters
1x Primaris Chaplain
1x Primaris Lt.
1x Ancient
1x Primaris Azrael (converted)
2x Librarians
1x Landspeeder
1x Sammael
1x DA Interrogator-Chaplain
1x Lt. Zachariah
1x Lt in Phobos
6x Ravenwing bikes
3x Suppressors
1x Captain
A hand full of busted landspeeders I got for my orks to loot but could be repaired with little effort.
Also the 2 Dark Vengeance boxes as well as the full indomitus box.
So my question(s); where do I go from here, what units should be my "core" and what usints are better for fluffy games?
What is my collection missing that will make it much better.
Any tips and tricks you can share is also appreciated.
I am BRAND new to playing DA as I have only really played orks for the last 8 years so bear with me when I ask newbie questions. I saw a deal on a DA army and still had 2 DV boxes in my possession so I figured I might as well pick up another army. I have also now picked up a BNIB Indomitus and was wondering what I should keep, and what I could part out.
Here is what I have so far:
Spoiler:
10x Primaris Infiltrators
10x Primaris Intercessors
15x Hellblasters
1x Primaris Chaplain
1x Primaris Lt.
1x Ancient
1x Primaris Azrael (converted)
2x Librarians
1x Landspeeder
1x Sammael
1x DA Interrogator-Chaplain
1x Lt. Zachariah
1x Lt in Phobos
6x Ravenwing bikes
3x Suppressors
1x Captain
A hand full of busted landspeeders I got for my orks to loot but could be repaired with little effort.
Also the 2 Dark Vengeance boxes as well as the full indomitus box.
So my question(s); where do I go from here, what units should be my "core" and what usints are better for fluffy games?
What is my collection missing that will make it much better.
Any tips and tricks you can share is also appreciated.
Wow - no half measures there!
Recently, I’ve been running two Intercessor squads and an Infiltrator Squad as my core Troops, lead by a Master and a Lt. Looking at your collection, a squad of Hellblasters would be good, along with your Indomitus Eradicators. A unit of Bladeguard backed by a Judiciar would give you some melee. Ravenwing bikes plus the Terminators from Dark Vengeance are fluffy and now quite effective.
Do veterans have a place? I forgot I got 5 of those as well.
From a gameplay perspective, I was thinking more of a hit and run style of play (not sure how well that will work with 9th) If I wanted to play a melee heavy list, I would bring my speed freak orks.
I am assuming that the deathguard termies work well for camping objectives now that they are at 3W. I could be wrong too as i have yet to actually play a game of 9th (thanks Covid)
zammerak wrote: Do veterans have a place? I forgot I got 5 of those as well.
From a gameplay perspective, I was thinking more of a hit and run style of play (not sure how well that will work with 9th) If I wanted to play a melee heavy list, I would bring my speed freak orks.
I am assuming that the deathguard termies work well for camping objectives now that they are at 3W. I could be wrong too as i have yet to actually play a game of 9th (thanks Covid)
Veterans might be okay since they can all take good weapons, maybe combi weapons and storm shields. Probably better put them in a drop pod. I was also considering using Deathwing for objective grabbing (dropping them onto a midfield one and at least letting them soak up some of my opponent's nastier weapons so my other units don't have to). Not sure yet what the points situation is going to be on Vets or Termies though; that will probably determine if either unit is actually good.
As for hit and run style, Ravenwing are really solid right now and will be more so once the new changes happen. Those speeders you have should probably be kitbashed into Sammael in Sableclaw and a couple of Talonmasters. Those three characters together are insanely good and put out some horrific firepower (although with the new "core unit" changes that might go bye bye since it looks like characters probably don't give each other rerolls anymore ).
zammerak wrote: Ok I have started to build a Sammael in Sableclaw, you reckon I need two talon masters? I have 3 busted speeders I can kitbash and rebuild.
There is an effective build for Dark Angels with Sammael in Sableclaw and two Talonmasters. The upcoming aura changes will reign it in slightly, but I think it will still be strong. I used it to good effect at a recent tourney (the write up is above).
At 2000 points you could have that trio, some tacticals/Intercessors, two or three Ravenwing Bike squads and a squad of Terminators. The Deathwing can come in from reserve within 6" of one of your bike squads and outside of 6" of enemy squads with a fun Stratagem. Deathwing have been good mid-field objective holders and should improve at 3W.
I figure you have plenty of models, so I hesitate to recommend any purchases before the new Codex comes out.
zammerak wrote: Ok I have started to build a Sammael in Sableclaw, you reckon I need two talon masters? I have 3 busted speeders I can kitbash and rebuild.
There is an effective build for Dark Angels with Sammael in Sableclaw and two Talonmasters. The upcoming aura changes will reign it in slightly, but I think it will still be strong. I used it to good effect at a recent tourney (the write up is above).
At 2000 points you could have that trio, some tacticals/Intercessors, two or three Ravenwing Bike squads and a squad of Terminators. The Deathwing can come in from reserve within 6" of one of your bike squads and outside of 6" of enemy squads with a fun Stratagem. Deathwing have been good mid-field objective holders and should improve at 3W.
I figure you have plenty of models, so I hesitate to recommend any purchases before the new Codex comes out.
Cheers,
T2B
Perfect. Thank you. I will continue to paint and kitbash for the time being and see how the new codex shakes out.
ZergSmasher wrote: I gotta say, I'm not convinced that Bladeguard are really any good. Only three in the unit is no bueno when it comes to efficiency (why would I waste strats like Fury of the First or Transhuman Physiology on a tiny unit?). And with 3 wounds, your opponent isn't really wasting shots if he fires his bigger guns at them.
Unless I'm missing something and they have a niche that I've overlooked?
I'm hopeful that their squad size will be 3 to 6 when the Codex drops. Even in a squad of 3, my Bladeguard have chewed through Deathguard Terminators and Ironhand Terminators. They have not always survived the game, but they've pulled their weight.
Perfect. Thank you. I will continue to paint and kitbash for the time being and see how the new codex shakes out.
I think with the new character rules alone has made running 3 a huge risk, in 8th it was almost a no brainer. Ive capped myself at Sammael and 1 Talonmaster. No way I could bring in a 3rd.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZergSmasher wrote: I gotta say, I'm not convinced that Bladeguard are really any good. Only three in the unit is no bueno when it comes to efficiency (why would I waste strats like Fury of the First or Transhuman Physiology on a tiny unit?). And with 3 wounds, your opponent isn't really wasting shots if he fires his bigger guns at them.
Unless I'm missing something and they have a niche that I've overlooked?
Bladeguard are self sufficient, no need to spend on strats. The only thing they lack is obsec otherwise they are more durable than intercessors. It depends on what you want them to do. They are just another bow in a marine arsenal.
Thanks for the heads up zerg! I'm glad hellblasters are still good too because I'm just about done painting a unit of 10. Next will be a 3 man unit of plans inceptors. I've got just about everything other than primaris, so I've been taking this year to get them painted ( 6 month old in the house, so I'm exceptionally slow at painting now).
From what I've seen in the 2 games of 9th I've now played, and read about in various battle reports and Goonhammer articles, it seems that infiltrating troops are very very solid in 9th edition (maybe that's a bit of Captain Obvious speaking). Lots of Chaos lists find a way to ally a few Nurglings in, and Infiltrators, Incursors, and Scouts seem to find their way into a fair number of Space Marine lists. My friend (who is pretty decent at 40k and has given me lots of good advice over the years I've played) has actually recommended Incursors for my list. I recently bought a box of them (gives me 2 5-man units), so I'll be trying them out in my next game. They seem decent, a bit cheaper than Infiltrators (who are also excellent) and they get Haywire Mines to booby-trap objectives.
Of course, theorycrafting really doesn't do much good since we've got a new book incoming that will probably shake up the meta...
ZergSmasher wrote: From what I've seen in the 2 games of 9th I've now played, and read about in various battle reports and Goonhammer articles, it seems that infiltrating troops are very very solid in 9th edition (maybe that's a bit of Captain Obvious speaking). Lots of Chaos lists find a way to ally a few Nurglings in, and Infiltrators, Incursors, and Scouts seem to find their way into a fair number of Space Marine lists. My friend (who is pretty decent at 40k and has given me lots of good advice over the years I've played) has actually recommended Incursors for my list. I recently bought a box of them (gives me 2 5-man units), so I'll be trying them out in my next game. They seem decent, a bit cheaper than Infiltrators (who are also excellent) and they get Haywire Mines to booby-trap objectives.
Of course, theorycrafting really doesn't do much good since we've got a new book incoming that will probably shake up the meta...
Havent tried incursors, but ive played several games where i took 3 5-man units of infiltrators. They are pretty tough to shift when in cover, but in competetive games there is good chance they will get killed when deployed poorly, if you lose the first turn.
So i wouldnt recommend deploying them out in the open.
I think its best to put them somewhere near an objective, idealy outside of LOS to get the most out of them
Automatically Appended Next Post: It seems Dark Angels are not a good spot right judging by recent tournaments.
Does anyone have any ideas about competetive Dark Angels lists?
Recently i came up with the following:
Azrael
leutenenant
interrogator chaplain
aggressors x5
aggressors x5
whirlwind scorpius
whirlwind scorpius
scouts x5
scouts x5
scouts x5
plasma inceptors x5
plasma inceptors x5
So the idea is:
Put whirlwinds somewhere safe and take secondary mission While we stand we fight granting you 10 free points if whirlwinds survive, 15 in total if azrael also survives
I think Whirlwinds are great units and essential when using infantry models otherwise thunderfire cannons will ruin your day and they should be good at clearing enemy models from objectives, such as nurglings and stuff, every scorpius is 6d3 shots 6 -2 2 shooting without LOS. Upcoming change to our chapter tactic will be good for them - +1 to hit while standing
Azrael bubble should be able to move up the table and take or kill off any chaff at midfield objectives, use transhuman physiology for additional survivability. Chaplain with stoic prosecution will allow aggressors shoot twice and get the +1 to hit from our chapter tactic, making it easier to clear midfield objectives
I think azrael-aggressors castle should be able to take and hold at least 1 midfield maybe even two if they are not too far from each other.
Plasma inceptors are here to deal with high priority threats, they are also pretty decent against hordes due to blast weapons.
Other secondaries worth taking:
Deploy scramblers 10pts max - pretty easy - put one unit of scouts in reserves. deploy one unit in you deployement, one in midfield idealy near an objective and you should have it done by turn 3.
engage on all fronts 15 points max - whirlwinds will control 2 quadrants, azrael bubble will move to third quadrant turn 1 so it should be 2 pts per turn. then you also have scouts that could be in the fourth quadrant somewhere safe. so i would say its possible to max this by turn 5.
Havent tried playing it yet but i think it has good potential
I am finding Infiltrators useful in 9th. I had gone away from Hellblasters, but Transhuman has indeed made them more viable.
Deploy Scramblers is a fun objective to add some narrative to your game, but I have found it far from easy to accomplish. The one in your own zone is easy enough, but the other two can be frustrated by your opponent if he has any mobility. You are putting a huge “shoot me” sign on that unit for a turn. It’s an all or nothing Secondary. I have found, though, that it can distract my opponent- like a 10 VP Distraction Carnifex.
Dark Angels have not been the top player choice, but that does not mean that they cannot be successful for the semi-competitive crowd not trying to win LVO. Aggressors with Azrael and a Chaplain with our Chapter Litany can make opponents chew the table in frustration. Deathwing Knights are even better these days, and are about to get better.
The changes to auras will likely hurt some of our builds. On the other hand, Heavy Intercessors should do nicely in our lists.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: I am finding Infiltrators useful in 9th. I had gone away from Hellblasters, but Transhuman has indeed made them more viable.
Deploy Scramblers is a fun objective to add some narrative to your game, but I have found it far from easy to accomplish. The one in your own zone is easy enough, but the other two can be frustrated by your opponent if he has any mobility. You are putting a huge “shoot me” sign on that unit for a turn. It’s an all or nothing Secondary. I have found, though, that it can distract my opponent- like a 10 VP Distraction Carnifex.
Dark Angels have not been the top player choice, but that does not mean that they cannot be successful for the semi-competitive crowd not trying to win LVO. Aggressors with Azrael and a Chaplain with our Chapter Litany can make opponents chew the table in frustration. Deathwing Knights are even better these days, and are about to get better.
The changes to auras will likely hurt some of our builds. On the other hand, Heavy Intercessors should do nicely in our lists.
Heres how i accomplish deploy scramblers using 3 units of scouts:
put one unit in reservs using 1 cp put one unit somewhere midfield safe from enemy shooting
put one unit in your deployment somewhere behind a ruin
Unless opponent has any shooting without LOS it should be easy to do:
1. first turn declare scramblers with unit that is midfield since it is likely not going to live for long
2. second turn - the one in your deployment zone
3 third turn - deploy scouts from reserves in enemy deployment, you can deploy using any edge except opponents edge of the table then declare action. This the easiest one actually, last time i checked it was absolutely legal move
So, reviews for the new codex are out and i thought I'd jot down a few thoughts here.
Our new chapter Tactic (+1 to hit if not moved that TURN and auto pass combat attrition tests) is more powerful than I first thought. Previously we had reroll ones, which was somewhat made redundant by reroll auras being everywhere but now the +1 to hit is both melee and shooting ans is on a per turn basis, so your termies teleport in on your turn and will get +1 to hit if the enemy charges them on theirs..very nice with powerfists etc.
While we can't use sternguard or vanguard, these are the Only exceptions for us as far as I can see (at least until our supplement comes out) meaning we now have access to things like the thunderfire cannon and centurions. Might not be great but more options are more options.
We FINALLY have the ability to have chaplains in the Ravenwing!!!
There is a pretty cool warlord trait that gives units obsec which I am definitely going to try with large Deathwing squads. There are also a few ways to get extra warlord traits which will be very handy.
As far as I can see, nothing now prevents us from making our own chapter masters if for example you wanted to do a pre-azrael army.
Having read the rules, my deathwing apothecary will almost certainly be promoted to Chief as will my Deathwing Ancient (who will probably get the warlord trait mentioned above.
Overall, looks like a great book (some nerfs, some buffs but more options for us in general).
Anyone have anything else they have seen that gives you ideas?
As far as I understand it, theres gonna be a day 1 "get you by" faq update for us and the other chapters ( vampires and puppies) for things like deathwing knights but honestly i have no idea about strategems.
Agusto wrote: Any news what will happen to our chapter specific stratagems?
If its not in the faq document - its gone
The rules presented in the 8th edition (printed 2018) version of Codex: Dark Angels are no longer supported, and cannot be used. Similarly, if a Dark Angels rule from Psychic Awakening: Ritual of the Damned does not feature within this document, it cannot be used. When Codex Supplement: Dark Angels is released, all of the rules within that will then replace and supersede this entire document, at which point none of the rules here can be used.
new inner circle combines well with new storm shields. You wont wanna fire heavy weapons at terminators because you only wounding on a 4+ but the storm shields mean they almost always gonna be saving on a 2+ versus light weapons
At a quick glance, any of the core Marine codex units with Ravenwing (classic bike squads, Land Speeders, plus the new Primaris stuff) don't get Jink, and the Deathwing ones (any flavour of Terminator that's not the Deathwing Terminators in the FAQ) don't get Inner Circle. I suspect there may have been a hiccup with the FAQ there...
Jarval wrote: At a quick glance, any of the core Marine codex units with Ravenwing (classic bike squads, Land Speeders, plus the new Primaris stuff) don't get Jink, and the Deathwing ones (any flavour of Terminator that's not the Deathwing Terminators in the FAQ) don't get Inner Circle. I suspect there may have been a hiccup with the FAQ there...
Those classic units have grim resolve which you get for choosing Dark Angels (its the name of the chapter tactic so will get the ravenwing rules. Jink is now mostly a 1cp stratagem for the most part though(high speed focus =4+ vs shooting, evasive something or other vs cc)
Why would you take normal terminator units over the deathwing units ever?
Jarval wrote: At a quick glance, any of the core Marine codex units with Ravenwing (classic bike squads, Land Speeders, plus the new Primaris stuff) don't get Jink, and the Deathwing ones (any flavour of Terminator that's not the Deathwing Terminators in the FAQ) don't get Inner Circle. I suspect there may have been a hiccup with the FAQ there...
Those classic units have grim resolve which you get for choosing Dark Angels (its the name of the chapter tactic so will get the ravenwing rules. Jink is now mostly a 1cp stratagem for the most part though(high speed focus =4+ vs shooting, evasive something or other vs cc)
Why would you take normal terminator units over the deathwing units ever?
How much do normal termi's cost compared to deathwing termi?
So, here are most of the changes from the new index, let me know if I missed anything:
GENERAL STUFF:
-We have no Interromancy discipline as of right now, although Ezekiel's datasheet seems to mention it (maybe some kind of copy/paste error?).
-We no longer have access to any of the DA strats from the old codex, although many from the PA book are here and available to us (losing Weapons from the Dark Age, Intractable, and Speed of the Raven hurts, but maybe we'll get some version of those back when we get the full supplement).
-We also lost our old codex relics, but retained most of the ones from the PA book, including the special issue wargear ones. RIP Heavenfall blade, at least until the full book comes out.
-We retain the Ravenwing and Deathwing Warlord Traits from the PA book, but have lost the others except for Brilliant Strategist (which is in the main Marines book). One of the Deathwing ones is oddly missing though.
-Jink now confers a 5++ vs. ranged attacks on units that moved and a 4++ on units that advanced (with the relevant keywords). Definitely a buff there. Oddly, RAW it doesn't seem to go to stuff from the main Marines book even though certain units in that book gain the Ravenwing keyword (like Outriders or even regular bikes/attack bikes). Time will tell if that was an oversight or a deliberate omission.
-Inner Circle changed a lot. It still grants auto-passing morale, but now it makes it harder for INNER CIRCLE units to fall back from enemies (they have to roll vs. leadership), and impossible to fall back from FALLEN units, if that matters ever. The big news is that we basically have Transhuman Physiology baked in on all our Deathwing Infantry (except, again, ones from the main book like Bladeguard and Relic Termies)!
UNIT CHANGES:
Azrael: 170 pts. (up from 160 in the MFM): His plasma always uses the supercharged statline and never overheats, which is a definite plus. His full-reroll ability is no longer an aura, but rather a one unit per turn ability (pretty sure that's common to all Chapter Masters). His sword is now flat 2 damage but otherwise the same. Still has the 4++ bubble for Infantry and Bikes. *Update* Now grants 2 CP if he is your Warlord, and his invulnerable save bubble is now restricted to ranged attacks only, a slight nerf.
Belial: 140 pts. (up from 125 in MFM): He now has the Chapter Master full reroll ability for one unit but only for Deathwing (as expected). He now carries a Master Crafted Storm Bolter (AP-1, D2) and his sword is now D3 (nasty!). All the other stuff is the same as before.
Sammael: 150 pts. (up from 140 on Corvex): The big thing to say is he seems to no longer be able to take Sableclaw and is stuck with the jetbike. Moment of silence please for that awesome gunboat. That said, his bike got a slight upgrade in that, like Azrael's plasma, his always uses the overcharged statline and doesn't kill him if it misses. He also got the CM thing except for Ravenwing. He also has 8 wounds now, which I'm pretty sure is more than he had before (think it was 6 on Corvex and 7 on Sableclaw).
Ezekiel: 125 pts. (up from 115): Big change is his aura is now basically what Asmodai's used to be (+1 attack for Dark Angels Core or Characters), except it specifically says it doesn't stack with Shock Assault. His sword got slightly better like all swords did. Still knows Smite and 3 powers, casts 2, and denies 2, although as I said earlier Interromancy seems to be gone for now so he has to take Librarius. The fact that it says he gets +1 to cast Interromancy powers suggests that we'll be getting it back with the full supplement release though.
Asmodai: 130 pts. (up from 115): His aura is now basically a buff to the Litany of Hate (+1 to cast and +3" bubble for it). Another change seems to be for all Interrogator-Chaplains: They now count all enemy units as below half strength for the purpose of Combat Attrition tests. His crozius got buffed as per standard for Chappies, and his Blades of Reason is now an extra attack with its profile (and he can't choose to make more attacks with it, just the one).
Lazarus: 110 pts. (same as MFM): As far as I can tell he didn't change at all.
Interrogator-Chaplain: 85 pts. for PA, 100 in Terminator Armor (PA same, Terminator down from 105): Pretty much the same except for the change to the Aura of Dread (see Asmodai above). Still knows Litany of Hate and one other Litany and can only recite one per turn. Jump Pack still costs 25 points for the PA version, and all the wargear pretty much costs the same as in the MFM, except that Storm Bolters for the PA version cost 5 and somehow combi-weapons also only cost 5.
Ravenwing Talonmaster: 160 pts. (down from 175): The power sword and heavy bolter changes are as standard and already known. The twin assault cannon is also the same as before. The Lieutenant buff now only affects Core units (as expected), and the ignore cover aura is restricted to Ravenwing Core units (again, as expected). His number of attacks went down from 4 to 3, but he now has 8 wounds where he used to only have 6. His BS also went up to 2+, making Corvus Occulus less of an auto-pick (but still pretty handy). Not too shabby I think; Talonmasters may still be fairly popular in DA lists. One other thing; they are Lieutenants and therefore you can take 2 in a single detachment slot!
Deathwing Apothecary: 100 pts. (up from 78): The changes here are pretty much the standard Terminator and Apothecary changes from the new Marines codex. The only other change is the fact that he doesn't take up a detachment slot if you have one of the new Deathwing Command Squad units in the same detachment.
Deathwing Champion: 80 pts. (down from 85): Pretty sure most of the changes here are the same as normal Champions in the Marines book. The Halberd now allows him to make extra swings at enemy units of 10 or more models, which is nice.
Deathwing Ancient: Missing, hopefully an oversight and not a purposeful deletion... Update: Apparently he's now just a standard Ancient in Terminator Armor in the Marines codex.
Deathwing Terminator Squad: 33 pts./model (down from 36/model): Wargear is the same as always with the standard changes from the Marines book. They got the 3rd wound, again as we knew would happen. Watchers in the Dark now give the unit a once-per-game Deny the Witch attempt.
Deathwing Knights: 47 pts./model (up from 45): 3 wounds now and the same change to Watchers in the Dark. They are also BS/WS 2+, which could be massive.
Deathwing Command Squad: 35 pts./model: New unit, works a lot like Company Veterans as far as unit size, with same wargear options as standard Deathwing Termies. They also get a bodyguard rule for Deathwing characters.
Ravenwing Apothecary: 100 pts. (up from 65): Main changes are same as other Apothecaries, although now he comes with an Astartes Grenade Launcher as standard (which he can swap for a Plasma Talon at no cost). Like the Deathwing characters above, he has the Command Squad ability, except that it requires a unit of Black Knights instead of a bespoke Command Squad unit.
Ravenwing Champion: 70 pts. (down from 75): Same basic changes as the Deathwing Champion as far as Champion abilities (always fights first, 6" heroic intervention, etc.). One loss which will be keenly felt on our Ravenwing as well as regular champions is that they no longer get a special sword (Blade of Caliban), but rather a standard master-crafted power sword. Like the other Ravenwing characters, he can choose between a Plasma Talon or Astartes Grenade Launcher, and he doesn't take up a slot if you have a unit of Black Knights in the same detachment.
Ravenwing Ancient: 100 pts. (up from 85): Mostly unchanged statwise, and has the same options as the other two Ravenwing guys as far as gear/detachments. The banner got swapped for a standard Astartes banner instead of the +1 attack buff, which hurts. Could still be nice to have your Black Knights getting in a couple of final plasma shots if and when they eat it, and he can take the relic banner.
Ravenwing Black Knights: 40 pts./model (same as before): These are now apparently Elites instead of Fast Attack for some reason. They got the third wound that the regular bikers got, which is very nice, but the big change is that, while the cost is the same as before, they now have to pay 5 points per model if they want to carry their Corvus Hammers. Ouch. That said, it's probably worth taking the hammers as they are now D2 standard, meaning that these guys are now pretty dangerous in combat, especially against MEQ.
Ravenwing Darkshroud: 130 pts. (down from 135): Very little has changed for this thing; it now costs an extra 5 pts. to swap its Heavy Bolter for an Assault Cannon. One anomaly in the Index is that the datasheet shows it as an Elites choice but the point costs page lists it as Fast Attack, which it was before. Odd.
Ravenwing Land Speeder Vengeance: 120 pts. (same as before): The vehicle itself has not changed, but its main plasma weapon now fires 2d3 shots and, when supercharged, takes a mortal wound for each unmodified hit roll of 1 rather than disabling the gun, which perhaps makes it playable now. Like the Darkshroud, it can pay 5 pts. to upgrade to an Assault Cannon (is it an upgrade though?), and it shows as Elites on the datasheet and Fast Attack on the points page.
Ravenwing Dark Talon: 210 pts. (down from 215): Lost Strafing Run, which hurts but was not unexpected with the 9th edition changes. Rift Cannon now deals 3 mortal wounds on a successful wound roll instead of normal damage, and the Stasis Bomb is now an automatic d3 mortal wounds and prevents the target unit from falling back this turn (still once per game). The plane now has 11 wounds for whatever reason too.
Nephilim Jetfighter: 190 pts. (up from 170): Also lost Strafing Run and gained a wound. Avenger Mega Bolter is now S5 and D2. Blacksword Missiles now AP-3 and D4 against enemy AIRCRAFT units. The unit itself has +1 to hit enemy AIRCRAFT.
My takeaways:
-Deathwing are going to be disgusting with their built-in Transhuman Physiology. Even anti-tank weapons are going to struggle to hurt them, especially the Deathwing Knights with their 4++. I'm definitely thinking that Deathwing Terminators could be very annoying midfield objective takers since they are not easy to shift in melee or shoot off of an objective, and their shooting can be pretty gross if they are in Tactical Doctrine (all those AP-1 storm bolters).
-Ravenwing could be pretty solid, as they have mobility to go out and grab objectives as well as some of them being able to credibly flip an objective that the opponent is holding (D2 Corvus Hammers for the win there). Pair them with a few Deathwing and use Combined Assault to really bring the pain! Talonmasters can clear a drop zone to land some Terminators, too.
-The flyers actually have me intrigued. Both of them can make good use of the new Jink rule (they both have it), which can protect them somewhat from anti-tank weapons. Dark Talons can start the Mortal Wound pain train better than before, but the stasis bomb is a bit weaker than before IMO. The Nephilim is probably going to be one of the more efficient MEQ killers in our arsenal, but it may not be worth its points now. I'm pretty sure flyers can be useful for certain positional secondaries (Engage on All Fronts), although they can't actually secure objectives at all.
-Talonmasters are still cash money, especially since they are getting a price drop. Lack of rerolls hurts, but then that was kind of OP before. Being able to take 2 in a single HQ slot means you don't have to sacrifice other buff characters to get them.
-Our go-to Warlord Trait is going to be Brilliant Strategist. Holy gak Brilliant Strategist. The ones from this Index just don't come close to being as universally good as that.
-The Relics from this book are kind of lackluster overall. Corvus Occulus is going to be a strong pick, but otherwise? Maybe a few of the regular Marine ones could be useful for us (Teeth of Terra, assuming that's still a thing). The Deathwing banner could be good as well for making those jerks even more tanky and is probably an auto-include if you're going deep on Deathwing.
-We're gonna be hurting for strats, or are we? We got some good ones in the main Marines book, plus the ones in this Index. We can live without WftDA for a little while at least.
There is so much in there that is good....it's going to be hard deciding on characters. Talon Masters got cheaper, a better twin heavy bolter, better BS, 2 more wounds and became inner Circle (so 4+ to wound only). Good grief.
And Deathwing....baby, how have I missed you. so glad I was painting these early in lockdown. Of course, this is Dark Angels...therefore it will not last, it will get nerfed back, can't have good terminators, no siree.
princeyg wrote:In zergs post he states azrael no longer adds a cp, this is wrong. He now adds 2!!!!! (forgot how to seletively quote part f a post sorry all).
Azrael got some pretty good buffs here actually.
Jarval wrote:It's worth noting that Azrael's 4+ Invul bubble only applies to ranged attacks, so a little bit of a downgrade there.
Thanks, I'll update the post with the new info. I must have missed those somehow.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, now might be a good time for a new Dark Angels tactics thread specific to 9th edition, no?
princeyg wrote:In zergs post he states azrael no longer adds a cp, this is wrong. He now adds 2!!!!! (forgot how to seletively quote part f a post sorry all).
Azrael got some pretty good buffs here actually.
Jarval wrote:It's worth noting that Azrael's 4+ Invul bubble only applies to ranged attacks, so a little bit of a downgrade there.
Thanks, I'll update the post with the new info. I must have missed those somehow.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, now might be a good time for a new Dark Angels tactics thread specific to 9th edition, no?
I'd say w8 for the codex to drop. Much can change until then.
January it's much sooner than what I expected, to be honest.
I'm already sold on the Deathwing: new rules are a good occasion to complete to assemble and paint my 30+ Terminator that until now are collecting dust, rather than Fallen...
I'm not so sure about the Ravenwing Biker however. During 8th I had good time with the both standard bikers and Black Knight (more with the former than the latter to be honest). They still have good movement shenanigans, but looking at the Index I had a better vibe about the Speeders (both standard one with almost any weapon option, and especially for the Vengeance version).
Also, two Talonmaster for a single HQ choice are definitely a steal.
I am hoping that the Deathwing Ancient is in the main Space Marine Codex. If there is a Terminator Ancient then there should be a line about making him Deathwing. His relic is in the Index! I am keen to fly my Nephilim - all those D2 shots look good and he can put some pain on aircraft.
Losing Weapons of the Dark Age is a blow to my morale. It was a trap sometimes, but it will be missed. Super excited, though, about Deathwing.
I think we could start a new thread - maybe wait two weeks after get some games? We have a good group on this thread. Maybe something like the Ork thread?
Deploy Scramblers is a fun objective to add some narrative to your game, but I have found it far from easy to accomplish. The one in your own zone is easy enough, but the other two can be frustrated by your opponent if he has any mobility. You are putting a huge “shoot me” sign on that unit for a turn. It’s an all or nothing Secondary. I have found, though, that it can distract my opponent- like a 10 VP Distraction Carnifex.
FYI. Deploy scramblers is completed at the end of YOUR turn. All you need is "don't shoot, don't charge". Apart from some weirdo scenario you start deploying near enemy unit that gets charged or is already in combat that wipes your unit, consolidiates into scrambler unit and wipes it with fight again trick you get the deployment.
By the time opponents turn comes out action completed.
Trick is getting to opponents deployment zone. Midfield turn 1 if you can, then enemy zone when you can and own whenever you can do neither of above. And hope opponent don't kill every unit that can do it
TangoTwoBravo wrote: I am hoping that the Deathwing Ancient is in the main Space Marine Codex. If there is a Terminator Ancient then there should be a line about making him Deathwing. His relic is in the Index! I am keen to fly my Nephilim - all those D2 shots look good and he can put some pain on aircraft.
Losing Weapons of the Dark Age is a blow to my morale. It was a trap sometimes, but it will be missed. Super excited, though, about Deathwing.
I think we could start a new thread - maybe wait two weeks after get some games? We have a good group on this thread. Maybe something like the Ork thread?
The Ancient in terminator armor in the main book does in fact have a blurb giving him the Deathwing keyword for DA (I looked at one of the youtube reviews/reveals).
TangoTwoBravo wrote: I am hoping that the Deathwing Ancient is in the main Space Marine Codex. If there is a Terminator Ancient then there should be a line about making him Deathwing. His relic is in the Index! I am keen to fly my Nephilim - all those D2 shots look good and he can put some pain on aircraft.
Losing Weapons of the Dark Age is a blow to my morale. It was a trap sometimes, but it will be missed. Super excited, though, about Deathwing.
I think we could start a new thread - maybe wait two weeks after get some games? We have a good group on this thread. Maybe something like the Ork thread?
The Ancient in terminator armor in the main book does in fact have a blurb giving him the Deathwing keyword for DA (I looked at one of the youtube reviews/reveals).
Unfortunatly inner circle/ jink are seperate rules and so the units from the SM base book do not get them :(
Deploy Scramblers is a fun objective to add some narrative to your game, but I have found it far from easy to accomplish. The one in your own zone is easy enough, but the other two can be frustrated by your opponent if he has any mobility. You are putting a huge “shoot me” sign on that unit for a turn. It’s an all or nothing Secondary. I have found, though, that it can distract my opponent- like a 10 VP Distraction Carnifex.
FYI. Deploy scramblers is completed at the end of YOUR turn. All you need is "don't shoot, don't charge". Apart from some weirdo scenario you start deploying near enemy unit that gets charged or is already in combat that wipes your unit, consolidiates into scrambler unit and wipes it with fight again trick you get the deployment.
By the time opponents turn comes out action completed.
Trick is getting to opponents deployment zone. Midfield turn 1 if you can, then enemy zone when you can and own whenever you can do neither of above. And hope opponent don't kill every unit that can do it
For Deploy Scramblers, I've actually heard that some people are taking Servitors to do it. Just outflank them, come on the board on turn 3 or so (hopefully your opponent doesn't completely zone out their DZ), get the action done, profit. Doesn't matter if the Servitors die as their only job is to get you that secondary.
Deploy Scramblers is a fun objective to add some narrative to your game, but I have found it far from easy to accomplish. The one in your own zone is easy enough, but the other two can be frustrated by your opponent if he has any mobility. You are putting a huge “shoot me” sign on that unit for a turn. It’s an all or nothing Secondary. I have found, though, that it can distract my opponent- like a 10 VP Distraction Carnifex.
FYI. Deploy scramblers is completed at the end of YOUR turn. All you need is "don't shoot, don't charge". Apart from some weirdo scenario you start deploying near enemy unit that gets charged or is already in combat that wipes your unit, consolidiates into scrambler unit and wipes it with fight again trick you get the deployment.
By the time opponents turn comes out action completed.
Trick is getting to opponents deployment zone. Midfield turn 1 if you can, then enemy zone when you can and own whenever you can do neither of above. And hope opponent don't kill every unit that can do it
So how does the Dark Angels CT interact with the new mission objectives. I haven't played much 9th edition but from what I understand, mobility is key.
What is the strat für DA here? Move up and dig in?
Seems like it, looks like our thing will be early objective grabbing with the ravenwing, then dropping deathwing termie squads to hold them. Knights for dropping on your opponents big threats, maybe some devastator squads to utilize relentless hunt turn 1? (possibly turn 2 with brilliant strategist.
Im looking at 10 man squad of termies that i could choose to combat squad depending on mission, but with the new rules, 10 deathwing with an apothecary should be very very hard to shift off an objective (especially once the +1 to hit for not moving kicks in).
Adding a command squad, along with ancient +relic banner could then give 2 5 man squads on different objectives both with a feel no pain equivalent (6+ and 5+).
Overall, I think we shall see a return to the good ole days of RW/DW armies from the 4th ed book (but much, much better it seems).
I am also seriously considering a whirlwind or two.
Soooo.... the Deathwing have the opportunity to use the Command Squad to include Apothecary, Champion and Ancient... but we the Ravenwing haven't anything equivalent.
Did they forget, or it's deliberate? We're talking about 4 Elite choices (RW) vs 1 (DW)...
Also: the Pennant of Embrace is listed as the Deathwing Banner (Deathwing Ancient only). Yet, there is no Deathwing Ancient in the Index. WTF?
Note also that both entries (RW Command Squad and DW Ancient) missed from the point cost: the first may be by design, but the second is literally against the Relic listed.
Cybtroll wrote: Soooo.... the Deathwing have the opportunity to use the Command Squad to include Apothecary, Champion and Ancient... but we the Ravenwing haven't anything equivalent.
Did they forget, or it's deliberate? We're talking about 4 Elite choices (RW) vs 1 (DW)...
Also: the Pennant of Embrace is listed as the Deathwing Banner (Deathwing Ancient only). Yet, there is no Deathwing Ancient in the Index. WTF?
Note also that both entries (RW Command Squad and DW Ancient) missed from the point cost: the first may be by design, but the second is literally against the Relic listed.
Maybe they missed a couple of pages?
Ravenwing characters like apothecaries don't use a slot when you have a unit of RWBK. RWBK doesn't protect them like the DW command squad does though.
The Deathwing Ancient is the Ancient in Terminator Armor from the SM Codex.
Ravenwing characters like apothecaries don't use a slot when you have a unit of RWBK. RWBK doesn't protect them like the DW command squad does though.
The Deathwing Ancient is the Ancient in Terminator Armor from the SM Codex.
Got it, thank you!
I have however another headache... I was just looking at the 9th point list in Chapter Approved (Monitorum Manual) and there are different point from the Index... I suppose I have to use both depending if included in the Index or not? Or (possibly) the Munitorum Manual will be obsolete in few days for the 9th Codex? Man how much does I hate those documentation mess...
Anyway, I was thinking about a combined Patrol DW-RW. Swarm the object T1 with the Drop Pod and the RW extra movement, teleport 17 terminator body with 5+ FNP on objectives and grind the rest of the game.
Spoiler:
Sons of Lion (Successor Chapter) - 1750
Patrol - 11 CP (-1 for Honoured by the Rock)
I have however another headache... I was just looking at the 9th point list in Chapter Approved (Monitorum Manual) and there are different point from the Index... I suppose I have to use both depending if included in the Index or not? Or (possibly) the Munitorum Manual will be obsolete in few days for the 9th Codex? Man how much does I hate those documentation mess...
You always use the points from the most recent publications, so in this case the new Codex Space Marine and the Dark Angel's FAQ.
My idea was actually to use Greenwing and Deathwing with only one squad of Black Knights to use as Objective grabbers late game.
A combination of Drop Pods turn 1 and Devastators/Sniper Scouts make the dent. With the pods running interference to keep the opponent away from center objective.
Turn 2 Deathwing lands. Knights and Terminator command squad. Make a ring in the center and hold the lines while the Devs and Scouts continue to wittle down the enemy.
Maybe some Twin Las Venerable Dreadnoughts in support.
I think its still necessary to think about early game board control. Deathwing aren't coming in until Turn 2 at earliest, and they can be boxed out by a board control army. Infiltrators plus follow up RW will probably work to be able to get the terminators where they need to be.
I think with the number of options DA now have, there will be several viable ways to play DA.
Getting the balance of the the wings right is going to be tricky. Troops are still important for the command points they effectively give, while also being a board control element. I feel like green status back to shoot while stationary, Raven takes and holds the middle while deathwing drop to take the enemy's side. But in what ratio and with which units exactly? Points don't stretch as far as they used to and it's always been tricky to have all three in one list.
Zustiur wrote: Getting the balance of the the wings right is going to be tricky. Troops are still important for the command points they effectively give, while also being a board control element. I feel like green status back to shoot while stationary, Raven takes and holds the middle while deathwing drop to take the enemy's side. But in what ratio and with which units exactly? Points don't stretch as far as they used to and it's always been tricky to have all three in one list.
Yeah, Ive never managed to pull all 3 at once off to my liking which is why I generally stick to two.
2 10man Devastator squads is awfully tempting now they have 2 wounds each though.
Currently I own no primaris but will be getting the bike chappy and really annoyed I cant put bladeguard in my crusader with a character..grrrrr any one use the jump pack plasma guys? are they any good?
I generally use lascannon/fist dreadnoughts for fire support and am happy they got the damage reduction thing.
After using almost only Greenwing and Dreadnought for the entirety of 8th edition (with the occasional Ravenwing) I feel like Deathwing is the way to go in 9th.
A full 10-man squad AND a 5-man Command Squad (with an Ancient) will probably be the cornerstone of any of my list until the Codex drop (around 400 points). With some Ravenwing taken from the Fast Attack selection.
They're pricey but got 30 wound that are extremely hard to remove and allows you to fill something like a 2000 point even in a Patrol (if you are willing to let go the Black Knight and the Vengeance Land Speeder, probably the only other Elite worth taking instead).
As for any other Deep Striking unit, the first turn will require finesse to avoid any bottleneck when you teleport (but, still, a 6" drop if you can will makes wonders), and after that you can stay even in the middle of a meat grinder without flinching.
In the end, it's about reliance and sturdiness once you are on the objective. Once you're there, it doesn't not matter what the enemy thrown at them: 50% of the time they will shrug off the wound roll, 33% (in the worst case scenario) the Invulnerability will enter in play, and even if that failed you have a 5+/6+ FnP. Plus of course the Watcher for the rare debuff that can really cripple you (I'm thinking about Doom or similar stuff).
Even with the most apocalyptic Titan weapon that you can imagine need, in order to cause a single 1 wound to a Deathwing Terminator, to cause a little over than 3 and half wound. That a 72% damage absorption, and even more important, it something that makes our Terminator both impervious to anti-infantry and to anti-tank. Their only real weakness are Mortal Wounds, but aside that they are really an army that doesn't care what weapons your enemy have taken.
The only possible counterplay I see are some ObjSec hordes in close combat, the they don't have enough attack to clean an objective fast. But even then, thanks to how ObjSec works in 9th, you only need to throw a 5 man Tactical squad nearby (or even a SINGLE model with ObjSec) to reduce this advantage.
What can I say... let's hope this lasts. It's good, once any decade, to be able to use my painted model
I generally use lascannon/fist dreadnoughts for fire support and am happy they got the damage reduction thing.
Unless the FW Index got some nasty news, I always suggest to use the Mortis variant (2 heavy weapons). With our chapter tactic, I've never ever once regret taking them over the standard mixed loadout.
I have a 10 man sqd but will always put in 2 SS/TH for that high AP fire (even starcannons wounding on 4s will put a hurt in them, especially if Doom does get cast Although a 4++ is not super reliable and you'll be losing a pricey terminator
. Hmmm. Finding the right mix sure is going to be fun though.
Bullyboy wrote:I have a 10 man sqd but will always put in 2 SS/TH for that high AP fire
Me too, but that was more for the 3++ and the Strat that required 2 SS in the unit (and also to taunt the other Marines that can't have mixed loadout).
With current rules, if you combine all the changes (not only the new Storm Shield change to 4++ and +1 Armor, but ALSO the new wound allocation and the fact that the Strat don't require Storm Shield anymore) I am inclined to believe that it's best to either go full Deathwing Knight or full Storm Bolter (plus heavies). We'll see I suppose.
The starcannon math anyway is pretty easy, you lose less than a single Terminator for any Starcannon without Storm Shield (2 hits, 1 wound that causes an average of 2 damage, 1,33_ unsaved wound, 0,88_ after the 5+ FnP). They are also very good against any 2 or d3 damage weapons because of the precious damage you waste to kill already wounded Terminator (that's in my opinion the usefulness of the 5+: lessen the lethality of 3 damage weapons).
The more I think about it, the more I believe that as long as you can keep the Ancient alive (and eventually have an Apothecary for a 6+ when needed) I feel they really don't fear anything.
Timur wrote:when going for 10 man squad note that blast weapons will do more shots against them
True, but we can still Combat Squad... right? Anyway I feel that 9 will perform equally good, their Heavy weapons are a little underwhelming in my opinion and one less isn't a big issue.
Played against orks today and i gotta say, Aggressors are still good even without double shooting:
Add azrael and they get 4+ vs shooting, and they dont have to be wholly within like before
Add in an Upgraded chaplain and buff them with two litanies: 1 to wound rolls agains closest unit and the other one that lets shoot as if you didnt move
these guys do wonders agains hordes, and they quite tough to kill, against any damage of 1 we can add +1 to save rolls
transhuman physilogy strat against heavy shooting
And finally, chief apothecary... this guy is so good give him the warlord trait and resurect aggressors without losing CP
Whirlwinds are also very usefull especiealy forgeworld scorpius types.
They dont need to move anywhere, so they will always benefit from our chapter tactic shooting on 2+
Need to blast someone from an objective and deny your opponent some victory points, scorpius will get the job done
Played two 1,000 point games today against Harlies. First match I took a Deathwing Vanguard led by Belial (Knights, Deathwing, Deathing Ancient and Deathwing Command) with a Devastator Squad. Deathwing Terminators with their Inner Circle, 3 wounds and their Ancient with the Banner of Repentance are super resilient. I am still adjusting to how the auras work, but at the end of day Belial with a Deathwing Squad can do some good work. That Inner Circle bit is, pure magic. While the Harlies flying transports were resilient against my Storm Bolters, weight of fire counts. The Deathwing were too tough to shift and murdered the Harlies once the transports were dead.
Took a more balanced list for the second: Captain, two Tacticals, a Razorback, a Devastator Squad, a Bike Squad, and Assault Squad and a Deathwing Squad. The Deathwing shone again, standing up to fire and dishing out punishing firepower and melee. The 2W Marines still melted under Fusion pistol fire, but those extra wounds were still handy. My Greenwing hung in there while the Deathwing went to work. The Assault Squad died but they did help score Deploy Scramblers and made him split his force at a critical time.
Its still early days, and some of the interactions between the Index and new Codex are taking some getting used to. As far as I can tell we've lost our unique Litany, and the Jink and Inner Circle rules don't seem to apply to units in the Codex that you think would. Probably need an Errata. I think our Chapter Tactic is a net positive.
I've been finding Deathwing good already in 9th, and the Codex/Index has made them even better.
This is pretty much what I have found too. Deathwing are second only to nurgly stuff in terms of sheer difficulty to remove off an objective.
I'm pretty certain we'll get our litany back in the supplement ( lets face it if they printed everything in the faq why would we buy the supplement? )
Hoping deathwing captains and ancients get the inner circle rule (maybe bladeguard as well, after all background wise entering the deathwing IS joining the first rung of the inner circle).
REALLY hoping they spice up Interromancy, its a nice idea but was decidedly "meh" in the last iteration.
My main fear with Deathwing (and even the list I posted earlier might have this trouble) is that they can get zoned out HARD by horde armies. Hence why I included both a Talonmaster and 3 Invaders with Gatling guns to hopefully clear them out a little bit. Outriders can also help with their shooting and insane number of melee attacks, and since they are a Ravenwing BIKE unit they are eligible to use Combined Assault to get the terminators in close for an easy charge.
Vehicle-heavy lists could be trouble though, especially fast, durable ones like Death Guard. I've got a buddy that likes to run a Poxmongers vehicle horde including 6 Myphitic Blight-haulers and 3 Plagueburst Crawlers, which are incredibly potent push threats. Deathwing can potentially wreck them with their fists and with the right buffs could even be just as annoyingly durable, but is it enough to close the deal against those things?
Another thing I've thought of that could be incredibly useful is stuff that can shoot out of LOS. The only units I can think of for this in the DA arsenal are Whirlwinds and Thunderfire Cannons. I could have used them in my most recent game to pick on some cheeky Nurglings hiding in the backfield. Are those units worth saving any points for?
As I mentioned a few posts ago, I am seriously considering whirlwinds too. No Idea what thunderfire cannons are like but I have heard they got hit with the nerf bat strengthwise (just as we finally get access to them, typical!).
Dont know points of cannons yet until i get the book, but whirlwinds have always been on the cheaper end of the spectrum so I can't image it will be too difficult to squeeze one or two in.
Looking at the Codex SM I noticed a couple of interesting Warlord Trait (one specifically for the upgraded Ancient, that already improve the hit roll in melee of +1, negating the malus for the Power fist): both can provide Objective Secured to nearby unit (Deathwing specifically). May be worth a thought.
I also agree with the Whirlwind, it's a unit I tried to use in 8th with the combined Ravening Stratagem for maximum hits... But never performed really effectively.
In 9th, with Blast, may be worth reconsidering.
Right now, I'm more inclined to include Land Speeder of any variant rather than a Whirlwind, b cause I think the speed can open line of sight on backfield units... but I will definitely consider one, maybe some FW variant when the book drops.
And, if I see correctly, we've lost Sammael on the Speeder (to be honest, I was expecting that since they introduced the Talonmaster).
Sorry, I almost forgot:
A whirlwind is 125 point with +10 for the Vengeance variant
A thunderfire is 120.
Additional edit:
So, if I read correctly, currently we have this situation about the Command Squad:
- Deatwing have their own Command Squad, but you can include either the Deatwing Champion and the Apothecary, NOT the Ancient, because it's in the Space Marine Codex. This means, for example, that the Ancient only need a separate Elite Slot and don't possess the Inner Circle Rule. Seems a little idiotic, but whatever. Ravenwing instead got the full arrays of three support character with a unit of Black Knight.
- All the support Characters can be improved with the Stratagems (Master Apothecary, Chapter Ancient etc.) with the special relics and Warlord Trait. There is not restriction or limitation to apply those improvements on the Deathwing/Ravenwing special characters.
That's interesting, because you can have a RW Apothecary boosting on the battlefield that heals 2 model of 3 wound each and revive one for 0 CP, or a Deathwing Champion that reroll charges for a nearby unit, Heroic Intervention by 6", against Character attack first reroll Wounds and subtract -1 to hit (plus the usual Inner Circle stuff) and has 5 attacks (8 against hordes)...
I think we can keep our HQ slot free for the Talonmaster (but I'm considering Asmodai to be honest: 2d3 Mortal Wound with the Blades of Reason makes him really scary for any enemy Character) and use our supporting roles with some CP here and there to buff the units that need more support.
I dont think asmodai is 2d3 mortals? just normal damage on blades of reason, ill check.
Yep, just normal damage, ap 0. So its better than before, but still meh really. However, i think the interrogator chappies new aura of dread cold be very useful.
Situation with the ancient and terminator captains is weird but probably just an oversight.
I dont beleive you can use the character upgrades on special characters but i could be wrong (or it will get errata'd very quickly).
Certainly gonna use that warlord trait on an ancient with relic banner to make my deathwing obsec.
Is there any indication as to if our DW Terminators and Knights get access to the Teleport Homers? The new Codex has the generic Terminator data slate which includes the teleport homer ability and specified that DA Termies get the Deathwing Keyword. If you go over to the DA Index that was released, there is actually a data slate for Deathwing Terminators and Knights and no where on those does it mention the Teleport Homer. Thoughts?
Ravenwing apothecary upgraded to Chief (weird thematically, but whatever) is a no brainer. Resurrecting bikes (not ATVs as I expect that will get FAQd) needs a mobile apothecary, and we are the only chapter with one.
The Deathwing ancient with WT and relic banner is also solid. Terminators are going to be great center board, with some Ravenwing taking the outer areas.
You're right on Asmodai, I conflated the relic for 1 Mortal with his 2d3 damage digital weapons. Well, that makes more sense (I would have loved a -1/-2 AP for the poor Asmodai though). I agree with the aura, if your enemy have to roll Morale you can force a loss of 1/3 of a unit instead of 1/6.
About the character upgrades on special character... well, it seems that as long as they have the correct keyword (Ancient, Apothecary etc.) you can use that.
This is also reinforced by the fact that in the Codex:SM the Ancient in Terminator Armour explicitly states that if taken as Dark Angel can be equipped with 2 Lighting Claws (options that the other chapter don't possess)...
So, even if they somehow FAQ the other Wings special character, Ancient will keep its upgrade as long as they don't make a different entry (also note that this effectively forbid him to have the Inner Circle rule... it's strange, but that's it).
On the different Terminator choices, it's all a bit messy exactly as it is for the Ancient.
If I understand correctly, we're explicitly forbid to use ONLY the Sternguard and Vanguard veterans... but I haven't seen any additional restriction.
So, I suppose we can take both the Terminator entry in Codex:SM and the one in IndexA.
It should goes as follows:
- You can pick the Terminator from SM, and they get Deathwing keyword. This may be useful, for example, to include some special equipment for the Relic Terminator squad. As long as I'm aware, however, they don't get Inner Circle and have a much more limited wepons selection (and the usual differences between shooty terminator and assault terminator)... but they get Teleport Homer.
- You can instead select the Deathwing terminator entry: this allows access to mixed equipment for the squad, a number of additional option (plasma cannon, Watcher in the Dark etc.) but they will miss something like the Teleport Homer.
Honestly, it's not really clear. But as far as I'm aware an army with 3 Deathwing Terminator, 3 Assault Terminator and 3 Terminator Squad is legit... We can easily circumvent rule of three (not that such army will be competitive, but seems at least legal).
I suppose our Terminator don't have the Teleport Homer because this specific tactics is covered for the Dark Angel by the special Combined Assault rules that uses the Ravenwing.
But, honest to God, as usual the abilities of GW to fetch up their own stuff at release never cease to amaze.
P.S: always talking about a RW/DW army, another juicy WL for the Talonmaster (if you don't need the free move 1st turn) may be the standard Codex:SMWT that give ObSec to nearby Core Unit. You can field an army with two character providing ObSec, while the Terminator and Bikes provides the bodies.
Named characters cannot be upgraded to Master of the Chapter, that is a rule on pg 98. There is no such thing as "special" characters. If you're referring to the Deathwing and Ravenwing characters, yes, if they have the appropriate keyword, they can be upgraded.
Up to this point, I think I'll always include at the very minimum:
- [130pt, 1CP] Chapter Ancient in Terminator Armor, Two Lighting Claws (just because I have the perfect model already converted and painted), Steadfast Example, Pennant of Remembrance. Don't have the Inner Circle but... whatever. Him alone and a squad of Deathwing Terminator in the midfield will put the hurt and are very hard to shift. It's a shame he will take an Elite slot, however.
- [115pt] Ravenwing Chief Apothecary. I mean: two D3 healing plus a free revive any turn, slapped on a 20" mobile platform with a 5++/4++ when advanced that also provides a 6+++... In this case, since I don't use anything Primaris, I don't think I'll use the special WT: since I plan to use only 3W model, a D3 is more than enough.
I've used the RW Apothecary all 8th (I love my converted model), but aside the D3 mortal wound Strategem it wasn't particularly useful... until now. Now he's.. wow.
For him too, the only issue is the Elite slot: if you already plan to use Black Knight not a problem, but may be an issue otherwise.
- About the RW/DW Champions instead, I'm not convinced yet. Aside from being beatsticks, I don't see particularly good uses for them. I will definitely use them in Crusade however, they're cheap and they can stand their grounds against much more pricey characters.
In general an issue with our army right now (but also for SM) is the extreme amount of Elite choices we need (as luckily we can save some for the support characters).
There is an awful lot of juicy stuff here (I'm looking at you, Land Speeder Vengeance).
To whoever was saying that the Ancient in Terminator Armor takes up a slot: he does not, in fact. He has a rule, "Deathwing Command Squad" which works just like the other two Deathwing characters.
And good point on the Hammerfall Bunker. Unless/until they FAQ it so Chapter Tactics don't work on fortifications.
ZergSmasher wrote:To whoever was saying that the Ancient in Terminator Armor takes up a slot: he does not, in fact. He has a rule, "Deathwing Command Squad" which works just like the other two Deathwing characters.
Good catch, I've found it now (it's on the Ancient in Terminator datasheet in the Codex SM).
Unfortunately, it STILL misses the Inner Circle rules, which is kind of a big deal. I suppose I can ask my opponent if I can use it anyway, but I hope it will be Faq'd.
Considering what we've discussed, I feel like a good starting point for a Deathwing army will be something around those lines:
Elite
x2 Land Speeder Vengeance 240
Ancient in Terminator Armour (dual Lighting Claws, promoted to Chapter Ancient, Extra Warlord Trait (ObSec), Pennant of Remembrance) 130pt -1CP
Terminator Squad (9x, Assault Cannon, Chainfist, Watcher) 317
Terminator Squad (9x, Assault Cannon, Chainfist, Watcher) 317
Apothecary promoted to Master Apothecary, 115
Fast Attack
x3 Land Speeder Tornado (3x Multi Melta/Assault Cannon) 270
1959pt
Using the Land Speeder as RW elements IMHO provide less optimal target for your opponent (you lose some Core shenanigans and the Combined Assault is more difficult - you can trigger it only with the Apothecary) but you limit your profile to light vehicle/heavy infantry with invulnerable save).
A Warlord Talonmaster with ObSec (that you can swap with the Outflank special trait if you prefer a faster first turn or the Reroll charges if you're afraid can't get a Combined Assault); the Ancient with Obsec allows your terminator help to control the board, the Drop Pod (with some Tactical) will be there T1 to save space for the Deathwing on T2 and the lone Chief Apothecary on bike can zoom wherever is needed.
As long as defensive profile goes, for DW/RW you have 36 wound on the Terminator profile with Inner Circle and 36 wound on a T6 profile for the Speeders (plus the characters).
Not very much in absolute terms, but all of them benefit from some kind of Invulnerable (with stratagems to boot), some FnP and eventually can be revived.
Maybe I can include a Techmarine on Bike instead of the Liutenant as second HQ, to be able to accompany (and heal) the Speeder.
The only issue is that the Terminator Squad, the Ancient, the Drop Pod AND a tactical squad are little over 1000 point, so there is some trim to be made.
I have still to address the possible Secondaries and how to score them in my battle plan: I expect this list to be tough as nail in the midfield, but susceptible to character sniping. I've got fast multi melta and fast plasma with Fly, a big block of resilient ObSec bodies, a lot of anti-infantry (like: Aggressor level anti infantry) and some heavy melee hitter with the Powerfists that hits on 2+ (4+ +1 for Chapter Tactics +1 for the upgraded Ancient).
Still need some rework, but I'm digging it. I have high expectation especially for the Vengeance Speeder: never used them in 8th (the Darkshroud was better).
Weapons from the Dark Age - sure it could be a trap, but it sure was fun.
Intractable - Yes there is Hit and Run Warfare for our bikers, but this was great on Hellblasters and Eradicators
Sammael in Sableclaw - Yes heavy Character shooting was a little dirty, but it sure was effective...Farewell Sableclaw!
Speed of the Raven (mitigated for the invul part, but I will miss advancing and charging with Sammael)
Honour the Chapter on Deathwing Knights
Double Shooting Aggressors with the Dark Angels Litany - yes it was dirty and slowed the game. It had to go. Still
Things I am excited about:
Inner Circle - all day long! The voice in the back of my mind tells that it will be nerfed, but I assume that the Supplement is already written so maybe it will survive
Deathwing Terminators with three wounds
Bikers with three wounds
Watchers in the Dark giving a Deny
Jink once the datasheets get cleaned up or the FAQ comes out giving it to all the Ravenwing
Nephilim - might be playable now especially against aircraft
Deathwing Command Squads
Deathwing Captains
Ravenwing Captains
Honestly, surprised people aren't talking more about our planes. D2 mega bolter on the Nephilim, yikes! The dark talon also changed significantly.
I don't have enough points to run everything I want
bullyboy wrote: Honestly, surprised people aren't talking more about our planes. D2 mega bolter on the Nephilim, yikes! The dark talon also changed significantly.
I don't have enough points to run everything I want
I have not played the new Nephilim yet, but chucking out 16 Str 5, AP-2 (in Devastator Doctrine) Damage 2 shots plus the missiles looks nasty whether its tackling an enemy aircraft (2 x D4 Blacksword missiles against aircraft) or going a key infantry unit. It hits ground units just fine now with 9th edition vehicle rules, and it gained a +1 against enemy flyers. Big points investment, but its tempting. I hope to try it next week.
Personally I think all aircraft in the current edition are a trap. They can't hold objectives or score very many of the secondaries, and they cost a lot of points. They could be okay for ganking some character that you really want dead, but smart opponents will never let that happen and given the points costs that won't really be a good trade most of the time. But, that is my opinion, and in this case I'd be overjoyed to be proven wrong because I love aircraft models.
ZergSmasher wrote: Personally I think all aircraft in the current edition are a trap. They can't hold objectives or score very many of the secondaries, and they cost a lot of points. They could be okay for ganking some character that you really want dead, but smart opponents will never let that happen and given the points costs that won't really be a good trade most of the time. But, that is my opinion, and in this case I'd be overjoyed to be proven wrong because I love aircraft models.
They also have a way to get to enemy units utilizing obscuring terrain.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Things I like about the changes to our fliers...
They both got an increase of 1 wound (11 now instead of 10)
The increase in damage of the HB and megabolter
The Nephilim actually being an interceptor
They both get Jink inbuilt
The Rift cannon, although has less total damage potential, is more reliable
The stasis bomb can help lock a unit in combat
Points changes (which everything received to be fair)
Nephilim went from 170 to 190pts
Dark Talon went from 215 to 210pts
I think our fliers came out of this pretty decently
Elite
x2 Land Speeder Vengeance 240
Ancient in Terminator Armour (dual Lighting Claws, promoted to Chapter Ancient, Extra Warlord Trait (ObSec), Pennant of Remembrance) 130pt -1CP
Terminator Squad (9x, Assault Cannon, Chainfist, Watcher) 317
Terminator Squad (9x, Assault Cannon, Chainfist, Watcher) 317
Apothecary promoted to Master Apothecary, 115
Fast Attack
x3 Land Speeder Tornado (3x Multi Melta/Assault Cannon) 270
1959pt
My only comments with this type of list is that it gives away good Big Game Hunter for opponent.
Also I believe taking 9 man terminator squads to be poorly optimised. With squads of 10 you will have the flexibility of being able to combat squad them (say when you need to cover more objectives or remove threat from blast, dont forget 6+ already gives blast to D3 weapons so 9 doesn't avoid those cases) and also the 10th allows you to bring an extra heavy weapon, which you can then combat squad into a squad with 2 heavy weapons if that helps
Weapons from the Dark Age - sure it could be a trap, but it sure was fun.
Sammael in Sableclaw - Yes heavy Character shooting was a little dirty, but it sure was effective...Farewell Sableclaw!
Honour the Chapter on Deathwing Knights
Double Shooting Aggressors with the Dark Angels Litany - yes it was dirty and slowed the game. It had to go. Still
Things I am excited about:
Inner Circle - all day long! The voice in the back of my mind tells that it will be nerfed, but I assume that the Supplement is already written so maybe it will survive
Deathwing Terminators with three wounds
Nephilim - might be playable now especially against aircraft
Weapons of the Dark Age was always good IMO for flexibility. Being able to do St7 Ap3 D2 with no risk was amazing, now you are forced to overcharge its a lot more riskier. Big loss
With all characters losing rerolls, Talonmasters went to BS2+ and cheaper I think this is a net win
I think all chapters losing out means its a net win. Other chapters probably hit us harder in combat. Likewise with Aggressors.
As for Inner Circle on face value it looks like it should be nerfed but I would like to see DA win a few tournaments as proof. I still think there are better balanced armies that can overcome IC durability.
I have two Nephilims which I took at the back end of 8th to good success. Now I think the Avenger Bolter variant may have some play but you really do need to be cagey to make them work, and with eradicators its so easy for them to get popped. Jink definitely helps here making them one of the few viable flyers.
Smirrors wrote:
Also I believe taking 9 man terminator squads to be poorly optimised. With squads of 10 you will have the flexibility of being able to combat squad them (say when you need to cover more objectives or remove threat from blast, dont forget 6+ already gives blast to D3 weapons so 9 doesn't avoid those cases) and also the 10th allows you to bring an extra heavy weapon, which you can then combat squad into a squad with 2 heavy weapons if that helps
I know, but I though about it. The trade off is obviously to avoid Blast... but long story short: I don't think I need 4 teleporting squad (and I'm pretty sure there won't be space on the table to drop them in different spots); the heavy weapons on Terminator are a little underwhelming (I'm seriously thinking about removing them at all, but I probably won't since I already have the model painted). The most important part however is the fact that two unit can spread the Ancient buff further away than 4 small unit. If I had to go for smaller squad the best setup would be a 10 squad terminator and a 5 men Deathwing Command Squad (or eventually two 8 or 7 men, depending upon how many points I have to save).
But I'll let you know how it goes when I try it, specifically with the Big Game Hunter secondary.
Smirrors wrote:
Also I believe taking 9 man terminator squads to be poorly optimised. With squads of 10 you will have the flexibility of being able to combat squad them (say when you need to cover more objectives or remove threat from blast, dont forget 6+ already gives blast to D3 weapons so 9 doesn't avoid those cases) and also the 10th allows you to bring an extra heavy weapon, which you can then combat squad into a squad with 2 heavy weapons if that helps
I know, but I though about it. The trade off is obviously to avoid Blast... but long story short: I don't think I need 4 teleporting squad (and I'm pretty sure there won't be space on the table to drop them in different spots); the heavy weapons on Terminator are a little underwhelming (I'm seriously thinking about removing them at all, but I probably won't since I already have the model painted). The most important part however is the fact that two unit can spread the Ancient buff further away than 4 small unit. If I had to go for smaller squad the best setup would be a 10 squad terminator and a 5 men Deathwing Command Squad (or eventually two 8 or 7 men, depending upon how many points I have to save).
But I'll let you know how it goes when I try it, specifically with the Big Game Hunter secondary.
What you gain with 9 though? For blast it's 100% identical to 10 big squad. So you trade ability to combat squad...for saving cost of 1 model. did you lose 2nd heavy weapoon as well?
I figure if you go for a nine man Deathwing Squad then you might as well go to ten. Second heavy weapon if you are inclined and you can combat squad if the situation warrants.
Combat squad in my opinion is a trap (or pointless) if you use the Deathwing with the Ancient.
You can fill up a lot of more space with the bigger unit... Yes, you suffer the 3 hit blasts but avoiding the 6 hit blasts that saturate faster your Armor Save...
And more important than anything else, you have a bigger, much bigger return of investment with the Stratagems.
Cybtroll wrote: Combat squad in my opinion is a trap (or pointless) if you use the Deathwing with the Ancient.
You can fill up a lot of more space with the bigger unit... Yes, you suffer the 3 hit blasts but avoiding the 6 hit blasts that saturate faster your Armor Save...
And more important than anything else, you have a bigger, much bigger return of investment with the Stratagems.
Sure, but sometimes you have some objectives to grab. It’s nice to have options.
Cybtroll wrote: Combat squad in my opinion is a trap (or pointless) if you use the Deathwing with the Ancient.
So are people testing out the Ancient with Deathwing keyword? Are you just assuming for the time being that the Pennant of Remembrance works with him as currently it does not work (in the same vain that Outriders don't Jink).
Without the Pennant working, I dont think I would ever take an Ancient outside of fun games.
Cybtroll wrote: Combat squad in my opinion is a trap (or pointless) if you use the Deathwing with the Ancient.
So are people testing out the Ancient with Deathwing keyword? Are you just assuming for the time being that the Pennant of Remembrance works with him as currently it does not work (in the same vain that Outriders don't Jink).
Without the Pennant working, I dont think I would ever take an Ancient outside of fun games.
Aren't these two different issues? Outriders don't (currently?) get Jink as the Ravenwing and Jink rules are separate things in the Dark Angels FAQ, but the Pennant of Remembrance just needs a Deathwing Ancient model, which the Ancient in Terminator Armour is via the Deathwing Command Squad rule.
Cybtroll wrote: Combat squad in my opinion is a trap (or pointless) if you use the Deathwing with the Ancient.
So are people testing out the Ancient with Deathwing keyword? Are you just assuming for the time being that the Pennant of Remembrance works with him as currently it does not work (in the same vain that Outriders don't Jink).
Without the Pennant working, I dont think I would ever take an Ancient outside of fun games.
Aren't these two different issues? Outriders don't (currently?) get Jink as the Ravenwing and Jink rules are separate things in the Dark Angels FAQ, but the Pennant of Remembrance just needs a Deathwing Ancient model, which the Ancient in Terminator Armour is via the Deathwing Command Squad rule.
Agree with Jarval. The Index and Codex interactions are a little loose right now, but the new SM Codex entry for the Ancient in Terminator Armour refers to him as a Deathwing Ancient in the Deathwing Command Squad text in the Abilities section. Good enough for me!
Cybtroll wrote: Combat squad in my opinion is a trap (or pointless) if you use the Deathwing with the Ancient.
So are people testing out the Ancient with Deathwing keyword? Are you just assuming for the time being that the Pennant of Remembrance works with him as currently it does not work (in the same vain that Outriders don't Jink).
Without the Pennant working, I dont think I would ever take an Ancient outside of fun games.
He has the ANCIENT keyword, and he gets the DEATHWING keyword if taken in a Dark Angels detachment. Ergo, for purposes of the Pennant of Remembrance he is a Deathwing Ancient. RAW he does not get Inner Circle though.
I've only used them in one game, but I like the concept of the Deathwing Command Squad. As I list build for an upcoming tournament, the freedom it opens up in the Elites FOC is great, especially at low points levels (<1000) when you might want to run a Patrol to focus points on Deathwing Terminators.
The Ravenwing version of moving Black Knights to Elites and then having the support Characters not taking an Elites Slot if the BK are taken is also helpful. Moving the BK to Elites struck me as a mixed blessing, but it does free up at least one precious Fast Attack slot if you want to make a Ravenwing-heavy Battalion.
Reivax26 wrote: Just realized that he can't do that with the Speeders. After thinking about how OP this combo is that makes sense.
Catechism of Fire could still be funny on a Talonmaster. It works since that power works on Core or Characters. Just not as crazy OP as it would be on a unit of Speeders.
That being said, it could be great to use that combo on a big unit of Ravenwing Black Knights. Let them move up, shoot the absolute crap out of something, and then charge and melee the crap out of something else. I have a Primaris Bike Chappy, so maybe I'll try it sometime.
TL;DR: In the first list, we see a fair number of Deathwing Terminators (who'da thunk, right? ) along with a unit of Plasma Inceptors. A couple of the non-DA lists had Plasma Inceptors as well, so it looks like they are still pretty strong even without Weapons from the Dark Age. He's also got a Whirlwind for objective holding and non-LOS shooting, which is something I've become convinced is extremely nice to have if not totally necessary for success. And of course, it looks like modern DA tournament lists don't leave home without the Ravenwing Chief Apothecary, and this list is no exception.
In the second one, the player has maxed out on Invader ATVs and apparently they are amazing. A couple of Deathwing Knight units and a big brick of Stalker Intercessors with Azrael are the other main features. That's something I've been thinking about a lot myself, as a number of Iron Hands lists run a brick of Intercessors next to Feirros, and Azrael is kind of a better Feirros in a way.
Another unit that seems to be very popular in Marine lists in general (not just DA) is the Primaris Chaplain on Bike, with the Master of Sanctity upgrade. Makes me glad I picked up one of those models on kind of an impulse, as the litanies apparently buff certain units into the stratosphere.
Yeah its not far off my list. I like the BGV and Impulsor for that huge turn 1 charge to grab an early objective and threat.
In my test game the Ancient didnt do as well as the opposition was packing two multi melta dev squads who just burnt through the 5+++ with huge damage.
So something I noticed that seemed odd in the new SM codex is that DA Company Veterans could take combat shields without it replacing any other wargear, allowing them to essentially 'dual wield' and have a shield on top of that. Is there a fix for this somewhere?
Smirrors wrote: Yeah its not far off my list. I like the BGV and Impulsor for that huge turn 1 charge to grab an early objective and threat.
In my test game the Ancient didnt do as well as the opposition was packing two multi melta dev squads who just burnt through the 5+++ with huge damage.
How do you get a turn 1 charge with an impulsor? Thought you can't charge after moving ?!
Played in a four-round 16-player Escalation tourney today. The format was games at 500, 1000, 1500 and 2000 points and you had to build from what you started with (so no dropping units). I went with a Deathwing theme. List building was a puzzle for me - many compromises.
Game 1 vs Ork REO Speedwagon. I had Azrael, a five-man Intercessor Squad, a three-man Bladeguard Veteran Squad, an Attack Bike and a three-man Eradicator Squad. He had three dragsters (one character) and a Truk-Boyz mob. I had first turn, and my Eradicators and Attack Bike took down a dragster and wounded his warlord. He came at me, but Transhuman on the Bladeguard kept them around, not to mention Azrael's invul bubble on the Eradicators. Some fancy sword work and melta-rifling and the Ork vehicles were in pieces. Azrael and the Bladeguard hustled across the board, the Bladeguard deploying scamblers along the way. Oaths of Moment were, for the most part, met. A good start, made possible by some good early shooting.
Game 2 vs Necrons. At 1000 points I added a ten-man Deathwing Terminator Squad, which I combat-squadded for this game. He had two big blocks of Warriors, Lychguard, a Doomstalker thing and some characters. Once again I had first turn, but my shooting completely whiffed against his Doomstalker. My Attack Bike went down, but my Terminators shrugged off the fire coming their way. The Bladeguard and Azrael chopped through the Lychguard and an Ovelord, while Terminators and the Eradicators took down the Doomstalker and the Warriors. Scramblers were deployed, Monsters were Brought Down and Oaths of Moment were fulfilled.
Game 3 vs Tau. I added two squads of Intercessors, a Dreadnought and a Ravenwing Apothecary with the Master upgrade and the Relic that debuffs Invuls by 1. He had a Riptide, some Commanders, drones and a bunch of firewarriors. My opponent was quite sad at the end of his first shooting phase when only one Deathwing Terminator was dead. I almost felt bad reviving that Terminator. Almost.Terminators cleared out Drones, and while the Eradicators went down they did cripple the Riptide. The Deathwing cleared out the rest of the Tau, supported ably by Intercessor fire. Oaths of Moment were fulfilled, and Scramblers were deployed. And Monsters were Brought Down.
Game 4 vs Harlequins. A Dark Talon, Deathwing Knights and a Deathwing Ancient came in (I had skimped at the 1500 level). He had three squads of troops in transports, three big blocks of speeder-bikes and a bunch of characters. He had first turn, and was all over me with bikes and a skimmer. The Deathwing smashed a big bike squad and a troop of Harlies and their transport, supported by Azrael, the Ancient with the Banner and the debuff to invul Apothecary. The Bladeguard and Eradicators combo'd to take down a transport and the squad inside, the Bladeguard dying in the centre of the board to the characters after fulfilling their Oaths of Moment. The table was set for the Dark Talon who came in from Strategic Reserve and started deleting Harlies. The Deathwing Knights came in and took the Vital Ground in the enemy deployment zone. The Harlies were tabled by Turn 4. The Dark Talon's holding cell filled with "Assasinated" characters destined for the Question on the Rock. Squeezing four clowns into the holding bay was no mean feat. But we did it. I can't wait for the look on Asmodai's face.
I won the tournament - first time! A fun tourney with a good spread of armies (four Necrons, two Harlies, two Tau, Orks, CSM and then flavours of SM). Deathwing Terminators with Azrael, an Ancient with the 5+++ Relic and an Apothecary are super durable and able to take the mid-field, survive the worst the enemy can throw at them and kill stuff. The Dark Talon is great against those who live by their Invuls. The Watched Warlord trait on the Ancient was well worth the CP to be able to say "Not today Satan" to that power that the enem was really counting on. The Ravenwing Apothecary was also great. I was worried about CP taking a Vanguard for the last three Missions, but Deathwing now have most of their goodness baked into them. I still burned through the CP that I had. This is the way.
Oaths of Moment has been a solid Secondary. Deploy Scramblers can be tricky but the strat to shoot and still be able to do an action makes it more tenable.
Sounds like a good time! Congrats on the tourney win.
As for Oaths of Moment, I tried it recently and if you can't take and hold the center it's kind of a lame duck. Trying to shift a bunch of Death Guard vehicles with all kinds of buffs on them out of the center is nearly impossible, Deathwing Knights be damned. That being said, I still want to try and make Terminators work. That permanent TransPhys on them is too good not to take full advantage of. Main thing I'm trying to figure out is what to run with them.
ZergSmasher wrote: Sounds like a good time! Congrats on the tourney win.
As for Oaths of Moment, I tried it recently and if you can't take and hold the center it's kind of a lame duck. Trying to shift a bunch of Death Guard vehicles with all kinds of buffs on them out of the center is nearly impossible, Deathwing Knights be damned. That being said, I still want to try and make Terminators work. That permanent TransPhys on them is too good not to take full advantage of. Main thing I'm trying to figure out is what to run with them.
I'm finding that you need to be able to score at least 10 points on each of the Secondaries, but of course maxing is better! Some opponent's armies offer Secondaries more than others. Oaths of Moment, for me, is a choice when the opponent's list does not offer easy Secondaries. Let's say you avoid failing morale and falling back for the game (so 5VP), you kill two characters and a vehicle over three turns (3 more VP if its one a turn), you have a unit wholly within 6"of the centre for one turn and you are at 10 VPs. I've found it remarkably reliable - I maxed it out twice last weekend. Now I've cursed myself...I am curious what we'll get for Faction Secondaries. Maybe something about taking characters in melee?
So far, Eradicators have been good support options for my Deathwing. They deal with vehicles letting the Deathwing handle crowd control. Attack Bikes with Multi Meltas serve a dual purpose - hitting vehicles and serving as a beacon for the Deathwing.
Played a 2k game against Necrons yesterday. He called it at the top of 4. Dark Angels won 54 to 22.
Azrael
Belial
10 man Deathwing Command Squad with 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolter and Power Fist, 2 Storm Bolter and Chainfist, Sgt with Storm Bolter and Power Sword
Deathwing Apothecary
2 10 man Tactical Squads. Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon and Combi Plasma Sgt.
5 Intercessors with Stalker Bolters
Dev Squad with 4 Lascannons
Dev Squad with 2 Lascannons and 2 Missile Launchers
6 Eradicators
2 Drop Pods
So 1st turn I move blocked with the drop pods and started opening fire on everything in range. I combat tactics the Terminators, leaving the 2 Cyclones and 3 Storm Bolter around Azrael and the 6 Eradicators. That block moved towards the center and dominated it the rest of the game.
Funniest part was when Belial and 2 Power Fist Terminators killed 8 Necron Warriors in one charge.
Attack Bike Squad [2 PL, 55pts]
. Attack Bike: Multi-melta
Bike Squad [5 PL, 120pts]
. Biker Sergeant: Combi-plasma
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
Bike Squad [5 PL, 120pts]
. Biker Sergeant: Combi-plasma
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
Bike Squad [5 PL, 120pts]
. Biker Sergeant: Combi-plasma
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Space Marine Biker w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun
Land Speeder Typhoons [6 PL, 120pts]
. Land Speeder Typhoon: Multi-melta
HS: Land Raider Redeemer [18 PL, 310pts]: Multi-melta
Vindicator [7 PL, 130pts]
My takeaways:
1. 10 man terminator squad backed up by an ancient with 5+ FNP relic and an apothecary is a solid choice.
In my games i always deployed them forward, then footslogged to the center and just sat there getting 3 VP a turn for Oath of atonement secondary.
Usually they should be wholy within center by your second turn so its 12 VP almost guaranteed, kill a few characters vehicles or monsters to get it to 15 VPs As far as i know the other guy also used this secondary almost in every game.
My squad also included 2 termies with shields. This squad survived in all 4 games, they just refuse to die, and each turn you can revive your shield terminators
2. Interrogator chaplain with deathwing knights
Spend 2cp for +2 to charge rolls making it 7+ charge, you can even combine it with Combined assault stratagem and charge on a 4+.
And if chaplain makes the charge then you also get +3 for pile in and consolidation moves, this is just insane
3. Whirlwind with castellan launcher - very usefull for clearing opponents home objectives. Sometimes such objectives can be guarded by weak units like scarabs or something
In my games i always went for deploy scramblers secondary since its so easy to score using infiltrators
I included sammael in my list since apothecary will be following 10 man terminator squad so he cant be used with combined assault stratagem
Sammael combined with full throttle stratagem allows you to deepstrike your deathwing knights almost anywwhere you want, provided that you cleared screens on your first turn
Landspeeder vengeance for some additional fire power and
Based on what GW said in today's online preview, it looks like there will be some kind of Deathwing Vanguard Detachment and Ravenwing Outrider Detachment, which will give certain units ObSec. Presumably this will only apply to a detachment in which every unit has the appropriate keyword. This could be big for anyone who wants to run a pure Deathwing or Ravenwing army. Also they confirmed that our supplement will release early in January.
ZergSmasher wrote: Based on what GW said in today's online preview, it looks like there will be some kind of Deathwing Vanguard Detachment and Ravenwing Outrider Detachment, which will give certain units ObSec. Presumably this will only apply to a detachment in which every unit has the appropriate keyword. This could be big for anyone who wants to run a pure Deathwing or Ravenwing army. Also they confirmed that our supplement will release early in January.
I missed the stream itself so this is the first time I am hearing of it. If this is indeed the case then good times ahead for my DW/RW army Objective secured* Terminators are really good!
While an army consisting of the equivalent of a vanguard and an outrider would be quite heavy on the detachment cp tax, it could very well be powerful enough to justify. Fingers crossed
I've been playing DW since the Angels of Death codex for 2nd ed, and I'm now convinced this is the most powerful/viable we have ever been! (here's hoping my nids get the same treatment )
I'm honestly worried that GW is overdoing it, and our spot in the sun will be brief before being nerfed. I mean, it's a decade that I amused to uphill battles...
The current DW and RW seems to work really fine, I fear that ObSec will make them bonkers and destined to a point hike in 2021. We'll see
As I've said numerous times, the main thing I want from our supplement is Jink for our Ravenwing units that are in the main codex instead of just on our unique stuff. The Invader ATVs would really be a nightmare then, especially if they also give us Speed of the Raven again.
From what little I've heard about the Blood Angels supplement, it seems their strats all got changed around a bit and they lost a couple of their signature tricks (3d6 charge is no longer a thing, apparently, but don't quote me on that as I haven't watched any reviews in depth yet). The same may happen to our guys as well, in that we might lose some of our 8th edition stuff but might gain some new tools.
We'll, in e already lost a number of signature Stratagems (Weapons of the Dark Age for example) bit I will trade those one-trick pony everyday for better unit rules.
Bu I agree the integration or Ravenwing on Deathwing with standard units of Codex: Space Marine is really lacking, I would be surprised if they don't fix it, even considering the usually low GW standards
Cybtroll wrote: I'm honestly worried that GW is overdoing it, and our spot in the sun will be brief before being nerfed. I mean, it's a decade that I amused to uphill battles...
The current DW and RW seems to work really fine, I fear that ObSec will make them bonkers and destined to a point hike in 2021. We'll see
Losing CP will be the price for getting Obsec. My guess is that your warlord will have to be from an Outrider (Ravenwing) or Vanguard (Deathwing) to get obsec, so it will cost you 3CP for it.
Ironically, it’s changes to the SW Codex that’s nerfed my DA. I’d put my DV stuff near the top of my hobby queue, as I wanted to use the Wolf & Lion strat in doubles with my best friend who loves her puppers. Now, that ability just makes SW really good at killing DA. I guess DA will get something that reflects it but that won’t reinstate our synergy. I’ve put DV back in the loft but am watching the DA codex in hope of something more than a replication of mid noughties Chaos fratricide.
So, the new FAQ just dropped, and in the updated Munitorium Field Manual's Dark Angels section there are a few things I don't recognize that are probably going to be in our new Supplement whenever it finally drops. There's a new unit called a Deathwing Strikemaster (my guess is that he's going to be the Deathwing equivalent of the Ravenwing Talonmaster and be basically a special Lieutenant) and a table of points costs that look like they are for upgrading certain units to be members of the Inner Circle or something.
It looks like the points cost of plasma cannons went up by 5 per as well. I'm not quite sure I understand why this is, I'm hoping that it's maybe because of a special DA rule that will increase there efficiency perhaps..
So, according to GW, Codex Supplement: Dark Angels goes up for preorder next Saturday, along with the usual Combat Patrol set. They are also releasing the Storm Speeder, Bladeguard Veterans, and Eradicators at the same time. For those who haven't seen the post yet, the Combat Patrol consists of a Primaris Chaplain, 5 Intercessors, 3 Inceptors, and a Redemptor Dreadnought.
Perhaps it is now time to start a 9th edition Dark Angels Tactics thread and let this one retire after a long and useful career?
ZergSmasher wrote: So, according to GW, Codex Supplement: Dark Angels goes up for preorder next Saturday, along with the usual Combat Patrol set. They are also releasing the Storm Speeder, Bladeguard Veterans, and Eradicators at the same time. For those who haven't seen the post yet, the Combat Patrol consists of a Primaris Chaplain, 5 Intercessors, 3 Inceptors, and a Redemptor Dreadnought.
Perhaps it is now time to start a 9th edition Dark Angels Tactics thread and let this one retire after a long and useful career?
Looks like the focus thus far is on Psychic powers that shut down enemy abilities and Stratagems/abilities that improve our close combat.
Regarding the new thread, do we want to go with something like the Ork thread with a rating of units etc on the opening page? Might be useful to trash that out here?
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Regarding the new thread, do we want to go with something like the Ork thread with a rating of units etc on the opening page? Might be useful to trash that out here?
That would probably be good, and I'd like to help at least some. I don't have enough experience with 9th to be an expert (thanks to COVID), but I like to think from reading various competitive articles (Goonhammer, etc.) that I can at least make some contribution.
The Ravenwing preview is up. Big news is that we can refund 3 CP for an Outrider if it is all Ravenwing and contains our Warlord, and the Bike and Outrider squads also gain Obsec. Expect something similar for Deathwing. Our Superdoctrine is also confirmed to progress as the Doctrine progresses. Ravenwing take advantage of Devastator, gaining a move bonus and the ability to advance and shoot. Even if you just add a couple of Ravenwing Bike Sqns to your army, on Turn 1 they can blitz the central objectives, shooting, Obsecing (if part of an all-Ravenwing Detachment) and being able to benefit from Jink for survivability without having to use a Stratagem.
It was tougher in 8th Edition to effectively use multiple Bike Squadrons. Speed of the Raven was a great Strat, but you could only use it on one unit. Clearly this element of the Superdoctrine has a time limit as it is linked to the Devastator Doctrine, but we will see what the Ravenwing Warlord Traits end up being if we can gain an extra turn or have an aura of additional Devastator Doctrine.
Regarding the 9th Ed Tactics Thread, should we look at Tiers for the units on the first page along with a quick guide to how to use the Wings? I think we need to wait for the Codex to drop, but perhaps we trash out some rough options here?
A Tier - Deathwing Terminators (if we keep Inner Circle as is), Deathwing Knights, Azrael, Ravenwing Apothecary, Eradicators
B Tier - Bladeguard (going to A depending how Inner Circle pans out), Ravenwing Outriders, Ravenwing Bikes, Ravenwing Talonmaster, Ezekiel, Ravenwing Black Knights, Coy Veterans
C Tier - Intercessors, Tactical Squads, Devastator Squads (debatable!)
D Tier - Landspeeders (but we'll see?), Pretty much all vehicles
Some good stuff, but a big oof that speed of the raven appears to just be a turn one thing now and high-speed focus is just for RW vehicles. Without seeing the rest of the picture that makes it look like a net loss to me.
RW go from being able to essentially always get a 4++ with a bit of CP allocation to just turn 1 for everything and just vehicles or stuff you don't shoot with thereafter, which, may be more reasonable in the big picture, but a big loss.
Makes me a little worried the good DW stuff will be restricted to a particular doctrine as well.
TheNightWillEnd wrote: Some good stuff, but a big oof that speed of the raven appears to just be a turn one thing now and high-speed focus is just for RW vehicles. Without seeing the rest of the picture that makes it look like a net loss to me.
RW go from being able to essentially always get a 4++ with a bit of CP allocation to just turn 1 for everything and just vehicles or stuff you don't shoot with thereafter, which, may be more reasonable in the big picture, but a big loss.
Makes me a little worried the good DW stuff will be restricted to a particular doctrine as well.
The change to High Speed Focus is indeed a nerf from what we can see, assuming there is no other change to Jink. High Speed Focus was great to keep a Black Knight unit alive if you didn't get first turn. Interested to see what the Ravenwing Warlord Traits turn out to be and how they will interact with the Superdoctrine. Something like Tactically Flexible staying in the toolbox will give us another turn of goodness.
As far as the special characters go regarding the tier list:
Azrael: A Tier (agreeing with T2B)
Sammael: A Tier (he's a fast moving Captain who gets even better when there are Ravenwing around, and he's nasty on the charge)
Belial: B Tier (his main downside is that he can't use his full reroll ability on the turn he drops in)
Ezekiel: C Tier (disagreeing only because I'm not a huge fan of Marine psykers currently, but I hope to be proven wrong!)
Asmodai: C Tier (most footslogging Chaplains are not going to be as good as the Primaris Bike one)
Lazarus: D Tier (his 5+++ vs. Mortals is situational at best)
Also, no S Tier? Because I suspect Eradicators and Inceptors belong on it. Maybe the RW Apothecary as well.
If I take Belial I think he would be foot slogging it to the middle with a big unit of obsec termies with cyclones. Full rerolls and a durable threat block. Mission dependent of course.
TheNightWillEnd wrote: Some good stuff, but a big oof that speed of the raven appears to just be a turn one thing now and high-speed focus is just for RW vehicles. Without seeing the rest of the picture that makes it look like a net loss to me.
That was my thought initially and it took me a minute to realize fully where RW bikes stand right now. In 9th, RW units get a 5++ save at all times except if they opt not to move. So that means in the first battle round when your opponent is going first and your RW bikes are sitting there, they still have a 5++ save. While technically yes, the new ruling for HSF means that you cannot make your vulnerable bike unit a 4++, you do still have the 5++ as long as you dont forgo moving in your coming movement phase.
From a leak of the Supplement (I'm sure we'll see it "officially" in reviews tomorrow) it is confirmed that units from Codex: Space Marines that have the RAVENWING keyword will get the Jink rule, and units with the DEATHWING or INNER CIRCLE keyword will get the Inner Circle rule. So, we get Bladeguard with a 3+/4++, +1 to their save (so effectively a 2+/4++) and can only be wounded on a 4+ no matter what. Yes please!
ZergSmasher wrote: From a leak of the Supplement (I'm sure we'll see it "officially" in reviews tomorrow) it is confirmed that units from Codex: Space Marines that have the RAVENWING keyword will get the Jink rule, and units with the DEATHWING or INNER CIRCLE keyword will get the Inner Circle rule. So, we get Bladeguard with a 3+/4++, +1 to their save (so effectively a 2+/4++) and can only be wounded on a 4+ no matter what. Yes please!
Apologies for my ignorance, but how does this exactly work? Can I have Relic Terminators, Terminator Librarians with full benefits from Inner Circle although they are picked from Codex SM? Which part of the DA rules covers that?
There is rule that states if a unit entry has Deathwing or Inner Circle keyword, they get Inner Circle rule in supplement. Same with jink and Ravenwing.
bullyboy wrote: There is rule that states if a unit entry has Deathwing or Inner Circle keyword, they get Inner Circle rule in supplement. Same with jink and Ravenwing.
Thanks; I haven't actually realized that some units in the SM codex already come with the DW keyword.
cuda1179, without knowing what you have already:
Deathwing Knights are the best choice, but they need support from other faster units and from ranged weapons.
I feel like for regular termies, don't bother with TH/SS. If you want that, just take Knights and call it good. Regular guys should probably take ranged weapons, maybe CMLs. To be honest, if you don't want a CML I'm actually wondering if Relic Termies might be better for some things. Cheaper at least, potentially. Plus I'd love an excuse to paint up my squad of them.
Yeah, I'm just trying to decide if I want to buy some 3rd party Saturine pattern terminator armor. If I did I would likely count them as relic terminators.
So, fellow DA players. A question. What are your thoughts about a 9th ed version of the LD-bomb Chaplain?
My idea is for an Interrogator Chaplain in Terminator armour. Upgrade to Master of Sanctity. Give him the "Emperor's Judgement" relic and Warlord trait of "Fear made manifest".
We then have a nasty figure of someone who, if he is within 6'', makes your enemy units:
1. Count as below half strength.
2. Roll an additional d6 for morale and pick the highest.
3. Subtract 1 from the LD of the units.
4. Subtract 1 from attrition tests.
This is just for keeping in line with DA being, well, dark and... a bit nasty.
I am thinking about going all in on this and having a Captain with "Eye of the unseen" nearby as well, and a Librarian with Engulfing fear for a -3 Ld.
stratigo wrote: So, Deathwing and ravenwing get to have the same costing units as space marines with WILDLY more effectiveness.
Thanks GW.
This is literally their way of doing everything now, same with Ultramarines Aggressors and relics that don't cost points.
It's funny because at least in Age of Sigmar, your formations cost points. They need to reintroduce some actual points costs to things. CP, chapter tactics, warlord traits, free relics; it's ruining a lot of balance with all these extraneous systems that should just cost points commensurate to their value. Relics used to actually cost points.
Meanwhile, you have to spend 5 points for a 6+ FNP per model with a Nob. DA just gets 1-4 ignores on all ICs and Terms, thereby breaking the CP system since transhuman was supposed to cost CP. Asinine, but there you go. Not a good sign for future releases.
Matt Ward was definitely not the real problem.
On the plus side for you, if you play SM and have the biker/term models, just play them as an ad-hoc DA successor with a weird color scheme and call it a day.
I do not have the DA codex yet. Just out of curiosity, did they bring back the Master of the Ravenwing in Landspeeder? Or are we just stuck with the Jetbike?
).
That said, his bike got a slight upgrade in that, like Azrael's plasma, his always uses the overcharged statline and doesn't kill him if it misses. He also got the 
Update: Apparently he's now just a standard Ancient in Terminator Armor in the Marines codex.
) along with a unit of Plasma Inceptors. A couple of the non-
