Just curious has anyone used a dark angels “smash captain” - master with jump pack thunder hammer and storm shield?
Obviously it won’t be anywhere near as good as the blood Angels version but I’m kind of thinking about working on a deep striking melee unit that can do some damage. Thinking death wing knights at the core and then a character or two to support. May also work in a deep striking assassin that has a better chance of getting in (eversor or callous).
Without all of the strats (3d6 charge is a big one along with being able to charge t1), the relic (no overwatch and being able to re-roll that 3d6 charge) the extra attacks (1+d3) and the +1 to wound the DA captain is about half as effective as the BA smash captain. About 30% the expected wounds once you factor in being able to fight twice.
All that being said trying to get a charge out of DS without bonuses to charge distance and a re-roll is a fools errand. Looking at round 50% change with only re-rolls (native and a CP). Have a significant chunk of your army unable to do anything until turn 3 at best (if they fail a charge roll) is a pretty good way to get tabled.
I haven't found a way to make deepstriking marine H2H troops work. Maybe if you included one of the shadowspear units with the warlord trait of +1 to advance/charge but then you miss out on charge re-rolls which probably puts your chances of making a 9" charge with only a +1 and a CP at around 40% (didn't do the math but it has to be under 50).
That has been my experience thus far with DW knights or really anything DS without improving the charge. You mostly fail and then get shot off the board. Even with Master of Maneuvere trait still wiff hard on making that charge.
It’s a shame because I’d love to use some DS melee with my dark angels.
Your best option is Deathwing Knights dropping in with terminator master (could use JP dude, but like the idea of terminator better) with SS and powersword (upgraded to heavenfall blade) and give him Master of Maneuver trait. Reroll charges is your best bet for a DA deep striker unfortunately.
Other armies just do it better, so it's only worth it if you plan to take the Deathwing Knights which other lists don't get.
Regarding the DA Smash Captain, I can say that I have tried the same with Black Templars. Their innate reroll of failed charges, combined with Gulliman who gives +1 to Advance/Charge (like the Phobos WT mentioned), I still wasn't very happy with their success rate when coming in from deep strike. However, starting them on the board T1 and advancing them from behind LOS-blocking terrain and sneaking through to bust heavy targets has worked Ok at times (though I hate to admit that, last game I tried this, they were tarpitted by Poxwalkers and never made much headway against my opponents Plagueburst Crawlers). Obviously not as powerful as a BA smash captain, but I run 2x BT Smash Captains and 3x5 Scouts in my Deathwatch army sometimes for cheap CP, a DtW Strat, and a little bit of smashiness.
I main Chaos and picked up Dark Vengeance for the CSM stuff. My best friend does Space Wolves and I’m looking at my DVDA’s and trying to work out a list I could use to do 4K doubles with her and use the Lion & Wolf. Not looking to minimax but we’d like to have capable lists. I like DWK & the Power fist IChap and want to include them in to the collection*. This is the army plan I’ve drafted, arranged in a Battalion, Vanguard, and Spearhead, 6pts short of 2K:
General plan:
Devastators castle up around the lieutenant, Apothecary, and ancient, and blaze away; Scouts anchor their flanks.
Knights deploy in Land Raider with Master & Fist Chaplain (who does Lion & Wolf), deploying with Darkshroud; Advance T1, T2 disembark, flame, and hit things.
Other Chaplain moves up to midfield with Librarian and Tactical Squad.
Bikers rush forwards and cause trouble T1.
Deathwing teleport where they're needed.
Might juggle points to give the Master a Jump Pack and join the Terminators? Might be tricky to make it look right with his pose, but feels like he’d have better synergy with them - and it’d open up Priority Orders in Maelstrom. I feel like I’m overdoing the Chaplains - but they’re such cool models.
*they’re already in the pile of shame
How often do you jink with black Knights? I've been trying to run two squads of 5. It works better for using LOS blocking cover but I'm finding that they die quickly because only one can use speed of the Raven.
Maybe jinking and suffering the -1 will cause less casualties than not having 4++?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Regarding the smash Captain, I think we better off playing to our strengths. So our version isn't the same. I'm building a model with Combi Melta and thunder hammer. Plus the shroud relic. The -1 to be hit should make up for only having 4++ and the Combi Melta with huntsman makes up a bit for the attacks we don't get. I think he'll work best as a counter punch. Not deep striking.
Timur wrote: Thats a nice caste for a fun play, but unfortunatelly terminators are not competetive.
If landraider dies too early they will never reach close combat
Plan is to survive losing T1 by popping prepared positions for a 1+ save alongside the -1 to be hit, our shared list will probably include a Spartan or a Knight so hopefully I’ll not be the highest priority target
I took an experimental list last weekend to see if the Deathwing can cut it. It was based around a Ravenwing Attack Squadron core with a Deathwing Vanguard. Sammael and a Talonmaster led six Black Knights, a five-man Ravenwing Bike Squadron, a Darkshroud, a Scout Squad, two Tactical Squads and a Devastator Squad with Plasma Cannons. The Deathwing had Belial, a Librarian in Terminator Armour, five Deathwing Knights, a five-man Deathwing Terminator Squad and a Ravenwing Champion (that last part doesn't fit so much, but go with it).
I faced a Red Corsairs list that included two Leviathan Dreadnoughts accompanied by a Supreme Command Detachment with Ahriman and two Tzeentch Demon Princes. We played Beachhead.
The Ravenwing Black Knight took down both Leviathans before dying. Jink plus the Dark Shroud kept them alive long enough to put out the pain, benefiting from Sammael and Talonmaster plus the Ravenwing Attack Squadron strat for extra killiness. The Deathwing Knights took down both Demon Princes, assisted by a rerolled charge from deep strike and a perils-induced Righteous Repugnance. The Deathwing and Belial, though fared much more poorly. They died for little return. The Dark Angels prevailed, though, with Ahriman beating a retreat. The Ravenwing Champion with the Eye of the Unseen took down Huorn.
I keep coming back to Sammael, the Talonmaster and Ravenwing Black Knights. I'm looking at using bare-bones Landspeeders as a screen for the Black Knights. Deathwing Knights can be useful as they can kill anything if they get there. The standard Deathwing Terminators, though, are still sub-par.
I had a squad of regular Deathwing Terminators charge a Great Unclean One and knock off 12 wounds. Azrael was in bubble range and that helped.
It really depends on what you are using them for. I let my opponent charge my Hellblasters and after the big nasty got tied up with them the Termies wrecked him.
turmoil wrote: Just curious has anyone used a dark angels “smash captain” - master with jump pack thunder hammer and storm shield?
Obviously it won’t be anywhere near as good as the blood Angels version but I’m kind of thinking about working on a deep striking melee unit that can do some damage. Thinking death wing knights at the core and then a character or two to support. May also work in a deep striking assassin that has a better chance of getting in (eversor or callous).
I’ve modelled up a cheapo version with the Relic mace and a combi-Plasma. He’s pretty annoying! He gets a 4++ from Iron Halo anyway. Tend to use him with a Lieutenant with Storm Bolter and power sword. They hide behind things til needed providing buffs, then pop forward when required. Or they drop in next to my Termite full of combi-weapon-toting Veterans. That’s a fun party.
Has anyone had luck running a mechanized list that uses Darkshrouds to help the tanks stay alive? Maybe a Techmarine to repair the big ones, especially Land Raiders.
Reivax26 wrote: Has anyone had luck running a mechanized list that uses Darkshrouds to help the tanks stay alive? Maybe a Techmarine to repair the big ones, especially Land Raiders.
I do think Dark Angel Land Raiders are the best Land Raiders, just because of the Fall Back and shoot stratagem. Intractable?
Don't think techmarines are worth it unless you're filling a cheap hq slot. Might be fun on a bike?
Reivax26 wrote: Has anyone had luck running a mechanized list that uses Darkshrouds to help the tanks stay alive? Maybe a Techmarine to repair the big ones, especially Land Raiders.
I do think Dark Angel Land Raiders are the best Land Raiders, just because of the Fall Back and shoot stratagem. Intractable?
Don't think techmarines are worth it unless you're filling a cheap hq slot. Might be fun on a bike?
Yeah, Intractable and a Darkshroud were what led me to put a LR in my planned collection. I main CSM and wish I had an aura and strat like these to play with!
Make no mistake though; Land Raiders are still cabbage. Could perhaps find a niche role in a gimmick parking lot list, but honestly I think we need to stick to things like Talonmasters, Dark Talons, and stuff with plasma, playing to the unique strengths of Dark Angels. Most competitive lists will have the tools necessary to deal with an Imperial Knight, meaning those same tools will make quick work of a Land Raider. It'll never get a chance to fall back and shoot. Just because Castellans are (probably mostly) gone doesn't mean it's suddenly safe for big expensive vehicles to take the field. Now, in a less competitive environment like a casual fluffy game go crazy; Land Raiders are always cool to see. I wish they were more competitive as it would give me an incentive to finish painting my Deathwing one.
This time around I think I am going to focus more on the fun aspect of the game and not worry about tournaments really. I did all that for so long the last time I was playing the game that it made me start to hate the game. I realize now that it was the extremely toxic gaming environment that I was in at the time that caused it but that doesn't change the fact that it did.
I had to take a 7 year break from this game because of it and now that I am back playing and painting again I don't think I am going to let whether or not the list is "optimized" effect what I put in it.
I want to see some cool models do cool stuff in game. To be honest I don't even care if I win, as long as its a good fun game for both people. I'm not even going to let the local angry nerd on a power trip playing multiple Knights in a soup list get me down.
Yeah, Intractable and a Darkshroud were what led me to put a LR in my planned collection. I main CSM and wish I had an aura and strat like these to play with!
Techmarine on Bike with Storm Bolter costs less than 80p, fires 8 bolter shots all the time (at BS2+!), moves 14" and fixes up vehicles. Oh, and he has a short-ranged plasma and a flamer! And, if you don't mind the points, even a freakin' power axe!
Having one alongside the Land Speeders for Ravenwing detach is nice.
After completely ignoring him since beginning of 8th, I'm starting to be quite happy with my Captain with Jump Pack and Relic Blade (the equipment, not the relic. One of the hidden gems in our codex in my opinion).
It's not a top class heavy hitter in CC, but almost nothing in our codex is.
Instead, either with a stormbolter or a combiplasma, it's a small threat on the table but it's incredibly versatile: useful to provide reroll when you have to move your heavy weapons, may defend a bit against charges, can push away enemy deepstrikers, control objective for a turn before being shoot off the table and, more important than all, in the final rounds of a game may clear damaged units of chaff on objective (this is why a prefer a storm bolter - has the potential for 4 wound in shooting and 4 in CC).
Of course, you have to start on the table and plan you positioning in advance.
With the 20 point saved from a SS/TH configuration you can field another heavy weapon.
If you want to go full DA smash captain I believe the best configuration is an Astartes mixed regiment with SW, use the stratagem for the bonus, gives him Master of Manoeuvres (or, even better, start on the table and give it Strengh of the Lion), use the Eye of the Unseen and enjoy your 5A at 2+ with S10/11 attacking before any other character, attack again for 3CP and then attack again when he inevitably die for 2 CP).
But, really, use the Eye of Unseen whenever needed. It really messes up with elite enemy characters, it only requires to be around, and gives all your other unit priority. It's extremely more powerful that Swift Strike and similar abilities, even if it works only against a characters.
Company Commander Relic: Kurov's Aquila
Company Commander
Infantry Squad Lascannon
Infantry Squad Lascannon
Infantry Squad Lascannon
Heavy Weapons Squad Mortar
Heavy Weapons Squad Mortar
Heavy Weapons Squad Mortar
Operative Requisition Sanctioned [85pts, -1CP]
++ Total: [83 PL, 11CP, 1,499pts] ++
I expect to see lord of wars like knights (even Castellan) and (Chaos) Primarchs. So I don't want any expensive unit directly deployed on the table. Instead, I separate heavy/special weapons among a lot small cheap units. Like heavy bolt and missile launcher scout for mortal wounds.
But I keep a plasma inceptor squad and a lascannon long fangs in reserve for heavy hitting on turn 2. Lieutenant and Master go with plasma inceptor make them 2+ to hit reroll 1 for hit and wound without worry about getting hot. On average, this inceptor squad can deal 17 wounds on a 4++ Castellan Kinght. Use Cunning of the Wolf to keep lascannon long fangs in reserve. They also have build in reroll 1 to hit and stratagems like Keen Senses (no penalties to hit) The Wolf's Eye (re-roll all failed hit rolls or all failed wound rolls). With the helps from the rest army, it is possible to kill a Castellan on turn 2.
The Lion and the Wolf makes master and wolf lord deal 5 S10 thunder hammer hitting on 2+ reroll one. The Eye of the Unseen make master even dangerous for enemy characters. After new FAQ, I hope they are good at hunting things like tank commanders.
Left 85 pts for Operative Requisition Sanctioned. Summon different assassin will give more flexibility.
One thing I am considering is psychic power. It is quite hard to squeeze some points for adding psyker. It is also shame that I cannot use that 4 minus 1 to hit psychic powers form DA and SW. I hope assassin can give me some help here. Talismanic Shield (Character can now deny one power) form SW may also useful.
Any thoughts? Comments and suggestions are welcome! Thanks!
I've done a tonne of research and I have modified my list about 3 times so its very streamlined.
I was thinking with azrael and zakariah and hellblasters with two flanks of bikes with shrouds and a dark talon buzzing around this may be a viable TAC list. What do you guys think?
2000 PTS
@Detachments [ 2 ]
Ravenwing (Outrider detachment)
@HQ [ 2 ]
Ravenwing Talonmaster (188pt.) Power sword; Twin assault cannon; Twin heavy bolter;
Sammael in Sableclaw (216pt.) Raven Sword; Twin assault cannon; Twin heavy bolter;
It seems stretched real think with very few real hard hitters. 2 darkshrouds seems too much (276pts for support only, no offensive output). i would probably reduce the Ravenwing and use a refused flank instead of trying to secure both. Consolidate the bikes, drop a shroud, and put the points elsewhere.
bullyboy wrote: It seems stretched real think with very few real hard hitters. 2 darkshrouds seems too much (276pts for support only, no offensive output). i would probably reduce the Ravenwing and use a refused flank instead of trying to secure both. Consolidate the bikes, drop a shroud, and put the points elsewhere.
That makes sense. I was worried about the inability to hit heavy items like tanks/valkyries that sort of thing which is what the hellblasters and the knights were for.
I realise my scouts are just flanks and objective holders, and I really need some CC. Would Deathwing knights be a good choice?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Army of Dark Angels (1995/Unlimited pt.)
I dropped a bike squad and shroud, and then added deathwing knights and an ancient for the rerolls. The only other thing I can think of is to drop a scout squad and the regular bikers and add belial or a venerable dreadnought with twin lascannons and a missile launcher, or assault cannon and heavy flamer if I want them to help with my knights. This a good revision?
@Detachments [ 2 ]
Ravenwing (Outrider detachment)
@HQ [ 2 ]
Ravenwing Talonmaster (188pt.) Power sword; Twin assault cannon; Twin heavy bolter;
Sammael in Sableclaw (216pt.) Raven Sword; Twin assault cannon; Twin heavy bolter;
I've run similar lists (Outrider with the Speeder guys + an Azrael castle) and to be honest it was very hard to get it to work for competitive play. Just not enough bodies, lots of points tied up in Characters (~600 with Az, Sam and TM), and Bikes can die pretty easily.
Adding in the DW Knights just dilutes it further - as in 3 Black Knights won't do much unfortunately!
I think you need to re-assess what you want to focus on for a list and build around it with redundancies. So do the Az castle but with more Hellblasters + ancient + apothecary. Or go heavier on the Ravenwing with more Black Knights (6 man squads) and at least 2 Dark Talons and the speeder characters.
But definitely play some games with your lists and see what units are liking - then focus the list around those.
MaxB wrote: I've run similar lists (Outrider with the Speeder guys + an Azrael castle) and to be honest it was very hard to get it to work for competitive play. Just not enough bodies, lots of points tied up in Characters (~600 with Az, Sam and TM), and Bikes can die pretty easily.
Adding in the DW Knights just dilutes it further - as in 3 Black Knights won't do much unfortunately!
I think you need to re-assess what you want to focus on for a list and build around it with redundancies. So do the Az castle but with more Hellblasters + ancient + apothecary. Or go heavier on the Ravenwing with more Black Knights (6 man squads) and at least 2 Dark Talons and the speeder characters.
But definitely play some games with your lists and see what units are liking - then focus the list around those.
I am a huge fan of ravenwing and love the mobility of it, hence why I wanted it so heavy. I also wanted to make sure that I had anti vehicle covered with some troops that would steer away from the mass amount of vehicles I have.
I am a huge fan of ravenwing and love the mobility of it, hence why I wanted it so heavy. I also wanted to make sure that I had anti vehicle covered with some troops that would steer away from the mass amount of vehicles I have.
Ok, but I would say your list is actually pretty light on Ravenwing! Bikers and Dark Talons (your damage dealers) are fragile so you would want to think about 2-3 Dark Talons, and min. 6 man Black Knight Sqaud, probably two of these for 2000 points.
I also love Ravenwing and have a pretty fun 1250 list - Sam, Talonmaster, 3x5 Scouts, 6 Black Knights, 4 normal Bikers, Darkshroud, Dark Talon - with couple points leftover for some special weapons on the bikers or some h.bolters on the scouts for hellfire shells. Run as the vigilus formation you can one-shot a knight with this and get through infantry. Also fragile, but that's life atm - try and hide the blackknights as best you can in case you don't get first turn, while staying 38" from their target.
I am a huge fan of ravenwing and love the mobility of it, hence why I wanted it so heavy. I also wanted to make sure that I had anti vehicle covered with some troops that would steer away from the mass amount of vehicles I have.
Ok, but I would say your list is actually pretty light on Ravenwing! Bikers and Dark Talons (your damage dealers) are fragile so you would want to think about 2-3 Dark Talons, and min. 6 man Black Knight Sqaud, probably two of these for 2000 points.
I also love Ravenwing and have a pretty fun 1250 list - Sam, Talonmaster, 3x5 Scouts, 6 Black Knights, 4 normal Bikers, Darkshroud, Dark Talon - with couple points leftover for some special weapons on the bikers or some h.bolters on the scouts for hellfire shells. Run as the vigilus formation you can one-shot a knight with this and get through infantry. Also fragile, but that's life atm - try and hide the blackknights as best you can in case you don't get first turn, while staying 38" from their target.
hoo boy, thats a lot of ravenwing! I was hoping to squeeze in the azrael castle in there, but it appears to me that you're saying that isn't feasible. I won't have a lot of CP, even with a battalion and outrider detachment. I'll have to come with a new list
That has been my experience - I’m no master tactician haha. So if you already have those models definitely play it out and see what you come up with! Good luck
Alright, so modified list to be more... ravenwing and less diluted.
2 squads of 6 black knights and a flank of 6 regular bikers without plasma. 2 dark talons, 2 talon masters and a dark shroud. sammael, 3 scout squads and an interrogator chaplain in terminator armour to deep strike with one of the scout squads for rerolls (and to fill out my battalion detachment). Two squads of bike rerolls with a talonmaster and black knight squad, sammael with the regular bike squad and darkshroud for flanking and bubblewrap. scouts for objectives, and two dark talons for running around and causing misdirection and mayhem!
Automatically Appended Next Post: also to note, I don't have any models except for a dark talon and black knight squad of 3. I'm revising my list so I know what to buy for my first 2k that can TAC
Went to a 1,250 tournament on Saturday with a Ravenwing-heavy army. The theme of the tourney was a Great Crusade based on a Named Character and his retinue. No Lords of War were allowed with a couple of exceptions. The missions were designed by our TO, emphasizing different ways to win while having plenty of "secondary" points that can only be earned by your Warlord. I went with a Ravenwing Attack Squadron Battalion from Vigilus, trying to strike a balance between crunch and fluff, hampered by a last-minute realization that I could attend:
Sammael in Sableclaw
Talonmaster
Ravenwing Black Knights x 6
Ravenwing Bikers x 4
Ravenwing Dark Shroud
Tactical Squad with Lascannon
Tactical Squad with Lascannon
Scout Squad with Missile Launcher
Ravenwing Champion with the Eye of the Unseen
Game 1 - Objective Control vs Tau
This mission featured Search and Destroy deployment with an objective in each of our areas. My opponent had "The Eight" which was one of the LoW exceptions. I hadn't faced this before and didn't know what to expect. I seized. I lunged my Ravenwing forward in a tight fist. By the end of my shooting phase I had cleared out all the drones (Sammy and the Talonmaster excel at that) and the Riptide dude was down to three wounds. His own return fire took down my Ravenwing Bikes but otherwise I was feeling OK. By Turn 3 most of his stuff was dead and by Turn 4 he was tabled. I lost the Black Knights, the Dark Shroud and the Champion along the way. I think that my opponent really "got" the point of the tourney, perhaps more so than me! The Ravenwing Attack Squadron strats are pricey but they made for a devastating first two turns of shooting. Sammael collected a few VP for himself and I won with 8 points out of a total of 11.
Game 2 - Assassination vs Red Corsairs
This featured Dawn of War and an interesting Mission Win mechanic. Each of us nominated a model that the opponent had to kill. It could not be a vehicle, so I picked my Champion, He picked a Dark Apostle. Lead by Huron, his list had at least three standard squads with one having 20 models and plenfy of those reaper chain gun thingies. He also had some Havocs (I think) riding in a Forge World Termite (?). I seized (again) and faced a tough decision. My plan was just to get close enough to his Dark Apostle and swoop in with Sammael for some chop-chop killing. There were plenty of dudes in the way. I focused all of my fire on the 20 man squad and sadly two survived, burning up some Strats along the way but staying in there and denying me First Strike. He then spent 3 CP to bring them all back at full strength and wiped out my Black Knights. Turn 2 I pressed forward with a very depleted screen around Sammael while the Champion drove away to draw him off. His Termite came in, the Havocs wiped out my screen with a Shoot Twice strat and then the Termite killed Sammael. The Talonmaster avenged Sammael in my my turn by striking deep and killing the Dark Apostle, securing some Mission VPs at least. His Termite then scooted across the board, wiped out my last Tactical squad and charged my Champion, killing him. A tough but fun match where I learned plenty about the Red Corsairs. I fired everything I could at that big squad. Perhaps I should have gone for the two smaller squads turn one which might have earned more long term. I great learning match that I need to reflect on. With 3 out of 11 VPs I went for lunch to lick my wounds. And eat a Shawarma.
Game 3 - Kill Points vs Ynarri
I had not faced the new Ynarri, and here they were in all their glory! He had all three Characters, a Wraith Dread-Psyker thingey, and a bunch of squads of varied Ynnari guys and gals. By the end of Turn 1 I was feeling confident. His Wraith Dread was dead as were three other of his squads and I hadn't lost anything. Then I got cocky and charged Yvraine. I failed to kill her, and miraculously survived her counterpunch. Now I was embroiled with two of his special characters. The Eye of the Unseen kept me in the game though, along with the Attack Squadron strat of withdrawing after you attack. The Champion died, but Sammael was able to extract after killing the Incubi-looking guy. By the end of turn 3 I had killed Yvraine after I figured out target priority (don't kill other squads first...) A fun and bloody match. My opponent faced an uphill struggle with Kill Points, but he certainly knew his list and how to get the most out of it. My force was tattered, but I had achieved a decisive win with 8 VPs out of 11.
Game 4 - Table Quarters vs Astra Militarum
My opponent had Pask and two Command Leman Russes in a Supreme Command along with a Catachan Battalion with Harker, Yarrick and two Basilisks. My good luck with going first came to an end as he Seized. I was down the Scout Squad and half my Black Knights by the end of his turn. i resolved to go after Pask and get as many secondary points as I could. This paid off. We tied on Table Quarters (Sammy and the Talonmaster gunning down this three infantry squads sent to control the table quarters on my half. I won on secondary objectives.
Game 5 - Boss Fight (on a single table quarter - just a Warlord)
We finished off with a "Boss Fight" where an Ork on a bike zoomed in, weathered my overwatch and killed Sammael. I got him down to two wounds with Only in Death does Duty End. I also exploded, but alas my foe was left alive. Ah well.
I tied for 7th out of 30. Of note there were three other Dark Angels. I am not sure how they fared in the rankings. The Black Knights killed some valuable targets but in a small list they were always the enemy priority themselves. I might have been better off with two smaller squads and no standard bikers. Dark Shroud was money, as was the Sammael/Talonmaster combo. I might add two more Talonmasters to my baseline list and just focus on dakka screened by as much chaff as I can get. Not very glamorous, but it might be effective.
Thanks for reading! Don't be afraid to try different tourney formats.
I'm considering Plasma-devs with drop pod versus a standard 3 or 4 man Plasma inceptor squad. I think the Plasma dev's w/ drop pod come out on top in terms of firepower but I know there's always been alot of shade thrown on drop pod's in 8th ed. My plan is to run whichever units alongside my Ravenwing units and was curious to know what my fellow DA players thought about contrasting these 2 units. Is there any real reason to opt for the Inceptors over the Devs w/ Drop pod?
If memory serves, each plasma Inceptor fires 2d3 shots as opposed to a plasma Dev's 1d3 shots, so even a minimum size squad of Inceptors is putting out more shots than a plasma Dev squad. The Inceptors also aren't packing heavy weapons, so they don't suck a movement penalty when they come in.
@comfyjoggers, instead of the Interrogator Chaplain, consider fielding Ezekial. You can have him Advance to keep up with your Ravenwing, and he is hella useful for the points.
Grand.Master.Raziel wrote: If memory serves, each plasma Inceptor fires 2d3 shots as opposed to a plasma Dev's 1d3 shots, so even a minimum size squad of Inceptors is putting out more shots than a plasma Dev squad. The Inceptors also aren't packing heavy weapons, so they don't suck a movement penalty when they come in.
@comfyjoggers, instead of the Interrogator Chaplain, consider fielding Ezekial. You can have him Advance to keep up with your Ravenwing, and he is hella useful for the points.
Thanks! Was looking at his stats and didn't even think about it.
Modified it to have 3 dark talons because I love the models so much and they look menacing.
I've been consistently running 2 devastator squads but just lately I've been looking at the land speeder entry and wondering if they might be better. Sure they lose grim resolve, but the get 6 T6 wounds for less than the price of 5 T4 wounds, and they come with fly to get out of combat.
A large unit of 4 or 5 clubs have one or two speeders with the basic heavy bolter to act as ablative wounds for the ones you care about. Give the other 3 typhoon missile launchers and you've effectively got 6 missile launchers and 4 or 5 heavy bolters. 354 points for 4 isn't far off what I was spending already.
Alternatively, 4 all with assault Cannon and heavy bolter is like to talon masters for less points (minus the power sword and auras).
Very tempting. I'll have to have some games with them to see but I think there is some real potential now.
Grand.Master.Raziel wrote: If memory serves, each plasma Inceptor fires 2d3 shots as opposed to a plasma Dev's 1d3 shots, so even a minimum size squad of Inceptors is putting out more shots than a plasma Dev squad. The Inceptors also aren't packing heavy weapons, so they don't suck a movement penalty when they come in.
ah, totally neglected the fact that they have 2 plasma weapons. ya, that puts things in perspective.
Zustiur wrote: I've been consistently running 2 devastator squads but just lately I've been looking at the land speeder entry and wondering if they might be better. Sure they lose grim resolve, but the get 6 T6 wounds for less than the price of 5 T4 wounds, and they come with fly to get out of combat.
A large unit of 4 or 5 clubs have one or two speeders with the basic heavy bolter to act as ablative wounds for the ones you care about. Give the other 3 typhoon missile launchers and you've effectively got 6 missile launchers and 4 or 5 heavy bolters. 354 points for 4 isn't far off what I was spending already.
Alternatively, 4 all with assault Cannon and heavy bolter is like to talon masters for less points (minus the power sword and auras).
Very tempting. I'll have to have some games with them to see but I think there is some real potential now.
Talonmasters have another thing going for them though: the Character rule. This is huge and really ups their survivability over standard Speeders. Between that and the aura buffs, I'd take a Talonmaster over two HB/AC speeders any day of the week.
Grand.Master.Raziel wrote: If memory serves, each plasma Inceptor fires 2d3 shots as opposed to a plasma Dev's 1d3 shots, so even a minimum size squad of Inceptors is putting out more shots than a plasma Dev squad. The Inceptors also aren't packing heavy weapons, so they don't suck a movement penalty when they come in.
ah, totally neglected the fact that they have 2 plasma weapons. ya, that puts things in perspective.
I was going to remark that their overcharge is safer but with twice the shots it’s actually the same
My Ravenwing Outrider+Greenwing Battalion list started off with Devastators, but I switched over to a unit of 3 Typhoon speeders. They are an effective unit, particularly around the RW character auras.
Talonmasters have another thing going for them though: the Character rule. This is huge and really ups their survivability over standard Speeders. Between that and the aura buffs, I'd take a Talonmaster over two HB/AC speeders any day of the week.
I understand your reasoning but consider the optional ablative wounds of a cheap heavy bolter speeder. It's not all bad. Character sniping exists in greater and greater quantities and the talonmaster has no invulnerable save.
2 talonmasters is 376 points.
4 HB/AC and one HB is 388.
Only a 12 point difference.
I'm not saying don't take any talonmasters. They're great too. I'm thinking speeder spam here.
Sammael.
1 or 2 talonmasters
3x typhoon/HB +1 HB 4x HB/AC +1 HB.
Comes in around 1350. So there still room for other things in your list.
My Ravenwing Outrider+Greenwing Battalion list started off with Devastators, but I switched over to a unit of 3 Typhoon speeders. They are an effective unit, particularly around the RW character auras.
Grand.Master.Raziel wrote: My Ravenwing Outrider+Greenwing Battalion list started off with Devastators, but I switched over to a unit of 3 Typhoon speeders. They are an effective unit, particularly around the RW character auras.
Good to hear I'm not the only one thinking this way.
Land Speeder with HB and MM 4 Bikes. 2 with Plasmagun and one regular. Sgt with Power Sword. Attack Bike MM with them.
Darkshroud
Dark Talon
Chaplain on a Bike.
I can't wait to try them in a game. I will keep you guys updated on how effective it is.
I am beginning to wonder if Zustier might have a point. Has anyone ever ran a pure Ravenwing army?
By that I mean all bikes and Land Speeders with Sammael and his Talonmasters? The more I look at the list the more viable it gets. It is extremely fast and very shooty when you think about the squadrons of speeders being around Sam and the TM's.
I don't have the models to pull it off right now or I would try the list myself. You would need a bunch of Land Speeders to pull it off right .
I put a list together but still went with 3x5 scouts for the CP (need the CP). Was thinking of getting beakie helmets and making them Ravenwing dismounts
Sammy in Sableclaw 216
Talonmaster 188
5 Black Knights 190
5 Black Knights 190
Darkshroud 138
2 Dark Talons 400
3 Typhoons (Typhoon/HB) 285
Librarian, bike 129
Techmarine on bike (power axe, servo arm, stormbolter) 79
3x5 scouts 165
20pts left for some upgrades on the scouts. I could break the first detachment into 2, but I want to keep it together for the ravenwing Attack Squadron. Although there is something to be said about dropping 1 unit of Black Knights and getting a 3rd Dark Talon, even if it will miss out on the Attack Squadron bonuses. There would be 10pts leftover for a single HB in scouts for use with hellfire strat
My other take on this list is with deathwing support instead. replace 1 blob of black knights with deathwing knights, replace typhoons with 2 ven dreads (TL las, ML) and add a DW librarian instead of bike.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmmm, maybe I will give this a little whirl to see how it fares
Outrider:
Sammy on Sableclaw 216
Talon Master 188
7 Black Knights 266
Darkshroud, HB 138
2 Typhoon speeders (Typhoon/MM) 220
Air Wing:
3 Dark Talons 600
Battalion:
Librarian on bike 129
techmarine on bike 77
3x5 scouts, bolters 165
I'm not a huge fan of the Dark Talons not being in the Ravenwing Strike specialist detachment, but 3 are cool and give an extra CP. I do like the tech on bike since he can heal both the Talon Master and Sammy since they are vehicles. I woudl probably paint the scouts as Ravenwing dismounts.
I have found 2 Dark Talons and the speeder characters is plenty enough dakka and getting the Talons in the attack squadron is great for activating Signal the Attack.
It also has better redundancy in the Black Knights and Typhoon Speeders.
I'm a hobbyist who 1) wants to use my DA for Armies on Parade and 2) wants to try to start getting into the 40K game a bit more as I've been mostly into the Hobby side since I started in 2015. That said, I want to head back to my very first army... my Dark Angels. As mentioned above, I'd like to use them as part of Armies on Parade, but if I'm going to go that far, I'd like to use them in games as well.
Please don't get me wrong, I don't want to be "That Guy" or TFG, but I would like to try to play my Dark Angels the best I can. Also, I'm a casual player and not looking to take this list to a top table in a tournament or win every game at my local GW or FLGS. Just want to play for fun. I know that I won't win them all, and that's just fine with me. If I do go to a tournament, it'll just be for fun... throw dice, meet new people who like the game and hobby.
All that said...
I do have access to the Loyal 32 as well as a Knight Gallant, Knight Palanadin, and Knight Crusader, but I don't want to water down the Dark Angels too much. I'd like to keep it as close to monodex as it can be. I don't mind spending say another $60 on a box of Hellblasters if needed, but I don't want to really spend a lot of money if possible considering the probably close to 4000 points I have below. If the need arises, I can dig into some of my other space marine models that are set aside for other armies to put into this one (all regular SM, not Primaris)
Would any DA be willing to help me out?
To help out, here's a list of all of the DA Units I have:
Spoiler:
HQ: 1 x Azrael 1 x Belial 1 x Librarian (one that came with Dark Vengeance) 1 x Librarian on Bike 1 x Primaris Lieutenants (Dark Imperium) 1 x Primaris Lieutenants (Dark Imperium) 1 x Sammael in Sableclaw
TROOPS: 4 x 5 Intercessor Squad (Dark Imperium) 1 x 5 Scould Squad (Four Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks) 2 x 10 Tac Squad (Dark Vengenance)
ELITES: 1 x 5 Deathwing Knights 2 x 5 Deathwing Terminators (Dark Vegenance) 1 x Dreadnought 1 x Primaris Ancient 1 x Redemptor Dreadnought
FAST ATTACK: 1 x 5 Assault Squad 2 x 3 Inceptor Squad (Dark Imperium) 1 x 3 Ravenwing Bike Squad (Dark Vengeance) 2 x 3 Ravening Black Knights (2 w/ Plasma Talons and 1 with Grenade Launcher) 1 x Ravenwing Darkshroud 3 x Ravenwing Land Speeders with Typhoon Missile Launcher
HEAVY SUPPORT: 1 x 5 Devastators (Probably outfit all of them with Plasma Cannons) 2 x 5 Hellblasters (Dark Imperium)
FLYERS: 1 x Ravenwing Dark Talon
DEDICATED TRANSPORT: 1 x Drop Pod 1 x Razorback with Twin Lascannon (can be converted into a Rhino) 1 x Repulsor
--------- POSSIBLE ALLIES: IK: 1 x Imperial Knight Crusader 1 x Imperial Knight Paladin 1 x Imperial Knight Gallant
IG: Loyal 32 4 x Heavy Weapon Squads (Mortars) 2 x 10 Platoon (in additional to Loyal 32) 5 x Leman Russ Variants 1 x Chimera 1 x Shadowsword w/ Lascannon sponsons 1 x Armored Sentinel w/ Autocannon
Mate, you have a pretty varied collection there so no need to buy anything!
For casual play you could easy put together a solid pure DA list. Your list will depend on how serious your opponents play. In my local store no one really plays comp. soup lists unless we organise it beforehand for tournament practice. I'd say play some games and get a feel for where people are at then build from there. Like I personally feel bad bringing the Dark Shroud or Dark Talon for most casual games as -1 to hit isn't that fun and the movement from planes catches a lot of people off guard. But there are some people I play are cool with that and bring similarly powerful units.
A battalion with your intercessors, Azrael, Librarian and the devastators or hellblasters is effective and showcases the DA chapter master, psychic powers and strats pretty nicely. Add in a Ravenwing outrider led by Sammael, or Deathwing, or vehicles to flavour. But yeah just play what you like and notch it up if you need - the level of opponents just varies so greatly imo.
For Armies on Parade the variety from Green, Raven and Deathwing makes a great looking army - especially when using our unique DA models.
Tournament play is in a totally different league. That's where you would ally in your loyal 32 and probably the Crusader run as Krast. Or just go all your Knights + guard and leave the DA at home haha
So, I've been going back to basics and looking at things that I've often overlooked since book has been out.
One thing I haven't used, but could be effective in certain situations (especially if taking lots of ravenwing/deathwing knights) is the Hunt the Fallen strat. It is FAQd to be at start of battle round which means you can try to reclaim it with brilliant Strategist and basically gives RW/DW units the ability to reroll charges against it (so just have to position yourself within 12" of that character and declare it as a target, plus the actual unit you want to charge). I'm also looking at using the Shroud of Heroes on a Chplain dread (although now I'm starting to burn through valuable CP).
List..
Ravenwing Attack Squadron: Outrider
Sammy on sableclaw 216
Talon Master 188
5 Black Knights 190
5 Black Knights 190
Darkshroud 138
2 Dark Talons 400
Battalion
Librarian on bike, stormbolter 131
Chaplain dread, TL las, DCCW, SB 192
3x5 scouts with bolters 165
5 DW Knights, watcher 190
bullyboy wrote: So, I've been going back to basics and looking at things that I've often overlooked since book has been out.
One thing I haven't used, but could be effective in certain situations (especially if taking lots of ravenwing/deathwing knights) is the Hunt the Fallen strat. It is FAQd to be at start of battle round which means you can try to reclaim it with brilliant Strategist and basically gives RW/DW units the ability to reroll charges against it (so just have to position yourself within 12" of that character and declare it as a target, plus the actual unit you want to charge). I'm also looking at using the Shroud of Heroes on a Chplain dread (although now I'm starting to burn through valuable CP).
List..
Ravenwing Attack Squadron: Outrider
Sammy on sableclaw 216
Talon Master 188
5 Black Knights 190
5 Black Knights 190
Darkshroud 138
2 Dark Talons 400
Battalion
Librarian on bike, stormbolter 131
Chaplain dread, TL las, DCCW, SB 192
3x5 scouts with bolters 165
5 DW Knights, watcher 190
2000pts
List looks interesting, although I don't think Chappy dreads are worth their points. I'd rather have a second Talonmaster myself. Also, I think they FAQ'd the Shroud so that Vehicle characters couldn't take it. I could be mistaken, though.
Shroud is OK, but my concern is the low amount of AT in the list. I know a pair of lascannons doesn't add a significant amount, but I think I'm all set with my dakka with 2 talons, a Talonmatser and Sammael. The Chaplain dread has some survivability with it being a character so at least the lascannons should be useful over several turns.
I'm really struggling to find a good list with my DA as it seems the Ravenwing element just chews up so much points.
Yep you just get so little on the board with Dark Angels - sure it can kill stuff and I've had games where it all goes to plan, but more often than not I ran out of units by turn 4/5. Especially since our 'good' units are also expensive (speeder characters, dark talon, black knights, Azrael). Solution? I'm not sure - maybe just one type of elite section (ravenwing or hellblasters or deathwing) and fill out the rest with bodies? Or ally in some guard? But souping is a totally different discussion
In terms of anti-tank in your list I thought it was pretty decent - the Black Knights should do good (I've had 6 take down a Knight with support from speeder characters and Dark Talon and signal the attack). The librarian with aversion and mind wipe is a type of anti-tank. Even just aversion on top of the Dark Shroud works wonders. Sammy and Talonmaster can assault tanks too if needed.
In about a month I have a few games that are going on a Youtube channel. I threw together this list as I am not entirely sure what I will be playing against.
Batallion:
Master
Lt
5 man Tac Squads with Las x3
Dark Talon
Darkshroud
Spearhead:
Techmarine: Servo Harness, Axe
Whirlwind:Castellan
Whirlwind:Castellan
Land Raider Crusader
Vanguard:
Terminator Librarian: Force Axe, Aversion, Righteous Repugnance, Shroud of Heroes. Warlord with Brilliant Strategist
5 Deathwing Knights
Ven Dread with Twin Las and DCCW Ven Dread with Assault Cannon and DCCW DW Ancient with SS&TH. Eye of the Unseen
Basic idea is a Dark Angel version of a gunline list. It has the Knights and Librarian with Ancient as a close combat answer. I was trying to be as balanced as possible.
I am attending ETC tournament in August and I 've just been informed that index units are not allowed !! So I run a DA Vanguard detachment in my list consisting of a master with TH&SS , 5 man Deathwing Knights with Maces & SS and 2 Psyfleman Ven Dreads . So I just lost an autocannon there . My question is , if in the codex you can have at least 1 autocannon in order to kit em as 1 autocannon + 1 lascannon or the autocannon choice isn't even on codex at all? ... yeah what a bumer ehh ?!?!
Aeri wrote: Do what do you guys think about the champion (+ on bike/terminator armour)?
How do you use them?
I think the regular champ is a beast at 44pts. in fact, based on some recent gaming, i wonder if it would be worth it to almost do a rhino plasma rush. Throw in a bunch of other T7/8 vehicels and dreads for saturation.
3 of the following...
Rhino, 2 SBs, 1 champion, 5 Vets with combi-plasma/SS.
Then place one of these characters in each rhino...ancient with combi-plasma, Lt with combi-plas, power sword, Master, combi-plas, powersword
Sure, WotDA can only be used on one unit at a time, but at least you have redundancy.
Aeri wrote: Do what do you guys think about the champion (+ on bike/terminator armour)?
How do you use them?
I've had good mileage out of the Ravenwing Champion. Sometimes he is an escort for Sammael, heroically intervening against sneaky gitz that try to assault Sammael from the flanks/behind and then using the Eye of the Unseen relic to induce tears of rage (even with the nerf to that relic and others of its kind). He can also function as an ersatz assassin, racing out of the army to pick off targets of opportunity.
I found the Deathwing Champion effective when 8th Edition dropped, but his utility has diminished in step with his comrades.
Reivax26 wrote: I am beginning to wonder if Zustier might have a point. Has anyone ever ran a pure Ravenwing army?
By that I mean all bikes and Land Speeders with Sammael and his Talonmasters? The more I look at the list the more viable it gets. It is extremely fast and very shooty when you think about the squadrons of speeders being around Sam and the TM's.
I don't have the models to pull it off right now or I would try the list myself. You would need a bunch of Land Speeders to pull it off right .
I run a pure RW list for local 1750 pt meta. The list is:
-1x Sammael on Corvex -2x Talonmaster -3x HB Attack Bikes -3x 3-man bikes; PF, 2x meltagun -1x 6-man RBK -1x Dark Shroud -2x Typhoon LS -1x Dark Talon
Models: 25 Units: 14 CP: 6
Note our meta disallows specialist detachments due to balance issues (that not everyone gets a specialist detachments).
The list does fairly well in medium to heavy terrain boards. You need to zip around from LOS to LOS, and due to the density of firepower per unit, it's good at pouring down bullets with small footprint. The AB's are used as DS screens because well placed DS is detrimental to the list. The melta/PF bikers serve primarily as a distraction carnifex (due to 3x1d6D + dakka). The list is purely about redundancies of varying scales to throw off the opponent's decision making.
The issue with speeder heavy list comes down to the rule of three's, where you must run the risk of runoff wounds in larger units. LS's aren't nearly as tough enough to withstand focused volley fires, even with the 4++ from jink. In my experience, 3 individual speeders is the cut off point for diminishing returns on redundancy. It's almost never worth it to squadron them into groups of 3 or more to take advantage of that +6 to Movement.
This might seem a bit strange, but it seems like Dreadnought gunlines might actually be a thing now. I played in a tournament yesterday using a Dark Angels list (with the Loyal 32 for extra CP) and I got my butt kicked all over the place. Even the lists I didn't face would likely have roflstomped me. The opponents I did face were 2 different Tau lists and Eldar flyer spam. I just got flat hard countered, plus I made a few play mistakes that only made everything worse. Of the lists that were at the tournament, most of them were gunline lists with 2 different Ultramarine lists (one of which spammed Dreadnoughts of various types) and a Chaos list with a bunch of FW Hellforged dreads. Between those and the Tau lists, I'm thinking gunlines are becoming a lot more prevalent, which means we Dark Angels players need to adapt. Unfortunately, straight Dreadnought spam is probably not that good for us, as Ultramarines do it better thanks to Bobby G. The old standby Azrael Hellblaster gunline will just get consistently outranged by any proper gunline, so that's out too. I'm honestly probably going to shelve my Dark Angels until the meta shifts again, as currently there's just no niche for us. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.
ZergSmasher wrote: This might seem a bit strange, but it seems like Dreadnought gunlines might actually be a thing now. I played in a tournament yesterday using a Dark Angels list (with the Loyal 32 for extra CP) and I got my butt kicked all over the place. Even the lists I didn't face would likely have roflstomped me. The opponents I did face were 2 different Tau lists and Eldar flyer spam. I just got flat hard countered, plus I made a few play mistakes that only made everything worse. Of the lists that were at the tournament, most of them were gunline lists with 2 different Ultramarine lists (one of which spammed Dreadnoughts of various types) and a Chaos list with a bunch of FW Hellforged dreads. Between those and the Tau lists, I'm thinking gunlines are becoming a lot more prevalent, which means we Dark Angels players need to adapt. Unfortunately, straight Dreadnought spam is probably not that good for us, as Ultramarines do it better thanks to Bobby G. The old standby Azrael Hellblaster gunline will just get consistently outranged by any proper gunline, so that's out too. I'm honestly probably going to shelve my Dark Angels until the meta shifts again, as currently there's just no niche for us. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.
Yep we are in a terrible place at the moment. Ravenwing is the best style list we can do at the moment but that falls apart when you play one of the top tier net lists. Ive got hopes for 9th edition but that could be years off I hope games workshop do something to address marines as a whole as there not great full stop. I guess all we can do is live in hope
I've thought about that too, but then I remember that Ultramarines do it better thanks to Bobby G. And honestly I don't see many Bobby G lists winning big tournaments either.
Reivax26 wrote: In about a month I have a few games that are going on a Youtube channel. I threw together this list as I am not entirely sure what I will be playing against.
Batallion:
Master
Lt
5 man Tac Squads with Las x3
Dark Talon
Darkshroud
Spearhead:
Techmarine: Servo Harness, Axe
Whirlwind:Castellan
Whirlwind:Castellan
Land Raider Crusader
Vanguard:
Terminator Librarian: Force Axe, Aversion, Righteous Repugnance, Shroud of Heroes. Warlord with Brilliant Strategist
5 Deathwing Knights
Ven Dread with Twin Las and DCCW Ven Dread with Assault Cannon and DCCW DW Ancient with SS&TH. Eye of the Unseen
Basic idea is a Dark Angel version of a gunline list. It has the Knights and Librarian with Ancient as a close combat answer. I was trying to be as balanced as possible.
This list is not really all that gunliney. You hardly have any weapons with greater than a 48" range, and you have too many points wrapped up in a small amount of models. Plus, Whirlwinds are just plain terrible, unless it's the Forge World Relic Whirlwind Scorpius. That thing is pretty good.
A few tweaks you could make without a wholesale list revamp: You don't really need the Master you have in the Battalion. You're not going to be moving your Tac Squads very much, so they'll get the benefit of Grim Resolve every time you fire with them. So, you could drop him. Drop the regular Whirlwinds and invest in a Whirlwind Scorpius. With the points you saved off the Master, you can buy a couple of Scout Squads to give yourself a bigger envelope opponent's can't Deep Strike into, and/or have a couple cheap units you can task to sitting on objectives. Anyhow, the Techmarine can then be one of your Battalion HQs, and the Scorpius can be fielded as part of your Vanguard.
More broadly speaking, if I was going to make a Dark Angels gunline with exclusively OldMarine models, I'd base it around Azrael and Devastator Squads. They'd be hard to shift and hard to ignore. From there, I'd have some kind of mobile element and some objective cappers.
How are Whirlwinds terrible? I had an infuriating encounter with one last week. Lengthways game and it just tore through my Chaos Cultists. Even finished off Karanak after bolter fire took out his screen. I’d wanted to force my opponent to come to me, but they outraged me and that was that.
3 Whirlwinds setup like that can throw 6d6 str 6 shots at 72 inch range. Set them up in a corner and let them rain hell down on infantry units. With a generic Master and LT with them they are rerolling 1's to hit and wound.
The issue with Whirlwinds is that there are other units even within our own codex that perform the chaff-clearing role better. 6d6 shots averages out to 21 shots, although it could be as few as 6 (unlikely) or as many as 36 (equally unlikely). Dark Talons put out 24 (admittedly weaker) shots if they get within 12 inches, and they cost less than 3 Whirlwinds, and they also have the stasis bomb and rift cannon. And they also synergize with other units better, specifically other Ravenwing units if you take the Ravenwing Attack Squadron. That's just one example. Also, Whirlwinds are vulnerable to being bad touched by enemy units, while other things in the codex aren't. That weakness is shared with any number of our ground vehicles.
Actually the very nature of the Whirlwinds rule about not having to be able to see to hit more than makes up for its vulnerability. Hide it behind terrain or behind something like a Predator with triple Las.
In a gunline army they would probably surprise you. The main problem with them honestly is the points cost. They should be cheaper. Way cheaper in fact. It's probably the most underrated tank in the Space Marine arsenal.
Yeah, the Whirlwind I faced was hiding out of LoS behind a building full of Long Fangs, preventing me from deepstriking in the corner. If I’d have been able to get my Warp Talons into that firebase, I’d have easily won the game. As it is, they had a solid anchor behind them - that, unlike my own Cultist screens, was putting out damage every turn.
I don’t doubt that a Scorpius would be better - got my eyes on one, myself - but the basic WW does seem viable in an Adeptus Astartes gunline.
bullyboy wrote: The only thing that has made me almost consider in a whirlwind is the startegem that allows them to auto hit since I run speeder characters
Does that actually work, or does it have to be the specific unit Land Speeders? If all it needs is the LAND SPEEDER keyword, then Whirlwinds may have gone up a bit in my estimation. Still too many points though.
bullyboy wrote: The only thing that has made me almost consider in a whirlwind is the startegem that allows them to auto hit since I run speeder characters
Does that actually work, or does it have to be the specific unit Land Speeders? If all it needs is the LAND SPEEDER keyword, then Whirlwinds may have gone up a bit in my estimation. Still too many points though.
It just says Dark Angels Land Speeder, so pretty much all speeders including Talon Master, Sableclaw and Dark Shroud. You could just imagine it thematically, the Talon Master guiding the Ravenwing onto their prey and then calling in a strike from the Whirlwind...love it. 85pts for the castellan doesn't seem too bad in reality.
Dark Talon + Multi Melta Attack Bike
Or
Nephilim Jetfighter + Land Speeder with MM and Heavy Bolter
This is the last decision for my 2k list. It is an intriguing one.
Dark Talon all day every day. Attack bikes are not great though, especially with the very iffy Multimelta. Nephilim Jetfighters are like the Dark Talon, except worse in almost every way.
I have run Attack Bikes with Multimelta either in a Ravenwing Biker Squad or on their own to fill out a FA slot. They aren't great, but they can attract fire and sometimes screen my main Black Knight force against deep striking close combat foes.
I've got a 2k match against an Alpha Legion player this week. He's a bit of a jerk, so it would be awesome to beat him. I've played AdMech all of 8th, but was a brief DA player in 7th.
His list is likely to include a lot of obliterators and cultists.
Would really appreciate some tips and insights.
The list I've got so far in 2x battalions:
-------------
2x smash cpt
Talonmaster (Want to give him Heavenfall blade)
Lieutenant
I played the 2 games on the YouTube channel. First was against Necrons and second was against Tyranids.
I won the first game after he quit. 4 turns in I was up 9-2 on Victory Points. I took down a Monolith, Destroyers, Heavy Destroyers, Wraiths, 2 full squads of Warriors and a full squad of Immortals.
2nd game was against the Nids. This one started bad and ended worse. I conceded after 4 turns. He seized the Initiative and managed a first turn lock. High point was I managed to kill a Trygon Prime and a Broodlord in close combat with my Deathwing Ancient and some Deathwing Knights.
List was:
Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought with Twin Las
Sammael on Sableclaw
3 5 man tac squads with missile launchers
9 man Deathwing Terminator squad with a Plasma Cannon
5 Deathwing Knights
Deathwing Ancient with Storm Shield and Thunder. Eye of the Unseen.
Land Speeder with MM and Heavy Bolter
Darkshroud
Land Raider Crusader
Nephilim Jetfighter
On a side note that Jetfighter soaked up a ridiculous amount of fire from the Necrons over the course of 2 full rounds of shooting. The distraction plus the models he killed made him more than worth it.
The idea:
Sammy, TM's and the Shield Captians take care of screens and go into the CC, if necessary.
The Libby Bots are there for the big staff.
The rhinos drive around and cover the chars or deny overwatch.
Scouts get the on objectives outside my deployment zone and the TS should hold the objective in my zone.
From 14 CP onwards, after subtracting the (relatively) fixed Detachment and Relic payments, there will be 8 CP over. If necessary, the 3 Shield Captains also get the Victor of the Blood Games gem.
Most definitely! They are great for giving an otherwise static list some mobility. Their durability isn't great, but they have pretty solid firepower for their points. Inside 12 inches, they get 18 shots (4 from each twin bolter and 2 from each shotgun), and that isn't including giving the sarge a Storm Bolter for just 2 points more. They are also faster than regular Ravenwing bikes. Really the only reason to run Ravenwing over Scout Bikes is if you are running a Ravenwing Attack Squadron, because then you want to have the Ravenwing keyword.
When I was running the Azrael Hellblaster gunline, I usually ran a couple of minimum squads of Scout bikers, and they often put in solid work.
Dunno, with Bolter Drill the Ravenwing chaps are looking better than the Scout Bikers.
- Both cost the same (RW used to cost more)
- Scouts can fire 12 bolter shots + 6 shotguns (but only at 12"); 16 bolter + 4 shotguns if you give the Sarge a Storm Bolter (Index config)
- RWB can fire 18 bolter shots on the go, because all of them can have a boltgun - and at 24" at all times!
- RWB have Jink and can benefit more from Talonmaster's aura
- RWB can enjoy the new formation
For me, the only saving grace for Scout Bikers is their stratagem of MW after leaving combat
Vector Strike wrote: Dunno, with Bolter Drill the Ravenwing chaps are looking better than the Scout Bikers.
- Both cost the same (RW used to cost more)
- Scouts can fire 12 bolter shots + 6 shotguns (but only at 12"); 16 bolter + 4 shotguns if you give the Sarge a Storm Bolter (Index config)
- RWB can fire 18 bolter shots on the go, because all of them can have a boltgun - and at 24" at all times!
- RWB have Jink and can benefit more from Talonmaster's aura
- RWB can enjoy the new formation
For me, the only saving grace for Scout Bikers is their stratagem of MW after leaving combat
I agree with you that RWB are better than scout bikes at the moment, but RWB can't take boltguns, you can use the index to give the sergeant a Storm Bolter and give them flamers.
Working on a TAC Casual/semi-decent DA army for actually playing the game and learning as I have most of these models but never really play. I'm trying to go just codex without FW, Index & Allies for now. Wondering what people's thoughts are and what I should do to expand to 2k
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP ++
+ HQ +
Azrael
Lieutenants
Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun
+ Troops +
3x5 x Scout (Boltgun)
+ Heavy Support +
Hellblaster Squad: 9x Hellblaster, Plasma incinerators
++ Outrider Detachment +1CP ++
+ HQ +
Ravenwing Talonmaster
Twin assault cannon, Twin heavy bolter
. Talonmaster: Power sword
+ Fast Attack +
3 x 5 Ravenwing Bike Squad
. Ravenwing Biker: Chainsword, Meltagun
. Ravenwing Biker: Chainsword, Meltagun
Ravenwing Darkshroud: Heavy bolter
++ Total: [84 PL, 1,493pts] ++
You might want some combination of Dark Talons, more Hellblasters, some variety of Ancient, and possibly a second Talonmaster or Sammael in Sableclaw at 2000 points. It may mean dropping a few bikes to fit some of that in.
I am wondering if it has enough anti tank power in the list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have a tournament coming up this weekend. 1k lists and I get randomly paired up with another person for all 3 games.
My dilemma is whether or not to try to run the Ravenwing Outrider detachment or a shooty Battalion detachment. Both have their merits.
I had even toyed with trying to do both but that's hard to do at 1k. Any suggestions are welcome.
I agree with you that RWB are better than scout bikes at the moment, but RWB can't take boltguns, you can use the index to give the sergeant a Storm Bolter and give them flamers.
They can't? Damn, I'm so used to giving them combi-plasmas that I thought it was a given
I am thinking about running a Supreme Command detachment of 3 librarians that are from the generic Marine codex. I want to put one on a bike, run it behind Black Knights and have it cast Null Zone on a Knight right before I melt the bastard with str 9 Plasma.
Reivax26 wrote: I am thinking about running a Supreme Command detachment of 3 librarians that are from the generic Marine codex. I want to put one on a bike, run it behind Black Knights and have it cast Null Zone on a Knight right before I melt the bastard with str 9 Plasma.
Anyone against it?
Null Zone is a 6" aura around the Librarian. You'd have to get close to the Knight from another vector, as it would afect your Black Knights' Jinx (or, if you won't use it, there's no problem)
Reivax26 wrote: I am thinking about running a Supreme Command detachment of 3 librarians that are from the generic Marine codex. I want to put one on a bike, run it behind Black Knights and have it cast Null Zone on a Knight right before I melt the bastard with str 9 Plasma.
Anyone against it?
Null Zone is a 6" aura around the Librarian. You'd have to get close to the Knight from another vector, as it would afect your Black Knights' Jinx (or, if you won't use it, there's no problem)
I believe that Null Zone effects enemy models within 6", not all models.
I've used an allied Librarian on a Bike with Null Zone in conjunction with Ravenwing Black Knights. When it works it works great. But WC8 is a gamble. When it goes off you can make your opponent cry. When it doesn't, you are the one crying.
Also I have been toying with the idea of maybe adding a detachment from another Codex to have extra ranged support while the Ravenwing is zooming around. I naturally think Astra Militarum could fill this role nicely.
Reivax26 wrote: Interesting. That might actually be better....
Also I have been toying with the idea of maybe adding a detachment from another Codex to have extra ranged support while the Ravenwing is zooming around. I naturally think Astra Militarum could fill this role nicely.
Thoughts?
Yeah Astra militarum bring some much needed range and board control support for ravenwing and cps. Plus dark Angels need all the help we can get at the moment as we are one of the worst codexs in the game
I just played in a tournament today that was more hobby-focused rather than ultra-competitive. Since this was the case, I decided to get the Dark Angels out for it, running a somewhat more thematic list rather than something super optimized and competitive. The list rules were that we were restricted to 2 detachments with no duplication of detachments (so no double Battalion, for example). I ran the following:
Spoiler:
Battalion
Master in Gravis Armor
Primaris Lieutenant: Heavenfall Blade, Plasma Pistol
3x 5 Intercessors
Primaris Ancient
5 Plasma Inceptors
5 Hellblasters
Repulsor
Outrider
Talonmaster
3 Ravenwing Bikers
3 Ravenwing Black Knights
Darkshroud
Dark Talon
I won't go into detail in the games, but I played against a beautifully converted mixed Aeldari list (made to look like Exodites riding dinosaurs and stuff), a Deathwatch list, and a Sisters list. I won the first two games handily, but lost the one against the Sisters. It was a parking lot list, and I made a lot of mistakes. The other two lists were not very hardcore, which is probably why I won. This event was the first time I ran the Repulsor, and I have to say I was mostly disappointed with it. For how many points it cost, it should have done better. Of course, in the right list it probably would have been better, but I wasn't trying to optimize the list, but rather run stuff that was nicely painted. My Inceptors were also kind of a mixed bag. They put in some good work in the first game, killing a squadron of War Walkers before being wiped out on the next turn, but in the other two games they didn't do a whole lot. In game 3, I didn't have a Master handy for rerolling 1's, so FOUR of them blew themselves up shooting at a couple of Exorcists, which they didn't even kill since my dice decided to royally screw me over (pretty much the entire rest of the tournament my dice were fairly average, but right then they kicked me in the nuts). Maybe I'm playing them wrong, but I'm becoming less and less enthusiastic about them. Still, overall I had a blast, got to look at some beautifully painted armies and got to throw some dice with my friends and renew some acquaintances, so I definitely consider it time well spent.
ZergSmasher wrote: I just played in a tournament today that was more hobby-focused rather than ultra-competitive. Since this was the case, I decided to get the Dark Angels out for it, running a somewhat more thematic list rather than something super optimized and competitive. The list rules were that we were restricted to 2 detachments with no duplication of detachments (so no double Battalion, for example). I ran the following:
Spoiler:
Battalion
Master in Gravis Armor
Primaris Lieutenant: Heavenfall Blade, Plasma Pistol
3x 5 Intercessors
Primaris Ancient
5 Plasma Inceptors
5 Hellblasters
Repulsor
Outrider
Talonmaster
3 Ravenwing Bikers
3 Ravenwing Black Knights
Darkshroud
Dark Talon
I won't go into detail in the games, but I played against a beautifully converted mixed Aeldari list (made to look like Exodites riding dinosaurs and stuff), a Deathwatch list, and a Sisters list. I won the first two games handily, but lost the one against the Sisters. It was a parking lot list, and I made a lot of mistakes. The other two lists were not very hardcore, which is probably why I won. This event was the first time I ran the Repulsor, and I have to say I was mostly disappointed with it. For how many points it cost, it should have done better. Of course, in the right list it probably would have been better, but I wasn't trying to optimize the list, but rather run stuff that was nicely painted. My Inceptors were also kind of a mixed bag. They put in some good work in the first game, killing a squadron of War Walkers before being wiped out on the next turn, but in the other two games they didn't do a whole lot. In game 3, I didn't have a Master handy for rerolling 1's, so FOUR of them blew themselves up shooting at a couple of Exorcists, which they didn't even kill since my dice decided to royally screw me over (pretty much the entire rest of the tournament my dice were fairly average, but right then they kicked me in the nuts). Maybe I'm playing them wrong, but I'm becoming less and less enthusiastic about them. Still, overall I had a blast, got to look at some beautifully painted armies and got to throw some dice with my friends and renew some acquaintances, so I definitely consider it time well spent.
i think you have to go Phobos Lt with Target Priority warlord trait for the Inceptors. +1 to hit so never kill themselves (when no to hit modifiers) and the reroll 1s to wound. Downside is you lose Brilliant Strategist.
I'm starting to be less enthused with Brilliant Strategist. It's too swingy, and every time you roll for it you're taking up a bit of time. I'm just not sure what I want to use instead.
Grand.Master.Raziel wrote: I'm starting to be less enthused with Brilliant Strategist. It's too swingy, and every time you roll for it you're taking up a bit of time. I'm just not sure what I want to use instead.
i think it also depends on how many CPs you start with. With only 8, you are rarely going to get much use out of the trait. You are, however, getting another reroll with it though, There just aren't a lot of good traits for DA unfortunately.
Master of Maneuver is the one I take at 8cp. Then again I like taking a big squad of Deathwing Terminators, deep striking them and using Deathwing Assault Strategem so what do I know.
Any thoughts on what new new Codex Adeptus Astartes preview could mean for us Dark Angels? It was great to read in the preview that all First Founding Chapters (and they name the Dark Angels) will get full access to the datasheets in the new Space Marines codex. The Primaris Rhino equivalent (the Impulser) looks intriguing for keeping Hellblasters or Aggressors safe for a turn. The +1 Attacks in the first round of close combat could be a good boost for Deathwing Knights. On the other hand, the problems with Terminators has more to do with resiliency and at this point there appears to be no movement on that (its a preview).
GW issuing supplements for additional Chapters could be a good sign: they are expanding rather than contracting. Primarizing another Character maintains the possibility of Azrael getting that treatment in the future.
I have to admit I'm intrigued by the idea of getting Thunderfire Cannons and Centurions (Cents with a 4++ from Azzy could be okay, maybe). As for the new stuff, I'll wait until I see the rules for it before I render judgment. I do like the look of that new Primaris walker thing- makes me think of one of those Amp-suits from Avatar.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Any thoughts on what new new Codex Adeptus Astartes preview could mean for us Dark Angels? It was great to read in the preview that all First Founding Chapters (and they name the Dark Angels) will get full access to the datasheets in the new Space Marines codex. The Primaris Rhino equivalent (the Impulser) looks intriguing for keeping Hellblasters or Aggressors safe for a turn. The +1 Attacks in the first round of close combat could be a good boost for Deathwing Knights. On the other hand, the problems with Terminators has more to do with resiliency and at this point there appears to be no movement on that (its a preview).
GW issuing supplements for additional Chapters could be a good sign: they are expanding rather than contracting. Primarizing another Character maintains the possibility of Azrael getting that treatment in the future.
Thoughts?
The list of stuff we, for now, can't access as DA are (codex only):
- Captain on Bike (LOOOONG overdue for DA)
- Honour Guard
- Vanguard/Sternguard Veterans
- Ironclad Dreadnought
- Centurions
- Thunderfire Cannon
- Stormhawk
- Stormtalon
From these, I'd say Captain on Bike, Veterans, Centurions and Thunderfire Cannons have my greater interest. Stormtalons could be a contender for the spot Dark Talon now occupy and the Ironclad Dreadnought can use Bolter Drill. Stormhawk and Honour Guard... meh
Vanguard Veterans is something I could get behind. My 2nd Ed tourney list had an Assault Squad with power weapons that has been illegal for Dark Angels ever since 3rd.
We really don't need Stormhawks or Stormtalons. Dark Talons are better in every way than those.
Now me, I'm hoping for some points adjustments on a lot of stuff. Grav weapons need to become much cheaper to compete with plasma. Especially the cannons. Also, Grav Cannons need their wound reroll back (make that Grav-amp mean something again). And really, Tactical/Assault/Devastator Marines need to only cost 11 ppm base. I'm also hoping for price drops on all of the Shadowspear units. Infiltrators should be 19 ppm or less in order to compete with Intercessors, and Suppressors should probably be a bit cheaper too, or able to move without penalty on their heavy weapon. Likewise all of the Phobos characters should be cheaper in order to be worth taking.
Of course, all of this is wishlisting and none of it is likely to happen, but a guy can dream, right?
Upon reflection, I'm wondering if the Space Marines Codex 2.0 will give us access to all the Primaris datasheets inside plus new universal Space Marine abilities but not necessarily all the "old-marine" units? Getting Grim Resolve on all units, though, would be nice.
I really hope the injustice of the codex boys keeping all of their new toys/rules wakes the Lion from his slumber because without him DA are fighting with GK for worst army in the edition...
bananathug wrote: I really hope the injustice of the codex boys keeping all of their new toys/rules wakes the Lion from his slumber because without him DA are fighting with GK for worst army in the edition...
I'm really not sure its all that bad. While we are not getting combat doctrines, we ARE getting access to shock assault (which frankly will make DW Knights even more ridiculous than they already are and assault marines MAYBE playable GASP!!! even standard DW termies will get to deepstrike, shoot, and have possible charge with extra attacks) and the new units (we won`t even have to buy the codex for the datasheets!)
Personally, I'm really happy with what they have done because going non-codex compliant is now really a hard choice, as opposed to the days of "see these XXXX chapter marines? they are actually deathwatch" Ps, Ive seen some funny reactions from deathwatch players about this despite the fact thay have been the best marine dex for quite some time.
On the actual units, anyone else think that Las-fusil eliminators will be great with our chapter tactic?
Ive been a solidly old school DA player since second ed, but this has for the first time got me considering adding some primaris guys to my army ( I dont even have any hellblasters yet, still running around with plasdevs.)
bananathug wrote: I really hope the injustice of the codex boys keeping all of their new toys/rules wakes the Lion from his slumber because without him DA are fighting with GK for worst army in the edition...
I'm really not sure its all that bad. While we are not getting combat doctrines, we ARE getting access to shock assault (which frankly will make DW Knights even more ridiculous than they already are and assault marines MAYBE playable GASP!!! even standard DW termies will get to deepstrike, shoot, and have possible charge with extra attacks) and the new units (we won`t even have to buy the codex for the datasheets!)
Personally, I'm really happy with what they have done because going non-codex compliant is now really a hard choice, as opposed to the days of "see these XXXX chapter marines? they are actually deathwatch" Ps, Ive seen some funny reactions from deathwatch players about this despite the fact thay have been the best marine dex for quite some time.
On the actual units, anyone else think that Las-fusil eliminators will be great with our chapter tactic?
Ive been a solidly old school DA player since second ed, but this has for the first time got me considering adding some primaris guys to my army ( I dont even have any hellblasters yet, still running around with plasdevs.)
The problem is, we are still stuck paying Codex: Space Marine points for non-codex rules. Looking at the new rules, I doubt that there will be very many point changes in the book, as now all bolters have ap -1 starting on turn 2 if you want it. There is some good stuff coming for DA, but I don't think it's enough to help get us out of the bottom tier. I don't see how we will be able to stack up against codex Marines once this drops.
Yeah I see what you are saying, maybe I'm just a born optimist (not really Dark angel-y that though)
As i like the idea of adding a small number of primaris, Im looking at maybe a spearhead detachment of azrael, 2 units of eliminators and a 5 man hellblaster squad with one of those new fandangled flying transports. Dunno if it will be any good, but i like the idea of Azrael segregating the new guys into units that'll be far from any suspiciously black armoured chaos marines or his own bodyguard where he can keep an eye on them. No idea what thatll be in points mind.
It could be that we will be second-class for a while until they redo the whole DA Codex. At least we get some new toys.
I am intrigued by the Impulser hover-transport. I haven't seen the whole datasheet, but it looks like it will have the Assault Vehicle rule allowing the squad inside to disembark after the vehicle moves. The squad that disembarks cannot assault that turn, but this could be handy with Hellblasters and Aggressors. Both tend to get shot off the board in turn 1 these days unless in an Azrael bubble. Now, they gain some survivability as well as getting upfield and shooting in the same turn. Hellblasters could possibly get inside Rapid Fire range while the Aggressors could at least get into range (maybe there's a point to the Flamestorm Aggressors now?). We'll see what the transport capacity is - we'll probably want a Primaris Master in with them. Edit - just found a preview - looks like Transport Capacity 6 so not so great...We'll also have to see what the points cost is. At least it has a light weapons loadout so hopefully its not too expensive...
Lasfusils look good with Grim Resolve. Not sure about the points vs Lascannons etc but they look interesting.
Has anyone ever tried company vets with plasma and Azrael in a drop pod? Land, throw a bunch of Plasma. Then if they get charged the Vets turn into extra wounds for Azrael because on a 2+ they jump in front of him.
princeyg wrote: Yeah I see what you are saying, maybe I'm just a born optimist (not really Dark angel-y that though)
As i like the idea of adding a small number of primaris, Im looking at maybe a spearhead detachment of azrael, 2 units of eliminators and a 5 man hellblaster squad with one of those new fandangled flying transports. Dunno if it will be any good, but i like the idea of Azrael segregating the new guys into units that'll be far from any suspiciously black armoured chaos marines or his own bodyguard where he can keep an eye on them. No idea what thatll be in points mind.
I'm trying to be optimistic if only for my own health haha. I really do think the new transport will be good for Hellblasters, as well as for Aggressors, and I'm very excited for Eliminators.. but I am being cautious because I don't want to set my expectations too high.
I like your idea, but the only issue is that under the current rules Azrael cannot ride the Primaris transport... he is too short for that ride.
princeyg wrote: Yeah I see what you are saying, maybe I'm just a born optimist (not really Dark angel-y that though)
As i like the idea of adding a small number of primaris, Im looking at maybe a spearhead detachment of azrael, 2 units of eliminators and a 5 man hellblaster squad with one of those new fandangled flying transports. Dunno if it will be any good, but i like the idea of Azrael segregating the new guys into units that'll be far from any suspiciously black armoured chaos marines or his own bodyguard where he can keep an eye on them. No idea what thatll be in points mind.
I'm trying to be optimistic if only for my own health haha. I really do think the new transport will be good for Hellblasters, as well as for Aggressors, and I'm very excited for Eliminators.. but I am being cautious because I don't want to set my expectations too high.
I like your idea, but the only issue is that under the current rules Azrael cannot ride the Primaris transport... he is too short for that ride.
Oh "£$% forgot bout the silly transport restrictions...........werrlll maybe in a few months or so he`ll magically get bigger like some of the others....
Maybe we'll get a Primaris Azrael just like how Smurfs got Calgar and Tiggy and White Scars got Korsarro Khan. Not sure how they'll justify that in the fluff, but I'm sure they'll think of something.
As for the new units, I'm wondering if 3 of the new Dread-walker-thingys infiltrating up could be a nasty turn 1 surprise. Doesn't really play to Dark Angels' strengths per se, but could take pressure off of Black Knights/Hellblasters that are trying to get in range.
Here's a complete review of the new SM codex. It seems our Reivers will do quite the work!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Things that might affect us (taken from the video):
- Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment isn't affected by Chapter Tactics
- Grav weapons got big discounts in price (Grav Cannons by 8p)
- Tactical Marines now are 12p base
- Drop Pods can come down turn 1 (Centurions can't go in)
- Librarians went down 8p (Primaris Libs also went down)
- Suppressors didn't get new guns and only 3 guys/squad
- Eliminators are still only 3 per squad; a unit with las-fusils will cost 99p (las-fusil is 15p)
- Chaplains now have Litanies; they know Linaty of Hate (their old re-roll melee hits rule) and 1 from a list. They have to roll a die to make it work; on a 3+, it goes off. Can't try to recite the same litany another Chaplain has recited. They have to do it at the start of the battle ROUND.
- Intercessor Sergeant can take a thunder hammer
- Infiltrators don't need 10 guys to get a Helix Adept or the new Comms guy
- Incursors are Troops and are 19p/model (haywire mine is 10p)
- Chapter Ancient isn't on the base codex anymore (moved to the Ultra supplement)
- Combat Shield is only 1p
- New model: Ancient in Terminator Armour
- Vanguard Veterans -1p
- Sternguard Veterans' SIA is now free
- (Ironclad) Dreadnought -10p, DCCW -10p
- Invictor Warsuit: 90p base, 120-130p filled
- Reivers: -2p. Reivers' Terror Troops rule now stacks up to 3 Reivers within 3" of an enemy unit
- Aggressors: +1A
- Assault Marines -1p
- Land Speeders are 45p base
- Armorium Cherub isn't interactive anymore
- Land Raider godwyn went down 20p
- Rhino down 5p
- Land Speeder Storm is cheaper
- Drop Pods can come turn 1
- Repulsor +30p
- Impulsor: 75p base, 18p shield 4++
Good news: In a vacuum we are now stronger than we were before the SM codex dropped, We get Shock Assault, cheaper Grav, drop pods turn 1, etc, etc.
Bad news: without combat doctrines, we are totally outclassed by vanilla marines.
Other news: we have no clue when we will be fully updated and what the heck is with the September WD?
You probably won't get combat doctrines, as they are for Codex Chapters, but you'll probably get something else cool to reflect the tri wing nature of the Chapter.
Alternatively, if you use a lot of units that overlap, both halves of the Dark Angels 'chapter tactic' are pretty much in the Codex, and you could always play a green successor to UM or WS.
Crazyterran wrote: You probably won't get combat doctrines, as they are for Codex Chapters, but you'll probably get something else cool to reflect the tri wing nature of the Chapter.
Alternatively, if you use a lot of units that overlap, both halves of the Dark Angels 'chapter tactic' are pretty much in the Codex, and you could always play a green successor to UM or WS.
Which tactics are those? I play a DA successor anyway and most of my lists are mostly primaris so no huge loss apart from my Azzy and DarkShroud.
There's a Successor Tactic that lets you reroll ones for bolt weapons (so a slight change, but I don't think you have to stand still) and one that limits it to one runner from morale.
Doctrines appear to be for all Astartes. Whether DA will get a super-doctrine (ala WS super punches or UM "I didnt move officer, honest") is another question.
Doctrines appear to be for all Astartes. Whether DA will get a super-doctrine (ala WS super punches or UM "I didnt move officer, honest") is another question.
GW confirmed on Facebook that only codex compliant chapters get doctrines. I'm not at home or I'd post the screencap I grabbed, I'll try to remember to attach it when I get home.
Reivax26 wrote: I really hope that the September White Dwarf helps us because if it doesn't I think we might be dead in the water.
On the bright side I guess I can focus more on terrain building while I wait on our army to matter again.
I agree. My first army was Dark Angels. I'd love to expand on them if they were competitive at all but I'm not a good enough player to pull off wins with a not so great army. I have a bunch of unpainted space marine stuff and it just might be time to start painting them as a new chapter.
If the September White Dwarf does bring in some cool stuff maybe I'll stick with DA but I kind of feel like we'd need DA codex v2 before there is any hope.
I'm pretty new to the hobby but it seems to me like all the non-codex chapters have been kind of left out.
Reivax26 wrote: I really hope that the September White Dwarf helps us because if it doesn't I think we might be dead in the water.
On the bright side I guess I can focus more on terrain building while I wait on our army to matter again.
I agree. My first army was Dark Angels. I'd love to expand on them if they were competitive at all but I'm not a good enough player to pull off wins with a not so great army. I have a bunch of unpainted space marine stuff and it just might be time to start painting them as a new chapter.
If the September White Dwarf does bring in some cool stuff maybe I'll stick with DA but I kind of feel like we'd need DA codex v2 before there is any hope.
I'm pretty new to the hobby but it seems to me like all the non-codex chapters have been kind of left out.
I'm in very much the same boat. Fortunately I have other armies that I can run while I wait for DA to stop languishing at the bottom. I, too, lack the skill to win 40k on hard mode (hell, I struggle to get wins even when I use my Tau, one of the better armies in the game currently). I'm definitely not going to completely give up on DA though, as I love the fluff and the look of the models. I'll probably pick up three of the new Invictor Warsuits for my army, although possibly not all at once as I don't know if I can afford that right now.
After reading up on the new Chaplain Litanies I am beginning to think that they could be the key to making Black Knights or a big Land Speeder squadron into a terrifying situation.
It doesn't say that a squad can't be affected by more than one Litany at a time. So the +1 to hit and the +1 to wound powers could be on the same squad at the same time.
Reivax26 wrote: I really hope that the September White Dwarf helps us because if it doesn't I think we might be dead in the water.
On the bright side I guess I can focus more on terrain building while I wait on our army to matter again.
I agree. My first army was Dark Angels. I'd love to expand on them if they were competitive at all but I'm not a good enough player to pull off wins with a not so great army. I have a bunch of unpainted space marine stuff and it just might be time to start painting them as a new chapter.
If the September White Dwarf does bring in some cool stuff maybe I'll stick with DA but I kind of feel like we'd need DA codex v2 before there is any hope.
I'm pretty new to the hobby but it seems to me like all the non-codex chapters have been kind of left out.
I'm in very much the same boat. Fortunately I have other armies that I can run while I wait for DA to stop languishing at the bottom. I, too, lack the skill to win 40k on hard mode (hell, I struggle to get wins even when I use my Tau, one of the better armies in the game currently). I'm definitely not going to completely give up on DA though, as I love the fluff and the look of the models. I'll probably pick up three of the new Invictor Warsuits for my army, although possibly not all at once as I don't know if I can afford that right now.
Lol, exactly same situation here. Also, I'm doing the plunge to Legion, so my future 40k days will be rarer and rarer.
Went to a torney last weekend took my guard I don't see how dark Angels at this point compete with newer and better book
I hope some of the new primaris units we are getting might help but I just can't see it. Is a shame but reading some of the other comments it seem I'm not alone me thinking we are totally underpowered and in need of a new Dex fast
What we got:
* All the new Primaris units
* Shock Assault - Bonus Attack in first round of melee
* Extra Wound on Gravis units and extra Attack for Aggressors (very cool for Dark Angels)
* Upgrade to some Primaris weapons
What we didn't get:
* Chapter tactics on vehicles
* Combat Doctrines or anything similar
* Litanies for chaplains
* Points changes (both up and down)
I've a tournament the first weekend in December. Can I wait to see if September brings a new Dark Angels codex?
What we got:
* All the new Primaris units
* Shock Assault - Bonus Attack in first round of melee
* Extra Wound on Gravis units and extra Attack for Aggressors (very cool for Dark Angels)
* Upgrade to some Primaris weapons
What we didn't get:
* Chapter tactics on vehicles
* Combat Doctrines or anything similar
* Litanies for chaplains
* Points changes (both up and down)
I've a tournament the first weekend in December. Can I wait to see if September brings a new Dark Angels codex?
Would not get your hopes up for a new Dex this year that white dwarf thing is most likely a start collecting set
Thing to bear in mind about Combat Doctrines is they only apply if the whole army has them. Ultramarines+ effectively have to choose between them and loyal 32, giving it an opportunity cost of 4-5CP. I mean, army-wide +1 AP on all your heavy weapons then on all your bolters then on all your big sticks is something many players would willingly throw 5CP at, but it’s still a factor. There’ll be some lists for which it’s not all a free power creep.
I main Chaos, and I’m not sure I’d even bother with my Dark Apostles if their Litanies equivalents didn’t have several ways to boost to a 2+. Abilities that require a 3+ to activate aren’t something I like to build an army around.
Reivax26 wrote: Anyone ever used big squads of Land Speeders buffed by the character speeders and a Darkshroud?
I've seen it used and played against it. It generally does well against all-flyer lists, where you can manuver in tight corners and force the flyers to rely on the weakend shooting, but anything with infantry - even normally ranged infantry will move up to close quarters and take advantage of the list's difficulty in close range and melee combat. Worse, a single smash captain can get in the middle and ruin the whole thing.
What does work is about 4 speeders (including the shroud) as a center of an infantry list. The speeders can safely snipe out the critical stuff from behind an infantry screen while making certain they can get to the other side of the board if the screen is about to be overwhelmed. It also makes your opponent second guess thier deployment since the speeders can tactically cover a huge area turn one and its hard to deploy things like Armagiers where the speeders can't get to them in a pinch.
Reivax26 wrote: Would a large squad of bikes accomplish the same thing?
Bikes are weird. They are basically two wound marines that can move fast. They are ok at doing the whole shot and fade thing, but 8th editions rules don't really reward you for doing that. I've used them a lot as a sacrificial speedbump, driving them right into the middle so my opponent can't pull off those dangerous turn 1/turn 2 charges. They lack the range for true long range dueling and aren't survivable in melee for their point cost. I use 6, but I've taken off all the melee weapons for chainswords to keep the point cost down as they are jst there to die as far up the field as possible
DA bikes are way different to regular Astartes bikes due to access to assault 2 plasma and speed of the Raven. A squad of RW bikers with two Flamers and a combi-Flamer can move 20” on turn one, pop SotR, hose down a unit with 3D6 auto hits + 12 x 3+ hits + 2 x 4+ hits, and then charge something to mess up their shooting phase in their turn. (Black Legion and Red Corsairs bikers are considered strong CSM units, and this is like a combination of both their strengths.)
Black Knights can also be advancing forwards and blazing with double plasma. Darkshroud and an Ancient can make them an uninviting and risky target, whilst providing their auras to midfield units. If they get charged, Intractable allows them to just drive off and gun down a support character with said plasma.
I'm thinking Inceptors should perhaps be our go-to option for plasma now that they have 3 wounds. D2 weapons were always their bane, and continue to be the bane of Black Knights (Riptides absolutely gak on them), but now they are harder for the enemy to just delete. Hopefully we get the points drop that vanilla Marines got, and then we're gravy.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm thinking Inceptors should perhaps be our go-to option for plasma now that they have 3 wounds. D2 weapons were always their bane, and continue to be the bane of Black Knights (Riptides absolutely gak on them), but now they are harder for the enemy to just delete. Hopefully we get the points drop that vanilla Marines got, and then we're gravy.
they've been my go-to for plasma. Made their points back every game. Now they're even better.
Hellblasters in Wave Serpents are probably also good, but part of me feels it's a trap.
With bolter discipline, I do actually feel that DW terminators are not a bad complement to the plasma inceptors. Yes, terminators. With the DW assault strat, they can drop down, clear chaff, allow the Inceptors to actually hit the targte they want. With 24" full effectiveness range they don't even have to be up close and personal. I doubt an opponent is going to ignore the Inceptors to go after the terminators. Heck, throw in some DWK too as another threat and it's actually not a bad triple play.
Hellblasters in Wave Serpents are probably also good, but part of me feels it's a trap.
Now hold on a minute if we could get wave serpents that would be hilarious. Nerd Rage would cause the internet to explode.
So I'm coming back after missing 7th. Sounds like that was a good idea I have a full company of 3rd Company tacticals about 20 terminators (Somewhere along the line a case of 45 painted deathwing disappeared.) Bikes and every vehicle. Is there a decent way of running these?.
Much as I respect Nick Nanavati as a great 40k player, I hate how he compared the Impulsor to a Wave Serpent. The Serpent is still far, far superior to any Imperial transport, mainly due to its damage reduction from the Serpent Shield. I do, however, think the Impulsor is an awesome way to deliver Hellblasters.
As for the DW Assault before Inceptors drop, are both actions "at the end of your Movement phase"? If so, then that's an interesting option and I'll probably give it a go at some point.
Meanwhile, continuing the Impulsor discussion, I've been having this idea in my head of running 3 Impulsors with Hellblasters in each, 3 Invictor Warsuits with the flamers, and a couple of Drop Pods with Plasma Veterans and Azrael. The Impulsors move up, unload the Hellblasters with their special rule, then the Pods come in. Azzy moves next to all the Hellblasters to give them rerolls, then you kill stuff. Hopefully you can get all the veterans under his aura buffs too. The Invictors are mainly there for target saturation and to add some nasty melee punch to the deathball.
There’s several DW units available. Tartaros Terminator squads get +1M for free, which is nice on a deep insertion unit. They can give their gunners a Reaper Autocannon and Grenade Harness, which costs 30pts less than a Cyclone and Storm Bolter and will probably kill more of a screening unit. And the sergeant has the option of a Plasma Blaster, which will clear MEQ screens quicker and can even supercharge if you absolutely need the damage to finish something off.
They lack a Watcher in the Dark, which is a concern. When you’re buying a load of Terminators to drop into in enemy territory, you might well want to veto a nasty psychic power.
I’ve got a couple of unbuilt Tartaros squads. This might well be a calling for one of them.
lindsay40k wrote: There’s several DW units available. Tartaros Terminator squads get +1M for free, which is nice on a deep insertion unit. They can give their gunners a Reaper Autocannon and Grenade Harness, which costs 30pts less than a Cyclone and Storm Bolter and will probably kill more of a screening unit. And the sergeant has the option of a Plasma Blaster, which will clear MEQ screens quicker and can even supercharge if you absolutely need the damage to finish something off.
They lack a Watcher in the Dark, which is a concern. When you’re buying a load of Terminators to drop into in enemy territory, you might well want to veto a nasty psychic power.
I’ve got a couple of unbuilt Tartaros squads. This might well be a calling for one of them.
But Reaper Autocannon is a Heavy weapon, so the wielder sould fire it at -1
I run my Terminators with double Assault Cannons and Belial. That way it's 12 shots hitting on a 4 with a reroll in addition to the 32 Storm Bolter shots hitting on 3s with reroll
lindsay40k wrote: There’s several DW units available. Tartaros Terminator squads get +1M for free, which is nice on a deep insertion unit. They can give their gunners a Reaper Autocannon and Grenade Harness, which costs 30pts less than a Cyclone and Storm Bolter and will probably kill more of a screening unit. And the sergeant has the option of a Plasma Blaster, which will clear MEQ screens quicker and can even supercharge if you absolutely need the damage to finish something off.
They lack a Watcher in the Dark, which is a concern. When you’re buying a load of Terminators to drop into in enemy territory, you might well want to veto a nasty psychic power.
I’ve got a couple of unbuilt Tartaros squads. This might well be a calling for one of them.
But Reaper Autocannon is a Heavy weapon, so the wielder sould fire it at -1
Yes, it is. However, it’s S7 and AP-1. As a Chaos player, I’m the first to bemoan it’s rather lackadaisical damage, however when you’re comparing that +D6 S4 AP-1 to a stormbolter + 2D3 AP-, the aggregate damage is probably equal or better - and costs 30pts less.
Cyclone pays for being able to fire two Krak missiles. This isn’t helpful on a horde clearance niche.
The AC pays 12 more points for 6 shots at S6 AP-1 but can’t take the grenade harness. Tartaros Heavy Guy will generally get a few more hits in, though might get just as many wounds due to some of them being S4. So, the decision there is whether you want the deep striking horde clearer to have M6 or cost more and have a Watcher.
Which one of our characters is going to get the Primaris version I wonder. My bet is on Asmodai. Interrogator Chaplains are what we are known for so it would make sense to give it to him.
axisofentropy wrote: Asmodai survives the Rubicon Primaris by sheer hatred. Yeah I can see that.
BTW played a practice game with two Impulsors last night. They are the real deal.
You run Hellblasters inside them? I feel like they could give the Azrael deathball the mobility it needs, coupled with a drop pod for Azzy himself (if he gets the Primaris treatment, he might not even need that anymore).
Impulsor passengers are secondary. Important for Hammer and Anvil against shooting armies, sure. But the value is charging Impulsors into stuff to prevent them from shooting and/or charging other, flimsier units. Just like Wave Serpents but arguably better.
axisofentropy wrote: Asmodai survives the Rubicon Primaris by sheer hatred. Yeah I can see that.
BTW played a practice game with two Impulsors last night. They are the real deal.
You run Hellblasters inside them? I feel like they could give the Azrael deathball the mobility it needs, coupled with a drop pod for Azzy himself (if he gets the Primaris treatment, he might not even need that anymore).
I've been looking at running impulsors with a bunch of hellblasters and azzie in a drop pod plus 3 of the war suits to take pressure of the hellblasters somewhat
Reivax26 wrote: You think that they are better than Black Knights?
There much better than black Knights 3 wounds each can drop in when you need them so they won't get shot of the board turn 1 more shots (if you roll well)
The inceptors are also infantry with Fly so they don't get stuck behind terrain and models. While the 20" max move of the bikes is nice, it's rare you get to use all 20" since you have to go over/around terrain and around other units.
Reivax26 wrote: You think that they are better than Black Knights?
Ever one-rounded a Forgeworld Tantalus with Black Knights? Becuase I've done it with a Plasma Inceptors. Taking 400 points off the table during a deep strike is a pretty high bar to pass.
Black Knights look cooler, but bikers aren't great this edition - with their speed mititgated by all the deep striking units and their weapons often driving up the per model cost to silly levels given the actual damage output.
Black Knight (not a big fan, personally) have a 20" move with aa 4++ whilst hitting on 4+ with plasma and being able to charge for 1 CP (and, with Vigilus detachment and more CP, retreat before retaliation and shoot/charge again next turn).
It's a different unit, but if you need only a plasma carrier interceptors are a better choices. I'm not a fan of deep striker heavy hitter however: there are too much intercept equivalent to mess your plan (and messing Interceptors with intercept is a delightful irony).
Cybtroll wrote: Black Knight (not a big fan, personally) have a 20" move with aa 4++ whilst hitting on 4+ with plasma and being able to charge for 1 CP (and, with Vigilus detachment and more CP, retreat before retaliation and shoot/charge again next turn).
It's a different unit, but if you need only a plasma carrier interceptors are a better choices. I'm not a fan of deep striker heavy hitter however: there are too much intercept equivalent to mess your plan (and messing Interceptors with intercept is a delightful irony).
BKs will be hitting on 3s with SotR strat, and will get full rerolls because Sammy, rather than reroll 1s for Inceptors (due to drop captain). We can still use the Phobos Lt for +1 to hit on Inceptors but it will get changed at some point like regular marines, just a case of when.
I have 6 Inceptors to build for my DAs and will look forward to trying them out with a Deathwing drop too. However, Black Knights also got a slight buff with Shock Assault which is almost the same as a free Ravenwing Ancient (nice savings of 112pts).
Black Knights will nearly always be your opponent's first target. Can't shoot Inceptors if they're not on the board.
That said, against armies without a lot of long range shooting, it's best to start them on the board and screen with literally everything else in your army. If your Inceptors and a Captain are your last units alive, you can still win. They're that good.
Maybe... But deep strike still means losing a turn, subjecting yourself to the opponent positioning (and with half of your range already lost in deep strike you will have to fight nail and there to create an opening towards juicy target), plus risking some intercept stratagems...
(BK have a threat range of 38" and can stay 1" of a screen hitting on 4 without any stratagem or support, but with a riskier overload. And they still have better stratagems and synergies).
Inceptors have the same exact range, more point for model (the recent extra wound probably keep them more in line with what they should be) random shots with the same profile, almost half the movement (albeit with Fly) and no invulnerable save (unless Azrael maybe?).
There are marginal situation (Planet Bowling Ball, Cities of Death, specific missions) and armies (all Space Marine with the new Doctrines) where I can see the usefulness of Inceptorsand their Deep Strike.
But since Dark Angel have the Black Knight, I think it's more of a rhetoric question which is better.
And, by the way, with the recent changes to Marine I suppose a squad of Plasma Gun Veteran in a Drop Pod is probably better for a plasma strike with Damage 3 (higher range, lesser price, more shot, pod protect against intercept and they now arrive on Turn 1).
Yeah, I’m going 39K with my DA, and BKs look like an absolute trap. If they want to benefit from Jink, supercharging plasma is suicide. They die as quickly as regular RW bikers - whose two Flamers match really well with Jink and combi-bolters + RW strat.
Plasma cannon devs are where I’m going to ultra-charge. Plasma vets in a pod are definitely interesting, though their susceptibility to auspex scans and the like means I wouldn’t depend on them as the only plasma unit.
lindsay40k wrote: Yeah, I’m going 39K with my DA, and BKs look like an absolute trap. If they want to benefit from Jink, supercharging plasma is suicide. They die as quickly as regular RW bikers - whose two Flamers match really well with Jink and combi-bolters + RW strat.
Plasma cannon devs are where I’m going to ultra-charge. Plasma vets in a pod are definitely interesting, though their susceptibility to auspex scans and the like means I wouldn’t depend on them as the only plasma unit.
Speed of the Raven and no more problems with taking an additional penalty for overcharging after advancing.
It's probably not optimal, but had anyone determined how many BKs can be protected by Azrael's bubble? At least during deployment that seems like a good idea. With not needing to get into rapid fire range, maybe pairing them with Sammael is a red herring.
Zustiur wrote: It's probably not optimal, but had anyone determined how many BKs can be protected by Azrael's bubble? At least during deployment that seems like a good idea. With not needing to get into rapid fire range, maybe pairing them with Sammael is a red herring.
I expect you could get a whole squad of 10 into his bubble. All each model has to do is touch the 6" range, so you could probably form a circle of them surrounding Azzy if necessary. That's only really good for protecting them on the first turn though, as if you keep them next to Azzy you might as well take Hellblasters since you're throwing away their maneuverability, and Hellblasters are cheaper and have better guns. Sammael is still the way to go with BKs if you want the rerolls (and trust me, you do!).
On the subject of Inceptors, how much did their cost drop in the new Codex: Space Marines? I'm hoping that GW remembers that the non-Codex chapters should get the same updates for the same units and gets around to amending our points costs for everything, so I'm curious as to what will change on that front.
lindsay40k wrote: Yeah, I’m going 39K with my DA, and BKs look like an absolute trap. If they want to benefit from Jink, supercharging plasma is suicide. They die as quickly as regular RW bikers - whose two Flamers match really well with Jink and combi-bolters + RW strat.
Plasma cannon devs are where I’m going to ultra-charge. Plasma vets in a pod are definitely interesting, though their susceptibility to auspex scans and the like means I wouldn’t depend on them as the only plasma unit.
Speed of the Raven and no more problems with taking an additional penalty for overcharging after advancing.
Cybtroll wrote: It's a different unit, but if you need only a plasma carrier interceptors are a better choices. I'm not a fan of deep striker heavy hitter however: there are too much intercept equivalent to mess your plan (and messing Interceptors with intercept is a delightful irony).
Most, if not all, of those intercept-like abilities are limited to 12". Inceptors can fire at 18".
On the subject of Inceptors, how much did their cost drop in the new Codex: Space Marines? I'm hoping that GW remembers that the non-Codex chapters should get the same updates for the same units and gets around to amending our points costs for everything, so I'm curious as to what will change on that front.
Only the bolter ones became cheaper. They're a bit more than 120p now.
With any unit that Deep Strike you always have to subtract 9" to have a realistic idea of the effective threat range.
So, it's irrelevant if you can intercept at 12" and Interceptors shoot 18"... unless you are able to Deep Strike near to your primary target (which is more an exception than the rule).
Deep Strike is a defensive ability, not an offensive one.
I might disagree with the idea that Deep Strike is defensive. A big squad of Deathwing Terminators landing and using Deathwing Assault is very offensive in nature.
Or so my opponents seem to think as they are taking heaps of minis off the board
Reivax26 wrote: Any thoughts on what new Psychic powers our Librarians might get?
None whatsoever would be my guess. I could see them improving a couple of ours (for instance, vanilla Marines now have a straight-up better version of Trephination). And we will probably keep access to the Obscuration ones for the Phobos libby.
It would be nice if we could have Ravenwing Librarians who could throw out a cloud over a squad that would make them harder to hit. That way we wouldn't have to take Darkshrouds in every Ravenwing list.
Reivax26 wrote: It would be nice if we could have Ravenwing Librarians who could throw out a cloud over a squad that would make them harder to hit. That way we wouldn't have to take Darkshrouds in every Ravenwing list.
I was looking through the NOVA Open lists to see if anyone was running pure Dark Angels, and it looks like there are a few (no names I recognize though). Some of the lists weren't showing up in the BCP app, though. If people are interested I could post them tomorrow afternoon or something.
ZergSmasher wrote: I was looking through the NOVA Open lists to see if anyone was running pure Dark Angels, and it looks like there are a few (no names I recognize though). Some of the lists weren't showing up in the BCP app, though. If people are interested I could post them tomorrow afternoon or something.
Please do zerg allways interesting to see what people run
Alrighty then, here are the lists I could find for Dark Angels in the NOVA Open GT:
Andres Benitez:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Dark Angels
Ravenwing Attack Squadron
Talonmaster
Talonmaster
Sammael in Sableclaw
9x Intercessors: Bolt Rifles
5x Scouts: Bolters
5x Scouts: Bolters
5x Deathwing Knights: Watcher in the Dark
5x Inceptors: Plasma Exterminators
3x Ravenwing Bikers: 2x Flamer, Storm Bolter
Spearhead Detachment: Dark Angels
Librarian: Force Sword, Jump Pack
Lieutenant in Phobos Armor
Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought: 2x Twin Lascannon
3x Eliminators: Bolt Sniper Rifles
3x Eliminators: Bolt Sniper Rifles
This is an interesting list, and could actually be pretty good. With the recent changes to Inceptors (namely the extra wound), they are cash money, especially if they can get rerolls. Eliminators are really good for Dark Angels too, as since they generally don't move they'll benefit from Grim Resolve and thus not need a Master to reroll 1's to hit, and they can pressure key enemy characters (like Wierdboys, various GSC guys, etc) even out of LOS.
Brian Wilson:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Dark Angels
Asmodai
Azrael
5x Scouts: 3x Bolter, Missile Launcher, Bolt Pistol/Chainsword
5x Scouts: 3x Bolter, Missile Launcher, Bolt Pistol/Chainsword
5x Scouts: 3x Bolter, Missile Launcher, Bolt Pistol/Chainsword
Vanguard Detachment: Dark Angels
Belial
Deathwing Ancient: TH/SS 5x Deathwing Knights: Watcher in the Dark
5x Deathwing Terminators: CML, Watcher in the Dark
Venerable Dreadnought: Heavy Plasma Cannon, DCCW with Storm Bolter
Land Raider Crusader: Multi-melta, Storm Bolter
Supreme Command: Dark Angels
Ezekiel
Librarian in Phobos Armor
Master: Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
This list, while fun and cool, doesn't seem like a top tier contender to me. It has the Deathwing Party Bus (Land Raider full of Deathwing Knights and support characters), but if that vehicle ever survives turn 1 it will be a miracle, as there's literally only one other big thing on the board to shoot at (the Dread, and it's not very scary). Not sure why you'd want a Smash Captain in Dark Angels either, and Azrael doesn't seem very necessary in this list. I'm sure it looks awesome and would be fun to play, but it really isn't competitive.
Chase Garber:
No list found in BCP
Greg Chiasson:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Dark Angels
Azrael
Sammael in Sableclaw
5x Intercessors: Grenade Launcher, Power Sword
5x Intercessors: Grenade Launcher, Power Fist
5x Intercessors: Grenade Launcher, Power Fist
10x Hellblasters: Plasma Incinerators, Plasma Pistol
Darkshroud
Air Wing: Dark Angels
Nephilim Jetfighter: Twin Lascannon
Dark Talon
Dark Talon
Vanguard: Dark Angels
Primaris Lieutenant: Power Sword, Plasma Pistol
3x Company Veterans: 3x Bolters, 3x Bolt Pistols
Primaris Ancient
Primaris Apothecary
Classic Azrael Gunline build, with added air support. Normally I prefer to run two Hellblaster units, but since only one can get Weapons from the Dark Age it isn't strictly necessary. I would definitely take a third Dark Talon over the Nephilim though; the Nephilim is generally far inferior. Points could probably also have been saved by dropping the special melee weapons and plasma pistols and stuff and taking a couple more Vets, with a couple of Storm Bolters in that unit. But that's really just nitpicking.
Someone actually taking Dark Angels in a soup list! I'm not sure how he plans to get the Arco-flagellants into combat without a metal box to keep them safe, but once they get there, I can tell you that they can really ruin anyone's day thanks to their Trigger Word stratagem and the Missionary. I've been on the receiving end of that before. Also, I'm not sold on Land Speeders, although the Signal the Attack stratagem could help them stay useful, combined with Sammy and the Talonmaster. Keeping them from just dying when anyone points something bigger than a bolter their way is the tricky part.
Kyle Myers:
No list found in BCP
Unfortunately that's all I could find in the BCP app. Some interesting lists there for sure. After the event is over we'll see how everyone did and see if my expectations for them were borne out or if I'm talking out of my ass.
ZergSmasher wrote: Alrighty then, here are the lists I could find for Dark Angels in the NOVA Open GT:
Andres Benitez:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Dark Angels
Ravenwing Attack Squadron
Talonmaster
Talonmaster
Sammael in Sableclaw
9x Intercessors: Bolt Rifles
5x Scouts: Bolters
5x Scouts: Bolters
5x Deathwing Knights: Watcher in the Dark
5x Inceptors: Plasma Exterminators
3x Ravenwing Bikers: 2x Flamer, Storm Bolter
Spearhead Detachment: Dark Angels
Librarian: Force Sword, Jump Pack
Lieutenant in Phobos Armor
Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought: 2x Twin Lascannon
3x Eliminators: Bolt Sniper Rifles
3x Eliminators: Bolt Sniper Rifles
This is an interesting list, and could actually be pretty good. With the recent changes to Inceptors (namely the extra wound), they are cash money, especially if they can get rerolls. Eliminators are really good for Dark Angels too, as since they generally don't move they'll benefit from Grim Resolve and thus not need a Master to reroll 1's to hit, and they can pressure key enemy characters (like Wierdboys, various GSC guys, etc) even out of LOS.
Brian Wilson:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Dark Angels
Asmodai
Azrael
5x Scouts: 3x Bolter, Missile Launcher, Bolt Pistol/Chainsword
5x Scouts: 3x Bolter, Missile Launcher, Bolt Pistol/Chainsword
5x Scouts: 3x Bolter, Missile Launcher, Bolt Pistol/Chainsword
Vanguard Detachment: Dark Angels
Belial
Deathwing Ancient: TH/SS 5x Deathwing Knights: Watcher in the Dark
5x Deathwing Terminators: CML, Watcher in the Dark
Venerable Dreadnought: Heavy Plasma Cannon, DCCW with Storm Bolter
Land Raider Crusader: Multi-melta, Storm Bolter
Supreme Command: Dark Angels
Ezekiel
Librarian in Phobos Armor
Master: Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
This list, while fun and cool, doesn't seem like a top tier contender to me. It has the Deathwing Party Bus (Land Raider full of Deathwing Knights and support characters), but if that vehicle ever survives turn 1 it will be a miracle, as there's literally only one other big thing on the board to shoot at (the Dread, and it's not very scary). Not sure why you'd want a Smash Captain in Dark Angels either, and Azrael doesn't seem very necessary in this list. I'm sure it looks awesome and would be fun to play, but it really isn't competitive.
Chase Garber:
No list found in BCP
Greg Chiasson:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Dark Angels
Azrael
Sammael in Sableclaw
5x Intercessors: Grenade Launcher, Power Sword
5x Intercessors: Grenade Launcher, Power Fist
5x Intercessors: Grenade Launcher, Power Fist
10x Hellblasters: Plasma Incinerators, Plasma Pistol
Darkshroud
Air Wing: Dark Angels
Nephilim Jetfighter: Twin Lascannon
Dark Talon
Dark Talon
Vanguard: Dark Angels
Primaris Lieutenant: Power Sword, Plasma Pistol
3x Company Veterans: 3x Bolters, 3x Bolt Pistols
Primaris Ancient
Primaris Apothecary
Classic Azrael Gunline build, with added air support. Normally I prefer to run two Hellblaster units, but since only one can get Weapons from the Dark Age it isn't strictly necessary. I would definitely take a third Dark Talon over the Nephilim though; the Nephilim is generally far inferior. Points could probably also have been saved by dropping the special melee weapons and plasma pistols and stuff and taking a couple more Vets, with a couple of Storm Bolters in that unit. But that's really just nitpicking.
Someone actually taking Dark Angels in a soup list! I'm not sure how he plans to get the Arco-flagellants into combat without a metal box to keep them safe, but once they get there, I can tell you that they can really ruin anyone's day thanks to their Trigger Word stratagem and the Missionary. I've been on the receiving end of that before. Also, I'm not sold on Land Speeders, although the Signal the Attack stratagem could help them stay useful, combined with Sammy and the Talonmaster. Keeping them from just dying when anyone points something bigger than a bolter their way is the tricky part.
Kyle Myers:
No list found in BCP
Unfortunately that's all I could find in the BCP app. Some interesting lists there for sure. After the event is over we'll see how everyone did and see if my expectations for them were borne out or if I'm talking out of my ass.
Thanks Zerg that first list is the most interesting list a few outside the box lists which is allways nice to see I've got a pair of local torneys coming up in the next few months been playing around with a triple repulsor list.its done ok so far in play testing which I'm happy about hopefully won't be too long till we get a much needed new codex
I am going to be bringing a wacky list to an ITC tournament near me in about a month and a half. I am trying to bring an outside the box army that no one is going to expect.
Reivax26 wrote: I am going to be bringing a wacky list to an ITC tournament near me in about a month and a half. I am trying to bring an outside the box army that no one is going to expect.
Azrael, Ezekiel and a company Champion riding in a drop pod with Plasma Vets. Tac squad with all plasma drops with them in another pod providing screen.
2 dev squads provide anti tank while 2 scout sniper squads do their jobs. Squad of Black Knights harass someone and cause distractions while Belial and a full terminator squad land.
General idea is the pods land near an enemy flank while my range lays down cover fire and my bikes either harass the opposite flank or help the pods up that side. Belial and his crew are there to take out screen units and or multiple smaller units.
I am going to be play testing it heavily over the next few weeks.
Three weeks ago I went to a 30-player local tournament with a "Blood for the Blood God" theme - three missions all featuring Kill Points. Scoring was cumulative, so if you killed six units in game 1, eight in game 2 and four in game 3 your tourney score was 18 plus secondaries. Lords of War were worth extra kill points based on wounds. I wasn't planning to attend as I had plans but I did help some friends playtest their armies. The last opponent had a Chaos-Knights list so I tried to bring as close a "hard counter" as I could to give him a good test (pretty much all firepower). My plans changed at the last minute and I was able to attend with about 15 minutes to get my figures ready and head to the store. I did a quick bit of list surgery to add some anti-horde Dakka and went to the FLGS:
Azrael
Lieutenant
Intercessors
Intercessors
Scouts
Hellblasters x 10
Hellblasters x 10 with Heavy Plasma
Devastators with Plasma Cannons (sense a theme?)
Deathwing Knights x 5
Sammael in Sableclaw
Talonmaster
Round 1 vs Ravenguard. He had a Battalion supported by a Land Raider, a Leviathan Dreadnought, a Contemptor Dreadnought, a Redemptor Dreadnought, two Forgeworld tanks and a Techmarine with a cannon. The Leviathan was certainly the primary threat. I lost the roll for first turn and by the end of his shooting my Heavy Hellblasters were down to one man and an Intercessor squad was dead. My focused fire on the Leviathan only stripped seven wounds. Since tourney scoring was cumulative kill points I then switched tactics and just went for kills. I was tabled by Turn 4 having taken down the Contemptor, two Intercessor squads, the Techmarine and his cannon. My gun-line was out-gunlined! My tactics were also not great at the start. I should have gone for cheap kills right away. Still a fun game with some hilarious moments like Sammael getting killed by the Contemptor in close combat but taking the Contemptor's last wound in the ensuing explosion.
Round 2 vs Chaos. He had a Chaos Knight, a small Red Corsairs battalion and a TSons Supreme Command with Magnus, Ahriman and two other sorcerer dudes. This was the kind of list that my own list had been designed to fight. I got first turn and let the plasma fly. The Heavy Hellblasters reduced the Knight to a few wounds that were then stripped by the Plasma Devastators. He poured CP into stratagems to save the Knight in vain. The normal Hellblasters then supercharged into Magnus and reduced him to a few wounds that the Talonmaster and Sammael took away. I felt bad at this point, but we kept playing as he could at least salvage some killpoints. By turn 3 he was tabled and I had lost a scout squad.
Round 3 vs Custodes. He had a small battalion with a huge Jetike squad. This was a strange mission where you got points for killing the enemy and for your own guys dying. Good news for a plasma-based army! Massed plasma wiped out his jetbikes by Turn 2 and then zapped a unit or two each turn. The Deathwing Knights took down a dreadnought and a character before succumbing themselves. I had tabled him by Turn 5 but I still had half my army alive so I didn't score full points. I hadn't geared my list to handle Custodes but it worked out. Sammael and the Talonmaster went on a tear both with firepower (make the Custodes roll lots of saves) and then close combat.
I finished in the middle of the pac, but placing didn't really matter as the theme was destruction. The theme was achieved! The format had some weird scoring elements but the vibe was good and nobody conceded any games since there was an incentive to stay in the fight to scrape out a killpoint or two. The first two games highlighted the Alpha Strike problem from both perspectives. Plasma Inceptors would have helped in the first game but not in the second. I know that Heavy Hellblasters are not a community favourite but they can do a number on Knights and other T8 targets.
ZergSmasher wrote: Alrighty then, here are the lists I could find for Dark Angels in the NOVA Open GT:
Andres Benitez:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Dark Angels
Ravenwing Attack Squadron
Talonmaster
Talonmaster
Sammael in Sableclaw
9x Intercessors: Bolt Rifles
5x Scouts: Bolters
5x Scouts: Bolters
5x Deathwing Knights: Watcher in the Dark
5x Inceptors: Plasma Exterminators
3x Ravenwing Bikers: 2x Flamer, Storm Bolter
Spearhead Detachment: Dark Angels
Librarian: Force Sword, Jump Pack
Lieutenant in Phobos Armor
Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought: 2x Twin Lascannon
3x Eliminators: Bolt Sniper Rifles
3x Eliminators: Bolt Sniper Rifles
This is an interesting list, and could actually be pretty good. With the recent changes to Inceptors (namely the extra wound), they are cash money, especially if they can get rerolls. Eliminators are really good for Dark Angels too, as since they generally don't move they'll benefit from Grim Resolve and thus not need a Master to reroll 1's to hit, and they can pressure key enemy characters (like Wierdboys, various GSC guys, etc) even out of LOS.
Brian Wilson:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Dark Angels
Asmodai
Azrael
5x Scouts: 3x Bolter, Missile Launcher, Bolt Pistol/Chainsword
5x Scouts: 3x Bolter, Missile Launcher, Bolt Pistol/Chainsword
5x Scouts: 3x Bolter, Missile Launcher, Bolt Pistol/Chainsword
Vanguard Detachment: Dark Angels
Belial
Deathwing Ancient: TH/SS 5x Deathwing Knights: Watcher in the Dark
5x Deathwing Terminators: CML, Watcher in the Dark
Venerable Dreadnought: Heavy Plasma Cannon, DCCW with Storm Bolter
Land Raider Crusader: Multi-melta, Storm Bolter
Supreme Command: Dark Angels
Ezekiel
Librarian in Phobos Armor
Master: Jump Pack, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
This list, while fun and cool, doesn't seem like a top tier contender to me. It has the Deathwing Party Bus (Land Raider full of Deathwing Knights and support characters), but if that vehicle ever survives turn 1 it will be a miracle, as there's literally only one other big thing on the board to shoot at (the Dread, and it's not very scary). Not sure why you'd want a Smash Captain in Dark Angels either, and Azrael doesn't seem very necessary in this list. I'm sure it looks awesome and would be fun to play, but it really isn't competitive.
Chase Garber:
No list found in BCP
Greg Chiasson:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Dark Angels
Azrael
Sammael in Sableclaw
5x Intercessors: Grenade Launcher, Power Sword
5x Intercessors: Grenade Launcher, Power Fist
5x Intercessors: Grenade Launcher, Power Fist
10x Hellblasters: Plasma Incinerators, Plasma Pistol
Darkshroud
Air Wing: Dark Angels
Nephilim Jetfighter: Twin Lascannon
Dark Talon
Dark Talon
Vanguard: Dark Angels
Primaris Lieutenant: Power Sword, Plasma Pistol
3x Company Veterans: 3x Bolters, 3x Bolt Pistols
Primaris Ancient
Primaris Apothecary
Classic Azrael Gunline build, with added air support. Normally I prefer to run two Hellblaster units, but since only one can get Weapons from the Dark Age it isn't strictly necessary. I would definitely take a third Dark Talon over the Nephilim though; the Nephilim is generally far inferior. Points could probably also have been saved by dropping the special melee weapons and plasma pistols and stuff and taking a couple more Vets, with a couple of Storm Bolters in that unit. But that's really just nitpicking.
Someone actually taking Dark Angels in a soup list! I'm not sure how he plans to get the Arco-flagellants into combat without a metal box to keep them safe, but once they get there, I can tell you that they can really ruin anyone's day thanks to their Trigger Word stratagem and the Missionary. I've been on the receiving end of that before. Also, I'm not sold on Land Speeders, although the Signal the Attack stratagem could help them stay useful, combined with Sammy and the Talonmaster. Keeping them from just dying when anyone points something bigger than a bolter their way is the tricky part.
Kyle Myers:
No list found in BCP
Unfortunately that's all I could find in the BCP app. Some interesting lists there for sure. After the event is over we'll see how everyone did and see if my expectations for them were borne out or if I'm talking out of my ass.
Thanks Zerg that first list is the most interesting list a few outside the box lists which is allways nice to see I've got a pair of local torneys coming up in the next few months been playing around with a triple repulsor list.its done ok so far in play testing which I'm happy about hopefully won't be too long till we get a much needed new codex
That first list was me at NOVA. I'm gald people find it interesting.
I ended up going 2-4 and then going LWWW in the bracket stage... Interestingly, the list did well against hoard lists and badly against more elite lists.
First game I played against an armageddon guard army with 3 valkyries, a lot of chimeras, and 3 manticores. I managed to spread him out by placing 3 elminators and a bunch of scouts that he had marked for death on the opposite side of the board from my Ravenwing. The inceptor bomb took out a flyer and a chimera and then another chimera on the next turn. The bikes probably won me the game by tying up one of the manticores in combat and getting me linebreaker, as well as the eliminators by killing his Guard commander. The Contemptor Dread lasted the entire game but he was rolling cold.
Second game was against 9 Alaitoc flyers and 5 characters. I tried to boots on the ground the guy but I got unlucky and he managed to kill sammael turn 1. I was tabled by turn 2. If I had gone first I might have had a chance but I don't see any way to win that game on objectives.
Third game was against a Tau triple riptide list and 2 broadsides. Basically I was unable to punch through the drones and I got tabled by turn 5 or 6.
Fourth game was against a Chaos list with thousand sons pyskers and red corsair marines. He had Arhiman, demon prince, sorceror, 3 disco lords, a bunch of cultists, the spider thing from shadowspear, a maulerfied and a helldrake. I castled up and waited for him to come to me. I managed to kill 2/3 disco lords, the spider thing, the maulerfied, and a couple of characters, but then my three landspeeders completely whiffed in combat against the helldrake, which meant they couldn't fall back and shoot, and he managed to kill table me with the remaining 3 units. Probably my closest loss, though it can be hard to say.
Fifth game was against an ork player with 60 boys, 10 tankbusters, 10 stormboys, 2 dragstas, nob bikes and normal bikes. I castled in the corner and waited for him to move up. He sent stuff in in waves, which meant I was able to kill everything that was in charge range. For some reason he deployed the tankbusters in a transport on the other side of the board from me, and I managed to kill the transport with the Contemptor before they closed in. I think they only managed to kill 2 intercessors. First turn I got a boy squad to 1 lol and he brought them back.... but in the end it did not matter.
First bracket game was 3 knights, 2 crusaders and 1 gallant, with 3 culexus assassins and a vindicare and admech... between the inceptor bomb and the landspeeders aI managed to get a knight to 2 wounds, one to 12 wounds, and I got mind wipe and aversion off on the third knight... but then sammael failed a 5 in charge even with the reroll, and I got tabled quickly afterward.
Last three games were against Blood Angels, Necrons, and an almost all grot army. I won all three but by then the games were pretty layed back.
Overall, I enjoyed the list, but the losses were hard. My wins were close, but in my losses, I never scored more than 10 points.
The contemptor was a standout unit, getting work done in every matchup except against 3 knights haha. I actually replaced Azreal with the contemptor the night before the tournament, since the GW store at the event had the new forgeworld DA dreadnought. The Deathwing also worked well to take objectives and just be a nuisance, but I think I would rather have taken 2 or 3 units of 5 bikes, but I did not have time to paint them. Too bad the inceptor bomb is gone now, but at least I got a chance to try it out.
solovino wrote: That first list was me at NOVA. I'm gald people find it interesting.
I ended up going 2-4 and then going LWWW in the bracket stage... Interestingly, the list did well against hoard lists and badly against more elite lists.
First game I played against an armageddon guard army with 3 valkyries, a lot of chimeras, and 3 manticores. I managed to spread him out by placing 3 elminators and a bunch of scouts that he had marked for death on the opposite side of the board from my Ravenwing. The inceptor bomb took out a flyer and a chimera and then another chimera on the next turn. The bikes probably won me the game by tying up one of the manticores in combat and getting me linebreaker, as well as the eliminators by killing his Guard commander. The Contemptor Dread lasted the entire game but he was rolling cold.
Second game was against 9 Alaitoc flyers and 5 characters. I tried to boots on the ground the guy but I got unlucky and he managed to kill sammael turn 1. I was tabled by turn 2. If I had gone first I might have had a chance but I don't see any way to win that game on objectives.
Third game was against a Tau triple riptide list and 2 broadsides. Basically I was unable to punch through the drones and I got tabled by turn 5 or 6.
Fourth game was against a Chaos list with thousand sons pyskers and red corsair marines. He had Arhiman, demon prince, sorceror, 3 disco lords, a bunch of cultists, the spider thing from shadowspear, a maulerfied and a helldrake. I castled up and waited for him to come to me. I managed to kill 2/3 disco lords, the spider thing, the maulerfied, and a couple of characters, but then my three landspeeders completely whiffed in combat against the helldrake, which meant they couldn't fall back and shoot, and he managed to kill table me with the remaining 3 units. Probably my closest loss, though it can be hard to say.
Fifth game was against an ork player with 60 boys, 10 tankbusters, 10 stormboys, 2 dragstas, nob bikes and normal bikes. I castled in the corner and waited for him to move up. He sent stuff in in waves, which meant I was able to kill everything that was in charge range. For some reason he deployed the tankbusters in a transport on the other side of the board from me, and I managed to kill the transport with the Contemptor before they closed in. I think they only managed to kill 2 intercessors. First turn I got a boy squad to 1 lol and he brought them back.... but in the end it did not matter.
First bracket game was 3 knights, 2 crusaders and 1 gallant, with 3 culexus assassins and a vindicare and admech... between the inceptor bomb and the landspeeders aI managed to get a knight to 2 wounds, one to 12 wounds, and I got mind wipe and aversion off on the third knight... but then sammael failed a 5 in charge even with the reroll, and I got tabled quickly afterward.
Last three games were against Blood Angels, Necrons, and an almost all grot army. I won all three but by then the games were pretty layed back.
Overall, I enjoyed the list, but the losses were hard. My wins were close, but in my losses, I never scored more than 10 points.
The contemptor was a standout unit, getting work done in every matchup except against 3 knights haha. I actually replaced Azreal with the contemptor the night before the tournament, since the GW store at the event had the new forgeworld DA dreadnought. The Deathwing also worked well to take objectives and just be a nuisance, but I think I would rather have taken 2 or 3 units of 5 bikes, but I did not have time to paint them. Too bad the inceptor bomb is gone now, but at least I got a chance to try it out.
Thanks for the little writeup! I'm glad you had enjoyed the list and everything. By the way, maybe I'm out of the loop somehow but what do you mean the Inceptor bomb is gone? Did it get nerfed? Banned? Or did you just sell the models or something?
Perhaps I have missed something - what is gone about the Inceptor bomb?
I thought the warlord trait got changed in the new marine codex to only apply for phobos units. Do we still get to use the original phobos warlord traits from the shadowspear booklets?
Perhaps I have missed something - what is gone about the Inceptor bomb?
I thought the warlord trait got changed in the new marine codex to only apply for phobos units. Do we still get to use the original phobos warlord traits from the shadowspear booklets?
I expect it will affect us too. RAI even if it's not RAW currently. Completely forgot about that trait and how good it worked for Inceptors.
Perhaps I have missed something - what is gone about the Inceptor bomb?
I thought the warlord trait got changed in the new marine codex to only apply for phobos units. Do we still get to use the original phobos warlord traits from the shadowspear booklets?
I expect it will affect us too. RAI even if it's not RAW currently. Completely forgot about that trait and how good it worked for Inceptors.
Yeah, It sucks. They really don't want people to mix in phobos with other marines for some reason.
Being able to safely overcharge is a game changer.
Although I had to physically show my codex to two different opponents to convince them that plasma is not on unmodified 1s...
My case of Angels of vengeance terminators was found and is coming back to me.
Now, is there any point to playing a fluffy all deathwing list. Am I being stupid?
It can be fun in narrative games, but the severe lack of cp can hamstring a deathwing force as if you don't want to take scouts or other troops then you are stuck with the 1cp elite based force org chart.
Its really irritating. i used an all Deathwing army in every edition from 2nd to 7th, and while never being the easiest army to win with it never felt pointless.
I`m still trying, I mean, even in my regular DA armies i field 1 unit of knights AND a 10 man termie squad.
I personally don`t think terminators are as bad as many people say especially since the bolter rule and +1 attack on charge etc rule really buffed their offense a lot. It`s just that 8th ed is so lethal that all Deathwing armies really really struggle. Also the must have 50% of army on board at start really means you need land raiders, and thats when things start getting expensive points wise.
*wishing about rules* One thing I think could possibly help if we get a re done book is to take a leaf out of the dark eldar`s playbook, and give us bonus command points for using multiple of the smaller force orgs if say they all had inner circle or ravenwing etc.
DA rumors of actual game play improvements seem to be a no-go and the White Dwarf is going to release some fluffy background stuff and a specific DA vs Fallen mission.
This is just the latest rumor but I'm a bit disappointed.
Good news is that the Frontline guys did say updates are inbound for DA/BA/SW. Bad news is they are probably months away at the soonest (next year's ITC season?).
bananathug wrote: DA rumors of actual game play improvements seem to be a no-go and the White Dwarf is going to release some fluffy background stuff and a specific DA vs Fallen mission.
This is just the latest rumor but I'm a bit disappointed.
Good news is that the Frontline guys did say updates are inbound for DA/BA/SW. Bad news is they are probably months away at the soonest (next year's ITC season?).
Anyone else hear anything else?
Does not surprise me about not seeing a new Dex till sometime next year as gw have a lot in the pipe line for the rest of this year. And you know full well they will drag the sisters out over a few months plus the other 4 marine supplements are this year as well I don't expect a new Angels Dex till April or later
I'm thinking of building a list for a 1500 pt ITC tournament that tries to benefit from the increase in wounds to Gravis models. Basically, creating an Azrael castle around a bunch of Aggressors and Inceptors with a Darkshroud, Lieutenant in Phobos Armor, and Librarian supporting. Because Inceptors have fly it's hard to get the castle stuck in melee, and the units have a decent movement speed to move up the board. Aggressors and the characters can advance to keep up with the Inceptors without losing effective shooting.
Battalion + Outrider detachment for 9CP
Azrael
Lieutenant in Phobos Armor (with the +1 to hit warlord trait)
Librarian
Infiltrator squad (to screen against deepstrike or to take objectives)
Intercessor squad
Scout squad w/Heavy Bolter (Heavy Bolter because I had extra points)
abyrn wrote: I'm thinking of building a list for a 1500 pt ITC tournament that tries to benefit from the increase in wounds to Gravis models. Basically, creating an Azrael castle around a bunch of Aggressors and Inceptors with a Darkshroud, Lieutenant in Phobos Armor, and Librarian supporting. Because Inceptors have fly it's hard to get the castle stuck in melee, and the units have a decent movement speed to move up the board. Aggressors and the characters can advance to keep up with the Inceptors without losing effective shooting.
Battalion + Outrider detachment for 9CP
Azrael
Lieutenant in Phobos Armor (with the +1 to hit warlord trait)
Librarian
Infiltrator squad (to screen against deepstrike or to take objectives)
Intercessor squad
Scout squad w/Heavy Bolter (Heavy Bolter because I had extra points)
2x Eliminator Squads (For holding backfield objectives, deepstrike denial, sniping, and no LOS shooting)
One thing this list could do with is an Ancient to allow the guys to shoot when they die. Otherwise I like it a lot. If you were to upgrade it to 2000 points I would add a couple of Dark Talons and/or a Talonmaster. Also, remember that the +1 to hit warlord trait has been amended to only affect PHOBOS units, so it doesn't work on Inceptors anymore.
abyrn wrote: I'm thinking of building a list for a 1500 pt ITC tournament that tries to benefit from the increase in wounds to Gravis models. Basically, creating an Azrael castle around a bunch of Aggressors and Inceptors with a Darkshroud, Lieutenant in Phobos Armor, and Librarian supporting. Because Inceptors have fly it's hard to get the castle stuck in melee, and the units have a decent movement speed to move up the board. Aggressors and the characters can advance to keep up with the Inceptors without losing effective shooting.
Battalion + Outrider detachment for 9CP
Azrael
Lieutenant in Phobos Armor (with the +1 to hit warlord trait)
Librarian
Infiltrator squad (to screen against deepstrike or to take objectives)
Intercessor squad
Scout squad w/Heavy Bolter (Heavy Bolter because I had extra points)
2x Eliminator Squads (For holding backfield objectives, deepstrike denial, sniping, and no LOS shooting)
One thing this list could do with is an Ancient to allow the guys to shoot when they die. Otherwise I like it a lot. If you were to upgrade it to 2000 points I would add a couple of Dark Talons and/or a Talonmaster. Also, remember that the +1 to hit warlord trait has been amended to only affect PHOBOS units, so it doesn't work on Inceptors anymore.
Dark Talons and an Ancient could be a nice addition at 2k pts, thanks for the feedback.
As for the warlord trait, It got amended in the new SM codex, not in the Space Marines Summer Update or the Space Marines: Other Publications FAQ. Until it gets fixed in an FAQ specifically mentioning DA, we get to use the version in the original booklet since that is the only document that applies to DA.... At least that is my understanding.
The contents got leaked last weeks or so, the only things the WD include are some lore updates integrating primaris marines into the first and second companies and a narrative mission to capture a fallen character.
Played against Nurgle Daemons with Death Guard allies. We played Spearhead with 5 objectives on the board. I called it after turn 4 as I could not catch him on points.
Azrael
Terminator Librarian
Sniper Scouts
Sniper Scouts
Tac squad 10 strong with triple plasma
Darkshroud
Drop pod
Belial
10 Terminators
5 Deathwing Knights
5 company veterans all plasma
Drop pod
Land Raider Crusader with MM
The idea that I had a while back about drop pods with Azrael was rather effective at making a small fortress in the middle of my lines. He got frustrated trying to break through it. Belial and his crew of Terminators took out some Blightlord Terminators who had dropped in to try and take one of my objectives. I used the Darkshroud to give the formation in the center the buff.
Take away from this was that with more drop pods, especially Dreadnoughts in pods to help the original drop pod wall idea could be amazing at blocking off entire parts of the board. The Crusader was basically a sponge for all his anti tank. The Deathwing Knights got eaten by Rottigus without doing much.
I think for my upcoming tournament I am definitely going with a gunline battalion backed up by a Ravenwing Outrider detachment. If I had more pods and Dreadnoughts I would do the wall but unfortunately I don't have the money and the tournament is too soon to get them and paint them.
I just thought I'd add this as I have a copy of White Dwarf on my lap.
Key takeaways from the book from somebody who's read a decent chunk of Dark Angels stuff.
Lore
Spoiler:
1) major lore setpiece is that some Greyshield got inducted into the Deathwing. Azrael approved this over the objections of many of the Masters and Chapter Masters (e.g. the Unforgiven successors were included in the debate), and his word overruled them. Deathwing specifically nominated said Greyshield. He was selected based on being the sole survivor in a squad of 10 Primaris Intercessors that guarded a chokepoint behind the Deathwing while they nabbed a bad guy. Deathwing were contemptuous towards him and kept him away from their op, didn't care about his comrades, but nonetheless rescued him from death and took his comrades Primaris geneseed, nominated him for the Deathwing based on singlehandedly killing dozens of cultists - yes, cultists with his knife and hand-to-hand combat.
2) Another Primaris who was inducted fully into the Chapter as a new recruit has apparently joined the Ravenwing.
3) the writers obviously goofed (this isn't exactly Gav Thorpe writing this) and advised us that "Captain" Balthasar of the 5th Company (yes, that model from the Dark Vengeance starter kit, be still my beating heart) is now slain and replaced with Captain Lazarus, who is officially a Company Master (or Captain hurrdurr), was given the Primaris Rubicon to save him from death. E.g. the Master of the 5th Company is a Primaris named Lazarus, however he is an OG Dark Angel and not a Greyshield.
Rules:
1) there are no rules in this book for 40k open, narrative, or matched play of any kind
2) this book is merely to tell you that there is officially a Primaris Company Master (specifically of the 5th Company), a Primaris inducted into the Deathwing (formerly of the Greyshields), and a Primaris new recruit in the Ravenwing. Primaris were officially approved by Azrael to be inducted into the Deathwing; all successor chapters were present. E.g. you may now represent your models as being a Primaris Company Master. Model accordingly.
3) Dark Angels have accepted Primaris upgrades to existing Space Marines. This is most commonly used on wounded Marines, but some have accepted the upgrade. Some traditionalists resist.
4) What the heck even is a Deathwing Primaris supposed to do? Can they even fit in Tactical Dreadnought armor? Even moreso Ravenwing Primaris. Should we start painting Grav Tanks black or something? See 5).
5) Primaris Redemptor Dreadnought in Deathwing colors. This was not explained in the lore. But this means you now have permission to model accordingly and narrate to your heart's content.
On point 2: you already could have Primaris Company Masters because there are 3 Primaris exclusive successors. The important bit isn't that, it's that there's a Primaris Inner Circle member, which the Unforgiven as a whole were forbidding. The whole article is about Dark Angels now allowing Primaris to learn the secret history of the Unforgiven which has becomes necessity both because of attrition (the article is pretty heavy on the implication that the Unforgiven will be slowly phased into pure Primaris as old Marines die or require the Rubicon to survive wounds) and because of the growing mass gathering of the Fallen with Luthor free.
My remaining question is really what exactly does a Deathwing or Ravenwing Primaris do other than be a Company Master or a Redemptor Dread.
It's not really said if they are able to wear Tactical Dreadnought Armor on account of their different size, if they can ride bikes or pilot the same vehicles. The Ravenwing and Deathwing Primaris raises modeling questions to me.
If they don't ride bikes or wear Terminator armor, what the heck are they. Are they painted black or bone white?
Do said Primaris successor chapters even have Deathwing or Ravenwing companies? Have they shown their color schemes or heraldry?
It's just story future proofing for any units or characters they may introduce in Codex DA 2.0 and to show that even the Dark Angels are beginning to trust the new. It probably helps that the Master is Arisen and the other two are Awakened.
I was under the impression that Primaris Deathwing, rather than wearing Terminator armor, all have Gravis armor. So, paint some Aggressors in bone white!
Platuan4th wrote: It's just story future proofing for any units or characters they may introduce in Codex DA 2.0 and to show that even the Dark Angels are beginning to trust the new. It probably helps that the Master is Arisen and the other two are Awakened.
I believe it's stated that Ultima Founding Successors follow standard Codex formation since the Wings are purely a product of the Hunt and Guilliman made a concession on the formation change when he met with Azrael.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZergSmasher wrote: I was under the impression that Primaris Deathwing, rather than wearing Terminator armor, all have Gravis armor. So, paint some Aggressors in bone white!
It's not stated as such since this is the first(and so far only) Deathwing Primaris.
ZergSmasher wrote: I was under the impression that Primaris Deathwing, rather than wearing Terminator armor, all have Gravis armor. So, paint some Aggressors in bone white!
Not confirmed. The White Dwarf still shows them in Caliban green and they have not been shown in DW colors or confirmed Inner Circle.
I would prefer to imagine said DW Greyshield is acting as a Primaris Lieutenant while they figure out what else to do with him.
It's not stated as such since this is the first(and so far only) Deathwing Primaris.
It is not stated that they are Aggressors, however, it does in fact mention that a newly inducted Master of the 5th accepted Primaris upgrades. Not a Greyshield or Indomitus recruit, however he is most likely DW as all Masters are members of the DW (even though the article calls him incorrectly to be a Captain).
They also show a Primaris Redemptor Dread in DW colors. If that's even possible, it's confirmation of more than one member of the DW who is also Primaris.
ZergSmasher wrote: I was under the impression that Primaris Deathwing, rather than wearing Terminator armor, all have Gravis armor. So, paint some Aggressors in bone white!
It's not stated as such since this is the first(and so far only) Deathwing Primaris.
I thought I read that it said that Primaris marines in the Deathwing wear the heaviest forms of Mk. X armor, which would be Gravis by my interpretation. Maybe I read it wrong somehow, but that's the impression I got.
ZergSmasher wrote: I was under the impression that Primaris Deathwing, rather than wearing Terminator armor, all have Gravis armor. So, paint some Aggressors in bone white!
It's not stated as such since this is the first(and so far only) Deathwing Primaris.
I thought I read that it said that Primaris marines in the Deathwing wear the heaviest forms of Mk. X armor, which would be Gravis by my interpretation. Maybe I read it wrong somehow, but that's the impression I got.
You read it wrong. Nowhere in the Dark Angel articles do they mention Aggressors beyond showing pictures of them (in green) in a staffer's army.
ZergSmasher wrote: I was under the impression that Primaris Deathwing, rather than wearing Terminator armor, all have Gravis armor. So, paint some Aggressors in bone white!
It's not stated as such since this is the first(and so far only) Deathwing Primaris.
I thought I read that it said that Primaris marines in the Deathwing wear the heaviest forms of Mk. X armor, which would be Gravis by my interpretation. Maybe I read it wrong somehow, but that's the impression I got.
You read it wrong. Nowhere in the Dark Angel articles do they mention Aggressors beyond showing pictures of them (in green) in a staffer's army.
The article mentions Deathwing being in the heaviest of Terminator or Mk X armour, deployed by teleporter, Land Raider or Repulser. So we can infer Aggressors with Repulsers in the Deathwing. How that will play out rules wise is anyone’s guess.
The lore also mentions Devastator Centurions. Maybe a mistake?
The stratagem for Retribution of the Inner Circle in the Narrative mission would be great for Matched Play - makes Deathwing Knights much more reliablle.
ZergSmasher wrote: I was under the impression that Primaris Deathwing, rather than wearing Terminator armor, all have Gravis armor. So, paint some Aggressors in bone white!
It's not stated as such since this is the first(and so far only) Deathwing Primaris.
I thought I read that it said that Primaris marines in the Deathwing wear the heaviest forms of Mk. X armor, which would be Gravis by my interpretation. Maybe I read it wrong somehow, but that's the impression I got.
You read it wrong. Nowhere in the Dark Angel articles do they mention Aggressors beyond showing pictures of them (in green) in a staffer's army.
The article mentions Deathwing being in the heaviest of Terminator or Mk X armour, deployed by teleporter, Land Raider or Repulser. So we can infer Aggressors with Repulsers in the Deathwing. How that will play out rules wise is anyone’s guess.
The lore also mentions Devastator Centurions. Maybe a mistake?
The stratagem for Retribution of the Inner Circle in the Narrative mission would be great for Matched Play - makes Deathwing Knights much more reliablle.
Eyeroll.
Between devastator centurions and 'Captain' Lazarus, this article was clearly not written by anyone who has recently read the codex.
I'm going to suggest holding off on any Primaris Deathwing until the Codex.
Platuan4th wrote: By "Heaviest of Mk. X", you can infer any Gravis armor or even something they haven't revealed yet. Again, they don't mention Aggressors.
Sure, but Inceptors have Jump Packs and can’t go on the Repulsors that the article mentions being on the Deathwing.
It’s a WD article and far from definitive, but it is from GW. It’s not fan fiction. Perhaps it’s an indication of how they are thinking. Will I paint up Deathwing Aggressors based on the article? Nope. They are better green with Azrael anyway.
I don’t think anyone is saying that the WD has Aggressors painted up as Deathwing. The WD article implied Deathwing MkX armour - that’s all. It’s not rules, but perhaps a window into how the developers are thinking.
I would be very happy if the Retribution of the Inner Circle stratagem makes it int the next codex. It would make Deathwing Knights more impactful.
Since we don't get the Combat Doctrines stuff, I was wondering what you guys thought about running Death Korps of Kreig detachments with a large Ravenwing Outrider detachment.
I thought it might be interesting since they are the Guard regiment that would get along best with the Dark Angels grim and stubborn mentality.
Go for it DKoK should always be played .... love the aesthetic. Also Dark Angels commanders seem to be a little more practical as long as the fallen are not involved.
I’d think carefully before buying in to a Loyal 32 detachment if you haven’t already got one. Unless you’re wealthy and a quick painter, you might put a lot of work and sacrifice into it only to find a DA CD comes around the corner and renders them a relative liability
I don't think we are going to get anything until next fall at the soonest. GW have made it quite apparent that the Dark Angels and Space Wolves don't matter to them at all currently.
They only did the September White Dwarf to placate us. Don't be surprised if there's a Space Wolf version of what you saw in the Winter months. Talking about Primaris Wolf Lords and all that jazz.
I am going to keep playing them regardless though since I actually enjoy playing the army even if it's considered bottom tier.
Just makes all the sweeter when you do knock off some smug ass.
How about some good news to start the week I was looking through the results for the iron halo event this past weekend a dark angles list had 4 wins to finish in 14th place
An interesting if aggressive list. I'd be curious to see how it plays. It loos like a close assault list, but if it is, it shouldn't be a Dark Angels list since you need to stand still for the chapter tactic. I wonder if it's some kind of objective grabbing list. In that scenario the inflitrators and scouts could hole up in terrain and plink away while the enemy tries to handle the Agressors/Repulsors combo
EDIT: Just realized that this is only the first page. Was the second detachment like the first?
An interesting if aggressive list. I'd be curious to see how it plays. It loos like a close assault list, but if it is, it shouldn't be a Dark Angels list since you need to stand still for the chapter tactic. I wonder if it's some kind of objective grabbing list. In that scenario the inflitrators and scouts could hole up in terrain and plink away while the enemy tries to handle the Agressors/Repulsors combo
EDIT: Just realized that this is only the first page. Was the second detachment like the first?
I wouldn't have thought that would work very well for Dark Angels. Shows what I know, huh?
Instead of moaning about all the shiny new things vanilla Marines got and we didn't get (like doctrines, litanies, etc.), I've been trying to think of everything Dark Angels can do that regular Marines can't do quite as well, or that we have and regular Marines don't have. Plasma is one of the first things I think of, as we can pump out 3 damage plasma with WotDA. What's more, we can pump out large numbers of such shots with units like Inceptors or Hellblasters or even Black Knights. Another major trick we have is Speed of the Raven, which is pretty naughty on a Dark Talon. Dark Talons are still one of the best Imperial flyers in the game. Every DA list should have at least one, preferably two. The other major thing we have that Marines don't is Talonmasters and Sableclaw. Those guys are solid gold, and I try to bring at least one Talonmaster in every list I make.
Interestingly, the list posted above that did so well at Iron Halo had none of those things in it. Either that player is pretty amazing, or he got really lucky with his matchups. The units he used would be better in almost any Marine army other than DA I would think.
ZergSmasher wrote: I wouldn't have thought that would work very well for Dark Angels. Shows what I know, huh?
Instead of moaning about all the shiny new things vanilla Marines got and we didn't get (like doctrines, litanies, etc.), I've been trying to think of everything Dark Angels can do that regular Marines can't do quite as well, or that we have and regular Marines don't have. Plasma is one of the first things I think of, as we can pump out 3 damage plasma with WotDA. What's more, we can pump out large numbers of such shots with units like Inceptors or Hellblasters or even Black Knights. Another major trick we have is Speed of the Raven, which is pretty naughty on a Dark Talon. Dark Talons are still one of the best Imperial flyers in the game. Every DA list should have at least one, preferably two. The other major thing we have that Marines don't is Talonmasters and Sableclaw. Those guys are solid gold, and I try to bring at least one Talonmaster in every list I make.
Interestingly, the list posted above that did so well at Iron Halo had none of those things in it. Either that player is pretty amazing, or he got really lucky with his matchups. The units he used would be better in almost any Marine army other than DA I would think.
Intresting you bring up the other units that are more common ie dark talons and such there was another dark Angels list at iron halo that won a game.i do think there is merit looking out side the box when it comes to making list instead of the cookie cutter lists you tend to see at events that never seem to do well at all ie ravenwing and the terrible azzie hellblaster castle
ZergSmasher wrote: I wouldn't have thought that would work very well for Dark Angels. Shows what I know, huh?
Instead of moaning about all the shiny new things vanilla Marines got and we didn't get (like doctrines, litanies, etc.), I've been trying to think of everything Dark Angels can do that regular Marines can't do quite as well, or that we have and regular Marines don't have. Plasma is one of the first things I think of, as we can pump out 3 damage plasma with WotDA. What's more, we can pump out large numbers of such shots with units like Inceptors or Hellblasters or even Black Knights. Another major trick we have is Speed of the Raven, which is pretty naughty on a Dark Talon. Dark Talons are still one of the best Imperial flyers in the game. Every DA list should have at least one, preferably two. The other major thing we have that Marines don't is Talonmasters and Sableclaw. Those guys are solid gold, and I try to bring at least one Talonmaster in every list I make.
Interestingly, the list posted above that did so well at Iron Halo had none of those things in it. Either that player is pretty amazing, or he got really lucky with his matchups. The units he used would be better in almost any Marine army other than DA I would think.
Intresting you bring up the other units that are more common ie dark talons and such there was another dark Angels list at iron halo that won a game.i do think there is merit looking out side the box when it comes to making list instead of the cookie cutter lists you tend to see at events that never seem to do well at all ie ravenwing and the terrible azzie hellblaster castle
I agree the Azrael Hellblaster castle is awful, I don't understand why people who don't play DA keep recommending I run it or ask why I'm not running it. It has no board presence and very little killing power over 15".
I'm not sold on the Dark Talon either. 200 points for 12 bolter shots, a rift cannon and a bomb? What am I missing.
Any marines that can deepstrike can drop units so much better for so much cheaper. The IH flyers are way better and I don't seem to have a problem getting bolter shots where I need them.
I guess paired with sammy, a dark shroud and a talon master they can do work but that's like half your army tied up in some mediocre anti-infantry.
Plasma inceptors are just about all I've found that works competitively for me and they just flat don't work against eldar. Eliminators are not terrible, the re-roll 1's when not moving is good on them. If suppressors could use speed of the raven they wouldn't bet terrible (but they can't).
But, even our libbies with the two -1 to hit powers are too unreliable (getting the power off w/o getting denied is like a 30-40% chance against most armies).
The company champions are a cute gimick but really need jump packs or bikes to be worth it. Deathwing knights are too slow. Too much d2 damage for bikes to work (this could change with IH basically invalidating d2 shooting). With no overwatch mitigation close combat is out the window (too much tau, ultras, IH).
With no relief on the horizon I have no idea how to stay/get excited about playing with my guys.
bananathug wrote: I'm not sold on the Dark Talon either. 200 points for 12 bolter shots, a rift cannon and a bomb? What am I missing.
Any marines that can deepstrike can drop units so much better for so much cheaper. The IH flyers are way better and I don't seem to have a problem getting bolter shots where I need them.
I guess paired with sammy, a dark shroud and a talon master they can do work but that's like half your army tied up in some mediocre anti-infantry.
Plasma inceptors are just about all I've found that works competitively for me and they just flat don't work against eldar. Eliminators are not terrible, the re-roll 1's when not moving is good on them. If suppressors could use speed of the raven they wouldn't bet terrible (but they can't).
But, even our libbies with the two -1 to hit powers are too unreliable (getting the power off w/o getting denied is like a 30-40% chance against most armies).
The company champions are a cute gimick but really need jump packs or bikes to be worth it. Deathwing knights are too slow. Too much d2 damage for bikes to work (this could change with IH basically invalidating d2 shooting). With no overwatch mitigation close combat is out the window (too much tau, ultras, IH).
With no relief on the horizon I have no idea how to stay/get excited about playing with my guys.
Do you have intercessors? Eldar hate intercessors, since they tend to fail the armor saves and the +1 to hit negates their advantages. Eldar Jetbikes *hate* DA intercessors.
If you can get a DT within 12 inches it's 24 bolter shots, hitting on 2's vs. anything without fly. Not going to do much against a Knight, but that's what the Rift Cannon is for. The Stasis Bomb is absolutely cash money. Very nice way to thin out some hordes. My Dark Talons put in solid work in almost every game I play with them.
Pretty much what i expected when I saw the list. he is just a good player, and it's really not much to do with being Dark Angels. Would have probably been better as a different SM faction but still a solid, generic list.
bullyboy wrote: Pretty much what i expected when I saw the list. he is just a good player, and it's really not much to do with being Dark Angels. Would have probably been better as a different SM faction but still a solid, generic list.
This list is so much better as IH it is not even funny (big guns on the executioners).
Reading over the battle reports it seems like a lot of the players he played on day 1 weren't in it to win it. I'm not sure if this is the type of list I'd try to copy as a DA player. I think it shows what a good player can do with a list they practice with. Also it shows how bad DA stuff is when none of it makes it into a DA list (and it's better to play with powered down SM tools...).
bullyboy wrote: Pretty much what i expected when I saw the list. he is just a good player, and it's really not much to do with being Dark Angels. Would have probably been better as a different SM faction but still a solid, generic list.
This list is so much better as IH it is not even funny (big guns on the executioners).
Reading over the battle reports it seems like a lot of the players he played on day 1 weren't in it to win it. I'm not sure if this is the type of list I'd try to copy as a DA player. I think it shows what a good player can do with a list they practice with. Also it shows how bad DA stuff is when none of it makes it into a DA list (and it's better to play with powered down SM tools...).
I'm not sure that a list with two Relic Leviathan and a Repulser Executioer qualifies as "off-beat." What's off-beat I suppose is that he went Dark Angels!
Good to see the Plasma Executioner getting some work done, though.
I'm not sure that a list with two Relic Leviathan and a Repulser Executioer qualifies as "off-beat." What's off-beat I suppose is that he went Dark Angels!
Good to see the Plasma Executioner getting some work done, though.
What I meant was he wasn't running the Azrael castle or a big blob of Ravenwing Black Knights or 3 Talonmasters or something you typically see with Dark Angels. Hence why I thought it was offbeat. The list would have probably been better as Iron Hands for sure though.
In other news, I'll probably have a Leviathan Dread of my own to try out in games very soon since I got one relatively cheaply from an acquaintance of mine.
I played in a 20 man ITC format tournament earlier. Here's the list:
Battalion
Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought: Twin Lascannons
Lt
Scout Snipers
Scout Snipers
Tac squad with Heavy Bolter
Tac squad with Plasma Cannon and Combi Plasma
Devastators: 3 Missile Launchers and 1 Lascannon. Cherub.
Ravenwing Outrider Detachment from Vigilus
Sammy on Sableclaw
Darkshroud
5 Black Knights
3 Typhoon Missile/Heavy Bolter Land Speeders
Dark Talon
Nephilim Jetfighter
So first game I drew Nurgle Daemons/Chaos Knights. He won 22 to 14. He used 60 Plaguebearers and some Nurglings to hold objectives while 2 big Knights and one little one annoyed people. I held my own rather well against him in the first few rounds. Even he admitted that his FNP rolls were what saved his ass.
2nd game was against Ad Mech/Imperial Knights. This guy had literally 3 little squads and 2 cheap commanders of Ad Mech and then 4 of the Knights with 24+ wounds. It was rather disgusting. He tabled me at the end of 4. 35-10.
3rd game was against Astra Militarum with a bunch of Leman Russes, 2 Basilisks, a Wyvern, 3 Heavy Weapons teams and a bunch of Guardsmen. I seized the initiative and after the 3rd turn he forfeited. 32-11.
All in all the list was balanced and in the one game where I wasn't playing against the Soup nonsense it shined. It tore the Guard up, including his tanks. I definitely want to get the shooty Deredeo Dreadnought from Forge World for some more fire support though.
Someone please explain how people think the dark talon is one of the best flyers in the game. Alaitoc flyers, dissie cannon DE flyers, the new IH fliers, necron croissants + strat are all much better by the numbers. 200 points for 24 bs 2+ bolter shots and a d3 rift cannon? Seems so average to me.
I find myself firmly on the side of the author of the article and really struggle to find anything in our dex that we do better than another flavor of marines outside of suicide plasma ceptors (until GW updates the phobos warlord trait).
I am still of the mindset that we should have a strat or something that would make Deathwing more viable. Maybe a detachment style thing like the Ravenwing got in Vigilus?
As it stands right now I am listing pros and cons of the various Imperial factions I could team up with to try and fix some of our drawbacks.
Reivax26 wrote: I am still of the mindset that we should have a strat or something that would make Deathwing more viable. Maybe a detachment style thing like the Ravenwing got in Vigilus?
As it stands right now I am listing pros and cons of the various Imperial factions I could team up with to try and fix some of our drawbacks.
Deathwing won't be viable again as gw had 4+yrs of play testing 8th and the rules we have now are the best they could come up with
Reivax26 wrote: I am still of the mindset that we should have a strat or something that would make Deathwing more viable. Maybe a detachment style thing like the Ravenwing got in Vigilus?
As it stands right now I am listing pros and cons of the various Imperial factions I could team up with to try and fix some of our drawbacks.
Deathwing won't be viable again as gw had 4+yrs of play testing 8th and the rules we have now are the best they could come up with
If they gave us the strat that showed up on the White Dwarf mission last month (2cp for d6 movement after deepstrike) DW Knights at least would be viable. If they increased their wounds to 3 and toughness to 5 as they did for Gravis armor they would be viable. They know how to fix them but for some reason they are resisting.
They (DW Knights) are just so poorly designed I don't get it.
A melee unit that relies on making a charge from deepstrike with no bonuses (maybe a re-roll) or rolling in a 300 point transport.
The no first turn deepstrike rule (which GW has already feth'ed up) really hurt termies and plasma ceptors. The 2 cp for d6 movement after deepstrike would be awesome. So would a rule that let termies deepstrike turn 1 or something that allowed them to deepstrike w/in 6" of a unit of scouts or a character relic that would allow them to deepstrike w/in 6". That plus t5 and 3 wounds would make them a great unit (maybe asking too much, maybe just 3 wounds).
Bikers need a couple point drop because right now, vs 2 d weapons just return too many points killed vs too many weapons. Anti-armor weapons and anti-elite weapons just get too good of a ROI vs bikes (a 3rd wound and a 5 point reduction would be awesome). Not being able to go upstairs and into ruins limits their viability on a lot of tables but at least they wouldn't be a non-starter.
Plasma needs 1 MW on an unmodified roll of 1. Hellblasters need the heavy version go to d3, the assault version go to assault 2, over charge for assault 3-4 (s 6, -3, 1d) and maybe a small price drop (2-3 points).
All the characters need to come down in points (hell 3 IH land speeders are better than sammy in sable claw). Chaplain with litanies...
We need some sort of movement shenanigans (deepstrike, scout deploy, pre-game move, outflank, redeployment, psychic power, disembark after movement).
Dark talon back to it's pre-nerf price or better yet redefine the roles of the flyers. Change rift-cannon to assault 8, s6, ap -2, d 1 (or something to deal with elite-ish infantry). Nephilim gets the anti-fly bonuses (+1 to hit vs fly, additional -1 to be hit vs units that can fly) Mega bolter down to 25 points, missiles +1 to hit vs fly and d6 damage...
I'd like to see our super doctrine (if we get one) apply differently to raven and death wings (and primaris get those keywords since some are DA who have crossed the rubicon, right?).
Okay, this turned into a poorly thought out rant but the point being is DA need a lot of help. I'm curious to see what eldar get in this first psychic awakening book. Depending on it's scope there could be potential for us, if it's just 77 pages of fluff and 3 pages of lazy rules I hope the salamanders codex is good or green IH here I come...
Reivax26 wrote: I am still of the mindset that we should have a strat or something that would make Deathwing more viable. Maybe a detachment style thing like the Ravenwing got in Vigilus?
As it stands right now I am listing pros and cons of the various Imperial factions I could team up with to try and fix some of our drawbacks.
Deathwing won't be viable again as gw had 4+yrs of play testing 8th and the rules we have now are the best they could come up with
If they gave us the strat that showed up on the White Dwarf mission last month (2cp for d6 movement after deepstrike) DW Knights at least would be viable. If they increased their wounds to 3 and toughness to 5 as they did for Gravis armor they would be viable. They know how to fix them but for some reason they are resisting.
There not primaris marines so they won't get fixed is the answer your looking for
Reivax26 wrote: I am still of the mindset that we should have a strat or something that would make Deathwing more viable. Maybe a detachment style thing like the Ravenwing got in Vigilus?
As it stands right now I am listing pros and cons of the various Imperial factions I could team up with to try and fix some of our drawbacks.
Deathwing won't be viable again as gw had 4+yrs of play testing 8th and the rules we have now are the best they could come up with
If they gave us the strat that showed up on the White Dwarf mission last month (2cp for d6 movement after deepstrike) DW Knights at least would be viable. If they increased their wounds to 3 and toughness to 5 as they did for Gravis armor they would be viable. They know how to fix them but for some reason they are resisting.
There not primaris marines so they won't get fixed is the answer your looking for
You mean like the recent point adjustments for tactical and devastator marines?
So, I think I've got a viable list for a big tournament in a couple of weeks. Here's what I'm planning on running:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Dark Angels
Ravenwing Attack Squadron
Sammael in Sableclaw
Ravenwing Talonmaster (Warlord: Brilliant Strategist): Heavenfall Blade
Ravenwing Talonmaster: Monster Slayer of Caliban
5 Infiltrators
5 Scouts: Pistols/CCW 5 Scouts: 3x Boltgun, Heavy Bolter, Pistol/CCW on Sgt.
3 Scout Bikers: Storm Bolter on Sgt.
3 Scout Bikers: Storm Bolter on Sgt.
Ravenwing Dark Talon
Ravenwing Dark Talon
Spearhead: Dark Angels
Master in Phobos Armor
3 Eliminators: Bolt Sniper Rifles
3 Eliminators: Bolt Sniper Rifles
3 Eliminators: Bolt Sniper Rifles
Relic Leviathan Dreadnought: 2x Stormcannon Array, 3x Hunter-Killer Missile
I've already tried this list out against a friend's White Scars list and it did pretty well. I won the game mainly because I seized and my dice were pretty hot for at least the first couple of turns. I definitely like Eliminators for Dark Angels, as they synergize very well with Grim Resolve since they usually want to sit still. The Leviathan is also pretty much a boss; if I had 2 of them I'd run them both. Dark Talons are also still pretty nice; that Stasis Bomb can be really nasty against high-cost single-wound models, particularly ones with good saves (in the game against the White Scars, one of them killed 7 Vanguard Veterans with Storm Shields in cover). They aren't too impressive against massed armor like Knights or the triple Repulsor Executioner list, but they are still good for getting certain ITC secondaries like Recon or Behind Enemy Lines or even Linebreaker if you choose the Old School secondary. The Scout Bikers are also good for grabbing stuff downfield, as unlike the planes they can actually take objectives. Scout Bikes are still better than Ravenwing in most situations partly due to having more firepower and because they are actually slightly faster. Scouts and Infiltrators are good for board control, with the Eliminators providing a nice bubble of Nope! to enemy units coming in from reserves (which can be clutch against armies like Genestealer Cults or Orks using Da Jump). Sammy and the Talonmasters are probably the best HQ's in our codex currently. They put out a pretty hefty amount of punishment against hordes with their guns, and they are no slouches in CC either thanks to Shock Assault. This is why I always try to take both relic swords on my Talonmasters, as it makes them useful in two phases of the game instead of just shooting. Ravenwing Attack Squadron is also nice because it grants access to Signal the Attack and the much more situational Swift Strike. The main stratagems the list will use will be Speed of the Raven (often to allow one of the planes to advance, drop its bomb on something, and still shoot something else), Signal the Attack (to make sure that a particular unit dies when the speeder characters and planes attack it) and Intractable (mainly useful if something manages to bad-touch the Leviathan).
ZergSmasher wrote: So, I think I've got a viable list for a big tournament in a couple of weeks. Here's what I'm planning on running:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Dark Angels
Ravenwing Attack Squadron
Sammael in Sableclaw
Ravenwing Talonmaster (Warlord: Brilliant Strategist): Heavenfall Blade
Ravenwing Talonmaster: Monster Slayer of Caliban
5 Infiltrators
5 Scouts: Pistols/CCW 5 Scouts: 3x Boltgun, Heavy Bolter, Pistol/CCW on Sgt.
3 Scout Bikers: Storm Bolter on Sgt.
3 Scout Bikers: Storm Bolter on Sgt.
Ravenwing Dark Talon
Ravenwing Dark Talon
Spearhead: Dark Angels
Master in Phobos Armor
3 Eliminators: Bolt Sniper Rifles
3 Eliminators: Bolt Sniper Rifles
3 Eliminators: Bolt Sniper Rifles
Relic Leviathan Dreadnought: 2x Stormcannon Array, 3x Hunter-Killer Missile
I've already tried this list out against a friend's White Scars list and it did pretty well. I won the game mainly because I seized and my dice were pretty hot for at least the first couple of turns. I definitely like Eliminators for Dark Angels, as they synergize very well with Grim Resolve since they usually want to sit still. The Leviathan is also pretty much a boss; if I had 2 of them I'd run them both. Dark Talons are also still pretty nice; that Stasis Bomb can be really nasty against high-cost single-wound models, particularly ones with good saves (in the game against the White Scars, one of them killed 7 Vanguard Veterans with Storm Shields in cover). They aren't too impressive against massed armor like Knights or the triple Repulsor Executioner list, but they are still good for getting certain ITC secondaries like Recon or Behind Enemy Lines or even Linebreaker if you choose the Old School secondary. The Scout Bikers are also good for grabbing stuff downfield, as unlike the planes they can actually take objectives. Scout Bikes are still better than Ravenwing in most situations partly due to having more firepower and because they are actually slightly faster. Scouts and Infiltrators are good for board control, with the Eliminators providing a nice bubble of Nope! to enemy units coming in from reserves (which can be clutch against armies like Genestealer Cults or Orks using Da Jump). Sammy and the Talonmasters are probably the best HQ's in our codex currently. They put out a pretty hefty amount of punishment against hordes with their guns, and they are no slouches in CC either thanks to Shock Assault. This is why I always try to take both relic swords on my Talonmasters, as it makes them useful in two phases of the game instead of just shooting. Ravenwing Attack Squadron is also nice because it grants access to Signal the Attack and the much more situational Swift Strike. The main stratagems the list will use will be Speed of the Raven (often to allow one of the planes to advance, drop its bomb on something, and still shoot something else), Signal the Attack (to make sure that a particular unit dies when the speeder characters and planes attack it) and Intractable (mainly useful if something manages to bad-touch the Leviathan).
I think the list looks very good and you have a good gameplan, the only thing I would think to change is the Master in phobos armor. I understand he gives out a no-deepstrike bubble, but it might be better to replace him with either a librarian in phobos armor or a lieutenant in phobos armor so that you can still get the target priority warlord trait.
I played against Speed Freak Orks with 2 Gorkanauts earlier. Was up 9-4 at the end of the 3rd turn and the guy called it. List was:
Belial
10 Deathwing Terminators with 2 Chainfists and 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers.
DW Ancient
DW Apothecary
Ven Dread with Twin Lascannons
Sammy
3 RW bikes with 2 Flamers. Sgt with Combi-Flamer
3 RW bikes with 2 Plasmaguns. Attack Bike with MM attached.
5 RW Knights
Nephilim Jetfighter
Dark Talon
Reivax26 wrote: Just got a Stormraven. Have never used one before. Any advice?
I've been trying to make mine work with Deathwing Knights since we gained access with the Codex. The enemy can't ignore it, but its a huge investment to be just a Distraction Carnifex. Pairing it with Dark Shroud can increase first turn survivability (it's too slow really to keep up), but that's also doubling down so to speak. For a "gun ship" the Dark Talon has done more work for me.
So, now that I've played in that GT I thought I'd share some of what happened and what I learned. I ran the list I posted above with the only change being that I swapped Ravenwing bikes for the scout ones.
My first game was against a mixed Aeldari list with a Battalion of Biel-tan units including a Farseer and Warlock on jetbikes, 3 units of Dire Avengers, a big blob of Shining Spears, and a unit of Dark Reapers. My opponent also had an Air Wing of 3 Alaitoc Crimson Hunter Exarchs and a Vanguard of Harlequins with a Shadowseer, 2 Death Jesters, a Solitaire, and a 6-model unit of Skyweavers. I ended up getting first turn, which was huge, as I was able to wipe out the Reapers and some other stuff, drop one of my Stasis Bombs on the Spears and then use that same Dark Talon to gank the Farseer. My Leviathan also fired into the Spears, but my opponent popped Lightning-Fast Reactions and thus I didn't kill very many. My snipers also did quite a bit of work over the course of the game, taking out one of the Death Jesters and putting wounds on other units. I won the game by 6 points.
In game 2 I faced Chaos Daemons, with 3 big blobs of Plaguebearers, 3 20-man Pink Horror squads, a 25-man Bloodletter squad, 2 Nurgling units, a Khorne Prince with the big axe, and an assortment of other characters. My opponent put all of the Horrors and the Letters in reserve along with a Changecaster, and he got first turn, moving up the Plaguebearers surrounding the characters. On my turn, I managed to wipe one Plaguebearer unit and kill a Spoilpox Scrivener with the Eliminators. Once my opponent's reserves came in, things got pretty hairy. He kept the Letters off until turn 3, but the Horrors dropped in, killed a couple of units with their shooting and then wrapped some other stuff so that I couldn't shoot them. I foolishly charged my Land Speeder characters into one unit, killing a bunch of them in combat, but my opponent used command points to keep them from running away and thus my characters were unable to overwatch the Prince when he charged and killed Sammy and one of the Talonmasters, who used Only in Death Does Duty End to put some wounds on the Prince. I ultimately ended up losing the game by 3 points because I fell behind and couldn't catch up, despite the fact that I had killed most of my opponent's models and still had 2 planes and a few other models on the table. My Eliminators were probably my MVPs in this game, as they killed several characters by themselves.
My third game was against White Scars. Not a super optimized list and I don't remember all the details, but I got seized on and lost one of my planes, both Scout units, and one squad of Eliminators in the first turn. On my turn, I exploited a gap my opponent left and used my remaining Dark Talon to smush Kor'sarro Khan. That plane somehow survived the whole game (ending it on just one wound remaining) despite it being fired on a number of times. The game was fairly brutal with only a few models left on the table at the end. I won pretty handily (I think the margin was 12 points), but it could easily have gone either way.
Game 4 saw me facing an Imperial soup list being run by a friend of mine. He had a Knight Crusader, a Vanguard of Space Wolves including 2 Invictor Warsuits and a unit of Wulfen, and a pair of characters, and a Battalion of Astra Militarum including 3 Veteran squads in vehicles. I got seized on again and that was huge, as I had deployed fairly aggressively since in this particular ITC mission I deployed first and thus was going to go first except for that. I ended up getting beat handily, but I think if I had gone first I could have won. Sometimes that's just the way luck happens though.
Game 5 was vs. the dreaded Alaitoc flyer list, and it went about as well as you'd expect. My worst loss of the event, but I honestly did better than the last time I faced Alaitoc flyers with Dark Angels. That list is just a hard counter for us right now.
So, a 2-3 record for my Dark Angels. It could have been worse. I feel like my list did what it was supposed to do, so maybe my losses were more due to pilot error than bad units. I had fun and I was the best Dark Angels player, but I got that by default since I was the only player at the event running Dark Angels.
My takeaways after the event:
-Eliminators are cash money. I'll most likely always run 3 units in my lists. Character based lists are fairly popular with the new Marines and a fair few Daemon and GSC builds, so it's handy to be able to put pressure on them.
-Dark Talons are still a solid investment. A tad overcosted perhaps, but they put in work in every game except the last one (where they both got killed before I even got to move).
-Infiltrators are kind of hit and miss. In some games they are nice to have thanks to the 12" bubble of no deepstrikes, but that ability is useless against many lists. Probably not worth the points.
-Sammael and the Talonmasters are great, especially vs. hordes. The rerolls are handy to have, and they can do well in CC too. Always take the relic swords on the Talonmasters if possible.
-It's definitely worth making a detachment with Ravenwing into the Attack Squadron detachment, as it gives access to the second relic sword as well as the Signal the Attack stratagem, which comes in very handy if there are hit modifiers around.
-Leviathan Dreadnoughts kick total ass! Honestly given how popular they are I'm expecting a price bump in this year's Chapter Approved. Just a very good unit all around. Try not to get locked in combat though unless you have 2 CP for Intractable.
abyrn wrote: So it's been revealed that the Inquisition "Index Imperialis," in WD will contain actually usable stratagems, relics, and a new psychic tree.
AFAIK that makes the DA "Index Astartes," the only WD rules supplement released so far that did not contain matched play rules.
I am thinking about making a list based on some infiltrators (2x5), Eliminators (2x3) and Invictors (2).
But I don't want to lose the dark angels vibe.
Any ideas what would go well with these?
Aeri wrote: I am thinking about making a list based on some infiltrators (2x5), Eliminators (2x3) and Invictors (2).
But I don't want to lose the dark angels vibe.
Any ideas what would go well with these?
Your best bet would be taking plasma inceptors along with a phobos leutenant for the Target priority warlord trait. That will allow you to overcharge plasma without any risks since it give +1 to hit
Aeri wrote: I am thinking about making a list based on some infiltrators (2x5), Eliminators (2x3) and Invictors (2).
But I don't want to lose the dark angels vibe.
Any ideas what would go well with these?
If you want to keep the DA feel, definitely take something with plasma. I'll echo Timur above and recommend Inceptors with the obligatory Phobos LT.
Also, I'd go with 3 units of Eliminators. They are just so good right now, especially with character-dependent lists being very prevalent (Marines, GSC, Orks, even Chaos all use plenty of characters for buffs and psychic powers).
I played in a team tournament over the weekend with a Deathwing setup. It's going to be my go to from now on. It was 1k lists.
I brought:
Ezekiel
7 Deathwing Knights
2 Venerable Dreadnoughts with Twin Lascannons and DCCW Land Raider Crusader
Went 2 wins and 1 draw. The draw would have been another win but ran out of time. It was super resilient and I don't think anyone in their right mind would charge those dreadnoughts now.
In one game alone they killed a 3 man Thunder Wolf cav squad with Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer, a squad of Assault Terminators, a Cataphracti Captain, a 5 man Grey Hunters squad and a Las Razorback.
. My question is , if in the codex you can have at least 1 autocannon in order to kit em as 1 autocannon + 1 lascannon or the autocannon choice isn't even on codex at all? ... yeah what a bumer ehh
