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Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/04 17:44:58


Post by: axisofentropy


Dark Angels are back!

Please focus discussion here on how we can leverage our new codex. This is not a news thread; post your reactions and hot takes over here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/743764.page

I'll keep this OP updated with everything we know from the new codex, as well as competitive reviews and other commentary from the thread. First Community article here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/12/04/chapter-focus-dark-angels/

Here's all the GW reveals:And here's codex reviews:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/12/10/dark-angels-codex-review-part-1-stratagems-warlord-traits-relics-and-psychic-powers/

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/12/13/dark-angels-codex-review-part-2-dark-angels-units/

Some points costs changes from Index to Codex:
Spoiler:
Dark Talon down 40 points (but Hurricane bolters up a bit so net -28 or -15%)

Ezekiel down 10 points.
Asmodai down 15 points or 10% (from good to incredible)
Other named characters unchanged.

Ravenwing Bikes and Landspeeders now cost the same as their Space Marine counterparts so they no longer pay for Jink. Bikes are down 22% from Index, Land Speeders down 18%.

Ravenwing Ancient and Apothecary both down 5 points.

Ravenwing Black Knights down 4 points per model, or 8%.

All the Primaris and other Space Marine points cost changes from their codex and Chapter Approved 2017 are the same in the Dark Angels Codex, of course.

Rules changes:
Spoiler:
Jink is now 4++ (big improvement over 5++)

Azreal's 4++ aura now affects only Infantry and Bikers.

Sammeal on Sableclaw now protected by Character keyword.

Black Knights and all Deathwing units gained Combat Squad ability.

Black Knights gain Inner Circle (Fearless).

Dark Angels Chapter Ancient has slightly better banner than basic Space Marines; the last gasp attacks are 2+ WS/BS.


Community Articles:
Spoiler:
Aeri wrote:
I began a unit rating for myself, but might aswell post it to open the discussion.
I didn't rate every unit, because I just dont have all of them and therefore dont care.

HQ:

Azrael: A+ [No explanation needed I guess. Great to keep Devs/Hellblasters alive]
Asmodai: A- [Great DWK Force Multiplier, but no Teleport Strike. Relies on riding a Landraider with a unit of DWK. Also works great with Company Veterans geared for melee.]
Sammael: A+ [Swift and deadly. Great Support for Black Knights and other Ravenwing units aswell. Can assault flyers with his S8 sword making him super versatile.]
Belial: B [Great Deathwing Multiplier and Combat beast, but suffers from the same problem every melee buff character has - he might not make the charge to support his unit.]
Interrogator Chaplain: C+ [Very expensive compared to a chaplain. The extra -1 to morale is rarely worth it. Pick a chaplain or Asmodai instead.]
Chaplain: B- [Good Melee Buff. When used in Terminator Armour to deep strike with terminators you have a high chance of him not making the charge and therefore not beeing able to buff the charging units. Works great in a transport though.]
Librarians C [Don't like our Powers, so librarians mostly don't see the board anymore.]

Troops:

Scouts: A- [Cheap and very versatile troop choice. Great to take objectives early on and harass/charge shooty units.]
Tactical Squad: B [The same solid troop choice as ever. Sturdy, can take many different weapons and are very flexible. Kind of expensive though, since our best units are super pricey. Need a Razorback or Rhino for best effectiveness or are doomed as a backline place and forget unit.]

Elite:

Deathwing Knights: A- [Pure deadlyness. Even better with Asmodai and a Deahwing Ancient. May get stuck if your Landraider blows early though. Darkshroud helps a lot to prevent this.]
Deathwing Terminators: C [Price and outshined in melee by DWK. For shooting there are better choices. Great to harass a backfield unit though and soak up enemy fire. If left alone they can hurt quite badly, so the enemy HAS to deal with them.]
Dreadnoughts: B+ [As Rifledreads a very solid choice, specially with our new reroll 1s. No degrading aswell. I prefer 2 with Twin Las/Twin Autocannon in my force.]
Venerable Dreadnoughts: A [Very potent backfield heavy weapon plattforms. BS2+ and reroll 1s almost guarantees hits. And they come with a 6+ FNP for extra toughness. worth the 20P upgrade!]

Fast Attack:
Black Knights: A [Some of our best units. Deadly. Fast. Reliable. With Weapons of the Dark Age also super deadly. 6 can kill a Monolith in 1 shooting phase. They are also small enough to evade enemy fire if placed carefully. In melee they are "ok". Not as great as they used to be, but can still pack a punch with sammy and/or an ancient. Very expensive though.]
Ravenwing Bikes C- [Very expensive for what they bring to the field. Mediocre in melee, mediocre in shooting. I see little reason to field these guys.]
Darkshroud A [Great defensive tool. Let it protect the backfield, your transports or your bikes. It makes your units a lot tougher for very little points. Don't bother with weapon upgrades, it's not there to shoot stuff.]
Land Speeders B- [Very expensive, but versatile. Best used stationary because of their heavy weapons, and this is exactly where they are outshined by Dreadnoughts.]

Heavy Support:
Devastators B+ [Superb Heavy hitters for your backline. With rerolls to 1s and our Plasma Stratagem they can really hurt stuff for reasonable points. Add Azrael or other buff units to make them even better. Might die quite easily though, since the unit is just 5 Marines.]
Predators A- [Tough and can hurt a lot. Best used with Predator Auto Cannon and Las Cannon sponsons. Other than Ven Dreads they lose BS when taking damage, making them less effective the longer the battle lasts.]
Landspeeder Vengeance D [Nopes. Just don't]
Land Raider Redeemer A- [Love this thing with DWK in it. The flamers are also great to kill flyers and other hard to hit stuff. Creates a nice threat bubble, but is kinda slow. Also can leave combat due to our new stratagem, eliminating one of the greatest weaknesses of landraiders. But who would want to charge this thing anyways?]
Land Raider Crusader B+ [Greater transport capacity, but less dmg output. IMHO the Darkshroud is better to take the anti horde role.]

Flyers:
Nephilim Jetfighter: B+ [Great damage output and survivability. Can get kinda expensive though. Still a solid choice.]
Dark Talon: A- [One of our best anti horde tools. Cheap, tough and reliable. BF2+ hurricane bolters can get stuff done. The rift canon is a great addition to take on heavier targets. The stasis bomb is a 1 time gimmick - a good one.]



Spoiler:
Breng77 wrote:

So here are my ratings for what I have played

HQ
Sammael in sable claw - A+ Great in shooting, super mobile hands out some good buffs. Great in the assault, especially on the charge. If you are not running a gunline he is out best HQ Also very durable between T6 7 wounds and character protections. Combos well with scouts.
Talonmaster - B+ provides good buffs, if he takes the Heavenfall blade relic he is good in combat, good in shooting but really needs Sammi (or some other Master) for re-rolls due to hitting on a 4+ most of the time. If you are only taking 1 landspeeder HQ take sammi he is worth the extra points.
Master - B good all around, usually used with a Jump pack for the re-rolls 1 to hit buff. Consider if bringing inceptors.
Lieutenant - B good all around, usually used with a Jump pack for the re-rolls 1 buff. Consider if bringing inceptors, Master is more important though. A good cheap inclusion in an Azzy gunline though.
Azreal - A+ he is not an auto include, but will make most gunline builds. If you are bringing Helblasters he is going to come along.

Troops
Scouts - A - Best troop in the book and it isn't close. The provide alpha strike protection, can claim midfield objectives, and with the CA character rules change are a good pick for denying shooting targeting your Landspeeder borne HQ choices
Tacticals - C- - I really don't see why you would take them over scouts, but they are not terrible. I guess plasma + combi-plasma in a Razorback is an ok load out. I don't think any other build is worth bothering.
Intercessors - B - They are ok, they don't benefit as much from out tactics as other units or in other factions. They are not a bad pick, but with a lot of our other stuff being pricey it can be hard to fit in expensive troops as well.

Elites
DW terminators - C- So so, the DWA stratagem is too many CP, and you won't have many if you run a big terminator squad to take advantage of it. Terminators are just not that great this edition, and they don't really fill a role in most DA builds.

Fast Attack
RW black knights - C+ Not a big fan here, they are ok, but I think they are too expensive for their durability and we have other good plasma units. They are an obvious target for most players. I do think if you use them it is go big or go home. 3 man squads are bad when compared to plasma bikers.
RW bikes - B+ - good all around unit, brings a lot of shooting on a fast platform, bolters + plasma makes them dangerous to many different types of units.
Scout bikes - B+ - among the best units for anti-infantry, super fast, tons of shooting, can do mortal wounds when they fall back out of combat. Most people underestimate them, but I think that won't last. If they were RW they would be an A+ unit. Honestly if you want to take them doing it by allying in marines is the way to go. I've run them both as DA and White Scars and doing white scars lets you double up on Advance + shoot + charge stratagems to jump on your opponent.
Inceptors - A+ - with plasma they are the best target we have for WOTDA, expect them to die, but they will kill something on the drop (sometimes more than 1 thing.)

Heavy Support
Helblasters - A - effective with Azreal, but I honestly think they work better in other chapters to some extent, they want to be at half range to get the most of their shooting, and are not all that fast. They are great, but not my favorite in the codex.



 axisofentropy wrote:

HQ: Azreal will be Warlord of nearly every Dark Angel army. Sammeal, Belial, Asmodai, Talonmaster, and a Jump Pack Master fill out the remaining HQ slots to support the rest of your army.

Troops: Scouts. Some with heavy weapons for mortal wound stratagems.

Elites: For now, the Company Champion's Blade of Caliban costs 0. Abuse this until it changes but don't spend money on it. Aggressors with boltstorms pair well with Azreal. Deathwing Ancient belongs in every Deathwing army.

Fast Attack: This is the good stuff. Plasma Inceptors and Black Knights can anchor an alpha-strike army. Darkshroud provides powerful defense if you need to play for all 6 turns.

Heavy Support: Plasma Cannon Devastators love Grim Resolve. Hellblasters pair well with Azreal.

Flyer: Dark Talon is great. Stormraven recently got more expensive but Fire Raptors got cheaper. Both require support to succeed.

Dedicated Transport: These don't really help Dark Angels.


The old Index tactics thread is here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/727176.page


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/04 17:51:25


Post by: Iago40k


fluffy and pretty solid. Some Black Knights with more damage on Plasma? delicious.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/04 17:57:52


Post by: raverrn


Dark Angels Hellblasters are going to be terrifying, Re-rolls of 1 AND 3 damage on overcharge? Christ.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/04 18:08:37


Post by: axisofentropy


 raverrn wrote:
Dark Angels Hellblasters are going to be terrifying, Re-rolls of 1 AND 3 damage on overcharge? Christ.
yeah I've just ordered some more.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/04 18:23:49


Post by: Eihnlazer


Yeah that plasma strat, while fluffy, is horrendously overpowered for 1 CP. should have been 2CP or overhead on a 2 or less.

Plasma was already kinda too strong.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/04 18:50:49


Post by: Galas


I'm sad Grim Resolve is useless for Ravenwing and nearly useless for Deathwing.

But ey. With all this powerfull stratagems we are gonna want to have max-sized squads, of hellblasters for example. So the native "Commisar" bonus is actually pretty usefull.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/04 19:08:45


Post by: Vector Strike


These Talonmaster are quite a deal! Re-roll 1s to wound AND remove cover?

I won't even miss my Tau


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/04 23:30:52


Post by: bobafett012


 Galas wrote:
I'm sad Grim Resolve is useless for Ravenwing and nearly useless for Deathwing.

But ey. With all this powerfull stratagems we are gonna want to have max-sized squads, of hellblasters for example. So the native "Commisar" bonus is actually pretty usefull.


Yeah i'm disappointed with what we've seen so far. From a CT that doesn't do anything for 2/3rds of the army, and possibly nerfs DW, to a terrible relic, and warlord trait, to multiple fluffy strategems and only a couple decent ones.

Hopefully there's a full Deathwing faction focus that actually has some stuff to help DW out.



Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 00:00:13


Post by: Maelstrom808


I'm going to hazard a guess and say the the inner circle morale immunity may be going away.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 00:16:22


Post by: JohnMarik


 Maelstrom808 wrote:
I'm going to hazard a guess and say the the inner circle morale immunity may be going away.


Ya. Either that or GW completely forgot that DW Termies are immune to morale currently. Which I could definitely see happen.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 03:00:29


Post by: Zustiur


On the one hand, Grim Resolve encourages us to stay static. On the other hand, it frees up our Company Masters to move about the battlefield and contribute up front instead of sitting back with the lascannons. I'm happy with that.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 03:02:28


Post by: Galas


Grim Resolve is a pure Greenwing buff. It enfatizes for them to be the anvil, with Ravenwing and Deathwing acting like the hammer.

And the morale buff helps. With those powerfull stratagems we will want big units, like 10 hellblasters, etc...


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 03:56:56


Post by: ZergSmasher


What kind of loadout would be best on a unit of Tartaros terminators? Lightning Claws for everyone? Combibolters and fists? Some combination of the two? Also on the unit sarge, is it worth taking the plasma blaster or volkite charger? I'm thinking the plasma one could be useful with the super plasma stratagem, but then again it is one weapon and the stratagem is better on a unit with lots of plasma, such as Hellblasters or the suddenly viable Plasma Cannon Devastators.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 04:12:27


Post by: axisofentropy


Yeah at first glance Plasma cannon devastators are the big winners of what we've seen so far.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 04:24:16


Post by: axisofentropy


Plasma spotted in Forgeworld index.

[Thumb - Screenshot_20171204-221634~2.png]


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 04:43:55


Post by: bobafett012


 ZergSmasher wrote:
What kind of loadout would be best on a unit of Tartaros terminators? Lightning Claws for everyone? Combibolters and fists? Some combination of the two? Also on the unit sarge, is it worth taking the plasma blaster or volkite charger? I'm thinking the plasma one could be useful with the super plasma stratagem, but then again it is one weapon and the stratagem is better on a unit with lots of plasma, such as Hellblasters or the suddenly viable Plasma Cannon Devastators.


I can't see taking a squad of LC tartaros terms when you can take Knights instead. yeah they are more expensive but they are just hands down better in every way with a single inch less movement and a strategem that makes them dead hard to kill. I could maybe see running 4 combi-plasmas with a plasma blaster and power fists to take advantage of the strategem but even then, that clocks in around 267 points. I'd rather just have regular tactical terminators with 4 shot storm bolters and an assault cannon for 212 points or a cyclone for 242 points.



Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 04:53:39


Post by: ZergSmasher


bobafett012 wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
What kind of loadout would be best on a unit of Tartaros terminators? Lightning Claws for everyone? Combibolters and fists? Some combination of the two? Also on the unit sarge, is it worth taking the plasma blaster or volkite charger? I'm thinking the plasma one could be useful with the super plasma stratagem, but then again it is one weapon and the stratagem is better on a unit with lots of plasma, such as Hellblasters or the suddenly viable Plasma Cannon Devastators.


I can't see taking a squad of LC tartaros terms when you can take Knights instead. yeah they are more expensive but they are just hands down better in every way with a single inch less movement and a strategem that makes them dead hard to kill. I could maybe see running 4 combi-plasmas with a plasma blaster and power fists to take advantage of the strategem but even then, that clocks in around 267 points. I'd rather just have regular tactical terminators with 4 shot storm bolters and an assault cannon for 212 points or a cyclone for 242 points.


I don't think they can take any combi-plasmas at all. I think the closest equivalent to a standard tactical terminator squad would be 4 power fists/chainfists and a power sword on the sarge, and 4 combibolters and a reaper autocannon (closest equivalent of the assault cannon) on one guy. I think that clocks in at 210 points or so. They aren't much different from regular termies except for the wargear options. Maybe grenade harnesses on at least a couple of guys could increase their firepower enough to be worth taking.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 05:04:12


Post by: bobafett012


Oh i thought combi-bolters were combi-weapons. Now they have even less appeal to me. I don't think their weapon options are very good at all. They only have reapers and heavy flamers for heavy weapon options. Heavy flamers are terrible and assault cannons are better than reapers. Then of course regular terms have even more heavy weapon options. Give me Assault cannons, cyclones, and my storm bolters!


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 05:54:31


Post by: ZergSmasher


I mainly asked because I happen to have some unbuilt Tartaros models, not because I think they are super competitive or anything. I just wanted to give them the most optimum loadout possible. I'm still not sold on Terminators in general this edition. Yes, they are better now than they have been in a very long time, but that's not saying that much.

For sake of argument, let's look at the two squads side by side (standard squad with 4x Storm Bolter, Assault Cannon, 4x Powerfist, Sword on Champ vs. Tartaros squad with 4x Combi-bolter, Reaper Autocannon, 4x Powerfist, Sword on Champ). They cost about the same, with the Tartaros guys being slightly cheaper due to the Reaper costing less than the assault cannon. The Tartaros guys have better movement speed, but probably not enough to make a difference, and the two guns have their pros and cons, although most will definitely favor the assault cannon. Storm Bolters and Combi-bolters are the exact same gun in 8th, so no difference there. The real difference between the squads is their other options. Both can have guys swap their weapons out for a pair of Lightning Claws, but as we've covered Deathwing Knights trump all other melee Terminators. Either squad can take chainfists, so no difference there. Either squad can take a Heavy Flamer, but the regular ones can take a Plasma Cannon or a Cyclone Launcher (expensive!) instead. Tartaros termies can take a grenade harness that doesn't replace other weapons (so can have a heavy plus the grenades), and their Sarge can take a better gun (for more points of course). I'm inclined to feel that the two units are actually pretty close in terms of effectiveness. To me, the Cyclone launcher is a trap, since it will almost always be firing at -1 BS as teleporting in counts as moving and I can't imagine standing still with them will necessarily be an option. It's too expensive to be only getting one Krak hit per turn. Yes, the other heavy weapons are also going to almost always be hitting on 4's as well, but they are cheaper and get more shots.

I think regular Termies have the edge when teleporting in, but Tartaros, due to the slightly faster movement, are better out of a Land Raider, plus the Reaper cannon has a longer range than the Assault cannon so if the Land Raider goes boom they won't be out of range.

I don't know enough about Cataphractii termies and their options to be able to compare them, but I think it's cool that we now have the option of fielding these different types of units. Plus we now get Contemptor Dreads!


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 06:33:50


Post by: bobafett012


I don't disagree that they are close. I like the look of the DW terms a lot more personally.

I run a almost pure DW army so most of my terms sit near Belial making them even better.

I too feel the cyclone is over priced, but I do like to run 1 because I generally have a unit of terms I can't DS in because of the DS rules, and so the cyclone fits that bill nicely as a dual shot back field missile launcher.

The rest of the term DS in with Belial all having assault cannons and storm bolters re-rolling hits. It's a pretty decent alpha strike usually.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 08:28:31


Post by: saint_red


Why is everybody hating on the relic? Taken with Huntsman WT and using the plasma stratagem you can double tap characters to death from 18" away meaning no screen unit will protect them. Chapter masters, psykers and buff characters of all sorts will be in trouble (Changeling anybody?). It's not an autotake but if you build for it then it will do work.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 15:02:42


Post by: ILegion


I have 10 hellblasters from Dark Imperium that will likely be built and painted soon to chill with Azzy. Assuming he keeps his 4++ bubble. I know they nerfed the one BA can cast to a 5++ so I wouldn't be surprised if that is changed as well.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 16:51:52


Post by: MilkmanAl


Im trying to think of a way to take full advantage of the plasma strat. Hellblasters are sort of an obvious choice, but they're so expensive! Theyre pretty fragile, too. Unfortunately, deredeo dreads are really the only other unit with a weapon potentially worthy of a command point per round, in my opinion. If they could pod in, it might be fun to back up a couple units of Terminators as they dropped. I guess they'd be decent as part of Azrael's parking lot? Meh. Not convinced that's an improvement over a dual twin lascannon mortis dread.

Edit: I somehow missed the previous posts about plasma. I like the devastators idea a lot with Azrael support. That's pretty nifty, and you get some extra meat shields to keep your plasma from dropping out too fast.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 16:57:46


Post by: axisofentropy


MilkmanAl wrote:
Im trying to think of a way to take full advantage of the plasma strat.
Probably devastators with 4 plasma cannons. To make this reliable I'd want two squads, each with a few extra bolter dudes for ablative Wounds.



Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 17:34:52


Post by: bullyboy


Definitely have the plasma cannons ready to go, but will likely pick up Hellblasters too.

I built my RW Lt last night so he is ready to roll when codex drops (well, after I paint him that is). Looking to see how else I can make my RW work.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 18:43:39


Post by: Grizzyzz


MilkmanAl wrote:
Im trying to think of a way to take full advantage of the plasma strat. Hellblasters are sort of an obvious choice, but they're so expensive! Theyre pretty fragile, too. Unfortunately, deredeo dreads are really the only other unit with a weapon potentially worthy of a command point per round, in my opinion. If they could pod in, it might be fun to back up a couple units of Terminators as they dropped. I guess they'd be decent as part of Azrael's parking lot? Meh. Not convinced that's an improvement over a dual twin lascannon mortis dread.

Edit: I somehow missed the previous posts about plasma. I like the devastators idea a lot with Azrael support. That's pretty nifty, and you get some extra meat shields to keep your plasma from dropping out too fast.



Are people not thinking Black Knights as a good source for this? They are a little pricey right now, but I expect the cost to drop slightly on these guys. Even still.. squad of 5 or 6 black knights is 12 plasma shots... then you have stacks from Samm and Lts. for reroll hits and wounds.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 19:33:10


Post by: bobafett012


 Grizzyzz wrote:
MilkmanAl wrote:
Im trying to think of a way to take full advantage of the plasma strat. Hellblasters are sort of an obvious choice, but they're so expensive! Theyre pretty fragile, too. Unfortunately, deredeo dreads are really the only other unit with a weapon potentially worthy of a command point per round, in my opinion. If they could pod in, it might be fun to back up a couple units of Terminators as they dropped. I guess they'd be decent as part of Azrael's parking lot? Meh. Not convinced that's an improvement over a dual twin lascannon mortis dread.

Edit: I somehow missed the previous posts about plasma. I like the devastators idea a lot with Azrael support. That's pretty nifty, and you get some extra meat shields to keep your plasma from dropping out too fast.



Are people not thinking Black Knights as a good source for this? They are a little pricey right now, but I expect the cost to drop slightly on these guys. Even still.. squad of 5 or 6 black knights is 12 plasma shots... then you have stacks from Samm and Lts. for reroll hits and wounds.


It's not just the strategem, but Grim resolve as well. That's what allows your re-rolls of 1's. The problem is, it's only when stationary. This is why everyone is saying that the CT is essentially worthless for DW and RW. Ravenwing units move every turn, and at least my DW units do as well.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 19:35:18


Post by: ILegion


Does the variable amount of shots for plasma devs not put anyone off from using them over hellblasters?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 19:39:55


Post by: axisofentropy


 ILegion wrote:
Does the variable amount of shots for plasma devs not put anyone off from using them over hellblasters?
No. Plasma cannon's D3 shots is 21 points. The Heavy Plasma Incinerator is only 1 shot for 17 points (should be cheaper) tho it does have +1 strength and -1 AP.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 19:58:36


Post by: LuisPabloJones


Sammael in corvex, with the warlord trait and the plasma stratagem.
He can deal 9 wounds to a character at 36''!!!!
He is the best sniper of the empire!!


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 20:14:12


Post by: Vector Strike


LuisPabloJones wrote:
Sammael in corvex, with the warlord trait and the plasma stratagem.
He can deal 9 wounds to a character at 36''!!!!
He is the best sniper of the empire!!


I sposse Sammael will get a fixed WT


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 21:04:36


Post by: MilkmanAl


I think I could get behind some plasma devs. I don't feel like that's a huge improvement over twin lascannon Mortis dreads, but it's a nice gimmick to blow some command points on, if you've got them. You'll probably have able to take down something big in a round of shooting, at least.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 21:16:04


Post by: ILegion


 axisofentropy wrote:
 ILegion wrote:
Does the variable amount of shots for plasma devs not put anyone off from using them over hellblasters?
No. Plasma cannon's D3 shots is 21 points. The Heavy Plasma Incinerator is only 1 shot for 17 points (should be cheaper) tho it does have +1 strength and -1 AP.


Damn. I don't have enough plasma cannons.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 21:27:22


Post by: bobafett012


LuisPabloJones wrote:
Sammael in corvex, with the warlord trait and the plasma stratagem.
He can deal 9 wounds to a character at 36''!!!!
He is the best sniper of the empire!!


Even IF Sammael actually has that warlord trait, which you don't get to pick it, any character with that many wounds has some sort of invul save. That warlord trait is not very good at all imo.

I'm betting Azreal has the brilliant strategist WT. Belial usually has some terrible hunt the warlord trait, so maybe he'll have it to use with his storm bolter. :(


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 21:55:30


Post by: bullyboy


Plus it does not allow his cannon to use it, just the stormbolters. Combi melta seems like a good option, but on which character.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/05 22:51:41


Post by: Aaranis


Hi guys, I might be interested in joining the Dark Angel ranks if their codex is good (and especially if GW doesn't boost AdMech somehow), but I have a few questions as I have never ever played a SM army.

What is the general playstyle of the army ? More shooty, more slashy ? Static, mobile ? I guess you can do anything considering their wide range of models, but do they have a special gimmick they do really well ? I'd be interested in building a list around heavy infantry (like Hellblasters) supporting assault units like Terminators, while having a few Librarians to deny and support my army.

Are there units to disregard completely in the index/SM codex currently ? I know the DA codex might change some stuff, but for now what do you feel should get a change ? I'm not looking to play the most optimised lists for tournaments, but my meta has shifted into pretty brutal army compositions lately and I'd like to play a fluffy but strong list. What's the differences between regular Terminators and Deathwing, is their price difference worth it (I guess they have different prices) ? Also, I heavily dislike Fliers so I hope I won't handicap myself if I don't pick some. Talking about big stuff like Stormravens, not Land Speeders, which are fine.

How have you been faring with your Dark Angels armies now that 8th edition is well established ?

Thanks in advance !


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/06 01:05:27


Post by: Vector Strike


Dark Angels are way more shooty than choppy; Deathwing Knights makes most of DA melee power, while there are some good melee characters (Sammael, Interrogator-Chaplain). With Grim Resolve, it certainly makes one wonder if not going ranged-focused with DA would be a good move...

DA has 3 big things going for them: Greenwing (normal marines, pretty static normally or going in transports for speed), Ravenwing (bikes and planes, mobile is their game!) and Deathwing (deep strike and land raiders). So you can focus on RAvenwing to get a more mobile army, Greenwing to get gunlines or Deathwing to be precise on your killing. I'd wager having at least 2 of those ways are the best (Ravenwing + Deathwing is pretty popular).

Their special gimmick is having more plasma than any other army in the game (well, perhaps Tau can rival them with a heavy-suit list). Also, having the coolest marine models!
Models to disregard... I think everything is useable, but Asmodai and normal Terminators are generally not really used.

DA, for now, can't even use Stormravens, so no big deal. Nephelim Jetfighter and Dark Talon, DA's exclusive fliers, are somewhat good, but you don't really need them.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/06 01:28:42


Post by: COLD CASH


What about redemptor plasma? Im a wolf player and dont have/use it?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/06 03:42:12


Post by: Swillsswil


bobafett012 wrote:
LuisPabloJones wrote:
Sammael in corvex, with the warlord trait and the plasma stratagem.
He can deal 9 wounds to a character at 36''!!!!
He is the best sniper of the empire!!


Even IF Sammael actually has that warlord trait, which you don't get to pick it, any character with that many wounds has some sort of invul save. That warlord trait is not very good at all imo.

I'm betting Azreal has the brilliant strategist WT. Belial usually has some terrible hunt the warlord trait, so maybe he'll have it to use with his storm bolter. :(


Warlorld trait doesn't allow sniping with heavy weapons. So no heavy plasma sniping with Sammy. I double checked after thinking about a Chap Dreadnought sniping with twin lascannons.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/06 06:26:17


Post by: axisofentropy


Asmodai belongs in every Land Raider


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/07 01:24:02


Post by: ZergSmasher


 ILegion wrote:
 axisofentropy wrote:
 ILegion wrote:
Does the variable amount of shots for plasma devs not put anyone off from using them over hellblasters?
No. Plasma cannon's D3 shots is 21 points. The Heavy Plasma Incinerator is only 1 shot for 17 points (should be cheaper) tho it does have +1 strength and -1 AP.


Damn. I don't have enough plasma cannons.

I've got the cannons as leftover parts from building a couple of Devastator squads. What I need are more marine bodies to carry them (just the legs actually, I've got torsos and stuff to spare). Technically I could use some leftover kneeling legs, but I don't think that would look very good on Plasma Cannons.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 00:36:18


Post by: MilkmanAl


How do you guys feel about using cataphractii orntartaros terminators over our standard terminators and/or knights? More thoughts later when I'm not chasing an infant, but both the new options seem inferior to what we already have. I'm just checking to see if I'm missing some obvious big selling point.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 01:11:53


Post by: bobafett012


there is absolutely no comparison between either suit's CC variants VS Knights. They are far superior in their role than either suit in CC.

As for regular Terminators vs the 2 suit varieties. there's not a ton of difference. Stat wise, one suit has 1 better invul but only moves 4", the other moves 6" but has the same 5+ invul as the regular suits. The new suits can take some plasma weapon on the sgt, but they are limited to 2 different types of heavy weapons, one being the heavy flamer which isn't very good, other being the reaper auto cannon. I personally like Assault cannons, and cyclones much better than those, plus I like the aesthetic better as well so it's a very easy choice for me.


Also, first review video up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtHn4VQIs9M


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 02:17:26


Post by: ZergSmasher


MilkmanAl wrote:
How do you guys feel about using cataphractii orntartaros terminators over our standard terminators and/or knights? More thoughts later when I'm not chasing an infant, but both the new options seem inferior to what we already have. I'm just checking to see if I'm missing some obvious big selling point.

I'm already thinking of running 4 squads of DW in my list, 1 of Knights and 3 shooty ones, together with Belial. One of the shooty squads will be Tartaros as that's what I have model-wise. I'm going to give the Sarge the plasma blaster for some good armor penetration that combos well with Belial's rerolls. I'll probably keep the Knights in a Land Raider, as it'll help balance out the list as far as who is in reserves, plus Knights don't do so well if they fail their 9" charge out of DS (way too easy to just kite them, found that out the hard way once). With the price drops on power fists and Terminators in general, it'll be easier to take multiple DW squads, or larger ones if that floats your boat.

I think bobafett012 is right about Assault Cannons being better than the Reaper Autocannon, though. Reapers do have a couple of (admittedly small) advantages to try to balance out the disadvantages, though, namely longer range and slightly lower price. The range won't matter on a teleporting unit, and the price difference is very small (4 points IIRC), so AssCans are better since they have more shots.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 02:22:22


Post by: MilkmanAl


Well, I didn't get back to my original post as quickly as I thought I might, and you guys have basically echoed my thoughts exactly. Plasma on the sarge is really the only thing that'd make me consider Tartaros at all. The extra movement is negligible, and the weapons are otherwise inferior, overall. Cataphractii are basically just inferior to knights, and I'd much rather have the other heavy weapons over a heavy flamer, if that's your gig. Glad I wasn't missing something!


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 05:12:22


Post by: ZergSmasher


So, I just saw the review that guy put on YouTube, and I'm having good feelings about Dark Angels now. Only downside is I don't have some of the models that we now have access to, like Stormravens. Not a great example as Stormravens are a pale shadow of what they once were thanks to CA increasing their cost.

With the stratagem to let units fall back and shoot, maybe Land Raiders could be good. Opposing hordes are no longer safe just by having an Ork Boy/Termagant/Genestealer/other gribbly tag a fender on the Crusader. Of course, I'm wanting to try out the Repulsor, so it won't even need the strat, but it's there. Still, Land Raiders make a good delivery platform for the still-excellent Deathwing Knights, as in a Crusader you can put a unit of 5 of those guys, plus Asmodai and a Deathwing Ancient for perhaps one of the nastiest melee units in the game. Khorne Berzerkers got nothin' on these guys. With the buff from both the Ancient and Asmodai, the Maces are rocking 4 attacks apiece, with rerolls to hit. If a Lieutenant accompanies them as well, they are rerolling 1's to wound, so even big things like Shadowswords or Imperial Knights are in trouble. Hordes don't have it any easier vs. all this, as the Knight Master gets 5 swings whose damage carries over. Now I know this is expensive (300+ for the vehicle, plus around 500 for the guys), so it won't be practical in a lot of lists, but I'm already thinking about trying it just for the lolz.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 09:01:12


Post by: Aaranis


Definitely considering switching to Dark Angels from my AdMech now. I'll have a look at the codex on wednesday if everything goes fine. What are your best Troops choices when building a DA army ? I guess Scouts are the most efficient ? Given they'll be the only ones with ObSec, should I make sure they don't get slaughtered easily via their loadout or a specific tactic/transport ? Shotguns don't look like they're worth it, and Sniper rifles won't get them near an objective. Or I could use Snipers to camp objectives my side of the board, and just try to annihilate whatever guards the other objectives with my DW and Hellblasters.

Thinkin of running 2-3 Librarians (maybe one in Terminator armour), Deathwing Knights, 10 Hellblasters, a few Scout squads to fill up Troops tax, some RW bikes to have a fast, mobile threat. What's the consensus about Land Speeders ? Having Fly might be nice to have. Also, should I run any vehicles ? I mean Rhinos, Predators, Razorbacks and the likes ? I don't like their models that much, maybe the Predator is the less ugly of them. Not really a fan of the original Dreadnoughts neither. I feel like there's nothing a vehicle can accomplish that a specialised infantry unit cannot. Maybe just the range of the Lascannons ? Hellblasters have a decent range.

EDIT: Also, I plan on painting them as a successor chapter, but not sure if I should include any of the named characters given that. Do I pretend that DW guy is just as equally powerful as Belial or it would be too weird using named characters rules for a successor chapter ?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 10:14:17


Post by: Eihnlazer


If taking scouts, either go all snipers and backfield camp, or go chainswords/pistol and infiltrate midfield to slow down the enemy advance.

If taking snipers, take a midrange durable force for the rest of your army.

If melee scouts, take a gunline DA force.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 10:24:24


Post by: Maelstrom808


 Aaranis wrote:

EDIT: Also, I plan on painting them as a successor chapter, but not sure if I should include any of the named characters given that. Do I pretend that DW guy is just as equally powerful as Belial or it would be too weird using named characters rules for a successor chapter ?


Well, considering it's impossible to run a generic Chapter Master of a successor chapter, and you basically have to use Azzy as a stand in, I don't think anyone is going to bat an eye at using Belial or Sammael as your DW or RW Company Masters.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 11:23:04


Post by: axisofentropy


 Aaranis wrote:
Definitely considering switching to Dark Angels from my AdMech now.
I plan to play half AdMech and half Dark Angels, at least sometimes. Robots in the back, Ravenwing and/or Deathwing up front.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 11:48:51


Post by: Galas


 Maelstrom808 wrote:
 Aaranis wrote:

EDIT: Also, I plan on painting them as a successor chapter, but not sure if I should include any of the named characters given that. Do I pretend that DW guy is just as equally powerful as Belial or it would be too weird using named characters rules for a successor chapter ?


Well, considering it's impossible to run a generic Chapter Master of a successor chapter, and you basically have to use Azzy as a stand in, I don't think anyone is going to bat an eye at using Belial or Sammael as your DW or RW Company Masters.


Yeah, when I run sucessors chapters I don't change the chapter keyword for the one of my successor. That dissallow me from using special character without receiving anything in exchange. So I just use the parent chapter rules but I say they are my custom chapter.

I have a small Ravenguard Successor force where I use ultramarine rules so I can run Telion as the Scout HQ leader of my forces.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 13:10:36


Post by: Zustiur


 bullyboy wrote:
Plus it does not allow his cannon to use it, just the stormbolters. Combi melta seems like a good option, but on which character.

Damn, I thought I was the first person to notice that. You beat me by a few hours. The answer to your question is Company Masters, because of the 2+ to hit.


I've begun a detailed tactica review of the book and I don't even have it yet. I've spent most of the time with the index having glazed eyes because of our units being scattered. When I get the codex I'll go through all the units carefully to identify all the synergistic options I've been missing so far.

Here's a snippet of my work in progress:
Huntsman
This is a clever little option, and may quickly become my favourite. At least, when using Company Masters and their 2+ BS.
Pistols, assault, rapid fire, grenades. Of these categories, there are obviously better and worse weapons to pick for utilising the sniper part of the rule. Specifically;
Pistols: Plasma and grav are the obvious choices. Neither is really 'good' for this trait however. Grav would be my choice, but then you're only doing 1 damage. I feel overcharging plasma is just too risky on my warlord. Yes, it's generally going to be a 1 in 36 chance of failing, but SLAIN is too much to risk unless you're on your last wound anyway or are otherwise doomed in your opponent's next turn.
Assault: Sniping with a combi flamer might make for a good laugh, and may have the added bonus of making your opponent's brain implode as they imagine how that even works. Combi-Melta on the other hand is WHERE IT'S AT. Sniping with a meltagun folks. Just think about that for a moment. Wounding most characters on 2s. AP-4.
Rapid Fire: Storm bolters aren't a terrible choice for this, but aren't all that exciting either. Combi grav makes for the best option if you want to fire the bolter component as well. Combi plasma will again tempt you to risk SLAIN on your Warlord and give your opponent a free VP. Bolters by themselves aren't impressive here, even when they are master crafted or are bolt rifles. The winner in this category has to be Foe Smiter.
Grenades: If only we could have melta bombs on HQ these days???????Need to check this??????????. But then, if you're within 4", or even 6", you're probably able to target the character anyway.

The assault component is also interesting, and it really shines for Belial with his blade Silence. I've yet to see how often piling in and consolidating towards a character will be useful, but it definitely has potential.

To take full advantage of this, I strongly suggest a dedicated Character killing HQ. Jump Pack or Terminator Armour (as you see fit) to get the Deep Strike. I prefer the jump pack, as you can drop behind LOS blocking cover and charge the following turn for a guaranteed charge after moving 12" and ignoring terrain. Protecting your warlord is important. Leaving him stranded after a failed 9 or more inch charge is on my 'never do' list. Take a Combi-melta, for that 35/36 * 5/6 * chance of failing invulnerable save. Against characters with no 2+ armour and no invulnerable, you've got an 81% chance of dealing D6 wounds. Throw in a relic blade or Relic such as the Heavenfall blade. If you don't kill them with the gun, jump over their screen on the charge and cut them down. Force weapons may not be a bad option here too.




Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 13:39:36


Post by: axisofentropy


Sammeal has the Maneuver Warlord Trait fixed so he can't take Huntsman but does allow re-rolling advance and charge rolls within 6". This is pretty clearly one of the best two Warlord Traits next to Azreal's fixed Brilliant Strategist.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 13:46:12


Post by: Spoletta


As i said in another thread, my reading on the Dark Angels is that they are the first army designed to make the most out of combined arms.

Theyr main power comes from stratagems (fitting the DA theme nicely), which is a double edged sword. On one hand it means that you cannot spam the most efficent unit and be done with it, since only one of those units will be good, on the other hand it means that that single unit will be worth much more that what it's price tag says.

Ravenwing is made really strong by Speed of the Raven, and just one plasma unit can carry a lot of load thanks to Weapon of the Dark Age.

This means that an assault DA list full DW will not be competitive, neither will a full RW or full shooty greenwing. Instead, lists that make efficent use of all 3 of them will be among the hardest lists to play, but also capable of top table performance.
The DA codex is not focused on out-shooting, or out-meleeing your opponents. It is focused on outplaying (and punishing Fallens).


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 14:39:16


Post by: wuestenfux


This means that an assault DA list full DW will not be competitive, neither will a full RW or full shooty greenwing. Instead, lists that make efficent use of all 3 of them will be among the hardest lists to play, but also capable of top table performance.
The DA codex is not focused on out-shooting, or out-meleeing your opponents. It is focused on outplaying (and punishing Fallens).

Seconded.
Synergy is key when you play DA. It has always been.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 15:20:57


Post by: MilkmanAl


Right, so on that note, I play pretty much pure Deathwing. I'm considering the merits of the new Deathwing Assault strategem. I'm disappointed it doesn't let us deep strike into combat more reliably, but an extra round of shooting seems pretty useful for clearing away screening troops before Knights Drop in close to the real target.

The problem is the 2/3 CP cost. Since I have so few units, my CP are in short supply - usually 5 with the lists I've been running recently. I like the idea of dropping in a unit of 10 terminators in to clear away the nonsense surrounding a prime target. 8 stormbolters at rapid fire range and 2 assault cannons is a fair bit of firepower (kills about 18 GEQ or 7 MEQ), but is that worth 3 CP? I run a couple units of Knights, so I intend to be shield walling a fair bit. Obviously that ability will be in short supply after spending 3 of my 5 CP on the initial drop. I'm going to give it a few tries, of course, but I can't decide right now if that impressive drop is worth giving up shield wall and choice die rerolls for most of the game.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 15:33:27


Post by: Spoletta


MilkmanAl wrote:
Right, so on that note, I play pretty much pure Deathwing. I'm considering the merits of the new Deathwing Assault strategem. I'm disappointed it doesn't let us deep strike into combat more reliably, but an extra round of shooting seems pretty useful for clearing away screening troops before Knights Drop in close to the real target.

The problem is the 2/3 CP cost. Since I have so few units, my CP are in short supply - usually 5 with the lists I've been running recently. I like the idea of dropping in a unit of 10 terminators in to clear away the nonsense surrounding a prime target. 8 stormbolters at rapid fire range and 2 assault cannons is a fair bit of firepower (kills about 18 GEQ or 7 MEQ), but is that worth 3 CP? I run a couple units of Knights, so I intend to be shield walling a fair bit. Obviously that ability will be in short supply after spending 3 of my 5 CP on the initial drop. I'm going to give it a few tries, of course, but I can't decide right now if that impressive drop is worth giving up shield wall and choice die rerolls for most of the game.


Count always 1 more cp for hunt the fallen. For a DW list is priceless to reroll charges.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 15:47:36


Post by: MilkmanAl


That's true. I don't love the idea of giving an opposing character an extra attack, but guaranteed hit and charge rerolls is tough to ignore for 1cp.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 15:54:01


Post by: Aeri


 wuestenfux wrote:
This means that an assault DA list full DW will not be competitive, neither will a full RW or full shooty greenwing. Instead, lists that make efficent use of all 3 of them will be among the hardest lists to play, but also capable of top table performance.
The DA codex is not focused on out-shooting, or out-meleeing your opponents. It is focused on outplaying (and punishing Fallens).

Seconded.
Synergy is key when you play DA. It has always been.


for example guiding our dw with rw teleport homers. oh wait....

any info on landspeeder points?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 16:02:39


Post by: Spoletta


MilkmanAl wrote:
That's true. I don't love the idea of giving an opposing character an extra attack, but guaranteed hit and charge rerolls is tough to ignore for 1cp.


Hit rerolls will rarely matter, but remember that you just need him to have a commissar/lieutenent/farseer/whatever in there, you tag him and say that he is among the targets that you are charging. You get to reroll even if in the end you are not charging him.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 16:44:13


Post by: MilkmanAl


Sage advice. I can't think of how often there's a character within 12" of where I'm planning to drop, but I have to imagine that use is somewhat situational. If your opponent presents the opportunity, though, that's an easy way to increase your chances of crashing the line early.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 18:03:58


Post by: Maelstrom808


Right now I'm thinking Master Strategist is going to be the go to warlord trait, particularly with Azzy. We have a tough time filling out multiple detachments, and command points will be at a premium for us. Getting the extra from Azzy plus the ability to regen a couple during the game will be huge considering how much of the strength of the codex relies on CP usage.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 18:08:43


Post by: axisofentropy


Yes brilliant Strategist will be the go-to unless you need the charge re-rolls.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 18:25:16


Post by: bobafett012


MilkmanAl wrote:
Right, so on that note, I play pretty much pure Deathwing. I'm considering the merits of the new Deathwing Assault strategem. I'm disappointed it doesn't let us deep strike into combat more reliably, but an extra round of shooting seems pretty useful for clearing away screening troops before Knights Drop in close to the real target.

The problem is the 2/3 CP cost. Since I have so few units, my CP are in short supply - usually 5 with the lists I've been running recently. I like the idea of dropping in a unit of 10 terminators in to clear away the nonsense surrounding a prime target. 8 stormbolters at rapid fire range and 2 assault cannons is a fair bit of firepower (kills about 18 GEQ or 7 MEQ), but is that worth 3 CP? I run a couple units of Knights, so I intend to be shield walling a fair bit. Obviously that ability will be in short supply after spending 3 of my 5 CP on the initial drop. I'm going to give it a few tries, of course, but I can't decide right now if that impressive drop is worth giving up shield wall and choice die rerolls for most of the game.


I also play pure DW, with 3 RW flyers. I agree, Deathwing Assault is very expensive for what your getting imo. Should have been 1/2CP and i'd have been happy. It's not like storm bolters and assault cannons are plasma, or melta weapons. Another thing I believe will work, is don't make Belial your warlord, his warlord trait is godawful, surprise surprise...sigh. Name a terminator libby or DW Ancient your warlord and give him master of maneuver. You could bring them down with your knights, or regular terms, the libby can debuff with aversion, the Banner gives +1 attack and then your knihghts can re-roll charges. I only run a single squad of knights because I feel the regular terms do more work, but I like them none the less, they are just so slow without a deliver system. Maybe i'll think about a Stormraven...


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 18:40:35


Post by: axisofentropy


Agreed Belial may never be a good Warlord. A full Deathwing army can make your Deathwing Ancient Warlord for the reroll charge trait. Doesn't have to be HQ! That's not very fluffy tho.

I'll add some consensus ratings to the OP later, starting with Warlord Traits.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 18:50:57


Post by: Spoletta


Let's try to delve a bit deeper in the topic now, since we have a fair bit of info.

Let's think about the typical matchups and see how a DA list fares, in particular let's focus on those points:

1) How efficent are DA at taking down a Demon Primarch?
2) How efficently can DA stop a melee horde?
3) How efficently can DA clear a screen?
4) How efficently can DA fight against stacked -hit?
5) How efficently can DA clear loads of tanks?
6) How efficently can DA deal with flyers?
7) How efficently can DA protect themselves against 1st turn assault?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 21:14:55


Post by: MilkmanAl


For my current army, which is basically 2 units of DWK in LRC, 2 units of 5 (will now be 1 of 10), Azrael, and Belial:

1. Really well if I can catch it. Not so well if I have to gun it down.
2. Exceptionally well. Between the LRCs and DWT, crowd control is not at all a problem. That goes double now that I can drop 3cp to eliminate a huge chunk of guys if necessary.
3. See above. Not a problem.
4. Probably better than most with essentially army-wide hit rerolls.
5. Poorly. I can catch a couple in combat, probably, but Leman Russ spam is bad news.
6. Uh...hope your opponent forgets his Stormravens?
7. I have zero screening units, but I can take a lickin' and keep on tickin'. Anything that decides to charge a LRC, is going to eat 10 DWK the next turn. That's no fun for anything.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/09 23:49:50


Post by: ZergSmasher


MilkmanAl wrote:
7. I have zero screening units, but I can take a lickin' and keep on tickin'. Anything that decides to charge a LRC, is going to eat 10 DWK the next turn. That's no fun for anything.

Plus, in addition to all those DWK (maximum of 8 since they are 2 spaces each), you can use a CP to let the LR shoot after it falls back. Naughty!


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/10 00:01:32


Post by: axisofentropy


MilkmanAl wrote:
great post
my Deathwing Knights went up against a 100% Russ army at ATC. I was able to consistently tag half of them to prevent shooting. But that was before their codex, and I barely won only by running the Relic behind a hill.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/10 02:08:50


Post by: Aeri


What Character in Terminator Armour would be the best option to accompany some Deathwing Terminators/Knights teleporting in?
Thinking about giving that Character the Swift Movement warlord trait (reroll charges and advance rolls) for better turn 1 charges.
Could even be an Ancient for the additional attack I think :O


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/10 02:56:02


Post by: axisofentropy


Aeri wrote:
What Character in Terminator Armour would be the best option to accompany some Deathwing Terminators/Knights teleporting in?
Thinking about giving that Character the Swift Movement warlord trait (reroll charges and advance rolls) for better turn 1 charges.
Could even be an Ancient for the additional attack I think :O
yeah ancient with Storm shield absolutely.

Alternative is jump pack Captain. Second character would be Belial ofc


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/10 12:51:36


Post by: Spoletta


After thinking about it i'm not finding Swift Movement to be the best choice. You can do that for 1 cp and an enemy char nearby. The hunt on the other hand seems better every time i look at it. The ranged part is nice, but what really shines are the movement tricks you can do with it in melee, like disengaging in the opponent's turn.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/10 17:24:33


Post by: Aeri


is there a compilation of all the point changes already?

I know of
Asmodai 15 Points Cheapter
Deathwing Terminators (because of Power Fists) 8 points cheaper
Black Knights 4 Points cheapter
RW Bikes ? points cheaper
Land Speeders -15 points cheaper
Dark Talon - 28 points cheaper

What about all the Ravenwing special characters (ancient etc. )? I'm assuming they all got at least 4 points cheaper aswell.



Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/10 19:24:09


Post by: axisofentropy


Bikes 6 points cheaper


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ezekiel 10 points cheaper. Other named characters unchanged.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/10 19:48:12


Post by: bobafett012


attack bikes are 10 points cheaper

interrogator chappy is 5 points cheaper, with term armor he is 3 points cheaper, and with JP he's 2 points cheaper. assault cannon went up 1 point, and twin assault cannons went up 9 points. Some of this was stuff change in the chapter approved and then adapted to the DA and BA codex.

including the ones above this post, I think that covers all the changes.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/10 21:27:41


Post by: MilkmanAl


Is anyone else seeing massive alpha strike potential with this book? Consider the following rough list:

Vanguard and Supreme Command detachments
Sammael on Corvex - 183
10 Black Knights - 460
Belial - 150
10 Terminators with assault cannons - 436
Azrael - 180
2x5 DWK - 500
Primaris Lieutenant - power sword - 74
1983


You can zoom your bikers up the field with Sammael, pop Speed and the plasma strat to hopefully nuke some vital heavy target(s?) then charge whatever they can. Terminators and Belial drop in and shoot twice to clear a flank. The Lieutenant is mostly to make the 3 special characters fit, but in the game, he'll be a body guard for Azrael as they slog towards the action. DWK hopefully drop in a place that, in combo with your terminators and Black Knights, prevents your opponent from running away from them. Start with Azrael near the bikes for a 4++.

Gimmicky? Maybe, but I bet it's fairly hard to deal with. Even if you go second, your strike should still be largely intact, thanks to Azrael. Yep, you use 5 of your 6 CP on the first turn, but you should really do some huge damage to just about anything. I'm going to give it a try.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/10 21:32:51


Post by: axisofentropy


MilkmanAl wrote:
Is anyone else seeing massive alpha strike potential with this book?
yeah. Some combination of plasma inceptors and deathwing knights as the big alpha, followed by either Sammeal or a jump pack captain with the Master of Maneuver trait. I don't know what the rest of the list would be, probably Scouts.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 01:14:42


Post by: Aaranis


So, 10 Hellblasters with Heavy Incinerators is 350 pts, isn't it a bit much ? It's hard to justify this seeing as a few Autocannon shots may reap them all in a single volley. Any idea to support them without sinking too much points ? Placing them in ruins if possible seems obvious, but maybe run an Apothecary besides or something so that he can try to revive a 35 pts model per turn ?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 01:44:56


Post by: axisofentropy


 Aaranis wrote:
maybe run an Apothecary besides or something so that he can try to revive a 35 pts model per turn ?
you'd get more milage from an ancient. And plasma cannon devastators are prolly better than hellblasters


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 01:47:58


Post by: ZergSmasher


It's not worth it to take the heavy incinerators. They only get one shot, albeit at long range, so they are not good for their points. I personally like the regular incinerators. In addition to being the cheapest, they have good range and can double tap if they get close to something. The assault ones are nice for having 2 shots at 24 inches, but they are weaker, which is kind of a deal breaker for me unless I don't care about shooting vehicles with them (in which case why bother with the extra damage strat?).


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 01:51:27


Post by: Tagony


Are any of you planning on running primaris other than hellblasters?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 01:57:11


Post by: ZergSmasher


 Tagony wrote:
Are any of you planning on running primaris other than hellblasters?

I want to try out my Repulsor at some point. I didn't buy it to do shelf duty after all. I definitely like Intercessors so they will make at least some of my lists. The other stuff, I'm not as sure about.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 06:12:46


Post by: anticitizen013


Thoughts on scouts? They are nice and cheap (or kinda expensive based on equipment), but with their deployment rules, they can probably get some pretty decent mileage out of Grim Resolve. Plus if you deploy them well (with >1 unit), you can block off most of the board from deep strikes. Still need to worry about things like a Swarmlord/Genestealer rush though.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 06:54:45


Post by: axisofentropy


 anticitizen013 wrote:
Thoughts on scouts? They are nice and cheap (or kinda expensive based on equipment), but with their deployment rules, they can probably get some pretty decent mileage out of Grim Resolve. Plus if you deploy them well (with >1 unit), you can block off most of the board from deep strikes. Still need to worry about things like a Swarmlord/Genestealer rush though.
Scouts are one of the best Troops in the game and they benefit the most from Grim Resolve. I'll probably include a few in every list, with a few heavy bolters and missile launchers for the hellfire shells and flakk missile strategems.

Against tyranids they're an asset not a liability. They block off deep strike and can act as speed bumps giving you another turn of shooting.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 10:07:00


Post by: Zillian


I just realised I have another copy of Dark Vengeance sitting around. That'll give me enough plasma cannons for a full dev squad.. hmmm. Shame the Haemotrope Reactor doesn't give any bonuses anymore.

I'm still not adding any girlymarines to my DA. They'll be going into my Purple Death Codex Marines chapter.



Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 10:47:22


Post by: Aaranis


axisofentropy wrote:you'd get more milage from an ancient. And plasma cannon devastators are prolly better than hellblasters

Hmm a 10 man unit of Devastators with 9 plasma cannons and 1 combi-plasma costs 355 pts. For this I get more shots (if I don't roll ones or twos for the number of shots all the time of course), but less AP and less Wounds. However I get the Cherub and the Signum, so my shots get more accurate. In the end I still have a 350+ pts unit, but this one takes 10 wounds to down versus 20 for the Primaris. I think they're even in terms of use due to that, what do you think ?

ZergSmasher wrote:It's not worth it to take the heavy incinerators. They only get one shot, albeit at long range, so they are not good for their points. I personally like the regular incinerators. In addition to being the cheapest, they have good range and can double tap if they get close to something. The assault ones are nice for having 2 shots at 24 inches, but they are weaker, which is kind of a deal breaker for me unless I don't care about shooting vehicles with them (in which case why bother with the extra damage strat?).
Well I see myself deploying them in a ruin and never move them again so that they don't have the -1, and they'd be my main anti-vehicle force, so the S8-S9 could really be handy to wound Vehicles and the likes easier. Wounding Russes on 3+ is appealing. I could use the regular Incinerators too, it's true, that'll make them more polyvalent if my opponent doesn't have much vehicles or is too far away. Then I could move them close and start raining down the plasma. I still like the concept of shooting at S8 on regular shots to wound MEQ on 2+ however


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 12:02:17


Post by: Grizzyzz


Assuming that the strat "Speed of the Raven" will be Faqd at some point... as it stands it simply is unclear for those that need the text to be perfect.

I have seen a few debates pop up on whether or not black knights can fire at full BS after advancing.. IMO intent here is very clear.

If its undeniable that a squad of say ravenwing bikes with no assault weapons can advance and then use this strat to fire at full BS... it makes no sense that simply having assault weapons would make your BS worse off.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 12:27:57


Post by: Scallywag


 axisofentropy wrote:
 anticitizen013 wrote:
Thoughts on scouts? They are nice and cheap (or kinda expensive based on equipment), but with their deployment rules, they can probably get some pretty decent mileage out of Grim Resolve. Plus if you deploy them well (with >1 unit), you can block off most of the board from deep strikes. Still need to worry about things like a Swarmlord/Genestealer rush though.
Scouts are one of the best Troops in the game and they benefit the most from Grim Resolve. I'll probably include a few in every list, with a few heavy bolters and missile launchers for the hellfire shells and flakk missile strategems.

Against tyranids they're an asset not a liability. They block off deep strike and can act as speed bumps giving you another turn of shooting.


This. Scouts are one of the best units in the codex. Concealed Positions is fantastic. Space Marines don't have cheap screens, so you need scouts to protect your expensive units from deep strikes. I would never play Space Marines with less than 3 units of scouts. I would even use 6 of them in a competitive list. Never buy the camo cloaks. They are completely overpriced. I would run them with boltguns and a heavy bolter (one or two units can take a missile launcher instead) in an DA army.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 13:14:05


Post by: Herodius


 Aaranis wrote:

Hmm a 10 man unit of Devastators with 9 plasma cannons and 1 combi-plasma costs 355 pts...

Devastator squads can only have up to 4 heavy weapons.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 14:03:09


Post by: Zustiur


Here's my first analysis of scouts. Critique very welcome.

Scout Squad
Advantages:
• Cheapest troops unit at 55 points
• Can deploy virtually anywhere, allowing
○ Deployment on objectives
○ Deployment as a forward screen
○ Deployment 9" from a unit you want to assault
• Objective secured AND infiltrate combined to prevent first turn midfield objective grabs
• Small bases, and therefore small footprint allowing deployment into terrain that might be too small for other units
• Option for shotguns
• Option for sniper rifles
• Option for pistol and blade, while being objective secured
I have deliberately excluded camo cloaks from the list of advantages because it's no better than having power armour in cover instead. Additionally, the cost makes them more expensive than having power armour in the first place.
For forward screening, no unit in our codex does it better. For side screening, Company veterans are cheaper.

If we rule out camo cloaks, what wargear do we chose? That depends on what role you want to set them, and you MUST select a role.
Are they a screen in front of your army? Keep them cheap.
Are they a screen for your flanks in a castle deployment/aura focussed army? Sniper rifles for the range.
Are they to tie up enemy units in combat? Pistol and blade, or possibly shotgun for S5 goodness.
Are they to sit on mid-field objectives and stay put? Bolters for the range.
Heavy weapons should only be for units which are not screens and are not far forward. Otherwise they'll die too quickly. A heavy bolter may be tempting, but you've just pushed up from 55 to 63 points, entering Tactical Squad territory. Be truthful with yourself about how likely they are to die in the first turn or two.
Heavy weapons in a sniper unit are also very tempting as they'll be near your back line anyway, but you pay a lot for it, and reduce your sniping power in the process. If you bought snipers, don't you want to maximise the potential for those mortal wounds on characters?

Shotguns vs pistol and blade. If you get close enough, such as deploying 9" away then moving, you have the S5 of shotguns to work with. Against T4 and T8, that's an advantage for sure. 10 shots wounding on 3s instead of 4s or 5s instead of 6s. The rest of the time, the pistol and blade gets you a shot, and two close combat attacks instead of 1, with a potential extra shot in later rounds.

Overall, I think the best options are:
Pistol and Sword for harassment of the enemy line.
Bolters for midfield objective holding
Snipers for backfield/flank screening.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 14:14:44


Post by: Swillsswil


 Herodius wrote:
 Aaranis wrote:

Hmm a 10 man unit of Devastators with 9 plasma cannons and 1 combi-plasma costs 355 pts...

Devastator squads can only have up to 4 heavy weapons.


Which means two 5 man squads with 8 hvy plasma and two combi plasma. Which then means you can only affect 5 of your 10 plasma weapons with Dark Age strategem vs all 10 in a max hellblaster squad.

Not a clear winner between the two since devs have better # shots at longer range (around 16-18 vs 10) but less durable, less optimal for Dark Age Weapons, and less mobile. Probably comes down to what else is in your list.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 15:17:20


Post by: Aaranis


 Swillsswil wrote:
 Herodius wrote:
 Aaranis wrote:

Hmm a 10 man unit of Devastators with 9 plasma cannons and 1 combi-plasma costs 355 pts...

Devastator squads can only have up to 4 heavy weapons.


Which means two 5 man squads with 8 hvy plasma and two combi plasma. Which then means you can only affect 5 of your 10 plasma weapons with Dark Age strategem vs all 10 in a max hellblaster squad.

Not a clear winner between the two since devs have better # shots at longer range (around 16-18 vs 10) but less durable, less optimal for Dark Age Weapons, and less mobile. Probably comes down to what else is in your list.

Oh for some reason I thought you could give heavy weapons to the whole squad barring the Sergeant. It makes for an even less appealing choice to me, and it requires two Heavy Support choices, which may or may not be a problem. It's one more deployment too, and yes the Stratagem will apply to less Marines at once, and since you can split fire everything it should never be wasted to use it on 10 guys.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 15:18:57


Post by: anticitizen013


Spoiler tag for a multitude of quoted posts:
Spoiler:
axisofentropy wrote:
 anticitizen013 wrote:
Thoughts on scouts? They are nice and cheap (or kinda expensive based on equipment), but with their deployment rules, they can probably get some pretty decent mileage out of Grim Resolve. Plus if you deploy them well (with >1 unit), you can block off most of the board from deep strikes. Still need to worry about things like a Swarmlord/Genestealer rush though.
Scouts are one of the best Troops in the game and they benefit the most from Grim Resolve. I'll probably include a few in every list, with a few heavy bolters and missile launchers for the hellfire shells and flakk missile strategems.

Against tyranids they're an asset not a liability. They block off deep strike and can act as speed bumps giving you another turn of shooting.


Scallywag wrote:
 axisofentropy wrote:
 anticitizen013 wrote:
Thoughts on scouts? They are nice and cheap (or kinda expensive based on equipment), but with their deployment rules, they can probably get some pretty decent mileage out of Grim Resolve. Plus if you deploy them well (with >1 unit), you can block off most of the board from deep strikes. Still need to worry about things like a Swarmlord/Genestealer rush though.
Scouts are one of the best Troops in the game and they benefit the most from Grim Resolve. I'll probably include a few in every list, with a few heavy bolters and missile launchers for the hellfire shells and flakk missile strategems.

Against tyranids they're an asset not a liability. They block off deep strike and can act as speed bumps giving you another turn of shooting.


This. Scouts are one of the best units in the codex. Concealed Positions is fantastic. Space Marines don't have cheap screens, so you need scouts to protect your expensive units from deep strikes. I would never play Space Marines with less than 3 units of scouts. I would even use 6 of them in a competitive list. Never buy the camo cloaks. They are completely overpriced. I would run them with boltguns and a heavy bolter (one or two units can take a missile launcher instead) in an DA army.


Zustiur wrote:Here's my first analysis of scouts. Critique very welcome.

Scout Squad
Advantages:
• Cheapest troops unit at 55 points
• Can deploy virtually anywhere, allowing
○ Deployment on objectives
○ Deployment as a forward screen
○ Deployment 9" from a unit you want to assault
• Objective secured AND infiltrate combined to prevent first turn midfield objective grabs
• Small bases, and therefore small footprint allowing deployment into terrain that might be too small for other units
• Option for shotguns
• Option for sniper rifles
• Option for pistol and blade, while being objective secured
I have deliberately excluded camo cloaks from the list of advantages because it's no better than having power armour in cover instead. Additionally, the cost makes them more expensive than having power armour in the first place.
For forward screening, no unit in our codex does it better. For side screening, Company veterans are cheaper.

If we rule out camo cloaks, what wargear do we chose? That depends on what role you want to set them, and you MUST select a role.
Are they a screen in front of your army? Keep them cheap.
Are they a screen for your flanks in a castle deployment/aura focussed army? Sniper rifles for the range.
Are they to tie up enemy units in combat? Pistol and blade, or possibly shotgun for S5 goodness.
Are they to sit on mid-field objectives and stay put? Bolters for the range.
Heavy weapons should only be for units which are not screens and are not far forward. Otherwise they'll die too quickly. A heavy bolter may be tempting, but you've just pushed up from 55 to 63 points, entering Tactical Squad territory. Be truthful with yourself about how likely they are to die in the first turn or two.
Heavy weapons in a sniper unit are also very tempting as they'll be near your back line anyway, but you pay a lot for it, and reduce your sniping power in the process. If you bought snipers, don't you want to maximise the potential for those mortal wounds on characters?

Shotguns vs pistol and blade. If you get close enough, such as deploying 9" away then moving, you have the S5 of shotguns to work with. Against T4 and T8, that's an advantage for sure. 10 shots wounding on 3s instead of 4s or 5s instead of 6s. The rest of the time, the pistol and blade gets you a shot, and two close combat attacks instead of 1, with a potential extra shot in later rounds.

Overall, I think the best options are:
Pistol and Sword for harassment of the enemy line.
Bolters for midfield objective holding
Snipers for backfield/flank screening.

Thanks to all for the responses. I feel the same about scouts. They are fantastic and having that ability to deploy pretty much anywhere during the deployment phase is incredibly potent (much better than the Alpha Legion and Raven Guard strategems, for example). I suppose I never really looked at how expensive camo cloaks really are. For a unit of 5 thats an extra 15 points. If you have multiple units of scouts, that adds up real fast, and really if you're just using them as a block/speedbump, you don't want them to be expensive anyway.

I just bought a bunch of Scion heads because while the scout models are good, their heads are absolutely atrocious and need to be replaced. The Scion ones are amazing and look super cool on them too. They were a good price too! Jackpot!


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 16:42:30


Post by: Tagony


Thanks Zerg, are you planning on running them in 10 or 5 man units?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 16:46:07


Post by: MilkmanAl


I'm a little surprised Black knights haven't gotten more love on the plasma front. They're certainly more expensive per model, but they're much easier to position for quality shots than devastators and Hellblasters. They're also useful in combat after they murder something in the shooting phase. They're worth a try!


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 17:19:50


Post by: Aeri


I think I just peed a little when I thought about Asmodai + Ancient + 10 Vets with chainswords in a redeemer. 50 attacks and rerollable hits. Throw in a few special weapons and you have a truly deadly unit.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 18:07:50


Post by: Maelstrom808


Aeri wrote:
I think I just peed a little when I thought about Asmodai + Ancient + 10 Vets with chainswords in a redeemer. 50 attacks and rerollable hits. Throw in a few special weapons and you have a truly deadly unit.


If you want to get a little silly:

Asmodai
Company Champion
Vet Squad - Sgt (TH/SS), 4x Vets Bolter/Chainsword
Vet Squad - Sgt (TH/SS), 4x Vets Bolter/Chainsword
Vet Squad - Sgt (TH/SS), 3x Vets Bolter/Chainsword

Packed into a Crusader.

Drive up, pile out and unload with the bolters, then charge and start mauling units.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 18:20:57


Post by: Aeri


The champion doesn't give +1 attack, does he?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 21:12:21


Post by: Maelstrom808


No, but neither does the ancient in the previous example. The champion provides a bit more punch with 4x S7 AP-3 Dd3 attacks at a 2+. If you want to save a few points, you can swap him with another vet, but at this many points invested already, meh.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 21:22:29


Post by: Aeri


ok, i thought the ancient would have the same banner as a ravenwing or deathwing ancient...


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/11 23:36:47


Post by: Aaranis


So, is it possible to have a solid TAC pure Dark Angels list at 2000 pts or not ? Or should we specialise in a few fields while having a weakness in others ? I feel like a TAC list fails to deliver in 8th, because everything can die so quickly, your dedicated units die too early to fill their role and so you have to run the rest of the game without a critical part of your army just because you didn't invested enough points in that role for the benefit of the others.

Keep in mind I've never played Space Marines, so my experience with them is limited to the reading of the SM codex and Index a few times. With that in mind, every list needs at least:
- Anti-horde, be it blobs of GEQ or Brimstones, we need something to tear through the bubble-wrap so that our DW can go to their targets. What could do this ? Heavy bolters Devastators ? Land Speeders, other vehicles ? Primaris Inceptors look really interesting since chapter approved, they've dropped from 60 to 45 pts each, so with a squad of three you get 18 24" S5 AP-1 D1 that can deepstrike right where you need them to be, and charge/disengage to avoid getting shot with a little luck, dealing a few mortal wounds in the process;
- Anti-vehicle/monster, AKA S7+ weapons, preferably with a good AP. At range, once again, Devastators with missile launchers, lascannons or plasma cannons should do the job. Hellblasters looks like a good option, and a max squad can use the stratagem very efficiently. Razorbacks or Predators with lascannons perhaps ? Can we have melta/multi-meltas on bikes or Land Speeders ? These would make a good delivery system. In CC, we have Terminators, either with TH/SS, or the classic DW Knights. DW can be buffed by so many characters it's outrageous. Dreadnoughts are good too but don't they lack mobility ? Maybe transport them in a Flyer ?
- Psychic deniers/dealers, I've been traumatized by a Tzeentch list recently that almost single-handedly made me drop AdMech, so I'm thinking about this a lot. Luckily DA don't lack options, either with a classic Librarian or Ezekiel that is essentially a Librarian +1. We have also access to some pretty nice new powers, I'm thinking about Mind Worm or especially Righteous Repugnance, which our Knights will love, and could even allow us to place our special rerolling characters elsewhere maybe ? And having access to a 5 pts Watcher in the Dark to attempt a Deny the Witch on a 4+ is nice, because DW will be targeted by enemy Psykers most of the time.

Am I forgetting something ? What are your thoughts on this ?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 01:03:23


Post by: ZergSmasher


Tagony wrote:Thanks Zerg, are you planning on running them in 10 or 5 man units?

If I make a list with Intercessors, I'll probably run 5 man units as cheap objective holders/surprisingly durable screen units. 10 men and morale starts to become a problem, although for DA I suppose that's not an issue at all. I need to pick up more models before I can really think about doing larger units, though. The other unit I'm looking at really is Inceptors for horde control/harassment. I need to pick up 3 more and run a full 6-man unit of those guys. I faced them with my Chaos army and they are really annoying, especially since they are cheaper now.

Aaranis wrote:So, is it possible to have a solid TAC pure Dark Angels list at 2000 pts or not ? Or should we specialise in a few fields while having a weakness in others ? I feel like a TAC list fails to deliver in 8th, because everything can die so quickly, your dedicated units die too early to fill their role and so you have to run the rest of the game without a critical part of your army just because you didn't invested enough points in that role for the benefit of the others.

Keep in mind I've never played Space Marines, so my experience with them is limited to the reading of the SM codex and Index a few times. With that in mind, every list needs at least:
- Anti-horde, be it blobs of GEQ or Brimstones, we need something to tear through the bubble-wrap so that our DW can go to their targets. What could do this ? Heavy bolters Devastators ? Land Speeders, other vehicles ? Primaris Inceptors look really interesting since chapter approved, they've dropped from 60 to 45 pts each, so with a squad of three you get 18 24" S5 AP-1 D1 that can deepstrike right where you need them to be, and charge/disengage to avoid getting shot with a little luck, dealing a few mortal wounds in the process;
- Anti-vehicle/monster, AKA S7+ weapons, preferably with a good AP. At range, once again, Devastators with missile launchers, lascannons or plasma cannons should do the job. Hellblasters looks like a good option, and a max squad can use the stratagem very efficiently. Razorbacks or Predators with lascannons perhaps ? Can we have melta/multi-meltas on bikes or Land Speeders ? These would make a good delivery system. In CC, we have Terminators, either with TH/SS, or the classic DW Knights. DW can be buffed by so many characters it's outrageous. Dreadnoughts are good too but don't they lack mobility ? Maybe transport them in a Flyer ?
- Psychic deniers/dealers, I've been traumatized by a Tzeentch list recently that almost single-handedly made me drop AdMech, so I'm thinking about this a lot. Luckily DA don't lack options, either with a classic Librarian or Ezekiel that is essentially a Librarian +1. We have also access to some pretty nice new powers, I'm thinking about Mind Worm or especially Righteous Repugnance, which our Knights will love, and could even allow us to place our special rerolling characters elsewhere maybe ? And having access to a 5 pts Watcher in the Dark to attempt a Deny the Witch on a 4+ is nice, because DW will be targeted by enemy Psykers most of the time.

Am I forgetting something ? What are your thoughts on this ?

For anti-horde, I think Inceptors are a solid choice (because ALL THE DAKKA!). I'm not impressed with heavy bolter devs. Yes they are very cheap, but not terribly durable and don't have a lot of other uses, whereas Inceptors can shoot up a horde and then charge something else for a chance to deal mortal wounds and they can punch surprisingly hard like all Primaris marines with their 2 attacks base. The best horde control for the points is probably still the ever-reliable Twin Assault Cannon Razorback, though. If you want something expensive and durable for this, maybe a Land Raider Crusader or even a Repulsor could work, or the Ravenwing Talonmaster.
For Anti-big stuff, Lascannon Devs do good work, as do Lascannon Razorbacks (still better than a Las Predator for points). I honestly think Dreads or Ven Dreads with Lascannons are still a decent option, as they can take a punchy weapon too as a charge deterrent. The Azrael Gunline might be nerfed due to the loss of the invul protection on vehicles, but it's probably still good. After all, the Bobby G gunline still works and it never had the invul save, and Azrael+Lieutenant is almost as good as Bobby, for 140 points less (post-CA).
For anti-psykers and throwing our own spells, Ezekiel is probably our best option, but even our regular Libbies are still solid. You can still take them on bikes from the Index as per that flowchart that GW posted. Zeke even came down in points, so he's a real bargain now.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 05:46:05


Post by: Danny slag


If this the wrong spot to ask this, just yell. I haven't gotten hands on it. Can DA take land speeder storms and scout bikes? Or is that index only?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 06:22:45


Post by: NurglesR0T


Danny slag wrote:
If this the wrong spot to ask this, just yell. I haven't gotten hands on it. Can DA take land speeder storms and scout bikes? Or is that index only?


New codex definitely includes scout bikes, not 100% on storms. scout bikers don't count as Ravenwing though sadly.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 08:47:09


Post by: Iago40k


ARe there some new banners in the codex or is Ravenwing stucked with +1A?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 09:33:16


Post by: Maelstrom808


Banners are the same.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 10:18:29


Post by: Aeri


I think a squad of blacklights with a banner is not too bad anyways. 3 attacks rerollable with Sammy sounds really good


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 13:10:38


Post by: Kdash


So, on the note of plasma and the stratagem, where do you think a 6 man Inceptor unit fits into the rankings?

For 354 points, you get a deep striking, T5 unit that will put out (on average) 24 plasma shots on the turn they arrive at 18” range. They also, if needed, have an option of charging due to their mortal wound output and the FLY keyword for next turn.

Sure, the squad would cost 24 points more than a 10 man Hellblaster squad, but, they won’t get shot off the table before they do anything, and, will always have more shots than the Hellblasters until both squads lose 5 models (if Hellblasters can rapid fire, the shots equal out after losing 2 models each).

Support will cost a lot though, with Sammael and a Talonmaster for wound re-rolls, but, each time I think about using devs or Hellblasters I keep going back to using Azrael, an Ancient, an Apothecary and a Lieutenant, which costs almost as much and would then rely on the use of another stratagem if they got charged.

Black Knights in a unit of 10 with similar support costs even more than the Inceptors, but, will gain a 4++ vs shooting (so likely only 1 or 2 turns of use), but they also come with less shots and are prone to alpha strikes.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 13:16:54


Post by: axisofentropy


I've been saying plasma inceptors get you the most milage from the plasma strategem. Hellblasters are a red herring.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 13:41:15


Post by: MilkmanAl


Good mileage per strat use, agreed, but is it the best bang for your buck? If I were to use Hellblasters at all, it'd be under Azrael's loving 4++ umbrella, so they'll presumably stick around a bit longer than Inceptors. Black knights allow for lots of maneuverability and are solid options in combat.

That said, I'm interested to see how the newly-reasonably priced Inceptors fit into our book. Clearing the path for DWK seems a likely role for them. I like the plasma drop idea, for sure, but it may be a challenge to get them hit rerolls for the reliability you'd want a gambit that expensive to have. What I'm really scratching my head about is whether they should replace DWT in my Deathwing force. I really like the DWT's combat ability, but their role for at least a turn is horde suppression. Inceptors are just straight better at that than Terminators.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 14:26:36


Post by: Spoletta


MilkmanAl wrote:
Good mileage per strat use, agreed, but is it the best bang for your buck? If I were to use Hellblasters at all, it'd be under Azrael's loving 4++ umbrella, so they'll presumably stick around a bit longer than Inceptors. Black knights allow for lots of maneuverability and are solid options in combat.

That said, I'm interested to see how the newly-reasonably priced Inceptors fit into our book. Clearing the path for DWK seems a likely role for them. I like the plasma drop idea, for sure, but it may be a challenge to get them hit rerolls for the reliability you'd want a gambit that expensive to have. What I'm really scratching my head about is whether they should replace DWT in my Deathwing force. I really like the DWT's combat ability, but their role for at least a turn is horde suppression. Inceptors are just straight better at that than Terminators.


Inceptors make their points back in the single turn of fire, they could easily die all by overheat and it still would be a good investment. One possible build for DA will be 3 units of plasma inceptors, one for each turn of game, every time coming down and blasting something. That's a perfect complement for terminator heavy lists.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 15:05:57


Post by: Breng77


MilkmanAl wrote:
Good mileage per strat use, agreed, but is it the best bang for your buck? If I were to use Hellblasters at all, it'd be under Azrael's loving 4++ umbrella, so they'll presumably stick around a bit longer than Inceptors. Black knights allow for lots of maneuverability and are solid options in combat.

That said, I'm interested to see how the newly-reasonably priced Inceptors fit into our book. Clearing the path for DWK seems a likely role for them. I like the plasma drop idea, for sure, but it may be a challenge to get them hit rerolls for the reliability you'd want a gambit that expensive to have. What I'm really scratching my head about is whether they should replace DWT in my Deathwing force. I really like the DWT's combat ability, but their role for at least a turn is horde suppression. Inceptors are just straight better at that than Terminators.


It isn't cheap but you could Drop Pod Azreal to be near Inceptors. The issue with Helblasters is range, They are not going to be at optimal range for at least 2 turns, so while they may stick around longer, they may take a lot of damage prior to really being effective.

Something to consider for Inceptors if you want to keep it cheap is assuming DA get the same normal lieutenants, take a master and lieutenant with jump packs and you can get "cheap" re-rolls for your Inceptors, at least compared to Sammi and a talon master.

As for DWT with their stratagem I think they are better than inceptors for that first turn horde, though the inceptors are cheaper. With Stratagem they are getting 64-80 Stormbolter shots + heavy weapons vs 36 Shots from inceptors. Price wise though for that many terminators you could take 10 bolter inceptors so that would be 60 Heavy bolter shots. The issue with doing that is that they are less durable than the terminators, and worse in combat


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 15:08:31


Post by: MilkmanAl


By my math, you need ~23 overcharged shots to put down a Razorback and 48 to drop a Leman Russ. If you add rerolls, those numbers improve some, but I wouldn't count on them straight making up their points in 1 turn of shooting. That's not to say they aren't worthwhile, of course. I really, really like the idea of dropping them behind some DWKs for protection. In fact, I may have to make dropping a wall of DWK with Inceptors behind a standard practice. Whether it's for softening up a juicy target, blasting away screens, or both, I can see that being a really solid way to anchor a flank.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 15:54:11


Post by: Spoletta


MilkmanAl wrote:
By my math, you need ~23 overcharged shots to put down a Razorback and 48 to drop a Leman Russ. If you add rerolls, those numbers improve some, but I wouldn't count on them straight making up their points in 1 turn of shooting. That's not to say they aren't worthwhile, of course. I really, really like the idea of dropping them behind some DWKs for protection. In fact, I may have to make dropping a wall of DWK with Inceptors behind a standard practice. Whether it's for softening up a juicy target, blasting away screens, or both, I can see that being a really solid way to anchor a flank.


How are you calculating that? My math says that 10 shots without rerolls take down a razorback.

10 x 0,66 x 0,66 x 0,83 x 3= 10,84

12 shots on a Leman Russ:

12 x 0,66 x 0,5 x 0,83 x 3= 9,86 (11,5 if you reroll any kind of 1)


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 16:43:45


Post by: Breng77


MilkmanAl wrote:
By my math, you need ~23 overcharged shots to put down a Razorback and 48 to drop a Leman Russ. If you add rerolls, those numbers improve some, but I wouldn't count on them straight making up their points in 1 turn of shooting. That's not to say they aren't worthwhile, of course. I really, really like the idea of dropping them behind some DWKs for protection. In fact, I may have to make dropping a wall of DWK with Inceptors behind a standard practice. Whether it's for softening up a juicy target, blasting away screens, or both, I can see that being a really solid way to anchor a flank.


Yeah not really sure about your math.

A Leman Russ gets would get wounded on a 4+ and have a 6+ save. If every wound does 3 damage, it takes 4 successful wounds to kill the russ. The 6+ save means it will take ~5 wounds scored to get 4 through, the 4+ save means it will take 10 hits to get 5 wounds, or 15 shots (hitting on 3+). 6 Inceptors average 24 shots, so it is entirely possible to kill both a russ and a Razorback. That is without any re-rolls. Against T8 3+ save (so say a Stormsword) you are averaging 20 damage with no re-rolls Against T7 3+ save, you average 26.7 damage, so that is 2 razorbacks on average or 230 points (with a 350 point unit). So it will take high value targets to really make your points back quickly.

With re-rolls to hit, and re-roll 1s to wound against T8 3+ save you are averaging 31.1 damage. Against T7 3+ save you are averaging 41.5 damage. If you go first against say Magnus you average ~21 damage


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 17:14:43


Post by: MilkmanAl


Oh yeah, multiple damage. Oops! Still converting my brain from 7th somewhat, I suppose.Sorry about that.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 17:53:14


Post by: StormLion


 ZergSmasher wrote:
Tagony wrote:Thanks Zerg, are you planning on running them in 10 or 5 man units?

If I make a list with Intercessors, I'll probably run 5 man units as cheap objective holders/surprisingly durable screen units. 10 men and morale starts to become a problem, although for DA I suppose that's not an issue at all. I need to pick up more models before I can really think about doing larger units, though. The other unit I'm looking at really is Inceptors for horde control/harassment. I need to pick up 3 more and run a full 6-man unit of those guys. I faced them with my Chaos army and they are really annoying, especially since they are cheaper now.

Aaranis wrote:So, is it possible to have a solid TAC pure Dark Angels list at 2000 pts or not ? Or should we specialise in a few fields while having a weakness in others ? I feel like a TAC list fails to deliver in 8th, because everything can die so quickly, your dedicated units die too early to fill their role and so you have to run the rest of the game without a critical part of your army just because you didn't invested enough points in that role for the benefit of the others.

Keep in mind I've never played Space Marines, so my experience with them is limited to the reading of the SM codex and Index a few times. With that in mind, every list needs at least:
- Anti-horde, be it blobs of GEQ or Brimstones, we need something to tear through the bubble-wrap so that our DW can go to their targets. What could do this ? Heavy bolters Devastators ? Land Speeders, other vehicles ? Primaris Inceptors look really interesting since chapter approved, they've dropped from 60 to 45 pts each, so with a squad of three you get 18 24" S5 AP-1 D1 that can deepstrike right where you need them to be, and charge/disengage to avoid getting shot with a little luck, dealing a few mortal wounds in the process;
- Anti-vehicle/monster, AKA S7+ weapons, preferably with a good AP. At range, once again, Devastators with missile launchers, lascannons or plasma cannons should do the job. Hellblasters looks like a good option, and a max squad can use the stratagem very efficiently. Razorbacks or Predators with lascannons perhaps ? Can we have melta/multi-meltas on bikes or Land Speeders ? These would make a good delivery system. In CC, we have Terminators, either with TH/SS, or the classic DW Knights. DW can be buffed by so many characters it's outrageous. Dreadnoughts are good too but don't they lack mobility ? Maybe transport them in a Flyer ?
- Psychic deniers/dealers, I've been traumatized by a Tzeentch list recently that almost single-handedly made me drop AdMech, so I'm thinking about this a lot. Luckily DA don't lack options, either with a classic Librarian or Ezekiel that is essentially a Librarian +1. We have also access to some pretty nice new powers, I'm thinking about Mind Worm or especially Righteous Repugnance, which our Knights will love, and could even allow us to place our special rerolling characters elsewhere maybe ? And having access to a 5 pts Watcher in the Dark to attempt a Deny the Witch on a 4+ is nice, because DW will be targeted by enemy Psykers most of the time.

Am I forgetting something ? What are your thoughts on this ?

For anti-horde, I think Inceptors are a solid choice (because ALL THE DAKKA!). I'm not impressed with heavy bolter devs. Yes they are very cheap, but not terribly durable and don't have a lot of other uses, whereas Inceptors can shoot up a horde and then charge something else for a chance to deal mortal wounds and they can punch surprisingly hard like all Primaris marines with their 2 attacks base. The best horde control for the points is probably still the ever-reliable Twin Assault Cannon Razorback, though. If you want something expensive and durable for this, maybe a Land Raider Crusader or even a Repulsor could work, or the Ravenwing Talonmaster.
For Anti-big stuff, Lascannon Devs do good work, as do Lascannon Razorbacks (still better than a Las Predator for points). I honestly think Dreads or Ven Dreads with Lascannons are still a decent option, as they can take a punchy weapon too as a charge deterrent. The Azrael Gunline might be nerfed due to the loss of the invul protection on vehicles, but it's probably still good. After all, the Bobby G gunline still works and it never had the invul save, and Azrael+Lieutenant is almost as good as Bobby, for 140 points less (post-CA).
For anti-psykers and throwing our own spells, Ezekiel is probably our best option, but even our regular Libbies are still solid. You can still take them on bikes from the Index as per that flowchart that GW posted. Zeke even came down in points, so he's a real bargain now.


With regard to the horde, what about some stationary Aggressors?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 18:38:44


Post by: Aaranis


StormLion wrote:
With regard to the horde, what about some stationary Aggressors?

They're really interesting, for 162 pts you have 18 bolter shots + 3d6 S4 shots, at 18" and twice that when stationary. The only issue is they'll probably need either a transport or a short run to get to their targets, but considering they can Advance and shoot with no malus that's doable. Inceptors shoot at S5 AP-1 however, and can drop right in front of their targets turn one. I'd say the Aggressors are best used defensively to camp on an objective or something, than actively running to the enemy. If you have them transported they'll spend one turn in the Repulsor, another at single volley mode (due to the disembark) and then on the third turn they'll finally be able to rain down fire. It's a lot of time spent to make them worthwhile, and a dozen things can happen in the meantime where they could get shot or something. I'd play them defensively if I chose to run them in my list.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 18:57:38


Post by: Spoletta


 Aaranis wrote:
StormLion wrote:
With regard to the horde, what about some stationary Aggressors?

They're really interesting, for 162 pts you have 18 bolter shots + 3d6 S4 shots, at 18" and twice that when stationary. The only issue is they'll probably need either a transport or a short run to get to their targets, but considering they can Advance and shoot with no malus that's doable. Inceptors shoot at S5 AP-1 however, and can drop right in front of their targets turn one. I'd say the Aggressors are best used defensively to camp on an objective or something, than actively running to the enemy. If you have them transported they'll spend one turn in the Repulsor, another at single volley mode (due to the disembark) and then on the third turn they'll finally be able to rain down fire. It's a lot of time spent to make them worthwhile, and a dozen things can happen in the meantime where they could get shot or something. I'd play them defensively if I chose to run them in my list.


Aggressors are much cheaper than that, 3 are 111 points. They are the most efficent anti-horde unit in the game.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 19:06:22


Post by: Aaranis


Oh Chapter Approved reduced their cost too ? Well that changes my statement then. Still, a few transport issue, and they have the same durability as Inceptors.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 19:12:10


Post by: Breng77


Spoletta wrote:
 Aaranis wrote:
StormLion wrote:
With regard to the horde, what about some stationary Aggressors?

They're really interesting, for 162 pts you have 18 bolter shots + 3d6 S4 shots, at 18" and twice that when stationary. The only issue is they'll probably need either a transport or a short run to get to their targets, but considering they can Advance and shoot with no malus that's doable. Inceptors shoot at S5 AP-1 however, and can drop right in front of their targets turn one. I'd say the Aggressors are best used defensively to camp on an objective or something, than actively running to the enemy. If you have them transported they'll spend one turn in the Repulsor, another at single volley mode (due to the disembark) and then on the third turn they'll finally be able to rain down fire. It's a lot of time spent to make them worthwhile, and a dozen things can happen in the meantime where they could get shot or something. I'd play them defensively if I chose to run them in my list.


Aggressors are much cheaper than that, 3 are 111 points. They are the most efficent anti-horde unit in the game.


Somewhat, but they are much slower than inceptors at 135 for 3. If you are moving Aggressors Put out 28 S4 shots on average, vs 18 S5 shots. Against T3 5+ save Aggressors put out 8.3 wounds if they move, vs 6.7 for inceptors. Against T4 6+ (orks) it is 7.8 vs 8. So it depends on the Horde. Their ability to get in good positions is really their large issue.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 19:13:22


Post by: Spoletta


Sure, despite their name, they like to wait for the enemy.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 20:10:41


Post by: Widied


Okay so my first thoughts based on the reviews I've been reading/watching is that the highlights are:

Dark Talons 40 point decrease. These were great before my god they will be good now. That is such a deal.

Hellblasters seem to have been given a pretty big boon in the way of that strategem. Other units will make good use of it too but this strat seems to be what you almost want to build around. It seems that good.

Azrael, while nerfed, is still probably a mainstay especially since you will be wanting to protect those shiny new Hellblasters you just bought.

Ezekiel dropping 10 points does make me happy. I don't know why but I've always found him useful. I will continue to use him.

I think bikes could be back as a potential unit to use in the list again. If the points drop is significant I could see using these guys as another plasma option that comes with anti-infantry as well. Basically anything carting plasma is going to be worth considering. I don't think people will want to totally put away their lascannons but it will definitely be good to have a couple plasma options available. Though I have been using plasma in good faith to my dark angels lore I am excited that it will do more now.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 20:56:00


Post by: MilkmanAl


Dark talons are overall 28pts cheaper due to the hurricane bolter increase, but that doesn't change how awesome they are. I'm a little surprised we haven't heard more rumblings about DA flyer spam, honestly. We've got some very strong options in that venue.

There's some discussion in the tactis thread about plasma inceptors, which are now pretty darn good for us. 24 precision plasma shots is a load of firepower.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/12 21:02:56


Post by: FirePainter


I've been playing with list ideas and I like a dual wing approach.

I'm thinking 3 x 6 black knights with darkshroud and hqs with 2 x 5 DW knights with hqs. It's light on models but has decent shooting from the ravenwing and good combat from all of it. I'm thinking Beliel and a terminal chaplain for has and maybe a combo of ancients, champions, or apothecaries. Not sure which would be best. This would fit in a outrider and vanguard detachments. Light on command points but enough to start I think.

Thoughts?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/13 00:22:16


Post by: Aaranis


 FirePainter wrote:
I've been playing with list ideas and I like a dual wing approach.

I'm thinking 3 x 6 black knights with darkshroud and hqs with 2 x 5 DW knights with hqs. It's light on models but has decent shooting from the ravenwing and good combat from all of it. I'm thinking Beliel and a terminal chaplain for has and maybe a combo of ancients, champions, or apothecaries. Not sure which would be best. This would fit in a outrider and vanguard detachments. Light on command points but enough to start I think.

Thoughts?

How many points is that list ? It looks really light indeed. But the store manager in my town used to run full Deathwing pre-SM Codex and it sorta worked so why not ? I'd suggest a Librarian to buff your units and deny, and some anti-tank weaponry. Take something to clear out the chaff too, you don't want your Knights to be stuck in CC with Brimstones while your opponent takes objectives.

Again, I don't really know Dark Angels that much, but my advice sounds sensible enough, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/13 04:20:37


Post by: bullyboy


Aeri wrote:
I think a squad of blacklights with a banner is not too bad anyways. 3 attacks rerollable with Sammy sounds really good


yes, and if they happen to find any questionable stains on their dresses, err I mean cloaks, even more of a bonus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
 Aaranis wrote:
StormLion wrote:
With regard to the horde, what about some stationary Aggressors?

They're really interesting, for 162 pts you have 18 bolter shots + 3d6 S4 shots, at 18" and twice that when stationary. The only issue is they'll probably need either a transport or a short run to get to their targets, but considering they can Advance and shoot with no malus that's doable. Inceptors shoot at S5 AP-1 however, and can drop right in front of their targets turn one. I'd say the Aggressors are best used defensively to camp on an objective or something, than actively running to the enemy. If you have them transported they'll spend one turn in the Repulsor, another at single volley mode (due to the disembark) and then on the third turn they'll finally be able to rain down fire. It's a lot of time spent to make them worthwhile, and a dozen things can happen in the meantime where they could get shot or something. I'd play them defensively if I chose to run them in my list.


Aggressors are much cheaper than that, 3 are 111 points. They are the most efficent anti-horde unit in the game.


hmmm, I picked up some super cheap Aggressors to make 3 units of 3 Obliterators for my iron Warriors (conversions) but now I'm wondering if one of them will sneak it's way into my DAs. Already have Hellblasters and Lt ordered.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/13 10:12:54


Post by: Kdash


MilkmanAl wrote:
Dark talons are overall 28pts cheaper due to the hurricane bolter increase, but that doesn't change how awesome they are. I'm a little surprised we haven't heard more rumblings about DA flyer spam, honestly. We've got some very strong options in that venue.

There's some discussion in the tactis thread about plasma inceptors, which are now pretty darn good for us. 24 precision plasma shots is a load of firepower.


The problem I see with DA flyer spam, is model count.

Something that was pointed out to me last weekend, was the Boots on the Ground rule in Chapter Approved is different to the FAQ version – in that you no longer auto lose if you only have flyers on the table. However, they still can’t claim objectives.

The problem here, is that DA – especially the wings, are very elite in terms of model count. Using 3 or 4 flyers will drastically reduce your already small model count leaving you open to all sorts of issues when it comes to “tabling” or objective based missions.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/13 11:25:45


Post by: Iago40k


hmm I read several times the Talonmaster will be 188 pts. Is there a source for that?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/13 12:46:20


Post by: FirePainter


 Aaranis wrote:
 FirePainter wrote:
I've been playing with list ideas and I like a dual wing approach.

I'm thinking 3 x 6 black knights with darkshroud and hqs with 2 x 5 DW knights with hqs. It's light on models but has decent shooting from the ravenwing and good combat from all of it. I'm thinking Beliel and a terminal chaplain for has and maybe a combo of ancients, champions, or apothecaries. Not sure which would be best. This would fit in a outrider and vanguard detachments. Light on command points but enough to start I think.

Thoughts?

How many points is that list ? It looks really light indeed. But the store manager in my town used to run full Deathwing pre-SM Codex and it sorta worked so why not ? I'd suggest a Librarian to buff your units and deny, and some anti-tank weaponry. Take something to clear out the chaff too, you don't want your Knights to be stuck in CC with Brimstones while your opponent takes objectives.

Again, I don't really know Dark Angels that much, but my advice sounds sensible enough, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


This would be aiming for 2000 point. I could replace champions/ancients with cheap scout squads to provide a screen and obj grabbers.

Lists heavy on chaff might be an issue but both types of knights can clear them reasonably well. I am light on anti-tank besides melee ability. I'd have to drop a squad of something to be able to fit that in. I'd love a dark talon in the list but point are so tight with death and ravenwing.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/13 13:19:52


Post by: Grizzyzz


Have a 1500 point tourney this weekend. Rocking Ravenwing for this one.

Working with the points out of the new book I am kinda in a pickle about what to do with my list. This was one of my concepts..

Sammuel on Corvax, -1 to hit relic
Dark Shroud
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
Nephilim, twin lascannon
Nephilim, twin lascannon

Thoughts here? I was thinking maybe better to run two larger black knight squads for better use of the strategems... but realistically I have 4 CPs.... I don't really expect to be using strategems like crazy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was thinking about running only 1 nephilim, and maybe using an ancient for extra attacks ..


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/13 13:23:40


Post by: Kdash


 Grizzyzz wrote:
Have a 1500 point tourney this weekend. Rocking Ravenwing for this one.

Working with the points out of the new book I am kinda in a pickle about what to do with my list. This was one of my concepts..

Sammuel on Corvax, -1 to hit relic
Dark Shroud
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
Nephilim, twin lascannon
Nephilim, twin lascannon

Thoughts here? I was thinking maybe better to run two larger black knight squads for better use of the strategems... but realistically I have 4 CPs.... I don't really expect to be using strategems like crazy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was thinking about running only 1 nephilim, and maybe using an ancient for extra attacks ..


I'm personally, just a little nervous about the model count you have. Is it a maelstrom tourney or standard?

Also, you can't give Sammael a relic due to him being a named character.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/13 14:45:48


Post by: MilkmanAl


I'd get a big Black Knight unit going, for sure. they can take advantage of the plasma and SoTR strats exceptionally well. Model count isn't something I'd worry about all that much. That's just a disadvantage Ravenwing and Deathwing are going to have to live with. You can compensate for lack of models with speed to a large degree, where board control is concerned.

There's been a lot of talk about Azrael parking lots on this board, so I figured I'd try my hand at a list and see what you guys think. Since vehicles don't get Azrael's 4++ anymore, I'm trending away from the Assback strategy Guilliman lovers employ and more towards pure heavy weaponry.

Azrael - 180
Lieutenant - power fist - 72
10 Hellblasters - 350? (forgot their cost and don't have a codex handy)
3x5 Scouts - 165
4 Mortis Dreads - 2 twin lascannons - 700
2 Dark Talons - 344? (again, forgot the new cost)
1 Darkshroud - 180ish

That's an exceptionally crude total of ~1990.

The plan is super easy. Get everything you can within 6" of Azrael, the Lieutenant, and the Darkshroud, and go to town. Scouts screen out drops. Plasma strat every turn on the Hellblasters to really mess something(s) up. Move your blob as necessary. It might be a bit of a challenge to capture objectives, but between Scouts and just normal movement, you shouldn't be at a huge disadvantage.



Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/13 16:25:51


Post by: Noneisbackhere


 Grizzyzz wrote:
Have a 1500 point tourney this weekend. Rocking Ravenwing for this one.

Working with the points out of the new book I am kinda in a pickle about what to do with my list. This was one of my concepts..

Sammuel on Corvax, -1 to hit relic
Dark Shroud
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
Nephilim, twin lascannon
Nephilim, twin lascannon

Thoughts here? I was thinking maybe better to run two larger black knight squads for better use of the strategems... but realistically I have 4 CPs.... I don't really expect to be using strategems like crazy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was thinking about running only 1 nephilim, and maybe using an ancient for extra attacks ..



Lets introduce ourselves "the new go to Warlord" Sammael (Azzy we'll never forget you ).I'd put him in Sableclaw instead of Corvex. The darkshroud-Black knights are an awesome choice. I'd remove the RW bikes and personally not gonna field any again. Their dmg output is ridiculously small for what they cost. Instead put 2x Talonmasters the new DA trend to lead the Black Knights. You can also give one the new power sword relic and watch him reign. Instead of 2xNephilim i would go 2x Dark Talons, they are just amazing.
But still i havent found the new points so i dont exactly know how much the Talonmasters are gonna cost.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/13 16:35:47


Post by: Grizzyzz


Kdash wrote:
Spoiler:
 Grizzyzz wrote:
Have a 1500 point tourney this weekend. Rocking Ravenwing for this one.

Working with the points out of the new book I am kinda in a pickle about what to do with my list. This was one of my concepts..

Sammuel on Corvax, -1 to hit relic
Dark Shroud
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
Nephilim, twin lascannon
Nephilim, twin lascannon

Thoughts here? I was thinking maybe better to run two larger black knight squads for better use of the strategems... but realistically I have 4 CPs.... I don't really expect to be using strategems like crazy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was thinking about running only 1 nephilim, and maybe using an ancient for extra attacks ..


I'm personally, just a little nervous about the model count you have. Is it a maelstrom tourney or standard?

Also, you can't give Sammael a relic due to him being a named character.


Its a custom format based on top of ITC. Maestromesk in a way with its progressive scoring system. We have added some extra sauce to try and limit some of the powerhouse lists. For example.. we run max 2 detachments. You can't have more characters than you have command points (while not perfect for all armies, it does more good than not).

I wasn't aware of the relic restrictions on named characters.. TY.. that is a shame :p but makes perfect sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Noneisbackhere wrote:

Lets introduce ourselves "the new go to Warlord" Sammael (Azzy we'll never forget you ).I'd put him in Sableclaw instead of Corvex. The darkshroud-Black knights are an awesome choice. I'd remove the RW bikes and personally not gonna field any again. Their dmg output is ridiculously small for what they cost. Instead put 2x Talonmasters the new DA trend to lead the Black Knights. You can also give one the new power sword relic and watch him reign. Instead of 2xNephilim i would go 2x Dark Talons, they are just amazing.
But still i havent found the new points so i dont exactly know how much the Talonmasters are gonna cost.


I do really like talon masters as well... I can see moving forward almost auto included is a Supreme command detachment of 3 of them.

Unfortunately for this tournament i am a little thin on models ( just started this army ) I will mess around a bit and repost.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/13 19:07:45


Post by: Aaranis


Wow, has anyone thought about the Redemptor Dreadnought for anti-horde ? Base it costs 207 pts for 12 S5 AP-1 shots, a heavy flamer, a D3 S7 AP-1 anti-fly weapon, and two D6 S4 grenade launchers. If you want more long range dakka you can amp it up to 222 pts for 24 S5 AP-1 shots, two Storm Bolters and the anti-fly weapon. Plus the classic Dreadnought fist to hit at S14 AP-3 D6 damage. I like it, it provides 24 heavy bolter shots at 30" and will reroll its 1s if standing still, two storm bolters for closer range (the grenade launchers are more expensive), as well as a nice anti-fly weapon.

In comparison we can buy 5 Inceptors with assault bolters, they will cost 225 pts and deliver 30 shots, albeit at 18", but they'll be in range after their deepstrike anyway. Durability-wise we have 10W with the Inceptors against 13W for the Redemptor, but he loses BS, WS and M when under 7W, altough he is T. However we lose the anti-fly weapon when taking the Inceptors, and the sweet CCW.

I think the Inceptors are better at dealing dakka, while the Dreadnought have more versatility in the way of his anti-fly weapon and his CC abilities. Thoughts on this ? I really want to justify buying a Redemptor because truescale Dreadnoughts are NICE.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/13 21:05:29


Post by: Orkinstein


 Grizzyzz wrote:
Have a 1500 point tourney this weekend. Rocking Ravenwing for this one.

Working with the points out of the new book I am kinda in a pickle about what to do with my list. This was one of my concepts..

Sammuel on Corvax, -1 to hit relic
Dark Shroud
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 Black Knights, melta bomb
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
4 RW Bikes, pwr sword
Nephilim, twin lascannon
Nephilim, twin lascannon

Thoughts here? I was thinking maybe better to run two larger black knight squads for better use of the strategems... but realistically I have 4 CPs.... I don't really expect to be using strategems like crazy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was thinking about running only 1 nephilim, and maybe using an ancient for extra attacks ..


special characters cannot take a relic... maybe add some scouts for DS deny and objectives


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/13 21:31:22


Post by: COLD CASH


 Aaranis wrote:
Wow, has anyone thought about the Redemptor Dreadnought for anti-horde ? Base it costs 207 pts for 12 S5 AP-1 shots, a heavy flamer, a D3 S7 AP-1 anti-fly weapon, and two D6 S4 grenade launchers. If you want more long range dakka you can amp it up to 222 pts for 24 S5 AP-1 shots, two Storm Bolters and the anti-fly weapon. Plus the classic Dreadnought fist to hit at S14 AP-3 D6 damage. I like it, it provides 24 heavy bolter shots at 30" and will reroll its 1s if standing still, two storm bolters for closer range (the grenade launchers are more expensive), as well as a nice anti-fly weapon.

In comparison we can buy 5 Inceptors with assault bolters, they will cost 225 pts and deliver 30 shots, albeit at 18", but they'll be in range after their deepstrike anyway. Durability-wise we have 10W with the Inceptors against 13W for the Redemptor, but he loses BS, WS and M when under 7W, altough he is T. However we lose the anti-fly weapon when taking the Inceptors, and the sweet CCW.

I think the Inceptors are better at dealing dakka, while the Dreadnought have more versatility in the way of his anti-fly weapon and his CC abilities. Thoughts on this ? I really want to justify buying a Redemptor because truescale Dreadnoughts are NICE.


I think you forget the EZybuild is out next week so hell yeh buy one!!


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/13 21:42:28


Post by: Aaranis


COLD CASH wrote:
I think you forget the EZybuild is out next week so hell yeh buy one!!

Yeah I remember, but the downside is that it's going to be the stock version while I'd like to build a double dakka one. Well, I'll see if the price is decent and decide then !


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/14 05:05:11


Post by: COLD CASH


 Aaranis wrote:
COLD CASH wrote:
I think you forget the EZybuild is out next week so hell yeh buy one!!

Yeah I remember, but the downside is that it's going to be the stock version while I'd like to build a double dakka one. Well, I'll see if the price is decent and decide then !


I have a spare assault cannon from my terms so im just glueing that baby on and boom double dakka!


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/14 07:08:31


Post by: Spoletta


Iago40k wrote:
hmm I read several times the Talonmaster will be 188 pts. Is there a source for that?


I confirmed it personally, it's 188.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/14 23:45:25


Post by: TedNugent


Can anyone please explain how hellblasters are better than plasma devs.

24" 2 versus 36" heavy D3 for less points

Me no understand please halp. The models look cool but I'm not seeing it.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/15 00:04:04


Post by: anticitizen013


 TedNugent wrote:
Can anyone please explain how hellblasters are better than plasma devs.

24" 2 versus 36" heavy D3 for less points

Me no understand please halp. The models look cool but I'm not seeing it.

Off the top of my head, there's a few reasons I can think of.

Mobility: Provided you don't take the heavy plasma incinerator (that's what it's called, right? I can't remember), you can move and fire. At 15" you're getting 2 shots guaranteed instead of 2 average. The caveat here is if they are stationary, they are getting the effect of Grim Resolve.
Durability: I would argue that they are slightly more durable, having 2 wounds. I say only slightly because there's a lot of things that have D2 (aka Autocannons).
Quantity: You can have a whole squad of them instead of max 4. This maximizes the strategem for bonus damage. To try to get the same amount of plasma spouting weapons, you'll need more than two squads which will cost either just under (~300 for two minimum squads with 4 Plasma Cannons vs 10 Hellblasters for 330).
Flexibility: Hellblasters aren't the worst in close combat either... they have base 2 attacks and a bonus bolt pistol as well.
Armour Penetration: Lastly, Hellblasters have -4 AP whereas Plasma Cannons have -3. That extra AP is pretty decent.

I'm sure there's another school of thought, but compared to regular marines, I personally think Primaris Marines win out. I would only take normal marines for specialized tasks (like Black Knights for example). Until Primaris versions come out... if they are ever let into the Inner Circle

Hope that helps!


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/15 00:05:04


Post by: Timur


 TedNugent wrote:
Can anyone please explain how hellblasters are better than plasma devs.

24" 2 versus 36" heavy D3 for less points

Me no understand please halp. The models look cool but I'm not seeing it.


Well, devastators may only have 4 plasma cannons which is 12 shots if you are lucky, hellblasters may take 10 plasma incinirators which range 30'' and 20 shots at 15'' which make Weapons of the dark age stratagem much more deadly, plus you can move them without getting any penalty


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/15 02:09:44


Post by: axisofentropy


 TedNugent wrote:
Can anyone please explain how hellblasters are better than plasma devs.

24" 2 versus 36" heavy D3 for less points

Me no understand please halp. The models look cool but I'm not seeing it.
they're not and I don't know why everyone is into them. And they only get 2 shots at 15".

10 model units of devastators and scouts are the biggest winners of Grim Resolve. Inceptors are the big winner of the plasma strategem, along with Black Knights who get other strategems. Dark Angels Hellblasters are not bad but don't live up to the hype.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/15 12:48:04


Post by: TedNugent


I see what people are saying with the +1 strategem, if used in tandem with rerolls on overcharge woukd be savage.

But thats more of an all in investment versus me rerolling 1s and overcharging each turn with some plasma devs. The strat is just a bonus for 3 damage a shot, no?

15 inch range, IDK man. Even if you drop a ten man how are you going to get in the captain bubble for rerolls. In that case you're what, strength 6 with 2 damage after the strategem, in 15 inches and wide out of cover?

Also, havent devs had bolt pistols for ages, with rerollable 1s on overwatch? Plasma cannons can also be overwatched now, and you can fire them at BS3 in a pinch for 42" threat range. You can also grab as many ablative wounds as you want.

And +1 damage on that unit is still nothing to sneeze at. Average of 8 shots at 3 damage, S8, rerolling 1s to hit and +1 to hit for auspex. That strikes me on surface as a very high damage rate for a relatively cheap unit requiring no support at 36".

I'll have to read into it when I get codex in hand but I'm gonna try plasma devs first before I buy any Primaris kits.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/15 12:56:45


Post by: Breng77


Plasma inceptors are better than either. 6 get 12D3 plasma shots (a min squad still gets 6D3), and have deepstrike, put a jump pack master with them (and lieutenant if you want). Now 6 it is significantly more expensive than the dev squad. SO if you are not looking for a super alpha strike unit it could be the way to go. The other advantage to inceptors is that they are less likely to be killed prior to shooting than the devs if you don't get turn 1.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/15 13:03:57


Post by: vonjankmon


Different roles for each unit I think. The Devastators are your long range punch, the HellBlasters are for close up work. When your opponent deep strikes a unit at your line the HellBlasters shine because they can move up double tap and then potentially charge into combat, which honestly is where the extra wound on each model shines because there are fewer close combat weapons that do 2+ damage.

If you want a gunline to blast away at a distance, the Devastators are the obvious choice, especially since you have 6 models worth of ablative wounds before losing plasma. At close range though, the HellBlasters are vastly superior because of their mobility, increased number of shots, and the extra AP that will really make sure your opponent is not getting saves.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/15 14:51:55


Post by: MilkmanAl


 vonjankmon wrote:
At close range though, the HellBlasters are vastly superior because of their mobility, increased number of shots, and the extra AP that will really make sure your opponent is not getting saves.
I like Hellblasters for exactly that reason. With the pace of gameplay in 8th, you're going to spend a lot of time within 15" of something, especially if you make it happen. Devs are a great source of cheap plasma, but I don't see myself running either of those units outside of Azrael's bubble. Given that, mobility is a huge perk for the Hellblasters (i.e., rapid fire>heavy weapons) since I'll be running my parking lot around trying to kite as much as possible. I'll give both a try, for sure, but I see Hellblasters being more useful for my style.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/15 18:32:22


Post by: Widied


Hellblasters are going to be amazing. They were already pretty good but now... I cannot wait to get five more!


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/15 19:17:28


Post by: Aaranis


I played a game yesterday at 2000 pts against new Dark Angels, list was as follow:

- Azraël
- Belial
- 10 Deathwing Terminators, storm bolters
- 5 Devastators with Cherubim and 4 missile launchers
- 10 Intercessors
- 10 Hellblasters with rapid-fire incinerators
- 10 Hellblasters with heavy incinerators, in an Imperial Bastion
- 2x 5 Scouts with sniper rifles

Not going to tell the whole battle, but here were my impressions of his army:

Azraël looks like a must-have, predictably enough (which saddens me because I dislike must-have characters like him or Cawl), he had him hid out of LoS, with the 10 Scouts and the 10 regular Hellblasters. The 4++ saved a few guys a handful of times, but the best was his rerolls. Thanks to that, amusingly enough, he killed me more units in Overwatch than with regular fire, and boy did that hurt.

He used the Weapons of the Dark Age stratagem a handful of times, and he was able to reliably scrap 9 Wounds off each Onager that way in two shooting phases with the same heavy Hellblasters. For 1 CP it's a no-brain stratagem, and Hellblasters use it exceptionally well, he destroyed my Rhino in one volley with the regular Hellblasters thanks to that.

He tried the Deathwing Assault stratagem with his 10 Termies for 3CP, but he admitted he used them wrongly and should have shot something else, because on my three Destroyers, with a 3+ save, 3W each and T5, he managed only to scratch two wounds with the first volley, and when he changed target at his shooting phase for my T7 Onager he didn't do much good neither. So, that is a stratagem to use only in optimal conditions in my eyes.

He kinda failed with Belial too sadly, he wanted to go for my Warlord but my brave Datasmith sallied forth to protect his beloved Kastelan Robots and got promptly munched by Belial. It gave me enough time to charge him with my Dominus and kill him in two CC turns, because of poor rolls from his part. So again, not a good example to give you.

He ended up winning 4-3 with only Azraël, 4 heavy Hellblasters and 3 Devastators left alive while I had kept my big guns and a few infantry alive, but too far to claim more points.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/15 19:30:09


Post by: necrontyrOG


 Aaranis wrote:
I played a game yesterday at 2000 pts against new Dark Angels, list was as follow:

- Azraël
- Belial
- 10 Deathwing Terminators, storm bolters
- 5 Devastators with Cherubim and 4 missile launchers
- 10 Intercessors
- 10 Hellblasters with rapid-fire incinerators
- 10 Hellblasters with heavy incinerators, in an Imperial Bastion
- 2x 5 Scouts with sniper rifles

Not going to tell the whole battle, but here were my impressions of his army:

Azraël looks like a must-have, predictably enough (which saddens me because I dislike must-have characters like him or Cawl), he had him hid out of LoS, with the 10 Scouts and the 10 regular Hellblasters. The 4++ saved a few guys a handful of times, but the best was his rerolls. Thanks to that, amusingly enough, he killed me more units in Overwatch than with regular fire, and boy did that hurt.

He used the Weapons of the Dark Age stratagem a handful of times, and he was able to reliably scrap 9 Wounds off each Onager that way in two shooting phases with the same heavy Hellblasters. For 1 CP it's a no-brain stratagem, and Hellblasters use it exceptionally well, he destroyed my Rhino in one volley with the regular Hellblasters thanks to that.

He tried the Deathwing Assault stratagem with his 10 Termies for 3CP, but he admitted he used them wrongly and should have shot something else, because on my three Destroyers, with a 3+ save, 3W each and T5, he managed only to scratch two wounds with the first volley, and when he changed target at his shooting phase for my T7 Onager he didn't do much good neither. So, that is a stratagem to use only in optimal conditions in my eyes.

He kinda failed with Belial too sadly, he wanted to go for my Warlord but my brave Datasmith sallied forth to protect his beloved Kastelan Robots and got promptly munched by Belial. It gave me enough time to charge him with my Dominus and kill him in two CC turns, because of poor rolls from his part. So again, not a good example to give you.

He ended up winning 4-3 with only Azraël, 4 heavy Hellblasters and 3 Devastators left alive while I had kept my big guns and a few infantry alive, but too far to claim more points.


Sounds like a good, close game between two updated armies with codexes.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 01:45:08


Post by: bobafett012


I took my Deathwing to a small 11 man 40k GT at my local shop. Ended up placing 3rd, went 2-1. Lost to a guard player with a Shadowsword. Failed aversion the first 2 turns against it and it pretty much finished me off. Played a salamanders Terminator heavy army and a Mortarian DG army as well.

Fun day. Knights were only a factor in 1 game, pretty much got mulched 3/3 games before they could even get into CC. Without a delivery system I'm just thinking they aren't worth taking. Deathwing Assault is definitely over priced.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 03:28:02


Post by: Gibblets


I've had a look through of my own copy and watched a couple of reviews earlier in the week. Am I alone in thinking the 8th edition Codex isn't fit to lick the boots of the 7th edition codex. This book has been so genericized to sell Primaris models that it barely has a flavour beyond Codex Space Marines. It only has that because of a few and mostly nerfed (since 7th) unique models. Admech level here we come.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 04:31:02


Post by: ZergSmasher


 Gibblets wrote:
I've had a look through of my own copy and watched a couple of reviews earlier in the week. Am I alone in thinking the 8th edition Codex isn't fit to lick the boots of the 7th edition codex. This book has been so genericized to sell Primaris models that it barely has a flavour beyond Codex Space Marines. It only has that because of a few and mostly nerfed (since 7th) unique models. Admech level here we come.

I think this an overreaction. I think there's enough flavor here to make some builds that regular Marines wouldn't do, like plasma-heavy stuff. I might say it's more like Death Guard compared to regular Chaos Marines. Some units in common, and some stuff unique to Dark Angels. We've still got the best bikes, and our terminators are actually decent if not optimal for super-competitive play. Our special characters are all pretty good, as well. I think we'll have multiple viable competitive builds, and not just involving Primaris marines. I for one am looking forward to trying it out and seeing how it does.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 07:03:54


Post by: axisofentropy


I've updated the OP with points and rules changes now that I've got my codex.

Now we need to author strategy and tactics. Start writing paragraphs and I'll add stuff to the OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Agreed Dark Angels do have the best bikes and terminators, for what that's worth.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 09:04:07


Post by: SGHarker


Can it really be, I can not get a Darkangels Librarian on a bike?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 12:09:13


Post by: Aelyn


SGHarker wrote:
Can it really be, I can not get a Darkangels Librarian on a bike?
Neither the Librarian on Bike nor the Interrogator-Chaplain on Bike datasheet exist in the Codex. As such, if you want to use one, you have to use the Index version instead.

I was worried at first because I always ran an Interrogator-Chaplain on Bike with the Mace of Redemption in the past few editions, and I was worried I wouldn't be able to do that now. But I still can.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 13:21:48


Post by: MilkmanAl


This codex just screams "Alpha strike!" to me. I can't get away from it. I think Black knights are going to outperform most people's expectations, especially with SotR backing them up. They're not amazing in combat for the cost, but they can certainly dust up some infantry or small medium-tough units on the charge without too much issue. It's the combo of spewing plasma at stuff then either charging a lesser target they can pick on or finishing off the plasma target that'll really push them over the top. Extreme mobility plus power is a potent combo!


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 15:18:59


Post by: Breng77


My issue with black knights is why buy them when I can take normal plasma bikes? The seem worse for more points. The advantages to knights seem like the ability to advance and shoot (at -1 bs) and be a bit better in combat. But they give up shooting to do it.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 15:28:35


Post by: MilkmanAl


Well, I think BK will actually end up being a lot better in combat. With an extra attack, strength, and -1 AP, they'll do far better for the cost than normal bikers against most things you'd be targeting with either unit. You can also make your CP for the plasma strat go considerably farther with BK, which may be a moot point, depending on the rest of your army, I suppose.

edit: I guess you lose a good deal of durability taking BK over regular bikes, though. For me, it's a tough call. Either way, I like the thought of dumping some Inceptors in behind the bike lines to plasma away some juicy target(s). That'll be a really expensive but tough nut to crack for most armies, I think. Maybe the staying power of regular bikers is better?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 15:31:00


Post by: Frozocrone


 Aaranis wrote:
I played a game yesterday at 2000 pts against new Dark Angels, list was as follow:

- Azraël
- Belial
- 10 Deathwing Terminators, storm bolters
- 5 Devastators with Cherubim and 4 missile launchers
- 10 Intercessors
- 10 Hellblasters with rapid-fire incinerators
- 10 Hellblasters with heavy incinerators, in an Imperial Bastion
- 2x 5 Scouts with sniper rifles

Not going to tell the whole battle, but here were my impressions of his army:

Azraël looks like a must-have, predictably enough (which saddens me because I dislike must-have characters like him or Cawl), he had him hid out of LoS, with the 10 Scouts and the 10 regular Hellblasters. The 4++ saved a few guys a handful of times, but the best was his rerolls. Thanks to that, amusingly enough, he killed me more units in Overwatch than with regular fire, and boy did that hurt.

He used the Weapons of the Dark Age stratagem a handful of times, and he was able to reliably scrap 9 Wounds off each Onager that way in two shooting phases with the same heavy Hellblasters. For 1 CP it's a no-brain stratagem, and Hellblasters use it exceptionally well, he destroyed my Rhino in one volley with the regular Hellblasters thanks to that.

He tried the Deathwing Assault stratagem with his 10 Termies for 3CP, but he admitted he used them wrongly and should have shot something else, because on my three Destroyers, with a 3+ save, 3W each and T5, he managed only to scratch two wounds with the first volley, and when he changed target at his shooting phase for my T7 Onager he didn't do much good neither. So, that is a stratagem to use only in optimal conditions in my eyes.

He kinda failed with Belial too sadly, he wanted to go for my Warlord but my brave Datasmith sallied forth to protect his beloved Kastelan Robots and got promptly munched by Belial. It gave me enough time to charge him with my Dominus and kill him in two CC turns, because of poor rolls from his part. So again, not a good example to give you.

He ended up winning 4-3 with only Azraël, 4 heavy Hellblasters and 3 Devastators left alive while I had kept my big guns and a few infantry alive, but too far to claim more points.


I don't play Dark Angels but this was a pretty interesting read.

Not too sure about the Devastators and 4 Missile Launchers, considering he had 20 Hellblasters. Might have been worth it sticking them with Heavy Bolters (or using just one and the Hellfire rounds strategem to plink a few Mortal Wounds where needed on a 2+ with signum, assuming Dark Angels got that strategem).


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 16:14:23


Post by: Breng77


MilkmanAl wrote:
Well, I think BK will actually end up being a lot better in combat. With an extra attack, strength, and -1 AP, they'll do far better for the cost than normal bikers against most things you'd be targeting with either unit. You can also make your CP for the plasma strat go considerably farther with BK, which may be a moot point, depending on the rest of your army, I suppose.

edit: I guess you lose a good deal of durability taking BK over regular bikes, though. For me, it's a tough call. Either way, I like the thought of dumping some Inceptors in behind the bike lines to plasma away some juicy target(s). That'll be a really expensive but tough nut to crack for most armies, I think. Maybe the staying power of regular bikers is better?


In big units maybe the strat is a reason, but they are sub par overall as a target for the strat. As for combat, they are better, but unless you take
a big squad they still aren't great. Against most things I'd rather have 12 bolster shots to the extra cc power.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 16:44:28


Post by: MilkmanAl


The more I'm thinking about this, it seems like most of the strategies I've had in mind for bikers involve them being meat shields and pesky things to tie down a big area. If I'm going to use SotR anyway, it doesn't make all that much difference that BK can shoot when advancing. I guess I'd be better off ramming normal bikes up the board ASAP and dropping Inceptors in their wake, if it's an early plasma assault I'm after. It's more points that way, but I'd get max potential out of both strats and wouldn't have to worry as much about the bikes getting counter-charged the following turn. I have to assume the bolter fire is sufficient to cover the difference in combat ability between BK and regular bikes for a few rounds, as you said.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 16:55:07


Post by: axisofentropy


That's my plan. Block off parts of the board with bikes and maybe Deathwing, then move up plasma inceptors, black knights, and HQ behind them.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 17:02:08


Post by: MilkmanAl


Here's a list I'm toying with. The overall idea is to hem in your opponent ASAP if he has a static force or to react quickly with bikes and counter-drops if he has a highly mobile or drop-heavy list. Inceptors can drop in near either of the characters for rerolled 1s. Sammael goes with the bikes to wall off a large part of the board, and the DWT and DWK come in opposite or adjoining them to complete the area denial. Scouts are for drop insurance, objectives, and potentially a small measure of additional crowd control. Belial Takes MoM to mitigate how ludicrously slow DWK are. DWT are all in one unit in case you want to pop DW Assault, but you should have plenty of crowd control without that. It's probably more useful to save those CP for plasma and SotR. The 16 extra points can go towards special weapons on the bikes and/or Watchers for the DW units.

Battalion
Belial - 150 (Warlord)
Sammael on Sableclaw - 213
10 RWB - 270
6 Inceptors - plasma - 354
3x5 Scouts - 165
1152
10 DWT - 2 assault cannons - 432
8 DWK - 400
1984 total


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 17:13:28


Post by: axisofentropy


Belial can't choose MoM, he must take Huntsman Warlord trait.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 17:16:15


Post by: bobafett012


Sadly Belial's warlord trait is awful. It would be one thing if at least he had a special gun, even a storm bolter with -1 AP or something, it's literally a bog standard storm bolter, so having him as actual warlord is pointless.

When I played I took a Libby in term armor and made him MoM. Problem is, if your wanting to run Belial and Sammael, plus a expensive units like BKs and DWT or DWK, your probably not going to have the points for a 3rd HQ.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 17:24:29


Post by: MilkmanAl


Awwwww weaksauce. I didn't know that. Well, that makes the DWK on foot a huge gamble. They'd still be great for area denial, but who knows if they'd actually get to charge anything. Hmmm...


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 18:50:50


Post by: ZergSmasher


MilkmanAl wrote:
Awwwww weaksauce. I didn't know that. Well, that makes the DWK on foot a huge gamble. They'd still be great for area denial, but who knows if they'd actually get to charge anything. Hmmm...

That's why DWK should run in a Land Raider Crusader. They have a better chance of getting into combat that way. And our Land Raiders are less likely to get their shooting shut down thanks to our fall back and shoot stratagem. I'll probably try the DWK+Asmodai+DW Ancient bomb sometime; it could be really good. If your opponent focuses down the Land Raider, he's ignoring your Black Knights, Hellblasters, Plasma Inceptors, or whatever other nasty thing you've got raining hell on his army. Land Raiders themselves are actually very tough vehicles; the toughest in the game short of a superheavy like a Baneblade.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 20:26:18


Post by: Breng77


MilkmanAl wrote:
The more I'm thinking about this, it seems like most of the strategies I've had in mind for bikers involve them being meat shields and pesky things to tie down a big area. If I'm going to use SotR anyway, it doesn't make all that much difference that BK can shoot when advancing. I guess I'd be better off ramming normal bikes up the board ASAP and dropping Inceptors in their wake, if it's an early plasma assault I'm after. It's more points that way, but I'd get max potential out of both strats and wouldn't have to worry as much about the bikes getting counter-charged the following turn. I have to assume the bolter fire is sufficient to cover the difference in combat ability between BK and regular bikes for a few rounds, as you said.


Especially since IMO you often don't want to be the one charging. If we assume you get into charge range with these 2 units

1.) 3 Bikers 2 Plasma Combi- plasma
2.) 3 Black knights

In shooting you get

1.) 6 Plasma shots, 12 Bolter shots (assuming you don't fire both parts of the combi)
2.) 6 Plasma shots

So if we were shooting at MEQ

The bikers do 3 plasma wounds + 4 bolter wounds, probably 4 dead marines
The black knights do 3 plasma wounds, probably 3 dead marines

If both units charge the bikers get 4 attacks and likely do nothing, the Black knights get 7 attacks, so 4-5 hits, 3 wounds, so 1 dead marine. So they come out about equal.

If they don't charge the bikers have a much better overwatch with 14 bolter shots + the plasma.

The bikers are also cheaper I believe. Against Chaff this swings way more in favor of the bikers because they get more attacks overall.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 21:12:10


Post by: Aaranis


Hey so I've been coming up with a first draft list for my first Dark Angel force, at 1500 pts. It'll be mostly constructed around the contents of 3 Dark Vengeance boxes, since I'll be getting these for a bargain soon.

Battalion Detachment +3 CP

- Azraël (Warlord);
- Ezekiel;

- 5 TACs with plasma gun;
- 5 TACs;
- 5 Sniper Scouts;

- 3 Ravenwing bikes, 1 plasma gun;
- 3 Ravenwing bikes, 1 plasma gun;

- 5 Deathwing Terminators;
- 5 Deathwing Knights;

- 10 Hellblasters with plasma incinerator

The idea is to have Azraël running alongside the Hellblasters, for rerolls and the 4++, to deal with high Toughness targets. Snipers scouts camp either an objective on my side, or just a ruin, near Azrael if he doesn't need to move too much, so as to deal with Characters and such. The TACs do objective camping too, or go support the rest of my army if there's no need for more camping. The bikes go harass the flanks and the enemy backfield support units, while clearing the chaff a bit to let the rest of my army move easily. Terminators drop where it's hot to dispose of the infantry with their Storm Bolters (I don't plan on using the Stratagem, too expensive for what it does), and if it's clear they'll be free to go punch something worthy. Meanwhile, I drop my Knights where needed and go after the tough stuff, supported by Righteous Repugnance casted by Ezekiel who shouldn't be too far away.

Thoughts on this ? I think my weaknesses are actually having Ezekiel close by the Knights (I just thought about that right now), and getting them to charge successfully. TACs aren't exceptional I know, but I'll have 30 of them so they'll fill my Troops choices until I get more Scouts and/or Intercessors. What do you guys think about Intercessors now that they're 18 pts/head ? In the few games where I got to shot them I found them quite resilient to small arms fire, and I believe they could be great objective holders due to their resilience, more than TACs and especially Scouts anyway. I'm thinking about those no-LoS artillery that could easily shot 5 Scouts to death in the end of the game to deny me points.

In future (and bigger) lists I'd like to include a bunch of Land Speeders, be it the regular ones with a Multi-Melta or a Vengeance, supported by either a Darkshroud, Sammael on Jetbike, or even both. I really like the aesthetics of Land Speeders so I believe I'll drop the bikes in favour of those. Knights are also one of my favourite units, I'd really like to see them work, supported by an Ancient and Ezekiel to provide Righteous Repugnance and Denies against Smites. Is a Land Raider Crusader really mandatory for them to work ? Also, what are they best against ? Vehicles, monsters, both ?

Thanks in advance for helping me out, lots of good info in this thread !


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 21:33:29


Post by: MilkmanAl


That's why DWK should run in a Land Raider Crusader.
Absolutely true, but that's 330 points of vehicle I have to figure out how to shoehorn into the list - not the easiest task in the world. I was hoping that 28 large-ish models would be enough to at least pin down SOMETHING long enough charge it. Incidentally, the statistical difference between rerolling the lowest die and rerolling both dice for making a 9" charge is like 1%, so not having a MoM warlord with the knights is really only going to cost you a CP to gain the same level of effect. It's the advancing and rerolling subsequent charges that's really nice for those poor plodding bastards.

Biker math and stuff
That's fairly convincing by me. I try to run as much Deathwing as possible, so crowd control is always at a premium. Hard to pass up a bunch of mobile bolters that double as massive speed bumps.





Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/17 21:36:42


Post by: IandI


I for one will never be taking to the field without a Company Champion to hang out with my other foot mobile characters. At 44 points he is a ridiculously good value. My second favorite new toy is the Ravenwing Talonmaster, he has more firepower than 2 Razorbacks, and if you give him the Heavenfall Blade he is a rock solid "do everything well" character. Very fast, provides a nice buff, loads of dakka, respectable melee skills, and best of all he can't be shot at easily.

I haven't yet figured out a way to NOT justify taking both of these guys.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/18 02:41:05


Post by: Formosa


I'm going to be testing this tomorrow

bob with power sword, storm Bolter
Chaplain dreadnought, assault cannon

10 deathwing terminators, 2 assault cannons, combat squading
10 deathwing terminators, 5 thunder hammers, storm shields, 2 assault cannons, combat sqauding
Doreto dread, heavy Bolter, hellfire plasma carronade, ailos missile launcher
Doreto dread, hellfire plasma carronade, heavy Bolter, ailos missile launcher
6 deathwing knights

The doreto dreads will move and advance up if nessary to get in range, they rr 1 to hit as dreads due to dark angel tactics when stationary and add the relic of old night strat they should put a big dent in high wound models (5 shots damage 3/4 with relics), seems pretty solid, the chaplain dread is just because I like it and I will spend a cp to make it deathwing so it gets bobs re rolls, it adds +1 to any friendly units in combat with it so it's are 14 and terminators are str 10, also seems fairly good for cost, the rest of the army is just what I've managed to dig out after I moved, I know mono deathwing isn't good at the moment but I'm a glutton for pain and love my deathwing.

I'll let you guys know how it does.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/18 13:14:17


Post by: Grizzyzz


So I ran ravenwing at a local 1500 this past weekend.

list was... OUTRIDER
Sammuel corvax
RW Ancient
2x 5 RW bikers, pwr swrd sarge
2x 6 black knights
Dark shroud
Nephilim, twin lascannon

New book was allowed which was nice. I went 1-2, but after including Paint score, and sportsmanship, I ended up pulling out 3rd overall!

Round 1: Matching with Alaitoc Eldar for their shenanigans. Between smite, Jinx, and reroll hits/wounds, and auto hits -4 2D weapons... i had no shot at all. got tabled by turn 3.

Round 2: Blood angels dbl deathco alpha list. Super strong alpha strike, I had limited screening to my RW bikes. What i really needed was 2 scout squads to bubble out deepstrike. I will find a way to do this in the future. THis was a super fun game, it was a total 12 rounds in the ring type that went down to scraps on the board.

Round 3: Another BA matchup. This time a terminator themed list. Perfect matchup for me. I was able to work objectives while easily kiting the termies and just popping the Plasma strategem or overcharging with sammuel buffs to just wipe them out.

So.. having played this using Speed of the raven and the plasma strat etc. The plasma strategem is the beez kneez. It is extremely good, and is never bad. Speed of the raven was ok? Im sure it is good in certain situations, but I found the black knights just didn't quite do enough damage in squads of 6. It was difficult to get them to advance and get the charge off with the acnient nearby to give them the attacks they need and similarly so keeping sammuel near for rerolls. If you have a squad of 10 OR you have a deployment map that is setup for better success, then maybe this is a turn 1 alpha strat.. But by round 3... i found it much better to be used more as a way to get your 4++ and not lose out on offense.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/18 13:20:08


Post by: vonjankmon


I think the question of normal bikers vs Black Knights comes down to the jink save. The Black Knights can advance for the 4+ invul while still firing, the Ravenwing bikers have to choose between firing and the 4+ invul.

I'm honestly not sure right now, which is better. The Black Knights are a lot more expensive, especially now that the normal bikers went down significantly in cost but being able to advance each turn and still fire, along with packing a better punch in CC may make them worth it.

Can you reserve the Black Knights? Totally blanking on the reserve rules currently but if you can't I think that may be the deciding factor to pass on them because your opponent could alpha strike them off the board first turn before they had a chance to advance for jink.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/18 14:07:15


Post by: Breng77


 vonjankmon wrote:
I think the question of normal bikers vs Black Knights comes down to the jink save. The Black Knights can advance for the 4+ invul while still firing, the Ravenwing bikers have to choose between firing and the 4+ invul.

I'm honestly not sure right now, which is better. The Black Knights are a lot more expensive, especially now that the normal bikers went down significantly in cost but being able to advance each turn and still fire, along with packing a better punch in CC may make them worth it.

Can you reserve the Black Knights? Totally blanking on the reserve rules currently but if you can't I think that may be the deciding factor to pass on them because your opponent could alpha strike them off the board first turn before they had a chance to advance for jink.


You cannot reserve them, except in 1 mission from CA I think. You can only reserve units if they have a reserve rule. I do find the advance and shoot decent, the issue is the -1 is a decent reduction in their shooting (obviously less than not shooting at all from regular bikes), but if you are doing it all the time a squad of 3 black knights is looking at never overcharging (-1 to hit hurts a lot for overcharging) and hitting 3 times with plasma, for almost 150 points. The 4+ is nice but remember against anything not -2 or higher it doesn't matter (so autocannons still are bad news), against -2 it is only a +1 to save. So really it is only a big deal against -3 and -4. If they had a rule to not have the penalty to shooting while advancing, they might be worth considering, but with it they just don't do enough damage. Also remember without using a stratagem, they cannot advance and charge so their better close combat loses out at that point.

I look at it this way, is Jink + shooting worth it. I really don't think it is because black knights don't have a high rate of fire for their points. A 10 man squad that advances is looking at paying 400+ points for 10 plasma hits. Or you are spending a stratagem at which point the advantage is the plasma because a bike squad could do the exact same thing. I view the advance and Shoot from BK to be a small bonus, while you are getting into range, after that I'm not sure you want to give up on your shooting.

Now maybe with sammi with re-rolls this changes somewhat, but I think more often Jink is going to be used turn 1 while you get into position then you won't jink while you deliver your punch on the next turn because you will want to be as effective as possible.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/18 15:26:15


Post by: Spoletta


MilkmanAl wrote:
Awwwww weaksauce. I didn't know that. Well, that makes the DWK on foot a huge gamble. They'd still be great for area denial, but who knows if they'd actually get to charge anything. Hmmm...


Yeah MoM is nice, but i consider the hunt to be even better, and i'm talking about the pile in portion of it. Try it, it is sick what you can do with it.
Also, remember than you can exploit enemy characters to reroll your charges.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/18 16:07:21


Post by: Grizzyzz


There are a couple things to consider as well with bikes w/ plasma vs black knights. All theory math is assuming that bikes are in rapid fire range and no consideration at all for total threat range.

Black knights have a 6" advantage on their max shots effectiveness over normal bikes. Additionally, being able to shoot after advancing (and now shoot and charge after advancing with SotR) makes their total threat range ALOT more deadly.

When you start building around strategems like Weapons of the dark age, a Larger unit of black knights starts taking much higher advantage of these.

Addtionally, Dont worry about the -1 to hit... if you are running black knights you are going to have Sammuel.. and if you have Sammuel.. you are rerolling all your hits anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am just starting out with this, 2 squads of 6 knights was pretty good. Unsure if its the optimal for cost/productivity. only play testing will show that.

I think the best overall is a combination of Black knights and RW bikes supporting them though! Spamming one unit in 8th just asks for hard counters.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/18 16:10:05


Post by: Egyptian Space Zombie


I'm looking at adding a Forge World model to my Dark Angels army. What do you guys suggest? I was leaning towards a Sicaran, with maybe a Leviathan coming in second place. The Spartan looks pretty cool too. What are the standout Forge World units? Also maybe what's fun to assemble? Are any of those notoriously difficult to build?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/18 18:06:52


Post by: Breng77


 Grizzyzz wrote:
There are a couple things to consider as well with bikes w/ plasma vs black knights. All theory math is assuming that bikes are in rapid fire range and no consideration at all for total threat range.

Black knights have a 6" advantage on their max shots effectiveness over normal bikes. Additionally, being able to shoot after advancing (and now shoot and charge after advancing with SotR) makes their total threat range ALOT more deadly.

When you start building around strategems like Weapons of the dark age, a Larger unit of black knights starts taking much higher advantage of these.

Addtionally, Dont worry about the -1 to hit... if you are running black knights you are going to have Sammuel.. and if you have Sammuel.. you are rerolling all your hits anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am just starting out with this, 2 squads of 6 knights was pretty good. Unsure if its the optimal for cost/productivity. only play testing will show that.

I think the best overall is a combination of Black knights and RW bikes supporting them though! Spamming one unit in 8th just asks for hard counters.


Well I mean bikes can use the stratagem as well. But not for as large a unit of plasma. The 6" extra threat matters a bit, but it is not too difficult to get into rapid fire range. Bikes have a 26" max threat range if you don't use the stratagem, vs 38" for the knights. But their max effective threat range is also their max threat range period. Where as bikes max threat range is 44", and without stratagem is also 38", they just shoot a bit less plasma

Knights do make better use of stratagems, but large units are also prime targets for enemy firepower.


I think the -1 to hit still matters because even with Sammi you are missing on 3s the first time around and 1-3 on the re-roll. He helps but it matters to overall output, and especially for overcharging risk.

Unless you are building mono-ravenwing I think knights are a sub optimal choice for weapons of the dark age due to their cost. Personally I have been looking at Inceptors with bikes for support as I think that combination is more points efficient than the knights.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/18 18:09:56


Post by: Maelstrom808


I often run a Leviathan with storm cannon arrays. Great looking model and effective against a wide variety of targets. My biggest issue with him was opponents tying him up in combat. Now we have a strategem to deal with that issue. Very nice assembly too.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/18 20:13:07


Post by: Grizzyzz


Breng77 wrote:

I think the -1 to hit still matters because even with Sammi you are missing on 3s the first time around and 1-3 on the re-roll. He helps but it matters to overall output, and especially for overcharging risk.

Unless you are building mono-ravenwing I think knights are a sub optimal choice for weapons of the dark age due to their cost. Personally I have been looking at Inceptors with bikes for support as I think that combination is more points efficient than the knights.


I will have to play a few more games to comment more on the -1 to hit. I only lost 3 bikes in total through three rounds to getting hot on plasma. even with advancing. Maybe i got lucky

Have you used the Inceptors yet? I was considering them as well as an alternative. 2d3 i belive is their plasma? and much cheaper now after CA dropped.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/18 20:42:41


Post by: Breng77


I have, they murder stuff. They are 2D3 shots each, so 3 get 6D3 (12 shots average) or 6 get 12D3 shots (24 shots). They basically always get to pick their target. now they only really ever get re-roll 1s (unless you want to shell out for a pod with Azzy in it). But most times that is enough, I used a Jump pack master, and Lieutenant, and dropped them in, with 6 Inceptors. From a pure damage output standpoint (per point) they are the best target for weapons of the dark age. With re-rolls I think they average something like 14.5 wounds (against T5-7), so with the stratagem that is around 43 damage. So you can split fire them at several different squads if possible and wreck face.

For the sake of completeness
10 Helblasters at 15" range do 36 damage (points are close to the same I think inceptors are 14 points more).)/ 10 black knights are about the same as the helblasters but at 18" but they cost considerably more (almost 100 points more I think.)

Now the Inceptors are less durable per point (only 12 wounds, vs 20), but basically always gets to shoot at full effectiveness without taking any damage.

After the 1 time I took a full squad I think taking 2 x3 is a better choice. Your drop is not so brutal, but it gives you 2 turns of drops to do damage, and if they die it is not such a huge loss.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also a squad of 6 Black Knights firing at -1 to hit, with re-rolls.

First salvo on average has 4 overheats from 12 shots (2 other misses). Then you re-roll and likely 1 dies (at -1 to hit 1 out of 3 shots kills a bike). So if through 3 rounds 3 bikes is about right for each squad that overheats.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/18 21:31:18


Post by: Sydrian


Do DA even have access to a Lieutenant that can take a jump pack? I haven't seen the new Codex yet, but I'm pretty sure they only have access to the Primaris Lieutenant in the Index, and you can't give the Primaris Lt a jump pack.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/18 21:36:25


Post by: Terrisin


DA does indeed have access to non-Primaris Lt's. Looking at it in the codex now.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/18 23:29:49


Post by: axisofentropy


Yes non-primaris lieutenants are in the codex and yes they can take jump packs.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/19 02:40:16


Post by: pessa


Probably a silly question, but for the Talonmaster does one simply convert a regular Landspeeder?

I know most people think they're crap, but I'm really enjoying my Hbolter/assault cannon speeders.

They might be even more fun with a master attached...


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/19 03:07:19


Post by: axisofentropy


pessa wrote:
Probably a silly question, but for the Talonmaster does one simply convert a regular Landspeeder?

I know most people think they're crap, but I'm really enjoying my Hbolter/assault cannon speeders.

They might be even more fun with a master attached...
Yes there's an old "Ravenwing upgrade sprue" with the double bolter and cannons. It goes onto a normal speeder. it's still on GW's site https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Dark-Angels-Ravenwing-Accessory-Pack


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/19 03:24:02


Post by: Maelstrom808


Just a note on the RWB vs RWK discussion - this unit is illegal in the new book:

Breng77 wrote:

1.) 3 Bikers 2 Plasma Combi- plasma


A RWB Sgt can't take a combi weapon. He only has access to the melee and pistols weapon lists. You can give him a plasma pistol, but you have only one shot with it at 12" and you lose your twin bolter shots from him.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/19 03:49:33


Post by: pessa


 axisofentropy wrote:
pessa wrote:
Probably a silly question, but for the Talonmaster does one simply convert a regular Landspeeder?

I know most people think they're crap, but I'm really enjoying my Hbolter/assault cannon speeders.

They might be even more fun with a master attached...
Yes there's an old "Ravenwing upgrade sprue" with the double bolter and cannons. It goes onto a normal speeder. it's still on GW's site https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Dark-Angels-Ravenwing-Accessory-Pack


Good to know. Ta


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/19 04:58:28


Post by: Timur


After being completely destroyed by tyranids, i'm thinking of what could be good list against them, what tactics to use and so on?

Another question is how viable are dreadnought options for a DA amy? Repulsors?

Since i'm running 10 hellblasters in my list it seems that a repulsor is an autotake to protect them from turn one combos

I'm not looking for tailoring my list to counter tyranids, just looking for some advice on which units would be effective against them.







Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/19 08:12:52


Post by: Spoletta


Aggressors are a counter to nids in general.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/19 09:15:57


Post by: Timur


has anyone seen the codex? seems like DA intercessors sergeants are able to carry a power sword in addition to other weapons, wonder if that means they can take boltrifle, pistol and the sword


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/19 11:23:45


Post by: Breng77


 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Just a note on the RWB vs RWK discussion - this unit is illegal in the new book:

Breng77 wrote:

1.) 3 Bikers 2 Plasma Combi- plasma


A RWB Sgt can't take a combi weapon. He only has access to the melee and pistols weapon lists. You can give him a plasma pistol, but you have only one shot with it at 12" and you lose your twin bolter shots from him.


Good to know that hurts especially when space marine biker sarges can get combo weapons.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/19 12:43:20


Post by: Zustiur


Timur wrote:
has anyone seen the codex? seems like DA intercessors sergeants are able to carry a power sword in addition to other weapons, wonder if that means they can take boltrifle, pistol and the sword

He has the option to take it as an additional weapon. Yes.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/19 13:11:36


Post by: Swillsswil


Had my first codex game a couple days ago, vs Space Wolves no less! Wanted to try out a lot of new stuff. My list was:
Sammael
Talonmaster
5x bolter scouts
5x bolter scouts
5x sniper scouts w heavy bolter
5x deathwing w cyclone
Ravenwing apothecary
Darkshroud
6x black knights
10x hellblasters
Dark talon
Imperial bastion

I put the hellblasters in the bastion because with grim resolve they can reroll 1s without a master. All 10 hellblasters stayed alive and deleted a unit every turn. MVP of the battle.

Talonmaster was sick and was a major force multiplier for himself, Sammy, and the dark talon.

Deathwing accomplished very little sadly, though they did punch a lasback to death toward the end.

I remain meh on sniper scouts. They accomplished nothing and I'm thinking intercessors with stalkers would accomplish more as home objective holders, despite costing more.

Dark talon was great. Only had to hover near the end to stay in buff bubbles, but by then all anti-flyer threats were neutralized.

The black knights took a rough hit from 10 combiplasma wolf guard and only left with sarge thanks to jink. Amazing durability considering 20 overcharged shots.

Very happy with the codex so far.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/19 13:34:29


Post by: Timur


Seems like our regular termies are trash. 200+ points for bolter shots and one heavy weapon(squad of 5) and a power fist which is rarely uefull


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/19 13:56:24


Post by: MilkmanAl


I disagree about Terminators. I've had pretty good luck with 10 of them dropping in and anchoring a flank. Granted, I support them with Belial for rerolls. They're quite effective in combat and have enough firepower to be useful. They're jacks of all trades and attract a ton of attention when dropped in a threatening place. If you can manage to execute a hammer-and-anvil style attack, they're a huge pain in the butt since your opponent won't be able to run from them.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/19 15:24:22


Post by: Timur


MilkmanAl wrote:
I disagree about Terminators. I've had pretty good luck with 10 of them dropping in and anchoring a flank. Granted, I support them with Belial for rerolls. They're quite effective in combat and have enough firepower to be useful. They're jacks of all trades and attract a ton of attention when dropped in a threatening place. If you can manage to execute a hammer-and-anvil style attack, they're a huge pain in the butt since your opponent won't be able to run from them.


Thats the thing, you need 10 of them in one drop and some rerolls for optimal performance, but thats a whole lot of points for bolter shots and powerfists that will be usefull only if you make the charge rolls, which you probably wont on the turn you dropped them. They are jacks of all trades and masters of none, there are better options for chaff clearing and anti tank in my opinion.
However i think catapracti terminators could be very deadly if droppen behind enemy lines, the 4+ invul and the stratagem that gives an additional round of shooting=80 bolter shots could deal much damage


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/19 17:54:15


Post by: MilkmanAl


They are jacks of all trades and masters of none, there are better options for chaff clearing and anti tank in my opinion.
Cataphractii are an interesting choice. As I mentioned, I mostly use my Terminators to flank and press my opponent into a box. Catphractii would be good at that, as far as being an immovable object is concerned. The problem is that they're so bloody slow and can't even forfeit their shooting to reposition if you wanted them to. I also like having a heavy weapon in the unit to provide a little extra punch against medium targets. I'm not sure the durability is worth the speed loss.

I honestly don't think I'd bother with Terminators at all if I wasn't going to commit to them. It's too easy to overwhelm a single 5-man unit with either mid-strength fire or worthless screening models, and hitting on 4's is too unreliable to make them titan-killers. It's also too easy to simply run away from them. they don't push enough damage through just shooting to be worth hassling with if you have other more worthwhile targets.

On the other hand, you can take up a substantial part of the board with 10 Terminators and Belial. I'm planning to run some DWK and RW bikers in addition to those guys, so I'll basically be able to lock down whatever I need to, as long as it's on the board and not flying. Again, I don't feel like they're worthwhile choice if you're not planning on using area denial as a primary tactic to get your units where you want them to be, but since I probably am, they're golden!


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/19 19:53:00


Post by: anticitizen013


Here's my rough list so far with a total of 1998 points.

Battalion
Asmodai
Ezekiel (or normal Librarian)
2x5 Bolter Scouts
2x5 Sniper Scouts
Stormraven (Twin AssCan, Twin HB, Hurricane Bolters & Stormstrike ML)
5 Deathwing Knights

Outrider
Sammael on Corvex
Talonmaster
5 Ravenwing Bikes (2 Plasma Guns)
5 Black Knights
Darkshroud

I'd like to fit in a Chaplain Dread, but I'd have to remove some things and play around with others. But the idea is the Stormraven sits near the Darkshroud whilst carrying the Knights, Asmodai, and Ezekiel (and the Chaplain Dread if I can swing it) for a cool -2 to hit if I don't get first turn. First turn it flies up, shoots stuff and hangs out while the rest of the fast movers move up and shoot and possibly assault depending on the army I'm facing/the deployment. 2nd turn the Stormraven unloads everything as close as possible to what they need to destroy and within auras of as much as possible. Scouts deploy to disrupt deep striking/provide a speed bump/on objectives.

The Knights buffed with all of those characters are really going to put a dent in pretty much anything. Sure it's expensive, but having the Stormraven put them exactly where they need to go (and closer than 9" to make charging far easier) is going to be a huge distraction carnifex.

Of course this all looks good on paper, but a general strategy is nice (when it works...).


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/19 22:36:27


Post by: Aleister_Dakka


Hey, I'm new to 40k still and just wanted to run a rough draft of a list by ya'll to see if it would work:

Belial
2x 5 Deathwing Terminators, each with an Assault Cannon
1x 5 Deathwing Knights

Azrael
Lieutenant
10x Hellblasters
Repulsor
3x 5 Troops (could be Scouts, Intercessors, or Tac Squads with Lascannons)

My plan was to use Weapons from the Dark Age with the Hellblasters, and also the Repulsor that transports them, to fry the hell out of everything. The Terminators would set up around this firebase in such a way as to lend fire support while also charging when feasible and otherwise serving as counter-charge units (I know getting the Knights into charge position can be difficult sometimes, in those cases they should at least be able to defend the Hellblasters from charges I guess?). The troops will shore up any gaps that lead to my Hellblasters that the Terminators haven't covered. In the event that I don't have to worry about deep strikers or fliers, the Terminators and troops would just be part of the ball sitting inside of Azrael's aura. I like having the troops for the +3 CP, plus Azrael means I should be able to use Weapons from the Dark Age every turn and can even use some of the other strategems if really needed. I'm hoping that I can position my Terminators in sort of an anchor position and not worry as much about their limited movement...


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/20 00:17:23


Post by: Formosa


So after my game I came to the conclusion that doredo dreads with the dark angels trait are horrific, both were equipped with plasma cannon thingys and ailos launchers, his liby dread and death company dread both died instantly with a combination of hitting on 2+ with re roll, wounds on 3+ with rr 1's and relics of old night causing 4 wounds, that's a potential 20 wounds from 1 doredo, the only limiting factor was the 24" range


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/20 02:40:25


Post by: Red__Thirst


The Death Company Dread dying to that is understandable, any vehicle exposed to that kind of firepower would likely not survive the turn, but how did you manage to target his Librarian Dreadnought?

I mean I assume it might have flown up with Wings of Sanguinius and failed the charge perhaps? It's a character model so unless it managed to get stuck out in the open ahead of all other friendly models, I don't see how you were able to target it, unless the Doredo dreads have some kind of sniper rule I'm not aware of? (Which, if that's the case, then ole!)

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/20 02:54:21


Post by: Formosa


 Red__Thirst wrote:
The Death Company Dread dying to that is understandable, any vehicle exposed to that kind of firepower would likely not survive the turn, but how did you manage to target his Librarian Dreadnought?

I mean I assume it might have flown up with Wings of Sanguinius and failed the charge perhaps? It's a character model so unless it managed to get stuck out in the open ahead of all other friendly models, I don't see how you were able to target it, unless the Doredo dreads have some kind of sniper rule I'm not aware of? (Which, if that's the case, then ole!)

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-


it was his mistake, he charged one of my deathwing squads turn one (some blood angel shinanigans) and wiped it out as i failed all my saves, this meant that his liby dread was the closest target for my Doredo, it was a simple mistake to make, the death company dread had drop podded down (dread pod) and no way was I going to let it get close, I am glad I bubble wrapped my dreads otherwise he would have easily wiped me, he had 2 15 man units of DC and all the power weapons in the world, lemartes, some luitenant, 10 sanguinary guard, 15 scouts, DC dread, liby dread, it was brutal as his entire army was on me turn 1, but thanks to some good TH/SS rolls from my sarges and a lot of 4+ armour saves from my other squad, I was lucky to hold him, counter charged with 5 thundernaters, DW knights and Bob came down on my turn 1, left my chaplain dread in combat with him as it heroic interventioned, killed his liby dread and most of 1 DC unit with the 2 doredo, those Ailos launchers are pretty solid!

my 5 thundernaters and chaplain dread tore his 15 man DC unit to bits, str10 thunder hammers are awesome, bob made his 10" charge so I was RR hits and wounds due to luetenent (cant spell that bloody word) they got creamed.
his turn what was left of his DC stayed in combat, the doredo got charge by his LT and Lemartes, knocked it down to 4 wounds, his sang guard charged my knights, killing 4, then were all wiped out (still within 6" of bob so RR to hit).

Long story short I got some lucky rolls, it kept me in the game, it was fun ish, but not a real fan of this turn 1 alpha strike nonsense, I barely moved all game :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just realised too that the liby dread had the fly keyword for the turn haha, so the doredo could have had +1 to hit it 1+ to hit or 2+ if i move


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/20 03:13:01


Post by: Timur


Rolls of 1 always miss regardless of any modifiers, it not possible to hit on a 1+


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/20 03:13:48


Post by: Red__Thirst


I gotcha!

Tough break on getting stuck in the open there. It happens to the best of us though. That list is similar to how I plan on running my Blood Angels. Less emphasis on alpha strike here, though I do plan on having a strong flank crusher style hammer element in my list eventually.

Appreciate the explanation. Glad you enjoyed the game.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/20 04:15:12


Post by: Timur


 Formosa wrote:
 Red__Thirst wrote:
The Death Company Dread dying to that is understandable, any vehicle exposed to that kind of firepower would likely not survive the turn, but how did you manage to target his Librarian Dreadnought?

I mean I assume it might have flown up with Wings of Sanguinius and failed the charge perhaps? It's a character model so unless it managed to get stuck out in the open ahead of all other friendly models, I don't see how you were able to target it, unless the Doredo dreads have some kind of sniper rule I'm not aware of? (Which, if that's the case, then ole!)

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-


it was his mistake, he charged one of my deathwing squads turn one (some blood angel shinanigans) and wiped it out as i failed all my saves, this meant that his liby dread was the closest target for my Doredo, it was a simple mistake to make, the death company dread had drop podded down (dread pod) and no way was I going to let it get close, I am glad I bubble wrapped my dreads otherwise he would have easily wiped me, he had 2 15 man units of DC and all the power weapons in the world, lemartes, some luitenant, 10 sanguinary guard, 15 scouts, DC dread, liby dread, it was brutal as his entire army was on me turn 1, but thanks to some good TH/SS rolls from my sarges and a lot of 4+ armour saves from my other squad, I was lucky to hold him, counter charged with 5 thundernaters, DW knights and Bob came down on my turn 1, left my chaplain dread in combat with him as it heroic interventioned, killed his liby dread and most of 1 DC unit with the 2 doredo, those Ailos launchers are pretty solid!

my 5 thundernaters and chaplain dread tore his 15 man DC unit to bits, str10 thunder hammers are awesome, bob made his 10" charge so I was RR hits and wounds due to luetenent (cant spell that bloody word) they got creamed.
his turn what was left of his DC stayed in combat, the doredo got charge by his LT and Lemartes, knocked it down to 4 wounds, his sang guard charged my knights, killing 4, then were all wiped out (still within 6" of bob so RR to hit).

Long story short I got some lucky rolls, it kept me in the game, it was fun ish, but not a real fan of this turn 1 alpha strike nonsense, I barely moved all game :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just realised too that the liby dread had the fly keyword for the turn haha, so the doredo could have had +1 to hit it 1+ to hit or 2+ if i move


What are your thoughts about on using a leviathan dread in DA lists?It costs more but has more dakka, fire power and durability


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/20 04:38:49


Post by: Zidon


Hey guys, I was wondering what you think about using a stormraven gunship in the place of a land raider for transporting deathwing knights + asmodai. While less tanky than a crusader, it can hang fairly far back then move up 45" turn 1, making it more flexible. Also, if running a darkshroud it has -2 to being hit.

It's expensive, but seems like a more...intense....way of getting the deathwing knights into the fray.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/20 04:47:12


Post by: anticitizen013


A few posts back I put my list up. I haven't tried it yet but it's in the list, so there's that

I might do some messing around to try to fit a Chaplain Dread in there (since it can also go with the Stormraven), though. I mean who doesn't like 4A attacks at S12 that hit at 2+ with a reroll?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/20 05:43:27


Post by: Zidon


Yeah, seems pretty crazy! Let us know when you give it a shot. I'd like to see if it's as fun in practice as it sounds in theory.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/20 12:19:28


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 Zidon wrote:
Hey guys, I was wondering what you think about using a stormraven gunship in the place of a land raider for transporting deathwing knights + asmodai. While less tanky than a crusader, it can hang fairly far back then move up 45" turn 1, making it more flexible. Also, if running a darkshroud it has -2 to being hit.

It's expensive, but seems like a more...intense....way of getting the deathwing knights into the fray.


I am excited about trying it out! With a Crusader your enemy can pr didn't more easily where you are going, while the Stormraven opens up the table for you, and it's much harder to take down in the first turn.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/20 13:38:47


Post by: MilkmanAl


 anticitizen013 wrote:
A few posts back I put my list up. I haven't tried it yet but it's in the list, so there's that
Your list is fairly similar to mine. I don't use a Stormraven, but I do like that idea a lot. It's nice to get all your clunky, ponderous units into place as quickly as possible. I rely on extra bodies exerting board control to do that rather than a transport, but you may be onto something with the Stormravens. i can even see 2 of them transporting knights and/or characters being a brutal option.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/20 13:49:48


Post by: Formosa


Timur wrote:
Rolls of 1 always miss regardless of any modifiers, it not possible to hit on a 1+


Thank you captain obvious hahah, I know, but 2+ to hit when I move is still good was my point


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Timur wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
 Red__Thirst wrote:
The Death Company Dread dying to that is understandable, any vehicle exposed to that kind of firepower would likely not survive the turn, but how did you manage to target his Librarian Dreadnought?

I mean I assume it might have flown up with Wings of Sanguinius and failed the charge perhaps? It's a character model so unless it managed to get stuck out in the open ahead of all other friendly models, I don't see how you were able to target it, unless the Doredo dreads have some kind of sniper rule I'm not aware of? (Which, if that's the case, then ole!)

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-


it was his mistake, he charged one of my deathwing squads turn one (some blood angel shinanigans) and wiped it out as i failed all my saves, this meant that his liby dread was the closest target for my Doredo, it was a simple mistake to make, the death company dread had drop podded down (dread pod) and no way was I going to let it get close, I am glad I bubble wrapped my dreads otherwise he would have easily wiped me, he had 2 15 man units of DC and all the power weapons in the world, lemartes, some luitenant, 10 sanguinary guard, 15 scouts, DC dread, liby dread, it was brutal as his entire army was on me turn 1, but thanks to some good TH/SS rolls from my sarges and a lot of 4+ armour saves from my other squad, I was lucky to hold him, counter charged with 5 thundernaters, DW knights and Bob came down on my turn 1, left my chaplain dread in combat with him as it heroic interventioned, killed his liby dread and most of 1 DC unit with the 2 doredo, those Ailos launchers are pretty solid!

my 5 thundernaters and chaplain dread tore his 15 man DC unit to bits, str10 thunder hammers are awesome, bob made his 10" charge so I was RR hits and wounds due to luetenent (cant spell that bloody word) they got creamed.
his turn what was left of his DC stayed in combat, the doredo got charge by his LT and Lemartes, knocked it down to 4 wounds, his sang guard charged my knights, killing 4, then were all wiped out (still within 6" of bob so RR to hit).

Long story short I got some lucky rolls, it kept me in the game, it was fun ish, but not a real fan of this turn 1 alpha strike nonsense, I barely moved all game :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just realised too that the liby dread had the fly keyword for the turn haha, so the doredo could have had +1 to hit it 1+ to hit or 2+ if i move


What are your thoughts about on using a leviathan dread in DA lists?It costs more but has more dakka, fire power and durability


I wouldnt use a Lolviathan for the same job personally, as you say it costs more and to me it should be in combat and not shooting, but the Dakka version is very durable and very shooty, so RR1 to hit while stationary is very good for it, I just personally prefer the Doreto dreads for that role, that being said it would team up with the Chaplain dread very well for CC duties, str 18 if i remember correctly (8 normal +1 for being in the same combat as the chapy dread), thas pretty brutal, as even T9 is wounded on 2+


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 anticitizen013 wrote:
A few posts back I put my list up. I haven't tried it yet but it's in the list, so there's that

I might do some messing around to try to fit a Chaplain Dread in there (since it can also go with the Stormraven), though. I mean who doesn't like 4A attacks at S12 that hit at 2+ with a reroll?


Chaplain Dread with 2 CCW has 5 attacks I think, and I think its aura affects itself so that would be str 14 I think, i will have to check, as for the RR i think it only gets that with 2 CCW, but you probably know this already lol, I paid a CP to make it a VENERABLE DEATHWING CHAPLAIN DREADNOUGHT!!!!!!!!!!

but only becuase I was using Bob


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/20 16:14:47


Post by: anticitizen013


 Formosa wrote:
Chaplain Dread with 2 CCW has 5 attacks I think, and I think its aura affects itself so that would be str 14 I think, i will have to check, as for the RR i think it only gets that with 2 CCW, but you probably know this already lol, I paid a CP to make it a VENERABLE DEATHWING CHAPLAIN DREADNOUGHT!!!!!!!!!!

but only becuase I was using Bob

I thought it got a bonus attack too but it seems that it doesn't. The only rule he gets is for rerolling 1s to hit if he is equipped with 2. But that's pretty weaksauce since he will be near Asmodai (in my list anyway) so he can reroll his misses regardless. As for the Icon of Hate, I think you're right that it does affect himself too. I was kind of on the fence about it but it seems that he meets the conditions. Here's the rule:

Icon of Hate: All friendly models with the <CHAPTER> keyword in combat with the same unit as a model with this ability add +1 to their Strength characteristic for the duration of the Fight phase.

As for loadout, it might be good to give him the two fists with 2 Heavy Flamers so A) you don't need to confine yourself to a characters reroll aura, and B) Heavy Flamers are awesome when you are for sure going to be that close due to Stormraven deployment. I would have liked the extra attack though, since hitting on a 2+ with 5 attacks is likely better than 4 attacks hitting on a 2+ with a reroll. Or maybe it's the same, who knows?

Now for my list, I am wondering what I should drop? I need 204 points which pretty much means I need to drop Ezekiel and a unit of Sniper Scouts. The downside is less of a speedbump available and less coverage for preventing deepstrikes. Although in a perfect world I would be able to cover 54" across for 3 units of scouts. Alternatively, I can drop Ezekiel, change all scouts to bolter scouts, and take Storm Bolters on the Chaplain. I'd also have to drop the AC on the Darkshroud for a HB though which is tough because I love AC so much, haha.

I'll do some messing around. I won't be playing with this list for some time, unfortunately, but I'd love to see how certain units perform with some of the combos from it.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/20 16:29:45


Post by: Swillsswil


Darshrouds don't usually merit an assault cannon in my experience. It gets targeted early on to kill its bubble so I almost always advance it for jink.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/20 16:41:33


Post by: anticitizen013


That's a really good point. Especially since they won't be able to target Sammael and/or the Talonmaster, that would be a pretty juicy target. Here is my new revised list:


++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Dark Angels) ++

+ Flyer +

Stormraven Gunship: Twin assault cannon, Twin heavy bolter, Two Hurricane Bolters, Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers

+ HQ +

Asmodai

Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought
. Melee weapon: Dreadnought combat weapon, Heavy flamer
. Melee weapon: Dreadnought combat weapon, Heavy flamer

+ Elites +

Deathwing Knights: Watcher in the Dark
. 4x Deathwing Knight: 4x Storm shield
. Knight Master: Storm shield

+ Troops +

Scout Squad
. Heavy Weapon Scout: Heavy bolter
. 3x Scout (Boltgun)
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

Scout Squad
. Heavy Weapon Scout: Heavy bolter
. 3x Scout (Boltgun)
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

Scout Squad
. Heavy Weapon Scout: Heavy bolter
. 3x Scout (Boltgun)
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Dark Angels) ++

+ HQ +

Ravenwing Talonmaster
. Land Speeder: Twin assault cannon, Twin heavy bolter
. Talonmaster: Heavenfall Blade

Sammael on Corvex

+ Fast Attack +

Ravenwing Bike Squad
. Ravenwing Biker: Chainsword, Plasma gun
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Biker: Chainsword
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Biker: Chainsword, Plasma gun
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Biker: Chainsword
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Sergeant: Chainsword
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun

Ravenwing Black Knights: 4x Ravenwing Black Knight
. Ravenwing Huntmaster: Corvus Hammer
. . Black Knight Bike: Plasma Talon

Ravenwing Darkshroud: Heavy bolter


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/21 12:47:27


Post by: Widied


 ZergSmasher wrote:
MilkmanAl wrote:
Awwwww weaksauce. I didn't know that. Well, that makes the DWK on foot a huge gamble. They'd still be great for area denial, but who knows if they'd actually get to charge anything. Hmmm...

That's why DWK should run in a Land Raider Crusader. They have a better chance of getting into combat that way. And our Land Raiders are less likely to get their shooting shut down thanks to our fall back and shoot stratagem. I'll probably try the DWK+Asmodai+DW Ancient bomb sometime; it could be really good. If your opponent focuses down the Land Raider, he's ignoring your Black Knights, Hellblasters, Plasma Inceptors, or whatever other nasty thing you've got raining hell on his army. Land Raiders themselves are actually very tough vehicles; the toughest in the game short of a superheavy like a Baneblade.


Why are people still talking about Land Raiders when we have Storm Ravens now! Storm Raven seems like the best possible delivery system for DWK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Swillsswil wrote:
Had my first codex game a couple days ago, vs Space Wolves no less! Wanted to try out a lot of new stuff. My list was:
Sammael
Talonmaster
5x bolter scouts
5x bolter scouts
5x sniper scouts w heavy bolter
5x deathwing w cyclone
Ravenwing apothecary
Darkshroud
6x black knights
10x hellblasters
Dark talon
Imperial bastion

I put the hellblasters in the bastion because with grim resolve they can reroll 1s without a master. All 10 hellblasters stayed alive and deleted a unit every turn. MVP of the battle.

Talonmaster was sick and was a major force multiplier for himself, Sammy, and the dark talon.

Deathwing accomplished very little sadly, though they did punch a lasback to death toward the end.

I remain meh on sniper scouts. They accomplished nothing and I'm thinking intercessors with stalkers would accomplish more as home objective holders, despite costing more.

Dark talon was great. Only had to hover near the end to stay in buff bubbles, but by then all anti-flyer threats were neutralized.

The black knights took a rough hit from 10 combiplasma wolf guard and only left with sarge thanks to jink. Amazing durability considering 20 overcharged shots.

Very happy with the codex so far.


I like the list. It's very close to what I was thinking of trying next. Glad to hear the Talonmaster was such a success. To me he is the hidden gem of the codex. Between him and Samael you have a great couple of bullies to throw around the table. Their damage output in combat is nearly demon prince level status (given he has the heavenfall blade) and they have far greater shooting potential. The Talonmaster especially, I'm not sure people appreciate that this guy is floating around untouchably with firepower greater than an assault cannon razorback... one of the most spammed units in the imperial handbook for marines. Their movement and flexibility is so under-estimated. I believe Azrael is a great character to build around but I think we also have a very viable option in Sammy.

The list I want to try out :

Outrider

Librarian on Bike (Force Sword, Plasma Pistol)

Dark Shroud (Heavy Bolter)
Ravenwing Bikes x5 (Sgt. Combimelta, meltagun x2)
Ravenwing Bikes x5 (Sgt. Plasma Pistol, Plasma gun x2)

Battallion -

Samael
Talonmaster (Heavenfall blade)

Scout x 5 (Snipers, Missile Launcher)
Scout x5 (Boltguns, Missile Launcher)
Scout x5 (Boltguns, Heavy Bolter)

Dark Talon

Devestator Squad x5 (Plasma Cannon x4)
Devestator Squad x5 (Plasma Cannon x4)
Devestator Squad x5 (Plasma Cannon x4)

Essentially the plan is to setup a bit of a backfield for objective camping and fire support between the scouts and Devestators. The scouts also working as screen potential. Then have the Ravenwing Portion do work on a flank. I went with dev's over hellblasters just because mainly I can have more of them. Though it will be easy enough if the dev's don't perform to convert two of them to a 10 man block of hellblasters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Zidon wrote:
Hey guys, I was wondering what you think about using a stormraven gunship in the place of a land raider for transporting deathwing knights + asmodai. While less tanky than a crusader, it can hang fairly far back then move up 45" turn 1, making it more flexible. Also, if running a darkshroud it has -2 to being hit.

It's expensive, but seems like a more...intense....way of getting the deathwing knights into the fray.


I think this is the optimal choice. It is also a much more well rounded gunboat then the landraiders.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/21 13:39:55


Post by: Breng77


Breng77 wrote:
 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Just a note on the RWB vs RWK discussion - this unit is illegal in the new book:

Breng77 wrote:

1.) 3 Bikers 2 Plasma Combi- plasma


A RWB Sgt can't take a combi weapon. He only has access to the melee and pistols weapon lists. You can give him a plasma pistol, but you have only one shot with it at 12" and you lose your twin bolter shots from him.


Good to know that hurts especially when space marine biker sarges can get combo weapons.


Looking at this some more the RWB sgt can take a combi-weapon because he could in the index and the designers commentary tells you that you can still use index wargear options with your codex data sheet.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/21 13:40:12


Post by: anticitizen013


The Ravenwing bike Sgt can only take pistols and melee weapons (so no combi weapons). Might as well give him a plasma pistol in that case if you want him to have a bit of extra punch. Downside is you won't be able to fire his bikes weapons too which kind of makes him expensive for just 1 plasma shot...


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/21 13:56:55


Post by: Breng77


 anticitizen013 wrote:
The Ravenwing bike Sgt can only take pistols and melee weapons (so no combi weapons). Might as well give him a plasma pistol in that case if you want him to have a bit of extra punch. Downside is you won't be able to fire his bikes weapons too which kind of makes him expensive for just 1 plasma shot...


Check the index, in the index it gives him the sergeants weapons list. Which allows him to take combi-weapons. The designers commentary allows you to use wargear options from the index with your codex data sheet.

"Are there wargear options for your model that only appear in the index version of its data sheet?"
"yes"
"Use the codex version of your model's data sheet, but you can shoose to use the index version for its wargear options"


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/21 14:09:35


Post by: anticitizen013


Oh yeah I keep forgetting that nonsense. You are correct, carry on :p

Edit: To elaborate a bit, I say nonsense because they really just should have copy pasted the wargear options if they are going to allow it anyway. It just seems sloppy and a weird way to implement a change that isn't actually a change... But this isn't the thread to discuss this and in the end, it's the rules so I shall follow them regardless of how silly I think it is (and for the record I think 8th is amazing).


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/21 14:56:55


Post by: Maelstrom808


Yeah I had forgotten about the index options.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/21 15:04:44


Post by: Breng77


 anticitizen013 wrote:
Oh yeah I keep forgetting that nonsense. You are correct, carry on :p

Edit: To elaborate a bit, I say nonsense because they really just should have copy pasted the wargear options if they are going to allow it anyway. It just seems sloppy and a weird way to implement a change that isn't actually a change... But this isn't the thread to discuss this and in the end, it's the rules so I shall follow them regardless of how silly I think it is (and for the record I think 8th is amazing).


I largely agree, I can understand units being index only, but wargear just makes it confusing, and will still be a problem at some point if they phase out the indices.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/21 16:07:26


Post by: IandI


I had my first game last night with the new Codex, Ascension vs Black Legion.

My list:
Azrael
Librarian
Talonmaster
Company Champion
Black Knights x 5
Hellblasters x 5
Tactical Squads x 3 (2 squads of 5, one squad of 7)
Sniper Scouts x 5
Lascannon Devastator Squad
Missile launcher Devastator Squad
Rhino
Assault Cannon Razorback x 2

Turn one he deepstriked Abbadon, a sorcerer, and 8 terminators with combi melta at me. The Librarian blocked Warptime with a CP reroll, which essentially won the game with my first dice throw. He shot, scored first blood, killed a Razorback and a handful of tactical guys and Devastator.

My turn one everything moves within 6" of Azrael and the Talonmaster except the devs. Everyone except Azrael supercharges plasma. Terminators die, Abaddon dies, Sorcerer has 2 wounds left. The rest of the very short game is a mop up, and by my 4 turn he was tabled.

Takeaways:
Grim Resolve may as well say "Devastator Squad only". Nobody else uses it. Still, they killed a lot of stuff.
Azrael and the Company Champion were monsters in melee, and the Heavenfall Talonmaster is scary good. After Abbadon went down the 3 of them (with a handy screen of tactical guys and a Rhino) mulched his whole army.
Black Knights are too expensive to supercharge. Even with rerolls I lost 3 and 2 Hellblasters to 1's.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/22 00:13:04


Post by: Zustiur


Breng77 wrote:
Check the index, in the index it gives him the sergeants weapons list. Which allows him to take combi-weapons. The designers commentary allows you to use wargear options from the index with your codex data sheet.

"Are there wargear options for your model that only appear in the index version of its data sheet?"
"yes"
"Use the codex version of your model's data sheet, but you can shoose to use the index version for its wargear options"

Thanks for the reminder. I haven't been checking the index for wargear options.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/22 02:13:21


Post by: ZergSmasher


Widied wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
MilkmanAl wrote:
Awwwww weaksauce. I didn't know that. Well, that makes the DWK on foot a huge gamble. They'd still be great for area denial, but who knows if they'd actually get to charge anything. Hmmm...

That's why DWK should run in a Land Raider Crusader. They have a better chance of getting into combat that way. And our Land Raiders are less likely to get their shooting shut down thanks to our fall back and shoot stratagem. I'll probably try the DWK+Asmodai+DW Ancient bomb sometime; it could be really good. If your opponent focuses down the Land Raider, he's ignoring your Black Knights, Hellblasters, Plasma Inceptors, or whatever other nasty thing you've got raining hell on his army. Land Raiders themselves are actually very tough vehicles; the toughest in the game short of a superheavy like a Baneblade.


Why are people still talking about Land Raiders when we have Storm Ravens now! Storm Raven seems like the best possible delivery system for DWK.

Yeah, I keep forgetting we have access to the flying dumpsters now. Silly me! I always tended to think of Stormravens as a gunship rather than a transport, but for Dark Angels they can be both since we have a strong assault unit to run out of one.

I want to get one, but I feel like with the points increase they may not be worth it, especially since the Fire Raptor came down in points. I guess if I was mainly taking it as a transport for DWK it's worth it.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/22 02:18:32


Post by: axisofentropy


Yeah the fire raptor is the new hotness. But by the time you get it painted, they'll raise its points up again. Build what you like and let the meta catch up.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/22 02:21:36


Post by: Zidon


My brother and I decided we're going to call the stormraven DK combo "Dumpster Trouble" lol.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/22 03:09:37


Post by: Formosa


I want to get a stormraven but the model is horrible, I remember seeing a good conversion kit somewhere but can't find it.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/22 23:29:03


Post by: Ronin_eX


 Formosa wrote:
I want to get a stormraven but the model is horrible, I remember seeing a good conversion kit somewhere but can't find it.


Chapterhouse does an extension kit that looks pretty good.

After that, you just need to convert the turret so it isn't that horrible top-mounted bubble affair.

The CH extension kit and the twin-AC from the Dark Angels speeder upgrade sprue for a chin-mount should do the trick (the CH kit comes with a hatch to cover the top turret hole).

Makes the thing actually look good. Now that we can take 'em I'll be grabbing all of that to make a passable looking one for my DA's.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/24 01:14:37


Post by: Zustiur


With the release of this codex, I was determined to look at the army with fresh eyes - examining every little part of it to see potential that I might normally dismiss. With that in mind I turned the exercise into an essay.
I've now finished the first draft, which to my amazement has clocked over 15,000 words. I was originally planning to post it in here as a unit review like you sometimes see in the first post of a tactics thread. With it being this long, I'm not sure that I should post it all at once, as most people will just scroll past and never read it.

How much interest is there in such a thing, and what is your opinion on how it should be presented?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/24 01:40:23


Post by: ZergSmasher


Zustiur wrote:
With the release of this codex, I was determined to look at the army with fresh eyes - examining every little part of it to see potential that I might normally dismiss. With that in mind I turned the exercise into an essay.
I've now finished the first draft, which to my amazement has clocked over 15,000 words. I was originally planning to post it in here as a unit review like you sometimes see in the first post of a tactics thread. With it being this long, I'm not sure that I should post it all at once, as most people will just scroll past and never read it.

How much interest is there in such a thing, and what is your opinion on how it should be presented?

I'm always interested in people's opinions about armies I play. Perhaps there are certain nuances or options that I might overlook that could improve my play. So yes, I'd be interested in seeing it. I might later post my own opinion about each unit, stratagem, warlord trait and relic, as I find it enjoyable to share my opinions on that kind of thing.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/24 01:41:02


Post by: axisofentropy


Poast it and I'll copy the good parts into the OP


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/24 02:22:12


Post by: anticitizen013


I think you should post it, but please for the love of the Lion, format it well! Someone did an AdMech tactics thread that is very well done (especially since it has pictures!) which I will try to find the link for. It's always nice to have a well executed tactics thread.

Edit: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/741040.page


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/25 09:02:19


Post by: Snail22


To break from the optimisation, any word of podding plasma vets with jump lt and jump cap?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/25 17:09:12


Post by: ZergSmasher


 Snail22 wrote:
To break from the optimisation, any word of podding plasma vets with jump lt and jump cap?

I expect it's cheaper and better to just take plasma Inceptors, together with the aforementioned characters.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/25 17:42:00


Post by: MilkmanAl


Regarding the above talk of dropping in Dreadnoughts, what do you guys figure is the best option? I definitely like the dual ccw set-up for maximum flamer use, but there aren't a whole lot of dreads that can have that particular armaments. Specifically, we get chaplains, relic contemptor, and leviathans. For 16 pts over the chaplain, the contemptor gives you an extra strength, chainfists, more movement, and more wounds, so I think that's an obvious choice. Not sure if the Leviathan is worth 100 for s and t 8 plus 2 meltagubs, though.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/25 18:15:55


Post by: Swillsswil


 Snail22 wrote:
To break from the optimisation, any word of podding plasma vets with jump lt and jump cap?


I tried it. It's basically a glass cannon. Sure they will put the hurt on something, but they get all the focus and collapse the next round. Not good for how many points they cost. Not bad for a casual game, but not competitive


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/25 19:40:27


Post by: Breng77


 ZergSmasher wrote:
 Snail22 wrote:
To break from the optimisation, any word of podding plasma vets with jump lt and jump cap?

I expect it's cheaper and better to just take plasma Inceptors, together with the aforementioned characters.


Yup, at best vets put out 10 plasma shots for 145 points then you need to pay 85 to pod then in so 230 points. 3 plasma inceptors is 177 and average 12 plasma shots. You can stick another 5 man squad in the pod, but they cannot use WOTDA, and would still make the unit more than 6 in inceptors. I think if you wanted to use
Said squad a razorback would be a better transport


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/25 20:00:02


Post by: Aaranis


What are you guys thoughts on Ravenwing Land Speeders ? I'm thinking getting 2-3 of them, supported by Sammael, and also why not a Land Speeder Vengeance. Just wondering what gear to give them, full multi-meltas ? Full heavy flamers ? I don't know which duty they'd do best, multi-meltas seems nice as they can be at the other side of the board really quickly, to destroy a backfield artillery or a transport. With a unit of 3, I get 6 multi-melta shots, on a unit with 20", that can advance and shoot with the Speed of the Raven stratagem, while rerolling their 1s and 2s to Hit thanks to Sammael. 372 pts for the unit of 3, plus 183 or 216 for Sammael. Worth it ? How do you guys use Land Speeders ?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/26 06:29:13


Post by: Swillsswil


 Aaranis wrote:
What are you guys thoughts on Ravenwing Land Speeders ? I'm thinking getting 2-3 of them, supported by Sammael, and also why not a Land Speeder Vengeance. Just wondering what gear to give them, full multi-meltas ? Full heavy flamers ? I don't know which duty they'd do best, multi-meltas seems nice as they can be at the other side of the board really quickly, to destroy a backfield artillery or a transport. With a unit of 3, I get 6 multi-melta shots, on a unit with 20", that can advance and shoot with the Speed of the Raven stratagem, while rerolling their 1s and 2s to Hit thanks to Sammael. 372 pts for the unit of 3, plus 183 or 216 for Sammael. Worth it ? How do you guys use Land Speeders ?


First, I'd say get a Talonmaster. They are criminally good.

I personally would not recommend multimeltas. Speeders are going to be on the move constantly, which means a 50/50 single shot weapon every round. I'd rather put those on POTMS vehicles or tarantulas, or even devs before speeders.

Heavy bolters and assault cannons work great, especially next to Sammy and Talonmaster.

If you want antivehicle speeders, I'd say go with typhoons.

I've been thinking of doing heavy flamer speeders, but since I haven't tried them can't say how they'd perform. I want to say that with Talonmaster they might be fun. Don't need Sammy as much either with auto-hits.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/26 07:14:24


Post by: Zustiur


Here's the first draft of my full codex review. Happy reading. I welcome any and all feedback. In fact, the more feedback the better!

p.s. I hate writing in forum code, so apologies for any odd formatting. I'm happy to make the word doc available for anyone interested in reading in a nicer format.
Chapter Traits
Spoiler:

Grim Resolve (requires pure detachment)
On the one hand, the re-rolling 1s part of this means our armies will be even less inclined to move. On the other hand, it actually frees us to move somewhat more frequently. Let me explain; Hitting on a 3+ rerolling 1s is obviously a strong incentive to stay still, but there two reasons this means we can move more often. The first reason is that because we hit slightly more often with our heavy weapons this way, there will be more occasions where we have destroyed all visible targets, and can therefore move. The second reason is that our Company Masters no longer need to remain in our DZ inspiring our fire base. In fact, we now have fewer reasons to take company masters in the first place, which frees up a chunk of points to consider our other HQ options.

A key point to remember with this rule is that committing to using it every turn will hamper you in a lot of ways. Think of this more as a nice bonus for 3 turns of the game. If you have a reason to move, move. Do not throw away objectives or better fields of fire just to retain a reroll. We are not alone in having a chapter wide rule which isn't used 100% of the time, and that's not a bad thing.

Never losing more than one model at a time due to morale may not seem like much, especially when using 5 man units. However, there are occasions when that will be particularly beneficial. Perhaps not every game, but definitely occasions. For example, in my first tournament of 8th edition, I encountered two games against Night Lords. They apply a LD modifier for each of their units near the unit taking a morale check. This cost me a surprising number of models. Models which I would not have lost had this codex been out already.

Additionally, this means we get to get some more use out of And They Shall Know No Fear. No matter what you roll on that second attempt, the result will never be worse. No more rerolling a 5 to a 6 and losing additional models.

Ravenwing
On its own, 4+ jink may not be all that impressive, especially when many Ravenwing weapons cannot fire after advancing. Bikes are primarily shooting units, even the black knights, so advancing isn't a frequent occurrence. This shines however when we look at stratagems later.

Bikes will often want to move, and with this, now they will often want to advance. This means the stationary requirement of Grim Resolve is of limited use. However, it does still exist and perhaps the best way to use Ravenwing now is to alternate between advancing and remaining stationary. Land Speeders, sadly, are likely to want to remain stationary all game.
Remember, whether a unit moves or not doesn't matter, it's the model that matters. You can leave an attack bike stationary, while moving the other bikes around it (daisy chain!) to keep the accuracy on the most important model. The same trick can apply to the special weapons in the unit.

Inner Circle (formerly Deathwing)
Auto-passing morale reduces the value of Grim Resolve for Deathwing. On the other hand, you can look at this as Grim Resolve +1, because now we never lose more than 0 models to morale. Rerolling against Fallen is useless, except when it isn't. I don't know anyone who plays Fallen.

Combat Squads
It’s worth remembering that this rule only applies to a full sized unit. Without taking full sized units, we may as well not have the rule. Take large units, find out what your opponent has, and deploy accordingly. If you obviously aren’t going to finish deploying first, there’s little harm in splitting your units. Just remember to match this to how you intend to use your auras.
 


Units
HQ
Spoiler:

Azrael
Having Azrael as your warlord in a typical army (battalion) effectively gives you 3 extra CPs. 1 immediately and 2 you’ll get from Brilliant Strategist. 3 CPs gives your army a surprising amount of flexibility – more than enough to make up for Azrael’s own lack of mobility.

Azrael's invulnerable save aura has many uses, as does his reroll aura. Given devastators are going to be getting rerolls simply from standing still now, Azrael really wants to be moving. He can't keep up with bikes, but he can happily keep up with regular marines, primaris marines and terminators. That 4++ can be particularly useful near standard or tartaros terminators as you get the benefit of cataphractii without the penalty.

The Sword of Secrets is a good weapon, though in certain situations a power fist or thunder hammer would be preferable. The Lion’s Wrath on the other hand is just a master crafted bolter on a regular combi plasma gun. You do not choose your army based on either of these items, but they are good in their own right.

Azrael always wants to be surrounded by as many units as possible to hand out many re-rolls. Beware of parking-lot syndrome where your warlord spends his whole time surrounded by tanks, not directly contributing anything to the battle.

Belial
The Sword of Secrets makes Belial an excellent choice for your army. He’s a character and monster killer. This is helped by having the Huntsman warlord trait which aids you in getting him into combat with the enemy models which you most need to kill. 2 damage may seem low, but with wounding on 2s and AP -3 few characters will survive more than a few hits. Belial is an assassin and should be used as such. This is compounded by Parrying Blade which helps to preserve your warlord in one-on-one combat with enemy beat-sticks.
His benefits as an aura producer are more questionable. He needs to be surrounded by combat units (assault marines, veterans or deathwing) to clear out the chaff so he can focus on killing his preferred targets. It’s questionable which Deathwing units he benefits most, and this is something which bears further investigation.
One thing is certain, this is not a model for baby-sitting your firebase. Belial always needs to be in the thick of the fighting, probably via deep strike.

Sammael
Correct usage of Sammael is tricky. Taken as an individual, he’s a skirmisher – always wanting to shoot and charge, fall back, shoot, charge. However, virtually nothing else in your army can do the same thing, so you must take care not to get him stranded. Always fall back, always shoot, and charge back into the same combat if you have to.
Jink is irrelevant – he has a 4+ invulnerable anyway. Only advance when capturing objectives. Speaking of which, he’s our best chance at claiming Priority Orders Received.
Choosing units to provide rerolls to is also tricky. Land Speeders never want to be moving due to their heavy weapons, whereas Sammael should always be moving. He cannot keep up with the minimum move of aircraft for more than a turn. That leaves the various bikes. Black Knights are the only ones to truly benefit in both shooting and fight phases, but they’re too expensive to take en masse. Instead, take a healthy mix of regular bikes, black knights and make sure you bring a Ravenwing Ancient for the extra attacks (remember Sammael benefits from that too).
...on Corvex
The strengths of Corvex are the higher strength and AP of its plasma cannon and its price. Otherwise, Sableclaw is better in every way. The plasma cannon is dubious at best, providing too few shots to really compete with the twin assault cannon. Even against its preferred T6 and T7 targets, the greater chance of wounding doesn’t counteract the extra shots.
Corvex should be your choice for small games where points or power is at a premium.
...in Sableclaw
An extra wound, a lot of shots and best of all, no temptation to risk Gets Hot.
Sableclaw has a hidden benefit of being a larger model, thus providing a slightly larger bubble of rerolls.

Asmodai
Compared to an interrogator chaplain, Asmodai’s key benefit is the bonus attacks for infantry and bikes. Sadly, he lacks the mobility to work with bikes and jump units, so he’s limited to drop pod and rhino units- assault marines and veterans.

Ezekiel
Ezekiel is the most resilient Librarian. 2+, 4++, 5W. Like many of our named characters, he wants to be in the middle of combat where his aura takes effect. Otherwise, the best argument in his favour is his ability to deny two powers per turn. For approximately 1.5 librarians, you get the defensive benefit of 2 librarians.

Master
Discussion of the Master really needs to answer the question, ‘why not take Azrael instead?’ Possible answers to this question are: mobility, parking lot, mixed detachments (no Grim Resolve fixed with Courage of the First Legion), combi-melta (see Huntsman) and cost.
Of these, parking lot and cost will often go together. For less than half of Azrael, you can boost your tanks and land speeders without ever ‘wasting’ your combat potential.
...in terminator armour/cataphractii
If you want a storm shield, but still want two weapons, consider cataphractii. Otherwise, the benefit of terminator armour is deep strike, 2+ save, and the overpriced chainfist option. If you’re not planning to deep strike, I’d avoid this as the other benefits are tiny.
...Gravis
The lack of options for this model makes it very unappealing. The gauntlet makes the sword pointless against anything other than T3 characters.
...Primaris (not gravis)
There are a few options here, perhaps the most appealing is the stalker- coupled with Huntsman, you can make your warlord into a sniper. This is likely the most appropriate choice for your parking lot as he can contribute meaningfully to the battle while providing his aura to your tanks. He’s not even that expensive.
Standard Build: Master Crafter Stalker Bolt Rifle + Huntsman trait.

Librarian
See Psychic Powers.
Librarians are not a powerhouse in our codex; take them for power denial first and foremost. Force weapons are essentially master crafted power weapons. Smite is ok, but our other powers don’t warrant the cost a librarian.
...in terminator armour
You pay a lot to keep an unimportant model alive. You’d be better off paying a few more points to take Ezekiel instead and get double the denies.
...on bike/Jump
While it’s true that speed helps us to use our short ranged powers, none of them are worth using to begin with, so why bother? The best this option offers is greater control over who you smite.
...Primaris
Extra attacks is a good thing.

Chaplain
There is little reason to take a standard chaplain on foot. Infantry horde assault army we are not. He also acts as a LD 9 boost for units, but given Grim Resolve and ATSKNF, that’s of limited benefit. It’s worth noting this is more useful if you take Dark Angels as allies in a mixed detachment.
...on bike
Allows you to accompany Ravenwing, where at least the re-rolls to hit can be put to decent use (corvus hammers).
...Jump
Deep strike on the cheap to help out terminators.
...Primaris
Like the plain foot chaplain, there is no point to this in a Dark Angels army.
...Interrogator Chaplain
Again, on foot there’s not much point. No point lowering LD of units out of range.
...Interrogator with jump pack
With a jump pack he can keep up with our assault units and push for that extra model slain thanks to LD reduction.
...Interrogator in terminator armour
Finally an option worth considering. In terminator armour, he’ll be right next to your Deathwing where he’s actually needed to compensate for the -1 to hit on power fists.

Lieutenant
As tempting as it is to arm this guy to the teeth, you’re probably better off leaving him as cheap as possible. In all likelihood, he’ll be standing with your firebase contributing little to the battle directly. A combi weapon is worth considering, but since that replaces the master crafted bolter, it’s less beneficial than normal.
His main benefit is to sit with your heavy weapons where that 1 to wound is most painful. Keep him with your devastators, hellblasters or tanks. Arm him for defence of those units. This means swapping the chainsword for a power sword (or axe).
...Jump
As always, the jump option is a consideration based on where you want the model to be. Only take this to support bikes, jump troops or deep striking units.
...Primaris
For those of us who are purists trying to keep primaris out of the Dark Angels, there are blessedly few reasons to take a Primaris Lieutenant. Mainly, it’s the extra attack and wound. Their weapon options aren’t impressive. The master crafted auto-bolt rifle is the only one really worthy of consideration here, potentially producing 4 damage per turn.
Even our currently unique access to a plasma pistol/power sword combo isn’t that impressive.

Talonmaster
Preventing your RW units' targets from benefiting from cover is particularly useful when you look at the plasma and melta options we have. Use your speed to get in range of your opponent's firebase (which will inevitably be in some cover) and blast away at them with your high AP weapons. Alternately, sit this guy near some Land Speeder Typhoons to bust lighter vehicles (T6&7) from afar.
Rerolling 1s to wound is always useful, no matter what units this guy happens to be near.

Additionally, this model has many of the strengths of Sammael – 18 mid strength AP-1 shots per turn on a platform that cannot be shot easily.

Techmarine
It’s easy to overlook the techmarine for his lack of aura and psychic powers. For just under the price of a basic lieutenant, you can fill an HQ slot with a power axe and optional power fist attack. This model can then keep your predators or other parking lot units alive (and firing at higher brackets) longer than they should. What’s more, he can help to screen them from combat by tying up enemy units that seek to tie up your tanks. He’s an excellent 2nd HQ in any battalion with multiple gun vehicles.
Best to replace his bolt pistol with a bolter or combi weapon so you can make use of the 2+ BS.
...on bike
Putting your techmarine on a bike would be useful in two situations; your vehicles are moving a lot or your vehicles are going to deploy spread out.
 


Troops
Spoiler:

These three units really need to be considered in relation to each other. The advantages listed below are in that context – not measured against other units in the codex.
Defenders of Humanity (Objective Secured)
This is actually a detachment rule, but since it only applies to troops…
There aren’t too many occasions where control of an objective is actually contested, but it’s a nice boost when available. Scouts get the most benefit, as they will both be forward (in the face of the enemy) and often have low numbers (due to easy casualties).
Tactical Squad
Advantages:
* Melta bombs
* Special, Heavy and Combi weapons
* Rhino/Razorback/Drop pod transport
Aside from that, they are the middle option in many ways. Better resilience than scouts, but not as good as intercessors, and so on. Technically scouts can go in transports too, but there’s no obvious reason to do so.
A proper analysis of Tactical Squads comes down to an analysis of their weapons, and combinations thereof. A squad should generally be given a fixed purpose, and armed accordingly. However, their role within the [lore] codex is as the ultimate generalists, and there is some value in arming them accordingly. The become the unit that’s not worth killing, while being able to threaten every possible enemy.

Special/Combi
Flamers are essentially short range, multi shot bolters. 9 points is a lot to pay to have a model standing around with no targets a lot of the time. The combi option is slightly more pleasing as at least he still gets to fire his bolter. D6 hits is equivalent to 3.5 * 6/4 = 5 ¼ bolter shots. So you’re paying 9 points for an increase by 3 ¼ shots at less than normal rapid fire range.
Grav guns and plasma guns fit almost entirely the same role, with grav being the better option against infantry, and plasma the better against vehicles and monsters. The longer range of plasma puts it ahead for defensive squads. Grav is more suited to a unit that will be in a transport to negate its range issues.
Meltaguns are best against opponents who rush you with vehicles (usually flyers) to act as a back-up threat- giving your opponent a reason NOT to get that close to you. When you don’t know your opponent, you’re probably better off looking to heavy weapons for your anti-tank capability, and leaving meltaguns for bikers.

Heavy
Grav cannons, like their smaller brother have issues with range. Put them in a rhino and hunt heavy infantry.
Heavy bolters make a good option for tactical squads in particular due to their low cost. Couple with plasma and combi-plasma for a unit that will sit in your fire-base, on an objective, screening your more vulnerable targets.
Lascannon is strangely one of the best options for tactical squads – especially squads of 5 with no other upgrades.
Missile launchers are just not worth it right now. You’re better off with lascannons against anything other than a true horde.
Multi-meltas should only be considered if you plan to drop pod, or know your opponent will rush you with vehicles/monsters.
Plasma cannons suffer like all former blast weapons from not having enough shots. They’re no good at killing vehicles and they don’t have enough shots to worry infantry. Again you’re better off with the lascannon.

Unit Size
People often bad mouth tactical marines for their lack of resilience for their cost. Yet those same people generally take minimum squads. A squad of 10 takes concerted effort to remove. Yes, taking two squads of 5 gives you more weapon options and a second sergeant, but that’s at increased unit count/kill points/deployment drops, and likely the cost of first turn. If you’re worried about saving points and wanting a small unit, stick with scouts.

So long as your weapon choices are sensible, tactical marines can be cheap, resilient and effective in one bundle. They’ll never be the star of the show in terms of output, but they’re consistent performers and low priority targets. Never underestimate the value of pouring 5 turns of bolt gun fire into your enemy, especially with 6’s always wound as a factor in the game.

Standard Builds:
10 man; grav, combi grav, grav cannon, rhino = 190 & 72 = 262 pts
10 man; plasma, combi plasma, heavy bolter = 168 pts
5 man; lascannon = 90 pts
[Not recommended] Generalist build: 10 man; melta-gun, combi-flamer, missile launcher = 193 pts

Scout Squad
Advantages:
* Cheapest troops unit at 55 points
* Can deploy virtually anywhere, allowing
* * Deployment on objectives
* * Deployment as a forward screen
* * Deployment 9" from a unit you want to assault
* Objective secured AND infiltrate combined to prevent first turn midfield objective grabs
* Small bases, and therefore small footprint allowing deployment into terrain that might be too small for other units
* Option for shotguns
* Option for sniper rifles
* Option for pistol and blade, while being objective secured
I have deliberately excluded camo cloaks from the list of advantages because it's no better than having power armour in cover instead. Additionally, the cost makes them more expensive than having power armour in the first place. You're paying more for scouts to have durability AND the infiltration. However, scouts should never be thought of as a durable unit precisely because of the infiltration. They will be the first to receive the brunt of enemy firepower, and will be much easier to charge than your tactical marines. Camo cloaks are no help in combat.
 
For forward screening, no unit in our codex does it better. For side screening, Company veterans are cheaper.
 
If we rule out camo cloaks, what wargear do we chose? That depends on what role you want to set them, and you MUST select a role.
Are they a screen in front of your army? Keep them cheap.
Are they a screen for your flanks in a castle deployment/aura focussed army? Sniper rifles for the range.
Are they to tie up enemy units in combat? Pistol and blade, or possibly shotgun for S5 goodness.
Are they to sit on mid-field objectives and stay put? Bolters for the range.
Heavy weapons should only be for units which are not screens and are not far forward. Otherwise they'll die too quickly. A heavy bolter may be tempting, but you've just pushed up from 55 to 63 points, entering Tactical Squad territory. Be truthful with yourself about how likely they are to die in the first turn or two.
Heavy weapons in a sniper unit are also very tempting as they'll be near your back line anyway, but you pay a lot for it, and reduce your sniping power in the process. If you bought snipers, don't you want to maximise the potential for those mortal wounds on characters?

Shotguns vs pistol and blade. If you get close enough, such as deploying 9" away then moving, you have the S5 of shotguns to work with. Against T4 and T8, that's an advantage for sure. 10 shots wounding on 3s instead of 4s or 5s instead of 6s. The rest of the time, the pistol and blade gets you a shot, and two close combat attacks instead of 1, with a potential extra shot in later rounds. Also, if you're thinking of going after a T8 unit (say, to lock it in combat) you already have krak grenades.

In addition to the above options for the unit as a whole, the infiltration can be used as a combi-weapon delivery system. The sergeant can take a combi weapon [via the index entry], which means you can get a flamer or melta in close range on turn 1 very easily.
 
A final use for them is as a distraction. Again keep them as cheap as possible, but deploy them behind LOS blocking cover vaguely near the enemy line. Don't worry about moving them to attack (unless he creates a vulnerable opening). Just wait for him to get paranoid and spend time moving to attack them - likely to be with a far more expensive unit- thus wasting his time.
Standard Builds:
5 man; pistol and sword for harassment of the enemy line = 55 pts
5 man; bolters for midfield objective holding = 55 pts
5 man; snipers for backfield/flank screening = 75 pts

Intercessors
 Advantages:
* Bolt rifles/Assault bolters/Stalker bolt rifles
* 2 wounds
* 2 attacks
* Aux. grenade launchers
Repulsor transport
Intercessors want to move a lot to make full use of their resilience and combat ability, so auto bolt rifles are tempting. The fact this gun has a cost is the problem. If they were the same price as regular bolt rifles, I could see uses for both. As it is, auto bolt rifles really only make sense on a unit which you intend to run into your opponent’s zone to capture objectives late game. Three turns of run and shoot gets you into their zone pretty reliably (28.5” average), where you can capitalise on Objective Secured. It likely won’t matter if you’re down to 1 model by turn 5, as many players neglect to leave troops on their home objectives.

However, outside of Maelstrom (where you want a faster unit anyway), there’s not a lot of reason to get across the table in 3 turns, so why not take all 5 turns and use the cheaper, more powerful bolt rifles? In the same 3 turns, you’re getting almost as many hits due to the -1 penalty for running.

Additionally; Reivers are cheaper than Intercessors with auto bolt rifles – yet come with heavy bolt pistols, shock grenades and Terror Troops.

Likewise, stalker bolt rifles suffer from having a cost. Without it they’d be contenders. With it, they’re just a trap option. Only take them when you also plan to ensure there’s an objective close to your own table edge. Sit them on it and rely on their range to remain useful. The -2 is great, but coupled with S4, D1 and crucially, 1 shot, they just aren’t that exciting. In this case, I’d stick with a unit of 5 also.

If standard bolt rifles are the best choice, how many do we want? We’ll rule out 6-9 due to Power and aux grenade launchers. 5 or 10 then? Per my note on combat squads, I recommend units of 10 as a general rule. The only advantage of 5 is having a second sergeant, and therefore potential second power sword. It’s something to consider when: a) you’re trying to maximise detachments for CPs, and; b) have points to spare which may as well go on more power swords.

Aux. grenade launchers get a lot of positive feedback. You’re giving up one or two shots with your main gun to fire at S6, D3. Since it’s only 1 point that’s probably worth it. However, it’s definitely an afterthought for when you have points left after army construction, not something to put on as a default.
Standard Builds:
10 man; bolt rifles = 180 pts
5 man; stalker bolt rifles = 100 pts
 

Elites
Spoiler:

Ancients
With the exception of Deathwing and Ravenwing, Ancients mostly provide the 4+ chance for an extra shot/attack. Note that this is models within 6”, not units and it only applies to infantry. The extra attack in the fight phase is more of a Deathwing thing, yet you’re pretty much prevented from using it that way due to having no mobility.
The leadership benefit is questionable in a Dark Angels army.
Picking where to use the chapter and company ancients is the tricky part. They want to be near a) lots of models, or b) models with very powerful guns. That means heavy concentrations of tactical marines (a rare choice to begin with), hellblasters or devastators. The internet seems to like pairing them with hellblasters, but for the price, you could just take more hellblasters.
...Chapter Ancient
Make that free attack more likely to hit. Same weapon options as Company Ancient.
...Company Ancient
The key advantage of this option is the chance to take combi weapons or melee weapons.
...Primaris Ancient
6 points for a better gun, extra wound and extra attack. Seems good, but it means you can’t take a melee weapon, which you might want.
...Deathwing
Consider this option whenever planning a deep strike assault. Great with any terminators, but especially great with power fists/thunder hammers because it provides the additional attacks they need to overcome their hit penalty.
...Ravenwing
Given the lack of attacks Ravenwing have in general, this guy is almost a must-take. Being able to provide a large bubble of extra attacks is extremely beneficial.

Apothecary
Apothecaries exist to use their narthecium. That means either healing characters or resurrecting models.
Resurrecting models is not guaranteed, and in fact, from an army planning point of view, is only going to succeed twice during the game (5 turns /2, rounding down because of various factors including apothecary death). If you’re really planning to use this, it must be on units with very expensive models. Frankly, that means Deathwing knights or Ravenwing black knights. Nothing else warrants the cost. Even inceptors aren’t going to be worth the cost of an apothecary that can keep up (RW).
The real use is in keeping your characters alive. An apothecary backing up a close combat strike force of beat-sticks is invaluable as you’ll be keeping very expensive models alive, without any need for a 4+ roll to succeed. Put him in the same delivery system as the characters themselves, be that bike, deep strike, land raider or drop pod.
...Primaris
These have the most interesting gun, but that’s really all there is to say. Their statline appears to be missing the extra attack that primaris models normally get.
...Deathwing
The obvious choice to pair with Deathwing Knights, and some characters.
...Ravenwing
The obvious choice to pair with Ravenwing Black Knights or Inceptors. Generally the best choice of the lot due to his ability to keep up with your characters, no matter their method of movement.

Champions
Champions do nothing for the units around them. They are combat characters. Each has essentially the same S7 melee weapon, which is good, but just means wounding on 3s. Oddly enough, they make pretty good vehicle hunters.
...Company Champion
Sadly this guy has the problem of most power armour character. No range coupled with no mobility. He is very cheap though, making for an excellent counter-attack character to help defend your firebase.
...Deathwing Champion
This guy may well be the star of the champions due to his extra weapon rule granting additional attacks. He’s the most versatile because he isn’t wasted in fighting infantry.
The Deathwing champion is also the most capable on his own. He can deep strike into tight corners, hide until the following turn then move out to strike characters, vehicles or even infantry.
...Ravenwing Champion
The advantage of this model is obviously his speed and plasma talons. This is the champion best suited to actual character hunting. He can move into position to get clear shots, turbo-boosting if necessary, taking the S7 plasma shots then charging to finish the job. Many actual assassins would struggle to do the same.

Imperial Space Marine
The disintegration gun is essentially a combi-grav. It just does more damage. He’s a bit like a lieutenant with combi-grav and grav pistol, but he’s traded the reroll to wound for the price of the guns.

Aggressor Squad
If you want lots of S4 AP0 shots, there does not seem to be a better way to get it. These guys put out more than tactical marines, more than intercessors with auto bolt rifles, more than inceptors, more than terminators. They have powerfists just like terminators. In fact, if you don’t need cyclone missile launchers and you aren’t planning to deep strike, these guys are a better choice than terminators.
Thanks to their special rules, these guys will either be standing still or advancing. There is never a reason to move normally. This means you can get them into firing range on turn 1 on a roll of 2+.

Company Veterans
Like most units in the game, you really need to have a purpose in mind when selecting company veterans. It’s very easy to make this into an extraordinarily expensive unit, while remaining no harder to kill than a tactical squad. Their veteran status does nothing to improve their durability. For this reason they are prime candidates for putting in transports.
As the cheapest unit in our codex, a basic unit of two company veterans with bolters can be used to secure a flank in your deployment zone – preventing enemy deep strike due to the 9” rule. This is a great option to consider if you’re planning an army which will castle deploy or which will very quickly move up the battlefield – you can afford to leave them in your deployment zone to prevent your enemy appearing behind your force to divide your attention. Just remember to deploy them out of LOS, or you’ll be handing your opponent First Blood for free.
The option for storm shields appears to be a trap – they’ll die just as fast to regular AP0 weapons as any other marine, so giving them a 3++ is no real defence. Combat shields fair little better, as they pay a lot for being an additional item rather than a replacement.
With universal access to combi-weapons and near universal access to special weapons, they can hold a lot of firepower. From plasma for use with Weapons from the Dark Age, to be used at range, to melta in a rhino to destroy a super heavy, to power weapons and chainswords to massacre infantry, they can be given any role.
On foot, I believe it’s best to keep them cheap – storm bolters and chainswords gives them a great number of attacks, without bumping them up past the cost of intercessors. This is also one of the best loadouts for use as body guards, as you are not going to want to lose an expensive model each time your protected character gets hit.
Against hordes, take combi-flamers and mount up in a razorback with twin heavy flamers.

Standard Builds:
Screen = 2 man; bolters = 32 pts
Horde v1 = 5 man; storm bolters, chainswords = 90 pts
Horde v2 = 5 man; 5 combi flamers, chainswords = 135 pts, in a razorback with twin heavy flamers (104)
Superheavy = 5 man; 4 melta guns, 1 combi melta = 167 pts in a rhino or razorback
General = 5 man; 4 plasma guns, 1 combi plasma, chainswords = 157
Melee = 5 man; 5 power axes, 5 chainswords = 105 pts, probably 2 units, in a land raider, probably with character support (chaplain?).

Deathwing Terminators
With the introduction of aggressors, there is even less reason to deploy terminators normally. You’re paying for the ability to deep strike. Use it, but use it wisely. Teleporting in to a hornets’ nest unsupported is just going to get you killed. Do not rely on charging when you arrive either, not only will you fail even with re-rolls, it won’t save you from many enemies as they can fall back and shoot you with everything else in the army. Drop into cover, give yourself 1+ saves and shoot until someone is foolish enough to come close, or until you can move safely.
Our heavy weapon options aren’t brilliant, but getting 4 shots with a cyclone missile launcher through the Deathwing Assault stratagem isn’t a terrible idea. If you’re really game, take 10 models and get 8 shots this way. That’s enough to put a hole in anything. However, there may be a better candidate for this in Tartaros.
As a general rule, the plasma cannon is a bad idea, the heavy flamer will be out of range all game and the missile launcher is too expensive. Stick with assault cannons and focus on killing infantry.
Thunder hammer/storm shield terminators are outclassed by Deathwing Knights. Lightning claw terminators suffer from the perpetual mobility problem.
...Cataphractii
 Cataphractii are more expensive at first glance. However, they can reduce their price somewhat by swapping power fists for lightning claws. This coupled with the 4++ makes for a tempting ‘deploy’ unit rather than a deep struck one, however, see aggressors. The heavy flamer is never a good choice for cataphractii due to the slower movement.
...Tartaros
Tartaros share lightning claw option discussed above for cataphractii. This actually makes them the cheapest terminator option, until you add in the plasma blaster and heavy weapon.

The reaper autocannon is tricky. On one hand, it's a poor man's assault cannon with only 4 shots. On the other hand it does have S7 which makes it significantly better at hurting medium vehicles (T6, T7). It also has better range, meaning it will be free to target other units more often than the assault cannon.

The sergeant's weapon options provide the other key difference for this unit. Sadly the volkite charger is Heavy on a unit that wants to be moving a lot, therefore the plasma blaster is generally the better choice - it pairs well with the reaper autocannon, being the same strength and therefore often having the same desired targets.

Deathwing Knights
Deathwing Knights are brilliant, but expensive. The flat 3 damage on the maces and the carry-over of wounds from the flail make them good against all manner of units. The price makes you want to have a minimum unit of 5, but the unit can still be focussed down quickly. Adding an extra body or two is a good idea, as is supporting them with a Deathwing Ancient, chaplain or Belial.
As with all terminators, don’t deep strike into a hornets’ nest and don’t rely on a first turn charge.

Reiver Squad
Grav chutes vs grapnel is like deep strike vs outflank (including enemy table edge!), plus the vertical movement ability, which is mini fly. Grapnels win.
In most situations, the bolt carbine (assault bolt rifle!) is going to be better than the heavy bolt pistol because sheer volume of fire outweighs a d6 modifier of 1.
This is a unit with no clear role other than being in the enemy deployment zone. Intercessors do most of the same job for the same price without the deep strike/outflank ability (which costs extra anyway). The funny thing is, Reivers are cheaper than Intercessors with auto bolt rifles – yet come with heavy bolt pistols, shock grenades and Terror Troops.
The other factor is Terror Troops -1 LD, but that is so short ranged as to only be useful in combat. This might make them combo well with a librarian, but it isn’t a compelling reason to take them in the first place.

Servitors
Do not do anything to help tech marines anymore. They’re cheap single attack powerfists, but they’re going to hit on 6s, so never take. The BS 5+ makes the heavy weapons useless too.

Dreadnought
Regular dreadnoughts work well as a defensive unit – helping to keep your predators and devastators safe. For this reason, keeping the power fist is a good idea.
All dreadnoughts benefit from Grim Resolve’s reroll
Standard Builds:
Assault cannon, power fist, storm bolter: 134 pts
Twin lascannon, power fist, storm bolter: 162 pts
...Venerable Dreadnought
20 points more for BS 2+. A good option for heavy weapon dreadnoughts. Unless you’re short on points, this is a straight upgrade and always worth taking.
Cheaper than predators, with a reroll, hitting on 2s, but with a worse second gun (missile launcher). If they could take quad lascannons they’d be the same price, but hitting 35/36 instead of 24/36. No-brainer. To the best of my knowledge, there is no venerable mortis dreadnought.
Standard Builds:
Twin lascannon/missile launcher: 165 pts
Quad autocannon: 156 pts
...Contemptor Dreadnought
For the first 8 wounds, this dread is as good as, or better than the standard dreadnought so don’t be put off by the damage table. What it lacks is weapon options. There aren’t many targets for S7 D1 weapons in this game because there aren’t enough low wound T6 models (like carnifexes and land speeders). That makes the kheres assault cannon look like a regular assault cannon. Yes it can hurt T7 on 4s, but it doesn’t have the damage value or AP to back that up.
The multi melta looks like a better option, because unlike regular dreadnoughts, this one has a bit of extra speed to make use of that weapon. On turn 2 you’ll be in half range.
Standard Build:
Multi melta, fist, storm bolter: 167 points.
...Redemptor Dreadnought
 This unit is just weird, but then so is the repulsor. So many guns, so little coordination between them. Both main weapons are genuinely good, for very different targets. There’s never a reason not to swap the heavy flamer for the onslaught Gatling cannon. Likewise, you should swap the grenade launchers for storm bolters. Both of these changes make the model (slightly) cheaper. Then it’s just the question of plasma vs Gatling.
Unlike a regular plasma weapon, this one has enough shots to matter.
Standard Builds:
Plasma, Gatling, storm bolters, fist: 191 pts
Double Gatling, storm bolters, fist: 196 pts
 


Fast Attack
Spoiler:

Assault Squad
This is the only unit which can match Sammael’s skirmishing tactic of fall-back, shoot and charge again.
Assuming your intent is to get into combat; Jump packs are almost mandatory. If you don’t put them in a drop pod or rhino, you’re going to need the packs to get anywhere.
In the age of primaris, assault marines are as lost as ever. They simply don’t have enough attacks to be a credible threat on their own. This makes them fall by default into a sort of fire support role, where plasma pistols are your best option. Take a small unit, bounce around into cover, then put some plasma into an otherwise protected unit. Consider melta bombs instead of the third pistol (on the sergeant).
Forget eviscerator, a single 4+ to hit is never going to be worth 22 points.
Flamers may be of use, but as always, they are just like bolter hits, so of questionable value compared to just taking more bolters elsewhere.

If you want to use them in their traditional role of jump assault troops, flamers and a power axe or fist should make for a capable unit. Take the fist and add in melta bombs and now you have a sergeant capable of causing up to 12 wounds on a vehicle while his mates clear out the chaff. Also good for surprising an enemy character.

There is an alternate use of assault squads to consider – that of an inverse distraction carnifex. Instead of being an obvious threat, and therefore shot, they are an obvious non-threat, so may go unmolested. Advance them up the board on foot, with no upgrades, until they either get into combat with something, or protect your other units by posing as a distraction.
Standard Build:
5 man, 3 plasma pistols, jump packs: 101 pts
10 man, 2 flamers, power fist, melta bombs: 195

Inceptor Squad
A deep striking unit that doesn’t want to land exactly 9” away. How refreshing. Twin short ranged heavy bolters for a comparable price to two devastators with heavy bolters. High mobility coupled with decent ranged weapons. There’s a lot to like about this unit.
The plasma option is alright, but significantly more expensive. It’s one of highest rate-of-fire sources of plasma in the book. The fact it can get easily to targets which might otherwise be hidden makes it very useful, but I think the bolter option is better most of the time. The plasma option makes them too obvious a target, and will likely get them killed before they cause much damage.
Pick a target, land in cover, shoot a lot, and move to more cover, repeat.
Standard Build:
5 man, assault bolters: 225 pts

Ravenwing Bike Squad
Chainswords vs bolt pistols. Chainswords are better if you're charging as it means more hits before the enemy strikes back. Bolt pistols are equal if you don't initiate the combat - you'll get punches in your opponent's fight phase, and then shoot him in your shooting phase. Chainswords are also better if you plan to fall back. So it's Chainswords 2, bolt pistols 0. Always swap to chainswords.
 
Taking the optional attack bike may seem pointless when you can take one separately. Remember that there’s no limitation to fire at the same target anymore, and being in the same unit reduces your number of kill points and deployment drops.

Special weapons should always be paired. You get plenty of plasma elsewhere, and these are a one of the few units able to make proper use of flamers and meltas. Pick one of those, depending on what you want out of the unit. If you go with melta, consider the attack bike with multi melta, as it can be behind your other models, and still be in melta-half-range, neatly avoiding any issues you might have with tight gaps in terrain.

* An argument has been made that 3 bikes, each with plasma/combi plasma plus their regular bolters is actually more firepower for fewer points than black knights. This is true. You get the same number of plasma shots (within 12”), plus 4 bolter shots per model, which outweighs the potential 2 corvus hammer attacks. And that’s without the regular bikers having to charge (which they can do on top with chainswords...). It’s more powerful and cheaper but cannot be made into a larger squad without losing efficiency. Note that this option comes from the Index, not the codex, but is still valid.

If you’re taking upgrades, look at getting extra models to soak up the initial wounds. 6 models works well for Power as well as points. It has historical value (from the 6th ed codex) where 6 bikes was the max.

If you just want them for the mobility, take a squad of 3 with no upgrades (other than the free chainsword obviously), but consider scout bikers instead. On second thoughts, give the sergeant a melta bomb. It’s still very cheap, but gives them an option to cause some damage if/when the opportunity presents itself. However, don’t let it distract you. This unit’s objective is objectives not fighting.
Standard Builds:
3 man, 3 chainswords, melta bombs = 80 pts
6 man, 5 chainswords, combi melta, 2 melta guns = 203 + optional attack bike with multi-melta 62 = 265
6 man, 5 chainswords, 2 flamers = 168

Ravenwing Attack Bike Squad
Heavy bolters don't typically benefit much from being on a mobile platform because targets for heavy bolters are so plentiful. Multi-meltas do benefit a great deal. Furthermore, in a pure Ravenwing list, your bikes will generally provide your anti-infantry fire power through sheer bolter volume. The weapon choice is easy - Multi melta every time.
The tougher question is when should you take an attack bike squad? The answer appears to be – in Pure Ravenwing lists. If you don’t have lascannons because you’ve eschewed devastators and predators, you’ll need the anti-tank/monster oomph of multi meltas.

Ravenwing Land Speeders
Land speeders cost as much as razorbacks, with far lower stats, similar weapon options and more speed. Land speeders don’t have transport capacity, but people aren’t using razorbacks as transport anyway. Hopefully land speeders will see another points decrease in the future, but until then, their best loadout is dual heavy flamers – advance every turn (jink), ignore the shooting penalty. Put that 16+1d6” to work by making an 8” gun useful. Think of them like flyers- with a minimum move of 17” a turn, don’t expect to stay in one place firing at the same target twice, keep moving.
Taking a unit of 3 or more increases their speed, making the heavy flamers even easier to use. However, 3 of these cost a comparable price to 2 whirlwinds, so choose wisely.

Ravenwing Black Knights
Black knights are a truly powerful unit, but people know this so they will draw a lot of fire. They are no tougher than regular bikes, so keep them protected. Plasma is great against so many targets, and you have adequate combat power to back it up. Keep Sammael and/or an RW ancient and/or a Talonmaster nearby.
Try to only charge units which have been damaged enough that you’ll kill them this turn or in your opponent’s turn. You don’t want to be stuck in combat on your next turn. Additionally, only charge when it’s heavily in your favour. The rest of the time, you want to be kiting around 18” to make the most of getting 2 shots at full range. This obviously depends on your target and what weapons/range they have. Against 24” rapid fire, it is actually quite a powerful trick to minimise return fire.
I don’t see value in the grenade launchers because I don’t see value in trading AP -3 for 1d3 damage. The things you want to do the extra damage to are likely to save.

Ravenwing Darkshroud
This is a sizeable investment, but well worth it in the right situations. If you want to use a darkshroud, ensure you’ve got a cluster of units to benefit from it – whether that is a fire base, cluster of bikes or just a mass of infantry walking up the board.
A dark shroud is not something to be taken as an afterthought; you must incorporate it into your plan.
As for the weapon, take it matched on what you’re trying to protect. If it’s your firebase, you need the range of the heavy bolter.

Ravenwing Land Speeder Vengeance
The vengeance has a damage value of 2, making it one of the few plasma weapons to be specialised at killing multi-wound, multi-model units. On the other hand, for the same price you could have 3 more black knights – putting out a more reliable number of shots.
With two heavy weapons, this isn’t going to want to move, so the assault cannon is likely a poor choice. You need the range of the heavy bolter to ensure you can shoot all the time. It’s cheaper too.

Scout Bike Squad
It’s weird that these guys have more weapons than their fully trained counterparts.
Stick with the bolters unless you’re hunting vehicles… and if you’re hunting vehicles, there are better ways to spend your points.
They are faster than regular bikes but have less armour. Good for quick objective grabs, but you better keep them out of sight when they’re not needed.
Standard Build:
No upgrades. 3 models, used for capturing objectives only.
 

Heavy Support
Spoiler:

Tanks do not get Grim Resolve. Infantry, bikes and dreadnoughts do. For Dark Angels, that means a reduced reason to take them. Bear this in mind for the rest of this section.
Devastator Squad
I think there are only two sensible options for devastators at the moment. Lascannons and heavy bolters. This unit always wants to sit still, so grav and multi-melta are both out. Plasma and missiles both suffer from not enough shots against infantry and not enough punch against vehicles.
Taking 4 weapons in a minimum squad just makes the unit too much of a target. Always include enough extra bodies to keep your heavy weapons alive when the unit gets shot in the first turn. This can be by not taking 4 weapons, or by purchasing the extra models.
If you’re taking single shot weapons, the armorium cherub is like having a hunter killer missile, for one point less. If you have lascannons, it better and cheaper.
Standard Builds:
10 man; 4 lascannons, cherub = 235 pts
10 man; 4 heavy bolters = 170 pts

Hellblasters
Like Intercessors, this is really an analysis of guns.
Unlike Intercessors, the assault version actually has merit – it has the same AP and will wound infantry just as often. That means the extra shot from 15-24” is actually an improvement in firepower. They make an absolute mockery of regular marines and other MEQ. Terminators, as always will fall back on their invulnerable saves, so the -4 AP is wasted against the more elite targets.
For Dark Angels specifically, the standard version has more benefit – rerolling 1s makes overcharging a safer bet without the need for babysitting.
The heavy version looks like an anti-vehicle weapon, but isn’t. It doesn’t do enough wounds, even with overcharging and stratagems. This is because you’re not getting enough shots to capitalise on the increased damage.
Plasma pistol; if you’re hellblaster squad is in combat long enough to benefit from this; something has gone wrong because you’ve already lost an entire round of shooting. A single plasma pistol shot is not going to get you out of combat any faster. Run away instead. Let someone else shoot.
More than most units in our army, hellblasters really need support from other units- either as a screen or as combat characters to rescue them. The unit is just too tempting to shut down by engaging them in combat.
Standard Builds:
5/10 man; Plasma Incinerators = 165/330 points
5/10 man; Assault Plasma Incinerators = 175/350 points

Predator
Predators must be compared with devastator squads since they’re typically using the same weapons. The predator is cheaper, harder to hurt, can suffer the same number of wounds before losing efficiency. It can move much faster for those times when you have no targets. What it lacks is the signum benefit,
Standard Builds:
Autocannon/heavy bolters = 150
Quad-las cannon = 190

Vindicator
At first glance, the vindicator doesn’t get enough shots (D3), but a lot of the time, you’ll be aiming at units of 5 or more, so it’s actually a more respectable D6. It wounds the vast majority of infantry and bikes on 2s. Nevertheless it’s an odd unit, best aimed at multi-wound squads like terminators – units which are fairly rare to begin with.
Perhaps another way to think of it is as a razorback with twin (1d3 = 2 avg) lascannon. The demolisher is very similar to a lascannon vs vehicles. Considered like this, you’re paying 55 points for something which is roughly equivalent to a 50 point weapon. Not terrible. It’s a 5 point difference, with more versatility. The vindicator is tougher than the predator and rhino/razorback too.
In direct comparison with the predator then, the let-down is the lack of sponson weapons.

Whirlwind
Like the Vindicator above, it’s best to compare the whirlwind launcher with similar weapons. You have an option between twin auto-cannon (vengeance) and assault-cannon with 0 AP (castellan). Both cases have longer range and the ability to shoot hidden targets. The former seems like the better choice (which makes sense considering it’s the more expensive option).
Sadly S7 AP-1 isn’t that impressive in general as the majority of vehicles have Sv 3+. Averages: 4 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.5 failed saves.

Stalker
Very much like the whirlwind with vengeance launcher, but specialised at targeting flyers. The stalker gets more shots compared to the average whirlwind. It’s a 6 shot auto-cannon on T8 tracks.

Hunter
This is essentially a razorback with single lascannon specialised at targeting flyers. A pair of lascannons anywhere else in your army is going to do a better job; even with the -1 to hit they’ll suffer. Point for point, a quad-las predator is more efficient at destroying flyers.

Land Raider
It’s natural to think of terminators when we think of land raiders, but transporting terminators may not be the best use of their transport capacity. Terminators can teleport. Other units cannot. On the other hand, you can disembark, move and charge in a single turn, thus getting around the 9” charge issue associated with deep strike.
It’s easy to spot the weaknesses of a land raider: one is just under the price of two quad-lascannon predators, for example. Its strengths are in the 2+ save and the Power of the Machine Spirit.

The base version makes the best use of PotMS- as it’s the one with the most heavy weapons (not counting flame storm since they auto-hit anyway). Add a multi-melta on top and you have a vehicle which is particularly good at hunting other vehicles/monsters. So what should be inside it?

The answer to my mind is that you need an anti-infantry unit inside to balance it out. Veterans with one or more support characters for example. You could have veterans all armed with combi-flamers pop out in short range and absolutely roast an infantry screen, allowing the tank to focus on bigger game. The other answer is to fill it up with characters that have no transport options – the named characters.
...Crusader
The crusader has the most seats and is therefore the best option if you want to transport terminators – you can have a full squad and multiple support characters. As the tank is very much an anti-infantry vehicle, the unit inside needs to have an answer to vehicles and monsters. Whether this is in the form of melta guns or melee weapons is up to you. However, you really want to be charging to make use of the frag assault launchers’ mortal wounds.
...Redeemer
Much like the crusader, the redeemer is an anti-infantry vehicle. However, this one is more suited to hunting elite infantry with multiple wounds thanks to the 2 damage of the flamestorm cannons.
...Excelsior
 Acts as a master for rerolls of 1. Nice, but doesn’t really go in hand with Power of the Machine Spirit which makes you want to move away from your parking lot – which by nature will not want to move.
 


Dedicated Transport
Spoiler:

Rhino
Rhinos serve several purposes, not all of them are obvious: transport for tactical/assault/devastators squads, prevention of overwatch on your more fragile assault troops by charging first, line of sight blocking and objective capturing with a model that takes effort to kill.
When transporting units, pick the ones which have short range issues, advance turn 1, deploy, move shoot/charge. Often that means grav or melta for tactical and devastators. For assault marines, it’s like paying over double for jump packs, admitting you’ll only use them once, then having the tank itself take the overwatch and/or continue on its own separate mission.
...Rhino Primaris
This is a very expensive option with a nasty one-shot weapon. You only want it for its ability to add 1 to the BS of a nearby unit. That’s very handy, but for the price, you can probably take another of the same unit (or 50% thereof). For example, a predator with twin las and heavy bolters is only 10 points more, so why increase the BS of a predator? For 15 points more, you can have 5 more hellblasters.
It’s cool, but not something you need to remember as an option for your army.
Razorback
The razorback sits in an odd place – its heavy weapons make it want to sit still, which goes against its role as a transport. If you do want to use it as a transport, consider the twin heavy flamer [index] option. This weapon suffers no penalty for moving and in fact will encourage you to move in order to get in range.
Otherwise, this is a fairly points-efficient way of getting heavy weapons on the board while ensuring they have enough ablative wounds to survive (7 pts /wound). Predators for comparison pay 8 pts/wound.

Primaris Repulsor
This should really be thought of as a land raider variant. It’s in the same price range, with similar weapon options. The key advantage is that it has fly, so can escape from combat and keep shooting. There are essentially two ways to build it – lots of shots vs lascannons.
If you’re playing primaris marines, this is their only transport, and you’re probably lacking long ranged anti-tank.
Standard Builds:
Dakka: Heavy onslaught, onslaught, twin heavy bolter, storm bolters, Icarus ironstorm, two fragstorm, additional heavy stubber. 295 pts
Las: Twin las, las talon, ironhail stubber, 2 storm bolters, Icarus rocket pod, auto launchers = 316 pts

Drop Pod
I’m utterly convinced that the price of drop pods is so high because of their footprint. You can use them (Rules as Written…) to block off large sections of the table. On the other hand, this also makes them very hard to use, especially if you want more than one.
There is no reason to take the deathwind launcher at this stage. 1d6 S5 shots does not beat 4 S4 shots at the same range + 2 at twice the range. Given the 9” margin for deep strike, the deathwind is almost impossible to use more than once.

Land Speeder Storm
Costs the same as a rhino or razorback while having much lower toughness and wounds. It makes up for this with speed and the ability for the scouts inside to fire while embarked. The Cerberus launcher is essentially just an expensive storm bolter as it will be getting a similar number of shots at a similar range.
As scouts can infiltrate to most of the board anyway, the value of the land speeder storm is questionable. Perhaps its best use is as a chariot for a scout sergeant with combi-melta. Allowing him to have a movement of 18” – very useful for getting into melta range.
 

Flyers
 
Spoiler:

Disclaimer, I've never used flyers. I don't think they belong in 40k at all.
For the Dark Talon and Nephilim, it is important to remember that Strafing Run only cancels out the penalty for moving.
Dark Talon
The rift cannon is pretty comparable to the twin lascannon of the Nephilim. The Dark Talon is significantly cheaper however. For vehicle/monster hunting, I believe this is the better jet.

Nephilim Jetfighter
The twin lascannon appears to be something of a trap option considering the comparable price of a predator with 4 lascannons. This is more of an anti-infantry vehicle in my opinion, so stick with the avenger mega bolter for a total of 16 ap-1 shots. The blackswords are more likely to be fired at mid-toughness targets like bikes and skimmers.

Stormraven Gunship
As the ‘flying land raider’ the obvious choice with the Stormraven is to fill it with terminators, race to the enemy DZ and make a turn 2 charge. But the terminators are capable of doing that without paying for a ~300 point transport. Yes, it adds durability to the unit, but so does spending those same 300 points on 6-7 more terminators. No, it has other better uses.

It can be armed to the teeth with 8 guns, many of which can be anti-infantry or swapped for anti-tank. It’s also quite durable due to supersonic, W14 and T7. It seems to be best used either as a pure gunship or as a transport for those units which cannot get to the other end of the board via inherent deep-strike. Examples being tactical squads, assault squads (without jump packs) and company veterans. The fact you can put a full squad and two characters inside it immediately shows a benefit in comparison to the humble drop pod.

It can have a dreadnought strapped to the back. Any type of dreadnought. Suddenly the shorter ranged default weapons on the Redemptor don’t seem so out of place. Give the Stormraven anti-infantry weapons, put a dreadnought on the back, and let the dreadnought deal with vehicles while the Stormraven clears the chaff.
 

Stratagems
Spoiler:

Relics of the Rock
2nd or 3rd relic. Can't decide between the Mace of Redemption and the Heavenfall blade? Take both! This can add some much needed hitting power to lieutenants.

Linebreaker Bombardment
You really have to be planning to use this when you build your army, which makes it obvious to your opponent, and very easy for them to shut down. If you really want to use it, start with 4 vindicators, not just the requisite 3. That way, you stand a good chance of being able to use it not just once, but twice in consecutive turns. Much like orbital bombardment, this is a great one for armies that also include snipers to finish off any characters you manage to inflict mortal wounds on. If your opponent has clustered tightly enough to make this really work, why not hit them with the orbital bombardment as well? Really punish your opponent for trying to make hyper-use of those auras.

Deathwing Assault
Situational use of this is good. But the cost is too high considering the armament of a regular 5 man Deathwing squad. Better used when you have 10 models in the squad. Ideal targets are going to be those more than 12" from where you dropped in, as you will not be wanting to blow your chance of charging after deep strike.

Stasis Shells
Only against characters? Assault weapon though? So can advance to do it.

Hellfire Shells
Sometimes you wish your heavy bolter was something that had more punch. This gives you that option. Cannot be used on land speeders.

Orbital Bombardment
This one is so expensive, that you have to really have a good reason to use it. Keep an eye on your opponent's units, especially in the first turn. If you see a tight cluster of many units (including characters), then it may be worth using as the 50% chance to deal mortal wounds to units is much better when you have the greatest number of rolls at that 4+. The radius is variable, so imagine what you can fit under a large blast template. If you can get 4 or more units under that template it's worth considering. Never rely on rolling a 6" for the radius.
 
This stratagem gains additional value if you have snipers to capitalise on any mortal wounds you dealt to characters. Pair it with sniper scouts or a vindicare in an imperial soup list.

Wisdom of the Ancients
This grants re-rolls of 1, which we will already have most of the time. May be useful as a backup plan however for those occasions when you really need to move your firebase to get better LOS for future turns.

Tactical Flexibility
This one is all about grabbing multiple objectives at the last minute. Do not use any other time.
Ok, that was harsh. Maybe use this first turn after dropping in 10 terminators and using Deathwing Assault. Now you’ve payed 4 CP total to have an extra turn of shooting with 2 terminator units. Do you feel good?
This stratagem has more use in other armies where morale of large units is an issue. With Grim Resolve, we don’t need to split into MSU to counter the effects of morale, so deploying large squads then splitting achieves nothing if you’re not doing it to grab two objectives instead of one.

Armour of Contempt
Given this is a 5+, you really only want to use it when your vehicle has been, or is going to be hit by more than 2 mortal wounds. It's a good countermeasure against the likes of Eldar Hemlocks or incoming Smite spam. Especially true of the latter as by this point you can already tell which is the closest unit to those psykers.

Only in Death does Duty End
Given characters are generally armed for combat rather than shooting, you'll be looking to use this when your character is unceremoniously taken down by the enemy beat-stick. Hit him back. He deserves it.
On the other hand, if you have a combi melta on your Huntsman warlord as detailed below… that's another good time to consider this stratagem.

Cluster Mines
… scout bikers… yeah. I suppose this is handy if you use them, but I don’t see myself buying the models.

Flakk Missiles
Best used when your target is 1 or 2 wounds away from being destroyed, but also useful when they're close to dropping a bracket on the damage table.

Auspex Scan
Another one of those rules which really only matters on large units with many shots, or units with very strong weapons. For us that means 10 man units of Deathwing, or any all-plasma unit, or devastators.

Never Forget, Never Forgive
Only useful against chaos marines.

The Lion and the Wolf
I believe this belongs in narrative play only. It’s too risky to use any other time. However, if you really wanted to, a (company/RW/DW) champion would be a great model to use this on, resulting in S8 thus wounding on 2s vs most characters.

Hunt the Fallen
It's easy to dismiss this as a Narrative based stratagem, but it does have tactical uses. If, after seeing your opponent's army list, you feel there is one particularly nasty character that you want to send all of your assault elements against, you can use this. It's a double edged sword because you're making that character even better. However, this may be particularly useful against non-combat armies like Tau.
Datalink Telemetry
This helps to make whirlwinds a tiny bit better, but is a gamble. You have to use it before determining how many shots you’re going to get, so it’s not really that much different to a reroll of the number of shots or a reroll to hit.

Weapons from the Dark Age [of Technology]
This is obviously going to be most useful on units that have the most plasma. Namely;
Black Knights- up to 10 models/20 shots
Hellblasters- up to 10 models/10 or 20 shots
Company Veterans with combi plasma- up to 5 models/5 or 10 shots
Devastators with plasma cannons- 4d3 (8) shots- at long range while standing still...
Ravenwing bikes with 2 plasma guns and a combi plasma/3 or 6 shots
Inceptors with plasma exterminators- up to 6 models/6d3 (12) shots
 
After the 20 shots provided by black knights and hellblasters, the others look a bit lackluster, but take heart. 20 shots is the potential for 60 damage, and short of titans, I'm not aware of anything with that many wounds. The potential 18 damage thrown out by a minimum black knight unit, or a unit of RW bikers is still sufficiently scary.
 
Sometimes it will be better to employ this stratagem instead of super charging. For example; when you have a -1 to hit
Sometimes it will be better to super charge. When you have rerolls and/or are low on CPs
Sometimes it will be better to use both together. When you really have to kill a T4, T7 or T8 unit. Emphasis on T7 and T8, because those are typically the only models with enough wounds to warrant dealing 3 damage per failed save.

Intractable
Useful on many occasions, and particularly useful for black knights. Expensive though, so not something you’ll plan to use. Like Counter-Offensive, this is a stratagem to remember about and use when your opponent locks you up against your will.

Empyric Channelling
We honestly don't have enough good psychic powers to warrant having 3 librarians in the first place, but at least with this you'd have a better chance of actually casting one of our powers.

Speed of the Raven
Highly useful for any Ravenwing, including land speeders. Yet to be determined if this counts as not having moved for assault/heavy. FAQ pending. ####

Secret Agenda
Must use whenever playing the Spoils of War mission. Less useful in other Maelstrom missions. I find if I don’t have the cards face up, I forget what my objectives are anyway, so this is dangerous to use.

Honour the Chapter
If this weren’t so expensive to use, it would be a very nice stratagem to pop on a regular basis, but at 3CP, it’s virtually consigned to the ‘never use’ bucket. It can only be used at the end of the fight phase, so you must first assess if you have enough models left in the unit to be worth using. Then you must assess if hitting again is going to achieve anything. Then you must also assess if wiping out the enemy unit is going to be of benefit or hindrance, which basically comes down to, ‘who goes next?’

Fortress of Shields
Useful for Deathwing Knights (or TH/SS) any time they’re in combat, but of most use when facing large numbers or high quality weapons.

Kill Shot
Considering this stratagem affects all three predators, it’s amazing that it’s so cheap. It effectively hands you alpha-strike on a plate, and first blood if you have first turn. It doesn’t even matter too much what weapons the predators have – even heavy bolters are scary when they have +1 to wound. Vs T7, that effectively bumps them up from S5 to S7.
The real cost is in having to have 3 fairly expensive units, none of which benefit from Grim Resolve.

Inner Circle
Let’s be honest here. This stratagem only applies to units which do not benefit from Inner Circle, so that part is irrelevant (unless fighting fallen becomes a thing). Gaining the Deathwing keyword is only relevant if you have Belial or a Deathwing Ancient in your army. The chance of either of these characters being near dreadnoughts or land raiders is laughable.
 

Warlord Traits
Spoiler:

Fury of the Lion
+1 Strength on the first round of combat. It's useful when it alters what you need to roll, so this is one where you need to think about what weapons you have and who you'll be fighting. Obviously, this is not a trait to use with shooty warlords.
S4 weapons vs T4: chainsword, power sword, lightning claw, force sword
S5 weapons vs T3, 5 or 6: power axe, force axe
S6 weapons vs T6 or 7: power maul, power lance, relic blade, Heavenfall Blade, force stave
S7 weapons vs T4, 7 or 8: Mace of Redemption.
Sx2 weapons vs T5, 8 or 9: power fist, thunder hammer
 
Note the freaky way stats are calculated in 8th ed means you modify your base strength first, then apply the weapon modifier. Thus S4 +1 with power fist or thunder hammer becomes S10.

Secondly and more importantly, this bonus applies to units within 6” as long as the warlord charged/whatever. Therefore, in addition to the above, Maces of Absolution become S10, thus better against T5, 8 and 9, just like thunder hammers/power fists. Brilliant vs bike heavy armies (white scars?), and vehicle heavy armies (Imperial Guard russes).

Best used in combo with:
Assault marines
Intercessors, Reivers
Ravenwing Bikes (not black knights who don’t really benefit much)
Deathwing (any flavour)

Courage of the First Legion
The 12" range of this aura is it's only saving grace. Only take it against armies that can utilise a lot of LD penalty effects such as Night Lords. Even then, it's best used in an army that has a lot of full sized units.

 Huntsman
This is a clever little option which may quickly become my favourite. At least, when using Company Masters and their 2+ BS.
Pistols, assault, rapid fire, grenades. Of these categories, there are obviously better and worse weapons to pick for utilising the sniper part of the rule. Specifically;
Pistols: Plasma and grav are the obvious choices. Neither is really 'good' for this trait however. Grav would be my choice, but then you're only doing 1 damage. I feel overcharging plasma is just too risky on my warlord. Yes, it's generally going to be a 1 in 36 chance of failing, but SLAIN is too much to risk unless you're on your last wound anyway or are otherwise doomed in your opponent's next turn.
Assault: Sniping with a combi flamer might make for a good laugh, and may have the added bonus of making your opponent's brain implode as they imagine how that even works. Combi-Melta on the other hand is WHERE IT'S AT. Sniping with a meltagun folks. Just think about that for a moment. Wounding most characters on 2s. AP-4.
Rapid Fire: Storm bolters aren't a terrible choice for this, but aren't all that exciting either. Combi grav makes for the best option if you want to fire the bolter component as well. Combi plasma will again tempt you to risk SLAIN on your Warlord and give your opponent a free VP, all while doing the same average damage as the combi-grav. Bolters by themselves aren't impressive here, even when they are master crafted or are bolt rifles. The winner in this category has to be Foe Smiter. Honorary mention goes to the Combi-Disintegrator on the Imperial Space Marine. An unlikely warlord, but tempting with this trait.
Grenades: If only we could have melta bombs on HQ these days. But then, if you're within 4", or even 6", you're probably able to target the character anyway.
 
The assault component is also interesting, and it really shines for Belial with his blade, Silence. I've yet to see how often piling in and consolidating towards a character will be useful, but it definitely has potential.
 
To take full advantage of this, I strongly suggest a dedicated Character killing HQ. Jump Pack or Terminator Armour (as you see fit) to get the Deep Strike. I prefer the jump pack, as you can drop behind LOS blocking cover and charge the following turn for a guaranteed charge after moving 12" and ignoring terrain. Protecting your warlord is important. Leaving him stranded after a failed 9 or more inch charge is on my 'never do' list. Take a Combi-melta, for that 35/36 * 5/6 * chance of failing invulnerable save. Against characters with no 2+ armour and no invulnerable, you've got an 81% chance of dealing D6 wounds. Throw in a relic blade or Relic such as the Heavenfall blade. If you don't kill them with the gun, jump over their screen on the charge and cut them down. Force weapons may not be a bad option here too.

Brilliant Strategist
If you have 6 CPs, and spend them one at a time, you expect to have 8 CPs to use during the game. 9 if you count the free reroll it provides. The key thing to remember with this trait is that it works best when you avoid those 2CP and 3CP stratagems. That means you should avoid this if you’re building a list around Deathwing Assault.

 Master of Manoeuvre
The advancing portion of this is only really useful for desperate objective grabs. The charging part is more important.
A deep striking character (jump pack or terminator) supporting multiple deep striking assault units has particular promise as it's similar to having free CPs to reroll your charges (although you have to reroll both dice in this case). If you see a 6 on one of the dice, go with spending a CP instead. However, even with this reroll of both dice, assault from deep strike is not something we should rely on too heavily. The chance of succeeding a 9" charge is 28%. The chance of succeeding a 9" charge with a reroll of both dice is 48%. That's still going to fail more often than it succeeds.
CHECK THE Probability on that statement
 
Also very useful for Ravenwing in general. Sammael or any other bike character (or even a Talonmaster) supporting black knights again allows for a much more reliable close combat force. Especially when combined with the other boosts Ravenwing can get from RW ancients etc. A key thing to note about this trait is that it affects the warlord himself, so don't forget to reroll his own charge distance.
 
Honourable mention must go to assault squads and company veterans here. They may not be Deathwing knights, but company veterans armed to the teeth do NOT want to fail a charge.

Stubborn Tenacity
If you don't want Huntsman or Master of Manoeuvre, consider this. It's not amazing, but it might save you a VP in a tight spot. It works best on a character who isn't going to want to move in the first place. The only candidate I can think of there is the Talon Master with his heavy weapons.
 

Relics
Spoiler:

Lion's Roar
I want to like this because it has been with us for three codices but I honestly think the regular combi-plasma is a better gun. How often are you going to be 12.1-18" away from your targets really? We have so many nice relics to choose from that this one holds little value.

 Shroud of Heroes
Does your opponent field a lot of snipers? No? Mine doesn't either. In shooting this is of very limited value because of the Character rule. It may be better on those weaker characters that are more likely to be targeted by snipers, such as ancients and apothecaries.
In close combat, it can be a real winner. Great choice for combat oriented characters like interrogator chaplains.

 Foe-Smiter
This one actually has a lot of uses. Good with Huntsman, and on characters who come with storm bolters as standard. 4 shots at AP-1 is a great start as many targets for Huntsman have invulnerable saves that reduce the value of higher AP anyway. More importantly, 4 shots at damage 2 can put a world of hurt on certain enemy units.

Mace of Redemption
This was my favourite in 7th ed, and it's still a great option. Combined with Fury of the Lion on your warlord, you can make your warlord into a serious anti-vehicle/monster character.

The Heavenfall Blade
Why pay for a relic blade when you can upgrade a power sword to the equivalent of a relic blade with an extra attack? You're saving points and gaining an attack. Win-win.
The choice between this and the Mace of Redemption is tricky. You need to weigh up an extra attack vs S7. If you're hunting infantry, the Blade is probably the better option.
Mathhammer required

Eye of the Unseen
The -1 LD is basically only going to be useful in combat. Add it to an Interrogator to become -2. On all other characters, I consider the leadership penalty to be largely irrelevant. Against hordes, 1 extra morale loss isn't that exciting. It may be of more value against elite multi-wound enemies however.
 
Forcing enemy characters to fight last is brilliant. Have Autarchs and Slaanesh Daemons got you down? Not anymore! Sick of your opponent's beat-stick character destroying you on the charge? Heroic Intervention yourself over there and laugh in his face. Best if paired with Huntsman to ensure you're near enemy characters as frequently as possible.
 

Psychic Powers
Spoiler:

There's a reason why I stopped using librarians after my first couple of test games with the index. Smite was the only good thing they had, which left me with a second power to cast each turn which was lackluster at best, or just plain out of range.
 
Remember folks; Warp Charge values convert directly into percentages as there are so few modifiers to look for.
And always, that 6% chance of Perils.
Smite
83% chance of casting. 8% of which is supercharged to D6 mortal wounds.
Mind Worm
72% chance of casting.
Shorter ranged targetable Smite that always rolls a 1 on D3. Not great so far. Selecting your target is good, but at 12", that target if often going to be the closest enemy anyway.
The more important part of this power is forcing an enemy unit to fight last. Even if they have charged, which they can't have done because it doesn't last into their turn. Errata please! So that irritating point aside what is this good for? Are you planning to launch a lot of charges? Do you already have a lot of units in ongoing combats? If so, then this might be useful. Maybe.
 
I really don't like this one. Best thought of as a secondary smite.

Aversion
72% chance of casting.
This power is actually useful. Reducing the enemy's firepower or melee hitting power is always beneficial. The downside is that even with 24" range, you need to be deep striking, on a bike or using a jump pack to cast this on the most pertinent targets as they'll be sitting in your enemy's parking lot most of the time.
 
Righteous Repugnance
58% chance of casting.
Key targets for this power will be your assault focused units. Which, frankly means Deathwing knights. It's obviously useful any time you have a unit stuck in combat, but at 58% chance of success, you really want to ensure you have assault elements in your army before picking this power.
 
Trephination
58% chance of casting. 8% chance of adding 2 to the next roll:
Roll 2d6 again… When most of the units in the game either have, or have access to LD 8, you're effectively at looking at a 41% chance of dealing mortal wounds.
In other words, this power has around a 24% chance of actually doing anything each time you attempt it. Compare that to the 83% chance of doing mortal wounds with Smite. Sure, it can theoretically deal 4 or more mortal wounds on your enemy, but the chances are miniscule under normal circumstances.
 
There are ways to improve this if you really want to invest, or if you've made the investment for other reasons and want to capitalize on it. Eye of the Unseen on an Interrogator Chaplain backed up by this power against low LD hordes? Now you've got a useful power. LD 6, -2, against your 2d6 roll. That's a lot better, but how often is that actually going to come up on the table?
 
Mind Wipe
58% chance of casting.
Did I not just get done saying that a 25-30% chance of achieving anything was bad? This one is even worse because the targets you will naturally want to pick will have LD equal to yours, if not higher!
The best tactical advice for this power is to look through your opponent's army and codex before picking it. Does any single model in his army with nasty weapons (anti-tank/strong close combat weapons) have LD lower than 9? If not, pick something else!
If by some miracle there is a nasty model in his army with low leadership, you still need to get within 18" and succeed on an approximate 1/3 chance. Yes, the effect lasts to the end of the battle, but if the target is that much of a problem, you're going to be killing it soon anyway.
Leave this power at home. Better yet, cross it out of your codex. It's a trap!
 
Ok, that was a bit negative. What would you use this on? Units with 20+ wounds that will take multiple turns to destroy. Use it every turn to continually reduce the stats of a Shadowsword or Necron Pylon. Each time you succeed, the next attempt gets easier.
In the absence of titanic/gargantuan units, focus on vehicles and monsters which have 10+ wounds and a degradation table. Each time you succeed, this will be like forcing the target an extra step down that table due to the reduced BS and WS.
 
In a pinch, this can also be used in combination with our LD modifying friends, the Eye of the Unseen and Interrogator Chaplain.
 
Engulfing Fear
72% chance of casting.
This is another one which relies on your target having a low leadership score. At least there's not a roll off this time, but that's because there's a hidden roll off. You have to cause enough slain models in the target unit(s) this turn to trigger potential morale failures. And even then, your opponent may roll low enough to save himself, or use a stratagem to bypass the check altogether.
 
 

Tactical Objectives
Spoiler:

We don’t get to choose these, but they’re still worth examining.
Just like previous editions, I’d be much happier with the standard 11-16 objectives from Maelstrom. These suck.
Not One Step Back
We’re not less likely to fail morale than other marines, so this is actually a bit tricky. Grim Resolve does let us use ATSKNF more freely as discussed above, but this is still a risky card to hold onto. The mission you’re playing needs to factor into your decision. Are you going to be able to draw other achievable cards by getting rid of this one after a single turn? It’s a gamble – if you’re stuck in place, unable to push forward to capture numbered objectives, it may be beneficial to hang onto this for longer but that D3 could always be a 1 anyway. Really you’ll be choosing between 1 or 3 turns and 3 turns is a very long time in 40k.
On the other hand, if you’re running a lot of Deathwing, this is brilliant because you’re immune to morale anyway.

No Forgiveness
This is like a trickier version of Overwhelming Firepower, without the benefit of extra points for exceeding the requirements.

Confess!
You have to have an Interrogator-Chaplain or Librarian to even use this card. If you drew it, pray you have a Librarian, because a crozius arcanum is a terrible weapon to rely on.
In fact, given house rules for discarding unachievable objectives, I’d say this is another nail in the librarians’ coffins.
Seize and Interrogate
Assassination, again, but only in combat? Good god that’s terrible. We are not a combat army. Pray you have Deathwing Knights backed up by a lot of characters.

Flawless Strategy
Our chances of drawing this before having already deployed all Deathwing are ridiculously low. It’ll get discarded one way or another. Hopefully through house rules for auto-discarding.

The Path of Redemption
Charge a higher power rating… What units will we charge with? Expensive ones. Again, terrible.
 


Final Thoughts
Spoiler:

Getting the most out of the Dark Angels codex requires careful thinking. You simply cannot rely on the obvious choices being the best. If you want to play a Deathwing army for example, the obvious choice for your Warlord is Belial, but in reality, you're better off with an Interrogator Chaplain as your warlord. You can still take Belial in the list, just don't make him the warlord. By combining Belial's rerolls, the chaplain as the warlord with Master of Manoeuvre and the Eye of the Unseen, backed up by a Librarian and maybe a Deathwing Ancient, you can have a deep striking force that hits extremely hard on the first turn, and then maintains most of its hitting power, instead of one that teleports in, fails half of its charges and gets torn to pieces.
 
This is just one example.
 
 

Combinations
Spoiler:

Here are some sample units for making good use of specific rule combinations:
Deep Alpha strike ~800 pts
Drop pod, containing:
Azrael & 5 devastators w/ 4 multi meltas, lieutenant and 3 veterans.
Accompanied by 10 tartaros terminators armed to the teeth.
Use Deathwing Assault combined with Azrael and Lieutenant auras to clear a sizeable hole in any nearby troops while the multi-meltas take care of a monster or tank. The veterans are just there to fill seats and can head off on their own direction to grab an objective, keep them cheap with storm bolters and chainswords.
~800 points to destroy your opponent's backfield. And the terminators are then free to move with Azrael to pincer any units that moved into the midfield. With luck there will even be an objective that one of the doors of the pod can capture.

Sniper HQ
Primaris Master + Primaris Lieutenant +scouts. The HQs take Stalker bolt rifles and the scouts take sniper rifles.
1x 35/36 + 1x 32/36 S4 D2 AP-2 shots. Or in other words, two nearly guaranteed hits.
This is a brilliant idea. Right up until you remember only the warlord has Huntsman.
Nevermind.
It’s still useful, but the lieutenant doesn’t get anywhere near the benefit. Probably better have a regular lieutenant tooled for combat to rescue your scouts if they get charged. He won’t be able to shoot the same targets.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/26 13:39:52


Post by: Breng77


Just a note- when you mention weapons of the dark age you have 6 inceptors as 6d3 shots. Remember each inceptors has 2 plasma exterminators so 6 of the would have 12d3(24) shots. point for point the are the most efficient target for WOTDA.

10 Black knights = 460 points for 20 shots = 23 points per shot
10 Helblasters = 330 points for 20 shots (if you get in range) 16.5 points per shot (350 points for assault version of you want more range on double shots 17.5 points per shot)
6 plasma inceptors = 354 points for an average of 24 shots or 14.75 points per shot.

One note is helblasters have better AP and durability




Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/26 14:53:34


Post by: Timur


Is it actually possible to stack several mind wipes on one model like a shadowsord? Sounds kinda OP to be true, like stacking multiple darkshrouds


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/26 15:17:05


Post by: Breng77


It seems like you can, that said it would take multiple turns to do so, thus it seems unlikely to really be super viable.

1) you need to get in 18" range
2.) pass a wc 7 psychic test (about 70% is you use a re-roll strat is you fail and have a 4+ on one dice)
3.) not get denied if applicable let's put this at 20% chance
4.) pass an opposed LD test which unless you are otherwise lowering its LD is against LD 8 about 60% (70% with re-roll if you did not use it already and have CP)

So assuming 1 cp is used somewhere along the way you have about a 35% chance of it going off the first time. The second is a bit easier due to lower enemy LD, but that assumes you live. So I would not really call it OP



Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/26 17:02:48


Post by: axisofentropy


Breng77 wrote:
Just a note- when you mention weapons of the dark age you have 6 inceptors as 6d3 shots. Remember each inceptors has 2 plasma exterminators so 6 of the would have 12d3(24) shots. point for point the are the most efficient target for WOTDA.

10 Black knights = 460 points for 20 shots = 23 points per shot
10 Helblasters = 330 points for 20 shots (if you get in range) 16.5 points per shot (350 points for assault version of you want more range on double shots 17.5 points per shot)
6 plasma inceptors = 354 points for an average of 24 shots or 14.75 points per shot.

One note is helblasters have better AP and durability


thanks for sharing the math, I'll add this to the OP. This is what I've been screaming since we saw the strategem. It's true that inceptors are less durable on the table, but deep strike means they'll never get hurt before they shoot at least once.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/26 17:32:34


Post by: Breng77


Except against eldar potentially. The biggest thing I have found is 6 inceptors is often overkill so 2x3 tend to work better


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though 1 big unit can combat squad so if there is a single big target to remove that can be the way to go.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/26 20:25:30


Post by: anticitizen013


Breng77 wrote:
Except against eldar potentially. The biggest thing I have found is 6 inceptors is often overkill so 2x3 tend to work better


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though 1 big unit can combat squad so if there is a single big target to remove that can be the way to go.

The other thing is you can split all your fire too, so you'd get maximum usage out of a unit of 6, popping the strat, and having 3 fire at one enemy and 3 at another (or however you want to split it).


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/27 00:14:31


Post by: Swillsswil


Zustiur wrote:
Here's the first draft of my full codex review. Happy reading. I welcome any and all feedback. In fact, the more feedback the better!

p.s. I hate writing in forum code, so apologies for any odd formatting. I'm happy to make the word doc available for anyone interested in reading in a nicer format.
Chapter Traits
Spoiler:

Grim Resolve (requires pure detachment)
On the one hand, the re-rolling 1s part of this means our armies will be even less inclined to move. On the other hand, it actually frees us to move somewhat more frequently. Let me explain; Hitting on a 3+ rerolling 1s is obviously a strong incentive to stay still, but there two reasons this means we can move more often. The first reason is that because we hit slightly more often with our heavy weapons this way, there will be more occasions where we have destroyed all visible targets, and can therefore move. The second reason is that our Company Masters no longer need to remain in our DZ inspiring our fire base. In fact, we now have fewer reasons to take company masters in the first place, which frees up a chunk of points to consider our other HQ options.

A key point to remember with this rule is that committing to using it every turn will hamper you in a lot of ways. Think of this more as a nice bonus for 3 turns of the game. If you have a reason to move, move. Do not throw away objectives or better fields of fire just to retain a reroll. We are not alone in having a chapter wide rule which isn't used 100% of the time, and that's not a bad thing.

Never losing more than one model at a time due to morale may not seem like much, especially when using 5 man units. However, there are occasions when that will be particularly beneficial. Perhaps not every game, but definitely occasions. For example, in my first tournament of 8th edition, I encountered two games against Night Lords. They apply a LD modifier for each of their units near the unit taking a morale check. This cost me a surprising number of models. Models which I would not have lost had this codex been out already.

Additionally, this means we get to get some more use out of And They Shall Know No Fear. No matter what you roll on that second attempt, the result will never be worse. No more rerolling a 5 to a 6 and losing additional models.

Ravenwing
On its own, 4+ jink may not be all that impressive, especially when many Ravenwing weapons cannot fire after advancing. Bikes are primarily shooting units, even the black knights, so advancing isn't a frequent occurrence. This shines however when we look at stratagems later.

Bikes will often want to move, and with this, now they will often want to advance. This means the stationary requirement of Grim Resolve is of limited use. However, it does still exist and perhaps the best way to use Ravenwing now is to alternate between advancing and remaining stationary. Land Speeders, sadly, are likely to want to remain stationary all game.
Remember, whether a unit moves or not doesn't matter, it's the model that matters. You can leave an attack bike stationary, while moving the other bikes around it (daisy chain!) to keep the accuracy on the most important model. The same trick can apply to the special weapons in the unit.

Inner Circle (formerly Deathwing)
Auto-passing morale reduces the value of Grim Resolve for Deathwing. On the other hand, you can look at this as Grim Resolve +1, because now we never lose more than 0 models to morale. Rerolling against Fallen is useless, except when it isn't. I don't know anyone who plays Fallen.

Combat Squads
It’s worth remembering that this rule only applies to a full sized unit. Without taking full sized units, we may as well not have the rule. Take large units, find out what your opponent has, and deploy accordingly. If you obviously aren’t going to finish deploying first, there’s little harm in splitting your units. Just remember to match this to how you intend to use your auras.
 


Units
HQ
Spoiler:

Azrael
Having Azrael as your warlord in a typical army (battalion) effectively gives you 3 extra CPs. 1 immediately and 2 you’ll get from Brilliant Strategist. 3 CPs gives your army a surprising amount of flexibility – more than enough to make up for Azrael’s own lack of mobility.

Azrael's invulnerable save aura has many uses, as does his reroll aura. Given devastators are going to be getting rerolls simply from standing still now, Azrael really wants to be moving. He can't keep up with bikes, but he can happily keep up with regular marines, primaris marines and terminators. That 4++ can be particularly useful near standard or tartaros terminators as you get the benefit of cataphractii without the penalty.

The Sword of Secrets is a good weapon, though in certain situations a power fist or thunder hammer would be preferable. The Lion’s Wrath on the other hand is just a master crafted bolter on a regular combi plasma gun. You do not choose your army based on either of these items, but they are good in their own right.

Azrael always wants to be surrounded by as many units as possible to hand out many re-rolls. Beware of parking-lot syndrome where your warlord spends his whole time surrounded by tanks, not directly contributing anything to the battle.

Belial
The Sword of Secrets makes Belial an excellent choice for your army. He’s a character and monster killer. This is helped by having the Huntsman warlord trait which aids you in getting him into combat with the enemy models which you most need to kill. 2 damage may seem low, but with wounding on 2s and AP -3 few characters will survive more than a few hits. Belial is an assassin and should be used as such. This is compounded by Parrying Blade which helps to preserve your warlord in one-on-one combat with enemy beat-sticks.
His benefits as an aura producer are more questionable. He needs to be surrounded by combat units (assault marines, veterans or deathwing) to clear out the chaff so he can focus on killing his preferred targets. It’s questionable which Deathwing units he benefits most, and this is something which bears further investigation.
One thing is certain, this is not a model for baby-sitting your firebase. Belial always needs to be in the thick of the fighting, probably via deep strike.

Sammael
Correct usage of Sammael is tricky. Taken as an individual, he’s a skirmisher – always wanting to shoot and charge, fall back, shoot, charge. However, virtually nothing else in your army can do the same thing, so you must take care not to get him stranded. Always fall back, always shoot, and charge back into the same combat if you have to.
Jink is irrelevant – he has a 4+ invulnerable anyway. Only advance when capturing objectives. Speaking of which, he’s our best chance at claiming Priority Orders Received.
Choosing units to provide rerolls to is also tricky. Land Speeders never want to be moving due to their heavy weapons, whereas Sammael should always be moving. He cannot keep up with the minimum move of aircraft for more than a turn. That leaves the various bikes. Black Knights are the only ones to truly benefit in both shooting and fight phases, but they’re too expensive to take en masse. Instead, take a healthy mix of regular bikes, black knights and make sure you bring a Ravenwing Ancient for the extra attacks (remember Sammael benefits from that too).
...on Corvex
The strengths of Corvex are the higher strength and AP of its plasma cannon and its price. Otherwise, Sableclaw is better in every way. The plasma cannon is dubious at best, providing too few shots to really compete with the twin assault cannon. Even against its preferred T6 and T7 targets, the greater chance of wounding doesn’t counteract the extra shots.
Corvex should be your choice for small games where points or power is at a premium.
...in Sableclaw
An extra wound, a lot of shots and best of all, no temptation to risk Gets Hot.
Sableclaw has a hidden benefit of being a larger model, thus providing a slightly larger bubble of rerolls.

Asmodai
Compared to an interrogator chaplain, Asmodai’s key benefit is the bonus attacks for infantry and bikes. Sadly, he lacks the mobility to work with bikes and jump units, so he’s limited to drop pod and rhino units- assault marines and veterans.

Ezekiel
Ezekiel is the most resilient Librarian. 2+, 4++, 5W. Like many of our named characters, he wants to be in the middle of combat where his aura takes effect. Otherwise, the best argument in his favour is his ability to deny two powers per turn. For approximately 1.5 librarians, you get the defensive benefit of 2 librarians.

Master
Discussion of the Master really needs to answer the question, ‘why not take Azrael instead?’ Possible answers to this question are: mobility, parking lot, mixed detachments (no Grim Resolve fixed with Courage of the First Legion), combi-melta (see Huntsman) and cost.
Of these, parking lot and cost will often go together. For less than half of Azrael, you can boost your tanks and land speeders without ever ‘wasting’ your combat potential.
...in terminator armour/cataphractii
If you want a storm shield, but still want two weapons, consider cataphractii. Otherwise, the benefit of terminator armour is deep strike, 2+ save, and the overpriced chainfist option. If you’re not planning to deep strike, I’d avoid this as the other benefits are tiny.
...Gravis
The lack of options for this model makes it very unappealing. The gauntlet makes the sword pointless against anything other than T3 characters.
...Primaris (not gravis)
There are a few options here, perhaps the most appealing is the stalker- coupled with Huntsman, you can make your warlord into a sniper. This is likely the most appropriate choice for your parking lot as he can contribute meaningfully to the battle while providing his aura to your tanks. He’s not even that expensive.
Standard Build: Master Crafter Stalker Bolt Rifle + Huntsman trait.

Librarian
See Psychic Powers.
Librarians are not a powerhouse in our codex; take them for power denial first and foremost. Force weapons are essentially master crafted power weapons. Smite is ok, but our other powers don’t warrant the cost a librarian.
...in terminator armour
You pay a lot to keep an unimportant model alive. You’d be better off paying a few more points to take Ezekiel instead and get double the denies.
...on bike/Jump
While it’s true that speed helps us to use our short ranged powers, none of them are worth using to begin with, so why bother? The best this option offers is greater control over who you smite.
...Primaris
Extra attacks is a good thing.

Chaplain
There is little reason to take a standard chaplain on foot. Infantry horde assault army we are not. He also acts as a LD 9 boost for units, but given Grim Resolve and ATSKNF, that’s of limited benefit. It’s worth noting this is more useful if you take Dark Angels as allies in a mixed detachment.
...on bike
Allows you to accompany Ravenwing, where at least the re-rolls to hit can be put to decent use (corvus hammers).
...Jump
Deep strike on the cheap to help out terminators.
...Primaris
Like the plain foot chaplain, there is no point to this in a Dark Angels army.
...Interrogator Chaplain
Again, on foot there’s not much point. No point lowering LD of units out of range.
...Interrogator with jump pack
With a jump pack he can keep up with our assault units and push for that extra model slain thanks to LD reduction.
...Interrogator in terminator armour
Finally an option worth considering. In terminator armour, he’ll be right next to your Deathwing where he’s actually needed to compensate for the -1 to hit on power fists.

Lieutenant
As tempting as it is to arm this guy to the teeth, you’re probably better off leaving him as cheap as possible. In all likelihood, he’ll be standing with your firebase contributing little to the battle directly. A combi weapon is worth considering, but since that replaces the master crafted bolter, it’s less beneficial than normal.
His main benefit is to sit with your heavy weapons where that 1 to wound is most painful. Keep him with your devastators, hellblasters or tanks. Arm him for defence of those units. This means swapping the chainsword for a power sword (or axe).
...Jump
As always, the jump option is a consideration based on where you want the model to be. Only take this to support bikes, jump troops or deep striking units.
...Primaris
For those of us who are purists trying to keep primaris out of the Dark Angels, there are blessedly few reasons to take a Primaris Lieutenant. Mainly, it’s the extra attack and wound. Their weapon options aren’t impressive. The master crafted auto-bolt rifle is the only one really worthy of consideration here, potentially producing 4 damage per turn.
Even our currently unique access to a plasma pistol/power sword combo isn’t that impressive.

Talonmaster
Preventing your RW units' targets from benefiting from cover is particularly useful when you look at the plasma and melta options we have. Use your speed to get in range of your opponent's firebase (which will inevitably be in some cover) and blast away at them with your high AP weapons. Alternately, sit this guy near some Land Speeder Typhoons to bust lighter vehicles (T6&7) from afar.
Rerolling 1s to wound is always useful, no matter what units this guy happens to be near.

Additionally, this model has many of the strengths of Sammael – 18 mid strength AP-1 shots per turn on a platform that cannot be shot easily.

Techmarine
It’s easy to overlook the techmarine for his lack of aura and psychic powers. For just under the price of a basic lieutenant, you can fill an HQ slot with a power axe and optional power fist attack. This model can then keep your predators or other parking lot units alive (and firing at higher brackets) longer than they should. What’s more, he can help to screen them from combat by tying up enemy units that seek to tie up your tanks. He’s an excellent 2nd HQ in any battalion with multiple gun vehicles.
Best to replace his bolt pistol with a bolter or combi weapon so you can make use of the 2+ BS.
...on bike
Putting your techmarine on a bike would be useful in two situations; your vehicles are moving a lot or your vehicles are going to deploy spread out.
 


Troops
Spoiler:

These three units really need to be considered in relation to each other. The advantages listed below are in that context – not measured against other units in the codex.
Defenders of Humanity (Objective Secured)
This is actually a detachment rule, but since it only applies to troops…
There aren’t too many occasions where control of an objective is actually contested, but it’s a nice boost when available. Scouts get the most benefit, as they will both be forward (in the face of the enemy) and often have low numbers (due to easy casualties).
Tactical Squad
Advantages:
* Melta bombs
* Special, Heavy and Combi weapons
* Rhino/Razorback/Drop pod transport
Aside from that, they are the middle option in many ways. Better resilience than scouts, but not as good as intercessors, and so on. Technically scouts can go in transports too, but there’s no obvious reason to do so.
A proper analysis of Tactical Squads comes down to an analysis of their weapons, and combinations thereof. A squad should generally be given a fixed purpose, and armed accordingly. However, their role within the [lore] codex is as the ultimate generalists, and there is some value in arming them accordingly. The become the unit that’s not worth killing, while being able to threaten every possible enemy.

Special/Combi
Flamers are essentially short range, multi shot bolters. 9 points is a lot to pay to have a model standing around with no targets a lot of the time. The combi option is slightly more pleasing as at least he still gets to fire his bolter. D6 hits is equivalent to 3.5 * 6/4 = 5 ¼ bolter shots. So you’re paying 9 points for an increase by 3 ¼ shots at less than normal rapid fire range.
Grav guns and plasma guns fit almost entirely the same role, with grav being the better option against infantry, and plasma the better against vehicles and monsters. The longer range of plasma puts it ahead for defensive squads. Grav is more suited to a unit that will be in a transport to negate its range issues.
Meltaguns are best against opponents who rush you with vehicles (usually flyers) to act as a back-up threat- giving your opponent a reason NOT to get that close to you. When you don’t know your opponent, you’re probably better off looking to heavy weapons for your anti-tank capability, and leaving meltaguns for bikers.

Heavy
Grav cannons, like their smaller brother have issues with range. Put them in a rhino and hunt heavy infantry.
Heavy bolters make a good option for tactical squads in particular due to their low cost. Couple with plasma and combi-plasma for a unit that will sit in your fire-base, on an objective, screening your more vulnerable targets.
Lascannon is strangely one of the best options for tactical squads – especially squads of 5 with no other upgrades.
Missile launchers are just not worth it right now. You’re better off with lascannons against anything other than a true horde.
Multi-meltas should only be considered if you plan to drop pod, or know your opponent will rush you with vehicles/monsters.
Plasma cannons suffer like all former blast weapons from not having enough shots. They’re no good at killing vehicles and they don’t have enough shots to worry infantry. Again you’re better off with the lascannon.

Unit Size
People often bad mouth tactical marines for their lack of resilience for their cost. Yet those same people generally take minimum squads. A squad of 10 takes concerted effort to remove. Yes, taking two squads of 5 gives you more weapon options and a second sergeant, but that’s at increased unit count/kill points/deployment drops, and likely the cost of first turn. If you’re worried about saving points and wanting a small unit, stick with scouts.

So long as your weapon choices are sensible, tactical marines can be cheap, resilient and effective in one bundle. They’ll never be the star of the show in terms of output, but they’re consistent performers and low priority targets. Never underestimate the value of pouring 5 turns of bolt gun fire into your enemy, especially with 6’s always wound as a factor in the game.

Standard Builds:
10 man; grav, combi grav, grav cannon, rhino = 190 & 72 = 262 pts
10 man; plasma, combi plasma, heavy bolter = 168 pts
5 man; lascannon = 90 pts
[Not recommended] Generalist build: 10 man; melta-gun, combi-flamer, missile launcher = 193 pts

Scout Squad
Advantages:
* Cheapest troops unit at 55 points
* Can deploy virtually anywhere, allowing
* * Deployment on objectives
* * Deployment as a forward screen
* * Deployment 9" from a unit you want to assault
* Objective secured AND infiltrate combined to prevent first turn midfield objective grabs
* Small bases, and therefore small footprint allowing deployment into terrain that might be too small for other units
* Option for shotguns
* Option for sniper rifles
* Option for pistol and blade, while being objective secured
I have deliberately excluded camo cloaks from the list of advantages because it's no better than having power armour in cover instead. Additionally, the cost makes them more expensive than having power armour in the first place. You're paying more for scouts to have durability AND the infiltration. However, scouts should never be thought of as a durable unit precisely because of the infiltration. They will be the first to receive the brunt of enemy firepower, and will be much easier to charge than your tactical marines. Camo cloaks are no help in combat.
 
For forward screening, no unit in our codex does it better. For side screening, Company veterans are cheaper.
 
If we rule out camo cloaks, what wargear do we chose? That depends on what role you want to set them, and you MUST select a role.
Are they a screen in front of your army? Keep them cheap.
Are they a screen for your flanks in a castle deployment/aura focussed army? Sniper rifles for the range.
Are they to tie up enemy units in combat? Pistol and blade, or possibly shotgun for S5 goodness.
Are they to sit on mid-field objectives and stay put? Bolters for the range.
Heavy weapons should only be for units which are not screens and are not far forward. Otherwise they'll die too quickly. A heavy bolter may be tempting, but you've just pushed up from 55 to 63 points, entering Tactical Squad territory. Be truthful with yourself about how likely they are to die in the first turn or two.
Heavy weapons in a sniper unit are also very tempting as they'll be near your back line anyway, but you pay a lot for it, and reduce your sniping power in the process. If you bought snipers, don't you want to maximise the potential for those mortal wounds on characters?

Shotguns vs pistol and blade. If you get close enough, such as deploying 9" away then moving, you have the S5 of shotguns to work with. Against T4 and T8, that's an advantage for sure. 10 shots wounding on 3s instead of 4s or 5s instead of 6s. The rest of the time, the pistol and blade gets you a shot, and two close combat attacks instead of 1, with a potential extra shot in later rounds. Also, if you're thinking of going after a T8 unit (say, to lock it in combat) you already have krak grenades.

In addition to the above options for the unit as a whole, the infiltration can be used as a combi-weapon delivery system. The sergeant can take a combi weapon [via the index entry], which means you can get a flamer or melta in close range on turn 1 very easily.
 
A final use for them is as a distraction. Again keep them as cheap as possible, but deploy them behind LOS blocking cover vaguely near the enemy line. Don't worry about moving them to attack (unless he creates a vulnerable opening). Just wait for him to get paranoid and spend time moving to attack them - likely to be with a far more expensive unit- thus wasting his time.
Standard Builds:
5 man; pistol and sword for harassment of the enemy line = 55 pts
5 man; bolters for midfield objective holding = 55 pts
5 man; snipers for backfield/flank screening = 75 pts

Intercessors
 Advantages:
* Bolt rifles/Assault bolters/Stalker bolt rifles
* 2 wounds
* 2 attacks
* Aux. grenade launchers
Repulsor transport
Intercessors want to move a lot to make full use of their resilience and combat ability, so auto bolt rifles are tempting. The fact this gun has a cost is the problem. If they were the same price as regular bolt rifles, I could see uses for both. As it is, auto bolt rifles really only make sense on a unit which you intend to run into your opponent’s zone to capture objectives late game. Three turns of run and shoot gets you into their zone pretty reliably (28.5” average), where you can capitalise on Objective Secured. It likely won’t matter if you’re down to 1 model by turn 5, as many players neglect to leave troops on their home objectives.

However, outside of Maelstrom (where you want a faster unit anyway), there’s not a lot of reason to get across the table in 3 turns, so why not take all 5 turns and use the cheaper, more powerful bolt rifles? In the same 3 turns, you’re getting almost as many hits due to the -1 penalty for running.

Additionally; Reivers are cheaper than Intercessors with auto bolt rifles – yet come with heavy bolt pistols, shock grenades and Terror Troops.

Likewise, stalker bolt rifles suffer from having a cost. Without it they’d be contenders. With it, they’re just a trap option. Only take them when you also plan to ensure there’s an objective close to your own table edge. Sit them on it and rely on their range to remain useful. The -2 is great, but coupled with S4, D1 and crucially, 1 shot, they just aren’t that exciting. In this case, I’d stick with a unit of 5 also.

If standard bolt rifles are the best choice, how many do we want? We’ll rule out 6-9 due to Power and aux grenade launchers. 5 or 10 then? Per my note on combat squads, I recommend units of 10 as a general rule. The only advantage of 5 is having a second sergeant, and therefore potential second power sword. It’s something to consider when: a) you’re trying to maximise detachments for CPs, and; b) have points to spare which may as well go on more power swords.

Aux. grenade launchers get a lot of positive feedback. You’re giving up one or two shots with your main gun to fire at S6, D3. Since it’s only 1 point that’s probably worth it. However, it’s definitely an afterthought for when you have points left after army construction, not something to put on as a default.
Standard Builds:
10 man; bolt rifles = 180 pts
5 man; stalker bolt rifles = 100 pts
 

Elites
Spoiler:

Ancients
With the exception of Deathwing and Ravenwing, Ancients mostly provide the 4+ chance for an extra shot/attack. Note that this is models within 6”, not units and it only applies to infantry. The extra attack in the fight phase is more of a Deathwing thing, yet you’re pretty much prevented from using it that way due to having no mobility.
The leadership benefit is questionable in a Dark Angels army.
Picking where to use the chapter and company ancients is the tricky part. They want to be near a) lots of models, or b) models with very powerful guns. That means heavy concentrations of tactical marines (a rare choice to begin with), hellblasters or devastators. The internet seems to like pairing them with hellblasters, but for the price, you could just take more hellblasters.
...Chapter Ancient
Make that free attack more likely to hit. Same weapon options as Company Ancient.
...Company Ancient
The key advantage of this option is the chance to take combi weapons or melee weapons.
...Primaris Ancient
6 points for a better gun, extra wound and extra attack. Seems good, but it means you can’t take a melee weapon, which you might want.
...Deathwing
Consider this option whenever planning a deep strike assault. Great with any terminators, but especially great with power fists/thunder hammers because it provides the additional attacks they need to overcome their hit penalty.
...Ravenwing
Given the lack of attacks Ravenwing have in general, this guy is almost a must-take. Being able to provide a large bubble of extra attacks is extremely beneficial.

Apothecary
Apothecaries exist to use their narthecium. That means either healing characters or resurrecting models.
Resurrecting models is not guaranteed, and in fact, from an army planning point of view, is only going to succeed twice during the game (5 turns /2, rounding down because of various factors including apothecary death). If you’re really planning to use this, it must be on units with very expensive models. Frankly, that means Deathwing knights or Ravenwing black knights. Nothing else warrants the cost. Even inceptors aren’t going to be worth the cost of an apothecary that can keep up (RW).
The real use is in keeping your characters alive. An apothecary backing up a close combat strike force of beat-sticks is invaluable as you’ll be keeping very expensive models alive, without any need for a 4+ roll to succeed. Put him in the same delivery system as the characters themselves, be that bike, deep strike, land raider or drop pod.
...Primaris
These have the most interesting gun, but that’s really all there is to say. Their statline appears to be missing the extra attack that primaris models normally get.
...Deathwing
The obvious choice to pair with Deathwing Knights, and some characters.
...Ravenwing
The obvious choice to pair with Ravenwing Black Knights or Inceptors. Generally the best choice of the lot due to his ability to keep up with your characters, no matter their method of movement.

Champions
Champions do nothing for the units around them. They are combat characters. Each has essentially the same S7 melee weapon, which is good, but just means wounding on 3s. Oddly enough, they make pretty good vehicle hunters.
...Company Champion
Sadly this guy has the problem of most power armour character. No range coupled with no mobility. He is very cheap though, making for an excellent counter-attack character to help defend your firebase.
...Deathwing Champion
This guy may well be the star of the champions due to his extra weapon rule granting additional attacks. He’s the most versatile because he isn’t wasted in fighting infantry.
The Deathwing champion is also the most capable on his own. He can deep strike into tight corners, hide until the following turn then move out to strike characters, vehicles or even infantry.
...Ravenwing Champion
The advantage of this model is obviously his speed and plasma talons. This is the champion best suited to actual character hunting. He can move into position to get clear shots, turbo-boosting if necessary, taking the S7 plasma shots then charging to finish the job. Many actual assassins would struggle to do the same.

Imperial Space Marine
The disintegration gun is essentially a combi-grav. It just does more damage. He’s a bit like a lieutenant with combi-grav and grav pistol, but he’s traded the reroll to wound for the price of the guns.

Aggressor Squad
If you want lots of S4 AP0 shots, there does not seem to be a better way to get it. These guys put out more than tactical marines, more than intercessors with auto bolt rifles, more than inceptors, more than terminators. They have powerfists just like terminators. In fact, if you don’t need cyclone missile launchers and you aren’t planning to deep strike, these guys are a better choice than terminators.
Thanks to their special rules, these guys will either be standing still or advancing. There is never a reason to move normally. This means you can get them into firing range on turn 1 on a roll of 2+.

Company Veterans
Like most units in the game, you really need to have a purpose in mind when selecting company veterans. It’s very easy to make this into an extraordinarily expensive unit, while remaining no harder to kill than a tactical squad. Their veteran status does nothing to improve their durability. For this reason they are prime candidates for putting in transports.
As the cheapest unit in our codex, a basic unit of two company veterans with bolters can be used to secure a flank in your deployment zone – preventing enemy deep strike due to the 9” rule. This is a great option to consider if you’re planning an army which will castle deploy or which will very quickly move up the battlefield – you can afford to leave them in your deployment zone to prevent your enemy appearing behind your force to divide your attention. Just remember to deploy them out of LOS, or you’ll be handing your opponent First Blood for free.
The option for storm shields appears to be a trap – they’ll die just as fast to regular AP0 weapons as any other marine, so giving them a 3++ is no real defence. Combat shields fair little better, as they pay a lot for being an additional item rather than a replacement.
With universal access to combi-weapons and near universal access to special weapons, they can hold a lot of firepower. From plasma for use with Weapons from the Dark Age, to be used at range, to melta in a rhino to destroy a super heavy, to power weapons and chainswords to massacre infantry, they can be given any role.
On foot, I believe it’s best to keep them cheap – storm bolters and chainswords gives them a great number of attacks, without bumping them up past the cost of intercessors. This is also one of the best loadouts for use as body guards, as you are not going to want to lose an expensive model each time your protected character gets hit.
Against hordes, take combi-flamers and mount up in a razorback with twin heavy flamers.

Standard Builds:
Screen = 2 man; bolters = 32 pts
Horde v1 = 5 man; storm bolters, chainswords = 90 pts
Horde v2 = 5 man; 5 combi flamers, chainswords = 135 pts, in a razorback with twin heavy flamers (104)
Superheavy = 5 man; 4 melta guns, 1 combi melta = 167 pts in a rhino or razorback
General = 5 man; 4 plasma guns, 1 combi plasma, chainswords = 157
Melee = 5 man; 5 power axes, 5 chainswords = 105 pts, probably 2 units, in a land raider, probably with character support (chaplain?).

Deathwing Terminators
With the introduction of aggressors, there is even less reason to deploy terminators normally. You’re paying for the ability to deep strike. Use it, but use it wisely. Teleporting in to a hornets’ nest unsupported is just going to get you killed. Do not rely on charging when you arrive either, not only will you fail even with re-rolls, it won’t save you from many enemies as they can fall back and shoot you with everything else in the army. Drop into cover, give yourself 1+ saves and shoot until someone is foolish enough to come close, or until you can move safely.
Our heavy weapon options aren’t brilliant, but getting 4 shots with a cyclone missile launcher through the Deathwing Assault stratagem isn’t a terrible idea. If you’re really game, take 10 models and get 8 shots this way. That’s enough to put a hole in anything. However, there may be a better candidate for this in Tartaros.
As a general rule, the plasma cannon is a bad idea, the heavy flamer will be out of range all game and the missile launcher is too expensive. Stick with assault cannons and focus on killing infantry.
Thunder hammer/storm shield terminators are outclassed by Deathwing Knights. Lightning claw terminators suffer from the perpetual mobility problem.
...Cataphractii
 Cataphractii are more expensive at first glance. However, they can reduce their price somewhat by swapping power fists for lightning claws. This coupled with the 4++ makes for a tempting ‘deploy’ unit rather than a deep struck one, however, see aggressors. The heavy flamer is never a good choice for cataphractii due to the slower movement.
...Tartaros
Tartaros share lightning claw option discussed above for cataphractii. This actually makes them the cheapest terminator option, until you add in the plasma blaster and heavy weapon.

The reaper autocannon is tricky. On one hand, it's a poor man's assault cannon with only 4 shots. On the other hand it does have S7 which makes it significantly better at hurting medium vehicles (T6, T7). It also has better range, meaning it will be free to target other units more often than the assault cannon.

The sergeant's weapon options provide the other key difference for this unit. Sadly the volkite charger is Heavy on a unit that wants to be moving a lot, therefore the plasma blaster is generally the better choice - it pairs well with the reaper autocannon, being the same strength and therefore often having the same desired targets.

Deathwing Knights
Deathwing Knights are brilliant, but expensive. The flat 3 damage on the maces and the carry-over of wounds from the flail make them good against all manner of units. The price makes you want to have a minimum unit of 5, but the unit can still be focussed down quickly. Adding an extra body or two is a good idea, as is supporting them with a Deathwing Ancient, chaplain or Belial.
As with all terminators, don’t deep strike into a hornets’ nest and don’t rely on a first turn charge.

Reiver Squad
Grav chutes vs grapnel is like deep strike vs outflank (including enemy table edge!), plus the vertical movement ability, which is mini fly. Grapnels win.
In most situations, the bolt carbine (assault bolt rifle!) is going to be better than the heavy bolt pistol because sheer volume of fire outweighs a d6 modifier of 1.
This is a unit with no clear role other than being in the enemy deployment zone. Intercessors do most of the same job for the same price without the deep strike/outflank ability (which costs extra anyway). The funny thing is, Reivers are cheaper than Intercessors with auto bolt rifles – yet come with heavy bolt pistols, shock grenades and Terror Troops.
The other factor is Terror Troops -1 LD, but that is so short ranged as to only be useful in combat. This might make them combo well with a librarian, but it isn’t a compelling reason to take them in the first place.

Servitors
Do not do anything to help tech marines anymore. They’re cheap single attack powerfists, but they’re going to hit on 6s, so never take. The BS 5+ makes the heavy weapons useless too.

Dreadnought
Regular dreadnoughts work well as a defensive unit – helping to keep your predators and devastators safe. For this reason, keeping the power fist is a good idea.
All dreadnoughts benefit from Grim Resolve’s reroll
Standard Builds:
Assault cannon, power fist, storm bolter: 134 pts
Twin lascannon, power fist, storm bolter: 162 pts
...Venerable Dreadnought
20 points more for BS 2+. A good option for heavy weapon dreadnoughts. Unless you’re short on points, this is a straight upgrade and always worth taking.
Cheaper than predators, with a reroll, hitting on 2s, but with a worse second gun (missile launcher). If they could take quad lascannons they’d be the same price, but hitting 35/36 instead of 24/36. No-brainer. To the best of my knowledge, there is no venerable mortis dreadnought.
Standard Builds:
Twin lascannon/missile launcher: 165 pts
Quad autocannon: 156 pts
...Contemptor Dreadnought
For the first 8 wounds, this dread is as good as, or better than the standard dreadnought so don’t be put off by the damage table. What it lacks is weapon options. There aren’t many targets for S7 D1 weapons in this game because there aren’t enough low wound T6 models (like carnifexes and land speeders). That makes the kheres assault cannon look like a regular assault cannon. Yes it can hurt T7 on 4s, but it doesn’t have the damage value or AP to back that up.
The multi melta looks like a better option, because unlike regular dreadnoughts, this one has a bit of extra speed to make use of that weapon. On turn 2 you’ll be in half range.
Standard Build:
Multi melta, fist, storm bolter: 167 points.
...Redemptor Dreadnought
 This unit is just weird, but then so is the repulsor. So many guns, so little coordination between them. Both main weapons are genuinely good, for very different targets. There’s never a reason not to swap the heavy flamer for the onslaught Gatling cannon. Likewise, you should swap the grenade launchers for storm bolters. Both of these changes make the model (slightly) cheaper. Then it’s just the question of plasma vs Gatling.
Unlike a regular plasma weapon, this one has enough shots to matter.
Standard Builds:
Plasma, Gatling, storm bolters, fist: 191 pts
Double Gatling, storm bolters, fist: 196 pts
 


Fast Attack
Spoiler:

Assault Squad
This is the only unit which can match Sammael’s skirmishing tactic of fall-back, shoot and charge again.
Assuming your intent is to get into combat; Jump packs are almost mandatory. If you don’t put them in a drop pod or rhino, you’re going to need the packs to get anywhere.
In the age of primaris, assault marines are as lost as ever. They simply don’t have enough attacks to be a credible threat on their own. This makes them fall by default into a sort of fire support role, where plasma pistols are your best option. Take a small unit, bounce around into cover, then put some plasma into an otherwise protected unit. Consider melta bombs instead of the third pistol (on the sergeant).
Forget eviscerator, a single 4+ to hit is never going to be worth 22 points.
Flamers may be of use, but as always, they are just like bolter hits, so of questionable value compared to just taking more bolters elsewhere.

If you want to use them in their traditional role of jump assault troops, flamers and a power axe or fist should make for a capable unit. Take the fist and add in melta bombs and now you have a sergeant capable of causing up to 12 wounds on a vehicle while his mates clear out the chaff. Also good for surprising an enemy character.

There is an alternate use of assault squads to consider – that of an inverse distraction carnifex. Instead of being an obvious threat, and therefore shot, they are an obvious non-threat, so may go unmolested. Advance them up the board on foot, with no upgrades, until they either get into combat with something, or protect your other units by posing as a distraction.
Standard Build:
5 man, 3 plasma pistols, jump packs: 101 pts
10 man, 2 flamers, power fist, melta bombs: 195

Inceptor Squad
A deep striking unit that doesn’t want to land exactly 9” away. How refreshing. Twin short ranged heavy bolters for a comparable price to two devastators with heavy bolters. High mobility coupled with decent ranged weapons. There’s a lot to like about this unit.
The plasma option is alright, but significantly more expensive. It’s one of highest rate-of-fire sources of plasma in the book. The fact it can get easily to targets which might otherwise be hidden makes it very useful, but I think the bolter option is better most of the time. The plasma option makes them too obvious a target, and will likely get them killed before they cause much damage.
Pick a target, land in cover, shoot a lot, and move to more cover, repeat.
Standard Build:
5 man, assault bolters: 225 pts

Ravenwing Bike Squad
Chainswords vs bolt pistols. Chainswords are better if you're charging as it means more hits before the enemy strikes back. Bolt pistols are equal if you don't initiate the combat - you'll get punches in your opponent's fight phase, and then shoot him in your shooting phase. Chainswords are also better if you plan to fall back. So it's Chainswords 2, bolt pistols 0. Always swap to chainswords.
 
Taking the optional attack bike may seem pointless when you can take one separately. Remember that there’s no limitation to fire at the same target anymore, and being in the same unit reduces your number of kill points and deployment drops.

Special weapons should always be paired. You get plenty of plasma elsewhere, and these are a one of the few units able to make proper use of flamers and meltas. Pick one of those, depending on what you want out of the unit. If you go with melta, consider the attack bike with multi melta, as it can be behind your other models, and still be in melta-half-range, neatly avoiding any issues you might have with tight gaps in terrain.

* An argument has been made that 3 bikes, each with plasma/combi plasma plus their regular bolters is actually more firepower for fewer points than black knights. This is true. You get the same number of plasma shots (within 12”), plus 4 bolter shots per model, which outweighs the potential 2 corvus hammer attacks. And that’s without the regular bikers having to charge (which they can do on top with chainswords...). It’s more powerful and cheaper but cannot be made into a larger squad without losing efficiency. Note that this option comes from the Index, not the codex, but is still valid.

If you’re taking upgrades, look at getting extra models to soak up the initial wounds. 6 models works well for Power as well as points. It has historical value (from the 6th ed codex) where 6 bikes was the max.

If you just want them for the mobility, take a squad of 3 with no upgrades (other than the free chainsword obviously), but consider scout bikers instead. On second thoughts, give the sergeant a melta bomb. It’s still very cheap, but gives them an option to cause some damage if/when the opportunity presents itself. However, don’t let it distract you. This unit’s objective is objectives not fighting.
Standard Builds:
3 man, 3 chainswords, melta bombs = 80 pts
6 man, 5 chainswords, combi melta, 2 melta guns = 203 + optional attack bike with multi-melta 62 = 265
6 man, 5 chainswords, 2 flamers = 168

Ravenwing Attack Bike Squad
Heavy bolters don't typically benefit much from being on a mobile platform because targets for heavy bolters are so plentiful. Multi-meltas do benefit a great deal. Furthermore, in a pure Ravenwing list, your bikes will generally provide your anti-infantry fire power through sheer bolter volume. The weapon choice is easy - Multi melta every time.
The tougher question is when should you take an attack bike squad? The answer appears to be – in Pure Ravenwing lists. If you don’t have lascannons because you’ve eschewed devastators and predators, you’ll need the anti-tank/monster oomph of multi meltas.

Ravenwing Land Speeders
Land speeders cost as much as razorbacks, with far lower stats, similar weapon options and more speed. Land speeders don’t have transport capacity, but people aren’t using razorbacks as transport anyway. Hopefully land speeders will see another points decrease in the future, but until then, their best loadout is dual heavy flamers – advance every turn (jink), ignore the shooting penalty. Put that 16+1d6” to work by making an 8” gun useful. Think of them like flyers- with a minimum move of 17” a turn, don’t expect to stay in one place firing at the same target twice, keep moving.
Taking a unit of 3 or more increases their speed, making the heavy flamers even easier to use. However, 3 of these cost a comparable price to 2 whirlwinds, so choose wisely.

Ravenwing Black Knights
Black knights are a truly powerful unit, but people know this so they will draw a lot of fire. They are no tougher than regular bikes, so keep them protected. Plasma is great against so many targets, and you have adequate combat power to back it up. Keep Sammael and/or an RW ancient and/or a Talonmaster nearby.
Try to only charge units which have been damaged enough that you’ll kill them this turn or in your opponent’s turn. You don’t want to be stuck in combat on your next turn. Additionally, only charge when it’s heavily in your favour. The rest of the time, you want to be kiting around 18” to make the most of getting 2 shots at full range. This obviously depends on your target and what weapons/range they have. Against 24” rapid fire, it is actually quite a powerful trick to minimise return fire.
I don’t see value in the grenade launchers because I don’t see value in trading AP -3 for 1d3 damage. The things you want to do the extra damage to are likely to save.

Ravenwing Darkshroud
This is a sizeable investment, but well worth it in the right situations. If you want to use a darkshroud, ensure you’ve got a cluster of units to benefit from it – whether that is a fire base, cluster of bikes or just a mass of infantry walking up the board.
A dark shroud is not something to be taken as an afterthought; you must incorporate it into your plan.
As for the weapon, take it matched on what you’re trying to protect. If it’s your firebase, you need the range of the heavy bolter.

Ravenwing Land Speeder Vengeance
The vengeance has a damage value of 2, making it one of the few plasma weapons to be specialised at killing multi-wound, multi-model units. On the other hand, for the same price you could have 3 more black knights – putting out a more reliable number of shots.
With two heavy weapons, this isn’t going to want to move, so the assault cannon is likely a poor choice. You need the range of the heavy bolter to ensure you can shoot all the time. It’s cheaper too.

Scout Bike Squad
It’s weird that these guys have more weapons than their fully trained counterparts.
Stick with the bolters unless you’re hunting vehicles… and if you’re hunting vehicles, there are better ways to spend your points.
They are faster than regular bikes but have less armour. Good for quick objective grabs, but you better keep them out of sight when they’re not needed.
Standard Build:
No upgrades. 3 models, used for capturing objectives only.
 

Heavy Support
Spoiler:

Tanks do not get Grim Resolve. Infantry, bikes and dreadnoughts do. For Dark Angels, that means a reduced reason to take them. Bear this in mind for the rest of this section.
Devastator Squad
I think there are only two sensible options for devastators at the moment. Lascannons and heavy bolters. This unit always wants to sit still, so grav and multi-melta are both out. Plasma and missiles both suffer from not enough shots against infantry and not enough punch against vehicles.
Taking 4 weapons in a minimum squad just makes the unit too much of a target. Always include enough extra bodies to keep your heavy weapons alive when the unit gets shot in the first turn. This can be by not taking 4 weapons, or by purchasing the extra models.
If you’re taking single shot weapons, the armorium cherub is like having a hunter killer missile, for one point less. If you have lascannons, it better and cheaper.
Standard Builds:
10 man; 4 lascannons, cherub = 235 pts
10 man; 4 heavy bolters = 170 pts

Hellblasters
Like Intercessors, this is really an analysis of guns.
Unlike Intercessors, the assault version actually has merit – it has the same AP and will wound infantry just as often. That means the extra shot from 15-24” is actually an improvement in firepower. They make an absolute mockery of regular marines and other MEQ. Terminators, as always will fall back on their invulnerable saves, so the -4 AP is wasted against the more elite targets.
For Dark Angels specifically, the standard version has more benefit – rerolling 1s makes overcharging a safer bet without the need for babysitting.
The heavy version looks like an anti-vehicle weapon, but isn’t. It doesn’t do enough wounds, even with overcharging and stratagems. This is because you’re not getting enough shots to capitalise on the increased damage.
Plasma pistol; if you’re hellblaster squad is in combat long enough to benefit from this; something has gone wrong because you’ve already lost an entire round of shooting. A single plasma pistol shot is not going to get you out of combat any faster. Run away instead. Let someone else shoot.
More than most units in our army, hellblasters really need support from other units- either as a screen or as combat characters to rescue them. The unit is just too tempting to shut down by engaging them in combat.
Standard Builds:
5/10 man; Plasma Incinerators = 165/330 points
5/10 man; Assault Plasma Incinerators = 175/350 points

Predator
Predators must be compared with devastator squads since they’re typically using the same weapons. The predator is cheaper, harder to hurt, can suffer the same number of wounds before losing efficiency. It can move much faster for those times when you have no targets. What it lacks is the signum benefit,
Standard Builds:
Autocannon/heavy bolters = 150
Quad-las cannon = 190

Vindicator
At first glance, the vindicator doesn’t get enough shots (D3), but a lot of the time, you’ll be aiming at units of 5 or more, so it’s actually a more respectable D6. It wounds the vast majority of infantry and bikes on 2s. Nevertheless it’s an odd unit, best aimed at multi-wound squads like terminators – units which are fairly rare to begin with.
Perhaps another way to think of it is as a razorback with twin (1d3 = 2 avg) lascannon. The demolisher is very similar to a lascannon vs vehicles. Considered like this, you’re paying 55 points for something which is roughly equivalent to a 50 point weapon. Not terrible. It’s a 5 point difference, with more versatility. The vindicator is tougher than the predator and rhino/razorback too.
In direct comparison with the predator then, the let-down is the lack of sponson weapons.

Whirlwind
Like the Vindicator above, it’s best to compare the whirlwind launcher with similar weapons. You have an option between twin auto-cannon (vengeance) and assault-cannon with 0 AP (castellan). Both cases have longer range and the ability to shoot hidden targets. The former seems like the better choice (which makes sense considering it’s the more expensive option).
Sadly S7 AP-1 isn’t that impressive in general as the majority of vehicles have Sv 3+. Averages: 4 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound, 0.5 failed saves.

Stalker
Very much like the whirlwind with vengeance launcher, but specialised at targeting flyers. The stalker gets more shots compared to the average whirlwind. It’s a 6 shot auto-cannon on T8 tracks.

Hunter
This is essentially a razorback with single lascannon specialised at targeting flyers. A pair of lascannons anywhere else in your army is going to do a better job; even with the -1 to hit they’ll suffer. Point for point, a quad-las predator is more efficient at destroying flyers.

Land Raider
It’s natural to think of terminators when we think of land raiders, but transporting terminators may not be the best use of their transport capacity. Terminators can teleport. Other units cannot. On the other hand, you can disembark, move and charge in a single turn, thus getting around the 9” charge issue associated with deep strike.
It’s easy to spot the weaknesses of a land raider: one is just under the price of two quad-lascannon predators, for example. Its strengths are in the 2+ save and the Power of the Machine Spirit.

The base version makes the best use of PotMS- as it’s the one with the most heavy weapons (not counting flame storm since they auto-hit anyway). Add a multi-melta on top and you have a vehicle which is particularly good at hunting other vehicles/monsters. So what should be inside it?

The answer to my mind is that you need an anti-infantry unit inside to balance it out. Veterans with one or more support characters for example. You could have veterans all armed with combi-flamers pop out in short range and absolutely roast an infantry screen, allowing the tank to focus on bigger game. The other answer is to fill it up with characters that have no transport options – the named characters.
...Crusader
The crusader has the most seats and is therefore the best option if you want to transport terminators – you can have a full squad and multiple support characters. As the tank is very much an anti-infantry vehicle, the unit inside needs to have an answer to vehicles and monsters. Whether this is in the form of melta guns or melee weapons is up to you. However, you really want to be charging to make use of the frag assault launchers’ mortal wounds.
...Redeemer
Much like the crusader, the redeemer is an anti-infantry vehicle. However, this one is more suited to hunting elite infantry with multiple wounds thanks to the 2 damage of the flamestorm cannons.
...Excelsior
 Acts as a master for rerolls of 1. Nice, but doesn’t really go in hand with Power of the Machine Spirit which makes you want to move away from your parking lot – which by nature will not want to move.
 


Dedicated Transport
Spoiler:

Rhino
Rhinos serve several purposes, not all of them are obvious: transport for tactical/assault/devastators squads, prevention of overwatch on your more fragile assault troops by charging first, line of sight blocking and objective capturing with a model that takes effort to kill.
When transporting units, pick the ones which have short range issues, advance turn 1, deploy, move shoot/charge. Often that means grav or melta for tactical and devastators. For assault marines, it’s like paying over double for jump packs, admitting you’ll only use them once, then having the tank itself take the overwatch and/or continue on its own separate mission.
...Rhino Primaris
This is a very expensive option with a nasty one-shot weapon. You only want it for its ability to add 1 to the BS of a nearby unit. That’s very handy, but for the price, you can probably take another of the same unit (or 50% thereof). For example, a predator with twin las and heavy bolters is only 10 points more, so why increase the BS of a predator? For 15 points more, you can have 5 more hellblasters.
It’s cool, but not something you need to remember as an option for your army.
Razorback
The razorback sits in an odd place – its heavy weapons make it want to sit still, which goes against its role as a transport. If you do want to use it as a transport, consider the twin heavy flamer [index] option. This weapon suffers no penalty for moving and in fact will encourage you to move in order to get in range.
Otherwise, this is a fairly points-efficient way of getting heavy weapons on the board while ensuring they have enough ablative wounds to survive (7 pts /wound). Predators for comparison pay 8 pts/wound.

Primaris Repulsor
This should really be thought of as a land raider variant. It’s in the same price range, with similar weapon options. The key advantage is that it has fly, so can escape from combat and keep shooting. There are essentially two ways to build it – lots of shots vs lascannons.
If you’re playing primaris marines, this is their only transport, and you’re probably lacking long ranged anti-tank.
Standard Builds:
Dakka: Heavy onslaught, onslaught, twin heavy bolter, storm bolters, Icarus ironstorm, two fragstorm, additional heavy stubber. 295 pts
Las: Twin las, las talon, ironhail stubber, 2 storm bolters, Icarus rocket pod, auto launchers = 316 pts

Drop Pod
I’m utterly convinced that the price of drop pods is so high because of their footprint. You can use them (Rules as Written…) to block off large sections of the table. On the other hand, this also makes them very hard to use, especially if you want more than one.
There is no reason to take the deathwind launcher at this stage. 1d6 S5 shots does not beat 4 S4 shots at the same range + 2 at twice the range. Given the 9” margin for deep strike, the deathwind is almost impossible to use more than once.

Land Speeder Storm
Costs the same as a rhino or razorback while having much lower toughness and wounds. It makes up for this with speed and the ability for the scouts inside to fire while embarked. The Cerberus launcher is essentially just an expensive storm bolter as it will be getting a similar number of shots at a similar range.
As scouts can infiltrate to most of the board anyway, the value of the land speeder storm is questionable. Perhaps its best use is as a chariot for a scout sergeant with combi-melta. Allowing him to have a movement of 18” – very useful for getting into melta range.
 

Flyers
 
Spoiler:

Disclaimer, I've never used flyers. I don't think they belong in 40k at all.
For the Dark Talon and Nephilim, it is important to remember that Strafing Run only cancels out the penalty for moving.
Dark Talon
The rift cannon is pretty comparable to the twin lascannon of the Nephilim. The Dark Talon is significantly cheaper however. For vehicle/monster hunting, I believe this is the better jet.

Nephilim Jetfighter
The twin lascannon appears to be something of a trap option considering the comparable price of a predator with 4 lascannons. This is more of an anti-infantry vehicle in my opinion, so stick with the avenger mega bolter for a total of 16 ap-1 shots. The blackswords are more likely to be fired at mid-toughness targets like bikes and skimmers.

Stormraven Gunship
As the ‘flying land raider’ the obvious choice with the Stormraven is to fill it with terminators, race to the enemy DZ and make a turn 2 charge. But the terminators are capable of doing that without paying for a ~300 point transport. Yes, it adds durability to the unit, but so does spending those same 300 points on 6-7 more terminators. No, it has other better uses.

It can be armed to the teeth with 8 guns, many of which can be anti-infantry or swapped for anti-tank. It’s also quite durable due to supersonic, W14 and T7. It seems to be best used either as a pure gunship or as a transport for those units which cannot get to the other end of the board via inherent deep-strike. Examples being tactical squads, assault squads (without jump packs) and company veterans. The fact you can put a full squad and two characters inside it immediately shows a benefit in comparison to the humble drop pod.

It can have a dreadnought strapped to the back. Any type of dreadnought. Suddenly the shorter ranged default weapons on the Redemptor don’t seem so out of place. Give the Stormraven anti-infantry weapons, put a dreadnought on the back, and let the dreadnought deal with vehicles while the Stormraven clears the chaff.
 

Stratagems
Spoiler:

Relics of the Rock
2nd or 3rd relic. Can't decide between the Mace of Redemption and the Heavenfall blade? Take both! This can add some much needed hitting power to lieutenants.

Linebreaker Bombardment
You really have to be planning to use this when you build your army, which makes it obvious to your opponent, and very easy for them to shut down. If you really want to use it, start with 4 vindicators, not just the requisite 3. That way, you stand a good chance of being able to use it not just once, but twice in consecutive turns. Much like orbital bombardment, this is a great one for armies that also include snipers to finish off any characters you manage to inflict mortal wounds on. If your opponent has clustered tightly enough to make this really work, why not hit them with the orbital bombardment as well? Really punish your opponent for trying to make hyper-use of those auras.

Deathwing Assault
Situational use of this is good. But the cost is too high considering the armament of a regular 5 man Deathwing squad. Better used when you have 10 models in the squad. Ideal targets are going to be those more than 12" from where you dropped in, as you will not be wanting to blow your chance of charging after deep strike.

Stasis Shells
Only against characters? Assault weapon though? So can advance to do it.

Hellfire Shells
Sometimes you wish your heavy bolter was something that had more punch. This gives you that option. Cannot be used on land speeders.

Orbital Bombardment
This one is so expensive, that you have to really have a good reason to use it. Keep an eye on your opponent's units, especially in the first turn. If you see a tight cluster of many units (including characters), then it may be worth using as the 50% chance to deal mortal wounds to units is much better when you have the greatest number of rolls at that 4+. The radius is variable, so imagine what you can fit under a large blast template. If you can get 4 or more units under that template it's worth considering. Never rely on rolling a 6" for the radius.
 
This stratagem gains additional value if you have snipers to capitalise on any mortal wounds you dealt to characters. Pair it with sniper scouts or a vindicare in an imperial soup list.

Wisdom of the Ancients
This grants re-rolls of 1, which we will already have most of the time. May be useful as a backup plan however for those occasions when you really need to move your firebase to get better LOS for future turns.

Tactical Flexibility
This one is all about grabbing multiple objectives at the last minute. Do not use any other time.
Ok, that was harsh. Maybe use this first turn after dropping in 10 terminators and using Deathwing Assault. Now you’ve payed 4 CP total to have an extra turn of shooting with 2 terminator units. Do you feel good?
This stratagem has more use in other armies where morale of large units is an issue. With Grim Resolve, we don’t need to split into MSU to counter the effects of morale, so deploying large squads then splitting achieves nothing if you’re not doing it to grab two objectives instead of one.

Armour of Contempt
Given this is a 5+, you really only want to use it when your vehicle has been, or is going to be hit by more than 2 mortal wounds. It's a good countermeasure against the likes of Eldar Hemlocks or incoming Smite spam. Especially true of the latter as by this point you can already tell which is the closest unit to those psykers.

Only in Death does Duty End
Given characters are generally armed for combat rather than shooting, you'll be looking to use this when your character is unceremoniously taken down by the enemy beat-stick. Hit him back. He deserves it.
On the other hand, if you have a combi melta on your Huntsman warlord as detailed below… that's another good time to consider this stratagem.

Cluster Mines
… scout bikers… yeah. I suppose this is handy if you use them, but I don’t see myself buying the models.

Flakk Missiles
Best used when your target is 1 or 2 wounds away from being destroyed, but also useful when they're close to dropping a bracket on the damage table.

Auspex Scan
Another one of those rules which really only matters on large units with many shots, or units with very strong weapons. For us that means 10 man units of Deathwing, or any all-plasma unit, or devastators.

Never Forget, Never Forgive
Only useful against chaos marines.

The Lion and the Wolf
I believe this belongs in narrative play only. It’s too risky to use any other time. However, if you really wanted to, a (company/RW/DW) champion would be a great model to use this on, resulting in S8 thus wounding on 2s vs most characters.

Hunt the Fallen
It's easy to dismiss this as a Narrative based stratagem, but it does have tactical uses. If, after seeing your opponent's army list, you feel there is one particularly nasty character that you want to send all of your assault elements against, you can use this. It's a double edged sword because you're making that character even better. However, this may be particularly useful against non-combat armies like Tau.
Datalink Telemetry
This helps to make whirlwinds a tiny bit better, but is a gamble. You have to use it before determining how many shots you’re going to get, so it’s not really that much different to a reroll of the number of shots or a reroll to hit.

Weapons from the Dark Age [of Technology]
This is obviously going to be most useful on units that have the most plasma. Namely;
Black Knights- up to 10 models/20 shots
Hellblasters- up to 10 models/10 or 20 shots
Company Veterans with combi plasma- up to 5 models/5 or 10 shots
Devastators with plasma cannons- 4d3 (8) shots- at long range while standing still...
Ravenwing bikes with 2 plasma guns and a combi plasma/3 or 6 shots
Inceptors with plasma exterminators- up to 6 models/6d3 (12) shots
 
After the 20 shots provided by black knights and hellblasters, the others look a bit lackluster, but take heart. 20 shots is the potential for 60 damage, and short of titans, I'm not aware of anything with that many wounds. The potential 18 damage thrown out by a minimum black knight unit, or a unit of RW bikers is still sufficiently scary.
 
Sometimes it will be better to employ this stratagem instead of super charging. For example; when you have a -1 to hit
Sometimes it will be better to super charge. When you have rerolls and/or are low on CPs
Sometimes it will be better to use both together. When you really have to kill a T4, T7 or T8 unit. Emphasis on T7 and T8, because those are typically the only models with enough wounds to warrant dealing 3 damage per failed save.

Intractable
Useful on many occasions, and particularly useful for black knights. Expensive though, so not something you’ll plan to use. Like Counter-Offensive, this is a stratagem to remember about and use when your opponent locks you up against your will.

Empyric Channelling
We honestly don't have enough good psychic powers to warrant having 3 librarians in the first place, but at least with this you'd have a better chance of actually casting one of our powers.

Speed of the Raven
Highly useful for any Ravenwing, including land speeders. Yet to be determined if this counts as not having moved for assault/heavy. FAQ pending. ####

Secret Agenda
Must use whenever playing the Spoils of War mission. Less useful in other Maelstrom missions. I find if I don’t have the cards face up, I forget what my objectives are anyway, so this is dangerous to use.

Honour the Chapter
If this weren’t so expensive to use, it would be a very nice stratagem to pop on a regular basis, but at 3CP, it’s virtually consigned to the ‘never use’ bucket. It can only be used at the end of the fight phase, so you must first assess if you have enough models left in the unit to be worth using. Then you must assess if hitting again is going to achieve anything. Then you must also assess if wiping out the enemy unit is going to be of benefit or hindrance, which basically comes down to, ‘who goes next?’

Fortress of Shields
Useful for Deathwing Knights (or TH/SS) any time they’re in combat, but of most use when facing large numbers or high quality weapons.

Kill Shot
Considering this stratagem affects all three predators, it’s amazing that it’s so cheap. It effectively hands you alpha-strike on a plate, and first blood if you have first turn. It doesn’t even matter too much what weapons the predators have – even heavy bolters are scary when they have +1 to wound. Vs T7, that effectively bumps them up from S5 to S7.
The real cost is in having to have 3 fairly expensive units, none of which benefit from Grim Resolve.

Inner Circle
Let’s be honest here. This stratagem only applies to units which do not benefit from Inner Circle, so that part is irrelevant (unless fighting fallen becomes a thing). Gaining the Deathwing keyword is only relevant if you have Belial or a Deathwing Ancient in your army. The chance of either of these characters being near dreadnoughts or land raiders is laughable.
 

Warlord Traits
Spoiler:

Fury of the Lion
+1 Strength on the first round of combat. It's useful when it alters what you need to roll, so this is one where you need to think about what weapons you have and who you'll be fighting. Obviously, this is not a trait to use with shooty warlords.
S4 weapons vs T4: chainsword, power sword, lightning claw, force sword
S5 weapons vs T3, 5 or 6: power axe, force axe
S6 weapons vs T6 or 7: power maul, power lance, relic blade, Heavenfall Blade, force stave
S7 weapons vs T4, 7 or 8: Mace of Redemption.
Sx2 weapons vs T5, 8 or 9: power fist, thunder hammer
 
Note the freaky way stats are calculated in 8th ed means you modify your base strength first, then apply the weapon modifier. Thus S4 +1 with power fist or thunder hammer becomes S10.

Secondly and more importantly, this bonus applies to units within 6” as long as the warlord charged/whatever. Therefore, in addition to the above, Maces of Absolution become S10, thus better against T5, 8 and 9, just like thunder hammers/power fists. Brilliant vs bike heavy armies (white scars?), and vehicle heavy armies (Imperial Guard russes).

Best used in combo with:
Assault marines
Intercessors, Reivers
Ravenwing Bikes (not black knights who don’t really benefit much)
Deathwing (any flavour)

Courage of the First Legion
The 12" range of this aura is it's only saving grace. Only take it against armies that can utilise a lot of LD penalty effects such as Night Lords. Even then, it's best used in an army that has a lot of full sized units.

 Huntsman
This is a clever little option which may quickly become my favourite. At least, when using Company Masters and their 2+ BS.
Pistols, assault, rapid fire, grenades. Of these categories, there are obviously better and worse weapons to pick for utilising the sniper part of the rule. Specifically;
Pistols: Plasma and grav are the obvious choices. Neither is really 'good' for this trait however. Grav would be my choice, but then you're only doing 1 damage. I feel overcharging plasma is just too risky on my warlord. Yes, it's generally going to be a 1 in 36 chance of failing, but SLAIN is too much to risk unless you're on your last wound anyway or are otherwise doomed in your opponent's next turn.
Assault: Sniping with a combi flamer might make for a good laugh, and may have the added bonus of making your opponent's brain implode as they imagine how that even works. Combi-Melta on the other hand is WHERE IT'S AT. Sniping with a meltagun folks. Just think about that for a moment. Wounding most characters on 2s. AP-4.
Rapid Fire: Storm bolters aren't a terrible choice for this, but aren't all that exciting either. Combi grav makes for the best option if you want to fire the bolter component as well. Combi plasma will again tempt you to risk SLAIN on your Warlord and give your opponent a free VP, all while doing the same average damage as the combi-grav. Bolters by themselves aren't impressive here, even when they are master crafted or are bolt rifles. The winner in this category has to be Foe Smiter. Honorary mention goes to the Combi-Disintegrator on the Imperial Space Marine. An unlikely warlord, but tempting with this trait.
Grenades: If only we could have melta bombs on HQ these days. But then, if you're within 4", or even 6", you're probably able to target the character anyway.
 
The assault component is also interesting, and it really shines for Belial with his blade, Silence. I've yet to see how often piling in and consolidating towards a character will be useful, but it definitely has potential.
 
To take full advantage of this, I strongly suggest a dedicated Character killing HQ. Jump Pack or Terminator Armour (as you see fit) to get the Deep Strike. I prefer the jump pack, as you can drop behind LOS blocking cover and charge the following turn for a guaranteed charge after moving 12" and ignoring terrain. Protecting your warlord is important. Leaving him stranded after a failed 9 or more inch charge is on my 'never do' list. Take a Combi-melta, for that 35/36 * 5/6 * chance of failing invulnerable save. Against characters with no 2+ armour and no invulnerable, you've got an 81% chance of dealing D6 wounds. Throw in a relic blade or Relic such as the Heavenfall blade. If you don't kill them with the gun, jump over their screen on the charge and cut them down. Force weapons may not be a bad option here too.

Brilliant Strategist
If you have 6 CPs, and spend them one at a time, you expect to have 8 CPs to use during the game. 9 if you count the free reroll it provides. The key thing to remember with this trait is that it works best when you avoid those 2CP and 3CP stratagems. That means you should avoid this if you’re building a list around Deathwing Assault.

 Master of Manoeuvre
The advancing portion of this is only really useful for desperate objective grabs. The charging part is more important.
A deep striking character (jump pack or terminator) supporting multiple deep striking assault units has particular promise as it's similar to having free CPs to reroll your charges (although you have to reroll both dice in this case). If you see a 6 on one of the dice, go with spending a CP instead. However, even with this reroll of both dice, assault from deep strike is not something we should rely on too heavily. The chance of succeeding a 9" charge is 28%. The chance of succeeding a 9" charge with a reroll of both dice is 48%. That's still going to fail more often than it succeeds.
CHECK THE Probability on that statement
 
Also very useful for Ravenwing in general. Sammael or any other bike character (or even a Talonmaster) supporting black knights again allows for a much more reliable close combat force. Especially when combined with the other boosts Ravenwing can get from RW ancients etc. A key thing to note about this trait is that it affects the warlord himself, so don't forget to reroll his own charge distance.
 
Honourable mention must go to assault squads and company veterans here. They may not be Deathwing knights, but company veterans armed to the teeth do NOT want to fail a charge.

Stubborn Tenacity
If you don't want Huntsman or Master of Manoeuvre, consider this. It's not amazing, but it might save you a VP in a tight spot. It works best on a character who isn't going to want to move in the first place. The only candidate I can think of there is the Talon Master with his heavy weapons.
 

Relics
Spoiler:

Lion's Roar
I want to like this because it has been with us for three codices but I honestly think the regular combi-plasma is a better gun. How often are you going to be 12.1-18" away from your targets really? We have so many nice relics to choose from that this one holds little value.

 Shroud of Heroes
Does your opponent field a lot of snipers? No? Mine doesn't either. In shooting this is of very limited value because of the Character rule. It may be better on those weaker characters that are more likely to be targeted by snipers, such as ancients and apothecaries.
In close combat, it can be a real winner. Great choice for combat oriented characters like interrogator chaplains.

 Foe-Smiter
This one actually has a lot of uses. Good with Huntsman, and on characters who come with storm bolters as standard. 4 shots at AP-1 is a great start as many targets for Huntsman have invulnerable saves that reduce the value of higher AP anyway. More importantly, 4 shots at damage 2 can put a world of hurt on certain enemy units.

Mace of Redemption
This was my favourite in 7th ed, and it's still a great option. Combined with Fury of the Lion on your warlord, you can make your warlord into a serious anti-vehicle/monster character.

The Heavenfall Blade
Why pay for a relic blade when you can upgrade a power sword to the equivalent of a relic blade with an extra attack? You're saving points and gaining an attack. Win-win.
The choice between this and the Mace of Redemption is tricky. You need to weigh up an extra attack vs S7. If you're hunting infantry, the Blade is probably the better option.
Mathhammer required

Eye of the Unseen
The -1 LD is basically only going to be useful in combat. Add it to an Interrogator to become -2. On all other characters, I consider the leadership penalty to be largely irrelevant. Against hordes, 1 extra morale loss isn't that exciting. It may be of more value against elite multi-wound enemies however.
 
Forcing enemy characters to fight last is brilliant. Have Autarchs and Slaanesh Daemons got you down? Not anymore! Sick of your opponent's beat-stick character destroying you on the charge? Heroic Intervention yourself over there and laugh in his face. Best if paired with Huntsman to ensure you're near enemy characters as frequently as possible.
 

Psychic Powers
Spoiler:

There's a reason why I stopped using librarians after my first couple of test games with the index. Smite was the only good thing they had, which left me with a second power to cast each turn which was lackluster at best, or just plain out of range.
 
Remember folks; Warp Charge values convert directly into percentages as there are so few modifiers to look for.
And always, that 6% chance of Perils.
Smite
83% chance of casting. 8% of which is supercharged to D6 mortal wounds.
Mind Worm
72% chance of casting.
Shorter ranged targetable Smite that always rolls a 1 on D3. Not great so far. Selecting your target is good, but at 12", that target if often going to be the closest enemy anyway.
The more important part of this power is forcing an enemy unit to fight last. Even if they have charged, which they can't have done because it doesn't last into their turn. Errata please! So that irritating point aside what is this good for? Are you planning to launch a lot of charges? Do you already have a lot of units in ongoing combats? If so, then this might be useful. Maybe.
 
I really don't like this one. Best thought of as a secondary smite.

Aversion
72% chance of casting.
This power is actually useful. Reducing the enemy's firepower or melee hitting power is always beneficial. The downside is that even with 24" range, you need to be deep striking, on a bike or using a jump pack to cast this on the most pertinent targets as they'll be sitting in your enemy's parking lot most of the time.
 
Righteous Repugnance
58% chance of casting.
Key targets for this power will be your assault focused units. Which, frankly means Deathwing knights. It's obviously useful any time you have a unit stuck in combat, but at 58% chance of success, you really want to ensure you have assault elements in your army before picking this power.
 
Trephination
58% chance of casting. 8% chance of adding 2 to the next roll:
Roll 2d6 again… When most of the units in the game either have, or have access to LD 8, you're effectively at looking at a 41% chance of dealing mortal wounds.
In other words, this power has around a 24% chance of actually doing anything each time you attempt it. Compare that to the 83% chance of doing mortal wounds with Smite. Sure, it can theoretically deal 4 or more mortal wounds on your enemy, but the chances are miniscule under normal circumstances.
 
There are ways to improve this if you really want to invest, or if you've made the investment for other reasons and want to capitalize on it. Eye of the Unseen on an Interrogator Chaplain backed up by this power against low LD hordes? Now you've got a useful power. LD 6, -2, against your 2d6 roll. That's a lot better, but how often is that actually going to come up on the table?
 
Mind Wipe
58% chance of casting.
Did I not just get done saying that a 25-30% chance of achieving anything was bad? This one is even worse because the targets you will naturally want to pick will have LD equal to yours, if not higher!
The best tactical advice for this power is to look through your opponent's army and codex before picking it. Does any single model in his army with nasty weapons (anti-tank/strong close combat weapons) have LD lower than 9? If not, pick something else!
If by some miracle there is a nasty model in his army with low leadership, you still need to get within 18" and succeed on an approximate 1/3 chance. Yes, the effect lasts to the end of the battle, but if the target is that much of a problem, you're going to be killing it soon anyway.
Leave this power at home. Better yet, cross it out of your codex. It's a trap!
 
Ok, that was a bit negative. What would you use this on? Units with 20+ wounds that will take multiple turns to destroy. Use it every turn to continually reduce the stats of a Shadowsword or Necron Pylon. Each time you succeed, the next attempt gets easier.
In the absence of titanic/gargantuan units, focus on vehicles and monsters which have 10+ wounds and a degradation table. Each time you succeed, this will be like forcing the target an extra step down that table due to the reduced BS and WS.
 
In a pinch, this can also be used in combination with our LD modifying friends, the Eye of the Unseen and Interrogator Chaplain.
 
Engulfing Fear
72% chance of casting.
This is another one which relies on your target having a low leadership score. At least there's not a roll off this time, but that's because there's a hidden roll off. You have to cause enough slain models in the target unit(s) this turn to trigger potential morale failures. And even then, your opponent may roll low enough to save himself, or use a stratagem to bypass the check altogether.
 
 

Tactical Objectives
Spoiler:

We don’t get to choose these, but they’re still worth examining.
Just like previous editions, I’d be much happier with the standard 11-16 objectives from Maelstrom. These suck.
Not One Step Back
We’re not less likely to fail morale than other marines, so this is actually a bit tricky. Grim Resolve does let us use ATSKNF more freely as discussed above, but this is still a risky card to hold onto. The mission you’re playing needs to factor into your decision. Are you going to be able to draw other achievable cards by getting rid of this one after a single turn? It’s a gamble – if you’re stuck in place, unable to push forward to capture numbered objectives, it may be beneficial to hang onto this for longer but that D3 could always be a 1 anyway. Really you’ll be choosing between 1 or 3 turns and 3 turns is a very long time in 40k.
On the other hand, if you’re running a lot of Deathwing, this is brilliant because you’re immune to morale anyway.

No Forgiveness
This is like a trickier version of Overwhelming Firepower, without the benefit of extra points for exceeding the requirements.

Confess!
You have to have an Interrogator-Chaplain or Librarian to even use this card. If you drew it, pray you have a Librarian, because a crozius arcanum is a terrible weapon to rely on.
In fact, given house rules for discarding unachievable objectives, I’d say this is another nail in the librarians’ coffins.
Seize and Interrogate
Assassination, again, but only in combat? Good god that’s terrible. We are not a combat army. Pray you have Deathwing Knights backed up by a lot of characters.

Flawless Strategy
Our chances of drawing this before having already deployed all Deathwing are ridiculously low. It’ll get discarded one way or another. Hopefully through house rules for auto-discarding.

The Path of Redemption
Charge a higher power rating… What units will we charge with? Expensive ones. Again, terrible.
 


Final Thoughts
Spoiler:

Getting the most out of the Dark Angels codex requires careful thinking. You simply cannot rely on the obvious choices being the best. If you want to play a Deathwing army for example, the obvious choice for your Warlord is Belial, but in reality, you're better off with an Interrogator Chaplain as your warlord. You can still take Belial in the list, just don't make him the warlord. By combining Belial's rerolls, the chaplain as the warlord with Master of Manoeuvre and the Eye of the Unseen, backed up by a Librarian and maybe a Deathwing Ancient, you can have a deep striking force that hits extremely hard on the first turn, and then maintains most of its hitting power, instead of one that teleports in, fails half of its charges and gets torn to pieces.
 
This is just one example.
 
 

Combinations
Spoiler:

Here are some sample units for making good use of specific rule combinations:
Deep Alpha strike ~800 pts
Drop pod, containing:
Azrael & 5 devastators w/ 4 multi meltas, lieutenant and 3 veterans.
Accompanied by 10 tartaros terminators armed to the teeth.
Use Deathwing Assault combined with Azrael and Lieutenant auras to clear a sizeable hole in any nearby troops while the multi-meltas take care of a monster or tank. The veterans are just there to fill seats and can head off on their own direction to grab an objective, keep them cheap with storm bolters and chainswords.
~800 points to destroy your opponent's backfield. And the terminators are then free to move with Azrael to pincer any units that moved into the midfield. With luck there will even be an objective that one of the doors of the pod can capture.

Sniper HQ
Primaris Master + Primaris Lieutenant +scouts. The HQs take Stalker bolt rifles and the scouts take sniper rifles.
1x 35/36 + 1x 32/36 S4 D2 AP-2 shots. Or in other words, two nearly guaranteed hits.
This is a brilliant idea. Right up until you remember only the warlord has Huntsman.
Nevermind.
It’s still useful, but the lieutenant doesn’t get anywhere near the benefit. Probably better have a regular lieutenant tooled for combat to rescue your scouts if they get charged. He won’t be able to shoot the same targets.


I feek that you did Asmodai an injustice by not calling out Deathwing Knights. Reroll misses and +1 atk (which stacks with DW ancient) is a great combo.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/27 01:12:10


Post by: ph34r


For a venerable dreadnought you can also go twin las + twin auto if you don't want the somewhat weak missile launcher.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/27 01:51:19


Post by: Breng77


 anticitizen013 wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
Except against eldar potentially. The biggest thing I have found is 6 inceptors is often overkill so 2x3 tend to work better


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though 1 big unit can combat squad so if there is a single big target to remove that can be the way to go.

The other thing is you can split all your fire too, so you'd get maximum usage out of a unit of 6, popping the strat, and having 3 fire at one enemy and 3 at another (or however you want to split it).


Assuming you have range and LOS to multiple good targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The other advantage to a split drop is avoiding stratagems that allow shooting deepstriing units.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/27 02:06:18


Post by: bobafett012


Timur wrote:
Is it actually possible to stack several mind wipes on one model like a shadowsord? Sounds kinda OP to be true, like stacking multiple darkshrouds


As was stated above, the psychic powers, specially mind wipe, is anything but OP. It's trash to be more exact. Things that require either lots of setup (stacking -LD, etc), or require multiple %50 rolls are not good, they are not consistent, can not be relied upon and are just a bad idea to take. If your goal is too shut down a shadowsword, you should be taking aversion, and investing in enough Lascannons to take him down a level or 2 so he's hitting on 6's, which could be done in 1 turn fairly easily.

While I don't agree with all of his assessments, the psychic powers are bad, like really really bad, except for 2. Aversion is extremely good, and righteous repugnance is really good. The rest are terrible, period.



Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/27 03:00:23


Post by: ZergSmasher


I don't think units with Fly can fall back and then charge again in the same turn as the review seemed to say. White Scars can due to their Chapter Tactics, but our boys in green cannot unfortunately.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/27 04:32:33


Post by: Grimgold


I'm running blades of vengeance (the first DA Primaris successor chapter) for an escalation league, what do you guys think would be a good allies for a primaris only DA chapter? Thinking about bringing in an imperial knight, Or maybe some DA in the form of a ravenwing or deathwing detachment (got to keep an eye on them to make sure they are not on team luther).


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/27 05:38:05


Post by: axisofentropy


Dark Angels psychic powers are fine, but nobody fields Librarians of any chapter because they're just not reliable compared to other space marine abilities.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/27 09:40:57


Post by: Chaos_Lord_Tom


I think I see many rules misundertandings in this analysos such as charging after fallback or firing heavy flamers after advancing.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/27 14:34:31


Post by: Aeri


I began a unit rating for myself, but might aswell post it to open the discussion.
I didn't rate every unit, because I just dont have all of them and therefore dont care.

HQ:

Azrael: A+ [No explanation needed I guess. Great to keep Devs/Hellblasters alive]
Asmodai: A- [Great DWK Force Multiplier, but no Teleport Strike. Relies on riding a Landraider with a unit of DWK. Also works great with Company Veterans geared for melee.]
Sammael: A+ [Swift and deadly. Great Support for Black Knights and other Ravenwing units aswell. Can assault flyers with his S8 sword making him super versatile.]
Belial: B [Great Deathwing Multiplier and Combat beast, but suffers from the same problem every melee buff character has - he might not make the charge to support his unit.]
Interrogator Chaplain: C+ [Very expensive compared to a chaplain. The extra -1 to morale is rarely worth it. Pick a chaplain or Asmodai instead.]
Chaplain: B- [Good Melee Buff. When used in Terminator Armour to deep strike with terminators you have a high chance of him not making the charge and therefore not beeing able to buff the charging units. Works great in a transport though.]
Librarians C [Don't like our Powers, so librarians mostly don't see the board anymore.]

Troops:

Scouts: A- [Cheap and very versatile troop choice. Great to take objectives early on and harass/charge shooty units.]
Tactical Squad: B [The same solid troop choice as ever. Sturdy, can take many different weapons and are very flexible. Kind of expensive though, since our best units are super pricey. Need a Razorback or Rhino for best effectiveness or are doomed as a backline place and forget unit.]

Elite:

Deathwing Knights: A- [Pure deadlyness. Even better with Asmodai and a Deahwing Ancient. May get stuck if your Landraider blows early though. Darkshroud helps a lot to prevent this.]
Deathwing Terminators: C [Price and outshined in melee by DWK. For shooting there are better choices. Great to harass a backfield unit though and soak up enemy fire. If left alone they can hurt quite badly, so the enemy HAS to deal with them.]
Dreadnoughts: B+ [As Rifledreads a very solid choice, specially with our new reroll 1s. No degrading aswell. I prefer 2 with Twin Las/Twin Autocannon in my force.]
Venerable Dreadnoughts: A [Very potent backfield heavy weapon plattforms. BS2+ and reroll 1s almost guarantees hits. And they come with a 6+ FNP for extra toughness. worth the 20P upgrade!]

Fast Attack:
Black Knights: A [Some of our best units. Deadly. Fast. Reliable. With Weapons of the Dark Age also super deadly. 6 can kill a Monolith in 1 shooting phase. They are also small enough to evade enemy fire if placed carefully. In melee they are "ok". Not as great as they used to be, but can still pack a punch with sammy and/or an ancient. Very expensive though.]
Ravenwing Bikes C- [Very expensive for what they bring to the field. Mediocre in melee, mediocre in shooting. I see little reason to field these guys.]
Darkshroud A [Great defensive tool. Let it protect the backfield, your transports or your bikes. It makes your units a lot tougher for very little points. Don't bother with weapon upgrades, it's not there to shoot stuff.]
Land Speeders B- [Very expensive, but versatile. Best used stationary because of their heavy weapons, and this is exactly where they are outshined by Dreadnoughts.]

Heavy Support:
Devastators B+ [Superb Heavy hitters for your backline. With rerolls to 1s and our Plasma Stratagem they can really hurt stuff for reasonable points. Add Azrael or other buff units to make them even better. Might die quite easily though, since the unit is just 5 Marines.]
Predators A- [Tough and can hurt a lot. Best used with Predator Auto Cannon and Las Cannon sponsons. Other than Ven Dreads they lose BS when taking damage, making them less effective the longer the battle lasts.]
Landspeeder Vengeance D [Nopes. Just don't]
Land Raider Redeemer A- [Love this thing with DWK in it. The flamers are also great to kill flyers and other hard to hit stuff. Creates a nice threat bubble, but is kinda slow. Also can leave combat due to our new stratagem, eliminating one of the greatest weaknesses of landraiders. But who would want to charge this thing anyways?]
Land Raider Crusader B+ [Greater transport capacity, but less dmg output. IMHO the Darkshroud is better to take the anti horde role.]

Flyers:
Nephilim Jetfighter: B+ [Great damage output and survivability. Can get kinda expensive though. Still a solid choice.]
Dark Talon: A- [One of our best anti horde tools. Cheap, tough and reliable. BF2+ hurricane bolters can get stuff done. The rift canon is a great addition to take on heavier targets. The stasis bomb is a 1 time gimmick - a good one.]



Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/27 16:12:17


Post by: Breng77


Interesting rating on RW bikes. Point for point they are better than BK unless you want to charge into combat. The big BK advantage is that they can be a big squad for stratagem use, and can advance and fire without stratagem. In small squads they are killer than knights point for point, 3 man squad is 122 points vs 138 points and comes with an extra 12 bolter shots on top of your plasma. 3 Bikes kill 4.2 MEQ on the charge, 3 BK kill 3.7. Against GEQ bikes kill 7.56 to 5.25. Against T7 vehicles bikes do 5.8 to 5.2.


So unless BK are in a large squad benefiting from weapons of the dark age and a ton of buff characters they seem worse to me. If you start adding BK bikes add models almost 2-1. 5 bikes with 3 plasma and all chainsword is cheaper than 4 BK. 7 bikers = 5 BK. At that point the bikers put out 40 S4 attacks (bolters + close combat and 6 plasma shots, the BK put out 11 S5 attacks and 10 Plasma. So obviously better with plasma and WOTDA. The get the edge on T7 at that point (7.4 to 8.6, 9.6 to 12.3 with strat) but still lag behind against meq and geq.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/27 17:15:24


Post by: Formosa


Just going off my experience so far

Belial: A, I play deathwing and this guy is a must, and for the first time I'm taking him with the sword, his huntsman ability has actually proved very useful in several games (picked off a magos in the middle of a unit), also went toe to toe with the swarm lord, the -1 to hit us very good.

Land speeder vengeance: B, I take two in my ravenwing (I'm a purist) and with the darkshroud they are able to move up to a good spot and lay down some good firepower, I have my hunsmaster with them at all times and they act as a mobile fire base, solid to me.

Doredo dreadnought: A++ by far the best dread choice for dakka we have right now, by far the best of any chapter too, grim resolve, invuerable and plasma battery makes this bloody horrific, 5 shots at str 8 doing 3/4 damage per wound, the other weapons are good but it's the plans where this shines for us, and best of all it doesn't need a character to to babysit it, hits most flyers on a 2+ as well with helical targeting array, amazing.

Chaplain dreadnought: I tried this bad boy out with 5 knights in a stormraven, it makes them str10 and is a character, really really recommend the chaplain dread to any dark angels player if for no other reason it is just thematically awesome for us.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/27 17:24:54


Post by: djones520


 Formosa wrote:
Just going off my experience so far

Belial: A, I play deathwing and this guy is a must, and for the first time I'm taking him with the sword, his huntsman ability has actually proved very useful in several games (picked off a magos in the middle of a unit), also went toe to toe with the swarm lord, the -1 to hit us very good.

Land speeder vengeance: B, I take two in my ravenwing (I'm a purist) and with the darkshroud they are able to move up to a good spot and lay down some good firepower, I have my hunsmaster with them at all times and they act as a mobile fire base, solid to me.

Doredo dreadnought: A++ by far the best dread choice for dakka we have right now, by far the best of any chapter too, grim resolve, invuerable and plasma battery makes this bloody horrific, 5 shots at str 8 doing 3/4 damage per wound, the other weapons are good but it's the plans where this shines for us, and best of all it doesn't need a character to to babysit it, hits most flyers on a 2+ as well with helical targeting array, amazing.

Chaplain dreadnought: I tried this bad boy out with 5 knights in a stormraven, it makes them str10 and is a character, really really recommend the chaplain dread to any dark angels player if for no other reason it is just thematically awesome for us.


The only thing puts me off on the Deredeo is the 24" range. Has that been a problem for you at all?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/27 17:31:45


Post by: Formosa


 djones520 wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
Just going off my experience so far

Belial: A, I play deathwing and this guy is a must, and for the first time I'm taking him with the sword, his huntsman ability has actually proved very useful in several games (picked off a magos in the middle of a unit), also went toe to toe with the swarm lord, the -1 to hit us very good.

Land speeder vengeance: B, I take two in my ravenwing (I'm a purist) and with the darkshroud they are able to move up to a good spot and lay down some good firepower, I have my hunsmaster with them at all times and they act as a mobile fire base, solid to me.

Doredo dreadnought: A++ by far the best dread choice for dakka we have right now, by far the best of any chapter too, grim resolve, invuerable and plasma battery makes this bloody horrific, 5 shots at str 8 doing 3/4 damage per wound, the other weapons are good but it's the plans where this shines for us, and best of all it doesn't need a character to to babysit it, hits most flyers on a 2+ as well with helical targeting array, amazing.

Chaplain dreadnought: I tried this bad boy out with 5 knights in a stormraven, it makes them str10 and is a character, really really recommend the chaplain dread to any dark angels player if for no other reason it is just thematically awesome for us.


The only thing puts me off on the Deredeo is the 24" range. Has that been a problem for you at all?


Not in the slightest, every game I've played with it so far has had the enemy either advancing on me pretty fast, deep striking or deploying quite far forward, so if I deploy this the usual 12" flawed too, first turn I can move and shoot with it, or they move forward and I stay still and shoot, if they have deep strike then I bubble wrap the 2 I have and black the deep strikers, it also deletes vehicles very quickly.

Add to that the 6 heavy bolter shots, 2d3 ailos shots that don't need line of site and 60" range, this baby can reach out and touch people anywhere on a 2+ re rollable, it's solid, plop a huntsmaster next to it for even more death.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/27 18:59:29


Post by: Aaranis


I see you're all quick to dismiss our Librarians. I plan on using at least one in every game with DA, because the powers Mind Worm, Aversion and Righteous Repugnance are very good, especially the last one. It may be difficult to cast with a WC7, but giving rerolls to Hit AND to Wound on a unit of Deathwing Knights is really appealing, it frees you of using Belial or a Chaplain for the rerolls to Hit, and nothing else allows you to reroll all failed to Wound rolls. Anyone tried this ?

And why a so negative vision of the Land Speeder Vengeance ?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/27 19:34:24


Post by: Aeri


The vengeance rolls a single one and is out of the game for good.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/27 20:46:50


Post by: MilkmanAl


Has anybody considered Company Champion spam? I can see adding a few of them in a transport to fill space or dumping them out of a drop pod behind another dropped unit or some bikes that are charging up the field. They're stupid cheap for how effective they are in combat, so as long as you can get them there safely, you're in good shape.

To flesh that out a little bit, I think I may run a drop pod with like 7-8 champions in it, have sammael as my warlord for charge rerolls and just hope for the best when the champions come in. I'm thinking a unit of bikes for chaff clearing and firepower redirection. I'm pretty likely to get at least 2-3 champions into combat turn 1 and really go to town on that flank. That all runs in the 800-pt range, so you have a lot of room for other nonsense in the list.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/27 20:56:14


Post by: Aaranis


Aeri wrote:
The vengeance rolls a single one and is out of the game for good.

Sammael can help, or just not shooting in Overcharge ?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/27 23:57:59


Post by: Formosa


Aeri wrote:
The vengeance rolls a single one and is out of the game for good.


Just adding a caveat to this as its not true, at all.

IF you overcharge it then it takes 3 mortal wounds and the plasma battery cannot fire for the rest of the game, it still has a heavy bolter and can run distraction duty like charging to take hits from more important units, it just loses its main firepower, that being said, put Sammy or a Master next to it and you mitigate this risk greatly.

Basically treat it like any other plasma weapon, dont always overcharge and risk "killing" yourself.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/28 00:29:53


Post by: bobafett012


 Aaranis wrote:
I see you're all quick to dismiss our Librarians. I plan on using at least one in every game with DA, because the powers Mind Worm, Aversion and Righteous Repugnance are very good, especially the last one. It may be difficult to cast with a WC7, but giving rerolls to Hit AND to Wound on a unit of Deathwing Knights is really appealing, it frees you of using Belial or a Chaplain for the rerolls to Hit, and nothing else allows you to reroll all failed to Wound rolls. Anyone tried this ?

And why a so negative vision of the Land Speeder Vengeance ?


Agreed. Libbys are just fine. While I disagree about mind worm, the other 2 are very good powers. I use righteous repugnance on my knights and they literally destroy just about anything and aversion is amazing at neutering the big bads of your opponents army. Range isn't an issue for me because I DS my libby in term armor in so he's plenty close enough to get the 2 best powers off.

As for the comment that librarians aren't fielded in any chapter is %100 wrong. Blood angels would certainly like a word....


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/28 00:35:45


Post by: anticitizen013


The other downside of the Vengeance is that it has a large variance of shots. There are turns where you will roll a 1, or turns where you will roll a 6. Either way, I would much rather take something else for the points. I prefer reliability (or at least better odds). In my opinion, it should be 2D3 shots instead of 1D6.

Sidebar: Can the Chaplain Dreadnought take a Relic? I can't really see why not unless I'm missing something but I feel like giving it the Shroud of Heroes would be pretty awesome.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/28 06:40:00


Post by: IandI


I haven't seen too many people extolling the virtues of The Talonmaster on here, and that genuinely surprises me. Either everyone has come to the same conclusion (he's ridiculously good) and there's no more reason to talk about it, or you guys haven't tried him out yet. He NEEDS the Heavenfall Blade, but once he has it the Talonmaster is Death incarnate.

In 3 games so far, he is unequivocally the MVP and he has been shredding enemy units. As someone who has played a dozen games with Saint Celestine (who everyone agrees is one of the very best characters in 8th Ed.) I'm not far off from calling the Talonmaster better. He's not nearly as tough, but he will kill way more bad guys in a game than she will.

I can't think of a better all around character, he's fast, he buffs, he shoots like 2 Razorbacks, he's nasty in melee, and he's all but immune to enemy shooting. Keep him properly screened and he will tear up a lot of battlefields. The reviewer really should put A+++ for him.

Special mention must also go out to Azrael. Most of the Space Marine players I've run up against spend 3 CP's to upgrade to a Chapter Master. With his bonus point, Azrael puts me up 4 CP's over the other guy for like an extra 80 points.

A lot of people on YouTube weren't very impressed with Codex: Dark Angels, so far I have been. Grim Resolve has been decent, Intractable, Speed of the Raven, and Weapons of the Dark Age are excellent, the relics are good, Interromancy is respectable, and all the characters are solid.

The only "Dark Angel special" units I've run so far are Black Knights and the Company Champion. Knights were pretty good, they tend to attract a lot of bullets. The Champion is a steal, he's been a loyal bodyguard to Azrael and has saved his life twice from assaults and heavy weapons fire.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/28 07:01:02


Post by: Zustiur


Thanks for the feedback so far on my review. Looks like I've made a few errors that I will fix at the next opportunity. Keep them coming please.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/28 10:16:33


Post by: Aeri


I think the Talonmaster is ok, not A+++.
BF3+ on a plattform with heavy weapons that is supposed to move at all times makes him miss half his shots because of the -1 to hit for heavy weapons. In melee hes great, yes. But that is every other Lieutenant aswell.
His anti cover bubble sounds fun, but for weapons that have DS-3 already and so many invulsaves I don't think it's such a huge boost.
A good and well designed unit for sure. But not a "must take" unit. (haven't tried him yet though)
My conclusion: solid B+/A-

#################

I'm still thinking about using Company Veterans in my LR instead of DWK, because they are just so much more versatile.

(LR Redeemer, Asmodai, Lieutenant with Heavenfall Blade and 2 5-Man Vet Squads)

Please take a look at this loadout and discuss:

5 Man Vet Squad: 171 Points (167 if you switch the Hammer for a Fist)
- 4 Vets (Plasmagun, Powersword/Powermaul)
- 1 Sergeant (Plasmapistol, Thunderhammer)

When they get out of their LandRaider they can still move and shoot as normal. Let's assume you make it into rapid fire range, which is not too uncommon.
You get 9 Plasma shots (per Vet Squad, so 18 total), which is enough to make use of WOTDA. Reroll 1s to wound, unfortunately no to hit rerolls (unless you get one of our mobile buff units close enough aswell).
In melee you get 12 S4 DS-3 /S6 DS-1 Attacks (depends on whether you take mauls or swords, I think I would take a mixture of both I think.) and 4 S8 DS-3 D3 Attacks - per vet squad. Reroll all hits and wound rolls of 1. In addition you get 4 Attacks from the Lieutenant with his Heavenfall Blade at S6 DS-3 DD3 and Asmodais 4 Attacks.

You can either charge both vet squads into 1 enemy unit or split them up. (make sure to keep them both in bubble range).

Points wise: 342 for the Vets, 348 for the LR, 130 for Asmodai and 67 for the Lieutenant = 887 Points. Quite a lot.
If you swapped vets for DWK you would end up with 795 Points (although I think they don't need the Lieutenant as they deal enough damage in melee even without him.)

Conclusion:
Pros:
For just 92 Points more you get a unit that is very potent in melee, but not quite as potent as DWK. They compensate this with 18 Plasmashots of which half can be buffed by WOTDA.

Cons:
- You don't get any rerolls to hits and overcharging your plasma may end up crippling your unit.
- Your LR might get blown up early, leaving your units behind (Although they are armed with plasma guns so they can at least shoot stuff ;-) ).


What do you think?
Would it be better to put vets in Rhinos or Razorbacks and rush them up the field?






Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/28 10:38:54


Post by: Breng77


The talonmaster seems good, but Sableclaw seems better. More expensive but he hits on a 3+ while moving re-rolling 1s with his heavy weapons, has the same number of attacks in CC with a better weapon, has an additional wound and a 4++ save. All for 30ish extra points. Of course you can take both and they help each other out to become quite the pair.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/28 11:06:14


Post by: Zustiur


Ok, I had some unexpected free time this afternoon so here's my initial response. I'll post an updated review soon.

Breng77 wrote:
Just a note- when you mention weapons of the dark age you have 6 inceptors as 6d3 shots. Remember each inceptors has 2 plasma exterminators so 6 of the would have 12d3(24) shots. point for point the are the most efficient target for WOTDA.

10 Black knights = 460 points for 20 shots = 23 points per shot
10 Helblasters = 330 points for 20 shots (if you get in range) 16.5 points per shot (350 points for assault version of you want more range on double shots 17.5 points per shot)
6 plasma inceptors = 354 points for an average of 24 shots or 14.75 points per shot.

One note is helblasters have better AP and durability

I'll make sure I correct that. Thanks!

Swillsswil wrote:I feel that you did Asmodai an injustice by not calling out Deathwing Knights. Reroll misses and +1 atk (which stacks with DW ancient) is a great combo.

I dismissed it in my head due to my habit of deep striking. Thanks for the input. I'll add my thoughts in.

ph34r wrote:For a venerable dreadnought you can also go twin las + twin auto if you don't want the somewhat weak missile launcher.

I totally missed that, and it sounds like a great combination. I'll add it in.

bobafett012 wrote:While I don't agree with all of his assessments, the psychic powers are bad, like really really bad, except for 2. Aversion is extremely good, and righteous repugnance is really good. The rest are terrible, period.

I'd love to hear more about what you don't agree with. I agree righteous repugnance is a good power, just not for us. Put that with Blood Angels, or any assault army (tyranids/khorne etc) and it would be amazing. Even so, it's probably still the second best power we have behind Aversion.

ZergSmasher wrote:I don't think units with Fly can fall back and then charge again in the same turn as the review seemed to say. White Scars can due to their Chapter Tactics, but our boys in green cannot unfortunately.

and...
Chaos_Lord_Tom wrote:I think I see many rules misundertandings in this analysos such as charging after fallback or firing heavy flamers after advancing.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

OOPS. Thank you both. This is exactly the sort of thing I needed to have pointed out. It's so easy to think you know the rules that you gloss over something.

Aaranis wrote:I see you're all quick to dismiss our Librarians. I plan on using at least one in every game with DA, because the powers Mind Worm, Aversion and Righteous Repugnance are very good, especially the last one. It may be difficult to cast with a WC7, but giving rerolls to Hit AND to Wound on a unit of Deathwing Knights is really appealing, it frees you of using Belial or a Chaplain for the rerolls to Hit, and nothing else allows you to reroll all failed to Wound rolls. Anyone tried this ?

WC7 is a 58% chance of casting, before you consider that your enemy might deny it, or make it harder somehow (Shadow in the Warp). For a few less points you can have a chaplain guaranteeing the re-rolls to hit, albeit without the rerolls to wound. I like reliable options.

Aeri wrote:I'm still thinking about using Company Veterans in my LR instead of DWK, because they are just so much more versatile.

(LR Redeemer, Asmodai, Lieutenant with Heavenfall Blade and 2 5-Man Vet Squads)

Exactly how I see land raiders being used. Much better than putting terminators of any variety in, and thus 'wasting' the points you spent on their deep strike ability.



Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/28 12:11:34


Post by: vonjankmon


I think SableClaw and the Talon Master make a wicked combo but even alone the Talon Master is excellent, but Breng77's comment is valid if you have the extra 30 points.

As for the best use of our plasma stratagem I think people are forgetting to account for reroll aura's when considering it. Interceptors seem like a great point to plasma ratio but you have to consider the fact that if you want them to reroll 1's to hit and wound you're spending a lot of points on a characters with jump packs to make that happen. Hell Blasters and Devastator squads with plasma will already be around your firebase to make use of those rerolls with the rest of your army. Same with Black Knights potentially if you take Sammael and a Talon Master, if not same issue as the Inceptors. And the Devastator squad has more ablative wounds before losing effectiveness.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/28 13:02:19


Post by: Widied


I think the Talon Master (with Heavenfall Blade) is the hidden gem of the book. You will get a bunch of people who say he isn't THAT good but they are insane haha.... okay that was harsh. Just small 'c' crazy.

I can't believe people are complaining about his 3 bs... you do see how popular 'assback' razorbacks are? Picture that, but better... in every way! Great in combat, flies, has great buffs, can't be targeted by enemy fire. It's good. It's definitely A++ good. You probably should accompany him with Sammael (either incarnation) because he is equally good (possibly better) and will offset that -1 to hit.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/28 13:24:18


Post by: IandI


I agree Samael is better for a mere 30 extra points, but I cannot bring myself to run Azrael and Sammy together or Sammy and the Talonmaster together without feeling really dirty.

My gaming group is casual competitive so I always at least try to not go super over the top. I generally avoid using more than one special character.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/28 13:35:58


Post by: djones520


So... where are people getting the models for Sableclaw and Talonmasters?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/28 14:08:51


Post by: Breng77


 djones520 wrote:
So... where are people getting the models for Sableclaw and Talonmasters?


I have sable claw from the old RW battleforce. I think these days you need to by the RW upgrade pack from GW, which is currently out of stock. They are basically a speeder with extra bits. I had extra bits from back in the day (I bought 2 or 3 of that old battleforce and never needed to make more than 1 sableclaw) so built my talon master recently.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/28 14:11:21


Post by: friareriner


 djones520 wrote:
So... where are people getting the models for Sableclaw and Talonmasters?

Speeder + Ravenwing Upgrade sprue


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/28 14:15:13


Post by: Breng77


 vonjankmon wrote:
I think SableClaw and the Talon Master make a wicked combo but even alone the Talon Master is excellent, but Breng77's comment is valid if you have the extra 30 points.

As for the best use of our plasma stratagem I think people are forgetting to account for reroll aura's when considering it. Interceptors seem like a great point to plasma ratio but you have to consider the fact that if you want them to reroll 1's to hit and wound you're spending a lot of points on a characters with jump packs to make that happen. Hell Blasters and Devastator squads with plasma will already be around your firebase to make use of those rerolls with the rest of your army. Same with Black Knights potentially if you take Sammael and a Talon Master, if not same issue as the Inceptors. And the Devastator squad has more ablative wounds before losing effectiveness.


The devs lose efficiency if you put in too many ablative wounds. As do helblasters if they are standing with your firebase. Deepstriking near Sammy (16" move + 6" aura + 19" base+ range at minimum and no different from using black knights except easier to get in range) or taking a master with JP is no big deal. It does depend on your army though, but I usually have 3+ HQ choices and so making 1 a JP master is easy to do.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/28 14:58:54


Post by: djones520


Awesome, thanks for that info guys. I'll have to keep an eye out for when they get stock back in.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/28 16:37:47


Post by: Breng77


You can also just order bits for the speeder assault cannon, and heavy bolter. You won't have all the extra DA bits but it will work.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/28 17:05:39


Post by: Widied


 djones520 wrote:
So... where are people getting the models for Sableclaw and Talonmasters?


Mine is a multi part conversion between a landspeeder, champion from the black knight box, and the ravenwing upgrade sprue I believe has all the weapon parts.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/28 17:19:23


Post by: Formosa


 anticitizen013 wrote:
The other downside of the Vengeance is that it has a large variance of shots. There are turns where you will roll a 1, or turns where you will roll a 6. Either way, I would much rather take something else for the points. I prefer reliability (or at least better odds). In my opinion, it should be 2D3 shots instead of 1D6.

Sidebar: Can the Chaplain Dreadnought take a Relic? I can't really see why not unless I'm missing something but I feel like giving it the Shroud of Heroes would be pretty awesome.


According to the codex any character can take a dark angels relic, so yep, you can give the chaplain dreadnought a relic, it's very limited as it can't replace its weapons but eye of night and shroud of heroes works.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/30 19:07:33


Post by: MilkmanAl


I have a couple lists I'm tinkering with. The first one is what I'm trying to mold into a relatively competitive army:

Battalion and Supreme Command detachments
Azrael - 180
Talonmaster - heavenfall blade - 188
3x5 Scouts - 165
10 Hellblasters - 330
8 RWB - 216
Sammael on Sableclaw - 216
10 DWK - watcher - 500
Terminator Librarian - force axe, stormbolter- 132
Lieutenant - power sword - 64
1996

Basically, Azrael and the Lieutenant camp out with the Hellblasters and nukes something(s) big every turn with WotDA. Bikes roll up to impede enemy movement and act as a screen for Sammael and the Talonmaster. DWK and the librarian drop in and probably spread out to take up as much space as possible, maybe multi-charging, if good targets exist. Abuse Hunt the Fallen as able. The libby will have Aversion and RR to make the DWK truly amazing in combat and maybe protect them from return fire and melee. Scouts are speed bumps and drop screens. Thoughts?

The second list is similar but focuses more on flanking in spectacular fashion than containment. I'm also going for the Company Champion spam I mentioned earlier to see how that works. The champions pod in behind the bikes for protewction. With so many forward units, I'm thinking Sammael may be a better warlord choice than Azrael for all the various movement rerolls, but it's pretty hard to give up the extra ~3-4 CP Azrael offers. Rerolling charges, I should get 4-5ish champions into combat when they drop. That's not half bad!

Battalion and Vanguard detachments
Azrael - 180
Talonmaster - heavenfall blade - 188
4x5 Scouts - 220
10 Hellblasters - 330
8 RWB - combi-plasma, 2 plasma guns - 257
Sammael on Sableclaw - 216
7 Company Champions - 280
Drop Pod - stormbolter - 85
5 DWK - 250
1973


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/30 21:22:09


Post by: Maelstrom808


I think it's no bueno on that second list, more than half your list is going into reserves.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/30 21:29:50


Post by: MilkmanAl


Yeah, that's an issue I'm not certain of. Since all the champions are in a transport, does it count as 10 units or just 1? Worst case scenario, it looks like I have 11 to drop in and 8 on the board, so I'd need to dump a couple champions or something.

Edit: Okay, after some rules digging and a YMDC thread, I fixed the second list above. Details, details! After ading a second plasma gun to the bikes, I'll have 14pts to blow somewhere.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/31 11:50:00


Post by: Maelstrom808


Yeah the reserve limit has been an issue for me when working with podding champs in. You could do what I've been doing, and lose two more champs. The 80 points you save there plus your 14 you have left over will buy you a unit of 5 company vets with chainswords and storm bolters to stick in the pod with the champs. You lose 6 really nice melee attacks, but gain 16 basic attacks and more importantly, you gain 20 storm bolter shots. This can be highly useful in clearing screens so your champs can get to the good stuff. Maybe even use the remaining 4 points to throw a power sword on the Sgt. In any case, you can also use the bodyguard rule from the vets to help keep your champs alive and blenderizing bad guys.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/31 13:25:10


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Got a few games in with the new Codex. I'm running a Battalion and a Vanguard - very similar to my Index list that was decent in the summer but with some tweaks: Battalion: Azrael, Lieutenant, Champion, Chapter Ancient, three Scout Squads, one Tactical Squad, one Devastator Squad and a full ten-man Hellblaster Sqd with Incinerators. Vanguard: Belial, Librarian in Terminator Armour, Deathwing Knights, Deathwing Terminator Squad, and Deathwing Champion.

The Hellblasters have been amazing. Working with Azrael, the Lieutenant and Weapons from the Dark Age (WoDA) they deleted squads and vehicles with ease. They need support, of course, and I treat them as the main effort/decisive element of the detachment. I think that if you are running Hellblasters you need to commit to them. WoDA is what led me to go with a ten man squad, and Grim Resolve gives some relief from morale losses. Regarding Supercharge, while the Ancient gives a little piece of mind, I am looking for the points for a Apothecary.

I am quite happy with Grim Resolve. Sniper Scouts and Devastators like it since they don't need a character around to micromanage all the time. It makes bigger squads an option now as well.

The Deathwing detachment was its usual quirky self - a fantastic if expensive distraction force. The Deathwing Terminators teleporting with Belial and using the Deathwing Assault strategem certainly cleared out bubble wrap, but this also made follow up charges kinda hard...When the Deathwing Knights made it into combat they were, of course, wrecking balls. Inspired by the Deathwing Ancient and fueled by Righteous Repugnance they utterly demolished whatever they met. Synchronization is the centre of gravity of this Deathwing detachment. If they keep together they are unstopppable. If they get unsynched through quirky charge rolls, though, they literally come apart.

The Librarian was hit and miss. Good old Smite worked a charm and he actually drew First Blood in the Psychic Phase when he rolled an 11! Aversion is still a keeper. Righteous Repugnance is great when it goes off since I don't have a Lieutenant that can feasibly go with the Knights. It only went off half the time, though, and it ate CP rerolls as well! I kept Belial nearby as insurance for the hits. Low point for my Terminator Librarian thus far has been failing two casts in the same turn and then failing to kill a solitary Tau Drone in the Fight Phase. He's new but at least he's trying.

I'll give a Ravenwing detachment a whirl a fre times as the mobile element in place of the Deathwing, but the Hellblaster core is staying.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/31 14:37:09


Post by: djones520


Two lists i'm looking at right now, very similar, only real difference is in the Heavy Support.

#1
Azrael
Master with Jump pack

Tactical x 10 w/ Missile, and Plasma
Tactical x 10 w/ Missile, and Plasma
Tactical x 10 w/ Missile, and Plasma

Inceptors x5 w/ Plasma
Inceptors x5 w/ Plasma

Hellblaster x10 w/ Standard Plasma
Hellblaster x10 w/ Standard Plasma

#2

Azrael
Master with Jump pack

Tactical x 10 w/ Missile, and Plasma
Tactical x 10 w/ Missile, and Plasma
Tactical x 10 w/ Missile, and Plasma

Inceptors x5 w/ Plasma
Inceptors x5 w/ Plasma

Predator w/ Autocannon and Lascannon Sponsons
Predator w/ Autocannon and Lascannon Sponsons
Predator w/ Autocannon and Lascannon Sponsons

Option number one gives me a lot more bodies on the table, so a bit more survivability. I think option two gives me some more diverse firepower. Eitherway, Azrael will be hanging in the back supporting the HS options, while the Master comes in with the Inceptors to protect them from 1's.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/31 16:31:04


Post by: axisofentropy


 djones520 wrote:
Two lists i'm looking at right now, very similar, only real difference is in the Heavy Support.
scouts


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/31 16:34:04


Post by: djones520


 axisofentropy wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
Two lists i'm looking at right now, very similar, only real difference is in the Heavy Support.
scouts


I've heard multiple people say that. Is it that much of a deal?


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/31 18:35:13


Post by: Breng77


When you consider deepstrike and infiltrate mechanics yes. Consider this you put a unit at the edge of you deployment zone, then scouts ~18" beyond that. Now those deepstrike units need to be 9" further. So they end up 27" away from the things you really care about.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/31 19:09:30


Post by: Galas


How are you guys running your Company Veterans? (Besides the plasma squad, of course)

I'm liking them in units of 5 with Stormshield and powersword with a chaplain in a Rhino. Of course, keep them away from mass low-quality fire because they'll die just as easy as Tacticals costing double the points. But they do a nice and relatively cheap anti-elite unit.

I have other unit with two Chainswords that I run on a Razorback. Basically their only job is to munch the hordes that normally try to stop the tank from firing. They are cheap and work well, but I believe Reivers would be better for that role.
Company Veterans have half the wounds, and lose the -1ap Boltpistol. But they can enter the tank and are 2ppm cheaper. 4ppm if you take grav-chutes or grapel launchers for the Reivers to keep up with the tank.

I'm thinking of making a unit of 5 with two plasma pistols a head (And combiplasma por the sargeant). A squad of mini Cyphers. I don't know how good they will be... probably not very much. But they'll look sick AF. Basically you are paying 1 point more (14 for 2 pistols instead of 13 for a gun), losing any shooting capacity between 13"-24", having the same in 2-12", and being able to shoot into combat.
A big difference is that with a pistol, you die with a 1, but with a gun, you die in a 1 AFTER all the shoots have been made.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/31 19:53:18


Post by: MilkmanAl


I'd use them for horde control. It keeps them really cheap and fills a void that my armies typically aren't all that great at without significant attention during lost building.


Dark Angels Tactics 2018 - LVO lists on pg. 16, Adepticon lists pg. 24 @ 2017/12/31 19:57:17


Post by: Galas


How do you equip them for horde control? Double chainsword? Flamers? (to be honest i believe chainsword+stormbolter is a much better build than flamer. Cheaper and obly loses in overwatch)