I would say he's still costed just as inappropriately except on the other side of the bat. A lot more changed than just making him one of the more expensive MCs in the army you know, and those changes were more than crippling. But if you want to run one, go for it. Better troop choice than Stealers I guess.
Polkadragon wrote: I posted an update of my list in the "army list" section a while ago, but clearly all the active Tyranid players are located in this thread, so posting it here for some opinions.
As a reminder, I'm going to enter a 1750 tourney in November, which basically allows everything, with the exception of superheavies and Gargantuans from Forge World (regular FW is ok)
I should add that the missions are going to be very objective based, for instance the first one gives you victory points for each turn that you hold your own objective. So I might need a solid objective holder as well. With that in mind, the following list:
-- CAD Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
The idea being that the Tfex holds my objective, while keeping in range of the Malanthrope of course, while the Flyrants and Mawlocs try to push my opponent off his own objective. I'm considering hiding the Shrikes near my own objective to deal with tough troops coming to contest it. One more consideration is adding a Aegis Defense Line to protect my own objective, but since the objective in my deployment zone will be placed by my opponent, I'm not sure about the timing. Do you get to place your fortification Before or After the objectives?
Anyway, I welcome all remarks on this list!
Looks a little body lite, ands the Shrikes feel a bit unsupported. But you should be able to to amek a real dent in opposing forces.
Damn it! I want my tyranid knight-analogue for Pacific Rim-style games.
Kind of bugs me that despite the 'nidzilla' phrase that's been floating around since 3rd edition, we still can't do a pure monstrous creature army.....
Sure we can, almost. With the exception of a few ripper troops and the malan (which used to be a TMC), this is my idea for an almost pure nidzilla list (with self-allies).
I cannot for the life of me not understand why bugs cannot get a LoW that is a Gargantuan walker.
Why would you want a Gargantuan walker when we have Gargantuan creatures? Leave the robots to the Imperials. We have gigantic walking bio-weapons instead.
Just bring your Hierophant Bio-titan with the biomorph that causes wounds/glancing hits to enemy units/walkers in combat and you will never have to worry about those pesky Imperial Knights ever again.
It is alright, definitely WAY too expensive, but still has its uses. Most importantly of which is to produce more backfield fearless troops to hold objectives. The most idiotic change was to his backlash though, in most games I lost more gants to that than anyhing else (on the rare occasion when the terv actually dies)
SHUPPET wrote: I would say he's still costed just as inappropriately except on the other side of the bat. A lot more changed than just making him one of the more expensive MCs in the army you know, and those changes were more than crippling. But if you want to run one, go for it. Better troop choice than Stealers I guess.
You really can't just compare him by straight-up point costs against the other Tyranid MC's. If you do, then yeah, he seems to be over-costed. However, he is a force-multiplier that can generate free troops. No other Tyranid unit can do that. Now he isn't the must-take that he used to be, but he is still a solid choice for a primarily Tyranid ground force. I would still consider running him if I were to run a more traditional Tyranid tournament list (i.e. non-Skyblight or a non-MTO Tyranid force).
I've been running a Highlander monster mash list for a while now, not exactly optimized but tons of fun! Currently kitted for 1750 but will be bumped to 1850 and rearanged likely with the new bug coming out.
HQ Hive tyrant, wings, x2 TL devourers, electroshock grubs
Old One Eye
Polkadragon wrote: I posted an update of my list in the "army list" section a while ago, but clearly all the active Tyranid players are located in this thread, so posting it here for some opinions.
As a reminder, I'm going to enter a 1750 tourney in November, which basically allows everything, with the exception of superheavies and Gargantuans from Forge World (regular FW is ok)
I should add that the missions are going to be very objective based, for instance the first one gives you victory points for each turn that you hold your own objective. So I might need a solid objective holder as well. With that in mind, the following list:
Spoiler:
-- CAD Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
The idea being that the Tfex holds my objective, while keeping in range of the Malanthrope of course, while the Flyrants and Mawlocs try to push my opponent off his own objective. I'm considering hiding the Shrikes near my own objective to deal with tough troops coming to contest it. One more consideration is adding a Aegis Defense Line to protect my own objective, but since the objective in my deployment zone will be placed by my opponent, I'm not sure about the timing. Do you get to place your fortification Before or After the objectives?
Anyway, I welcome all remarks on this list!
I actually like this list. I'm not a fan of the TFex though. He just doesn't get it done for me. What role does he fill in your army? Personally I would take out him and a Mawloc to throw in a screening gargoyle unit (they're still quite good tarpitters as well if you have a large one) and maybe some sort of assaulty threat. You could grab a Dakkafex (while not designed for assault he is still good) or a Dimachaeron if you're able. He is still a murder machine and with the shrikes your opponents would have to decide who they want to deal with, not if the will deal with him or not. I'm going to be running a similar list with some Raveners once I get my hands on more (anyone want some Wraits and have extra lol?)
gameandwatch wrote: It is alright, definitely WAY too expensive, but still has its uses. Most importantly of which is to produce more backfield fearless troops to hold objectives. The most idiotic change was to his backlash though, in most games I lost more gants to that than anyhing else (on the rare occasion when the terv actually dies)
Backlash can be mitigated. Just move those gants more than 6" from the tervigon or place them in terrain if possible. With the malanthrope nearby, then they can potentially get 3+/2+ cover even against the backlash.
While gants produced can be used to grab objectives, oftentimes, I play them more aggressive than that. Shoot them forwards to be screening units or to try to tie up enemy units (even 1 or 2 turns will help if they are able to tie up an enemy shooty unit). Also, each unit of gant he produces, the enemy needs to waste resources to get rid of. That means less guns against the rest of the army as they try to clear the newly spawned gants.
gameandwatch wrote: It is alright, definitely WAY too expensive, but still has its uses. Most importantly of which is to produce more backfield fearless troops to hold objectives. The most idiotic change was to his backlash though, in most games I lost more gants to that than anyhing else (on the rare occasion when the terv actually dies)
Backlash can be mitigated. Just move those gants more than 6" from the tervigon or place them in terrain if possible. With the malanthrope nearby, then they can potentially get 3+/2+ cover even against the backlash.
While gants produced can be used to grab objectives, oftentimes, I play them more aggressive than that. Shoot them forwards to be screening units or to try to tie up enemy units (even 1 or 2 turns will help if they are able to tie up an enemy shooty unit). Also, each unit of gant he produces, the enemy needs to waste resources to get rid of. That means less guns against the rest of the army as they try to clear the newly spawned gants.
The backlash is 12" now if I believe, not 6
And yeah, I am also usually aggressive with gants, but more often than not, not the ones produced by tervigons, because the rest of my army at that point is too far away for most produced squads to catch up
gameandwatch wrote: It is alright, definitely WAY too expensive, but still has its uses. Most importantly of which is to produce more backfield fearless troops to hold objectives. The most idiotic change was to his backlash though, in most games I lost more gants to that than anyhing else (on the rare occasion when the terv actually dies)
Backlash can be mitigated. Just move those gants more than 6" from the tervigon or place them in terrain if possible. With the malanthrope nearby, then they can potentially get 3+/2+ cover even against the backlash.
While gants produced can be used to grab objectives, oftentimes, I play them more aggressive than that. Shoot them forwards to be screening units or to try to tie up enemy units (even 1 or 2 turns will help if they are able to tie up an enemy shooty unit). Also, each unit of gant he produces, the enemy needs to waste resources to get rid of. That means less guns against the rest of the army as they try to clear the newly spawned gants.
The backlash is 12" now if I believe, not 6
Ouch. Well, at least place them near the malan for some cover. On average (without cover) the backlash will kill about 5 gants. With 5+ Malan cover (out in the open), that means you're lose only 3 gants. A 30-gant unit can easily absorb that, even without cover.
Polkadragon wrote: I posted an update of my list in the "army list" section a while ago, but clearly all the active Tyranid players are located in this thread, so posting it here for some opinions.
As a reminder, I'm going to enter a 1750 tourney in November, which basically allows everything, with the exception of superheavies and Gargantuans from Forge World (regular FW is ok)
I should add that the missions are going to be very objective based, for instance the first one gives you victory points for each turn that you hold your own objective. So I might need a solid objective holder as well. With that in mind, the following list:
Spoiler:
-- CAD Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
The idea being that the Tfex holds my objective, while keeping in range of the Malanthrope of course, while the Flyrants and Mawlocs try to push my opponent off his own objective. I'm considering hiding the Shrikes near my own objective to deal with tough troops coming to contest it. One more consideration is adding a Aegis Defense Line to protect my own objective, but since the objective in my deployment zone will be placed by my opponent, I'm not sure about the timing. Do you get to place your fortification Before or After the objectives?
Anyway, I welcome all remarks on this list!
I actually like this list. I'm not a fan of the TFex though. He just doesn't get it done for me. What role does he fill in your army? Personally I would take out him and a Mawloc to throw in a screening gargoyle unit (they're still quite good tarpitters as well if you have a large one) and maybe some sort of assaulty threat. You could grab a Dakkafex (while not designed for assault he is still good) or a Dimachaeron if you're able. He is still a murder machine and with the shrikes your opponents would have to decide who they want to deal with, not if the will deal with him or not. I'm going to be running a similar list with some Raveners once I get my hands on more (anyone want some Wraits and have extra lol?)
The idea is to use the durability of the Tfex as a solid objective holder. Because otherwise the list doesn't really have much units that can hold my own backfield objective(s). With the Flyrants and Mawlocs and possibly the Shrikes I should have enough to put pressure on the opponent, but I feel I need a solid backfield presence as well. If need be, the Tfex can always advance as well and possess midfield along with the Living Artillery crew.
gameandwatch wrote: It is alright, definitely WAY too expensive, but still has its uses. Most importantly of which is to produce more backfield fearless troops to hold objectives. The most idiotic change was to his backlash though, in most games I lost more gants to that than anyhing else (on the rare occasion when the terv actually dies)
Backlash can be mitigated. Just move those gants more than 6" from the tervigon or place them in terrain if possible. With the malanthrope nearby, then they can potentially get 3+/2+ cover even against the backlash.
While gants produced can be used to grab objectives, oftentimes, I play them more aggressive than that. Shoot them forwards to be screening units or to try to tie up enemy units (even 1 or 2 turns will help if they are able to tie up an enemy shooty unit). Also, each unit of gant he produces, the enemy needs to waste resources to get rid of. That means less guns against the rest of the army as they try to clear the newly spawned gants.
You mitigate backlash with Hive Commander. Outflank either the Termagants or the Tervigon depending on the situation. I've used this quite a lot, and recommend it if you must take a Tervigon. Still not a competitive build, though.
You mitigate backlash because it's treated like a shooting attack. Just keep a couple in that 12" range that you need for synapse anyway and that's all that will die.
gigasnail wrote: You mitigate backlash because it's treated like a shooting attack. Just keep a couple in that 12" range that you need for synapse anyway and that's all that will die.
You are a clever bastard, I never thought of that! Well done gigasnail!
gigasnail wrote: You mitigate backlash because it's treated like a shooting attack. Just keep a couple in that 12" range that you need for synapse anyway and that's all that will die.
You are a clever bastard, I never thought of that! Well done gigasnail!
Oh. My. God. Acceptable losses have never been easier!
gameandwatch wrote: It is alright, definitely WAY too expensive, but still has its uses. Most importantly of which is to produce more backfield fearless troops to hold objectives. The most idiotic change was to his backlash though, in most games I lost more gants to that than anyhing else (on the rare occasion when the terv actually dies)
Backlash can be mitigated. Just move those gants more than 6" from the tervigon or place them in terrain if possible. With the malanthrope nearby, then they can potentially get 3+/2+ cover even against the backlash.
While gants produced can be used to grab objectives, oftentimes, I play them more aggressive than that. Shoot them forwards to be screening units or to try to tie up enemy units (even 1 or 2 turns will help if they are able to tie up an enemy shooty unit). Also, each unit of gant he produces, the enemy needs to waste resources to get rid of. That means less guns against the rest of the army as they try to clear the newly spawned gants.
The backlash is 12" now if I believe, not 6
Ouch. Well, at least place them near the malan for some cover. On average (without cover) the backlash will kill about 5 gants. With 5+ Malan cover (out in the open), that means you're lose only 3 gants. A 30-gant unit can easily absorb that, even without cover.
Posts like this do make a person wonder how much playing and theory crafting you've actually done with certain units, or if you are just repeating what you've seen said by a certain person or two who you think knows this game well enough to have their statements repeated.... For someone arguing a models merits so hard you obviously haven't done much playing with it.
Also, why would you assume that I am ignoring all it's abilities when I say it's overcosted? It's overcosted including, and almost BECAUSE of them... it's almost Flyrant price (in fact after giving the one we are seeing discussed the upgrades it has, it IS flyrant priced) for a unit that is most discernibly not a Flyrant, or even close in level of game impact... it's an easy thing to kill, is highly cost effective target to shoot at, and while better than the Dima, doesn't actually add much reliability, and helps secure a role our army already excels at, which is map control inside that bubble of range around out army.... you'd be better off with the points dumped into seperate units of Rippers... I will say that it's not an auto-lose unit like some others, just severely outclassed, and overpriced.
Sounds to me like he just hasn't played with Tervigons in a while. Which is fair - a lot of us haven't. The synaptic backlash change was a big reason why (along with many of the other nerfs to Momma Jamma). Basically the only way to completely mitigate it is to stay in the 12"-18" range and cast dominion every turn...but we ain't got no warp charge for that!!!
I've use the tervigon a couple of times early in 7th, though it was a mainstay of my Tyranid army in the latter half of 6th. I admit that my memories of its rules are a little joggy. Nevertheless, it's playstyle is still the same as before. My opinions are both from my analysis of the unit as well as my experiences with it. Anyone that gives me advice about a unit, I always take with both an open mind and with a grain of salt until I personally have had time to run the unit itself in actual play.
Like I've said, we are not going to agree about the cost of the unit. You think it is over-costed. I think that it is priced just right. Let's just agree to disagree here. I will say this , however. I would run him in my competitive TAC Tyranid list if I were to play a Tyranid ground-&-pound type of list. Force multiplier units (FMU's) > normal units. Just don't go overboard by taking too many of those FMU's. 1 is usually all that you'll need and spamming them actually reduces the potency of your list.
Like I've said, we are not going to agree about the cost of the unit. You think it is over-costed. I think that it is priced just right. Let's just agree to disagree here.
Actually, you didn't say this at all, in any way shape or form did you even deliver this sentiment, you simply just stated your opinion and the fact that you think it's overcosted and that I'm wrong, not that "we should agree to disagree". You were the one who started this disagreement by quoting me and saying that I'm wrong, if you don't want to have this discussion, stop responding to it with counter points. :S
jy2 wrote: Force multiplier units (FMU's) > normal units. Just don't go overboard by taking too many of those FMU's. 1 is usually all that you'll need and spamming them actually reduces the potency of your list.
300+ points spent on zero aggression undeniably already reduces the "potency" of your list, even if you might trade it off for some scoring, that's not really inclusive in a lists "potency". Also, it's not a force multiplier in any sense, at best it's a force addition, it doesn't multiply the effectiveness of your points on the board (a.l.a Venomthrope), it simply adds a value of points between two set numbers, every turn, assuming you don't jam. So unlike a force multiplier, which will be more effective the higher level of points you go, this has quite the opposite effect of being more effective the lower value of points you go, here's some extremes, at 5000 points spawning say 50 gants in a game (random number for sake of example) isn't exactly huge consisting of a 4% buff to the total size of your army at the cost of all the negatives about him,however imagine being able to play him in 200 pt kill team, you've just given yourself a 200% army size multiplier! Force multiplier he is not, he'd actually be a force DIVIDER if his feedback was ever relevant to anything other than the own Gants he spawns. Anyway, I say force addition AT BEST, because after you've taken 120 points of a unit not worth taking on its own merits (Gants) and 200 points of a unit also not worth taking on it's own merits if we are going to look at Spawning as an added effect. you then get the payoff of spawns of Termagants (who you cannot rely on in any way including both size and amount of spawns during the duration of any given game, it's quite a massive variable), that are still just units that you wouldn't pay for if they weren't free, who do nothing but lock down the objectives in the back of your field, in both a more expensive and less reliable manner than just, buying actual Termagants would do, to say nothing of Rippers. That being said, it's the objectives on our side of the table that our army as a whole excels in taking, and doesn't really need any special investment to do so, this role is barely even relevant.
The Tervigon requires dedicating so many points into it of which you are often likely to see no return on (clog turn 1 / 2, be left with an MC who has the price speed and threat range of the already overcosted and gimmicky Dima, except isn't an actual threat to anything (except for of course it's own spawns, who are also a threat to nothing, and can achieve nothing but further securing something that would only not be getting dominated in the first place would be if you were say, playing with a 300 point deficit for picking these models in the first place ~_~), or even on a good day anywhere near as much return as you would from say, a Dakkafex and 4 squads of Rippers for a similar price. This model is bad. Feel free to "agree to disagree" if that's what you want to do, but "agre to disagree" is a term used to describe someone who chooses not further extend a debate, which means not being the person who started it with a conflict of opinion and continues to argue every response made to that conflicting opinion.
ref: tervigon. the points required alone make the unit undesirable. i'm not spending 300+ on troops without a good reason. every bit of threat has been removed from a tervigon.
What is the consensus on Troop Warriors in a competitive environment? Is there a place for them besides a formation tax, or is it just all rippers and gaunts all the time?
Like I've said, we are not going to agree about the cost of the unit. You think it is over-costed. I think that it is priced just right. Let's just agree to disagree here.
Actually, you didn't say this at all, in any way shape or form did you even deliver this sentiment, you simply just stated your opinion and the fact that you think it's overcosted and that I'm wrong, not that "we should agree to disagree". You were the one who started this disagreement by quoting me and saying that I'm wrong, if you don't want to have this discussion, stop responding to it with counter points. :S
What are you talking about. I think it is costed appropriately. You think it is over-costed. Therefore, we disagree, both now and much earlier in this thread. Period. BTW, I never said that you were wrong. There is no right or wrong here with regards to the units. I just disagreed with your statement that they were bad. Doesn't necessarily mean that you're wrong. It just means that I feel that they are good enough to contribute positively to the army.
jy2 wrote: Force multiplier units (FMU's) > normal units. Just don't go overboard by taking too many of those FMU's. 1 is usually all that you'll need and spamming them actually reduces the potency of your list.
300+ points spent on zero aggression undeniably already reduces the "potency" of your list, even if you might trade it off for some scoring, that's not really inclusive in a lists "potency". Also, it's not a force multiplier in any sense, at best it's a force addition, it doesn't multiply the effectiveness of your points on the board (a.l.a Venomthrope), it simply adds a value of points between two set numbers, every turn, assuming you don't jam. So unlike a force multiplier, which will be more effective the higher level of points you go, this has quite the opposite effect of being more effective the lower value of points you go, here's some extremes, at 5000 points spawning say 50 gants in a game (random number for sake of example) isn't exactly huge consisting of a 4% buff to the total size of your army at the cost of all the negatives about him,however imagine being able to play him in 200 pt kill team, you've just given yourself a 200% army size multiplier! Force multiplier he is not, he'd actually be a force DIVIDER if his feedback was ever relevant to anything other than the own Gants he spawns. Anyway, I say force addition AT BEST, because after you've taken 120 points of a unit not worth taking on its own merits (Gants) and 200 points of a unit also not worth taking on it's own merits if we are going to look at Spawning as an added effect. you then get the payoff of spawns of Termagants (who you cannot rely on in any way including both size and amount of spawns during the duration of any given game, it's quite a massive variable), that are still just units that you wouldn't pay for if they weren't free, who do nothing but lock down the objectives in the back of your field, in both a more expensive and less reliable manner than just, buying actual Termagants would do, to say nothing of Rippers. That being said, it's the objectives on our side of the table that our army as a whole excels in taking, and doesn't really need any special investment to do so, this role is barely even relevant.
The Tervigon requires dedicating so many points into it of which you are often likely to see no return on (clog turn 1 / 2, be left with an MC who has the price speed and threat range of the already overcosted and gimmicky Dima, except isn't an actual threat to anything (except for of course it's own spawns, who are also a threat to nothing, and can achieve nothing but further securing something that would only not be getting dominated in the first place would be if you were say, playing with a 300 point deficit for picking these models in the first place ~_~), or even on a good day anywhere near as much return as you would from say, a Dakkafex and 4 squads of Rippers for a similar price. This model is bad. Feel free to "agree to disagree" if that's what you want to do, but "agre to disagree" is a term used to describe someone who chooses not further extend a debate, which means not being the person who started it with a conflict of opinion and continues to argue every response made to that conflicting opinion.
Ok, let me tell you how it (tervigon) can help out the army.
1. The biggest boon is his ability to add units.
2. Said units can help out the army by grabbing objectives, thus freeing the rest of the army to focus on offense.
3. Said units take away resources from the enemy (i.e. enemy firepower), thus helping the rest of the army to survive longer.
4. Said units can help the army to survive longer by acting as screening roadblocks or to try to tarpit enemy units, even if for only 1 or 2 turns.
5. Tervigon can help army with psychic power.
6. He adds to the warp dice pool.
7. Beacon of synapse.
8. He can and oftentimes does soak up valuable enemy resources (i.e. fire magnet), especially with support from the Malanthrope, thus allowing the Tyranid offense to carry on at an unreduced efficiency level.
9. Being a MC, he is still a threat to enemy infantry and vehicles, especially with the proper upgrades (crushing claws or egrubs or both).
10. With crushing claws and/or egrubs, he is actually a more viable threat to imperial knights than many of the other TMC's.
11. He is objective secured, a trait that none of the other TMC's have. Have fun trying to contest his objective.
Now how is he not a Force-multiplier? Everything he does, it helps the army, if not directly than indirectly.
gigasnail wrote: ref: tervigon. the points required alone make the unit undesirable. i'm not spending 300+ on troops without a good reason. every bit of threat has been removed from a tervigon.
That is fine. Many people feel that his points-cost is unjustified, and thus, undesirable, just because he doesn't fight like the dimachaeron, shoot like the dakkarant, move like the flyrant and kills his own units when he dies. I get that. However, to me, that is just the surface perspective of the unit. His worth to the army is much more subtle than that, as he is a facilitator to the army rather than as a direct offensive unit.
Sinful Hero wrote: What is the consensus on Troop Warriors in a competitive environment? Is there a place for them besides a formation tax, or is it just all rippers and gaunts all the time?
A lot of people don't like them. Living artillery is definitely a great way to run them. Used to be that you would use them as backfield support, where they were my troop choice in sixth (I actually didn't run LAN then). Now, to get the Tervigon as a troop, it does cost more than it used to, but definitely still provides benefits as well (see the discussion Jy2 and Shuppet are having).
The reason why a lot of people have moved away from the Tervigon and Warriors as troop choices is for a couple of reasons:
1) the Malanthrope now provides durable backfield synapse support for very little, fulfilling many roles that these used to for cheaper
2) even without the Malanthrope, Tyranids run well on what you could call "Objective Secured light", where you don't need many Objective Secured units because the supporting cast can be strong when you spend 80-90 points on troops and let the rest of your army do the heavy lifting. A lot of other armies need at least 140-200 points for their troop choices (and the often obligatory transports to go with them) to fulfill much of the same role. So you can essentially operate at an advantage against these types of armies
3) The prevalence of ignores cover means that if anyone really wants to kill your warriors, they usually can. Making them waste those shots on cheaper rippers or other gribblies is, again, more points-efficient.
All that being said, I definitely think you can make warriors work. If you're running Living Artillery as well, it's a little more rough because that's a lot of Strength 8 instant death vulnerability, and likely too many units that mostly want to camp in the backfield. But try both and see what works for you. So much of the issue with 40k is that we say, "oh no that won't work because of X, Y, and Z". While this might be true, if you don't come across those counters in your local meta often or can provide adequate target saturation for the offending units, it might not be a big deal. Finally, it's all a dice game and maybe bringing warriors gives you a slight edge in winning the game, and maybe the Tervigon or rippers give you a slightly better chance. I think too often we exaggerate the probabilities and think that bringing a subpar unit means that we'll lose 70-80 percent of our games. Sure, if our whole army is like that it might be true, but as long as a unit has a role in your army and fulfills that role decently well, you don't have to just cherry pick all of our best units to win.
This probably doesn't get said enough - if you want to have a better chance at winning, learn the game better. Learn your opponents' armies so that you can make better-informed decisions. Develop multiple tactical approaches for your army. To me, all of these activities will do your win percentage a better favor than finding out that one unit gives you a slight statistical edge or handicap
Sinful Hero wrote: What is the consensus on Troop Warriors in a competitive environment? Is there a place for them besides a formation tax, or is it just all rippers and gaunts all the time?
These are the only instances where you'd want to run warriors:
1. As part of a formation.
2. For some reason, you want more durable Synapse in the backfield but don't want to spend the points on a tervigon+termagants.
3. You want to focus on a more warrior-centric offense. This is more of a playstyle preference than a competitive choice.
Otherwise, no, warriors are not necessary in a competitive environment.
Outside of Formations, Warriors are best used as back field support/synapse. They're not as good as in the end of 6th, and I wouldn't take th now. But, I would highly recommend taking Shrikes. Instead of ObSec, you gain jump move. Just keep them near cover to negate the 5+ save with a Venomthrope nearby. But, now that Malanthropes are a thing, you often won't need backfield synapse, so Shrikes aren't fully necessary.
EDIT: basically, either run Malanthropes, or Venomthropes and Shrikes, if you need any kind of Synapse in your backfield, which most lists will. Shrikes continue to be underrated within te codex but they're really amazing versatile.
gigasnail wrote: ref: tervigon. the points required alone make the unit undesirable. i'm not spending 300+ on troops without a good reason. every bit of threat has been removed from a tervigon.
That is fine. Many people feel that his points-cost is unjustified, and thus, undesirable, just because he doesn't fight like the dimachaeron, shoot like the dakkarant, move like the flyrant and kills his own units when he dies. I get that. However, to me, that is just the surface perspective of the unit. His worth to the army is much less obvious than that, as he is a facilitator to the army rather than as a direct offensive unit.
points cost aside, he really doesn't bring a lot to the table. scoring? the novelty of a scoring MC is gone. yes it's obsec, but that only matters when you haven't mowed down your opponent's troops. synapse, i have malanthropes which provide synapse, shrouding, and potentially PE, at a fraction of the cost. sure terv poops out gribblies, but after the countless nerfs to the unit we don't need to go over again, what does that get you? hey awesome, here's a speedbump that has bolt pistols. cool, great. not really useful with the amount of firepower being tossed around.
Sinful Hero wrote: What is the consensus on Troop Warriors in a competitive environment? Is there a place for them besides a formation tax, or is it just all rippers and gaunts all the time?
The question has been answered, but one item that wasn't highlighted is that Shrikes are better than warriors. Not just a little better. With the extra movement they can make it to assault and stay safe there. Shrikes still don't have a place in competitive lists, but they don't miss out by much.
[Rant about movement in 40k] One of the fundamental imbalances in 40k is the speed of movement. It affects Tyranids more than most because we lack transport options that are widely available to other armies. If 6" is going to be the basic speed of movement then 12" shouldn't be the speed of fast things. That is such a substantial difference as to make slower things start out at a significant disadvantage especially if they have limited range or are primarily an assault unit. Unit type was the most important things about the new MC's. If they had been beasts, they would have been viable (maybe not the maleceptor). One fundamental change to the game that would generally improve balance would be to reduce movement speed by Beasts, Jump, Bikes, and vehicles to 9". Alternatively the speed of infantry, MCs, and Walkers could be increased to 9". In exchange, the run moves of Bikes(Turbo boost), Jump, and beasts could be increased to 2D6. This would go a long ways to fixing many of the units that are unworkable by modern standards such as Warriors or Haruspexes. As a general rule, anything that moves 6", runs D6" and doesn't have a transport option is nonviable in anything but a support role unless it does nearly optimum damage at 24" or more. There are exceptions such as the Dakkafex, but they are quite rare.[/Rant]
I have 130 points in my 1250 double cad list that I don't know what to do with. Looked into Genestealers, ideally want something that's good in CC.
Was thinkning 3 Shrikes, 1 Lw/bs and 2 RC, all with Poison for 129 points.
Rest of the list is three standard Flyrants, Rippers x4, Malanthrope and Harpy (there for Large Blasts for hordes).
Alternatively, I could swap the Malanthrope for Venom/Zoan and have three Biovores.
I'd just run them naked with rending claws. Forget about trying to kit them with too much and just look at them as a disposable unit. Go with numbers. More shrikes is better than shrikes with too many toys. The rending claws is to make them more flexible, both against infantry and vehicles.
Warriors were definitely the best standard Synapse in 6th if you weren't running enough ground units to benefit from Onslaught, but Mope has provided some serious competition for that role now. There is merits to both in such a build, Vope + Warriors is slightly more expensive than Malanthrope + Rippers and slightly less mobile which might be a factor in an army with a lower model count, I'd say the Mope wins out here (while Warriors+Vope are still a completely viable option with merits of their own), but I'd say in ground lists Zope + Vope wins out, sorting of making the Warriors slightly subpar no matter how you do it, but always a viable and playable option for Synapse if you would prefer a Pinning Cannon, a little more aggression in CC and shooting, and are willing to trade off the mobility of your scoring and the durability of your cover save provider, or a Psychic Power, for a bit more oomph and durability out of the Synapse unit itself.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah and Living Artillery being the best formation we have access to imo makes good use out of taking 3, giving them a big buff in pining Venom cannon that is also twin-linked, making them very justifiable and well worth the same MASSIVE benefits that they provide to 2 other staples of competitive play (Exocrine & Biovores).
I have 130 points in my 1250 double cad list that I don't know what to do with. Looked into Genestealers, ideally want something that's good in CC.
Was thinkning 3 Shrikes, 1 Lw/bs and 2 RC, all with Poison for 129 points.
Rest of the list is three standard Flyrants, Rippers x4, Malanthrope and Harpy (there for Large Blasts for hordes).
Alternatively, I could swap the Malanthrope for Venom/Zoan and have three Biovores.
The best way to run Shrikes is cheap. I actually wouldn't run them CC because they have such bad saves, the mobility is best used for moving synapse and grabbing objectives. For 130 points, I would take 3 shrikes with a Barbed Strangler and 2 Rending Claws with Scytals. You get 8 rending attacks in CC an good long range firepower. You hang around away from the enemy just providing synapse and dropping plates. If needed, they can add punch to a swarm of gants assaulting but I wouldn't send them alone against anything tougher than a combat squad.
I will probably go with jifels advice (Barbed Strangler, two Rending Claws) as that costs 110 points, so I can have the Shrikes as Anti-Horde with the Pie Plate (and occassional pinning) and upgrade the Harpy to a Hive Crone for a few more Haywire weapons and reliable AA.
I will probably go with jifels advice (Barbed Strangler, two Rending Claws) as that costs 110 points, so I can have the Shrikes as Anti-Horde with the Pie Plate (and occassional pinning) and upgrade the Harpy to a Hive Crone for a few more Haywire weapons and reliable AA.
Personally, this is how I would run them (given that I only have 130-pts):
4x Shrikes - 2x Rending claws
And here is why:
1. More models = more durability = actually better able to survive to grab an objective.
2. More models = more close-combat effectiveness. At the very least, it makes for a better tarpitting unit as long as the unit it charges does not have too many S8+ cc attacks.
3. More models = better durability because you are more able to string them out to within malan/venomthrope range.
4. Give them a gun like the BS or VC means that you are under-utilizing their shooting capability. Why? Because that would mean that the devourers would most likely be out of range if you are constantly firing the BS or VC.
In any case, I am in the camp of more bodies = better (as long as at least some of them have rending claws in order to be able to deal with vehicles).
Hi guys I need help to complete my 1750 points army
Interesting if anyone has any suggestions for alterations and what to spend the remaining points on
I'm looking for a good list although not necessarily fully optimized
I'm avoiding Lords of War and even considering avoiding Forgeworld and replacing Malanthropes with venoms + zoans
Contemplating trying to squeeze in a tervigon, adding some devs to the gants, rippers or possibly hormagaunts (but probably not)
I've recently returned to Nids after a 15 year gap from 40k, this will mainly be used to plan my shopping list
Also Biovores are my favourite unit so LAN is a must for me and I love the idea of the Mawloc but have never used one in play
spoboyle wrote: Hi guys I need help to complete my 1750 points army
Interesting if anyone has any suggestions for alterations and what to spend the remaining points on
I'm looking for a good list although not necessarily fully optimized I'm avoiding Lords of War and even considering avoiding Forgeworld and replacing Malanthropes with venoms + zoans Contemplating trying to squeeze in a tervigon, adding some devs to the gants, rippers or possibly hormagaunts (but probably not)
I've recently returned to Nids after a 15 year gap from 40k, this will mainly be used to plan my shopping list
Heavy Support 2x Carnifex 2 TWDevs + BLW 300 Mawloc 140
Formation 390 Living Artillery Node 390
Total 1640
I like this list, it's actually not too different from my own 1750 list (check page 201 for the latest version of it).
I really like Mawlocs myself, but you probably want two to make them somewhat dependable, so that would be my advice for the remaining points. That would put you at 1780 points though, so you need to shave some points off. If you replace one unit of Gaunts with a unit of deep striking rippers, you should be ok again and gain some mobility to boot.
NightWrench wrote: I cannot for the life of me not understand why bugs cannot get a LoW that is a Gargantuan walker.
We have - the Hierophant and the Hierodule.
The Hierodule isn't actually that bad, just because it has some of the only reach-out-and-touch-you antitank firepower in the army. It's quite capable of reducing a wraithknight to paste in one volley of fire, and anything which can do that deserves a little respect.
Just keep in mind that it's much better at pummeling lighter units (by which I mean 3+ save monstrous creatures, T5 heavy infantry and vehicles!) than it is at engaging other super-heavies. DON'T take one up against a knight if you can avoid it. It can win a stand-off shooting match against one knight, but maybe not before the imperial war engine catches it and puts a reaper chainsword through its neck.
The hierophant has no more firepower but is night impossible to kill without destroyer weapons*. With destroyer weapons, it goes down like a sack of chopped meat.
* I think you need an average of something like four hundred krak missiles to have a reasonable chance ot stopping it!
What is the best way to run a Tervigon? It's going to be in the HQ as I can not find the points for Termagant tax. I also think 4 Flyrants at 1250 (double Cad) is too stronk after already running 3 at 1000 and I do need some ground troops (spawned gants could also tarpit)
Egrubs is always on as they are awesome but what would be better? Have it with Miasma Cannon and sit back on an objective, or have Crushing Claws for tank hunting?
And what would make a better Warlord, Tervigon or Flyrant?
I will probably go with jifels advice (Barbed Strangler, two Rending Claws) as that costs 110 points, so I can have the Shrikes as Anti-Horde with the Pie Plate (and occassional pinning) and upgrade the Harpy to a Hive Crone for a few more Haywire weapons and reliable AA.
I run a different style army than those two, because I include gants and gargoyles. For me Gants are an Anvil, and shrikes are a hammer. That means 1 BS + LW w/ Scytal for every 2-4 RC w/ Devourer Shrikes. If I have the points I give them Adrenal Glands (not poison, never poison), but generally it is better to just grab more Shrikes. It comes down to play style. Jifel likes to run his Shrikes as a backfield support unit relying on staying out of range / LOS to keep them safe. I run them in a forward support/offensive role. I relying on staying in combat with them to keep them safe, and in using screeners / tarpits to neutralize the threats to them. Neither of them usually play with screeners or tarpits, and therefore cannot use Shrikes the way I use them. My Shrikes are likely to make their points back. A backfield support group of Shrikes is rarely going to make its points back.
I cannot for the life of me not understand why bugs cannot get a LoW that is a Gargantuan walker.
Why would you want a Gargantuan walker when we have Gargantuan creatures? Leave the robots to the Imperials. We have gigantic walking bio-weapons instead.
Just bring your Hierophant Bio-titan with the biomorph that causes wounds/glancing hits to enemy units/walkers in combat and you will never have to worry about those pesky Imperial Knights ever again.
I meant creature not walker...that is what I get for not paying attention to what I was typing in a meeting. Come on work I am trying to read forums here. Anyway the one LGS does not allow Forgeworld and basically anything that is not in escalation as well as no flying gargantuan creatures or dataslates for that matter. So as a bug player I am kind of limited to the primary CAD and that is it.
The primary guy I play against is chaos and he does not have a LoW or titan except a Warhound that is slated for his space wolves army.
I am planning to buy a Hierophant after Thanksgiving as a Christmas present...unless I end up buying the expensive bottle of Scotch instead and the box of cigars I want.
spoboyle wrote: Hi guys I need help to complete my 1750 points army
Troops 20x Borergants 80
20x Borergants 80
This isn't doing any good for you. If you want to run 40 Fleshgants, then run them in 4 squads. If you are looking at them as a screen or tarpit you should to be running gargoyles or hormagants instead. If you are looking at them as a shooting unit, you should drop 10 fleshgants and add 5 Devourer gants to each squad.
I cannot for the life of me not understand why bugs cannot get a LoW that is a Gargantuan walker.
Why would you want a Gargantuan walker when we have Gargantuan creatures? Leave the robots to the Imperials. We have gigantic walking bio-weapons instead.
Just bring your Hierophant Bio-titan with the biomorph that causes wounds/glancing hits to enemy units/walkers in combat and you will never have to worry about those pesky Imperial Knights ever again.
I meant creature not walker...that is what I get for not paying attention to what I was typing in a meeting. Come on work I am trying to read forums here. Anyway the one LGS does not allow Forgeworld and basically anything that is not in escalation as well as no flying gargantuan creatures or dataslates for that matter. So as a bug player I am kind of limited to the primary CAD and that is it.
The primary guy I play against is chaos and he does not have a LoW or titan except a Warhound that is slated for his space wolves army.
I am planning to buy a Hierophant after Thanksgiving as a Christmas present...unless I end up buying the expensive bottle of Scotch instead and the box of cigars I want.
Anything not in escalation as well as no flying gargantuans? Kind of one-sided on tyranids, isn't it? I was going to say "well what about a harridan, then", but I don't see the problem. If you're going to let people have the unholy monstrosity that is the revenant titan, what the hell is wrong with a harridan?
I forgot about acid ichor. That should do a decent job on Imperial Knights, then - especially since you strike first in combat thanks to the lashwhips and biocannon fire should take the odd hull point off before you engage.
What is the best way to run a Tervigon? It's going to be in the HQ as I can not find the points for Termagant tax. I also think 4 Flyrants at 1250 (double Cad) is too stronk after already running 3 at 1000 and I do need some ground troops (spawned gants could also tarpit)
Egrubs is always on as they are awesome but what would be better? Have it with Miasma Cannon and sit back on an objective, or have Crushing Claws for tank hunting?
And what would make a better Warlord, Tervigon or Flyrant?
4 flyrants is overkill at 1250. Even 2 is more than most armies can handle at that level. Since you are running double-CAD, you can go 2 flyrants + 1 tervigon. As Shuppet has mentioned previously (in our debate about the tervigon), the smaller the game, the bigger the impact the tervigon makes with his spawned units. For example, let's say he generates 10 gants a turn. If this is a 2K army, then he is adding 2% to the army each turn until he runs out. However, at 1250, he is adding 3.2% to the size of the army each turn in free units.
Crushing claws is better than miasma cannon. If he is sitting back on an objective shooting, then you are actually playing it wrong. What he needs to be doing is advancing with the army to act as another threat, which is why you should take crushing claws instead (that is, if you choose to give him an upgrade). Then you can have your "real" troops sit on a backfield objective or just spawn gants to do that. A 200-pt unit is too much just to sit on an objective in your backfield. You need to force your opponent to have to deal with the tervigon as well. Otherwise, it then becomes 1050 of Tyranids vs 1250 of whatever as your opponent can just ignore your tervie.
Could you (and others) look over this list? I'm trying to perfect it for a competitive setting at 1250 points, of which I think it will be Maelstrom, but could be Eternal.
Could you (and others) look over this list? I'm trying to perfect it for a competitive setting at 1250 points, of which I think it will be Maelstrom, but could be Eternal.
Troops 3x Rippers w/ Deep Strike = 45
3x Rippers w/ Deep Strike = 45
That isn't a very good list if you are playing maelstrom. You are going to have to table your opponent to outscore savvy ones, which is very possible for many matchups, but if you run into someone you can't table you are in trouble, because most of your units can't help you score maelstrom points, and your opponent has a very, very simple target priority. If that Tervigon goes down you have no board presence.
Instead, consider Dakkafexes or even Dimacharons. Terivigons make more sense at this low point level, but they also don't contribute as much offensively as other options. Here is what I would suggest.
It will allow you to score objectives while denying your opponent the ability to score them, and has an answer to pretty much everything you might see. As long as you don't get tabled you should outscore pretty much everybody.
Notice how my list throws more dakka and has a much higher model count. These are the things that win Maelstrom.
Because most of the competitive players are still running EW missions with a small Maelstrom component, mirroring a tradition competitive list is folly.
My army list is Tervigon-heavy. It's not the most competitive, I just like the idea of tyranids as this endless tidal wave of chitin. If I could spawn hormagaunts instead of termagants, I'd be all over that, and I keep intending to acquire a load of devourer-armed gaunts for the starting broods, but haven't got around to it.
The tervigon termagant broods have to be vanilla (fleshborers). Hence another reason why they're cack.
CHEERS GEEDUBS
Shoot if you like swarms o' figures I suggest Endless Swarm that way the Big Bugs you include can be "good" (like say a couple of Tyrants) (I posted a list called Endless Tunnel Assault a long while ago)
gameandwatch wrote: It is alright, definitely WAY too expensive, but still has its uses. Most importantly of which is to produce more backfield fearless troops to hold objectives. The most idiotic change was to his backlash though, in most games I lost more gants to that than anyhing else (on the rare occasion when the terv actually dies)
Backlash can be mitigated. Just move those gants more than 6" from the tervigon or place them in terrain if possible. With the malanthrope nearby, then they can potentially get 3+/2+ cover even against the backlash.
While gants produced can be used to grab objectives, oftentimes, I play them more aggressive than that. Shoot them forwards to be screening units or to try to tie up enemy units (even 1 or 2 turns will help if they are able to tie up an enemy shooty unit). Also, each unit of gant he produces, the enemy needs to waste resources to get rid of. That means less guns against the rest of the army as they try to clear the newly spawned gants.
You mitigate backlash with Hive Commander. Outflank either the Termagants or the Tervigon depending on the situation. I've used this quite a lot, and recommend it if you must take a Tervigon. Still not a competitive build, though.
Word, my standard answer to backlash has been to Outflank it, that way I get a threat into the backfield, and the spawns can bubble wrap, and additional spawns can run off to grab and hold terrain, si IB does little to them.
Could you (and others) look over this list? I'm trying to perfect it for a competitive setting at 1250 points, of which I think it will be Maelstrom, but could be Eternal.
Troops 3x Rippers w/ Deep Strike = 45
3x Rippers w/ Deep Strike = 45
You've got too many troops. At 1250, you really don't need that many ripper units. I'd recommend swapping out 2 ripper units for a unit of 15 gargoyles or a larger unit of screening hormagants. The reason why I recommend gargoyles/hormagants is because they are a good utility unit and they control the board better than just the rippers. Overall, they help to balance out your list.
10 Hormagants < amazing at Maelstrom
3 Rippers (DS) < not as good at Maelstrom, but you expressed a preference.
I'd have to disagree about the rippers not being as good at Maelstrom missions. It is precisely due to the flexibility of them being able to deploy almost anywhere why they are perfect for Maelstrom missions.
Could you (and others) look over this list? I'm trying to perfect it for a competitive setting at 1250 points, of which I think it will be Maelstrom, but could be Eternal.
Troops 3x Rippers w/ Deep Strike = 45
3x Rippers w/ Deep Strike = 45
You've got too many troops. At 1250, you really don't need that many ripper units. I'd recommend swapping out 2 ripper units for a unit of 15 gargoyles or a larger unit of screening hormagants. The reason why I recommend gargoyles/hormagants is because they are a good utility unit and they control the board better than just the rippers. Overall, they help to balance out your list.
10 Hormagants < amazing at Maelstrom
3 Rippers (DS) < not as good at Maelstrom, but you expressed a preference.
I'd have to disagree about the rippers not being as good at Maelstrom missions. It is precisely due to the flexibility of them being able to deploy almost anywhere why they are perfect for Maelstrom missions.
^^^^ I agree with jy2. You force your opponent to overkill your unit or not deal with them. How many TACMSU units can wipe a unit of rippers out in a turn? I'd argue not many. Therefore, your opponent will have to use something more powerful. I've been seeing the trend towards lots of units being taken for their ridiculous damage output. Fewer so, that aren't a waste to fire at a piddly unit of 3 rippers....
My opinion on Warp Blast has been changed much more for the better after Mechanicon. The sheer number of successes and the damage it put out was awesome on my Tyrants...I'll at least no longer frown when I roll it.
Iechine wrote: My opinion on Warp Blast has been changed much more for the better after Mechanicon. The sheer number of successes and the damage it put out was awesome on my Tyrants...I'll at least no longer frown when I roll it.
7th edition's psychic phase really buffed that power - yes, it made it harder to cast, but a Flyrant is able to drop Lance/Blast and still fire both Devs or a Dev and an ESG. Before, the risk wasn't worth the reward. Now it indisputably is.
I've got a 1650 Tournament coming up in two weeks time and finally decided I'm going to use my Nids and not Necrons.
This is the list I'm thinking of running,
Hive Tyrant - 240
Hive Tyrant - 240
Malonthrope
DS Rippers x 5
DS Rippers x 5
Skyblight
Edit: Just caught part of the comp that means any compulsary parts of the FOC must be at least 75 points, so I've put the rippers up to 5 base units and I'm left with 90 points?
Eldercaveman wrote: I've got a 1650 Tournament coming up in two weeks time and finally decided I'm going to use my Nids and not Necrons.
This is the list I'm thinking of running,
Hive Tyrant - 240
Hive Tyrant - 240
Malonthrope
DS Rippers x 5
DS Rippers x 5
Skyblight
Edit: Just caught part of the comp that means any compulsary parts of the FOC must be at least 75 points, so I've put the rippers up to 5 base units and I'm left with 90 points?
AG or more bodies with gargoyles. Or a 2nd malanthrope.
Eldercaveman wrote: I've got a 1650 Tournament coming up in two weeks time and finally decided I'm going to use my Nids and not Necrons.
This is the list I'm thinking of running,
Hive Tyrant - 240
Hive Tyrant - 240
Malonthrope
DS Rippers x 5
DS Rippers x 5
Skyblight
Edit: Just caught part of the comp that means any compulsary parts of the FOC must be at least 75 points, so I've put the rippers up to 5 base units and I'm left with 90 points?
AG or more bodies with gargoyles. Or a 2nd malanthrope.
I'm thinking the 2nd Malonthrope personally. More Gargoyles would mean buying building and painting more which I don't fancy, with the third tyrant and rippers I need to do anyway.
The only reason I have gone Skyblight is because it's the only way of getting the 3rd Tyrant in there due to the comp. Comp pack is here if anyone is interested to see what I'm working with.
10 Hormagants < amazing at Maelstrom 3 Rippers (DS) < not as good at Maelstrom, but you expressed a preference.
I'd have to disagree about the rippers not being as good at Maelstrom missions. It is precisely due to the flexibility of them being able to deploy almost anywhere why they are perfect for Maelstrom missions.
I generally defer to you as a more experience player of 40k, who plays in a more competitive meta, but on this one thing you are dead wrong, mainly because you are conflating the secondary component of BAO missions with Maelstrom. They are not the same. Not even close.
In Maelstrom you are playing with 6 objectives, and you are going to have to move a scoring unit from one to another, and ideally they will score one while denying others. Likewise you are going to need to deny your opponent access to all 6 objectives, because you generally don't know what cards he is going to draw. You draw and score cars on your player turn not the game turn. In that vein you have got to control the center of the board or you are going to lose. You need units that can score multiple points because final scores are in the range of 16-19. You generally have 3 or more active cards, and have to respond to all 3 of them every turn.
So lets look at advantages and disadvantages.
Hormagants Board control - They can spread out to quickly move between multiple objectives, and score one objective while contesting another Screening - They can provide cover saves to your army which MUST be at midfield, and cannot rely on terrain. Bounding Leap - This lets them regularly move 13-14" Enough to put 3-4 objectives within their one turn range. Fleet - Gives them reliable charge / run moves Survivability - I could write paragraphs on this. Suffice to say, if you play pure Maelstrom you will see what I mean in an instant. Tarpit - Part of board control is being able to neutralize units that can threaten your synapse such as Wraith Knights or Riptides or Dreadnoughts. Needs Synapse - mitigated by the center board control required for Maelstrom. If you lose your synapse you are likely losing the game. No guns Objective Secured - You've got to be able to steal objectives that are contested by things without OS, and to continue to contest against opponents os. Assault - several of the Maelstrom cards require that you get into assault. Gants can help support the units or break them out or eat overwatch. Big Profile - makes them a better screening unit. High Target Priority - Maelstrom gives opponents lots of reasons to target every unit in your army. But Hormagants because they can score so effective take alot of fire. Contribute Early - Turn 1 Hormagants almost always get you a maelstrom point, and can reach ones that are out of range of your other units. Turn 2, if they survive they can score another.
Rippers Deep strike - gets you 1 objective if you don't scatter, and come in on the perfect turn. T3 3 Wound - Every army has shooting capable of killing. Small unit size - Can't conga-line out of LOS or back to shrouding. Limited mobility - Once they arrive they move 9" on average. Inconsistent - Without fleet, jump, or beast the charge ranges, and run moves are not reliable, so you have to move a second unit into permission in case you roll poorly. Objective Secured - You've got to be able to steal objectives that are contested by things without OS, and to continue to contest against opponents os. Small profile - Easier to keep out of LOS. No Board Presence - Not there turn 1. When they do arrive they are only 3 bases and can't spread out very far. No guns High Target Priority - Maelstrom gives opponents lots of reasons to target every unit in your army. But Rippers because they control objectives while not supported with the bulk of your army are especially vulnerable. Also several cards require killing units, and rippers are the obvious target of those cards. Late Contributer - The earliest they could help you out is turn 2, but they might not arrive until turn 4. Because Maelstrom is scored every turn. A lead can become insurmountable.
I have logged lots and lots and lots of games of Mealstrom since 7th dropped. I have run every unit in the codex in more than 5. Rippers at least 20 times. hormagants probably more like 50. I can tell you that while Tyranids generally perform well in Maelstrom, rippers do not. They lack the mobility, screening, board presence, reliability, and assault ability of hormagants, and are a clearly suboptimal choice.
ETA: One key component of Maelstrom is knowing when to hold cards and when to discard them. Rippers complicate this significantly because they technically have the ability to score objectives deep behind enemy lines. If you do take rippers in pure maelstrom, I find that it is better to drop them behind your own lines unless you score multiple points for putting them behind your opponents lines.
10 Hormagants < amazing at Maelstrom
3 Rippers (DS) < not as good at Maelstrom, but you expressed a preference.
I'd have to disagree about the rippers not being as good at Maelstrom missions. It is precisely due to the flexibility of them being able to deploy almost anywhere why they are perfect for Maelstrom missions.
I generally defer to you as a more experience player of 40k, who plays in a more competitive meta, but on this one thing you are dead wrong, mainly because you are conflating the secondary component of BAO missions with Maelstrom. They are not the same. Not even close.
In Maelstrom you are playing with 6 objectives, and you are going to have to move a scoring unit from one to another, and ideally they will score one while denying others. Likewise you are going to need to deny your opponent access to all 6 objectives, because you generally don't know what cards he is going to draw. You draw and score cars on your player turn not the game turn. In that vein you have got to control the center of the board or you are going to lose. You need units that can score multiple points because final scores are in the range of 16-19. You generally have 3 or more active cards, and have to respond to all 3 of them every turn.
So lets look at advantages and disadvantages.
Hormagants
Board control - They can spread out to quickly move between multiple objectives, and score one objective while contesting another
Screening - They can provide cover saves to your army which MUST be at midfield, and cannot rely on terrain.
Bounding Leap - This lets them regularly move 13-14" Enough to put 3-4 objectives within their one turn range.
Fleet - Gives them reliable charge / run moves
Survivability - I could write paragraphs on this. Suffice to say, if you play pure Maelstrom you will see what I mean in an instant.
Tarpit - Part of board control is being able to neutralize units that can threaten your synapse such as Wraith Knights or Riptides or Dreadnoughts.
Needs Synapse - mitigated by the center board control required for Maelstrom. If you lose your synapse you are likely losing the game.
No guns
Objective Secured - You've got to be able to steal objectives that are contested by things without OS, and to continue to contest against opponents os.
Assault - several of the Maelstrom cards require that you get into assault. Gants can help support the units or break them out or eat overwatch.
Big Profile - makes them a better screening unit.
High Target Priority - Maelstrom gives opponents lots of reasons to target every unit in your army. But Hormagants because they can score so effective take alot of fire.
Contribute Early - Turn 1 Hormagants almost always get you a maelstrom point, and can reach ones that are out of range of your other units. Turn 2, if they survive they can score another.
Rippers
Deep strike - gets you 1 objective if you don't scatter, and come in on the perfect turn.
T3 3 Wound - Every army has shooting capable of killing.
Small unit size - Can't conga-line out of LOS or back to shrouding.
Limited mobility - Once they arrive they move 9" on average.
Inconsistent - Without fleet, jump, or beast the charge ranges, and run moves are not reliable, so you have to move a second unit into permission in case you roll poorly.
Objective Secured - You've got to be able to steal objectives that are contested by things without OS, and to continue to contest against opponents os.
Small profile - Easier to keep out of LOS.
No Board Presence - Not there turn 1. When they do arrive they are only 3 bases and can't spread out very far.
No guns
High Target Priority - Maelstrom gives opponents lots of reasons to target every unit in your army. But Rippers because they control objectives while not supported with the bulk of your army are especially vulnerable. Also several cards require killing units, and rippers are the obvious target of those cards.
Late Contributer - The earliest they could help you out is turn 2, but they might not arrive until turn 4. Because Maelstrom is scored every turn. A lead can become insurmountable.
I have logged lots and lots and lots of games of Mealstrom since 7th dropped. I have run every unit in the codex in more than 5. Rippers at least 20 times. hormagants probably more like 50. I can tell you that while Tyranids generally perform well in Maelstrom, rippers do not. They lack the mobility, screening, board presence, reliability, and assault ability of hormagants, and are a clearly suboptimal choice.
ETA: One key component of Maelstrom is knowing when to hold cards and when to discard them. Rippers complicate this significantly because they technically have the ability to score objectives deep behind enemy lines. If you do take rippers in pure maelstrom, I find that it is better to drop them behind your own lines unless you score multiple points for putting them behind your opponents lines.
You know, you could run both hormagants and rippers in a TAC list, just as you can run both a malanthrope as well as a zoanthrope in the same list even though they both share similar duties. Each also has its distinct advantages, however, each also complement the other. Right now, the problem with Tyranids is that they can't reach the far objectives or Maelstrom objectives that deal with being in the enemy backfield unless you want to potentially sacrifice your flyer by landing him. You could pop your mawloc up by an enemy backfield objective, but then, what if there is no enemy unit there? Then you would be wasting the offensive potential of the mawloc. Enter the ripper. He fills the niche role of being able to pop up anywhere on the field to grab these types of objectives and he cannot be contested except by other ObSec units. Why send a 140-240-pt unit to do so when a 45-pt unit would suffice. And by doing so, you won't take away anything at all from your offense. As good as hormagants are, they will have trouble getting past some enemies to reach far objectives. That doesn't make them bad. They DO have a purpose in the army and they DO contribute to it. They just don't have the tools to do some of the things that you need in your army. That's where the rippers come in. They are good in Maelstrom objectives because they can complement the army well. If anything, at least you can guarantee Linebreaker with them if you hide 1 unit in the enemy backfield. So, in short, I am not saying that rippers are the be-all-end-all of Tyranid troops. I am saying that they have a place in the army because of the flexbility with how you can play them. And it is also because of this flexibility (and mobility) that rippers have a place, both in Eternal War missions as well as Maelstrom ones.
jy2 wrote: Right now, the problem with Tyranids is that they can't reach the far objectives or Maelstrom objectives that deal with being in the enemy backfield unless you want to potentially sacrifice your flyer by landing him.
For people who play Maelstrom correctly, this becomes less of a problem because you place the objectives before you decide on deployment. Therefore, there is no way to place a maelstrom objective in you backfield. If you place it near the edge of the board, it might be in your opponents backfield. If you do go around placing objectives in the corners of the board you are insuring that the game will come down to who picks sides first, and what cards you draw, and not to player skill. The more experienced Maelstrom players tend to place the objectives roughly evenly across the board unless they are facing a very, very unfavorable matchup. A good house rule for Maelstrom is that all objectives must be placed in No-Mans-Land. It greatly decreases the randomness while increasing the players skill. About 60% of the people I play regularly have adopted this house rule, and it is a no-brainer if you wanted to run a Maelstrom tournament.
jy2 wrote: They DO have a purpose in the army and they DO contribute to it. They just don't have the tools to do some of the things that you need in your army. That's where the rippers come in. They are good in Maelstrom objectives because they can complement the army well.
So, they do exactly one thing and that makes them compliment the army well? Lack of synergy?
jy2 wrote: If anything, at least you can guarantee Linebreaker with them if you hide 1 unit in the enemy backfield.
That is worth 1 point. It is huge in games that score a maximum of 4-5 points, It is still big in BAO mission with a max score of 10, but Maelstrom games are a much higher scoring affair, and giving up the points that hormagants could generate in exchange for a single point is a bad decision.
jy2 wrote: So, in short, I am not saying that rippers are the be-all-end-all of Tyranid troops. I am saying that they have a place in the army because of the flexbility with how you can play them. And it is also because of this flexibility (and mobility) that rippers have a place, both in Eternal War missions as well as Maelstrom ones.
We've gone several rounds on this. A unit that does exactly one thing and doesn't contribute to your army in other ways is not adding flexibility. It is locking you into a specific strategy where specific units have specific tasks. That works very well in Eternal War where the goals are clear from the start. It works a tiny bit less well in BAO mission where there is a small Maelstrom component, but in a mission that is completely Maelstrom, where you don't know what you have to accomplish until the start of your turn, and every unit may be asked to contribute in various ways it is a sub-optimal choice. You can still use only rippers if you want, but it isn't your best choice. In the same way that using Genestealers aren't your best choice even though they can guarantee you a single Maelstrom point.
I generally take rippers as my 3rd troop choice when playing Maelstrom if I am taking 3 troops, because multiple of the same type of troop can become redundant, but I never take more than one group of rippers unless I'm playing eternal war, BAO, or am trying to seriously nerf myself playing Maelstrom.
I do have a list in place where I have double Dakkafexen bit it only has three troops and until my gaming club says you can't go double Cad, only ally with yourself, I am forced to take four troops
Here!'a the link-
http://www.40kambassadors.com/coverage.php Very neat format- Tyranids defeated Necrons, Chaos Space Marines, Blood Angels, and finally Space Wolves. The Tau and Eldar players faced off in the the second round- Eldar lost to Space Wolves who lost against Tyranids.
Sinful Hero wrote: Don't you only need one troop and one hq for an allied detachment? Two for your main, one for your ally makes three.
Correct however you can't take an allied detachment with the same faction as your primary IIRC in a battle forged army. I think BAO ruled against double CAD
I do have a list in place where I have double Dakkafexen bit it only has three troops and until my gaming club says you can't go double Cad, only ally with yourself, I am forced to take four troops
I think that will be a pretty good list for Eternal war. Make sure you check ahead of time to see if spawned gants are objective secured.
" Sinful Hero wrote:
Don't you only need one troop and one hq for an allied detachment? Two for your main, one for your ally makes three.
Correct however you can't take an allied detachment with the same faction as your primary IIRC in a battle forged army. I think BAO ruled against double CAD"
most places generally roll with self-ally though, because not to is kind of pants on head stupid when SM can and they're already BB with all imperial factions.
I have to agree with tag that the word flexibility is being used wrong here. I'm not sure however that I agree that Horms are better than Rippers, I think jy2 is right that both have their merits, I think Horms are SLIGHTLY better overall, but hey they cost SLIGHTLY more so it's dependant on what you can spare. Same with Terms really, rippers are just SLIGHTLY better for 5 more points a squad. I do say I rarely find myself with 20 points to blow on turning terms into Horms but often can spare 10 for rippers. But i dont think any of them are the wrong choice and all suit different players.
Alright, finally got in my game with the Deathleaper Assassin brood and I must say, it was a very good game. It was a tense and nailbiter of a game all the way to the end. We played pure Maelstrom and this was also my very first game against the new Dark Eldar.
BTW, we only played at 1275 because that was all that my opponent had brought (painted), so I had to drop a whole lot of stuff from my 1850 list to get down there. Yet I still managed to keep the formation.
The wargear that potentally upgrades power from pain is the Animus Vitia (spelling might be a bit off). It's a relic now if I remember right.
That looks like it is going to be a very one-sided fight depending on the Tyrants. If they get into the air they will probably wreck the Dark Eldar alone (DE don't like mass S6 firepower), but if they die early the Dark Eldar should have no problem cleaning up the rest of the army with superior mobility.
SHUPPET wrote: I have to agree with tag that the word flexibility is being used wrong here. I'm not sure however that I agree that Horms are better than Rippers, I think jy2 is right that both have their merits, I think Horms are SLIGHTLY better overall, but hey they cost SLIGHTLY more so it's dependant on what you can spare. Same with Terms really, rippers are just SLIGHTLY better for 5 more points a squad. I do say I rarely find myself with 20 points to blow on turning terms into Horms but often can spare 10 for rippers. But i dont think any of them are the wrong choice and all suit different players.
Hormagaunts are hands down the most overrated unit from the Tyranid codex in this thread.
Just a preview of my game and some pics of the battle. Report will be coming this weekend.
BTW, in our game, my opponent's FNP rolls were on fire. In 1 incident, I shoot 12 devourers into his unit of jetbikes. 10 wounds....and no one dies. Next turn I shoot another 12 shots into them....and only 1 dies. No wonder the game went the distance with rolls like that!
BTW (Part II), even with -1 LD from the lictors and -3 LD on his Archon from Deathleaper, my opponent DID NOT FAIL 1 SINGLE LEADERSHIP TEST!
SHUPPET wrote: I have to agree with tag that the word flexibility is being used wrong here. I'm not sure however that I agree that Horms are better than Rippers, I think jy2 is right that both have their merits, I think Horms are SLIGHTLY better overall, but hey they cost SLIGHTLY more so it's dependant on what you can spare. Same with Terms really, rippers are just SLIGHTLY better for 5 more points a squad. I do say I rarely find myself with 20 points to blow on turning terms into Horms but often can spare 10 for rippers. But i dont think any of them are the wrong choice and all suit different players.
Hormagaunts are hands down the most overrated unit from the Tyranid codex in this thread.
Care to elaborate? What makes you think they're overrated?
I agree. The only time I ever got hormagaunts into combat, they turned out to be less than spectacular (they lost the combat... with tactical marines). I wouldn't bother running them now.
SHUPPET wrote: I have to agree with tag that the word flexibility is being used wrong here. I'm not sure however that I agree that Horms are better than Rippers, I think jy2 is right that both have their merits, I think Horms are SLIGHTLY better overall, but hey they cost SLIGHTLY more so it's dependant on what you can spare. Same with Terms really, rippers are just SLIGHTLY better for 5 more points a squad. I do say I rarely find myself with 20 points to blow on turning terms into Horms but often can spare 10 for rippers. But i dont think any of them are the wrong choice and all suit different players.
Just to be clear. In Eternal war both Rippers and Termagants are better than Hormagants. In BAO Rippers are generally better because of end of game turn scoring, and the strong Eternal War component (I run 3 Rippers, and 10 Hormagants in my BAO lists). I was only saying that in Maelstrom, Hormagants are better. I have a feeling that I'm the only one that plays alot of straight Maelstrom which is a shame, but it gives me a perspective based on lots of game experience to draw this conclusion.
zerosignal wrote: I agree. The only time I ever got hormagaunts into combat, they turned out to be less than spectacular (they lost the combat... with tactical marines). I wouldn't bother running them now.
When was the last time you beat tactical marines in combat with rippers? Hormagants are not in your list to win combats they are there to score Maelstrom points. Maybe Tarpit a Wraith Knight or Riptide if they get the chance. If you are expecting them to win combat for you, you are doing something wrong.
Why the hell would anyone take hormagants rippers or terms if troop choice already filled. You need 2 minimum size squads of our crappy troops, there is so many good units in the dex, the real debate on troops is which is the lesser evil
SHUPPET wrote: I have to agree with tag that the word flexibility is being used wrong here. I'm not sure however that I agree that Horms are better than Rippers, I think jy2 is right that both have their merits, I think Horms are SLIGHTLY better overall, but hey they cost SLIGHTLY more so it's dependant on what you can spare. Same with Terms really, rippers are just SLIGHTLY better for 5 more points a squad. I do say I rarely find myself with 20 points to blow on turning terms into Horms but often can spare 10 for rippers. But i dont think any of them are the wrong choice and all suit different players.
Hormagaunts are hands down the most overrated unit from the Tyranid codex in this thread.
Care to elaborate? What makes you think they're overrated?
Keep in mind I'm talking about this thread specifically. 90% (rough estimate) of this thread seems to argue (and aggressively I might add) that Hormagaunts are our best troop choice because they're fast, screening, melee blah blah blah.... Fill your mandatory 2 troops with deepstriking rippers and be done with that slot. If you want fast, melee, screening units just take Gargoyles. I'm not saying Hormagaunts are worthless, superior to Rippers in CC or can't beat a Tac Squad. I'm just saying they're not the best.
I'd assume their popularity is coming from their pretty aesthetics which draws people to buying them which means they have to defend their purchase because if it's bad it's a bad reflection on them, which is of course untrue but people are people.
SHUPPET wrote: Why the hell would anyone take hormagants rippers or terms if troop choice already filled. You need 2 minimum size squads of our crappy troops, there is so many good units in the dex, the real debate on troops is which is the lesser evil
ductvader wrote: Unpopular opinion : I love taking 60 termagants, 2 tervigons, and 2x3 StrangleWarriors. THat's my stock troop choices.
I personally find that objectives are never hard to grab, synapse is abundant, I'm hard to kill, and combat is hard to lose.
To me, that's really more of a playstyle choice than a tactical one. It's basically our version of drop pod marines. Is it good? I think so. Is it fun to play? Not for me. Ironically Verthane also stopped using his drop pod marine army because he wasn't enjoying the playstyle either. And I mean, if you're not having fun, what are you really doing?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tag, I think also that a large part of your success with Horms is the gentleman's agreement to place objectives outside of your deployment zones. Without that, it becomes much more difficult to favor them over rippers (and to like maelstrom in general I think). That's why my group has shied away from it, but I agree with your assessment of their worth for straight maelstrom
Eldercaveman wrote: I've got a 1650 Tournament coming up in two weeks time and finally decided I'm going to use my Nids and not Necrons.
This is the list I'm thinking of running,
Hive Tyrant - 240
Hive Tyrant - 240
Malonthrope
DS Rippers x 5
DS Rippers x 5
Skyblight
Edit: Just caught part of the comp that means any compulsary parts of the FOC must be at least 75 points, so I've put the rippers up to 5 base units and I'm left with 90 points?
Solid list. Personally, I'd take a bastion with 90-pts left, but that's just me. Otherwise, consider adding more gargoyles to your skyblight.
jy2 wrote: Right now, the problem with Tyranids is that they can't reach the far objectives or Maelstrom objectives that deal with being in the enemy backfield unless you want to potentially sacrifice your flyer by landing him.
For people who play Maelstrom correctly, this becomes less of a problem because you place the objectives before you decide on deployment. Therefore, there is no way to place a maelstrom objective in you backfield. If you place it near the edge of the board, it might be in your opponents backfield. If you do go around placing objectives in the corners of the board you are insuring that the game will come down to who picks sides first, and what cards you draw, and not to player skill. The more experienced Maelstrom players tend to place the objectives roughly evenly across the board unless they are facing a very, very unfavorable matchup. A good house rule for Maelstrom is that all objectives must be placed in No-Mans-Land. It greatly decreases the randomness while increasing the players skill. About 60% of the people I play regularly have adopted this house rule, and it is a no-brainer if you wanted to run a Maelstrom tournament.
I generally place the objectives further away from the center and other objectives. That is because my armies usually have the mobility to reach these objectives and I want to make it harder for my opponents to jump from objective to objective with his forces. So even if my opponent gets the side with the objective in his backfield, then at least I know 1 unit will potentially be out of the action as he sits on that objective. Now it wouldn't be a problem for my opponent if he was running MSU. However, if he was running an Elitist army or a deathstar one, then that may potentially take a significant portion of his army out of the action as it sits on the objective.
jy2 wrote: They DO have a purpose in the army and they DO contribute to it. They just don't have the tools to do some of the things that you need in your army. That's where the rippers come in. They are good in Maelstrom objectives because they can complement the army well.
So, they do exactly one thing and that makes them compliment the army well? Lack of synergy?
They give the army tactical flexibility with how you want to approach the game. You can start them on the ground on objectives. You can teleport them down onto objectives. They allow the rest of your army to focus 100% on offense and not to have to worry about the objectives. They are annoying enough to draw away valuable resources from opponent to try to take out. In 1 game I had, my opponent spent 2 turns firing at 1 of my unit of rippers with his ravager. That's 6 S8 AP2 shots that wasn't going towards the rest of my army in an attempt to get them off of an objective. I've even used my rippers to tie up enemy units, help out in assault and even as screening units (screened out an Imperial Knight ) when I didn't need them to hold down an objective.
jy2 wrote: So, in short, I am not saying that rippers are the be-all-end-all of Tyranid troops. I am saying that they have a place in the army because of the flexbility with how you can play them. And it is also because of this flexibility (and mobility) that rippers have a place, both in Eternal War missions as well as Maelstrom ones.
We've gone several rounds on this. A unit that does exactly one thing and doesn't contribute to your army in other ways is not adding flexibility. It is locking you into a specific strategy where specific units have specific tasks. That works very well in Eternal War where the goals are clear from the start. It works a tiny bit less well in BAO mission where there is a small Maelstrom component, but in a mission that is completely Maelstrom, where you don't know what you have to accomplish until the start of your turn, and every unit may be asked to contribute in various ways it is a sub-optimal choice. You can still use only rippers if you want, but it isn't your best choice. In the same way that using Genestealers aren't your best choice even though they can guarantee you a single Maelstrom point.
I generally take rippers as my 3rd troop choice when playing Maelstrom if I am taking 3 troops, because multiple of the same type of troop can become redundant, but I never take more than one group of rippers unless I'm playing eternal war, BAO, or am trying to seriously nerf myself playing Maelstrom.
Let me rephrase my opinion. The ripper gives your army flexibility not in the sense that it is a unit that can move quickly, shoot and fight in assault. Rather, it gives your army flexibility tactically in how you need to approach the game and play each opponent. A ground-based unit like termagants and hormagants is fairly predictable. Tactically, your opponent will know approximately where they will be (unless you outflank them with Hive Commander) and can contain them or just relent your home objectives (not many armies are going to play aggressively and move towards the main Tyranid force anyways). More importantly, predictability makes their target priority much easier. Rippers, on the other hand, makes the army more unpredictable, oftentime confuses enemy target priority (should I shoot the swooping flyrant, or should I try to take out the 3 rippers on the objective) and lets you immediately position them where it would otherwise be impossible to do so with tradition ground-based units. So with rippers, not only will you get the home objectives that the main Tyranid force is already "protecting", but you can and will get the further objectives as well and while doing so, the rest of your army can continue doing what it needs to be doing without losing any efficiency at all with regards to the offense.
I generally take rippers and I have never regretted doing so in both Eternal War, Maelstrom and the BAO missions. My gargoyles can do what the hormagants do in pure Maelstrom missions, but then I also have the luxury of grabbing the far-away objectives with my rippers.
I got a 2k game in against a good buddy on Wednesday night, he brought his much feared Dark Eldar, who he has been devastating with in my area. This isn't a battle report, just some photos and a general overview of the game. Haven't got his list but mine was a bit a silly experiment...
CAD Electro Flyrant
Electro Flyrant
Malonthrope
Malonthrope
DS Rippers
DS Rippers
Living Artillery Node
Skyblight
Broodlord hunting pack.
We were playing straight up maelstrom. Both my Tyrants rolled Warp Blast and Paroxysm for their powers which I only got off one Paroxysm all game.
He got first turn so I reserved my Crone and both Harpies, as well as the rippers and the Hunting pack (outflank).
Deployment overview, Lictor infiltrated onto the objective so I could generate an extra card at the beginning of my turn.
I then roll to sieze the initiative and....
Spoiler:
Game on!
Both my Flyrants rush up and take out one of his transports, and bring the second down to 1 hull point. Biovores then pumle the unit into the ground. Gargoyles move up to tarpit his Talos for 3 full game turns!
After that it was just a case of picking off his units one by one. He Webway'd a unit WraithGuard into my backfield which had me worried, but the Exocrine tanked the DScythes and then proceeded to shoot them to pieces.
After 4 game turns all he was left with was 4 warriors locked in combat with a unit of Genestealers, about to be charged by the Broodlord's unit, two wounded Talos, tied down by a Malonthrope and this depleted Grotesque unit, who were about to take the full brunt of my shooting phase in turn 5. So with time running out and me up 14 - 7 on the points already we called it.
MVP's for the game were either the Malonthropes or the Exocrine.
luke1705 wrote: Tag, I think also that a large part of your success with Horms is the gentleman's agreement to place objectives outside of your deployment zones. Without that, it becomes much more difficult to favor them over rippers (and to like maelstrom in general I think). That's why my group has shied away from it, but I agree with your assessment of their worth for straight maelstrom
It is one of the house rules that makes accepting Maelstrom much easier for most people. One of the biggest, but least stated aspects of Maelstrom that people fear is the rules say that objectives must be placed before deployment zones are chosen. This forces people to make tactical decisions on the fly without having a pre conceived strategy like the one that JY2 is advocating. You can't lock yourself in if you can't count on your opponent cooperating during objective placement.
I think other people's lack of success with Hormagants is due to ignoring this rule or playing custom missions. Notably the BAO mission encourage objective placement in deployment zones. This was one of their key choices in their effort to save the gunline from the changes of 7th that force gunline players to participate in the movement phase.
If I am playing against you, Luke, and You place objectives randomly around the edges of the board, and I place objectives at the middle of the board, we will both be compelled to concentrate our forces toward the middle of the board, because there are move scorable/contestable objectives there than in this corner or that. As a Tyranid player, our Flyrants give us easy ability to purge objective holders in corners or along the edges of the board. I don't need a gentleman's agreement to win. I can win just fine without it. It is my opponents with a limited number of units with staying power enough to control and contest objectives that need this house rule to be successful in Maelstrom games. Especially anyone running any sort of death star, or a pricey unit like a Land Raider, Wraith Knight, or Imperial Knight. It is the deathstar players that beg for this house rule not tyranid players or MSU players.
I think overall the argument comes down to:
"I don't play pure Maelstrom, and Hormagants don't work well for me" vs "Hormagants work well in pure Maelstrom"
I don't think these positions are mutually exclusive.
jy2 wrote: Right now, the problem with Tyranids is that they can't reach the far objectives or Maelstrom objectives that deal with being in the enemy backfield unless you want to potentially sacrifice your flyer by landing him.
For people who play Maelstrom correctly, this becomes less of a problem because you place the objectives before you decide on deployment. Therefore, there is no way to place a maelstrom objective in you backfield. If you place it near the edge of the board, it might be in your opponents backfield. If you do go around placing objectives in the corners of the board you are insuring that the game will come down to who picks sides first, and what cards you draw, and not to player skill. The more experienced Maelstrom players tend to place the objectives roughly evenly across the board unless they are facing a very, very unfavorable matchup. A good house rule for Maelstrom is that all objectives must be placed in No-Mans-Land. It greatly decreases the randomness while increasing the players skill. About 60% of the people I play regularly have adopted this house rule, and it is a no-brainer if you wanted to run a Maelstrom tournament.
I generally place the objectives further away from the center and other objectives. That is because my armies usually have the mobility to reach these objectives and I want to make it harder for my opponents to jump from objective to objective with his forces. So even if my opponent gets the side with the objective in his backfield, then at least I know 1 unit will potentially be out of the action as he sits on that objective. Now it wouldn't be a problem for my opponent if he was running MSU. However, if he was running an Elitist army or a deathstar one, then that may potentially take a significant portion of his army out of the action as it sits on the objective.
You would regret this strategy very much if you played pure maelstrom. If your opponent doesn't cooperate, You are essentially giving your opponent 1 or 2 objectives in their deployment zone, and then giving them the ability to control the middle of the board and all of the objectives they place there. Basically you are giving them the chance to easily score 2/3 of all objectives, while you only get to score 1/3 of them, and since the objectives that need to be scored are random, this problem is magnified.
jy2 wrote: I generally take rippers and I have never regretted doing so in both Eternal War, Maelstrom and the BAO missions. My gargoyles can do what the hormagants do in pure Maelstrom missions, but then I also have the luxury of grabbing the far-away objectives with my rippers.
1) How many times have you played pure Maelstrom? Have you ever played Maelstrom against a player who has played it more than 20 times? 2) Gargoyles can do much of what hormagants can do. Rippers cannot. I would never advocate taking Hormagants rather than gargoyles. Unfortunately gargoyles aren't troops, and so to run a legal army we need to take a minimum number of troops. Hormagants can contribute in Maelstrom games much, much more than rippers can. Since we are generally taking a minimum number of troops, we might as well take ones that can contribute the maximum.
Its a large, 7 round Nova style tournament. Tyranids can ally with themselves with no FW allowed.
If its one thing I learned from this past weekend at Mechanicon, its that while I love Carnifexes, I dont love slow units. In 5 games they were able to shoot collectively about 3 times. Charge twice when it mattered.
I know it depends on the matchup, but Im thinking about filling the missing 4th Tyrant with Crones.
Allied:
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Ripper w/DS 30 Gargoyles
Thats 60 gargoyles, 3 tyrants to alpha select units, 4 rippers scoring, two crones hitting vector strikes and carrying xenos off the board (with storm talon and night scythe deterrent) and extra venomthropes for Tau SMS to kill. What say you?
Sinful Hero wrote: @SHUPPET
A little while ago you mentioned you were working on a unit analysis- how's that coming along?
I haven't had barely any time and the work I did put into it has taken a lot longer than I thought it would. I don't want it to turn into a pipedream, but I may have to rethink what I'm setting out to achieve here.
Sinful Hero wrote: @SHUPPET
A little while ago you mentioned you were working on a unit analysis- how's that coming along?
I haven't had barely any time and the work I did put into it has taken a lot longer than I thought it would. I don't want it to turn into a pipedream, but I may have to rethink what I'm setting out to achieve here.
I'm sorry to hear that- I was quite looking forward to it! Perhaps you could scale it back, and just cover the high and low points of each unit I a few sentences?
Honestly I would be interested to see an analysis from everyone in the thread. The one in the OP might also need some slight updating, or at least a review now that some experience with the codex has been had.
Well, that's my issue and the conundrum I currently face. If I cut it back to information that only I deem important, then if may as well just write the guide myself. There's no real way to filter either which is the real issue. No point in compiling community written guide if I'm only building from certain posts made by the community, otherwise it's pointless.
I think I might make a guide and just try to make it as unbiased as possible sharing all the views and counter views to a unit.
Sinful Hero wrote: Don't you only need one troop and one hq for an allied detachment? Two for your main, one for your ally makes three.
Correct however you can't take an allied detachment with the same faction as your primary IIRC in a battle forged army. I think BAO ruled against double CAD
That is true. According to RAW, your allied detachment cannot be from the same faction.
However, the BAO, Nova and Adepticon all ruled that you can self-ally but cannot take dual-CAD and most of the smaller tourneys will follow this standard. So make sure to check with the tournament beforehand how they would rule this.
I think that it is too much potatoes (infiltrating units) and not enough meat (actual, offensive units). Good luck trying to infiltrate all those units in any type of deployment that makes sense.
Strat_N8 wrote: The wargear that potentally upgrades power from pain is the Animus Vitia (spelling might be a bit off). It's a relic now if I remember right.
That looks like it is going to be a very one-sided fight depending on the Tyrants. If they get into the air they will probably wreck the Dark Eldar alone (DE don't like mass S6 firepower), but if they die early the Dark Eldar should have no problem cleaning up the rest of the army with superior mobility.
Thanks, Strat.
It actually turned out to be a very close game (or at least much closer than I expected).
Iechine wrote: Id take Gargoyles over hormagants any day, if troop choice requirement is already fulfilled.
Hear ye hear ye....
ductvader wrote: Unpopular opinion : I love taking 60 termagants, 2 tervigons, and 2x3 StrangleWarriors. THat's my stock troop choices.
I personally find that objectives are never hard to grab, synapse is abundant, I'm hard to kill, and combat is hard to lose.
Nothing wrong with that. It is a different playstyle than the Maximum Threat Overload types of lists that are common nowadays. It's strengths is mainly in its ground presence and the durability of its troops. However, it does suffer from lack of mobility as well as its offensive capabilities (that usually is the case with "tarpit" armies - they are better in locking down the enemy than in actually killing it).
Eldercaveman wrote: I got a 2k game in against a good buddy on Wednesday night, he brought his much feared Dark Eldar, who he has been devastating with in my area. This isn't a battle report, just some photos and a general overview of the game. Haven't got his list but mine was a bit a silly experiment...
CAD Electro Flyrant
Electro Flyrant
Malonthrope
Malonthrope
DS Rippers
DS Rippers
Living Artillery Node
Skyblight
Broodlord hunting pack.
We were playing straight up maelstrom. Both my Tyrants rolled Warp Blast and Paroxysm for their powers which I only got off one Paroxysm all game.
He got first turn so I reserved my Crone and both Harpies, as well as the rippers and the Hunting pack (outflank).
Deployment overview, Lictor infiltrated onto the objective so I could generate an extra card at the beginning of my turn.
Eldarcaveman,
Thanks for sharing.
I will post a link to your batrep in the opening thread on p.1.
tag8833 wrote: You would regret this strategy very much if you played pure maelstrom. If your opponent doesn't cooperate, You are essentially giving your opponent 1 or 2 objectives in their deployment zone, and then giving them the ability to control the middle of the board and all of the objectives they place there. Basically you are giving them the chance to easily score 2/3 of all objectives, while you only get to score 1/3 of them, and since the objectives that need to be scored are random, this problem is magnified.
You do realize that you adjust your objectives depending on what type of army you play against, right? If I go up against a gunline-type army with low mobility, then I place the objectives near the center (or how you would normally do it) and then dare to move towards the objectives where my army will be advancing. If I go up against elitist or deathstar armies, then I spread out the objectives as those types of armies generally have problem moving around due to having fewer units.
Now here's the difference when implementing hormagant troops compared to ripper troops. Place the objectives far and your ground-based troops won't be able to reach them. With ground-based troops, you are forced to centralize the objectives and that becomes problematic when going up against armies who can control the board better than our bugs (imperial knights, daemons, orks, wraithwing necrons, deathstars, etc.). However, ripper troops have no problem. It allows you to adjust your playstyle on the fly against both types of armies because no matter where you place the objectives, you can still reach it and without sacrificing any of your offense. That is what I call tactical flexibility.
1) How many times have you played pure Maelstrom? Have you ever played Maelstrom against a player who has played it more than 20 times?
2) Gargoyles can do much of what hormagants can do. Rippers cannot. I would never advocate taking Hormagants rather than gargoyles. Unfortunately gargoyles aren't troops, and so to run a legal army we need to take a minimum number of troops. Hormagants can contribute in Maelstrom games much, much more than rippers can. Since we are generally taking a minimum number of troops, we might as well take ones that can contribute the maximum.
1. I've only played my bugs in about a handful of times in Maelstrom missions. However, I've played pure Maelstrom about 15-20 times with all my armies combined (including Necrons, Eldar, Daemons and Space Marines). I am very familiar with what it takes to succeed in Maelstrom-style missions - mobility, flexibility and oftentimes, a lot of luck when drawing the cards.
2. If it works for you, then that's fine. I've got nothing against taking hormagants in Maelstrom missions. Still, that doesn't mean that they are better than rippers in pure Maelstrom. Although they share some of the same qualities (scoring, ObSec unit), they actually serve somewhat different roles. Rippers give you the flexbility to adjust your playstyle depending on what type of army you go up against and without sacrificing any of your offense in doing so. They also allow you to reach far-away objectives that you normally couldn't, at least not without losing efficiency in your offensive machine. Hormagants play more of a offensive and defensive (screening, tarpitting) role in the army. It is just like having a malanthrope and a zoanthrope in the army. Sure, they both provide synapse. However, zoanthropes also help to beef up the army on the psychic front. The two units doesn't always compete with each other. Oftentimes, they can be used to complement each other.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iechine wrote: So I may be able to attend this GT next weekend
Its a large, 7 round Nova style tournament. Tyranids can ally with themselves with no FW allowed.
If its one thing I learned from this past weekend at Mechanicon, its that while I love Carnifexes, I dont love slow units. In 5 games they were able to shoot collectively about 3 times. Charge twice when it mattered.
I know it depends on the matchup, but Im thinking about filling the missing 4th Tyrant with Crones.
Allied:
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Ripper w/DS 30 Gargoyles
Thats 60 gargoyles, 3 tyrants to alpha select units, 4 rippers scoring, two crones hitting vector strikes and carrying xenos off the board (with storm talon and night scythe deterrent) and extra venomthropes for Tau SMS to kill. What say you?
You've already got almost all the components for Skyblight so why not just run it? Harpies actually aren't that bad and can be made usable. Besides, what's better than 60 gargoyles? 60 recyclable gargoyles! BTW, if you run skyblight, you can drop 1 unit of rippers (and some gargoyles) plust swap out 1 of your hive crones to get 2 harpies.
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
Zoanthrope
Ripper w/DS Ripper w/DS Ripper w/DS Mawloc
Allied:
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Crone
Harpy w/TL-HVC Harpy w/TL-HVC 16 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
I'm just curious what people think is the best 4 Flyrant list. Like, aside from the Flyrants, what is the best thing you would include with the limited amount of remaining points? I've seen some with Living Artillery, others just pumping the remaining points in Dakkafexes, I've seen something that looked like a mish mash of everything including units from both the above 2 lists, Gargoyles, and Mawlocs, maybe it was for balanced coverage. Just wondering what people think is the best use of the points after the Flyrants and WHY.
tag8833 wrote: You would regret this strategy very much if you played pure maelstrom. If your opponent doesn't cooperate, You are essentially giving your opponent 1 or 2 objectives in their deployment zone, and then giving them the ability to control the middle of the board and all of the objectives they place there. Basically you are giving them the chance to easily score 2/3 of all objectives, while you only get to score 1/3 of them, and since the objectives that need to be scored are random, this problem is magnified.
You do realize that you adjust your objectives depending on what type of army you play against, right? If I go up against a gunline-type army with low mobility, then I place the objectives near the center (or how you would normally do it) and then dare to move towards the objectives where my army will be advancing. If I go up against elitist or deathstar armies, then I spread out the objectives as those types of armies generally have problem moving around due to having fewer units.
You spread them out, but not so far that you can't get to them. Against a deathstar you are giving up one objective a turn. You can't stop them, maybe slow them down with a wall of Gants or gargoyles. You've got to outscore them, that means having multiple units capable of scoring multiple objectives every turn in case those cards come up. Hormagants can do that every single turn. Rippers can only do that on the turn they come in. Also Hormagants are great at stealing objectives from deathstars because most deathstars aren't OS.
jy2 wrote: Now here's the difference when implementing hormagant troops compared to ripper troops. Place the objectives far and your ground-based troops won't be able to reach them. With ground-based troops, you are forced to centralize the objectives and that becomes problematic when going up against armies who can control the board better than our bugs (imperial knights, daemons, orks, wraithwing necrons, deathstars, etc.). However, ripper troops have no problem. It allows you to adjust your playstyle on the fly against both types of armies because no matter where you place the objectives, you can still reach it and without sacrificing any of your offense. That is what I call tactical flexibility.
Hormagants average a 13.25" move. They have a deployment range that includes 1/4 of the board. They can basically get anywhere on the board in 2 turns except for deep in the opponent's deployment zone. Rippers have a similar range of mobility on turn 2 (if they happen to come in). You can drop them deep in the opponents deployment zone if you want, but generally they aren't going to accomplish much doing that. Once rippers are on the board, they average a 9.5" move (less than the minimum distance between 2 objectives). Significantly less, and they move that far much less reliably because they lack fleet. So by turn 3, Hormagants have been able to cover more ground than rippers, and that is without using any charge shenanigan. So if your goal is to reach distant tactical objectives, Hormagants are better able to accomplish it than rippers.
If you goal is to camp a single objective. Rippers are your better choice because you can keep them out of LOS easier, and they don't need babysitting as bad. That is why Rippers are all stars in Eternal war, and other low scoring formats.
I think of Hormagants as slightly inferior gargoyles. 13.25" move vs 15.5" move. +1 attack, OS, -1 PPM, but no blind, HOW or shooting. If gargoyles could fill your troop requirement it would be all gargoyles all of the time. My question to you is, would you take rippers over gargoyles in Maelstrom?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: I'm just curious what people think is the best 4 Flyrant list. Like, aside from the Flyrants, what is the best thing you would include with the limited amount of remaining points? I've seen some with Living Artillery, others just pumping the remaining points in Dakkafexes, I've seen something that looked like a mish mash of everything including units from both the above 2 lists, Gargoyles, and Mawlocs, maybe it was for balanced coverage. Just wondering what people think is the best use of the points after the Flyrants and WHY.
If you are doubling down so much on air power, you probably should look at Crones with extra points of which there won't be many. 4 Flyrants w/ 4 DS Rippers is 1140 points.
tag8833 wrote: You would regret this strategy very much if you played pure maelstrom. If your opponent doesn't cooperate, You are essentially giving your opponent 1 or 2 objectives in their deployment zone, and then giving them the ability to control the middle of the board and all of the objectives they place there. Basically you are giving them the chance to easily score 2/3 of all objectives, while you only get to score 1/3 of them, and since the objectives that need to be scored are random, this problem is magnified.
You do realize that you adjust your objectives depending on what type of army you play against, right? If I go up against a gunline-type army with low mobility, then I place the objectives near the center (or how you would normally do it) and then dare to move towards the objectives where my army will be advancing. If I go up against elitist or deathstar armies, then I spread out the objectives as those types of armies generally have problem moving around due to having fewer units.
You spread them out, but not so far that you can't get to them. Against a deathstar you are giving up one objective a turn. You can't stop them, maybe slow them down with a wall of Gants or gargoyles. You've got to outscore them, that means having multiple units capable of scoring multiple objectives every turn in case those cards come up. Hormagants can do that every single turn. Rippers can only do that on the turn they come in. Also Hormagants are great at stealing objectives from deathstars because most deathstars aren't OS.
jy2 wrote: Now here's the difference when implementing hormagant troops compared to ripper troops. Place the objectives far and your ground-based troops won't be able to reach them. With ground-based troops, you are forced to centralize the objectives and that becomes problematic when going up against armies who can control the board better than our bugs (imperial knights, daemons, orks, wraithwing necrons, deathstars, etc.). However, ripper troops have no problem. It allows you to adjust your playstyle on the fly against both types of armies because no matter where you place the objectives, you can still reach it and without sacrificing any of your offense. That is what I call tactical flexibility.
Hormagants average a 13.25" move. They have a deployment range that includes 1/4 of the board. They can basically get anywhere on the board in 2 turns except for deep in the opponent's deployment zone. Rippers have a similar range of mobility on turn 2 (if they happen to come in). You can drop them deep in the opponents deployment zone if you want, but generally they aren't going to accomplish much doing that. Once rippers are on the board, they average a 9.5" move (less than the minimum distance between 2 objectives). Significantly less, and they move that far much less reliably because they lack fleet. So by turn 3, Hormagants have been able to cover more ground than rippers, and that is without using any charge shenanigan. So if your goal is to reach distant tactical objectives, Hormagants are better able to accomplish it than rippers.
If you goal is to camp a single objective. Rippers are your better choice because you can keep them out of LOS easier, and they don't need babysitting as bad. That is why Rippers are all stars in Eternal war, and other low scoring formats.
I think of Hormagants as slightly inferior gargoyles. 13.25" move vs 15.5" move. +1 attack, OS, -1 PPM, but no blind, HOW or shooting. If gargoyles could fill your troop requirement it would be all gargoyles all of the time. My question to you is, would you take rippers over gargoyles in Maelstrom?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: I'm just curious what people think is the best 4 Flyrant list. Like, aside from the Flyrants, what is the best thing you would include with the limited amount of remaining points? I've seen some with Living Artillery, others just pumping the remaining points in Dakkafexes, I've seen something that looked like a mish mash of everything including units from both the above 2 lists, Gargoyles, and Mawlocs, maybe it was for balanced coverage. Just wondering what people think is the best use of the points after the Flyrants and WHY.
If you are doubling down so much on air power, you probably should look at Crones with extra points of which there won't be many. 4 Flyrants w/ 4 DS Rippers is 1140 points.
I'd rather take 2 min squads of Rippers with DS over Homagaunts every day of the week. Gargoyles are far superior and the points I saved on not spending it on crappy Hormagaunts can be used for them.
So what does everyone think of the Toxicrene and the Maleceptor? They both seem powersful. I'm leaning toward building the Toxicrene first, it seems like a great unit that may be useful in killing terminators, and riptides/wraithknights.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What do you guys think of this semi-competitive list? I face mostly Spave Wolves, but others as well.
This is for 1850.
2x Hive Tyrants with 2x Breainleech + Electrogrubs
jy2 wrote:
You've already got almost all the components for Skyblight so why not just run it? Harpies actually aren't that bad and can be made usable. Besides, what's better than 60 gargoyles? 60 recyclable gargoyles! BTW, if you run skyblight, you can drop 1 unit of rippers (and some gargoyles) plust swap out 1 of your hive crones to get 2 harpies.
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
Zoanthrope
Ripper w/DS Ripper w/DS Ripper w/DS Mawloc
Allied:
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Crone
Harpy w/TL-HVC Harpy w/TL-HVC 16 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
To be honest, the main reason is I own two crones and 1 harpy, and with less than a week to go I'd have to order a harpy and paint it in addition to already having to buy/paint 20 more gargoyles and do an entirely new display board while going to work full time. So Im
trying to work with what I've got to chose from at home.
SHUPPET wrote:I'm just curious what people think is the best 4 Flyrant list. Like, aside from the Flyrants, what is the best thing you would include with the limited amount of remaining points? I've seen some with Living Artillery, others just pumping the remaining points in Dakkafexes, I've seen something that looked like a mish mash of everything including units from both the above 2 lists, Gargoyles, and Mawlocs, maybe it was for balanced coverage. Just wondering what people think is the best use of the points after the Flyrants and WHY.
I will say from my experience last weekend that I wish I had had Crones on the table, at least one, in place of a Dakkafex. And more Gargoyles. The 30 garg tarpit always had a use, even against the mechanized IG list, and while the 4 flyrants shredded all vehicles from landraiders to leman russes, there were often times when a S8 vector strike would have gone a long long way, in addition to their flamers. I LOVE the Dakkafex, its just slow enough to maybe see use where it matters for turns 3-5. Crones, while somewhat sucky, in my opinion would have augmented the flyrants and made them even more effective.
Zande4 wrote: I'd rather take 2 min squads of Rippers with DS over Homagaunts every day of the week. Gargoyles are far superior and the points I saved on not spending it on crappy Hormagaunts can be used for them.
1) You save 5 points per squad taking rippers over Hormagants. That is almost enough to buy 1 more gargoyle.
2) You didn't answer my question. If gargoyles were troops would you take them over rippers in Maelstrom?
3) What do you consider the main difference between Gargoyles and Hormagants that make Gargoyles "far superior" and Hormagants "crappy". The 2.25" per turn difference in movement? That does it for me, even with OS, and fleet, 2.25" per turn is significant.
Noctem wrote: So what does everyone think of the Toxicrene and the Maleceptor? They both seem powersful. I'm leaning toward building the Toxicrene first, it seems like a great unit that may be useful in killing terminators, and riptides/wraithknights.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What do you guys think of this semi-competitive list? I face mostly Spave Wolves, but others as well.
This is for 1850.
2x Hive Tyrants with 2x Breainleech + Electrogrubs
2x Carnifex with 2x Brainleech
1x Mawloc
1x Toxicrene
Thoughts? It is 4 points over though...
What models do you have access to? You might replace to Zope/Vope for a Malanthrope to save a few points to bring you back under 1850. If you really like the Toxicrene why not double down on them? Drop the Mawloc and a few termagants and you should have enough for another.
Keep in mind I'm talking about this thread specifically. 90% (rough estimate) of this thread seems to argue (and aggressively I might add) that Hormagaunts are our best troop choice because they're fast, screening, melee blah blah blah.... Fill your mandatory 2 troops with deepstriking rippers and be done with that slot. If you want fast, melee, screening units just take Gargoyles. I'm not saying Hormagaunts are worthless, superior to Rippers in CC or can't beat a Tac Squad. I'm just saying they're not the best.
I don't think anyone is trying to say they are the "best" of our fodder creatures, just they are the best available in troops. It ultimately comes down to what you are going to use your troops for. As a pure objective sitter Rippers are better, but Hormagaunts offer more tactical options (screening, tarpitting) and offer better threat saturation with Gargoyles (both units have the same defensive stats, so draw the same sort of fire - Rippers are S6+ bait while S5 or lower goes to Gargoyles).
I'd also add, Hormagaunts do have a few situational advantages over Gargoyles to keep in mind. Move Through Cover and innate Fleet being the main one, but their I5 and extra attack are also helpful in certain match-ups as well.
SHUPPET wrote: Can someone explain to me how Harpies aren't bad?
1. They are dirt cheap for a flyer and the outright cheapest flying monstrous creature in the game.
2. Second most points per wound efficient monstrous creature in our codex, after the Mawloc (27 points per wound on the Harpy vs 23 for the Mawloc) and more points per T5 wound efficient than the Malanthrope (28 points per wound).
3. Sonic Screech is probably one of the best tools we have for combating Knights without being forced to play passively. It allows our armor-cracking monsters to actually get their swings in and wreck the things before taking return blows.
4. Source of accurate S9 firepower if desired (say vs necrons for popping quantum shielding).
It really is a matter of playstyle preference though. The Harpy is ultimately a force multiplier for melee-leaning units (either via pinning, free sporemines for overwatch, or sonic screech), so if you don't really have a melee presence it looses half of its functionality.
Noctem wrote: So what does everyone think of the Toxicrene and the Maleceptor?
Toxicrene should be useable (will need gaunt support to catch things), but the Maleceptor is sadly going to be more of a detriment than a help most of the time (fragile for its cost, very unreliable psychic power, low damage).
SHUPPET wrote: Can someone explain to me how Harpies aren't bad?
He's not bad in the sense that if you must take him (a la Skyblight), then you might as well make the best out of it. Though he isn't great in any 1 category (except movement), he can contribute to an army:
1. Anti-tank with reliable S9 shooting.
2. Anti-infantry with spore mines.
3. Supplements assault nids with reducing enemy Initiative and generating spore mines to soak up Overwatch.
4. A 5W T5 4+/4+ cover sacrificial lamb to potentially draw enemy fire. Hey, better him than your flyrant, right?
5. Movement blockers due to his large base, especially when used with another Skyblight harpy in tandem (and/or with hive crone as well). You can form a pretty big wall with 3 large oval bases as long as you position them correctly (i.e. such that the enemy unit will end their move within 1" of their bases).
6. This is probably his biggest asset - his mobility. Despite all of his shortcomings, he is still a highly mobile unit that can be used to grab/contest objectives at the end of the game.
Noctem wrote: So what does everyone think of the Toxicrene and the Maleceptor? They both seem powersful. I'm leaning toward building the Toxicrene first, it seems like a great unit that may be useful in killing terminators, and riptides/wraithknights.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What do you guys think of this semi-competitive list? I face mostly Spave Wolves, but others as well.
This is for 1850.
2x Hive Tyrants with 2x Breainleech + Electrogrubs
Shrikes provide synapse as well, but I get when you mean cyber!
Sinful HeroI hadn't thought of adding a second Toxicrene by dropping the Mawloc and a few terms to add another Toxicrene. Seems pretty brutal!
The only other models I have besides these are Haruspex, 2 more brain-leech dev carnifexes, 1 more zoanthrope, and LoD models like scytal Hierodule and Harridan. Also have 40 Hormagaunts.
SHUPPET wrote: I'm just curious what people think is the best 4 Flyrant list. Like, aside from the Flyrants, what is the best thing you would include with the limited amount of remaining points? I've seen some with Living Artillery, others just pumping the remaining points in Dakkafexes, I've seen something that looked like a mish mash of everything including units from both the above 2 lists, Gargoyles, and Mawlocs, maybe it was for balanced coverage. Just wondering what people think is the best use of the points after the Flyrants and WHY.
Well, in our meta (and most tournament metas here in the US as well), you can't take more than 2 detachments. Thus, no 4 flyrants + Living Artillery.
Personally for me, I like to take a list that is flexible and unpredictable. My lists usually have a very small core that starts on the table. The rest is either very fast or gives me the flexibility to position them almost anywhere where my forces need. Thus, the units I tend to run include:
Malanthrope (the foundation of my ground forces)
Deepstriking rippers
Mawlocs
Bastion
Beyond that, I sometimes interchange between the following units with my left-over points:
Dimachaeron
Gargoyles (usually goes with my Dimachaeron list)
Hive Crone
Dakkafexes
Biovores
Mission was a special sort of kill points: you nominated the two most expensive models in your army and they were worth 3 VP each. On my side, this was both Flyrants, on his side the Chapter Master and his Dreadnaught (super heavies were excluded). Line breaker and first blood were in effect as well.
Just the highlights of the game:
- even though I went first, I castled up around the Malanthrope first turn, to limit the damage his Alfa strike could do. This worked fairly well, even so Orbital Bombardment took out half of my LAN turn 1! A drop pod with Marines came into my deployment zone and killed 2 Shrikes. Due to some crappy saving on my part, the Flyrant Warlord took 3 wounds in turn 1 as well.
- in my turn 2 all Mawlocs refused to show up and only one Ripper did, and they misshaped back into reserves! Things started to get better however, when both Flyrants swooped up and forced a panic test on his Biker unit, causing them to flee the table, including his Chapter Master! I had that Warlord trait where everything with 12" on my warlord has to test on its lowest Ld. and it payed off big time here. The Crone swooped up as well and blocked the Knight, forcing him to go round, as well as stripping a hull point with a Tentaclid.
- turn 3 saw more drop pods with Marines and Dreadnaughts coming down, but apart from the Shrikes, not much damage was incurred. His Storm Talon unloaded on the Crone, forcing him to jink. The Land Speeders tried to strip the last wound from my warlord, but a lucky jink made him survive as well. In return, the Crone Vector Struck the Storm Talon, blowing it up and the Flyrant warlord killed a Speeder with his Vector Strike and flew off. Mawlocs came in, but scattered. In the Tyranids deployment zone, both squads of Marines were being engaged by the Malanthrope and the remnants of the LAN and the Shrikes, slowly whittling them down.
- turn 4, the Knight charged a Mawloc and ripped it in two! Was the only highlight for the Marines however, as they were dying everywhere. The warlord came back in and blew up the Dreadnaught. The Crone went gliding and stripped another hull point off the Knight from afar. The other Flyrant stripped two hull points off as well.
- turn 5 left only the Knight (on 1 hull point) and a drop pod alive, at which point we called it. Bug victory!
What have we we learned?
- Shrikes hit hard, but are just too squishy to keep alive. You could use them as a backfield protector, but seems wasteful to me. They are out.
- I love my Mawlocs but they really did nothing here. Since this is supposed to be a tournament list, and I want some reliability, I'll probably ditch the as well.
Based on that, what's your opinion of the next iteration of the list?
-- CAD Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
30 Termagants Scuttling Swarm Tervigon
1 Malanthrope
Hive Crone
-- CAD Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
tag8833 wrote: You spread them out, but not so far that you can't get to them. Against a deathstar you are giving up one objective a turn. You can't stop them, maybe slow them down with a wall of Gants or gargoyles. You've got to outscore them, that means having multiple units capable of scoring multiple objectives every turn in case those cards come up. Hormagants can do that every single turn. Rippers can only do that on the turn they come in. Also Hormagants are great at stealing objectives from deathstars because most deathstars aren't OS.
One thing I find is that against deathstars or more aggressive assault lists, your gribblies ( termies, hormies and gargoyles) will usually never get pass the middle. That is because you need them to fight against these units/armies. You need to use them either as screening units, tarpitting units or just to help out in assault. Thus, while ideally, you want them to go after the objectives, the reality is that usually, you can't because you need them to help stave off these types of armies. Now you may steal 1 objective point on the turn you screen out/assault, but your screening unit shouldn't live very long beyond that.
However, rippers are highly useful against these types of armies because:
1. Deathstars have problems moving around. They cannot be in multiple places at the same time so in most cases, they will ignore your ripper troops. Of course you will have to help support your rippers with flyrants but against deathstar armies, my strategy 90% of the time is to take out the support units anyways.
2. If the deathstar does go after the rippers, then they lose board control and you can push your army up the middle.
3. Against assault based armies, they will have to split up their offense if they want to go after your ripper troops. Say, for example, you go up against 50 daemonettes. You then drop 2 units of rippers on separate objectives. Now your opponent needs to either 1) ignore them and let you continue potentially claiming points for them or 2) send 20 daemonettes after them and now your main force only has to deal with 30 daemonettes instead of 50. The point is, it dilutes the strength of your opponent's army. Either he gives up those points/objectives or he breaks up his forces going after them, thus making his army slightly easier to deal with.
Hormagants average a 13.25" move. They have a deployment range that includes 1/4 of the board. They can basically get anywhere on the board in 2 turns except for deep in the opponent's deployment zone. Rippers have a similar range of mobility on turn 2 (if they happen to come in). You can drop them deep in the opponents deployment zone if you want, but generally they aren't going to accomplish much doing that. Once rippers are on the board, they average a 9.5" move (less than the minimum distance between 2 objectives). Significantly less, and they move that far much less reliably because they lack fleet. So by turn 3, Hormagants have been able to cover more ground than rippers, and that is without using any charge shenanigan. So if your goal is to reach distant tactical objectives, Hormagants are better able to accomplish it than rippers.
If you goal is to camp a single objective. Rippers are your better choice because you can keep them out of LOS easier, and they don't need babysitting as bad. That is why Rippers are all stars in Eternal war, and other low scoring formats.
I think of Hormagants as slightly inferior gargoyles. 13.25" move vs 15.5" move. +1 attack, OS, -1 PPM, but no blind, HOW or shooting. If gargoyles could fill your troop requirement it would be all gargoyles all of the time. My question to you is, would you take rippers over gargoyles in Maelstrom?
Again, that is being idealistic. In many games, you won't be able to get them past the middle, no matter how fast they can move. Play against the more aggressive armies and they will never get pass the middle. You need them to stay with and to protect your main forces less they get overrun. They will only ever be able to take objectives on your side. Play against drop pod armies and they probably won't even be able to really leave their deployment zones!
The only time they can advance is if you are playing against a less aggressive army (or a mainly shooty one) which prefers to stay away from yours.
You've already got almost all the components for Skyblight so why not just run it? Harpies actually aren't that bad and can be made usable. Besides, what's better than 60 gargoyles? 60 recyclable gargoyles! BTW, if you run skyblight, you can drop 1 unit of rippers (and some gargoyles) plust swap out 1 of your hive crones to get 2 harpies.
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
Zoanthrope
Ripper w/DS Ripper w/DS Ripper w/DS Mawloc
Allied:
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Crone
Harpy w/TL-HVC Harpy w/TL-HVC 16 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
To be honest, the main reason is I own two crones and 1 harpy, and with less than a week to go I'd have to order a harpy and paint it in addition to already having to buy/paint 20 more gargoyles and do an entirely new display board while going to work full time. So Im trying to work with what I've got to chose from at home.
No worries, though I'm not sure what you mean by buy/paint 20 more gargoyles. Your original list had 60 gargoyles. The one I am recommending only runs 46.
3) What do you consider the main difference between Gargoyles and Hormagants that make Gargoyles "far superior" and Hormagants "crappy". The 2.25" per turn difference in movement? That does it for me, even with OS, and fleet, 2.25" per turn is significant.
Sorry, but I am not seeing how you get the 2.25" difference. Isn't the Hormagant run move take the highest of 3D6 (or am I getting this wrong)? How are you getting 13.25" for his movement again?
Its a large, 7 round Nova style tournament. Tyranids can ally with themselves with no FW allowed.
If its one thing I learned from this past weekend at Mechanicon, its that while I love Carnifexes, I dont love slow units. In 5 games they were able to shoot collectively about 3 times. Charge twice when it mattered.
I know it depends on the matchup, but Im thinking about filling the missing 4th Tyrant with Crones.
Allied:
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Ripper w/DS 30 Gargoyles
Thats 60 gargoyles, 3 tyrants to alpha select units, 4 rippers scoring, two crones hitting vector strikes and carrying xenos off the board (with storm talon and night scythe deterrent) and extra venomthropes for Tau SMS to kill. What say you?
I don't blame you for liking Speed. But you can put Adrenals on your Carnifexen. I like to, but I often feel constrained by the budget.
What you have looks very nice. While Tau find Veno's amusing, nobody else does. How are you planning to run the Gargoyles? big Broods of x30?
Sorry, but I am not seeing how you get the 2.25" difference. Isn't the Hormagant run move take the highest of 3D6 (or am I getting this wrong)? How are you getting 13.25" for his movement again?
No, they run D6 +3'' (with fleet), so at worst they always get a 4 inch run.
beardman3000 wrote: I am sure this has been said but I can not find it... how do you advise to beat spacewolves ? we will be playing maelstrom and I know he has :
Njall
group of wolf guard terminators with Arjac,
several longfangs or grey hunters
Thunderwolf (maybe?)
venerable dreadnought
and a landraider
this is all I can remember from memory
Kill his mobility. That means the landraider (with electroshock grubs, it shouldn't be too hard) and the thunderwolves. Then kill his troops. Ignore his mini-deathstar and just screen them out with gants or feed them sacrificial units.
You need mobility in your army so make sure you take some mobile units - flyrants, rippers, mawlocs, gargoyles and even the hive crone. The trick is to take out his mobility while retaining your own.
Sorry, but I am not seeing how you get the 2.25" difference. Isn't the Hormagant run move take the highest of 3D6 (or am I getting this wrong)? How are you getting 13.25" for his movement again?
No, they run D6 +3'' (with fleet), so at worst they always get a 4 inch run.
Ok, thanks. It's obvious that I haven't ran my hormagants for quite some time.
Mission was a special sort of kill points: you nominated the two most expensive models in your army and they were worth 3 VP each. On my side, this was both Flyrants, on his side the Chapter Master and his Dreadnaught (super heavies were excluded). Line breaker and first blood were in effect as well.
Just the highlights of the game:
- even though I went first, I castled up around the Malanthrope first turn, to limit the damage his Alfa strike could do. This worked fairly well, even so Orbital Bombardment took out half of my LAN turn 1! A drop pod with Marines came into my deployment zone and killed 2 Shrikes. Due to some crappy saving on my part, the Flyrant Warlord took 3 wounds in turn 1 as well.
- in my turn 2 all Mawlocs refused to show up and only one Ripper did, and they misshaped back into reserves! Things started to get better however, when both Flyrants swooped up and forced a panic test on his Biker unit, causing them to flee the table, including his Chapter Master! I had that Warlord trait where everything with 12" on my warlord has to test on its lowest Ld. and it payed off big time here. The Crone swooped up as well and blocked the Knight, forcing him to go round, as well as stripping a hull point with a Tentaclid.
- turn 3 saw more drop pods with Marines and Dreadnaughts coming down, but apart from the Shrikes, not much damage was incurred. His Storm Talon unloaded on the Crone, forcing him to jink. The Land Speeders tried to strip the last wound from my warlord, but a lucky jink made him survive as well. In return, the Crone Vector Struck the Storm Talon, blowing it up and the Flyrant warlord killed a Speeder with his Vector Strike and flew off. Mawlocs came in, but scattered. In the Tyranids deployment zone, both squads of Marines were being engaged by the Malanthrope and the remnants of the LAN and the Shrikes, slowly whittling them down.
- turn 4, the Knight charged a Mawloc and ripped it in two! Was the only highlight for the Marines however, as they were dying everywhere. The warlord came back in and blew up the Dreadnaught. The Crone went gliding and stripped another hull point off the Knight from afar. The other Flyrant stripped two hull points off as well.
- turn 5 left only the Knight (on 1 hull point) and a drop pod alive, at which point we called it. Bug victory!
What have we we learned?
- Shrikes hit hard, but are just too squishy to keep alive. You could use them as a backfield protector, but seems wasteful to me. They are out.
- I love my Mawlocs but they really did nothing here. Since this is supposed to be a tournament list, and I want some reliability, I'll probably ditch the as well.
Based on that, what's your opinion of the next iteration of the list?
-- CAD Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
30 Termagants Scuttling Swarm Tervigon
1 Malanthrope
Hive Crone
-- CAD Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
I feel as though you lerned "too much" I agree on the Shrikes, they are hard to use, and are very vulnerable to alpha strikes. I like Mawloc, but they are a 'like them, or don't" kind of unit. If they don't work for you, then they don't. They are very good vs Gunline style forces though, but Gunlines are not so common these days.
Things in your new list I strongly suggest you look at; 1 put a Thorax Hive on the Tervigon, I would use Electro-bugs myself. 2 a LAN works best with a Shrouding baby sitter, so finding points to grab an extra Veno/Malan is a high priority.
My biggest problem with hormagaunts is that I can't risk getting a T1 hold up by fubbing the that move through cover roll. If I have to start 3" back after 1,2,3 roll, then I'm playing behind the game.
2 Thunderfire Cannons
3-4 squads w/attack bike multi meltas and requisite grav spam
I feel like I'm leaving something out but I don't know what. I felt kind of bad because his list had essentially no anti-air and I told him going in that I only had brought the models to run this list. But he was a good sport and is always fun to play.
EDIT: The mission was purge the alien by the way. How oddly ironic. We just did straight eternal war due to being low on time
Short battle report, as the game was also short: I give him turn 1 and dare him to do something against shroudstar. This board had a decent amount of ruins so 2+ cover would be plentiful thoughout. His orbital bombardment whiffs on the bastion, rolling a 2 and then a 1 for his re-roll. Because he doesn't want to face multiple Dimachaerons (or probably any) in assault he focuses his fire on them but 2+ cover is pretty stupid and he also can't get his multi-meltas into range to do anything to the bastion.
On my turn 1, I pull the Malanthrope out of the bastion and into an adjacent ruin. Thankfully the Dimachaerons have freaking enormous bases, so they can move forward into a different ruin and still be within 6" of the Malanthrope, even after decent runs. Highlight of the game for me was my Flyrant zooming up and psychic screaming 4 bikes out of his squad (that's right, rolled a 12) and causing them to break off the board for first blood. Not that it mattered, as the other three Flyrants would do an AVERAGE of SEVEN HULL POINTS of damage to each Land Speeder, giving up second, third, and fourth blood.
It was pretty much over after that. The sicaran is not an AA platform and doesn't ignore regular cover for my ground units. The chapter master's squad did manage to take down a Dimachaeron (though he did some good work before going down). The other Dimachaeron didn't do much because we called the game on turn 3. The Flyrants had basically run amok and used volume of fire to kill most of his army.
Going into it, I pretty much knew what was going to happen as soon as I saw his list. I don't think mine was optimized to be honest - I am on the verge of dropping the Mawloc for a unit of screening Gargoyles to make the Dimachaerons happy on boards with less cover. His list of course was even less optimized - we already have a rematch set for when he gets his other 15 bikes ready. That's what I want to see
Small aside, it does sadden my heart to have a first-hand account of how good Tyranids are at killing Tyranids. Had a 750 point 2 v 2 game and randomly rolled for teams, so the Tyranids wound up being on opposite teams. The Dimachaeron got charged by a squad of 6 warriors and a prime (the prime had the bonesword/lash whip combo, giving him one chance to finish the bad boy off for good. Two hits....and NO sixes). Dimachaeron swings back angrily (getting a good roll for being outnumbered) and puts out SEVEN INSTANT DEATH WOUNDS. There were 7 models with a total of 21 wounds.....so I won combat by 21. Didn't get to sweep them (or use that I1 fnp) because, you know, they were already dead. This was naturally balanced out by a shameful combat in a different game where it took 2 full game turns to kill a wraithknight due to its 5++ (which it made 4 of) and due to a strength 10 instant death autohit still not being a death sentence apparently. I swear I roll more 1's to wound for that than I do in the whole rest of the game combined
Sasori wrote: So, do we have a pretty solid verdict on the Dimchaeron now? I see it popping up every now and then.
I know the Malanthrope is a must take now.
I don't know that we'll ever have a complete consensus on him. He has some very good matchups, and can influence the course of the game, if nothing else as an area denial. He's kind of like the swarmlord from back in the day. Every inch more than 18 closer to him becomes exponentially more dangerous for 95 percent of the models on the tabletop. He does not like Nurgle instant death demon princes though. They suck.
The problem, somewhat like the Mawloc, is that when he doesn't work, he doesn't do much. I still think he can help you rack up the maelstrom points pretty well though because your opponent won't go near him. I'd be very much surprised to see him in a tournament winning list however, where the name of the game is "have little to no counters/bad matchups" and he decidedly does have some
I'm thinking of using the Toxicrene model with the Dimachaeron rules. Hard to say for sure, if the Toxicrene ends up being great then I'd have to get a Dimachaeron regardless - but if given a choice between the two, what would you use?
tag8833 wrote: You spread them out, but not so far that you can't get to them. Against a deathstar you are giving up one objective a turn. You can't stop them, maybe slow them down with a wall of Gants or gargoyles. You've got to outscore them, that means having multiple units capable of scoring multiple objectives every turn in case those cards come up. Hormagants can do that every single turn. Rippers can only do that on the turn they come in. Also Hormagants are great at stealing objectives from deathstars because most deathstars aren't OS.
One thing I find is that against deathstars or more aggressive assault lists, your gribblies ( termies, hormies and gargoyles) will usually never get pass the middle. That is because you need them to fight against these units/armies. You need to use them either as screening units, tarpitting units or just to help out in assault. Thus, while ideally, you want them to go after the objectives, the reality is that usually, you can't because you need them to help stave off these types of armies. Now you may steal 1 objective point on the turn you screen out/assault, but your screening unit shouldn't live very long beyond that.
1) They can make it past the middle on turn 1. 2) You can't have it both ways. Either you NEED them to bubble wrap / tarpit / help out in assault against deathstars or you can do without any of that and take rippers. 3) Min squads of hormagants primary mission is to score points. It is tempting the send them in after a deathstar and get them killed, but you should resist that urge unless there is some thing that can be successfully tarpited (Knights, Centstar, Catacomb Command Barges). This was the big mistake I was making originally that led me to believe that Hormagants were a bad choice for troops.
jy2 wrote: However, rippers are highly useful against these types of armies because: 1. Deathstars have problems moving around. They cannot be in multiple places at the same time so in most cases, they will ignore your ripper troops. Of course you will have to help support your rippers with flyrants but against deathstar armies, my strategy 90% of the time is to take out the support units anyways. 2. If the deathstar does go after the rippers, then they lose board control and you can push your army up the middle. 3. Against assault based armies, they will have to split up their offense if they want to go after your ripper troops. Say, for example, you go up against 50 daemonettes. You then drop 2 units of rippers on separate objectives. Now your opponent needs to either 1) ignore them and let you continue potentially claiming points for them or 2) send 20 daemonettes after them and now your main force only has to deal with 30 daemonettes instead of 50. The point is, it dilutes the strength of your opponent's army. Either he gives up those points/objectives or he breaks up his forces going after them, thus making his army slightly easier to deal with.
The same strategy works with Hormagants, if you play them as objective scorers instead of blindly charging them at stuff. Plus hormagants are more survivable if they do get targetted, and can frustrate deathstars who want to kill them.
Hormagants average a 13.25" move. They have a deployment range that includes 1/4 of the board. They can basically get anywhere on the board in 2 turns except for deep in the opponent's deployment zone. Rippers have a similar range of mobility on turn 2 (if they happen to come in). You can drop them deep in the opponents deployment zone if you want, but generally they aren't going to accomplish much doing that. Once rippers are on the board, they average a 9.5" move (less than the minimum distance between 2 objectives). Significantly less, and they move that far much less reliably because they lack fleet. So by turn 3, Hormagants have been able to cover more ground than rippers, and that is without using any charge shenanigan. So if your goal is to reach distant tactical objectives, Hormagants are better able to accomplish it than rippers.
If you goal is to camp a single objective. Rippers are your better choice because you can keep them out of LOS easier, and they don't need babysitting as bad. That is why Rippers are all stars in Eternal war, and other low scoring formats.
I think of Hormagants as slightly inferior gargoyles. 13.25" move vs 15.5" move. +1 attack, OS, -1 PPM, but no blind, HOW or shooting. If gargoyles could fill your troop requirement it would be all gargoyles all of the time. My question to you is, would you take rippers over gargoyles in Maelstrom?
Again, that is being idealistic. In many games, you won't be able to get them past the middle, no matter how fast they can move. Play against the more aggressive armies and they will never get pass the middle. You need them to stay with and to protect your main forces less they get overrun. They will only ever be able to take objectives on your side. Play against drop pod armies and they probably won't even be able to really leave their deployment zones!
Don't be absurd. Against thunderwolves they run past the deathstar toward the backfield. Against Marine Bikes They inhibit the mobility by getting in the way while scoring objectives. Against Orks they ignore the boyz and kill the lootas and mek gunz. Against Drop pods they sometimes tarpit some marines (especially cents or sternguard) for a turn and then go on to score objectives. If a drop pod army decides to come in and alpha strike your hormagants instead of your flyrants, you've already won.
Hormagants are most valuable against aggressive armies because they can restrict the army's movement and steal objectives from the deathstars. In short they can disrupt an aggressive player's strategy. Rippers can't do that.
I think of Hormagants as slightly inferior gargoyles. 13.25" move vs 15.5" move. +1 attack, OS, -1 PPM, but no blind, HOW or shooting. If gargoyles could fill your troop requirement it would be all gargoyles all of the time. My question to you is, would you take rippers over gargoyles in Maelstrom?
And I suddenly feel like an idiot, as I was going to ask how you got a 13.25 move, and realized I have been forgetting the +3 on my runs about half the time.........
SBG wrote: I'm thinking of using the Toxicrene model with the Dimachaeron rules. Hard to say for sure, if the Toxicrene ends up being great then I'd have to get a Dimachaeron regardless - but if given a choice between the two, what would you use?
I'm sure there will be a lot of people going back and forth proxying between the two. The Toxicrene has some benefits and some drawbacks over the Dimachaeron.
Benefits:
40 pts less
Actually more efficient at wounding T8 (though the Dimachaeron typically comes out on top again if there are more than 2 wounds due to his being ID)
Will put the same number of wounds on T7, as well as T6 if not during the round of a charge
Some form of ranged attack (with ignores cover and instant death on a 6 - screw you Nurgle daemon prince!)
Large blast w/ignores cover is definitely not the worst, also wounding on anything but
Native shrouding allows operation away from the Venomthrope or Malanthrope bubble
Since it's less than 200 points, you feel less bad about him being a counter-assault for an objective
Since GW has decided to show us (probably on accident) that intervening models do give cover regardless of 25% obscuration, he's loving that he'll never take worse than a 3+ cover save if you screen appropriately. To be honest, this is always how I read it looking at the rules but it didn't feel like RAI. Now I don't feel bad (and to be honest, it makes a lot of sense given how lackluster the codex was. They probably thought we'd be taking 3+/2+ cover on our big dudes until we were blue in the face)
Is not in the fast attack section
Drawbacks:
Not all of his attacks are instant death. To be fair, not all of the Dimachaeron's attacks are either, but against T4 they can be, and against higher toughness (6+), almost all of the actual wounds will be anyhow
The close combat profile is more reliant on getting a little help - this is where paroxysm really shines. On a 3+ for the D3 roll of paroxysm, he will be hitting most units on 3's instead of 4's. It can also often close the gap from 5 to 4. Really, 3 is just such a terrible WS for a close combat monster. So you can mitigate it somewhat, but the fact that it needs mitigating is most decidedly a con
Does not have fleet
Does not have a second set of close combat weapons (seriously GW? Those aren't rending claws??)
You will miss those extra D3 attacks for being outnumbered
Is in the heavy support section
Let me explain that last point in the Benefits section: say you are placing objectives and there is a ruin somewhere on the board (probably pretty likely). You place an objective outside of the ruin but within say, 12". Really 18 is acceptable but 12 is more reliable. You move the Toxicrene into the ruin, where he can happily sit and lie in wait, loving his 2+ cover. Then, your opponent needs to contest/score that objective. If he does so, you will go and murder that squad. Quite reliably, in all likelihood. So you can use the objectives to make them come to you, rather than trudging across the board, getting lit the hell up along the way. This is not my idea by the way. Comes from the Tyranid hive proboards - his username is Yoritomo
In conclusion, I definitely think (like the Dimachaeron) you can find lists that make him work. Will he win GT's? I'd love it but not likely. I think he's a cool model and I'll surely eventually get one. Crossing my fingers for a data slate/formation to make him see more table time, but he's certainly not unplayable by any stretch of the imagination
EDIT: Realized I never answered the original question lol. I think if I could only choose one, it would be the Dimachaeron. He's just the better beat stick and I would pay the extra points for it. My lists actively draw focus away from him, so he works pretty well. I would also probably use both before just using the Toxicrene, as I think they probably work well in tandem. That being said, at lower points limits I think the Toxicrene would really shine more. You don't really need the Malanthrope so you can actually run a list without him (gasp!) and save even more points.
Toxicrene has the advantage of being non FW, which most players in non competitive games would prefer. In addition, most east coast tournaments disallow FW.
He is also 5 wounds compared to a Carnifexes 4, and will usually have a 3+ cover save. He cant put out the firepower of a fex, but we now have (short) ranged instant death capability. 6 attacks with 3 hitting on average against most is nice on an MC that has poison 2+ with a chance to ID, we now have a more effective way to hurt Wraithknights and the like.
But he's still a slow moving MC. Will I trade a fex in my competitive lists for one? Maybe, in the sense that he's a more survivable, arguably more durable bullet magnet that hopefully draws fire fruitlessly away from my Tyrants, in addition to being a more effective backfield DS deterrent. He's a little more expensive, but he's also got more wounds and a much higher initiative.
With a 4+ save, non pw assault units can beat his ass. A tac squad with no pw does like 1.7 wounds to it, versus his 3 wounds. Barely beating a tac squad is pathetic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With a 4+ save, non pw assault units can beat his ass. A tac squad with no pw does like 1.7 wounds to it, versus his 3 wounds. Barely beating a tac squad is pathetic.
There's a lot to like with the Toxicrene, but I doubt it will be making its way into any of my lists. 6" move is the bane to any assault based unit...not sure I can get over that.
Regardless, I love the Preditory Sentience rule, granting armorbane against open topped vehicles and/or any vehicle that's already taken a glancing hit. A very cool rule that could free up our Flyrants from HAVING to deal with LRs and Imperial Knights (though the Toxicrene being S5 base doesn't make it a slam dunk). It would be nice if the Toxicrene had access to Tyranid Biomorphs...
I think of Hormagants as slightly inferior gargoyles. 13.25" move vs 15.5" move. +1 attack, OS, -1 PPM, but no blind, HOW or shooting. If gargoyles could fill your troop requirement it would be all gargoyles all of the time. My question to you is, would you take rippers over gargoyles in Maelstrom?
And I suddenly feel like an idiot, as I was going to ask how you got a 13.25 move, and realized I have been forgetting the +3 on my runs about half the time.........
The extra run is a critical part of hormagants. It was once I figured out that they should be running instead of charging most of the time that they started to work for me. Because so many people are unfamiliar with Hormagants, let me rundown the exact detail of the calculation.
Hormagants: Move: 6" (4.96" if going through cover)
Run: 4.25" (Average of a D6 is 3.5", but with fleet, if you reroll everything less than 4, you end up with an average of 4.25")
Bounding Leap: 3" (This is a hormagant special rule, extra 3" when running, and the reason they are better than termagants)
Total Move: 13.25"
Charge: 8.5 (Average of 2D6 is 7", but with fleet, if you reroll everything less than 4, you end up with an average of 8.5")
Total Move if you charge rather than run: 14.5"
Termagants: Move: 6" (4.96" if going through cover)
Run: 3.5"
Total Move: 9.5"
Charge: 7"
Total Move if you charge rather than run: 13"
Rippers, and Warriors have the same Movement speed, except Move through Cover which is 4.47" rather than 4.96"
Genestealers move like hormagants except they don't have bounding leap. So their total move if they run is 10.25, and if they charge is 14.5"
Bounding Leap and Fleet go farther. For instance, your chance of a 4" run with Fleet and bounding Leap is 100%. With only fleet it is 75%. With No Fleet it is 50%. So if the objective is 10" away, you will always make it with Hormgants, and only make 1/2 of the time with warriors or Rippers.
Another example. Odds of making a 10" charge with Fleet are: 42.6%. Without fleet the odds are: 16.7%
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voidwraith wrote: There's a lot to like with the Toxicrene, but I doubt it will be making its way into any of my lists. 6" move is the bane to any assault based unit...not sure I can get over that.
Regardless, I love the Preditory Sentience rule, granting armorbane against open topped vehicles and/or any vehicle that's already taken a glancing hit. A very cool rule that could free up our Flyrants from HAVING to deal with LRs and Imperial Knights (though the Toxicrene being S5 base doesn't make it a slam dunk). It would be nice if the Toxicrene had access to Tyranid Biomorphs...
He only gets Armourbane on his S3, Assault 1 Blast. Not going to pop many vehicles with that.
2 Thunderfire Cannons
3-4 squads w/attack bike multi meltas and requisite grav spam
I feel like I'm leaving something out but I don't know what. I felt kind of bad because his list had essentially no anti-air and I told him going in that I only had brought the models to run this list. But he was a good sport and is always fun to play.
EDIT: The mission was purge the alien by the way. How oddly ironic. We just did straight eternal war due to being low on time
Short battle report, as the game was also short: I give him turn 1 and dare him to do something against shroudstar. This board had a decent amount of ruins so 2+ cover would be plentiful thoughout. His orbital bombardment whiffs on the bastion, rolling a 2 and then a 1 for his re-roll. Because he doesn't want to face multiple Dimachaerons (or probably any) in assault he focuses his fire on them but 2+ cover is pretty stupid and he also can't get his multi-meltas into range to do anything to the bastion.
On my turn 1, I pull the Malanthrope out of the bastion and into an adjacent ruin. Thankfully the Dimachaerons have freaking enormous bases, so they can move forward into a different ruin and still be within 6" of the Malanthrope, even after decent runs. Highlight of the game for me was my Flyrant zooming up and psychic screaming 4 bikes out of his squad (that's right, rolled a 12) and causing them to break off the board for first blood. Not that it mattered, as the other three Flyrants would do an AVERAGE of SEVEN HULL POINTS of damage to each Land Speeder, giving up second, third, and fourth blood.
It was pretty much over after that. The sicaran is not an AA platform and doesn't ignore regular cover for my ground units. The chapter master's squad did manage to take down a Dimachaeron (though he did some good work before going down). The other Dimachaeron didn't do much because we called the game on turn 3. The Flyrants had basically run amok and used volume of fire to kill most of his army.
Going into it, I pretty much knew what was going to happen as soon as I saw his list. I don't think mine was optimized to be honest - I am on the verge of dropping the Mawloc for a unit of screening Gargoyles to make the Dimachaerons happy on boards with less cover. His list of course was even less optimized - we already have a rematch set for when he gets his other 15 bikes ready. That's what I want to see
Small aside, it does sadden my heart to have a first-hand account of how good Tyranids are at killing Tyranids. Had a 750 point 2 v 2 game and randomly rolled for teams, so the Tyranids wound up being on opposite teams. The Dimachaeron got charged by a squad of 6 warriors and a prime (the prime had the bonesword/lash whip combo, giving him one chance to finish the bad boy off for good. Two hits....and NO sixes). Dimachaeron swings back angrily (getting a good roll for being outnumbered) and puts out SEVEN INSTANT DEATH WOUNDS. There were 7 models with a total of 21 wounds.....so I won combat by 21. Didn't get to sweep them (or use that I1 fnp) because, you know, they were already dead. This was naturally balanced out by a shameful combat in a different game where it took 2 full game turns to kill a wraithknight due to its 5++ (which it made 4 of) and due to a strength 10 instant death autohit still not being a death sentence apparently. I swear I roll more 1's to wound for that than I do in the whole rest of the game combined
Thanks for sharing.
I am finding that our bugs actually match up well against Marine biker armies as long as you have that 2+ cover to survive his alpha-strike. Just don't charge into them unless its with the dimachaeron (or now probably the toxicrene as well). Especially ignore the Shield Eternal Chapter Master deathsquad in combat and just dakka the crap out of them. I usually beat them by killing all the individual troop bike units and just ignoring the HQ deathstar.
BTW, it's more like "how good the dimachaeron is at killing Tyranids".
Sasori wrote: So, do we have a pretty solid verdict on the Dimchaeron now? I see it popping up every now and then.
I know the Malanthrope is a must take now.
The dimachaeron is more of a playstyle-preference kind of unit than a competitive choice. Against the right army, he will absolutely wreck house. In 2 games I've had with him, he alone went through 900+ pts of Space Wolves and 1000+ pts worth of Nurgle. In other games, he did absolutely nothing but draw fire and die. In casual games, I absolutely love him as he makes the army feel not impotent in assault. He brings back not only respect, but fear, to assaulty nids. However, in competitive play, he'll die without doing anything to armies like Eldar, Tau, centstar Space Marines, biker armies and Mindshackle Necrons....which coincidentally are the top armies that you normally find in tournaments.
SBG wrote: I'm thinking of using the Toxicrene model with the Dimachaeron rules. Hard to say for sure, if the Toxicrene ends up being great then I'd have to get a Dimachaeron regardless - but if given a choice between the two, what would you use?
tag8833 wrote: You spread them out, but not so far that you can't get to them. Against a deathstar you are giving up one objective a turn. You can't stop them, maybe slow them down with a wall of Gants or gargoyles. You've got to outscore them, that means having multiple units capable of scoring multiple objectives every turn in case those cards come up. Hormagants can do that every single turn. Rippers can only do that on the turn they come in. Also Hormagants are great at stealing objectives from deathstars because most deathstars aren't OS.
One thing I find is that against deathstars or more aggressive assault lists, your gribblies ( termies, hormies and gargoyles) will usually never get pass the middle. That is because you need them to fight against these units/armies. You need to use them either as screening units, tarpitting units or just to help out in assault. Thus, while ideally, you want them to go after the objectives, the reality is that usually, you can't because you need them to help stave off these types of armies. Now you may steal 1 objective point on the turn you screen out/assault, but your screening unit shouldn't live very long beyond that.
1) They can make it past the middle on turn 1.
2) You can't have it both ways. Either you NEED them to bubble wrap / tarpit / help out in assault against deathstars or you can do without any of that and take rippers.
3) Min squads of hormagants primary mission is to score points. It is tempting the send them in after a deathstar and get them killed, but you should resist that urge unless there is some thing that can be successfully tarpited (Knights, Centstar, Catacomb Command Barges). This was the big mistake I was making originally that led me to believe that Hormagants were a bad choice for troops.
I didn't know you actually ran min squads of hormagants? I thought you ran larger units? If going min-sized for objectives, wouldn't it be better just to get 10 termagants? While not as fast, the savings can get you the Egrubs on your flyrants.
In the case of MY army, yes, I actually don't need bubble-wrapping/tarpitting units....which is why I don't run hormagants or termagants currently. Basically, my core consists of the Malan in a bastion, some gargoyles and my dimachaeron. I really don't care if they get killed. However, should my opponent feel the need to push his units towards my gargoyles and the very deadly dimachaeron, then by all means, I will be glad. Gargoyles are mainly for trying to catch a unit and pin it down for the dimachaeron. They also daisy-chain to hold objectives on my side of the table as well as to provide screening cover for the dimachaeron for 3+ shrouded cover. But ultimately, when playing against assaulty deathstars and other assault-based armies, the job of my "core" is to lead them away from all of the other objectives so that my main forces - the flyrants and mawlocs and other flyers - can deal with their MSU troops on their objectives. I am perfectly willing to sacrifice my core in order to do this.
jy2 wrote: However, rippers are highly useful against these types of armies because:
1. Deathstars have problems moving around. They cannot be in multiple places at the same time so in most cases, they will ignore your ripper troops. Of course you will have to help support your rippers with flyrants but against deathstar armies, my strategy 90% of the time is to take out the support units anyways.
2. If the deathstar does go after the rippers, then they lose board control and you can push your army up the middle.
3. Against assault based armies, they will have to split up their offense if they want to go after your ripper troops. Say, for example, you go up against 50 daemonettes. You then drop 2 units of rippers on separate objectives. Now your opponent needs to either 1) ignore them and let you continue potentially claiming points for them or 2) send 20 daemonettes after them and now your main force only has to deal with 30 daemonettes instead of 50. The point is, it dilutes the strength of your opponent's army. Either he gives up those points/objectives or he breaks up his forces going after them, thus making his army slightly easier to deal with.
The same strategy works with Hormagants, if you play them as objective scorers instead of blindly charging them at stuff. Plus hormagants are more survivable if they do get targetted, and can frustrate deathstars who want to kill them.
Hormagants average a 13.25" move. They have a deployment range that includes 1/4 of the board. They can basically get anywhere on the board in 2 turns except for deep in the opponent's deployment zone. Rippers have a similar range of mobility on turn 2 (if they happen to come in). You can drop them deep in the opponents deployment zone if you want, but generally they aren't going to accomplish much doing that. Once rippers are on the board, they average a 9.5" move (less than the minimum distance between 2 objectives). Significantly less, and they move that far much less reliably because they lack fleet. So by turn 3, Hormagants have been able to cover more ground than rippers, and that is without using any charge shenanigan. So if your goal is to reach distant tactical objectives, Hormagants are better able to accomplish it than rippers.
If you goal is to camp a single objective. Rippers are your better choice because you can keep them out of LOS easier, and they don't need babysitting as bad. That is why Rippers are all stars in Eternal war, and other low scoring formats.
I think of Hormagants as slightly inferior gargoyles. 13.25" move vs 15.5" move. +1 attack, OS, -1 PPM, but no blind, HOW or shooting. If gargoyles could fill your troop requirement it would be all gargoyles all of the time. My question to you is, would you take rippers over gargoyles in Maelstrom?
Again, that is being idealistic. In many games, you won't be able to get them past the middle, no matter how fast they can move. Play against the more aggressive armies and they will never get pass the middle. You need them to stay with and to protect your main forces less they get overrun. They will only ever be able to take objectives on your side. Play against drop pod armies and they probably won't even be able to really leave their deployment zones!
Don't be absurd. Against thunderwolves they run past the deathstar toward the backfield. Against Marine Bikes They inhibit the mobility by getting in the way while scoring objectives. Against Orks they ignore the boyz and kill the lootas and mek gunz. Against Drop pods they sometimes tarpit some marines (especially cents or sternguard) for a turn and then go on to score objectives. If a drop pod army decides to come in and alpha strike your hormagants instead of your flyrants, you've already won.
Hormagants are most valuable against aggressive armies because they can restrict the army's movement and steal objectives from the deathstars. In short they can disrupt an aggressive player's strategy. Rippers can't do that.
I am wondering how are gribblies running past a deathstar (like the TWC) when in most likelihood, they will be forming a wall? When playing against a deathstar like a TWC, they tend to spread out to try to trap you. Thus, no matter where you go, they can get to you. In other words, they tend to form a wall when advancing so that they can easily go to the right or the left to catch "escaping" prey. And when I say "catch", I mean multi-assault that unit and whatever else is in front of them as the deathstar has a large foot print that can easily cover multiple units.
Against biker marines, they inhibit mobility by getting in the way. In other words, they screen out the bikers. Exactly what I was saying. Oftentimes, they have to help out the army by screening or tarpitting a unit.
Against orks, seriously? How are your gribblies getting past the wall of green tide to get to lootas and mek gunz in the ork backfield? That is something your flyrants and mawlocs can do, but not your gribblies (unless you can outflank them with Hive Commander).
Against drop pod marines, hate to break the news to you, but those marines and their drop pods are already on top of objectives. So yeah, your gribblies will be staying in your backfield and locking up those marines while trying to contest (and possibly score) those objectives that they are on. And even if they ignore those marines, guess what? They are going to get shot in the back by boltguns unless you want to assault 70-pt combat squads with your 240-pt flyrants, 150-pt dakkafexes or whatever.
"Hormagants are most valuable against aggressive armies because they can restrict the army's movement and steal objectives from the deathstars." In short, you are using them to screen out the deathstars to "restrict" them from advancing. That also means your gribblies aren't advancing towards their objectives as well. The only objectives that they are getting are the ones already on their side of the deployment half which they should be normally getting anyways.
Voidwraith wrote: There's a lot to like with the Toxicrene, but I doubt it will be making its way into any of my lists. 6" move is the bane to any assault based unit...not sure I can get over that.
Regardless, I love the Preditory Sentience rule, granting armorbane against open topped vehicles and/or any vehicle that's already taken a glancing hit. A very cool rule that could free up our Flyrants from HAVING to deal with LRs and Imperial Knights (though the Toxicrene being S5 base doesn't make it a slam dunk). It would be nice if the Toxicrene had access to Tyranid Biomorphs...
He only gets Armourbane on his S3, Assault 1 Blast. Not going to pop many vehicles with that.
Doh...missed that Preditory Sentience was in his ranged weapon profile. Yeah...not a factor...
tag8833 wrote: You spread them out, but not so far that you can't get to them. Against a deathstar you are giving up one objective a turn. You can't stop them, maybe slow them down with a wall of Gants or gargoyles. You've got to outscore them, that means having multiple units capable of scoring multiple objectives every turn in case those cards come up. Hormagants can do that every single turn. Rippers can only do that on the turn they come in. Also Hormagants are great at stealing objectives from deathstars because most deathstars aren't OS.
One thing I find is that against deathstars or more aggressive assault lists, your gribblies ( termies, hormies and gargoyles) will usually never get pass the middle. That is because you need them to fight against these units/armies. You need to use them either as screening units, tarpitting units or just to help out in assault. Thus, while ideally, you want them to go after the objectives, the reality is that usually, you can't because you need them to help stave off these types of armies. Now you may steal 1 objective point on the turn you screen out/assault, but your screening unit shouldn't live very long beyond that.
1) They can make it past the middle on turn 1.
2) You can't have it both ways. Either you NEED them to bubble wrap / tarpit / help out in assault against deathstars or you can do without any of that and take rippers.
3) Min squads of hormagants primary mission is to score points. It is tempting the send them in after a deathstar and get them killed, but you should resist that urge unless there is some thing that can be successfully tarpited (Knights, Centstar, Catacomb Command Barges). This was the big mistake I was making originally that led me to believe that Hormagants were a bad choice for troops.
I didn't know you actually ran min squads of hormagants? I thought you ran larger units? If going min-sized for objectives, wouldn't it be better just to get 10 termagants? While not as fast, the savings can get you the Egrubs on your flyrants.
I always run min squads unless I'm being fluffy or have 5-10 points left over. Generally Gargoyles are better, so if I'm running more than min squads of Hormagants, I should usually run more gargoyles instead.
Termagants are a bad choice in Maelstrom. They have crappy mobility compared to Hormagants, and can't screen because of that. They get in the ways of MCs too much. So basically they score less, Screen less, and control the board less. It is always worth upgrading a min squad of termagants to a min squad of hormagants. If you want to run more than a min squad, a mixed squad of Spinefist/Devourer Termagants can be pretty good in Maelstrom.
jy2 wrote: In the case of MY army, yes, I actually don't need bubble-wrapping/tarpitting units....which is why I don't run hormagants or termagants currently. Basically, my core consists of the Malan in a bastion, some gargoyles and my dimachaeron. I really don't care if they get killed. However, should my opponent feel the need to push his units towards my gargoyles and the very deadly dimachaeron, then by all means, I will be glad. Gargoyles are mainly for trying to catch a unit and pin it down for the dimachaeron. They also daisy-chain to hold objectives on my side of the table as well as to provide screening cover for the dimachaeron for 3+ shrouded cover. But ultimately, when playing against assaulty deathstars and other assault-based armies, the job of my "core" is to lead them away from all of the other objectives so that my main forces - the flyrants and mawlocs and other flyers - can deal with their MSU troops on their objectives. I am perfectly willing to sacrifice my core in order to do this.
"I don't use bubble-wrapping/tarpitting units" But "I run gargoyles" Brings me back to my original question. If you could take non-OS gargoyles as troops instead of rippers would you do so?
Also, a question begged by you description of your army (which you didn't build for Maelstrom). Do you think that an army chosen to compete with one type of mission is always going to be optimal when playing a different sort of mission? I don't. I run significantly different armies for BAO for straight EW (though the difference is small) and for Maelstrom (Big Difference). The bones are the same (Flyrants, Malanthropes, Gargoyles), but beyond that there are changes.
jy2 wrote: I am wondering how are gribblies running past a deathstar (like the TWC) when in most likelihood, they will be forming a wall? When playing against a deathstar like a TWC, they tend to spread out to try to trap you. Thus, no matter where you go, they can get to you. In other words, they tend to form a wall when advancing so that they can easily go to the right or the left to catch "escaping" prey. And when I say "catch", I mean multi-assault that unit and whatever else is in front of them as the deathstar has a large foot print that can easily cover multiple units.
I don't think TWC have been terribly successful, but there are two players I see who run them regularly. One runs about 8-10 TWC with a bunch of cyber wolves to eat wounds. He sometimes spreads out, but I usually deploy gants on one flank or the other in an effort to get past him. I use my flyrants on turn one to shoot up that flank of cyber wolves so that he has a harder time multi-assaulting the gants. If he really wants to kill the gants he can, but with my Gargoyles screening for the rest of my army, it means he is giving up on something more critical to me. The other TWC player runs smaller squad(s). Usually he runs them up one flank with dreadnoughts on the other flank. I just run the gants towards the dreds. Sometimes I tarpit one of them on an objective. OS wins the day. I don't think either are a very competitive strategy, and I've beat them both with pretty fluffy list. I would like to figure out a more competitive list to pass along to one of them and try out, but I haven't really seen any better ones than the one he is currently running which can demolish lots of things, but has few answers to Tyranids.
jy2 wrote: Against orks, seriously? How are your gribblies getting past the wall of green tide to get to lootas and mek gunz in the ork backfield? That is something your flyrants and mawlocs can do, but not your gribblies (unless you can outflank them with Hive Commander).
Same principle as thunder wolves. If he is bringing 4 large squads up the field at me, I deploy me Gants on a flank, and send my Dakkafexes / Exocrines / Biovores over there to demolish the large squad on that flank so that my gants can get through. Quite often then get a turn 2 charge on Lootas or Mek Gunz. Also the Ork players in my area still love the quad gun, so the gants are usually task with tying up whatever squad is using that. I haven't had any notable problem against orks. I ran into a Dread Mob player with a bunch of walkers that game me some trouble because of my fluffy list, but I won the game pretty easily. One important thing is the Mek Gunz have gretchin crew that T7 against shooting, but only T2 against assault. Hormagants and Gargoyles take them out better than flyrants, Exocrines or Dakkafexes.
jy2 wrote: Against drop pod marines, hate to break the news to you, but those marines and their drop pods are already on top of objectives. So yeah, your gribblies will be staying in your backfield and locking up those marines while trying to contest (and possibly score) those objectives that they are on. And even if they ignore those marines, guess what? They are going to get shot in the back by boltguns unless you want to assault 70-pt combat squads with your 240-pt flyrants, 150-pt dakkafexes or whatever.
1st things first. I don't reserve anything against drop pods, and I would recommend you don't either. If you are reserving stuff against drop pods besides maybe Mawlocs or rippers, you are doing something wrong. The drop pods are going to come in. When they do, they've got to make the choice.
Option 1) Alpha strike. Go after our valuable units like Flyrants. If they do this it is going to hurt. We are usually going to lose something, but all of those marines should either be dead or locked in close combat by turn 2.
Option 2) drop pod onto objectives. This is a much better choice against tyranids, and much more challenging to deal with. The problem isn't marines. A min squad of Hormies can tarpit a combat squaded tac squad plenty long for bigger stuff to come and clean them out. Gants should always be making sure that they are contesting objectives from the stupid OS drop pods or tac squads, but they aren't going to win you the game. That is going to be your bigger stuff. Rippers fare much worse in this scenario because they don't have quite as much mobility or staying power, and if the marines are going to cover up all of the objectives, they've kinda got to hide until they get cleared. They can tarpit a tac squad, but aren't as mobile to give up on one objective and move on to another if it isn't going to happen.
@tag8833 I feel the main problem here when comparing you to jy2 is opponent sample size. Judging by your responses you appear to play a much smaller amount of opponents and you seem to be the dominant one out of your group which is skewing your success with certain units. Honestly if you're beating your opponents with fluffy list then you could probably beat them with almost any unit. jy2's sample size on the other hand is various large tournaments, the fine people at Frontline Gaming and many other areas.
You kinda lost me with this one:
tag8833 wrote: I don't think TWC have been terribly successful, but there are two players I see who run them regularly.
I don't think its about sample size and if you are talking logic it really shouldn't matter... Tag does have some less competitive opponents and does what we should all practice as higher level players and that is dumbing down his list and using lower tier units for the situation (while still composing a solid army so it's still fun for him too). It's clear that he has a lot of experience against high-level opponents as well, but regardless I prefer to fault the logic rather than the circumstances or the poster. All that being said, Tag didn't say anything to suggest that this opponent was lesser skill than him, just that the strategy didn't work too well against him, even to the extent that he could beat it with a less competitive build, this says nothing about his opponent, and his logic was mostly in relation to TWC themselves, who do not take 20 different opponents using the unit against you to comprehend strategically, and if there's something about them he's getting wrong, that should be what your counter-response includes. I too have found TWC (and tbh most things that runs straight at us - with a few exceptions like Knights) to not be too successful an opponent against us, for multiple reasons. I don't think telling someone that their "sample size is too low and jy2 plays more tournaments than you so it's his opinion we'll go with" is a good substitute for competitive logic, or a good way to breed healthy discussion. Jy2 is wrong, Tag is wrong, I am wrong, Luke is wrong, Strat is wrong, we all have room to improve our game regardless of how many tournaments we attend, so lets not let get elitist and start discounting people's opinions based on sample size instead of actually arguing against bad logic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Except for maybe that one guy who kept trying to tell us all how we were building our lists wrong, explaining how Trygons and Haruspex are great units, while admitting that he has never played with or against Tyranids and was still building his army. He was freaking annoying.
jy2's sample size on the other hand is various large tournaments, the fine people at Frontline Gaming and many other areas.
Also this is not only an unhealthy attitude, but also incredibly bad supporting logic, it's not hard to find flaws in some of the strategy logic posted at FLG, they are popular for being a large resource and making good bat-reps and being a site with a lot of digestable content which is updated regularly. This does not make them strategy gods or even better at strategy than plenty of dakkanauts, nor does it make the people in Jy2's tourneys more than human, there is nothing to say that ANY of these people are better players than Tag in fact from what I've seen Tag has a much deeper understand of the game than them and I'd bet hes a lot better than the standard player at even high level tourneys. This, however, is once again just an opinion, but is a good example of why the relevant point of a statement should be whats being said, not who's saying it.
Its going to accommodate a large range of possibilities for up to about 2000 pts. Not really fit for Toxicrenes though...
Next weekend there is a small local tournament at the Bowie GW. Probably like 6-10 people at the most. I am taking Skyblight, with two flyrants and rippers for primary at 1500pts. I need to win it so I dont have to pay full price for the new bug kit.
My two Crones have to be harpies, and my harpy has to be a crone.
@SHUPPET, Honestly that snarky reply I posted that was directed at Tag was a bit of a cheap shot but it was more in response to his "aggressive" style of "discussing" things. While he does go in to great detail which is great and I enjoy, he's very dismissive and likes to deal with absolutes a bit too much for my taste.
"Except for maybe that one guy who kept trying to tell us all how we were building our lists wrong, explaining how Trygons and Haruspex are great units, while admitting that he has never played with or against Tyranids and was still building his army. He was freaking annoying."
I must have missed this guy? Was it morgoth or someone worse?
@tag8833 I feel the main problem here when comparing you to jy2 is opponent sample size. Judging by your responses you appear to play a much smaller amount of opponents and you seem to be the dominant one out of your group which is skewing your success with certain units. Honestly if you're beating your opponents with fluffy list then you could probably beat them with almost any unit. jy2's sample size on the other hand is various large tournaments, the fine people at Frontline Gaming and many other areas.
You kinda lost me with this one:
tag8833 wrote: I don't think TWC have been terribly successful, but there are two players I see who run them regularly.
I'm sure that is true. It frustrates me that I only have a handful of competitive opponents, and I have been working hard to uplift others so that can compete with me on a competitive level. I'm the local TO, which makes me somewhat dominant, but there are at least 3-4 players that are at least as good as me, and can regularly beat me, and another 6 or so that are slightly less competitive, and then another 10-12 that are not competitive at all. There are another 12 who are infrequent opponents some of which are competitive, and I've played another 30-40 people that I've only every played once. For instance, people in an RTT.
That being said, I only ever play Tyranids, unless I army swap with someone to show them how to beat me. I am prolific. I play 3-4 games a week. Playing less competitive players lets me audition other units and builds that allows me a better understanding of the Tyranid codex. Tyranids are JY2's Secondary army (necrons), and he plays a pretty specific build without as much experimentation, but he has been playing quite a bit longer then me against a higher level of competition which is why I generally deffer to him in cases where I disagree. This is one case where I'm not willing to defer, because 75% of my games are Maelstrom, and I've played both Hormagants and rippers so many times in 7th that I can't even count. Meanwhile, he hasn't logged many maelstrom games, and the games he has logged have probably been against opponents that haven't had time to log enough maelstrom games to master the missions. He also hasn't used Hormagants in so long that he forgot about the one rule that makes them a superior unit (Bounding leap). In short, I'm confident that my experience in this one specific case exceeds his.
I also think I've been pretty careful to avoid broad absolutes. I add qualifiers like "In Maelstrom", and "Against Thunderwolf Calvary" which often get stripped off in replies, which is frustrating to me, because all I've ever claimed is that Hormagants are better than rippers in Maelstrom, and it keeps getting conflated with a claim that Hormagants are better in all mission types which is not what I am saying.
I would like nothing more than to be proved wrong. It is only by locating and understanding mistakes that I can become a better player. That is why I'm here. Without sufficient diversity or competitiveness of meta, I've got to reach outside for an understanding of how to compete against top tier opponents. I'm not shy about admitting when I was wrong, nor do I have a problem experimenting with lists or strategies that I haven't tried.
buying these ones, since I just got into it in 7th. but stupidly excited to see if more units can become more useful. and Shuppet.
5 deathspitters
deepstrike, fearless, instinctive fire.
has drifting death
when it lands on impassable terrain, move it the minimum distance where it will be fine. deploy up to 6" away, but not 1" near enemy units (can not really mishap)
can upgrade with barbed strangler or vennom cannon for 25 pts.
Well, it's a massive buff to Zopes, Dima, Stonecrushers, TFex, and a decent one to Dakkafex and Devilgants. Big buff to Stealershock as well.
Apparently can transport absolutely anything in the dex, 20 capacity or 1 MC. Doesn't take up an FOC slot itself. Non-dedicated transport, can be taken individual of units.
Pyrovores might see the table now...still better Elites to use but they suddenly became more viable
It looks like T5 W6 4+ so it would be great at plonking on an objective or at least drawing fire away from your army if the opponent wants an objective.
And it moves too! So you can get to that objective if you DS out too far.
@tag8833 I feel the main problem here when comparing you to jy2 is opponent sample size. Judging by your responses you appear to play a much smaller amount of opponents and you seem to be the dominant one out of your group which is skewing your success with certain units. Honestly if you're beating your opponents with fluffy list then you could probably beat them with almost any unit. jy2's sample size on the other hand is various large tournaments, the fine people at Frontline Gaming and many other areas.
You kinda lost me with this one:
tag8833 wrote: I don't think TWC have been terribly successful, but there are two players I see who run them regularly.
I'm sure that is true. It frustrates me that I only have a handful of competitive opponents, and I have been working hard to uplift others so that can compete with me on a competitive level. I'm the local TO, which makes me somewhat dominant, but there are at least 3-4 players that are at least as good as me, and can regularly beat me, and another 6 or so that are slightly less competitive, and then another 10-12 that are not competitive at all. There are another 12 who are infrequent opponents some of which are competitive, and I've played another 30-40 people that I've only every played once. For instance, people in an RTT.
That being said, I only ever play Tyranids, unless I army swap with someone to show them how to beat me. I am prolific. I play 3-4 games a week. Playing less competitive players lets me audition other units and builds that allows me a better understanding of the Tyranid codex. Tyranids are JY2's Secondary army (necrons), and he plays a pretty specific build without as much experimentation, but he has been playing quite a bit longer then me against a higher level of competition which is why I generally deffer to him in cases where I disagree. This is one case where I'm not willing to defer, because 75% of my games are Maelstrom, and I've played both Hormagants and rippers so many times in 7th that I can't even count. Meanwhile, he hasn't logged many maelstrom games, and the games he has logged have probably been against opponents that haven't had time to log enough maelstrom games to master the missions. He also hasn't used Hormagants in so long that he forgot about the one rule that makes them a superior unit (Bounding leap). In short, I'm confident that my experience in this one specific case exceeds his.
I also think I've been pretty careful to avoid broad absolutes. I add qualifiers like "In Maelstrom", and "Against Thunderwolf Calvary" which often get stripped off in replies, which is frustrating to me, because all I've ever claimed is that Hormagants are better than rippers in Maelstrom, and it keeps getting conflated with a claim that Hormagants are better in all mission types which is not what I am saying.
I would like nothing more than to be proved wrong. It is only by locating and understanding mistakes that I can become a better player. That is why I'm here. Without sufficient diversity or competitiveness of meta, I've got to reach outside for an understanding of how to compete against top tier opponents. I'm not shy about admitting when I was wrong, nor do I have a problem experimenting with lists or strategies that I haven't tried.
Fair enough, I might even give Hormagaunts another shot
That thing is interesting. The Guns are all pointing in different directions, but it is an MC, so that doesn't matter. Why would it have 5 Deathspitters, when it can only fire 2 of them?
Looks like one of the biggest strengths of the new pod will be that it not only takes no FOC slot, but it's not a dedicated transport, giving us tactical flexibility with it.
For example, if your list has;
20 gants
3 warriors
3 single zoes
And you expect to need a solid 15" roadblock later, pod the gants. If you roll psychic scream on a zoe, mini-doom in a pod. If you want an autonomous, halfway decent ob-sec unit for grabbing objectives, put the warriors in.
The biggest weakness looks like it's high cost. It's statline isn't bad, and we don't know how it's 5 deathspitters will operate as for shooting, but it can't charge, so using it to beat up on gak like 6 man fire warrior squads isn't going to work.
Another pro, it can move now after landing, so mobile BLOS and roadblocking.
2 Flyrants
Malanthrope(in a box if that's your bag)
Tervigon in a spud
30 gants (mix of devil and normal)
Dima in a spud
Dima in a spud
Dakkafexes to taste
Who needs speed when you can drop the threats where you want them and make them face either the Dima or a bunch of Dakkafexes?
rigeld2 wrote: 2 Flyrants
Malanthrope(in a box if that's your bag)
Tervigon in a spud
30 gants (mix of devil and normal)
Dima in a spud
Dima in a spud
Dakkafexes to taste
Who needs speed when you can drop the threats where you want them and make them face either the Dima or a bunch of Dakkafexes?
Honestly I'm not sure melee anything would be good in a spud. They had the same problem in fifth edition- it's a turn three charge at the earliest, and you have to soak a turn of fire/be charged before you can charge yourself.
tag8833 wrote: "I don't use bubble-wrapping/tarpitting units" But "I run gargoyles" Brings me back to my original question. If you could take non-OS gargoyles as troops instead of rippers would you do so?
I'd run both. I'd bring 1 or maybe 2 rippers at most and round out the rest of my troops with gargoyles. Rippers still fill a niche that gargoyles can't compete with. They are better at holding far objectives without the need for Synapse and they are better able to hide than gargoyles are.
Also, a question begged by you description of your army (which you didn't build for Maelstrom). Do you think that an army chosen to compete with one type of mission is always going to be optimal when playing a different sort of mission? I don't. I run significantly different armies for BAO for straight EW (though the difference is small) and for Maelstrom (Big Difference). The bones are the same (Flyrants, Malanthropes, Gargoyles), but beyond that there are changes.
Yes, I believe it could be. IMO, a good TAC Tyranid list is usable in both games as it should have the mobility to reach any objectives, no matter how far. I get my practice from BAO missions, where you have to build your lists to be able to tackle both Maelstrom and Eternal at the same time, but I believe it can work both in solitary Eternal or Maelstrom missions as well. Basically, my TAC lists for both Maelstrom and Eternal remains unchanged unless I want to experiment with particular units or a particular playstyle.
jy2 wrote: I am wondering how are gribblies running past a deathstar (like the TWC) when in most likelihood, they will be forming a wall? When playing against a deathstar like a TWC, they tend to spread out to try to trap you. Thus, no matter where you go, they can get to you. In other words, they tend to form a wall when advancing so that they can easily go to the right or the left to catch "escaping" prey. And when I say "catch", I mean multi-assault that unit and whatever else is in front of them as the deathstar has a large foot print that can easily cover multiple units.
I don't think TWC have been terribly successful, but there are two players I see who run them regularly. One runs about 8-10 TWC with a bunch of cyber wolves to eat wounds. He sometimes spreads out, but I usually deploy gants on one flank or the other in an effort to get past him. I use my flyrants on turn one to shoot up that flank of cyber wolves so that he has a harder time multi-assaulting the gants. If he really wants to kill the gants he can, but with my Gargoyles screening for the rest of my army, it means he is giving up on something more critical to me. The other TWC player runs smaller squad(s). Usually he runs them up one flank with dreadnoughts on the other flank. I just run the gants towards the dreds. Sometimes I tarpit one of them on an objective. OS wins the day. I don't think either are a very competitive strategy, and I've beat them both with pretty fluffy list. I would like to figure out a more competitive list to pass along to one of them and try out, but I haven't really seen any better ones than the one he is currently running which can demolish lots of things, but has few answers to Tyranids.
One of my opponents, Frankie from Frontline, runs a really nasty SW deathstar list. It's not particularly balanced, but it'll crush almost anything on the ground with the exception of Invisible deathstars. Basically, he runs 6 TWC Wolf Lords (2+/3++) and about 30-40 fenrisian wolves, which he breaks off into 2 units, each with 3 Lords and 15-20 wolves. He then forms a very wide net where you just cannot get around unless you can fly over it. His list is pretty hardcore, but my dimachaeron showed his lords a thing or two. Hahahaha.... In any case, with your list, as long as you don't mind babysitting your gribblies on the flanks with your flyrants, then that's a viable strategy. It does take away some of the freedom with where you can position your flyrants, but my guess is that as long as they are in range to shoot at the TWC, then you will probably be ok.
jy2 wrote: Against drop pod marines, hate to break the news to you, but those marines and their drop pods are already on top of objectives. So yeah, your gribblies will be staying in your backfield and locking up those marines while trying to contest (and possibly score) those objectives that they are on. And even if they ignore those marines, guess what? They are going to get shot in the back by boltguns unless you want to assault 70-pt combat squads with your 240-pt flyrants, 150-pt dakkafexes or whatever.
1st things first. I don't reserve anything against drop pods, and I would recommend you don't either. If you are reserving stuff against drop pods besides maybe Mawlocs or rippers, you are doing something wrong. The drop pods are going to come in. When they do, they've got to make the choice.
Option 1) Alpha strike. Go after our valuable units like Flyrants. If they do this it is going to hurt. We are usually going to lose something, but all of those marines should either be dead or locked in close combat by turn 2.
Option 2) drop pod onto objectives. This is a much better choice against tyranids, and much more challenging to deal with. The problem isn't marines. A min squad of Hormies can tarpit a combat squaded tac squad plenty long for bigger stuff to come and clean them out. Gants should always be making sure that they are contesting objectives from the stupid OS drop pods or tac squads, but they aren't going to win you the game. That is going to be your bigger stuff. Rippers fare much worse in this scenario because they don't have quite as much mobility or staying power, and if the marines are going to cover up all of the objectives, they've kinda got to hide until they get cleared. They can tarpit a tac squad, but aren't as mobile to give up on one objective and move on to another if it isn't going to happen.
Right, normal strategy against drop pod marines is tarpit them/lock them in combat with gribblies for your bigger units to come and finish off later. Which goes back to what I've been saying - against drop pod armies, most likely your gribblies will never leave your backfield (or it'll be too late to reach the further objectives by the time they can leave your backfield). The pods are already on your objectives. There is no upside for your gribblies to then ignore them and move towards the other objectives only to get shot in the back. On the other hand, they can contest those objectives by locking themselves in combat with the marines. But no matter, they'll still be "trapped" within their deployment area while trying to deal with those marines.
With the exception of the dima (and probably the trygon and now toxicrene), I find Tyranid assault to be rather pathetic nowadays. I've tried assaulting combat squads with my flyrants and that only resulted in them getting locked in combat for 2-3 game turns! Even to just kill 1 combat squad, you need multiple MC's (or MC's + your gribblies) to get the job done. So if your opponent drops 3 drop pods with 6 combat squads in your deployment zone, you can either 1) waste 3-4 turns with your entire army there to deal with them or 2) abandon it if you've got the mobility. Well, with rippers, you can spend the time to deal with those marines in your backfield and grab other objectives as well. That is the flexibility you get with rippers that you don't have with normal gribblies.
Its going to accommodate a large range of possibilities for up to about 2000 pts. Not really fit for Toxicrenes though...
Next weekend there is a small local tournament at the Bowie GW. Probably like 6-10 people at the most. I am taking Skyblight, with two flyrants and rippers for primary at 1500pts. I need to win it so I dont have to pay full price for the new bug kit.
My two Crones have to be harpies, and my harpy has to be a crone.
Nice! I love your idea of placing those gargoyles on the vertical Tyranid terrain.
To answer your question Jy2, I think Dima just became pretty top tier there's no denying that this is exactly what he (and many others) needed.
This spore model is so balanced it's incredible... It's JUST below worth taking on its own merits, meaning spamming it aka Venoms or Serpents or something isn't worthwhile, but it's not a single wasted point when you factor in the transport. Taking 3 Dimas in 3 of those will REK face, at 900 pts it's pricey but delicious. Deepstrike a venom in with them, go to ground for 2+ save! flap a Flyrant up the board, omg synergy is back.
We now have SO many more valid units it's insane, even Pyrovores are REALLY good, they are like S5 Autohitting Biovores. There is no longer best builds, I think there will be so much more variability in this dex.
jy2 wrote: Ok, I am going to play Devil's Advocate and list the disadvantages of the new Tyranid spore pod: 1. Expensive.
I'm definitely on board with you here. I'm struggling a bit to theory hammer out a good use for a 75 point drop pod. I'm leaning toward a TFex as a backfield harasser, though 3 Tyrant Guard with a Tyranid Prime or Devil Gants also might make sense.
A 75 point tax to deep strike a Dakkafex is a bit iffy. I'm leaning toward worth it, but a bit tentative.
I'm also not clear on its usefulness for assaulty stuff like Haruspex, Swarmlord, or Dimacharon. It can't come in until turn 2. Things can't charge on the turn it comes in. So the earliest possible charge is turn 3. With a Dimacharon you are usually looking at a turn 3 charge anyways. If your drop pod should fail to come in you might not get a charge off until turn 5 which would be a huge waste of points.
Mucolids- Giant spore mines. Shrouded. Can assault flyers(hits side armor). S8 Ap3. +1 Strength for each mine.
Sporocyst- Infiltrates, can't move. Synapse units within 6" add 6" to their synapse range. Spawns 3 spore mines, or once per game one mucolid. Has five deathspitters(instinctive fire). Can upgrade like tyrannocyte.
Just to be clear, taking 3 pods with Venom Cannons hits 5x S6 Ap4 blasts, and sends 10 awry though your opponents side of the field. At the price range of a Flyrant, it's obviously less, but comparable, 11 S6 hits, or 5 S6 blasts. Not to mention e Ap4, and the other 10 that did god knows what. It's 70 points more but deepstrikes 3 units here. It's very balanced, as I said JUST under taking on its own merits, and has the riptide syndrome of being far more tanky then it's damage output, meaning it's probably the last thing that will be shot at, the bulk of its points, and usefulness, are used on its deepstrike+unit arrival, but it's still a significant amout of S6 blasts over the course of a game just not worth shooting at.
Instinctive fire- each gun fires at the closest enemy unit independently. So measure from each barrel basically. I foresee a YMDC about how. MCs can only fire two weapons...
jy2 wrote: Ok, I am going to play Devil's Advocate and list the disadvantages of the new Tyranid spore pod:
1. Expensive.
I'm definitely on board with you here. I'm struggling a bit to theory hammer out a good use for a 75 point drop pod. I'm leaning toward a TFex as a backfield harasser, though 3 Tyrant Guard with a Tyranid Prime or Devil Gants also might make sense.
A 75 point tax to deep strike a Dakkafex is a bit iffy. I'm leaning toward worth it, but a bit tentative.
I'm also not clear on its usefulness for assaulty stuff like Haruspex, Swarmlord, or Dimacharon. It can't come in until turn 2. Things can't charge on the turn it comes in. So the earliest possible charge is turn 3. With a Dimacharon you are usually looking at a turn 3 charge anyways. If your drop pod should fail to come in you might not get a charge off until turn 5 which would be a huge waste of points.
Yeah, it's still a T3 charge. However, here is the difference.
1. Now your opponent has only 1 turn to shoot them down.
2. Imagine running 2-3 dimas in drop pods. Now imagine running 2-3 flyrants playing very aggressively as well. Now you've got a truly dangerous MTO Tyranid list where the threats are all dangerous and your opponent only has 1 turn to try to deal with them.
I know I'm excited!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sinful Hero wrote: Instinctive fire- each gun fires at the closest enemy unit independently. So measure from each barrel basically. I foresee a YMDC about how. MCs can only fire two weapons...
That should overrule the standard BRB rules for MC's.
Just like monoliths and ghost ark special shooting rules overrides the standard rules for vehicle shooting.
Sinful Hero wrote: Instinctive fire- each gun fires at the closest enemy unit independently. So measure from each barrel basically. I foresee a YMDC about how. MCs can only fire two weapons...
Bolded the key word there.
I still think the Haruspex will be pretty sub-par. The Trygon can ds and without a 75 point tax to do it yet it's not too hot anymore.
I like the idea of using a Sporocyst for zone control, with some shrouded and area terrain it could be very hard to move, squishier troops won't want to come near it if it's surrounded by Spore Mines.
I'm not sure I'm entirely on board with that. It makes Pyrovores better, but they aren't always going to have meaningful targets. We live in the age of Mech.
Sinful Hero wrote: Mucolids- Giant spore mines. Can assault flyers(hits side armor). S8 Ap3. +1 Strength for each mine.
Sporocyst- Infiltrates, can't move. Synapse units within 6" add 6" to their synapse range. Spawns 3 spore mines, or once per game one mucolid. Has five deathspitters(instinctive fire). Can upgrade like tyrannocyte.
Spoor cyst absolutely useless. For the price of a Malanthrope it gives you an unreliable buff to other Synapse (not better than, you know, actual Synapse which it does not freaking have) and spawns mines with 6" of itself. WOW TERRIFYING.
The Mucolids I'm unsure on. Is that T5 W3? Actually might be very worthwhile DSing in for minimal points, excellent board control and not easily wiped by Bolters like spore mines are.
Does adding Deepstrike to a Dimachaeron(or Any melee unit) really improve it that much? Nobody's ever said much about deep-striking shrikes, trygons, or melee-flyrants. I know I don't have as much experience, but I'm concerned this is just shiny new model syndrome.
Sinful Hero wrote: Mucolids- Giant spore mines. Can assault flyers(hits side armor). S8 Ap3. +1 Strength for each mine.
Sporocyst- Infiltrates, can't move. Synapse units within 6" add 6" to their synapse range. Spawns 3 spore mines, or once per game one mucolid. Has five deathspitters(instinctive fire). Can upgrade like tyrannocyte.
Spoor cyst absolutely useless. For the price of a Malanthrope it gives you an unreliable buff to other Synapse (not better than, you know, actual Synapse which it does not freaking have) and spawns mines with 6" of itself. WOW TERRIFYING.
The Mucolids I'm unsure on. Is that T5 W3? Actually might be very worthwhile DSing in for minimal points, excellent board control and not easily wiped by Bolters like spore mines are.
Sinful Hero wrote: Does adding Deepstrike to a Dimachaeron(or Any melee unit) really improve it that much? Nobody's ever said much about deep-striking shrikes, trygons, or melee-flyrants. I know I don't have as much experience, but I'm concerned this is just shiny new model syndrome.
The dima can be incredibly effective in combat. As a matter of fact, he is our best CC monster currently, even better than the Swarmlord. However, his problem is one of delivery. He is just too slow.
Well, now that problem's just been solved. Put 3 dimas immediately within threat range of your opponent and support them with flyrants and then watch your opponents struggle.
Sinful Hero wrote: Does adding Deepstrike to a Dimachaeron(or Any melee unit) really improve it that much? Nobody's ever said much about deep-striking shrikes, trygons, or melee-flyrants. I know I don't have as much experience, but I'm concerned this is just shiny new model syndrome.
The dima can be incredibly effective in combat. As a matter of fact, he is our best CC monster currently, even better than the Swarmlord. However, his problem is one of delivery. He is just too slow.
Well, now that problem's just been solved. Put 3 dimas immediately within threat range of your opponent and support them with flyrants and then watch your opponents struggle.
That sounds quite promising, particulary if you could get the opponent Pinned from Barbed Stranglers on the Tyrannocyte.
Yup Jy2 I fully agree with you and think Tag is being a bit too skeptical here. These things while pricey make themselves very much worthwhile the points,barely a tax at all if you can even call it that. 1 turn of shooting to stop a Dima, and now it's p much guaranteed to make it to combat if it doesn't die. These are it's 2 biggest weaknesses! Nevermind how easy it is to get them. Reliable 2+ cover save for that 1 turn as well, it's crazy...
Also Pyovores cost as much as Biovores except hit much freaking harder. They are absolutely excellent now. LOL it just sounds wrong. But it's true.
I do believe someone here needs to build a good ol' list with some of these new creatures.... I want to experiment but I do not have time to list build atm! 1750.....
2 flyrants, 2 pods with Dima, another with Tervigon,, maybe a 4th with devilgaunts????
Sinful Hero wrote: Does adding Deepstrike to a Dimachaeron(or Any melee unit) really improve it that much? Nobody's ever said much about deep-striking shrikes, trygons, or melee-flyrants. I know I don't have as much experience, but I'm concerned this is just shiny new model syndrome.
The dima can be incredibly effective in combat. As a matter of fact, he is our best CC monster currently, even better than the Swarmlord. However, his problem is one of delivery. He is just too slow.
Well, now that problem's just been solved. Put 3 dimas immediately within threat range of your opponent and support them with flyrants and then watch your opponents struggle.
So you are looking at a list like this:
CAD Tyrant (2 TL-Devouers, Wings, E.Grubs)
Tyrant (2 TL-Devouers, Wings, E.Grubs)
Malanthrope
3 Rippers (DS)
3 Rippers (DS)
Dimancharon in a Tyrannocyte
Dimancharon in a Tyrannocyte
Dimancharon in a Tyrannocyte
Ally Tyrant (2 TL-Devouers, Wings) <- Had to lose the E.Grubs to get to 1850.
I didn't see a rule saying they can't...
But they'll explode when used right, so that part isn't relevant. The relevant thing is a S8 AP3 hit against anything (including Flyers) that gets charged.
That and a 30 point investment into minimum troops.
rigeld2 wrote: I didn't see a rule saying they can't...
But they'll explode when used right, so that part isn't relevant. The relevant thing is a S8 AP3 hit against anything (including Flyers) that gets charged.
That and a 30 point investment into minimum troops.
They deco can't score, says so under spore mines Living Bomb rule which they share
3" move ain't much, unlikely to ever do anything except hold ground for you and give you map control. That's good however. And a definite contender for the min size troop slot we got going on lol
Sinful Hero wrote: Does adding Deepstrike to a Dimachaeron(or Any melee unit) really improve it that much? Nobody's ever said much about deep-striking shrikes, trygons, or melee-flyrants. I know I don't have as much experience, but I'm concerned this is just shiny new model syndrome.
The dima can be incredibly effective in combat. As a matter of fact, he is our best CC monster currently, even better than the Swarmlord. However, his problem is one of delivery. He is just too slow.
Well, now that problem's just been solved. Put 3 dimas immediately within threat range of your opponent and support them with flyrants and then watch your opponents struggle.
So you are looking at a list like this:
CAD Tyrant (2 TL-Devouers, Wings, E.Grubs)
Tyrant (2 TL-Devouers, Wings, E.Grubs)
Malanthrope
3 Rippers (DS)
3 Rippers (DS)
Dimancharon in a Tyrannocyte
Dimancharon in a Tyrannocyte
Dimancharon in a Tyrannocyte
Ally Tyrant (2 TL-Devouers, Wings) <- Had to lose the E.Grubs to get to 1850.
3 Rippers (DS)
Bastion w/ Comms Relay
It might work. Going to have trouble against MSU.
Personally, I don't think that I would ever run 3 dimas. While good in assault, it does unbalance the army and certain armies (like mechdar, DE, white scar bikers or necrons) can still get from them. 2 is probably the most that I would run, and then bulk up on other units (like running another 2 mawlocs or something).
Deepstrike a Venom in with them and a Mawloc / Gargs / whatever in front of them, and GtG.
1) MC's cannot GTG 2) Venoms can't DS unless in a pod which is a pricey upgrade.
3) You are ignoring reserve rolls and scatter which are highly unreliable.
Deepstrike a Venom in with them and a Mawloc / Gargs / whatever in front of them, and GtG.
I'm 99% sure that MC's cannot voluntarily GtG anymore (the 1% is reserved so that if I am proven wrong, then I can say that I didn't have my BRB with me to verify. ).
beardman3000 wrote: buying these ones, since I just got into it in 7th. but stupidly excited to see if more units can become more useful. and Shuppet.
5 deathspitters
deepstrike, fearless, instinctive fire.
has drifting death
when it lands on impassable terrain, move it the minimum distance where it will be fine. deploy up to 6" away, but not 1" near enemy units (can not really mishap)
can upgrade with barbed strangler or vennom cannon for 25 pts.
I'm sorry, but podding in Pyrovores and melee-Nids were all introduced in 5th(which was much more friendly to assault units), and they all were abandoned/ignored. Are 3 Pyrovores that much more effective than a Devilfex? Or twenty Devilgants? What are you going to deepstrike next to that isn't going to either shoot you(Grav-Cents/Bikes), assault, or just ran away(Wraithknight/Wave Serpent)? Why have things suddenly changed in an edition that hampers assault?
Deepstrike a Venom in with them and a Mawloc / Gargs / whatever in front of them, and GtG.
1) MC's cannot GTG 2) Venoms can't DS unless in a pod which is a pricey upgrade.
3) You are ignoring reserve rolls and scatter which are highly unreliable.
1.) MCs can GtG.
2.) I obviously know Vopes don't have DS so I'm obviously referring to taking a spore for them, and as you'll see from my previous post I don't see the pods as at all inneffecient, being very well costed for their firepower, as I explained earlier
3.) The scatter on the Pods are fairly reliable, as are reserve rolls with comms, it's 40k this far more reliable than expecting one to walk up the board into optimal combat
4.) stop being such a downer
Frozocrone wrote: Pyrovores might see the table now...still better Elites to use but they suddenly became more viable
It looks like T5 W6 4+ so it would be great at plonking on an objective or at least drawing fire away from your army if the opponent wants an objective.
And it moves too! So you can get to that objective if you DS out too far.
Or be like 'nah, I feel like that objective'
What come to my mind is "Idrop off a unit of Termagants, then drift over here and control two VP points...let me see if I get extra points for that. "
Deepstrike a Venom in with them and a Mawloc / Gargs / whatever in front of them, and GtG.
1) MC's cannot GTG 2) Venoms can't DS unless in a pod which is a pricey upgrade.
3) You are ignoring reserve rolls and scatter which are highly unreliable.
1.) MCs can GtG.
2.) I'm obviously countin them as I a pod, and as you'll see from my previous post I don't see the pods as at all inneffecient, being very well costed for their firepower.
3.) The scatter on the Pods are fairly reliable, as are reserve rolls with comms, it's 40k this far more reliable than expecting one to walk up the board into optimal combat
4.) stop being such a downer
Aren't our MCs Fearless, so they can't go to ground?
SHUPPET wrote: Whats the WS / BS on the Toxicrene? looks like it may be playable now
3/3.. I guess that is what Paraxium is for. "Tyranids the ultimate Bioengineered death machine...vs Grots and Tau anyway" But I can see drop podding in a Toxicrene or a Dima as a very fun option. It might even work well in Tourneys. Heck it's almost enough to make me wish I had a Swarmlord. I guess that is why they sell magnets.
Sinful Hero wrote: I'm sorry, but podding in Pyrovores and melee-Nids were all introduced in 5th(which was much more friendly to assault units), and they all were abandoned/ignored. Are 3 Pyrovores that much more effective than a Devilfex? Or twenty Devilgants? What are you going to deepstrike next to that isn't going to either shoot you(Grav-Cents/Bikes), assault, or just ran away(Wraithknight/Wave Serpent)? Why have things suddenly changed in an edition that hampers assault?
For starters they had less rules, worse stats, and cost 150% of the current price. Secondly, they contested the elite slot with the very most important units in the dex, including Hive Guard, Zopes, Doom, and Ymgarls. H'll Venomthropes were useful back then and they couldn't even find a slot. Thirdly, pods were less justifiable on their own merits, being in scoring blobs of tank but offering very little in the way of BLASTING CANNONS IN EVERY DIRECTION, with the new model actually offering quite cost effective firepower for the price.
Sinful Hero wrote: I'm sorry, but podding in Pyrovores and melee-Nids were all introduced in 5th(which was much more friendly to assault units), and they all were abandoned/ignored. Are 3 Pyrovores that much more effective than a Devilfex? Or twenty Devilgants? What are you going to deepstrike next to that isn't going to either shoot you(Grav-Cents/Bikes), assault, or just ran away(Wraithknight/Wave Serpent)? Why have things suddenly changed in an edition that hampers assault?
To me, it isn't really about the Assault. You can run assaulty dimas or you can run shooty dakkafexes and/or pyrovores. Rather it is about how to better Overload your opponents and thus in doing so, you control the board and the Movement of your opponents. It's basically what drop pod marines do to us. Control the Movement phase and you can dictate how the game will play out. Control the Movement phase and you will have an inherent advantage in objectives-based games.
Sinful Hero wrote: I'm sorry, but podding in Pyrovores and melee-Nids were all introduced in 5th(which was much more friendly to assault units), and they all were abandoned/ignored. Are 3 Pyrovores that much more effective than a Devilfex? Or twenty Devilgants? What are you going to deepstrike next to that isn't going to either shoot you(Grav-Cents/Bikes), assault, or just ran away(Wraithknight/Wave Serpent)? Why have things suddenly changed in an edition that hampers assault?
For starters they had less rules, worse stats, and cost 150% of the current price. Secondly, they contested the elite slot with the very most important units in the dex, including Hive Guard, Zopes, Doom, and Ymgarls. H'll Venomthropes were useful back then and they couldn't even find a slot. Thirdly, pods were less justifiable on their own merits, being in scoring blobs of tank but offering very little in the way of BLASTING CANNONS IN EVERY DIRECTION, with the new model actually offering quite cost effective firepower for the price.
The Pod is not the issue at all here- 40pts to add deep-strike plus a contesting MC that could crush vehicles. I want to know why paying 75pts for deepstrike helps melee units currently.
Deepstrike a Venom in with them and a Mawloc / Gargs / whatever in front of them, and GtG.
1) MC's cannot GTG 2) Venoms can't DS unless in a pod which is a pricey upgrade.
3) You are ignoring reserve rolls and scatter which are highly unreliable.
1.) MCs can GtG.
2.) I'm obviously countin them as I a pod, and as you'll see from my previous post I don't see the pods as at all inneffecient, being very well costed for their firepower.
3.) The scatter on the Pods are fairly reliable, as are reserve rolls with comms, it's 40k this far more reliable than expecting one to walk up the board into optimal combat
4.) stop being such a downer
Aren't our MCs Fearless, so they can't go to ground?
The Dima (who my original statement was about, although it's not visible in the quotes) is not fearless.
Sinful Hero wrote: I'm sorry, but podding in Pyrovores and melee-Nids were all introduced in 5th(which was much more friendly to assault units), and they all were abandoned/ignored. Are 3 Pyrovores that much more effective than a Devilfex? Or twenty Devilgants? What are you going to deepstrike next to that isn't going to either shoot you(Grav-Cents/Bikes), assault, or just ran away(Wraithknight/Wave Serpent)? Why have things suddenly changed in an edition that hampers assault?
For starters they had less rules, worse stats, and cost 150% of the current price. Secondly, they contested the elite slot with the very most important units in the dex, including Hive Guard, Zopes, Doom, and Ymgarls. H'll Venomthropes were useful back then and they couldn't even find a slot. Thirdly, pods were less justifiable on their own merits, being in scoring blobs of tank but offering very little in the way of BLASTING CANNONS IN EVERY DIRECTION, with the new model actually offering quite cost effective firepower for the price.
The Pod is not the issue at all here- 40pts to add deep-strike plus a contesting MC that could crush vehicles. I want to know why paying 75pts for deepstrike helps melee units currently.
Pyrovore is pretty versatile, melee being an upside, the selling point being the fact that it nukes a squad preferably in ruins or cover with S5 auto hits, somewhat like Biovores except more risqué, aggressive, hard hitting, and not in your HQ slot.
I'm sure you don't need explanation of how the Dima / Dakkafex are good in these things?
Sinful Hero wrote: Does adding Deepstrike to a Dimachaeron(or Any melee unit) really improve it that much? Nobody's ever said much about deep-striking shrikes, trygons, or melee-flyrants. I know I don't have as much experience, but I'm concerned this is just shiny new model syndrome.
Sinful Hero wrote: Mucolids- Giant spore mines. Can assault flyers(hits side armor). S8 Ap3. +1 Strength for each mine.
Sporocyst- Infiltrates, can't move. Synapse units within 6" add 6" to their synapse range. Spawns 3 spore mines, or once per game one mucolid. Has five deathspitters(instinctive fire). Can upgrade like tyrannocyte.
Spoor cyst absolutely useless. For the price of a Malanthrope it gives you an unreliable buff to other Synapse (not better than, you know, actual Synapse which it does not freaking have) and spawns mines with 6" of itself. WOW TERRIFYING.
The Mucolids I'm unsure on. Is that T5 W3? Actually might be very worthwhile DSing in for minimal points, excellent board control and not easily wiped by Bolters like spore mines are.
HArd to tell, but I forgot to mention Shrouded.
Yeah, I don't know how it will play out...But I see it as Fortifications that I can Infiltrate. Not going to be a "must have" but it just might be a meta changing option.
SHUPPET wrote: Whats the WS / BS on the Toxicrene? looks like it may be playable now
3/3.. I guess that is what Paraxium is for. "Tyranids the ultimate Bioengineered death machine...vs Grots and Tau anyway" But I can see drop podding in a Toxicrene or a Dima as a very fun option. It might even work well in Tourneys. Heck it's almost enough to make me wish I had a Swarmlord. I guess that is why they sell magnets.
Whats a Paraxium?
Also, Swarmy still too over costed. As jy2 said, he's just a worse Dima, his arguable benefits are not worth 120 pts
They may never Go to Ground, voluntarily or otherwise.
Ah. Maybe I'm wrong on this. Don't have my book on me and Dima is the only non fearless MC in the dex so it's never been relevant to me before now. I googled before I posted and all I found was people saying mcs CAN gtg in 7th, so damn
rigeld2 wrote: I didn't see a rule saying they can't...
But they'll explode when used right, so that part isn't relevant. The relevant thing is a S8 AP3 hit against anything (including Flyers) that gets charged.
That and a 30 point investment into minimum troops.
Still useful for Mealstrom...I score this turn, if you contest I blow up in your face. Come and get me If you're hard enough. I can always tunnel in some Rippers later, if needed.
Sinful Hero wrote: I'm sorry, but podding in Pyrovores and melee-Nids were all introduced in 5th(which was much more friendly to assault units), and they all were abandoned/ignored. Are 3 Pyrovores that much more effective than a Devilfex? Or twenty Devilgants? What are you going to deepstrike next to that isn't going to either shoot you(Grav-Cents/Bikes), assault, or just ran away(Wraithknight/Wave Serpent)? Why have things suddenly changed in an edition that hampers assault?
The main reason assault units weren't popular in 5th was the old vehicle rules. If they moved you had to hit them on 5's or 6's and even if you landed a blow most non-monstrous creature units couldn't really do much to wreck a vehicle reliably. Once the charge was complete, the vehicle would then just tank-shock or otherwise go about its merry way and blow the offending melee units away with a flamer from the top hatch. Shooting units were pretty much the only things able to open up the tin-cans so the rest of the army could clean up.
In 7th, things are far more friendly to assault units in that one regard. Hitting on 3's most of the time and HPs mean even a unit of AG gaunts will generally wreck a vehicle on the turn they charge it. It is harder to get the charge overall, but if you deploy within a few inches of the target you only need to weather one turn of shooting opposed to 2-3 turns (very possible if you have multiple large units arriving at once - something will get through and escape can be blocked off).
Deepstrike a Venom in with them and a Mawloc / Gargs / whatever in front of them, and GtG.
1) MC's cannot GTG 2) Venoms can't DS unless in a pod which is a pricey upgrade.
3) You are ignoring reserve rolls and scatter which are highly unreliable.
1.) MCs can GtG.
2.) I'm obviously countin them as I a pod, and as you'll see from my previous post I don't see the pods as at all inneffecient, being very well costed for their firepower.
3.) The scatter on the Pods are fairly reliable, as are reserve rolls with comms, it's 40k this far more reliable than expecting one to walk up the board into optimal combat
4.) stop being such a downer
Aren't our MCs Fearless, so they can't go to ground?
Spore Cysts seem pretty good. They are infiltrating, shrouded LoS blockers that can deny area around objectives. And they give you free annoying units! They are not super crazy, but could give us some more options.
All these new units will definitely allow a greater variety of Tyranid play styles.
Wow, this opens up a ton of options! Honestly I'm thinking Hive Guard come out big on this one as well. The ability to drop into side/rear armor makes their damage potential skyrocket. Right now I'm thinking of bringing back large termagant units and maybe even Tervigons. They can spawn after disembarking, which is flat out nasty... Also, we are now amazing at Maelstrom missions!
Units I think went from bad/mediocre to viable/good:
The WD pics promise a "Psychic terror" next week... and Zoanthropes/Venomthropes are now off the GW store. I'm thinking a 3 part kit with those two and... the...
They may never Go to Ground, voluntarily or otherwise.
Ah. Maybe I'm wrong on this. Don't have my book on me and Dima is the only non fearless MC in the dex so it's never been relevant to me before now. I googled before I posted and all I found was people saying mcs CAN gtg in 7th, so damn
They used to be able to in 6th.
Still, with Intervening Models and Venom, that's a 3+ cover to go with the Armour Save. Deploy from the Tyrannocyte into cover with Venom and have a 2+ cover, then just leap out on your turn before you charge (re-rolling if need be)
Sinful Hero wrote: I'm sorry, but podding in Pyrovores and melee-Nids were all introduced in 5th(which was much more friendly to assault units), and they all were abandoned/ignored. Are 3 Pyrovores that much more effective than a Devilfex? Or twenty Devilgants? What are you going to deepstrike next to that isn't going to either shoot you(Grav-Cents/Bikes), assault, or just ran away(Wraithknight/Wave Serpent)? Why have things suddenly changed in an edition that hampers assault?
For starters they had less rules, worse stats, and cost 150% of the current price. Secondly, they contested the elite slot with the very most important units in the dex, including Hive Guard, Zopes, Doom, and Ymgarls. H'll Venomthropes were useful back then and they couldn't even find a slot. Thirdly, pods were less justifiable on their own merits, being in scoring blobs of tank but offering very little in the way of BLASTING CANNONS IN EVERY DIRECTION, with the new model actually offering quite cost effective firepower for the price.
The Pod is not the issue at all here- 40pts to add deep-strike plus a contesting MC that could crush vehicles. I want to know why paying 75pts for deepstrike helps melee units currently.
Because they don't have to get shot crawling across the board? You have 1 turn to shoot and then they are on you. If they run away, then you have board control.
Aside from that, nowhere else in the book are you getting 5 venom cannons, or barbed stranglers for 100pts. That's a bargain for nids.
AdeptSister wrote: Spore Cysts seem pretty good. They are infiltrating, shrouded LoS blockers that can deny area around objectives. And they give you free annoying units! They are not super crazy, but could give us some more options.
All these new units will definitely allow a greater variety of Tyranid play styles.
Its the Mucolids(big spore mines) that have shrouded. Sporocysts just infiltrate with five Deathspitters/Venom Cannons/Barbed Stranglers and buff synapse units. And make mines of course.
SHUPPET wrote: Whats the WS / BS on the Toxicrene? looks like it may be playable now
3/3.. I guess that is what Paraxium is for. "Tyranids the ultimate Bioengineered death machine...vs Grots and Tau anyway" But I can see drop podding in a Toxicrene or a Dima as a very fun option. It might even work well in Tourneys. Heck it's almost enough to make me wish I had a Swarmlord. I guess that is why they sell magnets.
Whats a Paraxium?
Also, Swarmy still too over costed. As jy2 said, he's just a worse Dima, his arguable benefits are not worth 120 pts
Sorry Typing is not my best skill. Swarmy can give PE to the instinctive shooting can't she? And it is a big bad Power of the Hive Mind source of WCs. Vs fools who depend on MCs (Wraithknights and Riptides mostly) a Deepstriking Swarmy could be very frightening. Though I suspect you'd need to pod in something to screen with...like say 30 Spinegaunts? (with or without Devilgaunts to flavor) I admit it is very unlikely to be a winning strategy...but science requires experimentation, that is what makes it different from philosophy.
Sinful Hero wrote: I'm sorry, but podding in Pyrovores and melee-Nids were all introduced in 5th(which was much more friendly to assault units), and they all were abandoned/ignored. Are 3 Pyrovores that much more effective than a Devilfex? Or twenty Devilgants? What are you going to deepstrike next to that isn't going to either shoot you(Grav-Cents/Bikes), assault, or just ran away(Wraithknight/Wave Serpent)? Why have things suddenly changed in an edition that hampers assault?
For starters they had less rules, worse stats, and cost 150% of the current price. Secondly, they contested the elite slot with the very most important units in the dex, including Hive Guard, Zopes, Doom, and Ymgarls. H'll Venomthropes were useful back then and they couldn't even find a slot. Thirdly, pods were less justifiable on their own merits, being in scoring blobs of tank but offering very little in the way of BLASTING CANNONS IN EVERY DIRECTION, with the new model actually offering quite cost effective firepower for the price.
The Pod is not the issue at all here- 40pts to add deep-strike plus a contesting MC that could crush vehicles. I want to know why paying 75pts for deepstrike helps melee units currently.
Pyrovore is pretty versatile, melee being an upside, the selling point being the fact that it nukes a squad preferably in ruins or cover with S5 auto hits, somewhat like Biovores except more risqué, aggressive, hard hitting, and not in your HQ slot.
I'm sure you don't need explanation of how the Dima / Dakkafex are good in these things?
Dakkafexes are obvious- is that one turn sitting in the face of your opponent going to help the Dimachareon? I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on that.
jifel wrote: Wow, this opens up a ton of options! Honestly I'm thinking Hive Guard come out big on this one as well. The ability to drop into side/rear armor makes their damage potential skyrocket. Right now I'm thinking of bringing back large termagant units and maybe even Tervigons. They can spawn after disembarking, which is flat out nasty... Also, we are now amazing at Maelstrom missions!
Units I think went from bad/mediocre to viable/good:
Not sure how Lictors benefit from this at all except for possibly guiding in other units, which has generally been decided as p crappy idea. Haruspex is still wildly outclassed for it points and you'd be better off with a Dakkafex 99 times out of 100.
Tervigons benefit very little, this does little for them that outflanking does not already do.
Hive Guard I see very little use for in a pod, ok 3 S8 hits on rear armour, assuming Av10 that's 2-3 glances. For 5 points cheaper 20 Devilgants get 7 glances and make use of your troop slot, and threaten a whole lot more other things than HG. I don't think there is anywhere near enough FA14/RA12 to justify HG as that's literally the only time they are more useful in a pod than either walking HG, or Devilgants. and that's assuming your opponent doesn't realise this and conceal his rear armour, I'm pretty sure it's only a few long range IG tanks with this profile right
The rest of these however I agree with although you can swap Terms with Pyrovores IMO
I think 20 devil gants DSing is the main competitive unit to take. I also may see the mucolid's replacing ripper swarms to an extent, as they have the same 3 wound/T3 profile only cheaper (and arguably more dangerous when threatened). Plus they dont bite each other.
Comms relay involved, but turn 2 you DS 3 dakkafexes and 1-3 Devilgant units, mawloc and possibly even DS your flyrants. Just castle up the rest of your army for turn 1 to negate alpha strike armies.
Id enjoy that against serpent spam or tau gunline.
Sinful Hero wrote: I'm sorry, but podding in Pyrovores and melee-Nids were all introduced in 5th(which was much more friendly to assault units), and they all were abandoned/ignored. Are 3 Pyrovores that much more effective than a Devilfex? Or twenty Devilgants? What are you going to deepstrike next to that isn't going to either shoot you(Grav-Cents/Bikes), assault, or just ran away(Wraithknight/Wave Serpent)? Why have things suddenly changed in an edition that hampers assault?
For starters they had less rules, worse stats, and cost 150% of the current price. Secondly, they contested the elite slot with the very most important units in the dex, including Hive Guard, Zopes, Doom, and Ymgarls. H'll Venomthropes were useful back then and they couldn't even find a slot. Thirdly, pods were less justifiable on their own merits, being in scoring blobs of tank but offering very little in the way of BLASTING CANNONS IN EVERY DIRECTION, with the new model actually offering quite cost effective firepower for the price.
The Pod is not the issue at all here- 40pts to add deep-strike plus a contesting MC that could crush vehicles. I want to know why paying 75pts for deepstrike helps melee units currently.
Pyrovore is pretty versatile, melee being an upside, the selling point being the fact that it nukes a squad preferably in ruins or cover with S5 auto hits, somewhat like Biovores except more risqué, aggressive, hard hitting, and not in your HQ slot.
I'm sure you don't need explanation of how the Dima / Dakkafex are good in these things?
Dakkafexes are obvious- is that one turn sitting in the face of your opponent going to help the Dimachareon? I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on that.
Will it help it? Vastly. I can see a debate for it not being enough, as the Dima was in a pretty bad state before pods, and still struggles with speed even landing face to face with its target. 1 turn of shooting as opposed to 3-5 is pretty big, especially since you were unlikely to get an optimal combat even after all that. I was probably the biggest anti-Dima person on these forums, but with a pod, I gotta say that actually puts it in a really good place.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frozocrone wrote: There is practically no useless units for Nids now.
I saw practically, the Malefactor still appears to be utter gak
Harpy
hive guard
Trygon
Tervigon
Old one eye
Skyslasher swarms
Spore Mines
Raveners
Haruspex
Sinful Hero wrote: I'm sorry, but podding in Pyrovores and melee-Nids were all introduced in 5th(which was much more friendly to assault units), and they all were abandoned/ignored. Are 3 Pyrovores that much more effective than a Devilfex? Or twenty Devilgants? What are you going to deepstrike next to that isn't going to either shoot you(Grav-Cents/Bikes), assault, or just ran away(Wraithknight/Wave Serpent)? Why have things suddenly changed in an edition that hampers assault?
For starters they had less rules, worse stats, and cost 150% of the current price. Secondly, they contested the elite slot with the very most important units in the dex, including Hive Guard, Zopes, Doom, and Ymgarls. H'll Venomthropes were useful back then and they couldn't even find a slot. Thirdly, pods were less justifiable on their own merits, being in scoring blobs of tank but offering very little in the way of BLASTING CANNONS IN EVERY DIRECTION, with the new model actually offering quite cost effective firepower for the price.
The Pod is not the issue at all here- 40pts to add deep-strike plus a contesting MC that could crush vehicles. I want to know why paying 75pts for deepstrike helps melee units currently.
Pyrovore is pretty versatile, melee being an upside, the selling point being the fact that it nukes a squad preferably in ruins or cover with S5 auto hits, somewhat like Biovores except more risqué, aggressive, hard hitting, and not in your HQ slot.
I'm sure you don't need explanation of how the Dima / Dakkafex are good in these things?
Dakkafexes are obvious- is that one turn sitting in the face of your opponent going to help the Dimachareon? I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on that.
Will it help it? Vastly. I can see a debate for it not being enough, as the Dima was in a pretty bad state before pods, and still struggles with speed even landing face to face with its target. 1 turn of shooting as opposed to 3-5 is pretty big, especially since you were unlikely to get an optimal combat even after all that. I was probably the biggest anti-Dima person on these forums, but with a pod, I gotta say that actually puts it in a really good place.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frozocrone wrote: There is practically no useless units for Nids now.
I saw practically, the Malefactor still appears to be utter gak
Harpy
hive guard
Trygon
Tervigon
Swarmlord
Old one eye
Skyslasher swarms
Spore Mines
Raveners
Haruspex
But yes the list is much smaller
I wouldn't say Hive Guard or Swarmlord are useless now.
Wouldn't a Devilfex be a better choice though? It will shoot twice and charge(along with the pod's shooting), while the Dima will just be relying on the pod's shooting until it eventually charges. Basically 24 twinlinked S6 shots, a charge, and pod versus pod's shooting and a charge.
Iechine wrote: I think 20 devil gants DSing is the main competitive unit to take. I also may see the mucolid's replacing ripper swarms to an extent, as they have the same 3 wound/T3 profile only cheaper (and arguably more dangerous when threatened). Plus they dont bite each other.
Interesting stuff to think about for sure.
20 is expensive...I'd definitely take a padding of 5 or 6 stock gants to die before the line of devils.
HG most definitely useless, in fact that got WORSE than before by being p much the one of the only unit not to benefit from its, and since he was already an drastically underpowered unit the disparity between him and his competition is even further slanted against him
Swarmlord fair enough, not unplayable. Just unlikely to ever be better than a bastion + Dima I suspect.
Haha yes SHUPPET, completely forgot about all of them
The Trygon in particular has no place in Tyranids at all now. It's last viable tactic IMO, was to Deep Strike and have a tunnel for DevilGants to come out of and start shooting, which has just been usurped by the Pods that do it cheaper and better as they can fire better guns (and unload the DevilGants) the turn they come in.
The only real use of the Trygon now is to have the tunnel for Endless Swarm, where you can regenerate Gaunts. But in a tournament setting you may be limited to two sources - I would find it difficult to give up Skyblight/Living Artillery for Endless Swarm (am aware of other formations, these just happen to be the most notable formations for Nids).
Sinful Hero wrote: Wouldn't a Devilfex be a better choice though? It will shoot twice and charge(along with the pod's shooting), while the Dima will just be relying on the pod's shooting until it eventually charges. Basically 24 twinlinked S6 shots, a charge, and pod versus pod's shooting and a charge.
Well, depends how you look at Dimas charge I guess. It's really strong and hits MUCH harder than the 18x S6 Ap- hits the Carnifex will make by that point. Obviously he's worse vs smaller things, and his inability to pick targets was always a big issue for him. But Now he can force himself upon whichever big mofo he shall choose. Also, he is much harder to bring down, especially since he can get his Catalyst much quicker and more reliably now. He also takes up a next to useless FA slot instead of a critical HS one which may be relevant. There is targets out there that a Dima can face rush into and a carnifex cannot however, eg things like Thunderwolves.
But you are right. Carnifex is STILL a better model and much more versatile, and should definitely be taken over a Dima.
The Dima is just very playable now however and a couple may just be impossible for many teams to stop, they can really sweep. No longer an uncompetitive choice. Definitely in a good place now.
How useful it is remains to be seen however, you may be right and it's use may be too niche to justify over a Dakkafex. Or maybe it's added durability and RAMPAGEMODE might be enough to give it enough of an edge in enough match ups to be justifiable. One things for certain however, it's no longer the autolose it once was. Yesterday. Lol.
Unmodified:
Odds of a pod coming in turn 2: 66%
Odds of a pod coming in turn 3: 22%
Odds of a pod coming in turn 4: 11%
With rerolls from comms relay or the warlord trait:
Odds of a pod coming in turn 2: 89%
Odds of a pod coming in turn 3: 10%
Odds of a pod coming in turn 4: 1%
With Swarmlord's +1 to reserves:
Odds of a pod coming in turn 2: 83%
Odds of a pod coming in turn 3: 14%
Odds of a pod coming in turn 4: 3%
I generally wouldn't be all that worried about 11% but yesterday I lost a game to that 11%.
So, in cases of 2 or more pods I highly recommend a Comms Relay.
----------------------
What does everyone think of the Instinctive Fire Rule
Each weapon on this model automatically fires at the nearest enemy unit within range and Line of sight. The shots are resolved at the end of the shooting phase before morale checks are taken.
Each Weapon can fire at a different target, but they cannot be fired in any other way or at any other Phase?[The last word is extremely hard to make out, I think it is saying that they can't overwatch]
So It feels like it grants permission to fire all 5 guns, but it feels like the writers of that rule don't know an MC from a vehicle, and expects us to draw line of sight from the gun instead of the model. Is it telling us to do that?
Three deep-striking Shock Cannon Hive Guard might be worth a try against a parking lot, especially if you throw in the Electroshock Grubs on a Tervigon/Tyrannofex/Tyrant to finish things off.
Sinful Hero wrote: As was pointed out to me before, Devilfexes put out so much shooting the only niche Hive Guard have are against AV13+ and jinking vehicles.
Dakkafexes are far better here, but it was actually DevilGANTS that I pointed out as being better than them, who still out damage hive guard EVEN VERSE JINKING SKIMMERS, and for cheaper too, which shows how bottom of the barrel HG really are right now.
Sinful Hero wrote: As was pointed out to me before, Devilfexes put out so much shooting the only niche Hive Guard have are against AV13+ and jinking vehicles.
Dakkafexes are far better here, but it was actually DevilGANTS that I pointed out as being better than them, who still out damage hive guard EVEN VERSE JINKING SKIMMERS, and for cheaper too, which shows how bottom of the barrel HG really are right now.
I was actually referring to I think tag(?) putting me in my place on them- could have been you. Could have been both actually- I was comparing Hive Guard to Devilfexes(but I wasn't counting the second set of devourers in my head). Hive Guard even only have a marginal benefit against jinking skimmers verses Fexes. Flyrants can sometimes be enough to handle AV-13-14 you might encounter, so Hive Guard have a very hard time finding a place.
Sinful Hero wrote: @tag It is. Draw LOS and range from each gun is what the rule explicitly tells you to do- and each gun can fire at a different target.
I actually think that last line refers to Synapse doesn't help the instinctive Fire rule. It's always closest.
Wow that's gunna be ridiculously time consuming, especially considering if they are all in different positions on the model making multiple LoS checks necessary, it's blasts so you have to line up scatters, and have to roll even if they couldn't wound because of scatter chance, and have to do this 5 times, and then have to do it all again for every single pod.... wtf thats just ridiculous writing for a massive scale tabletop game
Sinful Hero wrote: @tag It is. Draw LOS and range from each gun is what the rule explicitly tells you to do- and each gun can fire at a different target.
I actually think that last line refers to Synapse doesn't help the instinctive Fire rule. It's always closest.
Wow that's gunna be ridiculously time consuming, especially considering they are all in different positions on the model making multiple LoS checks necessary, it's blasts so you have to line up scatters, and have to roll even if they couldn't wound because of scatter chance, and have to do this 5 times, and then have to do it all again for every single pod.... wtf thats just ridiculous writing for a massive scale tabletop game
It could be just assuming you'll take Deathspitters every time. No need for placement and scatterdie then.
Do you have to place the blast markers on the closest model? So they won't be nearly as effective as placing them in the center of a blob. I suppose since it says unit you wouldn't have to do that...
Sinful Hero wrote: @tag It is. Draw LOS and range from each gun is what the rule explicitly tells you to do- and each gun can fire at a different target.
I actually think that last line refers to Synapse doesn't override the instinctive Fire rule. It's always closest.
Sinful Hero wrote: As was pointed out to me before, Devilfexes put out so much shooting the only niche Hive Guard have are against AV13+ and jinking vehicles.
Dakkafexes are far better here, but it was actually DevilGANTS that I pointed out as being better than them, who still out damage hive guard EVEN VERSE JINKING SKIMMERS, and for cheaper too, which shows how bottom of the barrel HG really are right now.
I was actually referring to I think tag(?) putting me in my place on them- could have been you. Could have been both actually- I was comparing Hive Guard to Devilfexes(but I wasn't counting the second set of devourers in my head). Hive Guard even only have a marginal benefit against jinking skimmers verses Fexes. Flyrants can sometimes be enough to handle AV-13-14 you might encounter, so Hive Guard have a very hard time finding a place.
Oh you mean from a bit ago, yeah well there's that, but I think the idea for resurgence was usinHG for S8 rear armour with pods. However, the same effectiveness competition stands with Dakkafex, and Devilgants completely outclass
Sinful Hero wrote: @tag It is. Draw LOS and range from each gun is what the rule explicitly tells you to do- and each gun can fire at a different target.
I actually think that last line refers to Synapse doesn't override the instinctive Fire rule. It's always closest.
Sinful Hero wrote: As was pointed out to me before, Devilfexes put out so much shooting the only niche Hive Guard have are against AV13+ and jinking vehicles.
Dakkafexes are far better here, but it was actually DevilGANTS that I pointed out as being better than them, who still out damage hive guard EVEN VERSE JINKING SKIMMERS, and for cheaper too, which shows how bottom of the barrel HG really are right now.
I was actually referring to I think tag(?) putting me in my place on them- could have been you. Could have been both actually- I was comparing Hive Guard to Devilfexes(but I wasn't counting the second set of devourers in my head). Hive Guard even only have a marginal benefit against jinking skimmers verses Fexes. Flyrants can sometimes be enough to handle AV-13-14 you might encounter, so Hive Guard have a very hard time finding a place.
Oh you mean from a bit ago, yeah well there's that, but I think the idea for resurgence was usinHG for S8 rear armour with pods. However, the same effectiveness competition stands with Dakkafex, and Devilgants completely outclass
Unless you're facing rear-armor 11+, then Devilgants are pretty much useless there. Pretty much Hive Guard are good at 13+(So Necrons?).
Sinful Hero wrote: @tag It is. Draw LOS and range from each gun is what the rule explicitly tells you to do- and each gun can fire at a different target.
I actually think that last line refers to Synapse doesn't help the instinctive Fire rule. It's always closest.
Wow that's gunna be ridiculously time consuming, especially considering they are all in different positions on the model making multiple LoS checks necessary, it's blasts so you have to line up scatters, and have to roll even if they couldn't wound because of scatter chance, and have to do this 5 times, and then have to do it all again for every single pod.... wtf thats just ridiculous writing for a massive scale tabletop game
It could be just assuming you'll take Deathspitters every time. No need for placement and scatterdie then.
Do you have to place the blast markers on the closest model? So they won't be nearly as effective as placing them in the center of a blob. I suppose since it says unit you wouldn't have to do that...
That's a loss of efficiency as the best way to kit these things is without a doubt 5 venom cannons.
And yeah you are correct on that ruling.
Anyone know what the placing the weapons is like in relation to the model? Are we talking side sponsons or dozerblades here?
Not much FA13/14+RA11/12 in the game making taking HG in a pod extremely niche. Because if they have equal front armour, the pod for rear armour is wasted points, if they have weaker rear armour it's usually 10. The very few relevant vehicles in competitive play that have a different profile are nowhere near common enough to sacrificing this amount for a slight buff in DPS against their rear armour, and all with a massive range advantage allowing them to outplay you by sitting on the back denying your pod rearm armour shots and more or less wasting a 250 pt (Flyrant size) dedication of HG+crone. Making HG not just niche but borderline useless and terms still more useful than them most likely.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Zopes. In the edition of jink, are Zoanthropes even viable assuming you land pod in optimL range, use 4 or more warp charge to even have a positive chance of rolling to manifest, hit off a single BS4 roll,and then successfully pen the feth out of something?
"I jink one of my 6 x65 pt Venoms, or look at I rolled a 4, better luck next time"
As an MC all the weapons should have a 360 degree arc of fire.
Zopes would probably be better for podding in Psychic Scream. The single shot Warp Blast requires too many rolls. Roll to manifest, roll to hit, roll to penetrate, and then any applicable saves. I don't think taking away the range problem helps.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In most cases you're still only taking away a single hullpoint and maybe stunning it for a turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unless that's exactly what you need of course.
Sinful Hero wrote: As an MC all the weapons should have a 360 degree arc of fire.
Zopes would probably be better for podding in Psychic Scream. The single shot Warp Blast requires too many rolls. Roll to manifest, roll to hit, roll to penetrate, and then any applicable saves. I don't think taking away the range problem helps.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In most cases you're still only taking away a single hullpoint and maybe stunning it for a turn.
Yup I agree. Except in an army with Zopes you don't want to be running pods, and vice versa, the only time these two have any synergy is when you roll the scream, as far as army compositions they work very badly together
Sinful Hero wrote: As an MC all the weapons should have a 360 degree arc of fire.
Zopes would probably be better for podding in Psychic Scream. The single shot Warp Blast requires too many rolls. Roll to manifest, roll to hit, roll to penetrate, and then any applicable saves. I don't think taking away the range problem helps.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In most cases you're still only taking away a single hullpoint and maybe stunning it for a turn.
Yup I agree. Except in an army with Zopes you don't want to be running pods, and vice versa, the only time these two have any synergy is when you roll the scream, as far as army compositions they work very badly together
Well, the pod's not a DT, so you can always make the decision on the fly before you deploy. Against AM/IG I could definitely see some value in dropping a Zoan behind a large blob that is hiding behind an Aegis, and hitting it from behind with the large blast. You could negate all their cover saves and potentially kill the priest hiding in the back. Plus, y'know, five venom cannons.
3 for 45 points, deep strike shrouded, fearless T3 and W3 each, so not trivial to kill off, if they assault next turn they do a str 10 ap 3 large blast that ignores cover saves and can hit flyers/Swooping monstrous creatures.
hope they have a separate kit of 3.
the pod does make the toxicrene look not so terrible now
Sinful Hero wrote: @tag It is. Draw LOS and range from each gun is what the rule explicitly tells you to do- and each gun can fire at a different target.
I actually think that last line refers to Synapse doesn't help the instinctive Fire rule. It's always closest.
Wow that's gunna be ridiculously time consuming, especially considering if they are all in different positions on the model making multiple LoS checks necessary, it's blasts so you have to line up scatters, and have to roll even if they couldn't wound because of scatter chance, and have to do this 5 times, and then have to do it all again for every single pod.... wtf thats just ridiculous writing for a massive scale tabletop game
There is a 30K drop pod that works this way. Only, it fires 36" S8 AP3 Assault 2 at BS 4 instead of 18" S5 AP5 Assault 3 at BS2.
There's some nasty gak you can do with Sporocyst since they can infiltrate. They're 6 inches wide, plus add .75 on each side for the enemy not to move through.
You can block off whole portions of the board with them to anything that is not a Jump Infantry or Skimmer. Kind of interesting since they can make Spore Mine Clusters.
Plus this means that you can just infiltrate 1 out of LOS of your opponents army, then just reserve the rest of your army.
Hollismason wrote: There's some nasty gak you can do with Sporocyst since they can infiltrate. They're 6 inches wide, plus add .75 on each side for the enemy not to move through.
You can block off whole portions of the board with them to anything that is not a Jump Infantry or Skimmer. Kind of interesting since they can make Spore Mine Clusters.
Plus this means that you can just infiltrate 1 out of LOS of your opponents army, then just reserve the rest of your army.
Kind of neat.
Why are they so big? 6" wide? Wider than a Barbed Hierodule (5.5")? They don't need to be gigantic.
Look at the picture of it. It's claws extend outward, it's like the size of a large Blast if not bigger.
Six of them with weapons would be 600 points and I think that'd produce 18 Spore Mines a Turn. You could then I guess drop pod in that Tyranid that poops other Tyranids.
So put these in near the deployment zone then Drop Pod in the Mother tyranid , poop out some Termagants in your opponents deployment zone and you are good to go.
Sinful Hero wrote: @tag It is. Draw LOS and range from each gun is what the rule explicitly tells you to do- and each gun can fire at a different target.
I actually think that last line refers to Synapse doesn't help the instinctive Fire rule. It's always closest.
Wow that's gunna be ridiculously time consuming, especially considering they are all in different positions on the model making multiple LoS checks necessary, it's blasts so you have to line up scatters, and have to roll even if they couldn't wound because of scatter chance, and have to do this 5 times, and then have to do it all again for every single pod.... wtf thats just ridiculous writing for a massive scale tabletop game
It could be just assuming you'll take Deathspitters every time. No need for placement and scatterdie then.
Do you have to place the blast markers on the closest model? So they won't be nearly as effective as placing them in the center of a blob. I suppose since it says unit you wouldn't have to do that...
I'd interpret that as place the 'hole" of the Blast over the closest.
Sinful Hero wrote: @tag It is. Draw LOS and range from each gun is what the rule explicitly tells you to do- and each gun can fire at a different target.
I actually think that last line refers to Synapse doesn't help the instinctive Fire rule. It's always closest.
Wow that's gunna be ridiculously time consuming, especially considering they are all in different positions on the model making multiple LoS checks necessary, it's blasts so you have to line up scatters, and have to roll even if they couldn't wound because of scatter chance, and have to do this 5 times, and then have to do it all again for every single pod.... wtf thats just ridiculous writing for a massive scale tabletop game
It could be just assuming you'll take Deathspitters every time. No need for placement and scatterdie then.
Do you have to place the blast markers on the closest model? So they won't be nearly as effective as placing them in the center of a blob. I suppose since it says unit you wouldn't have to do that...
I'd interpret that as place the 'hole" of the Blast over the closest.
That's not how it works. The unit is selected for you, but you can target any model in that unit.
Psychic Resonator: Any friendly Synapse creature within 6" of this model adds 6" to its synapse range. Does this mean that a Synapse creature benefits from this boost once, regardless of how many Psychic Resonators are within 6" or does this mean that Synapse range is boosted by 6" for EACH Psychic Resonator within 6"?
I don't think the pods are going to break the bank. They're a nice leveler for our army, bringing a lot of stuff up in usefulness, but I don't think it'll take the overall competitiveness to another level. Maybe via dropping Dimas.
I mean, the gun upgrades are just the basic BS/VC, not the heavy MC versions, and depending on how your group rules it, there's a decent chance they'll be treated like vehicle weapons so they will rarely shoot more than 3. They're not bad at all, but definitely not deadly gunboats.
Drop pod armies were nothing obscene in 5th/6th, and not much has really changed since.
The biggest advantage of the pod is not taking FOC and the flexibility of not being a DT. One should appear in most lists, as it allows you to adapt your force projection to the enemy's army. Got a castling army? Dima goes in. Got a hyper-aggressive army you want to keep space? 20 gants go in (Instant 18" roadblock). Need mobility to grab far objectives? Obsec troop. Solo zoey rolled up psychic scream? Go play with them.
The fact that it does make so many less desirable units considerable is the biggest take away from this. I think if GW can continue to do this in future releases (Increase viability across the board without spiking top-end power), the game will slowly reach some sort of balance (Once we remove a handful offenders like invisibility, wave serpents, etc.)
oh my oh my!
i'm really excited about the tyrannocyte!!!
it can open a playstyle I LOVE!
can't wait to DS the OOE near a LR!^^
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ifurita wrote: Psychic Resonator: Any friendly Synapse creature within 6" of this model adds 6" to its synapse range. Does this mean that a Synapse creature benefits from this boost once, regardless of how many Psychic Resonators are within 6" or does this mean that Synapse range is boosted by 6" for EACH Psychic Resonator within 6"?
Usually in the RAW bonuses never stack unless specified!
Well, the way the citation is written (maybe it's not this way in the rules) is "within 6" of THIS model ..."
So, I could point to cyte A and say it's within 6" of that model so I get a bonus and then then look at cyte B and say, I am also with 6" of that one, so I get a bonus for cybe B as well.
Sinful Hero wrote: As an MC all the weapons should have a 360 degree arc of fire.
Zopes would probably be better for podding in Psychic Scream. The single shot Warp Blast requires too many rolls. Roll to manifest, roll to hit, roll to penetrate, and then any applicable saves. I don't think taking away the range problem helps.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In most cases you're still only taking away a single hullpoint and maybe stunning it for a turn.
Yup I agree. Except in an army with Zopes you don't want to be running pods, and vice versa, the only time these two have any synergy is when you roll the scream, as far as army compositions they work very badly together
Well, the pod's not a DT, so you can always make the decision on the fly before you deploy. Against AM/IG I could definitely see some value in dropping a Zoan behind a large blob that is hiding behind an Aegis, and hitting it from behind with the large blast. You could negate all their cover saves and potentially kill the priest hiding in the back. Plus, y'know, five venom cannons.
So many options all of a sudden....
My point wasn't that it couldn't do well the scream,MIT was the fact that there is no sensible way to build a list in which you take drop pods and you take Zopes. They aim to achieve two different things and it's not with sacrificing coherency and synergy for that one game where you not only roll the scream, but against an optimal list to use it well and have I outperform your other units who could go in one
Wow I am beyond excited for this next release. I'm with Jifel that I am HOPING to see the return of the DOOOOM but certainly not expecting it. Even without it, my two Dimachaerons just got so much happier. And those drop pods, while not objective secured, certainly can score on their own. Being MC, they are probably not about to be assaulted (unless you want to take heavy losses). I'll have to do the math to see what I can fit in a list, but my first thought is actually that Genestealers are pretty happy to see this. Not because they needed the alternative deployment method - they don't - but because who is going to shoot at them when they have a Dimachaeron or two bearing down on them?? I can see something like 2 10 man squads being overlooked almost entirely on turn 1, coming out of their infiltrated hiding place on turn 2 or 3 (depending on he distance they need to cover) and making the most of that monstrosity right next to them.
Overall, we just gained so much more flexibility. Definitely buying two of those pods (three if the DOOOOOM actually gets re-released) and loving my preferred Tyranid playstyle of MTO gaming some more traction. Christmas has indeed come early
Heh, whether they end up being used on the table or not, I say the new pods look awesome, so will add to my list of Tyranid things to buy and paint up.
I'm sure I'll find a use for them on the table though, they are pretty good rules wise. I'm looking forward to seeing how this changes our common lists, interesting to see people are suddenly talking about pyrovores now
One thing I would like to see is a plastic kit that builds three biovores/pyrovores. I have none of either model, and the biovores are really hard to find currently
I've been dwelling on the viability of the toxicrine in the Tyrrannocyte. It is great if I'm playing eldar (Wraith Knights) or Tau (Riptides). Against every other army it feels like it is a mistake. There just isn't going to be enough toughness values on the board. Both tau and eldar should have little difficulty putting down an MC even if I hide him behind the drop pod. Maybe he survives if i get him into ruins, still iffy.
It seems like these releases coming in a row would make some useful synergy, but I am just really puzzled why I would ever buy a toxicrine kit. What am I not seeing?
----------
Math Hammer on the Maleceptor:
Using 5 dice, The Maleceptor requires 5 shots to statistically take a hull point off of a vehicle, and that is 25 warp dice, and during the course of that shooting it has 65% chance of taking a wound.
If you roll 4 dice instead of 5, it takes 6 shots to take a hull point off a vehicle, and only 24 warp dice, and during the course of that shooting it has a 53% chance of taking a wound.
Using 5 dice, It requires 2.5 shots to statistically kill a Necron Warrior (LD 10). 12.5 warp dice, and has a 33% chance of taking a wound.
If you roll 4 dice instead of 5, it takes 3 shots to statistically kill a Necron Warrior, and only 12 warp dice, and during the course of that shooting it has a 26% chance of taking a wound.
I'll run the numbers for other leadership values if anyone is interested, but suffice to say it is clearly the worst unit available to any army on a point by point basis.
Yeah I thought about running a Toxicrene but I don't see the advantage. It has better survivability than the cheaper Carnifex (though worse range and typically the Fex will do damage to what we need it to, whereas the Toxicrene has much more limited target selection. I want to feel like it's useful, but I think I'd put a Screamer Killer Carnifex in a pod before I would use the Toxicrene. Shame, too, becuase it is a beautiful model. Maybe if we just don't buy it GW will buff it in the next dex to sell more models
Overall, the tactical options that we now have are pretty sweet. I mean, when was the last time that massed Dakkafexes were a thing? Now taking 3 squads for less than 700 points including the pods is a nice beta strike (as are the podded devil-gants of yester-codex)
Ironically I could just leave everything in reserve sans the Malanthrope and Bastion if I felt like it (take THAT Deathwing Assault ) but Flyrants running around wreaking havoc is nice too. It is a self-ally list, but from what I understand, most tournaments do allow this
luke1705 wrote: Yeah I thought about running a Toxicrene but I don't see the advantage. It has better survivability than the cheaper Carnifex (though worse range and typically the Fex will do damage to what we need it to, whereas the Toxicrene has much more limited target selection. I want to feel like it's useful, but I think I'd put a Screamer Killer Carnifex in a pod before I would use the Toxicrene. Shame, too, becuase it is a beautiful model. Maybe if we just don't buy it GW will buff it in the next dex to sell more models
Overall, the tactical options that we now have are pretty sweet. I mean, when was the last time that massed Dakkafexes were a thing? Now taking 3 squads for less than 700 points including the pods is a nice beta strike (as are the podded devil-gants of yester-codex)
Ironically I could just leave everything in reserve sans the Malanthrope and Bastion if I felt like it (take THAT Deathwing Assault ) but Flyrants running around wreaking havoc is nice too. It is a self-ally list, but from what I understand, most tournaments do allow this
Sorry to keep stirring the pot, but Is the spudded Dimachaeron the best TAC choice? It enters play with no board impact other than forcing your opponent to deal with it. On the other hand a spudded Devilfex immediately impacts the board(12 S6 shots), and also forces your opponent to deal with it. It just seems to me to be more about making an assault TMC work than using the best TAC choices.
Ifurita wrote: Psychic Resonator: Any friendly Synapse creature within 6" of this model adds 6" to its synapse range. Does this mean that a Synapse creature benefits from this boost once, regardless of how many Psychic Resonators are within 6" or does this mean that Synapse range is boosted by 6" for EACH Psychic Resonator within 6"?
Usually in the RAW bonuses never stack unless specified!
That's because the rules text usually says something like "when within range of one or more of these models". In this case it doesn't, so by RAW there's nothing to stop you stacking synapse range up forever.
Sinful Hero wrote: Sorry to keep stirring the pot, but Is the spudded Dimachaeron the best TAC choice? It enters play with no board impact other than forcing your opponent to deal with it. On the other hand a spudded Devilfex immediately impacts the board(12 S6 shots), and also forces your opponent to deal with it. It just seems to me to be more about making an assault TMC work than using the best TAC choices.
Forcing your opponent to deal with it is not an insubstantial consequence for your opponent. What many people (Tyranid players included) don't always remember is just how good our Flyrants are. Every bullet taken away from them is a huge win, especially because although they fly and are relatively tough, it doesn't take that many wounds to put them down. A 3+ is only a 3+, and sometimes you only get 4+ jink. Tyrants don't have as many wounds as we wish, but they can single-handedly deal with the vast majority of units in the game.
Furthermore, the Dimachaerons are especially scary because they are pretty durable. They may very well be able to toe into cover when they come in, giving a 4++, more or less, because most things that ignore cover aren't also AP 3. Even then, getting through 6 T6 wounds in a single turn (12 if there are 2 of them) is no small task for most armies. And if they can't kill them, let me tell you - the do WORK. No other unit in the Tyranid army (and I would suggest most in the game) hit as hard as the Dimachaeron when it gets there. Previously, the argument had always been, "well yeah it wrecks face when it gets there but it'll never get there!" Now that argument is gone and we're left with a very good unit that won't mishap when it scatters, leaving a lot of room for scatter error (and more risky scatter placement). That's not to say that a Dakkafex in a pod isn't a good idea as well - for 50 points less, one could say that you're getting a bargain. You lose most of the potency in assault in exchange for a durable gun platform. The two units do completely different things and could even be used in tandem with each other to good effect. I think they're both good options - I just like building my list around the Dimachaeron and covering up for his weaknesses more. But that's a playstyle preference, not a tactical one
Sinful Hero wrote: Sorry to keep stirring the pot, but Is the spudded Dimachaeron the best TAC choice? It enters play with no board impact other than forcing your opponent to deal with it. On the other hand a spudded Devilfex immediately impacts the board(12 S6 shots), and also forces your opponent to deal with it. It just seems to me to be more about making an assault TMC work than using the best TAC choices.
Forcing your opponent to deal with it is not an insubstantial consequence for your opponent. What many people (Tyranid players included) don't always remember is just how good our Flyrants are. Every bullet taken away from them is a huge win, especially because although they fly and are relatively tough, it doesn't take that many wounds to put them down. A 3+ is only a 3+, and sometimes you only get 4+ jink. Tyrants don't have as many wounds as we wish, but they can single-handedly deal with the vast majority of units in the game.
Furthermore, the Dimachaerons are especially scary because they are pretty durable. They may very well be able to toe into cover when they come in, giving a 4++, more or less, because most things that ignore cover aren't also AP 3. Even then, getting through 6 T6 wounds in a single turn (12 if there are 2 of them) is no small task for most armies. And if they can't kill them, let me tell you - the do WORK. No other unit in the Tyranid army (and I would suggest most in the game) hit as hard as the Dimachaeron when it gets there. Previously, the argument had always been, "well yeah it wrecks face when it gets there but it'll never get there!" Now that argument is gone and we're left with a very good unit that won't mishap when it scatters, leaving a lot of room for scatter error (and more risky scatter placement). That's not to say that a Dakkafex in a pod isn't a good idea as well - for 50 points less, one could say that you're getting a bargain. You lose most of the potency in assault in exchange for a durable gun platform. The two units do completely different things and could even be used in tandem with each other to good effect. I think they're both good options - I just like building my list around the Dimachaeron and covering up for his weaknesses more. But that's a playstyle preference, not a tactical one
I think you are both right. Dima is definitely a great model and really good now.
ductvader wrote: Unpopular opinion : I love taking 60 termagants, 2 tervigons, and 2x3 StrangleWarriors. THat's my stock troop choices.
I personally find that objectives are never hard to grab, synapse is abundant, I'm hard to kill, and combat is hard to lose.
To me, that's really more of a playstyle choice than a tactical one. It's basically our version of drop pod marines. Is it good? I think so. Is it fun to play? Not for me. Ironically Verthane also stopped using his drop pod marine army because he wasn't enjoying the playstyle either. And I mean, if you're not having fun, what are you really doing?
Agreed. The drop pod list I was running with 17 objective secured was extremely successful -- I had a very high win rate. However, it didn't feel like I was playing 40K. It felt more like I was interacting with the objectives and just trying to stay alive than like I was interacting with the enemy. If I was going to go to a major tournament right now, it's what I would bring if I wanted to win (based on what's in my collection) -- but it wouldn't be what I would bring if I wanted to have fun.
Small aside, it does sadden my heart to have a first-hand account of how good Tyranids are at killing Tyranids. Had a 750 point 2 v 2 game and randomly rolled for teams, so the Tyranids wound up being on opposite teams. The Dimachaeron got charged by a squad of 6 warriors and a prime (the prime had the bonesword/lash whip combo, giving him one chance to finish the bad boy off for good. Two hits....and NO sixes). Dimachaeron swings back angrily (getting a good roll for being outnumbered) and puts out SEVEN INSTANT DEATH WOUNDS. There were 7 models with a total of 21 wounds.....so I won combat by 21. Didn't get to sweep them (or use that I1 fnp) because, you know, they were already dead.
And so the Zoats retreat back into the quiet of intergalactic space to lick their wounds and await the next rules edition or Nid codex...
It occurs to me you could put Mucolids in a Tyrannocyte- deep strike as closely as possible to an enemy unit, place Venom Cannon shots on the closest model to clip your mucolid, and try to double it out to instagib it for a S8 Ap3 large blast(plus the Venom Cannon shots). 115pts for five S6 Ap4 blasts and a S8 Ap3 large blast.
Not sure if it's competitive, but if you run Mucolids as troops and a Tyrannocyte you have the option.
Ifurita wrote: Psychic Resonator: Any friendly Synapse creature within 6" of this model adds 6" to its synapse range. Does this mean that a Synapse creature benefits from this boost once, regardless of how many Psychic Resonators are within 6" or does this mean that Synapse range is boosted by 6" for EACH Psychic Resonator within 6"?
I dunno, I think that is looking for too much. Shoot if you want a big Synapse Bubble, take a Synapse Node tyrant (or Swarmy) add the boost, then cast Dominion...+6",+6",+6"...30" bubble? sounds like it'll do.
Ifurita wrote: Psychic Resonator: Any friendly Synapse creature within 6" of this model adds 6" to its synapse range. Does this mean that a Synapse creature benefits from this boost once, regardless of how many Psychic Resonators are within 6" or does this mean that Synapse range is boosted by 6" for EACH Psychic Resonator within 6"?
I dunno, I think that is looking for too much. Shoot if you want a big Synapse Bubble, take a Synapse Node tyrant (or Swarmy) add the boost, then cast Dominion...+6",+6",+6"...30" bubble? sounds like it'll do.
Don't forget the Norn Crown and warlord trait. If they stack drop say three around your node- I think a 54" Synapse range?
Small aside, it does sadden my heart to have a first-hand account of how good Tyranids are at killing Tyranids. Had a 750 point 2 v 2 game and randomly rolled for teams, so the Tyranids wound up being on opposite teams. The Dimachaeron got charged by a squad of 6 warriors and a prime (the prime had the bonesword/lash whip combo, giving him one chance to finish the bad boy off for good. Two hits....and NO sixes). Dimachaeron swings back angrily (getting a good roll for being outnumbered) and puts out SEVEN INSTANT DEATH WOUNDS. There were 7 models with a total of 21 wounds.....so I won combat by 21. Didn't get to sweep them (or use that I1 fnp) because, you know, they were already dead.
And so the Zoats retreat back into the quiet of intergalactic space to lick their wounds and await the next rules edition or Nid codex...
I don't really think the Zoats want anything to do with us around about now, I can't imagine them faring too well living side by side with Dimaechaerons
I am amused that the new Tyrannicide,Mucilod, sporocyst looks like one big kit. you can build a pod or sporo and Muciliod.
Though at almost a $1 a point at most likely cost, it is probably the highest dollar to point cost model, so I would want to reliable use out of it before spending money.
To be honest, I don't know if more spores or a slightly larger synapse range is that big of a deal. Remember that all of our psykers get Dominion for free. How often do you cast if? If the answer is "all the time! And even then I wish I had more synapse!", well....maybe you should include more synapse in your list. Otherwise, you can probably make do without it anyhow just by....you know....casting Dominion
As for the spore mines, it's well-documented that Biovores often miss when they're not in LAN. What's less-documented is that if you want to create more spore blockades (with somewhat reasonable placement), you don't really need this new thing either. Just take Biovores with LAN. Whenever you miss, great. If you hit, re-roll it (you are twin-linked, after all) so that you have another chance to miss. Or, you could adapt your tactics and just hit stuff if you want
It is interesting to note that for a 30-point tax, we can field an "un-bound battle-forged army" more or less. You have no objective-secured units, but you can take it to the BAO, NOVA, or whatever tournament you want. They don't give up kill points, so it might even be worth taking 90 points to field 6 Mucolid spore units. That's a lot of strength 8 blasts
Last thing of note - us getting so close to un-bound that we can taste it begs the question - how far are we from unbound, really? I think some tournaments are going to allow it before long
barnowl wrote: I am amused that the new Tyrannicide,Mucilod, sporocyst looks like one big kit. you can build a pod or sporo and Muciliod.
Though at almost a $1 a point at most likely cost, it is probably the highest dollar to point cost model, so I would want to reliable use out of it before spending money.
The power of magnets is truly a wonderous thing-doubling the utility of dual kits!
Verthane was referring to the battle I described with the Dimachaeron vs the warrior squad. He was the other Tyranid player. The Zoats were being proxied as Tyranid warriors. Poor, poor Zoats
BlaxicanX wrote: jy2, do you know off-hand where the rules are for needing a model on the board at the end of each round?
Sure.
p. 133 - Sudden Death Victory
"If at the end of any game turn, one player has no models on the battlefield his opponent automatically wins."
Awesome, thank you.
By "game turn"do they basically mean rounds? i.e. If I kill all my opponents models at the top of turn 5, he still has all of his turn at the bottom of turn 5 to get models on the board?
Small aside, it does sadden my heart to have a first-hand account of how good Tyranids are at killing Tyranids. Had a 750 point 2 v 2 game and randomly rolled for teams, so the Tyranids wound up being on opposite teams. The Dimachaeron got charged by a squad of 6 warriors and a prime (the prime had the bonesword/lash whip combo, giving him one chance to finish the bad boy off for good. Two hits....and NO sixes). Dimachaeron swings back angrily (getting a good roll for being outnumbered) and puts out SEVEN INSTANT DEATH WOUNDS. There were 7 models with a total of 21 wounds.....so I won combat by 21. Didn't get to sweep them (or use that I1 fnp) because, you know, they were already dead.
And so the Zoats retreat back into the quiet of intergalactic space to lick their wounds and await the next rules edition or Nid codex...
I don't really think the Zoats want anything to do with us around about now, I can't imagine them faring too well living side by side with Dimaechaerons
No, they certainly don't fit in with the newer Nid fluff anymore. Still love me those miniatures though.
I meant creature not walker...that is what I get for not paying attention to what I was typing in a meeting. Come on work I am trying to read forums here. Anyway the one 
(like say a couple of Tyrants) (I posted a list called Endless Tunnel Assault a long while ago)
How are you planning to run the Gargoyles? big Broods of x30?
