Also a comment on this thread overall. I find it really useful to have people debating and discussing units pros and cons from different perspectives. I don't get to play a lot at all at the moment, so can't get my experience levels up, so reading different points of view and counter points is great for me as it keeps me constantly re-evaluating how to play with this awesome army.
The good thing about the big contributors to this thread, is that for the most part people sure know how to give supporting logic to their opinions. There is very little petty bickering and the strategy debate is always good, really well delivered and really good to add to or debate against when you feel you have further opinions on it. And what's a good point of view without someone to contest it? If you are right you will be able to explain the grievances someone may have with your opinion thus strengthening your opinion and answering some of the questions people reading may be wondering, and if you can't do this, well maybe your opinion was not so strong after all. I've had my opinion changed on a few models from the people in this thread alone, sometimes you need that second perspective to properly highlight the strengths or flaws of a unit/strategy for you.
It's cool because this is a really good way to sharpen strategical knowledge, it's definitely about multiple perspectives and being able to recognise which one makes the most sense.
barnowl wrote: I am thinking about using MoA to do the same stunt with something a bit more painful like a dakkfex, but the risk of failing I.B. seems to great, and the unit cost is potentially to high, perhaps a Trevigon if you win first turn. I know this not an ideal approach, but is looking like a solid idea for those of us with out or not wanting to run certain units. A 70pt sacrifce brood that can earn it's points back if the opponent does not deal with seems like a good substitute for Venom in a box if you don't have one. Besides it is nice to have a use for the Icon little buggers.
I use MOA quite often. Here are a few observations I have.
Advantages of MOA -Infiltrating a flyrant gives you a chance to get back armor quite often. -Dakkafexes / Tyrannofexes can contribute early. -You can use it to dictate or confuse your opponent target priority -Most things will have a chance for a turn 2 charge. -Works well if you plan to control the middle of the board.
What should you infiltrate: -If your opponent is shooty and doesn't have an assaulty deathstar you want to infiltrate you warlord, a support unit (Malanthrope is the best by a mile), and as many walking MCs as you can (Dakkafexes are #1 Option, but TFex, Dimacharon, Tervigon, or even Exocrine are also viable options). -If your opponent has something that can threaten you MCs in assault. IE. Wraith Knight, Thunder puppies, Demon Prince, Necron Catacomb Command Barge, etc. Then you should infiltrate a Flyrant, a support unit, an MC, and a screening unit of some sort (Gargoyles work, but Gants are slower, and thus gain more advantage). -I know that you don't use venoms or Malans, therefore your support unit would likely be a Zoey or Tervigon. In that case consider outflanking or deploying your flyrant.
Where should you infiltrate: -Rarely an opponent may leave open a section of their deployment zone. Perhaps along the back board edge. In this case you want a screening unit. If you are deploying first, and didn't include a screen, then you should deploy somewhere else that you can get a cover save from ruins. -Ruins that are Near midfield. This is especially great if you can use it as a LOS blocker to get closer. - If you only have one shrouded giver, you might choose to line him up at the very edge of your deployment zone and infiltrate within 6" to get the shrouding.
When should you not infiltrate: -If your opponent is going to come to you. The worst part of infiltrating is that you can't assault anything in assault range on turn 1. -If you don't have enough support. For instance if you have 1 Malan, and 1 zoey as your only backfield synapse, you should not infiltrate, or perhaps infiltrate just screening units. -Drop Pod Marines
Things to remember: -If you and your opponent deploy at the edge of your deployment you are 24" apart. Infiltrating usually only closes that gap to 18" -You are giving your opponent the opportunity to advance more aggressively, because several of your MC's aren't an assault threat. -It is almost always better to give up infiltrating inches to keep your infiltrators in cover.
If my opponent deploys at his central board edge or close to it, I can infiltrate within my Synapse from Warriors on my board edge and still be within shooting after movement. These situations I generally infiltrate 2x2 Squads of Dakkafex and an Exocrine. If backfield deployment, I instead take a Flyrant, a Dakkafex squad and either my Exocrine if the AP2 will be big or just a second Dakkafex squad. So yeah to say the least I use it highly aggressively without giving a single slot to anything that doesn't have an excellent amount if firepower, and although this is anecdotal, I have never ONCE lost a game doing this.
I would use MOA often if I ever could roll for it....I swear a one-in-three chance means nothing to my dice. In fairness, it meant nothing in 6th edition when I was making grounding checks, and it still means nothing when I play Wraithwing with my Crons, so that's an ok trade-off
Tag, that's an awesome tactica....maybe we should start calling them tagticas but seriously it's great to see that other Nid players use similar tactics, as I've really only got one or two in my local group. I really think stuff like this is what should be frequently expounded upon in this thread (though different uses and synergies for various units is huge as well, which is what I feel takes up the bulk of this thread). But for the newer players, as well as people who play more for fun, it's great to have resources available to bring their game to the next level by knowing and understanding different approaches, whether it's how to use MOA (which I feel is SO IMPORTANT for Nids in particular) or how to learn the way of the water warrior (great name by the way jy2!)
Also, Shuppet, I have to say that although we don't always see eye-to-eye on various things (partly because the Nid builds that we run tend to be very different) I don't think I've read something that you've written in 190+ pages that I agree with more than your last post:
The good thing about the big contributors to this thread, is that for the most part people sure know how to give supporting logic to their opinions. There is very little petty bickering and the strategy debate is always good, really well delivered and really good to add to or debate against when you feel you have further opinions on it. And what's a good point of view without someone to contest it? If you are right you will be able to explain the grievances someone may have with your opinion thus strengthening your opinion and answering some of the questions people reading may be wondering, and if you can't do this, well maybe your opinion was not so strong after all. I've had my opinion changed on a few models from the people in this thread alone, sometimes you need that second perspective to properly highlight the strengths or flaws of a unit/strategy for you.
It's cool because this is a really good way to sharpen strategical knowledge, it's definitely about multiple perspectives and being able to recognise which one makes the most sense.
Not only do I appreciate someone playing devil's advocate (which I know isn't what you're doing but it serves a similar purpose nonetheless), but there is absolutely something to be said for the necessity of being able to defend one's own opinion - if you can't, it's probably time to re-evaluate that opinion. Furthermore, against-the-grain thinking is exactly how we're going to find anything else out about the codex that we don't already know. There are countless examples of builds not being figured out until months to a year after the codex came out, and although we may have somewhat limited options in the way of competitive builds, tweaking and improving them is always worthwhile, as well as finding ways to use our typically underutilized units.
It's cool to remember that if you infiltrate an Exocrine, he doesn't have to move to shoot turning his usual BS3 into BS4, and if he's in range of the Warriors he gets twin-linked on his blast. Stand a very good chance of dropping a perfectly aimed large plasma blast and absolutely wrecking a pile of even heavy infantry. If this is less relevant, just using it for BS4 Ap2 Dakka is a great way of dealing with any MC or something with an armour save that your TL-Devs won't trade as efficiently against. Failing this, just infiltrate a Flyrant anyway and go for some rear armour.
My alpha of 72 Dakkashots, an Exocrine Blast or Dakka, 3 Twin-linked Biovores and a twin-linked Venom Cannon from the Warriors has always set the pace of the match for me.
It's also worth pointing out that there are some who believe that once you get to a certain number of infiltrating Carnifexes (Carnifexen? Carnifexi?) you have essentially won the game. While I don't believe that this is true, it certainly becomes a LOT easier when those rowdy boys are bearing down on the opponent looking at a likely turn 2 assault. Same goes for Dima.
barnowl wrote: I am thinking about using MoA to do the same stunt with something a bit more painful like a dakkfex, but the risk of failing I.B. seems to great, and the unit cost is potentially to high, perhaps a Trevigon if you win first turn. I know this not an ideal approach, but is looking like a solid idea for those of us with out or not wanting to run certain units. A 70pt sacrifce brood that can earn it's points back if the opponent does not deal with seems like a good substitute for Venom in a box if you don't have one. Besides it is nice to have a use for the Icon little buggers.
I use MOA quite often. Here are a few observations I have.
Spoiler:
Advantages of MOA
-Infiltrating a flyrant gives you a chance to get back armor quite often.
-Dakkafexes / Tyrannofexes can contribute early.
-You can use it to dictate or confuse your opponent target priority
-Most things will have a chance for a turn 2 charge.
-Works well if you plan to control the middle of the board.
What should you infiltrate:
-If your opponent is shooty and doesn't have an assaulty deathstar you want to infiltrate you warlord, a support unit (Malanthrope is the best by a mile), and as many walking MCs as you can (Dakkafexes are #1 Option, but TFex, Dimacharon, Tervigon, or even Exocrine are also viable options).
-If your opponent has something that can threaten you MCs in assault. IE. Wraith Knight, Thunder puppies, Demon Prince, Necron Catacomb Command Barge, etc. Then you should infiltrate a Flyrant, a support unit, an MC, and a screening unit of some sort (Gargoyles work, but Gants are slower, and thus gain more advantage).
-I know that you don't use venoms or Malans, therefore your support unit would likely be a Zoey or Tervigon. In that case consider outflanking or deploying your flyrant.
Where should you infiltrate:
-Rarely an opponent may leave open a section of their deployment zone. Perhaps along the back board edge. In this case you want a screening unit. If you are deploying first, and didn't include a screen, then you should deploy somewhere else that you can get a cover save from ruins.
-Ruins that are Near midfield. This is especially great if you can use it as a LOS blocker to get closer.
- If you only have one shrouded giver, you might choose to line him up at the very edge of your deployment zone and infiltrate within 6" to get the shrouding.
When should you not infiltrate:
-If your opponent is going to come to you. The worst part of infiltrating is that you can't assault anything in assault range on turn 1.
-If you don't have enough support. For instance if you have 1 Malan, and 1 zoey as your only backfield synapse, you should not infiltrate, or perhaps infiltrate just screening units.
-Drop Pod Marines
Things to remember:
-If you and your opponent deploy at the edge of your deployment you are 24" apart. Infiltrating usually only closes that gap to 18"
-You are giving your opponent the opportunity to advance more aggressively, because several of your MC's aren't an assault threat.
-It is almost always better to give up infiltrating inches to keep your infiltrators in cover.
Absolutely agree on most of what you go there. It may just be the shear amount of White Scar marines in my meta, but I have found there is frequently space in opponent's backfield for an objective grabber that forces the opponent to split his forces. Getting my infiltrators cover is what lead me to doing the backfield deploys. Also good call on what my MoA inflitrators Zoe, Fex and *something*.
As Shuppet points out, an infiltrated Exocrine is just very very mean.
The Stealers well, I like using them and the opponent can't really ignore them so they find a way in to my lists. Eventually I will add a Venom (FW is not really played much in my area) to this army, but I am trying to keep this list fully painted while I catch up my other armies (Second nid,Marines and Tau)
Also, Shuppet, I have to say that although we don't always see eye-to-eye on various things (partly because the Nid builds that we run tend to be very different)
I don't think there is anyone in this thread who fully sees eye to eye with me haha, that being said I do agree with some of what all of you say and disagree with other parts. I'll often not be as vocal about something I agree with since it's already been said making further posts from me somewhat unnecessary , however when I see something that I disagree with it often needs a conflicting opinion added! I do hope that I never seem deliberately combative or that I'm "arguing against a person and not a statement", as I always state what Ive found and believe to be the most efficient way to cram a list full of the most value, and I don't post an opinion on something less it's fully thought through to the maximum, I'm not one for snap decisions. I also strive to support everything I say with strong logic, and to recognise when the opposing logic outweighs my own, and to redirect a debate back to the strategy when I feel that it's being (sometimes unintentionally) delivered through statements not always that relevant to the strategical nature of the debate.
luke1705 wrote: Not only do I appreciate someone playing devil's advocate (which I know isn't what you're doing but it serves a similar purpose nonetheless), but there is absolutely something to be said for the necessity of being able to defend one's own opinion - if you can't, it's probably time to re-evaluate that opinion. Furthermore, against-the-grain thinking is exactly how we're going to find anything else out about the codex that we don't already know. There are countless examples of builds not being figured out until months to a year after the codex came out, and although we may have somewhat limited options in the way of competitive builds, tweaking and improving them is always worthwhile, as well as finding ways to use our typically underutilized units.
This is so true and will continue to be. What we have to remember is that there is a TINY sample of players for this game to be judged by, and there is no proper competitive medium for players to really be recognised for their grasp of the game concepts above others, unlike games of MTG, or even Starcraft and Dota. Wherein hundreds of thousands of dota games are played daily, giving trends a very relevant significance, and there is one of the highest competitive platforms available to gaming right now, we have an unsupported community-based competitive circuit that GW contributes to in no manner (least of which even balancing for such a state of play), consisting of a bunch of tournaments each with different house rules, played by people in a game with a STUPIDLY high fee just to build a base army let alone tweak it, and no medium to actually make money off it unlike MTG or esports. Comparatively the player base is tiny, a tiny amount of games are played, and a tiny amount of events are even available let alone even possible for a potential prodigy to attend. There is no such thing as a professional 40k player, there is no legendary players sitting at the top of the ladder for his achievements, as such there is nobody whose grasp and skill at the game has propelled him to heights above the rest of the competitive player base, there's nobody to look to for definitive strategies to emulate or learn from. Where Starcraft has people like flash and MC, dota has it's Dendis, the closest we have is bloggers that are interesting enough to hold people's attentions. FLG at least has an overall decent standard of skilled players behind it even if critical flaws in their reasoning are quite obvious and prominent, however look to someone like natfka, whose strategy statements are capable of setting current beliefs and be regurgitated constantly as the "way to do it", as 40k players love to do, yet to any higher level players reading his stuff it's quite obvious that he's a mid tier player at BEST whose grasp of game concepts has a lot of room for improvement (excuse the elitism , that was just he only way to deliver the statement I was trying to make about his blog). However, it doesn't stop the masses and a bunch of other players who don't actually know anything further than what they've read there, from regurgitating it as fact over and over on boards such as this. As such, anybody who blindly follows the mass opinion, or regurgitates stuff they've read and haven't practiced or theorised HARD about themselves, or uses the statement in debate "everyone does it this way" or "everyone knows that" or "that's what Geoff from FLG says to do" (sorry, couldn't resist taking a little jab at InControl but this is one that I have literally seen said, in this thread as well. Same could apply to jy2 and it's an extremely unhealthy mindstate strategically ), is severely limiting their own capability for growth as well as that of anybody absorbing the circular statements they put forth.
Although it's true that the sample size is comparatively small, it's important to realize the distinction between a list and a strategy. Many people think that if they run InControl's list, they'll win games. What they really need to do to win games is adopt strategies and tactics like InControl (or whatever tournament player floats your boat) and they'll win games. The key is tactical flexibility. It's not just about running the Trapdoor Spider, or the Way of the Water Warrior. It's about realizing when to run one or neither and adopt a third or fourth different strategy based on a number of fairly complex factors. What tournament players do well is make these snap judgements and decide what will give them the best chance to navigate the minefield that is the dice we must roll and emerge victorious. And they do all of this incredibly quickly while trying to out-think and out-maneuver the opponent.
Because of this tactical flexibility, I greatly appreciate seeing the battle reports and hearing the anecdotes from the tournament veterans. Much of the time, the advice that they give is rooted in the experiences they have.
And to add to that I think personal playstyle is a varied thing. We all choose different positioning placements, and take different gambles, might different sacrifices across the board of play, and generally employ different calls of judgement with different plans in mind for a turn or two later on what you are counting to pay off etc. There's a lot more to playing the game than just "in or out of cover" and "target priority", and I think copying another players list and advice is a fine start point, but you should be tweaking for your own ends from that point onwards to infinity.
luke1705 wrote: Although it's true that the sample size is comparatively small, it's important to realize the distinction between a list and a strategy. Many people think that if they run InControl's list, they'll win games. What they really need to do to win games is adopt strategies and tactics like InControl (or whatever tournament player floats your boat) and they'll win games. The key is tactical flexibility. It's not just about running the Trapdoor Spider, or the Way of the Water Warrior. It's about realizing when to run one or neither and adopt a third or fourth different strategy based on a number of fairly complex factors. What tournament players do well is make these snap judgements and decide what will give them the best chance to navigate the minefield that is the dice we must roll and emerge victorious. And they do all of this incredibly quickly while trying to out-think and out-maneuver the opponent.
Because of this tactical flexibility, I greatly appreciate seeing the battle reports and hearing the anecdotes from the tournament veterans. Much of the time, the advice that they give is rooted in the experiences they have.
If you like battle reports, here's a little something for you to pass your time with.
Update to this: apparently the tournament does allow Forge World, but no superheavies or gargantuans from FW, so the Hierodule is out :(
the good news is, this gives me 565 points to spend, the bad news is, there really is no decent replacement for the Hierodule long distance firepower :(
So, next try:
--CAD Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
1 Malanthrope 3 Hive Guard
Hive Crone 15 Gargoyles
Mawloc Mawloc
-- Living artillery
3 Tyranid Warriors: barbed strangler
3 Biovores Exocrine
Comes to 1735 points currently, also plays a bit different I guess. I'm not sure about the Gargoyles in this list though, might it be worth it to replace them with some Shrikes to hunt Wraithknights and such?
All opinions welcome!
Would this list be better? Shrikes give me some Riptide and Wraithknights killing...
-- CAD Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
Let me ask you, have you ever tried running a malanthrope? Did you try it and then switched back to the venomthrope? If so, I am curious as to why.
I don't own the model but I had a few games using my Doom model to represent one (seems like the best use for Doom conversions in 7th) so while it may have had sizing differences I do n think it was too far off. And every game, at no stage did I ever feel it was worth dedicating extra points towards, it was just a Venomthrope who is much harder to block LoS to. There isn't many shooting units that will kill a Venom but not a Malanthrope, the margin isn't big enough. I don't want to dedicate more points to my first blood bait model. It's personal choice as I said, but you are fooling yourself if you think taking a Malanthrope in a bastion is an inherently better choice than taking a single Venom. While you might have a slightly tougher cover-provider, I have a stronger army elsewhere. You need to recognise that it's a balanced trade off and Malanthropes are far from the auto-include that you list them as, because while it's stats and rules are better than a Venom, ithe most important stat of all, it's point cost, is twice as worse as the Venom. There IS a very real sacrifice to be made by taking a Malan, just because it's a small one doesn't mean it can't hurt your efficiency.
I'm going to have to disagree here. Durability is a huge factor. The points difference between the two isn't. That is because the malanthrope is a force-multiplier and his effectiveness is amplified almost geometrically relative to his durability.
Take for example, you are going up against a normal army (not including Tau and mechdar, which are both exceptions to the norms with their ability to ignore cover). Let's say Necrons with triple-annihilation barges, a common enough tournament army. For this example, I'm am going to take LOS blockers like the bastion and BLOS terrain out of the equation and assume enemy guns are able to fire upon your M-thrope/V-thropes. All 3 AB's fire at it. Being BS4 twin-linked and with tesla, it will average about 5 hits per (x 3 barges). That's 15 hits and 13 wounds. Now assuming your thrope is in cover for 2+. The 13 wounds = 2 failed saves. That means your venomthrope is dead and your malanthrope survives with 2W until next turn.
So the venom is gone T1 and your malan survives to keep on buffing next turn. If he saves a wound for one of your flyrants, that is 240/4W = 60-pts that you've just saved. A dakkafex wound saved due to the malan is 38-pts saved. He also just saved 43-pts for your exocrine, and so on. What if he helps to save multiple wounds on your flyrant or other MC's as well? So the 40-pts extra you spend on the malan over the venom can potentially save you 3x points, 4x and even more in wounds suffered by the rest of your army. You really can't measure the impact of the malanthrope (and his increased survivability) to the rest of the army by just the cost difference between him and his smaller cousin. Doing so would be like comparing the walkrant over the flyrant. Well, the walkrant saves you 30-pts and that can be used to boost up the rest of the army. Well, the wings for the flyrant just gives you so much more utility and increased survivability that it is well worth. Same goes with the malanthrope. Every extra wound you save because of the increased survivability of the malanthrope goes back into the army, making it tougher and better. Investing in just 1 normal unit helps only that unit. Investing in a force-multiplier benefits the entire army. To me, that is a no-brainer where my points are going into.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I saw a reference to jy2's coined strategy term "Positional Dominance" from an earlier page. The individual went on to describe that the main goal of this strategy is to control the corners and attack from the sides...I thought it was more: Take the middle and force your opponent to react to you.
Should the Malanthrope's larger base size not also factor? His base should add an inch or two to his shrouding bubble diameter to cover your gribblies and critters.
Sinful Hero wrote: Should the Malanthrope's larger base size not also factor? His base should add an inch or two to his shrouding bubble diameter to cover your gribblies and critters.
This is true, and when looked at in the sense of a malanthrope vs venom/zoan, there are multiple things to consider. Malanthrope is tougher than both. Yes it is a single model and therefore easier to focus (and high up so easy to see) but it is T5 so immune to S8 ID and is harder to wound by small arms fire, has a 3+ save normally, which is on par with the zoan though not an invul, but also makes it immune to SMS which is one of the v-thropes GREATEST weaknesses. It also comes stock with it will not die, on a 4+ which is fantastic, and as was mentioned in the quote above, has a larger sphere of influence than the v-thrope.
And for sh%^# and giggles, if you manage to get him into a combat where you kill and enemy unit (or win combat, can't remember) then he ow has a preferred enemy bubble as well. Drop pod marines anyone?
All in all, 90 points is an immense bargain for what you get. Oh, forgot to mention he only takes up one elite slot which gives you greater list flexibility.
I dont use emplacements with nids, cause that is too much outside the fluff for me. After playing one game with my tau against nids with venoms, and seeing how one SMS is the death of them, I was like NOPE!
Let me ask you, have you ever tried running a malanthrope? Did you try it and then switched back to the venomthrope? If so, I am curious as to why.
I don't own the model but I had a few games using my Doom model to represent one (seems like the best use for Doom conversions in 7th) so while it may have had sizing differences I do n think it was too far off. And every game, at no stage did I ever feel it was worth dedicating extra points towards, it was just a Venomthrope who is much harder to block LoS to. There isn't many shooting units that will kill a Venom but not a Malanthrope, the margin isn't big enough. I don't want to dedicate more points to my first blood bait model. It's personal choice as I said, but you are fooling yourself if you think taking a Malanthrope in a bastion is an inherently better choice than taking a single Venom. While you might have a slightly tougher cover-provider, I have a stronger army elsewhere. You need to recognise that it's a balanced trade off and Malanthropes are far from the auto-include that you list them as, because while it's stats and rules are better than a Venom, ithe most important stat of all, it's point cost, is twice as worse as the Venom. There IS a very real sacrifice to be made by taking a Malan, just because it's a small one doesn't mean it can't hurt your efficiency.
I'm going to have to disagree here. Durability is a huge factor. The points difference between the two isn't. That is because the malanthrope is a force-multiplier and his effectiveness is amplified almost geometrically relative to his durability.
Take for example, you are going up against a normal army (not including Tau and mechdar, which are both exceptions to the norms with their ability to ignore cover). Let's say Necrons with triple-annihilation barges, a common enough tournament army. For this example, I'm am going to take LOS blockers like the bastion and BLOS terrain out of the equation and assume enemy guns are able to fire upon your M-thrope/V-thropes. All 3 AB's fire at it. Being BS4 twin-linked and with tesla, it will average about 5 hits per (x 3 barges). That's 15 hits and 13 wounds. Now assuming your thrope is in cover for 2+. The 13 wounds = 2 unfailed saves. That means your venomthrope is dead and your malanthrope survives with 2W until next turn.
So the venom is gone T1 and your malan survives to keep on buffing next turn. If he saves a wound for one of your flyrants, that is 240/4W = 60-pts that you've just saved. A dakkafex wound saved due to the malan is 38-pts saved. He also just saved 43-pts for your exocrine, and so on. What if he helps to save multiple wounds on your flyrant or other MC's as well? So the 40-pts extra you spend on the malan over the venom can potentially save you 3x points, 4x and even more in wounds suffered by the rest of your army. You really can't measure the impact of the malanthrope (and his increased survivability) to the rest of the army by just the cost difference between him and his smaller cousin. Doing so would be like comparing the walkrant over the flyrant. Well, the walkrant saves you 30-pts and that can be used to boost up the rest of the army. Well, the wings for the flyrant just gives you so much more utility and increased survivability that it is well worth. Same goes with the malanthrope. Every extra wound you save because of the increased survivability of the malanthrope goes back into the army, making it tougher and better. Investing in just 1 normal unit helps only that unit. Investing in a force-multiplier benefits the entire army. To me, that is a no-brainer where my points are going into.
Couldn't agree more. I find it odd that someone wouldn't consider a Malanthrope more viable than the venomthrope. Perhaps it's because all of the hype it has received in the last few months, and so people are expecting too much from it but on paper and on the board - its clearly the better choice!
Venom is 22.5 pts per wound - 5+ AS T4
Malan is 21.25 pts per wound - 3+ AS T5
The difference there alone is pretty substantial, but just to make a point it has all of these additions too;
synapse, shadows, boost in initiative,strength, Regen, grasping tail...
No brainer at all.
The only reason I would take a Venom now is if I couldn't run Forgeworld or was playing Kill Team.
Take for example, you are going up against a normal army (not including Tau and mechdar, which are both exceptions to the norms with their ability to ignore cover). Let's say Necrons with triple-annihilation barges, a common enough tournament army. For this example, I'm am going to take LOS blockers like the bastion and BLOS terrain out of the equation and assume enemy guns are able to fire upon your M-thrope/V-thropes. All 3 AB's fire at it. Being BS4 twin-linked and with tesla, it will average about 5 hits per (x 3 barges). That's 15 hits and 13 wounds. Now assuming your thrope is in cover for 2+. The 13 wounds = 2 failed saves. That means your venomthrope is dead and your malanthrope survives with 2W until next turn.
So the venom is gone T1 and your malan survives to keep on buffing next turn.
Holy CRAP that is a wildly specific, doctored situation. For starters, why on earth would I ever position myself in such a manner against Assault Barges? My venom would most definitely be out of sight to them, unless they've chewed through 2 squads of Dakkafex WITH the cover save up, in which case Venom has made its points back, or unless they try some crazy forward push positioning (and even then it's unlikely), in which case the Venom has made its points back better than a Mal would anyway as this puts them in hurt range of Dakkafex / other nastys by making a positioning decision they wouldn't have to against a Mal. You can't just say "lets assume he isn't out of LoS" that's like me saying "lets just assume the Malanthrope is ahead of your entire army and only gets a 5+ save for this example". It doesn't make sense at all, position wise. But ASSUMING that for some reason I did position it terribly and do that, and the Barges shoot at both it and the Venom, my next question is, why does the Malan have a 2+ save? Do you position yours in the ruin every game? Because if not, and if we go with the far more likely scenario that he has 3+ save, those barges DO kill the Malanthrope (4 failed saves) with the same amount of points invested, giving the advantage right back to the Venom anyway.
This logic is hugely doctored for your scenario. On top of that, we had to rule out any situations concerning Eldar and Tau, when I specifically explained that they are my 2 hardest opponents (not Crons) and it would surprise me if anyone else was finding any other match up harder than these two, and during these two match ups the benefits of Venom over a Malan for that cheaper price outweighs it over and over. The other match ups, a Venom is guaranteed to make its points back regardless I've found.
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Wilson wrote: on paper and on the board - its clearly the better choice!
Venom is 22.5 pts per wound - 5+ AS T4 Malan is 21.25 pts per wound - 3+ AS T5
The difference there alone is pretty substantial, but just to make a point it has all of these additions too; synapse, shadows, boost in initiative,strength, Regen, grasping tail...
No brainer at all.
The only reason I would take a Venom now is if I couldn't run Forgeworld or was playing Kill Team.
Or if the investment into either was killed just as easily as the other, and it's cost per wound never comes into play and one just ends up netting you free points. Or if you wanted to block LoS to it, I don't think anything except some ridiculous stacked positioning of multiple Crones and Carnifexes is capable of blocking LoS to a Mal, which is sacrificed if you get first turn anyway.
The fact that a lot of people are having trouble grasping is that the points difference is always relevant, and the durability is not. 1 Malanthrope is no more durable than 2 Venoms, how many of you deemed your cover save to be worth 2 Venoms before Malanthrope was released? I don't remember any of you really doing so. Yes, the Mal gets Synapse I know but thats not the point I've seen argued at all yet, just that he keeps cover up longer thus > take him. The rest of his special rules will be irrelevant 19 games out of 20. Probably less. If your Malan survives long enough to make it into CC, he's either been wasted points because your opponent doesn't care about the cover save, or you've already won the game anyway as if this is not the case they have failed to kill him off within 2-3 turns of shooting,
How bout I suggest a situation where those extra points for a Zope net me a roll of Onslaught, pushing 2 Dakkafex into shooting range of something on the board edge a turn early, netting me an extra 24 Devourer shots (the firepower of 2 Flyrants we are talking here)? This alone outweighs a Malanthropes advantages added. How about we allow Tau back in, as realistically there is no reason that I won't be playing some of my hardest match ups against Tau, and in my opponents turn he markerlights my Venom (which I once again, have stupidly chosen to leave in LoS of him?) killing it or a Malanthrope pretty much just as easily as the other, both being a mostly irrelevant unit this game regardless.
At the end of the day, the LoS blocking is getting really overlooked and does leagues for his durability making him possibly even on par or better with the Mal, synergising with his role better, and still costing less than the Mal.
But assuming the durability IS less on the Venom, I think maybe it's time to consider that the trade off of durability for extra aggression for an aggressive playstyle is definitely very viable. Not necessarily better every game if you insist, but definitely viable. Yes I would consider as good or better than a Malanthrope often enough, but I'm not asking anyone to share that opinion, just to admit that the difference isn't as far flung as some are insisting.
SBG wrote: And let's not forget that most of us already have Venomthropes, and not all of us can afford Malanthropes +IA rulebook.
:(
No worries if you would rather use your own models and not spend any more money on new ones (and/or new books). We are all limited by our resources (i.e. financial situations).
The only thing that I am saying is that, gamewise, the malanthrope is better than the venomthrope even though it costs almost double that of the venomthrope. Now whether you use him or not in your army is entirely dependent on your circumstances and the circumstances of your meta.
Take for example, you are going up against a normal army (not including Tau and mechdar, which are both exceptions to the norms with their ability to ignore cover). Let's say Necrons with triple-annihilation barges, a common enough tournament army. For this example, I'm am going to take LOS blockers like the bastion and BLOS terrain out of the equation and assume enemy guns are able to fire upon your M-thrope/V-thropes. All 3 AB's fire at it. Being BS4 twin-linked and with tesla, it will average about 5 hits per (x 3 barges). That's 15 hits and 13 wounds. Now assuming your thrope is in cover for 2+. The 13 wounds = 2 failed saves. That means your venomthrope is dead and your malanthrope survives with 2W until next turn.
So the venom is gone T1 and your malan survives to keep on buffing next turn.
Holy CRAP that is a wildly specific, doctored situation. For starters, why on earth would I ever position myself in such a manner against Assault Barges? My venom would most definitely be out of sight to them, unless they've chewed through 2 squads of Dakkafex WITH the cover save up, in which case Venom has made its points back, or unless they try some crazy forward push positioning (and even then it's unlikely), in which case the Venom has made its points back better than a Mal would anyway as this puts them in hurt range of Dakkafex / other nastys by making a positioning decision they wouldn't have to against a Mal. You can't just say "lets assume he isn't out of LoS" that's like me saying "lets just assume the Malanthrope is ahead of your entire army and only gets a 5+ save for this example". It doesn't make sense at all, position wise. But ASSUMING that for some reason I did position it terribly and do that, and the Barges shoot at both it and the Venom, my next question is, why does the Malan have a 2+ save? Do you position yours in the ruin every game? Because if not, and if we go with the far more likely scenario that he has 3+ save, those barges DO kill the Malanthrope (4 failed saves) with the same amount of points invested, giving the advantage right back to the Venom anyway.
This logic is hugely doctored for your scenario. On top of that, we had to rule out any situations concerning Eldar and Tau, when I specifically explained that they are my 2 hardest opponents (not Crons) and it would surprise me if anyone else was finding any other match up harder than these two, and during these two match ups the benefits of Venom over a Malan for that cheaper price outweighs it over and over. The other match ups, a Venom is guaranteed to make its points back regardless I've found.
It's a highly reasonable assumption. Not all tables will include large LOS-blocking terrain (BLOS terrain). Then you've got the instance where your opponent wins the roll for deployment and then puts your army on the side with the least favorable terrain setup. Yes, you will want to hide your venomthrope whenever you can, but in many instances, you just can't. Either that or you hide him further back behind BLOS terrain (because most likely you're not just going to have the BLOS terrain up front exactly where you need it to be for your entire army) and now you have to deploy your entire army back instead of as far forwards as possible just to put them in the venom's shrouding bubble.
And then you've got Dawn of War deployment, where unless you deploy your venom all the way back on backend of your deployment zone, annihilation barges which can move up to 12" for an effective 30-36" range of shooting will still most likely have range to wherever you put your venom. BTW, AB's snapfiring will also do about 4.5 hits on average so their output actually isn't affected all that much by snapfiring. As for all the other deployment methods, if you deploy your venoms back to try to get out of range of the barges, then you will be deploying the rest of your army back as well, thus taking it further out of position.
As for "dakkafexes" or whatever else MC is guarding the venoms, Necrons have Mindshackle Scarabs to deal with them in bargelords and/or destroyer lords + wraiths. Of course the AB's are not going to advance unsupported. They will be accompanied by bargelords/Necron wraithstars as well. With only LD8, the chances of the carnifexes hitting themselves from MSS is very high.
The malan will have a 2+ save because you can assume any decent player would put him in ruins (as well as to have the TMC's touching that same ruins). But you are right. If you want to go to the extreme to say that the table has no ruins as well, then yeah, both will die in just 1 volley by triple-AB's.
As for Tau and Eldar, they are 2 armies out of 10 where both the malan and venom will have problems against. That's 20% of the armies that you may face. However, the assumptions will still work against 80% of the armies out there. But even still, against Tau and Eldar, the malanthrope will survive much better. He can survive against Tau SMS, whereas the vthrope - as another poster (or 2) mentioned earlier - will just fold like a wet paper bag. Thanks to his 3+, T5 and 4W, the malanthrope will also survive better against the likes of markerlights + riptide fire and wave serpents. He may not survive the entire turn, but it'll most likely take 3 wave serpents to finish him off compared to just 1 wave serpent to finish off the venom. That means 2 less wave serpents to fire at the rest of the army if you've got the malanthrope in your army when going up against Eldar serpent-spam.
Of course all these can be avoided if you just do what I do and take a bastion in your army.
Sinful, that's correct. So a bastion gives you a HUGE synapse bubble for a Malanthrope. The shrouding effect is also measured the same way. This is another reason why the bastion is advocated so much by Jy2. I don't run it as often because it's actually overkill against most of my usual opponents, but it's very good
I think the Mal or Ven+Zoe is a lot more army dependent than some want to admit. In a vacuum for 90% of the cases the Mal is probably the better buy, especially in flyer heavy lists. I find in foot heavy lists, the Zoe role on the powers chart is going to be more important.
The Malanthrope is 1/2" bigger in radius than a Venomthrope, so you gain an inch of shrouding over the Vope with the larger base. Not too big of a deal, but that means it also has an inch of synapse over the Zoanthrope/Zope? as well. Probably irrelevant for the most part.
That's a 1/2" on each side(radius), if there's any confusion.
If I can find my compass I'll edit a picture of the different bands later tonight.
I'm not pleased with my crafting skills, but I said I'd do it.(not to mention the poor picture quality)
Spoiler:
Green band/circle is the Venomthrope's shrouding bubble
Orange band/circle is the Malanthrope's shrouding bubble
Blue band/green circle is the Warrior/Zoanthrope's Synapse bubble
Orange and blue band/orange circle is the Hive Tyrant/Malanthrope's Synapse bubble
Pink band/oval is the Trygon Prime/Tervigon's Synapse bubble
Note-I'm sure a computer program could do the same thing, but better. Not to mention show the entire band. But I like dragging out my art crap.
Ok so I'm going to Mathhammer this Malanthope vs Venomthrope durability thing. I'll compare the durability of the two units in terms of how many shots to the face it takes for each unit to die. For the purposes of these calculations, I'll assume a Ballistic skill of 4 for the shooter, as this is average because of Tau (can get 5 much of the time) and then there are 3 and 2 units occasionally (hey Orks). If you want to see how many Lasguns it takes, for example. all you need to do is use the appropriate conversion factor. I'll do an example for the first comparison, how many bolter shots it takes, so you can see and do it for yourself if you care:
Chance to hit at BS 4: 2/3 (.66666) (for both)
Chance to wound at Strength 4: (.5 against Venomthrope) ( 1/3 or .3333) against Malanthrope
Chance to fail a save: 1/6 (.166666) (for both)
All you need to do is take the number of saves failed to die (2 for a Venomthrope) (4 for a Malanthrope) and divide that number by the product of the three decimals. So for a Venomthrope that would be 2 divided by .055 or (.666*.5*.166), which gives a result of 36. Meaning that it would take 36 bolter shots to get through the Venomthrope in cover. For the Malanthrope, you would use 4 as the numerand, and divide that by .037 or (.666*.333*.166). That would give the result of 108 bolter shots to drop a Malanthrope in that same 2+ cover.
So I don't know how to do tables, so bear with me here. I'll do percentages to make this a little more clear. When in 2+ cover, it will take:
54 Strength 3 shots to kill a Venomthrope vs 216 Strength 3 shots to kill a Malanthrope, so the Malanthrope is 400% more durable.
36 Strength 4 shots to kill a Venomthrope vs 108 Strength 4 shots to kill a Malanthrope, so the Malanthrope is 300% more durable.
27 Strength 5 shots to kill a Venomthrope vs 72 Strength 5 shots to kill a Malanthrope, so the Malanthrope is 266% more durable.
20 Strength 6 shots to kill a Venomthrope vs 54 Strength 6 shots to kill a Malanthrope, so the Malanthrope is 270% more durable.
20 Strength 7 shots to kill a Venomthrope vs 42 Strength 7 shots to kill a Malanthrope, so the Malanthrope is 200% more durable (rounding error)
6 Strength 8 shots to kill a Venomthrope vs 42 Strength 8 shots to kill a Malanthrope, so the Malanthrope is 700% more durable.
6 Strength 9 shots to kill a Venomthrope vs 42 Strength 9 shots to kill a Malanthrope, so the Malanthrope is 700% more durable
6 Strength 10 shots to kill a Venomthrope vs 6 Strength 10 shots to kill a Malanthrope, so they are exactly the same in terms of durability
Let's talk for a second about ignores cover, which frequently happens, and ignore AP (which hugely benefits the Venomthrope, as it will only take 6 sternguard shots, or 3 sternguard at rapid fire range using their ignores cover ammo, to drop a Venomthrope) Ignores cover that it also AP 3 is rather rare, so that's a pretty big deal.
Venomthrope:
Strength 3: 14 AP - shots
Strength 4: 9 AP - shots
Strength 5: 7 AP - shots
Strength 6: 5 AP - shots
Strength 7: 5 AP - shots
Strength 8: 1.7 AP - shots
Malanthrope:
Strength 3: 108 AP - shots (770% more durable)
Strength 4: 54 AP - shots (600% more durable)
Strength 5: 36 AP - shots (514% more durable)
Strength 6: 27 AP - shots (540% more durable)
Strength 7: 21 AP - shots (420% more durable)
Strength 8: 21 AP - shots (1,230 % more durable)
The numbers only get more ridiculous when you take AP into account if it's 4 or 5 and ignores cover (which happens a LOT). The only reason that I included the number of raw shots is because if an army doesn't have that many shots to bring to bear, then it makes all the difference in the world. Contrary to Shuppet's assertion that the durability makes no difference, it makes all the difference in the world. Even if an army has 108 bolter shots (or more likely, 54 rapid-firing bolters) necessary to bring down the Malanthrope, you've still taken up 72 more shots away from the rest of your army compared to the Venomthrope. That's why I will always bring one - because the durability is almost never wasted. The only case where it could be is when a squadron (or unit) has SO MUCH FIREPOWER that it could kill either of them without missing a beat, and it can't split-fire so it would have to shoot at that one unit anyhow. Maybe Farsight Bomb that somehow decided to not give itself split-fire? I can't really think of any real-world example where this would be the case.
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barnowl wrote: I think the Mal or Ven+Zoe is a lot more army dependent than some want to admit. In a vacuum for 90% of the cases the Mal is probably the better buy, especially in flyer heavy lists. I find in foot heavy lists, the Zoe role on the powers chart is going to be more important.
Barnowl, for one thing, you have an awesome username. For another, I do agree that it's not all night-and-day because you do save points and a Zoan is good - however to me, I find it more important to have zero easy first blood targets versus 2 (or just 1 if you like the durability of the Venomthrope) Can't really rely on having enough BLOS terrain for both of them. However, the more Carnifex you bring, the more important the Zoan becomes, I agree. You want them to get across the table pronto, and the Onslaught often means the difference between being able to shoot first turn versus not being able to.
I don't think SHUPPET would argue that the Venomthrope is more durable than the Malanthrope, anyone can see that T5 W4 with 3+ is going to be better at taking hits than T4 W2 5+.
Looking through the comments, I think SHUPPET argues that a Venomthrope does have advantages over a Malanthrope, including being cheaper and being smaller and therefore, making it easier to block LOS. Durability isn't going to be a factor to consider when you can't even shoot at the model.
What would I take personally? Depends on the list I had taken. For more mobile lists such as Skyblight, I think the Malanthrope is better, as it doesn't need Synapse support. More static and grounded lists mind find more use out of a Venomthrope, where you can provide Synapse in the backfield, as well as provide more instances to completely block LOS (such as behind a MC), keeping your 45 buffer unit alive.
I've not tested a Malanthrope although I want to so I can't comment on it. I did have success running two Venomthropes for durability (alongside two single man Zoey units), although I'm inclined to make a switch from two Venoms to one Venom and a DS Ripper unit to see how that does.
It's nice to see healthy discussion taking place, I've just had to talk to someone who hates the new DE codex and yet provides no reasonable evidence for saying they got nerfed across the board (that's a discussion for another thread though).
@jy2 Raveners? Nice. Please share your results when you have your game, I've got about six that I want to make work
my experience is you're often not hiding a venomthrope past turn 1 anyway, if it's even possible to do that (outside of bastions, which is another discussion). just too much mobility and LoS blocking terrain isn't always what/where we wish it was.
barnowl wrote: I think the Mal or Ven+Zoe is a lot more army dependent than some want to admit. In a vacuum for 90% of the cases the Mal is probably the better buy, especially in flyer heavy lists. I find in foot heavy lists, the Zoe role on the powers chart is going to be more important.
Barnowl, for one thing, you have an awesome username. For another, I do agree that it's not all night-and-day because you do save points and a Zoan is good - however to me, I find it more important to have zero easy first blood targets versus 2 (or just 1 if you like the durability of the Venomthrope) Can't really rely on having enough BLOS terrain for both of them. However, the more Carnifex you bring, the more important the Zoan becomes, I agree. You want them to get across the table pronto, and the Onslaught often means the difference between being able to shoot first turn versus not being able to.
For my play style, Catalyst and Onslaught can make or break the game. I think the First Blood issue also effects value. I run such large gribbly broods that they are hard to get first blood of off, and enough of midsized and MC's that in Dawn of war with even remotely decent terrain I have trouble getting all the models on the board at deployment.I don't think I can even get half the army covered under the Shroud bubble, so why would the opponent waste shots on the hard to kill ones when he has easy to kill ones in the open. Heck I expect to give up first blood, If the opponent can't pull a first blood on my list the odds of my winning the game increase about 10 fold.
This is were a Catalyst Zoe + venom starts to out weigh the single Malanthrope, or even 2 solo Zoes can provide more than either between dominion and the 3 shots at Catalyst/onslaught. This is why I end up sticking a squad in the opponents backfield to get them moving in two directions, to disrupt fire priority. Some lists have the range volume (tau) or infantry mobility (eldar) to make this stratagem less effective, but both those are just bad match ups anyway.
Frozocrone & Barnowl have pretty much nailed it (although I do think in a situation where I was running 2 venoms in the one squad I'd probably just upgrade to a Mal - it's likely more durable, saving you 5 points and possibly the points on a synapse peg).
One thing that needs to be acknowledged, is the fact that I am not arguing that the venom is more durable than the Mal, if LoS is drawn to them both. Far from it, The Venom is less than half as durable as the Malan to gunfire as well as ID'able if they choose to spend some valuable AT fire on it (a 45 point model shrugging off 2/3 shots), and those stats like do nothing to disprove anything that I'm saying. I'm merely saying that if this happens, it's made it's points back anyway all most definitely and was never a wasted purchase. Vs cover ignoring weaponry, they both die easily and those stats would be nowhere near correct, it would take I believe one Wave Serpent shooting at it to kill either of them within (a very safe) 36" firing range. Basically though, what I'm saying is you don't NEED that extra durability. A venom has the potential on its own to either make the difference or not. The extra shots that a Mope may or may NOT end up eating, are not always worth dumping the points into. They will not always trade as well as actual army units will.
Also, it's not DEPENDANT on LoS blocking terrain (although it's helpful) an Exocrine is easily big enough to block LoS. They may be able to manoeuvre to the side and get vision , but as said this screws WIH positioning and the LoS block is extendable by the 4 Carnifexes I run, and wise positioning around terrain, doesn't even have to be full LoS blocking a patch of trees can help. Look at the rules for LoS, tentacles don't count, vents don't count, tail doesn't count, the Venomthrope is actually a tiny model when it comes to drawing vision, the Malanthropes torso is much taller making this not really an option for him.
I think for a list with 4 Dakkafex and an Exocrine, Zopes far outweigh a bit of extra points sunk in to the durability of a cover support model that's already going to do its role regardless if it gets killed or not
Vs cover ignoring weaponry, they both die easily and those stats would be nowhere near correct, it would take I believe one Wave Serpent shooting at it to kill either of them within (a very safe) 36" firing range. Basically though, what I'm saying is you don't NEED that extra durability. A venom has the potential on its own to either make the difference or not.
Sorry to nitpick here, but a single Wave Serpent would have to get fairly lucky to chew through T5, 4 wounds, 2+ cover, and a 3+ armor save.
What, maximum fourteen twinlinked S6-7 shots on the 2+ cover save, plus max seven S7 ignore cover shots on the 3+? Assuming they all wound, the Mope takes four wounds on average I believe? Assuming all its shots hit and wound of course.
I notice I'm assuming a Mope gets the maximum possible cover save, so that could be adjusted.
Also, I completely agree that Zopes/Vopes and Mopes depends on the list. There is quite a bit of variation amongst competitive lists, if just for what's legal in different areas.
I've had a few drinks and can't process the maths right now - just posting to inform you that I exalted your post for calling them Mopes, Vopes & Zopes
I understand that onslaught and catalyst are amazing powers and that on a backfield zope running with dakka it is amazing. However, it is a great plan until you roll paraoxym and psychic scream...
Which seems to happen a lot.
On the $ cost of the Mope...not sure I like Mope but agree with shuppet that I hate venom for the venomthrope. If you troll Ebay you can find amazing deals. I got mine for $56 with shipping already pinned and primed.
Also for the few comments I have seen on the bastion not being fluffy. Just make your own and Tyranid it up. There are all kinds of brood nests etc that bugs use. You could create a spore for a bio titan and call it a bastion. Fluff wise the possibilities are endless. You could use the imperial one and model corrosion through painting and bits and use the imperial bastion as an overrun outpost. Be fun to have some rippers already gnawing on it.
NightWrench wrote: agree with shuppet that I hate venom for the venomthrope
Sorry but you if you are using Vope n Zope then you kinda have to use Mope lol
NightWrench wrote: Also for the few comments I have seen on the bastion not being fluffy. Just make your own and Tyranid it up. There are all kinds of brood nests etc that bugs use. You could create a spore for a bio titan and call it a bastion. Fluff wise the possibilities are endless. You could use the imperial one and model corrosion through painting and bits and use the imperial bastion as an overrun outpost. Be fun to have some rippers already gnawing on it.
I have a bastion converted from a Necron monolith sunk in my snow (my basing for all my guys) and covered in tyranid biomatter. It makes sense fluffwise to me, at least to my Nids.
NightWrench wrote: I understand that onslaught and catalyst are amazing powers and that on a backfield zope running with dakka it is amazing. However, it is a great plan until you roll paraoxym and psychic scream...
Which seems to happen a lot.
On the $ cost of the Mope...not sure I like Mope but agree with shuppet that I hate venom for the venomthrope. If you troll Ebay you can find amazing deals. I got mine for $56 with shipping already pinned and primed.
Also for the few comments I have seen on the bastion not being fluffy. Just make your own and Tyranid it up. There are all kinds of brood nests etc that bugs use. You could create a spore for a bio titan and call it a bastion. Fluff wise the possibilities are endless. You could use the imperial one and model corrosion through painting and bits and use the imperial bastion as an overrun outpost. Be fun to have some rippers already gnawing on it.
I find both those powers and Horror to be quite useful. Paraoxym for that big nasty skyfire unit hunting my flyrant? Yes, please! Drop Pod marines got eh drop on me? I'll have that Psychic Scream thank you. Hormigaunts need to charge that high volume fire blob? One Horror to go please. The longer this threads goes on the easier it is becoming to tell horde players vs nidzilla/FMC players by the opinions and tactics posted. Since the codex first dropped I have come to find all the 'nid powers to be more useful than I originally expected. Only Warp Lance is still a bit iffy for me do to all the dice rolls needed to pull it off.
NightWrench wrote: I understand that onslaught and catalyst are amazing powers and that on a backfield zope running with dakka it is amazing. However, it is a great plan until you roll paraoxym and psychic scream...
Which seems to happen a lot.
On the $ cost of the Mope...not sure I like Mope but agree with shuppet that I hate venom for the venomthrope. If you troll Ebay you can find amazing deals. I got mine for $56 with shipping already pinned and primed.
Also for the few comments I have seen on the bastion not being fluffy. Just make your own and Tyranid it up. There are all kinds of brood nests etc that bugs use. You could create a spore for a bio titan and call it a bastion. Fluff wise the possibilities are endless. You could use the imperial one and model corrosion through painting and bits and use the imperial bastion as an overrun outpost. Be fun to have some rippers already gnawing on it.
I find both those powers and Horror to be quite useful. Paraoxym for that big nasty skyfire unit hunting my flyrant? Yes, please! Drop Pod marines got eh drop on me? I'll have that Psychic Scream thank you. Hormigaunts need to charge that high volume fire blob? One Horror to go please. The longer this threads goes on the easier it is becoming to tell horde players vs nidzilla/FMC players by the opinions and tactics posted. Since the codex first dropped I have come to find all the 'nid powers to be more useful than I originally expected. Only Warp Lance is still a bit iffy for me do to all the dice rolls needed to pull it off.
I find that on a Zope, Psychic Scream is guaranteed to be useless, Catalyst and Onslaught are guaranteed to be useful. Paroxysm I'm never too disappointed tho roll, the Horror is very meh but has made a big difference some times. Psychic Scream can be useful, if you also roll MoA, go second,make a judgement call based on their deployment positioning, risk outflanking the Zoey, and just maybe pull off a few wounds.mif ofc your opponent is playing Tau.
NightWrench wrote: I understand that onslaught and catalyst are amazing powers and that on a backfield zope running with dakka it is amazing. However, it is a great plan until you roll paraoxym and psychic scream...
Which seems to happen a lot.
On the $ cost of the Mope...not sure I like Mope but agree with shuppet that I hate venom for the venomthrope. If you troll Ebay you can find amazing deals. I got mine for $56 with shipping already pinned and primed.
Also for the few comments I have seen on the bastion not being fluffy. Just make your own and Tyranid it up. There are all kinds of brood nests etc that bugs use. You could create a spore for a bio titan and call it a bastion. Fluff wise the possibilities are endless. You could use the imperial one and model corrosion through painting and bits and use the imperial bastion as an overrun outpost. Be fun to have some rippers already gnawing on it.
I find both those powers and Horror to be quite useful. Paraoxym for that big nasty skyfire unit hunting my flyrant? Yes, please! Drop Pod marines got eh drop on me? I'll have that Psychic Scream thank you. Hormigaunts need to charge that high volume fire blob? One Horror to go please. The longer this threads goes on the easier it is becoming to tell horde players vs nidzilla/FMC players by the opinions and tactics posted. Since the codex first dropped I have come to find all the 'nid powers to be more useful than I originally expected. Only Warp Lance is still a bit iffy for me do to all the dice rolls needed to pull it off.
I have found each of them useful as well. I am an TMC player have been for years. Ever since my Carnifex in 2nd edition made 22 straight armor/inv saves vs. Eldar and basically wrecked the entire army. That is one reason I like the Mope it just fits into my TMC style.
I do like psychic scream and paroxsm I just find a lot of my opponents seem to snap shot at the FMC no matter what and that power doesn't help as much. Though it is a lot of fun to cast on other flyers.
Sorry to throw this in, but I was wondering if anyone has done the math comparison between T-fex and Dakkafexen?
Specifically, I'm looking for 1 T-fex w/Acid spray + E. grubs and 2 Dakkafexen. If possibly, I was hoping the person who'd do this could include info like PPW (points per wound), Damage output to T4, T5, and T6, while also showing the durability against S6-8 shooting AND AP 2-4 shooting.
For some reason my mind isn't working today and I can't fathom how to set this up in excel....
Obviously, to do this we'd have to make assumptions so would it be absurd to say that Acid spray can hit 5 models and E. grubs can hit 4?
If this has (or something similar to it) has already been done, can someone refer me to it?
SHUPPET wrote: Pho plays Swarm? Better poll would be Nidzilla / Tyradactyl since they are the two big ones
Is Nidzilladactyl an option? I've been pondering 2 Flyrants, 2 Harpies, as many dakkafexes as I can fit, with Rippers for troops (or genestealers... just for out of synapse objective holders).
SHUPPET wrote: I find that on a Zope, Psychic Scream is guaranteed to be useless, Catalyst and Onslaught are guaranteed to be useful. Paroxysm I'm never too disappointed tho roll, the Horror is very meh but has made a big difference some times. Psychic Scream can be useful, if you also roll MoA, go second,make a judgement call based on their deployment positioning, risk outflanking the Zoey, and just maybe pull off a few wounds.mif ofc your opponent is playing Tau.
Nah, Psychic scream is useless on Zopes
Not useless, but definitely not an ideal choice. Mostly I have found it helpful against DS'er and armys that do a large bulk scout/Infiltrate move.
Someone else was running 2 Flyrants with multiple crones.....but I think that the tactical approaches to Skyblight are pretty similar to most Nidzilla builds unless they're LAN with a ton of Dakkafexes (for the record, I do need to get 2 more screamer killer fexes to run that apoc formation....SO BROKEN)
A thought crossed my mind though - I don't want to diverge this thread too much, or start a new/different one, but it might be worthwhile for a specific purpose. Instead of saying what general builds we run, why not be specific? Why not post our actual lists, maybe a little blurb about how we run it or something, and we can talk about each other's lists. I was thinking it could be like a Tyranid Army list mega-thread (likely in the army list section lol). I know many of us have posted a list at one time or another (and often in this very thread lol) but it might be nice to get them condensed, to see what everyone runs, and also to talk about the lists in said thread. We could probably even start a hyperlink table of contents in the first post. Wouldn't be hard to organize by build and/or points limit either.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and also, in case anyone was unsure, I am unashamedly Nidzilla. Basically I never left fourth edition. I have a saying when I play Apocalypse - if I'm spending less than 1,000 points per model, I'm doing it wrong. Sadly it works out too haha. I can bring a Hierophant, a Harridan, Ang'grath and a beautiful Ork Gargant that I sometimes use as a ridiculously large Stompa and sometimes just use some home-brewed rules to make him more in line with what he actually looks like (and therefore 1,250 points. The rules are so bad though lol). But it's 4 dudes at 4,000 points and I never apologize for it, although I do often give out a handicap (beyond the couple hundred that I'm short) because Ang'grath is just stupid. I mean, really really stupid good.
You might be interested in the battle reports that jy2 posts in the apropriate forum. plenty of useful knowledge and game experience to be had from those.
luke1705 wrote: Someone else was running 2 Flyrants with multiple crones.....but I think that the tactical approaches to Skyblight are pretty similar to most Nidzilla builds unless they're LAN with a ton of Dakkafexes (for the record, I do need to get 2 more screamer killer fexes to run that apoc formation....SO BROKEN)
A thought crossed my mind though - I don't want to diverge this thread too much, or start a new/different one, but it might be worthwhile for a specific purpose. Instead of saying what general builds we run, why not be specific? Why not post our actual lists, maybe a little blurb about how we run it or something, and we can talk about each other's lists. I was thinking it could be like a Tyranid Army list mega-thread (likely in the army list section lol). I know many of us have posted a list at one time or another (and often in this very thread lol) but it might be nice to get them condensed, to see what everyone runs, and also to talk about the lists in said thread. We could probably even start a hyperlink table of contents in the first post. Wouldn't be hard to organize by build and/or points limit either.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and also, in case anyone was unsure, I am unashamedly Nidzilla. Basically I never left fourth edition. I have a saying when I play Apocalypse - if I'm spending less than 1,000 points per model, I'm doing it wrong. Sadly it works out too haha. I can bring a Hierophant, a Harridan, Ang'grath and a beautiful Ork Gargant that I sometimes use as a ridiculously large Stompa and sometimes just use some home-brewed rules to make him more in line with what he actually looks like (and therefore 1,250 points. The rules are so bad though lol). But it's 4 dudes at 4,000 points and I never apologize for it, although I do often give out a handicap (beyond the couple hundred that I'm short) because Ang'grath is just stupid. I mean, really really stupid good.
I never get tired of this, but this is my collection from an Apoc game I had back in 5th:
roxor08 wrote: Sorry to throw this in, but I was wondering if anyone has done the math comparison between T-fex and Dakkafexen?
Spoiler:
Specifically, I'm looking for 1 T-fex w/Acid spray + E. grubs and 2 Dakkafexen. If possibly, I was hoping the person who'd do this could include info like PPW (points per wound), Damage output to T4, T5, and T6, while also showing the durability against S6-8 shooting AND AP 2-4 shooting.
For some reason my mind isn't working today and I can't fathom how to set this up in excel....
Obviously, to do this we'd have to make assumptions so would it be absurd to say that Acid spray can hit 5 models and E. grubs can hit 4?
If this has (or something similar to it) has already been done, can someone refer me to it?
Thanks!
Here is the math you requested, but I submit that it isn't all that meaningful because usually tyranid MC's are taking cover saves against low AP weapons, and your number for the models hit by the templates are exceptionally high in my opinion. If I can pull that many hits off in an entire game with a Tfex it is an accomplishment. I think 2.25 and 0.75 would be a more representative number of hits.
# Of wounds caused against selected toughness values
Update to this: apparently the tournament does allow Forge World, but no superheavies or gargantuans from FW, so the Hierodule is out :(
the good news is, this gives me 565 points to spend, the bad news is, there really is no decent replacement for the Hierodule long distance firepower :(
So, next try:
Spoiler:
--CAD Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
1 Malanthrope 3 Hive Guard
Hive Crone 15 Gargoyles
Mawloc Mawloc
-- Living artillery
3 Tyranid Warriors: barbed strangler
3 Biovores Exocrine
Comes to 1735 points currently, also plays a bit different I guess. I'm not sure about the Gargoyles in this list though, might it be worth it to replace them with some Shrikes to hunt Wraithknights and such?
All opinions welcome!
Would this list be better? Shrikes give me some Riptide and Wraithknights killing...
Spoiler:
-- CAD Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
It wouldn't really be better. Rather, it'll just be different. Both lists have its strengths and weaknesses. It really depends on what type of armies/units you normally face more in your meta. Now with that said, I like your list #2. The shrikes help to take some of the pressure off of your flyrants better than the gargoyles or hive guards (assuming you play aggressively with them and push them up the table). It also gives your army a little more teeth against other assault armies. Personally, I'd prefer rending claws over both toxin sacs and BS+LW so that they are a threat to vehicles as well, but then again, maybe I don't play against as much wraithknights as you do.
I remember that batrep. Sweet stuff. Also, those Exocrines are awesome. As is what I believe is a Doom of Malantai conversion all the way on the left in the middle? RIP. I do wish that GW (or forge world) would get off their butts and release a dominatrix or something. Or just give me a Tomb Stalker from that Medusa V campaign.
Eldarain wrote: @ jy2 that looks insane. Also I miss seeing your apple "spore pod" in your reports.
Yeah, but I long for the days of the large Apoc games once again. That battle was basically my very last Apoc game. Haven't yet played the new Apoc ever since it came out.
I am just missing "spore pods" in general.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
luke1705 wrote: I remember that batrep. Sweet stuff. Also, those Exocrines are awesome. As is what I believe is a Doom of Malantai conversion all the way on the left in the middle? RIP. I do wish that GW (or forge world) would get off their butts and release a dominatrix or something. Or just give me a Tomb Stalker from that Medusa V campaign.
The doom is on the lower right corner of the first picture, right next to the bell pepper "spore pod".
luke1705 wrote: Someone else was running 2 Flyrants with multiple crones.....but I think that the tactical approaches to Skyblight are pretty similar to most Nidzilla builds unless they're LAN with a ton of Dakkafexes (for the record, I do need to get 2 more screamer killer fexes to run that apoc formation....SO BROKEN)
A thought crossed my mind though - I don't want to diverge this thread too much, or start a new/different one, but it might be worthwhile for a specific purpose. Instead of saying what general builds we run, why not be specific? Why not post our actual lists,.
I generally run 1 of 3 TAC lists, but I only have a few opponents that can deal with them so most of my games are much less powerful lists.
roxor08 wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I saw a reference to jy2's coined strategy term "Positional Dominance" from an earlier page. The individual went on to describe that the main goal of this strategy is to control the corners and attack from the sides...I thought it was more: Take the middle and force your opponent to react to you.
Could you explain this strategy another time jy2?
Sure thing, buddy!
Basically, Positional Dominance is my philosophy that if you can control the Movement phase, then you've got the advantage in objectives-based scenarios. Basically, if you can get onto the objectives first, then you have the advantage because you've already got the objectives and it is up to your opponent to take it back from you. This usually requires 2 key characteristics:
1. Mobility. You need to have a mobile army.
2. Aggressive play. Normally, you need to play more aggressively and push your army forwards and onto the objectives (and beyond). Dare your opponent to move towards "your" objectives and thus, towards your army.
One of the main strategies of Positional Dominance is board control. If you can control the board - and thusly control the movement of your opponent - then you can set yourself up favorably position-wise with regards to the objectives. So as your army advances, your opponent has to retreat (or at the very least, you stop them from advancing). Thus, even if you take heavy, heavy fire, come Turn 5, you are already on the objectives and now your opponent has to make his way towards the objectives. So he could be decimating your army with his shooting, but if he can't reach the objectives in time, then you've got him.
However, Tyranids are not the only army that can control the board. Other armies can do it, and some can do it even better than our bugs. Armies like multiple Imperial Knights, deathstar armies (beaststar, seer council, centurionstar, Draigowing, etc.), more assault-oriented armies (daemons, orks, Mindshackle Necrons), super-fast armies (Necron flyer-spam, Daemon FMC-spam, mechdar/jetbike Eldar, biker armies, etc.) and drop pod armies can potentially control the board better than our bugs. Against these types of armies, you have to resort to other means of controlling the Movement phase. Against these types of armies, you have to use whatever tool is available to you, including a mostly reserves army, outflanking, trying to lead your opponents away from the objectives and just trying to kill off their fast objective-grabbers.
For example, I took Skyblight to a tournament and in my very 1st game, had to play against a drop pod Marine army with drop pods. Now I knew that my opponent could just drop on the objectives and I'd then have a hard trying to get rid of 70+ marines (with Marneus Calgar) + drop pods. So my strategy going into the game was to disdirect him. I deployed my bastion, venomthrope, gargoyles and 1 flyrant in one of the corners and then put my objectives far away from it. So Turn 1, my opponent took the bait and dropped 30 marines there (of which 20 were the very dangerous sternguards). Yes, he did kill my flyrant, but on my next turn (when my reserves came in), I just ignored his 30 marines who were stuck out in the middle of nowhere. Thus, instead of having to deal with his entire army, I gave up a flyrant so that I only had to deal with about half of his army. So for the rest of the game, his 30 marines were running towards where the action was but they were never involved in the battle. I was the only one who managed to pull out a draw against my opponent, who won all of his other games and finished 2nd Overall at the BAO.
So normally, Positional Dominance entails board control. However, armies have changed throughout the editions and sometimes, you just can't control the board against these types of armies. In that case, you're going to have to get a little more creative with how you can control the board and in many cases, you're going to have to rely a lot more on finesse rather than on just brute force run-up-the-middle type of board control.
SHUPPET wrote: I find that on a Zope, Psychic Scream is guaranteed to be useless, Catalyst and Onslaught are guaranteed to be useful. Paroxysm I'm never too disappointed tho roll, the Horror is very meh but has made a big difference some times. Psychic Scream can be useful, if you also roll MoA, go second,make a judgement call based on their deployment positioning, risk outflanking the Zoey, and just maybe pull off a few wounds.mif ofc your opponent is playing Tau.
Nah, Psychic scream is useless on Zopes
Not useless, but definitely not an ideal choice. Mostly I have found it helpful against DS'er and armys that do a large bulk scout/Infiltrate move.
This is true. Although we as an army are pretty much built to wreck close range DS with everything - but at least it's a useable power when this happens I guess!
SHUPPET wrote: Pho plays Swarm? Better poll would be Nidzilla / Tyradactyl since they are the two big ones
Is Nidzilladactyl an option? I've been pondering 2 Flyrants, 2 Harpies, as many dakkafexes as I can fit, with Rippers for troops (or genestealers... just for out of synapse objective holders).
Yeah to be honest the currently popular 4 FMC + LAN or Dakkafexes or Mawlocs build is probably a hybrid of the two, especially compared to last editions popular version of Tyradactyl which was Skyblight + more FMCs, that was a really focused airborne list, current is more using Dual CAD to take advantage of as many Flyrants as possible seeing as they are so badass and still trying to include a little bit more balance with the rest of the points pushed into specific models for a role, rather than just spamming more flyers. There definitely should be a couple off hybrid options if a poll does go up.
I see you like your void shield generators lol...I'm more of a bastion man myself but I definitely see the merit. I really like your list #2, but I'm curious to know why you run the second Malanthrope. You don't find it redundant?
Automatically Appended Next Post: For reference, my 3 favorite lists at the moment:
As with tag, I find that some of these lists aren't too nice for my local meta, so I don't run them as often as I might like. Skyblight in particular gets a lot of groans. No one seems to know what as is. I remember when my friend started playing Necrons and he said, "I don't want to get more than 1 Night Scythe. It would feel mean". But I do take some pride in playing more hardcore lists every now and again so that people can elevate their game a bit. Thankfully, I'm not the only one who wants to be tested every once in a while
It's very similar to luke's list, only I throw in the Comms Relay over the extra Biovore.
Spoiler:
Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs
Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs
Malanthrope
3x Rippers - Deepstrike
3x Rippers - Deepstrike
2x Biovores
Mawloc
Bastion - Comms Relay, 1x Void Shield
Skyblight:
Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs
10x Gargoyles
10x Gargoyles
10x Gargoyles
Harpy - TL-HVC Harpy - TL-HVC Hive Crone
1850 Dimachaerons
I've been struck by the shiny-new-model syndrome. They may not be the most effective units, but dimachaerons are just too cool not to include in my semi-competitive list.
Spoiler:
Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs
Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs
Malanthrope
3x Rippers - Deepstrike
3x Rippers - Deepstrike
Dimachaeron
Dimachaeron
25x Gargoyles
Mawloc
Mawloc
Bastion
Tyranid Allies:
Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs
3x Rippers - Deepstrike
1850 Dual-CAD's
I don't normally run dual-CAD's in my meta because it is not allowed in tournament play, but if I did, it would go something like this:
Jim did you convert a second Dimachaeron like your first one? I do enjoy the visual spectacle of seeing a half-Mawloc-half toy story beast meander up the table. I can only imagine it gets better with two of them
I don't think jy2 cares too much about consistency looking at his army lol. Lot of different colours shapes and sizes in there, its like a kaleidoscope
Anyway, as far as lists go, I'll share with you guys my 3 most used ways of playing and having fun in 40k.
Here's my competitive list:
1850 pts:
Spoiler:
Flyrant, TL-Devs, eGrubs Flyrant, TL-Devs, eGrubs
Zoanthrope Zoanthrope Venomthrope
10x Termagants 10x Termagants
2x Dakkafex 2x Dakkafex Mawloc
Exocrine 3x Biovores 3x Warriors, Venom Cannon
Between 6 rolls for Onslaught and 1/3 chance roughly of MoA, there is a high chance of those close ranged beasts moving ahead much faster than they should, however even assuming no luck there, the list is built to be a solid allrounder that pushes up across the board with no glaring holes to its composition. I use Mawloc alike some peoples Gargs, he makes a great tarpit but just has a lot of versatility in general and is depedant on what the match calls for. In my opinion, this is the strongest possible list I can think of for Nids, and is my build for competitive, tournament or tournament style play. If I'm playing competitive, this is what I bring, I've never feel the need to play anything else if it's a serious match.
However, here's something very similar to my main list from 6th, that got objectively and cripplingly worse in every way in 7th making it my friendlier fun list:
1500 points:
Spoiler:
Flyrant, TL-Devs, eGrubs Flyrant, TL-Devs, eGrubs
Venomthrope
3x Rippers, DS 3x Rippers, DS
18x Gargoyles Crone Crone
Mawloc, AG Mawloc, AG Mawloc, AG
This was a hyper aggressive list that used no points on Synapse, but models that will all pretty much be on their side of the board turn 2 to benefit from Dominion Flyrants, and all of whom pretty much work fine outside of Synapse anyway. 1 Venomthrope and 15 Gargs to give a cover save to the flyers turn 1 to stop alpha strike before they get airborne.
This style of list was a lot better back in 6th when Crones had an amazing Vektor Strike, could assault, and Mawlocs could Smash. As it stands it's a very in your face Nidzilla build.
This is a lot of fun. I'm not saying that it's terrible and I'm not going to argue that it's brilliant, but it's fun as hell and can win games, although that's not why I play as it's generally my friendly list. Some synergy between Mawlocs and Lictors. Especially since only 4 MCs make for easy transport. Plus, when your opponents are setting up assault terminators with storm shields, thunderwolf cavalry, and Khymerae blobs, and you are setting up the 15 Lictors, you automatically become the manliest MF'er in the room, this is a pretty undeniable fact. Your opponent then proceeds to ask you what models in your army have Synapse this game, and you proceed to answer "none whatsoever", there is a very high possibility that he will immediately pack up and concede due to the overbearing masculinity being exuded by your list.
I see you like your void shield generators lol...I'm more of a bastion man myself but I definitely see the merit. I really like your list #2, but I'm curious to know why you run the second Malanthrope. You don't find it redundant?
I own a Void Shield Generator, and an Aegis Line, but no bastion. Personally, I think the VSG is a great fit for the Barbed heirodule.
List 2 does have an extra malanthrope. I've been playing around with it quite a bit. I think I'm dropping a malan and 2 Gants for a Zoey (Warp charge battery for flyrants), and another squad of rippers. The other option is to drop the ally detachment and go with this:
That's pretty cool that you have the actual model...I really should convert one up. I bet those Tyranid Spore Chimneys (or whatever they are) would work great as a starting point. I wonder, though, about the tradeoffs of those void shields. Shame that they have to be inside the deployment zone now. But even so, you have some great durability (which will probably regenerate over the course of the battle a little). Less single target protection than a Malanthrope but much more AOE protection. I think I might give that a go one of these days (as it is exactly the same points as the bastion - how convenient GW!)
Tag would it be too huge a favor to ask for some measurements on the building? I would just like to know the 3 dimensions as best as I can if I make a conversion (which the more I think about it, the more I want to)
luke1705 wrote: Well won't he look silly next to the original conversion
It's all good. They're like 2 peas in a pod.
SHUPPET wrote: I don't think jy2 cares too much about consistency looking at his army lol. Lot of different colours shapes and sizes in there, its like a kaleidoscope
To be fair, I bought way more stuff from Ebay than I have time to work on. Besides Tyranids, I have about 6-7 other armies that I jump back and forth on from time to time.
And BTW, about 70% of that army is mine and the rest is my friends.
What really impresses me with the list is not the fact that you dare run it, but that you actually went out and got yourself 14 lictors.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
luke1705 wrote: That's pretty cool that you have the actual model...I really should convert one up. I bet those Tyranid Spore Chimneys (or whatever they are) would work great as a starting point. I wonder, though, about the tradeoffs of those void shields. Shame that they have to be inside the deployment zone now. But even so, you have some great durability (which will probably regenerate over the course of the battle a little). Less single target protection than a Malanthrope but much more AOE protection. I think I might give that a go one of these days (as it is exactly the same points as the bastion - how convenient GW!)
Tag would it be too huge a favor to ask for some measurements on the building? I would just like to know the 3 dimensions as best as I can if I make a conversion (which the more I think about it, the more I want to)
You can get the best of both worlds. The bastion from the Stronghold Assault supplement allows you to get 1 Void Shield for your bastion.
BTW, here's a model that InControl uses as his VSG. It used to be his spore pod back when spore pods were still spore pods.
luke1705 wrote: That's pretty cool that you have the actual model...I really should convert one up. I bet those Tyranid Spore Chimneys (or whatever they are) would work great as a starting point. I wonder, though, about the tradeoffs of those void shields. Shame that they have to be inside the deployment zone now. But even so, you have some great durability (which will probably regenerate over the course of the battle a little). Less single target protection than a Malanthrope but much more AOE protection. I think I might give that a go one of these days (as it is exactly the same points as the bastion - how convenient GW!)
Tag would it be too huge a favor to ask for some measurements on the building? I would just like to know the 3 dimensions as best as I can if I make a conversion (which the more I think about it, the more I want to)
I sent it to be painted right now, and there are a few commissions before mine, so I won't have it back for a month or two. I'll post the measurements when I get it. It is a tad taller than the bastion but not quite as bulky. Before mine arrived I was proxying with a friend's bastion. I got mine from a recaster and I can PM you the link if you are interested. It was $75.
Here is a picture next to a knight:
Spoiler:
Most of what I know about VSG is pure theory hammer. I've proxied it a handful of times (and twice I forgot all about the Void Shields). But the key differences between a VSG and a Bastion with a Void Shield is:
-You can occupy the Bastion
-The Bastion has battlements
-For the same price you get 3 Void Shields instead of 1.
-It gives you good protection from Thunderfire Cannons.
This is the list I am curently in the process of building (done with the flyrants and a crone, attacking the next 3 crones atm
CAD:
2 flyrant with electroshock
4 ripper swarms with ds
3 crone
2 mawloc
Allied:
Flyrant with electroshock
1 ripper swarm with ds
1 crone
total 1845
The concept is for the entire army to be mobile since this is the way to go in 7th edition.
The offense part of this list comes in the form of overwhelming str 6 attacks (36 tl direct shots, 4 templates and 2 large blasts.) There is also a massive ammount of haywire attacks (3e grub templates and 16 tentaclid missiles).
The defensive part comes in the form of needing skyfire to attack most part of the army and redundancy.
The ob sec rippers get where they need to be with ds.
The element of risk and randomness in the army comes from the 2 mawlocs and rippers with scattering and instinctive behavior rolls, but given the theme, I think they fit in well.
roxor08 wrote: Sorry to throw this in, but I was wondering if anyone has done the math comparison between T-fex and Dakkafexen?
Spoiler:
Specifically, I'm looking for 1 T-fex w/Acid spray + E. grubs and 2 Dakkafexen. If possibly, I was hoping the person who'd do this could include info like PPW (points per wound), Damage output to T4, T5, and T6, while also showing the durability against S6-8 shooting AND AP 2-4 shooting.
For some reason my mind isn't working today and I can't fathom how to set this up in excel....
Obviously, to do this we'd have to make assumptions so would it be absurd to say that Acid spray can hit 5 models and E. grubs can hit 4?
If this has (or something similar to it) has already been done, can someone refer me to it?
Thanks!
Here is the math you requested, but I submit that it isn't all that meaningful because usually tyranid MC's are taking cover saves against low AP weapons, and your number for the models hit by the templates are exceptionally high in my opinion. If I can pull that many hits off in an entire game with a Tfex it is an accomplishment. I think 2.25 and 0.75 would be a more representative number of hits.
# Of wounds caused against selected toughness values
I understand that EG probably won't get 4 hits, but you don't think that AS will? I mean being a torrent flamer gives you TONS of flexibility. I would imagine that only against MSU is where you'll struggle to get that many hits. Maybe I have too high of expectations. Although it does illustrate what I'm looking for. For the points equivalent investment on 2 Dakkafex, a T-fex (using 5 AS his, 4 EG hits) will do 10.8/7.95/5.7/3.45/2.25/1.2 W to each respective target T. Contrast this with the 2 Dakkafex: 15/12/9/6/3/3/0.
Not only do Dakkafex have a longer range, but they do more damage.
# Of hits of various Strength and AP to kill
Here's the ratio spread between the above survivability:
1.125 / 1.6875 / 1.35 / 1.125 / 1.75 / 1.05 / 1.05 / 1.25 / 1.375
So I guess the point is that you'll sacrifice damage output, but you'll gain a minor boost in survivability....
2 zopes
1 zope and some screening gaunts/gargs
2 units screeners
Warriors
I plan to expand to a LAN for 1850 so the warriors might be the best bet but I feel like I need a zope or two to for chance at onslaught on the fexen. Maybe I need to drop a fexen for more two zopes and screening units or a Void Shield generator.
2 zopes
1 zope and some screening gaunts/gargs
2 units screeners
Warriors
I plan to expand to a LAN for 1850 so the warriors might be the best bet but I feel like I need a zope or two to for chance at onslaught on the fexen. Maybe I need to drop a fexen for more two zopes and screening units or a Void Shield generator.
I'd go with 1 zope and some screening gargoyles. Gargoyles are an excellent fast and cheap utility unit that can benefit almost any army, especially ones with a primarily ground force. They are also fast enough that if you do cast Onslaught on your fexes, they won't be impeded by their screening unit.
2 zopes
1 zope and some screening gaunts/gargs
2 units screeners
Warriors
I plan to expand to a LAN for 1850 so the warriors might be the best bet but I feel like I need a zope or two to for chance at onslaught on the fexen. Maybe I need to drop a fexen for more two zopes and screening units or a Void Shield generator.
I'd go with 1 zope and some screening gargoyles. Gargoyles are an excellent fast and cheap utility unit that can benefit almost any army, especially ones with a primarily ground force. They are also fast enough that if you do cast Onslaught on your fexes, they won't be impeded by their screening unit.
Thank you
I was leaning towards gargs and Zope. The move to 1750 and 1850 is where I need to evaluate.
SHUPPET wrote: I don't think jy2 cares too much about consistency looking at his army lol. Lot of different colours shapes and sizes in there, its like a kaleidoscope
To be fair, I bought way more stuff from Ebay than I have time to work on. Besides Tyranids, I have about 6-7 other armies that I jump back and forth on from time to time.
Haha yeah, I wasn't ragging on it btw, just saying that to the owner of that army, having 2 different models for one unit probably doesn't hold too much relevance lol. Nothing wrong with it, everyone can make their army as unison as they like, all the models still do the same thing on the table
jy2 wrote: What really impresses me with the list is not the fact that you dare run it, but that you actually went out and got yourself 14 lictors.
I converted mine cheaply (but cool-ly!). I'm not that brave !
We need to have a unit in our army like a dimathrope. He'd be an auto-take for me cuz then my army would be so dope.
that's good, it actually took me a second to get that, I was about to post, "Yeah and we'd have to call it a-" then I realised.
On that note, considering no other army has the setback of Synapse, and actually all have BENEFICIAL army wide rules, it would be nice to see a new MC or unit that didn't pay so much for Synapse. Mopes aside (as their Synapse is kinda free) but is also kinda unlikely to ever be relevant lol since most games it should be the first thing going down, and taking that Synapse with it, so doesn't seem like a reliable choice.
Flyrants, Zopes, and Warriors all seem to playably priced Synapse coverage, but that's about where it ends. Tervigon, Trygon Prime, Tyranid Prime, Swarmy & Shrikes, are mostly unplayable to niche at best (Tervigon and Shrikes) and thats being generous. Would be nice to see just a well priced troop choice, who gives Synapse, doesn't heavily punish your list for doing so (like the current Tervigon), and is playable on it's own merits (like last years Tervigon).
This is just wishlisting obviously, but still, definitely an area that I would look at if it was me writing the next codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I wish we did write the codex, I swear the way this forum discusses Nid tactica we would do a better job of ironing out the kinks than GWs development team in it's prime, and for free as well
I play mostly Nidzilla with Tyradactyl support. This is my usual core I always try to work around. I like to keep a single CAD and no formations because of the difference in what FLGS around me allow things. Not to say I wouldn't be open to them, but as simple as possible should preemptively keep any griping down.
HQ- Flyrant(Egrubs, 2x Devourers)
HQ- Flyrant(Egrubs, 2x Devourers)
ET- Hive Guard(3)
ET- Hive Guard(3)
ET- Malanthrope
HS- Carnifex(2) Double Devourers
HS- Biovores(2)
Comes to 1275. Currently I'm considering a Hive Crone and a Bastion(MopeBox and platform for my Biovores to attack from with built-in babysitter). Troops I'm lost on. Don't know if I want to go rippers, warrior/shrikes, or a Tervigon to wander up with the Carnifex and Guards to make sure they shoot what I want them to.
pretre wrote: Here it is:
Lords of War Gaming There will be a campaign book that is released early November. Necrons are not for a while I know of two armies that are next and another codex that will shock people next year.
Lords of War Gaming I been told that there will be a box like storm claw. BA for sure but I don't know it its Nids or Necrons. If I was to guess I would say Necrons following the Storm Claw model.
Ross Mason What time are we talking for the Nid Release?
Lords of War Gaming The should release soon, within 6-7 weeks.
just as a share really for fellow nidders - sounds like Nids are going to be apart of the next campaign book.
so, new formations as well as the new Nid monster that has been rumoured.
also, the shocking and unexpected codex... Dare I say it? I'm 90% keen for something new in Q1 of 2015.
I saw that rumor and am very excited about whatever the new dude is (especially because the last time we got a release, the rumors were that we would get something that could stand toe-to-toe with a wraithknight and we got....the Haruspex. Fail) I had heard that there would be two models (so most likely a dual kit) and that it would be pretty soon. Remember tha 7 weeks from now is early-mid December. Sounds like Christmas will be merry. Although TBH, all I want is for Forgeworld to release a letter that says,
Dear Tyranid players,
We realize that we were very wrong and having a Monstrous Creature with no guns only move 6" (in the Fast Attack slot no less) is very silly. As a result, the rules PDF has been updated and the Dimachaeron now has a 12" move.
luke1705 wrote: I saw that rumor and am very excited about whatever the new dude is (especially because the last time we got a release, the rumors were that we would get something that could stand toe-to-toe with a wraithknight and we got....the Haruspex. Fail) I had heard that there would be two models (so most likely a dual kit) and that it would be pretty soon. Remember tha 7 weeks from now is early-mid December. Sounds like Christmas will be merry. Although TBH, all I want is for Forgeworld to release a letter that says,
Dear Tyranid players,
We realize that we were very wrong and having a Monstrous Creature with no guns only move 6" (in the Fast Attack slot no less) is very silly. As a result, the rules PDF has been updated and the Dimachaeron now has a 12" move.
Thank you for your support,
Forge World
Add;
And to show you how sorry we are, please find attached flesh hooks, fearless and GMC status at no extra cost.
luke1705 wrote: I saw that rumor and am very excited about whatever the new dude is (especially because the last time we got a release, the rumors were that we would get something that could stand toe-to-toe with a wraithknight and we got....the Haruspex. Fail) I had heard that there would be two models (so most likely a dual kit) and that it would be pretty soon. Remember tha 7 weeks from now is early-mid December. Sounds like Christmas will be merry. Although TBH, all I want is for Forgeworld to release a letter that says,
Dear Tyranid players,
We realize that we were very wrong and having a Monstrous Creature with no guns only move 6" (in the Fast Attack slot no less) is very silly. As a result, the rules PDF has been updated and the Dimachaeron now has a 12" move.
Thank you for your support,
Forge World
Would it be safe to say that that would propel Dima to a top 3 most played model in the codex? I mean, you'd still need numbers but 3 Dimas would be very playable and the only other real option to Dakkafexes and Flyrants
We realize that we were very wrong and having a Monstrous Creature with no guns only move 6" (in the Fast Attack slot no less) is very silly. As a result, the rules PDF has been updated and the Dimachaeron now has a 12" move.
TBH I don't know if I would take the Haruspex even if it moved 12". I mean for friendly games sure. But it just looks so mediocre even when it gets there. It can chew through troops but if you throw anything MEANT to be in assault, it underperforms pretty handsomely. That being said, if you got MOA and ran Dakkafexes (or just had a regular game with Flyrants) you could (in this 12" theoretical fantasy world) have NINE TMC CHARGING ON TURN 2. Now THAT would be a list I could run all day long.
I think if Haruspex was the only MC we had with a 12" move he'd definitely be considerable, getting a couple of T6 tanks into CC turn 2 is at the very least, going to deny a bunch of shooting, even if they can't wreck tanks like Fexes can
I don't think it's fair to say that the Dima would be "fixed" with a 12" move speed, just because we'd all play him.....it's possible he'd still be unbalanced, just on the other end of the spectrum... He would definitely be our Wraithknight, and I know it's only CC damage projection but he would still be crazy strong... I think to fix him, he just needs a wings upgrade (Flymachaeron), with a 35 pt cost increase for that 12" move speed, I think he'd be balanced and also deserving of that FA slot.
Simple, easy, and obvious. I'm not thinking that is GW's style. I'm thinking it would be better if we had to roll a dice and then consult a chart to determine how far they get to move.
All of the fixes are simple. Eternal Warrior fixes Warriors, Shrikes, and Raveners, and Assault 3 fixes Heavy Venom Cannon and the Harpy. Torrent might not fix Pyrovores, but it makes them better. Haywire fixes Trygons. Beast unit type and grenades fixes genestealers.
The problems are obvious and fixes are easy. But I wouldn't expect fixes anytime soon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: I think if Haruspex was the only MC we had with a 12" move he'd definitely be considerable, getting a couple of T6 tanks into CC turn 2 is at the very least, going to deny a bunch of shooting, even if they can't wreck tanks like Fexes can
Haruspex has S7 armorbane. He can deal with vehicles fairly well.
SHUPPET wrote: I think if Haruspex was the only MC we had with a 12" move he'd definitely be considerable, getting a couple of T6 tanks into CC turn 2 is at the very least, going to deny a bunch of shooting, even if they can't wreck tanks like Fexes can
Haruspex has S7 armorbane. He can deal with vehicles fairly well.
It has always struck me that both the Pyrovore and the now the Haruspex were spec'ed expecting a lot of Cities of Death, Planet Strike or Stronghold type games. Basigcly things with lots of static high AV and fire ports.
Preferred Enemy and Armour Bane fixes Trygons, to make up for the loss of ScyTals and Smash.
They cost about 150% the price of a Mawloc, they deserve it. They NEED it.
The rest are all very true. Although I'd argue that the HVC might need Heavy 4.
Tervigon needs a big point reduction and/or his Gant buffing back. He was nerfed hard enough by Crushing Claws/Smash/Feeback/Loss of Catalyst, he didn't need a points increase, and to provide nothing to his gants except an increased Nuke on top of that.
A couple of HQ's just need points reductions. T Prime and Deathleaper should both be <100. Another big issue for the Prime is that his role is as our customisable wargear HQ, and all our wargear fckin sucks, and thats what really needs to be looked at here.
Swarmlord however needs a lot of things, not least of which being a decent Psyker table to support his role (like, BRB powers). At the moment where he sits is as not just the worst model in the dex, but possible contender for the worst in the GAME. I'm not even sure where to begin with this guy, but taking somewhere around 50 to 100 points off his cost would be a good start, as would be severely revamping his support abilities, and strongly consider giving him access to the BrB tables, which would kind of be explainable since he is the most akin and attuned to the understanding and workings of the human race, and the rest of the universe, out of all the Nids ever created
Old One Eye is in a similar boat. He could cost LESS than a Dakkafex and still unlikely see play. Unless they give him TL-Devs and make him the Arnorld-Swaznegger-Terminator of Carnifexes who went on that rampage shooting the place up with his Devourers, regenerating, and being a badass tanky little Fex, then his role is pretty useless. There isn't much room for 6" moving assault range Heavy AT, it's narrow in its role, easy to avoid, and adds nothing else, which is why TL-Dev's make Fexes so good.
Walkrant sits in this category of walking CC beast, and unlike others, I would like to argue that the 2+ is not what killed this model at all, in a time of AP2 feeling like its more common than AP3 anyway. 2+ save or not, taking a Walkrant is a concious decision to sacrifice mobility by not taking wings instead. He has Tyrant Guard to tank for him, who are balanced, just he himself, is not worth spending all those points on alone, let alone giving him an honour guard. No, he needs something to make him do his role better than a Swarmlord. I would argue that he was never very good even in 5E dex, but the biggest loss to him was indisputably Old Enemy. That AOE Preferred Enemy bubble was perfect for supporting an entire walking army, now he has nothing. He needs not just that option back, but also I think one more thing similar. Being an ML3 Psyker for a 50/50 chance of Catalyst, and maybe a Furious Charge or activatable Rage bubble (might be more balanced and extremely cool and fluffy, directing all units in Synapse range of him into a feeding frenzy for a turn). The role you need him for if you choose not to make him your highly mobile winged Devourer predator of the board, is definitely one of support and utility, being a Synapse provider is already there, a decent table is already there, he just needs a few tweaks for this role, to pay off for his delayed arrival across the board
The problem with tossing out eternal warrior for synapse creatures is that there's no real place for it to stop. A much easier fix would be to make models like the Warriors or Ravenors toughness 5, giving much of the same end-effect. Also, there has been a marked effort by GW to get rid of Eternal Warrior. It's especially stupid when you look at the Daemons codex. Skarbrand can't even get it (not that he really needs it but still - that dude should have it).
My point is that you can't have warriors have eternal warrior but then not have Flyrants have it. I do believe that GW considered it (as well as hopefully a modified eternal warrior to creatures within synapse) but no luck. That being said, it would increase our power level, which isn't top-tier right now but we're not too shabby either.
Edited to remove a proposed table because I realized it didn't function properly - it's late
luke1705 wrote: The problem with tossing out eternal warrior for synapse creatures is that there's no real place for it to stop. A much easier fix would be to make models like the Warriors or Ravenors toughness 5, giving much of the same end-effect. Also, there has been a marked effort by GW to get rid of Eternal Warrior. It's especially stupid when you look at the Daemons codex. Skarbrand can't even get it (not that he really needs it but still - that dude should have it).
My point is that you can't have warriors have eternal warrior but then not have Flyrants have it. I do believe that GW considered it (as well as hopefully a modified eternal warrior to creatures within synapse) but no luck. That being said, it would increase our power level, which isn't top-tier right now but we're not too shabby either.
Edited to remove a proposed table because I realized it didn't function properly - it's late
I doubt it was considered at all. 4e it was stable and not much of an issue. Just go back to 2 wounds and Synapse EW on the the T4 units. It has little to no effect on the big T6 MCs. and only minimal toughness increase on the T5.
luke1705 wrote: I saw that rumor and am very excited about whatever the new dude is (especially because the last time we got a release, the rumors were that we would get something that could stand toe-to-toe with a wraithknight and we got....the Haruspex. Fail) I had heard that there would be two models (so most likely a dual kit) and that it would be pretty soon. Remember tha 7 weeks from now is early-mid December. Sounds like Christmas will be merry. Although TBH, all I want is for Forgeworld to release a letter that says,
Dear Tyranid players,
We realize that we were very wrong and having a Monstrous Creature with no guns only move 6" (in the Fast Attack slot no less) is very silly. As a result, the rules PDF has been updated and the Dimachaeron now has a 12" move.
Thank you for your support,
Forge World
Add;
And to show you how sorry we are, please find attached flesh hooks, fearless and GMC status at no extra cost.
This is what I was saying several pages back is that Tyranids needed a counter to the wraightknight not a wraith knight like model. Amazing how a 12 inch move would change the way we play.
Front line flyers
Dimas as the second wave
Fexen in the third wave
Would be OMG almost like a big swarm and endless tide...oh is that called fluff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
luke1705 wrote: The problem with tossing out eternal warrior for synapse creatures is that there's no real place for it to stop. A much easier fix would be to make models like the Warriors or Ravenors toughness 5, giving much of the same end-effect. Also, there has been a marked effort by GW to get rid of Eternal Warrior. It's especially stupid when you look at the Daemons codex. Skarbrand can't even get it (not that he really needs it but still - that dude should have it).
My point is that you can't have warriors have eternal warrior but then not have Flyrants have it. I do believe that GW considered it (as well as hopefully a modified eternal warrior to creatures within synapse) but no luck. That being said, it would increase our power level, which isn't top-tier right now but we're not too shabby either.
Edited to remove a proposed table because I realized it didn't function properly - it's late
The justification for removing EW from synapse was giving the models another wound. That has not worked. There is so much strength 8 in the game that warriors melt. Ravenors being T5 would have to drop to 1w with there speed because you could never stop them from hitting your lines with t5 and 3w.
I look at them and screamers and they have similar stat lines and movement but screamers have better utility with a ap2 str5 armor bane attack. I know rending is supposed to be similar but it does not compete. That is the type of utility Tyranids need.
Swarmlord however needs a lot of things, not least of which being a decent Psyker table to support his role (like, BRB powers). At the moment where he sits is as not just the worst model in the dex, but possible contender for the worst in the GAME. I'm not even sure where to begin with this guy, but taking somewhere around 50 to 100 points off his cost would be a good start, as would be severely revamping his support abilities, and strongly consider giving him access to the BrB tables, which would kind of be explainable since he is the most akin and attuned to the understanding and workings of the human race, and the rest of the universe, out of all the Nids ever created.
Have you ever tried swarmlord in 7th ed ? I have and he is absolutely AMAZING! I have killed 2 wraithknights in the same game with him. Most of the time he gets on the board where you want him to be and your opponent is usually scared the hell out of him after seeing what he does in melee. He is FAR from the worst unit in the game! How can a beefy lvl 3 psyker that inflicts auto ap2, instant death with a crazy number of attacks be the worst unit in the game?! This baby is AWESOME !
How can a beefy lvl 3 psyker that inflicts auto ap2, instant death with a crazy number of attacks be the worst unit in the game?!
And there it is.
Remember the most important stat, on any model - its POINTS.
That's one of many reasons it sucks, the value of what you get is tiny. Every MC has auto AP2 , and he has less attacks and wounds than the same amount of points put into, well practically any of the good MC's in our dex. Obviously more weapon skills, but hey - there isn't a single playable MC in our dex that is strictly CC, and it's not because they don't hit hard enough, it's because if we make it to CC we generally win anyway, our options for shooting are much better, and the reliability of having any choice in targets with a 6" movespeed MC is close to nothing. And if there was to be one a 300 point one with 5 wounds. You are paying 56 points a wound - thats more than DOUBLE some of our better MC's in the dex, making Swarmy stupidly thin for his points. You can't catch anything important your opponent doesn't stupidly let you catch, his support abilities while not 100% useless are more like 75% useless and unlikely to have any bearing on a game, and he has 3 rolls on a table that does almost nothing for him, the best one being a 5+ FNP which assuming you got every game, still doesn't even come close to making him have any sort of cost effective durability, and all for a model that in CC may not even hit as hard as the Dima. The Dima who is also a gimmicky fun model that relies on your opponent playing a CC army or playing his shooty army, badly, but is still leagues better than Swarmlords joke of a ruleset.
Tried it in 7th? I don't see how this is at all relevant, since I tried him a lot in 6th, and then since hes gotten worse in absolutely every single way from early 6th > to our codex release in late 6th > all the way to 7th, hes gotten substantially shittier.
Your report is not enough to change my opinion, if he was the type of unit to kill 2 Wraithknights or something similar consistently he would be much better, but how it even got into combat with one 12" moving jump MC, let alone the second one shortly after that is one hell of a question.
Just because a model does a lot of gak doesn't mean it can't be bad. And in this case, really bad. At 150 points he'd be considerable. Flyrants would still be better, but he'd be considerable, as a niche fun unit, taken with some Tyrant Guard of course. At double that in cost, he's just... junk. Absolute basura. Hands down worse than any Pyrovore, Haruspex, Trygon Prime, every piece of crap model we have in our dex, he is worse than. At least Pyrovore doesn't blow 1/4 of your points (after factoring in the mandatory Tyrant Guard) and force you to take only 1 Flyrant.
Actually, Swarmy adds a lot to an army, his biggest pitfall however is that his inclusion demands you build the army around him. His biggest upsell is that it means you can skip certain naturally taken upgrades due to his force multipliers.
ductvader wrote: Actually, Swarmy adds a lot to an army, his biggest pitfall however is that his inclusion demands you build the army around him. His biggest upsell is that it means you can skip certain naturally taken upgrades due to his force multipliers.
I easily win 75% of my games where I include swarmlord in my army. He is much better in Maelstrom than Eternal War, and works much like a Dimacharon with a few advantages and disadvantages. I'll write a Swarmlord tactica in a few days. But as I've said before, while he may be overcosted, he is nowhere near the most overcosted unit in our dex. The one thing that swarmlord needs more than anything else is Eternal Warrior. about 7/8 times he dies it is to a force weapon.
ductvader wrote: Actually, Swarmy adds a lot to an army, his biggest pitfall however is that his inclusion demands you build the army around him. His biggest upsell is that it means you can skip certain naturally taken upgrades due to his force multipliers.
The one thing that swarmlord needs more than anything else is Eternal Warrior. about 7/8 times he dies it is to a force weapon.
Agreed, and he deserves it...or OOE...at least one of them should have it.
zerosignal wrote: I'd love to know exactly what you're playing against to get that kind of win percentage...
Agreed. While I win a lot of games and could just use my ratiios to support any unit decisions I make, 40k isn't CoD and I am quite capable of separating the games that I won, from the ones that my opponent LOST by being at a lower level than me. I feel confident I could build a list with three Haruspex in it and maintain a very positive ratio against certain members of my club - that really doesn't have any bearing on the strength of the Spexy tho does it.
And it's not just about the list they were playing, your opponent can be playing competitive Eldar, if he walks two Wraithknights into a Swarmlord like he's a potato, he's done the very opposite of what his actual play should have been, and that is just forcing you to play a 1000 pt list in a 1500 pt game because you chose to take a Swarmlord (adjust numbers where relevant). It's very easy for most armies to do especially Eldar, he's a 6" move + run no fleet kinda guy, why would you ever be in a situation where you left 2 Wraithknights in charge range of him, especially considering the entire rest of a Tyranid army has to be moving up the board with him or they are wasted points, meaning you would really never be forced to do this even if you did feel target priority on something else was so drastic that it's worth throwing away a WK for - it STILL shouldn't happen. But even assuming this WASNT the case with Nids and they did have plenty of critical backfield threats (lol) - believe or not there would almost always be more options than a choice between just "being out of range" and "being in charge range of a Swarmlord". These options may or may not fall under the category of "putting thought into the positioning of your minis". Rather than just doing an automated 12" move directly towards your target every turn until it dies as if you're the Terminator, to make sure all guns are in range and eventually deny his cover save through point blank range face to face line of sight (at least. I think that's why people do this, god help me I can't think of any other reason).
Tactica or no, until I see a battle report or two showing how all the logic behind him sucking is inaccurate due to some amazing advantage he brings to your list that I've just been missing, I'm remaining securely unconvinced that he is at all playable, or anything close to a 75% win rate. If you aren't playing blood angels or Orks he should never en come close to making his points back. And even then, he shouldn't. The decision to take a Swarmlord is a conscious decision to sacrifice 24 twin linked S6 shots getting fired every single turn that Swarmlord is waddling up the field (except the first), for a payoff on the model that is literally THE LEAST likely model to make it into combat in the game. Slowest type of model in the game, can't even make it past bubble wraps, base so big making bubble wraps easier, absolutely no form of transport or mobility, and him and his honor guard are 400 points minimum of "avoid charge range of me please" in an entire army that already has "stay out of 18" from me please". He'd be better in a different army, although still worthless, he'd be better.
The justification for removing EW from synapse was giving the models another wound. That has not worked.
It would have worked if the warriors hadn't suffered a 50% price increase. If current multi-wound infantry was 33% cheaper they at least would be fielded more often.
zerosignal wrote: I'd love to know exactly what you're playing against to get that kind of win percentage...
I posted my standard TAC lists a few pages back, when I run Swarmy it is in fluffier games with the exception of Drop Pod Marines who get demolished by one of my Swarmy lists. I took swarmy to a tournament a while back. Tied for 3rd place by radically outscoring all of my opponents except for serpent spam Eldar, who I was beating until he managed to kill Swarmy on turn 4.
If i'm taking a swarmlord list I'm usually running a hoard army, and I'm either going to control the center of the board or get tabled. In my meta where Maelstrom is the preferred mission among fluffier armies, central board control with many large scoring units creates a dominant position that is difficult for my opponents to contend with.
The most important thing about Swarmlord that makes him a good choice for a player who is more competitive than his meta is by running a swarmlord list with a hoard army, you can win lots and lots of games without leaving opponents feel upset they lost. Because Swarmy + Hoard has trouble with vehicles, and limited speed, and isn't usually tabling anyone. Also, Swarmy + Hoard, you are going to lose a vast majority of your models in most games, even in victory. In those cases the opponent feels a sense of moral victory even if they lost. Also, Swarmy plus his Tyrant Guard are a deathstar, but a pretty mild one that players don't feel is insurmountable.
A typical list for swarmlord looks like this:
Spoiler:
Swarmlord + 3 Tyrant Guard (Crushing Claws for 1 of them)
3 Hive Guard <- Or another Dakkafex, Or 3 Zoeys
Venomthrope
Zoenthrope <- Or a 2nd Venom
19 Hormagants
20 Termagants (10 Devourers, 10 Spinefists)
20 Termagants (10 Devourers, 10 Fleshborers) <- Mainly to keep the squads separate
3 Warriors (BS)
20 Gargoyles
2 Carnifexes (2 TL-Devouers) <- Or 2 Crones, Or Trygon Prime
Mawloc <- comes in on a 2+
Mawloc
Remember the idea of these sorts of lists is fluffy opponents, so no Malanthropes or Dakka flyrants.
Calculating the numbers of Hive Guard vs Dakkafexes Shooting at infantry / MC
Assault infantry / MC
Shooting at vehicles
Shooting at Jinking vehicles
Assaulting vehicles
In summary. Dakkafexes are significantly better than Hive Guard. The only case where hive guard outperform dakkafexes is shooting at Jinking vehicles, and even then the advantage is mitigated by the Dakkafexes's superior assault.
Don't why why I thought Devilfexes only had 6 shots. Brains lip there. More of a corner case, but fexes can't deal with armor over 12 outside of assault. Would the longer range, ignore cover, no need for line of sight, and AP pick up any of the slack?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also your shooting at vehicles lists the fexes hitting armor 13+, which should be impossible...
Automatically Appended Next Post: And sorry, what about something like a Wraithknight(T8)?
Sinful Hero wrote: Don't why why I thought Devilfexes only had 6 shots. Brains lip there. More of a corner case, but fexes can't deal with armor over 12 outside of assault. Would the longer range, ignore cover, no need for line of sight, and AP pick up any of the slack?
You probably were arming them with Deathspitters instead of Devourers. Each Devourer gets 6 shots, and they take 2 of them.
The longer range and ignore cover are meaningful. However my numbers represent the average case. The Dakkafex with its high volume of fire will usually end up pretty close to average. Hive Guard on the other hand have a very, very high distribution of likely results. This is why they are so polarizing. You will find optimistic people who remember that one time that it shot at a wave serpent and killed it in one round of shooting, and for that they will always love hive guard more than the numbers represent. On the other hand you will find pessimists like me who remember the one time that Hive Guard shot at a Wave Serpent for 5 turns, and only did 1 hull point, and that hull point came when, in exasperation, they assaulted a serpent, and Hive Guard will always be worse than the numbers.
Sinful Hero wrote: Also your shooting at vehicles lists the fexes hitting armor 13+, which should be impossible...
I had them doing "-" wounds to AV 13 and 14. "-" is code for "not possible".
Sinful Hero wrote: And sorry, what about something like a Wraithknight(T8)?
Wraithknight added. In shooting they both do 0.5 Wounds. In assault the Dakkafex fairs considerably better.
Sinful Hero wrote: Don't why why I thought Devilfexes only had 6 shots. Brains lip there. More of a corner case, but fexes can't deal with armor over 12 outside of assault. Would the longer range, ignore cover, no need for line of sight, and AP pick up any of the slack?
You probably were arming them with Deathspitters instead of Devourers. Each Devourer gets 6 shots, and they take 2 of them.
Sinful Hero wrote: Also your shooting at vehicles lists the fexes hitting armor 13+, which should be impossible...
I had them doing "-" wounds to AV 13 and 14. "-" is code for "not possible".
Sinful Hero wrote: And sorry, what about something like a Wraithknight(T8)?
Wraithknight added. In shooting they both do 0.5 Wounds. In assault the Dakkafex fairs considerably better.
That's all fairly disappointing. Considering you also used 2+ and 3+ save models for your calculations ignores cover doesn't help much. So the Hive Guards niche is shooting AV13+ and jinking vehicles.
Hey I have a question for y'all. Has anyone been having success with lictors?
I ran the lictor formation: Death leaper and 5 solo lictors recently in a few test games and in a tournament(battle for salvation on the east coast) as come the apocalypse allies with my old dark eldar in their final run before the new codex. And I have to say they were a great success, and has me wondering if anyone has incorporated them into tyranid lists or other weird allied formats.
I love the models and so have been itching to maybe run a pure tyranid army along with the formation, as the new dark eldar codex isnt really inspiring me at the moment.
Are people on this thread (Tag8833, Shuppet) saying that the HVC should tripple to quadruple its damage output before its a decent option? let me guess, you also think this should be a free upgrade right? Sounds a bit greedy to me.
I would be completely satisfied if they were assault2 with a 10pts increase on the upgrades for these. Am I silly or do others also feel this would be enough.
fartherthanfar wrote: Are people on this thread (Tag8833, Shuppet) saying that the HVC should tripple to quadruple its damage output before its a decent option? let me guess, you also think this should be a free upgrade right? Sounds a bit greedy to me.
I would be completely satisfied if they were assault2 with a 10pts increase on the upgrades for these. Am I silly or do others also feel this would be enough.
I think it should be Assault 3 rather than Blast. I am trading the area of effect for rate of fire. It still wouldn't be as good as a melta and only slightly better than a Las Cannon, so I don't think it is that greedy given that the Storm Wolf has 2 TL Multi-Metlas, 1 TL Las Cannon, and 1 TL Helfrost Cannon, plus it is tougher, and a transport for 235 points. For 130 points, expecting the Harpy to have 1/3 of that damage output isn't greedy.
fartherthanfar wrote: Are people on this thread (Tag8833, Shuppet) saying that the HVC should tripple to quadruple its damage output before its a decent option? let me guess, you also think this should be a free upgrade right? Sounds a bit greedy to me.
I would be completely satisfied if they were assault2 with a 10pts increase on the upgrades for these. Am I silly or do others also feel this would be enough.
You are silly.
The HVC upgrade for a Fex or Tyrant is one and a half meltaguns IIRC (no Dex, sorry). The suggested points increase would bring it in line with a Lascannon for a Devastator, which is one shot, Str 9, AP2 on a BS4 model that can be boosted to BS5. What you're suggesting is the same points costs for a two shot, Str 9 AP4 gun on a BS3 model. Sure the gun is "assault" but it doesn't matter because it's being carried by a MC anyway. I think this is not a way to fix it. You've kept it the same by increasing its points cost for minimal increase in effectivity. If you don't acknowledge the HVC is not good where it is at right now, then this discussion is moot as no comparison will change your mind. But if you recognize that it needs to be fixed, then giving it two shots for no points increase is plenty viable, giving it three or four shots for a 50-100% points increase would be possibly worth it (but even more niche) and changing the gun in a much more elementary way would probably be the best option. The venom cannon is supposed to be the Tyranids premier armor piercing weapon. So why does it suck at piercing all forms of armor?
oops, sorry I actually am seeing where I screwed up, I meant Assault2 BLAST, I do agree it needs to be fixed but I find that doubling its damage output is a good enough upgrade, even with a 10pts increase
BTW I am a Nids player (exclusively) so im not trying to downplay upgrades, I want a good competitive army, not to the point of getting something OP though.
but the venom cannon is NOT supposed to be the premier armor piercing gun, its actually had all sorts of rules against armor piercing in the past. Zoanthropes, Hierodule and MC are the real anti vehicules
I have been very much enjoying reading this thread. This little community within a community is certainly one of the high points of Dakka right now!
The last time the 'Nids were my main army was in 1st edition, so I am long out of serious play experience with them.
Reading this thread and playing Luke1705 with his new Dimachaeron (sp?) has certainly brought back my interest - and I have been wanting to do a Carnifexen list for years.
I know this wouldn't be a tournament list, but I think it would be great fun to run 3x3 Screamer-Killers. I would of course need an HQ and 2 troops - thinking a tyranid prime and six deep striking ripper bases to keep the tax down.
Unless I am mistaken, that would put me at 1470, with 380 left in an 1850 list.
Any thoughts? Zoanthropes en masse? Some screening gaunts? Malanthrope? Dimachaeron?
I know of course that flyrants and dakkafexxes would give me a far more competitive army, but they don't interest me - they "feel wrong" to me, which probably doesn't make any sense to the gentle reader.
How horrendously do folks feel I would be nerfing myself with this setup? I don't mind a list where I will be 50-50 win rate, but auto lose isn't any fun.
Verthane wrote: Reading this thread and playing Luke1705 with his new Dimachaeron (sp?) has certainly brought back my interest - and I have been wanting to do a Carnifexen list for years.
I know this wouldn't be a tournament list, but I think it would be great fun to run 3x3 Screamer-Killers. I would of course need an HQ and 2 troops - thinking a tyranid prime and six deep striking ripper bases to keep the tax down.
A few thoughts. 1) if you want Melee Carnifexes you should look at the Stone Crusher varient:
Spoiler:
It is considerable tougher than normal carnifexes and has some wargear options that make it intriguing.
2) Tyranid Prime can't join units of Carnifexes any more. It is a significant nerf. He doesn't work great unless you are running hoards. So I suggest one of two options.
A) Deathleaper - He is cheap, and give you opponent something to shoot at for a bit before dying. Alternatively he can deep strike without scatter.
B) Go full hog and run a dakka-Flyrant like the rest of us. It give you good anti-air, and some psychic support.
3) Malanthropes. The are the ideal support for Meleefexes. 1 Per 4-5 Carnifexes.
4) Gargoyles. They will keep your Carnifexes alive until they get there.
5) Carnifexes don't have to be fluffy/bad. They are our 3rd or 4th best unit. This Carnifex Spam list would do very well, against many, many things.
Spoiler:
Hive Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs)
Hive Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs)
fartherthanfar wrote: oops, sorry I actually am seeing where I screwed up, I meant Assault2 BLAST, I do agree it needs to be fixed but I find that doubling its damage output is a good enough upgrade, even with a 10pts increase
BTW I am a Nids player (exclusively) so im not trying to downplay upgrades, I want a good competitive army, not to the point of getting something OP though.
but the venom cannon is NOT supposed to be the premier armor piercing gun, its actually had all sorts of rules against armor piercing in the past.
Zoanthropes, Hierodule and MC are the real anti vehicules
Problem here being that Zopes only have a chance to be effective VS vehicles, Hierodule is an expensive LOW, and our MCs got smash nerfed so they arent as effective as they were, PLUS you actually have to get them into melee to use said effectiveness. So HVC is basically our only "reasonable" tankbuster firearm. So drop the blast, make it assault 3 and give it a 5pt bump. Not OP, just effective.
A fex spam list I think is close to the heart of many Tyranid players. Tag's list is actually quite good. Especially when you roll up MOA and lay down 96 strength 6 twin-linked shots....on TURN ONE. Talk about an alpha strike. Goodness.
The only way I see melee fexes being useable would be with the apocalypse formation. And to be honest, I wonder how far off we are from seeing apoc formations in regular games. Seems like something that eighth edition may very well hold in store. We already have super heavies, lords of war and the like. I don't know that allowing apocalypse formations would be that much more game-breaking, as many of them are prohibitively expensive to field and have decently marginal benefits for the size of the formation. Much like a super heavy, you would be trading power in one area for specialty in another.
That being said, if that fex formation ever does see widespread use (or any use at all), I would need to buy some Carnifexes myself
Ok, just had a game with my Fast Attack Nids and it was one of the most ridiculous games I have ever had with Tyranids before. My opponent brought out an army that he was thinking of taking to the Las Vegas Open (LVO) GT. Unfortunately for him, he brought Daemons + Chaos Space Marines with very little shooting. I knew he was going to be in for a rough time so I actually toned down my "casual" army. It's ironic to say you're toning down your list by removing a dimachaeron + some gargoyles and replacing it with a mawloc and 2 biovores, but that was exactly what I did.
(My original list did not have the biovores and mawloc. Instead it had 2 dimachaerons and 30 gargoyles.)
1850 NURGLE DAEMONS + CHAOS SPACE MARINES
My opponent brought something like this:
Greater Unclean One - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts
Greater Unclean One - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts
3x Nurglings
3x Nurglings
4x Plague Drones
4x Plague Drones
Soulgrinder - Nurgle, Phelgm
Chaos Lord - 3+/4++, Nurgle, Power Fist + Lightning Claws, Palaquin
Unit of Plague Marines w/2-3 plasmas
Unit of Havocs with 4 Krak/Flakk Missiles
So this was what happened.
Turn 1
I advance. Both flyrants fly forwards and shoot at the Havocs. I kill more than half of the unit and they break, running of the table and giving me First Blood.
Turn 2
GUO summons 1 unit of daemonettes.
Raveners assault GUO...and I actually lose combat while out of Synapse! Fortunately for me, Nurgle daemons are Slow & Purposeful, meaning that my raveners break away cleanly.
Dimachaeron kills 1 unit of plague drones.
Turn 3
Dimachaeron wipes out another unit of plague drones.
Dimachaeron also finishes off the Chaos Lord, who charges into combat to try to help out the plague drones.
Chaos wipes out my unit of gargoyles.
Malanthrope punks a unit of nurglings (well, there was only 1 left when he assaulted), thus giving all bugs within 12" Prefered Enemy.
Turn 4
Dimachaeron wipes out both GUO's.
I finish off almost everything else. The only unit left on the table is an immobilized soulgrinder with 2HP's remaining.
Turn 5
Chaos tabled.
This was basically the ideal matchup for my dimachaeron. That guy marched through my opponent's entire army, killing over 1000-pts of models!!! I can still hear my Chaos opponent swearing at the dimachaeron til this day. "The dima is so broken! Forgeworld really missed the mark on this. What the hell were they thinking?!? Is this guy actually legal at the LVO? yadda, yadda, yadda...," complained my opponent. This game has even eclipsed my other game against Space Wolves where my dimachaeron single-handedly slew 4 Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves (about 900-pts of HQ's)!!! BTW, I only lost 1 unit in the game - my gargoyles - and that was it.
Dimey may not do well in most games, especially when going up against shooty armies. But there is that 1 game in 5 where he will see a matchup that he likes. And when he does so, he will be spectacular.
This was basically the ideal matchup for my dimachaeron. That guy marched through my opponent's entire army, killing over 1000-pts of models!!! I can still hear my Chaos opponent swearing at the dimachaeron til this day. "The dima is so broken! Forgeworld really missed the mark on this. What the hell were they thinking?!? Is this guy actually legal at the LVO? yadda, yadda, yadda...," complained my opponent. This game has even eclipsed my other game against Space Wolves where my dimachaeron single-handedly slew 4 Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves (about 900-pts of HQ's)!!! BTW, I only lost 1 unit in the game - my gargoyles - and that was it.
Dimey may not do well in most games, especially when going up against shooty armies. But there is that 1 game in 5 where he will see a matchup that he likes. And when he does so, he will be spectacular.
Haha. Dimasharooni Broken? Be quiet.
I would have loved to have seen that game, sounds like it was a lot of fun ( for you anyway haha.)
Dimachaeron vs GUO's is all down to who swings first. Unfortunately GUO's have several ways to buff their initiative, and the Dimachaeron has no grenades, so it will usually be the GUO's. How did you manage to get in with a higher / the Same initiative?
Chaos is an army that a Dima might actually be good against to be fair. But for the most part, its just a model thats only broken if you make it broken.
This was basically the ideal matchup for my dimachaeron. That guy marched through my opponent's entire army, killing over 1000-pts of models!!! I can still hear my Chaos opponent swearing at the dimachaeron til this day. "The dima is so broken! Forgeworld really missed the mark on this. What the hell were they thinking?!? Is this guy actually legal at the LVO? yadda, yadda, yadda...," complained my opponent. This game has even eclipsed my other game against Space Wolves where my dimachaeron single-handedly slew 4 Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves (about 900-pts of HQ's)!!! BTW, I only lost 1 unit in the game - my gargoyles - and that was it.
Dimey may not do well in most games, especially when going up against shooty armies. But there is that 1 game in 5 where he will see a matchup that he likes. And when he does so, he will be spectacular.
Haha. Dimasharooni Broken? Be quiet.
I would have loved to have seen that game, sounds like it was a lot of fun ( for you anyway haha.)
Actually, sometimes, these types of games just aren't really fun to watch. The dima was just a counter to his army and there wasn't much that he could have done about it (well, there was, but it still would have been an uphill battle for him).
As for me, I was trying hard not to bust out laughing, but the more he ranted, the harder it was for me to control it. But don't worry, he is a good 40K friend of mine.
Dimachaeron vs GUO's is all down to who swings first. Unfortunately GUO's have several ways to buff their initiative, and the Dimachaeron has no grenades, so it will usually be the GUO's. How did you manage to get in with a higher / the Same initiative?
Right, except my opponent didn't think to give his greater daemons the baleswords. So in this case, it really didn't matter if my dimachaeron swung first or not, unless my opponent was able to get both GUO's into combat at the same time. But a WS8 dima with Prefered Enemy from the Malanthrope is a scary sight indeed. He'd cut down anything that isn't Eternal Warrior, Invisible or without re-rollable saves.
BTW, after the match, I told him when playing against units like these (lots of multi-wound units or MC's), he needs to exchange one of his Greater Gifts for the Balesword.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: Chaos is an army that a Dima might actually be good against to be fair. But for the most part, its just a model thats only broken if you make it broken.
To be fair, the Dima is actually good against most assault armies that a) doesn't shoot well, b) are not Invisible or c) does not consists of a mega-deathstar.
1) if you want Melee Carnifexes you should look at the Stone Crusher varient: It is considerable tougher than normal carnifexes and has some wargear options that make it intriguing.
2) Tyranid Prime can't join units of Carnifexes any more. It is a significant nerf. He doesn't work great unless you are running hoards. So I suggest one of two options.
A) Deathleaper - He is cheap, and give you opponent something to shoot at for a bit before dying. Alternatively he can deep strike without scatter.
B) Go full hog and run a dakka-Flyrant like the rest of us. It give you good anti-air, and some psychic support.
3) Malanthropes. The are the ideal support for Meleefexes. 1 Per 4-5 Carnifexes.
4) Gargoyles. They will keep your Carnifexes alive until they get there.
5) Carnifexes don't have to be fluffy/bad. They are our 3rd or 4th best unit. This Carnifex Spam list would do very well, against many, many things.
Spoiler:
Hive Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs)
Hive Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs)
Malanthrope
Malanthrope
20 Hormagants
20 Hormagants
20 Gargoyles
2 Carnifexes (2 TL-Devourers)
2 Carnifexes (2 TL-Devourers)
2 Carnifexes (2 TL-Devourers)
I've run this list a few times. It works very, very well, and tables quite a few opponents.
Thanks, tag, I appreciate the suggestions!
The stonecrushers are an excellent idea, and I do really like the idea of using deathleaper for the HQ.
Malanthropes seem ideal; the thought of 6-7 Zoeies moving them up and providing support also seems fun, if probably less effective.
The list looks very solid. Pulling from it, hormagants might be a good call too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
luke1705 wrote: A fex spam list I think is close to the heart of many Tyranid players. Tag's list is actually quite good. Especially when you roll up MOA and lay down 96 strength 6 twin-linked shots....on TURN ONE. Talk about an alpha strike. Goodness.
The only way I see melee fexes being useable would be with the apocalypse formation. And to be honest, I wonder how far off we are from seeing apoc formations in regular games. Seems like something that eighth edition may very well hold in store. We already have super heavies, lords of war and the like. I don't know that allowing apocalypse formations would be that much more game-breaking, as many of them are prohibitively expensive to field and have decently marginal benefits for the size of the formation. Much like a super heavy, you would be trading power in one area for specialty in another.
That being said, if that fex formation ever does see widespread use (or any use at all), I would need to buy some Carnifexes myself
Indeed, the Apoc formation is superb and would be great fun to run.
Verthane wrote: I have been very much enjoying reading this thread. This little community within a community is certainly one of the high points of Dakka right now!
The last time the 'Nids were my main army was in 1st edition, so I am long out of serious play experience with them.
Reading this thread and playing Luke1705 with his new Dimachaeron (sp?) has certainly brought back my interest - and I have been wanting to do a Carnifexen list for years.
I know this wouldn't be a tournament list, but I think it would be great fun to run 3x3 Screamer-Killers. I would of course need an HQ and 2 troops - thinking a tyranid prime and six deep striking ripper bases to keep the tax down.
Unless I am mistaken, that would put me at 1470, with 380 left in an 1850 list.
Any thoughts? Zoanthropes en masse? Some screening gaunts? Malanthrope? Dimachaeron?
I know of course that flyrants and dakkafexxes would give me a far more competitive army, but they don't interest me - they "feel wrong" to me, which probably doesn't make any sense to the gentle reader.
How horrendously do folks feel I would be nerfing myself with this setup? I don't mind a list where I will be 50-50 win rate, but auto lose isn't any fun.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
Take a look at the 3rd leviathan Dataslate. The Wrecker Node is 3 brood of meleefex and 1 brood of melee warriors. It is battleforged list all by itseld as it is an official formation, or take it with a normal CAD.
Special Rules: Fearless, Shadow in The Warp, Instinctive Behaviour ( Hunt), ML2 Psyker, Rampage.
Electroshock Bio-Plasma Scream:
Torrent 6" SD*, AP2 Torrent, Bio-Plasma Lance*
*Bio-Plasma Lance
Nidzilla may narrow it's scream into a death ray-like beam to Focus on a single enemy target.
Bio Plasma Lance
Range 24, SD*, AP1, Beam*
*St D - If the target is a Vehicle or a Building, On a roll of a 4,5 and 6 The target suffers a Devastating hit, otherwise suffers a normal result on the Destroyer Weapon Attack Table.
*Beam - Pick an enemy target within 24" and trace a 1mm line from that point up to the maximum range. each model under that
Gargantuous Claws.
SD, AP1, Sunder
Sunder - May re-roll on the Destroyer Weapon Attack Table against Buildings and Vehicles.
OrdoSean wrote: Hey I have a question for y'all. Has anyone been having success with lictors?
I ran the lictor formation: Death leaper and 5 solo lictors recently in a few test games and in a tournament(battle for salvation on the east coast) as come the apocalypse allies with my old dark eldar in their final run before the new codex. And I have to say they were a great success, and has me wondering if anyone has incorporated them into tyranid lists or other weird allied formats.
I love the models and so have been itching to maybe run a pure tyranid army along with the formation, as the new dark eldar codex isnt really inspiring me at the moment.
I admit that I don't have very much experience with the Lictor formation. I've only ever run it once in a casual game. However, I can definitely see it contributing to a Tyranid force. It's contributions are not as obvious as those from Living Artillery or Skyblight, but they can help you with the Movement phase and take away valuable resources from the opposing forces in order to deal with. They're especially good if you're playing against enemy deathstar builds, though not as great if playing against MSU builds.
I think I'm going to have to revisit this formation.
Verthane wrote: I have been wanting to do a Carnifexen list for years.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
Take a look at the 3rd leviathan Dataslate. The Wrecker Node is 3 brood of meleefex and 1 brood of melee warriors. It is battleforged list all by itseld as it is an official formation, or take it with a normal CAD.
Special Rules: Fearless, Shadow in The Warp, Instinctive Behaviour ( Hunt), ML2 Psyker, Rampage.
Electroshock Bio-Plasma Scream:
Torrent 6" SD*, AP2 Torrent, Bio-Plasma Lance*
*Bio-Plasma Lance
Nidzilla may narrow it's scream into a death ray-like beam to Focus on a single enemy target.
Bio Plasma Lance
Range 24, SD*, AP1, Beam*
*St D - If the target is a Vehicle or a Building, On a roll of a 4,5 and 6 The target suffers a Devastating hit, otherwise suffers a normal result on the Destroyer Weapon Attack Table.
*Beam - Pick an enemy target within 24" and trace a 1mm line from that point up to the maximum range. each model under that
Gargantuous Claws.
SD, AP1, Sunder
Sunder - May re-roll on the Destroyer Weapon Attack Table against Buildings and Vehicles.
Special Rules: Fearless, Shadow in The Warp, Instinctive Behaviour ( Hunt), ML2 Psyker, Rampage.
Electroshock Bio-Plasma Scream:
Torrent 6" SD*, AP2 Torrent, Bio-Plasma Lance*
*Bio-Plasma Lance
Nidzilla may narrow it's scream into a death ray-like beam to Focus on a single enemy target.
Bio Plasma Lance
Range 24, SD*, AP1, Beam*
*St D - If the target is a Vehicle or a Building, On a roll of a 4,5 and 6 The target suffers a Devastating hit, otherwise suffers a normal result on the Destroyer Weapon Attack Table.
*Beam - Pick an enemy target within 24" and trace a 1mm line from that point up to the maximum range. each model under that
Gargantuous Claws.
SD, AP1, Sunder
Sunder - May re-roll on the Destroyer Weapon Attack Table against Buildings and Vehicles.
This is insanely broken and has no place in standard 40k games.
SHUPPET wrote: Chaos is an army that a Dima might actually be good against to be fair. But for the most part, its just a model thats only broken if you make it broken.
To be fair, the Dima is actually good against most assault armies that a) doesn't shoot well, b) are not Invisible or c) does not consists of a mega-deathstar.
Yup, I definitely agree. Unfortunately, that's only like 1/3 of the armies out there at best, and then out of those armies, host them are the weaker armies in the game anyway. And even for the ones that aren't, Nids have the natural edge over practically any of them, we are the anti-assaulty army with our supreme close range dakka, and the fact that even once they make it to assault with us they still aren't necessarily in a great place because while not as much as other armies, we still have heaps of natural CC presence, still enough to wreck shooty armies in assault, and enough to hold our own with dedicated CC armies quite well and gainin the upper hand with all our shooty. Nids shooting us underrated, and point blank range we could beat Tau in roll off, it's the range of our guns that limits us, however against close range armies that's no longer an issue.
To clarify, I think the Dima is a terrible TAC model. However, against one of the armies with more challenging CC models (jy2 has actually already listed a couple of the big ones, TWC & GUO) a Dima or two is quite a good counter pick IMO to get the edge back, just play to make sure it gets it's charge off (assault the turn before with a Garg blob is my opinion). In my practice games with a proxies Dima I found against an opponent not making big play mistakes, it was a model highly dependant on the army they chose.
And none of it sees play. Also, in the dex I don't really think there is a better CC dedicated model than Dima, once you make the assumption that everything is going to make it to combat against another assault army.
That incident sounds soul crushing for the Chaos player. As a Slaaneshi daemons player though, I don't think I'd be too worried. I don't recall the stats of the Dima, but I'm pretty my seekers /w locus of re-rolling would eat it for breakfast.
BlaxicanX wrote: That incident sounds soul crushing for the Chaos player. As a Slaaneshi daemons player though, I don't think I'd be too worried. I don't recall the stats of the Dima, but I'm pretty my seekers /w locus of re-rolling would eat it for breakfast.
Yeah, they would, which is why you would screen him out with the unit of gargoyles first....after you've dakka'd them with your flyrants first, of course.
SHUPPET wrote: And none of it sees play. Also, in the dex I don't really think there is a better CC dedicated model than Dima, once you make the assumption that everything is going to make it to combat against another assault army.
sword/whip + RCTS flesh hook shrikes net a lot more attacks for the same points, but they're at S4 and not S8, will generally go first and give no feths about terrain. apples and oranges though. dima's nasty for sure if you make the assumption it gets into combat with what you want it to.
jy2 wrote: Yeah, they would, which is why you would screen him out with the unit of gargoyles first....after you've dakka'd them with your flyrants first, of course.
Oh, absolutely. Though, in that situation it's not really the Dima doing any of the work, eh?
SHUPPET wrote: And none of it sees play. Also, in the dex I don't really think there is a better CC dedicated model than Dima, once you make the assumption that everything is going to make it to combat against another assault army.
sword/whip + RCTS flesh hook shrikes net a lot more attacks for the same points, but they're at S4 and not S8, will generally go first and give no feths about terrain. apples and oranges though. dima's nasty for sure if you make the assumption it gets into combat with what you want it to.
Yes, that's what Shrikes do. Yet in the original context, Shrike is not one of the models that this statement applies to:
SHUPPET wrote: against one of the armies with more challenging CC models (jy2 has actually already listed a couple of the big ones, TWC & GUO) a Dima or two is quite a good counter pick IMO to get the edge back
gigasnail wrote: to be fair there is lots in our codex you can make the same argument for.
Shrikes will get absolutely shredded by TWC or GUO. Absolutely shredded.
jy2 wrote: Yeah, they would, which is why you would screen him out with the unit of gargoyles first....after you've dakka'd them with your flyrants first, of course.
Oh, absolutely. Though, in that situation it's not really the Dima doing any of the work, eh?
Gargoyles are to hold/pin down a unit for the dima to then come in and finish off. In this case, if he doesn't die by shooting, he will usually make it into close combat.
Flyrants will target whoever needs dying first, whether that be the seekers or Fateweaver or Belakor or another greater daemon/daemon prince with the Grimoire.
Regardless, when playing against Daemons, the dima will 95% of the time get into combat unless the rest of the Tyranid army is so efficient in killing the enemy that the battle is already over before he can do s (95% chance that this won't be happening ).
gigasnail wrote: you know i'm basically agreeing with you, right?
Ahh no the comment about being able to make the same argument for a lot of things made me think you were disagreeing with the statement about Dima being highly match dependant sorry. Definitely think it's the most match up dependant unit in the dex, against some armies it's highly inefficient points to durability ratio for an MC that will never threaten anything, in other match ups it's hands down the BEST unit in the dex. Noting else seems as hot n cold to me out of all our options. Maybe Shrikes, who can really get out of hand and effectively be 12" speed Terminators with similar damage output and no AP2 counter, IF your opponent skimped on the S8+ weaponry and their S4 is relevant (Some competitive Eldar builds tbh!). But for he most part, not much else. Especially against CC armies, while it makes all our units slightly better, none as much as the Dima. Sure, stealers Haruspex old one eye Swarmlord Pyrovore Tyranid Prime and Trygo be all appreciate being able to ensure their charge, but all of them remain overpriced and crappy even if they do, unlike the Dima. Interesting model it is.
Special Rules: Fearless, Shadow in The Warp, Instinctive Behaviour ( Hunt), ML2 Psyker, Rampage.
Electroshock Bio-Plasma Scream:
Torrent 6" SD*, AP2 Torrent, Bio-Plasma Lance*
*Bio-Plasma Lance
Nidzilla may narrow it's scream into a death ray-like beam to Focus on a single enemy target.
Bio Plasma Lance
Range 24, SD*, AP1, Beam*
*St D - If the target is a Vehicle or a Building, On a roll of a 4,5 and 6 The target suffers a Devastating hit, otherwise suffers a normal result on the Destroyer Weapon Attack Table.
*Beam - Pick an enemy target within 24" and trace a 1mm line from that point up to the maximum range. each model under that
Gargantuous Claws.
SD, AP1, Sunder
Sunder - May re-roll on the Destroyer Weapon Attack Table against Buildings and Vehicles.
This is insanely broken and has no place in standard 40k games.
...yet makes me weak at the knees
In my defence, I had drunk a fair amount of wine before writing those rules. Perhaps Strength D on the bio plasma is a little too much... But if the C'tan can have it why can't we :[[[[[[[[
Head on over and start drooling. It appears that instead of fixing lictors, GW has decided to release a better lictor. And instead of buffing Zoanthropes, they decided to give us a better Zoanthrope....and an actual reason for doing a Tyranid psychic dominance list. Daemon allies are looking better than ever, huh Hulksmash.
That being said, I'm in. Hoping they clock in in the 140-170 point range
luke1705 wrote: Head on over and start drooling. It appears that instead of fixing lictors, GW has decided to release a better lictor. And instead of buffing Zoanthropes, they decided to give us a better Zoanthrope....and an actual reason for doing a Tyranid psychic dominance list. Daemon allies are looking better than ever, huh Hulksmash.
That being said, I'm in. Hoping they clock in in the 140-170 point range
Wow, that looks like usable models. If they get out in time for x-mass, I just might get one... It looks like they want to send Nids into a Toxic/Psyho direction, can't say I am opposed. (Take a look at my "Psycho" lists )
luke1705 wrote: Head on over and start drooling. It appears that instead of fixing lictors, GW has decided to release a better lictor. And instead of buffing Zoanthropes, they decided to give us a better Zoanthrope....and an actual reason for doing a Tyranid psychic dominance list. Daemon allies are looking better than ever, huh Hulksmash.
That being said, I'm in. Hoping they clock in in the 140-170 point range
Wow, that looks like usable models. If they get out in time for x-mass, I just might get one... It looks like they want to send Nids into a Toxic/Psyho direction, can't say I am opposed. (Take a look at my "Psycho" lists )
Part of that rumor is pre-order next week... I'd be pleasantly surprised if so. I wonder if the rules will be in box or WD only? I hope WD so I don't have to buy one of these now... I'd much rather wait until Christmas when I have a little more cash. Also, I'm super excited to see what Tyranid dice look like. Honestly, I'll probably buy it. I also feel like the second one (Maleceptor) is missing something. For a 4+ save MC, I think it needs a little "more" extra besides an extra psychic power. A good one to be fair, but nothing mind blowing.
An earlier rumor from the same source said that the rules would be in the box itself, which is a nice direction. As far as the save, it all comes down to the points. If the dude is T5 and 4W for less than 100 points, who cares? Plus he'll likely be taking 3+ cover most of the time anyhow
luke1705 wrote: Head on over and start drooling. It appears that instead of fixing lictors, GW has decided to release a better lictor. And instead of buffing Zoanthropes, they decided to give us a better Zoanthrope....and an actual reason for doing a Tyranid psychic dominance list. Daemon allies are looking better than ever, huh Hulksmash.
That being said, I'm in. Hoping they clock in in the 140-170 point range
Maleceptor
A 4 legged beast with two large scything talons
A psyker level 2, synapse monstrous creature that has an invul save of 5+. It has shadows of the warp and a 4+ save.
It has the psychic power psychic overload, which is a 24" focused witchfire. target must take a leadership test on 3d6 and vehicles count as leadership 10, failure causes d3 wounds no armor or cover saves allowed, and a causes a single glancing hit to vehicles, no cover save allowed. The maleceptor can do psychic overload three times a round, but cannot target the same model twice.
It can choose its remaining powers from the powers of the hive mind.
A four legged beast... beast...
beast.......
is that poor wording or is it a beast....
If its a beast with a god awful stat line I will cry and write an angry letter.
gigasnail wrote: as always hopeful for non-garbage, but with GW's track record, we'll see. beast-type MC is ace.
I feel like the Toxicrene is the better candidate for speed. I would actually use that! But ultimately there's not much to say until pre-orders hit on Saturday, and hopefully there's some rules leaks.
Well. Looks like GW has ALREADY activated MAXIMUM GOUGING on the new stuff. I won't be getting them unless they are blatantly, ridiculously overpowered.
Actually they're cheaper (allegedly) than the Harpy/Hive Crone kit, so it's not as bad as it could be. Wouldn't mind if it was cheaper, but if that super lictor can move 12" who cares?
But yeah you definitely don't want to have a psker who can gun stuff down stuck in combat, so 12" speed would almost be a mockery if he got it and the other guy didn't
luke1705 wrote: Actually they're cheaper (allegedly) than the Harpy/Hive Crone kit, so it's not as bad as it could be. Wouldn't mind if it was cheaper, but if that super lictor can move 12" who cares?
But yeah you definitely don't want to have a psker who can gun stuff down stuck in combat, so 12" speed would almost be a mockery if he got it and the other guy didn't
Just as an FYI both the 12 inch move and pts are Forum wish listing ,not rumours.
luke1705 wrote: Actually they're cheaper (allegedly) than the Harpy/Hive Crone kit, so it's not as bad as it could be. Wouldn't mind if it was cheaper, but if that super lictor can move 12" who cares?
But yeah you definitely don't want to have a psker who can gun stuff down stuck in combat, so 12" speed would almost be a mockery if he got it and the other guy didn't
If the Tyranid Fast Attack MC only moves 6", I sincerely doubt you're going to have any other Tyranid MC move more than 6" unless they're flyers.
luke1705 wrote: Actually they're cheaper (allegedly) than the Harpy/Hive Crone kit, so it's not as bad as it could be. Wouldn't mind if it was cheaper, but if that super lictor can move 12" who cares?
But yeah you definitely don't want to have a psker who can gun stuff down stuck in combat, so 12" speed would almost be a mockery if he got it and the other guy didn't
If the Tyranid Fast Attack MC only moves 6", I sincerely doubt you're going to have any other Tyranid MC move more than 6" unless they're flyers.
The feeling that the Dimachaeron was the chosen one and that it has failed is ever growing.
luke1705 wrote: Actually they're cheaper (allegedly) than the Harpy/Hive Crone kit, so it's not as bad as it could be. Wouldn't mind if it was cheaper, but if that super lictor can move 12" who cares?
But yeah you definitely don't want to have a psker who can gun stuff down stuck in combat, so 12" speed would almost be a mockery if he got it and the other guy didn't
If the Tyranid Fast Attack MC only moves 6", I sincerely doubt you're going to have any other Tyranid MC move more than 6" unless they're flyers.
I completely agree that it's incredibly unlikely, especially from a heavy support option (if that is the case). That being said, who knows? Maybe GW has learned from their mistakes. Unlikely, but possible. If it has infiltrate, I'm not going to be too sad. Or if it's simply set at an appropriate cost, that'd be cool too. If we're talking 140 point territory like the mawloc, I don't think anyone will mind too much
luke1705 wrote: Actually they're cheaper (allegedly) than the Harpy/Hive Crone kit, so it's not as bad as it could be. Wouldn't mind if it was cheaper, but if that super lictor can move 12" who cares?
But yeah you definitely don't want to have a psker who can gun stuff down stuck in combat, so 12" speed would almost be a mockery if he got it and the other guy didn't
If the Tyranid Fast Attack MC only moves 6", I sincerely doubt you're going to have any other Tyranid MC move more than 6" unless they're flyers.
I completely agree that it's incredibly unlikely, especially from a heavy support option (if that is the case). That being said, who knows? Maybe GW has learned from their mistakes. Unlikely, but possible. If it has infiltrate, I'm not going to be too sad. Or if it's simply set at an appropriate cost, that'd be cool too. If we're talking 140 point territory like the mawloc, I don't think anyone will mind too much
140 pts? Base Carnifex is 120 points, and only useful for Devourers. Even at 100 points, the unreliability of a walking MC just makes Carnifex not worth the points, and a Carnifex pays more per wound than a Mawloc. This Toxicrene looks like it will hit less hard than a Carnifex, covering anti-infantry a much less important role for us, and even if it gets Lictoresque weapon skill, at 100 points will still just be Dima tier.
SHUPPET wrote: Actually, the #1 reason that neither of you mentioned, is that you practically fold to any list with a couple of transports and a walker. AT is the weakest aspect of the Tyranid codex. It's almost critical you take what you can get, be it eGrubs, Carnifexes, even Harpies for some, Termagants are hard to justify in a sensible list, and even less so when you are forced to make them less points effecient by giving them AG just so they can hopefully glance AV10 rear armour to death in 2 turns, assuming enough make it to combat with something that moves at double it's speed, without taking too much losses.
Horde armies seem really hard to make playable.
I do play horde nids in tournies, as my only fully painted army dates back to 3rd, and yeah high mech lists are hard. I find an exocrine, Screamer-killer and basic dakkafex have to be there to make dents in the armor. 6th made them work because troops had to disembark to claim objectives. 7th with OS Landraiders, Rhinos, and pods is making the game much harder on the gribby horde again.
This is part of what has my nid army on the shelf :-/ (the other part being, I'm just not sure about the 7th ed ruleset). But not using the 150 models I just painted earlier this year is a little discouraging as far as putting more work into the army...
I'd take a lictor that can't get instant-deathed by strength 10, has shrouded rather than stealth, and clocks in at 20 points per T6 wound in a heartbeat. It's like deathleaper, except with a better shooting attack and better CC ability. Maybe I just like lictors though. That being said, like all of our walking MC, a secondary deployment option would make it much nicer. Here's to hoping for an actual leaked picture sooner rather than later!
As the guy who runs a 15 lictor list, infiltrate/DS are ridiculously important, this Toxicrene cant get by with neither
also, 20 pts per T6 wound would be 100 pts not 140, and those T6 wounds come with very little compared to Mawlocs 23 pts for each T6 wound that come with an AP2 blast (still a bigger role than toxicrenes blast) and the Deepstrike mobility necessary.
Definitely interested to see the full rules on both of these. First glance gets me excited for some synergy with current lists. All of this is point dependent though. If they are even mid range expensive like anything over 150 they will not be competitive unless some key rules are being left out in this leak. If they run cheap they will be awesome and will absolutely make it into competitive lists.
I gotta say btw I see a lot of hate on the Dima.. it is in fact sad it is not fearless and on a far more important level it lacks speed BUT I have been running one in all of my lists since it came out and have yet to regret that. When you play a violent tau gunline yes it has a lot less of a place but as a body guard for my barbed heirodule and in general a gigantic wraith knight deterrent it has done absolute work! Hell even against JY2's Necrons where you'd think it is pointless I have a lot to thank for his skills
It's the speed and not the fearless that really cripples it iNcontrol. You can play around the lack of fearless, can't play around the lack of being able to have any choice in target. As a bodyguard (I assume you mean to attract fire) it trades wounds far poorer than every other decent MC in the dex.
I'm looking forward to seeing the rules, that Toxicrene definitely needs decent mobility or its basically a Trygon without DS... The Maleceptor looks really cool. Either way, more options is never worse than less options, lets hope the rumours are on point
Toxicrene at 150 , useless. 200 points for that Maleceptor, useless. Half them both and one of them might see play. Not sure of the statline on the maleceptor yet tho, but over 200 points is Flyrant territory, and would need to be a damn good unit, that thing has very little aggression for that price
Just more of the typical Tyranid treatment
I urge people above all not to support this terrible crap by going out and buying one for your collection, it just greenlights this kinda weak ass gak from GW's perspective
Stealth Team (147)
•Marker Drone
•Shas'vre
•Markerlight
•Velocity Tracker
Fast Attack:
Piranha (50)
•PDTR
Piranha (50
•PDTR
Piranha (40)
He went first. On turn 1, Hormagaunts charged FW team, Flyrant charged Riptide, and Carnifex tried to charge a Piranha but was stopped by a wall. I just quit turn 2, because there was no point in even playing. Good news, I found a new ultracompetitive list for nids. (The one he used)
Stealth Team (147)
•Marker Drone
•Shas'vre
•Markerlight
•Velocity Tracker
Fast Attack:
Piranha (50)
•PDTR
Piranha (50
•PDTR
Piranha (40)
He went first. On turn 1, Hormagaunts charged FW team, Flyrant charged Riptide, and Carnifex tried to charge a Piranha but was stopped by a wall. I just quit turn 2, because there was no point in even playing. Good news, I found a new ultracompetitive list for nids. (The one he used)
Stealth Team (147)
•Marker Drone
•Shas'vre
•Markerlight
•Velocity Tracker
Fast Attack:
Piranha (50)
•PDTR
Piranha (50
•PDTR
Piranha (40)
He went first. On turn 1, Hormagaunts charged FW team, Flyrant charged Riptide, and Carnifex tried to charge a Piranha but was stopped by a wall. I just quit turn 2, because there was no point in even playing. Good news, I found a new ultracompetitive list for nids. (The one he used)
How were both armies deployed?
When choosing board edges, I rolled a one. Long edges.
That's far too close. Hormagaunts only need to move up 6, then get a re-rollable charge. Flyrant can move 12, then charge. Carnifexes move up 6 then charge.
That deployment, on that table, with CC Nids going first was designed to slaughter Tau.
He went first. On turn 1, Hormagaunts charged FW team, Flyrant charged Riptide, and Carnifex tried to charge a Piranha but was stopped by a wall. I just quit turn 2, because there was no point in even playing. Good news, I found a new ultracompetitive list for nids. (The one he used)
So you guys did role-reversal? You played his Tau and he your Tyranids?
A 1st turn charge should be almost impossible for Tyranids on a standard table. That is because you guys start off 24" away from each other. But playing on your modified 3'x5' table, you guys need to adjust for that. If you guys play 12" for each deployment zone, then it is only 12" from the other army. Then the assault would be possible (though not quite so fair). However, to simulate the actual game, you guys should have played with a 6" deployment zones so that you guys will still be 24" away from each other.
BTW, that Tyranid list is terrible. NEVER run close-combat flyrants. Proxy if you have to but run them with 2 brainleech devourers each. You'll find that it makes a world of difference between the 2 builds. Also, don't bother with Regeneration on anything with less than 6W (and then I still wouldn't bother with it). Instead, give your flyrants electroshock grubs instead. Finally, your list is Unbound with 3 HQ's and 1 Troop. It is better to run Bound lists and you can do that easily by swapping out the 20 hormagants for 30 termagants. That would then change your tervigon from HQ to a troop choice, thus satisfying the requirement for a Bound detachment. But that is easily understandable if you don't have the models for the army and do not want to proxy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iNcontroL wrote: Definitely interested to see the full rules on both of these. First glance gets me excited for some synergy with current lists. All of this is point dependent though. If they are even mid range expensive like anything over 150 they will not be competitive unless some key rules are being left out in this leak. If they run cheap they will be awesome and will absolutely make it into competitive lists.
I gotta say btw I see a lot of hate on the Dima.. it is in fact sad it is not fearless and on a far more important level it lacks speed BUT I have been running one in all of my lists since it came out and have yet to regret that. When you play a violent tau gunline yes it has a lot less of a place but as a body guard for my barbed heirodule and in general a gigantic wraith knight deterrent it has done absolute work! Hell even against JY2's Necrons where you'd think it is pointless I have a lot to thank for his skills
Welcome to the Tyranid Tactica thread, Geoff.
I still have nightmares about your Barbie stepping on my 2 bargelords and killing both of them....and neither getting back up even on 4+'s.
Jy2 is right, CC Flyrants are just wasted potential for 2 amazingly mobile dakka guns and they already come stock standard with S6 Ap2 brilliant WS and a decent number of attacks, they needn't throw away their best role for more focus on CC. Regen however I think it was Tag and someone else that did the numbers and made a pretty good case for Flyrant being the very best Regeneration recipient, and I think TFex is a close second... But that being said absolutely nobody thinks it's a good idea in either in games above 1000 pts in size. But jy2s suggestions are definitely a good step in the right direction if that's your Nids list
Automatically Appended Next Post: I didn't see the supposed points costs the original time. Although I remain skeptical ( if he knows how many points they cost why is an ambiguous number) but if those prices are anything close to true, both are ridiculously bad. Like, contending with Trygon Prime level of bad. Trying halving those points and trying again, even then I personally wouldn't touch either as they are gimmicky and unreliable as gak. At a spam able price maybe I'd consider the Maleceptor. Not at that laughably bad price though
You got played again by your opponent (I assume this is the same Tau guy you played against before). He can't charge you on the first turn if he's going first. You should have had one full turn of shooting to kill those gaunts.
If this is the same guy, you need to find somebody else to play against. This is the second time he has cheated against you. If it is somebody new, then you need to ask for a rematch on account of the fact that you guys played it wrong.
You got played again by your opponent (I assume this is the same Tau guy you played against before). He can't charge you on the first turn if he's going first. You should have had one full turn of shooting to kill those gaunts.
If this is the same guy, you need to find somebody else to play against. This is the second time he has cheated against you. If it is somebody new, then you need to ask for a rematch on account of the fact that you guys played it wrong.
I had high hopes for you!! Tough matchup first opponent too.....It's too bad you landed your Flyrants. I feel like had you not done that you would have had more of a chance.
On a side note, I decided on the list I am going to be bringing for my next 1850 (FW allowed, limited LOW, allies allowed although 2 sources max, and Tyranids can self ally, will be using LVOFAQ and similar LVO mission packet):
CAD DakkaFlyrant - E.grubs
DakkaFlyrant - E.grubs
Malenthrope
3 Deep striking Rippers
3 Deep striking Rippers
3 Deep striking Rippers
3 Deep striking Rippers
15 Gargoyles
Mawloc
Mawloc
Tyrannofex - Adrenal Glands, E.grubs
Allies DakkaFlyrant - E.grubs
Venomthrope
3 Deep striking Rippers
Tyrannofex - Adrenal Glands, E.grubs
Total = 1845
Played a two games using two of the missions in the packet. Lost 6-7 against Fire Cadre Tau with FWHQ, 2 sniper teams, Riptide, and 2 solo fusion suits. Mission was eliminate 3 targets (worth 4 points as primary), modified maelstrom (worth 3 points as secondary), and each tertiary worth 1 point with a modified First blood so each player can achieve it. There were a couple misplays on my part, and a couple misplays by my opponent. Otherwise great guy and cool fluffy list. However, does anyone know how killing an Ethereal counts towards the final point count at the end of a game that doesn't use VP scoring?
Second game was against SM/GK using the Sicarian tank. His list included a Chaplain, Libby, a unit of 6 Terminators, 2 Tac squads with Lascannons, 2 Tac squads in Rhinos with melta, 2 Legion of the Damned with combi-melta, multimelta, and meltagun, the Stormclaw gunship?, and a unit of GK Terminators. I won this game 7-6. It was a mission that involved table quarters + middle circle (4 points as primary), modified maelstrom (worth 3 points as secondary), and each tertiary worth 1 point with a modified First blood so each player can achieve it. Again, my opponent was good guy. We both had our share of luck, including one of my Mawlocs wiping half his HQ terminator unit out turn 2 and denying his Gate of infinity turn 1. He had his Sicarian tank immobilize itself turn 2. Actually, now that I've written the bit about luck, luck was definitely in my favor through that game. Either way, great opponent, awesome list.
Couple thoughts:
Gargoyles, didn't do much. Actually, they didn't do anything except force my opponents to shoot at them, in order to remove the mobile cover unit for my larger units. They almost got to tie up a Riptide game 1.
Double T-fex. Wow. SUPER durable. Given, both my opponents were expecting armor heavy opponents, so the matchups slightly favored me because the lack of AP2 weaponry really hurt them.
Mawlocs are awesome. Enough said.
I could probably find something better to put points into instead of the Gargoyles, but the buffer between drop marines is nice to have...
You got played again by your opponent (I assume this is the same Tau guy you played against before). He can't charge you on the first turn if he's going first. You should have had one full turn of shooting to kill those gaunts.
If this is the same guy, you need to find somebody else to play against. This is the second time he has cheated against you. If it is somebody new, then you need to ask for a rematch on account of the fact that you guys played it wrong.
There's no rule stating you can't charge on the first turn. The board is just very short and it seems like they deployed 12 inches in, so there was only 12 inches between them.
Normally, you deploy 12 inches away from the centre so that there is effectively 24 inches between the armies so that you can't charge on the first turn, or at least it's very unlikely.
Even if you infiltrate or scout, in those rules they specifically state you can't charge on the first turn.
I hate the new model, looks like a blind lictor :/
You got played again by your opponent (I assume this is the same Tau guy you played against before). He can't charge you on the first turn if he's going first. You should have had one full turn of shooting to kill those gaunts.
If this is the same guy, you need to find somebody else to play against. This is the second time he has cheated against you. If it is somebody new, then you need to ask for a rematch on account of the fact that you guys played it wrong.
There's no rule stating you can't charge on the first turn. The board is just very short and it seems like they deployed 12 inches in, so there was only 12 inches between them.
Normally, you deploy 12 inches away from the centre so that there is effectively 24 inches between the armies so that you can't charge on the first turn, or at least it's very unlikely.
Even if you infiltrate or scout, in those rules they specifically state you can't charge on the first turn.
I hate the new model, looks like a blind lictor :/
Hmmm, you may be right. Looking at the digital edition of the rulebook, I can't seem to find anything specifically forbidding it. Had it in my head that it was impossible, but I guess not if you are playing on a too-small board.
You got played again by your opponent (I assume this is the same Tau guy you played against before). He can't charge you on the first turn if he's going first. You should have had one full turn of shooting to kill those gaunts.
If this is the same guy, you need to find somebody else to play against. This is the second time he has cheated against you. If it is somebody new, then you need to ask for a rematch on account of the fact that you guys played it wrong.
There's no rule stating you can't charge on the first turn. The board is just very short and it seems like they deployed 12 inches in, so there was only 12 inches between them.
Normally, you deploy 12 inches away from the centre so that there is effectively 24 inches between the armies so that you can't charge on the first turn, or at least it's very unlikely.
Even if you infiltrate or scout, in those rules they specifically state you can't charge on the first turn.
I hate the new model, looks like a blind lictor :/
Drop one set of rippers + venomthrope you either straight up ONLY need 1 malanthrope or you could afford 2 there (I recommend only having 1).
Everyone is so big on mobile screening via gargoyles.. I guess it comes down to the meta you play in. If your tables are bare and have very little cover sure but otherwise MOST of the tourneys I've played in (really all of them) have not had this issue in the last 2 years. Gargoyles are you paying for a band aid. Getting 3+ cover vs no cover is of course nice but I'd rather rely on tactics in game than paying a tax on something like that. If gargoyles had any punch or synergy or were really cheap I'd be in love with them like I was in 5th but man, they just suck now.
Mawlocs, Flyrants, Malanthrope are all nice. mawloc is a hidden gem. Your army lacks anything scary in CC.. I'd recommend sticking a dima in there with your list. He is a single model that changes a list from exposed to scary. Yeah he isn't fast but with most Nid lists these days that isn't AS BAD as it seems.. you are a ball moving up with the malanthrope vs a bum rushing abandon cover list.
You got played again by your opponent (I assume this is the same Tau guy you played against before). He can't charge you on the first turn if he's going first. You should have had one full turn of shooting to kill those gaunts.
If this is the same guy, you need to find somebody else to play against. This is the second time he has cheated against you. If it is somebody new, then you need to ask for a rematch on account of the fact that you guys played it wrong.
There's no rule stating you can't charge on the first turn. The board is just very short and it seems like they deployed 12 inches in, so there was only 12 inches between them.
Normally, you deploy 12 inches away from the centre so that there is effectively 24 inches between the armies so that you can't charge on the first turn, or at least it's very unlikely.
Even if you infiltrate or scout, in those rules they specifically state you can't charge on the first turn.
I hate the new model, looks like a blind lictor :/
Drop one set of rippers + venomthrope you either straight up ONLY need 1 malanthrope or you could afford 2 there (I recommend only having 1).
Everyone is so big on mobile screening via gargoyles.. I guess it comes down to the meta you play in. If your tables are bare and have very little cover sure but otherwise MOST of the tourneys I've played in (really all of them) have not had this issue in the last 2 years. Gargoyles are you paying for a band aid. Getting 3+ cover vs no cover is of course nice but I'd rather rely on tactics in game than paying a tax on something like that. If gargoyles had any punch or synergy or were really cheap I'd be in love with them like I was in 5th but man, they just suck now.
Mawlocs, Flyrants, Malanthrope are all nice. mawloc is a hidden gem. Your army lacks anything scary in CC.. I'd recommend sticking a dima in there with your list. He is a single model that changes a list from exposed to scary. Yeah he isn't fast but with most Nid lists these days that isn't AS BAD as it seems.. you are a ball moving up with the malanthrope vs a bum rushing abandon cover list.
you can only not charge if you use infiltrate. Scout won't allow you to charge on game turn 1 as well iirc. Otherwise the rule that "you can never charge on turn 1" has been left out in 7th afaik.
Stealth Team (147)
•Marker Drone
•Shas'vre
•Markerlight
•Velocity Tracker
Fast Attack:
Piranha (50)
•PDTR
Piranha (50
•PDTR
Piranha (40)
He went first. On turn 1, Hormagaunts charged FW team, Flyrant charged Riptide, and Carnifex tried to charge a Piranha but was stopped by a wall. I just quit turn 2, because there was no point in even playing. Good news, I found a new ultracompetitive list for nids. (The one he used)
How were both armies deployed?
When choosing board edges, I rolled a one. Long edges.
Just a quick look at the Tau list says you go cheated again or the opponent is still not reading the codex. Drone controller on the Riptide? Either misplayed or miss reading drone rules. Did he play the markerlights correclty?
SHUPPET wrote: I didn't see the supposed points costs the original time. Although I remain skeptical ( if he knows how many points they cost why is an ambiguous number) but if those prices are anything close to true, both are ridiculously bad. Like, contending with Trygon Prime level of bad. Trying halving those points and trying again, even then I personally wouldn't touch either as they are gimmicky and unreliable as gak. At a spam able price maybe I'd consider the Maleceptor. Not at that laughably bad price though
Toxicrine looks like it might be ok in terms of price (rumored 150 doesn't sound bad given its equipment, a Carnifex with a similar load-out is more expensive and less durable) and I wouldn't be surprised if it has a copy-paste of the Spore Cloud rule given what they did with the Ork's KFF (can be gotten in either HQ or on an expensive Heavy Support) and the rumor saying it is both shrouded and surrounded by a toxic fog. I initially thought the Maleceptor looked too expensive on first glance, but it then occurred to me it is basically the equivalent of Ahriman or Eldrad with a slightly modified Psychic Shriek. Both characters are well over 200 points and limited to 1-per army, so a generic unit with a similar ability being around 200 points seems fair enough.
In either event, if the rumors are true both creatures look like they were tailor made for countering Grav-spam (Bikes or Centurions). The Toxicrine has its 2+ poison pieplate with instant death potential and built-in shrouded to protect against return fire while the Maleceptor can bypass any tanking characters in front to get at the guns thanks to its power being a focused witchfire and its 4+/4++ offers a bit better innate resilience against grav than a 3+ armor alone (only wounds half the time and half the wounds are saved).
Gargoyles, didn't do much. Actually, they didn't do anything except force my opponents to shoot at them, in order to remove the mobile cover unit for my larger units. They almost got to tie up a Riptide game 1.
[...]
I could probably find something better to put points into instead of the Gargoyles, but the buffer between drop marines is nice to have...
What do you guys thinks?
I think part of the problem you had with the Gargoyles is that you only have one unit of them and no other units to provide saturation (everything else is multi-wound/low body count). If you have the models, you might want to swap a pair of Ripper broods for another brood of Gargoyles and see if that doesn't work out a bit better (they can sill be used to deepstrike if necessary). I myself tend to run at two broods at 1500 in conjunction with 40 odd Hormagaunts for added saturation. Might seem like a lot, but I've found they are handy as enablers for monstrous creatures. If they aren't screening then they are acting as assault grenades by locking things up for a turn while the monsters close in for the final blow.
Stealth Team (147)
•Marker Drone
•Shas'vre
•Markerlight
•Velocity Tracker
Fast Attack:
Piranha (50)
•PDTR
Piranha (50
•PDTR
Piranha (40)
He went first. On turn 1, Hormagaunts charged FW team, Flyrant charged Riptide, and Carnifex tried to charge a Piranha but was stopped by a wall. I just quit turn 2, because there was no point in even playing. Good news, I found a new ultracompetitive list for nids. (The one he used)
How were both armies deployed?
When choosing board edges, I rolled a one. Long edges.
Just a quick look at the Tau list says you go cheated again or the opponent is still not reading the codex. Drone controller on the Riptide? Either misplayed or miss reading drone rules. Did he play the markerlights correclty?
I never used thr markerlights. I had to keep moving or get multi-charged by the Gaunts. I thought it was legal to put the DC on the Riptide.
It was a switch game. I was playing Tau and my usual Tau playing opponent was playing Nids.
Just a quick look at the Tau list says you go cheated again or the opponent is still not reading the codex. Drone controller on the Riptide? Either misplayed or miss reading drone rules. Did he play the markerlights correclty?
SBG wrote: I honestly think he's trolling at this point.
Lighten up on the kid please. It's obvious he is new, both to Tyranid tactics and the rules to the game (let alone other people's armies).
It's better to help him out with correct information and tactical advice rather than accusations of cheating and trolling. We need to encourage new players to the hobby, not vice versa.
I and others have been giving him advice for days on his other thread, but to no effect whatsoever.
To the point where it is coming across as a purposeful attempt at 'doing it wrong'. Happy if I'm wrong, but look at the long thread he's got going about 'OP Hammerheads' that kill multipleflyrants per turn and you'll see what I mean. I've offered advice aplenty, but we're all entitled to our opinions. Cheers.
SBG wrote: I and others have been giving him advice for days on his other thread, but to no effect whatsoever.
To the point where it is coming across as a purposeful attempt at 'doing it wrong'. Happy if I'm wrong, but look at the long thread he's got going about 'OP Hammerheads' that kill multipleflyrants per turn and you'll see what I mean. I've offered advice aplenty, but we're all entitled to our opinions. Cheers.
Really? You think I'm TRYING to do it wrong? I've been trying to beat that bastard for a few months. I play the most competitive list I can vs. his unoptimized mess, and lose every single damn time thanks to always being disadvantaged purposefully by him. He won't play me if I have enough terrain on the board, he won't play me if there is a possibility he won't win because the objectives can't be camped. He BUYS HIS UNITS AND BUILDS THEM to be as effective as possible against nids, and abuses the hell out of the BS rules governing Tau and FMCs. I can guarantee I always go last due to my crappy rolling, and thanks to the absolute gak rules that say FMCs start in Gliding mode and can't switch into Swooping mode until your turn, my dual dakkarants always eat Railgun and Pulse Rifle shots first turn. While I roll 1s for my run moves, he's wiping entire squads of Gaunts with Submunition rounds that ignore cover, and dropping dual flamer deathstars into my Venomthropes and Zoanthropes. Do you know how fething infuriating that is? AND YOU ACCUSE ME OF TROLLING ABOUT IT? I've wasted hundreds of dollars on my bugs, and I can't win a single damn game with them.
Verviedi wrote: Really? You think I'm TRYING to do it wrong? I've been trying to beat that bastard for a few months. I play the most competitive list I can vs. his unoptimized mess, and lose every single damn time thanks to always being disadvantaged purposefully by him. He won't play me if I have enough terrain on the board, he won't play me if there is a possibility he won't win because the objectives can't be camped. He BUYS HIS UNITS AND BUILDS THEM to be as effective as possible against nids, and abuses the hell out of the BS rules governing Tau and FMCs. I can guarantee I always go last due to my crappy rolling, and thanks to the absolute gak rules that say FMCs start in Gliding mode and can't switch into Swooping mode until your turn, my dual dakkarants always eat Railgun and Pulse Rifle shots first turn. While I roll 1s for my run moves, he's wiping entire squads of Gaunts with Submunition rounds that ignore cover, and dropping dual flamer deathstars into my Venomthropes and Zoanthropes. Do you know how fething infuriating that is? AND YOU ACCUSE ME OF TROLLING ABOUT IT? I've wasted hundreds of dollars on my bugs, and I can't win a single damn game with them.
"Always being disadvantaged purposefully by him"
"He won't play me if I have enough terrain on the board"
"He won't play me if there is a possibility he will lose"
"Buys his units and builds them to be as effective as possible against Nids"
As I and others have mentioned in the your thread, this is a problem with your opponent, not you. We have all given you advice on how to deal with him.
At some point we have faced off against Tau. I have a 4-1 record against my friends Tau and shall be playing him tomorrow since I am back in my hometown. jy2 has a batrep against Farsight Bomb. Tau are beatable - your opponent is just making it so you can't win.
In regards to your dice-rolling...we all have them
SBG wrote: I and others have been giving him advice for days on his other thread, but to no effect whatsoever.
To the point where it is coming across as a purposeful attempt at 'doing it wrong'. Happy if I'm wrong, but look at the long thread he's got going about 'OP Hammerheads' that kill multipleflyrants per turn and you'll see what I mean. I've offered advice aplenty, but we're all entitled to our opinions. Cheers.
Really? You think I'm TRYING to do it wrong? I've been trying to beat that bastard for a few months. I play the most competitive list I can vs. his unoptimized mess, and lose every single damn time thanks to always being disadvantaged purposefully by him. He won't play me if I have enough terrain on the board, he won't play me if there is a possibility he won't win because the objectives can't be camped. He BUYS HIS UNITS AND BUILDS THEM to be as effective as possible against nids, and abuses the hell out of the BS rules governing Tau and FMCs. I can guarantee I always go last due to my crappy rolling, and thanks to the absolute gak rules that say FMCs start in Gliding mode and can't switch into Swooping mode until your turn, my dual dakkarants always eat Railgun and Pulse Rifle shots first turn. While I roll 1s for my run moves, he's wiping entire squads of Gaunts with Submunition rounds that ignore cover, and dropping dual flamer deathstars into my Venomthropes and Zoanthropes. Do you know how fething infuriating that is? AND YOU ACCUSE ME OF TROLLING ABOUT IT? I've wasted hundreds of dollars on my bugs, and I can't win a single damn game with them.
Maybe stop posting for a while...sit the next couple of plays out.
You guys arent playing the game as its meant to be played. I'd find another activity to enjoy together thats more relaxing. Its plastic soldiers and army men.
SBG wrote: I and others have been giving him advice for days on his other thread, but to no effect whatsoever.
To the point where it is coming across as a purposeful attempt at 'doing it wrong'. Happy if I'm wrong, but look at the long thread he's got going about 'OP Hammerheads' that kill multipleflyrants per turn and you'll see what I mean. I've offered advice aplenty, but we're all entitled to our opinions. Cheers.
Really? You think I'm TRYING to do it wrong? I've been trying to beat that bastard for a few months. I play the most competitive list I can vs. his unoptimized mess, and lose every single damn time thanks to always being disadvantaged purposefully by him. He won't play me if I have enough terrain on the board, he won't play me if there is a possibility he won't win because the objectives can't be camped. He BUYS HIS UNITS AND BUILDS THEM to be as effective as possible against nids, and abuses the hell out of the BS rules governing Tau and FMCs. I can guarantee I always go last due to my crappy rolling, and thanks to the absolute gak rules that say FMCs start in Gliding mode and can't switch into Swooping mode until your turn, my dual dakkarants always eat Railgun and Pulse Rifle shots first turn. While I roll 1s for my run moves, he's wiping entire squads of Gaunts with Submunition rounds that ignore cover, and dropping dual flamer deathstars into my Venomthropes and Zoanthropes. Do you know how infuriating that is? AND YOU ACCUSE ME OF TROLLING ABOUT IT? I've wasted hundreds of dollars on my bugs, and I can't win a single game with them.
Alright. I've got a coffee now.
Sorry if I've offended you and that I've described your behaviour in that way. I should rephrase. The losses come across as somewhat self-inflicted due to your repeated games with a known cheater/rules manipulator.
You state that there are many rules that are ...tilted... to his benefit, and then continue to play against this opponent. That, to me, confers a certain cooperation with the opponent's 'rules bending' and the resultant frustration that you experience.
I've chosen this shorter 'trolling' descriptor as it was fewer words and easier to throw into the thread than a long-winded explanation of the sociological aspects to this situation. However, as in the other thread, my advice remains the same - don't play against people who "won't play if there's enough terrain on the board" or who MUST favour the game so heavily in their own direction that it's unwinnable by their opponent.
I can understand a need to get games in. I know. I haven't been able to play for about 6 months due to family stuff. But there's other things you can do while you wait for opponents that won't frustrate you to no end. In fact, you said before that you have other opponents from time to time, why not play them?
I won't play against people like the one you describe. It's not a game, it's a shooting gallery where you're the target. Your 'army switch' game favoured the Tyranids by simple deployment - don't you think that there's a connection between the fact that when he's Tau, he wants to start 48" away, and when he's Tyranids you were a foot away?
Again, sorry that I upset you. The way I would react to a player of that sort is different from the way you react - obviously, he's been a visitor in your home - but I allowed my frustration at yyour situation to come across as a personal attack, and I should not have. Best of luck with your games.
Verviedi wrote: He won't play me if I have enough terrain on the board, he won't play me if there is a possibility he won't win because the objectives can't be camped. He BUYS HIS UNITS AND BUILDS THEM to be as effective as possible against nids, and abuses the hell out of the BS rules governing Tau and FMCs.
Best advice that can be given then is to return the favor and refuse to play them. Sad, but unfortunately the only real option if they are going to be such a poor sport. It doesn't even matter what army you use if your opponent tailors everything to be in their favor. If you were Eldar for instance, he'd probably throw up all manner of blocks-line-of-sight terrain and use the Thrust move to constantly move his things out of sight for return fire while bringing nothing but missiles and fusion blasters.
Don't take it as a failing on your part. It isn't you or your army really, it's the opponent.
Edit:
I suppose on a more practical level, if you are willing to invest a bit more into your army consider a box or two of Hive Guard. They are the bane of skimmers thanks to their ignoring cover and can be hidden out of line of sight while retaining the ability to shoot. They also add more T6 saturation and can 1-shot Crisis Suits. You might also want to convert your Tervigon to a Tyrannofex with Acid Spray, as it is fairly resilient and will melt down Fire Warriors without much difficulty (if you do that, you might want to add a box of Warriors to your shopping list for more synapse). Your opponent clearly has a larger collection to draw from, which doesn't help matters.
SBG wrote: I and others have been giving him advice for days on his other thread, but to no effect whatsoever.
To the point where it is coming across as a purposeful attempt at 'doing it wrong'. Happy if I'm wrong, but look at the long thread he's got going about 'OP Hammerheads' that kill multipleflyrants per turn and you'll see what I mean. I've offered advice aplenty, but we're all entitled to our opinions. Cheers.
Really? You think I'm TRYING to do it wrong? I've been trying to beat that bastard for a few months. I play the most competitive list I can vs. his unoptimized mess, and lose every single damn time thanks to always being disadvantaged purposefully by him. He won't play me if I have enough terrain on the board, he won't play me if there is a possibility he won't win because the objectives can't be camped. He BUYS HIS UNITS AND BUILDS THEM to be as effective as possible against nids, and abuses the hell out of the BS rules governing Tau and FMCs. I can guarantee I always go last due to my crappy rolling, and thanks to the absolute gak rules that say FMCs start in Gliding mode and can't switch into Swooping mode until your turn, my dual dakkarants always eat Railgun and Pulse Rifle shots first turn. While I roll 1s for my run moves, he's wiping entire squads of Gaunts with Submunition rounds that ignore cover, and dropping dual flamer deathstars into my Venomthropes and Zoanthropes. Do you know how fething infuriating that is? AND YOU ACCUSE ME OF TROLLING ABOUT IT? I've wasted hundreds of dollars on my bugs, and I can't win a single damn game with them.
First step is to not take what people say on the internet personally. Many people have many different opinions, and the best thing for you to do is not get upset. The worst thing you can do is feed the people who may or may not be trying to antagonize you by letting them get to you.
With that out of the way, there is another important rule to remember. It is a game. If you are getting upset and frustrated at the game, that is fine, those are natural responses in a competitive environment, but if you are never having fun you need to take a step back and try to ask yourself "why?"
The last rule to remember is that though armies may have advantages and disadvantages, some more than others on both sides of the spectrum, every army is absolutely playable right now. Anyone that says "blah, blah, op, broken, unplayable" really just isn't looking or trying hard enough in my eyes. I am sure Jy2 agrees, as he seems like me. Someone who appreciates underdogs, or disadvantages, or just being told something doesn't work and trying to prove them wrong.
If you are losing constantly, there are only 3 real reasons why this could be happening. The first could be the codex, not that the codex is bad or good, but is it the right fit for you? Second is your opponent, is he someone that is seemingly trying to take advantage of the situation and tip the odds in their favor in an unsporting way? Third is you, are you defeating yourself with your attitude towards your army/ opponent/ the game? These are important questions to consider.
It sounds like your opponent is a bit of a donkey butt and is trying to abuse the situation. The best way you can fight back is one of a number of ways. The first thing you can is stand your ground: do not submit to his abuse and insist that he play a fair game. If he refuses, don't play him. If you cater to his demands, than you are only enabling his behavior. Second, you can fight fire with fire: Think like he does, if he is catering a purely anti-nid, YET limited list, than build yours to counter his counters. Another thing you can do is address him directly, confront him about his behavior when off the table, try and get him to admit the behavior, otherwise it could go on and on.
Just remember, no one here is out to get you, at least no one worth paying attention to and the most important rule for warhammer is to try your hardest to have fun! Otherwise what is the point?
1) if you want Melee Carnifexes you should look at the Stone Crusher varient: It is considerable tougher than normal carnifexes and has some wargear options that make it intriguing.
2) Tyranid Prime can't join units of Carnifexes any more. It is a significant nerf. He doesn't work great unless you are running hoards. So I suggest one of two options. A) Deathleaper - He is cheap, and give you opponent something to shoot at for a bit before dying. Alternatively he can deep strike without scatter. B) Go full hog and run a dakka-Flyrant like the rest of us. It give you good anti-air, and some psychic support. 3) Malanthropes. The are the ideal support for Meleefexes. 1 Per 4-5 Carnifexes. 4) Gargoyles. They will keep your Carnifexes alive until they get there. 5) Carnifexes don't have to be fluffy/bad. They are our 3rd or 4th best unit. This Carnifex Spam list would do very well, against many, many things.
Spoiler:
Hive Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs) Hive Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs) Malanthrope Malanthrope 20 Hormagants 20 Hormagants 20 Gargoyles 2 Carnifexes (2 TL-Devourers) 2 Carnifexes (2 TL-Devourers) 2 Carnifexes (2 TL-Devourers) I've run this list a few times. It works very, very well, and tables quite a few opponents.
Thanks, tag, I appreciate the suggestions! The stonecrushers are an excellent idea, and I do really like the idea of using deathleaper for the HQ.
Malanthropes seem ideal; the thought of 6-7 Zoeies moving them up and providing support also seems fun, if probably less effective.
The list looks very solid. Pulling from it, hormagants might be a good call too.
Hormagants are highly devisive these days. However if you are running a Walking MC list, Hormagants or Gargoyles are a requirement. There are lots and lots of stuff out there that can beat our MC's in assault, fortunately most things that punk our MC's don't do so hot against a giant fearless mob. They also work well as a sort of advancing Aegis Line if you are using Dakkafexes.
The reason its got to be hormagants or gargoyles is that they can outrun the MC's, and thus don't get in their way as you advance them.
I always include Hormagants in my TAC lists mainly because I play a much more aggressive and flexible game then most Tyranid players.
Verviedi I would recommend playing him again in a mirror match on an appropriate table. This would serve a number of good functions:
1) you will get a chance to understand his army better and how it functions. Sometimes, we don't really understand what our target priority should be until we play the army and see what our valuable units really are. Also, watching what he goes for will tell you a great deal about what you should go for when you play him
2) it will give you an excellent chance to ferret out his cheating ways. Look through his codex while he is explaining how his army works. If he can't show you the rule that allows his army to function in the way that he says it does, he is either misinformed or cheating. Either way, you will have levelled the playing field
3) use his same restrictions against him. Make sure that you play on planet bowling ball, using the longest deployment you can, and sit back and blast the bejesus out of those Nids. Do not allow him any more terrain than he allows you. Most importantly, when he complains (and he will) that you are playing for an advantage, EXPLAIN CLEARLY TO HIM THST THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS DOING TO YOU. Don't actually shout when you do this - I've just emphasized it because it is so incredibly important. Whether he realizes what he's doing or not (and I believe that he does) the best way to turn the tables is to present him with the same set of ridiculous demands and when he says that he doesn't want to play it that way, you say these simple words:
"Ok man. We won't play it that way. You're right - it does seem a little un-fair. Do you mind if in the future we don't play like this if I'm using Nids and you're using Tau?"
That little litmus test will tell you everything you need to know about him. If he refuses to give you a fair game after that, you absolutely need to find a new opponent.
On a completely different note, I think you'll find that there are a number of people here who are genuinely interested in helping you or any other Tyranid players consume the galaxy. People don't always come across the way that they intend to, and I know in guilty of that myself. But if you've ever got specific questions, feel free to shoot me a PM. I'm not the most experienced general, but I'd be glad to help you out. 40k is a really fun and thematic game when you do it right. Would hate to see someone lose interest just because they can't find someone to play who's a decent human being
Automatically Appended Next Post: So this new super-lictor, or whatever it turns out to be, got me thinking - I wonder how it might work with....you know...actual lictors lol. Maybe not even regular lictors, but Deathleaper seems like a pretty decent candidate for a list with this dude. I know our knowledge of the new guy is very limited, so I wanted to focus on Deathleaper - has anyone had success running him? Seems like with shadows, the leadership reduction, and now maybe even that new Psychic bug we could have some interesting synergy. I know that some of the biggest reasons for excluding Deathleaper previously were:
1) you would have to take one less Flyrant
2) Deathleaper doesn't have Synapse (really, just take the Flyrant)
3) Deathleaper costs a lot for what he does (unlike a Flyrant, who can do everything)
Number three is still true, as are the not-so-veiled reminders that a Flyrant is, in many ways, just so much better. That being said, there seems to be a lot of potential Deathleaper synergy (and I do not mean with a Mawloc, although I'll probably still run one because why not). Maybe with some Raveners (or Shrikes because I know a lot of people like those more) you could have something resembling a decently assaulty list that wouldn't be too bad. This seems especially possible with the advent of the Malanthrope (or whatever you use) giving cheap synapse, abundant cover saves, and the fact that many places are opening up to self-ally or even double CAD.
On a related note, my FLGS is thinking about running a "true 7th edition tournament", meaning that if GW says it's ok, then it is. Quadruple CAD? Go for it. Forge World Lords of war? As long as they're on Forge World's list of Lords of War we're good. I've been talking to the tournament organizer and it seems like there's a decent chance that they'll use the BAO missions, so it will be incredibly interesting to see what happens. TBH I'm pretty torn as to whether I should bring a Harridan + Skyblight or a Hierophant + whatever
I ran my little RTT on Saturday. Since I was TO and Judge I didn't get to play. Thankfully, we are rotating TO duties and so I get to play the next one. The winning list was Space Wolves Drop Pods with Sentinals of Terra Grav Centurions in them. Specifically:
Spoiler:
CAD (Space Wolves):
Rune Priest
9 Grey Hunters (2 Melta guns) + Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Combi Melta, Melta Bomb, Power Fist) in a Drop Pod.
9 Grey Hunters (2 Melta guns) + Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Combi Melta, Melta Bomb, Power Fist) in a Drop Pod.
9 Grey Hunters (2 Melta guns) + Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Combi Melta, Melta Bomb, Power Fist) in a Drop Pod.
I understand completely how this list beat the Tau gunline for 1st overall, but my opinion is that I would generally roll this list easily. The Centurions come in and Alpha Strike hard, but without hit and run / Ignore Cover / GOI / or Levitate (he was rolling for it, but just 1 dice), I can just send over some Gargoyles / Gants to babysit them for 5 turns while I kill everything else. Is there any hidden threat that I'm not seeing here? 15 TL(prescience) Grav Shots are still only going to hit a flier 4.58 times, and even if they wound, I still cover save / jink away 1/2 of them. Between 2/3+ cover and FNP, my Barbed Heirodule would even survive long enough to get the tarpits in place.
Nope, like most drop pod armies you'd have to try pretty hard to lose against that one. Tough list for some other armies to face but I'm confident I'd steamroll that as well
I have to say the Toxicrene looks a lot cooler than it did in the first pic (especially if it actually comes with a blood angel to curb stomp lol). May just have to get that bad boy even if the rules are lackluster. I am definitely GW's favorite kind of sucker
...without going into detail, that was probably the most upsetting game I've ever had.
Assasins are upsettingly good...
First turn I lost my LAN and a hive crone to the Caladis and orbital bombardment.
second turn I lost the Malanthrope and the Dima to the Culexus.
third turn I just lost the enthusiasm to carry on playing. ( I lie, I lost it after turn one!)
half way through turn 4, all I had left was 1 Flyrant and 2 ripper swarms left. I have never been beaten that badly - I don't know if it's because the assassins caught me off guard and so I freaked out or if they really are that good. either way, I played awfully and they are extremely good.
Any pointers on how to deal with these!? they all infiltrate as well. mental!
The range on the typhon goes way down if the siege tank has moved. Remember that you can get a cover save for the bastion if you deploy it behind terrain such that it is obscured (not increased by the Malanthrope sadly). Sounds in general like you needed more cover that game. Your whole LAN wasn't benefitting from the Malanthrope's cover save?
But really, the bastion is quite durable. Yes, the orbital bombardment might take it down. Cool. You've still got your Malanthrope and he has no orbital bombardment.
luke1705 wrote: The range on the typhon goes way down if the siege tank has moved. Remember that you can get a cover save for the bastion if you deploy it behind terrain such that it is obscured (not increased by the Malanthrope sadly). Sounds in general like you needed more cover that game. Your whole LAN wasn't benefitting from the Malanthrope's cover save?
But really, the bastion is quite durable. Yes, the orbital bombardment might take it down. Cool. You've still got your Malanthrope and he has no orbital bombardment.
The assassins just freaked me out. I've never come up against 4 of them before and having them all there in my midst just completely threw me off!
There was a lot of terrain on the board, I think I just went into feck it mode. too many big threats. no way to avoid them all. better off just letting the bad stuff happen...
Also, even with the Typhons halved range, it still has a max range of 36"...
I avoided it for 1 turn which is all I could manage really.
I had high hopes for you!! Tough matchup first opponent too.....It's too bad you landed your Flyrants. I feel like had you not done that you would have had more of a chance.
On a side note, I decided on the list I am going to be bringing for my next 1850 (FW allowed, limited LOW, allies allowed although 2 sources max, and Tyranids can self ally, will be using LVOFAQ and similar LVO mission packet):
CAD DakkaFlyrant - E.grubs
DakkaFlyrant - E.grubs
Malenthrope
3 Deep striking Rippers
3 Deep striking Rippers
3 Deep striking Rippers
3 Deep striking Rippers
15 Gargoyles
Mawloc
Mawloc
Tyrannofex - Adrenal Glands, E.grubs
Allies DakkaFlyrant - E.grubs
Venomthrope
3 Deep striking Rippers
Tyrannofex - Adrenal Glands, E.grubs
Total = 1845
Played a two games using two of the missions in the packet. Lost 6-7 against Fire Cadre Tau with FWHQ, 2 sniper teams, Riptide, and 2 solo fusion suits. Mission was eliminate 3 targets (worth 4 points as primary), modified maelstrom (worth 3 points as secondary), and each tertiary worth 1 point with a modified First blood so each player can achieve it. There were a couple misplays on my part, and a couple misplays by my opponent. Otherwise great guy and cool fluffy list. However, does anyone know how killing an Ethereal counts towards the final point count at the end of a game that doesn't use VP scoring?
Second game was against SM/GK using the Sicarian tank. His list included a Chaplain, Libby, a unit of 6 Terminators, 2 Tac squads with Lascannons, 2 Tac squads in Rhinos with melta, 2 Legion of the Damned with combi-melta, multimelta, and meltagun, the Stormclaw gunship?, and a unit of GK Terminators. I won this game 7-6. It was a mission that involved table quarters + middle circle (4 points as primary), modified maelstrom (worth 3 points as secondary), and each tertiary worth 1 point with a modified First blood so each player can achieve it. Again, my opponent was good guy. We both had our share of luck, including one of my Mawlocs wiping half his HQ terminator unit out turn 2 and denying his Gate of infinity turn 1. He had his Sicarian tank immobilize itself turn 2. Actually, now that I've written the bit about luck, luck was definitely in my favor through that game. Either way, great opponent, awesome list.
Couple thoughts:
Gargoyles, didn't do much. Actually, they didn't do anything except force my opponents to shoot at them, in order to remove the mobile cover unit for my larger units. They almost got to tie up a Riptide game 1.
Double T-fex. Wow. SUPER durable. Given, both my opponents were expecting armor heavy opponents, so the matchups slightly favored me because the lack of AP2 weaponry really hurt them.
Mawlocs are awesome. Enough said.
I could probably find something better to put points into instead of the Gargoyles, but the buffer between drop marines is nice to have...
What do you guys thinks?
With regards to the Ethereal worth 2x VP's, the BAO/LVO plays it (and Warlord traits giving you VP's for slaying other characters or whatnot) that they count towards the Secondary mission. Basically, unless the bonuses pertain directly to the Primary mission itself (i.e. Scouring Fast Attacks, Big Guns Heavy supports), all other bonus VP's from Warlord Traits and/or codex-specific rules count towards the Secondaries.
I think you need to run a larger unit of gargoyles. I'd recommend at least a unit of 20. You can drop 1 unit of rippers (you've got way too many IMO) to fit in more gargoyles. They really are a great utility unit but don't work as well in smaller numbers (unless you are playing recyclable Skyblight gargoyles).
SBG wrote: I and others have been giving him advice for days on his other thread, but to no effect whatsoever.
To the point where it is coming across as a purposeful attempt at 'doing it wrong'. Happy if I'm wrong, but look at the long thread he's got going about 'OP Hammerheads' that kill multipleflyrants per turn and you'll see what I mean. I've offered advice aplenty, but we're all entitled to our opinions. Cheers.
Really? You think I'm TRYING to do it wrong? I've been trying to beat that bastard for a few months. I play the most competitive list I can vs. his unoptimized mess, and lose every single damn time thanks to always being disadvantaged purposefully by him. He won't play me if I have enough terrain on the board, he won't play me if there is a possibility he won't win because the objectives can't be camped. He BUYS HIS UNITS AND BUILDS THEM to be as effective as possible against nids, and abuses the hell out of the BS rules governing Tau and FMCs. I can guarantee I always go last due to my crappy rolling, and thanks to the absolute gak rules that say FMCs start in Gliding mode and can't switch into Swooping mode until your turn, my dual dakkarants always eat Railgun and Pulse Rifle shots first turn. While I roll 1s for my run moves, he's wiping entire squads of Gaunts with Submunition rounds that ignore cover, and dropping dual flamer deathstars into my Venomthropes and Zoanthropes. Do you know how fething infuriating that is? AND YOU ACCUSE ME OF TROLLING ABOUT IT? I've wasted hundreds of dollars on my bugs, and I can't win a single damn game with them.
My honest opinion is that you need to FIRM UP. DO NOT always give in to him. It's like you're willing to play with 1 hand tied behind your back. Dice roll you can't do anything about. He is also able to tailor his list against yours, just as you are able to tailor your list against his. However, what you can do and what you SHOULD do is to INSIST on the other factors being fair. That means the types of terrain used, terrain placement, deployment of your forces, and other stuff that should not be beyond your control. After all, he wants to play just as much as you. Why do you have to give in to his unfair treatment/advantage? Be firm. Be honest. Tell him that these games are not fair and that you are sick of being taken advantage of. INSIST on having a fair game where terrain is adequate and fairly placed.
1 thing I normally do with my opponents is to take turns placing terrain. Therefore, there is no pre-terrain deployment that gives advantage to one side and disadvantage to another. Roll off to see who places terrain first and then take turns placing terrain. Do so until at least 25% of the table is filled with terrain (25% is about the standard for a terrain placement, with a mixture of area terrain, ruins and Line-of-sight blocking terrain.)
If you continue to let him take advantage of you, then you've really got no one to blame for not standing up for yourself.
WOW! Those new nid models are AWESOME!!!!
Cant wait for the rules, especially the maleceptor since it mentions that they use psychic powers to destroy vehicles like living beings !!!
Im sooo happy about this new model ! Oh and someone tell Incontrol he cant call zoanthropes the brain bugs anymore because the maleceptor has 6 of them ! LOL
cyberjonesy wrote: WOW! Those new nid models are AWESOME!!!! Cant wait for the rules, especially the maleceptor since it mentions that they use psychic powers to destroy vehicles like living beings !!!
Im sooo happy about this new model ! Oh and someone tell Incontrol he cant call zoanthropes the brain bugs anymore because the maleceptor has 6 of them ! LOL
There are rules floating around - the majority of the Tyranid community don't like them at present. The Psychic Power the Maleceptor(?)has only causes one glance IIRC.
Everyone is just hoping for 12 inch movement, as well as better
So I know how everyone is wondering whether or not these new bugs will pan out....just thinking about them got me in the mood to paint some of my Nids. This isn't a finished product by any means yet (and I can't draw my way out of a paper bag so even this is progress) but I thought you guys might like to see a critter that I've been using as a Harpy. Technically modeled for advantage? Sure I guess you could call it that. I call it "modeled for awesome". I'm sure some people will recognize the base model (only cost me $10 more than a harpy too!)
I swear my camera just decides what orientation they'll be on a whim.
I've got a Kill Team Tourney coming up. I've never played kill team before. 200 Points. No MC's, No fliers, every model for itself. Seems like it will be rough for Tyranids, because shrouded bubbles won't work well.
Three Warriors/Shrikes-Barbed Strangler with Ignore Cover, One with Eternal Warrior. One is Warlord.
Termagants/Gargoyles
Hive Guard with preferred enemy.
Some like a Venomthrope. I prefer Warriors so I can take Gargoyles.
cyberjonesy wrote: just swarm your ennemy with gaunts, im sure you ought to scare the hell out of your oponent on a 200 pt game where you bring 50 models
50% of them would run off the board, and then I'd have to take break tests every turns in addition to synapse. It would be a slaughter, but not the way you think.
Sinful Hero wrote: 200pts is very limiting. About all you can run are three Shrikes plus Termagants or Hormagaunts really.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I assume you're still choosing USRs?
Yep. Choosing USRs.
Almost always I prefer Shrikes to Warriors. But in a Kill Team environment, I'm wonder if warriors might be better because of their 4+ armor save, and I5.
I was thinking this:
3 Warriors (Deathspitters, RCs) <- Give one E.W.(warlord), give one Armorbane on the Deathspitter, give one Shrouded.
16 Hormagants
cyberjonesy wrote: just swarm your ennemy with gaunts, im sure you ought to scare the hell out of your oponent on a 200 pt game where you bring 50 models
50% of them would run off the board, and then I'd have to take break tests every turns in addition to synapse. It would be a slaughter, but not the way you think.
My bad you re right, did nt think about synapse lol.
how bout a zoan , a venomthrope then all termagants.move from ruins to ruins for 2+ cover Ought to be hella fun !
Sinful Hero wrote: 200pts is very limiting. About all you can run are three Shrikes plus Termagants or Hormagaunts really.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I assume you're still choosing USRs?
Yep. Choosing USRs.
Almost always I prefer Shrikes to Warriors. But in a Kill Team environment, I'm wonder if warriors might be better because of their 4+ armor save, and I5.
I was thinking this:
3 Warriors (Deathspitters, RCs) <- Give one E.W.(warlord), give one Armorbane on the Deathspitter, give one Shrouded.
16 Hormagants
Unfortunately you can't give your Warlord a Specialization, so you'll have to waste one on gants. It would be easier to hit side or rear armor with Shrikes, but a 4+ save is pretty awesome in Kill Teams- almost everything is AP5 except for their one or two antitank weapons. Also, the Taurox is a BEAST and will instagib your warriors.
I personally prefer including a Barbed Strangler to take care of pesky hordes(Orks mainly, Guard as well). There's usually always a few good targets, although it's almost exclusively anti-infantry. So it's really up to personal taste. Deathspitters are the bee's knees, but I would feel Rending Claws are wasted. Most things you'd be in CC with Scything Talons are enough. Other things you dakka down with Deathspitters.
Sinful Hero wrote: Unfortunately you can't give your Warlord a Specialization, so you'll have to waste one on gants. It would be easier to hit side or rear armor with Shrikes, but a 4+ save is pretty awesome in Kill Teams- almost everything is AP5 except for their one or two antitank weapons. Also, the Taurox is a BEAST and will instagib your warriors.
I personally prefer including a Barbed Strangler to take care of pesky hordes(Orks mainly, Guard as well). There's usually always a few good targets, although it's almost exclusively anti-infantry. So it's really up to personal taste. Deathspitters are the bee's knees, but I would feel Rending Claws are wasted. Most things you'd be in CC with Scything Talons are enough. Other things you dakka down with Deathspitters.
Luckily, my local meta HATE the taurox. I don't think anybody has one. Personally I think it looks a little funny, but don't think it is that bad.
The RC's were my idea for an alternate anti-tank weapon in case the armorbane didn't get it done. I see so many Rhinos, Razorbacks, and Chimeras in normal games that I'm sure to see one in Kill team, and a Tac Squad in a Rhino or a Veteran Squad in a Chimera make an awful hard nut to Crack. Something like 2 Scout squads in Land Speeders seems nearly unbeatable.
I'll definitely consider an ignore cover Barbed Strangler. Would Shred perhaps be an even better USR?
Probably depends a lot on your tables- is there a lot of area terrain for mooks to hide in? It's also a little bit of personal preference. And jetbikes. Ignores cover eats them alive.
Mind if I ask why Hormagaunts over Gargoyles? They have a better IB, a gun, blind/poison attack, and can move much faster. Not to mention just two or three per warrior works as mobile cover. Granted, hormagaunts can do the cover thing as well.
Mind if I ask why Hormagaunts over Gargoyles? They have a better IB, a gun, blind/poison attack, and can move much faster. Not to mention just two or three per warrior works as mobile cover. Granted, hormagaunts can do the cover thing as well.
In kill teams IB: Feed is actually better, as each model counts as its own squad. Thus, all results are automatically upgraded to "Devour" (must assault if possible, no run) which is less debilitating than self-pinning (can't do anything but snap-shoot).
Sinful Hero wrote: Probably depends a lot on your tables- is there a lot of area terrain for mooks to hide in? It's also a little bit of personal preference. And jetbikes. Ignores cover eats them alive.
Mind if I ask why Hormagaunts over Gargoyles? They have a better IB, a gun, blind/poison attack, and can move much faster. Not to mention just two or three per warrior works as mobile cover. Granted, hormagaunts can do the cover thing as well.
Basically, I get 2 extra wounds if I go Hormagants rather than Gargoyles. It was a tossup.
Mind if I ask why Hormagaunts over Gargoyles? They have a better IB, a gun, blind/poison attack, and can move much faster. Not to mention just two or three per warrior works as mobile cover. Granted, hormagaunts can do the cover thing as well.
In kill teams IB: Feed is actually better, as each model counts as its own squad. Thus, all results are automatically upgraded to "Devour" (must assault if possible, no run) which is less debilitating than self-pinning (can't do anything but snap-shoot).
tag8833 wrote: I ran my little RTT on Saturday. Since I was TO and Judge I didn't get to play. Thankfully, we are rotating TO duties and so I get to play the next one. The winning list was Space Wolves Drop Pods with Sentinals of Terra Grav Centurions in them. Specifically:
Spoiler:
CAD (Space Wolves):
Rune Priest
9 Grey Hunters (2 Melta guns) + Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Combi Melta, Melta Bomb, Power Fist) in a Drop Pod.
9 Grey Hunters (2 Melta guns) + Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Combi Melta, Melta Bomb, Power Fist) in a Drop Pod.
9 Grey Hunters (2 Melta guns) + Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Combi Melta, Melta Bomb, Power Fist) in a Drop Pod.
I understand completely how this list beat the Tau gunline for 1st overall, but my opinion is that I would generally roll this list easily. The Centurions come in and Alpha Strike hard, but without hit and run / Ignore Cover / GOI / or Levitate (he was rolling for it, but just 1 dice), I can just send over some Gargoyles / Gants to babysit them for 5 turns while I kill everything else. Is there any hidden threat that I'm not seeing here? 15 TL(prescience) Grav Shots are still only going to hit a flier 4.58 times, and even if they wound, I still cover save / jink away 1/2 of them. Between 2/3+ cover and FNP, my Barbed Heirodule would even survive long enough to get the tarpits in place.
Don't under-estimate the list. Drop pod armies are very good in tournament play, especially if the tournament incorporate Maelstrom objectives in it like the BAO does. Because it's not just 5 units of marines you have to go through. It's 12 ObSec units and 4 other units that you have to go through. They beat you by controlling all the objectives with mostly ObSec units and then you are fighting from behind because you are the one who needs to get them off the objectives (+5 ObSec drop pods). This type of army throws a monkey wrench into my Positional Dominance theory because they're not as affected by positioning as most other armies - they're already on objectives and it's not easy to take them off. If centurions can take out your flyrants on T1, then it doesn't matter if they get locked in combat, they've already done their job and taken out your most mobile unit. Then they will be controlling the Movement phase and your army will have trouble reaching the other objectives.
I have to say the Toxicrene looks a lot cooler than it did in the first pic (especially if it actually comes with a blood angel to curb stomp lol). May just have to get that bad boy even if the rules are lackluster. I am definitely GW's favorite kind of sucker
Agreed. The toxicrene looks way cool and I'd get it just because it's purdy.
The maleceptor, on the other hand, just looks plain stupid.
...without going into detail, that was probably the most upsetting game I've ever had.
Assasins are upsettingly good...
First turn I lost my LAN and a hive crone to the Caladis and orbital bombardment.
second turn I lost the Malanthrope and the Dima to the Culexus.
third turn I just lost the enthusiasm to carry on playing. ( I lie, I lost it after turn one!)
half way through turn 4, all I had left was 1 Flyrant and 2 ripper swarms left. I have never been beaten that badly - I don't know if it's because the assassins caught me off guard and so I freaked out or if they really are that good. either way, I played awfully and they are extremely good.
Any pointers on how to deal with these!? they all infiltrate as well. mental!
Yeah, space marines are no joke. They are much, much improved in this edition and Assassins are really damn good. The assassins are also really easily under-estimated, at least for the very first they when you face them. Basically, you need to get walloped by them at least once to gain the experience on how to play against them. Against the callidus, bubble-wrapping helps a lot. That's the reason I try to take a large squad of gargoyles in my army for these types of armies (drop pods and units like the callidus). Against the culexus, you need to make sure your units are in range of the malanthropes/venomthropes. Against the vindicare, well, he isn't as effective against Tyranids as he is against mech armies but he is still annoying. Finally the eversore is a close-combat beast who is meant to take on small to medium sized/threat units. And then there is the rest of the Space Marine army with scouting grav bikes and all their shooting. This is an example of a Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) space marine army that can put a lot of pressure against the opposing army.
Against them, I would recommend:
1) You want to go 1st against these types of alpha-strike armies. That will really screw up their infiltrating/scouting plans.
2) The bastion really helps against alpha-striking armies like these. It will keep your malan/venom alive, which in turn will keep the rest of your army alive. If you don't protect your shroud-buffer, it becomes like a domino effect. Once he falls, so too will the rest of your army. Also, with the bastion you can take the Comms Relay. That will help if you want to go mainly reserves with your army.
3) A bubble-wrapping unit will also be very useful against these types of armies, both as a buffer and to give your big guys cover. That's one of the reasons why I try to have 1 large unit of gargoyles in my army if I am not running Skyblight. It is also a reason why tervigons + termagants aren't as bad as most would think.
4) Place your "core" in a corner and the objectives away from it. Reserve non-mobile units like the dimachaeron. Basically, this "core" will act as a decoy. As he drops 2-3 units there to try to take them out (in the hopes of tabling you on T1), you then abandon it and now his 20-30 marines are way out of position and away from the objectives. Just make sure whatever is there can survive his alpha-strike. You'd probably have to give up your malanthrope (who will be part of the core), but once he goes for the decoy, then you really don't need the protection of the malan anymore. Then redirect the rest of your army towards the other objectives that are less protected and them mop up on the troops there.
5) It is VERY important how you place your objectives and how you deploy. Against drop pod armies, spread out the objectives as far away as possible (or at least as far away from where you are planning to deploy as possible). Place at least one near your deployment edge and near some ruins or cover. This way, you can reserve your dima and then have him walk on onto the marines on your objective. Then when you charge him next turn, Smash on your 1st round of combat and then finish off the troops on your opponent's Assault phase.
6) I recommend ignoring the assassins at first and go after the bikes. The culexus is especially annoying as you hit him in shooting/attack as if you are BS1/WS1. And be careful against him in combat as any wound rolls of 6 by him causes Instant Death (against Psykers, any of his wounds causes ID). Go after the bikes to kill his mobility. Flyrants should also go after the stormtalons when they come in.
The maleceptor, on the other hand, just looks plain stupid.
It looks better in this picture. Kinda looks like a cross between a Zoanthrope and a Tyrant Guard to me (I like it personally):
The side view looks better, but I just don't like the front view of the maley with his undersized talons and oversized body. It just kinda makes him look comical to me.
tag8833 wrote: I ran my little RTT on Saturday. Since I was TO and Judge I didn't get to play. Thankfully, we are rotating TO duties and so I get to play the next one. The winning list was Space Wolves Drop Pods with Sentinals of Terra Grav Centurions in them. Specifically:
Spoiler:
CAD (Space Wolves):
Rune Priest
9 Grey Hunters (2 Melta guns) + Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Combi Melta, Melta Bomb, Power Fist) in a Drop Pod.
9 Grey Hunters (2 Melta guns) + Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Combi Melta, Melta Bomb, Power Fist) in a Drop Pod.
9 Grey Hunters (2 Melta guns) + Wolf Guard Pack Leader (Combi Melta, Melta Bomb, Power Fist) in a Drop Pod.
I understand completely how this list beat the Tau gunline for 1st overall, but my opinion is that I would generally roll this list easily. The Centurions come in and Alpha Strike hard, but without hit and run / Ignore Cover / GOI / or Levitate (he was rolling for it, but just 1 dice), I can just send over some Gargoyles / Gants to babysit them for 5 turns while I kill everything else. Is there any hidden threat that I'm not seeing here? 15 TL(prescience) Grav Shots are still only going to hit a flier 4.58 times, and even if they wound, I still cover save / jink away 1/2 of them. Between 2/3+ cover and FNP, my Barbed Heirodule would even survive long enough to get the tarpits in place.
Don't under-estimate the list. Drop pod armies are very good in tournament play, especially if the tournament incorporate Maelstrom objectives in it like the BAO does. Because it's not just 5 units of marines you have to go through. It's 12 ObSec units and 4 other units that you have to go through. They beat you by controlling all the objectives with mostly ObSec units and then you are fighting from behind because you are the one who needs to get them off the objectives (+5 ObSec drop pods). This type of army throws a monkey wrench into my Positional Dominance theory because they're not as affected by positioning as most other armies - they're already on objectives and it's not easy to take them off. If centurions can take out your flyrants on T1, then it doesn't matter if they get locked in combat, they've already done their job and taken out your most mobile unit. Then they will be controlling the Movement phase and your army will have trouble reaching the other objectives.
If you substitute Sternguard for Centurions, I've played against this list many many times. I admit that 5 OS Drop pods are a problem, and can be quite a challenge scoring early maelstrom points. If they threw the house at them, they could certainly kill a Flyrant with their alpha strike. If I have to take enough saves, I'll fail 4 2+ covers eventually. However, everything that comes in turn 1 will be dead or tarpitted by turn 2. At that point its just a matter of mop up. I could still lose to the OS drop pods, but not very likely.
This looks like a decent drop pod list against many matchups. But against a good Tyranid list with Fliers and screening units it shouldn't be much of a problem.
Also, if you lose more than one Flyrant to this list you are cursed by the dice gods or did something wrong with deployment. Note: if they bring in the drop pods hot to alpha strike you, they are going to have to deploy their drop pods more aggressively and won't be able to castle up on objectives which would probably be their better bet.
With both squads having Prescience (should be able to deny 1), 6 Centurions are making a flyrant take 23.7 saves. With a 2+ cover that means basically they can Kill 1 Flyrant. If you have a void shield they can't even do that much. As a matter of comparison for about 190 fewer points, 2 squads of 10 sterngard can force 22.2 saves, and achieve essentially the same outcome. Plus they get to overwatch and are more difficult to tarpit.
tag8833 wrote: I've got a Kill Team Tourney coming up. I've never played kill team before. 200 Points. No MC's, No fliers, every model for itself. Seems like it will be rough for Tyranids, because shrouded bubbles won't work well.
Does anyone have advice for playing kill team?
I was very surprised how well the Shroud bubble worked when I ran a Venomthrope in killteam game with broodlord and stealers. Being the only time I ever got one in a assault, I was very impressed with the 2+ poision. Also have run a zoanthrope and guant lists that work well. An armorbaned devourer is all the amusing.
Warriors are surprisingly good in a KT format as long as you don't over-equip them. Packing in a venomthrope for survivability helps unless the enemy has a missile launcher specialist with the ignores cover USR...
I had high hopes for you!! Tough matchup first opponent too.....It's too bad you landed your Flyrants. I feel like had you not done that you would have had more of a chance.
On a side note, I decided on the list I am going to be bringing for my next 1850 (FW allowed, limited LOW, allies allowed although 2 sources max, and Tyranids can self ally, will be using LVOFAQ and similar LVO mission packet):
CAD DakkaFlyrant - E.grubs
DakkaFlyrant - E.grubs
Malenthrope
3 Deep striking Rippers
3 Deep striking Rippers
3 Deep striking Rippers
3 Deep striking Rippers
15 Gargoyles
Mawloc
Mawloc
Tyrannofex - Adrenal Glands, E.grubs
Allies DakkaFlyrant - E.grubs
Venomthrope
3 Deep striking Rippers
Tyrannofex - Adrenal Glands, E.grubs
Total = 1845
Played a two games using two of the missions in the packet. Lost 6-7 against Fire Cadre Tau with FWHQ, 2 sniper teams, Riptide, and 2 solo fusion suits. Mission was eliminate 3 targets (worth 4 points as primary), modified maelstrom (worth 3 points as secondary), and each tertiary worth 1 point with a modified First blood so each player can achieve it. There were a couple misplays on my part, and a couple misplays by my opponent. Otherwise great guy and cool fluffy list. However, does anyone know how killing an Ethereal counts towards the final point count at the end of a game that doesn't use VP scoring?
Second game was against SM/GK using the Sicarian tank. His list included a Chaplain, Libby, a unit of 6 Terminators, 2 Tac squads with Lascannons, 2 Tac squads in Rhinos with melta, 2 Legion of the Damned with combi-melta, multimelta, and meltagun, the Stormclaw gunship?, and a unit of GK Terminators. I won this game 7-6. It was a mission that involved table quarters + middle circle (4 points as primary), modified maelstrom (worth 3 points as secondary), and each tertiary worth 1 point with a modified First blood so each player can achieve it. Again, my opponent was good guy. We both had our share of luck, including one of my Mawlocs wiping half his HQ terminator unit out turn 2 and denying his Gate of infinity turn 1. He had his Sicarian tank immobilize itself turn 2. Actually, now that I've written the bit about luck, luck was definitely in my favor through that game. Either way, great opponent, awesome list.
Couple thoughts:
Gargoyles, didn't do much. Actually, they didn't do anything except force my opponents to shoot at them, in order to remove the mobile cover unit for my larger units. They almost got to tie up a Riptide game 1.
Double T-fex. Wow. SUPER durable. Given, both my opponents were expecting armor heavy opponents, so the matchups slightly favored me because the lack of AP2 weaponry really hurt them.
Mawlocs are awesome. Enough said.
I could probably find something better to put points into instead of the Gargoyles, but the buffer between drop marines is nice to have...
What do you guys thinks?
With regards to the Ethereal worth 2x VP's, the BAO/LVO plays it (and Warlord traits giving you VP's for slaying other characters or whatnot) that they count towards the Secondary mission. Basically, unless the bonuses pertain directly to the Primary mission itself (i.e. Scouring Fast Attacks, Big Guns Heavy supports), all other bonus VP's from Warlord Traits and/or codex-specific rules count towards the Secondaries.
I think you need to run a larger unit of gargoyles. I'd recommend at least a unit of 20. You can drop 1 unit of rippers (you've got way too many IMO) to fit in more gargoyles. They really are a great utility unit but don't work as well in smaller numbers (unless you are playing recyclable Skyblight gargoyles).
Thanks for the input jy2.
Dropping a ripper unit nets me 8 more Gargoyles. I like the change. Thanks for the suggestion.
One less one and done unit, but a significantly stronger screening unit.
luke1705 wrote: So I know how everyone is wondering whether or not these new bugs will pan out....just thinking about them got me in the mood to paint some of my Nids. This isn't a finished product by any means yet (and I can't draw my way out of a paper bag so even this is progress) but I thought you guys might like to see a critter that I've been using as a Harpy. Technically modeled for advantage? Sure I guess you could call it that. I call it "modeled for awesome". I'm sure some people will recognize the base model (only cost me $10 more than a harpy too!)
I swear my camera just decides what orientation they'll be on a whim.
Iechine wrote: Ill order the Toxicrene/maleceptor kit on Saturday. I bought a Haruspex on looks alone, so this is nothing new.
To be fair, I do like the sound of instant death on our weapons, its the 12" range that is unfortunate. Also the ID from S10 weapons.
Does set a nice precedent. And allegedly they both are toughness 6. The Toxicrene is supposed to be strength 5 but who cares when it wounds on a 2+ always, often a re-rollable one? I probably will have to get the kit for looks and because what it is SUPPOSED to do really is my style. Whether it does or not is another thing entirely, but ill always give Cthulhu the benefit of the doubt. Because you must
Hope for a formation in the BA/nids campaign book giving the toxfex fleet, or shrouded bubble. Otherwise why would you ever use them in a serious game?
The brain bug there is no helping.
Model for the toxic avenger is pretty sick, and would be a great source for bits for a reaper of obliterax.
gigasnail wrote: Hope for a formation in the BA/nids campaign book giving the toxfex fleet, or shrouded bubble. Otherwise why would you ever use them in a serious game?
The brain bug there is no helping.
Model for the toxic avenger is pretty sick, and would be a great source for bits for a reaper of obliterax.
Did they release a formation for either side from Stormclaw? I really didn't pay much attention to that release
So I haven't really been paying much attention to my Nids recently, these new releases have peeked my interest again, even if the actual release is a disappointment.
What's new on the competitive scene for us? How are we dealing with things like AdLance and Serpent Spam?
Seems to me that the Maleceptor is the worst unit available to Tyranids. It is likely to kill itself via perils before it kill an enemy unit with that crappy psychic power, and it is more expensive and less survivable than our other support units. Truely this is a masterpiece of suck.
Iechine wrote: Ill order the Toxicrene/maleceptor kit on Saturday. I bought a Haruspex on looks alone, so this is nothing new.
To be fair, I do like the sound of instant death on our weapons, its the 12" range that is unfortunate. Also the ID from S10 weapons.
Does set a nice precedent. And allegedly they both are toughness 6. The Toxicrene is supposed to be strength 5 but who cares when it wounds on a 2+ always, often a re-rollable one?
The Tyranid player that usually play against 3 Maulerfiends with a 24" cover-ignoring close combat threat range, backed up by 3 Fleeting, extrarunning Soulgrinders?
Tyran wrote: And they seem useless. Good job GW, I can't wait when you are dead and someone buys the IP.
Exalts. And if people don't like this crappy release, please don't support it by spending your money on it immediately, encouraging them to continue to do it, and prolonging the life of GW's terrible management. Just let them die, buy the model later on.
wow ... terrible terrible rules ... I dont understand why this keeps hapening ... We get 2 new Haruspex wanabes, I am speechless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aaaaaaaanyway ... since this is a tactics thread after all , might as well, at least try, to come up with something usefull about this new release ...
So toxicrene is a 160 pts, heavy support that throws a large pie plate that wounds pretty much anything and ignores cover but most things still get 4+or 3+ regular save against it. It is 12" so you have to crawl your monster up to firing range. Basically, mawlocs have nothing to fear there. Armor bane on a str 3 weapon is barely worth mentioning especially with the range of the weapon (your toxicrene will never be in range to even try)... I can see potential in melee with the 6 attacks on the profile. When you think about it, the pie plate is only a small bonus to this unit, it really is a dedicated melee monster with a little extra. With 6 ap 2 attacks that wound on 2 and rerolls against most units, you have the potential to clear any infantry squad that you manage to charge, except TH:SS termies. Still, not a unit I would include in my list (Mawlocs, exocrines and dakkafex are still king of the hill in the HS slot).
The maleceptor is "cough" 200ish pts "cough" and, I think, is aimed at either sniping psykers (or try to) or glancing down AV13+ spam lists. It becomes less and less efficient the lower the AV of your target (we have more efficient ways to deal with AV12 or less). This guy will chew up all of your warp charges and leave a vehicle or 2 down a hull point at best. Rolling a 11 or better on 3d6 gives you 50% chance of success but you still have to roll to hit on a bs 3 because of the witchfire rule. which basically translates of 25% chance to glance (ignoring cover) provided you harnessed enough warp charges and that you were not denied... or deflected by a certain 4+ shield. It is also suceptible to perils. So yes, this unit is very bad and I dont see any competitive list running them , especially when they share the slot with malanthropes and the like.
cyberjonesy wrote: wow ... terrible terrible rules ...
I dont understand why this keeps hapening ... We get 2 new Haruspex wanabes, I am speechless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aaaaaaaanyway ... since this is a tactics thread after all , might as well, at least try, to come up with something usefull about this new release ...
So toxicrene is a 160 pts, heavy support that throws a large pie plate that wounds pretty much anything and ignores cover but most things still get 4+or 3+ regular save against it. It is 12" so you have to crawl your monster up to firing range. Basically, mawlocs have nothing to fear there. Armor bane on a str 3 weapon is barely worth mentioning especially with the range of the weapon (your toxicrene will never be in range to even try)... I can see potential in melee with the 6 attacks on the profile. When you think about it, the pie plate is only a small bonus to this unit, it really is a dedicated melee monster with a little extra. With 6 ap 2 attacks that wound on 2 and rerolls against most units, you have the potential to clear any infantry squad that you manage to charge, except TH:SS termies. Still, not a unit I would include in my list (Mawlocs, exocrines and dakkafex are still king of the hill in the HS slot).
The maleceptor is "cough" 200ish pts "cough" and, I think, is aimed at either sniping psykers (or try to) or glancing down AV13+ spam lists. It becomes less and less efficient the lower the AV of your target (we have more efficient ways to deal with AV12 or less). This guy will chew up all of your warp charges and leave a vehicle or 2 down a hull point at best. Rolling a 11 or better on 3d6 gives you 50% chance of success but you still have to roll to hit on a bs 3 because of the witchfire rule. which basically translates of 25% chance to glance (ignoring cover) provided you harnessed enough warp charges and that you were not denied... or deflected by a certain 4+ shield. It is also suceptible to perils. So yes, this unit is very bad and I dont see any competitive list running them , especially when they share the slot with malanthropes and the like.
it's like they are trying to say " No honest, it doesn't totally suck!
you're right. to be fair it doesn't totally suck but for the following two reasons I won't bother:
1. Dimachaeron does it better.
2. It's lash whips are ridiculously too long/wide.
Also rules side note:
by the sounds of their recommendations for cover, it looks like intervening model works just by having a model in front of another model from a third party- not covering 25%!
You know why the new Toxecrene is so terrible? Krak grenades. If a Toxicrene charges a 10 man Tac squad in cover, the Tox would lose 3.33 wounds just to 10 marines with Krak grenades. And that's assuming the Sarge has no power weapon or anything! If the Sarge has a Power Maul (my personal favorite) the Crene takes an even 4 wounds. But wait, what if they have overwatch?
Let's say a Toxicrene charges a 10 man tac squad with a flamer/missile launcher and Power Maul. Assuming 3++ cover, the Toxicrene will take 4.35 wounds before he's even swung. And then hitting back he kills 3-4 Tac marines (3.4 statistically).
This is a Close Combat oriented MC who charges a basic loadout of a standard troop, and LOSES COMBAT. That's assuming NOTHING else targets him (and you can bet such a points sink will take a few shots early, like from said tac squad.)
I genuinely can't fathom who thought a 4+ armor save was a good idea. I don't know how they thought a Space Marine was better armored than this guy. And the most sad, infuriating part is how close this guy was to being cool. SO CLOSE. If they had done one of the following two things, I would buy two of these.
1. change type to Beast, or other 12" move.
2. 3+ armor save and access to biomorphs.
Seriously, if I could just buy it the normal upgrades from the MC uprades I may even think about it. But no Fleet? I mean come on... At least let me spend the points to buy it fleet!
Sigh. I'm done ranting for now, mostly because this popped out of the blue and I still had my hopes up. Plus, that Toxicrene model is honestly pretty sweet. Just don't mention the Maleceptor around me and I'll stay calm...
Just a quick look at the Tau list says you go cheated again or the opponent is still not reading the codex. Drone controller on the Riptide? Either misplayed or miss reading drone rules. Did he play the markerlights correclty?
SBG wrote: I honestly think he's trolling at this point.
Lighten up on the kid please. It's obvious he is new, both to Tyranid tactics and the rules to the game (let alone other people's armies).
It's better to help him out with correct information and tactical advice rather than accusations of cheating and trolling. We need to encourage new players to the hobby, not vice versa.
Oh agree, just trying to figure out what the opponent is doing. Based on the original thread by Verviedi the opponent is really screw him over. That makes it hard to give good advice. On the other hand I like Verviedi's paint scheme.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jifel wrote: You know why the new Toxecrene is so terrible? Krak grenades. If a Toxicrene charges a 10 man Tac squad in cover, the Tox would lose 3.33 wounds just to 10 marines with Krak grenades. And that's assuming the Sarge has no power weapon or anything! If the Sarge has a Power Maul (my personal favorite) the Crene takes an even 4 wounds. But wait, what if they have overwatch?
Let's say a Toxicrene charges a 10 man tac squad with a flamer/missile launcher and Power Maul. Assuming 3++ cover, the Toxicrene will take 4.35 wounds before he's even swung. And then hitting back he kills 3-4 Tac marines (3.4 statistically).
This is a Close Combat oriented MC who charges a basic loadout of a standard troop, and LOSES COMBAT. That's assuming NOTHING else targets him (and you can bet such a points sink will take a few shots early, like from said tac squad.)
I genuinely can't fathom who thought a 4+ armor save was a good idea. I don't know how they thought a Space Marine was better armored than this guy. And the most sad, infuriating part is how close this guy was to being cool. SO CLOSE. If they had done one of the following two things, I would buy two of these.
1. change type to Beast, or other 12" move.
2. 3+ armor save and access to biomorphs.
Seriously, if I could just buy it the normal upgrades from the MC uprades I may even think about it. But no Fleet? I mean come on... At least let me spend the points to buy it fleet!
Sigh. I'm done ranting for now, mostly because this popped out of the blue and I still had my hopes up. Plus, that Toxicrene model is honestly pretty sweet. Just don't mention the Maleceptor around me and I'll stay calm...
The same folks that think a Hausperex is a "specialist" for cracking knights.....
I really really like both the models. Very cool chasis and I like that they are very large and unique.. that said
THE RULES SUCK. I WANT to think the toxicrene can see a table but tbh even while it is fairly cheap 40 more points gets you the Dima which is across the board better and has more insta death on a 4+ than just random 6's. It really really saddens me that GW fell this short with rules. The haruspex is a fething joke (I've never seen one and I personally have never been inspired to even try one while I have two exocrines magnetized to be haruspexes as well). It really really saddens me that after the Nids codex release to now it looks like if anything GW has become even MORE detached with it's consumer base.. the dual kit package is excellent.. the models look great.. the rules are not just "ok" they are actively bad. They almost discourage you from buying the models themselves. Vanilla carnifexes are better for less.
Don't even get me started on the maleceptor.. it is nearly incapable of doing damage and costs MORE for some reason nobody can explain.
The same folks that think a Hausperex is a "specialist" for cracking knights.....
Comically, I have actually seen an unsupported Haruspex kill an Imperial Knight before, but only due to the aforementioned Knight having terrible dice (did 3 wounds in 2 rounds of combat with both its destroyer weapon and stomps and one more when it exploded).
jifel wrote: You know why the new Toxecrene is so terrible? Krak grenades. If a Toxicrene charges a 10 man Tac squad in cover, the Tox would lose 3.33 wounds just to 10 marines with Krak grenades. And that's assuming the Sarge has no power weapon or anything! If the Sarge has a Power Maul (my personal favorite) the Crene takes an even 4 wounds. But wait, what if they have overwatch?
Let's say a Toxicrene charges a 10 man tac squad with a flamer/missile launcher and Power Maul. Assuming 3++ cover, the Toxicrene will take 4.35 wounds before he's even swung. And then hitting back he kills 3-4 Tac marines (3.4 statistically).
Might be a bit of a devils advocate, but wouldn't sending it against Tactical Marines be comparable to a Marine throwing Assault Terminators against Gaunts? The thing is basically demanding it be used against things like Centurions, Ogryn, Grotesques, Bikes, Spawn, enemy MCs, and so forth where its attacks are more meaningful. Against Tacticals it is basically the same as any other TMC with toxin sacs.
jifel wrote: I genuinely can't fathom who thought a 4+ armor save was a good idea. I don't know how they thought a Space Marine was better armored than this guy.
I'm guessing it was done with Grav weapons in mind. If a unit of 3 Centurions with Grav-cannons opens fire on the Toxicrene, they should inflict 4-5 wounds on it before saves. In contrast, against an Exocrine or Haruspex the Centurions should do roughly 6-7 wounds before saves. Assuming both units are in some form of area terrain that gives a 5+ cover, the Toxicrene should end up taking 1-2 unsaved wounds while the Exocrine/Haruspex will take about 4 (ruins improve this to 0.84 wounds on the Toxicrene and 3 for the Exocrine/Haruspex).
(the actual justification is probably that the creatures are effectively scaled-up Venomthropes/Zoanthropes, both of which have a 5+ save, but I'd like to think there is a practical design reason for it)
.
iNcontroL wrote: I really really like both the models. Very cool chasis and I like that they are very large and unique.. that said
THE RULES SUCK. I WANT to think the toxicrene can see a table but tbh even while it is fairly cheap 40 more points gets you the Dima which is across the board better and has more insta death on a 4+ than just random 6's. It really really saddens me that GW fell this short with rules. The haruspex is a fething joke (I've never seen one and I personally have never been inspired to even try one while I have two exocrines magnetized to be haruspexes as well). It really really saddens me that after the Nids codex release to now it looks like if anything GW has become even MORE detached with it's consumer base.. the dual kit package is excellent.. the models look great.. the rules are not just "ok" they are actively bad. They almost discourage you from buying the models themselves. Vanilla carnifexes are better for less.
Don't even get me started on the maleceptor.. it is nearly incapable of doing damage and costs MORE for some reason nobody can explain.
This is so true dude they are drawing further and further away from their playerbase thinking pretty models are what we want.
The sad part is, I DO want pretty models. I love the look of the tyranids, it is actually a big part of what drew me to play the army when i first started them in 2009.
That being said, I agree that these rules do not aid in selling these models one bit. Given a choice between the two, the Toxicrene is far and away more "useful" than the Maleceptor. Thankfully for me, it's also the one i think looks better and was going to build anyhow. So that's cool. But as has been stated before, he doesn't do anything that we can't do cheaper and/or better with existing models. Any time i field him it will be in friendly games, and mostly for his appearance because it looks freaking cool.
Tervigons are bad, but I'm sure you know that, so if you are going to run them.... make sure you put eGrubs or at least Shredders on it dude. 10 points. Hull point from something big might be the most damage it does all game. Not to mention raping GEQ.
Damn it! I want my tyranid knight-analogue for Pacific Rim-style games.
Kind of bugs me that despite the 'nidzilla' phrase that's been floating around since 3rd edition, we still can't do a pure monstrous creature army.....
As to the units - Well, the Toxicrene isn't bad. It's going to be utterly lethal to wraithknights and most other monstrous creatures - poisoned 2+, AP2 from smash and the high initiative from lash whips is a nasty combination.
The choking cloud ability is pretty much an incidental bonus, like bio-plasma on carnifex; nice if you get to use it, and hopefully allowing it to cut through big mobs without getting tar-pitted.
The main problem - as people have already noted - is going to be reaching the enemy in the first place. Shrouded and its lower armour save is going to make it a lot less vulnerable to grav-cannons, but even so three centurions will shred one in a single turn of fire if they catch it in the open. That was kind of my issue with the Dimachaeron, really - if it had a 12" move, infiltrate, scout, something.....it might make it to contact without getting shot to snot.
At the same time, T6, multiple wounds and shrouded is a nasty combination if it can be pushed forward with good cover. I would be a lot more hesitant to fight toxicrenes in a cityfight environment, or - as noted - with a skirmish screen of little bugs.
I'm slightly annoyed that it can't take upgrades, or that it doesn't come in broods - but at the same time, I kind of like that - after all, a fearless unit with only one model can largely ignore instinctive behaviour, as 'run at the enemy and try to eat their face' is what you want it to do anyway.
Adrenal glands won't matter if you're throwing it in the centre of a bug swarm - you don't want it outrunning the first rank, and it's not like its strength value really matters in combat
My army list is Tervigon-heavy. It's not the most competitive, I just like the idea of tyranids as this endless tidal wave of chitin. If I could spawn hormagaunts instead of termagants, I'd be all over that, and I keep intending to acquire a load of devourer-armed gaunts for the starting broods, but haven't got around to it.
Will I use them? Not sure. Because I've got a replaceable 'front rank' to hide behind, I've got a pretty sustainable 3+ cover save. On the other hand, the toxicrene really isn't going to achieve much other than draw fire until turn 3, maybe turn 4.
The Malaceptor......I can't help thinking "why not buy two or three zoanthropes instead?"
It's a wierd mix of things. Tough - nearly tervigon tough - but equally incompetent at actually fighting. Its all about the psychic powers, but it's only mastery level 2, which you could achieve with a zoanthrope (or more likely a brood of two if you wanted better durability).
Psychic overload is a focused witchfire. It has two roles - anti-heavy tank (when used on AV14) and as a sort of sniper. One thing that is kind of random is that a failed check is D3 wounds, not one-per-point-you-failed-by; otherwise Shadow in the Warp might make it a half decent psyker assassin, despite the increased odds of deny the witch.
Heavy Support- •Mawloc (140) •Carnifex- TLBLDevs x2, Adrenal Glands (165)
Total- 1500
Fixed point costs and with my adjustments.
This is a really solid list. The Tervigon needs Electro shock grubs or you risk it getting punked by walkers. Also, I think Adrenal Glands are unneeded or work better on the Tervigon,
If it were me I would do the following: - Miasma Cannon (technically it is taking the same slot as Crushing Claws) - AG on Carnifex
+E.Grubs on Tervigon +A.G. on Tervigon +3 Devourers on Gants.
You've also got to acknowledge that you are keeping quite a few points in reserves, and so fishing for the reroll reserves warlord trait should be a priority. If you go up in points, a Bastion with a Comms Relay wouldn't be a bad idea.
Heavy Support-
•Mawloc (140)
•Carnifex- TLBLDevs x2, Adrenal Glands (165)
Total- 1500
Fixed point costs and with my adjustments.
This is a really solid list. The Tervigon needs Electro shock grubs or you risk it getting punked by walkers. Also, I think Adrenal Glands are unneeded or work better on the Tervigon,
If it were me I would do the following:
- Miasma Cannon (technically it is taking the same slot as Crushing Claws) - AG on Carnifex
+E.Grubs on Tervigon
+A.G. on Tervigon
+3 Devourers on Gants.
You've also got to acknowledge that you are keeping quite a few points in reserves, and so fishing for the reroll reserves warlord trait should be a priority. If you go up in points, a Bastion with a Comms Relay wouldn't be a bad idea.
You're right - I just copy/pasted the Miasma Cannon without double checking that.
The AG are needed because the Fex needs Fleet to be useful - especially if you're hitting him with Onslaught.
I agree with dropping the Cannon though - because it's just not that good. eGrubs are better, and you could add Glands and eGrubs for the cost of the Cannon.
The Mawloc and a single Hive Commander unit (potentially) in Reserves isn't *that* bad
Sinful Hero wrote: Tervigon is an MC- it can fire both Grubs and the Cannon if need be. Of course you have Stinger Salvo too.
The issue is you can replace Scything talons with Crushing Claws or you can replace Scything Talons with a Miasma Cannon, but since you've only got one set of Scything talons on a Tervigon you can't take both. I think Crushing Claws are more useful.
Sinful Hero wrote: Tervigon is an MC- it can fire both Grubs and the Cannon if need be. Of course you have Stinger Salvo too.
The issue is you can replace Scything talons with Crushing Claws or you can replace Scything Talons with a Miasma Cannon, but since you've only got one set of Scything talons on a Tervigon you can't take both. I think Crushing Claws are more useful.
It depends on how you run it as well. Is it going to hang back to control an objective- the Miasma Cannon let you reach out and touch someone. If you're running it up the board/outflanking it Crushng Claws might be a better option if you want to open cans.
rigeld2 wrote: The AG are needed because the Fex needs Fleet to be useful - especially if you're hitting him with Onslaught.
You won't always get Onslaught. The Carnifex does his damage in shooting, and he is a relatively fragile platform, so fleet on charges isn't quite as critical to it as to the Tervigon who does most of her damage in Assault.
rigeld2 wrote: The Mawloc and a single Hive Commander unit (potentially) in Reserves isn't *that* bad
How would you like to play a game at a 375 point deficit? It simplifies you opponent target priority and reduces your firepower if they don't arrive until turn 4.
It isn't as bad as some lists. A recent AM/MT opponent was reserving about 1000 points of his 1850 list. I saw him lose 6 consecutive games including 2 against me. In the first he rage quit turn 2 when his reserves didn't come in. In the 2nd Game he rage quite 1/2 through turn 3, when only 1/2 of his reserves arrived turn 2. The most interesting thing was that his list wasn't bad. It just needed a Comms Relay.
Sinful Hero wrote: Tervigon is an MC- it can fire both Grubs and the Cannon if need be. Of course you have Stinger Salvo too.
The issue is you can replace Scything talons with Crushing Claws or you can replace Scything Talons with a Miasma Cannon, but since you've only got one set of Scything talons on a Tervigon you can't take both. I think Crushing Claws are more useful.
It depends on how you run it as well. Is it going to hang back to control an objective- the Miasma Cannon let you reach out and touch someone. If you're running it up the board/outflanking it Crushng Claws might be a better option if you want to open cans.
Definitely. However Verviedi is clearly planning to outflank either the Tervigon or the Termagants as a game-time decision. So, if I were him I would definitely outfit the Tervigon for outflank because most of the time that is the better option than the Gants.
The toxicrene is so laughably bad, I bet if I ran it, it would kill itself (large blast scatters back onto itself... instant death...)
Just reading that awful analysis in WD makes me think they're completely out of touch with reality. When is it ever going to get into combat with a wraithknight. It's a jump MC with two long-range weapons. Here's a new scenario for you: Wraithknight takes its distort weapons, insta-deaths toxicrene from faaaar across the table turn 1. Or, wraithknight continually chips away at toxicrene turn after turn whilst moving further away because y'know it's ACTUALLY GOT SOME LEGS ON IT, UNLIKE ANYTHING IN THE TYRANID CODEX.
Sheesh. It's seriously just slowed bad. Please, please, I really hope they go bust and WotC buys them out so we get some games development that isn't complete gak.
Sinful Hero wrote: Tervigon is an MC- it can fire both Grubs and the Cannon if need be. Of course you have Stinger Salvo too.
The issue is you can replace Scything talons with Crushing Claws or you can replace Scything Talons with a Miasma Cannon, but since you've only got one set of Scything talons on a Tervigon you can't take both. I think Crushing Claws are more useful.
It depends on how you run it as well. Is it going to hang back to control an objective- the Miasma Cannon let you reach out and touch someone. If you're running it up the board/outflanking it Crushng Claws might be a better option if you want to open cans.
Definitely. However Verviedi is clearly planning to outflank either the Tervigon or the Termagants as a game-time decision. So, if I were him I would definitely outfit the Tervigon for outflank because most of the time that is the better option than the Gants.
I agree. If you're going to outflank Egrubs, Crushing Claws, and Stinger Salvo are your best options(to focus exclusively on vehicles anyway).
My army list is Tervigon-heavy. It's not the most competitive, I just like the idea of tyranids as this endless tidal wave of chitin. If I could spawn hormagaunts instead of termagants, I'd be all over that, and I keep intending to acquire a load of devourer-armed gaunts for the starting broods, but haven't got around to it.
The tervigon termagant broods have to be vanilla (fleshborers). Hence another reason why they're cack.
rigeld2 wrote: The AG are needed because the Fex needs Fleet to be useful - especially if you're hitting him with Onslaught.
You won't always get Onslaught. The Carnifex does his damage in shooting, and he is a relatively fragile platform, so fleet on charges isn't quite as critical to it as to the Tervigon who does most of her damage in Assault.
You won't always, but you will often (with all of the rolls you make).
I normally don't have AG on my fexes, but I run 5 at 1500 points (lolfexwall). When I do get the room for them (for whatever reason) I've never regretted them.
rigeld2 wrote: The Mawloc and a single Hive Commander unit (potentially) in Reserves isn't *that* bad
How would you like to play a game at a 375 point deficit? It simplifies you opponent target priority and reduces your firepower if they don't arrive until turn 4.
True, but I don't plan for the extremes. Bad games happen - just like if I am playing, say, Paladinstar with the old GK codex and fail a leadership test turn 1 and run off the board.
Since the list doesn't require the Tervigon or Mawloc to operate it's not the end of the world, it's just difficult.
My army list is Tervigon-heavy. It's not the most competitive, I just like the idea of tyranids as this endless tidal wave of chitin. If I could spawn hormagaunts instead of termagants, I'd be all over that, and I keep intending to acquire a load of devourer-armed gaunts for the starting broods, but haven't got around to it.
The tervigon termagant broods have to be vanilla (fleshborers). Hence another reason why they're cack.
CHEERS GEEDUBS
No, they don't.
Spoiler:
The Scuttling Swarm: For every Termagant Brood of 30 models included in your army, you can include one Tervigon as a troops choice instead of an HQ choice.
As a standalone figure, I admit it's not very playable. Scratch that, unplayable.
But what if it was combined with the Endless Swarm, or large units of Termagants with Devourers? You could have about 60 S4 shots coming out of the ground from no-where and if it is endless swarm, you could recycle those shots when the unit dies.
As a standalone figure, I admit it's not very playable. Scratch that, unplayable.
But what if it was combined with the Endless Swarm, or large units of Termagants with Devourers? You could have about 60 S4 shots coming out of the ground from no-where and if it is endless swarm, you could recycle those shots when the unit dies.
Thoughts on this tactic?
Probably the last remaining use for the Trygon at the moment is exactly this. As models cannot charge after emerging, the prime candidate is a large brood of Devourer Termagants, as they can open fire right away.
Take the Prime upgrade if you like (12 S5 shots can still maim the rear of a vehicle or wipe out a small light infantry unit), and no matter what else a surprise Trygon is still something your opponent is better off dealing than not (just in case it does manage to get into combat with something high-value and poor in CC), but be aggressive with both it and your large broods of Termagants safe in the knowledge that your Termagants can get stuck straight back in.
I was thinking about how to make the Toxicrene viable.
Took a while.
But what if you used a slower, walking list - deathstar-esque - and ran with the Swarmlord, a few Toxicrenes, zoanthropes, dakkafexes...
Swarmlord can buff a Toxicrene with preferred enemy, furious charge or monster hunter, all of which could be of use on the Toxicrene. Psychic powers can (unreliably) give FNP as well... and MOA could come into play in some games.
Sad that he needs so much more to be viable, really. Could be a fun game, but not in a tournament...
The tervigon termagant broods have to be vanilla (fleshborers). Hence another reason why they're cack.
CHEERS GEEDUBS
No, they don't.
Spoiler:
The Scuttling Swarm: For every Termagant Brood of 30 models included in your army, you can include one Tervigon as a troops choice instead of an HQ choice.
I put down an imperial knight and 2 Wraith Knights (killed one, tarpitted the other) with this list the other day.
Trygon is a better match for the speed and deployment options of the Raveners.
Both Malanthrope and Trygon Prime move 6 have move through cover and fleet. Deep striking the Trygon doesn't work great because he is there to support the gants and gargoyles, and deep striking the Raveners is a terrible way to play this list. The Malanthrope can eat challenges for the raveners and Shrikes, and provide shrouded unlike the Trygon, and he gives a preferred enemy bubble. He has regen so eating overwatch is no problem for him. Much better synergy overall.
The dead MC turn one (toxicrene) against Eldar/Dark Eldar/Tau forewarning Grav Marines, guard autocannon spam etc.
Tau Broadsides will one shot it turn one with only needing one marker light or a bursttide, yes I know then it isn't shooting at your FMC but just for the sake of arguement. It has a 4+ it is just toast against that kind of shooting. Cover be damned. A venom, a transport... will do 4 wounds to the toxicrene before cover saves. One venom, one with two heavy splinter cannons, I assume they are till heavy 6 poisoned 4+ AP 4. Wave serpents, Wraithknight, etc will just torch it. It is a hive crone with a little bit better toughness that has no way to mitigate full BS shots.
I do not know what it can kill better than a carnifex. Both will have synapse nodes and some form of cover saves nodes behind them. So the support points are a wash but I have more confidence that a carnifex will actually kill or heck threaten something more than the toxicrene will. That is where my thoughts are on it. Cover is easy to get but it is so easy to ignore by quality shooting.
I keep praying that in the next iteration of the bug book we get something like battle focus for Eldar except it is assault oriented. You can move 6 run with a reroll and then assault for all Tyranids. Would this solve the movement problem...probably not but it would help a lot.
I cannot for the life of me not understand why bugs cannot get a LoW that is a Gargantuan walker.
I put down an imperial knight and 2 Wraith Knights (killed one, tarpitted the other) with this list the other day.
Trygon is a better match for the speed and deployment options of the Raveners.
Both Malanthrope and Trygon Prime move 6 have move through cover and fleet. Deep striking the Trygon doesn't work great because he is there to support the gants and gargoyles, and deep striking the Raveners is a terrible way to play this list. The Malanthrope can eat challenges for the raveners and Shrikes, and provide shrouded unlike the Trygon, and he gives a preferred enemy bubble. He has regen so eating overwatch is no problem for him. Much better synergy overall.
Must have missed a rule on the Malantrhope. I did not think it had fleet, and that matters when keeping up with beasts. In that case, I see your point.
Flyrants are better for Synapse for DS units regardless even if the Dzs was a good idea. He'll outflanking Warriors. He'll absolutely everything including letting them risk a turn of insinctjve behaviour is better than taking a Trygon Prime ~_~
SHUPPET wrote: Tervigons are bad, but I'm sure you know that, so if you are going to run them.... make sure you put eGrubs or at least Shredders on it dude. 10 points. Hull point from something big might be the most damage it does all game. Not to mention raping GEQ.
I'd have to disagree on the tervigon part, but then we've already been down that road before many times. Yes, he is worse than in previous editions, but one can argue that he was OP in the previous editions. Now, he is costed more appropriately for what he can do. It really comes down to how you want to build your list with regards to whether you should take him or not. He can work in a standard TAC Tyranid army.
But I will agree on giving him a thorax weapon and I prefer Egrubs as well.
I posted an update of my list in the "army list" section a while ago, but clearly all the active Tyranid players are located in this thread, so posting it here for some opinions.
As a reminder, I'm going to enter a 1750 tourney in November, which basically allows everything, with the exception of superheavies and Gargantuans from Forge World (regular FW is ok)
I should add that the missions are going to be very objective based, for instance the first one gives you victory points for each turn that you hold your own objective. So I might need a solid objective holder as well. With that in mind, the following list:
-- CAD Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
The idea being that the Tfex holds my objective, while keeping in range of the Malanthrope of course, while the Flyrants and Mawlocs try to push my opponent off his own objective. I'm considering hiding the Shrikes near my own objective to deal with tough troops coming to contest it. One more consideration is adding a Aegis Defense Line to protect my own objective, but since the objective in my deployment zone will be placed by my opponent, I'm not sure about the timing. Do you get to place your fortification Before or After the objectives?
but seriously it's great to see that other Nid players use similar tactics, as I've really only got one or two in my local group. I really think stuff like this is what should be frequently expounded upon in this thread (though different uses and synergies for various units is huge as well, which is what I feel takes up the bulk of this thread). But for the newer players, as well as people who play more for fun, it's great to have resources available to bring their game to the next level by knowing and understanding different approaches, whether it's how to use MOA (which I feel is SO IMPORTANT for Nids in particular) or how to learn the way of the water warrior (great name by the way jy2!)
It looks like they want to send Nids into a Toxic/Psyho direction, can't say I am opposed. 
