jy2 wrote: What type of tournaments do they run? Single CAD + allies? Self-allying allowed? Double-CAD? Whichever, maximize on the number of Dakka Flyrants (Winged Tyrants with 2x Brainleech Devourers and Electroshock Grubs) that is allowed. Bring 3 if self-allying is allowed. Bring 4 if double-CAD. Flyrants are our most consistent performers and also our most flexible. You can't go wrong with them. If you've got the points, then also bring a formation like Living Artillery. I personally like Skyblight but it is a large investment in points (800+ pts). Also bring at least 1 venomthrope (or if FW is allowed, bring the even better malanthrope instead). Finally, it can't hurt to bring shooty units like the dakkafex.
Here are 2 keywords that I follow when I build my lists - MOBILE FIREPOWER. If it's mobile or if it's got good firepower, then you can't lose. If it's got BOTH mobility AND firepower, then it's a winner.
TCO caved in, and allowed self-allying for everyone, on tyranid pressure. No double-CAD, only 1 ally, OR 1 formation.
Either with self-ally, or with Skyblight, 3rd flyrant is already in. I had success with 2 more zoa (feeding WC for tyrants powers) and 1x2 venoms, switching the venoms to malanthrope next month when they allow FW finally.
My problem is, that dakkafexes are not mobile. Also tried t-fex (acid+shredder), had some fun moments with the torrent, but also not mobile.
Exocrine barely survives turn 1 on average.
Harpy and Crone are mobile, but after a jink... no firepower. Should I bring only 1 Crone to VS?
Do we have anything in between?
Both the dakkafex and the t-fex are decent choices. If you can get Onslaught, then your dakkafexes will be somewhat mobile. However, even without high mobility, the dakkafex is still good. Why? Because it is a dual-purpose unit, and any unit that is multi-purposed is a good unit in my books. The dakkafex provides good shooting. He is also a threat to heavy armor as the only S9 unit in the book that doesn't need to smash. That is why so many people use him. Tyranids don't have a lot of answers against heavy armor other than electroshock grubs, haywire guards and carnifexes (and haywire hive guards aren't that good anymore).
The Acid Spray T-fex and make for a good bullet magnet, but I don't recommend ever running more than 1 in the army.
Crones are not as good as they used to be. However, they still serve a purpose as a support unit specialized against other flyers. So if you see a lot of flyers (or open-topped transports) in your locale, you may want to consider the crone. Otherwise, he is optional in a Take-All-Comer's bug list. Personally for me, I don't run the crone unless I am running Skyblight. Instead, I go for gargoyles in my standard list.
2 more units you can consider are biovores and the mawloc. Both are outstanding units that deserve a spot in any Tyranid TAC's list. You're also more likely to find biovores nowadays in the Living Artillery formation.
NightWrench wrote: I am curious to see how the loss of the baron impacts the meta. How many eldar lists had the baron a 5 man kalabite squad and the beast pack. Death stars with out hit and run can be tar pitted by our little gibblers.
I have been playing bugs since 94 and after a few years away I am coming back to my 40k roots.
A quick question. Can a core of two fly rants 4 dakka flexes and two ripper swarms be competitive? The meta I am playing in for next few months allows no forgeworld no formations or strongpoint/escalation. Basically only the CAD is valid. Will my core have a chance? Not sure what to fill it out with besides a venomthrope.
I know. I harped on Reece at Nova about it I told him if he's going to outlaw CtA he should outlaw BB as well
It's really, really solid to mix Nid FMC's with Daemon Summoning. So good. Also having played them together I understand fully why Nids were the only book not to get access to Daemonology.
It's a good core, though I like to use lots of Troops, so I would add some. (To screen the big Bugs if nothing else)
Hulk would you do LOC and 11 horrors or multiple horror units or keep it cheap and do an LOC and min unit of nurglings?
SHUPPET wrote: Harpy I do think is maybe the better of the two... but I don't know, neither of them seem to be focused enough to actually make back their cost in points... and the fact that we CAN take so much better pinning that Harpys makes them hard to justify for me...
For me, the main selling point for the Harpy has generally been its sonic scream ability as an "enabler" for Carnifexes. Most walkers (including knights) and monsters rely on their superior initiative to survive against Carnifexes. You take that away, and they are little more than a heap of scrap waiting to be looted by a passing Grot. For example, if you charge an Imperial Knight with a pair of Carnifexes, odds are they will do maybe a hull point or two from their HoW and then die before they can swing. If you throw a Harpy in the mix, they will do an average of 4.5 hull points before factoring in any explosion results and ignoring any strength boosts (I'm assuming said Fexes are of the common dakka variety - melee fexes or fexes with AGs fair better).
The crones however are even worse, they would fit fine with Living Artillery builds if they did their job a bit better, they were never top notch but now they are alot worse and have no real place in any TAC lists imo unless specifically tailoring against certain builds, they won't ever be close to worthwhile the points investment unless your opponent dedicates all firepower their way instead of at Flyrants (stupidly) and you get to jink it off all game.
This one is really hard for me to argue, because on one hand I fully agree they lost almost all of their anti-ground capabilities which drastically reduced their generalist capability but on the other hand they are still good at their intended role of air superiority (especially against other FMC). They are cheaper than the vast majority of air-to-air fliers in the game (Stormtalon being the only real completion for cheapness) and are arguably more competent at the job since they always have the option of the second turn advantage (go first = fly off table | go second = reserve them like any other interceptor) and their AA functions aren't hindered significantly by using their jink since most of the damage will be through vector strikes with the odd tentaclid thrown in to finish the job.
I don't know. I guess it again depends heavily on what the rest of the list looks like and how many Tyrants you are running. A list with 3-4 Tyrants probably doesn't really need the Hive Crones since that should prove enough AA for most competitive events, but a list with say 2 Tyrants could benefit from the addition of a Crone or two to provide air cover while the Tyrants focus on light armor and infantry.
Yeah, I agree that Sonic Scream is the deciding trait of the Harpy, to even getting close to justifying taking a Harpy you need to be able to put the screech to good use. That being said, thanks the assault nerfs its still much less reliable than it should be, and kinda sucks trying to get it into combat, while at best massively telegraphing your plan for the next turn, not to mention all they have to do is hug cover and as a result they will still hit back in CC at the same time as you since frags aren't readily available to our army. On top of that, as I said, it just doesn't really have its place in a COMPETITIVE lists even tho you can find a use for it making your Genestealers or Carnifexes whatever
And yeh, as I said Crones can be used for pretty specific match ups, but in TAC i think 9 games out of 10 there is something that would have done whatever they did except better
I feel like me and you are on the same page with these two, I'm maybe a little more skeptical of their performance but I think you have quite clearly recognised the impact that the changes have had very cohorently.
I can see the argument that they are still useable (this isn't directed at you btw Strat), but I can't see the argument that they didn't get worse this edition just because they received a positive change amongst all the negative, if people are saying this then I feel like it's too much denial to even bother having a sensible debate lol
I use crones more or less how I used tfexes. It's just a longer range tfex, close to the same durability. Same xenos roasting, haywire missiles instead of egrubs (rather have the grubs), neither is great in assault but can smash in a pinch, and crone has bonus of great VS against other FMC.
It's output is seriously dented but it's far from useless.
gigasnail wrote: I use crones more or less how I used tfexes. It's just a longer range tfex, close to the same durability. Same xenos roasting, haywire missiles instead of egrubs (rather have the grubs), neither is great in assault but can smash in a pinch, and crone has bonus of great VS against other FMC.
It's output is seriously dented but it's far from useless.
This is 100% true for me as well. Crone = more mobile TFex with Vector strike. Because of the proliferation of MSU builds in my meta, being able to Vector Strike and then flame different targets is pretty valuable.
gigasnail wrote: I use crones more or less how I used tfexes. It's just a longer range tfex, close to the same durability. Same xenos roasting, haywire missiles instead of egrubs (rather have the grubs), neither is great in assault but can smash in a pinch, and crone has bonus of great VS against other FMC.
It's output is seriously dented but it's far from useless.
This is 100% true for me as well. Crone = more mobile TFex with Vector strike. Because of the proliferation of MSU builds in my meta, being able to Vector Strike and then flame different targets is pretty valuable.
Word, one reason I can still use my "Winged Assassin" Tyrant is because VS, Thorax Hive, is a 'bread and butter" move for me.
gigasnail wrote: I use crones more or less how I used tfexes. It's just a longer range tfex, close to the same durability. Same xenos roasting, haywire missiles instead of egrubs (rather have the grubs), neither is great in assault but can smash in a pinch, and crone has bonus of great VS against other FMC.
It's output is seriously dented but it's far from useless.
This is 100% true for me as well. Crone = more mobile TFex with Vector strike. Because of the proliferation of MSU builds in my meta, being able to Vector Strike and then flame different targets is pretty valuable.
Word, one reason I can still use my "Winged Assassin" Tyrant is because VS, Thorax Hive, is a 'bread and butter" move for me.
So you fly for a turn, then land for a turn, then charge turn 3?
1) isn't it hard to find something to vector strike on turn 1?
2) Why not try for a turn 2 charge?
Guys I need a bit of advice on Harpy VS Crone.
I picked up one of the kits but havent assembled it yet as either.
Which should I go for? I have 2 flyrants as it stands but no other air support/units.
Meta = anything and everything really.
gigasnail wrote: I use crones more or less how I used tfexes. It's just a longer range tfex, close to the same durability. Same xenos roasting, haywire missiles instead of egrubs (rather have the grubs), neither is great in assault but can smash in a pinch, and crone has bonus of great VS against other FMC.
It's output is seriously dented but it's far from useless.
This is 100% true for me as well. Crone = more mobile TFex with Vector strike. Because of the proliferation of MSU builds in my meta, being able to Vector Strike and then flame different targets is pretty valuable.
Word, one reason I can still use my "Winged Assassin" Tyrant is because VS, Thorax Hive, is a 'bread and butter" move for me.
So you fly for a turn, then land for a turn, then charge turn 3?
1) isn't it hard to find something to vector strike on turn 1?
2) Why not try for a turn 2 charge?
I didn't say it was super awesome. But it does let me "do stuff" just fine, and if it come up, I gots a Bonesword,and lash whip with somebodies name on it. These days I see no reason to Fly, I just look to hide some place, and Jink if I must. Shrouding makes for a fairly durable Big Bug, and if I eat an Alpha Strike, the rest of the Hive is intact.
To be honest, I consider my "best" "strategy" to be talking up how Awesome! and Deadly my Tyranofex is. And if it gets ignored, I try to educate the fool.
And just because it's hard to do, does not make it impossible...I always seem to find Something to VS...Drop pods come to mind real quick. Against a gunline, I usually pack twin Mawlocs., so I'm good.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ratius wrote: Guys I need a bit of advice on Harpy VS Crone.
I picked up one of the kits but havent assembled it yet as either.
Which should I go for? I have 2 flyrants as it stands but no other air support/units.
Meta = anything and everything really.
I have a total non-answer...magnets! That way you have Both. If not it depends...knowing nothing, I'd say the Crone is more likely to be useful...
In that case...well I believe you'll get more use out of a Crone. I like Vector Strike, and Template. And the Haywire is just too good, we have so few ways to deal with good armor.
Ratius wrote: Guys I need a bit of advice on Harpy VS Crone.
I picked up one of the kits but havent assembled it yet as either.
Which should I go for? I have 2 flyrants as it stands but no other air support/units.
Meta = anything and everything really.
In general, people tend to find the crone slightly more useful. The ability to vector-strike and then flame is a very good tool and its haywire shots are useful against heavy armor, something the tyranids often have trouble dealing with. Moreover, it is much better against enemy flyers, something the harpy struggles against.
As I am getting back into playing 40k and not just theory crafting and tactics for friends who have been playing (finally have time to paint and play again). Back to the roots of bugs, first army back in 94. I am old...anyway
Where I am playing is not allowing any formations other than the CAD out of the main book and they are allowing the allies matrix only books that are in print so no data slates either oh and no forgeworld...
My question is am I trying to dip into two many components and not just concentrating enough on bugzilla?
HQ Flyrant twin link dev, thorax
Flyrant twin link dev, thorax
Venomthrope
Rippers with DS Rippers with DS
Carni brood x2 with dev Carni brood x2 with dev
That is 1170. I want to have a 1500 list and a 1750 list That is what I want to do for my core.
Thoughts..
Drop a ripper swawm add gaunts and Tervigon. With the 60 points left over I am thinking crushing claws on tervigon and upgrades to devilgaunts
At 1750 I would add a Mawloc and the swarm back and finally gargoyles or add a third flyrant and move the ripper swam to his troop choice.
I own all of this but the tervigon and I am not against buying it.
Any help would be appreciated. Oh my other thought thanks to HulkSmash is...
GUOML 3
horrors x11
DPML 3 of nurgle with greater to get the ID weapon for annoying MC.
I own all kinds of hounds and deamonettes to summon...
NightWrench wrote: As I am getting back into playing 40k and not just theory crafting and tactics for friends who have been playing (finally have time to paint and play again). Back to the roots of bugs, first army back in 94. I am old...anyway
Where I am playing is not allowing any formations other than the CAD out of the main book and they are allowing the allies matrix only books that are in print so no data slates either oh and no forgeworld...
My question is am I trying to dip into two many components and not just concentrating enough on bugzilla?
Spoiler:
HQ Flyrant twin link dev, thorax
Flyrant twin link dev, thorax
Venomthrope
Rippers with DS Rippers with DS
Carni brood x2 with dev Carni brood x2 with dev
That is 1170. I want to have a 1500 list and a 1750 list That is what I want to do for my core.
Thoughts..
Drop a ripper swawm add gaunts and Tervigon. With the 60 points left over I am thinking crushing claws on tervigon and upgrades to devilgaunts
At 1750 I would add a Mawloc and the swarm back and finally gargoyles or add a third flyrant and move the ripper swam to his troop choice.
I own all of this but the tervigon and I am not against buying it.
Any help would be appreciated. Oh my other thought thanks to HulkSmash is...
GUOML 3
horrors x11
DPML 3 of nurgle with greater to get the ID weapon for annoying MC.
I own all kinds of hounds and deamonettes to summon...
That is about 600 points for that.
You need a zoenthrope or probably 2. You can't let the Carnifexes get out of synapse or they only get to shoot 1/2 of the time, and Flyrants are enough Synapse, because they are too powerful to have to baby sit, and their movement restrictions when flying make it difficult.
Agreed with Tag. You need Synapse to anchor down your carnifexes. Or you may want to run 3 units of 1 dakkafex each and 1-2 zoans and then throw in your Daemon summoning allies.
Flyrants say Thorax next to them, can't imagine that meanin anything other than eGrubs
You need more Synapse as said, Zoanthropes good for this list, as is replacing the troops with 3man Warrior squads incl/ Stranglethorn Cannon. From there, the world is your oyster as you have the core of a very good list, and there is a lot of options open for that last Heavy slot. I'd recommend Biovores, and from there the Living Artillery formation to open that HS slot back up and give you another choice.
Ratius wrote: Guys I need a bit of advice on Harpy VS Crone.
I picked up one of the kits but havent assembled it yet as either.
Which should I go for? I have 2 flyrants as it stands but no other air support/units.
Meta = anything and everything really.
I was having a similar debate, and have recently decided on a crone.
I'm going to go with a crone as it seems more TAC and more useful than the Harpy overall.
Main thing that did it for me though was that I don't like the way the Harpy looks with the two guns... I much rather the the crone with the tentaclids hanging onto the wings and the "spit stuff out the mouth" cannon... just feels more organic, alien and Tyranid to me
Anyway, can always use a crone model as "counts as" harpy if I wanted to give it a run.
I've got a tournament coming up and I have some Formation questions:
1.) Deathleaper assasin brood in Eternal war missions - is this an effective formation to use? I've written a list ( see link)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/617270.page and believe it could work well however I have not run it just yet. I've used LAN and it's great but I'd like to try something a little different.
2.) If I take the formation can Deathleaper be my warlord? I want him as my warlord, purely to survive and allow me to be more aggressive with 2 the two Flyrants. ( I'm restricted to one CAD only and no allies)
Wilson wrote: I've got a tournament coming up and I have some Formation questions:
1.) Deathleaper assasin brood in Eternal war missions - is this an effective formation to use? I've written a list ( see link)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/617270.page and believe it could work well however I have not run it just yet. I've used LAN and it's great but I'd like to try something a little different.
2.) If I take the formation can Deathleaper be my warlord? I want him as my warlord, purely to survive and allow me to be more aggressive with 2 the two Flyrants. ( I'm restricted to one CAD only and no allies)
1. It could be. You use them to put more targets on the table that the opponent needs to deal with. Also put them near objectives and ruins (obviously for cover). If your missions have a Maelstrom component, then this formation can be very good. I see them used more to throw the opponent off and to distract them rather than actually hoping to do a lot of damage.
2. No. Your Warlord has to come from your Primary Detachment unless you are running an army consisting only of formations.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: Flyrants say Thorax next to them, can't imagine that meanin anything other than eGrubs
If the thorax weapon is egrubs, then my bad. Don't have my book with me. If not, then my advice stands - take egrubs on your flyrants over any other thorax weapons.
Wilson wrote: I've got a tournament coming up and I have some Formation questions:
2.) If I take the formation can Deathleaper be my warlord? I want him as my warlord, purely to survive and allow me to be more aggressive with 2 the two Flyrants. ( I'm restricted to one CAD only and no allies)
2. No. Your Warlord has to come from your Primary Detachment unless you are running an army consisting only of formations.
frick! well, i've just blown £65 on 5 more lictors... why can't nids just self ally like Marines...god dammit.
P.S thank you brother for your very swift response!
Wilson wrote: I've got a tournament coming up and I have some Formation questions:
2.) If I take the formation can Deathleaper be my warlord? I want him as my warlord, purely to survive and allow me to be more aggressive with 2 the two Flyrants. ( I'm restricted to one CAD only and no allies)
2. No. Your Warlord has to come from your Primary Detachment unless you are running an army consisting only of formations.
frick! well, i've just blown £65 on 5 more lictors... why can't nids just self ally like Marines...god dammit.
P.S thank you brother for your very swift response!
Maybe use Deathleaper as your Warlord in a CAD then, and use your five Lictors as a Forest Brood?
They are a really underestimated unit. They hit like a truck, come with assault grenades, have moderate pin-point shooting when you place them (ideal for damaging artillery or lone units), and are prime candidates for the "go to ground/fly a Tyrant over to them, then charge" strategy.
Wilson wrote: I've got a tournament coming up and I have some Formation questions:
2.) If I take the formation can Deathleaper be my warlord? I want him as my warlord, purely to survive and allow me to be more aggressive with 2 the two Flyrants. ( I'm restricted to one CAD only and no allies)
2. No. Your Warlord has to come from your Primary Detachment unless you are running an army consisting only of formations.
frick! well, i've just blown £65 on 5 more lictors... why can't nids just self ally like Marines...god dammit.
P.S thank you brother for your very swift response!
Maybe use Deathleaper as your Warlord in a CAD then, and use your five Lictors as a Forest Brood?
They are a really underestimated unit. They hit like a truck, come with assault grenades, have moderate pin-point shooting when you place them (ideal for damaging artillery or lone units), and are prime candidates for the "go to ground/fly a Tyrant over to them, then charge" strategy.
I'll have a look at the Forest brood but a 250 pt unit that has a 5+ save is frighteningly bad. It'd leave a severe sting in my ass if it where to just vanish after a single round of bolt gun fire...
the reason I don't take death leaper as my warlord is because I'm one of those people who takes 2 Flyrants.
I found myself contemplating the Subterranean Swarm today. The Trygon Prime is overcosted, as is the Trygon, but I think the formation might be a good 'fun' choice. Here's why:
1. One reserve roll for 18 T6 wounds and 3 broods of Raveners (Of whatever size you want).
2. Scatter-free Raveners... that don't have to follow normal DS rules. They are placed by the owning player 'within 6"' of the Trygon Prime.
3. The Mawloc and Trygon can go wherever you like - not limited to the Formation's deployment location.
I'm thinking of running 2 broods of 6, and one of 9. The 9 'naked' raveners would shield the Rending Claw Raveners in the rearmost (closest to the Prime) broods.
Sounds fun but ever since the nerf to smash, I think trygons are best left alone. Not like they were really good to begin with anyway.
I like the theme of the army though, raveners are a fun unit to play so I wish you best of luck if you go this route.
Thinking of running a flyrant, 40 gargoyles, and some hormagaunts as well - not brutally effective, but likely quite a surprise to some.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The deep strike manipulation is the real winner for me. Especially if the gargoyles show up at the same time as the Formation.
2.) If I take the formation can Deathleaper be my warlord? I want him as my warlord, purely to survive and allow me to be more aggressive with 2 the two Flyrants. ( I'm restricted to one CAD only and no allies)
2. No. Your Warlord has to come from your Primary Detachment unless you are running an army consisting only of formations.
I don't see were the CAD has to be Primary, just that your Primary is were the Warlord is, and no other rules to say that the formations Character can't be a Warlord. Only Allies Detachment is prevented from having the Warlord. So I would say yes the Formation Deathleaper could be the Warlord.
2.) If I take the formation can Deathleaper be my warlord? I want him as my warlord, purely to survive and allow me to be more aggressive with 2 the two Flyrants. ( I'm restricted to one CAD only and no allies)
2. No. Your Warlord has to come from your Primary Detachment unless you are running an army consisting only of formations.
I don't see were the CAD has to be Primary, just that your Primary is were the Warlord is, and no other rules to say that the formations Character can't be a Warlord. Only Allies Detachment is prevented from having the Warlord. So I would say yes the Formation Deathleaper could be the Warlord.
2.) If I take the formation can Deathleaper be my warlord? I want him as my warlord, purely to survive and allow me to be more aggressive with 2 the two Flyrants. ( I'm restricted to one CAD only and no allies)
2. No. Your Warlord has to come from your Primary Detachment unless you are running an army consisting only of formations.
I don't see were the CAD has to be Primary, just that your Primary is were the Warlord is, and no other rules to say that the formations Character can't be a Warlord. Only Allies Detachment is prevented from having the Warlord. So I would say yes the Formation Deathleaper could be the Warlord.
After re-reading the rules, yes, I would have to agree.
So yes, you can make the Deathleaper to be the Warlord.
It appears the only downside is that he doesn't get the Ideal Mission Commander Command Benefits (in other words, he doesn't get to re-roll his Warlord Trait).
2.) If I take the formation can Deathleaper be my warlord? I want him as my warlord, purely to survive and allow me to be more aggressive with 2 the two Flyrants. ( I'm restricted to one CAD only and no allies)
2. No. Your Warlord has to come from your Primary Detachment unless you are running an army consisting only of formations.
I don't see were the CAD has to be Primary, just that your Primary is were the Warlord is, and no other rules to say that the formations Character can't be a Warlord. Only Allies Detachment is prevented from having the Warlord. So I would say yes the Formation Deathleaper could be the Warlord.
After re-reading the rules, yes, I would have to agree.
So yes, you can make the Deathleaper to be the Warlord.
It appears the only downside is that he doesn't get the Ideal Mission Commander Command Benefits (in other words, he doesn't get to re-roll his Warlord Trait).
But troops from a CAD keep OS.
Besides, deathleaper has a fixed warlord trait anway so it doesn't really affect him in anyway.
Current list has 5 Nid FMC's and 1 Daemon FMC. Not quite up to the 8 to 9 I can get with pure Nids but I think it's solid.
It's really, really solid to mix Nid FMC's with Daemon Summoning. So good. Also having played them together I understand fully why Nids were the only book not to get access to Daemonology.
In my list I actually do a Keeper of Secrets naked at level 3, 13 horrors, and a Slaanesh DP naked w/only wings, one greater gift (for whip), and level 3.
Gives me 3 summoning platforms, an extra almost flyrant, and a solid number of WC's. Combined with Nids ability to take single unit WC2 Zoan's for 50pts I'm sitting between 16 and 18 WC in my standard lists.
I merged two posts, seems you have two different lists (one with Keeper/DP, one with just one Daemon flyer).
16-18 wc means ~3 summoning spells per turn at the cost of all other spells. And since you'll chuck around 6 dice on each attempt you're likely to miscast - a lot. I faced a Slaanesh Daemon list with my Nids in a tourny last weekend. He miscasted a lot, trying to summon stuff at WC3. Other than that, wouldn't your list lack a bit of damage output? Two Flyrants and perhaps whip Keeper are solid, rest of the flyers a bit situational (assuming Crones), and ground units just trying to survive?
Current list has 5 Nid FMC's and 1 Daemon FMC. Not quite up to the 8 to 9 I can get with pure Nids but I think it's solid.
It's really, really solid to mix Nid FMC's with Daemon Summoning. So good. Also having played them together I understand fully why Nids were the only book not to get access to Daemonology.
In my list I actually do a Keeper of Secrets naked at level 3, 13 horrors, and a Slaanesh DP naked w/only wings, one greater gift (for whip), and level 3.
Gives me 3 summoning platforms, an extra almost flyrant, and a solid number of WC's. Combined with Nids ability to take single unit WC2 Zoan's for 50pts I'm sitting between 16 and 18 WC in my standard lists.
I merged two posts, seems you have two different lists (one with Keeper/DP, one with just one Daemon flyer).
16-18 wc means ~3 summoning spells per turn at the cost of all other spells. And since you'll chuck around 6 dice on each attempt you're likely to miscast - a lot. I faced a Slaanesh Daemon list with my Nids in a tourny last weekend. He miscasted a lot, trying to summon stuff at WC3. Other than that, wouldn't your list lack a bit of damage output? Two Flyrants and perhaps whip Keeper are solid, rest of the flyers a bit situational (assuming Crones), and ground units just trying to survive?
@jy2
For the life of me I could not remember that is was called eGrubs and pulling out the iPad to check at work would have been awkward.
@N.I.B
I would hope for two summons a turn and let the big bugs still do a lot of the heavy lifting. I don't know when I will get to try it out as my game I lined up next week is only 1500 and I don't want to run 600 points of demons at that level.
SHUPPET wrote: Flyrants say Thorax next to them, can't imagine that meanin anything other than eGrubs
You need more Synapse as said, Zoanthropes good for this list, as is replacing the troops with 3man Warrior squads incl/ Stranglethorn Cannon. From there, the world is your oyster as you have the core of a very good list, and there is a lot of options open for that last Heavy slot. I'd recommend Biovores, and from there the Living Artillery formation to open that HS slot back up and give you another choice.
@SHUPPET
For the time being I can't use formations in the local tournaments and I do not have a Exocrine yet and my biovores are the old ones from 1993 . But yes long term I want to run the Living artillery node.
Thank you for all of the feedback and suggestions. I will do a bat rep to share. Still trying to learn.
Current list has 5 Nid FMC's and 1 Daemon FMC. Not quite up to the 8 to 9 I can get with pure Nids but I think it's solid.
It's really, really solid to mix Nid FMC's with Daemon Summoning. So good. Also having played them together I understand fully why Nids were the only book not to get access to Daemonology.
In my list I actually do a Keeper of Secrets naked at level 3, 13 horrors, and a Slaanesh DP naked w/only wings, one greater gift (for whip), and level 3.
Gives me 3 summoning platforms, an extra almost flyrant, and a solid number of WC's. Combined with Nids ability to take single unit WC2 Zoan's for 50pts I'm sitting between 16 and 18 WC in my standard lists.
I merged two posts, seems you have two different lists (one with Keeper/DP, one with just one Daemon flyer).
16-18 wc means ~3 summoning spells per turn at the cost of all other spells. And since you'll chuck around 6 dice on each attempt you're likely to miscast - a lot. I faced a Slaanesh Daemon list with my Nids in a tourny last weekend. He miscasted a lot, trying to summon stuff at WC3. Other than that, wouldn't your list lack a bit of damage output? Two Flyrants and perhaps whip Keeper are solid, rest of the flyers a bit situational (assuming Crones), and ground units just trying to survive?
Current list runs the KoS and DP with 2 flyrants and 2-3 crones. Also have screamers (3 with 3 crones, 9 with 2) . Majority of the heavy lifting is done by the prince and flyrants. I generally go for 2 unit summonings and a herald. The rest goes to other offensive or defensive powers. That 18 WC gives me the ability to do that.
Just had a crazy game against Mr. Geoff "InControl" Robinson. He brought his nids and I brought Necrons. Geoff ran:
3x Flyrants w/Egrubs
Malanthrope
Zoanthrope
3x3 Ripper Swarms - Deepstrike
Dimachaeron
Barbed Hierodule
So I assaulted Barbie with 2 of my bargelords. He fails his Mindshackles and punches himself for 3 Wounds. I then hit and wound 4 times. However, that bastard then make 3 FNP saves! Finally, it comes down to his stomps....and he rolls a !!! Both bargelords go down and neither gets back up, even with ResOrbs! OMFG!!!
Barbie manages to survive the entire game (though only with 1W left) whereas everything else (except a couple of scarab units) got annihilated. But that was good enough for Tyranids to win it on 6. Had game ended on 5, I would have won. Had it ended on 7, most likely I would have won.
MVP for the bugs was definitely his Barbed Hierodule. That guy killed 2 bargelords, killed (or helped to kill by removing the quantum shielding of) 2-3 annihilation barges and 1 unit of warriors. And he survived to the very end.
jy2 wrote: Just had a crazy game against Mr. Geoff "InControl" Robinson. He brought his nids and I brought Necrons. Geoff ran:
3x Flyrants w/Egrubs
Malanthrope
Zoanthrope
3x3 Ripper Swarms - Deepstrike
Dimachaeron
Barbed Hierodule
So I assaulted Barbie with 2 of my bargelords. He fails his Mindshackles and punches himself for 3 Wounds. I then hit and wound 4 times. However, that bastard then make 3 FNP saves! Finally, it comes down to his stomps....and he rolls a !!! Both bargelords go down and neither gets back up, even with ResOrbs! OMFG!!!
Barbie manages to survive the entire game (though only with 1W left) whereas everything else (except a couple of scarab units) got annihilated. But that was good enough for Tyranids to win it on 6. Had game ended on 5, I would have won. Had it ended on 7, most likely I would have won.
MVP for the bugs was definitely his Barbed Hierodule. That guy killed 2 bargelords, killed (or helped to kill by removing the quantum shielding of) 2-3 annihilation barges and 1 unit of warriors. And he survived to the very end.
What?! Could of sworn the Barbed Hierodule isn't a competitive choice! Haha that really makes me want to get one now
Iechine wrote: If the Trygon's bioshock shooting attack actually had Haywire, would everyone take him/would he be worth the points?
Not only would he be undercosted with 6 haywire shots, but you'll see basically everyone running 3 of them.
Thing is that the Tyranids are developing a steady theme for electrical haywire attacks, and the Trygon's attack has always been an electrical blast. Haywire makes perfect sense for it. The solution to note making it ridiculously overpowered would be to basically turn it into Egrubs I guess. The Prime's version would need something extra (twin-linked?) to differentiate it from the regular version.
Carnifex Bioplasma would suddenly be a lot more viable if it were a template attack as well I think.
Iechine wrote: If the Trygon's bioshock shooting attack actually had Haywire, would everyone take him/would he be worth the points?
That would likely make the difference. I love Big Wormy (and plain jane Wormy) but currently, they just cost too much. That would put them back into the "AV answer" box.
Got a babysitter finally and had a 2500pt game with the wife at the FLGS today. I brought an extremely unfriendly list however:
Hierophant had the bioplasma torrent, and I can see why hellstorm templates like that are not tournament legal. Invisibility protected a number of her ground troops but both Wraithknights were near dead/near dead by the end of turn 2, her avatar was tarpitted and all 4 tyrants were doing fine. We called it at the end of 3 which was fine, we went and had an awesome dinner.
The Hierophant is SUCH an awesome model, and I really like how it plays even at 1030pts.
On a different note, does anyone have any experience against the new Dark Eldar? I don't have the codex yet and have only heard some stuff about them. How do you think we will fare against the new DE? What will probably be their new competitive build (or competitive units)? Will we continue to have trouble against them, or have they become slightly easier for us to deal with?
Appreciate in advance the input. Let's go beat some dark space elves!
jy2 wrote: On a different note, does anyone have any experience against the new Dark Eldar? I don't have the codex yet and have only heard some stuff about them. How do you think we will fare against the new DE? What will probably be their new competitive build (or competitive units)? Will we continue to have trouble against them, or have they become slightly easier for us to deal with?
Appreciate in advance the input. Let's go beat some dark space elves!
I've seen them in action twice now, but haven't played against them myself. There was something of a line around the only player brave enough to try to play the codex on Saturday, and I wasn't being pushy.
The most notable change is the loss of the Baron. He blows up some common builds. My instinct is that they are initially easier to deal with if they are playing pure Dark Eldar, but it also looks like there is going to be quite a few new exploits for Eldar in the Dark Eldar book.
In the particular games I watched, the Talos was exceeding everybody's expectations. S7 T7 3+ armor with FNP (usually a 4+). You can take them in broods of 3. They are cheaper than a Carnifex with less shooting. Raiders were under performing big time, but I don't know if that was changes in the codex or just bad dice rolls.
I will report back once I've got a chance to play against them.
I think the buff to flyrant survivability and decrease in carnifex cost are the two biggest factors. Overall a venomspam army barely changed, so that match up is still rough. I think a shift to coven armies will benefit us greatly.
It seems like Scourges and Reavers will be more common, and maybe Mandrakes. With the new Webway Portal giving no-scatter deepstrike there will be plenty of shenanigans going on. I don't think anything else will change much- Ravagers are probably still the best HS option, but Pain Engines may become the new a Golden child. The flyers seem a bit overcosted so far, so don't expect too many probably. You can always browse the new tactics thread to see everyone's initial impressions-
Actually, the new AT that everyone is talking about running is Scourges for Haywire - so as far as TAC lists go, the unpopularity of Lances helps us vastly. Aside from that, I believe Blasterborn got cheaper, but Wyches got nerfed, although not in a way that helps us however it will make them far less popular meaning no more permatarpits. I'd say all in all we benefit from these changes against a TAC list, but if someone was to build to kill Nids they could probably do it a bit better with Reavers and Blasterborn, but not significantly so.
Talos don't seem to be really that much better, especially since they can't benefit from a WWP...
SHUPPET, I think the Dark Eldar vets in the Tactica are discussing whether Lance or Haywire are more effective in the current format - I myself lean towards Haywire.
The Talos is looking to be a great heavy support choice, T7 with 3+ and FNP on turn 1 is going to be very durable, completely immune to Gribblies and needed 5's to Wound from everything else, except Carnifexes, Dimachaeron and Warp Lance. Couple that with 5 S7 AP2 attacks on the charge with a Twin-Linked splinter cannon (so 42 inch range) and in can put the hurt on monstrous creatures quite quickly (especially with WS5 and I4). Fearless too, all for 120 points - it's only real draw back is 3 Wounds but still it's going to take a lot to take it down.
Apparently there is a formation that lets IC join Talos, can't remember it but they get access to WWP in the Covens - there is also the 5 Talos formation that gives them all Scout, they could be in your deployment very quickly..
I'd say against DE for Nids to win they need to have FMC's - AV10 should mean that Flyrants and Crones will gain air superiority and rapidly dissect the grounded Dark Eldar
On a different note, does anyone have any experience against the new Dark Eldar? I don't have the codex yet and have only heard some stuff about them. How do you think we will fare against the new DE? What will probably be their new competitive build (or competitive units)? Will we continue to have trouble against them, or have they become slightly easier for us to deal with?
Appreciate in advance the input. Let's go beat some dark space elves!
I think I'll remain forever hopeful that one day, the dima will be changed to a jump MC and be given fearless. And when that day comes, I will run this list so hard! All over the shop.
Frozocrone wrote: SHUPPET, I think the Dark Eldar vets in the Tactica are discussing whether Lance or Haywire are more effective in the current format - I myself lean towards Haywire.
The Talos is looking to be a great heavy support choice, T7 with 3+ and FNP on turn 1 is going to be very durable, completely immune to Gribblies and needed 5's to Wound from everything else, except Carnifexes, Dimachaeron and Warp Lance. Couple that with 5 S7 AP2 attacks on the charge with a Twin-Linked splinter cannon (so 42 inch range) and in can put the hurt on monstrous creatures quite quickly (especially with WS5 and I4). Fearless too, all for 120 points - it's only real draw back is 3 Wounds but still it's going to take a lot to take it down.
Apparently there is a formation that lets IC join Talos, can't remember it but they get access to WWP in the Covens - there is also the 5 Talos formation that gives them all Scout, they could be in your deployment very quickly..
I'd say against DE for Nids to win they need to have FMC's - AV10 should mean that Flyrants and Crones will gain air superiority and rapidly dissect the grounded Dark Eldar
What comp nid list doesn't have at least 2 Flyrants anyway? lol
I don't get this big fuss about Talos/ Cronos. They are regular 3 wounded MC's with 3+ AS and are T7. enough shots from a brainleech devourer (or two) could drop one fairly easily.
Wilson wrote: What comp nid list doesn't have at least 2 Flyrants anyway? lol
I don't get this big fuss about Talos/ Cronos. They are regular 3 wounded MC's with 3+ AS and are T7. enough shots from a brainleech devourer (or two) could drop one fairly easily.
The worst kind of list!
To be fair you can take them in units of three which means you can shift them around for wound allocation.
And if I use a Flyrant for example purposes regarding wounds on average:
12 shots at BS4 with TL = 9.33 hits 9.33 hits requiring 5's to wound = 3.11 wounds 3.1 Armour Save at 3+ = 1.03 Wounds THEN it gets to make a FNP save (gets it standard) so it has a 1/3 chance of negating the wound, or if you're facing a Cronos engine with a Spirit Probe, 1/2 chance on a FNP(4+).
So on average you're going to be doing 0.66 wounds (or 0.50) a turn on average with a Flyrant...I'd say that's pretty durable
In CC the Talos is going to outshine TMC's, I think WS5, S7 and 5 attacks on the charg (in addition to 6 TL poisoned shots) and I4 is going to hurt TMC's more than TMC's can hurt it. Cronos has WS3 S5 so maybe not so much him - but I would definitely have an eye open on where that Talos is going
Wilson wrote: What comp nid list doesn't have at least 2 Flyrants anyway? lol
I don't get this big fuss about Talos/ Cronos. They are regular 3 wounded MC's with 3+ AS and are T7. enough shots from a brainleech devourer (or two) could drop one fairly easily.
The worst kind of list!
To be fair you can take them in units of three which means you can shift them around for wound allocation.
And if I use a Flyrant for example purposes regarding wounds on average:
12 shots at BS4 with TL = 9.33 hits
9.33 hits requiring 5's to wound = 3.11 wounds
3.1 Armour Save at 3+ = 1.03 Wounds
THEN it gets to make a FNP save (gets it standard) so it has a 1/3 chance of negating the wound, or if you're facing a Cronos engine with a Spirit Probe, 1/2 chance on a FNP(4+).
So on average you're going to be doing 0.66 wounds (or 0.50) a turn on average with a Flyrant...I'd say that's pretty durable
In CC the Talos is going to outshine TMC's, I think WS5, S7 and 5 attacks on the charg (in addition to 6 TL poisoned shots) and I4 is going to hurt TMC's more than TMC's can hurt it. Cronos has WS3 S5 so maybe not so much him - but I would definitely have an eye open on where that Talos is going
oh... well, when you say it like that! thats pretty damn nasty like!
Wilson wrote: oh... well, when you say it like that! thats pretty damn nasty like!
I think I might start running Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs again if they become extremely common - but tarpitting them and dealing with the rest of the army could also work
However aside from the FnP this is something they could pretty much always do... they might be worthwhile against us, as we are an army that is forced to get close, however they always have been, and they will still be just as bad vs almost every other match up. Seems like we will only see them when opponent is specifically building against us, and if you know someone is doing that you can just take a bunch of TS Gargs or The Miasma Cannon or something and have no worries dealing with them in return.
I played alongside the new dark eldar tonight vs Orks. The Scourges with Haywire were pretty underwhelming. Wyches suck. Incubi went up against a giant "Council of the Waaaaagh!" deathstar, and did better than expected. They lost, but threw some damage right back.
The single biggest contribution the Dark Eldar made to the game was when a Raider exploded and killed 6 orks, who then lost another 4 to Mob Rule.
We were facing the gunliniest orks I have ever seen. 2 x 15 Lootas, 5 Traktor Kannons, 5 Smasha Gunz, 2 X Deff Dred with 2 Rokkits, 2 X 20 Slugga boyz, and Council of the Waaaagh in an outflanking battle wagon.
I ran 40 Hormagants, and between them and my 4 infiltrating Dakkafexes I took care of business. My 2 Lictors even made their points when they assaulted, and the swept the 5 Traktor Kannons. We would have tabled him by turn 3 because his Council failed their reserve roll. We fluffed the roll, and spotted him a Morkanaunt, and he ended up conceding after turn 3 after the incubi did some damage to his Council.
I feel bad for Orks. All I hear are ork players complaining about how under-powered their codex is. Could they be even worse off than Tyranids? Honestly, I can't tell for sure as I have not faced the new orks yet (at least not with my Tyranids).
Perhaps the next time I drop by Frontline Gaming, I'll challenge Frankie's Dark Eldar with my bugs. It'll be interesting to see the type of shenanigans that he can come up with (as Frankie is known to bring some hardcore competitive spam lists).
jy2 wrote: I feel bad for Orks. All I hear are ork players complaining about how under-powered their codex is. Could they be even worse off than Tyranids? Honestly, I can't tell for sure as I have not faced the new orks yet (at least not with my Tyranids).
Perhaps the next time I drop by Frontline Gaming, I'll challenge Frankie's Dark Eldar with my bugs. It'll be interesting to see the type of shenanigans that he can come up with (as Frankie is known to bring some hardcore competitive spam lists).
Orks are an extremely balanced match up for us. As far as power level goes, I'd say they are weaker other match ups (Barely any Flyrant, Carnifexes, Thropes, Living Artillery, Skyblight, etc level type of things for Orkz). But as far as a well written codex, they got better internal balance than we do. Not by a massive margin, but significantly enough. It's a tough trade off. I wouldn't say they are worse off than us, but damn GW is putting out some trashtier dexes as of late, and it seems to be all the Xenos copping it. Look at AstraMili / SpaceMarines / ImpKnights / Space Wolves / GreyKnights's power level if you want a comparison of the recent dexes, compared to Nids, Orks, & DE. It's a bit heavy to be too much of a coincidence
jy2 wrote: I feel bad for Orks. All I hear are ork players complaining about how under-powered their codex is. Could they be even worse off than Tyranids? Honestly, I can't tell for sure as I have not faced the new orks yet (at least not with my Tyranids).
Orks are my 2nd army, though most of my Orks are not ready for the table top. The main Ork codex is no better than the main tyranid codex, but their suppliment is better than our dataslates by far. Instead of having 2 formations that are kinda good, they have 2 that are outstanding, and another 5-6 that are good, but nobody is sure how good, because nobody has enough experience fielding them. The new mob rule is punishing, and designed to make players feel bad about playing Orks, and it mainly works as about 1/2 of the local Ork players have quit.
I took lictors and Genestealers, so the Orks could have won the game if they hadn't thrown away so many points on elite units and upgrades.
I have not looked at the new Ork book yet. It seems a trend is to punish a player base that has an army wide rule that hinges on being successful.
Synapse and Mob check come to mind. I can only imagine how bad demonic instability will be when demons get a new book. It will probably effect them in shooting as well and not just assault.
I have a 1500 point game tomorrow my first with bugs in 3 editions... It is against a Chaos opponent with a more fluffy list than uber competitive.
Guys Im looking to bring this TAC list to an 1850 tourney at the end of this month.
Any advice is much appreciated
2 x Flyrant with devs and grubs
2 x Lictors in a brood
2 x single Zoans
15 x Horms with toxin
15 x Horms with toxin
12 x Stealers
14 x Gargs with toxin
14 x Gargs with toxin
5 x Shrikes with devs and rending
2 x Mawlocs
3 x Biovores
The basic idea is to present a lot of different types of threats and move quickly to get board control/tie up units/pressure objectives.
Ratius wrote: Guys Im looking to bring this TAC list to an 1850 tourney at the end of this month.
Any advice is much appreciated
2 x Flyrant with devs and grubs
2 x Lictors in a brood
2 x single Zoans
15 x Horms with toxin
15 x Horms with toxin
12 x Stealers
14 x Gargs with toxin
14 x Gargs with toxin
5 x Shrikes with devs and rending
2 x Mawlocs
3 x Biovores
The basic idea is to present a lot of different types of threats and move quickly to get board control/tie up units/pressure objectives.
I think you'll struggle with this list as it is. The main flaws in nids where semi fixed by the formations and then more so by forge world.
If the tournament allows either or, look to get a Malanthrope in their at least to walk up the board with the rest of your slower gaunts OR have a look at some of the formations.
Lictors to try and pressure some weaker backfield units opponents might have (artillary, long fangs etc).
Zoans for a bit more synapse and warpcharge.
Im definitely not set on either tbh if you have alternatives?
I think you'll struggle with this list as it is.
Could you expand a bit ?Im not overly familiar with the dirtier Nid builds. I dont have enough models to run full formations Im afraid.
Lictors to try and pressure some weaker backfield units opponents might have (artillary, long fangs etc).
Zoans for a bit more synapse and warpcharge.
Im definitely not set on either tbh if you have alternatives?
I think you'll struggle with this list as it is.
Could you expand a bit ?Im not overly familiar with the dirtier Nid builds. I dont have enough models to run full formations Im afraid.
Sure!
The best way, for me personally to run Nids is going all out on multi wounded high toughness MC's, cover saves and applying pressure fast.
applying pressure fast you have in the form of two flyrants with devourers, gargoyles and shrikes.
Mawlocs contribute towards the MC count but thats where it ends.
Living artillery node would be a good fit because it introduces another MC into your list while keeping the biovores - however you'd have to cut out 270 pts from your list and I don't want to tell you to do that.
Cover saves - Venomthrope or Malanthrope. preferably the latter because of synapse, T5, regen and 4 wounds with a 3+ but if you're restricted on models then go for the venom. it will help you avoid giving up first blood.
You might split the Zoans up, or try to fit in some warriors. You look a little weak on synapse. You might keep a Zoan in the backfield to babysit your Biovores. Personally I prefer Hive Guard over lictors, they're a bit more of an all-rounder for me. Popping transports, potshots at fliers, and they can put a few wounds too, all while skulking behind a wall out of sight.
Finally got to play my 'nidzilla list today, in a 2v1 against an IG player and a Daemon-factory player.
As noted before, I decided to downgrade my dakka-Flyrant to a walking MC and double up on them, and man, I really felt how much of a crutch the Flyrant is for us.
With no guns packing a range longer than 24'', the only units that ever managed to really reach out and touch my opponents were the Mawlocs and the Harpy. I don't normally have the Harpy in my list (I've deliberately avoided taking any flyers in this list because I've been on a win-streak lately and wanted to make a list that was more fun for my opponents to deal with) but it was bumped up from a 1500 point list to an 1850 point one to compensate for my opponents' both having a 1000-point list, so I took the Harpy and a unit of Lictors to try and give a little accuracy to the Mawlocs.
Man... the Lictors were wiped by a veteran squad and two plasma sentinels turn 1. One of the Mawlocs scattered onto a unit of Horrors and killed ten of them, then got merc'd by the same Veteran squad (3xplasma guns) the very next turn, while the other Mawloc scattered away from any enemy units and got killed by two summoned bloodthirsters a turn later. The Harpy killed about half a unit of Horrors but got knocked down to 1 wound by a single round of fire from a Vindicare assassin on quad-gun (lol). My three Dakka-fex's put in the most work, killing both sentinels and a daemonette unit, and survived till the end of the game, while both of my Tyrants were killed, one after the other, by Punisher-Pask.
I conceded at the bottom of turn 3, as by that point both my mawlocs and Hive Tyrants were dead, both of my hormagaunt units had been wiped by Pask's Eradicator/standard-Russ buddies even with Venomthrope support, my Harpy was down to one wound and my three fex's were in combat with a Bloodthirster and Daemonette squad. And my Daemon opponent had five (!) summoned Bloodthirsters on the field.
Pretty brutal. If I had been using my Living Artillery list, the Biovores would have taken it to their veterans, horrors and Vindicare, while my Flyrants very feasibly could have wiped Pask and his entire squad in just a round or two of shooting. As it stood, with 99% of my army having a 6'' move and 24'' guns, I just couldn't bring enough of it to bare fast enough to cripple my opponents' armies.
And on that note, without falling back on a Flyrant, how do you reliably deal with an AV14-wall? Mawlocs aren't reliable enough, imo.
And on that note, without falling back on a Flyrant, how do you reliably deal with an AV14-wall? Mawlocs aren't reliable enough, imo.
Use Hive Commander to outflank a Tervigon with eGrubs
Do the same with a Carnifex. HVC and Crushing Claws preferred loadout. Taking a bigger brood helps but you really only need the one set of crushing claws.
Brood of Zoans (for lances), either marching up or you could try outflanking. I have a feeling they will die a very horrible horrible death that way though. (No ablative wounds, 3 save, low toughness)
Hive Guard are a possibility if you have enough and are in a superior position (i.e. outside of LOS with impalers or up close and in cover with haywires)
Hive Crone with S8 vector and Haywire rockets. Not a good option but it's there...
huge broods of hormas/gargoyles with AG. If enough of them make it across the field (read 50-60) most vehicles have AV10-11 on the rear (except Land Raiders...) and you can glance them to death through sheer weight of attacks. genestealers/shrikes/raveners with rending claws can feasibly do the same thing but are much more expensive per attack/wound. also not a good option
Wilson wrote: I don't know if any of you have heard but there are two new large nid kits coming out in the next 6-7 weeks.
Rules in the box too!
Sadly, I hope not... I can't think of what we really need at this point, unless it is a plastic stone crusher carnifex and a Magma Corer. Also, half of what information I can find on these 2 new kits is either on Faeit or over a year old...So do we want to start passing the salt shaker now or later?
Lo wha.... We could really really use some decent AT, or better Synapse units, or decent troops, etc, we lack a lot of utility. On top of that, we lost Parasite Doom and Spores, so there is plenty of room for good things to be added. Not sure why anyone would complain about possible new units, or even new kits for old ones. You aren't forced to use them, they can't make your army any worse, and could potentially fill the critical hole in our codex.
SHUPPET wrote: Lo wha.... We could really really use some decent AT, or better Synapse units, or decent troops, etc, we lack a lot of utility. On top of that, we lost Parasite Doom and Spores, so there is plenty of room for good things to be added. Not sure why anyone would complain about possible new units, or even new kits for old ones. You aren't forced to use them, they can't make your army any worse, and could potentially fill the critical hole in our codex.
My reference to a plastic stone crusher was my suggestion for some better anti-tank options. We have a decent overall amount of anti-tank options available anyhow. We have AG hormagaunts and Gargoyles in the general infantry sections that can tear apart light armor on the charge, and are reasonably easy to swarm with. We have Zoanthropes (as capricious as they are) and Hive Guard in our elites section, which are fairly selective in their prey, but do actually moderately well. Our heavy support section groans under the weight of Carnifexes, Tyrannofexes, Mawlocs, and Dimachaerons (sp?). We have rending claw Raveners and Shrikes in our Fast Attack along with Genestealers in our arsenal. And to top it all off, we have Flyrants that are more than capable of taking on some pesky armor. Do we really need all that much more anti-tank in an army that can easily fit it in most slots to one degree or another with reasonable success and generally has no problem with most forms of it. Sure, Imperial Knights are going to always be an issue, but they are an issue to every army to a decent degree. I don't think we need to hang our breathe hoping for GW to release a tailor-made TMC to rip a Knight apart. That cheapens the victory for every Tyranid player.
On the Synapse line, I really feel that we have good synapse units overall, considering just how many people seem to run 2-3 Flyrants in a build in this thread alone. Sure, we can always use more, but I don't think it needs to be something so excessive that we wind up never having to worry about Synapse ever again because of 1 model, or worse we suddenly just have to have this one model, and subsequently half our lists are now centered around one model and protecting that one model, and the game goes back to the wonders of 6th edition and the cookie cutter lists. Let me ask, are we really hurting for reliable synapse anymore, considering just how many ways we already have to boost synapse overall?
The Doom of Malan'tai, I could live without, considering just how bland and auto-inclusive it was. Every game I watched always played out the same in the game. The Doom of Malan'tai drops early game and proceeded to, as the kids say today, #YOLO. A turn or two later, and massive casualties ensued most of the time. A model that could kill plenty more than it's cost while not having to worry too much is more than a little game-breaking and not worth it in my opinion to keep us in the game. As wonderful as the Doom is, it also will not have the same durability that it had last edition. Remember, this is the edition where every child chews on the words Wave Serpent, Imperial Knight, Riptide, and Wraith Knights like stale vomit in their mouths when they don't understand intelligence and basic game mechanics to find their own solution to a problem.
If they brought back the Parasite of Mortrex (Which is funny because I do seem to recall most people last edition saying that she, while being an adorable little mother, was completely crap and that everyone that used her was an imbecile)...so help me god, point me to the sculptor so that I may kiss their hands and bless the instruments that have brought life and form back a well loved little monstrosity.
As for Spores...lets be honest. Do we really think Games Workshop is that stupid? We all know the drama that occurred in court, and I doubt that Games Workshop is going to touch any form of deepstrike option in the form of model for Tyranids. Then again there is the common argument as to why we never got them in the first place. Remember, Drop pods work for multiple different armies. Spores only work for 1. The justification was just never there for the company to bother spending their money on a non-important unit, that while important to use, didn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. Now, a couple models on par with the Harridan's transport capability on the other hand, I can see potential for and can embrace openly and happily. Last I checked, Open Topped = Assault Vehicle, and that makes my nearly 95% Assault Army VERY happy.
I'm not complaining in any real sense of the word, merely feeling my age in this game. My memory has never been the best. Just look at some of the blunders I've made on this forum in my tenure. Rules/Codexes are like fine books to me, and hardback's are more precious to me than any other type, though I am starting to see the value of all these EBooks, IBooks, and WhateverBooks that they seem to invent for everything else. I just wish they would just sell us a PDF for each edition that would update during that time frame with any changes or new additions to the army during that time, and then all you had to do was buy a new edition every edition and know that you had everything for the given army. Then I wouldn't have to have a small library dedicated to my Tyranids, and several random laminated pages with individual rules on them. We are here to eat the wondrous and diverse species of the galaxy, not paper.
SHUPPET wrote: Lo wha.... We could really really use some decent AT, or better Synapse units, or decent troops, etc, we lack a lot of utility. On top of that, we lost Parasite Doom and Spores, so there is plenty of room for good things to be added. Not sure why anyone would complain about possible new units, or even new kits for old ones. You aren't forced to use them, they can't make your army any worse, and could potentially fill the critical hole in our codex.
We have a decent overall amount of anti-tank options available anyhow.
Have to disagree with "decent". Our AT struggles in so many ways its not even funny. We have to either get in melee range: which translates into losing half of our unit just to get there. Or we have the option to shoot. Mediocre, short range, unreliable, low balistic skill, bad armor penetration and all the other gimmicks like jink, invul shields and obscured target you can immagine. All theese factors put together makes shooting very unpredictable if not borderline unreliable and while getting into melee does the trick , you dont make it half of the time because all vehicles are faster than our foot sloggers. Which really makes this tactic unreliable.
We have AG hormagaunts and Gargoyles in the general infantry sections that can tear apart light armor on the charge, and are reasonably easy to swarm with.
Hormas seem good on paper but I have been consistently dissapointed with them. I find that hormas rarely manage to win fights vs tactical marine squads and when they do , it is always at the expense of massive casualties. So once again, this option is unreliable. Gargoyles are good infantry because they have the mobility to get in range and a mechanic to make combat last but they are a fast attack choice, so unless you play skyblight they are not ob sec and wont score you as many points as they should, so once again, the verdict is : unreliable.
We have Zoanthropes (as capricious as they are) and Hive Guard in our elites section, which are fairly selective in their prey, but do actually moderately well. Our heavy support section groans under the weight of Carnifexes, Tyrannofexes, Mawlocs, and Dimachaerons (sp?).
Have to agree with this, the strenght of our army comes from the heavy support section, without this slot our army is cannon fodder.
We have rending claw Raveners and Shrikes in our Fast Attack along with Genestealers in our arsenal.
If you were trying to make a point with this example, you failed miserably. Genestealers are incredibly bad ! They are the equivalent of a point sink when you want to let your opponent win very quickly.
Nobody uses raveners and for a reason, they are so unreliable.
And to top it all off, we have Flyrants that are more than capable of taking on some pesky armor.
Now you're on the right track. no wonder every remotely competitive nid army uses multiples of them.
Do we really need all that much more anti-tank in an army that can easily fit it in most slots to one degree or another with reasonable success and generally has no problem with most forms of it. Sure, Imperial Knights are going to always be an issue, but they are an issue to every army to a decent degree. I don't think we need to hang our breathe hoping for GW to release a tailor-made TMC to rip a Knight apart. That cheapens the victory for every Tyranid player.
That is why dataslates and forgeworld units are good for the competitive meta, but it seems unlikely that gw will update the tyranid dataslates to make them more viable in 7th edition because there is already 2 entries that do the job so why bother with diversity. (endless swarm formation would actually be fun to play in 7th if only it allowed all those troop choices to be ob sec but when 7th came out, those dataslates took a massive nerf. Not like they were incredibly good to begin with anyway, so in most cases things that sucked already , got massively nerfed.)
On the Synapse line, I really feel that we have good synapse units overall, considering just how many people seem to run 2-3 Flyrants in a build in this thread alone. Sure, we can always use more, but I don't think it needs to be something so excessive that we wind up never having to worry about Synapse ever again because of 1 model, or worse we suddenly just have to have this one model, and subsequently half our lists are now centered around one model and protecting that one model, and the game goes back to the wonders of 6th edition and the cookie cutter lists. Let me ask, are we really hurting for reliable synapse anymore, considering just how many ways we already have to boost synapse overall?
Synapse is definately much less of an issue anymore but it is still very restrictive. Its like a big leash around your neck for no reason, other armies have things like fearless and armywide buffs with no apparent reason yet we have to play around a restrictive mechanism (even if it is much less of a problem it is still one). We used to have something interesting with shadows in the warp but once again, 7th edition nerfed this ability to the ground. such a shame...
The Doom of Malan'tai, I could live without, considering just how bland and auto-inclusive it was. Every game I watched always played out the same in the game. The Doom of Malan'tai drops early game and proceeded to, as the kids say today, #YOLO. A turn or two later, and massive casualties ensued most of the time. A model that could kill plenty more than it's cost while not having to worry too much is more than a little game-breaking and not worth it in my opinion to keep us in the game. As wonderful as the Doom is, it also will not have the same durability that it had last edition. Remember, this is the edition where every child chews on the words Wave Serpent, Imperial Knight, Riptide, and Wraith Knights like stale vomit in their mouths when they don't understand intelligence and basic game mechanics to find their own solution to a problem.
I agree, doom was a bit broken and not fun to play against. But nor is it fun to play vs an army of 5 giant units.
I'm not complaining in any real sense of the word, merely feeling my age in this game. My memory has never been the best. Just look at some of the blunders I've made on this forum in my tenure. Rules/Codexes are like fine books to me, and hardback's are more precious to me than any other type, though I am starting to see the value of all these EBooks, IBooks, and WhateverBooks that they seem to invent for everything else. I just wish they would just sell us a PDF for each edition that would update during that time frame with any changes or new additions to the army during that time, and then all you had to do was buy a new edition every edition and know that you had everything for the given army. Then I wouldn't have to have a small library dedicated to my Tyranids, and several random laminated pages with individual rules on them. We are here to eat the wondrous and diverse species of the galaxy, not paper.
Lol , would definately love to see some armor as fragile as paper for our bugs to eat/crush. GW is and has always been a lazy company when it comes to updating the rules after a new edition arrives. I just wished they would update/tweak the digital dataslates. I know this company dates to the age of pen and paper but surely they are aware that software can be UPDATED !
cyberjonesy wrote: Have to disagree with "decent". Our AT struggles in so many ways its not even funny. We have to either get in melee range: which translates into losing half of our unit just to get there. Or we have the option to shoot. Mediocre, short range, unreliable, low ballistic skill, bad armor penetration and all the other gimmicks like jink, invul shields and obscured target you can imagine. All these factors put together makes shooting very unpredictable if not borderline unreliable and while getting into melee does the trick , you don't make it half of the time because all vehicles are faster than our foot sloggers. Which really makes this tactic unreliable.
I don't want to come across as brutal, but welcome to Tyranids. Most weapons are assault based and short ranged, relying on the ballistic capabilities of what amounts to rabid attack dogs with guns slaved to their bodies. If you ever expect to get reliable, long range firepower...the Tau are just down the hall on your right, and the Space Marines on your left. By god, we can build an army, but don't expect to not take some losses on the way. Quantity has a quality all its own, and that is the game we play.
cyberjonesy wrote: Hormas seem good on paper but I have been consistently disappointed with them. I find that hormas rarely manage to win fights vs tactical marine squads and when they do , it is always at the expense of massive casualties. So once again, this option is unreliable. Gargoyles are good infantry because they have the mobility to get in range and a mechanic to make combat last but they are a fast attack choice, so unless you play skyblight they are not obj sec and wont score you as many points as they should, so once again, the verdict is : unreliable.
Are you getting the charge every time? Realistically, you should have a fair chance of taking much of the squad down over several rounds of combat. That being said, your using them against tacticals. I'm talking about them vs Tanks. There is a world of difference there. A good sized horde of Gargoyles and Hormagaunts should have absolutely no problem vs light tanks and transports.
cyberjonesy wrote: If you were trying to make a point with this example, you failed miserably. Genestealers are incredibly bad ! They are the equivalent of a point sink when you want to let your opponent win very quickly.
Nobody uses raveners and for a reason, they are so unreliable.
Again, I get the feeling your talking about them vs infantry. These particular units have high numbers of attacks, and 2 of them do have deep strike. So they should have very little problems surviving a round of fire from a tank, provided you didn't do something stupid and deep strike next to something with flame templates. After that, you just need to hop into assault and work on those rending strikes.
SHUPPET wrote: Lo wha.... We could really really use some decent AT, or better Synapse units, or decent troops, etc, we lack a lot of utility. On top of that, we lost Parasite Doom and Spores, so there is plenty of room for good things to be added. Not sure why anyone would complain about possible new units, or even new kits for old ones. You aren't forced to use them, they can't make your army any worse, and could potentially fill the critical hole in our codex.
My reference to a plastic stone crusher was my suggestion for some better anti-tank options. We have a decent overall amount of anti-tank options available anyhow. We have AG hormagaunts and Gargoyles in the general infantry sections that can tear apart light armor on the charge, and are reasonably easy to swarm with. We have Zoanthropes (as capricious as they are) and Hive Guard in our elites section, which are fairly selective in their prey, but do actually moderately well. Our heavy support section groans under the weight of Carnifexes, Tyrannofexes, Mawlocs, and Dimachaerons (sp?). We have rending claw Raveners and Shrikes in our Fast Attack along with Genestealers in our arsenal. And to top it all off, we have Flyrants that are more than capable of taking on some pesky armor. Do we really need all that much more anti-tank in an army that can easily fit it in most slots to one degree or another with reasonable success and generally has no problem with most forms of it. Sure, Imperial Knights are going to always be an issue, but they are an issue to every army to a decent degree. I don't think we need to hang our breathe hoping for GW to release a tailor-made TMC to rip a Knight apart. That cheapens the victory for every Tyranid player.
You are playing a different game than the rest of us. A stone crusher is terrible anti-tank because almost every tank it might want to pop is faster than it, and it is looking at a turn 3 or turn 4 charge. When we do run into armor, we aren't talking about 1 or 2 Rhinos we are talking about 6-8. AG hormagants and Gargoyles are pricey for what they do, Zoenthropes and Hive guard are pricey for what they do, and can't be counted on to pop a 40 point rhino a turn when they are dedicated anti-tank. Our Heavy support (except for carnifexes) require up to 3 turns on average to pop a rhino or even a Trukk, and are slower than them.
Nearly all of our anti-tank is S6, and almost none of it ignores cover. We've got no melta, we've got no Missiles or Rokkits. No Las Cannons. We've got no AP:1 at all. Armorbane is really expensive, costs us shooting, and is only available on slow moving models in Melee that first have to chase down the tank to pop it.
Ask yourself the question: What army has worse anti-tank options than Tyranids? If you ask that question, i think it will be clear why Tyranid players complain about lack of anti tank.
Meanwhile, thanks to FMC's we are actually doing ok against most Imperial Knights. Adamantine Lance causes us problems, but it causes most people problems. Because our codex is so imbalanced that Flying Circus is the only remotely good build, we end up being one of the better counters to Knights.
If I could request a new Tyranid model, it would be an MC with mobility options that is appropriately costed (looking at you Trygons). Something akin to a Wraith Knight, Riptide, or Dread Knight. A Mycetic spore would fill this need well, as it could be a mobility enhancer for our existing MCs, but my guess is that instead we will get either a giant kit of a slow moving MC (Like a Dimacharon, stone crusher fex, etc) or something like a deathleaper that is modeled on the assassins, or most likely nothing at all because rumors are just that.
cyberjonesy wrote: Have to disagree with "decent". Our AT struggles in so many ways its not even funny. We have to either get in melee range: which translates into losing half of our unit just to get there. Or we have the option to shoot. Mediocre, short range, unreliable, low ballistic skill, bad armor penetration and all the other gimmicks like jink, invul shields and obscured target you can imagine. All these factors put together makes shooting very unpredictable if not borderline unreliable and while getting into melee does the trick , you don't make it half of the time because all vehicles are faster than our foot sloggers. Which really makes this tactic unreliable.
I don't want to come across as brutal, but welcome to Tyranids. Most weapons are assault based and short ranged, relying on the ballistic capabilities of what amounts to rabid attack dogs with guns slaved to their bodies. If you ever expect to get reliable, long range firepower...the Tau are just down the hall on your right, and the Space Marines on your left. By god, we can build an army, but don't expect to not take some losses on the way. Quantity has a quality all its own, and that is the game we play.
I really don't think we are asking for long range quality firepower. I mean for me, turning deathspitters into a meltagun would probably do the trick. We can shoot all of the S4 at tanks we want, and it does nothing. Our S6 works on light armor but makes AV 13 out of reach. Making Heavy Venom Cannon an Assault 3 Las Cannon would work well, but short range anti tank is fine.
cyberjonesy wrote: If you were trying to make a point with this example, you failed miserably. Genestealers are incredibly bad ! They are the equivalent of a point sink when you want to let your opponent win very quickly.
Nobody uses raveners and for a reason, they are so unreliable.
Again, I get the feeling your talking about them vs infantry. These particular units have high numbers of attacks, and 2 of them do have deep strike. So they should have very little problems surviving a round of fire from a tank, provided you didn't do something stupid and deep strike next to something with flame templates. After that, you just need to hop into assault and work on those rending strikes.
I see you theory crafting, but I am doubting that you actually have tried this much. Most armies have sufficient shooting to deal with one deep striking or outflanking unit. Even in the best of circumstances, you are better off running your raveners and Shrikes up the board than deep striking them, and Genestealers are laughable overcosted with only very complex gimmicks making use of them (like 11 squads or infiltrating with a congaline). Outflanking does not work for them. But the fundamental reason why they are a bad anti-tank option is that if they pop a Rhino, it means they then have to weather the opponent's shooting for an entire turn out in the open without consolidation before they can do anything else. Generally taking a 200 point unit in hopes of killing a 55 point razorback is a very, very bad idea.
jy2 wrote: What we need is a dimachaeron who moves 12", because what the heck type of Fast Attack unit moves 6" with no option to deepstrike?!?
Ours apparently. Still, could be worse and it could have gotten Relentless/Slow and Purposeful.
That being said, I don't know about you, but in a little joking "Forge the Narrative" competitive battle, would you like to be on the end of a Dima moving that fast on you? I know I wouldn't. Still, if we are going to talk about potential creatures, what do you think of this for a fast attack beast. Mix a Caestus Assault Ram with a Crassus Armored Assault Transport. It's heavily armored, moves insanely fast, and the thing just rams whatever it feels like to disgorge a unit of say...10-20 passengers inside the vehicle?
tag8833 wrote: I see you theory crafting, but I am doubting that you actually have tried this much. Most armies have sufficient shooting to deal with one deep striking or outflanking unit. Even in the best of circumstances, you are better off running your raveners and Shrikes up the board than deep striking them, and Genestealers are laughable overcosted with only very complex gimmicks making use of them (like 11 squads or infiltrating with a congaline). Outflanking does not work for them. But the fundamental reason why they are a bad anti-tank option is that if they pop a Rhino, it means they then have to weather the opponent's shooting for an entire turn out in the open without consolidation before they can do anything else. Generally taking a 200 point unit in hopes of killing a 55 point razorback is a very, very bad idea.
That's why I would pick on a land raider with Genestealers, if I brought them at all.
tag8833 wrote: I see you theory crafting, but I am doubting that you actually have tried this much. Most armies have sufficient shooting to deal with one deep striking or outflanking unit. Even in the best of circumstances, you are better off running your raveners and Shrikes up the board than deep striking them, and Genestealers are laughable overcosted with only very complex gimmicks making use of them (like 11 squads or infiltrating with a congaline). Outflanking does not work for them. But the fundamental reason why they are a bad anti-tank option is that if they pop a Rhino, it means they then have to weather the opponent's shooting for an entire turn out in the open without consolidation before they can do anything else. Generally taking a 200 point unit in hopes of killing a 55 point razorback is a very, very bad idea.
That's why I would pick on a land raider with Genestealers, if I brought them at all.
Unless they have Adrenal Glands they can't hurt a Land Raider.
On average you will need 27 Genestealers with Adrenal Glands and Scything talons to kill a Land Raider. 540 points.
Or you could take 36 Genestealers with just Adrenal Glands and kill the Land Raider for 576 points.
Either way you are looking at a hilariously overcosted anti-tank option. 5 Tank Bustas in a Trukk will do about the same amount of damage to a land raider and only cost 100 points.
I forget who it was- on the 3rd page of the Necron rumors thread- but they were fairly reliable so far. Calling Plastic Dominatrix and Dual Hierodule kit now!
Wilson wrote: I don't know if any of you have heard but there are two new large nid kits coming out in the next 6-7 weeks.
Rules in the box too!
What, where? Source please
Lords of War Facebook page.
their track record for rumours are, as i believe 6 correct. 0 wrong and none in between.
"Tons of rumors flying around about Necrons and they are all wrong. The Necrons will only see the release of a Necron lord, no codex will be released. Also Tyranids will see the release of two large bugs. The rules for their models will be in the box like the Nagash release. This is also just a model release for the Tyranids, no codex."
The comments on the post which I found the most interesting I have quoted below;
"What time are we talking for the Nid Release?"
Lords of War Gaming
"The should release soon, within 6-7 weeks."
"What are the new Tyranid releases like? Are we talking Tyranid equivalents to Knights?"
Lords of War Gaming
"They will be big, I don't think that they will be that big. From what I was told to me, "It will give the army more punch." Cryptic I know, but that's what I have."
IMO what nid players need is not another nid model/unit. We need a proper and detailed errata to fix up the multitude of poor units and useless biomorphs. That could give nids the anti-tank needed, the speed needed, etc, however, it is more likely GW will squeeze more blood out of nid players with another unit (probably mediocre).
I do actually expect the new model as GW has shown it has little desire to fix the mess so that all the models you paid for are decent and have a function in the army. They would rather add new units to perform similar roles. I can't wait for them to finally put out an errata to nerf our dakka flyrant to make it shelf fodder and also release a new type of tyrant kit with wings that has better stats/weapons and cheaper point cost - they can call it a screwrant - so that nid players can purchase a new kit to perform a role previously occupied by another unit (or that should be occupied by another unit).
This company really needs a kick in the hibatchi! We don't need new units - we need the rest of our army to function properly and be useful.
tag8833 wrote: I see you theory crafting, but I am doubting that you actually have tried this much. Most armies have sufficient shooting to deal with one deep striking or outflanking unit. Even in the best of circumstances, you are better off running your raveners and Shrikes up the board than deep striking them, and Genestealers are laughable overcosted with only very complex gimmicks making use of them (like 11 squads or infiltrating with a congaline). Outflanking does not work for them. But the fundamental reason why they are a bad anti-tank option is that if they pop a Rhino, it means they then have to weather the opponent's shooting for an entire turn out in the open without consolidation before they can do anything else. Generally taking a 200 point unit in hopes of killing a 55 point razorback is a very, very bad idea.
That's why I would pick on a land raider with Genestealers, if I brought them at all.
Unless they have Adrenal Glands they can't hurt a Land Raider.
On average you will need 27 Genestealers with Adrenal Glands and Scything talons to kill a Land Raider. 540 points.
Or you could take 36 Genestealers with just Adrenal Glands and kill the Land Raider for 576 points.
Either way you are looking at a hilariously overcosted anti-tank option. 5 Tank Bustas in a Trukk will do about the same amount of damage to a land raider and only cost 100 points.
Ok, finally got home and took a look at the rules, since I seemed to be overlooking something. I stand corrected, and rending is definitely not an option for land raiders with that change. Can't believe I overlooked that. Well, with that pipe dream gone, it does look like we could actually use a new creature for taking down heavy armor. Thank you for pointing that out Tag.
Wilson wrote: I would like a toughness 8, 7 wounded Gargantuous psyker with a bio electric laser beam like godzilla.
S11 AP 6 haywire.
Also if it could be immune to grav that would be awesome.
Make it T6, 4 wounds, ML 4. Make it look like a super Zoanthrope. Then you could have a new Doom of Malan'tai that isn't the old one, and we can all troll the Craftworld Eldar players.
Wilson wrote: I would like a toughness 8, 7 wounded Gargantuous psyker with a bio electric laser beam like godzilla.
S11 AP 6 haywire.
Also if it could be immune to grav that would be awesome.
( I jest.)
According to fluff, the Dominatrix is probably one of the strongest psykers in the Hive Fleet as she is the main link to the Norn Queen. Here is my custom rules for the Dominatrix:
Dominatrix
The Dominatrix is a Tyranid species which exerts a controlling psychic aura to bring lesser Tyranid creatures under its will, allowing the swarm under its command to operate with uncanny efficiency and tactical ability. However, a Dominatrix is extremely rare and only seen in the most advanced Tyranid swarms.
A Dominatrix possesses a large array of bio-weaponry and packs a colossal mass, dwarfing that of an Imperial Super Heavy Tank. It has an intelligence akin to that of a mighty Hive Tyrant, and the link it has to the Tyranid Hive Mind surpasses even the Hive Tyrant.
A Dominatrix is a gargantuan composite creature of nightmarish proportions, equipped with ripping claws and fangs, and a stunning profusion of symbiotic weaponry. Dominatrices are the brood queens of the Tyranid hordes, their children spawning into all the different Tyranid classes. Inside her are all the gene sequences of the galaxy's most lethal creatures, ready to be spliced and twisted by the Hive Mind.
Because of the importance of a Dominatrix, which is also the most powerful link to the Hive Mind a horde has, they are strategic targets of the highest priority. Destroying a Dominatrix can decide whether a planet falls to the Great Devourer or is saved.
- Energy Pulse*: Range: Hellstorm, S: 10, AP: 2, Heavy 1
* Place the Hellstorm template so that the narrow end is within 18" of the weapon and the large is no closer to the weapon than the narrow end. The Energy Pulse is then treated like any other template weapon.
Monstrous Progenitor: The Dominatrix may spawn monstrous creatures in the Tyranid Movement phase before she has moved, even if she is locked in assault. On the turn she spawns a monstrous creature, the Dominatrix may not use any of her psychic powers. The new unit must be placed no more than 6" from the Dominatrix and may not be placed in impassable terrain, on top of another model or within 1" of an enemy unit. However, every turn she spawns a monstrous creature, roll a die. On a 5+, she may spawn no more for the rest of the game. The model spawned may not move or assault, but may shoot or run in the shooting phase.
The strain on the Dominatrix is great every time she spawns. She may spawn any 1 of the following Tyranid monstrous creatures: carnifex, exocrine, harpy, haruspex, hive crone, mawloc, trygon or tyrannofex. However, every time she spawns, she takes 1D2 Wounds with no saves of any kind allowed (not even FNP is allowed). All monstrous creatures spawned may include up to 30-pts of upgrades/biomorphs so long as it is represented on the model. Any flying monstrous creature spawned will start off on the table in Gliding mode.
Shadows in the Warp (24") - In addition, any non-friendly, non-Tyranid psyker who attempts to cast a psychic power while in range of her Shadows in the Warp do so with a -1 penalty on each warp dice rolled (however, a roll of 6 will still automatically pass).
Synapse Creature (24") - So strong is her Synapse that her Tyranid minions will continue to fight even beyond exhaustion. All friendly Tyranid units within 12" of the Dominatrix also get the FNPUSR.
Psychic Monstrosity: The Dominatrix is a Mastery Level 4 Psyker. In addition, she may cast the same Tyranid power twice.
Warp Shield: This is a different variation of the Warp Field projected by the lesser Tyranid beings, the zoanthropes. Warp Shield works exactly like Eldar Titan Holo-fields.
Ventus wrote: IMO what nid players need is not another nid model/unit. We need a proper and detailed errata to fix up the multitude of poor units and useless biomorphs. That could give nids the anti-tank needed, the speed needed, etc, however, it is more likely GW will squeeze more blood out of nid players with another unit (probably mediocre).
I do actually expect the new model as GW has shown it has little desire to fix the mess so that all the models you paid for are decent and have a function in the army. They would rather add new units to perform similar roles. I can't wait for them to finally put out an errata to nerf our dakka flyrant to make it shelf fodder and also release a new type of tyrant kit with wings that has better stats/weapons and cheaper point cost - they can call it a screwrant - so that nid players can purchase a new kit to perform a role previously occupied by another unit (or that should be occupied by another unit).
This company really needs a kick in the hibatchi! We don't need new units - we need the rest of our army to function properly and be useful.
This is so accurate it's depressing. And with the next release, while they balance a bunch of things back to playable, they will in return nerf a bunch of playable stuff to trashtier, to keep army compositions dynamic. What they don't understand is that if they just made everything balanced, people would feel a lot happier about spending their money on collecting an entire force.
jy2 wrote: What we need is a dimachaeron who moves 12", because what the heck type of Fast Attack unit moves 6" with no option to deepstrike?!?
This is almost a continuation of my response to Ventus, but exactly. This is a perfect change to make the unit playable. Because at the moment it's just another trashtier gimmicky unit.
cyberjonesy wrote: Have to disagree with "decent". Our AT struggles in so many ways its not even funny. We have to either get in melee range: which translates into losing half of our unit just to get there. Or we have the option to shoot. Mediocre, short range, unreliable, low ballistic skill, bad armor penetration and all the other gimmicks like jink, invul shields and obscured target you can imagine. All these factors put together makes shooting very unpredictable if not borderline unreliable and while getting into melee does the trick , you don't make it half of the time because all vehicles are faster than our foot sloggers. Which really makes this tactic unreliable.
I don't want to come across as brutal, but welcome to Tyranids. Most weapons are assault based and short ranged, relying on the ballistic capabilities of what amounts to rabid attack dogs with guns slaved to their bodies. If you ever expect to get reliable, long range firepower...the Tau are just down the hall on your right, and the Space Marines on your left. By god, we can build an army, but don't expect to not take some losses on the way. Quantity has a quality all its own, and that is the game we play.
This is a bad mindstate to be in. "Oh, you are complaining about lack of decent AT? then don't play Tyranids, we don't do decent AT". Theres no reason the Tyrannofex Rupture Cannon couldn't be sensibly written to be decent. there's no reason Hive Guard and Zoanthropes AT had to be nerfed to the ground, there's no reason smash had to be made useless, there's no reasons ScyTals had to be nerfed for our MC's, etc, etc. I genuinely think there is about 20 more things I could add to that, there is no way that our dex is in a good spot for AT right now. Also, your listing of all those S4 models as decent AT is short sighted, at best. Just because something can possibly put a wound on AV10 does not mean it good AT, nor does it mean the model is cost effective and worth taking in the first place anyway. Otherwise, Space Marines would never take a single AT unit like Cents, but Marines are S4 right? AND they have transports... our S4 pales in comparison, this is just not even worth the inclusion as AT and the fact that we are forced to rely on this crap shows how far behind everyone else we actually are.
The Doom of Malan'tai, I could live without, considering just how bland and auto-inclusive it was. Every game I watched always played out the same in the game. The Doom of Malan'tai drops early game and proceeded to, as the kids say today, #YOLO. A turn or two later, and massive casualties ensued most of the time. A model that could kill plenty more than it's cost while not having to worry too much is more than a little game-breaking and not worth it in my opinion to keep us in the game. As wonderful as the Doom is, it also will not have the same durability that it had last edition. Remember, this is the edition where every child chews on the words Wave Serpent, Imperial Knight, Riptide, and Wraith Knights like stale vomit in their mouths when they don't understand intelligence and basic game mechanics to find their own solution to a problem.
If they brought back the Parasite of Mortrex (Which is funny because I do seem to recall most people last edition saying that she, while being an adorable little mother, was completely crap and that everyone that used her was an imbecile)...so help me god, point me to the sculptor so that I may kiss their hands and bless the instruments that have brought life and form back a well loved little monstrosity.
While you may feel this way, it affects your army in no way shape or form if you choose not to use them, and for the rest of us it is a single Elite slot. And, with it's new release, all they would have to do is sensibly rebalance it. The removal of unbalanced models (assuming DoM was unbalanced, which I do not necessarily agree with) is not a better option than just rebalancing them, which is what they should do. That being said, if it doesn't change drastically it's almost guaranteed to be unplayable, as DoM without a pod is just a silly waste of points.
What they don't understand is that if they just made everything balanced, people would feel a lot happier about spending their money on collecting an entire force.
This exactly. If GW cared and put some effort to balance a dex internally and externally (along with errata to deal with issues that slip through), not only would I happily buy even more tyranid models like the pyrovore, but i would get a crone, exocrine and maybe FW nid units. But not only that, what GW doesn't seem to understand if serious effort was put into their rules and errata I would buy other armies (and I'm sure others would delve into more armies) - I liked the DE models when they were redone for 5th edition and considered building a DE army. But not with the shoddy rules and shoddy support by GW. Lots of lost sales for GW.
Hulksmash wrote: Running this this weekend. I'll let you guys know how it does:
Combined Arms Detachment:
Hive Tyrant
Wings, 2xDual Devourers
Hive Tyrant
Wings, 2xDual Devourers
Zoanthrope
Zoantrhope
Venomthrope
3 Rippers
Deepstrike
3 Rippers
Deepstrike
Crone
Crone
Allied Detachment:
Keeper of Secrets
Lvl 3
12 Horrors
9 Screamers
Daemon Prince
Mark of Slaanesh, Greater Gift, Wings, Lvl 3
I still love that idea of a list but every place I want to play it in a tournament is not allowing CTA.
With the other discussion on the page I hope we get a new LOW that is in plastic but if you play where people don't want to run LOW how does that help? I wish GW would update the data slates as well to bring some of them in line with the troop components being Obj Sec but I sometimes wonder if Obj Sec is over played and not as game changing as some people believe.
I had a 1250 point game last night I will write it up in detail later but I should have lost. I rolled horrible and my warlord flyrant in ruins failed one 2+ from a random melta gun shot failed his grounding test then got assaulted through cover. Got challenged by a tuned up chaos lord and slaughtered. Game should have been over at that point. The only saving grace was I smashed hit, wounded and he failed his inv so we both went bye bye.
Are most tournaments allowing the the Harridan? I would love to see a plastic of that.
What frustrates me is that Tyranids are suppose to be the big bad bugs with large amounts of MC that just terrify the prey. How is that almost every other army has a 12 move monstrous type creature available to them.
Tau - Riptide
Eldar/Dark Eldar - Wraithknight
Pick your imperial army - Knights
Orks - Gargant
Necrons and Chaos/Demons are the only other that come to mind that do not have a good center board control. Outside of using ForgeWorld that is. Those armies listed above do not need to use Escalation or Forgeworld to accomplish that.
NightWrench wrote: What frustrates me is that Tyranids are suppose to be the big bad bugs with large amounts of MC that just terrify the prey. How is that almost every other army has a 12 move monstrous type creature available to them.
Tau - Riptide
Eldar/Dark Eldar - Wraithknight
Pick your imperial army - Knights
Orks - Gargant
Necrons and Chaos/Demons are the only other that come to mind that do not have a good center board control. Outside of using ForgeWorld that is. Those armies listed above do not need to use Escalation or Forgeworld to accomplish that.
We do...but they should be in the air
I will say that I think we need a Monstrous Creature on the ground that the opponent just thinks...well screw you and your spammed # Nid player. IMO Flyrants are good, but not on a level of a Wraithknight or Riptide
No. We do not need a Wk/ Riptide power level unit. That is just terrible balancing. And wouldn't even necessarily make us stronger than a good AT unit would at this point.
Here's a crazy idea. The mycetic spore was a Tyranid Drop pod. What if instead we were given a Tyranid Rhino or Trukk? Something that could add to the survivability and speed of some of our critters without being more of the same.
Would you take Genestealers if you could store them in a 3 Wound T8 Beast MC with a 5+ save? How about Close combat Warriors? Poison Gants? Devourer Gants? It doesn't matter if it is statted out to be bad in close combat. WS3 S8 with 1 attack for instance. It would create a brand new way to play tyranids, and add some variability to our increasingly similar mono-builds. It wouldn't fix our codex full of broken toys, but it would do quite a lot to revolutionize our troops.
tag8833 wrote: Here's a crazy idea. The mycetic spore was a Tyranid Drop pod. What if instead we were given a Tyranid Rhino or Trukk? Something that could add to the survivability and speed of some of our critters without being more of the same.
Would you take Genestealers if you could store them in a 3 Wound T8 Beast MC with a 5+ save? How about Close combat Warriors? Poison Gants? Devourer Gants? It doesn't matter if it is statted out to be bad in close combat. WS3 S8 with 1 attack for instance. It would create a brand new way to play tyranids, and add some variability to our increasingly similar mono-builds. It wouldn't fix our codex full of broken toys, but it would do quite a lot to revolutionize our troops.
Yes, it's called the Malefactor. It existed in Epic along with the Haruspex, Exocrine and Dactylis. It's a monstrous creature that functions like an Tyranid Armoured personal carrier (APC).
BTW, here is my custom rules for the Malefactor. Use it if you like and feel free to make changes to it. Also, feel free to let me know what you think of this.
Malefactor
The Malefactor is a large Tyranid assault organism that is able to transport a brood of other Tyranid creatures into battle under its thick carapace. They are covered from head to tail in thick chitinous armour plating that protects them from incoming enemy fire. The Malefactor drags itself along the ground propelling itself with it’s large, powerful forearms and tail. Its forearms are studded with explosive bio-frag spines that it sprays as it rushes forward. It can also squirt forth a jet of highly toxic acid that eats through both flesh and metal alike as though they were paper. Finally, it is surprisingly fast and may propel itself through relatively long distances for brief periods of time.
Bio-Frag Spines:The forearms of the Malefactor are studded with explosive bio-frag spines that it sprays as it rushes forward.
The Malefactor and any unit that has just disembarked from it counts as having frag grenades when they charge into combat. The passengers need to charge on the same turn as when they disembark to benefit from the Malefactor's Frag Spines.
Battering Forearms:The over-sized and very powerful forearms of the Malefactor are used also as seige weapons, bulldozing fortifications and smashing anything that gets in its way.
The Hammer of Wrath attack of the Malefactor is treated as S:10 AP:2 and may re-roll any failed Armour Penetration rolls.
Burst Speed:Despite its massive size and heavy armor, the Malefactor is surprisingly fast. It can move very quickly for short amounts of time.
Every other turn, the Malefactor may move 12".
Transport:Underneath the thick carapace of the Malefactor are cavities which can house an entire brood of Tyranid organisms.
The Malefactor can hold 1 brood of up to 15 models. The models may not be of the type Monstrous Creature, Beast or Jump Infantry. The Malefactor is otherwise treated as an Open-topped Transport.
Im looking forward to my first GT, but with Double CAD and Forgeworld allowed, I shudder to think of the potential lists.
They may not be winning lists, but can you imagine the number of Riptides or Wraithknights you could cram into 1850pts that way? It's gonna be rough. What kind of diabolical shenanigans that will be dead stops for a Tyranid army can you guys think of?
Iechine wrote: Im looking forward to my first GT, but with Double CAD and Forgeworld allowed, I shudder to think of the potential lists.
They may not be winning lists, but can you imagine the number of Riptides or Wraithknights you could cram into 1850pts that way? It's gonna be rough. What kind of diabolical shenanigans that will be dead stops for a Tyranid army can you guys think of?
You cram too many riptides/wraithknights into a list and it actually becomes worse. That is because those units need the proper support units for them to work efficiently.
Now with that said, at 1850 double-CAD, I'd probably run something like this:
We're close with our lists, thats for sure. I cant run yours as Ive only 40 gargoyles and no bastion, but Id also rather die than paint another Tyranid for a good long while.
(Thats not true, Im ordering a chinese Dimachaeron soon but Im painting it a different scheme to sell, so it doesnt count)
jy2 wrote: Now with that said, at 1850 double-CAD, I'd probably run something like this:
28x Gargoyles
27x Gargoyles
55 Gargoyles? That is intense. Probably pretty good too. Personally I think it would work better in 3 broods (20, 20, 15), that way they have to divide their fire to keep the tarpit away, and generally 20 is about the biggest squad of gargs that you can easily make use of.
It also begs the question, why so many rippers? If you are flooding the board with gribbles, wouldn't swapping 2 of the squads of rippers for hormagants be better synergy with the rest of your list?
jy2 wrote: Now with that said, at 1850 double-CAD, I'd probably run something like this:
28x Gargoyles
27x Gargoyles
55 Gargoyles? That is intense. Probably pretty good too. Personally I think it would work better in 3 broods (20, 20, 15), that way they have to divide their fire to keep the tarpit away, and generally 20 is about the biggest squad of gargs that you can easily make use of.
It also begs the question, why so many rippers? If you are flooding the board with gribbles, wouldn't swapping 2 of the squads of rippers for hormagants be better synergy with the rest of your list?
The main reason I went 2 squads instead of 3 is because 3 units then becomes a liability in 2 missions - Victory Points and the Scouring. Moreover, a larger unit becomes more survivable and easier to buff with psychic powers such as Catalyst and by being able to form a longer conga-line into the Malanthrope's bubble. Generally, I usually either run MSU min-squad units (a la Skyblight) or I try to run the largest unit that I can.
As for hormagants, you are perfectly fine to substitute some of the rippers for hormagants if you'd like. Personally, I prefer to play a more fluid army with the flexibility and mobility to start on the table almost anywhere. That is why almost all of my units can deepstrike if necessary (other than the biovores and malan-in-a-box). What I love doing is to deploy my core (malan-in-a-box, biovores) and then spread out my objectives away from my core. Thus, if the opponent goes after them, I deepstrike my troops into the 4 corners (or where I place the objectives) and now my opponent has just wasted valuable movement towards my core and needs to redirect his movement. For me, mobility and flexibility is the key to my success and thus most of my units in my army will reflect this.
I haven't played in a while, but a couple of my buddies have been talking about a 1500 pt tourney that might be run down at the shop soon. We don't tend to restrict much, but I am tempted to run the following list;
I don't plan to put much in reserves, except maybe those rippers for grabbing mid or enemy backfield objectives while they are busy with the rest of the army. I would put the Gargoyles inside the Harridan and run it plus the Flyrants up the middle, and leave the Genestealers on back objectives. Think it has merit?
Unyielding Hunger wrote: I haven't played in a while, but a couple of my buddies have been talking about a 1500 pt tourney that might be run down at the shop soon. We don't tend to restrict much, but I am tempted to run the following list;
I don't plan to put much in reserves, except maybe those rippers for grabbing mid or enemy backfield objectives while they are busy with the rest of the army. I would put the Gargoyles inside the Harridan and run it plus the Flyrants up the middle, and leave the Genestealers on back objectives. Think it has merit?
drop the stealers man. replace with zoan, venom and another ripper swarm.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: I haven't played in a while, but a couple of my buddies have been talking about a 1500 pt tourney that might be run down at the shop soon. We don't tend to restrict much, but I am tempted to run the following list;
I don't plan to put much in reserves, except maybe those rippers for grabbing mid or enemy backfield objectives while they are busy with the rest of the army. I would put the Gargoyles inside the Harridan and run it plus the Flyrants up the middle, and leave the Genestealers on back objectives. Think it has merit?
drop the stealers man. replace with zoan, venom and another ripper swarm.
I'm trying to understand the logic in the Zoanthrope. Dropping the stealers, I understand, since I brought them in to take up the 140pts of filler that I had to use on a troop choice. The Venomthrope is an option, though I do not know how valuable it is going to be past the first turn. All the important units will be far outside of the bubble, and what job would it have then beyond just sitting on an objective or just sitting on a trio of rippers that should be out of LOS fairly easily. I wonder if I should just nab all the remaining points in DSing Rippers. What was your thought process behind the Zoanthrope and Venomthrope Wilson?
Unyielding Hunger wrote: I haven't played in a while, but a couple of my buddies have been talking about a 1500 pt tourney that might be run down at the shop soon. We don't tend to restrict much, but I am tempted to run the following list;
I don't plan to put much in reserves, except maybe those rippers for grabbing mid or enemy backfield objectives while they are busy with the rest of the army. I would put the Gargoyles inside the Harridan and run it plus the Flyrants up the middle, and leave the Genestealers on back objectives. Think it has merit?
drop the stealers man. replace with zoan, venom and another ripper swarm.
I'm trying to understand the logic in the Zoanthrope. Dropping the stealers, I understand, since I brought them in to take up the 140pts of filler that I had to use on a troop choice. The Venomthrope is an option, though I do not know how valuable it is going to be past the first turn. All the important units will be far outside of the bubble, and what job would it have then beyond just sitting on an objective or just sitting on a trio of rippers that should be out of LOS fairly easily. I wonder if I should just nab all the remaining points in DSing Rippers. What was your thought process behind the Zoanthrope and Venomthrope Wilson?
Zoanthrope for the 2 WC + an invulnerable backfield unit to support others and the venom to provide cover on first turn.
but on second thought that might not work as good with the rest of the list. I can understand why you went for the stealers but I'd say you're better off with rippers.
Wilson wrote: Zoanthrope for the 2 WC + an invulnerable backfield unit to support others and the venom to provide cover on first turn.
but on second thought that might not work as good with the rest of the list. I can understand why you went for the stealers but I'd say you're better off with rippers.
And I can agree with that. The question is just what to do with 95 points past the obligatory 2 Ripper units. Realistically, the opponent is going to have his hands full with 3 very insane target priority issues so I should have some excellent board control.
Wilson wrote: Zoanthrope for the 2 WC + an invulnerable backfield unit to support others and the venom to provide cover on first turn.
but on second thought that might not work as good with the rest of the list. I can understand why you went for the stealers but I'd say you're better off with rippers.
And I can agree with that. The question is just what to do with 95 points past the obligatory 2 Ripper units. Realistically, the opponent is going to have his hands full with 3 very insane target priority issues so I should have some excellent board control.
Wilson wrote: Zoanthrope for the 2 WC + an invulnerable backfield unit to support others and the venom to provide cover on first turn.
but on second thought that might not work as good with the rest of the list. I can understand why you went for the stealers but I'd say you're better off with rippers.
And I can agree with that. The question is just what to do with 95 points past the obligatory 2 Ripper units. Realistically, the opponent is going to have his hands full with 3 very insane target priority issues so I should have some excellent board control.
Do you have a harridan?
I want one so bad but it's just so fricking big!
Of course, I could never run it if I never had it, now could I? That being said, it's in...6 pieces on the bench here next to me. Working on finishing painting it this weekend. Probably going to finish the wing I am working on tonight after the wedding dies down here. Then I can wake up in the morning and have most of the day to finish the other wing and 2 side talons to finish the model. Also, when you say it is too big, are you talking about it being too big to transport? If so...there are plenty of options to actually transport it in a rather small area. I've got mine pinned and it's actually fairly compact once it is deconstructed. Want me to post some pictures?
Wilson wrote: Zoanthrope for the 2 WC + an invulnerable backfield unit to support others and the venom to provide cover on first turn.
but on second thought that might not work as good with the rest of the list. I can understand why you went for the stealers but I'd say you're better off with rippers.
And I can agree with that. The question is just what to do with 95 points past the obligatory 2 Ripper units. Realistically, the opponent is going to have his hands full with 3 very insane target priority issues so I should have some excellent board control.
Do you have a harridan?
I want one so bad but it's just so fricking big!
Of course, I could never run it if I never had it, now could I? That being said, it's in...6 pieces on the bench here next to me. Working on finishing painting it this weekend. Probably going to finish the wing I am working on tonight after the wedding dies down here. Then I can wake up in the morning and have most of the day to finish the other wing and 2 side talons to finish the model. Also, when you say it is too big, are you talking about it being too big to transport? If so...there are plenty of options to actually transport it in a rather small area. I've got mine pinned and it's actually fairly compact once it is deconstructed. Want me to post some pictures?
please do! If I can get it into a battle foam case then i'll pick one up from Forgery world.
Wilson wrote: Zoanthrope for the 2 WC + an invulnerable backfield unit to support others and the venom to provide cover on first turn.
but on second thought that might not work as good with the rest of the list. I can understand why you went for the stealers but I'd say you're better off with rippers.
And I can agree with that. The question is just what to do with 95 points past the obligatory 2 Ripper units. Realistically, the opponent is going to have his hands full with 3 very insane target priority issues so I should have some excellent board control.
Since it is really filler points maybe spore mines for an annoyance unit, or perhaps sky-slahers as they are fast as rippers put get hammer of wrath.
Wilson wrote: Zoanthrope for the 2 WC + an invulnerable backfield unit to support others and the venom to provide cover on first turn.
but on second thought that might not work as good with the rest of the list. I can understand why you went for the stealers but I'd say you're better off with rippers.
And I can agree with that. The question is just what to do with 95 points past the obligatory 2 Ripper units. Realistically, the opponent is going to have his hands full with 3 very insane target priority issues so I should have some excellent board control.
Since it is really filler points maybe spore mines for an annoyance unit, or perhaps sky-slahers as they are fast as rippers put get hammer of wrath.
Had a game against a high school kid whos been making the rounds wiping the floor with everyone at the store today with my tournament list. He brought an unbound 1850 Tau list, with 3 riptides/longstrike tank/3x large missile side unit/pathfinders/fire warriors/deep striking crisis suits.
I went first and all 4 tyrants took out a missileside unit, so 3 sides and 6 drones took 960pts worth of shooting. However after that it was all a breeze. He had good target priority but he definitely thought Id go after his Riptides, which I never took a shot at the entire game. They were basically all that was left besides a few broadsides that were tarpitted by my 30 gargoyle squad. I simply outplayed him, but I think he learned a lot and that MSU can be tricky to deal with. I ended the game at turn 4 losing only 1 Flyrant/carnifex and many Gargoyles. I commend the dude for having a good attitude the entire time though, I think he learned a lot.
It didnt help me practice too much though for the tourney, hopefully the wife and I can play her Serpent spam list tomorrow.
Wilson wrote: Zoanthrope for the 2 WC + an invulnerable backfield unit to support others and the venom to provide cover on first turn.
but on second thought that might not work as good with the rest of the list. I can understand why you went for the stealers but I'd say you're better off with rippers.
And I can agree with that. The question is just what to do with 95 points past the obligatory 2 Ripper units. Realistically, the opponent is going to have his hands full with 3 very insane target priority issues so I should have some excellent board control.
Since it is really filler points maybe spore mines for an annoyance unit, or perhaps sky-slahers as they are fast as rippers put get hammer of wrath.
lol spore mines.
Well yeah, if it had been anything besides filler points would not have even suggested them. use to able to do a little deployment forcing with them in the old codex, but they have lost even that usefullness.
Iechine wrote: Had a game against a high school kid whos been making the rounds wiping the floor with everyone at the store today with my tournament list. He brought an unbound 1850 Tau list, with 3 riptides/longstrike tank/3x large missile side unit/pathfinders/fire warriors/deep striking crisis suits.
I went first and all 4 tyrants took out a missileside unit, so 3 sides and 6 drones took 960pts worth of shooting. However after that it was all a breeze. He had good target priority but he definitely thought Id go after his Riptides, which I never took a shot at the entire game. They were basically all that was left besides a few broadsides that were tarpitted by my 30 gargoyle squad. I simply outplayed him, but I think he learned a lot and that MSU can be tricky to deal with. I ended the game at turn 4 losing only 1 Flyrant/carnifex and many Gargoyles. I commend the dude for having a good attitude the entire time though, I think he learned a lot.
It didnt help me practice too much though for the tourney, hopefully the wife and I can play her Serpent spam list tomorrow.
For anyone else reading, this is exactly how you play against Tau (regardless of your own list). Riptides are going to be amazingly cost effective no matter what, allowing them to make their points back even FURTHER in shots absorbed with their crazy about of tank and range dictation for a <200 pt model is just making them an even better investment for the Tau player. You are best off just ignoring them and focusing on taking out Pathfinders > Broadsides > Crisis suits, often in that order (but prioritize as needed), as shooting at these models takes a lot more firepower off the board per shot than shooting at a Riptide does (by a big margin). You won't win every game against a good Tau list doing this because they are just that good, but I don't think you'll win any if you focus Riptides first, giving the other 1300 pts of their army unwatered down shooting for at least the first 2 turns of the game. Hit hard and fast and aim to damage some of the lighter units, Riptides can't win a game by themselves and it's a matter of time before they get bogged down in CC with something (pretty much any unit in our dex will do just fine, even trooptax Terms!).
For everyone that is running a Venom in a box, Is there a particular you guys are using a Bastion instead of a Bunker in the lists? I mean some thing like this:
Fortificaions:
Bunker 75pt
3 sections of barricade
or
Bunker 75pt
coms relay
1 section of barricade
All both options are the same as a bunker and make better use of both the points and the VT's shrouding.
For a bit more you could do a Bunker and a voidsheild at 80pts. I am just curious or has the Bastion just been habit?
Iechine wrote: Had a game against a high school kid whos been making the rounds wiping the floor with everyone at the store today with my tournament list. He brought an unbound 1850 Tau list, with 3 riptides/longstrike tank/3x large missile side unit/pathfinders/fire warriors/deep striking crisis suits.
I went first and all 4 tyrants took out a missileside unit, so 3 sides and 6 drones took 960pts worth of shooting. However after that it was all a breeze. He had good target priority but he definitely thought Id go after his Riptides, which I never took a shot at the entire game. They were basically all that was left besides a few broadsides that were tarpitted by my 30 gargoyle squad. I simply outplayed him, but I think he learned a lot and that MSU can be tricky to deal with. I ended the game at turn 4 losing only 1 Flyrant/carnifex and many Gargoyles. I commend the dude for having a good attitude the entire time though, I think he learned a lot.
It didnt help me practice too much though for the tourney, hopefully the wife and I can play her Serpent spam list tomorrow.
No skyfire bursttides I assume. Skyfire bursttides, and skyrays are what demolishes tyranids, a tau list without them is pretty manageable, though I understand how it would be annihilating other players. No buffmander either I take it.
barnowl wrote: For everyone that is running a Venom in a box, Is there a particular you guys are using a Bastion instead of a Bunker in the lists? I mean some thing like this:
Fortificaions:
Bunker 75pt
3 sections of barricade
or
Bunker 75pt
coms relay
1 section of barricade
All both options are the same as a bunker and make better use of both the points and the VT's shrouding.
For a bit more you could do a Bunker and a voidsheild at 80pts. I am just curious or has the Bastion just been habit?
Barricades are 10-pts each so the above 2 configurations should be 85-pts unless you take out 1 barricade each.
I believe the main reason why most people don't run a bunker is because they don't own the Stronghold Assault book. Bastion is included in the main book and so everyone can run it. Personally, I like the bastion because it is taller and thus is able to act as a LOS-blocker for my flyrants (or even the dimachaeron if I need). Unfortunately, I don't believe the bunker can do that.
Iechine wrote: Had a game against a high school kid whos been making the rounds wiping the floor with everyone at the store today with my tournament list. He brought an unbound 1850 Tau list, with 3 riptides/longstrike tank/3x large missile side unit/pathfinders/fire warriors/deep striking crisis suits.
I went first and all 4 tyrants took out a missileside unit, so 3 sides and 6 drones took 960pts worth of shooting. However after that it was all a breeze. He had good target priority but he definitely thought Id go after his Riptides, which I never took a shot at the entire game. They were basically all that was left besides a few broadsides that were tarpitted by my 30 gargoyle squad. I simply outplayed him, but I think he learned a lot and that MSU can be tricky to deal with. I ended the game at turn 4 losing only 1 Flyrant/carnifex and many Gargoyles. I commend the dude for having a good attitude the entire time though, I think he learned a lot.
It didnt help me practice too much though for the tourney, hopefully the wife and I can play her Serpent spam list tomorrow.
For anyone else reading, this is exactly how you play against Tau (regardless of your own list). Riptides are going to be amazingly cost effective no matter what, allowing them to make their points back even FURTHER in shots absorbed with their crazy about of tank and range dictation for a <200 pt model is just making them an even better investment for the Tau player. You are best off just ignoring them and focusing on taking out Pathfinders > Broadsides > Crisis suits, often in that order (but prioritize as needed), as shooting at these models takes a lot more firepower off the board per shot than shooting at a Riptide does (by a big margin). You won't win every game against a good Tau list doing this because they are just that good, but I don't think you'll win any if you focus Riptides first, giving the other 1300 pts of their army unwatered down shooting for at least the first 2 turns of the game. Hit hard and fast and aim to damage some of the lighter units, Riptides can't win a game by themselves and it's a matter of time before they get bogged down in CC with something (pretty much any unit in our dex will do just fine, even trooptax Terms!).
You may have outplayed him after that but you got super lucky with the Flyrants.
48 shots would have scored you 35 wounds which would have statistically resulted in 5-6 wounds taken. Out of 3 large broadside units, that would have only been 1 unit out of 3 taken down!
Unless you are using something other than devourers?
Iechine wrote: Had a game against a high school kid whos been making the rounds wiping the floor with everyone at the store today with my tournament list. He brought an unbound 1850 Tau list, with 3 riptides/longstrike tank/3x large missile side unit/pathfinders/fire warriors/deep striking crisis suits.
I went first and all 4 tyrants took out a missileside unit, so 3 sides and 6 drones took 960pts worth of shooting. However after that it was all a breeze. He had good target priority but he definitely thought Id go after his Riptides, which I never took a shot at the entire game. They were basically all that was left besides a few broadsides that were tarpitted by my 30 gargoyle squad. I simply outplayed him, but I think he learned a lot and that MSU can be tricky to deal with. I ended the game at turn 4 losing only 1 Flyrant/carnifex and many Gargoyles. I commend the dude for having a good attitude the entire time though, I think he learned a lot.
It didnt help me practice too much though for the tourney, hopefully the wife and I can play her Serpent spam list tomorrow.
For anyone else reading, this is exactly how you play against Tau (regardless of your own list). Riptides are going to be amazingly cost effective no matter what, allowing them to make their points back even FURTHER in shots absorbed with their crazy about of tank and range dictation for a <200 pt model is just making them an even better investment for the Tau player. You are best off just ignoring them and focusing on taking out Pathfinders > Broadsides > Crisis suits, often in that order (but prioritize as needed), as shooting at these models takes a lot more firepower off the board per shot than shooting at a Riptide does (by a big margin). You won't win every game against a good Tau list doing this because they are just that good, but I don't think you'll win any if you focus Riptides first, giving the other 1300 pts of their army unwatered down shooting for at least the first 2 turns of the game. Hit hard and fast and aim to damage some of the lighter units, Riptides can't win a game by themselves and it's a matter of time before they get bogged down in CC with something (pretty much any unit in our dex will do just fine, even trooptax Terms!).
You may have outplayed him after that but you got super lucky with the Flyrants.
48 shots would have scored you 35 wounds which would have statistically resulted in 5-6 wounds taken. Out of 3 large broadside units, that would have only been 1 unit out of 3 taken down!
Unless you are using something other than devourers?
He took out one unit of broadsides which is 6 wounds. Which is right on target with your average. He even mentions at the end of the post how one of the only surviving units at the end of the 4th turn was a tarpitted unit of broadsides. I'm assuming he removed the third unit at some other point in the game. Probably on the second or third turns...
Iechine wrote: Had a game against a high school kid whos been making the rounds wiping the floor with everyone at the store today with my tournament list. He brought an unbound 1850 Tau list, with 3 riptides/longstrike tank/3x large missile side unit/pathfinders/fire warriors/deep striking crisis suits.
I went first and all 4 tyrants took out a missileside unit, so 3 sides and 6 drones took 960pts worth of shooting. However after that it was all a breeze. He had good target priority but he definitely thought Id go after his Riptides, which I never took a shot at the entire game. They were basically all that was left besides a few broadsides that were tarpitted by my 30 gargoyle squad. I simply outplayed him, but I think he learned a lot and that MSU can be tricky to deal with. I ended the game at turn 4 losing only 1 Flyrant/carnifex and many Gargoyles. I commend the dude for having a good attitude the entire time though, I think he learned a lot.
It didnt help me practice too much though for the tourney, hopefully the wife and I can play her Serpent spam list tomorrow.
For anyone else reading, this is exactly how you play against Tau (regardless of your own list). Riptides are going to be amazingly cost effective no matter what, allowing them to make their points back even FURTHER in shots absorbed with their crazy about of tank and range dictation for a <200 pt model is just making them an even better investment for the Tau player. You are best off just ignoring them and focusing on taking out Pathfinders > Broadsides > Crisis suits, often in that order (but prioritize as needed), as shooting at these models takes a lot more firepower off the board per shot than shooting at a Riptide does (by a big margin). You won't win every game against a good Tau list doing this because they are just that good, but I don't think you'll win any if you focus Riptides first, giving the other 1300 pts of their army unwatered down shooting for at least the first 2 turns of the game. Hit hard and fast and aim to damage some of the lighter units, Riptides can't win a game by themselves and it's a matter of time before they get bogged down in CC with something (pretty much any unit in our dex will do just fine, even trooptax Terms!).
You may have outplayed him after that but you got super lucky with the Flyrants.
48 shots would have scored you 35 wounds which would have statistically resulted in 5-6 wounds taken. Out of 3 large broadside units, that would have only been 1 unit out of 3 taken down!
Unless you are using something other than devourers?
He took out one unit of broadsides which is 6 wounds. Which is right on target with your average. He even mentions at the end of the post how one of the only surviving units at the end of the 4th turn was a tarpitted unit of broadsides. I'm assuming he removed the third unit at some other point in the game. Probably on the second or third turns...
first-time poster, but long-time lurker here. This thread is pure gold, so many experienced Tyranid coaches here. I do appreciate all your insights.
To business: in november my gaming club is going to organise its annual 40K tournament. Unlike most other tournies here, they've been brave and have allowed basically everything.
Which means:
* 1750 points
* Multiple CAD allowed
* Forge World allowed
* Dataslates allowed
This tournament usually attracts about 40 people.
The only restriction is that people cannot proxy Forge World models and that they need to be able to provide the rules for any dataslates in their list, which is only fair.
Now, given such an environment, how would you construct your list?
I'm particularly interested in your opinion whether I should include my Barbed Hierodule or not. On the one hand it's a good chunk of my 1750 points gone, on the other hand maybe I need it to tackle Imperial Knights/Riptides/Wraithknights?
My first try - with Hierodule - would be something like
Living Artillery Formation
---------------------------------
3 x Warriors (1 BS)
3 x Biovore
Exocrine
which comes to 1610 points, giving me some more options.
Now my questions:
* Do you think the Hierodule is needed in this format? If not, what would you suggest to handle IK/Riptipe/WK?
* I don't really have the models to go full Skyblight, but do have a Hive Crone available. Worth including?
* If you have other remarks as far as possible lists go, I'm open for them. Model-wise, I have most things, but from Forge World I only have the Hierodule atm (but will probably order the Malanthrope before the tourny).
No skyfire bursttides I assume. Skyfire bursttides, and skyrays are what demolishes tyranids, a tau list without them is pretty manageable, though I understand how it would be annihilating other players. No buffmander either I take it.
One was a skyfire burstide, the other two ion with stims. I repeatedly hit him with paroxysm as well as the skyfiring tank. I did perils twice, however one of them resulted in my first ever roll of 6 for the invul and buffs.
The first unit of missile tides was in a large building far right, where I had deployed my entire army. Second unit was to the left of them, which is what I moved up and engaged second turn with tyrants and gargoyles making their assault. His third unit was
deployed in the only other large building on the left side, which because of my positioning was worthless until he came out of his building mid game, at which point my Mawloc reentered (she scattered on her first arrival) and took out a broadside and drones,
with the rest being destroyed by my three living tyrants.
I had good rolling as well. I was only grounded twice, a carnifex shot 8 fire warriors down in a row, I made 3 glances on the side armor of his tank. I also periled a lot though, and my Carnifexes couldnt make a save and died from massed firewarriors. I think had he deployed
his third missile side unit and other pathfinder unit closer to be more effective early on, it would have been more bloody, but still manageable.
first-time poster, but long-time lurker here. This thread is pure gold, so many experienced Tyranid coaches here. I do appreciate all your insights.
Spoiler:
To business: in november my gaming club is going to organise its annual 40K tournament. Unlike most other tournies here, they've been brave and have allowed basically everything.
Which means:
* 1750 points
* Multiple CAD allowed
* Forge World allowed
* Dataslates allowed
This tournament usually attracts about 40 people.
The only restriction is that people cannot proxy Forge World models and that they need to be able to provide the rules for any dataslates in their list, which is only fair.
Now, given such an environment, how would you construct your list?
I'm particularly interested in your opinion whether I should include my Barbed Hierodule or not. On the one hand it's a good chunk of my 1750 points gone, on the other hand maybe I need it to tackle Imperial Knights/Riptides/Wraithknights?
My first try - with Hierodule - would be something like
Living Artillery Formation
---------------------------------
3 x Warriors (1 BS)
3 x Biovore
Exocrine
which comes to 1610 points, giving me some more options.
Now my questions:
* Do you think the Hierodule is needed in this format? If not, what would you suggest to handle IK/Riptipe/WK?
* I don't really have the models to go full Skyblight, but do have a Hive Crone available. Worth including?
* If you have other remarks as far as possible lists go, I'm open for them. Model-wise, I have most things, but from Forge World I only have the Hierodule atm (but will probably order the Malanthrope before the tourny).
thanks!
Hey Polkadragon! Welcome to dakka. Always great to see a new face.
Yes, the Barbed Hierodule definitely has a place in a tournament Tyranid army. I have a friend who took his Barbed list to a tournament (of also about 40 players). He brought something like this:
He did very well. He beat my very powerful Necrons in a practice game, thanks to a Stomp from Barbie which took down 2 of my bargelords!!! He then took that list to a tournament and ended up taking 2nd Overall, only losing to Tau in the championship game.
For your remaining points, I would recommend you get a Mawloc. You have exactly enough points to fit him into your list.
You know, I hate to say it even though it does have great irony, but for a horde army, our greatest strengths lie in bringing as few models as possible. Things like our Lords of War, Flyrants, Dimas, etc are so expensive but just so much of a force multiplier to our army lists that they justify their cost far more than expected, even with the inherent issues in each unit.
Force multiplier? I don't think that's the right word to describe any of the models you listed. On top of that, even if they are allowed most our LoW are worse than codex models for the most part, with the exceptions being Harridan and Hierophant. Flyrants are good, but the Dima is bottom 3 garbage. While I agree that staying away from the griblies is definitely the way to go, cramming in as many MCs is very important, Carnifexes Exocrines Mawlocs all fairly cheap MCs and all very good. I think this gimmick of taking 4 Flyrants falls apart as soon as you come across an army with a decent amount of firepower, unlike something a bit more balanced with far less reliance on 16 T6 wounds that cost over 1000 pts all. You don't want as little models as possible, you just don't want any of the infantry crap for the most part, just because they are bad models in general. If we had decent infantry like other armies it would be a different matter, as is you pretty much just want all the good models in the dex which all happen to be expensive MCs, making us a fairly low model count army, but you don't want to aim to make it lower just because there is models that will let you. It's inherently never going to help you, and isn't at all necessary, and is generally only ok when the model is worthy it. Which Hierodules and Dimaechaerons and Swarmlords etc are not. Max Flyrants is the most justifiable, but it's a gimmick no less than any flyer spam is and as such has easy counters, even if you may not see them all that often. 4 Flyrants is gonna win a lot of games but so is a more balanced list, and not as easy to counter. Flyrant spam just seems gimmicky and lazy building to me.
But honestly, ask anyone what is the best tyranid unit.
Pretty sure the concensus will be the flyrant so why would you NOT take 4 of them if you are aiming for competitive builds ?
first-time poster, but long-time lurker here. This thread is pure gold, so many experienced Tyranid coaches here. I do appreciate all your insights.
Spoiler:
To business: in november my gaming club is going to organise its annual 40K tournament. Unlike most other tournies here, they've been brave and have allowed basically everything.
Which means:
* 1750 points
* Multiple CAD allowed
* Forge World allowed
* Dataslates allowed
This tournament usually attracts about 40 people.
The only restriction is that people cannot proxy Forge World models and that they need to be able to provide the rules for any dataslates in their list, which is only fair.
Now, given such an environment, how would you construct your list?
I'm particularly interested in your opinion whether I should include my Barbed Hierodule or not. On the one hand it's a good chunk of my 1750 points gone, on the other hand maybe I need it to tackle Imperial Knights/Riptides/Wraithknights?
My first try - with Hierodule - would be something like
Living Artillery Formation
---------------------------------
3 x Warriors (1 BS)
3 x Biovore
Exocrine
which comes to 1610 points, giving me some more options.
Now my questions:
* Do you think the Hierodule is needed in this format? If not, what would you suggest to handle IK/Riptipe/WK?
* I don't really have the models to go full Skyblight, but do have a Hive Crone available. Worth including?
* If you have other remarks as far as possible lists go, I'm open for them. Model-wise, I have most things, but from Forge World I only have the Hierodule atm (but will probably order the Malanthrope before the tourny).
thanks!
Hey Polkadragon! Welcome to dakka. Always great to see a new face.
Yes, the Barbed Hierodule definitely has a place in a tournament Tyranid army. I have a friend who took his Barbed list to a tournament (of also about 40 players). He brought something like this:
He did very well. He beat my very powerful Necrons in a practice game, thanks to a Stomp from Barbie which took down 2 of my bargelords!!! He then took that list to a tournament and ended up taking 2nd Overall, only losing to Tau in the championship game.
For your remaining points, I would recommend you get a Mawloc. You have exactly enough points to fit him into your list.
Good luck and happy hunting. Nom nom nom.....
Thanks jy2, I appreciate the insight, adding a Mawloc makes sense and might help against those pesky Tau as well
Do you feel the rest of the army synergises properly with the Hierodule? In particular, the Living Artillery? Or would you suggest to take other units to maximize the impact of the Hierodule?
cyberjonesy wrote: But honestly, ask anyone what is the best tyranid unit. Pretty sure the concensus will be the flyrant so why would you NOT take 4 of them if you are aiming for competitive builds ?
I would say the Carnifex.
The reason for not taking 4 isn't because it's not the best unit however, it's for all the reasons I stated in my post. That's why. BEst unit or not it's a unit with obvious weaknesses and while it's up to you whether or not you want to double down on this weakness, possibly spreading their AA too thin, there will be situations where you just crumple. Also, even if I bring a list far stronger in every way, many people will rather not fight Flyer spam of any sort as hitting on 6s most people hate. This is less relevant, buttoning dual CAD to spam flyers is never going to win you any friends and I enjoy having a strong competitive list that people strive to beat and will happily play at weekend house games, rather than a flyer spam list that they either have AA to counter with or do not.
Thanks jy2, I appreciate the insight, adding a Mawloc makes sense and might help against those pesky Tau as well
Do you feel the rest of the army synergises properly with the Hierodule? In particular, the Living Artillery? Or would you suggest to take other units to maximize the impact of the Hierodule?
You're welcome.
Yes, they synergize together. Both are shooty units that can also threaten the enemy in assault. Just make sure to advance your Living Artillery (at least the exocrine and warriors) along with Barbie to present a unified threat and to take some of the heat off of Barbie and the Malanthrope.
Another unit I would consider would be gargoyles to act as a screening unit and to try to pin the enemy down for Barbie to try to stomp on. You can't lose with a mawloc or gargoyles in almost any Tyranid list.
SHUPPET wrote: This is less relevant, buttoning dual CAD to spam flyers is never going to win you any games....
What?
That makes no sense at all. It's like saying spamming wave serpents in an Eldar army is never going to win you any games....
Whoops it was meant to say friends. I said it DOES win you games, but nobody is going to be like hey I love playing against Flyer spam its the most fun thing in the world, we should catch up for a beer or two on the weekend and do it again. Just doesn't really promote a friendly attitude and it's not even really a better list than other ones, it's just the easiest to play
SHUPPET wrote: This is less relevant, buttoning dual CAD to spam flyers is never going to win you any games....
What?
That makes no sense at all. It's like saying spamming wave serpents in an Eldar army is never going to win you any games....
Whoops it was meant to say friends. I said it DOES win you games, but nobody is going to be like hey I love playing against Flyer spam its the most fun thing in the world, we should catch up for a beer or two on the weekend and do it again. Just doesn't really promote a friendly attitude and it's not even really a better list than other ones, it's just the easiest to play
This is something that I worry about quite a bit. I'm one of the more competitive players in my local meta, and it is fairly easy for me to run flying circus and stomp any given opponent. In fact, there are several opponents where I feel like Dakkafexes leave them with feel-badsies. Building a tyranid list to let your opponent have a great time even when you beat them badly is quite a different skill from building a list that beats people.
I feel like I could write a whole tactica on winning while your opponent has a blast, but suffice to say, I think this is an important part of 40k that often gets overlooked online, and I understand completely the aversion to FMC spam.
You should write thgat Tactica tag. Having a friendly game without compromising the strength of your army should be promoted a lot more than it is. Especially since the easiest cheesiest build is not always the best well rounded build in the dex, i think this flyrant thing is a perfect example of that.
There is some competitive players in my local, some more casual ones, my Living Artillery nids has its rep as "Nids to beat" and some of the less competitive players love to build to beat me and try steal a game. It's a lot of fun for everyone, and the fact that I have a balanced list it's not as easy for them to counter by just bringing skyfire and counter-flyers of their own or whatever else and just turning the games into an arms race... they have to stop and think about its capabilities and improve. I'm not the only player who does a similar thing. And I'm confident my list would beat 4 Flyrants in a match up anyway, although I haven't been able to test. But yeah fun ness !
So can you make a competitive Tyranid horde army? A horde would be fun to play against. I think the reason we don't see hear about them that much is three reasons:
1. Moving 100+ models take too long to play.
2. They are overly reliant on synapse.
3. They have little offensive power.
Actually, the #1 reason that neither of you mentioned, is that you practically fold to any list with a couple of transports and a walker. AT is the weakest aspect of the Tyranid codex. It's almost critical you take what you can get, be it eGrubs, Carnifexes, even Harpies for some, Termagants are hard to justify in a sensible list, and even less so when you are forced to make them less points effecient by giving them AG just so they can hopefully glance AV10 rear armour to death in 2 turns, assuming enough make it to combat with something that moves at double it's speed, without taking too much losses.
SHUPPET wrote: Actually, the #1 reason that neither of you mentioned, is that you practically fold to any list with a couple of transports and a walker. AT is the weakest aspect of the Tyranid codex. It's almost critical you take what you can get, be it eGrubs, Carnifexes, even Harpies for some, Termagants are hard to justify in a sensible list, and even less so when you are forced to make them less points effecient by giving them AG just so they can hopefully glance AV10 rear armour to death in 2 turns, assuming enough make it to combat with something that moves at double it's speed, without taking too much losses.
Horde armies seem really hard to make playable.
I do play horde nids in tournies, as my only fully painted army dates back to 3rd, and yeah high mech lists are hard. I find an exocrine, Screamer-killer and basic dakkafex have to be there to make dents in the armor. 6th made them work because troops had to disembark to claim objectives. 7th with OS Landraiders, Rhinos, and pods is making the game much harder on the gribby horde again.
cyberjonesy wrote: But honestly, ask anyone what is the best tyranid unit.
Pretty sure the concensus will be the flyrant so why would you NOT take 4 of them if you are aiming for competitive builds ?
Purely personal opinion, but I'd personally avoid taking four just because of the "all of your eggs in one basket" nature of such a list. Putting the bulk of your resources into four models leaves you extremely vulnerable to poor dice and suffers a huge hit if one or two goes down early. Basically, if the Tyrants underperform at all the rest of your army is going to be too insignificant to really pick up the slack. The second major problem is that it leaves one vulnerable to MSU objective secured spam lists, as little over half of your army is effectively non-scoring (due to being in the air for survivability) and isn't as able to cover as many objectives by virtue of lower body count.
In contrast, a list with 1-2 Flyrants and an assortment of other (cheaper) monsters as SHUPPET mentioned or a mix of monsters and gribblies is a bit more balanced as you aren't relying on the Tyrants to shoulder all of the burden and you have more physical board control. Of course, it does depend heavily on match-up, four flyrants will do significantly better against multiple Knights for instance...
Unyielding Hunger wrote: You know, I hate to say it even though it does have great irony, but for a horde army, our greatest strengths lie in bringing as few models as possible. Things like our Lords of War, Flyrants, Dimas, etc are so expensive but just so much of a force multiplier to our army lists that they justify their cost far more than expected, even with the inherent issues in each unit.
Force multiplier? I don't think that's the right word to describe any of the models you listed.
I think the term he was looking for was "generalists", which basically means a unit that can effectively deal with just about anything thrown against it regardless of type. The Flyrant is arguably one of the best examples as it can literally deal with every target type with the standard load-out, but there are others (and pretty much every highly competitive unit is one). The main defining trait of a true "generalist" though is that it can take on stuff either as efficiently as or nearly as efficiently as a more specialized unit, meaning they are ultimately more cost effective than their points would otherwise indicate as they will rarely (if ever) be in a situation where they are rendered completely ineffective.
Not to be confused with a unit that can be used against with targets beyond their specialization, such as a Tactical Sqaud with a Las Cannon. While the Las Cannon does give them the option of attacking tanks, it doesn't make them a generalist by this definition as there is a notable opportunity cost in using the weapon (i.e. the anti-infantry capabilities of the bolt-guns). A true generalist will generally have minimal opportunity cost beyond immediate target priority needs.
SHUPPET wrote: You don't want as little models as possible, you just don't want any of the infantry crap for the most part, just because they are bad models in general. If we had decent infantry like other armies it would be a different matter, as is you pretty much just want all the good models in the dex which all happen to be expensive MCs.
I'm not entirely sure I'd agree. Apart from the unfortunately overpriced genestealers I think our infantry aren't really bad per say, just they aren't generalists. Monstrous Creatures are closer to being true generalists (smash nerf reduced this a bit) which allows them to be more efficient offensively as they can cover a wider range of target types. Defensively though, I have generally found gaunts and even Warriors significantly better, as they have an inherently larger wound pool that can be combined with the same defensive tricks available to monsters (FNP, Spore Cloud). My lists generally include at least 60 to 90 odd gaunts for their bullet sponge properties, as they take torrent fire much better than my poor monsters and function as assault grenades for more important units.
gigasnail wrote: Running 4 flyrants is kind of the opposite of putting all of your eggs in one basket.
960 points of Flyrants isn't all your eggs in one basket? That's usually over half of your list in 24 3+ save flying wounds.
More like 16 (only 4W IIRC) but yes, it is very dangerous. Three at most IMO.
With four, it's unlikely you'll get decent ground support to take and hold objectives unless you land the Flyrants...why would you want to do that mid game?
gigasnail wrote: Running 4 flyrants is kind of the opposite of putting all of your eggs in one basket.
960 points of Flyrants isn't all your eggs in one basket? That's usually over half of your list in 24 3+ save flying wounds.
More like 16 (only 4W IIRC) but yes, it is very dangerous. Three at most IMO.
With four, it's unlikely you'll get decent ground support to take and hold objectives unless you land the Flyrants...why would you want to do that mid game?
You have to ask yourself what you'll be playing however. Is it maelstrom? Eternal war? If it's the latter, everyone can agree that flyrants are the bees knees (except maybe Shuppet). A highly mobile gun platform (with haywire probably) that is also much more durable due to the new nature of grounding checks. You can focus a TON of firepower at it and it can jink if it cares. This does reduce its offensive output substantially, but it is very hard to kill if you don't want it to die. I am actually just about to start experimenting with 4, as I've just recently gotten the last one ready to go. However, I have to say that they are the DEFINITION of force multipliers. The psychic powers alone are exactly that - they make the units around them better. Plus synapse of course, which you won't get from fexes. If you're worried about ground support, is it on the offensive end or the defensive end? For defense/scoring, I love rippers. For offense, we have the Mawloc, Dakkafex, Shrikes/Raveners, the Dimachaeron if Forge World is ok. I'm working on a variation of Iechine's quad flyrant list that uses the Dima, 4 DS ripper squads, a malanthrope, a mawloc and 4 flyrants. Haven't put it all together on the table yet, but I can't imagine that it's not brutal. I bring a bastion for near-immunity to first blood (most of the time my opponent has no interest in going first).
In short, the best reason why 4 flyrants isn't putting all your eggs in one basket is because they can do just about everything. The only thing they're not great against is high toughness models like a wraithknight, and even then I've put down 2 in a single game just with volume of fire (with only 3 flyrants mind you). They have anti-armor, volume of fire, decently high strength, good durability and excellent mobility. What more could you ask for? Well maybe the freedom to assault whenever haha, but that would be pretty broken. Finally, especially in a tournament/TAC setting, as jy2 has mentioned on numerous occasions, a list like that is a pretty hard counter to many TAC lists, but it itself is TAC. So you can do well against most tournament armies because they simply don't bring that much AA, but you're just loving life shooting at ground or air targets as you please.
SHUPPET wrote: This is less relevant, buttoning dual CAD to spam flyers is never going to win you any games....
What?
That makes no sense at all. It's like saying spamming wave serpents in an Eldar army is never going to win you any games....
Whoops it was meant to say friends. I said it DOES win you games, but nobody is going to be like hey I love playing against Flyer spam its the most fun thing in the world, we should catch up for a beer or two on the weekend and do it again. Just doesn't really promote a friendly attitude and it's not even really a better list than other ones, it's just the easiest to play
This is something that I worry about quite a bit. I'm one of the more competitive players in my local meta, and it is fairly easy for me to run flying circus and stomp any given opponent. In fact, there are several opponents where I feel like Dakkafexes leave them with feel-badsies. Building a tyranid list to let your opponent have a great time even when you beat them badly is quite a different skill from building a list that beats people.
I feel like I could write a whole tactica on winning while your opponent has a blast, but suffice to say, I think this is an important part of 40k that often gets overlooked online, and I understand completely the aversion to FMC spam.
I don't see much of an issue. I normally bring at least 2 lists. Before we play, I usually ask my opponent if he wants to play competitively or is he more of a casual player. (Actually, I already know the competitive-level of the players at my LGS so there really isn't a need for me to ask anymore). Usually, I'd only bring out trip-flyrants against other players practicing their tournament lists and I almost always never run double-FOC (quad-flyrants) unless it was a competitive game planned in advance. But if it's against a stranger whom I've never played against, I usually ask (and then I still might run a casual list even if they tell me that they are competitive).
I just had been wipe out by single grey knight model!!!
Currently, our my elitist "Nidzilla" builds don't really matchup up well against the grey knights. That is because force weapons do bad things to our bugs. However, the knights will potentially have problems with our flyrants as well as with our horde builds. In any case, here are a few suggestions:
1. Target priority. Generally, try to pick off the units that you can more efficiently kill. For those you can't, use other methods such as screening and tarpitting.
2. Gang up on the unit. Do not direct your offense all over the place. If you can, try to focus down on 1 unit. Instead of putting 2W on 2 different dreadknights, just kill that 1 dreadknight instead.
3. Screen out. For some of the more dangerous units, if you can, screen them out. That's what your gribblies are for.
4. Tarpit. If you've brought a horde (or semi-horde list), your horde is always a threat to tarpit his units. If you can, then do so.
5. Play the Mission! While it may be fun to go for the kill, the Hive Mind is more evolved than that. Always keep in mind what your missions objectives are and don't get carried away with just killing stuff (unless that is the mission objective).
gigasnail wrote: Running 4 flyrants is kind of the opposite of putting all of your eggs in one basket.
960 points of Flyrants isn't all your eggs in one basket? That's usually over half of your list in 24 3+ save flying wounds.
Daemon FMC-spam has about 5 FMC's and that's about 1600-1700 pts! Yeah, it may not be the most balanced of lists, but it can and will still do well because it is still one of the more competitive Tyranid lists. Why? Because it is also a great TAC list and is very highly flexible. Any army that tailors to FMC Tyranids/Daemons will have a hard time against other TAC builds in a competitive environment (i.e. tournaments). That is why FMC Daemons still do well in tournaments and that is why quad-flyrants will do well in tournaments - in a tournament, you are forced to bring a TAC list and tailoring to any specific build will not end well for that army.
gigasnail wrote: Running 4 flyrants is kind of the opposite of putting all of your eggs in one basket.
960 points of Flyrants isn't all your eggs in one basket? That's usually over half of your list in 24 3+ save flying wounds.
More like 16 (only 4W IIRC) but yes, it is very dangerous. Three at most IMO.
With four, it's unlikely you'll get decent ground support to take and hold objectives unless you land the Flyrants...why would you want to do that mid game?
That is one of the reasons why I prefer deepstriking rippers as my troops and units such as mawlocs. They give you much more flexibility, especially in Maelstrom-type games/scenarios. Mobility is key to any army, including bugs. That's the main reason why Skyblight is still competitive and that's the reason why people like Hulksmash run a Tyranid Airforce in competitive play, with deepstriking ripper troops. BTW, the cornerstone of all of these highly mobile Tyranid armies is the flyrant. They just don't work without it.
In short, the best reason why 4 flyrants isn't putting all your eggs in one basket is because they can do just about everything. The only thing they're not great against is high toughness models like a wraithknight, and even then I've put down 2 in a single game just with volume of fire (with only 3 flyrants mind you). They have anti-armor, volume of fire, decently high strength, good durability and excellent mobility. What more could you ask for? Well maybe the freedom to assault whenever haha, but that would be pretty broken. Finally, especially in a tournament/TAC setting, as jy2 has mentioned on numerous occasions, a list like that is a pretty hard counter to many TAC lists, but it itself is TAC. So you can do well against most tournament armies because they simply don't bring that much AA, but you're just loving life shooting at ground or air targets as you please.
I just had been wipe out by single grey knight model!!!
Currently, our my elitist "Nidzilla" builds don't really matchup up well against the grey knights. That is because force weapons do bad things to our bugs. However, the knights will potentially have problems with our flyrants as well as with our horde builds. In any case, here are a few suggestions:
1. Target priority. Generally, try to pick off the units that you can more efficiently kill. For those you can't, use other methods such as screening and tarpitting.
True....
2. Gang up on the unit. Do not direct your offense all over the place. If you can, try to focus down on 1 unit. Instead of putting 2W on 2 different dreadknights, just kill that 1 dreadknight instead.
Yeah! That "single model" was a Dreadknight with flamer launcher I never heard before... Doh..
3. Screen out. For some of the more dangerous units, if you can, screen them out. That's what your gribblies are for.
Deep strike rippers swarms?
4. Tarpit. If you've brought a horde (or semi-horde list), your horde is always a threat to tarpit his units. If you can, then do so.
Yeah I have lots of gaunt and hornagant include rippers.
5. Play the Mission! While it may be fun to go for the kill, the Hive Mind is more evolved than that. Always keep in mind what your missions objectives are and don't get carried away with just killing stuff (unless that is the mission objective).
Yeah!!! I keep going after that last Brood to capture a VP! Me 10 VP vs grey knight 14VP!!!! Accord to VP I was winner until turn 5!!! Nnnnoooo! Heh.
That is one of the reasons why I prefer deepstriking rippers as my troops and units such as mawlocs. They give you much more flexibility, especially in Maelstrom-type games/scenarios. Mobility is key to any army, including bugs. That's the main reason why Skyblight is still competitive and that's the reason why people like Hulksmash run a Tyranid Airforce in competitive play, with deepstriking ripper troops. BTW, the cornerstone of all of these highly mobile Tyranid armies is the flyrant. They just don't work without it.
In short, the best reason why 4 flyrants isn't putting all your eggs in one basket is because they can do just about everything. The only thing they're not great against is high toughness models like a wraithknight, and even then I've put down 2 in a single game just with volume of fire (with only 3 flyrants mind you). They have anti-armor, volume of fire, decently high strength, good durability and excellent mobility. What more could you ask for? Well maybe the freedom to assault whenever haha, but that would be pretty broken. Finally, especially in a tournament/TAC setting, as jy2 has mentioned on numerous occasions, a list like that is a pretty hard counter to many TAC lists, but it itself is TAC. So you can do well against most tournament armies because they simply don't bring that much AA, but you're just loving life shooting at ground or air targets as you please.
QFT (quoted for truth).
Are you allowed to quote someone quoting you? I'm actually very interested to see how Hulksmash's list with the Daemon and Tyranid FMC plays out. If they had psychic synergy between the factions, I think everyone would do it. As is, I'm not sure that I see the benefit of Daemons over more Tyranid air force (except for single CAD limitations, but even then I would wonder if Skyblight doesn't do the job better)
I will not use FW models (Ripoff) or Unbound (Cheesy)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Right. How do I beat Tau who gunline and camp Submunition Railheads in the corners of the board? The guy is running...
"It's not putting all your eggs in one basket, because it wins a lot of games!"
No, it's still putting all your eggs in one basket lol.
Nobody is saying that putting all your eggs in one basket means you won't win games, it just means that there is a massive weakness to be exploited in your list.
The comment that I don't agree that Flyrants are good is far from the truth, every list I run has 2, they are quite simply the best Synapse unit and HQ we have, that much is undeniable. However, there is a massive price tag attached to that and taking 4 extremely lowers the offensive output of your list. And remember that taking the second 2 comes at another 100 pt tax requiring 2 more troop squads that although not useless, you would not otherwise want them. Yeah it's putting all your eggs in one basket, and not even as TAC as other lists, you are going to autolose to mech Flyer spam like the new DE dex that can pack 9 flyers into one FOC (probably more like 6-7 considering points, but still a lot), you are going to severely be at a disadvantage against any other TAC list that inherently has good AA (Tau is a good example) and most TAC lists should have some decent form of AA against whom, if you can focus it down first turn, then you might just break-even with how a true TAC ground Nid list would do against them, although just as often wasting your target priority on something often extremely cheap and durable (quad-gun), assuming you are able to bring it down before it does too much damage. The games where it will outperform other Nid builds are against armies that ccant bring AA, chose not to, or just have a concept far too focused on their own devices to pack any decent amount of counters (Screamerstar from last edition is an easy example of this from the top of my head).
So while Flyerspam will roflstomp some matchups, it will have a really hard time/autolose vs some others. The other competitive Tyranids build doesn't autolose to a single matchup in the game that Flyerspam doesn't also, the notable one it will have trouble with that Flyrants do not is Knights, but even that is still winnable. So while Ground based Nids may not autowin some match ups, I would prefer to have a list that can win every match up dependant on playskill, to a list that has a big advantage vs some lists, big disadvantage vs others, and dependant on playskill for the remainder. Because of this, Flyrant is NOT a TAC build at all, in fact out of our two main competitive builds it is by far the less balanced build.
People need to stop throwing buzzwords around that aren't applicable. Just because it wins a lot of tournament games, does not make it the TAC build for Nids when it is by definition NOT building a TAC list. However what it is, is It's putting all your eggs in one basket, and once again, winning tournament games doesn't make this any less true. Nobody said it won't win a lot of games, in fact it will be favoured in a good few match ups that Ground lists won't. However, it also has all the unfavourable match ups of a ground list as well as many more. The number of good matches for bad ones you trade is probably about even, however this is in no way shape or form, makin your list more TAC.
Just had to get that out of the way and explained once and for all, because all this buzzwording of terms that may or may not even be applicable to defend against sensible counter points is detrimental to good strategy discussion.
Are you allowed to quote someone quoting you? I'm actually very interested to see how Hulksmash's list with the Daemon and Tyranid FMC plays out. If they had psychic synergy between the factions, I think everyone would do it. As is, I'm not sure that I see the benefit of Daemons over more Tyranid air force (except for single CAD limitations, but even then I would wonder if Skyblight doesn't do the job better)
Went 4-1. Lost my first game on it going to 7 and due to me making a few huge mistakes. Main one being I forgot that I dispelled on a 4+ not a 6+ and it cost me my KoS and 8 Horrors to psychic shriek. Then proceeded to massacre the next 3 and have a major victory in the last cause it ended on 5.
Outside of that I loved it. Summoning was huge in conjunction with the Crones & Hive Tyrants. It allows you a very, very solid ground presence to use with the cheap Tyranid flyers. The whip Prince did some work but I think I'm going to be shifting back to an LoC and Tzeentch DP. The Whip Prince didn't add enough to outweigh the vulnerability of the KoS.
New list is going to look something like this:
Hive Tyrant Wings, 2xDual Devourers
Hive Tyrant Wings, 2xDual Devourers
Venomthrope Zoanthrope Zoanthrope
3 Rippers Deepstrike
3 Rippers Deepstrike
Crone Crone
Lord of Change Lvl 3
11 Horrors
8 Screamers
Daemon Prince Wings, Tzeentch Mark, Lvl 3
The only thing I'm considering dropping is the Screamers but I'm not 100% and I'm not totally sure what I'd swap them out for
SHUPPET wrote: "It's not putting all your eggs in one basket, because you can still win games with it!"
No, it's still putting all your eggs in one basket lol.
Nobody is saying that putting all your eggs in one basket means you won't win games, it just means that there is a massive weakness to be exploited in your list.
The comment that I don't agree that Flyrants are good is far from the truth, every list I run has 2, they are quite simply the best Synapse unit and HQ we have, that much is undeniable. However, there is a massive price tag attached to that and taking 4 extremely lowers the offensive output of your list. And remember that taking the second 2 comes at another 100 pt tax requiring 2 more troop squads that although not useless, you would not otherwise want them. Yeah it's putting all your eggs in one basket, and not even as TAC as other lists, you are going to autolose to mech Flyer spam like the new DE dex that can pack 9 flyers into one FOC (probably more like 6-7 considering points, but still a lot), you are going to severely be at a disadvantage against any other TAC list that inherently has good AA (Tau is a good example) and most TAC lists should have some decent form of AA against whom, if you can focus it down first turn, then you might just break-even with how a true TAC ground Nid list would do against them, although just as often wasting your target priority on something often extremely cheap and durable (quad-gun), assuming you are able to bring it down before it does too much damage. The games where it will outperform other Nid builds are against armies that ccant bring AA, chose not to, or just have a concept far too focused on their own devices to pack any decent amount of counters (Screamerstar from last edition is an easy example of this from the top of my head).
So while Flyerspam will roflstomp some matchups, it will have a really hard time/autolose vs some others. The other competitive Tyranids build doesn't autolose to a single matchup in the game that Flyerspam doesn't also, the notable one it will have trouble with that Flyrants do not is Knights, but even that is still winnable. So while Ground based Nids may not autowin some match ups, I would prefer to have a list that can win every match up dependant on playskill, to a list that has a big advantage vs some lists, big disadvantage vs others, and dependant on playskill for the remainder. Because of this, Flyrant is NOT a TAC build at all, in fact out of our two main competitive builds it is by far the less balanced build.
People need to stop throwing buzzwords around that aren't applicable. Just because it wins a lot of tournament games, does not make it the TAC build for Nids when it is by definition NOT building a TAC list. However what it is, is It's putting all your eggs in one basket, and once again, winning tournament games doesn't make this any less true. Nobody said it won't win a lot of games, in fact it will be favoured in a good few match ups that Ground lists won't. However, it also has all the unfavourable match ups of a ground list as well as many more. The number of good matches for bad ones you trade is probably about even, however this is in no way shape or form, makin your list more TAC.
Just had to get that out of the way and explained once and for all, because all this buzzwording of terms that may or may not even be applicable to defend against sensible counter points is detrimental to good strategy discussion.
Shuppet, I think you're misunderstanding me. I must not be making my point clearly. When I say that a quad-flyrant list is a good TAC list I mean that it is good against other TAC lists. Yes, tau will give it trouble. Tau are problematic for Nids in general. However, it's worth pointing out that with the changes to Skyfire and Interceptor, it became more expensive and niche for even Tau to deal with flyer spam. Their Skyrays are excellent though. Your example of DE Flyer spam is not, however, a TAC list. The DE flyers are worse than they were in the old dex. Flyer spam is not their most competitive build because it has serious vulnerabilities, not the least of which is the necessity to get the drop on other air units. Otherwise, the planes are going to fold like a wet paper bag.
I'd certainly be interested to know what match-ups you think are good for a ground list that are bad for a flyrant list? And when you say that you sacrifice offense with two more flyrants, what are you proposing that add more offense? Carnifexes? I like them for sure, but they are slow and lack range. Whereas a carnifex has an effective threat range of 24", the flyrant has a 42" threat range. Although Carnifexes are about half the cost of a flyrant, it will take, on average, six times as many shots to bring a flyrant down. That's not even taking into account synapse, mobility, better CC ability, and psychic powers that can buff you or hurt the enemy. Oh and that haywire flamer (ignores cover remember). It's like the malanthrope - the list of good things about a Flyrant just goes on and on.
As for the troop tax that 4 flyrants impose, I find little issue taking 4 troops at 1750/1850. Feels like the right amount to me. Especially since they are so durable per wound. I understand that you have a personal preference towards a more ground-based list - that's completely fine. However, in my experience, most of the time Skyblight and Quad-Flyrants will obliterate any opposing anti-air, leaving the Tyranid flyers (which are the majority of the army) free to move around relatively unmolested. The fact that they can rinse and repeat this procedure against a great many TAC armies is why they are considered TAC (and why they win many games). Just like how the Eldar Wave Serpent is a great TAC unit that finds its way into lists because it can do so many things well, so too is our Flyrant a great TAC unit, and spamming it as much as possible, with the proper support, can still make a very good TAC army. I hope this effectively adds to good strategy discussion
it's not really a liability when it's already arguably the best and most versatile unit in the codex. there's no troop tax to taking 4 flyrants for me; i'm already running 3-4 ripper units so it's all the same.
the only reason i don't run 4 flyrants is because we don't do dual CAD here often; though self-ally seems to be in.
Just ordered a Dimachaeron. Its to paint and sell, but I will certainly try it out in a game or two for giggles.
Less than two weeks until Mechanicon and Im running out of ways to practice. My shift work got extended so I cant make it to the weekend high traffic games, I can just play against Serpent Spam at home. They wont have the new Dark Eldar to go against so I have no WWP woes to worry about, but since its my first GT I dont think I should go in with too many expectations.
3. Screen out. For some of the more dangerous units, if you can, screen them out. That's what your gribblies are for.
Deep strike rippers swarms?
Although rippers can also be used as screeners - and I have done that before - normally, you have to play it differently with rippers. With rippers, it's more about positioning. I call it Misdirection. Here is how I play my rippers.
First of all, when you play objectives, spread them out (preferable behind LOS blocking terrain or in ruins). Do not place them bunched up or centralized. Rather, spread them to the 4 corners.
Then, I usually place my "core" either in the center and away from the objectives or just by 1 of the objectives. BTW, the core of my army usually includes my bastion, malanthrope and perhaps some gargoyles or biovores. Now you have to play your "core" as actual sacrificial units. They will be "bait" for your opponent's offense. You may lose your "core" but that is ok. In this case, your core is actually a distraction unit(s). He should be moving his offense towards it unless he is running a shooty army.
Then when your rippers come in, deepstrike them onto the far objectives and then run them out of LOS of shooty units if possible. Unless your opponent's army is highly mobile (a la Necrons, FMC-spam or serpent-spam Eldar), he will now be out of position with regards to the objectives and you will have the advantage. BTW, this is basically my philosophy of Positional Dominance - if you can control the Movement Phase, then you will inherently have an advantage in Objectives-based scenarios.
BTW, the core of my army usually includes my bastion, malanthrope and perhaps some gargoyles or biovores.
Ah, the Bastion. is it worth it? I would think so however I ask for your opinion.
I have a tournament in November and d I'm struggling with what to take.
the restrictions for the tournament are basically;
1750 pts
No Come the Apocalypse Allies
LOW are allowed but may not cost more than 400 pts - No Hierodule for me :[
1 CAD only - No Self Alllies
1 Formation allowed.
Forge World allowed.
Fortifications allowed.
Missions will be Eternal War only with 3 unique secret objectives:-
Survive - nominate one of your units and keep them alive for the duration of the game
Destroy - nominate one of your enemy units and destroy it before the game is done.
Take and Hold- nominate a piece of terrain and have a unit inside it at the end of the game.
you can only use one objective per game.
So, with that in mind, can I viably run the below list? Would you run it?
That is one of the reasons why I prefer deepstriking rippers as my troops and units such as mawlocs. They give you much more flexibility, especially in Maelstrom-type games/scenarios. Mobility is key to any army, including bugs. That's the main reason why Skyblight is still competitive and that's the reason why people like Hulksmash run a Tyranid Airforce in competitive play, with deepstriking ripper troops. BTW, the cornerstone of all of these highly mobile Tyranid armies is the flyrant. They just don't work without it.
In short, the best reason why 4 flyrants isn't putting all your eggs in one basket is because they can do just about everything. The only thing they're not great against is high toughness models like a wraithknight, and even then I've put down 2 in a single game just with volume of fire (with only 3 flyrants mind you). They have anti-armor, volume of fire, decently high strength, good durability and excellent mobility. What more could you ask for? Well maybe the freedom to assault whenever haha, but that would be pretty broken. Finally, especially in a tournament/TAC setting, as jy2 has mentioned on numerous occasions, a list like that is a pretty hard counter to many TAC lists, but it itself is TAC. So you can do well against most tournament armies because they simply don't bring that much AA, but you're just loving life shooting at ground or air targets as you please.
QFT (quoted for truth).
Are you allowed to quote someone quoting you? I'm actually very interested to see how Hulksmash's list with the Daemon and Tyranid FMC plays out. If they had psychic synergy between the factions, I think everyone would do it. As is, I'm not sure that I see the benefit of Daemons over more Tyranid air force (except for single CAD limitations, but even then I would wonder if Skyblight doesn't do the job better)
You can quote me quoting you quoting me any day, buddy.
I think Hulk's list has a place and is potentially very good. Anytime you can add free units to your army, you are boosting it significantly because you are forcing your opponent to allocate his resources into killing those free units. That just makes your army more survivable and gives them more time to do more damage.
On that note, the tervigon - unlike what many are claiming as garbage - is still a good unit. He is no longer the all-star that he used to be in our previous edition, but he is still a solid choice in most Tyranid armies.
Went 4-1. Lost my first game on it going to 7 and due to me making a few huge mistakes. Main one being I forgot that I dispelled on a 4+ not a 6+ and it cost me my KoS and 8 Horrors to psychic shriek. Then proceeded to massacre the next 3 and have a major victory in the last cause it ended on 5.
Outside of that I loved it. Summoning was huge in conjunction with the Crones & Hive Tyrants. It allows you a very, very solid ground presence to use with the cheap Tyranid flyers. The whip Prince did some work but I think I'm going to be shifting back to an LoC and Tzeentch DP. The Whip Prince didn't add enough to outweigh the vulnerability of the KoS.
New list is going to look something like this:
Spoiler:
Hive Tyrant
Wings, 2xDual Devourers
Hive Tyrant
Wings, 2xDual Devourers
Venomthrope
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
3 Rippers
Deepstrike
3 Rippers
Deepstrike
Crone
Crone
Lord of Change
Lvl 3
11 Horrors
8 Screamers
Daemon Prince
Wings, Tzeentch Mark, Lvl 3
The only thing I'm considering dropping is the Screamers but I'm not 100% and I'm not totally sure what I'd swap them out for
That would be what I would run as well if I were to do a Tyranid/Daemon combo - go with Tzeentch. The LoC is probably the best greater non-named daemon currently.
BTW, the core of my army usually includes my bastion, malanthrope and perhaps some gargoyles or biovores.
Ah, the Bastion. is it worth it? I would think so however I ask for your opinion.
I have a tournament in November and d I'm struggling with what to take.
the restrictions for the tournament are basically;
1750 pts
No Come the Apocalypse Allies
LOW are allowed but may not cost more than 400 pts - No Hierodule for me :[
1 CAD only - No Self Alllies
1 Formation allowed.
Forge World allowed.
Fortifications allowed.
Missions will be Eternal War only with 3 unique secret objectives:-
Survive - nominate one of your units and keep them alive for the duration of the game
Destroy - nominate one of your enemy units and destroy it before the game is done.
Take and Hold- nominate a piece of terrain and have a unit inside it at the end of the game.
you can only use one objective per game.
So, with that in mind, can I viably run the below list? Would you run it?
I take the bastion because it is a great force-multiplier that makes your army such much more durable. Without it, you may not survive the alpha-strike of some armies.
I also take it because you will need it against some of the top armies - Drop pod marines, Tau and Eldar serpent-spam. You will definitely see these types of armies in competitive play and without the bastion, your malanthrope/venomthrope will die on Turn 1 and the rest of the army will be much easier to kill.
Now if you don't care about LOS-blocker, then you can go for the cheaper Imperial Bunkers in the Stronghold Assault book. Also, if you've got the Stronghold Assault, you can add a Void Shield to your bastion/bunker, thus making your army even more survivable.
With regards to your list, if you want to play competitively, drop the dimachaeron for the bastion and some gargoyles. Dimey is fun and pretty-to-look-at, but unfortunately, he is NOT a competitive unit. Now that doesn't mean he can't work in a competitive list. It just means that he is more one-dimensional and more matchup-dependent then many of hte other units in the codex. Against the wrong army (and this will happen more often than not), he won't contribute much at all.
I will not use FW models (Ripoff) or Unbound (Cheesy)
Tau is a tough matchup for bugs generally. Against them, you have to have 2 things - mobility and firepower. Yes, that's right, firepower. Assault bugs just don't fare well against the new Tau. What you need to do is to overload them with fast units that can also shoot the bejesus out of them. Units such as dakka flyrants and mawlocs with their long reach are ideal against Tau. Biovores are also good due to their long reach and ability to kill Tau troops out in the open without any saves. Gargoyles are good as they are a threat to tarpit those riptides/suits. In short, if you have to walk towards them, then most likely you are going to lose. If you can fly towards them and get to them really quickly, then you have a fighting chance.
While I agree with the LoC being the best non-named GD for the Tyranid support the Slaanesh DP is the better unit. But having adjusted to take more WC that will allow me to shoot a bit more I'm much more inclined to shift back to the LoC for the survivability aspect.
Overall having only played the version I brought to Michigan once before I'm extremely happy with it.
I take the bastion because it is a great force-multiplier that makes your army such much more durable. Without it, you may not survive the alpha-strike of some armies.
I also take it because you will need it against some of the top armies - Drop pod marines, Tau and Eldar serpent-spam. You will definitely see these types of armies in competitive play and without the bastion, your malanthrope/venomthrope will die on Turn 1 and the rest of the army will be much easier to kill.
Now if you don't care about LOS-blocker, then you can go for the cheaper Imperial Bunkers in the Stronghold Assault book. Also, if you've got the Stronghold Assault, you can add a Void Shield to your bastion/bunker, thus making your army even more survivable.
With regards to your list, if you want to play competitively, drop the dimachaeron for the bastion and some gargoyles. Dimey is fun and pretty-to-look-at, but unfortunately, he is NOT a competitive unit. Now that doesn't mean he can't work in a competitive list. It just means that he is more one-dimensional and more matchup-dependent then many of hte other units in the codex. Against the wrong army (and this will happen more often than not), he won't contribute much at all.
Let's just assume I cannot part with the Dima due to emotional needs, then what would you suggest to cut out? I know and should have said that I am aware of the Dima's capabilities being limited (so my bad for not mentioning that!) but I want to run it to see what it does against a larger array of players. ( so far its been very hit and miss vs Eldar and Marines. )
SHUPPET wrote: "It's not putting all your eggs in one basket, because it wins a lot of games!"
No, it's still putting all your eggs in one basket lol.
Nobody is saying that putting all your eggs in one basket means you won't win games, it just means that there is a massive weakness to be exploited in your list.
Spoiler:
The comment that I don't agree that Flyrants are good is far from the truth, every list I run has 2, they are quite simply the best Synapse unit and HQ we have, that much is undeniable. However, there is a massive price tag attached to that and taking 4 extremely lowers the offensive output of your list. And remember that taking the second 2 comes at another 100 pt tax requiring 2 more troop squads that although not useless, you would not otherwise want them. Yeah it's putting all your eggs in one basket, and not even as TAC as other lists, you are going to autolose to mech Flyer spam like the new DE dex that can pack 9 flyers into one FOC (probably more like 6-7 considering points, but still a lot), you are going to severely be at a disadvantage against any other TAC list that inherently has good AA (Tau is a good example) and most TAC lists should have some decent form of AA against whom, if you can focus it down first turn, then you might just break-even with how a true TAC ground Nid list would do against them, although just as often wasting your target priority on something often extremely cheap and durable (quad-gun), assuming you are able to bring it down before it does too much damage. The games where it will outperform other Nid builds are against armies that ccant bring AA, chose not to, or just have a concept far too focused on their own devices to pack any decent amount of counters (Screamerstar from last edition is an easy example of this from the top of my head).
So while Flyerspam will roflstomp some matchups, it will have a really hard time/autolose vs some others. The other competitive Tyranids build doesn't autolose to a single matchup in the game that Flyerspam doesn't also, the notable one it will have trouble with that Flyrants do not is Knights, but even that is still winnable. So while Ground based Nids may not autowin some match ups, I would prefer to have a list that can win every match up dependant on playskill, to a list that has a big advantage vs some lists, big disadvantage vs others, and dependant on playskill for the remainder. Because of this, Flyrant is NOT a TAC build at all, in fact out of our two main competitive builds it is by far the less balanced build.
People need to stop throwing buzzwords around that aren't applicable. Just because it wins a lot of tournament games, does not make it the TAC build for Nids when it is by definition NOT building a TAC list. However what it is, is It's putting all your eggs in one basket, and once again, winning tournament games doesn't make this any less true. Nobody said it won't win a lot of games, in fact it will be favoured in a good few match ups that Ground lists won't. However, it also has all the unfavourable match ups of a ground list as well as many more. The number of good matches for bad ones you trade is probably about even, however this is in no way shape or form, makin your list more TAC.
Just had to get that out of the way and explained once and for all, because all this buzzwording of terms that may or may not even be applicable to defend against sensible counter points is detrimental to good strategy discussion.
Just want to make 1 important distinction here. There is a difference between being balanced and being a Take-All-Comer's build. However, the 2 are not mutually exclusive. That is, if the list is not balanced, it doesn't mean that it isn't a TAC list and vice versa (just because it is a TAC list doesn't mean that it has to be a completely balanced list). TAC is relative to the type of army you want to run, whether balanced or not. For example, you can have a TAC deathstar list, which is a perfect example of an unbalanced Take-All-Comer's list. Basically, to be a TAC army, you need to be able to handle multiple threats:
How do you handle horde?
How do you handle Elite units such as MC's or other deathstars?
How do you handle mech-spam?
How do you handle heavy armor, including knights and land raiders?
How do you handle flyers?
How can you grab objectives?
How can you survive superior enemy firepower?
How can you deal with enemy assault units, including enemy deathstars?
How can you deal with enemy psychic powers?
What can you do when you lose a key component of your army (i.e. army redundancy)?
If you can answer most of these questions with the right tools in your army, then you've got a TAC army list.
In essence, a triple-flyrant/quad-flyrant list is a semi-deathstar list. Here you've got 720-pts in just 3 units (or 960-pts in just 4 units). But if you can build your army and still answer the above questions, then you've got yourself a TAC list. Now this is how a flyrant-spam list would handle those questions:
How do you handle horde?
Dakka firepower. Perhaps biovores, hive crone templates and pure VoF (volume-of-fire).
How do you handle Elite units such as MC's or other deathstars?
Dakka firepower, VoF, coordinated assault, mawloc burrowing or just get the hell away from them.
How do you handle mech-spam?
Dakka firepower, egrubs, vector-strikes or assault by MC's.
How do you handle heavy armor, including knights and land raiders?
Egrubs, vector-strikes or assault by MC's.
How do you handle flyers?
Dakka firepower, vector-strikes, hive crone haywires.
How can you grab objectives?
Gliding MC's, deepstriking rippers, mawlocs.
How can you survive superior enemy firepower?
Swooping MC's, malan/venom-in-box, malan/venom-out-of-box.
How can you deal with enemy assault units, including enemy deathstars?
Swooping MC's, screening units, tarpits, get the hell out of dodge.
How can you deal with enemy psychic powers?
More psyshic dice due to flyrants, Shadows.
What can you do when you lose a key component of your army (i.e. army redundancy)?
Multiple flyrants.
While I agree with the LoC being the best non-named GD for the Tyranid support the Slaanesh DP is the better unit. But having adjusted to take more WC that will allow me to shoot a bit more I'm much more inclined to shift back to the LoC for the survivability aspect.
Overall having only played the version I brought to Michigan once before I'm extremely happy with it.
Yeah, it's a trade-off between survivability and firepower. Slaanesh has potentially greater firepower, but Tzeentch is definitely more survivable.
But what seals the deal for me is Tzeentch's mobility. There's just no comparison here. The KoS is much slower and more predictable where he will summon daemon units. The LoC can just zip onto an objective, summon troops there, and then zip onto another objective. I call it pin-point Summoning.
I take the bastion because it is a great force-multiplier that makes your army such much more durable. Without it, you may not survive the alpha-strike of some armies.
I also take it because you will need it against some of the top armies - Drop pod marines, Tau and Eldar serpent-spam. You will definitely see these types of armies in competitive play and without the bastion, your malanthrope/venomthrope will die on Turn 1 and the rest of the army will be much easier to kill.
Now if you don't care about LOS-blocker, then you can go for the cheaper Imperial Bunkers in the Stronghold Assault book. Also, if you've got the Stronghold Assault, you can add a Void Shield to your bastion/bunker, thus making your army even more survivable.
With regards to your list, if you want to play competitively, drop the dimachaeron for the bastion and some gargoyles. Dimey is fun and pretty-to-look-at, but unfortunately, he is NOT a competitive unit. Now that doesn't mean he can't work in a competitive list. It just means that he is more one-dimensional and more matchup-dependent then many of hte other units in the codex. Against the wrong army (and this will happen more often than not), he won't contribute much at all.
Let's just assume I cannot part with the Dima due to emotional needs, then what would you suggest to cut out? I know and should have said that I am aware of the Dima's capabilities being limited (so my bad for not mentioning that!) but I want to run it to see what it does against a larger array of players. ( so far its been very hit and miss vs Eldar and Marines. )
If you're not willing to give up the Dimey, then you may have to break up Living Artillery. If you don't want to do that, then you're just not going to be able to fit in both the bastion and some gargoyles. So it's either the offensive benefits that LA brings to the army, or the defensive benefits that the bastion and gargoyles can bring to the army. Make your choice.
BTW, I feel that the bastion synergizes very well with LA. Put the malantrope in the bastion and then the biovores on the battlements for 2+ cover or hide them behind the bastion.
Are you allowed to quote someone quoting you? I'm actually very interested to see how Hulksmash's list with the Daemon and Tyranid FMC plays out. If they had psychic synergy between the factions, I think everyone would do it. As is, I'm not sure that I see the benefit of Daemons over more Tyranid air force (except for single CAD limitations, but even then I would wonder if Skyblight doesn't do the job better)
Went 4-1. Lost my first game on it going to 7 and due to me making a few huge mistakes. Main one being I forgot that I dispelled on a 4+ not a 6+ and it cost me my KoS and 8 Horrors to psychic shriek. Then proceeded to massacre the next 3 and have a major victory in the last cause it ended on 5.
Outside of that I loved it. Summoning was huge in conjunction with the Crones & Hive Tyrants. It allows you a very, very solid ground presence to use with the cheap Tyranid flyers. The whip Prince did some work but I think I'm going to be shifting back to an LoC and Tzeentch DP. The Whip Prince didn't add enough to outweigh the vulnerability of the KoS.
New list is going to look something like this:
Hive Tyrant
Wings, 2xDual Devourers
Hive Tyrant
Wings, 2xDual Devourers
Venomthrope
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
3 Rippers
Deepstrike
3 Rippers
Deepstrike
Crone
Crone
Lord of Change
Lvl 3
11 Horrors
8 Screamers
Daemon Prince
Wings, Tzeentch Mark, Lvl 3
The only thing I'm considering dropping is the Screamers but I'm not 100% and I'm not totally sure what I'd swap them out for
Glad to hear how it went Hulk. Do you think the crones and the six flyers are what make the list work or do you think something like this would be successful?
GUO - ML3
horrors x11
DP of Nurgle ML 3 Greater gift
That is just under 1750. For 1850 I think another 2 zoans. I would worry about kill point missions but I should have a solid base in the middle and a lot of strength 6 shots.
Couple questions. Have the screamers done will for AT? I would worry that 8 and no grimoire would not survive very long as most of the other stuff you have in the list is flying but I guess screamers usually hit one target then are wiped out after the initial charge.
Have you thought about Fatey? I know he cannot get summoning unless I missed an erreta but his ML4 for only another 35 points and his ability to reroll one dice can be huge each turn. Now 35 points might be tough to find. Did you think about a Mawloc instead of the screamers?
I think the Crones are a big part of the ability to deal with Knights. Between their haywire and St8 AP2 vectors they are hugely helpful in forcing shield directions and putting out damage.
This weekend it was only 5 FMC's and it worked pretty well. The main reason for adding the 6th is because of how vulnerable the KoS turned out to be. I like the GUO more for survivability but his prince doesn't add enough for me to want to take him over the Tzeentch DP or Slaanesh DP.
As for the screamers the reason I'm considering dropping them is they are extremely hit or miss for me. One game they just get curb stomped/wiped to almost not use and the next game they destroy 3 Serpents or hold up a soulgrinder for 8 rounds of CC while killing a Maulerfiend or murder 5-man after 5-man of marines. They're a threat but I just don't know if I can justify them for the return.
I'm not a fan of Fatey. I use the Daemons as summoning platforms and that's pretty much it. Fatey and Belakor are support when you're running other Daemon FMC's.
I've considered a Mawloc. He's on the list of things I'm thinking about. Also considering biovores, another harpy/crone, more horrors, 20 slaanesh furies, some fortifications, etc. Really the list is pretty long on what I could do with 200 more points. Even under a single CAD and Ally allowance.
3. Screen out. For some of the more dangerous units, if you can, screen them out. That's what your gribblies are for.
Deep strike rippers swarms?
Although rippers can also be used as screeners - and I have done that before - normally, you have to play it differently with rippers. With rippers, it's more about positioning. I call it Misdirection. Here is how I play my rippers.
First of all, when you play objectives, spread them out (preferable behind LOS blocking terrain or in ruins). Do not place them bunched up or centralized. Rather, spread them to the 4 corners.
Then, I usually place my "core" either in the center and away from the objectives or just by 1 of the objectives. BTW, the core of my army usually includes my bastion, malanthrope and perhaps some gargoyles or biovores. Now you have to play your "core" as actual sacrificial units. They will be "bait" for your opponent's offense. You may lose your "core" but that is ok. In this case, your core is actually a distraction unit(s). He should be moving his offense towards it unless he is running a shooty army.
Then when your rippers come in, deepstrike them onto the far objectives and then run them out of LOS of shooty units if possible. Unless your opponent's army is highly mobile (a la Necrons, FMC-spam or serpent-spam Eldar), he will now be out of position with regards to the objectives and you will have the advantage. BTW, this is basically my philosophy of Positional Dominance - if you can control the Movement Phase, then you will inherently have an advantage in Objectives-based scenarios.
1) What if your opponent has made a move to control the objective area ahead of turn 5 when you plan to win?
2) What if your opponent knows what they are doing and doesn't take the bait?
3) What if your run into another bait and hide army?
It seems like your version of "Positional Dominance" is quite a bit like my version of "surrendering board control to your opponent". It really feels like a gimmick of a strategy that depends too much on predicting what your opponent is planning on doing. I prefer a much more versatile strategy that allows me to have a board presence. My general goal is to keep my opponent bottled up in their deployment zone. If things go poorly for central board control, I can still starfish out, and since I don't have any "Bait" units, and any critical units I can overcome setbacks without losing the game if my opponent doesn't cooperate with my pregame strategy. An added benefit about maintaining board control is that you don't need the game to end of 5 to win it. You can win on 6 & 7 as well.
I'm not saying that you can't win games by surrendering board control to your opponent. You will beat the snot out of less skill players, the kind who forget it is an objective game until turn 5. It is sometimes our only chance against top tier gunlines like Tau and Eldar. But if you go in, locked into that strategy, you deny yourself victories that you could have otherwise had. I feel like it is a clear "Plan B" strategy for when you know things are about to fall apart. Thanks to the Malanthrope, we don't have to pull out Plan B nearly as often.
I think the Crones are a big part of the ability to deal with Knights. Between their haywire and St8 AP2 vectors they are hugely helpful in forcing shield directions and putting out damage.
This weekend it was only 5 FMC's and it worked pretty well. The main reason for adding the 6th is because of how vulnerable the KoS turned out to be. I like the GUO more for survivability but his prince doesn't add enough for me to want to take him over the Tzeentch DP or Slaanesh DP.
As for the screamers the reason I'm considering dropping them is they are extremely hit or miss for me. One game they just get curb stomped/wiped to almost not use and the next game they destroy 3 Serpents or hold up a soulgrinder for 8 rounds of CC while killing a Maulerfiend or murder 5-man after 5-man of marines. They're a threat but I just don't know if I can justify them for the return.
I'm not a fan of Fatey. I use the Daemons as summoning platforms and that's pretty much it. Fatey and Belakor are support when you're running other Daemon FMC's.
I've considered a Mawloc. He's on the list of things I'm thinking about. Also considering biovores, another harpy/crone, more horrors, 20 slaanesh furies, some fortifications, etc. Really the list is pretty long on what I could do with 200 more points. Even under a single CAD and Ally allowance.
What do you find yourself summoning as is most of the time? I'm sure that this varies from one situation to another greatly, but what have you found most useful? As for your idea about dropping the Screamers, it's not a bad idea unless they're supported. If you don't have a way to get them the Grimoire or shrouding, they can be pretty vulnerable. The mobility is incredibly enticing though.
3. Screen out. For some of the more dangerous units, if you can, screen them out. That's what your gribblies are for.
Deep strike rippers swarms?
Although rippers can also be used as screeners - and I have done that before - normally, you have to play it differently with rippers. With rippers, it's more about positioning. I call it Misdirection. Here is how I play my rippers.
First of all, when you play objectives, spread them out (preferable behind LOS blocking terrain or in ruins). Do not place them bunched up or centralized. Rather, spread them to the 4 corners.
Then, I usually place my "core" either in the center and away from the objectives or just by 1 of the objectives. BTW, the core of my army usually includes my bastion, malanthrope and perhaps some gargoyles or biovores. Now you have to play your "core" as actual sacrificial units. They will be "bait" for your opponent's offense. You may lose your "core" but that is ok. In this case, your core is actually a distraction unit(s). He should be moving his offense towards it unless he is running a shooty army.
Then when your rippers come in, deepstrike them onto the far objectives and then run them out of LOS of shooty units if possible. Unless your opponent's army is highly mobile (a la Necrons, FMC-spam or serpent-spam Eldar), he will now be out of position with regards to the objectives and you will have the advantage. BTW, this is basically my philosophy of Positional Dominance - if you can control the Movement Phase, then you will inherently have an advantage in Objectives-based scenarios.
1) What if your opponent has made a move to control the objective area ahead of turn 5 when you plan to win?
2) What if your opponent knows what they are doing and doesn't take the bait?
3) What if your run into another bait and hide army?
It seems like your version of "Positional Dominance" is quite a bit like my version of "surrendering board control to your opponent". It really feels like a gimmick of a strategy that depends too much on predicting what your opponent is planning on doing. I prefer a much more versatile strategy that allows me to have a board presence. My general goal is to keep my opponent bottled up in their deployment zone. If things go poorly for central board control, I can still starfish out, and since I don't have any "Bait" units, and any critical units I can overcome setbacks without losing the game if my opponent doesn't cooperate with my pregame strategy. An added benefit about maintaining board control is that you don't need the game to end of 5 to win it. You can win on 6 & 7 as well.
I'm not saying that you can't win games by surrendering board control to your opponent. You will beat the snot out of less skill players, the kind who forget it is an objective game until turn 5. It is sometimes our only chance against top tier gunlines like Tau and Eldar. But if you go in, locked into that strategy, you deny yourself victories that you could have otherwise had. I feel like it is a clear "Plan B" strategy for when you know things are about to fall apart. Thanks to the Malanthrope, we don't have to pull out Plan B nearly as often.
My philosophy of Positional Dominance basically is board control. However, Tyranids are no longer as great in doing that as they used to be, back when they had the Swarmlord commanding the army and tervigons spouting forth almost unlimited and super-charged gribblies. Nowadays, you just can't take on Imperial Knights and deathstar armies head-on. You can't survive a ground trek towards Mechdar, Tau or the Astra Militarum. You can't control the board when certain armies like White Scar bikers and Dark Eldar can just skirt around you while pelting you to death with their firepower. You need to play a smarter game and you need to adjust to your opponent's army.
Positional Dominance isn't just about clogging up the middle. While board control is an aspect of Positional Dominance, P.D. is more than just that. It is controlling your opponent's movement, whether that be controlling the middle or using misdirection to take him out of position or by forcing him to castle up and play defensively or by forcing him to split up his army when he would prefer to keep them together. If you can control the Movement of your opponents, then you will have an inherent advantage because you will be in position to claim the objectives and he will be out of position.
Now Tyranids are not the only army that can control the Movement phase. Many other armies can as well. Beaststars, the seer council, Necron wraith-spam, bargelords, wave serpents, windrider jetbikes - Eldar and Necrons are the true Masters of the Movement phases. Thus, Tyranids can be beaten in their own game, especially if they are running a predominantly ground-&-pound type of list. But if they are running flyer-heavy builds with reserve troops, then they are better able to deal with these types of high-level, top-tier armies. They have a type of flexibility that ground bugs just do not have.
Anyways, to get back to your questions:
1) What if your opponent has made a move to control the objective area ahead of turn 5 when you plan to win?
You go after their objective-holders with your flyrants, mawlocs and other shooting. Take away their ability to score, especially with the ObSec ones. When I go up against an army like the seer council, my flyrants go to pick out the jetbike troops while I feed my council a sacrificial unit a turn. And I don't wait until Turn 5 to do so. I go after them as soon as they come into the game.
2) What if your opponent knows what they are doing and doesn't take the bait?
That's fine. Then they can shoot at flying flyrants, which experienced players will be doing anyways. Against more experienced players, put your "core" by 1 objective to force them to go after it. Otherwise, you score that objective. In any case, whether they go for your "core" units or not, your flyrants will still be doing most of the heavy lifting and harassment of the enemy units.
3) What if your run into another bait and hide army?
So what? As long as your target prioritization is correct, you still go for units that matter. Keep in mind that your strategy is not reliant on your opponent going after your "bait" units. If they go after it, then good. If not, then you don't really lose much, as it is only about 150-pts of support units. More importantly, your flyrants have the mobility to quickly switch targets, to re-adjust your strategies and to re-position themselves in a more advantageous position, something that many other armies just don't have the flexibility to do.
That is true of Fatey and Belakor...if only BB. I am curious to see how my walking dakka fexes will do. I know I am slow and only have three flyers but I am hoping I can use summoning from the GUO to keep screeners in front of them. I have all the GD and and DP that can be any of the three minus Khorne. Does Khorne still have an army? I am curious to see if the Nurgle DP can be effective in assault as he has zero shooting and can still get 2+ with jinking while gliding.
Have you toyed with khorne puppies or steeds of slaanesh? I just worry steeds will melt to volume of fire with no grimoire. But oh the charge...
@luke1705
My guess is Daemonettes or Khorne puppies as they are very versatile.
@j2y and tag8833
Thank you for the discussion it is great to get additional perspectives.
I think the Crones are a big part of the ability to deal with Knights. Between their haywire and St8 AP2 vectors they are hugely helpful in forcing shield directions and putting out damage.
This weekend it was only 5 FMC's and it worked pretty well. The main reason for adding the 6th is because of how vulnerable the KoS turned out to be. I like the GUO more for survivability but his prince doesn't add enough for me to want to take him over the Tzeentch DP or Slaanesh DP.
As for the screamers the reason I'm considering dropping them is they are extremely hit or miss for me. One game they just get curb stomped/wiped to almost not use and the next game they destroy 3 Serpents or hold up a soulgrinder for 8 rounds of CC while killing a Maulerfiend or murder 5-man after 5-man of marines. They're a threat but I just don't know if I can justify them for the return.
I'm not a fan of Fatey. I use the Daemons as summoning platforms and that's pretty much it. Fatey and Belakor are support when you're running other Daemon FMC's.
I've considered a Mawloc. He's on the list of things I'm thinking about. Also considering biovores, another harpy/crone, more horrors, 20 slaanesh furies, some fortifications, etc. Really the list is pretty long on what I could do with 200 more points. Even under a single CAD and Ally allowance.
What do you find yourself summoning as is most of the time? I'm sure that this varies from one situation to another greatly, but what have you found most useful? As for your idea about dropping the Screamers, it's not a bad idea unless they're supported. If you don't have a way to get them the Grimoire or shrouding, they can be pretty vulnerable. The mobility is incredibly enticing though.
I'm normally summoning Daemonettes most. Some horrors but that's normally only when I feel I have time to build up to more stuff. Generally though it's Daemonettes and Tzeentch Heralds (if I roll it). I have 20 Plaguebearers for anti-knight but didn't run into to many of them. I might have grabbed some Khorne Dogs from time to time but I haven't converted any up yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @nightwrench
Steeds & Hounds to replace the Screamers? Not really. I feel they both would probably melt for not that many wounds. But I'm more open to the hounds than the screamers. And even more open to 165pts for 20 Slaanesh Furies.
I think the Crones are a big part of the ability to deal with Knights. Between their haywire and St8 AP2 vectors they are hugely helpful in forcing shield directions and putting out damage.
This weekend it was only 5 FMC's and it worked pretty well. The main reason for adding the 6th is because of how vulnerable the KoS turned out to be. I like the GUO more for survivability but his prince doesn't add enough for me to want to take him over the Tzeentch DP or Slaanesh DP.
As for the screamers the reason I'm considering dropping them is they are extremely hit or miss for me. One game they just get curb stomped/wiped to almost not use and the next game they destroy 3 Serpents or hold up a soulgrinder for 8 rounds of CC while killing a Maulerfiend or murder 5-man after 5-man of marines. They're a threat but I just don't know if I can justify them for the return.
I'm not a fan of Fatey. I use the Daemons as summoning platforms and that's pretty much it. Fatey and Belakor are support when you're running other Daemon FMC's.
I've considered a Mawloc. He's on the list of things I'm thinking about. Also considering biovores, another harpy/crone, more horrors, 20 slaanesh furies, some fortifications, etc. Really the list is pretty long on what I could do with 200 more points. Even under a single CAD and Ally allowance.
What do you find yourself summoning as is most of the time? I'm sure that this varies from one situation to another greatly, but what have you found most useful? As for your idea about dropping the Screamers, it's not a bad idea unless they're supported. If you don't have a way to get them the Grimoire or shrouding, they can be pretty vulnerable. The mobility is incredibly enticing though.
I'm normally summoning Daemonettes most. Some horrors but that's normally only when I feel I have time to build up to more stuff. Generally though it's Daemonettes and Tzeentch Heralds (if I roll it). I have 20 Plaguebearers for anti-knight but didn't run into to many of them. I might have grabbed some Khorne Dogs from time to time but I haven't converted any up yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @nightwrench
Steeds & Hounds to replace the Screamers? Not really. I feel they both would probably melt for not that many wounds. But I'm more open to the hounds than the screamers. And even more open to 165pts for 20 Slaanesh Furies.
Is it just the points per model for the slaanesh furies and the fact they have such a large footprint? I agree on the steeds and without invisibility/grim they are melted the hounds you get more models for the points and wounds but more of a tarpit unit. I do not know if I a super excited on fast attack without support from the psychic phase or the grim.
I assume you roll only on summoning and go for 1, 4 or 5?
I'll take 6 if it's the horrors or new heralds. I mostly aim for 4 and then take primaris. 1 is good but not something I get to worked up over. My DP is almost always only going to roll once unless he rolls a 4 and then he'll roll a second time. The other one is reserved for Psychic Shriek which is amazing in conjunction with Shadows.
5 is good but not one I was going for but that's mostly because they ruled at the last event that we don't benefit from psychic focus as well as chaos focus so I had to swap stuff out for the base summoning spell.
I got beat pretty bad by a necron list tonight. A destroyer Lord made an epic ton of 2+ saves tanking 3 dakkfexes and a flyrant turn 1, then assaulted and Killed a dakkafex, a Malanthrope, and 20 Gargoyles. I rolled really poorly on the carnifex and never even caused a wound. Then came out of assault and help kill my bastion. That was bad enough, but on his turn 2 a Monolith ate one of my full health flyrants. Strength test, always fail on 6's. That left me significantly out gunned when his Flyers came in. My other flyrant hung in for another 2 turns but my exocrine failed 5 of 6 3+ armors saves. We were playing BAO mission and it would have been 5 (primary + Line Breaker) to 6 (secondary, plus first blood, Linebreaker, and warlord) on turn 5. It went on to turn 6, and he got a perfect 10. Kinda humiliating.
I saw that Monolith on the table, and I was sure I would win this game. Nothing went my way.
I feel like more than any other army, bad dice can hurt me against necrons. Part of it is that when a necron players gets hot rolling 6's those wounds pile up fast. I wish I could figure out a list or tactical tweak that made me a little more consistent against necrons.
I know this isn't a Necron Tactica thread, but I really feel like Necrons matchup much better against us when they don't have barge lords. They are good, but so pricey. It frees them up to add a few more flying crescent rolls which are really good for their points, and can deliver Ob sec and Dakka quickly to quite a bit of the board.
For those that care, here are the lists:
Spoiler:
CAD Tyrant (2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs, Wings)
Tyrant (2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs, Wings)
It sounds like you got cursed by the dice gods man, nothing to be ashamed of at all. When you start losing tyrants to single 6's and cant make any armor saves theres not much to be done.
Iechine wrote: It sounds like you got cursed by the dice gods man, nothing to be ashamed of at all. When you start losing tyrants to single 6's and cant make any armor saves theres not much to be done.
If I played that game again, and had better dice I might indeed win it, but I want to work on strategies that aren't so dependent on dice to win games.
Iechine wrote: It sounds like you got cursed by the dice gods man, nothing to be ashamed of at all. When you start losing tyrants to single 6's and cant make any armor saves theres not much to be done.
If I played that game again, and had better dice I might indeed win it, but I want to work on strategies that aren't so dependent on dice to win games.
Iechine wrote: It sounds like you got cursed by the dice gods man, nothing to be ashamed of at all. When you start losing tyrants to single 6's and cant make any armor saves theres not much to be done.
If I played that game again, and had better dice I might indeed win it, but I want to work on strategies that aren't so dependent on dice to win games.
I assume you mean you want to limit the amount of randomness that happens when you start rolling d6's. In my last game I had my warlord flying in ruins with a venomthrope within 6 inches and the flyrant about 6 inches away from the enemy Khorne Warlord coming out of a LR with a squad. I failed my last 2+ cover save and then promptly got grounded. what I should have done was place him 3 more inches away behind the ruins because my target for his shooting and synapse was to the right of the ruins not in front. I had the right idea, wrong placement that made me lose my warlord and gave him a secondary obj, and a primary obj as it was kill points which made me rely on making to many saves. On the positive I smashed his warlord in the challenge as he killed me as well.
I think what he's saying is he wants to include at least one unit in his army with a bit more focus towards gaining an advantage in the Cron match up, to make this match a bit less luck dependant. And I too am not exactly sure what the answer is. I suspect it's probably more Carnifex, if I knew for sure I was facing nothing but Crons, I'd take an entire army of Carnifex if I could.
Iechine wrote: It sounds like you got cursed by the dice gods man, nothing to be ashamed of at all. When you start losing tyrants to single 6's and cant make any armor saves theres not much to be done.
If I played that game again, and had better dice I might indeed win it, but I want to work on strategies that aren't so dependent on dice to win games.
I assume you mean you want to limit the amount of randomness that happens when you start rolling d6's.
Yes, and no. I play enough 40k that I'm going to roll well sometimes, and I'm going to roll poorly other times. That being said, I feel like specifically when I play Necrons I either win big or lose big. It feels like a much higher degree of randomness than most other opponents I play, and I would like to bring that randomness in line with the randomness I see against other opponents.
Part of my problem is that there are 4 necron players in my local meta, but only 1 of them is a top tier player capable of giving me a competitive game when I'm running a top tier Tyranid list. So I lack the quantity of games required against Necrons to completely understand the matchups, and how to deal with them. I don't even know the right questions to ask at this point, but I am sure that moving forward with a strategy of "Roll Better" is not enough of a lesson to take from this game.
One specific question. With Imotekh he was able to make it Night fighting, and keep it Night fighting for several turns. This gave his vehicles a 3+ Jink. I could never decide if I should shoot E.Grubs or Devourers at the Annihilation Barge's back armor. E. Grubs are more reliable, but all I need is 1 pen to go through, and now my dakkafexes can deal with them from there. There was one particular shooting phase where the AB had only 2 hull points left, and I was really tempted to use E.Grubs. Does anyone have advice on this?
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SHUPPET wrote: I think what he's saying is he wants to include at least one unit in his army with a bit more focus towards gaining an advantage in the Cron match up, to make this match a bit less luck dependant. And I too am not exactly sure what the answer is. I suspect it's probably more Carnifex, if I knew for sure I was facing nothing but Crons, I'd take an entire army of Carnifex if I could.
I had 3 dakkafexes. Turn 1 I shot all 3 of them into a Destroyer Lord that was attached to 10 Scarabs. The lord tanked all of the wounds, and only failed a single save. Turn 2, one of the dakkafexes was locked up in close combat with the Destroyer Lord (Where he would die several turns later), and the other 2 managed to kill some scarabs. Turn 3, my 2 available dakkafexes shot at Night Scythes, and between the 2 of them did a single hull point (most were jinked away). Turn 4, One dakkafex + my warriors killed 5 immortals, The other one Killed 3, but they all stood back up, he then charged them, and after 4 rounds of combat he had lost 1 wound, and none of the immortals were dead.
My 450 point of Dakkafex netted me a total of: 1 Wound off of a Destroyer Lord 8 Scarabs 1 Hull point off of a Night Scythe 5 Immortals.
I don't think I would want to take more than 3 Dakkafexes against Necrons. Top tier Necrons are every bit the mono build that we are, and that monobuild has lots and lots of armor 13 in it.
Riddle me this my little xenomorphs:
Is there a way of getting two Flyrants and a Tervigon into a single FoC list (no duals) using any of the available options without paying the Termagant tax?
Ratius wrote: Riddle me this my little xenomorphs:
Is there a way of getting two Flyrants and a Tervigon into a single FoC list (no duals) using any of the available options without paying the Termagant tax?
In one detachment, there is no way. You could self ally which isn't allowed everywhere, or you could run skyblight. Otherwise you've got to take the gants. Honestly 30 gants are a better usage of points than 1 Tervigon in most situations.
Cheers, its more the model tax tbh.
With the tax thats 30 needed at base. Then over the course of a game, probably another 30+ if you do well.
Added to that I want to bring 3x10 smaller units as extra fodder.
So that adds up too.....
One specific question. With Imotekh he was able to make it Night fighting, and keep it Night fighting for several turns. This gave his vehicles a 3+ Jink. I could never decide if I should shoot E.Grubs or Devourers at the Annihilation Barge's back armor. E. Grubs are more reliable, but all I need is 1 pen to go through, and now my dakkafexes can deal with them from there. There was one particular shooting phase where the AB had only 2 hull points left, and I was really tempted to use E.Grubs. Does anyone have advice on this?
Here's the comparison between egrubs vs 6 TL-Brainleech devourer shots. Assume 4+ jinking:
Egrubs = 5/6 chance to glance = 83% chance to cause at least 1 HP
TL-Devourers = 6 shots x 8/9 hit x 1/3 chance to glance/pen x 1/2 to get past cover save = .89% chance to cause at least 1 HP
Now assuming 3+ jink due to Imotehk:
TL-Devourers = 6 shots x 8/9 hit x 1/3 chance to glance/pen x 1/3 to get past cover save = .59% chance to cause at least 1 HP
So to answer your question, with 4+ cover, you're better off firing your devourers. With 3+ cover, go with the egrubs.
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tag8833 wrote: I got beat pretty bad by a necron list tonight. A destroyer Lord made an epic ton of 2+ saves tanking 3 dakkfexes and a flyrant turn 1, then assaulted and Killed a dakkafex, a Malanthrope, and 20 Gargoyles. I rolled really poorly on the carnifex and never even caused a wound. Then came out of assault and help kill my bastion. That was bad enough, but on his turn 2 a Monolith ate one of my full health flyrants. Strength test, always fail on 6's. That left me significantly out gunned when his Flyers came in. My other flyrant hung in for another 2 turns but my exocrine failed 5 of 6 3+ armors saves. We were playing BAO mission and it would have been 5 (primary + Line Breaker) to 6 (secondary, plus first blood, Linebreaker, and warlord) on turn 5. It went on to turn 6, and he got a perfect 10. Kinda humiliating.
I saw that Monolith on the table, and I was sure I would win this game. Nothing went my way.
I feel like more than any other army, bad dice can hurt me against necrons. Part of it is that when a necron players gets hot rolling 6's those wounds pile up fast. I wish I could figure out a list or tactical tweak that made me a little more consistent against necrons.
I know this isn't a Necron Tactica thread, but I really feel like Necrons matchup much better against us when they don't have barge lords. They are good, but so pricey. It frees them up to add a few more flying crescent rolls which are really good for their points, and can deliver Ob sec and Dakka quickly to quite a bit of the board.
For those that care, here are the lists:
Spoiler:
CAD Tyrant (2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs, Wings)
Tyrant (2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs, Wings)
Living Artillery Node:
3 Warriors (BS)
Exocrine
3 Biovores
Bastion w/ Void Shield (I forgot about the void shield all game).
His List roughly.
Imotekh the stormlord
Destroyer Lord (MSS, 2+ Armor)
Royal Court
3 Harbringer of the Storm (one in each group of immortals)
5 immortals in a Night Scythe
5 immortals in a Night Scythe
5 immortals in a Night Scythe
10 Scarabs
10 Scarabs
10 Scarabs
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Monolith
Hmmm....
As a necron player, I wouldn't even call that a competitive Necron list. Monoliths are to the crons what Dimachaerons are to our tyranids....they may contribute 1 in every 3 games but mostly, they are more of a casual unit. Then he brings scarabs without any spiders?!? What's with that?
Necrons can be a very, very tough matchup for our bugs. They've got the VoF (volume-of-fire) to take out both our flyers and our ground units, Mindshackle scarabs to deal with our MC's and they can out-maneuver us. It gets worse if they spam those AV13 vehicles. I swear, Necrons may even be harder for our bugs to deal with than Dark Eldar nowadays.
Ironically enough though, I've lost 3 times consecutively against Tyranids with my Necrons. Twice it was due to bad dice on my part/good dice by my opponent. Once was because I brought a casual Necron list (no bargelords and no annihilation barges, only 1 flyer!) and then got curbstomped by a triple-flyrant/barbed hierodule tournament list. But despite those losses, Necrons have all the tools to give bugs a really, really tough fight.
One specific question. With Imotekh he was able to make it Night fighting, and keep it Night fighting for several turns. This gave his vehicles a 3+ Jink. I could never decide if I should shoot E.Grubs or Devourers at the Annihilation Barge's back armor. E. Grubs are more reliable, but all I need is 1 pen to go through, and now my dakkafexes can deal with them from there. There was one particular shooting phase where the AB had only 2 hull points left, and I was really tempted to use E.Grubs. Does anyone have advice on this?
So to answer your question, with 4+ cover, you're better off firing your devourers. With 3+ cover, go with the egrubs.
The question is would you do the same if you had 2 Dakkafexes ready to blow it away if you are able to pen it and take away the AV 13? More of a tactical quandary than a mathematical one.
As a necron player, I wouldn't even call that a competitive Necron list. Monoliths are to the crons what Dimachaerons are to our tyranids....they may contribute 1 in every 3 games but mostly, they are more of a casual unit. Then he brings scarabs without any spiders?!? What's with that?
I agree which is why I humiliated when I brought a top tier Tyranid list, and still lost.
His plan with the Monolith was to use it to deliver his immortals if the flyers got popped, and it gave him deployment and LOS options. I don't think he was counting on it making its point back by eating a Flyrant. That was more of a hail mary. I knew the Monolith could do that, but I had a great angle to use the E.Grubs on the Monolith and also hit 4 Scarabs while using the Monolith to block LOS from the Annihilation barges. It seemed like a sound tactical move at the moment, but in retrospect, I can't decide. What do you think?
He does really well with the Scarabs generally. He uses them to pop vehicles and control the board. In my game, he kept me mainly bottled up in my deployment zone between the scarabs and the Destroyer lord. Then once I wittled them down to 1 in one unit, and 2 in another he put the 2 of an objective in his backfield out of LOS, and the 1 in a corner of my deployment out of LOS to score line breaker. Using them like Rippers. I had a great counter to Scarabs in the form of my LAN and S6 dakka. Personally I don't think they are as good as Wraiths, but in our mech spam meta they perform quite well.
You are a necron player, and so by default know quite alot more about necrons than me, but I've never been impressed with spiders. They take away a FOC slot from the most undercosted unit in the game, the Annihilation Barge. I can't imagine ever considering a necron list to be optimized without maxing out the heavy support with Annihilation barges. Spiders just don't compete. I've seen him run Spider in less competitive games, though.
Canoptek spiders are S6 T6 3W 3+ monstrous creatures who can give you a free 15-pt unit every turn. The kicker? They're only 50-pts each. WOW!!! So for 150-pts, you get 9 T6 Wounds that can give you 45-pts worth of units for free each turn. Compare that to a stock carnifex, who only gives you 1 4W T6 MC for 120-pts. Trust me, the spider is severely undercosted and is a basis for another of the Necron competitive builds - the Scarab-farm. In such an army you take 3x3 spiders who pump out 9 scarabs a turn. That's 27W of units each turn being produced by these spiders!!! Now if they can do it continuously for 5 turns, that's 45 scarabs or 135W worth of models over the course of the game!!!
It's definitely a different playstyle than 3 annihilation barges. Instead of generating a lot of shots, you are generating a lot of bodies.
Ratius wrote: Riddle me this my little xenomorphs:
Is there a way of getting two Flyrants and a Tervigon into a single FoC list (no duals) using any of the available options without paying the Termagant tax?
Ratius wrote: Riddle me this my little xenomorphs:
Is there a way of getting two Flyrants and a Tervigon into a single FoC list (no duals) using any of the available options without paying the Termagant tax?
There is a Tervigon Formation I believe....
The synaptic swam formation I believe. Everyone gets 18 in synapse. If you are allowed to self ally then take a tervigon as your other HQ. The synaptic swarm does not get obj sec though.
Ratius wrote: Riddle me this my little xenomorphs:
Is there a way of getting two Flyrants and a Tervigon into a single FoC list (no duals) using any of the available options without paying the Termagant tax?
There is a Tervigon Formation I believe....
The synaptic swam formation I believe. Everyone gets 18 in synapse. If you are allowed to self ally then take a tervigon as your other HQ. The synaptic swarm does not get obj sec though.
Hmmm, I was think there was a Tervigon Formation, that gives Hyper pregger Tervigon(s) (re-roll 1's?) Fertillity node? Something like that...
jy2 wrote: Canoptek spiders are S6 T6 3W 3+ monstrous creatures who can give you a free 15-pt unit every turn. The kicker? They're only 50-pts each. WOW!!! So for 150-pts, you get 9 T6 Wounds that can give you 45-pts worth of units for free each turn. Compare that to a stock carnifex, who only gives you 1 4W T6 MC for 120-pts. Trust me, the spider is severely undercosted and is a basis for another of the Necron competitive builds - the Scarab-farm. In such an army you take 3x3 spiders who pump out 9 scarabs a turn. That's 27W of units each turn being produced by these spiders!!! Now if they can do it continuously for 5 turns, that's 45 scarabs or 135W worth of models over the course of the game!!!
It's definitely a different playstyle than 3 annihilation barges. Instead of generating a lot of shots, you are generating a lot of bodies.
So, I see where you are coming from. I have heard of this build. I've only had the opportunity to play against it once, and I took a very fluffy list, and stomped it. Turn 2 all of the Scarabs were dead. I threw 20 Hormagants into assault against the spiders and moved on. I guess there were only 3 Spiders so not quite the degree of spam you were suggestions.
My experience leads me to believe that perhaps the Scarab Farm isn't a terribly competitive necron build. I see how it could give Orks and marines difficulty, but Tau, Eldar, and Tyranids should be able to handle it with ease. In fact, shouldn't a Thunderfire cannon be able to wipe out a squad of Scarabs a turn?
You'd be better off taking at least a somewhat useful formation in Skyblight and getting your second Flyrant through that, while having the Tervigon+Flyrant as your HQ choices
Ratius wrote: Riddle me this my little xenomorphs:
Is there a way of getting two Flyrants and a Tervigon into a single FoC list (no duals) using any of the available options without paying the Termagant tax?
There is a Tervigon Formation I believe....
The synaptic swam formation I believe. Everyone gets 18 in synapse. If you are allowed to self ally then take a tervigon as your other HQ. The synaptic swarm does not get obj sec though.
Hmmm, I was think there was a Tervigon Formation, that gives Hyper pregger Tervigon(s) (re-roll 1's?) Fertillity node? Something like that...
The Tervigon formation is called "Incubator Node"
1 Tervigon and 3 termagant broods and gain the Hyper-Progenitive special rule. This allows you to re-roll ones when spawning termagants. This means you clog up sooner, but are more consistent in the number of gants generated.
So the Gant Tax is still firmly in place, plus the gants and tervigon aren't Objective Secured if they come via an Incubator Node, so I feel like this formation actually has more penalties that bonuses, and I wouldn't recommend it.
One specific question. With Imotekh he was able to make it Night fighting, and keep it Night fighting for several turns. This gave his vehicles a 3+ Jink. I could never decide if I should shoot E.Grubs or Devourers at the Annihilation Barge's back armor. E. Grubs are more reliable, but all I need is 1 pen to go through, and now my dakkafexes can deal with them from there. There was one particular shooting phase where the AB had only 2 hull points left, and I was really tempted to use E.Grubs. Does anyone have advice on this?
So to answer your question, with 4+ cover, you're better off firing your devourers. With 3+ cover, go with the egrubs.
The question is would you do the same if you had 2 Dakkafexes ready to blow it away if you are able to pen it and take away the AV 13? More of a tactical quandary than a mathematical one.
Let's look further into this. What are your chances of penning the annihilation barge?
Egrubs = 1/6 = 17% of getting a pen
TL-Brainleech Devourers with 4+ jink = 6 shots x 8/9 hit x 1/6 pen x 1/2 gets through saves = 44% of a pen
TL-Brainleech Devourers with 3+ jink = 6 shots x 8/9 hit x 1/6 pen x 1/3 gets through saves = 30% of a pen
So you definitely have a much better chance to pen with the devourers than you do with the egrubs. Now whether you want to pen or not is the real question.
With Egrubs, you have a 83% chance of doing damage and only a 17% chance for a pen.
With 4+ cover, you have a 89% chance of doing damage and 44% chance of a pen with devourers.
With 3+ cover, you have a 59% chance of doing damage and 30% chance of a pen with devourers.
The answer to me is very clear.
With 4+ cover, always go with the devourers.
With 3+ cover, go with egrubs.
If you can potentially hit 2 Necron vehicles, go with egrubs. Hope that helps.
SHUPPET wrote: I think what he's saying is he wants to include at least one unit in his army with a bit more focus towards gaining an advantage in the Cron match up, to make this match a bit less luck dependant. And I too am not exactly sure what the answer is. I suspect it's probably more Carnifex, if I knew for sure I was facing nothing but Crons, I'd take an entire army of Carnifex if I could.
I had 3 dakkafexes. Turn 1 I shot all 3 of them into a Destroyer Lord that was attached to 10 Scarabs. The lord tanked all of the wounds, and only failed a single save. Turn 2, one of the dakkafexes was locked up in close combat with the Destroyer Lord (Where he would die several turns later), and the other 2 managed to kill some scarabs. Turn 3, my 2 available dakkafexes shot at Night Scythes, and between the 2 of them did a single hull point (most were jinked away). Turn 4, One dakkafex + my warriors killed 5 immortals, The other one Killed 3, but they all stood back up, he then charged them, and after 4 rounds of combat he had lost 1 wound, and none of the immortals were dead.
My 450 point of Dakkafex netted me a total of:
1 Wound off of a Destroyer Lord
8 Scarabs
1 Hull point off of a Night Scythe
5 Immortals.
I don't think I would want to take more than 3 Dakkafexes against Necrons. Top tier Necrons are every bit the mono build that we are, and that monobuild has lots and lots of armor 13 in it.
So what would you rather than Fexes for this role? Don't let bad rolls fool you, what else does this match up better? In greater numbers you are more likely for them hit CC as well. Very little else in even useful in this match up, even Flyrants have a reduced efficiency against an army that is snaps hitting most the time anyway.
So guys, I recently thought about some of the odd ideas I came up with early in my Tyranid career. I don't suppose many remember that old Tyran Air list I came up with. Well, I was chatting with a friend about templates this evening on just how many Tyranids could field at 2000pts. Well, in honor of Tyran Air, I updated this for 7E. What do you think? Quite obviously, it will do horrible against anyone remotely expecting that many flying MCs, but overall...think it has a chance as a one off gimick?
Fast Attack - 900
Harpy w/ Cluster Spines
Harpy w/ Cluster Spines
Harpy w/ Cluster Spines
Harpy w/ Cluster Spines
Harpy w/ Cluster Spines
Harpy w/ Cluster Spines
Heavy Support - 720
3x Biovores
3x Biovores
3x Biovores
3x Biovores
3x Biovores
3x Biovores
Fortifications - 70
Aegis Defense Line w/ Comms Relay
SHUPPET wrote: I think what he's saying is he wants to include at least one unit in his army with a bit more focus towards gaining an advantage in the Cron match up, to make this match a bit less luck dependant. And I too am not exactly sure what the answer is. I suspect it's probably more Carnifex, if I knew for sure I was facing nothing but Crons, I'd take an entire army of Carnifex if I could.
I had 3 dakkafexes. Turn 1 I shot all 3 of them into a Destroyer Lord that was attached to 10 Scarabs. The lord tanked all of the wounds, and only failed a single save. Turn 2, one of the dakkafexes was locked up in close combat with the Destroyer Lord (Where he would die several turns later), and the other 2 managed to kill some scarabs. Turn 3, my 2 available dakkafexes shot at Night Scythes, and between the 2 of them did a single hull point (most were jinked away). Turn 4, One dakkafex + my warriors killed 5 immortals, The other one Killed 3, but they all stood back up, he then charged them, and after 4 rounds of combat he had lost 1 wound, and none of the immortals were dead.
My 450 point of Dakkafex netted me a total of:
1 Wound off of a Destroyer Lord
8 Scarabs
1 Hull point off of a Night Scythe
5 Immortals.
I don't think I would want to take more than 3 Dakkafexes against Necrons. Top tier Necrons are every bit the mono build that we are, and that monobuild has lots and lots of armor 13 in it.
So what would you rather than Fexes for this role? Don't let bad rolls fool you, what else does this match up better? In greater numbers you are more likely for them hit CC as well. Very little else in even useful in this match up, even Flyrants have a reduced efficiency against an army that is snaps hitting most the time anyway.
Here are 4 options.
1) Keep the list the same. Dakkafexes aren't the worst matchup. I think 3 is a good number. To add more, I would have to drop a Malanthrope and 20 Gargoyles, and that would have been bad. Alternatively, I could have dropped the LAN. I'm not convinced that would have been a good trade.
2) Crones work better against Necrons than Dakkafexes. Also Ignore cover S6 AP4 is stunningly powerful against Scarabs.
3) The best way to Deal with AV 13 is the Barbed Heirodule.
4) An off the wall approach to Necrons is Raveners and Shrikes. Rending Claws can deal with Barges with ease. Necrons don't have much ignore cover, although lightning killed 6 Gants, 8 Gargoyles, 2 wounds to a warrior, 1 wound to a Malanthrope, and 1 Wound to a Dakkafex. He rolled alot of 6's.
I think the LAN is 450 points that would be much better as 3 Dakkafexes, or Crones if you insist they are better (possibly are but I doubt it, +450 pts of them will do a combined total of 2 HP all game with their tentaclids, and vektor striking every turn which you won't be able to do x3 will do an average of 1.5 wounds, in reality its gonna be lower than that - I think Dakkafexes are just leagues better even here).
Massed Shrikes is another option when building to beat Necrons I guess. I can't even envision how it would go so I'm gunna withhold any comments. Might leave the game a bit more playskill dependant however which is what you wanted right.
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Unyielding Hunger wrote: So guys, I recently thought about some of the odd ideas I came up with early in my Tyranid career. I don't suppose many remember that old Tyran Air list I came up with. Well, I was chatting with a friend about templates this evening on just how many Tyranids could field at 2000pts. Well, in honor of Tyran Air, I updated this for 7E. What do you think? Quite obviously, it will do horrible against anyone remotely expecting that many flying MCs, but overall...think it has a chance as a one off gimick?
Fast Attack - 900 Harpy w/ Cluster Spines Harpy w/ Cluster Spines Harpy w/ Cluster Spines Harpy w/ Cluster Spines Harpy w/ Cluster Spines Harpy w/ Cluster Spines
Heavy Support - 720 3x Biovores 3x Biovores 3x Biovores 3x Biovores 3x Biovores 3x Biovores
Fortifications - 70 Aegis Defense Line w/ Comms Relay
Aside from Malanthropes being Elite and not HQ, you are also neutering the mobility of synapse less flyers if you don't have a Flyrant to move with them. They have high LD so one or two is fine, but x6 is a lot of Synapse rolls to be risking just to give you cross field mobility for a model that needs to be making VektorStrike-esque moves. On top of, 200 pts of Malanthropes being used to Synapse and Cover 6 backfield longrange artillery units already sitting behind an ADL seems like a massive waste of points here, although I can't give you a full explanation how this just requires common sense to know the Malanthropes are rarely going to make its points back here, one Zoanthrope would be fine, especially since you are attempting to build such a forward turn 1 aggressive core. The comms relay also seems like a waste of points even if just a minor one as it's pretty irrelevant when your Rippers come down. And after all that being said, you are spamming Harpies which fulfill a VERY similar offensive role to the Biovores, so you have little offensive coverage except for AP4 cover ignoring blasts. Crones probably be better although I see no reason not to just do Flyrants if this is your angle. You also have absolutely zero ways of killing even a single Rhino, besides sacrificing your Harpy's Wings for a turn to hopefully pull off an assault the next turn (even then requires multiple Harpies doing this to get the kill), or assaulting it with Bivores (lol). I couldn't imagine the type of list this would ever win a game against, but most likely it would have to be someone playing something just as silly but involving the dual CAD spamming of 4+ save models such as firewarriors and pathfinders.
SHUPPET wrote: I think the LAN is 450 points that would be much better as 3 Dakkafexes, or Crones if you insist they are better (possibly are but I doubt it, 450 pts of them will do a combined total of 2 HP all game with their tentaclids, and vektor striking every turn which you won't be able to do x3 will do an average of 1.5 wounds, in reality its gonna be lower than that - I think Dakkafexes are just leagues better even here).
Massed Shrikes is another option when building to beat Necrons I guess. I can't even envision how it would go so I'm gunna withhold any comments. Might leave the game a bit more playskill dependant however which is what you wanted right.
LAN is 390 points. The Biovores did alot of work. The Exocrine was my best chance at killing that destroyer Lord, unfortunately, Look Out Sirs saved him. The warriors were unspectacular, but would have taken on a squad of immortals if they hadn't failed a charge.
Would Dropping the LAN for Crones be a good call? Probably against this particular list. I don't think it yields a better TAC list. Dropping the LAN for another Flyrant would have helped me quite a lot. I still feel good about the LAN in a competitive list. I'm not quite ready to jettison it yet. But against Necrons a Trip flyrant list with Crones or Barbed Heirodule is definitely a better option.
it is indeed 390, i just went top of my head and did biovores as 140 for some reason when they are 120 and i rounded that up to the relevant number of 450 (~3 dakkafexes/Crones).
So anyway, in no way shape or form am I giving advice for a TAC list, I thought we were talking about ways to beat Necrons here. No way in hell should you drop LAN for other match ups.
In regards to Necrons, try a Tyrannofex or two. Your typical Necron list generally doesn't have much in the way of ranged AP2 and Tesla just bounces off (last time I brought a Tyrannofex against 'crons it took all 7 turns of sustained tesla fire to kill it). Meanwhile, both of the typical Tyrannofex templates are useful in the match-up (Acid Spay for clearing out Warriors in or out of Arks, Electroshock Grubs for vehicles), so it can't be entirely ignored.
I'm always harping on about dual-template Tyrannofexes, they are useful all-rounders, glad to hear that they've performed better than average against Necrons too. FWIW I enjoy running two of them. The 2+ really does come into play quite often.
(It needn't be said but run a Venom + gant screen for 3+.)
Strat_N8 wrote: In regards to Necrons, try a Tyrannofex or two. Your typical Necron list generally doesn't have much in the way of ranged AP2 and Tesla just bounces off (last time I brought a Tyrannofex against 'crons it took all 7 turns of sustained tesla fire to kill it). Meanwhile, both of the typical Tyrannofex templates are useful in the match-up (Acid Spay for clearing out Warriors in or out of Arks, Electroshock Grubs for vehicles), so it can't be entirely ignored.
The do indeed perform well against Necrons. Just make sure to keep them away from Scarab Swarms and Mind Shackle Scarabs.
DeviousDonut wrote: I was the Tyranid player at the invitational. The only tyranid player, I was running a single CAD with:
2 Flyrants + Devourers + ES Grubs (Duh)
Malanthrope
Tervigon
30 Gaunts
20 Gargoyles
Dimachaeron
2 Carnifexes + Devourers
Over all I went 6-1. I lost my very first game on Friday. And I blame that on having a very good opponent with 6 vendetta valkerye elysian drop troops that I was in no way prepared for, and the fact that I looked at the mission packet wrong. I didn't realize the Objectives were cumulative until turn 5. I argued with my opponent over the end game score but in the end decided it was my own fault for not reading the mission properly and gave him the win. My next games involved facing White Scar Grav Bikers with khan, Ork nob bikers supported by lots of artillery, DE, Triptide tau with farsight and a knight, A knight Castigator with imp guard and pask including 2 wyverns and a hydra on a skyshield. Then finally for the top of bracket 2 I ended up facing my original opponent again. 6 Valkyrie vendetta elysian troops all with melta bombs. This time around I was very careful with the mission and knew to give him first turn since he started entirely in reserve. I came away with the win and took the top of bracket 2.
Taken from the feast of blades tournament thread. This list is full of genius, what do you guys think?
B-but he's not running four Flyrants! How could he win at all?! And he used a Dimachaeron and a Tervigon! That's exactly what you're not supposed to use! He should have been like, 0-1,000,000,000!
Of course things can go well for a good player in an environment that allows it. Terv is still 6 wounds and reproducing, Dima is still a beast in CC. Its not a list Id want to take simply on the grounds it starts with 50 small bodies I have to move in a tournament. : /
Im on nightshift tonight with nothing to do, so heres some discussion questions.
Next week Ill probably run in to a lot of armies I havent gotten to play much against ever. So what do I need to focus down when facing Necrons, Imperial Guard, and Orks? Thats to say, who is the focus for the quad tyrant Alpha strike?
I've got a general question. I see 1 Malanthrope showing up in every list. I almost always lose a single Malanthrope in every game these days. Sometimes that and some gargoyles are all I lose in a game. Some of that has to do with my local meta being well trained and coached by me to beat tyranids. If I was running a ground pound army like the one above, I would want a 2nd Malanthrope so that I have flexibility in deployment and my army doesn't start falling apart when I lose 1 model.
I'm curious that not only do most tyranid players seem to run only one Malanthrope, but also they never seem to lose them. Do you think that as the general player base adapts, we will start seeing more people sniping out Malanthropes before firing fruitlessly into 2+ cover?
A single Malan in a bastion is one thing, but if you are making the long walk, and/or hoping for Master of Ambush, a 2nd Malanthrope would seem to be called for.
i run two single mals and a single venom at 1850. it stops you from having to cluster around one unit, makes it less of a big deal when you have bad luck, and takes longer to focus down.
My malanthrope is usually only useful the first two turns. Alpha strike protection, turn 2 gargoyles are usually still in safe bubble, past that its just carnifexes he's moving with and I'm fine with people shooting at him.
gigasnail wrote: i run two single mals and a single venom at 1850. it stops you from having to cluster around one unit, makes it less of a big deal when you have bad luck, and takes longer to focus down.
Even just a Malanthrope and a Venomthrope give you a chance to maximize Master of Ambush if you get that warlord trait. A Venom + 2 Dakkafexes infiltrated into a ruins with a flyrant, and you've got your own alpha strike power. Plus, your non-infiltrating flyrant can advance to the shrouded bubble of this venom on turn 1.
Iechine wrote: Of course things can go well for a good player in an environment that allows it. Terv is still 6 wounds and reproducing, Dima is still a beast in CC. Its not a list Id want to take simply on the grounds it starts with 50 small bodies I have to move in a tournament. : /
This, more or less. People acting like something less efficient cannot do well, and because someone does well with something it must be a good way to go.
Yes, he did well with this list, but whats to say he wouldn't have done even better with a better list? I don't think that 4 Flyrants is the only way to go nor do I think it is the best way to go, however it's definitely a top tier build and better than this list lol. I'd rather use logic and individual assessments of a units worth to judge how to create a good build, not just look to see if anyone does well with something and assume that he must have a good build if he did. There is an extraordinarily low sample of high level games to take note of making the legitimacy of such statistics pretty useless. If a sample of 100,000 Tyranid games showed people with Tervigon's and Dima's doing better than people with 4 Flyrants, they might have some bearing. As it stands, that's just 7 games which could have been decided by anything at all, might be that he took a Tervigon and a Dima instead of more Flyrants or Carnifexes, or maybe that had a minor role in every match up and actually hurt his chances, might just be that his opponents had similar wildcard lowtier units in their lists as well, might be that he just rolled better, his opponents made bad decisions, he got lucky match ups, his opponents fethed up the mission objectives like he did first game, he has insane pokerfacebluffing skills forcing a lot of bad prioritization from his opponents, any number of things. Until I see the logic that Tervigons are good models, I am going to continue playing lists that make sense to me strategically, rather than using other peoples success as a defensive point for bad models, and I'd urge anyone who takes the competitive side of Tyranids seriously, to do the same.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tag8833 wrote: I've got a general question. I see 1 Malanthrope showing up in every list. I almost always lose a single Malanthrope in every game these days. Sometimes that and some gargoyles are all I lose in a game. Some of that has to do with my local meta being well trained and coached by me to beat tyranids. If I was running a ground pound army like the one above, I would want a 2nd Malanthrope so that I have flexibility in deployment and my army doesn't start falling apart when I lose 1 model.
I'm curious that not only do most tyranid players seem to run only one Malanthrope, but also they never seem to lose them. Do you think that as the general player base adapts, we will start seeing more people sniping out Malanthropes before firing fruitlessly into 2+ cover?
A single Malan in a bastion is one thing, but if you are making the long walk, and/or hoping for Master of Ambush, a 2nd Malanthrope would seem to be called for.
I run nothing but a single Venomthrope. I know right, no malanthropes, crazy! Pretty different to most, but then again - where others have two Malanthropes instead, I have an extra Carnifex. Does it die quickly? Obviously. But at 45 points, having LoS blocked by a Dakkafex pack or at the very least covered for a 3+ save, and in the early stages that is often 1 or two full units shooting that it absorbs, well and truly making its points back for me every game. Against anything with cover ignoring weaponry (my two most challenging opponents are, surprise surprise, a competitive Eldar and a competitive Tau player), I am not bringing a 1300 pt army to 1500 pt game. I feel like Malanthrope is pretty overrated, its a good model but not this auto-include musthave that many make it out to be, and taking 2 is really biting into a lot of points.
i was hesitant to run two of them as well because of the price tag. i've been pretty happy with them so far, but like with your example above, it's hardly conclusive proof of anything.
The Tervigon formation is called "Incubator Node"
1 Tervigon and 3 termagant broods and gain the Hyper-Progenitive special rule. This allows you to re-roll ones when spawning termagants. This means you clog up sooner, but are more consistent in the number of gants generated.
So the Gant Tax is still firmly in place, plus the gants and tervigon aren't Objective Secured if they come via an Incubator Node, so I feel like this formation actually has more penalties that bonuses, and I wouldn't recommend it.
The lack of OS and the rapid clog up is why I had to drop this one out of the running for an end of year tourney that allows unlimited unique formations/detachments. I really wanted it, but lack of OS just kills it.
gigasnail wrote: i was hesitant to run two of them as well because of the price tag. i've been pretty happy with them so far, but like with your example above, it's hardly conclusive proof of anything.
Yeah, and I don't think there really is a conclusive answer. It''s probably a lot to personal preference, but I do think it's easy to forget the tax that comes from those supporting units to your actual army. I don't think that malanthropes is a good idea for my list, when I want my Synapse to come with free rolls for Onslaught / Catalyst / Paroxysm as opposed to amalgamating in with my Venom, but even in the lists that I don't want Zopes I think I'd rather be upgrading a Gant squad to some Warriors for a Cannon and something a bit more threatening in CC as well and survivable, even if it does come at the cost of my Venom being SLIGHTLY easier to kill than a Malanthrope (although lets be honest, the main thing keeping both alive is the cover save). This is my personal preference so I'd never give someone advice "leave the Malanthropes at home because you are doing it the wrong way", however I do think at the very least they are on par as a competitive options to taking a Malanthrope, yet I see the opposite advice being given out, such as "all lists need Malanthropes and Flyrants", the Flyrants yes, the Malanthropes, meh, debatable and far from a NECESSARY purchase.
Update to this: apparently the tournament does allow Forge World, but no superheavies or gargantuans from FW, so the Hierodule is out :(
the good news is, this gives me 565 points to spend, the bad news is, there really is no decent replacement for the Hierodule long distance firepower :(
So, next try:
--CAD Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
1 Malanthrope 3 Hive Guard
Hive Crone 15 Gargoyles
Mawloc Mawloc
-- Living artillery
3 Tyranid Warriors: barbed strangler
3 Biovores Exocrine
Comes to 1735 points currently, also plays a bit different I guess. I'm not sure about the Gargoyles in this list though, might it be worth it to replace them with some Shrikes to hunt Wraithknights and such?
My warrior brood was pretty devastating in all of its combats, and tervigon never stopped spawning. Crone hit with all of its haywire attacks, and Mawloc destroyed 8 tactical marines...I pretty much had excellent rolls the entire time. It was a lot of fun using bad units that have been collecting dust.
That's wicked awesome. Good for you mate. I enjoy using Warriors where possible, but it's challenging. Did you attach the Prime to the Warriors for increased WS?
Update to this: apparently the tournament does allow Forge World, but no superheavies or gargantuans from FW, so the Hierodule is out :(
the good news is, this gives me 565 points to spend, the bad news is, there really is no decent replacement for the Hierodule long distance firepower :(
So, next try:
--CAD Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
3 Ripper Swarms: Deep Strike
1 Malanthrope 3 Hive Guard
Hive Crone 15 Gargoyles
Mawloc Mawloc
-- Living artillery
3 Tyranid Warriors: barbed strangler
3 Biovores Exocrine
Comes to 1735 points currently, also plays a bit different I guess. I'm not sure about the Gargoyles in this list though, might it be worth it to replace them with some Shrikes to hunt Wraithknights and such?
All opinions welcome!
Sounds like you have the exact same issues as me not to mention list! ( minus Hive gaurd and gargoyles)
Double Mawloc's is where it's at!
Edit; I have used too many exclamation marks in my excited.
I'm sure some of you guys have read Bigpig's tactics thread about what he calls the "Trapdoor Spider", either on Frontlinegaming or over on Tyranid Hive Proboards. I've seen some ideas over in both of those places (and I know many of us lurk in more than just one forum) but I'm curious to hear what you guys think about this play style. It sounds very interesting.
But going a little further down the rabbit hole, how would you guys go about this type of play style if you decided to try it, even just hypothetically? What units would you use? How would they function with respect to the rest of your army (in case it's not obvious).
For those of you who haven't read the article, I'd highly recommend it, even just as a tactical approach to try in certain situations. To give a 60 second overview, the strategy hinges on the Malanthrope (or Venomthrope) giving much of your army a 2+ cover save, which is easier done than most people think. The part where the strategy diverges from what most people do is in the fact that it waits. Your army sits in the shrouded bubble (which I have affectionately termed "shroudstar") and makes the opponent come to you. You wait in your fortress of solitude until turn 3 or 4 being just ridiculously durable and doing what you can at range. If they come to you, you can pounce when the time is right, having taken very few casualties since you didn't have to march across the board - your opponent did it for you! How considerate of them.
The question of course then becomes - why on earth would they come to me? What can I do to get them to come to me? The first question is more common than most people think, since even if they get within 24 inches of you, which most armies will have to do, then you can strike with everything whenever you want. If they're outside of 24", your firepower is somewhat reduced, but we do still have Biovores, the Barbed Hierodule if your group allows it, and the Exocrine/Hive Guard have some reach (although they won't likely be dueling with 36" range units).
Even if they won't ever want to come to you, do they have 2+ cover? Probably not. In short, you can likely win a war of attrition, whittling down what you need to while taking almost no damage in return. In short, I definitely want to try this.
This only works if there are few objectives and just the right army. Otherwise weight of fire WILL kill your Malanthrope. It's also a great way to give up a free Flyrant.
Iechine wrote: This only works if there are few objectives and just the right army. Otherwise weight of fire WILL kill your Malanthrope. It's also a great way to give up a free Flyrant.
You could always make the Flyrant fly while benefitting from the cover for at least 2 turns. And while you can (and likely will) lose the Malanthrope, have you gotten first blood before them? You very well may have, especially if you can somewhat keep the Malanthrope out of LOS (like in a bastion). Also, at whatever point the Malanthrope finally dies, have you gained an advantage? If you've killed more of them than 85 points, I'd say so. And that's assuming they go straight for the lynchpin. Even if he just lasts 2 or 3 turns, the whole rest of your army is probably still pretty intact and ready to go grab objectives while weathering roughly half as much shooting as they otherwise would have, just by the virtue of it being later in the game. It certainly won't work in every situation against every army, but it's a nice arrow to have in your quiver nonetheless.
My builds all depend on Venomthrope cover, MC durability, and screening units. I'm quite fond of a few Tyrannofexes in 3+ (or better!) Cover, they can take a heck of a lot of punishment. Similar to this TDS strategy, but I remain moving all game.
But I'm firmly in the 'big, slow durable' Tyranid playstyle. So ymmv.
luke1705 wrote: I'm sure some of you guys have read Bigpig's tactics thread about what he calls the "Trapdoor Spider", either on Frontlinegaming or over on Tyranid Hive Proboards. I've seen some ideas over in both of those places (and I know many of us lurk in more than just one forum) but I'm curious to hear what you guys think about this play style. It sounds very interesting.
But going a little further down the rabbit hole, how would you guys go about this type of play style if you decided to try it, even just hypothetically? What units would you use? How would they function with respect to the rest of your army (in case it's not obvious).
For those of you who haven't read the article, I'd highly recommend it, even just as a tactical approach to try in certain situations. To give a 60 second overview, the strategy hinges on the Malanthrope (or Venomthrope) giving much of your army a 2+ cover save, which is easier done than most people think. The part where the strategy diverges from what most people do is in the fact that it waits. Your army sits in the shrouded bubble (which I have affectionately termed "shroudstar") and makes the opponent come to you. You wait in your fortress of solitude until turn 3 or 4 being just ridiculously durable and doing what you can at range. If they come to you, you can pounce when the time is right, having taken very few casualties since you didn't have to march across the board - your opponent did it for you! How considerate of them.
The question of course then becomes - why on earth would they come to me? What can I do to get them to come to me? The first question is more common than most people think, since even if they get within 24 inches of you, which most armies will have to do, then you can strike with everything whenever you want. If they're outside of 24", your firepower is somewhat reduced, but we do still have Biovores, the Barbed Hierodule if your group allows it, and the Exocrine/Hive Guard have some reach (although they won't likely be dueling with 36" range units).
Even if they won't ever want to come to you, do they have 2+ cover? Probably not. In short, you can likely win a war of attrition, whittling down what you need to while taking almost no damage in return. In short, I definitely want to try this.
It seems gimmicky and a complete loss of board control outside of your fortress bubble. I don't know why do this with Nids. We are the notoriously short ranged army, other than Biovores I don't believe there is a single cost-effective model with range greater than 18". The reach we have outside of the fortress is tiny, and you better hope your opponent has no Barrage / Templates / Markerlights / Ignores Cover shooting because this thing will fold like a wet paper bag leaving you well below on points.
On top of this, the assumption that we can outshoot any army that gets to keep perfect range dictation, even with global terminator saves is probably inaccurate. Range control is massive for us, there is a reason mobility is so crucial for us, why we want MoA, Onslaught, Wings, you constantly need to be pushing up to keep those Devourers in range. Out of the models that this doesn't apply to, Biovores are obviously great, for killing infantry however and anything in a transport obviously fully safe. TFex are obviously extremely expensive and unreliable and not worth it on a good day, and in this list the whole 2+ cover theme is mostly wasted since they already pay a bunch for a 2+ save. The fact that he suggested it in his build says a bit about the player behind this strategy. Units with single shot cannons aren't at all spammable, and are probably irrelevant since the core of this army is Biovores. Miasa Cannon might be nice for niche MC shooting, but meh. The Heirodule is almost necessary for this to do anything, yet is still far from a cost effective model in general, and not least of which because it also benefits much less from 2+ cover save.
Basically, premise of the build is you only need that 2+ to be there until they are in range of your guns, giving you the alpha strike, and securing the investment of your army. Assuming they have to come within threat range to win of course. So once they close with 26" or whatever the disembark + move + shoot range is for devourers, you jump out and fire. Basically, an expensive ass version of what you get for rolling MoA. If you think they are going to try fight you within 18" while your army has a 2+ global save (a.k.a. suicide) you take the auto-win, decent players won't do this tho. But I don't know, I think that most armies will win a war of attrition placed 30" away, yes there firepower will be mitigated heavily, but yours will be almost non-existent. Except they get to maintain full board control and positioning. This is a cheesy build designed to counter certain playstyles that are built around mobility and close range warfare (drop pods, orks, GK). Add to that that even the lists this is designed to built will still beat it depending on the mission, because you have zero board control and if you leave your big ruin, you have a massive points disadvantage.
I'd think twice about this, it's basically increasing the save of all your MC's by 1 against anything without AP3, even then, the benefits barely outweigh getting a MoA roll and are probably as consistent. Except they are not free. This just seems like typical flashy FLG nonsense, and it will of course fall apart at a higher level of play. Also, 1 Heldrake. Just imagine it. 1 Heldrake.
This is a cheesy build designed to counter certain playstyles that are built around mobility and close range warfare (drop pods, orks, GK). Add to that that even the lists this is designed to built will still beat it depending on the mission, because you have zero board control and if you leave your big ruin, you have a massive points disadvantage.
I'd think twice about this, it's basically increasing the save of all your MC's by 1 against anything without AP3, even then, the benefits barely outweigh getting a MoA roll and are probably as consistent. Except they are not free. This just seems like typical flashy FLG nonsense, and it will of course fall apart at a higher level of play. Also, 1 Heldrake. Just imagine it. 1 Heldrake.
To be clear, it's not a build. It's a strategy that can be implemented (and is implemented by any competent Tyranid player for a turn or two if they run a Malanthrope or a Venomthrope - so pretty much every Tyranid player). If it works, I don't see what anyone's issue could possibly be. Are they mad that we have this unit? You're right that many armies can outshoot us, and they certainly will. But do most armies have an abundance of 30+ inch range weaponry that isn't designed to be anti-tank or anti-horde? Basically, you're typically shooting at a t6 multiwound terminator unless you have ignores cover, in which case you're shooting at a t6 critter who is happy to take his 3+ armor save. If they're using anti-tank weaponry it won't have the necessary VOF to get through the 2+, and anti-horde will struggle to put wounds on t6.
I honestly don't understand the assertion of cheese. You use the rules of the unit and the game. You're welcome to not field a unit if it feels cheesy and play with as many Genestealers as you'd like. But I hope it's not too much for others to hope for level footing with other tournament-style armies. I'm not claiming that this will win tournaments, although it seems to have gone well for Bigpig and InControl (he only sort of used it) at a decently large tournament. All I'm saying is that it seems worth giving a shot to.
Also, it's worth noting that you're not giving up as much board control as you make it sound. You can have rippers going wherever you need them to for maelstrom points, and you can still go wherever you need to whenever you feel you need to. The whole idea is simply to weather the alpha strike, the beta strike, and possibly any stragglers that come in turn 3 via deep strike. All of those offensives are pretty much completely neutered if your Malanthrope survives (if he's even targetable/visible). I'll admit I don't have a great knowledge of all the weapons that armies have available to them that are content to sit back and plink away at 30 or more inches, but I haven't run across much of it that would worry me because it either doesn't ignore cover or is high ap/low VOF. Dark Eldar have a lot as do Tau, but that's what Biovores and the Hierodule are for.
And that Heldrake will do a whole single wound to a Malanthrope and then die in a fiery inferno to the Flyrants. Assuming it even comes in before turn 4
Actually, it is a build, because it includes a serious amount of must-take models and units. That being said you are arguing a semantic, because regardless of whether it's a strategy or a style of way to build a list, there is a fine point between the two, and the poster of this strategy did in fact, include an example list. At what stage does it become a build? But whatever, just substitute every mention of the word "build" in my post with the word "strategy" if it helps.
Cheese is not that it's outside the rules or that its an unfair build and that you should be nice to your tournament opponents. It's that its a build that is easily counterable and sacrifices all round stability for a cheesy victory designed around relying on your opponent not having a way to deal with a specific aspect your list or else the entire thing crumbles. EG cheesy Flyer Spam - AA, cheesy Landraider spam - heavy AT, etc. Here's a definition of the term "cheese"
Spoiler:
The term "Cheese" comes from the adjective "Cheesy". The not-so-subtle innuendo there is that a victory via so-called "cheese" did not come from the players own skill, but was merely because the loser was unprepared for the "cheesy" tactics that lead to their loss.
What qualifies as "cheese" will undoubtedly vary from player to player, but generally the term refers to exploiting system mechanics in a way unanticipated by your opponent, or otherwise not balanced around.
Many people dislike cheese because it is hard to predict and counter if you are not prepared for it.
Also, it's worth noting that you're not giving up as much board control as you make it sound. You can have rippers going wherever you need them to for maelstrom points, and you can still go wherever you need to whenever you feel you need to. The whole idea is simply to weather the alpha strike, the beta strike, and possibly any stragglers that come in turn 3 via deep strike. All
Alright, you can throw Rippers at points, they might make a couple, but I mentioned the whole "weathering the alpha" in great depth in my post and why it's a flawed concept. Also, while physically you CAN go anywhere whenever you feel you need to, in reality if you are hoping to win the match you cannot just leave on a whim, as you are down a bunch of wasted points between the fortress, the Malanthrope and whatever ineffecient unit comp you took to make the concept work (looking at you Barby), giving you a crippling disadvantage all across the board if this strategy doesn't net you a SIGNIFICANT amount of points.
And that Heldrake will do a whole single wound to a Malanthrope and then die in a fiery inferno to the Flyrants. Assuming it even comes in before turn 4
LOL
Dark Eldar have a lot as do Tau, but that's what Biovores and the Hierodule are for
I feel like DE actually have very little and are one of the better match ups for this. Assuming they don't just fan out and wreck you on objectives, but hey that's the issue no matter who you are facing. Venom's can't be sensibly taken in bulk now, Ravagers are ruined, the bulk of their AT is in Haywire and Bikes, and their anti-infantry seems to be CC / close range focused. Depends how many transports they managed to sensibly take however. You still will be lucky to pop 1 every two turns with the Biovores and Heirodule combined however. Also, let me know how long it takes you to kill that Riptide with your Biovore + Heirodule combo. Then let me know how long it takes you to kill the other 2.
This strategy has glaring flaws and looks really bad, but that's all I think I'm going to say on the matter, not much else to be said about it strategically, if you want to run it, run it. Will do well against idiots who know how to do nothing but move 6" forward and roll for shooting every turn. But then again, Tyranids are naturally good against those guys anyway.
Wilson wrote: How do we do about tackling tank companies?
I.e the IG tank formation?
I'm taking on my bud later who's bringing his tournament list;
8 russ's of different variety including pask.
1 hydra
1 knight errant.
So... Yeah haha.
How does one tackle this?
Skyblight? Most of those tanks are going to suck at AA, and one Hydra is not going to kill all the MCs. I don't think the Tanks get OS, so the gargs can snipe objectives from them. A Wrecker Node comes to mind all. A 3 fex node has a decent chance of dropping a knight on HoW alone, a cheap melee fex still wrecks russes. The biggest issue is going to Pask and his shot volume. Maybe a t-fex to deal with that.
luke1705 wrote: I'm sure some of you guys have read Bigpig's tactics thread about what he calls the "Trapdoor Spider", either on Frontlinegaming or over on Tyranid Hive Proboards. I've seen some ideas over in both of those places (and I know many of us lurk in more than just one forum) but I'm curious to hear what you guys think about this play style. It sounds very interesting.
Spoiler:
But going a little further down the rabbit hole, how would you guys go about this type of play style if you decided to try it, even just hypothetically? What units would you use? How would they function with respect to the rest of your army (in case it's not obvious).
For those of you who haven't read the article, I'd highly recommend it, even just as a tactical approach to try in certain situations. To give a 60 second overview, the strategy hinges on the Malanthrope (or Venomthrope) giving much of your army a 2+ cover save, which is easier done than most people think. The part where the strategy diverges from what most people do is in the fact that it waits. Your army sits in the shrouded bubble (which I have affectionately termed "shroudstar") and makes the opponent come to you. You wait in your fortress of solitude until turn 3 or 4 being just ridiculously durable and doing what you can at range. If they come to you, you can pounce when the time is right, having taken very few casualties since you didn't have to march across the board - your opponent did it for you! How considerate of them.
The question of course then becomes - why on earth would they come to me? What can I do to get them to come to me? The first question is more common than most people think, since even if they get within 24 inches of you, which most armies will have to do, then you can strike with everything whenever you want. If they're outside of 24", your firepower is somewhat reduced, but we do still have Biovores, the Barbed Hierodule if your group allows it, and the Exocrine/Hive Guard have some reach (although they won't likely be dueling with 36" range units).
Even if they won't ever want to come to you, do they have 2+ cover? Probably not. In short, you can likely win a war of attrition, whittling down what you need to while taking almost no damage in return. In short, I definitely want to try this
BigPig is a talented player, and has a history of tournament performance to back him up. However, I think his article oversimplifies his actual playstyle a bit. It is a particular gambit that works very well against a selection of armies that are currently popular in the metas in which he plays, but I imagine that BigPig is also wise enough to recognize matchups where a different strategy is called for. For instance Tau. Adamantine Lance, and several others, and I think he would adjust his strategy to those lists as he faces them.
[7th edition rant] Much of the changes in 7th edition had the effect to limit the ability of gunlines to win the game. The fact that BigPig is able to find success creating a Tyranid gunline is a weird perversion of the 7th edition changes. It is my hope that as the wider meta begins to embrace 7th edition more fulling, this sort of strategy will fall by the wayside.[/rant]
I do think BigPigs strategy of limited board control is a better approach to most games than using JY2's strategy of working the corners and edges of the board while surrendering the middle to your opponent at the start of the game. I would generally offer a much more aggressive strategy of either midfield board control If I'm using a Barbed Heirodule, or Threat containment if I'm running a Flying Circus. My strategies difference to BigPig and JY2 mainly reflect that I play in a meta that embraced Maelstrom missions much more than their metas which are sticking with Eternal war primarily with limited Maelstrom influence. Also, I think all three of us end up going the way of JY2 if things start going very badly. I call it starfishing when you realize that you are unable to hold your tactical deployment, and have to spread out in a effort to avoid being overrun.
If BigPig encounters one of the things that his list fears, he would probably adopt a strategy more akin to my threat containment or JY2's "Positional Dominance". I think the most important thing to recognize is that no one strategy is a panacea, and while it is important to pick one initial strategic direction and build your list to accomplish that, you need to also be able to recognize when that approach isn't going to work, and adjust strategies on the fly.
My biggest critique of BigPig's approach, and the list he offered to utilize it, is that it struggles to function if another strategy is called for. I think a very small alteration to the list would make it much more versatile without surrendering very much when it comes to accomplishing its primary goal. That alteration would be to include a unit of 20 or so Gargoyles to allow for a tarpit / Roadblock / Deep strike deterrent / Screen depending on what is needed.
Other alternations like a second source of shrouding, or a defensive emplacement like a Void shield generator or Aegis line are reasonable as well, but I see why they might not fit in the list at the points allowed.
I have no serious objections to the "Trap door spider" stratagem, except... It is an established concept that "anyone who advances towards Tyranids, loses". And my own experiances tend to conferm...I think it is an example of a play style, presented as a strategy/build...I'm guessing BigPigs "style" is to wait for a mistake, then exploit it". My own is much the same. But I put unrelenting pressure through movement. He seems to use psychological pressure (the desire to Do Stuff!) Both methods should yield results. And as far as I know...they do.
From a "military theory" point of view, both methods have validity, by moving, and Outflanking I try to seize, and keep the initative. But defense is well know as a superior stratagem as well....and both can and do work.
I don't think I would be happy with a "Shroud castle", because I can see to many ways to counter it. (I kinda specialized in smashing Tau castles, till they went out of style) So I would not like usinging it. But really it is just taking basic "survive the Alpha" techniques, and expanding their use.
Wilson wrote: How do we do about tackling tank companies?
I.e the IG tank formation?
I'm taking on my bud later who's bringing his tournament list;
8 russ's of different variety including pask.
1 hydra
1 knight errant.
So... Yeah haha.
How does one tackle this?
Skyblight? Most of those tanks are going to suck at AA, and one Hydra is not going to kill all the MCs. I don't think the Tanks get OS, so the gargs can snipe objectives from them. A Wrecker Node comes to mind all. A 3 fex node has a decent chance of dropping a knight on HoW alone, a cheap melee fex still wrecks russes. The biggest issue is going to Pask and his shot volume. Maybe a t-fex to deal with that.
Hey Barnowl!
I've just got back from my friends house and that game went completely differently to how I imagined it!
I will be posting a bat rep on my blog tonight or tomorrow so if you don't want any spoilers and intend on checking it out - don't click below!
The knight was wrecked turn 2 by both flyrants and hive crone.
one of the mawloc popped up behind an executioner squad and did 2 pens when it came in and wrecked one of them( - lol, that'll never happen again.)
The dima being an absolute monster on the field drew so much fire away from the flyrants. he tanked so many wounds that could have gone else where. A real key player IMO. ( even if that's all he did - apart from look pretty too.
)
We called it at turn 6 as all he had left was 1 punisher, 2 vanquishers and the hydra.
I had FB ( Knight)
Warlord ( Pask)
Line breaker
Relic
6-0 to Nids!
Now I don't know if that list looks scarier on paper ( the IG list) or if I just outplayed my friend ( he's a good guy and great player so no disrespect to him!) but I lost 1 mawloc and the Dimachaeron in that game and that was it.
Also, Id liked to add that a Malanthrope in a ruin is just beautiful.
Wilson wrote: How do we do about tackling tank companies?
I.e the IG tank formation?
I'm taking on my bud later who's bringing his tournament list;
8 russ's of different variety including pask.
1 hydra
1 knight errant.
So... Yeah haha.
How does one tackle this?
Skyblight? Most of those tanks are going to suck at AA, and one Hydra is not going to kill all the MCs. I don't think the Tanks get OS, so the gargs can snipe objectives from them. A Wrecker Node comes to mind all. A 3 fex node has a decent chance of dropping a knight on HoW alone, a cheap melee fex still wrecks russes. The biggest issue is going to Pask and his shot volume. Maybe a t-fex to deal with that.
Hey Barnowl!
I've just got back from my friends house and that game went completely differently to how I imagined it!
I will be posting a bat rep on my blog tonight or tomorrow so if you don't want any spoilers and intend on checking it out - don't click below!
The knight was wrecked turn 2 by both flyrants and hive crone.
one of the mawloc popped up behind an executioner squad and did 2 pens when it came in and wrecked one of them( - lol, that'll never happen again.)
The dima being an absolute monster on the field drew so much fire away from the flyrants. he tanked so many wounds that could have gone else where. A real key player IMO. ( even if that's all he did - apart from look pretty too.
)
We called it at turn 6 as all he had left was 1 punisher, 2 vanquishers and the hydra.
I had FB ( Knight)
Warlord ( Pask)
Line breaker
Relic
6-0 to Nids!
Now I don't know if that list looks scarier on paper ( the IG list) or if I just outplayed my friend ( he's a good guy and great player so no disrespect to him!) but I lost 1 mawloc and the Dimachaeron in that game and that was it.
Also, Id liked to add that a Malanthrope in a ruin is just beautiful.
Odd that you didn't take out the Hydra fairly early. They die pretty easy, and can threaten your FMC's more than anything else except for the pask punisher.
jy2 wrote: Canoptek spiders are S6 T6 3W 3+ monstrous creatures who can give you a free 15-pt unit every turn. The kicker? They're only 50-pts each. WOW!!! So for 150-pts, you get 9 T6 Wounds that can give you 45-pts worth of units for free each turn. Compare that to a stock carnifex, who only gives you 1 4W T6 MC for 120-pts. Trust me, the spider is severely undercosted and is a basis for another of the Necron competitive builds - the Scarab-farm. In such an army you take 3x3 spiders who pump out 9 scarabs a turn. That's 27W of units each turn being produced by these spiders!!! Now if they can do it continuously for 5 turns, that's 45 scarabs or 135W worth of models over the course of the game!!!
It's definitely a different playstyle than 3 annihilation barges. Instead of generating a lot of shots, you are generating a lot of bodies.
So, I see where you are coming from. I have heard of this build. I've only had the opportunity to play against it once, and I took a very fluffy list, and stomped it. Turn 2 all of the Scarabs were dead. I threw 20 Hormagants into assault against the spiders and moved on. I guess there were only 3 Spiders so not quite the degree of spam you were suggestions.
My experience leads me to believe that perhaps the Scarab Farm isn't a terribly competitive necron build. I see how it could give Orks and marines difficulty, but Tau, Eldar, and Tyranids should be able to handle it with ease. In fact, shouldn't a Thunderfire cannon be able to wipe out a squad of Scarabs a turn?
The scarab farm isn't the most competitive Necron build. However, don't under-estimate it. It can be quite good. I've seen/heard it do very well in tournaments.
Of the 2 top Necron players at Nova recently, one was running Scarab-farm Necrons, while the other ran Necrons + Ork formation.
One of our fellow dakkalites, Norbu the Destroyer, has had some success with the scarab-farm in tournament play.
We also had 1 local player win a RTT with Scarab-farm Necrons, beating out mechdar and also a seer council army to do so.
It can be quite deceptive, especially if you run Zandrekh and a Destroyer Lord. Attach the D-lord to the farm to tank incoming shots with his 2+. Zandrekh can give the farm Stealth, Furious Charge, Tank Hunter and/or Hit-&-Run. Combine that with Prefered Enemy from the D-lord and the farm becomes quite effective. I've even seen the farm beat mechdar before, despite all those S7 cover-ignoring shots.
A thunderfire cannot put enough wounds to wipe out the farm unless you run 3, and even that may not do it. You can fire the S6 to insta-kill, but then the swarm will be getting Stealth cover, or you can fire the S5 Ignore Cover shots, but that won't insta-kill the scarabs.
Is it completely balanced? No, it's got its share of hard counters/bad matchups. But is it competitive? Yeah, I think it is.
SHUPPET wrote: I think the LAN is 450 points that would be much better as 3 Dakkafexes, or Crones if you insist they are better (possibly are but I doubt it, 450 pts of them will do a combined total of 2 HP all game with their tentaclids, and vektor striking every turn which you won't be able to do x3 will do an average of 1.5 wounds, in reality its gonna be lower than that - I think Dakkafexes are just leagues better even here).
Massed Shrikes is another option when building to beat Necrons I guess. I can't even envision how it would go so I'm gunna withhold any comments. Might leave the game a bit more playskill dependant however which is what you wanted right.
LAN is 390 points. The Biovores did alot of work. The Exocrine was my best chance at killing that destroyer Lord, unfortunately, Look Out Sirs saved him. The warriors were unspectacular, but would have taken on a squad of immortals if they hadn't failed a charge.
Would Dropping the LAN for Crones be a good call? Probably against this particular list. I don't think it yields a better TAC list. Dropping the LAN for another Flyrant would have helped me quite a lot. I still feel good about the LAN in a competitive list. I'm not quite ready to jettison it yet. But against Necrons a Trip flyrant list with Crones or Barbed Heirodule is definitely a better option.
The LAN is almost always useful. However, if your concern is anti-air, then there is a very simple solution that will still make your army a decent TAC list. Drop the LAN and go with self-allies (assuming this is allowed, which it is if going by BAO and Nova rules).
You will have to drop some support units to get this in, or you can probably swap out the hive crone for some biovores. The point is, the flyrant will be able to handle any of the units out there, from scarabs to flyers to the monolith. The crone is just secondary.
Strat_N8 wrote: In regards to Necrons, try a Tyrannofex or two. Your typical Necron list generally doesn't have much in the way of ranged AP2 and Tesla just bounces off (last time I brought a Tyrannofex against 'crons it took all 7 turns of sustained tesla fire to kill it). Meanwhile, both of the typical Tyrannofex templates are useful in the match-up (Acid Spay for clearing out Warriors in or out of Arks, Electroshock Grubs for vehicles), so it can't be entirely ignored.
The T-fex can be a good choice, though I am not as high on him as others have been. I much prefer the utility of a 3rd flyrant. The T-fex is something I'd consider if I didn't want to run too competitive of a list. But against one of the fastest armies in the game currently, you need a lot of speed to keep up and unfortunately, that isn't the T-fex.
DeviousDonut wrote: I was the Tyranid player at the invitational. The only tyranid player, I was running a single CAD with:
2 Flyrants + Devourers + ES Grubs (Duh)
Malanthrope
Tervigon
30 Gaunts
20 Gargoyles
Dimachaeron
2 Carnifexes + Devourers
Over all I went 6-1. I lost my very first game on Friday. And I blame that on having a very good opponent with 6 vendetta valkerye elysian drop troops that I was in no way prepared for, and the fact that I looked at the mission packet wrong. I didn't realize the Objectives were cumulative until turn 5. I argued with my opponent over the end game score but in the end decided it was my own fault for not reading the mission properly and gave him the win. My next games involved facing White Scar Grav Bikers with khan, Ork nob bikers supported by lots of artillery, DE, Triptide tau with farsight and a knight, A knight Castigator with imp guard and pask including 2 wyverns and a hydra on a skyshield. Then finally for the top of bracket 2 I ended up facing my original opponent again. 6 Valkyrie vendetta elysian troops all with melta bombs. This time around I was very careful with the mission and knew to give him first turn since he started entirely in reserve. I came away with the win and took the top of bracket 2.
Taken from the feast of blades tournament thread. This list is full of genius, what do you guys think?
The tervigon is still a good and often under-appreciated unit. I am not at all surprised that he was able to do well with it. Overall, it is a very balanced Tyranid list.
One thing that worked in favor of the Tyranid player was that the tournament was played at 1500. At lower points games, those TMC's and FMC's become harder and harder to deal with as people just don't have as many high-strength, low-AP guns, or resources, to deal with so many T6/flying units.
Iechine wrote: Of course things can go well for a good player in an environment that allows it. Terv is still 6 wounds and reproducing, Dima is still a beast in CC. Its not a list Id want to take simply on the grounds it starts with 50 small bodies I have to move in a tournament. : /
Im on nightshift tonight with nothing to do, so heres some discussion questions.
Next week Ill probably run in to a lot of armies I havent gotten to play much against ever. So what do I need to focus down when facing Necrons, Imperial Guard, and Orks? Thats to say, who is the focus for the quad tyrant Alpha strike?
Necrons - This is a tough one. AV13 is tough for Tyranids, especially when they can shoot so well with teslas. Almost every vehicle is a threat, not to mention those bargelords. Go after the night scythes at every opportunity that you can. You want to stop him from doing the Turn 5 objective drops. Beware of the night scythe alpha-strikes. Go 2nd and 1 strategy you may want to consider is to fly your flyrants off the table on Turn 1 and then have them come back on the table on Turn 2 after the Necron night scythes have come in. Keep all your guys within Shrouding range of the malanthrope but in ruins for the 2+ cover....you're going to need it against Necron shooting! Hide that malan/venom. Even with 2+ cover, he WILL NOT survive the concentrated fire of all those teslas. Fortunately for me, that is one of the reasons why I bring a bastion - it gives me protection from the likes of necrons, eldar and Tau.
Astra Militarum - honestly, I don't have too much experience against them in this edition. Depending on what they run - mech or blob infantry, your strategies will be much different. Blobs may be easier to deal with, especially if you are running LAN or biovores. But with a tank-heavy list, you need to somehow close the distance with your core army. Either ways, your flyrants will be a big plus here. A tank-heavy AM army will have trouble against flyrants (especially if you are running quad-flyrants) but against a blob army (or hybrid blob/tanks), you've got to focus all your dakka into them (pray he isn't running some type of psyker to give them Invisibility). For a quad-flyrant list backed by dakkafexes, the IG tank list is definitely the much easier one to deal with.
Orks - I really don't have very much experience with Orks in this edition as well. Tyranids can usually handle the standard ork lists. It's the formations you've got to watch out for. In any case, get your flyrants into the air and kill any transports that you can see (i.e. trukks). Battlewagons can be killed on Turn 2 when your flyrants can get into their rear arcs (or on Turn 1 even if orks are going 1st and they advance aggressively). But the main weakness of orks is their anti-air. Most ork players won't be spamming those anti-air guns of theirs and so you will have free reign over the skies. Skyblight will be a nightmare for most ork players, as should quad-flyrants.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tag8833 wrote: I've got a general question. I see 1 Malanthrope showing up in every list. I almost always lose a single Malanthrope in every game these days. Sometimes that and some gargoyles are all I lose in a game. Some of that has to do with my local meta being well trained and coached by me to beat tyranids. If I was running a ground pound army like the one above, I would want a 2nd Malanthrope so that I have flexibility in deployment and my army doesn't start falling apart when I lose 1 model.
I'm curious that not only do most tyranid players seem to run only one Malanthrope, but also they never seem to lose them. Do you think that as the general player base adapts, we will start seeing more people sniping out Malanthropes before firing fruitlessly into 2+ cover?
A single Malan in a bastion is one thing, but if you are making the long walk, and/or hoping for Master of Ambush, a 2nd Malanthrope would seem to be called for.
First of all, it is tough dealing with Tyranid biggies with 2+ cover. It takes a huge amount of firepower, which most casual lists won't be able to do. It is only against the high-firepower lists where you need to be concerned about redundancy for your Shroud-givers.
Secondly, you only need him there to mainly protect your army for 1 or 2 turns. If he's done that, then he's done his job and it then doesn't matter if he bites it or not.
Experienced players can make it work with a single malan/venomthrope, but only with the use of LOS-blockers or if they bring protection in the form of a bastion/bunker. Because if you are playing against the likes of Tau or Eldar without decent BLOS terrain, then it doesn't matter if you bring 1 or 2 malanthropes - they will both still die on Turn 1.
Mainly, you can thank your flyrants if your malanthrope survives. After Turn 1, your opponent should be too busy dealing with those flyrants to care about the malan/venom. Then after Turn 2, they'll be dealing with almost your entire army (assuming you are bringing shooty units) to have to worry about your malan/venom.
I run nothing but a single Venomthrope. I know right, no malanthropes, crazy! Pretty different to most, but then again - where others have two Malanthropes instead, I have an extra Carnifex. Does it die quickly? Obviously. But at 45 points, having LoS blocked by a Dakkafex pack or at the very least covered for a 3+ save, and in the early stages that is often 1 or two full units shooting that it absorbs, well and truly making its points back for me every game. Against anything with cover ignoring weaponry (my two most challenging opponents are, surprise surprise, a competitive Eldar and a competitive Tau player), I am not bringing a 1300 pt army to 1500 pt game. I feel like Malanthrope is pretty overrated, its a good model but not this auto-include musthave that many make it out to be, and taking 2 is really biting into a lot of points.
Let me ask you, have you ever tried running a malanthrope? Did you try it and then switched back to the venomthrope? If so, I am curious as to why.
It's like driving a Honda Civic, then upgrading your car to a BMW, and then dumping the BMW to go back to the Civic even though price/cost isn't a concern.
Necrons - This is a tough one. AV13 is tough for Tyranids, especially when they can shoot so well with teslas. Almost every vehicle is a threat, not to mention those bargelords. Go after the night scythes at every opportunity that you can. You want to stop him from doing the Turn 5 objective drops. Beware of the night scythe alpha-strikes. Go 2nd and 1 strategy you may want to consider is to fly your flyrants off the table on Turn 1 and then have them come back on the table on Turn 2 after the Necron night scythes have come in. Keep all your guys within Shrouding range of the malanthrope but in ruins for the 2+ cover....you're going to need it against Necron shooting! Hide that malan/venom. Even with 2+ cover, he WILL NOT survive the concentrated fire of all those teslas. Fortunately for me, that is one of the reasons why I bring a bastion - it gives me protection from the likes of necrons, eldar and Tau.
Astra Militarum - honestly, I don't have too much experience against them in this edition. Depending on what they run - mech or blob infantry, your strategies will be much different. Blobs may be easier to deal with, especially if you are running LAN or biovores. But with a tank-heavy list, you need to somehow close the distance with your core army. Either ways, your flyrants will be a big plus here. A tank-heavy AM army will have trouble against flyrants (especially if you are running quad-flyrants) but against a blob army (or hybrid blob/tanks), you've got to focus all your dakka into them (pray he isn't running some type of psyker to give them Invisibility). For a quad-flyrant list backed by dakkafexes, the IG tank list is definitely the much easier one to deal with.
Orks - I really don't have very much experience with Orks in this edition as well. Tyranids can usually handle the standard ork lists. It's the formations you've got to watch out for. In any case, get your flyrants into the air and kill any transports that you can see (i.e. trukks). Battlewagons can be killed on Turn 2 when your flyrants can get into their rear arcs (or on Turn 1 even if orks are going 1st and they advance aggressively). But the main weakness of orks is their anti-air. Most ork players won't be spamming those anti-air guns of theirs and so you will have free reign over the skies. Skyblight will be a nightmare for most ork players, as should quad-flyrants.
Hey man, thanks. One issue Ive yet to learn is when to go second...against most armies I feel first is best, especially for the quad tyrant setup. Ill keep that in mind with the necrons.
One thing I forgot and havent read in this thread yet, how are the new Hellfrost Space Wolf weapons being handled? Should I fear them if I get a SW matchup?
Im also considering my strategy for running up against a drop pod army with my list. Bunker/corner up with my tyrants around the malanthrope and my 30 gargoyles as widely spaced as possible to stop the alpha as much as possible seems like the best/only option, unless anyone has other ideas. (Besides list changing, Im stuck with what I have at this point)
Necrons - This is a tough one. AV13 is tough for Tyranids, especially when they can shoot so well with teslas. Almost every vehicle is a threat, not to mention those bargelords. Go after the night scythes at every opportunity that you can. You want to stop him from doing the Turn 5 objective drops. Beware of the night scythe alpha-strikes. Go 2nd and 1 strategy you may want to consider is to fly your flyrants off the table on Turn 1 and then have them come back on the table on Turn 2 after the Necron night scythes have come in. Keep all your guys within Shrouding range of the malanthrope but in ruins for the 2+ cover....you're going to need it against Necron shooting! Hide that malan/venom. Even with 2+ cover, he WILL NOT survive the concentrated fire of all those teslas. Fortunately for me, that is one of the reasons why I bring a bastion - it gives me protection from the likes of necrons, eldar and Tau.
Astra Militarum - honestly, I don't have too much experience against them in this edition. Depending on what they run - mech or blob infantry, your strategies will be much different. Blobs may be easier to deal with, especially if you are running LAN or biovores. But with a tank-heavy list, you need to somehow close the distance with your core army. Either ways, your flyrants will be a big plus here. A tank-heavy AM army will have trouble against flyrants (especially if you are running quad-flyrants) but against a blob army (or hybrid blob/tanks), you've got to focus all your dakka into them (pray he isn't running some type of psyker to give them Invisibility). For a quad-flyrant list backed by dakkafexes, the IG tank list is definitely the much easier one to deal with.
Orks - I really don't have very much experience with Orks in this edition as well. Tyranids can usually handle the standard ork lists. It's the formations you've got to watch out for. In any case, get your flyrants into the air and kill any transports that you can see (i.e. trukks). Battlewagons can be killed on Turn 2 when your flyrants can get into their rear arcs (or on Turn 1 even if orks are going 1st and they advance aggressively). But the main weakness of orks is their anti-air. Most ork players won't be spamming those anti-air guns of theirs and so you will have free reign over the skies. Skyblight will be a nightmare for most ork players, as should quad-flyrants.
Hey man, thanks. One issue Ive yet to learn is when to go second...against most armies I feel first is best, especially for the quad tyrant setup. Ill keep that in mind with the necrons.
One thing I forgot and havent read in this thread yet, how are the new Hellfrost Space Wolf weapons being handled? Should I fear them if I get a SW matchup?
Im also considering my strategy for running up against a drop pod army with my list. Bunker/corner up with my tyrants around the malanthrope and my 30 gargoyles as widely spaced as possible to stop the alpha as much as possible seems like the best/only option, unless anyone has other ideas. (Besides list changing, Im stuck with what I have at this point)
Necrons almost always want to go 2nd. That is because their alpha-strike isn't really that strong (they are more of a beta-strike army when their night scythes come in). However, their ability to capture objectives going 2nd is second to none. That is why you almost always want to go 2nd against Necrons. You can survive their alpha-strike and you want to prevent them from doing their last turn objective-grabs. Moreover, going 2nd, you can fly your flyrants into reserves, wait until their night scythes come in on Turn 2 and then beta-strike their flyers.
Helfrost weapons are about as bad as wraithknight distort weapons....if he rolls a 6 to wound, you better make your cover or you will lose your MC. However, they do lack volume to make me really too concerned. As for the SW flyers themselves, they're about as hard to deal with as the stormraven. Just kill everything on the ground first.
Against drop pod marines, you want to deploy in the zone that has ruins. You NEED the 2+ cover against them. Otherwise, it's going to hurt. Fortunately for you, most marines (other than the Legion of the Damned) cannot ignore cover so you have a decent chance to survive their alpha-strike....depending on how pods come down on T1.
tag8833 wrote: I've got a general question. I see 1 Malanthrope showing up in every list. I almost always lose a single Malanthrope in every game these days. Sometimes that and some gargoyles are all I lose in a game. Some of that has to do with my local meta being well trained and coached by me to beat tyranids. If I was running a ground pound army like the one above, I would want a 2nd Malanthrope so that I have flexibility in deployment and my army doesn't start falling apart when I lose 1 model.
I'm curious that not only do most tyranid players seem to run only one Malanthrope, but also they never seem to lose them. Do you think that as the general player base adapts, we will start seeing more people sniping out Malanthropes before firing fruitlessly into 2+ cover?
A single Malan in a bastion is one thing, but if you are making the long walk, and/or hoping for Master of Ambush, a 2nd Malanthrope would seem to be called for.
First of all, it is tough dealing with Tyranid biggies with 2+ cover. It takes a huge amount of firepower, which most casual lists won't be able to do. It is only against the high-firepower lists where you need to be concerned about redundancy for your Shroud-givers.
Secondly, you only need him there to mainly protect your army for 1 or 2 turns. If he's done that, then he's done his job and it then doesn't matter if he bites it or not.
Experienced players can make it work with a single malan/venomthrope, but only with the use of LOS-blockers or if they bring protection in the form of a bastion/bunker. Because if you are playing against the likes of Tau or Eldar without decent BLOS terrain, then it doesn't matter if you bring 1 or 2 malanthropes - they will both still die on Turn 1.
Mainly, you can thank your flyrants if your malanthrope survives. After Turn 1, your opponent should be too busy dealing with those flyrants to care about the malan/venom. Then after Turn 2, they'll be dealing with almost your entire army (assuming you are bringing shooty units) to have to worry about your malan/venom.
I don't build lists for best case matchups. When I'm looking at the number of shrouding units I need, I'm looking at armies with some amount of Ignore cover or extreme firepower.
LOS blocking is a thing but the Malanthrope is a Tall model, and so many LOS blockers can't hide it. As I said, if you Take a Malan and a bastion you are fine, but I wouldn't expect to see enough LOS blockers to help you out in most games. Especially against the sort of things that are most likely to kill a Malanthrope (Wave Serpents, Riptides, Skyrays, Legion of the Damned), plus because most LOS blocking terrain is also impassible, it means you don't get your 2+ when something does see you.
The other thing that one Malan does for you is preclude the use of Master of Ambush warlord trait, or any other deployment versatility.
Though I would consider your lists to be less representative of this trend because you normal have a bastion to protect you Malan which fixes most of my concerns.
Wilson wrote: How do we do about tackling tank companies?
I.e the IG tank formation?
I'm taking on my bud later who's bringing his tournament list;
8 russ's of different variety including pask.
1 hydra
1 knight errant.
So... Yeah haha.
How does one tackle this?
Skyblight? Most of those tanks are going to suck at AA, and one Hydra is not going to kill all the MCs. I don't think the Tanks get OS, so the gargs can snipe objectives from them. A Wrecker Node comes to mind all. A 3 fex node has a decent chance of dropping a knight on HoW alone, a cheap melee fex still wrecks russes. The biggest issue is going to Pask and his shot volume. Maybe a t-fex to deal with that.
Hey Barnowl!
I've just got back from my friends house and that game went completely differently to how I imagined it!
I will be posting a bat rep on my blog tonight or tomorrow so if you don't want any spoilers and intend on checking it out - don't click below!
The knight was wrecked turn 2 by both flyrants and hive crone.
one of the mawloc popped up behind an executioner squad and did 2 pens when it came in and wrecked one of them( - lol, that'll never happen again.)
The dima being an absolute monster on the field drew so much fire away from the flyrants. he tanked so many wounds that could have gone else where. A real key player IMO. ( even if that's all he did - apart from look pretty too.
)
We called it at turn 6 as all he had left was 1 punisher, 2 vanquishers and the hydra.
I had FB ( Knight)
Warlord ( Pask)
Line breaker
Relic
6-0 to Nids!
Now I don't know if that list looks scarier on paper ( the IG list) or if I just outplayed my friend ( he's a good guy and great player so no disrespect to him!) but I lost 1 mawloc and the Dimachaeron in that game and that was it.
Also, Id liked to add that a Malanthrope in a ruin is just beautiful.
Odd that you didn't take out the Hydra fairly early. They die pretty easy, and can threaten your FMC's more than anything else except for the pask punisher.
Hey Tag,
I kept the Crone out of LOS from Hydra after the first turn - so it wasn't all that much of a big threat.
anyway, I've written up the game and posted on my blog.
Let me ask you, have you ever tried running a malanthrope? Did you try it and then switched back to the venomthrope? If so, I am curious as to why.
I don't own the model but I had a few games using my Doom model to represent one (seems like the best use for Doom conversions in 7th) so while it may have had sizing differences I do n think it was too far off. And every game, at no stage did I ever feel it was worth dedicating extra points towards, it was just a Venomthrope who is much harder to block LoS to. There isn't many shooting units that will kill a Venom but not a Malanthrope, the margin isn't big enough. I don't want to dedicate more points to my first blood bait model. It's personal choice as I said, but you are fooling yourself if you think taking a Malanthrope in a bastion is an inherently better choice than taking a single Venom. While you might have a slightly tougher cover-provider, I have a stronger army elsewhere. You need to recognise that it's a balanced trade off and Malanthropes are far from the auto-include that you list them as, because while it's stats and rules are better than a Venom, ithe most important stat of all, it's point cost, is twice as worse as the Venom. There IS a very real sacrifice to be made by taking a Malan, just because it's a small one doesn't mean it can't hurt your efficiency.
Let me ask you, have you ever tried running a malanthrope? Did you try it and then switched back to the venomthrope? If so, I am curious as to why.
I don't own the model but I had a few games using my Doom model to represent one (seems like the best use for Doom conversions in 7th) so while it may have had sizing differences I do n think it was too far off. And every game, at no stage did I ever feel it was worth dedicating extra points towards, it was just a Venomthrope who is much harder to block LoS to. There isn't many shooting units that will kill a Venom but not a Malanthrope, the margin isn't big enough. I don't want to dedicate more points to my first blood bait model. It's personal choice as I said, but you are fooling yourself if you think taking a Malanthrope in a bastion is an inherently better choice than taking a single Venom. While you might have a slightly tougher cover-provider, I have a stronger army elsewhere. You need to recognise that it's a balanced trade off and Malanthropes are far from the auto-include that you list them as, because while it's stats and rules are better than a Venom, ithe most important stat of all, it's point cost, is twice as worse as the Venom. There IS a very real sacrifice to be made by taking a Malan, just because it's a small one doesn't mean it can't hurt your efficiency.
Throwing the Malanthrope (or even a Venomthrope) inside a bastion is pretty expensive, though not without its benefits. However, the mere 40 points that it costs to upgrade a Venomthrope into a Malanthrope offer a pretty significant durability boost. Some things that ignore cover are low strength or high ap, which means that they will struggle more to put unsaved wounds on a Malanthrope. You gain twice as many wounds, immunity to strength 8 instant death, and synapse (meaning he can babysit backfield units if you need that). Plus, he has regen! Sure it won't make a huge difference every game to gain wound(s) back, but even a single wound that durable is worth something. Remember that the Venomthrope only has a 5+ save inherently, so any ap5 ignores cover will make it fold like a wet paper bag. The Malanthrope doesn't care unless it's ap3. Even if it's a serpent shield or something else that's high/no ap, the Malanthrope still saves twice as many wounds (before factoring in the increased toughness). The only benefits of the Venomthrope are being cheaper and easier to hide out of LOS. If you need those points for a specific build that you want or can't/won't use/buy a Malanthrope, then that's one thing. I would argue that the Malanthrope is probably a much more efficient use of points due to the ridiculous increase in durability if you run a Venomthrope, but it's not like you can't play Tyranids without him. But pretending that you're making your army worse by getting a much better Venomthrope for a small increase in cost is pretty far-fetched in my meta.
That being said, I don't mean to discredit Shuppet's experiences. It's possible that he doesn't face Wave Serpents, Thunderfire cannons, or other popular ignores cover items. It's possible that he doesn't face many alpha-strike armies that employ meltas or long range strength 8 that can instagib the Venomthrope on a lucky shot. I face all of these things often, so I wouldn't leave home without a Malanthrope, but everyone's meta is their own
luke1705 wrote: But pretending to hat you're making your army worse by getting a much better Venomthrope for a small increase in cost is pretty far-fetched in my meta.
And pretending that I said things that I didn't is a pretty weak way to twist an argument in your favour. I've quite clearly said that they are options that are on par with each other, and subject to personal opinion, and that I'd never tell someone they are making the wrong choice by picking a Malanthrope and that it's just far from an auto include when there are other options on par with it. But sure, twist my words into me saying this, I mean it helps further your point right?
That being said, I don't mean to discredit Shuppet's experiences. It's possible that he doesn't face Wave Serpents, Thunderfire cannons, or other popular ignores cover items. It's possible that he doesn't face many alpha-strike armies that employ meltas or long range strength 8 that can instagib the Venomthrope on a lucky shot. I face all of these things often, so I wouldn't leave home without a Malanthrope, but everyone's meta is their own
Nice. I actually do face this sort of stuff though as I did mention, and it's exactly what helps mold my decisions on list building. Infact didn't I specifically mention that my two hardest opponents are Eldar, and Tau. I play a bit by the logic if you can beat the best, you can beat the worst. I do to build to take on my easier matches, I build my TAC to deal with the hardest. Exactly why I would want more points dumped into the durability of a cover save provider against Wave Serpents, or against Tau makes nonsense to me, I'd rather block Line of Sight to a smaller model and do it cheaper too, it's the difference between what, 1 volley of shooting from a Wave Serpent, and likely no difference at all in the Tau match up where they will be using a unit that can 1 volley it anyway, to synergise with the markerlights, making Venom a FAR better choice there without a doubt? That LoS is far more relevant than you give it credit for, ESPECIALLY against ignores cover. Also, what you need to realise is that 40 points is ALWAYS relevant. It's the difference between taking a Carnifex and taking a Dima. It's the difference between taking 3 Warriors and taking a Mawloc. If you aren't using every point available in the most efficient way possible, you are playing a worse list than someone who does. That being said, I don't dump those 40 points into my army per we, I use them to pay the bulk of a Zoanthrope to give me the Synapse coverage I lose from not having the Malan, and giving me 2 WC and an extra roll hoping for Onslaught. It's much more relevant to me than a bit of extra durability. The best ya to do it for every list? Certainly not, plenty of lists (namely Flyrant spam) would much rather the synapse points put into the durability of a Malan, or use to upgrade a troop squad into a squad of warriors for extra aggression, than an extra Onslaught roll. However for my list, it's the better way to do it, which is my supporting argument for the statement that Malanthrope isn't an auto include, because fact is sometimes it's the less efficient choice.
The venomthrope is to the malanthrope what a close-combat walkrant is to a dakka flyrant. In terms of basic needs, they both fill the same role as synapse provider and psychic beacon. And if you take a walkrant , yeah, you save on some points to use for the rest of your army.
But if you are taking a walkrant/venom over a flyrant/malanthrope, then you and I are playing 2 very different games.
The only reason the malanthrope isn't an auto-include is if you want to dumb down your list or if you are going for a certain Tyranid theme (or if Forgeworld isn't allowed in your meta).
Nice, well I'm pretty sure while taking a walkrant over a Flyrant is completely underutilising the model and paying a bunch of unnecessary points for what is basically a Dakkafex, while there is plenty of purpose to taking a Venom+Zope instead of a Malanthrope that you are often not going to see any return from its added durability or niche special rules. But we can ignore that I guess.
Even more so if you are taking a bastion seeing as the durability is a moot point. Although it may give you some late game bearing out of the Mal its probably going to be less relevant than a Catalyst roll, or Onslaught roll depending on your list. But whatever, I'm not arguing that its a bad choice, just that its not the only one and not always the best one. I think the only "dumbing down" of Nid gameplay is assuming that just because it has better stats and is still fairly cheap that it MUST be the best option and anything else is subpar. You need to look deeper into the cost of opportunity encumbered by spending more points on anything.
SHUPPET wrote: There isn't many shooting units that will kill a Venom but not a Malanthrope, the margin isn't big enough. I don't want to dedicate more points to my first blood bait model. It's personal choice as I said, but you are fooling yourself if you think taking a Malanthrope in a bastion is an inherently better choice than taking a single Venom. While you might have a slightly tougher cover-provider, I have a stronger army elsewhere. You need to recognise that it's a balanced trade off and Malanthropes are far from the auto-include that you list them as, because while it's stats and rules are better than a Venom, ithe most important stat of all, it's point cost, is twice as worse as the Venom. There IS a very real sacrifice to be made by taking a Malan, just because it's a small one doesn't mean it can't hurt your efficiency.
The last sentence is where you imply that you're making tradeoffs, "sacrifices", as you call them, saying that it can hurt your efficiency. To me, that sounds like you're saying the army at least could be worse by the inclusion of a Malanthrope over a Venomthrope. Although not every army needs to have a Malanthrope, the only point I'm trying to make it that it's very good, and much better than a Venomthrope in nearly every situation. It's also worth pointing out that a Malanthrope isn't just first blood bait - even when not out of LOS it can often survive and allow you to obtain first blood, even when you're going second. That's a big deal in many missions, and to me the definition of "return on added durability", even if it just takes more shots to down (which it will without exception).
That being said, I don't mean to discredit Shuppet's experiences. It's possible that he doesn't face Wave Serpents, Thunderfire cannons, or other popular ignores cover items. It's possible that he doesn't face many alpha-strike armies that employ meltas or long range strength 8 that can instagib the Venomthrope on a lucky shot. I face all of these things often, so I wouldn't leave home without a Malanthrope, but everyone's meta is their own
Nice. I actually do face this sort of stuff though as I did mention, and it's exactly what helps mold my decisions on list building. Infact didn't I specifically mention that my two hardest opponents are Eldar, and Tau. I play a bit by the logic if you can beat the best, you can beat the worst. I do to build to take on my easier matches, I build my TAC to deal with the hardest. Exactly why I would want more points dumped into the durability of a cover save provider against Wave Serpents, or against Tau makes nonsense to me, I'd rather block Line of Sight to a smaller model and do it cheaper too, it's the difference between what, 1 volley of shooting from a Wave Serpent, and likely no difference at all in the Tau match up where they will be using a unit that can 1 volley it anyway, to synergise with the markerlights, making Venom a FAR better choice there without a doubt? That LoS is far more relevant than you give it credit for, ESPECIALLY against ignores cover. Also, what you need to realise is that 40 points is ALWAYS relevant. It's the difference between taking a Carnifex and taking a Dima. It's the difference between taking 3 Warriors and taking a Mawloc. If you aren't using every point available in the most efficient way possible, you are playing a worse list than someone who does. That being said, I don't dump those 40 points into my army per we, I use them to pay the bulk of a Zoanthrope to give me the Synapse coverage I lose from not having the Malan, and giving me 2 WC and an extra roll hoping for Onslaught. It's much more relevant to me than a bit of extra durability. The best ya to do it for every list? Certainly not, plenty of lists (namely Flyrant spam) would much rather the synapse points put into the durability of a Malan, or use to upgrade a troop squad into a squad of warriors for extra aggression, than an extra Onslaught roll. However for my list, it's the better way to do it, which is my supporting argument for the statement that Malanthrope isn't an auto include, because fact is sometimes it's the less efficient choice.
I do see the desire for more warp charge, and I don't disagree with it. I'm also not saying that your approach is wrong, that it can't work, or that it can't have synergy and win games. I myself am working on a list that has two single squads of Zoans to give a bunch of warp charge. I completely agree that those 40 points are relevant and I'm simply saying that in my meta, and against many top tier armies that employ the units I've listed above, plus many other units, the points efficiency of the Malanthrope is simply so much higher than the Venomthrope that it's hard to overlook. You can certainly field a Venomthrope instead of a Malanthrope, but in most situations that will end worse for you, no matter what else you do with those 40 points.
SHUPPET wrote: I think the only "dumbing down" of Nid gameplay is assuming that just because it has better stats and is still fairly cheap that it MUST be the best option and anything else is subpar. You need to look deeper into the cost of opportunity encumbered by spending more points on anything.
Seems like a fairly reasonable assumption to me, one rooted in statistics and probability. The opportunity cost of taking a Malanthrope is much lower than the opportunity cost of taking a Venomthrope.
luke1705 wrote: But pretending to hat you're making your army worse by getting a much better Venomthrope for a small increase in cost is pretty far-fetched in my meta.
And pretending that I said things that I didn't is a pretty weak way to twist an argument in your favour. I've quite clearly said that they are options that are on par with each other, and subject to personal opinion, and that I'd never tell someone they are making the wrong choice by picking a Malanthrope and that it's just far from an auto include when there are other options on par with it. But sure, twist my words into me saying this, I mean it helps further your point right?
See the below quote for where you said that the Malanthrope can be worse than a Venomthrope. My apologies if I misunderstood your use of a double-negative, as well as the phrase "twice as worse"
I said it CAN be worse than the Venom, in specific lists. Making the Malanthrope not an auto-include, even if the other options are not inherently better, they are not inherently worse. EG Flyrant is an auto-include, no other option is on par with it - not the case here. You know what I'm saying here, stop pretending you don't.
Also, taking three words out of my post DELIBERATELY misconstruing the context of those 3 words, is not a "phrase". That's merely 3 words excerpted from a phrase, with the intention of doing what I just stated. Thus, you are making it look as tho I am saying the Malanthrope is "twice as worse" as the Venom, as that would further your argument, when in reality:
Shuppet wrote:it's stats and rules are better than a Venom [...] it's point cost is twice as worse
Having to resort to this sort of crap hurts your point of view more than it helps it, please try to argue the actual point I'm making, not embellish one for me and argue against that.
SHUPPET wrote: I think the only "dumbing down" of Nid gameplay is assuming that just because it has better stats and is still fairly cheap that it MUST be the best option and anything else is subpar. You need to look deeper into the cost of opportunity encumbered by spending more points on anything.
Seems like a fairly reasonable assumption to me, one rooted in statistics and probability. The opportunity cost of taking a Malanthrope is much lower than the opportunity cost of taking a Venomthrope.
Yet an assumption nontheless, and quite an easy an obvious one to make when comparing the models at surface level one is obviously better, yet when you look deeper, you can see that having a roll on a table of 5 spells with 3 positive results, 2 more warp charges to your pool, and your thrope being able to hide from LOS at the cost of 2 wounds and a point of toughness, for almost the exact same price, can often easily outweigh the durability difference between a Malanthrope and Venomthrope, especially in a meta where one unit can kill both of them just as easily, as well as in a meta where cover saves are rarely allowed and doubling down on on strictly that will not in a lot of match ups be the most efficient use of points for the aggression or Powers such a decision is costing you.
It's far from as one-sided as you would like to admit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just a thought, it's obvious what I am talking about when I say Zope (Zoanthrope), can we please use Vope and Mope to shorten the Venomthrope and the Malanthrope Malan sounds weird and Venom is the name of another 40k unit that I'm sure we are all too familiar with =/
Shuppet, if a model in not inherently better, and it is not exactly the same, it has to be worse. That's how inequalities work. It may be marginally worse, but it's worse nonetheless. I'm not trying to change what you said - only pointing out (for the final time) that I think the points are spent incredibly effectively, even though there's a points markup. I see that you believe the points can be spent best elsewhere, like in a Zoanthrope. I just don't see the pros outweighing the cons, but to each their own. Your experiences are your experiences. I would love to hear about them in detail some time, even if just in the form of an abbreviated battle report since most tournament-goers that I've heard from (as well as my own experiences) seem to indicate that the Malanthrope outperforms the Venomthrope + Zoanthrope combo. I just haven't seen good returns from the warp charges, and all too often BLOS terrain has less-than-ideal placement, if it exists at all. Especially when you're trying to hide a solo Zoanthrope and a solo Venomthrope.
And you're welcome to call them whatever you like - I agree that it's pretty clear what you're referring to
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm curious to know what you guys think about the Harridan though - does it take up too many points to be good for what it does? I mean, you're guaranteed line breaker, it can operate on its own and I can't think of any list that could regularly kill it. It alone rules the skies.....but it takes up a hefty chunk of a list, even at 1850. And you get much of the same from a Barbed Hierodule at 170 less points. Is the mobility and ridiculous durability worth the points? I know most tournaments won't allow it, but for normal games I wonder if it will be a help or a hindrance for Nids
luke1705 wrote: I'm curious to know what you guys think about the Harridan though - does it take up too many points to be good for what it does? I mean, you're guaranteed line breaker, it can operate on its own and I can't think of any list that could regularly kill it. It alone rules the skies.....but it takes up a hefty chunk of a list, even at 1850. And you get much of the same from a Barbed Hierodule at 170 less points. Is the mobility and ridiculous durability worth the points? I know most tournaments won't allow it, but for normal games I wonder if it will be a help or a hindrance for Nids
Its good. I don't own one. If I did, I wouldn't be able to play it except in a very few pre negotiated games. Not worth it to me.
Unless you heavily pre-negotiate games then it will leave you opponent with feel badsies. They won't be able to effectively hurt it, so they don't get to participate in a meaningful fashion in large chunks of the game. It doesn't mean they can't beat you, just that it won't be fun for them to play against you.
The reason the Barbed Heirodule is widely accepted is most opponents have it in their capacity to kill it. It isn't significantly tougher than a Wraith knight. The Harridan is. Even with the Barbed Heirodule, I can't play it against 50% of opponents because it frightens / overwhelms them and they interpret any victory as me relying on OP models.
The other day I ran a Barbed Heirodule alongside Death Leaper, Genestealers, Lictors, and Trygons, and I had to apologize effusively for beating him to keep him happy and engaged. It was my intention to run a list so bad around the Heirodule that I could still lose the game, and he would be less scared of it in the future. The Genestealer and lictors died as expect turn 1, unfortunately Deathleaper drastically over performed, and the Barbed Heirodule did lots and lots of work resulting in me prepared to table him on turn 4, so I "forgot" to roll for the Trygons on turn 3 and said (truthfully) that I was late for a party and had to go after his turn 3. If he had used better target priority he could have killed the Heirodule and tabled me instead. But it intimidates him into not shooting at it.
Part of the reason I love Nids is that they are looked at as a weaker army, making victories so much more satisfying. I mean, when you beat Nids with Tau what have you really left with? But when you beat Tau with Nids, your the fething man!
GC's in standard play would be the quickest thing I could do to do both deflate that feeling AND give my opponents a cop out when they lose, "oh you only won because _____" which can often further deflate a good victory.
I don't play for the win btw - i play for the challenge, winning is a good feeling when the odds are against you however!
All this being said, I have a Heirophant waiting to be made. Let em call my victories falsified. That thing is just too cool.
I might even give my opponents an extra 500 pts of models playing against a big bad LoW's from our army, I just want to have fun with the model I couldn't even care if he gets roflstomped haha, you could try something similar with your opponents, make it a scenario type thing. Or take on 2 people at once with your Harridan, yeah you'll probably lose but it will definitely be a fun experience, take a 2000 pt list and go up against 2x 1500 or even 2000 and watch the shrapnel fly.
I'd say if you want to play one and have fun with, grab it, you'll find a way for everybody to enjoy it. If you are wondering if it is a worthwhile purchase for game winning however, probably don't buy it, because win or lose people will quickly stop playing you, and thats the fastest way to stop winning games - not getting them in the first place.
SHUPPET wrote: Part of the reason I love Nids is that they are looked at as a weaker army, making victories so much more satisfying. I mean, when you beat Nids with Tau what have you really left with? But when you beat Tau with Nids, your the fething man!
THis is why I picked up Daemonhunter...that and their shining badassery.
Kind of a new nid player here, i recently began my swarm..i have 16 termis, 16 horms, 8 genestealers, 3 nid warriors and a tyrant..i'm curious what a good next step would be? keep in mind this is my 100% fun army to play..also whats solid options for armor busting in the nids codex?
Thats the question we'd all like to know... Your best bet is Dakkafex or Crone. Both are pretty terrible at this role (Crone p bad in general) but long story short you didnt pick a great army for having "fun" lol options that arent insanely bad are really limited.
Crimson Heretic wrote: Kind of a new nid player here, i recently began my swarm..i have 16 termis, 16 horms, 8 genestealers, 3 nid warriors and a tyrant..i'm curious what a good next step would be? keep in mind this is my 100% fun army to play..also whats solid options for armor busting in the nids codex?
Carnifex with Devourers is a great choice, but I think the Venomthrope probably takes precedence given what you have to work with. You will need that cover save to move that army up the field intact.
Your best thing to get would be wings for that tyrant if he doesn't already have them. You can also give him a thorax upgrade that is haywire for help with tanks. Especially when you can maneuver to get side/rear armor on tanks, 1 haywire plus 6 str 6 twin linked shots are often enough to do the job, or at least take multiple hull points.
Outside of the tyrant, Carnifexes are indeed good, although slow.
Shuppet wrote:it's stats and rules are better than a Venom [...] it's point cost is twice as worse
Having to resort to this sort of crap hurts your point of view more than it helps it, please try to argue the actual point I'm making, not embellish one for me and argue against that.
To be fair to luke, using the word "worse" here confuses your intent. "Better" and "worse" are judgment words, not factual ones. More points doesn't strictly mean it's worse, as models can be rather efficient for their cost. You're right, you do get better stats with the Mope (heh.) for twice the cost. But saying it's twice as worse is kind of nonsensical, because it depends on what you've purchased for the cost, not on the cost itself. So I can see why he's not clear on what you're trying to say. Luke's caught up in your language, sure. But I wouldn't say he's reframing your argument and embellishing.
I will add that 2 extra wounds and 1 point of toughness is at least twice as good as the original profile, and then you trade 2 Warp Dice and 10 points for Fleet, Regenerate, and occasional Preferred Enemy.
Yet an assumption nontheless, and quite an easy an obvious one to make when comparing the models at surface level one is obviously better, yet when you look deeper, you can see that having a roll on a table of 5 spells with 3 positive results, 2 more warp charges to your pool, and your thrope being able to hide from LOS at the cost of 2 wounds and a point of toughness, for almost the exact same price, can often easily outweigh the durability difference between a Malanthrope and Venomthrope, especially in a meta where one unit can kill both of them just as easily...
This is actually a really interesting point. While the Malanthrope has more inherent durability, it also relies more heavily on that durability because you can't hide it. That being said, Barrage is a thing, and I think many players are reluctant to consider LOS Terrain in their list building. In deployment, obviously, but you wouldn't usually know which LOS terrain pieces are available or where they'll be on the board. If you can't block LOS, then the Vope is certainly dead and those 45 points went toward directing about 1 unit's shooting phase.
...as well as in a meta where cover saves are rarely allowed and doubling down on on strictly that will not in a lot of match ups be the most efficient use of points for the aggression or Powers such a decision is costing you.
The other side of this (that I feel you gloss over) is luke's point about Ignoring Cover vs Strength and AP. Most of the ranged fire that ignores cover seems much more effective against Vopes than Mopes (heh.), where as most of the fire that nukes a Mope (heh.) often needs to punch through it's defences.
Shuppet, if a model in not inherently better, and it is not exactly the same, it has to be worse. That's how inequalities work.
And luke, this is just a false statement. First, to even get into better and worse requires context, and two models that are different could very easily equally useful or irrelevant in a given circumstance. One model is not necessarily better, worse, or equal to a different model.
One thing I'd say when gaining advice is not to always listen to the first person who comes at you with a definite answer. Some people have vastly different ideas of how the game is played, play in a strange meta (in terms of unit choice) or just don't understand the unit mechanics.
That being said, if you're not going to take a heriodule, then we don't really have any good options. (think of using a screw driver end to hammer a nail). Electro-shock grubs is probably the best one.
I'm going to assume that you want to use everything you've bought already and that you want to stick with the fun theme (rather than ultra competitive).
First thing I'd add is the Swarmlord. This thing has a lot of army buffing abilities with +1 to reserves, ML3 and one unit gains one of a few USRs.
Next, I'd look at a few Dakkafexes. These things work pretty well with shooting and assaulting. If you want to dual role them most effectively, I'd also add on adrenal glands.
From there, I'd add a venomthrope or a malanthrope (depending if FW is allowed or not). The malanthrope is the superior choice (despite the opinion of a single poster) but a venomthrope can work pretty well if you're lucky. This guy lets your ground force move up with shrouding.
Then you have a lot of options from there depending on how you want to play:
More smaller TR bugs (+ gargoyles)
More monsters
Tervigon to spawn gants
Flying hive tyrant + Crone
Exocrine + 3 biovore to add on Living Artillery Node
I don't play this style very often, but I always do have fun with a big massive blob moving up.
NamelessBard wrote: First thing I'd add is the Swarmlord. This thing has a lot of army buffing abilities with +1 to reserves, ML3 and one unit gains one of a few USRs.
Swarmlord is definitely a unit for fun casual games. The main advantage is that you won't face an army unable to deal with it if they choose to. However, I would recommend that you take a Tyrant and you magnetize him. That way you can give him 4 swords for Swarmlord or Wings and 4 TL-Devourers for a Dakka Flyrant. I switch between the two quite often, and it is much easier than having 2 separate models.
luke1705 wrote: I'm sure some of you guys have read Bigpig's tactics thread about what he calls the "Trapdoor Spider", either on Frontlinegaming or over on Tyranid Hive Proboards. I've seen some ideas over in both of those places (and I know many of us lurk in more than just one forum) but I'm curious to hear what you guys think about this play style. It sounds very interesting.
But going a little further down the rabbit hole, how would you guys go about this type of play style if you decided to try it, even just hypothetically? What units would you use? How would they function with respect to the rest of your army (in case it's not obvious).
For those of you who haven't read the article, I'd highly recommend it, even just as a tactical approach to try in certain situations. To give a 60 second overview, the strategy hinges on the Malanthrope (or Venomthrope) giving much of your army a 2+ cover save, which is easier done than most people think. The part where the strategy diverges from what most people do is in the fact that it waits. Your army sits in the shrouded bubble (which I have affectionately termed "shroudstar") and makes the opponent come to you. You wait in your fortress of solitude until turn 3 or 4 being just ridiculously durable and doing what you can at range. If they come to you, you can pounce when the time is right, having taken very few casualties since you didn't have to march across the board - your opponent did it for you! How considerate of them.
The question of course then becomes - why on earth would they come to me? What can I do to get them to come to me? The first question is more common than most people think, since even if they get within 24 inches of you, which most armies will have to do, then you can strike with everything whenever you want. If they're outside of 24", your firepower is somewhat reduced, but we do still have Biovores, the Barbed Hierodule if your group allows it, and the Exocrine/Hive Guard have some reach (although they won't likely be dueling with 36" range units).
Even if they won't ever want to come to you, do they have 2+ cover? Probably not. In short, you can likely win a war of attrition, whittling down what you need to while taking almost no damage in return. In short, I definitely want to try this.
We all use his "trapdoor" tactic to a degree. I mean, who doesn't want 2+ cover for their army. However, his strategy is only 1 tool in a toolbox of strategies. I have 2 main philosophies with regards to Tyranid (and other army) tactics:
1. Positional Dominance. The philosophy is that if you can control the Movement phase, then you've got the advantage in most cases in objectives-based scenarios. This philosophy usually requires 2 things - mobility and a more aggressive playstyle.
2. The Way of the Water Warrior. This philosophy is actually back from my Daemonhunter days (the old, old Grey Knights). The philosophy here involves having flexible strategies and being a reactive army. Basically, you see what your opponent brings, compare his strengths and weaknesses to yours, and then adjust your playstyle accordingly. If he's bringing a hyper-aggressive army (a "Fire" army), then the "trapdoor" style can work really well against these types of armies. If your opponent is bringing more of a static, gunline army (an "Earth" army), then you will have to be the aggressor. This is where Positional Dominance really pays off. Other armies include "Air" armies, or an army that is highly maneuverable and mobile, and other "Water" reactive armies. The key to playing against them is to be flexible in your strategies and adjusting to a playstyle counter to theirs if you can.
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Wilson wrote: How do we do about tackling tank companies?
I.e the IG tank formation?
I'm taking on my bud later who's bringing his tournament list;
8 russ's of different variety including pask.
1 hydra
1 knight errant.
So... Yeah haha.
How does one tackle this?
Tank builds will have problems against flyrant/FMC-spam Tyranids as well as TMC's with 2+ cover. A more balanced, hybrid infantry/tank AM army would do better. Honestly, I think your opponent is going to have a harder time against your army than you will against his.
I do think BigPigs strategy of limited board control is a better approach to most games than using JY2's strategy of working the corners and edges of the board while surrendering the middle to your opponent at the start of the game. I would generally offer a much more aggressive strategy of either midfield board control If I'm using a Barbed Heirodule, or Threat containment if I'm running a Flying Circus. My strategies difference to BigPig and JY2 mainly reflect that I play in a meta that embraced Maelstrom missions much more than their metas which are sticking with Eternal war primarily with limited Maelstrom influence. Also, I think all three of us end up going the way of JY2 if things start going very badly. I call it starfishing when you realize that you are unable to hold your tactical deployment, and have to spread out in a effort to avoid being overrun.
Hey, that's only 1 of my strategies.
It's all about being aggressive but also being flexible depending on the matchup, like when you are going up against an army that is even more aggressive than yours (that's when you abandon your "nest").
Woohoo, you are posting in your blog again, I enjoy reading your batreps as it comes across you guys have a lot of fun.
Also a comment on this thread overall. I find it really useful to have people debating and discussing units pros and cons from different perspectives. I don't get to play a lot at all at the moment, so can't get my experience levels up, so reading different points of view and counter points is great for me as it keeps me constantly re-evaluating how to play with this awesome army.
Oh and I have never played competitive or in a tournament etc, so learning from the tournament goers and the generic strategy types they use is gold.
So to Jy2, Tag8833, Shuppet, Iechine, Wilson, Pinecone, luke and the many many many other contributors. Thank you and may this thread continue to be the living breathing changing beast it is today.
I do think BigPigs strategy of limited board control is a better approach to most games than using JY2's strategy of working the corners and edges of the board while surrendering the middle to your opponent at the start of the game. I would generally offer a much more aggressive strategy of either midfield board control If I'm using a Barbed Heirodule, or Threat containment if I'm running a Flying Circus. My strategies difference to BigPig and JY2 mainly reflect that I play in a meta that embraced Maelstrom missions much more than their metas which are sticking with Eternal war primarily with limited Maelstrom influence. Also, I think all three of us end up going the way of JY2 if things start going very badly. I call it starfishing when you realize that you are unable to hold your tactical deployment, and have to spread out in a effort to avoid being overrun.
Hey, that's only 1 of my strategies.
It's all about being aggressive but also being flexible depending on the matchup, like when you are going up against an army that is even more aggressive than yours (that's when you abandon your "nest").
Of Course. We all use a variety of strategies situationally. I called it yours because you wrote a tactica for it a few pages back.
Woohoo, you are posting in your blog again, I enjoy reading your batreps as it comes across you guys have a lot of fun.
Also a comment on this thread overall. I find it really useful to have people debating and discussing units pros and cons from different perspectives. I don't get to play a lot at all at the moment, so can't get my experience levels up, so reading different points of view and counter points is great for me as it keeps me constantly re-evaluating how to play with this awesome army.
Oh and I have never played competitive or in a tournament etc, so learning from the tournament goers and the generic strategy types they use is gold.
So to Jy2, Tag8833, Shuppet, Iechine, Wilson, Pinecone, luke and the many many many other contributors. Thank you and may this thread continue to be the living breathing changing beast it is today.
You are most welcome my man, it's cool to be back posting again.
and Just to jump on the back of your comment Mad, us nid brothers know the true spirit of the game. Something about playing nids just brings the best out of gamers. True fact.
tag8833 wrote: I've got a general question. I see 1 Malanthrope showing up in every list. I almost always lose a single Malanthrope in every game these days. Sometimes that and some gargoyles are all I lose in a game. Some of that has to do with my local meta being well trained and coached by me to beat tyranids. If I was running a ground pound army like the one above, I would want a 2nd Malanthrope so that I have flexibility in deployment and my army doesn't start falling apart when I lose 1 model.
I'm curious that not only do most tyranid players seem to run only one Malanthrope, but also they never seem to lose them. Do you think that as the general player base adapts, we will start seeing more people sniping out Malanthropes before firing fruitlessly into 2+ cover?
A single Malan in a bastion is one thing, but if you are making the long walk, and/or hoping for Master of Ambush, a 2nd Malanthrope would seem to be called for.
First of all, it is tough dealing with Tyranid biggies with 2+ cover. It takes a huge amount of firepower, which most casual lists won't be able to do. It is only against the high-firepower lists where you need to be concerned about redundancy for your Shroud-givers.
Secondly, you only need him there to mainly protect your army for 1 or 2 turns. If he's done that, then he's done his job and it then doesn't matter if he bites it or not.
Experienced players can make it work with a single malan/venomthrope, but only with the use of LOS-blockers or if they bring protection in the form of a bastion/bunker. Because if you are playing against the likes of Tau or Eldar without decent BLOS terrain, then it doesn't matter if you bring 1 or 2 malanthropes - they will both still die on Turn 1.
Mainly, you can thank your flyrants if your malanthrope survives. After Turn 1, your opponent should be too busy dealing with those flyrants to care about the malan/venom. Then after Turn 2, they'll be dealing with almost your entire army (assuming you are bringing shooty units) to have to worry about your malan/venom.
I don't build lists for best case matchups. When I'm looking at the number of shrouding units I need, I'm looking at armies with some amount of Ignore cover or extreme firepower.
LOS blocking is a thing but the Malanthrope is a Tall model, and so many LOS blockers can't hide it. As I said, if you Take a Malan and a bastion you are fine, but I wouldn't expect to see enough LOS blockers to help you out in most games. Especially against the sort of things that are most likely to kill a Malanthrope (Wave Serpents, Riptides, Skyrays, Legion of the Damned), plus because most LOS blocking terrain is also impassible, it means you don't get your 2+ when something does see you.
The other thing that one Malan does for you is preclude the use of Master of Ambush warlord trait, or any other deployment versatility.
Though I would consider your lists to be less representative of this trend because you normal have a bastion to protect you Malan which fixes most of my concerns.
There is no right or wrong amount here. It really all depends on what types of armies you play against in your meta and also the style of your army. If you're playing a mainly ground army that pushes up the middle with screening units and your heavy hitters, then you definitely want to consider 2. If you play more of a null deployment army (like I do) where your troops come in from reserves (rippers), your units come in from reserves (mawlocs, deepstriking gargoyles) and the only thing you have on the table are mainly flyers who will swoop on T1, then 1 is really all you need to survive enemy fire. If you play in a meta where there are few Tau, Eldar and other armies who can ignore cover, then you can even probably get away with just 1 venomthrope (though I would always recommend the malanthrope as long as FW is allowed). And if you play in a meta where there are a lot of Tau, Eldar, super-shooty armies and/or armies that have ways to ignore cover, then bring a bastion. Personally, 1 is all I'll ever need for my armies, but that is because I build my army assuming that my meta is highly competitive with lots of cover-ignoring firepower and take the bastion in my tournament TAC lists. See, I don't have any of those Malanthrope-survivability concerns either.
Woohoo, you are posting in your blog again, I enjoy reading your batreps as it comes across you guys have a lot of fun.
Also a comment on this thread overall. I find it really useful to have people debating and discussing units pros and cons from different perspectives. I don't get to play a lot at all at the moment, so can't get my experience levels up, so reading different points of view and counter points is great for me as it keeps me constantly re-evaluating how to play with this awesome army.
Oh and I have never played competitive or in a tournament etc, so learning from the tournament goers and the generic strategy types they use is gold.
So to Jy2, Tag8833, Shuppet, Iechine, Wilson, Pinecone, luke and the many many many other contributors. Thank you and may this thread continue to be the living breathing changing beast it is today.
I'm glad this thread has lasted til today and people are still contributing to it as well as referring to it for help and advice. The Tyranid community is great!
I have been looking at other ways to achieve the alpha strike damage reduction for my army core. And one thing I have by accident found quite effective is a unit of Genestealers infiltrate on to the opponents board edge.
Couple of points, I don't have a Venom, Male, or fortification in this army so I had to find a way to pull fire someplace besides my front line. The first time I did it was running a Manufactorum Brood since I do have around 30 stealers. The board was setup with alot of ruins in the enemy deployment zone. Using the special rules I stuck 2 broods inside the ruins about 5" away from his HQ and parking lot. Between GtG and the blocked LOS, the little buggers took 3 turns of fire from about a 1/3 of the army, which let the rest of the foot list make the charge across the board and hit his Aegis line.
Since then I have been playing this approach against various armies with interesting results. Since we play mostly maelstrom missions in my area, the broods have even countered a White Scars army by forcing scouted units to move back to opponents Deployment zone on there turn 1. Now sometimes they don't make it past first time, some times they last long enough to make the broods points back, but they have always effected the opponents first turn movement plans in the same way as drop pods.
I am thinking about using MoA to do the same stunt with something a bit more painful like a dakkfex, but the risk of failing I.B. seems to great, and the unit cost is potentially to high, perhaps a Trevigon if you win first turn. I know this not an ideal approach, but is looking like a solid idea for those of us with out or not wanting to run certain units. A 70pt sacrifce brood that can earn it's points back if the opponent does not deal with seems like a good substitute for Venom in a box if you don't have one. Besides it is nice to have a use for the Icon little buggers.
I told him if he's going to outlaw CtA he should outlaw BB as well 
Against a gunline, I usually pack twin Mawlocs., so I'm good. 
!!! Both bargelords go down and neither gets back up, even with ResOrbs! OMFG!!!
He should have been like, 0-1,000,000,000!
