Hi! I've seen quite few nice army lists while skimming through here, but I have a few questions for you guys.
1. What units are the most competitive? What combination of units make up the most competitive list? I'm not gonna lie, I like to win and knowing this can help me make a stronger list, while being able to make it fun as well.
2. It seems that both rippers and dimas are probably the most controversial units available to the tyranids but do you think there is any way to make them worth taking? Can you build a list around them to make them strong? Their models are just so darn cool! I know that the Dima discussion went on a few pages back but it seems like some new people have joined the conversation so I'll ask it again.
As always, thanks for your time.

The most competitive list possible imo:


Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2x TL-Devs, eGrubs
Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2x TL-Devs, eGrubs

Venomthrope
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope

10x Termagant
10x Termagant

2x Carnifex, TL-Devs
2x Carnifex, TL-Devs
Mawloc, Adrenal Glands

Living Artillery Formation:
Exocrine
3x Biovores
3x Tyranid Warrior, Venom Cannon



This comes to 1850 points. Where I have a Mawloc people often have something different like a Crone or a Garg squad, I personally think the Mawloc is by far the best option but it's to taste. Rolling for MoA on Warlord Traits is important as well.

I like Shuppet's list, I'd probably swap the Venom/Zoans for Malanthrope or two though

Boburrito wrote:
Hi! I've seen quite few nice army lists while skimming through here, but I have a few questions for you guys.
1. What units are the most competitive? What combination of units make up the most competitive list? I'm not gonna lie, I like to win and knowing this can help me make a stronger list, while being able to make it fun as well.
2. It seems that both rippers and dimas are probably the most controversial units available to the tyranids but do you think there is any way to make them worth taking? Can you build a list around them to make them strong? Their models are just so darn cool! I know that the Dima discussion went on a few pages back but it seems like some new people have joined the conversation so I'll ask it again.
As always, thanks for your time.

The usefulness of the Dima isn't related as much to the list around it as it is to the list on the other side of the table. Against drop pod marines or Meganobz, a Dima will wreck face. Thunderwolf calvary go down to a Dima, though they can kill him right back. The problem is he is next to worthless against gunlines, and not good against MSU. Unless you are going against one of his favorable matchups he contributes nothing until turn 3. 200 points is quite a bit to spend on something that takes 1/2 of the game off.

One trick depending on your opponent is to assault the Dima into a unit then take a large squad (gargoyles or gants) and multi-assault them into several units including the one the Dima just assaulted. That way he can pile-in from one combat to the next, also if he kills a bunch of models, sometimes he can sweep all of the units that the large squad engaged.

If you are running a Dima, it is probably worth it to consider running a Malanthrope and a squad of 20 Hormagants or Gargoyles with him to keep him alive and support him. Always throw the Malanthrope into combat alongside the Dima. Preferred enemy is quite a buff.

Boburrito wrote:
Hi! I've seen quite few nice army lists while skimming through here, but I have a few questions for you guys.
1. What units are the most competitive? What combination of units make up the most competitive list? I'm not gonna lie, I like to win and knowing this can help me make a stronger list, while being able to make it fun as well.
2. It seems that both rippers and dimas are probably the most controversial units available to the tyranids but do you think there is any way to make them worth taking? Can you build a list around them to make them strong? Their models are just so darn cool! I know that the Dima discussion went on a few pages back but it seems like some new people have joined the conversation so I'll ask it again.
As always, thanks for your time.

***************WALL OF TEXT ALERT****************

1. Flying Hive Tyrant. End of conversation. The issue is that this is such a strong unit that you can literally bring 3-4 (using double Combined Arms detachment or self-ally if your local TO decides to go that route) and then fill the rest of your army with almost whatever else you want (within reason, I mean we're not talking Pyrovores here). They are great at doing everything if you give them 2 Brainleech Devourers and a Electroshock Grubs thorax biomorph. You would gladly pay 960 points for 4 of those bad boys, unless you want the game to be more fun for your opponent.

I'll throw a quick 2 cents on the rest of the codex units here, as well as the forge world Dima and Malanthrope (the only two that are somewhat worthwhile, though there is some stone-crusher fex love floating around. The crushers just don't have math on their side)

Swarmlord - good at buffing other units and has a nice area denial zone (you won't get closer than ~18" of him, and that's not insignificant). However, slow, easy to kill so needs expensive body guards to allow him to live, and he's expensive already. Generally not points-efficient
Tyranid Prime - Essentially just a synapse source that is difficult to kill; however we are not lacking for that thanks to the Malanthrope. Way too expensive for just synapse, and his upgrades cost a lot if you want him to do anything else
Old One Eye - Doesn't have synapse, is expensive and has no gun....basically the definition of a distraction carnifex, only this time he's much more expensive
Tervigon - will usually be taken in the troops section if at all - just beware that some tournaments are ruling that the spawned Gants are not Objective: Secured, even though by RAW they certainly are. If this is true for you, mostly useless. He also did get a points increase from the previous codex, as well as the Gants losing any buffs that Mama Jamma has purchased as upgrades, so less attractive. But still not terrible.
Deathleaper - Some people have great success with him, some do not. Was better when Leadership tests meant more for Psykers, but can still be useful in the right list. Does not provide synapse but most lists that involve him won't need as much (and you can always go double Combined Arms Detachment and still take 3 Flyrants to make yourself feel better). Still somewhat expensive.

Tyranid Warriors - not a bad way to fill out some pretty durable troops. If they sit in cover and fire away while babysitting a squad of Biovores or Hive Guard, while securing an objective, it's not a bad idea at all. If there isn't ignores cover out there, they are tougher than people give them credit for
Genestealers - I want to love them and make them work. I will find a way to do it before this edition is over, I promise. They are, however, fragile and lack a reliable method of delivery without getting lit up. Also, they are expensive for how fragile they are
Termagants - nice now that you can give them mixed weapons in a squad, so the ones with the good guns can be protected by cheap meat shields. If nothing else, 80 points to make a battleforged list is not the worst. Gives you a lot of freedom to do other things. Keep them in reserve and it can work out nicely, but not as nicely as with....
Rippers! - 45 points gets you a deep-striking squad of three. If that wasn't good enough, they have stealth, are fearless, and their instinctive behavior means that they can essentially function outside of synapse quite well. Plop them down on whatever objective you want with their deep strike, and they will not run away. Really no contest with normal Termagants, who need a synapse babysitter to not run away, and can't deep strike for tactical flexibility.
Hormagants - I actually like these dudes, and I know some people have been running them with decent success. They are slightly more expensive, but have fleet and a bucket of attacks, plus the ability to be more than just little gribblies if you give them poison.


Hive Guard - Haywire at range? Or just str 8 ignores cover (sort of) and doesn't need LOS? Sign me up! I don't run these guys but that's just a play-style preference. I know a lot of people love them. The only downside is the relatively low range
Zoanthropes - Good warp charge batteries and synapse if you want to pull psychic shenanigans (and you do - it's much better than most people would lead you to believe). Somewhat fragile if only one per squad, and somewhat expensive with two or more due to the brotherhood of psykers rule
Venomthropes - People swear by these, and rightfully so. The shrouded bubble they provide is incredible. For added tom-foolery, you can put it in a bastion (greatly increasing it's durability and making the shrouded bubble extend from the walls of the bastion - dope!). Still decently attractive first blood bait if left exposed, especially against Ignores Cover weaponry
Malanthropes - Does anyone want to take all the good things about venomthropes, zoanthropes, put them together, and add more good things, for less than the cost of the two models combined? Yes, yes they do. The only real question is how many you need. I run one but two is not a bad idea either. You do lose being a psyker, but it's not the end of the world at all. One of the best units Tyranids have ever seen (forge world)
Lictors - sort of like Genestealers - they are an iconic unit that we ALL really want to work (though I have less faith in these guys than Genestealers) but are fragile, expensive and don't generally do what you would like them to.
Haruspex - doesn't really get the job done when it gets to close combat (which, sadly, is it's only job). I haven't heard much at all about these guys working out, but what a beautiful model
Pyrovores - just don't. You might think you want to, but the best use of a pyrovore model is a base for a conversion to a biovore

Shrikes - pretty expensive for their durability, but some people like them. I have very little experience with these guys so I will leave it at that
Raveners - With the advent of the malanthrope, I think we'll be finding more of these in people's lists. Give them a nice screen of gargoyles and they're rocking 3+ cover all the way into a turn 2 assault. Definitely worth consideration
Sky-slasher swarm - maybe if they were troops....
Gargoyes - what the flying hive tyrant is to the HQ section, these dudes are to the fast attack section. Great utility if you want them to have poison, or just a cheap and fast screening unit otherwise.
Harpy - If you're running the Skyblight Formation (which is very good) then sure, you'll take them (because you have to). Otherwise, their role is typically covered better by other units
Hive Crone - Great anti-air. I mean, you will just destroy anything else in the sky. And it's always nice to have some haywire missiles against ground targets, even if they aren't twin-linked against them. Flamer is also very good. Wish vector striking ground units was better, but it's still a pretty good unit.
Spore Mine Cluster - don't bother. Buy more biovores
Dimachaeron - certainly the most controversial unit Tyranids have seen in quite some time. Slow (thankfully has fleet) but otherwise it might as well be a gunless Carnifex with no default alternative deployment method (pray for Master of Ambush on the Strategic Warlord Traits Table, and 1/3 of the time your prayers will be answered if your army is battle-forged). The big upside is that when it gets to combat, it WRECKS FACE. If it gets there. BUT IF IT DOES, SWEET BABY JESUS. But it will often get gunned down before it gets there for that reason. Still, with T6 and hopefully some decent cover (like a malanthope + gargoyle screen giving it a 3+) it isn't that easy to take down, and it will take bullets away from your hive tyrants, which is very good. I'm a fan, but understand those who aren't

Carnifexes - Give them 12 STR6 twin-linked shots each on a fairly durable gun platform that can also wreck tanks and infantry with similar ease (though it's not as good against infantry). People will definitely pay 150 points for that, again and again. I mean, 3-4 of these guys and 3-4 hive tyrants with the same gun loadout means that you are forcing just shy of 70 armour saves on anything T4 or less, PER TURN. On average. Good luck with that. With a malanthrope they are also rather durable (sensing a theme, I hope)
Biovores - excellent cheap long range anti-infantry. In an age that is dominated by the exact opposite, their usefulness is somewhat lessened; however the mines can now block position, potentially waste an entire squad's turn, and frankly you will almost always have SOMETHING for them to shoot at. Almost always worth taking a squad in a Take-All-Comers list. The Living Artillery Formation just makes them even better.
Trygon - well, yeah. He is pretty sad because he doesn't bring much to the table and costs quite a bit. Not typically used at all
Trygon Prime - oh wait, he wasn't expensive enough? Now he is
Mawloc - quite controversial. The definition of "hit-or-miss" . When he hits, WOW! When he doesn't, well, that sucks. Sometimes you can get very lucky and have him hit, not quite clear everything, and then go right back into reserves to come back the next turn. The definition of living the dream, but it doesn't happen consistently
Exocrine - great anti-2+ armour. Even can take light mech/MC out nicely. Not great range, but what does have good range, honestly? The only real issue is that most 2+ armour isn't stupid enough to get near you or wander around outside of a land raider, so you have to work for it a little. But we don't play Nids because it's easy. Still a unit that many people like, especially in the Living Artillery Formation
Tyrannofex - nice in low point games due to its armor save (which sadly, we can't get anywhere else, no matter how much we might like to) and due to the decent amount of firepower that it can put out. Overall, it's not my style and I think it's somewhat overcosted, but people definitely do use this unit

So that was a little more than 2 cents but it's nice to have it all in one place (even if it's just an opinion that people will disagree with in the posts below). Generally speaking, the MO of tyranids is to have army-wide synergy and force-multipliers. Have the malanthrope cover up for weaknesses in other units - have the hive tyrant cast onslaught or catalyst so that you can get more out of the units around it. You want your whole army to be united in purpose. Just ask yourself - what is unit A going to do for me? Is there another unit that does that better/more cheaply? Do I already have another unit that does that? If so, do I want more saturation for that or do I have enough? If you have answers for everything that you're going to come across, you will be in every game. Just make sure that you ask the right questions, and we're always here to help

Staying up all night to be ready for night shift this week, so I had 5 hours to start and finish this guy!

 Chaplain Sam wrote:
I like Shuppet's list, I'd probably swap the Venom/Zoans for Malanthrope or two though

Yeah that's the other thing I meant to mention - a lot of people will prefer 1-2 Malanthropes in the Elites. I personally prefer the effeciency of 1 Venomthrope, doesn't matter even if it is the first model removed from the table, it will always be worth its points just in attracting a full units round of fire. The Zoanthropes are good for rolls on Catalyst and Onslaught for games that I don't get Master of Ambush, as well as the occasional utility with Paroxysm or the Horror (outflanking Psychic Scream Zoanthropes vs Tau can be hilarious too although a rare situation). I can see why people prefer the Malanthrope, for me I wouldn't trade my Venom + Zope for it any day in this list. However in other styles of play I think Malanthrope is often much better.



On the subject of Malanthropes,

lechine ! that looks amazing !!

I agree with SHUPPET, that Thrope looks awesome! I especially love that base

Ok, cool! Thanks guys, and that really is a nice looking Malanthrope, well done on that base!
So, correct me if I'm wrong but;
-Flyrants are always great
-LAN or Skyblight are good formations to take
-Biovores are great units but generally not in the current meta
-DakkaFexes are good
-Dima's are situational
-Mawlocs are just plain fun, but very dependent on the dice
So with that in mind I'll go see if I can make a few lists!
How do you guys feel about a 9 FMC list? I just did the math in my head so it might be wrong but...
CAD
2x -Flyrants (1 w/ Egrubs)
3x -Hive Crones
10x -termagants
10x -termagants
Skyblight formation
1x -Flyrant (1 stranglethorn cannon, one tld w/ blw)
2x -Harpies
1x -Hive crone
10x -Gargoyles
10x -Gargoyles
10x -Gargoyles
That comes out to 1850 I think. There's one flyrant per two other FMC's which is a good balance I think. I have 5 OS units which are pretty small but that isn't the focus of the army. It's the 9 FMC's . The Flyrant with the stranglethorn will pair up with the harpies and go infantry hunting while the one with egrubs goes specifically vehicle hunting with 2 of the hive crones and the last one can go do whatever he wants with the other 2. It kind of leaves the gargoyles and termagants to fend for their own without synapse (or atleast the termagants) but again, they aren't focus of the army, they're just there for battle forged. If I went Unbound I could take another flyrant and add on 2 e-grub biomorphs, but I'd rather not go unbound (so that I don't have to play against other unbound lists)
As always, thanks for your time.

Boburrito wrote:
Ok, cool! Thanks guys, and that really is a nice looking Malanthrope, well done on that base!
So, correct me if I'm wrong but;
-Flyrants are always great
-LAN or Skyblight are good formations to take
-Biovores are great units but generally not in the current meta
-DakkaFexes are good
-Dima's are situational
-Mawlocs are just plain fun, but very dependent on the dice
So with that in mind I'll go see if I can make a few lists!
How do you guys feel about a 9 FMC list? I just did the math in my head so it might be wrong but...
CAD
2x -Flyrants (1 w/ Egrubs)
3x -Hive Crones
10x -termagants
10x -termagants
Skyblight formation
1x -Flyrant (1 stranglethorn cannon, one tld w/ blw)
2x -Harpies
1x -Hive crone
10x -Gargoyles
10x -Gargoyles
10x -Gargoyles
That comes out to 1850 I think. There's one flyrant per two other FMC's which is a good balance I think. I have 5 OS units which are pretty small but that isn't the focus of the army. It's the 9 FMC's . The Flyrant with the stranglethorn will pair up with the harpies and go infantry hunting while the one with egrubs goes specifically vehicle hunting with 2 of the hive crones and the last one can go do whatever he wants with the other 2. It kind of leaves the gargoyles and termagants to fend for their own without synapse (or atleast the termagants) but again, they aren't focus of the army, they're just there for battle forged. If I went Unbound I could take another flyrant and add on 2 e-grub biomorphs, but I'd rather not go unbound (so that I don't have to play against other unbound lists)
As always, thanks for your time.

I think removing those E-Grub on the Flyrants and changing Termagants into Deepstriking Rippers would serve you better, a Termagants need babysitting whereas Rippers work well outside of Synapse while holding objectives. You do after all have 16 BS3 Haywire for the AV13/14 and S8 Vector Strike can glance AV14. If need be, you can always land and Smash vehicles anyway.

Also Twin-Linked Devourers in place of the Stranglethorn Cannon on the Flyrant, as you can still Snapshoot it if you ever need to Jink, but otherwise look like a solid Skyblight list :thumbs:

I've killed Wraithknights with my Dimachaeron. A little clever board control, get him in there, and he'll eat most any MC with ease. Especially when all of his To-Wound rolls cause Instant Death.

Well, time to come out of the woodworks again. I've been lurking around, here and there, and most of my friends assume I quit the game, since I haven't had a game at the shop in ages. I've yet to finish that Harridan, the thrice accursed beast (And lets not get started on the rest of my swarm). Anyhow, onto what I came here for. What would you guys say is a good solution for the following;

As most of the other old timers know, I have that preference for hordes, with an assault theme. As it stands, I have finally met my match in my best friend that I got into the game on Dark Angels, but since has gone and brought IG into the fold. With Grenade Launchers. And far too many flamers. So god dang many templates that I started running the numbers. On average, a decent blob (a full 30) of my termagants would wind up with roughly 75% casualties before getting stuck into assault. Against single squads. I really need to stop teaching people to stop thinking my 'Nids are so terrifying.

Anyhow, with every tactic comes its problems. I run light on Synapse, and heavy on the Swarms. My TMCs are sporadic, and almost always single assault units with the obligatory screens from my scuttling swarms, designed to follow the initial waves and go for the quick kills to continue a general heavy press into my opponents lines. Except now, much of my screens are disappearing long before the TMCs can get stuck into assault and finish them up on the opponents turn, giving them the option to soften them up first. My sole psychic phase strategy has been to simply outpower my opponent and fish for catalysts for early pushes and assaults.

What percentage of my army should I devote to screens, synapse, and TMCs, respectively? I used to run a roughly...60/20/20 split on those lines.

 Iechine wrote:
Staying up all night to be ready for night shift this week, so I had 5 hours to start and finish this guy!

Spoiler:

Looks fantastic Lechine!

Boburrito wrote:

CAD
2x -Flyrants (1 w/ Egrubs)
3x -Hive Crones
10x -termagants
10x -termagants
Skyblight formation
1x -Flyrant (1 stranglethorn cannon, one tld w/ blw)
2x -Harpies
1x -Hive crone
10x -Gargoyles
10x -Gargoyles
10x -Gargoyles
I have 5 OS units which are pretty small but that isn't the focus of the army.

This list is going to really struggle in Maelstrom missions. You have no synapse outside of the Flyrants so your Gargoyles and Termagants are likely to fail synapse and run away. You will generally have to table your opponent to win, or start landing you FMC's which defeats the point. Instead consider dropping 2 Crones for a Malanthrope (midfield synapse, buffer), and a Zoey (backfield synapse, buffer), and adding more gargoyles to use the remaining points.

One underrated feature of the Zoey is helping you cast Warp Lance / Blast from a flyrant. It doesn't count as firing a weapon so it is one extra shot for a 50 point unit that can also support and buff in its own right.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

luke1705 wrote:

Boburrito wrote:
Hi! I've seen quite few nice army lists while skimming through here, but I have a few questions for you guys.
1. What units are the most competitive? What combination of units make up the most competitive list? I'm not gonna lie, I like to win and knowing this can help me make a stronger list, while being able to make it fun as well.
2. It seems that both rippers and dimas are probably the most controversial units available to the tyranids but do you think there is any way to make them worth taking? Can you build a list around them to make them strong? Their models are just so darn cool! I know that the Dima discussion went on a few pages back but it seems like some new people have joined the conversation so I'll ask it again.
As always, thanks for your time.

Rippers! - 45 points gets you a deep-striking squad of three. If that wasn't good enough, they have stealth, are fearless, and their instinctive behavior means that they can essentially function outside of synapse quite well. Plop them down on whatever objective you want with their deep strike, and they will not run away. Really no contest with normal Termagants, who need a synapse babysitter to not run away, and can't deep strike for tactical flexibility.

Termagants can participate in the game beyond deep striking and scoring objectives. Termagants are survivable than Rippers. The advantage isn't as clear as you indicate. I would give termagants the advantage 80/20, but most people (especially those still playing Eternal War missions) go the other way.

luke1705 wrote:
Hive Guard - Haywire at range? Or just str 8 ignores cover (sort of) and doesn't need LOS? Sign me up! I don't run these guys but that's just a play-style preference. I know a lot of people love them. The only downside is the relatively low range

The biggest downside is Assault 2, BS 3, AP 4. So each Hive guard hits once on average and does 2/3 of a hull point to a rhino, or 1/2 of a hull point to a Wave Serpent with 0% chance of exploding it. How eager are you to spend 165 points on a unit that can kill at most 120 points of Rhinos in a game?

luke1705 wrote:
Shrikes - pretty expensive for their durability, but some people like them. I have very little experience with these guys so I will leave it at that

Shrikes do everything warriors do better. So if you like Warriors, you should love Shrikes.

luke1705 wrote:
Raveners - With the advent of the malanthrope, I think we'll be finding more of these in people's lists. Give them a nice screen of gargoyles and they're rocking 3+ cover all the way into a turn 2 assault. Definitely worth consideration

Shrikes are like higher leadership, more versatile Raveners with 1 less initiative and Synapse. Any time you are taking Raveners, add an equal or greater sized unit of Shrikes. If you decided to replace every ravener with a Shrike you wouldn't be doing anything wrong.

luke1705 wrote:
Gargoyes - what the flying hive tyrant is to the HQ section, these dudes are to the fast attack section. Great utility if you want them to have poison, or just a cheap and fast screening unit otherwise.

Also the best tarpit in the game. They can get there. They can get there in numbers, and they can blind.

Hey tag how useful do you find blind? I've never even bothered experimenting with it, do you blind with every attack? I just sink a few gargs into something and let it play it outself out generally, might have to start taking blind rolls

SHUPPET, I've got 120 points left on my current list and I'm looking into spending them on Gargoyles, which is the best option out of these four:

1) Two Broods of 10x models
2) One Brood of 20x models
3) One Brood of 15x Models with AG or TS
4) One Brood of 15 Models and ditch E-Grubs on Flyrants for a Zoanthrope

?

To give you the best answer to that question I'd need to see your whole list! However I can definitely tell you that ditching e-Grubs for 1.5 Gargoyles is a bad idea. Depending on your synapse, taking 13 Gargoyles (unlucky!) for a Zoanthrope or other form of Synapse might be a good idea. However, as far as all the top 3 go, the best answer is definitely #1. There is absolutely no benefit to running them as one squad, and the upgrades are overpriced. But it's fine to run them as a 20 man squad if you want to open up another fast attack squad, the difference is minimal.

 SHUPPET wrote:
To give you the best answer to that question I'd need to see your whole list! However I can definitely tell you that ditching e-Grubs for 1.5 Gargoyles is a bad idea. Depending on your synapse, taking 13 Gargoyles (unlucky!) for a Zoanthrope or other form of Synapse might be a good idea. However, as far as all the top 3 go, the best answer is definitely #1. There is absolutely no benefit to running them as one squad, and the upgrades are overpriced. But it's fine to run them as a 20 man squad if you want to open up another fast attack squad, the difference is minimal.

Ahh fair, well my list is in the spoiler. All my thoughts are in the spoiler, don't want to clog a post.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Hey tag how useful do you find blind? I've never even bothered experimenting with it, do you blind with every attack? I just sink a few gargs into something and let it play it outself out generally, might have to start taking blind rolls

You have to announce you are using blind. If you use blind on the charge, you give up your charge bonus, but otherwise it is the same attack (S3 ap:-). If you hit while using blind (no need to wound), then the opponent has to take an initiative test. If they fail then they are WS1 aka hitting on 5's. It is wonderful against a Riptide who is init 2. Also good against things that have init 1 because of unwieldy. For instance Thunder Hammer Space wolves.

It doesn't work so hot against higher init models like Wraith Knights, but I'm pretty sure it works on walkers, though I've never pulled it off.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Well, time to come out of the woodworks again. I've been lurking around, here and there, and most of my friends assume I quit the game, since I haven't had a game at the shop in ages. I've yet to finish that Harridan, the thrice accursed beast (And lets not get started on the rest of my swarm). Anyhow, onto what I came here for. What would you guys say is a good solution for the following;

As most of the other old timers know, I have that preference for hordes, with an assault theme. As it stands, I have finally met my match in my best friend that I got into the game on Dark Angels, but since has gone and brought IG into the fold. With Grenade Launchers. And far too many flamers. So god dang many templates that I started running the numbers. On average, a decent blob (a full 30) of my termagants would wind up with roughly 75% casualties before getting stuck into assault. Against single squads. I really need to stop teaching people to stop thinking my 'Nids are so terrifying.

Anyhow, with every tactic comes its problems. I run light on Synapse, and heavy on the Swarms. My TMCs are sporadic, and almost always single assault units with the obligatory screens from my scuttling swarms, designed to follow the initial waves and go for the quick kills to continue a general heavy press into my opponents lines. Except now, much of my screens are disappearing long before the TMCs can get stuck into assault and finish them up on the opponents turn, giving them the option to soften them up first. My sole psychic phase strategy has been to simply outpower my opponent and fish for catalysts for early pushes and assaults.

What percentage of my army should I devote to screens, synapse, and TMCs, respectively? I used to run a roughly...60/20/20 split on those lines.

I don't know about percentages, but against that opponent I would definitely consider Biovores and a T-Fex with Acid Spray as one of your heavy hitters. That will help quite a bit with big Guard blobs. The T-Fex is tanky enough that you can run it out in front of a bunch of Gants to give them cover, too. If they charge it for some reason, Wall of Death them.

Frozocrone wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
To give you the best answer to that question I'd need to see your whole list! However I can definitely tell you that ditching e-Grubs for 1.5 Gargoyles is a bad idea. Depending on your synapse, taking 13 Gargoyles (unlucky!) for a Zoanthrope or other form of Synapse might be a good idea. However, as far as all the top 3 go, the best answer is definitely #1. There is absolutely no benefit to running them as one squad, and the upgrades are overpriced. But it's fine to run them as a 20 man squad if you want to open up another fast attack squad, the difference is minimal.

Ahh fair, well my list is in the spoiler. All my thoughts are in the spoiler, don't want to clog a post.

Spoiler:

Hive Tyrant
-Wings
-Twin-Linked Devourers with Brain Leechworms
-Twin-Linked Devourers with Brain Leechworms
-Electroshock Grubs
=240

Hive Tyrant
-Wings
-Twin-Linked Devourers with Brain Leechworms
-Twin-Linked Devourers with Brain Leechworms
-Electroshock Grubs
=240

Troops
Termagants x15
=60

Termagants x15
=60

Termagants x15
=60

Elites
Malanthrope
=85

Malanthrope
=85

Heavy Support
Carnifexes x2
-Twin Linked Devourers x2
-Twin Linked Devourers x2
=300

Carnifexes x2
-Twin Linked Devourers x2
-Twin Linked Devourers x2
=300

Carnifexes x2
-Twin-Linked Devourers x2
-Twin-Linked Devourers x2
=300

Which comes to 1730.

I'm looking at Gargoyles as they can tarpit dangerous units and are fast to boot.

I've got 3 units of Termagants bubble-wrapping the Carnifexes that are dishing out 24 S6 shots so it seems pretty good on paper

I would have liked to take either an Exocrine or Bastion/Aegis Defence Line, but the new local tournament is trying out a new rule set which is, only one CAD, no Allies, no Formations. But they also banned fortifications :s so I sort of went 'spam S6' Is an Exocrine a good stand alone unit?

Would it be worth it replacing a Carnifex Brood with some Hive Crones?

I played with your list on army builder a bit, Those restrictions are tough. Exocrine is a good standalone but not better than those Dakkafexes. And with no free formation ally or CAD slots, they aren't worth wasting on an Exocrine because the meat of your army needs to come from those 3 slots. You have ample Synapse btw. Would I ditch fexes for a Crone? No. But what I would do is ditch the additional 100 pts of Gants, turn the Malanhropes to a Venom/Zope/Zope load out, and grab a Harpy. The big loss from the Living Artillery is the AP anti-infantry clusters to support our Devourer spam, you can get away with no Exocrine for Power/Terminator armour since they aren't as common and more expensive so your Dakkafexes will trade well enough with them in CC and Dakkashots anyway, but it's really nice to have something that trades really efficiently with large numbers GEQ, and Harpy fills a very similar offensive role to the Biovores. Plus, this gives you 4 rolls for Onslaught which is amazing with 3 broods of Dakkafex. The Harpy can support an assault too with Dakkafexes if it comes to it, Screech reducing their iniative to 1 allowing Carnis to amazingly get the first strike lol!

The other option would be to condense the squads of Dakkafex into 2x3 and taking a squad of Biovores. As far as your Terms go, bubble wrap is nice, but not nicer than critical offensive coverage. Melta is bad vs Nids anyway as is acounter ssaults so don't put too much value into gribble screens, take them where you can get them but don't blow an extra 100 points on them.

This is all just my opinion and I'm sure someone is going to come in and disagree with it all. However i really like what you've gone for with your list, I feel like I can see all your reasoning with your choices and under the restrictions I think that's exactly what I would take (after the minor changes I suggested).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My changes bring it to 1745 btw.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Frozocrone wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
To give you the best answer to that question I'd need to see your whole list! However I can definitely tell you that ditching e-Grubs for 1.5 Gargoyles is a bad idea. Depending on your synapse, taking 13 Gargoyles (unlucky!) for a Zoanthrope or other form of Synapse might be a good idea. However, as far as all the top 3 go, the best answer is definitely #1. There is absolutely no benefit to running them as one squad, and the upgrades are overpriced. But it's fine to run them as a 20 man squad if you want to open up another fast attack squad, the difference is minimal.

Ahh fair, well my list is in the spoiler. All my thoughts are in the spoiler, don't want to clog a post.

Spoiler:

Hive Tyrant
-Wings
-Twin-Linked Devourers with Brain Leechworms
-Twin-Linked Devourers with Brain Leechworms
-Electroshock Grubs
=240

Hive Tyrant
-Wings
-Twin-Linked Devourers with Brain Leechworms
-Twin-Linked Devourers with Brain Leechworms
-Electroshock Grubs
=240

Troops
Termagants x15
=60

Termagants x15
=60

Termagants x15
=60

Elites
Malanthrope
=85

Malanthrope
=85

Heavy Support
Carnifexes x2
-Twin Linked Devourers x2
-Twin Linked Devourers x2
=300

Carnifexes x2
-Twin Linked Devourers x2
-Twin Linked Devourers x2
=300

Carnifexes x2
-Twin-Linked Devourers x2
-Twin-Linked Devourers x2
=300

Which comes to 1730.

I'm looking at Gargoyles as they can tarpit dangerous units and are fast to boot.

I've got 3 units of Termagants bubble-wrapping the Carnifexes that are dishing out 24 S6 shots so it seems pretty good on paper

I would have liked to take either an Exocrine or Bastion/Aegis Defence Line, but the new local tournament is trying out a new rule set which is, only one CAD, no Allies, no Formations. But they also banned fortifications :s so I sort of went 'spam S6' Is an Exocrine a good stand alone unit?

Would it be worth it replacing a Carnifex Brood with some Hive Crones?

I played with your list on army builder a bit, Those restrictions are tough. Exocrine is a good standalone but not better than those Dakkafexes. And with no free formation ally or CAD slots, they aren't worth wasting on an Exocrine because the meat of your army needs to come from those 3 slots. You have ample Synapse btw. Would I ditch fexes for a Crone? No. But what I would do is ditch the additional 100 pts of Gants, turn the Malanhropes to a Venom/Zope/Zope load out, and grab a Harpy. The big loss from the Living Artillery is the AP anti-infantry clusters to support our Devourer spam, you can get away with no Exocrine for Power/Terminator armour since they aren't as common and more expensive so your Dakkafexes will trade well enough with them in CC and Dakkashots anyway, but it's really nice to have something that trades really efficiently with large numbers GEQ, and Harpy fills a very similar offensive role to the Biovores. Plus, this gives you 4 rolls for Onslaught which is amazing with 3 broods of Dakkafex. The Harpy can support an assault too with Dakkafexes if it comes to it, Screech reducing their iniative to 1 allowing Carnis to amazingly get the first strike lol!

The other option would be to condense the squads of Dakkafex into 2x3 and taking a squad of Biovores. As far as your Terms go, bubble wrap is nice, but not nicer than critical offensive coverage. Melta is bad vs Nids anyway as is acounter ssaults so don't put too much value into gribble screens, take them where you can get them but don't blow an extra 100 points on them.

This is all just my opinion and I'm sure someone is going to come in and disagree with it all. However i really like what you've gone for with your list, I feel like I can see all your reasoning with your choices and under the restrictions I think that's exactly what I would take (after the minor changes I suggested).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My changes bring it to 1745 btw.

Thanks for the advice! I think a small unit of Gargoyles and Deepstriking Rippers could fill out the last points?

Which one would you personally go for, considering the changes to the Elites section and reduction of Troops, Harpy or Biovores?

Personally Id work it to two units of two Carnifexes and not add any more bodies to the table such as gargoyles. Im not a fan of that many gants on the table especially in a tournament setting for time considerations. Two flyrants, 4 fexes and something like a Tyranofex to tank bullets
and youve got a tough list. Your current one just doesnt have a lot of punch in my opinion, so maybe a large Biovore brood has a place.

SHUPPET wrote:

On the subject of Malanthropes,

lechine ! that looks amazing !!

Frozocrone wrote:I agree with SHUPPET, that Thrope looks awesome! I especially love that base

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Hey tag how useful do you find blind? I've never even bothered experimenting with it, do you blind with every attack? I just sink a few gargs into something and let it play it outself out generally, might have to start taking blind rolls

You have to announce you are using blind. If you use blind on the charge, you give up your charge bonus, but otherwise it is the same attack (S3 ap:-). If you hit while using blind (no need to wound), then the opponent has to take an initiative test. If they fail then they are WS1 aka hitting on 5's. It is wonderful against a Riptide who is init 2. Also good against things that have init 1 because of unwieldy. For instance Thunder Hammer Space wolves.

It doesn't work so hot against higher init models like Wraith Knights, but I'm pretty sure it works on walkers, though I've never pulled it off.

Blind is pretty good. It was brutal in 6th Ed. when you had to make an Inititative check for each Blind hit. But now it's a single Initative check. What is nice, though, is that single models trade their attacks in for Blind attacks. So on the charge, you don't have to give up the whole unit's charge attacks. Instead, have 2 or 3 Gargoyles use their Blinding Venom in order to guarantee a hit and force at least one Initiative check, while the rest of the unit strikes with full attacks from the charge. The Blinding Venom is also Poison 6+ so you can kill things like Wraithknights or GUO's. Walkers are immune to Blind. Also, you mention Riptides - they are also immune to Blind due to their Black Sun Filters.

Also, i'm pretty positive that's not how it works with the Thunder Hammer / Unwieldy. Models strike at I1 - they aren't I1 for purposes of Initiative tests. For example, Typhus is I5, can deploy his Destroyer Hive at I5, or strike at I1 - he and his unit must fail their Initiative check on a 6.

tag8833 wrote:

Boburrito wrote:

CAD
2x -Flyrants (1 w/ Egrubs)
3x -Hive Crones
10x -termagants
10x -termagants
Skyblight formation
1x -Flyrant (1 stranglethorn cannon, one tld w/ blw)
2x -Harpies
1x -Hive crone
10x -Gargoyles
10x -Gargoyles
10x -Gargoyles
I have 5 OS units which are pretty small but that isn't the focus of the army.

This list is going to really struggle in Maelstrom missions. You have no synapse outside of the Flyrants so your Gargoyles and Termagants are likely to fail synapse and run away. You will generally have to table your opponent to win, or start landing you FMC's which defeats the point. Instead consider dropping 2 Crones for a Malanthrope (midfield synapse, buffer), and a Zoey (backfield synapse, buffer), and adding more gargoyles to use the remaining points.

One underrated feature of the Zoey is helping you cast Warp Lance / Blast from a flyrant. It doesn't count as firing a weapon so it is one extra shot for a 50 point unit that can also support and buff in its own right.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

luke1705 wrote:

Boburrito wrote:
Hi! I've seen quite few nice army lists while skimming through here, but I have a few questions for you guys.
1. What units are the most competitive? What combination of units make up the most competitive list? I'm not gonna lie, I like to win and knowing this can help me make a stronger list, while being able to make it fun as well.
2. It seems that both rippers and dimas are probably the most controversial units available to the tyranids but do you think there is any way to make them worth taking? Can you build a list around them to make them strong? Their models are just so darn cool! I know that the Dima discussion went on a few pages back but it seems like some new people have joined the conversation so I'll ask it again.
As always, thanks for your time.

Rippers! - 45 points gets you a deep-striking squad of three. If that wasn't good enough, they have stealth, are fearless, and their instinctive behavior means that they can essentially function outside of synapse quite well. Plop them down on whatever objective you want with their deep strike, and they will not run away. Really no contest with normal Termagants, who need a synapse babysitter to not run away, and can't deep strike for tactical flexibility.

Termagants can participate in the game beyond deep striking and scoring objectives. Termagants are survivable than Rippers. The advantage isn't as clear as you indicate. I would give termagants the advantage 80/20, but most people (especially those still playing Eternal War missions) go the other way.

luke1705 wrote:
Hive Guard - Haywire at range? Or just str 8 ignores cover (sort of) and doesn't need LOS? Sign me up! I don't run these guys but that's just a play-style preference. I know a lot of people love them. The only downside is the relatively low range

The biggest downside is Assault 2, BS 3, AP 4. So each Hive guard hits once on average and does 2/3 of a hull point to a rhino, or 1/2 of a hull point to a Wave Serpent with 0% chance of exploding it. How eager are you to spend 165 points on a unit that can kill at most 120 points of Rhinos in a game?

luke1705 wrote:
Shrikes - pretty expensive for their durability, but some people like them. I have very little experience with these guys so I will leave it at that

Shrikes do everything warriors do better. So if you like Warriors, you should love Shrikes.

luke1705 wrote:
Raveners - With the advent of the malanthrope, I think we'll be finding more of these in people's lists. Give them a nice screen of gargoyles and they're rocking 3+ cover all the way into a turn 2 assault. Definitely worth consideration

Shrikes are like higher leadership, more versatile Raveners with 1 less initiative and Synapse. Any time you are taking Raveners, add an equal or greater sized unit of Shrikes. If you decided to replace every ravener with a Shrike you wouldn't be doing anything wrong.

luke1705 wrote:
Gargoyes - what the flying hive tyrant is to the HQ section, these dudes are to the fast attack section. Great utility if you want them to have poison, or just a cheap and fast screening unit otherwise.

Also the best tarpit in the game. They can get there. They can get there in numbers, and they can blind.

tag8833 wrote:
Termagants can participate in the game beyond deep striking and scoring objectives. Termagants are survivable than Rippers. The advantage isn't as clear as you indicate. I would give termagants the advantage 80/20, but most people (especially those still playing Eternal War missions) go the other way.

Termagants can do a slightly better job acting as a funnel or bubblewrap. But taking broods of 10 doesn't make for much of a tarpit or bubblewrap.
And termagants can't do anything 'beyond' deepstriking, because they can't do that. Anything they do they do in place of the mobility provided by DS.
But the harshest problem, is you can't take 'just' gaunts, they have to have a synapse babysitter, so the comparison is between 2 broods of rippers, or 2 broods of gaunts *and* enough synapse to keep them under control.

As for survivability... that depends. They both have about the same number of wounds, but rippers are more susceptible to S6+ shooting and blasts, but in return are much easier to hide out of LoS and are not slowed by diff terrain. And, as mentioned, can go and hide places without need of a babysitter. And with DS, they can be kept off the board and safe for 2-4 turns and still be where you want them later.

The biggest downside is Assault 2, BS 3, AP 4. So each Hive guard hits once on average and does 2/3 of a hull point to a rhino, or 1/2 of a hull point to a Wave Serpent with 0% chance of exploding it. How eager are you to spend 165 points on a unit that can kill at most 120 points of Rhinos in a game?

That is horrible comparison. A flyrant is 230pts, and will only take out 210pts of rhinos in a game.
And you have skipped over cover saves. That same flyrant will only get .6 HP from the wave serpent once you account for the cover save. Those 3 Hive Guard will do 1.5 HP to that same wave serpent, since they ignore cover saves.
Plus hive guard can ID T4 models, and deal damage to units relying on their cover saves for protection.

Shrikes do everything warriors do better. So if you like Warriors, you should love Shrikes.

Except provide Objective Secured, fulfill a troop requirement, have a better save, and unlock various formations.
Granted, I have switched one of my MSU warrior broods for an MSU shrike brood, but there are some downsides also.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wilson wrote:

Really? I don't consider synapse an issue on LD10 Fearless MC's. Nor do I on re-spawning Gargoyles.
Warriors for Synapse on a fast moving army? :S You must be high!

Until you realize you have 6 of those, which means if they are all out of synapse, you will fail one IB test per turn. Granted, they will not all be out, but even if half are out, that is a fail every other turn.
And those gargs are not re-spawning, they are 50%-re-spawning, every time they go away, there is a good chance they are gone for good. Gargs are IB-hunt, so they will stick around for a failed IB, but will still break morale from shooting or CC.

 Wilson wrote:

Spoiler:

pinecone77 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Boburrito wrote:

CAD
2x -Flyrants (1 w/ Egrubs)
3x -Hive Crones
10x -termagants
10x -termagants
Skyblight formation
1x -Flyrant (1 stranglethorn cannon, one tld w/ blw)
2x -Harpies
1x -Hive crone
10x -Gargoyles
10x -Gargoyles
10x -Gargoyles
I have 5 OS units which are pretty small but that isn't the focus of the army.

This list is going to really struggle in Maelstrom missions. You have no synapse outside of the Flyrants so your Gargoyles and Termagants are likely to fail synapse and run away. You will generally have to table your opponent to win, or start landing you FMC's which defeats the point. Instead consider dropping 2 Crones for a Malanthrope (midfield synapse, buffer), and a Zoey (backfield synapse, buffer), and adding more gargoyles to use the remaining points.

One underrated feature of the Zoey is helping you cast Warp Lance / Blast from a flyrant. It doesn't count as firing a weapon so it is one extra shot for a 50 point unit that can also support and buff in its own right.

luke1705 wrote:

Boburrito wrote:
Hi! I've seen quite few nice army lists while skimming through here, but I have a few questions for you guys.
1. What units are the most competitive? What combination of units make up the most competitive list? I'm not gonna lie, I like to win and knowing this can help me make a stronger list, while being able to make it fun as well.
2. It seems that both rippers and dimas are probably the most controversial units available to the tyranids but do you think there is any way to make them worth taking? Can you build a list around them to make them strong? Their models are just so darn cool! I know that the Dima discussion went on a few pages back but it seems like some new people have joined the conversation so I'll ask it again.
As always, thanks for your time.

Rippers! - 45 points gets you a deep-striking squad of three. If that wasn't good enough, they have stealth, are fearless, and their instinctive behavior means that they can essentially function outside of synapse quite well. Plop them down on whatever objective you want with their deep strike, and they will not run away. Really no contest with normal Termagants, who need a synapse babysitter to not run away, and can't deep strike for tactical flexibility.

Termagants can participate in the game beyond deep striking and scoring objectives. Termagants are survivable than Rippers. The advantage isn't as clear as you indicate. I would give termagants the advantage 80/20, but most people (especially those still playing Eternal War missions) go the other way.

luke1705 wrote:
Hive Guard - Haywire at range? Or just str 8 ignores cover (sort of) and doesn't need LOS? Sign me up! I don't run these guys but that's just a play-style preference. I know a lot of people love them. The only downside is the relatively low range

The biggest downside is Assault 2, BS 3, AP 4. So each Hive guard hits once on average and does 2/3 of a hull point to a rhino, or 1/2 of a hull point to a Wave Serpent with 0% chance of exploding it. How eager are you to spend 165 points on a unit that can kill at most 120 points of Rhinos in a game?

luke1705 wrote:
Shrikes - pretty expensive for their durability, but some people like them. I have very little experience with these guys so I will leave it at that

Shrikes do everything warriors do better. So if you like Warriors, you should love Shrikes.

luke1705 wrote:
Raveners - With the advent of the malanthrope, I think we'll be finding more of these in people's lists. Give them a nice screen of gargoyles and they're rocking 3+ cover all the way into a turn 2 assault. Definitely worth consideration

Shrikes are like higher leadership, more versatile Raveners with 1 less initiative and Synapse. Any time you are taking Raveners, add an equal or greater sized unit of Shrikes. If you decided to replace every ravener with a Shrike you wouldn't be doing anything wrong.

luke1705 wrote:
Gargoyes - what the flying hive tyrant is to the HQ section, these dudes are to the fast attack section. Great utility if you want them to have poison, or just a cheap and fast screening unit otherwise.

Also the best tarpit in the game. They can get there. They can get there in numbers, and they can blind.

Yes, one of the "unspoken" issues with Skyblight is Synapse. That is why I usually suggest two Broods of Warriors for the mandated Troops.....expensive, but Synapse (plus Cannons)

Really? I don't consider synapse an issue on LD10 Fearless MC's. Nor do I on re-spawning Gargoyles.
Warriors for Synapse on a fast moving army? :S You must be high!

Warriors are a decent suggestion. I prefer a zoey for the reasons I specified, but warriors are more survivable and have OS. I would go with 1 brood rather than 2.

You should be worried about synapse on respawning gargoyles. They fail synapse 60% of the time. 1/2 of those failures run away, and the rest mean that they can't charge and tarpit or eat overwatch or claim a controlled objective. Also they only respawn 1/2 of the time. But more important, is the way for Skyblight to get into the air is Shrouded + Jink for a 2+ cover save against alpha strikes. No shrouded = lose 2 FMC's on turn 1 when your opponent gets 1st turn.

NOTE: I know that the key to playing skyblight for many players is to "forget" about instinctive behavior and hope your opponent doesn't call you on it, but I would never advocate that, nor would I do it intentionally.

 Wilson wrote:

Spoiler:

pinecone77 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Boburrito wrote:

CAD
2x -Flyrants (1 w/ Egrubs)
3x -Hive Crones
10x -termagants
10x -termagants
Skyblight formation
1x -Flyrant (1 stranglethorn cannon, one tld w/ blw)
2x -Harpies
1x -Hive crone
10x -Gargoyles
10x -Gargoyles
10x -Gargoyles
I have 5 OS units which are pretty small but that isn't the focus of the army.

This list is going to really struggle in Maelstrom missions. You have no synapse outside of the Flyrants so your Gargoyles and Termagants are likely to fail synapse and run away. You will generally have to table your opponent to win, or start landing you FMC's which defeats the point. Instead consider dropping 2 Crones for a Malanthrope (midfield synapse, buffer), and a Zoey (backfield synapse, buffer), and adding more gargoyles to use the remaining points.

One underrated feature of the Zoey is helping you cast Warp Lance / Blast from a flyrant. It doesn't count as firing a weapon so it is one extra shot for a 50 point unit that can also support and buff in its own right.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

luke1705 wrote:

Boburrito wrote:
Hi! I've seen quite few nice army lists while skimming through here, but I have a few questions for you guys.
1. What units are the most competitive? What combination of units make up the most competitive list? I'm not gonna lie, I like to win and knowing this can help me make a stronger list, while being able to make it fun as well.
2. It seems that both rippers and dimas are probably the most controversial units available to the tyranids but do you think there is any way to make them worth taking? Can you build a list around them to make them strong? Their models are just so darn cool! I know that the Dima discussion went on a few pages back but it seems like some new people have joined the conversation so I'll ask it again.
As always, thanks for your time.

Rippers! - 45 points gets you a deep-striking squad of three. If that wasn't good enough, they have stealth, are fearless, and their instinctive behavior means that they can essentially function outside of synapse quite well. Plop them down on whatever objective you want with their deep strike, and they will not run away. Really no contest with normal Termagants, who need a synapse babysitter to not run away, and can't deep strike for tactical flexibility.

Termagants can participate in the game beyond deep striking and scoring objectives. Termagants are survivable than Rippers. The advantage isn't as clear as you indicate. I would give termagants the advantage 80/20, but most people (especially those still playing Eternal War missions) go the other way.

luke1705 wrote:
Hive Guard - Haywire at range? Or just str 8 ignores cover (sort of) and doesn't need LOS? Sign me up! I don't run these guys but that's just a play-style preference. I know a lot of people love them. The only downside is the relatively low range

The biggest downside is Assault 2, BS 3, AP 4. So each Hive guard hits once on average and does 2/3 of a hull point to a rhino, or 1/2 of a hull point to a Wave Serpent with 0% chance of exploding it. How eager are you to spend 165 points on a unit that can kill at most 120 points of Rhinos in a game?

luke1705 wrote:
Shrikes - pretty expensive for their durability, but some people like them. I have very little experience with these guys so I will leave it at that

Shrikes do everything warriors do better. So if you like Warriors, you should love Shrikes.

luke1705 wrote:
Raveners - With the advent of the malanthrope, I think we'll be finding more of these in people's lists. Give them a nice screen of gargoyles and they're rocking 3+ cover all the way into a turn 2 assault. Definitely worth consideration

Shrikes are like higher leadership, more versatile Raveners with 1 less initiative and Synapse. Any time you are taking Raveners, add an equal or greater sized unit of Shrikes. If you decided to replace every ravener with a Shrike you wouldn't be doing anything wrong.

luke1705 wrote:
Gargoyes - what the flying hive tyrant is to the HQ section, these dudes are to the fast attack section. Great utility if you want them to have poison, or just a cheap and fast screening unit otherwise.

Also the best tarpit in the game. They can get there. They can get there in numbers, and they can blind.

Yes, one of the "unspoken" issues with Skyblight is Synapse. That is why I usually suggest two Broods of Warriors for the mandated Troops.....expensive, but Synapse (plus Cannons)

NOTE: I know that the key to playing skyblight for many players is to "forget" about instinctive behavior and hope your opponent doesn't call you on it, but I would never advocate that, nor would I do it intentionally.

Is that a well known thing? and I thought I was alone! haha RATS! MOD delete these posts! The other players are on to us!!!

coredump wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Termagants can participate in the game beyond deep striking and scoring objectives. Termagants are survivable than Rippers. The advantage isn't as clear as you indicate. I would give termagants the advantage 80/20, but most people (especially those still playing Eternal War missions) go the other way.

Termagants can do a slightly better job acting as a funnel or bubblewrap. But taking broods of 10 doesn't make for much of a tarpit or bubblewrap.
And termagants can't do anything 'beyond' deepstriking, because they can't do that. Anything they do they do in place of the mobility provided by DS.
But the harshest problem, is you can't take 'just' gaunts, they have to have a synapse babysitter, so the comparison is between 2 broods of rippers, or 2 broods of gaunts *and* enough synapse to keep them under control.

Thanks to the Malanthrope you are always going to have a babysitter for Gants. You also get a survivability bump from him, and an ability to tarpit. Your MC's wonder off and do their thing, but the gants always stay with the Malanthrope for a mutually beneficial synergy.

ETA. I phrased this a little reductively. There are situations where a Malanthrope moves away from gaunts, but usually not very far.

coredump wrote:

The biggest downside is Assault 2, BS 3, AP 4. So each Hive guard hits once on average and does 2/3 of a hull point to a rhino, or 1/2 of a hull point to a Wave Serpent with 0% chance of exploding it. How eager are you to spend 165 points on a unit that can kill at most 120 points of Rhinos in a game?

That is horrible comparison. A flyrant is 230pts, and will only take out 210pts of rhinos in a game.
And you have skipped over cover saves. That same flyrant will only get .6 HP from the wave serpent once you account for the cover save. Those 3 Hive Guard will do 1.5 HP to that same wave serpent, since they ignore cover saves.
Plus hive guard can ID T4 models, and deal damage to units relying on their cover saves for protection.

How many T4 models are there with multiple wounds and a 4+ armor?

Hive guard should definitely kill 1/2 of a wave serpent a turn. They don't in my experience because the wave serpent can kill them easily, and can stay out of range if it chooses, but it is possible. A flyrant can indeed kill rhinos. It can kill wave serpents. Where it separates itself from hive guard is that it can kill other things too. It can kill the fire dragons that got out of the wave serpent (3+ dead per turn vs 0.8 for hive guard). Hive Guard are a unitasker. They kill light armor. They don't do it as well as Flyrants, but are roughly on par with Carnfexes, and Crones, and a little better than Exocrines. However, if you opponent doesn't have light armor, or if you kill it all, the Hive Guard become pretty minor contributors. Hive Guard have one job, and they aren't very good at it.

coredump wrote:

Shrikes do everything warriors do better. So if you like Warriors, you should love Shrikes.

Except provide Objective Secured, fulfill a troop requirement, have a better save, and unlock various formations.
Granted, I have switched one of my MSU warrior broods for an MSU shrike brood, but there are some downsides also.

Shrikes are going to score you more points than warriors. Loss of O.S. is more than compensated for by the increased mobility. I also argue that the increased mobility allows you to get cover more often giving them roughly equal survivability in the open field. However, the increased mobility also gives them the ability to hide in combat which warriors can't really do because they can't get there.

 Iechine wrote:
Personally Id work it to two units of two Carnifexes and not add any more bodies to the table such as gargoyles. Im not a fan of that many gants on the table especially in a tournament setting for time considerations. Two flyrants, 4 fexes and something like a Tyranofex to tank bullets
and youve got a tough list. Your current one just doesnt have a lot of punch in my opinion, so maybe a large Biovore brood has a place.

Thanks for the input The Biovores take up 120 points so leave 180 points left, how would you flesh out the rest of the points if I were to replace a Carnifex Brood?

I wouldnt replace carnifexes, Id replace gants. If I was running 1850 single CAD it'd be

2x Flyrants with devs/electro
2x Malanthrope
4x Rippers w/DS
20 Gargoyles
Crone
2x Carnifex with Devs
2x Carnifex with Devs
Mawloc (Or 3x Biovore)

Im pretty done with termagants and the like for this edition.

 Iechine wrote:
I wouldnt replace carnifexes, Id replace gants. If I was running 1850 single CAD it'd be

2x Flyrants with devs/electro
2x Malanthrope
4x Rippers w/DS
20 Gargoyles
Crone
2x Carnifex with Devs
2x Carnifex with Devs
Mawloc (Or 3x Biovore)

Im pretty done with termagants and the like for this edition.

Looks pretty good from where I am sitting. Can I ask why you don't like Termagants in 7th?

rollawaythestone wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Hey tag how useful do you find blind? I've never even bothered experimenting with it, do you blind with every attack? I just sink a few gargs into something and let it play it outself out generally, might have to start taking blind rolls

You have to announce you are using blind. If you use blind on the charge, you give up your charge bonus, but otherwise it is the same attack (S3 ap:-). If you hit while using blind (no need to wound), then the opponent has to take an initiative test. If they fail then they are WS1 aka hitting on 5's. It is wonderful against a Riptide who is init 2. Also good against things that have init 1 because of unwieldy. For instance Thunder Hammer Space wolves.

It doesn't work so hot against higher init models like Wraith Knights, but I'm pretty sure it works on walkers, though I've never pulled it off.

Blind is pretty good. It was brutal in 6th Ed. when you had to make an Inititative check for each Blind hit. But now it's a single Initative check. What is nice, though, is that single models trade their attacks in for Blind attacks. So on the charge, you don't have to give up the whole unit's charge attacks. Instead, have 2 or 3 Gargoyles use their Blinding Venom in order to guarantee a hit and force at least one Initiative check, while the rest of the unit strikes with full attacks from the charge. The Blinding Venom is also Poison 6+ so you can kill things like Wraithknights or GUO's. Walkers are immune to Blind. Also, you mention Riptides - they are also immune to Blind due to their Black Sun Filters.

Also, i'm pretty positive that's not how it works with the Thunder Hammer / Unwieldy. Models strike at I1 - they aren't I1 for purposes of Initiative tests. For example, Typhus is I5, can deploy his Destroyer Hive at I5, or strike at I1 - he and his unit must fail their Initiative check on a 6.

I was going to mention this, and you are right, it's a characteristic test, unwieldy just affects it's combat priority not its actual Iniative.

I hadn't even payed attention to those 7th blind changes! Looks really much more usable. The way tag described them (the way it worked in 6th) came across very meh to me.

 SHUPPET wrote:

rollawaythestone wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Hey tag how useful do you find blind? I've never even bothered experimenting with it, do you blind with every attack? I just sink a few gargs into something and let it play it outself out generally, might have to start taking blind rolls

You have to announce you are using blind. If you use blind on the charge, you give up your charge bonus, but otherwise it is the same attack (S3 ap:-). If you hit while using blind (no need to wound), then the opponent has to take an initiative test. If they fail then they are WS1 aka hitting on 5's. It is wonderful against a Riptide who is init 2. Also good against things that have init 1 because of unwieldy. For instance Thunder Hammer Space wolves.

It doesn't work so hot against higher init models like Wraith Knights, but I'm pretty sure it works on walkers, though I've never pulled it off.

Blind is pretty good. It was brutal in 6th Ed. when you had to make an Inititative check for each Blind hit. But now it's a single Initative check. What is nice, though, is that single models trade their attacks in for Blind attacks. So on the charge, you don't have to give up the whole unit's charge attacks. Instead, have 2 or 3 Gargoyles use their Blinding Venom in order to guarantee a hit and force at least one Initiative check, while the rest of the unit strikes with full attacks from the charge. The Blinding Venom is also Poison 6+ so you can kill things like Wraithknights or GUO's. Walkers are immune to Blind. Also, you mention Riptides - they are also immune to Blind due to their Black Sun Filters.

Also, i'm pretty positive that's not how it works with the Thunder Hammer / Unwieldy. Models strike at I1 - they aren't I1 for purposes of Initiative tests. For example, Typhus is I5, can deploy his Destroyer Hive at I5, or strike at I1 - he and his unit must fail their Initiative check on a 6.

I was going to mention this, and you are right, it's a characteristic test, unwieldy just affects it's combat priority not its actual Iniative.

I hadn't even payed attention to those 7th blind changes! Looks really much more usable. The way tag described them (the way it worked in 6th) came across very meh to me.

Yep my bad. I've used it on Warbosses with PKs. The only time I tried to use it on thunder cav, he made all of his init tests, so i must have played it right, because he was in that multi assault for 4 of 4 rounds.

 SHUPPET wrote:

rollawaythestone wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Hey tag how useful do you find blind? I've never even bothered experimenting with it, do you blind with every attack? I just sink a few gargs into something and let it play it outself out generally, might have to start taking blind rolls

You have to announce you are using blind. If you use blind on the charge, you give up your charge bonus, but otherwise it is the same attack (S3 ap:-). If you hit while using blind (no need to wound), then the opponent has to take an initiative test. If they fail then they are WS1 aka hitting on 5's. It is wonderful against a Riptide who is init 2. Also good against things that have init 1 because of unwieldy. For instance Thunder Hammer Space wolves.

It doesn't work so hot against higher init models like Wraith Knights, but I'm pretty sure it works on walkers, though I've never pulled it off.

Blind is pretty good. It was brutal in 6th Ed. when you had to make an Inititative check for each Blind hit. But now it's a single Initative check. What is nice, though, is that single models trade their attacks in for Blind attacks. So on the charge, you don't have to give up the whole unit's charge attacks. Instead, have 2 or 3 Gargoyles use their Blinding Venom in order to guarantee a hit and force at least one Initiative check, while the rest of the unit strikes with full attacks from the charge. The Blinding Venom is also Poison 6+ so you can kill things like Wraithknights or GUO's. Walkers are immune to Blind. Also, you mention Riptides - they are also immune to Blind due to their Black Sun Filters.

Also, i'm pretty positive that's not how it works with the Thunder Hammer / Unwieldy. Models strike at I1 - they aren't I1 for purposes of Initiative tests. For example, Typhus is I5, can deploy his Destroyer Hive at I5, or strike at I1 - he and his unit must fail their Initiative check on a 6.

I was going to mention this, and you are right, it's a characteristic test, unwieldy just affects it's combat priority not its actual Iniative.

I hadn't even payed attention to those 7th blind changes! Looks really much more usable. The way tag described them (the way it worked in 6th) came across very meh to me.

Blind is demonstrably worse in 7th. In 6th, you could force a Initiative check for each successful Hit made by one of the Gargoyles. Thus a unit of Gargoyles using their blind could virtually guarantee the target was blinded. Now, it's only a single Initiative check no matter how many Hits occur.

Blind is basically the same, just clarified to only be one test now. As much as garg lovers everywhere wanted it to be per hit, I don't really know anyone that played it like that. It was just really poorly written.

Here's a few shots of my own custom-made Harpy. Still need to touch up the paint job, gloss the wings and some of the carapace, and flock the base (call me oldschool, I love white snow flock!). But here's what I'm looking at for now:
I apologise for the dreadful lighting!! All I have is an iPhone and nowhere in my house i can set up decent shots.

My paintwork isn't anywhere near on the level of some of the posters in this thread, hopefully my conversion perks some interest tho!

I love those wings. I have a greater daemon/mutalith voidbeast/thing I made that uses those.

Just though I would share this light report on an OOE lead nid list. I got a nice little 500pt game sunday against necrons, and ran OOE for fun. He turned out to be quite the beast.

Nid's:
HQ:
OOE 220

Elite
Zoe 50
Zoe 50

Troops
10 Hormie 50
10 Hormie 50
10 Termigaunts
10 Termiguants


Necrons: (actually may have have a point advantage)

HQ:
Obyron

Troops
6 Warriors
8 immortals

HVY
Annilation barge


We played Purge the Alien, used a 4x4 board do to the small point level. I got Catalyst and Horror on the Zoes. First Turn was night fighting. Nid's when First

I deploy OOE in the middle with a clear charge line, on both flanks went 1 Zoe and a brood of Termis and Hormies with good cover on the right side.

Turn 1: Nids charged down field using the cover of night fighting. Zoes each got off Dominion and the one got off Catalyst on itself and OOE. Every one ran, with both Hormies getting a 6 inch run and OOE a nice 4" run. Necrons held ground and poured fire in too OOE from the immortals and warriors. only netted one wound which was FNPed a way. The barge fired in to the hormies hoping to arc in to both the guants and Zoe. Lost 4 Hormies but not much else.

Turn 2: Nids close to charge range on the left and crest the right flank cover to prepare for a turn 3 charge. OOE closes on the Barge. Hormie guants close on the Immortalls and Obyron. Zoe 1 perils on Warp lance taking a wound, and passes Dominon. Zoe 2 fails catalyst and gets dominon. OOE charges the barge and gets 1 HoW glance, then 8 hits and pens in assault. Barge goes boom. Hormigants attempt the charge, come up short and loose 2 to overwatch. Imortals in turn attempt to ghost walk away but scatter next to OOE, inflict 2 wounds in the shooting phase. Warriors kill left Zoanthrope.

Turn 3: OOE regens 1 wound, passes IB, and Adaptive mutation kicks in. Left Hormiganst out of Synapse fail IB and eat each other killing 1. Left Termigaunts just in range of right Zoe dominion. Move everyone closer to necrons. Here I make a mistake and drop catalyst on the right Termigants instead of the hormigants, and kick off dominion. Termigants fire at immortals and wiff, right ones fire at warriors and wiff. Left Termigants charge immortals, and opponent makes the mistake of overwatching them. they come up short on the charge do to losing 3. OOE however makes the charge unmolested. Gets 3 HoW to wound 3 Immortals but make all saves, then gets a total of 9 attacks on the Immortals with 3 misses. 4 immortals fall. Oberyon wiffs, the immortals hit but fail to wound. Necrons fail moral check and are swept by OOE. On the right, the warriors mange to overwatch the hormigants down to 3, which manage to get killed in the assault after doing nothing. Warriors fall back and gun down lead element of termigaunt advance.

Turn 4: Nids turn full force on remaining Warriors. Zoanthrope warp blasts one done, termigaunts fell 2 more. The remains 4 overwatch the Termies out of charge distance. 2 Warriors get back up and fall back killing more guants.

Turn 5: We called the game as there was now way the warriors would survive turn 5, and we both had to get home.

Nids win 6-2

OOE was as always fun to play, did the most killing in the game with the Barge, 8 immortals, and Obyron. Had the opponent focused down on OOE, he probably would have won the game as I had nothing else to reliably threaten the Barge.

Out of curiosity, can we use the apocalypse formations for 'Nids from the Valedor book in standard 40k, much like escalation? I would like to hear the opinion on the Eater Swarm.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Out of curiosity, can we use the apocalypse formations for 'Nids from the Valedor book in standard 40k, much like escalation? I would like to hear the opinion on the Eater Swarm.

No. Apoc formations are not like normal 40k Formations. They can only be used in Apoc games.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Here's a few shots of my own custom-made Harpy. Still need to touch up the paint job, gloss the wings and some of the carapace, and flock the base (call me oldschool, I love white snow flock!). But here's what I'm looking at for now:
I apologise for the dreadful lighting!! All I have is an iPhone and nowhere in my house i can set up decent shots.

My paintwork isn't anywhere near on the level of some of the posters in this thread, hopefully my conversion perks some interest tho!

Very nice!

 Wilson wrote:

NOTE: I know that the key to playing skyblight for many players is to "forget" about instinctive behavior and hope your opponent doesn't call you on it, but I would never advocate that, nor would I do it intentionally.

Is that a well known thing? and I thought I was alone! haha RATS! MOD delete these posts! The other players are on to us!!!

WTF, this is total bull.
You can be fairly relaxed regarding Instinctive Behaviour if most of your Units are LD10, you don't just throw Instinctive behaviour out the window though nor have I come across anyone that does.

Now I have forgotten my rippers before...and so has everyone else at the table. But it was never maliciously. All they do is backfield objective camp for me.

Can't help it if my basecoat is dark gray and everything on the table is dark gray too...

 SHUPPET wrote:
Here's a few shots of my own custom-made Harpy. Still need to touch up the paint job, gloss the wings and some of the carapace, and flock the base (call me oldschool, I love white snow flock!). But here's what I'm looking at for now:
I apologise for the dreadful lighting!! All I have is an iPhone and nowhere in my house i can set up decent shots.

My paintwork isn't anywhere near on the level of some of the posters in this thread, hopefully my conversion perks some interest tho!

I really like the pose and base combo. Good stuff, Shuppet!

 L0rdF1end wrote:

 Wilson wrote:

NOTE: I know that the key to playing skyblight for many players is to "forget" about instinctive behavior and hope your opponent doesn't call you on it, but I would never advocate that, nor would I do it intentionally.

Is that a well known thing? and I thought I was alone! haha RATS! MOD delete these posts! The other players are on to us!!!

WTF, this is total bull.
You can be fairly relaxed regarding Instinctive Behaviour if most of your Units are LD10, you don't just throw Instinctive behaviour out the window though nor have I come across anyone that does.

I think its a joke broseph. ( at least I was joking!)

barnowl wrote:
Just though I would share this light report on an OOE lead nid list. I got a nice little 500pt game sunday against necrons, and ran OOE for fun. He turned out to be quite the beast.

Nid's:
HQ:
OOE 220

Elite
Zoe 50
Zoe 50

Troops
10 Hormie 50
10 Hormie 50
10 Termigaunts
10 Termiguants


Necrons: (actually may have have a point advantage)

HQ:
Obyron

Troops
6 Warriors
8 immortals

HVY
Annilation barge


We played Purge the Alien, used a 4x4 board do to the small point level. I got Catalyst and Horror on the Zoes. First Turn was night fighting. Nid's when First

I deploy OOE in the middle with a clear charge line, on both flanks went 1 Zoe and a brood of Termis and Hormies with good cover on the right side.

Turn 1: Nids charged down field using the cover of night fighting. Zoes each got off Dominion and the one got off Catalyst on itself and OOE. Every one ran, with both Hormies getting a 6 inch run and OOE a nice 4" run. Necrons held ground and poured fire in too OOE from the immortals and warriors. only netted one wound which was FNPed a way. The barge fired in to the hormies hoping to arc in to both the guants and Zoe. Lost 4 Hormies but not much else.

Turn 2: Nids close to charge range on the left and crest the right flank cover to prepare for a turn 3 charge. OOE closes on the Barge. Hormie guants close on the Immortalls and Obyron. Zoe 1 perils on Warp lance taking a wound, and passes Dominon. Zoe 2 fails catalyst and gets dominon. OOE charges the barge and gets 1 HoW glance, then 8 hits and pens in assault. Barge goes boom. Hormigants attempt the charge, come up short and loose 2 to overwatch. Imortals in turn attempt to ghost walk away but scatter next to OOE, inflict 2 wounds in the shooting phase. Warriors kill left Zoanthrope.

Turn 3: OOE regens 1 wound, passes IB, and Adaptive mutation kicks in. Left Hormiganst out of Synapse fail IB and eat each other killing 1. Left Termigaunts just in range of right Zoe dominion. Move everyone closer to necrons. Here I make a mistake and drop catalyst on the right Termigants instead of the hormigants, and kick off dominion. Termigants fire at immortals and wiff, right ones fire at warriors and wiff. Left Termigants charge immortals, and opponent makes the mistake of overwatching them. they come up short on the charge do to losing 3. OOE however makes the charge unmolested. Gets 3 HoW to wound 3 Immortals but make all saves, then gets a total of 9 attacks on the Immortals with 3 misses. 4 immortals fall. Oberyon wiffs, the immortals hit but fail to wound. Necrons fail moral check and are swept by OOE. On the right, the warriors mange to overwatch the hormigants down to 3, which manage to get killed in the assault after doing nothing. Warriors fall back and gun down lead element of termigaunt advance.

Turn 4: Nids turn full force on remaining Warriors. Zoanthrope warp blasts one done, termigaunts fell 2 more. The remains 4 overwatch the Termies out of charge distance. 2 Warriors get back up and fall back killing more guants.

Turn 5: We called the game as there was now way the warriors would survive turn 5, and we both had to get home.

Nids win 6-2

OOE was as always fun to play, did the most killing in the game with the Barge, 8 immortals, and Obyron. Had the opponent focused down on OOE, he probably would have won the game as I had nothing else to reliably threaten the Barge.

Nice, I hadn't realised you can fit in that many models at 500!! How well did the Zoanthropes perform with their Psychic Powers?

General question for all, are Harpy's worth taking if you take some Biovores? Are Hive Crones worth taking by themselves (I am running Two Flyrants and two units of Gargoyles, but can condense them to find room for another Crone).

 SHUPPET wrote:
Here's a few shots of my own custom-made Harpy. Still need to touch up the paint job, gloss the wings and some of the carapace, and flock the base (call me oldschool, I love white snow flock!). But here's what I'm looking at for now:
I apologise for the dreadful lighting!! All I have is an iPhone and nowhere in my house i can set up decent shots.

My paintwork isn't anywhere near on the level of some of the posters in this thread, hopefully my conversion perks some interest tho!


]

Okay dude... that is cool. Can you give the low-down on what models/bits you used for it? (if already in a thread, a link would suffice.)

SHUPPET that is so awesome !!!

Nice conversion.

I'm wondering if a tyrant's head would be more appropriate to the body due to the size. In the neck area with the carnifexes head joins with the dragon body looks somewhat unproportional. Maybe some green stuff will help with that?

Otherwise, a stellar job!

You might be right on that one jy2, I hadn't noticed that actually. Might just be the bad photo, I was really disappointed with how little of the Harpy itself I could catch in that actual photo, I'll have a look when I get home and see what it needs, thanks for pointing that out. I'll also give an in depth explanation of how i made him for you too coredump. The conversion was actually super easy (if I can do it anyone can ), and made up entirely of GW parts, costing about the same or a bit less than the official model, and that's including the fact that I had to pay multiple eBay sellers international shipping (being Australian), so Euros and Americans may find this even cheaper than I did.

I'm very anti-supportive of the new Nid release, and although I bought an Exocrine, I just couldn't justify buying that horrible new FMC dual kit they released.

The Harpy was intended to be a somewhat dynamic pose of him gliding down and Sonic Screeching. When I've finished basing and highlighting him, adding his Venom Cannons, and take some better shots I'm sure he'll look a lot better and a lot less like "generic Tyranid FMC". I know this because I've already done it once with my Crone who is fully finished and I'll also share some pics of. He looks a lot better, and I'll share the process of making (also super simple). Expect it up within the hour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


So I'm home now - Jy2 I looked at the model first hand, and slightly out of proportion might be correct, but far less than that photo would make it seem. Heres one from a different angle that might give you a better perspective:


The neck may be a little fat, but I'm planning on highlighting some blue fleshy bits ala gills or possibly adding some frills ala komodo dragon, to fit with the theme of them flaring up with the Sonic Screech. In a few weeks when parts arrive I'll share a finished shot at taken with a proper camera on a proper setting and get further feedback.

For now, here's some shots of my Hive Crone:

Base and Gloss unfinished, but worth sharing for the clarity I achieved with the shot:




Heres a Finished shot, with Tentaclids:



Fuzzy shot of them all together with one of my Flyrants, for sizing reference if you were curious.


Following this post up with a quick reference build, shouldn't take a minute.

First thing I started with for both models was a WHFB Terrorgheist. Won't take you long to spot the similarities

These things sell for 10 pound less than the Crone model on the English Games Workshop, not sure about U.S. but I'm sure it's still a save. I'd recommend checking eBay, where I found them even cheaper and ordered both mine at once off the one seller.

From there, the important bits are:

- your Heads - I used Tyrannofex head for my Harpy as it's what I had laying around and I personally really like it for the theme of the screeching Harpy, but as mentioned by Jy2, a Hive Tyrants head may look a little more in proportion. As for the Hive Crone you could try to jam that Drool Cannon down the throat of a Hive Tyrant head, I just used the standard Crone head for it. You can just use what you have left over from kits by all means, the important thing is putting it together on the top of the Terrorgheist body. This requires a little bit of judging and holding parts against each other for sizing, but I basically just used a modelling knife to drill a hole in the base of the neck where the top of the Terrorgheist spine can slide through, than cut the terrogheist spine/further hollowed out the head as I saw fit to make it look natural. I was pretty rough with it, someone with ANY amount of patience or modelling skill could easily do a lot better than me (because past creativity, I really am pretty impatient and very average at the modelling side of this hobby lol)

- your ScyTals - for this I just took small Claws from the Mawloc kit, and stuck them just before the ribcarapace starts. These you will not have lying around, but luckily there is usually an abundance of them on eBay: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/40K-Tyranid-Trygon-Mawloc-Mawloc-Scything-Talons-Small-Bits-/380947633655?pt=Games_US&hash=item58b23f95f7&_uhb=1 You could I guess try the medium ones if you wanted them to be more prominent and, I just went with the small ones to keep it fairly lowkey, personal choice, did consider both. Wouldn't do the large ones (these ones are the standard MC size Scything Talons) but it might work if you mount your guy on a flying stand.


As for the tail on my Hive Crone (to represent Vektor Strike) which I just now realise I didn't really provide a clear shot of, although you can see it from the third photo in my last post, all the bits are actually from a Haruspex tongue believe it or not. This is what I had lying around and I felt looked really cool, you'll also have a bunch of cool spiky/Tyranidfleshy bits left over from it. I can't really do much further explanation than that, if you have the pieces you'll be able to recognise what I did if you want to cut a tail up to emulate me, and I'm sure if you wanted to do it differently you could easily find multiple ways with all those bits http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/WARHAMMER-40K-BITS-TYRANID-EXOCRINE-HARUSPEX-HEAD-MOUTH-OF-HARUSPEX-/131174198098?pt=Games_US&hash=item1e8a976b52&_uhb=1 . I had them lying around from my Exocrine kit as I imagine a lot of others do.

On the back of the Harpy, I just carved out the inside of the saddle with a modelling knife and flattened the edges, then painted it the standard colour of my tyranid fleshy bits and nobody would suspect a thing, just looks like fleshy protusions/tenctacle/membrane. I'm planning to mount the Venom Cannons from the Harpy kit on there (turned upside down) but I'm still waiting for them to arrive. The Harpy's Tongue is merely just the horn from one of the demons or whatever it is, inside the Terrorgheist kit.


The zombie dragon and the Terrorgheist each have two different spinal poses (as you can see by my two flyers), the rest however is pretty dynamic. The only things I really did different from the kit instructions was not add the fleshmuscle attachment bits that go between the wings and the side carapace, this allows for much more control over the wing posing, but you may not need it if you prefer to pose how the kit suggests, and I put the wings on opposite arms so the membrane curve is facing the same way that the rest our FMC wings do while in the flight position.


As for the basing, well, you probably have your own ideas in mind, if not, look up a basing tutorial lol, trust me you don't want my advice on it. I just scoured eBay for fishtank ornaments with sensible enough dimentions to fit on a flying stand LOL, sprayed them black, and then just drybrushed them a bunch of shades of grey and threw some PVA Glue + White flock on it. My best skill at modelling miniatures is creatively disguising the fact that I actually have very little skill, lol.




But anyway, as I said, it's all fairly simple stuff and mostly made capable by the awesome Terrorgheist model looking so naturally Nid-esque. I recommend anyone not impressed with the poorly conceived, bland, stupid looking Tyranid FMC kit released this year give this a go. It will also only cost you around about the same amount or less anyway. It will look great on a flying stand trust me, especially if you use Hive Tyrant legs, I just prefer to give my Flyers dynamic flying bases rather than the clear plastic spear of the heavens provided for flyer kits.

A little Hive Guard update from a game yesterday.

I played 2K vs Eldar and Necrons who both had 1K I brought 3 Hive guard as primary anti-tank. Thank god I threw in a Dakkafex as well.
Turn 1: only 1 hive guard makes it into range of anything (Anhillation barge AV13). 1 hit, 0 glances / pens
Turn 2: all three hive guard get back armor on a Ghost Ark (AV 11), 2 hits, 1 Pen. The pen took down the shield, so a dakkafex could fire at side armor 11. 4 Pens none saved by Jink.
Turn 3: all three hive guard fire at the Anhillation Barge (AV 13), 4 hits, 0 glances / pens.
Turn 4: no vehicles in range. Shot at some Necron warriors, 2 hits, 1 wounds, make the resurrections. Ended on 4 because store was closing.

Final comparison:
Hive Guard: 1 hull point
Dakkafex: 4 hull points, 4 Necron warriors (sweeping a unit of 20 with an attached lord).

Hive Guard who should (on paper) have a chance to kill 50% of a vehicle a turn managed instead averaged 8.3% of a vehicle per turn. They just aren't near as good in game as they are on paper.

It is the same issue as Zoenthrope's anti tank. With so few shots (not TL), the chance of them having 0 effect is much, much higher than a Dakkafex, Dakkaflyrant, or even a Crone. You can't use averages to judge their effectiveness because they are too likely to do nothing at all. They might work well 1 game, and then leaving you hanging the next.

tag8833 wrote:
A little Hive Guard update from a game yesterday.

I played 2K vs Eldar and Necrons who both had 1K I brought 3 Hive guard as primary anti-tank. Thank god I threw in a Dakkafex as well.
Turn 1: only 1 hive guard makes it into range of anything (Anhillation barge AV13). 1 hit, 0 glances / pens
Turn 2: all three hive guard get back armor on a Ghost Ark (AV 11), 2 hits, 1 Pen. The pen took down the shield, so a dakkafex could fire at side armor 11. 4 Pens none saved by Jink.
Turn 3: all three hive guard fire at the Anhillation Barge (AV 13), 4 hits, 0 glances / pens.
Turn 4: no vehicles in range. Shot at some Necron warriors, 2 hits, 1 wounds, make the resurrections. Ended on 4 because store was closing.

Final comparison:
Hive Guard: 1 hull point
Dakkafex: 4 hull points, 4 Necron warriors (sweeping a unit of 20 with an attached lord).

Hive Guard who should (on paper) have a chance to kill 50% of a vehicle a turn managed instead averaged 8.3% of a vehicle per turn. They just aren't near as good in game as they are on paper.

It is the same issue as Zoenthrope's anti tank. With so few shots (not TL), the chance of them having 0 effect is much, much higher than a Dakkafex, Dakkaflyrant, or even a Crone. You can't use averages to judge their effectiveness because they are too likely to do nothing at all. They might work well 1 game, and then leaving you hanging the next.

That's pretty much my experience with Hive Guard. Some games great, some games it's as if I didn't even have them. I want them to be a solid choice, but they just aren't. 6 BS3 shots (not twin-linked) is very unreliable, like you said. I do like being able to shoot through walls though

I tend to only take them when I am building for TAC with Swarmy.

I've seen that preferred enemy on them gives their odds much more favor...not to mention Onslaught.

tag8833 wrote:
A little Hive Guard update from a game yesterday.

I played 2K vs Eldar and Necrons who both had 1K I brought 3 Hive guard as primary anti-tank. Thank god I threw in a Dakkafex as well.
Turn 1: only 1 hive guard makes it into range of anything (Anhillation barge AV13). 1 hit, 0 glances / pens
Turn 2: all three hive guard get back armor on a Ghost Ark (AV 11), 2 hits, 1 Pen. The pen took down the shield, so a dakkafex could fire at side armor 11. 4 Pens none saved by Jink.
Turn 3: all three hive guard fire at the Anhillation Barge (AV 13), 4 hits, 0 glances / pens.
Turn 4: no vehicles in range. Shot at some Necron warriors, 2 hits, 1 wounds, make the resurrections. Ended on 4 because store was closing.

Final comparison:
Hive Guard: 1 hull point
Dakkafex: 4 hull points, 4 Necron warriors (sweeping a unit of 20 with an attached lord).

Hive Guard who should (on paper) have a chance to kill 50% of a vehicle a turn managed instead averaged 8.3% of a vehicle per turn. They just aren't near as good in game as they are on paper.

It is the same issue as Zoenthrope's anti tank. With so few shots (not TL), the chance of them having 0 effect is much, much higher than a Dakkafex, Dakkaflyrant, or even a Crone. You can't use averages to judge their effectiveness because they are too likely to do nothing at all. They might work well 1 game, and then leaving you hanging the next.

Yeah, I've pretty consistently recommended replacing Hive Guard with Zoeys. Not because Zoeys replace the HG shooting, but because they can do useful things without providing any shooting. The fact that you save points is just icing on the cake.

But no need to read too much into one game though. I do agree with the basic principle, the more dice you roll, the more "average" the out comes ...

Law of Large Numbers...got to love it

What are your thoughts of Exocrine instead of 3 Hive Guards?

BS4 standing, 6x S7 Ap2? Against AV12 I think it's better than the Hive Guard.

*Lights a candle for Hive Guard's old BS4*

Exocrine is different. Mean for killing heavy infantry and light vehicles.

I like 1...2 exocrine max.

Ignoring jink though is a biggy.

 ductvader wrote:
Exocrine is different. Mean for killing heavy infantry and light vehicles.

I like 1...2 exocrine max.

Ignoring jink though is a biggy.

Agreed. Though, If I want an exocrine I always try to include the Living Artillery Node for twin-linked goodness.

Frozocrone wrote:


Nice, I hadn't realised you can fit in that many models at 500!! How well did the Zoanthropes perform with their Psychic Powers?

General question for all, are Harpy's worth taking if you take some Biovores? Are Hive Crones worth taking by themselves (I am running Two Flyrants and two units of Gargoyles, but can condense them to find room for another Crone).

Dominion was needed and the main reason I took them. At 500 points they make great synapse anchors with OOE acting as weak back up. Catalyst did well, the one Warp blast was effective killing 2 warriors (Will Be Back not with standing), the one Warp Lance was as normal useless. Horror had it's check passed. I got more powers used with just the 2 Zoanthrope than in more psycher heavy lists, averaging 4 a turn. I suspect this may be intended, 2 psychers get a lot of juice with 3-4 master levels and a d6, were as 4 or 5 even with ML2 are starting to get dice starved.

The Crone good make good AA cover for the tyrants doing ground attacks.

 ductvader wrote:
I tend to only take them when I am building for TAC with Swarmy.

I've seen that preferred enemy on them gives their odds much more favor...not to mention Onslaught.

Yep, I had Swarmy in that list. But I was giving out furious charge to Gargoyles and Gants because I was facing so many vehicles. Didn't roll Onslaught, which was a bummer.

Also preferred enemy isn't great because it just rerolls 1's to hit. Because rolling to glance a vehicle is not the same as rolling to wound. It is a minor boost, but a boost none-the-less.

 Iechine wrote:
*Lights a candle for Hive Guard's old BS4*

Goodbye Leviathan Rose.....

Is it just me or is it actually better for Biovores to miss with their spore mine launcher? I dunno if I'm reading it right, but it seems like if you score a "hit!" the unit hit only suffers a single strength 4 AP4 large blast, whereas if you scatter a little ways off you get the multiple spore mines, which can create a much stronger large blast explosion in the ensuing assault phase.

Nah, its better to hit and wipe off some firepower a turn earlier. Plus the mines are the easiest things in the game to kite. It is however a decent 2nd place prize if you will, good for mitigating wasted shots, the spores still have to be avoided and if you can force something with a heavy weapon to move, or your opponent to deal with it, it helps a wasted shot not be so much of a waste. It's better than nothing, but generally better to hit the desired target.

However, it might depend on the target, because sometimes the stronger blast might give better chance at wounding. Most times though, its best to hit. Not like you really have a choice however lol.

Speaking of which,

I can't find any rule that says the mines can't assault the turn they're created. They're not deep-striking or coming out of reserves in any way, so the rules for that wouldn't apply in this situation.

Is there any reason to assume that mines created by the launcher can't assault the turn they're made?

They still need to get through overwatch.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Speaking of which,

I can't find any rule that says the mines can't assault the turn they're created. They're not deep-striking or coming out of reserves in any way, so the rules for that wouldn't apply in this situation.

Is there any reason to assume that mines created by the launcher can't assault the turn they're made?

They can assault. However, they only do so at half charge distance (i.e. charge D6" instead of 2D6").





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:
They still need to get through overwatch.

That's not always a bad thing. Sometimes, better for the spores to eat Overwatch so that your carnifexes (or whatever) can assault safely.

That's how I've been playing it, yeah.

Overwatch is a thing, though in my experience it hasn't been a major problem. They're still hitting on 6's, etc, and since most people take Biovores in squads, they can only overwatch one of the spore-units, not considering vehicles and melee units.

I'm considering dumping the living artillery formation. It's a good formation, but with the points saved from the warriors and the exocrine, I can fit a second dakka Flyrant into my 1500 point list. Pinning and re-rolls to scatter are cool, but I'm not sure if my Biovores being more accurate is worth that second Flyrant.

That might be a wise cut then Blaxican. The second Flyrant is probably more important than the Exocrine+Warriors and Re-Rolls. However, I'd have to ask what else you have in your list. I'd probably try keep 2 Dakkafex, Flyrant, and Living Artillery as a base line and cutting the other stuff.

The list is

Dakka Flyrant
25xTermagaunts
25xTermagaunts
25xTermagaunts
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
3xZoanthropes
4xTyranid Warriors (1xVenom Cannon)
3xBiovores
Exocrine
2xDakka Carnifex

1500

A concern I have about dumping the formation is synapse. I'm not sure if the three Zoan's alone are enough to do the job, even with a gaunt-wall and venomthropes for support.

Well, hypothetically you would replace that Synapse with an even tankier Synapse in the form of the Flyrant.

On top of that,That being said, forcing your Flyrant to hang back some gangs may cost you where you need early aggression and Flyrant pays alot for that mobility.

Honestly, I'd drop 120 points of Termagants and 2 Zoanthropes. Bam, new Flyrant. Same amount of army Synapse as before + the Flyrants bubble too.

Multiple Zoanthropes in a squad are generally a bad investment, the only spell it matters for is Warp Blast/Lance, a notoriously unreliable investment.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Well, hypothetically you would replace that Synapse with an even tankier Synapse in the form of the Flyrant.

On top of that,That being said, forcing your Flyrant to hang back some gangs may cost you where you need early aggression and Flyrant pays alot for that mobility.

Honestly, I'd drop 120 points of Termagants and 2 Zoanthropes. Bam, new Flyrant. Same amount of army Synapse as before + the Flyrants bubble too.

Multiple Zoanthropes in a squad are generally a bad investment, the only spell it matters for is Warp Blast/Lance, a notoriously unreliable investment.

I agree with this advice 100%. I would also add that the 4th warrior doesn't really improve the list, so you could redistribute those points to keep some of your Termagants.

Its a good list at 1500 either in its original form or with the 2nd flyrant. The downside of the 2nd flyrant is that you will become a hard counter to many lists, and have the potential to frustrate opponents. Nobody is ever frustrated playing against 80 Gants because at the end of the game, even if you win 10 points to 0, he will have killed 60-70 Gants, and feel good about that.

Alright, I may be completely off my nut here, but I just don't see why people are taking crones over harpies with TL-Venom Cannons in 7th.

Against other aircraft, I see it but only just.

Crone gets 4 haywire, 3 hit, 2.5 glance, .5 chance of pen Still only enough to knock 3 HP off a flyer with some bad luck on the pen (assuming no jinking)

Against armour they are really not very good...

4 haywire attacks, 2 hit, usually you'll get 2 HP. not enough to kill a rhino even :(

take 2 of them and you blow up a rhino.

The flamer's not that great either.

Back in 6th when Vector Strike was D3 S8 attacks and you could land and then assault, i can see it. Now? Not so much.

Am I misplaying them? Am i missing something?

Thanks!

 king88mob wrote:
Alright, I may be completely off my nut here, but I just don't see why people are taking crones over harpies with TL-Venom Cannons in 7th.

Against other aircraft, I see it but only just.

Crone gets 4 haywire, 3 hit, 2.5 glance, .5 chance of pen Still only enough to knock 3 HP off a flyer with some bad luck on the pen (assuming no jinking)

Against armour they are really not very good...

4 haywire attacks, 2 hit, usually you'll get 2 HP. not enough to kill a rhino even :(

take 2 of them and you blow up a rhino.

The flamer's not that great either.

Back in 6th when Vector Strike was D3 S8 attacks and you could land and then assault, i can see it. Now? Not so much.

Am I misplaying them? Am i missing something?

Thanks!

Well I'm currently running one but I'm debating whether to replace it and field a Mawloc with Adrenal Glands as it took up the last 155 points in my list after all my Elites HQ and HS were filled up (can shift my HS to make room for a Mawloc).

The biggest nerf was Vector Strike, I completely agree with you there. It does have it's uses, it helps the Tyrants against Air units so they can choose to focus on ground units.

 king88mob wrote:
Alright, I may be completely off my nut here, but I just don't see why people are taking crones over harpies with TL-Venom Cannons in 7th.

Against other aircraft, I see it but only just.

Crone gets 4 haywire, 3 hit, 2.5 glance, .5 chance of pen Still only enough to knock 3 HP off a flyer with some bad luck on the pen (assuming no jinking)

Against armour they are really not very good...

4 haywire attacks, 2 hit, usually you'll get 2 HP. not enough to kill a rhino even :(

take 2 of them and you blow up a rhino.

The flamer's not that great either.

Back in 6th when Vector Strike was D3 S8 attacks and you could land and then assault, i can see it. Now? Not so much.

Am I misplaying them? Am i missing something?

Thanks!

Nope, I think that's pretty accurate. I said this the day 7th dropped and a bunch of people argued against it... just like what happened when I said the same thing about the Tervigon when our 6th ed codex dropped... people don't like letting go of old models, but the fact is, the Crone is a pretty big waste of points now. Not quite Tervigon tier, you need at least 2 and you can probably secure an early kill on some Heavy armour, while your Flyrants and Dakkafexes deal with light tranports. They are pretty much the next best unit when you're out of heavy support and HQ slots to be honest.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
That's how I've been playing it, yeah.

Overwatch is a thing, though in my experience it hasn't been a major problem. They're still hitting on 6's, etc, and since most people take Biovores in squads, they can only overwatch one of the spore-units, not considering vehicles and melee units.

I'm considering dumping the living artillery formation. It's a good formation, but with the points saved from the warriors and the exocrine, I can fit a second dakka Flyrant into my 1500 point list. Pinning and re-rolls to scatter are cool, but I'm not sure if my Biovores being more accurate is worth that second Flyrant.

You don't have to reroll if you scatter off though.

Just saying.

 Iechine wrote:
*Lights a candle for Hive Guard's old BS4*

BS nerf and a point increase on top - because, why?
I hope Centurions get that treatment in their next codex.

 N.I.B. wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
*Lights a candle for Hive Guard's old BS4*

BS nerf and a point increase on top - because, why?
I hope Centurions get that treatment in their next codex.

Me too!

Even the assault a Centurions - just so they know how it feels to have a gak unit further nerfed.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The list is

Dakka Flyrant
25xTermagaunts
25xTermagaunts
25xTermagaunts
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
3xZoanthropes
4xTyranid Warriors (1xVenom Cannon)
3xBiovores
Exocrine
2xDakka Carnifex

1500

A concern I have about dumping the formation is synapse. I'm not sure if the three Zoan's alone are enough to do the job, even with a gaunt-wall and venomthropes for support.

I concur with the previous advice, the 2nd flyrant is important, but I would rather lose
1 venom
1-3 zoans
X gaunts
1 warrior
(combine until you get 230-240 pts)

and keep the LAN


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 king88mob wrote:
Alright, I may be completely off my nut here, but I just don't see why people are taking crones over harpies with TL-Venom Cannons in 7th.

Against other aircraft, I see it but only just.

Crone gets 4 haywire, 3 hit, 2.5 glance, .5 chance of pen Still only enough to knock 3 HP off a flyer with some bad luck on the pen (assuming no jinking)

Against armour they are really not very good...

4 haywire attacks, 2 hit, usually you'll get 2 HP. not enough to kill a rhino even :(

take 2 of them and you blow up a rhino.

The flamer's not that great either.

Back in 6th when Vector Strike was D3 S8 attacks and you could land and then assault, i can see it. Now? Not so much.

Am I misplaying them? Am i missing something?

Thanks!

So, using your own logic....
Harpy will hit lets say 75% of the time, so glance/Pen .62 each turn. Meaning it will take 5 turns to kill that rhino... Why would you take a Harpy?? (besides as Skyblight tax)


You take a Crone for 2 reasons.
1) One of the best AA units in the game, between haywire missiles and D3 S8 Vstrikes....(No Jink!)
2) S6 AP4 flamer is made of win against xenos armies, and not bad against power armor grouped up. (Do you also hate TFexes?)

If you are taking Crones because of ground armor, you are doing it wrong

You take them to help your flyrants deal with other flyers, and to take out IG behind and ADL, or Lootas in cover, or pathfinders in ruins, or plaguebearers hiding on an objective, etc etc.

In 6E I would always take 2, and considered taking 3; now I will almost always take 1, but almost never take 2+. They are very good at what they do, but what they do is kind of niche; so often times there are not enough good targets for 2 of them.

 king88mob wrote:
Alright, I may be completely off my nut here, but I just don't see why people are taking crones over harpies with TL-Venom Cannons in 7th. [...] Back in 6th when Vector Strike was D3 S8 attacks and you could land and then assault, i can see it. Now? Not so much.

Am I misplaying them? Am i missing something?

The popularity of the Crone basically comes down to their being a bit more TAC than the Harpy. The Crone's weapon load-out covers a wide range of target types (importantly including ones that devourer-equipped MCs struggle against) while the Harpy is more specialized for fighting infantry and lighter vehicles (same preferred targets as devourers, though the HVC can potentially do something to higher AV if no better targets are available).

 SHUPPET wrote:

[...] people don't like letting go of old models, but the fact is, the Crone is a pretty big waste of points now.

I respectfully disagree, at least in a general sense. Crones are still one of the cheaper flyers in the game (especially as a dedicated AA flyer - see Nephilim Jetfighter or Crimson Hunter as examples) and are the second cheapest flying monstrous creature in the game after the Harpy. They do have some unit match-ups where they are now less than ideal (light mech being #1), but they will never be completely useless due to their diverse weapon load-out.

coredump wrote:
So, using your own logic....
Harpy will hit lets say 75% of the time, so glance/Pen .62 each turn. Meaning it will take 5 turns to kill that rhino... Why would you take a Harpy?? (besides as Skyblight tax)


You take a Crone for 2 reasons.
1) One of the best AA units in the game, between haywire missiles and D3 S8 Vstrikes....(No Jink!)
2) S6 AP4 flamer is made of win against xenos armies, and not bad against power armor grouped up. (Do you also hate TFexes?)

If you are taking Crones because of ground armor, you are doing it wrong

You take them to help your flyrants deal with other flyers, and to take out IG behind and ADL, or Lootas in cover, or pathfinders in ruins, or plaguebearers hiding on an objective, etc etc.

In 6E I would always take 2, and considered taking 3; now I will almost always take 1, but almost never take 2+. They are very good at what they do, but what they do is kind of niche; so often times there are not enough good targets for 2 of them.

Don't have the BRB handy but I thought the reason why we all say the Crone got nerfed hard was because vector strike dropped to only 1 attack rather than the D3.

A single crone dedicated to AA can be okay-ish because its shots become twin-linked and vector strike becomes D3. Anymore than one is a waste of points in my opinion. In my most competitive lists I don't bring any.

I think the crone and the harpy's best role is to saturate the field with FMCs in a Skyblight list. But I don't think it's useful to just take 1 or 2.

 Chaplain Sam wrote:
A single crone dedicated to AA can be okay-ish because its shots become twin-linked and vector strike becomes D3. Anymore than one is a waste of points in my opinion. In my most competitive lists I don't bring any.

I think the crone and the harpy's best role is to saturate the field with FMCs in a Skyblight list. But I don't think it's useful to just take 1 or 2.

I run 2 alongside 2 flyrants in many of my lists. It takes 2 to have a reasonable chance of killing a Land Raider (with support from a flyrant). Since 40% of all lists I face include at least one Land Raider, It is good to have Crones around to kill it. Otherwise they work about like a Tyrannofex. More mobility, less staying power, but they contribute to my Alpha strike in a way that Tyrannofexes don't. 2 Flyrants + 2 Crones, and I can easily kill a stalker or Hydra for 1st blood, making the skies safe for my FMCs.

I also see a ton of Rhinos and other dedicated transports. A Crone can strip one Hull point with Vector strike, and then use the flamer at a different target. They can do almost as much damage as a Dakkfex to a Wave serpent, and often convince the wave serpents to target them rather than my flyrants. The flamer is quite useful for hitting an infantry squad and a vehicle or two vehicles.

Tyrpak wrote:
What are your thoughts of Exocrine instead of 3 Hive Guards?

BS4 standing, 6x S7 Ap2? Against AV12 I think it's better than the Hive Guard.

The ability to explode light vehicles works wonders. My Exocrine has been a very reliable transport destroyer this year. It's also extremely flexible in what it can shoot, having the strength and AP to damage light to medium vehicles (and explode them), is devastating to enemy Monstrous Creatures, has the weight of fire to score the odd shot on a troublesome flier and of course decimates MEQ/TEQ. I am seriously tempted to replace the Biovores and Warriors in my LAN with a second Exocrine, maybe even a third. With Malanthrope support I think they would make an excellent anvil against which Skyblight can slam opponents.

Something like this?

Tyrant, wings, 2x Devourers, Egrubs (240)
Malanthrope (85)
Malanthrope (85)
10x Termagants (40)
10x Termagants (40)
10x Termagants (40)
Exocrine (170)
Exocrine (170)
Exocrine (170)

Skyblight
Tyrant, wings, 2x Devourers, Egrubs (240)
Crone (155)
Harpy, Venom Cannon (140)
Harpy, Venom Cannon (140)
10 Gargoyles (60)
10 Gargoyles (60)
10 Gargoyles (60)

This totals 1845, gives you ObjSec Gargoyles, decent psychic punch, great anti MEQ/TEQ, great mobility and a resilient walking plasma battery.

tag8833 wrote:
I run 2 alongside 2 flyrants in many of my lists. It takes 2 to have a reasonable chance of killing a Land Raider (with support from a flyrant). Since 40% of all lists I face include at least one Land Raider, It is good to have Crones around to kill it. Otherwise they work about like a Tyrannofex. More mobility, less staying power, but they contribute to my Alpha strike in a way that Tyrannofexes don't. 2 Flyrants + 2 Crones, and I can easily kill a stalker or Hydra for 1st blood, making the skies safe for my FMCs.

I also see a ton of Rhinos and other dedicated transports. A Crone can strip one Hull point with Vector strike, and then use the flamer at a different target. They can do almost as much damage as a Dakkfex to a Wave serpent, and often convince the wave serpents to target them rather than my flyrants. The flamer is quite useful for hitting an infantry squad and a vehicle or two vehicles.

I know LRs can be a pain for Nidz, but I don't think a Crone is the best tool to use against them. Those haywire missiles are way to unreliable against ground targets to be the deciding factor in choosing to take them. Their best role is AA and being mobile. I think anymore than one (unless your taking a Skyblight list) is inefficient. In my experience Crones just don't contribute enough to be worth taking them. Smart opponents just ignore them.

But what works for you in your meta may be different, keep doing your thing

After thinking about it overnight, I've decided to dump the 2nd flyrant, because it's a good point that double flyrants might just be a little too competitive. I'm already on thin-ice with my gaming group because of my Purple Rain list, which has been undefeated for a couple of months now and has been the target of more than a few passive-aggressive mutterings about OP invisibility. Part of why I'm jumping in with 'nids again is to give people a break- so I think I'll leave the second Flyrant at home for now.

What I've done instead is removed two of the three zoanthropes, one warrior and a handful of gaunts and put in a third dakka-fex.

I'd originally considered just putting in a walking dakka-tyrant, but without wings I don't see how that would be worth the extra 45 points it'd cost to take it over a dakka-fex.

The loss of the two zoan's scares me a little, but I figure that the super-majority of vehicles I can't kill with the Flyrant's rear-armor shots or the dakka-fex's guns will be the kind of units that need to get close in order to do anything, meaning my fex's will make short work of 'em.

Korias1004 wrote:


Don't have the BRB handy but I thought the reason why we all say the Crone got nerfed hard was because vector strike dropped to only 1 attack rather than the D3.

1 hit against ground targets
D3 against zooming and Swooping targets.

Just looking at IA4. I see why the Dima was spec'ed as is. It was meant really as a Zone Mortalis/Cities of Death MC. In the tight spaces with limit movement options, getting caught in the same hallway as one will be bad.

barnowl wrote:
Just looking at IA4. I see why the Dima was spec'ed as is. It was meant really as a Zone Mortalis/Cities of Death MC. In the tight spaces with limit movement options, getting caught in the same hallway as one will be bad.

Except it base size makes it too big for Zone Mortalis

Eldercaveman wrote:

barnowl wrote:
Just looking at IA4. I see why the Dima was spec'ed as is. It was meant really as a Zone Mortalis/Cities of Death MC. In the tight spaces with limit movement options, getting caught in the same hallway as one will be bad.

Except it base size makes it too big for Zone Mortalis

The base is wider than 4"? Other than that I don't recall a base size limit on ZM.

Are Tervigons viable in a competitive sense as a support unit?

195 points seems like a bit too much for this edition..

Also what about ten Genestealers with a Broodlord for 200 points?

No to either. (Competitive sense)

Tervigon is too expensive for what it does, Genestealers are terrible in any sense.

Frozocrone wrote:
Are Tervigons viable in a competitive sense as a support unit?

195 points seems like a bit too much for this edition..

Also what about ten Genestealers with a Broodlord for 200 points?

Neither are particularly competitive choices.

I don't mind Tevigons at <1000 pts. The Terms add a decent percentage of points in Termagants to justify their massive points cost at lower levels IMO. Still far from auto-take. Anything above 1000 and they are really really bad.

Genestealers rely on numbers and support. Fixing a couple of them into a list just gives you an overpriced easy to kill target. They can work in numbers tho, imo - alot of people don't like attempting to absorb this preferring to rule them out as crap, but with the right support and enough numbers to make a difference, they are one of the better CC units in the game. Broodlords aren't terrible, but often you are struggling to make the points for enough Stealers and they just can't be justified for the tank and damage they take away from a unit.

I've seen this a few times in regards to units that need the right support to be any good... Maybe ive just glazed over where this was explained but could you give me an idea of what sort of support would be needed to make a blob of genestealers work at, say, 1500 and 1850? I've got 80 of 'em and would love to at least dust a few off and get table time

Venomthropes and alternative (or difficult) target choices for your opponents. Even supported, you'd have to accept that your 80 genestealers are points that could be spent on better units.

I disagree completely, Genestealers are our hardest hitting CC units for the points beside the Dima, except unlike the Dima they have Infiltrate to help secure second turn assault. Often enough they are the best unit on the field and you wish you'd brought a few more in the games where the support is less relevant.

The main support they need IMO is something to deal with their lack of frags. Living Artillery for a bunch of pinning Blasts are nice, Stranglethorn Cannon Harpys are nice, especially if you glide them the turn before the stealers assault, and assault with them to force I1 on your opponents units. You don't want to be striking last win Stealers (en masse as well), especially since they have I6 for a reason. Numerous ways to do this, including spammed Broodlords for the Horror (I like this one least as it's least reliable, does however throw your list out the least and Broodlords come with benefits of their own), and any combination of Pinning Weaponry/powers spurred on by the Deathleaper Assassin Brood formation which gives the -1 to all enemy units Pinning rolls while providing nice assault support wherever you may need it on the map.

The other thing is obviously Venomthrope. Stealers don't need Synapse however but a squad of Shrikes or Warriors behind them can also be nice, if you leave them just out of Synapse range and GtG, it's quite easy to claim a 2+ army wide save in your opponents first turn of shooting! and moving the Synapse unit up the field gives them all fearless and allows them to move again. Just don't lose your Synapse I take one Flyrant as my HQ for this purpose, Swoop him up from backfield, still leaving him behind the Stealers, but T6 Flying 3+ with a mink cover save (possibly bonused by a Venom) is a hard Synapse to move p, especially when it's still 12" behind your Stealers. You need a HQ anyway, you cannot however afford two.

I've experimented a lot with Stealers. A lot of support is viable, just dn 't take less than 40 of them or it's a wasted investment ~_~ they are a glass cannon who need the numbers to ensure they do can do enough! otherwise a bit of firepower cuts down their offensive potential far too quickly. 1850 I'd say.

Cambonimachine wrote:
I've seen this a few times in regards to units that need the right support to be any good... Maybe ive just glazed over where this was explained but could you give me an idea of what sort of support would be needed to make a blob of genestealers work at, say, 1500 and 1850? I've got 80 of 'em and would love to at least dust a few off and get table time

The short answer...Shrouded, and Pinning. anything to allow you to arrive in CC more or less intact. The "goofiest" thing I've done (a trick I use constantly) is give them a screen of gaunts. Let the Hormies eat the overwatch, then join the combat with the Stealers, that way they arrive intact, and fight at their own iniative.

But sadly, there is really no "good" way to use them.

Problem with relying on a screen of units to take the iniative penalty, as I've seen mentioned before, is that you want to be aiming to assault as quickly as possible, that turn 2 assault through infiltrate is pretty important with Stealers. The screen does nothing for your initiative there, Same issue with CC Flyrant, someone mentioned this as their way to get in into combat at max Iniative without frags, I never got around to responding but its generally a bad idea. Take advantage of it where possible, and a Horm screen is a good idea for granting cover to your Stealers, however it's not to be relied on for a frags alternative or else you are nerfing your army before you even put models on the table.

Pinning is good. Living Artillery is the very best pinning weaponry in the game that I can think of for any army.

pinecone77 wrote:

Cambonimachine wrote:
I've seen this a few times in regards to units that need the right support to be any good... Maybe ive just glazed over where this was explained but could you give me an idea of what sort of support would be needed to make a blob of genestealers work at, say, 1500 and 1850? I've got 80 of 'em and would love to at least dust a few off and get table time

The short answer...Shrouded, and Pinning. anything to allow you to arrive in CC more or less intact. The "goofiest" thing I've done (a trick I use constantly) is give them a screen of gaunts. Let the Hormies eat the overwatch, then join the combat with the Stealers, that way they arrive intact, and fight at their own iniative.

But sadly, there is really no "good" way to use them.

TAG's Genestealer Tactica.

Firstly, and this is important. Genestealers suck. They are overcosted by 1/2 and lack the mobility options of Shrikes and Raveners (who have a similar killing power). Even Hormagants are faster. They lack the survivability of a house fly, and they need support to be effective. There are very, very few scenarios where they would make a better choice than Shrikes or Raveners in an army. Or even Hormagants.

However, there are ways to use them and win some games. Here are 10 suggestions to help you pull this off.
1) Don't take upgrades. Genestealers are too expensive already, and upgrades just make them more so. Quantity over Quality here.
1A) that includes a broodlord. It is always better to take more genestealers than a broodlord. Don't be impressed with his pinning ability. Most things genestealers want to assault can't be pinned. If it can be pinned (i.e. Necrons) it still needs to fail a pinning test at -2, and that just isn't going to happen often. It will work for you once in 5 games, and anything that inconsistent is not worth it.
2) Run them in large squads. 15 is a good number. Never less than 10. This helps with support as well.
3) Support them. There are two ways to do so.
3A) Malanthropes. To be useful at all, Genestealers need shrouded. To be effective they need preferred enemy. The Malanthrope can help with both. It can also tank wounds on its 3+, and eat challenges. If Genestealers could take a Malanthrope instead of a brood lord, they would be a very good unit. I think 2 Malanthropes are best if you are running Genestealers.
3B) Venom + Swarmlord. Swarmlord can give Genestealers furious charge, preferred enemy, and potentially Feel No Pain. That is a ton of support. If only it didn't come in such an expensive package.
4) Don't outflank them. It may seem like you can outflank them as a way to offset their abysmal mobility. However, if you do so, the might not come in turn 2, and they can't start seriously contributing until turn 3 or 4. It is a costly unit to not have contribute for 1/2 of the game.
5) Do Infiltrate them. Unless you are facing drop pods, or are confident you opponent will put something in range for a turn 1 charge, you want these genestealers at midfield asap. However there are some tricks.
5A) Focus fire is not a part of the 7th edition rulebook. Abuse this. Infiltrate the Genestealers to midfield making sure that as many as possible are in ruins, and that those models are closer to the enemy than the models out of ruins.
5B) Remember the support. Congaline the genestealers back to your deployment zone to make sure they get Shrouded from a venom or malan. If you do this, the 1st few genestealers get a 2+ cover save.
5C) Fear Flamers. If you enemy has flamers in their army you want to infiltrate somewhere that the flamers can't get to you on turn 1.
6) Distract your opponent. Remember that the second someone wants to kill a mob of genestealers, they all drop dead instantly. Give them something else that they want to kill. Flyrants can sometimes do this. Gargoyles with better mobility can seem scarier. Lictors can infiltrate, and you can talk up their leathality. Deathleaper is usefule here.
7) Gargoyles. Genestealers are bad at being overwatched. That means you've got to get something to them ASAP to help them eat overwatch. Gargoyles are that thing. Also use the gargoyles to screen genestealers whenever possible. Hormagants can work this way, but are not as good as gargoyles.
7A) Sometimes you can use gants or gargoyles to bring more units into a combat. Because combat results are all added together, you might be able to do enough wounds with your genestealers to sweep a couple units at a time. If not, once in a while you can use this trick to keep the genestealers in combat on your opponent's turn.
8) Multi-Assault. Genestealers suffer from a similar problem to the Dima. In the current age of min sized squads, they can kill those squads too effectively, and not stay locked in combat so that they can survive opponent's shooting. However, Genestealers have a solution to this that Dima's don't. With many models, they can multi assault. A good choice is to multi-assault them into a Rhino or other vehicle, and also into a unit that they can stay locked with. Try to put as many attacks in the first round against the vehicle so that you don't wipe out the other unit. You can always kill them on your opponent's turn.
9) Don't take them against opponents who ignore cover Without a cover save they are dead. Wave serpent spam, Tau are genestealer kryptonite.
10) Take something else as well. Even if you follow all of these steps, and get lucky in the game, your genestealers are probably only good for 1 big assault. That means you need something else in your army which can mop up the rest of your opponent's forces. Once your genestealers get below 5, drop them back to an objective. They are done.

We aren't going to see Genestealers at top table any time soon, but if you follow these suggestions you can use them to help you win games.

Most your advice is pretty good, but I fear you're slipping back into the exact same mistake you made last time you commented on Stealers... You did the maths, you saw that they out damage many dedicated CC units in combat... I don't think you had Shrikes on that list but I don't see how they out damage Stealers in CC even with a dual melee load out...

However you are probably right that massed Shrikes might be better all round because of their durability and less reliance on support. I don't have the models to test it lol I mean we've all got 50 stealers laying around, who can say the same for shrikes

 SHUPPET wrote:
Most your advice is pretty good, but I fear you're slipping back into the exact same mistake you made last time you commented on Stealers... You did the maths, you saw that they out damage many dedicated CC units in combat... I don't think you had Shrikes on that list but I don't see how they out damage Stealers in CC even with a dual melee load out...

However you are probably right that massed Shrikes might be better all round because of their durability and less reliance on support. I don't have the models to test it lol I mean we've all got 50 stealers laying around, who can say the same for shrikes

Shrikes weren't on the list but Raveners were. Genestealers slightly more damage per point. Raveners had a much, much higher survivability per point. Shrikes are essentially the same as Raveners with more options and 1 less initiative. I'll look up the exact numbers if you want.

As I said when I posted the math. Just because Genestealers do slightly higher damage per point than a Ravener doesn't make them better. Greater mobility on raveners is gigantic. Also the rate at which ravener/Shrike damage potential declines is much, much, much slower than Genestealers. In fact if you look back to the post where I did all of the math I commented on the fact that Genestealers had the worst mobility options of anything on the list.

I have a feeling that if you ran them extensively in games you would see what I'm talking about. Genestealers are good for one charge. They kill something, and then are themselves killed. Raveners on the other hand can pull off multiple charges per game while preserving their unit integrity. Also, Raveners / Shrikes are better at multi-assaulting because 1) Overwatch is less threatening, 2) The charge bonus is less impactful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To put it into a real life scenario. 6 Raveners with Rending claws and 15 Genestealers both cost 210 points.

If they both Charge a unit of 10 Tac Marines with no upgrades:
Marines fire 20 Overwatch shots. 3.33 hits. 1.66 hits. I'll round it to 2 for future calculations.

So 2 Genestealers go down to overwatch, and 1 Ravener takes 2 wounds to overwatch but doesn't die.

Now they are in. Both have higher initiative than space marines. Genestealers do 39 Attacks while Raveners only do 30 Attacks. The Genestealers kill 7.2 marines (Rounding down to 7). The Raveners kill 5.56 Marines (also rounding down to 5).

The marines hit back. They Kill 1 more genestealer, and put a wound on a Full wound Ravener. Assuming they don't break or they run, and we catch them, the next round of combat will look like this.

Genestealers do 24 Attacks. Raveners do 24 Attack <- as you can see despite killing more marines in round 1, they are no long any killier than Raveners for round 2. They both kill 4.4 marines meaning both units have statistically eliminated that Tactical Marines.

So they charge another squad of 10 Tac marine. It looks like this.
On the charge both units take 2 wounds from overwatch, both units do 30 attacks. Both units kill 5.56 marines. Both unit lose 1 wound.
Next round. Genestealers do 18 Attacks. Raveners do 24 Attacks Genestealers kill 3.33 marines (aka there is statistically 1 left.) Raveners statistically kill the rest of them.
At this point there are only 9 Genestealers, but there are still 6 Raveners (2 with 1 wound, 2 with 2 wounds, 2 with 3 wounds).

Because of their multi-wound nature Raveners have much more staying power, and potential to continue contributing to the game in a way that Genestealers do not. That, coupled with their grossly superior mobility, and Raveners make a much more effective assault unit. There are exceptions, for instance assaulting Walkers, but the exceptions are rare and not sufficient to base list building decisions on unless you are list tailoring to a specific opponent.

Thanks!

Scy Talons give an extra attack, if taking a larger brood, you can sprinkle in some scy talons to give it more punch for not many points.

You can also go to ground for the Sv boost, and then use synapse next turn to allow the charge.

The points you put into ScyTals are better put into more genestealers, for more offense and defense to the unit

 SHUPPET wrote:
The points you put into ScyTals are better put into more genestealers, for more offense and defense to the unit

Very correct. Genestealers don't need more attacks, they need more wounds. It costs 14 points to add 1 wound and 2-3 attacks (charge). Meanwhile it cost 8-12 points to add 2-3 attacks. So, for the cost of roughly a gant, you get the same increase in attacks, but also get an extra wound. That is the better way to go.

In many ways, I wonder if there wasn't a plan to make Genestealers 2 wounds each. That would make their points cost make sense.

They would be fucktons better balanced at 2 wounds each.

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
The points you put into ScyTals are better put into more genestealers, for more offense and defense to the unit

Very correct. Genestealers don't need more attacks, they need more wounds. It costs 14 points to add 1 wound and 2-3 attacks (charge). Meanwhile it cost 8-12 points to add 2-3 attacks. So, for the cost of roughly a gant, you get the same increase in attacks, but also get an extra wound. That is the better way to go.

In many ways, I wonder if there wasn't a plan to make Genestealers 2 wounds each. That would make their points cost make sense.

I would probably die in joy even as the rest of the world realized that something had gone horribly wrong.

Out of curiosity, what do you think of multi-CAD "stealer shocks?"

Basic gist being a pair of tervigons for HQs, multiple units of Genestealers (some small for back field scoring) for the compulsory troops, and the rest being Gargoyles and some Shrikes with a minor fortification in the back field with something sitting on a comms relay. Turn one will be some minor pushing, while you throw some gargoyles up to early screen and push and then deep strike in several more full brood on top of the enemy on turn 2, for some very reliable assault options?

Why would you take multiple CAD's?

Just take one CAD and the MSU genestealer formation (manufactorum I believe).


You can always opt to run something like:

Flyrant x2
5 strong genestealers x5
2 large squads of gargs/w toxin
Genestealer formation with 5 squads of 5 genestealers
2 malenthrope
2 squads of stock carnifex

This would be a very scary list to deal with. A gunline army would be mowing down the formation genestealers first 2 turns and then the rest of your army would be all over him. It has AA, Anti-AV, and Anti-infantry all at once while also having a large number of scoring units and bodies for board control.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
The points you put into ScyTals are better put into more genestealers, for more offense and defense to the unit

Very correct. Genestealers don't need more attacks, they need more wounds. It costs 14 points to add 1 wound and 2-3 attacks (charge). Meanwhile it cost 8-12 points to add 2-3 attacks. So, for the cost of roughly a gant, you get the same increase in attacks, but also get an extra wound. That is the better way to go.

In many ways, I wonder if there wasn't a plan to make Genestealers 2 wounds each. That would make their points cost make sense.

I would probably die in joy even as the rest of the world realized that something had gone horribly wrong.

Out of curiosity, what do you think of multi-CAD "stealer shocks?"

Basic gist being a pair of tervigons for HQs, multiple units of Genestealers (some small for back field scoring) for the compulsory troops, and the rest being Gargoyles and some Shrikes with a minor fortification in the back field with something sitting on a comms relay. Turn one will be some minor pushing, while you throw some gargoyles up to early screen and push and then deep strike in several more full brood on top of the enemy on turn 2, for some very reliable assault options?

I think that is not a very good list. It includes Tervigons who are overcosted, and underpowed, not very threatening and slow to contribute. Are you planning to deep strike Gargoyles? They don't shoot much, and they are fast enough that they can start on the board and guarantee a turn 3 charge, so there is no point to deep strike them unless you are playing skyblight. It is never going to make sense taking min squads of stealers as objective scorers when we have rippers.

Overall, I think it violates several of the key suggestions for running genestealers effectively.

tag8833 wrote:

6) Distract your opponent. Remember that the second someone wants to kill a mob of genestealers, they all drop dead instantly. Give them something else that they want to kill. Flyrants can sometimes do this. Gargoyles with better mobility can seem scarier. Lictors can infiltrate, and you can talk up their leathality. Deathleaper is usefule here.
10) Take something else as well. Even if you follow all of these steps, and get lucky in the game, your genestealers are probably only good for 1 big assault. That means you need something else in your army which can mop up the rest of your opponent's forces. Once your genestealers get below 5, drop them back to an objective. They are done.

If you have enough Shrikes and Gargoyles, you might satisfy #6, but you would need a ton of Shrikes to satisfy #10.

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
The points you put into ScyTals are better put into more genestealers, for more offense and defense to the unit

Very correct. Genestealers don't need more attacks, they need more wounds. It costs 14 points to add 1 wound and 2-3 attacks (charge). Meanwhile it cost 8-12 points to add 2-3 attacks. So, for the cost of roughly a gant, you get the same increase in attacks, but also get an extra wound. That is the better way to go.

In many ways, I wonder if there wasn't a plan to make Genestealers 2 wounds each. That would make their points cost make sense.

Word, there are lots of ways to make Stealers worth taking...add something in, or lower the cost. Both of those arguments boil down to "over priced as is" I'd like to see the price drop, but making them 2W would also put them on the "worth looking at" list.

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
The points you put into ScyTals are better put into more genestealers, for more offense and defense to the unit

Very correct. Genestealers don't need more attacks, they need more wounds. It costs 14 points to add 1 wound and 2-3 attacks (charge). Meanwhile it cost 8-12 points to add 2-3 attacks. So, for the cost of roughly a gant, you get the same increase in attacks, but also get an extra wound. That is the better way to go.

In many ways, I wonder if there wasn't a plan to make Genestealers 2 wounds each. That would make their points cost make sense.

That is not an accurate comparison.

For 14pts you get 2 more attacks and 1 more wound, and *sometimes* a third attack.
For 8 points you get 2 more attacks
For 12 points you always get 3 more attacks

Or think of it this way, for 28% more points, you get *50%* more attacks normally, and 33% more attacks on the charge.
For 'roughly' a gant? A stealer is only 14pts, so the difference of 6pts is a big deal....

I would never put scy tals on every stealer, just like I would never put devourers on every gaunt. But a brood of 15 stealers, with 5-8 scy tals in the back..... The 'cheap' stealers will be the ones to die to overwatch, and the first to die CC; the Scystealers will be the ones left alive on subsequent rounds, which is when their *50%* increase in attacks will be a big help.

coredump wrote:

Spoiler:

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
The points you put into ScyTals are better put into more genestealers, for more offense and defense to the unit

Very correct. Genestealers don't need more attacks, they need more wounds. It costs 14 points to add 1 wound and 2-3 attacks (charge). Meanwhile it cost 8-12 points to add 2-3 attacks. So, for the cost of roughly a gant, you get the same increase in attacks, but also get an extra wound. That is the better way to go.

In many ways, I wonder if there wasn't a plan to make Genestealers 2 wounds each. That would make their points cost make sense.

That is not an accurate comparison.

For 14pts you get 2 more attacks and 1 more wound, and *sometimes* a third attack.
For 8 points you get 2 more attacks
For 12 points you always get 3 more attacks

Or think of it this way, for 28% more points, you get *50%* more attacks normally, and 33% more attacks on the charge.
For 'roughly' a gant? A stealer is only 14pts, so the difference of 6pts is a big deal....

I would never put scy tals on every stealer, just like I would never put devourers on every gaunt. But a brood of 15 stealers, with 5-8 scy tals in the back..... The 'cheap' stealers will be the ones to die to overwatch, and the first to die CC; the Scystealers will be the ones left alive on subsequent rounds, which is when their *50%* increase in attacks will be a big help.

So let us take the best case scenario for your argument. 8 Points for 2 Scything Talons and thus 2 attacks. VS. 14 points for another genestealer, and thus 2 attacks.

If you had the option for an upgrade that was "Additional Biomass" that gave the Genestealer one more wound (with EW), and that upgrade cost you 6 points, would you take it. I would. If your answer is "No", then you probably want to take Scything Talons on some/all of your Genestealers.

It seems the conventional wisdom is that Tervigon's are bad, but is it possible to build them in a way to make them less sucky? I ask this as someone just starting their Tyranid army trying to figure out what to buy, knowing the answer will probably be no.

I get the arguments against them. They're expensive, their shooting ability is laughable, their psychic ability worse, and I pretty much agree. I also understand why dumping more points into an already over-costed model seems counter intuitive, but bear with me.

What if you added Adrenal Glands, Crushing Claws, and maybe even Electroshock Grubs to it? It seems that doing so would make this thing a pretty effective vehicle hunter. The glands gives it mobility and increases it's strength on the charge. The claws add another point of strength and give it Armourbane. That's 2-3 hits that will glance AV14 armor and penetrate everything else reliably. Electroshock Grubs are optional, but if you do take them you'll be able to tear through pretty much any HP3 AV13 vehicle in a single turn and, with some luck, a LAnd Raider equivalent as well.

Thoughts?

The answer is definitely no, and anybody who tells you otherwise is likely either as new as you or someone who refuses to accept that it HAS been nerfed into unplayability from last edition. Don't listen to anyone telling you to play them.

However, if y have to use the model for whatever reason, low points games are where he will do slightly better. Also outflanking him with eGrubs in an aggressive list might POSSIBLY make you not so disappointed in the fact that you brought him and not another Mawloc. But it's unlikely. and this is assuming barebones+template btw! not some crappy close combat kitted Terv


The problem with crushing claws/AG is that he is already the most cost effective target in the dex to shoot at. Giving him those upgrades makes him the cost of a Flyrant without wings. Every wound they take off him is worth 40 points, that's almost double as much as a Mawloc for the same survivability and likely more damage. It's highly unlikely he'll make it to combat, but if he does it will be turn 3 at best since he has zero mobility, but often never at all.

He's one of the worse models in the dex, at lower points games his versatility and free points are more relevant and he isn't quite so squishy so I sometimes play him at <1000. Other than that he's p bad.

Gazra wrote:
It seems the conventional wisdom is that Tervigon's are bad, but is it possible to build them in a way to make them less sucky? I ask this as someone just starting their Tyranid army trying to figure out what to buy, knowing the answer will probably be no.

I get the arguments against them. They're expensive, their shooting ability is laughable, their psychic ability worse, and I pretty much agree. I also understand why dumping more points into an already over-costed model seems counter intuitive, but bear with me.

What if you added Adrenal Glands, Crushing Claws, and maybe even Electroshock Grubs to it? It seems that doing so would make this thing a pretty effective vehicle hunter. The glands gives it mobility and increases it's strength on the charge. The claws add another point of strength and give it Armourbane. That's 2-3 hits that will glance AV14 armor and penetrate everything else reliably. Electroshock Grubs are optional, but if you do take them you'll be able to tear through pretty much any HP3 AV13 vehicle in a single turn and, with some luck, a LAnd Raider equivalent as well.

Thoughts?

The tervigon is not all that bad in many ways, but as people have pointed out, it's expensive for what it does. Ask yourself what kind of army list you want to play, and the tervigon's place in the list. For example, I like playing aggressive lists that get up in your face as quickly as possible, relegating the tervigon to backfield support. For that role, a single unit of warriors is half the cost and just as durable against anything that isn't strength 8+. In cover, they're even MORE durable against non-strength 8 (9 wounds to 6). The other killer cost for a tervigon is that it means you can take one less flying hive tyrant. If you make it a troops selection (which seems nice) then you have to pay the gant tax, effectively making the troop tervigon even more expensive. One up-side is that you can get away with a single tervigon and 30 Gants as backfield objective support due to the tervigon spawning 2-3 troop choices most games (which RAW are Objective Secured, though there are some that debate that oddly). Even so, that's still a minimum of 315 points for 2 troop units (plus the freebie units), which leaves you less for the rest of the army. And what you get for those points is just not that impressive.

I feel like the best way to run Tervigons would be en masse (like 3 plus 3 max size gant squads). You have 3 incredibly durable troop choices, 3 huge troop units, and you can spawn an average of ....48 extra bodies or so. I actually should figure out the real number. If there is a 44 % chance of failure for each roll, with 10.5 Gants spawned per roll, how many Gants are spawned on average before the Mamma Jammas are exhausted? Point being, it's in that neighborhood and that's nearly 140 bodies (all OS) plus the surprisingly durable Tervigons for the low low cost of 1045 points. That might seem like a lot, but it's not much worse than the space marine OS drop pod spam lists. It's more durable but has less firepower. It's not going to win tournaments, but I guarantee 90 percent of lists you'll run into simply don't have enough anti-horde to deal with it. The issue with that is that it's BORING. Many people in my meta have stopped playing marine drop pod armies because they find them extremely linear and boring, but this takes that to a new extreme. And it's just a lot of models to move. But it's probably the best way to field Tervigons, sadly

You're kind of making me want to run 2 CAD's.

Walkrant
Tervi
Tervi
30 Gants
30 Gants
Venomthrope

The Swarmlord, 1 Guard
Tervi
Tervi
30 Gants
30 Gants
Venomthrope

1845 points. Swarmlord can give a bonus to a relevant squad, 120 gants can clog up the treads somewhat, and 4 tervigons should provide more bodies for the grinder when needed. Everything is fearless all the time, and now I need to go paint the 80 gaunts I have waiting for paint because this needs to be played.

luke1705 wrote:

Gazra wrote:
It seems the conventional wisdom is that Tervigon's are bad, but is it possible to build them in a way to make them less sucky? I ask this as someone just starting their Tyranid army trying to figure out what to buy, knowing the answer will probably be no.

I get the arguments against them. They're expensive, their shooting ability is laughable, their psychic ability worse, and I pretty much agree. I also understand why dumping more points into an already over-costed model seems counter intuitive, but bear with me.

What if you added Adrenal Glands, Crushing Claws, and maybe even Electroshock Grubs to it? It seems that doing so would make this thing a pretty effective vehicle hunter. The glands gives it mobility and increases it's strength on the charge. The claws add another point of strength and give it Armourbane. That's 2-3 hits that will glance AV14 armor and penetrate everything else reliably. Electroshock Grubs are optional, but if you do take them you'll be able to tear through pretty much any HP3 AV13 vehicle in a single turn and, with some luck, a LAnd Raider equivalent as well.

Thoughts?

The tervigon is not all that bad in many ways, but as people have pointed out, it's expensive for what it does. Ask yourself what kind of army list you want to play, and the tervigon's place in the list. For example, I like playing aggressive lists that get up in your face as quickly as possible, relegating the tervigon to backfield support. For that role, a single unit of warriors is half the cost and just as durable against anything that isn't strength 8+. In cover, they're even MORE durable against non-strength 8 (9 wounds to 6). The other killer cost for a tervigon is that it means you can take one less flying hive tyrant. If you make it a troops selection (which seems nice) then you have to pay the gant tax, effectively making the troop tervigon even more expensive. One up-side is that you can get away with a single tervigon and 30 Gants as backfield objective support due to the tervigon spawning 2-3 troop choices most games (which RAW are Objective Secured, though there are some that debate that oddly). Even so, that's still a minimum of 315 points for 2 troop units (plus the freebie units), which leaves you less for the rest of the army. And what you get for those points is just not that impressive.

I feel like the best way to run Tervigons would be en masse (like 3 plus 3 max size gant squads). You have 3 incredibly durable troop choices, 3 huge troop units, and you can spawn an average of ....48 extra bodies or so. I actually should figure out the real number. If there is a 44 % chance of failure for each roll, with 10.5 Gants spawned per roll, how many Gants are spawned on average before the Mamma Jammas are exhausted? Point being, it's in that neighborhood and that's nearly 140 bodies (all OS) plus the surprisingly durable Tervigons for the low low cost of 1045 points. That might seem like a lot, but it's not much worse than the space marine OS drop pod spam lists. It's more durable but has less firepower. It's not going to win tournaments, but I guarantee 90 percent of lists you'll run into simply don't have enough anti-horde to deal with it. The issue with that is that it's BORING. Many people in my meta have stopped playing marine drop pod armies because they find them extremely linear and boring, but this takes that to a new extreme. And it's just a lot of models to move. But it's probably the best way to field Tervigons, sadly

They are also equally durable to S8+ unless it's in the blast form. Wounds both of them 2+, 6 Warriors w/ dual Cannons still trade slightly better against LasCannon shots and the like than Tervigons do. That is how overpriced Tervigons are.



The problem with massed Tervigons is that you are also paying for mass Gants, at least 400-500 points of your army, inevitably suffering massive losses to the size of your army, which is already subpar In Terms of damage and defence due to the nature of massing the over costed Tervigon in the first place. You might at the end of the game have enough Gants to claim some objectives. I'd like to see the theory crafting put aside for a second and someone actually taking 4 Tervs vs a competent opponent who focuses the Tervs first, and see exactly what you are left with by turn 5. Every single one that goes down is nuking the field. That will happen 4 times. Then all they have to do is clean up the remaining Gants squads. I think this is just doomed to fail, every single Tervigon troop you take is 325 points that could have been spent on better things. Much more better things. Taking more just compounds this until you are effectively bringing a 1000 pt army to an 1500 pt game.

 SHUPPET wrote:
The answer is definitely no, and anybody who tells you otherwise is likely either as new as you or someone who refuses to accept that it HAS been nerfed into unplayability from last edition. Don't listen to anyone telling you to play them.

However, if y have to use the model for whatever reason, low points games are where he will do slightly better. Also outflanking him with eGrubs in an aggressive list might POSSIBLY make you not so disappointed in the fact that you brought him and not another Mawloc. But it's unlikely. and this is assuming barebones+template btw! not some crappy close combat kitted Terv


The problem with crushing claws/AG is that he is already the most cost effective target in the dex to shoot at. Giving him those upgrades makes him the cost of a Flyrant without wings. Every wound they take off him is worth 40 points, that's almost double as much as a Mawloc for the same survivability and likely more damage. It's highly unlikely he'll make it to combat, but if he does it will be turn 3 at best since he has zero mobility, but often never at all.

He's one of the worse models in the dex, at lower points games his versatility and free points are more relevant and he isn't quite so squishy so I sometimes play him at <1000. Other than that he's p bad.

I understand that the high point cost means that every wound is going to hurt more, but are opponents going to prioritize him as a target over things like Carnifexes, Tyrannofexes, Exocrines, Venomthropes, and Zoanthropes? Again, I'm coming from a lack of experience with Tyranids (but not 40k), but I'm just curious about targeting priority since pretty much all of or MCs have the same stats in regards to S/T and saves.

Gazra wrote:
I understand that the high point cost means that every wound is going to hurt more, but are opponents going to prioritize him as a target over things like Carnifexes, Tyrannofexes, Exocrines, Venomthropes, and Zoanthropes? Again, I'm coming from a lack of experience with Tyranids (but not 40k), but I'm just curious about targeting priority since pretty much all of or MCs have the same stats in regards to S/T and saves.

Short answer. Yes. If they kill the tervigon they are also greatly reducing the effect of Tfexes, CFexes, and Venoms. It also deals with Termagants easily. The Tervigon is so expensive that he dominates you backfield support, and simplifies your opponents target priority significantly.

If you want to run a Tervigon, start with the following, and build your list out from there.

Tyrant (Wings. 2 TL-Devourer, E.Grubs, Hive Commander)

Malanthrope (warriors + venom could fill this role but not as well).

Tervigon (E. Grubs, Adrenal Glands)
Termagants (10 Spinefists, 20 Devourers).

At game time, after you see your opponent's lists, decide if it would be better to outflank a Tervigon or Termagants.

It works because the Tervigon isn't critical to your backfield, and you keep the tervigon away from the gants. Also, it helps with the Tervigon's mobility problems. It doesn't work, because the Terivgon is significantly too expensive for what it contributes. 220 points + 20 for Hive commander. If you are lucky it will pop one vehicle, assault one squad of infantry, and the score an objective. If can almost never make its points back.

Generally if you are thinking about taking a Tervigon in a list that you want to be good, stop, take a second to consider, and then take a Malanthrope instead.

Here is a mini batrep for my game against Triptide with Farsight bomb.
SPOILER.......

My List


My Opponent's list was: (might be wrong on one upgrade or two, but really close).



Pregame: I had never faced R'varna before. It is great against Tyranids. Shoots 2 Large blasts works like this:
Gaunt 1 Hit per model S6 AP4
Gargoyle (bulky) 2 Hit per model S7 AP4
Malanthrope (Very Bulky) 3 Hit per model S8 AP4
Flyrant (MC) 3 Hit per model S8 AP4

Mission: We played BAO Mission #4 (not good for 'nids with the emphasis on Kill points, and the Hammer and anvil Deployment). It was night fighting.

Psychic powers. I had Paroxism, Warp Blast, Psychic Shriek, and Onslaught. The only one that ever mattered was paroxism which took his Burstide down to BS:1 on turn 2.

Deployment: He put 3 Broadsides in his backfield on the left flank. R'varna on his backfield objective, and a Riptide flanking on either side. His skyray was on the left flank. I Deployed my bastion on my left flank at the edge of my deployment. My non-warlord flyrant, My Crone, gants, Exocrine, and Biovores behind the barricades. A Malanthrope inside, and Warriors on top. I rolled master of ambush, and so pushed My warlord flyrant, Gargoyle, other Malanthrope, and Dakkafex to midfield into terrain. Everything had a 2+ cover save.

Tau Turn 1:

Tyranid Turn 1:

Tau Turn 2:

Tyranid Turn 2:
Tau turn 3:

Tyranids turn 3:

Tau turn 4:

Tyranids turn 4:

Tau Turn 5:

Tyranids Turn 5:


Post Game thoughts:

tag8833 wrote:

So let us take the best case scenario for your argument. 8 Points for 2 Scything Talons and thus 2 attacks. VS. 14 points for another genestealer, and thus 2 attacks.

If you had the option for an upgrade that was "Additional Biomass" that gave the Genestealer one more wound (with EW), and that upgrade cost you 6 points, would you take it. I would. If your answer is "No", then you probably want to take Scything Talons on some/all of your Genestealers.

Do you feel the same way about Gaunts? That people should never put devourers on them? The math works out almost exactly the same for both situations. (8 for offense + 6 for wounds compared to 4 for offense and 4 for wounds)

I'm not saying scytals are a no-brainer... just that they are a much cheaper way of boosting the offense instead of adding bodies. Assuming you have some vanilla stealers to absorb the initial casualties, it can give you more offense for less points than you would get otherwise.

You have 15 stealers at 210pts. You can either spend 28pts and get 2 more stealers (for 4/6 more attacks), or spend the same pointss and get 7 sets of ST for 7/7 extra attacks. This advantage holds even if half of the brood has been killed.

In fact, by the time your choice is better, the brood has taken 12 casualties; at that point, your remaining 5 stealers get 10 attacks, and my remaining 3 only get 9 attacks. But I rarely make decisions that are only better after my unit is almost wiped out.

coredump wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

So let us take the best case scenario for your argument. 8 Points for 2 Scything Talons and thus 2 attacks. VS. 14 points for another genestealer, and thus 2 attacks.

If you had the option for an upgrade that was "Additional Biomass" that gave the Genestealer one more wound (with EW), and that upgrade cost you 6 points, would you take it. I would. If your answer is "No", then you probably want to take Scything Talons on some/all of your Genestealers.

Do you feel the same way about Gaunts? That people should never put devourers on them? The math works out almost exactly the same for both situations. (8 for offense + 6 for wounds compared to 4 for offense and 4 for wounds)

I'm not saying scytals are a no-brainer... just that they are a much cheaper way of boosting the offense instead of adding bodies. Assuming you have some vanilla stealers to absorb the initial casualties, it can give you more offense for less points than you would get otherwise.

You have 15 stealers at 210pts. You can either spend 28pts and get 2 more stealers (for 4/6 more attacks), or spend the same pointss and get 7 sets of ST for 7/7 extra attacks. This advantage holds even if half of the brood has been killed.

In fact, by the time your choice is better, the brood has taken 12 casualties; at that point, your remaining 5 stealers get 10 attacks, and my remaining 3 only get 9 attacks. But I rarely make decisions that are only better after my unit is almost wiped out.

Termagants are a much different situation for many reasons. Here are a few.
1) Termagants aren't overcosted
2) Termagant do their damage via shooting, and thus don't take as many casualties.
3) Termagants are a much, much lower target priority.
4) A devourer gant does 3 times the damage output of a fleshgant at 1.5 times the range.
5) Fleshborer gants usually don't do enough attacks to do the job without upgrading.
6) The offense / survivability ratio on fleshgants is skew toward survivability not offense, so adding offense to balance that out is a good thing.

But, as I said, you could choose to take Scy Tals on your Genestealers if you want. It just makes me wonder, what is in your meta where Genestealers aren't doing enough attacks already? Because to me, their problem isn't their offense. They win combat when they make it there, unless they are facing superior cc dedicated units like Dark Eldar beast packs, Beasts of Nurgle, Thunder Puppies, or invisible deathstars. Once I sent 14 Genestealers in on Mephiston and Corbolo, and that didn't work out well for me, but more often than not they are winning combats too quickly making them vulnerable to shooting on my opponent's phase. There really isn't anything in my meta where I feel like "Gee... I wish I had more attacks on my genestealers."

For the cost of the model again Devourers triple your damage output instead of doubling it. These combos nicely with outflanking and allows you to deliver a bucketload of cheap shots the turn it arrives. It's no comparison to Scytals imo

tag8833 wrote:

TAG's Genestealer Tactica.

Spoiler:

Firstly, and this is important. Genestealers suck. They are overcosted by 1/2 and lack the mobility options of Shrikes and Raveners (who have a similar killing power). Even Hormagants are faster. They lack the survivability of a house fly, and they need support to be effective. There are very, very few scenarios where they would make a better choice than Shrikes or Raveners in an army. Or even Hormagants.

However, there are ways to use them and win some games. Here are 10 suggestions to help you pull this off.
1) Don't take upgrades. Genestealers are too expensive already, and upgrades just make them more so. Quantity over Quality here.
1A) that includes a broodlord. It is always better to take more genestealers than a broodlord. Don't be impressed with his pinning ability. Most things genestealers want to assault can't be pinned. If it can be pinned (i.e. Necrons) it still needs to fail a pinning test at -2, and that just isn't going to happen often. It will work for you once in 5 games, and anything that inconsistent is not worth it.
2) Run them in large squads. 15 is a good number. Never less than 10. This helps with support as well.
3) Support them. There are two ways to do so.
3A) Malanthropes. To be useful at all, Genestealers need shrouded. To be effective they need preferred enemy. The Malanthrope can help with both. It can also tank wounds on its 3+, and eat challenges. If Genestealers could take a Malanthrope instead of a brood lord, they would be a very good unit. I think 2 Malanthropes are best if you are running Genestealers.
3B) Venom + Swarmlord. Swarmlord can give Genestealers furious charge, preferred enemy, and potentially Feel No Pain. That is a ton of support. If only it didn't come in such an expensive package.
4) Don't outflank them. It may seem like you can outflank them as a way to offset their abysmal mobility. However, if you do so, the might not come in turn 2, and they can't start seriously contributing until turn 3 or 4. It is a costly unit to not have contribute for 1/2 of the game.
5) Do Infiltrate them. Unless you are facing drop pods, or are confident you opponent will put something in range for a turn 1 charge, you want these genestealers at midfield asap. However there are some tricks.
5A) Focus fire is not a part of the 7th edition rulebook. Abuse this. Infiltrate the Genestealers to midfield making sure that as many as possible are in ruins, and that those models are closer to the enemy than the models out of ruins.
5B) Remember the support. Congaline the genestealers back to your deployment zone to make sure they get Shrouded from a venom or malan. If you do this, the 1st few genestealers get a 2+ cover save.
5C) Fear Flamers. If you enemy has flamers in their army you want to infiltrate somewhere that the flamers can't get to you on turn 1.
6) Distract your opponent. Remember that the second someone wants to kill a mob of genestealers, they all drop dead instantly. Give them something else that they want to kill. Flyrants can sometimes do this. Gargoyles with better mobility can seem scarier. Lictors can infiltrate, and you can talk up their leathality. Deathleaper is usefule here.
7) Gargoyles. Genestealers are bad at being overwatched. That means you've got to get something to them ASAP to help them eat overwatch. Gargoyles are that thing. Also use the gargoyles to screen genestealers whenever possible. Hormagants can work this way, but are not as good as gargoyles.
7A) Sometimes you can use gants or gargoyles to bring more units into a combat. Because combat results are all added together, you might be able to do enough wounds with your genestealers to sweep a couple units at a time. If not, once in a while you can use this trick to keep the genestealers in combat on your opponent's turn.
8) Multi-Assault. Genestealers suffer from a similar problem to the Dima. In the current age of min sized squads, they can kill those squads too effectively, and not stay locked in combat so that they can survive opponent's shooting. However, Genestealers have a solution to this that Dima's don't. With many models, they can multi assault. A good choice is to multi-assault them into a Rhino or other vehicle, and also into a unit that they can stay locked with. Try to put as many attacks in the first round against the vehicle so that you don't wipe out the other unit. You can always kill them on your opponent's turn.
9) Don't take them against opponents who ignore cover Without a cover save they are dead. Wave serpent spam, Tau are genestealer kryptonite.
10) Take something else as well. Even if you follow all of these steps, and get lucky in the game, your genestealers are probably only good for 1 big assault. That means you need something else in your army which can mop up the rest of your opponent's forces. Once your genestealers get below 5, drop them back to an objective. They are done.

We aren't going to see Genestealers at top table any time soon, but if you follow these suggestions you can use them to help you win games.

Great tactica, tag.

I will put a link to this tactica from the opening post on p.1.

Scytals are clearly more cost efficient for damage, and allow you to mitigate one of the biggest issues with stealers. That being it's difficult to get more than a few into combat, as they generally get the absolute gak blasted out of them. If you were going to use a 20 man squad of Genestealers, I'd reccomend taking 5 or so with the talons, as you're not likely to get more than 5-10 into combat nowadays.

Hell, in 5th with 4+/4+, stealershock rarely managed to get more than 8-10 in on armies that didn't (foolishly) try to throw down with them.

Regardless, genestealers are borderline useless in 7th edition. They've lost pretty much everything that made them worth using, and cost a ton.

tag8833 wrote:
Here is a mini batrep for my game against Triptide with Farsight bomb.
SPOILER.......

Spoiler:

I won Big. He conceded turn 4, I would have tabled him turn 5.

My List

Spoiler:

CAD:
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E.Grubs)
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E.Grubs)

Malanthrope
Malanthrope

10 Hormagants
10 Termagants

20 Gargoyles
Crone

Mawloc (AG) <- I normally run 2 crones, but wanted to try out a substitution
Carnifex (2 TL-Devourers)

Bastion (Void Shield, 4 Barricades)

Living Artillery Node:
Exocrine
3 Biovores
3 Warriors (BS)

My Opponent's list was: (might be wrong on one upgrade or two, but really close).

Spoiler:

Commander Farsight.
Buffmander aka Commander (CNC, MSSS, PEN, VRT, Drone Controller) + 2 Gun Drones

Riptide (IA)
Riptide (HBC, Skyfire)
4 Crisis Suites (2 Plasma each, Target Lock) + 7 Gun Drones.

10 Kroot + 1 Kroot Hound
10 Kroot

Skyray (SMS, Disruption Pod)
R'varna (FNP, Skyfire)
3 Broadsides (HYMP, 2 Target locks)

Pregame: I had never faced R'varna before. It is great against Tyranids. Shoots 2 Large blasts works like this:
Gaunt 1 Hit per model S6 AP4
Gargoyle (bulky) 2 Hit per model S7 AP4
Malanthrope (Very Bulky) 3 Hit per model S8 AP4
Flyrant (MC) 3 Hit per model S8 AP4

Mission: We played BAO Mission #4 (not good for 'nids with the emphasis on Kill points, and the Hammer and anvil Deployment). It was night fighting.

Psychic powers. I had Paroxism, Warp Blast, Psychic Shriek, and Onslaught. The only one that ever mattered was paroxism which took his Burstide down to BS:1 on turn 2.

Deployment: He put 3 Broadsides in his backfield on the left flank. R'varna on his backfield objective, and a Riptide flanking on either side. His skyray was on the left flank. I Deployed my bastion on my left flank at the edge of my deployment. My non-warlord flyrant, My Crone, gants, Exocrine, and Biovores behind the barricades. A Malanthrope inside, and Warriors on top. I rolled master of ambush, and so pushed My warlord flyrant, Gargoyle, other Malanthrope, and Dakkafex to midfield into terrain. Everything had a 2+ cover save.

Tau Turn 1:

Spoiler:

He won first turn, and opened up, The skyray put marker lights on my midcourt Malanthrope, and he fired R'varna at it (Failed a nova and took a wound, it the nova had succeed it would have been twice as many shots) getting my flyrant twice, My Dakkafex once, and 2 Gargoyles twice. 6 wounds on the Malan, I failed 3 saves, took a wound on the flyrant, and lost some gargoyles. Then the broadsides lit up the Malanthrope and killed it dead with SMS (no need for HYMPs). FIRST BLOOD. The rest of his army fired into my warlord. I thought it was going down but once it was at 1 wound, it made 8 saves.

Tyranid Turn 1:

Spoiler:

I didn't have a ton of options. Lots of stuff out of range. I move my gargoyles foward, but was 2" away from scoring a Maelstrom object so I ran them 6", and put them in a line right up against his entire backfield. My Biovores hit the broadsides 12 Hits, 8 wounds, 8 Saves (no pinning check). My Flyrants flew toward the broadsides. Lit them up. Managed to kill 1 which forced him to take a leadership, but he passed, I put 1 wound on another. My Crone fired 2 haywires at the Skyray. Both hit, but his 2+ Jink save (Jink + Nightfighting + Disruption pod) took care of them. My Dakkafex puts a wound on the ion tide. I ran everything else, disembarking the Malanthrope from the bastion.

Tau Turn 2:

Spoiler:

all of his reserves came in. Kroot outflanked on the right side of the board out of range of everything, but my TGauants, they killed 5. Farsight bomb arrived and Annihilated my Exocrine, and 2 of my Biovores, then got an 11 inch assault move to get it on terrain away from my Mawloc. Everything else fired at my one wound flyrant, However, all 3 riptides failed to Nova Charge and took a wound. The Skyray letting go all 6 of its missiles (snap shooting because of Jink). The burstide also Shot at BS:1 because of paroxisms. Between the 2 they only made me take 2 saves, and I passed both. R'varna scattered off with the first shot, and back onto itself on the 2nd. Lol. It failed a save and took another wound. Everything else got me to take another 2-3 saves, but I made them all. It was epic.

Tyranid Turn 2:

Spoiler:

Mawloc doesn't comes in. It finished them off. My incredible unkillable warlord vector strikes off the board (Taking one wound off of a broadside). Crone vector strikes the Skyray, rolls a 1. Flyrant fires Warp lance at Skyray, rolls a 1. Flyrant and crone light up the Broadsides doing 1 more wound leaving 2 broadsides with 1 wound each. Ugh!. But the key thing going on is that my Gargoyles line up 1 inch away from all 3 Riptides, and my Dakkafex moves into charge range of one of them. (3 inch move through cover). Dakkafex strips another wound off, leaving the iontide with 2 wounds. The Gargoyles fire, because hey why not? My dakkafex fails its 8 inch charge, but my Gargoyles easily make their multi-assault. They actually stip a wound off the ion tide (taking it down to 1), and gloriously tarpitting most of his army. In my backfield, things look grim, but in his desire to spread farsight bomb out he gave me some options, I move my 5 Termagants, 10 Hormagants, 1 Biovore, Malanthrope, and 3 Warriors all to charge the bomb. Took a wound off Farsight, and killed a drone in shooting. I send in the Termagants first to eat overwatch. They die. Then the Biovore, Malanthrope, warriors and Hormagants all make the charge. I'm charging over my barricades, so I'm initiative one, but I do challenge with my Malanthrope, and Farsight accepts. Farsight does no wounds to me (T 5 is big), and I take another wound from him with my poison 2+. Buffmander piles in but can't make base. The suites and drones pile in and kill a hormagant. My warriors and Biovore manage to kill the one suite who did make base, and them my Hormagants kill some drones. He lost combat by 4. Rolled an 11, and ran, but it was not to be. I swept him. HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Tau turn 3:

Spoiler:

He doesn't have much to shoot. But what he does have kills my Crone. In the assault phase one riptide kills the only 2 gargoyles in base, and can't pile in, so he gets free.

Tyranids turn 3:

Spoiler:

My Mawloc comes in, and finishes the broadsides. My Flyrant comes on and kills a bunch of Kroot sending them running the entire length of the board. My other flyrant lands behind the Skyray (a mistake). He takes 2 hull points off of it, stunning it. My Dakkafex moves toward the one wound ion tide. Fails to kill it in shooting, but does finish it in assault leaving my Dakkafex with only 1 wound. My backfield moves toward the Kroot. My Gargoyles do nothing but blind R'varna, and lose 3 gargoyles, but because I wasn't paying enough attention they are out of synapse, and get swept.

Tau turn 4:

Spoiler:

Kroot do nothing. R'Varna kills the Dakkafex and Burstide takes a wound off the flyrant. At this point with little left, he concedes. If he hadn't, I would have assaulted his burstide with my flyrant, R'varna with my Mawloc, and killed his Kroot. I would have tabled him by the end of 5.

Tyranids turn 4:

Spoiler:

Game over

Tau Turn 5:

Spoiler:

Game over

Tyranids Turn 5:

Spoiler:

Game over

Post Game thoughts:

Spoiler:

I rolled really, really well, and he rolled really, really poorly. This isn't the way this matchup is going to go most of the time. I still feel like my list doesn't have good answers to Tau gunline, although farsight bomb is less of a problem. Gargoyles are freaking good!

Thanks for sharing. For some of our bad batchups, a little luck goes a long ways.


I've added a link to your report in my opening post on p. 1 as well.

Anyone want to offer up what they think a good theoretical cost for stealers would be?

(Disregarding broody completely as he adds too many variables)

 jy2 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

TAG's Genestealer Tactica.

Spoiler:

Firstly, and this is important. Genestealers suck. They are overcosted by 1/2 and lack the mobility options of Shrikes and Raveners (who have a similar killing power). Even Hormagants are faster. They lack the survivability of a house fly, and they need support to be effective. There are very, very few scenarios where they would make a better choice than Shrikes or Raveners in an army. Or even Hormagants.

However, there are ways to use them and win some games. Here are 10 suggestions to help you pull this off.
1) Don't take upgrades. Genestealers are too expensive already, and upgrades just make them more so. Quantity over Quality here.
1A) that includes a broodlord. It is always better to take more genestealers than a broodlord. Don't be impressed with his pinning ability. Most things genestealers want to assault can't be pinned. If it can be pinned (i.e. Necrons) it still needs to fail a pinning test at -2, and that just isn't going to happen often. It will work for you once in 5 games, and anything that inconsistent is not worth it.
2) Run them in large squads. 15 is a good number. Never less than 10. This helps with support as well.
3) Support them. There are two ways to do so.
3A) Malanthropes. To be useful at all, Genestealers need shrouded. To be effective they need preferred enemy. The Malanthrope can help with both. It can also tank wounds on its 3+, and eat challenges. If Genestealers could take a Malanthrope instead of a brood lord, they would be a very good unit. I think 2 Malanthropes are best if you are running Genestealers.
3B) Venom + Swarmlord. Swarmlord can give Genestealers furious charge, preferred enemy, and potentially Feel No Pain. That is a ton of support. If only it didn't come in such an expensive package.
4) Don't outflank them. It may seem like you can outflank them as a way to offset their abysmal mobility. However, if you do so, the might not come in turn 2, and they can't start seriously contributing until turn 3 or 4. It is a costly unit to not have contribute for 1/2 of the game.
5) Do Infiltrate them. Unless you are facing drop pods, or are confident you opponent will put something in range for a turn 1 charge, you want these genestealers at midfield asap. However there are some tricks.
5A) Focus fire is not a part of the 7th edition rulebook. Abuse this. Infiltrate the Genestealers to midfield making sure that as many as possible are in ruins, and that those models are closer to the enemy than the models out of ruins.
5B) Remember the support. Congaline the genestealers back to your deployment zone to make sure they get Shrouded from a venom or malan. If you do this, the 1st few genestealers get a 2+ cover save.
5C) Fear Flamers. If you enemy has flamers in their army you want to infiltrate somewhere that the flamers can't get to you on turn 1.
6) Distract your opponent. Remember that the second someone wants to kill a mob of genestealers, they all drop dead instantly. Give them something else that they want to kill. Flyrants can sometimes do this. Gargoyles with better mobility can seem scarier. Lictors can infiltrate, and you can talk up their leathality. Deathleaper is usefule here.
7) Gargoyles. Genestealers are bad at being overwatched. That means you've got to get something to them ASAP to help them eat overwatch. Gargoyles are that thing. Also use the gargoyles to screen genestealers whenever possible. Hormagants can work this way, but are not as good as gargoyles.
7A) Sometimes you can use gants or gargoyles to bring more units into a combat. Because combat results are all added together, you might be able to do enough wounds with your genestealers to sweep a couple units at a time. If not, once in a while you can use this trick to keep the genestealers in combat on your opponent's turn.
8) Multi-Assault. Genestealers suffer from a similar problem to the Dima. In the current age of min sized squads, they can kill those squads too effectively, and not stay locked in combat so that they can survive opponent's shooting. However, Genestealers have a solution to this that Dima's don't. With many models, they can multi assault. A good choice is to multi-assault them into a Rhino or other vehicle, and also into a unit that they can stay locked with. Try to put as many attacks in the first round against the vehicle so that you don't wipe out the other unit. You can always kill them on your opponent's turn.
9) Don't take them against opponents who ignore cover Without a cover save they are dead. Wave serpent spam, Tau are genestealer kryptonite.
10) Take something else as well. Even if you follow all of these steps, and get lucky in the game, your genestealers are probably only good for 1 big assault. That means you need something else in your army which can mop up the rest of your opponent's forces. Once your genestealers get below 5, drop them back to an objective. They are done.

We aren't going to see Genestealers at top table any time soon, but if you follow these suggestions you can use them to help you win games.

Great tactica, tag.

I will put a link to this tactica from the opening post on p.1.

Thanks. I'm looking forward to a Dimacharon Tactica once someone has the opportunity to figure it out fully.

I was going to run your Flying Circus + Dima list against the Triptide tau list, but he specifically ask for my TAC list. He's going to tweak the list, and then I let loose the Dimas.

 ductvader wrote:
Anyone want to offer up what they think a good theoretical cost for stealers would be?

(Disregarding broody completely as he adds too many variables)

Currently, I'd say about 10-pts at most. They should be comparable to daemonettes in terms of costs.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

tag8833 wrote:

Thanks. I'm looking forward to a Dimacharon Tactica once someone has the opportunity to figure it out fully.

I was going to run your Flying Circus + Dima list against the Triptide tau list, but he specifically ask for my TAC list. He's going to tweak the list, and then I let loose the Dimas.

Here's a review of the Dimachaeron by Geoff "InControl" Robinson:


http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/09/14/dimachaeron-review/


BTW, here's a couple pics of Geoff's Dimachaeron, painted by Frontline Gaming.

 ductvader wrote:
Anyone want to offer up what they think a good theoretical cost for stealers would be?

(Disregarding broody completely as he adds too many variables)

I posted a thread over in general , I suggested 11 per...(Oh and being able to purchase Flesh Hooks )

tag8833 wrote:

Termagants are a much different situation for many reasons. Here are a few.
1) Termagants aren't overcosted
2) Termagant do their damage via shooting, and thus don't take as many casualties.
3) Termagants are a much, much lower target priority.
4) A devourer gant does 3 times the damage output of a fleshgant at 1.5 times the range.
5) Fleshborer gants usually don't do enough attacks to do the job without upgrading.
6) The offense / survivability ratio on fleshgants is skew toward survivability not offense, so adding offense to balance that out is a good thing.

1) Then don't take stealers in the first place, Scy Tals are an easy way of getting more attacks that are costed *less* than standard attacks
2) What? Of course gaunts take casualties, thats why no one ever goes *all* devourers, in order to absorb some damage with the cheap gaunts. In fact, it is *easier* to damage the gaunts, since they are not getting locked into combat so everyone can shoot them.
3) Not once you give them devourers.... Go ahead and plop down 20-30 gaunts with devourers, see how 'low' they are prioritized...
4) For 4 points, you get 2 more attacks, for 8 points you get 2 more attacks and *2* more wounds.
So (roughly), for 50% of a stealer you can double its attacks, for 100% of a stealer you can double attacks and wounds.
For 100% of a gaunt you can triple its attacks, for 200% of a gaunt you can triple attacks and wounds. The ratios are *very* similar.
5) So get more fleshborer gaunts.... you get more damage *and* more wounds. Your tactica advises larger stealer broods... so obviously smaller stealer broods don't get the job done either.
6) T3 6+ save is skewed towards survivable? They are crap at killing, they are crap at surviving...

Do you *never* have stealers take more than one round to kill the enemy? Do you *never* multi-assault? (Your tactica suggests it, ST stealers are better at this)

Did you skip over the comparison I did? 17 stealers vs 15+7ST, which will do better? Yes my brood has fewer wounds, but it takes *12 dead* before it matters. Why are you basing decisions when the only improvement is after you lose 80% of the brood?

But, as I said, you could choose to take Scy Tals on your Genestealers if you want. It just makes me wonder, what is in your meta where Genestealers aren't doing enough attacks already?

More attacks lets you target more things, lets you multiassault more confidently, lets you still kill more when you taken casualties. Why would I *not* want to make them better? I lose almost nothing important in terms us survivability, and gain in attacks; what is not to like?

but more often than not they are winning combats too quickly making them vulnerable to shooting on my opponent's phase.

The Scytals don't add many attacks on the charge, They add more in subsequent rounds, so you are *not* more likely to be vulnerable, but you are more likely to kill them off in your opponents turn if you have more attacks.

There really isn't anything in my meta where I feel like "Gee... I wish I had more attacks on my genestealers."

Then take broods of 10, or 5.... you take 15 because you need enough attacks after some die on the way in. If you are getting there with more than enough attacks, take fewer models.

Look, both of us are calculating that some of these stealers are just bullet sponges... they will die on the way in, or in the first round or so of combat. The question is how to best outfit the remainder. If 5 are likely to be sponges.... you want to add 12 more, I want to add 10 more, but give 7 STs.
Lets say we lose those 5 on the way in/overwatch.... Your brood does 36 attacks, mine does 37 attacks.
In return they kill 3 more.
Next round your brood does 18 attacks, mine does 21.

Yes 2 wounds matter, but by the time those two wounds matter, the brood is almost destroyed. The extra attacks matter *all the time*. You choose to make a decimated brood better, I choose to make it better while its still big enough to actually fight.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
For the cost of the model again Devourers triple your damage output instead of doubling it. .... It's no comparison to Scytals imo

Then you are not comparing it correctly. The ratios are almost exactly the same.
The gaunts fare a bit better, but the stealer attacks get to be used twice a turn, and the gaunt attacks only once a turn.

I provided the actual comparison above.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gazra wrote:
It seems the conventional wisdom is that Tervigon's are bad, but is it possible to build them in a way to make them less sucky? I ask this as someone just starting their Tyranid army trying to figure out what to buy, knowing the answer will probably be no.

What if you added Adrenal Glands, Crushing Claws, and maybe even Electroshock Grubs to it? It seems that doing so would make this thing a pretty effective vehicle hunter.
Thoughts?

You have succeeded in making them 'less sucky'. But still not 'good'.

You are talking 235pts, I guess you can knock off 92pts for the 'free' gaunts, so now 143pts.

And what you have is a pretty resilient objective secured walking anti-tank melee unit. I would rather buy 20 gaunts and grab a devilfex. An almost as resilient, not OS, walking anti-tank melee unit, that can also shoot 12 S6 shots a turn.

The problem with your terv is its melee, and still slow. It should not be hard to keep vehicles away from it. If you want to run it, I would think about Hive Commander and Outflank it.

Now you can spawn gaunts in their backfield, and the Terv can deal with any vehicles they are keeping in back. Still not convinced it is a great idea, but I think it is getting closer.

coredump wrote:

Spoiler:

tag8833 wrote:

Termagants are a much different situation for many reasons. Here are a few.
1) Termagants aren't overcosted
2) Termagant do their damage via shooting, and thus don't take as many casualties.
3) Termagants are a much, much lower target priority.
4) A devourer gant does 3 times the damage output of a fleshgant at 1.5 times the range.
5) Fleshborer gants usually don't do enough attacks to do the job without upgrading.
6) The offense / survivability ratio on fleshgants is skew toward survivability not offense, so adding offense to balance that out is a good thing.

1) Then don't take stealers in the first place, Scy Tals are an easy way of getting more attacks that are costed *less* than standard attacks
2) What? Of course gaunts take casualties, thats why no one ever goes *all* devourers, in order to absorb some damage with the cheap gaunts. In fact, it is *easier* to damage the gaunts, since they are not getting locked into combat so everyone can shoot them.
3) Not once you give them devourers.... Go ahead and plop down 20-30 gaunts with devourers, see how 'low' they are prioritized...
4) For 4 points, you get 2 more attacks, for 8 points you get 2 more attacks and *2* more wounds.
So (roughly), for 50% of a stealer you can double its attacks, for 100% of a stealer you can double attacks and wounds.
For 100% of a gaunt you can triple its attacks, for 200% of a gaunt you can triple attacks and wounds. The ratios are *very* similar.
5) So get more fleshborer gaunts.... you get more damage *and* more wounds. Your tactica advises larger stealer broods... so obviously smaller stealer broods don't get the job done either.
6) T3 6+ save is skewed towards survivable? They are crap at killing, they are crap at surviving...

Do you *never* have stealers take more than one round to kill the enemy? Do you *never* multi-assault? (Your tactica suggests it, ST stealers are better at this)

Did you skip over the comparison I did? 17 stealers vs 15+7ST, which will do better? Yes my brood has fewer wounds, but it takes *12 dead* before it matters. Why are you basing decisions when the only improvement is after you lose 80% of the brood?

But, as I said, you could choose to take Scy Tals on your Genestealers if you want. It just makes me wonder, what is in your meta where Genestealers aren't doing enough attacks already?

More attacks lets you target more things, lets you multiassault more confidently, lets you still kill more when you taken casualties. Why would I *not* want to make them better? I lose almost nothing important in terms us survivability, and gain in attacks; what is not to like?

but more often than not they are winning combats too quickly making them vulnerable to shooting on my opponent's phase.

The Scytals don't add many attacks on the charge, They add more in subsequent rounds, so you are *not* more likely to be vulnerable, but you are more likely to kill them off in your opponents turn if you have more attacks.

There really isn't anything in my meta where I feel like "Gee... I wish I had more attacks on my genestealers."

Then take broods of 10, or 5.... you take 15 because you need enough attacks after some die on the way in. If you are getting there with more than enough attacks, take fewer models.

Look, both of us are calculating that some of these stealers are just bullet sponges... they will die on the way in, or in the first round or so of combat. The question is how to best outfit the remainder. If 5 are likely to be sponges.... you want to add 12 more, I want to add 10 more, but give 7 STs.
Lets say we lose those 5 on the way in/overwatch.... Your brood does 36 attacks, mine does 37 attacks.
In return they kill 3 more.
Next round your brood does 18 attacks, mine does 21.

Yes 2 wounds matter, but by the time those two wounds matter, the brood is almost destroyed. The extra attacks matter *all the time*. You choose to make a decimated brood better, I choose to make it better while its still big enough to actually fight.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
For the cost of the model again Devourers triple your damage output instead of doubling it. .... It's no comparison to Scytals imo

Then you are not comparing it correctly. The ratios are almost exactly the same.
The gaunts fare a bit better, but the stealer attacks get to be used twice a turn, and the gaunt attacks only once a turn.

I provided the actual comparison above.

Rather than address point by point each line, I would like to address 3 fundamental places I disagree.
1) Devourers vs. Scything Talons what is the better upgrade?

Extensive mathhammer follows:
The ratio of killing power to survivability with points cost factored in is screwed up in genestealers. It is worse than a squad of pure devil gants to begin with, and just get worse as you add any upgrades to them. I would propose that a squad of 50/50 Flesh/devil gants is about the ratio we want. 0.074. Anything that we can do to move genestealers back toward that ratio is probably a good thing, Otherwise we have a glass cannon that is an unreasonably high target priority. This ratio is even more important when you figure that genestealers have to take damage to apply that killing power.

2. My reason for preferring larger squads.
It doesn't have anything to do with killing power. It wasn't that I looked at 5 genestealers and said that doesn't do enough killing, I need more genestealers in there. The reason I prefer large squads is that is the only way to get them to apply that killing power. I feel this for several reasons
A) You've got to infiltrate the leading elements in the squad into terrain, and conga line back to a venom or Malan if you want them to survive alpha strikes. That means a fairly sizeable unit. 5 Genestealers don't conga line very far.
B) You lose Genestealers to overwatch. In order to get any genestealers in, you've got to have enough that you can afford to take some losses.
C) Multi-assault is the technique that allow Genestealers to not kill their way out of combat. Staying in combat is the safest place for them. In order to multi assault, the more models the better.

3. Killier Genestealers are not always better.
The more turns it takes a brood of genestealers to kill something the better. Close combat is where Genestealers should be. It protects them from shooting, and it is the one place where they outperform other tyranid options. It is easy to fall into this trap. I have a gamer who use to regularly tell me that Orks are great because one-on-one, a properly equipped warboss can beat most other generic HQ's in close combat. This is a clear fallacy. He is right that warbosses are pretty good in close combat, but you see more winning lists with Tau Commanders who are no-where near as good in close combat. Being killy does not win you games.

Devilgants can unload volume of fire the turn they arrive. At the very least they don't have to weather 2 shooting phases and overwatch before applying the Devourers.Not sure what the math is on ScyTals, but I wouldn't mind seeing it. Regardless, Stealers are already a glass cannon unit as is and more attacks should never be prioritized over more bodies.

To me, in general, more bodies > more upgrades.

Got my FW twin linked devourers in the mail for my two tyrants, Ill finally have my tyranids wrapped up and will do one massive group photo.

Awesome, Iechine. Can't wait to see!

Speaking of which, how many others use Fleshborer Hives as TL-Devs?

 SHUPPET wrote:
Speaking of which, how many others use Fleshborer Hives as TL-Devs?

I was. I just went through and remodeled everything with real Devourers.

ETA. I'm also closing in on completing my 'Nid collection. I assembled my Malanthropes tonight. I have 2 Malanthropes, A barbed Hierodule, and 10 more gargoyles to paint, and then I'll post a pick of my entire army.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Speaking of which, how many others use Fleshborer Hives as TL-Devs?

Most of the other Tyranid players at my group do, though I made my own using some spare Harpy gun arms from my Hive Crone.


All you need to do is cut off the tab that the gun barrels fit over and glue on a pair of devourer cones - one on the stump and the other where the "hose" from the gun barrels attaches with a bit of greenstuff to fill the gap. After that, just trim down the ammunition sacs to fit with the wings and it works lovely.

I did something similar with a stranglethorn cannon arm I had lying around and three gant devourers cut up and glued in place. I didn't even need green stuff really, it looked pretty good. I'm not paying stupid money for arms that should come with the kits in the first place.

So can anybody here tell me how area effects work in transports since I guess I'm blind and can't find the page that says anything in the Brb. The hierophant has an upgrade that will allow it to become a transport with the assault vehicle rules. A reference to page# in the rule book would be awesome thanks

deekthegreat wrote:
So can anybody here tell me how area effects work in transports since I guess I'm blind and can't find the page that says anything in the Brb. The hierophant has an upgrade that will allow it to become a transport with the assault vehicle rules. A reference to page# in the rule book would be awesome thanks

I don't have the page number memorized, but I do know the rule, paraphrased:

"For units embarked on a transport, any measurement will be conducted with respect to the hull of the vehicle"

This goes for embarking/disembarking, as well as the Venomthrope/Malanthrope shrouded effect, in addition to synapse if applicable. The issue is that the hierophant doesn't have a hull. So you can use any part of the model to measure. In addition, you would typically have a base for any unit that isn't a tank. Though the hierophant isn't supplied with a base, some people do build one. Personally, I find it to be non-thematic at best and clunky at worst. Forge world has thankfully understood this and stated (I can't recall where) that you may use the square that would connect the legs as it's "base" for purposes of measurement.

It gives one heck of a shrouded bubble, and synapse if you go the Malanthrope route. I really do want to try stealer shock though. Probably the only way to get them on the field :(

 Strat_N8 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Speaking of which, how many others use Fleshborer Hives as TL-Devs?

Most of the other Tyranid players at my group do, though I made my own using some spare Harpy gun arms from my Hive Crone.


All you need to do is cut off the tab that the gun barrels fit over and glue on a pair of devourer cones - one on the stump and the other where the "hose" from the gun barrels attaches with a bit of greenstuff to fill the gap. After that, just trim down the ammunition sacs to fit with the wings and it works lovely.

Nice conversion you've done there - now I have one fewer reason to avoid buying the Harpy kit! Curses!

If you like, check out the link in my signature for my TL-devourer method - I like the single gun/ammo tube look, so went with modified heavy venom cannons. I really like how all of us Tyranid players come up with our own spin on conversions for our armies, lots of good ideas floating about.

Wow tag, that is a lot of Math... unfortunately almost all of it misses the point of the issue. (Plus, you change how you determined percentages, to be consistent, devourers increase damage by 200%, not 300%)

Devourers triple (300%) the damage output of Termagants and also increase their range by 50%.
Scything Talons increase the damage output of Genestealers by 50% with no other benefit.

You skip over the fact that devourers increase offense to 200%, if you increase cost by *100%*
STals increase offense by 50%, but you only increase costs by 28%.

If you will notice, the ratio is about the same. Devourers are a *big* upgrade, and STs are a small upgrade, but they deliver almost the same improvement ratio.

100 points of each.
Fleshborer Gant: 2.08 Dead marines
Devourer Gant: 3.13 Dead marines
Base Stealers: 2.65 Dead marines
Scytal Stealer: 3.09 Dead marines
So a relative increase of killing power of 50.5% for gants, and 16.6% for Genestealers.

*Of Course* it looks like that. You are comparing a 100% cost upgrade to a 28% cost upgrade.... the gaunt upgrade had better deliver more results. But your logic is fatally flawed... and the math helps to show it.
First, is wounds. The gaunt brood has lost 50% of the wounds in the brood, while the Stealer brood has lost only 22% Your comparison ignores both the relative costs, and the inherrent disadvantages.
Second is a closer comparison. Lets say you could take ST multiple times, and the effects stacked.
100pts of
STx4 Stealers: 3.72 dead marines

Now you get a 42% increase of killing power... which according to your above logic (which still ignores the loss of wounds) is much better for the stealers, and almost as good as the gaunts. But.... Do you *really* think 30pt stealers are a good idea??

Overall, upgraded genestealers kill 1.3% less marines per point spent on them than Devourer Gants, While base genestealers kill 18.2% more marines than Fleshgants per point. Overall Genestealers are more killy, though this isn't a great comparison because it is shooting vs assault.

Again missing the point.... this is not a comparison between Gaunts vs Stealers. We all know stealers suck, the point is what is the best way to take stealers.... Of course devourer gaunts kill a lot more, they are one of our most 'killy' units per point. (but also one of the most fragile, and you still ignore the loss of resiliency to gain the offense)

So Devourer gants are more survivable than non-upgraded genestealers from a points to point comparison. Therefore, running pure Devourer gants is a better points investment than running Genestealers at all.

Okay, thats great.. so why write a tactica, and then do a bunch of math convincing people why stealers suck...??
Of course, your numbers also show that devourers are a much bigger resiliency hit than the STs are... but you skipped over that tiny piece of info.

I would propose that a squad of 50/50 Flesh/devil gants is about the ratio we want. 0.074.

Really? Why? How does that number become the 'goal'? And did you come up with that before or after you discovered it perfectly matched the point you were trying to make?
Are you basing this 'ratio we want' on anything beyond convenience?

Couple of reference points
Stealer .123
TS Stealer .123 (So its just as good to run TS stealers as stealers?
Devilfex .023 Wow... much worse than even plain gaunts. I suppose we should never run this unit anymore...??


But aside from ignoring the relative cost increases, and ignoring the drop in resiliency.... here is the biggest issue with your calculations: They are based on an entire brood being wiped out, or an entire brood attacking, and assuming the brood is homogeneous.

The *reason* mixed gaunt broods (or mixed stealer broods) work out, is because *some* will die, and we arrange for those to be the cheap ones. And *some* will be able to attack, and we arrange for those to be the upgraded ones. We never just line them up and let them get shot until they die... its not how the game works.

STs are not a big upgrade, they are a 28% increase in points, and a 50% increase in offense. Sure it makes the brood *slightly* less resilient, but it makes *NO NEGATIVE DIFFERENCE* until 80% of the brood has been wiped out. But it does make a positive difference from the very first attack.
It *barely* effects the charge, but does help on subsequent rounds; and it helps a lot on multi-charges. *Staying* in combat is the job of a tarpit unit, get some gaunts. Stealers want to hit, do damage, wait *one* turn, and get out so they can hit somewhere else.
ST helps with this, because most of the increase is in the subsequent rounds.

tag8833 wrote:

TAG's Genestealer Tactica.

Spoiler:

Firstly, and this is important. Genestealers suck. They are overcosted by 1/2 and lack the mobility options of Shrikes and Raveners (who have a similar killing power). Even Hormagants are faster. They lack the survivability of a house fly, and they need support to be effective. There are very, very few scenarios where they would make a better choice than Shrikes or Raveners in an army. Or even Hormagants.

However, there are ways to use them and win some games. Here are 10 suggestions to help you pull this off.
1) Don't take upgrades. Genestealers are too expensive already, and upgrades just make them more so. Quantity over Quality here.
1A) that includes a broodlord. It is always better to take more genestealers than a broodlord. Don't be impressed with his pinning ability. Most things genestealers want to assault can't be pinned. If it can be pinned (i.e. Necrons) it still needs to fail a pinning test at -2, and that just isn't going to happen often. It will work for you once in 5 games, and anything that inconsistent is not worth it.
2) Run them in large squads. 15 is a good number. Never less than 10. This helps with support as well.
3) Support them. There are two ways to do so.
3A) Malanthropes. To be useful at all, Genestealers need shrouded. To be effective they need preferred enemy. The Malanthrope can help with both. It can also tank wounds on its 3+, and eat challenges. If Genestealers could take a Malanthrope instead of a brood lord, they would be a very good unit. I think 2 Malanthropes are best if you are running Genestealers.
3B) Venom + Swarmlord. Swarmlord can give Genestealers furious charge, preferred enemy, and potentially Feel No Pain. That is a ton of support. If only it didn't come in such an expensive package.
4) Don't outflank them. It may seem like you can outflank them as a way to offset their abysmal mobility. However, if you do so, the might not come in turn 2, and they can't start seriously contributing until turn 3 or 4. It is a costly unit to not have contribute for 1/2 of the game.
5) Do Infiltrate them. Unless you are facing drop pods, or are confident you opponent will put something in range for a turn 1 charge, you want these genestealers at midfield asap. However there are some tricks.
5A) Focus fire is not a part of the 7th edition rulebook. Abuse this. Infiltrate the Genestealers to midfield making sure that as many as possible are in ruins, and that those models are closer to the enemy than the models out of ruins.
5B) Remember the support. Congaline the genestealers back to your deployment zone to make sure they get Shrouded from a venom or malan. If you do this, the 1st few genestealers get a 2+ cover save.
5C) Fear Flamers. If you enemy has flamers in their army you want to infiltrate somewhere that the flamers can't get to you on turn 1.
6) Distract your opponent. Remember that the second someone wants to kill a mob of genestealers, they all drop dead instantly. Give them something else that they want to kill. Flyrants can sometimes do this. Gargoyles with better mobility can seem scarier. Lictors can infiltrate, and you can talk up their leathality. Deathleaper is usefule here.
7) Gargoyles. Genestealers are bad at being overwatched. That means you've got to get something to them ASAP to help them eat overwatch. Gargoyles are that thing. Also use the gargoyles to screen genestealers whenever possible. Hormagants can work this way, but are not as good as gargoyles.
7A) Sometimes you can use gants or gargoyles to bring more units into a combat. Because combat results are all added together, you might be able to do enough wounds with your genestealers to sweep a couple units at a time. If not, once in a while you can use this trick to keep the genestealers in combat on your opponent's turn.
8) Multi-Assault. Genestealers suffer from a similar problem to the Dima. In the current age of min sized squads, they can kill those squads too effectively, and not stay locked in combat so that they can survive opponent's shooting. However, Genestealers have a solution to this that Dima's don't. With many models, they can multi assault. A good choice is to multi-assault them into a Rhino or other vehicle, and also into a unit that they can stay locked with. Try to put as many attacks in the first round against the vehicle so that you don't wipe out the other unit. You can always kill them on your opponent's turn.
9) Don't take them against opponents who ignore cover Without a cover save they are dead. Wave serpent spam, Tau are genestealer kryptonite.
10) Take something else as well. Even if you follow all of these steps, and get lucky in the game, your genestealers are probably only good for 1 big assault. That means you need something else in your army which can mop up the rest of your opponent's forces. Once your genestealers get below 5, drop them back to an objective. They are done.

We aren't going to see Genestealers at top table any time soon, but if you follow these suggestions you can use them to help you win games.

I agree with your tactica in relation to the original query (how to use big blocks of genestealers) but there's a couple of things I'd add.

--Broodlords can be usefull for a couple reasons.

One, you can take a small brood of stealers, add the broodlord and make him your warlord. In formats that weight slay the warlord heavily this can be a life saver -- it opens up your play a bit with your hive tyrant. InControl did this at NoVa and I have used this trick on occasion as well. The main drawback is when fishing for Master of Ambush he doesn't benefit. You also tend to just put in him reserve and hide him, so that is less points resources available to the army. Still a viable option.

Two, in a big block of stealers you can use a broodlord to help get into assault. Overwatch can and will keep you out of assault range. General shooting can also. A broodlord helps mitigate this via being a character with T5 multiwound and 4+ save -- he is much more likely to survive and stay close to the target unit. Simply having more bodies won't do that in the same manner. This is, in my opinion, the only reason he is worth his extra points in a big stealer unit (that and he does add to the warp pool which can benefit a stealer spam army).

--Small stealer units have their place due to obsec. They can go to ground unlike rippers. They can outflank which is terrible for assault but great for objective grabs. They can infiltrate which makes them better in maelstrom then either gants or rippers. Like any MSU strategy they can work by diluting enemy firepower and are more of a distraction then other gribblies (they will draw more fire then rippers or gants). Still the caveat remains they aren't exactly stellar either for the points but I have em so try and use em anyways to decent effect.

Broody's 4+ has saved my unit on many occassions

coredump wrote:
Wow tag, that is a lot of Math... unfortunately almost all of it misses the point of the issue.
.....

Overall, upgraded genestealers kill 1.3% less marines per point spent on them than Devourer Gants, While base genestealers kill 18.2% more marines than Fleshgants per point. Overall Genestealers are more killy, though this isn't a great comparison because it is shooting vs assault.

Again missing the point.... this is not a comparison between Gaunts vs Stealers. We all know stealers suck, the point is what is the best way to take stealers....

Yep. I got a little caught up in Gants vs Stealers, and sidestepped the issue a bit.

coredump wrote:
STs are not a big upgrade, they are a 28% increase in points, and a 50% increase in offense. Sure it makes the brood *slightly* less resilient, but it makes *NO NEGATIVE DIFFERENCE* until 80% of the brood has been wiped out. But it does make a positive difference from the very first attack.
It *barely* effects the charge, but does help on subsequent rounds; and it helps a lot on multi-charges. *Staying* in combat is the job of a tarpit unit, get some gaunts. Stealers want to hit, do damage, wait *one* turn, and get out so they can hit somewhere else.
ST helps with this, because most of the increase is in the subsequent rounds.

I see your point here. I'm not sure if I agree with you. I think one of the jobs of Genestealers includes tarpitting units. If I can pull off a charge onto a Wraith Knight or Riptide I'm going to do it. If I can't kill a a walker in shooting, in go the Genestealers. If I have the option to charge at Devastators or Tac Marines, I'm charging the Devastators. Their High weapon's skill makes them a formidable tarpit. I almost always send them after the unit in range that is most threatening to me in my opponent's shooting phase, and my worst fear when I charge something with Genestealers is that I will kill it on the turn I charge, and not get to stay safe in combat next turn. This leads me to do odd things like reroll charges that are too big, or conga line my stealers farther away from the model(s) that I'm charging. If they can stay locked for my opponent's 2nd turn, I will have had time to mobilize the rest of my army and neutralize other shooting, so even if I win combat on my turn 3, I am safer.

It might be that Scything Talons wouldn't get in the way of this. You've made a good enough case that I will do some test games when I have appropriate opponents.

coredump wrote:
(Plus, you change how you determined percentages, to be consistent, devourers increase damage by 200%, not 300%)

You are correct. My bad. Changed how I was doing calculation 1/2 way through, and missed this when I went back to correct.

tag8833 wrote:

 winterman wrote:
Two, in a big block of stealers you can use a broodlord to help get into assault. Overwatch can and will keep you out of assault range. General shooting can also. A broodlord helps mitigate this via being a character with T5 multiwound and 4+ save -- he is much more likely to survive and stay close to the target unit. Simply having more bodies won't do that in the same manner. This is, in my opinion, the only reason he is worth his extra points in a big stealer unit (that and he does add to the warp pool which can benefit a stealer spam army).

He costs as much as 4 more Genestealers. 3 wounds with a 4+ save vs 4 wounds with a 5+.

You missed the point. Its not just his wounds and saves and stats, which you seem to focus on a lot, its all about his ability to help the unit maintain positioning. If you lose models due to overwatch or shooting you will more often then not have a larger gap to close on the charge. Extra wounds and attacks mean nothing if you don't actually get into combat.

 winterman wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

 winterman wrote:
Two, in a big block of stealers you can use a broodlord to help get into assault. Overwatch can and will keep you out of assault range. General shooting can also. A broodlord helps mitigate this via being a character with T5 multiwound and 4+ save -- he is much more likely to survive and stay close to the target unit. Simply having more bodies won't do that in the same manner. This is, in my opinion, the only reason he is worth his extra points in a big stealer unit (that and he does add to the warp pool which can benefit a stealer spam army).

He costs as much as 4 more Genestealers. 3 wounds with a 4+ save vs 4 wounds with a 5+.

You missed the point. Its not just his wounds and saves and stats, which you seem to focus on a lot, its all about his ability to help the unit maintain positioning. If you lose models due to overwatch or shooting you will more often then not have a larger gap to close on the charge. Extra wounds and attacks mean nothing if you don't actually get into combat.

It's not that he doesn't bring anything to the table - he certainly does - but the point is that it's not as effective as more Stealers would be, typically. If the total cost of the Broodlord was an upgrade cost that incorporated the base cost of a Genestealer, making him 14 points cheaper, we would be having a different conversation. Also worth noting that although he is T5, this is irrelevant in the opponent's shooting phase due to majority toughness, which is what you wound against (unless I misunderstood you and were referencing his CC durability).

Frankly, I think just giving the stealers a 4+ armor save (and bumping the Broodlord to a 3+) would make everything appropriately costed and usable.

T5 is relevant when you are using a multiwound character to tank and filter wounds so as to maintain positioning for an assault. He won't instant death to S8. If he was T4 he'd be much less effective at that role.

winterman 572843 7210208 b3d5f45758f70650314a9503dc1e4362 wrote:
--Broodlords can be usefull for a couple reasons.

One, you can take a small brood of stealers, add the broodlord and make him your warlord. In formats that weight slay the warlord heavily this can be a life saver -- it opens up your play a bit with your hive tyrant. InControl did this at NoVa and I have used this trick on occasion as well. The main drawback is when fishing for Master of Ambush he doesn't benefit. You also tend to just put in him reserve and hide him, so that is less points resources available to the army. Still a viable option.

I'd just like to point out that this isn't actually a negative, you already have your infiltrate on all your Stealers every single game without needing to rely on the 1/3 chance or whatever it is, for MoA, also allowing you to benefit from one of the many other useful traits on that table. On top of this, InControl is pretty bad at 40k generally just taking net list + some completely unexplained and stupid tweaks and playing it quite mediocrely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@coredump while you might see no negative returns until the squad is dead this sort of forces you into taking large squads, as small squads get dead very quickly. Pythia stops you from taking the H&R Genestealer formation as an obvious setback, but just in general MSU is so much better for stealers. I'm top of the that, the benefits assuming best case scenario are so minor. And there is never going to be a game where every Stealer wound isn't relevant.

On top of ally this, the trade off of tank for attacks just isn't worth it like it is with Devourers. I don't ever risk points on Devourers unless outflanking them and they hit the turn they hit the field, so I think both upgrades are kind of crappy, but at least Termagants pay 60 points for 15 ablative wounds before the Devourers start dying, for the same price Genestealers get 4. It's no comparison really and casting a logical eye on ScyTals the upgrade just doesn't stand to make back what it's worth.

 SHUPPET wrote:

On top of this, InControl is pretty bad at 40k generally just taking net list + some completely unexplained and stupid tweaks and playing it quite mediocrely.

I LOL'd when I read this. Too bad InControl doesn't browse/post here on dakka. It would have been interesting to see the fireworks if he did.

I still watch his stream whenever its on and quite enjoy watching him play Starcraft, it hurts my head to look at his 40k lists and battlereports however.

 winterman wrote:
T5 is relevant when you are using a multiwound character to tank and filter wounds so as to maintain positioning for an assault. He won't instant death to S8. If he was T4 he'd be much less effective at that role.

Every single genestealer gets ID'd by S8 that is true. On the other hand every single genestealer also gets one-shotted by S3, so the added toughness only really matters in challenges or once the unit gets down to 1 stealer plus the broodlord.

If you vision of the Broodlord is an overwatch eater, he really isn't all that good at that either. Eat overwatch with 6 point gargoyles or a Malanthrope with a 3+ save and regen. Not with a Broodlord who costs 24.5 points per wound (ST + TS).

The other issue is one of deployment. You don't want to infiltrate the broodlord up front of the genestaler unit. It raises your opponent's target priority on the unit. Instead you are generally going to want to keep the broodlord near the back of whatever terrain you infiltrate the stealers on to. Now, in order for him to eat overwatch, he has to be at the front, meaning that your charge range is going to be significantly greater.

In later turns, he might be able to eat overwatch, but there are many things that could go wrong prior to that point in the game, and so building a strategy around that scenario is dubious. It is the same problem with building a strategy around his ability to pin opponents. It will work 1 in 5 games depending on the meta, but most of the time it is relatively worthless. Now, if the Horror was written better it would be a 12" nova power, and might justify its existence, and its inclusion as the broodlord's predefined power. Or, if it lowered the initiative to one, and denied overwatch rather than pinning (because 2/3 of what you are going to run into can't be pinned.

I used to pin riptides in 6th quite a bit. But I think in 7th I've only ever successfully pinned Necron warriors. I seem to have pretty good luck pinning them.

tag8833 wrote:
]I see your point here. I'm not sure if I agree with you. I think one of the jobs of Genestealers includes tarpitting units. If I can pull off a charge onto a Wraith Knight or Riptide I'm going to do it.

Sure you can, and sometimes you need to; but they are really bad at it. That is what gaunts are for, heck warriors and shrikes are better in most situations. If you are looking to use your stealers as a tarpit, then we do disagree. Otherwise, I prefer to gear my broods for their prime purpose, and not worry about desparation moves for the most part.

If they can stay locked for my opponent's 2nd turn, I will have had time to mobilize the rest of my army and neutralize other shooting, so even if I win combat on my turn 3, I am safer.

The problem I find, is that stealers can't last in a prolonged fight. If the enemy is good enough, or numerous enough to take multiple game turns to die; there usually isn't much left in the stealer brood.

And there is no benefit to being locked in combat during your turn. You want to destroy the enemy in two phases so you can pick another target to destroy, and to get the charge bonus again.

It might be that Scything Talons wouldn't get in the way of this. You've made a good enough case that I will do some test games when I have appropriate opponents.

The trick to understanding this is to realize it is a *small* change in the brood. This isn't a big increase in offense *or* resilency. The example I was using (17 vs 15 w/7ST) is a difference of 2 wounds and 3 attacks per phase. This is just sprinkling in some talons to tweak the damage up a bit, without losing any practical resiliency.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:

@coredump while you might see no negative returns until the squad is dead this sort of forces you into taking large squads, as small squads get dead very quickly. Pythia stops you from taking the H&R Genestealer formation as an obvious setback, but just in general MSU is so much better for stealers.

You have it backwards, I am not saying "STs are great, so take big broods" I am saying "If you are taking big broods, a few ST can be a good idea" I probably would not use them in broods less than 10.
Since the tactica under discussion was suggesting 15... it seemed appropriate.

It's no comparison really and casting a logical eye on ScyTals the upgrade just doesn't stand to make back what it's worth.

The only way it doesn't 'make back' what its worth, is if the brood gets destroyed before ever getting into combat.... At which point, who cares what you do...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets breakdown the Broodlord

Costs the same as 4 stealers

Has the offense of 2-3 stealers (1/2 the attacks, but at S5)

Has the resiliency of
AP-/6 4 stealers
AP5 6 stealers (Bolter bait??)
AP4/3/2 3 stealers

So lets call the resiliency a wash, and see what you get for giving up the attacks of 1-2 stealers:

Adds 1 die to your psy pool
Horror: Roll 3 dice against Ld9 unit = 31% chance, against Ld8 is 43% chance of pinning, and thus prevent overwatch and no Init penalty for Diff terrain
Dominon: Lets you GtG to get +1 cover save, then cast Dominion to end GtG and assault (if close enough)
Overwatch: Not only does a BLord have 3 wounds and a better save, it is character. Put him in front and even if you LoS some of the wounds, the assault range does not get any further.
Snipe: If you can get the Blord into base contact, all his wounds get allocated to *that* model. Lets you snipe out trouble models before they can swing.

Now, these may not be all that great, or pretty situational, or whatever... but they also only 'cost' about 4 attacks.
Compare that to a 30-40% chance of pinning an enemy unit?
How many stealers (attacks) will be saved by no overwatch? How many will be saved by being able to strike first?
When you have a brood with 30-45 attacks on the charge, is this chance worth losing 4ish attacks?

What if the stealers get fired at, how many stealers get saved by GtG?

How valuable is it to snipe out that one model?

coredump wrote:
Lets breakdown the Broodlord

Costs the same as 4 stealers

Has the offense of 2-3 stealers (1/2 the attacks, but at S5)

Has the resiliency of
AP-/6 4 stealers
AP5 6 stealers (Bolter bait??)
AP4/3/2 3 stealers

So lets call the resiliency a wash, and see what you get for giving up the attacks of 1-2 stealers:

Provided the stealers are on their own and not covered by a Malanthrope or Venomthrope.

coredump wrote:
Horror: Roll 3 dice against Ld9 unit = 31% chance, against Ld8 is 43% chance of pinning, and thus prevent overwatch and no Init penalty for Diff terrain. Compare that to a 30-40% chance of pinning an enemy unit?

The problem is many, many things in 40k can't be pinned. Bikes, MC's, Vehicles, anything fearless. So the effective percent is more like 1/3 of that.

coredump wrote:
Dominon: Lets you GtG to get +1 cover save, then cast Dominion to end GtG and assault (if close enough)

Only works if the Stealers aren't supported. There is no way to make use of this during your opponent's first shooting phase. Best case scenario, it might be useful on opponent turn 2 or 3.

coredump wrote:
Snipe: If you can get the Blord into base contact, all his wounds get allocated to *that* model. Lets you snipe out trouble models before they can swing.

This one is a definite plus. You can snipe out a Nob with a challenge.

coredump wrote:
Now, these may not be all that great, or pretty situational, or whatever... but they also only 'cost' about 4 attacks.

4 attacks and 3-4 bodies. So you've got less board control, and multi-charge ability.

In a vacuum, the broodlord is definitely worth it. However a properly supported brood invalidates most of his positives. He raises the target priority of genestealers for very little gain.

tag8833 wrote:

Provided the stealers are on their own and not covered by a Malanthrope or Venomthrope.

Valid, but if you are infiltrating, or outflanking, or using the formations... Or heck, even if you are running more broods than you can always cover...

The problem is many, many things in 40k can't be pinned. Bikes, MC's, Vehicles, anything fearless. So the effective percent is more like 1/3 of that.

You really think 2/3 of the GS targets can't be pinned? Even if some can't, target the ones you can. It is a *big* boost in effectiveness. (If it works)

Only works if the Stealers aren't supported. There is no way to make use of this during your opponent's first shooting phase. Best case scenario, it might be useful on opponent turn 2 or 3.

No, only works if the stealers are not in synapse, and thats the *point*, it provides the ability to put them out of synapse, so they *can* GtG, and still assault next turn. It really shouldn't be that hard to infiltrate and be out of synapse range, you could even put a venom nearby for more cover save goodness. (Or if you Outlfank, or if you use the formations...)

This one is a definite plus. You can snipe out a Nob with a challenge.

Not just a challenge, *any* model, perhaps the one carrying a banner, or the one providing FnP, etc. Just get the BL into base contact and all attacks allocate to *that* model. No challenge required.

4 attacks and 3-4 bodies. So you've got less board control, and multi-charge ability.

3 bodies... and the same charge ability. If you need every single model just to stretch from one combat to another... you are doing it wrong. 10 models can multi assault just as well as 13 (assuming same offensive power available), 15 can multi assault just as well as 18.
Sure, 5 has more problems than 8, but do you really want to multi-assault with only 8 stealers? And *if* you do, the targets are likely very close together, so 5 should work just fine.


But again, you are looking for the 'one great reason'... and admittedly it doesn't exist. But there are multiple 'little reasons' that may add up to enough. Being able to GtG is a big help, having a venom boost to a 3+ save is great, getting a 2+ cuts your casualties *in half*.

But that, alone, is not enough reason.... but also the *chance* to pin a unit. Again, not overly reliable, but a *big* shift if it happens. No overwatch *and* you kill models before they even attack? Even if its only a 20% chance... thats worth something.

etc
etc

coredump wrote:

This one is a definite plus. You can snipe out a Nob with a challenge.

Not just a challenge, *any* model, perhaps the one carrying a banner, or the one providing FnP, etc. Just get the BL into base contact and all attacks allocate to *that* model. No challenge required.

Eh? I may have missed a rule here. As the broodlord is part of the unit not an IC, wouldn't his attacks still go in general pool of attacks? Or is it working of the fact BL goes alone on at I7 so all attacks hit the nearest model, which of course the one in B2B?

coredump wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Only works if the Stealers aren't supported. There is no way to make use of this during your opponent's first shooting phase. Best case scenario, it might be useful on opponent turn 2 or 3.

No, only works if the stealers are not in synapse, and thats the *point*, it provides the ability to put them out of synapse, so they *can* GtG, and still assault next turn. It really shouldn't be that hard to infiltrate and be out of synapse range, you could even put a venom nearby for more cover save goodness. (Or if you Outlfank, or if you use the formations...)

If you put a venom within range to give cover (6") that venom couldn't be used to give shrouded to any synapse creature unless the Genestealers are also in synapse.

Fellas, here is my tyranid porn for you:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/615665.page#7213043

My 6000 pt or so collection fully painted.

I never want to paint this scheme again!

tag8833 wrote:

coredump wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Only works if the Stealers aren't supported. There is no way to make use of this during your opponent's first shooting phase. Best case scenario, it might be useful on opponent turn 2 or 3.

No, only works if the stealers are not in synapse, and thats the *point*, it provides the ability to put them out of synapse, so they *can* GtG, and still assault next turn. It really shouldn't be that hard to infiltrate and be out of synapse range, you could even put a venom nearby for more cover save goodness. (Or if you Outlfank, or if you use the formations...)

If you put a venom within range to give cover (6") that venom couldn't be used to give shrouded to any synapse creature unless the Genestealers are also in synapse.

Not true. 6" from the venom in one direction, plus the venoms base, plus 6" in another direction means you can cover 2 units and not have Synapse cross the gap.

It's not trivial, but it's doable.

rigeld2 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

coredump wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Only works if the Stealers aren't supported. There is no way to make use of this during your opponent's first shooting phase. Best case scenario, it might be useful on opponent turn 2 or 3.

No, only works if the stealers are not in synapse, and thats the *point*, it provides the ability to put them out of synapse, so they *can* GtG, and still assault next turn. It really shouldn't be that hard to infiltrate and be out of synapse range, you could even put a venom nearby for more cover save goodness. (Or if you Outlfank, or if you use the formations...)

If you put a venom within range to give cover (6") that venom couldn't be used to give shrouded to any synapse creature unless the Genestealers are also in synapse.

Not true. 6" from the venom in one direction, plus the venoms base, plus 6" in another direction means you can cover 2 units and not have Synapse cross the gap.

It's not trivial, but it's doable.

I stand corrected. I did not consider the base size of the venom.

 Iechine wrote:
Fellas, here is my tyranid porn for you:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/615665.page#7213043

My 6000 pt or so collection fully painted.

I never want to paint this scheme again!

hnnnnnnnnnnggggg it's gorgeous. like sherbet flavored death.

They just... want hugs.

Until you stop breathing.

 Iechine wrote:

I never want to paint this scheme again!

Hehe, I fully sympathize. I have a Trygon, Tyrant, and another ~150 odd gribblies still demanding attention...

Still, 6000 points fully painted (especially to such a standard) is quite an accomplishment, congratulations!



Anyway, all this talk of Genestealers is getting my creativity going. I'm tempted to try the following next week and see how it goes:


The environment has softened quite a bit since the last time I posted. Quite a few people with new armies have started showing up so people have been dialing back a bit to accommodate the more limited collections (i.e. no more Knights of either sort at 500). I'm not sure if the above list is entirely "friendly", but I think it would be fun (everything Infiltrate!) and "fluffy" at least.

Ok, since we are talking about the genestealers and GtG/Broodlord dominion trick I have a question.

So my question is if my unit of non synapse critters start in synapse range at the beginning of my turn, but fall out of range, due to either the nearest synapse being killed off or moving out of range, do I then have to take synapse checks immediately, or only at the beginning of the next turn?

Conversely, if I started my turn with them out of range, and I then move my synapse back into range, they then immediately negate the effects of the instinctive behavior?

 Strat_N8 wrote:
Anyway, all this talk of Genestealers is getting my creativity going. I'm tempted to try the following next week and see how it goes:

Spoiler:

(unbound)

ELITE: 1x Lictor (50 points)
ELITE: 1x Lictor (50 points)

TROOPS: 1x Brood lord with Scything Talons (Warlord) + 7x Genestealers (162 points)
TROOPS: 7x Genestealers (98 points)

HEAVY: 1x Mawloc (140 points)

Total: 500

The environment has softened quite a bit since the last time I posted. Quite a few people with new armies have started showing up so people have been dialing back a bit to accommodate the more limited collections (i.e. no more Knights of either sort at 500). I'm not sure if the above list is entirely "friendly", but I think it would be fun (everything Infiltrate!) and "fluffy" at least.

At 500 points, I do not think that will be enough bodies to really stick in.

Korias1004 wrote:
So my question is if my unit of non synapse critters start in synapse range at the beginning of my turn, but fall out of range, due to either the nearest synapse being killed off or moving out of range, do I then have to take synapse checks immediately, or only at the beginning of the next turn?

You only take checks if they are out of synapse at the beginning of your turn. The only thing affected by leaving synapse during your own turn is fearless (for assault or going to ground), otherwise units act normally.

Korias1004 wrote:

Conversely, if I started my turn with them out of range, and I then move my synapse back into range, they then immediately negate the effects of the instinctive behavior?

Depends on the effect. If a Hunt creature goes to ground for instance then yes you can negate that and a Lurk creature that is forced to fall back will automatically rally upon entering synapse. The other effects however cannot be stopped until your next turn.

Also, if a non-fearless unit is stranded out of synapse just have the unit in question go to ground during your opponent's shooting phase. Units that have gone to ground do not test for instinctive behavior and you can get them back up next turn via synapse coverage. Buys you a bit of time with IB: Feed units (Hormagaunts and Raveners) in particular.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

At 500 points, I do not think that will be enough bodies to really stick in.

Yeah, body count does feel rather low (and I normally run a strong swarm component which makes it feel worse), but to be fair I think most of the damage is probably going to be coming from the pin-point Mawloc strikes rather than melee proper. Basically the Genestealers exist to draw attention from the Lictors and mop up whatever is left.