Except it DOES have Hit and Run, so it's not actually locked in combat 66% of the time. Also, just because it isn't a close combat killing machine doesn't mean it's S6 AP2 attacks (or it's 1 smash attempt) can't benefit a given situation.
After thinking about it...because you're definitely looking at bringing it in from reserves, you're point is valid...if you assault the turn after you arrive, you cannot re-burrow. It IS nice to have the option to do either...not sure why the option is a negative. Either way, my above comment is more in the spirit of starting on the board and having the potential to assault before burrowing (going second against a drop pod army, for example).
Yep, H&R doesn't help. You make the decision to either reburrow or to stay and assault, you can't do both. So anytime you decide to assault, it means you are giving up on TftD (for at least another turn)
This *used* to be a decent option, because Smash Attack let it deal with troublesome vehicles. Now...just what are you going to attack?
You're right...the only reason you're taking it is for the TftD, but you don't actually have to chance reserves...it can start on the board. Sure, the first TftD attack will land turn 3 after a turn 2 burrow, but that just means you'll potentially be landing a second TftD on turn 5, which is a pretty good time to deep strike a scoring unit anywhere you'd like on the board (if you need to grab an objective or drop a S6 AP2 ignores cover pie plate (X 2 potentially) on a unit that you may not be able to shift off an objective otherwise). I know I know...you want your first TftD to be on turn 2...it's not the end of the world to wait till turn 3, and it's guaranteed.
Which means, by the end of turn 4, you have spent 140pts and the only thing you have to show for it is 1 large blast attack (that hits twice) I want my units to do a lot more by the end of turn 4 than 1 attack. Especially an attack that has no scatter reduction and can be so easily thwarted by ruins or just putting your models in a line
In a landscape where people are complaining non-stop about how uninspired our codex is...it's a shame that we can't embrace a useful, unique option.
Unique, yes. Useful....??
When you place the marker; 55% of the time it will scatter far enough to miss *everything* that was under the marker. So in your scenario, there is a 55% chance that it does *nothing* by the end of turn 4. To me, that is not 'useful'. So you take two, to be sure. Now there is a 30% chance that you spend 280pts, and get nothing out of it the first 4 turns.
Even when they do come in and 'hit'.... what happens when those broadsides are in a ruin? Or they put the grav bikes in a line. (yay, 2 maybe 3 bikes die....)
Yes, if your opponent has a good target like bikes or broadsides or centurions, *and* they clump them up away from ruins, *and* you don't scatter..... you can do a lot of damage. (probably the best solution in the entire game for Invis centstar), but that is a lot of conditions. If you like to gamble... sometimes it will pay off for you. Just remember that there is a 30% chance for the mawloc to scatter completely off target *both* times and do nothing all game.
I want my 'useful' units to be more reliable than that.
I think missing the scatter and placing a 6/6/6 3+ In your opponents side of the field is never going to be wasted points. I think if you are taking it just for a reburrowing TftD you are obviously better with a Mawloc. Take the TftD for what it is, 50/50 chance of a Repeating S6 covering ignoring blast, or double that with 2, and 8x S6 Ap2 attacks on the charge for 280 pts, and 12 freaking T6 wounds that will either have to be dealt with (every shot pointed at a Mawloc is extremely efficient for you) or ignored giving them free reign to tarpit better and more efficiently than a Garg squad as well as doing a lot more damage, to a much broader range of targets.
Exocrine > TftD. If you the cost effectiveness of the body isn't worth the points for you, don't take a Mawloc. Doesn't make it useless, the games when I've had one not be worth it's 140 pts are few and far in between.
I ran 2 Mawlocs with Comms Relay the last 6th ed tournament. Was disappointed with them. They scattered a bit more than average and I rolled more than average 1's on the mishap table, which was enough to put me outside top 10. They had a place in a flying circus by sheer threat overload (I usually had 8 MCs in enemy deployment zone turn 2, not even running Skyblight) but then the Vector Strike nerf hit. Outside Skyblight I can't see myself taking Mawlocs, and Skyblight isn't what it was in 6th ed.
And as mentioned, they are easily neutralized by enemy units using tiered ruins (GW forgot or didn't bother to adress the Mawloc entry when they took away levels from the basic rules) or hugging the table edge (Mawloc scatters off).
I've yet to play test Mawlocs in Maelstrom games, but I doubt that the mobile objective grabbing will be enough to compensate the random.
Reliability/consistent output is king in competitive play. The more control you have over your army, the better. I'm looking to playtest this list for an upcoming 2000pts tournament (no formations allowed, nor Forgeworld, max 2 of the same HQ):
I lost my game against DE yesterday, but I had some uniquely amazingly bad rolling and it came out close, so I'd like to play it again.
Point is, he brought a hard counter in the form of 9 venoms and tons of trueborn and castled. So when my Mawloc came in and hit 8 venoms, she hit spot on and took out 3 and hull pointed the rest, at which point my tyrants swooped in and flooded them with haywire...and I proceeded to roll 3 1's : / the rest he saved via 5+ invuls. Then for my devourer shots I rolled most 1-2-3's for pen. : /
Just curious if the DLAB would make Mawlocs more efficient? Run the lictors up in their faces and turn 2 have the Locs pop up and soften everything up? Or was the discussion strictly based on their vehicle killing abilities?
SHUPPET wrote: I'm finding the best AT is Haywire Hive Guard for heavy armour.
Friends don't let friend take Haywire Hive Guard. The best AT for heavy armour is Carnifexes in Assault, Flyrants firing Warp Lance or E.Grubs, and Crones.
We'll with this undeniable well reasoned logic, I don't know why I ever thought otherwise!
Mind doing the stats of 240 pts of Haywire HG firing at a LandRaider, compared to a Flyrant firing Warp Lance and eGrubs for the same price?
This isn't really something that you can run stats on. 1/3 chance to roll a hit on the scatter dice, but the distance scattered and direction make it hard to compute hits. If it hits, it will glance 67% of the time and Pen 17% of the time with a 0% chance to explode. Meanwhile a flyrant is never going to forfeit its Devourers fro E.Grubs without hitting at lease 2 vehicles, or 1 Vehicle and 4 marines. Warp lance's success depends on your psychic dice which are random. Assuming it goes off and is not denied it is going to Glance 2/3 * 1/6 or 11% of the time and Pen 2/3 * 4/6 or 44% of the time. 1/6 pens will be an explodes.
The reason Haywire hive guard suck:
1) Over costed. 3 Cost more than a Dakkafex who is more effective in assault against AV 13+ than they are in shooting
2) Unitasker. good at popping AV 13+. Worse than normal hive guard against everything else.
3) One shot per. That mean statistically 1 hit, and 2 scatters in a group of 3. At least one of those scatters is usually going to miss, so they can't pop an average vehicle in one round of shooting.
4) Short Range. 18" means vehicles can avoid them, and they usually have to run turn 1. For a total of 4 turns of maximum contribution with 2 turns per vehicle their top end game performance is about 2 vehicles.
5) Don't ignore cover. Vehicles can still take cover saves against them. This coupled with poor mobility will allow a good player to negate 1/2 of their hits.
6) Require Line Sight. They have to stand out in the open and take return fire to contribute in any way.
While some of the lesser units in the Tyranid codex are situationally useful, (Trygon Prime, Lictors, Genestealers, Warriors, Impaler Cannon Hive Guard), I can't summon to mind a situation where haywire Hive guard are better than normal hive guard. I've played against a 3 land raider list on several occasions, and I'm winning most of those games, and Haywire Hive Guard would make a victory harder. If they had made them Assault 2, ignore cover, then Haywire Hive guard might be useful, or maybe made it a 36" large blast. But with their current stats, no thanks.
coredump wrote: Mawlocs come in turn 2-3, then have to worry about scatter, are ineffectual against vehicles or anything in ruins. They have no shooting, and cant assault the turn they come in. On their next turn, they have to choose between 4 WS3 attacks, or reburrow to try TftD again.
They used to be an assault threat against vehicles, but now they can't even do that.
I haven't tried this yet, but I have thought about it: what if we put ESG on a mawloc.
TftD is anti-infantry/light armor. So we don't get to assault first turn, but even if we DS scatter that template allows us to still most likely be in range to hit with it, which we only get one against a vehicle anyway. Also, if our opponent doesn't have many infantry choices available and does indeed have a crap ton of vehicles (possibly clumped together, but not guaranteed), then that allows for a good chance of multiple vehicles hit, with the right positioning of course.
As far as the utility of Mawlocs I'm right in the middle on them. I like to take them because that AP2 blast can do some hefty damage. Sometimes they have made they have proved their worth and made their cost back point for point in destruction, and others not. The problem I've been having with them is not that they don't reliably hit for me, it's that the wording of it says that once the model can be placed you must do so; ie no second blast. On the times where they don't eat enough models to make their cost back (and as I have yet tried the ESG trick) I find that my opponents dedicated as much firepower to destroying the Mawloc as possible to prevent a second TftD. This DOES give my other MCs and support units another turn to get that much closer, so there is that to consider as well.
SHUPPET wrote: They can't take a thorax like Trygons unfortunately, otherwise they would be much better!
....Crap, I've been reading their entry wrong then.....I thought for sure though.....
Maybe I was reading biomorphs as thorax biomorphs...I don't have my dex handy so I'll have to double check it when I get home.
Still, I feel they are still a good points sink; even if they don't hit much or don't take out much the amount of fire they will draw for that turn usually lets all my other MCs live another round to get closer or shoot more.
ductvader wrote: I don't understand how so many people are losing synapse.
I've had a unit out of synapse maybe 10 times in the last three years.
How much synapse are you guys running?
Late reply, but eh...
Does it count losing synapse if I and my opponent both forget about my dark grey basecoated Rippers sitting in that dark grey buidling the entire game? lol...has happened more than once
Ratius wrote: Guys do you think this list would work? The idea is a deepstrike based theme.
1500 roughly
Tyrant with wings, AG and dev + hive commander
Deathleaper
Lictor
Lictor
Tervigon (outflanking)
30 gants
20 Gargoyles
4 Raveners with devs with Red Terror
3 Raveners with devs
Mawloc
Mawloc
This list doesn't really work because there isn't near enough Synapse. A good rule of thumb is 1 Synapse per 500 points. All you have is the Tervigon, and that is simply not enough. On the plus side, if you change the Raveners to Shrikes, you might be ok. It isn't a high powered list, but it might be functional. Your main problem is keeping the gants from running off the board when they fail synapse. I have a really, really successful (12-0-1) fast 1500 point list that I built based on Ductvader's Turn Two Tsunami list, and it has some similar models, so you might like it:
Spoiler:
Flyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs)
Flyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs)
Venom -> You might replace replace all the Elites with 2 Malenthropes and drop a Ravener to free up the points
Zoey
Zoey
Hi guys! This thread is just enormous...Lots of usefull tools, opinions and advise but... 161 pages! Couldn't it be "washed"? One month without internet and 20 pages to read at this time.
BTW, how do you deal with Tzeentch daemons? You know, summoning ones and 2++ screamers...
jackyratos wrote: Hi guys! This thread is just enormous...Lots of usefull tools, opinions and advise but... 161 pages! Couldn't it be "washed"? One month without internet and 20 pages to read at this time.
BTW, how do you deal with Tzeentch daemons? You know, summoning ones and 2++ screamers...
Summoned demon spam sucks. I've yet to lose to them- they can spam the board but they just do not put out enough offensive.
2++ screamers - ignore, tie up with gants and devour everything else!
jackyratos wrote: Hi guys! This thread is just enormous...Lots of usefull tools, opinions and advise but... 161 pages! Couldn't it be "washed"? One month without internet and 20 pages to read at this time. BTW, how do you deal with Tzeentch daemons? You know, summoning ones and 2++ screamers...
Summoned demon spam sucks. I've yet to lose to them- they can spam the board but they just do not put out enough offensive.
2++ screamers - ignore, tie up with gants and devour everything else!
The problem is something like this:
Tyran wrote: Ok, here I present you 2 lists, the first one is a Screamerstar/Flying Circus hybrid:
Fateweaver - 300
Herald of Tzeentch - 45 Exalted Reward - 30 Mastery Level 3 - 50 Disc of Tzeentch - 25
The idea here with both lists is that the Herald(s) get(s) the Malefic powers, trying to get Cursed Earth which will be used with the Grimoire for the 2++ rerolling failed. The Daemon Princes on their part get the Telepathy powers, trying to get Shrouding and Invisibility. Shrouding, in combination with Jink will give us a 2+ cover saves, rerolling 1s thanks to being a Deamon of Tzeentch. When rolling the lesser reward, swap for the staff to get the +2 S.
Move the Daemon Princes together, gliding, all within 6" of the Prince(s) that has/have Shrouding, only the Fateweaver will swoop. If your opponent has either a lot of ignore cover weapons or scary CC units that can kill a Deamon Prince and you got Invisibility, the Daemon Prince with Shrouding should swoop, while the other one should glide and be invisible. Also keep the Screamerstar close for the bonus of Cursed Earth. If for some reason you failed to get it/cast it or you failed the Grimoire's test, then be withing 6" of the Prince with Shrouding for the 2+ cover.
The Horrors should stay behind in the Aegis, go to ground if necessary.
If necessary, summon additional units depending on what do you need.
Had two games today, 1850 and 1500 vs Grey Knights, both purge the alien missions.
1st Game ran dual Dakka Flyrants, Harpy, Hive Crone, Malanthrope, StoneCrusher, and Dakka-Fex. Assorted others to fill out point(not listing as they really didn't contribute or influence the game). Game basically was me running laps with the 4 FMCs plinking away. His dreadknight got locked into CC with the stonecrusher the ENTIRE game. Malanthrope came in and helped to whittle him down. But yeah, wasn't the easiest of games for my opponent. That game is embodied by these two pictures...
"What's that in the distance...?"
"Oh crap...................."
All legit and proper movements to get them there too lol.
Second game his reserve rolls sucked hard. He conceded 3rd turn since nothing was coming on and he was pretty much tabled at that point. Weird things though after we played it out. Deathleaper and his Brood torn down some GK Termies. They seem way more durable than I thought they would be. 5+ save sucks, but eh...I can live with it. Thoughts?
Bad pic, but the other table half was mirrored with a ruin and forest just flipped sides.
Finished ( or pretty much finished anyway!) My Budget Dimachaeron.
I'm awful with green stuff but if you wanna make your own i'll be posting a How to very soon on http://40kbrawl.blogspot.co.uk
Played against Jim's Nids a couple of days ago. I am not 110% on board with the Daemacheron as I am the Malanthrope. I shot down the Daemacheron and it did nothing, the Malanthrope on the other hand is AMAZING. I am tons more afraid of the bugs with the updates now
Commander_Farsight wrote: Played against Jim's Nids a couple of days ago. I am not 110% on board with the Daemacheron as I am the Malanthrope. I shot down the Daemacheron and it did nothing, the Malanthrope on the other hand is AMAZING. I am tons more afraid of the bugs with the updates now
all big nids are squishy at the end of the day but if a Dima gets into combat, whatever it is fighting with is most certainly boned.
It comes to 2000 dead on, and I think it has what it takes. There are a few left-field choices here (Reaper Tyrant and the Hormagaunts), but with this many ML2 casters I am almost certain to get Catalyst on them, which makes them a royal pain to put down. The Reaper has also served me well in the past; this high I and good number of S8/AP2 attacks savage elite units like Marines with ease. He *is* expensive, but I have found that on a model like that OA really pays for itself as it is incredibly unlikely that he will whiff in combat.
Turn 1 will be about surviving, and then on turn 2 there should suddenly be a threat overload across the board as the fast units and Mawlocs get stuck in.
I have absolutely no idea what my opponent is going to bring. Has anyone played against the new SW yet? Is there anything in particular I should watch out for?
Another Venomthrope would really serve you well, Id drop a Zoey to gain another one. With that many swarms it will be difficult to keep everyone protected.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Started/Finished Tyrant #4 yesterday. His Devourer arms havent arrived from China yet, so they'll have to be added later.
I've worked up an image in photoshop of each Tyrants face, left to right. Im going to print it and put it in a laminate sheet, so I can lay down my psycher cards under each face, makes keeping track of them in game so much easier.
So one of the 40k clubs I attend has been having a tournament/league/thing over the last 5 months, one game a month, 2000 points, we switched to 7th edition for round 3, all opponents where known before hand and we could change our lists up to 3 times. The only restrictions that were in place was no Forge World (much to my annoyance). The last game was this Saturday and finished in second place, going unbeaten the whole way through. All of the lists I used and results etc can be found here if anyone wants to see in more detail... http://www.leicesterallscars.org/tournament.html
I lose 4 T6 Wounds with 12 twin linked S6 shots, but gain a big screen, 3 scoring non running away units and 30 wounds with an initial Malanthrope bonus.
I hate hate HATE moving 30 models like that, but its a bunch of tarpitters while the 4 tyrants are flying around.
Has anyone been running the Bioblast Node formation? I've been experimenting a lot with Skyblight, Living Artillery, and the Deathleaper formation and I'm thinking of switching up to Bioblast next.
Any tips on list building to support it?
I've run bioblast in a few friendly games and I find it hit or miss depending on what sort of targets I have. Against people with multiple soft targets, or massed infantry, its a godsend, those chances to split fire your dakkafexes and take out 2 transports are great, and the rerolls to wound help ensure you clear the target you're aiming at. Against people with the mobility to stay clear or heavier armor you need to focus.... not so great.
I've been thinking of running a list similar to this, as regardless of effectiveness, I will always have a soft spot in my heart for nidzilla...
1850, low on OS troops, low body count, but I'm not concerned, should be a fun list against my meta (very little massed firepower, worst I have is a couple raider spam Deldar, but I've found that tyranno's have turned into pretty solid raider killers with the new template on open topped transport rule)
Has anyone used the Dimachareon? How well did it work? I'm debating buying IA 4 and am hearing good things about the Malanthrope but not so much about the Dimachareon.
Frozocrone wrote: Has anyone used the Dimachareon? How well did it work? I'm debating buying IA 4 and am hearing good things about the Malanthrope but not so much about the Dimachareon.
Another question: regarding the stone crusher fex, the wrecker claw version only has 2 attacks base. Would switching to the wrecker claw/ flail version boost it up to 3 base attacks since it would have 2 different weapons now?
Best use of the Stonecrusher is going to be against lists with high-AV Fortifications / Lords of War (especially Planetstrike and Apoc), or when you know you'll be fighting several tough MCs (like Wraithlords/knights).
Generally they're going to rely on rules like Master of Ambush or All Out Attack (in Apoc) to reach their target alive.
I play Tyranids since they exist and almost always play 15+ warriors, 40+ gaunts and varied the rest every battle.
Never used the no-brainers on tournament (big bugs in 3rd/4th dition, then the winged hyve tyrant, tyrant devourers, tervigon lists, malantai) and always was the best scoring tyranig player in very tournament, even against those lists.
The only problem with the Tyranid codex is, just like in the previous codex, that Genestealers are not worth it where they once were the name of the codex.
The rest of the codex is fine, quite balanced and the gaunt firepower is even better than ever if you field 50% devourer gaunt units with 50% cheap ones in the front.
No, the monster lists are not what they used to be, but they used to be broken, now they are fixed.
Frozocrone wrote: Has anyone used the Dimachareon? How well did it work? I'm debating buying IA 4 and am hearing good things about the Malanthrope but not so much about the Dimachareon.
I ran the following list on saturday against Eldar.
Spoiler:
Nidzilla Hive Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs)
Tervigon (E. Grubs)
He tends to run Wraith Themed lists, but his list looked something like this:
Spoiler:
Gunline Eldar Farseer
Farseer
5 Wraith Guard in a Waveserpent (Scatter Lasers, Surican Catapult, Holo Fields, Crystal Targetting Matrix, Vectored Engines)
10 Guardians with 3 Eldar Missile Launchers
10 Guardians with 3 Eldar Missile Launchers
6 Jetbikes
6 Jetbikes
6 Jetbikes
10 Swooping Hawks
10 Warp Spiders
10 Warp Spiders
Aegis Defense Line with Quad Gun
Aegis Defense Line with Quad Gun
It was vanguard deployment. I got master of Ambush, and thought long and hard about if I should infiltrate the Dimas or the Carnifexes. I ended up going with the Carnifexes as they give me a much, much more powerful alpha strike, and I had 1st turn.
On my first turn the Carnifexes killed 5 of the 6 artillery pieces, and one critical Guardian which took his warlord (manning the quad gun) out of coherence, and allowed my Flyrant to kill him. He rolled really poorly on his turn 2, and I only lost a few gargoyles, and the game went down hill for him from there. He conceded on turn 4.
The Dimas were clear under performers. They contributed nearly nothing. One spent the entire game running, because my shooting completely wiped out one flank. The other one failed a 6" charge (with fleet), and then made a charge and killed 5 jetbikes. Meanwhile, the Tervigon also failed a short charge and Kill 5 Jetbikes, and spawned 17 Gaunts.
No matter how low my expectations for the Dima's are, they still fail to meet them. Perhaps if I had infiltrated them instead, it would have been a different story. I'm still going to run them against a wraith themed list eventually, and I'll give JY2's flying circus with Dima's a shot as well, but my answer to your question, is yes, I've proxied them in 3 games so far. They failed to affect the outcome of any of the games in which they participated, and failed to make back 1/2 of their points in each game. They are not a useful unit; lacking speed and shooting, and reliability, and because my Meta is dominated by gunlines, I will not be purchasing the model.
I play Tyranids since they exist and almost always play 15+ warriors, 40+ gaunts and varied the rest every battle.
Never used the no-brainers on tournament (big bugs in 3rd/4th dition, then the winged hyve tyrant, tyrant devourers, tervigon lists, malantai) and always was the best scoring tyranig player in very tournament, even against those lists.
The only problem with the Tyranid codex is, just like in the previous codex, that Genestealers are not worth it where they once were the name of the codex.
The rest of the codex is fine, quite balanced and the gaunt firepower is even better than ever if you field 50% devourer gaunt units with 50% cheap ones in the front.
No, the monster lists are not what they used to be, but they used to be broken, now they are fixed.
This is what I love about the Tyranids, we all have our own experiences and opinions on what works, if a build/list you have come up with works for you then keep using it. Personally I find myself forever writing down army lists with all sorts of combinations, and I'm always tinkering with my army
I find this thread really useful as we are sharing experience across a lot of metas with a lot of different results, apart from a couple of broods (looking at you pyrovores) we have stories and proof from all over the place of our army doing its thing.... eating!
We are the hive fleet, which is to say we evolve and alter our approach based on our experience and what is in front of us... exactly how it should be
xttz wrote: Best use of the Stonecrusher is going to be against lists with high-AV Fortifications / Lords of War (especially Planetstrike and Apoc), or when you know you'll be fighting several tough MCs (like Wraithlords/knights).
.
xttz wrote: Best use of the Stonecrusher is going to be against lists with high-AV Fortifications / Lords of War (especially Planetstrike and Apoc), or when you know you'll be fighting several tough MCs (like Wraithlords/knights).
.
Compare it to a codex fex with CClaws and AG.
That.
The Stonecrusher has a nice niche but the problem he has is ironically the same problem the Dima has - there just is no way to get him to the enemy lines reliably. He's also in a fairly contested slot (Dakkafexes, Mawlocs, Exocrines, T-fexes, Biovores). That, and as coredump points out his anti-armour role can be filled by a Crushing Claw fex with AG that will have more attacks (5 on the charge vs. 3). The Stonecrusher is a bit more durable against shooting and his HoW is potent but both options still have the same problem - they're footslogging melee Tyranids in a meta of transports and firepower.
I'd argue his 'strength' isn't even in the fact he has armourbane and Wrecker but more the fact he has AP2 HoW hits. And there's the problem. You're relying on getting the charge and on rolling lucky on random dice rolls. At least the C-claw fex's number of attacks are reliable.
Frozocrone wrote: Has anyone used the Dimachareon? How well did it work? I'm debating buying IA 4 and am hearing good things about the Malanthrope but not so much about the Dimachareon.
I ran the following list on saturday against Eldar.
Spoiler:
Nidzilla Hive Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs)
Tervigon (E. Grubs)
He tends to run Wraith Themed lists, but his list looked something like this:
Spoiler:
Gunline Eldar Farseer
Farseer
5 Wraith Guard in a Waveserpent (Scatter Lasers, Surican Catapult, Holo Fields, Crystal Targetting Matrix, Vectored Engines)
10 Guardians with 3 Eldar Missile Launchers
10 Guardians with 3 Eldar Missile Launchers
6 Jetbikes
6 Jetbikes
6 Jetbikes
10 Swooping Hawks
10 Warp Spiders
10 Warp Spiders
Aegis Defense Line with Quad Gun
Aegis Defense Line with Quad Gun
It was vanguard deployment. I got master of Ambush, and thought long and hard about if I should infiltrate the Dimas or the Carnifexes. I ended up going with the Carnifexes as they give me a much, much more powerful alpha strike, and I had 1st turn.
On my first turn the Carnifexes killed 5 of the 6 artillery pieces, and one critical Guardian which took his warlord (manning the quad gun) out of coherence, and allowed my Flyrant to kill him. He rolled really poorly on his turn 2, and I only lost a few gargoyles, and the game went down hill for him from there. He conceded on turn 4.
The Dimas were clear under performers. They contributed nearly nothing. One spent the entire game running, because my shooting completely wiped out one flank. The other one failed a 6" charge (with fleet), and then made a charge and killed 5 jetbikes. Meanwhile, the Tervigon also failed a short charge and Kill 5 Jetbikes, and spawned 17 Gaunts.
No matter how low my expectations for the Dima's are, they still fail to meet them. Perhaps if I had infiltrated them instead, it would have been a different story. I'm still going to run them against a wraith themed list eventually, and I'll give JY2's flying circus with Dima's a shot as well, but my answer to your question, is yes, I've proxied them in 3 games so far. They failed to affect the outcome of any of the games in which they participated, and failed to make back 1/2 of their points in each game. They are not a useful unit; lacking speed and shooting, and reliability, and because my Meta is dominated by gunlines, I will not be purchasing the model.
Did the Dimas underperform, or did you just over-perform with your Fexes? Kinda seems like they took out the vast majority and left scraps for everyone else.
Which is basically the problem, any other good unit like Dakkafexes and Flyrants can still perform just as well with only scraps left on the board, Dima's are highly reliant on your opponent needing to flood the middle of the board with units, or just positioning issues in general that other better cheaper more durable harder hitting units do not have.
Frozocrone wrote: Has anyone used the Dimachareon? How well did it work? I'm debating buying IA 4 and am hearing good things about the Malanthrope but not so much about the Dimachareon.
I ran the following list on saturday against Eldar.
[spoiler]Nidzilla Hive Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs)
Tervigon (E. Grubs)
He tends to run Wraith Themed lists, but his list looked something like this:
Spoiler:
Gunline Eldar Farseer
Farseer
5 Wraith Guard in a Waveserpent (Scatter Lasers, Surican Catapult, Holo Fields, Crystal Targetting Matrix, Vectored Engines)
10 Guardians with 3 Eldar Missile Launchers
10 Guardians with 3 Eldar Missile Launchers
6 Jetbikes
6 Jetbikes
6 Jetbikes
10 Swooping Hawks
10 Warp Spiders
10 Warp Spiders
Aegis Defense Line with Quad Gun
Aegis Defense Line with Quad Gun
It was vanguard deployment. I got master of Ambush, and thought long and hard about if I should infiltrate the Dimas or the Carnifexes. I ended up going with the Carnifexes as they give me a much, much more powerful alpha strike, and I had 1st turn.
On my first turn the Carnifexes killed 5 of the 6 artillery pieces, and one critical Guardian which took his warlord (manning the quad gun) out of coherence, and allowed my Flyrant to kill him. He rolled really poorly on his turn 2, and I only lost a few gargoyles, and the game went down hill for him from there. He conceded on turn 4.
The Dimas were clear under performers. They contributed nearly nothing. One spent the entire game running, because my shooting completely wiped out one flank. The other one failed a 6" charge (with fleet), and then made a charge and killed 5 jetbikes. Meanwhile, the Tervigon also failed a short charge and Kill 5 Jetbikes, and spawned 17 Gaunts.
No matter how low my expectations for the Dima's are, they still fail to meet them. Perhaps if I had infiltrated them instead, it would have been a different story. I'm still going to run them against a wraith themed list eventually, and I'll give JY2's flying circus with Dima's a shot as well, but my answer to your question, is yes, I've proxied them in 3 games so far. They failed to affect the outcome of any of the games in which they participated, and failed to make back 1/2 of their points in each game. They are not a useful unit; lacking speed and shooting, and reliability, and because my Meta is dominated by gunlines, I will not be purchasing the model.
[/spoiler]Did the Dimas underperform, or did you just over-perform with your Fexes? Kinda seems like they took out the vast majority and left scraps for everyone else.
You make a fair point. My Carnifexes Killed a ton of stuff. My Exocrine essentially made his points back, and got unlucky dying to warp spider overwatch. My Tervigon Made his points between killing 5 jet bikes and spawning 17 gants who did some stuff. My Flyrant was unkillable. Turn 1 he lost 3 hit points, he lasted for 3 turns on 1 hit point despite being shot at twice by a quad gun, and twice by a wave serpent, and once by 5 Wraith Guard. But he was trying that whole time to kill the wave serpent and failed. His main contribution was killing the warlord, and a psychic scream that hit wraith guard and Swooping Hawks, and my opponent rolled Box Cars twice which was epic.
Based on the lists and deployment, the Dima was bound to under perform. The only thing I thought they might contribute is smash the warp spiders. Unfortunately, 1 group of warp spiders never came in, and the other one knew to fear the Dima, so they came in on a flank and used their bonus moves to get far out of charge range from anything but the exocrine which they tried to kill.
This was a bad matchup for the Dima, but the reason he is not a useful unit is that there are many, many bad matchups for him. He is probably situationally useful (Orks?, Drop Pod Marines?). The only time he is going to shine is when you have an opponent that wants to close with you.
There is a demon player that runs 2 Great unclean ones, and 9 beasts of Nurgle. I'll run a Dima list against him eventually.
This was a bad matchup for the Dima, but the reason he is not a useful unit is that there are many, many bad matchups for him. He is probably situationally useful (Orks?, Drop Pod Marines?). The only time he is going to shine is when you have an opponent that wants to close with you.
This was a bad matchup for the Dima, but the reason he is not a useful unit is that there are many, many bad matchups for him. He is probably situationally useful (Orks?, Drop Pod Marines?). The only time he is going to shine is when you have an opponent that wants to close with you.
Which should be a 100% of Maelstrom games, no?
My game against eldar was 100% Maelstrom. That is the only reason the Dimas killed anything at all. Jet Bikes were flying around claiming objectives.
Inspired by a thread about Tyranid codex wishlists on another forum, I came up with an idea for fixing some of our space bug woes in a simpler way that may get more traction with our local clubs and stores. Rather than a fully homebrew codex, what about custom formations that focus on specific units we have issues with? They can be used independently and are easy to discuss before a game as they require a pretty small amount of new rules.
With that in mind I created a blank formation template based on the post-codex dataslates, and put together a PDF of 10 new formations. These are intended to help use poor or sub-par units, and fill in noticeable gaps in the army list (such as a lack of ground-based Skyfire and effective anti-armour). Included in these formations are:
The Swarmlord
Walkrants
Combat Warriors
Mycetic spores
Hive Guard
There's still some work in progress material, specifically the flavour text and artwork could do with some attention. But this should be the start of a more practical way to actually use your wishlist ideas - assuming the folks at your FLGS are as chill as mine
The document is available to download here - feedback is appreciated.
Anyone have the full range of Tyranid models? It would be fun if we could see a group pic, with all on them from smallest to largest/tallest in a line. That would be really helpfull for those of us that don't have access to all models cause we're still building our army.
Addaran wrote: Anyone have the full range of Tyranid models? It would be fun if we could see a group pic, with all on them from smallest to largest/tallest in a line. That would be really helpfull for those of us that don't have access to all models cause we're still building our army.
That depends...has anyone here had the misfortune of buying a pyrovore?
Addaran wrote: Anyone have the full range of Tyranid models? It would be fun if we could see a group pic, with all on them from smallest to largest/tallest in a line. That would be really helpfull for those of us that don't have access to all models cause we're still building our army.
That depends...has anyone here had the misfortune of buying a pyrovore?
I have one - it's decent quality finecast too! Came in a huge joblot of stuff from ebay. I painted it up, and after 3 years have yet to use it in a single game.
Addaran wrote: Anyone have the full range of Tyranid models? It would be fun if we could see a group pic, with all on them from smallest to largest/tallest in a line. That would be really helpfull for those of us that don't have access to all models cause we're still building our army.
That depends...has anyone here had the misfortune of buying a pyrovore?
I have one - it's decent quality finecast too! Came in a huge joblot of stuff from ebay. I painted it up, and after 3 years have yet to use it in a single game.
Isn't there a dataslate that uses them? Sorry... ...Ok, I'm better no...
Addaran wrote: Anyone have the full range of Tyranid models? It would be fun if we could see a group pic, with all on them from smallest to largest/tallest in a line. That would be really helpfull for those of us that don't have access to all models cause we're still building our army.
That depends...has anyone here had the misfortune of buying a pyrovore?
I'm selling a collection for a retiring player right now that included 2 metal Pyrovores. The first one sold for $35. The current one has a $10 bid on it. He was using it as a "Counts as" Biovore, and they look really similar.
SHUPPET wrote: I think missing the scatter and placing a 6/6/6 3+ In your opponents side of the field is never going to be wasted points. I think if you are taking it just for a reburrowing TftD you are obviously better with a Mawloc. Take the TftD for what it is, 50/50 chance of a Repeating S6 covering ignoring blast, or double that with 2, and 8x S6 Ap2 attacks on the charge for 280 pts, and 12 freaking T6 wounds that will either have to be dealt with (every shot pointed at a Mawloc is extremely efficient for you) or ignored giving them free reign to tarpit better and more efficiently than a Garg squad as well as doing a lot more damage, to a much broader range of targets.
A mawloc can tarpit better than a Gargoyle squad? I'm scouting models for expanding my small 800pt army to 1850 and I'd much prefer MCs over having to build and paint 20 gargoyles. But I don't mind going the garg route. My other 2 heavy slots are already filled with dakkafexes.
Can mawlocs tarpit better than a squad of gargoyles? how so? (I'm new to 40k 7e and Nids in general so I'm not bashing. I'm really curious)
Also what are good data slate to use? I keep hearing about Sky Blight but people keep saying its also not as good anymore. What are the top data slates now?
syypher wrote: Can mawlocs tarpit better than a squad of gargoyles? how so? (I'm new to 40k 7e and Nids in general so I'm not bashing. I'm really curious)
Point for point, Gargoyles are a much better tarpit. Perhaps 3 times as good. I think Shuppet was being a bit hyperbolic, and discounting gargoyles because they die easier to shooting.
syypher wrote: Also what are good data slate to use? I keep hearing about Sky Blight but people keep saying its also not as good anymore. What are the top data slates now?
There are three Tyranid dataslates. They each include 5 Tyranid formations. The formations break down something like this:
SHUPPET wrote: I think missing the scatter and placing a 6/6/6 3+ In your opponents side of the field is never going to be wasted points. I think if you are taking it just for a reburrowing TftD you are obviously better with a Mawloc. Take the TftD for what it is, 50/50 chance of a Repeating S6 covering ignoring blast, or double that with 2, and 8x S6 Ap2 attacks on the charge for 280 pts, and 12 freaking T6 wounds that will either have to be dealt with (every shot pointed at a Mawloc is extremely efficient for you) or ignored giving them free reign to tarpit better and more efficiently than a Garg squad as well as doing a lot more damage, to a much broader range of targets.
A mawloc can tarpit better than a Gargoyle squad? I'm scouting models for expanding my small 800pt army to 1850 and I'd much prefer MCs over having to build and paint 20 gargoyles. But I don't mind going the garg route. My other 2 heavy slots are already filled with dakkafexes.
Can mawlocs tarpit better than a squad of gargoyles? how so? (I'm new to 40k 7e and Nids in general so I'm not bashing. I'm really curious)
Also what are good data slate to use? I keep hearing about Sky Blight but people keep saying its also not as good anymore. What are the top data slates now?
The second one is most likely to be useful. Mawlocs can tarpit well because they have high Toughness, and good armor, in addition they can do some serious damage...but I don't nessisarily think they are Better. It's more of an additional feature.
I am one of the lone rebel bugs that has little fondness for Skyblight. It's plenty strong, but it does not suit my style. There are numerous batreps that show it in action, right here on Dakka.
syypher wrote: Can mawlocs tarpit better than a squad of gargoyles? how so? (I'm new to 40k 7e and Nids in general so I'm not bashing. I'm really curious)
Point for point, Gargoyles are a much better tarpit. Perhaps 3 times as good. I think Shuppet was being a bit hyperbolic, and discounting gargoyles because they die easier to shooting.
syypher wrote: Also what are good data slate to use? I keep hearing about Sky Blight but people keep saying its also not as good anymore. What are the top data slates now?
There are three Tyranid dataslates. They each include 5 Tyranid formations. The formations break down something like this:
Addaran wrote: Anyone have the full range of Tyranid models? It would be fun if we could see a group pic, with all on them from smallest to largest/tallest in a line. That would be really helpfull for those of us that don't have access to all models cause we're still building our army.
That depends...has anyone here had the misfortune of buying a pyrovore?
I'm selling a collection for a retiring player right now that included 2 metal Pyrovores. The first one sold for $35. The current one has a $10 bid on it. He was using it as a "Counts as" Biovore, and they look really similar.
With the new base size they on the biovores they would do real well.
Iechine: Those dataslates look neat. I like where you're going with them, house rules are usually the best rules.
Regarding Pyrovores: I have 3 (Metal, bought new, but at half price ) and I use them as Biovores because it's an awesome sculpt and deserves to be used!
Has anyone actually played the lictor forest brood?
IF...your opponent cannot ignore cover, they're ridiculous. I made my opponent fire half their army into it and then still had enough lictors alive to roll a unit or two in combat.
ductvader wrote: Has anyone actually played the lictor forest brood?
IF...your opponent cannot ignore cover, they're ridiculous. I made my opponent fire half their army into it and then still had enough lictors alive to roll a unit or two in combat.
And Deathleaper's Assassin's Brood is moderate.
Synaptic Swarm is not "very weak"
Where did all of these "ratings" come from?
The ratings came from the Top of my head, and I haven't used Lictor Forest brood yet. I have 2 Lictors, but will be ordering deathleaper and 3 more next month, so I will give it a shot eventually.
Deathleaper's assassin brood took a serious nerf from 7th. I figured that dropped its usefulness enough to drop it from moderate to weak.
As far as Synaptic Swarm. Perhaps it should have been "weak" instead of very weak. It requires you to take a lot of models that you would not otherwise take, and gives you limited benifit for doing so. It was unclear to me what list it would work well in. Perhaps large point lists that need extra synapse, or multiple formation lists for Endless Swarm. Perhaps you could share a list with Synaptic Swarm that you think would work well.
ETA. Part of the problem with Lictor Forest Brood is nobody in my meta ever willingly uses a forest. I have to choose the terrain if I want it to include a forest, and it feels wrong picking terrain to make my army stronger.
I use my forest brood to kill centurions, close deployment, rending, and centurion fire is highly ineffective against them.
I can agree with "generic weak" for synaptic swarm. I just didn't think the cost to benefit classified them as very weak like manufactorum genestealers.
(Though don't get me wrong, I have had success with factory stealers and especially the hunting pack<-would not rate either as strong)
ductvader wrote: ETA. Part of the problem with Lictor Forest Brood is nobody in my meta ever willingly uses a forest. I have to choose the terrain if I want it to include a forest, and it feels wrong picking terrain to make my army stronger.
People don't feel bad taking advantage of rules involving terrain when they can (such as placing units on the 2nd story of a ruin so our Mawlocs can't hurt them) so I wouldn't worry so much about throwing a forest or two on the table. If you're REALLY worried about negative perception...start playing with forests a few games BEFORE fielding the lector forest brood. It won't feel so obvious...
My only issue is I don't have enough Lictor models...I like, in theory, both the Forest Brood and the Deathleaper Assassin Squad.
ductvader wrote: ETA. Part of the problem with Lictor Forest Brood is nobody in my meta ever willingly uses a forest. I have to choose the terrain if I want it to include a forest, and it feels wrong picking terrain to make my army stronger.
People don't feel bad taking advantage of rules involving terrain when they can (such as placing units on the 2nd story of a ruin so our Mawlocs can't hurt them) so I wouldn't worry so much about throwing a forest or two on the table. If you're REALLY worried about negative perception...start playing with forests a few games BEFORE fielding the lector forest brood. It won't feel so obvious...
My only issue is I don't have enough Lictor models...I like, in theory, both the Forest Brood and the Deathleaper Assassin Squad.
If someone added a multi-level terrain because he was bringing Devastators, and feared I might have a Mawloc, I would be pissed. Picking Terrain for advantage seems wrong.
Thanks everyone for helping me with whats in and out of Tyranids now. (For those of you just tuning in I loved playing Nids but the last time I really played 40k Nids was 5e)
I got a few more questions...
1) The Hive Crone... is it usually taken for the Haywire? That's it's main purpose right? And it's also a FMC for awesomeness? Does anyone take Harpies?
2) How are Genestealer Broods now a days? I LOVED running them in a congo line back to something that gave them cover back in 5th. They tore ANYTHING I threw them at up! I didn't have too much a hard time getting them into CC but with all the changes and insane weight of fire power across the board now... it seems more impossible.
3) How many Gargoyle Broods for Tarpitting? And how many in each Brood? @1500? @1850? I'm wanting to build TAC lists and Gargoyles seem like the best way to keep something bogged down a couple turns. How many should I have? Will 2x 15 be enough to take shots going in and still hold my target for a turn or 2? This is for general purposes so I don't really have any examples of what I'd be holding with them.
4) How many Flyrants is enough @1850 to keep my opponent honest and pressured? I was thinking 3. But I'd have to ally another Tyranid detachment which I don't mind.
5) How do you guys win on objectives for those of you that use Ripper Swarms as your Troop choices? I know they have Objective secured but with just 2x min units to maximize the rest of our lists... if any of our enemies Objective Secured Super Scoring units survive we'd have a hard time contesting... Seems like Ripper Swarms could easily just be removed and then they proceed to win by 1 Obj.
SHUPPET wrote: I think missing the scatter and placing a 6/6/6 3+ In your opponents side of the field is never going to be wasted points. I think if you are taking it just for a reburrowing TftD you are obviously better with a Mawloc. Take the TftD for what it is, 50/50 chance of a Repeating S6 covering ignoring blast, or double that with 2, and 8x S6 Ap2 attacks on the charge for 280 pts, and 12 freaking T6 wounds that will either have to be dealt with (every shot pointed at a Mawloc is extremely efficient for you) or ignored giving them free reign to tarpit better and more efficiently than a Garg squad as well as doing a lot more damage, to a much broader range of targets.
A mawloc can tarpit better than a Gargoyle squad? I'm scouting models for expanding my small 800pt army to 1850 and I'd much prefer MCs over having to build and paint 20 gargoyles. But I don't mind going the garg route. My other 2 heavy slots are already filled with dakkafexes.
Can mawlocs tarpit better than a squad of gargoyles? how so? (I'm new to 40k 7e and Nids in general so I'm not bashing. I'm really curious)
Also what are good data slate to use? I keep hearing about Sky Blight but people keep saying its also not as good anymore. What are the top data slates now?
The second one is most likely to be useful. Mawlocs can tarpit well because they have high Toughness, and good armor, in addition they can do some serious damage...but I don't nessisarily think they are Better. It's more of an additional feature.
I am one of the lone rebel bugs that has little fondness for Skyblight. It's plenty strong, but it does not suit my style. There are numerous batreps that show it in action, right here on Dakka.
Pretty much what pinecone said. The Garg might actually be the better all round tarpit in a vacuum where we just look at what tarp it's the best, in practice though the Mawloc fulfills so much more utlity and threat power that I feel it's the better tarpit. Then taking into account competitive nids really has nothing but the minimum amount of infantry, taking a 20+ Garg blob is going to die much easier than everything and just gives a really cost effective target for flames or other dedicated anti-infantry, that would otherwise be wasted on MCs. Mawloc being the most cost effective MC in your army to shoot at, it's no hyperbole when I say Mawloc is the better tarpit unit, the logic behind it is just rather a bit indirectly related to the differences between the models, but hopefully this helps clear up my standpoint on it as this May not all apply to you, and if it doesn't than it's quite possible Gargoyles are the unit you are looking for in your build! Use your better judgement (Mawlocs are great though )
SHUPPET wrote: I think missing the scatter and placing a 6/6/6 3+ In your opponents side of the field is never going to be wasted points. I think if you are taking it just for a reburrowing TftD you are obviously better with a Mawloc. Take the TftD for what it is, 50/50 chance of a Repeating S6 covering ignoring blast, or double that with 2, and 8x S6 Ap2 attacks on the charge for 280 pts, and 12 freaking T6 wounds that will either have to be dealt with (every shot pointed at a Mawloc is extremely efficient for you) or ignored giving them free reign to tarpit better and more efficiently than a Garg squad as well as doing a lot more damage, to a much broader range of targets.
A mawloc can tarpit better than a Gargoyle squad? I'm scouting models for expanding my small 800pt army to 1850 and I'd much prefer MCs over having to build and paint 20 gargoyles. But I don't mind going the garg route. My other 2 heavy slots are already filled with dakkafexes.
Can mawlocs tarpit better than a squad of gargoyles? how so? (I'm new to 40k 7e and Nids in general so I'm not bashing. I'm really curious)
Also what are good data slate to use? I keep hearing about Sky Blight but people keep saying its also not as good anymore. What are the top data slates now?
The second one is most likely to be useful. Mawlocs can tarpit well because they have high Toughness, and good armor, in addition they can do some serious damage...but I don't nessisarily think they are Better. It's more of an additional feature.
I am one of the lone rebel bugs that has little fondness for Skyblight. It's plenty strong, but it does not suit my style. There are numerous batreps that show it in action, right here on Dakka.
Pretty much what pinecone said. The Garg might actually be the better all round tarpit in a vacuum where we just look at what tarp it's the best, in practice though the Mawloc fulfills so much more utlity and threat power that I feel it's the better tarpit. Then taking into account competitive nids really has nothing but the minimum amount of infantry, taking a 20+ Garg blob is going to die much easier than everything and just gives a really cost effective target for flames or other dedicated anti-infantry, that would otherwise be wasted on MCs. Mawloc being the most cost effective MC in your army to shoot at, it's no hyperbole when I say Mawloc is the better tarpit unit, the logic behind it is just rather a bit indirectly related to the differences between the models, but hopefully this helps clear up my standpoint on it as this May not all apply to you, and if it doesn't than it's quite possible Gargoyles are the unit you are looking for in your build! Use your better judgement (Mawlocs are great though )
List some units that you are likely to tarpit and I will run the stats, and we can use math to settle it.
Here are some units I regularly tarpit.
Riptide
Broadsides (3 man squad)
Devastators (5 man Squad)
Wraith Knight
Crisis Suites (3 Man squad)
Long Fangs (5 man squad)
Marine Command Squads (5 man squad)
Marine Command Squad with Vulkan
Marine Command Squad with Chapter Master
Broadsides with Buffmander
Sternguard (10 Man Squad)
Thunderfire Cannon
Dreadnought
Ironclad Deradnought
Librarian Dreadnoughts
Obliterators
Defilers (or other CSM Walkers)
War Walkers
Automatically Appended Next Post:
syypher wrote: Thanks everyone for helping me with whats in and out of Tyranids now. (For those of you just tuning in I loved playing Nids but the last time I really played 40k Nids was 5e)
I got a few more questions...
1) The Hive Crone... is it usually taken for the Haywire? That's it's main purpose right? And it's also a FMC for awesomeness? Does anyone take Harpies?
Haywire is not the main reason to take the Crone. It is S8 AP2 vector strike, and S6 AP4 Flame template. I ran a game with 2 Crones last night. I only fired 3 of the 8 Haywire missiles all game, and one was in overwatch against a charging Marine character.
syypher wrote: 2) How are Genestealer Broods now a days? I LOVED running them in a congo line back to something that gave them cover back in 5th. They tore ANYTHING I threw them at up! I didn't have too much a hard time getting them into CC but with all the changes and insane weight of fire power across the board now... it seems more impossible.
Genestealers are not a good unit. They cost way, way too much. They die to a stiff wind, and are too slow to be all that useful as an assault unit. If you want to use them, take a large squad (15-20). Infiltrate it into a ruins midfield and conga-line it back to your deployment zone so that they get Shrouded from a venomthrope, and watch out for flamers.
syypher wrote: 3) How many Gargoyle Broods for Tarpitting? And how many in each Brood? @1500? @1850? I'm wanting to build TAC lists and Gargoyles seem like the best way to keep something bogged down a couple turns. How many should I have? Will 2x 15 be enough to take shots going in and still hold my target for a turn or 2? This is for general purposes so I don't really have any examples of what I'd be holding with them.
I almost always run 1 squad of 20. That usually gets you a screen that can cover your entire army for deployment, and one good tarpit. As the number in the squad goes down, the tarpit effectiveness falls as well. 2 squads of 15 might work, but remember gargoyles are not going to be doing much damage. You might consider going with 1 squad, and a Squad of Hormagaunts who are nearly as fast, better in CC, and have objective secured.
syypher wrote: 4) How many Flyrants is enough @1850 to keep my opponent honest and pressured? I was thinking 3. But I'd have to ally another Tyranid detachment which I don't mind.
It depends entirely on your meta. In my meta, two Flyrants overwhelm almost any opponent I run into that isn't Tau. No-one is running anti-air in my area at all for some reason. I would say that for a Top tier Tyranid list you need 2. 3 is also good. If you take 4, you are running a slightly less balanced list that will have great success against many, many armies, but also has more hard counters, because you don't have enough left for support units like tarpitting gargoyles.
syypher wrote: 5) How do you guys win on objectives for those of you that use Ripper Swarms as your Troop choices? I know they have Objective secured but with just 2x min units to maximize the rest of our lists... if any of our enemies Objective Secured Super Scoring units survive we'd have a hard time contesting... Seems like Ripper Swarms could easily just be removed and then they proceed to win by 1 Obj.
I disagree with the ripper love. Every single game I've ever taken rippers, I've regretted it. Gants are so much better. That being said, Tyranid troops suck. They are terrible. Really, Really bad. Thankfully, everything is scoring. In an objective game, you might manage to steal one objective away from someone with objective secured, but mainly you will be scoring by eliminating enemy units and then claiming objectives with non-troops.
I honestly think that a good portion of the Ripper love is about playing faster. They are fewer models, and deep strike, so you don't have to deploy them, or move them on early turns. Since gants aren't very good to begin with taken an even worse unit in exchange for a faster game is probably a trade off that many people are willing to take. There is also a band wagoning effect going on, I expect game experiences to start turning people back to Gants eventually.
Here is a battle report by WikkedTiki against a Tau opponent that he has had trouble against. Here is the advice that I gave him before his matchup:
jy2 wrote:
WikkedTiki wrote:Hey man, just read quite a few of your articles for bugs and was asking for some quick opinions. I am new to Warhammer 40k (2-3 months) but have already amassed a good amount of bugs.
I typically play against the same person more often than not and he has a strong Tau army. I have his army list and was wondering if you would mind giving some advice on a list/strategy.
Some typical strategies:
1. You need speed against Tau. A walking list will just get shot off the table, so you need to be able to minimize the as much firepower from him as possible. Thus, I usually go for 1) fast units or 2) units with some range. Fast units include flying Monstrous Creatures and the mawloc. Units with range include biovores. Another unit you can consider is the tyrannofex because of his resiliency.
2. Shooting is the way to go against Tau. It's just too hard to get into assault with them and still be able to survive his firepower (and then Overwatch). I recommend dakka flyrants (with 2x TL-Brainleech Devourers), dakkafexes, biovores and mawlocs. All of these units have the ability to hurt Tau from a distance and still assault them when the opportunity arises (except for the biovores).
If you want more detailed strategies, go ahead and send me his list.
And so here is his battle report. Just wanted to share it with all the bug players who have been having trouble against Tau, one of our harder matchups. Cheers.
Nice! It did well, however i felt like rippers were a waste. I am definitely considering running a Malanthrope since all our places in CO dont care if you run FW or not.
Well, some games rippers will be a waste, in others they could potentially when you the game deep striking and hiding in terrain to hold an objective.
Similar to the Mawloc. Can be an absolute waste of points, but other times is MVB... the thing is these units keep your opponent thinking because they can be game changers. Sometimes against us though
WikkedTiki wrote: Nice! It did well, however i felt like rippers were a waste. I am definitely considering running a Malanthrope since all our places in CO dont care if you run FW or not.
Malanthropes are boss. Most bug players who were running zoan + venom (like me and a lot of others) are now converting to 1 malanthrope instead. Some are even running 2 malans for redundancy. They are just sooooo good.
As for rippers, personally for me, it is more of a play-style preference more than anything else. Tervigon + 30 termagants are still a good choice and I do run that combo on occassions. But the main reasons why I am running rippers nowadays is because:
1. It gives me more flexibility. I like to play the denial game and having your ObSec troops in reserves able to come anywhere gives my army a lot of flexibility.
2. I run them as cheap scoring options so that I can focus the majority of my points on my offensive units. 2 units of deepstriking rippers are 90-pts. Tervigon + 30-gants are 315-pts minimum. That is 225+ pts I could use to go towards more offense in my list.
3. Usually in our area, we run with the Bay Area Open (BAO) scenarios, which has Eternal War as a Primary scenario and Maelstrom Missions as a Secondary scenario. The mobility of deepstriking rippers really help with the Secondary scenario because you really need mobility of ObSec units in Maelstrom missions. So the use of rippers are designed to work better in the scenarios that we usually play here.
jy2 wrote: 1. It gives me more flexibility. I like to play the denial game and having your ObSec troops in reserves able to come anywhere gives my army a lot of flexibility.
I would argue that it gives you less flexibility. Perhaps 1 or 2 squads of Rippers, but what about if you need a troop available on turn 1? What if you need something to Eat overwatch for an MC, or screen a Carnifex. Rippers do exactly 1 thing. They Deep strike. Sometimes they hit, sometimes they don't, but they are never going to do more than that for you, so taking only rippers in your army locks you into one strategy that isn't always going to work. You lose flexibility, not gain it.
jy2 wrote: 2. I run them as cheap scoring options so that I can focus the majority of my points on my offensive units. 2 units of deepstriking rippers are 90-pts. Tervigon + 30-gants are 315-pts minimum. That is 225+ pts I could use to go towards more offense in my list.
I consider Rippers bad, but Tervigons are worse. If those are your only two options, I don't blame you for running Rippers. But there is no reason that has to be. Consider for instance: 10 TGants + 10 HGants. The same price as Rippers, plus they can screen you on turn 1, they can get support from the Malanthrope, and they are more of an offensive threat / tarpit. If someone decides to shoot at them, they are choosing not to shoot at more valuable units. Or 10 HGaunts + 3 Rippers. 5 points more, and you've still got your deep striking troop, but you've also got more deployment flexibility, and early game scoring options. I agree with you that Rippers are cheap. But Gants are also cheap. And, unlike Rippers, gants can contribute throughout the game instead of only at the end, and unlike Rippers they can do so reliably.
[Rant]The Tervigon: We've got to get away from 5th edition thinking where Tervigons were boss. They are over costed, and extremely so if you are taking them with the Gaunt tax. Outflanking Devil gants is an attempt to turn lemons into lemonade, but still does not justify the Tervigon. Putting Crushing Claws on a Tervigon gives it a role, but there are other, cheaper options that can fill that role. For the same price as a Tervigon you could take a Dakkafex + 11 Termagants. Which seems like a better usage of your points? The Tervigon is a remnant of an age that is passed. Perhaps we can recall fondly the exploits of the Tervigon, but in 7th edition we cannot recreate them. It is time we let go, and forever banish the idea that a Tervigon is a competitive troop selection for a Tyranid list.[/Rant]
tag8833 wrote: I would argue that it gives you less flexibility. Perhaps 1 or 2 squads of Rippers, but what about if you need a troop available on turn 1? What if you need something to Eat overwatch for an MC, or screen a Carnifex. Rippers do exactly 1 thing. They Deep strike. Sometimes they hit, sometimes they don't, but they are never going to do more than that for you, so taking only rippers in your army locks you into one strategy that isn't always going to work. You lose flexibility, not gain it.
They don't have to Deep Strike - they have the option to.
and unlike Rippers they can do so reliably.
I think Rippers are pretty reliable actually. Even if they scatter it's rarely so far that the unit can't contribute.
[Rant]The Tervigon: We've got to get away from 5th edition thinking where Tervigons were boss. They are over costed, and extremely so if you are taking them with the Gaunt tax. Outflanking Devil gants is an attempt to turn lemons into lemonade, but still does not justify the Tervigon. Putting Crushing Claws on a Tervigon gives it a role, but there are other, cheaper options that can fill that role. For the same price as a Tervigon you could take a Dakkafex + 11 Termagants. Which seems like a better usage of your points? The Tervigon is a remnant of an age that is passed. Perhaps we can recall fondly the exploits of the Tervigon, but in 7th edition we cannot recreate them. It is time we let go, and forever banish the idea that a Tervigon is a competitive troop selection for a Tyranid list.[/Rant]
jy2 wrote: 1. It gives me more flexibility. I like to play the denial game and having your ObSec troops in reserves able to come anywhere gives my army a lot of flexibility.
I would argue that it gives you less flexibility. Perhaps 1 or 2 squads of Rippers, but what about if you need a troop available on turn 1? What if you need something to Eat overwatch for an MC, or screen a Carnifex. Rippers do exactly 1 thing. They Deep strike. Sometimes they hit, sometimes they don't, but they are never going to do more than that for you, so taking only rippers in your army locks you into one strategy that isn't always going to work. You lose flexibility, not gain it.
I usually run the bastion and put an objective behind it so I never really need my troops on the table. The bastion will always be claiming that objective (or my malanthrope inside). But let's say for the sake of argument, I don't deploy my objective hidden behind my bastion. If I really needed to, I can always deploy 1 unit of rippers on the table behind BLOS terrain (assuming I will put my objective there if I don't put it behind the bastion). As for eating Overwatch, I usually play a shooty Tyranid build (unless I am trying out the dimachaerons) so I don't really think about assault until the opportunity presents itself where I can assault relatively safely without losing my 150+ pt MC after assaulting a screening rhino or something like that. Besides, I will be softening up my target with shooting rather than doing a suicide charge.
Whatever unit is going to charge my "carnifex" (or any other MC) will be doing so after I fire my entire army at it. And then they will probably be charging into my MC out of position relative to my objectives, which means I actually wouldn't care if they charged it. It would just take his assault units more out of position. But more importantly, if I build an assault-based Tyranid list, you can be sure I will be including gargoyles to be used both as a pinning unit (to pin the enemy down) and as a screening unit.
Lastly, rippers deepstrike in and they don't just do "nothing". Ignore them if you want and let them wrack up Maelstrom points as they land on objectives and probably in cover. More likely, you will have to dedicate resources to try to take them out. That means less resources (i.e. "guns") to try to take out my herd of MC's and FMC's coming your way. But more realisically, in non-Maelstrom missions, I will use my Comms Relay to try to keep them in reserves for as long as possible. Leaving about 90-pts of troops in reserves is no biggie to me.
jy2 wrote: 2. I run them as cheap scoring options so that I can focus the majority of my points on my offensive units. 2 units of deepstriking rippers are 90-pts. Tervigon + 30-gants are 315-pts minimum. That is 225+ pts I could use to go towards more offense in my list.
I consider Rippers bad, but Tervigons are worse. If those are your only two options, I don't blame you for running Rippers. But there is no reason that has to be. Consider for instance: 10 TGants + 10 HGants. The same price as Rippers, plus they can screen you on turn 1, they can get support from the Malanthrope, and they are more of an offensive threat / tarpit. If someone decides to shoot at them, they are choosing not to shoot at more valuable units. Or 10 HGaunts + 3 Rippers. 5 points more, and you've still got your deep striking troop, but you've also got more deployment flexibility, and early game scoring options. I agree with you that Rippers are cheap. But Gants are also cheap. And, unlike Rippers, gants can contribute throughout the game instead of only at the end, and unlike Rippers they can do so reliably.
I consider all Tyranid troops as adding value to the army. But each has its specific uses. Tervigon + termagants are no worse than deepstriking rippers who are no worse than 10 termies + 10 hormies. It all depends on what type of play-style you like. For instance, if you play a walking, shooting tyranid army where most of the bugs are advancing together, than taking screening units to also provide cover makes sense. If you are playing in a meta where you need a lot of ObSec units to combat other ObSec armies, then the tervigon makes a lot of sense. Or if you are playing a denial army like Skyblight where the majority of your army is in the air and there really are no ground targets for your opponent to pick off, then deepstriking rippers really make sense. It's not so much which troops are the best, it's really which troops are the best fit for the playstyle you want to play.
Tervigon + termagants are no worse than deepstriking rippers who are no worse than 10 termies + 10 hormies. It all depends on what type of play-style you like. How instance, if you play a walking, shooting tyranid army where most of the bugs are advancing together, than taking screening units to also provide cover makes sense. If you are playing in a meta where you need a lot of ObSec units to combat other ObSec armies, then the tervigon makes a lot of sense. Or if you are playing a denial army like Skyblight where the majority of your army is in the air and there really are no ground targets for your opponent to pick off, then deepstriking rippers really make sense. It's not so much which troops are the best, it's really which troops are the best fit for the playstyle you want to play.
Actually, Tervigon+Termagants are much worse than deepstriking Rippers, who are much worse than two 10man squads of termies / horms. It's not all about playstyle, this is 40k, not all models are made equal and the balancing was very subject to human error. The only playstyle that encompasses taking a Tervigon at 2000 points, is "friendly". Rippers aren't as bad as Terriblegons sorry Tervigons, because they don't waste many more points than Terms, but Terms at least fill a role for 40 points a squad and give two points bonus cover to any of your MC's except any FMC's are too tall. The synapse-less scoring is so overrated, how many other armies do you see wasting points on useless troop choices just for this. They only really make sense in Skyblight imo, for a combination of reasons, least of which being target priority as it really isn't an investment that matters hugely either way (80 points of Termagants or 90 of Rippers, do you really need to build around keeping them alive?), its mainly because the Termagants won't be providing cover to anything relevant (a Venomthrope generally), and they will probably always be out of Synapse, making Rippers the next best option in this regard. Then again, Skyblight in general is just kneecapping the potential of the codex, so the fact that they work in Skyblight does not necessarily make them any more competitive in my eyes.
I will say Tervigon is good at 750-1000 points, where the Spawned Gants are much more relevant. Any higher and the effectiveness drops off, any lower and the investment cost is too much. He has his use. It's not in 2000 point games however :/ talk about liability.
Do y'all think that Living Artillery has surpassed Skyblight as the best formation with the changes to FMCs? I've been extremely underwhelmed with crones and harpies in the new edition.
Double flyrants, LAN formation, 4 dakkafexen, 1 or 2 malanthropes, and screening guants seems like a solid build to me.
Although, I think that if tournament gave players 3 options for "sources" this is the ultimate list Tyranids could use:
Dual Flyrants (one with e grubs)
Malanthrope
2 units of deep striking rippers
2 single dakkafexen
A mawloc
The Living Artillery Formation
And........
The Knight Errant
syypher wrote: What does the living artillery formation do? Where do you get the data slate for this?
Living Artillery
1 Excocrine, 3 Biovores, 1 Tyranid Warrior Brood and comes with Organic Bombardment which gives all ranged weapons pinning and the ability to re-roll scatter dice on blast and barrage weapons.
Chaplain Sam wrote: Do y'all think that Living Artillery has surpassed Skyblight as the best formation with the changes to FMCs? I've been extremely underwhelmed with crones and harpies in the new edition.
Double flyrants, LAN formation, 4 dakkafexen, 1 or 2 malanthropes, and screening guants seems like a solid build to me.
Thoughts?
Crones are still a useful unit. Basically a more mobile Tyrannofex. Harpies are the real tax of skyblight. On the other hand skyblight has Objective secured, recycling gargoyles. Since gargoyles are one of our better units, that is a very cool thing.
Living Artillery is the way I'm going, but I think Tourneys will still see Skyblight often. It blows people out, and there are few hard counters (Serpent spam, Tau). Tau is seeing a downward trend, and so the main fear is serpent spam. The reason Skyblight is likely to still perform better in tourneys is that it can rack up a much larger margin of victory than Living Artillery. In tourneys where battle points matter, skyblight will continue to perform well.
I'd question some of those. My thoughts and reasoning:
Lictor Forest Brood is awesome for 3+ cover saves and the ability to sneak in amongst enemy lines I'd say moderate to strong.
Manufactorum Genestealers - moderate. You're probably giving up First Blood by using them, because even with ruins, scattering 5-strong stealer broods in amongst the enemy line means at least one will get the flambe treatment. The thing that makes them worthwhile? Firstly as a distraction unit, secondly - whilst you can't add more stealers, you can add broodlords, and 5 broodlords in the enemy backfield from turn 1 is more of a threat than you're giving them credit for.
Deathleaper's assassin brood... yeah, Weak is fine. Paranoia and Ill-Discipline stacks well with It's After Me, but you need to have a means in hand for exploiting that leadership penalty or it's kind of pointless. Getting a Psychic Scream unit (winged tyrant, probably?) into the midst of the enemy makes it a lot nicer, but you can't rely on getting that power.
Broodlord's Hunting Pack - Incredibly strong. This formation alone makes genestealers a scary-ass unit. Note that unlike the manufactorum broods, they aren't using scout, or infiltrate, or deep strike, or entering from reserves. In short, they can deploy 7" from the enemy and ther is nothing preventing them from making a first turn charge (with the Horror from the broodlord removing initiative penalty for charging into terrain and preventing you firing overwatch). Plus they have preferred enemy on their first victims to boot. Put a ruin just outside the enemy deployment zone and watch what these boys do...
Gargoyle Biobombs - yeah...cool idea but seems a touch pointless. If I want spore mines in the right place, deep striking, biovores, or harpies strike me as a better idea.
Incubator Node - pointless. You've lost objective secured on the tervigon, it's more likely to run out, and you still need as many bugs to field one.
Synaptic Swarm - weak 6" synapse boost is good but you need so many to field the formation it becomes redundant. If you have that many warriors you have massively reduntant synapse cover anyway.
Skyblight Swarm - Strong - Essentially, you're taking a winged swarm and swapping 2 x 3 deep striking ripper swarms for 3 broods of respawning gargoyles (good) but you only get one tyrant (bad). I think a flyer-heavy combined arms detachment is still probably going to be better.
Living Artillery Node - Strong -blast weapon artillery is the best stuff bugs have, and rerolling scatter just makes it better.
Bioblast Node - Strong - makes dakkafexes killier. This is a scary thing.
Endless Swarm - weak - moderate with trygon support. This is a simple question: your termagants/hormagaunts get wiped out on turn 2. They respawn and enter from your board edge turn 3. How long do you expect it to be before they get close enough to the enemy to achieve anything? With a trygon tunnel or two in the enemy lines, this becomes a damn sight better, though, as you can express-line reinforcements into the centre of the battle.
Wrecker Node - weak - melee carnifex weak hence formation built around melee carnifex also weak.
Tyrant Node Moderate - if you take a tyrant on foot, do you not take tyrant guard and a venomthrope? Hence you have the components of this formation already and might as well get the effect of an expensive relic (the norn crown) for free...
Subterranean Swarm - Moderate. Trygons are okay, Mawlocs are awesome. Three simultaneous broods of raveners arriving simultaneously with no scatter will hurt like hell - provided you've spent points on ranged weapons.
Living Tide - too big for any normal game. Irrelevant.
Broodlord's Hunting Pack - Incredibly strong. This formation alone makes genestealers a scary-ass unit. Note that unlike the manufactorum broods, they aren't using scout, or infiltrate, or deep strike, or entering from reserves. In short, they can deploy 7" from the enemy and ther is nothing preventing them from making a first turn charge (with the Horror from the broodlord removing initiative penalty for charging into terrain and preventing you firing overwatch). Plus they have preferred enemy on their first victims to boot. Put a ruin just outside the enemy deployment zone and watch what these boys do...
I don't own the dataslates, but I thought that the Broodlord's Hunting pack read something along the lines of "Any unit in this Formation arriving from Reserve can set-up in any unoccupied Building or in Ruins as long as they are set-up more than 6" away from any enemy unit. " I'd love to be wrong...
A lot of those formations took a hit just from 7E appearing so soon after them. Most of the troop-heavy formations (Genestealers, Warriors, Tervigon and guant ones) had pretty weak bonuses to start with, and now definitely don't compensate for the loss of Objective Secured. Several formations also let you work around FOC limitations, but 7E makes the FOC far less restrictive anyway.
The amount of missed opportunities on the formations is annoying. Bioblast Node could have made Rupture T-Fexes actually viable against vehicles, but instead they get an unnecessary anti-infantry boost and a USR they can't use. Incubator Node actually makes the Tervigon less reliable as the ability isn't optional. Tyrant Node makes you buy extra Guards, but does nothing to make them more useful than just ablative Tyrant wounds. Warriors could do with a lot of boosts, but synapse range isn't really one of them.
The only point I disagree with there is the Wrecker Node... with our anti-armour abilities weakened melee Carnifexes are one of the more reliable options. Anything that buffs their HoW ability can only be good.
My issue deciding is looking back over the past couple tournament games, different lists benefited more against different opponents (Duh!). So the question ends up being who am I more likely to run into over a 5 game GT that has multiple CAD, FW and LoW authorized?
Against opponents Devourers cant hurt efficiently (AV13 walkers, Wraithknights) gargoyles are great and can tarpit or capture objectives. Against drop pod lists or bikes, weight of firepower probably trumps maybe locking a unit up for one turn.
In the end, is it really firepower that trumps all?
What made you decide to include the Mawloc, Lechine? I know they are a very cost effective source of T6 W6 and have a nice delivery/disruption platform, but some games they can really whiff bad. I'm just curious what your reasoning is, maybe I need to take another look at Mawlocs!
Mobility, blob destroyer, has hit and run, affects opponents movement, quickly threatens castling, lots of reasons. Its true she can whiff but she also deep strikes multiple times a game to either hit threats or grab/deny objectives at the last minute.
incubator node is bad because you spend all these points on troops yet get absolutely no OS from it, neither gaunts, spawned gaunts nor tervigon have it
syypher wrote: What does the living artillery formation do? Where do you get the data slate for this?
Living Artillery
1 Excocrine, 3 Biovores, 1 Tyranid Warrior Brood and comes with Organic Bombardment which gives all ranged weapons pinning and the ability to re-roll scatter dice on blast and barrage weapons.
syypher wrote: What does the living artillery formation do? Where do you get the data slate for this?
Living Artillery
1 Excocrine, 3 Biovores, 1 Tyranid Warrior Brood and comes with Organic Bombardment which gives all ranged weapons pinning and the ability to re-roll scatter dice on blast and barrage weapons.
Does the pinning bonus include weapons that are not in the Living Artillery data slate?
No. Formations only grant their bonuses to units within the formation itself. It's part of the perk of the formation.
The downsides of formations is, because they count as 'seperate' from your main force org chart that means no Objective Secured....
Which hits us pretty hard as some of the ones seeing use in 7th (apart from Skyblight) were strongly troop focuses. Manufactorum Stealers and Endless Swarm in particular. It also worsens some of the less favourable formations - Tervigon Brood Node and Synaptic Swarm in particular.
Don't forget that 'all ranged weapons' includes the Warrior's devourers/deathspitters and bio cannon. S5 Deathspitters with pinning is pretty sweet as well.
How do you guys normally run all your FMCs as far as placing them on the board or off? If you stay on you can go flight mode but can risk getting shot down without the need for getting 6s... But if you start off your severely weakened because of how many FMCs your running..
How do you guys normally run all your FMCs as far as placing them on the board or off? If you stay on you can go flight mode but can risk getting shot down without the need for getting 6s... But if you start off your severely weakened because of how many FMCs your running..
What do you guys do generally?
I very, very rarely reserve a FMC. Usually I can deploy them in range of a Venom with some cover giving them a 3+ or 2+ cover save. If it is a 3+, and I really fear for them I will Jink for a guaranteed 2+ so long as I haven't lost the venom. If that isn't good enough to keep them alive turn 1, you should look into adding void shields, or you might have deployed too close to tau.
How do you guys normally run all your FMCs as far as placing them on the board or off? If you stay on you can go flight mode but can risk getting shot down without the need for getting 6s... But if you start off your severely weakened because of how many FMCs your running..
What do you guys do generally?
I very, very rarely reserve a FMC. Usually I can deploy them in range of a Venom with some cover giving them a 3+ or 2+ cover save. If it is a 3+, and I really fear for them I will Jink for a guaranteed 2+ so long as I haven't lost the venom. If that isn't good enough to keep them alive turn 1, you should look into adding void shields, or you might have deployed too close to tau.
Does the Malanthrope do what the venom does? A lot of people replacing vemoms for them... Where do you get the digital book for the new Malanthrope rules too?
SBG wrote: It's Imperial Armour 4, version 2. I don't know if they're available in a digital format, however. Forge World will have the hard copy available
FW?! That stuff takes forever to ship and forever to arrive to the US.. and S&H is expensiveee... damn :/
So with the new assassins data slate out i'm now thinking that maybe a horrific allegiance is required?
First of all, look at the rules for the new Culexis, taken from BOLS;
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/08/40k-codex-uber-assassins-wow.html Culexis
Cullexus, WOW is now the boss he/she should always have been.....the only time you'll take psykers is to put bullets in his gun... 12" psychic blank bubble just nerfed invisibility to hell and once he can see you, you're going to have a psychic nightmare.....Psychic Death Stars meet your nemesis.
Life Drain- CC attacks ignores armour, instant death on a 6, instant death on any wound caused to a psyker (sorry tyranids).
Psychic Abomination - Psykers at -3Ld with 12", no warp charges generated within 12", powers only cast on a 6 within 12", invalidates blessings and maledictions within 12"!!!
Etherium war gear - attacks vs. culexus made at BS and WS 1 (though he also causes fear?)
Animas Spectrum - Similar to before one shot per mastery level within 12", but can now be boosted with up to 3 unspent warp charges. The mastery level thing does stop people from building brotherhood batteries though, as brotherhood of psykers count the unit as mastery level (x). The Animas Spectrum is 18" S5 AP1 assault X.
Now think about this;
Hive Tyrant within 6( range for Psychic Scream) of X Psyker - 3 LD from Shadows
Infiltrate a Culexsus Assasin within 12 ( staying 12 inches away from the Hive Tyrant, tricky I know.) - 3LD
That's already a psyker at - 6 LD so you if you psychic scream at them - that could be pretty brutal as it stands but if you really wanted to take it up a notch you could add in death leaper for a further D3 on the LD of a single character.
I guess, and for the games one of your 2 Flyrants don't roll Psychic Scream, your list is just hurt however many points that thing costs, and can no longer take a formation. Not to mention the numerous other situations that could easily turn this into wasted points
coredump wrote: Only works if the unit is made entirely of psykers. Otherwise they will use that Ld for the roll.
Not true, you target the unit yes but say there was a Psyker in that unit and it happened to have the highest LD then it would be effected.
e.g Coteaz in a unit of marines
Psychic scream @ -5 LD on the unit.
-8 with a Calexus Assasin.
with the rise of Psykers in the game I don't see how this is a bad idea.
granted it can be situational and if you come up against Tau or Necrons its XXX points wasted on the Calexus but he's still pretty difficult to hit and a scoring unit.
It's a bad idea not because Psykers aren't guaranteed opponents (although this doesn't help), its a bad idea because the chance of rolling Scream, casting it, and then applying it with all the LD mods in effect, seems horrendously low. Even the cards all went your way 50% of the time (they won't) that's 50% of games where you have thrown away your formation, and likely the cost of this guys points, which is likely going to cost you the game.
Iechine wrote: Didnt get much of a response a few pages back, but Im still debating these two lists.
[snip]
I like the second list better, but maybe swap the Mawloc for a third Carnifex. I like Mawlocs, but given the rest of the list I'm not sure you will really get much out of him him given you have four flying Tyrants up in the enemy's face and a third Carnifex will give more raw killing power (especially against high toughness/AV threats). Also maybe consider dropping one of the Ripper swarms for some more Gargoyles (should yield another 6-ish). I've found they work best in units of ~20 or so. Any less than that and they get gunned down too much to really tarpit anything significant for long and the added bodies help with bubble wrapping your slower moving units.
Wilson wrote: So with the new assassins data slate out i'm now thinking that maybe a horrific allegiance is required?
First of all, look at the rules for the new Culexis, taken from BOLS;
[snip]
Psychic Abomination - Psykers at -3Ld with 12", no warp charges generated within 12", powers only cast on a 6 within 12"
How much you willing to bet that's what they are going to do to Shadow in the Warp when the 7th edition book rolls around? Definitely fits with how it is described in the fluff...
Anyway, the league is restarting next week at 500 points. I have not had much experience at such a low point value with the 6th edition book so any advice would be welcome.
List #1: [Field Tested - 1 win, 1 loss]
Spoiler:
HQ: 1x Hive Tyrant with Scything Talons, Stranglethorn Cannon
TROOPS: 10x Hormagaunts
TROOPS: 10x Hormagaunts
HEAVY: 1x Exocrine
First test-list basically made with what I already had with me that was both based and fully painted. It worked out fairly well in the Maelstrom missions thanks to the Hormagaunts, but I'm a bit concerned about what to do if someone decides to be cheeky and bring a flyer, as only the Exocrine can really even attempt to hurt one... Also I did find lethality was a bit weak with this one, as the Hormagaunts don't have enough numbers to do anything other than objective grab (which they did well, to be fair).
List #2: [Untested]
Spoiler:
HQ: 1x Tervigon with Crushing Claws
TROOPS: 15x Termagants
TROOPS: 15x Termagants
HEAVY: 1x Exocrine
Same idea as above, but with Termagants instead. Bit more swarmy (which I like), but really slow moving and no warlord traits...
List #3: [Untested, Unbound]
Spoiler:
HQ: 1x Hive Tyrant with Wings, 2x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
FAST: 10x Gargoyles
FAST: 10x Gargoyles
FAST: 1x Harpy with twin-linked Heavy Venom Cannon (in-case-of-Quantum Shielding)
This is my "mean" list. Unbound is allowed at our group, but most people run normal armies for Objective Secured (only one person has managed to win with an unbound list so far since 7th has dropped, and in all cases the games were close so...). List has lots of fast-moving threats, though scoring might be a bit of an issue without OS and the two flying monsters. Not sure if I want to bring this though, as the purpose of the new point bracket is to encourage some of our new players to come play on league nights. As such, two flying monsters might be a bit overwhelming for someone who has just started their collection (not to mention in general).
Wilson wrote: So with the new assassins data slate out i'm now thinking that maybe a horrific allegiance is required?
First of all, look at the rules for the new Culexis, taken from BOLS;
[snip]
Psychic Abomination - Psykers at -3Ld with 12", no warp charges generated within 12", powers only cast on a 6 within 12"
How much you willing to bet that's what they are going to do to Shadow in the Warp when the 7th edition book rolls around? Definitely fits with how it is described in the fluff...
Nope. I'll bet GW would prefer "Shadows in the Warp" be exactly the way it is (nearly useless, and contradictory to the fluff), because if they wanted it fixed in the way you suggest, they would just FAQ it. The only reason not to FAQ it would be raging incompetence, and a lack of respect for their customers.... Well now I've convinced myself. You are probably right.
Just have the IA4 second ed... I want to know your tough about the new rules for the Mieotic Spore. I look at them and I found it not so bad but easy to kill.
If unbound is allowed just take 2 regen Tyrannofexes and a Zoanthrope, your entire army is cost effective Terminator wounds, likely regenerating, with insane anti-infantry potential, excellent AT with eGrubs + assault, and over the top durability. If other people are running battle forged you are unlikely to lose to anything that you could otherwise beat at all with this list.
In fact I think Tyrannofex is great at 500 points. Tervigon is considerable but quite an investment, walking Tyrant is another cheaper option to consider if you want to jam something beefier in a battle forged list. I really like the second list however and think I'll give it a go at 500 pts this weekend, except maybe eGrubs over the extra gants
My issue deciding is looking back over the past couple tournament games, different lists benefited more against different opponents (Duh!). So the question ends up being who am I more likely to run into over a 5 game GT that has multiple CAD, FW and LoW authorized?
Against opponents Devourers cant hurt efficiently (AV13 walkers, Wraithknights) gargoyles are great and can tarpit or capture objectives. Against drop pod lists or bikes, weight of firepower probably trumps maybe locking a unit up for one turn.
In the end, is it really firepower that trumps all?
I prefer List #2. Gargoyles are a great utility unit, especially for the times when S6 shots just aren't enough. I think it makes your list more TAC, whereas the first list is more about firepower. In any case, I am a sucker for versatility and I feel that List #2 is slightly more versatile/flexible.
fartherthanfar wrote: incubator node is bad because you spend all these points on troops yet get absolutely no OS from it, neither gaunts, spawned gaunts nor tervigon have it
or has this been fixed?
Yeah, it's been nerfed because none of the units in it have ObSec.
Then again, the trend is more formations and less ObSec. With the new 2 codex supplements out for Orks and Space Wolves, none of them have ObSec, but that doesn't mean those formations are bad. I think we really need to look into these formations again and not to just simply dismiss them.
Wilson wrote: So with the new assassins data slate out i'm now thinking that maybe a horrific allegiance is required?
First of all, look at the rules for the new Culexis, taken from BOLS;
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/08/40k-codex-uber-assassins-wow.html Culexis
Cullexus, WOW is now the boss he/she should always have been.....the only time you'll take psykers is to put bullets in his gun... 12" psychic blank bubble just nerfed invisibility to hell and once he can see you, you're going to have a psychic nightmare.....Psychic Death Stars meet your nemesis.
Life Drain- CC attacks ignores armour, instant death on a 6, instant death on any wound caused to a psyker (sorry tyranids).
Psychic Abomination - Psykers at -3Ld with 12", no warp charges generated within 12", powers only cast on a 6 within 12", invalidates blessings and maledictions within 12"!!!
Etherium war gear - attacks vs. culexus made at BS and WS 1 (though he also causes fear?)
Animas Spectrum - Similar to before one shot per mastery level within 12", but can now be boosted with up to 3 unspent warp charges. The mastery level thing does stop people from building brotherhood batteries though, as brotherhood of psykers count the unit as mastery level (x). The Animas Spectrum is 18" S5 AP1 assault X.
Now think about this;
Hive Tyrant within 6( range for Psychic Scream) of X Psyker - 3 LD from Shadows
Infiltrate a Culexsus Assasin within 12 ( staying 12 inches away from the Hive Tyrant, tricky I know.) - 3LD
That's already a psyker at - 6 LD so you if you psychic scream at them - that could be pretty brutal as it stands but if you really wanted to take it up a notch you could add in death leaper for a further D3 on the LD of a single character.
A couple of things to keep in mind.
Assassins will be Come the Apocalypse allies for bugs, meaning that the Culexus will also affect Tyranid psychic performance. Get your flyrants too close to the Culexus and he will be having problems getting his psychic powers off as well.
Secondly, make sure your local meta - or rather, your local tournaments - allow CoA allies. In friendly games, it's probably ok. But just check with TO's in your area if you are thinking of running this combo in a local tournament. Here in the Western USA, most tournaments that follow the BAO rules will not be able to run CoA allies.
Anyway, the league is restarting next week at 500 points. I have not had much experience at such a low point value with the 6th edition book so any advice would be welcome.
List #1: [Field Tested - 1 win, 1 loss]
Spoiler:
HQ: 1x Hive Tyrant with Scything Talons, Stranglethorn Cannon
TROOPS: 10x Hormagaunts
TROOPS: 10x Hormagaunts
HEAVY: 1x Exocrine
First test-list basically made with what I already had with me that was both based and fully painted. It worked out fairly well in the Maelstrom missions thanks to the Hormagaunts, but I'm a bit concerned about what to do if someone decides to be cheeky and bring a flyer, as only the Exocrine can really even attempt to hurt one... Also I did find lethality was a bit weak with this one, as the Hormagaunts don't have enough numbers to do anything other than objective grab (which they did well, to be fair).
List #2: [Untested]
Spoiler:
HQ: 1x Tervigon with Crushing Claws
TROOPS: 15x Termagants
TROOPS: 15x Termagants
HEAVY: 1x Exocrine
Same idea as above, but with Termagants instead. Bit more swarmy (which I like), but really slow moving and no warlord traits...
List #3: [Untested, Unbound]
Spoiler:
HQ: 1x Hive Tyrant with Wings, 2x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
FAST: 10x Gargoyles
FAST: 10x Gargoyles
FAST: 1x Harpy with twin-linked Heavy Venom Cannon (in-case-of-Quantum Shielding)
This is my "mean" list. Unbound is allowed at our group, but most people run normal armies for Objective Secured (only one person has managed to win with an unbound list so far since 7th has dropped, and in all cases the games were close so...). List has lots of fast-moving threats, though scoring might be a bit of an issue without OS and the two flying monsters. Not sure if I want to bring this though, as the purpose of the new point bracket is to encourage some of our new players to come play on league nights. As such, two flying monsters might be a bit overwhelming for someone who has just started their collection (not to mention in general).
Are you set with those lists? Can you change them? And are FW allowed?
Tervigon + termagants are no worse than deepstriking rippers who are no worse than 10 termies + 10 hormies. It all depends on what type of play-style you like. How instance, if you play a walking, shooting tyranid army where most of the bugs are advancing together, than taking screening units to also provide cover makes sense. If you are playing in a meta where you need a lot of ObSec units to combat other ObSec armies, then the tervigon makes a lot of sense. Or if you are playing a denial army like Skyblight where the majority of your army is in the air and there really are no ground targets for your opponent to pick off, then deepstriking rippers really make sense. It's not so much which troops are the best, it's really which troops are the best fit for the playstyle you want to play.
Actually, Tervigon+Termagants are much worse than deepstriking Rippers, who are much worse than two 10man squads of termies / horms. It's not all about playstyle, this is 40k, not all models are made equal and the balancing was very subject to human error. The only playstyle that encompasses taking a Tervigon at 2000 points, is "friendly". Rippers aren't as bad as Terriblegons sorry Tervigons, because they don't waste many more points than Terms, but Terms at least fill a role for 40 points a squad and give two points bonus cover to any of your MC's except any FMC's are too tall. The synapse-less scoring is so overrated, how many other armies do you see wasting points on useless troop choices just for this. They only really make sense in Skyblight imo, for a combination of reasons, least of which being target priority as it really isn't an investment that matters hugely either way (80 points of Termagants or 90 of Rippers, do you really need to build around keeping them alive?), its mainly because the Termagants won't be providing cover to anything relevant (a Venomthrope generally), and they will probably always be out of Synapse, making Rippers the next best option in this regard. Then again, Skyblight in general is just kneecapping the potential of the codex, so the fact that they work in Skyblight does not necessarily make them any more competitive in my eyes.
I will say Tervigon is good at 750-1000 points, where the Spawned Gants are much more relevant. Any higher and the effectiveness drops off, any lower and the investment cost is too much. He has his use. It's not in 2000 point games however :/ talk about liability.
I don't know what your problem is with the tervigon. He must have burnt out spawning on the very 1st turn with you in your games or something. You need to show him some more lurv.
In the previous edition, the tervigon was just OP. He was so good it wasn't even funny. In this edition, while he did get nerfed greatly compared to previous edition, he's still a decent unit. Just being a T6 6W ObSec unit that acts as a Synapse anchor in your backfield (or even midfield for the more aggressive 'gons) gives you a decent foundation for your homebase. And while it gets pricey with another 30 termagants, that's another 30 fearless bodies that will discourage many opponents from going after your objectives.
Add to the fact that he now gets 2 psychic powers, can take crushing claws and egrubs for some respectable AT and can be outflanked and you get a unit that is actually quite flexible.
You just need to design your list around the tervigon as a foundation and not to just include him as an afterthought to your list.
Thank you guys for all the help! It's been really good hearing all the view points from the more experienced Nids players here in the group! Makes me A LOT more confident when I'm buying models to start my army off into the 1850 range.
I got another question... I'd like to know if there was discussion on this in depth already, if so, what was the "summary" of it all.
Q: Devourer Termagants 10-15 per unit vs Deep Striking Ripper Swarms for Troops @ 1500 and @1850? It seems like you get a lot more punch out of the rest of your list but loose a lot of objective secured. What have you guys been running/testing and how successful was it?
I like that Termagants can actually do good work against regular troops, but I wouldn't really say they are a tarpit unless I run a HUGE squad of them but I'm planning to run just 10-15 per squad. Then, I also like that Rippers + DS is only 45pts which allows me to fill up the rest of my 1850 list with 1760 of punching power.
I think 2 3 man units of Warriors with a cannon each for the same price outclasses it in practically every manner. Crushing Claws being a terrible upgrade, and Tervigon being one the most cost effecient units to shoot at in the dex even makes eGrubs unreliable.
I think he was overpowered last edition, underpowered this one - I do however think he is actually balanced at <1000 pts where his spawns add a larger percentage to your army size, his versatility is more relevant and his durability more tanky.
If unbound is allowed just take 2 regen Tyrannofexes and a Zoanthrope, your entire army is cost effective Terminator wounds, likely regenerating, with insane anti-infantry potential, excellent AT with eGrubs + assault, and over the top durability. If other people are running battle forged you are unlikely to lose to anything that you could otherwise beat at all with this list. In fact I think Tyrannofex is great at 500 points. Tervigon is considerable but quite an investment, walking Tyrant is another cheaper option to consider if you want to jam something beefier in a battle forged list.
Yes unbound is allowed, though if I remember right the league is requiring unbound lists to still bring an HQ (need to check). I hadn't thought about the Tyrannofex for such a small game. Could definitely give that a try.
Are you set with those lists? Can you change them? And are FW allowed?
Lists are fully changeable. The league has generally just allowed people to bring what they wish each week, so I can tweak as necessary (though they request that our lists be built prior - both to prevent tailoring and to save time). Forgeword is fully allowed. One of our old regulars was running the Siege of Vraks chaos army and a couple people have some forgeworld items. The only restrictions are if you want to bring a Lord of War it has to be the official model and must be painted.
Sadly I don't have a Malanthrope (yet - shop owner will be doing a forgeworld order sooner or later) so I won't be able to run the first list. Any particular reason the first list uses Biovores while the second has an Exocrine? I like and have both units, just curious as to the reasoning seeing as the overall construction is similar.
We'll I think TFex is best in small points games thx to crazy durability and excellent versatility, probably take regen unless you are running 2 tho just to secure the regen investment
Iechine wrote: Didnt get much of a response a few pages back, but Im still debating these two lists. [snip]
I like the second list better, but maybe swap the Mawloc for a third Carnifex. I like Mawlocs, but given the rest of the list I'm not sure you will really get much out of him him given you have four flying Tyrants up in the enemy's face and a third Carnifex will give more raw killing power (especially against high toughness/AV threats). Also maybe consider dropping one of the Ripper swarms for some more Gargoyles (should yield another 6-ish). I've found they work best in units of ~20 or so. Any less than that and they get gunned down too much to really tarpit anything significant for long and the added bodies help with bubble wrapping your slower moving units.
Wilson wrote: So with the new assassins data slate out i'm now thinking that maybe a horrific allegiance is required? First of all, look at the rules for the new Culexis, taken from BOLS; [snip] Psychic Abomination - Psykers at -3Ld with 12", no warp charges generated within 12", powers only cast on a 6 within 12"
How much you willing to bet that's what they are going to do to Shadow in the Warp when the 7th edition book rolls around? Definitely fits with how it is described in the fluff...
Anyway, the league is restarting next week at 500 points. I have not had much experience at such a low point value with the 6th edition book so any advice would be welcome.
List #1: [Field Tested - 1 win, 1 loss]
Spoiler:
HQ: 1x Hive Tyrant with Scything Talons, Stranglethorn Cannon
TROOPS: 10x Hormagaunts TROOPS: 10x Hormagaunts
HEAVY: 1x Exocrine
First test-list basically made with what I already had with me that was both based and fully painted. It worked out fairly well in the Maelstrom missions thanks to the Hormagaunts, but I'm a bit concerned about what to do if someone decides to be cheeky and bring a flyer, as only the Exocrine can really even attempt to hurt one... Also I did find lethality was a bit weak with this one, as the Hormagaunts don't have enough numbers to do anything other than objective grab (which they did well, to be fair).
List #2: [Untested]
Spoiler:
HQ: 1x Tervigon with Crushing Claws
TROOPS: 15x Termagants TROOPS: 15x Termagants
HEAVY: 1x Exocrine
Same idea as above, but with Termagants instead. Bit more swarmy (which I like), but really slow moving and no warlord traits...
List #3: [Untested, Unbound]
Spoiler:
HQ: 1x Hive Tyrant with Wings, 2x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
FAST: 10x Gargoyles FAST: 10x Gargoyles FAST: 1x Harpy with twin-linked Heavy Venom Cannon (in-case-of-Quantum Shielding)
This is my "mean" list. Unbound is allowed at our group, but most people run normal armies for Objective Secured (only one person has managed to win with an unbound list so far since 7th has dropped, and in all cases the games were close so...). List has lots of fast-moving threats, though scoring might be a bit of an issue without OS and the two flying monsters. Not sure if I want to bring this though, as the purpose of the new point bracket is to encourage some of our new players to come play on league nights. As such, two flying monsters might be a bit overwhelming for someone who has just started their collection (not to mention in general).
I like list one, though I'd have run a Dakkafex, because that is what I'd have handy, toss on Adrenals and it's real close in points...just grab Hormies with leftovers.
Oh, and as you know, I'm a fan of Tyranofex. The lower point the game, the greater the dominance.
SHUPPET wrote: I think 2 3 man units of Warriors with a cannon each for the same price outclasses it in practically every manner. Crushing Claws being a terrible upgrade, and Tervigon being one the most cost effecient units to shoot at in the dex even makes eGrubs unreliable.
I think he was overpowered last edition, underpowered this one - I do however think he is actually balanced at <1000 pts where his spawns add a larger percentage to your army size, his versatility is more relevant and his durability more tanky.
Thanks for your input. But I'm looking specifically at Termagants vs Ripper Swarms.
I'm thinking of:
4x Broods of 3 Deep Striking Ripper Swarms (180pts)
vs
2x Broods of 15 Termagants with Devourers (240pts)
I can see how the Termagants can actually get more work done since they have Devourers but it is also 60pts more. Not to mention small arms fire or blasts will make them their primary target since most the rest of my army is MCs. So the may be whittled down quite a bit before they get to do their "work." The Rippers, while less of a contribution to the attacking of my opponents army, still have objective secured, and can be annoyances that come in turn 2+ into the game that my opponent will have to deal with.
Thoughts? (Aside: Can Termagants even screen our MCs like the Carnifex or Mawloc for a cover save? They seem too small in physical size...)
Lists are fully changeable. The league has generally just allowed people to bring what they wish each week, so I can tweak as necessary (though they request that our lists be built prior - both to prevent tailoring and to save time). Forgeword is fully allowed. One of our old regulars was running the Siege of Vraks chaos army and a couple people have some forgeworld items. The only restrictions are if you want to bring a Lord of War it has to be the official model and must be painted.
Sadly I don't have a Malanthrope (yet - shop owner will be doing a forgeworld order sooner or later) so I won't be able to run the first list. Any particular reason the first list uses Biovores while the second has an Exocrine? I like and have both units, just curious as to the reasoning seeing as the overall construction is similar.
Because with both the flyrant and malanthrope in there, plus 2 troops, you've only got 95-pts left to spare. Not enough for a TMC, but just enough for 2 biovores or 15 gargoyles.
With the 2nd list, as it appears you want another MC in your list, I just left your exocrine in there. When I make list suggestions, I try to minimize the overhauling of a list and to use as many models as you originally had on.
SHUPPET wrote: I think 2 3 man units of Warriors with a cannon each for the same price outclasses it in practically every manner. Crushing Claws being a terrible upgrade, and Tervigon being one the most cost effecient units to shoot at in the dex even makes eGrubs unreliable.
I think he was overpowered last edition, underpowered this one - I do however think he is actually balanced at <1000 pts where his spawns add a larger percentage to your army size, his versatility is more relevant and his durability more tanky.
Thanks for your input. But I'm looking specifically at Termagants vs Ripper Swarms.
I'm thinking of:
4x Broods of 3 Deep Striking Ripper Swarms (180pts)
vs
2x Broods of 15 Termagants with Devourers (240pts)
I can see how the Termagants can actually get more work done since they have Devourers but it is also 60pts more. Not to mention small arms fire or blasts will make them their primary target since most the rest of my army is MCs. So the may be whittled down quite a bit before they get to do their "work." The Rippers, while less of a contribution to the attacking of my opponents army, still have objective secured, and can be annoyances that come in turn 2+ into the game that my opponent will have to deal with.
Thoughts? (Aside: Can Termagants even screen our MCs like the Carnifex or Mawloc for a cover save? They seem too small in physical size...)
I think you should also consider Termagant Brood, x20 x3 (240) In general Nids do best when they avoid upgrades, and use the "Lots o'figures!" stratagem. Twenty gribbles can fill a lot of table space, and have a decent volume of fire. In addition, every loss represents half the cost. I greatly prefer to mix Devilgaunts into Broods, so I can use cheap gaunts as losses.
Slight change in topic but what does everyone think is THE best unit Tyranids have ever had through out all of the editions?
E.g 6th edition flying hive tyrant with dual devourers?
5th edition Doom of Malantai?
3rd edition Carnifex?
I'm not familiar with all the gems through the ages as I've only just picked up nids this year but I'd liked to discover there former glories.
Wilson wrote: Slight change in topic but what does everyone think is THE best unit Tyranids have ever had through out all of the editions?
E.g 6th edition flying hive tyrant with dual devourers?
5th edition Doom of Malantai?
3rd edition Carnifex?
I'm not familiar with all the gems through the ages as I've only just picked up nids this year but I'd liked to discover there former glories.
I'll take a gander. I started at the end of 4th Edition and the beginning of 5th Ed. 40K.
4th Edition Nids (4th Edition and early part of 5E 40K):
This was the golden age of Nidzilla and the genestealer.
Nidzilla was strong, with 114-pt dakkafexes and 200-pt godfexes (with 2+, 5W, T7 and up to 8-10 S10 attacks on the charge!).
Genestealers under 4E rules were king. There was nothing more feared than the 4E stealers, who were each fully customizable and who could consolidate from combat into another combat!
A special mention would have to go out to Without Number termagants, who could respawn whenever the unit got wiped out and was the perfect complement to nidzilla.
After 5E came out, nidzilla became the only competitive Tyranid build as genestealers could no longer consolidate from combat into combat.
5th Edition Nids (5th Edition and early part of 6E 40K):
The Doom of Ma'lantai was probably the only must-take unit during the golden age of 5E. That guy was so good for the price that he was an auto-include in almost every Tyranid list.
However, probably the single most important unit of the era was the tervigon. Tyranids would win or lose by their tervigons.
Honorable mention would go to the Hive Guards, who were the most reliable and consistent shooter the bugs had in an edition primarily dominated by MSU mech (5th Ed. 40K), and probably the Swarmlord, who was arguably the 2nd greatest force-multiplier unit on the army (after the tervigon).
With the dawn of 6th Ed. 40K, you get a hint of what's to come with the Flyrant and the new flyer rules.
Honorable mention would go to gargoyles as one of the greatest distraction units in all of the Tyranid codices ever.
6th Edition Nids (6th Edition and now 7E 40K):
The flyrant became the best unit in 6th Ed, and his role increased even more in 7th as an already excellent unit became even better!
6E was also the dawn of the cheap MC. Carnifexes, while not as cheap and customizable as 4E bugs, dropped down in price significantly. So did the Mawloc, tyrannofex and cheap FMC's. It was no longer any single unit that dominated. Rather, it was an amalgamation of cheap big guys that helped to make Tyranids somewhat competitive.
6E bugs in 7E also introduced what already is considered one of the most important bugs ever. He's Forgeworld, he just came out and bug players are already proclaiming him a must-take in every Tyranid list. Yes, it's the Malanthrope.
Honorable mention would have to go to the venomthrope, probably the single most improved unit in the dex compared to previous edition. If not for the Malanthrope, the humble venomthrope, who is also the 2nd greatest force-multiplier in the dex, would probably be the second most important unit in the codex.
So who is best?
So of all the editions, who is the single best unit? Now this is my own personal opinion and I know there will be those who will disagree, but to me, this is arguably the best unit ever to come from the Tyranid linneage:
Spoiler:
6th Edition Flyrant in 7th Edition 40K.
Why?
He is super durable for just 1 single Tyranid unit and the most durable unit in the dex currently.
He is the best Tyranid force-multiplier unit (FMU) in the codex today.
He is the most mobile Tyranid unit....ever.
He is also currently their most consistent offense, able to take on both ground units and flyers.
Finally, whereas most other Tyranid units excel in one area but are mediocre or even bad in others, the flyrant is the most well-rounded unit in all of the Tyranid codices. Not only is he well-rounded and able to function all on his own, but he also does everything pretty well. You take him up against any army and he has a chance to perform. I can't say the same for many of the other Tyranid units. Tervigons had no offense. The Doom of Ma'lantai could not do anything against mech lists. Swarmlord is too slow and could be screened out. Dakkafexes had limited range and were slow, and genestealers die to a stiff breeze. Only the flyrant in 7E could do it all and he did everything from at least average to sometimes even spectacular in performance. He is just the best and most consistent jack-of-all-trades swiss-army-knife unit that we have ever had.
I started at the very beginning of 3rd edition and the best Tyranid unit was the 3rd edition main rulebook Tyrant.
At the start of 3rd edition there were no codex's of any kind. All army rules were printed in the main rulebook for each Army. They were short. The Tyrant had good stats. He was one of the very few str 6 toughness 6 models in the game and he came with a strong anti-tank gun. What made him so powerful was his independent character rule. He could attach to a unit of 30 Termagants and become untargetable until you killed all 30 Gants first. Imagine a Tyrant with 30 ablative wounds. We used to call it the Hive Tyrant delivery system.
Also in this edition characters could allocate attacks in combat and he just allocated his attacks to anything that could hurt him, like another character. Nothing survived long enough to attack back in combat, except another Tyrant.
Because of those rules the 3rd edition main rulebook Tyrant was the most powerful.
coredump wrote: Only works if the unit is made entirely of psykers. Otherwise they will use that Ld for the roll.
Not true, you target the unit yes but say there was a Psyker in that unit and it happened to have the highest LD then it would be effected.
e.g Coteaz in a unit of marines
Psychic scream @ -5 LD on the unit.
-8 with a Calexus Assasin..
No, it doesn't work like that.
Sure, Coteaz's Ld may drop to 5, or 2... but the *unit* uses the highest Ld, which will be the Sgt. at 9. (or any other IC or model in the unit with a high Ld.)
The only way this works is if the entire unit is made of psykers.... (wreck face on grey knights...)
4x Broods of 3 Deep Striking Ripper Swarms (180pts)
vs
2x Broods of 15 Termagants with Devourers (240pts)
First, *if* you decide to use devilgaunts, I would mix them up. For the same 240pts you can get 2 broods of 20 gaunts, and give 10 of them devourers. Those go in back, so any shooting kills the 4pt models first, and not 8pt models.
There are two reasons for using DSrippers.
1) DS gives them added mobility, you can drop into enemy deployment etc. Places it would be hard/long to get gaunts to just by move/runs.
2) Frees up points for models that are better than our troop choices. Devilgaunts are nice. But your brood of 15 is the same price as 3 biovores, and almost as much as a devilfex or Crone.
I think OS can be very powerful for armies that can leverage it, I don't think we have the proper troops units. I think 2-3 DSrippers are plenty, and you can grab gargs instead of gaunt broods.
SHUPPET wrote: I think 2 3 man units of Warriors with a cannon each for the same price outclasses it in practically every manner. Crushing Claws being a terrible upgrade, and Tervigon being one the most cost effecient units to shoot at in the dex even makes eGrubs unreliable.
I think he was overpowered last edition, underpowered this one - I do however think he is actually balanced at <1000 pts where his spawns add a larger percentage to your army size, his versatility is more relevant and his durability more tanky.
Thanks for your input. But I'm looking specifically at Termagants vs Ripper Swarms.
I'm thinking of:
4x Broods of 3 Deep Striking Ripper Swarms (180pts)
vs
2x Broods of 15 Termagants with Devourers (240pts)
I can see how the Termagants can actually get more work done since they have Devourers but it is also 60pts more. Not to mention small arms fire or blasts will make them their primary target since most the rest of my army is MCs. So the may be whittled down quite a bit before they get to do their "work." The Rippers, while less of a contribution to the attacking of my opponents army, still have objective secured, and can be annoyances that come in turn 2+ into the game that my opponent will have to deal with.
Thoughts? (Aside: Can Termagants even screen our MCs like the Carnifex or Mawloc for a cover save? They seem too small in physical size...)
Sorry, my post was to Jy2 in response to his views on the Tervigon.
Termagants do not need devourers to do more than the Rippers. They already have 10 S4 AP5 shots which is immediately more than Rippers have. They provide a cover save for most MC's and any infantry, Rippers do not. They have 10 wounds to tie something up in combat a LOT longer than Rippers who get instadeathed, and they actually stand a chance of doing a wound or two in CC, not including the obvious effeciency bonus given to them by fleshborers. And they do all this 5 points cheaper than DS Rippers. I Think Rippers are extremely overrated and a really bad choice in general. At 500 points its even worse, as the damage done by 20 termagants even with fleshborers is very relevant. Taking a full squad of Devourers is a bad idea, unless you are planning to outflank them, they are just a big glass cannon that will not be as points effecient as taking a screen. I think before you start adding devourers you need at least 10 fleshborer gants in the squad to screen, probably 15 is better.
IMO the best troop choice you can take at any size, is a 10 man unit of Termagants. Nothing else is necessary. Those points go much further placed into something better.
Except you now need a synapse babysitter, and a way to get to objectives on the other side of the board....
Gaunts are better for crowd control, speed bumps, and if in a larger brood, tarpitting.
But Gargs are even better for just about all of the above, and are much faster. (Can't tarpit that wraithknight if you can't catch it.
Rippers will be fine outside of synapse, are easier to hide, can DS where you need them. They are 5 points more, but allow you to skimp on synapse creatures.
Of course having a gun does more shooting damage than not having a gun.... but 10 fleshborers just isn't doing much in any case.
You don't have to take Gargs tho, you do have to take either Rippers or Termagants.
The Rippers don't give you a 3+ venomthrope cover. If your Terms are providing cover for an exocrine or Tyranno or whatever, why would they ever be out of Synapse range?
Rippers are forced into sitting on objectives to be worthwhile and doing it poorly in comparison to just other armies troop choices
And since you have to take the unit twice, its 20 fleshborers. The lower the points the more the difference is going to be relevant
syypher wrote: Q: Devourer Termagants 10-15 per unit vs Deep Striking Ripper Swarms for Troops @ 1500 and @1850? It seems like you get a lot more punch out of the rest of your list but loose a lot of objective secured. What have you guys been running/testing and how successful was it?
Devourer Gants are quite powerful. The best way to use them is a Hive Tyrant with Hive commander outflanking a Mixed squad of them. I generally would argue that you should usually include 10 Spinefist or Fleshborer Gants as part of the squad as cheaper ablative wounds. A good squad would look something like this:
25 Termagants (10 Spinefists, 15 Devourers) + Hive commander on a Tyrant for a total of 180 points. That is more than a Dakkafex. But against many things it is going to do more damage and have a bit more survivability. You probably aren't going to see it on many tournament lists, but it is a viable unit.
Now, I don't want to rehash my Tervigon Rant. But if you believe in the Tervigon, and must take him as a troop, your best bet for doing so is running the following.
Hive Commander on a Tyrant
30 Termagants (15 Fleshborers, 15 Devourers)
Tervigon (Electroshock Grubs, Crushing Claws)
For a total of 420 points. But this give you good flexibility with your list, and allows you to pick at game time which unit is outflanking. If your opponent is running Lemun Russes or other Mech in the backfield, Outflank the Tervigon. If he is running Devastators or other infantry, outflank the Devourer Gants. I used to run this often at the start of 6th. I have moved away from it since, preferring to spend my points on Fast Attack and Heavy support units, but I won many, many games using that troop configuration as part of my list. I may give it another spin to see if I can figure out what JY2 sees in the Tervigon besides wistful memories.
Because with both the flyrant and malanthrope in there, plus 2 troops, you've only got 95-pts left to spare. Not enough for a TMC, but just enough for 2 biovores or 15 gargoyles.
With the 2nd list, as it appears you want another MC in your list, I just left your exocrine in there. When I make list suggestions, I try to minimize the overhauling of a list and to use as many models as you originally had on.
Ah, ok gotcha! Also any thoughts on what to do with an unbound allowed army? On one hand one can go with full killing power, but so far our group's experience has been doing such leaves you vulnerable to the guy who brought a gazillion scoring units.
Also in regards to the Tervigon, besides the nerfs it received couldn't some of its falling out of favor be due to the way most Tyranid lists are constructed now-a-days? The starting point is generally two flying Tyrants which innately puts the list towards a threat-overload style which the Tervigon doesn't really mesh well with. From my own games, I've noticed the Tervgion does better in a more reactive pseudo-gunline sort of list where it's spawning ability allows it to maintain tarpits and thus counteract the enemy's advance while shooting elements (Biovores, Hive Guard, Exocrine, Carnifexes, Warriors with bio-cannon) pummel the enemy from the midfield. Brood Progenitor's counter-attack buff also plays into this sort of list, since the Termagants affected are generally going to be used purely as speed bumps and the benefit ties in with their being reactionary units (shoot -> overwatch -> attack as though one had charged).
SHUPPET wrote: You don't have to take Gargs tho, you do have to take either Rippers or Termagants.
The Rippers don't give you a 3+ venomthrope cover. If your Terms are providing cover for an exocrine or Tyranno or whatever, why would they ever be out of Synapse range?
Rippers are forced into sitting on objectives to be worthwhile and doing it poorly in comparison to just other armies troop choices
And since you have to take the unit twice, its 20 fleshborers. The lower the points the more the difference is going to be relevant
Why do you keep saying rippers can't give a cover save?
*IF* all the gaunts are doing is providing a cover save, then they probably will be in synapse range; rippers however give you more options because they don't *need* to be in synapse range. Gaunts mean you also need to spend the points on a synapse source, and not just one, but enough synapse sources so it isn't worthwhile to just take out one 'lynchpin' unit and make all your troops run away. Sure, that Exocrine also likes synapse, but if it fails IB, it just shoots at the closest target.
You are also now relegating those gaunts to only providing a cover save, or otherwise staying close. The rippers can do that, *or* they can DS anywhere on the board to either grab an objective, or tie up something like a devastator or long fang squad. Yes, they die quickly to S6 attacks... its part of the trade off. But against the rest, they have 90% of the wounds of the gaunt squad.
Sometimes I would keep my gaunts in reserves to keep them protected for a couple of turns, but then they walk on and can't get anywhere. Now I have the option of keeping the rippers in reserve, and they can get anywhere.
coredump wrote: Why do you keep saying rippers can't give a cover save?
*IF* all the gaunts are doing is providing a cover save, then they probably will be in synapse range; rippers however give you more options because they don't *need* to be in synapse range. Gaunts mean you also need to spend the points on a synapse source, and not just one, but enough synapse sources so it isn't worthwhile to just take out one 'lynchpin' unit and make all your troops run away. Sure, that Exocrine also likes synapse, but if it fails IB, it just shoots at the closest target.
You are also now relegating those gaunts to only providing a cover save, or otherwise staying close. The rippers can do that, *or* they can DS anywhere on the board to either grab an objective, or tie up something like a devastator or long fang squad. Yes, they die quickly to S6 attacks... its part of the trade off. But against the rest, they have 90% of the wounds of the gaunt squad.
Sometimes I would keep my gaunts in reserves to keep them protected for a couple of turns, but then they walk on and can't get anywhere. Now I have the option of keeping the rippers in reserve, and they can get anywhere.
You count on gants to give you a cover save for deployment and first turn. Beyond that they are either dead or moving off to score objectives or tarpit. It isn't that Rippers can't provide a cover save, it is just that 3 rippers form such a small screen, and they are also way, way less survivable than gants because of T3 with 3 wounds, and if they are providing covers saves, they are not deep striking.
I would rather have Gants that can contribute turn 1 than rippers who can't.
Also synapse is important for several things. Most notably Carnifexes. They lose the ability to shoot if they fail synapse, and giving up shooting for them is huge. I've also lost combat with a Carnifex out of synapse and been swept by an ordinary Tac Squad.
There is a bit of a balance. I think some deep striking rippers seem like a reasonable option on paper, though I've never had them prove worthwhile in an actual game. The key is 1 to 2 squads of gants or gargoyles.
Now, I don't want to rehash my Tervigon Rant. But if you believe in the Tervigon, and must take him as a troop, your best bet for doing so is running the following.
Hive Commander on a Tyrant
30 Termagants (15 Fleshborers, 15 Devourers)
Tervigon (Electroshock Grubs, Crushing Claws)
For a total of 420 points. But this give you good flexibility with your list, and allows you to pick at game time which unit is outflanking. If your opponent is running Lemun Russes or other Mech in the backfield, Outflank the Tervigon. If he is running Devastators or other infantry, outflank the Devourer Gants. I used to run this often at the start of 6th. I have moved away from it since, preferring to spend my points on Fast Attack and Heavy support units, but I won many, many games using that troop configuration as part of my list. I may give it another spin to see if I can figure out what JY2 sees in the Tervigon besides wistful memories.
To be fair, the tervigon-termagant combo got nerfed even further in 7th. No, it isn't by their rules or any of the core rule changes in 7E (they actually got better in 7E with ObSec). Rather, it is by the 7E Maelstrom missions. While they are good at anchoring objections in Eternal War missions, their lack of mobility made them more of a liability in the Maelstrom ones. What good is sitting on your home objective if you don't roll it in Maelstrom, and how are you getting them into the far objectives or your opponent's deployment zones? That, more than anything, is why many veteran gamers have shifted away from a tervigon-centric Tyranid build to a more ripper-based Tyranid build. Rippers with their ability to deepstrike give you more of an advantage in Maelstrom-based missions.
Because with both the flyrant and malanthrope in there, plus 2 troops, you've only got 95-pts left to spare. Not enough for a TMC, but just enough for 2 biovores or 15 gargoyles.
With the 2nd list, as it appears you want another MC in your list, I just left your exocrine in there. When I make list suggestions, I try to minimize the overhauling of a list and to use as many models as you originally had on.
Ah, ok gotcha! Also any thoughts on what to do with an unbound allowed army? On one hand one can go with full killing power, but so far our group's experience has been doing such leaves you vulnerable to the guy who brought a gazillion scoring units.
Also in regards to the Tervigon, besides the nerfs it received couldn't some of its falling out of favor be due to the way most Tyranid lists are constructed now-a-days? The starting point is generally two flying Tyrants which innately puts the list towards a threat-overload style which the Tervigon doesn't really mesh well with. From my own games, I've noticed the Tervgion does better in a more reactive pseudo-gunline sort of list where it's spawning ability allows it to maintain tarpits and thus counteract the enemy's advance while shooting elements (Biovores, Hive Guard, Exocrine, Carnifexes, Warriors with bio-cannon) pummel the enemy from the midfield. Brood Progenitor's counter-attack buff also plays into this sort of list, since the Termagants affected are generally going to be used purely as speed bumps and the benefit ties in with their being reactionary units (shoot -> overwatch -> attack as though one had charged).
At 500-pts unbound? That's easy. I'd go with your List #3, or a modified version of it (with more gargoyles and mawloc over the exo).
With regards to the tervigon-based lists, IMO it isn't really the MTO (Maximum Threat Overload) play-style that discouraged the use of tervigons. I was still running MTO builds pre-Skyblight with tervigons back in 6th. The difference between then (6E) and now (7E) is the addition of the Maelstrom missions, where that 315-pts of troops could be a liability due to its lack of mobility. In most Eternal War missions, tervigon-based lists can still be competitive. In mixed scenarios like the BAO, which uses both Eternal War missions and a modified Maelstrom one, he still has his uses thanks to the EW mission though he is somewhat sub-optimal due to the Maelstrom ones. However, in a purely Maelstrom scenario, he then becomes a somewhat hit-or-miss unit.
I've also lost combat with a Carnifex out of synapse and been swept by an ordinary Tac Squad.
A Carnifex is fearless innately, so even being out of synapse that shouldn't have happened barring the old 6th edition Terrify power...
Oops. It was the first time I've lost synapse (only on one flank) in quite some time, and I forgot Carnifex were fearless. I was playing 2 on 2 vs 2 players who brought Drop Pods, and all of the Space wolves dropped in and took out my synapse. Fortunately, I had the Swarmlord + 2 Tyrant guard on the Right Flank, so was able to fairly easily carve through all of the death company, the Space wolf HQ, and lots of other things. I was heading to aid my ally who was tarpitting a blood thirst with Tac Marines, but the last space wolf managed to take Swarmy down. Luckily the game ended for a crushing victory for the Hive.
Now, I don't want to rehash my Tervigon Rant. But if you believe in the Tervigon, and must take him as a troop, your best bet for doing so is running the following.
Hive Commander on a Tyrant
30 Termagants (15 Fleshborers, 15 Devourers)
Tervigon (Electroshock Grubs, Crushing Claws)
For a total of 420 points. But this give you good flexibility with your list, and allows you to pick at game time which unit is outflanking. If your opponent is running Lemun Russes or other Mech in the backfield, Outflank the Tervigon. If he is running Devastators or other infantry, outflank the Devourer Gants. I used to run this often at the start of 6th. I have moved away from it since, preferring to spend my points on Fast Attack and Heavy support units, but I won many, many games using that troop configuration as part of my list. I may give it another spin to see if I can figure out what JY2 sees in the Tervigon besides wistful memories.
To be fair, the tervigon-termagant combo got nerfed even further in 7th. No, it isn't by their rules or any of the core rule changes in 7E (they actually got better in 7E with ObSec). Rather, it is by the 7E Maelstrom missions. While they are good at anchoring objections in Eternal War missions, their lack of mobility made them more of a liability in the Maelstrom ones. What good is sitting on your home objective if you don't roll it in Maelstrom, and how are you getting them into the far objectives or your opponent's deployment zones? That, more than anything, is why many veteran gamers have shifted away from a tervigon-centric Tyranid build to a more ripper-based Tyranid build. Rippers with their ability to deepstrike give you more of an advantage in Maelstrom-based missions.
That is true, but even in Eternal war missions, the Tervigon isn't really survivable enough to anchor midfield, and so he ended up camping on backfield objectives an awful lot with a squad of spawned gants nearby. A single zoey with 10 gants does exactly the same thing for a fraction of the price.
Also the rule change where the spawned gants are not objective secured is a big nerf to the tervigon.
I have generally found that Ob Sec is highly over rated in 7th. It allows you to steal maybe a single objective from your opponent, or vice versa. It seems like eliminating most of your opponent's units so that they just have 1 or 2 that are in position to claim objectives works much better than relying on Tyranid troops for their Ob Sec. I think the rhetoric of "Ob Sec is more important in 7th" made sense on paper, but we don't often see it playing out in games. Or at least I don't often see it playing out in games.
tag8833 wrote: That is true, but even in Eternal war missions, the Tervigon isn't really survivable enough to anchor midfield, and so he ended up camping on backfield objectives an awful lot with a squad of spawned gants nearby. A single zoey with 10 gants does exactly the same thing for a fraction of the price.
Also the rule change where the spawned gants are not objective secured is a big nerf to the tervigon.
I have generally found that Ob Sec is highly over rated in 7th. It allows you to steal maybe a single objective from your opponent, or vice versa. It seems like eliminating most of your opponent's units so that they just have 1 or 2 that are in position to claim objectives works much better than relying on Tyranid troops for their Ob Sec. I think the rhetoric of "Ob Sec is more important in 7th" made sense on paper, but we don't often see it playing out in games. Or at least I don't often see it playing out in games.
Tervigon can survive midfield as long as you throw enough threats at the opponent. And those threats have to be fast in order for your opponent to prioritize his targeting onto them. If you throw another slow threat at your opponent (i.e. another footslogging tyranid), then your opponent has the luxury of shooting down your tervigon before going after the other bugs. BTW, I used to run both a zoan and the tervigon. Zoan would provide backfield synapse (while mostly hiding) whereas the tervigon would normally advance with the army to provide midfield support.
ObSec isn't over-rated. It is extremely powerful....but only if you have the tools to take advantage of it. And when I say tools, I mean mostly mobility and quantity of ObSec units. Mechdar and the marine armies can take the best advantage of it due to the large number of mobile ObSec units. Tyranids? Not so much due to the rather limited mobility of their ObSec units and the fact that most Tyranid builds nowadays focus on Nidzilla and a MTO play-style, which tend to minimize on the troop selections. So in a sense, you are correct. ObSec isn't as important to us as it is to some other armies. That is because we don't do ObSec as well as some of the other armies and are actually more efficient with ObSec-lite builds.
BTW, the BAO interpreted the spawned gants to be ObSec as long as the tervigon was a troop tervigon, and here in the West Coast, we normally follow the BAO rulings. One of these days, I am going to bring back my dual-tervigon build to see how well they can still perform in 7E.
tag8833 wrote: That is true, but even in Eternal war missions, the Tervigon isn't really survivable enough to anchor midfield, and so he ended up camping on backfield objectives an awful lot with a squad of spawned gants nearby. A single zoey with 10 gants does exactly the same thing for a fraction of the price.
Also the rule change where the spawned gants are not objective secured is a big nerf to the tervigon.
I have generally found that Ob Sec is highly over rated in 7th. It allows you to steal maybe a single objective from your opponent, or vice versa. It seems like eliminating most of your opponent's units so that they just have 1 or 2 that are in position to claim objectives works much better than relying on Tyranid troops for their Ob Sec. I think the rhetoric of "Ob Sec is more important in 7th" made sense on paper, but we don't often see it playing out in games. Or at least I don't often see it playing out in games.
Tervigon can survive midfield as long as you throw enough threats at the opponent. And those threats have to be fast in order for your opponent to prioritize his targeting onto them. If you throw another slow threat at your opponent (i.e. another footslogging tyranid), then your opponent has the luxury of shooting down your tervigon before going after the other bugs. BTW, I used to run both a zoan and the tervigon. Zoan would provide backfield synapse (while mostly hiding) whereas the tervigon would normally advance with the army to provide midfield support.
ObSec isn't over-rated. It is extremely powerful....but only if you have the tools to take advantage of it. And when I say tools, I mean mostly mobility and quantity of ObSec units. Mechdar and the marine armies can take the best advantage of it due to the large number of mobile ObSec units. Tyranids? Not so much due to the rather limited mobility of their ObSec units and the fact that most Tyranid builds nowadays focus on Nidzilla and a MTO play-style, which tend to minimize on the troop selections. So in a sense, you are correct. ObSec isn't as important to us as it is to some other armies. That is because we don't do ObSec as well as some of the other armies and are actually more efficient with ObSec-lite builds.
BTW, the BAO interpreted the spawned gants to be ObSec as long as the tervigon was a troop tervigon, and here in the West Coast, we normally follow the BAO rulings. One of these days, I am going to bring back my dual-tervigon build to see how well they can still perform in 7E.
Yeah, I interpreted the claim as "I love to argue!" Seems to me the rules say the spawned Termagants are exactly like the one in it's detachment...I'd have to look, but I don't much like to argue. Glad to hear at least some folks agree with me on this point.
jy2 wrote: ObSec isn't over-rated. It is extremely powerful....but only if you have the tools to take advantage of it. And when I say tools, I mean mostly mobility and quantity of ObSec units. Mechdar and the marine armies can take the best advantage of it due to the large number of mobile ObSec units. Tyranids? Not so much due to the rather limited mobility of their ObSec units and the fact that most Tyranid builds nowadays focus on Nidzilla and a MTO play-style, which tend to minimize on the troop selections. So in a sense, you are correct. ObSec isn't as important to us as it is to some other armies. That is because we don't do ObSec as well as some of the other armies and are actually more efficient with ObSec-lite builds.
A good point. I saw a player with 6 Ob sec drop pods containing 10 Combat squaded marines. He brought the in right on the Maelstrom objectives, and was utterly unbeatable for the list playing against him. I also fear Mechdar, but haven't really seen a player use it that well yet. Every time I see multiple serpents they want to gunline them.
jy2 wrote: BTW, the BAO interpreted the spawned gants to be ObSec as long as the tervigon was a troop tervigon, and here in the West Coast, we normally follow the BAO rulings. One of these days, I am going to bring back my dual-tervigon build to see how well they can still perform in 7E.
From the BAOFAQ:
"Units generated during the game that were not purchased as part of a player’s army list (e.g. Tyranid Tervigons spawning Termagaunts or the Chaos Daemons Portaglyph summoning daemons) are considered part of the owning player’s army, but not any specific Detachment. This means they do not benefit from any Command Benefits of any of the Detachments included in the army (including Objective Secured)."
jy2 wrote: BTW, the BAO interpreted the spawned gants to be ObSec as long as the tervigon was a troop tervigon, and here in the West Coast, we normally follow the BAO rulings. One of these days, I am going to bring back my dual-tervigon build to see how well they can still perform in 7E.
From the BAOFAQ:
"Units generated during the game that were not purchased as part of a player’s army list (e.g. Tyranid Tervigons spawning Termagaunts or the Chaos Daemons Portaglyph summoning daemons) are considered part of the owning player’s army, but not any specific Detachment. This means they do not benefit from any Command Benefits of any of the Detachments included in the army (including Objective Secured)."
To me, that seems sort of silly. Why wouldn't spawned troops be OS? It's not like Tyranids are itching to flood the board with tevigons and gants any more than daemons really need to summon and portaglyph 200 models into play? Makes for a boring game if you ask me, and by ruling in the opposite direction, it really makes it tough to want to run Tervigons. If the gribblies aren't OS, then that's a big hit to the nads.
So I dropped out of here for a while and the Malanthrope became good apparently? can someone point me to where the rough idea on the rules are? as in a way to use him and why is he so good breakdown?
bodazoka wrote: So I dropped out of here for a while and the Malanthrope became good apparently? can someone point me to where the rough idea on the rules are? as in a way to use him and why is he so good breakdown?
Summary - Venomthropes are good. We all agree on that. As a Force Multiplier they are wonderful with that bubble of cover.
However, Venomthropes have some problems - they have IB. They only have a 5+ armour save normally. And at T4 they can be instakilled by the most common of templates, the Battle Cannon. This makes us sad.
Then Forge World gave us the Malanthrope. Now, without even going into Malanthrope specific rules it's amazing.
It's slightly cheaper than 2 Venomthropes (!)
It's T5, S5, 4 wounds and a 3+ save(!)
It has Regeneration (!)
In addition to the Venomthrope's ability to grant cover in a bubble and its poison!
But wait, there's more.
It has Synapse and Shadow in the Warp!
This alone is incredible. Its specific rules are only icing on the cake.
Maelstrom is the main (only) reason as to why so many Tyranid players are going with Rippers as their troop units of choice. As mentioned, the ability to deepstrike onto forward objectives without need of synapse babysitting, is STRONK! I run 4x3 Rippers in my 2k lists, and they always deliver. Maelstrom (with slight adjustments) are becoming the go-to way to play in both tournaments and casual games in my area.
I prefer Gargoyles for screening duties, but sometime I include a cheap Termagant screen instead, as a complement to the Rippers.
N.I.B. wrote: Maelstrom is the main (only) reason as to why so many Tyranid players are going with Rippers as their troop units of choice. As mentioned, the ability to deepstrike onto forward objectives without need of synapse babysitting, is STRONK! I run 4x3 Rippers in my 2k lists, and they always deliver. Maelstrom (with slight adjustments) are becoming the go-to way to play in both tournaments and casual games in my area.
I prefer Gargoyles for screening duties, but sometime I include a cheap Termagant screen instead, as a complement to the Rippers.
I don't think you are correct. Maelstrom is not great for rippers because they have about 50% chance to net you 1 point and then die. Eternal war is much better. They net you more points, and you can hide them out of LOS and then jump out on the last turn. I think it is the fact that I play Maelstrom almost exclusively that has me convinced that rippers are a bad choice. People that play Eternal war or modified eternal war (Like BAO scenarios) find rippers to be not terrible.
Hormagants are the troop of choice for Maelstrom, hands down.
This weekend I had a very pleasant experience with the Broodlord Hunting Pack formation. On my turn two of the three broods of 10 (not the one with the Broodlord sadly) arrived from reserve, deployed into a couple of large Ruins that were also being occupied by some Longfangs and a large unit of Grey Hunters respectively. They declared charges, weatheredthe Overwatch with the 4+ cover saves and proceeded to inflict extreme damage on the Wolves.
The Broodlord pack itself deployed in support of the brood finishing off the Grey Hunters the following turn, and between them they accounted for an enormous chunk of my opponent's army.
I remember reading many (many) pages back that someone else had been having a lot of success with the BLHP... is this how you were doing it? Turn 2 surprise assaults on Ruins heavy battlefields?
Xyptc wrote: This weekend I had a very pleasant experience with the Broodlord Hunting Pack formation. On my turn two of the three broods of 10 (not the one with the Broodlord sadly) arrived from reserve, deployed into a couple of large Ruins that were also being occupied by some Longfangs and a large unit of Grey Hunters respectively. They declared charges, weatheredthe Overwatch with the 4+ cover saves and proceeded to inflict extreme damage on the Wolves.
The Broodlord pack itself deployed in support of the brood finishing off the Grey Hunters the following turn, and between them they accounted for an enormous chunk of my opponent's army.
I remember reading many (many) pages back that someone else had been having a lot of success with the BLHP... is this how you were doing it? Turn 2 surprise assaults on Ruins heavy battlefields?
So you arrived from reserve, assaulted and that's what made them good? Using them illegally? Or am I misreading?
Yeah, by my count, you should have weathered 1 full turn of shooting...followed by the overwatch. A unit of 10 genestealers should be @ roughly 4-5 strong after all of that with the 4+ cv save.
I've had much success with a Broodlord hunting pack and a fortification. giving them a midfield position to deploy inside is the best way to use this formation.
Xyptc wrote: This weekend I had a very pleasant experience with the Broodlord Hunting Pack formation. On my turn two of the three broods of 10 (not the one with the Broodlord sadly) arrived from reserve, deployed into a couple of large Ruins that were also being occupied by some Longfangs and a large unit of Grey Hunters respectively. They declared charges, weatheredthe Overwatch with the 4+ cover saves and proceeded to inflict extreme damage on the Wolves.
The Broodlord pack itself deployed in support of the brood finishing off the Grey Hunters the following turn, and between them they accounted for an enormous chunk of my opponent's army.
I remember reading many (many) pages back that someone else had been having a lot of success with the BLHP... is this how you were doing it? Turn 2 surprise assaults on Ruins heavy battlefields?
So you arrived from reserve, assaulted and that's what made them good? Using them illegally? Or am I misreading?
You're not. That's how we played it/ I was under the impression that units arriving from reserve could not charge either, but my opponent seemed to think it was possible and we thumbed around in the book for a few minutes and couldn't find it. We shrugged and carried on.
If it's in there, can you direct me to it? I don't want to get my hopes up :p
ductvader wrote: I've had much success with a Broodlord hunting pack and a fortification. giving them a midfield position to deploy inside is the best way to use this formation.
Care to go into a little more depth? Where do you deploy the fort?
ductvader wrote: I've had much success with a Broodlord hunting pack and a fortification. giving them a midfield position to deploy inside is the best way to use this formation.
Care to go into a little more depth? Where do you deploy the fort?
E only way I can see this working is with an escape hatch, now that fortifications have to be in your deployment zone, but I don't know what changes have been made to escape hatches.
BLHP is something that takes a little baiting, I often like to throw objectives out along the sides of the board or in hard to reach places when I know that my opponent has key specified fast or backfield objective grabbers. Place the fort near it...bastion or redoubt are best...and throw something expendable but useful inside it...like a venom or zoey. Before you roll for reserves, get the initial unit out. and deploy stealers inside to babysit the objective with a sudden fierce assault presence.
I've generally used this to disable backfield tactical drop pods and eldar jetbikes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Carnifex is the first or second strongest choice in the book.
Dual devourers are solid, mostly preferred...and adrenals are for extra running if you see fit, S10 is the minor aspect of having them.
Do you guys think we need skyblight/ artillery or other formations to stay competitive with the top codexes? We have some pretty strong generals with occasional net decked top codex lists... I want to represent tyranids and compete to as high a level as I can.
syypher wrote: Do you guys think we need skyblight/ artillery or other formations to stay competitive with the top codexes? We have some pretty strong generals with occasional net decked top codex lists... I want to represent tyranids and compete to as high a level as I can.
To be perfectly fair, Formations are the one thing we truly have an advantage with. Skyblight seems to be significantly more valuable with the MSU meta returning due to Objective Secured - and to be fair, having units of respawning, DSing Gargoyles and an additional Flyrant has never really been a bad thing for us.
luke1705 wrote: To me, that seems sort of silly. Why wouldn't spawned troops be OS? It's not like Tyranids are itching to flood the board with tevigons and gants any more than daemons really need to summon and portaglyph 200 models into play? Makes for a boring game if you ask me, and by ruling in the opposite direction, it really makes it tough to want to run Tervigons. If the gribblies aren't OS, then that's a big hit to the nads.
Yeah, I actually grabbed my Codex and checked. It says spawned Termagants are Exactly like troops purchased. I guess it got washed out by "Nurf the Demon Factory!!!" ah heck, lets nurf Nids while we're at it, its the cool thing to do.
luke1705 wrote: To me, that seems sort of silly. Why wouldn't spawned troops be OS? It's not like Tyranids are itching to flood the board with tevigons and gants any more than daemons really need to summon and portaglyph 200 models into play? Makes for a boring game if you ask me, and by ruling in the opposite direction, it really makes it tough to want to run Tervigons. If the gribblies aren't OS, then that's a big hit to the nads.
Yeah, I actually grabbed my Codex and checked. It says spawned Termagants are Exactly like troops purchased. I guess it got washed out by "Nurf the Demon Factory!!!" ah heck, lets nurf Nids while we're at it, its the cool thing to do.
Yeah, when I was talking to Reece, the main guy behind the BAO and the LVOGT's, he actually agreed that the spawned gants should be ObSec.
However, his FAQ's isn't just based on his opinions. He actually debates and discusses the issues with a bunch of other TO's. I am assuming they decided/voted on making the spawned gants non-ObSec to make it fair for every other spawned units in the game.
syypher wrote: Do you guys think we need skyblight/ artillery or other formations to stay competitive with the top codexes? We have some pretty strong generals with occasional net decked top codex lists... I want to represent tyranids and compete to as high a level as I can.
To be perfectly fair, Formations are the one thing we truly have an advantage with. Skyblight seems to be significantly more valuable with the MSU meta returning due to Objective Secured - and to be fair, having units of respawning, DSing Gargoyles and an additional Flyrant has never really been a bad thing for us.
I like Skyblight as well but I'm not a big fan of the Harpies >_< This is one of the reasons I was thinking about going the Artillery route. It lets me make large tarpit units without such a huge point investment into a detachment. I understand you can make the Gargoyles a large brood but the 300pt cost for the Harpies kind of takes away from being able to spam 2-3 Dakkafexes on top of that. Artillery doesn't eat as much points and lets me take more of the powerhouse MCs we have. Of course this is all theory craft on my part, I'm not really sure... since the major draw back is I can still take large Gargoyle broods but now they aren't OS :/
SHUPPET wrote: I agree with you on Rippers, but why Horms over Terms & Rips? Not doubting you, just hoping to learn
Fleet + Bounding Leap keep them ahead of MCs (they don't get in the way), and gets them to Objectives faster. It also helps them more reliably make charges. Because 10 Fleshborer TGaunts aren't really going to give you anything in shooting (50% hit, 50% Wound, 33% failed saves, so < 1 dead marine on average), you might as well pay the extra point per model.
Frozocrone wrote: Are Carnifexes viable in competitive builds? If so, would Adrenal Glands be worthwhile on them for a S10 charge (alongside Double Devourers)?
Yes. Dakkafexes are really, really good. Not Flyrant good, or Venom / Malanthrope good, but they come in right after that.
Adrenal Glands are debatable. Some people swear by them. The problem is, Dakkafexes do much of their damage with Hammer of Wrath, and Adrenal do not boost their strength for that. The other drawback is that it makes a unit that ins't the most survivable more expensive. But on the plus side, charges are much more reliable, and you can ID centurions, and threaten walkers a bit more. I never take them.
syypher wrote: Do you guys think we need skyblight/ artillery or other formations to stay competitive with the top codexes? We have some pretty strong generals with occasional net decked top codex lists... I want to represent tyranids and compete to as high a level as I can.
We need something that isn't in the base rule book. It might be an Ally. It might be a Lord of War. It might be Formations. Otherwise we get stomped by many, many top tier lists, and even quite a few mid tier lists.
Harpies can be situationally useful against Ork Green Tide or Guard blob. Otherwise they are not very good. Even in those favorable matchups, crones are often going to be better because they ignore cover. Harpies took pretty much every nerf 7th edition had to offer.
First lists I'm throwing around in my theory crafting with all of your guys help. (Thanks btw!!) I have a couple ripper swarms only right now so this is also going to be my buy list.
What do you guys think is a better TAC list? How would you modify it to give it more teeth if you could? (A lot of strong armies and net decked lists where I play)
syypher wrote: First lists I'm throwing around in my theory crafting with all of your guys help. (Thanks btw!!) I have a couple ripper swarms only right now so this is also going to be my buy list.
What do you guys think is a better TAC list? How would you modify it to give it more teeth if you could? (A lot of strong armies and net decked lists where I play)
Way too little synapse. Flyrants don't really count as synapse. Double CAD is frowned upon where I'm from. It will quickly get you branded WAC, and make it hard for you to get games in the future. Luckily, you don't need double CAD to do what you are doing. Just draw the 3rd Tyrant from an Allied detachment. Drop 2 Ripper squads, and replace them with either a 2nd Malan or 2 single squads of zoeys, dropping one or two gargoyles to get the free points. 2nd List is better.
Good luck ever finding a game when you are running 2 CAD and a Formation. Ever since BAO came out with the 2 source restriction, that has been a pretty common middle ground. But to put it another way, how would you like to face 7 Riptides, or 15 Drop pods? Drop your second CAD. Pick up something to replace it like a Malanthrope and a Crone. I assume you have Termagants with Spike Rifles. Because if not, you should probably stick to one of the better wargear options when you model them.
I would use either of these as a buy list. Get yourself to 1000 points, play a couple of games at that level and then decide where you want to go from there. You are definitely on the right track, so draw form these lists to pick units to include in your 1000 point list. Here is a suggestion that takes units you would probably want either way.
Malanthrope
Zoey <- not on either of your lists, but it is a good support unit that is cheap, and will give you some list building flexibility going forward.
3 Ripper Swarm + DS 10 Termagants (Fleshborers)
14 Gargoyles <- Buy 2 boxes. You can try running 20 Gargoyles without the zoey if you want, but this mix is better.
Hive Crone
syypher wrote: First lists I'm throwing around in my theory crafting with all of your guys help. (Thanks btw!!) I have a couple ripper swarms only right now so this is also going to be my buy list.
What do you guys think is a better TAC list? How would you modify it to give it more teeth if you could? (A lot of strong armies and net decked lists where I play)
For list #2, if you are thinking about bringing this to a tournament, better check with the TO (Tournament organizer). Most larger tournaments (the GT's) only allow a maximum of 2 sources. Your List #2 has 3 - 2 CAD's and 1 formation. That is usually not allowed at the bigger tourneys.
Oh... I really didn't know or understand the sources thing until now when you guys explained it. Makes sense though thanks for explaining it.
1) So even with the Malanthrope out people are still leaning towards the Zoans?
2) I haven't modeled the Termagants yet so is Fleshborers the better choice for the non-devourer ones?
I've edited the 2nd list with your guys suggestions. What do you think of it now? Kind of fear that my "tarpits" are no longer very... tarpit worthy...
syypher wrote: So even with the Malanthrope out people are still leaning towards the Zoans?
The Malanthrope is better, but also costs more. In a smaller point game a Zoey might be sufficient.
syypher wrote: I haven't modeled the Termagants yet so is Fleshborers the better choice for the non-devourer ones?
Fleshborers or Spinefists. Kinda depends on what you expect to face. If you are unsure, go for Fleshborers. You can't really go wrong there. You don't need an 18" gun for your front ranks, because you want to make certain you back rank Devourers have range (18"), so your front ranks will always be closer, usually within 12".
Don't worry....double CAD IS the way of the future, it's just taking everyone (the TOs) awhile to come around. As each new codex comes out...it will be more and more apparent that holding everyone back is ridiculous and unproductive.
Heck...just look at the Ork codex. Formations, a heavy slot that's filled with amazingly useful, cheap options, and a number of must have HQ units all add up to multi-CAD lists that can compete with the big boys. It's OBVIOUS that it was never meant to be fielded as one single CAD, and forcing the new books into the old paradigm just because "it's what we're used to" is short sighted, as well as damaging to the development of the meta.
What's everyone afraid of anyway? Everyone knows that smart gamers will figure out ways to make power-lists no matter what restrictions are put in place. There are PLENTY of rules most of us would like to see tweaked/changed (ignore cover could use some sort of nerf, for example), but we just accept the Rulebook's written word as gospel when it comes to 99% of what's provided. Why is Multi-Cad so hard to adopt? It's right there on page 118 ("No limit to the number of Detachments a Battle-forged army can include")
Let go of the reigns...the horses know the way home...
syypher wrote: Oh... I really didn't know or understand the sources thing until now when you guys explained it. Makes sense though thanks for explaining it.
1) So even with the Malanthrope out people are still leaning towards the Zoans?
2) I haven't modeled the Termagants yet so is Fleshborers the better choice for the non-devourer ones?
I've edited the 2nd list with your guys suggestions. What do you think of it now? Kind of fear that my "tarpits" are no longer very... tarpit worthy...
Malanthropes are far superior, even in smaller games. There is never an occassion not to take them unless you are playing really small games (i.e. 500-pts or less) or you want to go psyker-spam.
Fleshborers or spinefists are almost the same. Spinefists are better against lower toughness models and flyers. Fleshborers are better against higher toughness models and vehicles (for hitting rear armor). Frankly, I normally run fleshborers as I use my FMC's to take out other flyers and I have plenty of anti-horde weaponry (and also because all of my gants were modeled with fleshborers from previous editions).
With regards to your list, your really don't need a screening unit. The only reason why I took screening units before were to protect my tervigons in my previous lists. Everything else I view as sacrificial. I really don't care if my opponent assaults my carnifexes or whatever. I'll just spread them out so that if my opponent wanted to assault them, it would just take his assault units out of position. As for mobile cover, well, gargoyles work well enough for that.
I recommend the following changes to your list:
Reduce the number of termagants to 10 and take out their devourers. Then increase the number of gargoyles. If you are looking for a purely screening unit, then I'd recommend swapping out the gargoyles for hormagants.
syypher wrote: Oh... I really didn't know or understand the sources thing until now when you guys explained it. Makes sense though thanks for explaining it.
1) So even with the Malanthrope out people are still leaning towards the Zoans?
2) I haven't modeled the Termagants yet so is Fleshborers the better choice for the non-devourer ones?
I've edited the 2nd list with your guys suggestions. What do you think of it now? Kind of fear that my "tarpits" are no longer very... tarpit worthy...
Looks kinda nice. It might sound crazy, but I would drop one Carnifex, and buy two Broods of Hormagaunts as bubble wrap. Or just one Brood. The Gargoyles can screen just fine...different styles look for different units.
I like Spinefists, but that is for artistic reasons, the diff in play is real hard to notice (likely why it costs no points either way) I would not use any Devilgaunts in this list though, just buy more models (x20 Brood) You'll probibly be happier if you hold back one Malanthrope to babysit the LA at least at the start, to protect from counter battery.
The other possible change would be to swap a Dakkafex for a second Crone, but that is dependant on your local "meta" it's real hard to bet against Dakkafexen.
JY2, I wonder if your feeling on the Barbed Hieradule has changed from 6th (when you wrote the LoW tactica) to now.
I had my first experience playing him on Saturday when I took him into a 10K per side APOC game. Turn 1 he popped a Monolith. Turn 2 he killed 3 crisis suites, assaulted, and swept a unit of 115 Necron warriors with 2 attached ICs. There were both a Transcendent C'Tan (Hiding behind the monolith I popped), and a Tesseract Vault in the game, and they are both much scarier than the Barbed Hieradule, but he took quite a lot of fire. 18 Broadsides, 3 fusion suites, and 3 Riptides shot at him on one turn.
Suffice to say, my in game experience far exceeded my expectations based on reading his rules.
syypher wrote: Oh... I really didn't know or understand the sources thing until now when you guys explained it. Makes sense though thanks for explaining it.
1) So even with the Malanthrope out people are still leaning towards the Zoans?
2) I haven't modeled the Termagants yet so is Fleshborers the better choice for the non-devourer ones?
I've edited the 2nd list with your guys suggestions. What do you think of it now? Kind of fear that my "tarpits" are no longer very... tarpit worthy...
Malanthropes are far superior, even in smaller games. There is never an occassion not to take them unless you are playing really small games (i.e. 500-pts or less) or you want to go psyker-spam.
Fleshborers or spinefists are almost the same. Spinefists are better against lower toughness models and flyers. Fleshborers are better against higher toughness models and vehicles (for hitting rear armor). Frankly, I normally run fleshborers as I use my FMC's to take out other flyers and I have plenty of anti-horde weaponry (and also because all of my gants were modeled with fleshborers from previous editions).
With regards to your list, your really don't need a screening unit. The only reason why I took screening units before were to protect my tervigons in my previous lists. Everything else I view as sacrificial. I really don't care if my opponent assaults my carnifexes or whatever. I'll just spread them out so that if my opponent wanted to assault them, it would just take his assault units out of position. As for mobile cover, well, gargoyles work well enough for that.
I recommend the following changes to your list:
Reduce the number of termagants to 10 and take out their devourers. Then increase the number of gargoyles. If you are looking for a purely screening unit, then I'd recommend swapping out the gargoyles for hormagants.
Everything else is good.
Thanks everyone! Got a couple questions though that spawned from that now though...
1) Why don't I need a screening unit jy2? It seems like there are things out there that we just can't deal with without putting TOO much attention to. Like Wraightknights, Dreadknights, Ctans etc. Like I said before guys, our meta is really competitive stuff. I see a lot of tri-WKs, Ctans etc. By what I've read on this thread and other tyranid forums, the best way we can deal with those things are just tarpitting them down for as long as we can.
2) @jy2: Why reduce the Termagants to 10 instead of just swapping them out with a DS Ripper unit? Is it so they can provide some cover turn 1?
3) @pinecone77: Why Hormagants over Termagants?
4) TBH, and this is just by reading the forums... Is the best way to really deal with Ctans, Wraightknights, Imperial Knights etc. just to tarpit them? In the past I've usually played the "top tier" codexes and for my targets that were a high priority, I could usually find some way to shoot or melee it to death. I'm having a hard time figuring out the puzzle for Nids in how to deal with "tough" targets. Like the ones I listed. T9 3+ 4++ Ctans... T8 3+ Wraightknights... IKs... it just seems TOO overwhelming. A lot of our LFGS will take 3-4 IKs and 2-3 WKs on a regular basis. I have NOTHING against it and I like fighting hard armies... but I don't know what tools best to use in our codex. Thoughts?
He's wrong, while you needn't be dedicating points toward screening (both cover and bubble wrap/tarpit) units, but your mandatory troops should be put to good work giving your Carnifexes & Exocrine a 3+ save. You are crazy to throw this away. 20 Gants are less of a waste than any other unit in the des. I prefer Terms that 20 pts separation between Horms & Terms can be the difference between one MC and a better one. If that wasn't the case Id probably upgrade to the Horms.
SHUPPET wrote: I agree with you on Rippers, but why Horms over Terms & Rips? Not doubting you, just hoping to learn
I'd think the main thing is that Hormagaunts can cover more ground in the course of the game than the other troop options, meaning they can potentially secure more objectives in Maelstrom. Termagants are more for protecting objectives than seizing them and Rippers are more or less one use once they have burrowed in.
Basically think of them as being a 1 point Fleet upgrade for Termagants that exchanges their ranged capability for an enhanced run and some combat boosts.
Harpies can be situationally useful against Ork Green Tide or Guard blob. Otherwise they are not very good. Even in those favorable matchups, crones are often going to be better because they ignore cover.
Stock I'd somewhat agree, but what about the Heavy Venom Cannon variant as a TAC choice? The HVC is arguably more reliable than Tentaclids against vehicles (both are going to be glancing things to death, but the HVC is more accurate, multiple use, and scores pens easier for debilitating effects/disabling quantum shielding) and can be turned against infantry without sacrificing too much utility.
Harpies took pretty much every nerf 7th edition had to offer.
I'm not sure I agree. The only one that really hurts them is the loss of the ability to drop out of swooping to assault (making it harder to use Sonic Screech) and the Smash nerf. They weren't really impacted by the Vector Strike nerf since they are generally going to use their Spore Cysts (their strength is too low to reliably hurt vehicles). They were arguably buffed with the new rules for Grounding and the new rules (or lack thereof) for Blasts vs Ruins.
syypher wrote: 1) Why don't I need a screening unit jy2? It seems like there are things out there that we just can't deal with without putting TOO much attention to. Like Wraightknights, Dreadknights, Ctans etc. Like I said before guys, our meta is really competitive stuff. I see a lot of tri-WKs, Ctans etc. By what I've read on this thread and other tyranid forums, the best way we can deal with those things are just tarpitting them down for as long as we can.
A screen and a tarpit are different things. I think what he meant is that the gargoyles provided enough of a screen that you didn't need the Gants. He is probably right, but I would encourage you to get a few games under your belt before being too definitive on these things. JY2 has a very specific play style that tends to involve a more maneuver based finesses. I play a style that might be called "Threat neutralization" I'm much more aggressive, most likely to my detriment, though I am very, very successful in my local meta.
syypher wrote: 2) @jy2: Why reduce the Termagants to 10 instead of just swapping them out with a DS Ripper unit? Is it so they can provide some cover turn 1?
His suggestion is probably a good one. The thing is, a unit needs to reach a certain lethality threshold to be worth spending additional points on. 5 Devourers do not get it quite there. 10 Devourers might.
syypher wrote: 3) @pinecone77: Why Hormagants over Termagants?
Strat_N8 gave the most consice summation of the differences between Rippers, Terms, and Horms I've seen in a long, long time. He is 100% right.
syypher wrote: 4) TBH, and this is just by reading the forums... Is the best way to really deal with Ctans, Wraightknights, Imperial Knights etc. just to tarpit them? In the past I've usually played the "top tier" codexes and for my targets that were a high priority, I could usually find some way to shoot or melee it to death. I'm having a hard time figuring out the puzzle for Nids in how to deal with "tough" targets. Like the ones I listed. T9 3+ 4++ Ctans... T8 3+ Wraightknights... IKs... it just seems TOO overwhelming. A lot of our LFGS will take 3-4 IKs and 2-3 WKs on a regular basis. I have NOTHING against it and I like fighting hard armies... but I don't know what tools best to use in our codex. Thoughts?
The most threatening thing a Wraith Knight or Ctan will ever see is a squad of 20 Hormagants with Poison. Imperial Knights are another matter. Best way to take them out is Flying Circus. Flyrants and Crones can down a Knight, remaining fairly safe while doing so. Carnifexes are good at finishing it off in assault, but because Knights are faster, it is hard to pull it off. The main thing to remember is Knights have trouble scoring. You don't need to kill the knights to win. Just out score them. Also remember that you don't have to play A-Holes. There is supposedly a guy in my area who plays 5 Knights. I've never met him, but I'm told he only plays kill points, and won't do any other mission type. Because of this I'm pretty sure no one has ever agreed to play him more than once. A certain type of player is not fun to play against.
I don't have 20 Poison Gaunts in my TAC list, so when I see things like a Wraith Knight, I tarpit them when I can. Gargoyles work good for this. If I run into Knights, I surround them without assaulting with things like Gargoyles. It takes away their greatest asset (mobility). Tarpitting them doesn't work as well as Wraith Knights, but their shooting isn't the scariest thing in the world for most Tyranid lists. An alternative options is to bring out The Tyranid LOW.
syypher wrote: 1) Why don't I need a screening unit jy2? It seems like there are things out there that we just can't deal with without putting TOO much attention to. Like Wraightknights, Dreadknights, Ctans etc. Like I said before guys, our meta is really competitive stuff. I see a lot of tri-WKs, Ctans etc. By what I've read on this thread and other tyranid forums, the best way we can deal with those things are just tarpitting them down for as long as we can.
A screen and a tarpit are different things. I think what he meant is that the gargoyles provided enough of a screen that you didn't need the Gants. He is probably right, but I would encourage you to get a few games under your belt before being too definitive on these things. JY2 has a very specific play style that tends to involve a more maneuver based finesses. I play a style that might be called "Threat neutralization" I'm much more aggressive, most likely to my detriment, though I am very, very successful in my local meta.
syypher wrote: 2) @jy2: Why reduce the Termagants to 10 instead of just swapping them out with a DS Ripper unit? Is it so they can provide some cover turn 1?
His suggestion is probably a good one. The thing is, a unit needs to reach a certain lethality threshold to be worth spending additional points on. 5 Devourers do not get it quite there. 10 Devourers might.
syypher wrote: 3) @pinecone77: Why Hormagants over Termagants?
Strat_N8 gave the most consice summation of the differences between Rippers, Terms, and Horms I've seen in a long, long time. He is 100% right.
syypher wrote: 4) TBH, and this is just by reading the forums... Is the best way to really deal with Ctans, Wraightknights, Imperial Knights etc. just to tarpit them? In the past I've usually played the "top tier" codexes and for my targets that were a high priority, I could usually find some way to shoot or melee it to death. I'm having a hard time figuring out the puzzle for Nids in how to deal with "tough" targets. Like the ones I listed. T9 3+ 4++ Ctans... T8 3+ Wraightknights... IKs... it just seems TOO overwhelming. A lot of our LFGS will take 3-4 IKs and 2-3 WKs on a regular basis. I have NOTHING against it and I like fighting hard armies... but I don't know what tools best to use in our codex. Thoughts?
The most threatening thing a Wraith Knight or Ctan will ever see is a squad of 20 Hormagants with Poison. Imperial Knights are another matter. Best way to take them out is Flying Circus. Flyrants and Crones can down a Knight, remaining fairly safe while doing so. Carnifexes are good at finishing it off in assault, but because Knights are faster, it is hard to pull it off. The main thing to remember is Knights have trouble scoring. You don't need to kill the knights to win. Just out score them. Also remember that you don't have to play A-Holes. There is supposedly a guy in my area who plays 5 Knights. I've never met him, but I'm told he only plays kill points, and won't do any other mission type. Because of this I'm pretty sure no one has ever agreed to play him more than once. A certain type of player is not fun to play against.
I don't have 20 Poison Gaunts in my TAC list, so when I see things like a Wraith Knight, I tarpit them when I can. Gargoyles work good for this. If I run into Knights, I surround them without assaulting with things like Gargoyles. It takes away their greatest asset (mobility). Tarpitting them doesn't work as well as Wraith Knights, but their shooting isn't the scariest thing in the world for most Tyranid lists. An alternative options is to bring out The Tyranid LOW.
Thank you for the follow up responses. Very insightful.
I still have a bit of hesitation with the last question and responses I've been getting. Sometimes you can't choose to not play them, like in a tournament setting where you expect people to bring tough lists. I can definitely see a unit of 20 Gargs tarpitting down a Wraithknight fairly easily, but what if they bring 2 or 3? How do you deal with the rest as they attempt to ID you Fexes and Mawlocs each round ~___~ (Played this in a recent game borrowing a friends Nids models and it was really scary every round he shot at them...)
Harpies can be situationally useful against Ork Green Tide or Guard blob. Otherwise they are not very good. Even in those favorable matchups, crones are often going to be better because they ignore cover.
Stock I'd somewhat agree, but what about the Heavy Venom Cannon variant as a TAC choice? The HVC is arguably more reliable than Tentaclids against vehicles (both are going to be glancing things to death, but the HVC is more accurate, multiple use, and scores pens easier for debilitating effects/disabling quantum shielding) and can be turned against infantry without sacrificing too much utility.
HVC isn't as good as you think. It can strip up to one HP a turn. Crone is doing that with VS, and Crone is ignoring Cover. Tentaclids are only for turns when the crone is out of position, flying vehicles, or very high armor (13 & 14). HVC isn't good against armor that high. You've only got a 33% chance of glancing AV14. Tentaclids have a 42% chance. Against anything AV12 or below, you should have devourers to take care of it. HVC is not your solution there either. HVC's main purpose was to Pen stuff and hope for a 6. Now that a 6 doesn't kill, they are not so good.
BTW, that is one of the 7th edition nerfs that hit the Crone. And don't kid yourself about vector strike. D3+1 S5 AP:3 ignore cover auto hits did much more against most things than a S4 AP:4 Large blast that scatters. Marine Bikes for instance, feared the vector strike of a Harpy, but not its Spore bomb.
Another nerf the affects the harpy in 7th is the change to Jink. If it Jinks, the Harpy can do very, very little. The Crone, on the other hand can still vector strike (its primary attack), and also snapshoot a tentaclid.
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syypher wrote: I still have a bit of hesitation with the last question and responses I've been getting. Sometimes you can't choose to not play them, like in a tournament setting where you expect people to bring tough lists. I can definitely see a unit of 20 Gargs tarpitting down a Wraithknight fairly easily, but what if they bring 2 or 3? How do you deal with the rest as they attempt to ID you Fexes and Mawlocs each round ~___~ (Played this in a recent game borrowing a friends Nids models and it was really scary every round he shot at them...)
If they bring 3 Wraith Knights, they have an enormous amount of points in those models. Kill everything else, and you will usually win that game. I don't think I've ever lost to an opponent who brought 3 Wraith Knights, though I did lose to a 2 Wraith Knight list that beat me mainly because the war walkers made 4 of 5 cover saves, and then killed my dakka Flyrant in the air on turn 1. I had the game won on turn 5, because a squad of 3 Hormagants were tarpitting a wraith knight on top of an objective. But it finished them on Turn 6. I still had a chance if my Carnifex had made a 10" charge on 2 Wraith Guard, I would have won.
Another nerf the affects the harpy in 7th is the change to Jink. If it Jinks, the Harpy can do very, very little. The Crone, on the other hand can still vector strike (its primary attack), and also snapshoot a tentaclid.
N.I.B. wrote: Maelstrom is the main (only) reason as to why so many Tyranid players are going with Rippers as their troop units of choice. As mentioned, the ability to deepstrike onto forward objectives without need of synapse babysitting, is STRONK! I run 4x3 Rippers in my 2k lists, and they always deliver. Maelstrom (with slight adjustments) are becoming the go-to way to play in both tournaments and casual games in my area.
I prefer Gargoyles for screening duties, but sometime I include a cheap Termagant screen instead, as a complement to the Rippers.
I don't think you are correct. Maelstrom is not great for rippers because they have about 50% chance to net you 1 point and then die. Eternal war is much better. They net you more points, and you can hide them out of LOS and then jump out on the last turn. I think it is the fact that I play Maelstrom almost exclusively that has me convinced that rippers are a bad choice. People that play Eternal war or modified eternal war (Like BAO scenarios) find rippers to be not terrible.
Hormagants are the troop of choice for Maelstrom, hands down.
Check your math, it's way higher than a 50% chance. First it's the 'hits' on the scatter die, then if you do scatter it's the average scatter distance minus the width of the Ripper base that you place on the objective side of the scattering base, minus the average running distance in the shooting phase, and minus the 3" radius you need to be inside of the objective. I've yet to fail to score with Rippers, after deepstrike + running.
And saying 'then die' is just internet hyperbole. First, after you score the objective, the mission card is discarded which normally means the immediate incentive for your opponent to kill the unit is lost. But since each objective can come up twice, they sometimes get a double-dip on the spot. At the very least, since there are objectives like 'claim more objectives than your opponent', and 'claim all objectives'.
Sometimes you place objectives inside terrain, which help Rippers survive. And Gants die just as easy.
The advantage of the Rippers is that they don't need synapse - granted you already are on the objective. If not, you need them to not IB so they can move there in that crucial last turn, thus you need synapse and then you'd be better off with Hormagaunts anyway, since they move faster and provide screen and a bit of cc punch.
Rippers grab those objectives out on the fringes from turn 2 better than any other Tyranid troop choice. And they don't need babysitting to deliver.
Can Harpies still make bombing runs if it has Jinked? I have 135 points left in my current 1850 list and I'm wondering whether it's a worthwhile investment to accompany the Biovores (Living Artillery) and Flyrants.
EDIT: Are Tyranid Shrikes/Warriors viable? I could fit in a group of three Shrikes with Boneswords...not ideal but it does fill out the points, unsure on what to take.
N.I.B. wrote: Maelstrom is the main (only) reason as to why so many Tyranid players are going with Rippers as their troop units of choice. As mentioned, the ability to deepstrike onto forward objectives without need of synapse babysitting, is STRONK! I run 4x3 Rippers in my 2k lists, and they always deliver. Maelstrom (with slight adjustments) are becoming the go-to way to play in both tournaments and casual games in my area.
I prefer Gargoyles for screening duties, but sometime I include a cheap Termagant screen instead, as a complement to the Rippers.
I don't think you are correct. Maelstrom is not great for rippers because they have about 50% chance to net you 1 point and then die. Eternal war is much better. They net you more points, and you can hide them out of LOS and then jump out on the last turn. I think it is the fact that I play Maelstrom almost exclusively that has me convinced that rippers are a bad choice. People that play Eternal war or modified eternal war (Like BAO scenarios) find rippers to be not terrible.
Hormagants are the troop of choice for Maelstrom, hands down.
Check your math, it's way higher than a 50% chance. First it's the 'hits' on the scatter die, then if you do scatter it's the average scatter distance minus the width of the Ripper base that you place on the objective side of the scattering base, minus the average running distance in the shooting phase, and minus the 3" radius you need to be inside of the objective. I've yet to fail to score with Rippers, after deepstrike + running.
So I figure they scatter too far to run back or mishap about 15% of the time. They score 1 point, and then manage to survive about 10% of the time. 25% of the time, you either don't have a card for rippers to score, or you've already got units in place to score whatever objective rippers end up scoring. The other 50% they do what you want them to, score 1 point and then die. Its not a scientific calculation, but I have run rippers in quite a lot of games against quite a lot of opponents, so I've got a pretty good feel for their capabilities.
N.I.B. wrote: Rippers grab those objectives out on the fringes from turn 2 better than any other Tyranid troop choice. And they don't need babysitting to deliver.
I always try to group the objectives closely in the middle of the table. It gives me the most chance to utilize my slow, short range MC's like Carnifexes. It almost never benefits my opponent more than me, and this might be because my meta is obsessed with gunlines. If an objective is far out on the edge, it is a good bet that my opponent doesn't have much controlling it, so I'll just kill what is there and put a non-obsec unit on it. If it is in my opponent's backfield, and well defended, Rippers aren't going to do me much good anyways. Perhaps against an assaulty death star, I might spread them out a bit more, but I rarely see those sorts of lists.
N.I.B. wrote: And saying 'then die' is just internet hyperbole. First, after you score the objective, the mission card is discarded which normally means the immediate incentive for your opponent to kill the unit is lost. But since each objective can come up twice, they sometimes get a double-dip on the spot. At the very least, since there are objectives like 'claim more objectives than your opponent', and 'claim all objectives'.
I run an army without many soft targets. Rippers give my opponents a soft targets without support from the rest of my army. The only time I have ever seen units of rippers survive on the table for more than 2 turns is when they have no objectives to claim, and so they just hide behind terrain. That isn't internet hyperbole, that is 30+ games with rippers in my lists. I also see a good amount of MSU. A small unit can kill rippers without compromising the firepower of the rest of its army.
N.I.B. wrote: Sometimes you place objectives inside terrain, which help Rippers survive.
Generally I don't. If my opponent wants to score the objective, I want to have fire lanes on his scoring unit.
Not even close. 1) a min squad of gants have an extra wound. 2) a squad of gants is large enough to congaline into cover and out of line of sight. 3) a Squad of gants is more often in the range of support like venoms. 4) a squad of gants is usually backed up by heavies who are better target, while a squad of rippers is usually off on its own. 5) S6+ IDs rippers. Flamers, and blasts do double damage. There is a ton of S6+ out there. This is a myth that looks reasonable on paper, but when you start testing it in actual games, you will see the difference. Ask yourself the question, How many times have I lost 1/2 of a squad of rippers? How many times have I had Rippers with 1 - 3 wounds left come up big for me later in the game?
syypher wrote: Oh... I really didn't know or understand the sources thing until now when you guys explained it. Makes sense though thanks for explaining it.
1) So even with the Malanthrope out people are still leaning towards the Zoans?
2) I haven't modeled the Termagants yet so is Fleshborers the better choice for the non-devourer ones?
I've edited the 2nd list with your guys suggestions. What do you think of it now? Kind of fear that my "tarpits" are no longer very... tarpit worthy...
Malanthropes are far superior, even in smaller games. There is never an occassion not to take them unless you are playing really small games (i.e. 500-pts or less) or you want to go psyker-spam.
Fleshborers or spinefists are almost the same. Spinefists are better against lower toughness models and flyers. Fleshborers are better against higher toughness models and vehicles (for hitting rear armor). Frankly, I normally run fleshborers as I use my FMC's to take out other flyers and I have plenty of anti-horde weaponry (and also because all of my gants were modeled with fleshborers from previous editions).
With regards to your list, your really don't need a screening unit. The only reason why I took screening units before were to protect my tervigons in my previous lists. Everything else I view as sacrificial. I really don't care if my opponent assaults my carnifexes or whatever. I'll just spread them out so that if my opponent wanted to assault them, it would just take his assault units out of position. As for mobile cover, well, gargoyles work well enough for that.
I recommend the following changes to your list:
Reduce the number of termagants to 10 and take out their devourers. Then increase the number of gargoyles. If you are looking for a purely screening unit, then I'd recommend swapping out the gargoyles for hormagants.
Everything else is good.
Thanks everyone! Got a couple questions though that spawned from that now though...
1) Why don't I need a screening unit jy2? It seems like there are things out there that we just can't deal with without putting TOO much attention to. Like Wraightknights, Dreadknights, Ctans etc. Like I said before guys, our meta is really competitive stuff. I see a lot of tri-WKs, Ctans etc. By what I've read on this thread and other tyranid forums, the best way we can deal with those things are just tarpitting them down for as long as we can.
2) @jy2: Why reduce the Termagants to 10 instead of just swapping them out with a DS Ripper unit? Is it so they can provide some cover turn 1?
3) @pinecone77: Why Hormagants over Termagants?
4) TBH, and this is just by reading the forums... Is the best way to really deal with Ctans, Wraightknights, Imperial Knights etc. just to tarpit them? In the past I've usually played the "top tier" codexes and for my targets that were a high priority, I could usually find some way to shoot or melee it to death. I'm having a hard time figuring out the puzzle for Nids in how to deal with "tough" targets. Like the ones I listed. T9 3+ 4++ Ctans... T8 3+ Wraightknights... IKs... it just seems TOO overwhelming. A lot of our LFGS will take 3-4 IKs and 2-3 WKs on a regular basis. I have NOTHING against it and I like fighting hard armies... but I don't know what tools best to use in our codex. Thoughts?
"Hello, my name is pinecone, and I am a Hormagaunt lover" The reason I like Hormagaunts as screening units is that they are Fast, so they seldom hold up the big bug. And they are surprisingly durable, because all the fire goes at the Big Bug, so they often arrive in good condition. And as weak as they are, they still rawk if you can get a charge home. Its always about synergy with Nids.
So I look at a list, and see a "Bug star" of Twin Dakkafexen, Hormie screen, and a Malanthrope.(or a Zoey+ Veno. ) Make sure you have a second (and third) threat and you can win games. About the only "giantkiller" we have is Boneswords. The reason I so feverously market Electro-bug Hives is that we have so few answers for AV, and Haywire is a Big help. Vector striking is still a fair answer as well.
Not so much good, just flexible and usable if mounted on a Harpy. Being a S9 blast with good range it can basically be used against anything, allowing it to plug holes in one's arsenal in game turn-by-turn (albeit perhaps not as effectively as more specialized weapons). On the Harpy at least it is also probably the most accurate high strength weapon in the codex, which also adds a bit of utility.
tag8833 wrote: It can strip up to one HP a turn. Crone is doing that with VS, and Crone is ignoring Cover. Tentaclids are only for turns when the crone is out of position, flying vehicles, or very high armor (13 & 14).
On the other hand, a HVC Harpy can start stripping hull points from the first turn onward and can continue to attack targets every turn it is on the board. The Crone first has to get close enough that it can pass over the target and then it has to spend a turn to bring itself back around for another pass.
HVC isn't good against armor that high. You've only got a 33% chance of glancing AV14Tentaclids have a 42% chance.
Fair enough, though out of curiosity how does the math look if the roll to hit is factored into the odds of successfully scoring a glance? I've generally had poor results throwing Tentaclids at ground vehicles, mostly due to half the shots missing.
tag8833 wrote: BTW, that is one of the 7th edition nerfs that hit the Crone. And don't kid yourself about vector strike. D3+1 S5 AP:3 ignore cover auto hits did much more against most things than a S4 AP:4 Large blast that scatters. Marine Bikes for instance, feared the vector strike of a Harpy, but not its Spore bomb.
I admittedly haven't really used the Harpy's vector strike much at all, as most of our opponents are Xenos rather than Marines so the bombing run has generally been more destructive (more hits). Still a fair point.
Also as an aside, the Spore Cysts only scatter D6'' rather than 2D6''. I don't see any reason the Harpy can't use its BS to reduce the scatter, so at most the blast will go 3''.
Another nerf the affects the harpy in 7th is the change to Jink. If it Jinks, the Harpy can do very, very little. The Crone, on the other hand can still vector strike (its primary attack), and also snapshoot a tentaclid.
Actually I'd consider the Jink change a small buff, since it disabled the Harpy in 6th as well. Now when it jinks it gets a ruins-equivalent cover save for its trouble (2+ if near a Malanthrope/Venomthrope). Also unlike the Crone, the Harpy has a real reason to try to get in close combat in the form of its -5 Initiative penalty (huge help vs things like Knights that otherwise get to swing before Carnifexes), so it can actually make use of the change that allows Jink to be used in both flight modes.
HVC isn't good against armor that high. You've only got a 33% chance of glancing AV14. Tentaclids have a 42% chance.
Fair enough, though out of curiosity how does the math look if the roll to hit is factored into the odds of successfully scoring a glance? I've generally had poor results throwing Tentaclids at ground vehicles, mostly due to half the shots missing.
That is factored in for the tentaclids. They hit 1/2 of the time. The glance 5/6 of the time. 1/2 * 5/6 = 5/12 = 41.6666%. It is really, really hard to calculate the chance to hit with a blast weapon because of scatter distance. Since the Harpy is Twin linked, I just assumed it hit 100% of the time. In reality it would be less. Hitting every times, you glance 1/3 times against AV14. So 1/3 or 33%
Another nerf the affects the harpy in 7th is the change to Jink. If it Jinks, the Harpy can do very, very little. The Crone, on the other hand can still vector strike (its primary attack), and also snapshoot a tentaclid.
Actually I'd consider the Jink change a small buff, since it disabled the Harpy in 6th as well. Now when it jinks it gets a ruins-equivalent cover save for its trouble (2+ if near a Malanthrope/Venomthrope). Also unlike the Crone, the Harpy has a real reason to try to get in close combat in the form of its -5 Initiative penalty (huge help vs things like Knights that otherwise get to swing before Carnifexes), so it can actually make use of the change that allows Jink to be used in both flight modes.
I didn't spell that out all of the way. In 6th, when the Harpy Jinked, it could still vector strike and do respectable damage, or land and assault something to contribute in that way. In 7th, a Harpy vector strike is a pretty poor replacement for its offensive power. I always assumed that it could not drop bombs on the turn it jinked, but I don't think I ever looked it up to check. If so, then it isn't as much of a nerf.
Another nerf the affects the harpy in 7th is the change to Jink. If it Jinks, the Harpy can do very, very little. The Crone, on the other hand can still vector strike (its primary attack), and also snapshoot a tentaclid.
Actually I'd consider the Jink change a small buff, since it disabled the Harpy in 6th as well. Now when it jinks it gets a ruins-equivalent cover save for its trouble (2+ if near a Malanthrope/Venomthrope). Also unlike the Crone, the Harpy has a real reason to try to get in close combat in the form of its -5 Initiative penalty (huge help vs things like Knights that otherwise get to swing before Carnifexes), so it can actually make use of the change that allows Jink to be used in both flight modes.
I didn't spell that out all of the way. In 6th, when the Harpy Jinked, it could still vector strike and do respectable damage, or land and assault something to contribute in that way. In 7th, a Harpy vector strike is a pretty poor replacement for its offensive power. I always assumed that it could not drop bombs on the turn it jinked, but I don't think I ever looked it up to check. If so, then it isn't as much of a nerf.
Hmmm... its weird that you are arguing with yourself, but regardless, I don't think its safe to say the jink is in any way a buff to Harpy because it allows it to jink the turn before CC... last edition, it didn't have to wait a turn at all and could just swoop straight down into combat, so having to jink the turn before is undeniably a nerf, if still usable.
Malanthrpe would go inside the Bastion and provide a large bubble for Shrouded and Synapse.The Hormagaunts would screen the Big Bugs while the Gargoyles screen the Shrikes and give them cover saves. Thoughts?
What are people's opinions on #? As they are T5 with regen, is one enough?
Also, I have previously taken 1 venom and 1 zoay as support units but now with the inclusion of the malan- does anyone even need to consider these two?
I know zoeys are a little different to venoms, being invunlerable physic, synaspe lampshades but...considering their performance in the many games I've played with them, I feel as if it might be time for them to take the bench.( they always fail to get powers off.)
Anyone agree?
What are people's opinions on #? As they are T5 with regen, is one enough?
Also, I have previously taken 1 venom and 1 zoay as support units but now with the inclusion of the malan- does anyone even need to consider these two?
I know zoeys are a little different to venoms, being invunlerable physic, synaspe lampshades but...considering their performance in the many games I've played with them, I feel as if it might be time for them to take the bench.( they always fail to get powers off.)
Anyone agree?
Looks good! I'm still waiting on my Malanthropes so I haven't played any games with them yet, but the number you run depends on your list. I'm working towards a dakkafex heavy list with Living Artillery (with 2 flyrants of course) so I'll probably run 2. They aren't as useful in skyblight lists IMO.
What are people's opinions on #? As they are T5 with regen, is one enough?
Also, I have previously taken 1 venom and 1 zoay as support units but now with the inclusion of the malan- does anyone even need to consider these two?
I know zoeys are a little different to venoms, being invunlerable physic, synaspe lampshades but...considering their performance in the many games I've played with them, I feel as if it might be time for them to take the bench.( they always fail to get powers off.)
Anyone agree?
Looks good! I'm still waiting on my Malanthropes so I haven't played any games with them yet, but the number you run depends on your list. I'm working towards a dakkafex heavy list with Living Artillery (with 2 flyrants of course) so I'll probably run 2. They aren't as useful in skyblight lists IMO.
I've completely given up on skyblight, I'd much rather go for LAN if I'm going to run a formation.
The fact that malanthrope a can qiute comfortably move up the board makes me want to take 2 but the points....
You do not want to take 2. That's like 200 pts thrown away in a lot of match ups, to make some other 200 pt MCs 1/3 more durable in others. 1 is enough, accept that it's an investment that is going to die, make it a cost effective trade off or if it isn't, you only wasted 100 pts. You don't need to throw any more points trying to secure this cover save, take another Carnifexes instead, or Warriors if you want Synapse.
For the most part, I agree. It is an easy trap to load up on support units, its like taking too many upgrades on a unit.
The malanthrope, however, can provide more than shrouded. It also provides synapse, does a decent job in CC, and can provide PE once an enemy is unit is destroyed, and can issue/accept challenges.
The value in taking 2 comes down to how many other units/models it will be benefiting, and which of its traits you really need.
What are people's opinions on #? As they are T5 with regen, is one enough?
Also, I have previously taken 1 venom and 1 zoay as support units but now with the inclusion of the malan- does anyone even need to consider these two?
I know zoeys are a little different to venoms, being invunlerable physic, synaspe lampshades but...considering their performance in the many games I've played with them, I feel as if it might be time for them to take the bench.( they always fail to get powers off.)
Anyone agree?
Looks good! I'm still waiting on my Malanthropes so I haven't played any games with them yet, but the number you run depends on your list. I'm working towards a dakkafex heavy list with Living Artillery (with 2 flyrants of course) so I'll probably run 2. They aren't as useful in skyblight lists IMO.
I've completely given up on skyblight, I'd much rather go for LAN if I'm going to run a formation.
The fact that malanthrope a can qiute comfortably move up the board makes me want to take 2 but the points....
My initial instinct was the same as yours. I was leaning toward two, and I've been proxying them in my list. I am wondering if 1 would be better. I'm going to keep playing 2 until I lose a game, and then I'll switch to one and see how that works. The advantage of 2, is that they allow me to spread out much more. Having a wider deployment helps quite a bit. Before I was running 2 Zoeys and 1 Venom (in a box), and that forced me to cram everything into one section of the DZ. With 2 sources of shrouded, I can have 2 strong positions with my larger screens / tarpits located between them being double covered by shrouded so that they can't lose it when they loose a few models. Also Malans give up first blood quite a bit harder than Zoeys.
I've got a question for those who face top tier marine lists. The marine players in my area are in looooooove with the Thunderfire cannon. Many lists are starting to include 2 of them. They have the power to evaporate my tarpits, but I find that I don't need tarpits generally against marines. It makes them feel good on turn 1 or 2 when they've killed 1/2 of my models, but they still get tabled on turn 4 or 5 once my big guys get down to business. Is there a marine build that I need a tarpit against?
Sort of, not really. Bikes can cut through a pit unless its big enough, and they can always hit an run making it a futile prospect. Drop pod alpha's only matter for screening purposes, otherwise its just another blob of marines. The Grav star can usually just try to GoI out of a tarpit.
SHUPPET wrote:You do not want to take 2. That's like 200 pts thrown away in a lot of match ups, to make some other 200 pt MCs 1/3 more durable in others. 1 is enough, accept that it's an investment that is going to die, make it a cost effective trade off or if it isn't, you only wasted 100 pts. You don't need to throw any more points trying to secure this cover save, take another Carnifexes instead, or Warriors if you want Synapse.
Good point. I think the first malanthrope is a given if you have a lot of units on the ground. A second one isn't always a waste of points though. Whether or not you choose to include a second depends on the rest of your list. For example if your only other synapse is a unit of warriors from LAN and Flyrants, I'd take 2.
coredump wrote:For the most part, I agree. It is an easy trap to load up on support units, its like taking too many upgrades on a unit.
The malanthrope, however, can provide more than shrouded. It also provides synapse, does a decent job in CC, and can provide PE once an enemy is unit is destroyed, and can issue/accept challenges.
The value in taking 2 comes down to how many other units/models it will be benefiting, and which of its traits you really need.
Ive always used Gargoyles on their flying bases, but if Im going to use them in my tourney army I need to rebase them. Does everyone just put them on terminator size bases, is that the accepted size?
Iechine wrote: Ive always used Gargoyles on their flying bases, but if Im going to use them in my tourney army I need to rebase them. Does everyone just put them on terminator size bases, is that the accepted size?
Why would you need to rebase them? Are the flying bases not legal at the tournament or something? If you do, they should be on the small infantry base.
To answer both, Im trying to make my army 'look nice' and also have a display board feel that would be better accomplished by them being on bases instead of the clear stands.
Ive never seen them rebased on small infantry bases, thats much smaller than what they come with.
BTW Im on vacation and thats why I havent just gone and measured them, Im not THAT lazy.
Iechine wrote: To answer both, Im trying to make my army 'look nice' and also have a display board feel that would be better accomplished by them being on bases instead of the clear stands.
Ive never seen them rebased on small infantry bases, thats much smaller than what they come with.
BTW Im on vacation and thats why I havent just gone and measured them, Im not THAT lazy.
If we're talking about Gargoyles, infantry bases should be close to the same size. 40mm are nearly twice as big. Compare them to scourges(jump nfantry with an infantry base), or jump pack marines. All come on infantry bases, and are the same size as a gargoyle. 40mm are for terminators and warriors.
Iechine wrote: But, have you seen the size of regular gargoyle bases? much larger, Im looking to avoid MFA.
I've got 20 gargoyles that I purchased used from ebay. They are on small infantry bases instead of flight stands. I hate it for a number of reasons. #1 is that with a diameter so Small, they fall over at the smallest tremor of the table. If you want to put them on bases that aren't flying bases I suggest you get non-GW bases, because small infantry are too small. 40mm (Warrior / Terminator) bases are too big. Find something in between closer to the flight stands that come with them.
You could nearly put them on w/e size base. The size of the model and it's wings make the size of the base sort of irrelevant. You're not going to be able to pack them in any closer with a small base.
Iechine wrote: But, have you seen the size of regular gargoyle bases? much larger, Im looking to avoid MFA.
Yes, I have twenty of them! If I remember right they're the same size as a regular infantry base- although I think the old metal ones had a slightly larger base than they have now. Otherwise I don't know where you're getting the idea that they're so huge. As infantry, they should be on infantry bases if you aren't using the flight stands they come with. You could also just base the flight stand base. They take primer/paint/glue just fine.
I'll post a size comparison when I get home.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, I stand corrected! It seems the flying base is between the two base sizes.
Spoiler:
I think you'd be best off either leaving them be, or basing the flight bases to avoid calls of shenanigans.
There's a tournament coming up in a few months and it's the first one I'll be playing where LOW will be allowed.
I've faced off a fair few before and to be honest I'm not worried about them. Nids have some "alright" LOW but I'm wondering if they are worth bringing in a LOW environment or am I better off taking a list without them? Blowing 535-800 pts is crippling on an army, especially if its on a unit that underachieves.
(I know JY2 gave a pretty solid review of the LOW choices for Nids back on pg. 118)
The Tournament will be 1750, 3 games with Eternal War missions + Secret objectives.
Secret Objectives: you get given 3 missions and choose which one to accomplish per game, you can only use a mission once and each mission is worth 3 VP.
missions are like :-
1.Nominate one Fast attack unit, if said unit is destroyed you have accomplished your secret objective.
2. Nomiate one piece of terrain on the board, at the end of the game if you have a unit inside that piece of terrain you accomplish your object.
etc. you get the point.
So with that as the format, is it WORTH taking a LOW to counter others?
Is it WORTH allying in Knights? or do you think running barebones Nids+ LAN formation could handle it?
My list at present comes in at 1680 I think and looks like this;
Devourer Flyrant
Devourer Flyrant
Rippers
DS Ripprers
DS
Malanthrope
Dimacheron
Hive Crone
Mawloc
Mawloc
LAN Formation
Biovores
Warriors - Stranglethorn
Exocrine
Do you think that is a good foundation for a tournament list or would you suggest a LOW to counter others?
Hello everybody! I've been reading this forum with interest now for about 20 pages and have finally decided to post something. I'm really new to 40k but having done my research I think Tyranids are the army for me. I've watched tons of bat-reps and own the new codex so I know a bit about how they how work and have even theory-crafted a few lists of my own, but my biggest question is why we don't like to ally? From a fluff POV it's understandable but from a competitive one? It seems to me that taking Necrons as a Come The Apocalypse ally could really help fill in some of the gaps in our codex. For example: -Overlord -(Royal Court) -5x Crypteks (Harbringers of the Storm) -Night Scythe That seems like a pretty good allied detachment to me. It's pretty much 20 DS haywire shots, which will obliterate any enemy vehicles (Except for an Imperial Knight with a 3+ Ion shield.) Now I understand that it's about 400 points and that it doesn't fit the force-org charts, but I'm sure that there are other ways to accomplish this that are cheaper and more effective. Sorry if this has been a long post I really think that Tyranids + (Ally) can be a very strong army and would like to see your guys' thoughts on who compliments Tyranids best!
Iechine wrote:Given that opportunity, Id bust out my Hierophant with a helstorm template and Malanthrope entourage.
I'd love to take a heirophant but there's one thing that's stopping me...
Centurions
Boburrito wrote:Hello everybody!
I've been reading this forum with interest now for about 20 pages and have finally decided to post something. I'm really new to 40k but having done my research I think Tyranids are the army for me. I've watched tons of bat-reps and own the new codex so I know a bit about how they how work and have even theory-crafted a few lists of my own, but my biggest question is why we don't like to ally? From a fluff POV it's understandable but from a competitive one? It seems to me that taking Necrons as a Come The Apocalypse ally could really help fill in some of the gaps in our codex. For example:
-Overlord
-(Royal Court)
-5x Crypteks (Harbringers of the Storm)
-Night Scythe
That seems like a pretty good allied detachment to me. It's pretty much 20 DS haywire shots, which will obliterate any enemy vehicles (Except for an Imperial Knight with a 3+ Ion shield.) Now I understand that it's about 400 points and that it doesn't fit the force-org charts, but I'm sure that there are other ways to accomplish this that are cheaper and more effective. Sorry if this has been a long post I really think that Tyranids + (Ally) can be a very strong army and would like to see your guys' thoughts on who compliments Tyranids best!
I think the main reason people don't go down the alley of Allies for nids because come the apocalypse won't be allowed in 99% of competitive tournaments.
But yes, 4 Harbingers of Storm can be brutal and for only 100 points they are a steal. ( I think 5 is over doing it )
Sure, Centurions, but they dont ignore cover and the Phant can run twice in addition to its 12" movement, so a Malanthrope can almost ensure 3+ cover and then go from there.
Im hopefully attending a local 2000pt unbound cheese tourney soonish and will be bringing it for fun.
Iechine wrote: Sure, Centurions, but they dont ignore cover and the Phant can run twice in addition to its 12" movement, so a Malanthrope can almost ensure 3+ cover and then go from there.
Im hopefully attending a local 2000pt unbound cheese tourney soonish and will be bringing it for fun.
That's why people take tigirius!
I don't know if I could risk it. I'd be gutted if my heirophant was cut down first turn.
Wilson wrote: I think the main reason people don't go down the alley of Allies for nids because come the apocalypse won't be allowed in 99% of competitive tournaments.
You think it will be that high? I was guessing it would be about 50/50. About like forgeworld.
Hmm, ok Wilson, thanks for the reply.
So if Come the Apocalypse allies are generally discouraged then it seems like a competitive 'Nids list would have to be Tyranids only. Assuming only 2 resources are allowed that leaves us with a double Cad or a single one with a formation. So apart from Skyblight and LAN (That's the one with the biovores, warriors, and exocrine right?) are any of the other formations worth considering?
I think this idea has come up before but would taking a Trygon as part of your primary army, along with the Skyblight formation, be worthwhile? You would deepstrike it in (hopefully turn 2) so that respawned gargoyle squads could come back on the oppponents side of the field and be useful more quickly. It would probably be in range of synapse due to Flyrants swooping across the board and would provide another threat for your opponents to think about, hopefully saving an FMC with all the shooting that a T6 W6 monstrous creature can soak up.
Other than that what other type of Tyranid lists seem to be competitive? I won't lie; I like winning but I think that having fun and being creative are just as big a part of this game.
ductvader wrote: Adepticon is the only tournament I've ever been in that allowed FW.
And even that was limited.
It is generally an east coast / west coast thing, isn't it? I'm in Kansas, and We've been deciding for our owe upcoming tournament series the list building restrictions. Lords of War were controversial, but everyone agreed that 40k Approved Forgeworld units were in. Even Imperial Knights were more controversial, which is to say, not very. I've got to judge the next tournament, but for the following one, you better believe I will bring out the Malanthropes.
Although I haven't been an active TO for nearly 3 years thanks to a hectic uni timetable, I still keep in regular contact with several of the NSW/ACT TO's (and some other interstate TO's) and help out behind the scenes wherever I can. For a few years I have been doing a lot of list checking and comp scoring for other TO's.
We have also been having quite a few debates about new edition rules and whether we adopt unbound lists and super heavies as standard in events (or how we would adopt them in a way that makes it really hard for WAAC idiots to break/abuse the system), tweaking event scoring systems (your points for battle, painting, comp, sports), new mission designs and whether or not to use the new tactical objective rules/missions in the 7th ed rulebook.
And as I said before, 7th ed has brought super heavies into standard 40k under the Lords of War rules, they have ceased to be Apocalypse only units like they were in the past. Including a lord of war does not mean a game is now Apocalypse.
Also, 'Lords of War' no longer covers just super heavies either. As of last two codices, you'll find that both Ghazghull and Logan Grimnar have gone from standard HQ's to Lords of War choices even though their stats and abilities didn't really change - logan got his crappy chariot, but his standard infantry profile remains the same, as has Ghazghul's. Neither got any acutal buffs for being bumped up to Lord of War status. And we can expect more HQ's to become Lords of War in the future - Marneus Calgar, Mephiston/Dante, Imhotek, the Eldar phoenix lords/Eldrad, Draigo, Vect, the Swarmlord - all of them will likely become Lords of war in future GW publications.
Now, as for proper Apocalypse, it has a lot more than just super heavies/Lords of War going for it. There are other game changing mechanics involved - you have Finest Hours, Divine intervention, Strategic assets and unnatural disasters, all of which usually have global battlefield effects. Apoc formations also have effects above and beyond the standard 40k ones (such as vehicle attack patterns, psychic choirs and high command rules).
To my knowledge, no standard 40k event in AU has included any of these additional apoc rules, hence why I said these events aren't running proper apoc.
That being said, a few TO's have started running proper Apocalypse tournaments with the full set of apoc rules these days. These are usually team events with 3-4 players per side, and prizes are given out for achieving in game objectives rather than a 1st/2nd/3rd placing and so on. Eg. The player on each team who achieved the most of their given strategic objectives, the player with the most super heavy kills, pulling off some epic/heroic move like charging and killing a Titan with your warlord, etc.
FW/LoW is only looked at as a friendly thing where I play, and even then - it's not very friendly. This seems unlikely to change anytime soon. This is fine by me however as I prefer Venom to Malanthrope anyway, and their is nothing else I'd want to use for Nids. Maybe a couple of things I'd like to use for my Dark Eldar, but thats another story.
That quote doesn't say anything about FW models being acceptable or not. It only addresses LoW and superheavies, and additional Apoc rules. It doesn't address things like the malanthrope or '40K approved' units.
Well I've never been to any tournaments so I can't really contribute anything to this conversation but IMOFW models should be allowed as long as they aren't Apocalypse. They're still legitimate models with actual rules but they wouldn't be over powered in normal games, otherwise they'd be an apocalypse unit.
So another idea I had for a competitive Maelstrom of War list would be to bring 180 termagants for your troop choices. It sounds crazy at first but it's only 720 points (not even half a 1500 list) and it would be extremely difficult to kill all of those bodies. They could just sit and capture/contest objectives all game. Backing them up with synapse could be a slight challenge because I think you'd have to go overboard with it; the enemy will probably be focusing your synapse creatures. And then there's the obvious challenge of getting, assembling, and painting 180 gants.
I've been doing lots of list tinkering since the drop of 7th and since Nids have gotten more options. Here's kinda the summary of progression:
First, there was Skyblight.......duh.........awesome.
Then, there was LAN, because Skyblight was quite a tax to get a 3rd Flyrant.
Then, I started experimenting with the Knight Titan Errant. I felt dirty, Nids shouldn't ally with anything other than nids....and I hate the Imperium.
Finally, I think I've decided in the current tournament standard of two sources is my Tyranid-Tyranid list. Behold below!
Plan you ask?
Mawloc...duh
Flyrants....duh
Dakkafexen, oh yes, they're outflanking!
Tyrannofexen are gonna lumber forward behind a screen of Hormagaunts
Malanthrope will be trying to hide out of LOS behind the Tfexen as close as he can
The general thought was to overload the threats on Turn 2. Most armies that have the ability to deal with this many threats are already a terrible matchup for nids. Regardless, a Tfex with its 2+/3+cv/5+FnP is ridiculously hard to remove. Now there's 2. Likewise, there's 3 Fliers and hitting on 6s really invalidates lots of shooting. If you choose to try to remove the screening unit, you're not shooting at other important things!
Ive thought about heavily modifying/creating a Knight to Tyranid conversion so that it looks like a massive bug but uses Knight rules. Id be okay with that in the same way Im okay with a Riptide/Wraithknight being an MC that can be poisoned.
But Im not amazing at conversions at all and even China titans are about $60.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Pretty sure you can't outflank the Dakkafex brood with Hive Commander - you're going to be dependent on rolling MoA to do that...
Yep. It is troops only.
I'm going to an rtt in about a week. It has been stressed to me that this is a "friendly" tournament, and I think there are concerns that I might come in and dominated. My main purpose there is to promote our upcoming tournament, so I don't want to leave people feeling out classed. With that in mind, I'm setting piles of restrictions for my list building to make sure that any games I win do not leave negative feelings with my opponent.
Here are my self imposed nerfs.
1) No FMC's at all
2) No Dakkafexes
3) No formations or Lords of war
So I figured I would go with a hoardish list:
Spoiler:
The Swamlord
+ 3 Tyrant Guard
3 Hive Guard <- need something to pop vehicles
Venom
Venom <- My 2 Malan's should arrive on Tuesday, but I won't have them painted in time
It is the highest model count I've ever tried to run in a 2.5 hours per round tourney game. It is fairly light on synapse, but Swarmlord essentially counts as two in a list with this many tarpits.
I lose a brood of Gargoyles and the Carnifexes, but gain a bullet magnet while 4 Flyrants go airborne to get to troop killing. Ive got tons of tyranid bits to convert a Knight, but it'd have to really look good and not mechanical, which on an all mechanical model is tricky to say the least.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Pretty sure you can't outflank the Dakkafex brood with Hive Commander - you're going to be dependent on rolling MoA to do that...
Yeah, I believe that Hive Commander is one Troops choice...It's crazy, but you could use Stealers to Outflank... As long as you have plenty of other threats, they just might live to contact, you might want to splurge on a Broodlord as well...don't worry they'll never convict you, insanity defense!
DarkStarSabre wrote: Pretty sure you can't outflank the Dakkafex brood with Hive Commander - you're going to be dependent on rolling MoA to do that...
Yeah, I believe that Hive Commander is one Troops choice...It's crazy, but you could use Stealers to Outflank... As long as you have plenty of other threats, they just might live to contact, you might want to splurge on a Broodlord as well...don't worry they'll never convict you, insanity defense!
Genestealers have outflank without needing Hive Commander. Infiltrate confers outflank.
Unless there is something pinnable (Guard, Orks), The broodlord doesn't add as much survivability to your Genestealers as 4 more Stealers.
If you want to outflank something Devil Gants are your best choice.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Pretty sure you can't outflank the Dakkafex brood with Hive Commander - you're going to be dependent on rolling MoA to do that...
Yeah, I believe that Hive Commander is one Troops choice...It's crazy, but you could use Stealers to Outflank... As long as you have plenty of other threats, they just might live to contact, you might want to splurge on a Broodlord as well...don't worry they'll never convict you, insanity defense!
Genestealers have outflank without needing Hive Commander. Infiltrate confers outflank.
Unless there is something pinnable (Guard, Orks), The broodlord doesn't add as much survivability to your Genestealers as 4 more Stealers.
If you want to outflank something Devil Gants are your best choice.
Yeah, I was thinking drop the Hormies, add 20 points from HC, and buy a Broodlord and friends...crazy, but doable, and good vs some. Heck Broodlord is a fair bruiser, and the Stealers give him extra wounds... And it gives you possible Synapse in the backfield (Dominion).
I'm going to an rtt in about a week. It has been stressed to me that this is a "friendly" tournament, and I think there are concerns that I might come in and dominated. My main purpose there is to promote our upcoming tournament, so I don't want to leave people feeling out classed. With that in mind, I'm setting piles of restrictions for my list building to make sure that any games I win do not leave negative feelings with my opponent.
Here are my self imposed nerfs.
1) No FMC's at all
2) No Dakkafexes
3) No formations or Lords of war
So I figured I would go with a hoardish list:
Spoiler:
The Swamlord
+ 3 Tyrant Guard
3 Hive Guard <- need something to pop vehicles
Venom
Venom <- My 2 Malan's should arrive on Tuesday, but I won't have them painted in time
It is the highest model count I've ever tried to run in a 2.5 hours per round tourney game. It is fairly light on synapse, but Swarmlord essentially counts as two in a list with this many tarpits.
You've taken the Swarmlord, the absolute worst unit available to Nids, with a mix off all the subpar playable units in the codex in an attempt to cover your bases (except for the Mawlocs and Biovores)... if you still do well (or even if you don't) and someone accuses you of bringing an unfriendly list, its clear it came down to nothing but player skill. If they are less knowledgeable about units on a competitive level and choose to argue otherwise, link them to this thread. That is a friendly list if I ever saw one. I'd recommend more HG over a Venom though as you seriously need to cover your AT a bit further as anything with say three Rhinos is going to be an inefficient match up lol.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Pretty sure you can't outflank the Dakkafex brood with Hive Commander - you're going to be dependent on rolling MoA to do that...
Dammit! You're right!
Well then...maybe another Mawloc? Drop the Hive commander, pick up another few troop units? Possibly those genestealers?
I do really like taking a Broodlord for strategic protection of the Warlord. A Flyrant as a Warlord is a big liability...
I lose a brood of Gargoyles and the Carnifexes, but gain a bullet magnet while 4 Flyrants go airborne to get to troop killing. Ive got tons of tyranid bits to convert a Knight, but it'd have to really look good and not mechanical, which on an all mechanical model is tricky to say the least.
There are some really good Tyranid Knight conversions out there built off of a Tyrannofex standing upright (those back legs are huge). You need something more than the usual Tyrannofex torso to add the bulk at the top, but it's a definite starting point.
List 5:
1x Wraithknight with Wraith Cannons
1x Gorkanaught
List 6:
1x Flyrant with 2x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
1x Flyrant with 2x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
-----------------------------
Can I say "Ouch"?
I'm honestly clueless as to what to do now. I don't think any of my lists would be able to do well in that environment...
Go Triple Dakkafex blocking a Zoanthrope, make them one unit so you can move weakened ones to the back for wound allocations, it's far more likely to be relevant at this level of points and you'll be focus firing everything anyway. It will also make a Catalyst / Onslaught roll pretty damn badass The scariest list is the second one no matter what you take however
So how about this 1850 list. It would be pretty fun to play, not sure about its competitiveness though.
HQ:
Hive Tyrant
-Wings, 2 TLD's W/ ESG, ESG
Troops:
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
(That's all six troop slots filled)
Elites:
Malanthrope
2 Malanthropes
2 Malanthropes
Fast Attack:
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Total: 1850
The idea is to force your enemy to either target the FMC's, the 180 OS termagants grabbing points, or the shrouded malanthropes giving themselves 2+ cover saves (they'll definitely be hiding in ruins or something.) Either way they'll have a hard time killing all the termagants but if they don't they'll be outscored unless I draw a ton of "Kill and enemy psyker" cards or something. It's just an idea though and I haven't tried it out yet but it seems like a really cool list that goes with the Tyranid fluff, overwhelming your opponents with an unkillable tide of smaller creatures backed up by larger ones that are even more difficult to take down.
So what do you guys think? What would make it more competitive? What would make it even more Tyranid-ish?
(I editied out the points cost of each category ie; Elites, HQ. Is having the points values as a whole category legal here?)
Boburrito wrote: So how about this 1850 list. It would be pretty fun to play, not sure about its competitiveness though.
HQ:
Hive Tyrant
-Wings, 2 TLD's W/ ESG, ESG
Troops:
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
(That's all six troop slots filled)
Elites:
Malanthrope
2 Malanthropes
2 Malanthropes
Fast Attack:
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Total: 1850
The idea is to force your enemy to either target the FMC's, the 180 OS termagants grabbing points, or the shrouded malanthropes giving themselves 2+ cover saves (they'll definitely be hiding in ruins or something.) Either way they'll have a hard time killing all the termagants but if they don't they'll be outscored unless I draw a ton of "Kill and enemy psyker" cards or something. It's just an idea though and I haven't tried it out yet but it seems like a really cool list that goes with the Tyranid fluff, overwhelming your opponents with an unkillable tide of smaller creatures backed up by larger ones that are even more difficult to take down.
So what do you guys think? What would make it more competitive? What would make it even more Tyranid-ish?
(I editied out the points cost of each category ie; Elites, HQ. Is having the points values as a whole category legal here?)
Looks like a fun list. But it is real short on Synapse...if you trim all the Termagants to x20, you save 240, and that is a second Winged Dakka'rant. You also have little answer for AV13+, some Carnifexen would help there. With that many gribblies, why not run "Endless Swarm"? I've posted a list or two about that a long while ago...
I lose a brood of Gargoyles and the Carnifexes, but gain a bullet magnet while 4 Flyrants go airborne to get to troop killing. Ive got tons of tyranid bits to convert a Knight, but it'd have to really look good and not mechanical, which on an all mechanical model is tricky to say the least.
I'd love to see a conversion towards that end. I think I'd prefer 3 Dakkafexes just from a fluff standpoint, although you do lose the gargoyles. At least you'd gain Adrenal Glands.
Do you have any quad-tyrant field experience? I'd also like to know how that goes. I only have the three tyrants currently.
I've been running them the past month or so in tourny practice games against the current bike lists/drop pods/hard counters and its been going well. You set up your flight patterns in advance and kill of troops, which is the basic premise. The Carnifexes are not critical and are the preferred bullet magnet, which a Knight would tank better.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Pretty sure you can't outflank the Dakkafex brood with Hive Commander - you're going to be dependent on rolling MoA to do that...
Yep. It is troops only.
I'm going to an rtt in about a week. It has been stressed to me that this is a "friendly" tournament, and I think there are concerns that I might come in and dominated. My main purpose there is to promote our upcoming tournament, so I don't want to leave people feeling out classed. With that in mind, I'm setting piles of restrictions for my list building to make sure that any games I win do not leave negative feelings with my opponent.
Here are my self imposed nerfs.
1) No FMC's at all
2) No Dakkafexes
3) No formations or Lords of war
So I figured I would go with a hoardish list:
Spoiler:
The Swamlord
+ 3 Tyrant Guard
3 Hive Guard <- need something to pop vehicles
Venom
Venom <- My 2 Malan's should arrive on Tuesday, but I won't have them painted in time
It is the highest model count I've ever tried to run in a 2.5 hours per round tourney game. It is fairly light on synapse, but Swarmlord essentially counts as two in a list with this many tarpits.
Loving that list. Please if you have the chance make a batrep.
Go Triple Dakkafex blocking a Zoanthrope, make them one unit so you can move weakened ones to the back for wound allocations, it's far more likely to be relevant at this level of points and you'll be focus firing everything anyway. It will also make a Catalyst / Onslaught roll pretty damn badass
While it is tempting, I'd be a bit worried about what all the Battle Cannons and Wraith Cannons will do to 3 Carnifexes and a Zoanthrope. There's also the huge issue of IB: Feed disabling all shooting capability should the Zoanthrope get taken out early...
Still, appreciate the advice. I'll try a few rounds against my brother (the double Wraithknight fellow) and see how it does. Baring that, I'm probably going to try the Tervigon list or a full blown swarm list with the express goal of running amok with objectives and tarpitting things. I don't know if any of the aforementioned lists would be able to handle a large amount of bodies given the extremely low body count of said lists and the focus on S8+ firepower.
SHUPPET wrote: The scariest list is the second one no matter what you take however
Not to disagree, but what about the second list (Knight + Bikes) in particular makes it the most scary?
Boburrito wrote: So how about this 1850 list. It would be pretty fun to play, not sure about its competitiveness though.
HQ:
Hive Tyrant
-Wings, 2 TLD's W/ ESG, ESG
Troops:
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
(That's all six troop slots filled)
Elites:
Malanthrope
2 Malanthropes
2 Malanthropes
Fast Attack:
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Total: 1850
I love it! Lots of bodies, fairly good synapse coverage thanks to all those Venomthropes, and overall lovely target saturation (lots of T5 wounds and T3 wounds - Tyrant is the only thing that stands out). As far as I can tell, the only problem with its competitiveness (besides the body count and time limits) is anti-armor capability. Once you're out of Tentaclids, you just have the Tyrant and maybe 3 S8 hits a turn from the Crones to crack open AV11+ tanks. Still, that many bodies should be able to hold up for a turn or two against anti-hoard guns and just swamp objectives.
If I had the models (no Malanthropes, not enough Termagants), I'd love to take that to one of our local tournaments.
tag8833 wrote: I'm going to an rtt in about a week. It has been stressed to me that this is a "friendly" tournament, and I think there are concerns that I might come in and dominated. My main purpose there is to promote our upcoming tournament, so I don't want to leave people feeling out classed. With that in mind, I'm setting piles of restrictions for my list building to make sure that any games I win do not leave negative feelings with my opponent.
Spoiler:
Here are my self imposed nerfs.
1) No FMC's at all
2) No Dakkafexes
3) No formations or Lords of war
So I figured I would go with a hoardish list:
The Swamlord
+ 3 Tyrant Guard
3 Hive Guard <- need something to pop vehicles
Venom
Venom <- My 2 Malan's should arrive on Tuesday, but I won't have them painted in time
It is the highest model count I've ever tried to run in a 2.5 hours per round tourney game. It is fairly light on synapse, but Swarmlord essentially counts as two in a list with this many tarpits.
Loving that list. Please if you have the chance make a batrep.
I ran it against one of the Tourney Regulars. It was not a close game. He had a Heldrake and Landraider that I would have never killed, but I had most everything else dead or locked in combat by the top of 3 when he Conceded. I outscored him 8-1 in Maelstrom which will be the basis for tourney missions. He killed 20 Gargoyles 15 Hormagants, 19 Termagants, 1 Biovore, 2 Shrikes, and a Hive guard, so my force was mostly intact.
tag8833 wrote: I'm going to an rtt in about a week. It has been stressed to me that this is a "friendly" tournament, and I think there are concerns that I might come in and dominated. My main purpose there is to promote our upcoming tournament, so I don't want to leave people feeling out classed. With that in mind, I'm setting piles of restrictions for my list building to make sure that any games I win do not leave negative feelings with my opponent.
Spoiler:
Here are my self imposed nerfs.
1) No FMC's at all
2) No Dakkafexes
3) No formations or Lords of war
So I figured I would go with a hoardish list:
The Swamlord
+ 3 Tyrant Guard
3 Hive Guard <- need something to pop vehicles
Venom
Venom <- My 2 Malan's should arrive on Tuesday, but I won't have them painted in time
It is the highest model count I've ever tried to run in a 2.5 hours per round tourney game. It is fairly light on synapse, but Swarmlord essentially counts as two in a list with this many tarpits.
Loving that list. Please if you have the chance make a batrep.
I ran it against one of the Tourney Regulars. It was not a close game. He had a Heldrake and Landraider that I would have never killed, but I had most everything else dead or locked in combat by the top of 3 when he Conceded. I outscored him 8-1 in Maelstrom which will be the basis for tourney missions. He killed 20 Gargoyles 15 Hormagants, 19 Termagants, 1 Biovore, 2 Shrikes, and a Hive guard, so my force was mostly intact.
Did the lord get to mangle anything with all those gribblies holding stuff in place? How did you manage to not get it blown off the board?
Wow! thanks for the feed back guys, it really helps when trying to design a list @PineCone
Well, in regards to the lack of synapse, do you think that 20 toughness 5 wounds, hopefully with 2+ cover saves, are too little? All those Malanthropes holding the termagants together can be fairly tricky to kill. Also, removing 60 termagants would kind of take away form the swarm feel wouldn't it? They'd be 33% easier to kill which is not something I want since I'll be depending on their ability to outscore my opponent. Why not take the endless swarm formation? Two reasons: 1. I would have to take hormaguants, that's an extra 90 points for a unit that won't do anything but sit on an objective (atleast termagants can shoot.) 2. They wouldn't be OS anymore which really inhibits their ability to score.
@N.I.B. and Coredump
That sounds like a great idea! I was wondering what to do if my flyrant went down and I think he'd be a prime target since he's my warlord, but switching out a crone and malanthrope for another one might work. The only problem is that now I have even less ways to deal with AV 13+ with 4 less tentaclids than before.
@Strat_N8
Hmm, I pretty much agree with everything you said there, but I don't really want to swap crones for carnifex becuase they're so much easier to kill.
So overall your input has been really helpful and full of creative ideas that could really help this list out! Thank you so much! I'm not sure how this list is going to hold up in my current meta, mostly because I don't even know what my current meta is Like I said, I'm pretty new to 40k and haven't been to my local game stores to see if they do any Warhammer nights or something. I know one of them always has two tables open and dedicated to Warhammer so if I find a few friends then we'll see.
Oh! I would also like to hear your guys' opinions on the Tervigon. I know it got a huge nerf with the new codex and then again in 7th, but it was overpowered before then so maybe it's still a viable unit? Is there anyway to make it competitive? I just love the model! If you can convince your opponent that its spawned termagants are OS, is it good then? After all, the termagants are exactly the same as any other ones in your army and they're still being controlled by the EXACT SAME HIVE MIND so why should they be any different from other ones in your army? Unless the rest of your army is unbound...I really want to use this model if I can but if it's as bad as everybody says it is then maybe it isn't worth taking after all.
Most AV13 can be killed from behind by a flyrant. The only real problem for you is multiple landraiders. I would take that chance.
One other potential issue. With 4-5 FMCs, and 180 gaunts.... you need to be a bit careful about your flight plans so that the FMCs can go where you want and still have a place to land. I don't think it will be too much of a problem, as long as you are aware of it and play accordingly.
Oh, and I think NIB's suggestion is better than mine.
@Strat_N8 err I meant the Wraithknight list ! My bad.
I dunno, just try the Fexes I guess I'm not really sure, You are playing against some pretty competitive opposition and I don't think it's possible to deal with everything and I think the Wraithknights are probably going to be the hardest no matter what, at least the Dakkafexes have a better chance against them then many other thing I think, maybe Exocrines is a consideration as well. I'm not going to say it's the best list, I honestly don't have an answer for that one lol, but a good suggestion I think
Boburrito wrote: Wow! thanks for the feed back guys, it really helps when trying to design a list @PineCone
Well, in regards to the lack of synapse, do you think that 20 toughness 5 wounds, hopefully with 2+ cover saves, are too little? All those Malanthropes holding the termagants together can be fairly tricky to kill. Also, removing 60 termagants would kind of take away form the swarm feel wouldn't it? They'd be 33% easier to kill which is not something I want since I'll be depending on their ability to outscore my opponent. Why not take the endless swarm formation? Two reasons: 1. I would have to take hormaguants, that's an extra 90 points for a unit that won't do anything but sit on an objective (atleast termagants can shoot.) 2. They wouldn't be OS anymore which really inhibits their ability to score.
@N.I.B. and Coredump
That sounds like a great idea! I was wondering what to do if my flyrant went down and I think he'd be a prime target since he's my warlord, but switching out a crone and malanthrope for another one might work. The only problem is that now I have even less ways to deal with AV 13+ with 4 less tentaclids than before.
@Strat_N8
Hmm, I pretty much agree with everything you said there, but I don't really want to swap crones for carnifex becuase they're so much easier to kill.
So overall your input has been really helpful and full of creative ideas that could really help this list out! Thank you so much! I'm not sure how this list is going to hold up in my current meta, mostly because I don't even know what my current meta is Like I said, I'm pretty new to 40k and haven't been to my local game stores to see if they do any Warhammer nights or something. I know one of them always has two tables open and dedicated to Warhammer so if I find a few friends then we'll see.
Oh! I would also like to hear your guys' opinions on the Tervigon. I know it got a huge nerf with the new codex and then again in 7th, but it was overpowered before then so maybe it's still a viable unit? Is there anyway to make it competitive? I just love the model! If you can convince your opponent that its spawned termagants are OS, is it good then? After all, the termagants are exactly the same as any other ones in your army and they're still being controlled by the EXACT SAME HIVE MIND so why should they be any different from other ones in your army? Unless the rest of your army is unbound...I really want to use this model if I can but if it's as bad as everybody says it is then maybe it isn't worth taking after all.
Well, Synapse Hunting is often a local "meta" thing. I generally expect that any Synapse Hunter will eliminate one Synapse a Turn, and I see 4 sources (not models, units) so to my eye I see "No Synapse left on turn 5"
So I advised adding in one more. That should last till turn 6. As to Tervigon. I don't much like her with all the nerfs she is just plain overpriced. I agree that the spawn should be the same as the detachment she is in (and so normally OS) but nerfing Nids, is just what cool people do. I used to suggest "no more than one", now? Can't say I'd suggest one.
If you don't want to trim the gribblies, then I suggest you find the points elsewhere, so you can add one in (Winged Dakka'rant)
Troops:
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
30 Termagants
(That's all six troop slots filled)
Elites:
Malanthrope
Malanthrope
2 Malanthropes
Fast Attack:
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Total: 1850
Ok, I switched out a malanthrope and a crone for another flyrant, giving me more synapse for the two crones.
@Pinecone
Ok, I see what you're saying there. The change that I made to the list above is kinda a double edged sword though. It adds in another source of synapse, hopefully takes some of the pressure off my warlord, but it also makes the malanthropes more vulnerable. Darn! That really sucks about the Tervigons. :( Oh well, maybe I can find a way.
@Coredump
Thanks for the advice! I'd never really thought about flight plans before but it makes a lot of sense and I'll definitely make sure I'm paying attention to it.
So with this list, what do you guys think is more important to take down first; Anti-Air, Anti-MC, or Anti-Infantry. I'm kind of torn between Anti-Infantry and anti-Air. Unless I'm facing cover-save-ignoring opponents I'm not to worried about my Malanthropes, but I guess a wraith knight could ID them.
I would tend to target anti-air first. But.... it also depends on how easy a target is, and how much of it he has.
Glass cannons tend to get targetted first, since it is easy to kill, and greatly reduces his offensive output. But being able to kill a medium-killy target is often better than just wounding a high-killy target.
coredump wrote: I would tend to target anti-air first. But.... it also depends on how easy a target is, and how much of it he has.
Glass cannons tend to get targetted first, since it is easy to kill, and greatly reduces his offensive output. But being able to kill a medium-killy target is often better than just wounding a high-killy target.
So I guess my answer is... it depends.
Alright, that's an answer I can accept
So now that I have a list that seems to be ok I can get to the "fun" part. *Looks at the 180 termagants*
Oh! I would also like to hear your guys' opinions on the Tervigon. I know it got a huge nerf with the new codex and then again in 7th, but it was overpowered before then so maybe it's still a viable unit? Is there anyway to make it competitive? I just love the model!
I still like my two Tervigons, though unfortunately their spawning ability is disproportionately feared at our gaming group and as such they tend to get targeted first to deny spawns. I think the best way to run them now without tailoring a list specifically for them is probably with Electroshock Grubs and Crushing Claws to act as a walker deterrent. Apart from that, they have generally seemed to work best for me in a list with a lot of T6 wounds and either a lot of gunbeasts that don't particularly want to get into melee or in a list with a lot of deepstriking threats that need something to both start on the board and oversee "friendly" objectives.
Boburrito wrote: If you can convince your opponent that its spawned termagants are OS, is it good then?
It shouldn't really require any convincing. The exact rule states:
page 48, Tyranid Codex wrote:
A unit spawned by a Tervigon is identical in every way to a Termagant unit chosen from the Troops section of the army list, and is treated as such for all mission special rules.
Emphasis mine. I'm not sure about the wording on the Portaglyph, but the various conjuration powers lack the specification of their summons being identical to their FoC equivalent (they only give the book to find the rules from) and as such said units are "slotless" while spawned Termagants are specifically declared to be identical to a troop Termagant in all respects. Ergo, I would think that would mean in a battle forged list they have objective secured as without it they are not identical to a unit of Termagants chosen as a troop choice.
SHUPPET wrote: @Strat_N8 err I meant the Wraithknight list ! My bad.
I dunno, just try the Fexes I guess I'm not really sure, You are playing against some pretty competitive opposition and I don't think it's possible to deal with everything and I think the Wraithknights are probably going to be the hardest no matter what, at least the Dakkafexes have a better chance against them then many other thing I think, maybe Exocrines is a consideration as well. I'm not going to say it's the best list, I honestly don't have an answer for that one lol, but a good suggestion I think
Ah ok! That makes much more sense. I do know of a way to reliably destroy Wraithknights from experience, main issue is just that the counter isn't quite TAC. Basically, a melee flying Tyrant (Bonesword/Lash Whip, Scything Talons, Toxin) + tarpit absolutely wrecks them, as the Tyrant swings first thanks to the Lash Whip and it has enough attacks that even if it doesn't ID them outright it will still critically damage them. The tarpit insures the Wraithknights can't gang up on the Tyrant and keeps them from being able to shoot on the turn the Tyrant is on the ground. Main problem is, that particular Tyrant configuration is only really good against other monsters and certain characters. He can't do anything to vehicles really, let alone a Knight or flyer.
Yea, and that's what I meant by no matter what, I don't think you can cover everything effectively, and the Wraithknights will always be a problem unless you bring something extremely focused like that. Wraithknights are something I generally just tarpit, I can't see an efficient way of dealing with them at 500 pts... Maybe someone else can help you :/
SHUPPET wrote: Yea, and that's what I meant by no matter what, I don't think you can cover everything effectively, and the Wraithknights will always be a problem unless you bring something extremely focused like that. Wraithknights are something I generally just tarpit, I can't see an efficient way of dealing with them at 500 pts... Maybe someone else can help you :/
Well, if it helps at all I am more scared of the Imperial Knights than the Wraithknights. Against the Wraithknights I can at least keep it busy a few turns with some form of Gaunts, but the Imperial Knight... well, to put it bluntly the last time I fought Knights I was up against 4 of them and only managed to do 1 HP the entire game before getting tabled.
I was going to suggest 3 Crones, it's n autowin vs the mech comps, Vektor Strikes for the Wraithknights (you'll still probably lose but meh), however, it's an auto lose vs the Tyrants
Automatically Appended Next Post: I can't see a way of building TAC it's going to be coinflippy as far as the match ups go in my opinion, unless someone a little more insightful than I can see a better way to deal with WKs without sacrificing AT,. I'd just play for the Odds, most of them are rolling mech, build for AT.
They will never ever make it to CC with a WK, and they can do nothing against the Flyrant/Storm Raven match up except sit there and die. To be honest, Dakkafexes will have the same result, both are an auto lose to the WK unless he messes up, but at least they can shoot down Flyers really well, and at least Crones can reliably ace mech in comparison to Stonecrushers who still suffer mobility and damage application issues. Stonecrushers actually aren't a bad suggestion however, if it's a smaller board they stand a better chance of getting an assault off and they can gak on both mek and WKs. I think you could give them a go, unfortunately they are kind of all or nothing, take 1 and it will get shot down, you have to accept that the Flyer match up is going to be a loss, making it no less coinflippy in the end than 3 Harpys by trading off Flyer coverage for WK coverage, and even then doing AT probably less reliably than the Cromes and performing much worse against the bikes, and any other infantry that might show up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I do enjoy this conundrum but as it stands I'm unconvinced that there is a way to build TAC in a manner that can at least compete against every opponent at that setting.
Might be worth mentioning that any Tyrant configuration won't be striking first against anyone sensible opponent, as all he has to do is see you are running a decked out melee Flyrant and stick to area terrain to force the Tyrant to hit last. He still may come out on top however.
In regards to the Wraithknight discussion....I believe that as a Tyranid player, they are a large thorn.
Typically, when fielded in conjunction with Wave Serpents, they are problem because we NEED to deal with the OS transports and the contents, whereas the WK are neither important to most missions or game-breakingly powerful....HOWEVER, when a WK 1 hit kills your Flyrant Turn 1 they shift the game (which is already in Eldar's favor) even more so.
I am of the belief that they need to be ignored. What's they're typical kit, the Sun cannon? 2 shots and 6's ID? Make sure you're in cover with your bigguns or give them nothing else to shoot i.e. if they're shooting at Fliers, chances are better than they're wasting their firepower.
As SHUPPET said, the best way to deal with them is to tarpit them. A small unit of gants in synapse should do just fine. You could try to be more aggressive and psychic scream them to death with Flyrants, but then you're not handling their more important threats...
Just don't be silly and keep their targets in cover, preferably with a Malanthrope/Venomthrope nearby.
A Barbed Hierodule arrived in the mail today. I cleaned the flash and mold lines, and got ready to assemble it, but I'm not sure exactly how to go about it. I have several options.
1) I could magnetize the arms so that I could sub in a 2nd set of Scything Talons, and a 5 part devourer conversion, so that I could swap it between a Barbed and a Scythed Hierodule, even though the Scythed version sucks, It appears easier than expected to magnetize for converting. Has anyone Done this? 2) I could magnetize the Feet to the base. This is for storage. The base is massive, and doesn't fit in my current storage solutions. If I take the base off, I can lay the Hierodule sidways, and he will fit. The problem is, the feet are modelled to fit perfectly to the base, and any attempt to magnetize with sufficiently strong magnets would do quite a bit of damage, and require some green stuff. Thoughts? 3) I could magnetize the legs at the knees. If I glue the leg below the knee to the base, then I can magnetize the Knees allowing me to easily store the beastie. However, doing so means the base has become more onerous to transport because it sticks up more. (already got a permanently mounted ripper). 4) I could glue the thing together, and find a new transport option for it.
I would really appreciate some advice and thoughts from experienced Hierodule owners. What sort of transport solution do you have for your Hierodule? Has anyone tried Magnetizing the Hierodule for conversion between types?
tag8833 wrote: A Barbed Hierodule arrived in the mail today. I cleaned the flash and mold lines, and got ready to assemble it, but I'm not sure exactly how to go about it. I have several options.
1) I could magnetize the arms so that I could sub in a 2nd set of Scything Talons, and a 5 part devourer conversion, so that I could swap it between a Barbed and a Scythed Hierodule, even though the Scythed version sucks, It appears easier than expected to magnetize for converting. Has anyone Done this?
2) I could magnetize the Feet to the base. This is for storage. The base is massive, and doesn't fit in my current storage solutions. If I take the base off, I can lay the Hierodule sidways, and he will fit. The problem is, the feet are modelled to fit perfectly to the base, and any attempt to magnetize with sufficiently strong magnets would do quite a bit of damage, and require some green stuff. Thoughts?
3) I could magnetize the legs at the knees. If I glue the leg below the knee to the base, then I can magnetize the Knees allowing me to easily store the beastie. However, doing so means the base has become more onerous to transport because it sticks up more. (already got a permanently mounted ripper).
4) I could glue the thing together, and find a new transport option for it.
I would really appreciate some advice and thoughts from experienced Hierodule owners. What sort of transport solution do you have for your Hierodule? Has anyone tried Magnetizing the Hierodule for conversion between types?
Sorry, I have no experience, but want to toss in 2 cents anyway. Because you plan to do a fair bit of work anyway, one thing I've done, that I'm happy with, is magnet mounting Rippers to the base of my Big Bugs. I use them as Wound counters, rather than laying dice next to things, I remove Rippers from the base.
tag8833 wrote: A Barbed Hierodule arrived in the mail today. I cleaned the flash and mold lines, and got ready to assemble it, but I'm not sure exactly how to go about it. I have several options.
Spoiler:
1) I could magnetize the arms so that I could sub in a 2nd set of Scything Talons, and a 5 part devourer conversion, so that I could swap it between a Barbed and a Scythed Hierodule, even though the Scythed version sucks, It appears easier than expected to magnetize for converting. Has anyone Done this?
2) I could magnetize the Feet to the base. This is for storage. The base is massive, and doesn't fit in my current storage solutions. If I take the base off, I can lay the Hierodule sidways, and he will fit. The problem is, the feet are modelled to fit perfectly to the base, and any attempt to magnetize with sufficiently strong magnets would do quite a bit of damage, and require some green stuff. Thoughts?
3) I could magnetize the legs at the knees. If I glue the leg below the knee to the base, then I can magnetize the Knees allowing me to easily store the beastie. However, doing so means the base has become more onerous to transport because it sticks up more. (already got a permanently mounted ripper).
4) I could glue the thing together, and find a new transport option for it.
I would really appreciate some advice and thoughts from experienced Hierodule owners. What sort of transport solution do you have for your Hierodule? Has anyone tried Magnetizing the Hierodule for conversion between types?
Sorry, I have no experience, but want to toss in 2 cents anyway. Because you plan to do a fair bit of work anyway, one thing I've done, that I'm happy with, is magnet mounting Rippers to the base of my Big Bugs. I use them as Wound counters, rather than laying dice next to things, I remove Rippers from the base.
Pretty good idea. I'm a little tempted to steal it. It would be a fair amount of work, but is certainly a great wound counter. As soon as I get my Malan's, and Barbie painted, and My Tervigon-to-Knight conversion done, I think I'll give it a shot. I would want at least 3mm magnets so that they don't fall off.
tag8833 wrote: A Barbed Hierodule arrived in the mail today. I cleaned the flash and mold lines, and got ready to assemble it, but I'm not sure exactly how to go about it. I have several options.
Spoiler:
1) I could magnetize the arms so that I could sub in a 2nd set of Scything Talons, and a 5 part devourer conversion, so that I could swap it between a Barbed and a Scythed Hierodule, even though the Scythed version sucks, It appears easier than expected to magnetize for converting. Has anyone Done this?
2) I could magnetize the Feet to the base. This is for storage. The base is massive, and doesn't fit in my current storage solutions. If I take the base off, I can lay the Hierodule sidways, and he will fit. The problem is, the feet are modelled to fit perfectly to the base, and any attempt to magnetize with sufficiently strong magnets would do quite a bit of damage, and require some green stuff. Thoughts?
3) I could magnetize the legs at the knees. If I glue the leg below the knee to the base, then I can magnetize the Knees allowing me to easily store the beastie. However, doing so means the base has become more onerous to transport because it sticks up more. (already got a permanently mounted ripper).
4) I could glue the thing together, and find a new transport option for it.
I would really appreciate some advice and thoughts from experienced Hierodule owners. What sort of transport solution do you have for your Hierodule? Has anyone tried Magnetizing the Hierodule for conversion between types?
Sorry, I have no experience, but want to toss in 2 cents anyway. Because you plan to do a fair bit of work anyway, one thing I've done, that I'm happy with, is magnet mounting Rippers to the base of my Big Bugs. I use them as Wound counters, rather than laying dice next to things, I remove Rippers from the base.
Pretty good idea. I'm a little tempted to steal it. It would be a fair amount of work, but is certainly a great wound counter. As soon as I get my Malan's, and Barbie painted, and My Tervigon-to-Knight conversion done, I think I'll give it a shot. I would want at least 3mm magnets so that they don't fall off.
Word, I keep a metal ruler to stick them to, so I don't lose 'em.
Sorry I've been out for a while. To make it up, here is a battle report using the new Dimachaeron. This was a practice game for Celesticon, a 1500 RTT in our area. In this matchup, I went up against Jamie and his dreaded Farsight-bomb. Now Jamie has not been able to beat me yet, but he did manage to make it into Team Zero Comp by beating one of their team members. I was actually the newest member of Team Zero Comp after beating Reece and his triple Imperial Knight Adamantine Lance army....and then the very next day, Jamie went over to Frontline Gaming and beat another team member to become the newest (and youngest) member. In any case, the last time we played, I was able to soundly beat his Farsight-bomb with Skyblight bugs. However, even that battle was a struggle and I didn't have very much left afterwards. Also, that was at 1850. Now we are playing at 1500 and I am not running Skyblight, but the Dimachaeron instead. So this should be interesting. Does Jamie finally have what it takes to beat down my bugs? We shall see....
7x Bodyguards - 3x2 Fusions, 3x2 Plasmas, Target Locks, 1 "Buffsuit" with a bunch of upgrades, lots of Marker Drones
Riptide - Ion Accelerator, TL-Fusions, Early Warning Override, Stimulant Injector
Riptide - Ion Accelerator, TL-Fusions, Early Warning Override, Stimulant Injector
Thank goodness I am going 1st! Against an alpha-strike army like Farsight Tau, I could potentially lose 2 or maybe even 3 flyrants had he gone 1st! We were practicing for Celesticon, which uses BAO missions. And in the BAOFAQ, a character (like Shadowsun) can confer his/her Infiltrate ability to the entire unit. Thus, had Jamie gone first, he would have infiltrated his bomb and with Monster Hunter, Ignore Cover and Twin-linked shooting, could have potentially killed 2 FMC's in 1 turn! Then use the markerdrones on the bomb to light up a 3rd FMC for his 2 riptides to shoot down. This is one of the reasons why I think the BAO should redact their FAQ rules change with regards to Infiltrate - giving Infiltrate to a shooty deathstar like the Farsight-bomb or Centurionstar just makes them too darn good. As if shooting wasn't strong enough in 7th!
Getting back on topic, my strategy is to win this game in the Movement phase. I will basically limit my opponent's ability to advance his guys and take control of the middle. Basically, it is the same strategy I have been using ever since 5th Edition - my strategy of Positional Dominance. In an objectives-based scenario, you have the advantage if you can control the movement of your opponent. You play aggressively, box him in to limit his movement, and while he is busy dealing with your "distraction" units, you swarm the objectives. Thus, on Turn 5, you are already entrenched onto those objectives and his units are out of position, even if he does manage to take out all of your "distraction" units.
Unfortunately, I lost my notes with regards to the Maelstrom objectives and my psychic powers so I will only go over them briefly. Basically, I get 2 Catalysts and some other powers for my flyrants.
I deploy aggressively forwards, with the Malanthrope in the bastion. Rippers and mawloc in reserves to deepstrike.
Jamie infiltrates his bomb into area terrain (played the hill as 5+ cover + difficult terrain). His kroots will be walking in from his board edge.
I push my flyrants aggressively forwards. The rest of my army advances, with the Malanthrope disembarking from the bastion.
I make a mistake here. Should have trailed with my Warlord flyrant, but instead, I have him positioned forwards. Rear flyrant casts Catalyst on the Dimachaeron. Forwards flyrant casts Catalyst on my Warlord....and fails! Doh!!!
Here I make another mistake. I forget to use my Electroshock Grubs (Tyranid temp weapon)! Currently, the bomb is getting 2+ cover. Had I used my egrubs, I would have denied his marker drones that 2+ cover and probably would have taken them all out!
Alas, 36 twin-linked S6 shots manages to take out only 3 measley drones.
Tau 1
Riptides jockey for better shooting positions. They both pass their nova charges.
Farsight and his unit barely moves. He opts to go Monster Hunter instead of Stubborn for his Puretide Neurochip.
He then focuses the entire bomb onto my Warlord and takes him down, nabbing both First Blood and Slay the Warlord thanks to the lack of FNP on my Warlord and the fact that he was within plasma double-shot range. Should have trailed with my Warlord instead.
Riptides go after my gargoyles but manage only to kill 4.
Tyranids 2
2 rippers come in. 1 unit deepstrikes onto my opponent's objective (which is also one of the Maelstrom objectives this turn).
I learned my lesson from our last game. I need to kill his buffsuit pronto! The game becomes just so much easier after that. First I attempt to kill him with my mawloc. However, fortunately for my opponent, my mawloc scatters, though I do manage to kill 2 suits with him.
Ok, now to plan B. Actually, plan B was my plan A all along. I swoop my flyrant across so that his buffsuit (the suit in black) is the closest model to it. Heh heh....I am going to do evil things to him.
The rest of my army advances. Jamie then intercepts with his riptides and takes off 2 Wounds from my mawloc.
This turn, I remember to use my egrubs. After shooting, his bomb is decimated. He's got both characters still, but he loses another 2 suits - including the most important one, his buffsuit - as well as most of his markerdrones.
Tau 2
Both kroots come in. Jamie goes after my rippers on his Maelstrom objective. Big mistake, buddy.
40 shots later and my rippers are still standing.
The bomb moves away. Farsight actually splits off from the unit to go after my mawloc. He also moves 1 riptide towards my mawloc as well.
The bomb then shoots at my mawloc and take him down to 1W remaining. Farsight then charges....
....and finishes him off.
Tyranids 3
My last unit of rippers come in.
So now I have a lot of options in terms of target. I could go after the weakened bomb or I could go after Farsight by himself.....
....however, the temptation is just too great. I go after his troops.
Meanwhile, my Dimachaeron (not done yet, a work-in-progress) is slowly trudging forwards. Hey! Hammer & Anvil is the worst deployment type for a ground Tyranid force! But while he is advancing, the rest of my army is swarming the objectives.
After 2 template weapons and 12 devourer shots onto 2 tightly bunched-up units of kroots, I take them all out! Farsight can die another day.
Tau 3
The Tau prepare to deal with the threats at their doorsteps. Farsight rejoins his unit.
That is way too much firepower for a Tyranid MC out in the open without FNP to deal with!
The Tau then jump away from my gargoyles in the Assault phase.
Tyranids 4
However, they (the Farsight-bomb) won't be able to get away. Flyrants are gliding, but it doesn't matter because his bomb will be locked in combat and I've got Catalyst on my flyrants.
Malanthrope gets out of LOS of his riptides and also closer to an objective.
Shooting is pathetic. Both flyrants and the gargoyles manage to take off maybe 1W from the bomb.
Assault is equally pathetic as my gargoyles fail to kill anything and I lose 6 gargoyles in return. Bah!
Tau 4
Black riptide finally starts heading towards my deployment zone. Redtide needs to stay behind because of the objective.
Shooting does absolutely zilch as my rippers pass their cover saves.
In combat, we both whiff. He kills 1 gargoyles and I kill none. I believe the bomb may have been blinded (reduced to WS1) by my gargoyles last turn.
Tyranids 5
I actually assault in with both flyrants this turn. However, I have some major whiffage and fail to cause a single wound (well, maybe 1W to Farsight in a challenge)! In turn, the bomb kills another 2 gargoyles.
Rippers continue to maneuver around objectives.
Tau 5
Riptide is still too far away to assault my rippers. He fires both tides into them but I make my cover saves thanks to 2+ cover from the Malanthrope.
Finally, I wipe out all the bodyguards and break the unit. However, I fail to catch Farsight in a sweeping advance.
The game continues onto Turn 6.
Tyranids 6
Malanthrope goes to support the rippers.
Flyrants shoot down both Farsight and Shadowsun, finally giving me Slay the Warlord.
Tau 6
In a last hurrah, his riptide tries to wrestle the 3-pt objective away from my rippers but he is only able to kill 1 in assault (and none with shooting).
Game ends.
Jamies has his riptide on a 3-pt objective. I've got the 3-pt, 2-pt, 2-pt and 1-pt objectives. I take the Scouring for 4-pts. I also handily win the Maelstrom secondary objectives for 3-pts. Finally, Jamie takes Warlord, First Blood (my Warlord) and Linebreaker (his riptide). I take Warlord (Shadowsun) and Linebreaker (my rippers and flyrants). Tyranids win it 9-3.
I did what I came here to do. I threw my flyrants at my opponent and kept him locked in his deployment zone (or near it). While he was busy fending them off, the rest of my army slowly made its way onto the objectives. I also started accumulating those Maelstrom points while restricting my opponent's ability to do so by boxing him in. That is my strategy of Positional Dominance. I did make a couple of mistakes early on, but my experience in dealing with deathstar armies overshadowed my opponent's experience in dealing with my army. That, plus my army going first, led to a Tyranid victory. I took this one today, but as my opponent gains more and more experience (he's been playing for about 1/2 year only), these victories are going to be harder and harder to come by. In any case, this was a good experience. The only question remaining is whether I want to take my bugs to Celesticon. I guess we'll find out soon enough. Thanks for reading!
I take him for the coolness factor. However, I did have 1 game against Space Wolves where he slaughtered 4 out of 6 Wolf Lords on Thunderwolf Cavalry. That was almost 900-pts of units that he single-handedly took out. Now that game might be a 1 in 10 event, but you just live for that moment with your dimachaerons.
Iechine wrote: I've been running them the past month or so in tourny practice games against the current bike lists/drop pods/hard counters and its been going well. You set up your flight patterns in advance and kill of troops, which is the basic premise. The Carnifexes are not critical and are the preferred bullet magnet, which a Knight would tank better.
I gave it some thought and I believe that you're right. I think the movement and the ability to soak a great deal more damage, as well as actually being a bullet magnet, merits the model. So I set out today to convert a Tyranid Knight. I pretty much winged it, with a giant assist from a Tervigon kit, and this is what I came up with. It's all still very WIP of course, with a bunch of detail yet to be added for the shoulders that I will be using as it's "brain" for the warp field invul save (stealing both the idea and execution from this gentleman here):
Also worth noting that the guy who came up with this came up with a very interesting fluff justification for the model, in addition to the idea of the mind giving the invulnerable save like the zoanthropes do. You can find the full backstory here:
The notable excerpt that I enjoyed as the fluff justification for why it will sometimes attack its own kind:
"But we have also heard reports of this creature attacking its own kind. We assume the Hive Mind sacrificed total control over its minion in order to achieve a hyper aggressive assault-creature. The gestalt is aware of this and other tyranid organisms keep their distance to the raging hive colossus. "
SHUPPET wrote: TWC thinking they can throw down with the Dima, please >>
I know, right?
What's really cool, at least to me, is that the dimas bring back the fear and respectability to assault nids, even if they do die most of the time before they can even make it into combat. I swear, even riptides were kicking my bug's asses before the dima, which was why I no longer played assault bugs before the dima. Now, wait til I catch one of those wraithknights or riptides. LOL!!!
jy2 wrote: Here I make another mistake. I forget to use my Electroshock Grubs (Tyranid temp weapon)! Currently, the bomb is getting 2+ cover. Had I used my egrubs, I would have denied his marker drones that 2+ cover and probably would have taken them all out!
How does that work? Even if it is night fighting, it is just a 4+ cover. They aren't stealth suites.
jy2 wrote: Here I make another mistake. I forget to use my Electroshock Grubs (Tyranid temp weapon)! Currently, the bomb is getting 2+ cover. Had I used my egrubs, I would have denied his marker drones that 2+ cover and probably would have taken them all out!
How does that work? Even if it is night fighting, it is just a 4+ cover. They aren't stealth suites.
Shadowsun gives the entire unit Stealth & Shrouded because she has on stealth suit armor.
jy2 wrote: Here I make another mistake. I forget to use my Electroshock Grubs (Tyranid temp weapon)! Currently, the bomb is getting 2+ cover. Had I used my egrubs, I would have denied his marker drones that 2+ cover and probably would have taken them all out!
How does that work? Even if it is night fighting, it is just a 4+ cover. They aren't stealth suites.
Shadowsun gives the entire unit Stealth & Shrouded because she has on stealth suit armor.
That is indeed the case. I guess it hasn't ever mattered in my games vs farsight bomb, because I've never played that infiltrate can confer like that, and for some reason the Tau players I see are afraid to deep strike into terrain.
Guys, tomorrow I am going to show you how to play against Imperial Knights. I am going up against a 3 Knight Adamantine Lance formation and I will show you why we will rock them.
jy2 wrote: Guys, tomorrow I am going to show you how to play against Imperial Knights. I am going up against a 3 Knight Adamantine Lance formation and I will show you why we will rock them.
SHUPPET wrote: Might be worth mentioning that any Tyrant configuration won't be striking first against anyone sensible opponent, as all he has to do is see you are running a decked out melee Flyrant and stick to area terrain to force the Tyrant to hit last. He still may come out on top however.
Not always. If something is cowering in area terrain, all you need to do is throw gaunts of any sort at them in sufficient quantities to keep them locked up for a turn. Once tied up, any further assaults made against that unit can use their full initiative (see page 55 in the main rule book). Since the Tyrant has to spend a turn on the ground before he can charge anyway, he generally can take advantage of this and thus keep his initative.
Anyway, here's the list I eventually settled on for this week's league and a bit of a mini-battle report for each round.
Basically this was what I came up with to try to keep myself TAC using input from this thread (very much appreciated!). The Tyrant is chiefly to dispose of MCs but it can still contribute a little bit against vehicles with the Electroshock Grubs, while the Crone covers anti-air and anti-mech. The Hormagaunts in turn serve as mobile tarpits so the Tyrant and Crone can go about their business unopposed (Gargoyles would probably have been better, but the Hormagaunts make the list Battle Forged and are 10 points cheaper per brood which basically pays for the Tyrant's upgrades).
Game 1: Centurion Spam
Tyrant Powers: Dominion, Catalyst, Warp Blast (inexplicably got these every game...)
Tyrant Warlord Trait: Adaptive Biology
Opposing List: 3x Assault Centurions with Melta Guns (proxied by Grav Centurions - trying them out)
1x Drop Pod (Space Wolves)
3x Devastator Centurions with Grav Cannons/Grav Amps, 1x Omni-scope (Warlord Sergeant - Got the one-use reroll shooting dice trait from the space marine book)
Mission: Capture the objectives in the middle of the table (3x Objectives, spread across the center line - standard First Blood, Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker secondary objectives).
Initiative: Tyranids
This game was actually very close, but also not really that bloody until later turns. On the first turn the two flying monsters leapt into the air and Tyrant cast Catalyst on himself and the Hive Crone and Dominion. The marines then proceeded to lite up the Hive Crone and burned their reroll to try to bring it down. Initially they actually did manage to kill it with a failed grounding check, but I forgot to make my feel no pain rolls so it came back next turn (he graciously allowed me to make the forgotten rolls, giving it back 3 out of 5 wounds). The Assault Centurions arrived in their drop pod and shot up the Tyrant a bit, but failed to hit him and ended up tarpitted by the Hormagaunts for three rounds of combat before meeting their end in the form of one really angry Hive Tyrant (he rolled 3 's to wound on the turn he charged, killing the entire squad at once). The Grav Centurions eventually killed the Hive Crone, but otherwise did nothing other than eat vector strikes all game and kill a handful of Hormagaunts.
End result: Tyranid Victory - 3 points for the central objective and 1 point for First Blood (the assault centurions)
Game 2: Librarius
Tyrant Powers: Dominion, Catalyst, Warp Blast
Tyrant Warlord Trait: Synaptic Linchpin
Opposing List: 1x Mephiston (Warlord)
Powers: Smite, Iron Arm, Endurance 1x Tigerius
Powers: Psychic Shriek, Invisibility (rest unknown) 1x Liberian
Powers: unknown (was used mainly as a battery for the other two)
Mission: Table your opponent. If neither side is tabled, the side with the most points left on the table wins. (no secondary points)
Initiative: Tyranids
This mission was not really much fun and was over pretty quickly due to the low amount of models being used each turn. Basically, all I had to do was hide all my gaunts on one side of the table and just dive bomb the Liberian super-squad all game with the Hive Crone. Needless to say, the Crone did extremely well. On the second turn it snatched up Tigerius with its vector strike and more or less won the game by itself, since it took away invisibility and earned a large chunk of points. My poor opponent only managed to kill little over one brood of Hormagaunts before the game ended and probably would have been tabled had the game gone on.
End result: Tyranid Victory - ~435 points remaining at the end of the game vs ~340 points remaining.
Game 3: Blood Bath
Tyrant Powers: Dominion, Catalyst, Warp Blast
Tyrant Warlord Trait: Adaptive Biology
Opposing List: 1x Herald of Khorn on Juggernaught with various Gifts
1x Herald of Khorn on Juggernaught with various Gifts
1x Herald of Khorn on Juggernaught with various Gifts
1x Herald of Khorn on Juggernaught with Grimoire of True Names (Hatred Warlord Trait)
Mission: Place 4 Objectives, 2 in each deployment zone. Objectives in the enemy's deployment zone are worth 2 points. Objectives in your own deployment zone are worth 1 point. The player with the most points at the end of the game wins. (First Blood, Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker secondary objectives).
Initiative: Daemons (seized)
This one was a bit of a disaster, as the opposing army was perfectly suited towards countering mine (lots of attacks, high speed, high toughness, good invul saves, everything but the book-barer had a bonesword equivalent). First couple turns the Haralds mowed down my Hormagaunts and basically got hit with Vector Strikes and templates for the rest of the game. Sadly, his dice were somewhat hot so I failed to really inflict any damage and I ended up with both of my monstrous creatures getting grounded (Tyrant from a Perils while trying to manifest Warp Blast and the Crone from some Pink Horrors that were created by the Warp Storm table). The Tyrant got ganged up on by three Heralds and torn asunder, leaving me with just the Crone at turn 5 when we called it.
End result: Daemon Victory - 5 points from objectives, First Blood, Slay the Warlord, and Linebreaker.
Iechine wrote: I've been running them the past month or so in tourny practice games against the current bike lists/drop pods/hard counters and its been going well. You set up your flight patterns in advance and kill of troops, which is the basic premise. The Carnifexes are not critical and are the preferred bullet magnet, which a Knight would tank better.
I gave it some thought and I believe that you're right. I think the movement and the ability to soak a great deal more damage, as well as actually being a bullet magnet, merits the model. So I set out today to convert a Tyranid Knight. I pretty much winged it, with a giant assist from a Tervigon kit, and this is what I came up with. It's all still very WIP of course, with a bunch of detail yet to be added for the shoulders that I will be using as it's "brain" for the warp field invul save (stealing both the idea and execution from this gentleman here):
Also worth noting that the guy who came up with this came up with a very interesting fluff justification for the model, in addition to the idea of the mind giving the invulnerable save like the zoanthropes do. You can find the full backstory here:
The notable excerpt that I enjoyed as the fluff justification for why it will sometimes attack its own kind:
"But we have also heard reports of this creature attacking its own kind. We assume the Hive Mind sacrificed total control over its minion in order to achieve a hyper aggressive assault-creature. The gestalt is aware of this and other tyranid organisms keep their distance to the raging hive colossus. "
Cool conversion. Now you just need 2 more so you can run the Adamantine Lance formation! I may have to try building one of these... I like the other guy's fluff that you linked too.
For an allied detachment of a second Nid force, do you really only need to take 1 hq and 1 troop? Or is it 1 hq and 2 troops?
Also, I play Tau as well and am interested if most Farsight Bomb lists are using Marker Drones in the bomb instead of gun drones? Marker Drones can't move in order to fire than marker lights right?
Noctem wrote: For an allied detachment of a second Nid force, do you really only need to take 1 hq and 1 troop? Or is it 1 hq and 2 troops?
Also, I play Tau as well and am interested if most Farsight Bomb lists are using Marker Drones in the bomb instead of gun drones? Marker Drones can't move in order to fire than marker lights right?
1 HQ & 2 Troops, because it is a second combined arms detachment rather than an Allied one (can't ally with yourself). You can take as many CAD as you like.
Noctem wrote: For an allied detachment of a second Nid force, do you really only need to take 1 hq and 1 troop? Or is it 1 hq and 2 troops?
Also, I play Tau as well and am interested if most Farsight Bomb lists are using Marker Drones in the bomb instead of gun drones? Marker Drones can't move in order to fire than marker lights right?
1 HQ & 2 Troops, because it is a second combined arms detachment rather than an Allied one (can't ally with yourself). You can take as many CAD as you like.
That is how the rulebook defines it, but I doubt very many people actually play it that way. Most Tourneys, and gaming clubs have houseruled it so that you can ally yourself, and only take one CAD. JY2 plays by the BAO rules which work that way: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/40k-faq/
It slightly reduces the Spam portion of list building.
Some of those Unbound lists are actually pretty brutal, if not unbalanced. Props to you for actually bringing a bound list.
Thanks for the props, though to be fair it wasn't really too big of a sacrifice. So far, the unbound lists have generally lost their games against a bound army and do average against other unbound armies. I can't give a definitive explanation as to why, but I think it has to do with how unbound tends to encourage a lower body count "elite" army made up of "toy"-type units opposed to the "balanced" approach a bound army enforces. From experiences prior to and including the 500 point league, a typical battle forged list usually outnumbers the unbound list (sometimes severely) and thus has more options available to achieve victory beyond wiping the enemy out (which has been the typical result of unbound vs unbound, one army usually dies horribly).
My money would have been on the dual dakka flyrant lists. IMO, that was the list best suited for these scenarios.
One of my buddies brought 2x Dakka Tyrants the week prior actually. It really struggled against the 2x Wraithknight list (neither side was able to kill the other and the Wraithknights were on the ground on objectives) but otherwise did well with the other unbound lists. My main concern with running such a list outside of WYSIWYG (I only have one Dakka Flyrant) was body count. I'm just really uncomfortable with only 2 models on the table and having the extra gaunts gives the opponent something else to shoot at (or extra objective grabbers if they opt to ignore them).
Definitely would have liked having Devourers against that last list though. The Heralds just ate up all my 1-shot weapons without breaking stride...
My finished Barbed Hierodule. Next up is my Hierophant
Very nice work! Looking forward to seeing that scheme on a Hierophant (nothing against the Hierodule, but it always makes me think of an angry lionfish with legs).
I would have liked to see how the Dima went again Knights
I can't see that going well. Even with all of its attacks (no rampage bonus attacks, since it would most likely be a 1v1), it needs 5's to glance on the turn it charges and after that (assuming it survives the return blows) will only glance on a 6...
Personally, I'd kinda like to see someone try the Dimachareon in a stealer-shock list with maybe a Malanthrope or two sprinkled in and whatever other support units they fancied. The biggest problem I see with the Dima in most of the games I have read with one in them is that they don't get very good saturation from other monstrous creatures since they are so much more threatening in assault and as such are a higher priority to disable. In a stealer-shock list, one basically trades T6 saturation for more threat saturation, since nobody wants Genestealers in assault with them either and directing fire against one threat simply allows the rest a turn to freely get closer. Malanthropes would probably be the key to making such a list work though, as they attract the same sort of fire as both units and significantly enhance the durability of both as they crawl forward.
Edit: Just for giggles, here's a quickly thrown together hypothetical list:
Basically has a token Tyrant for air defense and the rest is focused on the Stealers and Dimas. Probably not tournament-grade competitive, but would be fun to play I think (if nothing else, everything is LD10 and more or less unconcerned with synapse loss).
Edit #2 Fixed a math error with above list... Had one Tyrant too many for the point bracket.
On the other hand however, they would be much more likely to get their combat, and will be doing much more against Knights than most of the rest of what we have.
I like your list btw. Although it pretty much folds to anything with a half decent amount of AV.
Some of those Unbound lists are actually pretty brutal, if not unbalanced. Props to you for actually bringing a bound list.
Thanks for the props, though to be fair it wasn't really too big of a sacrifice. So far, the unbound lists have generally lost their games against a bound army and do average against other unbound armies. I can't give a definitive explanation as to why, but I think it has to do with how unbound tends to encourage a lower body count "elite" army made up of "toy"-type units opposed to the "balanced" approach a bound army enforces. From experiences prior to and including the 500 point league, a typical battle forged list usually outnumbers the unbound list (sometimes severely) and thus has more options available to achieve victory beyond wiping the enemy out (which has been the typical result of unbound vs unbound, one army usually dies horribly).
It would easily explain it if the tournament was running objectives or anything that encourages multiple scoring units.
My money would have been on the dual dakka flyrant lists. IMO, that was the list best suited for these scenarios.
One of my buddies brought 2x Dakka Tyrants the week prior actually. It really struggled against the 2x Wraithknight list (neither side was able to kill the other and the Wraithknights were on the ground on objectives) but otherwise did well with the other unbound lists. My main concern with running such a list outside of WYSIWYG (I only have one Dakka Flyrant) was body count. I'm just really uncomfortable with only 2 models on the table and having the extra gaunts gives the opponent something else to shoot at (or extra objective grabbers if they opt to ignore them).
Definitely would have liked having Devourers against that last list though. The Heralds just ate up all my 1-shot weapons without breaking stride...
Well, at 500-pts, you could have given both flyrants toxin sacs to help out against those knights. But if you don't have it, then you don't have it.
SHUPPET wrote: On the other hand however, they would be much more likely to get their combat, and will be doing much more against Knights than most of the rest of what we have.
True enough. I guess my main point was just a Knight isn't the Dimachareon's most ideal match-up, so one probably shouldn't expect too much out of it.
I like your list btw. Although it pretty much folds to anything with a half decent amount of AV.
I'd agree 100% in 5th, but in 7th I'm not entirely sure. With hull points and the changes to hitting vehicles in melee, Genestealers should have no problem shredding their way through most vehicles (both AV10 and AV11 rear armor, since a 6 for them automatically goes from a 10 to 11) and they have the Dimas for back-up against higher AV.
To be fair though, I am admittedly a little biased. The main mechanized force I've had to fight here is my brother's craftworld Eldar and some Dark Eldar. In most cases I've wrecked more vehicles by assaulting them with AG Hormagaunts or Gargoyles than I have by shooting, chiefly due to the jink rule and the low rate of fire of anything not-a-brainleech-devourer.
It would easily explain it if the tournament was running objectives or anything that encourages multiple scoring units.
So far we have mostly just used the book missions (normal and Maelstrom), with an occasional homebrew mission from the league organizer.
Could you maybe do a couple test games with unbound and see what you can do with it? Would be interesting to see how unbound lists fair against top-tier competitive bound lists.
jy2 wrote: Well, at 500-pts, you could have given both flyrants toxin sacs to help out against those knights. But if you don't have it, then you don't have it.
I think he probably did have toxin sacs on them to make up the last few points (I wasn't there for the first week). Still, he was somewhat stuck in the air in order to avoid getting ID'ed by the Heavy Wraithcannons, I imagine he didn't want to risk loosing his Tyrants too soon and was planning on contesting on the last turn (didn't hear how exactly it ended, other than he lost). While playtesting my own list with my brother, I was able to just tarpit the things with gaunts so the Tyrant could swap flight modes in peace and then charge in complete safely.
Basically has a token Tyrant for air defense and the rest is focused on the Stealers and Dimas. Probably not tournament-grade competitive, but would be fun to play I think (if nothing else, everything is LD10 and more or less unconcerned with synapse loss).
Edit #2 Fixed a math error with above list... Had one Tyrant too many for the point bracket.
I like this list a lot, and not just because it's trying to prove that assault isn't dead. But the timing of the inevitable turn 2 assaults from the infiltrating stealers might be too far advanced from the rest of the force, leading to easier target priority. Part of me thinks that stealers would work best in a turn 2 Maximum Threat Overload list. That being said, it's not often that 3 Dimas will be able to get to combat relatively unmolested, and with the support of the Malanthropes you can almost believe that it's possible.
I'm going to an rtt in about a week. It has been stressed to me that this is a "friendly" tournament, and I think there are concerns that I might come in and dominated. My main purpose there is to promote our upcoming tournament, so I don't want to leave people feeling out classed. With that in mind, I'm setting piles of restrictions for my list building to make sure that any games I win do not leave negative feelings with my opponent.
Spoiler:
Here are my self imposed nerfs.
1) No FMC's at all
2) No Dakkafexes
3) No formations or Lords of war
So I figured I would go with a hoardish list:
The Swamlord
+ 3 Tyrant Guard
3 Hive Guard <- need something to pop vehicles
Venom
Venom <- My 2 Malan's should arrive on Tuesday, but I won't have them painted in time
It is the highest model count I've ever tried to run in a 2.5 hours per round tourney game. It is fairly light on synapse, but Swarmlord essentially counts as two in a list with this many tarpits.
Loving that list. Please if you have the chance make a batrep.
I did plan to take photos for proper batreps, but I got there and realized they planned to play 2 Hour rounds. Ugh! I brought a high model count list, and I'm not sure my first 2 opponents had ever played 'nids before in the current codex, so it took a lot of rules explaining.
Game one
Spoiler:
It was a book Maelstrom mission (the one where you start with 6 cards). Deployment was vanguard. My opponent was an IG/Grey Knights/ Assassins player. A bunch of units I had never seen on the table. He had a Vindicaire Assassin with 2 Laser Monkeys, and some other Las cannons were in an imperial bunker that my list had 0 chance of ever popping. It didn't do much against me. Killed a few gants.
His Callidus Assassin infiltrated next to my biovores. She killed 2 gants, and put a wound on a biovore. It also screwed up my first reserve roll for a Mawloc, but I rolled a 6 anways so it didn't matter. I assaulted her with 3 Shrikes, and Piled a ton of wounds on her, but she made all but one of her 4++ saves, and then hit an run. On turn 3, a few Devil gaunt blew her out of existence.
His Grey Knights grand master deep struck on turn one along with a large unit of Strike Guard. He scattered, but rerolled it, and scattered even further. That ended up not mattering because he could run and shoot (might have come from warlord trait). His squad killed 6 Gargoyles, and 8 Gants. Then turn 2, I was planning to soften him up with shooting, and then assault him. To that end I move my Gargoyles, one unit of Shrikes, One unit of Termagants, and Swarmlord and his unit all into position to assault him. The problem is, after shooting at him, I took 1 wound of his HQ, and killed 6 Strike Guard, and he failed his leadership (Because of SitW) and ran away making my assault difficult. My Gaunts failed a 11" charge. My Gargoyles failed a 6" charge, and so I didn't bother sending in any other unit. On his 2, he killed the rest of my gargoyles. On my turn 3, I did the same thing, moving Swarmlord, Termagants, and Shrikes to assault him, but after shooting into him, I killed another 2-3 Strike Guard, and he failed his leadership and ran out of assault range. Turn 4, he split off his Grand master from his 2 remainiing Strike Guard, and I had a card to "Kill a unit in assault', and wanted to get warlord, so I moved to assault his Grand Master (Down 1 wound because of It will not die) with Poison Hormagants that had perferred enemy (from swarmlord). I sent 2 Shrikes (one BS + LW) against his last 2 Strike guard. Both units made their assault. The Shrikes whiffed. (5 1&2's for the BS+LW one to hit). The Hormagants made him take 22 saves. But he made all 22 2+'s so I failed to get warlord or score D3 for units in assault.
He also had a platoon of Guard with a Commisar in an Imperial Defense line. My Mawlocs and biovores killed them easily. The commisar died to my Mawloc in assault on turn 4. His platoon did do some work. On turn 3 they managed to kill 5 Termagants on my left flank, and I was an idiot and let them get out of synapse (because I ran Shrikes to score an objective). They failed their leadership, and because of vanguard ran off the table.
Lastly he had a deathstrike. It was in the back corner, and fired turn 2. It did work. 3 Shrikes, a Venomthrope, 10 Termagants, and 6 Gargoyles, and a Tyrant Guard died.
Our game ended turn 4, because we were playing 2 hour! rounds. I won 14 Points to 4 Points.
Game 2:
Spoiler:
It was Maelstrom (the one where you score each other's cards). Dawn of War deployment, and my opponent was a pretty good Eldar / Dark Eldar list. He went on to take 2nd overall. I had really, really bad dice this game, and was very frustrated by it.
He had 2 wave serpents. Turn 1 they took out one Venom, and put a wound on the other. Turn 2 they finished off the venom and killed some Gargoyles. The entire game I shot Hive guard at them. On turn 4, I charged one with Hive guard. I did 0 hull points until the charge when I did take a single hull point. I was upset at the failure of my Hive guard to roll. They were in my list to kill wave serpents, and they failed so big. Turn 3 I gave furious charge to my Hormagants, and they failed an 8" charge with fleet to deal with one. Turn 2, I gave furious charge to a unit of Shrikes, and failed a 6" charge on one.
He had a giant Dark Eldar Forgeworld Skimmer. It looked like a catamaran. It shot 12 S7 AP2 shots at BS4, and was open topped with 6 Wraith guard and his warlord in it. Every turn he shot it into my Warlord. Turn 4, he finally finished Swarmlord and his unit off.
He had a venom. It did quite a bit of damage to my gargoyles, but I got a turn 3 charge on him with swarmlord, and popped it.
He dumped 10 Dire Avengers with a psycher of some sort (spirit seer?) out of a wave serpent. They lit up my gargoyles, but turn 3, I lit them up in return with a full squad of Termagants, Killing 9 of them, and then charged with Shrikes and gargoyles, and finished them off easily.
He dumped 5 fire dragons out of his other wave serpent. They ID'd my Shrikes which had tried to charge the serpent and failed last turn. I shot a squad of Termagants into them. I did 12 wounds but he made 11 saves. So I charged my gants into him. His first round of combat killed 6 gaunts! and I killed only 1 Fire Dragon. However, they were tarpit for the rest of the game.
He had 2 artillery squads. I kept pinning one, but the other was mopping up bunches of gribbles. He also had a back field Shooting S5 AP:3 Assault 2 unit. The biovores dealt with those.
He was committed to playing a gunline so by turn two I was leading 6 to 1 in the mission. But turn 3-4 I couldn't score anything, and turn 4 he jumped out and Scored 3 Objectives, and 2 cards that got him D3 points (Warlord, and Kill a unit in shooting). So it was 6 -9. On his turn 5 he scored 2 more points, but I wasn't able to play my turn 5 (even though the only hope I had to score was 1 for warlord if my biovores killed his farseer in assault. We both had linebreaker, and he had 1st blood so the final score was 7-11.
I had not delusions that I could table this army, but I felt like I could have out scored it, because I participated in the movement phase while he didn't except to put his Venom and serpents in range to fire their guns. The problem was the Hive Guard being utterly useless.
Game 3:
Spoiler:
It was Maelstrom where you draw one card for each objective you control. I was playing against an opponent that I play often, and I knew his weaknesses well. However, he was running CSM with lots of Helbrute formations. He had 9 armor 12-12-10 walkers. On the plus side 5 of those walkers were in 1 unit, and he is a slow player, so that prevented him from being able to table me.
Turn 1 and 2 I killed all of his cultists. Turn 3 I killed a group of marines and his warlord (Chaos Librarian?). I took 2 hull points off of one Helbrute and charged with a unit of shrikes to finish him off. I whiffed. He whiffed. His turn 4. He tried to cast a couple of powers. He cast some nova damage dealing spell with only one success. He had two dice left, and I asked him what he was going to cast with those (not expecting an answer). He told me he would cast Shrouding. So I denied the nova. I didn't really worry about Shrouding, because I had 20 poison Hormagants to kill the marines, and didn't care about it. In his assault phase when I rolled my Shrikes to hit vs his injured helbrute. He announced that because they were within 12" of his warlord they could only be hit on 6's. I knew this was BS, and so I said "Show me the rule". At this point he handed me the invisibility psychic card. I told him "You have to cast this psychic power for it to haven an effect". He said he did cast it. I knew he hadn't, but I didn't remember what his last spell was, only that he cast it on two dice with one success, and that it wasn't invis. I was pretty pissed that he wanted to play it this way against me, but I was up 9-0 at this point so I let him do it. He killed 2 Shrikes, and I failed to strip the last hull point.
However in Assault against his marines he told me that because they were within 12" of his warlord, I only hit on 6's. I told him "That isn't how invisibility works", and then I realized what had happened. He cast Shrouding, and had it confused with invisibility. When I explained to him how those two spells worked, he accepted my explanation, and let me hit on 4's as I should. I killed his marines and warlord.
I don't think he was intentionally Cheating. I really don't think he had ever used Divination powers before this Tourney, but his judgement in believing that there would be such a power as invisibility that is conferred to all units in 12" left me with a "What were you thinking!" moment.
His 5 man helbrute squad worked its way through my gargoyles, and then gants, and then venom and biovores. All this time the number of attacks for helbrutes were arbitrarily changing between 2 and 4. I didn't argue because he was paying not attention to scoring points. After the Tourney I talked to him and realized that he kept getting rage and applying it in close combat even when it wasn't the charge or when he multi-assaulted. I can't believe helbrutes have 2 attacks base. That unit seems like garbage. They killed about twice as many gants as they should have, but it didn't really matter once.
I sent swarmlord into a deep striking helbrute with furious charge, and did 2 hullpoints, but failed to finish it, which left me in range of 2 others to charge in and help out. This combat lasted to the end of the game, and I lost 2 Tyrant guard, and killed a helbrute and put a wound on another.
One final note. The Hive Guard got preferred enemy most of the game. They did 4 hull points to Helbrutes, and 2 hull points to a rhino.
The final score was 14-2 at the end of 4. I won huge.
Final Result
Spoiler:
I ended up in a 3 way tie for 3rd in the tourney (all 3 had 35 battle points). It was kinda awesome because the other 2 guys tied with me were 2 guys from my gaming group that got a ride with me on our way to the tourney. I thought the tie breaker was supposed to be kill points which would have put me in 3rd above the other two that I was tied with, but instead they decided to go with strength of schedule then kill points. I beat two 1-2 opponents, and lost to a 2-1 opponent. Both of the other guys tied for 3rd beat two 1-2 opponents, and lost to a 3-0 opponent. So I ended up 5th out of 16.
The tourney Winner was a Necron net list (2 command barges, 3 Annihilation barges, 4 Flying crescent rolls). Prior to the start, it was obvious who the top 2 list would be. The Necron net list, and the Eldar skimmer spam (that I lost to) were so much more powerful than any of the other lists.
Not to spoil anything (and congrats on your performance in the tournament overall) but that's why "friendly" tournaments are rarely so. Some peope are always going to bring competitive lists (and honestly, why shouldn't they? It is in fact a competition).
Basically has a token Tyrant for air defense and the rest is focused on the Stealers and Dimas. Probably not tournament-grade competitive, but would be fun to play I think (if nothing else, everything is LD10 and more or less unconcerned with synapse loss).
Edit #2 Fixed a math error with above list... Had one Tyrant too many for the point bracket.
I like this list a lot, and not just because it's trying to prove that assault isn't dead. But the timing of the inevitable turn 2 assaults from the infiltrating stealers might be too far advanced from the rest of the force, leading to easier target priority. Part of me thinks that stealers would work best in a turn 2 Maximum Threat Overload list. That being said, it's not often that 3 Dimas will be able to get to combat relatively unmolested, and with the support of the Malanthropes you can almost believe that it's possible.
Don't forget what happens If he gets Master of Ambush. Three infiltrating Dimas... I think I would Outflank one or two Broods of Stealers though, just to place pressure on the other player....
luke1705 wrote: Not to spoil anything (and congrats on your performance in the tournament overall) but that's why "friendly" tournaments are rarely so. Some peope are always going to bring competitive lists (and honestly, why shouldn't they? It is in fact a competition).
Sure I expected it. I did exactly as I wanted to do. I had tons of self imposed list limitations that, and since I was there to promote my own tourney, and didn't know many people, I didn't want to bring my A game and stomp everyone. My living artillery or Barbed Hierodule lists would have won this tourney without problem. I would never bring my list to a tourney and expect to win.
The guy who brought the Necron list got a lot of flakk before the tourney, and quite a bit after. I also think the Forgeworld Dark Eldar skimmer will be strongly discourage for the future. I was happy with my performance mainly because I felt like I could have won all 3 of my games had I traded armies with my opponents.
....Crap, I've been reading their entry wrong then.....I thought for sure though.....
Sorry... 
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Or just one Brood. 
Its always about synergy with Nids. 
The reason I so feverously market Electro-bug Hives is that we have so few answers for 
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Yeah, 
As long as you have plenty of other threats, they just might live to contact, you might want to splurge on a Broodlord as well...don't worry they'll never convict you, insanity defense! 
After all, the termagants are exactly the same as any other ones in your army and they're still being controlled by the EXACT SAME HIVE MIND so why should they be any different from other ones in your army? Unless the rest of your army is unbound...I really want to use this model if I can but if it's as bad as everybody says it is then maybe it isn't worth taking after all.
's to wound on the turn he charged, killing the entire squad at once). The Grav Centurions eventually killed the Hive Crone, but otherwise did nothing other than eat vector strikes all game and kill a handful of Hormagaunts.
